Star. — London, England, 1821-03-01 00:00:00

. . . • thought the Bill of. Rights wrong, be' one would rejoice more than he should to see all his !.,Ever) would be the first.to moae the repeal of predictions proved false, and all his arguments re- Every inducernent had been held out to King futed hy the increasing concord of the two sects.— onsent to the repeal of the Corporation I (The Right Honourabk Gentleman sat down amidst wi ni ini to C The Right Hon. Gentleman here loud a n d general cheers.) vi d Test Act s . „ a d a letter from. King William, in the year 1687, SirJAM ES MACKINTOSH began by eulogizing, i n w hich he consented to the repeal of the Penal in an animated strain, the very eloquent speech al • vs; bat at the same time said , that neither he, the Right Hon. Gentleman who had opened the d e - ' ar die Princess his wife, could consent to the repeal bate. He thought that the Right Han. Gentleman t ithe Corporation and Test Acts, by which the Ca- opposite had imputed to his Right Hon. Friend a a s lics were excluded from offices of trust and power. proposition which he never had advanced, namely-a- A d a: distinction r had been drawn by that great that all the subj ects o f t hi s rea l m, w i t h out any qua- V e atch ` King illiam III.) betwixt punishment lification whatever, had an equal right to power. for religious opinions and an exclusion f: on) political The Right Hon. Gentleman had referred to several ee .. He wanted nothing but the authority of periods between the time of Elizabeth and the Hero cissaWilliam for the vote he should give that night. lution. at which existed dangers to the Constitution. a nt ibere were other authorities still higher than that He (Sir James Mackintosh) entertained no doubt of King William. In the recital of the Bill of Rights, the truth of these statements ; but he would assert, dispensing power claimed by James for the ad- that throughout the whole the danger was; one and o f Catholics to power had been specified and the same. Every deviation from the Constitution, -retied. The Act for the toleration of Protestant as his Right Hon. Friend had so precisely laid down, Di ss enters, was passed in the beginning of the rei g n of w as m a d e on ' a tempora l groun d on l y ; and what the tog William; and in the reign of Anne, an attempt Right lion. Gentleman said, tended only to confirm L t d been made to exclude the Dissenters from the the arguments of his Right Honourable Friend. The feficit of the Act, by a Bill prevent occasional Right Ilonourable Gentleman next referred to the ; con f orm ity. The Bill passed the Commons with much opinions of those great and illustrious characters, 1 dificulty; but being strongly opposed in the Lords, wh o fl our i s h e d at t h e per i o d o f t h e R evo l ut i on.— ' *conference was appointed between the two Houses. Whatever opinion s th ose j ust l y ce l e b rate d men en - On the part of the Lords, the Bishop of Salisbury, tertained in that age might have been justifiable L or d Halifax, the Dake of Devonshire, and Loi•d enough, for then danger to the Constitution did exist. g o were appointed to manage the conrerence, Now, however, the Right Hon. Gentlemaa admits w a xe r guments were triumphant. In the Act of th a t t h ere i s no d a n ger ; but that, he supposes, may 1705, it was declared that the Church was in no dan- not be the case; there might be danger at some fu- j Se. At the conference it was stated, on The part of cure period, and on such possibilities and contingen aeLords, that every Government might impose re- gies of future danger, he would ground the exclusion I ltraints on the admission to offices of trust. A cer- of so large and respectable a portion of his Majesty's ; rain class of Disseaters had been exempted in civil subjects from a participation in the privileges of the roes, from the necessity of an oath; but the same Constitution. The principles which existed at the I pr i nc iple that applied to the Quaker applied to the Revolution, and by which that glorious event had i Catholic. The case was not imaginary, as a Quaker been brought about, were diametrically opposite, to h a d been elected a Member of that House, but was the principles on which the exclusion of the lOnian I lot allowed to take his seat, as, from his religious Catholics is at present maintained—(Near).--The principles, he could not take the oath. If he (Mr. political principles of the Roman Catholics themselves Peel) was asked what danger was to be feared at the had undergone a change. What they were at that time, I resent day, he should say, that should danger result, anybody who was acquainted with the history of the the State might not have the power of recalling the country could not but know. What they were at pre- , concessions made. He w o uld admit, for the sake of seat, the Petition of the English Roman Catholics, pre argument, that none of the • dangers that the re- seined by his Noble Friend, most manifestly declared. grants were meant to apply to existed at the present The Right Honourable Gentleman had stated, that exy; but, in legislating for the future, was it not it amounted to nothing less than an alteration of the necessary to look to the past ?—{Hear). In the time British Constitution, to repeal the Act made in the drug William, there was no danger from the Pope, 30th of Charles the Second, by which Roman Cacho ss,noderthe pretence of supplying money against the lics had been excluded from a seat in the I'arlianrent Turks, it was applied to dethrone King James. But of the kingdom. He would not hesitate to assert, though no danger might exist at the present day, any before the Right, Honourable Gentleman and before more than at the time of King William, still he was the House, that no Statute was ever made under such warranted to look to the possibility of future dan- questionable circumstances. No Statute had ever ger. •He might be told that the State had nothing flowed from so corrupt, so impure a . source, as that to do with religion; but in looking to what had Statute, the repeal of which the Right Honourable taken place in the history of this country, the influ- Gentleman alleges to be an alteration of 'the Constia act of religious. opinion would be easily preserved. tution. That Act passed in 1678. How, he would He (Mr. Peel) had objected to the Bill of 1817 for ask, was the Parliament of that day prepared for that the same reasons as he opposed the present motion. legislative enactment, which was to exclude from the Bathe would a.,k the Right Hon. Gentleman, bad House such Members as professed the Roman Ca that•Bill passed, could it have been executed in Ire- tholic religion? They were employed in the exami• land? and whether the obstacles would have pro- nation of Titus Oates—(Hear, hear)—that abomi seeded from Protestants or Catholics? This Bill had nable wretch, whose impositions disgraced that Par ker reprobated by the great majority of the Cacho- liament and that age in which he lived (Hear, hear). Jigs; and it had been declared by the Laity, that In what state of mind, he would ask, were the slern theyarculd rather continue as they were than accept bers of diet House, at the period when they passed of power on such terms, notwithstanding the cordial that Act? Alas! how easy it was to pass laws, yet xquiescence of the Sovereign Pontiff. He cherished how difficult to obtain the repeal of them. That the so feelings of hostility to the Roman Catholics, as, vilest and the most profligate of his species should be though he had opposed their claims, they bad done able to impose on the House of Commons of that day; jrctice to his motives. He took the same ground as that such an execrable miscreant should be able to king William and Lord Somers, that the holders of infect the understanding of the noble-minded persons aficeshould be Members of the national taith. Were who were then Members of that House, and influ k a Cathehic, and living in a Protestant country, ence them by his detestable fictions, to pass a law, ie would admit that he would be a fair subject of the repeal of which some of the greatest men who inspicion. But if he thought this measure was one ever lived—some of the most distinguished cliarac that would remove all ground of dissention, and es- ters in the two last generations—wee unable to ob sentially promote the prosperity of Ireland, his min. The principles of that great deliverer of his fears for the future would disappear—(clear, hear). country (William III.), who was more calumniated As be was of opinion that such consequences would than any one had ever been, were quite explicit on not leolit, he must oppose the measure. Various the subject of the penal and disabling laws agninst causes 11.1 d concurred to engender :t spirit of religious his Roman Catholic subjects. These principles were snininsity, which he seas happy to see was gradually afterwards made known, and it had been the general wearing away. At the same tima, lie admitted that opinion, founded on the best authority, that atter the there were other causes operating besides difference repeal of the Penal Laws, William would consent to , in religion, and he was of opinion the Bill would not the repeal of the disabling Statutes also, if the Re operate beneficially. He was afraid there would be man Catholics conducted themselves deservingly.— a more emhittmed struggle for power between Ca- Occasional conformity had been tolerated, the prac tholics and Protestants, than between candidates for tice of which would have reduced the Test Act to power of the same faith. He had a difficult task to a dead letter, Unless occasional conformity was perform on this occasion, having so often delivered prohibited, the Test Act was no more than mere his sentiments before in that House; and he again waste paper. The Right Honourable Gentleman begged to a ssure t h e H ouse , t h at i n d ec idi ng upon h a d a d verte d to the opinions of Lord Somers, and this question, the grounds of his decision were by no said his authority had been deemed of the greatest means determined by his connection with any party importance on that side of the House. They did, I or any individuals, He spoke independently of all, no doubt, carry infinite weight with them, among and had not even taken the pains to ascertain what those who sat on that side; and it were much might be the sentiments of others. Ile determined to be desired that they were more regarded on the on this question according to its intrinsic merits.— Right Honourable Gentleman's own side. But how- If the Right Hon. Gentleman brought in his Bill, ever great and illustrious Lord Somers had been, he assured him that, should the People of England, persons had a right to examine and interpret his contrary to what they ought to do, nuke any part principles and opinions. The Right Honourable Gen- against it, he would not quote their sentiments in tleman had dwelt on the laws which affect thelect support of his own. As he had not regarded what called Quakers. The laws relating to the Quakers • was termed the voice of the People in other matters, were the grossest absurdity. It was no loss to the I hewould not pretend to do so in this, because it ac. Quakers that they did not take the oaths which all corded with his own. He would appeal to nothing others of his Majesty's subjects did take—the loss but the deliberate wisdom of that House—(Hear).— was to the parties. The tenets of the Roman Cacho,' If he thought this measure could with safety be lics were not so exclusive as those of the Quakers. adopted, not the whole voice of England should Of all sects, which rose in modern times, none ex prevent him from giving it his support. His own cited greater alarm and distrust than the Quakers. opinion was as he had expressed it, and with the means Their theoretical and practical principles were op af iniuenc.e over others which he had possessed, so posed to the lawfulness of war and of oaths. If those far from being consulted on the subject, lie had re, principles were to be extended, they would expose trained from endeavouring to bias the opinions of any. the State to danger, and render the administration of He had, he believed, been the means of preventing justice impossible. From these principles were de many Petitions on the subject from being presented. rived strong arguments against the toleration of that He had on all occasions declared, Lim; to the delibe- sect. But what was the answer to these arguments? rate wisdom of the House of Commons, and to that Why, it was answered, that they would be found by alone, should he appeal, and in that he confided for experience to be a harmless, a loyal, and an indas adecision according with his own sentiments, He trious class of people—and the event has proved ibeeld bele conclude what he had to say to the it. What was the argument against the Catholics? House, by assuring them that no result of that debate It was that their doctrines were dangerous, and that' would give him unqualified pleasure. He was bound their admissibility to power would be attended with to Mali that those opinions which he advocated might t h e most f ata l consequences . Wh at s h ou ld t h e answer rnail, If they did, that so r t of sat i s f act i on w hi c h b e ? E xper i ence. It had b een asserted, inSt Petition e guild not but derive from the 6mm /1 0 43 : ic e, would presented to that House, that all Roman 'Catholics be tempered by the reflection that it was tantamount held and practised the doctrine of mental reservation.' "a> ection oftbe claims of a great portion of their Was that slander spoken of the religion to which be go' rang (clime-subjects—(Near, hear).—lf, on the 'lon ge d t h e most ill ustr i ous charaCms that flourished the • • 1r sentiments of the Right Hon. Mover in this or any other countrt? Wel oat spoken of ha " l d be triumphant, he -assured•the House that no men like 4r ThOmes.MOre, *fib "(IN 'a martyr to . . . ; ' the open and unreserved profession of his creed 2 . , ! Was that spoken of Fenelon, who was the ornament and the pride of his country and of mankind ? He, would do th. grossest injustice to the religion to which he belonged, if he did not condemn the send , meats conveyed in that Peti t i on . I t was a lib e l no t I only on -the R oman Cath o li cs b ut on Ch r i st i an i ty I itself; and he was sorry it.could proceed from a body of Clergymen. If he were in the House *hen that Petition was presented, he would not. suffer it to dis grace their table. And be could almost regret, on that account, that the records of the House were pre served. But the question was now whether the dan ger to the Church of Ireland was more or less by the repeal of those degrading laws? In his opinion the danger, if any could be supposed to exist, would be greatly diminished by the adop tion of conciliatory mea sures. In opening to theCatho l lics all theoffices of State, would be found the best security that they would not conspire against the constitution of Church or State. Whence, he would ask, arose the revolt of the Roman Catholics in Ireland, in IE4I, but from the cruel and unrelenting Administration of the Chief Governor, ,Strafford ? Whence originated the Popish plots in the time of James or Charles the Second, who was himself the real conspirator? They did not originate within. the walls of that or the other House of Parlia ment. It was out;ide the Houses of Parliament all conspiracies arose. The danger consisted, not in the admission, but in the exclusion of those who were by right entitled to a seat among them. The night Hon. Gentleman said much on foreign war and commercial jealousy ; but he spoke not of the internal distinctions which ha g ( been kept up, and tended to prolong their misery. One cause of animosity succeeded to another, and at One period the• inhabitants were divided into Englishry and Irishry, ;it another period into Pro testants and Catholics, and, subsequently, into new comers and old proprietors. Why should these badge•; of distinction be allowed to exist ? Ile, and those Ho nourable Friends about him, would propose to throw into the flames and consumeall the seeds of animosity. They would efface and annihilate that odious brand that was stamped on the old natives. They would draw oblivion over all those odious distinctions. His ,Nlajesty, it was reported, intended to visit Ireland.— That he considered a remarkable peculiarity. All his predecessors, who visited Ireland, carried the sword before them. Henry the Second, 'James, and William, made Ireland the theatre of war. William was the emancipator of England, of Holland, and of Europe • —but he was the conqueror of Ireland. A glory more pure was reserved for his Majesty. He would be received as the harbinger of unanimity', and the messenger of the British Constitution. He would not be regarded by the Irish as a conqueror by the sword, as his predecessors had been, but would he received with acclamation, as the guardian of the people's rights and restorer of their privilege. Lord BURY said lie could net give a silent vote on so solemn an occasion. He lamented the exclu sion of so many excellent persons as the Roman Ca tholics of England from the offices of the State; the privileges of the Constitution to which their loyalty and obedience had so well entitled them. During the periods of commotion and disturbance they were never known to be implicated as a body ; and if they expressed opinions on Religion different from the great majority of the People, those opinions were such as the wisest men had expressed before. With respect to Ireland, where the numbers were great, that only argued the impolicy of the exclusion. Mr. D.I3ROWNE rose to speakou the question. Mr. W. WYNN rose to a point of order, and said, the Hon. Gentleman having seconded the motion, might then speak, but having allowed that oppor tunity to escape, he had now no right to address the House. .1 patience in suffering, and moderation, so emiee entitled them to the consideration of the! 116usea • Were they to be told—" It is true we feel for your degraded situation ; we admire your exempla, y con duct; true, we admit the justice of your claims to our sympathy, and to independence; but, if we grant the prayer of your Petition, we must repeal the Test and Corporation Acts?" What a reply would this be to the Petitioners! The Roman Catholics say they are entitled to the repeal of those laws which still aggrieve them, because those pernicious principle-, which rendered their enactment neceasary, have long ceased to exist. Were they to be told in answer.- " It is true, you are fully entitled to the repeal of those laws, for you do not deserve to be vi,ited with their penalties, but your posterity may !"—( Heoe.)— His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel) had said, the situa tion of - Ireland was a subject to which he could not ' refer without deep feeling. He agreed with his Right Hon. Friend, that unhappy country ought to be dear to him. Let him not, therefore, exclude Ireland from the advantages which the present motion was likely to produce. Agreeing with his Right Hon. Friend in his kindly feelings to Ireland, he disagreed with him in the harsh measure he would induce the House to adopt—the rejection of the Roman Catholic Peti tion. Ireland was unhinged in every particular—in this country the distress was loc d—there it was ge neral. The democratic principles of the Constitution in that country produce evils wkich in this are kept in abeyance by those aristocratic principles which produce the safety of the State—(Near, heat).— , Here the persons of property represent popular opi nions and popular feelings. What melancholy results flowed from the unhappy state of society there, he need not repeat. Whence arose those outrages amongst a people proverbially generous ? Whence that want of reliance on the laws amongst a people of all others disposed to confidence ; and which induced them to seek redress, not from the laws, but from the indul gence of their own passions ? Ile could not agree with his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel), that Roman .Catholic disabilities formed no part of the grievances of which Iceland had to complain. His Right Hon. Friend said, that in England every man was for the laws—in Ireland every man against them. He (Mr. Grant) would say, that in the months of Englishmen was national distress—in the hearts of Irishmen un complaining suffering. If .the Penal system be fol. lowed from the first moment of its enactment, you 'follow, step by step,' the degradation of the Irish • 1 character ; hut which, within the last half century, has improved with the amelioration w'iich has taken place. Whilst Wales and Chester owed their liberties to Edward, and Durham to Charles the Second, Ire land owed its servitude to William. That people, who deserved so much at the bands cf this country, was prepared to receive with gratitude and submis sion whatever Parliament might in its wisdom be pleased to giant. He could not but remark on the inconsistency of that conduct, which, while it threw open the Bar, the Army, and Navy, and thus gave political power to the Roman Catholics, would yet refuse those things comparatively inferior , --(Hear). A Roman Catholic Magistrate qualifies by an oath for his seat on the Bench—his brother Magistrate, a Protestant, by the oath which he takes, insults him. The Roman Catholic freeholder takes an oath to qualify him to vote for Member of Parliament, and is in the next moment degraded by that which his Representative is compelled to take. We were told there would be inconsistency in a Protestant King with a Roman Catholic Council, and yet Parliament might he anything, provided it were not Roman Ca tholic. Did these exclusions produce tranquillity?— and was Parliament to be called upon to sacrifice the real interests of Ireland to the technical arguments and visioning y fears of his Right lion. Friend ? There was an annual Bill of Indemnity passed to relieve Dissenters—perhaps one on a similar principle, in favour of the Roman Catholics, might be admitted. They had taken their stand in a position which ,hewed the greatest generalship, the most profound knowledge of tactics; and it seemed to him that Parliament could only stand on the broad basis of national toleration. The only mode by which the question could airly be considered was, by recy,s, ring to the great principles of the Constitution, which declared the highest offices of the &ate open to the lowest of the People—(Hear, hear).-re And, how many thousands of British subjects lived and died in ignorance of those great principles, which had the effect of inspiring confidence amongst the People? and it would be impossible to recite the many nameless ties by which a cherished Constitu tion attracted to it followers. It was their duty, when speaking of the Roman Catholics, to claim for them the benefit of the %hole Constoutien. As a body, acting with and supporting the laws, the power of the Roman Catholics would be great, and would continue to increase, and vice versa. He begged that the Ilouse would look at,the present state of - Ireland —its rapidly increasing population, and the virtues of its inhabitants ; and consider whether it was just that those who partook of the sufferings, ought not also to partake of,the privileges of the English people? He called on the House now to naily the solemn contract that had been entered into at the time when the Union took place between both countries— (Hear, hear ).—fle (Mr. Grant) would ask the House, what meaning that great ! Statesman (Mr. Pitt), who had proposed the measure, attached to the following lines, which he had applied to the union of the two countries The SPEAKER said, it was not unusual for Ho nourable Gentlemen who seconded motions to speak after several others had offered their opinions; but if the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wynne) insisted on it, he should be obliged to enforce the rule of the House. Mr. BROWNE (being repeatedly called), said his Right Honourable Friend did not require the house to come to any legislative measure immediately ; he only required of them to go into a Committee, in order to consider and examine tl.e allegations in the Petition. Mr. Pitt had always intended granting emancipation to the Irish Roman Catholics, and gave every hope of the speedy accomplishment of that measure by the Union, which was preparatory to the former—( hear). Mr. DAWSON opposed the motion, but was, from the continued noise, almost inaudible. He disclaimed having been ever influenced in private matters by the religion of the parties—never made a distinction be tween Catholic and Protestant—and trusted, there fore, his opposition to themotion would not be ascribed to prejudice or other unworthy motives. The Roman Catholics of Ireland, at the present moment, enjoy as great a proportion of liberty as it is possible for men th enjoy; under which conviction, he would op pose the extension to them of political power. He conceived it would be purchasing Roman Catholic loyalty at too great a price, by the sacrifice of the Refigion—(C'orsaiderable naive, and pies' o f Order). He was not surprised at the impatience of Honourable Gentlemen, when doctrines and ()pi ! nions in opposition to theirs were maintained (Ikar). The Honourable Gentleman concluded by saying he should oppose the motion. Mr. CHARLES GRANT (Secretary for Ireland) rose, amidst some confusion and loud cries of Go on, go on, Mr. Grant !" He begged leave to congra tulate that House and the,Nation on one result likely to rise from the present debate. Hopes might now, he trusted, be indulged that the Roman Catholic question had made progress, and this might be de duced, not merely trom the inimitable and brilliant speech 'of his Right Honourable -Friend (Mr. Plun kett), but from the moderation, the mildness which characterized that of the Right Honourable Gentle. man who opposed the motion, but to which he lis tened with sonic surptisg, as that Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Peel) had recourse to stair argu ments as if this question were then, for the first time agitated ; he begged his Right Honourable Friend's pardon, but be (344. Grant) must . say. that he con ceived the line of argnment follow* by him (Mr., Peel) as extraordinarfor I travelled, completely from the question of the Catholic Choicl.c,.. to the re,., peal of 'the Test and Corptiration Acts; -in doing which, however, he paid the tribute of admira tion of his Right Hon. f'riend's dexterity. But what language was to be addressed to the CatlioliCs,.wilo,,,: Non ezo, nec Truths Dalt), parere jobeho. Ntc mihi rtgna putt): ride:mi. ,c kgibw imbz invictz zentes zterna w feeder.' snittant! What, he asked, did Mr. Pitt understand by the eter nal laws of confederacy, which were in futUre to bind those nations, not in the relations of conqueror and. conquered, but in equality of laws ?—( Hear hear). N'Ve prole3s," continued the Ri ght 110 n. Gentic man, " to follow the policy of that enlightened States man in our intercourse and relations with foreign countries; but on his system of domestic policy we have not yet acted, nor will the maxims on which that system was founded be reduced to practice till the inscription on his tomb records the liberation of Ireland —(Hear, hear.) Look at the state of educa tion in that country, and view its natives pursuing every means of acquiring knowledge. These are se curities springing up where they were least ex p ecte d , as if sent by PROVIDENCE to remove a base and illi beral pretext-car). Let us not take advantage of them to, continue the present system of injustice; ...I'll. let us rather avail ourselves of them, as rai s ed up .1