Star. — London, England, 1810-03-23 00:00:00

p P . a suspicion, that these same Ministers might misma. nage and sacrifice the remainder of our regular for ces. He, at least, had seen not only grounds of sus picion, but proofs, ti‘e most unequivocal, of their ignorance and incapacity, and he should therefore support the motion of his Hon. Friend. • The Earl of WESTMORELAND opposed the motion.—Not a word had been offered by either of the Noble Lords in direct justification of the production of such returns. The only topic insisted upon was the ignorance and incapacity of Ministers. They went back to the expedition under Sir John Moore ; to the battle of Talavera ; to the Convention of Cintra; but • adduced no one argument in support of the motion before their Lordships. They contended that his Majesty's Government would misemploy the troops that had lately been sent abroad, without pretending to say how, or where they were to be employed.— They were faithful to their old maxim and practice— condemn first, and then inquire. The Marquis of DOUGLAS supported the mo tion and admonished the House not to entrust any more of our military force to the direction of men who had proved themselves so incapable of manag- ing it. After a few observations from Lord DARNLEY, in reply, the House divided.—Contents 28—Non contents 38.—Majority against the motion 10. EXCHANGE OF PRISONF.R.S. On our return below the Bar, we found Lord HOLL -AN on his legs, arguing in support of *the motion of which he had given notice, for in formation respecting the late discussions relative to an exchange of prisoners between this country and France The question was one which deeply affected the honour and character of the country, as• well as the private feelings of those to whom it more imme diately related. When the condition of our brave sailors, and of our gallant soldiers, who have so long lingered in the hands of the enemy, and in a foreign land, was duly considered, nothing perhaps could be well conceived more discouraging and desolate.— They were at that time of life when hope is most ac tive in the human breast. They had embraced a pro fession which held out to them prospects of honour and glory, and what has been their fate ? For a num ber of years they have now been lingering is capti vity ; and though they may not be doomed to dun geons; yet are ther deprived of what is most dear to men. They are deprived of all intercourse with their friends and relations r -they are deprived of all means of advancing their views in life—they are deprived of every opportunity of displaying that zeal and cou rage for the glory and interest of their country, which promised to be the reward and solace of their ardu ous toils ; and they are deprived of all these consola tions, not foemanths, or for years, but for a dreary uncertainty respecting the termination of a war, of which no human foresight can calculate the close.— Unfortunately such, it is too well known; has long bt..) the condition of our brave countrymen, now prisoners of war in France ; and if any opportunity has been omitted of rescuing them from that long and sad captivity, or rather if every offer of an ac commodation that promised to have that effect, has not been eagerly and instantly embraced, his Majes ty's Ministers are guilty of the most callous and cruel indifference to the sufferings of these brave men, and that neglect and indifference he would consider as among the blackest of their crimes. No doubt for a length of time the charge of this cruelty had been wholly imputable to the enemy. By the most wanton and unjustifiable abuse of power, and by the worst violation of the practice and law of civilized warfare, the Ruler of France, when First Consul, ordered the British subjects travelling in France to he seized and treated a,s prisoners of war on the breaking out of this present war. This unprecedented violence on her part gave rise to the discussion of questions, which threw an insurmountable barrier in the way of an exchange of prisoners. Not only did Bona parte thus treat with con; empt the laws of civilized warfare, but he set up pretentions the most extra vagant and extraordinary respecting the nature and mode of the exchange of prisoners. The Ha noverians, who laid down their arms in Hanover,he wished to hive considered as British subjects, and as such to be exchanged for French soldiers. These, and other pretensions not less inadmissible, stood long in the w y of any arrangement for the'exchange cf prispn• r,. In the admission of these pretensions it was impossible for the British Government to acqui esce. So far, therefore, the charge of cruelty re mained with the enemy. But it would appear that of late the French seem disposed to relax from these pretentions, and to have made an offer of coming to some arrangement on this delicate and important point. How has that offer been received and treated by the British Government is the question which he would now discuss, and of which he was-most anxious to obtain an explanation ? More than once has the -my asserted that he had made a proposition for the ipointment of Commissioners to meet at Morlaix, I ' treat for a bask on which to establish an ex- Loge of prisoners. That proposition the enemy .rts was refused or eluded by the British Govern tent, lest, as it is observed in the Moniteur, that , aociation for exchange of prisoners should lead to negociation for peace. This charge, though made an anonymous unofficial paragraph, carries still Mme weight with it, especially when it is considered it it appeared in the of paper of :he French ,vernment, and that such is the degraded state of press in France, that nothing was likely to appear there that could he offensive to the French Govern ment. But the charge does not rest solely on this loose anonymous paragraph. It is repeated in the )st solemn and public manner in a solemn and (d -ial document addressed by the French Minister for ireign Affairs to the Dutch Minister of Finance.— iming in such a shape, and from such authority, charge cannot be overlooked. If it be not re ttted by the British Government, must not the igma of the inhumanity which attaches to this pro acted disregard of the usages of civilized war now atach to the British Government and to the British Nation at large. And is it possible that Ministers can refuse information on such a subject, in which not only their own conduct, but the character of the ation is so deeply involved ? They surely will not pretend to say that a negociation for an exchange of prisoners is to be compared to the complex negocia don for peace, and that, pending a negociation, it .ould be improper to proceed in any open declara tion respecting the nature of its conditions, or the 4 111 zupty contents On et Lord of *the n formatit an each France the hon the priv diately sailors, lingere4 land, v • well ci They v tive in I fession . and gl( ber of vity ; geons,' mon. ' friends of adv of ever rage prom's ous ttli tions, uncert which utifori bt.2n 1 prison' has be and s comm not be ty's N indiffe that n amen lengti wholl and u violat • the R Britis treats this her whicl of al partt war{ vaga and nove wish such and in th prise was esce, mail of L pret( som( poin by t you to 01 ener appc and char asset men Deg( a ne in at some that Gov the ther men loos , mos ficia For Cor the butt stilt trac Na' can not nat pre pri tiol ti+) - . prisoners; but here Ministers I To Lord Knee's question no answer was given. disclosed can beget no inconeenience progress it may have made. The facts cruelty not only towards our own Lord DERBY supported the motion, and °bar is required than a statement of the - also towards the French prisoners. • ved,that the opinion of the country would be in its proposition vitas made. How it had urge could be made good against , favour, whatever might be the decision that night.— • and what truth there may be in the stand convicted of a most atroci- He then made an allusion to the strangers at the bar, Duke of Cadore, that the British Governmt... —re was something behind in this mat- , in consequence of which to entertain the proposition, or purposely eluded is ._ ...en Ministers were afraid to avow. I Lord MORTON moved the enforcement of the lest it should lead to a negociation of a treaty of Lord WESTMORELAND opposed the motion, Standing Order for the exclusion of strang ers. peace, poor as was his opinion of the present Minis- and contended that there was no similarity between Strangers were accordingly excluded, and not ad ters of the Crovtn, and he thought thcm by far the the two cases. mitted arils during the remainder of the discussion, worst of any by whom this country had ever the mis - Lord GRE Y thou g ht the answer of the Noble 1 A division, however, took place, we understood, fortune to be ruled, he could not bring himself to Lords opposite to him quite unsatisfactory. He upon the second motion, and the numbers were believe they could be capable of such conduct. If read part of the report of the Committee of the ' Contents 29—Non-conteats 38—Majority against they have been guilty of it, then he would not hesi- House of Commons in 1797, and the third resolution the motion 9. . e t pst C o m mittee e,eot edt h b be e a t p t a t t o t h e! e to o l o o r ti o u ir c l e r t i e I n , t o f 0r the t i tare to say, that they had filled the measure of their . which had then been adopted, which resolution pro- , Earl GREY, we understood, then moved, crimes. The motion with which he should now con- I ved, not only that there was no foundation for the cat ‘ i ' se T s ha wil t i a Ch Se ha er v e general oxch . ange.of prisoners between tbii country and ?rung." dude, would afford them a fair opportunity of excel- I charge of inhumanity towards the French prisoners, pating themselves. The Noble Lord then moved an but that the British Government at that tiny- mani- division took place— humble Address to his Majesty, praying his Majesty felted every dis p osition to establish content, - ee , an exchange of . Non-conteuts 40 would be graciously pleased to direct that there be , prisoners, and that it was wholly protracted by the Proxies - 35 Proxies - fa laid before that House, copies or extracts of such 1 extravagant and inadmissible pretensions of the ene- i Total -64 -OS • LIST OF MAJORITY Mity ON n L st O t R e D M G o RE dm y S 'S L MOTION. correspondence, and the dates thereof, as may have •: my. But in order to give Ministers every possible , S m W t. on ood H on ela ho , u t Le, L° Lo rd ril passed between the Transport Board and the French , fair play, and put the sincerity of their assertions to Government, relative to the exchange of prisoners. I the test, he would solicit his Noble Friend to with- ' Newcastle, Duke PRESENT. Lord MULGRAVE observed, that the very ob. I draw his motion, for the purpose of moving for a Pomfret, Earl w Eld et o t n m , o L r o e ti o d od, Earl Hood, Lord Lord jection which the Noble Lord had stated was of such I Select Committee to inquire into the groonds of the force with him, that it induced him to oppose the • charge made by the French Government, or of sub- Liverpool, Earl Montrose,Macclesiel4,Dohe Earl . Boston,, Lard Mulgrave, Lord Limerick, Earl motion of the Noble Baron. Surely their Lordships , milting in its room a motion to the House for ascer-Sandwich, Earl must feel how novel and unprecedented such a motion taming the dates of the proposal, and of the refusal Glasgow, Earl Harcourt, Earl Boston, Lord Sheffield, Lord must be, under all the circumstances of the moment. of Ministers to accede to it. . Clancarty, Earl a toL l o o r r: Canterbury,cbetteßis Bishop op bp Napier, Lord Wellesley, Marquis That House, and the Government, would ill consult , Lord MU L G RAVE would not consent to take the Ross, Earl R timestdloe: their dignity indeed, if they were to institute a solemn matter o u t o f the hands of the Executive power, i n Harrowby, Earl cr ed proceeding in that House, merely to notice some , order to refer it to a Committee. He thought his 1 Bathurst, Earl De Dunttanville, Hereford, Bishop . . , Mount Edgecumbe, Lord Exeter, Bishop loose anonymous squib cf a French newspaper. Be - answer fully sat i sfacto r y ; and in his wish to make snarl Gambier, Lord Salisbury, Bishop sides, the question was a most delicate one ; and, in- it more so, he was ready to say that no proposal for Paulet, Earl Elliott, Lord Cloghex, Bishop stead of forwarding the subject which the Noble Ba- an exchange of prisoners had been refused, and that LIST OF THE MINORITY ron had in view, of accelerating the release of our the arrangement for carrying that desireable object PRESENT ON sotto GREY'S MOTION. brave sailors and soldiers from captivity, it might have into execution, was still under contemplation. Gloucester, Duke Douglas, Marquis • Holland, Lord Somerset,Duke King, Lord the very contrary effect, and not only retard, but de. I Lord HOLLAND said that he would have agreed Stafford, Marquis Grenvi ll e, Lord Ketch, Lo rd feat the accomplishment of the object altogether. It to the - proposition of his Noble Friend if it had been Lansdowne ' Marquis Derby, Earl Essex, earl was still expected that the arrangement would pro- accepted. But the Noble Lord o pp osite, it ou g ht to Downs Lir e, Marquis Moira, Earl Cassius, Earl teed, and that a cartel might be established, and could be observed, bad made no answer to the charge of Spencer, Earl Bolton Lord Ponson t by,LOrd 1. 43-f ocan sf , "tl Ear Ea l a any thing be more unprecedented and imprudent than delay. And as to the other proposition requiring Grey, Earl Lauderdale, Earl Beshorough, Earl Dononghtnore,liarl thus prematurely to drag into discussion an unfinished only the dates of communication, his high spirit dis- Darnley, Earl Albemarle, Earl Carrington, L. negociation ? Ministers held themselves responsible , dained to stoop to what Mr. Pitt had done in 1797. Cowper, Earl Hereford, Marquis for what they had dOne and were doing, and he never I—(Hear, hear!) Lord Holland then declared that THE FOLLOWING DISSENTIENTS WERE ENTgattb whtg. would consent to any untimely disclosure of a nego- ; when he brought forward this motion he really had DIATELY AFTER THE LAST DIVISION. ciation, whit... might be frustrated entirely merely hardly a doubt that the Ministers would have been William Frederick Hastings (Earl of DeinciustoUcre by having been disclosed. Before he sat down, he : able to give a plain and candid answer, and he stagoril Moira) Keith Somerset Lantelowne could not but advert to some observations which had • thought that they would have considered themselves Essex King Derby Wilson (Earl of Cast fallen from the Noble Baron when he gave notice las under some obligation to him for having brought Lau d er d a l e Hillsborourt (Mar- sills) of his present motion. It so happened that he was 1 the subject tinder discussion. But the manner in Lucan quis of Downshire) Vassal!, Holland Cowper not in the House at she time, nor did he indeed I which it had been me t raised a vehement p resum p - Albemarle Rosslyis Spencer Greyrt Du Dutton (Marquis of Ponsonby, Lord expect that the Noble Lord could ever have se- I tion that they themselves were conscious that there Carysfo Douglas) poasonby (Earl of riously thought of bringing forward such a mo - I existed matter of most serious charge against them. Bolton Bessborough) tion. It appeared, however, that in giving' notice I —They might, perhaps, lull themselves in security Grenville Carrington of this motion, the Noble Baron had indulged an I from their hopes of a favourable vote from the House, _ observation respecting him, and the cause of his • but the country would not be satisfied. But he would HOUSE OF CoMMONS. absence, which were as destitute of candour as of propose another test of their sincerity. The dates of COU M nts r. of Hest , th e issue e m o f t the order presented v cortaln fr Ao. and P the r y eapec e tire dines of sai er d nat iss en nes te frrtis all fOundation. Indeed, he could not help saying! the communications could give no improper infor• the Bank of England, there was a degree of impropriety in the conduct ; mation even upon their own statements. If they the year 1804 down to the latest period.—Ordered to lie on i the of the Noble Baron which he did not expect, and would agree to give the dates, he would restrict his Table. which he should not have hazarded on no better ; motion to them ;if not, he would put the original general LOFTUS postponed his motion respecting the Pao! Laws till to-morrow. ground than a street report. The Noble Baron had i question. He read his motion forte dates of coal- The Blackfriars Toll Bill was read a third time and gt stated that he (Lord Mulgrave) was not in the confi-imunications on this subject from the first of Septem - The Rotherhithe or New London Docks Union Bill was read dence of his colleagues, or that it yet there was any : ber last, a seternd time, after a division upon an Amendment proposed by intern rse still between them, some of them, he ho , The original question being about to be put, Mr H. MaaTus, that it be read a second time this day sit ho-'• months, this Amendment was . lost upon a division, the numb. 1 pod, would find means of making a communication ; Lord GRENVILLE moved, that the part of the being-,-For the original Motion 27—Against it 2 9 —Majority o , to him of the Noble Baron's notice. Now there was proceedings of 1797, containing the matters referred A Message from the Lord* required the leave of the House to not a shadow of foundation for such insinuation. He to the Secret Committee ; their Report upon them ; examine T. W. Cooke, Esq. respecting the Corn Distillery Pro trusted he enjoyed the confidence of his colleagees , the request to his Maj e sty t o c o mmunicate the Report hibition Bill, in progress through their House. The House re. solved to send an answer by their C own M Messenger and that nothing had occurred to interrupt the har. ;to other Governments in amity with this country ; ii . he Irish Distillery Bill was read a third time, passed, and si mony which subsisted between him and them. He : and his Majesty's answer, that he would commune- dered to the Lords. should be glad to see any Noble Lord get up in his cate accordingly, should be entered on the Journals i Colonel BARRY brought up the Retort of the Committoe fee place, and point out any action of his life which immediately before the present question. (Hear, hear.) , improving the Bogs of ireand.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. FOSTER brought in a Bill for ootninulttg an Act for d, could justify a belief that he would continue to act Lord LIVERPOOL did not object to the entry, I, lating the Drawbacks on Sugar in Ireland, which was rea a, with any sort of men whose confidence he had lost, but maintained, that Mr. Pitt would have made no ' first and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow. or who would hold no intercourse with him. ' I reference to a Secret Committee in 1797, if a nego- On the Motion of Mr. ROSE, the Freeport Bill went through Lord HOLLAND, in explan'atioo said, that the . ciation had been pending at the time. a Committee, the report of which was ordered to be received to. Noble Lord should be able correctly to state what he ! Earl SPENCER replied, that the Noble Lord had I mor row ' I The Quarantine Repletion Bill was read a third time and had said befoie he bad charged his conduct with im- ' an cpportunity of satisfying / himself on the point; ; passed. propriety. 'What he said was, that after the shame. but that to the best of his (Lord Spencer's) recol- ! The Committee on the Expiring Laws Bill was postponed till I ful concealment ss hich had taken place in other im- lection, a negociation for an exchange of prisoners ! 'Thursday next. portant matter, and the want of confidence and cor- was actually pending at the time. ( Hear, hear.) MOTION FOR THANKS TO Silt ROBERT ertssoe.. duality which had betrayed itself between some mem- : The original motion was then put— Mr. HUTCHINSON felt much. satisfaction in hers cr the Cabinet, it was not unnatural to suppose . Contents 27—Non-Contents 39—Majority against i thought a y yof o pinion cld . cated to the Noble Lord. i During the exclusion of strangers, we understood exist, as the merits of Sir Robert Wilson were so get- The Marquis of LANSDOWNE also commented that the second motion, being for the dates of commu- ; nerally acknowledged, both in and out of that House. upon the strangeness of the argument used by the nications,hadbeen put. When strangerswere admitted, . He wished them to dismiss from their minds the con- Noble Lord (Mulgrave) respecting anonymous : Earl SPENCER was arguing, that there could be sideration of two points that might appear to be in squibs, when it was proved to be an official doer- no objection to the production cf the dates—which ' seine measure connected with the subject. First, the resent, and of the existence of which the Noble Lord, : would shew whether or not there had been any delay, I present perilous state of the peninsula ; and, secondly, who was one of his Majesty's Ministers, appeared to without disclosing any particulars of the negociation. 1 the policy or impolicy of the war. The want of sue. be utterly ignorant. The Noble Lord had stated i ' The Earl of ESSEX contended, that when the Mi-leess in such a contest, he contended, could afford no the pendency of a negotiation, but he had carefully nisters refused to listen to so reasonable a proposition, ' rational ground for withholding their thanks froth a abstained from mentioning dates • and, notwithstan- , there was strong reason to presume that something i meritorious o ffi cer ; and where merit like that dis ding the serious charge made by ;Jae French Govern- was wrong—and it was the duty of their Lordships ; played by Sir gobert Wilson was conspicuous, be ment, the Noble Lord had evaded giving any contra. to take care of the character of the country. felt anxious that they should bestow on it that ap. diction to it. What, then, was obe inferred, but' Lord MULGRAVE affirmed, that this motion, plause and those rewards to which it might appear that something remained behind which his Majesty's though apparently simple, was a most artful one, cal. entitled. He then enured into a detail of the services Ministers were afraid of disclosing? • ; culated to take the management of the business out the .of Sir Robert Wilson, dwelling strongly on valour, The Earl of LIVERPOOL contended , that the o f the ha nds of the Executive Government. As to I skill, and activity displayed by him in the pemnsulaS, answer given by his Noole Friend (Lord Mulgrave) the question of delay, it was impossible at present to i which had gained him the thanks of the Portuguese appeared to him so satisfactory, that he did not feel give a direct answer to it—(Hear, h e ar!) —for though I Government, who offered him a pension, while they it necessary to make any addition to it. Their Lord- . the dates might shew what, at first sight, might Toe : procured him the proudest distinction he could hope ships must feel how indiscreet it would he to hurry considered as delay, the matter might be explained ; r--the approbation of an admiring enemy. This fact into public discussion the totrticnlars of a negotiation by the documents themselves. These could not be ' was proved by intercepted letters, in which it appeared which was not brought to an issue. I produced till the termination of the negociation—and ; that a high rank in the Legion of I—Lmour had been Lord GRENVILLE professed himself to be one the dates could not form a proper ground for any i conferred on those who had distinguished themselves of those who was not satisfied with the answer of the proceeding. , serving against Sir Robert Wilson. If it should be Noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty. In fact, i Earl GREY said, that if the question was artful, ; said there was no precedent for such a motion , he it was no answer at all, and it betrayed a levity and ' the Noble Lord's speech in one part was plai n a nd in- i would say the times were such that it became fleet's'? an ignorance which could not well be supposed to genuous ; for to the question of delay he fl at ly re- sary such a precedent should be made, Why were exist in a Cabinet Minister, who did not seem to fused to give any answer at all. He contended, that the battles of Vimiera, Corunna, and Talavera ° i r e ; know till that moment that such a document was in ' the dates might afford some grounds of proceeding. I quited t Was it because the power of France had existence as the letter of the Duke of Cadore to the The Earl of LIVERPOOL, as far as his recollec. been o verthrown, and the balance of power restor ed • Dutch Finance Minister. As little satisfaction did tion went, thought this mode of calling for dates, be- INo ; it was impossible to suppose that Sir Alm he give when he treated the motion of his Noble ' fore the documents themselves were p r oduced, was . Moore or Lord Wellington with such numbers, al l Friend as novel end unprecedented. The precedent , unprecedented. The dates, hesides, could a ff or d n o ; they commanded could attain an obj e c t so nig h which had been mentioned proved the contrary , and ground for proceeding. i They were sent to set Spain and Portugal an exempte attested the sense which the Parliament and the Go- . Lord HOLLANYS contended that they might, ' of valour, which followed, would free tho se cteintries_ vernment of the country then felt at the attempt ; and p u t the e xtr em e c ase, that i t m igll t a pp ear that a from the yoke of France. Sir Robert Wilson had . to asperse the character of both ; and he entreated . proposition had been made on the g 4 of S e ptember fully acted up to this principle, and was thereforea; their Lordships to consider the great difference which last, and not answered till now. Na ope could doubt titled to their gratitude . He r eg retted the lace °ll occurred between the two cases. 'Me accusation that this would form a good ground for further pro- , nisters in Portugal and Spain (Mr. Villiers and Mr. I( . • against this country then was, that the French priso- ; ceedings. Frer were not there to bear testimony to his high e) ners were treated with inhumanity. That accusation I Lord KING ask e d the Ministers, who h ad refuaed deserts. He pledged himself to prove that his move: : was refuted in the most solemn and public manner. ito grant the communication of the terms and circum- ments in t h e p eninsula had been directed br sot What is the charge now ? Why, that the Govern- i stances of the negotiation, upon the ground of its, be- policy. Though young, Sir Robert Wilson had . ment of this country have refused to listen to a pro- ing still pending, and who had resisted th e Forn m u . . 17 years almost constantly in distinguished servwe s t_ position for an exchange of prise -lers. By so doing,' nication of the dates, upon the grounds of such infor- ; Which he anxiously sought to share even in t h_e_ u m t r : if the charge be true, would they not be guilty of : mation being insufficient to furnish materials of any ! g distant and inhospitable countries. He (Mr.H st _b . again D t : s. much greater and more comprehensive cruelty than' proceeding, Whether they would prorbise to commit'. i inset') did not join in the vulgar clemour greatest sta WAS before imputed to this country, for the French nicate the facts or dates now withheld when the e. st l naparte. H . e thought him at once the v or modertl Government only charged us with want of humanity gotiation stated to be pending wai closed ? - • Mao, sad the greatest Yeitriar that Velegkt acts here to be towards the Trench ; nothing more would be guilty of Cl dates when this countrymen, but als been received , Indeed, if the charg assertion of the them, they would st ernment refused ous crime: There w ,osely eluded it ter which Ministers 's I