Star. — London, England, 1822-02-08 00:00:00

ter to the measures which he was submitting to the House. if. however, he had misunderstood the sen timents of the Right Hon. Baronet, the House would most likely have the benefit of hi; views upon the qiiestion. The Right Hon. Baronet had admitted the necessity of coercive measures, but at the same time he made some allusion to the adoption of a cod ciliatory course in conjunction with them. Now he (the Noble Marquis) must protest against this prin ciple altogether. Nothing could be more fatal to the object they had in view than yielding anything like concession to these deluded people, while they remained in opposition to the laws of their country. This was not the time for concil:Ation ; the only ob ject which ought to engross their attention at the ism.ent moment was, the danger and exigency of these horrid outrages, and the imperative neces sity of crushing them at once. They must not now be occupied with discussing the system of Govern 1-tnent in Ireland. or the various causes which were assigned bv as producing the dread state into which that country was plunged.— There could not ros,ihly exist a more fatal principle, than that of holding out to an insurgent people the : .lizhtest notion of any alteration in the government or the laws. Br such a line of proceeding, the House would be holding out the most direct premium to future insurrectionary movements. And whatever cnormi:ies they committed now, the instruments of anothc: - rebellion might be expected to go still fur ther their crimes and their atrocities. This was herrMe enough, without having the prospect con <anti.: before their eyes of succeeding ones marked by atr:•cties of a still deeper dye. This rebellion went already to the extent of secret combinations for di; i.iing lands, and seizing upon property which pro duce.' more than a certain income. It was, in fact, a rebellion of murder and plunder, carded on by in visible agents, who would be sure to make Ireland the scene of future insurrection and lawless outrage, if anything were conceded upon the present occasion. The noose would therefore see the impropriety and ,:anger of mixing conciliation with the measures they right think fit to adopt in the present emergency. T:ie time for conciliatory measures, and for exami pv.ion into the causes of the distress which no doubt e..isted in Ireland, would be when its people had re turned to a tranquil state of graceful obedience to the I:1—s. AU political or religious topics should be cnoended in the present time of danger and alarm. • t The Catholic Body, on a former similar occasion, Lcting wisely, judiciously, .::rd temperately, ab s:ained I:orri bringing their claims before the Parlia rleat. He was confident that they would now pursue the s.tine line of conduct; for the existence of these (I:,turbances must have the effect, if no other cause c2erated, of rejection for their claims. With regard :1 conciliation, as far as it was practicable without involving them in concession to the insurgents, he tl: )tight that the delay in bringing the subject before Parliament was the greatest pledge of a conciliatory disposition which the Government could afford.— Government had waited anxiously and very patiently with the hope that the disturbances might be sup pressed without the necessity of making the present s:rlication to Parliament. The military forces were ivreased, but they were found to be inadequate to the object. They could not drive the insurgents from their fastnesses; and, in one instance, they dis covered a tamp where they had been formed, and i• which they had left various martial implements. F- • , Y1 the Special Commission much had been ex- But its labours produced no permanent ef fect. The noble individual who presided over the Iri,b Government, was most anxious to ameliorate the condition of the people of Ireland, and to attach them more closely to the House of Hanover; and he (Lord Wellesley) was of opinion that the surest me thod of accomplishing that object, was to enforce a due obedience to its authority, and to the institutions which were supported under its sway. From this conviction he was prepared to take the responsibility of administering these laws, if the Parliament, in its wisdom, should think fit to enact them. It was with the most painful feelings that he had to communi cate to the House, intelligence of the commission of fresh outrages, exceeding, in their bloody and fero cious character, those described in the papers then in the hands of Members. (The Noble Marquis here described the attack on and murder of the policemen, given in the Star of yesterday.) It was to be remarked that all these outrages were committed in the night, and that the object of the Bills was to make persons responsible for not being in their houses at the pro per time for retirement and rest. He trusted he should not be called on for any further information, which induced the head of the Irish Government to think the suspension of the Hitheas Corpus Act necessary. Ile believed it was common for the house to place so much confidence in the Ministers of the Clown, in all cases of great public exigency, as not to re quire from them the information on which they acted upon their own responsibility. He was happy that, Iris Majesty's visit to Ireland had been attended with that expression of attachment and affection on the part of the people, which was so gratifying to an Irishman's heart. That visit had produced a degree of union where the fiercest division had previously existed. And notwithstanding that individuals had endeavoured to push unanimity tot, far, it still re mained as the monument of his Majesty's presence, and as an earnest of the benefit to which that pre sence was to give rise in time to come. The great mass of the population was sound in its loyalty, and attachment to the laws ; but some were driven to their destruction by distress. At present the outrages were confined to the ignorant and the uneducated, and betrayed no symptoms of a religious or a political character. If, however, the Parliament should hesi tate in granting powers for putting it down at once,' it might receive those stimulating additions, and the whole country, educated as well as ignorant, might be involved in it. He trusted that he had now laid the subject before the House, briefly but fully, and that in so doing he had said nothing that could pro voke unnecessary discussion. If the House was dis po'ed to grant these powers, they could not be put into action too speedily. With that view of the ques tion he should press the passing of the Bills with as little delay as possible. Ilia Right Hon. Friend,who %mild be enabled to give the House more information thin) he po sibly could, he meant the Chief Secre tary (Sir. Goulburn),.had arrived in town that day, frs :.. Ireland, and would shortly take his seat in Lb.: House. He should now move—" That leave be given to bring in a Bill for the prevention of outrage and disturbance, and for putting down rebel lion in Ireland." - Sir JOHN NEWPORT began by claming the indulgence of the House, which he had much more cause to ask than the Noble Lord. However painful also, might be the su b j ect _to the Noble Ldtd, it was not less so to him. No one could have a higher opi nion than he had of the spirit, talents, and ability of the Noble Lord, who was now appointed to the Go vernment of Ireland. It was to him most painful to admit the necessity of coercion to put down the exist ing disturbances ; but at the same time, it was satis factory to him to know, that he at least had no par ticipation in the measures which produced them. The blame of that must attach to his Majesty's Ministers —(Hear, hear).—To elucidate this, he beg g ed to move that the Clerk should read a Motion from the Journals of the House, dated June 17, 1817- The Clerk here read the Motion, which was—" That an humble Address be presented to the Prince Regent, praying that his Royal Ilighneu would graciously please to direct such a de liberate and accurate inquiry, during the prorogation of Parlia ment, into the state and condition of the People of Ireland, as would develope the nature and point oat the causes of the evils which affected that part of the United Kingdom, and devise such efficacious and salutary remedies as appeared most adequate to accomplish that object ; and, in the emphatic words of the Act of Union, promote the prosperity and consolidate the strength and resources of the Empire."' The Right Hun. Baronet (in continuation) said, that the 'feller upon the negative of that motion was the Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peel)—(Hear, hear).—lf the proposed inquiries had been made at that period, the present measures would not now have been called for, for the existing evils would have been prevented--(Hear).--How then could the Government who negatived that pro position come down to the House, to ask for powers of such a description as those which should be granted by the enactment of these Bills? He knew that Ire land now required coercive measures; hut he differed from the Noble Lord as to the nature of those mea sure:. The disturbances were altogether unconnected with the Constitution, and he was not disposed to give them any connection with it, by suspending its very spirit. In framing new measures, some consideration ought to be had to the laws which were already in ex istence. The Whiteboy Act did as much as the Insur rection Act itself would do in one respect; for it ren dered it penal to be out after son-set, in the same man ner as that Act did. He was disposed to place all confi dence in the Marquis Wellesley, but there was nothing in the dispatches which expressed the opinion of that Nobleman as to the necessity of the proposed measures. —lie was unhappily convinced that nothing but se verity would bring back the people to their duty.— But instead of granting these measures and vesting such powers in the local Magistrates, he would in crease the military power. The papers of which the House were in possession, contained no statements upon which the proposed measures appeared to be necessary. The Insurrection Act provide 1, that any man found out of his house after sun -set, and before sun-rise, under any pretext—any occupier of a house being found absent from it at those periods—any per son proposing or taking unlawful oaths, were liable to transportation. And chat not by the verdict of a Jury—(/tear)—but by the direction of Magistrates. It was impossible to say that such a law could be' placed upon the Statute-book, without the most pres sing exigency being proved to exist. The Noble Lord had informed them, that the Acts were only to be in force until the Ist of August. As to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, he would ask the Noble Lord when it had been enforced without grounds, very different from those which existed in the present case? The Noble Lord had deprecated any movements at this perioJ, of those who supported the Catholic Claims. Now, he being one• of a party who at all times had declared that the only true basis upon which the tranquillity and happiness of Ireland could be established, was an equalization of civil rights amongst all classes of its people, he could not be ex pected to subscribe to the doctrine which the Noble Lord had advanced—(hear, hear).—But let it not be conceived that in the remotest degree he could countenance the conduct of those wretched men who were involving their country in destruction. To do so would be doing the greatest injustice to himself and his friends. He did not differ with the Noble Lord upon the necessity of putting down these out rages; he differed with him as to the means of doing so: he did not differ with him as to the necessity of', punishing the criminal; but he could not agree to the mode which he recommended. He wished them to be brought back to a full and due obedience to the laws, and that Ireland should receive her deserved share of the benefits, the protection, and the blessings of the British Constitution. Mr. HUTCHINSON said no man felt more keenly than he did the painful situation in which an Irish Gentleman was placed at this crisis, yet he was as anxious as the Noble Marquis himself to afford pro. tection to the country. That there was a certainty of being able to put down the rioters by the existing laws, he knew. The insurgents had been always found con temptible when opposed by a sufficient force. The alarm caused by the disturbances was felt only in the West or South-west of Ireland, and he had no doubt that four or five thousand troops would put down these disturbances in one mouth. The Hon. Gentle man here warmly condemned the avowed intention of the Noble Lord to attempt carrying the proposed Acts through all their stages that night. The Noble Lord seemed to think, that if he armed the Lord. Lieutenant of Ireland with force sufficient to put down the present disturbances in Ireland, that permanent tranquillity would follow. In fact Ireland never could be quieted until the situation of the country was changed. The state of the peasantry must be changed ;1 the tythe system, in particular, must be altered, be. l fore tranquillity could be expected. The state of the' peasant in Ireland was worse than in the most bar barous part of Europe ; and in this assertion he had the concurrence even of every stranger who visited it. Lord MOUNT CHARLES said he must give his vote and concurrence to the Noble Lord, after the ma turest consideration. Nothing but the measures pro posed could put down insurrection and rebellion, for such it now was in Ireland. He was aware that the Acts were unconstitutional, but there were times when such Acts were indispensably required. Mr. S. RICE could not give a silent vote upon the present occasion. The last speaker had been in favour of the resolutions; but had thought all inquiry un necessary. Ile (Mr. Rice) did not object to measures of coercion; and would say, that, if the existing laws were not adequate, let new laws be enacted. But bad the present enactments been foond effectual on former occasions? No; they had Seen tried. and failed: hems, from the time of the Union, nothing bad been dewier the advantage of Ireland. It had' been stated by the Noble Lord that there was nothing political in the present disturbances. Than why sus pend the Habeas Corpus Act, solely adapted to dis turbances of a political nature? At the same time, he thought that. by a slight alteration' in the Com mittee, tbe Insurrection Act might be made avail able. But no opportunity was afforded by the course pursued by the Noble Lord—•(Cris hea►, hear.) -To the mode•of trial under that Act, be must ob ject, as, by a temporaryremedy, a lasting evil would be incurred. The trial was to take place before the local Magistrates. who might dispense with a Jury, if they thought fit. But he had never heard that the experiment of a Jury had been tried by any "Magis trate. The late Mr. Ponsonby had stated, in his place, that the waiter of an inn had been appointed a Magistrate. But he would hot trust the Magistracy of England with such powers ; nor would he trust himself, amidst the circumstances of irritation that daily took place. He could state acts on the part of Irish Magistrates that shewed them unfit for the pos session of such powers. The Hon. Member next al luded to certain Resolutions passed at a Meeting held in the county of Limerick, and which did not appear in the papers before the House. The Resolutions prayed for the meeting of Parliament in November, for an inquiry into the state of Ireland. Next to the tithe-system, the disturbances were to be ascribed to the distillery laws, and out of a totak of 16,000 convictions, 4000 arose from breaches of those laws. In fact,. the Chancellor of the Exchequer was the most efficient ally of Captain Rock. He saw no one reason for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. Would it be proposed to suspend the Act in England on similar grounds? He called on the English Members not to enact for Ireland what they would not suffer in their own case. He also deprecated the precipitate mode of hurrying the other Bill through the House—(liear). Captain O'GRADY said, it was from experience that the Gentlemen of the County of Limerick (who knew best wlait was necessary) had altered their opi nion in favour of a modified Insurrection Act for one without any qualification. With respect to the dis tresses from which some of those evils were said to have sprung, there was no man who more sincerely deplored them than he did : he deeply lamented the miseries which afflicted his countrymen, and none did he regret more, thanthat intolerable nuisance the tithe system—(Hear). Mr. DAWSON supported the motion. Sir H. PARNELL said, from all he had learned, he felt convinced that nothing short of the proposed coercive measures would be sufficient to restore tran quillity to Ireland. Mr. BUTLER was of opinion that strong measures were necessary, yet he did not consider that reli gion or politics were connected with the present dis turbances. The causes were entirely local, and that was one reason why he did not consider the Magis trates as the best judges—(Hear, hear). Mr. GRATTAN thought that the law empower ing Magistrates to transport the disaffected or to con fine them, would not eradicate the evils complained of. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT expressed his surprise at the conduct of the Noble Lord (Londonderry), who, for upwards of twenty years, had the opportunities of knowing the real state of ',eland, of ascertaining the numerous evils which pressed upon her, and of be coming acquainted with their causes, yet had neg lected all inquiries, had delayed every remedy, until now that he called upon the House to put down by force those mischiefs which he himself had thus neg ligently suffered to accumulate (Hear).—He was sur prised that the Noble Lord should have the face to get up in that House and call for a repetition of those acts of dreadful oppression (for such he would call them, however necessary), without giving to the Legislature an opportunity of inquiring into the nature and origin of the evils for which these palliatives were required. Was it to be tolerated, that Ireland should know no thing of this country, but by bloodshed and the gibbet? He perceived that every Member who gave his sup port to the proposed measures, did so with consider able reluctance, as if convinced that the remedy of the evil did not lie in them. He was glad to witness this sympathy, and he trusted they would act up to its suggestions by compelling the Noble Lord to look about him, and to do what he had so long and so grossly neglected. It was said that the disturbances in Ireland did not arise from any political feelings. He firmly believed they did not. It was impossible that greater affection towards the Sovereign could be evinced, or that a stronger sense could be entertained of the compliment paid them on that occasion, than was shewn by the Irish people in the recent visit of his Majesty to their country. This feeling was not limited—it was generally felt throughout the island. That visit had, he believed, done some good ; but it was impossible that his Majesty should work miracles. He would admit that acts of great outrage had been committed, and that their repetition ought to be pre vented. He, in common with all others, condemned them; yet it should be known that they were not the result of deep wickedness, but arose from the pres sure of such accumulated miseries, that no man who lifted his arm to prevent or avenge the injury, but must deplore the fate of the unfortunate beings who had been driven to its commission—(Hear).—The Hon. Baronet again adverted to what he declared to be gross neglect in the Noble Lord (Londonderry), who had been a main instrument in effecting the Union between the two countries, and thereby de prived Ireland of that which might, perhaps, have worked her salvation; but who had, during a series of years, suffered those evils to increase, and taken no one step to prevent them—(Hear). —He would not go further into the subject at present ; but con clude by saying, that if England wished to retain possession of Ireland, she must alter her system ; and he might add, that it would be much better to get rid of her altogether, thah attempt to preserve our authority by a system of injustice—(Hear). Mr. GILBERT said, he had no objection to some strong measures for the purpose of putting down the present outrages ; but he would maintain, that unless they were accompanied by measures of conciliation, and an earnest endeavour to redress the numerous evils with which Ireland was afflicted, they would only have the effect of considerably increasing the irritation that prevailed in that country. He would .mention as one cause of that litigation, the tithe sys- . Tim If rut ere meet 'flaked was to be kali& Omar, it mdithi by . the teat abo)ition .of that sys lins. ife war delimit dotilldibg inch extensive pima') is by these Acts *add be given, to the Magistracy, is it was well' known, that 'in Ireland *tutice was bought and sold—(Cheersfrems the dlp , ' •). • Mr. A BERC RO MBY could' not agree to a suspen sion of the Habeas Corpus Act, in the absence of any Case to prove its necessity; and he tontended . thatibe Noble L o rd bad shewn no reasonable ground Why the people or Ireland should be deprived of their' b. betty. He could affirm, from information which he had himself received that morning, and upon which he could implicitly rely, that in the afroqty of Cork the appearances of insurrection had entirely ceased. The only additional Instance of outrage which hid come to the knowledge of the Public sance the writing of the Marquis Wellesley's last dispatch, was a mur der committed la the northern part of the county of Cork ; but that outrage, gross and violent as it was, I did not appear to be of a political nature, and cer tainly did not justify the application of the word re bellion, in the sense that the Noble Lord had used it. He would maintain that there was no rebellion in Lieland; and that to call the present disturbances by that name was impolitic r as it tended to inspire the disaffected with a confidence in the strength of their own cause, which at present they by no means felt. if nothing *as to be granted to Ireland, because a part of it was disturbed, it became the duty of Ron. Members to ask what boon had been granted to it— what benefits had been conferred upon it, when it en joyed a state of perfect tranquillity ?--(Hear, hear). What had Government done for it on the Catholic Question (Hear, hear), that important question, on which the Cabinet was divided amongst themselves? What had Government done for it on the subject of tithes ?-4Hear, hear). It. was true that a Member of it had brought into Parliatnent.a Bill, which had excited hopes that the almost intolerable grievances of the present tithe sys►em would be redressed ; bat why had he allowed it to drop ?—(lfear). What had Government done for it as to the revision of the Ma- gistracy—a measure which had been so often pro mised, and so often neglected ?—(Hear, hear). In deed, be might ask what had Government done for that unfortunate nation in the way of abolishing any one of the numerous grievances by which it was af flicted ?—(flea). He could not recollect a single measure which they had adopted for its ameliori don ; and as it was too much to allow it to know nothing of England and English legislation, except from harsh and coercive measures, he should cer tainly vote against the proposition of the Noble Lord—(Loud cheering). Mr. HUME was anxious to put a question to the Noble Lord. He was of opinion that the House should go immediately into the tithe system in Ire land. His friends knew that that system in England and Ireland had long occupied his attention; and he now wished to knew whether the Noble Marquis would support a motion for a Committee to inquire into the tithe system of Ireland, which he would propose to the House? Sir L. COLE rose to defend the conduct of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, regarding the appoint ment and revision of the Magistracy. Mr. GILBERT, in consequence of what had fallen from the last speaker, wished to mention a tact which had come within his knowledge. He had transmitted to the Lord Chancellor four affidavits, accusing a Ma gistrate of gross misconduct. Not receiving any an swer to the letter which he sent along with them, he called on the Lord Chancellor, to learn the effect which the affidavits had produced. He was then in formed that an examination had been made into the conduct of the Magistrate; that he had pleaded guilty in part to the charges preferred against him; that he had attributed his errors to having been misled by a book called Macnallys Justice; and that he had flung himself entirely upon the clemency of his Lordship. The consequence was, that the man still retained his situation as a Magistrate—(Loud cries of Hear, from all parts of the House). Mr. D. BROWNE said, that he should not feel himself justified in voting for so monstrous a pro ceeding as the Insurrection Act, except upon the most clear, absolute, and overpowering necessity. Mr. C. GRANT said, that he gave his vote in fa vour of the proposition of the Noble Marquis frOm sad and melancholy conviction of the necessity of re sorting to some such measure as the Insurrection Act —(Hear). About a year anaa half ago, he had had the honour of stating his opinions of that measure to the House at considerable length, and he must new say that his opinions were still as hostile as formerly to the principles on which ifwas founded, and to the expediency of making it part of thepermanent system of policy under which Ireland was to be governed— (Lcud cheering). But although such were his opinions, declaredooo, on a former occasion, still he never bad contended that casts might not arise in which it would be expedient to sacrifice a public principle to a fatal exigency of the State. he. had a melancholy satisfaction in feeling that the vote which he was that night to give *ak more a vote of confidence in the person to whom the administration of Ireland was con fided, than a vote which could be sanctioned by any principle of sound legislation—(Cries of Hear, hear). Although no such 'measures as it was now proposed to adopt were necessary when he left Ireland, still he was convinced that circumstances had now so far chauged as to require their adoption—(Hear).—The papers, indeed, at preient on their table, certainly did not appear to him sufficient to justify t4em—(Hear, hear)—and if it had not been for the information that day received in town, he, for one, would not hive granted to Government the powers which it had de manded—(Hear, hear) He now granted those powers with the greater willingness, because they were to be entrusted to a•Nobleman whose general intentions to wards Ireland fully' concurred with his own—(Hear, hear) —a Nobleman, who he was sure would not allow any temporary circumstances to thwart. the generous views which he entertained towards that ill-fated but high-spirited people—(cheers).-- He was quite confident that the whom lie alluded, would never extraordinary' powers without deem , lutely necessary. He was quite - tamed those power* he would use and humanity, and would feel himself the more for the welfare fellow-subjectp-inerrq sion walla lae Atie ato quirt' was institutcdinto the state . I Km sure would ' not mccs to thwart. the rtained towards that ople—(Cheer.s).--, le noble personage.to have asked for any k deeming them abso- f sure that having gb- i, ;e them with prudence l stimulated to exert and happiness of his trusted that the Ses- i' elapie before an in- Le of Ireland—(blear.)