Star. — London, England, 1822-05-02 00:00:00

7 -- -. '! i~ I r~ I ~.~, w•T Geneva and other parts of the Helvetic Confederacy, in consequence of some menaces held out to those, States, by the Alliance calling itself Holy ? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, in reply, that he could give no answer, for until the Hon. zAd Learned Gentleman had mentioned the facts, be never heard even a suggestion of them—(Hettr, hear). • Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said his second ques tion formed the matter of a query put to the Noble Marquis yesterday by an Hon. Friend of his, but, to which no answer was given, as an exception was taken to the manner in. which it was framed. He would therefore state his question now as pre cisely . an d u nexceptionably as possible. The question was, Whether his Majesty's Government had yet recog nized the independence of the Republics formerly composing South America ? or if they had net for mally recognized them, whether there was not such an intercourse as to imply a recognition, and if they had not done either, whether they had any intention of doing so ? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that as to the question respecting the formal recognition of South America, he should reply in the negative.— With regard to that .sort of intercourse, which im plied a recognition, he apprehended that the answer to the first patt of the question disposed of that also. Hitherto the countries of South AMerica had been treated as belligerents ; and with all the respect due to belligerents, the blockade had been respected by this Government. So far their tights had been re cognized. With regard to any .commercial inter course, the Hon. Member would do well to refer to a Bill now before the House, in which it would be seen that measures were taken to give it every faci lity. Having then answered in the negative to the Hon. and Learned Member's first part of the ques tion, he had to hope that Government would not be pressed further as to what steps they meant to take in future—(Hear, hear).—Hc hoped Ministers would not be called upon for explanation, until they had better information upon the subject; for it should not be forgotten, that before any line of conduct was adopted, it would be necessary to have an explana tion with the parties. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, that in treat ing the States of South America as belligerents, this country had dOne no more than America and some other States. It would be seen, however, that some of these States, and particularly America, had gone further, and formally recognized the independence aaf the States of South America. It now appeared, froth the statement of the Noble Lord, that the same steps had not yet been taken by this Government ; but it was unnecessary for the Noble Lord to desire not to be pressed for a further explanation, for he (Sir James) had no disposition to do so. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that be had some reason to complain of the precipitancy with which these questions were brought forward.— The Hon. and Learned Member had assumed facts upon no other authority than mere reports. That the United States of America had recognized the inde pendence of the Republics of the South, was'a fact of w hich be was still to be informed. He was aware, indeed, that the Piesi:lent sent a Message to the two Assemblies, and that a Report was made out, but he had rant heard that any proceeding took place upon it. Under such circumstances h.: was obliged to say, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was too hasty in assuming facts without authority, and founding questions upon them which could tend to no other purirne than to embarrass Government. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, he was not at all prepared for this retaliation on . the part of the Noble Lord. In speaking of the United States, he only meant to say that they had almost formally re cognized the independence of South America. After all, the only difference between him and the Noble Lord was as to the arrivii of the information respect ing the formal recognition. ALIEN ACT. Sir ROBERT WILSON said he too had to move for a Paper connected with the conduct of the Al liance calling itself Holy. He observed that it was in contemplation to renew that most odious and anti. European measure called the Alien Bill—(Hear, hear, hear). -11 this was done, he should say it was a breach, if not of good faith, at least of an under standing; for whey the subject was last before the House it was understood that it was not to be brought on again —(Cries of " No, no r)—The im pression upon his mind certainly was that the Bill was not to be renewed. He then moved for e Re turn of the names and number of persons sent out of the country under the Alien Act since its re-enact ment, and of the number of Appeals made to the Privy Council upon the subject. Mr. lIOBIIOUSE, in seconding the motion, said , that if this odious measure was brought in again, he would use his privilege of proposing perpetual ad journments; and if Gentlemen would second him, Ministers would be at length compelled to abandon it. CIVIL LIST. Mr. HUME wished to ask the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he observed the absence of the Noble Marquis (Londonderry), when the Ilouse was to expect the Returns ordered on the 29th of March last, respecting the third class of the Civil List? He complained that many of the orders made by the House for the production of papers were disregarded. There had been sevesal orders given, relative to the Barrack and Ordnance departments. Papers which had been moved for respecting Colo.; vial Accounts bad not yet been produced, in conse quence the consideration of that important subject would be deferred till a lute period of the Session. The Marquis of . LONDONDERRY (who had come into the House while the questions were asking) said that he would leave the answer on the subject of Colonial affairs to the Hon. Secretary for that depart ment, With respect to the papers relative to the Civil List, he had seen them this morning, and they would be ready to be presented to•morrow. He had taken the liberty of carrying the information further than had been demanded. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) would see that not only were the ac- counts given for the year 1792, but for every year since that period. They would form a complete code - information. Mr. HUME asked if . the Noble Marquis had any objection to having the Expenserof the Irish Civil List produced? The Marquis of. LONDONDERRY replied, that had no objectiou.—The paperk were ordered. Half-pa' Mr. saa4 : . . earliest opportunity. ezioestl proposal that bad been Subetit to the House by the Noble Marquis on• Monday evenint.—namely, that of an Extension of the Bank Charterfor ten years, though it had pot much connexion with the subject now before theta. Ile felt it necessary to state that he objected most decidedly to the extension of that Charter, or rather, that which the Noble Marquis had unintentionally termed it, the Bank Monopoly. The CHANCELLOR of the ,EXCHEQUER rose to order ; he said the observations of the Hon. Member had no reference to the subject before the House. Mr. GRENFELL said, that he understood the question was for a ComMittee of Supply, and that he was not out of order in the course he adopted. The SPEAKER said, that the Committee was not one of Supply, but one for the discussion of a parti cular subject. All that he felt necessary to observe, was to ask the Hon. Gentleman whether the subject which he wished to comment upon did not form a part of the notice of a motion which had been fixed for a subsequent day ? If that was the else, the Hon. Member must feel that he was infornial in bringing forward a question then which was fixed for a later period. • Mr. GRENFELL admitted that he was in error, but expressed his intention of calling the notice of the House to the measure on an early day. The House then resolved itself into a Committee, and the Speaker left the Chair. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that a plan had,been submitted on Monday night to the House by his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Lon donderry), relative to the modification of the Half pay and . Pension List. His Noble Friend had then described the advantages of the measure, and pointed out the immediate annual saving to the country of nearly the sum of three millions. The public atten tion appeared to be much excited on the subject in consequence of the intimation given on that evening. Ills Noble Friend had merely given the outlines of the plan ; it would be his duty to fill up the blanks, and to explain to the House the principle on winch. the measure was founded, and the material objects which it had in view. A great deal was of neces sity to be deferred, until the opinions of those who should become the .contractors for either the whole or a part should be ascertained ; and a great deal was to be left to the consideration of the Douse in the fu; tare stages of the Bill. In the present cage, he only wished to call their attention to some of the principal points of the measure. It might be asked, why did not the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the first place, make a bargain with persons willing to be come contractors, and then bring the subject before Parliament to receive its sanction? But his answer was, that it was a measure of so novel a nature, so much out of the ordinary practice of finance, thakhe did not feel himself authorized to enter into any- treaty, or to pledge to a certain extent the concur rence of the House, until he had received their sanc tion to the principle of the measure. The plan was perfectly distinct from any others alluded to by ;he liable Lord on a former evening. It had no connec tion with the question of the currency—nor had it any connection with a modification of the exist ing Bank Charter. On -both those questions he in tended to submit some propositions to the House in a few days, as he considered that the question relative to the circulation of one-pound notes was intimately and substantially connected with that of the Bank Charter. The simple question on that evening was, the considering how far the sum annually voted for various annuities, in compensation for Naial, iVlili tal y, and in some cases Civil service, and which were to be regarded as a public debt, might be commuted for a fixed sum. On principles of public faith, he had always considered that an individual who re ceived coral ensation for military services, or for those rendered to the State, had as good a title•to the se curity of that sum as the public creditor had. At' the close of the late war, when he had occasion to bring forward a measure for the increase of the half pay of certain branches of the service. he had termed it a debt of public gratitude. In other countries the pay of retired Officers was ever considered in that way. In France it formed a part of the national debt of that country. It was his wish to leave the entire re gulations of the Service as they at present stood. He would not alter any of tl:e claims, or the mode of paying them. He would not, interfere with the regu lation for exchanging from half-pay to full pay, or prescribe new modes of selling out. Under the charge of half-pay and pensions was also included the whole superannuated naval and military allow ance, and to this head extended the new measure which lie was about to introduce. He proposed that the pensions and allowances now charged on the Consolidated Fund, which amounted to £400,000 or £500,000 a year should also come under the new re gulation; it was even questionable whether this sum ought to be charged at all on this Fund. The pro vision for the Royal Family, which was given to those illustrious individuals to support the rank and splendour which became their high station, as well as those sums given to the Crown to enable it to exercise its munificence, which were charged on the Consolidated Fund, were such as in their nature he thought ought to be excluded from any regulation of the nature he had to propose; because if they were. brought under it, it would tie up the bounty of the Crown. He also meant to exclude those whose claims were on the Four and a Half per Cents. how ever, the propriety of these exclusions would be here after open for discussion. By the exclusion of these charges, the sum under consideration would be about 5,000,000/. It was a sum vague and fluctuating in' its nature, in consequence of the death of naval and military men, and pensions which might yet arise. But 5,000,000/. approximated the real sum. The abstract from which forty-five years was made as the probable period of the termination of the annuitants, was taken from a return of 5,000 persons who now compose one-fourth of the number to be provided for, the amount of that number being sixty thou sand. There would be an annual decrement in that number till it became finally extinct (Hear, hear). — It was not improbable that the age of some might be protracted to 60 or 70 years ; however, these woo rare instances. Oa the whole it was concluded, that might arise for which no compensation._ given, he thought it would be a great ha rdshi p on the indi viduals to have the contract made in any other way than that proposed. In, any other mode it would give an opportunity of prpfit on the one hand which Par liament could not sanction. As the Long Annuities terminated in SS years,k it would be imprudent that the contract should terminate in less than seven years after, as it would be a great inconvenience if both ex pired at the same time. , The Public wcdd,.by this arrangement, have a great annual saving for fifteen years ; but the contracting parties would lose during that period. He could not see what objection Par liament could have to recognise this debt and fund it. In whatever way the payment of it would be pro vided for, it was not intended that it should have any reference to the present Sinking Fund. The prin ciple that these annuities were now a part of the debt of the State could hardly be denied, and as such ought to be provided for. A strong reason which justified that principle was the nature of the change which took place since ahese annuities were first granted. The long duration of the last wars and the great exertions which this country made, had in creased these charges to - their present large , amount. Previous to 1792, they amounted only to £650,000, as appeared by the Fourth Report of the Finance Committee which then sit—now they amounted to 5,000,000 —partly by the increase of the number of naval and military men employed, and partly by the more liberal allowances now given, which extend to a vatiety of cases not then provided for. Soldiers were not then entitled to pensions. These extraordi nary charges, which grew out of the last war, were intended to recompense the services of those who risked their lives for the preservation of their country. Ile thought it became the wisdom of Parliament to revise these regulations—(Hear, hear)—with a view of lessening these charges ; and it was upon that ground that the present regulation the more strongly recommended itself. The Committee would see the impropriety of his entering into minute - details, or mentioning those terms which Government think the parties ought to accept. It was better to leave them to act for themselves. He did not think it necessary to enter into any further explanation now, as the subject would come again under discussion. The de tails he would defer till then; but the application of the measure would, he thought, be productive of a -most beneficial effect. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded with proposing the following Resolutions : 1. That it is the opinion of this Committee, that the amount of the Naval and Military Pensions and Civil Superannuations nay be estimated at about £5,000,000. 2. That it is the opinion of this Committee, that this sum, cal. culated as an annuity guaranteed by Parliament, may be cond.. •41.6 fed as a burden, forming a charge upon the public income of the country, fur the lives of the annuitants, subject to such re guiations as are applicable in each case. 5. That it is the opinion of this Committee, that the amount of this charge has been increased, principally by the long du ration and extended exertions of the late war, from the sum of about £650,000 to the said sum of 4000,000. 4. That it is the opinion of this Committee, that under this gieat accumulation of annual charge, and in the present state of the country, it is expedient to make provision for apportioning this burden so as to ensure its final extinction, either by an equal annual annuity, terminable within forty-five years, or by per manent annuities, with such provision for the repayment thereof as is required by the Act 52 George 111. c. 55. 5. ghat it is the opinion of this Committee, that the Commis sioners of his 111ajesty s Treasury should treat and contract (sub ject to the approbation of Parliament) with such bodies politic and corporate, or other persons, as may be willing to undertake to provide for the charge of the above-mentioned pensions and allowances, or any part thereof, in either of the above modes; and who shall give adequate security for the performance of such undertaking. If the Pensions are now £5,060,000 a-year, they will, at the lend of each one of the ensuing 45 years, be of the following magnitude After year I ies,ooo,ooo 4,855,856 4,711,708 I 4,567,559 4,425,561 4,583,563 4,141,565 4,001,749 0,861,932 3,722,116 3,585,494 3,448,872 3,312,250 3,179,476 3,046,703 2,913,930 2,786,136 2,658,343 2,530,550 2,410,392 2,290,239 2,170,077 2,058,439 After year 23 24 23 26 27 25 29 50 31 52 33 34 35 36 34 ZS 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 - £1,946,801 - 1,835,163 1,732,483 1,629,803 - 1,527,124 - 1;433,929 - 1,340,734 - 1,247,540 - 1,164,113 - 1,080,686 - 997,260 - 926,473 - 855,687 - 734,900 - 722,536 - 600,172 - 597,207 - 544,487 491,167 - 437,847 - 392,302 - 346,757 - 506,679 On the first Resolution being put, Colonel DAVIES objected to the measure ; first, because at the moment Ministers came down to the House to tell it they were determined to preserve the Sinking Fund inviolate, they were making a covert attack on it. They were also acting on the unjust principle of relieving themselves at the expense of posterity. The calculations made were founded on deaths alone, not on the contingency of war or pro motion. Ile was satisfied, however, the Public would not gain by the arrangement. On looking at the sums to he paid by the Public, and the contrac tors, it would be found the Public would sustain a loss. For the first fifteen years the contractors would pay £63,580,000—the total amount the Public would pay in that time, would be £42,000,000. In the se cond period the contractors would pay £39,600,000, and the Public 04,000,000 ; thus, in this period, the Public would lose 1:44,40000; and on the whole they would lose £23,400,000. It was truc there was to be set against this loss the sum saved in the first instance. However, he thought the Public would gain nothing by the measure. These were his ideas, which he thought it his duty to state to the House, however crude they may be en a subject which from its novelty required more time to become well acquainted with it. Mr. BRIGHT said be was sorry to see so little at tention paid to this subject as the then state of the House evinced, particularly by those_ Gentlemen of the Agricultural Committee, who ought to be prin cipally interested. No persons would be found to engage in this contract unless a very heavy sum were paid them ; for who would engage in a contract from which it was not probable he would derive any ad- mry . of his family . .? This men. productive of the relief content were determined to afford any • country, they would at once and Leather. Duties. Ile Northumberland (Mr. Beau luced to give up his intention moving of the Leather Tim, under the idea that this novel arrangement would afford any relief. If the House passed this Act, it would confirm the Superannuation Act, and thus•shut itself out from revising it. He hoped that the Committee would reject the Resolution; and he declared it his intention to give it all his opposition in every stage. ' • Sir J. NEWPORT asked if any man would con. ttuet on a system which was directly contrary to the principle on which such bargains were usually made? He maintained that this measure was in opposition *to the principle of the Sinking Fond. He thought It would be more rational that the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund should •be the contractors. This would avoid a double machinery and save the bonu s to the contractors, because whoever contracts will ex pect a large compensation ; besides, these payments must eventually come from the public purse. 'hen as to security; what difficulty will there not be in pro viding an adequate ,security? But this difficulty would be removed by making the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund the contractors. This was the sim plest course, and ought therefore to be adopted.-- However this measure might be cloaked as a loan, he could not be persuaded that it was not au invasion of the principle of the Sinking Fund. Mr. BEAUMONT thought the arrangement cer. tainly tended, to a certain extent, to relieve the Fut ile. In his opinion, the Chancellor of the Bichequer shewed inconsistency in touching the princi;)le of the Sinking Fund, but yet" so far he agreed with him, and only wished that he would become mote con sistent, and do away with the Sinking Fund. He did not see how the present measure would prevent Gentlemen from coming forward still to diminish the burden of taxes. Mr. J.MA R'T IN would not be surprised if the Mem ber for Northumberland (Mr. Beaumont), who voted for the abolition of the Sinking Fund, brought for ward such a measure as the present; but it teas strange to see those who supported it, bringing tor ward a measure which directly attacked its pno iple. Wlifnot transfer the Long Annuities to a 10n,,e. e nod than thirty-eight years ? Life Annuitie. granted every day; the fact was, that Ministers were determined not to give up any of the offices which they maintained were necessary to be upheld to pree: ye the influence of the Crown in that House. He thatigA it necessary to oppose the Resolution. Mr. H. GURNEY' said, the debt 4five millions in its own nature carried with it a Sinking Fund in iLe demise of the patties. Ministers pledged themselves to support an honest, fair Sinking Fund ; hut the present measure, if successful, would render it nomi nal and fallacious. If Ministers were driven to give up two millions, why not take it at once front the Sinking Fund ? Mr. T. WILSON deprecated any infringement ea the Sinking Fund. One of the good effects of th;it Fund was, that it enabled the country to meet any deficiency ir. the Revenue without having recourse t.-> new burdens. At the same time he thought thatoi)- positron to the measure came with a very bad gr.:ce from Hon. Gentlemen on the other side, who, v. hi!:: they professed themselves advocates of reduction, ob jected to it in the only possible way in which it could be carried into effect. Mr. KICARDO contended that the plan was rr thing more nor less than an invasion of the pi incip:e on which the Sinking Fund had been establish,,d. He was surprised to hear it said by the Right FITI. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) that the sum in question was part of the public debt cf the country, while, at the same time, he lent his sup port to a measure, which directly interfered with the fund which had been set apart for its extinction. Viewing the measure in the light of a loan, for it %vas nothing else, he would ask, supposing we now bor rowed £2,200,000, should we not, according to the proposed scheme, be more in debt at the end of forty five years than we were at present? If this proposi tion were just, and to him it appeared incontroverti ble, he would ask if the scheme was not, what he had represented it to be, an invasion of the Sinking Fund? If his Majesty's Ministers had thought proper to propose a measure for doing away the Sinking Fund altogether, he should not have the slightest objection to it ; but he thought it a gross inconsistency to affect to keep it up, and yet at the same time to introduce a scheme which was a direct encroach ment upon it—(Hear, hear). It must be obvious to every man who considered the subject, that the part of the debt which this scheme contemplated, carried its own Sinking Fund with it ; therefore there could be no necessity whatever to bring a new Sinking Fund to act upon it, or to place it in a situation different from the whole debt of the country. In fact, this was, to all intents and purposes, a plan for taking I:2,200,000 from the Sinking Fund. Mr. HUSKISSON said, he did not rise to contro vert the proposition laid down by the Hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. Bright), that this five millions car ried a Sinking Fund with it in the mortality of the annuitants. The strongest friend to the measure urged that in its behalf. With respect to the Hon. Member for Portarlington (Mr. Ricardo), he was sur prised to hear him say that it was an invasion of the Sinking Fund ; but if he rightly understood the ar guments of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, their prin cipal objection to the measure was, that his Right Hon. Friend did not expect to be able to persuade persons to take on themselves the charge of Ming 4...5,000,000 annually, without deriving some profit in return. Part of the burdens of the present gene ration ought to be supported by postenty, and they' were justified by the trinciple of the Sinking PA Act to raise loans payable by posterity, taking care they shall not extend beyond the term of forty-nve years. They had a right to violate the Sinking Ford to relieve some of the burdens. of the country ; but how did they do it by this measure? What was the operation of the measure? 'lf successful, would not the effect of it be to leave the five millions of the Sinking Fund applicable as before, with so much the less to call for its application? It 'Seas to be consi dered whether, with the burdens of a twenty-five years .war, we had not a right to postpone a part of them to posterity ? They had imposed on themselves two. ruudred and forty millions of war taxes for the rtliet ry .- -- I cou situ t; • j of i i , I '1 he 111111 51 ' ( 114 i': ~'.. -' - '. ' .... . . • . . . . . • - • ... . . . . , • • •.•<, .. _ • kli4 • . ‘ • HALIONIY! iii: t r re. satafrribtyu. • -five years the sum'tobeffl4.b.,7 vantage himself, or atry*ol :HANCEALOR . , moved oon •td not amount Smailli‘ abore l hopre would not be product derof tihrWhy for the (*a goi n . g into a than 001,6/9,, , and thA cotilytot le Mulcted to Atte& If Ministers wen . ittee on the plan for thitolain.titation on the continue long, from dbe alga the annuitaits. As ,sultstantial relief to the co arand-,klaval and Militiryiiinasiani. Officers on half-pay werellab*to bi put an anti in .rilistve it from the Salt GREZIPELL rosiqand said" . that he took the. the event of, war, to be slat to foreign climates, and' hoped the Member for N t 0000rtunity..of expressing his opinion on the thus be exposed to loss of life; and as contingencies most) would not be induc . .• _ L._ rwhigsht arise for which no compensation could be given, of movinf for a repeal