Star. — London, England, 1822-07-18 00:00:00

remembered that some itif ther;e Wae eat indsat Home were proprietors of their-own seats, and the nominees of others. Many of the privileges Alibied by that House, he objected to; and tow one SW* than that which gave its Members exemption limn personal ar rest. This might be a very proper privilege when , Parliaments were of short duration, and when they , sat for only about forty days ; but at preterit this pri- I vilege was nothing more than a protection to the siis- i honest against the payment of their debts. And yet it was altogether inconsistent ; for, according to the legal provisions, a Member ought not to be in debt at' all ; at he was obliged, on taking leis teat, to swear to-the possession of his qualifications in landed pro perty, dear of all incumbrance, which meant vir tually that he was not in debt. On the whole, he should decidedly object to the exercise of the power claimed, as it was now, by the House. In thus de ciding he did not look at the person, but at the prin •ciple, and the object which the House appeared to wave in view. It followed, therefore, that he should vote against any motion personally affecting the Gen tleman who had just left the Bar, and he should cer tainly take the sense of the House epon such a motion., Mr. S. WORTLEY agreed with the Hon. Baronet, that the breach of privilege, if any, had ben caused by the fault of the House itself. It suffered its de bates to be reported, and therefore ought not to ex pect that every person commented upon in those de bates should sit down quietly under imputations which might be cast upon him. There could be no doubt that the Hun. and Learned Gentleman who bad been alluded to (Mr. Abercromby) had brought forward his motion in a fair and proper manner; but if that Hon. and Learned Member had been misin formed, it would be unjust to deprive a person re ferred to by the Hon. and Learned Member, of the right to defend himself. He therefore should also vote with the Hon. Baronet against any motion having the punish . ern of Mr. Hope for its object. Mr. CANNING said his opinion on the present subject might be stated in a very few words. It ap pealed that the House had already decided the para gr.aph ill question to be a breach of privilege. He was not present at the debate on that subject, and it was now too late for him to give an opinion upon it. The question now before the House was merely whe ther the Gentleman who had left the Bar was the in dividual who had committed that breach of privi lege? He should 'Bte for the present motion, be cause it affirmed that proposition; but be did not say that he was prepared to cancer in any vote which went to impose any, even the slightest punishment upon Mr. Hope. He should vote for the motion, be cause it embraced a mere matter of fact. Mr. COURTENAY said, that he conceived the present motion merely conseitilientiarupon that which ,had been agreed to by the House on a former even.' ing, he had not thought it necessary to state what was the ultimate course he intended to submit to the consideration of the House. As this had been, how ever, somewhat inconveniently anticipated, be would, with the permission of the House, state the nature of the motion with which he intended to follow up the present, should it be agreed to by the House.—,[lt was here suggested to the Hon. and Learned Meinber that the present motion might beat once disposed ofj. The SPEAKER then put the question, which was agreed to without a division. Mr. COURTENAY then rose to propose his ulte rior proceedings. He in the first place disclaimed being a party to the approbation bestowed on Mr. .Hope's address; and be also disclaimed any inten t ion to oppress that Gentleman by the weight of .p ower which the House possessed. Every one would • gree that the privilege of speech in that House was etessary for the good of the people; but in the pre • ent instance he had been induced to call the atten tion of the House to the publication, to prevent by the interference of the House the serious conse quences which he apprehended from a personal ren contre between the parties. Mr. Hope had now given such an explanation as in his opinion tended to; satisfy the House that he had not intended any dis respect towards the House, and therefore he thought the /Luse 'should not now press the matter further against him, and in "pursuance of that opinion, he should now move as a Resolution, " That the Speaker be directed to communicate to Mr. Hope, that the House had voted him guilty of a breach of privilege, '.ut in consideration of the explanation he had given, he House would proceed no further against him." Sir R. WILSON said, that this was a breach of .rivilege that the House was more bound to look at h:us any other. Nothing was more hurtful to the freedom of debate, than to allow censures on Mem bers to pass unnoticed. It was necessary, to prevent any personal consequences, from the course alopted by the House. Sir R. FERGUSSON said he had no wish to keep op any irritation which unfortunately existed; but the respect he bore to an excellent friend who was absent (Mr. Stuart), compelled him to antics a para graph in Mr. Hope's pamphlet of a most libellous mature, reflecting on Mr. S. It was that which in -trod uced the expression describing Mr. S. as " the heartless ruffian who sought revenge by means of his minions, whom he ordered to bind the arms of his victim." This assertion respecting Mr. Stuart, he (Sir R. Fergosson) declared in his place in Parlia ment, to be one of the most maliciOus falsehoods that had ever disgraced the press. Mr. Hope, when he introduced this, must hare been aware that the fact isestion had been denied by Mr. Stuart. He (Sir P. Feigusson) thought it necessary to notice this, lest an impression should go abroad unfavourable to a gentleman who was respected by all who knew him.' Mr. BROUGHAM said he hid ho dolsbt thatthe privileges of the House had Ista briikent.ncir was it merely, as had been stared by the gentleman •at the ear, a technical breach of privilege. This was not like a braich arising from the mere_pablication or the proceedings of the House. under the failisigs by which Mr. Hope was actuated, he would bathe's.* man to criticise the language too minutely. The in vestigation had been only begun, as the papers bababeen ordered to be laid on the table. Mr. Hope, well as others, was upon his trial, and that war al reason for as lenient a punishment as possible. 'lthrtl he must say that .a substantial. breach of privilege had been committed ; as a direct attack had been made on a Member of Parliament in the discharge of Isis duty. The language was such as, it it had been used b ) one Member to another, would have called for the instant animadversion of the Chair. Hii Ho. :leasable Friend had Wien charged - with doing that in / j ~ - .71.01pre . • "" 1 ".70/ 110,* -4- - •- - • - ld be i voted a breach Of p r ivildie,l4 et c 7 keeet& to z t ass._ In his c 4ul4 the Home .___ einilientag Is t p i i i arec o scairt ld at - Cede' to The a third ' the ' mu m s ' • 'Li t IL ress. motion of his Hon. Friend. There was no example' Put " ttiislitiation p or *r *hat a person so situa te d h a d b een l et olf wiehosit any every 41 itealiteate-ekelebeLisset,' wi t s either a filk punishment, in consequence of an explanation. .But an enessysind then.sayors he had beard no explanation; all that the party. mid oout coltduct... . Ale was has:o 4 ; t y amu to l i ve d :thet a butil. thilitn. was, that he acted under the imp:mine ted x,nd.l;ea..nter 4 • Getitlem . 151 r. Abercrornby,) feelings. No denial bad been made by Mr. ' Hope that meted he Was let:it-ant prthe. ace of the SCotob lie had intended to provoke his Hon. Irrieiid to Bar. But, in consee' treiiie of the 'statement made, breach of the peace. If be was allowed to leavi the both " teas Hawse nerd ibe 'Rabb - *e had lama a -icor bar of the House in that manner, never had the. harsh , and top" staitr ofMr..Hope. He bid .no, House been placed in so contemptible a vitiation, and. sloubt.that the Poo. Gentleman would hate done as: which, little as the Member for Westmiaster valued: "he said, "and corrected any err into which he.had , its privileges, even he could scarcely wish to witness. fallen. Mr. Hope had ititedlsis case with it frankness' (The 'Mon. Gentleman tat down antidikuidUheeriug). that surely was not "tfewrisatg — Of repran . and. Mr.i Lord BINNING had hoped that this unpleasant Hope Was to be treated as one who, being placed in a. affair had been hastening to a termination, till he tryingsitisation s had frankly told the House heard the speech of the Learned Gentleman. Inge - must vindicate his character, even though in so doing neral it was a rule, after an explanation had been he ihould be so unfortunate as to incur the' • "are given, to treat any case with the greatest possible of the House. lenity. He would appeal to the House, if they had Lord A. HAMILTON said, that theltioneefb,:tn he ; ewer heard a more fitai—(Lord cheers from the Op. sympathy with Mr. Bar, bad forgetten the erns pesition)—he would repeat the word, a more firm, .pithy due to his Hon, Friend. Thepreed vot e . or more respectful e x pl anat i on to t h e H ouse ? M r. was not cons i stent with what was due*lir ao the Hope had stated, that he had no intention whatever to House or to his Hononrable Neil It wain fact a violate the privileges of the House, for which, as well mere nullity. tss for the House itself, he professed the most profoUnd Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH anted; thafhe had - respect. His Learned Relation (Mr. Hope), had stated, been ignorant of the practice of the Scotch Bar. He that he had found both his character and prospects in- had no objection to any lenity that might be shewn jured. He (Lord Binning) could state, that had there to Mr. Hope. been any prospect of the charges against Mr. Hope Mr. BROUGHAM wished to know if the Hon. and the Lord Advocate being discussed this Ses- and Learned Gentleman would introduce the motive, sion, that letter would never have been written.— as assigned by the Member for Ynareshorough, and 1 1 He (Mr. Hope) had been stated as having been a the President of the Board of Trade? Counsel in a casein which he had not been Counsel; Mr. COURTENAY acquiesced and moved that' and as having acted with a view of prejudicing an the words " His eapressions of regret," be introduced. unfortunate Gentleman on his trial. He would have The original motion was then withdrawn, and the been ashamed of his Hon. Relation, if he had not amended one substituted. given such charges an indignant refutation—(f/ear) Mr. BROUGHAM trusted, that the words would —but his Hon. Relation had never accused the Hon. be left in under all circumstances," for otherwise Member (Mr. Abercrontby) of wilful misrepresents- the House could not commit, in future, Printers and tion. It had been stated by the Learned Gentleman, Reporters, or persons whose politics might run cou that the two Advocate Deputes had patronized pub- ter to that of the majority of the House. lications that led directly to crime, bloodshed, and Mr. COURTENAY said, the omission was units murder. That had been all proper, had the facts tentional. The words were then introduced. been true. He was sorry that the Member for Knares- Lord A. HAMILTON suggested, whether the Re borough (Sir J. Mackintosh) had lent the authority of solution was not putting words into Mr. Hope's mouth, his name to such unfounded accusations, and had ani- which he had never used? He heard no expression of madverted on what he termed the furious zeal of the regret from him. two Advocate Deputes. It had been truly said, that Mr. COURTENAY hoped the Noble Lord would Mr. Hope was upon his trial, and he trusted that the believe, that he would not have introduced the words House would do nothing to prejudge the cause. Mo- if he had not heard them.—The Resolution was then tives had been imputed, that, had they been true, agreed to. would have prevented any Gentleman from culti- Mr. HOPE was then called in and discharged by eating the acquaintance of Mr. Hope. The House the SPEAKER. should recollect, that the breach of privilege, on the Mr. COURTENAY moved that William Menzies, part of Mr. Hope, had been founded on a breach of Esq. be called to the Bar (which was ordered) and privileges connived at by the House in the publica-. told by the &MAUER the nature of the Resolutions of tion of the debates of the House. His Hon. Rela- the House. He was then shewu his letter, which he Lion could not have preserved his station in the circle admitted. On being asked what he had to offer in of society in which he moved, had he not taken the explanation, step he had done. Mr. Mzsztes began, in a low tone of voice, by Mr. ABERCROMBYlansented that any act of his stating, that he was most anxious to assure that Ho should have interrupted the usual business of the nourable House, that he had always entertained, and House. He was sensible of the impression made by still did entertain, a profound respect for that Ho- Mr. Hope's letter, but while he had a seat in that nourable House, and that nothing had given him House, to that House only would he give any expla- greater pain than to know that he had done anything nation- 7 (Hear,hear).—At the time he made his state- to offend against its privileges. Having observed in meat he did not know how far the Advocate Deputes the Courier Newspaper the report of a speech of a were responsible for the paper; and he was also ig- Member of that Honourable House, containing a se norant of the practice at the Scotch bar in the signa- vere attack on his conduct, made, as he conceived, tare of papers. He had stated that the case of Borth- under the erroneous idea that he had acted on a par wick was one of great oppression, and he was still of titular occasion in an official capacity, he felt him the same opinion. Had he been informed in a pro- self called upon to address the Honourable Member per manner that he had fallen into any error, he to whom it was ascribed. As the Honourable Mem would have been the first to have admitted and cor- ber had acted upon false information, he considered rected the mistake—(Cheering). it to be his duty to that Honourable Member and The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was happy at to himself to state, how false was the information he the tone and temper of the speech or the Learned had received, and how much-be had been deceived. Gentleman who had just spoken. *Much, in reference He had published that statement in the hopes that to the debates of the House, would depend on the the Hon. Member would in his place state the real termination of this affair. No doubt could exist as facts of the case. In a few days after be had so to the breach of privilege to publish the debates at all. written he received an answer from that Hon. Mem- The present case was not to be 'looked at too nicely, ber, 'in which be said, that out of regard for the but with reference to the general practice. In the case privileges of Parliament he could not permit hinv.; alluded to Mr. Hope had nothing to do as Advocate self to give any explanation on anything which ap-. Depute; and he would put it to the Hon. Gentleman, peared in a Newspaper; but he a dmitted that the . or to any other Member, if his conduct would not report was substantially correct. However much b e have been similar in the case of a similar mistake?— regretted the course pursued by that Hon. Member; He Conceived that Mr. Hope had balanced between he acquiesced in -it. He then felt himself called upon! his respect for the privileges of the House and his to address the Editor of the Newspaper in question t. anxiety for the vindication of his character. The and he begged to assure that House that he had not motion of his Learned Friend was substantially an other intention than to vindicate his own character; admonition to Mr. Hope, though the word was not before the world. If he had thought any other coc H mentioned, and he hoped would be adopted by the struction could be placed on what he wrote, he would House—(Hear, hear). not hate written it. He could not but feel that the Mr. TIERNEY could not agree with the Resolu- charges preferred against him in that report were un tion of the Learned Gentleman. If it were adopted, warranted, groundless, and false. Considering the ef-, no man ever left the bar of that House so triumph- fect th ey were likely to produce to his prejudice in hisl antly as Mr. Hope. He must say, that the speech of professional character, be had put that statement is j Mr. Hope was not satisfactory to him ; as he had a Newspaper, which had been voted a breach of the stated, that, notwithstanding his respect for the pri. privileges of the House of Commons. He had, in vileges of the House, he felt compelled to adopt the the first instance, written to the Hon. and Learned course he had done. He by no means meant to say Gentleman, being convinced that what had appeared that a person attacked in that House should have no was gross and calumnious misrepresentation. The remedy; but there were various methods, without course which he had subsequently taken was solely any infringement on the privileges of the House. with a view to the vindication of his character. He Abuses would never be detected it the persons so de- had now only to assure the House, that in anything tecting them were liable to personal attack. Simply which he had done, he had net the slightest inten to read the Resolution to Mr. Hope, would be to him don to provoke a breach of the law, nor any idea *great triumph, Which it could not be the intention that acting as he had acted, he should commit a of - the House he should enjoy. He should oppose breach of the privileges of that House. the Resolution, unless something in the nature of re- Mr. MENZIICS bowed, and withdrew. primand was inserted. Should the Resolution pass, Mr. W. COURTENAY said, after the speech which the doors of the House would be shut against all in- they had just heard, he thought the most consistent quiry into the. conduct of public delinquents. The course Mould be at oecitto declare, that in come course adopted onto be fatal to the rights and pri- quence of the full and satisfactory explanation which vileges of the House, and to the freedom of debate. had been offered, no further proceeding was neces- Mr. WYNN had supiscirted the motion made on a nary. He therefore conceived, under all thecircum format evening, as he conceived the present ease to stances of the case, that he should. meet the unani be a substantial breach of the privileges of the House. ,moss fading of the House, by moving. " That Ms. poblication of the speeches was only tole- Menzies be discharged from further attendance." - raid, no *ember could be called upon on account *Mr•BROUWiIAbf role a monad t he- m o t ion of Of the report of his speeches. Though the conduct the Hon. Gentlenaaa. He fait that the House of the Gmalentan lately at the bar could not be jus- reason to be satisfied with the real • explammen aad, titled, yet' it ans , greatly extenuated. Had he ani- vindication of Ins conduct which had O f seistdverted on the atitemeat in the Newspaper, not the Learned Geatlallalta Win) had isaft preSataaaag to. be correct, no impropriety would their Bar . He Genteaded that as that. hats. Isom dramiliitted,,. 'wished to r ep s d - t oe ; eo„ view to Llama d as peace, and no wish to ani. .ounce as i nsi e vatt ton e t r as- the iiii t saty oT fringe the privileges of the House s but had merely , , - aesireint rtioviii it' faints s vnitte-dnerges con se report, nothing further wat'lletiLitUry. him highly satidfsesory that the matter J terminate thus. Aber what had passed, he . that,the priirileges'a r- dre Home were as safe as inw_the 'honour of all she parties c The istotion for dissinerin from fur iher *Was then Rt'ltts4 Animist. . . siker.* AM**, . tolt;nel IVANYES.sand g ritslash frig:ate in the whine - Aare leant Shy . guns, ye Turki - sh jramf n , ol d some British banters. li e wished to knew if !lie ,Noble Lord meant to all ow this gross breach of hi s Poreign Enlistment Bill? . , . "'he Ittirinip of LbiliDOMMll.ltlrsaid, thn; she :'ere from the Pacha of tgy pt with lituseed f aid a collection for . the British Mingo m.. .An aßph cation was made to allow )3rip:l3 seamen to navigute ertn hoei . tk r answewas,„ that there could 'lke no 'objection, provided he lef t them at .l4 4 i ta , 0 4 ,0_ Silted her home with his own people. Military stoles and guns were refused, as well as the purChase of two frigates for the Paiha's service, because it would 'blase the neutrality. Colonel DA VIES mid, the secondin told him, boastingly, that he was going to cruise• against the Greeks, and that she had '5B guns, and a ins and ammunition. • The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had stated what •had appeared itehisOlSce. If she did anything against the Greeks, they could complain to this Go. vei nrnent. Dr. LUSHINGTft said, a great object would be gained by the Koble Lord undertaking that no more men would be allowed to this vessel, as there was ho necessity to navigate her to Malta. Mr.C. HUTCHINSON said, the Noble Lord would recollect that the Pacha of Egypt was not an inde. pendent Sovereign. He was a servant of the Porte, nd he had sent a fleet to assist it against the Greeks The British crew of this vessel might be so dispersed throughout the Turkish fleet as to enable them to destroy that of the Greeks. Mr. F. ROBINSON said, this vessel came here as a merchantman; if she was now fitting out as a man of war, those who entered on board of her without an Order in Council, were subject to the Foreign Enlist ment ♦ct. Mr. BARING regretted that this country was la bouring under a base aspersion, that we were assist ing the Turks against the Greeks. This was the opi nion of every statesman on the Continent, that he had conversed or communicated with. .• Os place oisich te Ifitsalf Tcrow to . loilitit4 Bo bilastallarlf4 : ' fi i . desirk . 4eirei lirim .. I. . (Mr. diaat+orabyllsisfbdeln eforgedtlii_foOiss **the . ~. • , Waled is the re party gives--a &size *hi& no elltoThir 'Ol 4* . • -trosirlhedW h was to him Bomb oodd base allowed to Mite; Mai vihillso WO 1 114141 ifilairtifik Gel Wait:lee irthieptil- should termina mao out of the lioeseVuopl i d be allow e d! is w..., vilitroefthallisemoseitotwillistaidiog . felt that,the pr With every wish that Mr. Rope should be looy I.of UP Nkosap. to moors* to what bit boo to was, t h e l i c t ocu i [Tatted ht he c'eulit nnt eee'heiv. &OA". the .1141 c I. 7i^ilig . isiured Lamar? In Ain PAY_ *IMMO OWI t ‘i'. '.......1 _ SOUTH AMERICA. Sir J. MACKINTOSH wished to know if we had made any communication to the Spanish Govern ment on the subject of recognizing the independence of South America ? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that no negociation was actually on foot, but that a commu nication had been made to Spain on the subject. Sir It. WILSON wished to know when the distri bution of the remaining prize -money for Egypt would take place ? Sir C. LONG said, it would as soon as eight claims were determined. Sir JAMES M ACKINTOSH put his question in another shape—whether the discussion between Spain and us, as to the independence of South America, began tb with us? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said this would leave the subject more obscure than - ever, and there fore he declined answering it. ~~ - • BYER SILL. Mr. BROUGHAM wished to take the Beer Bill the first thing to-morrow ; and therefore he hoped his Hon. Friend, the Member for Montrose, would put off his motion. Mr. HUME acquiesced, and postponed his Reso lutions till Tuesday next. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER also pin off the Committee of Eupply, to make room for the motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Mr. BROUGHAM was ready to go on. Mr. F. BUXTON said, as this was a dropped order, it would be inconvenient to take it to-night. Mr. BROUGHAM said his only object was full 'discussion, and therefore he would pledge himself to bring on the Bill at half-past four o'clock to-morrow. SUPPLY.--IRISH ESTIMATES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved, that the House should go into a Committee of Supply on the Irish Estimates, when Mr. GOULBURN moved a grant of £17,000 for Protestant Gartered Schools in Ireland. Mr. HU ME called the attention of the House to the number of charitable grants fur Ireland, which Were promised to be reduced, but on the contrary the number of them had increased. la iaoo these grants were only ,C 217,000, and now they were above £400,000. It was very unpleasant to be obliged to vote .against these charitable grants, but Ins duty to the Public re quieted it. if the mosey voted were only properly expended, it would educate three times the number of persons that now were taught in Ireland. He denied that the Catholic Clergy were wrens to - educatices,micept such as would endange; their religion. It was his opinion that they should attend to the education of -Catholic children rather than to the Protestants, who had plenty of tassels appointed for them. Some regulation should be adopted tor the establishment of schools in Ireland as was doze in Scotland, by the Scottish Parliament of 1696. He wished the ntoney to be reduced to selo,ooo, and that divided between the Catholics and Protestants. Mr. GOULBORN said, last year this grant was £W,OOO. Mr. liU ME said the estimates were the same as last year. .Mr. GOULBURN said that might be; but this was the lowest vote for some years, it having been above £40,000. He esaimained that the institutions of charity were more numerme in Dublin, in propurtioa, than anywhere else. Their charity seemed to provide for• every possible exigency. Ireland had a peculiar claim to grants from the pohhe money for charities, be. came the Union had brought here her subscribing papas. the. This charity provided for their religious and moral in. stmeties WSW they could be sent out to service of some hind.— He hoped the House would not regtet.bestowing a grant for the education and establishment in life of 1700-Protestant orphans. After sow observations from Mr. Mr. literemmok.n., and Hr. u., the vote was agreed to. ,55,006 was voted to the foundfing Hospital in Ireland. eile s tifte for the Association for Suppressing Vice. ‘lO,llOO for the Kildare-street Establishment for Education of the Poor. £4,000 far SchaelLestablithed by voluntary *attributions. X 7,400 for the Hibernian Socifty. if r.r the ROM= Catholic Seminary. _ .1111:00 fur the , Royal Cetit Artathetitot. • 4:1,000 for the Royal Duhlln Sectary. • • SIAS for the eareem.of ttre Twining SorierfOriblit .111101 for the tidal Irish Maoism. • . ; ,E 509 for the Ce&misaiwas for Charitably 11114 . 116ei Beglosta. eS$57 to mita good the Miaow of thesaestist atail l owe is ism. 111viiiitealper;voise toed 'grew to,' qhe %anaemia freierat pygmy awl the Wear atijoashod at Halflaat Two O'CIOCk. I JA rM 113 " 1 -