Star. — London, England, 1821-02-06 00:00:00

Wes mottos* piremuseneedt a&Mnsu beelfoe he voki sap of t . againsther), outcome as she tad done, boldly to face her accusers, and demand a They all knew the universal distress that pre- TTat ...that time, es there does at presents and that cosiderable fernientation existed all through the How that - fermentation bad been created, it cSitt o :i'd not now stop to inquire; but he would was that a . time to bring forward those mea -410„ to agitate and distract the country, and in-• still furth'r the discontent' that had previ cliigially existed?* He was thoroughly persuaded there i rasa base faction in the country, who were labour obvert the COnstitution, and by every spe ;„, to W e l," contumely and abuse and caricatures, to de- Iv y the Religion and defile the. morality of the na ;o. and %VW that (he would boldly ask) a titne to . 1 ,.. te the sluices of obscenity, and pollute the mo .;;;Is of the country ?—( Lond anal trpeated cheers.) g e WA, glad to hear it admitted by the Right Hon. 6tot l em an who preceded him (Mr. Bathurst), that taws case impeachment might be resorted to. He t a d understood that it was the opinion of high and learned legal authorities, that it could not. But a l t hough go lawyer, nor even pretending to legal tro dedge, or more than an ordinary share of com mon sense. he bad been of opinion that it could have leen resorted to, instead of the objectionable pro ceeding—a Bill of Pains and Penalties. Far Justice Blackstone distinctly lays it down, that any Peer of , be realm may be proceeded against for any crime, y i mpea chment. He mentioned this for the purpose of asking on what grounds the case of the Queen was to be taken out of the pale of the Constitution ? Was it because the Queen was not considered a subject, or because s h e was proceeded against by the State?— Now it could not he disputed that there were prece dents that might be adduced in favour of Bills of l'Ains and Penalties; but of that measure he thought i t w as merehonoured in the breach than. in the ob iervance.“--(Hcor. hear).—ChielJustice Hale bad raid it down,'that it was a course that might be pur sued, if required by some great necessity ; but that it was ultimo( rentedimrs et pessiouon, and should never be minted to while any other could be had—( fleas). /beHonourahle Member then alluded to the case of the Earl of Strafford. Those were times of violence which he hoped would never recur. He trusted there sever would again he such a trial in this country— /Nor). But if there were anything like it, it was disatoompt to separate the Aristocracy from the Wy dfaihe People—( Loud cheers). Ile should have viewed the conduct of Ministers with much more se tisfactien (if, indeed, he could view any part of their conduct with satisfaction), had they granted to her Idajesty a specification of ere places in which the crimes alleged against her had been committed.— This would have served the Queen's case most mate rially. They say they granted her a considerable adrantage by:allowing her time to prepare for her .defence; he contended, that suffering the case for the prosecution to go forth to the world without any comment, was actually prejudging the question— (Hear, hear).--lie was sorry to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman whin preceded him speak so lightly of the People—(Hear, dreax)—calling their just Petitions clamouis. He was quite convinced the great majo rity of the nation were opposed to these measures. By attending to what took place at the different Pub lic Meetings throughout the kingdom, it would ap pear quite manifest, and he thought it was worth the consideration of Mioisters to see whether the voice of the nation were in -their favour or not. He was quite aware that at these Meetings packing had been resorted to; bye he had not beard of a single in stance where they were able to peck a majority— Rear, hear).--He himself had been a loyal ad- Jresser, until he had been aware of their object. Under these circumstances, he was justified in stating, that the great majority of the nation are decidedly hostile to the present Administration, and to the measures that had been ad .pted against her Majesty. lie would ask, was it wise at the present day to create a division in the country ? Could any man sit down and coolly consider the state of the nation, and say, that to create a division between the people and the aristocracy was not a most unwise and pe llets measure? Could any man deny it who re flected on the state of the nation ? Look to the debt alone. What was there now to pay it. when the.great hews on which it was supported had been removed ? It leas a measure that could not be anticipated with out the greatest apprehension. The artificial bases on which it had rested had now been removed, and where Were now the means to support it? It might be said that this was foreign to the subject. But he introduced it for the purpose of sheaving the neces sity of onion, of a complete amalgamation of in terests. We - must all coalesce, without which the country cannot stand—(Loud cheers). Look to the situation of that House. Considerable discredit had been already thrown on it, and he feared that before the present Session concludes, that discre dit would be increased—(hear, hear).--If he were allowed to offer an opinion, he would say, be careful that Tour hearts beat in unison with the pulsation of the People— {Loud cheers). But let it not be a feint or lathed, but a vigorous, a healthy, and natural pul sation—(Loud cheering). He contended that the Queen was entitled to all her rights as fully as if no' trial had taken place. Law, justice, and policy, de mended that the Queen should be restored to all her. privileges. He would not trespass longer on their. time --(Hea r , hear). He had only to add, that any sentiments which he had delivered did not proceed horn party motives. Ile was unknown to either side ref the House as a party man. Whatever he had said, &wed from a thorough conviction of propriety, and from a feeling that the Petitions and just demands of generous People should be met with a spirit of con ciliation--(Load and continued cheersfollosvcd the de 'ivery of the Honourale Gentlensan's speech). Mr. BANKES complimented the .last speaker, * 6 th upon the matter of -which a great part of his Vetch was cum posed , and the manner in which it was delivered. rp s c7l l % many of its-topics, it was im- Possible not to agree with the sentiments so ably ex- Pussed, and most particularly those which enforced the, necessity of union between the different classes of the community. It must be with a feeling of dis -14„ t• and almost with a degree of -shame, that the Hasse a • • and t he count!) , found themselves occupied b 7 the subject of that debate, at a time when so much l t*Puttant business remained Upon their hands, and mural fur -their most serious consideration. There vs " the *We s) stem of domestic poik ; the weight of debt.the disastrous pressure_ uponmor most ma-, terial sourcesofmationallprosperity, and most pad cularly upon the Agricultural Interests—the troubled state of the South of Europe, and the alarming symp toms which it held out; when these things were pass,[ ing within and without the country, it was with dis gust and shame that the House must find itself occu pied by the discussion then before it. But when they were at last, as he trusted, coming to some definitive conclusion upon the question, he must, in a few mo ments, state his reasons for the vote which he intended to give. The Honourable Members who. had moved and seconded the Resolution, had fairly avowed their purpose to be an accusation against his Majesty's Mi nisters, not merely brought forward.as a theoretical subject, but as a practical and substantial motion, which, if carried, could lead to no other result than their dismissal from his Majesty's service—(icar). With regard to this point, he did protest that, after the best consideration he had been able to give to the subject, and not being satisfied with the transac tion as it stood—(lkar, .hear) — ti eing contented nei dier with the beginning, the eontinnation, nor the end of that transaction- -I flearl—he must yet, in jus tice to the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, declare, that he thought it extremely difficult for anybody to say what would have been the wiser course to pursue.— It appeared to him (Mr. Bankes), that Ministers did all in their power to avert the evil of her Majesty's [coming to this country. And he wool] ask the House if the greatest evils had not been the consequence of her coming to it ?—(Hear.)—The Hon. and Learned ,Gentleman to whOm he had before alluded was COM. insissioned to make the proposition, and was said to ;have it in writing. But they were told that this Com missioner, when he met het Majesty coming to Eng land, that this Ambassador never delivered his cre dentials—( Cheers ).—Upon a subsequent occasion in that House, he knew not for what reason (whether it might be that something pressing upon the Hon. and Learned Geutleman's mind prevented him) hut, for some reason or other, he then said that he could not explain his conduct then, but should have an op.. 'portunity of doing so hereaf,ei. If he (Mr. Bankes) might take the liberty of putting him in mind of that declaration, perhaps the moment was now come when that oppportunity wise afforded—(Loud cheering).— And more particularly if, as he had understood, the Hon. and Learned. Gentleman had not presented the written proposition which bad been placed in his hands, but called upon his Noble companion, upon that ocea.ion, to make a communication to her Ma jesty not reduced to writing, and consequently less authentic. In compliance with the directions of a large majority of that House, he (Mr. Bankes), in 'conjunction with two Hon. Friends of his, had after ; wards submittee certain arrangements to her Majesty, r which had been as unexpectedly rejected as those previously made by Ministers. Under all the circurn-1 stances of the case, there appeared ample reason to conclude that hi: Majesty's Ministers, in making that [ proposition, acted under the presumption that they 'were following the c urse most congenial to her Majesty's wishes. If blame was to be attached, he believed that it must be divided, and he was not sure that Ministers deserved to bear a part. " In the pre sent state of parties, it is perfectly plain to every one," (said the Hon. Baronet, pointing to the two sides of the House), " that if you exclude that parts, you raise this." If the present Ministers went out, those who sat on his side (the Opposition) must form their ! successors ; and he was willing to do every justice to the talents of the Hon. Gentlemen, which he consi- ' dered as perfectly competent to conduct the affairs of the State. One of those Gentlemen (Mr. Tierney) had candidly and honestly expressed himself a can didate for power. And he (Mr. Bankes) wished that every public man would act as openly as lie had done in that respect. It was a sentiment highly honourable, for he was not one of those who encouraged the viler slanders which were attached to Placemen upon all occasions. He would now advert to what fell from the last speaker, with respect to the desperate fac-' tion which existed in this country, but which he hoped had not extended itself far into that House.— He must say, however, that the Honourable Gentle man of whom he had been speaking, I.ad of late given that faction too much countenance. He did not believe that any principle of union existed between them ; but there WAS an evident system of co-oera tion which had been to him the cause of much alarm —(Cheering, and a laugh from the Opposition).—A Noble Lord whom he saw (Lord Folkstone), seemed to make it a matter of merriment, but in his (Mr. Bankes's) opinion, it was not'so for the country. He could not suppose that if Honourable Gentlemen came triumphantly into power, they would forfeit the pledges which they had given, even to men so dangerous. They must keep their faith; and that circumstance gave him great apprehensions for the measures which they would introduce. lii the two last months of the late lamented Sovereign's reign, two very important Bills were passed—one for Pre venting Seditious Meetings, and the other for re straining the Liberty of the Press. The Honourable Gentlemen opposed those Bills as being unconstitu tional, and not rendered necessary by the state of the country. They were for allowing the Press to sevel in its utmost excess; and with them banishment for the second offence of libel was not to be endured. His opinion was so entirely different upon those sub jects, that theirs had created in his mind the greatest alarm for the safety of the country. " What they call liberty," said the Honourable Member, " I call licentiousness; because I think that at this mo ment the greatest dangers which can assail a free country, are to be seen in the daily poisons which ate circulated and disseminated throughout the nation." Any Gentleman coming into .offiee, botuid .to the repeal of those Bills, never must expect to meet with his support. The party now in Opposition, must also come into power pledged to a Reform in .Parlia ment. Not to that gradually progressive Reform sthkh would make a blot here and a blot there as circumstances would warrant, hut to some system which was to supersede at once the present mode of administering the Constitution. He did not accuse ' the party of entertaining those wild doctrines of uni versal suffrage, and other visionary delusions, which were employed to deceive the People; but they.staod pledged to some sweeping, and what the factioUs called eiheient; measures of Reform. He could nor, therefore, see them come in under such auspices, without entertaining most serious and unqualified apprebeasion-(/har, IStrar)i—Upen the question of Catholik Emanripation-hesalati pleferred.the.preeent Ministry.; because.the granting of those claims must necessarily be the consequence of a change—(f;lent.). He was. aware that some of the present Ministers were in favour of such a measure, but then othe:s were hostile to it, and while the Cabinet was . divided,l the question would be kept off. Without intending' to peas an unqualified panegyric on Ministers, he would say that, for a series of years, they had car ried on the government by measures that had gene rally demanded his support. But it was said on the other side, that them must be a complete change in the system of government. Now, he did not know whatabat. meant—(Hear, hear). He had never heard it. explained—(hear, hear). With repett to the last. French war, the. Opposition side had denied its policy. and looked with despondency at the re• sources of the country. Under the management of the present Ministers, the most glorious war had been put an end to by the most glorious peace that had ever been made within the last four centuries. Under all the circumstances which presented themselves to his mind, it was impossible that he could form any de termination but that of opposing the motion. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose, in consequence of what had fallen from the last speaker;_ but did not intend to examine into his consistency or impar tiality for the last forty years. Neither should be inquire into the panegyric which he had passed upon one party, (and which must have been peculiarly grateful to the Noble Lord, who had been sn entirely unused to it of late) while censure bad flowed so Ithundantly upon the other from that impartial Gen tleman—(A laugh). With respect to the French war, notwithstanding the party with whom he 'had• the honour to act had originally opposed it, yet they had not afterwards refused the supplies necessary for carrying it on. They had not then opened just cause for reprehension, as had been done on a former oc casion by the party opposite. As to the glorious Peace of which the Honourable Member had spoken, he was not willing to allow that it was entirely owing to the Noble Lord. For the glorious peace we were indebted to our gallant Captains, and the I high valour and achievements of the Britidi Army. The effects of that glorious peace were to be found in the present state of Europe. He would make no ether observation upon the glorious peace and the glorious alliance, its offspring, but that the Noble Lord himself had been obliged to disavow the acts and principles of his Allies. He had been obliged to say, that such was the nature of their principles as to teed to the destruction of all national inde pendence. He hoped that what had been said in the declaration of the Noble Lord would intimidate them from proceeding in their present course. Out of the mouth of one of their own Allies they had been con demned, and their principles 'denied. These were the effects of that glorious peace which had been so panegyrized by the impartial Member—(Cheers). — Having laid down the basis of his impartiality, he proceeded t o give a proof of it, by stating it to be his opinion that one party only could form the Go vernment of the country. That Hon. Member said that his (Sir James Mackintosh's) friends would be obliged to redeem their pledges. What were they ? First of all, they had attended Public Meetings of the People of England. When had this been charged against Members of Parliament as being entitled to condemnation ? Was it criminal to mix with the People, to ascertain their opinions, and to endeavour to reclaim them, if they bad been misled? If so, it meant that the majority of the House of Commons had declared war against the People of England (Loud cries of " Order!' toith.vehement cheering on the Opposition benches). Lord CASTLEREAGH rose to order. He wished to have the opinion of the Chair, whether, in the most extended exercise of the liberty of expression, it was in order with the rules of' Parliament for a Member to say that the majority of the House of Commons hid declared war against the People of England—(Loud cheering from both sides). The SPEAKER said, there could be only one opi nion, in the House as to the nature of the words which had been spoken. They were highly disorderly. He had confidently expected the Hon. Member to 'explain the words, which were most disorderly. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH contended, that the conduct of a majority of the House had often been opposed to the interests of the People; but there had, ' at the same time, been many Members active and vigi lant in their behalf. He complained of the interrup tion of the Noble Lord, when he was about to explain on the subject of Public Meetings. He belie ve d t h e Honourable Gentleman (Mr. &takes) had a seat in the House during the American war: in that case, he must remember that Public Meetings had been at tended and countenanced by the most eminent men' of that day, such as Sir George . Saville and the Mar quis of Buckingham. The Bills alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman had been quite inefficient; and the .consequence had been, that Public Meetings had been more numerous since they had passed than be fore. They had exasperated, but not restrained the People, and only. served to alienate them from their Rulers. The Press had been more licentious than at any former period, and more treason and blasphemy had been poured upon the Public. The only Reform that the .Honourable Gentleman could tolerate was an inefficient one, and he thus had furnished a strong argument to the enemies of all moderate Reform: in fact, every kind of Reform filled the Hon. Gentle. man with horror, though he did not know whether it was .of .a Weal or a general nature!—(Laughter.) With respect to the subject immediately before the 'jjouse, Ministers, .by their treatment of the Queen, had heen guilty of a high crime and Misdemeanour. Ministers had instituted an inquiry into the conduct of .the Queen, and the result would be most fatal, shook' that House not re-echo the voice of the Pub lic. For the conduct of Ministers not a shadow s of reason was assigned ; for there had been no public necessity, however there might have been a Ministe rial one. If, as the Hon. Member argued, only one ;et of men were fit to govern the country, then there , .eouoso be no ohange, and the argument would apply , equally to the present, and all future Ministers. It 'would, indeed, •immortalize the Hun. Gentleman.— The. evils complained .of, even by the Noble Lord, and the .Hon. Gentleman, had been .only got into under the plea of necessity ' • but almost every man in the country. now considered it as not forming any thhoglike paramount necessity. Ministers had either I to prosecute or not to prosecute. There was no pa ramennot necessity. in this ease. The political' advisees of the: Crown should, have haqwra whether they had a prnhable case which they thought they could maker:mt. That would have been their duty in cases of politica libels; but on this subject they were bound to have known alt the weakness and infirmity of their wit• tresses, and aho the temper and spi. it of tl•e public mind at the time they instituted thi.t prosecution.— pisgrace was cast uion Cie Crown, upkar that Houle, and upon the Country, only to screen those Ministers who had brought that disgrace on everyt? ing sacred is the institutions of the count: y. Tarte was no such disgraceful case of Pains and Pe:lalties since that of Sir J. Fens. ick—a case which must ever be an exception to the law of the land. Mho gave op portunity to the Addressers to trench upon the law ef.their country, but the prosecutors of the Queen? This fatal error would have never been found to have a supporter, but in the Honourable Member for Corte Castle—the impartial suppot ter of an eme lt/sting Administration! The Ministers had made the Monarchy the object of public derision and ridi ctile. They had exposed the private disputes be tweliu the King and Queen ; and had, by the fatal share they had taken in them. brought the country :to the brink of a destructive civil war—(Heer, hear). —lle assared the House, that in all he bad said, his :words flowed more in sorrow than in anger. He. 'feared that they were doomed to pass the remainder of their days in trouble and disquiet; but of all the evils the greatest would be a breach between that House and the People, which, he dreaded, would be widened by the division this night. For, however. a majority of that House might decide, the People bad decided on the censure of ,Ministers by a majority of twenty to one—( Cries of" Hear, hear!" and." No, no !" from the Ministerial side).—The confidence ex pressed by these cheers was what filled him with alarm. He wished for a glorious. peace, and a happy alliance between the House. and the People; and then they might krave the state of Europe occasioned by the glorious peace and happy alliances of Ministers! If Gentlemen, however, decided in favour of Ministers, whose characters their own friends allowed were in. kited by the proceedings against the Queen, and who had clung to place after they had lost power, all be could say was, But he had discharged his duty, and must leave the consequences to futurity (Wear, hear). Mr. PEEL (after some confusion respecting the Member who had caught the eye of the Speaker) be-. gan by making an apology for rising after a speaker of so much experience, but the nature of the debate relieved him from the necessity of following the course of the Honourable Gentleman. Having been absent on all occasions when he could have had an opportunity of delivering his sentiments on this toes/. tion, and holding the same opinion with the majo rity on a former evening, whose decision had been. spoken of in such severe terms by the Honourable Gentleman, he was anxious to state the grounds on which he would have concurred in voting with those who had, in the heat of debate, been designated as having declared war against the People. The expres. sion had, it was true, been afterwards qualified, and he rejoiced that it had been explained in a way con, sistent with the sense of Parliament. He had a pain ful duty to perform ; but he was there to express his honest and independent opinipn, and this he would do, regardless of any impression but that on his own mind, and without party or personal feelings, on the principle of impartial justice. In setting out, he would observe, that he was one who did not concur with. Government in the measure of omitting the Queen's name in the Liturgy, and on these grounds, that there was no inconsistency in continuing it, and at the same time coming boldly forward with the charges which were to be made against her—( /leer). But neither could he have agreed to the motion of the Noble Lord (A. Hamilton), because it took bold of only an insulated solitary peint, and had little or no bearing on the main question ; because it was ill timed; as, if made at all, it ought to have been made last Session; it ought to have been made on the 29th of January, last year, when the order was issued, and not kept till the 26th of January in this.—Why this delay ? And also, because it would have been an act of injustice to visit that act as a crime in Ministers after the same Parliament had distinctly sanctioned it. He would have voted against the motion too,. beause it was calculated to redress no wrong ; be cause it was merely adverse to Government, but no way in favour of the Queen. It was hinted indeed that other resolutions were to follow, but he said, " let us have direct proceedings, and do not make so important a motion a mere corollary to another which can hardly be understood." On these grounds he would have voted with the majority in the case alluded to. He must, however, speak in other terms of the present motion, brought forward by • pother Noble Lord. The manly feeling and straight forward manner in which it was framed and brought before the House, merited every praise. The speeches of the Noble Mover and Seoonder plainly avowed their object to be the removal of Government, and an entire change in the Administration. This had been coupled with mine anticipations of a consequent Reform. He cared not whether it would produce *. form or not. If he thought the . Government justly chargeable with the vindictive spirit attributed to it by the Noble Lord, or with the corrupt love of office as serted by the Hon. Gentleman, he would not look be yond either for his vote. He would rathewrlse fol low, e rlia seelo m th e an nta h r e y Catho l ic‘Rvnenfoldrmthoprpnrta Governme n t Emancipation ence would be a stain upon all Goverrunent—(H eer ). He would found his vote on the view of thei r w h o l e conduct, and examine if it was such as to call for the present grave interposition of the House. lf, upon the whole, he approved of their motives and of th e i r proceedings, though be might differ on point s o f minor importance, he would.meet the motio n w i t h a direct negative. And he put it to Gentlemen oppo site, if it would beiair, now when they saw h ow a ll the currents had set, and how events had run, t o f erns theft better judgment on experience? No; th e y must , in justice, place themselves in the situatio n o f Minis ters, and_must look at things as when the past was the future, and what was now clear, buried in obscurity. lie had already avowed, that he differed from Ali nisters on the subject of the omission of her•Majetty's name from the Liturgy ; he had also heard with re gret a Right Honourable Gentleman withhold thorn her the title of. Queen; and he had further lamented for the answer to her request respecting a ship t.f war. : Such matters, though they could have to weight with men of enlighteued minds, were calcu lated.to make angimpression on the great body of ass Peoßltl -41 3foreves slight eley were, the Public formed