Star. — London, England, 1822-03-02 00:00:00

rte. • • • • lo • J move for" *tending the Redemption A - Si l niaii`ex ' Thuroday the latiev.r._ ;and that on would move for Returns of the Expenses of the Post.Oillee England, Ireland, and Scotland. Mr. SYKES, seeing the Honourable Secretary to the awry in his place, wished to put a question to him, respecting intentions of Government as to continuing the Bounties the Greenland Whale Fishery. Ibis law by which these a._ tiel latre telt allowed would expire in 1823, and be wished to know whether Government intended to renew it ? Government had allowed large bounties to the South Sea Fishery, and be hoped that the Greenland Fishery would be put upon the mine footing, se that no undue preference might be given to one above the other. Dlr. LUSHINGTON replied, that Government had not yet decided upon the coarse which they meant to take, and that the whole matter was now undergoing an investigation before the Boird of Trade. Mr. BF,N NET moved for Returns of the numbs: of Con ‘lets transported from the United Kingdom, from the sth Ja nuary, 1815, to the sth January, 1822, distinguishing their ages, and the terms of their sentences.—Ordered. Mr. II U .)1E moved for Returns of the gross and net Reee- Aim of the United Kingdom, up to the sth of January, 1822,, distinguishing the Revenue of England and Wales, Ireland and Scotland, the expense of the management in each coun try, the rate per cent. at which it was collected, and the amount of the whole. Mr. II I:31E also moved for Returns Of Sums expended for the Wear and Tear of the Navy, from 18:5 to 1821, distin. guisbing the sums laid out in ordinary repairs from those laid out for the building of ships. Also for the sums expended under the Appropriation Act of 1817, arranged under the several heads. Sir JOHN OSBORNE said there was no objection to the production of these papers.—Ordered. Lord A. HA DU LTON presented a Petition from the Meer - =Trades of Kirkcudbright, in Scotland, praying for sothe In the Scotch Burghs.—Laid on the table. Sir GEORGE CLERK brought hp* Return of the num ber of Persons receiving Halfpay Who were in Holy Orders.— Laid en the table. Mr. WILMOT brought In a Bill for regulating the mode of Imintaining Clergymen in Upper Canada. Upon the question that it be read a -first time, Dlr. BENNET wisbeiltra know whether it was true that, by this Bill, a portion of the nelip-divided land was assigned to the Church by way of convenes/Aka for tithes? Mr. WILMOT said, Bit? usual praftke of assigning one seventh part of any district for the support of the Church bad been observed, and the present Bill was only to prevent diiputes as to the claim which the Clergy bad to this land. • Sir ISAAC COFFIN said, it was always customary to assign one-seventh proportion.—The Bill was read. I first time. Mr.W. SMY'f H said that he had, with the permission of the Noble Marquis (Londonderry), last year moved for a variety of Returns respecting the measures which were now 'in progress for the suppressien of the Slave Trade • particularly for such communications as bad passed ' between his Majesty's Govern ment and any foreign Government en the Subject ; and, lastly, with respect to what was called the Mixed Commission at the liavannah. Ile moved alai, with the permission of the Noble Secretary, for similar Returns since that period up to which the former Return was made—namely, the 6th of February. The lion. Gentleman then put. in a motion to the above effect,whieh was agreed to. ' Colonel DAVIES moved for a Return of all Officers of the Army dismissed from the Service without trial by Court Mar tial since the year 1793, specifying the number of each rank. —Ordered. Mr. COURTEN AY gave notice that, on Tuesday, he would muse for the revival of the Committee which sat last year on dal Prison Laws H E!: HY HUNT. Mr. WARRE ruse to present a Petition from the Inhabitants of Taunton, in Sumersetshire, expressing their concern at the sufferings which Mr. Hunt wad' compelled to endure in lkhester Jail. Having upon a former night given his opinion upon the treatment observed towards Mr. Hunt, he would only state that the assertions which he then -made were confirmed by the present Petition; and he was sorry that an Hon. Ba ronet., Member for Sumersetshire (Sir T. Lethbridge), was not in his place, as it would speak conviction to him. It was certainly true that Mr. Hunt was per mitted to see his physician ; but as this was the only person permitted to see him, he (Mr. Warre) con tended that his imprisonment amounted to solitary confinement. The Hon. Member concluded by say ing, that, to his own knowledge, several of the indi viduals who signed this Petition were highly respect able.—The Petition was ordered to lie upon the table, and be printed. Mr. HOBHOUSE said, he was entrusted with a similar Petition from the town of Blackburn, in Lan cashire. This Petition was desewing the serious con sideration of Parliament, and was signed by upwards of 5000 persons. The Petition complained of the treatment to which Mr. Hunt was subjected in Il chester Jail, and concluded by calling upon the House to interfere, and prevent any aggravation of the sentence passed upon Mr. Hunt in a Court of Law. The Petitioners stated, that Mr. Hunt's case had a peculiar claim to the consideration of this House, and in this opinion he (Mr. Hobhouse) en tirely agreed. But perhaps that claim would be re jected, as Mr. Hunt did not belong to that class of men, which an Hon. Baronet last night described as the " legitimate" people of England—(Hear, hear). He (Mr. Hobhouse) did not know what the Hon. Ba ronet meant by the word " legitimate," and if the lion. Baronet had drawn a distinction betvieen the well and ill-dressed people, he would be more intel ligible. He (Mr. Hobhouse) would, however, con rend against the position, that one class of men were more entitled to attention than another. He thought all alike entitled to redress, and, for his part, he would he always ready to give the benefit of his humble exertions to any one who bad a complaint to make—(Hear, hear).—Tbe Hon. Member then pro ceeded to state some details of the treatment of Mr. Hunt, with which the Public are already familiar.— He contended that Mr. Hunt's was a case of novel hardship. It was not to be borne that any set of men should take it on themselves to alter and aggra vate the sentence passed upon Mr. Hunt. The Jailer, Bridle, was detained in his situation for 108 days, after he was declared unfit for the office. This state ment was borne out by the Report of the Commis sioners of Inquiry. The fact was, that Mr. Hunt was then suffering solitary confinement—and sobe-would call it, for it was in every sense equivalent to solitary confinement. He could not forbear paying his tri bute of approbation to the industry and zeal and independence of the Commissioners—and particu larly to Mr. Estcourt, who brought to light so much of the abuse which existed in Ilchester Jail. Mr. Hunt was entitled to credit, for it was by his instru mentality that the investigation was made, and the bad practices of the prison exposed. It appeared, that before that, the Jailer was not restrubied by the . Surgeon, nor the Surgeon by the Coroner, nor was, the toroner himself restrained by the Magistrates,— It appeared, that a weight of ten pounds of iron was appended to one prisoner, who was afraid to com plain. In reading over the Report of the Commis sioners, be could not persuade himself that hew s not readpsetlie scandalous. account of . some maesse net of a tanipbouse in England; indeed, but in some savage country. lie believed it was worse than Bed-, ~c~ ?:i1 FL-7- . .7111. ,7!° pure river —they . r --- - dregs filtered through the sewers. The Hon. Baronet (Mr T. Lethbridge) had said, that hi was sorry Mr. Hunt was ever confined in Ilchester Jail. So was he (Mr. Hobhouse), but 'he was glad for the sake of the. Public—(Hear) —who should regard Mr.. Hunt in the light of a benefactor—(Keer, hear).,—No matter what his failing or his conduct be, it could not be denied but he had rendered a great public service, in exposing theunheard-of atrocities which were prac• tised in Witmer Jail. . . Mr. DICKINSON defended the Magistrates of Se: mersetshire, and said there was a disposition on their, part to adept the suggestions of the Commissioners. Mr. RERNAL supported the Petition. Mr. W. SMITH thought that the case of Mr. Hunt was deserving of inquiry. He had been the cause of a great public gooci. Some nights back, when the i subject of opening letters to and from Members of Parliament wi's brought before the House, it was said no letter beyond a certain weight should be al lowed, and that prisoners had other means of making known their grievances than by letter. He, however, would contend, that there was no better way to com municate their grievances than by_letter. Some Hon. ' Gentlemen thought the exemption from postage was a personal privilege, but it was not for their own personal accommodation only. It appeared from the Report on their table, that a system of irritation was pursued towards the prisoners, even by the Magis trates themselves, or with their knowledge. There was no better way to prevent these abuses than by keeping alive those privileges which the House re served to every one of its Members for very wise purposes: He hoped the Petition would be allowed to lie on the table. Sir ROBERT WILSON made a few observations in support, of the Petition, and read some extracts from the Commissioners Report, which details 4 the cruelties practised towards prisoners,who were afraid to make any complaint. Mr. P. MOORE thought Mr. Hunt particularly entitled to the favour of Government, for having caused the exposure of the wickedness which was carried on' in l)chester Jail. He hoped when any Member of that House heard of any individual being treated with cruelty, he would take it up and have it inquired into, lest the case might be one day his own. Mr. Hunt had been cruelly treated ; and unless Mi nisters punished the aggressors they would not do their duty, for the doing of which they were so well and so amply paid by the country. 'The Hon. Gen tleman then went into a narrative of the abuses, which, as he heard from an Hon. Friend of his, then no more, existed in the jails of Ireland, under the ad ministration of Lord Hardwicke. The greatest abuses prevailed in the Jail of Kilmainham in Ireland, and although the jailer was removed, yet he was found on the Pension List,with £4OO a-year !—(Hear, hear). believed it was the intention to give a similar pension to Bridle!—(Hear). —.The Petition was then brought up, read, and ordered to be printed. Mr. Alderman WOOD said he held in his hand two Petitions on the same subct. One of them was from the individual himself, t he presenting of which be would postpone to a future opportunity, as it would not be proper to draw the House into a dis cussion then on it. The other Petition, which he hoped to be allowed to lay on the table, was signed by 4.000 of the inhabitants of Bolton, in Lancashire, who called upon the House to interpose in favour of Mr. Hunt, or to relieve him from prison altogether. He would not then, after all, that had been said on the subject, take up the time of the House with any observations of his. Vie worthy Alderman, after adverting to the letter written by Mr. Hunt to Mr. Justice Bayley, in consequence of which orders were given by the King's Bench to allow Mr. Hunt's soli citor and surgeon free access to him, moved that he be allowed to bring up the Petition.—lt was accordingly brought up, and ordered to bt printed. the Noble Lord tight upon that occasion, he had stated that there would be an annual and gradual re duction of taxation resulting from the operation of the Sinking Fund by the Commissioners placing to the credit of the taxes the *plus, W any, and the interest arising from the 5.000,9001: Sinking Ptmdf-- (Hear, hear). If that plan wait given up, ate Coun-. try Gentlemen were bound to observe that thir,ve duction of 'one shillint on the bushel of malt was all they hid totexpeet. and that no further reduction was in contemplation. The Menials of LONDONDERRY said ) that he never stated that as a point of fact. What be stated was, that as they were then able to realize theirße solution of 1819, declaring the expediency of setting apart a clear Sinking Fund of five millions, and as they had a clear surplus above that sum, it would be open for the consideration of . Parliament, whether that surplus was to be applied for the remission of taxation, or for the acceleration of the liquidation of the National Debt: He distinctly said, that it was open far the discussion of Parliament, whether that surplus was to be allowed to accumulate for the re duction of the Dent; or whether it was to be applied to the remission of taxation, or divided between both those objects. He had no hesitation in sa) ing, that, ender the present circumstances of the country, the House would best exercise the discretion veved in them by applying the surplus of 1,400,000/. accruing from the reduction of the Navy Five per Cents. to the remission of taxation. But he did not mean to say that that mode was to be continued beyond the present pressure on agriculture. Under other cir cumstances the plan might be suspended. If the agri cultural distress should pass away, as the distress un der which the manufacturing and commercial inte rests laboured had done, then it might be applied to other purposes. He hoped he made himself under stood to the Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. TIERNEY said, that he understood the Noble' Lord to ray that the application of the growing stir. plus of the sum redeemed was in the discretion of Parliament. But whatever that gtewing surplus might be, at compound interest, it was, by several Acts of Parliament, to be applied to the liquidation of the National Debt, and Parliament had not, any discretion without an Act of Parliament. If the Noble Lord spoke of a glowing surplus at simple in terest, then the operation of the Sinking Fund by compound interest was abandoned, and the Acts of Par liament vesting it in Corn missioners should be repealed. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY recapitulated the statement which he made before, and said he meant the accruing surplus beyond the Sinking Fund of five millions, which were to be applied according to the Resolution of 1819. Mr. TIERNEY said he was astonisked to hear the ' Noble Lord open his lips and talk of a surplus of a Sinking Fund of five millions: there was no such stir- plus. Of the Sinking Fund of seventeen millions,; from which twelve millions had been taken in the shape of a loan, this five millions remained ; but that was no surplus. The Noble Lord had no Such sur plus. He seemed as if he talked of a new Fund to that amount. He (Mr. Tierney) would not use a harsh expression, but he would say the Noble Lord was not acquainted with the nature of the Sinking Fund. He wished, when they talked of the Sisiking Fund, that they understood what it was. He thought, after the Resolution of 1819, we had started anew; bat it seemed it was no such thing; that was a fal lacy, and no further reduction was to be expected. Mr. ELLICE said he rose to request of the Hon. Member for Corfe Castle to postpone his motion, in order to give an opportunity of discussing the sub ject fully. There seemed to be a complete misun derstanding. From what he could learn from an Hon. Member, a friend of his, his Hon. Fr iend voted on a former night with the understanding that the Noble Lord had put an end to the Sinking Fund, as formerly established. He (Mr. Ellice) gave his vote on that understanding. In fact, the Right Honour able Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) bad long since put an end to it by his mismanage ment. By his funding of Exchequer Bills, by raising the price of Stocks against himself, and by buying in at high prices, the country lost from six tb seven millions within a few years. As they were to have a new system of Sinking Fund, the subject ought to be discussed; and he came here with a view to beg the Hon. Member would postpone his motion. Mr. MABERLEY said he understood the Noble Lord meant to give up to the necessities of the State the interest on the five milliohs. He conveyed that impression to his (Mr. Maberley's) mind in distinct terms. The Noble Lord could not say so, unless he meant to repeal the Acts of Parliament which vested the accumulation in theCemmissioners. The Noble Lord seemed to know nothing of the matter, and it would be better to leave it in the hands of the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). He was happy that the Right lion. Gentleman meant to give a better system of keeping the public accounts for the future. The accounts lately laid on the table were a disgrace to the,country and to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The accounts brought down by the Right Hon. Gentleman differed widely from those laid on the table by the Noble Lord. One or other were incorrect, and perhaps both. With a view to reconcile those various accounts, he (Mr. Maber- j ley) went to the Treasury, and applied to Mr. HAI who admitted he could not reconcile them. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY' again rose, and begged to be understood that he distinctly stated that it would be open for the consideration of Par- Dement whether the surplus and interest would be applied to . the reduction of taxation, or suffered to operate by compound interest in reducing the Na tional Debt. His opinion was, that it would be bet ter, for the present year, to apply it to the relief of the country. Lord ALTHORPE said that the Noble Lord had on a former night clearly and distinctly stated that the surplus beyond the five millions was to be applied to the remission of taxation. hat/as on that under standing that several of the Members voted with him; but the Noble Lord now turned about and maintnined the contrary. satisfactorily apparent vari ance public accounts, quite obvious tit** tinny accounts, made out in different offices, mi g ht bays some obscurity ; and it was for that reason he proposed a Committee for the simplification of thus 'accounts particularly the Sinking Von& Mr. IiABERLEY commended the accuracy of Mr. Hill, and wished he was at the bar of the House to explain the accounts on the table, not on o item of which was correct._ Sir HENRY PARNELL wished to know whethet the Right Hon. Gentleman contemplated the simply fication of all public accounts, or only those accoante which. were to be laid before Parliament? tirAIUME could hardly believe the flight Roll. Gentleman sincere, when he said the accountslaid oft the table were correct. In one item which he toot the trouble to examine, he found in the Right Hot% Gentleman's account 1,800,0001. whereas the same item in .the Noble Lord's account was 2,115,0000 *hid; made a difference of 315,0001. Why the ac- counts of the Treasury should be kept in this cue fused manner, he was at a loss to discover. The Right lion. Gentleman had already admitted the necessit; of simplifying . the public accounts : he conceived that the necessity was immediate. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER agreed with the Hon. Member as to the propriety of correct ing the present mode of furnishing the public :lc. counts. He had, after some deliberation, formed a plan for simplifying the public accoun-.4—(Heer)— which it was his intention to ixplain to the House in a short time. With respect to the Treasury account*, he was ready to acknowledge t 1 at there was a ci;ifer ence between some parts of them as comparLd with the same accounts furnished at an , ,ther period. But when the House considered that there were ti ree dif ferent sotirces fiom which these accounts can e, they should be a little indulgent in the examination cf them, particularly as there could be no danger of any error being the result of an improper mode at keep ing the accounts, for it would be found that the ac counts in the office were all exactly correct. Mr. TIERNEY said, he was at a loss to see why the arrangement with respect to the Sinking Fund should not be taken in hand immediately, and not postponed until after the Budget. As yet the Pobiie were in a state of suspense as to what object the sink ing Fund accruing at present was to be applied. ' Mr. P. MOORE urged the House to adopt every means in their power for saving the country. The motion was then agreed to. . • ' ' ' '''''' W. - 7" . ''' ....' • . I " S‘t• MIVIIIWISITzwer 9.,;: , :- , . .. . ' . ' : " . • 19 ` ."-*`• 4. 4 - • i - • - , - .••••• • , 4•,÷- •• . ~., .--• .. • -• • • • , . •:, . , .. . . •• , • . , !, • . lowa . . ''.• '. ' , s. , . , .., .. . .. . . . • ' aI..Y• , •it ' . , .. .: . • . • . . ... . . iiaar.. ., erbelitte. ioei., 0 .. .. . ' ~.. ..: • . /7 , 7:10 , of arranging t l ol non gp ts w ould The CHAi CRULOit of the lIICHIIQtrE It was iption 4: dedance.irthe araers of Oat - be •kimrprised any Hos. Crentleasio would call fol. info? ravv lig would call the rieollectiost of• 0011„ a ' s d:a l itf i l Ott :yr! , BRN I EY 1 rill 10 Ina* au/ mly to elation at the Treasury. It svM no. usual io e - : M at r iPe Right Hon. • 4 hod said; lint he: into details with those who sOd go there . 'there n wa % Cnce in of Mar Cure old bet Infailika was-called / o to nci t l h e 7 th bar e ! of iiiiia the rent Howe, valian i ce le H e wished toknow from the Noble Lard opposite ( Lou. not in th e community a mont useful or. more intelli. 1 ,. T o .. former night by his Hon. Frieof“ .illettnet). than Mr. Hill; and he was sure, if th at :tine the Would contend that immoderate punishments Were dnnderry) whether . heudher, ed to what 'he said oil a Rent ,c (k ot i a l l t d Llia s:ifittteri . es urn inflicted. Th e water used by the prisoners was not c fo le r a m r e a r , o iderst tght, inth irh it e c on on th sid at er poi ed m it r i ec i es f u str unde y to Lave d a . " 64316- the pure river water—they were compelled to use the . .1.. lams). T Anvil wet , t amen that Occasion. he had in the public accounts. It was quite obviosss that it SINKING FUND. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to move the Order of the Day for going into a Com mittee of Supply. Mr. BANKES said, that before the Right Hon. Gentleman entered into any statement, he wished to move, in pursuance of his notice, for some returns lconnected with the Sinking Fund. He then, without any further preface, moved, That there be laid before the House an account of the amount of Capital Stock redeemed by the Commissioners ap. pointed for the redemption of the National Debt up to the sth of January, 1822, in pursuance of the 56th, fikh, and 55th of George the Third, together with calculations showing how much of the National Debt would be redeemed in ten years by the application of 5,000,0001. at simple interest ; together with cal culations shaving the amount which would be redeemed in the same time by the same sum at compound interest, taking the prices of s per Cent. Stock on an average of 751. 781. and 846" Mr. GItENFELL wished to be informed by the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, if his Majesty's Ministers had made up their minds,whether the 5,000,000'. which was set apart for a Sinking Fund, was meant to operate in the tedut tion of the National Debt by simple interest, or at a compound rate, and how they meant to dispose of the 260,0001. which was the excess of that Fund? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the question put by the Hon. Gent. was one of very great importance ; whether it was to operate by sim ple or compound interest was entirely at the disposal of Parliament. That question was left open for their consideration. With regard to the excess of 260,0001. he was not.yet prepared to say in what manner that would be available. The actual sum which the ex pected saving flints the reduction of the 5 per Cents. would fall abort of the sum discharged by the remis sion of the Malt Duty was not yet ascertained, and It was only from this excess, that the deficiency was to be made good. If, however, there should appear to remain any sum, after satisfying this deficiency, the application of it would be entisely at the dispOsal of Parliament. 'ln addition to what he said, he beg ged to mention then, that as soon as the finances of the year Were, gone through, and the Budget laid before the House, he would propose that a Commit tee be appointed for the arrangement and him pli fica• tion of the public accounts. In that Committee the Sinking Fund would become an object of attention, SUPPLIES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply. The order being read—on the motion that the . Speaker do leave the Chair, Sir JOHN NEWPORT wished to ask the Right lion. Gentleman whit allowance was to be made to the brewers and maltsters in the remission of Is. per bushel malt tax upon the stock on hand ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the intention of Government would be fully ex pressed in the Resolutions upon which the Bill to be brought in would be founded. Sir JOHN NEWPORT wished to understand what proportion would be alioaed to the maltsters? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sail that no alloWance would be made to them for the stock then on hand. Mr. FARRAND said, that the purpose cf Right Hon. Gentleman had been anticipated in t':e corn-market, and would cause a loss of 4s. a bushel on the stock on hand. That was the preent ea. ct of the measure, and there were no purchases of tetriee made. What then was to be done with the immen s e stocks of barley ? He had an account of the real state of the market to-day, which he would read to the House :••••4 6 The great uncertainty as to the in tentions of Government in regard to the malt on han4 has made the market dull, and few sales have been effected. Wheat from 3s. to 4s. lower than (ea Monday. Barley from 3s. to 4s. lower also. Bea barley, from 20s. to 225. per quarter."—But for that circumstance barley must have been at least as high as on Monday, the supplies were so short. But why was this to be the regulation on the repeal of the tax? In June, 1819, when barley was 70s. to 80s. a quar ter, the duty was imposed on the stock on hand. The consequence was, that down went the malt. There would be no malt made after May, if the light lion. Gentleman persisted. What then was to become of the barley ? Here was a method for relieving agri cultural distress ! The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the fluctuations of the corn market must have arisen from other causes, or they would not have af fected wheat as 'well as barley. Mr. FARRAND said; that there were large - stocks of barley and malt now on hand. The tax was to be taken off with a view to the relief of agriculture. It would produce an opposite effect if the Right Hon. Gentleman persisted. Mr. GOOCH understood that agriculture was to receive an immediate relief. if the Bill did not ai ply to the stock on hand, the malting season would be over, end then there would be no relief in it. Sir Nik RIDLEY was glad to observe the new light which had enabled the Hon. Member to discovei that the measures of Ministers really were likely to I bring no relief. Mr. G(X)CH explained. He had n:t . said that the measures of Ministers would yield no relief—(Order !? Sir M. RIDLEY understood the Hon. Member to complain that the measure could give no immediate relief. Immediate relief would not arise to agricul ture from any measures which the Noble Lord could adopt, especially if they went to force up artificial prices for artificial produce, to the detriment of all the rest of the community. The reduction of taxes would give relief by. leaving the means of increased consumption, and the consequent increase of demansio from which the most effectual remedy would be de rived to agricultural distress. Mr. HUME wished to have particulars of the suer of 1,n00,0001. for wear and tear, or ss , tear aad wear," as the corrected expression furnished them set a former night wear, It was ao reason for refusing. i , i ~~. I • •