Star. — London, England, 1823-07-10 00:00:00

measure at a time when it could be fairly debated, which could not be at that period of the Session. He had for the first time heard that the Revolution was an innovation: The Revolution was nn innovation, but a restoration of the subject to his ancient rights. The great blessing of the Revolution was, that it brought oboist the establishment in Church and State. He must say that the House was treated with indignity when called on to decide on so important a question in so thin a House. Such a thing had never occurred before, and he must vote for the amendment. The Earl of lIARROWBY said, that the Bill had been some months before the other House, and had only been delayed by the pressure of important busi ness. The subject had in substance been before the House whenever the general question had been agi tated. He was at a loss to conceive upon what grounds the measure could be opposed. Had•the elective franchise, in 1793, been restricted to the su perior order of Catholics, he believed that all the be nefits of the measure would have been secured, and much of the evil that afflicted Ireland would have been avoided, and especially that greatest of all evils, the demoralisation of the lower classes of the com munity. But none of those evils could be appre hended in the present case, and therefore formed no objection to the Bill. In the event of the invasion of this country, its defence could be as safely entrusted to a Catholic as to any Noble Lord in that House. The same Irish Parliament that had the one year, by an immense .majority, refused the elective franchise, granted it in the ftalowing. He should vote for the Bill. The LORD CHANCELLOR explained. Lord LIVERPOOL should vote for the first Bill of the Noble Marquis (the repeal of the Act of the 7th and Bth of William). Should the second Bill be proposed, lie must move that it be postponed. Whether the elective franchise was right cr wrong, concession in Ireland was not the question before the House. By the question of anomaly he was little moved. In every part of the Empire there were anomalies. In Scot land there was not only a difference of laws, but, what was much more, a difference of religion, from which no bad effects had ever ensued. He, in fact, thought that Ireland had received injury from an attempt to remove the anomalies between her and England. He agreed with his Noble Friend, that had the elective franchise been limited to a higher order of electors, as, the Catholics had prayed, much evil would have been avoided. He, for one, saw no objection to the prin ciple of the first Bill, that went to give the elective franchise. To the object of the second Bill, that went to admit - the Catholic to certain offices, he had also no objection, though he had objections to the way in which it was proposed to effect it. Lord CLIFDEN warned the House to take care, if they did not concede the present measure, that it might not one day be extorted from them. The Earl of LIMERICK supported the [notion. Lord MELVILLE agreed in principle with both the Bills, but should move in the Committee, that their operation should not extend to Scotland, as he conceived such a procedure would be a violation of the articles of the Union. He hoped both the Bills would be read a second time ; hut in the Committee he should propose certain modifications of the second Bill, in order to define more clearly the extent of its operation. The Marquis of LINSDOWN shortly replied. He had no objection to postpone the second Bill to ano ther Session; as the Noble Earl (Liverpool) made no objection to the first Bill ; and was not unwilling to' accomplish the object of the second. He trusted the house would allow the Bills to proceed to a second reading ; it not being his intention to press the second Bill in the present Session. The LORD CriANCELLOR and the Earl of LIVERPOOL explained. The House divided on the second reading— Contents—Peers present 43 Non contents—Peers present 41 Proxies 30 Proxies 39 73 BO Majority against the second reading severs. The Bill was consequently lost. TITHE COMPOSITION BILL. Lord CLIFDEN made a few remarks on this ques tion, which he followed up by moving, " That it be an instruction to the Committee to give the Lord Lieutenant a power to appoint Commissioners to set tle the amount of the composition, with reference to the payment of tithes, the value of that sum to be specified b, the amount paid for a certain number of preceding years." Lord KING thought that the Bill would be nuga tory without the compulsory clause. The state of Ireland required legislative interference. The hie rarchy of Ireland by some were called the Monks and Friars of Protestantism ; certain it was it drained the country most cruelly. He could only compare an Irish farmer to a miserable hack, with the Protestant Church on the saddle, spurring his sides, and his own Church on the crupper, spurring his flanks. He was in a hell in this world and threatened with another hell in the next, if he did not quietly submit to these goadings—(a laugh). Lord ELLEN BOROUGH said that the Bill, as it at present stood, was not what was wanted. The tithes of England and Ireland were quite different: Isere there were full many rich payers of them—there a great many pour payers. He thought this Bill would still leave the clergyman and his flock in hos tile contact as num& as ever; for the Tithe Proctor w ould not be got rid of by its operation. He would rather the question should remain as at present, until it forced itself upon the attention of Parliament. The Earl of Lii9ERICK and the Earl of DARNLEY felt it their duty to ,give the Bill their support. Lord HOLLAND thought the Bill before their Lordships no blessing without the compulsory clause; and on that account voted for the amendment of his Noble Friend (Lord Clifden). He considered the Bill as a recognition of the intention of the House to rediess that which Mr. Pitt bad twenty years ago declared to be an evil, The Bill was the only mise rable pittance which, during 23 years, the wisdom and justice of Parliament had condescended to give to the people of Iceland. On that account he would vote for going into a Committee, without pledging himself to assent to the third reading, unless the mea sure received considerable improvement in the Com ruittee. But he wished it to be understood, that he would not vote for the Committee on the ground, which the Noble Earl opposite had on a former night' ' urged to obtain the support of the Reverend Prelates to the Bill. The conduct of the Noble Lords on his (Lord Holland's) side of the House was more loge- 1 IMMir nuons than that of the Nol)le Earl, for they plainly stated that they wished to compel the Church to consent to a commutation of tithes on the broad principle that necessity and the sat* populi required it. The Noble Lord then proceeded to take a brief review of the various clauses of the Bill, with the imperfect nature of some of which he expressed himself extremely dissatisfied. He had .thought that this progeny of so many Jupiters, and which' l had been so long in begetting, would have come into the House in its full vigour, like a young Hercules, to crush at one blow the Hydra-evils which it was fated to destroy. But how abortive did it ap- 1 pear : what a sine viribus infans I how puny a bant ling ! It could not even be aided by the smooth speeches of the Noble Earl. The relief to Ireland, if afforded at all, must be afforded speedily. It was not only the wish of every man who had a proper regard for the interests of the country, but it was the duty of this House, commissioned as it was to watch over the welfare of the people, to adopt such measures without delay; and he called upon their Lordships to do so, if they would save the empire and gratify the people. At an earlier period of the evening, they had heard from a Noble Lord (the Lord Chancellor) the expression of the public opinion with respect to the question of Catholic Emancipation. That Noble Lord had told the House that that question was now more generally disapproved of than it had been for many years. He (Lord Holland)thought that the Par, liament was the Representative of the public opinion. The House of Commons, although it had some years ago rejected that question, had recently passed Bills recognizing it, which they had sent up to this House. (The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, across the table, 66 By a mere majority.") The Noble Earl said by a mere majority. Since when was it that the Noble Earl had learned to despise mere majorities? He could re member, indeed, and he was sure the Noble Earl did not forget, that after keeping the House there during a whole summer, for the purpose of passing a Bill, he had retracted it because it was voted for by a mere majority; but this was not the ordinary prac tice. At least it would be recollected, that if the supporters of that question were now in a mere ma jority, they were in a minority before—(Hear). But the Lord Chancellor thought fit to stand up in his place and say that the people of England had for merly entertained, but had now repudiated the Ca tholic question. Did the votes of the House of Com mons, then, or the Lord Chancellor speak the sense of the people? Or had the Lord Chancellor got the votes of the House and the opinions of the people into Chancery ?—(A laugh.) It would be a strange theory if it should be pretended that the language of the people were to be learned from the Throne or a Lord Lieutenant, or, in their default, from a Lord Chancellor. The concession, of which so much was said, would be made to one-fourth of the people ; and let it be remembered, when Catholics were charged with a want of loyalty, that no man', could stand up in either House of Parliament and say, 6' I am a Catholic, and I have as much loyalty as any man." He then quoted the opinion of Mr. Pitt, who, though he was no great authority, had said that the power of the country could never be consoli dated until the Catholic question should be passed, and reproached the persons who availed themselves of the weight of that statesman ' s name, if weight it had, with not practising his pre:epts. But to come to the question before him, if they were to be guided by public opinion, the public opinion of Ireland has been pretty strongly expressed in favour of this mea sure. The proposition of his Noble Friend would much improve the Bill ; but still it would be suscep tible of considerable amendment. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that his view with respect to this clause was this. A compulsatory clause was important, and he thought would be ne cessary. But then, let their Lordships onderstand what he meant by compulsion. Did he mean to compel the clergy to take less than their full rights? No; certainly not. He fully admitted the right of the Legislature to interfere with Church property as with any other, but then it must be done fairly and equitably. And if any species of public property were found too inconvenient, he should say they had a Tight to commute it, on giving a fair equivalent. With respect to the success of the measure, much must depend upon the activity and zeal of those who were to act under it, but he was persuaded that it possessed the elements of much practical benefit. The House then divided, when there appeared For the Compulsory Clause - - 11 Against it 51 Majority against the Clause - —to The House then went into a Committee. Some of the clauses having been gone through, the House resumed, and the Bill was ordered to be recommitted on Friday next. Their Lordships adjourned at Half-put Twelve. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. DAWSON presented a Return of the number of Debtors confined in Scotiand.—Ordered to be printed. The House was summoned to the House of Peers to hear the Royal Assent siva', by Commlesion, to several Public and Pri vate Bills.—(See the Lords' Report} The St. Petersburgh Marriage Bill went through a Commit tee. The Report was received, and ttie Ball read a third thile. On the motion of Mr. Wasson-Hottrou the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Acts relative to New foundland. The Hon. Idember, in the Committee, moved cer tain Resoludons for altering and consolidating the Lawi relative to Courts of Justice in that Coloni. The • Resolutions were agreed to, and the Report ordered to be received to-morrow. Mr. WYNN moved the Order of the Day for the further consideration of the East India Mutiny Bill. The Bill was, on the motion of the Right Hon. Ge,ptkman, recommitted, and several clauses were added to it, and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. The Irish Linen Manufacturers Bill was read a third time. Se veral clauses were added to the Bill, which smatheti passed. PENITENTIARY. ,Mr. PEEL reminded the Ititise that there was a general impression abroad that sickness, to an alarm ing extent, pervaded the prison of the Penitentiary. A great means of checking disease would be, by giving a power of making an experiment which-had not yet been tried, and which, in his opinion, would be most desirable. He meant the power of remoT ing the prisoners who may require it to a fresh air. The power of this temporary removal was granted its the other prisons; and, notwithstanding the lateneis of the Session, he would ask leave, and he was sure the House would concur with him, to grant the pki toners of the Penitentiary the same privilege pos sessed by those in the hulks; He accordingly moved for leave iu bring in a Bill authorizing the temporary removal of the prisoners from the General Penitentiary. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR thought it due to the House to state, that no exertion had been spared in endea vouring to remove the malady alluded to. 1 8 report had gone abroad that the prison was situated in a damp and unwholesome place, and that the disease was caused by the contiguity of the River. This he denied ; and, from a reference to the history of the country, it would be found, that when the plague raged in London, those alone who lived near the river were exempt from it. What the cause of the malady may be he was not able to judge; but he was sate- fled it was not owing to the water. The subject had agitated the mind of the Public, and particularly of the higher classes. Of this he was glad, as it %hewed the interest taken by the higher orders in the comforts of the poor. The mortality had been unusually great' last winter. He had himself made inquiries at the parish of St. James, and the Rector told him that a greater number of persons had been buried in the parish in three months than at other periods during an entire year. The rector of St. George's had made the same statement. The malady, therefore, was not owing to the conduct of the prison, hut to the course of the season. Ile felt much obliged to the Right lion. Gentleman for his Bill. Mr. HOLFORI) was sure the disease was not caused by the situation of the prison. All the medi cal men who were consulted were of the same opinion. Mr. W. SMITH said a few words. Mr. PEEL thought, that if the sickness were owing to the situation, the palish in which the Peni tentiary was would be equally unhealthy. This was by no means the case; until last winter that parish was one of the most healthy in London. The situa tion of Toth ill-fields Prison was similar to that of the Penitentiary, and yet it was perfectly healthy. The number of sick did not exceed twelve. His decided opinion was, that the sickness was not owing to any local situation.—Leave granted to bring in the Bill. THE BEER BILL. Mr. BROUGHAM said he wished, at this advanced period of the Session, to withdraw this Bill, and in doing so he was desirous of stating his reason for act ing so. That reason was the little prospect there was of his being able to carry a measure against which the monopoly of the brewers was arrayed, a monopoly which he had almost called illegal. The publicans certainly were not against it, but they were kept down by the brewers, and even the body most interested, the Consumers, were entirely silent, and seemed as if now labouring under the influence of the brewers beverage. The landed interest, also, who were a little time ago so clamorous about grievances, distress, and reform, were now completely silenced by a rise of three or four shillings a quarter in wheat, who, owing to that rise, supposed their misfortunes at an end, though he was convinced they would soon find themselves griev ously disappointed. But these Gentlemen, the bar ley growers, who ought to have been his natural al lies, were wholly silent, and thus abandoned by all, what chance could he have of succeeding in a mea sure having for its object only to benefit society at large? He had no course left but to withdraw the measure, declaring that he should be ready to bring it forward whenever called on to do so.— He had on this occasion only experienced a disap pointment similar to that he had experienced when he brought forward a former measure calculated for the benefit of the lower orders—he alluded to his Bill relative to the Education of the Poor. In that case, as in the present, he had been deserted by those who ought tohave been his natural allies—the Dissenters, as well as the Members of the Established Church. This desertion was the only reward which he had re ceived in return for a laborious devotion of his time for months, and even years, to bring these measures, for the benefit of the Public, to perfection. Mr. WESTERN regretted that his Hon. Friend had withdrawn this Bill; had he persevered in this measure, it should have had his support. After a few words from Alderman Woon, the order for the second reading of the Bill was then discharged. Mr. WESTERN withdrew his Bill relative to the qualification of Juries in Counties for the present Ses sion. He did this at the request of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, and he wished now to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether he had come to any determination as to the question of holding the Assizes more frequently? Mr. PEEL said, he had certainly requested the Hon. Gentleman to postpone this measure till next Session, thinking it required more consideration than could be given to it during the present Session. As to the question of the Hon. Gentleman respecting the holding of Assizei more frequently, he was friendly to the measure, but he saw many very great difficul ties in the way of its general adoption. It had been adopted in the Home Circuit, and with success, but hewas at a loss to see how it could be extended ge. nerally without increasing the number of Judges: the difficulties were great, but be hoped they would not prove insurmountable to a further extension of the principle if it should be found impracticable to make it general. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR adverted to the Northern Circuit, and said, he had, at the desire of Lord Sid- . mouth, applied to the Bishop-of Durham to know if he would receive and entertain the Judges in, the winter as he did in the summer; and that Rev. Pro late said , he would not; and further, he stated, tket 'the Judges, if they came in the winter, must defray their own expense's. He had mentioned this to his Hon. Friend, Mr. Justice Park, and advised hies to apply to Lord Sidmouth for his additionat expenses. Mr. Justice Park said he had an independent fortune of his own, and should not mike any application on the subject whatever his Learned Brothers Might 40. Mr. BROUGHAM said, the Bishop of Durham had been as good as his word, and had refused to re ceiv,e the Judges, who had been obliged to defray their own expenses. Such, however, had not been the , case with the Noble Sheriff of Westmorland, Lord Thrum, who received the Judges with the same hos pitality in the winter as he did in the summer, and the same he believed might be said of the Mayor and Corporation of the towns of Newcastle and ofCarlisle After a few words from Mg. Sc4aLarr and Mr' Pitiu., the latter of whom said, if additional Assize' were appointed the Government would take care the the expenses of the Judges should he. provided fort the Bill was postponed till the next Session. Mr. BARING said he held in his hand a Petition from Joe Milbu•—(A laugh)—complaining of having bees neglected lky Government, he having served under elf it. Abercroistbie in Egypt, and rendered eScient service to the troops there...or dered to lie on the table, and to be printed.. - • . Mr. HUTCHINS ON said, he held in his hand a Petition from several Inhabitants of Middlesex an! Surrey, praying the House to take into considerati 4l the gate of the Labouring Poor of Ireland. He wds extremely grateful to these individuals for the kind wishes they expressed towards his countrymen ; h e . must, at the same time, however, express Lis dissent from the plan of relief which they suggested, namely, the introduction of the Poor Laws into Ireland. Mr. DENISON said, he was persuaded it was not the general wish of the County of Surrey to have th. Poor Laws, from which they had suffered so severely, extended to Ireland. The Petition was received. Mt OF MAN. Colonel DAVIES pot a question to the Secretary of State for the Home Department, as to the E sta b. lishment of the Isle of Man, which he considered could 'De much reduced; he partieularly d .1 II a..u..eu to the Office of Attorney-General of the Isle of M us which he understood was a sinecure, fur ,A hich the: individual holding it received a salary of 70f,)1. a-year.. Mr. PEEL said , - so far from the office of Attorney. General of the Island being a sinecure, it was an 4., cient office, and the Secretary fi,r the Home Departs ment was in constant correspondence with him. Mr. BROUGHAM said, his Honourable and gal. last Friend's correspondent had certainly deceived him ; instead of the Attorney-General having nothing to do, he was hard worked, and instead of being well paid with seven hundred pounds a year, he was very ill paid with two hundred. Colonel DAVIES said, his correspondent might perhaps have made a mistake of 500/.—(44 laugh). General GASCOYNE said, to his personal know. ledge the Attorney-General was almost constantly resident in the island, and constantly employed in the duties of his office. Mr. CANNING bore similar testimony to that of the gallant General, as to the efficiency of the office, and the merits of the individual who held it. OUR FOREIGN RELATIONS. Colonel PALMER said he now rose, pursuant to his notice, to bring forward his motion on this sub. ject; and he was induced to do so by a conviction of the dangerous situation of this country, and on u. count of the language of the late Address to the Crown. In his opinion that Address ought to hare expressed the indignation of the House at the conduct of the Holy Alliance; by not doing so, we had chews a want of feeling, or a fear of expressing it; and by so doing had endangered the independence of Spain, at all times so necessary to this country. Looking at the present state of agriculture and of manufactures, at our present load of taxation, and at our preset enormous national debt, how, he would ask, could we be prepared to enter on a new contest ? Yet the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had acknow- ledged that by the policy we were now pursuing, we must, sooner or later, be dragged into a contest; but if the general cry for Reform was attended to, and the unanimously expressed wish of the people to en gage in a contest for the liberties of mankind, the energies of the people would soon change the face of our affairs, and enable us, not only to defend our. selves, but to protect all the world against tyranny and oppression ; and he must consider that the Eng lish Ministers had, by their conduct at Congress, whet this country ought to have taken the lead, been more to blame than the Ministers of France. A Noble Lord, in his speech on a former night, had said that he verily believed had England said no, France would not have gone to war. The N o bl e L ord might have gone further, for had England boldly declared in fa. your of Spain, France, instead of submitting to the directions of the Holy Alliance, would have thrown herself into the arms of England ; but the conduct of ourown Government had prevented this circumstance from taking place; and they,had adopted a course which, sooner or later, would not fail to involve min a contest, the result of which no man could foresee. No man could look to this but as a contest which had admitted of no compromise; for it was bne be tween despotism and the rising liberties of Europe. It was for this reason that he wished the Representa tives of the People of England to speak out, and be friend the cause of social order, morality, and hums , nity, in Europe. It was not the interest of England alone that was concerned, but the interest of the whole world. It was not a change of Ministers that could save this country, but a change of measures— protecting the public creditors, whilit they pursued a system of rigid retrenchment, which the preset Ministers never adopted until driven to it. He thus moved fan a copy of any instructions to Sir Vi A'Court, for the regulation of his conduct, in respect to any changes to be made in the Constitution fi Spain, by the Cortes. He had no wish, however, divide the Homse on, the question. The motion was then negatived without a divide& CHIZY BARON O'GRADY. The adjourned debate on the conduct of the chid Baron O'Grady was then ordered to be resumed. Mr. GOULBURN moved, as an amendment to the Resolution, that the Chief Justices of the Commas Pleas in Ireland have been in the habit of increasia the fees of suitors in their Court, at their pleasure. After some observations from Mr. Rica and $s &MUST; the Amendment was carried without division. Mr. S. RICE moved an Amendment to the Reef lution, that it was not stated that the increase of fee took place at the discretion of the Judges for Oa own sole emolument. Mr. SCARLLTT and the SOLICITOR-GRNERAL ag posed the Amendment. Mr. R. SMITH had wished the regulations poll poned till next Session. As the la* now stood_ 3 Judge might fi nd it necessary to raise his own fel* without any corrupt motive. But from the cid I •Baron's conduct he could not acquit him of culpalak rand corrupt motives. Still be had much rather lssOt his case stand over till the House was ko a.6t ,statew fudge of it. Captain O'GRADY contended, that although the Chief Baron might be considered as judicially wrong/ he was not to be accused . of corrupt motives. Mr. PEEL thought it unfair to keep the charsa hanging over the head of the Chief Barrio. If 119 9 opinion were asked whether a Judge increased his own fees properly, when he was leg4lly authorised to do so? he would • say, at once, that an individual s 0 situated should abstain from the *se of such an tor thority ; and he would therefore propose, that a NI should be brought in to abolish the practice in I,r ture; but he could not consent either to remove die Chief Baron, or to impeach him at the Bar. • Sir H. PARNELL thought the House was Pot