Star. — London, England, 1823-06-20 00:00:00

af Ireland, so reduced theumottat of payment, that Irehmd now paid only two twenty-sevenths, the re mainder still being paid by this country. While the people of Ireland remained on their former footing, they had no prospect, no hope of any kind of dims-' nution of taxes; but the last year the Window Tax' was repealed; and the Imperial Parliament was going to relieve Ireland from Assessed Taxes, though the people of England were continuing to pay them. Was it, therefore, the most allowable language, in a le gislative sense, fur Noble Lords to assert that Go vernment had really done nothing, and also that Par liament did nothing to improve the condition of the people of Ireland? Was it noble-minded to mix up coercive measures, which were temporary, with sub stantial benefits, in order to confound both? Par liament had passed a series of benevolent and conci liatory Acts, not applying to this or that sect, but equally good for Catholic and Protestant,.. for the whole of Ireland; and were these ameliorations to be found wanting, or regarded as nothing at all? With respect to the question of Catholic Emancipa tion, to which the Noble Duke had alluded, be con sidered it too large a field of discussion to be intro duced at present; but was it fitting that persons whir at all hazards had adhered to the Constitution, should be displaced by a side-thrust? This never was the principle of the Noble Duke's friends when in office; who, on the contrary, went out of their way in search after persons to fill offices, though differing in politics with those persons. As to the motion now before their Lordships, it was similar to that made by a Noble Marquis (Lansdown) in the last Session of Parliament, and nearly at the same time of the year, it then being the 14th of June, who then al luded to that dividing of Magistrates, since adopted —who suggested some relief from taxation, which also was adopted—v.ho submitted the propriety of inviting the return of Irish aliens, which, by the re peal of the Assessed Taxes in that country, was adopted too; and with respect to the commutation of tithes, their Lordships knew that measure was going on. Without a reference to party-views, be trusted that Ministers had done their duty. He, in the discharge of his duty, had stated this; and, as lie wished not to give a direct negative to the Resolution that had been moved by the Noble Duke, he should conclude by moving the previous question. Viscount CLIFDEN said,' that certainly there could have been no treat improvement in our rela tive situation with Ireland, it we bad not permitted her to import the produce of her soil. As to that for bearance which the Noble Earl boasted of respect ing the finances of Ireland, there was no merit in this; for their Lordships could not draw any more from that ill-fated land. With respect to Irish ab sentees, they were the fruit of the Union of the two countries; and if their Lordships were pleased with the ITision, they must cherish the offspring of it. He must remark, that the population of Ireland was es sentially Catholic ; and ever since the tear 173.5, when it might be supposed that the Church was not more practicable than now, the tiles were disputed, add affa'rs continued in this posture till 1760, from which period, when Leland had become an agricul tural country, there was nothing but s inguinary laws, murders, rebellions, and executions. behind was not indebted to this country, unless her subjugation could be demonstrated to have been a benefit to herself.— Even in England, tithe was a serious hardship, and what !bust it not be in Ireland? Tithe was said to be of divine origin, and perhaps it was, but fur a people and for uses different to those to which it seas now applied. The Noble Lo. ..1 proceeded to quote from Mr. Mason's wot k relative to the proportion of • parishes and tithe-payers in a particular Barony in the Queen's County ; the result of which was that the payers being many and the tithe small, the necessity for employing proctors was rendered urgent. Many of their Lordships knew nothing of the state of Ire land; and more was the pity—yes, he repeated, more was the pity! Then look at the Ecclesiastical Courts, where a Clergyman was the Judge in behalf of hii; fellow Clergyman. In fa‘t, altogether the state of Ireland was shocking to contemplate, whatever were the causes that produced it, or the difficulty of the remedies to be applied to it. In Ireland, by the Act of 1735, parishes were united; and there was one pa rish, nearly twenty miles in length, in which there, was only one Church, and scarcely more than one parson to visit it. The evils of Ireland would be re venged sooner or later, .if their Lordships did not in terfere in time. The Vicar-General of Kilkenny was a respectable man ; but it was not so much of men as of the general system that he complained. The peo ple of Ulster were not in the same melancholy con dition with the people of the South, for they were Protestants, and not afflicted by the most atrocious code which was ever invented by the perverteJ inge nuity of man. It, was not therefore to be wondered at that they (their Lordships) were hated and disliked. Why not, he asked, revive the woollen trade, which was torn from Ireland? At any expense, it would be desirablo to bring it back. Frederick of Prussia, a cutthroat and a robber, had said, that to sow he must reap, and he therefore sowed cotton in the wastes of Poland. The great matter with respect to Ireland was, to impress upon the people that their Lordships were alive to their interests. If that were done, Ire land would still prove a mine of wealth to this coun try. Above all, however, let the intolerant remnant of the Penal Code be abrogated. Lord Macartney supported his opinion, and no man was ever a more zealous defender of Protestantism than that Noble Lord. The consummation of Ireland's misfortunes was completed by the Bills of Discovery, which broke up every tie of family and kindred, and left to the hospitable no roof again to hold within it the guest, if interest prompted the latter to make a discovery. Ti: last rag of such a system should be repealed.— There were other things to be done, especially with the tithes; for in Ireland they.had a Church without a flock. If Bishops and Parsons without flocks were to be paid, let them be paid, but in some other man ner than by tithe. The Pastors, the real Pastors of Ireland were the Catholic Priests, who were neither to be bought nor bribed, and whose conduct was of the most exemplary nature. The object Of the Clergy oi.. should be to instruct, to teach the people; but for the Protestant Minister, he hid no flock to teach. Why, then, be paid as they..were? The more he said the. other House, particularly in the recent prOteeili: lags against- the Sheriff of Dublin and the Otabge men, the more he was induced to think that without Reform they could not much longer governtbe coun- try. The Newspaparaltad over and Qver again told Wier Lordslkipst The LORD CHANCRIXOR.-66 1 kr ! order I Lord CLIFDEN.—WeII, he was sorry to be out of order ih making a statement of what their Lordships knew as well as he .did. One effect, however, of the ricent proceedings in the other House was, that what ever differences existed formerly between Catholics were now done away, and they. were all united to gether, and thank GOD for it ! The Noble Lord here adverted to the 'state of our finances, which wonld,he feared, prevent us from maintaining our maritime as cendancy. That which had happened might happen again, and we might see the French land in Ireland, as they did in 1796 and in 1799 ; and would it not, therefore, be right to place Ireland in that situation in which the bribery of the enemy Might not tempt' her, nor continued oppression alienate her from this country ? He prayed GOD, however, that such an event might never happen. He might have said 1 something offensive to delicate ears, and he was sorry for it ; but he felt within himself that he had only ' done his' duty. The Earl of DARNLEY observed, that the time' had now arrived at which, if the evils of Ireland were' not probed to the bottom, and the axe applied to the tree, she would prove a source of the greatest weak ness to this country. It was tree thit several advan tages mentioned by' the Secretary of State had been granted to Ireland, but 'more for the advantage of this country than for the benefit of Ireland. If they bad not taken the debt of that country on them, and , relieved her from taxation, they would have been obliged to have declared her in a state of national bankruptcy. He contended that the conduct of the other House of Parliament had been to send back in triumph Like head of the Change party in Ireland, an Alderman of Dublin and a vender of very bad sta tionery at a monstrous price to the Public., • Was that conciliation ? Ile would not fatigue nor disgust their Lordships by all the horrible details arising from the connection of Ireland with England; bat . he must say that the policy of this country to Ire land was to keep her in a constant stateof degradation and irritation. A leas ned writer in the reign of James I. had complained that the English laws had never been properly extended to Ireland. The mis fortune of Leland was, that the people detested the very name of England, because they had not a fair share of our privileges; and all that he wished fo; was to obtain an adoption of that only system of true and conciliatory policy towards Ireland.— He wished them not to be too sure that it was pos sible, in the present state of Europe, much longer to deny to six millions of Irish Catholics the privileges of the British Constitution. • Much danger was to be apprehended from the House of Bourbon becoming • triumphant in Spain, on a principle favourable to Catholic superstition. The more they considered it, the more the House would be convinced that no good could be done without equal laws, and admitting all Ireland within the pale of the Constitution. It' this were not done, it would be in vain to look ulti mately to the preservation of Ireland, or to governing her in peace. It was inconceivable to think that the peasant of Ireland, especially of Munster, could be satisfied with the system of tithes, when be saw the rich Protestant grazier pay not one farthing to his Pastor, while he is deprived of his produce of po tatoes by the agents of a Clergy, the tenets of who,e church he has been taught to detest and abhor. The House would do well, therefore, to agree with the motion, and probe the evil to the bottom. The great evil was the want of employment, an :I this might be remedied by making canals, and by other great pub lic works. But besides this, every landed proprietor ought to give employment to as many of the labour ing poor of his neighbourhood as he could. Much good might be done in this way, but still, as long as Government acted upon the prevent system of keep ing down the Catholics, or what was worse, "of keeping the word of promise to their ear, but break ing it to their hopes" he had no expectation that tranquillity would be restored to that country. The Earl of GOSFORD said, many measures had been proposed for the relief of Ireland, but the sys tem of maladministration was so interwoven with that country, that without a complete change very speedily took place, he much feared they would have cause to regret it. The Earl of CALEDON wished the Legislature to resort to any remedies in the world, rather than to continue the present system of maladministration practised in Ireland. Lord MARYBOROUGH felt strongly on the subject of his country, to which he was so much at tached. No one was better acquainted with the ex cellent conduct of the Noble Duke who moved this question, bat he was sorry to differ with him on this motion, which implied a censure on the Government , which le (Lord Maryborough) was attached to, as well as all former Governments of Ireland. The mo tion also conveyed a censure on the Legislature. It had been stated, that no steps had been taken to give education to the poor of Ireland, but he begged to state, that Commissioners were appointed after the Union, and they found that there was scarcely a Foun dation, Royal or otherwise, which had not been grossly abused, and which they did not remedy.— These .Commissioners proposed a general plan of education, which had been partly acted upon. As to public works, there were sit harbours made by Parliament, such as Dunleary and Howth harbours. Besides these things, One million of money had been advanced to support her .credit. To public works £500,000 had been advanced, and many other sums, within the last three or four years. These were but a few of the advantages which Parliament•had con ferred on the people Of Ireland. To the Catholic College of Maynooth £200,000 had been voted, be sides sums voted for new churches and . glebe-houses, to keep Op a resident Clergy for the instruction of the people. He believed that theft was no part of in land which was without Diocesan Schools. Surely these things did not shew as if Parliament had neg lected the poor of Ireland. The present Administra tion had adopted the suggestions of persons opposed to them, which they thought'svere likely to benefit Ire land, such as Sir J. Newport's Commissions to inquire into abuses in Courts of Justice in Ihtland, as well as in the 'collection-of the Revenue indent country. No one, surely, would Say thatthese war not great boons to Ireland? It bad bend said that the Noble Marquis . (Wellesky)liad Anne nothing forirekind: betbe brought into 'Parliament two Bills, one for the .Coto position, and the 'other for the Commutation of Tythea That was more than any former Irish Go vernitant had dom. When the Noble Lord (Olftlen) had talked of taking away tythes, he should have re collected that haff the tythes of Ireland were in the hands of lay impropriators, who exacted them more , severely than the Clergy. . The Noble Lord should ' have also recollected that he could not make one law ' for the Clergy, and another for the Laity, so that if the lythii . Wert taken - froas the one, they would be snatched from the other. It was not fair for the Noble Duke to say that nothing had been done for Ireland. On these grounds he opposed the motion. Lord HOLLAND asked if these were the grounds , on which this motion for enquiry was-to be resisted? Were they, because • great boons had been granted to Ireland, to stop all enquiry into the frequent re currence of the scenes of violence and discontent, amounting to almost rebellion? What an ungrateful people these Irishmen must be to continue in such a state after so much money bad been granted them for harbours, canals, bridges, and roads! Bonaparte might have said, is there any part of Europe that have not improved with roads, bridges, palaces, &c. 9 and the improvement he had made in the people by education. The Noble Lord had said nothing about the improvement made in the people of Ireland. It had, indeed, •been said, that a very great deal had been done by education ; but what had all these boons to do with the present question? The Resolution did not say that Parliament had at all shrunk from its duty, or that Parliament had done nothing for Ireland ; it only said that the frequent recurrence of violent and unconstitutional laws skewed there was something wrong in the adminis tration of Ireland which called for inquiry. Would any Noble Lord say that there was nothing wrong somewhere ?—( Hear, hear)—and if he could not deny that fact, could he resist voting for the propo sition of the Noble Duke? The Noble Lord (Liver pool) opposite, on proposing the measures passed in the last year, had said, GOD forbid that he should propose them as anything but a temporary mea sure! the evil lay deep in the frame of society in Ireland, and it must be " probed to the bottom:' After such a declaration, who would suppose that the Noble Earl, having get his Insurrection Act, would not go with his spade and delve into the system in quest of this jewel, which was to cure all evils; but, instead of that,the Noble Earl contented himself with plaiting up two miserable flowers, nearly,at the surface, his cOmmutation and composition of tithes, his dandelion and his jasmin—(Laughter)—and said to Noble Lords, now smell to these, here are the cures for all the evils which Ireland labours under. He had no objection to this Tithe Bill, but he objected to its ' being quoted before it was in operation. It was now late in the Session, and he, as an older Member of that House than the Noble Earl (Maryborough), ' would take the liberty of telling him, that it was not likely that Bill would pass this year; because expe rience taught him, that when measures of this kind weie proposed, it was said—" This measure is of great impoitance ; itaffects a number of suitors ; We Vilest Lae some time ; we must have proper machi nery to weave this web, which will protect you all, and secure your happiness." These operations neces sarily took sometime; but when the web was wove, then came the Noble Penelope of that House, smite times with tears in her eyes, to unravel it all.— The Noble Lord had said, that this motion implied 'censure upon• the noble person at the head of the Irish Government. He (Lind Holland), as a Member of Parliament, was obliged to sly with him, that he was disappointed ; but when he said this, he must at the same time say, that as far as that great personage was concerned, he believed him to be sincere in his wishes towards Ireland. Although he knew the diffi culties which that Noble Personage had to contend with, he (Lord Holland) could not conceal from him self that his efforts had failed. The situation of the Noble Marquis brought to his recollection an anec dote, with which he would trouble their Lordships. In the correspondence of a Noble Duke, which was. lately under discussion, there was one expression which frequently occurred, and for an explanation of which he was called upon by an Irish friend—the term was 4 6 false position." His Irish friend said, you are in the habit of reaclktg diplomatic papers, can you tell me what is the meaning of " false position?" I said, " I don't know what it means; perhaps it is some term in that art in which the noble writer ex cels; but .1 know it is a kind of jargon which is bandied about by Ministers in their correspondence; perhaps it means that a man has taken a post, in hold ing which he must depend more upon his enemies than his friends." " Then," exclaimed my Irish friend, " God bless me ! he means his brother"—(Laughter). —" But perhaps," said 1, it means the case of • a man putting himself into a situation, from which he cannot extricate himself with honour to himself or benefit to his friends." " Why then " said the Irish man, "he means his brother—(Cons iderable laughter). And I dare say the situation of his brother was con tinually crossing his mind whilst he was writing this dispatch." He contended that Constables Bills and Quarter Sessions Bills were inadequate to erase from the minds of a high nation the recollection of years of sufferings, and that nothing . but conciliation could make Ireland that firm supporter of England, which from her situation she was formed to be. He denied that Government could confer any boon upon the, people, because it was the duty of Government to do that which was for the benefit Of the people, whose servants they were; and above all, he denied that any boons had been extended to Ireland. In calling on their Lordships to support this motion, he called upon them to do that which had never been done, namely, to give a pledge that there was a desire to afford to Ire land impartial justice. The Earl of LIMERICK said, the disturbances were confined to the lower orders of the people; the better class of the Catholics, and the Priesthood, tried in vain to deter them. He had met many Captain Reeks, and some of them had told him that their ob ject was to drive away the heretics. But Catholics of property, as well as Protestants, were attacked, tbeir property burnt, or otherwise destroyed, and themselves murdered indiscriminately by these mis creants. It was new , to him to be informed, that in Ireland there was one law 'for the rich and another for the poor. . .He wished that the Catholic Clergy of Ireland would go abroad to be educated, as he was 'sere they would return better Catholics and beam Irishmen... The best thing for the poor. of Ireland' would be to find them employment, and for this pur poite they might encourage and give a bounty for the reorganization of the woollen manufactr.!l, W - •;:cA King William, whom the idlits of thed a y had stde their idol, id o l, suppressed, because it interfered with the woollen wade of England. He wished to neat tha t ' question impartially; but he would rely, that as th e ' Noble Lords opposite had . done much foe Irelaa4 they would yet do more. Lord KING hoped that these who voted agai n* a.motion for inquiry would read the Insurrection An, which he believed was the only efkcient Act this Se„. sion, .and one certainly more fitted fox a slave islanl than a free country. That country was exactly is the same state it bad been in for the last tisenty.th ree years. In fact, the principle of the Li h Goverrone,, t was a complete paradox They had a sound and ii. beral Constitution established which was the sport 4 factions. The Church of England had been trac t ,, planted there. but anything but peace and g0 0 d„.4 preSailed. They had an esubet ant soil, with ati ttu k ant misery. His opinion was, that the peopl e wolf always what the Government made them; atd suck indeed was the Government of that coaraff,. that the name of Ireland was a disgrace to the 64: Used world. If their Lordships refused to go i nt . inquiry now, they would add to the triumph o f t h at factioa which was perhaps 'even then enjoying the Itriumph of the 0. ange hero on his return f rom a v ii,. grimage to the &relish Legislature. • . The Duke of LEINSTER, in adverting to the li, stitution for the promotiOn of Education in I.ciaM, said, that he had left it two years ago because of i:s conduct, and if some reformation vete n , ;t made, could not stand. The Marquis of L ANSDOWN was noxious, h e f,.. e he rose, to have heard from the Noble L , rd rypcs• site why, after Cie interval of a year, the promische had made that the evils of Leland shoald be probed to the very bottom, had never yet been redeemed, although Ireland was in a more dangerous state than she had been in since the Rebellion of 1798? The Noble Earl had done him much honour, by saying that the remedies which he (the Marquis-of Lang. down) had suggested, had been adopted; hot the Noble Maiter of the Mint, afraid that he should be intoxicated with too much praise, had taken care inform the Ilouse that he had all those 14:medics is his mind, though they had not then been br, ught into action. Some of those measure, had irmn acted upon, and others not been brou,,;lit into I lay at all, As to Sir John Newport's Bill, to allow the impost of Irish corn into this country, it was a measure of the most clear and obvious justice; for how could we expect Ireland to take broad cloth, hard. ware, and our other manufactures, it we did not in turn take provisions from her, which was, in deed, known to be her principal article of commerce? With respect to roads, and other public milks, they would find that they were still made perfect jobs, be cause they were done by presentments; and in pilaf .of this, he read the Report of one of the Civil Engi neers employed by Government. Yet the Noble Lord selected Grand Jury Presentments as one of the pion in which Ministers and Parliament had benefitted Ire land. He denied that the bounty of Parliament had been granted in support of the existing Catholic Schools under the direction of the Priests, and he wished to know why it had not been so granted; Gar he could not see the statesmanlike policy of saying that an uneducated Catholic could become a better subject than one who had received the advantages of 'education? Why had not the national system of ect (cation been adopted, which was to have been accom plished by taking two-and-a-half per cent. from the Church property ? When the Insurrection Act, or any other violent unconstitutional Act was to be passed, it was hurried through Parliament with most indecent haste; but the warm recommendatiOns of the most respectable Commoners, when they interfered with local interests, or individual abuses, were passed over unattended to. Nothing but bad institutions could I have produced the evils under which Ireland laboured, and therefore it was not to ordinary means that we could look for the extinction of evils of such over whelming magnitude, and certainly not to weak or paltry measures. It was only by a firm determination to uphold the existing laws that were good, and to part with those that were bad, that any one could look . for the affections of the people, or for what was by some thought of more consequence, the preservation of Ireland, to assist us in the day of our danger and distress. In Ireland they had a Church separated front the great body of the people, and which had no hold of them in the way of moral improvement. He was sorry for this, but there was no use to concealit. They had also an idea in Ireland labouring under the strong suspicions on the part of the people, that the late was , not their friend, and that through it they could sat look for protection. Out of 2540 offices, to which Ca tholics might enter by law, there wereonly 160 occu pied by Catholics. This must convince the Home that there must be something done to pull up theft& sent system by the roots, in order to . plant a new me deep in the affections of the peOple. lie could not* noticing one subject as operating with great effect in forming combinations in Ireland, namely, the rooted opinion amongst the lower classes, as to the super_ior sanctity of an oath taken amongst themselves, how" ever opposed the engagement might be to their legiance, or their moral duties in society. He la mented that in the inquiry in the House of Colman, some nights since, when a person of education want questioned as to a particular fact, he alleged aim ex cuse for not making 'disclosures—his oath of secrecy, that when this circumstance occurred, on which the eyes of the country *ere fixed, the opportunity should not have been taken of checking the p er niciousbelk_r a of the sum for sanctity of such engagements, and a giving the law a triumph. The Earl of LIVERPOOL assured their lordships thati thfhaen that of their hadconsulted Lo hi rs sdperhig henal csrovuleaaienb:oes rather t prop o sed an not, wolho a w d e j v o e u r rn , me do n t t ha zf btuhtisthdrieswcuhssiimons.di He their indulgence, in case he should fail to make biro. self intelligible. With regaid to the motion'of the . Noble Duke, he did. not think it was one which t h at Lordships Ought to assent to. He regretted'the call' mities of Ireland, and ad:bitted the expediency taking measures to remove them. But the went far. beyond this,•.for it wept to thrOWthe'whillP weight of those calamities upon his Majesty's Gore!' meat. He would "not. folio* the example •of thole who hid gonelnto the .ancient pricy of the Oiler_ smut of Ireland :4ie did not mean to dereid.ft- Hut with reference to its modern Governrialt , O?" :men justly said that no period had ever been iv V at n ey el at at he •ill ad e I it