Star. — London, England, 1822-06-04 00:00:00

:Tr . those justifiable grounds of petitioning, that bound, with the greatest r'eluctanc'e, to vote rejection. There was also a point of form once struck him as being objectionable in the of-the Petition. It was taiitta remonstranm if his recollection served him right, it was ut the custom to call such applications Retitions. should not have considered this a sufficient reason rejecting the Petition; but when he looked ' animus in which the whole had been drawn . he found this word remonstrance in conjunction .. the language he had heard in the second reading of the Petition, he had no difficulty in determining that it ought not to be received. He was convinced that it would form a rule that would lead to future. Peti tions of a still more objectionable nature. If the lan gnage it contaiiilid were not insulting to the House, he was at a loss to know what would be so. If what the Petitioners stated were true, they had better ab dicate this branch etthe Legislature at once. He as sured the House that it was with the greatest pain he came to the conclusion of voting against the recep tion of the Petition. Mr. J. SMITH did not believe many of the alle gations contained in the Petition. The one with re gard to the army was altogether false. He was cer tain that those who composed it were wholly inca pable of the conduct imputed to them. But he felt considerable difficulty in rejecting a Petition of this kind, and he was determined not to do so by what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite who had lately accepted office. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, that before rejecting a Petition, they ought to besatisfied that there was an intended insult, and this had not been made out in the pre sent case. He believed there were many persons who thought every word contained in this Petition to be true. He, however, did not think so, and he knew that part of it which related to the Army to be grossly false. Mr. PEEL explained, and contended that the Peti tioners shewed a marked disrespect to the House. The House then divided on the motion for re ceiving the Petition, when there appeared— For the Motion Against it 89 Majority . A .paramount fmp...., stated on a fornieroceasion. . op - , y_o not inclined to concede if to an_tlic7 —. . ~ . nt. The CHANCELLOR.of the EXCHEQUER said, pose the ameridrite the question to be brought forward . by the Hon. and Mr. RICARDO said, that the Chancellor of the Learned Member was unqueorichiably one of import- -Exchequer was about to bring in a clause, to be in ance, but not as to the time of its being discussed. serted in his own Bill, authorising these Commissioners Mr. KENN/AT expressed himself muc h di sii p. to deal with one another—(A laugh).—The Right pointed at the reflisil of the Chancellor of the Exche- Hon.. Gentleman had told the House he was' not so quer ; and said, that his (Mr. Kennedy's) motion young a mad or so young in office as to bring for might probably be allowed to come on after the pre- ward a measure which he could not carry into effect. The present measure had, however, failed•in the first sent question was disposed of. . ' The CHANCILLOR of the ExCifiQUaft and Sir J. instance, and the Right Hon. Gentleman was now MACitisTosii mutually explained; and the motion Pot to his shifts. It was not improbable that, after was then put and agreed to. all, the Right Hon. Gentleman would come down to On the question being put for receiving the Report, the House, and honestly confess that the five mil- Mr. CALCRAFT begged to call the attention of lions of Sinking Fund was a delusion, and that it the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite to the Salt Tax was now reduced to three. He should certainly vote ' Repeal. He (Mr. Calcraft) had received many corn- for the amendment. munications from persons interested in the Fisheries, The Marquis of LONDONDERRY congratulated which were, it seemed, to bear the Salt Tax of 2s. the House on the two jokes they had heard ; one from. per buihel. It was the opinion of those persons that the Hon. And_Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham), the fisheries would not be able to bear the tax; and and the other from the Hon. Member for Portarling: he could not refrain from letting the Right Hon. Gen- ton—(4 laugh). Nothing whatever in the shape of demad know the circumstance, since be must nattp ,argument had been offered in support of the amend -rally be desirous to know the opinion of those who ment—(Cheers front the (..)position). Something was were interested in his taxes. 'He trusted this fact said about the 'age of his on. Friend; but it had not would make some impression on the Right Hon. Gen- been shewn that his proposal partook of either in deman, and that he would not persevere in a tax fancy or age. The difference of expense to the Pub which must materially injure so beneficial and na- lic, as to the second set of Commissioners, would be tional a branch of our trade as the fisheries. The very trifling ; and if, therefore, nothing further were duty on rock salt ought also to be reduced. offered against it, he considered the plan of his Right The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER said Hon. Friend to be altogether untouched. The amend that all the advantages he had mentioned when he ment before the House went to restrict their opera opened the subject would be allowed during the tions, and to force them to borrow from the Sinking whole of the fishing season. The question might Fund ; whereas it was the object of the original Re afterwards be-considered when it regularly came be- solution to enable the contracting parties to deal with fore the House, but the present was not a fit time whatever Stock they might think advantageous. The for its discussion. Annuity Stock might be what was termed a heavy Mr. D. GILBERT said the pilchard fishery in article on the market, and therefore it was desirable Cornwall alone gave employment to , upwards of that both sides should have a certain discretionary 10,000 persons, and called for the use of 90,000 power with regard to it, that the Trustees and the bushels of salt annually. The persons engaged in Commissioners of the Sinking Fund might possess the exportation of pilchards were very anxious to the full power of dealing . freely with each other. It know whether they would be considered io the pro- was for that reason that it would be desirable that posed allowances; and he trusted the Right Hon. the Amendment of the Hon. Member for Penryn' Gentleman would state distinctly that whith would (Mr. Grenfell) should be adopted. It was an error' remove their anxiety. in the Sinking Fund Act not to have given that power The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said t o the Commiss ioners; and in adopting that Hon. , he presumed his Hon. Friend was not in the House Gentleman's Amendment, they would only be ere when he opened the subject. He then-stated that the cuting the spirit of the original measure. The plan duty would be arranged so as to fall almost imper- of his Right Non. Friend was to place all the parties ceptibly on the consumer, and allowance would in the best and most advantageous state. It gave an be made to those who exported fish to foreign markets. additional purchaser to the one, and an additional Sir R. FERGUSSON stated that the barrel of her-. article to the other, to go to market with. His Right rings now sold from 16s. to 18s. in the foreign mar- Hon. Friend was taunted with having brought for ket. If a tax of 2s. were imposed on salt this trade, 'ward a scheme upon false expectations ; he certainly would be destroyed ; for two bushels were requiret had expected that if that House should vote it, it for the barrel in the home markets, three bushels for would be accomplished, and he had also hoped to the Mediterranean, and four bushels for the West make it a national plan. When he brought it for- Indies. Such a tax would cut up both the herring ward. he knew of one great Company at least, the and pilchard fisheries. . South Sea Company, that was willing to contract, Mr. GRENFELL concurred in what bad fallen and he begged to say, that in whatever - light that from his Hon. Friend (Mr. D. Gilbert), in favour Company might be regarded, it was not for want of of the Cornwall Fisheries. The duty affecting them funds that it had failed in realising the expectations would, in its consequences, be a tax of not less than of his Right Hon. Friend. Money enough had been fifteen per cent. upon their capital. subscribed, but other causes operated in inducing Sir JOHN NEWPORT complained of the mode them to reject a participation in this plan. Except in which the Leather Tax was assessed in Ireland : ing, therefore, that the congratulations of a former it was assessed by measurement, and not, as formerly, evening had been turned into a few joke; on the pre by weight, a mode which he considered as highly sent occasion, he had heard nothing that could in objectionable.—After a few words from Mr. Cuawxw, duce him to accede to the proposition of the Hon. Mr. HUME rose to oppose the motion for reeeiv- Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume). They were told ing the Report. He thought it absolutely necessary that this was exactly the same plan as was recom that we should return to a correct mode of conduct- mended to thorn to adopt by Honourable Members ing our finances. He had not the least objection to on the other side of the House, at the commence the keeping up of a Sinking Fund, provided he could ment of the Session. All that he could say upon be assured that it would not be laid hold of by the that head was, that he knew that this plan would in Chancellor of the Exchequer. That Right . Honour- no way at the end of 45 years have diminished the able Gentleman had already taken between six and. Sinking Fund, whilst the recommendations they re seven millions of annual income from this Fund ; and ceivedTroin the other side were all, in-substance, to yet he had since assured the House that they.'would make an open attack upon that Fund. The only re be altogether violating the Sinking • Fund if they semblance it could be considered to bear to those con touched it. He did not blame the Right Honourable siderations was, that in the early years certain loans Gentleman for touching the Sinking Fund; but he would be raised ; but these would affect the market, blamed him for talking one way and acting another. and not the Sinking Fund. It should be borne in It was most inconsistent to buy and sell annuities at mind by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, in their specula the same time. It was a round-about way of doing' tions on this subject, that there were two five millions. that which might easily be simplified. It was better There was one besides the Sinking Fund, and there to proceed, simply and honestly in the management fore, for the future, all their calcolatiuns'and - all their of our finances, and to free them from complexity.-- jokes must be made upon the actual existence of ten He therefore moved, as an amendment, a Resolution; millions available, instead of five only. For the rca " " That it Is' expedient to take from the Sinking Fund a sum sons he had stated he must- vote against the-Amend. 1 equal in amount to that proposed to be relied for the payment of ment ; and he contended that the plan of his Right 1 Naval and Military Pensions." Hon. Friend would realise all the expectations which Mr. GRENFELL seconded the Amendment.— be had founded upon it. Whenever loans were wanted, he thought it was al- Mr. CALCRAFT said he really could not under ways desirable to draw the money out of the hands stand the Nolile Lord's two , five millions. He did not, of the Conimissioners for managing the Sinking Fund. however, rise 0 taunt the Chancellor of the Exche- Should the amendment be rejected, he certainly hi- quer for the complexion and shape his plan at present tended to propose a clause similar in words and mean- bore, which he thought no generous mind could do. ing to that proposed in 1786 by Mr. Fox: It would , Especially ought Hon. Gentlemen, on, hi aide of the be a clause empowering these Commissioners to pay House to do so, since it was plain that in all he had the money in their hands on account of lops. done he was crawling in a steady but- sure progres • Mr. BROUGHAM said a slight alteration of words sion to what they had pointed out at the beginning would make the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman of the Session. This would be found to be the 'end and that of his Hon. Friend precisely the same. The of the Noble Lord's two five millions, and therefore Right Hon. Gentleman proposed two sets of Corn- they ought to be the better pleased in prtiportion as missioners ; one for reducing the National Debt, and they saw the Chancellor of: the Exchequer swerving the other for increasing it. Why not save the trouble 'from his original course.' It was not altogether fair of bringing One set of them' into existence? They to lay the failure of the annuity scheme to the Chan must afterwards be pretty well nurtured, a's most , vellor of the Exchequer. The fact was, that it was public infants required to be. At present here was a the Noble Lord himself who announced it wish so . set ready made ,to - their hands, grown up and in full smell confidence to the House that no one could Maturity.—(A laiigh).—They were precisely of the doubt that he had. the contractors all ready at his same cast as that of the set proppsed to be created. hack ; and the.Chano..llor of the Exchequer was only —The present Commissioners might sit on the same brought forward to announce the failure. The Noble. day, and at the same place in their united capacity, Lord said it was not the same as the recommendation and might be empowered to deal in the Stock. The from that side 'of the House, and that no infringe plan fur double Commissioners was a senseless, de- ment Of - the Sinking Fund was involved in this plan. l grading mummery; and it was proposed just to make ,For his own'. part he must say that he saw no diger a be thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman was ence between applying i;2;200,000 tolhe redemption really net. touching the Sinking Fund. It was a of what it was wisked to get rid of, and bringing clumsy, absurd; and complex machinery, Calculated into operation the Sinking Fund. In the • mooting entirely to delude the Public ; and Le should there- they were to crate a Stock, ' and in - the evening, or .. And the Petition was consequently rejected. Mr. COKE then rose to present another Petition for Reform from the County of Norfolk. It was, the Honourable Member said, from a County he was proud to represent, and it contained the sentiments of men who shewed that they were determined man fully to speak their minds even in the worst of times. The Petition was confined to a prayer for Reform.— It was worded according to the feelings he possessed himself, and. there was not an expression in it in which he did not heartily concur. He considered that the Country was reduced' to poverty . and ap proaching ruin by the present Administration; an Administration composed of Ministers who were alto gether callous to the sufferings of the People. Al though the Petition had been agreed to at a most respectable County Meeting, he could scarcely hope that it would be received as it was worded at present. He had however derived much satisfaction at wit nessing the-respectable minority on the late motion for a Reform in that House ; and he had no doubt that if the corrupt part of the majority were taken away, it would be found that that motion had, been carried.—The Petition was then brought up, read, and (no opposition being offered to it) was ordered to lie on the table and be printed. :. 4. ' . . . .. ~ . . , .. . . . a . _ • • . , . . 4 . •.. . . . '. L .... • ' 4 . , . 1 • • . . ... . . . . . • . 1. . • . • . . . ••• 4 . 4 No ,IN . • 1.. • Hoe. 'of the in a ink and , end, „El would M Amendment of . of the after sub. L tracting two from _ - renrain.—(A o laugh),--He could int understand why the C,ha s i ce t, r of the Exchequer shoaldlirefer hi. own complex Machinery to flit of the Hon.)4ember for Montrose. Er the former £7,200,000 would be lost to the na. ion, and by the , latter only £ s,oooPoo.—i-The Houma. then divided, when there appeared-- . _ . For the Amendment 54 - Against it • - $1 Majority for the.originsi Resolution -In Uponthe Resolutions being read a second time, Mr. HUM 4 proposed, as an A mendmeot, that the- Commissioners of the Sinking Fund•should beautho. rased and required to advance to his Majesty's Trea stiry, out of the monies under their controul, the yearly sum necessary to make up 'the amount re quired for the payment of the naval and military pensions, when added to 2,800,0001. for the first-fif teen years; and that, for the following thirty years, the Lords of his Majesty's Treasury be brdered to issue from the Exchequer the sums as stated in the ' tables of the annuities to the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that all who had heard the Hon. Member's motion must premise that it was substantially the same as that upon which the House had just conic to a deci sion. He did not, therefore, think it necessary to make any observations upon it. The question was then put and negatived without a diVision. • On the Resolution for enabling the Trustees to sell any portion of the Annuities being read a second time, Mr. GRENFELL said, he thought that was the proper time for him to propose hi. Amendment. The Hon. Gentleman then moved that the follo, ing Amendment be added to the Resolution—.. That it shall be lawful for the Commissioners for the Re demption of the National Debt, if they think it ex pedient, to apply the monies under their controul to purchase part or the whole of any portion of the an nuities as the Trustees may find it expedient to sell, or to purchase any other annuities created by order of Parliament."—He hoped that, whenever any por tion of the annuities - might be for sale, the Commis sioners would be - disposed to purchase. The CHANCELLOR cf the EXCHEQUER diJ not mean to oppose this Amendment, but begged to state that, in agreeing to it, it was to be understood that the Commissioners were . to be left entirely to their own discretion. . The Resolution was then agreed.to, so amended. SALT TAX.. On.the Resolution for the repeal of 13s. of the 15s.' duty upon every bushel of salt, being read a second time, _ _ _ Sir4.-SEiiiill-GHT said .he hoped the interval pro- posed to elapse before the remission of this portion of the tax, would be abridged, as the market during that period would be glutted, whilst the ordinary activity of enterprise:would be checked in antici pating the'arrival of the period when the duty was to be taken. off. Mr. CURWEN thought it would be better to take off the whole of the tax. Agriculture would then be benefitted, the fisheries would thrive, and it would be taken as a boon to the whole People; but from the . partial relief proposed, none of these objects would be accomplished. The Honourable Gentle man concluded by moving as an amendment, that the whole of the Tax upon Salt be repealed from and after the sth October, 1822. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that • the House had tesolved on a particular plan to 'be enabled to remove a certain portion of taxation ; and if they altered any part of that plan they must break down the whole system. If this amendment were adopted, they must either rescind the resolit. tions they had come to relative to the remission of certain taxes in order to make room for it, or what, in his opinion, was infinitely worse, they must refer to the Sinking Fund—(Cheers from the Opposition benches). —If the arguments which were urged in support of such a step possessed any weight at all, his case was stronger by those atguments ; for if a man contended his plan involved any infringement upon the Sinking Fund, it became them to adhere with greater pertinacity to what remained—(Hear, hear).—lf they went further than he proposed in the remission of taxation, they must necessarily intrude upon that Fund. • The House was pledged to main tain the Sinking Fund inviolate, and it could not adopt any measure having a contrary tendency.— With respect to the particular proposition before them, he believed that the remission of thirteen shillings out of fifteen shillings, would give the consumer as much benefit as though the whole 15s. were taken off. There would be so little remaining, that for all prac tical purposes it would be imperceptible. The reduc tion in the price of salt, from 17s. or 18s. to 4s. or ss. would operate so beneficially that the remaining iMpost, bringing in a revenue of it:800,000 a year, would not be felt as a burden, whilst, by the Amend ment of the Hon. Member, that sum would be lost to the Public. He must observe also, that the propo sition of the Hon. Member came by surprise, as it would have been mote approptiate to have made it on the Bill for the tepeal of the tax, than on the dis cussion on the original arrangement. If the Hon. Member persisted in his motion, he would have his decided opposition. The relief to the Public would be substantially the• same, as far as the consumer was Concerned, as from a total remission of the tax. Nte duty on the article of salt would then be less than it , was in the time of King William, and also less than it was at present in France and in the Netherlands. , The House could not agree to adept the Amendment whilst it continued firm in a dctermination to. pie serve the public credit. • Mr. BROUGHAM congratulated the House on file new light which had broken in upon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer since the tummencement of the Sesaion. He then could not see that any teliet vieul4 . . ..• . . . , .... .•........ • • . Stow - •••••••••--°' lo' tbe '•• . 10 . i l4 .. ~,, Orilla 'fitr ou nir meet ~ . - i , . 7* . iti tikapi t rate. his to minim it. Whate v e r e y. . „ • s , the Onus* , ~ • • • Oss, I feet it have on the S laking Fund he was sads. hat he felt lantinn now 44 .., ''*P -. ' - ", ' . ... The CH . AN 1a a ,' 4 .. 4 i: • ". i ' •said, -shoejliilhei litmus lithe ~. •• , ,t. . • . Ilied.of // stilt it would have in the way of dimi- , ote for its . l '' to the Mr. T. WILSON' said We - • trovetil• of .the shit . * the burthen a taxation. The Right H i which at it waits r # " ...: . 1.1 l anc• • (au reonesS • ; . ,o i ~ •"' • , 7 . _ . The ' original Olin, and shouldpthe a ; , ' aiaettdrneet. Gentaman would not believe, at the opensot of the ie wording -. . Now, present q, , ..., ,tel was one • gr eet Ittancial ins- Celonel 1) A VIES said Ole amendment west merely Session, that tree people would be happier and in a portante, ha. • - • • • .7 - 00t-Ultraticlitra dig `, to put eita Sinking . Fund in the .situation of the pre. better condition, -by being able to eat and drink and uniformly dap. understanding that it was to have isiltleity to. fincepantiututs,inulhaphould Supphit the amendment. wear their 'shies at -11* ebeitrirtater• ifiroro t dd e nd. amts. He The Bill alluded-to - hY•theallutlad..Lesuned The - CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, however, to his disappoinuneutithke they would be reason for art - he 'should decline going over tirguments whichhe had much . aisLsier, - -Ma must-suppost the Amendment of Gentleman could be brottet lon to - Trim - iv. ed for the and Sir JAMES MAeICINT O3II toldi 'the:question offerecrbeFore;ond e el i tad received the sanction his Hon. Friend:loe Wyllie. Tor Montrose. • n up,' a which he seat himself to bring on tit-morrow was of of the House. 'lt t plan, he contended, wa} Sir F. BLAKNOlsserved thattheChancellor of the tction with such .paramouot importaofe, that at - present by w as not at all i n consistent w ith the principles 'he had Eschequer wanted th pettuaelethata that' after sub. reading of .. . _/' -.. ...... .tilisr . • stated on a fortner occasion. fie should therefore op- tracting two from , eve, 514 would still rem' PENSION BILL The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day fur the House receiving the Re port Of the Committee on the Naial and Military Pensions Bill, Lord A. HAMILTON said, he must take that op portunity of calling the attention of a Learned Lord. opposite, to the Bill which he had brought in, and now, it seemed, had abandoned, for the abolition of certain places in Scotland. The House had refused to give him (Lord A. Hamilton) permission to bring in such a Bill, and the Learned Lord bad afterwards taken leave to bring it in himself. The Learned Loid had said that he would have accounted for the delay which had taken place since the Bill was first brought in, had the House not been counted out on the motion for its second reading. He (Lord A. Ha milton) was perfectly aware that the Bill would ul timately be abandoned, and that there was no chance of abolishing these places, though a Bill for that pur pose had been introduced eight years ago. He now, in the face of the House, called upon the Learned Lord to give a reason for the delay. The LORD ADVOCATE said, it had been ad mitted that those offices could not be abolished with out giving indemnity to the individuals who held them, and against whom no misconduct whatever had been alleged. This indemnity would amount to between four and five thousand pounds a year to be paid by the •Public, although the expense of the offices was at present borne by individuals. The Judges of the Scottish Courts had, however, declared their opinion that the dutie s discharged 17 these offi cers could not be dispensed with ; and it was then proposed to transfer those duties to the local Magis trates, who would .of course be entitled to an addi tional remuneration on this account, and thus .the Public would be burthened with a double expense. Ale had suggested that the officers should be allowed to remain, and that as they gradually fell in by the death or resignation of the pres4nt holders, they ,should not be filled up, but that their duties ;should ' be gradually transferred to the Magistrates. Since' then many communications had been made to him., on the subject; representing the necessity of his con sulting the Judges on this subject, and he felt the ne cessity of his doing so. These and other circum stances had induced him to postpone the Bill in ques tion for the present Session ; and in the interim, he was authorised to say, that should either of those Offices fall in question the recess, it would be filled up oily until the . Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, there was an .Order of the Day which from its nature might.. be. thought to have precedence of every other. It was the Bill of an lion. Friend of his (Mr. Kennedy) respecting the Law of Scotland, and which could not be conveniently diseUksed in the absence of the Learned Lord opposite (the Lord Advocate) who was about to leave town on his . offitial duties. He hoped, therefore, that the Right Hon. Gentleman would al- „ . I . ► . ,Or 1 t the 011 0 , res .. be Le I r57+ 7 . 7 7'