Star. — London, England, 1817-05-22 00:00:00

—• which had been presented to the House some ag., for the particulars of the c4ses nn which, .per sr;. is of the law had been called fur. l'l‘e c •se. w.ich was in Noremb.4 . . IRIS, originat4 apple Ati sioied by thirty OM of the thirty. • Vl.4g.iii fairs is; she erunty 01 Lowth, and it might 44iirthat the applic4tinn was nn wrimous, as the sliY one Nl.c!sstr.tr whose' name did nut appear upon be application, WAS absent from the fleeting through sin 3 he hcl;eved he was correct in say. lilt. that 111•41 h abultr, his opinion cninelded with •th „f the other fslagis•r.ttes. Government having • irltl r. 4 int the e:rcurnst owes f the riotous pro. ce.-d;ngs on :which this w4S founded, con rider,-4.1 rha , tin. case was one of mere individual out-1 race, which slid not call for the operati , in of the es tie vdiiiacy rowers of this Art, mot therctoee did not at firs , c .mply a it . ' the app:ication. It was not m ill the 'meth of February fAlowin,., that Govern. Die , .t at ce led to this application, being by that time coi;stoceil. by Ili.• mem tepee of repeated outrages and --ts 01 vi .Ivoce sitboliient to those on which the , eppiwarton m is founded, that an extensive aid flan g eons spirit of insurrection was at work, which could only he %oppressed by the exercise of the powers con-, furred by this Act. This rise would, he trusted, 1w sufficient to skew the House that the Irish Govern ment was not disposed to put in force this Act except in cases 01 absolute necessity. As to the operation a the Act, it was to he itbserved, that it did not SUSr prod the ordinary administration of the laws Ai to ordinary offences; it only made a new offence, for which it provided A new pdnishment. It was-still in force in the coign , ies of Lowth, Tipperar!, and Li merick. As to the time dosing which he thought it necessary to call upon the House to extend the ope. ration of the Act, he observed, that toimerly, its continuance bad been limited to seven years, and latterly to three years; but on the present occasion Ile did nut propose to continue it longer titan oae year- r (llear. hear, hear.) —He concluded by moving for" leave to bring in a Bill to continue the insur. .rection Act for a time to be limited."—The Motion was agreed to. •MOTION Yon REPEAL OF THE SEPTENNIAL ACT. Mr. BROUGHAM—" I rise, Sir, to give notice, that I shall on the sth day of J ine, as the first open clay, submit a motion to the House, for the repeal of the Septennial Act."— (Cries of Hear, hear ! from the Opposition.) Mr. Banc:mins' then observed, that fearing the motion on the day he had mentioned might interfere with a motion which already stood fur that day, he sh o uld drier it till the lOth of June. ALLEGED PROTECTION TO INVOkASEkI. Sir JAMES MACINTOSH rose. pursuant to his notice, to wove that trere or laid h.lore the House copies of all common cati,ais, doect or indirect, which had passed between the cli:e of the Home Department and a person of the name of Pool, who had taken a very active part in certain prosecutions, lately histstuted against s.,n► persons concerning the sale of scone pubhcathsor. As to the facts which he had to state-to the Howe on the subject, he thought it necessaly to notice, moat he did not state them from his .own personal knowledge—bat he had them firm persons ut the highest respectability—from per. urns on whose credit he placed such reliance that he would, without hesitation, act upon it in any the most important of his own personal concerns. The facts which had been communicated to him on this high authority were these :—lt appeared that a per son of t' e name of Pool, of whom he (Sir James) knew nothing. had been of late very active in laying inforniation , against various persons, and among others had laid informations against tln•ee persons, whose names were Parkinson, Fletcher, and Dea. con. When the proceedings on these informations bad attracted the public notice, and when it appeared that they were not likely to be legally substantiated, mid that the persons concerned in the prosecution had been guilty of some proceedings with relation to it which were so unwarrantable as to make' (Lam amenable to the law,. this person, Pool, gave it to be understood, that while these proceedings store going on. he had some commun cation, verbal or 'mitten, with the Secretary of State for the Home Depart. ment, or with some person whom he believed to be authorised by the Home Department to communi cate with him.' Pool had lone so far as to say, that he had received assurances from a respectable person, ne t a m e mber of this House, but concerned in the office of the Hc.me Department, that be ( Pool) would be protected hum any inconvenience in consequence of the part he had taken in those prosecutions—( H ea r, Jeer.) It even appeared. that Pool bad chewed a letter, purporting to be from the Gentleman to whom he alluded, containing assurances of such protection. This letter had been shown by Pool to a Magistrate of the County, in which these proceedings had taken place, a man of the highest honour and credit, from whom he (Sir James) had this information. On this short statement the observations which occurred to him divided themselves into two parts—as to the acts of this man, Pool, and as to the inference to be drawn horn his representations. That thii person really had in his possession such a letter as he bad described, was a fact which appeared at present un questionable, and the only question which could arise as to this, was on the authenticity of the letter. It was also unquestionable that the effect produced by shew iag this letter was very sericus—(ilme, hear.) A mischievous impression was produced, that the King's Government, instead of protecting and aiding the execution of the law and of public justice, bad Utter posed its influence to screen an individual from the operation of the law—(ll.ar, hear.) That a contra diction should be given to the representations of this man, that this contradiction should apply not only to letters written by the Secretary of State himself, or by any one under him, or by his order—that it should extend to a full account of all that had passed on the subject, directly or indirectly, either vasbally or in writing—that such an explanation was miens* the statement of tact: slimed. • If such an explanaal lion were given it would atlord him very great satis faction. But a lull explanation of the nature of this i stern nuse was necessary, in order to thew that his Majesty's Government were not concerned in a con spiracy to protect persons who were guilty of crimes for which they were amenable to the law, Th e c i t . cumstances in which the country now stood, ren dereo such an explanation the more necessary. The house bad lately entrusted the Government with vrry extseordanary pott et:. The situation which pro totted such elll44,ldso4sy measures called upo.i she House to exercise a tenfold Vigilance over the mode in which those powers were executed. Tht ready be lief of this man in the protection which he said had been pr. mised liiin in the name of the Government, proCee.ted no don't from the Circular Letter lately issued by the Secretary of State for the Home De partment—a letter, which though he had believed it to hive been well designed, had, from the particular time at which it had been issued, produced the very worst effects. It had the effect of giving the counte *ratite and authority of Government to the eraspe rate.i passions of a favoured party in the country, it had 'he detestable effect of changing the morality of actions according to the party to which the person belonged. It even appeared that the effect produced by that Circular Letter was not confined to the lower circles, but had extended even to the very highest Magistrate.•. Without at present anticipating Cie discussion which would in due time come on as to the legality of that letter, he would men ly say this—if one were to judge from the effect produced on Ma gistrates. as evinced by their recent conduct, it would seem that their opinion was, that their jurisdiction was more estressive than they had previously con ceived it to be. This letter had also the effect of goading and stimulating them to the exercise rt Omit powers to the fullest stretch. If his thus bringing the subject before the louse produced a satisfact.,:y ex planation of the circumstances of the case, lie would be satisfied; ►ut whatever the result might be, lie would feel that be had L one his dity. He truest moved that tittle be laid before the House copies of all corn mnnications from the Secretary or Under Secretary of &ate for the Home Department, or from any per son by their order, with John Elliston 1001, touching a charge brought against certain persons before Powss Clark. Mr. ll 'LET A DDINGTON—TiII be had heard the speech of the Honourable and Learned Gentle. man, he was very much at a loss to know the reasons of the notice which had been given of the motion now before the House, or of the grounds on which that motion was to be brought forward. In conse quence, however, of that notice, the transaction to which it alluded' having taken place at a time when he was unable to attend at the odice to which he had the ho.logr to belong, he had made some inquiry into the circumstances relating to it. He was read, to admit that several fetters bad passed between the person whose polite was mentioned in the motion, and his (Ms. Addington's) friend and colleague Mr. Lecke'. Emy in April last a letter was received at ti.e office of the Home Depaitmeni, addressed to the U..der Secretary of State, and purporting to be winter by the individual mentioned in the motion, al s o represented tumult as employed by the Office for regolatiog Pedlars' licenses. It was probably All extrelite Zeal which prompted that individual so write this letter, which was addressed to a Departmtin wi,ere he was wholly unknown, and with which he had never before then had any communication. Tu that letter • very short answer was returned, which contained only two or three lines, acknowledging the receipt of this letter—in Amt. it was an ansaer written in the established form used at the office At the reply to letters of which it teas necessary to take little :woe notice than merely to acknowledg e that they had been received. The receipt en his first lot: ter being thus noticed, was probably what induced the individual rs write again, and two or three fetters were subsequently received, which were also an swered much in the same way. This was previous to the `list of April. Since that time iwo or three mute letters had been received from hiffi, to which no answer at all had been sent. No communication of any description had takes, place between the Re verend Magistrate whose name was also implicated in this transaction (Mr. Powis), and the Secretary of State tor the Hone Department, or any other person in his office, on the subject. To chew how averse his Noble Relation at the head tit that office was to interfere in such cases, he could: state to the House, that about three weeks ago a letter had been shewn to that Noble Person, addressed Iseldr. Powis to the' Lwd Lieutenant of his county, _ g two or dike questions, to which he wished • receive an swers from the Secretary of State, k( ear, hear).— eliat i cin This letter the Lord Lieutenant himself had brought to his Noble Relation, and had afterwards called to aik whether any answer would be given to the goes tioni ? But the Noble Secretary of State replied, that as the questions related to the construction of an Act of Parliament, it was a subject on which he did not think it his duty to interfere; neither did he consider it his duty to express any opinion as to the nature or character of any particular publication which the in dividual who transmitted it to his office might consi der as of a blasphemous or seditious nature—that in all such cases die' Magistrate must act upon his Own discretioe, aided by such legal advice as he might think proper or could obtain. This was the only notice which had been taken of the matter by his Noble , Relation, who declined all interference on the sub ject as not within the sphere of his duty. As to the observations bt the Honourable and Learned Gentle man on the areolo . letter of the Secretary of State, the proper time for discussing it would be on the mo tion of which notice had been given. But as to the letter to the person named in the motion, he could assure the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, that AS far as the credit of the Home Department was concerned he should have no objection to that letter being read at Charing-Cross. As to the facts stated by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, he could only assure him, that either through the mis representations of the individual to whom the letters in question were addressed, or from some other means, the facts of the case were totally mis-represented. As to producing thole letters, he would appeal to the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, as a lawyer, whether in a case where a process was instituted in the Court of King's Bench against the Rev. Magis trate entitled to, there might not be passages in such , letters ishich it could be exirentely improper and tin seasoniible to make public in the present stage of these -proceedings, connected as they must be with the action now pendidg. On this ground be must oppose the motion. But he bad also another ob- 1 jection to ir. Papers moved for in this House should not be considered as to be granted as a matter of course. Sometimes (although he did not mean to say' it was the . case in this instance) such papers were moved for out of mere curiosity. Sometimes (*nit i such he believed to be the present case) they were moved for with a view to establish a charge against' tome individtial connected pith the Eittutive Go. I .. . vernment. The person raovirg for stch papers wis bound to make out a strong prima facie cast of mis conduct against the persoi. or persons implicated. In this, the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, in the present instance, had completely tailei4 but on that it was for the House to decide. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY thought there was ground to oppose the present Motion, on acc .unt the law proceedings, which merely affected Mr. Powis. The correspondence called for was merely that be tween Mr. Beckett and Pool. The Right Honourable Gentleman said that his Honourable and Learned Friend's statement of the facts of the case was rp.t correct, but did not deny that the effect of the kttets writt:n to Pool was such as to make him expect the protection of Glvtronient. • Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, that though his supposition of the correspondence had been con vetted into a fact by the Right Hon. Gentleman I (Mr. H. Addington), he did not think this sufficient to justify him in withdrawing his motion. It was admitted that three letters had been written to Pool, and that Pool had written two more which were not ausweieJ. Pool shewed a letter containing an assur abet that he would tie protected by the Givarnment, whetlitr his proceedings were legal or not ; and the ground of his motion was, that a correspondence had actually taken place, whether it contained an assur ance of that nature or nut. He had no desire that any part of the correspondence should be produced which might affect the proceedings against Powis, lOW pending in the Court of King's Bench. The expLapation given did not appear to him at all suth cient. The description given by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. H. Addington) of the nature ol the letters written by him was too vague an one, and was not sufficient to remove the imeressicin produced by Pool's 'hewing the letter, in which he pretended to have received a promise of indemnification. The House may deal with the motion as they pleased, he would not withdraw it. If the letters written by Mr. Beckett were produced, then it may be known whether that :hewn by Pool was one of them. He had no objection to liwit the motion for Mr. Ileckat's correspondence. r EMPLOYMENT OF THE POOR BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having moved the recommittal of the Employment of the Poor Bill, Lord MILTON said, he doubted much whether the txpectations of the country upon this Subject would be realised In Sheffield and the other great manufacturing towns it could not give much relief, tor the people there could not engage in the works contemplated by the Bill. The measure would be hurtful to parishes, because it would lead them into the temptation of contracting debts, and debts were already the great source of the evils under which the c.iuntty ruff, red. The money etas to be replaced in the course of three years, so that they would have to pay th, interest as well as the principal by that time, when it could not be expected that they would be much recovered from the state in which they were at present. He should wish, therefore, to have the clause left out which regarded the parishes. Mr. LONG WELLESLEY said, he felt consi derable objection to the principle of the Bill; nor did he think the operation of k would be beneficial with respect to public works. There was quite enough of private capital in the country to carry them on— (Hear, hear.)—liaising money by such securities as were proposed, was pursuing a system which all al. lowed to be a bad one. Temporary expedients were of little use. They wanted some permanent measure to meet the distresses of the country. The great in crease of the Poor Rates of late arose from a System of temporary relief adopted from time to time. He was not disposed to oppose the progress of the meat- , sure, and he gave Ministers every credit for their good intentions, but ►re could not approve of the principle of the Bill. Mr. W. SMITH thought that both the tempo rary and permanent relief of the poor were important considerations, though the latter, he would admit, was more so than the former. Permanent relief was a matter of great difficulty ; even Gentlemen who gave their utmost attention to the subject, wise not able to make up their minds as to any particular sys tem. He would give the Right Honourable Gentle man (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) credit for the measure. The motives which led to it, he had no doubt, were humane, but he did not think it would be productive of all the good expected. There were no works carrying on now by private compa nies which were likely to profit by it. He had heard from many individuals, that when they lent money to parishes the recovery of it was very difficult, and theth pattehresoynwsto were generally obliged to have recourse to whose hands it was given for the use of the parish. In place of lending the money to pa rishes, he wished Government had turned their minds to works of public utility, which must at some time be executed. Instead of granting £60,000 to carry on the Plymouth Break-water this Session, there were only thirty thousand pounds granted—(Hear.) The distress he heard was very great rn the County of Cornwall, and it would have been better to have employed the distressed inhabitants there upon that work, by granting £120,000 to carry it on. The work was very useful, and, if postponed, losses might be sustained in a short time, Which, if prevented, would more than counterbalance the expense. The miners, he heard, were at present taking work by auction, as Was the custom among then:, at a price ten times less than they formerly received. There was one instance of work being taken fur nothing, that the men may establish themselves in a mine, and be enabled thereby to continue in employment. In Scotland also the distress was extreme. .1u some parts of that country there was neither work nor .money to purchase provisions. It would be better it a portion of the money to be employed this year in the liquidation of the National Debt were converted to the purpose of furnishing work and subsistence to the people. Thinking that the measure would nvt produce much good, it would be better, in his mind, to withdraw it, and introduce another. Sir W. BURROUGHS said, he would not oppose the measure; but he regretted that Ministers did not apply themselves at as earlier pe7iod to the distresses of the country. He had no doubt of their sincerity in bringing forward the Bill; but if any benefit was ' expected from it, why not propose it earlier ? There 1 1 were some objections to it beside► the delay. It could I not be regarded without suspicion that it may afford to Mini tors the means of selecting u objects et fa your and preference some particular places. r, this ciiciimsta , ce considerable .torrg”taee migh t true men whom !.e Government mig h t b e di to sopp4.tt a( the • t•rel Etf ~;i••a. Ministers would d satow any such intentior. Mr. TllO~li' d Could h: m~urwos. QN Ese co lie u tf i t. T I :r y iii te ils " w h ee o e w lt t . t el e tteni advanced by Government . g in times of diErris, were bound very beneficial. Hr did not eineriain least doubt of the purity of the intentions with • the measure was broup,lit Icr ward. A loan ti! chi qm r B llc may be of eon: iderable use in enabli pet awls to carry on works which they I:ad obliged to d•scuntinue for the want of earital. w as desir a ble that the Commissioriers should at liberty in the loans they might be rhspvted make. There bad been sominhing said aruout bull ilk churches. Now he could not see much ads.. tage that that could be of to tile pub,;e or to the r, lief of the poor, unless indeed it si old be c+lttriei that pews might be let on mortgage, ant then might be of some use. He believed that the Ch; cellar of the Exchequer had designed the plan the of the poor with the most benevolent it.ti Lions, and he sii,c• rely hoped Chet as nomh as pOibii would be done with me money that ... ks Mr. ROSE cooed not help exr,:p s .i ng h is „ t i m i lion at the ingenuity of the 1 - I ,, iii , urasle Member ( .polite, who bad fi and out the motives of the pl an , th e Right Hon. Gentleman, who had discovered, fact, that it wax intended to inP.uenee by that plan tf elections of Members of Parliarn-nt on the dissel tine, and who had w islied that lie would give him , formation as to when that wax to take pia:e. It any Gentleman in the House would read shear of the Commissioners, be isould find that it was at all likely that any such was or evtr cin 11 be intention of the Right lion. Gentleman. It WA) t%e there had been sets of Commissioners on such sub. jeCts, on the reading of wh,ise names it might be ima gined, that by intrigue and management there ni;ghs be some influence over elections. Bit in the pr,sent instance be was sore no man on a calm considernion of the thing could entertain such an idea. He did not. think that very sanguine expectati o ns had been raised in the country by the measure for toe r,l,ri et the pour ; but at all events he hoped it would he pro ductive of some benefit till sonic more perinanert measure ccoold be devised. Mr. IA; iTELToN considered that the Bill was not likely to be pi oductive of Any treat advantage t 3 the labouring pool, for whom it was intender. Mo ney would undoutredly be more plentiful, if there were plenty of employment, but it was nut to be et rected that money would @ow where Ostia WAS litic or uo profit. It WAS absolutely necessary that some inure permanently beneficial system should be cm!- ' trived to remedy the grievance of the cautitry. Ti't present system was bad, but it would be IleCt€Sarr EhAt before measures were brought about for its Are. 1 ration in every respect, the strictest economy should : be adhered to tin the part or his Majesty's Munster s. The House then went into the Committee. Lord MILTON proposed, that tli.2 clauses rela!- ing to grants to parishes should be left out. It was a proposition of which he did not recollect any d precedent, and be did not see that it was altogrther likely to be practised with any great success. it ..ros A plan which WWI./ induce parishes to run tu•re is debt than ever. The CHANCELLOR the EXCHEQUER said, that there was one direct precedent upon subject ot Parish grants. A grant had been made a certain parish an 1801, which was ta be repaid from the poor-rates. The only differente betern the grar.ts which would be made an. 4 that one, w..e:d he hoped be in favour ot th o se who should yet re ceive grants ; fur ilie grant which he tiad instanced had unfortunately never been repaid. ';'be pan which was proposed was never intended to be any thing but temporary. He had considered all the objections which had been made with such pigment by the Noble Lord, and had himself met with some difficulty on the subject ot Grants to Y ansht s, but he could nut but imagine that such 1 plan wtuld be productive cf some advantages. Mr. LOCKHAR 1' said, that the only mole which was made tar the part of the Bill which re lated to parishes, was, that they were so limited and guarded that very few could be expected to Apply for grants under the proposed restrictions. If, however, the clauses were so }warded and limited, tvtiT wa s it incumbent on the House at all to sanction them? Mr. LiATHU KS 1' detelded the (lames. He considered that the clauses relative ta parishes. aad that one more particolatly allaided to by the Noble Lord (M hull), would be productive of sonic benefit to the country. • Mr. LUNG WELLESLEY opposed the clauses. They would, he said, be holding out to occupiers of land to pledge an interest permanently, %sloth they by no means ought tta pledge. ‘VESTLItN was ot opinion that the measure would give to the Government a lien upon the rear property of ihe'coun:ty. It would afford nu etlec tuat relief, while it would bear hard upon the landed interest. He should vote for the Amendment. _ Sir M. W. KIDLEY objected to the chime which made the laud-owners Habit instead of the uccupiegh pat tic oho ly AS that principle had bean so reread' 04 0 jetted to it: the Birmingham Poor Bill. He :man , mended that the clause he had referred to %tumid be wieudrawn, and some better expedient prupt.seJ• Mr. B. BA.THURS'F said, that the clause last meniioned was optional, and, depended upon 4 stbs ot the proprietors coming forward. In th r the "corral benefit, it was but fair that thl s:.ould pledge the other fifth part. Few 'wishes, tv!.•3 brie likely to be Affected by it, as a compulsory rueasurtc would be in a situation to ask tor The CHANCELLOR. of said, that the money was to be advanced uu sr re sanction of two Magistrates. This, he 6,4,10*, would obviate the objections to the clause in cresittx- Lord MILTON did nut see how he eoula wal.: draw his motion to leaving nut the word • Parisne• He had, besides, an objecttun to the clause retpccuag the power of the Surveyors et the iliglivedys. Mr. LYTTLETON thought, that it the relief was great, it ought to be in the shape of a bonus. was small, in the way it was proposed to be •iittont" stered ; although it might be indrectiml, it might e•:- tail a heavy burthen upon the parties receiving •t. The House then divided, when there arreAr ed•••• Fut the Aukbdnient, I ;—Against Majnrity,& Mr: LYTTLLTON opposed the classes for gm. 1 Fr fight li . . cd ft. Trent! 3f, tl hlllll'. n.iblie d b NI. 1. . ' , red t. t advairi the re Tweed then i e Chart plan I , 1 possialt d. +dmira- her'op. pLin of i 3 dot the him in. e names rat cm be Ike VA, MI. Lit tub. be 'ma- c !night pri.sent leraainm He did Ad been tiliei Ut be tiro- Bill was is.4ge 13 I. Mo- il there ► be a- litJe