Star. — London, England, 1817-02-22 00:00:00

Onspending the Habeas Corpus Act, 'mould, he also ton , idered, be to place the liberties of the c o untry at the mercy of :he Ministers of the Crown. As to the, Poi:A of order, he most say, it was not attended to' by those who had inter' u pted his Noble Friend, while he was in a course of explanation in consequence of having been called to order. The LORD CHANCELLOR world submit it to their Lordships whether it was orderly or rrgulat so to speak of pxsons nut of that House? Carrying the conddetati.in of oroer farther, he would leave to their Lordships, whether it vas consistent with their orders to have a Petition read to them, impugning parts rf a Report which was never communicated out of that House, or VI ID speak of a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, ri which not one syllable was siid ? He ist-is nat.:rally anxious, from duty and inclination, to preserve order, and he earhestiy wish ed to learn from the How whether he was right or wrong in what lie h.ol advanced ? Lord HOLLAND expressed sentiments similar to those which had fallen from Earl Grey. and dis approved ti a,iy Noble Loud htiog called to order while in A course of tA. , l,ination. The Earl Cif LIVERPOOL conceived there eniihl ' not be a m ne disorderly proceeding than that which the House had witnessed, in a Petition being tornight down, referring to the Repot% of a Secret Committee of Oat House, not regularly known out of it, and re. ferfring to a measure which the party had no right to knew whether or or t sOch was intended. The practice nf Parliament was against such proceedings. It was still more unparliamentary that a Noble Lord should assume that as a tact which he had no right to know any thing of, and then, upon that assumption, to throw an imputation on the Government and the country. Neither could any thing regularly be known of the transactions of the other House of Par liament, unless in case of a communication of votes. Individual information in certain cases is also given with a view to personal convenience: but it was a most unjustifiable use of that indulgence, when indi viduals' names were cited for the purpose of casting an odium upon those individuals. In the present ease, no Lord of Parliament had a right to know any thing so far as would warrant him in making personal reflections. Earl GROSVENOR. in explanation, observed. that the observations which fell from him, (Earl G.) be thought, were fully as applicable now as they could he at any other period. If it were irregular to refer to individual Members of the other House, it could not be sai to refer to them as Members of hi s Majesty's Government. With respect to the reference to the Report, it was customary tor the substance - at least of such documents to transpire, and go forth to . - • the xognisarice of the public ; and on occabioes so Important as -the present, the agitation of men'. mirth, and their anxiety to learn, must be unusually great. Me must upon the whole think it a hard case were the present Petition rejected, even before they should enter into a coMiderarion of the subject. He Must again, therefore, press on the consideration of their Lordships the propriety of allowing the Peti tioner to prove his important allegations at the bar.' Nis Lordshipahen moved, that the Petition be mad. The Loab CHANCELLOR POW to Object to the peti tion being received; when the Noble Lord was called to order by the Earl of LAUDEROALR, who observed that the motion was, that the petition should be read, to which there could be no objectioh. The Loan CHANCELLOR thanked the Noble Earl, and admitted that it might be then read. The petition being read by - the Clerk, - The LORD CHANCELLOR rose (or the pur poseof objecting to the Petition's being laid upon the table. It was of th it nature and tendency which induced him to think it ought not to be received.— Referring then to what had been said respecting the impart or substance of documents, which exclusively should appertain to Members of the House, he ob served, that if no other person should call for a rigid execution of their Lordship.' orders in that respect, be would do it. It was not to be endured, in the cifcumstances in which they stood, that papers print ed exclusively for Noble Lords should go forth, so is that a Petitiop could state what were the contents of a most important document, and such a Petition" be presented by a Peer of:that House. He should, ithile s he lived,support the Laws and Constitution of the Country to the utmost of his power, and against practices which may give rise to such proceedings as the present. .His sent irdents should be recorded in a Protest. Earl GREY observed, with respect to what . had fallen from the Noble and Learned Lord, that there were numerous instances in which individuals who found themselves affected and aggrieved by cer tain proceedings in Parliament, had come forward in various ways to endeavour at obtaining redress. It was well known that many of these found their way into public prints. The case of Mr. Horne Tooke, when be took a legal course in an application to the Court of Icing's Bench. was a striking in . stance o' what lie had alluded to. In that before them, the Central Union Society was held to be jos plicattld in a traitorous conspiracy against the laws and constitution of tie country. They should,there. fore, in jtuitice, be allowed an opportunity of wiping off that imputation. It was offered to be proved that they did not meet for the last three years and a half, and their books and papers brought before the House. He was happy however to hear, that his • Mljetty's Chief Ministers seemed to feel it an-Impu : tattoo that the measure referred to was intended by them. Were the present petitioner refused to be heard, he knew not on what principle of justice any other could be heard; or if a aispeasios Bill were passed, would not -the people have • right to be heard against it I , The Earl of HARROWBY deprecated any pro-, eedure which was contrary to She established rule, and orders of Parliament. Wde evidence to be re ' ceived in the case of the prebent petition, by what role could they refuse a similar procedure on the part of every club and affiitated sbeikty in the kingdom/ It was evident to all, the ordit of the House should be respected; and with respect to the present petition tie must submit his opinion, thin it ought not to lie Nan the table. Lord HOLLAND speed that the order of the I louse ahould Ise at all times respected, but he could noc.cenear irith, the idea that no petitAla should be • heard utiota a object before. Parliament, except it . an acknowledged legal publicity. The present ease was one in which he thought they ought to hear the petitioner; for with all his respect for the Com mittee, he must observe, that they proceeded Open, ex-tarte evidence. A love of the Constitution was best manifested in shering it to he just and there were some cases in which' individuals had no way for redress bet in appealing to the justice of Parliament. Earl GROSVENOR observed, that what he then proposed' was for the Petition lying upon the table. The only thing which he thought remained was to consider whether there was any thing in the situation of. the country, or the present aspect of public af fairs, that should induce the Hottse not to entertain the petition ? He thought the present state of the business the preferable time for hearing the petitioner. The Earl of LAUDERDALE thought there was no adequate ground for the House not receiving the petition. Petitions, and even counter petitions, were often received on occasions nearly similar. He thought the case of the Irish Canonical Propositions nearly similar. There numerous petitions were en tertained upon the Report of a Committee, and be fore any legislative measure conk place upon it. The Duke of ATHOL adverted to a part of the petitioner's language, which he thought was suffi cient to authorize its rejection. Lord ERSKINE stated, theft unwilling as he was to give any vexatious opposition to his Majesty's Go vernment, be had no' during the last Session of Par liament attended in his place. Whatever might be his opinion as to the late war, he still oronsiilered his j Majesty's Government entitled to credit for the man- 1 ner in which it was concluded. He thought that last Session before the House could come to the re ductions of a peace establishment (what it must now come to) it should wait for facts. That which he was then willing to afford time to Ministers to pro duce, he that night asked in turn from Ministers, in favour of the people, viz. the facts on which a full and comprehensive decision could alone be founded. Never was any man more surprized than he was, when he Slit learned the nature of the late Commit tee, and the Message on which it was appointed. He was then in a distant pert of the country, and had l i little thought that measures of such importance to the great interests of the nation were so near as those now ascertained to be in contemplation. When the atrocious attempt on the illustrious pet sonage at the head of the Government transpired, there never was a more universal effusion of loyalty than was ilia:trated in every part of the country. With respect to the immediate point before their Lordships, with out discussing the forms of the House, he would merely ask the plain question—if this petition be now rejected, can any petition adverting to the Report of the Committee, be at any future time received ? If the time, however, be the only objection, in 'what stage after the precedent of rejection can they be per mitted ? He had on a former evening presented pe titions from the City of Glasgow and its vicinity, signed by 25,000 individuals, in favour of a Reform in the State of the Representation. He now found from the Report of the Committee of Secrecy, that a charge was made against those petitioners for re form, of no less a nature than involving them in a conspiracy to subvert the laws and institutions of the conatry.. -He begged to read the passage, as it was important in its bearing on those numerous classes of subjects s " Others of these Societies are called Union Clubs, professing the same object of Parliamentary Reform, but under these words understanding Uni versal Suffrage and Annual Parliaments, projects which evidently involve not any qualified or partial change, but a total subversion of the British Consti tution." There was no man more decidedly averse than he was to the doctrine of universal suffrage and annual Parliaments. It was a doctrine contrary to the spirit and practice of the British Constitution, and au he trusted it would continue ever to be. But he must ask, whether persons feeling a different con viction on that subject, had not a right to Petition either House of Parliament ? When _their motives and intentions were aspersed, had they not a justifia ble reason to approach that House for the purpose of redeeming their own characters and informing Par liament of the misrepresentation ? In the case allu ded to that night, namely, that of Mr. Tooke, the proceeding did not originate on a report of the Le gislature, it was grounded on newspaper publication, and the language of the Court was, that it-could not take cognizance, the whole proceedings of Parlia ment being before the public. The case of the pre- sent Petitioner could not be distinguished from one where a a grievance had been committed and injury felt, on which the interposition of that House was prayed. Earl DARNLEY begged their Lordships to pause befere they rejected a Petition respectfully addressed to their consideration. Was any man prepared in the fallibility of human judgment to contend that the Committee might not be imposed upon by false evi dente ? It such a conclusion could not be supported, surely the House could not proceed with too much caution before it shut its doors against an aggrieved individual (Hear, hear,) complaining of misrepresen tation, and expressing his readiness to afford satisfac , ter, evidence of the allegations his Petition contained. Unless the House was an the fullest possession of the positive truth of the facts oa which that Report was founded, they ought not to reject the prayer of the Petitioner. Should it, however, act otherwise, he would confidently assert, it would not do justice to the country; and feeling as he did, that it as the interest of that House to stand well with the country, it would not, in that event, de justice to themselves. Earl FITZWILLIAM,-=-As I had the honour of being a Member of that Committee of Secrecy, whose Report has been presented to this House, I feel SOU CiLOUS to give my opinion on the subject of this Peti tion. 'Co that Report I assented, from the nature of the evidence that was before the Committee. That evidence etas been contradicted by the Petition, b rib in point of tact and time ; and therefore I woual be exceedingly aotry that a Petition containing such alle gations should not be received. At all events, I feel it a duty most seriously.to press u p on t h e considera tion of the House the propriety of adopting the Amendment of my Nobte Friend (Earl Grey).— (Haar, Isar.) The House divided on the Amendment, when the numbers were—. Contents, 18—Not-Contents, 64. Majority against the Amendment, 46. The motion for laying the Petition on the Table was afterwards negatived without a division. When strange' were withdrawn, Lord Houdin) presented to the House of Lords a Petition kom Paisley, signed by seVeral thnntaiid inhAitants, Ina - praying Mr Annual Parliaments and'Universdl Suf 'tinge. Lord Holland declared his unqualified dis. approbaticn of Universal Suffrage, hitt stated, in lof tier to the Petitioners, that the langbage was respect ful to the House, the Petition very numerously sign ed, and the quarter of the Empire from which it came, precisely that which had most reason, bath in theory and practice, to lament the inequality of Representation. SUSPENSION°, THE HABEAS CORPUS ACT. On nut readmission below the Bit (from which we were ex:luded for a considerable time, in conse quence of the more than usual ceremony ckserved in permitting the entrance of strangers) we found Viscount SIDMOUTH on his legs. His LordsLir said, he was prepared to state at length to the House the reasons which induced his Majesty's Minister; to sanction the Bill, which he then field in his hAnd ; but, understanding that it was the general wish of their Lordships, that the debate taiw place on the second reading of the Bill, on Monday nor, he should abstain from making any observations on the present occasion, and should merely read the title of the Bill. It was a A Bdi to enable his Al.j • -ste; 12 "SECURE and DgTAIN in CL:97ODY, tr , cl4 Item/tsar hi; Itfq jett tiould tatitect of hartouriv intention; again.t hie Majesty': Perron and Government." It woulJ be pro per also for him to state, that it it thaul4 be the pl..a sure of the House, he intended, on Monday, to press the Bill through several stages. His Lordship then moved, "That the 13i11 be now read a first time." Lord HOLLAND said, that in expressing his approbation of the candid manner in which the N, ble Secretary had communicated his intended course of proceeding, he wished not to be considered as con veying in the slightest degree any approbation of the Bill which he had proposed for the approval of that House. He trusted that on the discussion the Noble Secretary will redeem his pledge, and will not only state the grounds and reasons for the proposition it self, but the grour.Js and reasons also for the recom mendation of having such a measure, of the first im portance, hurried through the Legislature. —(llear, Isear.)-h would, after the statement of the Noble Secretary, be uncAndid on his (Lord Holland's) part not to ask of him, whether, at the proper time of the discussion, lie will have any objeciirm to state, net only the dates when these various proceedings, as communicated in the Report, took place, but also the dates of the periods at which the intelligence reached his M ijesty's Government ? He could not but expect, that the House would feel this informa tion most material when it was called upon to sos pend the exercise of that Law, so long and s justly considered the brightest ornament of the British Con ', stitntion—that Law which a high political Autisority had defined as the peculiar, if not the only distinction between our Free Government, and the Arbitrary States of the Continent. Indeed, he must b-licve, that when Ministers felt themselves bound to reccm mend the suspension of that best guarantee of the Nation's freedom, they must be at the same time prepared to prove, that after their knowledge of the proceedings on which they found its necessity, they have lost no time its bringing it before Parliament. The Bill was then read a first time, and second reading fixed for Monday.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The House being occupied is balloting for an Election Com mkt,* tin the Rochester Petition, the gallery was not open till bait-past four. Mr. H. DAVIS presented a Petition from the Managers of the , Bristol Saving Dank, against certain clauses of the Savings' Bank NlL—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. DICKENSON presented a Petition from the Clothiers and Clotb-workers of Suffolk, praying that the use of machinery might be restrained. Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. CALVERT presented a Petition from an individual of the name of James Helder, of Hotsleydown, complaining of a case of great hardship. The Petitioner he stated te have been proprietor of a small vessel engaged .in the trade from Rotter dam to London, called the George, which bad been boarded by the Hawke revenue cutter, and detained on a charge of contra band goods having been found in her. The Master and the crew had beeo impressed and sent to America. The proprietor of the ship which had been detained, had petitioned the freasury on the outlet!, but bad not been attended to, because he was unable to bring evidence to prove that the ship had been unjustly de• talned, which he had only been prevented from doing by she Master and crew having been impressed and sent to a distant station. 'lle Petition was read, and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. 11. ADDINGTON presented certain Papers relative to the Poor Laws.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. BKOUGHAM inquired if the Papers relative to Fines and Forte*s in the Customs were ready to be laid - before the House ? He was answered from the Ministerial side. that they had been three days on the table. He then moved that they should be printed.— FM motion was agreed to. A Return of the Dnties paid in the three year. ending on the i.e of February, It 17, oa Carolina Rice, and uo Rice how India, was ordered to be laid berme the House. ELECTION COSINITTINts The Report of the Committee which had gene forth on the Rochester Petition was brought up. The name. of the Members de whom the choice of the Howe had fallen, were as follows: Mr. T. Leigh Sir C. Hudson Mr. E. Law Sir M Colthurst Mr. C. Wyatt Mr. J. Rolland Mr. 0. A. Robinson Mr. T. 'Firrell Mr. B. L. Leicester Mr. 1. A. Wright Mr. W. Rasteleigh Mr. C. Long Mr. R. Williams I Mr. J. 11I•I)omald , Sir T. Darin The Members of the Committee were called to the table and sworn. Sir R. KNATCHBULL rose to give sake that on Monday sermlght he would move for leave to bring in a Bill waiter and amend the Acts of the 39th and 40th of the King, catending the Law passed in the 17th year of the present Fele), which related to Rogues and Vagabonds. . Ti. SPEAKEIA inquired in what respect the Honourable Member yrnposed to alter the law to vibigh he had reterred ? It was proper to tate so much, but not do more, on giving notice. Sir E. KNA ItHAULL proposed to bring in a Bill to take away part of it, and to continue other parts of it In force. Abuse AND winnow DuTlCtt ON slioPS, ace. Sir JAMES SHAW wished to call the attention of his Majesty's Ministers to a Petition which he held in his hand from certain Merchants, Traders, and Shop keepers, in the City of London. The Petitioners complained of having- been recently called upon to pay the Inhabited House and Window Duties on Tenements, which had not been so assessed Info: e. In the last Session of Parliament, they had applied for relief, but had not pressed the application, in consequence of their having understood a promise to have been given by the Chancellor of the Exchequor that their case should be attended to. At the cl ise of the Session, however, these unlawful taxes (for unlawful he would call them), had been rigorously levied. The Barons of the Exchequer it: Scotland had declared unanimously, that in that country it, was illegal to levy the taxes in question on tene ments used only as shops, counting-houses, &c. He doubted not Ministers would'affora the country some relief, am] had only further to remark, that the t mr chosen by the Tax Officers for imposing these iiew burdens, was nne at which, from t'te markets o' the Coutinert he;ng glutted, the ware' :tithes of the t'eti tiOners were tuil of gnodr, and ihey were cottop:.ie.l from the stagnation of trade In pay the taxes an . maintain their families, tint out t-t their prt.,fitt, bu t by dioninis' , ing their capital. The P.tqion wAs n read It set f rth m That the P..t.tioners lat.dy "ten charged with the hatked house (hay, and the defy n w tolows, ,or tenenteht, solely twed or occupied by them either hs sit: ps a unting.l l ,., l warehotites, Or tuatudarunes, and whlc:i eau in tin te ct wha ever be considered as dwelling-houses. ; hat the to:einem. 0 assessed to the said duties hive hccn in the occupation in the h... tiouers for e.ritius ptriodsef from bee to r:ver. teeti years, without having been betor,• etarged wish the dis.e,,,, d duties, or any of thern, and wit :out haitog been uses! as sme . ling-houses during :how rcr.ods, and that mazy of them never have be n Lauri into the outipc.abot the Pend eters, it not been sui pmmd t::at they ',axe cicatly eaempt •ton. ties ci.argeable tin inbahited. houses. .1 hu elf appeal to the Cont. nii,siotkr. f irA.isesoed I the Peti:ionwi I.ave inn tom a: to olyaits either redress or any aathlieto.) laiorwation AS to't ground on which they h ore beer; it. charged. 'l . lta: ;he Peteto. lien have obsere:d nbt only that Ole aid detits hive b en *eiy part;a!ly levied in England, but that t•:e. Right tiol.ouroble e barons of the Exchequer in Scotland have unateruttusly decided, that no shop, eountisiklinuse, warehouse, or n:tht::::. vry, lay t 4 those of the Petitioners, is chargeable w.th the said I:I Via• pin of his Majesty's ddatittions. I hit a I'e:its..7ido/Om : 0 the present would have been presetud to :his lion.rereuiell .1 sz gluing the list Sessltn of Parnoceut, had not an ObSCIVA SO I trlont the Right Honourable the Cita/lunar if the Eachtques icd Petitienei, to expect redress liciere Os chess. 1 tat as sacs, however, as the :session was en led, the Conawssiso.w s pea ceedcd to enforce the assa.ament, aa.ln man/ 11.0:3144 leric4 late, by &sire's. 't hat the Pot VO:icrs do not 1141 Oo +Of of Mt Majesty's subjects in seediness to bit whiten,' asituum ul ciao don the nece,sities of the State tray hey upon their, r , ina liopy their fellow subjectsi•hut they du trust and huts:, that i ley in. I not liencefo: tit be tunikoled to pay or buotoit tit ct.t.rs and im posts which went to be chArged and infl.c test Lim; itunt with evident partiality, and apparently without justice. the Pomo. tiers therefore prey the lsowe li. adopt such measures f...r %hilt relief as to the tionutiralde Holm; may seem lit." The CLIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said, the case was alrekil Cohside:Attuli, an.l that care would be taken to guard again.t a rcci.:- rence of the evil, and to do justice to a._ ll Parkes. The Petition was then ordeied to lie on the table. Mr. SHAW (cf Dardin) presented several peti tions, one of which was irons the Nlayor, Sheriffs, and Common Council of Dublin, against tbetatenticrs of the right of suffrage. Ordered to lie ol the table. .LICENCING ON PUBLIC 110U4LS. Sir S. ROM ILLY presented a rt tttion, signedby a great nus.ber of persons resid,ng in or neat White Heise Lane, in the district of the Toter H .octet,;, complaining of the conduct of tlw MAeistrates with respect to ti e granting public-house iicer,s a. All he should do at pre,ent, would be to mere that Viis petition shf.uld lie on the table, but it the Gtittlentan who mnvA for the appointment ef the Police Cem mitre last year should bring forward e motion for reviving that Committee, and if this should be ac. ceded to by th: Horse, he sh:'uld then mov, that 'he petition be referred to it.' The present o,ttion w a s signed by 230 rt!rfintis living in or neer W to Horse Lure. 'Dory complained that- the Magistrates had refused to k:OPSe a -house which had heel' belt for public-howe, and which was eiated to be much wanted in that situation. The boost in q iestion was one of a very superior description, and one tint likely to be resorted to by low company. A formal Ap plication had been ntade.for a license. but ;his Lad been refused, and in consequence the inhabitonii were put to the inconvenience of fetching Citer herr from houses at a very considerable distance. While their wishes were thus opposed by the Magistrates, licenses had been granted and renewed to many houses in the disttict, against which the most serious comelaints had been made. It was not easy to reconcile their refusal of a license to the partial. 'gar house in XVliite Horse Lane for which it had been solicited, while such extroardinary facilities for obtaining licenses had been afforded in other places. He however would not enlarge on this subject, 's the Magistrates complained they had not yet haJ proper opportunity for entering upon their vindication, ad it was impossible now to go into the whole of t:4 case. The question which it involved, however, el peered to him of moment, net as it affected the i:r! • viduals presenting this petition, but as a part ei cost Police system. In this view, to him the subject peared to be one of very great importanc'. ,conduct of the Magistrates must have a great cffest on the morals of the lower classes, and it was there. fore necessary to the well being of society Chi the decision should be such as could in be called is question. But in the present cafe, where was their consistency f In the neighbourhoed of Whi:e Hers: Lane, there was tle.i.i.lsirc nrmse within half a mi:e of that for which a license bad been demanded, r 1 the application had been dismissed, though in sore parts of the same district licenses continued to tt granted and renewed, till the number br-carne peat that one house in every twelve was a publis house. In Gravel-lane every eigh h how? Wai public house, and in one put of Norton Fllgate, •77 its immediate vicinity, it was calculated thet Ortre was one to every seventy-three persons of tlt't p..p . • lour neighbourhood. These too were Mouses d worst description, which were resnrsei to by 1ct...e. , 1 thieves, and prostitutes of the lost et order. But r'':• withstanding these thine's wete known, Cie M. z• trews did out object to continue their licens• c. gr. Gif f ord, who was at the head of the Police in the: disttict, had himself borne testimony to the g!.41 misconduct of the Magistrates, which was sne , :, a these matters, that he had given up all hopes of g any good by complaining of disnreerly see, ani usually kept away on tic licensing day, in the viction that no compiaints made against them w , u d be attended to. Mr. Alnkland, another of the !lagte trates, had also stated the course it ;Issued ;n twit cites to be productive of incalculable mist.liia. He ilict read part of Mr. Gifford's evidence, which set firth the inutility of complaining of those receptacles thieves and prostitutes scud flash-houses, to tie: Magistrates. ;3 nue of these Magistrates, it sioiwil seem, were brewers and preprieors of pl,blic-houtte or had relations that were st.cli, and were thus into , ested in granting licenses to these honors. AnloFF those who granted them, there was one rrrson * l4 had twelv.: public-houses t.i its own, and will rg" ceived the rents of ten others, and thus had ac 10 • terert in the l i c ens i ng o f tvrenty.two homes In ! i • di.itict. Mr. Gifford had stated that six convict, oh had been given against one house, yet, notwithstrid' ling these, though its character remained the Si ne ' its license had been renewed. It was matter of!' tonishmeat, t:tat with all the detects in cur Polier s' IC. he tl •st se I ad a as !ly 1. ad ti itt te er ile fe sy Al ed in Is ) he St , er 4 T gi • w .1 VI 71 Se :: be doe.. 11 11 is be 1.7 in :e. al tt .c • Cc g 1.1 a•, +F P g tI tl • L Ti ti . 1 tt rt • I