Star. — London, England, 1823-06-20 00:00:00

ri - c i n beneficent acts to Ireland .as the period since Ommence ment of his late Majesty's reign. They c d b e en told that these were bet acts of justice; and was di s posed as fully as the Noble Lord to admit be at the y were so. But must there not be circum attached to those acts wh i ch deserved tha t ra ges Id e lookd with more favourable het 'I ) " Fo ? r inbstance,e in the upon grants of public money :b i d been made, England did more for Ireland than d i e would have done for herself —(Hear,hear).— ;,1 es ect to the Government of the Noble Th e ri, p Lord, at present Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, he was ;II;-a that it should be tried by the purpose which --ad b ee n held out to be the object of his policy. At t same time no one would say that Ireland was to De aired by a piece of magic, and that by a stroke r; a , an d disturbance was to be for ever banished. ma n would ever lAO out such prospects with the s ystem of laws ever framed. It must be years -fore the fruitsof Marquis Welle,ley's improved ad :.;ini,tration could be seen. The measures which had . 03 0 been held out as in contemplation of the Noble lord were four, and these we: e destined to go a great nay to wards those evils corrigible by law. But the ini;fortune of . Ireland was, that a great part of her uere not corrigible by law. The measures, roils vever, were, a new system of police, which, if eared and executed, must ultimately obviate many rconveniencies, and which involved another measure ;.; the regu'ation o f the NlagiAracy. This was a . ; .,st important object, for it went to eradicate thcke in the lower Cow ts having the administra i nf law between rich arid pour. The next were T it hes, and a new system of Distillery Laws. 7;•5e were the four amendments which the Govern r e.ltof Ireland held out. The new police system had te:;lalleaLty ereablislied in many coumies, and pro ehed great ad v intages, if generally carried into effect. 71 amendment in the Magistracy had been begua great effect, and gave considerable satisfaction, L td the Irish Government did all they could to ma ter teir plans. L t st year, in all the discussions, they t.ll been told that the state of the tithes and the dis ,i!erf I evs were the great grievances of Ireland. But rii year they were taunted with bringing forward e ? erfect measures with reference to the tithes.—* IVidt respect to the tithes, he desired to know wile eera voluntary or compulst.‘ry commutation was de led? He eished for the former, but considered that rery principle of justice would be violated by the ;ter. He was persuaded and satisfied that the thing e ight be fairly and amicably arranged, for he was ert the Clergy of Ireland we; e willing fairly to Stet the tithe-payers on this question. lie wished it n be remernbel-ed that every man who purchased an ante in Ireland, purchased but nine-tenths of that! estate, and the remaining tenth did not belong to but. He eulogised the moderation of the Irish Clergy, 1;1 were the most lenient exactors of rent. In con elsion, he rnairtained that the Government had made l ed the pledges it lied given. With respect to the pivileges enjoyed de fac!o by the Catholics in Ireland, acgged to state that it formed part of his Ma ' •y's instructions to every Lord Lieutenant to se to the Roman Catholics the full enjoyment of all .privilee,es to which they were entitled. This had the charge to every Secretary for Ireland, and had ins been most anxiously looked to by Ministers. *tics were admitted into many of those bodies ha which they were formerly excluded. They now armed part of the Revenue Boards, and in one of fern a Catholic Gentleman had been chosen Deputy o:tie:et:l. It had been stated, that out of 2540 of fer, ite,, which Catholics were eligible by law to hold , bit 106 were actually held by Roman Catholics. Tr disparity was certainly great, but then those who tilted of the Catholics of Ireland amounting to 6,!,°0,000 out of a population of 7,500,000, ought tobear in mind, that if this calculation were at all meet, forty-nine fiftieths of the property of Ireland vas in the hands of the Protestants. When this was remembered, and wheti it was considered that the Catholics, holding but one fiftieth part of the pro perty of the country, must of necessity be unfitted, by wanting education, for many of the offices which the law allowed them to hold, the disparity would art be so wonderful as it might at first seem. In some tithe counties of Ireland,Catholics were chosen to serve asGrand Jurors ; when, if the same individuals were hotestants, they would not be chosen. This arose tram there being a wish to place some Catholics in that situation, and there being but few to choose from, those were preferred, for being Catholics, who would aaotherwise have been selected on such an occasion. Asto the charge that the law was not equally ad- 1 ministered, he deified the charge, and maintained that as far as education and other circumstances toad permit, no difference was made between Ca tholics and Protestants. In most countries where dis twbances occurred, the efforts of the disaffected were directed against the Government, or the institutions of the country. He denied the insurrectionary at tempts and the combinations in Ireland appeared to have such objects in view. In the midst of the dis turbances which occurred last year at Limerick, it had been asserted, that if the King could have ap peared there, he would have been received with every possible demonstration of loyalty. The present com binations were against property, whether possessed by Protestants or by Roman Catholics. The Catholic suffered as much as the Protestant. The instances were not so many, because, as he had already stated, the Catholic Proprietors were few ; but, in propor lina to their numbers, they had suffered as much ; and a more determined spirit of hostility had been manifested towards the wealthy Catholic than to 'cards the Protestant. They objected as much to the dues claimed by the Ministers of their own Church, as to those demanded for the Protestant establishment, aad the general service of the State. The insurrection which broke out in Connaught while the Duke of Sealed was inireland, was produced by discontent on account of the dues claimed by Catholic Priests. A similar spirit now prevailed. He could not avoid attributing much of the evil which was the subject of complaint to the extent to which absenteeship was Carried in Ireland. It was his opinion that Ireland, though sonic evils were complained of as springing flout tire Uaion, derived more benefit than she sus tained injury from that measure. Is was so with Scotland, and he keew of no reason why it should tact be the same with Ireland. What he wished to do was to infuse into Ireland English notions and English feelings, so as to create in the different classes, the same regard' for the well-being of each other Itkieh existed in this country. lie vindicated the. principle of the English Poor taws and without de mending their imm e di ate introdu ction into Ireland, he thought they ought not to be hastily dismissed from consideration. He shewed that they connected rich a w n h d i c ro v r a , s a n n o d w i h n e t r r o e d m a c o e r d e a t o be b t e t e d r e s s i y r s e t d e mth than n f in rce, po Ire land. He opposed the 'notion, because he considered it to contain an untrue description of Ireland. If any particular grievance was p ointed out as calling for enquiry, he should be read y to agree to a motion for that purpose, but the proposition before the House was entirely one of generalities, and by its generality it defeated its own object, and he therefore telt called on to vote against the Noble Duke's motion. The Bishop of KILDARE vindicated the parochial incumbents of Ireland from the aspersions which had been thrown out against them. He denied that they had been required by law to open schools at their own expense, but declared them to have greatly exerted themselves to promote education in that country, and to improve the condition of the people. The Marquis of LANSDOWN explained. The Earl of CA RNARVON thought if the Noble Lord were sincere in wishing to infuse English feel ings into Ireland, that no time ought to be lost in en tering upon that enquiry which was now called for. The Noble Earl wished to infuse this spirit into Ire land by promoting union between the parochial au thorities and the people, and he had spoken of the advantages which Scotland enjoyed from such a state of things, but lie forgot that Scotland had a Church of her own in accordance a hit the feelings of the people, which had cot been subjected to our Episcopal Go ye: nment. It was in a time of profound peace that their Lordships ought to endeavour to make those improvements in the condition of the people, which were alike essential to the present prosperity and fu ture safety of. the nation. It would be difficult by any act of conciliation at once to recover the lost af fections of the people of Ireland; but, it that House manifested a disposition to do them justice, and to efface the recollection of the past, much might yet be achieved. He should, therefore, support the motion of the Noble Duke, as he hoped a majority of their Lordships would, for it was his opinion that such a decision would do more towards tranquillity than all the expedients hitherto recommended. The people of Ireland were oppressed and rendered desperate, and he verily believed that such was the state of the country, that if 20,000 men were landed there, the existing Government would be overthrown. Their Lordships then divided, when the numbers were— Contents - 43 Proxies - - - - 16— 59 Non Contents - - 66 Proxies - - 39-105 Majority - - The House adjourned at a Quarter before Two this Morning. HOUSE OF COMMONS. A new Writ was moved and ordered for the town of Hert ford to elect a Representative to serve in Parliament in the room of Lord CRANIORNE, now Marquis of Sstisst:ny, Mr. BIRCH presented a Petition from the Manufacturers of the Town and County of Nottingham against the Bill for repeal ing the Acts for punishing combinations amongst workmen. Mr. A BERC ROM BY presented a Petition from 9720 inha bitants of Middlesex, praying that the jurisdiction of the County Court of NI icidl..set should be extended from the enforcement of debts not exc.eding 40s. to the amount of XlO, as a great conve nience to trade, and a mode of diminishing the excessive expenses of law proceedings when instituted to enforce small debts. Mr. BENETT, of Wilts, presented a Petition signed by Ro bert Gourlay, and other paupers, in the pariah of Wylie, in the county of Wilts, against certain provisions in the Bill now pend e in. , for amending the Poor Laws; the particulars against which the Petitioners more especially prayed, were those which pro vided that paupers should be bodged, and be obliged to serve In the militia. Mr. WILMOT HORTON, in answer to a question from Mr. Marryatt, said, there was at present a Commission of Inquiry in the West Indies, who were to proceed to Trinidad, and to inquire how far the provisions of British law could be extended to that Settlement. Mr. 11 ERRIES, in moving the third reading of the Assessed Taxes Bill, observed, in answer to a question from Mr. Hub house, that it had never been the intention of the Chancellor of the E xchequer to exempt front duty windows on the ground floors of houses, except such as were actually shop windows, whe ther in courts or passages.—Bill read a third time and passed. The Barilla Duties Bill went through a Committee.—Report to-morrow. The Poor's Settlement Bill was read a second time, and or dered to be committed on Monday next. Mr. BENNET presented a Petition from Heabam, against the continuance of Slavery in our West India Islands.—Read and laid on the table.—The Honolarable Gentleman also pre sented a Petition from the Owners and Occupiers of Land in the County of Northumberland, relative to the Duties on Spi rits. They prayed the House to remove the restrictions on the distillation of British Spirits of the first and finest qualities.—Or dered to be printed. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. Nlr. JAMES presented a Petition from 3,107 of the inhabitants of Newcastle, complaining that they were altogether unrepresented in Parliament. He nished the Hon. Member for Bramber was in his place, that he might induce him to advocate the cause of the white slaves in this country, who he feared had feweL advocates in that House than the black slaves in tbrWest Indies. He might be answered that there was no parallel between the cases of the slaves in the West Indies and those whose situation in this pre tended free - country he was now deploring. But was the driver with his whip, in the West Indies, a degree worse than the exciseman at home, whose goading lash was constantly irritating the poor people? This persecutor was seen at one time snatching from them the soap.which was to cleanse away the foulness pro duced by their incessant toil—seizing the grain of salt that was to savour their scanty meal, or depriv ing them of that light which perhaps it would be lenity not to admit, as it could only discover the ex tent of their wretchedness. Let him not, then, be ac cused of making a false comparison between the slaves of the West Indies and the slaves of a country which boasted so touch of its freedom and prosperity. Let it not be said that he was exaggerating the case of the one, or making light of the miseries of the other. Could the slaves of the West Indies step into the situation of the enslaved peasantry of Great Bri tain to-morrow, "by Heaven, said Mr. James, " I believe the exchange would not be in their favour" —(A laugh). The Hon. Secretary for the Admiralty might laugh, but let the Hon. Gentleman look to the state of Ireland. In what quarter of the world were slaves to be found more cruelly oppressed,rnore deeply degraded than the people of that kingdom—a king-1 dem which abounded so much in the elements ofl prosperity? Well might he apply to that unhappy country the lines of the Poet— ,. Ste how kind Heaven adorns that 'fertile land, • And scatters plenty with a wasteful hand, But what avails her unesbausted stores. • • • • While proud opprensiouanidst her-valleys reign% • And lawless grants wither all her plains?" The Petitioneri cumplainedof the errormons weight. of taxes they were compelled to bear, the iniquitous laws by which they were ground to support an over grove .system of:corruption, and an alarmingly nu merous army to keep down those who supported them. They suggested as remedies to these evils, the revision of the laws alluded to; a radical reform in the representation, annual instead of• septennial Parliaments, and vote by ballot. Ile then moved, that the Petition be brought up. Sir ISAAC COFFIN believed the Member who last addressed the House, and his Petitioners,laboured under positive mental derangement, or else they never would have concocted such extraordinary fallacies together in a speech or a Petition— (Lourl laughing). He had been himself all over the world, not even ex cepting that paradise of liberty, America : and he had never seen so many contented looking faces or fat persons anywhere a 4 in this miserable and unhappy ' country. If he could believe but ,he half of what had been just told them, .he should feel that he had nothing kit to relieve him from this load of life but to drown himself in the river, which was near enough for the purpose, or hang himself outright (Laughing). Here Mr. JAMES brought up the Petition to the table, and, on leaving it, drew it out at full length, which almost extended to the bar of the Eloise. A burst of laughter followed. The SPEAKER, however, requested the Hon. Member would be pleased to bring it up. He then collected its folds, and pre sented it to the Clerk, who read it at length, not with out creating a laugh at frequent intervals. Mr. JAMES said, that he had only to observe in reply to the Hon. Knight (Sir 1. Coffin), that those contented and fat people he had seen here must have been those living on the taxes. He moved that the Petition should lie on the table. PETITION FROM MR. BUTT. Mr. HOBIIOUSE presented a Petition from Mr. Butt, complaining of hardships experienced in con sequence of his action against Sir Nathaniel Conant for false imprisonment. It stated that Sir N. Conant was defended by the Treasury, and that the Petitioner was confined 26 months and 13 days for a debt he offered to pay. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL denied both these statements, and vindicated the conduct of the Trea sury, which had been suck towards Mr. Butt as to obtain his thanks. Mr. DENMAN considered the case one of great hardsbtp. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL contended there was nothing oppressive or irregular in the proceedings. Mr. HOBHOUSE said, the opinion of a Law Of ficer of the Crown, in a case where the liberty of the subject was concerned, he held to be not worth that—(Here Me Hon. Gentleman snapped his fingers) —and never had been worth that—(Repeating the action). —The Petition was ordered to be printed. IRELAND. Mr. BROUGHAM said, on Wednesday he shouli present the Roman Catholic Petition against abuses in legal proceedings in Ireland; and move on Thurs- day that it be referred to a Committee. Mr. HUME said, that as the Petition to which the Honourable and Learned Gentleman referred was one of vast importance, he would willingly defer until the Ist of July his motion which stood for Thursday. MIDDLESEX COUNTY COURT. Mr. LENNARD moved, that a Committee be ap- I poitated to inquire into certain Returns presented to this House on the 24th of January, for the County Court of Middlesex ; and to consider whether the fees received might not be diminished, and •whether the Clerk of the County should not sit more often in the County Court. Mr. CURWEN opposed the appointment of a Committee. Mr. BENNET thought that an investigation was necessary.—The House divided, when there were, For the Motion - le Against it 44 -26 Majority PROMOTIONS IN THE NAVY. Mr. HUME, addressing the House on the subject of which he had given notice, said, he thought the con duct of the Lords of the Admiralty, since the peace, was calculated to produce discontent in the Navy, by promoting Officers not known in the service over the heads of others greatly their superiors and of longer experience, a practice than which nothing could be more galling to Officers, Naval or Military. lie had much conversation lately with experienced Officers of the Navy, ou whose information he felt warranted in saying that the system lately pursued bid fair to de. stroy the Navy. The Committee of Finance, in 1816, had looked forward with much confidence to a great reduction under that head of expense. In the year 1793, the number of Officers, from Admirals to Lieutenants, was 2063. In 1816, the total number was 5,568. The Finance Committee had looked for ward to a reduction of five per cent. by which, in seven years, a reduction of one-third would have been ef fected. But that expectation had been far from realised, as 965 promotions had taken place. In th,e space of seven years 513 persons had been appointed Mid shipmen ; 222 Lieutenants had been appointed Com manders, and 125 Commanders to be Post Captains. That was a much greater number than could have been promoted by the casualties of the service. In the Navy the patronage was quite unlimited, and for 300 ships, 30Q0 Captains might be appointed. In the Army the case could not be the same. Making every allowance the number of Captains should not be above 244, while the actual number was 829. The number of Commanders was 667, while 143 were all that were employed. In the year 1816, the expense of the Navy was £1,137,000, and in 1823, that sum had only been reduced to £1,079,000. The annual expense caused by the new promotions was £77,272. Many had received two steps of promotion in time of peace, and been put over the heads of some thousands of older Officers. The Hon. Gentleman here mentioned the names of several Officers who had been so pro moted. He observed that the present was no party question, and he apprehended as much opposition from his own as from the opposite side of the House. He expressed his sense of the readiness with which the Lords of the Admiralty had acceded to all his de mands for documents, and for the facilities they at forded him in the enquiry. The Hon. Gentleman next referred to tht expense of Half-nay and Pensions, which in 1816 amounted to £1,137,000, in 18'23 to £1,079,000; being only a decrease of £58,000 in seven years. The promotions in that interval had added to the expense of the country between two and £300,000. la order to set the matter in the strongest point of view, he has selected from chore promoVonl from the lists, the names of some Captains, Coma. • manders, ißmiLlithrtessaars.-Ileibigfaseat -Gam& bier had been- first put-cwar.thi-isaadlrof-3046.1;*;kt. . tenants, and subsequently of 745 Commanders: First Lieutenant had been his senior in that rank up wards of five yea's. Lord F. Thynne had only served two and a bal . (' years, and was now a Post Captain. The two Lieutenants of the Honourable Captain - Spencer had held that rank, when their pi esent Captain was a boys Arthur Nepean had been put over the heads of 3,508 Lieutenants, and 749 Commanders. 1-1 - is first Lieutenant had held that rank from Its'oB, • while his present Captain was a boy at school. Hai the old rule of seniority been preserved, there would have been the less to object to. At the Coronation, the Admiralty had signified that such was to be the rule. But this seniority had net been that of war but of peace. Of 57, who had been made Commanders at the Coronation, five had been employed oa survey, and of these, one alone was an old Officer. OF the remaining 52. six only were old Officers; while the others had only entered the Navy since 1311.-1.11 one ship there were 10 Midshipmen, who had served 14. years. Some of those had highly distinguished them selves in the service of their country. Three Midship men had been promoted for at:ending the King to Scotland; one of whom, however, had not so attended. There were ninety-eight Isieetenants, the youngest of whom had served ten years ; those men had great cause of complaint that they had not been promoted. Many had been passed over at the Coronation, had been wounded in the service. In the carps of Ma -1 tines, consisting of nearly 8,000 men, three had been only thirty-seven promotions in the course of seven years, and the reason was, that the cot ps of Marines had no Parliamentar y interest. In the case of Pursers the Board of Admiralty came to a resolution that no more Pursers should be appointed than there were ships, in consequence of which the number had been reduced by '203. He saw no reason why a similar course should not be taken in the Navy. The Ho nourable Member then moved certain Resolutions affirmative of these facts. The last was for a humble Address to his Majesty, for an inquiry into the man ner in which the Board of Admiralty had made use of their patronage since 1915. Sir G. COCKBURN contended that it was most desirable for the good of the service to have the sons of Noblemen and distinguished individuals in the Navy ; they gave it respectability, represented it in that House, and added to its character in sacisty ;' and it was not to be expected that they should un dergo all the hardships of inlerioe service, which was endured by those who served in the profession fur their bread—(!lour, hear). He was sure that those who did so were satisfied with the rewards bestowed by the existing regulations—(Hear, hear). He could not be expected to follow the Hon. Meaffier, at the moment, through all the cases he had stated, but that of Lord H. F. Thynne he happened by chance to be acquainted with. The atatile of that Officer stood at the bottom el a list of seven, who were promo ted upon a particular occasion, as being the seven • oldest Commanders upon the diffeiert stations.— With regard to the service of that Officer, it well known that the King's son must go through six years of active service before he could be made; and that, he thought, entitled an Officer to an appointment, who had given up the comforts of affluence and rank, if it could be made with justice and propriety. But . • this Officer had also served in the Mediterranean, and afterwards in the Active, with such credit to himself; that Lord William Gordon came to the Admiralty and reported to him the ineritotious conduct of this young Officer as being entitled to reward ; and he was proud to say that he had it—(Cheers)—and this was what the Hon. Member called never having set foot on board, excepting a few years service II) a - guatd-ship. *Mete was afterwards a ten-gun brig ordered to go out to Sauth America, and there was no one to command her, when this young Officer vo lunteered to do so. The lion. Member complained that he should have bees promoted to a ship which was not built. But the Admiralty know that it would be built when he arrived tt Madras, and by that arrangement they saved an appointment. With regard to jenior Officers passing user the heads of their sen iors, it so happened that his Juniol - Lieutenant had been placed over the head of this young Nobleman, who sex ved under him without a woad of complaint—(Near).— • The Honourable Member had stated that influence in that House was a ground of advancea.ent in the ser- • vice. Now, upon looking at the list of the seven Commanders wlse were promoted, it would Ise seen that the one immediately above Lord 11.Thynne, was the Hon. F. Spencer, who belonged to an opposition family —(1 /ear). lu the Coronation promotions, all were selected from Midshipmen who had passed be fore 1819. The name of Hope had been alluded ; but no one of the promotions of that name had taken place in consequence of the influence of Admix:ll Dope. The promotion as to the name of Coffin had ' taken place oil the tecommendation of an old Officer. No Officer was :showed to be invalided without me. dical examination at the Admiralty ; and if any Cap. jtain improperly recommended an Officer to be inva lided, he was liable to be cashiered. Captain Gain- bier, who was also alluded to, had died three days after he had been invalided. With regard to the Mariner, they were regulated by the Hon. Member's _ f avow ite maxim, and advanced by seniority. On the whole, I I be confidently declared that the Admiralty had dose their duty, and thatthe majority of the promotions were the result of actual and meritorious services. He should move a direct negative on the main Resaa lution; and the previous question on the others, w bids related to mere matters of fact. . Admiral S.r JOHN BERESFOItD said, it was within his own knowledge that many promotions had taken place in favour of those opposed to Ministers. Admiral COFFIN said, that so far from the pos. motions being too qui.so he had known midshipmea who had served 1.8 years without being promoted. men were kept unpromoted until they had arrived at his time of life, they would be good tor nothing. lie himself, if he were now sent to tea, should tail about like an old thtee-legged stool—(A laugh). Mr. F. PALMLit spoke in favour of the motions Captain GORDON said, that many Midshipu en had served double the time prescribed by the rules of the service without being promoted, and were hot al. lowed half pay. Mr. BEN N ET thought that length of service should be the principal circumstance to regulate promotioas : Mr. Secretary CANNING taid,. that 4e belie.ved 3 ~_ .. }