Star. — London, England, 1823-05-23 00:00:00

know what they were sending up stairs. He there fore thought that the Standing Order was perfectly impracticable. 'the Honourable Member for York shire had triumphantly told them on a preceding craning, that a Bill which he had introduced had been referred to a Select Committee. But that Bill hid only affected the interest of particular parties; sad therefore a Select Committee was the best place in which it could be tried: He certainly did not pre tend to be a more critical judge of words than other Gentlemen; but he would say, that the Order was not applicable to the present case, and therefore he thought that it would be better to refer it to a Com mittee to determine what was its true meaning, and to report whether it should be continued. The Right Honourable Gentleman then moved, " that the Stand ing Order be referred to a Committee to report on its intention and meaning; and also to report whether it should remain a Standing Order of the House or not." Mr. S. WORTLEY said, that the Standing Order had been *introduced for the purpose s now used, via. to prevent particular measures from being passed re lative to trade,' without time being given to those in terested to consider the measure. He begged to state,' that there was a Bill on-the table which was a parti cular illustration of the beoefit of this Order. He alluded $0 the Bill For taking away the stamping of Linen, on which a very great difference of opinion prevailed. Now bethought these people had a right to be heard on the subject. -The Right Honourable' Gentleman might say, why did they not come to the Board of Trade? Why, because other parties had been there befOre them, and the Right Honourable Gentleman had made up his mind.. The question was on a complete matter of fact. It was this—Was the stamping of linen of service or not? There were persons of both Opinions : both deserved to be heard; and, therefore, the Standing Order was of great ser vice as applicable to that case. Mr. D. BROWNE thought, that the Standing Order was applicable to cases like -that which had given rise to the discussion. With respect to the stamping of linen, he had never heard any other opi nion, than that the taking off the stamp would be fatal to the linen trade. He thtrefore agreed with the Honourable Member for Yorkshire, m thinking that the Order ought not to be repealed at all. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that any one who listened to the arguments brought against the measure now proposed, would suppose that they were °Sewn-nibs tome regulation Which had been passed cenntries ago. But the fact was,l that the Order had originated from the same wisdom' that now surrounded them. For his own part, he would say, that he never would have consented to the Standing Order, if he had contemplated such construction as that now put upon it. Gentlemen had often blamed Government for, not taking into their hands the removal of restraints on trade; and now, when they availed themselves of the only means' they had of doing so, when they acted upon princi ples which all recognized, they were met by objets.. tions a hich completely went against the He hoped the House would support Government in their attempt to act upon a sound principle. Sir R. FERGUSON rase to observe, that the va riety of`opinion on the stamping of linen was be- j tween the manufacturer and die stampofficer, who would lose their phttek. • • Mr. S. WORTLEY-explained. Mr. C ALCR A Fr wished to say a word Or two - on the real question, which appeared to have been for gotten by the Gentleman near him. ' No one on that side of the House wished to throw obstacles in the way of the Right'HonourableGentleman, but they said there was a Standing Order olie . House which obliged him to refer a. Milan a Select Committee be- Pus it *as brought into the House. And this the HonOurableiGentleman called an impediment; but it was no more im impediment thin the second or thirtreading of Bill. The Standing Order had been referred to a Select Committee, df which the Right Honourable Gentleman had been one; and the reason of its being passed had been, that there had been a shameful tampering with a branch of tradein which a great part of the nation was inte rested. Now, they had no wish to interfere with. the` Right Honourable.Gentleman's right principle. If he was right now, he had been so long enough ; and they who recollected how the Right Honourable Gentleman had persisted in the Naval and Military Pension Bill, 'against the wish of •the House; would think that this 'new light had only broken in upon him vera.lately, and now became to tile:question (A Laugh).—He thottght that the meaning of the Order was So clear that there was no need whatever to refer it to"a Committee; but if such was the wish of the House, he would not oppose it. The LNIANCELLO/t of the Eattranyza explained. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that no one would ac cuse him of wishing to oppose the introduction of a principle width had been ddayed too long. His re minks,-therefore, would have the advantage of being unsuspected. He thought that the Standing Order Onf.tht CO be referred to a Select Committee, which was the Parliamentary course, and he hoped that his Honourable Friends dear him would not object to it. Lord MILTON thought the better way would be to refer the Dig tb a Committee. Mr. RICARDO hoped thittlis Majesty's Ministers would not be' discouriged; but persevere in ridding, the country of the' tnithy obnoxious laws which at present existed. ' Mr. CANNING toiticided-in the coarse suggested by the Noble Lord (Milton), 'of sendihg the Bill to.a .Committee; but as the discussion had arrived, he thoupt it would be better to have a decision at once. Atter a • few words from Mr. Burros and Mr. Huss tssoN; • Mr. P. MOORE thought, that the Oicier ought to be referred to a Committee. He was somewhat in -terested in the subject, because he had brought a Bill into the House for the repeal of fOrty:four Acts of Parliament.—The motion was then agreed to, and a Committee appointed ' INTERFERENCR WITH SWITZERLAND. Mr: BROUGHAM, seeing the Right lion. Gen tleman'the Secretary for Foreign Affairs in his place, withetlaci ask him a piestion fiamdedcat information that-he had received, Which, if not entirely authentic, was at least entitled to Mine credit.; -it Ipparendy re-, hued to a 'farther developemmit of the - system on which the - Holly Alliance proceeded: That informa tionivaslii ' , the ' , Weft, that lately, notwitliitanding all the efforts of the Swiis Cantons to court the favour • .-.. • stiopt. of the Holy Alliance, by raging a, domicile to the. refugees who sought an astlnds in Swazerland, *ask been taken b 7 the tonshined: Powers, which Wire a jest subject of alum,. oven if the inforrqation on which.he proceiddd was but partiplly correct. His statement referred to a communication which had been made by the Austrian Government to several of the Swiss Cantons; haring for its Ohject,titohtsio se veral material Changes in their internal constitution; that the Protectorate of au Archduke of Austria had beinoffeied to these Cantons; and not only that, but 1 that they-had extended their kiadaels from temporal I to religious concerns ; that they had required certain i changes in the Ecclesiastical Constitution of the Can-j tons, among which the appointment of Catholic Bishops in Catholic Cantons, if not insisted on, was; proposed; that the cession of Geneva to the King of, Sardinia had also been mentioned; that the whole or part of those demands had been stated to the present Government, who had been asked if it was contrary to the interest and policy of France to see Austria predominant in Switzerland? and that the answer had been, that it certainly was in opposition to the wishes, interest; and ancient policy of France; but that it was less so than to see the neighbouring country of Swit zerland made the focus of Jacobinism. These were. the reports which had reached him; and he believed that in another place it had been stated that the three' Powers had concluded a treaty in March last far the military occupation of Switzer land, under certain con tingencies. His information did not extend so far as this last point ; but even if the least part of the lesser statement were true, it was much too much. It would shew•the real character of the Allied Powers, and furnish a better proof of the folly of this country in abdicating the power of effectually interposing in the maintenance of international freedom. Mr. Secretary CA NNING.-- 44 If the least part of the Hon. Gentleman's lesser statement be much too. much, I have the satisfaction to tell him that the least part is much • more than his Majesty's Govern ment are informed of." _ ...-... ...._....__ Mr. HUME asked whether his Majesty's Govern ment had given orders to respect blockades of Turkish ports by the Greeks where a blockade was bonafttle existing? Mr. CANNING said, it was trus that, in one or two instances, in one instance especially, the Greek blockade, instituted according to all the laws of war, had been violated by a British cruiser; but it was equally true, that orders had been given to re spect that blockade in future. IRISH INQUIRY. Sir R. HERON-said, that it would relieve many persons from great inconvenience itsome.determina; tion was come to as to the manner in which the in quiry into the conduct of the Sheriff of.publin was. to be conducted. A great number of witnesses were in attendance, at a great expense and great inconvel. nienCe. Some of them, it was probable, would not . have a question put to them, for certainly there had been but little information derived from those wit nesses who had lately been examined. Ile wished, therefore, that the House would take the subject into consideration, and either fix some day for the in quiry, or give it up altogether. Colonel BARRY said, that no one Was less dim-' posed than he to delay . the House. But in reply to the obt.ervations of the Hon. 13aionet, that the in quiries of the last day had been unimportant, he would say, that he should be able to sheer-, that the facts which had been elicited during the last day's in- . quiry had been most important. He was anxious that the inquiry should be brought to a conclusion, and he hoped that an early day would be appointed. Sir 4.IIEILON disclaimed any intention of allud ing to thequestions put by the Hon. Nlember. Mr. ABERCItOMBY wxisurpiiced at the manner in which thii cpieition had been treated by the Hciuse. It had been understood that all business should be suspended until the conclusion of the in- quiry ; and yet there had been some time suffered to elapse without the subject being brought on. He thought the question a most important one, and hoped that it would nit be suffered to die a natural death. Mr. HUTCHINSON urged the Honourable and gallant Colonel to fix a day for resuming the inquiry.; Colonel BARRY said, he was ready to resume at to-morrow, if the House agreed. Mr. CALCRAFT suggested that the Hon. Mem ber should move the Order olthe Day immediately, 'and take the sense of the House upon ir. Colonel-IMR It Y said, that he had never yet meted . ' the• Order of tlie Day far the bigotry. The Hartour able GentleMati who had "begin the inquiry had usually moved it, and he ought to press the business to a eemclusion. _ _ -Mr. CA l i elt AITT then :aid, thtt he vt , onld tertnor row tome the . Order of the Day. Luau timestoas AND IikLItiPAY 011/C211116 General GASCOYNE rose to• complain of "the operation of the 'warrant issued by the Noble Lord on the subject of.pensions and half-pay to Officers residing in Ireland. Such a line of conduct was un just and invidious, and.such a practiee should be dis contineetl. The Ira soldier fought like the English, and residence in Ireland should not be made the means of depriving him of that pay and those allow awes which the liberality of thiscountry allowed him. II this course were continued, many Officers would leave Ireland, and probably enter into foreign ser vice. All British or Lish Officers, whether serving in - Rossia or' Austria, br viherever serving, had the benefit of British pay ; Ireland only . was made to be the exception. And what was the saving gained "by this ? £7BOO. Were men, fit for Magistrates, con stables, and heads of yeomanry corps-in Ireland, now so necessary and desirable, to be discouraged, from residing there and doing a service to the country?— Was it because provisions were cheap .in Ireland that this conduct was pursued? If so, then theprincipde should be applied to Scotland, or to Devonshire, and the rate of pay be apportioned to the various pricer of provisions. On the ground .of pohity itself, the. plan should be done away. The Hon. bleacher ems eluded by moving- 4, That an 'Address 'should be presented to his Majesty, praying that he would be! graciously -pleased to direct that the Wasvabt of the 6th of March last, as to aiciaikniences col half-pay Officers and triows tesideat in lroland, I should be retOoliderar . Lord PALlialignibl saaiiiyod it rater strange that while the Kossee 7 ingod .he ditivesioasat gene rally they illseobi *Mi. Weaned upon to add to the publieltipettkOre. The Teal qtiestiotitty in narrow compass: all the Military Establishments t. y . in Irish curreuley, *eft so k . was made to appear that the Warrant the eth Of; March wasvninnovation; but it was nO such thing. The half-pay depended on the place: where the regiment might be dismissed, and this was always the case with the officer or the soldier. The army serving in Ireland was paid in Irish currency, and why not the half-pay be paid in the same? The ' case was worse against the person serving, for he was sent to Ireland perhaps against his own will, and often with, great inconvenience. If all the existing Military Establishments were paid in English cur rency, the increase would amount to £127,000. and if our Establishment was the same as in 1814, it would be increased to 087,000. This was a mat ter which required consideration, and could only be embraced, under the general question of an assimi lation of the currency. His (Lord Palmerston's) ob ject was, that the individual should be paid in that currency in which he spent his income. The prin ciple complained of did not commence With the last Warrant of March, but was acted on from 1815; The general principle then acted on he considered to be both just and feasible. He would, however, make one exception, which was, that officers usually re ceiving the English•allowance, but now residing in Ireland, should have the English allowance conti nued ; but at the same time that those on the Irish allowance should be paid in Irish currency. Though he opposed the motion of his Honourable Friend, he should allow this alteration ; although he ?bought, as a general principle, it was a bad one. •With respect to sidows since 1812, they were permanently estab lished, and received their allowance according to the currency of that country in which they resided. Sir JOHN NEWOORT complained of the inju rious effect of the Warrant• of' die 6th of March, which hid a tendency to alienate our officers and in duce them to reside in foreign countries. There was something, however, .in the admiision of the Noble Lord, which, tho Ugh in his view not•going far enou , ' . would have a good effect in a most deserving quartet. Sir H. VIVIAN thonght that it was but lair that the half-pay should be paid to persons resident in Ireland in English currency. They all fought alike, and should all be paid alike, particularly since the union of the two countries. ' Mr. H. HUTCHINSON considered the whole Army should be paid in the same currency, - particit larly since the union of the two countries, as was pro perly remarked by the gallant Officer. The persons resident in Ireland had not ouly to complain of the effect of this Warrant, which took one-thirteemh of their pay, but also of the further deduction occa sioned by the rate of Exchange, which was generally abainst Ireland. The mischief of the regulations was not confined to this, for it went to make a Most de serving class of persons leave that country at a time when their services were of the first importance. Sound policy, not to speak of justice, would thew that a body of men who had fought and bled, and would still bleed iviren called upon, in the service of their King and Coantry, should not be alienated from the service, 'and that at a period when their services might be so soon rendered necessary. Too mud) could not be done for such deserving and meritorious indivi duals, in place of inflicting injury and outrage on them. Mr. GRATTAN thanked the Hon. Gentleman who brought - forward this mo tion. The Irish officers paid for their commissions according to the English scare of regulation, and why not receive their pay on the same? The iralf-pay officers residence in Ire land should be encouraged rather than prevented, as it would - be - by the r'egulation of the Noble Lord. Mr. HUME was decidedly opposed.to the regula tion of the Noble Lord, and added, that no distinc tion should be made is the pay of officers who per formed the same duties and were liable to'the same penalties - for neglect. Much had been done by the assimilation of other Irish establishments to those of England, and he saw no good reason why the same system, when it worked so beneficially, should not be acted upon relative to the half-pay. 'lt was impossi ble that it could be in contemplation 'at the Horse Gaards - to have done such an act of injustice to offi cers in the service removed to Ireland, as it appeared had teeh done by the Noble Lord's noted Circular of the nth of May. He objected to the alteration of theit allowances, because they were partial. The officers Ofthe Gerfhan Legion received, though resi ding abroad, their full half-pay in - English - mone y. 'ln his mind, every Of fi cer ought to have a bounty on ,his pay whe resided in Ireland. 'Their residence Min tend totranqailliie that forsaken country. -He con tendlid, that by Mr. SiiiteicAct the Noble Lord had nOlEl'4ll rig Tr to pit hiltiih currency in' London any officers on their being sent to Ireland. He would -gladly endeavour to repair past injustice, by voting, that all the troops serving in Ireland should be paid" in English currency; 'inhere nett the Army Estimatei tame before die House.' An Honourable' Mastistft ender the gallery said; this regulation was equally unjust as to make an 'order, that Officers on our hatl-pay who resided at Boulogne should receive their money at the rate of 24 francs a pound British, instead of 251 francs, as they were now entitled to. Sir C. LONG said, that the vote rot Irish . Half-pay had - always been in Irish money, and the Tote for - fish - Half. pay in British currency. He concurred with his Noble Friend in the modification proposed. Colonel DAXlESShought"the modification of the Noble Lord did not:Roar enough., General oAscona replied 'Though he should withdraw the motion, he reserved to himself the right of renewing it, even in the course of the present Sta tion's—The motion wai'then withdrawn. Ilan AND WM ISESIA U,OAR MITI= Mr. WOOLEYCHE WHITMORE,. in .rising to move for the appointment of ICommittee to inquire into the Duties paid on East and West India Sugars, regretted that a motion so important bad not been 'brought forward . by some Methber possessed of - greater: ability, greater weight, and of longer stand ing in that House„ - His only motive for entering upon it - was this, that if he had not'done so, he feared the, subject would not have been dilly investigated. He - should divide what he had to say under three heads. In the . first place, be would discuss the question with reference to the interests bf• the .consumer. In the second, with reference. to the. East Indies; and in the 'third, with refeeence to 'llia West Indies. With re sftct to the' first; he 'thought it iras not necessary for tilts to - trespais keg' on thethise - of the House -to prove"tbat the - tonsumer hid a 'right .0 obtain his sugar: on the best possible terms, and theft this tie* ought not to be interfered with but on -considtre.:.„ tides of grave importance. He proceeded to nod* 'the prices contended for as remunerating p r i m , b y • the West,lndia Merchants, and the amount of daft charged on sugars. Taking the lowest estimate o t the consumption it would be found that 160,000 tom were annually demanded. He estimates that o ik 'these the Public paid a duty. of 4:669,0015 . prr e i,.. num. That duty, looking at the circumstai.ve whi c v might be expected shortly to arise wonld, eve arty(, pated, ere long, be increased to upwards 01*(1,000,04 With respect to India, he was persuaded that so* measure favourable to its produce must sooner later be adopted. If this were not done, our ds m i e nions in the East would be in danger. Dotty th,.. bertson had described the ancient trade with India* have been carried on by the importation of cha lk spices, and other commodities from that calm% and by the exportation of bullion frOnlEutopk; t ic tc the trade had been for centuries; and such it cloa k ; nued down to the opening of the free trade. Sever a t revolutions had taken place in India, bet notwith: standing the lapse of ages, and the change o f 4, ; nasty, no alteration in the commerce between Ni t . and Europe had taken place down to the period to which he had referred. The opening of the fre e t e o 4 -.. to India had prodUced one of the greatest revolutio 3 in commerce which had ever occurred, and LA had been found to offer a mart for. goods firm tail- country, such as scarcely could have been imagiset by the most sanguine speculator on the advantages to be derived from that measure. To shew how rapidly the trade increased, he wouM state, that the amnu st of woollens exported in the year ending Jarman.; 1815, was £1,084,434. In the year ending Januarr, 1822, the exports of woollens amounted to 1,421,6 1 1 But the most remarkable increase which had tal* place, was the increase in the exports of cotton in t manufactured state. The value of these was, in tali, 109,486'. In 18'22, the exports of. inaliiit4ctined 1 ' mon amounted to 1,122,3551. htili k ; an increase :,.,:.hin that short period of more than44rie million's' 'value. When he reflected on the situation of India, and the low prices in that country, it appeared to him most extraordinary, that, by weans of our steam. engines, and our power•loonts, British traders were 'enabled to import the raw material finds India, and 'subsequently export it in a manufactured state at such low prices as to undersell the native manufac turer. • This he considered one of the mutt extraor dinary ttiumphs of skill and industry which had ever been known in any country... But while exulting in this triumph, they ought not to torget the effects which it produced in India. He believed the native manufactories in the neighbOurbtad of the Preside*. cies, which had existc.! .s . or t 1:! , I earliest periods, bad been deittoyed. This might prove a blessing Or a curse to :India, as that House s4trall determine. ig. might provea blessing if they gave enc ouragement the consumption of those articles which the national, India could produce with advantage to themselves Mt benefit to others; but these being excluded from lish consumption,. than the destruction of their ni t factories, he did not seruple to say, there hid never been committed an act of greater injustice and atrociti: The situation of India was not unlike the forma hip tuation of Ireland. Before the American war, Itiek produce was not allowed to come into this coati* —What was the tesult ? Why, in the midst oft disastrous war, Ireland claimed her r i g ht w ith tite bayonet, and an Act then passed which the Soo had previously refused to sanction, tinder what's produce of her soil could be brought here. Could be supposed that the same line of conduct put•sitakii India would lead to a different result? He co that it would be as unjust as it Was unwise to assists this from the unwarlike character of the native. ele not the existence of our Indian enipir:: depend ea the - sepoys' arms—on the feelings of the porulatiostsid on the native bayonets? These turned against asoor empire could not last for a day. It must perish, , , " Anddike the baseless fabric of a Wok " Leave not a wreck bel lad!" • It was'supposed by some that there was no dupla foreign invasion. But.lndia had formerly beteis• waded. Supposing a second Alexander, prevent another Darius, should find himself on the balkier the flydaspes, he would ask if no danger "restate apprehended from the natives availing the/mint CI the opportunity this offered of shaking off the• which the conduct of England had madeintolwage• He *mild say that they ought not to trust OIL much security to the peculiar character of the or sooner or later they would rue their ips In the present. instance that change which was as much called for by our own Womb the obligations of justice and religion. He utak if the loss of our trade with India could becOotrai plated with indifference? The importance d trade, if under-rated here, was not under-rated. He had never spoken with a-foreigner. retreat East Indies, who did not attach the highest is? ,_,lott* once to it, yet never had a trade been so ovarisos!„ as this had. been. .He thought .every aria PA pond'' 111 2 . the importance of increa s in g , as much as posil . general commerce of the country. Who 'ctr l at the distreis lately'knovin,sand•at the seeds 0! distress, now faintly diacernible,withoatTiermilt uf to increase our trade, if possible, was a positiss a° 1 There would be no difficulty. inthe way dia.' our trade in India, if' this country would sal ( turn what India could produce: ..But nuts.! must be admitted, or the present trade cook ( tinue. • It India offered a fair prospect df a of trade, no man could deny its imports!' must be the more felt when the House 21 the inducements had out to . ...Tazialig: transfer capital from ibis cattily to r. , it might be more advantageousli , edII had stated that .the ancient. cciistaerteL) -led -so the exit's:tuition of bullion lioni. 10 .in, consequence of she changes which 1 place bullion was now .. drawn ' from l's ,Was quite clear. that . this could not Ist Bullion was not the produce of India-r*lni been carried thither from Europe, and Oil .. was quite clear that a trade which biattrill cc MU'S shortly stop. With regardloll Indies, it was said that they had a rigist.s6 I tinuance of this duty. He asked theta. WW and they said the right of charter. 8 0 9 411 . to the .duties Which bad .heretofore eroS! • like the recognition of star f I -Hely, nd-that the duties-were:the se • as the 'West ladies, and sometimes r 'Vle, I thence, onus; 1 nothing. . - • •