Star. — London, England, 1822-06-12 00:00:00

r :. t , Y - , .~ PARLIAMENT4RY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 11., The LORD CHANCELLOR presented a Petition from Sudbury against the Catholic Peers' Bill.—Laid on the tibia Lord CA R RING'ION presented a Petition front Wycombe, in the County of Buckingham, praying fur sion of the Criminal Code.—Laid on the table. Mr. Braman; and others brought up from the on tie Annuities Memorial Bin, the Colonial Trade 13111, and the Annie dean Trade Bill, which were read a first time. The Earl oT SII A FTESBURY, in the absence of his Noble Friend (the Earl of Liverpool), gave notice that it was the in tention of that Noble Earl to move the second reading of the Colonial and American Trade Bills on Monday next. Hie Lordship then postponed the second reading of the Bills con meted with the Navigation Laws to that day. Sir 43.`Htt.t. and others brought up a Message from the Com mons requesting that the Marquis of Dowe siner be allowed to attend their Committee now sitting on the trade of Ireland. The LORD CHANCELLOR replied that their Lordships would send an answer by Messengers of their own. The question was then put that the Marquis of Devriennas be allowed to attend, and leave was granted. Viscount SIDNIOUTH presented a Petition from the Bo rough of Devizes against the Catholic Peers Bill.—Laid on.the table.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. WESTERN presented a Petition from the Yeomen and Farmers of Romford against the Act of 1819, for resuming Cash Payments; and another to the same effect front Rochford.— Ordered to lie en the table, and be printed. Mr. W ILLI A NIS (of Lincoln) presented a Petition from several Inhabitants of that City, complaining of the injury done to their trade by hawkers and pedlars. Ordered to lie on the table. Lord STANLEY presented a Petition from Eccles, in Lan ashire, against the Licensing Bill.--Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. CREEVEY postponed to the 27th instant, his motion respecting the Pension Act. Ile should, on that occasion, sub mit to the House a series of Resolutions, one of which would refer to the pension granted to Lord Sidmouth. Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved for an Account of all Sums of Money received by Public Officers in Ireland for Fees, on occasion of the death of his late, and the accession of hii present Majesty.—Ordered. Mr. HUME moved for a Return of the • Lands and Heredi fitments of his Majesty, in right of the Crown of Ireland, which have been sold under Acts of the Irish Parliament, authorising their sale : and of the appropriation of the sums received from those-sales. Sir GEORGE HILL said a few words ; after which the mo tion was agreed to. Mr. lIUME then moved for a Return of the present income of the Lands and Hereditament* not sold. Sir G. HILL thought the motion was too general and exten sive. He had no objection to any particular return for any ob sect in the contemplation of the Hon. Member. Sir J. NEWPORT thought the Return moved for would be unnecessarily voluminous. Mr. lIUME then withdrew his notice, and said he would consult with the Right Hon. Gentleman, as to the best mode of obtaining the inforntation necessary for his particular purpose. Sir J. NEWPORT brought up the Second Report of the Committee on Grand Jury Presentments; and said be should move for leave to bring in a Bill on the subject to-morrow.—The Report was read andreedered to be printed. • On the motion ortifr. Batmar, the recommittal of the Ale houses Licenses Bill was postponed till tomorrow. Mr. MANNING presented a Petition from Bridewell Hu pltal, against the Prisons Consolidation BlLL—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. RUMBOLD presented a Petition from the Catchers and Curers of Herrings of Great Yarmouth, in the County of Norfolk, praying for the total repeal of the Salt Duty.--. Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. HUME presented a Petition on the same subject, from certain &gathers of Yarn, in the town and neighbourhood of Arbroath., Mr. PHILLIPS animadverted on the conduct of the Chan cePor of the Exchequer. He was so accustomed to impose burdens on the People, that be could not do a gracious thing . towards the People wi thout coupling it with something ungraai does. Th is he instanced in the course pursued by the Right ' Honourable Gentleman when be introduced the Bill respecting Spoiled Stamps, which be made the vehicle for imposing a heavy tax on the transfer of agricultural property, and this was the way in which he had thought it right to shew his re. gird for the agricultural interest.—The Petition was ordered to Ile on the table. - Sir A. DON presented a Petition from the Skinners, Tan ners, Carriers, and others concerned in the Leather Trade, in the town of Kelso, Roxburgbsbite, praying the Repeal of the Leather Tax.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Alderman BRYDGES presented a Petition from the Muter, Wardens, and Fellowship of the art and mystery of Clothmaking. The Petitioners set forth that a very great trade Was formerly carried on by the manufacturers of clocks and watches. but of late years, from the 'number of foreign clocks std watches introduced into this country, their trade bad fallen Ile, those connected with it reduced to great distress, and many brought to a state of paoperism. The Petitioners now com plained of the provisions contained in a Bill lately introduced, which authorised the warehousing of foreign clocks, watches, and watch glasses, as they were apprehensive that the articles SS warehoused would either find their way into the home, or, being altered in appearance, be exported to foreign markets as *Wes of British manufacture. They therefore prayed that ; that part of the Bill to which they alluded might not be suffered to pass into a law. Mr. THOMPSON, in seconding the Petition, observed that he concurred in all the opinions expressed in it. He had reason to know that the greatest alarm prevailed amongst all persons engaged in the watchmaking trade respecting, this measure ; and, for his awn Fart, he believed that their apprehensions were not groundless. fhe frauds which would arise out of it were obvious. it was the duty of the House to protect our own manufan tures in the first place, he thought this Petition entitled to great, attention. It was to be observed that the Petitioners did not Merely state that the measure would be disadvantageous to their trade, ' • that it would absolutely destroy it—(Hear).—The House should, at all events, afford such protection to the English 'Manufacturers as would not expose them to an unfair competio don with the foreigner, who, from the cheapness of labour in other countries, and the absence of taxation, was enabled to sell the article at lower price. For these reasons he hoped the House would not pass into a law that part of the Bill in question, from which the Petitioners apprehended such ruinous results. Mr. Alderman WOOD said, for the last ten years they bad been iu the habit of receiving representations of the distressed state of the numerous class of persons connected with the watch and clock trade. The had certainly lost much of their foreign trade, and the provisions of that Bill against which they now petitioned, went to take from them the home market, to the supply of which they were now confined. He thought that the Petitioners were fairly entitled to have their case taken into Mr. WALLACE said, this was not the time to enter upon ' the subject of the Petition. When the Bill got to a Committee the proper opportunity would occur for taking it into consider ation.—The Petition was ordered to lie on the table. Xs E. BUItDETT presented a Petition from certain Agri culturists in the Parish of Bratling, in the Isle of Wight, com plaining of distress, which they ascribed to the alteration of the astrency.—Drdered to be printed. Mr. BIRCH presented a Petition from certain Traders and other Inhabitants of the Town of Nottingham, complaining of the injuries sustained by them from Mock Auctions and travel- Oil Psalm—Ordered to be printed. SALT TAX. , Sir W, LEMON presented a * Petition from several Persons engaged in the Fish-curing Trade of Corn ., wall, complaining; f the Tax upon Salt. They con aiatred that the proposed modification of the present duty would- opei,ate at a new tax. lie thought no thing bat the total abandonment of the terivould be productive of any benefit. Mi. RUMBOLD supported the Petition: . . lt. FE itG USSON said, that time states:pot of die :Petitioners applied in every sespect to die Fisheries tinf Scotland. They would be ruined if theyespettt tat 'ere persisted in. Mr: D. GILBERT also spoke in &vow of *be Pt ition. He fuller agreed that the distress occashriall • - . ' : - • ' : 114 1PP4... • sition).—He t. nu * objection ment cheered by the Hon. Members. 'lli should be happy to find the tax repealed ; but be would not wish to have it repealed at the expense of public credit. Mr. TREMAYNE said, he had nodosibt-theChan cellor of the Exchequer was not aware of - the sevei ity with which this tax pressed upon the fisheries. One individual engaged in that branch of trade would have to pay eight thousand pounds for duties, in Ja nuary next. He saw no chance of relief but in the total repeal of the tax. Sir *M. W. RIDLEY thought the taking off of a tax would be as beneficial if proposed by any Mem ber, as it would be if proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman.. The tax on salt would have a consider able effect on those engaged in the manufacturing of glass bottles. They would have to pay £6 a ton for their alkali, instead of 50s. as heretofore.. Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN said, he thought a total repeal of the tax was most desirable ; but he had no wish to disturb the general satisfaction which pre vailed in the House when the Right Hon. Gentleman brought the subject forward, and be had therefore abstained from remarking upon it. Mr. BRIGHT spoke in favour of the total repeal. He was satisfied the repeal woubLnot affect the Re venue ; and he, therefore, hopel the Hon. Member (Mr. D. Gilbert) would be induced to vote for the repeal, even though it should be proposed) from his (Mr. Bright's) side of the House. Lord A. HAMILTON said, that when the Bill came regularly before the House, he should be pre pared to shew the effect of the tax upon Scotland.— He understood that that part of the country was not to be benefittedby the repeal, though it would in its consequences be injurious to Scotland. He looked at the question as one affecting the general welfare of the empire —(Hear, hear). • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was his intention to propose a clause, exempting Scotch salt from the duty. As the tax would fail heavily upon Ireland, he purposed also proposing a measure for the relief of that part of the kingdom.— Upon the question respecting the Fisheries, he con fessed be had net yet been able to make up his mind. It was an important subject; and he was not yet pre pared to give up so considerable a portion of the Revenue as that arising from salt consumed in the fisheries. He thought, - however, that these points of detail should be reserved until the question came be fore the House in a regular shape. Mr. C ALCR AFT agreed that the discussion should not be anticipated ; but it was an advantage for the Right Hon. Gentleman to hear the sentiments of those whose local situations gave them opportunities of judging of the effect of the Tax. It was evident that the more the Right. Hon. Gentleman proceeded in his measure, retaining a pact of the duties, the more he was surrounded by difficulty. The retention of. the tax was, in fact, putting a new tax upon another class of the people. It would be better to give up the paltry remnant of the'tax ; and he trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman would gain himself the credit of doing so before the end of Session. He (Mr. Cal craft) understood from the Salt Shippers of Liverpool, that it wool! be impossible for them to collect their debts from the retail dealers if the tax were retained. Mr. HUME said, the bleachers, who were much interested in this tax, would not be able to carry on their .trade if the tax were continued in the shape proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. WOPEHOUSE said that the present tax was in all respects a new tax. He implored the Right ,Honourable Gentleman to remit the tax altogether, and he might be assured that his doing so would be considered the most acceptable boon he could offer to the People. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said the remnant of the tax would operate as an additional burden upon Ireland. , Mr. CARTWRIGHT suggested that the repeal of the Leather Tax should be suspended for the present, and that the whole of the Salt Tax should be taken off. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON assured the Right Hon., Gentleman he had received, communications from Ireland expressing the greatest alarm at the tax as it was now proposed to retain it. He trusted the Right' Hon. Gentleman would give it up. Sir ISAAC COFFIN .said, the fishermen would by this tax he deprived of the means of living alto gether. He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would not forget that the fisheries were the nurseries for British seamen, who bad so often deserved and re ceived the thanks of the country. Mr. CURWEN trusted the Right Hon. Gentle man would not persevere and force the House to compel him to give up-the tax. Mr. W. SMITH said, that the fisheries had long been a losing trade in consequence of the heavy pres sure of this tax. The proposed drawback on expor tation would be of no assistance to them, for they could not defray the expense attending the tax as it affected home consumption. Mr.T. WILSON was not one of those who thought the Salt Tax should be wholly taken off, unless mea sures were suggested for making up - the deficiency in the Revenue which such a measure would occasion. Mr. LESTER supported the prayer of the Petition. Mr. V. FITZGERALD described the injurious consequences which retaining the proposed amount of duty would have on the trade of Leland, which was already so distressed that it could hardly sustain the burdens already imposed on it. He would be the last man to start _unnecessary objections to the plans of his Right Hon. Friend, but in the present case he felt thatlie should fail in his duty if he wele, ,not to state that to the Chancellor of the Exchequer which he knew must speedily be pressed on his attest-. tion from other quarters. Sir IL FERGUSSON chewed that the duty pro posed to attach to the fisheries, though it would be felt severely by the parties, • would contiibute but a very small sum to the Revenu.e.—The Petition was then read, and ordered to be printed. MUMMY OS THE COUNTRY. Mr. WESTERN, pursuant to the notice which he bad given, rose to perform a duty which he regarded as one of great importance. He thought it right to say, that, op his opinion, the present calamitous si tuation of the country ought to be aiirribeci to that S f 7r Pl gIF T"w ,genre, result of a very laborious inquiry, commenced and prosehited with a sincere desire to get at the real truth. At the outset, then, he took upon himself to arraign the wisdom, justice, and policy, of that mea sure, which had been adopted by the House some. years ago—the measure under which the country had returned to the old standard of our currency. Among the authors of that measure, there were men to whose opinions he looked up with great deference.' He did not mean to treat it as one which had been exclusively' framed 'by his Majesty's Ministers. He knew that it had passed with the concurrence of the most distin- 1 guished Members of that House; and, therefore, i* bringing forward this motion he did not mean to up-1 braid Ministers with it; and still less did he mean to censure those of their opponents who had given it the sanction of. their approbation: He considered their authority entitled to great weight; but still, as he could not regard any set of men as infallible, he must hold that it was possible 'for them at times to be egregiously'in error. In the case to which he now wished to direct the attention of the House, he was of opinion that at no period had a body of statesmen, in this or in any ether country, committed a more fatal error, than had been committed by the passing of the Act for returning to the ancient standard of our currency. When he spoke thus, he did not mean to confine himself to the Act of 1819, • but he spoke of that together with the concurrent measures of the years immediately preceding.. He had at the outset arraigned the wisdom, policy, and justice of the mea sure, and he felt justified in going further, and say ing, that to that all the present lamentable distress, and all the difficulties with which the country had to contend were to be ascribed. He did not deny that there were circumstances which, without this, would press heavily on the country.' The taxation under which it laboured--the laws respecting British agri culture, and the Poor-rates, were sufficient to cause a considerable pressure, without the currency; but with these the country had thriven and prospered, and with these it had still continued to thrive and prosper, but for the adoption of that injurious and fatal measure, to which he now called their attention. He wpuld undertake to prove that this measure pressed severely on all classes, with the exception of the fundholder and the annuitant, and if he failed to make out this, he would give up the subject altoge ther. He would also shew that the severe distress at present experienced in Ireland was to be ascribed to this measure. He begged to call the attention of the House to the moral and political effects of lowering or raising the value of money. He accordingly shewed the effect which each operation must produce on the situation of a person possessing £lOOO per annum, whom he supposed to owe £5OO out of the £lOOO, and shewed that the operation of the two changes would go to strip him of his whole property. This, it could be :hewn, was the case, or nearly the case, in thousands of instances where mortgages had been made, and obligations contracted, under the al 'tered currency. Though it was obviously desirable to avoid lowering the value of money below the re gular standard, yet this would not, morally speak ing, produce the same extent of injury, nor did it physically produce the same degree of evil, as raising it would not fail to do. In the latter case it affected all classes, down to the meanest labourer. The dif ference between raising and lowering the value of money ought never to have been left out of the con templation of those who decided on giving up the standards by which the concerns of the country had been regulated for a quarter of a century. The mea sure had enormously 'increased all the burdens of the country. Though he did not wish to call the atten tion of the House to an essay on the theory of money, he felt it-necessary to submit to them some gene; al propositions, to which he thought no one would object, on the uses, functions, and nature of money. By all modern authorities it was agreed that money was only important As a medium of exchange and a measure of value. By Doctor Adam Smith it was said to be valuable, as a necessary instrument of commerce, but it formed no part of the Reve nue of a State. One essential quality in money was this, that it should be as invariable as possible., —On this account the precioui metals had been pre ferred by the common consent of mankind, but these were not secure from variations. The State of the mines being more or less productive, or the discovery of new mines might cause their value to vary. Ocher causes might affect their value, such as an increase or a falling off in the demand, or the adoption of sub stitutes for them. As soon as a credited currency had been established, which was the case here, and in other parts of the world, as a part of the aggregate cur rency, the character of the metals for invariability must necessarily be affected. Other circumstances, :itch as the increase of wealth and population, would also change.their value: and these in modern times, but for that credited currency, which had been brought to such perfection, would have rendered the supply .of the metals, if the mines were not more productive than formerly, inadequate to supply the demand.— He then read extracts from Locke and Dr. Adam Smith, on the character of the precious metals,- and shewed that, in some instances, it had. appeared, that rents received in corn had, in a long course of years, varied less in value than those paid in money. Ho proceeded to shew what had been the effect of the depreciation of money during the late war. He. was not one of those whp thought the country had only enjoyed a fictitious prosperity. To him it appeared that we had acquired all that had constituted 'real wealth, while that state of things continued, and at the same time the population had increased more ra-1 pidly perhaps than it had ever done within a like period before. In spite of all the pressure of the war the nation had advanced with rapid strides in her agri culture, in her manufactures, and in her commerce; in everything that could indicate real wealth. This wealth remained to us at the end of the period to which he had referred, and was available for all pur poses. In former times, under circumstances some what similar, the population had increased as wealth was accumulated. This would be seen from an -ex tract from a work written by Lord Bacon, then Sir . Francis Bacon, towards the close of the reign of Lli. 44 .r. "7 "1 That arts, bef ore been -built within the the quantity of piste, niture, been **unrelated—. of land been brought into 1 kinds of tenures be ,'n s o i n ., markets been so plentifully .....atteaded—naver,b44 so many _ . vets been cut or directed into new ehanriels ; never luta so many artificers been known; skilled sa ail sorts of handicraft; never were there so mauir - .new i nfra , : tidns, and while war was, never conducted with mo ve vigour and success ; the population had never more rapidly . incieased."'. That such was the effect of an ' ilacreased currency, bad been stated by Mr. Hume; and it was curious that the same ell kal . should the n be produced' at PeriOdi so distant, friSth eitFh other iq this, and as he. believed in every other country fr om the same cause. He 'proceeded"tosbew how the val ue of gold might be carried down by, a great credit cur• rency, and, on this 4ubject he referred to a very able speech' which had been made by the Chancellor ef the Exchequer some years ago, in vfhith the Right Hon.Gentieman hie described the difference between paper and gold, and explained the circumstances which ought to be regarded as affecting the [nice of the latter. He (Mr. Western) considered the al teration of the currency to have altered the prices of Wheat. To ascertain this he had looked back at the -prices of wheatin the one hundred and fifty year ante rior to the commencement ofthe late war. Heltad got ,the average price, of each ten years through that pe. riod, and these he had turned into averages of 50 years. Not to detain the House with the whole, he would merely state the average prices of corn in each fifty years of the period to which he had referred. In the first fifty years, endin g in 1695, the average price of the quarter of whea t was 445. 9J. In the second fifty years, the price was Us. Id. and in the last fifty years, ending in 1793, the prise was 445. 3d.—there being a difference of only a few pence between the prices • of the first and last periods. In the period which had since followed, the average price had beea in the first ten years, ending in 1803, 795. 11d. is the second ten years, ending 1813, the price was 995. During the period of 150 years which he had men tioned, he believed the highest price of the quarter of corn was 525. In the first ten years which followed, the price advanced to 80s. and in the next to 100 s. • I He believed war had commonly little effect on the price of corn. The average price of a quarter of corn in the five years before 1756 was U. 14-. The average of the five years endin g; in 1763 sea , 1/. I Ts. In 1764; the average price was 21. Is. in 176 • it was 21. Bs. and the average of the first five ; ears after 1765 was 21. ss. He now came down to the Ameri can war. The average price of corn in the hve years immediately preceding the American war was 2.1.11 r. The average price during the whole war nas 21.65. This was less than the average price of the five years preceding the war. The price in the year after the war was 21. 14s..and the average price in the first five years was 21. Bs. 2d. the average dialing the whole of the American war having been V. 6, He argued from this, that war did not necessarily increase the price of corn. He also drew his argument from another fact—from the Reports of the quantity ri corn sold in the London markets in the years 181'2 and 1821. This tact was very curious, and corrobo rated his position thoroughly. It would be thought, very naturally, that the demand for corn had in crcased in that period in the same ratio as the popu lation had increased. In 1812, the quantity of wheat sold was 380,921 quarters. at 1255. per quarter. In 1821, the sale was 985,600 quarters, being a smaller quantity, at the rate of 50s. He should •be glad to hear it stated that this alteration could have occurred from any other circumstances than the operations which had been effected with regard to the currency. This was the cause of the existing distress, and not an abundance of corn. He should presently make out that this measure had not only sunk the value of corn, but that every other species of property had fallen in value, although not to the same extent. — When the measure for the restoration of the currency was first proposed, the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite said that they were only doing what had been done in the reigns of Edward I. and Elizabeth. He could shew that this modern measure had no ana logy to the operations which were effected in those .remote times. With regard to Edward I. there could be no return to an ancient standard, because the coinage then in circulatipn consisted of nothing but counterfeits. • Edward VI. had the coinages for re storing money to the value of the standard of Heart • the Eighth, and such interference, no doubt, created • considerable embarrassments and difficulties at the time. But it was set forth in the diary of Edward • the Sixth, that these alterations were made for the purpose of paying his debts; in fact, the object was tO cheat his creditors. I3ut these alterations were never intended to be permanent. They did not last more than six years, notwithstanding that they had not the effect of disturbing private contracts, much less so dreadful an operation upon a public debt as this country now suffered under. They had, indeed, no real effect upon the standard, for they ended in six years by the Act of the sth of Edward VL The statesmen of those days knew better than to revert to the ancient standard of Henry the Eighth, which had been abandoned only twenty-five years, even with out that pressure which now weighed down the re sources of the country. In the case of William IIL there was no alteration made in the currency—. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Peel).-- . -He knew that•a quan tity of debased and clipped coin had been called in— (Hear, hear)—but it was taken in taxes, and not again issued. He must say, therefore, that it was perfectly puerile to say that a measure like the pre sent bore any similarity to those of our ancestor. The House must retrace their. steps in a measure which they undertook in ignorance; and he took blame to himself that he did not at first remonstrate against it with all the pos% er he possessed. He would warn Honourable Gentlemen, by •the responsibility which attached to them, not to let any false or mis• taken pride instigate them to refuse an investigation of a measure that had produced effects which at the time they could not foresee; for if they did so, they would be turning their backs upon the country and betraying its real interests. The HonOurable Ale.m ber then read some passages from Hume and LOCEe , upon the probable results of alterations in the cur . rency, which he considered to be singularly prophetic of the distress in wliich the country was now plunged . IHe contended that the elect •of the alteration could ' 't t' .. M .- cities . • . ••• . . . ..._ . - . . ..•. , , - , . , by the tax was rot- of a air ' j, . Souk - mu" istist whit+ his motion' ' • ' .. ' .• • • Witt& Mk alum stated--" ledied thered Mich . . '' II 's snissichM failing, tinder no nos •' t •• . 0 Ina a like number of houses bee - , . . Mitfistibrs In the *of of 'Os '' . , 1 7. _ aL thou t a would* Adleite that duty whit's lioness todetipOst ow period — never h a d t h e like p a rtialrowsatiall 4 ther;res4in • impolitic hills:it...fulfil. He felt that it wild beAmeniery tvls, and sumptuousfurniture, b and optitliiiive. If, liowiteer, the r • thought for WO to ',raw heavily ins the Inton of the House, v had a like quantity of land it necessary to retells the tax, hesrould.. appose any and- as neither eloquence net wit , to requite col atioo—oever had all kinds of motion for its reduction—(Neer, hear ! from the Op- that attention, he must throw - himself on theft' in- creased—never had the markets . t i o .... lay r bei rtni or m e en th r!cl in and the S it U P PI : a haldwil liett" iMii 11:d el ir l ie sa t ttewied ed into — new aa : onritioa).—He had na objection to repeat the sent!. dolgence,THthe . p.f.0..e5r..d!...,,d