Star. — London, England, 1831-03-09 00:00:00

IMPERIAL P lAM T. HOUSE OF LORDS, MARcii 8. CRUNCH wutt.nsito BLLL. 'lnc Bishop of LONDON moved the Order of the Diy for going into a Committee on the Church Buntline Act. The House accordingly 'orated the <aid Committee, and after several s•lhal amendments lied ' moved by Lewd TEBTERDRN, Lord I.Vyr:FORD. and the lmp of Lottnow,the Pcpnrt was ordered to he receishd on Friday. • Sir A. tiliaNT anal other 'Members from the Commons hrnaght up the Marine Mutiny Pill, and several private hin., which were read the first time. Civil. LIST. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM said he was aware the question he' was about to ask might br irregular, hut the importance of the subject night justify an eralearnur to obtain information. It was a matter of public notoriety that a Committee had been sitting some time in the' other upon the sapplies of the Civil List. As it appeared that ' his Majesty was kept much longer than usual out of the supplies, per- 1 hare tue Noble Earl would tell whether he saw any chance of the Com.l mie na;,ki-g their report, and whether his Majesty's Government in tendrd shortly to bring in a hill upon the subject ? Earl GREY vies aware of the great importance of the subject al l:lad to by the Noble Duke; but it was quite impossible for him to .ay when the report would be made, or whet course of proceeding would be a.lnoted. His hope was, that the debate in the other branch f the constitotion might not last much longer. The Noble Duke might be murcal his Majesty's Government would do all in their power to ir.sten the supplies. Th..: Doke of BUCKINGHA M said a rumour had reached him thra rho Committee would eltorily report, and therefore he hail sup posed his Majesty's Ministers might know when the Bill would be brought in. Earl GREY said it was impossible to give the noble duke intim. or Itiligh The Duke of BUCKINGHAM thought it probable the bill would inttoducul before Rester. Various public accounts were then pre•entcvl at the bar by Mr. Cra. ler, from the Treasury. The receipts and disbursements of the Commissioners of Dover har. Lour were also presented by the proper officer. REFORM. LORD CHANCELLOR said he had to present a petition upon rite important subjecl which then engrossed all minds throughout taw ki og dom. It wag from the Lord Haver and Livery or London in Common Hall moembletl. The nob]; and learned lord observed, ihat he could only account for being selected to present this petition by mat. irg that he had the bounty of being a Freeman of the Corporation of London. The Corporation expressed their strong approbation of the measure for Reform in Parliament, moposctl by his Malesty's gow.on o:ent in the other HOIM! of Parliament, and preyed for the concurrence .•i their lordships in the AMC. The noble and learned lord also pre ,, nted a petition to the game effect from the students of law and practi- ' loners at the bar. members of the four inns of court.—The petitions were read and laid on the table. SOOTCII rxtransyriEs. Tie Earl of 11A DDINGTON, adverting to the elan of reform, said he understood that it was intended to give a few ad , iitional members to Scotland. and the noble lord suggested the justice and expediency of giving the universities of Scotland the right of sending representatives to Parliament. 13.:Atre that claim could be regularly discussed, it might be necessary to know in what state the graimatex stood ; he should, therefore, move an humble address to his Majesty, for a return of the number of graduates in the university of Dublin. distinguishing doc tors of law, physic, and masters of arts. between 1800 and 1831. Also a similar return from the university of Glasgow. The Bishop of LONDON recommended the noble lord to distin guish those who had received degrees in the Universities, and those who had received degrees not being graduated in the Universities. The F.arl of ROSEBERRY supported the object of his noble friend, who wished to give the Universities the right of sending members to ttarliament. Lard TENTERDEN said it was well' known that persons brought up in the inferior practice of medicine in this country could obtain de grees in Scotland without difficulty, and consequently they could not be considered upon the same footing as those who had been graduated al the University. The Earl of H ADDINGTON, having heard the observations of toe Right Reverend Prelate and the Lord Chief Justice, begged to withdraw his motion, for the purpose of bringing it forward again in the .onn suggested. The motion was accordingly withdrawn. Viscount CLIFUEN presented a petition from the Reverend Mr. Doyle, denying that be had taken part in the opposition to the tythe system in Ireland. The petition was opposed to a statement made by a noble lord (Farnham) in that house. The Duke of BUCKINGIIA3I rose to order, and said the petition ersold not be received. The LORD CHANCELLOR said any allusion to the proceedings c f that house. by persons without their doors, was a breach of privilege, tt: O. it was mercy to the petitioner to reject the petition. Attcr a few %voids from Lord FARNHAM the petition was with. t! awn. 'l'Ve House then adjourned at HALF-PAST Six O'CLOCK. HOUSE. OF COMMONS. li:e house proceeded to ballot for election committees, to try the me. nits of rtitions complaining of undue elections for Londonderry city, fir Dover. and Stockbridge. The several committees being appointed, the members were sworn at the table. REFORM. The owlet: of the day for resuming the adjourned debate on reform Ming UFA!, 11r. O'CONNELL rose and said, his object in presenting himself to the house was for the purpose of giving his most decided and anxious ;support to the measures. (Hear.) He looked upon the plan as large, I;lteral, and wise. He would go further, and say it was generous. (hear.) In fact, it was an effectual measure of reform. (Loud cheer ing, and cries of Hear from all parts of the house.) If his Majesty's ministers hatl offered less, the country would have required more. But if the country r.quireel more than was ofiered, it might rationally expect to be disappointed. The measure should have his support; and if he possessed influence elsewhere. that iefluence should be exerted in favour of the bill. It was well known that he was a radical reformer. It was well known his opinion was in favour of universal suffrage, and for short duration of parliament, and vote by ballot. Yet he would not object to the measore although it embraced none of these principles—it was liberal without them. The measure would have the effect of prov ing experimentally that if no further extension was required, no further extension was necessary. If it satisfied the country, it would prove that universal suffrage and vote by ballot were unnecessary. (Hear.) As a radical reformer, he accepted the measure with all his heart. (Hear.) He certainly might raise an objection, that the princip's did not go far enough as regarded Ireland; but he in:d no doubt the Administration thought they had gone far enough in that respect, ::al as the measure was of such an advantageous nature for the Eriti; is community, sorry should he be to offer any opposition. I t had the cilia of opening all close boroughs ; it gave to all copyhold proprietors of 10!. a year the same advantages as those possessed of fieeltoldt fir counties. and never had be heard any cause assigned why they should not be platrd on an equality. As it related to these counties, it was a nteasute highly beneficial. An objection had been started to it, as it related to counties by a right honourable gentleman, by saying that 2$ counties were to have two additional members, and the privy council were to have authority to divide the counties, each district of the county having authority to return two members. It had been said that this war an unconstitutional proceeding, but he (Mr. O'Connell) could rest for his life conjecture on what possible ground it could be called tit constitutional. The privy council in Ireland were employed in a similar manna, Counties were divided into local districts by bar risters of the country, under the authority of the privy council, and all the litigation that took place was tried according to those divisions, nor had ary a an ever made a complaint against any such proceedings. The pity council, too, in Ireland divided parishes, and there had never t ,, r a single complaint against that. Thus the experiment proposed by the prssent measure was not a novel experiment—if it was, it was a hainless inc. After all, if the privy council in England acted wrong— if t: ty meek an unfair division of one county, was it to be supposed that they would make an unfair division of many counties; and if they t)('. make an unfair division of two, three, or four counties, was there not a power in parliament to overrule and check such improper pro ceedings ? (Cheers.) Who could suppose that such a base proceeding on the part of the privy council would be endurable for an hour ? (llear and cheers.) Was it right to nominate to rotten boroughs? Why any one who made such a declaration in a Court of law would be driven out of Court. In Ireland, where the rotten boroughs were paid for, at the time of the Union, at the rate of 15,0001. a piece, a younger brother brought his action against his elder brother for a portion of' the purchase.money of one of those rotten boroughs ; but the Judge before whom the cause came for trial said, it was an audacious action, and nonsuited the plaintiff. The same Judge, however, was himself a trus tee to a marriage settlement, in which the produce of the sale of the ho. rough of Tralee was settled on the younger children. No doubt, as a private gentleman and trustee, Chief Baron O'Grady made the mast of the borough, but as a Judge, he would not allow any thing so uncon stitutional to be brought into a Court of Justice. Yet this is what they call the eld Constitution. He was sure it could not possibly be, and that he would only he wasting the time of the House by expatiating farther on such a subject. In En k liand it was an unmixed good.. No one had stated any thing like a solid Objection to it; and he rejoiced heartily in the view of getting an increased number of constituems, as wig os • an increased number of county mothers, of whom it Led been end trely said, they were the least revolutionary of any. The next poet of the speech of the noble fend opposite related to the boroughs, and he delighted in the mode in whit% the noble lord had treated those bur. roughs. He bat/ applied the pruning knife to the rotten boroughs of this country with a thoroughly masterly hand. lie had eat up, ttn springly, root and branch, those rotten, close, and ohnotious bo roughs. Airhat had been the complaint of the house, what had been the complaints of the people of those rotten and close boroughs, and had that complaint been idle or imaginary ? The people hart complained of them—the public hal complained of them—the house had com plained of diem—they were in direct contradiction to every theory of our Constitution. Every atom of our constitutional principle was vio lated by them. When men talked to him of a new Constitution, he had to ask them what the old Constitution was ? He would ask whe ther the constitution was not that the people should be fairly and pro perly represented, and not that the mound of Old Sarum should send its members into that house. Who could venture to say that Old Sarum was a constitutional borough ? Theoretical writers, lawyers, judges, and all denounced the practice adopted in respect of those bo roughs. Why should noble lords and gentlemen have a right to nomi nate members to sit in that home ? Had they not heard in the course of this discussion of the boroughs of the Duke of Norfolk—of the Duke of Newcastle—of the Duke of Devonshire—of the Marquis of Cleveland—of the Nlarquis of Lansdowne—and of other Nobles—had the house not heard of their boroughs—of their provinces, and of ad mirable tact at finding out young men of genius and talent, and wing ing their way about with the olive branch in their hand, until they found a suitable object on which to bestow their favour. Was this con. sistent with the constitution of the country 1 What was the first rule and determination of that house ? Before they had even sat a eiagle moment in that house, before the King's Speech had been read to them —(a King, than whom no King that ever sat on any Throne would ever deserve better of his subjects) that it would be a high infringement of the tights of the Commons of tile United Kingdom for ens Member of Parliament, Peer, or Prelate—(loud langhter)—to concern him self, or to take any part in the election of a Member to serve in the Commons House of Parliament—(Hear, hear, hear.) Good Gon, was this to be sounded into their ears, and were the lands to send their Members one after the other, in the most open and avowed manner, Into that house for those close and rotten boroughs ? (Loud cheers.) But he was told that they were about to commit robbery—that they were guilty of an unjust seizure of franchises—hut who were the robbers ?--(I - Lear.) He never heard of a grant of a charter by the Crown, empowering any one to send Members to Parliament. He never heard of such a charter. (Hear.) No, the franchises Walt granted to the people; it was not, then, this Act that seized them, but this Act laid hold of the "'inflators of them. They bad no right to question the privileges of the House of Lords, but the Peers had no right to spoliate the privileges and liberties of the Commons of Eng.' s land.—(Great applause.) The close boioughs the people understood perfectly ; the people talked common sense out of doors upon the sub-, ject of Reform, and that common sense was, You have got our property, you have 'polluted our liberties, but you shall disgorge them.—(Great applause.) There was independence, too, in the Members while they shook off the rotten boroughs. God help those who could crawl into that house, mind then talk of coming is without stooping. No, they did not stoop, because they were flown already. He would ask the Honourable Gentleman, Member for Boroughbridge—(ll tar, hear) — lie would appeal to him as an honourable man, as a conscientious man, as a responsible being, could he stand forward and advocate that els tan which in the rotten boroughs gave an annual debauchery and every six years all that bribery, and corruption, and robbery could M illet ? Was such a system to stand ; was it to be advocated? Who was ignorant of it? Who could deny ii out of doors ? Were not the nomination boroughs equally to he sold ? Was not the price of them as notorious as stalls at Smithfield ! And was it to be thought that the educated, independent people of England, awakened by degrees, nut violently, but rising with the gentleness of a s u perior being, awakened with the strength of a giant retieshed--that the people of I:ngland would not exclaim against them, insisting that the foul shame—the infernal blot of the small boroughs, and the high atrocity of the rondos. tion boroughs should be put au end to. He tilt grateful to the Ada& ' nistration that would get rid of both abominations. It was said Tavis. cock, and Caine, anti Knaresborough, world he retained • to their pro- 1 prietors. Of Caine he could speak, because he had presented a pad. Con from two gentlemen, complaining of an undue election for that borough, and who would then be the representatives, only a committee of that house had decided that the right of election lay in thirty-six burgesses. 'That borough would be thrown open, and instead of thirty-six electors would have hundreds ; and after the splendid speech, so full of extensive knowledge, convincing argument., and glowing eloquence with which the honourable and learned gentlemen who now represents that borough had supported this question, and excited the admiration of all who heard him, he was confident those electors, however Increased in number, would do themselves the honour of continuing him their representative. (Cheers.) Prelates were also prohibited from interfering itr the election of meat. hers of that house, yet the Primate of Ireland hail his nominee amongst them in the person of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear, hear.) He came there as the representative of Armagh ; but so little satisfied were the people of Armagh with the Primate's nominee as their representative, that the first thing they did on his being appointed, was to assemble—.Protestants—Presbyterians—Catholics—all united, and burn the right hon. gentleman in effigy. (haughtier.) The bill was simple in its provisions. It gave to resident voters the right of choosing their representatives—and disfranchised non-resident voters who had disfranchised themselves for every purpose but corruption. (Hear, hear.) The member for Aldborough had said Tavistock had but 4,005 inhabitants and Brighton had 24.000, and the bill gave Tavistock two members and Brighton one. This was a fallacy—the bill gave Tavistock nothing ; but it gave a great boon to Brighton. (Hear, hear.) He was wrong in saying it gave Tavistock nothing, in stead of 32 electors, it would have 1,000. (Hear, hear.) Those who cried out for equality would give the some number of members to Rut. landshire as to Lancashire.-.-(Hear.) They would give the same num. her to Garton as to Westminster.—(Cheers.) The. cry of corporation robbery that was raised, made hint look into the case, and he found that of the boroughs that were to be disfranchised, only sixteen were corporations at all.—(Hear, hear.) The opponents of the measure said li the parliament had not aright to disfranchise those boroughs—he thar ked them for that argument, anti hoped they would support him when he brought forward the Repeal of the Union.—(Hear, hear.) The par liament, on that occasion, disfranchised a hundred boroughs. The member for Tamworth said, disfranchisement was atrocious—and the member for Yorkshire said it was iniquitous; he hoped they would both vote for the Repeal of the Union, though, if he had no better ar gument than theirs, he could not hope to succeed. But if Tavistock or any other borough was to be guilty of corruption when there was a reformed parliament, could it be doubted that justice would speedily be executed.—(Hear, hear.) lie approved of the measure altogether, as it regarded England, and as it regarded Scotland—it required no se. cond sight to see that it must be highly beneficial to that country. The 120,000 inhabitants of Edinburgh would now send their own represen tative, instead of having one sent for them by thirty three individuals, who put more money into his pocket for doing nothing than if he was sent by the whole 120,004—(Great laughter.) The Scotch members for counties were returned by elector* who had no interest in the land. A noble lord who represented Sunderland, and very naturally opposed the present bill, was returned by 24 electors, members of his own fa mily. The bill would give to all Scotchmen what so few now pos sessed, the right of choosing their own representatives. It was said Scot land prospered under the present system. Scotland prospered notwith standing the present system. It prospered by its connection with Fog. land, which before the American revolution had long possessed the freest institutions of any country in the world. Ile should now come to Ireland. He was sorry to see that the malign influence that presided over the af. fairs of Ireland had found its way into this bill. He did not envy Eng land or Scotland, he rejoiced at every advantage they gained. He had seen two things in that house respecting Ireland : one was that when ever her poverty and distress were mentioned there was anxious deem expressed to relieve it ; the other was, that when the rights and liberties of her people were in question, the house did not manifest the same sympathy. AU he claimed for Ireland was the benefit of the principle of the Bilk The capital of England had the number of its represents. tives doubled—the capital of Scotland had the number of its represen tatives doubled—the capital of Ireland had no addition. Dublin con tained one-fourth of the population of London, and ought to have one. fourth:of the Representatives—as London would have sixteen, Dublin ought to have four. (Hear.) Many of the English counties that re ceived an addition of two Members had fewer inhabitants than the cour.- ties of Cork, Antrim, Down, Galway, Mayo, Tipperary and Kerry. He respectfully claimed another Member for each of these counties.— He would also respectfully claim another Member for the city of Kil kenny, which, before the Union had four hlembers--now but one; and also a second Member for the town of Galway. He was not proposing to enter into a contract—he was ready to support the Bill in its present state ; but wished the case of Ireland to be reconsidered.—(Hear, hear. hear.) In Antrim sixty thousand forty-shilling freeholders were dis franchised when the Catholic relief hill was passed, almost all Protes- I taLta. The Catholic nobility and gentry, lawyers, and merchants, then in London, met and petitioned Parliament not to disfranchise the Pro-, testant freeholders, but the Catholics only. (Hear, hear.) The free.' hold, he thought, should at least be lowered from ten pounds to six pounds. There were nineteen nomination boroughs in Ireland which' the bill would open. Portarlington was one of them. Lord Portarling ton brought it to the stock market. He wanted forty thousand pounds or fifty thousand pounds. Mr. Ricardo lent the money, on good secu rity, and sat for the borough as part of the contract. He thought ha the small boroughs the rate of rent of voters should be lowered to five pounds; that was necessary, to make the franchise sufficiently exten sive. (Herr, hear, and cheers.) It was unwo r thy th e honourable mew. ber for Drogheda to declare in his place on the previous evening that the peoposed extension of the franchise in particular boroughs in Ireland would transfer the influence entirely' from the hands of the Protestant to that of the Catholic interest. It would do no such thing—the idea was puerile mad r npngternue : but it would break down all the long and closely cemented trammels and monopolies which bad originated with Cromwell, and Fad been handed down to his successors. Were 'immutable memhers aware of the origin of many of these boroughs ? Were they ignorant that King James the First. in one day, created forty boroughs, not legislating on the necessity of these institutions, but solely because that he had a de. ' sign upon two provinces ; and to complete his purpose, in several places he could scarcely find as many burgesses as would give a colour to his pretence for founding a borough. And these are the venerable institutions that we arc told so roach about. (Hear, hear, and lungliter.) The measure will be a hoon of magnitude to Ireland, even although that it brings not with it ample justice to her claims. (Hear, hear.)— Bed:this is the treatment the most consonant to the purposes of those hon. gentlemen who are so very solicitous to convert the people from the errors ant! superstition, as they arc pleased to term them, of Pa pistry. (The honourable member uttered this last sentence with a pe- , culla strain of irony.) Those hon. gentlemen who had arrayed them.' selves against the measure of the noble lord, were not, in fact, strug gling for their political Menial., but they were contending for their ' property-(loud cries of hear, hear,) the property that they took to', market sold for gain. They had seized the people's right of'', franchise, and now, when the measure was promised that would enforce' the first restitution of those rights, they then turn upon the noble lord opposite, and taunt hint, and those who would support him, with de- sognations ; they call them thieves and tobbers. The hon. member re.' gretted that the hon. member fur Oxford should have expressed the ' hostile opinion that he had done towards the measure, and the view that hn had taken of the subject. There had been times when the Church hail assisted the State, and bad weighed conscientiously the interests of the people. The honourable member could call to mind the record of several illustrious names, and many magnanimous acts that had thus emanated ; and he regretted to see now, in these (lays, that so much prostration of sentiment should envelope one of the most advancing and opulent universities in Europe. (Hear, hear.) But there had been no argument adduced against the measure by the opposition ; they had had nothing but chaff. (Hear, hear.) He would repeat it, nothing hut chaff. (Laughter.) They had been told that the rotten boroughs afforded a desirable facility for the admission of men of talent into the house, and many names had in exultation been cited in confirm,- don of this plea. The name of Mr. Canning had been quoted in uiumpli as one, and much stress was placed on him, because lie ban once entertained an opinion that the Catholics should have emancipa tion ; hut ict those who made this their boast recollect, that with all this liberality on the one hand, that he hail been equally illiberal in his opposition to the rights of the Presbyterians. (Cheers.) Mr. Burle arm another name that had been quoted, and had been received with cheer. He came into the house on pure principles, but he soon swayed round, and became espousal to the high Toty principles, and was ex. travagantly rewarded for his vacillating services. lie (Mr. O'C.) was will assured that if the opposition would give hack to the people the pension which had been pocketed by Mr. Burke, they would cheerfully give them a receip in full for all his splendid talents and abilities—. His epitaph was written long before his death : " Here lies our good Edmund, whose genius was such, We scarcely can praise it, or blame is, too much; Who, born for the universe, narrow'd his mind, And to party gave up what was meant for mankind." (Cheers.) They had been told of all these men of talent coming' in through the rotten borough system ; hut he would auk, would their talents have been lets resplendent had they never been baptized at the' foot of the rotten boroughmongery —(a laugh); and he would ask the ' opposition also if there were not many drowsy-beaded fools that hail come into the house in the same way. The matter reminded hint of the stars that came from the London Theatres to the country—all the minor characters were over looked in the exhibition, and only the Hamlet of tile stet was kept in view ; the Horatio and the Lames, and all the others were shaded in oblivion. It had been urged too by the opposition, that the present system worked well—they told them that it worked , well, and why disturb it? Let them ask the distressed agriculturists. anti see if they would say it worked well. Let them ask some of their' ancient sires, who were still in life, and had lived in better times in the', counuy, and could mark the decline; let them ask theme, and sec if they would say it worked well. Let them go into the county gaols, and ask the starving wretches, convicted of poaching, and now suffer ing from the severity of the game laws that had emanated from the system, let them ask these men and see if they would say it had worked well. In the year 1823 a motion was brought before the house for economy and retrenchment ; and of one class of rotten boroughs, 20 in number, nineteen of the representatives were opposed to the motion of rettenchment, and one for it. Of another class of boroughs, not quite so much on the close system. thirty-three in number, twelve were for retrenchment ; of forty-four representatives. . elected on the more po-1 pular symeno, thirty-sik were for retrenchment, and only eight against' it. The honourable member made a similar brief analysis of the divi sion that had taken place on the Walcheren expedition. for which not' one shilling he said would have been voted had the rotten borough ays. tent not been in existence. This was what was called working well. There existed a debt of B.io millions hanging round the country—that was the sum usually given up, but when everything was properly taken into account, it would be found that the real debt of the country was 11100 millions, and that was called working well. They had been told thee this country prospered, but how hail it tempered ?—whatever prosperity it could boast, it owed entirely to its acquisitions in the bountiful gifts of nature; it had prospered from the progress of its intelligence, from its navigable rivers, its mines and its facilities for trade, and the application of industry, these were the sources irons whence had sprung its internal prosperity, and which had rendered it formidable to its enemies abroad; but see what a mess had the system made of till these advantages. Were England placed in a situation at this moment such as the devoted Poles are now placed, opposed to Russia, there would not be an Englishman whose blood would not be roused to indignation at his fate, but English feeling would in similar circumstances be materially crippled—it was crushed with the weight of this 1000 millions of debt—the consequences of the boroughmongering system. (Hear, hear.) It had worked well indeed for the aristocracy —for Solomon in all his glory was not so fair as they—(a laugh,) they had become bishops and dignitaries of every description, and the expense of their well-being had brought about the debt of 1000 mil. lions. (Hear, hear.) The honourable member had once intended to have said a word more to the house, and to ask the Opposition W they would say that the system worked well for Ireland ? Could they walk the streets, there and encounter the miserable objects, the squalid countenances, the famine that existed, the crowded cellars and misera ble hovels wherein reigned starvation and despair ; would they look at these and say that the system had worked well for Ireland ? But he would not pursue that subject farther, nor would he enter on it as re garded Scotland. The measure be would support ; and to the noble lord who had proposed the measure, and to his Majesty's Ministry, he would say that he would call upon them in the name of that Gott of Charity whotu they all honoured and cherished, to do this great act to the people of Ireland and ltkutland, and they would inherit the rich recompence of the nation's gratitude. The hon. member sat down amidst immense cheering. Mr. ATTWOOD, as well as we could understand, amidst the noise that succeeded the lut speech, expressed his surprise at the cheers that had just subsided, and which had been reiterated front the i inistetial Benches, at the expression of sentiment from the Hon. Member (Mr. O'Connell) who had so recently placed !in danger the peace of the neighbouring country. (Hear.) The lion. Member opposed the measure chiefly on the ground that as numbers had been made the data of the measure, that the division of representatives was not prom ! tionate ; and that as the measure hail been founded on the alleged call ' of the people under excitement, that the same reason might be again assigned in future, so that this could not be a final messute. He con. tended that an assembly purely democratic and popular, had never existed consistently with the security of the hereditary branches of the Legislature.—(Cheers.) This was exemplified at Paris at the present day, where the Deputies, on a measure of theirs being rejected by the Peers, invariably began a discussion as to the utility of an upper house. (Cheers.) He delineated the measure as destructive in the person of the borough proprietor and to the rightsof property. (Cheers.) It was a revolutionary measure—(checre)—an innovation fraught with calm. itics, and incompatible with real liberty.—(Great cheering.) Sir JAM ES DRAMAS' said, that he should not have trespassed upon the house after the arguments of his noble and right honourable friend, had he not been personally alluded to in the course of the debate. and were he not unwilling to allow a question of such magnitude and importance to pass by without offering very shortly his opinions on the subject. In the first place, he should state that he disclaimed the Int. putation of a tight honourable baronet, that ministers sought to shrink from the responsibility of bringing forward the present measure, and to cast some shone of that responsibility on their predecessors. Certainly he had his own private opinion as to the anti-reform policy pursued in the cares of Penryn and East Rctford ; but being sincerely attached to a reform, not slight and inefficient,' but real, searching, and substan tial—(hear, bear , hear)—he did not regret the course then pursued._ But, assuredly, the charge of shrinking from responsibility came with a bad grace from the right honourable baronet, who, abandoning the high ground taken by a noble duke--that the present system was so per• feet that it could not enter into the heart of man to conceive any thing so good—had distinctly stated that some measure of reform was necessary, a measure which he would not bring forward on his own responsibility as a minister, but to which, on being proposed on the responsibility of some other minister—(cheen)—he should, in his individual capacity, be willing to give a reluctant:consent ; and and it was from that right hon. baronet that came the charge:of shrinking from responsibility. There was one responsibility Which he (Sir J. Graham) would never have chosen to incur. He would never have consented to take a share in the administration for a single day without a distinct understanding that, with the united efforts of the Cabinet, a comprehensive reform should be speedily proposed.._ That responsibility, indeed, he, and his colleagues, left to the gentle- men opposite. The Government, he proceeded, considering it loom. silent with their parliamentary duties to seek by half measures. what Mr. Burke would have called miserable expedients, to avert the just expectations of the people, and considering that the delaying of a, just and necessary concession would only cause the &inmate to rise io their demands and proceed from just to unjust claims ; the government be said, acting on these grounds, had thought it their duty to prsta en .' substantial measure, one which would not be a mere redeonrion of thei; pledge, luntent subsequently learnt that mere than a mete redemption was demanded by the public necessity ; and, finally, by prope n e it speedily, to assure a reform moderate and safe. The prewns stnerwould, he was convinced, satisfy all moderate Well. (a,. tempted laughter on the opposition benches.) It would not min e violent ultra Tories, but in his conscience he believeel that it wo e ia satisfy the moderate of all classes. At all events it would remot e lust grounds of complaint, and putting the Government 00 . V. 11111,1 round, would enable them to resist all demands inconsistent with neonarchy, and the institutions of the country. He must adroit t., personal remarks on him (Sir J. Graham). which a risen opposite had made with some asperity, more especially with 1. vett u , the motion relating to the Privy Council, which had been termed one the grounds of the great dissatisfaction in the country. lie did not veal to shrink for a moment tram any responsibility which alight ettace that motion. His conduct on that Fu tIiCCI was bethrc the house and OW public. He had amused the ministry of want of economy in the higher de. partments, and to support his assertion, lie was obliged to move tin a It. turn relating to the Privy Councillors, to show that severe! held mon titan one lucrative office. The right hon. member for Armagh had though. fit to propose as an amendment, a general return t.f all nifi ne . with salaries above 1.0001. and the result was the produetion of Coos. papers which heel camel" such an astounding effect. 11' reepeet t his own salary, on which the right honourable gentleman had ut a d • remark rather unworthy of himself, more especially as he was a mralb,r of the committee on the officers' Whales, he should merely say, that e the homer were not satisfied with the determination of that coturoies. lie (Sir J. Graham) should not defend his salary with the !en:rena l with which the superannuationa of the two sons of cabinet ministers had been defended Iva year. (Hear.) But he willingly turned front thi, subject to the question more immediately before the house. A risir hon, gentleman opposite had contended that the measure tended to dr. prive of their franchise individuals of the lower classes, who veer. cised that franchise advantageously to the country. Now, It was the opinion of Mr. Fox, that the best system of represen.ation les that which called into activity the greatest number of persons whole eircumetances rendered independent and intelligent ; and the most defective, that which called into activity persons whom dint condition reacted dependant and incapable of deliberating. (Hear., With respect to the righteof dealing with the franchises,he shoultiquot. the speech of the right honourable gentleman on the Pentyn questions, which he n looked on the elective fiat chaise as a great public trust. held for the benefit of the people, whu had the power of withdrawing i: ' front those who had violated their trust." The right hug. gentlentee made the power depend on a violation of the trust. lie admitted the; that escape existed with respect to Penryn, but where was it with res. pcct to the forty shilling freeholders, when the Clare election led proved to be emancipated from thialdoiti and corruption. The tiger honourable gentleman had also quoted en that occasion the opinion 4.1 Loud Bacon as to the advantages of removing the elective franchise from the multitude, who were dependant or led by faction, to those classes who paid the taxes, and were more independent and intelligent. The question as to chartered rights had been disallowed even by Mr. Burke; and be maintained thas it was quite clear that the parliament had the power to dispose of the chartered rights, as far as the franchise was concerned, as may be deemed necessary for the public benefit.— He thought the time fur dealing with thou as was now reopened had arrived. With respect to the calculations of the hon. member set Altieborough (mlr. Cruker), he had to remark that 2G boroughs, hay. ins tinder 1,000 inhabitants, returned 30 membets--ball the number elected for Ireland, and more than all Scotland was allowed to return— (Hear. bear.) There were 115 boroughs in England returning mem bers. having most limited population in each. That was a state of re presentation that might be most congenial to hon. members opposite (Mr. ('rokcr and Sir C. 'Wetherell), but was that the repnsereation cantempleted by the constitution ? Property would still have its In fluence ; but those lion. members had almost gone the length of sayieg. that every rich, or very rich man, ought to have a member in that house. The, was not a view of what ought to be the representation, that he imagined would be adopted any where except in the, house.— Did not such facts tonne that tile representation Rapine' correction ? But take the matter in another point of view. There were 111 peer. 'ant, commoners who returned to that house 227 members—more than half the number (421) sent by cities, towns, &c. in England._ There was a still more conspicuous fact. He would not menthe' names—they were however capable of proof at the bar ; 16 Peers returned to that hewn" 70 members. (Loud cries of hear, hear, hear.) Now, was the representation to be that which was identified with, and [ expressed the stotiments and interests of the country ; or ought it to be a representation t !largely iniegled with nominees? If that WM. the Constitution, he had not so read it. Such' representatives were [ accountable to none ; they had no constituents ; they owed no dun [ to them ; they did not look to the people. (Cries of hear, espe. cially front the opposition benches.) There was no impelling in fluence, except that of honour, with such members. (Hear.) Ant! that brought him to what he deemed one of the foulest blots in the state a the representation. Such was the notion of honour towards the borough proprietor, that if his dictate could not be attended to, the seat was intinediately resigned. (Hear, hear.) But where the people were concerned, there was no such high sense of honour, no proffer of resignation if the promises as regarded voting could not be kept. Therefore he approved of the measure, considering that it would give a salutary effect to the influence of the people ; that it would be mere likely to make the house an express image of the opi nions and feelings of the people. Complaint had been made as to the retention of some borough% and the rejection of others. In connecting the evil in the representation, it was requisite to draw the Hoe some. where. Therefore, after examination, the plan had been proposed regarding the boroughs under 2,000 inhabitants, and those between 2,000 and 4,000 inhabitants. It had been asked who drew the line. It was sufficient to answer, that the measure was that of the ministers, and therefore that the ministers had drawn the line. As it wes their act, if it could be shown that they framed a plus for the purpose of retaining or protecting unfair influence, his only reply would be this:—that the ministers bad thereby shown that they were not ooly unfit to hold office, but to have seats in that house, or to mix in the society of gentle men. (Hear, hear.) Reference, however, to the list of boroughs would show that they could tot have been actuated by any such tine oney motive. Caine, Knaresborough, and Tavistock, had been particu. larly mentioned, as if favouritism had been extended to those bo roughs. The line had been drawn at 2,000 population, which was taken as the test--a principle recognised by Mr. Pitt, in his first Reform Bill, and at the Union. Now, what was the fact ? If the line had been drawn so as to exclude Caine, that would have excluded 11 other bo roughs, because there was that number that had population less than Caine. If Knaresborough had been the standard, then there would have been twenty-three more boroughs disfranchised than were now to be disfranchised, because there was that 'mother returning Members with a population lower than that of Knaresborough. Again, if the standard were Tavistock, then there would have been twenty.lite other boroughs reduced, because there was that number with popals non below the amount of population. Thus had the ministers, after having ("lawn the line, struck at those three boroughs, the plan would have disfranchised twenty-five other boroughs, because they were below. the amount of the population of such boroughs. The plan of the nu. nieters was to effect the requisite correction of the representation with the least possible disfranchisement. That they considered they had ac complished. In reply to another argument, as to the amount of thee who contributed to the taxes, it appeared that in the sixty boroughs which were to be disfranchised, there were 1470 holm% rated at 101. sad upwards. Now, in Sheffield, unrepresented Sheffield alone, there were 155 G houses, rated at 101. and upwards, being some one hundred more than were rated in the whole of the said sixty boroughs.-- Again, in the 47 other boroughs, coming within the scale that regarded boroughs having above 2,000, and under 4,000 inhabitants, there were 6,323 houses rated at 101. and upwards ; now in Mary-la-bonne parish Caine, there were 10,421 houses rated at 101. and upwards, being one. third more than the number of houses in the said 47 boeoughs. (Hear.) It was charged that the ministers had caused agitation. The truth was, they were ready to satisfy all just claims—hut they was equally ready to resist whatever was unjust and unreasonable. — (Hear, hear, hear) They considered that it would be prudent and safe to make these concessions. ilbstinate resistance to just demands had too often ended in humiliating concessions. Acting on that Iniowe fact, they had founded this measure—not overlooking the signs of th e times, and not allowing themselves to be overborne by them, the Sims ters had felt it to be their duty towards the country to bring forward the maneure.—(Cheers.) Sir it. PEEL was sure the house would not be surprised at the anxiety he felt, after what had fallen from the right hon. baronet w ake, to explain. He knew he had no right to say a single word in re• ply, for he had been heard with great indulgence and at great length on a former evening, and he had also contributed his share to the debate et that night. The right hon. baronet had accused him of personal perity. He trusted he was not generally open to such a charge; bat ;the question in these matters was, who was the that to introduce crimple. tory expressions? The right hon. baronet had accused him of being enamoured of potwalloppers. Now he had never said that he was enamoured of potwalloppers, and if the option lay between 101. free• holders and potwalloppers, be might perhaps prefer the 101. voters; but be objected to the disfranchisement of the potwalloppers and the scot-aid-lot voters, because that would destroy the existing links be tween the lower and the higher ranks. The right hon. baronet had al luded to him as being inclined to obstruct the Government, but he could 0040 Te the right bon. barest that it would be impossible tae him to take any pan in any dams se obstruct the Government. Ht considered himself to have as moth right to act on his own convicuee what would be the result of the rejection of the present measure as the hon. gentlemen opposite did viten they opposed the proposition of IN noble lord (Blandford) last yew, and now showed no disposition to accede to the wishes of the petitioners to that house, with regard to she ballot. Mr. T. LiritOli mid, it might be missed, from the language of the right honourable baronet (Sir James Graham,) who bed stilted that we of the ratases kissing the room mason balms the house was likiltenw It phi" TM& Ile - and bb bed mods to their gove all4lll4loo imams, dtb: dtil libtg, sad 101 31"srch required 4 aNynlgedlagned had 01 i • ;, ~,;.: ~~,,./ „~