Star. — London, England, 1831-10-06 00:00:00

at ii.' 53.1 , t time he was bound to say, that he had perfect con:.sl •ev 1-$ ti e good sense of the people of the country, ts,.sa v hoot he feared nothing of a revolutionary nature, or •.i.i occasion danger to the government or establish ments of the country ; bur he Was afraid of danger arising from the revolutionary measures proposed and introduced by the eovernment itself, (cheering from the opposition.) — Ale believed history would bear him out in the assertion. moat there never was any great change or revolution effected in she cnan.ry at any time which had not, like the present, be. n prope•ed by the Government, nod carried through by ti,- it:Pueoce of the Crown. (Hear.) He entreated noble to resat this measure, and do all in the just exercise of In it pnwtr to defeat it, trusting to the good sense of the it , ear t •.1 the country. ((Tear.) Vie Earl of CA RI.IfsLE wished to ask the noble duke $-$ ;.e- if the p'tormation of the Church of England, and war trvolotion cf 11i38 were the changes to which that noble dt.lte all id: el ? He ( Earl Carlisle) knew of no other in his. t.:ry that thd reference to this country but these. The eyes of tie whole nation were on their lordships. and he called upon them to abs•ain from all language likely to be con stood into that of irtimillatior. The Earl of HADDINGTON said a few words in ex planation. The Earl of WI NC 111 LSEA supported the consistency and sir:eerily of the noble duke (Wellington) regarding the measure of Catholic Emancipation ; he neither crept into nor maintained office by any sacrifice of either. Toe noble earl then alluded to his statements in his place in the house the previous night respecting the slanders against an illus. trititts lady repeating the same assertions in reference thereto with great vehemence of manner. He was of opinion That noble lords opposite had their principles maintained by popular clamour.—(Hear.) Lord HOLLAND, in explanation, said, he had not insi. nuated that the noble duke held office by any change of opinion, and still less that he crept into office by such means. He meant to imply that be (Lord Holland) might be des tined to ace that noble duke change his opinion on the pre. sent question as on a former one of great importance.— ( Hear.) Earl GREY said, he did not feel anxious to prolong the debate. He did not blame the noble earl (Winchilsea) or any other man for animadverting on his public conduct ; but the noble earl went further; he called the present measure revolutionary, and calculated to subvert the constitution of the country; and stated that his opinions were maintained by popular clamour : such averments were againt parliamentary usage, and he called upon the Male earl to state precisely ltis meaning. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM rose to explain amidst loud calls of t' Let Earl Winchilsea explain." Earl WINCHILSEA said he had the greatest respect for the consistency of the noble earl's political life ; he meant nothing offensive in the words he used ; he never intended to irsinunte that the noble earl would sacrifice principles to place —he believed the noble earl to be the last man in their lord ships house who would retract his words or principles. Earl GREY replied, that the noble earl opposite had a right to arraign his ( Earl Grey's) public conduct, and ex. pressed himself satisfied with the explanation. Lord HOLLAND then presented a reform petition from Aldgate Ward ; and another signed by 100 persons in Bond. street. (Laughter.) I Lord %Y H AIINCLI FEE still repeated, that he believed the tradesmen of Bond-street and other places had a fear of the Bill. _ _ . Lord HOLDAND.—Perhaps the noble lord will men tion the particular streets. for Bond-street could not be one of them. _ _ _ _ The Earl of MULORAVE said, If the noble lord (Whameliffe) were to perambulate elsewhere, he would find that the people had not grown cool on Reform. bordWIIARNCIIFFE never sold the people were cool err the question of Reform, though they were opposed to the Bill. . . The Marquis of WESTMINSTER, amidst much cla. ir, our, rose to present a Reform petition. ORDER OF DAT. The LORD CHANCELLOR put the question, that the order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate on the Reform question be now read. The Clerk having read it from the table, Viscount GODERICH and Earl DUDLEY rose at the same time, amidst loud calls for both; the former, however, gave way to Earl DUDLEY.—The noble Earl addressed the house In so low a tone of voice that many of his opening sentences were wholly unheard below the bar; as soon as he became distinctly audible he said, that the present measure would effect an entire change in the settled institutions of the countty—there would be a change in the law of the land, and in the patronage of the Crown, as well as in the composition of the House of Commons, hitt was now the most im portant branch of the state—all would be lost. Never was there such as enormous change proposed. Noble Lords were called upon to stigmatise the valued institutions of their forefathers —( Hear, hear.) Was it not extraordi nary that a Government which could not gain the con. fidence of Parliament for any one measure of finance the alteration of a tax on the regulation of the timber duties—was to be entrusted with a measure for the complete change of the Constitution, to alter it from monarchical to democratic?—(Cheers.) If this Bill were to be carried, it would be to say that this country never had possessed a good government, that the people had always been deprived of their rights (hear.) Did this bill stand on right or on expediency ? As to the right, where was the peculiar right of the 101. householder over the one who had a house at a less rent ?. If the inherent right were ad. mitted, why stop at the 101. householder ? Had the right any juster foundation than the delusion and outcry that the country had been impoverished by the •• boroughmongers." (hear, and a laugh.) The people had been duped with the notion that the Reform Bill would produce some practical benefit ; that trade would flourish ; that wages would be higher; and that bread would be cheaper. These were held out as s hat would result from Parliamentary Re. form, and hence the present outcry for it. (Loud cheers.) Such were the false reasonings of those who called for reform—of the logicians and philosophers of Birmingham ; but logic and philosophy, such as were there displayed, had hale to do with these matters. If ties mi asate were carried, the Government would be ex. posed to the caprice of every popular gale. In such a state of things there could net be good and steady Government; to etten:pc it would be making bricks without the straw. Ile declared that if there were such a popular assembly as this Bill contest fated, the Crown and Aristocracy could nor stand against tt. (Cheers.) He knew what the theory of the Constitution said, according to the reading of sonic; but with such a popular assembly, no Government could stand except it bowed to popular feelings, and then what would become of the Crowe and the Aristocracy? Wbat provis:on did the bill brake for the Ministers to hive seats ? None !—They whe held places must pay court to a great many persons before they Gould get re turned to Parhaneint ; and what chance of return bad they, if they happened to be opposed to what were termed popular measures? (Hear, hear.) What were their lordships called on even now to do? To destroy those insti tutione in the admiration of which they had all been brought up. Ought not the results ot rash proceedings in neigh. housing counties to teach them to beware how the meddled with institutions that had lasted so long, and to which they looked back with so much affection and pride ? (Cheers.) — They had the undoubted right to reject this bill, if they thought it prejudicial to the country; and were they to be exposed to the indignation of the country if they performed that duty ? But even if such were to be the result, ought they not to be prepared to exposed themselves to that danger, rather than endure so destructive so levelling a treasure ?—: ( Hear.) Were they to sit there merely to register the edicts , of another assembly ? (Hear.) Every reasonable man, however, he was ready to declare. saw that some change must take place ; but it did not follow that they were to consent to 411 awe( ping and destructive a measure as that sow presented, and which ' was to be forced on them by threats, delusions, and intoxication. (Hear, hear.) He could not believe t bat such a bill ought to pass, nor that the fatal consequences anticipated by some would result from rejecting it. (Beer.) The Marquis of LA NsDOWNE said, that before stating his reasons for concurring in the bill, he would make some observations on what h ad fallen from those who opposed it. In the first place, he could not allow the Noble Lord (Ward), who last spoke, to rest his opposition to the minister's bill on the grouid that all their financial measures had failed, and, tiuretort, that they bad not, and (mild not, deserve the con. titlence ot the House 'and the country. The fact was not so; arid bad the Noble Lord been as listening wile had been an attentive menthes, he wbald have known that the fact was not what he asserted it to be. What 1 had none of the mea sures experienced *the confidence, and received the sanction of the Parliament ? What said the Noble Lord to the dicinguisbed museum of law 011orm that had been brought forward ? Had they not risoN that House eves without a division ? Lad DUDLEY and WARD.—I limited my observa tion to the financial measume dOeMernineut., as The Marquis of LANSDOWNE did not know how the noble lord could say be had limited himself to the financial measures of Government, since he bad charged all the men. MITTS of the present Administration with being of a destruc tive and subversive character. (Hear.) That was the charge, and yet they had passed the bankruptcy court bill and the lunatic bill, the measures of those who were changing and subverting every thing without consideration. (Hear.) But as to the specific or corrected charge—had all their financial measures failed ? Had the noble lord been present, and if present, was he swore that they had sanctioned the coal bill, the wine duties bill, and the measure altering the whole system of the cotton trade ? If he knew that those mea sures had received the sanction of Parliament, did he also know that the last-mentioned bill in particular had had the effect of vivifying the cotton trade of Manchester and of the north of Ireland ? So that he would take the liberty of saying with respect to the financial measures alone the ministers had been successful to an extent that warranted them to claim the confidence of the parliament respecting other measures that they might propose. lie was afraid that the speech which had just been uttered had been kept too long. (a laugh) If delivered at all, it ought to have been deli weed before those measures had passed ; to deliver it now, and talk of failures of the ministers measures, those roes surest having passed with unanimous voice, was, to say the least of it, somewhat out of time. But the noble lord had discovered a new reason for not listening to this bill,namely, that it resulted from paying too much attention to the phi. losophers of Birmingham. Why, only a year ago, the no ble lord bad himself tried to create one of these philosophers, but,.unfortunately, he had failed. The noble lord, on the East Retford question, had contended with great earnest. ness that it was of the utmost importance to transfer the East Retford franchise to Birmingham. (Hear, hoar.)— ' The Noble Lord had adverted to the evils of popular elec tion, and of the dangers to be apprehended even to distin. guished men when their popularity had failed ; and curiously enough the coalition of 1782 tree referred to, the Noble Lord (who was exceedingly well read in history) intimating that in consequence of such coalition, the parties to it became as unpopular as the anthreformeis now were, and that it occa sioned Mr. Fox to lose Westminster. Now, how was the fact ? Why, so far from losing Westminster, Mr. Fox was re-elected after that coalition, giving signal proof that the gratitude of the country would continue with a man, whose public services, or patriotic sentiments, had attracted atten tion I ( Hear.) It was a great argument with the noble lord. and, indeed, with many other noble lords, that the Ministers' Bill would overturn the existing institutions of the coun try, and destroy what had been so carefully tran emitted by their ancestors. The speeches of noble lords— particularly of a noble Earl ( Harrowby) last night—had dwelt on the sentiments and speeches of those on former oc casions who now supported the bill. If he were to pursue that course, he could make as good a speech as it was possi ble for him to make. Out of the small portion of the speeches already delivered on this question that really applied to the bill, a very great proportion was in favour of the principle of the bill ; and if he were to select that proportion—if he were to notice the concessions to expose the inconsistencies, and to bring for ward the admissions even of all the lords who had professedly opposed the bill, he should be able to deliver a most excellent speech in favour of the bill. But he did not wish to pursue any such course, though he could not avoid remarking, that the inconsistencies showed the weak ness of opposition, and the attemps to concert opposition the impossibility to accomplish concert. He would, however, particularize so fat as to remark that all admitted that the current of public opinion on the question of parliamentary reform was very strong—(hear). He sou ready to admit that changes were evils in themselves, and only justified by the progress of events, and the wants of civilisation; and he was ready also to admit that nothing could be safe except property gave a *rutin degree of influence. But there was one inference that bad been drawn, namely, that the cha racter of our institutions was remarkable for offering rigid resistance to changes—that be must most resolutely deny. He had not so read the history of the changes that had taken place in this country ; he had read it very differently. What said the laws affecting the reformation? What said the laws re jeaing the monarchy of the Stuarts? What the laws altering the suceession,and securing it in the House of Hanover ? What said the laws uniting England and Scotland, and afterwards Ireland to Great Britain ? And, lastly, though it was in ferior In Importance to none of the instances preadin it, what said the laws introduced by the Noble Duke (We . i f iret ton) regarding the Catholic claims, and the alteration of constituency of Ireland ? (Hear.) Where, in those 'Ms. stances, did they discover that it was the character of the in stitutions of this country to offer the most rigid resistance to changes in the practice of the Constitution ?g(Hear.) Oa the contrary, as he read out history, to secure the institu tions of the country, to meet public opinion, to concede to the wants of improved civilization, the laws had been made to7bend—to break, if they liked the word better—before the:just demand of circumstances. (Hear, hear.) There fore. so far from the character of our institutions haying offered rigid resistance to change, its character was that it had met the demands of circumstances, and thus secured our institutions. As he had heretofore intimated, be thought their efforts ought to be to absorb and gather round the Constitution all the strength and knowledge of the country. (Hear.) By this measure be contended that this object would be accomplished ; the people who had be come better judges of their own interests, would be more strongly identified with the institutions ; and if this mea sure had not the virtue of being calculated to absorb and gather all the strength and knowledge of the country, to the support of the state, it would not have the virtue which be deemed it to possess. And if that object were not accom plished, the institutions, instead of descending magoifi. cently as they had hi.herto done, would fall and leave not a wreck of their former renown and power. By timely listening to the requisite, this calamity would be avate& With that feeling he had heard with great regret the Noble Duke's declaration against all Reform; and he had heard his recent explanation of the language with at least equal surprise. the Noble Duke had told their lordships that in using such language he spoke as a Minister of the Crown ; that is fact he had felt himself to be in such a situaLion that (whatever might be his own personal views on the subject), as the Minister of the Crewe he felt it incumbent on him to oppose all reform ; from the Noble Duke's character, he should not have expected the adoption of such a course; and the more especially after the comae he pursued on the Catholic question. He (Lord L.) bid never before come forward as a parliamentary reformer, lee cause he had always thought that if reform were brought I forward, it could be safely brought forward only by a Minister of the Crown. By that course being pursued, be should know exactly what it was proposed to alter ; but that course not having been pursued, he fled not had the opportunity till now of stating his opi. nions on reform. Therefore bad he abstained from de ' daring his opinion on reform. And what the Noble Duke (Wellington) had declared on thetCatholic question, confirm. ed himjin the conviction of the propriety of his course. On that occasion the noble duke reminded them that he had been solicited by the late Lord Castlereagh to join in bringing for ward a Catholic Bill, and that he had declined to jom in sucn a mature until it should have the unction of the King's authority. That decision of the noble duke he thought a wise one; but why sou the principle of it not allowed to be applied to this bill ? Here were the tables turned upon then,. On the reform question a minister of the town was not to meddle with any bill to effect it, even though such Reform Bill were presented to Parliament with the approbation of the Sovereign. (Hear.) He could see no ground for this difference. (Hear.) But here was the bill, and though it was opposed, ail the opponents of it had ad. milted the necessity of some reform. He begged pardon, there was one exception on the first night, in the instance of a noble earl (Mansfield). It sou true they had proceeded with great caution ; sometimes making a step forward, then making one backwards; but nevertheless, all saw some ground for moving—(hear), with the exception before made. (Hear.) If they had any plan of reform, if amongst them they could give it shape, ta Which shape hath none distinguishable; if in the ;messes of their minds there lurked any plan that would be better than the one now proposed, as they had so much complained of it, while they admitted the justice and necessity of some Reform, he thought the people of England would have just right to complain of them, for having allowed six months to elapse, and the much abused dissolution to take plate, without even yet having brought forward their nostrum. ( Hear from the Marquis of Londonderry.) He was glad that the noble marquis said " hear," because be , no doubt was going to tell them what his nostrum is. (Loud laughter.) He repeated, that this was not fair conduct towards the country ; it was op peeing Reform, yet admitting she netwasity of Reform Leo that if the bill were rejected, the people would not know in what their saksy consisted. (Hear. beer.) All they knew was, that &wain noble Ards had a something better than this bill that would be for the benefit of the people ; but what that something better was. Wither the people nor the Parliament w allowed to knew: The ministers bad em barked on the voyage, but not Wilmot a due sense of the perils to which they exposed themselves; but still, regard less of diMeulties to themselves, they had engaged in it. Certain noble lords had also embarked, and were dropping down to St. Helen's, to join in the voyage, if they thought it expedient. (Cheers and laughter.) If they thought that those who now came forward, to attempt a cure, (wherever they admitted there was complaint) were impostors and empiries, it was rather hard towards the country to allow them to put off their bad wares and poisons. (Cheers and laughter.) Those who thought themselves, by prescription, the state physicians, would not prescribe, would not let them know what ought to be administered, so that there was no remedy but to have recourse to the quackery of the noble earl (Grey.) (Loud cheers and laughter.) They were all moved by the necessity of the ease—all, with one exception. He begged pardon, there was not occasion for that exception, for the noble lord (Mansfield) had admitted that he would reform something—the bribery at elections. The Earl of MANSFIELD.—Oh no, I consented to no reform about bribery. (Much cheering and laughter.) The Marquis of LANSDOWNE begged pardon. He thought the noble earl had aaid something about bribery, and his willingness to do something to correct the comp. tion and expense which It occasioned ; but he now under. stood that the noble earl intended to do nothing. (Much cheering and laughter.) Others would do something— what they would do they would not condescend to tell, but something they would do--while the noble earl stood alone, and would do nothing. The noble duke, however, found the Scotch representation to be perfect. The Duke of WE LLINGTON.—Oh ! I said nothing about the Scotch representation. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE.—The noble duke spoke of Scotland as being the most coulees and best go verned country. The Duke of WELLINGTON.—Yes; but I excluded the represtntation. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was glad to hear the exception. He admitted the superiority of Scotland—the merit of Edinburgh—and the enterprise of Glasgow, whose steam-vessels covered the Clyde. . Lord KLLENBOBOUGH made some observation across the house, but what it was we could not collect. It appeared to be some intimation, that even those steam. vessels now praised were to have been the subject of taxation. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE resumed. The noble lord, it appeared, merely desired to add a supplement to the noble Lord's (Dudley and Ward's) statement respecting the financial measures of the ministers. (Hear, and a laugh.) But with respect to Scotland, would any one tell him that its eminence resulted from the existence of superiorities ? (Hear, hear, hear.) Noble lords had expressed alum at the extension of popular representation, and one noble lord had, on a fonner evening, selected the instances of Dublin and Liverpool, in confirmation of the apprehension. The Noble Lord had the misfortune to select these two In stances, but what was the fact ? The corruption in these in. stances bad been brought to light, but it was proved that the corruption attached to the freemen of Dublin and Liverpool, which it was the object of this Bill to deprive of the power they abused, by giving the elective franchise to house. holders. (Hear.) [Lord Hsrrowby said across the table some of the freeholders also were corrupt.] He to assure the Noble Lord that in Liverpool the corru b pr i was all with the freemen. There was something curious is the circumstances of Liverpool respecting the franchise. Almost all of the most respectable householders were ex cluded from voting. Of 2,400 householders qualified to serve on juries, only 60 were electors.—(Heat, hear.) Mr. Itosco's sons had not votes, but his gardener bad_(hear, hear). Was he to be told in defence of such a system, that his sons were liable to be guilty of corruption, but his gardener was not ?—(hear, hear.) The noble earl had blamed the framers of the measure, for not having suelci. 'tidy attended to what might be called its conjectural one. , and argued that the new constituency created by the rcelg wou ld put an end to taxation and the payment of the na tional debt. He wished the noble earl to consider who the 101. householders were. He held in his hand a paper which would illustrate what would be the state of the constituency under the bill. It was a return of the number of accounts kept at die bank fur the payment of dividends, by which it ap peared that the whole number was 274,823, of which 264,01911 were less than 2001. a year. He would ask was there not a probability almost amounting to a certainty that these 264,668 fundholders would compose a great portion of that constituency ? (Hear.) What then became of the ergs ment that they would say to their representatives, "you may do what you will in all other matters, but take especial can that our dividends are not paid." (Great cheering and laugh. ter.) It' we. just as if the noble earl, in the management of his piivate affairs, was to say to his agent, you may do what you will with my estate so that you take care that no tents are paid. (Continued laughter.) The noble duke said the 101. electoreiwould be. open to corruption ; but he forgot that all housekeepers were Included above IUL so that there would be housekeepers of 10,0001. as well as of 101.— [The Duke of Wellington said the term he used was com. hination.] There would be no greater facilities under the Bill for combinations amongst 101. householders than amongst the electors at present ; in most of the towns the majority of the electors would be householders above 101.— The noble duke had described the rise and history of the *nand for reform, the greatest part of which he attributed le the events that took place in France io the month of July. He disputed that position. (Hear.) The desire for :dorm was growing for many years, even long before the American war, and it had ever since been acquiring steingth. (Hear.) It was in the nature of things that such la feeling should not make progress with perfect rep= but that it should advance by slow, uncertain, and degrees. Bacon bad well said of men and things they were ir regu larly towards their places, but regularly when in their places (hear, hear.) What their attention ought to be called to, as Statesmen, was the of opinion and feeling. When it was said the &M i te reform erase from the events of July in France, it me only saying the danger was not in the gunpowdie, bat in the match (Hear, hear.) When the danger was issolos• ing for years, and always ready to be called into seeleity, there would be w Wet! but in removing the cause. (User.) To the real principle of the bill every noble lord opposite bad more or less implied assent. He should abstain from entering into the details, though it was the policy of the other side to avoid the principle. The principle of the bill was the extinction of nomination boroughs—the extension of political influence to the middle classes, and to glee the right of voting in counties to every landholdee, instead of confining it to one class. These were the prin ciples of the bill, all the rest were details, on which he was confident it was as much the wish of his noble friend as It was his own, that their lordships should exercise their un doubted right of deliberation. If he could have supposed his noble friend capable of wishing to deny to that hoax the full exercise of their privileges, he should not fail to ex. press his difference of opinion, first .in private, and, if ne cessary, in public. (Hear, hear.) Because, though he did not wish that house to possess the power of corrupting the other house of parliament, he would contend for the rilb leges derived from their ancestors of calmly and deliberately diaeussing and deciding on every measure of legislation before it should become the law of the land. (Hear.) In ad. &don to the other objections to the measure it was said it would affect the future existence of their lordships' house. Dot when they ehould pass the bill into a law, notwithstanding the assumption of the noble lord, there would be no one tonstitutional privilege attached to that house deteribed by any lawyer, or claimed - by any outdoes, that 'meld not remain in full vigour. (Hear.) That house would only be deprived by the bill of a corrupt share in the abuses of the other house ;of Parliament. (Hear.) . It was asked, what would that house do when in collision with the other house ? He would say, they should stand on the strength of public opinion, which they would find a much safer support than the weakness of corruption. Those who asked this question supposed that the public opinion might be opposed to what the wisdom of their Lordships might deem public policy ; but if they were unsafe in supporting their opinions in that house, was it in the rotten outworks of (*Eton and Old Sarum they wirtild find security ? (Great cheering.) Did not the people see through the flimsy guise that sought to conceal dependence on corruption.— ( Hear.) It was from that constitution that lived in the hearts of the people--it was in the exercise of those coned. tutional privileges that the people revered, that their lord ships derived the power to maintain their opinions, but not from a system founded on the evasion of law—the violation of justice and liberty. (Hear, hear.) That was not a sys. tern on which noble lords ought to trust for the preservation of their privileges. His hope was to transmit to posterity, for the benefit of the public, those honours and privileges be inherited from his ancestors, as useful is the state of society in which we live for the preservation of liberty and property. Re hopedibe need net add that it was far from being his with that their Lordships, in the decision they should ears to, should be isflueneed by threats:—if throats were rarta would be treated with disdain g. but their 414111110 be was confident would not be tassisbaiVlimmi fir the opinions and f the potpie. ( They had by useful taproom' the gog=solsa knowledge of the country; and they would not refuse to their own posterity the privileges themselves enjoyed. (Hear, bear. After having opened so many new streams of thought and feeling, he would not believe that they would seek to confine than in narrower channels than before; but rather that they would prepare for that diffusion of knowledge and industry, which it we, the policy of their lordships to incor porate with the free Institution of the country.—(The no. We lord sat down amidst the loudest cheering.) The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said the noble marquis had called on him to propose a nostrum. He did not understand that call. He did not pretend to the talents of the noble marquis but thought he was entitled to state his opinion on that Important measure. He had listened with great attention to the noble marquis, but did not think he had answered one single syllable of what was said at his side of the house. The noble earl In his able speech tore the bill to pieces, and the noble marquis had not been able to put it together again. (Laughter.) The noble marquis, at the close of his speech, bad at. tempted to make a defence for the noble earl, by saying the bill might be discussed in the committee; but it was to be recollected that the noble earl said, that he would stand or fill by the bill, or something as ef fective as the bill ; and what could be as effective as the bill but the bill itself? ( a laugh.) He would not go into the details of the bill—that had been done unanswerably. He thought that the bill was unjust, unconstitutional, and un principled. It was unjust, because it robbed men of their vested rights; it was unconstitutional because it subverted every institution of the country ; and it was unprincipled be cause if noble lords followed the course of the debates in the other house, they would find its object was to make Whig. gism supreme in the country. If they bad attended to what was stated respecting the counties of Northumberland, Dur ham, and Cumberland, they would see where the Influence was placed. He would mention what occurred to him self. The non-resident freemen of Durham were of course prohibited voting by the bill, unless they resided within 7 miles ; now all the freemen of a noble lord in the ministry resided within 7 miles ; but all his freemen were nine miles distant.—(Loud laughter.) When the noble earl talked of the wisdom of concession , and the necessity of conceding in time, he should remember what be had said on the Catholic Question; he said if they had conceded in time the mis chiefs would not arise, and that his opinion was, the whole should be given at once. Did he now give the whole to the Radicals ? Was there not universal suffrage and vote by ballot behind ?—Cries of No, no, from the ministerial benches.) He might depend when the Radicals establish themselves in power, they must have both—(hear, hear.) The Irish did not say one word now about the repeal of the Union—they were too ingenious; but when the bill was passed they would demand it—(hear). The bill was nothing more nor less than delivering over that country to the power of the Catholics. By the 104 qualification the lowest Ca tholics would become voters and return 72 members to the other House of Parliament. This was of vital importance to the Protestant interest, and he felt it strongly as an Irish man. The noble earl disclaimed making peers to incrense his power in that house in a strain that did him infinite honour • but he thought it unconstitutional that individuals who vot ed for the bill in the other House of Parliament, should vote for it again in that house; and he appealed to their honour and feeling whether they would be doing their duty by giving a double vote. He hailed what fell from the noble earl, and hoped the Lord Grey, who stood up for his order in that house, would not turn ba_e l k and become worse than Charles Grey the reformer. (Much laughter.) This country had passed through many dangers by the effusion of blood and expenditure of treasure ; but still it was the same England ; and Goo forbid they should risk Ice safety by such a measure as the present. The Noble Earl, when he spoke of the measure before it was intro duced, said It would be moderate; but he had lost his moderation, and was surrounded by radical reformers.— The King's name should not be introduced, because he could give no opinion till it was presented to him for his acceptance. When they united the King's name with Radical Reform, they assailed the vitals of the Constitution; and they finished by bringing in a Bill that would over throw the Constitution, as Neckar had done in France , by concession, which brought Louis to the Happily we had ;then a George the Third, and a Pitt, who saved the country. (Hear hear, Jaen.) Would the Noble Earl become the Necka r of England, and rally all the democracy of the country in the support of his government, He was sure that he would not. He offered his humble. but earnest prayer to Ministers, to weigh well the course they were pursuing. Though the Noble Lord deprecated menace—was there no menace in saying he would stand or fall by the bill ; and in his caution to the bench of Bishops ? How dare be doubt that the Rev. Bench would not act from a sense of honour and duty. Foe himself be would give his decided vote against the bill, in the certainty that be was supporting the cause of the people—et the country—and his GOD. (Hear.) Lord Goderich and Lord Melrose rose at the same ma meat, and each were loudly called for by their respective sides of the House. The Duke of RICHMOND rose and put it to the can dour the House, whether it was not right that both sides should be heard. He thought, when a measure of such im portance was before the House, they should allow one of t h e responsible advisers of the measure to be beard. (Hear.) Lord DIRLROSH gave way. Lord GODRRICH said be bad abstained from all inci dental discussion, because be concurred in what appeared to be the unanimous feeling of the house, that the bill should be discussed with calmness and delibe ration. (Hear. hear.) If be had the feelings of a man, it was impossible that he should not wish to be beard after what the noble earl had said last night, that those who bad brought forward the measure had been guilty of a crime of which be might be doomed to pay the penalty. He did not plead guilty to that charge. (Hear, hear.) In endeavouring to settle a gre at question, long in a succor agitation, he felt that be had dupe nothing to m disgrace himself—nothing inconsistent with Mu duty as aor a peer of parliament. (Hear, hew.) The noble earl ch arged on those who brought forward she. measure all the excitement that existed, and said, bet for them it would be a transient feeling. If that were a just statement they might be charged with the crime imputed, but be bad formed a most erroneous opinion who thought the delay of a few months could have changed the public feeling. (Hear.) The feeling had been growing upwards of fifty years, and bad even then been introduced into the House of Commons without much disfavour.--ARer that, events occurred which rendered men indisposed to change. It was a question which, from its nature, though it might slumber, could not sleep, and there was something in men's minds that made its extinction impossible. (Hear.) The French Revolution made it unpopular, bat circum stances occurred, that brought this country into a state that was unnatural, and in the midst of the glories that wets completed by the triumph of Waterloo, there were alarm. ing .symptoms of the instability of the state of things pre. duced by the long war in which we had been sap gth. There was not a single interest in the country that did ass feel recurring depression. He did not say that the consieska was just, that all this was owing to the videos sepesseata. don of the people in the House of Commons. He considered it a libel to say that the Constitution ear osier that vicious representation was not capable at ellisetleg great good ; but it was not woodeefol that masses of the people who suffered from changes end semen should loskifor the cause in that state of t h e nprosensades. When came men naturally expected many of ssridt the war had deprived them. That preyed raja a thistaken ever. taboo. The quad's of memo bed 4 jotobameter all the elements of progression, and boot :Iva egabliag that it had gro wn to an importance that all must be dealt with, and not in the way of perpetual rejection. Had nothing occurred with regard to the question itself, calculated to increase that impression ? In former times the moo. moos practice of buying and selling seats in the House of Commons was unknown. The first mention of it was in a letter of Lord Chesterfield's and then it was covered with !Unfair ; but as length it was avowed, and became as notorious as the sun at nooo.day, and defended as the beat mode of bringing independent men into Par liament, and he had head it latWd as the best part of the representative system,which it was their duty to support for the preservation of the constitution,and especially the House of Peers. But an Act of Parliament was passed in which it was declared to be inameistout with the law and constitution I of England. Good UoD, shalt had been so described by a solemn dklaration of the legislature; and it was notorious that it was still persisted in. Was it possible that the people could remain in a state of contentment ands:such a system? The noble Ibrd proceeded to say, that it might be said dial tbe people of England could not judge ; bet the tr , would judge, and they would assert their holing whatever was In practice ought to be decided by virtue.— Tbe noble Ned went on so theists, that ail the the bill es and pudie. He did not to:s P = N! wrimpshuss.sepseted Worlds.' maid be signed, that they 1 , 6101114111111111/ say polodple—it was Deeemegy to I ". Nee 1= SO bf dim adidasi that is bad bees NY lo Ibis shoy bad tabos popolados, aad dot Noe Mew& a that memo doubles 1111.11suposemados, but be denied that they had taken populadon alone for data, for they had coupled it with taxation, reckoning oc u : sawed taxes. He could not conceive by what other rule n ut could proceed. He knew that it might be said it wa d I , advantage to have the younger branches, the sons of initiated in the subtleties of politics in other plscca, but thr system had been carried to extremity; and he procretki mention mound's—Cumberland, York, Lancashire, - • . . mud edhire.4lise had been for a long time r ' and L . epresented hp the aline eese citeihsin st the a p:efe they wh n o ow he had ld th i e n co in n a t ll e en mp l a o ti v o er n v gl . piths (h ers ) — and whatever might be urged 0 :-, doe eostrary, et interest of the colonies and others b,in • nesleeted, he entertained no doubt that representatn e ; of talents he all interests would easily find their way ht, Cb the house as representatives of towns or boroughs. (11,;,,.) We bad been told that the measure was something vt:v shocking, but he would ask them what wu the practice they sought to remove—if it was not that it had been the cult„ 1 to give every freeman something for voting. The noble lord here recounted an anecdote when he had endeavoured to negotiate an election for a friend, and because he refust.l to pay this description of offence his election seemed doubt. ful, and he retired without an attempt. They had bets taunted with the measure being a revolutionary measure, eel it had been said that the noble earl who introduced the hi:; had wished to make himself a Neeku t he hoped not ; but let those who referred to the French revolution recollect shy. had led to it. Those who said that it was owing to any a(: of Neckar's must be grossly ignorant of the French—there volution of France had originated in a degraded nobility mil an enslaved people. (Cheers.) If they referred to history they would find that institutions had always conformed t, , times. The noble lord concluded with declaring that the bill should have his most ample support, and that in iz doing he had acted upon mature deliberation to serve the country that be loved. Lord HA DDINGTON believed that a desire for reform had long been stifled in the public mind, but he also be. lieved that the main excitement had been occasioned by the introduction of the present measure. Those who had ob. jected to the second reading of the bill Ind been denounced as being hostile to all reform, and upon the same principle it might be said that Radical Reformers would object to the bill, because it was not enough. Last night they had been taunted with being no Reformers, bit that night they bad been taunted with something different—they had been taunted with being all Reformers. He said that they were all ready to acknowledge that so me Reform was ne. ' cessary, but then it must be something within the bounds of the Constitution, and which this bill did not provide ; it was a mischievous measure. It had been urged as a ne. camity for the extension of representation, that the people had increased, and yet the first provision of the bill was the disfranchisement of boroughs. The noble lord went into a long disquisition to prove that the avowed data had no t been adhered to in apportioning the number of represer. tethers to the number of constituents, and alluded to the spirit which was gaining ground in the oountry,who would, like Birmingham, perhaps refuse to pay taxes. The noble lord, atter entering at great length on the general prineiplei of the bill, of which he expressed in strong terms his disap. proval, said that those on his side of the house had been taunted because they had brought forward no measure of reform of their own, but said although they bad not dune so, they were satisfied that some change was necessary, as they could not long go on as they were doing; yet they could not sanction so sweeping a measure as that pc°. posed. After alluding to the declared opinions of Mr. Canning on the subject of reform in the representation, the noble earl animadverted on the vote given by Mr. Hut. Meson, who said he should remain an enemy to reform In Parliament on a general and theoretical plan, which would either substitute the evils of democracy of despotism.— The noble earl concurred in these opinions, and passing events more sad more strongly rivetted them on his mind. (Dear, hear.) Of all the delusions which able and ex. perienced men ever allowed to be practised on themselves the present was the most enormous; there was no final resting place to the measure ; the ten-pounders which had been admitted to'the rights of franchise would prevent that until the Monarchy and all the settled institutions of the country were destroyed. He never could forget the im. pression which was made by the production of the present BR • be was sure that Tory, Ultra Tory, Whig, and Ra. dial, were equally dissatisfied ; he had met with very few of them who were satisfied with it, even amongst those who were in the habit of supporting Ministers. Noble Lords ought to let the matter stand over. He sou certain that the speeches in another place as well as the speeches of Noble Lords themselves, wadi soldsfy, the great body of the public that the measure ought not to pass; as .for radical reformers, he could tx satisfy them.—(Hear.) The Noble Earl then alluded to the concessions made by Charles I. who gave all pores into the House of Commons, and declared that it should never be dissolved. The Noble Earl bad said that the pre. sent Bill would leave all the established Institutions of the country undisturbed, that it only struck at 1101311011iOL boroughs. He (Earl Haddington) believed that their Lore, ships' house would stand as securely in the absence of noeui. nation boroughs as during their existence; but the Bill was not content with sweeping these away, it contemplated greater changes, and for that reason be could not give it his support—(Hear.) If this Bill should be rejected by thee Lordiships, be hoped in Ocin that the Noble Earl at the head of the government would not adopt any hasty mea sures (Rear.) He had been uniformly a supporter of the Noble Earl; but he could not sacrifice what he considered to be the best interests of the counny, and the constitution itself, for the sake of sup that Noble Earl. His consolation was in the se rnse and moderation of the people of England, an in the interposition of that Divine a ing Power who would not forget his people, if they did not forget themselves. (Hear.) Lord RADNOR said he really could not gather from the ailments of the speech of the noble earl whether he was foe a against It; he bad quoted speeches of Mr. Canning marl Mr. Banknotes, spigot particular modes of reform, but the noble earl had not informed the house what sort of re do= be should approve of. He complained that all the speitibes which had been made were Committee vetches, going into details upon minor points, and yet noble lords objected to din bill going into Committee. Certain noble lords bad elgiesned themselves in favour of the principle of reform: yet they said they should vote against the present bill before it was mat halo committee, where its principles of reform could only Pe fairly understood. He contended that the gain number of petitions from all parts of the country in Amor aired= was inenntrovertible proof that the measure was popular. (Hear, bear.) The noble lord wenn to est that an reform ers were net to be saddled wills the Medina el the car try On the contrary, it no a graery with $m if these di wen not altogether oca . lined by tale absence of retrieve. (Hear.) Mae use ens tore of habit, sad adverse to the grievance of cheer i bet when 'greater noes from want of champ, any Er an would adopt the fanner, ems is meow 01 private laimost-41 Amu. every thing was dwells. mead as 4 leatitistloos *be changing; the Woes et the Po* were changing; theist" to contend against at to coated against a prin4le of natnemi4m ea s i ri e - 1 The great change which Mid taken place, and the butentim to that change, now required their Lerehip is take s desperate jump—he ought not to say desperate, fee he m very willing to tabs it; but some great moo= was nem. eery to merespend with the poem slats of dig& tall bode "posies had said, that tide messoritioall stet mthil that Eadial Idslum6 The Radical BD themeless midday were with it (No). Well dall Or Radical liehmen bad not petitioned aping b. Mc DO' but bed net mil be was itisuithisi 'Was meassm. lie. ` ' sodded with ft, bat the T AO , . wern a L s Homr, We, boa) Pak* bed now iir°r everye bed Impoweed. The mils led then doectedag the Noose to a beer he bad received Ass 1 Maass "wades is Manhole; wies chewed es sled beaming and ink with the seines, as thew do bad received the baulk of &Weal edesetioas, mitiga l l that their Wilshire alight as easily proem thsmedow P I " lag older, es perms such pimple as this opmetivedses ft! amble& swam se later, desk jam eights. _(am) P mood dist Nib beds would suppers dm MI, to those ealmaides which might otherwise mese ; be V : Ptak cordially gave the meanie hi . s u s i uffet. Nail at HADDINGTON ea Tim debate was then adjourned at Q7lPelt OW " WI. till font o'clock this day. HOUSE OF COMMONS. _ The Smiess was soottaosed se the How of Pon beer the Itoyell given by Conmhdon to the Evo l ," laden of the Wise A t t Agent lee 8113. the &le at Game Bil 4 oboe BID& Me. OTONNIILL yeeeemied Mee patient fra 411 7 1 =9 Preying Ihee dte yeeessary helang he The hem andonsa also s aim they siemphiee ltetper Ati. ism ewe indlehhob b wise the viii they Mee a few words fees Mr. Coompsee, Sir B. Dire°2s'