Star. — London, England, 1822-03-21 00:00:00

n ali a l l' a grints. He 'Wilds object to be to have the Bill a i nt t ime, and printedijn order to b& sent to the Magistrat. through the county?, **llia At/ abidments might be lug. gested.4lse Billawas raw) kirst time, and ordered to be printed. Isciit4Altv I'INBNIEDINOS BILL. Oath. Atiodo‘foillabiliOtifri Committee on the Summary Troceedings Bill, Mr. CH ETWYND said, that hi consequence of suggestions from several Members of that House, and from some country Magistrates, he thought the best way would be to have the Bill committed then, with a view to have the Amendments added and printed, and to be recommitted on a future day.— The Bill then went through a Committee of the whole House. The House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be brought upon Friday sennight, and to be printed. IMPORT DUTIES ON TALLOW, BUTTER, AND CHEESE. Mi. CURWEN said, that he would have cordi ally yielded the subject which he was now about to bring before the House, to the care of Government, had they she. n any disposition to take it up, as, in justice to its importance and the necessities of the times, they were bound to do. He had, early in the present Session, urged the subject on the consideration of the Government. But seeing that there was no in tention on their part to take up the affair, and having received a variety of letters on the subject, some of which considered• that the import of tallow was a great cause of the fall of grain, it was not necessary for him to say one word with respect to the general distress. He would he content to assume that it was the wish of every Member of the House to relieve the public distress. He would premise that what he now proposed would net involve any diminution of the public revenue, and therefore stood in a very different view from that in which other propositions coming from his side of the House were placed. Whatever was the distress of the people at the opening of the Session, every one must admit that it was not now lessened—he believed he was warranted in saying that it had increased. So that if the measures of his Majesty's Ministers for the relief of the country had not succeeded (as every one felt that, as remedies, these measures were greatly disproportioned to the evils to be redressed), and if it appeared that other measures might be had recourse to, he thought he had a good reason to claim the support of the House upon this occasion. The failure of the measures of Ministers to afford relief put the House under obli gation to seek out other sources of relief. It the relief were ever so little, still it would be a great benefit, because it would spew a disposition on the part of the House to sympathise with the suffering people; and he was sure that the Ilouse would receive thel bonus with gratitude, and bear patiently their suffer ings, in the hope that time would at length put an end to them. In the measure which he had to pro pose he recognised no such principle as that of re lieving one part of the country at the expense of the other. There was no such partial dealing in this I I measure. No one could deny that such was the ex- 1 tremity of distress, that the farmer now, contrary to the ancient practice, was not enabled, after he had made his market, to spend a farthing in the town,_ The distress was not confined to one-body or class. Every man who had anything to sell felt the pressure of the times in the difficulty lie had to get a purchaser for his commodity, and in the small price which it fetched. Under these circumstances he confidently ex pected the support of the House in proposing a measure which tended to alleviate the distress at the same time that it did not infringe on the revenue of the State.— Whatever the House Ind hea:d of the sufferings of the agricultural body, he would take it upon him to say that the gralier suffered a considerably greater degree of distress. The price of animal food, which used to be sold at 10d. was now depreciated to 3d. 4d. and 31d. The farmer who was selling to the butcher could obtain no more from the butcher, sink ing a quarter for offal. The measure which he would propose, was to raise the importation duty on tallow. lie knew that the effect would be to raise the price on the consumer, but the advantage which would be obtained on the other hand would more than coun terbalance this addition. The quantity imported into this country from Russia amounted to above a third of the consumption. The quantity of English tallow consumed was 75,000 tons. The quantity of Russian was 35,000 tons. The price of the home commodity was about 3id..per lb. The Russian fanner got in our market lion 3d. to 3d. per lb. The English farmer fed his cattle on ground which paid on the average 20s, an acre; but the Russian farmer fed his cattle on land standing him in about a shilling an acre. In short, the cattle were kept for nothing else but their tallow by the Russian farmer. Under these circumstances, what possible competition could there be between the two farmers ? Was it fitting that the English Government should recognize in its own market a competition between the Russian far. mer and the English one ? The House should not disregard the condition of the English farmers, a class of men who, some time ago, possessed a supe riority over the same class in every other part of the world. He asked, was it the wish of the House to see them upon the same footing with the Russian boor ? The Emperor Alexander, when he was here, used as he was to the wietched condition of the vas sals of his dominions, after he had seen some part of the population of England, still asked where was the People? by which he meant the vassals. That state of superiority the People were losing fast; but yet much could be done for them. The mode which he was about to propose, appealed to him to be capable of affording relief to the grazier, by raising the price oF tallow, and at the same time not enhance the price of the manufactured commodity to the consumer, as tlle tax upon candles would be taken off. In evet y respect it was unwise to leave so small a duty upon imported Russian tallow. It bore a great dispropor tion to the duty upon hemp, an article so necessary to our shipping. At present, the duty on tallow, an article into which no labour entered, was only 10 per cent. whilst on hemp, which was produced with great labour and great expense, and with which no Eng lish •article was put into competition, was 35 per cent. Now this was a great disproportion. It was unjust and unwise that that which was in competition with our produce should be lightly taxed, and ano ther article necessary to our shipping, and with which )pete, and therefore wanted not pro. should be taxed so much out of pro was an idle fear, to think that by in on tallow, we should exclude it The trade was too good to be (en if the duty obliged the Russian his profits (which he was sure it had uo doubt but that Russia would rather than low the market. The l ' 1 t t er arm= &mu.. we did not comp t ctiug duties, sho I portion. But it sv creasing the duty R a n r d ke e t v . 4 ' I givenfro I t: i p s ; grazier to lower would not), he ha wake uctifitcs r whole quantity Itf tallow 'AIM Raid* produebd an• nasally Y d was co tirctutcn;lrsy% and dßuot of this 35 wrth was e effect i which the low rate of duty on tallow bad upon Raw. sia herself? It was this: Russia, taking advantage, of the facilities with which her produce was admitted to this market, made a demand which amounted to £70,000 annually, for permission to bring the tallow here. One effect, then, which laying on a duty would have, would be to induce the Emperor of Russia to take off the duties which existed at his side ; or, at least, the Russian grazier would square matters, so as still to meet the market, though with increased I duties. This consequence would as certainly follow in the case of Russia, as it did before in those of Spain and Holland, when we put additional duties on wool, cheese, and butter. The effect of these duties was to make these States take off the duties which they imposed ; and, so far from decreasing the quantity, particularly in the articles of cheese and butter, there had been an increase last year of no less than 800,000 casks of butter. And, whilst be was upon this subject, he would say the duty upon batter and cheese was not yet high enough. The ob ject was to protect Irish butter and cheese ; but, from the increase of Dutch cheese and butter, it had not 'this effect. But the Irish butter and cheese were en titled to protection, for a state of pasture seemed most natural to the soil of Ireland. The produce of that species of farming should therefore be protected and encouraged in this country as much as possible. Hitherto the effect of the duty upon Dutch butter had been to increase the supply, and to diminish the import of Irish butter in the same proportion. Some means ought to be taken to give the Irish fanner further protection. His object in this motion would be to increase the duty upon Russian tallow to WI. per ton. The effect which it would have, as he said before, would be not to raise the price of candles here, but to take off a portion from the profits of the Russian grazier. The price of the article to the Rus sian grazivr would be educed from 3 d. per lb. to 24d. —By the increase of duty, English tallow would be raised .51. 10s. per ton, and this,upon the whole quan tity of tallow, would yield 300,0001. to the English farmer. Then take 201. a ton upon 35,000 tons, the amount of duty would be 700,0001. of which 600,000/. would be a surplus over and above the present amount of duty. He would then take off the tax upon can dles, which produced 560,0001. annually ; but the ex pense of collecting it cost full one-seventh. This was a most onerous tax upon the consumer ; and, when it produced so little to the Revenue, it ought to be done away with.• Besides the high duty upon candles required the manufacturer to take larger pro fits. The tallow for candles cost SJ. per lb. and the manufacture 1 d. but the Public were obliged to pay 9d. per lb. for the manufactured article. In every sixpence the consumer paid twopence profit, and a penny to Government. By this it appeared, that if any person was allowed to manufacture his own can dles, which would be the consequence of taking off the duty, he would save 4d. on every pound, viz.- 2d. profit, ld. to Government, and Id. manufacture. —Or, if the tax was done away, he would suggest a commutation of it by charging every man 10s.a-year, as in Scotland. The grazier then would be a gainer of 300,0001. a•year by the rise in tallow ; and with the 600,00(3. excess, the consumer would in fact gain 900,0001. Ile estimated the quantity of English tal low made into soap at 35,000 tons, and into candles at 18,0(X), making 53,000 altogether. But he should also a.id the duty of 20,000 tons more, which were illicitly manufactured, and this would yield 400,0001. more. By thus taking off the duty on candles, and imposing a duty on Russian tallow, the price of English tallow would be raised,whereby the English firmer would be benefitted, and the pi ice of candles to the consumer would not be enhanced. But if any difliculties occurred, owing to the relation in which we stood to Russia, he would advise that the duty upon tallow might be compromised for that upon hemp. This exchange could not be prejudicial to Russia, and would be beneficial to the graziers ard to the shipping interest. At no time was the shipping interest mole distressed than at present. It wuula also be a considerable relief to the fishery trade,which was upon the decline, as was proved by the number of ships engaged in the Greenland whale fishery being 10 less last year than in the year before. By the increase of duty upon tallow, oil would be raised 31. Gs. and thus 40,0001. would be gained to that trade. Having thus stated the nature of his proposition, he wished to say, that he vt ould not have brought the measure forward, if Government had shewn any disposition to take it up. He was sure such motions were always most effectual in the hands of his Majesty's Minis ters. The measure would relieve the graziers and the fisheries. He would not press upon the Right lion. Gentleman the necessity of applying some re medy, for the Right Ilon. Gentleman himself knew that the country was in such a state that, if some thing was not done, it could not go on. He hoped, therefore, as he bad pointed out a mode of relief which would not be burthensome to the consumer, that his proposition would meet with the support of Gentlemen opposite. The Hon. Member concluded by moving—" That a Committee be appointed to consider the propriety of imposin g an additional duty upon Russian imported Tallow,with a view of taking the Taxes off Soap and Candles." Mr. SYKES said he concurred in the necessity of reducing the burthens of the people, in the present state of distress ; but he did not entirely approve of the mode which the Honourable Member had sug gested of making the reduction. It appeared to him, that whilst the question of peace or war was still un settled between Russia and Turkey, it would be im portant that we should do nothing to affect the in. fluence which we might possess at the Court of the latter—(Hear, hear).—lt might happen also that Russia would retaliate, by imposing duties upon our imported goods, which would be alarming. He had' heard of a speculation in the City respecting Russian commodities, and, without saying that this motion had any connection with it, he would just express a hope that this House would not lend its sanction to any speculation of a private nature—(Hear, hear). — He was at a loss to see the Honourable Member's motives for wishing to enlarge those duties. It ap , peared to him, that so far from benefiting the ship i ping interest, such a measure would be prejudicial to r•at. He was clearly of opinion that he should injure ! that interest by giving his support to this motion. By raising the duties on Russian tallow, the import of it would be diminished ; and as all the carrying lir He agreed with ineasity-of lest be was sure that - - to the amount of felt as any other to , objections to this tax. In the . place, . the poor rather than on the rich ; for the new modes of lighting by lamps, gas, ac. were used entirely by the rich, whilst the candles were used, by the poorer sort. It was also a tax upon labour, for the la- . bourer did great part of his work by candle-light. This was of all taxes the worst. Being then of opi nion that this tax ought to be repealed, the next ques tion was, whether it Could be spared? lie was of opinion that it might well be spared, and from the Sinking Fund. He was not to be understood, how ever, as arguing against the existence of a Sinking Fund; for he was of opinion that in a country like this it was necessary to public credit to have a clear excess of revenue over the expenditure. He objected, how ever, to that being called a Sinking Fund, andstill more to that Fund being so large as 5,000,0004 He would not leave this excess in the hands of Ministers.— Thinking, therefore, that the 5,000,000/. Sinking Fund was too large, he contended that the sum of 380,000/. could be spared out of it, • and the tax on candles remitted. He concluded by saying that there was no other tax, the remission of which would be taken as a greater boon than the tax in question. Mr. F. ROBINSON said he had but a few obser vations to make upon the motion before the House. It would be his duty to oppose that motion, and his reasons for so doing had been partly anticipated by the Honourable Member who spoke last. Feeling as sensibly as any other man the weight of the present distress, he would not give place to any Gentleman in wishing to relieve that distress as far as possible. He could not, however, consent to relieve one class at the expense of the community—(Hear, hear). — Until he could persuade himself that this motion in tended relief without general prejudice, he could not give it his support. Hitherto he had not been able to arrive at that conviction in his own mind. Nirhatl, was the state of the case ? This was a proposition to increase the duties on tallow, which would either raise the price of tallow, or it would not. If it raised the price, then would it aggravate the distress which was at present complained of, by increasing the-price of candler, an article that was mostly used by the working classes. But the Honourable Member, by a peculiar calculation of his own, endeavoured to chew, that though the price of tallow was increased, by the imposition of a new duty, yet the price of candles would not be enhanced to the consumer— (Hear, hear).—This was sophistry which he (Mr. Robinson) could not undei stand. Surely the state of the case was this: at present, the duty upon candles was from 91. to 101. that upon tallow from 31. to 41. say 121. or 131. to both; but take off 9/. or 10/. and lay on 20/. the new duty, and the consumer was a loser by the difference—(Hear, hear).—lt was clear, therefore, that as to the consumer this would be a losing game. But it was said that it would be a be nefit to the agriculturists. Suppose this was the case, he asked, would the House accede to the pro position, and serve one class at the expense of the community ?—(Hear, hear).—The arguments used by the Ilonourable Gentleman had been before put forward by an advocate for this proposition ; but it had been suggested, that there were other considera tions which operated to bring this motion before the House. If the house thought that there were such motives at the bottom of this proposition, they should be careful how they proceeded. But even assuming with the Honourable Member that the duty would raise tallow 51. 10s. a ton (though how lie arrived at that conclusion he could not say), yet this, upon the whole, would give the grazier but 3s. in an ox— (Hear, hear).—lle asked them, for such a trifle were we to risk our relations with other countries? It was to be observed, too, that at one time the Honourable Member argued that it would raise the price of tal low, and at another, that it would not enhance the price of candles to the consumer. But supposing that the loss was visited upon the foreign grazier in stead of the consumer, he asked, was it wise policy to deprive the foreigner of his just and reasonable charge of profits? If this country acted upon so selfish a principle, it might as well shut up shop at once—Wear, /rear).—Such a system, however fine in' theory, could not be acted upon, for it would.inevi tably create distrust and jealousy, and, eventually, hostility in other Powers towards this country. Upon all these grounds he opposed the motion. Mr. RICARDO was pleased to hear such senti ments fall from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. Ile wished that Government in future would regu late themselves by such opinions. If they had done so before, they would not have laid on so many un wise, restrictive, and prohibitory laws upon the im portation of the produce of other countries. The Hon. Mover had stated that the laying on this tax would raise the price of tallow 51. 10s. per ton ; but, from the premises which the Hon. Member gave, he (Mr. Ricardo) could never arrive at such a conclu sion. He was persuaded that the effect would be to enhance the price of candles here, for the Russian grazier had sent the commodity here at the lowest rate that he could afford it. Upon that ground he was against this motion, for he never would consent to benefit a particular class at the expense of the body of consumers—(Hear). He was an enemy to restrictions of every kind, for he thought every coun try should have the benefit of its industry. But be was a little surprised at the arguments of the Hon. Member for Hull (Mr. Sykes). That Hon. Member, whilst he admitted the necessity of a clear surplus, declared himself hostile to a Sinking Fund. He said he would not trust Ministers with the management of it ; but what then would he do with the excess? It could only be useful in diminishing the burdens, by eventually diminishing the great burden ; but how such an instrument was to be wielded by other than the Ministers hands, he (Mr. Ricardo) could not ima gine —(Hear, hear).—Several Gentlen;ea had talked. of repealing this and that tax. One Gentleman had. leak, -nether soap and candles; every one seemed to have his hobby I—(4 laagh).—Now what he would Suggest was neither one nor other of these, but a re pof the tax upon Law Proceedings—(Hear, hear) , —which was the most odious of all, and which at tacked the poor and !piddling classes in the heaviest manner—(Hear).—This was the tax he would re peal ; and it the Sinking Fund wab to be applied in catid nett* applied better said, he did not entirely agree (ember as to the benefits to be de - tax upon Law Proceedings. might be more beneficially .s to motion, it was doubtful whether the price of tallow Would Ist raised at. lOs. per ton; but it was certain that the candlesitould be raise d to the consumer. The tax whitish* considered the worst of all was the tax uptm wool. When the tax upon wool was raised before, it was true that Spain took off but she also part of the tax which it had Imposed , forbid the importation of our wongoods. additional duty was laid upon Russian tallow, it was to be expected that Russia would lay on a tax upon something else in retaliation. There was n o say i ng what effect such a measure would have upon the new Tariff about to be made public. This country at least should not throw the first stone. If additional duties were to be laid on, let them rather act in reta liation than as aggressors. He-was an aclv(.cate fir free trade, and he should, therefore, oppose restrkct tions of any nature. Mr. BENETT (.Wilts) supported the motion. li Gentlemen were consistent in their arguments for free trade, they ought to repeal the protecting duCe, to the several branches of our manufactures. Its Hon. Friend, whilst he repealed one tax, propo. E .l another in lieu of it. An Honourable Member (Mr. Sykes) had proposed the repeal of the duties ilium candles and soap, but had not ventured to offer any other tax in lieu of them. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Curwen) seeks not to take away the Revenue in one case, without giving a fair equivalent by the duties on another—the equivalent he offers, by raising the duty on the importation of tallow to 20/. the tor, would amply make up for the repeal of any tax ni t soap and candles. He should conclude by cordially voting for the Committee. Mr. PHILLIPS observed, that it had been asked why had not the manufacturers come forward in the present state of the country ? He conceived that a refetence to the Petitions on the table would shew that they had come forward in considerable nu,nbei s. He thought it most extraordinary to suppose that , v.-e could not protect our own manufacture, against manufactures of other countries. The tax upon the importation of raw silk might, he thought, he repealed with advantage, and would he the means of asst tin; the agriculturists. Indeed, he considered that ever..- repeal would be attended with advantage to them ; for, in his opinion, commerce was the chief supito.: of agriculture. - - - - - Mr. CURWEN shortly replied. He thought !t hard that an individual had been mentioned in the course of the present discussion. He (Mr. Curwen) had had communication. with that individual on tilis subject in the course of the last year ; but his opinin had had no influence whatever upon his own. HI thought all the principles of the new school of poi. tical economy' contradicted themselves, and that dangerous crisis was approaching. The revenue of the country could not, in the present state of thi! , gs, be collected much longer; and, when the revenue could not be collected, the ruin of agriculture could not be far distant. He should not press the que,tion, as the sense of the House appeared to be against h'm; but he wished Ministers to recollect, that although the people of this country had hitherto borne their burthens with eiemplary patience, they might, when they found their grievances remained unredressed, be induced to a different line of conduct.—The motion was then put, and negatived without a division. country to this pus - carried on In rideetning a tat at all, It shatliade wilolldbeiniesstd &sit _Y• than in tots way—.{Hear). he nollisurabis Meth ber 'Os to we MI. T. WILSON said, wing the burdens of the people, and w i t h t h e h ist Hon. Membe the repeal of the tax upon candies, sired from repealing the t 360 ig. would be as refollY There were others which to the same amount. He d many repealed. As to this motif tax. In the first place, Mewled on the price of tallow *add SVPERANNVATION The C H ANC ELLOR of the EXCH EQUER asked leave to defer the second reading of the Superannua tion Bill. Mr. HUME was anxious to see the schedule at tached to the Bill, for the purpose of viewing the scale of deductions, as he considered that there were many classes f clerks to whom the principle should not apply. He particularly noticed the clerks of Ex cise, who held Wades under £lOO a-year. It was his intention to oppose any deduction from persons so situated. He considered it impossible to go int) the Committee without seein A the schedule, to in spect the various proposed clauses. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER op posed the production of the schedule. The SPEAKER said, that the Hon. Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume) must see that it was impossible to comply with his request, without breaking through all the forms of the House. The only question now before the House was the second reading of the Bill, and the subject of debate should be on that point only that could be altered by debate. Mr. G. BENNET thought the schedule should be produced: he did not think it possible to discuss the principle of the Bill without seeing the clauses of it. The Order of the Day - was then discharged, and the Bill ordered to be read a second time on Friday. IRISH FIVE PER CENTS. BILL. The House having resolved itself into a Committee on the Irish Five per Cents. Bill, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, as the measure of reducing the Five per Cent. Stock had so fully succeeded in this country, he did not wish to leave the wotk imperfect, and would therefore apply it as soon as possible to Ireland, by placing the holders of Five per Cent. Stock on tl:„, same tooting as had been done in England. The amount of Five per Cent. Stock created at various times, and by various Acts of Parliament, in Ireland, was nine millions, exclusive of some the property of the Bank. He intended, by the Resolutions to be sub mitted to the House, to apply it solely to that Stcc" held by the Public. He would explain that two mil lions and a half were held by the Bank of Irel,inde and which was not redeemable until the expiration of the Bank Charter. There was also a sum of 1:550,000 held by the same Body, which was redeem able at six months notice. The Treasury had given the necessary notice, to which an answer was not yet 'received, but he had no doubt of a satisfactory ar rangement. He would apply his Resolution only to that Stock held by the Public. He coati iereti that eight days would be sufficient time for dissent, instead of twelve, which was allowed here, as the Wider.; et Irish Stock were principally resident in Ireland, and its amounr was so much less than in this country.- 1 be Resolution was agreed to. The House then restarted, and immediately after resolved it- I:if auto a Committee of Supply. Sir JOHN OSBORN then moved that the sum of £T.65,01/4 1 1 0 ~f