Star. — London, England, 1810-06-09 00:00:00

12d by a declaration. The first aesolution he in t proposing would be a copy of one passed in . sue " Resolved, that whoever should presume to ime oee .t prosecution against the Speaker or Ser for. acting in obedience to the House, such per guilty of a breach of privilege." He proposed two more—" That it appears that unions have instituted by Sir *Francis Burdett against the t Honourable Charles Abbott, and John Cole- Esqs. for acts done in obedience to this House— t the proper Officer of the Court of King's Bench sum moned to attendat.the bar of the House to vow, with all the proceedibgs already instituted." the first Resolution being read, ie CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER . that he did not th in k it necessary to adopt this ration, it would be a dfrect contradiction to the ticm to which it applied. The Honourable Gen , on founded his arguments on a proposition which woulJ deny. The House was to pursue a purl- • course, not because there had been a breach of ilege, but for the purpose of establishing a certain idation. /f it was not necessary for the House to ,i se ies Privileges, it was competent to use its dis on on the subject, and to know the way it should I n the allusion the Honourable Gentleman made the Habeas - Corpus Act, he unfottunately men. ione d t he only circumstance which could tend to zee a doubt. He said that the House was sup. lllnot to know the ~Solicitoe, 'hut that even the would sue the act ; if any one was to sue in ig. in ce, it could not be the Jailor, for he Must ne cessarily be acquainted with the warrant; And o( mule with the authority of the' committal—he is fore guilty of a breach of privilege; but in fact , the very establishing of that case In Which it may broken. It was a question of ;right of common ' proceeding. He contended, therefore, notwith ling the denial of the Hanourahle Gentleman, the cases remained analogous. The discretionary ise of Privilege was not a question for discussion. Honourable Gentleman proceeded to state, that ► brought under notice, there was nothing to do to vindicate them. He burnt) doubt of the pro :y of this, yet he thought when the question was Iglu forward, the House would be incompetent ccide. The Honourabl; Gentleman put the ques what was to be done in case the Court of King's :h should decide against the House—in respect is he relied on the justice of the. Court. He asked case the decision of Lord Ellenborough was un trable, would the House 'commit him He never r an instance of a. Lord of Parliament •ora Judge le discharge of his duties in his Court being coo., !c1 ; in such a case he would rather prefer an im :hinent—Wearrhear.) But he ye s es Confident that Fudge would be guilty of such a pervetiion of the , and of such an abandonment of his duty. The ice of the two roads was not .to be lade on the supposition of the tribunal acting illegally. The lourable Gentleman then suggested his intention thing the Officer of, the Court to tip Bar, and tg from him the proceedings on the RolL He, should rescind these resolutions, and reiolleci he was it to pursue a course in violaticiti of decorum and precedent. He hoped tit Have seen a Right Hon. uleman sitting near the Honourable Mover, who, t former occasion,.entered most fully into this sub , and came to a decision, that the House ought tdopt no other course than what it now pursued. conceived that the House should do no more than had done, in the present Session, as to any impres ion of fear or timidity. They had been before ac tied of rashness, be however apprehended thatlhey td acted consistent throughout—(Hear, hear.)— ie best way was for the House not to.take the ques. in in its own h a nd s ; but bring it under the consi -ation of another Court. . 4r. ADAM stated, by . authoar Aut. his Right )nourable Friend (Mr. Ponsonby did not conclude speech as had been said. It was his opinion that Privileges of the House were tb be ascertained on era. He had communicated with him since ois subject, and he, had abundantly confirmed his assertion. His absence was occasioned by illness in family. The adinitting of the action, is a proof it can be brought to the destruction of the Pri eges of the Hotote ; and is likewise sanctioned by permitting the tpeakee to "plead. If any Member 'food up on the motion for committal of Sir Francis rdett, and said that if he was sent to the Tower action would be brought against the Speaker, w would he have been treated ? Would he not re been considered an enemy to the Constitution 1 to the Privileges of the -J-louse ? The Right :mourable Gentleman had argued on the similarity . the case with that of the Habilis Corpus. Com pare it with the notices of the action, and remember, gat for the first time in the history of England such action against the Speaker is to be recorded. It not possible that they can stand on the same )antis ; it is not at all similar to the cases of Alder in Oliver and Brass Crosby. Sir Francis Burdett, a :dying the action, was guilty be contempt of the tine. The course of proceeding for the libel had adopted, and mot for the contempt. The doctrine of his Right Honourable Friend had been ..tally mistaken. For his part, he agreed with the fun Resolution ,• for the remainder he would not per ips contend, In coniideration of the _state of the inds . of the.people, and the wish to avoid interfcr with the Courts of Justice. By the first Resolu twhat had already been" done would not be rescin- If the House was to be . prorogned without an' assertion of its privileges, it might cause an alteration the Constitution. - The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was of opinion, that one of the Resolutions could not be adopted Without the rest. The House should go to the full 3t4;t t ent of exp ung i ng a ll t h e procee di ngs, or not erase . In v a i n was i t said that they consulted the dig nity of the H ouse , b y f u l m i nat i ng a b roa d a b stract anion s , if t h ey were not determined to follow theni b p P. This course was either to be pursued, or that of not interfering at all. It was not 60 criminal to let the Session close without abandoning the dignity of the House ; it 'rust act, whatever is the consequen ce . Ile conceivd that the arguments of his Right Ho llourdbic Friend were well founded, in respect to the analogy orthis ea-e to the Habeas Corpus .A!ct, which he este* qd k to ue direct. It was said that it could not be so, as the Habeas Corpus was a writ' of right. Re asked, was not a writ of action likewise a writ of right ?—(//ear, hear.) The law of the land prevails precisely in both. The measures proposed by the Com mittee were approved by the saaaiblepart of mankind. - • Lori TEMPLE wished that this' ‘ote might be considered as a protest against the extraordinary way in which the House acknowledged the Courts below. He conceived• it to be a sort of.political suicide. The enacting of such laws, was' digging:a grave in which to bury the privileges of the House. Nothing more was to be expected from the vascillation and the fits of courage and cowardice of Ministers, who did not know the weapon with which they defended them selves He saw with regret those of such eloquence, and who had approved themselves masters of the sub ject, consenting to allow the Speaker to plead to the action. Mr. W. 'SMITH asserted both the, propriety of admitting the defence of the action now brought against the House, and the necessity of declaring its indubitable privileges. He was convinced, using the words of an Honourable Member, of the necessity of their reserving to themselves; at this time, the right of waging the most rigorous warfare against West minster Hall: Mr. W. WYNNP: shortly replied to the Objections that had been urged against his Resolutions. Gea tlemen opposite had, he said, studiously avoided the question which he had strongly putt to them, whether they were entirely prepared to carry the contest to the Upper House? The probability was, at any rate, that his submitted resolutions would tend-to stop the course of the action pending against the House. This was not all he felt. Contemplating, as he did, the aspect of affairs, he was most anxious to deliver up to his constituents, the Commons of England, those great privileges which they- had constitutionally intrus ted to him—to deliver them, as he received them, un altered, unabrogated, unimpaired.. I‘ , lr. PETER MOORE supported the Resolutions; after which, strangers being withdrawn, the House divided—Ayes 14—Noes 74—Majority 60. ceei2d teriJ'' 1750 com jolt I io n is then tv b ee n Iti t zht man, I That t be staff morrol On The sa id, t resolut sittestic Omar be svoi allar privily !am& rerci! oTtior act. Ii niche tinned create posed noram • cessari course therel it is tit be brO legtd r stantlit that th eterc-is The Ii viten 1 but to piety bre , gl to dcci tion, Bench to this if in ci favour knew in the :fitted t eaChl 1:0 JUL hw, a choice came Honoi of cal i taking shoult abnut al! prt Genii on a i ' ject, to ad He t it ha sion ewe t had The o tion o d era Hon( e. his sr b the P recur the s • assert I` Isis fa that i 'deg Perm stood Burd an 'a how have and ° lion, a of tl ri Pare that a an a( is nc as von • tan 0. in se th Hoy teen DI duct' doc total se irst f;, hap. in( • ;ion At - Get!. asses iu t 1 that to vitt Rite h . One. pity opi r not hi the d. the E a ana he: i not I P lie ri tt Pre VICEROY OF IRELAND. . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to movt the consideration of his Majesty's. Mes sage for augmenting the salary of the Lord Lieute• 'rant of Ireland. After specifying the different pe riods at which an increase of s , !cli salary'hact been made, and apologising to the House for nor sooner bringing forward the motion, Mr. Ferceval stated, that not only the present Lord. Lieutenant, but his predecessors, had expended double the amount of their salaries ; and ke would put it to the House, whether the filling the highest offices of the state should be the source of ruin to the individuals by whom they were so eminently sustained. The salary of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland wa s £20,000, an d yet 430.000 was the least sum re qui re d . to d e f ra y' the eipence attending that noble o ffi ce. There could be no question as to the justice of what he p ro p ose d to the House : if any question could be s t arte d, i t must be, whether ,the o ffi ce itself was necessary ? liavhig made op his mind as to the sum proper to b e grasited by that House, he had then turned his atten tion to the Civil List of Ireland. What he prop ose d was tlis—that there should, be made -an inc r e ase o f not less than £lO,OOO in the salary of the Lord Lieu e nant of Ireland 1. that the House should witiress his Majesty to make such increased allowance ; and that they should pledge themselves to make the necessary addition to the Civil List of Ireland, till, during the next session, they should be properly enabled to in vestigate the condition of the Civil List of Ireland, and ascertain how far Idle was qualified to support the office of her Viceroy. The Right Honourable Gentleman here moved the Address to his Majesty to the effect of what he had said. Mr. TIGHE expressed his astonishment that Mi nisters should at this period of the Session come down to the House with a demand for an increase of salary to an office, which he conceived most use- less, more especially: when the present Lord Lieu tenant had allowed a lapse of three years to pass, be fore he found out that the income already. allowed him was inadequate to the support of that dignity 4nd splendour which was necessary to support the Vice-regal appointment. Previous to the Union, the Lord Lieutenants of Ireland represented the third part of the Legislature of that country. ; since that event, he could not be considered in so impor tant a light, and, in fact, -- became wholly unneces sary. He was, left as a sort of memento mori, to . _ preserve in the minds of that unfortunate pcbple the recollection of the independence they once enjoyed, but of. 'which they were now unhappily deprived.— The measure of placing a resident Lord Lieutenant in Ireland had neve r entered the heads of Miniskers until the present reign. The first Lord LieuOnint sent was Lord Townsend. It was notorious,-that he was sent for the express purpose of gaining an influence over the Legislature. This object he at tained, and the cue he made of it was to substitute for the aristocracy an oligarchy of his own. The same Influence had continued down to the appoint ment of Lord Cornwallis, who made use of it to indttee the Irish Legislature to sign the instrument of their own destruction, and to deprive their Con stituents of those advantages which they had so long enjoyed, and the loss of which proved a death blow to the independence of the country. The unnecessary tax of the Lord Lieutenant did not alone rest with his emoluments of £20,000 a year, bin extended still farther. Under his immediate controul were indefi nite sums; at his option the Board of Works might be ordered to raise buildings, or waste the public gm ney in gardening ; and in addition to this., he had full power over the money intended for secret services, so that the means of contributing to his own advantage were various. If his income was increased now, a si milar application would be made, in the course of the ensuing year, for the augmentation of the Salaries of all the Civil List, which, if rejected, and the present proposition was agreed to, would be extreme injustice. —ln Scotland, there was no such establishment as that of Lord Lieutenant ; there the first Civil Officer had . bat three thousand per • annum. He coukl not see upon what reasonable ground ten times that sum was - to be granted to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. Nor could be form an adequate idea, 'why Dublin Castle was to be distinguished with Vice•royal splen dour any more-than Holyroodhoose. He could not but condemn, in the most unequivocal terms, the pre sent attempt of the Right Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the .Exchequerl : to entrap Parlia ment into-a pant of- this s bet, at a period of the Ses- 1 sion when it was impossible to epquire into the in trinsic merits of the application. Upon the whole, lie should deem himself criminal, if he was not most streunously to oppose a grant so profligate, for 'the .• 07 r.l `support of an Ace, than thui* Ite,saw -goal imeel unnecessary.• 21,,C,T411 Mr., W. FITZGERALD Armed it indispensibly necessary that the repevsestadtit of his' Majesty in Ireland, the Lord Lieutenant, should support his situation With dignity and splendour, to do which he did not conceive the present emoluments of,the office. were aJequate. He dwelt on the greatitdvan-• tage it was to the metropolis of Ireland that a Reghl Court should be held there ; it was the last link which bound many at the NObles, whose duty it was to reside there, to. that devoted country, .and to re: move the Lord Lieutenant would be to deprive the country of the last . spark of its distinction. With re spact to the assertion made by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, that the office of Lord Lieutenant was useless, it was an argument so absurd and so self-evidently fallacious, that he thought it was un- 1 necessary to detain the House by answering it. Sir JOHN NEWPORT inveighed against the in troduction of this demand at the latter end of the Session, and after a speech of .considerable length, in which he contended that an increase of the emo lumtnts of the Lord Lieutenant were wholly unne., cessary, he concluded by moving an amendment tol the original question to the following effect : To omit all the words after those representing the necessity dr an increase of the income of the Lord Lieutenant, and substitute ' these " That this Hou se most tatmbly beg leave to repr e sent to 'his Majesty, that they have sincere cause to regret, that his Ma jesty's Ministers should have advisca his Majesty to augment the salary of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, at a time when the , tares were so oppressive, owing to the continuance of the war, and at a period of the Session when it was utterly impossible to make those inquiries into the necessity of such augmentation which could justify Parliament in complying with the demand. Mr. W. POLE, in a speech of considerable length and ability, contended for an increase of the income of the Lord Lieutenants of Ireland ; and observed, that the Duke of Richmond had not the slightest knowledge of the present demand. He had himself been induced to suggest the necessity of it to the Chancellor of the Exchequer from positive informa tion he had received from the Comptroller of the Household, that the Duke of Bedford and the Duke of Richmond had expended upwards of RSt4,C9O per annum in the requisite support of d e dignity of their office. . •-•'• • • • of e away, but without rernmndt a single farthing of-the salaries would ever go beyond the p ickets of the Minister and his friends. Mr. Clifford then stated, the pounds on which the late petiti;:n had been re jected, namely, because, as was said by the House, it was intended to degrade the House of Commons: It was their object to raise the House of Commons in the estimation of the people; bur with all his know ledge of the English language, and all his respect for the House of Commons, be. knew no terms in which they could be told they were corrupt without imputing to them corruption. It would, however, be highly indecorous in them to persist in language, which was disapproved by the House, aid therefore. in the Petition he was about to propose to them, great care had been taken to avoid any thing which .ertill give even the shadow of offence. He then proceeded to read the Petition, which, he observed, would be signed by the Sheriff and 20 Electors, and no more, there being an Act of Parliament which limited the. signatures to that number, under pain of a heavy penalty, and they were not willing to subject them selves to the mercy of a common informer, by ei ceeding that number The Petition was then read, which, after complal•- ing of the rejection of their petition as an infringe ment of their rights, proceeded to assert, that - the allegations contained in it were true. and that the committal of Sir Francis Burdett and John Gale Jones was illegal; and that in limiting the number of signatures to the late Petition, they had been careful to comply with the law of the land, which limited it to twenty. It then proceeds to assure the House that there was no intention on their pan to insult the House, and that it was only by its own acts that it could be degraded in the opinion of the people.' The Petition then goes et considerable length. into state of the Representation of the People, and.the sale of seats in Parliament ; and concludes with praying for Reform in Parliament, the release of Sir Francis Burdett, and the reception of the rejected petition. Mr. BRNTLEY rose to second the motion. ' He said that argument; against the Freeholders of Middlesex were much wanted by their opponents ; and he in treated that their conduct this day might not afford any handle to their enemies; but that they would act with decorum and politeness, and hear fairly those who opposed their wishes. By so doing, they would best serve their own cause; and, by a coin ary conduct, they would Maltreat their best friends, by an implied opinion that they had not talents to answer theiroppoe i nents. He took this occasion to state the one of their principal opponents in the House of Commons, was an ,apostate front that cause which he fornierly pretended to defend; that he himself once saw this man, in a public company, draw forth from his pocket a book, which he reed, in condemnation of every principle of religion and chrlstianity ; and that he had concluded his reading, by declaring that book his creed, his Bible. He had heard the same man, in a public company, give this toast : " May the last of Kings be buried in the guts of the last of Priests." - No person could ever expect that any man who had thus apostatized from his Gan, and traduced his King, would be true to any good cause. No man could suppose such WAS the conduct of a Jacob, but teller that of an Eaas. Yesterday, in consequence of a requisition signed' With respect to the question before the meeting, he by a number of the Freeholders of Middlesex, a meet.; totally denied the maxim, th a t th e pfi v il eges assume d ing was held at the Mermaid, H ac k ney , for the put- by any distinct branch of the Legislature had the pose of taking into consideration the steps necessary force of law ; that eve, a Bill read three times its to be taken, in consequence of the rejection of the late each House had that torce, until it obtained the for- Petition by the House of Commons. mal assert of the Crown, when it became an Act of At one o'clock the great room being about half full, Parliament, and a law of the land. He said that ' the Sheriff took the chair, and Mr. SheriffWoori was the privilege's of the House of CoMmons existed proceeding to read the requisieiien, when some persons only to secure their own immediate proceedings proposed adjourning to the Green : this was opposed from obstruction. like the privileges of every public -by others, in which opinion the Sheriff agreed, upon Court. - Matters of libel belonged only to the dab,- this a scene of great confusion ensued, some calling rate decision of the Courts of L iw, before a Jury ; out Green, others Room, Room, and the Sheriff failed and not to the House of Commons, assuming the cha. in several attempts to obtain a hearing : after some rasters of Judge, Jury, and Prosecutor, in its own time having been wasted, it was found that a f e w cause. If once this assumption of privilege were ad- ' turbulent spirits were determined to prevent business mitted, it might become a breach of privilege for a from going on without an adjournment, which ac.' man to eat a mutton-chop for his dinner. cordingly took place to the Green. Order being re- Mr. BLAKE denied the positions of Mr. Clifford. stored, the Sheriff recommended to the Assemble, to The people were enabled, by the provisions of the give to every gentleman, whatever might be his prin.. Bill of Rights, to meet when and where they thought ciples, a fair and patient hearing. proper, for the purpose of stating their °pillions on Mr.. CLIFFORD, in coming ((reward to propose the public questions. He observed that Mr. Clifford was Resolutions, lamented that the severe indisposition of also in error when he stated that a petition could only Mr. Hare Townsend should have rendered it neces- be signed by twenty persons, this was only set to sarj' for him to present himself to the Meeting at so petitions to which the approval of two Magistrates early a period. He had, however, in the absence of that or the majority of the Grand Jury could not be ob- Gentleman, been requestetuto bring forward a Peti. tained. He observed, that every statute referred to tion to the House of Commons, and he recommended in the petition before them, admitted that men_rnight to the present Meeting to adopt the same mo d e o f he committed without a trial by jury l occording to the conduct which had formerly governed meeti ngs o f law of the land, and the law o f P arl i ament was part of the County of Middlesex, namely, to hear both par. that law. He adduced Lord Coke, Sir W. Blackstone, ties quietly, let the question be put and fairly decided, Chief Justice De Grey, &c. that a resolution of either by a shew of bands. Lately, there had been nothing House of Parliament was law, so fir as the privileges of public opposition, but instead of it private uncon- of 'that House were concerned; and with such autlao stitutional, he had almcst said, jacobinical Meetings, rities, and with Resolutions to a similar effect, passed had been held at Taverns, as if the party were asha- and acted on by both Houses, at some of the best pe ened to meet their adversaries; id open day—(Ap. riods of our history, he asked, would the Meeting yen /rheum) He saw several Gentlemen near him whose ture to declare this to be a new and alarming assump political principles differed from his, who had signed don of power? He cautioned the Meeting against the Counter-declarations, arid he hoped he should bear idea,. in a frantic moment, of seeking to deprive the them deliver their sentiments on the present occasion, House of Commons of these privileges. IF they were as lie was convinced the mbre the subject was dis- once given up, and were only to exist at the discretion cussed, the more converts would be made, and the of the House of Lords, the' doom cf England was morewould the pure beauties of our Constitution be ad- sealed. As they had been purchased, so could they mired. Jelled beet imputed to Mr. Mellish, in the only, if once surrendered, be regained by the blood Newspapers, with what truth he would not attempt of the people of this country. As the, question was to say, that he (Mr. M.) had asserted in the House shortly to come before the Judges of the land, he of Commons that the late Meeting was not respects. deprecated the idea of prejudging it. He then pro. ' ble, and that few of the persons assembled tvere Free- Pounced an animated panegyric .on Mr. Windham..? , holders. He trusted, liuwever, that the same would and was clieeted by both parties in retiring. -.. not be said of th e p resent M eet i ng ; no persons cou l d M r . C LIFPORD d en i e d t h e doctrine laid down by kuow the Freeholders so well as those who represented the last speaker. ' .! them, and if he (Mr. M.) thought the present was not The Rev. W. DRAPER said, that baying besifd melt a Meeting of Freeholders, it was his duty now to state of lase on this occasion, be wished for a little reason. that fact. Mr. Clifford said, there had lately been He denied that the petition to the House of Commond 4 . some curious debates in the House of Commons, on was couched in language that could war-tent its rejec. the subject of Sinecuee Places, and Parliamentary Re. tion. The petition hiving stated facts ill strong and „. form. Mr. Ponsonby, Mr. Bankes, and Mr. Tier- concise language, made, its respectful bow, which was ney, were for moderate Reforni—courtly improve- 'as much as could-be 'reqeired in any polite publia $. meat ; but he (Mr. Clifford) was not so to Ise misled, company. Had it Spoken in weak language, it would and he ousted the people would not either. He , not have been thougheto come from petitioners who would gi v e t h e m a simile re-Suppose a physician ! felt what they complained of. It was only since the .; were called i n t o prescribe for a pe rson l a b o b iang under 1 i ntro d uct i o n o f I ta li an mus i c i ans i n t h e lusarious I en inveterate disease, and this phy s i c i an were to con. t i mes o f t hi s country , t h a t t h e plan was discover:d of tent himself with merely prescribing a medicine to re. setting groans to music; aqd if the lan of .move certain blotches from the face of his patient, and plaint was not conveyed it still leav e th e disease, which was underrelnino his refined ears of the present constitution, uatoucbed, what would be skid of Kim ? theft was trot with the i Such would be the moderate Reform telked of by rMidJlesex, who` felt Tio these Gentlemen : Reversion and Sinecures would be tetlings- Mr. MALLET, from a Mr. MARTIN opposed the motion of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer with much fire and eloquence. After some further observations from Mr. Lyttle ton, Mr. Huskisson, Mr. Parnell, Mr.-Bankes, Lord Desart, Mr. Grattan, Mr. Croker, Mr. Tierney, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Whitbread, strangers were ordered to withdraw. Sir JOHN NEWPORT withdrew his amendment for one proposed by Mr. Bankes, and on which a di. vision took place. The numbers we re , F or t h e amend ment 53—Against it 71L-Majority. 36. al'he original question was then put and agreed to. • The Vote of Credit Bill, after some observations from Mr. WHITBREAD, was ordered to be read a third time on Thuriday next. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, when the House adjourned at half past two. MIDDLESEX MEETING. ; and if the language atom- cl in tokles acceptable the cut House of Commons, the pl4n, hones; nfreehol..era-uf D llCCeLity to disguise their distant tart off` dig area. alf