Star. — London, England, 1817-03-26 00:00:00

oo discretion of a single Magistrate to prevent were bud of meeting for that purpose, he felt it bis dhoti to oppose the Bill. The LORD CHANCELLOR expressed his sa tisfaction at the declaration of his Noble and Learned friend, that he had changed his opinions with regard do a Reform in Parliament, or at least that he did mot hold his former opinions to the same extent. He •ths Lord Chancellor) had. throughout his political r re, held opinions dtiectly opposed to that of Re form, and in so doing had by some been considered fit error. He felt much satisfaction, therefore, at finding that his Noble and Learned Friend, for whose taunts and abilities he had the highest respect, was approximating to him. He was satisfied of this, that if his Noble and Learned Friend did not approxi mate to him, that he (the Lord Chancellor) should not be induced to give up those opinions against Par liamentary Reform he firmly and conscientiously believes to be right. On the preceding night, in the Committee on this Bill, a Noble Lord (Lauderdale) who, he hoped would allow him to call him his Friend, ?Had moved an Amendment with respect to lectures on the Physical Sciences. He supposed it was to this they were indebted for the learned dissertation they bail heard upon fire, water, and air. He could only say upon these subjects, that if it were possible, legis lation with regard to them might sometimes be very useful. For instance, there was then a large fire in the House, and it was frequently, both in the morning and evening, a great annoyance to him. He should be very glad, if by any clause in an Act of Parlia anent, that fire could be duly regulated, and whatever sect it might have upon the Constitution of the country, it was certain that the constitutions Of the first people in the State, who attended in that Houses were frequently much affected by eke heat of the finis and therefore it would be a great advantage if it could be done to regulate the fire by Ac{ of Parlia ment. With respect to air, there was a highly re-1 speetable and respected Gentleman in the House, he Ibirani the Cloak at the. Table, who, if one of the win dows was opened, would complain seriously of the anaoystace arising front the air, and would leave no means untried to regulate or shut oat the intruder ; as to water, be believed their Lordships had little to do with it, nor had his Noble and Learned Friend an, reason to quarrel with it. To be however very serious, be would say, that no man was more anxious than himself td preserve unimpaired the Constitution of the country, and the freedom of the people, and it was therefore he was friendly to the present measure. His Noble and Learned Friend and himself might differ as to the means, but in the end sought, they were both agreed, the object of both being the preser vation of the Constitution, and the real privileges of the people-- (Mow, hoar.) He (the Lord Chancellor) thought this Bill and the measures which had been passed, essential to the preservation of the Consti tution, not because he merely wished to preserve the Constitution ler a week or a month. or a year, but because lie was desirous of maintaining the Coned-, ludo° such as it had been transmitted to us by our ancestors, and handing it down unimpaired to our posterity. 'lite great principle of the English Con attrition, if he understood the Constitution at all, liras, that it preserved to every one the enjoyment of ntnitich_prectical liberty as could be possessed. But be teroild go hitcher, and say. when daisgart - arose which threatened its safety, that unless it were en dued with the power , of looking those dangers stem- . dily in the face, and grappling with them, it was formed in a manner that must ultimatek tend to its own destruction—it must have the fort ittiWto suspend liberty for a time, that liberty may be enjoyed for ever. That was the principle upon which the Suspension, of the Habeas Corpus Act had always proceeded, and that was the principle upon which the present temporary meissuses proceeded. The only queition was, whether the circumstances of the country war t' oiled those measures? He believed they did ; others might entertain a contrary opinion, and GOD forbid that he should quarrel with them for so doing. It bid been said, that the waiting laws of the country' , were sufficiently strong, if they had been vigorously eaftirced. He did not know that they had not been defy executed ; bat at any rate, he had only to cast lie eyes abroad, and see mischiefs threatening, evil Amigos at work, and disaffection active, tuffieient to call. for additional means of protection. Allusion had been made to the efficiency of instituting prose cutions for libel against those who uttered seditious language. and he was willing to admit that since the passing of the Libel Act, it was comparatively easy to carry on such prosecutions. But he felt, perhaps, little prejudice upon the subject of libels, from a CUM which he would state to their Lordships. When be became Attorney-General in 1794, his predeces aor handed over to him many prosecutions that had been . begun, and which he was left to carry on. He. &I so; and be not only proceeded in those that were tonintenced, but instituted many fresh ones. Nu one, he believed, had ever instituted so many prow anions for libels. He was speaking °lithe years 1794 and 1795. But when he sew that attemptii were Matti to destroy all the Conaitotectl.Anthorities of the land, to bring into cooteraPt and.,cgsgraco retry thing connected with our most sacred sod liberties, to overturn, in fact, the whole f a bric of the Constitution, he felt that the clinger was tat terlY beyond tine reach of such proceeding*. Yet no one s . ha apprehended, would say, that he was sparing of *e exercise of that power he then possessed ; be Mould be glad to hear some kind-hearted individual maintain that proposition, for never, he believed, was any one more abused than himself, at tbat period, for the prosecutions which he instituted. Petaled abuse, however, be never hreded, when -knelled against him tor the discharge of what he considered to be his duty. .He had never, in the course of his life, sought either to promote or repress the circulaH tioo of any publication consenting himself a but libels that affected the Constitution and the Govern tent, were of a different description, and he should .-be glad to be sheen how, at a time like the present, tyre most active prosecution of them could counteract se evils that menaced the Stem It was said, they • *Mold rather culeavour to conciliate than provoke. • Generally speaking, that doctri n e was good ; Not bow were they to conciliate those who asked foe no thing less than the destruction of the Contact:kips I 'Would they grant them their wish ? Treat slight conciliate them, but in a .very different man. Der, assn to a very digannt end; be appreneoded; fail wt was contopplitod by those who sum/cool dio Sala... we No* and Lorna Friend bad' feerad math fault With the clause which empowered a single Magistrate to stop say individual who was .propoonding matter that tended to bring the Govern ment into contempt. That power, however, might even now, be exercised by a common constable, and of mines should be granted to a Magistrate in parti cular circumstances. Besides. the Magistrate acted upon his responsibility, and Was liable to an action at law, if be unjustly exercised his authority. The only question for them to consider was, whether the pre sent measure was founded upon a manifest and just necessity in his conscience he believed it was, and therefore he should vote for 'the third reading of it. Lord ST. JOHN would readily agree to this Bill, if he could be persuaded that it was necessary. The first duty of every man was, to save the Constitution if he thought it in danger ; and for that purpose he would readily part with a portion of his liberty.— The question however, now was, whether such a sa-, erifice became necessary ? He was aware of the Re ports made by the Houses of Lords and Commons; but he must say, there was nothing in them which could furnish a sufficient ground for such a measure as this. He knew that the Habeas Corpus Act had been suspended in 1722, but no such proceedings took place at that time as were now resorted tot no sealed bag was brought for the inspection of a Secret Committee; the papers containing the documents on which the Suspension had then been moved for, were laid on the table in an open box for the inspection of all the Members; and then the House referred gum to a Committee, whose Report was entered on the ,Journals. That Report set forth most circumstan tially the designs of the Pretender against this coun try, Sir R. Walpole then did what the present Mi. nisters ought to have done; he raised the public cre dit, which.had met with a great shock incoasequeate Of the failure of the South Sea scheme; and on the want of which the Pretender had built kis chief hopes of. gaining the people of this country over to his side. Why, he would ask, did not the present Ministers follow that example, and remove the causes of pub lic complaint ? Why did they not endeavour to di. minish taxation, which was the chief muse of public distress and discontent ? Why was sot Parliament called together early in the season for this purpose ? Why had not the distressed state of :our trade been taken into consideration ? He would repeat it, and contend that there was no necessity for this measure, which would establish a terrible precedent for future Ministers. The very severity of the provisions con tained in it would prevent them from being carried into execution. A great and dangerous power was to be given to one Magistrate, and his discretion was to be final. This was a discretion which, in ordinary cases, had not been given to Judges, notwithstanding the high confidence so deservedly placed in them. The Earl of WESTMORELAND sad he was fully convinced that this measure was necessary. Stich measures bad often been resorted to before; the Ha beas Corpus Act had often been suspended, and the , discretion thereby given to individeals had never been abused. As a proof of this, a of Indemnity had seldom been asked for, and when it was it was always granted. A measure of this kind was more neces sary against a domestic than a foreign enemy, be caase'the latter could be opposed by open force; but a domestic was to be met only by extraordinary ri gour in the laws. He was surprised at the pleeedity •ith . which a Noble and Learned Lord (Erskine) contemplated and undervalued the dangers by which the country was encompassed. He would ask the Noble Lord how it was possible for him to read the Reports made by the Committees of the two Houses of Parliament, and shut his eyes against the dangers , by which the Government was threatened from trea son, rebellion, murder, and conflagration ?—(Hear.) How could he read these Reports raid not perceive that attempts had been made to corrupt the religion, the morals, and the allegiance of the country ; toge ther with a pretty little attempt to plunder the pro perty of the whole nation ? This was surely a much greater danger than any that could arise from it change of dynasty. The opposition that had been made to the Bill would go the length of saying that Parliament might safely repeal all the laws against crime, sad consequend be repeal of all the laws against treason would be the first boon granted to the Eng lish people, if the counsel of the Noble Lords opposite was to be followed. He denied that the mouths of the people would be stopped by this measure; it was by no amass a new measure, for similar ones had been passed in the reigns of Henry IV. Henry V. and Henry VII. and in those of Edward IV. and Edward V. and the want of such a measure was the cause of the misfortune which took place in the reign of Charles I. He would vote for the passing of this Bill in pity to the persons who might be made the instruments of wicked Incendiaries and traitors, and it was against synch persons only that the provisions of the Bill were directed. He would vote for it, because be was convinced that be should thereby pro. mote the safety of the Crown and the Parliament, and the good of the people. Earl GRQSVENOR said, he should not enter much is detail es this subject. Hest ndrrstoodshit it was the intention of Ministers to renew the,dneptsl sion of thir Habeas Corpus daring the sitting ot, Par liament. If such an attempt were made, he would come to town, although he might be subjected to ever so great an inconvenience, and give it his de aided opposition,. unless some extraordinary Stange took place before that time in the state of public affairs. With respect to what die Noble Earl had said re specting measures of thii kind in the early periods of oar Parliamentary history, there surety was no ana logy between the times of the Henrys and Edwards, and the present time. Nor was there any analogy. between the present state of things and those which existed in 1796. We bad no foreign enemy now; there were IN parties in the country plotting to bring over a &trigs army. Nobody entertained any fears at this time respecting *poison, who, like Prome theus, was chewed to a barren ,rock; nor was there any occasion to dread thar, in his son, the visions of Hamilcar respecting Hannibal were likely ever to be realited. The assertion that the powers granted by such Bills as these had never been abused, /as not correct. In order to shim how Magistrates might hereafter behave, he would notice a circumstance that took place about twenty years ago. A lar g e meet i ng bad been held in a field at Pancras. Sir William Addington, then Chief Justice at Bow4treet, a near relation to the Noble Secretary of State, and cert ain ly a very respectitbla Magistrate, was remarkably vigi bat In attending this )t.etiag. end in obeerving every thing that fen from the speakers. When one of the latter uttered these tineds--'s I will now give you the exposition of a Bow.street Magistrate." Sir W. Ad dington called out to the constables, saying, pull down that fellow 1" The speaker was aecordingly taken into custody; and this act of magisterial power was never after noticed in Parliament. After such an exercise of discretion, whn could say what Magistrates would not do, should the present Bill pass The Duke of ATHOL spoke in favour of the Bill. His Grace observed, that the distress of the country was certainly unprecedented during the period of years to which his experience extended ; but it was to be imputed not only to the cessation of the war ex penditure, but also to the unpropitiousness of the las _ . . season. The country, however, was rapidly return ing to its former state of prosperity, and this be at' tributed chiefly to the energetic measures of Govern ment. He would net have voted for the present Bill, if, in his conscieece, he bad not been convinced of its necessity. Lord AUCKLAND did not think that the netts. shy of the present occasion warranted the enactment of such a Bill as was now before the House. The only attempt made to •disturb the public peace had, failed. The outrage on the Prince Regent was din. mowed 55 4 ground for the Bill, and as for the stories detailed of the dangers arising from the existence of 'several clubs, he did not give them any credit. The great distress of the country may in some places have caused a little irritation,but his Lordship thought no cause existed for taking away every harrier between the privileges of the Crown and the liberties of the people. He was particularly averse to that clause in the Bill which empowered a single Magistrate to die. perse a meeting. It should be recollected that the Magistrate may act through wantonness and pens lance, and yet resistance to his commands must per haps he expiated by blood—(Near, hear.) Ministers had imputed the rise of the Funds to the passing of the Sisspeusion Act. This reminded him of the story of a traveller, who, ' having arrived late in the even ing at a lowa, and slept there, enquired next morning the name of the place, and was told Stoney Strat ford—" I am not surprised said he, for I never was more bitten with fleas in the whole course of my life." The application was as just in one case as in' the other. —(.4 laugh) The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM observed, ft was impossible not to admit that great danger existed in the country. It was no argument against the ex istence of that danger that no great or distinguished leaders ; appeared among the people. It was in a manner nearly similar that the French Revolution had commenced. It was tree, that revolution had been effectually put down, but he thought enough re mained of its ruins to :hew the materials of which it was constructed. He thought it his duty to warn their Lordships of any, even the slightest approach to such an unhappy hod destruitire state of society, and it Was particularly incumbent so to do when he recollected that that bloody period originated in dis tresses similar to those now existing in this country. The Government was then, as now, industriously viliced, the people were rendered discontented, leaden arose in quick succession, until one bolder than the rest assumed the sceptre, and bore down the liberties of the coontry...(Xear, hear).—lf it was true that there was but a sheet interval between the prisons of sovereigns and their graves, it was equally true that the distance was small between a Goverment vilified and a Government overcome. The labourers had been put forward as so many pioneers to open the trenches, and to mate way for the more skilful engi neer, who were loon to follow, in order to facilitate the conquest of the fortress which it was intended to attack. In 1794. the sane means were made use of for the same ends, and by the very same hands.— The clamour for Reform was then rlised, religion was scoffed at, the landholder was called a pest, and the fundholder e nuisance; the Crown was then in sulted, as it was lately outraged ; if, therefore, the same dangers existed then as now, why not apply to them the same remedies-1;4 hear, hear) t This Bill was not directed against the right of petition, but against the abuse of that right—against such meetings as were held in spa -fields and- Manchester—meetings against which the Constitution bad not provided, be. cause it never contemplated them. By the existing Law, it was true, that the Riot Act might b e read, and the meeting might perhaps be thus dispersed ;. but he contended that that Act was not sufficient to meet the evils daily witnessed. The Magistrates; would not quire, in fact, a much greater porti on o f power by t e present Bill than the Riot A ct lf a d actalready gm. By that Act any one Migistrate was empowered to enforce its provisions; and. in cue of resistance, to order the military to fire upon the people. One good effect of the law already passed was, that, in consequence of it, the meeting which had been called at Spa-fields for yesterday, did not take place. The real enemies of the people were those who, for their own purposes, urged them to abuse their rights ; thereat friends of thrpeople were ; those who wished to see those rights duly exercised.; For these reasons be.would vote for he Bill. . ~ ; The Earl of DARNLEY considered the Bill to tally uncalled for. The conspiracy against which it: was chiefly meant to operate, was contemptible in ite lorigin as well as in its porkers. Whatever insubeti dination existed was owing to the distress of the country, and would terminate with it. As to the attempt made to disturb the peace of the Metropolis, it had been frustrated by the Laws as they befora stood, and therefore he did not thick that any new Laws were necessary. i The Earl of ABERDEEN observed, that neces sity alone could justify the Bill before the House, and that necessity being prove 4 Le felt himself called upon to give it his support. As to the opinion of the coun try with respect to the expediency of this and the ether measures which had recently been adopted, i their. Lordships had received various and contradic tory statements, but from the result of his inquiry, and o o t ! m the eti o , h motee i w m a e s u l i led e n to a dand conclude,consi derate he had endeavou re d, by every means in his power, to collect accuratein t f that the judgment part of the people was decidedly in favour of the policy which dictated those measures, The Noble, Lords on the opposite side of the HoUte, were, how.' c e untno v iasu er tetur ; res i t f ovrowAt.f o wA p aprec i t n cc l n o sooce n nrdtt t di h nibetug at susw t t f r e onieorantath :t e po tt ece t s o cjd s : bit w d l i a iyme rra , allegedlani i a t t m a otuf a ß a jesc i r i ous k now n o l d ny o l.:o4i I : ti hill:►tei _ Mal 7 of the people Weil asi4elea, et, seeottli I le others, when we were on tIN elle of a revolution .—. but he submitted to those Noble Lords, whether it would not be better to adopt such a course with a view to prevention—with a view in due time to Ruard against such evils? Such prevention or guard 5...-. the object of this Bill, and therefore he most cordially approved of it. Those Noble Lords might, how. ever, boast, that this Bill, and the measures which it was meant to accompany, were unnecessary, if no actual danger should occur, which he trusted would be the case, but he would leave their Lordships to en joy the boast, and exult in the cry of victory. while he would applaud the wise providence of the measures which he hoped would furnish them with the occasion. With respect again to the amount of the danger, which some of these Noble Lords required to jeorif the adoption of the measures alluded to, namely, i.; . they should not be enacted merely because a mino . • of the people were disaffected, he begged those N o Lords and the House to consider, that as it sea., :t• _ disputably true that the greatest evils in all Revolu tions proceeded from the minority, so in hoist t.f energy and consequent power, a minority tni! - Itt by come the real effective majority of the coo •ty— (Hear, hear, hear.)—That great energy appear d t..i belong to some of those by whom recent tunr.thuoi.; scenes wete excited, could not at all be eloilbtes!. But it was said that those scenes were not the .result of any contrivance or arti6cial ertheinent, bur pro. duced solely by the extent of ti e public distreA. That distress he was ready to admit, L,nd he deptered its pressure as much as any man. 'rho: e, tvii,,iret, who promoted son.e late public meetings, had. he was persuaded, other objects in view than its reactor mitigation, and these objects ease the lime ;% c h a , ractertaed the same class of agitators on a ttirtElti o c . casion. On that occasion a Noble Earl opposite thought it his duty to support the Suspension . t t:,, Habeas Corpus Act, and on an occasion 3imilAr t the present. But yet that Noble Earl in this inst .nce opposed a similar policy, accounting for his change of opinion upon this ground, that the country wa s on that occasion involved in war, while at present it was in a state of peace. The question, however, was not whether the country was in peace or war, but whether it was not as desirable in the one case, as well as in the other, to deprecate and provide against such evils as anarchy, civil bloodshed aad conlusinn: and whether those evils were not as much to be apple. headed now as in the year 1794 : —(Hear, /roar.)_ The Noble Earl had dwelt much upon the grievances to which the country was subjected, and upon he dis tresses which the people suffered ; but he begged the Noble Earl to consider whether these grievances wete likely to be reduced, or these distresses alleviated, by involving the country in confession ? or whether such confusion was not rather likely to aggravate such evils ?—(lfeee, hear.) With regard to the observa tion. that Ministers should have had Parliament con vened at an earlier period, in order to consular ehe distress of the country. he thought that observatint, had been already sufficiently answered. But as to the distress itself, he had himself resisted is sem source of information within his reach, in order to 'ascertain the cause of its pressure; he had also, n;tti the same view, listened attentively to ev*y N..b1.: Lord who had spoken upon the subject, espocivily Irons the other side of the House.. When, however, he heard a Noble Marquis (the Marquis Wellesley) mate on a former evening, that the chstre,s of this country was owing :o the annexation of Genoa to Sardinia, aad to that of Lombardy to Austria, he confessed that be gave up all idea of accurate infor mation from that quarter—(A kink and Hear, hear! Ilp the ellititieterial Renate.) Ace' rding to his judg ment, one great cause of the distress. especially among. manufacturers atsd tradesmen, proceeded from the immense reduction of public expense consequent upon the peace, and the economic retrenchment of the Ad ministration; but still he trusted that his Majesty's Ministers would persevere in their system of retrench ment and economy, and they could not fail thus to ensure the approbation and grati•ude of every reflec ting considerate man in the country. The Noble Earl concluded with maintaining, that the Bill under consideration was calculated to guard against great and impending evils, while it in no degree tended to interfere with the subject's just right of petition. Earl GROSVENOR in explanation, observed, that his change of opinion with regard to the neces. sity of the measures adopted at a former period, and those at present proposed, did not rest solely upon the circumstance of this coisntry having been then at 'war, but upon this ground, also, that there were et that period persons us this country actually plottir.; with those who ruled the Government of Franct.. for the subversion of the Constitution of this counl7: . . while, as he before stated. the country was at pt.:- sent free from either of those evils. The Duke of SUSSEX said, that from the obser. rations of the Noble Earl on the opposite betict (Aberdeen), and those of the Noble Marquis on the bench below him (Buckingham), from both of whom be differed most materially, be felt it impossible to rgive a silent vote upon this important question. was attare, that from the opinion which any Not;:: Lord pronounced on this occasion, be would be con ceived to stand pledged for his constitutional (Ix• trines; and although he differed totally from Crog .liable Lords who occupied the Ministerial bcnche he felt conscious that hr was as strongly attached t' , the true principles of that Constitution as any jai.: dual among them. Upon the allusion. which been made to so many foreign topics, wiliich werr, in his judgment quite foreign to this country, and to ri question before the House, he did not propt:r.' dwell i but he could not forbear from ot.sziving, it was an egregious error to maintain, that no p-rco" of consequence or considetaLion were concerned '1 originating or promoting the Preach which seemed to be the conception of the Nob' i!. quis (Buckingham). It was notorious t tat 7: the ablest writers in France were on the sid of Revolution, while it was also seconded by ieve'l persons of high rank. There sees, illustrious Personage, he was sorry to sar, Plcu* liarly distinguished in prommirg that evert.- - Dot among the important objectiow to any Revolt' . don, it ought to be considered, with raped to 0.1 Individual, that no man engaged in advancirg such an event could •be aware of t he result or r hoger which his. onduct tended; so he thought that iod • vidual was rot at all aware of the con e,ue c:s font wei, or of the calamities in W h ch his multi' was p anti br 1.4m4 gliejiar a pv p o *iiing,