Star. — London, England, 1821-03-13 00:00:00

mtl He had to remark upon another observation of the Hos , m e mber opposite. That Hon. Member had doles incise • to the Mode of transacting public business at the Horse Guards ; but he added, that the Illustrious personage at the head of that establishment had made it his business. It was certainly true, that the Illustrious Personage in question had made it the whole business of his life to direct his personal exer tion, and his best understanding, to the good of the A r my which he had the honour to command, and eau indulged the noblest ambition of the human !w i n d —(year, hear).—lt was to the conduct of that ne es t r ious Personage that the country owed the pre lest admirable state of the . Army ; and without that conduct, not even the bravery or the genius of a Wel lington could have led it to succees—Wheers).—The Noble Lord concluded by moving, " That the land f orm of the last year, distingui shed into bodies of $1,468 Regulars and 11,691 M trines (exclusive of those in the pay of the East India Company), be ce,n fotated for the present year." Colonel DAVIES defied any m In to decide whether 'the statements of the Noble Lord, or Mr. Hume, wo e the most correct ; but he would say, that his Honourable Friend's statements were substantially correct. It was his intention to move that the Chair man should report progress, and ask leave to sit again, in order not to impede the public business,' but to move for a Select Committee to inquire into these estensive and important details. The Corie mittee would have to inquire into what he would contend were prima facie cases of abuse=, and probe and sift them to the bottom. How could they get at an opinion as to the number of men required for par ticular garrisons, withent br inging Officers from all parts of our European dominions. to examine them at the Bar on those points ? They could not tell the reductions in :.?..-ious departments, because they had not the Estimates heime them. He compared the amount of the Estimates of this year with those of 1819, which shewed an increase of £69,000, and yet this was called a reduction. The permanent charges amounted to £149,000 over those el 1819. Was e'iis not a matter which required inquiry? Every part Was now studded with Barracks, and in all cases where the Civil Power used formerly to be employed, there was now nothing bet calling in the Military. He coald shew that a considerable reduction might be made in our Military Establishment without dan r to our Coicraits. Would any man say that a stand ing army, amounting to nearly 100,000 men, was necessary in a time of profound peace ? Was this a time, when the People were bearing their burdens with unexampled patience, to increase the already intolerable weight of them? Such an army was not necessary among a People who took no advan tage of the drawing the troops to the Metropolis during the Queen's investigation—not even in those which Ministerswere pleased tacallseditious districts.' He contended that reductions 'might be made in the number of troops in the Mediterranean, in North America, the West Indies, St. Helena, &c. In 1789 there were but 18 regiments of Cavalry ; there were pow 29. Reductions might be made to the amount of 10,000 men, without injury to the public service. In the Cavalry there might be a saving made to the amount of £62,000. He would appeal to any mili tary man in the House, whether the Waggon Train was of any use in the time of peace? Supposing every Cavalry regiment to move at the rate of 100 miles in a change of stations, the country was at the expense of £4 a mile. He wished a reduction of 15 battalions to be made in the Regulars, which would be an amount of saving of £37.5,000 without re ducing the Veterans at all. He wished a:so the wend Majors to be reduced; and, altogetlyyr, his saving over that of the Noble Lord would amount to £181,003. He also uishee a greaser nuinLer of Officers to be put upon half-pay ; but that wherever a vacancy in the army should occur, it should hi 611 ed up out of Officers on half-pay. He intended to move an Address to his Majesty, that he would be pleased to give nu one a commission in his Army but Officers on half-pay. There was scarcely a de partment in the Army where he did not see the pos ibility of making salutary reductions. The amount ((salaries in the year 1796, in the office of the Secre tary at War, was only, £29,000.. It was now above £19,000; and he would ask if that did not demand inquiry? He called on every friend of economy to vote for the Committee of Inquiry, which he should propose to be composed partly of those opposite, those on his side of the House, and those of no party at all. Thus the Committee would be fairly and impartially formed. lie then moved " that the Chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again." Mr. DAWSON said, that in the -present state of the country, nothing but the most rigid economy, and even parsimony, could avail. The sum of £6,600,000 was much too great for the expenditure of the Army. It was impossible to go on under such a system : and economy was in no branch so desira ble as in the expenditure of the Army—(Hear, hear). He must declare that a great reduction might be made in the Army of Ireland. That country was now in a state of complete tranquillity, and there, was every reason to believe that state of tranquillity would continue; 20,778 men was too great a force for that country ; as there was a Yeomanry force that, could preserve the public tranquillity ! If it was said,' that such a force was to be kept up with a view to a future war, he must say, that the country was unable Is go to war; or, in the event of a war, he ousted de country would rely on its naval force. The Trade and Agriculture of the Country was in a most dis tiessed state, as appeared from the Petitions on the, table. He had heard with alarm some opinions de livered on the subject of the National Debt. One Honourable Member said, that it was impossible to' Pay the dividends; another said on that subject that I od inspossi6de nemo tenetur. This conflict between Use commercial and the agricultural part of the countrywas such as ultimately to threaten a c i v il war. Though he was not prepared to support the motion of the Honourable Member, he wished that a further reduction had been made. MC. MACDONALD said, that the impression elide on hii mind by the speech of the Member for Aberdeen had not been weakened by anything he had heard from the other side of the House. He was vete sorry he could not share in the tone of self-gra tulatke as sumed by the Noble Secretary at War.— lk hailed with much satisfaction that the Noble Lord Iti erre4 to 1;9'2, as on a former occasion he had said a refereace might as well be made to the Saxon Heptarchy. No one had cont'snded that the year 1792 was to be.the standard of the expenditure of the present year; all that had been said was, that we should look to that year in the expenses about to be incurred. On the subject of the Half-pay, not much was to be said ; but, GOD forbid that faith should not be kept with those who had spent the prime of their lives in the service of their country ; but with this or any other class, faith could only be kept by a system of strict economy. .He firmly be lieved the reduction to the amount stated by the Member for Abingdon, was perfectly practicable.-- It had been said that the pay of the soldier was double what it had been in 1792; but the pay of the soldier should bear a proportion to the wages of the labouring part of the community ; and the same proportion did not take place in their wages. The value of money had, by the measure of the re sumption of cash payments, risen twenty per cent. and he thought that the increase which 'load taken place on account of the depression of the currency, should be done away, and a diminution of ten per cent. might thus take place.—(Hear, hear). — On the subject of our forces abroad, and in the Colo nies, the superiority dour Marine rendered a small military force necessary. Did the Noble Lord see no risk from an excessive expenditure? He did not undervalue the importance of the Colonies; though, at the same time, he must recollect that they were free from that load of taxation which pressed so hard on the mother country. It had been said by a foreigner, that the moment England got a colony, she raised it, in point of expense, to the state of an empire. The expense of the new colonies was now greater than that of all the colonies before the war. The force of the garrison of Gibraltar might dis pense with any other force in the Mediterranean.— The remaining class of Estimates was our forces at home. The force of the country amounted to from 48,000 to 50,000 regular troops, exclusive of the Yeomanry and the Ve.erans lately called out without the authority of Parliament. If the system of taunt ing the People should be persevered in, not ten times the actual force would be sufficient to maintain the tranquillity of the country. If the affair of Man chester was meant as an experiment on the patience of the People, that hid amply succeeded ; a; also if it was meant to shew what a small military force I could disperse the largest unarmed multitude ! Amidst all the alarms spread by Ministers and their adherents, they disbanded the 11,000 men that they had raised without the least necessity, and then took the credit of economy—(Hear, hear, hear). — One point he must allude to, a phenomenon in the Police of the country unheard of before, that in the few cases - of mischief against the State, not a spy, hilt an instigator, in common with the Government, had been employed, and the Secret Committee of 1817 had declared, that men appointed to discover the plots of the disaffected had been active instigators. The recent case of Franklin chewed the extent to which this system had been carried. But it was not too late to cure the evils which the conduct of Ministers had oaused ; and, above all, much could be done by re trenchment, especially in Ireland. The Estimates appeared to be framed with a view to the possibility at least of resuming military operations on the Conti nent. But he must protest against such a possibility. The expenses of the war had amounted to 1,000 mil lions, and after such efforts, the country would, at least, require a century of repose. He would not appeal to the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) who, from his connection with German Diplomatists, was spoiled a , . a British Polit o ician—(A laugh). He appealed to the Gentlemen behind the Noble Lord. His eva- sions on the subject of economy must have convinced them that no economy was to be expected from him, if the Gentlemen behind him did not give the order foe it. As soon as his Honourable and gallant Friend's (Colonel Davies) motion should be disposed of, he would move that there be a further reduction of ten thousand men. In conclusion, the Honourable Mem ber adverted to die state of Ireland, which, he de- dared, was such as did not require the force at pre. sent kept up in that country. Mr. C. GRANT concurred in the opinion that Ire.. land was quite tranquil ; though, only a few months %back, when he had asserted that Ireland would con tinue tranquil, his Hon. Friend had aimed his shafts at his head, and launched his philippics at him ; but notwithstanding all the predictions of his Hon. Friend, he now admitted that Ireland was tranquil. Ile (Mr. Grant) was as anxious as any man could be, that the force in Ireland.should be diminished ; but that must be gradual; and the force this year in Leland was 3000 men less than in the last year. The principle of reduction was to be maintained ; but that reduction must be gradual. But the Hon. •Gentleman (Mr. I llawson) had not pointed out the practicability of a single reduction. He (Mr. Dawson) should have stated in whit part of the Military Estab . lisliment a reduction could take place--(Loud cheering). Sir H. VIVIAN lamented that in 1792 the country had not a greater disposable force, as part of the dis asters of the first year of the war might have been avoided. The events passing in Europe made the keeping up of a considerable force necessary. In the Cavali y, the reduction should be confined to horses alone ; and the skeleton regiments ought to be kept up. The half-pay of many Officers was not more than the interest of money paid for their commissions. The Medical Board had been exonerated from all blame, though he thought the expense of the Opthal mic Institution should be contracted. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said, that a base conspi racy had been formed against the character of Sir W. Adams, though 'he (Mr. Hutchinson) made no charge against the Medical Board. Mr. BARHAM observed, that as the Ncble Lord opposite (Lord -Palmerston) had given notice of his intention to move for a Committee on the subject of the Opthalmic Institution, it would be better to re serve any observations with respect to it for that occasion. Mr. BERNAL rose, amidst loud cries of " Ques tion r—He promised not to occupy the House two minutes; but as many Members had come into the House since the commencement of the debate, it was due to the honour of the House, they should be made acquainted with what was the state of the ques tion. The Honourable Gentleman then shortly stated the original motion, and the amendment upon it, then betore the House. The object of the amend ment was, to appoint a Committee to inquire whether a further reduction of the militat y istablishmentcould not be ef&cted. •Mr. BENNETT could nor 4ote three millions and a half of money, and 80,000 men,. without discus-, sion. One thin g h a d b een k ept out o f v i ew , w h et h er ; the country-could pay such a force. Ile was firmly ofopinion it could not. The Honourable Member then read the opinion of the Committee of 1817, re commending an approximation to the low expendi ture of 1792; and in that point of view he should vote for the reduction of the military force 10,000 men. Should the 1-louse tell Ministers that they would ll not vote such a force, the Estimates would be reduced ; and he conceived 15,000 men would be quite sufficient for Ireland. The proposed reduction could he made at home, without affecting the Colonies. There were 51,000 Militia, and 31.000 Yeomanry Cavalry, and 8000 Infaatry, and the whole amount of force was 1-68,(X)0 in Great Britain, 100,000 of whom could be immediately brought into action, and the rest in a very short space of time. He hoped for the sup pot t of the Member for Cork Castle, from what he had said on a former occasion. He could not see why a force should be kept up to protect old naval stores, as the Marines were sufficient for that purpose. Government had power over 100,000 effective men. Under these circumstances, he thought any timid persons might sleep in their beds, without any fear of being disturbed. If that house would look more on the People, and less on his Majesty's Ministers--(Near, hear)—he was sure the Noble Lord (Lord Palmei ston) would find means to cut down his E.,tablish ments. The countty was poor, and could not pay for these enormous Establishments. The table was loaded with Petitions complaining of distress ; and the question was, would the House of Commons sup port, in the only way they could, the Petitions of their cons.tituents ?—(llrar, heat). ..... _ Lord CASTLEREAGH would first state the mili tary grounds on which the. numbers were proposed. The increase for the old colonies was only 2000 more than in 1792, and the number for the new colonies was not objected to. The state of Naples had no thing to do with the numbers proposed to be volaed. The Noble Lord proceeded to comment on the pro posed reduction of 10,000, and contended that such a reduction could not be made consistent with the public services revived from the army—(Hear, hear). The 10,000 raised two years ago were now reduced, and not to be found in the Estimates. The force now in our Colouies was not more than sufficient for their protection. The Army at home was not more than 29,000,and if that number wasnow to be reduced 10,000 more, it would not leave 20;000, a number not sufficient to make the necessary change with the Colonies, to say nothing of the safety and security of ourselves at home. He contended that with the re collection of the recent disturbances in various parts, of the country, to make a redaction of twenty thou sand men in one year, and to leave the Executive with only 20,000 as a disposable . force, would be to risk Use safety of the Empire—(Hear, hear). The Hon. Member for Aberdeen had talked loudly of reduction ; and stated high-sounding numbers as savings; sometimesE3,ooo,ooo, sometimes£l,ooo,ooo; but the Hon. Member had not pointed out any specific brad on which any saving could be made. The House was now in a Committee, and if the Hon. Member had any specific reduction to propose, he had the opportunity, and the Committee could now. discuss it ; and if the Ho'n. Member could point out , any way by which a greater saving than that pro posed could be made, he (Lord Castlereagh) would adopt it most zealously. The lion. Member, how ever, should recollect, that the saving proposed to he made was 121,401,000, which would bring the Estimates within those of 1818, and within 1.36,000 of the Estimate recommended by the Finance Ci m mittee in 1817. The Noble Lord then adverted to what had been said ou the subject of public distress, and contended that Government had the greatest anxiety, from personal motives, to relieve, if possible, that distress ; and he asserted, that as great a reduc tion had been made in the expenditure as could be made consistent with the public serviee; and to hold out to the people the fallacious hope of saviug suffi cient to relieve the people, was to deceive them, and was what no fair or honest man would assert (Hear, hear); and wlenever he heard such assertions made, he would always protest ak,4inst them, as the language of inflammation, and not of argument. He was ready to meet Gentlemen in discussion upon principles of political economy, but he could not admit that making any saving out of the present expenditure of the country could be of essential service in relieving pub lic distresses—(Hear, hear). Mr. CALCItAFF replied to the Noble Lord; he denied that himself, or any of those who sat near him, made statements intended to delude the People ; but he was persuaded the Noble Lord must, by his conduit in supporting on all occasions the burthens under which the People laboured. He contended that £145,000 was the extent of the reduction which had taken place between the Estimates of this and the last year. He contended that, after a reduction of 10,000 men, the 20,000 would still be sufficient for all the purposes here at home, as every Military Officer agreed that 10,00() men were. sufficient to relieve the 50,000 men kept in the colonies. Ile (Mr. Calcraft) would maintain that the happiness, the comfort, the security, and the tranquillity of England, must be preferred to the maintenance of armies, or even of navies, greater than were abso lutely necessary. While, however, he advocated, and most zealously advocated, the cause of economy, he begged to say that he would be no party to reducing the pay of private soldiers, or the salaries of clerks in offices—(Hear, hear, front the Ministerial benches) —but he wished to see the Right Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side curtailed of their enormous emolument,—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition).— The Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh), continued Mr. Calcraft—the Noble Lord turns away from me. The Noble Lord smiled when I talked of keeping up the salaries of the Clerks—(Cheers); but he turns off when I come to the salaries of the Principals—(Cheers , and laughter).—lt was an ungrateful topic certainly, although he did not allude to the Noble Lord's salary, for he thought, candidly, that -men in his high situa tion were not overpaid—(Neae, hear).—The salaries in which be called for reduction were those to which additions had been made during the high prices of provisions, &c.—and perhaps he had been wrong in using the term " Right Hon. Gentlemen," for there was not, he believed, any Right Hon. Gentleman in that situation—((;heers). Mr. HUSKISSON agreed entirely with the Bon. Member who had last spoken as to the pay of the S Army and the salaries of the Clerks, sind also as to the qualification which—(Cheers and gietalasighter)— tbe qualification with which the Hon. Member had concluded his speech. The savings, however, recom mended by the Hon. Member, could not be attempted consistent with the public safety. The statement of the Hon. Member, that the saving amounted to only £140,000,.. was incorrect. The saving in the Army alone this year was upwards of £700,000. Ile then adverted to what had been said of the relief to the Garrisons in the Colonies, and contended, that afer another 10,000 was taken, as proposed by the Hon. Gentleman on the other sicte, it would be impossible to keep the reliefs. He had heard with great iatis faction, that there was not the most distant prospect of this country being called on to repel any attack from any party. But he could not sit by and hear it said that this country was not in a situation to repel force by force. On the contrary, no country on the face of the earth was in a situation equally capable lof defending itself, if called on so to do. Mr. MABERLEY defended the 'statement made by him on a former night. That statement had been described by the Noble Lord as a delusion on the Public : he denied the assertion. The names of those who supported his motion, showed his statement was not a delusion;.anctif the Noble Lord would consent to go into a Committee,'"4 pledged himself to show that £3,000,000 might be saved by redactions in col. lecting the Revenue, and in other branches of the ex penditure—(Hear, hear).—He had been accused : of wishing to cut down the allowances made to the of ficers and soldiers, and those who bad fought our battles and suffered in our cause; but he denied the charge. He was as little inclined as any *fair mild be to cut down the few comforts these persons en joyed. It was not the expense of the Army he com plained of, but the sundries attached to the Army.-- He had been called on to point out branches on which a saving might be made, he would name a 'source of saving ; namely, the Store-keeper's Office, which was attended with an expense of £55,000 a year. He had stated that 12'2,000,000 annually might be saved, and, if the Noble Lord would grant a Committee, he would undertake to prove it—(Jienr). The cries of " Question" now became excessively loud, and strangers were ordered to withdraw. The Gallery continued closed from half-past twelve till three o'clock. During the exclusion of strangers, several divisions took place, each of which was pre ceded by very warm disctissions, and repeated cheer ings from both sides of the House. Tie first divi sion was on the question of the Chairman's reporting progress ; the numbers were— For reporting progress Against it 95 - - • - 216 Majority - - —l2l A second division' then touk place on the motion for Adjournment— For the motion Against it 92 - '207 ntjority Three other divisions followed on similar motions. On the last the numbers wete— For the motion - - - - 60 Against it Majority - 52 At half-past two o'clock a sixth division took place on the question of the Chairman i eporting progres s — Ayes - - - - - Noes Majority - - —67 Seven other divisions took place on the same sub ject, of which the following ate the numbers:_ Ayes Noes. 95 11 i 92 9.09 62 220 60 212 48 158 45 162 47 164 At three o'clock in the morning, when strangers were re-admitted into the gallery,_tbe MeMbers of Opposition were occupying the seals of the supporters of Ministers, and rice versa. Mr. Hustit was speaking from . the Ministerial benches, and concluded his speeds by moving, "that the Act of William and Mary, fur the disbanding the Army, be then read." Alter a few words, in opposition, from Mr. MARTIN, the gallery was again cleared, and a divi sion took place on the question, when there appearid, Ayes 43 Noes Majority - —lOl Whilst strangers were excluded from the Gallery three other divisions took place. The numbers were, Ayes. Nuts. 40 1-11 38 38 - - It was now almost half-past four o'clock, and the candles having been nearly burnt down, lights were , ordered; but on the Messengers making their appear ance, they were told to withdraw, and Mr.LAAIRTON raised a question, by moving " that candles be excluded!" and anuther division took place: Ayes Dues 78 Majority for Mr. Lambton's Motion —lOB A question tending to another division was then about to take place, when the Ministerial side gave way, and the CHAIRMAN reported progress, and ob tained leave to sit again on Wednesday (to-morrow.) —Adjourned at a Quarter to Five o'Clock. PERIODICAL LITERATURE.—If some r. fond ad miters of depatled fame" are disposed to undervalue the more sold and connected literary productions of the preseht day, surely none will venture to deny our superiority in Periodi cal Literature. The present is indeed the age of Newspapers and of Magazines. Of the former it becomes not 13 to speak ; but what a 'contrast do the latter present to their predecessors. Instead of scraps of sentimental poetry and sleepy prose, lee have now Magazines containing such specimens of composition as would not disgrace the names of those who bold the highest . place on the records of literary celebrity, of original poet ry bE much elegance and striking power, and prose of much pori e r t , and occasionally of remarkable force and rtchnesi, o f ten convey ing the results of acute observation and correct thinking. When perfectian seemed to be so nearly attained, it would scarcely have been expected that an attempt at further advance would be made, This, however, has been done by the Conducts:WSW The Nero Monti:ly, Illegninc, a publication which now awaits justly entitled to the same distinction among Magazines that the koarter.* and Edinburgh sustain am o n g Reviews. Tge ginal articles, whether of an argumentative, critical, or humneoes description, are evidently front the pens of no ordinary writers, and we very sincerely congratulate the Public Orin the chzratter which this work seems likely to sustain, under the tilreedbn of Its p r esen t distlngUished Editor, Mr. T. Castrasirtt. • N GO Bastin I—Our Hibernian tiiends have already "got the entire of one al,ooo in the . present Lottery; and as the next Drawing is en the.day of `their tutelar Saint, next. Saturday, perhaps St. Pa trick may bless theist with one or more of the bats; alOOO that must be drawn that day. .~ i