Star. — London, England, 1822-02-19 00:00:00

ever, abstracted the Bill altogether from the Ifouse. Be (Lord A. Hamilton) had never been able to learn the true reason why that Bill was abandoned, but the pretext was, that another Bill had been prepared for the same purpose by an Honourable Friend of his.— A new Report, in 1818, had made it more impera tive than ever on Ministers to abolish the offices in question. The Bill of which he had spoken, was not only to abolish the offices in que3tion, but it was also to put an end to the sale of offices in the Commissary Courts. He would now proceed to state the reasons which induced him to ask for leave to bring in a Bill to accomplish these objects. Ile proceeded to thew that the practices complained of in the Reports, were in full activity in 1818. Great abuses appeared to exist with respect to the exaction of fees, and in some instances he had been given to understand fees * bad been exacted to an enormous amount, for the purpose of giving the parties a larger claim for com pensation. He hoped this would be remembered by use Learned Lord when they came to be abolished, as he trusted they would be shortly. lle proposed to move for leave to bring in a Bill to abolish them, and inadequate as he might be to frame a measure himself, as he had before him the Bill formerly intro duced on this subject by a Learned Lord, he hoped he should not greatly err. He would admit that some few of the parties whose situations would be done away by this Bill, might be entitled to corns. pensation, but the great bulk of them he was of opi nion were entitled .to no compensation at all. He was at a loss to guess on what grounds these offices could be defended. They had been reported as fit to be ai)olished fourteen years ago. Five or six years afterwards a Bill was brought into the House for that purpose, .and three or four years after that, a new Commission reported on them in the same way.— Why offices should be kept up in times like these which had been so repeatedly recommended for abo lition, he could not conjecture. The Noble Lord, after some further comments, concluded my moving " For leave to bring in a Bill to abolish the Inferior Commis sary Courts in Scotland." The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND con sidered the subject now before the House to be of some importance to the country to which hi belonged. Had the Noble Lord done him the honour to ask him what he purposed to do with respect to the offices in question, he should have told him, that before leaving Scotland, he bad been in correspondence with the heads of the Courts on this subject ; and further, that h ::ad considered it to be his duty to propose a Bill, vllich he should bring forward in the course of the present Session of Parliament. Such being his avowed intentions, he would put it to the Noble Lord, whether i: might not be advisable fur him to withdraw the present rnotion 6 and leave him (the Lord Advocate) to introduce the measure which he had framed to meet this evil? The Noble Lord bad thrown great Lame on Ministers for not attending to this subject sooner. He knew not what censure might be me riteJ elsewhere, but be was confident that no blame could, in fairness, attach to himself. When he came .into office two years ago, he found eight Reports, re commending the abolition of offices. It was hardly possible for any individual, in one Session, to attend to all of these. He bad taken two of them last year, those relatinglo the Court of Session and the Court of Admiralty. lie was prepared to take two more this year, and thus he intended to proceed, seriatim, with the whole. He admitted that some of the of ficers were entitled to no compensation, but others were placed in a different situation, and would cer tainly claim compensation. The total amount of the emoluments of those persons came to not less than lour or five thousand pounds per annum. This had been shewn by the persons themselves at a time when they were desirous of making their gains appear as low as possible. It was a very serious question for Mi nisters to determine, whether they should abolish offices which were not paid for out of the public purse, and charge the Public with that compensation which would be expected by those who at present held them, when they were abolished. He was of opinion that it would be better to abolish them gradually. To the officers connected with the Courti that could only ecover debts to the amount of £3.65. Bd. he should propose to give no compensation. In other cases some corn pensa: ion might be given. Here the Learned Lord proceeded to shew the advantage of abolishing the offices in question gradually, and appealed to the Noble whether he could be acquainted with all the details connected with this subject, so as to be able to proceed with his Bill to advantage, seeing it was tLe intention of Government to take it up in the course of the present Session? lie had only further to say, that no office in these Courts had been re cently given to any, but on the express understand ing that should a Bill like that now in contemplation pass, no compensation would be allowed to those taking office. Sir J. NEWPORT supported the motion, and hoped, in what might be hereafter done, no impro per compensation would be granted. Sir W. DUNDAS expressed his conviction, that those who had stepped beyond their duty to get tip a claim to large compe.tsations, would not be coun tenanced or protected. Lord A. HAMILTON, in reply, said, he could bye no objection to surrender this business to the Learned Lord, if he had a reasonable prospect that there would be a promptitude of action. He therefore wished the Learned Lord to let the present motion be carried, he (the Lord Advocate) taking upon him self to bring in the Bill. He (Lord A. Hamilton) would not again interfere, if he saw the matter likely to be attended to in earnest by the Learned Lord.— He insisted on the necessity of his having some pledge given to him on this subject, after the delays which had already taken place. He was glad to hear the Learned Lord say, that he considered it to be his duty to proceed to abolish these offices, but wished to ask how it happened that Ministers had not sooner disco vered that it was their duty to frame such a measure? The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND re peated what be had previously stated on the subject. He had a Bill in a forward state of preparation, which he pledged to bring in before the Easter recess. He thought the more regular way would be for him to move for leave to bring in this Bill when he was ready. Mr. PEEL begged to say, that•there-was one office which it might be necessary. to fill up, but if skis 'were done, it would be on condition, and the same condition would be attached to any other office granted in thaw Courts, that in the event of abolition 3 . . no contpeemtlos shodi I be allowed, even for the le , gal fees of *Sett. The SPEAKER tai f, no debate could then take place, in conformity with the strict rules of the House; but, if there was any misunderstandiat about the question now to be put, it might be fidlillte itmveni ence of the Hoase tha; explanation should be asked and given. Mr. BROUGHAM did not understand the ebjec- 5 of the Noble Lord to the proposition made by his Noble Friend. The Learned Lord seemed to think it would not be regular for the motion of the Noble Loro, for leave to bring in a Bill, to be carried. But in that House they had no Lord; of the Articles, as they formerly had in Scotland, whose duty it was to prepare all Bills. It might be more expedient, but it would not be more regular for the Learned Lord to bring in a Bill, than it would for his Noble Friend to do so. Sot his Noble Friend said, if the Learned Lord chose to bring it in, he would not interfere, un less he should see him relapsing into the inaction of his predecessor ;in that case he hoped he would interfere. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, it struck him that die course proposed by the Noble Lord was not that which was usual in that House, It was better that the Bill should be brought in by those who had opportunities of consulting together, than by those who were not very likely to concur in their views. He thought it might be better that the Noble Lord should Withdraw his motion ; but this was asked as a matter of courtesy, and not claimed as a light. Lord A. HAMILTON said, he had no objection to his name being left out. He did not wish to be connected with the bringing in of the Bill. - All that he wanted was, that the Learned Lord should let the present motion be carried, and take upon himself to bring in tree Bill if the House consented to it. Mr. TIERNEY remarked, his Noble Friend desired but a pledge that the subject should be promptly at tended to by the Lord Advocate, on the House giving him leave to bring in the Bill. The Gentlemen oppo site answered this by saying—" No, no; what you ask cannot be agreed to—you are on the wroug side of the House. If you" come over here and make your motion, it will be all very well."—ln fact, the case was this. The measure was admitted on all hands to be a good one, but it was not to be allowed to be brought in, because the proposition had originated with his Noble Friend: Mr. PEEL submitted to the House that the regu lar course was for the party who introduces a Bill, to move for leave to bring it in. This Bill,which the Learned Lord hael in preparation, might not follow the title of the Noble Lord. In the conversation which had passed, some little difference had appeared between them—the one wished for an immediate— the other, for a gradual abolition of the offices in question. When his Learned Friend said he would introduce a Bill, was it fair to throw that suspicion on him which agreeing to this motion would con vey ? The point was one of little importance, but he could not see any reason for deviating from the usual course. The SPEAKER remarked, the rules of the House were so wisely framed, that a departure from them for convenience generally produced a greater incon venience than i. had be n attempted to avoid. This was experienced in the present case, from the length to which the conversation had extended. He was now obliged to interfere. His apology to the House for letting it go so far was this—he supposed the ques tion put by the Noble Lord had been misunderstood.' Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON said, he would not divide the House, but he would let the motion be negatived. Mr. BROUGHAM suggested that a negative on the present motion might throw a difficulty in the way of the bringing in of the Learned Lord's Bill. The SPEAKER remarked, if the present motion were negatived, it could not prevent a similar motion from being offered when the House next assembled. A Bill once introduced and thrown out could not be brought in again that Session, but the question now before the House was only as to time, and the motion might be repeated.—The motion was then negatived. AGRICULTURE. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY having al ready troubled the House with his view of the pre- sent situation of the agricultural classes, would not detain them now in moving, that the Report made in the las: Session of Parliament by that Committee should again be referred to their consideration, to gether with the Petitions presented to the House on the subject of Agricultural Distress in the last and present Sessions. He wished to avoid saying any thing that might provoke a debate at this time on a subject of such complexity and importance, as he thought the question could be much more advan tageously discussed when brought before the House by the Report of a Committee of their own body.— He then moved— u That the Report of the Committee on Agricultural Dis tress, with the Petitions presented in the last and present Ses sions of Parliament he referred to a Select Committee to be ap pointed to inquire into the allegations thereof, and Report their opinions to the House." Mr. GOOCH wished to offer a few observations. He was desirous of correcting some of the misrepre sentations which had taken place respecting him at several Public Meetings. He had been described, net by name perhaps, but still so that lie was understood to be alluded to, as having brought forward this sub ject last - year, in collusion with the Government, in order to prevent inquiry. If he had acted such a part, he should have thought himself unworthy to represent that county which sent him to Parliament, or any other. Having been sent there to represent one of the first agricultural counties in England, he had believed it to be his duty when he saw their table covered with Petitions, signed by numerous members of the yeomanry of the country, all describ ing the existence of one unusual scene of distress, to call the attention of the House to it. Though little qualified to perform such an arduous task, he had determined on taking' it up as nobody else did.— He wished for that inquiry which had taken place, but which, he was sorry to say, had done little good. He had, in the first instance, thought it right to ascer tain his own strength, and the strength of those op posed to him. Peeling no wish to raise the landed interest to the injury of other interests, he had not anticipated much opposition from the commercial and manufacturing interests. After consulting those connected with those interests, he then went to the Noble Marquis to alc what the Government pro posed to do? The Noble Marquis told him Mu Mi. 775 , 97.;ZWV.....UP ,^ r ,ay , %snr -~, . • 'nisters would . slot oppose t 1 Motion for a CClll3lhtt las they felt foe the llittlAtiOfi of the agricultural:di as math as he (M r . G ooc h) could 413, He (. Gooch) then said to the Noble Miyquis. he was rather surprised that with these feelings they had not come fohward with some measures for their relief.-- The Noble Marquis said, that as a Minister, he had no right to bring forward a measure unless he could. offer a remedy, as he wished not to bold out a hope to the country which might not be realised. But, he added, ho would willingly attend the Committee, and give eveii aid in his power to the prosecution)of the inquiry. That pledge, in the Committee, the Noble Marquis had most fully redeemed. He had stated thus much to chew what his conduct had been, and he hoped he should not be again misrepresented.— Now, with respect to the Report of the Committee, he would say, that to him it appeared worse than useless. This might seem strange, coming from the Chairman of the CoMmittee from which the Report had emanated, but he believed that. it had thrown .dust in the people's eyes, instead of opening them, and that it would not afford them relief or anything !else. Perhaps he might be allowed a few words on 'what had fallen from the Noble Marquis on F:iday. No man had more at heart the welfare of the landed interest than the humble individual who then ad dressed the House. His duty, his inclination, and his interest, all led him that way. • He thought the statement of the Noble Marquis (the Marquis et Londonderry) in many respects most satisfactory.— He begged to congratulate the House on the,state of the finances of the country. It was a most gratify. ing circumstance to find that we were in posses sion of a clear Sinking Fund of more than five mil lions. For the general welfare of the country, it was . necessary that public credit should be secured— (Hear, Istar).—Nothing could tend more to the relief of the country than thus improving and strengthen ing public credit—(Y ear, hear).—But when he came to speak of what the Noble Lord had said on the sub ject of agricultural distress, he should not speak truth, if he were to state it to be his opinion; that it would prove satisfactory to the landed interest. • He thought they, would be discontented because more was not done ; but it was one thing to say, that what had been proposed was not sufficient, and another to point out that more ought to be done. He did not see what more could be done; but he was most anxious to see as large a diminution of taxes as could Ise made consistent with the maintenance of the great interests of the country. The question then became one of quantity. He was one of those who did not wish the numerical strength of the army to be more diminished ; but he wished for further reductions in the civil departments of both army and navy. When the estimates came before the House, he would vote for such reductions as he thought would be proper. When he looked at what had already been done, in the course of the Ses sion, he congratulated the House on the system which had been opened. He explained the circumstances which, in the last Session, had frequently prevented him from being in his place in that House. He con gratulated them on what had fallen from the Noble Marquis. He hoped to GOD that he would follow up what he had then stated, and he implored all sides 'of the House, at this important juncture, to forget party feeling, and, bearing in mind those words which they heard so often, "lay aside all prejudices and par tial affections," and unite with but one object—the good of their country. Sir J. SHELLEY said, the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down seemed surprised to find how much the Noble Marquis had done. He also was surprised, but in a different way—he was surprised to find how little the Moble Marquis had done. He thanked the Noble Marquis for taking off the Malt Duty, but was sorry to see him giving £3,000,000 to that fallacy the Sinking Fund. He would not dwell on this sub ject now, as a motion, on Thursday, would bring the Sinking Fund before the House. The diminution of taxation was called for by the whole country, add' in his opinion the Noble Marquis, in bolstering up the Sinking Fund, protected the monied interest at the expense of the agriculture of the country, and there fore he was not satisfied. Mr. WODEHOUSE rose to put a question to the Noble Marquis, which he had no doubt be would an swer, but first he would offer a few words to explain the principles which regulated his own conduct. He did not hesitate to declare that in his view of the subject the Government did not go sufficiently far to relieve the landed interest, but he was equally free to say, that the measures they had devised, when in the fair course of operation, seemed to him likely to prove extensively beneficial. He highly complimented an Honourable and Learned Gentleman and a Noble Lord for the view which they had taken of the agri cultural question, and proceeded to shew how much happier the cultivator in England was than the cul tivator in foreign parts, where the former was a slave, or so oppressed by feudal exactions, that his state much resembled that of slavery. He had now a question to put, and the House, when he mentioned it, would recal a debate on the subject of prohibitory laws, the principal part of which • lay between Mr. W. Elliot and Mr. Horner. Such a subject cculd not be in better hands. Mr. Horner contended, that where there was political danger, prohibitory laws were justifiable, and Mr. Elliot could not conceive that political danger could be consistent with com mercial safety. He now wished to obtain a distinct answer from the Noble Marquis as to the part which Government meant to pursue—the principle on which they meant to act. lie skewed the import ance of the questions by describing the agricultural distress now existing, and then called the attcu tion of the House to the sentiments put forth in a former Report of one of their Committees, which he regarded as a demi-official document. The Ho nourable Member then stated, that he understood a Right Hon. Gentleman on the floor (Mr. Huskisson) to be the author of the Report of the Agricultural Committee, or at least that it had his full concur rence. He begged the House to allow him to read some passages from that Report. llaving done so, the Hon. Member inferred that they were at variance with the Right Hon. Gentleman's declared opinions' upon former occasions, and contradictory in their own nature. His object was to know upon what prin ciples they were to proceed? He believed that no one would attribute to him the-wish of exciting angry discussion upon this topic; but the deplorable state of necessity to which they were now reduced, 'rendered it imperative.that something should be done without delay. He believed that no one doubted the talents . • 1 7V 4 of the light Hens Gentleman below Mm, *ih M!? teie must remember the celebrated peroration to his speech Upon the Corn BBL in which he called upon 4f t : h rr ed esmet l sr o n u ifi se l apl t al o rct p liac a su s ses s i l't, r: but n° H t e assale certainlymla e a d s u d t r o i e d b r e w ifi u t tr ing hearti reconciled;the to and if, contrary to his misrepresentedasodarlmore ready o7 t h aesdd e t nyf ß oot i rgsot r e li ef h mischievous e Hon . st i 0 rim G g d Peh rights t t ilel intention,en l e all d i i 1 renxDoir DAVENPORT o h v nle ar t ds could t aix ; on had ces 6s si i v r e 'D ta . Mr. CURWEN was afraid, from the views of the Noble Lord, that much would not be done in the present Session. It was the duty of Government not to send the subject to a Committee. From the di versity of opinion in the Committee. no good was to be expected. He (Mr. Curwen) admitted that the diminution of the Malt Tax was a great boon. TO take offfhe taxes on barley, salt, and leather, would be a relief of tweuty per cent. In the meantime, let us have a few more millions in the way of reli e f for the plans of the Noble Lord were wholly inade. quate. Any plan to take off the surplus produce would be highly advantageous both to 'the grower and manufacturer of corn. He was surprised at the language of the Member for Sussex, ay had the Coupe try Gentlemen been united, they would have coma pelled the Ministers to make the necessary reductions, Had Government given up twenty per cent. in that way of relief from taxation, that, joined to twenty pet' cent. from the landlord, would amount to forty per ceitt. and with such a reduction the country could go on. He (Mr. Curwen) had that day seen one thou sand head of cattle driven off from Smithfield for want of buyers. "He hoped the Committee would make a Report before Easter. Mr. BENETT (of Wilts) hoped the Noble Lord would be more explicit as to his plan of relief. What had the Agricultural Committee to inquire into ? The Corn Bill had been most destructive both to the agricultural interest and to every other class of the community. He was not an advocate for high duties, because he was no friend to high prices. The present system of taxation fell with tenfold more pressure ou the poor than the rich. The' poor consumed as much salt as the rich ; but on them it fell with intolerable pressure. One plan was to support the Sinking Fund, but that Fund he had always regarded as a delusions As to the loan of money to parishes, in aid of the Poor -rates, he was sure no parish would borrow mo ney on such terms. The reduction of Is. on the Malt Tax would have but little effect in the way of relief. The first cause of the public distress had been the suspension of Cash Payments, for which no adequate cause existed. He had no wish to interfere with the law by which the country had returned to Cash Pay- ments. One mode of relief had been overlooked , that from economy and retrenchment. No reduction of rents could save the tenantry of the country. The lands of the country were not mortgagel f(-.r the whole of the National Dabt, though he dlumated they were mortgaged for a part. llc (though a landholder) must admit that the landlords were suffering whet they deserved, as they had supported all the Tory Administrations for the last 50 years. Mr. STUART WORTLEY said, - that he had heard the Noble Marquis with much pleasure one former night. He felt no-shame in having supported the Government during the war. He- believed that war had been for the liberties of Europe ; and but for it, he believed, we should have been a province of France. When there was a fund of five millions above our expenditure, this was a most satisfactory circumstance, whether applied to the Sinking Fund, or to relieve the present distresses. He had heard with much satisfaction that retrenchments had been made to the amount of two Millions ; though he trusted his Noble Friend would nit stop there. He felt no satisfaction at the proposed loan in aid of the Poor-rates. The object of the Committee would be to prevent the excessive importation of foreign corns He should have failed in his duty if Le had not stated his sentiments to the House—(Cheving). Mr. RICARDO could no: agree with the last speaker as to the satisfactory statement of the Noble Lord. A Sinking Fund, if preserved entire, would be of the most beneficial effect ; but after the expe rience of Sir. Robert Walpole's and Mr. Pitt's Sink ing Funds, 00 hopes could be entertained of any good result: in a few years the present Sinking Fund would experience the fate of all its predecessors. He had said that the fundholder had a fair claim on all the property of the country, and he was still of the same opinion. Instead of being in a state - of distress, he looked on the country as in a state of great prospe- rity. It was not above a yehr ago that they were told of. the manufacturing-and commercial distresses, but he then predicted that they would Improve, and they had improved accordingly. At the same time, he was averse to the Corn Bill, and hoped they would soon find out a sure method of fixing a fair remu nerating price for Agr:cultural produce and labour. He warned the Bank against issuing four millionsmore of gold on Exchequer Bills, unless they were sure of having plenty .of coin to carry on the currency of the country ; but if they had 'not that it would be dan gerous ; and though he allowed that they had made a great effort, and though he believed them most honourable men who were at the head of the Bank Direction, yet he did not think them calculated to carry on so difficult and intricate a measure as at tempting to alter. the value of gold. If the Bank had continued to pay in bullion, as he had proposed, till 1825, they would have kept back still longer, with. , out any inconvenience to the country, the necessity of recurring to payment in gold coin. He was stir , prized to have heard, on a former night, the Honour. able Member for Chichester supporting loans on the security of corn or parish rates. Ile (Mr. Ricardo) should shut the door against a producer who cams plained that he could not obtain a remunerating price for his commodity, because they should tell him to regulate his produce according to the demand for it. On the contrary, their door should be open to the co.' • plaints of the consumer, for all the taxes weighed on him. The taking off part of the Malt Tax would benefit him more-than the agricultuihl prodOie of the nation. And so with the taxes on salt, soap,. and in deed it would go through the whole ranged' tam ors It had been injuriously said of - him, that lie had said in-that House, that the taxes were a benefits On the contrary, he had always said that the cases were-ae e s t i a y t t e o o t f h d e h sa tre m s e s, si t t h u e a y , should not B u c t d e m v e e lion as we were in before the war. It was , howester , our duty to make instant preparations to return t o it. even in e l k h i e n presen tmediat ~-~ Pir 1 . . , 'r" -- 1