Star. — London, England, 1822-04-23 00:00:00

• earth ; and Itsovrtng the collo:Wee of Parliament to be withdrawn from their Government, was it likely such knowledge would induce them more readily to return to their obedience, if it did not prompt more determined acts of insubordination? If he had fol lowed the Right Honourable Baronet correctly, he had ascribed the whole of the evils now -afflicting Ireland to three principal causes,—first; Misgovern ment ; secondly, the efforts made to raise the retenue ; and, thirdly, the tithes; and he believed he had'ulper added to these, that the settlement of which he'said ought to be the corner-stone of all that was to be done, the Roman Catholic question. He' thought these were au the grounds on which he had touched. To enter on them then would compel him to occupy more of their time than they would wish to be' so occupied, and much more than he was dis osed to take up. The question on the Roman Ca tholic claims must, at all events, be considered bne that ought to be reserved for a separate debate. It was not one that could be incidentally discusied (Hear, hear).—lt was one that affected not Ireland' alone, but the whole empire, and when entered upon, a fair opportunity ought to be afforded to those who differed on it, for stating their opinions as to whether the present system should be continued, or some'other code substituted for that which was at present in force? With the present disturbances in Ireland that question had nothing to do. He was one ofthosel who was led to believe, from all the inquiries he had made on the subject, and he had taken much paid, to obtain correct information, that the present dis rurisances did not originate in anything connected with the Catholic Claims, nor did he suspect that their 1 termination at all depended on the settlement of that question. It might be, that in the course of the dis turbances. some indications of religious hostility had been manifested. The Protestants forming the higher, the Catholics the lower classes in Ireland, it was natural that at such a period they should feel exaspe rated apinst each other. The one class looked with envy at those who were richer than themselves; the other with indignation at those who appeared anxious to form a conspiracy to transfer from the right owners to themselves the property of the country. These feelings must naturally lead to some spew of religious hostility, but these were not the causes of the present disturbances. He believed every one who went into the histor) of Ireland would see that all the evils now complained of sprang from the early misgovernment of Ireland, he might say their cause was to be found , in the original conquest of the country. -That con quest had differed from the conquest of any other country. There had been no attempt on The part of the conqueror to conciliate the conquered, or to amalgamate them with their fellow-subjects ; but the policy pursued had been that of dividing them, and thus the foundation of future discord had been laid, and the original cause of quarrel had been carefully hanJed down from father to son. This practice had been adhered to through many ages, and there were those who now considered it as incumbent on them to take up the 'quarrel as those had done who were originally aggrieved—(Hear).— It would surprise those who had not attended to the documents—the denunciations of various kinds put forth in the course of these proceedings:— to find how the parties harped on that period when the name of an Englishman was unknown in Ireland—when Ire land, as they supposed, shone as an independent na tion, the glory of the world, and superior to any other nation in the world. To the original error of the first conquerors of Ireland, he mainly attributed the evils now the subject of complaint. He thought it would be clear, though errors might be imputed to the Eng lish Government, that in latter times much of the difficulty of Ireland had grown out of the habits of ' the natives, from the difference of feeling between this country and that, and from the embarrassment which the Legislature had felt in applying laws framed for the government of one country to the peculiar cir cumstances of the other. The Right Hon. Baronet had spoken on the subject of the revenue raised in Ireland. He had, however, supplied in the course of his speech, a solution to the argument raised on the heavy burden thrown on Ireland. He had said that Ireland was too highly taxed up to 1817, and that this drove the native Gentry from that country to England. But the Right Hon. Baronet, though he sheered Ireland to have been charged with two seven teenths of the burdens of the empire, and though That might be too large a proportion for Ireland to bear, he took away that argument altogether, when he ac knowledged that this country had taken upon herself the debt incurred on account of Ireland to make up one seventeenth of the proportion charged upon her which she was unable to pay. But when it was said that taxation in Ireland forced the Gentry of that country to seek refuge in England, he would remind the Honourable Baronet how incalculably great the weight of taxation had been in this country during the war to what it was in Ireland, and ask if any man, from such motives as the Right Honourable. Baronet had supposed, could have been induced to take up his residence in England ? The argument to account far the absence of the Irish Gentry, it ap peared to him, was wholly incapable of being main tained. The question with respect to tithes, which had been touched upon by the Right Honourable Baronet, was one which appeared to him (Mr. Goul burn) to demand a separate consideration.— This he thought was the view which the Right Hon. Baronet took of it himself, from the short and suc cinct manner in which he had noticed it. He would agree with the Right 1-lon. Baronet, that in respect ing the rights of the Church, they ought not to for get the rights of the People; if by this lie meant that such a settlement ought to be made as would do jus tice to both. In considering this question, it was proper to remember that the right to tithes was as sacred as any other sort of property, and the princi ples on which they acted with respect to tithes they might be called upon on a future occasion to apply to every other description of property. With respect to the oppression complained of from the tithei being collected by another party in the name of the Church, if that was a reason for invading the Church, he would ask the Irish Gentlemen if there were not one that might at once be transferred from tithes to landed p.operty ? They must be careful that they did not adopt a principle which woul:i lead to the general invasion of property, and which would pros . duce a degree of confusion and disorganization far heyon.l what could be occasioned by any other means. This question was one of those that were most diffi cult to tree. The complaints of those concerned in oitinssimy the LymeisOK Pr i iests _ .aat there .41 in "attY wart fleeted with the ptaitic a llelertise otifterhin any form' that wit 'Skit 'the' sabject';‘Orebi!iplalfit e — The change which had been experienced .111 Ireland as in England, since the termination of the war, had produced distress in v ar i ous p arts ; ind dioadiction once roused, it baroeed itself ready there s here, to lay bold ofanyllipic of complaiiit 'to influence the minds of any particular class; and taxes, tithes,lmil rent were indiscriminately seized on for that pas% pose. Having disposed of the two important branches' of the question, it only remained for him to 'allude to what had been she conduct of the Goiernment land;'and to its intentions for the future. When the' Government arrived in Ireland, the Period 'Was not one of the most auspicious. The disturbances and tumults which then prevailed were Each as had not been known for a considerable time past, and such as ultimately broke nut into- open insurrection against the laws and Government of the 'country. It there fore became the paramount duty of the administrators of that government to turn then. first attention to the suppression of those dangerous outrages which me naced the country with ruin. It Was true that at present those outrages had been in some parts sub dued; but the House would deceive themselves if, because they did not now prevail to the same extent in the counties of Cork and Limerick as before, they concluded that the evils had been entirely removed. Partial tranquillity, he was happy to know, had been brought about ; and if they meant to make it general and universal, they must pursue the course which had already been attended with this partial benefit.— The measures which Parliament thought it wise to adopt, had been attended with the result of driving the disaffected 'and the turbulent to more distant parts of the country, where their scenes of atrocity were repeated, not certainly to the extent to which they were committed in Limerick, but to such an ex tent as would demand the continuance of those mea sures until they were exterminated altogether. He could not better deicribe the state of the South of Ireland, than by stating that there was no county in which the Police was sufficient to protect the peace able; and that in five counties the Insurrection Act , was enforced. It was only yesterday that he had re ceived letters informing him of the perpetration of two murders (in the county of Kilkenny), which cor. respond precisely with the character of those hor rible atrocities which had occurred in other parts of the country. One case was that of a servant serving a particular fanner, who had incurred the displeasure of the wretched and deluded people. He had been served with a notice not to continue in the service of his master, but the unfortunate man was unshaken in his determination, and the next morning he was shot in open day by persons who had been lying in wait for him. He could sincerely assure the House, that however much the attention of the Government had been occupied by an incessant anxiety to provide for the safety of the well-disposed, and to answer the calls of the resident Gentry, whose property and lives were in immediate danger, yet, nevertheless, they had not neglected the consideration of the topics alluded to by the Right Honourable Baronet, and of others not less important to the interests of the country.— The Noble Lord, at the head of the Irish Government, had applied his great talents most anxiously and un ceasingly to the investigation of the causes of the un happy state of society in that country. Even before he (Mr. Gonlburn) left the seat of Government, that Noble Lord had proceeded to a considerable extent in his inquiries and investigations. But when the Right Hon. the Attorney-General and himself were absent attending'to their duties in Parliament, the difficulties of communication, and of acquiring information, were increased, by the entire administration of the Govern ment falling upon that Noble Individual. If, under such circumstances, the Government had not ventured Ito propose, or were not prepared with, measures to remedy such vast and deeply-rooted evils, it could not reasonably be imputed-to a want of disposition or desire. He assured the House, that the Govern ment had the whole of these topics under its most attentive and anxious consideration ; and when they should have had the requisite time for duly consider ing and making up their minds upon the measures they should recommend, he should be prepared to state them to the House, and, he trusted, to give not unsatisfactory reasons for their necessity. He trusted also that they would be such as to remove the cen sures which the Right Hon. Baronet would cast upon the Government. At the present moment, he was quite sure that it would be as impolitic as unjust to send out a Government, under the peculiar cirtum stances of the times, and not to give it confidence even for doing its most paramount duty, namely, that of attending to the best interests of the People— '(Chcers).—The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the previous question. Mr. N. CALVERT was in favour of this motion., With a population of two millions, Scotland paid four millions of Revenue; and Ireland, with a population of seven millions, only paid the same; while she, ought, from her superior population, to pay twelve. Mr. T. S. RICE contended, that by the Address moved by his Right Hon Friend, no censure was thrown on the Irish Government. Extraordinary powers had been entrusted, at the commencement of the Session, to the Irish Government; and it was the duty of the House to see how thesb powers had been employed, and whether some measures of a different character might not be mixed with them. Great Britain and Ireland formed a melancholy contrast.— In the one case, equitable laws had been equally and impartially administered - but could that be said in the case of the other, duripg the operation of the laws against Popery ? Till 1782, Ireland had no ,Constitution; till it had been acquired by theeloquence and perseverance of an individual (Mr. Grattan). —He gave a Constitution to his country which would have been its blessing, had not the Govern ment interfered and destroyed the materials of which it was composed. The name of Grattan was only second to that of Washington. •When he had estab lished the Constitution in 1789, the Government pet= verted the principles and the 'integrity of the toicr houses of Legislature. The honours of the one were employed as the means of corrupting the other. The Tenth Report of the Commissioners for Inquiring into the State of the Feta of the Coats of Sustito in by leery thot the present GovertlO4Cl disposed to follow in . the old cnurte. When 'the time of T gromiie fly Ireland was to cotze, i fso . ey were a l ways met *kb the, raritkiel of What wad be done.. They had d o n w ev as tt ab .ye ti t ut lie l n were eletli/1 had that there *ai iioting,Secretary d a tt e r a tZeth iiih firt ed. g;* which soinething !They' still heAid the song of " Yining* r' am, 'and - sete"afrald," and still the day of premise appeared to be far distant. If they Caine foriiird with it in a tithe'orine . speritr, they *retold Bid the people were happy, prosperOdS; and contented, and wanted nothing more. If they applied' nder circumstances of distress, and conse, quentlisturbance, they were told that Was not a pro. per tithe. for making concessions. Night and day was the same to them ; their prayers were never to be heard— " Naos Noe sit perpetua una dennienda. " —But he would *caution Hon. Members against per severing in a.course which might bring the people to despair. They were bound to sue ;very power which GOD and man had given them, to.restore the unhappy and afflicted people of Ireland to their right , ful state of comfort and of order. But without that. he would never be a party to it. If Hon: Gendemeu opposite harbOured conciliation any Where but on their lips, they could not refuse this motion. Every Irish Member, on what side soever of the House he sat, bad concurred in reprobating the system of tithes. In Ireland no tithes were paid on pasture greUnds, 'so that, while the rich were exonerated, the load fell with additional weight on the poor. He was able to state that there were 8,000 schoolmasters in Ireland, but in one of those schools the life of a noted robber was used as a class book, who seemed to be the pro totype of the noted Captain Rock. No man could be committed by acceding to the Address, which had been brought forward in the spirit of confi dence alone—( Loud cheers). Mr. C. GRANT stated that he should vote against the motion, but not with the view of rejecting the discussion of the subjects alluded to. The Irish Go vernment were as much pledged as the House could be by assenting to .the Address. He knew that the Noble Lord at the head of the Irish.Governrnent, and his Right Hon. Friends the Secretary and the Attor ney-General for Ireland, had given the subject the most serious consideration. In 1785 a serious dis turbance had broken out in Munster, which was caused chiefly by the system of tithes. The County of Limerick had been the scene of this hostility ; and in one instance it was carried to such an extent, that one Gentleman was persecuted because his ancestor was supposed to have betrayed his country at the battle of Attgrim. He believed that the agents of certain estates in Ireland had stirred up the people by inducing them to resist, perhaps, unlawful demands. How was it that evils, •arising from local causes, so suddenly spread throughout the country? He be lieved that the cause for this was the general abject state of the peasant:) , of Ireland. He believed that eneral necessity prevailed in Ireland ; and though he knew that had not been overlooked by the Govern ment, still it required more attention and investigation. In the year 1807 Lord Clare declared that there was not a more debased population than that of Munster. This made them ripe for the contagion of plunder and disaffection, when times of temporary' distress came on. He took the liberty of suggesting to the landholders of Ireland whether they should not en deavour to inspire their tenantry with that love of comfort and independence which prevailed among the peasant!) , in England. Everything, in his.opinion, was to be effected by the gentlemen of Ireland. Ile knew that the landholders of Ireland were as willing to lower their rents as those of England. Still, in many cases, that had not been done by thenmelves, but left to their agents, who, without their know ledge, ground down the poor. .He. praised the con duct of the Duke of Devonshire tbwards his Irish tenantry. He pretested 'against any such opinion as that the commutation of tithes was elillthg in ques tion the rights of the Church. He maintained that it was not the duty of Protestant Clergymen, when inducted into livings to begin by quarrelling with their flocks. The mode in which tithes are col lected was most grievous to the people—(Hear).— He did not blame Clergymen for employing e:ther Farmers or Proctors, because no Clergyman could look after such things; but he found fault with the way in which that tithe system was conducted by the Proctors and Tithe Farmers for the purpose of keeping up a constant irritation among the peasantry. There was a deep tense in Ireland that the laws were not intended for their protection. Though this gave them a distrust of the English Government, yet it did not lead to any wish to revolutionize the country. The many times the Catholic Claims had been re jected gave increase to this distrust. In the time of Jamest Sir .I. Davis wrote his excellent work, in which he states - that the Irish had no confidence in ' the English laws. In the disturbed state of England almost the.whole property of Ireland three times changed masters: Besides this, let them look at the, long codeof Military laws that had been enacted by this country against Ireland. • In England we had a substantial body of Yeomanry ; a resident Gentry ; a vigorous Magistracy ; and equal laws promptly and efficaciously administered. Not so in Ireland. It bad been said that there were eight thousand schoolmasters in Ireland ; giving to these fifty scholars each, there would be four hundred thousand under tuition ; but their elementary books were such as to foster the ar dent and romantic love of danger, so natural to an Irishman. He thought there were great faults among some of both the Protestant and Catholic Clergy of Deland. The Magistrates, he believed, were anxious to do their duty ; but they had been deficient in activity. —The Government of Ireland, up to 1782, was one supported by extrinsic aid, and one never forced to depend on the love and confidence of the People.— Its only . reliance for support and aid was on English fotce and power ; atid he %viand venture to say, that without those there was not a period from the days of Henrj VIII. up to that time; in which the Govern. meat of Ireland could have existed for a single month, But what remedy could the Government interpose in the private regulations of a Gentry, or to 'relieve Ns albject stag of the peopl4 of Ireland? He *Old, pleasing; . it they could not expecato : .ti n s p i p . ea " Ch i wcileithiel'ppleenrerres4,lnwhaliclhpawrt"ifoilf e4ltheithal,eartlhde.mlitoe disliked.both the,Priaciple and practice of f amir,i, Ire land ander. a complete gendarmerie. The pine:folio( it was unconstitutional. No one could deny that. bet in the county of Longford a Noble Lord had asked, Ait a i pt 4 *vs! ? and ,iroproved the ordinary police ; so that boss a system of murder of policemen, , they could now go and apprehend a criminal oat of one of the most crowded fairs in the country:— Ie kricw that the Lord Chancellor of Ireland had, 'before he (14r. Giant) left that country. obtained lists of the most efficient persons to be Magistrates, in all but two or three counties., In the system of retigiouVaducation, there was a great defect, in as Much as conformity 614 faiths was alone sought for; buthis wish was, that allfunds for education should be placed at the disposal of Government, for the educa tion of both Catholics and Protestants in their re spectiee.faiths...He was sorry the Right Hon. Baronet had brought nothing specific before the House; but he hoped the question would be soon agitated again. He eulogised the conduct of the Catholic Clergy during th e late disturbances in Ireland, th r o ug h out which they had acted with a zeal, a firmness, a•cou eige, and a loyalty, that deserved the poor retiirn of the tribute of his praise. Unless they could lay deep their, foundations in the harmony of all classes, they could never hope to tranquillize Ireland.— Let them not think this impossible, though it bad never been done; wherever the experiment had been fairly tried, be would venture to say that i t h a d never fiiled. Il e instanced the ,case of a parish in the County of Limerick,where the Protestant Clergyman kept no arms, and slept with his doors open. At the altar of his worship did the Catholic Clergyman in troduce the Protestant Pastor to his flock. The latter addressed the people for half an hour. He was lis tened to with breathless attention. He exhotted them to loyalty and obedience to the laws ; and, as if by acclamation, they one and all took the oath of alle- giance to their King. This was the origin of their mutual confidence ; and it was not temporary, for, amidst scenes of blood and rapine, that parish bad continued tranquil. Mr. ELLIS (Master of Chancery in Ireland), said that all - that had yet been advanced, depe►ided on local information ; and he begged leave to deny that the disturbances in Ireland al ose from temporary or local causes merely. On the contrary, he challenged the Government to contradict him, when he said that _ tilt present disturbances originated in 1814., and were quite distinct in their nature and character from any former disturbance in Ireland. He cased riot for any man's political opinion, but he would assert, that these rebellions were confined to Catholics only ; and that no distress of tithes or rents ever drove the Protestants into a state of open rebellion. These disturbers of the peace in Ireland were linked to gether by an oath, incompatible with the eszahlislted Church ; and on account of which they could ex pect to receive no aid from .the Protestants.— He begged to remind the House of a recent awful occurrence near Killarney, as it appeared in the pub lication of a Catholic priest himself, who was en gaged in the affair. A man, who was the intended object of attack from a numerous band of ruffians, put himself under the prOtection of the priest, who gave Inns up to one of the band, on his promising to save the life of the unhappy Victim. The man was murdered; and yet this priest positively refuses to give up the name of the man to whose care he con signed the deceased, because by so doing he would, he says, be guilty of a breach of religious confidence. In the name of wonder, he would ask, what could they possibly think of conduct like this ?—(A laugh). He was sorry to find that so grave a subject could be treated with levity. He was sure that if the Hon. Gentlemen who thus indulged theinselves were aware of all the sufferings occasioned by acts similar to those he had mentioned, they would not think of making them a subject of merriment(Coughing).— The Hon. Gentlemen appeared to be impatient. If could be satisfied that they might give their votes upon this question without examining the facts, they had only to call out Question! and he would submit —(A laugh, and cries f Question !).—He per ceived the House were very impatient, and he would therefore proceed to another topic. This was the time to put down the present insurrection, and then they might consider the best means of preventing its re currence. This must he done by militarY force. They had taken their estimate at 18,000 men ; but if they wished to tranquilize Ireland, they must double or triple that number. He never would agree to parley with rebels in arms. The forty shilling Freeholders were, he thought, a principal cause of the disturb ances; indeed, the destruction of this system of free holds would, in his opinion, be the removal of one of the material objections to Catholic Emancipation.— The putting down of illicit distillation would be ano ther beneficial measure; and the giving of 'a moral dnd religious education to all, would be productive of much benefit. But whatever might be the cause of , the distreis—whateier the proposed remedy, the in surrection should first be put down. He regretted the symptoms of impatience which had been shewn by some in the House, an indifference which he could attribute only to an ignorance of the present state of Ireland, or an indifference to its welfare. Mr. PLUNKETT said it was not his intention to follow the Hon. and Learned Member regularly through the attack be had made on a considerable body of his countrymen. Ile (Mr. 1 , 41124 m a former occasion, opposed that lion. and,Learne d Member's leaving his olEciL duties in Ireland to sit in that House; yet, certainly he could not but now rejoice that his opposition had been ineffectual, and that the House should, in the speech of the lion. and Learned Member, have a specimen of the tone which was observed towards the Catholics of Ire land by their Protestant brethren--(Cherrs.)—lt had been matter of complaint that on former occatiins concession bad not produced subsins:isou ; haat that House eiuld not now be ata less to discover the reason, for they saw that concession had been accompanied by the curse of bigots. The mildew of b'- our had actually destroyed the effe,ct of Hoye! hooevolsoce. —As for the statements of the lion. and Learned Nenthes, though they might be In a few partial Instances literally true, they were generally and substantially false. It• was only a small part of the country which was disturbed;-and .as the distutbers were composed e ntirely of the lower eLsres, it became. matter of rcproash that they. *re Catholic* VI was toe,. but Pig excesses bad been visited Cathitlics as well as upon Protestants. au sU the prof pawns, instructions were given to inaLe up!a • . • , . . •• • . -..• . • • • . . • . • . . • . . . • . . . . , t ,I . 44,ll : l6l WimieloittNriiiiiii44 : " 404. tildind; . , go _, sippetitothsGforrftbeissolvitsfeibely 1 surly to *Be% ' 1ib4,4 4 0 /11* ~to 4hah furnish '. •- s tfte erv= ,tell tar attalltien, end by education. Ho would Ihe bad alined; - iiiiilto'of 'tithes, bet aillteredifecdy 'to - eatuPtillt7 Vitilrelierit "V0046% -- tell them; bigh•rol,nded u they were, that it was silo._ I referred to the Mit ei .?And—others •e% ssopacy as- Member reed soma:Sidenca ,givan before the Cons-^bo n o ura bl i toformi, CIA, Pat of danger...fie would el them. that. it !nit their duty,, and should. br a . I sessments--atid others to the , payrnentilir Priests ' missioners by a Greatlinsau holding the office of Ac- .i i dues iSo that there Wa s . a iiit ing i n ' B 4 * wa ywqp. countent., At pas ircry to find.... 1 tweeted vrkli A . i...i.:....11.........1_.. ..r:•.:.Z.....,:i.,L2...!•‘.. n r•••••••11filaillaP . Lea ii 1 _11•.1 _ • • ret _ _ _ th•at'te resent Phui°ll milt fue•withost it thou could gam elfll/.0. .. . - • . .' • , .• • • - . • • • • • . . . . . • • . • 111,11beAS Mud to the . tbmuselvite.so.4 * ll ' 4 ° H of ~ liri Willi emPlotec l hindicer r hy attention , itfrieduistina. Hs would nis7 vairsdiaat.'"Vint9lll6l tell them, high•ndeded as they were, that it was dl o• d sesnit.Oidence given before the com.lonimtable te.finake ; Fbupost of danger...He wouyl 44-Vlas. . .. . , oy a Gentleman holding the office of Ac• WI them. that 4 !rag their duty,, and should. be ' a • limy to find that .the present Ssleasing ones far without it they.could not e: to old har chose large rentals which would enable them to . . i iin t -11 "tte I liPnied ine of t p o rot n i c ie fbr w in li ii:land . ioe- At with splendour in all Parts of the woild. ,Ile , . ~14t. new Apt, . They were always met disliked.beth theitieciple and praetice.of : pngisw Ice- 'draft of What wtitildbe;done done. They They land under. a complete gendarmerie. The princapleof (Told . that there Wain young Secretary it was neconstitutionsl.. No one could deny that. bet dud to do inelething; 'Which something lathe county of Longford a Noble Lord hAd asked, . 11 • et'hien ICOOMplidied. ' They' still heard °b wiped *ya p and „unproved the ordinary police ; " Yining' ram, 'andlete"afrald," and so d i n 'Am a system of m ur d er o f po li cemen, .0i of prOnnse appeal . ..ed . to be far distant+ .they could now • go and apprehend a criminal eat t'foriterd with it in a tithe'ofitifisperitY, of ode of the most crowded fairs in the country.-- . , dilial the people were happy, prosperons:‘ tie kocw that die Lord Chancellor of Ir e l an d h a d, i . i! ed, • and wanted nothing more. If they ' More .he (Or. G r ant) left that country. obt a i ne d er circumstances of distress, and come , lists of the most efficient persons to be Magistrates, , hence. they were told that grin nett at news. !.- -Is e___... . -I_ • w _ • .. 'd aP411745 - stkeiTki wanks* against • • i ' L uo distinction in • . .