Star. — London, England, 1808-03-01 00:00:00

•.. , ,itare i GoCOIGNE had had tie honosi of ..„ . ,iir iisi s et . Loot ,. ,Lake, , antrhe nhciPld trot have 5 Y'' .. ..., t he Q u estion at all, had it not been that lie , yok e° 'tins ' s omething in. ilie arguments of the 04, 14. B ar onet, cakilkteil__ to excite diicontent 110 1 °': d s ' o f theltoille......{ Load crib if. " Rear!" A e on .. • Honourable Baronet- hid not P — g o isers)., the merits or transcendent services or . the 4 : t ° 4 rAke r and he AVd fro.us_hins and the 11 2,14, 0 0 .. .site(Lordio estone) M. every. oint irr ,., • ~ . . . Pr2l stated, thit it was iMPos,sible for r il Pr isitt • 'A.._ pension, though he did not like it so 01' Pectiveir is 1803. It was a just re ward in nue 6 t 4 o f mer it, and no individual was ever better 21 6 0,1 °44 1i such a reward than Lord Lake. Mir.isters to be cautious whom they advanced to a °•°- a s it was improp er for p erso n s to be in: with su ch honours, witkout ade q uat e mean gip ped that rank. . With ?espect to a Monument, a tr ibuCe of respect was neve r p aid but to an mortal ~„ u t, or who received a wound in t e 7, 4 and in this instance such was not the can. 'C-,.,o'rd GEORGE CAVENDISH agreed with the Hom u-able Member who spoke last, that titles ought s o besto wPd without great consideration, both t be . o •T tbe serv i ce s of t he . individual and of Ws means to sgat the d Y t and independence of de Peerage. Be thought the Peerage was often very improperly military men, w hose services were by means s i t % to .This, however, was not the case o f the first to the gallant Officer, whose merits and Welt resPec t u we re now under consideration. He moose c l a ims House would • s hould th ink the act in a niggardly nom ' ,if they were to r ef use what was now proposed foi . t h e f ol ify of Lord Lake. . 1 Mr. LY TTLETON said, that although he did 1 ; wt p r etend to be a perfect judge of the military merit of L or d Lake, yet every body had ag was d that the •of the Noble Lord were conspicuous, and that I id l ey were not of the first class, they at least ap pm/inured very much to the fi rst class. Instead of w w i s hing that services of this nature should be rewarded by g ild wn without the intervention of Parliament, he s wish the rewards of merit and public ser lice to flow more immediately from the people. He w ished the patronage of the Crown was retrenched ; ad he thought the Ministers would have come down to the House with much more grace, if, when they made an application for this grant, they had pdinted out a corresponding retrenchment. The SECRETARY at WAR bore testimony to the professional merit and important services of Lord Like. Hethought, that upon constitutional grounds, h would be dangerous and improper that poverty and the peerage should be associated together. 1 Mr. TIERNEY expressed a fear that it would be considered, that the House shoved too great a rea.di nes to dispose of the public money. He agreed i k* with the Honourable Baronet, that the House amid anxiously watch over the expenditure of the yeblic money ; but he did not think the people would not him for his anxiety in watching over the public expenditure, so far as to refuse a well-merited reward a a gallant Officer. The first question which he thought ought to be considered was, whether he had deserved the Peerage or not ; and secondly, whether the grant proposed was a proper one ? He would not however allow, that whenever a Peerage was granted m accomit of military services, a pension should be votedhl that House. He should now take the op portunity to lay in his claim to protest against this doctrine m a future day, if it should be proposed in favour of other new-made Peers. But, as for Lord Lake, it must be allowed that it was almost impos sible for any British Officer to be placed in a higher or more responsible situation than he was ; and then the question would be, how did he perform his duty in that situation i It had been gene rally admitted, that no officer amid have conducted himself with more integrity. He could speak frcim the means of information which the situation he had lately held (President of the Board of Con roil) gave him. The merits of Lord Lake were not merely in the field of battle, but he conducted himself with reit ability in some delicate negotiations with the naive powers cf India. He thought a perwn placed ia a high and responsible situation, and who was emi mtly successful, did deserve the Peerage, and that the grant proposed was not too much. The utmost pession which the Crown had the power of bestow % which was 12001. per annum nominally, but really no more than 8001. would be by no means an 'Pilate remuneration for such services. A s to a pubai monument, he would wish that that honour should be reserved exclusively to those Generals who received their death in the field of battle. The East India Company were, however, often liberal in those things; and as his principal. services had been per formed in India, he thought it would be becoming in them to take this part of the expense upon themselves. IMr. TAYLOR said, that from the arguments he had now heard, he wished to retract the opinion he had expressed about the public monument. He de fended_ th e o b servat i ons o f the Honourable Baronet from the constructions which had been put upon them Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, that he had been Tx:3st entirely misrepresented by the Right Hon. Gen tleman (the Chan ce llo r of the Exchequer), as to what he had said about the means which the Crown pos se!Pid of rewarding eminent services. He had nest ?Lpled to the pension list, or thought of it ; he al-', hided directly to the great offices, sinecures and re 'etsons, which Ministers always pretended were ne cesnary, in order to allow the Crown the means of :warding eminent services. He was surprised that the Right Hon. Gentleman should have mistaken his .weaning so widely, especially when that Right Hon. 1 Gentleman need not look beyond his own family to fumy, what sort of sinecures and reversions the Cr own tad to bestow as the reward of eminent services. If Ittaisters had come doWn and told the House, that it 'vas Parliament alone ishicti'ought to assign the re to eminent services, and that therefore all those toeless sinecures, reversions and incumbrances should be done away, the question would be entirely altered, and he should then have no objection to vote a liberal Irnuneration for any eminent services performed to u * country : the Right Hon. Gentleman best knew *hat kind of services it was which was rewarded by such sinecures as his family and many others pos=es std. Their eminent services might be well known by the Servants of the Crown, but the people of the country knew nothing about them. Whenever the 5 . 1 ghtest service was rendered which could bear the light, or which could be stated to Parliament, therti fotn Lrse, np?' sic/ stela erty' x'.3 a fly or ti ''-e iv.►te ~f the ydid Pen' :fond eu)L.- - 'a • % , 'i . si- . • was an immediately applies Atm for a reward, which iir4e nest ti? come from what was in the. patroit age„4. *e Crown,. but 'fin . in an additional burden iinposed =the people., An. Honourable Gentleman (Mr.' es),lii! , 4 thought it necessary to disclaiM his so- , !ideal oemok% and all participation in them. , his disclaiming of the Hononrable Gentleman's Should not, however, Make him hesitate. to state those opi nions, to the House, whenever he was convinced that he was prompted by no indirect view, that he was la bouring from no party motives, or any Wish toring in one set of Ministers or turn out another ; * bri but exer cising that duty of,a Member of Parliathent which he conceived himself most peculiarly called upon to dis charge..., Standing, as he did, on a great constitutional ground, he did not feel that he was called upon to enter into a discussion on the personal merit of Lord Lake. Discussions of this sort were always most dis agreeable ; and there could be nothing more painful to a Gentleman than to be obliged to say any thing which would appear to derogate from the merit of a gallant Officer who is no more, and who. ap pears to have been beloved, and perhaps very de servedly, by his brother Officers. He should, how ever, say, that the services of Lord Lake were not of the most distinguished rank ; they were no thing like the services of Lord Nelson. He did not know that the country owed any particular gra titude to iiim ; and he thought, that if one tenth part of the. reward which had been given to Lord Lake in his life-time had been distributed among many other gallant officers, whose merits had been unrewarded, the army would have been much better contented. It was the opinion of many persons that his rewards far exceeded his services. As to the great victory that was spoken of at Delhi, he must ask, who ever went to India that did not win battles ? [Hear ! hear !] When the brilliant victories of Lord Lake were mentioned, he might, if he pleased, mention also some remarkable failures. He did not wish, however, to go into this discussion, because he rested his argument not upon the circumstances of this pe culiar case,but upcai the general constitutional ground. He would not be prevailed upon by any falso colour ing of the services of this man, or of that man, to depart from the general ground of objection which he had considered it his duty to take. He should, therefore, persevere in taking the sense of the House; l he should use this common expression, although in fact the sense of the House was known as well before a division as after it. Another Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) had appeared very anxious to guard himself from any suspicion that, by his vote to-night, he was departing from those political opi nions which he professed himself to have been so constantly attached to. The Right Honourable Gen tleman might make himself quite easy upon that head. He might be sure that he would not be sus pected of acting from any other sort of principles than those which had hitherto guided his political conduct. After the explanation which had been made of the sentiments he had before delivered by an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Taylor), he did not feel it neces sary for him to make any further explanations ; but as he conceived that the present motion went to lay an additional and unnecessary incumbrance on the bur thened and exhausted people of this country, he must persevere in his intention of resisting it to the utmost, and dividing the House upon i Mr. BIDDULPH spoke for some time in a low tone of voice, but was frequently interrupted by the cry of Question! Question! We conceived him to speak in favour of the motion. The Gallery was then cleared for a division. While strangers were excluded, the House divided twice.— The first was upon the grant of the pension generally: Ayes 210----Noes 2F. The second division was (as we understand) upon the pension being granted from the date of the battle at Delhi.—Ayes 202—Noes 15. NEGOCIATION. Mr. WHITBREAD apologised to the House with regard to his health, and was afraid he could not per form the arduous task which he imposed on himself, agreeable to the notice he had given on a former day; but notwithstanding, if it was the wish of the other side, he would go on. Lord Castlereagh spoke_ across the table, and, as we understood, wished Mr. Whitbread to go on. Mr.W HIT B RE AD resumed,and said that the Co mmissioners who delivered his Majesty's Speech, gave a hope that all the Papers respecting the Russian Medi ation would be laid before the House ; but the House saw with what difficulty they had obtained the few now on the table, which was a convincing proof that Ministers had acted improperly , and was fearful of 1 that reprobation which their conduct so justly merit ' ed. We are now arrived at an important crisis, and certainly he must say, that opportunities had been most shamefully neglected, when a peace was attain able on honourable terms through the mediation of Russia. The war in which we are engaged is conti nued year after year, without any hope of its being terminated, without knowing the precise object in contention ' • but he would call to the recol lection of the House the number of Petitions which are daily pouring in upon us from the manufacturing towns ; and he hoped that would at once open the eyes of Mi nisters as to the real situation of the Country. He was a real friend to freedom, and was glad to see the people exercise the right they possessed of sheaving their displeasure at the measures proposed by his Ma jesty's Ministers. During the American war, such \Petitions had the desired effect of bringing about a peace with that country, and he anticipated the like result from this instance of public virtue. As for him self, he was. a determined advocate for peace, and an avowed enemy to perpetual war. He maintained that peace on honourable terms could be had even at the present mcm.mt ;—what then could be cr. r cbj ct in carrying on the war, when it was impossible to distress our enemy in any vulnerable point ? Therefore he felt extremely anxious to dispel the cloud of error which prevailed over the people at large, arising from a cause which he would not trace to its original source, but chiefly from a notion that no effcrt on our part could bring about so desirable an object as what the manufacturers w's'ied. Ministers had exulted in the battles of Eylau and Friedland, and vainly imagined that the career of Bonaparte had been stopped, but the latter battle had occasioned the peace of Tilsit, con sequently put words in his Majesty's mouth, which' imported that it was a disastrous calamity to the Rus-' sian empire. Yet it would be seen that the Emperor Alexander had acted wisely. He could not defend himself with an inferior army, notwithstanding the • f! A •• exultation of Ministers. Theisit was; he was routed in every direetinti, thereiere it Was wise in hint to pre vide for his oivn safety, and it was equally so in Bo naparte, to 'stop in the canter Of glory and ..*ety.— The,llaissian EmperO. - was,. wider all these 'circam stance, rt 4 strongly unpressed with friendship inwards this country that he solicited the n•ench to terminate the war, and brine about a gene M Nice. General Thai:Mere communicated these circumstances to Lord G. L. Gower. The evidence before the House was a convincing . Proof of the disposition of the Emperor to mediate an favour of his ally. The : offer was not made so as to restrict us in time, which wasieft entirely to our own convenience ; unhappily, however, the offer was rejected in a manner that gave disgust to the sincerity of his views, by insisting on the disclosure of the secret articles of the treaty of Tilsit, and renewing the CoMniercial Treaty. Mini sters therefore treated hilit like a 'child, as if he had no discretion of his own'. ,Budberg persisted that there' was not a single article in the treaty of Tilsit relating to England, or to exclude its commerce from the Russian ports. But our Wise Ministers would not be lieve this ; they charged Budberg with duplicity, and insulted his master, who had been led to the very verge of ruin to espouse our cause. Austria, on the other hand, had been treated with equal contempt, who, so late as the month of November last, offered her good offices to bring about a general.peace, c ommunicated to us by desire of Bonaparte ? Would Ministers stand up and deny these facts ? It was evident that they neglected the means put in their power to obtain peace. The Hon. Member maintained it was not yet too late, it was desirable, and why not comply with the wishes of the people. It was no degradation to apply in direct terms to Bonaparte ; Then if he refused, he was certain it would unite the people at large, who would consider their privations as nothing. He was equally certain, France was as willing to conclude a peace as we were, and he hoped no opportunity would be lost. The war, however, had taken a new turn, and we were wisely told by Ministers that they would compel the enemy to make peace upon any terms, by depriving him of bark. That was the t wildest scheme that ever entered the brain of a Minister, and he trusted it would be abandoned. The Hon. Member then submitted the following Resolutions : Resolved-Ist. That it is the opinion of this House, that the conditions stipulated by his Majesty's Ministers for the acceptance of the mediation of the Emperor of Russia were inexpedient and impolitic. 2dly, That it is the opinion of this House, that the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers on the refusal of the mediation offered by the Emperor of Austria, was inexpedient and impolitic, and not calculated to ascertain how far the restoration of the blessings of Peace might, or might not, have been attainable through the means of such mediation. idly, That the House feels it incumbent on itself to declare, that there is nothing in the present circumstances of the war which ought to preclude his Majesty from embracing every fair opportu nity of acceding to or commencing a Negotiation with the enemy, on a footing of equality, for the termination of hostilities, on terms of justice and honour. Mr. PONSONBY was disposed to blame the con duet of Ministers, in not accepting of the means they had in their power of participating in a general peace; but still he could not agree with the 3d Resolution of his Honourable Friend, as it would be furnishing Bo naparte with the means of holding out terms which we could not accept. He had no idea of the sincerity of Ministers who had no wish for peace, and all that could be said would have no impression on them. Mr. WILBERFORCE said, it was impossible for Ministers to accept of the mediation of Russia or Austria, under the circumstances in which they were offered. Lord MILTON was surprised at the reason as signed by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, fur opposing the motion of his Hon. Friend, namely, that this was an improper period to bring such a measure before the House. He must express quite a contrary opinion. He thought a negotiation ought to be en tered into, if practicable, without loss of time ; but he was sorry to disagree with his 41, 'n. Friend's third Resolution, as he did not conceive that Resolution could be of any use. If the conduct of Ministers had been such as to render it necessary to address his Ma jesty to have them removed, he would be one of the first to come forward in favour of that proposition ; but he did not conceive their conduct, on this subject at least, had been such as to render that step ne cessary. Mr. WARD spoke for the motion. He was happy to find his Honourable Friend had brought this great and important subject before the House, and said, he should give it all his support. It was not for him to decide whether his Majesty's Ministers were for peace er war ; but he considered the object of peace of such immediate importance, and, if there was a possi bility of procuring it on fair and equitable terms, and honourable terms, it ought not to be delayed one single hour. It was not for us to consider whether we can subsist as well in war as peace; it was neces sary, at this'moment, to consider the present state of our commerce, the dreadful situation in which our settlements abroad were placed, the grievances of our people at home, but above all the calamitous situation in which Ireland is at present involved. He was sorry to say that if that country was not relieved, and that speedily, it would be totally ruined, if not lost to us altogether. If we were to conclude a peace with France at the present moment, even on terms not perfectly beneficial to this country, or at least not so much so as it might be the sanguine wish of his Ma jesty's Ministers to procure, still he contended that such a peace would in the end be amply beneficial. He also contended, that though this peace were to continue for seven years, and all the Powers of the Continent were to combine with the Emperor of the French to raise a naval force to act against us at the termination of that .period, we could set them all at defiance. As to con tinuing the war with France, what could be gained by it? The power of the French on the Continent could not be reduced,and no alliances could be formed by this country. It was well known what were the intentions of Bonaparte with respei tto our East-India settlements. His opinion was, that the French Em peror having, with his usual foresight and penetration, tormed alliances on the most amicable and solid basis with the Emperors of Russia, Turkey, and Persia, there must be a great probability of his meeting with all that success his most sanguine wishes could expect, as he had absolutely a direct road through their do n a ns to Indi . He reminded the House of the state of our manufactories, the situation of Ireland, and the great diminution of the commerce of the country, and asked whether they did not see in these circumstances the most press i ng reasoes to put an end to the war? He considered this war as one of the most unnecessary and . - - ........01, I'i.* , • • , ~ . . . , Aieolons In its nature that catad iiPoseibly ever ha en- Linea into die heads of any ket of men to prosecute,and the Sooner it was put ah end to, the s oo ner would the Houserecover the hlcssings of their *fent* creatur-k, • who were groaning under the burthens &I now hear in Sutiporting ie. With respect to the people of Ire land, it Wis his opinion, were they treated with knord , kindness, they would make as goad subjec . i, au& act as obedient to the Legislature, as the n.itives of Eng 7 land. The two great points of policy_ for this Coml. try to pursue, were, in his opinion, a peace with France, and toleration in Ireland. • .- Mr. ELATCHFORD opposed the resolutions on the ground that any peace that could be made in the :, existing circumstances would risk our commercial . -- asce ndancy. ' • . ' Mr. JOHN SMITH said, this was the m )st ire- portant subject agitated in the present Session. Ha' could not agree with those who opposed the resolu- • tions, and did the war go on for two years, what would become of two millions of starving manufacturers ? Mr. Secretary CANNING replied to the argil ments which Mr. Whitbread had urged in support of his motion. He expressed his readiness to enter at any time into Negotiations for a Peace, cons i stent with the honour and the dignity of the country ; but he maintained, that until certain information was re ceived that the French Government was prepared to eater into negociations on an equitable basis, it would be imprudent to attempt any. It was obvious, that if any Negotiation, which might be undertaken, should fail, Peace would be placed at a still greater distance, and the sufferings of the people, which have been so much exaggerated, instead of being diminished, would be augmented. He could not help making a few ob servations on the subject of the Austrian-offer of me diation. The first offer of mediation on the part of Austria might have been worthy of attention, if the fortune of Bonaparte had no: taken a different turn. Austria fell under the controul of France ; and no security existed in ne "otiation . b , The last offer of me diation proved palpably fallacious, and both attempts exploded together. It was the intention of the British Government to enter into negociations for peace, but in the official Notes which had passed through the hands of Count Stahremb2rg, the Austrian Minister, an ambiguous style was conspicuous, evidently the effect of design. In 'one of the Notes the words— “at war with England,'' were inserted, instead of, at war against England. The former conveyed a different meaning from the sense required, and ad mitted of several constructions. A second Note was sent, with a most singular omission in grammar. — A request was made that the omission might be filled up, but the omission still existed, and it was evi dent that these errors were intentional. After the Nth of June, 1807, Austria was no longer an in dependent Power. She was so completely influ. • enced by the Minister of France, that her Prince had no choice but to aid the views f France. The Ho nourable Member who had alluded to the subject of these offers of mediation, would find no instance where a neutral, under the influence of a .superior i power, had been accepted as a mediator. We were called upon to accept an unaccredited assent in the person of the Austrian Minister. There was no basis established for negociation which constituted secu rity.. In the year 1805, Austria offered her mediation to France, who said, shew me a basis. She afterwards offered to mediate for Russia, who also required a ba sis. If these powers conside red it necessary to make such demands of Austria, this country was right in demanding strictly the basis of negociation before we accepted that offer of mediation. With respect to Austria, it was well known that this country had pre ferred her friendship, and offered her every indul gence, while she remained in the interest of Great Britain ; but when she became under the controul of France, it was not our interest to trust her. Was it not well known two years since, that the British flag was expelled from the ports of Austria ? England had not retaliated, under a belief that Austria was' under the direction of France. He stated these facts to prove, that a mistrust was properly entertained to wards Austria. Ministers had determined not to en ter upon negociation, unless it was upon a footing that was likely to insure a successful issue. It had been said, that the enmity of France was directed against this country, in consequence of the offers made for peace having been rejected during former Administrations. He would ask, if it was from that the present Ministers should be responsible for the conduct of others, with whom they had no concern? This argument applied to the conduct of the Hon. Gentleman's friends, who composed the late Administration, and who broke off the late negociation. It was true the Honourable Gentleman had disagreed with them also on that point; he therefore could not deny him the merit of having acted with consistency. Mr. HERBETT, who had seconded Mr. Whit. bread's Motion, rose to speak.—( A loud cry of Ques. tion ! Question ! Spoken ! Spoken !) The SPEAKER observed, that the Honourable Gentleman had already spoken. It was true that the Honourable Member had only said a few words seconding the Motion ; but as the point of order seemed to be insisted on by the House, he was bound to declare that the Honourable Gentleman could not speak again. Mr. W. SMITH thought the two first resolutions involved in so much difficulty, that he could not vote for them ; but if the third resolution was to be brought to a division, it should have his vote. He conceived that Ministers by their own spewing gave very little hopes of peace. He thought that it would be acting more consistently with the Wonour, the interest, and the dignity of the Country, to enter into negociatio, now than at any future period. Mr SHERIDAN did not agree with his Honou rable Friend who had just sat down. He would vote for all the three positions. It was not surprising that some Gentlemen should have regretted, that those who usually acted together should have come into the field less completely drilled than the troops on tke other side, since they proposed to vote on grounds so inconsistent. He contended, that Ministers had shewn an aversion to peace in two instances, and that they ought not to be trusted to reject a third offer. He was sorry to hear a great deal stated re. specting commercial distress, from a very respectable quarter ; but he was certain that the picture which hid been drawn was greatly overcharged. He knew there was no such distress in the country ; and if it did exist, he never would avow it : for to held such a language was to capitulate at once. It had been said, to vote the third resolution would be to encourage p• • • I‘' ... I i i ' • • '.. L I t , , I , I I , I I r t I , ! • 1 . i 1 • i r ; . I s la d o ff le at of it- s. ile he in ier t nd lot ant ott ght red the ing ..\ and :io*