Star. — London, England, 1817-05-13 00:00:00

"greeter of a military despotism. After aptdogieing a the House for his long detention, the Noble Lord cif scd a short hnt glum( peroration, by moving, •s That 3 Copy of the Ca•r, upon which the opinion of his Majesty's LAW (Nicer% referred to in the Cir• cnlar letter of Vincula! Sedmouth was given, be laid before the House." Lord ELLENBOROUGH could ass ele their Lordships. n o twithstanding the research wit had • been manifested by the Noble Earl, that the autho rity given to Magistrates respecting libels, had met with the fullest and most impartial investigation, and was built upon such a foundation, that he had To hesitation in saying. that it was perfectly legal. The , tweetion was, whether a Justice of the Peace might , hold•to bail upon 4 case ef a libel ? and this he was Certain Justices were completely.authorized in doing., ' Taking for the grounds of his opinion, the grave and • venerable authorities which had. in several instances i • been adduced even by the Noble Eat' himself * . he ' could not doubt but that it would be taloned. (tat , the opinion was as well .founded as it could be.— First, he should ?der to the respectable authority ef . my Lord ,liale, who had stated, that. Justices of the Peace might issue slow warrants for the apprehension of persons charged of climes within the cognizance of the Sessions, and binding them over to keep the peace, &c. Now if any person should take that pas sage of his Lordship's opinir,n and read ir, what con clusion would they come t•.? Certainly. that a libel . was an offence cognizable by the Sessions. He should then refer to the very same authority which had been quoted by the Noble Earl, Hawkins's !'leas of the Crown. There it was stated, that a Magistrate might convict for high treason, for a breach of the . peace, &c. Nov, what was a libel ? Thous;ii nut a forcible breach of the peace, it was evidently a . breach of the peace by act and in reality. The only . question seemed therefore to be, and that was what would never fors moment be doubted, whether libel ,was an offence coming under the cognizance of the Quarter Sessions? Lord Camden, it thoroughly exa mined, would be found also to be i rally in authority 'infavour of the power being granted to Justices; for he stated such offences to be under the cognizance of, Conservators of the Peace. What would the country 'do without some such power as that which had been ,given to Magistrates ? Were persons to be allowed ;to disturb and inflame the public mind for many ;months without being brought to justice, or ',idiom ,a chance of their being for some considerable time ,weyeuted from publishing seditious libels. The coun. try would not be secure without some such mode of protection, and tie wondered that any Noble Lord .could for a moment even imply any citing against such a.power. It was a necessary power which the country required for its good government. and if there had not been Such authority:for such a power to Magistrates, he would not have thoeyht that House ,ustified in adjourning even a single day without pass ing some Bill for granting such a power. With re, apect to Mr. Wilkes's case, he should say a word _upon what had been dropped by the Noble Earl. It had been said that that Gentleman had not been ;guilty of a breach of privilege of Parliament; and ,why? because what he ,had been guilty of did not amount to an actual breach of the peace, but it had never been stated that Mr: Wilkes ought not to be I held to bail &Vas libel. With all the authorities which he bad stated, with the authority of Hale, Lord Camden, Mr. fserjeant Hawkins, and with the num ber of witnesses in the recognizance: which he had produced, for so long a period, he could not help declaring it as his opinion, that there was a very great foundation for the opinion which had been stated. and he conceived it the most necessary and the most beneficial measure, that in the present times, could have been adopted. • Lord E RS KIN.E No question, he was persuaded, could. more deeply interest the public, than the one w before their LOrdships. H e had listened with io or e deepest and most tespecdul attention to the Noble d who had just sat down, and whom he was happy to call his-Nobly Friend. Yet he felt himself bound to differ on public rounds from the Noble and' /Learned ,Lord,iifthe views he had formed respecting the acts in question ; and he was sure, while he so differed, he had the testimony of the Noble Lord who presided in that House, that he did so differ, for merly, on Constitutional grounds. For the . Noble tord on the Woolsack. and the Noble Lord who presided in die Court of King's Bench, no man could feel more respect and esteem than be did, but yet he had a public duty to perform which absorbed every private consideration. At the time when the French ltevolution broke out, the number of libels in this country was very great, and in fact the country was almost inundated with diem, and at that time many trials, it was well koown, took place at the Old Boa ley on the subject, and also elsewhere. If the law. was clear about these libels, why bad measures to prevent tbeM not been adopted Sheaf He had bad the honour to be Counsel in Several of these cases,. and he had found, from his experieoce, that much good might *infected in this point of view. He thought that there existed too Much ditpeatine tQ void the common law, which he certainly considered amply. ufficient. The Noble Loyd at the head of the . Home Department had declieed to w ilts. this letter. till,he had the opinions of the Law. °Seers Why, in truth, had he declined to do so ? Why had It:, on these opinions of the Law Officers, called Mar gistrates to du their duty ? Why had. he instigated mein by this truly singular letter to look into autho tides, .and to hold the accused •to bail? No Judge . could say, what was libil or Dot, unless a.Jory gave it in their verdict as such, and therefore he perfectly agreed with his Noble Friend in the vsews.he took of the whole case. While he was at the Bar, there was no such custom as holding to bail for this Offence. . The LORD CHANCELLOR had no dia I cu ty ip'sayiog that the Noble Mover had argued the -sub ject- very learnedly, but still he . could not agree with his doctrines.—Many of the subjects had been held , Nis a ill for libels; it unjustly h e ld t h e y h a d .t b e i r ac • epos against the individuals who so held them. He therefore uttered his protest a gainst bei ng su pp ose d . tef give opinions' which - he might have held formerly ; hp slut' liras to give the opinions which be at present entertained t if they ware iron. he should b e h appy to retract them. Much bad - he'll said. about the in terference of the Secretary of State. Why did the Noble Earl forget that in 1793 and l 7 Q 4 a Pifoirlii- Mat n was issued, calling upon the Magistrates to attend to publications of a seditious tettsleliq. which in those years rose to I reit height t Wash not, he would ask, tire ditty of the Attoraey-Oteneral to exercise the authority with which he .was intested, and to use a strong hand in repressing blasphemous and seditious libels, tending to subvert the Govern meafe,of the Country. With respect to tie opinions of Atte.rnies General, would Noble Lords say that such men ae Mr. Northey, Lord Raynwind, Sir Dud ley Ryder, Lord Mansfield, none of them tontemp tittle Lawyers, though compared with the Tyros of the present day of ten or fifteen years standing, .were not •of some authority ?—these able Lawyers were all of opinion the practice of comtn:tting before information was legs!. The Noble and Learned taunts read several cases'in pods, from•the time of Q ueen Anne, to shew that invariably eeisons charged with blasphemous and seditious libels were liable to ap prehension. Among others, in the reign of Geo. 1.1 a man named Thomas Paine, had three distinct libds charged against him. The question of to-night was, not what the law ought to be, but what the law really is? The Noble Lord observed, that lie had taken an attire part in public life, but if in retirement, in the decline of life, he should think that he had been the means of abridging the liberties of his fellow subjects he should feel much regret ; but he could say, mrot conscientiously, that in all the prosecutions, which in the discharge of his duty he had instituted, he had been atilt rte.' solely bya desire to preserve the country. Lord HOLLAND supported the motion of his Noble Friend, and contended for the necessity of pro ducing the paper called for. A great deal had been said upon the law, in answer to the statement of his Noble Friend, but he must maintain that the autho rity of Lord Camden was far beyond the opinions of any Attorney or Solicitor General. It was well known that on many occasions these Gentlemen had fought to support inftingements on the Constitution ; therefore it wouli not avail to place suck men in op position to the great text writers. He enforced the authority of Lord Camden, to shew that the Magis trates were not vested with the power contehded for. Lord Viscount SIDMO , UTH said, that it was in consequence of the vast number of seditious and blasphemous publications circulated by itinerant ven ders. the Magistrates had applied to him, and he had taken the opinion of the Law Officers. On that opi nion he had written the Circular in question, and he watt induced to do so, from a desire to preserve the peace of the country. which was endangered by these venders, who bid defiance to the Magistracy, telling them that they could not touch them till the Sessions, and therefore they would go en disseminating their poison. .With resnect to the opinions, they were clear, without the Production of the case ; and there fore seeing nn necessity for laying it before the House, he should object to the motion. The Bishop of CHESTER, alluding to what had Wien from hem on a former night, stated the Noble Earl had misrepresented him. Earl GREY contended that nothing the two Noble and Learned Lords had said convinced him that this law was incorrect, for nothing so jejune he had ever before*heard. l • He had," to use the words of Fal staff, " asked for twenty-one yards of satin, and they had come to him with security."—(Hear,lsear).—He protested strongly against the opinions of the Law Officers of the Crown being taken on the Ala, in preference to the decision solemnly given of the best Judges of the land. He contended against the mo dern practice of• considering all danger to be apps hended from power, and not as emanating from it. The question was, whether or nor, in attempting to stop blasphemy; the Noble Lord had not created the existence of a danger which the country feared might tentl to infringe the Constitutional rights of the People? The Noble Earl adverted to the proceedings at Nor wich, in which the Steward (Mr. Anderson) had 'directed the Grand Jury to enquire whether Secret Societies had not been held in that City? The Grand Jury did make diligent enquiries, and 'they unani. mously returned their presentment—that no such existed in that City. Alluding to the prosecution against Mr.. Hone for the blasphemous parodies on the Benedicite Veld a eater, Bce. he observed, that the Anti-Jacobin, in 1799, published something similar:" containing blasphemous language ; and he hoped, if prosecutions were to be tarred on, the authors of this blasphemy, though written to serve a Political party, would be prosecuted, *halter they were in the Cabinet or not.—(Hear, Hear.) The House then divided—Contents, 19 —Non-Con tents, 75—Majority against the Motion, .56. Adjourned at Halt-past Twelve o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. • 11DINIVIGU Ara OLAIICOW CANAL. - - • The Right Hon. W. UUNUAS moved the r.cond reading of the 'Edinburgh and Glasgow Canal Bill. The Bill, im Ms opi nion, would confer many advantages upon two of the greatest towns of beaked: -.liven admitting that some private property may be injured by it, that did not touch the.priecipie of the Bill. Inlese he convinced that the Committee would give ample satisfaction to all whose print. property was. concerned, be ;book!, orberwsae oppose the Bill. The nitasere, - if citrikkd I into e ff ect, would give employment to at least 1,500 persons. Sir 0t43.1i.14K opposed the hill. It had been thrown out two &Woos:bath us* the second reading,' and he would oppose it hoW upon die monlogrounde as beigff then— This, Canal would have the effect of depriving many manufactories •wassr, with. out giving any lodemilification for the'iujury. As to the belief supply of Oak; one of the results promised Own the Bill, Edits: . burgh Sad no anodes for it. There was no city more plentifully 'supplied with that &stick at a cheap rate. They bid them from 10e. to iSs. per ton. k cool" be no.advantage-to the poor in the Way of labour, for it was dinkuk eftn at present to procure la bourers. He would therefore move, that the Bill be read a se good tinictlial day Na moods. Sir ItONAI4) FfiRGUSON seconded the motion. Lord A. fiAMILTON and Sir J. MARJORIBANKS sup ported the Bill. Mr. G. ROSE thought, that wily objecdons to the Bill might be conceded to the I..kinunittee. He had no Muswiedge of the par ties. hoe as:it.sepuld,,in his opinion, be very beneficial to two great cities, he would vote for the second readiugrif it. Lord illoiNitiG bad heard, that the city of Edlubergh war ht Ant . diepused to oppose the Bill, but that they were now in• dined to .withdraw their opposition upon certain conditions. liwee.cooditioos, however, could not now appear in she pill, nor wits k certain that the Hoops would agree to them if pro. ?media a separate measure. The Canal, according to the pre sent plen. would not come witlda two miles of Edinburgh, and k• could not be brought up completely to that city without a bent of A 75,000 liapimupter Bills.-(Hear)—He would therefore • op pow the NIL Mr. J. P. GRANT puppet:id the Bin. k would be the means of procuring a supply of water for Edinburgh, wbfcl was at pro. tent Very mach waned: • • The House then diiided op the second reading of th e mu..." Per it. 139—Against it. 63--" Majority, 76.-110 lidb was thebs read& second time. STATIC PaIIIONSRS. • Mr. ROBERT GORDON asked whether any interference had taken place on the part of the Secre tary of Sate for the Home D9r4stalcut on the sub led of the tttatment of the*State'Prisoners conEned at Reading ? • • Mr. HILEY ADDINGTON replied, that three weeks ago a communication had been ntscle to the Magistrates of Reading on the subject to which the question of the Hon. Gentleman referred. In con sequence of a circular letter from the Secretary of State, a string of questions had been sti.t to the Se cretary of State on the 22d of April, to which an• swers were sent en the following day. Amor:;.T these questions were those referred to by the [-lon. Genti , - man (Mr. Gordon,) on Friday, and to them, as well as to the others, answers were given. It was now open for the Hen. Gentleman to take that nurse on the subject which he thought most wort- ; hut he (Mr. Addington) would only observe, that he was at a loss to know • how any sort or imputation could be cast upon the Secretary of State. At the same time le did not wistt to be understood to say any' .thing with the view of deterring the Hon. Gentle. man from adopting any course which he might deem proper. to the matter alluded to, his Noble. Rat tiun Lad been guided by the most ur:(!frobted pr.rce dents, and where any doubt arose as to a more tigo riAs or mere lenient ccurse, the mere lenieht Was al ways adopted. Mr. 1/AOI:CHAN! wished to know whether, in coo:ego:Axe of any inquiries which the lion. Gentle. man opposite had made as to those prisoners, he had heard that a petition which one of those prisoners had given' o the jailor to be forwarded for the pur pose of being presented to this House, had never reached the quarter for which it was addressed, or whether this petition had since been heard of ? Mi. HILI. ; .Y ADDINGTON understood that a petition had been directed to the Honourable asid Learned Member (Mr. Brougham) but had Leen re ceived by him. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that the petition in wits lion had been given to the jailor, directed to him ( Mr. Brougham) or, indeed, in justice to the jailor of Rea ding, he ought to say, that he understood it was be. fore the' prisoners arrived at Reading (while (hey were at Manchester) that this took place. Lord FOLKSTONE wished to know whether the circular letter, mentioned by the Hon. Gentle-. man (Mr. Hiley Addington) was that on the subject of blasphemous and seditioul publications, or some other different letter He understood that &linty Jaili were entirely tinder the management of. County Magistrates, and could not understand what right the Secretary of State had to interfere upon that subject. He hoped the circular letter referred to by the Hon. Gentleman would be produced. Mr. B. BATHURST said, that it was easy to see that the crircular referred to by his Hon. Friend was not that on the subject of seditious and blasphemous publications. The Noble Lord was completely mis taken in supposing that the Secretary of State had no right to interfere as to the management of the Jail, as he would find by referring to the Act of Parlia- Sent Oa the subject. BIRMINGHAM POOR BILL. Sir. C. MORDAUNT moved the second reading of the Birmingham Poor 'bites' Bill, strongly con tending for the necessity of passing this measure, which could not but tend to afford considerable relief. Mr. HALL opposed the Bid, complaining that the measure was only applicable to one parish, and went to alter the established law of the land. lie moved, as an amendment, that it be read a second time this day six montht. Mi. CURWEN regretted that this Bill was of.a local instead of a general natu re . He thought the Bill ought to be adopted in some shape or other, for 'otherwise a vast portion of the pauper population of Birmingham would be thrown upon the public, des tituteof all means of relief. Mr. GOOCH disapproved of the Bill, for he feared the edoption of the principle to impose on owners of houses the . payment of the poor - rates, would occasion a more lavish expenditure than "at present existed., When the Gentlemen of Birmingham applied to the Chancellor of the Exchequer for relief under the Ex chequer Bills' Plan, that Right Hon. Gentleman said respecting • the security of the poor rates, that their deecoaty would be. better if their Bill had gone through she House. (Hear.) Thus was the Government for the first time made party to a private Bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. denied that the Government was in any way party to the measure ; and he should give his opinion on it as ,an indiviader Member of. Parliament. As to the principle. of the Bill, this was not the first time it had' been brought under the consideration of the Legisla ture. The Bill had his support. •He thought it was right that the proprietors 'should bear their propOr : '- , him) of the burdens. Mr. I)UGDAI.E approved of the Bill. Mr. LITTLETON disapproved of the Bill, which was wholly 'withotit a cbsopfete precedent. , This Bill Went to Make those landlords 'li a bl e who owned ~heassee let -under the rent of ten pounds, and if they adopted this Bill, tl:eir doors would' - be assailed from all parts of the country, by' HuU, - by Isiincheiter, tc. Mr. THOMPSON looked upon this Ain as an at -14;1,1 to equaliie the htriden of the Poor Rates, and that wilriuDit desirable., He hoped the Committee on thelloor Laws eroild - rectimmend the adoption of a general measure to'acconiiilish: such an eqoaliza tion.• The principle was a just one, and he, ore;' wished it success. • Sir J.. GRAHAM opprised the measure, conten ding that it war mint iiijuriciusly setting occupiers against their landlords., He wished the House would first ensure landlords their rents ; at all events, he truitedihat the . :landlords,• many of whom could get no rent at•all, gourd not be made liable to the Poor Rates, as propoied by the /1.11. Mr. WESTEkbrwas decidedly against the Bill, which went to establish a most pernicious principle ; it went to remove the burdens from tie occupiers to the ownerr of property, Who Were already exposed to sufficient severities, Mr. WI,I4BERFORCE supported the motion, de. siring that the measure should go to a Committee, for it was asserted in thiteeth of those who opposed the Bill, that 1770 houses had been built at Bilming hats within the last two years, so as to escape the , Poor Rates. The fact ought to be examined, to as certain whether relief could be afforded. Mr: 'BROVGHAM opposed the Bill, because its prinCiple was so objectionable. If the principle were good tar any thing, it would be good for a more ex tended:applieation '; and thin would they be prepa ring the way for the introduction of an entire new principle of leghlatidft. If the distress were trr t -, rary, as those connected with Government h,d tofore contended, where was .a.verit% nt 1 ing permanently fir tempc•rai calamity ? U ti Chancellor el the Exchequer sir/spirted it only as ; individual, and not as a Minister, he felt assuied the Bill ser;6l.l be thrown out, as all the argurriti, were agAinLt it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUE, denied tliat Gozernment had prcmiseJ any bupp, to the Bill. Mr. LITTLETON, in reply to this, begged, observe, that the Right Hon. Groat-man had t peatedly asicr'd him, how emits' Birmingham, ire! curity for the loan without this Bill ?.....(llear,h eee .' Mr. EvrrFitwortTit and Mr B. Diu huitsr st; p-!rted the &11, ciortending that it• principle sr, most just, and that the facts ought to be *nit< t:;tn, and that therefore ►t uregLt :o go to a Com m i t' , Sir C. MORDAUNT had nee' r heard dr tt the intentitin of the supporters of the measure to wit] draw it in the event or beMg deprived of the C:l4 ccliiir of the Exchequer's support.—(L'ear.) Th e House then divided, and the numbers were. For the Lill 36 against it 103 Majority 6.7. ARMY ESTIMATES. The. House having ordered the. the Army Est% mate: should be referred to the Commit tee o f s q , ply, and the House having resolved it►elf into t!:4: Committee— Lord PALMERSTON said, that in rising tr. call upon the House to vote the Supplies for 0,.. Army tor the :. hole of the year, lie did 14 feel hie . seif bound to follow the arrangement which had bee hitherto usual ii. de,cribing the different classes -; fe.rce which it was propos d to maintain. He shi •.:'u therelote (thinkh.g it tie most consonant and penpi. eirous mode) div: le tee whole of the Establir! se er ; for which he now intruded to call upon the Heuse so provide, into four classes. Under the first class, f. e included the whole active military force emplered within'the kingdom, that was to say, the Regimen.; of the Line, the Staff, the Volunteers and Ye.anantr, andilm Public Offices. Under the second elm, lie included , the active force employed out of the kini:. dom, including the troops in France and in Lodi:.— T(4 third class comprehended that description she were remunerated for past serviess, such as the half. pay, Chelsea pensioaera. &c. The fourth ages ass composed of that part of the establishment which it was intended to reduce in the course of the preser. year, but for which some supply would be required as the reduction was not yet completed. The labours of the Finance Committee made it unnecessary for him tee trespess at ch length on the time o f th e House as he might ot cruise have felt himself bou n d 11 1 to do. Tne genera( and comprehensive statement es the Second Report of that Committee would enatile Gentlemen to satisfy themselves on rnmy peinte... To the compaeative statement in the twenty-inh and twCnty-seviintli pages of that Rerun he particu larly referred. It would there be seen that en the total amount of force for this year, as compares: veli that for the preceding year, there was a dimiese:.,a of £1,738,000. But in that statement Wei inc;ezaat the disembodied Militia, which he did not tat-.e ista account in what he had now to submit to the Com mittee. There would therefore, by making an allow ance for this, be on the tshole force of this year, as compared With the last, amounting in round number; to 61,800,000. By referring to the 23d page of it:: same Report, it would be found, taking the more narrow view, and taking only that part I the army which was an actual charge on the revenue of the country, that there was a diminution in tie numbs of men for the service of this year, as compared with the preceding, of 35,000 rank and file, or (including Officers) 40,000. In addition to this, however, le.: 'had to state to the Committee, that orders had been recently sent to the Mediterranean for the r.tiirii of the.2d battalion of the 14th Regiment, which was to be reduced as soon as it reached this country. — Taking the reduction of that battalion into ACIOIII4 there would be a reduction on this branch el the force of 36,000 rank and file, or 42,000, incledrry officer" and men, compared with the numbers o: Lot year. If the aggregate of the Military establistitecit '(including the torso in France) was taken, aca allowance was made for the 2d battalion of the 14es Regiment of Foot, now on their way home to be tt •duced, there was, on the whole, a reduction ei 53,000 rank and file, or 81,000 officers and !tic - , from the amount of the force last year. By th i s ee Auction in the•number of men there would be a o duction in the . amount of the supplies for this year the extent of £1,800,000. Whether the exte:it s.it t':: reduction would give satisfaction to all, re we'!.l not venture to say ; but at least he was sure !Ler e; a majority of the House it' would appear satilarznry. At least it slimed, that in the interval between ti.: last Session of Parliament and the present, hi: MA jesty's Ministers had not been inattentive to the e...- ierings of the nation, but had lent all their efforts to make each eedtictions in the military tetabliJanert is would. Materially reduce • the public expeialiture, and thus, not only south the feelings, but alio:one the distresses.of the people. Reductions such AS (10::. which he had mentioned could, not he ea,ily ei qaickly made. .It was..siot,a glance of the eye, or a 'strak'wtrt thepen,..thaewae eufficient to effect their. When tbe'nature. and extent of our military eoshlis!• meats was uonsidefed ; when it was remembered tli,,t they were snataired through our Settlehrents in essre quarter of the world, it would be allowed that it required the moat laborious and patient esamioation on the pan of his Majesty's Government to oviblf them to submit to the House the reductions which t;'' bad mentioned. It would be seen by referring to t!'. - ( .15th page cif the Second Report of the FM vice Cm:' mittee, to what extent the military force ef the Cue...• try had been reduced within the last two years e. 2 e half. At the end of lEI4 (wiiic:r was the tari:.et time at which the work of reduction could have Leen commenced) the amount of the whole military force of the country was 2'28,5% Men. Last year the amount of the forceicept up was 99,000 men fir the general service, including the Colonies, 30,000 for our army in France, and 20,000 for great Britain and Ireland. For the present year the amount woo•d be as follows, viz.-80,000 men for the genete ll. -!" vice, including the Colonies ; 20,3 qt; ti,r die army to France, and 17,360 for Great Britain and kel nth -- It would be baldly necessary for him to recapitulate the different stations - . on which these Were emplint 4 —With respect to the details of else reds sou, the