Star. — London, England, 1822-03-15 00:00:00

- ever existed ? The Gentleman to whom behead dressed himself, of whom he could not say too as either for his industry or his talents in his situ' answered with great simplicity, that. to the his knowledge, there never had I—(Hear,ltea a laugh).—He must also state, that during time - he was there, there was not business enougi. the situation—(lkar,,from Mr. Courtenay).—He glad to see the Hon. Gentleman exert himself; for as he got a higher salary than he had, he ought to do something more for it ! (A laugh )..--The object of the motion was, that the House should name a Com mittee, to see if what he represented on this subject was true. The Noble Marquis opposite might ap roiat it if lie liked—he might be one of the Com mittee—tie Wit lion. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) another, and any Grenville that pleased, and he de fied them to report otherwise than he had stated.— li turned out that he was right, then he should ask why were the persons composing this Board al lowed to sit in that House? lie really was shocked to make any reference to the Constitution, but so long as there were Statutes he might be permitted to refer to theni. It was notorious, that the Statute of the 6th of Anne declared that no one holding a place under Government, except some specified, should after that sit in that House. But here were four Gentlemen in direct contradiction to that Statute.— Though they were of no use at the Board, perhaps, it was thought they might be in the House. The 15th of George H. permitted every Secretary of State to have a seat in the House, but not to have more than or.e tinder-Secretary. He raised no question as to the utility of oirial persons in the House, but he asked if there ever was such a violation of common seine, aii.l of the provisions of this Act, than to have four persons there to represent the India Board, when only one Secretary, and one Under-Secretary of State were allowed ? For the latter there might be some use—for the former none. There used to be lot merly a regular exposition of the affairs of the East hdia Company. It was not so now, and he believed, beyond moving a vote of thanks to the Marquis of Postings, no motion had been made for some years. TN° would be too much, four were preposterous, and t. fict of their being permitted to be there, was a roil of the decay of all proper interest about the Constitution. He knew that one obvious answer to la objections to the size of th i s establishment might be, that the Company paid fur it all. The Com rany he knew dealt in tea ; but he did not know cat there was anythitm in their Charter about deal ing in Members of Parliament !—(Load laughter).— The sum of 26,0001. laid out in the purchase of Mem bers of that House would make a pretty addition to the placemen already in it—(Laughter). But the right view to take of this was, not what the Hon. Members themselves cost, but what their votes cost the country. The Learned Doctor opposite (Dr. Phil limore) for instance, cost a good deal. He was not to be estimated at the cost of 26,0001. but as having cost the country the 1,500,0001. raised by the Salt fax—(Harr, hear, and a laugh). He begged their attention to this, and he pledged himself to shew them that he was, indeed, a most expensive article, this Doctor—(Laughter ' and cries of Order, order). Well, tlmi, this Learned Doctor—the Learned Civilian, it %%odd be in the recollection of the House, strenu iyisly opposed the repeal of the Salt Tax, when it was proposed a short time ago. And when they came to a division, it appeared that the Learned Doctor, and his party, mak? lig four, were the champions of the Salt Tax. He would not go into the question of whether he was dear or cheap to the Company, it was sufficient that he had cost the nation I,soo,oool.—(Laugleter). If he and his friends had been upon that side of the House, they would have obtained the repeal by two. Here he could not refrain from quoting to the House languagt, which he thought of a prophetic nature, and which was the more entitled to consideration, as it was the language of the good old countrymen of that House. It was uttered during the latter part of the Administration of Sir Robert Walpole, at the time when the Gentleman in question had been supporting a Mr. Sams, in his endeavours to pass a Place Bill to lessen the influence of tyre Crown in that House. He bad been nearly succe,sful in this laudable endeavour; but the time came when Mr. Sams changed sides, and it was the dilemma of the Country Gentleman in missing hi. support, that created the sentiments to which he had alluded. The Place Bill upon this oc casion was again brought forward ; but instead of meeting its usual support, Mr. Sams opposed it. He was sure that the sentiments then expressed would appear interesting to the House, and meet the sup port of the new Board and the new President, when be mentioned that the name of the speaker was Sir Watkin Williams Wynn—(Laughter, and loud cries • " Hear 1" from Sir Watkin Williams Wynn).—lie assured the Hon. Baronet that no descendant of Sir Watkin Williams Wynn need be ashamed of the sen timents he was about to quote, for they did honour to the individual who avowed them. After referring to the fate of his motion in the previous Session, he said—" But I know that Gentlemen often change their sentiments with their situations, and that their notions about the Crown and the People display a great variance, when delivered as from plain Country Gentlemen, or as From the possessors of an office in the State. Now if any of that kind should occur on, the present occasion, it would no doubt tend to dis. appoint thetnotion ; at the same time it would shew that if place had no other tendency, it went at least to bias the judgment, and to make persons think that right, which before they thought wrong.-- 1 Now, it that was not the case with the Doctor, he would be content to admit that there was nothing prophetic in the language he had quoted—(A laugh). But this Country Gentleman went on to anticipate, in the most minute detail, what had since occurred to his own blood. " For," said he, ." it is too much to think that the judgment is not to be biassed by 5001. or 1,0001. and, above all, by 5,0001. a-year !"—(Hear, hear, and laughter). This was the language held eighty years ago by a Country Gentleman. He was a County Member, and speaking on the same sub ject as that on which he (Mr. Creevey) was then ad dressing the House, with this difference, that he moved for a general reduction of placemen in the House of, Commons, whilst his. (Mr. Creevcy's) motion only called for inquiry into the utility of two of them. Having done with the great men of the Board, he would de,cend to the worthy Secretary (Mr. Comte; nay), who, as he had nothing to do with the affairs of India, must at least possess great art to be able to Eet his salary raised three different times 7004 more the I for ' c7,',7F-Tme; 'than'tt Wel tekre IA held As sittiationi Por his oat Part he had nreet asked fa; more, for he thought that no public • *musk *as ever better paid, ape seially consid'ering haw liidrhe had to do. He no* l /thought be had Made beim irresistible case for in quiry, and should etracihde by moving ... 14 That it be relivredta a. Met Coaunittee to gamine tutu the dialsreat duties amazed tsiass sacs of the Oenesi s " ners couneren foe the t of the Mike of India, by wheal the same at. fil 1 and report the* didervaasess to the House of bereopon." Mr. 13 RTENAT Oetlared, that he was not in duced Auk early in the debate to offer himself to the attention of the House in consequence of the personal allusions that had been made to himself. He would leave those who were the authors of the acts with re gard to him, as odious in the eyes of the Hon. Gen tleman, to answer him on that point. He would only state, that upon his honour, from what he' knew of the duties of the office, and of the manner he had dia. ] charged them—and he regarded it as a mo r al crime to take a salary without doing ample duty for its that he looked back with infinitely greater satisfac tion to the part he had performed - than the Hon. Gentleman by his own account could do (Hear, hear). From the moment he had seen the notice of the Hon. _ Gentleman relative to the Board of Controul, he con fessed he had felt some anxiety as to the nature of it, and knowing the relationship he had formerly had with that Board, it did not occur to him that the Hon. Gentleman meant to come down there, and with head abased, and face suffused with blushes, confess with shame that he had allowed himself to have held a sinecure! —(Neer, hear). He expected too that he would have included in his aspersions all those who had held places like himself in that establishment.— But although he did not hesitate to heap animad versiona on the most respectable Noblemen, he could not help admiring the ingenuity with which he evaded the task of including the Right Honourable Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Tierney)—(Hear). He had not dared to joke with him, well knowing that lie was a pretty severe hand himself in that way. With regard to the motion of the Hon. Gentleman, he had to observe, that he called for an inquiry which should never be granted, but on a very strong case being made out. It was to show that no such case had been made out that he offered himself so early to the attention of the House, conceiving himself competent, from a ten years knowledge of the duties of the office, to give the House information a 3 to the important nature of them. The Hon. Gentleman had rightly, stated, in saying that it was, at the outset of this Institution, attempted to perform the great and important duties of the Board without salary. But it was to be observed that, at that period, there was not one attached to it who had not a salary from some ocher source; and, in 1792, the system of paying the Commissioners began. In describing the nature of the duties they had to perform, he need not expatiate on the immense extent of the British possessions in India, which were entrusted to the care of this B ,ard ; but he would observe that the extent of their duties was not to be estimated by extent of territory ; for the management of the affairs of that country was infinitely more intricate, and multiplied than those of any other. Every single act of every Judge, and of other Officers, to which no importance was attached in other countries, underwent the strictest scrutiny by this Board, as well as by other powers—( Hear). First, it passed under the observation of the Supreme Council in India; next it underwent the examination of the India House ; and, lastly, the act itself, and the acts of these bodies, were subjected to a minute, constant, systematic, vigilant controul, which he was there to assert was daily performed at the Board of Contreul—(Hear,hear).—He did not blame the Hon. Gentleman because he did not perform part of a simi lar system in his time ; for the Board had taken many years to grow up to its present station of im portance—(Hear, hesr).—He declared before GoD, that if he was giving evidence on oath in a Court of Justice he would say nothing else—(Hear, hear). — Considering the short time the Hen. Gentleman be longed to the Office, it could not be charged upon him as blame, for it required two or three years to become acquainted with the nature of the business. He particularly pointed to the revenue and judicial departments, which were peculiar to this Board.— Since 1807, a completely new organization of the Board had taken place. It had been divided into departments corresponding with the great divisions of the Indian Empire, and he was sure that not a paragraph came from India or went to it that did not undergo the most particular, and, in some cases, enlightened scrutiny—(Hear, hear, hear).—As to the Judicial Department and that for the collection of the Revenue, the whole merit of that important change was due to a clerk in the Office—a Gentle man he believed of the name of Cummings—(Hear, hear). The effect of this change had been to bung upon the Board of Controul a load of business, and that most important, which was no more to be com pared to the small admeasurement of the Honourable Gentleman, than the affairs of the county of Rutland were to be compared to those of the whole British Empire. Without taking any merit to himself, he owned that since he had been connected with the office, he had given his best attention to its duties ; but he was utterly incapable of placing a clear view of the whole before the President. At the same time the President received the most efficient and meritorious Assistance from the junior Commissioners of the Board. The Noble Member for Rochester, for instance, had applied himself to the Judicial and Revenue Depart ment, and bad mastered the subject in a manner that did him high credit. With regard to himself, he had not the least objection to have his conduct examined. He devoted as much of his time to the Board as be was able; but still he must confess that he wars not competent to lay all the mass of business be fore the President. If they had six Commissioners more, he would undertake to give them all as much business as would last them for a fortnight—Wear). The largest bundles of papers that came before that House were mere abridgments to what they had to deal with at the Board of Controul. And what did it signify, whether there were those regular meetings of the Board, which the Hon. Gentleman seemed to think so necessary to the dispatch of business? When his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning) was President; be was rather averse from form; and although he (Mr. Courtenay) did not regularly take his seat at the bottom of the Board with his pen behind his ear, did it follow that the buiiness was less effectively done ? With regard to the discontinuance of opening an Indian Budget to that Houses it had taken place from . ,; ig . 'the tffte the iteime it airtre the effect of They had et. . this r o zut business beitihrthe war, had in sift months he toKIM out tb India most lacing to judicial questions. _ sufficient grounds to the House for teiecun A lion. He really did not ex p ect t h at t h e Hon, Gen tleman, fifteen years after quitting the situation in which he acquieed his ignorance, would have brought forward such a motion as the present. Such as it was, for the reasons he had given he should meet it by a direct negative — ( H ear , h ear ). Mr. TIERNEY said, there seemed to be two ob jects in the present motion. First, to inquire whe ther it was necessary there should be so many Com missioners of the Board of Controul, and in the next place, if it was necessary, to know whether it was fit that all of them should have seats in Parliament? He knew not whether the Hon. Secretary, in speak ing of him, had imputed to him negligence in his office of President of the Board of Controul. As to. the importance of the Biard of Controul, no one was, more convinced than be was of the weight of ttsel business, or of the merits of these who had really exe cuted it. But on the question, whether three Com missioners or a more limited number were necessary, he should say, on his honour, that he believed three were not necessary. He did not recollect during the time he held the office„thilt what were formally called Boards were held, but the same effect was produced by the members being in constant communicatiors, and comparing notes on different subjects. As to his Noble Friend Lord Morpeth and the Right Hon Gent. now no more (Mr. H. Addington), he con fessed that he had received the most essential assist- ance from them. It was the greater merit in theso Gentlemen that they had undertaken the labour of making themselves masters of Indian affairs, at a time when it was not thought necessary in those offices. Those who had witnessed the manner in which Lord Morpeth had brought forward Indian que.tions in that House, must be ready to bear wit ness to the extent of his information. And from Mr. Hiley Addington he received every assistance on ju dicial and revenue questions. The mass of the busi ness, however, fell on himself, and all responsibilityr; for he considered he would bean unworthy President of the Board of Controul, who would shrink for a moment from responsibility, because he was at the head of what was called a Board. Let them produce to him any paper signed by him at that time, no matter who else signed it, he took on himself the whole responsibility—(bear).—The Hon. Secretary had said, that in 1807 the dispatches from India were not minutely investigated. All he could say was, that there were none passed through the Board of Controul in his (Mr. Tierney s) time, without being subjected to a most minute examination ; and that there was no dispatch sent out to the East Indies without being most rigorously examined. But it would be impossible for three or ten Commissioners to do this without such clerks as there were at the Board of Controul, and at the India House. The House would be led into error, when they were told that all the dispatches were examined by the Secre-1 tary and Commissioners. Ali these dispatches were first sifted most completely at the India House by persons of the first abilities, and all the facts that called for a judgment brought out and distinctly stated ; then they were examined by persons of per haps equal capacity at the Board of Controul. Thus the great bulk of them was taken away ; and as there was not the slightest reason to suspect negligence, and much less foul play, in the clerks at the India House, every matter on which a doubt could arise, was distinctly, accurately, and by name, brought under the view of the Board—(Hear, hear, hear). — Now the Hon. Secretary was going a little too far to say that two or three years were absolutely necessary to initiate a man in the business of the office (Hear); for if so, it would be well, on re-modelling the Com mission, always to preserve one who had served an apprenticesbip—(Hear, hear). Instead of that, all the Board had just been sent to the right-about, and a completely new one, which, according to their Se cretary, must be altogether incompetent, had just come in —(Hear, hear). He (Mr. Tierney) had taken the office with peculiar advantages; for odd as the taste was, he had applied himself to Indian subjects as an amateur, and had had some battles with the first Lord Melville. He could say, however, that though there was not any office in appearance more at duous, or in which he was more grateful for assist ance, still he could declare that three Commissioners were not necessary. He should take the liberty of suggesting an Amendment on the motion, by which he thought a greater advantage might be obtained than by the original one. His proposal was to con solidate this Board with the office of the third Secre tary of State, and thus to make a general office for the Colonial Department. The motion would, there fore, run, not whether there might be so many Com missioners, or whether they should all sit in Parlia ment, but whether the department of the colonies, now under Lord Bathurst, might not be superadded to the Board of Controul. The Secretary of the Co lonial Department, as he was now called, had for merly been considered necessary on account of the war, and nothing else; but in order to continue his functions in peace, he had been called Secretary to the Colonies. Before the time of that Secretary, the business of the State had been conducted by two with as great facility. If two or three of the colonies were added to the de partmetyt of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel), he would find no difficulty in managing them. The third Secretary had been made necessary by the new colonies, and by nothing else. The business of most of these new colonies, as Malta and. the lonian Islands, for instance, was purely matters of politics and foreign correspondence. They ii.ight be trans ferred to the Secretary of State for Foteign Affairs. Botany Bay and the other convict colonies naturally ,belonged to the Home Department. The rest of the colonies might be subjected to the Board of Controul, with an additional Under-Secretary to manage them. Lest the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wilmot) should be alarmed, he had no objection to the Under-Secretary of Lord Bathurst being transferred to that depart ment. A saving of nearly, if not quite, 10,0001. a year might be effected by that arrangement, because he was perfectly convinced that the President of the Board of Controul, with the assistance, not of the two Commissioners, but of an officer more ap proaching to a co-ordinate authority, whom they 77.7.114.76,tpr . ! - -.7 . - '~ r - • . ... . , • 1111 a vi1i464411" *alai 6 pithedf got lot t6 tilit ibildsge intalleli the dbu wb a le th a ti ili th e e b is ti h s o ia lt es*- th* . would go on as smoothly As ever, with a iiiiine _jliC of 10,000 f. a-year. • He did kit Wish to be understood at 004:mining the' !Adult of die &mid of Controul—fat frofti it ; t h et a was n o o ffi c e . 'State the duties of which requirtd more militia .tention. For himself, he would say; thbrigh it might bear the appearance of persiinal vanity, that . ' never had any man inure sedulously devoted his time to the duties of the office than he had. No single day passed in which he had not Attended ; and all he 'wished now to impress upon the House was, that he had exerted himself tb the utmost for the Advantage of the Public:: Mr. CANNING thought it incumbent .upon hint to stand forward on this, occasion, in order to beat testimony to the onus and efficiency of s tile duties re., quited from the Board of Conti-mil; The change of circumstances which had taken place in the condition of that Board since the retirement of the Right , Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, was such that he thought it necessary to urge it upon the considera non of the. House in viewing this question, not as an argument, but as testimony. BA befbre he pro.: ceeded to reply to statements resting more on the credibility of testimony than on the authority of arz gument, he wished to state the grounds upon which the present motion had been introduced. It was a motion for the reform of one of the great offices of the State ; and, contrasting the statement of the Hon. Gentleman who brought it forward with that of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had last ad. dressed the House, it would appear that one was I most efficient, and the other a most inefficient sera vant—(Hear, hear, and laughter).—lf this was the case, and the President of the Board of Controul had done his duty, he ought to have inquired into the conduct of his idle Secretary—a proceeding, the reasonableness of which he (Mr. Canning) could per fectly. understand--(Laughter).—lf his fellow Com missioners had co-operated with him, it was extraor dinary why such an abuse could exist; and it was still more extraordinary why it should devolve upon the idle Secretary to submit this motion to the House —(Continued laughter).—This indeed was Reform with a vengeance! This chewed the principle on which Reform was clamoured for nine times out of ten; for here the House found the very culprit—the reuns coriStentem. coming forward to complain of that of which he himself ss as nototiou,ly guilty—(Checrs).-... The Hon. Gentleman came down to the House, -dying " Me—xis adsum—not gui feci, but gui non feci."— Oh, said the Hon. Gentleman, that these busy Com missioners should disturb the stillness of my stagna tion • I thought myself perfectly well off with a salary of 1,:5001. a-year ; I had all the newspapers at my command, and could read them at my leisure.-- While my President was employed in plans for the advantage of India, I had nothing to do but to look from the window into the Park. But I shall now revenge myself for that diligence which has thrown me into the shade, by !stinging forward the present motion—(Repeated cheers).—N, w he (Mr. Canning) would contend that the Hon. Gent. had no grounds for this motion but such as went to inculpate himself.— The business of this office had indeed increased no less than 100 fold since the year 1796. Such an in crease of business called of course for additional agents to conduct its transactions ; and from his own knowledge, founded upon documentary and other authentic evidence, that increase of business had ad vanced at least 20 per cent. within the last six years. If then two Commissioners were found necessary in 1807, when the Hon. mover and his Right Hon. col league were in office, to assist in conducting the af fairs of the Board of Controul, it was surely not too much to say that no reduction in these Commissioners should take.place at present—(Hear, hear). Of the increase of business that had taken place in the Board of Controul, the'exhibition of his Honourable Friend, the Secretary to the India Board, had presented a very imperfect view to the House, by calling upon it to judge from a single Bill, u hich lay on the table. His Hon. Friend's eye must, indeed, have an extra ordinary power of magnifying, %%hen it could regard such a document, although so voluminous, as any just specimen of the greatly augmented business of the India Board ; for he (Mr. (%) had seen one mili tary dispatch contain no less than 112 paper , form ing 13,511 pages ; another dispatch, a judical one, contained 13,511 pages; and in a Revenue dispatch 2,588 pages. This then was the modicum to be read by some one or other before the dispatch) could be sent off—this was the sinecure—this the little appen dage to be added to the office of Secretary of State -this was the trifling inconsiderable office to be joined to the duties of the Secretary to almost all the colo nies in the world—(Cheers.) Now, in order to reduce what really might appear incredible, to something like a degree of credibility, he should wish to shew how the thing could be accomplished. First, then, he was bound to say, that the dispatches were drawn at the India House with a degree of accuracy and ability that would fit the framers of them for any situation. He was morally certain that every page was read, or at least ascertained to contain that which was not necessary to read be. fore it passed through their hands, and the President was bound to read every passage that contained an alteration or doubt.--- However, they were now discussing establishments and not men; but he would be most ungrateful if he omitted to return his thanks to his Noble Friend (Lord Banning) for the valuable assistance he had received from him on all judicial subjects.— He could assure the House, that both his Honourable Friends (Lord Binning and Mr. Sturges Bourne) were out of office at their own particular choice. And as, in all diseassious of late upon these subjects, it was the fashion to attribute corrupt motives to men in offi.v, he thought their conduct *mild afford a strong contradiction to the imputations, for their character stood upon too high a pinnacle to be affected by any such unwarrantable attacks—(Hear. bear, hear).-- , When be rendered the tribute of individual merit, he could eot pass ever his Hon. Friend near him (Mr. Tatm, Courtenay); and here be must observe, that whatever blame was to be en dured for the increase of this salary must fall upon him, and he was ready to answer for it at the Bar of that House and the Country. When he (Mr. Canning) first joined the Board of Controul, lie found him in the situation, and be would excuse him for saying it, he bad no other knowledge of him than as being the author of a pamphlet, in which he (Mr. Canning) was severely attacked--(A laugh).—However, he had not been long in the office, when he became sensible of his abilities, and his pa tent and unostentatious deportment made him (,Ilc. Canning) endeavour to have him raised to the station has merits entitled him to. This Gentleman was now in the tenth year of his ser. lilies, and near the birth of his tenth child—(.o laugh)—and if any man begrudged this additional allowance, he would eye him credit for his economy, rather than have any share in his heart. He was confident the present number of Com missioners was not too large fur the Government of India.... Mr. Fox bad got the House of Commons to consent to seven Commisiiumrs and nine Sub-Commissioners. The seven were ; - • !le sheikh tkiVtittsis it, since . Mist* 'till of cleatilis the Wn enttspetant t moment most 44 • He he'd tioi arising out of thit M chine weak e espeettid they wouist*tre tb the Pohl' at impottant dispatch** se:. be tuiderstc ,s. He hoptid he had Mott Board of C House for tejecting thiklllo. in thee State )t! ‘,. I !t • • 1 j .11 i ~,