Star. — London, England, 1810-02-01 00:00:00

P4RLI,IM.ENTARr P ROCEA'DINGS. HOUSE OF LORI'S, JAN, si. The House met at four o'c'ock, when bring informed that Messengers from the Commons were in attendance, they were opdered to be called in. Lord POACH sTi:a appeared at the bar, and requested, on the part of the House of Commons, the attendance ot George Baron Gerelon (commtinly called the Marquis of , in the House if Commnns on Frithr next, upon an inquiry to be entered into by that Honourable House. The LORD CHANCELLOR, after receiving the Message, sated, that their Lordships would return their answer to the Commons by their own Messengers. The LORD CHANCELLOR (in the absence of the Earl of Liverpool) aid several papers on the table, connected with the ex pedition to Walcheren. The rest ot the papers, his Lordship said, were printing as fast as possible, and would, he trusted, be ready for delivery to-morrow morning. His Grace the Archbishop of CANTERBURY rose; and moved the •Itianki of the House of Lords to the Right Reverend the Bishop of Bristol, for his excellent sermon delivered on the preceding day (January 20), in Westminster Abbey Church, on the Anniversary of the Martyrdom of King Charles the First. — Carried. A person appeared at the bar, and presented the 9th Report of the Commissioners for inquiry in Ireland. The House adjourned to three o'clock afternoon. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Lord PORCHESTER reported from tke bar, that he had conveyed to the House of Lords the Message of that House, re questing dteir Lordships' permission for George Baron Gordon, to rttend the Sitting of tht Committee of that House on Friday next, and give evidence respecting the conduct of the expedition to the Scheldt ; and that their Lordships had intitnated that they would send an answer by a Messenger of their own. MILITARY FORCE. Mr. eALCRAFT moved for an account of the effective mili tary torte of this country, including the militia, on the 25th of January, in the years 1807, 1808, and 1809, respectively, with an account of the number of reeruitsto the 25th of Jaauary,lBlo, so far as the same could be made up, distinguishing those who had enlisted for limited SerAce.—Ordered. Sir JOHN NE WPORT moved for an Account of the Incidents of the Board of Customs in Ireland, for the years 1806, 7, and 8. Ordered. SirJOHN NEWPORT gave noticethat he should, on an early day, move for leave to bring in a Bill for the abolition of fees in that department. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR gave hOtice that, unless the subject shoukl be speedily taken up in the House of I.ords, or by some Member of this House of more competent abilities than himself, he should, at no distant day, fall the attention of the House to the subject of Suits in Equity on Appeal to the House of Lords. ORDNAIICiinFALCATION. Mr. CALCRAFT observed, that as there were certain confident rumours afloat, that a very consi derable defalcation had been discovered ill the ac counts of a public officer in the Ordnance Depart ment, he rose to enquire of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, whether those rumours were founded ; and, if so, whether the discovery was accidental ;—and whether the subject had been referred for further .in vestigation to the Commissioners of Military Inquiry? Tne CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER answered, that a discovery had been made, merely by accident, that drafts had been issued to a consi derable and unusual amount upon the Bank of Eng land, by an officer in the Ordnance Department. — The discovery was made on a Saturday ; and it was thought i-ght to send, on the Monday morning, or ders to the Bank forbidding the payment of any drafts drawn by that officer. The Board of Ordnance immediately instituted an inquiry on the subject ;-- but no result had as yet taken place, which rendered it necessary, in their opinion, to lay any statement before the House. The officer in question, to say the least of his conduct, had acted in violation of the orders established for the regulation of his depart ment. He had since resigned his situation ; and it was found, upon the inquiry which had already been instituted, that the public were not likely to sustain any m:iterial loss. The matter was at present under minute investigation by the Board of Ordnance ; and the subject would he ultimately referred, without delay, to the Commissioners of Military Inquiry. Mr. CA LC RA FT declared himself SP far satisfied with this explanation. PRIVATE BILL F. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in pursuance of his notice on a former night, rose to bring forward his motion for leave to bring in a Bill for promoting accuracy in proceedings upon Private Bills, in their progress through that House. It fre quently happened, that Bills . for private purposes were introduced by Members, who were themselves unacquainted with the whole of the clauses therein contained ; and there was, in fact, no responsibility whatever established for the contents of such Bills.— I They were read the first time, appointed for the se- I cond reading situ die, and afterwards committed, without any specific day being known for the pro ceedings in Committee ; v;hereby the parties adverse to such Bills had no opportunity of learning either their contents, or when to attend the proceedings thereon, but by coming, day after day, to watch their progress. Many clauses of an improper nature were sometimes introduced into such Bills, and not unfre quently escaped detection From the extensive in crease of private Bills within the last few years, a very great additional onus was thus thrown. upon the Chair, in examining the nature of those Bills, as well as much inconvenience occasioned to the parties inte rested therein. To remove these inconveniences, he would propose, that all such Bills, previously to their' introduc!i;)n into that House, should be submitted to the examination of some three or four of the long es tablished and experienced Clerks of the House, whose duty it should be to certify to the House, that no ir rec,ilar clauses were inserted. The names of those Clerks being known, reference might always be had to them by the parties interested, for all information tonchinq the nature and progress of such Bill s ; and it should' also be their duty to have notices served up on the adverse parties, of the days when to attend the Committees upon such Bills. He concluded by mov ing for leave to bring in the Bill. Mr. PARNELL thought that if the Bill should eo materially to increase the expences upon Private tills, it would he a very objectionable measure. Mr. SUMNER was of the like opinion. Mr. PETER MOORE said, the defects stated by the Right Hon. mover were already provided against, as those Bills were always revised, before they came there, by Lord Walsingham. The SPEAKER said, that the House could not hear of any authority outside these doors, to controul ' its proceedings, of which the House itself was the only competent judge. It was always his duty to examine the breviat of all such Bills ; but a clause , might sometimes be inserted of a very improper na ture, which was not announced in the breviat- This had happened, to his knowlesige, in one Bill, where i A k there wai a clause to revoke an Act d BATHURST Bill ; and . reave was THE W. Lord PORCHE, do issue his warrant General Sir Eyre Coote, _ Hope, _ others of the Generals and Staff Officers . employed on the Expedition to the Scheldt, to attend the sitting of the Committee of the House on Friday next.. —Ordered. The Noble Loid also moved, that a Message be sent to the Lords, requesting their Lordships per mission for JAMES', Earl of ROSSLY N, to attend the sit ting of the said Committee on Friday next.—Ordered. Also, that Sir HOME POPHAM, and Gen. Griosve- ' NOR, Members of that House, be requested to attend in their places on that day.—Ordered. Lord PO RCHESTER again rose, to ask his Ma jesty's Ministers, whether they had in contemplation any particular order of proceedings to be adopted on ' this inquiry, or whether they had any objection to ' carry it on de die in diem, in order to get through it as speedily as might be, as had been done in a case of a. similar nature in the year 1778 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER eoncoived it to be desirable on all sides to get rid of the subject as speedily as possible ; but considering the question of so complicated a nature, he conceived it impossible, in the present stage of the business, for the House to pledge itself to any specific mode of proceeding. Its discretion, therefore, must be guided by the circumstances that might arise in the course of the Enquiry. Mr. TIERNEY hoped there would be no objec tion on the part 0. Ministers for the House to carry on the Enquiry & die in diem, unless some matters of pressing importance should intervene to interrupt that mode. The conversation, however, terminated, without any particular arrangement being specified ; but it seemed to be the sense of the House that the Enquiry should proceed from day to day, provided the dis patch of public business should not require any inter ruption to it. NAVY ESTINfATEs. The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, Mr. WARD rose to move the Navy Estimates. The first Resolution was— " That 130,000 men be voted for the sea-service of the current year," which was agreed to. The Hon. Gentleman then said, that as some alte ration had taken place with respect to making up the Estimates, he begged leave shortly to explain the reasons which had induced the Admiralty to depart from the accustomed forms. The chief alteration would be found in the head of Wear and Tear. It had been usual to form the Estimates for the Navy under four heads, viz. Wear and Tear, Victualling, Seamen's Wages, and Ordnance for Sea Service. — The wear and tear, in last year's expences, amount ed to £11,299,000, this year it would only amount to something more than £10,000,000, by which it would appear that a reduction had taken place. Hitherto the Estimates had proceeded to take into the head Victualling of the Navy, the expences of the army in garrisons abroad. The present Admiralty, however, thinking they saw considerable difficulty attending it, wished to ascertain it as nearly as might be. In the expences of last year, the seamen's wages were esti mated at £1 I 7s. per man per month ; in the present Estimates they were taken at £1 15s. Gd. Last year 130,000 men had been voted, but the actual number had exceeded that. In some parts of the year, it was impossible to tell what the numbers were, but at some others the average might be ascertained. It was therefore his business to state, that £3,992,000 will ! give £1 13s. Gd. per man per month, and that ac counted for one part of the reduction. Last year, the Victualling Account was ,988,350, but that was not confined to the navy, but included the army abroad. The present Board of Admiralty had ascer tained, that the army part of the expences, on an average of three years, amounted to £1,193,000. — There would be a considerable reduction in the bead of Sea-fencibles, but then there would be an addi tional charge in consequence of the officers of that corps coming on half pay. Admiral MARKHAM said, that in the course of former years, it was usual to take the average. .He wished, however, to know, out of which department this was to come. The sea.fencibles were a very great expence, he believed, nearer £200,000 than £lOO,OOO. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the reduction was to be made in consequence of the intention to disband the sea fencibles ; the ex pences which he allowed were uearly what was stated by the Hon. Admiral. Mr. TIERNEY said, the Admiralty seemed to think they had done a Bread deal in clearing this par- 1 ticular charge in the navy, but he could not see any earthly purpose it would answer, but to shew a de crease in Navy Estimates, which was merely shew ; for what they gained at one end they lost at the other --while . they decreased the navy expences, those of the army increased. Sit JOHN NEWPORT wished to know if any thing was to be done respecting the Irish sea-fencibh s ? Mr. R. WARD said, they were to be entirely done away. Mr. GILES asked what was the expence of the sea-fencibles of Great Britain ? Mr. R. WARD said, he was not able to answer specifically, what the expence of the sea fencibles was. If the Honourable Gentleman wished to know the I exact amount, it could only be done by a motion for' that purpose. His Right Hon. Friend had stated, it was something nearer £200,000 than £lOO,OOO. Mr. D. GIDDY said, he was happy to hear it was intended to provide in some way for the meritorious officers of the sea-fencibles. Mr. CALCRAFT said a few words on that sub ject, but it was found be had mistaken the statement. Admiral MARKH AM said, it had always been customary to rate the wages of seamen at £l. 17s. per man per month. He did not know on what ground the new mode was founded. In the former Estimates, the sea-fencibles were included in the wear and tear; but he verily believed there was not any one at the Admiralty could give an explanation of the grounds on which the Estimates were made. Mr. R. WARD said, there never • was a Lrreatef labyrinth than the Navy Estimates. They had ways been formed under the four heads be had 1e- • •• the preselitt Boar 4 had doi e filling of Acts. The man who gave an office woulti those hads as. nauch 4s.possi- take care that the person appointed to it was capable , the. wages at 411. Is6.:td. per pf discharging the duties appertaining to it ; wh ereas could only say, that 4 i b99,950 if it was given to a person out of sight, the contrary If •the lionourabtleAdmiral as4istanco• in the' Auld very would be the case. Offices ht reversion might C e bead of wear ' given, and feared had been bestowed on person s ; . be thantful to hips. i ivhose age 'or sex were highly Otfitting to discharke. —6 sums were then voted : 1 their duties. They , might be given to a chld an - X 3,992,000 for seamen's wages, at the rate of ,El. 15s. 6d. pee' tdroti.lnd-ie walV4mportalit to reCollect, treat these . • man pis - month. • perions having - aCothe possessed of places in rive r ; C 1,997,500 for victualling, as the rate of EA, "7.t.5.A-Ler mfa.,.. 1 . s wn,. h a t a _vastaol_iatetasa w booalse person w h o g ale per month. •' them was - deailitid . gone, at no way responsibl e h a .C 1,29,7 CO for wear and tear, at she rate of Al. zas. per znan _ , what he had do le. It looked also as it: 0 per month ; and £391,500 for ordnance for the sea-service. . • not objects of trust, but merely of emoluim.'ceciso were .. It The Report was ordered . t o b e rece i ve d to-morrow. ; could not be clOubted that the main object is trust: • PLACES IN REVERSION. 'i keit this mode of granting them in reversion over ; Mr. BANKES moved, that the Bill of the last • turned the principle, and encouraged the, dangerou s Session for preventing of granting Offices in Rever- idea that offices wero . granted for the benefit of th e sjon be read, which being. done, the Honourable possessor, and. not for• the benefit of the public. It Gentleman said,. when he rose the other - day to give 'had always been the custena of the House, to cons :, notice of his intention to move for leave to bring in a. der d er t h e rights of individuals with stricter attenti on than they paid to the rights of the public. He meantßill to make perpetual the Act which had just been read, he had not the slightest idea that there would to allude oily to private rights. There were office , be any thing like opposition to it; and it was with in- which a committee on pu b lic economy must think ' finite surprise and concern he heard his Right Hon. ought to be abolished, and it was ; equally pre-s i ng , mg on Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) declare it them that this abuse should be corrected. Th er e ;vat one case in which the whole supply of metileines bo t h ing in a Bill of his own for its continuance only o ne was his intention to shorten such duration, by bring to the navy and army was in one person. Suppnsin g year longer. What reason his Right Hon. Friend that should be granted in reversion, and it night be „ could have., that had operated on his mind to do so, he necessary to buy it up—it couldeot be done, bec ause it 1 the Committee could not * lay their hands on it oft that could not even pretend to guess; but whatever f sent granted in reversion, but it might he, and if account.is might be, he. hoped and.trusted it would not operate It was true that this place was not a pre. on the mini of the House, because he thought he. were, it would be a great evil. He thought he rntle could shew, beyond a possibility of contradiction , i that it ought not so to operate. In order to do this , it ;also fairly assume that this mode of granting *us would only be necessary for him to give a concise his- , in reversion tended to increase sinecure Mikes ; f or at tory of this Bill. It would be in the recollection of all ! w h they got into particular hands, it was said they ; became vested, and they soon neglected the ditties tf those who sat in the former Parliament , that a Com mittee had been appointed to enquire into the state of I them ; and the necessary offices, when first institute d , the Finances of the country, ; and that towards the lat- Iby this mode of- granting them, became mere sine ter ter end of the Session of that short Parliament the cures. Many Members of the House had expressed Househad, in consequence of a Report of that Corn - their wishes to abolish sinecures ; and. if they were in !earnest, why should they net be equally deinolisaf mittee,resolved unanimously, that no place in reversion getting rid of that baneful practice which turns offices should be granted. When that Resolution , and the B ill grounded upon it, were brought b e fo r e the House, • that were once efficient, into mere sinecure offices, to the great detriment of the public , and injury. to the his Right Hon. Friend, though not then Minister, ; but yet a Member of the House , said not one word service of the country ? This mode of granting re. of opposition against the Bill. It was read a second i versions had also been applied to pensions, and did, time, and was in progress to a Committee , when the 1 i n f act , controul the fair exercise of the Crown in the dissolution of that Parliament stopped its progress.: distribution of its bounty granted by Parliament.— The third point it would not be necessary to enlarge On the meeting of the next Parliament , his Maje st y , , in his speech at the opening of it, expressed his pecu - i upon. Isis Right Honourable Friend had never en liar approbation of that Committee, of which this was i tered into the consideration of it in the same way the only overt act. On the meeting of the second ; many others had, who had conceited and encouraged Session, his Majesty, in his Speech, again repeated i alarms of trenching on the prerogative of the Crown. 1 This Bill rather tended to restore the prerogative.— the same approbation of that Committee. The B ill, It was well known and universally admitted, that the founded on the Resolution of the House , w as ag ain disposal of offices can only remain with the Crown; brought forward and passed , but was , un ex p ectedl y , 1 but it was equally certain that the CroWo ought to towards the close of the first Session , thrown out i n i have the office to give, unencumbered at - the time it the Lords ; when the House , taking i nto considera- Yon the lateness of the period, and the quarrels that I was bestowed. Upon these grounds he would move, were going on in the House, and finding there would 1" That leave be given to bring in a Bill, to make per. not be time to pass another Bill , thought proper to 1 petual the Act which had just been read." address his Majesty not to suffer any place in rever- Mr. HENRY THORNTON rose to second the lion to be granted during the recess. The propriety motion. Notwithstanding the respect he felt to be due of the principle that places in reversion ought not to to the other House, yet he considered that it was the be granted, was universally acknowledged. The peculiar province of that House, as guardians of t Bill, however, again failed. A consultation . took public purse, to consider of measure; which tended to place, and the Lords' Journals were inspected, to lighten the burdens of the country. He would con. see if they could find any particular reason why the ceive that it might be possible that the Peers should Bill had been rejected, but all in vain. Under all the be somewhat too precipitate in the rejection of any circumstances of the Session before last, when he thing which might appear to invade the Royal Prem. found it impossible to do more than he had done, he gative ; but still it appeared, that any thing which was himself the author of a temporary Bill, as he , regarded the expenditure of the country came more thought it afforded an opportunity to chew the tern- l naturally under the controul of the House of Gum per and moderation of the House, and, in order to moil's. It was true, that many impottant improvements avoid any thing that might lead to a misunder stand- had been introduced of late years, and that in former ing between the two Houses. In doing this, he did 1 periods of our history the power of the Crown was all he could to render it as gracious as possible, but j less controlled in respect to granting offices and pen ia no one particle of his conduct had lit ever shewn sinus than at present. It had been found necessary to the smallest tittle of inclination to give up his perpe- limit the prerogative of the Crown with tual Bill, though by inserting words suggested by his the Irish Pension List ,• nevertheless, the prin4lc of Right Hon. Friend, as likely to ease the feelings of that limitation can still be violated, as the Act only some particular individuals, he had acceded, as think- refers to the amount of the Pension List, and not to ing them of no very particular consequence. He the period for :.hick the pensions are granted. The should, therefore, think it peculiarly hard, if those consequence is, that since that restrict ion,whatever pete words, inserted in the preamble of the Act just before sions are given in Ireland, aregenerally given for mere read, should be argued against this Bill; because he than one life. He could not see any reason for preferring expressly stated, at the time, his reasons to be what an annual Bill to a perpetualone, as most abunditnuirne he had just said, and that he had never lost sight of had now been given for the consideration of the subjer a perpetual one. It now appeared to become the and Gentlemen must have perfectly formed their opi- House to shew that they were determined to carry 'lions upon it. As to the prerogative of the Cross into execution that which they had unanimously re solved. That Bill which had been rejected, could the Bill had a greater tendency to increase t han a abridge it. A gift of a place in reversion was tic , not be brought forward again ; and, therefore, the worth a sixth part of the real value of the place when best way was to revert to their former one. Suppose it should fail again, the) might then do as they had the actual possession could be given. Con slderin . the Bill, therefore, as very advantageous to the Po done before. But why suppose any prejudices should lie, an d not at all injurious to the prerogative of ll' now remain, which give. such an absurd view of the modera- Crown, he should beg leave to second the m otion. subject, after the House had shewn so much After the SPEAKER had read the propose tioa and temper ? In fact, he thought after the House Amendment, and the whole country also, had shewn so great and . The CHANCELLOR of the . EXCIIEQU E unremitting an eagerness and anxiety topass the bill, declared, that he had only to repeat theseetiment it would not be right to assume stool a thing as that w hi c h f ro m the first he had entertained on this sit' prejudices could still remain in the breasts of any ject, and which nothing had occurred to alter. H: persons elsewhere, after so much had been done to had uniformly stated, that he could not concur . allay them first, and afterwards to eradicate them.— —lt was needless, he thought, for him to call their titer with those who were friendly to the me asure posed by his Honourable Friend, or to those w attention to the necessity there was that the House were hostile to it. He could not acquiesce in should endeavour by every means in their power to opinion of the former, of the alleviation which • preserve the good opinion oft their constituents. The would cause in the public burdens ; nor in the ap. • eyes of all were fixed on them, and it was incumbent !tension of the latter, of the invasion to w hich , to shew at this important c r i s is, that the House were I would subject the prerogative of the Crown. really the representatives of the people ; in doing ; both these points great exaggeration had taken piab. which, those who wished the representation to remain He could not see any advantag e that the Pa t h as it was, were as deeply interested as those who could gain by the measure in an economical iie ' wished for reform. They should therefore persevere and with respect to the invasion of the prerogatir.: , in that course which they haid already adopted, andl the Crown, it would tend rather to increase than which had been so highly afproved by the whole na- minish that prerogative. Unfortunately an excee' .tion. There were, he sa;d, three principal points, 1 tion had been excited both in and still more out which spoke most forcibly in favour of his Bill.— . doors, of prodigious public savings from the opers,_ First, as a matter of public economy, which was al - ;- don of the proposed. measure ; and an opinim P ways highly interesting to the people, and more parti- ; been raised that those who opposed it were i ll I cularly at a period like the present, when taxes press f verse to the alleviation of the public burthens.. ~ 1 on them with peculiar severity. He was not willing thing could be more untrue. The great objectio n : l or desirous to hold out to the people any great hopes the granting of places in reversion was unquer.tal of a sensible alleviation of their burdens, for he ' ably that it put those places more out o f the roc !! feared that during the continuance of this just war, 1 Parliament, should Parliament determ ine that reac h they were more likely to be increased than diminish- i were susceptible of reform, or that they oug ht to. ! is 8 ; but if the. House would shew a design and de- abolished. He was very willing to allow, thel, Bever termination tomake retrenchments in expenses where. I that while the attention of Parliament WAS dir 6 : ever they can, it would go a great way towards ren- by the Report of the Committee of Finance to ..41. I'dering them more patient, and inducing them to bear regulation or abolition of places, the power of CI: their burthens with Tess repining. The second point ing them in reversion ought to be suspentlek Y 1 was,. that if the House prevented the granting of the House should adopt final resolutions mate offic:m in reversion s it Would certainly tenitotlta well ject, and until bills should pass to carry those IC- empowering his Majesty in Ciuncil .100tiosed ; and t of Parliament., they , ,„ • simplify tsnr suppoTted the necessity of the .blc. • pect to ras given to bring it in. *an peL , month, he co rA r.REN EXPEDITION'. woad CbVer the pay. ESTER moved, that the Spealiritileitul,d giie them any ant, requiring the attendance of,litnd tear, the Board w C(.sote, General Hope, and seve.zal The following sum: 41c sin ihl