Star. — London, England, 1822-03-19 00:00:00

• - l iving him a flag after this h is dismission, was Ct— • ing, and he • k success, the repeal of that shiest with the practice whic h ' had lon g prevailed, m ost odious t ai, the Viat Tax—(Hear,and.laughter). he (Sir J. Yorke) was at a loss to lee. Either the, Now it would be remembered that his proposition i Lords of the Admiralty were too hasty in dismissing went no farthel. than a remission of £500,000. But i him in the first instance . or they had done an input- Sis s liiglit Hon. Friend had just opened a plan by lice to the Public, by giving a flag to an O iesfficer, if which the House would be enabled not onl y to in. he had in fact been guilty of any delinquenc. In demnify the Revenue for the loss of the Salt Duty -any case, the Lords of the Admiralty-were scarcely but to raise an additional sum of £300,000 for the warranted in giving to an Officer a mark of distils& service of the year. He trusted that the Gentlemen tion, and a degree of „promotion, which he himself who were friends to the repeal of the Salt Tax would resigned all claim 'to by his own choice. He would not lose sight of the auspicious circumstances which not say how . fa . r the public. e l vice h rad been the benefi ing ted now presented themselves. Before he sat d own he ,by the dismon Admira Searle, and putt would beseech the attention of the House to the-great of Colonel Stapylton, an old Colonel of the Guards, disproportion of the duty on hops. According to the in his place. It appeared to him, that a man re- Returns before the House, the number of acres em- cpiired to qualify for that situation rather in the cock ployed in the produce of hops throughout the king- pit of a man of war than the cockpit of Whitehall.— The House had heard of an idle Secretary of Con dom was 50,000. The duty raised on amounted to £240,000; so that there was a duty on the raw troul ; -perhaps it was intended to have an idle Chair. material, the growth of our own country, at the rate man of the Victualling Board. But if it was intended of £5 per acre. He would put it to the House if this to have a Gentleman filling an important office as was not a monstrous burden on the hop harmer ? connected with the Navy, dressed tiot in unifo en rm, Mr. HUSKISSON, in explanation , said that the but in a brown coat, he would at least recommend duty which he proposed to lay on beer should be con- that the thing might be done with as little injustice tingent on the continuance of the present price of as possible to individuals. Looking at the whole beer. He had not the smallest doubt but t hat the in-, affair, he could not help pronouncing it the greatest timation would be quite enough to induce the brewers job he had ever seen. If it was necessary to put a to adopt the course which would render such a tax Civil Officer rather than a Naval one at the. head of unnecessary—(Laughter). this department, there was a Gentleman under Co- Mr. CALCRAFT." 1, on the contrary, reckon load Stapylton at the Navy Board, who had but on the firmness of the brewers." £2OO a-year salary, and who would be therefore a Mr. DAVENPORT expressed his approbation of fitter object for promotion. Colonel Stapylton had the plan suggested by his Right Hon. Friend. been first Paymaster of the Navy, then a Commis- Mr. BUXTON said that he had already stated his sioner of the Navy Board, and he was now made opinion that it would be a monstrous thing that the Chairman of the Victualling Board. Having stated benefit of a remission of the duty on malt,which was these facts, he wished to have an answer, whether intended to be general, should be confined to the this case of Admiral Searle's was to be made a pre brewers—(f_ear, hear).—lt would be necessary, how. cedent for future occasions? and whether it was in ever, to give the brewers a little time, as they had a tended by Government to bestow the flag upon Of-1 1 considerable quantity of malt on hand which had ficers who had accepted a civil office fiom choice, paid the full duty, and it would be but fair to allow and, therefore, virtually abandoned their claim to them the full price on the beer manufactured from that distinction ? this malt. For himself he could only say that he Sir GEORGE COCKBURN rose to explain the concurred so far with the Right Hon. Gentleman's reasons which actuated the Lords of the Admiralty plan that, in case it should be necessary, be would in dismissing Admiral Searle, as well as to free -the cordially second his proposition—(llear). -character of that officer from any imputation which Sir J. YORKE said, that as lie had begun the con. might be cast upon him by such dismissal. In set versation on a former night, he hoped he would ting out he was bound to say, that there was not in be permitted to suggest what he considered as im- tile service a more deserving officer than the gallant portant in the plan of his Right Hon. Friend. If his Admiral in question. But he had to complain that Right Hon. Friend should ultimately bring in . a Bill in the statement of circumstances connected with his to the effect mentioned, lie (Sir J. Yorke) hoped that dismissal, the gallant Officer who had spoken last it would embrace a penalty on brewers who should attempted to mislead the House by wilfully mime send out, under the name of porter, a beverage of presenting facts. The fact was that complaints had inferior quality. been made as to the manner in which the subordinate Mr. HUSKISSON said that would not undertake Clerks at the Victualling Office did their duty, and to introduce such a clause himself; nor, if such a one he (Sir George Cockburn) together with others, found was enacted, would he undertake to be the taster of themselves under a necessity of setting an inquiry on the suspected liquor--(A laugh). foot. In the result it was found that there was not Mr. CURWEN agreed in the policy of the mea- so much economy of time, a complete check on the sire which the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed; but Clerks, which the Public had a right to expect, and he believed that the feelings of the country were, un. under these circumstances the Lords of the Admi doub7edly, for leaving the Malt Duty as it was, and ralty removed Admiral Searle from the chief place re , ,ealing the ditty on Salt. in the O f fi ce. This removal, however, was not to be General GASCOYNE approved of the measure taken as detracting from the merit of the gallant of the Right Hon. Gentleinan, but wi-lied that the Officer in question, for as he said before, a more de- Chancellor would give time until Friday to consider serving Officer was not in the service. It was cer the plan of the Right lion. Gentleman. tainly true that he had made his option of remaining Mr. CUST objected to the delay, as likely to excite in the civil service rather than receive a flag ; and it anxiety in the country. was no less true that that distinction had been con- Mr. CALCRAFT, in explanation, said he was no ferred upon him a short time ago; but Government friend to a commutation of taxes ; but he believed .sere doing but an act of justice, when they them that the repeal of the Salt Doty would be a far more selves thought proper to remove Admiral Searle, to acceptable measure to the country than the present, put him in the same situation with respect to promo limited reduction of the Malt Duty. tion as if he had never made his election to remain The amendments were then agreed w, and the Bill in a civil employment. The flag had been given to was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. him with a view of sheaving to the world, that though CONIMTILE OF 5r.:11 , 1.y. he had been removed from his situation, yet his cha- On the motion that the House Liu resolve itself into ratter was unimpeached. Admiral Seal le, though a Committee of Supply, a deserving Officer, and a man who in time of war Mr. BERNAL said, lie thought this a proper op. could manage the affairs of' the Board well, yet, per opportunity to correct a mistatenaent, uninten- from his naval education and habits, was unequal to tiunally made by his Hun. Friend (Mr. Hume), re- the details necessary in a time of peace. It was from specting the period of service of a Gentleman who a conviction of this nature that the Lords of the Ad had served as Comptroller of Customs at Dover, and miralty were induced to put a civil officer at the who was now on the Superannuation List. His Ho- head of the Victualling Office, and to make a naval nourable Friend had complained that this individual officer Vice-Chairman. With regard to what had had been put on the Superannuation allowance, al- been said by the gallant Officer respecting his own Clough he had served but fifteen years. The Hon. conduct at the Victualling Board, he (Sir George) Gentleman proceeded to shew that lie had served in conceived that the avowal of his having voted against other situations in the department for fifteen years his conscience for eight years did that gallant Officer more, making altogether a service of thirty years.— no great credit; for he should have retired long since, Ile had been superannuated at the age of 82 years. rather than have given his sanction to measures Mr. HUME said, be had no recollection of the which his conscience did not approve. He would name of the individual, but lie only founded his contend, that it was obligatory on every public man statement on the Returns before the House, where it to follow the path which his conscience and his duty would appear that fifteen years service only were pointed out to him, and when, by any circumstances ascribed to this individual. he was prevented from following that path, then ADMIRAL. SEARLE. ought he, by retiring, to discharge himself from the Sir J. YORKE said, he had" now to call the at- responsibility which otherwise attached to him. This tention of the House to a subject purely naval. The was the course which he himself would always follow. case to which he alluded was that of Captain Searle, Mr. ELLICE said he had known Admiral Searle who had been Head Commissioner of the Victualling for many years, and he never heard an imputation Board, and was lately made Admiral of the White. thrown upon his character. His conduct at the head It was necessary to premise, that the usage of the of the Victualling Board had been panegyi ised at a Navy was, that a Captain, after a certain period of time when this country required the best zeal and service, was entitled to a flag—but that if, in the in- the ablest integrity—when our fleets were in every terim, he accepted of any civil situation, the course part of the globe—and it was a little uncandid now of promotion was suspended in his case. In all in- to turn round upon him, when there was no longer stances it was left to the choice of the individual the same necessity for such services. But, perhaps, himself, either to hold the civil office or relinquish as the gallant Officer observed, the peculiar talents it for the rank of Admiral. This Gentleman had, of Admiral Seatle fitted him to' grasp the great oc according to custom, been offered his choice of a flag casions which occurred in time of war, rather than or to remain in a civil situation. Ile chose the latter., the minute details of an office in time of peace. It It was, therefore, a matter of some surprise, that after was, be supposed, for these reasons that the Lords of making his choice, and being dismissed that situation, the Admiralty thought proper to remove him. He lie should be again gratified with a flag. He (Sir J. (Mr. Ellice) had called upon Admiral Searle lately, Yorke) did not object to this arrangement, but he and he had then an opportunity of seeing the letter wished to know whether it was intended to make this which the First Lord of the Admiralty rote to him a precedent for future cases? It was certainly but announcing his dismissal. This letter was couched just, that men who devoted themselves to an ar- in the kindest terms, and the Noble Lord wok occa duous profession, thereby giving up many 'of the Sion-to thank him for the many services he performed comforts of life, should be duly rewarded, and he during the war. It was not true, therefore, as stated was aware that Admiral Searle was a most merito- by a &anent Officer opposite (Sir Joseph Yorke), that rious Officer. Indeed, the several marks of appro. Admiral Searle had any reason to complain of the bation which he received from time to time from the manner in which the determination of the Lords of Lords of the Admiralty, bore testimony to his worth. the Admiralty was conveyed to him. He (Mr. El-' During the war, he received from the Treasury a lice) had seen the letter, and he could state from his high salary, in addition to his salary as an Officer, own knowledge that it was couched in the kindest and, besides that, there was a pension of £3OO given terms. He ants glad that this subject had been men. to his Lady during her own life. Some time ago, tioned, as it gave him an opportunity not only of however, he fell under the displeasure of the Lords vindicating the character of Admiral Searle, but also of the Admiralty, and in consequence of complaints of paying a tribute to the kind conduct of the Noble • being made of the manner in which the subordinate Lord at the head of the Admiralty. Officers performed their ditty, lie ceased to be Chair- Sir G. COCKBURN said, there a regula man of the Victualling Boaid. Now t bow far the, tion by which art Officer, on account of a certain ire- - riod of service in war, was allowed to change his si tuation. That period Admiral' Searle ,had :erred ten times over. Sir I. COFFIN had known the gallant Admiral whose name had been so repeatedly mentioned for many years, and was satisfied that there was not a more honourable character nor a mote benevolent man in the service. Mr. ELLICE wished to remark, that if the gallant Admiral had retired, instead of taking a flag-ship, the expense to the country would have been greater. Mr. CROKER remarked, this removal, and the consequent appointment, had been called a job. He begged to state most clearly, that the first great in ducement to put the Gentleman now at the head of, the Victualling Board in the situation which he now filled, grew out of the great ability with which he had finest interior offices. It was granted without any solicitation or interest—be was wholly ignorant of its being intended so to advance him, and was pro bably as much surprised at it as his Hon. Friend could be. Ile had, however, been chosen because no other man of his rank stood so high in the estima tion of his superiors. He had also been preferred in an economical point of view. Two Commissioners from the Navy Board, of which ke was one, were to be provided for. By the course which had been taken, their services had been transferred to the Vic tualling Board, and thus a saving of 1,4001. a year was effected, while the business of that Board was performed in a better manner. Sir J. YORKE had never meant to impute any delinquency to him. He only thought he had been too hasty in removing him, and that having broken his head in the first instance, the new appointment was given by way of a plaister! The question was then put and carried, and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. SUPPLY. Sir J. OSBORN moved a grant for the expense of the Navy Office, for the year 1822, of 64.,8951. Mr. HUNIE objected to the number of Commis sioners kept up. The saving made by the reduction effected was in a great measure counterbalanced by the superannuation allowances. In 1792, the expense of the Navy Office was but-12,0001. In 1796, it amounted to but 46,4611. He would therefore put it to the House, if now, in time of peace, the sum of 61.,8951. ought to be demanded? Sir J. OSBORN defended the grant, and spewed that but a small saving could be looked for from re• ducing the Commissioners, as they must be provided for on retirinF. Mr. CROKER concurred with the gallant Officer who spoke last, that little more in the way of 'educ tion at the Navy Office was to be expected. He would state why further reductions in that department could not be made. Since last year there were no less than five Commissioners of the Navy reduced, two of whom belonged to the Board, and the other three were at the outports. By a new arrangement the business was divided between the Navy Board and the Victualling Office. The result of this was to transfer a greater portion of duty to the Victualling Boat d, in which, however, there was not an increase of officers, but there was a diminution in the Victual ling Board. But it would not be advisable to dimi nish the Navy Board further, for this reason—the business was divided at the Navy Board amongst Committees, of which there was one for each class of business. In so complicated and extensive a de partment as the Navy, it might he easily supposed that there could not be less than four general heads of management. It, however, the business should so far decrease that two Committees might be put into one, a saving might be made in that way, but in any other circumstances he could not hold out the hope of any considerable reductions in the Navy Of fice. It was said that the reduction of the clerks was counterbalanced by the increase of the Superannua tion List, but would the Hon. Member say that no remuneration should be made to men who had spent their lives in the service? It should be recollected that these men were employed during the war, the termination of which could not be foreseen, and it would be harsh and unjust to cast them away with out some provision. But the allowances which were made, were calculated, not upon the old Superannua tion Act, but upon the projected new and economi cal graduated scale—(Hear). Ministers were entitled to credit for having adopted the more economical plan. The Hon. Secretary then proceeded to compare these establishments, as they existed now, with what they had been last year. Confining himself entirely to the offices in town, the fixed establishment of the Admiralty OfEce, Pay Office, Navy Office, and Vic tualling Office, for last year, was 317 clerks : this year there were but 263, which was a reduction of 54 clerks in the four offices in town. The expense of these offices it was difficult to present at one view, as the clerks were paid according to the length of service. Taking each clerk, however, at an average et ten years, the expense of these offices in 1821, was £107,000; in 1822, 74,000; making a reduction of £33,000 since last year. He admitted that the Pub lic would not have the immediate benefit of this re duction; but it was necessary that the clerks should have a means of living. The charge of the Retired List was 1:20,000, but this was an expense which would be diminishing every year. Besides which, in every case where the parties were at all capable, all vacancies at the different offices would be filled from the Retired List—(Hear, hear). Hitherto it had been the practice to promote all the clerks indiscriminately, according to their seniority ; but as many were thus promoted who were incapable of filling higher offices, the consequence was that they were obliged to be dis missed, and, indeed, the greater number upon the Retired List were placed there for these reasons. This would not Occur again, from the system to be adopted of promoting none but men of merit. In the Admi ralty Office, he could assure the House, reduction had been carried to the greatest possible extent ; and, indeed, so far had it been carried, that sonic incon venience occurred lately in the office from the absence of some of the junior clerks from indisposition. This circumstance, however, did not make him regret that he had made such reductions, for he felt that, in times of distress like the present, the other clerks were called upon to make greater exertions, and thus make the absence of those who were indisposed less felt. Under these circumstances he could not pledge him.: self that it was possible to carry reduction farther than it had keen carried already. -Sir BYAM MARTIN traced the constitution of the Navy Board to the recommendation of the Commis- sinners in 1784. To 1790, Lord Spencer being them 1 t the head of the Admiralty, the suggestions of th e Commissioners of 1784 were adopted, and the esta. ,blishment *as not then swelei out as it *as in the following year. Three individuals had then been as. signed to each Commission. That number hid bee n reduced to two. If the number of Coramissitms could be reduced, it would be his duty to suborn this to Ministers, and by them he was certain it wool ; b e readily acquiesced in, when proved to be practicable and consistent with the public interest. The Esti mates nosy produced were £987,000 lower than those of last year. So large a reduction having taken place, he had expected that thej would be carried by accla. mation,_ and not that evety item would be cr.ibbled on and debated. Since, however, they were to be debated, he hoped the House would take the fact, that a saving of nearly one million bad been erected as a sort of text. Mr. BERNAL thought the icallant Officer ong7 l , not to feel angry that the Estimates were deba..:l Things might be pointed out of which he was r0 , . - aware, and which, when pointed out, he wopld b. ; happy to redress. 11 such savings could be made now, it might be fair to ask why they had not been made three or four years ago? He did not with t. quibble, and he was confident those about him v. c.:e above anything of the kind. Sir BYAM MARTIN did not mean to apply tl e word quibble in the sense in which the lion. Ger° . man seemed to take it. Sir I. COFFIN said, the establishments could not be broken down all at once. He had to reply to tLe statement of the Hon. Gentleman that ' ,fly:der aril shot was constantly being discharged ove: board, th at our Navy was reduced to 14 sail of the line, 112 1.1. gates, and 61 store ships and other vessel , in all I t•:7. 'What they had to do was to fire five salutes each in the course .onf the year, in addition to going through their weekly exercise. This, he said, was a cnriec: view of the case. He did not wish to disguise tl facts, for he had no wish to become a new Lord of the Admiralty, if that Board were to be re,tured to its pristine beauty. Mr. HUME thought the Committee aught not t , ..% give in to the idea of the Hon. Officer, by from discussing the Estimates. He went over the former charges under the same heads, and contended the present reductions did i.ot go far enough. T4kir 4 ; the Estimates of 1821, for the Half-pay and Super. annuation List, he would compare them with ti.: Estimates of that year : Their total amount was in I S'2l In the present year - £1,484,000 1,453,000 aC31,003 The whole reduction being This, being fairly taken, was the reduction on he would call the Live Establishment I Now with re spect to the building— Sir J. YORKE addressed the Chair, but was call:td, to order. He said he wished to speak to order. Ile! thought it irregular to advert to another head of ex, pense—( Cries of Order!) Mr. HUME maintained that he had a right to pr.?. vent the speech of the Hon. Member from producing that impression which it was calcula ed to create if it passed unnoticed. The charge for ship bui:ding had been 1,091,0001. It was brought down to 610,0001. being a reduction of 400,0001. on o:ioitem. —The dock yard ex f eases had been reduced from 454.000/. to 151,000/. Ile however wished the Com mittee not to suppose that more credit belonged :a Ministers than was really their due. This saving h.:l .only been effected by reducing the numbers employeL He should be glad if the principle laid down by n nisters for recalling to active service those who wete superannuated, were really acted upon. All he would say was, he hoped they should see at a inter.: day some good result from the determination which had been announced. He was aware that by seniority in dividuals sometimes got to the head of an office, who were unequal to the proper discharge cf it, duties; but these instances, so far as he was informed, were very few. But professing to act on the new principle, from the exper'erce they had of all Governments, it was to be found that it was not merit that would g tin promotion, but interest and favour. For his own part, he would rather that seniority should be the rule of advancement, and that when a superior man F as to be brought forward, his promotion should be an ex ception to the rule. He wished to know what incon venience had been experienced in the Artillery Corps from acting on that principle which he now advo cated? Take them Officer for Officer, he believed the Artillery Officers would be found superior to the Officers in the Army. In one item he found a small increase. Instead of six, there were seven messen gers, one at 1151, two at 1101. two at 100/ and two at 701. per ann. He wished to know the cause of this ? Sir B. MARTIN stated the present number to be insufficient. They had daily representations on the subject of their being too few. Sir I. COFFIN spoke to the great labour which the messengers had to perform. Mr. CROKER said, a Return had been ordered by the House of the state of the Admiralty in 1793, and he found that the expense was greater then than it was now. The office which he had the honour to hold had a salary of 8001. but the known and admit ted fees amounted to 5,0001. and other emoluments, he had been informed, made the total 12,000/. When "the salaries were looked at, it would be found th..: they were utterly inadequate, but the fees were enor mous. The expense to the Public was the same then as now, but the sums then realized by the secretary, which gave him a vast fortune, were now more equi tably divided among the other Officers. To shew that the attention of Government had been steadily directed towards reducing the Admiralty Establish ment, he would state the scale on which they had been reduced through a series of years. The numbers re tained at the several periods he would particularise were as follow : In 1813 1814 1815 1816 1817 55 I In 1818 1819 _ IS - '26 18!0 29 I 1891 to 1322 - It would thus be seen that the reductions effected were not done on a sudden, but from that period when we were in the height of war they had goae on gradually. Perhaps it would be said the addi tional Clerks who had been employed were kept out of sight. He would state what the numbers hal been that were employed in the four Navy Offices.— In 1813, there were 550. In INV, the 550 were reduced to 446, and itl 1822, the last meatioac.l ~.. 1