Star. — London, England, 1823-02-12 00:00:00

P.atiAIiENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY ii. The Loan CRANCILLOR entered the House a little before I Are o'clock. Lord GRE'JVILLE presented a Petition from the Bankers, Merchants, Traders, and other Inhabitants of Wolverhampton, praying for a repeal of the Insolvent Debtors'AeL—Ordered to lie on the table. Lord EL LENBOROUGH said that, In pin-Aram of the notice he had given on Friday last, the Bill for amending the late Marriage Act had been presented yesterday, and was now printed aml lying en their Lordships' table. He now gave notice that he should move the second reading of the Bill on Monday nett : and he thought that before that day their Lordships . would have full and sufficient time to take the provisions of the Bill into consideration. On the motion of the Earl of SHAFITSIIIIIT, the House ad journed to Thursday next. HOUSE OF COMMONS. . The &MAZER took the Chair at four o'clock. A new writ was ordered for the Borough of Arundel, for a - Member in the place of licomax BLAKE, Esq. deceased. On the motion of Mr. CURWE74, a Return was ordered to he laid on the table of the quantity of Tallow and Hemp, imported and exported to and from the United Kingdom, during the year, ending the sth of February, 1823. Mr. LYTTLF.TON presented a Petition from Wolverhamp ton against the Insolvent Debtors' Act ; which, after a few words from Lord ALTHORTI, was ordered to be laid on the table. Lord HOBART, in persuance of his notice yesterday, moved for a call of the House for Thursday, the 20th instant,. the day of discussiim on the Catholic Question. He considered it need less to waste the time of the House by any further observations, as every Hon. Member would admit the necessity of the fullest attendanoe on so important a subject.—Ordered. Lord A LTHORFE gave notice that, on that day week, he would call the attention of the House to the present mode of collecting small debts. Dr. LUSH I NOTON presented a Petition from certain Elec tors of the County of Sligo, complaining of interference in the election of Members for that place, on the part of Lord King ston.—Ordered to be taken into consideration ott the 13th Marcb. Mr. GOULI3URN obtained leave to bring in a Bin to conti• nue the Irish Arms Act. Mr. F. LEW IS moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend and explain the Turnpike Acts. After a short conversation, in which Mr. CURVIEN, Mr. H. G. BINVET, and Sir Thous Ace lava, took part, the motion was agreed to. Mr. 110 liliOUS E gave notice, that after Easter he should resew` Isis motion for the repeal of the Window Tax. But whe ther he should press the measure on the House would depend upon three points—first, whether tke country condoned at peace ; secondly, whether the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. I%laberly) for the repeal of the whole of the Assessed Taxes should he carried ; and, thirdly, whether Government itself would bring forward en effectual measure. IRISH xzOMANRY BILL. Mr. GOULBURN, pursuant to notice, rose to move I for leave to bring in a Bill to amend and continue the Irish Yeomanry Act, which would expire in the course of a few weeks. • Mr. HUME said, that he would put it to the 110- nourable Gentlemau whether be .seriously meant to continue the Yeomanry Act of Ireland at an expense of £66,000 a year, after the Police Pill which was passed last year, s and which should certainly render the present Act unnecessary ? It w as really too hard that the country should be saddled with so heavy an iiicumbrance to support an establishment which, from all he understood since 1798, the year of the Rebel lion, was of very little service. ..Not . only was it of little service, but the cause of considerable mischief. TneYeomanry Corps in many districts were composed principaily of Orangemen, who, so far from contri bating to the peace and tranquillity of the country, were the principal promoters of every riot and excess. This was chiefly to be observed in the north of Ire land, and it would be in the recollection of many Honourable Members, that in the course of last-year, when they were called out, instead of repressing the disturbances, they aggravated and increased them— (Hear, bear).—The tr uth was, that the whole the Yeomanry establishment of Ireland was a complete job; and one of the grossest that ever. came within his observation. The House would scarcely believe, that by a Paper which he had moved for last Session, and which he had taken a glance at that.day, there were tett Brigade Majors retired on pensions belonging to the Yeomanry Corps : none of them declared to be unfit for service, and at an expense of £1:171 paid to them—some of them after only ten or fifteen years screice! Some who were invalided were, as he un derstood, not. older than himself, and in much better health than he was-(litmghter).—And he would be glad to ask, whether he could have the face, impu.; dent as he . was—(Laughter)—to come and ask a pen sion for a broken constitutioe ? Such a proceeding, though sttange here, was nothing new in Ireland.— One of the times he would particularly allude to was that of Mr. Collis, who was stated to have retired on a pension from infirmity of body. He (Mr. Hume) requested to apply for correction to the Honourable Member for Sligo, if he was mistating the facts but ou'derttood that Mr. Collis was not more than 50 rats: of age, both stout and healthy ; that he was Treasurer to the Couuty, and in possession of his own income of £2OOO a year. In looking, therefore, at the Honourable Secretary's Estimates—all drawn up with great attention to economy, no doubt, to use the words of the day—they would find in them a sum of £1571 paid to retired Officers, to make way for those wiieujoyed £5750 a year from their places—(Rear, hear). --It was, however, only one of those fifty or sixty jobs, every one of which was more gross than the other. He hoped that the House would, before voting the money, support him in requiring the cer tificates on which these Gentlemen were invalided.— If the accounts were ordered, he trusted to see them in such a way that the real expense could be got at --(Hear, Hear). —It was a great shame, in his opi ziieti, that, after the measures which were carried last year, this additional expense should be continued. It was a tart of the conduct of the Irish Government, which was For many years managed in the most abo r&nable manner—at least so far as regarded consi derations of expense. He would not, at present, op pose the bringing in of the Bill; but he trusted that, daring its progress through the House, the fullest in formation would be afforded on all points connected with . the selject. Mr. GOULBURN said, that he did not think it necessary to reply to all the topics on which the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) had spoken, as the intro- di.l4tiein . ef them at present was quite unusual from a r e practice of former times; and as they more pro perh belonged to the general discussion of the Army EstiMates--(ffear, hear).--:ludccd, he was not pre -o,ll.the instant, to give the particulars of re tire:li ent of eachofficer, or the reason why !11r. Collis, who had been distinctly •alluded .to, was invalided. He would, however, be ready in his place on arty 'regain - debate on the subject specially, or on the Army Estimates generally, to enter on a discussion, „gad eaplaio the points in a manila satisfacterr to the Honse, if not to the Hon. Member hint lag—(Rtar).—..l At the close of the war there was a. v,er.con s iderable number if Brigade Majors in activeemploythent, a gnat many of whom were invalidedrind the super numeraries were put . upon half pay. No appoint merr had since taken place that was not filled up from that half-pay list. If therbie, a retired list could be brought forward as **large _against the present Lad Lieutenant, or the preceding Irish Go 'eminent, it was to be seen that they preferred rather -filling up all vacancies from the half-pay list than from their own friends—(Hear, hear). Mr. ABERCROMBY considered that it would be ,unwise first to pass the Yeomanry Continuation Act, and then go into an examination of the objections to it.: For his part, he came down to the House, in consequence of the notice of the Hon. Secretary, with the greatest anxiety—a solicitude which every person must share who observed the critical and alarming state of Ireland at the present moment, and a Bill at the same time brought in for establishing a corps of Yeomanry, to the greater part of which, if not to the whole, he looked with much anxiety, if not with sus picion—(Hear).—He hoped at least that it would not be pressed through the House until the arrival of the Attorney-General for Ireland, o who would, no doubt, bring before them the actual and alarming state of that country, which required the serious and careful consideration of the House—(hear, hear)—a situa tion certainly nothing novel in the history of Ireland, where the same causes of discontent were long known to exist, but which accident had brought before the public lately—(icar, hEar).—Hc trusted to see all the circumstances to which he alluded, and-the ge, neral state of the country, brought before them, that, on the part of the people of Ireland, a full, general, and anxious investigation should take place. He was certain that the Attorney-General for Ireland would, horn respect to himself, from respect to the Lord Lieutenant, and to the House, bring all the circumstances before the serious consideration of Par liament— (icar, hear). —He trusted, that before the discussion on that most important of all questions, , the Catholic Question, they would be submitted to the' House, and- its opinion delivered on .them in the, strongest and most pointed manner—(Hear). Mr, .G09.4111:111N and . Mr. VSZEY FITZGERALD both rose at the same momen ts the former was called upon to go on; the latter accordingly gave way. Mr. GOULBe RN, in explanation, said that he did not expect, in merely . moving for the continuance of the. Yeomanry Act, ta , be required to go into the general state of the- country. He did not press the I I motion from any wish- to hurry the Bill through the formi Of the House, but he submitted it thus early, in compliance with the wishes of the House, ex pressed last Session, that the' Irish business should be 'laid as early as possible upon the table, for the fullest information of Hon. Members—(Hear, hear). — And he begged particularly to disclaim. all intentions of taking the House by surprise—(gear, hear).—The Hon. Gentleman opposite stated that the Yeomanry Corps Bill was one which, under the peculiar cir cumstances of the country, 'ought not to be conti nued. While he (Igr. Goulburn) deferred the dis cussion of the general qtiestion to another opportu nity, he could, at the present, recall to the attention of Hon. Members, that Yeomanry Corps have been Of considerable service to the country. Lest year, when an immediate force was necessary, the only force which Government could lay its finger upon at the montent—not for the purpose of increasing their patronage, but for .preserving the lives of the inhabitants--wat that body of inn which was then spoken g with (o much reprohation--(Heer, hear). To argue the necessity of their further continuance, would be to debate a principle which was already sanctioned both in England. and -I,rehinii—(l/ear). With respect to th e other circumstances which had been alluded to, be could . Only ply, at present, that they would become matterof grave deliberation— (ffeap;,hear),—He would fOr the present abstain from any: espression of the fielinis of the Irish Govern thed upon the M—not from any desire to avoid the fallen explanatipo, but from a conviction . that that moment was not one on which they could enter upon the subject with advantage either to the Irish Go vernment, to the House, or to the country at large. Mr. -ABEitettomat exPlained gist b e did not intend to give an oppo s ition tQ trie.Continitante of the Yeomanry Corps, he only said that it should be looked upon with great jealousy in the peculiar dr ciithitincei in which Ireland was then placed, and he wished that it should be iliOr4d for an ample opportunity oisliscussing ;be whole qnestion. Mr. V. FITZGERALD said that he protested against the wide and sweeping charge brought against the Yeomanry .Corps of It eland. He was not prepared to deny. that several objections rn • be fairly urged against the Corps of many counties; but to involve in one general charge a body of men, who have been ilitistrioui in the history of their coun try, who have fought for it in danger, and suffered fatigue in its service; was.extremelyitiliberal. Having had the honour to command the Yeomanry of the county (Clare) which he represented, he could prove decidedly, so far from their being subject to the in fluence of Orangeism, there was not one Orangeman in the corps, and even there were not, he believed, ten Protestants in it. In a neighbouring county there was not a single Protestant in the corps, and he could say of them with pride, that for the last two years the peace of that part of the country was to be attributed to their good conduct. Unless it was to be contended that the Yeomanry should be abo lished altogether, the objections to the present Bill could not be maintained, With regard to the super annuation cases which had already been alluded to, he could, as one not long since. connected with the Irish Administration, safely say that no superan nuation was ever made with a view to make room for any favourite or dependent of the Goiernment. As to the special case of Mr. Collis, the Hon. Meakt:er (Mr. Hume) was not correctly informed on the facts. Instead pf being tint 44 yeah of age, his years of service were 45—an invalid and_ a meritorious . Of& cer. There might be two Gentlemen of the name of Collts, but he believed he spoke of the same. person, to whisM the Honourable Gentleman referred. He wopld not occupy the time of the, House any further, ashis sole object in rising was to rescue the Yeomanry Corps from the Actual imputation which was cast upon tbesm-..-partteularly those in the South of Ire land, Wise, had fought 'kir their CODDtTy manfully, and who were loyal subjectsaid brave 40ites,. Mr. SPRING RICE was extremely wain -to rot(- rlin the fait:l[ll l We statement or thelion.Ggtileman ritigeralii, as far ,as it relkar , t;_dlhelf_d_ma . p r the Saudi of Ireland, but tho forced hoc a,irery small Oroportion to the, nutpber..An the, Nor hein counties, particularly in the province of Ulster, where they were at least two-sevenths of the whole population. All the Northern Corps were objection able with regard to Orange principles, of which they openly boasted, and these objections more forcibly applied to those in Ulster. He would not touch on the general subject at present, as he looked to some great measure being likely to be brought forward, from the developeinent of the late peculiar circum stances. Unless some measure was submitted to put down Orange Associations, and their interference in the politics of the country, he should feel it his duty, in the progress of the presenillal, to introduce a clause to prevent Orange Yeomanry, at least, from processions, and armed party displays, which al ways had the effect of irritating the public mind, and • led to the worst results. - - Mr. VEZEY FITZGERALD, in explanation, ad mitted that the large proportion, of Yeomanry was in the North of Ireland, and to a part of their conduct objection might properly apply. Mr. HUME, in explanation, said, as •he was cor rected in the statement of one fact, he apprehended that the Hon. Member (Mr. V. Fitzgerald) was under a mistake himself; as he found, on referring to the official document, the name of G. Collis, retired, 25th June, 1816, after ten or eleven years service, on £136 a year. Mr. PEEL said, that the number of retired Bri• gade-MajOrs arose from a great reduction of the Yeo manry Corps in the year 1816, and consequent su perannuation of many of those Officers. The debate then dropped, and leave was given to bring in the Bill. RUSSIAN LOAN. Mr. HUME said, that many Members were not probably aware that we had undertaken to pay a loan of 3,000,0001. to the Emperor Alexander, in conjunction with the Sovereign of the Netherlands. The loan was contracted at Amsterdam in 1815, and according to the stipulations of it, we were to be insured the possession of the Cape of Good Hope and of Demerara. These colonies were a burden to us, 'instead of an advantage, and the sooner we got rid of them the better. His object now was, to shew what amount of the money in question had been paid from . the year 1815 : up to• the present period. Ac ' cording to the statements he had consulted, from 600,0001. t0*700,000/. had been paid, and as we had still to pay a sum of 2,900,0001. this. might be a pro per time to get rid of the engagement altogether, when Europe was again on the eve of being convulsed with war. The Hon. Member concluded by moving for an account of the principal of the Russian Dutch Loan, the payment of which had been undertaken by Great Britain, by a contract of the 19th of May, 1815; and also the amount of principal and interest paid from that period up to the sth 'of September, 1822.—Motion agreed to. IRISH QUIT-RENTS AND CROWN LANDS. Mr. HUME said, there was another subject to which he wished to call the attention of the House; he meant the Irish Crown Lands and Quit-rents. He would on an early day submit a proposition to the House for appropriating the proceeds of the Quit rents and Crown Lands in Ireland to the discharge of the National Debt—(Hear,hear).--The-Quit-rents now produced only about 62,0001. or 63,0001. per annual: but he understood that they might be made worth between 2,000,000/. and 3,000.0001. sterling. While upon this subject he could not help complain ing that the Triennial Report of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests had not been laid before the House. He wished now to have that Report pro .duced, as he desired that the proceeds of the Crown Lands in England should also be applied to the li quidation of the Public Debt. The Honourable Meinber then moved for a Report of the Commis sioners of Quit-rents and Crown Lands in Ireland ; and also for an abstract of the amount of Three per Cent. Stock p_urchased under them. Mr. GOOLBUIIN said, that the Honourable Mem ber seemed to overlook the measure which had been introduced by an Honourable Friend of his last Ses sion, for the purpose of enabling the Treasury to dis. pose of the Crown Lands and Quit-rents in Ireland Upon the most advaatageous terms. Mr. HUME contended that the provisions of the existing Acts on the subject had not been carriectinto execution. His object was to give full effect to the sale. Mr. CIOULRURN said, that the Bill introduced last Session was for .the purpose of rendering the pre ceding Acis more effectual.—Motion agreed to. OFFICE OF VICE-TREASURER OF IRELAND. Mr. HUME again rose.to address the Chair, and adverted to the office of Vice-Treasurer of Ireland, which, he said, had originally been established from motives of. economy, at .the time when the two Ei chequers of England and Ireland were consolidated. Few his own part,' be thought that all the business which appertaiiied tb that office might he transacted more effectually in London than in Dublin. If Members would look into the list, they would .find not less 'than 296 persons at present dependent on the Lord Lieutenant. Now there was no necessity whatever for this body of retainers; for every duty which devolved on the Lord Lieutenant might be discharged in the British Metropolis with more ad vantage to the Public. He would take an early oc casion to call the attention of the House to the de tails of the Vice-Treasurer's Office. The individual at the head of it had been appointed at a high 'so lary, which had been afterwards reduced to 2,0001. He (Mr. Hume) was prepared to shew that we now paid 7,000/. or 'B,OOOl. a year, to keep ep an office which was of no use whatever. It appeared that the Vice- Treasurer (Sir George Hill) 414 little or nothing at the office, for he spent half of his time in the House of Commons, a quartet of a year in Derry, and about a month Dublin. The -Honourable Member, in conclusion, • moved for copies of any correspondence between the' Chief Secretary for Ireland and the Ckancellor of the Exchequer, respecting the office of Vice-Treasurer, and of any warrants issued to him for the payments of salaries.--nra..'" Mr. LUSHINGTON moved that part of the Lords Com missionen' Report.which related to the intended Reductions in the ilapenditore tie referradtia a Committee to-sa:crow,. Mr t HU4IL wished t 5) know whether the items of reduction were to be kiebefore The House? • - • * Mr. LUSHINGTMW Said he was &slit ready -to furnish the goderiary FAtimeter..-01atisit agreed to. • . Mr. W. SD , lllll.6toved this there be laid before the House Aenuitt of all rental In itld lama! &afflatus Eichnitter. frptn tl. Stb Fetntary, down te the latest petiod!uwitick the sante could be mule out..... Ordered . the motion of Mr. Witatos, the West India "Bade litlt - stssnt,through a Committee of the whole House.—The Report: was urtiered to be brought up to4norrow. Mt. HUME gave notterthat he should to-morrow move-thai there be laid before the House an Account of the Stipends patt o to the Scotch . Clergy in the xear - • The hous e adjourned at a fiiiiria t earrain: SOUTHWARK REFORM MESTIYO. . . . Yerierday, a most nureetotas and respectable Meal:. ing or the Electors of Sonthiiirk took place at the% Town Hall, in the BoVongh. -- • The Hunt BAliiir said, that he Mid issued tiV pricePt, dilly appreciating the charactet-Of the Elsie- i tors, and he trusted that none but those Who Cid 4 right to vote would present thernselvei to trams . the Meeting. Mr. BLACK addressed the Meeting upon the sub ject of the present state of the Representa.ven, which; he said, required the most judicious and fundamental change. The distresses Of the People would be re lieves by the introduction Of a Reform, the very first effect of which would be a reduction of taxation.—, The agricultural interests would, together with all the other interests of the nation, derive immediate. and deep benefit from such a measure—a measure 1 which was now considered of paramount importance 1 by all the higlr characters whose integrity added 1 to the weight of rank and titles in the country. He moved a Petition for a Reform in Parliament, and' for a Reduction of Taiation. i Mr. BULLTEN seconded the motion. . Mr. ECUs did not approve of the Petition in many 1 respects; but, as he admitted the necessity of a Par- $ liamentary Reform, he should not propose any amend- T went. After some obseriations in favour of a plan 'of Reform, which was generally admitted to be im-. practicable, and which one of the crowd said would. f take 150 years to carry into effect, he discontinued f )his address. . Mr. A ItROthIMITII spoke strongly in favour of p l . II . „ , , I , . . , liamentary Reform. I t was true that the .agrietaini : 4 interests were suffering severely at ,present; bet 'ha ti it should be remembered that no portion of thi c 4 - 1 munity pro fi te d more by the late war than they It did—it should be remembereld; too, that the land holders had been the main iiipporteri of the pre-' Si. sent system ; for, with them, while high rtices Con-: a tinued, everything was thought tight—(Hear, hook ' The primary cause of the present distress mist, however, be traced to the Funding System. He tad ( often been surprised at hearing drank at Public Meet ings, " The principles which placed the . present ra: a mily on the Throne," without an exception being taken to that principle which established the Funding vs System. When the People applied for Reform, they I were told tbat they ought to reform themselieC n This was certainly gond advice, but he did not like I the quarter from which it came. What would dui think of a man who, while he was picking their r pockets, should go on preaching sound moral prix: 11 ciples to them? It was something. like the conduct. a of the three Holy Sovereigns at Verona, who were I most anxiously' praying for the welfare of Spain ! it a time when they were preparing to enslave liens' b (Hear, hear).--He did not agree entirelf withwit l: Petition which had been read.— 4r. l Arroiseitif • tig I 11 then read a Petition, differing a little from that or Mr. Black; but it war not seconded, and waeUltid mately withdrawn. 9 0 Tine original Petition was then put niuLcarried •i ,t e , Mr. CALVERT said, it was not the practice of l ath years for Members of the Borough to obtrude opii, coons on subjects discussed by the Electors. WlO first elected their Representative. he declared thai 11 lapresentatives should always obey their COnstitie • ents, and he had always dot* so; but at the saute v time his opinions had .always coincided with the' 2 and never more sincerely than at present. He could o not agree with Mr. Ellis, that effectual Reform coubt a be gained in the manner and time stated: the pert,* 4 who said it wouid take 150 years to act upon thei plan, might have said it would take 1500—Viol I laughter).—He could not hope that we were on Ote eve of Reform, when he looked at the present in t& ponderance of Boroughniongers, but still he would I not despair. Mr. Ellis had intimated that he wield move a distinct proposition for Refbrm. Should that Gentleman do so, he (Mr. Calvert) would prese it, I provided it met with the approbation of the 1004 Sir ROBERT WILSON said, he never receieet a summons to attend a Meeting of his Constittraits, : 1 without feeling the satisfactiOn that he would reeeitie instructions which would confer honour on his . cel. league and himself. On this occasion, as on eris 4 • other, they bad conic to a resolution that would app i port their high character as an enlightened •bollit! Electors. It must be most agreeable to their tip* sentatives' to support every measure calculate ct to lighten their burdens. The agricultural interests, of ••• 1 the nation could not be depressed without cautaplit sympathy amongst the other interests, wric,lr were• '‘ entitled to deep regard. All suffered at present from an or - ercharged /seal arrangement, but ii-.4a ductian wiitild be extremely imperfect witlititik,Als form, for all the distress arose from the 4.040. 01 that Reform to which the eyes of all wise and liberal men were now directed. The 4 R craters ibetlllifi a . ii their creed on the immutable in; aides of ; , laP i i. and required the practice of to and. jeSatittee'V It was no answer that great abuses existed in kelp times ; that Elizabeth exercised prerogative, and exercised privilege to return Members to Parlianntito Here there was no analogy. The difusiots of beg r• . ledge and wealth created a ,contrast, an the ? rat, the great promoter of the liberties of reap ad, t the people in a condition to demand the pritelfaioa luded to—taught their rights and duties to millientak. • was their mental eye—called ferdleatetb4c.„: . rues that would otherwise have lainAlseleu. rapt part of it had indeed been more .violent mama' • Spain, than the Press of Franie; but it,bad only' 'dered itself an object of contempt.and•abhortent.o9 everyperson . of reason and justiee. lie felt Rtlg • 4 in stating, and it was repOrted upbn.eitcellent a : rity, that the corrupt part of the Press 10 irbic it alluded, had received their dismissal from the Go. vernineht Offices; and could no longer giererrEllt 10 their cahunn;is ag ainst the cause of libeerrellail. , . supporters under the sanction of . Mirasters t f^. If the Houk of Commons were - reel : MO ? ..41* ,• .. tified with the People Ili interest. and 400-14.1* , • 'So many wrongs _ benefit unredressell-4-edbldvio boil wrougs be corturtittiOVilhlitil 411.61 t .oefor