Star. — London, England, 1822-05-14 00:00:00

t he motion he had brought fortiori, which had with the censure of the Hon. Member for Mid) Altlipligh that Hon. Member had said that he wish for a remissien of taxation to the extent m illions, he did not make a motion to that effect Mr. PHILLIPS thought, that if the Hon. MI for MiJhurst had been in the House At the tir !n o t ion of the Hon. Member for York was be would have voted for it himself. The Nember then proceeded to notice the reference bcen made by the lion. Member for Essex Western) to the price of foreign corn. Great ( once of opinion existed on this subject, as to the Tea quoting of the averages; but he had got rage , of long and short periods, by which it apj that the price of corn at Dantzic, upon an iv of many years. was 535. that of five years, 1796 to 1800, 535. Bd. and from 1816 to 1820 a little above 675. Thus they had the averages at ditlei cot periods and different terms of years, this he t hought ought to be sufficient to dissipate the alarm on the subject of high prices and tl s onings built upon it. He did not believe the I-assessed the power of relieving the present distress • , but, if tney were to attempt it, it would be evil in legislation. Hon. Gentlemen must not themselves with an idea that high prices were sistent with the interests of the agriculturist: the counti y. If they raised the price of the an tut al pi ounce of this country high whilst °Owls was low, they must seriously injure the interc,ts. The manufacturing interest was nod ye: ing tram the state in which the agricultur: —Year alter year they had been condemned their capital wasted, and even now their profit extremely low ; and it was only the low wf CI kmen that enabled them to go on, and tin enly be whilst th' rate of provisions was props ably low. Gentlemen must not judge of the commerce from the exports, as these were made upon speculation, and not in compliant cr,!cr, ; and even if these exports. met with a ket, the proceeds must be eligibly di of iv:ore the merchant could count upon hif lie wished to get rid of the whole - system of th as he looked upon them as only misleading di viers. Without the averages he thought a duty would he a very fair rate. lie believed th; weight of indirect and direct taxation upon futures was as peat, and greater than upon ture. He opposed all the Resolutions whi been proposed, tint those of the Wn. Memi l'ortarlington. He hoped, year after year, ht. press them upon the House; for he was far longer they went on under the existing syst( greater would be the evil. The more that Hot tien:an was known, the more he would be rest as one of the most original and wise writers subject of political economy. Mr. SYKES said he had not yet been able! up his mind to any of the Resolutions, nor . meats upon them, which had been proposed, there re had abstained from voting upon them. In his opinion, it was not from supera iiice of produce that the distress had been caused, but by the alteration of the currency. He considered that a reduction of taxation was the best ground upon which national credit could rest, and he agreed wiLit the Hon. Member for Callington (Mr. Attwood) that when corn was at a high price all other interests must suffer. He did not agree with those who stated agriculture to be exclusively in a bad state,. He thought the manufacturing interest was also suffering. Mr. RICARI)O, in explanation of allusions which had been made to his statement of the prices of fo-. reign corn, begged Hon. Gentlemen would bear in: niirsd that them were two authorities on that subject . Cut were quoted from generally, who differed much in their items. The calculations of Mr. Solly were _ trade in conformance with the variations in our pa , per carrency, and were, therefore, always higher than those of Mr. Gray, who made his calculation upon a fixed exchange. He had built his argument on the latter, and it would be found that whilst he quoted from one paper, Hon. Gentlemen quoted from ano ther, and thus the misunderstanding arose. He hoped, therefore, he should be acquitted of any in tention to mislead. Mr. ATTWOOD said, the Noble Lord had con tended that the present price ought not to be looked to on the present occasion, but that they ought to take the average of the last 20 or SO years. He pro ceeded to shew that the peculiar circumstances of the war had so effected the price of grain during that perio,!, that it ought to be excluded from their calcu litioas, as nothing could be more erroneous than to tike such a ground for legislation. The Honourable Meu.ber for Portarlington had fallen into an error, the correction of which by the Hon. Member for Essex had been received with very little complacency, and a lecture on the principles of political economy had hallowed ; but in the paper produced by the Hon. Member for Portarlington, 21-6 ought to be read 14, and 26 ought to be read 16, and this error ran all through the paper. Another error into which he had fallen was this—France had been completely over looked, as if she were not a great corn-growing country. He then took a comprehensive view of the s tuation in which France stood as a corn-glowing country, and shewed that its price there had not va ried as in England, nor had it greatly varied else v-bere but in consequence of the influence of the English system on other markets. Its price had not changed, as had that of gold, during the period al luded to. lie traced the existing distress to the Bank Restriction Act. But what was the object of the pre sent Bill ? Why, it neglected everything that ought to be attended to, in order, as had been, in fact, ad mitted by a Bight Hon. Gentleman, to scramble a little more into the Exchequer than would otherwise be obtained. If the Right Hon. Gentleman looked to the annals of his office, he would find that tumult and disorders had grown out of the prevailing dis tress. If Parliament persevered in their present disas trous course, adhering to the restored standard of ♦alue, it was difficult to calculate what would be the consequences. He contended the law for resuming cash payments was at present in the midst of its ope ration. Every day, every hour produced new proofs of the ruinous consequences resulting from that ini quitn;.s measure—(Hear, hear} --which was rapidly extending from one end of the country to the other. He pressed on the attention of the house the melan choly situation of one parish which had been brought under their consideration last week, where, in conse quence of die arrangement made with respect to had done good already. The time at which that motion had been brought forward was such, that the proposition was calculated to give a great blow to public credit, and the Hon. Member for Midhurst had his best thanks for the speech he had made to correct the evil. Mr. HUME, for one, disclaimed having voted for the motion which had been alluded to, on the prin ciples supposed by the Noble Marquis. He was con fident that the Hon. Member for Midhurst had spoken on a misconception of what had taken place. He had believed that those who voted for the motion alluded to, had voted for that which would break faith with the public creditor, and produce in this country 'scenes like those which marked the French Revolu tion. But he was convinced that those who voted for the lemission of taxation, were those who took the best beans of averting such a catastrophe. He maintained, in opposition to the Ncble Marquis, that salaries and pensions were now much higher than in 1792, and of this he adduced several instances. The Resolutions of his Hon. Friend, the Member for Pot.- tarlington, were those which he should wish to see carried, and to those he thought the House must hereafter come; but those of the Noble Marquis, he was of opinion, would improve on the present law, and so far they had his support. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY explained. Mr. PEEL spoke as follows ;- 6 I did not expect that a debate like the present would arise on the question that the Report of the Committee should be brought up ; but as the Hon. Member for Callington (Mr. Attwood) has so particularly referred to me in the course of his speech, though I could wish to re serve what I have to say on the restoration of the currency till the Hon. Member for Essex brings for ward the motion of which he has given notice, I can not pass over what so particularly refers to me per sonally. And here I cannot but express my surprise at the applause which some points of the Hon. Gen tleman's speech called forth from that side of the House, and especially that where the Hon. Gentle man went the length of calling the Bill for returning to cash payments an iniquitous measur e. When remember the course of the debates on that measure; when I remember that a Gentleman on that side of the House (Mr. Horner) in 1810 brought forward, though a . political opponent I must say it, to his im mortal honour, Resolutions in favour of a return to cash payments; when 1 remember that it, 1811 the concluding Resolution proposed by Mr. Horner and adopted by the Bullion Committee, called on the Bank to resume cash payments at the end of two years from that time—(Hear, hear, hear) — and when I remember how that proposition was sup ported by the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, I cannot suf ficiently express my surprise at the applause given to that part of the Hon. Member's speech which de scribed the Act of 1819 as an iniquitous measure — (Hear, hear).—What was the course taken by those who sat on the opposite benches in 1816, when that subject was debated in this House ? An Act like that which has since then passed, was not spoken of as that which would deserve such a character. But if anything could surprise me more than the conduct of those Gentlemen collectively, it would be the ap plause given to the language I have alluded to by the Hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. Ellice). Let me tell that Hon. Gentleman, that in 1819 he moved Resolutions as an Amendment on those which I had submitted to the House. Mine went to oblige the Bank to resume cash payments in the year 1823 , poor , " 1)o you consider tea as a necessary of life?—Yes. " Do you consider spirit, as a necessary of life ?—I consider spirits as a luxury." —But in point of fact, the witness considered that with respect to all these articles the general consump tion had greatly diminished, and the name of this wit ness w as Thomas Attwood, Esq.—(Loud cheers and laughter). The name of this withers was Thomas Attwood, Esq.—(A laugh). The object of my speech was, as I have said, to shew that no such reduction in consumption had taken place, and if the Revenue continued to increase under circumstances like those which I have described, I had a right to infer that the manufacturing classes were better off than formerly, and 1 wished to shew that their situation had not been' deteriorated. The Hon. Gentleman has asked Me if 1 did not find in my office records of tumult and in subordination growing out of the prevailing distress? . I do not know to what period he alludes. It he means` to ask whether I do not now find that tumults and' insubordination prevail ? my answer is, that I do not. I suppose the Hon. Gentleman alludes to the dis turbances in Monmouthshire and Staffordshire— (" No," from Mr. ATTWOOD). But only in those places have disorders occurred. Mr. Arrwonn had not alluded to Staffordshire. Mr. Prat.—" Not to Staffordshire!—But the disorders oc curred there." Mr. Arrwoon said he had referred to the tumults which oc-, curred in Lancashire from want of work. Mr. PEEL continued.—" Such disorders as lately happened cannot now occur from scarcity of labour, for I happen to have in my Office an offer from the masters in Staffordshire, proposing to give three shil lings per day, two pints of beer, and fuel for their families, to those who chbose to accept of employ ment—CHere it was remarked, that the masters only proposed to employ the men four days in each week j. I shall leave the rest to my Hon. Friend near me, who, at my request, left his Parliamentary duty to go down to the spot, in order to ascertain how mat, ters really stood. But the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Att wood) does not speak of what lately occurred, but refers to wirat took place at a former period, when his beautifyil paper standard was in existence. Here, then, is a iontradiction in terms. In 1816 and 1817 disorders and tumults occurred; but it. was not till 1819 that I brought in the Bill for restoring a me tallic currency. In those years (1816 and 1817), I certainly find that disorders prevailed; and I also find them described by a Committee of this House, not as originating in disloyalty, but as growing up among the lower orders of manufacturers, who std . - fered 6 from the low rate of wages, and the in creased price of the necessaries of life'—(Hear).— The Hon. Gentleman will tell me, 6 01 but then a great revulsion had taken place, the country Banks had diminished their issues, and thus produced gene ral distress.' To be sure they had, and this was the evil to be apprehended from a paper circulation. While abundant issues of paper took place we could go on very well, but the evil is felt when this is called , m, and we have to pay for the paper which has been circulated. It was those issues which led to the dis tress which is now the subject of complaint. Men go on very pleasantly while getting drunk, and while . breathing oxygen, but then they must take the un pleasant consequences attendant on returning to a state of sobriety, and on again accustoming them selves to breathe the atmospheric air. Mr. Hume has well described the effects of a paper currency— (A laugh). I doubt not the Hon. Gentleman opposite concurs with his namesake in what he has said ou, adopt some measu! _ gro \ - evil. He espoused the interest of all persons, and in that view he could not conceive the measure calculated to do good. The measures before the House had no consistency; they would not afford any particular good to the landed interest. His opinion was, that other Legislators would be as anxious to repeal them, as they were now to pass them. The measure would be of little use to the grower, yet, under all the cir cumstances; he should not hue:fele with the progress of the Bill. Mr. WILSON could not see how the Hon. Mem ber for Callington had discovered that the deprecia tion of the currency WAS thirty per cent. There was no ground upon which that proposition could be made out. He suppos ted the motion. Sir ROBERT WILSON said, the interest of the manufacturer and consumer, as well as the landed interest, ought to be supported ; but when that topic was fairly argued, the Noble Lord said the argument was revolutionary. That, however, had been said by the Noble Lord on almost every public question. Mr. LYTTLETON rose to explain some allusion made to the disturbance among the colliers in Staf fordshire. There was a determination among the men not to take provision instead of money for wages. The Right Hon. Gentleman was right in saying the masters had offered them three shillings a day, two pints of beer, and fuel. The men had since consented to return to work on those terms. Mr. DENISON supported the proposition of the Member for Coventry. Mr. BROUGHAM would not follow the example of an Hon. Friend. He should no; exculpate himself. In Goo's name why should he? He considered him self, not only at liberty to vote for the Noble Lord's propositions but bound by consistency to give his consent to the motion ; for, at the commencement pf the last Session, he put upon the Journals of the House a similar motion.—The House then divided : For bringing up the Report Against it - - - Majority - On readmission to the Gallery, the House was in Commit tee, and Mr. Husrassou on his legs, stating the principles upon which he established his Resolutions. The country had grown corn to excess, and too expensively. The loss consequently was great to the growers. That circumstance he considered the cause of the present embarrassment. To this moment there had been a loss in agricultural capital, which would at last affect the capital of manufactures. They placed them selves with price and averages in the situation of glut and scarcity. The cultivator of the soil was placed in a situation in which he could not foresee the injuries he might sustain. An the course of a few years the country would see the necessity of keeping the trade in foreign corn free. He wished to put his Resolutions upon the Journals, for the purpose of pointing out what be considered necessary to stop the fluctuation of price. De admitted, in the present state of agricultural alarm, that it was with difficulty his Noble Friend had made one step toward! improvement. The Right lion. Member concluded by propos ing his Resolutions, which were negatived by the Marquis of Lontentoesate. T he. Noble Marquis did not deny the principis they professed, but he did not then see how they could apply. Mr. RICARDO said, the practical principle of his ROC Hon. Friend warat variance with his argument, and as he did notconsider the Right Hon. Gelitlentan's Resolutions were do. serving of more public notice than his own he should mime to insert them ow the Journals. The Hon. Member aceeedingly proposed his Resolutions, which were negatived. The Resolutions of the Committee were then agreed to, t b e House resumed, and the Report was received. 155 22 -151 rug & RICE loolotioa of Ms with to tho 'jam aI4M advised the 'Crows . . . . , . . . . - . . . • . , . - . . .• • - . • - , ' ad Imet -6thalr " dai stua l h ar etl l . l" "PIM bi l ke ialita till& ' his . I /kola EitaitirellDdmlintrAWaSte itrallsii,46 tel 7i. 'ire' idhurst. that the l w as' ilitored, the a u lt i t atida -4/f the t ilifa h e Yi ß esahit t oa 4l _ )" rili g i le •was re f e d o lll444lc 4,l ll4 ' er id r e issues -116 a pafin. l"; 614ali w.but h i ' sit i P l ait: I ti ti t t" he r c li4 ordieetnen *Sin ees W e could soil had been enmity abandoned. The few to Sehich • t of 20 he adverted bad taken from the landed I n te r irst all . others to etplitil.fi. —. The ikonou'' rable4entlelial• follow, and shews that to such a carne it is aim& But s la t sin taqi natiou ,tko ra th bis e.p G ri e n n c t i i p e l at es ans of vic a o m nom so y a la n i f d on d u o na Wn te b tha v the rect. protection, and be would ask if the t o u ntri ought to tells me, the thirkettilittois or *Vet I hiiiispektt 'ltlitfelitneeesser' y thin a stop should be put.. With re-' . Member endure that salaries and pensions should remain, now , was preceded h a veherst. sal tbi lt iliere i.erti mai let . . ime the the currency was restored, at that rate to which they now stand np. made, had been raised,while we bad a paper circulation?— those Resolutions that Want - 6:l4lrect 4 di* 0111"11 ; ilithur h 2s p o t ' in print . dI his fitdsPeetwhaht speeches, s te hoe pu let blis w h h i t fn 4 R e . e Hon. Under these circumstance s he called on the House to question as to th e p ropr iety of kretuen,to cash e which pause. The c h ange i n t h e currency h a d, i n e ff ec t, payments o n t h e part o f the Bant?— - (11, hear.) of contradictions , as 'compared with his evidence .i ex (Mr. raised salaries an d pensions from 50 to 50 per cent. But the Hon. Gentleman says he whistisfaid to the (Here it was remarked that the Honourable Mem. t differ- When that was considered, it must be seen that the Noble Lord (the Menther for Salisbury), as they were btu for . Callington was not the Mr. Attwood who bad the cor- course pu rsu ed b y t h e G overnment , i nstea d o f up- going out of the Honso„ that it was to the'standard given evidence before the Committee of that House:) , what he might say of ave- holding the credit of the country, inflicted on it one of 5 1 . 10s. that he wished to return. I know not I beg the Hon. Member's pardon for the mi s take, but some of the statements of the witness were so like to that Noble Lord .when be was ppeared of the foulest blots which it had ever sustained. average The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was surprised , leaving the House; bat this I know' that the Reso. what he has advanced, that I took them for his, and . . s, from that the House should be called upon to pause, and in ' lotions he sub m i tte d to the Howie called for a re- could almost persuade myself that the witness learned 9it was fact to decline receiving this Report till the scheme sumption of cash payments from May_l, 1822 ; and them from hearing him repeat them. Others, hover. , 1 es taken of the Hon. Member could be realised. When he whatever. the Hon. Gentleman whi s pered to that ever; are at variance with what we have heard frgrrs ars, and said that all salaries and pensions should come down, Noble Lord, I have a right to oppose those Resolu- him. Thus the witness, in answer to a question 'Per 1 i pate all he could only recognize one of those attempts which tions--(Hear, hear).--I have now'to offer a few to hirn,in the committee, asserts— , Nothing can de: ' M the rea- were so common on the opposite side of the House to words in reply to what has fallen from the Hon. termine the price of an article but the state of supply . e House excite the passions where it would be much better to Member for Callington. He has bestowed a portion and demand. The Hon. Member maintains a doc. • distress; establish convictions—(Hear, hear). The pensions of his sarcasm on me; but as I share that sarcasm trine directly the reverse. When the Hon.Gentlemaik a great and salaries, it was well known to the House, had, with my Hon. Friend, if he will allow the esteem and speaks of corn as furnishing a less variable standard , ~ t delude with some exceptions, been generally reduced. 1 hose respect I feel for him in place of that intimacy which than gold, I must refer him to the fluctuations in the ,' . 1 I ere con- who held office had suffered from the depreciation of generally gives the claim to friendship, to call him price of corn which took place between 1700 and • 1 ;s or of paper, and had not gained by the reformation of the so, the Member for Portarlington; as he, I say, 1783, when the. changes were so great, while there agricul- currency. He therefore called upon the House not shares the sarcasm of the Hon. Gentleman with me, was so little variation in the price of gold, that could I; ; that of to be led away by the declamatory sophisms of the lam well contented to bear it. He (Mr. Attwood) the HoO. Gentleman prevail on the House to adopt re other Hon. Gentleman. He replied at some length to the has alluded to what I said the other night as to that corn as a standard, he would find that infinitely more 4 i , , nv reco- remarks of the Hon. Member for Essex. To exclude which might bring a full Exchequer. And what liable to alteration in its value than gold, or than i ' • ,rat was. corn from being imported altogether was not the oh- did I say on that subject? I remarked, that if the even his beloved paper. Let me refer him to one 1 . 1 to see ject of the present Bill, but to regulate its admission currency of the country had raised (as had been document (the only one I have with me, not expect- i fits were into the market, and effectually to guard against the asserted) the taxation of the country 40 per cent, it' ing this subject would come before the House) chew= ! .1." ..ages of country being inundated with foreign corn for the did appear to me a very extraordinary circumstance, ing what have been the prices of corn since 1812 . il -'' cis could time to come. This was accomplished by the duty of and consolatory at the same time, that the same In the year 1815 wheat was 64 5. the quarter, gold 1 4 4.t portion- 17s- per quarter now to be imposed, which, added to taxes which had been previously borne could con - being at that time 51. Gs. per ounce. But what was •1' - state of 10s. at least for commercial profit, would always make tinue to be paid ; and one of two things resulted from the consequence of the paper being diminished in 1817? I'o , mostly it come here, when it could be imported, with a this fact—the finances of the country must be in a; Why then, when paper was nearly at par, the price nee with burden of 275. on it. He denied that faith was broken most saisfactory condition, or the currency could of the quarter of wheat was 04. Notwithstanding . i . favour- with the farmer, as the Hon. Member for Essex had not have increased their pressure in the ratio sup-' an alteration of the currency to the amount of 14 or i 1 4 , disposed contended, by altering the importation price from posed. But did I say that I was glad taxes to such 15 _ per cent. the price of wheat was increased from 1 . is gains. 80s. to 70s. as the latter price was, in the present an amount were wrung from the country? No; but 645. to 91s. Is not this ‘ufficient to prove (patting t• .verages, state of the currency, a greater protection than the I was glad that without more legal processes than the state of the currency out of the question) that the far- former was at the time of its being granted— (Hear). usual ; that without extraordinary measures being nothing is so variable as the price of coin ? Of all d' ' yof 20s. He therefore considered that there was no ground resorted to in the collection of the revenue such was commodities, as Mr. Tooke has observed, in his es i. I; that the for the alarm which that Hon. Gentleman had felt. the state of the case, because this alone proved that dence, - corn is that which is most liable to change of 44 ,. 1 manu- The present moment he conceived the fittest that the great mass of the people were in a flourishing price. lam sorry to have anticipated so much of 1 agricul- could have been selected for legislation on such a condition — (Hear, hear). — lt was my wish to refute the discussion shortl y to come on, but the Hon. Mem. , iich had subject. He hoped enough had been said to justify some of the assertions made before the Agricultural berreferred so directly to me in the courseofhisspeech, , i utter for the bringing up of the Report. He begged to ex- Committee, which went to represent all consumption that I was unwillin g to let it p ass without takin g this , '; re would press his thanks to the Honourable Member for Mid- to have been greatly diminished. The .questions put imperfect notice of what he had advanced:' . 4 4 sure the hurst, for the moral and political lecture which he to one of the witnesses, and the answers, tan thus : Mr. ELLICE said, all the evils of the country had terry, the had read to those on the other side cf the House who' .. Do you know that a great diminution of consumption of been occasioned by deprecia:ion of the currency. The • ' on. Gen- had favoured a late motion. It must have been to the necessar i es . of life h as occurre d genera ll y,. t h oug h . not In th e od injury was just beginning ; the effect was not felt to 1 espected, him a painful duty, but he had performed it in a man- where P proport i on t ietionq enquiries i s es a t have Bi rmingham principally and beeni in lt s d i n r e ec tg t b e b d o 7 tr o , , . same i the full extent. He considered, with the Member : on the ner the most meritorious. The motion, supported h a ve n o doubt that a great diminution of consumption of the for Callington, that the country had not arrived at ' I :, by arguments, in favour of remitting £20,000,000 necessaries of life has occurred generally throughout the United the knowledge of all the consequences. If they went Ito make in taxes, involving national bankruptcy, which had Kingdom :' . on as they had been going some ) ens. there wouldii. 1 , Du you consider salt as a necessary of life ?—Certainly. be a confiscation of the property of the country to the .. Amend- been voted for by thirty-seven Members, was most .. Do you consider soap as a necessary of life?—Certainly. 1 1 i I, and he injurious. The speech of the Honourable Member oDo you consider mak as a necessary of life ?—Yes. monied interest. H e s hould o pp ose an y at t em pt to ,14! a any of for Midhurst had produced several explanatory state- "Do you consider candles as a necessary of life?—Yes. sacrifice the interest of the public creditor to any in- I" "Do you consider sugar as a necessary of life ?—I do not ; but terest of a partial description. It was necessary to erabund- meats from other Hon. Members, and in their way , ; r; - 1 .. 1-_-... -.......i —I .......1.. Th.. t:erts .., .4% irh thnt the poor people do. .. adopt some measure to prevent the growth of the evil. ' .1 ..... --- - - X POSTMASTER IN IRELAND. . :asked the Noble Marquis windier it was dm , Majesty's Government to adopt any restantiort be postmaster of Ireland? . 1 of LONDONDERRY said, whoa GovigiOnses wit to take measures WM 11,40 IS tin rot