Star. — London, England, 1831-04-19 00:00:00

17' ■ 7"'` ,11 "`F.'7, 1 "1"`"7" .",!;--- W ton would be immediately girt up to the house in favour of the ma tore. A meeting, for the purpo.e of agreeing upon the terms of the pe titi )n. and of signing it, had boon called. One of the placards calling it he held in his hand, and it stated that the object was, among other things, 4 ` to celebrate the triumph of the glorious cause in the hands of our beloved Sovereign and his enlightened Alinisters."— (Loud cheers.) Mr. HUNT said that in the first place. as to what had fallen bran the honourable member for Middlesex, he should perhaps in rnessure confirm his statement. In regard to what had f din from the honourable member respecting Darleton, he had fit ray that he had been at a meeting that took place there. He W. 1.1 at Birmingham on his way to Preston, and at Birmingham wit. invited to attend a meeting in Warwickshire. In reply he eaitl he had no property there, and he should not go. but would ;end the day in Birmingham. Two members of the Birmingham Union (nne a Mr. Western, a most respectable man) waited on him, red invited him to attend a meeting at Derision, saying, if he would go, he should have a seat there and back in their carriage, and this a es the way in which he had got among the honourable member's con stituents opposite. In consequence, he ( Mr. H.) believed of his being I resent on that occasion, instead of there being 50 to dine when diuncr lied been prepared, there were nearly 300. He wart invited to address the persons assembled. and the discussion arose upon the present measure of reform. Ile certainly did put two or three questions to them. They were mostly working men, and not of the class which he should call 101. householders. In answer to what was elated in the house the other day, with respect to putting leading questions, he admitted that he had put leading questions; and he would appeal to any honourable and amed member in that house whether, in a court of justice, leading questions were not permitted for the purpose of eliciting Outh, and the whole truth. (Hear, hear.) He asked those present whether they would be likely to come within the class of those who would have a vote in the representation? A great portion of them said they were not. Ile then *eked them whether they would choose to delegate to the 101. inhabitants ouch as were proposed by the bill their right to vote, and their answer in the room was—certainly not. After dinner he was invited to go to a multitude, no doubt partly to bear the leaders of the Birmingham Union, and partly that he might be heard himself. He was told that he then addressed 10,000 people, and to whom be re peated his questions, and from whom he got similar answers. The honourable members for Staffordshire and Middlesex stated that meet ings bad been held all over the country, and that the people were una nimous for the measure. He (Mr. H.) had stated the same thing, and that the people were running mad for it The honourable member for Boroughbritlge had called it " Russell's Purge Bill." (Hear.) It might bz entitled to that epithet from those who were to be scoured out of Parliament by its operations, but lie should apply some other term to it. It was a Bill to disfranchise 60 boroughs, and to knock off 120 members. Now, it seemed the noble lord had put them altogether into an oven': be had pounded them, and blinded the eyes of the people of England with the powder in the shape of "love's powder, or bre. roughnionger's powdtr." People had begun now to see the e ffect of it. They were recovering from their blindness. The house heel been lustily told that all people approved of the measure. Why, so they did ap prove of it—they npprovcd of it as fur as it wet:, but many, and particularly those in Lancaeltiee, did not epprove of it in consequence of its not going far enough. He (Mr. H.) Itlr his own part, &p -roved of the kr.oeking.off system—he approved of the measure, and he should give it his support. At the sane_ time he had always contended for the right of the whole people, and this was certainly not a measure calculated to give to the whole the Ti' c jit of voting. Ile had stated on a former night what he tepeated now, that when the Bill was in the Committee he bh )tild move, that those who were exempted from the right of voting, should be excused from paying taxes and serving in the militia (hear). He had stated this, too, to the persons at the meetings he had attended, and asked them if they expected any thing from the measure? They then stated that they expected nothine whatever. The hon. member for Middlesex bad stated, that at the dinners he (Mr. Hunt) had attended, certain toasts had been drunk.— Now that lion, member must have been entirely mistaken, because he ' had dined welt no one ! He knew what the hon. member meant, it was this, that he ( Mr. blunt) had been invited to nn evening party — (laughter)—at which there was nothing to ea t-e(repeeoed laughter)—at ail, and at the meeting the health of his Majesty's ministers was drunk. (Much laughter.) As to the feelings of the electors of Preston, he had a petition from them, in %bleb they all ceee urred in his representations. He also had letters to show that Scotland was not very uuanimuusly in favour of the bill. A letter from Paisley said, that not one in ten and a half householders would have votes. Would that satisfy the people ? No. He rejoiced that the bon. member for 31 (Mews had spoken out for universal suffrage; btu unfortunately he was not now so useful as a ministerial member (a laugh) as he was an oppositionist. His (51r. Hunt's) speech on a former occasion seemed to have delighted the oppo.. sition, they had even had it extensively printed ; but since ha: period his (Mr. Hunt's) health was not drunk in the way it had been (a laugh), and he was denounced by the press, which, in face, was in.' conspiracy for this bill. (Cheers.) Not unfair conspiracy ;—but such was the popularity of the measure, that had not they supported the bill, they could not have sold their papers (cheers.) As to buying him, the Tories had nothing to give; and but one price only would buy hitn, that of giving the people the protection of the ballot (hear). When he had spoken of the people, he meant those who wet e not to be represented even b this bill ; and he must again declare that they were not satisfied with the bill. When others spoke of the people, they meant those who were to be represented by this bill ; they only were the people in the estimation to the press and that house. In confirmation of his opinion, he said, at Leeds and elsewhere, it had been declared that "Mr. Hunt had done justice to the working classes." He did not complain of the press for their attacks upon him, and this was not the first time that he had been attacked by the whole Fees of England. He repeated, he denied that, with the exception cf the metropolis, this bill was popu. lar ; it was not, with such exception, and with exception of the press (cries of question, and confhtion.) He hoped he should always be allowed to defen d ; if not, he should make his bow, retire, and resign his trust to Preston, and snap his fingers at the house—(cheers, and laughter.) Mr. Alder man IV A ITH MAN read the resolution of the sil k-weavers of Spiraltields di flying that Mr. Hunt had truly represented their feel. I ings. They were not 101. householders, hut operative journeymen weavers. H. bad put thc question to them about cheap bread and clothes ; still they were in favour of the bill. The hon. member for Pteston was charged with being the greatest enemy of reform ; but, (and no thanks to him) he was one of its best friends : for such opposi thin had done more than any thing else to open the eyes of the people. Sonic said the measure w.ts too sweeping—others declared that it did not go far enough ; that hi his opinion showed that the ministers had hit on the just medium. The country was satisfied with the bill, and I the reople were justly indignant at having been stated to be dissatis. tied with it. From Spitalfields he had a petition, signed by 3,500 per. I sons, and they had authorised hint to make the statement he now had made. Lord STANLEY asked the Member for Preston whether he had used the language attributed to him in a country paper regarding the elections at Wigan, squeezing the electors to vote for popular candi dates, thus exercising a little " Constitutional influence" over them P ( Hear, hear.) It had been partially hut not wholly denied by the hon. member ; and was that language that ought to be used ? (Hear.) And what had that bon. member said in the country about laying Manches ter in ashes or spilling its blood rather titan return particular persons ? Was not such language most reprehensible ? He would not ask whe ther the particular language was used ; but if he had said any thing like it, he had disgraced himself. (Cheers.) Mr. HUNT replied, that thc reports the Noble Lord had quoted were grossly exaggerated. lie had advised the voters to be led, and to have their arms squeezed a little, if they were slow to go to Wigan to vote for popular candidates, by way of exeicising constitutional influence; but he had said nothing about pulling their arms off: (much laughter.) He denied that he had ever cut any imputations on his hon. colleague: (question.) Mr. P. THOMPSON moved for a new writ for Bramber, in the room of V. Stuart, Esq. who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. —Ordered. ~~ a TUE REFORM BILL: Lord RUSSELL rose to move the order of the day on the Re form 1311 for England. Mr. DUNCOMBE rose to present a petition, but there was hn. wens° contusion to resist the presentation of further petitions. The SPEAKER said lie had called on hold J. Russell to move the order of the day, and therefore the Hon. Member was out of order, except the House chose to give special permission to meet an urgent or peculiar case. Mr. DUNCOMBE again rose, but the house would not hear him; every time be attempted there were renewed interruptions; so that eventually the Hon. Member resumed his seat. Lord JOHN RUSSELL again rose. He said at that advanced hour of the evening he must press his motion, other wise he should gladly have given way to the hen. member. He considered that it was incumbent on him to proceed with the motion. He doubted not that the house were quite rraely to hear the proposition, and to give him the opportunity of making those explanations of the alterations in the bill, of which he had before given notice. As the announcement of his bill had led to some observations and misrepresentations, he trusted he should be indulged with some preliminary remarks; and hemust premise,that in the alterations which he was now about to state were made in the bill,the ministers,instead of thinking that they abandoned the principle of the bill, considered that they more decidedly and fully carried into effect the principle of the bill. Bur, (continued the noble Lord, earnestly addressing the Speaker and the House) before I enter on this matter, I cannot help contrasting the situation in which I stand now, with that In which I stood when I brought forward the measure upon the Ist of March. Whatever anxiety I may feel now, it is an anxiety mixed with feelings of pride and satis faction that the measure which the Ministers of the King thought it their duty to propose, as one which they considered the best calculated for the promotion of the future welfare of England, has been stamped 711 7. . imi sealed by the approbation of that people for whose benefit and ad. liatioge ft was solely intended. (Loud cheering.) This very right, since I have been in the House, I have beard the hon. member for Prestos, who is no very partial friend of this bill, alledge that it has been impose. Ale for the press of England not to stand forward as the feat less advocate tit the measure, for if they were not to take such part It would be impos sible for them to find reader?. (Hear.) Another sign, and a gratifying one, of the opinions of the people, is the number of addresses and pods dons which have flown from all parts of this united empire, both to the throne and to this house. I have looked a good deal into these petition; but as I may have overlooked some, I will not venture to State the numbers presented on one side or on the other. But one thing strikes me as true, and can, I imagine, be proved 11106 t satisfactorily on exami nation, namely, that from the Corporations a hoar rights it was said we were about to rob—that from the boroughs we were 'About to spoliate, the petitions in favour of this measure have been more numerous than the petitions on the other side. I will not mention all the petitions. I may mention, however, the petitions of corporations, a noble ca talogue—at the head of which stands the corporation of London— then of Canterbury—then that of Portsmouth—of Gloucester—of Lircoln.—of Deity—and of Bedford. (Hear) This is one gratifying sign, as they feel that, however the privileges which they enjoy ate held by law, and cannot be taken from them except by Act of Parliament, yet that they would not be acting with that degree of consideration fax the interests of their country, which became them, if they were not to profess their readiness to give their willing assent to a measure which, if it did deprive them of power, tended to give their fellow-citizens psi. vileges, which ought long ago to have been diffused more generally, instead of being confined to those very select and small bodies.—(Hear ) But with regard to the feeling, and approbation, and sentiment., of the people of England, I have another test, which I borrow from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, (Sir R. Peel,) who, as he is in the habit of frequently quoting past speeches, cannot surely find fault with me, if, on this occasion, I adopt the same course. (Hear.) In bringing forward the Roman Catholic question, and in defending himself against the charge that bad been made against th a t honourable member, because he had not kept up his resistance to the Catholic claims with sufficient pertinacity, he declared that he had asked a friend of his to look into the votes of past years, with respect to the opi nions of their constituents upon the Catholic question. He said he had taken fifteen counties and twenty towns, in fact, he had taken seven. teen counties and twenty-two towns, but that difference alters not the principle upon which he proceeded, as a test of the opinions of the people of England. In his speech, which had been published under his sanction and approbation, he had said that in considering there votes so given, he was furnished with " a practical and constitutional method of determining the sense of the people." Now I sin going to adopt that same " practical and constitutional method" to ascertain legitie mately the sense of the people in reference to this measure. I will go over the very counties and places which he mentioned on the Catholic Question, and I will refer to the votes which they gave in reference to that measure. Among the several members who had voted for the second reading of the Reform Bill, there were for Essex, one in favour of, one against; Hampshire, both against; Lincolnshire, one in favour of, one against; Warwickshire, two in favour of, &c.; making in all seventeen counties, in which 27 Members voted in favour of the second reading of this important measure, and only nine against it.— I come next to the towns which the right hon. baronet took as a sample of the country's feelings on the Catholic Bill. London, tlnee for and one against ; Westminster, all in favour of ; Southwark, one for and one against; Liverpool, one for and one against ; Leicester, divided; Exeter, two in favour of; Coventry, two in favour of; York, two in favour of; Great Yarmouth, two in favour of . making in the whole thirty-nine members from those great towns who voted in favour ofs and only six against the Reform Bill (hear, hear.) Upon the whole eighty-one member., to whom the right hon. batonet opposite, with somewhat of a reforming eye, looking to them practically and accu rately to determine the sense of the people on this great question. Of these eighty-one members, sixty.aix voted in favour of the measure, and only fifteen against it. I take up these very places referred to by the tight hon. baronet, and from the feelings I have seen displayed in them I cannot but cowider diet these are signal proofs that the voice of the country is decidedly, not in favour merely of reform. not inertly its favour of the vague word Reform, which all gentlemen, i, app:ars, are now in favour of (Hear), so long es they arc not called upon to determine in what sense they undeestend it. (A laugh.) Bur it is a signal proof that the people arc in favour of a thorough Retorm ; in short, that they are in favour of this bill ; that they Oda the nomination of seats ought to be put an end to, and the franchise extended to large, commercial, and manufacturing towns, which at the present time arc wholly unrepresented. ( Hear , hear.) I derive (continued the noble lord) my information not merely from this, but I infer it likewise from the division which now appears ammv those who represent the various boroughs, which it is the object of this bill to deprive of their members. (Hear.) It is no wonder they should say, we will not vote for thin bill ; it deprives us of the rights which we at present enjoy; but when we find that persons whose in terests are against the question, having no external force applied to them, are exceedingly divided, and that perhaps one-third of them are in favour of relinquishing the power and privilege which they enjoy, from a sense that such power and privilege ought not to continue, I say it is a very strong proof of what the opinion of the people is, and the impreo sion that is made on men of cultivated understandings by the arguments and reasons which have been adduced to their minds during the course of the past years on the great question of Reform. I shall now refer to the manner in which this bill has been considered by his Majesty's ministers during the recess, and io doing so, I lipid myself obliged, from the misunderstanding that has prevailed, to refer to the way in I which the measure was originally brought forward. It was difficult properly to estimate a standard on which we should pmcced with rehe. ence to persons who should have the right to vote. There were various Imans by which this might have been aecertal led, pointed out. It win said that those paying the smallest taxes were those rated at 101. bats looking at the case in that view, it was found that those taxes were extremely irregular, and that in many places they took them at the va. lite of the houses nted. Therefore, if we had taken that test, we should have taken a test liable to error, if we had taken the test of the 101. householders. It was also said we might take an examination into the boroughs, their limits, end so on • but that enquiry would have led to great doubts and difficulties. T here would have been great partialities shown by the persons sent out to make the enquiry, and we should have got such a mass of details as would have rendered it impossible for us to bring forward any effective measure fur • year or more, and yet after all we should not have arrived at a proper criterion of the places which ought to be disfranchised. If we bad confined our. selves to the limits of a particular borough, we should not have doee justice for in Bridgewater, for instance, it is stated that the parish is divided into three parts, its jurisdiction extending over the I whole, but there is only one part that sends members to pasha ment. It was thought, therefore, better at once to take that well-known I parliamentary document, the population register, which certainly was not drawn up with a view to favour any interest, with a view to befriend any party, but was made out for the purpose of ascertaining the 'virus Ration of the country. (Hear, hear.) We obtained, therefore, the returns as they were drawn up in the o ffi ce of the Secretary of State fur the Home Department. lf, in doing this, we were taking not i only what seems to me to be a fair line, but we were taking the only practical line that oould be adopted, because with regard to I many of those boroughs, the only statement to be found in the book of the return of population is the borough and parish; and when, by our desire, letters were written, by the Secretary of State, to the Returning Officers for their returns, the answer of many of them t was, that it was impossible to know what the population was in 1021. Therefore, if we had taken those letters as our guide in framing, this manure, we should have taken that line which would not only not have been fair, but a line from which it would have been absolutely imputed cable at least from any known or precise data, to have distinguished the boroughs in all cases from parishes. For instance, with respect to the first borough, Amersham, the return made of it was, that the houses of the in habitants covered the whole parish.Well,then in speaking of Caine (which I shall have occasion to advert to shortly) a right hon. gent. accused us the other night improperly, by saying that this was • corrected return. He ought himself, undoubtedly, to have taken good care to have been correct before he had made that statement. So far from this being • corrected return, it is, in reality, only a return in part from the letters sent to the Secretary of State's office by the returning officers in the course of last week, and which was laid before the house as collateral to going into a Committee. Wherever there is a borough to which there is a parish attached, we have endeavoured to do that which I think is most equitable. With respect to the borough of Aldborough, Yorkshire, it is stated that the borough and township contain 735 inhabitants; but on examining the memorials that have been sent to the Secretary of State's office, it appears that it and Boroughbridge and several other places, make altogether 2,000 inhabitants (hear, hear, from Sir C. Wetherell). What they proposed was, that Buckingham, alalmesbury, Oakhampton, and Reigate ' should be removed from sc h e d u l e A . to schedule B ; and that with respect to schedule B, that Leominster, Northallerton, Morpeth, Tam worth, Truro, Westbury, and Chi pp i ng- Wycombe, sh ould be removed from it and permitted to return members as the other boroughs. There must be a line of some sort drawn; and the line we have taken is, as In some instances, that a house may be placed in such a situation that a portion of it may be on a and a portion of it not within the liberties, to ascertain where it said with any fairness, that the townships or parishes are d upon the boroughs,or belonging to the boroughs or chief places=t they ought to be considered as part of the boroughs, and taken in gmes of the population ; but we have determined not to give the parishes the right of being included in the borough populations which are at a ales tans fioin and have no connection with the boroughs. With tespalt to Beeralston, which was alluded to the other night, we do net think it falls within the exemption, and that it ought to undergo the sentence of disfranchisement. (Hear, hear.) A right honour. able gentleman had compared this to the case of the borough of Caine ; but I imagine it will not be a presumption to say that there is not the most remote resemblance between the two.—The borough of Caine, as °as of those plasm (of which there are many) in which the -..-- - , AP V I 1 1 :~~ ~,~ r parish and borough are close together, and in which it happens the parish is chiefly formed of the town, the borough itself being very small. There are other eases of a similar kind, such as Chichnta, Newport, and so on. It is very easy upon a matter of this sort to form a charge of partiality ; but I think if any one will refer to the book of popula tion returns, and to that which has been entered " a corrected return," I am satisfied they will perceive there has been no partiality what ever. It would be very easy if I could think that any Members of this House would be reconciled to this measure by taking the bo. rough of Caine or Tavistock, or any such one, and adding it to the disfranchised boroughs—it would be very easy to do it, and I am sure nothing could give me greater pleasure than to think that we had got five votes by occasioning the interests of any persons whatever con. nccted with those boroughs. (Cheers.) With regard to Caine, a great deal had been said that a reservation had been made for the interest of Lord Lansdowne; but he (Lord John Russell) could state that there were only two houses in the borough that paid 101. alear of rent that belonged to his lordship; and had the interest been transferred to the county of Wilts, his lordship's influence would have been much more likely to have been enlarged ; but, indeed, when the honour, integrity, arm transcendent talents of Lord Lansdowne were taken into account, no measure that this House could adopt would ever de prive his lordship of political influence. (Loud cries of "hear, hear.") The noble lord then proposed to give representatives to all towns con taining above ten thousand inhabitants. To Bury, Oldham, and Roch dale, they proposed to give one member each. To Salford, independ ently, Manchester sending two member's, they proposed to give one member. To Stoke-upon. Trent, and parishes adjoining, one ; to Warm field one ; to Whitby one ; the town of Halifax would be taken out of schedule A, to be added to schedule B. To all counties in England and IVales it was proposed to add one additional member. and those coun ties containing more than 130,000 inhabitants would have the pri vilege of sending four member,. Glamorganshire, which sent one, would send two. He then observed, that Buckingham, Marlbo rough, and three other places, would be taken out of schedule A. and put into schedule B, and seven towns now included in schedule B would be allowed to retain their representatives. Scotland was to have five additional Memberv, and Ireland five, so that the total diminution of Members would be 31, leaving the total number 627. With regard to the voting, many complaints had been made; it was therefore pro posed, that in all counties the right of voting should be extended to all persons holding leases of 999 years, and for all those holding leases of sixty years of 10L a year value. As respected the voting for towns, it would include all those occupying houses, warehouses, and counting houses, at the same ratio as householders. (Hear.) With respect to continuing the right of freemen during their lives, it was proposod to extend that to their sons who were nearly of age, and apprentices whose time had not yet expired. With regard to Preston, all those now entitled to vote should retain the right for their lives. (Hear.) An alteration would be made regarding the returning officer, who was to preside at all elections. That officer would be appointed by the sheriff on March I, every year. The register-book would suf ficiently attest the eligibility of voters. In making the calculation with population al the data, the interest of property had not been forgotten. He was decidedly of opinion that no one who had the welfare of the country at heart would defer the measure, for It might be attended with consequences not easily to be calculated upon should the measure be deferred for another year. He had taken the pre caution of having a corrected copy of the bill sent to the printer, so that every member would on the morrow (this day) be put in possession of the Bill as it was entire. He had before him two very prominent opi nions—the opinion of Lord Grey, who contended for the necessity of the measure ; and the opinion of the Duke of Wellington, who as de cided!y opposed it : but however much the noble Duke might be en. titled to claims on other accounts from the country, his opinion in this case was not correctly formed. The fact of the House, such as It was constituted, having by a majority, certainly a very small one—(hear, hear, from the Opposition)—but still it was a majority, having supporte d a second reading, was a strong proof of the Im. perative necessity of the measure. (Hear, hear.) His Lordship here enumerated the many interests that Ministers had to contend with, and came to the conclusion, that the majority on the second reading, although small, was, in point of fact, one of unparalleled magnitude, after one of the moat lengthened and obstinate debates that had ever taken place in that house. (Hear hear, hear.) This was the bill, the whole bill, and nothing but the bill. bis was the very bill that had been, by the sanction of his Majesty, submitted by his Cabinet to th at house. The details had been Interfered with certainly, but the prinei- ' pie was the same as it was the first day it was proposed to the at tention of the honse. If any gentleman thought proper to again enter into the principles of the measure,_ he (Lord J. Russell) was ready to meet him, and to defend it. Whatever others might say, those who proposed the measure were bound to its principle, and by its principle they would abide. (Cheers.) Whatever advice Mi nisters might have given their sovereign, the House might be assured that they were bound together for the purpose of carrying the bill. That bill having been announced to the people under its present princi ples, and announced under the unction under which it bad been an nounced, having been so received and approved of by the House, to alter and break in upon it, would be to prepare a contest as dangerous as it must be fruitless. The measure had been brought forward under a condemnation of boldness. He was, however, nut so hold as to do one thing—to carry on a contest for die borough proprietors against the rights and interests of the country and contend for the unjust influence of a few at the risk of a general commotion. He thought that if passed now, the bill might be passed in tranquillity. But if the house did not listen to the advice which he humbly offered, he felt that those who had undertaken to command the majority against the bill, had a task to en. counter which no minister would be able successfully to achieve. If ever there was a minister powerful in the esteem of his country, from the services which he had performed, it was the Duke of Wellington ; he who, from the victories he had achieved, both in military and civil life, was entitled to such attention and respect, and had been the confi dential and all-powerful minister of two successive sovereigns ; if be, by his opposition to Reform, found that power at once crushed and shivered by a storm to which he would not bend, where was the minister with the character, the influence, the talent of unitin g men to get h er , t h at h e cou ld venture to undertake the conduct of authority in that house, and hope for a successful contest against the mighty will, the clearly pronounced wish, the undeniable, loud, and enthusiastic voice of the people of the three kingdoms.—( Great cheering.) The question having been put, that the house resolve itself into a committee, General (iASCOYNE rose to move a resolution. He would first ask whether this was what ministers considered the whole of the bill, and nothing but the bill P (Hear, hear, from both sides of the house.) He thought the bill should be withdrawn, and brought In as a new bill. (Laughter.) His main objection was to the reduction of members. From the earliest period he could find no one instance of a proposition for reduction. They might grant, if they pleased, representatives to the large towns ; but he demanded that England should not be deprived of her just proportion. Population and property formed the basis of the The population of Ireland had been exaggerated at the Union, being cal. eulated at 4,000,000. The revenue of Ireland was then 4,700,0001. that of England 27,000,0001. At present the revenue of Ireland loudly exceeded I.loth of that of England. What would the Scotch and Irish members have said bad a reduction in their number been proposed, for the increasing of the English representatives ? The hon. member for Waterford would have called the proposition an infraction of the Union. The influence already possessed by the Scotch and Irish members was apparent • it had been seen on divers questions, of taxation, cash pay. ments, a nd other important subjects. The present concession would lead to demands fur • further increase on the part of the Irish mem bers. The result would be, that Ireland would remain for river corn. partitively exempt from taxation. He repeated that his main (Nee. tion to the bill was the reduction in the number of members, and he should move as a resolution, that " It is the opinion of the House that the total number of knights, citizens, and burgesses . repro. senting England and Wales, should not be diminished." (Cheers.) Mr. SADLER seconded the resolution. He considered the reduction of the English Members unjustifiable, especially at a time when such vital questions were agitating throughout the country; when the unity of the empire was threatened ; and even the sword had been appealed to. He proceeded to say that he found it difficult to deal with a measure subject to such fluctuations. The prnt bill was another edition of the late budget, a nd wou ld, ere lo ng, like its predecessor, retain little else but its name. It wou ld seem that the late innovations were not the first which bad taken place, if they were to judge from the original declarations of a noble and learned lord, that the reform to be proposed would obtain the support of all reformers. The Member for Cambridge could tell them whether that general support had been obtained. He contended that the direct mode of repre. sentation proposed was dissimilar to the principle of virtual repre sentation, which the founders of the constitution had never lost sight of. They never acknowledged any principle of representation founded on geography or statistics. In the boroughs, and he could cite as an authority for this opinion, a late number of the Edinburgh Review, the elective franchise was vested in the select burgesses. The present mea sure was not, therefore, one of " restoration," but of " pulling down ;" it was revolutionary. To allude to the nomination boroughs, none could be ignorant that such boroughs, so often stigmatised as violating the spirit of the constitution, had been created by the Crown for the sake of affording a virtual representation to large masses of property. These boroughs were the only safeguards to pro perty : once done away with, there were no deeds or parchments which could guarantee its preservation. He could prove on the very best authorities, that inflames was necessary if the constitu tion was to be preserved. By whetting was they to judge of what was called the rotten system ? by expedence. Look at the revolution.— Would that great event have been hem& about but for the close and rotten system ? What would blase of the Let ol Settlement, but for the same system? That Am paned by a majority of are; the county =ohm woe two to or Spinet lt, so were the open towns; it was the dem tad seseusystem that gave us the House of Beunewick— a Weis to this esimmy owl so the world. (bond eries of hear, hear.) When the thetelmo et polies obedisto was prevalent in this liberty ; that wee the the ekes and Mom lesesegh case at the tidal of limhotoreLT: l o=t d as beta feather thrown up lo the eempoot ; still Mimed the waft of the system. Only thirteen mein, nemltme void he limes of *Cool zeligisse liberty. The triumph was achieved by the close and rotten system. It sou not only necessary that the House should have patriotism, but talent. Whet, the bill of rights was M be drawn up it was done by the Members to, rotten boroughs. The same was the case with the committee of m a . negement appointed to confer with the Lords. If at that time the eon. stitution had been dealt with as it was now proposed to deal with it, this country wouldnot have the bill of rights new the house of Beers. wick. (Hear, hear, hear.) The advocates of the Bill spoke of ' doing away with virtual representation ; but should the Bill p a ,.., which Go d forbid, the electors would still be a minority, and there must be virtual representation, or no representation fur the majorin . —They appeared to suppose that all under the firmament of t.ti pounds a-year rental was dark and feculent, that all above we. light and pure ; but he could tell the Noble Lord, that if be wer e better acquainted with the society of this country, he would find as much personal purity below his firmament as if he went as hi g h as stars and garters. (Hear, hear ) If virtual representation was to b e abolished, how were the scores of millions of British subjects in Indi s to be represented, when even the generous fiction by which they nor; found advocates in that House was to be taken from them ? The Con. stitution had the power of improving and of preserving itself. The imputation of rottenness was not new. Addison called the imputation that Parliament was made of corruption, a stale accusation. Locke did not hesitate to say, that though representation by election often herons unequal, and when a decayed village sent as many representatives a, rs rich county, strangers stood amazed, and the case required a reined ) . it possible, to be applied; yet, as the Constitution was determined by the people, there existed no power to apply the remedy. (Hear, and a laugh.) The boroughs proposed to be taken away were, in many in. stances, not decayed, but were advanced in importance since the eleethe franchise was bestowed upon them. (A laugh.) He saw the fouls treated this with levity. Thus it was— " Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."—(Great laughter.) Bacon had often been quoted when he said, " time was the great inno vator,"—but what followed was omitted. Time, he said, innovated slowly—it were well if men followed the example. (Hear, bear.) We were going to innovate rashly by taking away a large portion of out representative system, and by revolutionizing the remainder. (Hear. hear.) How had they acted with the venerable building In which they were then assembled ? They saw the hand of time was on it ; but they did not call in a Committee of architects to destroy it with the ham mer and axe, that they might erect a modern building in its place;— no, they repaired it stone by stone, and preserved the venerable monument of genius, to triumph over the pigmy moderns by which it was surrounded. (Hear, hear.) He was confident when this cabinet model of representation was examined it would be found to contain more faults than that which it was to displace. It was impossible that the people disfranchised by the bill could be satisfied with it from any other cause, than regarding the present bill as a stepping stone to all they sought. The wonderful unanimity that was boasted of was proof of this—it was the calm before the tempest. As far as he could under stand the measure, it was to constitute a legislature free from influence. It was obvious a town population had advantages a scattered popula tion could never possess. The noble member for Tavistock, in his Work on the Constitution, said, the worst constituency was that of large towns. The first basis of representation, according to the bill, was property ; but it appeared by the returns to the property-tax, that the rental of the towns sou thirteen millions, while the rental of the land was thirty-eight millions. Turning to the other basis, the population of the towns was 2,920,000, while the population of the country was 8,341,000. It might be objected that some towns were not in cluded, but their population was under 500,000. The bill, therefore, proposed to give to thirty-eight millions rent, and between eight and nine millions of people, 149 representatives; and to give to thirteen millions rent, and three millions of people, 295 representatives ! What reason could be assigned for giving representation in such dispropor. dons ? It was to verify the language of Burke when writing on the new French constitution :—" You appear to me to proport ion your re presentation in the inverse proportion to property a opulation."— They all knew the result. (Hear.) They were told that virtual repre sentation would rectify this defect, and that the influence of country gentlemen would procure their return for the neighbouring towns, Yes, if they would make certain promises. (Hear, bear.) He was confident a qualification would be required. and those who supposed that the influence of the aristocracy would by this means be pre. served would be deceived. If one man did not bid high enough at the auction of popularity, another would. (Hear, bear.) This was what they were going to do; he was going to say with their eyes open, but it was with their eyes shut--for the mental eye was expe. nence; they had no experience of the proposed system, but they had much experience of the system they were going to destroy. They dealt unfairly with the present system. He bad thought that the most flagrant. the most infamous part of the present bill would have been extduehd. All who were acquainted with the subject knew that the rated rental was a very distinct thing from the real rental : after the present bill it would become the same, for the purpose of qualification, and the expenditure of 100 L would at any time confer a vote. While this was done in towns, what was the case in the country? The agriculturists were not to have a vote for a rental of 101. a-year—it might be, not for a rental of a hundred times 101. He would be glad to bear how any man, inig or Tory, could defend a principle of this sort—it was iniquitous from beginning to end : (hear, bear.) The Noble Lord drew an ex ulting comparison between the farmer of Norfolk and the elector of Devises. He could not be sincere in the compliments he paid the rural population. He had positively disqualified a large body of agrieulturista, who rented ten times the amount of the ten pound a year townsmen. The Constitution of Cromwell had been alluded to :—contrast his scheme with the present; he gave to the counties of England 237 representatiees, and the towns 141; the present gives the counties 143 representatives, and the towns 277. Cromwell's Consti tution had reference to the proportion of wealth which this measure wholly disregarded. The powers of the bill proposed to divide the counties after the fashion of the French Revolutionists. In the counties one member was given to about 60,000 of the rural population. There was but one principle apparent ; it was either partial, or it displayed an ignorance that he would not impute to any constitution makers in the world. He knew what would be the effect in many of the counties, they would be rendered close boroughs. Durham first presented itself, and certainly required explanation. Durham was to have five additional members,and the great county of York one additional member. Durham was to have one member to every 34,000 rural inhabitants ; the West Riding of York was to have but one member to 303,000 rural inhabi tants. A noble lord, not now a member of that house, might explain this. Northumberland was to have four members. The noble lord at the head of the administration might explain this. Lancaster was to have but four members, though it contained twenty times the wealth of some other counties. Northampton was also a favoured county. By what rule he could not determine. He must assert that it was a dangerous principle to determine a man's right by the number of neighbours he might have. It was a gross act of injustice and folly to take from a man his birthright because he had not more neighbours. It was said the fran. chile sou a trust; but he always thought a trust was not to be taken away till it had been forfeited. The franchise was a trust, so was the Crown. This was the language of the noble lord himself, who said there ought to be as good reason for disfranchising Old Sarum as for expelling King James. The noble author added, it was extremely dif ficult to cut off some boroughs on aceoant of their size—if a borough of 500 electors was to be cut off, what was to save a borough of 56. Any re form of this kind would lead to the reconstruction of the whole building • plan he wished to avoid. It was singular that with these opinions and feelings the noble lord had propounded such a plan as the present Bill. He pledged himself to stew the noble lord places infinitely better en. titled to return members than Peterborough, Mahon, Cabe, or Tavis. cock ; and it would be too ridiculous to plead antiquity where iniquity and right had been disregarded. (Hear, hear.) He would give half a score pl a c e s, In a neighbouring county to Dutitue, dint hod mare Jahr bitants than Gateshead, that were left lump There tune resiz. that could justify this partiality. He was congas* the new cod= not bear examination. These were his Imbibed opinions hag before he contemplated having the honour of a seat in that house.— (Hear, hear.) He was then a warm defender of the constitution ell& country, and he admired it still more when he compared it with that which it was attempted to fabricate in its place; and when he fined the highest ornaments of this country, and of many other countries unite in opinion of its excellence, he felt his enthusiasm was just; sod as 31inisters declared they would stand or fall by their Bill, he de clared be would stand or fall by th e venerated Constitution of his country.—(Hear, hear.).—The Judge Advocate had said in his admired work, that " if the House of Commons were really to become the organ of the public voice, the privileges of the other two branches of the con. stitution were opposed to the will of the people, and their representa tives would be as dust in the ballance." He perfectly agreed in the opinion, and was ,confident that if this Bill were passel, the next popular excitement would sweep away that dust in the balance.— (Hear, hear, hear.)—lf the supporters of this Bill were to pass it, which God forbid, when they approached their too confiding Sove. reign and obtained his signature, he might then see another writing on the wall—" thy kingdom is departed from thee." (Cheers and laughter.) If vested rights were to be.destroyed by this bill, what was to become of vested wrongs? (Cheers.) What was to become of the property of which the church had been the depositary ? He wished to preserve the property of the supporters of the bill (laughter). If this great 'polls don was to take place, they might depend the rights and property of the church and of corporations would soon follow. He hoped the House would come to the decision of this momentous question, impressed with the conviction, that they must answer for their vote to their consciences, to their country, and to their God. (The honourable gentleman sat down amidst the loudest cheering.) Lord ALTHORP said the amendment was calculated to destroy the bill (Hear.) If its object were not to destroy the bill, it was calculated most seriously to alter be character ; and be it also remem bered, that it was only the that of • series of propositions to cripple the measure when it got into the Committee, or so to aim it that the Mi. Memo Gould no longer think of urging forward the measure. As to the charges against the Hilit he - coeld not think the honourable member was onions when be denounced it as spoliating England hr the benefit of Ireland and Scotland: it might as well be said that they were spolistieg Comma for the sake of Yorkshire. (Hear , hear.) But &OM Mill had the preponderance of nearly five to 011116 Where, thi s was the draw from numbers ?He was asto- Mid that the Vela imago in the HD were complained of by those win ~'