Star. — London, England, 1817-01-30 00:00:00

! e t h s as that Which had been rejected this rreniag by the House? Lord COCHRANE thought it contained tome ot her mitten. Aft( r ,1 short conversation the Petition was rejected. Lord STANLEY observed, that there was already en the table a Petition from the same town in t h e roe county. He wi.lie.l the *Noble Lnrd to state, sshrther it was the s.inie ? He wimid ow n that he !ad no knowledge ni these Petitions previously to the er.:,ent motion. He was aware that a great number ci Petitions on the same subject were intended to he prevnted from that Cminty to the Hawse, but with ttese he was ruu in the least acqu slated. He hoped a behalf of those of his constituents who had thought ate Noble Lord more worthy of being their represen :Atire, that if this Petition were couched in the same ,bjectionable language as those already rejected, he .ctuld give them an opportunity of reconsidering :•leir expressions, and rendering them more fit to be I;: ct,rd. Lord COCHRANE stated, that the Petitions had been placed is his hands without any interference on hi s s ide, and that he had never been in that part of the country. Lord STANLEY wished to know whether the present Petition was the same as the former ? Lord COCHRANE thought that it complained of different things. Mr. C. W. WYNNE thought, that if the petition snatained matter which the House had determined 10 be offensive. it should not be received. Gtr. HUSKISSON could not help observing, that the prier of the petition stood on a distinct sheet from tLe signatures, which might thus have been ob tained to be annexed to any other piece of paper, with very different views. He thrught that the Ho nourable Members who presented Petitions should be ! wired to stite that the signatures annexed in that manner to them had been really obtained for that purpose ; otherwise signatures might be applied to dints for which they were not intended. The SPEAKER stated, that it was a general rule of the House to expect on every Petition certain sig natures subscribed. If the signatures were on any other paper, then the Petition was to be considered ;is without signatures. In that which he now held in his hands, there was no signature affixed to the Peti t:on itself. When the signatures were too numerous, it was natural that other sheets should be added ; but Men some of them must be subscribed at the close of the Petition on the original sheet. Mr. CANNING remarked, that it was the same with the Petition from Ashton, though there was ample room (or the signatures. Mr. HUSKISSON 'thought that after the rule rhich had beeu laid down, u was incumbent on the Yoble Lord to say whether die signatures had been obtained for the Petition in question ? Sir FRANCIS BURDETT asked whether any Gentleman in the anise would lay his hand upon his heart, and say, that he did not believe the eigna tires had been intended fur the Petition to which they acre affixed? The manner in which they were at tached liad'probably arisen from the number of per sons who wished to sign in different districts, and whose names, after being collected, had been annexed in the Petition. All large Petitions piesented to the House were in the same dilemma to a certain event ; tor if only six or seven persons bad signed on the first sheet, there was no more reason to believe that the rimes on tlie additional ahem were intended fur the petition, than in the present inst ince. This doctrine aaolow for the first time brought forward. (No,ne!ee the Ministerial tide.) He then expressed his surprise that .1 entering the House he should have witnessed the teection of a Petition, without hearing a single argu ment used against it. The AT FORNEY-GENERAL observed. that Pie ignorance of the Honourable Baronet arose from !,is coming late-to the House. He would otherwise fizve known that die Petition to which be had alluded, had been rejected without any argument, because the, itigse had prevjously cltcided that one containing Cie same language could not be admitted. He did hot agree with the Honourable Baronet that the ob . - 1.,.ti0n now taken was merely technical and formal. if a Petition be presented on a sheet of parchment, the prayer on a piece of paper, and the James on aliati,r, the latter might have been annexed to either the former. This would not do in common life, la', to make the two one instrument, the party who alius his signature must have had an opportunity of + seung both, otherwise it might be possible that bu !eau: sloaild be open in certain parts for Petitions, ald other fitireauz in other parts for receiving signa :nos, without having seen the Petitions. The House ..tight to know whether. the Petitions really were those 1 ! the persona whose signatures . were added to them. It the Noble 'Lord could throw no light on the sub ject, he had bean practised upon by the persons who :1,,t given him the Petitions without :applying him With proper information. Sr. FRANCIS BURDET'T repeated his former argument, thllt when a petition was only signed on th e tits: sheet by one name. it ought so be considered Lily as the petition t . .f one individual, it the present tl. , ciri ne were admitted. Mr. ELLIOT, since he had held a sett in Parlia mc'nt, had never voted for the reeept• I petit' s, toe whole yam and tenor of which weft insulting to the I - Luse. It was because he most highly valucd tt A ht of petition, that his chief aim was to guard lz Iron abuse. The Hon. Baronet had 1111E5111We:- ' . 10.4 the subject. It was necessary that there should ;tt IC.ist one signature on the sheet ut the petition, "I'd it remained fur the House to decide whether it " 2 ld now depart from tis usual practice The SPEAKER. stated, that it should be well un -441;104 that any Honourable Member offering a k”.t!.,:i to the Muse, was bound to to make himself ....taut of its subject.. The Noble Lord had not read Imititin before ; he now had aM •opportunity I it, and of acquiring that informAtion of which preitiosity to have possessed himself. C. W. WYNNEbbjected to thePetitinn +being re teltell, unless the Noble Lord should stile that it Ir.ob the a s thma,. leochAge of that which bed to rejected. KOBINSON thought that the Noble Lord hiottelt to blame for the difficulties which had encountered. +le had already beets asked on Anne, Petition, witethrr it were the same as one hilt fad been rejected bad replied. that it Pfeafied to him to contain stew matter. Ihe Pt ti twi had conseluently been lead, and had beep futma to 1* verbaily the use as that which ball been thrown out. The SPEAKER said that he thought the Noble Lord would have known better than to Conceive that the usages of that House were ruled by the uses of any other place. No name appeared on the sheet of the petition; was tile Nable Lord prepared to say that no nante was .11fitt:d to it? Lord COCHRANE acknoseleJged: that in that sense there appeared to be no name to the pnition, Phe SPEAKER—Then the Noble Lord is not at i betty to •resent it. Lord CoCH KANE was happy, at least, that he had been the means of acquainting the public with the ruhs 01 the House. The SPEAKER—They are not new: for they have existed in that state for ages. Lord COCHRANE presented a petition for Par., liamentary Reform from the Freeholders, Manufac turers, and other Inhabitants of the township of Quick, in the parish of Saddlewortb, in Yorkshire. Mr. CANNING, with the courtesy due from one Hon. Memiyer to another, wished to know whether this petition was not the same with that which the House had already rejected ? Lord COCHRANE said, that it did not appear to him to be the same. But he did not go into ver bal criticism. The SPEAKER.—The Noble Lord would do his duty better to himself by answering • the plain ques. tion, whether the petition be the same ? Lord COCHRANE.—I am really so confused by all the observations which have been made, that I do not recollect exactly what the first petition contained. The petition having been read, Lord COCHRANE moved that it lie on the table. Mr. CANNING had waited till the Noble Lord had made that motion, in the hope, and with the conviction, that though he had not taken the trouble of perusing the petition, yet, alter having heard it read, and found that it was in every term expressly the same as that which had been rejected, and that which he had himself consented to withdraw, he would not, after the dignified and friendly warning of the Speaker, persist in forcing the House tnreject it a second time. Gun forbid that the subject of lte• form should not be discussed in Parliament ; but did the Noble Lord think he introduced it with advan. rage as he now did ? The Noble Lord had been told that petitions must have the sanction of some name, and that had appeared ►:diculous to an Honourable &stone, who said, that they might then be am ibuted only to the few contained on the original sheet. Buz even in that case the House would receive the petition as of one. Did not the langtiaige of those presented this evening, prove them to have been, if not the work of the same hand, as they were evidently, thermana tions of the same mind ? When hundreds of petitions' presented the very same sentiments, expressed in dta very same words, could any min lay his hand upon his heart and say, that he did not believe them to be fabrications ? He hoped the House would allow the Noble Lord to withdraw the Petition; or that he would not at least press it in the House on the same grounds. Lord COCHRANE did not mean to be pertina cious, but knowing that the substance of all the peti.• tilos which he held was nearly the same, he had only moved that the present be allowed to he on the table, a motion which any Member was free to oppose. Alter a few words from Mr. Alderman SisITU, the question was put and negatived *about a dreasiow. ERC:IIITARY OF THE ADMIRALTY. Lord MILTON wished to know whether a report which he had heard was collect, that during the short state of war with Algiers, the salary of the Secretary of the Admiralty had been raised to the war allowance; as, it it had been the case, he should think it his duty, at a future period, to make a niotieni upon the subject ? Mr. CROKER stated, that the salaries of the Secretaries bad been put on the war allowance dur ing the time that the war with , Algiers lasted. A , to the Noble Lord's motion, he shoulil meet it with pleasure, as he would be able to give satisfactory reasons for the measure which had been adopted. ADORCIIO 70 fll6 PRINCE. The SPEAKER acquainted the Home that the Address of both Houses had been rim:hied this do to the Prince Regent; to which I Alb Royal Highness had been pleased to return a gracious answer.—(See the Lords.) MIMEO= Off THE HOUSE. Mr. W. W YNNE then rose to call the attention of die House to a certain distinction assumed by the Lords in the conference which took place yesterday in the Painted Chamber. It had on all former occa sions been usual fur the Lords at a conle-ence to sit covered on one side of the table, and the Commons to stand uncovered on the other ; this distinction had always been freely given to the Lords; but at the conference yesterda, a different system had been adopted—the table was removed—the seats of the Lords were elevated a step and the Commons mere kept outside the bar. He had felt it his duty to take the earliest opportunity of taking notice of that circumstance. Tile CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had also renuilied the deviation from the usual Cu.. ton, but was inclined to think it arose from acciden tal causes ; he was of opinion it would be as well to allow the matter to rest as it at present was, and he had no doubt but they would find things in the usual state in the nest conference. The SPEAKER thought the subj..ct had been properly noticed, and if it was accidental, it would at least be proper to call the attention of the Lords to the accident. The Painted Chamber was the pro perty of the Lords; the conferences were always held there ; and it would not be improper to send a mes sage to their Lordships, requesting that the same accommodation might in future be afforded to the Commons at conferences as bad been usual on for mer ucc.isions. After some further observations from Mr. W. Sretru. and Mr.Wirenz, the latter Gentleman submit ted A /notion founded onthis suggestion.—Agreedto. '4ll.oJOUllbii/ DUIATZ ON Vie ADDIUM The Order of the Day for resuming thi debate °al the Address having been read, Mr. CUR WEN rose.—.lt was with much regret that he forced himself upon the attention of the House, but he felt it to be his duty to declare his sentiment. l on such an occasion. He would' have been ilk ; iluppy it it had beetrin his power to have concurreu in the Address which hid been last night moved because, at such a dow, he would by alhoeausbeeid adding any embarrassments to the situation of extreme difficulty in which his Majesty's Ministers were al ready placed; but the duty which he felt himself called upon to discharge compelled him to make some remarks upon the Speech which had been yesterday delivered from the Throne. In submitting View to the House, he would not he supposed to mean any thing like disrespect, if he considered it as the speech of his Majesty's Ministers. What had been the con duct of these Ministers during the last Session r.f Par liament ? They began with professions of economy and retrenchment ; but did they act up to these pro fessions? On the contrary, they had not adopted one single measure of economy but those which had been forced upon them by the House. With respect to taxation, it most be the wish of every Member of the House to maintain inviolate the public credit; and there were therefore many burdens which could not be immediately removed. But then, it *AS their duty to remove all those which the maintenance of public credit did not absolutely require; and in the present situation of the country, the utmost which the House could do must fall short of complete relief.— Yet it was necessary to look their situation in the face. Not that it was necessary to take a desponding view of it. But that was certainly the most desponding course, which would prevent us from looking to our real situation. Was there any man in the country who found consolation in that part of the Speech which stated that no new tax would be necessary-?' Yet the Noble Mover and the Seconder of the Ad dress wished us to derive much consolation from that passage. Last year Ministers, if they had been al lowed, would have imposed the Income Tax, and it they had imposed it, he could prove to the House that it would not have been possible to collect it. l'axation was at suck a pitch at present, that it would be impossible to collect another shilling beyond what was now levied —(Hear, hear, hear, frost she Oispositioa.) Already there had been a great deficiency in the re venue, and there was a prospect that it would be still greater. It was not enough that no new tax should be imposed ; it was not possible to continue the pre sent burdens. '•Phis was no time to talk of expe dients. There could be no teMporary expedient de. vibes] which would not leave us in a worse situation than we were in already. It would not now du to act upon the notion that " sufficient for die day is tie evil there.it." It was not such sentiments that would save us. Although he concurred with the Mover and Seconder of the Address on many of the topics which they had :a ably treated, yet upon the whole, he conceived that the view which they took was calculated to deceive —(Hear. hear.) — rim deficiency in the revenue was highly al.anling; but it was nit this which he so much dreaded as the enormous establishments, with the continuance of which we were threatened. As to the congratula tions on the liberal slbscriptiins for the relief of dis-, tress, these c..ntributions were merely as a drop of water in the ocean of feisery. They would not be enough to pay the labour of the working part of the community fur six hours. Instead of calling or sane. tinning meetings to collect subscripii.ins, the Prince Regent ought to cave called Parliament together.-- (Hear, bear, freest the Ontemiost.) It was ausur;d say thet the sources of prosperity were net impaired, at a time when the amount of the decre..se of rents within the last year was turfy selsaoo,ooo, and when the revenue of the country was X 15,000000 ‘leseersto it was tiro years 'sows. It was not the want• of exports that was tic cause of our distress, but the' want of home consumption. He disclaimed any ge- ' neral disposition on his part to oppose his Majesty's Ministers. The situation of the country was Slid, AS to extinguish all party feeling. He thought that pirt of the Speech which mentioned die distils :sauces went so tar as to chair: the people ut Eng laud s%itli a disposition to tumult, at a moment, too, "hen the good sense, patience, and font:side of that people were so eminently displayed. (Hear, hear.) — It was a calumny to charge the condu..t of an iuf.- mous Spa-fields .no on the whole people of England. —(Hsar,hear).—On the proceedings ot that mob the penple of England looked with execration. At the same :ime he was aware that there were demagogues (whom it would be too great an honour to name) who were at work without the walls of the House., ISut he did not apprehend any serious danger from' their axis. The Constitution mu►t be weak indeed it it could be overturned by such persons.—(Weer, hear).—Nevertheless, there was much round for a moderate and rational Reform, consistent with the spirit of the Constitution. He concluded with some observations on the necessity of retrenchment, dis , approving, in general terms, of the foreign policy of Ministers, and declaring his resolution to vote for the Amendment. Mr: BAN KES said, that he concurred in the ge neral tenor of Me Miress which bad been moved. It had been objected to the Speech and the Ad dress, that they gave a false representation of the state of the country, and tended to delude the people. It tit it were realty the case, he contested that he would find it his duty to disapprove of both in the most de cided terms, because it would at all times, but espe malty now, be a crime to permit such gross false hoods as to the state of the nation. But he thought that all those Rho had spoken in favour of the amend meat and against the Address, had failed in making out the charge of falsehood and delusion. He did not think it was always useful to state calatnities in me heaviest and most desponding terms. The dd . .' Terence between the Address and the Amendment seemed to be, that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby) who moved the Amendment, thought we should assume a desponding tone, while those who approved of the Address considered it better to state facts as they really were—(Hear, Agar, heir). The fault charged itainst his Majesty's Ministers, with respei.t to the Speech from the rheen.. was, that they allu wed it to speak too well of the situation of the coun try. This was the front of the charge against them. Now with respect to the passage of the Speech et the close of the last Session, which had been last night read by the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Pon sonhy), it certainly had surprised him (Mr. &lakes) when be beard it said, at the end of the last Session, that the Revenue was then in a flourishing state. But when he saw the papers, he found that this was not a fiction, buts fact, borne out by the official do-, cuments. The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby ). in one part of his speech said, that this was a time which called for the union and exertions of all . parties i but contrary to this his own doctrine, he was seeking.for difibrenees, bygoing into theme trifliagdistinctions. As to that part of the Address which proposed an inquiry into the income and en penditure of Oie nation, the Right Hoi.ourable Gen tleman said, No ; he would not have the inquiry con fined to the income and expenditure; but would have a Committee to inquire into the state of the nation. this seemed really captious. He would wish to know whether, if the Right Honourable Gentleman bad known the nature of the Speech before preparing his amendment, he would really have moved it. Per haps, indeed, his motive was merely to ascertain; at the commencement of the Session, who were likely to vote for, and who against Ministers—(Hear.)—. For his own part,. he thought the Amendment the most trifling wide!) he had ever heard, and therefore he would vote against it. The inquiry proposed by the Address had his entire approbation, from a con viction of its utility. As to what had been said by the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last, respect ing that part of the Address which related to the re cent disturbances, lie thought there was not the slightest reason to say that it charged any disposition to tumult upon the whole people of England, who now, as they ever had done, evinced the most admi rable patience and endurance during the time of ca. lannity and distress. The :agricultural interest had been most afflictingly and eriev.e.sly oppressed. This most always be the case at the close of every wars The same had happened to an excessive degree at the termination of the American war—to such a de gree that it was thought impossible that it could ever recover. From the way in which the Right Hon. Gent. (Mr. P.) had talked of the enormous amount of the Public Debt, one would have thought, from his manner,that he was announcing a new discovery. The increase of the Debt had been, not a matter of option, but of necessity. It was the unavoidable conse quence of the war in which we bail been engaged-- As to the expediency of continuiug the war there bad been a difference et opinion; but the majotity of the people was certainly of the same opinion with Par liament when it was revo:ved to struggle through with it. But the National Debt, although a calamity, was not that by whirls the country was now borne down. During the war. while the public debt was rapidly increasing, agriculture and commerce were in a state flourishing beyond all precedent. It was therefore evident that it was not to our public debt that our present distresses were to be imputed. The first cause of our distress was the discontinuance of that monopoly of commerce which we had during the war. AnOther cause was the want of that prodi gious employraent of labour which the war had given to all classec. It was a mistake to suppoti that taking off taxes would be a complete relief. What had been the case last year 1 Taxes to the amount of 17 mil lions and a half had been taken off, and yet the peo ple were not relieved. Retrenchment anti economy were the only effectual means of relief, and these were promised : it was the business of the House to see that they were practised. It was therefore with great pleasure that he heard that the establishments for this year were calculated on a much lower scale than those for the last. Actuated by these sentiments. and agreeing that we ought to look our situation fully in the tact, and not to practise or sanction any delu sion, he felt it to he his duty to vote for the Address. Mr. BROUGHAM said he was impressed with the same feelings that lead marked the close of the Honourable Gentleman's speech; but to that alone he restricted his appr e bar on . F or n speech more calculated to delude the people be had never heard, in the must sanguine day of the most sanguine Minister; but, corning from a neutral territory, and, backed too ai.h professions of impartiality, it requited the antidote to be administered contemporaneously with the poison. The Honourable Gentleman. had referred to oar state at the end of the American war. There was no parallel betwixt the two cases, and it was a delusion to bold it so out to the country. As to the Committee alluded to by the Honourable Gentleman, it would only be a means of delusion, if it plozeeded in the old way of calling for papers, and producing a voluminous Report at the end of the Session, which it would be impossible to discuss. A Committee calculated to produce a real Reform should consist, not of men ingenious in defending abuses, but of uncomptonsidlig characters, and de tee mined to remove the grievances of the public. If such men should be in the Committee, they must necessarily bear sway, and would not act a delicate, shifting, advocate.hke part.—(Hear, hear.) • Such a Committee should also report every morning and even ing of the day in which it had co tee to a resolution. The distress of the agricultural part of the commu nity had now extended to all classes, though the Speech from the Throne had said that commerce and manufactures were flourishing. But the manufac turers of Yorkshire were new in as distressed a state as the agricultural interest was a year age. One omission ut the Speech was remarkable—that ittnn tained no allusion to the state of our commercial ar. rangeenents with foreign countries. Amidst all the success of our asms, no attempts had been made to turn trade into new channels for the relief of our ma nufacturers. Though our arms had been crowned with victory, and we had been able to impose a dy nasty upon a people—(hear, hear)—our influence was wholly unavailing to procure any alleviation for the .distress of our manufacturers, by opening new chan nels of trade. The present posture of our affairs was highly favourable for the negotiation of commercial treaties, which would promote the best interests of the counttly, bat be was apprehensive that our relations with foreign States were not, and would not be, regu. lated by a regard to those interests; however, es the Nobk Lord who had the management.of thatdepart ment was not in his place, he should desist from any extended observations on the subject, at this tine. —lt was well known that the policy of those States which had been renovated by the sacrifices of this country, was inimical to our trade ;—those who thought the system.of Bonaparte bad been destroyed .with his power to enforce, were utterly snistakeo ; the plan for the exclusion of our goods from the Continental markets; was of his invention; the expe riment and the improvement of it was his; but. with all his ingenuity, it failed in the purpose for which it designed. Not so the Sovereigns of Europe ; they were carrying it into effect with great success. At the beginning of the peace, the system was reviv ed, which had been one of tbeteatest eseitensenu in . twthhisirwsuuartmp,Eirtettthodic by h oun r tterac eza; rop n t : ( l ll s , 7ce, begoreAre :a iearliad t raw