Star. — London, England, 1821-05-17 00:00:00

I sin. The question was then . put at rest, so far as Parliament was concerned. After that decision, what could be the feeling of the Honourable Baronet ? If he was satisfied with the late Parliament, why was this painful subject to be brought forward again?— Why was the Honourable Baronet silent on the sub ject during the whole of 1820? When the Honour able Baronet gave notice in June, why did he suffer it to drop? If his reason for not bringing it forward was, that he waited for the trial of Mr. Hunt, that was over in the Spring Assizes. Why was it that the Honourable Baronet thought he could now bring it on? Was it to revive those dormant feelings which, h a ppily for .the country, notwitharnding attempts were made to arouse them, were dormant—(Hear, heat). —The Honourable Baronet had not confined this q uestion to Manchester, although it was an iso lated question. They were to look at all the circum auroces. There was a deal of dissatisfaction among Oe manufacturing classes, and the individual who was to preside at Manchester in August, had previ ously presided at the Meeting in Smithfield, so that the Manchester Meeting was to be considered a branch of that systematic treason which led to open rebellion, and brought under the lash of the law one hundred persons, whose lives would have paid the forfeit of their crime, but for the clemency of the Monarch. He alluded to the persons convicted in Scotland and at York. It was not an assembly of moderate Reformers which took place at Manchester, but a mob, who met for the purpose of producing a revolution' in the country, which would have broken out in a systematic form, had it not been prevented by the Magistracy; and, instead of the blood of that day, torrents would have been shed in various parts. The Hon. Baronet had stated that he (Lord London derry) on a former day pledged himself for the truth of all he advanced, he would, however, say, that nothing had occurred to lead him to believe any facts be stated were incorrect. They were only stated to protect the characters of worthy men. The Magistrates had to contemplate on a Meeting of seventy or eighty thousand men, assembled in mili tary array ; they were called on as Englishmen to suppress P rint, and to be prepared with a military force; their purpose was to watch the Meeting, and it was not until it assumed a character of terror that they issued their warrants. The House would feel that the verdict of a Jury had pronounced it an illegal Meeting, a circumstance which proved the Magis trates were right in issuing their warrants. That be ing the state.of the transaction, it would be a ques tion whether the proceedings of the Magistrates were justified by the exigencies of the case, and whether their conduct was marked with cruelty ? However, upon the face of the evidence, it appeared that the Magistrates did not employ military force until they found their warrants could not be executed by the civil power—(Hear, hear). —Gentlemen on the other side of the House, who exclaimed " Hear !" perhaps knew the fact better than the Officer on duty at the time of the disturbance. The blood shed was not occasioned by the Magistrates, but those who ex cited the People to tumult. Those who, under the mask of *Reform, had no other object than Rebellion. On such persons the charge of blood ought to fall, and not on the Magistrates, who were performing a painful and difficult duty, and who had the manli ness to do that duty with firmness—(Hear, hear). — The Noble Marquis would not condescend to comment on the assertion that justice could not be obtained.— Did they mean to say that the Grand Jury of Man chester had failed to do their duty ? Did they mean to say that it was a question of blood, and that if it was, the misconduct of any Grand Jury could shut up a case of murder from investigation and punish ment? It would have been better if the Honourable Baronet had left the question of murder, supposing it to be such, to the decision of a Jury, for which upon other occasions he professed to have so much respect, than to let it lie upon the Journals of Par liament until it suited his convenience to bring it forward. Did the Honourable Baronet mean to say that the House of Commons was a more competent tribunal in such cases than a Jury of the country ? Did he, after all his attacks upon that House, which he did not even treat with ordinary respect, which he took all opportunities to traduce and vilify in other places—did he now come to that house as the only place in the country where justice could be obtained ?—(Hear, hear). It was an insult to their understandings to assert that the Hon. Baronet had .no other means of proceeding than by such an ap plication, or that those who suffered had no other op portunity of redress than by putting their case into the hands of the Hon. Baronet, to be dealt with at Lis convenience, and according to the new view he had taken of the justice and competency of the Ilouse of Commons. Would not the sufferers have their civil action against the officers concerned, and against the Yeomanry, in which the whole question might be brought under the view of the Court ? But it had been asked, why certain individuals were not examined on the trial of Mr. Hunt? The reason was obvious—the question before the Court was merely, whether the Meeting was legally or illegally convened. Why, he would ask, did they not bring their actions against the Manchester Yeomanry, who had been most unjustly vilified through the whole of those transactions, as all men were sure to be who stood forward boldly to discharge their duty to their coon- . try? It was a proof that they had not a foot of ground to stand upon, when they did not dare to ap pear before a Jury. But then it was urged, on the other hand, that the poor people could not afford to go to trial—that they had not the means. It op. : peared, however, that their case had attracted the at tention of the onourable Baronet, whose name ap -I:7:at the head of a large collection for the suf amounting to £2,000. Was there a farthing Of that money applied to the prosecution of those who were charged with such atrocities against them ? He knew it had been said, that some portion was ex pended at Oldham, but never was there a proceeding more unjustly instituted than that, or more unlikely to answer the ends of justice in any respect—it was a mode of getting up a case to influence the public mind and mislead the public opinion, and not to try the merits of the question. But how was the money applied ? in advertising for the persons who had been wounded ! It was impossible not to feel one's heart bleed for these who suffered, whether through their own infa tuation, or innocently, as was often the case in tu mults, but he still would maintain, that those funds had been better employed in a country like this, where no sufferer, where no wounded nlan could be left to perish, hi prosectiting the offenders, if there was a case against them, than in advertising for wounds and bruises, and for everything that could exaspe rate the feelings of - the people, already sufficiently excited. The Honourahle Baronet came with the worst possible grace before Parliament, after they had already pronounced a solemn decision on the subject.; not that they were indifferent to the suffer ings endured, but that they thought them better , trusted to the ordinary tribunals of the country.— There was no case laid before them now which would justify them in changing that opinion, with regard to transactions of so complicated a nature, and to indivi duals excited arid irritated by the transactions. An Honourable and Learned Gentleman had said, on a former night, that the question was of so lofty and sublimated a kind, as to be unfit for the jurisdiction of the King's Bench ; that the conduct imputed to the Magistracy and Yeomanry of Manchester consti tuted an offence not known to the law, and, there- fore, that a final judgment ought to be pronounced upon it by a decision of that House—(Hear, hear). The Hon. and Learned Gentleman, ,however, would find it difficult to convince the country that it might be better decided in that House without an oath, than in other places where oaths were administered to the witnesses. If he knew anything of a British House of Commons—(Loud cheers from Me Opposition)— they would discharge their duty to their Constituents upon a better principle—(Hear, hear).— He was con fident that the good sense and manliness of Parlia ment would look at the question as an- attempt—a pitiful attempt, thank GOD, to revive the inflamma tion which had subsided. To that manliness and in- telligence, which was its natural characteristic, he looked for the putting down of discord, and the dis countenancing of treason and rebellion. We were delivered from the delusion of another great question, and this was an attempt to renew the excitement of the public mind. Whatever might be said to the dis advantage of Parliament, and whatever pains might be taken to degrade and vilify the House of Com mons, and propagate an opinion that it was not re spected, he would say, that the voice of Parliament had a magical influence on the public mind. The . danger of treason had disappeared before the thunder of Parliament, and he was still confident that the confusion could never be revived by the Honourable Baronet, if the manliness and wisdom of Parliament continued to manifest itself as it had ever done. Mr. SCARLETT said he had no doubt that the Noble Lord's speech was well calculated for its pur pose—(Cheers),-and he had no doubt but it would have its impression. It was a speech much more of the nature of magic than . of reason—(Loud cheers). If it had not reason in it, it had .something surer— (Cheers).—And•the Noble Lord himself seemed to be the greatest thunderer in the House—(Loud and re peated cheers).—This he (Mr. Scarlett) was sure of— that if the Noble Lord were not better acquainted with the House of Commons than with the nature of fair debate, he would not have attempted to defend the weakness of his own cause, by carrying war into the territories of his opponents, and imputing motives to all who stood in his way—(Hear, hear).—From the real nature of the case on the Noble Lord's part, one would have expected a candid and modest de fence—(.l. laugh, and Hear, hear)—he said candid and modest, for if it was a defence which the Noble Lord had made, it was not altogether remarkable for the character of modesty. A great part of it had been an attack on the motives of those who had brought forward this motion. If the Noble Lord could not think of the transaction without feeling' his heart bleeding, could he not conceive any motive for this motion but what was mean, base, and inconsistent with humanity ?—( Hear, hear).—Might he (Mr. Scarlett) not ask why those who brought it forward might not be supposed to feel their hearts bleed too, at the injuries and sufferings of that day, and feel the tenderest humanity as their motive?—(Cheers).--. The Noble Lord had said truly, that the verdict of a Jury had proved the illegality of the Meeting, but the question of the dispersion remained altogether untouched. But it was new to him (Mr. Scarlett) to hear that when the dispersion was of such a nature as to make one's heart bleed, the only remedy was specific actions for each case of injury —(Cheers).-- He thought that the circumstances which made the heart bleed—an immense assemblage, who had com mitted no outrage, dispersed in a manner so cruel, trampled on, wounded, and some destroyed—might be brought before a British House of Commons from a feeling concern for our fellow-subjects, and without , any disposition to excite tumult—(Loud and repeated cheers).—The Noble Lord's manner indicated the, triumph he anticipated ; his confidence had arisen from his knowledge of the result. The subject itself, he (Mr. Scarlett) viewed differently from any view that had hitherto been given of it. He was unwil ling to allude to matters in which he had taken part; but, having been alluded to from both sides of the House, he would offer a few observations on the trial at York. It was perfectly fair to draw inferences from his manner of conducting the trial, but not from his silence in that House, respecting his motives. Why Nadin and others had not been called, the House would not at least know from him. The Public had a right to draw their own inferences. He had en deavoured on that occasion to follow the same path of duty as on every other, and to effect this object by all the means consistent with a good conscience (Hear,-hear).—lt had been said that he was well ac quainted with the Magistrate, Mr. Hulton. He was not well acquainted with him ; he knew none of his family; and all he knew of him or his family was-to his credit. One of his objects in now addressing the House, was to redeem his pledge to him (Mr. Hul ton). Mr. Hulton had- been examined ; his exami nation was before the Public ; it was not so correctly reported as it ought; but nb intentional misrepre sentation could be imputed to any one—(Hear).-- The Meeting having thus begun to assemble, the' mode of its assembly, and the increasing numbers of those assembled, appeared to inspire the inhabitants lof Manchester with considerable alarm. The Ma-1 gistrates, who at that time were assembled at Mr. Buxton's house, did not contemplate .anything more than the collecting of a military force in the• neigh bourhood to watch the Meeting, until they received the depOsitions of thirty or forty respectable Gentle men, that the terrors of the inhabitants were still further excited. It was not until they had received those depositions that they entertained the design of arresting the leaders of the multitude which was then collecting before them. A warrant was then prepared for their arrest s and put into hands of Nadin, the constable. Mr. Hulton stated that Nadin toll him that it would be impossible to execute it without the ; assistance of a military force. The consequence was, that he • ordered a . military force to approach the house where the Magistrates were sitting. The Man chester Yeomanry were the first troops that came, , and they drew up under Mr. Buxton's windows. Mr. i Hulton stated that he never gave them orders to ri,ie into - the Meeting and attack the multitude. He (Mr.; Scarlett) was not able to give any satisfactory infor mation to the House how it happened that the Yea- manry did ride into that Meeting.' He had, how ever, been given to understand that they had done so upon the representation of one of the constable=. Mr. Hulton declared that he knew nothing at all of their advance until he saw them engaged pell-mell with the multitude. They must have advanced, as it ap peared to him (Mr. Scarlett), with considerable ala crity ; inasmuch as they rode over one of their own constables in their course. When they arrived at the hustings, Mr. Hulton thought, from their appearance, the multitude had obtained an advantage over them. At the very moment that Mr. Hulton was labouring under this impression, Col Oriel L'Estrange came up with a body of cavalry' to Mr. Buxton's, and formed them in the same place in which the Manchester Yeo manry had been formed. Colonel L'Estrange then' said to Mr. Hulton, who was standing at the window, " What orders have you 'for us ?" Mr. Fiulton then answered, " Good Goo! Sir, how can you ask such a question ? Do you not see that they are defeating the Yeomanry ?" Colonel L'Estrange took that an swer, as in point of fact it was, for an order that he should advance to the rescue of the Yeomanry. That statement, it was necessary fur him to premise, was the statement of Mr. Hulton. He should now beg leave to trouble the House with his own opinion of what were the real facts of the case. if Gentlemen would take the trouble of looking at the trial, they would find that two Reporters were examined at it— one of the name of Orton, the other of the name of Tya , ,, both young men of education and of consider able talent. The former was called in behalf of the prosecution, and the latter in behalf of the defence ; but the evidence of both he conceived to be important to the prosecution. Mr. Tyas, upon his examination, proved on oath all that he had previously written ; and it was only fair to state, that his account was corroborated in al its leading facts by the evidence of bath parties. It appeared, then, from Mr. Tyas's statement, that the Manchester Yeomanry had rode into the multitude, for the purpose of arresting the individuals who were the leaders of it. When they had ridden up to the Hustings, they formed around them, and the Officer of the Cavalry then went up to Mr. Hunt, and said to him—" Sir, I have a war rant against you, and arrest you as my prisoner ;' or, in other words, called upon him to surrender.— Mr. Hunt then said that he would surrender himself to any civil officer who would shew him his warrant. After that, Nadin came up and said that he would arrest him, as he had got information upon oath against him ; upon which Mr. Hunt surrendered. A person of the name of Saxton was standing in the cart. Two of the Yeomanry rode up to him. " There , said one of them, " is that rogue Saxton—do you run him through the body." " No," replied the other, " I had rather not—l leave it to you." The man imme diately made a blow at Saxton, and it was only by his slipping aside that the blow missed him. After that had happened, Mr. Tyas said that something like a cry of "Look at their flags—have at their banners," was raised by the Yeomanry, and that then they dashed at the flags which were on the hustings. That was the moment at which Mr. Hulton observed them riding into the crowd, and conceived them to be in danger! Had the Yeomanry stopped after they had taken the flags, he was disposed to think that no great mischief would have been done; but instead of doing so, they then began to attack the multitude. This he. believed to be the real state of the facts ; and it was only due to candour and justice to say, that according to this account of the transaction no cen sure could justly attach to the Magistrates—(Cheers). If they had acted under a sense of duty created by an impression of alarm, their error was venial. The House ought to judge of the conduct of the Magis trates, not by the considetations which suggested themselves after the event, but by the considerations which suggested themselves to their minds at the moment. They ought to judge of them by the feelings which must have been foremost on the minds of the Magistrates at the instant, and by the apprehensions which they had reason to suppose ex isted in the minds of the inhabitants of Manchester. A Meeting so numerous as that was, naturally ex ' cited fears in their minds; and they might naturally think that the best mode of getting rid of those fears would be by arresting the leaders of The multitude, before the multitude had become warned by their seditious harangues. . If the act were to do over again, he should certainly advise the Magistrates, under all the circumstances of the case, not to du it; but it would be hard to say that they ought now to be cen sured for having done it—(C/seers).—The Learned Gentleman then proceeded to state his opinion, that the most unfit body to disperse that Meeting was that respectable body, (for so he must still call them) the Yeomanry of Manchester—(Hear,icar).—That town, in point of population, was the second in England, and was as much attached to the Government as any town in the kingdom. The lower classes in that town and the neighbourhood did not agree in political opi nion with the great mass of the richer inhabitants indeed, a bitter spirit of hostility existed between them. The Yeomanry of Manchester, who did not consist of farmers, as in other parts of the country, but of individuals engaged in various branches of trade, felt considerable resentment and indignation against those who advocated the principles of Re form, which they themselves conceived to be de struitive of, instead of necessary to, the Constitutioo.i On that fatal day, the 16th of August, their feelings were embittered by the circumstances which had at tended a former Meeting, and received still further aggravation from the resentment which they felt at the attempt made, as they conceived, to dictate to the town, through the means of an immense multi tude, by a person totally unconnected with it. The multitude, however, ought not to have been dispersed ;it all in the manner it was dispersed. The Yeon,ianry had no right to act at all without the authority of the Magistracy. They might think it to be their duty to ride into the multitude without orders ; but, in his opinion, it was clearly a misconception of duty. The Learned Gentleman then remarked, that in the course of the trial it had become important to discover whe. ther any attempt had been made to serve the warrant without the assistance of the Military. The Learned Judge asked again and again, whether any,applica tion, either personal or by proclamation, was made to the crowd to get out of the way in order that a warrant might be served by the Civil Power? and the answer which he invariably received was ." No." —(Lond cheers from the Oppositioni.—When the Con stables advanced, they w eie met, some said, by cheers of welcome ; others, by cheers of defiance. The cheers, perhaps, were a mixture of both. " Why should they not cheer ?" said the Learned Judge. : — " Is any Counsel bold enough to say that they had not a tight to resist, if a pared of soldiers rode in opon them without a warrant ?"—(Loud cheering).— He must confess that lie was not the Counsel bold enough to say so; on the contrary, he said that they had a tight to resist-. if they were rode ih upon with out a warrant—( Cheers . / ram the Opposition).—Until the moment that hunt asked for the warrant and Nadin produced it, they had no right to disperse the Meeting. The reasons which he had stated he con ceived to be such as called upon the House to insti tute an inquiry ; but, besides them, there was another reason not less cogent, namely, the necessity of pre venting the ,recurrence of a similar scene upon any future occasion —(Hear). —The Learned Gentleman • then said, in referring to Lord Sidmouth's famous letter of thanks to the Magistrates, that it shewed unfit precipitation on the part of Government, and frankly confessed that, viewing it as he did, .totally divested of all party feeling, he conceived it calcu lated to produce the most universal irritation in the country—Weary—His Hon. Friend, the Member for Westminster, had been prosecuted for the letter which he wrote regarding it, on the ground that his letter was calculated to prejudice the trial then pend ing. Might not the letter of Lord Sidmouth have been prosecuted upon exactly the same grounds, re turning, as it did, most unqualified thanks to the Magistrates within two days after intelligence had been received of a transaction, of which, accord ing to the Noble Marquis, the very recital made the heart bleed !—(Loud and repeated cheering).— lie thought that every Magistrate in the county of Lancaster, and that even the Gentlemen of the Grand Jury itself, must have been influenced by that letter, as the thanks which it contained rendered the question completely a Ministerial one--(Cheers).—Mr. Scar lett, after some further observations on the same sub- • ject, in order to shew tne political hostility which existed at Manchester about the 16th of August, al luded to a fact which occurred on the cross-examina tion of Murray, one of the witnesses examined at York. The witness was asked whether he had ever said, that " rather than see Reformers triumph, he would prefer to walk up to his knees in their blood?" ,fle refused giving a direct answer to the question; but he said upon oath that he would not believe any Reformer upon his oath—(Hear, hear). — A similar feeling might have existed in the breasts of some Members of the Grand Jury, and might have led them to reject Bills which were presented to them upon di:: oaths of Reformers—(Hear, hear, and cries of " No"). It was said by Gentlemen on the other side, that no attempt had been made to bring this question to trial before the usual tribunals of the country. Surely those Gentlemen had forgotten *that Bills of Indictment had been offered to Grand Juries, but rejected, and Informations asked for against Magistrates, but refused—(Hear, hear). — But then it was said that no action had been brought to recover damages for the injuries which had been sustained ; and that that was one way of trying this great constitutional question. If it was, it was in formation toilim ; for he did not see how a question of that importance could be settled by a civil action --(Cheers). How could an old woman of 82, for in stance, bring an action of damages for a wound which she had received from a Yeoman whose person she could not recognise ?—(Cheers). On a former occa sion when this question had been discussed in the House, it had been said—" Whilst a prosecution is depending the House must not interfere." On that occasion he had said, that he knew of no question then before the Courts, which would bring to, trial the conduct of the military and the magistracy to the people. The trial at York had proved that lie was correct. That argument, therefore, such as it was, could now no longer be used. The question then was reduced to this point—was the time too late for the House to interfere? Did the Noble Lord mean to say that if the Constitution were violated, time should make the people of England sleep over the injury which they had received ? He should, indeed, think ill of the people of England—he should, in deed, consider them unworthy of the liberty which they enjoyed, if a short year and a half could make them forget those wrongs which, according to the Noble Lord, made the heart of those who had only read them bleed to the inmost core! —(Loud cheers). The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the speech of his Honourable Friend, made as it was in the ut most spirit of candour, would-have proved to him, if other proof had been wanting, the necessity of giv ing a negative to the present Motion. It released two parties, the Magistrates and the Ministers, from the blame which the Honourable Member for West minster had so lavishly cast upon them—(" No, no,!" from Sir Francis Burdett).—l lis Honourable Friend, the Member for Nottingham (Mr. Denman), who had attributed to the Government the instigation of what he called these atrocities, had received from his Ho• nourable and Learned Friend a complete contradic tion on that' point, and, independently of the letter of Mr. Norris on the evening before the Meeting, and the declaration of Mr. Holton on the trial, his Learned Friend (Mr. Scarlett) had proved that the Magistrates were not entitled to take any share of the blame im puted to them—(Cheers). —The question then became reduced to this point, whether they should institute an inquiry at the bar of the Ilouse into the conduct of the Yeomanry ? Ile was of opinion that they ought not, as the question might be discussed before the ordinary Tribunals. the was quite surprised to hear his Learned Friend state that great constitutional questions could not be tried by action. Did his Learned Friend recollect how the questions of Ship money and General Warrants were decided? They were decided by actions at law—( Loud cheering).— He was likewise surprised at another position of his Learned Friend, who had almost asserted that, to have bills thrown out by Grand Juries, and Coroner's Inquests not bringing in a verdict of murder, were