Star. — London, England, 1831-03-19 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PAI4LIAMENT. HOUR oF LORDS, Mawcit lA. The Duke of WELLINGTON imitented a petition from Newcastle tinder Lyoe, against the bill for rdorm in parliament. Petitions for the bill were presented by the Earl of Radnor, from ltristelturch,Middlesex. and the T•de of Tharet. _ _ L o p . ' 0011'1?11. presented a petition from Stafford, for reform. LordliMiltli.l Al mid, he had a petition to present from the im port•tnt al.d ! , opulous parish of :gat y-la.bonne. in support of the reform bill. Tie pew inner% Pali), they had observed with satisfaction that the sacrifices called for by the times had been cheerfully made by some of the numbers of that noble house. Poitions to the twine effect were presented from Horsham, and a' ' parish in Cumberland. The Duke of NORFOLK presented several petitions from parts of Cculand, Ireland. and Scotland, all expressing their satisfaction with the measure for Reform in the other House of Parliament. 'lie Duke of ARGYLE presented several petitions from the Kelp burner. in the Hebrides against the repeal of the Emilia duties. The Duke of D EVONSH I It E presented petitions for Parliamentary &form from the Corporation of Derby, and from Chester. Tne I.ORD CH A NCELIAMI said he had the honour to present the petition of 390 practising banisters, members of the English ba-. in favour of the cause of Reform. It would have been signed more nor-rrott.ly, but for the absence of some on the circuits. In the two bego.t namely the Northern and Western circuits, all hail signed. Forty had signed in one and thirty-six in the other. The petition came from a body of men entertaining various opinions, and he hardly ever remembered any thing like the unanimity which hail prevailed among them upon this question of Reform in Parliament. The noble and learned lord al.o presented petitions ro the same effect from twenty-nine place., including the Kingston-upon-Hull petition, signed by seven thousand persons ; and that of the inhabitants of Huddersfield, signed by 7,500. The Lord Chancellor said he had 147 petitions for reform entrusted to him, and it was not possible to do more than read the same sht•ttly. By dwelling on the merits of each he should consume the whole of their time, and thereby stop the progress of other public busi. res.. Ile had seventeen more to present that day. but was compelled to postpone the same to Monday. The Marquis of LANSDOW NE said, he also had so many petitions to present in favour of Reform, that hr should be compelled to follow the example of the noble and learned lord, read the same shortly. The first was from Wilts, signed by 13,000. The noble marquis likewise promoted the petition of the inhabitants of St. Mary, Whitechapd, In favour of the Reform Bill. TITHES. Lord KING, having presented a petition from the parish of Clerken. well. for repeal of the assessed taxes, said he had several more petitions to present against tithes. (Hear, hear.) He had lately abstained from making any remarks or the subject, in the hope that thechurch wool , ' do something to satisfy the complaints of the tithe-payers ; but the other night when a bill was brought in by r friend of the church (the Lord Chief Justice), to take away some of their privileges, ex. tending to moduses, an objection was made by the most Reverend Prelate against it. It was said the Bill, instead of•paasing into a law, should remain dormant sixty years, and thereby operate as a notice to the Clergy. The Noble Lord was not sure the church property would last sixty years, and certainly if the Bill was not to come into ope ration for sixty years, they might as well throw it into the river for the good it would he to the people. It appeared by the opposition to the 11111, that when a reasonable proposition was made, the Church rejected it. The Bishop of LINCOLN rose to order, and observed, that the reverend prelate, alluded to by the noble lord, was not in his place, to correct what the noble lord had said. The Bishop of Lincoln eon. sidered the allusion to what fell from the moat reverend prelate quite incorrect. Lord KING explained. SUBLZTTING ACT. Lord MELBOURNE rose in consequence of an intimation given on a former day to lay on the table a bill to repeal an act made in the seventh year of George the Fourth, intitled an Act to amend the law of Ireland relative to subletting. As this was a subject of great im portance to the sister kingdom, it was necessary to say a few words in explanation of the measure. The noble lord then entered into the prin ciple of the existing subletting act, and observed that it had been found seriously defective. It had been injurious in its operation. A con struction had been put upon it, by which it had been held to have a re trospective effect ; and, in consequence of a waiver of leases, many per. sons had been turned out of possession by their landlords. They bad found It expedient to get rid of the existing act in tow, and to take care, in the bill he then introduced, that all proceedings under it should be prospective. In future, all leases were to be considered as standing upon the rules of common law. The noble viscoant then concluded by moving for leave to bring in the bill. Lord CARBKRY expressed himself satisfied with the proposed measure ; he should be happy to give the noble viscount any assistance in his (Lord Carbery's) power to render the measure as complete in its details as possible. The Earl of WICKLOW said he was sorry he could not agree with the noble lord (Carbery) who had just spoken. It was not usual in the first stage of the bill to tender any opposition to it. He conceived it proper to intimate, however, to the noble mover. that he (Earl Wicklow) should deem it to be his duty to oppose the bill in all its subsequent stages. Lord FARNHAM was of opinion that it would be much better to repeal the subletting act altogether than to substitute the present measure in its stead ; that measure should have his decided opposition. After a few words in explanation from Viscount lIELBOURNR and the Earl of WICKLOW, leave was given to bring in the bill, which was read a first time. The bills on their lordships' table were severally forwarded a stage and the house adjourned at a Quarter to Seven o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. There being &ballot for a Committee to try the merits of the petition complaining of the undue return of .Ir. IiwART for Liverpool, the gallery was not opened till after five o'clock. Mr. BROWNE presented a petition from a parish in Mayo against the continuance of the grant to the Kildare•street Society. DECCAN PRIZE MONEY. Col. SIBTHORI' asked when the prize money on account of Deccan would be decided ? He regretted to say that many persons were kept in a state of suspenae in conacquenee of the uncertainty on the subject. Lord A LTHORP replied that the only remaining question on that subject was referred to the Solicitor-General, who had not been engaged in the cause on either side, and as soon u that was obtained the distribu tion would take place. DI3TRESS..--111ELAND. Mr. D. BROWNE presented petitions from Moyle and other places in the county of Mayo, complaining of the extensive distress in Reels. Theme distresses had reached a most frightful height. The people did not ask for ntor.ey in relief without giving value in return ; they only asked for employment ; and he was confident an outlay of public money in public works would greatly relieve the public distress and would be repaid. Mr. J. SMITH supported the petition, and said that he had letters from Ireland, which confirmed the facts, and maintained that the poor lsws only would relieve Ireland. Mr. GRATTAN thought the time was come for the establishment of poor laws in Ireland. Mr. LRADER said, as an Irish Gentleman he was overwhelmed with shame at the constant call on British sympathy. He hoped that some permar.ent measure would be establi►hed to relieve the poor of Ireland. Mr G. DAWSON thought that grand juries ought to be allowed to raise money for public works. Mt. O'CONNELL declared that in this part of Ireland famine was waking frightful progrtsa. There was no country in the world that pro d 'Aced so large a quantity of the necessaries of life, and yet cape. kiic,rd so much distress, snit where the people so badly subsisted. Lord A LTHORP said that the distress of Ireland had attracted the serious attention of Government, but there was nothing that had occurred which it was more difficult for the Government to decide upon, or interfere in. It was, however, still the most serious con sideration of the Government. (Hear, hear.) If it should be found to be possible to grant the relief required, the Government would be happy to concede it. Mr. HODGES considered that Ireland could only be permanently relieved by poor laws. (Hear.) Sir M. ii . RIDLEY hoped that the time was near when poor laws w itiki be introduced into Ireland. (Beat.) A:r. BENNET cor.tended, that it was only by Poor Laws that absentees could be made to contribute in some degree to the due voriiitenance of the establishments of their country, and to the relief of the toot. Mr. RUTHVEN considered that Poor Laws must be ests- Wished in Ireland, fur the preservation of the lives of tbe poor.— (Hear, hear.) Mr. SADLER observed, how constantly recurring was the distress of Ire:hind, and maintained that the difficulty could only be relieved or remedied by a regular provision for the poor. Mr. HUME complained, that the time was occupied with dis cussions about Poor Laws for Ireland, when from five till seven o'clock had been set apart for the receiving of Reform petitions.— lie hoped they would forthwith proceed to receive such petitioos.— ( Hear.) Petitions received, and ordered to lie on the table. Sir R BATESON presented a petition front Derry, complaining of the tolls of their bridge having been misapplied. Mr. HODGES presented petitions from Deptford, Greenwich, and Woolwich, Woodchurch, &e. in Kent, in favour of the Bliniste rid plan of Reform. (Hear. Ordered to lie on the table. Alf. H. HOPE presented a petition from East Looe, in the county of Cornwall, against the Ministerial plan of Reform. Mr. C. BUTLER 'thee presented two petitioos Nom places in Yorkshire, in favour of the Ministerial plan of Reform. (Hear, hear.) I TAXES ON NEWSPAPERS. Mr. C. BULLER presented a petition from Coventry for the en. tire abolition of taxes on knowledge—namely, on newspapers and ad vertisements. If the subject were brought forward to night—he under stood it was not likely to be moved this evening. He should persevere in his motion to move a further reduction of the newspaper stamp and advertisement duties than was to be proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He trusted that the Government would well reflect on this measure before it was brought forward. Mr. HUNT said he bad several petitions on this subject to present ; but be had not got them with him, because he had understood that the evening previously to public business was to be devoted to receiving petitions respecting Reform. When the hon. member's (Mr. Huller's) proposition was brought forward he should support it. Petition ordered to lie on the table. Mr. FRF.SHFIELD presented a petition from the borough of Penryn, complaining of a former petition that had been presented to the honourable house, which it was alleged had been got up in an im proper manner, and that It had been unduly signed. Lord A LTHOKP explained that the petition complained of had, been presented by mistake on account of its having been mixed in bundle of other petitions. Mr. HUNT said that all this arose from the manner in which peti tions were presented in the house; there was no time allowed either for reading or explaining their contents. High treason might be put into the bag without the knowledge of the house. Mr. HU MR moved that when the house adjourned it should meet to-morrow (this day) at twelve o'clock. The SPEA JERK suggested that if such was the ease that the house should not confine itself to receiving one p ar ti cu l ar description of petitions, but it should receive petitions generally. After some conversation the motion was agreed to. The house resolved itself into a Committee on the Sugar Duty bill. The Colonial bill also passed through a committee, in the course of which a long conversati o n took plac e on the w ord " temporary" being introduced into a resolution that applied to duties on goods im ported into the West Indies. iHr. POULET THOMPSON defended the insertion of the word. on account of its being contemplated that the duties should be reduced in 1834 Mr. ROBINSON contended that the resolution should make the duty as if permanent, as it was in the power of the house afterwards to revise the law and to reduce the duty. He said, that et the proper time he would divide the house upon the question. Mr. P. THOMSON gave a long explanation, in which he insisted that the course proposed to be adopted was the fairest for the parties concerned, as it made the law understood, that a change would certainly take place at the period named, and consequently that those interested . in the trade could make their arrangements acceordingly. Mr. K. DOUGLAS said a few words, expressing his disapprobation of the word being suffered to remain in the resolution. Mr. M. FITZGERALD took the same side, and said that he was favourable to the protecting duties on the colonial importations being made permanent. After a few words from Mr. S. RICE and Mr. FITZGERALD, Mr. GOULBURN objected to the fixing the duration of a tax. Lord ALTHORP said, that the fixing of it would not act as a bar to any change which it might please Parliament subsequently to make. After an amendment from Mr. ROBINSON, that the word " tem porary" be left out, which, after eliciting a few observations, was with. drawn, and another from Mr. HU ME, that " the protecting duties cease on the first of January, 1834," which was negatived without a division, the clause was agreed to. The house resumed, and the report of the committee was ordered to be received on Monday next.. SILK DVTITS. Mr. P. THOMSON, in answer;;;question from an hon. mem ber, said there wu no intention to alter the regulations as to the im port of silk manufactured goods. CUSTOMS ACTS-TIMBER DUTIES. The House then resolved itself into a Committee on the Customs' Acts. Sir A. GRANT in the Chair. Lord A LTHO RP said, that in proposing the timber duties, he had in view a large increase of revenue, without additional pressure on the people, and with ultimate benefit to the timber trade. He knew the power of the shipping interest, increased, as it was, by the union with which they usually acted on such occasions as the present ; but, confident of the beneficial effect of his measure, he had been prepared to meet their opposition. It could not be said that their property was destroyed if diverted into another channel. The effect of the present drawback on timber was to compel the consumer to use an inferior ar ticle ; or if he wished a better article, to raise the price artificially against him, entirely for the sake of one class. That the North Ame rican timber was an inferior article, did not require any argument; it was unfit for a great number of purposes. Being much less lasting than the Baltic timber, it had been excluded from the dock yards.— The red pine of Canada was said to be nearly equal to the Baltic timber ; but its price was about fifty per cent. greater than that of the latter. The present system was often a protection for the United States ; Norway was a sterile country, and could produ ce nothing to give in return for our manufactures but timber. was a fertile, country capable of a variety of productions, and yet we were to take from them an inferior timber. He felt that it was desirable that nothing should be dose to injure the shipping interest, but was not prepared to say that every other interest should be sacrificed to it. (Hear, hear.) To put the house in possession of the whole question it would be neces. nary to state the present prospect of the revenue. Comparing the amount of the Custom dutiis for the two months that were passed this year, with the receipt for the first two months of last year, there was an increase of 176,8021. which would give an increase on the year, should the proportion continue the same, of 1,060,8121. But, although he thought it probable that the increase should continue in the same proportion throughout the year, yet he thought it would be prudent in calculation to take it at two-thirds, which would be 717,2081. which, in addition to the amount of Customs last year, would make the 'mount of Custom duties, for the present year, 18,250 0001. from this should be deducted the duty on coals and slates repealed, 700,0001. leaving 17,550,0001. to which should be added the duty on steam-boats, which he calculated at 75.0001. duty on raw cotton •550,0001. increased duty on ex port goods 100,0001. increase of duty from the alteration in wine duties 150,0001. making the total amount of custom duties for the year 18,125,0001. He thought he was justi fi ed in estimating the produce of the year by the produce of the two first months, because the same thing had been done by Lord Goderich when Chancellor of the Ex chequer, and found to answer well. (Hear, hear,) The excise duty for the year calculated in the same manner, and allowing for the repeal of the duty on printed calicoes and candles, and the stamp duties, post-office duties, and other taxes, would leave a total re venue of 47,685,0001. which he thought might he fairly calculated on, as all our manufactures and trades were proceeding in such a steady manner that he saw no reason to apprehend any falling off. This would lame a surplus fur the present year of 685,0001. Next year, as there would be no drawback on printed calicoes, for which be allowed 600,0001. this year, and as the linen bounty, amounting to 100,0001. would cease, this with the duty on cotton and increase on the wine duty for the whole of the year he calculated would leave • surplus of 1,135,0001. With this prospect of increased revenue he thought an alteration m.ght be made in the proposition he first stated to the Clouse respecting the timber duties. lie proposed not to in. crease the duty on Canadian timber, but to make a gradual reduction in the duty on Baltic timber. (Hear, hear.) This reduction of duty on Baltic timber was a most important treasure of policy. The objec tions made to it were twofold—one applied to the shipping interest, the other to the colonies. With respect to the shipping interest of this country he felt, that as a maritime power it deserved very great protec. tion, but he also felt that we were not justified in sacrificing to it every other interest of the country. If it must suffer by the change, it should be done gradually, and it would suffer the less as the price of timber would be reduced. The shipping interest must ever depend on the commerce of the country, and that must be benefited by a reduction in the duties on timber. It must be advantageous to the commerce of the country to open the timber trade with the Baltic. (Hear.) The second objection made to the proposed alteration was the effect on the Colonies. No doubt the capital in Canada, which was fixed in the timber trade, such as that expended on saw-mills, must suffer ; but the whole capital employed in the timber trade in that country was not of large amount, and the greater part of it could be readily transferred to agriculture. It was said it would interfere with the employment of emigrants to Canada; but the fact was that emigrants were not much employed in the timber trade, because they were not so expert as the Canadians in the use of the axe ; and they were only employed in moving timber. It was a defect in the legislation for Canada that had caused capital to be applied to the tim ber trade, rather than to apiculture, and by a change in that legislation, capital would be directed to its natural employment, and t h e em i grates would be all employed in that pursuit, and, according t o all evidence, such a change in the employment of capital would be beneficial to the Canadians. The case was different with respect to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick ; the soil there, was less ferule than in Canada, and the timber trade was, in consequence, of more importance to them ; and if the effect of the alteration was to be the total destruction of the timber trade, no doubt they would suffer; but that would not, by any means, be the case. For many uses in this country their timber was preferred to any other—it was soft and easily worked. Their yellow pine was better than that of Canada, and would be less affected by the reduction of price in the Baltic timber. He should now state the proposition he had to submit to the eommittee. At present the duty on Baltic timber is His. a load ; on Canada timber 20s; deals from the Beide of sixteen feet long, paid a duty of I9L a hundred; if twenty feet long, a duty of 221. a hundred. This duty, co the average, amounted to no more than 455. a load on timber when sawed into deals. To avoid any sudden alteration, it was his intention to propose that the existing duties should continue unchanged to the Ist of Jan uary next. (Hear.) He should propose that the duty on Baltic timber be I then reduced six shillings a load till the Ist of January. 1833 : to be then further r.tlueed six shillings a load to the Ist of January, 1834 ; from thence to be reduced three shillings more, making a re duction from the present duty of 15s. a load, that is reducing the duty on Baltic From timber from 551. to 401. With respect to dealt, he would take a scale beginning at twelve feet long by eleven inches wide, and three inches in thickness, the duty to advance for every two feet in length. The duty on deals, estimated according to tee quantity in • load of timber, should be for the fleet period 49., for the second period 43a, and for the third period 4lht : no alteration in the duty on Canada dads. The noble lord concluded by moving, that in lieu of the duties at present payable on timber imported from countries in Europe, there be payable, from the Ist of January, 1832, to the Ist of January, 1833, 21. tht. per load ; from the Ist of January, 1833, to the Ist of January, 1834, 21. 3s ; and after the Ist of January, 1834, 21. Mr. WARBURTON asked, did the duty on deals diminish as they decreased in length, in the game proportion as it increased with the in crease of length ? Lord ALTHORP replied, that it diminished in a greater proportion , as they were less valuable. Mr. ATT WOOD said, the measure now did not differ in principle from the first proposition of the nobTell ied , as, like that, it took away the protection ftom timber of British growth. (Hear. hear.) He had given Government credit for candour, but he thought it was not consistent with candour to propose such a measure of which the house was kept ignorant to that very moment. He did not agree with the noble lord in the opinion that capital would be trans ferted with such facility from one employment to another. The noble lord admitted that there were other interests than revenue to be con sulted —it was a question of rights and policy. The honourable mem. ber for Brklport (Mr. Warburton) had said that the colonies had no claim of right to protection, but all the acts rests cting the Canada tim. ber trade proved that it was under a protection as sacred as national faith could give. (Hear.) It appeared by a report of a committee of the house that the timbir trade of Canada was established by protections in the years 1909 and 1810—it was then no question of revenue or of timber, dear orcheap. It was known when the duties were laid on the Heide timber that we should pay a high price for the Canada timber— but the object was the protection of the colony. A committee of the house in 1821 stated, that the intercourse with the northern states of Europe might be interrupted, which might become the caused serious political inconvenience. On the faith of Acts of Parliament parsed with this feeling, British merchants had invested their capital, and that protection should be held sacred. The danger was now passed, but then came the question. You no longer fear danger ; but are you to sacrifice the men who secured you? British merchants, on the faith of Acts of Parliament, had invested the capital in the recesses of Cana dian forests, and were entitled to protection or compensation. They , should not he sacrificed to the interests of Russia. All these persons • ' had vested their capital in dependance on national faith, and were entl.l tied to its protection. No measures of an unjust polity could be car., vied into effect without bringing with them certain evils, though they might be distant. There was no wisdom in injustice. The tnessures proposed by his Majesty's Ministers were not calculated to a ppase discontent ; they appalled the moderate, and only tended to render the violent more violent. The whole of the productive classes of the coon try had been sacrificed in succession, and a revolution had, in conse quence, taken place in property, which threatened a revolution in go. vestment. Political economists all argued that capital should only be employed in the 111101 W productive manner ; this they derived from their master, Adam Smith : but it was not possible to change the employ. ment of capital without producing distress. The labourer in one branch of industry would be destroyed by e change to any other. If the pro tection enjoyed by Canada was taken away, the whole of our colonial protection might be taken away in succession. If it were admitted that the system of protection was had, and that it was desirable it should be abolished, yet such a change must be productive of much suffering, and the question now was, is this a period at which such a change should be made ? If the house were agreed to abolish protection, the next step would be to seek for a time for such a great experiment. when there was tranquillity abroad and prosperity at home. If a new channel were now opened it might be closed by political events in a month, and we might he driven back to that we had abandoned (hear). The political economist thought they possessed exclusive knowledge, though they only knew what was known to every member of the house with the important addition of the danger of change. (Hear.) He lamented to see Ministers holding their responsible situation at a time when half Europe was in flames, content to shut their eyes to all danger, and employ themselves in trying experiments on untried theories. He thought the question of such importance, that as the Noble Lord had made no alteration in the principle he should take the sense of the house on it. (Hear.) Mr. P. THOMSON said he should be sorry to see any Govern. went place the question exclusively on two interests, as the hon. gentle. man had done. The hon. gentleman only considered the interest of the colonies and the ship-owners. The government added to these the interest of the consumer, and took into view the whole interest of the country. Parliament had a right to alter any duty for the benefit of the country. So far from Canada being promised a continuance of the same protection, Committees of Parliament declared that no such expectation was ever held out. (Hear, hear.) Lord Bathurst, in moving the Timber Duties Bill, in the House of Lords expressly stated that the duties would be open to revision. He agreed with the hon. gentleman, there was a pledge given, but it was a pledge to the country. The House of Lards was not composed of political eco nomists; these new ideas travelled slowly enough to satisfy the hon. gentleman, yet a committee of the house,in 1820, had only recom mended a protection amounting to about hat half the proposed alters. Lion would reduce the present protection to in 1834. (Hear, hear.) The present state of the duty was highly injurious to the labour of this country. Deals, by the present regulation, were brought in, in preference to gross timber. The honourable gentleman said the present measure would be, to raise Russia at the expense of other countries but the parties interested in the Russia trade say their interests would be injured by the measure. The protection to the Colonies Would not be removed, it would only be moderated. When the subject was under consideration before, it was stated that if the proportion of duties was altered, the C anada trade would be destroyed 1 but the result was the very reverse. (Hear.) In 1817, the amount of timber imported from North America was 170,000 loads ; and in 1829, it advanced to 518,000 loads. (Hear.) The has. member for Bristol said the number or ships employed in the Canada trade was 1,600, and 20,000 seamen; but this statement was founded on all the voy ages made, which was 1314 in the year, and taking off what was employed in other trade than timber, the number left was 800 ships and 9000 men. (Hear, Hear, hear.) When the whole of the present system was made known, it would surprise many that such a preposterous system could have continued. (Hear.) A paper was on the table of the house which &hewed that the difference of duty paid on Baltic timber, and what would be paid on the same if imported from Canada, amounted since 1810 to 20,000,0001. In 1825. it was 1,29(1,0001. in 1826, 1,409,0001. and last year 1348,0001. making in six years a loss to the country of 7,431,0001. By another calculation it appeared that the difference in 1829, wis 1,202,0001. The right hon. gent. went on to whew that no disadvantage could by possibility arise from the proposed measures of his Majesty's Ministers; nay, that it would be better to keep the ships Railing about the Atlantic thantdoing nothing. He might also observe, that onahalf of the shipping to be displaced might be bought by Government. These, he under stood, might be purchased at the rate of 20001. each, making a total of 1,600,0001. a sum about equal to one and a half year's loss by the present mode. He made these observations mere on the principle of compensation. (Hear.) Further still, he conten ded it would be better for the interests of the country, were Government to buy the whole timber imported from the coast of Canada and burn it, than adopt the principle suggested by the opponents of the proposed measure ; for by that means there would be 90,0001. less to pay. He was satisfied by the adoption of the gradual and moderate measures recommended by the Government a sure and safe protection was afforded ; but what, he would ask, was the effect of that measure? It did not come into operation until the Ist of January next; the effect after that period would be not a displacing of the Baltic timber, but the reverse. An erroneous comparison had been set up between the trade carried on by English ships and foreign bottoms ; but how at cd the case ? From documents he held in his hands, it appeared that the total quan tity of deals imported in foreign ships from Sweden, Norway, Russia, and other port in 1822, amounted to 141,000, whilst during the same period the quantity brought by English ships was two hundred and nine. teen thousand, thus afibrding a convincing argument to disprove any statements made to the disadvantage of the English shipping trade; again, in 1823, the tonnage of English. compared to foreign ships, was as three fifths to two-fifths ; and in 1830 it was as two-fifths to three. fifths. He contended that if by the proposed measure a number of 'hips would necessarily become unemployed, these would easily be taken up in the coal trade. Another objection had been started, as to the amount of tonnage of these vessels; that he could prove ftom wheaten tary documents and the Customhouse returns, to be on an average 200 tons. He had been told that many of the ships, however, were of 400; from that statement he only ga th ered that many of the others were below 200 tons; consequently, th e average tonnage be had stated was as near correct as possible ; but to metre beyond a doubt that be was correct in the amount be had given, he had procured a return of the number of vessels trading to the port et London with coals in 1830; these were 6944, affording a toad amount 6(1,413,000 toes, confirming an average to each of 204 tons. No doubt, as he bad already hinted, there might be many larger, and many smaller, but he was justified in saying that there would be additional employment for the ships thrown out. By returns also obtained from the port of Newcastle, the average of ships there was 207 tons ; the degree of protection required by the opponents to the present measure wee therefore exorbitant and unnecessary. He would take the liberty of raiding a letter front an individual engaged in the timber trade, who was holly unknown to him, b ut no d ou b t was well known loth hon. member for Newcastle, front which town the letter was dated; , it came from the writer asking advice respecting the change proposed in the scale of duties on timber. The writer stated that it was a common practice for some traders to ship Baltic timber to the Caned= and re- I snip It from thence to Great Britain, free of the Baltic timber duty; the writer added that this course had bees adopted to a great extent by some during the peat year, although he bad never done it, notwithstanding , that oessiderable advanteos might lave be derived from it. Now he (Mr. P. Thomson) amended that the existence of such a state of things 1 wag a positive proof that the law warned nose aoseadsaist. (Hear.) i Then, with respect to the timber on the ground lonn'ed to emigran be t t i em was told that the first thing they did with it was to cut it down and prepare it for tale. Such was not the fact : not one tree out of a hundred felled by the emigrant was worth selling. A ft er adverting to the stat e of the lumber trade, the right hon. gentleman sat down amidst much cheering. Sir G. MURRAY said, It certainly was not his intention to follow the right honourable gentleman through every point of his spee c h ; he was anxious only to set the house right on one point ; it was a m it mistake to suppose that the emigrant derived advantages from the sale of his timber, as he was prohibited from cutting any quantity what was equal to the land he brought into cultivation. Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS said. it appeared to him as if the ho me had little to do when honourable members began to legislate on mes. sure which were not to come into force until after some time to com e . Mr. ROBINSON contended that there had already been tiro n inny experiments tried upon the Canada.. He far one would not consent to the infliction of another experiment ; and in resisting this experim ent he was disembarrassed of some difficulty. for the noble lord (Althory) had candidly confessed, that the revenue did not want the money. Ti,, shipping interests could not bear this experiment to he made. Be was not contending for any monopoly, for in fact no monopoly co st a And as to beneficing the consumer, let it be borne in mind that th e consumer did not ask for this benefit. (Hear, hear, bur) The shipping interests bad certainly Punted, and were suffering s e v en ', So seriously had the shipping interests suffered from the adoption of what was called the reciprocity system, that the foreign shipping had increased as the British shipping had diminished. Nor had our infer. MUM with, or exports to foreign countries increased in consequenc e e : the changes adopted in our system. On the contrary, the change had been beneficial to them without being in any way advantageous to this country. The United States had not copied our example ; and they had amongst them some men most sensible and conversant in mercantile affairs. (Loud cries of Question, question.) Mr. HENRI= said he could not but make some remarks on this most important question, for more extraordinary political trimming h e thought had never been witnessed in that house. (Cheers.) The quo. lion that had been before them, whatever might have been their expectations, formed no part of the budget. All was changed, and ap. patently within a few hours. What had occasioned it ? When all ex pected that the plan was to be persevered in, suddenly they desert e d the position which they had said they were prepared to defend; but which they well knew they could not defend. (Cheers.) He would not I give his opinion as to the duty, it was unnecessary ; but if the question now before the house went to the vote, he should oppose it. (Hear.) It was quite impossible for him to give his assent to the proposi. tion now before the house—and he thought it was as impossible for • the house to agree to it. The proposition was now brought forward not as part of the budget—but it was urged as tr.atter of policy. as im. , proved policy. It tamed out that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could do without the money which he had considered would result from the change of these duties—that he was richer than he had ima. ghsed he should be; but if the noble lord calculated in the improve ment that might have evinced itself in the customs within the last month or two, as likely to continue throughout the year, he was cake ' lasing on a very poor foundation. He trusted that at least inquiry would be promoted; but if the question were urged, he should divide against it. Mr. WARBURTON said, that on account of the lateness of the hour he should move that the chairman do quit the chair, and ask leave to sit again. (Hear, and Question.) Lord ALT HORP said, that he was astonished at the charge of politi. cal trick ; it came with very ill grace from such a quarter, especially after the hon. member for Boroughbridge had complained of the measure as being the same as the one originally proposed. As to altering the plan in some degree, what was the use of receiving deputations, if it were pre. determined to press forward tittle views, whatever additional information might be received ? In consequence of the information derived from the deputations, he was satisfied that the advantage he had originally contem plated might be accomplished if the plan were gradually carried into effect. He had therefore gladly taken advan•age of the advice received. Mr. A TTWOOD said. if the question were adjourned, it must be subjected to a long adjournment ; he should therefore move, " that the Chairman do leave the Chair." There were loud cries of "Divide. divide." The house was very full. Strangers were then excluded, but no division took place for near thtee.quariers of an hour afterwards. The debating continued, and in very elevated tones too; so much so, that the different speakers were heard in the rooms adjoining the house. At last the division took place on Mr. Attwood's amendment. The numbers were, For it 236 Against it 190 Majority against the Ministers The result was received with loud cheering by the opposition. It is a complete defeat of the measure ; because the Chairman has no report to make to the house. Mr. CAPEL presented a petition from Queenborough, praying that they may not be disfranchised. Petitions in favour of reform were presented from Bury St. Edmond's. a parish in Suffolk, and one from the county by Mr. Tyrrell. Front the county of Wilts, Stowbridge, Malmesbury, Warminster, Devizes, Hatfield, and several others by Mr. Benet. Sir C. FORBES, in remarking on some observations that had been made on a petition, reprobated the measure proposed by ministers, and he wondered that the honourable member for Westminster had not asked the ministry when they meant to resign after the division that bad just taken place. Mr C. HOBHOUSR, in answer, said he hoped that the country would not suffer itseK to be deceived and humbugged by a tricky and mean divifon ' which had been accomplished by an artifice such as had taken place. Had he entertained the same opinion of the present Minis. try, as he had of the late:Ministry, he might perhaps have put the ques tion to them • but he could now say, that if the present Ministers did resign, it w ould be the worst day the country ever saw. The hoe. Member concluded with taxing the hon. baronet with having always professed to be ready to support a measure of Reform, although he now set himself to oppose ir. Sir CHARLES FORBES, in explanation, said, that be was always in:favour of Reform, but he was opposed to revolution. (Hear, hear.) A number of petitions from other places were presented in favour of Reform, and on other matters. _ _ _ The Order of the day beirg disposed of, the house adjourned at HALT PACT MO. FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE. FRANCE. TIN NATIONAL ASSOCIATION. We have taken from she Moniteur the following circular addressed by M. Sers to the Mayors of the department of Moselle. METZ, MARCH 9.—A printed document has been cir culated throughout your department, and even posted up at Metz : it is entitled, " National Association for insur ing the Independence of the Country, and the per petual Expulsion of the eldest Branch of the Bourbons." It is probable that you will be requested to allow this pla card to be posted up in your towns, but I beg that you will refuse to do so. According to the words of the law of Dec. 10, 1830, no document, either manuscript or printed, and contain ing political news, or treating on political subjects, shall be posted or stuck up in the streets, squares, or public places. The perpetual expulsion of the eldest branch of the Bourbons is the first result of the revolution of 1830. Suppose even that those who originated the association were most anxious for attaining its objects, it would be only repeating the effects of a glorious revolution, for the preservation of which millions of National Guards have armed themselves. Upon these grounds the Association is not only unneces sary, but may become mischievous, by making the inhabi tants doubtful as to the stability of the constitutional throne, upon which the nation has placed Louis Philippe. One of the grounds is injurious to the authority of those in whew hands power has been deposited, and the placard may pro duce much evil in this way, by wresting from the Govern ment that confidence to which it was entitled, and which it wanted in order to fulfil its duties towards the country. And what moment is chosen for throwing doubt upon the vigour and loyalty of the authorities charged with the de fence of the country, in case the stranger should threaten it ? It is when the arsenals are in perfect order and activity— when the fortresses are every where being put in a fit state of repair, and whilst every one is bearing testimony to the sod and activity of the commanders and officers who have the direction of these matters ; when large purchases of horses are made every day.for the cavalry and artillery ; when every individual of you have anticipated the law upon the national guard, by enrolling yourselves in the corps of your com mune; and that 500 young man from this department cams forward voluntarily to join the last levy. All these prepara tions show that the armaments are prosecuted with the saw activity as if war were inevitable, at the same time that the declarations of the King's ministers in the Chambers do not announce it as probable. The stranger is aware (French men ought not to doubt it), that if the independence of oar fine country were menaced, a milliard of swords would instantly leap from their scabbards to defend it. Ern'