Star. — London, England, 1821-05-01 00:00:00

"MP "*. %N. ". • 116 • w PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. • N4 O HOUSINF tOMMONS, APRIL SO. TMs day, pursuant to adjournment, the House met at the usual hour. The Marquis of LOIMONDEZIT took the oaths as Member foe the Borough of Orford. Sir JAMES GRAHAM moved a new writ for a Represen tative to serve in .Parlignent for the Borough of Luggershall, in the room of Lord Carhampton, deceased.—Ordered. Mr. P. MOORE presented a Petition from the Gun and Pistol Manufacturers of Birmingham, praying that the Minis ters might be impeached for various improper proceedings, and particularly for their conduct towards the Queen.—Ordered to lie on the table. On the motion of Mr. B. WILBILA MAX, a new writ was or dered for a Representative to serve in Parliament for the County of Stirling, in the room of Sir Charles Edmondstone, deceased. Sir W. LEMON presented a Petition from the Freeholders of the County of Cornwall, in favour of the Bill for the Reco very of Small Debts.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. BALFOUR presented a Petition from the Owners and Occupiers of Land in the County of Orkney, praying for the repeal of the late Scotch Malt Tax.—Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. On the motion of Mr. R. SMITH, Mr. CANNING obtained leave of absence for six weeks. On the motion of Mr. thasoan, the second reading of the Assize of Bread Bill was postponed to Monday the 7th May. Mr. DENISON presented a Petition from the inhabitants of Godalming, in the County of Surrey, praying for a Revi sion of the Criminal Laws.—Ordered to lie on the table, and to ♦ ' . be printed. Mr. R. WILLIAMS moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Conway Bridge Bill.—The Bill was read accordingly, and ordered to be committed. The Irish Courts of Justice Bill was read a third time and passed: On the motion of Mr. Lestruzcvos, the further consideration of the Report on the Spoiled Stamps Bill was postponed till Wedneiday neat. Lord J. RUSSELL said, that understanding some anxiety was felt to know when he would bring on his motion respect ing Corrnpt Boroughs, be would certainly bring on his motion oa Wednesday, the 15th of May. Mr. C. HUTCIIINSON presented three Petitions from three individuals belonging to the Court of Common Pleas in Ireland, praying for compensation for the loss of offices. The-CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having as sented, the Petitions were received and laid on the table. Caudal DAVIES moved for Returns of the different Sums paid as gratuities to Commissioners of Customs, since the year 1784 to the present time; and of several Suma received on see count of Seizures, &c.—Ordered. Mr. HUME'rnoved for a Return of the different Establish ments of Quarantine in England, Scotland, and Ireland, with the Names of each, Places, date of Appointments, Salaries of Officers, &e. from the year 1792 to 1820. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER suggested, that part of the motion which required the production of the Names of each, should be limited to those with £lOO a-year and upwards.—Ordered. Mr. BENNETT moved for a Return of the Establishments of Commissioners for auditing the Public Accounts, the amount of Salaries, period of Appointment, &c. for Great Britain and Ireland, for the year 1820; the same for the Islands o! Ceylon and Mauritius ; the same for the West Indies ; and a Return of the Sums granted to different persons as allowances and gra tuities for services in the Colonies.—Ordered. STEAM ENGINES. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Steam Engine Fur axe Bill. Mr. Alderman WOOD said, that he had received several communications from the Proprietors of Mines in Cornwall, objecting to the Bill. They con ceived that any malevolent person might take an op; portunity to annoy his neighbours under the sanction of the measure now proposed. The Hon. Alderman then proceeded to state, that it was quite imposiible such an alteration could be made in the Steam En gines in Cornwall as the Bill required, and parties would every day be liable to vexatious prosecutions. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR contended, in reply, that the small expense of ten pounds upon each Steam Engine might remove the nuisance complained of.— There was an express provision-in the Bill to guard against malicious prosecutions. He should propose that three or four months should be allowed to per • sons to arrange their furnaces, in conformity with the enactments of the Bill. The measure was not in tended to act in any respect against the interest of -the owners of mines in Cornwafl. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday next. AUDIT OFFICE. Mr. LUSHINGTON moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of the Audit Accounts Bill. Mr. BENNETT suggested the propriety of post poning the Motion, on the grounds that sufficient evidence had not yet been laid before the Committee. Mr. LUSHINGTON said, that he had moved the second reading of the Bill merely with the view of postponing it. If the Hon. Member wished to move for any papers, he would not find obstruction from him (Mr. Lushington); on the contrary, he would afford him every facility in his power. Mr. BANKES, in reply to Mr. Bennett, contended that no material evidence had been withheld. Mr. D. GILBERT followed on the same side, and said, that the question, in the first instance, had been taken up Without any direct communication with Government, though afterwards the Committee had received some information from the Heads of Public Departments. Mr.HUME wished that the second reading should be postponed till more satisfactory information was obtained by the Committee. Sir H. PAItNELL wished that the business of the Office should be simplified as much as possible, upon the plain principle of debtor and creditor. Mr. DENMAN said, that the most important part of the business of the Session remained yet to be per formed ; and he suggested the propriety of the House taking those Bills first which were of the greatest public interest. The Hon. and Learned Member then entered into some statements, from which it appeared that for the last six years the number of Bills disposed of after Easter was 1248. and 190 before Easter.— He was decidedly opposed to this system of protract ingimportant business to a late period of the Session. He-knew it to be an unquestionable fact, that many evils, Which might otherwise have been averted, bad arisen from this system. Mr.' BENNETT and Mr. LOSHINCTON said each a 'few words, and the Bill was then ordered to be read a second; time on Tuesday, the Bth of May. SPOILED STAMPS BILL. Mr. SUMS presented a Petition from the Law SiationerS of the Metropolis against the Sp o iled Stamps Bill. They considered that the Bill would hivethe effect of creating a new Duty. He hoped, that sufficient time would be allowed, before the se cond reading took place, as the subject was one of, very great importance. Mr. SCARLETT recommended the eateasion of the operation of this measure to the eonntry.—The Petition was then brought up and read. Mr. BROUGHAM suggested, that as the ten dency of this measure was to increase the Revenue, and as it might thereby be very properly entitled a Money Bill, it would be proper, therefore, that some estimate as to the produce should be laid be fore the House. Mr. LUSHINGTON said, that the Bill was a measure merely of regulation, and that it could net deserve to be considered as one of Revenue. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that nothing had been stated against the propriety of having some estimate laid before the House as to the probable amount of, Revenue that would be raised in consequence of the Bill. Mr. LUSHINGTON said, it would be impossible to produce anything like an accurate estimate. Mr. BROUGHAM did not expect an accurate ~estimate, but such an estimate as might be reasonably expected to be realized. Mr. GRENFELL and Mr. BERNAL suggested that it would be proper to defer the Bill until the Report of the Finance Committee should be made. Mr. BRIGHT wished that a clause might be in troduced, empowering Judges to admit as evidence documents without a stamp, which ought to have been stamped, in cases where a reasonable doubt , might have existed. Mr. MABERLEY complained that a Bill, which turned out to be really a Revenue Bill, should have been introduced and pushed through so many of its stages under the title of a Spoiled Stamps Duties Bill. Mr. LUSHINGTON said that the Bill would be printed, and placed in the hands of Members. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES. On the motion for the House to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, Mr. CREEVEY rose and said, that being persuaded of the necessity of some reduction being made in the general expenditure of the country, and finding that the activity of his Honourable Friend near him had created a strong sensation in the different Public Offi ces, so much so as to call for the issuing of circular letters, to ascertain if any reductions could be made, he should feel it his duty to call upon the House to take some decisive step towards that necessary ob ject. He wished that if reduction was to take place, Government would not select the unfortunate active class, who perhaps were the most useful members of their establishment, but begin at the head. He would, therefore, propose (as all the sums which they had al ready voted would tome before them again) certain Resolutions, the object of which was to pledge the House to take into its consideration the salaries of eleven individuals, whom he thought wholly useless, and whose salaries amounted to £16,000 a-year. This was a sum which he conceived too large for the ser vices they performed, and, therefore, he was anxious that the House should now pledge itself to a reconsi deration of the votes they had already come to in this respect. The Honourable Member then moved, " Resolved, That It appears to this House from the Army Estimates of the present year, that the following provisions have been made for the annexed Offices in the Civil Depart ments of the Army, viz. in the Paymaster's Office ' £1,500 per annum to an Accountant, £1,200 to a Cashier. and £l,OOO to a Ledger-keeper. In the Office of the Secretary at War, £2,500 per annum to a Deputy Secretary at War, £1,400 to the Erst Clerk, £1,200 to a Principal Clerk, £l,OOO ditto to a Junior Clerk, and :CIAO° per annum to a Superintendant of Current Accounts. In the Comptroller of Accounts Office, £4,000 per annum to the First Comptroller, and £1,500 per annum each to two Junior Comptrollers: and that all such provisions have .been voted Ina Committee of Supply. That this House, never theless, is impressed with the deepest conviction, that in the present state of peace, and at the same time, of universal dis tress, this nation ought not, neither is it able, to provide for it.. various and extensive establishments upon the same expensive scale as formerly; and more especially that this ilouse gill take into its most serious consideration, the expediency of reducing the expenses of the Offices herein before referred to, when the Resolutions respecting the same shall he reported front the Coin mittee cf Supply." The Resolutions were then put from the Chair. Lord PALMERS'I'ON considered this the most extraordinary course that ever was taken by any Ho noarable Member. The Honourable Gentleman pre faced his motion by observing, that circulars were seat abdut for the purpose of ascertaining where re trenchment might take place; and, therefore, because Government were engaged in retrenchment, that House ought to interpose. This was the obvious comment which every man would make upon the Honourable Gentleman's statement, which, whether true or not, he would not then examine. But the Honourable Gentleman called on the House to do what? To adopt Resolutions respecting facts of which they could not by possibility have any know le Ige— a course which was contrary to all Parlia mentary proceedings. Upon what grounds did Par liament take any subject into its consideration ? Be cause of necessity that subject was not to come before them again. But for the House to pledge itself to consider that which would certainly come before it at a future time, would be only stultifying itself; and would, in fact, amount to a declaration, that it would not trust itself to consider a grave matter without previously stipurating with itself to do so. Mr. CREEVEY observed, that the Resolutions called on the House to pledge itself to a serious exa mination of the subject, not as the Noble Lord thought, at a particular time, but when that subject would regularly come before it. The fact was, that he did not think Government would make any saving; or if they did, that they would confine their measures of retrenchment to inferior clerks. His object was to compel them to retrench in the higher salaries. Mr. CHARLES LONG denied positively that there was any intention whatever on the part of Go vernment to disturb the inferior clerks in the enjoy ment of- their o ffi ces. The explanation of the Won. Member did not appear to him to have mended his case. This Resolution was certainly most irregular. Mr. BENNETT said, that the object of the mo tion was to pledge the House to do that which it had pot done before. He thought that motions of this description, which developed the character of tha- House, and which strewed the country what an un reformed House was, would be attended by benefit cial effects. Mr. HUME said, that the refusal of this motion would amount to a refusal to consider the subject of these Resolutions. Had he been consulted, he cer tainly would hive advised his Hon. Friend to defer the Resolutions until the subject regularly came be fore the Rouse; but being made, he entreated the 'House, and in particular . t 4 Noble 'Martinis oppo site, to consider, that the rejecting of this'lnottcm would have the ;post injurious effect upon the country. The Marquis of LOhMONDERRY said, that if it were necessary to enter into any observations, to shew the perfect inutility of this motion, the Hon. Gentleman who just sat down would have saved him that trouble. The Hon. Member had made it quite ' apparent,'that the House could not, with any degree of justice to its own character, assent to these Reso lutions ; and his argument was the more remarkable, as it was conveyed in the shape of a rebuke upon his Hon. Friend near him. Indeed, it appeared to him (the Noble Marquis), that the absence of a confiden tial communication did not deserve such harsh and unqualified censure. •If the House were to affirm every motion which, though admitted to be irregular and preposterous, was yet made in order, as the framers of it might think, to conciliate the minds of the country—and he would beg leave to say, that the country pretty well understood the value of the mo tions which those Gentlemen were in the habit of making—they would be placing their Journals in disgrace. He should give his vote against the Rem lutions founded upon the speech of the Honourable Gentleman. Mr. HUTCHINSON stated generally his grounds for supporting the motion. The House then divided, yid the numbers were: Ayes - - - 22 Noes 55 Majority against the Resolutions —33 The House then resolved itself into a Committee. A sum of £23,211 was agreed to for maintaining the Recruiting Establishment of the East India Com pany's Service. ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE, AT SANDIIURST. Lord PALMERSTON moved, that a sum not ex ceeding £16,91.5 10s. sd. be granted to deft ay the charge of maintaining the Royal Military College, Mr. HUNIE said he had a. strong objection to this vote. He admitted the propriety of giving education to Officers as. a principle, but he objected to the main tenance of a number of young men as candidates for 'military service who never could enter it. The ex penses of this College, for five years, amounted to £115,280. During this time there were 1764 cadets admitted. By regulation the education of each cadet was completed in four years ; and every cadet, after remaining for that interval at the College, was, of course, deemed fit to enter the service. It would be found, that out of the 1764. admitted into the Col lege for five years, the education of 451 cadets was completed, and all those, of course, should receive commissions. Instead of 451, no more than 160 cadets obtained commissions. Looking then at the expense of the establishment for five years, and the number who had been commissioned out of it, it would be found that each of the 160 cadets stood the country, during their residence at the College, at £720 10s. each per annum. What he objected to was, that the country should be burdened with pro viding for the education of a number of persons for military ser‘ ice who never could enter it. The Finance Committee, in 1817, said in their Report, that if the number of cadets upon the establishment were to be provided with commissions, all others must be ex cluded ; and, if they were not, it would be cruel to educate them for the military profession. He also objected to the grant of the expenditure for main taining the staff, which he thought much too great, for the instruction of cadets, who were in number something less than 300. The expenditure of this staff was no less than £6,457. Ile also objected to having two surgeons for this establishment, as also to four professors of fortification, six drawing-masters, and four French teachers. He objected likewise to the maintenance of five clerks and twenty-four ser vants in an establishment professing to give military education, and where the youth would be trained to undergo the inconveniences of a military life. Ile concluded by moving that the sum be reduced to £9,771, being a reduction of .£7,144. Lord PALMERSTON said, the Honourable Gen tleman (Mr. Hume) saved him the trouble of argu ing the expediency of a proper military education, as the Honourable Gentleman himself admitted it. As to the point, whether the number of Cadets was greater than could be provided for in the Service, the proper way for ascertaining whether this objec tion had any fouudation,was, by considering the num ber of those who at any one time had been examined, and not commissioned before another examination took place. This number never exceeded fourteen— (Hear, henry.—The Honourable Gentleman said, that each Cadet who obtained a commission, on an ave rage of four years, cost the Public I:720. Since the first establishment of the College, the number of Ca dets admitted was 2,528. Of these, 852 were com missioned, and 17 joined the service as volunteers; 143 voluntarily withdrew, and afterwards entered the Army, making together 1,012; 683 were edu cated for the Artillery, and 102 entered the East In dia Company's Service, in all 1,797 ; 238 remained in College, and of the 493, the difference between 2,528 and 2,035, some died, and others retired into private life, or obtained civil situations. If the Ho nourable Gentleman looked to the expenses of simi lar Establishments, (those, for instance, of the Ord nance and Navy), he would find that there was but a small difference between them. The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Hume) did not know whether the Governor was resident or not. It was rather singu lar, that a person who, upon other occasions, dis played so much industry, did not take pains to ascer tain this point. He who put himself to so much trouble to find where the good ship H3we was sta tioned, and her amount of tonnage, might, one would have thought, have made inquiry on this subject— (Hear, hear):—There was no person, even the most superficially acquainted with Sandhurst College, who did not know that the Governor constantly resided there. The expediency of having such an Officer at all, was another question. It appeared to him abso- Intel' , necessary that there should be some Officer of rank to whom the young men would naturally look up with respect. They were at that age which was most difficult of restraint—too old to be kept to their duty by the same means as children, and too young to be influenced by those motives that operated on men. The money expended would be completely thrown away without the superintendance of such an Officer. With respect to the Librarian, it shoUld h be considered, that the library contained, besides books, many valuable plans, for the care of which a proper person was necessary. The Paymaster kept all the accounts incident to the expenditure of the College, and received no more.than the Paymaster of a Regi ment, though-his labour was much greater. The ex pense of two Surgeons was not for a momencto be pbt in competition with the health of the Student:. The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Home) objected to the number of servants; but if they were and the necessary degree of cleanliness n, t kept tvi three Surgeons, in place of two, would ve:y s o on t ) ; found necessary. The Public paid no more than £5B a-year for the education of each Cadet, and this expense would gradually become less, from a reduc tion of the number of the orphan children of Officers who had fallen in the field. They only were ad mitted gratuitously, and as their number decrease the expense would decrease. Colonel DAVIES said, that he had been educated at the Military College; but he could venture to say, that the system of education there was not calculated to fit Officers for actual service. The Cadets had no access to books, and the greater part of their educa- tion was lost upon them. The junior department, , particularly, was totally unnecessary; yet this depart ment was increased, whilst the senior establishment, which was in fact the only efficient one, was greatljr diminished. He would increase this latter estabOsh ment tenfold. He complained of partiality in the chcice of the Professors of this Establishment. Re could - not approve of the mode of education in the College, and would therefore vote with his Honour able Friend. Sir LOWRIE' COLE observed, that every Gentle man who knew the gallant Officer who governed the Military College, mtvit -acknowledge the great SeN vices which he had rendered to the country—( I /ear, hcar).—lle (Sir G. Mut ray) had devoted his mind to that department, and had introduced great aad effective improvements into it. Colonel DAVIES Ai.!mitted the merits of the gallant Officer alluded to. His objection was not to the in• dividual, but to the office. Ile felt convinced that either the iovernor or Lientelinnt-lic,ueencr otTgl:t be reduced, but he did not state•whichi Sir LOWRY COLE said, that it ... was net the duty of the Governor, nor_vould it become'his stition, to enter into all t 4 mipotedetatkof the establis!imeia: It would not beome hum s for instanc e , to inquire, on every occasion, whetherone - boy was to be put into the black hole, or whether any boy should receive punishment of a different nature.. Mr. HUME remarked, that t he observation jet made by the gallant Officer (Sin L. Cole), would go to shew that Sir G. Murray was above his v.i):l— No, no !)— r lt might . not be necessary for the Governor to inquire what boy. was to be sent to the black htAe; but then, where were the Major, the Captain, and the ten or twelve Serjeants who .were employed in the establishment ? From ssh it had been said as to the necessity of keeping up so large an establishment, it would appear either that the boys were the worst disposed boys, or else that the College was the worst managed establi-brnent in existence. The Honourable Member entered into calculations to shew that the expense of this establish. ment was, in 1799, £1,189 ; in 1801 (when it fir s ( took the name of a Military College), £3,839; that since its establishment it had cost the country the sum of £300,189. The proposed reduction was, in his opinion, a very moderate one, and he lek be should desert his duty if he did not take the sensed the House upon it. Lord PALMERSTON contended that the selec tion of the various masters was made upon the fairest competition, excited by public 'advertisement. Those charged with the duty of 'election had no other object than to secure the individual best qualified. Colonel DA VI ES said, that abominable as t! is estt blishment was at present, the addition of the riding. school would make it still worse. Lord JOHN RUSSELL avowed, that he had not got rid of the early prejudice which he entertained against the practice of bringing up young men, from an early age, exclusively for the Army. That Eng lish boys should be so placed, that they were to see nothing but a soldier's uniform, or hear no sound but that of a drum or trumpet, was fit only for a Mi. litary Government. An establishment of this son ought, at least, to be confined to the orphans of % ficers in the Army. He could see no reason why the education of an Officer should differ from that der man going into any of the other professions. It WO never understood that a lawyer or a physician were taught the elements of their profession so tarly as fifteen years of age. He could see no necessity for French teachers at the Military College. There was no possible connection between the duties of an Of• ficer and a knowledge of the French tongue. He was of opinion that the whole Establishment might be safely reduced. Lord PALMERSTON contended, that the system l of education would be too narrow, if the pupils was not taught the French language. In the course of lag war, foreigners were employed in several depot mew in the Army, which our Officers, if they had bees properly educated, would be enabled to fill. With regard to the bolt intended for other professions not getting a theoretical education till the age of fit tee, the Noble Lord should recollect, that young men id. tended for the service entered the Army at a much earlier age than they did in other professions. Mr. G. BENNETT was of opinion, that the sr tem of coercion used towards these Cadets was it consistent with the liberties of Englishmen. Outs 640, the service gained but eighteen Officers air nually, at an expense of seven or eight htmdmi pounds a-year. He was sure the parents of this young men would have given them a better editor tion at a less expense. The question was, whether the country would maintain this establishment at 3 great expense. Government ought to make kat? ledge a qualification for commissions, and then parents would take pains to prepare their children fee obtaining these commissions. Colonel WOOD ridiculed the idea of education by parents superseding the Military College, for m g :__ class of the students at this College were those ww had no parents at all ; they were the children of brave men who had fallen in the service of their country!, ( Hear, hear). ! —Another class was composed of tte children of Officers now in the Army. The chi t / which these Officers had otherwise to do, would cif' tainly unfit them from paying that attention to . 1 14 . education of their children which it required. WO i r n e g garcdomniiss to knowledge 'he would being a co q n u tiv ali d, fica t ti ti o a n t f th o r bola' g ne rea m t f e o r r pdairetirof education.the sh to o u ti ln i d e ec t esk o n i riti French, because he might often be under a of carry ing on communication's With Tereigirer . gallant Colonel then read the following CAtIACt PI ._"`,~ I _ ul h In aE cl ... in 71 a tl a a