Star. — London, England, 1817-05-14 00:00:00

11 a/ANENT:eI R r PROCEEDINGS. HOUcF. OF 1.0 R D ,, MAY 13. Earl MAINVERS tnok the oath, and his sear. Bailey's ()ismer Bill pas.ed through a Committee of the It hole House; in which the clause for prohibiting the inter n arriage of , he cfPndiaig patties was expunged, on the inution tr one of their Lordships A few Bills,xhiefly of a private nr local nature, were braught up from the Commons I y Sir JAMBS GKAUAM, Mr. haoaogM, and others, and read a firs - time. The Farms ite-en•ry 811 p used through a Committee of the whale Hou.e, and was re or: ed without any amendment. The BiU was ordered to be engrossed. LAW OF LIBEL. Lord ERSKINE, adverting to their Lordships' decision of last night, respecting the motion of his Noble Friend, who had, under the greatest Law Au thorities this country could ever boast, so ably and clearly set forth what he conceived to be the true het of the land in cases of. Libel. Notwithstanding the able manner in which it was opposed in argu ment, he said that such a decision had caused no :mail uneasiness in his mind, respecting so important a branch of the Laws of the Cotintry ; the more so, as he still remained of opinims that the Quarter Ses sions had very little jurisdiction in cases of Libel-- He felt it his duty to endeavour to lose no time in bringing the subject again before toeir Lordships,— Though much as he respected the great learning and talents of his Noble and Learned Friends writ) held a contrary opinion last night, and for whom no man could have a greater respect than hiMsell; yet he would say, that if such were found to he the law, he should never rest until be had brought back the law to that state and principle in which he conceived it to have been settled by the Bill which would do im mortal honour to its author. And the Lord Mans field himself had declared to him, that he never bad a shadow of doubt as to what the law malty was ; y, t, though militating against that peat authority, which he so much respected, he was glad the Lzgis. lature of the country had evinced itself to be of a different opinion, by ado tong that ME/iIIIC towards the carrying, which it woold ever Is: his happiness laud his pride to reflect that he had in sods a degree participated. he could never subscribe to the asser- . tion advanced last night, that the cot:ntry c.Julti not be safe under• such a construction of the law; but the previous records of the country would shew diffe rently. fie should shortly bring she sulije:t regu. lady under their Lntdsiips' consideration. He had EWE yet peel axed the shape of li:s intended motion; but it would be for bringing under the view of the House, the umber of commitments, the rturob:r of recognizance's emeriti into, and the number of indict ments found and 'tied down to a certain period.— There would be no difficulty in procurirg such in formation. The subject was one upon which he felt strongly, and he tlmuglit that the Libel Act may be throe n into the fire, if the Press of England were placed at the mercy of any cominon Justice of the Peace. When the law said, that the ordeal of two Jruies must be gone through before any man can be deer eJ a libeller, what possible colour could there be to give such a jurisdiction to any one man ? When be was a young mats, he bad ventured to de digit an opinion, that he would in Isis time see [lli law set clear as to the subject el libel; and even wow that he was an old man, hew' uldagain venture to say, that he should live to see it once mote render ed clear. He observed, he should very shortly bring forward his Motion. Alter disposing of some private and routine busi ness, their Lordships adjourned till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. - - Sir HENRY PARNELL gave notice ot a nICIIiOA ler regulat lig the Oflce ot Constable in Ireland. Colonel WOOD postponed, till to-morrow, the second reading of the lull respecting the ••ale ut Game. A Petition was presented front Wigton against the Cottage Window Tas.—Ordered to lie on the table. • I.ord YARMOUTH (resented a Petition from several Towns In theCutony of •Wtruu, fur the regulation of the Butter:frade. Sir N. COLI HURST presented a Petition fur Reform front the City and County; •f Cork ; though be d.ffered trout his con stituents, and thought no reform necessary, Mr. ARKWRIUH I . presentcd a Petition from the Grower* of Hops about kyr, against the Hup bill now pending. Mr. 800 ME WILISRAH.t el moved for a Return of all Papers printed by order of the House since 1814, with the toles of those t►at directed a sheet in leugth, and the cost to the public.s-Ordetal. Mr. SHAW presented a retilon from the Parish of St. Mary, Dublin, archon the N iodises 'I az. 'lite. Report ut the Cullicry Labour and Pay Bill was brought up with amendments. Sir EDWARD BItYDGES moved for a Committee to in quire into the prayer of certain l'etitions prevented by the Paper makers./ MISII CRIMINAL LAW. Mr. PEEL called the attention of the House to a subject which materially affected the administration of Criminal Law in Ireland, in reference to the process for the recovery of forfeited Recognizances. It was of no use that the peace of that country was attempted to be preserved by 'holding persons to bail or binding parties to prosecute, if the security which was taken for this object wet in fact a mere nullity. The vs treats or forfeited recognizances in Ireland for the last seven years had been twenty-seven thousand pounds alear ; or, in the seven years nearly two hun dred thousand poutas ; and he had ascertained that not above one.third of the amount was collected, and of that third the collectors had put a great part into their own pockets. At one Assize three constables forfeited ant less than nine hundred pounds. In the King's County, in seven years, the amount estreated was seven thousand five 'toothed pounds. and in those seven years not one effort had been made to recover the recognizances ; so that, whether a person was bound as a witness, or to keep the peace, he had in truth perfect impunity in violating his obligation. As a proof of the effect this had had, he wools' quote a letter from the Chairman of the Sessions of the County, who said it was to little purpose that Quar• ter Sessions were held, for recognizances were•treated asidle forms. There were last Quarter Seasions one hundred and eleven indictments; cut of which not above twenty cr thirty of the parties appeared to pro secute; they compromised criminal mutters, and . laughed at the process of the law. He thought he bad said enough to them, that the law wanted vindi cating in Ireland. In looking for a remedy, to this evil, lie must refer to the Law of England. He should object to place the enforcement of fines in the bands of the Grand Jury, for they themselves were sometimes obnoxious to fines as Special Jurors. A s to Constables, they had shewn themselves unworthy of the trust. lie proposed,/ theiefore, that the duty of collecting fines should devolve on the office of Sheriff, as in this country—(near,heat .) Therelwas' another matter another measure connected with The subject which he would now also advert to. Gentle men in Ireland objected to tlik: office of Sheriff. on account of being held to a responsi•iility for their pre. decessors. He should theret , re propose another Bill to provide that each Sheriff shcarld be accountable for himself only, and also to give to the Sheriff a greater controul over his Sub-Sheriff, by an action against him. In order to prevent the withholding regular payment of forfeited reclgnizances ova to the proper authorities, he should recommend, to im pose on those Sheriffs who did not account for their receipts in proper time, certain penal consequences, and make them liable to the payment of double inte rest for the time they so neglected to account. He concluded by moving, that leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend th•t law respecting forfeited Recog- Murices in 11041,1—Wear.) Sir JOHN NEWPORT expressed his satisfaction at the proposed measure. It: thought Ireland in debted to the Right Hon. Gentleman for the part he had taken in the business.--Leave was then giver. IUtUTAL ASSAULT. Mr. BENNET presented a Petition on a subject, i/rich, he said, affected the administration of justice in this country. It was the P. titian of Thomas Gtif nibs, a stationer of character and respectability in Oxford-street. It would be recollected fiom the ac• counts in the Public Papers. that a person styling himself Captain Hay. or Hoy, hired lodgings in the petitioner's house. The Captain, affecting great in -Iciest in the affairs of the petitioner, called at his house in tkcember last, and committkd a gross and violent assault on the petitioner's wile, who was preg nant at the time, and to whom it was productive of alarming consequences. The petitioner took the pro per legal steps, and an indictment .0 a the offence came on to be tlizd in February at the Clerkenwell Sessions. When the defendant Was put on the trial, to the astonishment of the Cram, the defence set Or WAlt 411 aid,. The defendant brought forward a young L it I, his set vant, who Wel% 110Otell Out Of Court for her revaticat ton ; and' their was a coach-maker produced who swore the defendant was in another place at the tiaae the offence was committed. After the ui 41 had been gone tot ()ugh, the Jury immediaxely returned a verdict of Guilty, ani the Chairman said, in the whole couise of Ins experience he had not known an offence more clearly made out, and was shocked at the attempts that had been made to meet it by perjury. Iu passing sentence on the defendant, he said, the Court thought it right to make an exam pie of him, and accordins;ly sentenced him to twelve months' imprisonment in the H use of Correction, and a fine of £29. The Chairman, at the same time,. hoped the petitioner nould prosecute the witnesses tor perjury, which he had done, and they were now sufferiug the punishment of their crime. In the se quel, however, Hoy was imprisoned in the apart ments of the Governor of the House of Correction, as, being a rich man, he could afford to purchase such accommodation; when, at the end of a fortnight, the Court of Sessions, before they rose, discharged the prisoner --( Hear, hear.) The petitioner, by his peti. Lion, complained, that he had in vain appealed to the laws of his country against a :ids man ; and after two expensive prouctitions, one of which was at the re commendation of the Court, the man who had cut raged the sanctity of his house was parading in tri. (mph before his door— (stew, mar.) o ne honour able Member said, it was his intention to move, that the petition do lie on the table, and afterwards to make a motion for a copy ,ot the order for the prisoner's discharge—(Hear, hear, 4.4 r.) Mr. BRAGGE BATHURST said, that if there was no mistake with regard to the facts, there could be no difference in opinion upon them, as they were stated—(Hear, Hear.) It certainly could not be le gal for the Magistrates themselves to annul a sentence which had been pronounced—(Hear.) And if they had done so, he must suggest, that the party had a remedy in the Courts below—(Bear.) Mr. BENNET replied, he had offered the same suggestion, but there were difficulties thrown in the way of that course of proceeding. A copy of the order of discharge had been refused, upon applica tion for it. Mr. GOOCH said, he knew something of the per. son who had been indicted, and he could say thitt he was not rich, nor was he a Captain, he believed. Mr. BROUGHAM contended, that alter sentence had been passed, nothing bat a pardon from the Crown could legally release the prisoner. The petition was then ordered to lie on the table. CHIEF JUSTICE OF CIIESTEE. Mr. PONSONBY begged to ask the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) if it was the intention of Government to fill up the office of Chief Justice of Chester, before the Committee appointed to consider the administra tion of the laws in Wales had reported to the House ? Lord CASTLEREAGH replied, that it was no: intended to advise his Royal Highness the Prince Regent to do so. HABIAS CORPUS ACT. Mr. PONSONBY-4 apprise the Noble Lord that I shall, to-morrow, take the liberty of putting a question to him *on the subject, in which the personal liberty of every man in the kingdom is concerned. Lord CASTLEREAGH—The intimation of the Right Hon. Gentleman is really so large, that he must not feel greatly surprised if, when I come to hear what the particular question may be, I should not be prepared t+ answer it. Mr. PONSONBY—Then I must inform the Noble Lord, what I believe was very well understood by most Honourable Members in the House, my ques tion will be whether it is the intention of his Majes ty's Ministers to propose a renewal of the Suspension of the Habeas Corptu ?—( Rear.) ARMY SiTIMATES. Mr. BROGDEN brought up the Report• of the Committee of Supply. Mr. J. P. GRANT said, it was his intention to submit an amendment, and it was, that the 24th of September should be substituted fur the 24th of De cember. in the time for granting the Army Estimates. His reason for doing this arose out of what he be lieved were the proceedings of the House. on the 'suggestion of the Noble Lord opposite (Castlereagh.) He understood that when the Noble Lord moved for the appcintment of a Committee up stairs, he said it was impracticable to ascertain the public income and amount of expenditure before the time at which The Army Estimates mutt necessarily be voted. Tbi was assented to, and the Noble Secretary at Wit moved the Estimates for 'ix months only, and they ! *ere voted. accordingly. Here it was distinctly ac- knowledged that it *as not .fitting *to rote the whole year, but only some part on account, until the Com mittee had time to-report. If this was so, it eras 'ne cessary for the Gentlemen opposite to shew that there was something in our situation now which there was not when the estimates were voted for half a year. ' If they could shew that the House was in a diflerent situation, either by the Report that had been pre sented, or from any other cause, then they would - be proceeding in the proper course in agreeing to the vote proposed, as far as time was concerned ; if not, he could nut imagine how they were to account to their constituents for so manifest an inconsistency. The House would go to the discussion or. the Esti mates with their minds better informed, it they had the state of their financial affairs before them. He was of opinion that when the Report of the Committee came, it would spew that there was Mile to depend upon but the Sinking Fund for the support of our esta-1 blishments. If the Committee could report iminedi- 1 1 ately, there could be no inconvenience in waiting for that Report ; if it was nut to be expected so soon, why not vote the Estimates fcr a less time than was now asked, but still long enough to include the ivriod at which the Report would err tainly be presented ? When so much greater force was asked for now, than was found adequate in 1792, it lay on the Gentle. men opposite to make out a case. It he thought the House ought to be governed by any Report, still he should say the one formerly made was evidently drew° on the principle of the speeches made on the other side. It harped upon deductions from the war establishment, but made no comparison of what ought to be expected in similar circumstances of peace. He did not mean to complain of the manner of conducting the War Office, but he could not help remarking that the statements in the estimates, with respect to that establishment, were governed by the sense wish to obtrude the apparent reductions on the notice of the House, ccncealing the actual state of the question on the whole &pet tment ; thus it was stated, that a large sum had been reduced in one branch of the service in the War Office, while in fact, in another, there had been such au increase, as to make the total charge for the whole something greater than before.—( Hear, hear).. —With respect to the army in France, it was said, that this count'' , had not been called upon for any expenses in its support, but there was an item of ,e 500,000 for the Commis sariat of that army, which could hardly be said not to belOng to the army in France. He was not one who was ready to feel Merin upon every occasion, when the consideration of the military establishments came before them, that the Constitution- was in dan ger ; but he would entreat the House to pause and consider, as had been said by the Noble Lord him self; they should do. What was likely to be the situation of that country, which for a long period WAS unable to rake a revenue sufficient to meet its expenditure ? After a few more observations, the Honourable Gentleman concluded by submitting his amendment. Mr. BANKES maintained that considerable ad vantage had arisen from the labours of the Commit. tee above stairs upon the Army Estimates, and was surprised that the Learned Gentleman should now profess to disregard the labours of the Committee, when be hod, on a former occasion, complained that •1•••• :••••••••bralii.a• had not I~n carried far enough. (Hear.) He did nut think that the responsibility of Ministers was diminished by the Committee Repor ting on the Estimates, but certainly that Report would recommend the Estimates to the adoption of the House. From a full consideration of the subject, he did not think the present Estimates too large ; at the same time be gave no pledge for his future con duct on the subject, because he hoped that next year some further reduction might be effected. (Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had treated the Committee with some degree of ridicule, which he thought altogether unwarranted. He was convinced that great industry .had distinguished their labours, though it might not appear so at the first glance. Numbers of offices were to be examined, in which Tittle or no reduciieir could be made ; fbr it was in the larger branches of the service, and in the number of men, that the great reductions were to be made. (Hear, hear.) This had been always his opinion. It the Hon. Member could lay his hand upon any part of the Estimates, and say it could safely be dispensed with, let him move that it by struck out, and prove that it was not necessary to retain it, and the Honourable Gentle. man should bare his vote, because he thought that every rational and sale retrenchment should be made. Mr. CALCRAFT could hardly trust his own ears when he heard the Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down approve the present heavy Estimates, and recollected that he had opposed those of last year most strenuously, which were not more extravagant —(Near, hear). Surely the Honourable Gentleman was most inconsistent, and had forgot his own pro fessions ; for last year he proposed a reduction of 35,000 men upon the Estimates, a number which he (Mr. Calcraft), ardently as he desired reductions, could not then venture to urge upon the House ; and now, when Ministers have reduced but 26,000 in the same branch of service, lie expressed his surprise that they had seen able to do so much —(Near, hear). — He wished to know why the state of the Finances had not been produced ? and thought the discussion on the Estimates should be deferred till the state of the Finances was fully before the House—(Hear). — But what was the reduction which had wrought such a change in the opinions of the Honourable Gentle man, and called forth his eulogy ? Why, in the Esti mates of last year, 149,000 min were voted ; and now 123,000 rank and file, which, with the Officers (and he maintained that not• to take them into the account was only to perplex the discussion)—with i the Officers then there were 140,000 required at the present time—(Hear, hear). 00 he thoupht that I a reduction of 10,000 rank and fil e cou ld b e ma d e without the-least inconvenience, whi c h wou ld l eave ' 30,000 men more in the•hands of GoveMment than was voted in the peace of 1792. It mi g ht b e sa id by the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite . that the various amounts of men were necessary on the several esta. blishments, but he contended that .the state of the Finances should have some influence in their decision. The motion which he should have tolubrnitto the House would be. for the reduction of tep thousand men, and he demanded.a fell esplanatiim, shoving that the Prate 'Establishment :which - woulertemain was necessary—(Hear, hear). It seemed that' the Naby ifas tc be Torgotten, *Wen, t'Onnect*d ilia!: the: 'instilat situation of the kingdom, *rendered a smelt minary - es!ablishment quite sufficient for our sventity. Besider, the authority which this counly had acquir ed in the affairs of the Cootinent, mast (testier all fears of a ntces:ity arising a- a plC:it mditary blishrr i ent. He believed that it was now on all hands, that taxation had a great deal to .so with the distresses of the country ; the people not live, walk, eat, or Lle, without be'ng aft.' creed b y its tfitich, ai.d it was the ditty of the House to lessen the burthen as oincli as possible. Mr. F. ROBINSON complained, that whater.. course his Majesty's Ministers pursued, whether be Committees er without Committees ; the Gentleakn opposite uniformly raised robjact;qor to the mode of pioceeding. The Honourable Gentleman had said, that lie should propose to diminish the anioeot of tioops fur the present year, by taking riff ten thousand men, but he had not sold the Honse where he send& take them fr in, nor how lie would distribute number which remained—(Hear, hear).—The Ho igitable Gentleman then went through the varic,ss items of force, maintaining that they were respec tively necessary i'or the mien:lista:lce.; of the times. There was a small increase or lorce at Gibraltar, and at Botany Bay, and indeed he was surprised that 850 men was considered sufficient for the latter Colony, when the fact was, that the population had increased five fold within a few years, and the people, as might be supposed, were not the most remarkable for their prompt obedience to author ity—(Hrar,hear).—Th en there was the Leeward Islands, in which a small in crease had taken place, which was justilie,! by the al tered circumstances 41 that part of the world. H LAVIN forbid, that lie should use a single argument %vitro should seem to impugn the policy of the Slave Trade abolition, for the first vote which lie had given in th House was in support of that measure ; but he contd. not see a powerful State growiirg up in the West /r... dies, composed of black people, without thinking some precautions tiecer.sary against A probable, then perhaps remotes danger—(Rear, hear). Sir WILLIAM BURROUGHS couli not allots this oppotionity to pass, although he had delivered his seirtiments last night without expressing his de cided opposition to the extraordinary amount of these Estimates. The country, he observed, had now been at peace two years, and yet the amount of the esta blishment Was greater than at the close of any war previous to the last. The Honourable Gentleman had said to the Gentletnen on his side of the Home, " If these Ectimstes are too great, shear us how they caii be reduced ;" but the lshble Lord and his frient3 had on right to call t.pon them to state the b.stimates which the circtinictai:Ci3 of the country wouirl justify. The onus nnb.zneli lay upon his Majesty's Miassters to demonsttate the necessity to every man of the whole number which they asked for. The Honourable Bt. ronet then e 3 nut through the various items, comparing them with those of and contended that sloe amount WAS greater than could be either ler:mayor defensible, he should therefore vote fur both the amendments seliich had been named to the Mr..l. 0 RAN 1 thooe,ht the estimate for Jamaica not sufficient to prott et the imp crtant interests of that colony. In addition to the great black empire in the West Indies, becoming an object of jealousy to t!:e colonial Government, a new light had show! upi:,:t die negiors, and they had been taught to diszucs po litical subjects ; so that he was afraid the number f troops proposed for those colonies, would not he suf ficient to maintain that imposing appt•arance which was necessary to keep the negroes in subjection. -Lord MILTON was not surprised, that the Flo nourable Gentleman should have betrayed so :nue% interest in the affairs of the West Indies, and his isist was a natural one; he desired that a greater number of troops should be employed to protect the property in Jamaica. But this leas an English questioa, arid he would ask why was there a force to be kept up now which was twice the amount of the Peace Litab lishment of 1792 ? He objected to the gener..l Asper. of the military establishments, which tended to imese a spirit of war among the people, and added consi derably to the great influence of the Crown. T:.e Ministers had taken credit to themselves for reducing the estimates to their present amount, and they cer tainly were entitled to ;raise so far. Perhaps. is dear the Right Hon. Gentleman felt that it would be aiding him in his fioancial arrangements, to be sti onglY urged to make reductions. It would operate again.% A certain species of influence, which WAS At work to keep up the establishments, and which might per plex the Right Honourable Gentleman in has roan: lions and his ministerial duties—(/lean, L.x.) maintained, that it a liberal policy se.is ad,pted wards Ireland, taking Catholic Ens incipatisio AS li-e basis, it would not be necessary to keep such dA amount of force there. In England, if a mitchiery spirit was abroad, it inieht best be put down by t' police and the yeomanri of the kingdom ; and fliers fore he thought the amnuot of force proposed England, was much greater than 11:c necessity ti the case required. On ali these grounds he stiouel support the motion for reducing the number of troop , . but could not support the motion for contracting period for which :he vote was prop sod. Mr. PEEL said, that he bad done every thing his power to reduce the number of troops in fre4inil: !sot he was not to say to the Magistracy of that colter! that he could not afford to crop! iy the ef f icient meet to suppress tumult and insubordination, became, in the military establishment, he most abide by the pre: cedent of 92. He denied that the establishment 1792 wasa fair traction by which to jihlgo what saos • necessary now. The circumstances of the tint s a rc the habits of the people being different to wino t!sc:i' were - then. He had looked through the amount of force kept in Ireland, for the last 1(X) years, arl found that in no instance was it so low as at the peg': of 92. He did not •a•isli to go into the discussion. of the Catholic Qitesi ion, which had been alluded to the Noble Lord, but he would resist the import:es that was cast by implication on the G•svernment. the Noble Lord, who seemed to insinuate, that alai:' army was kept up :n Ireland fr r tie purpose of !vitt!' • ing the Catholic peop:e in subjection—(*4r, he.) !• The fact was, that the army was emp l o y e d in the! protection, to save their property and theruselv.-sfr"r‘ • destruction.—o(Hear, was not to si lue.s rebellion against the Government that au army 0%4' I necessary, but to counteract the plots and destroy t i `'' combinations which were made against ptivate - viduals. When, as was the case a she t time aFe . in one of the counties of Ireland, tent;; *:;0' 7