Star. — London, England, 1831-03-04 00:00:00

I ' I , . be reversed it tt t hr. ('.!more. Lords, and King.-- (Hear. bear, '.e.r.l The I 10.:.e Connroliv, as at present constituted, had arose a most annwaln.z , alanncr, en Ty easy for theorists to condemn ; but if all the attempts Trade So other countries had failed of producing its equal, Le thetr ; t:ht the formation of a superior constitution was beyond the at of man, and that accident had contributed to give us that jewel Is hitt] we were now about to throw away.—.(Hear, hear.) When the toember fur IVestminster said that in a reformed parliament the people w• old not send a different representation, it was pretty gond proof that t4y ought not.—(Hear, hear.) He would only say of the evuttitution proposed cy the noble lord, in which the peers w0.1`..1 have no influence in that house, that it was not the con. emotion under which we had hitherto lived. He was as great a lover of liberty as any man in the country, but he feared the desteuction of liberty from the too great extension of popular power. How did any roan in the land feel aggrieved by the power of the Peer= ? here they not all on equal terms in the Courts of ha. lice ? 'T was true, the Peers had influence in that house, but what. ever great popular feeling existed in the country rapidly found its way into that house. There was at present a restlessness among the people ; they did nor know exactly what it was they wanted, and 'the :rouse were in much the same situation. Mr. Wyndham said the House td Cott.a.ons only possessed the power of causing the people to pause and think ; but must yield to the continuance of public opinion. If the house had no power of resistance to the popular will, could they have passed that great measure the Catholic Question ? The House of Com mons watched over every interest of the country ; none could he affected that a committee was not formed to inquire and provide a remedy, Vlr was the change now contemplated ? The whole influence of the aristocracy was to go. But look to the case of France as respects the late change in the representation there; with a body of only 32,000 vo ters, the sum of 601. per annum was required to entitle the voter to the elective franchise, a sum he (Mr. B.) was sure he was correct in estimating at about equal to 1001. in England ; and it would be borne in mind that no proposition which ever had any countenance at all amongst the reformers in France went below the sum of 401 as the qualification—an amount equal to between 601. and 701. in this country. He did not for a moment wish the House to suppose that that was the standard of qualification he meant or wished to tix —he only drew the attention of Honourable Members to the fact, that France, in those days of excitement, had not come so low respecting the qualifications of property as the present Cabinet did by fie new measure of reform. which had been submitted to the country. For his own part he had always been a moderate reformer, and wished to see such large towns as Birmingham and Manchester re presented ; and, as respected Scotland, he was uniformly of opinion, that it ought to possess a better mode of representation; but when he said that Scotland would be beneflued by some alteration in its repre. 'tentative system, he did not argue that it was not represented either actually or virtually in that house ; for his own part, be never saw a Scotch question but was as pugnaciously defended, and supported by the Scotch members, and taken up by the house with as much interest as one relating to England or Ireland. (Hear, hear.) Whilst, however. he said so much, he begged to state that he could not agree with the honourable and learned member for Boroughbridge (Sir C. Nretherell) that the three estates of the Constitution, King— Lords, and Commons, could not alter the electoral law of the land.— Now, as respects the money spent in elections, as far as concerned him. self he could say, that though he had sat in that house for twenty-one years, he had never spent one shilling in any of his elections, and would not hf sitate to show all his accounts incurred in each of them, when it would be seen that no remuneration whatever had been given to those who voted for him ; and lie doubted not, if many of those pleas which were to be disfranchised were looked into, they would be found in a si. miler predicament, whilst others were to be left with all their impurities, to die away with the present electors, with the exception indeed of the absent freemen. He need only instance Sudbury and Shaftesbury, for lie did not wish to go farther lest he should frighten sotne honourable members. (A laugh.) He should ask the noble lord who had shown such a disposition to throw open boroughs, if he could, with that act, increase their purity, or the purity of the motives of the persons going down to solicit the suffrages of electors. In short, there was no inquiry made ; length of purse alone decided the question ; of course, there trust be no great slur on personal character. But why, again he would ask, was not the borough of Tavistock included in the list of places cashieted by the noble lord ? Was it because it belonged to the Duke of Bedford ; or, if it had been included, it would not have been, even if the present measure were carried, as much the property of the uke of Bedford as it was now ' - he was so certain of this that he would assure the noble lord (Lord John Russell) of the fact for half-a-crown per cent. He called upon his Majesty's Ministers to weigh well in their minds that for the sake of making alterations they were to cut off all the lower classes of society from any share in the representation ; he should oppose any measure that brought with it the disfranchisement of the lower classes, who did not seem to be considered in the measure of the noble lord; it was his opinion that every man ought to have a vote in the government and representation of the coun try, until it can be shewn that it is an injury, for the poor man, that he should have that right in his own hand. But returning aga in to the amount of qualification, if it was proper now, what was to be said as re. spected the next twenty years, are they to be less disturbed than the present ? If his Majesty's ministers are really looking for security, they should recollect that the atmosphere was very cloudy, that troubles we're abroad, and that they should make 151. a year the qualification for the next twenty years, and 101. for the twenty years following. The hon. member concluded by calling upon those who excited agitation in the present times to look to the misery in Paris which followed the most legitimate revolution that ever took place. He said so because he had been told that unless the present measure was carried nothing short of a revolution would take place in this country. The hon. member sat down amidst loud cheering from the Opposition. The Marquis of TAVISTOCK addressed the House. He said he should delay the address of his Noble Friend but a very few momenta, but after what had fallen from the honourable member who last ad. dressed the house, he could not avoid taking the first opportunity that presented itself of saying a few words. The honourable member seemed to cast a reflection cn His Majesty's Ministers the not having included the borough of Tavistock as well as Callington amongst those boroughs which were to be disfranchised. (Cries of " No, no.") He certainly so understood the Hon. Member. Now, in reply, he would say, that if the Hon. Member would bring forward a motion to have Tavistock in. eluded, it should have his cordial support. But if he abstained from making such motion. greatly did he (the Noble Marquis) mistake the character of the Duke of Bedford, if he should ever influence his tenants in that place as to the manner in which they should give their votes. The honourable Member said, that if he (the Marquis of Tavistock) would give him a half-crown. he would ensure him the return of two members for Tarlatock. Now, if the hon. member would give him a half.crown, he would return him 20 half-crowns if eve, the Duke of Bedford mile the attempt (Hear.) The hon. mem. her complained of the line being drawn which included Tavistock and excluded Callington. Now ; without undervaluing the importance of the latter place, he must say that it contained a population of 1,320 persons, while Tavistock contained upwards of 6,000—a population greamr than that of Bedford; and he might also state, that that town would be also left to itself, as far as respected any influence to be used by the Duke of Bedford. As he was on his legs, he would now say a word as to the question before the house, and his feelings with respect to it. It appeared to hint that the Government of this country had for years been carried on on principles of most unjustifiable and wasteful extra.l vagance,—that patronage had been kept up for the purpose of main taining the influence of the Crown, and that which was known by par. liamentary influence, for the purpose of carrying on measures against the %ense of the country. The people felt now, more fully than at any former period, that they had not their just Llfluence in the legislative councils of the nation, and they naturally sought for that change which would give it to them. He sincerely hoped and believed that the mea. sure new before the house would have that effect, that it would give them all they could reasonably desire. He hoped it would curb the , monopoly su long maintained by the higher orders, and give a fair cx. pres.Mli of the tense of the middling classes. In this view of the mea sure, it should have his cordial support. (Hear.) :Vt.. A. BA RING, in explanation. said, that from what fell from the noble marquis, he feared that something had escaped him in the ct•urse • f hht remarks which was personally offensive. (" No. no," flow the Opposition benches.) If he had said any thing which could have teen so conntrued, it must have escaped him in the heat of debate, at m b e was sorry for it. (Hear, hear.) For the noble duke whose name id , had used he had the highest respect, and it was only justice to him to state that time was nothing in his high mind which could warrant the imputation of obtaining undue influence by means of any measure of government. He lead never meant to impute any thing of the kind either to the ruble duke or to government, connected with the measure before tlw house. (Neon) Lord PALMERSTON (who was again loudly called for) now ad. dressed ti.e house. He rejoiced, be said, that he had given way to his noble friend (the Marquis of Tavistock), as it had created an opportu nity for the hon. men-her (Mr. A. Daring) to explain what might otherwise have produced au impression that something was done by the government in the framing of this plan out of deference to the views or wishes of the house of Russell. Nothing of the kind could have been ex pec t ed nn the one side, or thouett of on the other ; and he was glad the. the hon. member had the opportunity of declaring that he had never meant to convey any such imputation. With what fell from the hon. number in the beginning of his speech, he fully concurred. He agreed with him in thinking that whatever subjects of impel. canoe might have occupied the attention of the house at former pee riods, there never was any subject of so much importance' ' as that now submitted to its consideration. Many former measures of great importance had been decided by their single importance, and with reference to some past rips. rience,—bnt the present measure could not be tried by any such test. It was one which did not affect only one particular interest,--it would effect the whole government and character of the country, not only now but in all future ages. He did not affect, for a moment, to conceal the difficulty with which the okeption was surrounded : if he did, he should he unworthy of the place be held, and the part be took on this occasion; for he must, indeed, he a bold or an unthinking man, who could ap. putsch such a question without a due consideration of all the difficulties with which it was encompassed,—who could propose to make such a change in the constitution, which, with all its faults, had been produe. tive of so many benefits to the country at largo. (Chews from the oppo sition benches.) He repeated, he must be a very bold, or a very thoughtless man, who could propose such a change without the most serious consideration of it in all its bearings. Fondness for change was, he must say, not the character of the people of England. They had always been remarkable for a tenacious attachment to their national institutions, affording, in this respect, a striking contrast to their next door neighbours, who were often dazzled and delighted by the freshness and newness of their institutions, whilst in 01(1 England people rejoiced in the antiquity of theirs. We well knew the great difficulty of bringing the people to consent to a change in their laws,—how strenuously many a hard.fought contest war maintained before they could be induced to relinquish ceetain statutes—how long, and how eagerly, the struggle was carried on during years of discussion, before they could be brought to give up—first, the traffic in human beings, and, at a later period, those laws which condemned a considerable portion of the people to political degradation—he meant the penal code affecting the Roman Catholics. When he saw in a people so unwilling heretofore to consent to changeot now eager desire for innovation--a desire not confined to itinerant demagogues or bow-window orators, but mani fested by large masses, including those of rank, and wealth, and station, and influence in the country, demanding a change, we should come to the conclusion that there existed in the country some great practical abuses which called loudly for a remedy. (Hear, hear.) The hon. gentleman (Mr. Baring) said, that if the people were left to themselves, they would be quiet, and not think of making such demands as the present measure was intended to satisfy; and he added, that if the Goya rn merit, and the press, and the public did not pursue a fallacy, we should not have heard so much of the cry for innovation. Now he must say, that if the Government, and the press, and the public, were of opinion that this innovation was necessary, it might happen that it was not a fallacy. (Hear.) He contended that the people of this country sought for a change, because the state of the country was such as to require it. (Hear, hear.) Among the many instances which he could elm in proof of that fact, he would for the present only mention one, that they (the ministers) were now seated on those benches which had been so recently occupied by honourable gentlemen opposite. (Hear, hear, from the ministerial benches, echoed by those of the opposition.)--- hon. gentlemen might say what they pleased, but it war not the differ ence about the civil list—it was not the reduction of the salaries of some half-eloaen offices, which caused the overthrow of the late administra tion. The rock which they split upon was their defiance of publieopi nion. (Hear, hear, from the opposition, followed by cheers from the ministerial side.) They went on spreading wide the canvass of patro nage as they proceeded ; but that patronage, and the use they made of it to accelerate their progress and increase their power, proved to be their ruin. He would again repeat it, the besetting sin of the last adminis tration was a disregard of public opinion—of public opinion at home— of public opinion abroad. (Cheers, and loud cries of Hear" from the Opposition.) The error of the course they pursued (lid not unfortu nately end with their power t it had become the means of setting Eu. rope in flames. He asserted that an obstinate adherence to the notion that a few men in authority could succeed in bearing down public opinion, had proved fatal to the late administration, and he warned the house that the example might serve as a guard against any such error in future, He would contend that if it were not for the prudence and discretion and activity of two men,of his noble friend at the head of the home department, and of the great firmness of the noble lord at the head of the government of Ireland, we might now be in a situation to be alarmed for the connection of the two countries— (cheers from the opposition). Those who recollected what took place in November last, and who considered the steps taken on that occasion, would bear out his assertion ; and notwithstanding the cheers of hon. gentlemen in opposition, from whom no very large support or approval could be expected on su ch an occasion, he would repeat, that to the cir cumstances he had alluded, the country was much indebted for the tran quillity that now reigned in that part of the country; but he must at the same time say, that all that the present Ministry had done would have been unavailing if they had not been supported by public opinion. What they had done, the late ministry could never have achieved, for public opinion was decidedly against them. He said then, when public opinion was so strong in favour of a change, it was the duty of govern ment to concede that change, in such a manner as not to impair those advantages we had so long enjoyed. In looking at the nature of the proposed changes, let the house consider some of the evils which it was intended to remedy. What was it which for years had produced so much misgovernment—so much disregard to public opinion ? The gross bribery and corruption practised at elections, by means of which parties rame into Parliament, and undue influence at elec tions for members of that house, by means of which so many of them came in either without constituents, or only with those whom they had purchased and might sell again. (Hear, hear, hear.) When, then, by such practices the people were driven to tear aside the veil of sanctity with which hereditary respect had invested even the imperfections of the constitution, it was impossible that they whose limited propositions of reform had been rejected, should not be led to demand wider and more extensive changes. There were many men in that house who wished things to remain as they were, and who would be willing to bear the faults of the constitution for the sake of its many excellencies. He would tell those people, that if now they were driven to the necessity of choosing between a change which they feared, and the evil co sequences which would arise from the re fusal of that change, the blame must rest on those who three years ago refused to make even the smallest concession to public feeling. (Hear.) If, three years ago, advantage had been taken of the conviction of corrupt boroughs, to bring gradually into connection with that house the great unrepresented towns,—if, Instead of drawing nice equations between the manufacturing and the agricultural interests, they had turned reformers on ever so moderate a scale, the house would not now have been discussing a plan of general reform, proposed by his noble friend, as his Majesty's paymaster of the forces. (Hear.) He had supported all those pmposalsfor limited reform, because he thought them good in themselves ; and because he clearly saw, chat if they were refused, we should be obliged to have recourse to wider and more exten sive changes; but his predictions had been condemned and disregarded by the honourable gentlemen opposite. For reasons similar to those for which he then supported those limited propositions of Reform, he was now prepared to support the more extensive measure ' which had been proposed by his noble friend. Taunts had been thrown in the course of that night's debate against those who, like himself, were the admirers of Mr. Canning. They had been taunted for abandoning the principles which that great man had adopted with respect to the important question of reform. He thought that the events which bad taken place in that house since the lamented death of that illustrious person, might have taught those who indulged in such taunts, that public men might change their opinions on questions of deep national concernment, without being influenced by any but honest and honourable motives. (Cheers.) He should have imagined that those who cast such reproaches, would have learned by this dine, that public men were not justified in indulging what he called the puerile vanity of consistency of opinion, if by so doing they might endanger the great interests of the country. What Mr. Canning's opinion on the question of reform would now have been, had he lived to the present day, it was not for him to say ; but they were bad ex. pounders of Mr. Canning's opinions, who looked for them in particular sentiments, expressed at particular times, and did not scrutinise the principles by which his public life was guided. (Hear, hear.) If any man took a great and enlarged view of human affairs, without doubt that eminent statesman did; and he would venture to say, that had Mr. Canning lived in the present day, and stood in the same circumstances in which he (Lord Palmerston) stood, his great genius would have at once comprehended the necessity on which the opinions of the Govern , ment were founded, and would have stated to the house in his (Lord ; Palmerston's) belief the same ser.timents which he (Lord Palmerston) was now expressing. If any honourable member wanted to learn the opinions of Mr. Canning, let him refer to that speech delivered by that gentleman in February, 1826, on the freedom of the silk trade, • ~ when he expressed himself in a manner very applicable to the at occasion--saying, "That those who resisted improvement, because it r was innovation, might find themselves compelled to accept innovation, when it had ce a sed to be improvement." (Cheers.) It w a s no l onger : in the power of the house to do, in 1831, what would have been easy in 1328--namely, to take advantage of the conviction of corrupt boroughs to transfer the elective franchise, as occasions occurred, to the great ma nufacturing towns. A change of circumstances had made it necessary ' for government to prepare for the consideration of parliament a plan of 5 general reform. lie war aware that those who were wedded to the pre • sent system might denounce the proposition of government to be a re. t volutionary measure, while those who sought to overthrow existing establishments, and build on their ruins another system, of which they aimed to be the rulers, would stigmatize it as insufficient; r b u t he was convinced that those who admitted timely correction and improvement to he the conservative principle of free institutions, would ' I look upon the proposition as well adapted to consolidate the fabric of the constitution, and give it due c o n s i stency and strength.—(Cheers.) I Any one who looked at the constitution of m the entdc fects_ representation vtiie o n f o t m hi i s . house, could not fail to be struck by five prominent , nation boroughs,—the gross, general, and barefaced corruption which prevailed, not only in small, but also in large places,—the want of members for some of the greatest and most important manufacturing towns,—the expenses of elections,—and the unequal distribution among different classes of society of that power which resulted from the exercise of the elective franchise. To all these defects the plan of government applied sound and wholesome remedies. it was impossible for any man to say that the existence of no ' mination boroughs was consistent with the theory of the constitution, according to which hon. members sat in that house as the represen. tatives of the people of England. He did not deny that some of those boroughs had afforded an entrance into the house to persons of splendid talents and great capacity, who hail stireassally advocated the rights and liberties of the people. But still It wad' impossible for any plan of real reform to be devised, which did not have for its foundation the total disfranchisement of the nomination boroughs. Besides, without considerable disfranchisement, it was impossible to provide for the other advantages which the plan of Gkwernment pro. posed to accomplish. Every man would agree that the number of the members of Parliament, if not too large, was huge enough ; and unless some boroughs had been disfranch ised, it would have been impossible, without great inconvenience, to give representatives to the manufacturing towns. Some honourable members had contended that an unfair selection had been made of the boroughs to be disfran chised ; and the bon. member for Callington had insinuated that the plan of Government had not been framed on general principles, but with a view to save certain boroughs, and the borough of Tavistock among the number. A most triumphant answer to such a charge had been given by his noble friend (the Marquis of Tavistock), who had stated that the population of Tavistock was 5,000, while that of Callington was some where - between 1,000 and 2,000. For the further satisfaction of the hon. member he could inform the house that there were 25 other boroughs with a population between that of Tavistock, and the most populous of the forty-seven half-disfranchised boroughs, which would retain the privilege of returning two representatives. (Hear, hear.) It was not the object of Government to sever the ties which existed between the middle and lower claws and the aristocracy ; and they did not think that their proposition would have any such effect. They did not wish to put an end to that influence which arose from good conduct on the one hand, and respect and affection on the other, but to unreason. able submission to naked authority. The Honourable Member (Mr. Baring) had stated, in the early part of his speech, that the proms. sition of Government would effect a real as weU as a theoretical se paration of the two !louses of Parliament, and that the influence of the aristocracy would be excluded from the House of Commons: but the Hon. Gentleman, in the latter part of his speech, proceeded to answer his own objection ; and stated, that not only the Duke of Bedford would retain as much Parliamentary influence, but that even he (the Honorable Member for Callington) would still have it in his power to return the Member for Callington. He (Lord Palmerston) maintained that the proposition of Government would not destroy the wholesome influence of the aristocracy—that influence which was ob tained by eminent conduct, by moral and intellectual distinction, and by exercising towards their inferiors those qualities which secured the affections, and gained the admiration of men. The plan of Government would introduce to a share in the Government of the country the great body of householders—that is, the great bulk of the middle classes of the kingdom. An hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. H. Twiss) had chosen to make himself merry at the expense of the middle tissue.— (" No, no." and cries of " hear.") He was pleased to say, that shop keepers, small attomiee, innkeepers, and publicans, were totally unfit to enjoy any share in the representation. (Loud cries of " No, no, no.") He could assure honourable members that he was not speak ing front memory, for he had taken down the honourable and learned gentleman's words (hear.) But he would ask the hon. and learned member, in what respect were the potwallopas more fitted to choose representatives than respectable shopkeepers and attornies ? (hear, hear.) An hon. member (Mr. Baring) had asked why, if it were considered dangerous to trust the potwallopers with the elective franchise beyond 20 years, not disfranchise them now ? The answer he gave to that question was, that though the government thought that that description of voters should be extinguished, yet they did not see such danger In the present electors continuing to exercise the elective franchise, as to induce them to take that right away during the lives of those who now possessed it (hear.) He believed that the proposition would prove satisfactory to the country; and notwithstanding the taunts which had been thrown on the middle classes, he believed there did not exist in any country a body of men more entitled to respect ar.d confi dence than the middle classes of this country. (Hear, hear.) He would venture to say that there never was a class of men more distinguished for morality and good conduct, for intelligence and love of order, for true loyalty to their King, for affection to the constitution, an d,i in case of need, for devotion to their country. (Cheers.) He considered it would be one great and main recommendation of the plan of Govern ment that it gave to the middle classes an interest in the Government of the country, from which they had been so long excluded. The noble lord next alluded to the great expenses attending elections, arising from gross and disgusting bribery, and stated that this cause of expense was to be removed by the introduction of a respectable and honest body of voters. He did not agree with an honourable member that it was worse for electors to sell their votes titan the proprietors of boroughs to sell their seats in parliament, because corruption on such a large scale had a tendency to destroy respect for the institutions of the country, and demoralise the whole population of the place where it prevailed.— An hon. member had stated that there was no necessity to give repre sentatives to the manufacturing towns, because they possessed virtual representation; but he (Lord Palmerston) asked, why should not, then, small boroughs be contented with similar representation ? The manu facturing towns required something more than virtual representation, considering how often parliament was called upon to legislate on matters affecting the interests of the commercial portion of the country, It was, therefore, desirable that they should possess representatives with whom they could directly communicate, and in whom they placed confidence. (Hear.) To the manufacturin g towns, then, it was intended to give 34 members, and to preserve the just preponderance of the landed interest,' it was proposed to add 55 to the county members. Besides, all persons who had votes in towns would not be entitled to vote in counties, so that the representatives of counties would be even more exclusively than at present the representatives of the agticultural interest. We looked on the landed interest as the surest foundation on which rested the fabric of the state, and the institutions of the country. Ile meant no disparagement to .he manufacturing and commercial classes. He was perfectly aware that they were indispensable to the happiness and prosperity of the country; and that, without them, land would lose its value. But the House must not forget, that the soil of the country was the country itself.— With reference to what had fallen from the hon. member for Calling. ton (Mr. Baring), he would add, that under the present system, it was not Went that procured a man a seat in that house, but length of purse,—the ability to pay agents and post horses up to the fourteenth day. This was a great and practical evil, and this evil the bill would prevent. The great and leading principle of the bill was, that it would alter the distribution of the different classes, and bring the' middling classes into communion with the others. The present system did not give the middling classes an adequate share in the representation. He was convinced that the majority of the house would concur in the bill, as a measure adapted to pro. mote the public good. There might be men who thought that the weight of public opinion might be cast out of account on this ques tion, miscalculating the working of that opinion throughout the coun try. There might be men who thought that a vote of that house might change the opinion of the country, or that Government might bid de. fiance to that opinion, and refuse to comply with it. He trusted that the number of such persons, end of those who acted as they did, would not prove to be a majority of the house (hear), as it might lead to se. rious consequences. There were, however persons who thought that the Bill would satisfy the country, and unite all classes in its favour; and he trusted that, in the decision the house was about to come to, the truth would prevail. Mr. BARING rose to explain, but the confusion created by the pre vious rising of Sir Robert Peel prevented a word of the explanation be ing heard. Sir ROBERT PEEL said he should begin by assuring his noble friend (Lord Palmerston) that one part of his speech, which related to his own personal situation, was wholly unnecessary to him ; for if his noble friend had not thought it necessary to explain the grounds upon which he was this night prepared to adopt a course so different from his own, even from his silence he should have drawn no unfavoura ble conclusion. He begged his noble friend to believe that he did not join in the taunt against him. He (Sir R. Peel) had been placed in the same situation ; he had found it necessary, from a due regard to the principles which had always regulated his conduct, to adopt a different course from that which he had formerly adro. rated ; and he, therefore, ought to be the last man to refuse the indulgence of which he had stood in need to public men who were placed in a similar situation.—(Hear.) He never would believe that public men did not look to higher motives than a desire to retain their plates, when they were induced to change their opinions, and the character, the views, and the conduct of his noble friend afforded a suf. ficient guarantee for the purity of his motives. Having thus imitated the generous custom which prevailed even in less dignified encounters— having, as he might say, shaken hands with his noble friend, by relies , . log himself from any suspicion of personal hostility in what he should say, the noble lord would not be dis pleased, if, with perfect fde om of discussion, he subjected his speech to some observation and comment. At a time when the house had been expecting that some member of his Majesty's government would give some explanation of this mea sure, at a moment when the house wished to know, not what was the public opinion of it, but what practical ground could be alleged for the adoption of what might be called a new constitution, the noble lord bad, instead, thought proper to institute a personal comparison between the merits of the last and the present administration. (Hear, hear.) That part of his noble friend's speech had consisted of sarcastic allusions to the conduct and opinions of the late Government—and of attempts--and not very successful ones (hear) to magnify the present administration at the expense of the pre ceding. (Cheers.) " See," said the noble lord, " what we have done. I very believe," said the noble lord, " that if there bad not been a change in the government, this great measure would not have taken place." He (Sir Robert Peel) would not pursue a similar course.— No party hostility should prevent him from doing justice where he thought there was merit, and giving praise where praise wits due._ (Hear, hear.) He admired the course of the present Home D e p ort . meat ; he admired the conduit of the noble marquis now at the heac, of the Irish Government ; ever since he had resumed that office, he bad seen nothing in his conduct but what entitled him to praise and admiration ; and he believed there was so much truth in what bad been said by his noble friend, that had the late adininis. tration been in office, they would not have been able to effect wh at h ad been effected there by the present administration. (Hear.) But would they have had the same assistance ? (Loud cheers from the oppo se . don.) Would they, if they had introduced the measures which had [ been adopted by the noble marquis, called upon to adopt them in a time of great public excitement, have found all party feelings giving way to considerations of public policy, and united all in the general suppor t of [ the government, in order to defeat the efforts of individuals to disturb the prosperity of the country? His noble friend—he would not enter deeply linto the comparison,—but his noble friend must recollect, that wi t h respect to Ireland, that very instrument, which had been wielded by the noble marquis with characteristic vigour and success, e s ; an; instrument which had been placed in his hands by the late ad. ministration (Hear) contrary to the opinion, and contrary to de votes, of many members of the present administration ; and that it the late Government had been, in their attempts to maintain the peace of Ireland, somewhat impeded by the violence of local and internal force, it was not the late Government that commenced the reduction of the yeomanry. (Hear.) In his anxiety to find cause for blaming the administration which had preceded the last, his noble friend had said, that if, in 1828, that Government:had consented to transfer the elective franchise from East Rctford to Birmingham, the house would not now have been discusairg the necessity for a ge. neral reform; for that that single measure would have quieted the apprehensions of the people, mid have satisfied them. (Hear, hear, hear.) But if from such small events such mighty result. would spring—if the transferring the franchise from East Ret. ford to Birmingham would have been so satisfactory to all classes of the community, that there would now have been no necessity for reform, it was incumbent tupon the house to inquire' what was the paramount consideration under these circumstances, which rendered it imperative to change the constitution of the country. His noble friend said, Why did you not consent to the disfranchisement of East Raked ?" Unless he (Sir R. Peel) mistook not, his noble friend and himself entered the house together au that thud night which led to the dissolution of the late Government, and his noble friend and himself had intended to give their votes on the same side upon that evasion ; but the effect of a taunt upon his late right honourable friend (Mr. If uskisson) had compelled him, in obedience to his feelings, to deviate front the course which he had intended to adopt, and which, out of a sense of honour, led him to tender his resignation. But, said his noble friend, s' if you had transferred the elective franchise from Let Retford to Bir. mingham in 1828, there would not have been the least necessity for Re form now." (Cries of " No," answered by cheers from the opposition.) Would his noble friend have rested satisfied, in the resent state of the representation, with the five grand detects in it which he had enume rated, and would he not have thought it his duty to come forward and rescue both parties, the representatives and the represented, from the effects of the corruption he had described ? His noble friend had lamented that the voice of Mr. Canning could not be heard in that House, and had assumed that that voice would have been raised in favour of the plan of His Majesty's present Government. —(Hear, hear.) It might be so. (ion grant that he was here GOD grant that that voice might now be raised in that house, convinced, as he was, that it would be raised to confound the fallacies and sophis. tries by which the public mind was deceived. If Mr. Canning had lived, and had changed his opinions on this question, he would have had the manliness to avow the change. But no expression of Mr. Canning, no passage in his brilliant speeches,carried the slighter,: indi cation that such change had taken place as his noble friend had sup. posed. Where had his noble friend found the proof that sr. Can. ning had changed his opinicns on the subjectof reform ? IPhy, in a speech which he delivered on the silk trade in 1827 (heat.) In 1827, a year after the alteration of the silk trade, Mr. Canning, when sitting on the bench opposite, backed by the support of a large pvty in the house, upon the question as to what was to be done with the franchise of Penryn, Mr. Canning, against the dictates of his own judgment, submitted to be left in a minority of his friends around him, on a questiontwhethes the franchise of Penryn should be thrown into the hundreds, or transferred to Manchester. (Hear, hear.) Thus, when his noble friend threw out imputations against public men, a ten. dernesa for the fame of Mr. Canning had induced him to vindicate his memoty. He now came to the tremendous question before the house ; but before he approached the consideration of it, he must confess that he was afflicted with great pais and humiliation, beyond any thing h• - . bad ever experienced in considering a question of this description.— He was asked, be would not say to make a revolution in the country, but to substitute for the present system a different [ constitution (loud cheers); and he was not invited to do this after a calm and dispassionate enquiry, but to take this luau step by an appeal to motives, which if he acted upon, he should not be subjecting his fears to his judgment, but his judgment to his fears. (Hear, hear.) Before he proceeded further, be would ask why the King's name was introduced in this discussion ? Why had it been stated in another place, that this plan had received the particular sane. tion of the Ring? As to the reference that had been made to the discussion on the Catholic question, the cases had no similarity. On that foccasion it had been publicly slated that the measure had tor. the sanction of the King, and the ministers had then no alternative but to declare that the measure was brought forward with the sanction of the King. But when a measure like this was brought forward by the administration ' was it necessary, day a ft er day, in both housta of Parliament, and in the public press, to state that this men sure, which must have received the approbation of His Majesty, was brought forward with the express sanction of the King ? He (Sir. R. Peel) held it to be no imputation upon his respect and loyalty to the Crown, if he disregarded the intimation that the King had sanctioned this measure, and if. as a member of Parliament, he exercised his judgment on the merits of the question as unreservedly as if no such intimation had been given. (Hear, hear.) But he regretted on other grounds, that the name of the King should be thus obtruded day after day. (Hear, hear.) He could not dismiss from his mind doubts as to the justice and expediency of this extreme measure of disfranchisemeut ; (hear, hear): but granting that they did exist, still it ass a harsh measure towards the loyal bodies who were called upon to sacrifice privileges which they had long elm. deed ; and even if it was justly introduced, why should the King be held out as the special author of the plan ? He (Sir H. Peel) had thought the King had ban the fountain of grace and favour; but it seemed as if this plan of extreme disfranclisement was to be receive y the house, and not to be dissented from, under the terror of its being hi. troduced with the King's express sanction, if not at the King's sugg,s. don. Then the house was menaced with dissolution. (Cheers) The chances of dissolutiou were as strong if the measure was carried as it it failed. He (Sir R. Peel) cared nut if the house were dissolved cr not; nor should he be fit for the performance of a single legislative duty, if he permitted any such menace• to influence him. He cared not whether he was returned again or not ; but if he telt am, anxiety on this head, he would go to his constituents with the Fill his hand, and he would place his special ground on their nnewed confi dence upon his determined opposition to i:. He would go to a com munity whale numbers, by the return of 1821, were not more titan 4000 inhabitants, and he would tell them that this bill had been brought in without any allegation of necessity, or without any case being matte out against them, and that he had opposed it. He knew they had nev.r abused their rights; that the humblest man amongst them, never re• ceived or naked a bribe for the vote they gave. They had received hire. when they had been subjected to the indignity of expuhier. foe what he conceived to be a special act of duty, even to that church of which he at all times was an humble mem ber. (Hear, hear, hem.) They had then returned him as their repre sentative; a nd till the necessity of the measure was established by more cogent arguments than he had yet heard, he would not consent to deprive them of their right. But he was told that he must adopt this measure, as the alternative was civil commotion ; he was to he *cared from the exercise of his deliberate judgment on a peculiarly samples and important question, by the apprehension of a massacre, for such was the picture given by the lion. memb: r for Caine. But why should In (Sir R. Peel) not have the same privilege of exercising the same judg ment on this bill as the hon. gentlemen on the aches side had done wk.. they voted against the bill of the noble lord last year ? They did not think that when they rejected that bill it implied an aversion to all reform. Upon the same principle, those gentlemen rejected the vote by ballot; and why was he not at liberty to discuss this bill? He would say to ministers—" Don't thift from your own shoulders the weight of re sponsibility which attaches to the proposal of such a measure; don't say ,we will prime our capacity to govern, but boast rather c: your ability to destroy." (Cheers.) He at least bad not tact one who industriously excited the stormy wave of multitude, — who employed all hid faculties to create dissatisfaction and disconte: t. (Hear Hear.} He at least had never uttered the language ef a noble lord in 1827, who found the people peaceful, quiet, and contented, and complained that he could not rouse their indignation against the constitution of the House of Commons,—who grieved [ that they were so apathetic as to prove " deaf to the voice of the charmer, charm he never so wisely. (Hear.) lie at least had neve: called for a list of the names of 115 privy councillors, in order :e. direct against them the full torrent of popular displeasure and mein' meat, on account of the remuneration afforded to their services. (Hear.) Neither had he ever instituted any invidious cunt?:. risons between the great naval commanders and the e isiltaile who presided over the Admiralty. Neither had he instigiied and encouraged any body of men to display, under the very sex dows of the seat of Government, a foreign emblem of revertant r (Hear.) He had never been the person to excite the people to a pitch ofphrensy, to spur their bay indifference to an emulation it revolutionary clamour. If, therefore, this measure, which common prudence would have forborne introducing at such a crisis in our fortagn and domestic relations, when fresh causes of excitement ought to be cautiously avoided,—if, he said, this extraordinary measure should be defeated, he would never allow that the responsibility of the disappoim• went could attach to hint, or to any other individual member of that house. (Loud cheers.) Reference had been made in the course of de bate to a supposed intentional disparagement of the middle clews. en 1; I • , 'ot • i•