Star. — London, England, 1822-02-06 00:00:00

Eatnre had atisen between the emits of St. Peters burgh and the Ottoman Porte: but there was reason to hope that they would be amicably terminated.— With this prospect before them, he could not help c ongratulating the House upon the elevated situation in which this country was placed. It was in the highest degree creditable to this country, that though struggling herself in a period of difficulty unparal le'ed in history, she had been the main instrument of giving independence to, and preserving the Tepee of nations. The next passage in his Majesty ' s Speech worthy the attention of the House, was that in which he stated the results of his visits to different parts of his dominions. As soon after the death of our late revered King as his present Majesty could come forth from his retreat, the first object to which he turned his -attention was a visit to the several parts of his king dom. The first place to which he went was Ireland; 'but it was totally out of his (Mr. Clive's) power to 'describe the enthusiasm with which his Majesty, who was the first Prince of the House of Brunswick who had visited that part of the empire , was re ci.-ived. The attachment and loyalty of the people - were without bounds, and he was sure the Illustrious . Person who was himself the object of these feelings'! 'ould never lose the remembrance of them. It was to be regretted that subsequently acts of violence and outrage took place in that country ; but from the de scription of persoes engaged in them, as well as from the nature of these -ontrages, it was clear that they originated fi om local ceases, in many cases indivi dual mismanagement, and most probably from the pressure of distress in a great degree—(Hear, hear). His Majesty's Speech hell out the most cheering prospects as to the improvement in the Revenue. It al-n seated what was no less gratifying, that great reductions had been made in all the Public Depart ments. In the Address which he should have the honour of proposing, this head should not be over looked, becawe retrenchment came so seasonably at tins time; and though it was at all times desirable to manage the public means with economy, yet that was never so much to be wished fie. as in times of great distress—(Hear, hear). The House would not f.,3 t o perceive that his Majesty stated, that very great reductions had been made in the scale of the annaal expenditure in the Army and Navy. They would also learn with satisfaction, that the weight which hart been for some time pressing heavily upon cur ni.mitactures and commerce was nearly re moved, and that at this time the greatest activity prevailed in every department of commerce. He w: !led it was in his power to say as much with re.:ai d to that of agriculture—(Hear, hear, hear).- 1; was a melancholy truth, that that most important branch of the national wealth was at this time la bouring under the most severe distress; but he found room to look forward to better prospects, and he was sure there was ne subject to which his Majesty's Mi rii,ters would more cordially lend their co-operation, than to the removal of these burdens. He trusted, c:hen the united wisdom of Parliament had been brought to bear upon the subject, in a little time a remedy would be discovered to cure those difficulties of which the agricultural interest complained so loudly. Arguing from analogy to the improvements which had taken place in the several branches of trade, there was great reason to expect a similar im provement in agriculture. The state of trade now, as compared with what it was two or three years ago, much improved, and within that time there had been a gradual improvement in our manufactures. 03-.: point, however, he wished to impress upon the Winse: and that was, the necessity of preserving in. violate our faith with the public creditor—(Hear, 1•::,-l.—They should be sensible that this was one gr.::. , ay. It was this which placed us in the proud situ :lion that we now filled ; and it was unnecessary to s tv, that it was of the fiat importance to our na ti sal even to our future existence, to pre serve it inviolate—(!icar, hear).—The Honourable Member varcluded by reading the Address, which was an echo of the Speech from the Throne. Mr. WILLIAM DUNCOMBE rose to second the Adams. Whoever had witnessed the devastating effect, of war, must feel deeply grateful for the first assurance given in his Majesty's most gra cious S t .eech from the Throne. There was nothing he dreaded more than the possibility of his saying anything which might disturb the unanimity which ought to prevail on this occasion: in alluding to Ire lam], however, and the unfortunate state of some parts of that country, he was satisfied they wool,' partake sincerely in the sorrow so feelingly expressed by his Majesty in his Speech from the Throne. It must he a matter of deep concern to find that, after the flattering and intoxicating manner in which his Majesty had been received by the affectionate people of that country, his visit should have been succeeded by a spirit of personal outrage and systematic viola tion of the law. The House had been assured that the whole force of the laws would be brought into effect, aided by a spirit of conciliation, so a, perfectly to restore order and allay discontent.— It was equally gratifying to find that the amount of the Revenue of this year exceeded that of the last, as well as to be assured that great reductions had taken place in the annual expenditure, particularly in the naval and military establishments of the country. The agricultural question was certainly one intimately connected with the welfare of the State. His Ma jesty's Speech had pledged the House to give the sub ject its most anxious and serious consideration, and that the subject of general retrenchment and imme diate reduction of taxation would form a part of its first labours. Ile, however, was in hopes that in this desire for economy they would not lose sight of the true interests and policy of the country. He would pledge himself to support every practicable species of retrenchment. He could not help expressing his satisfaction to the House, at finding that the spirit of, disaffection which bad appeared in the manufacturing districts some time back, had totally subsided. He roust he a very indifferent observer who could not *-Pe that there still were many too ready to assail the Constituted Authorities, and looked anxiously to Ca: subversion of our excellent Constitution. Their, motives were different, but the end proposed was the , Amu. He thought, so firm was the basis of the Con stitution—so fair its structure—so deep its basis —so, heautifully was it constructed in all its parts, that ' wooer or later all must see its excellence, and rally round it in the hour of danger, so that even the at- Licks of its most inveterate enemies must tend ulti. nialtly to add to its vigour, and eternize its grandeur. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said he should have little to .!bject to the speech of either the Honour a bl e Mover or Secoade r , W the litter bad not intetyrOven in the end of his speech some observations which re flected on the good feeling of Englishmen generally to the Constitution itself. He saw no parties in this country who looked with anxiety to the subversion of the Constitution. He candidly. confessed he sbpuld rather the possession of Turkey, in Europe, were in the Greeks, as an independent people, than in the hands of the Porte. In ancient times, and he was old fashioned enough to think they were better times, it had been the custom to deliberate upon the Speech before an answer was returned to it. This courtesy had been a matter of great convenience, but it had been withdrawn for some years.. For his own part, the Honourable Baronet said, his mind was not capable of taking in all the topics of the Speech be had just heard read, nor had he the faculty of divination, by which he might have - conjectured what the Address would be, and come down with an lAmendment upon it ready cut and dried—(Hear). — Either the Address was a mere ceremony, or else the House was to be taken by surprise, and called upon to give a sweeping approbation of it, under the specious pretences of conciliation and preserving una nimity. He therefore meant to move that the consi deration of the Speech should be postponed until the 'day after to-morrow. He considered the Speech as by no means a satisfactory statement of all the griev ances under which the country laboured. Not only was the agricultural distress to be remedied ; but there had been grievous violations of the law and the Constitution which were far above all pecuniary con siderations—( Hear, hear). The Constitution had been violated in many instances. It was not sufficient for • Ministers to state in the Speech that they meant to preserve economy ; they had expressed the same in tention during the progress of all the late ruinous ex travagances which had reduced thecountry to its pre sent state. In the first speech which the late King had delivered from the Throne the same promisehad been made—indeed it would be difficult to find any Speech where the promise had not been made, and there were as few instances in which it had been kept —(fear). The Ministers ought to have pointed out I when they meant to carry their promised economy into effect, and what description of retrenchment it was that they proposed. He thought they could do nothing in the way of retrenchment which could be so satisfactory as the reduction of the monstrous expense of the Civil List—(Loud cries of Hear, hear). At the time that the country had been suffering un- . der the expenditure, and the Ministers had been playing all kinds of tricks with the currency, they added the further insult of augmenting the Civil List and increasina• the Government salaries— (H ear).— This he would say was mere juggling ; they had got the nation to increase the amount of these salaries, to raise them, as they said, to the suitable dignities of the parties to be provided for, and then, without taking any steps towards the alleviation of the public distresses, they restored the currency to its metallic value, but said not a word of reducing the salaries. This was a most unfeeling disregard of public dis tress, and he wondered that Gentlemen were not ashamed to bring in a Bill by which an overbur thened people were saddled with the payment of their salaries, which they had by these means augmented one-third. At that period when there had been so much talk of restoring the currency to a healthful state, And of the solvency of the Bank, it had been pointed nut that the doubt WAS not whether the Bank would he able to pay, but whether the country could bear it. No Ministers, possessing the slightest feel ing for the public welfare, would have adopted such a measuie without taking into consideration all its necessary accompaniments. There were many per sons who attributed to it the whole of the distresses of the country ; that it had had a most mischievous effect no one could deny ; that it had allied burthens to the oppressed, and that it was full of injustice and inequity ; and for this he would say that the King's Ministers were responsible ; it was their sole doing, and they alone were accountable for it—(Hear, hear). There were many other topics which they might have expected to be s:- oken of—for instance, the state of Ireland; it was impossible to look without the deepest regret at that brave, generous, and kind peo ple, who had been driven into despair by the con s -, duct of this Government towards them. There were evils, than meet which men would rather meet death, and this was the feeling of the people of Ireland. At the Union, that people had been cajoled into a mea sure which had not tended so much to unite, as to separate them ; it was a mere parchment Union. The Speech ought to have explai.:ed to the nation what were the views with regard to Ireland. Some thing should be done; and, as the Honourable Mover had said, conciliation as well as force was necessary. Most oppressive evils had long afflicted that country, and ought to be remedied. It was a scandalous pre tence, on the ground of religion, to exclude them from those equal rights which had been promised them at the Union. Another difficulty under which they laboured was the tithe system. The enforce ment of tithes by blood must be modified ; and the House hay, other duties to perform than merely the imposing of burthens upon the people—(llear, hear). In the year 1782, Ireland had an organ of the public voice—she had her own Parliament. That Parlia ment, it was true, became at last so great a grievance, that the people were glad to get rid - of it; but even then they had so well managed the revenue, that they had a million over and above the debt. There was, nothing in the character of the people which deserved such treatment; they were ingenious, industrious, and energetic : they had been called idle, but while - the hardest and most dangerous labour was per formed by them in this country, that charge was proved to be unfounded. A civil war was carried on in that ccuntry against the distillation of whiskey. Any one who had read Mr. Chichester's pamphlet must have been shocked at the atrocities which were practised in putting down private stills. The en forcement of the Excise Laws had the effect of stir ring up the people, and making them feel that any other injuries were slight in comparison—(feear). —. Nothing had been said in the Speech about Scotland. The Scotch were a wise and sensible people, and moreover were not driven to despair as the Irish were, but they felt that the monstrous power of the Lord Advocate was a source of great oppression—( . Hear). They felt, too, all the evils of the Borough system, which produced the self-election of little Committees; it had the sasneeffect io Scotland as corruption had I hi that House; their property was taken, and they were run into debt—(Hear). When a Noble Lord hetr presented Petitions on this subject, be (the Hon- Baronet) did not support them, because he feared that his countenance might defeat their object. It was unreasonable for any one to expect that the House would set it's face against Scotch Burghs.. The whole of the grievance, and he was happy that it was now felt by the country generally, consisted in the undue influence of Ministers in the House of Commons.— The advecates of economical reform were, in his opi nion, the wildest of men ; they looked for effects without causes ; they sought to gather grapes from thorns, and figs from thistles. Until the House was reformed there could be no hope of any effectual relief. Parties which had formerly existed were now at an end, and there were only two distinctions of men, the Reformists and the Corruptionists. Feeling thus (said the Hon. Baronet), still I am aware of the credit which is due to the indefatigable !Amur and great merit of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen : Nrque ego ausim capid increment Multa cum laude coronam detrahere ! I would not detract from his merit, for I am con vinced that it is by his patient investigation, and lay ing open of particular facts, that he has become the greatest practical Reformer of this day. lam con vinc._%l that nothing could give a chance of economy in public expenditure but an independent constitu tional House of Commons; and if any man looks for it to be produced from any other cause, he is most weak and visionary —(Hear, hear).—The Honourable Baronet then said, that he had intended to conclude with bringing f o rwa r d a mot i on on the subject of Reform, but that had been already done. He felt as strongly upon it as the old Roman who ended all his [speeches by saying, that Carthage ought to be de stroyed. Corruption was our Carthage, and he would never conclude without saying as he said then, that the flonse ought to be reformed—(lfear, hear).—He thought it no more than due from their respect to the Crown and to themselves, that some time should be allowed them for consideration before they were called upon to vote, and he therefore moved—That the Address should be postponed until the day after to-morrc:vr. Mr. HOBHOUSE, in seconding the motion of his Hon. Friend, would trouble the House with a few words upon this subject. Gentlemen would find, upon reference to the Journals, even subsequent to the period mentioned by the Hon. Baronet, that it had been the constant practice not to answer his Ma jesty's Speech until they had full opportunity to con sider it. Without multiplying instances, he would mention one example, which was in some measure Applicable to the present circumstances. In 1697, it had been expected that King William would disband his army ; and when it was found he had not done so, the House, instead of moving the Address, and in stead of returning thanks, voted that the King's army, which then consisted of 7000 men in England, and 12,000 in Ireland, should be disbanded. Those times might be compared with the present; King William was the illustrious deliverer of the country, and yet the house had vindicated the right of deliberating before they answered his Address. They had heard of reductions in the military establishments, but it had not been pointed out of what they consisted.— It appeared from the Gazette, that more than one hundred fresh Commissions had been issued since the last Session—this did not look like retrench ment. They were not, therefore, blindly to vote the Address before they knew what had been done to wards so desirable an ir object—(Hear, hear). — The people did not fear the revolutionary plunderer, but the tax-gatherer—they dreaded that plunderer who came to them with an Act of Parliament in his hand and threatened to drag the bed from under them—(Hear, heat ).—Even in France it was not cus tomary to decide immediately upon such a subject as that before the house. The Speech talked of peace, but that to which it alluded was the peace of the grave. Not one tear was shed over Greece—not one word was spoken for those men who had made the most glorious exertions in vindicating their liberties. The peace had been made by an unnatural conjunc tion of States, between whom Nature had placed in surmountable barriers. The Noble Lord had coupled, in his unholy alliance, Powers the most discordant : he had put Poland under Prussia, Sweden under Norway, Venice under Austria, and Genoa under Sardinia. It was a peace which could not last— it was one specimen of corruption, whether in France, in Italy, or in the blood-stained arena where the Greeks were now gloriously fighting.— When this was fully examined, he believed he should he able to open a system of invasion of the best rights of men. He had looked in vain for some reason for the discontinuance of the practice of printing the Speech before the meeting of the House; he had heard that it was in consequence of a piece of wag gery which had been played off in the year 1797, when a sort of parody of the King's Speech had been made, and blown about in the morning. This he thought was not a sufficient reason for degrading into juggle and farce one of the most important acts of the House of Commons. He hoped his Hon. Col league would insist upon a formal vote upon his motion—( Hear, hear). Mr. GRAT'I'AN expressed the satisfaction he felt at tke notice taken in the Speech of the present state of Ireland. He was convinced the disaffection pre 'railing in Ireland was confined to the few, and that the great body of the people were loyal. The evil arose out of the faults of the present system of Go vernment. He trusted the deliberate attention of Parliament would be directed to this subject, that a system of reconciliation would be adopted towards his unhappy country, and that a whole people would not be punished for the faults of a few. This country and Ireland, were not united ; unfortunately they were divided by religion and by law ; and at present there were two separate interests existing between , the two people. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, in the course of his Parliamentary experience, had never known an Address more adapted to produce conciliation ; and, by acceding to it, he should conceive no Gen tleman pledged to his future conduct. The Ho nourable Baronet and his Colleague *ould pro bably have allowed the Address to pass. but that it gave them an opportunity of delivering their opinion on the subject of Parliamentary Reform.— ' The Hon. Baronet might as well have proposed to postpone the consideration of the Address to that day three months, as it would at least take that time be . . - fore the Rota could come to a decision on the topics of the Speech. should the House reject the Amen - silent, he should then move that on Thursday the House should take into consideration the state °fire land ; and next week he proposed to take the con cluding part of the Speech particularly into consider ation, as it related to agriculture; and in the follow ing week the Chancellor of the Exchequer would state to the House the retrenchments proposed to be adopted; and, as far as could be done in that early part of the Session, he should give a general outline of the state of the country. The House would then see that every attention had been paid to the recom mendation of the House. relative to the subject of economy and retrenchment. The mode he proposed was the only one that could be practically adopted. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said, that he could not possibly agree with those who maintained that person and property was safe in Ireland. Measures at severity could only produce that tranquillity for a moment. It bad been sated at, the Union that the state of Ireland had been dispassionately considered, and that redress *odd beinven by an imperial that could not be given by a local Legislature. But that pledge had never been redeemed. Ministers would not do enough if they came forward with measures of coercion. The noo-residence of large proprietors was a great grievance to Ireland. He could not allow the Address to pass without calling the attention of the House to the state of behind. Europe was never in a more perilous state than at present, and it was not sufficient to pre. serve the peace of Europe, that peace should continue between Russia and the Porte. _ _ - --- The Marquis of LONDONDERRY would to. morrow lay before the House, Dispatches from Marquis Welle sley, that would give the House a mote dear view of the subject. Sir JOHN NEWPORT would only consent to the Address on the understanding that no new measures of coercion would be adopted, unleu a case of necessary should be made out. Mr. BROUGHAM thought the House should not put off, even to the time mentioned by the Noble Lord, the ex pression of some opinion on the agricultural distresses of the country. He was willing, however, to yield to what appeared to be the sense of the House, and reserved what h e h a d to say, not for the time pointed out by the Noble Lord, but the br:ng ing up of the Report to-morrow, when he would propose an Amendment on the distressed state of the country, and explain what appeared to him to be the only remedy for the evil. Afrer the resumption of cash-payments, it appeared to him that the only remedy was a reduction of the taxes. It would not be enough to thew merely good-will on the part of the House cf Commons, they ought to use the power they possess. d of re lieving effectually the existing distress. He therefore wished that some general pledge had been given that night, by assuring the country that no time would he lost, but an immediate inquiry instituted into the subject, with a view to the affording relief.— Retrenchment was the only remedy. He did not mean to say that it could be effectual, for the change to a metallic currency had produced such distress as perhaps no effort of retrenchment could compensate for under the present circumstances of the country. The question was then put and the gallery about to be cleared, when Mr. HU rose. He said, that if the Honourable Baronet's amendment was rejected, he was determined to propose another, to which the House could not refuse their assent, if there was anything like sincerity in it. To a question from the S , Mr. Hum said, his amend ment would be an addition to the Address.--The House then divided : For the Amendment of Sir F. Burdett 5B Against it r 186 Majority against the Amendment —l4B After this division, Mr. HUMB rose and said, If the Honourable Mover and Seconder of the Address would declare that they had not received it from Ministers, and had not delivered it verbatim the same as • they had received it, then he would contend that it was most unreasonable to call upon the House to vote at once an Address so perfectly in unison with the Speech. But if Ministers wrote the Speech and the Address, could there be a greater farce than to find Ministers thus dictate a Speech, and then dictate an An swer to that Speech, with this only difference—that they had the honour of putting the Speech into the mouth of his Majesty, and the Answer into the mouths of two Honourable Members of that House?—(bnigkter)..,-.He did hope, when the cry and prayer of distress came up from the remotest corner of the land, that some ene of those Gentlemen who had uniformly and strenuously opposed the extravagant measures and oppressive encroachments of Ministers—he did expect that some one of them would have moved an Amendment, pledging the House to the most rigorous retrenchment; it was, therefore, only in default of such a proceeding, in a quarter from which he had expected it, and because he was desirous of pledging the House to something, that he would now submit an Amendment.— The Honourable Member then took a comprehensive view of our foreign relations, of the situation of the colonies, of our conduct towards the Greeks, and of the internal state of the country. In the Speech, the colonies were said to be flourish ing. Ile, from what he knew, denied it, and regretted that the House should have so hastily admitted what was not the fact. With regard to out foreign relations, it would not be many days before he would submit the conduct of Government to the consideration of the House—conduct that was disgrace ful on their part as Christians, and abominable as men. He alluded to their conduct in favour of the Turks. But there was another circumstance—an omission in the Speech, to which he would only allude. This was the first instance since England bad a public Ministry, that the death of the first subject in the realm was passed over unnoticed in the Speech from the Throne. She had been persecuted unto death—she had been persecuted even after death—(Hear, hear).—He hoped soon to find the circumstances to which he alluded more seriously investigated— (Hear, hear).—But he felt himself bound, by the course which he had taken, to have said so much. No act, then, like this omission was ever done by a Ministry before. Next as to the visit to Ireland ; he for one had extremely rejoiced at that visit. Ile hoped that the results would be the means of healing the unfortunate differences which separated man from man, and which sowed the seeds of hostility and civil war—(Hear, hear). He would now call attention to another topic. He bad heard a report yesterday evening, that the Treaspry were to borrow £4,000,000 from the Bank for some purpose, perhaps the Right Hon. Gentleman would explain. They were told that this coun try was in a high and commanding situation. He had lately obtained a document from the Secretary of the Treasury,whieh sheered that the Consolidated Fund was £9,000,000 in arrears. If the Bank, then, did not advance money, the dividends could not be paid. The revenue of this country might be progressive, but the Right Hon. Gentleman did everything in his power to prevent the understanding of it. He would stew that reduction could be carried to three times the extent pledged in the last Session of Parliament. He held in his hand a statement which he had draWn up. He would hand one of them to the Right Hon. Gentleman, that he might follow him as he went on— laugh).—( Lord Londonderry at the Same time signified his wish to have a copy, and one was handed to his Lordihip.)--- Ile wished he had had time to make one for every Member. There was one error in it—it was 'a mistake of the printer. It was a statement of the annual receipts and expenditure from 1817 to 1820, ending in January, 1821. In that statement the charges of management were included in the disbarsentenr-... (Hear, hear). — He had included the whole of the money re ceived, but what might be in the hands of the Collect Ors he would not answer for. The receipts were, in £58,000,000 some odds. 57,000,080 57,000,000 1820 - - - 57,000,000 The Revenue of 1820 was only £55,000 more than in 1817. The expenditure was, in 1817 - - - £73,064,000 was ... prepared to 1818 - - - 72,200,000 1819 - - - 73,600,000 1820 - - - 74,900,000 The expenditure thus gradually increased. Although in 1818 the Right Hon. Gentleman had added £ 5,000,000 to the taxes, he would thank the Right Hon. Gentleman to 'hew where that increase took place in the Revenue. The Revenue, then , was e g nd t ture la , st or fou it r w ye as am not. the i ii ll getHon. Gentle. ealll'l ma u n wal ha ho d ato los ard t ue n rit ire than £4,000,000 to the Public. In the come of the Session, be would stew that the Right Hon. Ge:itle man had, since be had had the charge of the Tteesury. ton £153000,000 to the Public. This was no slight charge, and 1817 1818 1819 w