Star. — London, England, 1817-02-27 00:00:00

it ; and it was with deep regret be heard such most important measures now treated with any degree of, ridicule or levity ; because this was not a moment when the feelings of the people should be lightlyl treated. The Noble Lord who had brought forward the Bills had thought proper to declare, that the per formance of this part'nf his duty had cost him much pain ; but Oat any mar. should sport with the feel ings of the people at this peculiar time was a mat ter to him of deep regret And sorrow. He would not say that he wottll ultimately oppose those measures, because if it was proved to be necessary to strengtheo] the hands of the Government. he should consent* . . them ; but he hoped the subject would be maturely considered, particairly a:. it was found that the No -. ble Lord was mistaken as to the law in existence. To consent to take assay the liberty of the subject, and place it ir. any is ends whatever, was what he would never consent to without proofs of the most urgent necessity ; llthough if ti.is necessity did exist there • was no man ~ 11 wliotn he would mare readily bestow such a privilege than the Nol.le Lord who had insti tuted the tneasuie (Lord Sidmouth), because he had restored liberty to the people, and put an end to the system of terror which his predecessors had followed. The only-times in the last century when, in his opi nion, a necessity existed for so severe a nseasuse as the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, %vete the years 1715 and 1745. Then there was undoubtedly good ground for the measure; but •unleirs it could be proved that these times had returned, he would say that nothing could be so destructive to the country; for if administration were determined to disappoint all the people's hopes that they would go into a real system of economy will retrenchment, he would ad. . Snit that it may be necessary to adopt such measures, • and even stronger ones. Sir .W. CURTIS thought the Honourable Gentle roan had reffrcted upon him in a stronger manner than he ought to have done. He had said nothing more than that I.e differe3 in tote from the sentiments of the petition, and he did not see how this was to bee construed as laughing at the feelings of the people. Ile had given his reasons why he differed from those sentiments to the Court itself; and, if the lion. Member pleased, he might read them to.morrow. ' Sir JOHN NEWPORT wished to know prompt ly fr ins the Noble Lord on the apposite side, why • slier he really meant to forward one of these Bills? —He had stated the necessity for the Bill to pre. vent Seditious Meetings,. because the Bill of 1796 had been done away by that of 1793. But his Honourable Friend, who must be demed a most ie . spectable law authority, had the other night contra dieted this, by referring to the Statute-book, and . producing conclusive eeidence to bear him nut in his reasoning. The refutation of this seasoning f ro th - the other side had not satisfied his mind. He was. , sure the House, before they passed the Bill, ought to see hew the law now stood, and he should call for that information before he gave his opinion. If Ministers endeavoured to force the measure without it; he should consider them-as highly wanting in respect to . the House, and if they did not give all the informa tion required, they would fail in the respectable sup port they might otherwise have for the B1;1 in ques tion. He would therefore rreotninend a Committee to inquire what powers were already in existence. . Lord CASTLEREAGH thought the House . might complain of this mode of anticipating the de. baste. For himself he was not prepared at thia time, when the subject before cite !Luise was a petition, to to at large by anticipation into the question of the : bills. He would only say a word 011 a strong mis .. eoneeption of the Right lion. Baronet. He ap peared us rest his whole argument on the Act of 1798, with shish he was not acquainted. [The Noble Lord then repeated the statements he had . • made on a former- evening, to spew bow the . . 4tt of 1798 invalidated that of 1795-1796.] He • was sure the House must feel that nothing could be so - little desirable as that a question of such magni tude as the suspension of the Hibeas Corpus Act should be entangled in any promiscuous and acci. duelist debate. ' , -tdr: PHILLIPS thought it torcessarrto say a fel . words, as the district in which he raided (lan cashiee) fold been particularly referred to in the Re it, es being engaged in treasonable conspiracies. • He could speak t r this , point, having resided in the aeighhisurbood of Manchester item the end of last • Session of Parliament to the commencement of the resent. He was desirous of becomiag unwanted with the state of the neighboothood, and he had found such distreu to prevail,' as could scares y be credited or imagined by any Gentleman who had Mt liver/ in manufacturn districts:. He found, to use the words of the Report, that a few, if enyAsof the . • people were fully employed; that few, if any of those • who were fully employed could • maintain therria• Mem, end if they gained a mere subsistence, they mild act procure clothes; that the Peon' Rates were perfectly Madequate to their 'inpport, when doubled, sod it was not possible to go on increasing • thaw, bagasse Mese who paid them were becoming pauperwtherasidoes. Committees of subscribers were fumed, so go over die district, and there was not a s le poor family that was not visited: Private•cba- 1 had toiled been unwisely active; end it was flit . teumuch to say, that half the time of the opu lent faasilies was employed in the distribtition of food and clothes. Surely such a time as this was a most improper one to deliver the liberties of the pen. ple into the hands of Ministers—(liar, hue, hair.). He did all he could to investigate the truth of the . rumours be bad heard, as to the riotous and sedi tious disposition of the people ; because he knew that tumours, were easily given credit to; and if pea . • • OD would lend a ready ear to charges of sedition • • • ard treason. such charges would exist for ever..., ... Jil•yrie well-disposed Gentlemen whom he knew, wens . ..so much alarmed at the mere reports of outrages, . that they told him they could not sleep in their bed - • But this-- was all the effect of credulity. He sae ; rotting like it—it was reported t'at the mob had -. Istuain man's house down for saying that be would. mike a stand against Reformers; but it was not the ad of.sray mob; and there Was a strong suspicion that the. tenant had burnt it down himself. The kieigarieshi• Gentleman repeated similar converse- Solshi. bads bad with different persons, who were tevriled.throigh their own credulity ; but he said he • ' hatailtheemable to-draw any fact against the pe . • ple..mit of all flay had told him. Even wben.thc Towsi-officers of Manclubtr refused w cal A In4Xl,ilg for petitioning, he, with a vies to ascertain the cha- 1 =ter of the .people, bad passed throng,' them, and be never saw mote order or quietness in his life. He bed made these observations, because tisk part of the country had been reported as most disaffected.— He therefore thought it necessary to - have some evi dence of the character of those petunia who had given such information to Government, or the House must doubt the existence of any conspiracy. He hoped the Committee had made such enquiry ; for, even if they did not suspend the Habeas Corpus Act, but only pass the other Bills, the most serious power would be pot into the hands of the civil officers of the country towns; and he knew enough of those sort of persons to be aware how they would use it. If a meeting were called to petition for a redress of pub lic grievances, it would be termed sedition, and the same term might be applied to a meeting for peti tinning for the removal of Ministers. He thought e there ought to be much mere detailed information given, before the pasting of such Acts. He did not deny tt at some outrages had taken place, in attempts to get wages raised, and throuelt other trifling causes that had always existed; but if on such grounds the Habeas Corpus Act was to be suspended, it might never be restored. Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD considered the Report of the Secret Committee as not only in itself contradictory, but one which required various infor mation to elucidate it. If any one thing more than another was 'calculated to excite alarm, and which had been endeavoured to be explained away, it was the insinuation that possibly some of the higher or ders of society might be implicated in tile conspi racy. He would put.it to the sense of the I-I, , use, whether the right of proceeding to legislate on the suspension of the rights and liberties of the subject should be countenanced, without calling on Government explicitly to explain the fact, whether du re were any of the higher orders concerned in the conspi:acy or not ? If it was merely a common place assertion that had ,been introduced, or was only a part of that same slovenly language that ChatiCte- need the rest of the 'Report, and if Ministers now meant to state that there was not any one of the higher orders implicated, he would be satisfied if they would say so. But he called on them to state the fact explicitly it it wete so ; r it not, explicitly to retract the expression, that the House might not pro ceed in the dark— (Hear iscor, hear) ale also wished to understand whether any of the middle classes were known to be engaged in any conspiracy, for when he considered that all precise information was withheld, when all the charges were vague, and when measures as extensive and severe as ever were adopted were about to be put in force, he would say that some thing more was required than the mere Report, be fore the House should consent to them. There could be but one general spirit of indignation and detesta tion in the country on the atrocious outrage against ; the person of the Prince Regent exercising the soy.- ' reign authority; but he conceived that the ordinary laws of this country, and the union amongst all per , sons possessed of property, together with our enor mous military establishment, were sufficient to pro . tea us againitany attempts of the seditious and tur . bulcut portion of the people. Mr. WROTTESLEY was sorry the.grand ques. Lion had been thus anticipated, as it could lead to no good. But the Honourable Member opposite (Mr. p!iillips) had given a description of Manchester, and he felt extremely sore that that part of the country should have been mentioned in the Committee. NJ I man was unaware or unconcerned at the general dis-. 4 . tress, which was not peculiar to Manchester, but a'f- i , fected every part of the country. The county 01 Stafford, with which he was connected, was in the, same distress as Manchester, and the gentry had done as much for the relief of the people as those of any other part. But he would tell the Honourable Gen. tleman, that the people of that quarter had not been r led into the same excesses as tbose of Manchester.l , When those Gentlemen were so kind as to send from their seat of eloquence . their perambulating orators, . at so much a-day, into other counties, where the'peo ple had no idea of disloyalty, it was not to be. won dered if they bad made some alteration-in the opi . nionrOf Asir *editors. One, of these gentry was di ' tutted from Manchester to Newcastle-under-Lyre, and was to have 245. 6d. for his patriotic labours I These orators, the friends of the Honourable Gentle man opposite—(Lesolcrier of Hear, hear,)—had done, 'I however, little or nothing in Staffordshire, where the I people had no other feeling than that of being grate. ful to their benefactors; and the one who came to Newcastle hod been literally hooted out of the town. He hoped the Honourable Gentleman would con- Kis* to keep these persons quiet in his own county. and not send them into ethers. Mr. PONSONBY--“ I have heard with astonish ment the charges which the Honourable Gentleman opposite has made against any Honourable Friend. I have beard them with peculiar astonishment, be cause, for many years, the Hon. Gentleman adopted the political sentiments of the individual whom he has now attacked —(Near, hear.) At thaj- time he saw nothing improper in my Hon. Friend's political tenets—lie saw no inclination in my Hon. Friend to recommend disloyalty to others, as was now insin.ua ted—(lieor. hear, fries the Ministerial Beadier.) It surely mast be recollected that the Hon. Member called those persons, who, he said, were creating dis content in the country, the friends of the Honourable, Gentleman to whom he particularly addressed him; self —(Rear. hear.) I recollect when he had a more favoutatele opinion of my Honourable Friend's prin ciples; and I am sorry it was not, till he got on the other side of the House, till he pinned himself close behind the backs of his -Majestp's Ministers, that he discovered my Honourable Friqnd'a sentiments to be impropera--(Hear, hear.) I will say • that .he is as loyal as the Hon. Gentleman, or as any of his proudest or meanest connections•rilieor, hear.) Nn man in this country, let him arrive at what dignity he may, willvarry to that dignity an honester heart or a More independent spirit—(Near, hear.) I am sure the Hon. Gentleman, when be considers what he has said, will be sorry for it." Mr. WROTTESLEY" If, in the heat of ob. serration, I said any thing that attributed to the Honourable Gentleman that he was connected with the persons to whom I alluded, I'd° assure him, um my honour. I did not intend it. He was the very last person I coald conceive cooperated with such indi viduals." . . -Mr. PHILLIPS—is The Honourable Seitlenien has attributed to me a degree ci serenest relativ.. to I die rumours pmpagated about Manchester. I feel ne more soreness about that place than I do about Birmingham or any other town. I spoke of my own 1 neighbourhood,.and I did so, because Iwas acquain- I ted with persons who were employed on Committees ' to alleviate the wants of the distressed, and from whom I had the most accurate report of that distress." Mr. BROUGHAM—. 6 The very well-merited observation which was inflicted en the speech of the Hon. Gentleman by my Right Hon. Friend, has pre vented us from the necessity of discussing one part I of it—that part in which the Hon. Gentleman called f the emissaries of sedition the friends of the Hon. Member who sits near me. That is put an end to by the observations which the expression has called forth, and by the calm and sober reflection of the *lan. Gentleman himself. But there is another part of his speech which deserves notice. because it con tains the misrepresentation of a fact, and one of a very material nature, as being the testimony of a Gentleman, coming from the vicinage of a pia. e Ipnken of as bein4 foremost in acts of insubordina tinn, and contradicting the secret, as well as vague and uncertain evidence, on which that statement is founded. That fact, when we consider the know ledge and undoubted veracity of the Gentleman who relates it, will, I liepe, have that weight and importance in the minds of all men, which is justly due to it. The Hen. Member opposite says, 6 Man chester is not the only place distressed—other dis tricts are equally aeitcted. Staffordshire is visited by misery--and it would he well it the people of Manchester belt.teed as Inietly ender their misfor tunes as the StaTirdshire people do.' Now, what did the Honourable Gentleraan near me say ? That Manchester was perfectly quiet—that the greaten regularity prevailed—that, to use a homely phrase, 6 every thing WAS so still, you might hear a rat stir."' —(4100.) ' Sir GILBERT HEATHCOTE was satisfied that the present laws were perfectly adequate to the security of the country, and therefore such eztreme measures as were now proposed were unnecessary. If the danger was so great, why had not Parliament assetnbled sooner ?- 7 Tha Petition from London WAS then altered to lie on the table. SUSPENSION or TUS HABEAS CORPUS ACT. Lord CASTLEREAGH, without any prefatory observation, moved the first reading of the Bill to enable his Majesty to secure and detain in custody All persoas suspected of harbouring traitorous intentions against his Majesty's'person and Government. The question having bees put from,the Chair, Mr. BENNETT rose and said, he took the ear- lieu opportunity of expressing his determination to resist this measure, which formed a prominent part of the system pursued and recommended by his Ma jesty's Ministers. He was much surprised, after what had passed in that House during the evening—alter what had occtscred on ' preceding evenings—that t h e Noble Lord had thought fit to bring forward this Sill, as a matter of course, without saying one sylla ' ble on the subject to which it related. He was the last man, if the Constitution were really in danger, ' that wzu.id refuse extensive powers to the Executive Government—but, he . was also the last man who wi.uld grant such powers, unless a case of the strongest necessity were clearly made out. He asked of the House, whether, in this instance, any ease were made out at all ? On the object of the kept' it was necessary to say a few words, because, on the statements contained in it, the measure now before the Hotise was solely' grounde.!; and, in order to chew that there was no necessity for the measure, he was obliged to discredit that Report. He assured his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Ponsonby)s and those who, nofortunately for themiclves and for the coun try, were led to sit in the same Chamber with the Noble Lord, that, in doing this, he meant nothing personally disrespectful to them. He was surprised, Indeed, that his Right Hon. Friend, after his expe rience of the Noble L'ird, had become a Member of the Committee. He had believed him to be the last man wilt:would conceive In inselfin safety, when placed I in the same room with fris Lordship—(4 laugh).— He must surely Lave recollected, %ltt at the end of the wet. the Noble Lord bad indeccd hint to vote for an Address, by stating that it did not 'ple.ige the House to any thing, at the very moment that lie had in his pocket.* copy of the Declaration of the Allies,l to which this Government had agreed. iHe (Mr. (Bennett) cogently would not have trusted his cha racter with the Noble Lord if he had been named on the Committee. He should now proceed to she* that the Reports of Committee.; had frequently turned out to be erroneous. A Report was drawn up by a Committee in 1791, a great year of plots, which set forth that there WAS a detestable and traitorous eon. spiracy against the Government. Persons suspected were arrested—ther.were hrovglit to 'trial, and the Jury, ih the face of Parliament, in the teeth of the Retort. dtel.ired that these men weie not guilty of treason. Them two a Report in 1812—but 'when the allegations 'contaiiied ie it came to be tries i baore twelve men on their oaths, it wa-, lcund that nine. tenths of the statements which it comprised were un founded. HI recollected his lamented friend, the late Mr. %N./nib:T*4.lW Upclietlli. divided the Coin mittee on that occasion, in censeqiiente of certain evi. dente that was offered to be adduced. Ile now asked his Right Honourable Friend (Mr.Ponsonhy) wise. they, on this occasion, any witnesses were examined He believed there was not one but the Lord Advo. care of Scotland, whb did nothing mere than pro. duce a paper. It certainly appeared, in 1812, that the person: whom the Government employed sere the great agents who stimulated the people to ex cesses. At a meeting composed of forty Ltdd;tes, not lees than ten were Militiamen. One of them said, la Let us burn the Poof-house."--ei What!" obser eed one of the misguided society, 46 would you burn the poor people ?' Yes," answered the Govern. meat agent, .0 we will do any thing to effect mis chief.' The first part of the Report to which he should refer was that in which it was stated, 44 that Most blasphemous pamphlets were circulated amongst the public by certain 'persons connected with the So cieties *Road to." No man detested or reprobated such works more than he did; but where were the Attorney and Solicitor General —where were the Ilaws I—why were they not put in force against those who thus offentled ?—(Keee, hear.) The Attorney. General well knew that there was no case which he, :ould' lay before a J.uri.witli a greater certainty of obtaining a verdict. than a case of blaspherny,p(heirvi) And was it to be eeditred, bee2nse at Attranerfle seral would not do his duty, or was afraid ts de it, that the liberties of the people were to be abrope:eio. (ilear, hear.) The next clause in this indictm ent against the People of England (called a Reprrt), sea t that in which the distresses of the people were elle. dcd to. There was no shiliculry in finding. tint that distress, thanks to the systensWisich here the n ame of Pitt —of him who introduced it—and which pro. doirel penury and distress of the roost dread.EuLnature. The dance which linewed, set fre . rtli; l rihat, by it sudden rising in the night, the soldiers were to he surprised and overpowered." Why, how was this possible ? Barracks were found in many quarters of the toren—and, was it to be supposed that men were to grow up, in the moment, to attack them? Were men to arise in the way stated in the fable of anti. quity—(when teeth were sown, and armed men sprang from the ground)—to overwhelm a reguLtrly organised force ?—(Hear, hear.)-- by the crni:r. bier, sleepy as they were, would give the alarm. Tl :e in ilconicri:s, it appeared, were next to seize tl:e art_ lery, and blew up the bridges Who were to p er . form these exploits? Six men, in a waggon, ebb a stocking full of ammunition 1— (Hear, krar.)—('hi reminded him of the attack on the Castle of Qa e ilb s . lurgh (which, perhaps, would be better understood by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, Mr Canines., than by the generality of Members), of witch it was the complete counterpart. The time, the force, th e personages employed, Were perfectly suite,' to the 'attack he had alluded to. lime, day-li,tht—E n t r six men in a waggon. v..ith a stocking full cf ammo. nition—to do what ? attack the Tow r. .tratiisoned and supplied with arms—tis teal the Bank, Funded as it was by soldiery—to Mew * Initlges— to occupy the barracks— (Hear, ke , 7r .)..„ Was slich stud and tralb to be atten,:c4l to uitti tience ? It notli;ng else appa:cLl in tfte ili , port to tliscrodit it, this passage was quite sulleietr. Nen he came to the part in which pikes were said to 11;i7e been discovered. He recollected the pikes is 1;4. At that period, a:1 the Magistra!es, with their utmost vigilance, found out eight tailors and sr.e puke, in Tooley-street, in the Borough.— (Lauj&ter.).—Never could Mr. Justice Graham's conduct, on that occa sion, be forgotten. No fond and tender mover ewer looked on her first-born child with more delight, than he looked on that pike. The same false pretences were now had recourse to, in order to alarm the teountry. In 1794, the exchequer ot the conspirators boasted of the sum of e€ 9. I6s. ; at present, it we're: ed, they. had amassed ,BlD—so that, during this long lapse of time, they had become four shillings richer. (I.aughkr.)—He supposed it would be said, 014 the military chest had been seized, And that this in crease was Liken as a drnit. It was a shame that such a statement should be made for the purpose ot influen cing leirlianient to tAke away, tor a time, the libeit.: ci the subject. The next sentence to which lie caked tee attention et the (louse, was that in which it arcs stated, " that few, if any el the higher orders, or of the reie. dle classes of society, were eegirged in this conspiracy." He knew not whose was the clumsy hand that street up this Report ; but this he did knew, that a more scandalous assertion never was made. He dared the Ni ble Lord opposite to . say, that there was one e!o -bleman. or Gentleman, cr one individual, belonging tathe middle order ot society, Olt was implieeted in this conspiracy, es it. was cath d! L the Merle Lerd said 44 Ne" he would then assert, that the Com mittee bad signed their names, tier the worst porrees, to a distinct tAlseltood—( Cries cf .. Order 1 Order !") His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Yonsonby) said, the other night, that there was not one pereon of this di scription—iind that, if there were, they would haze boldly stated his name. It this were the case, ven what contempt must they look on the Report e-- Were they to be put off w;te thesheffie which eel attempted elsewhere? Was there a com.ot r:'• placed? WAs'a break wanting ? Had a word `o"'7l left out ? or had one word been substituted t,r lee -1 tiler I By which nt . these contrivances was this cz lumninus paragraph to be explained away l—(Hear, hear, hear.) . 1 te whole people were arraigned, bet these who arraigned them, had not the boldness 13 Kate their accusations in direct term% Tim Report was such stash that he would trample it under his feet.—(Here the llennurable Member flung the lete poi ton the ground.) It this liter were passed, le oliget be taken and shut up at' the pleasure of ilat Nubie Lord, who told then,, that they were accoete wee to GOD and man for the ill consequences which their proceedings would engender, because they wished to check profusion, and to do temeteine al alleviate the sufferings 'ot the people. It thnee to loved best were to demand these powers, he wouil not grant them, unless a most decided case wen made out. How, then, could he, on such a Report, grant extraordinary powers to these who were tr;a:.- nals already—,whose haads were imbrued in the Illood of their country l— ( Ilear, hear, Order, order.) Lord CASTLEREAGH—" I call on the Hee. Gentleman to name the individuals in this Oasts whom he charges with criminality ?" Mr. BENNETT...." The Noble Lord may tare down my wends if he pleeses. I charge the elene bets of his Majesty's Government—who held shuts i Lions during a former Administration—l charge them with having, in the exercise of power:similar to shots %hide the present Bill will grant, abused their tics criminally, and then demanded a bill of indemnity '0 cover their delinquencies !"-(Near, hear.) Lord cAsTLER-EAGI-1—" I beg to üb•erve .e the Honourable Gentlemen, that I have ra.vm - a c , tl criminally—that 1 have not imbrued ray blnds ::-.:.e blood et my country ; and it he asserts this, 1:e v.• setts that which is 'Ave—(lkar, hear.) Lord MILTON rose to order. He I,7i:bed !e. -- cal to the Neble Lord's recollection, that what tst Hcaonrable Gentleman had said, was not that " it had crimitay imbrued his bands in the blond ot !. country".—but that he had acted criminally, "ii,'(; the law, and hid obtained an Act of Inlemnit; ") screen himielf Isom the cc:mem:elm of that crime tiality. The t'svii propositions were perfectly disti.-r% Lord 4 AsTLEREAGII—" Criminality, I Sr• dental - A, ties imputed to toe, of that desert:lee', for v::::ch I might have been brought to ashes, b e , t r for the Ilf“n•aticin of a 13:11 o' lndetneity. 11A7. '• such crinsiestiiiy wee ire pu led to me, it is a falseheej •• and if it be said, that, as a Member of the le •::: Cozwittee, I acted otherwise than as circurtictr• ' watranted me, it .ts .al it) a fel sebood ---( Mr. he e ‘• I. Mr. yo iqc E said, the Ilonourahl (enter , e:' had btou:;1,1 a cili:ii:i:,l . c1 , :.. , ; ; e. againA 1 ..:s ' .- , . .