Star. — London, England, 1817-06-17 00:00:00

I i 1 1 r 1 I . i t . i r r 1 1 I _.. I 1 1 i , , , PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 16. ' The cases of •' White •. Ballantyne," and of a Geddes v. Prinnington," being taken into final consideration, their Lord. ships' dm sion vra i, to Remit the former, and to Affirm the latter, without casts. In the cause of “ Duff ♦. Browne," Counsel were heard In part-- F •nlier hearing postponed. The Royal Assent was declared by Commission 'a the Poor's Employment Bill, the Metropolis Paring. Owens' an d B a i ley ' s Divorce Bills, the stone Bottles Dui, and the Glasgow Gas Lights Bill.. - •• • The Lords Commissioners were, the 1.0113 the Earl of WzriciteLscn, and the Earl of Suarrssaus v. Their Lordships then adjourned for some time during pleasure. On the resuming of the House, after snore routine business • tad been diiiposed of, • srrangement, as proposed by the Earl of LIVELPOOL, was ordered accos dougly. reitsoNs CONFINED UNDER THE HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION. tail GROSVENOR before their Lordships en tered upon the Order of the Day, moved for the pro duction of a List of the Names of the Persons con fined under the alysve authority, di ,tinguishing their cases, &c. This information his Lordship conceived proper to be afforded, as tending to give a clear idea •.1 the actual state of the.conetry, with reference to tshich, a measure of the most alarming importance a Constitutional point of view was about to be pro. pied. And he thought that the production would evince that which he had aa aleng asserted to be • well founded, namely, that no persons of any consi cheration wha . tever had been obnoxious to the execc fon of the Suspension Act. Lord ROLLE argued against the desired produc.' tints, as leading to T',9 advantage, and only tending ta ilia ease the embarrassed state of the country. He was satisfied of the necessity of the measure, and with the administration of the Act by his Majesty's Government. He had supported them in adopting the measure, and • should continue so to •do, unleu they sh mild abuse the power entrusted to them ; in which case, he should be one of the first then to stand up in his place in the House and oppose the abuse. H: deprecated some of the discussions which had team place on these subjects, and stattJ his opi nion, that the language held on- these occasions by Noble Lords opposite, and by those who acted with them, only tended to countenance and encourage the disaffected in their misconduct, and was therefore productive of the most injurious effects. Ertl GREY sand he entetta'ned a very different opinion AS to the expediency of the measures adverted to frOm the Noble Lord on the cross bench (Rolle), and he thought them rather calculated to increase than remedy the evil complained of. He could not, however, suffer a sentin.ent held by that Noble Lord to pass without observation. He mutt, therefore, in direct contradiction to the opinion of that Noble Lord, aver, that there were no persons of considera. • tien or of influence in the country in connection with tl em, nor one who in any way afforded them the least countenance, encouragement, or sup port. For his own part, he thqught worse of the present than of the former measure ; but he must censure what the Noble Lord kid said as to the mode in which Noble Lords or othets tholiVit proper to es. press theinselvesin the discharge of Voir Parlinmen-, tary duties, as inconsistent with the freedom of de. • .bate in that Hotise. Neither he nor any of hit Noble Fiends were to be told, that in consequence of any thing they might say to the discharge of their public • --duties, they were to be field answerable for what other persons may have done ; and he spoke to the ' Noble Lord's face and teeth, that the charge was . ! .falsnand unfounded, and he dared him to prove the contrary. It was •unbecoming in any Member to ' make such an assertion. The Noble Lord who spoke • of the indeperidence'of his own conduct, and of his intention, whenever his Majesty's Government should deviate froM whit bethought right, that he would be the fist boldly to•tell them so. But frorA.what it ' 61l in Ins (Lord Grey's) lot to Optic, tlO - boldness of the Noble Lord had been exerted duthig the long . course of thirty years, alwa)s in support. ,, ...power ! , L.,w He never knew him to oppose a single Oe of • the Government in all .the multifarious con us of . . lire Einpire„duriog that long interval. " With these few observations 1: shall leave the Noble Peer, tii ci repealing, that when he says that eel tain Members() this House, by their speeches in their places, coun tenance disaffection, or sedition, or treason, he says not only what is a gross violation of the freedom of 1 discUision, but utterly, and in all its parts, false and I unfounded." Lord KOLLE, in explanation, observed, that • what he had said, respected the injurious influence upon the minds of the public,' produced by certain speeches in that - House. He made no particular al luston to the Noble Earl, but it the cap fitted him, he was welc. me to wear it I—that was all the answer be had to give uptin that point ; but he would repeat, that sO long as lie thought his Majesty's Government acted for tho good of the public, it should have his support. He wanted nothing from it, nor did he, like some others, expect rosy situation in the Govern ment ; and be was still of the opinion, that if ottani wit, prevailed in that House, in endeavouring to settle the tumults which prevail in the country, tittle danger need be apprehended from them. - Earl GREY Slimily replied, that in answer to the noble Lot d's elegant phraseolok of the cap fitting him, as well as to the insinuation of his speeches, and those of some who acted witn him, being calculated to vottntenance and encourage the traitorous and dis- affectsd, be had only to expless his positive and ' UM/ Conte topt. Viscount SIDMOUTH expressed his suprise that the Noble L. rd had not given notice of his motion. • . Lord GROYESNOR therefore agreed to postpone it until to-m.srow. SUSPENSION OP THE HABEAS CORPUS ACT. The Order of 'the Day, upon which their Lord ships were summoned, respecting the Bill for conti nuing the above measure, being lead, . Viscount SI DMOUTH rose and addiessed their Lordships upon the subject. He came forward to piess'the adoption of the measure, on Its firm con viction of its positive and urgent t.ecessity. It was not .110 We vet submitted to .Variiarnent without an . ade-' quate examination as to the grounds upon which it was proposed—tbe course adopted on a sunii..r tic easiest in lin early . jiart of the war,' when A Bat for contimilog iiieSuspension Act was proposed without, aiiy inevions inquiry, or nevi...facts being submitted to Patliantent.. Not that be nteAtit to impugn the cunt "duet of that Administrotion, or of the Illustrious person then at its bead, in so doing, as doubtless the circumstances of the country at the time justified that. Course of proceeding. The. Noble Secretary of State then entered upon a specification of the grounds oil which be urged the adoption of the Continuation Dill, in the course of which he . made frequent refe rence to thy Report of the Secret Committee, from which he made various quotations. He exhibited the leading and most important features - Of the. Re i port, and expatiated thereon with great clearness and 1 ability. He contended, from the beneficial tendency and effect of the present suspension, to which much of that portion of tranquillity which prevailed in many parts of the kingdom, was chiefly to be ;Ma -1 bused. Much of the state of the country was well known to their Lordships, as well as the undoubted beneficial effects of the existing measure of Suspen sion. Tiny should take the benefit of their experi ence—they should not only feel the immediate salu tary consequence of the Suspension, but recollect the great preventive ben it operated on former occa sions, especially in the cases of the years 1794 and 1795. From the consideration of all these circum stances, and with the knowledge he possessed of - the actual and immediate state of the country, he felt it his imperious duty, ender the firm conviction of the necessity of the measure, to move that tie Bill be now read the second time. Lord ERSKINE was equally desirous with his Noble Friend, who proposed this measure, to look the dangers of the country full in the face; but he was convinced the best way to avert these would be, not by adopting the proposed measure, bet be thoroughly and fearlestiv inquirirg into the causes which led to the present . cheastrous state of the cottr try. The causes which induced the present unhappy condition of the poor should be particularly inquired into; but instead of sedulously turning their atten tion to that subject, it had been entirely passed over; and a course of measures adopted, which, instead of tending to relieve, only served to aggravate the evils they had to complain of. What were the causes of the present distress ? He believed it to arise froui the - sudden•change ul circumstances after a long war, from the check that had been given to commerce, and the corresponding check to labour, by which numbers were deprived of the means of making a livelihood. The Committee in their Report admitted the operation of these causes upon the minds of the people. They produced, as it was natural they should, a powerful degree of irritation. What direction had that initation taken ? Its direction was this. The people thought that all their evils and calamities arose from not hiving a sufficient practical controul in . both Houses of Parliameat. The people had a right to hold this opinion. Men who reflected the highest honour both on their age and country, enter tained the same. This was the main'direction taken by the irregular spirit which influenced the country at present. This spirit, however, or its direction was not attended to. So far from taking the subject of Parliamentary Reform into serious consideration, it was got rid of by greater majorities than upon any former occasion. He did net condemn Parliament for this, he merely meant to state that he lucked upon the public spirit thus directed, and thus disappointed, as the source of the existing disturbances. Py - tler refusal of emoting into the question, the people were led, and would continue to be led more and more, under thelnEuence of bad men. The Report itself stated that one of the meetings which was represented as most dangerous, assembled for the purpose of peti. tinning ler a Reform in Parliament. It was the prin cipal cause of discontent. and yet a refusal was given even to inquire into that source of irritation, and to ascertain whether it might nut in some degree be re moved ? The Noble l o ord (Sidmouth) called upon them to be guided by experience. He (Lord Erskine) had experience enough upon the subject, and the re sult or it was, a conviction that the suspension of the liberties at the people was not now, or at other pe. riods alluded to, the remedy that should here been applied. if the . people soon into their _minds that the distresses were connected with .the A.dministra lion, that feeling would every day grow stronger, unless the subject was inquired into. The suspen sion of the Hanes. Corpus would not remove it. A remedy for the stone or the gravel should not be ministered to a person troubled only with a sore throat. The cure applied to the country did not se move the disease. The patient then should either .change his medicine or his physician—(4l laqh.)— The report of the Committee allowed that the vigio lance of the Magistrates, with the co-operation otthe Yeomanry. had put down snitch of the evil. They should continue to use the same means, .and be had no clutibt they would be found' sufficient. Th.: Doke of MONTROSE could not agree in the principle laid down by the Noble Lord who bad just sat down. He could ttmeniber the riots in the ii year 1780. He then saw the tows: on fire in three or four different places. In the ev e ning it. was thought necessary to put a stop to these riots, but it -was put down with great loss of blood. But who can venture to say that those rioti -should nor have been prevented ? It was the *tiny of Ministers who're prevented them if it was in their power. If the Mi. ' nisters bad felt themselves justified, the Whole of the basineu would have been put an end to on the 2d.' The suspension of the 1-I.lbeas Corpus Act, so tar from its being a measure to save the Governines.t and the Parliament, was in fact an act of humanity ; it was to save the lives of the people and to prevent their becoming the victims of certain individual., who were leading them on -and endeavouring to rouse diem to madness. It was•better to confine them fur a term rather than sutler them to go on. Lail GROSVENUIt contended, that the farther suspension ot the Habeas Corpus Act wbUld increase the spirit of resentment already. felt in thii country towards its ruler. We were now in a state of puce, the government of the cuonuy was in the possession of a large military force—they had the happiness or being upportesi by a large ni.juriii" in butt Woes. of Peiliecuento theme coold be no necessity for having . Moline to such. a measure. Wath regard to the Report, he eclihowlidged it to be a mach inure can did one than had been presented on the former oc casion, but he saw no reason why , it bad nut been given or t h e same evidenie, ood he must say, that lie never saw a Report which contained sonitico 4.1 - inference and so little of fact. ' Little wits to be seen that * did . not sprang Isom, tile spies employed by Go virnnicm. He .bowed, that occasionally reference, I must be had to persons ot that description, but it had been the east in all tittles past as well as in all times' **sent, that whin such persons were relied upon, . the Government was despotic, and he had no hesita. tion in saying, that the views of the Government of this country were directed to despotism, because it was clear that their conduct could not bear inspection.— There could be no occasion to employ such wretches if the powers of Government had not been occa sionally too much abused. If the Constitution were properly administered it would be perfectly unneces sary to have recourse to such powers iti support of it. As to the disturbances since the last Report, however numerous they had been, they had been put down without resorting to the application of the sus. pension. The Committee had given it as their opi nion, that the spies of Government had been greatly the means of exciting the disturbances : was this the criterion of the state of the country ? It was said, that the talk was no longer of reform but of revolu tion. But was it not probable, that those violent ex pressions—this cry of making Manchester another Moscow, WAS to divert the attention of the Magi strates ; is it not extremely probable that their ex pressions might have emanated from the very spies who made them known to the Government? (fletsr.) —some alarm might have arisen in the minds of a fey,. individuals, and they might have proposed this Act as a partial security to themselves, but was that a reason why a law should be passed so palpably dangerous to the liberties of the country ? The Noble Viscount (Sidmouth) had said, with a great deal of emphasis, that in the present state or the cminitr. it was impossible to 'educe the niiiit4ry establ..hment with a proper view to its safety ; but i it was idle to say, that all this military force was for the purpose of keeping down this part;al dis..ffection,, when we had seventeen or eighteen thousand Yeo manry Cavalry, and if that was not sufficient, so as to secure any old woman from feeling alarm, let that force he enlarged. He recollected that the Noble Lord at the head of his Majesty's Councils, when the Sinecure Bill was read, had proposed that it should be again read that day three months ; but as to this Bill—this monstrous and atrocious Bill, he ( Lord Grosvenor) should propose that it be rejected. Was the strenuous opposition of the Noble and Le erned Lord to the former measure in conformity to the wishes of his master—and it it was so upon that oc casion, was it so now when the object was despotism' Was not the Insurrection Act strong enough ? Was not the Sedition Act. strong enough ? Were there not sufficient powers • when • the Government could confine any person brought before them for publish ing a work ? He should move as an amendment in the Committee—" That the present Bill shall not ex tend beyond the duration of the present Parliament." This would prevent the Ministers from availing them of the means of extending their present enormous towers, and would put the opinion which he formed of them to the test. They might say, that it dud not enter into their minds, but let them beware of a re action, it they wish to save the country from impen ding horrors. Lord REDESDALE said, that his views of the subject were directly contrary to those of the Noble Lord who had just sat down. So far from consider ing it as a dangerous ripechent, he was satisfied it would create a p:-east and general confidence. He would support the measure, not only because he. thought it was necessary, but because he was con vinced it was necessary. It had been stated to their Lordships, in this and the former Reports, that a system of unexampled secrecy now prevetiled... In the conspiracy of 1793, for such he should continue Ito call it, the parties had fair correspondence, whereas ntivtghe conspirators met privately in houses, which they would nut do, were the affair so harmless as some Noble Lords supposed it. It was said, that no pet sons of property were concerned in the conspiracy. Why, he Would be surprised if there were, when the great object of the Societies was to take money from those who had it. and give it to those wire had none. He remembered the time when a Gentleman was called on to cry up " Wilkes and Liberty !" in going down the Strand : the gentleman addressed the mob, telling them that he could not understand their re. quest, as he had always taken the liberty of calling things as, he pleased " 914? t, crieCthe mob, " here's A rascal; down with lihn !" • The unfortunate gen tleman was then knocked down ; and this 'hewed the name of the liberty •Which was wanted by such men, namely, that of knocking down whatever stood . .in their way. What had stopped the measures in contemplation but the existence of the very Act %hose continuation he now contended for ? The Measure bad been adopted in the best of times, and; • indeed, had once maintained the House of Hanover on the Throne. Some people thought, however, that the Writ of Habeas Corpus was wholly suspended by the present Act, whereas it was suspended only in particular eases. If their Lordships suffered. the rage of some persons to be unconfined, they would speedily bring ruin on their country. Not less mischievous was the advice that had been given of yielding to the Petitions of the People fur Universal Suffrage, and Triennial Parliaments ; for if those were grant- rd, the ruin of the Constitution would follow. Their Lordships must be aware that something was intend ed to be obtained from the Government by force ; and it was their duty to meet and prevent, instead tit resisting such force, whose object was destruction. It was under these circumstances, and in order to prevent that overturning of the Government, which must end, as such overuirows always did, to a mili tary despotism, that he gave his consent to the Bill It was to enable their Lordships to deliberate, in;- r.eack of being overawed by an infuriated assemblage, as in. the year 1780, that they might deliberate and determine with honour to themselves and advantage tothe country. Lord KING was surprised that the Noble Lord should have so stigmatised Lord George Gordon's, mob, which was a Nu, Popery mob. He did not think that the present danger WAS such as to demand the Suspension of die-Habeas Corpus Law. It there had existed a plot, with preparations and leaders, then Parliament might be called upon to suspend the law ; but no such preparations were discovered, and, indeed, be was convinced that informers were em ployed by Government to take advantage of the distresses qt the people. Ike was tetanall that the • voting of the Suspen s ion, was only a prelude to an itislehinte vote to tlitriatne effect, and would increase that discontent which it Was meant to reared). — If, by continuing the Suspension Act, they taught the Reelo.e tl.at law was thei: ccrinoo crery. ir . • stead or its being their common hended that the result would be a r to the Laws and Institutions whic'l prized. _ _ Earl GREY thought the subject bate so portentous to the libe r ti es o f under every disadvantage he most favour of the Constitution. lie was ~sett dine posed to counteract the designs-of thee,e'seo . • , %twos to convert the present severe distress iiittrat i a oe , a . tton of a measure which, never had b: en adore.. b: . t under the most evident and cogent necessity-e 4 sure which sot rendered the liberties of the penele intts the hands of Ministers. What was the li:unreel th e danger ? It arose from severe distre s s, which ttle dered the minds of the sufferers liable to be ,ve rked upon by artful and designing men. Bat Was r e danger equal to what it was in any former time w. a similar measure was adopted ? Healed ,sdia aaa former occasion, that it was absurd and ridiculous to compare the danger with that which existed at it, anent periods of the last century, when the nea t eat ,. siderabk personr in this and the other Huti se to t can. Hamelin took an active alert with the oisaffectot ? Yet the Habeas Corpus Act was then only sespended fcr six months, even when the con,airaosi s ru 171,3 save assisted by a foreign force, when tl.e r « I t : of the Pretender was a favourite toast with public hcsQies then he could conceive a d angar tc have aistra, which m ight have given the Gn , eratllellt All t rine fcr a measure of such :igaur. Yet so strong ae as the feeling, that it w.,s not carried without tion. He would not deny that the coontay great danger, laut in his conscienee he hell-v,.1 • remedy proposed rather calculated to iecrease he ir ritation than to diminish it by its rigour. We 'out triumphantly succeeded fie the result n! the war ant the consequence was that we Were herthened too l A taxation which we were scarcely able to goad esalsia l'he war had disturbed all the elem. nib and because there acre afi w disaffected n: Ta a country, who endeavoured to inflame the multioia,a was the House to confide to Ministers a Hear wl put the liberties of every man in the kingdom at their mercy ? He would ask, whether those person s 1 0 0 the means of exciting such general distresances they could be counteracted by no ether measures than such as pieced the whole colliery out oh the pale of the Constitution ? By tte: argument of paver. tion being better than punishment, all the ineasups of a despotic Government mi slit be rehear:llea and justified. He was by no means sure that lie power would not lead to great and dangerous abases. For it was known that a Bill of Indemnity would protect the Ministers for the most arbitrary acts, such as con fining men in distant prisons without any foendstiso toe the c arges against them, and when they ace I for justice, they were met by a Bill of Indemnity, which prevented them from obtaining it. Eas tech reasons, he would not suffer such a measure to ems without firmly protesting against it ; partiteatay as it had not been proved that a single case had Vet re curred which the existing laws were not aderoate put down. He thought the former Repots woo ita peached in some of its most material parts, by a Oc aiberete and solemn proceeding at Norwich, and tar ;Astiwe evidence that heel been offered. It beet be-n farther impeached by what hat 0ce.e....2 ...c t o v er, where, amongst the whole population, not above Eta t or sixty persons had been found to take the secret Oaths, and which oaths, there was reason to Move, were administered by persons who were erep'raea sr spies on the pait of Governirent. The Neale alluded to the charge against Mr. Niel Deugao or o was tried for Sedition, but the evidence et the saarti was so full of the grossest perjury, that t!.e Crease Lawyers, upon the first decision, gave up Vas c' sr prosecutions. The plan of the proposed instincts don it the Metropolis was so absurd as to be cisar lu dicrous ; such as the proposed attack on the 'Vesta:, which two of the best regiments under the Duke of Wellington could not take without the use of cancer. The Noble Earl adverted to the proceedings of the RiOters io the Minories and on Tower-hill, which, he contended,' might have been put a stop to by the 'slightest sheviof military resistance. From such us sensate efforts was the House to be told,that the dan ger was any thing equal to what it had been at any lotion; period He alluded to that part of the last Report, which considered the 'intelligence U. rest in a degree on theoestimony of persons who had in some cases been guilty of exciting the people to act: of out rage. Such testimony, he contended, ought to he re jected altogether. Such a system—that of employ ing spies—was the odious character of a despotic Go vernment; but what state of society must we live to if a practise repugnant to the feelings of every Eng lishman was to be resorted to Would they sanc tion the principle that spies should he employed, and that, after they had been found out, be contineea is favour and rewarded ? lle would say, that eveiy i such miscreant should be brought to justico; and f he was suffered to be borne upon society, he say that every person who had been execatcd boa been murdered. He next alluded to the memoir character of a person who had lately given evidence. atol commented with pointed severity ou hiecondu ct. Such unfortunate persons as lately rose in Detayshre, who were the victim s of distress and delesion, were i to be pitied. Who could read . the accoentoof the . black despair which seized them whet; they ((tree they were not supported, uithoua believing they were misled by such wretches as he hod spoken of to the i r own destruction ?—(Loup' cries of Hear, Leer, The Noble Earl read a letter from Sheffield, stat,rg that a person named Oliver had gone to that natio, bourhood and encouraged people to aneurreceo - re (Hear, hear.)—A project was laid before tree aociete at Leeds by a Mr. o:iver, who was a Goven to I spy : he would ask Ministers it he was an a . C.-.w.:1•• ment spy ?—(Near, hear.)—lcs, Mr. Gayer, tee Government spy ;he would rept:it his tee m Government der that it might be made as public, ard held up rs much to infamy as possible—Ca/car.) t he Noble Eat I read the extract from the Leeds 4 Terer; , There was an evident coincidence between (1,;.: a maa- ‘ conduct -zed the evidence of Castle—Vireo) — %;? , : said he met Mr. Hunt in Cheapside, when be told h . • - he had been in possession of the Tower fcr cat hou r. In the some maaner, Mr. Oliver told the prop. le ot •'•S Saeffield, that every thing was prepared for? . isi London. He went abnut sounding the teraaat.'.. of toe people, and making the most fa7se Lions to them. After reading the whsle oa . die ta. b m e en so t r il e o sp ee e i cj i : e ng asl‘ii Oliver,, c(n Ise asked a a n ny . • t.•' p re. •ertc , :t indifie:en ce they 11 4 1 k; t of the ni g ' f the entintry, t'e.l rale !!!S 4S 11111C11