Star. — London, England, 1817-02-27 00:00:00

4 ,1, „ H e 4;d cut linpo!e• to hies a illegal act— , ,::'-aCt, which, though illegal, might be excusable, which a Bill of Indemnity would cover. A cri :nal charge was of a ver y different description ; r ,4, if the Honourable Gen t eman adhered to .it, - 1e House ought to insist n tiis naming an early day, r order to state his charge at length, and endeavour, he could, to support it. If the Honourable Gen ;ieirian meant to say, that the Noble Lord acted so ;:tega:ly as to render a 8.11 of Indemnity necessary, :t m i g ht be passed over as an oh:creation made in t he heat of debate. air. W. WYNN said, however he might regret the c harge that had been made, it appeared tc him not to be personal to the Noble Lord, but to be levelled against his Majesty's Ministers generally— (Hear, /war). He might labour under a mistake , but attending, as far as he could. to the subject, the:hi cf the Honourable Gentleman's speech was, to oppose the placing of extraordinary powers in the hands of Lis Majesty's Ministers —(Hear, hear). It was not iirectt4 against an individual. Long discussions W right be avoided, if the expressions which gate rise to them were properly known. The charge, as it struck him was this—that his Majesty's Ministers lairing acted criminally, had called for a Bill of In dronity, in order to protect them. This was a charge to which he disclaimed being any party ; but it was one which, he contended, did net authorise the Noble ird to interrupt :he debate, as in his view of the ctte it was not inconsistent with Parliamentary order. Mr. BRAND said, that his Honourable Friend, t o WAS convinced, from the sense in which he. used Ow word criminal (which w. I by no means appli v2ic to the subject), did not mean to have intro. dsced it. This was evident from his.having alluded to it Lill of Indemnity, which, though it might pro tect Ministers from the operation of illegal acts during the.suepension of the Habeas Corpus Act, could not protest them from answering for those which were of a criminal nature. The SPEAKER—" I apprehend that the point of Order tainnected with the question hinges on this— whether the Honourable Member meant to charge his Majesty's Governivient, in the aggregate, with acts of criminality, or to impute criminal offences against an individual Member of this, House ? The two charges are, tirat, that some person or persons had imbrued their hands in the blood of their coun try; and, next, that they had abused the powers in trusted to them. Now, in my view of the Orders of this House, an act of criminality charged against the Government in general is not .a broach of those Or. den, but it advanced against an individual, it is a direct infraction of them. The Honourable Member will satisfy the House in which sense he made use of I , the expressions complained of."—(Hear.hear)'. Mr. 113i.NNETT said, he would be the last man alive to retract any thing which he meant to have stated ; but he had ao hesitation in declaring most distinctly, as a Gentleman and a man of honour, that he used the expressions generally: He did not allude to the two hands of any Member of that House, but he spoke of those who formed's' part of that Admi nistration during whose lamentable reign those scenes took place in Ireland which he ever must lament. He spoke of those who under an Act similar to that which now cause before them for discussion, had done many Aid actions. This, be believed, was a more correct word than the word criminal, for if they had conducted themselves criminally, the Act of Indem nity which was passed in their favour, would not brie availed them. Lord CASTLEREAGH said he understood the Honourable Member had addressed himself pew"- sully to him, he now had learned that he alluded to the Government generally:" He believed that the Honourable Member would not retract any word that he meant to have used, and as he understood from the Chair that be had no right to complain of any imputation thrown on hint, as a Member of the Go vernment, he should not notice the observation far. ther. But he begged to state, that if cruelty were imputed to him as a Member of the Administration, to which the. Honourable Gentleman alluded, he leould, in his charaCter of Minister, give the state ment the same term of contradiction which the Ho nourable Member bad applied to the Report of the 'Committee, of which his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Ponsonby) was a Member. Mr. BENNETT.said, he had not spoken of any cruelty that was exercised under the appearance of law, but of that which took place under the eyes of Government in the Castle-yard of Dublin. - Lord , CASTLEREAGH said, the Honourable Member had alluded to measures which had occurred . in Ireland when he was a Member of the Irish Go. vernment. If the subject were regularly brought tor-, ward, be would meet the charges and refute thems j but he put it to the feelings of the Honourable Geo tleman, and to the good sense of the House, whether the character of Ministers and the peace of the country were to be mixed up in debates up,pn other subjects ? Mr. BENSETT said, he alluded to the measures that had taken place in Ireland, because the Noble Lord had denied them—and, in denying them, had applied to him a phrase, which, it seemed, he had 'used in speaki,ig of the Report of the Committee, though he did not mean it. The Noble Lord charged him with a take statement of facts, and he wished to set himself right with the House, by declaring that which he knew to be truth. The Honourable Gen tleman concluded with observing, that he hoped he 'would be excused for departing from the general line of argument, because he felt most warmly on the A . t e c; ; and he pledged himself to oppose the present B'll, aiid that telatire to seditious meetings, in every • .:!re,e of their progress. Mr. F. LEWIS said, he came to the decision that would vote for the suspenSion of the Habeas COP, Act with sincere regret. He was convinced.that' r At which they were about to suspend was a shish, mpo:tant part (he might say the perfection, the very consummation) of the Constitution; but be was of cp.nion, looking_ to the balance of evils, that 'this. •tempated with others that threatened us, WAS infs.., z.le:y the least. The Spencean doctrines were, not, tr, be counteracted by the publicatioe of pamphlets of z" , opposite nature ; but they should be met as a cruise, "'d the publication punished by an express law. Tlw , ?mat-less of the danger in which the Constitution L td b. 2,11 placid was a full and ample justification. There had been considerable powers g, anted to Mi. :taters by a very sums Act, that of the year 1799, by, its reference to that of 1796, which since .. 1 p.4-1, had defeated the pa/ability vt ainisurs jict• ing under it on die present oecaiior. Vet hehad lis doubts if any thing but the absolute stliper.;:ion of the Habeas Corpus Act would be efficient to coerce the dreadfully-perverted spirit which had gone abroad among the people at the present• awful crisis. tie certainly did regret that other and milder means had not been resorted to at an earlier stage of this conta mination, hut he feared it was now too late. Mr. YORKE believed this was the first time in the history of Parliament, that a Bill sent from the Lords to that House had been objected and argued against, without its being read. How was it possible its contents could be ascertained by the House ? He objected, to this mode of proceeding, and entreated the House to inform itself upon the subject. Mr. SMITH (of Cambridge) had waited with great attention upon the reasoning of Ministry and their advocates, to disci ver any thing like an tide quate reason for the adoption of these violent and dangerous measures now proposed in the tibiae of a Bill for suspending the Constitution, for shutting up the mouth; of his fellow-subjects, groaning under the weight of their taxation; and sufferings. Their hy pothesis he could not grant. It was taken for granted the country was in that alarming state that called for these measures; and a Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Canning) had said on a former night, that it was matter of historical notoriety how frequently the active few had overpowered .the heedless many, and effected by this activity the overthrow of powerful States, in despite of the wishes of the greater part of the population of such countries. The argument, he must observe, bore strongly against the part he feared the Ministry had acted in the transaction. If they had, as he found, been inactive, and slumbered upon their posts, they had ill performed the part-of the accredited watchful guardians of the public wel fat e confided to their care. Great was the responsi bility they had drawn down upon themselves, and severe indeed roust be the _censure of the country upon that negligence—(Hear, hear.) The French Revolution had been adduced as an in stance to illustrate the Right Hoe. Member's hypo thesis ; but he would tell him, instead of the active few in France, it was the active Dimly, who wrested from the powerful and tyrannic few that Reform in their Constitution, if'such it might be called, which had been loudly called fur, until at length the public became impatient, and in heir hatred of the tyranny of past times, bore down all the mounds which form ed and supported the fabric of society— (Hear, bear.) And yet all this was done notwithstanding the rulers in France never had wanted those extensive powers to arrest and confine suspected, or, indeed, any de scription of persons. If the Noble Lord or the Right Hon. Gentleman wished to know the real cause of, the French Revolution, he would tell them it ori.ti nated in the want of an Habeas Corpus Act in that kingdom—in the want of a Constitution adapted to the progressive improvement and information of society at that period. Frenchmen then, like Eng lishmen at this day, would have felt such an act as the great bulwark of their liberties, their - pride and glor y—(Hear, hser.)--.Great terror had beeq affected at the progress of their *mean doctrines. He kit convinced they would hies fallen innocuous had they been published during the ordinary state of society but in the resent irritated, aad alolost frenzied crisis, these doctrines no &tuft had operated with increased effect upon the minds of starving labour ers, artificers, and mechanics. Upon the complaint respecting the atrocity and blasphemous tenkney of the libels, and other production. issiowg ,from this body of theorists, he had only to ask e iry were they not prosecuted. by the proper Law Officers ?. The Attorney-General hid coeceded to these pro ductions such uncommon iarilreufuhsess (he thought this was the term applied) diet it was impossible to, fit upon the treason. But would it not be tar mires just and fair, it it were found so difficult to frame as indictment upon the offence, to amend the defect is the laws as they at present stood? This . would be more equitable, than for the *I lodged offences of a few, to rob the community of the benefit of, the trial by, Jury. There had been certainly much done to able. viate tire present distresses of the country. When had the handof charity been so widely and generously extended ? When so much pains taken to inquire into the state of the poor and distressed ? The Poor, Laws bad always been considered the most ample securities for the peace of the country at large; yet, atter all these securities—these alleviations of the public distress—Mieiders proceeded, in 'direct viola. lion of the best interests of the country, to suspend the benefits of the Constitution to all his Majesty's subjects, directly in the teeth of that well-known axiom of law, that it were better the guilty mast . *should escnpe, than the innocent few be included in their punishment. Mr. ROBINSON said, the Committee had been unanimous inconsequence of the weight of the testi.' moray brought before them. The Gentlemen on the' opposite side of the House would not have agreed to it otherwise. It *as impossible in this House to state ; the facts in the way they bass been bruught before theirs is the Committee, because names and other material circumstances must be suppressed, all which would be necessary to produce - complete conviction. Many Gentlemen seemed disposed to undervalue the statements of the edeunidee with respect to the es: tent of the danger arisen from the Spenceans, bat tithe danger was not at All magnified. The principles' of these men wetesabmitted to a Committee in i . when .the measure now proposed - had been adopted. They Were thets celled. Spensonians, and furnished, even at that time, grounds for proceeding against them. Their' ptinciplis then, is now, went to the catinction of all pfdperty, so that they were not to be i 'dejilt, with' as a 'new sect. Though then counter. noted, they were since revivedwitb additional strength. An- Honourable: Gentleman opposite CM4 Broog poun) said, they had been persecuted into importance. ,It was no.such thing, they did not require the aid et persecution to.make thins popular among a certain, •clasa, They were peculiarly calculated to propagate themselves; for DO dOatifiti could be More palatable to the igneitant diantheirs. They combined all the principles of treason...(Heer. hear) The mischief of them was most subtle In its combination and most tremendous in its . effects. A Noble Lord opposite (Cochrane) bad s.id that their numbers were not more than one hundred. "He would be more accurate if lie added thousands so tire hundreds—Veer, heer.r-r Though their principles may differ in enne respects ; twin those of, the other societi:s, the views of them all were Vectly:the,semse. • Taw( wAa esse. polies dr- cumstance ::inch must excite le most serious al l : f n, i god that was their system of secret Oda* thi...c:: tended to unite all the bad passions of men. .Ta.cy kept his got only of those who belongedto them but of these win 'did oot, and for what purpose could theT keep lists . of such as did not beloag to them? only hccaose they intended to wreak their vengeance upon tliem—(llear, hear.) The absence of foreign war may make some difference as to the amount of danger, but it was ne reason why the country should not be protected.— In time of war they expected: pon former occasion: assistance from abroad ; but even now, alien that hope was removed, their machinations did not cease. It was recommended by an Honourable Baronet (Sir F. Burdett). that such as were not of their party should arm themselves, and that this would he suit- cient to counteract the danger. But could resi.:L nice of this kind he made without fighting? Must it nut give rise to a civil war; and, for the &eke of huma pity, would it not be better to put into the bans of Government the means of suppressing the mischief otherwise ? There were parts of the country in which 1 the danger may not yet be, observable; but if the I principles of these men were not acted against, they i would soon contaminate.all parts by their introduc tion. He felt confident that nothing short of the 1 propositions offered to the House would be sufficient i to restore tranquillity, - and enable those who did not I wish for ruin to live in peace and comfort. Lord ALTHORPE sad it was impoasilde for ' any person to argue properly up , ,n the subject, who I did. not know the facts that were before the Coatnnit- tee. With regard to the danger, there was room for i much difference of opinion. The doctrines of the i Spenceans were certainly a strong argument of dan ger, for t..ough absurd, it often haypened that aboard doctrines wrought Much mischief. The people pos sessing property in the country would however, in his opinion, he sufficient to resist them. In all sec- cessful conspiracies, there were always found per- ! sons of more note than were concerned in this.— It ought to be recollected, that the Habeas Corpus i Act was one of the greatest privileges. of the subject, and that it ought not to .be suspended upon any slight occasion. There had existed periods when the country had been in. the greatest danger, and yet that Act had net been suspended. He had little need to mention the meeting of the fleet at the Nore, when the country was in as great danger as it ever had been at any similar crisis. There was at that tines consi dered to exist a great connection between the people of the metropolis and the fleet, but yet no suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act had taken place. It was the first time that this Act had ever been suspen ded in time of peace. There had been one instance of its wispensi..n ' • btu that. on examination, would be found to be very different from the present. He bad not the evidence before him on the subject, which no doubt had been before others in that House; but cer tainly he thought, that if any such conspiracy existed as was supposed, it would be the best method to pass the measure first, and to inquire into the conspiracy more fully afterwards. The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND stated, tnat he was ansious to communicate some facts to the House. relative to that part of the king dom to which he belonged, which must, he conceived, justify his Majesty's Ministers against the charge pre. ferred by the Noble Lord. Publications had beets sfecently circulated there, calculated to famtiiarize the popular mind with every immoral and seditious. ,principl , .. These productions. however, were so named as to evade the cognizance of the law, al., though their evident object was to bring, not only the', Crown, but that House, and the Constitution itself, into contempt. A magazine of petitions had been •lipened in Scotland, and even speeches sent down to be.delivered, which those to wham they were sent, _being unable to speak. hatl, read. Immoral and irre ligious as these.docrtinea,were, which were thus in cukated and . propagated, there was not soffit/eat foundation for, any proceedings on the part of the Law Officers cif the Crown. All that they could do they did. Directions were given to watch very nar. rQwly the conduct of those persons who were conspi cuous in the sedition of 1796. The consequence was, that they were soon put in possession of infor mation, that a regular conspiracy had been orga. nized ; and whether it were connected or not with persons in this part of the country, be could not tell; but certainly the leaders of it were inactive cone spondence with.such persons. It was found thi; an oath of the most dreadful import was used to bind together the members of this.conspiracy: " In mini presence of Goa, 1, A. B. do volustarily swear, that I will persevere io my. endeavouring to form a brotherhood , of affection 'lncept &ltous of every descripliOn, who are-con sidered worthy of coati fence; and 'that I will persevere In my endeavours to ob.ain for all the people is Great Britain and Ira land, not disqualified by crimes or insanity, the steeds, unsaddle at the age of twenty-oue, whh tree sod equal Representation, sad Animal Psritsments—(ifeer.iiter; frees the Ofteeitioa) ; and that I will support the same fish. utmost of my Tower, either by moral or phytieni strength—(sheese of Isar),—as the case 'nay requires and I do further swear, tom ae.ther hopes, fears, not puolshmeot, shell induce me to inform or give evidence agaiiim ashy member or members, eolleitively or individually, for any act or expression done or made in or out In this or skdar SOM. ties, wider the punishment of death, to be isilicied on um by any timber or members of such Soddy. ho help me Goo, raid keep mesteadfast." Wm shouts at Ike sad of :his - Oath resounded from all faro of the News. lief wire !mita from she pi: position benches). Many hundred persons were bound together by this oath, both in Glasgow and its vicinity. Soon afterwards, information was obtained, that a meeting had Win held,. in which a motion was made for the purpose of modifying the oath, and. of leaving ou tits most offensive terms; but such was the malignant disposition of that assembly. such its determination to hey. nothing to do with persons who would flinch from their horrid test, that the proposition of amend ment was unanimously rejected. The result was, that at the neat .meeting several persons were appre hended while sitting in full. conclave—i Here the shouts from the Opposition were louder .and more vehement than we have ever heard on . any forme' occasion). Though these were all the persons whc had been taken up, yet there were others in a diffe relit sphere. 01 life who ought -to have been appre headed, and who would have been taken up, provided the evidence against them . had been more satisfac tor!--( Vehement shouts, again from the opposition). This conspiracy was nut confined to Glasgow ; its siMaftcations extended. throtigh various parts of the ItingloOs I and so wide had the mischief spread, that ;;; he wasin his conscience convinced, tbstwabthing but the passing.of this Bill cottld prevent tbe.eirusion . ol the blood .of our fellow-r.itiaens; for it a &tut once enmmericid. who could ,iv where k woald end He deeply regretted the great misfortune that such a measure should he necessary ; but he was persuaded thet the very safety and existence of the Constiteties. _was concerned, and that the Constitption could net be preserved unless on this occasion one of its l) t and strongest bulwarks was sespended.—(Cties rt Hear front the Ministers, veitemetely reeseboed front the Oeposition.) 1... rd MIL I'ON still retained his Opinion as to the Deliriousness of c rutin :les;taiinte persoos in the c. try, nor did lie want the asstetion of the Leatned Lord to erniviece him of the dangerous nature of the proceedings of the disaffected—([tear.) He was in deed considerably surprised at the course taken by th it Learned lewd, for if he recollected deli% the Mem'uers ref the Cemmittee of Secrecy had, at the express request of that .Iseareed Person, agreed to eepunee trom theireepost the oath which he had now clivelged—teis was rairaordinery, arc! required or. plereition--.( /leer, Isar.) A111101) 8 1) he had no &min of the resiettoes (rejects of many designing men throughout the ebutitsy, he denied that tee intentions of such persons, Lowever u;cleed, were a suf cient. ground for removiier the great bulwark of our liber ties. It was not sualcient to say, that bad men bed, in their vain imaeinatiens, contemplated the over throw of the Government. It ought to be made ,car, that the danger likely to accrue to the Constitution was such as could not be resintd by any other means than by the suspension of that very Constitutive.— ,This Suspension Act was now, for the first time, will one single exception, attempted to be passed in a time of protuuud peace: and the exception was itself a precedent that coke strongly against the present measure; for it WAS occasiensd by bishop Atteibury's plot—a plot id which a great pet of the leading gen try and many of the nobility esere in c!; , arent degrees involved—(Heine, leer, from smith No'A Lord under the Gallery, whom we could not see.) The Noble Lord under the Gallery did nut seem to relish the subject; but it was neverteeless quite eietain that the nobility and gentry of that day were to a greet exteet averse to the reigning family. And as to the qua lity of the plot it.elt, he would read a passage from the speech of George I. on opening the Session of 1722, which would show at least on what ground the Ministers of that day asked for the suspension of the great characteristic of the Constitution. The speech says, that e the cuseptettors have made the strongast instances for assistitace from foreign Powers, and have tesolved to attempt the subversion otehe Government. To this end they have provided considerable sums of money, engaged greet numbers of officers Hem :Owed, secured large quantities of arms and emmu anion, and thougheehemselves in such readiness, that had not the conspiracy been timely discovere,!, we should. without. doubt, before now have seen the whole nation, and particularly the City of London, involved in blood and confusion." —(Crier of Ilear.) How different was the state of things from the pre sent, when we were all so alarmed at the miseraele plots of these wretched Spencsaes. Could any rues doubt that the Ministers of those days would not heel acted like the ahniaters of the present time ? time of real and imminent danger, they were so it from shriving an eagerness so suspend the Heleeis Corpus Ace and so little did they distrust the loyalty of the majority of the people, that they del not COM., to Perliearentenr any extraordinary powers till s, • ,se six .months after the discovery of the conspiracy -- (Haar, hear.) Ceu!ii any mall he blind to the iffi.- diderence between the iaspintanse of that eon ;piracy znd the designs of the present pletrers again: cite Sette ? At that time the Duke Qt Norfolk, the Earl of Orrery and I :nuts North and Grey, were among the conspirators, and the well-known Oiske of Ormend was to have heeded an ertnyof foreign invaders?(Hear.) Such was the motive. and 'no less a motive was sut )icient to induce Sir Robert Walpole to suspend the Constitution. • In the year 1744, there •was. another Suspensiun of the Habeas Corpus Act ; on which occasion, Lord Chatham and Lord Lyttelton (then Mr. Pitt and Mrs Lyttelton), and another person whose name it was nut necessary -for him to retention, bad strenuously opposed it. Yet the suspension was then only for two months; and, indeed,. so great had the jealousy always been of presedring this great prop of our-liberties. that even in that dangerous year, after the Revolution, Pediment would net-suffer it to be suspended for more than three months, and that by successive renewals of a month each. time. All these circumstances made a strong impression on his mind, that oar ancestors set a.greater value on this shield of the Constitution than their careless and for gettul descendants—(Hear, /ear).—He said forget ful, because they appeared tromehent. indifference to have forgot bow, and at what, cost, that cone citutisinel bulwark had been obtained—Wear). — He would ask Whether any train in,his senses.eould think of comparing the present state q(. England with its state in 1;93 ? At that time thert was an active correspondence with Clubs in this cowry, and direct incitements were held out from foreigners-. that re. course should be had to physical force. Oaths were trained, and passed current, quite as terrible as that quoted by the fanned Lerd, and depoteof . arms were proved to exist-in different places. Under such circumstances it was thought proper to suspend the Heeees.Corpus Act, and yet that shspension was suffered to expire; nor was it renewed even on the occasion of the dangerous mutiny in 173 C. The Noble Lord concluded by saying, that he should give his vote against the Bill; far, to da oteerwise, would, he theught, be %tieing ageing his colittry. " I :eel,' said the Noble Lewd, is great pain in giving this. ve - e, though I cannot express the eauseof it. 1 -.( /leer, hear.)—The Noble hoed sat down apparently much affected. lie was stesposeJ in the last sentence to allude to a difference of opinion betwe e n hi mse lf and his father ,Lord Fitswillsanse The LORD ADVOCATE' of •SCOT.I.AV3 s aid it was only that morning his Isfaieste 's Goveree insnt had thought it adtrisable to path the oath which he had read to thellerse. Mr. WYNN thought the real tenntion was, n'ett degree of danger to which we were exposed. Was the danger sufficient to justify the Measure ? In his opinion it was; and as long as danger existed, the neture of it, whether external or inrernal, was of no consequence. It appeared from undoobtect - evidence that the most treasonable correspondence -had been carried on by.means of Clubs aced Delegetert and a conenxion was thus kept Uptetweets diem as the deli . retires and the people at large as the executitre body. Surely this was Wothi.i.::4:t to the House to aru ■ ,- -~► Y' ~~