Star. — London, England, 1821-02-22 00:00:00

brought forward this statement as a consoling fa to slew how impossible it was that the comforts the labouring classes could have been diminished, if consumption had increased. He fully agreed with the Noble Marquis, that there ought to be no altera tion in the Corn Lairs; and that such a measure could have no effect in relieving the distresses of the country ; but he could not agree with those who re commended alterations in the-laws relating to trate. Other countries might be superior to us in some com mercial regulations ; but there was no dependence on their permanency ; and the great advantage which this country enjoyed above others was, that the peo ple knew what the laws were, whether good or bad; and he thought that frequent fluctuations in the laws of commerce were worse than long existing restric tions. With respect to agriculture, he believed that it was in a great measure caused by the circumstance of persons having, during the last years of the war, brought into cultivation great tracts of land which had never been destined for it ; and that, too, at a great expense. • There was another circumstance which .contributed to the distress of our agriculture, but it was one which ought to excite congratulation instead of regret—he alluded to the improved agri culture of Ireland. Some years ago, a very small portion of corn was imported from t hat country— among thiieorn there was scakely any wheat. In one year, 58,000 quatters of` wheat were imported ; but 144 year the quantity Wat'nti less than 351,875 quartera !t , M to the collection of taxes, the effect of an alteration in the mode of collecting any tax, would be a diminution of proditce. and an increase of diffi culty ; and an attempt Walter the taxation on a large scale, would incieiselhe general distress of the coun try. Therefore, it would be unwise to adopt any course that should altei the general state of taxation, and produce that confusion which must be produc tive of a derangement in the Revenue.— He concluded with'moving fur the Papers to which be referred. The Marquis of LANSDOWN replied. lie assured the House that at Birmingham and Glasgow, and other manufacturing places, there had been a great decrease in the consumption of meat and bread. The Earl of LIVERPOOL maintained that it was impossible to ascertain the precise state of the con sumption in any other way than by regular returns, such as he then moved for; and from the statements he had just made, he had a right to conclude that as these material articles had increased, the consump tion in general of other things had also increased. Lord ERSKINE contended, that the real cause of all the distresses of the country was the destructive system of war carried on for the last thirty 'years, which had created overgrown capitalists, who were now enjoying vast advantages on the distresses of others. But the Noble Earl, like certain doctors, who would recommend to their patients, when in the last stage of life, to persevere in the use of the me dicines which they had long and ineffectually pre scribed, seemed determined to adopt no remedy, but let the same system go on under which all our cala mities had grown up. His Lordship next adverted to the distressed state of our agriculture, and the enormous amount of the Poor-rates, to remedy which the Legislature never thought of devising . any mea sure. These pernicious laws were swallowing up the whole agricultural interests of the country. It was absolutely necessary to fix on some early day to take all the petitions on the subject of agricultural dis tress into consideration, with a view of adopting some general systeni of relief. Lord KING.—The Noble Earl opposite had Stated various causes, from time to time, for the distress which affected the country. But now came the most extraordinary cause of all, that of excessive produc tion. Among the numerous follies of mankind which Swift had held up to ridicule, he had never touched on that of excessive production. This was a folly which no Gulliver was ever found to expose. No such attempt as this was ever made before to impose on the credulity of mankind. If the Noble Lord had stated that there was a deficiency in the supply, he would have stated a true and proper cause of the dis tress, and a proposition to that effect would be per fectly. intelligible. But to say that excessive produc tion caused the distress, was altogether a paradox.— Now, there were some things which admittCd of an easy explanation; for instance, in the cases of beer and malt. More malt was used, because more beer had been drank. In tea also, it was well known that a very extensive speculation ad taken place among private traders. The prices were lowered in conse quence, and the loss was not to the traders, but the importer. The Noble Earl said that there 'was an excess of produce. It was well known that the quan tity of produce depended on the amount of capital, and that the increase of capital' necessarily caused au increase of supply. But it was also well known that there had been a very considerable decrease of capi tal ; and from that fact he reasoned, without any fear of contradiction, that there must also be a decrease of supply. In the common article of liMe, he could assure the House, that the decrease of the use of lime in agriculture was inconceivable—(licar, hear).—lf it were true that there had been an excessive produce, how could it be reconciled with that fact? Again, an excessive produce would have caused an increase of labour. Now if there had been an increase of la bour, why was it that the poor-rates had been in creased to their present enormous amount? If there had been such an abundance of produce as had been stated, was it enough to compensate fcr the decrease of price? If that had been the case, agriculture would not have suffered as it had. Excessive pro duce was not the.cause of the distress. The real cause of it was to be bond in the twenty-five years war— (Hear, hear)—and now they must pay for it. During the war they did not feel it, because then the Noble, Earl gave a false spirit to the country by his paper currency—(Hear, hear).—The Noble Lord, in truth, did not understand what he was doing, or if he did, he must have known it to have been a complete delu tioa—(llear, hear).—lt was an acknowledgedmaxim, that the prosperity of the country depended on the proportion of the population to the capital; but when be saw an increased population and a diminished ca pital, he concluded that the disproportion was natu rally followed by a diminution of general happiness. The only cure for the distress existing was to be found in a rigid economy. There was a want of pro per contrail in the Treasury. Reductions had not been made where they might and ought to have beeti made. The %remedy alone was the only one which -,-~ _ could restore the resources of The coantry, a.. a hope of their permanence. Noble Lords sisig.. .s eel as tb the vatic"; causes which might be d to accipmt for del distress,. and as to the reme -1 which might awe Fr; but he vies thoroughly con tcests] ed that the only origin of the distress was in the . =ion of Ministers, and that the only cure of it. was to be found in economy, and in the reduction of, tazation—(Hear, hear). Earl DARNLEY was persuaded that no legisla- 4 tive proceeding could in the slightest degree relieve the distress which prevailed throughout the country. By holding otit hopes which it could not realize, such a proceeding would tend only to increase tbo dissatisfaction of the people. He concurred with hial Noble Friend, that the only effectual remedy for the. existing distress was to be found in the reduction of. ti.at taxation which pressed upon all classes of society. 'lt was the duty of Ministers to reduce the overwhelm isrof iag expenses of the Military Establishments; and 'even in the Navy, though he admitted that that was a department which ought not to excite jealousy—. but even in the Navy, he conceived that considerable reductions might be made, without impairing its ef fective strength. Little could be done by - lopping off here and there paltry items of expenditure. The pruning-knife should be applied with a bold and liberal hand. The expenses of the collection of taxes, for instance, were much greater than they ought to be. In Ireland, particularly, those expenses were vastly diSproportioned to the sum collected. He had concurred, however, in the motion of 'his Noble Friend, in crder that every inquiry should barnacle on the subject, though he was convinced that any thing short of the remedy he had stated would pro duce only disappointment. Earl GREY agreed fully in the necessity of eco nomy. He was convinced that a greater portion of relief might be attained, even by lopping off small items of expenditure, than the Noble Lord on the bench below (Darnley) seemed to think possible. He would now make a few Observations on what had passed in the course of debar. He had come down to the House with a considerable feeling of curiosity, to hear what the statement of the Noble Earl oppo site would be as to the causes of the distress of .the country. He had seen the Noble Earl do that which his Majesty's Ministers—the Noble Earl among dot rest—had been accustomed to do for a number - el years. The Noble Earl supported his statement cm official returns, from which he drew certain infer ences, and upon the - se inferences he called upon this House and the Public to rely, in contradiction to the actual circumstances which had come under their own observation—(Hear, hear).—The papers, doubt less, were all correct. He did not suspect the truth of the returns, calculations, and figures which they contained. But he had found, on former occasions, that the inferences drawn from such papers were.fal-, lacious ; and he believed that the inferences drawn from the returns to which the Noble Earl now refer. red would be found not less erroneous—(Hear, hear) —Allusions had been made to the currency. There Was a period, he remembered, when the Noble Earl's opinion on that subject was very different from what it was now.' On former occasions he remembered the Noble Earl to have contended that there was no depreciation of paper, and the other House of Par liament was induced to come to a resolution that a pound note and a shilling was equal to a guinea in gold. To support the reasoning of the Noble Earl, i returns were made to this House of the prices of leather, and various other articles, to prove that the alteration in the prices was produced,"not by the de preciation of the paper, but by other causes. But, since that period he had heard the Noble Earl, in one of the most eloquent speeches he had ever made in that House, contend that there was a depreciation of the paper currency of the country—(Hear, hear). In the same fallacious manner it was now inferred, that there had been, in the last year, rather an in crease than a diminution of the comforts of life to the population of the country ; that the present distresi Was not general, as had been supposed, and that it had been produced by an' excess of production ; and as a remedy for this, the Noble Earl proposed that the land should be taken but of cultivation. He did not know how this would meet the views of some Honourable Members of the other House ; but it was pretty clear that when the Noble Earl said that the comforts of life had been increased to the Peo. ple, lie said that thing which everybody knew not to be true—(Hear, hear). Was it not notorious that the Commercial and Agricultural Interests of the country were all'suffering under the most acute dis tress?—(Near hear). Noble Lords who would take the trouble of examining into the state of labour, would find how much the distress, instead of being diminished, was increased. Were not Poor-rates raised in their amount? Did not the tradesmen in all the great towns universally say that• there never was such a decrease of trade, and such• a pressure or distress? —(Hear). As to excess of production, he I did not believe there was any such thing. 'He had taken some pains to acquire knowledge upon that sulsject, and all the information which he had ob tained went to contradict that fact. He understood that the last crop, great as it was in many parts of the country, yet, on the average of the whole eosin ' try, was a short one. In many districts the tenants' were unable to pay their rents, and they assigned, as the cause of their inability, the shortnesi, particu larly of the wheat crops. As to the increase of con sumption, if that had existed, the consequence would have been an ?name of demand. If there had been an increase of demand, it would have benefited every interest, particularly that of agriculture, which, it was well known, had not been benefited. The Ma nufacturing Interest was also in distress, in proof of which he appealed to the Petition which had been lately presented to that House from Birmingham. In Lancashire also he was informed that there had been a considerable diminution of the capital *hick had been applied to manufactures. The true cause of all these distresses was manifestly derived from; the war, and the profusion of expenditure with which it had been carried on. The truthlias, that they had contracted a debt in reduced paper which they could not now pay in a restored cutrency—(Year, hear). He was as reluctant as any Maircordebe to break faith with the public creditor, and he would adopt anv measure by :which such a thing might by possi bility be avoided; but it was a minim us law, near° teuetur ad isrpruri6ile. They had conflicted a debt, in order to support the •Govimment in their profu sion; and that destructive line of policy had reduced the country to II most frightful 4tatlX-41 sell Such was the dimes onditiognbor bg,thougbt it not too ' arr-A to l which wafappliedio F e Mthebegii t Reirolutio), that the. tr .r waltnn t 4, bankruptt-y!—Wear, Oar).— at to this'ire.. w the discontent.hich prevailed tfltoughout the cram try, he Mt that it was a duty ipperatiire on the Go vernment totconotnize and retrench as much a:pos sible. • "This was a relief which the people, aft all they bad suffered, had a right to expect, and Which ik •was the duty of the Parliament to grant (hear, hear), It was their duty to correct abuses which wounded' the spirit and alienated the affections of the country, and to remove burthens which a long system of Mi nisterial profligacy had imposed on the people. • The question was then put, and the motion agreed to, when the House adjourned, at lialflastiSeveu. to u MOOSE OF COMMONS. The Serails took the Chair at four o'clock. Lord ALTHORPE brought up the Report of the Committee appointed to try the merks of the Petition spinet the Return for the Borough of Hedon ' in Yorkshire; the Report - declared the sitting Member, John Millie, Esq. to be duly elected, and that the Petition was not frivolous nor vevattous. Mr. C. CALVERTgave notice that he should more forieseir to bring in a Bill to rrpeal so much of Charles 11. esp. 7, sec. *4l as restricts Proprietors of Wharfs between Loudon-bridge Bed the Temple from raising any necessary Walls, Palings, Itc. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Sir CHRISTOPHER COLE presented eight Pe titions.from the Landholders of Glamorganslure, on the subject of Agricultural Distress. Sir THOMAS LETHBRIDGE presented a simi lar Petition from the Landholder* of the County of Somerset. The Petitioners alluded to the fact of 2130 Petitions, signed by upwards 0f,100,000 persons, oc cupiers f four millions of acres, having been pre % seined to Parliament last Session. The Petitioners apprehended that, in a very short time, they would be unable to pay rent or taxes; and hoped the Hon. House would speedily appoint a Committee to initujii into the present state of Agriculture. In the Peti tion and its Prayer, the Hon. Gentleman heartily coincided. The Petition was brought up, read, and laid upon he table. • Mr. SYKES presented a Petition from Holderness. in the County of York, on the subject of Agtioultdial, Distress. The Petition was signed by 1000 pettons, the occupiers of about 50,000 acres of land ; but although he felt it his duty to present their Petition, he must say he did not agree with them in the re medy they propoSed—namely, high bounties. He believed the distress could not be removed by these means.—Petition received, and ordered to be printed. HUNT** BREAKFAST POWDER. Sir ROBERT WILSON, having seen lately- in the Public Papers a report of the trial and conviction of an individual in the Courts below, for having sold what was called Breakfast Powder, and which *as simply roasted wheat ground, and not 'soli as:coffee, begged to. ask the Right Honourable Gentleman op petite, whether Any alteration in thelaw ender which this conviction was obtained was in the contempla-' tion of his Majesty's Government? - It was an ex tremely hard case on poor people to prevent them ob taining this powder, which they could have at the low price of eight-pence per pound (Hear, hear). He, had used it in his own family, and could . assure the House it was'agreeable; wholesome, and nutritious. Mr.LUSHINGTON said, be understood the Case to which the Honourable Gentleman. alluded was that of Henry Hunt, the decision on which showed what the law was on the subject, but which was so recent as to preclude Government from any consi deration of it, with a view to determine whether any alteration in the law ought to be made. • Sir ROBERT WILSON said, if some notice.*** not taken of this subject, he should 'speedily call the attention of the House to it. - CLASS TRAWL ' Sir M. W. RIDLEY rose to repeat a question, whether any new Dutiei on Glass were in contem plation by his Majesty's Government? Mr. LUSHINGTON replied in the negative; but the Act passed two years ago, and which would ex pire in July nest, would be renewed for a. period of three years longer. TIMIFR TRAM!. - - General GASCOYNE presented a Petition from certain Ship-owners of Liverpool, on the subject of the Timber Trade, which he wished to press on the attention of the President of the Board of Trade, and of the Representatives for Ireland. The Hon. General then remarked on the inconvenience arising to trade from the present uncertainty on the subject. Mr. WALLACE said, the Committee of the Board was fully aware of the inconvenience complained of, and as anxious as the Hon. General himself for its removal. The Committee had made considerable progress, and he hoped it would not be found neces sary to extend the law as it at present existed. After a few words from Sir J. NEWPORT, the Petition was.referred to the Committee on Foreign Trade. Mr.WALLACE moved, that all Petitions relative to the Timber Trade now on the table, should be re ferred to the Committee on Foreign Trade. ;Agreed to. FORGIIIY OF BANE NOTES. Mr. H. G. BENNETT moved for a . Return of the number of Persons convicted of uttering Forged Bank of England Notes, for . three years last past ; also of the number of Persons executed in the same period ; also of the number of Persons transported for the same during the like period . ; and for similar Returns for Ireland.—Ordered. ' - . ~ RECOVERY OF SuAI.L . MEM • Lord ALTHORPE rose to:nave for leave to brittg in a Bill . for regulating County Courts, add to provide for the better recovery of Small Debts therein. The Noble Lord, in bringing forward this motion, tittered into a detailed statement of the origin,-progress, and present situation of the County Courts. , -. Tlteestent of the sum of which County Courts at present had cognizance, was 40s. This sum' was fixed inthe reign of Edward I. at which time 40s. was equal to £3O of our present. money. - Now, he would be content to raise the jurisdiction. of these Courts to CIS. He would also propose that the Sheriff shotdd have the , power of ippotnting, As Judge. of the, County Court, a Barrister of five yearr standing.; and. further, , _that the Sheriff should have the power of impannelling a Jury. The Noble Lord, aftett detailing . some Amor provisions of the Bill, concluded by snoring for leave. to bring it in. Mr. CAMPBELL seconded the motion. \ '. Mr. WYNN said a lbw words in &vaunt tie Mettalte, If k could be prevented interfdth,. either jurisdictions .— Leave was gi ven . -° LONATIC PETITION. M r . HUME presented a Petition from a n H e ri , L • dual of the name of Itklntosh, at Present in Bedlam as a lunatic. The Petitioner g ated -6 th . he was, in 1816, tried at the Old Bailey on a cI I Z I o f forgery, and acquitted ; but he had A K* confined as a lunatic in Bedlam, to which 01 A L 6 was committed on an order of the htefai t i e f:"a Thompson ; but stating that be was now ran o praying relief from the Housb. • Mr. WYNN submitted to the would suffer a Petition to be laid from a person confined in Bedlam, inquire whether he was a lunatic? Mr. HUME said, the Petitioner have the House to inquire into his mind, and not into what was when he was sent to this asylum. that the physicians of the establish:_ this unfortunate man as in sane-mind. was then ordered to lie on the table. LOYAL PETITION!' • Sir JOHN NEWPORT reminded having called its attention, on a ' some libellous matter against the a Petition from the Presbytery of fished in the Gazette. That Address, spoketfiesentinunts of the addressers, but a small proportion of the popular He held in his hand a Petition froin by 240 inhabitants of that small deep concern at the proceedings and Penalties attempted to be sap witnesses, and received its failure tiont. prayed the restoration of her the Liturgy ; that the confidence+ be withdrawnfroin hii. Majesty's it would turn' attention to the Representationof the People, and p land, and attributing all the evils 'country laboured to the defective tation.. The letter transmitting declared it to have been adopted , the Loyal Address he had alluded him for his exertions in exposing Sir R. FERGUSON seconded , ing up the Petition ; and he must a few words on the Milan Commission. Session brought forward a motion on and he was now asked, whenever the conduct ,of that Board, sal , bring forward some motion on astonished at thii taunt, thus thrown of inquiry originating on his side - a mockery, after the divisions nessed. Could any man doubt majority (who would blindly followu. of ::is, even ag ainst their own-consictioa, the wishes of .. their Constituents), • ately quaih such a motion? Cos*i self, he should refrain 'from bring motion on the subject. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH the Honourable General in all ing bringing forward any motion said nothing of the conduct of t ,sion, or of the Noble Lord. He to be judged-by posterity—(Hear, of the House )-. fully satisfied agree with his Honourable and understood the individuals who Commission were persons of character, not but express his astonishment duali had not themselves called.' Lord CASTLEREAGH thought time to go into incoiry.respectir mission. With respect to thrills 'that Commission, -their characters investigation ; they were desiress believed Rita never been held bound to go into the expense cause an individual might desire Mr. BENNETT wished the r sidered not only the expense, country, before he had instituted c He could assure the Noble Lord come when the country would being incutred.The Petition and ordered to be printed. THE AFFAIRS 01 Sir J. MACKINTOSH rose , motionon thii subject. .He had, 'been desirous of postponing it '• he consulted his own convenience public duty would not allow hir to call the attention of the House question, •which involved the ' existence of every nation of Europe, to call itself independent. W have commenced, it might cided that Naples should again hordes of the North, yet still that he should delay bringing . forward endeavooring to ascertain what had bad in encouraging a contest bability, would- overwhelm - bloodshed—(Hear, hear).---The tainly againt Naples, but no might terminate. If the Neapolitan litary caution, as well as politica' Spain, they would retire to their' defensive warfare, the only liberty. The object of his pi min information of the conduct on this great question. The !- 'Mind a Circular to the varit at Foreign Comas, directing them they were to adopt in conseqi tion of the 'Sovereigns •at T reigns at Troppau had also in that Circular the three Sovereit, the terms .on which they would their vassals, the other Kings rope, to hold their territories—( INoble Lord's Circular was the sr Could be pronounced upon ti__ Itmingies of Bonaparte ever called than that which the Noble Lord late Royal and Imperial Allies. bad; in fad, beettimpeached ti roperlyio, for the system of cording even tosbe•Noble Lord'i was 'to' introduce a foreign arm' Wlr! I ilLin l i tt c ia i id i iv i keme ß onto t ,H ;ti i.ate ro . i pet i n thti ' e r f h y haiiy:efiht;i o cd u r 4a tnisii t n :brme c a te : th a 7 kl3:4z a r .. 4" ;: 4l.6 : le was no w ap e , as i ie House al t h e . ; • nto Cra yg:hleaa)i:iiitibao,ndc,:se!Hoe;f:Liiioumnimiis:llP:A.neviersiereislhensiocccdellPailroc:reaidfb::imeietibiluiow,isaitatthil7:: fob an d dress, he had nodaa i , • - •essers, but wbo thatet see ()potation of that m a y, id oho Langholis!, nod • Mai 11 town, ant anev i iit supported b y- not- ore not- ureWith , gre at mat o . • y f her Majety's da m e . who ice of this House shall the litellna state d e OM ad panicalarby itig e tish evils nudes whirl* Bette rive state of Ra ga , Om tg to him the•Fethi s k teed in - Mansequaltai luded to, and thaw An ing that Address; Fi e' ed the maim lora* the Must be allossd l in Ali Comp yahoo. Bel motion on this f.; ever he comp't Yid why be did not airy race n this snhject?• *d e, she s titrmvn To-n!• D e s __ side of the Hon** r° es they had lately sit. due bt that the NobleLudi Aga, • follow. an/' pupae *X I ! conviction, and agiit Pp_ us), would not ilia w ho Convinced !a° bringihg forwards, 111 ° 9 egY /SH fully *ad vii- to g all he h ad said rams Li/ Sion on thii rabject.'& of the Milan Coma , 8 ° He would leave th ud u°' Veer, hettr,,ftia adder Pa,, l d that poasity nd gallant Fiend. lie Kil _ I Ito composed the Mia m ay character, and he coil utit ment that those Milo , APP 11e4 for inquiry. bt thought ibis was ma )ecting the Mil:mow : 4 1 'individuals who :acters would her 'roils of isqiiity; Mk eld that Psatiamessia e of public iaqiiro► esire it. be Noble Lord hay bee !, but ohs bonserithi 'to uted this Commie. - °P! Lord the time • E t % ad lutist on dimple ad . ! xt was that inegitilo . OF- NAME& b i te use to bring forrs l 1i tbal had, for mtay Mot be it for a shoats/kW the nience; but his • • ea him to delay do. vett louse to this impel' sup e interests and es" • the Europe, which ciao beii War might by dad, Vez t already have bees ver, rain be over-rut by Lot 1 that was no roust ' ;tire cward this inotiok 'ef what share this lart :ontest which, ia all • It 1 ; Europe with or cC - -The chances Sere au io one could say Ito. an eapolitans had leant au political principle, • • :dm heir fastnesses, , ly chance they b e d ..the 'resent motion was !flgC duct of this G. e Noble Lord bad lit • various British W them as to the th. be )o T v e rri se q uen ce s o es p ui gp o ed a ns h; f ac b d th u ir t p e ciodu th:e s . :l: ! iv : l2 would consent to ings and Princes Jo_ ies—( Hear , he a d . he severest censure! not that C i rcular ; d by thbfaciaopedr.Nraibesni7L..be:;:ers:7,ol4i• . n :ode sa : Lord's ofd' conam-- army into chit • . • -