Star. — London, England, 1814-11-16 00:00:00

aeons owing to any unforeseen events or circum stances, those who had formed it must resort to that House, to state the deficiency, and endeavour to make it good. The several Resolutions were then agreed to; and a Committee of Ways and Means of the whole House was fixed for to-morrow. ALLIED POWERS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought up certain separate and additional Articles, between the Allied Powers, subsequent to March the Scf, 1813, and signed at Leipsic, on the 22d of Oc tober.—Ordered.to lie on the Table. PAYMENTS TO THE COURT OP SPAIN. Mr. A. BARING, previous to his moving for Papers relative to Payments to the Court of Spain, expressed a wish to ascertain how far the power of furnishing the contingent of this country had been reserved to us ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, in reply, that many things remained in an unarranged stare, which would be settled by his Noble Friend (Lord Castlereagh) at Vienna. He had no difficulty in stating, however, that we bound our selves to furnish our portion of troops fer the general purposes to which they might be employed in the at tainment of the common end. . Mr. A. BARING said, that, in making the mo tion he was about to submit for the production of papers respecting our payments to the Court of Spain, there was one point he wished most to clear up. He was desirous to know if the sole object of the agree ment with that country, was not purely for the pur pose of taking money from the people of this? Sub sidies had been granted to Spain, on the condition of her keeping such and such a description of force; and he could regard such a proceeding as nothing short of a subsidiary treaty. His object, therefore, was to obtain such paper or papers as might throw light on the application of the sums granted in conse quence of the subsidiary treaty with Spain. It was a serious consideration that money had been granted at all, and in the manner it had been, without any communication to Parliament on the subject. What he wanted to know was, what kind of agreement had been entered into with Spain after the Treaty of Paris, and what money had been paid in consequence of it, since the restoration of Ferdinand had taken place ? He wished to know, at the same time, what Spain actually stood indebted to us. He should never have objected to the grant of money that mijiht be necessary to stimulate the operations of the Spanish • army in the common cause ; but when the war was over, his Majesty's Ministers had taken on themselves i to - sitithorise very considerable payments to the Court' of Spain, and this at the very moment when Spain was considerably our debtor. Nothing in the conduct of the Spanish Court could induce him to go farther. The papers he moved for would, he believed, con vince the House that it was improper for them to con • tissue in the same course with regard to Spain, and euablish the propriety and necessity of the motion he was about to make. Anxiety could not be too much manifested on this head, when the House considered the rumour now so generally afloat, which many be livved—he alluded to the general opinion entertained , throughout the country, that the Court of Spain bad been encouraged in its late career by the Governolis of Great Britain.—(lfeer, far),—He °by no means contended for the right of intermeddling with the Government of another State ; yet, considering what we had sacrificed in the cause of Spain, and coupling, • it with the present circumstances of that country, seeing the pernicious measures of the authority there established, if ever the right of interference was justi fied, and called for, it seemed to be demanded here. Even the first act of the re-established Government of Spain was an act of hostility on our con" There was nothing but suspicion in the present aspect of things. Ministers were called upon to explain.— He should conclude by moving, 46 That an humble Address be presented to his Royal Highness the Prince ? Regent, praying that he would be graciously pleased to order to be laid before that House a Copy or Co pies of any agreement that had been entered into be tween Sir Henry Wellesley and the Spanish Govern ment, relating to Subsidies, since the signing of the Treaty of Paris.“ Mr. W. POLE thought it was impossible for the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. A. String) to have so entirely misunderstood the nature of Ilse relations sub-' sisting between this country and Spain. Lord Castle.; reagh had himself stated, in that House, during the last Session, that certain treaties or engagements were about to be contracted, which would bind us to pro vide either troops or money, all which treaties were then in a state of forwardness. 4pain, notwithstand ing what the Honourable Gentleman said of subsi.' dicing, had received only part of the £lOO,OOO that was voted to her during last Session; and even this money was disbursed at the discretion of our Ambas sador or Commander who might happen to be sta tioned there. In consequence of representations to the Secretary of State here, as to the necessity of dis. banding the Spanish troops that were about to return to their country, two months instalment, out of four, had certainly been paid. But why this remuneration to the troops of Spain, it was asked, when Spain her self still owed monies to us ? Ministers had always understood that accounts of this kind were to be wound up at the close of the war, when the diffe ratie would be settled by the Spanish Gcorernment. Itt the mean time. the restoration of Ferdinand VII. takes place, who returns to his throne without the means of satisfying the demands of his disbanded troops but was England, who bad guaranteed to peptide for them, now to be condemned for having made good her faith ? (Hear, heir.) —As to the no torious acts of outrage and tyranny, to which, in the opinion of many wise men, the Government of Bonin had since conceived it expedient to resort, be was per fectly 'unconcerned in them. He would be quite sa tisfied for himaelf, and fur dime with whom be had the houotir to act. if the Honourable Gentleman (Mr ? A. Baring) would have the candour to Mate, after all, that be believed his Majesty's Government to be ineapible of autborislßg, much less encouraging 0, tronsiol proaredings now alluded to: Mr. BARING. in aapiamiskal, assured the Right lian.qautiassists (MS.V.PoIe) that be was far from balloting such* ckarga either to hu or his Right Hee. Colleigur I but that spa* such imiwepsson beg sopailagt se alsa counerr. was top well Ifteelns via rig** so be done awty. • 1144. POIZ .4114604, w 341 tab, . - either on his part, or the part of those with whom he acted, any encouragement that might be rumoured as afforded by Ministers to the recent proceedings in Spain. Directly, or indirectly, he now gave to such a charge the most unqualified denial.—(Hear, hear.) If it were becoming • for the British Government to interfere with the internal policy of any other, that interference would have for its object, not the subju gation, but the amelioration of the condition of the people. In the present instance, indeed, he should certainly move the previous question, as papers were about to be submitted to the House which must in a great measure tend to elucidate the discussion then in agitation.—[Here the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. Pole) read an extract of a dispatch from Lord Castlereagh, dated 30th July last, in answer to an application by letter from Sir H.Wellesley, which authorised the advance of certain sums in aid of the Spanish Court.] Mr. WHITBREAD observed, that he was by no means satisfied with the extract thus furnished to the House, and which seemed to be substituted tor in formation of a more decisive kind. But the contri bution on our part, be it what it might, in the cause of Spain, was intended to facilitate the return of the Spanish troops to their own country. Now, when four of the Spanish armies were actually within the Spanish frontier, where was the necessity for such an application of our subsidy ? The fact was, that the Spanish troops would many of them have been starv ed had it not been for the intervention of the English Commissariat. What he wanted to know, therefore,, was—whether, in fact, English money had not been applied to induce the Spanish troops to march against Madrid ? and, if so, whether this was the exact use to which Parliament had designed it to be put ? It it had not been for English money, money drawn from the pockets of a free people, nothing could have been done against those patriots who had fought for a So. vereign so ungrateful to them. Was it a fact, as he had been informed, that the English A mbassador (Sir H. Wellesley) was with that very army put in motion by our means ? After this, he suspected that the Papers now promised by the Right Hon. Gentle man (Mr. W. Pole) would not afford the informa tion he wished for. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he had intended to have selected some papers for the information of the House, and had hoped that the extract he already had given from Lord Castlereagh's dispatch would have satisfied every reasonable expectation. Sir H. Wellesley had beet called upon by the Spanish Government to advance the sum of £lOO,OOO. This advance had been ac cordingly made, when, having no instruction to pra ceed any farther, he wrote home to that effect.— There was, however, no subsidiary treaty, because no dependence could be placed on the certainty of Spain bringing armies to bear; and on this account we were accustomed to advance sums from time to time. It was not correct, however, that support was extended in this way without the knowledge or cog. nizance of Parliament, who were apprised, trom year to year, of our being in the practice of supporting Spain with money. Spain being unable to maintain those troops, the character of their services made it our duty to provide for them. He was now prepared to tender some incidental explanation, as to the giving up of certain persons by the Commander at Gibraltar to the Government of Spain. May the. 16th, 1814, it appeared that the British Consul. at Cadiz (Sir James Duff) informed the Governor of Gibraltar (General Smith) that four persons had fled thither from Andalusia, accused of sedition, and that, one of these refugees was the fabricator of the false hoods that had been circulated respecting the beha viour of the British troops on the taking of St. Sebas tian ; and requesting, finally, that the offenders should be given up to the Government whence they had fled. At length two of those persons were dis covered, identified, and surrendered by General Smith. Though the Government of this country were in no ways concerned in this transaction, nor disposed to defend it, yet the House should reflect that it had been customary, from time immemorial, when on terms with Spain, to deliver op any mal contents who sought to shelter themselves in Gibral tar; the proximity of that garrison to Spain would otherwise be the occasion of serious evils to both.— conceiving the two persons in question to be dan gerous both to the Governments of England and Spain—(Near, hear)—General Smith had surrender ed them as reported. No sooner was Lord Bathurst first apprised of this act on the part of General Smith, in June last, than he expressed his dislike of the pro ceeding, and cautioned the General not to repeat it. General Smith had acted by the instructions of Sir James Duff, whose conduct he was far from defend. ing. There had been no disposition strewn by us to assist the progress of tyranny in Spain, the reports on Otat head being wholly calumnious.—(Near, hear.) He should have been happy to have produced Sir H. Wellesley's letter, had it not been connected with nsattersof subsidy still in progress. Mr. TICRNE Y and the CHANCELLOIt of the Exam. QUER now explained ; when the former said he wished to know only the dates of the papers now moved for. Mr. W. POLE said, in explanation, there had been nothing like an engagement ; but that attloo,ooo h4s been advanced by way pf winding up. Mr. WHITBREAD said, he should be sorry if the House were to separate ender the impression of his being at all satisfied with the explanation respect ing the conduct of General Smith. Lord Bathurst was informed of the transaction on the 80th of June, and, instead of strongly reprobating the affair as he might have done, he contented himself with the sim ple exhortation of.--J , Go, and sin no more !" (Hear, pear.) But, Sir James Duff, the British Con. sul at Cadiz, what right had Sir James puff, who was he ? to venture to instruct General Smith to in. 'erfere between the Spanish Government and the Spanish Patriots, and cause the latter.to be delivered up to their enemies l--(Hear. hear.) Suppose they were libellers, they were entitled to be presumed in nocent till they were convicted. Here the Honour able Member (Mr. Whitbread) strongly reprobated die measure taken'by General Smith : saying, that the dispatch of Lord Bathurst ought to be produced, as the ground of proceeding against that officer. Mr. - B. BATHURST was not disposed to deny that General Smith bad gone too far, qioce this evi. diatly was the feeling pf the Secretary for the Home Department by whose letter he stood cautioned and I reproved. t was clear, at the same time, that the Hojaaorable Gentleman biwself (Mr. laitbread), was fbr proceeding toe far NMI* way. General Smith bad unfortunately lent himself in aid of prose cutions, whigh no person could regret more than he (Mr. Bathurst) did, and the rest of his Majesty's Government. The repetition of the error was pre vented, however, which seethed all that we could ra tionally look for. Mr. BARING in reply observed, that it appeared + that• Ferdinand had been restored four months before the payment was made, therefore he would leave it to the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether this pay ment was made for any practical purpose, conform. able to its original purpose, and whether it was not long after the war was concluded. Therefore, it was merely to enable the King of Spain to carry on pro. secutions against his own subjects. Now, although there was nothing to produce to the House in the shape of arrangement, yet there could be no objection to produce the dates of the payments. He was-ready to withdraw his first motion, but he would take the sense of the House on the second. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he was ready to produce papers so far as they could be made up. Mr. WARD conceived it necessary to repel the attack which was made on the English Consul, by stating those circumstances of justification that came to his knowledge. Sir James Duff's defence was, that being informed of some improper persons having got into Gibraltar, who were unfit to be in a garrison town, he allowed them to be given up, when an ap plication was made to him for that purpose ; and so -far from censure, he thought the conduct of the Con-I sul deserving of commendation. Mr. WHITBREAD said, that so far from com mendation, Sir James Duff deserved the severest re ' proaches that could be cast upon him for such an act as that which it was acknowledged he had done.— He then asked if the Hon. Gentleman who became the advocate of Sir James Duff, would have any ob jection to give up his letter which related to the sur render of those persons Mr. WARD observed, that he did think it would be advisable to do so. (Near hear.) The first motion was withdrawn by Mr. BARING ; he then moved for the following papers which were granted : An extract of a dispatch from Sir H. Wellesley to Lord Castlereagh, with Lord Castlereagh's answer. An account ut all sums of money paid to the Spa nish Gnvz.rnment since the restoration of Ferdinand VII. with the dates of the payments. And a statement of the monies due by the Spanish Government to this country, so far as the same could, be made out. Mr. WHITBREAD gave notice, that on Tues day nest he would move for a copy of the correspon dence which took place between General Smith and Earl Bithurst, relative to the giving up of the Spa niards who so'ight refuge in Gibralt4r ; and also co- pies of the correspondence of Sir James Duff. CIVIL LIST. Mr. TIERNEY moved for an account of the Ex penes: ut the Civil List for the years 1813 and 1814. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER opposed the motion, on the ground of its never being one of course, but brought forward always after due notice. Mr. TIERNEY said, that if such was the usual 'rule, he was justified in departing from it, when be 'hewed that the Civil List was no longer an agree. anent between the Crown and the people ; for the ex ceeding had become, by a sort of recognized proceed. ing, upwards of £200,000 a-year. Besides, the tran sactions of the last quarter, he thought, ought to have put the House on its guard on this subject, when a Noble Lord (defending his relation) refused to give any account of the money disbursed from the Lord Chamberlain's Office. When there was a general and settled belief in the public mind that great expen diture is going on, such as a large Palace in contesn ' plation of being erected by the Regent, it was proper to bring the subject before Parliament. Besides great earners were incurred in the Diplomatic List, whictt must come out of the Civil List. There was also A'36,000 expended in the purchase of a splendid mansion for Lord Wellington at Paris. If th! accounts were laid before Parliament from quarter to quarter, it would be seen that a Committee should be immediately ap• pointed to controul the Crown on the subject of ex. pence ; for the expenditure of the Civil List for the last year amounted to 41,300,000. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that in a short time he would have to explain tho cause of the increased expence to the House, and, therefore, he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman might stop till that period ; for be thought there was no necessity for the Accounts of the Civil List being laid before Parliament oftener than once a year. That subject should be fully discussed by Parliament, as it only could provide for the increase of expence in the Civil List, which had arisen opt of our political relit ions in a very great measure. The number of Ant. vassedors necessary at the period of the late glorious 'evolutions on the Continent would not be a peruse sent expence to the country. With respect to the re. tidence of the Duke of Wellington, that was certainly In be paid for in tour years out of the Civil List, bey fore which time it would not be completed. It was desirable that the Embassy should be on a splendid scale, worthy of this country, and of the occasion which called his Grace thither. As to the other items, they were founded upon rumours. Mr. TIERNEY contended, that all his "rumours" rare founded in fait, as would be seen in respect to he Sinking Fund. He could not avoid thinking that he Duke of Wellington's house was on an extrava ;ant pl tn. It was true that £2OOO a year was to be leducted from the allowance of £lO,OOO which is riven to his Grace; but was it just or equitable to addle his Grace with the expense ? There were al. eady mansion houses iq Paris fitting for an Aloha:. itdor, without incurring_ a debt on the Civil List of '36,000. The Right Hon. Gentleman condemned le appointment of Mr. Canning, with so large a s ay r y as £14,000, when Mr. Bydenham bad oat 1,500, merely for the purpose of congratulating the urn of the Prince Regent from the Brazils, when the gratulation might hate been written for Mr. Syden• in, instead of sending the eloquent Mr. Canning. justified the appellation of 64 scandalous job,' iich he had used on 4 former night, as a good old! *tioned parliamentary phrase, and recognized by well-disposed Christmas,"—(4l latch. ) All the nds of Mr. Canning were to be provided for i some places, otbeys are to be made Baronets; so dat it was with these Cattlemen, as with the loot L et . tery, they all got prizes, there were no blasks.—(4 laugh.) But, an truth, to be serious, the Right Holt. Gentleman, by his embassy, would take g 90,000 out of the public purse, at a moment when the country was in the greatest distress in its financial department. He would divide the House on the question, if he only had two Members with him. Mr. HUSKISSON said, that there were much greater arrears at former periods in the Civil List than now. In 180*, there were seven quarters doe, and an Act of Parliament passed, providing, that at any future period, if the Civil List should be Mb quarters in arrear, then, as a matter of necessity, the account was to be laid before the I louse. Then loi • lowed another ,Act, providing, that when it hA c £lO,OOO in arrear, the accounts should also be pm duced. To agree with the motion of tl e Right Hon. Gentleman, would be in direct opposizihn to the pro. vision of the two Acts which he had just referred to. Mr. Hoskisson then defended the appointment of his friend, Mr. Canning, and stated that the appointments of MT. Sydenham were between 5 and 46000 a-year. With respect to the embassy of his Right Honourable Friend, the salary is fixed at the lowest rate given to Ambassadors, which is 48,200; and he is desired to confine himself within the pale of aeonctniy, on the . score of ultra expenses, but in no wise to exceed £14,000 per annum. He denied that the mission was one of an insignifichht nature. It must be recollected,. both in a political and commerciaineint of view, that - it might procure ad vantages to this country of the' highest moment. 'hie Right Hon. Gentleman then defended the part which he had taken in accepting his office—he did so from honest motives, and therefore stood acquitted, in his own conscience. With respect to the little reward (the pension) which he had received for former services; that was now suspend. —(Ner.) Mr. WHITBREAD said that he •agreed with the lion. Gentleman( Mr.Huskisson) as to the propriety oT acting with a party while that party Pursued measures which he could approve of. Bat it remained to be seen on what ground the Honourable Gentleman could support the Chancellor of .the Exchequer on the important questions respecting which he had dif fered float him in the two last Sessions. He had been accused of attacking Mr. Canning in his absence, but how otherwise could he attack a nun• whose ab sence was theround of his complaint. When that Right Hun. Gentleman had been present. he (Mr. Whitbread) had never shown any disinclination to attack him on parts of his political conduct which he had considered improper. As to the friends of the Right Honourable Gentleman, he had never heard that they had been dismissed by him because they were an obstacle to his advancement, but because he was unable to advance them. It was then that it had been said by one of them, to I have lost my mas ter without a character, and I want a place! '—(A laugh). —With all his shining talents Mr. Canning had been unable to force himself into place, and be therefore advised his friends to shift for them. selves. They were, however, at present pretty well provided for ; one had the Mint, another a seat lan the Council, another the Woods and Forests.—Mr. Canning's talents he (Mr. W.) was far from depre ciating.; but there was no one whom be was more as. tonished to hear speaking with delight of them than the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for they were never more happily exerted than in the castigation of that Right Hon. Gentleman and his political friends, and often while the House was in convulsions of laughter. the present Surveyor of Woods and Forests,with other of his friends, were seen handing, in the shape of quo cations, notes, &c. fresh cat-o'aine.taßs. to lace rate the unhappy victims. In accepting the em bassy to Lisbon, Mr. Canning had descended from a height which he could never regain. The Ho nourable Gentleman admitted, that if any prospect could be fairly held out that the consequence of t h e appointment of an Ambassador Extraordinary, would be the concurrence of Portugal in the Abolition of the Slave Trade • he would consent that the country should sustain the additional charge of 43000 a year. But would Ministers venture to hold out any such hope ?—or could not the subject have beeq equally well negotiated by a Minister ? The appoint ment was of a sum not exceeding £6OOO, but there could be no doubt from long experience that the full amount would be expended by Mr. Canning. A• Right Hon. gentleman (Mr. Hoskisson) had ad verted to the gratitude due to Mr. Canning for the provision he had made far his political friends. One of them (Mr. Huskisson) who felt, and justly felt, the strongest gratitude, was now sitting at the side of the Chancellor of the Exchelber, having, by the kind interposition of the new Ambassador Extra ordinary, obtained a place under Ministers. (Hew.) This appointment would douUtless be equally fortu nate for the country, since, if consistent, lie would now have an opportunity of realising some of those plans of economy and retrenchment in our expenses, which he had in a former Session so often and so strenu ously pressed upon the attention of the House. How the great differences of opinion between those two Gentlemen had been arranged be did not know, but be presumed that some sort of compromise had taken place. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Vansit tart) had omitted in his speech to give any explana tion as to the appointment of several other new diplo matic characters. With respect to the appointment of Lord Wellington, from his pre-eminence in every way, he was undoubtedly the fittest person to be se lected for the Embassy to Paris. But Mr. Whitbread wished to know whether he was allowed a contingent bill of unlimited expenses ? If so, of what possible advantage was a fixed salary ? It was a formidable state of things indeed, when all these enormous ex penses were proved to have been incurred out of the Civil List, and yet no account of the excess was to be produced. Suppose the Regent were to say that would have a magnificent palace, that should cost many thousand pounds, and that the Chancellor of the Exchequer only was to be called upon to provide the money, and to be acconntable for it, what course, in such a case, it had been asked, would he adapt He had replied , that he would send in his resignation. But change the word Palace into cottage, and first 433,000 was granted, then 030,000, and afterwards 5e60,000 more, for which the Chancellor of the Ex chequer was slooe responsible, and yet he had not thought fit to execute his threat of sending in his re signation—stub an effect had the mere change of s name I—As to the late fooleries in the Park (tor they could be called nothing else), which had given satis faction to nobody. they were all to be paid out of the 1