Star. — London, England, 1817-04-30 00:00:00

may looked forward to tee It not commuted. but &bungled Iliottether. The RIII was then read a second taus % sad entered ex be committed nn Monday be'ciriglit. FINANCE. • • Mr. PI; EL moved, Oat the several Estimateefor • the miscellaneous s ervie, s of Ireland, now beforethe House, sl Id h. , eferred to the Finance Committee. Mr. TIERNEY wished to know when the Filmic' Committee' were expected to Report on the Income • and Expenditure of the country They were at pre. sent occupied with the Ordnance Estimates of the Army, and having disposed of them, they proposed ' to taki• tip those of toe Navy, sn that he apprehen ded sonie weeks most elapse before they would make another Report could wish t,. ask the Charrcel lor of the Exchequer if he meant to talc hien in the present year, or if be had any intentin find ing Exchequer B•Ils ? It was rumoured tto he did n t propose t. du either. and it this were the fact, the House most see how important it was that they should be made acquainted with the Right H•mour shit Gentleman's lie w scheme 'if fin ince. That a lame sum must in some way be raised for the service of the year, was that which could not ha disputed, but he thought the House ought not to wait for the Report of the Committee otisestimates not yet refer. red to th.m, before they were put in possession of the Right Honourable Gentleman's plan. It they did finis, he visited in press upon the Home at what very late period of the Session they must enter upon the discussion of the finances art the country. Mr. 1). G I L UER I' said, it was true the C4mmit. tee were at present occupied with the Ordnance Esti- • mates. hut orders, in the mean time, had been given ti fhe proper officers to prepare the Estimates tr. the Income and Expenditure of the present and next year, • to be laid before OEM. It was the object of the Committee, when the Ordnance Estimates were dis rosed of, to proceed .without delay to take up those two in ; ; ;ii, blanches of the inquiry-.the expendi ' tore awl silsonie or the country. 1 ise Estimates it • *as otcrs , Ary to go through with first, to form the ground work of their subsequent proceedings. and these before them it would soon be in their power to report to the House. Mr. TIERNEY remarked, it was clear what must be the result—a great issue of floating securities of some description or other. It was, however, proper that the House should know in what way the Chan cellor of the Exchequer proposed to provide fur the service of the year, and above all, what amount set Exchequer Bills bad been purchased by the Bank, of which they had at present no account. The CHANCELLOR of she EXCHEUER was desirous of expediting, bf every means in his power, the proceedings of the Finance Committee. It was, however, obvious, while occupied with one particular branch of the inquiry, they could not give their attention to other parts of the subject, so as to be able to report on the probable expenditure and re. venue of the country, till the Estimates had hero successively brought before them, and till they had bad an opportunity of examining those petssnc who were capable of giving them that information on which their Report must be grounded. They were Dew taking the course necessary to put them in pus 'session of such information as would enable them to hem an opinion on the objects referred ty. Mr TIERNEY observed, thustexaminations on which their Report was to be made for the intermit tion of the House had not yet begun. Such. was now ' sof nutted to be the situation in which matters stood. The House would remember how he had been scouted when this Committee was moved for, on his propos ing that two Comm - Vass should be formed instead of • one. Had the course he recommended been then pursued, at this day they would have had a general view of the state of the country before them. Now ho'would defy any man to say such a statement could 'be brought forward Tor discussion earlier than in the *otitis 01 June. The ESUMA es for the Miscellaneous Services of Ireland wire referred to the Committee of Finance.. • THIRD IaCitiTARYOI oTATS . Mr. TIERNEY rose to resume a motion he hod 'made last year. namely, for a Committee to enquire • into the propriety of abolishing the office of Third Secretary of State; and he did so, because be had no chance when the subject was left to the opinion of the House, for Gentlemen then heard only assertion on - each side. The *lotion he would conclude with had already the sanction of the Treasury, although they .stot be aware of it—for last year they had ap pointedA Committee. viz. Mr. Sturges Bourne, Mr. lieskisson, and Lord Castlereagh, to consider what offices might be abolished which bad only originated it the war. Now. this office was created in 1794, and therefore sprung outof the war ; yet these three Corn toissioners neglected to recommend this office to be Abolished. lie did not mean to say that the business ie colonies was'not great, but he contended that office was not the place for transacting the busi of the colonies. 1 his office was considered by .. Burke as an excrescence growing out of the ne cessities of the ease. In 1802, the business of the Co- es was transferred front the Home Secretary to War ; and then it grit the name of the War and Colonial Officeii-i-a name which seemed to bid fair.for ance. This otsght to have carried but-half . but it fanlight with it a whole one; and as the business of the office was over, he thought now might get rid of the. remaining half.—lf the Co had not increased since 1792, there would be fficulty in getting rid of this obnoxious half of office. There were nine additiohal Colonies and mac ; and suppose those Colonies bad been ceded Treaty of Peace, would any man have said, ttiat woula then have required a new Secretary tit to manage them and if so what more neces was there for a Third Secreiary to manage theta His proposal was to throw back the business Colonies to the Home Secretary's office, as the of Portland had, at the time he was at the of the Executive Government, the stamp anent Aliens, the Militia, and the whole Irish Cones .pondeace, when that country was in a state of rebel lion. Let Gentlemen consider those duties, andihen - if the present Secretary could have so much busi. as to prevent him from eating, drinking, and Ott The Duke of Portland never complained 4st haven* too much to do. Let them examine Lord , ichester, and it he said the Colonies were taken his Ake in 1801, at his request, because be had uch to do, then be (Mr. Tierney), would shut truth, and never speak but in taereor of a Third sectary. Lord Sidmouth could not now complain of Irish Correspondence, er the Militia, or Aliens.; Fend; indeed, the Office of tie Home ' Secretary was no ping now but a Genefil Police Office.— The Abolition of this Office wbuld be a saving of 412,(x00 to the country; but the Finance Committee had paid no at entina to it. Besides, by abolishing this Office, the country would also save arlOtX) a year, which might be granted to the Secretary in twas years :nom His conscientious conviction was, that the lousiness of the Colonies would not be too much (if transferred) for the Home Department. The Cape of Good Hope, Ceylon, and the Mauritius, might well be transferred to the superintendance of the Board of Controul, for they came naturally under its guidande. Then there would remain but six Colonies :o be transferred to the Home Secretary's office.— l'hus £1'2,000 would easily be saved, aniglit be applied to many other u s e s . Th e ComrMe would examine Lords Chichester and Spencer, and others; And he was sure they would obtain a body of evidence w. licit would sbew that the office of a third Secretary State was totally useless. He ridiculed the labours of the Finance Committee, and called their Report an old vamped up Report ; and that where they re• commended to abolish one office, they recommended to establish a new one. He was afraid no good would be effected by that Committee, and he there fore called on the House to assist him in the great wok of economy. 'They would stop short of their du. y if they did not measure salaries by the absolute qa inti:y of labour performed. It wits a miserable thing to throw them•back 10 per cent. out of salaries of eteat Otfic vs of Stare, which salaries no nun could thiok too high.. There would be a difference between our Iticam and Expenditure for the year of not less tl•an 14 millions; and how that was to be made good Goo only knew, for he did not. This saving of sel2,o(kl would he nothing to 14 millions, but it was beginning at the right end: for it was easy to disciiinge a number of poor Clerks. What he wanted was, that all Offices that had nothing to do should be abolished, and not those which per torrard loge duties for their salaries. If there Was a real economical Treasury, much saving might be made by the consolidation.of ethics in this way, in stead of being drivel, by webs of weather to abolish them. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Cornwall, the Master of the Milo, and the Treasurer of the Navy, oil& now to do something for their large salaries. The grossest pretences were made to keep up those Offices ; and. indeed, there was no more necessity for a Third Secretary, than there was for • Third Archbishop. II they did not consent, to prim tie: economy, all the suspensions of the Habeas Cor. pus Act they could devise, would not prev e nt a julti &hie atscontent in the country He then moved— " Tbat a Committee be appointed to take into consideration the humans to be transacted by the Secretary of ita•v for the War and Colonist Department, anti to raper.: their opinion wits • t i mer t h e said peke wa. &sty longer accessary, and whether the duo. sto it might, wlbout inconverdince to the i.ublic serviee he transferred to whet Departments, and with whit diminutio n of charge." Mr. - GOULI3ORN, in rising to make some obWr dons upon what had fallen from the Right Honour able Gentleman, said, he find certainly no personal right to object to the Motion that had been made; and he was quite teady to suppose that the Right Honinrable Gentleman had submitted it without re ference to personal considerations. The propisit ipo was for a Comm tier, in point of krm ; but fie wits warranted in looting upon it. as for the abolition of the office of Colonial Secretary in point of fact— (Holm Lear.). Gentlemen on the other side never made a Motion foe Inquiry, without meaning aboli tion—(Hear, Itear.) He should, therefore, not stop to inquire whether it was necessary to appoint a se parate Committee, while a Committee consider ing what Offices might be abolished was sitting, but address himself at once to the question on its merit; With respect to that Committee, howereri he must say, that if the Report it had presented were ma, satisfactory,Geotleroati on the other side of the House' might to charge it upon themselves for not lending the Committee their assistance. After refusing to do so, he thought objections came from them with a very ill grace. Before any person could agree to the abolition of the office of Third Secretary of State, he must satisfy himself that them was no present business sufficient to.-occupy that department, and that what there Was might be transferred to another. Both . these suppositions were fallacious. He (Mr. Goulburn) should not, in order to prove this, enter into a detail of the number ot letters received in the Colonial Office, which might be open to objections, and to the witticisms of the Right Hon. Gentleman, *as former details had been; but he should take the pages of the books of office for comparisen,.of which it appeared, that in the fourteen years from 1768 to 1782, there were 9139 per annum ; audio the fourteen years from 1802 to 1816, there were 6068 pages per annum devoted to the affairs of the same colonies. In both instances he had taken the wane twelve Colonies. It might be said that this increase was to be aitri- I buted to the war, which had now ceased, but only a small share of 'it could fairly be placed to that ac count; for, between the last year of peace and the preceding one of war, there was not a difference of more thaulvo hundred pages of entry. The inmate of business in the Colonial Office had arisen since 1808, and principally since 1806. The facilities el popular education, which now' enabled persons of every rank ot life- to communicate their grievances, and to write about their affairs to the Office, was the great cause of it. But there were other causes : since the year 1808. the Act for the abolition of the Slave, I Trade had created lull employment for one person. Constant vigilance and exertion were necessary to' shear that we were sincere in the expression of our wish ro abolish this trade—a vigilance necessarily ex tended beyond the Coast of Africa. Colonial mea sures, arising out of the Slave Trade abolition, had a claim upon the attention of the department, and no little case was necessary in reference to the legisla tion of separate colonies; in watching the feelings and interests of colonists, and securing, point by point, those ameliorations in the condition of the slave population, which could only be secured point by point. This part of the business had increased so much, that Government could not, in his opinion, abolish the office, whatever might be their disposition, to reduce the public expenses. He was confident too. though it was hardly a consideration with which he had any thing to do, that there ;vas as other public department with sufficient time and leisure to abstract torn its own immediate (hides, fat the transaction of all the business ot the colonies. It was moreover of importance, as k appeared td bias, to have a re_sponsible Minister for - the Coloniesr- The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) had been good enough to compliment him (Mr. Goulhurn) and say that he night conduct the busi ness under the head of some other department; but the same argument might be applied to every other' office, so as to leave Government in the hands of one principal, with a number of agents moving the diffe. rent departments of the State under him. Free dis-1 cussion was considered the cause and the protection of our liberty, but it the number of Cabinet Mini sters were to be reduced in this manner, where would be die security arising from_the deliberations and dis cussions of the heads of the Government ? The Co. lonics could not be heard in . that House by their Re presentatives, but they ought to have an establish ment which should represent them, and .through which they might be heard. He caul I not surprise that the House, for the sake of saving re 12,000 a. year, would wish to leave the Colonieswithotit a re sponsible head; and because he thought the abolitibn this office would lead to the misgovernment of the Colonies, and be productive of greater disadvantages than could be compensated by the saving of the sa lary befogging to it, he should oppose the motion. • Mr. MARRYAT 1' said, in 1768, a change took place from the safe road of experience, and Govern ment b •gan to wander in the mazes df experiment. A thud Secretary of State wit iippointed, and Ame rica had been alienated from the mother-country for ever. Some Statesmen were like gentlemen farmers; and the same results were likely to follow the experi ments of the present day. Mr: GOULBURN rose to order. He thought the Honourable Member was not addressing himself to the question before the House---(Order, order). Mr. MARRYATT proceeded. Under the former system, he observed, it was not necessary to send gar risons from this country to protect the inhabitants of our colonies, as was the case at present. The reve nues of the colonies were the property of the Crown. Parliament had no controul over them, and he need not say, there was an end of the liberties of the pen. pie, when the Crown could collect taxes from them without controul. Persons who were engaged in the administration of despotic authority in the colonies, afterwards came back to the mother country; and he would put it to the House how tar their temper and' !sabots would amalgamate with the spirit of our in-' stitutions, it it so happened that they were 'clothed with authority here ? In Trinidad lately, a Procla mation had struck at the titles of every estate; it de dared them forfeited, but offered to renew them upon the payment of a fine of sgloo, by each proprietor These objections he made to the system and not to indiv•cluals. Tn.: Colonial office was rather an office of transmission. • Le:ters were-received aqd taken to pieces -there, and rhen referred to diffeterft *cfejiart metal; so that hositiers has thus much multiplied. He had the authority of the Commissioners appointed by :I e Lords of the Treasury to the fact th L. this Was. impolitic and profligate ; for, in the case of the Commissary-General, they had reported that more trouble was occasioned by the form of referring bu sines to different offices than would be necessary to transact the nasinessitsell. From a variety or con siderations, but chiefly from the Constitutional ones to which he had adverted, he should give the propo. iation of the Right Honourable Gentleman his cor d;ar support. Mr. MOWN thought this was not the propertmo ment to eLter into a consideration of the particular topics which had been touched upon in the course of - . the debate. When-the moment arrived, his Honour able Friend who spoke last would probably have his coocurrence in most of hii conclusions upon our co lonial po.icy. But he should do himself injustice if, connected as he was with the colonies, and knowing the way in which the business of the Colonial De partment was transacted, lie did nut declare it as his decided opinion that the superintendence of so im portant an establishment was sufficient to engage the undivided attention of one Head of Department. Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox, differing as they did in other things, concurred in the expediency of giving the Colonies separate estates. Nut only property but life depended on the nature and quality of measures pur-' sued with the Colonies, and he thought the Home Secretary could nut possibly give them sufficient at tention. He would naturally attend most to the af fairs near home and neglect those at a dillance. Con. netted as be (Mr. Brown) was with the West Indies, he happened to know the difficultiee of the Registry Bill in one of the Colonies wets removed, and the local authorities were conciliated by the conduct of the Noble Lord (Bathurst). And as a change in, the department of that Noble Lord might weaken the' confidence of the Colonies in the Government at home, he should vote against the motion. Mr. BARHAM entirely differed from the opinion of the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last, thaF the confidence of the Colonies would be weakened by such a change as the motion contemplated. It was not a question of my Lord Bathurst. my Lord Sid. mouth, or the Honourable Colonial Secretary oppo- site, but whether the business of one office could not bas well transacted in another.—( Wear, bear)? He was satisfied that nothing of Any weight could be said against the motion, or,the acuteness of the Honour. able Secretary would have mad, the most of it. An important saving was proposed, and the House, he thought, could not forbear going into Committee to examine whether it could be consistently made or not. Sir M. W. RIDLEY, alter having attended to all that had been said, could not find the arguments of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Tierney) answered. He WAS satisfied they were unanswerable ; nor would he weaken their force by going over them. The argil. ment that had been drawn from the number of pages of entry in the Colonial Office might be very good to thewahe employment of clerks, but did not establish the necessity of a third Secretary of State; nnr was it less preposterous to found an apology for this office on the efforts' of Mr. Lancaster and Dr. Bell—(Near, Aear). Every means, however trifling, should be at tended to for lessening the public burdens, and if ever there was a time when this office might and ought to be abolished, that time was the present. He should , -support the motion of his Right Hon. Friend. • Mr. WILBERFORCE said, we owed it to out great and impottent Colonies to see that they were well governed; and however acceptable the ;imposi tion ut the Right Hon. Gentleman of saving al 2,0(X) a year might be, and his was obliged to bun for the ,proposition—(hoer, Wulf • isoga)—it would be a bad bargair to safe this by tbe . sacriece of srt actjee efficient Government. fie was of opinion thai , business of the Colonial Offite could not j ine , l that of another office with advantage to the and be should vote against the motion. Mr. J. SMITH wished to recal to the ec lleri of the House, that during the time of the D o t e Portland, tl:e Istoidess was done without a 'hoofs, cretaty, and there wt re no complain:, of t h , wan; one. Mr. L3urkc coesidere ', that all the business; the Home, Foreign, and C. lonial Departments to g i be done by two Secretaries ; and at the presentbm the two former could have but little comparaiivelv The re eons which had been given for the a" lition of this effice had not been obviated by any .IL ..sg that bad fallen in the course of the debate. And Ls should, therefore, support the motion, Lord MILTON said, his Hon. Friend (Mr. berlurce) had added one to the many speeches he h e i made for economy, and had promised one to e.e nutty votes he had given for prodigality. Heseemsl to think that much government was good gevernmene but they were not always the same thing. (Bear) He agreed with a Hon. Member, that the arbitrary legislation of the Colonies was not a good school tur legislating at home. (Hear, hear.) While he was upoe this subject, he must say he was anxious that the Co lonies should be enquired into. He had a no:ion th:t great prodigality prevailed in them, and per. , in: is this country deceived themselves, it they ima e ii l ie they had no interest in the matter, because the Cr- Jetties had distinct revenues. It there was (id:. ciency. they looked to the mother country to make it up. It was singular that the Itepert 01 the tee, which had been laid en the omit., had taken L., notice of the offices of Secretaries of State. '!'iris ; : could not but consider a dereliction of duty. espe cially after the attention of the House kid torn oiled to it last year. As the Cummetee, therefore, had Le. glected it, it was the duty of the House to ewer upoi the enquiry fur itself. Mr. PROTHEROE admitted, that those who hat any doubts upon. the subject would be fully jiis':fi::d in voting for the motion. But he was decidedly of opinion, that the abolitiqn of the office in queetion would be the worst species of economy that could bi! adopted. He should therefore vote against the oie potntraent of a Committee. Mr. PONSONISY observed, that an Honourable Member behind him, so far from wishing to ahnlish the affice of Third Secretary, secured desirous ef creating a fourth ; fer Le stated the business arising Iromelse. Colonies to be so very considerable And im portant, that a superior Officer was nece , se) ha that 'department alone—(Hear, hear, hear.) This wes not the only ground on which he conceived such an ap pointment necessary; these was another reason be. sides the task of legislating for the Col :tees, which would dictate the creation of this new officer, mid tiler reason arose from tt e fact of the Ni.. 61,.• Secretary having written a conchs itory letter to the Celniecs in the coot se of the last year--(erear, hear, hear.) I 3 t he was not aware that it had been telt to be pet of the recurring duty of that departm e nt to send cat such tranquillizing documents: he thought the, reer% of that act did not belong to the Noble Lord, kit to the enligleened spirit which was manifest in tit House upon the subject last Session. That split bad dictated the letter to the Noble Lord—(lfren) Abother reason, which had been stated frr cohtive• lug this office was, that the HisicAiranle Gen:ler:me (Mr. Wilberforce) was convinced that it was necie sary to the dispatch of business in the Colonial De partment. But: the conviction of • that Gentitrean was not the conviction of the House, and tney ought to have the grounds upon which is rested befere they yielded to its influence. It the Honourable Gentle man would employ his powerful eloqisence, he might not only convince him (Mr. Ponsonby), but his kight Hon. Friend (Mr Tierney) might become a convert to the opinion —that the third Secretary was neces sary. He had certainly said some flattering thiuys of his Right Hon. Friend: he would give him praise for his intentions and his exertions, and indeed s:emed dliposed to give him every thing but his vote. — (Hear s hear, ad a laugh.)—He maintained that e:e office must be filled by a person of high consideration, but he (Mr. Ponsonby) would Ask, must it nece be filled by the third Secretary at State ? There wiz no person throughout the whole kingdom who did not see that the Noble Secretaries for the Home and Fo reign Departments, and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, were persons of high consideration, anti yet they had not beard that •any one of those Officers had so much business in theirrespective departments, as todisable them froth undertaking the duties in queo tion. The absence of all rearms to that effect WAS 11 good argument for the motion... What did the motioa ask Why, not to abolish the office, but to enquire it it may be abolished without injitty to the public service. His Right . Hun. Friend said to the House, look it you cannot save a sum of twelve thousand pounds a year to the public ; and what was the answer to this Why all which they had heard was, that a cony c• Lion was felt of thesnecessity of some officer, but they were not told why such an other was necessare.— Would then the House consent to the continuance of this office without enquiry. Could they yield up their duty to the unexplained convictions of Miiiieers; if they did, the Hi use would lose Lie good opinion of the public, and it would chew that they did not con• siatheir estimation anvlng tha Last night a proposal 'as made by the er, to issue Ex of the Exchequer, people— V Chan lie: icar, hear.) Exchequer Bills for tit: temporary relict of the poor. He did not intend to discuss that measure upon the present occasion referred to it to remind the House of th • general ad mission which was I.ist nipt made of the unexampie. l distress of the people, requiring that they shout.; have recourse to this nr;vel expedient of burtheii:ng vs • country still luttoer 'to save part of ;he popucalin't from starvation. Surely thou, this state of LWOW , de monstrated that the smallest savolge were not to b' despised—Meer, f.car.)--best every species of cee nomy, on the contrary, ought to he maulers!. It t:trn 'they deco mined to refuse all enquii y, the pople soieht say, when they were called urn) to supplY tier Mails of discharging the interest upon these Billy that t.i House, when it created used bt. would mat look tu•a the Antes of the public money, which might bac rendered it in pars at least us necessary. Mr. BARHAM And L ird NIL - rust explained. Mr. B. BATHURST conteitued, that all w!: :4 his Right ails. Friend had MAWS moot, with foie.' the Secretar y of the colmica le i,lat.ataig for the" parts of his Majesty's dominions, was e that as in r or: Secren chance House 'emit st street"; enisht panto • Waal offices is the thetefs Meissioi iboUsL of the this of Gess of Mt. B cessitit lonies the W Coloni contin salary, war IN lorries ,no dill this of to mt. by a 1 they v State I city w. outs ? of the Duke bead t of MI pendei Ifun. say if t • tilts a stet bawl Chiche from h son um his wui becr‘tv s▪ vg hai ico Pub. • • . !lee )Ilie rint 5.._ vADt 4 J inert of I IL-0.1 4 • .t4n ; ively ti he thslig and rt. V he hail to V., SeeMEl •niber.; 1/car.) bitchy loot or • as stroll ihr Co- ion that ~ a ta Lhe• cicii• • ke it kett r, ells(- n called !Lid i:e. et up a rho hi I , ls' ledly of lueF.tion uuld tar the 4- lurable abnLsh Nut cE arisin; kaid im- kir that Wes not an ars scn be. which lid tit cretary n.•. CS in ) le rill c,:r. Lrt t) iu e.lt t spurt (Hear.) htirt...• ricm neces- itl 1)e. .titneart olg!•.t •re they Gentle- e migh $ kight cunvert nece- ; thinys pr,o,r Szanei vote. — that t!:e cratton, ere W.ti did not Ind Fc- Duchy on, and Officers trnenti, in gull. was motioa owe service. ric it pest 3 Ten 0)11 i-- con v • c. out they lance of up their tees ; if intuit 01 lot eon • /▪ gar.) en lio: for tit: tentl ; 1e real Ad- ampit.l Li have :ng ci • Itt♦,dt 1:11 lugs dr x to b' of 4A.J. tarn c orcaitS that Cie