Star. — London, England, 1814-07-14 00:00:00

. .• whose testimony . was of importance for the crimina tinn of those persons. were in danger of being threat ened and intimidated by evil disposed person t, and that their testimony might be influenced' by fear of their lives, in case it went to criminate tire tnersen • tried. What protection did the Bill afford against this ? It might as well have bee.) caid in the a that' whereas, certain abu.es ousted from persons Arcing convicted by vial ; for the future they were te, ko convicted without trial." It would have tben quite es well to have s !id this 35 to hale -taken away the trial by Joey. He did not deolet that there wits much mischief ooing "en in irelarid, itrotthat'f - :r the pre ventien of co:ro:es it might he neteesery'm enact lb it rieroo ns sheio.l be oblii2ed to lie at "one - by a certain hour et the night.. With -respect, however, to the state of Ireland, he had heard several instances "hick convinced him that the conduct of the Is , lagis 7 Woes - ought to 1 :e looked after. ae well as that of the von neo, td!c, ard n7ischievons. The Honourable broth m :n then rel tied an unfair tl , at- had heppened on the esoce of a Neble Lord in Iteland,• a friend of h's. At Castleton, in Queen's Coinoy e the annual I ;i:- lateie tork pl ice, and it . was to be expected that s:me - slight rpia:rel might take place, such 'as were tomal on the occasion. Ahhote,!li nothing- unusual took place on this occasion, the Magistrates most in ittlicirtisly called in military krcc, which was or ! dered tot load with cartridge, and then to fix.thni bayonets. This done, they were made first to charge on the populace with their bayonets, and then to fire. The consequence was, that many were killed and wounded. Ibis disgraceful affair sheaved how neces sary it was to attend to the c• nduct of the Magis trates, as well as of the lower orders. In point of fact, no case had been made out to strew that the Bill was necessary; The object ol,it was to do away Grand and Petty Juries, and to deprive the people of Ireland of those sacred institutions, by which alone the law cam he properly administered. lie would appeal to these who krew the situation el Ireland, whether the effect r f the Bill would not be to exaspe ilte the people and to provoke further outrages ? He trusted that though many Member; were absent who were most interested is this - Bill, that Parliament %could attend to its nature, and not allow it to be hut - - . tied through the House at this late pet iod of the Ses sion. An instance had occurred to-day of the dispo • - eit:on of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, to • bring on important measures without assigning due reasons for them r by a Right Honourable Gentle man having, without any explanation, introduced a Bill to extend the law of extent of England to the re venue of Ireland. • • Mr. R. PEEL regretted that the HonoUrabie Gen tleman sboutd have-been put , to any diaiculty•in un derstanding the nature iit frOm any omission in the printe . d copy : Any inciniVenience arising-from these omissions, he 'conceived had been obviated by the en:lee, wlish he had given at different times ee specting the flails, and partienlarly b what he had last night said about its provisons:Butoill-inconvenienci ieing nut of these emissions, would centaiitly lave . been obvkted by Wet riog to the riot of 1807.. .The Honourable Gil:Orman cotoplained.that the Bill wasi a Mati rial alteration of the law of tke landetralsaidl that it deprived his Majery's snbjects of their trivi•-• loge of trial by Jtnv. . Tae Act provided, that incer t on ceases a stojc ant at law, to: a barris:tle. pee• side at Sessions c f the Peace, and that these wou'of competent tiy tine cimdentiiation or the . ecqiii•tal.nt persons brought before them, and accused of thstor bin:: the peace of the country. ft remained 1T the . House to decide whether the present situation of Ire land required the adoption of this-measure. Under Circunistarce_s of urgency greater deviations from the general law bad been judged nectosery by, Parliament. In !Mid, his Nlajesty's army in Ireland ce is ordered to take every seep which it might juilg4 necessary for the preservation of the peace ; and per sons belonging to the army were answerable for their acts in pinsnance of this order, only before a Court • Martial. A few, words now, its to.the possibility of iojostice being committed under the provisions of this Bid.. When the Act of 1807, (which was perfectly similar to the Bill under discussion) was first intro duced, it gave power to the•special sessions to con. deren persons to transportation ; hut, on the motion of an Honourable Batonet, (Member for Water fad) a Serjvant-at-Law, or .a Barrister, was or dered to preside at these Sessions, and it was only when then decision coincided with the opinion of rate President, that the punishment was infbcted.— , 'When their opinions did not coincide, tile sentence was suspended, and a representation made to a higher authotity. He was surprised at some of the iihjec-1 teoes of the Hoi:ottrable Gentleman. He thought the Honourable Gentleman did not know thc inten tion of the Act. He seemed to thud: that it was merely an Act for the protection of witnesses, and' asked What the protection. was? When be first - brought in the Lid, he stated, that one of the grounds for it was to afford protection to witnesses. The ob ject cf the sees to preserve peace in heland. If the Honourable Gentleman had read die Act, he "mild have seen that-it retptired no great weight of vestin:ony to hull ct puni s hment tender the Act. The Acres;as ;toothy oreservation of the Jurors. He would orri-eal to those who knew the sitteitionof stir:fitter it was not necessary to dispense with the presence of jurors, and whether it wculd not at resent endanger thein lives to appear in thejay-box ? (Hear, hear.) Another provision 'cif the Act was, hat puitiehment should immediately follow the of fence. it would be extremely inconvenient to be obliefel to go thin u.;!1 tee ordinary forms of the l a w while the country WaS in such an extraordinary state t of d:sturbance. Tne toneaas of the Hoeourable Gentleman applied well cornigh to a country in an ordinary state ; Lot it could not be denier', 'that if it was n"cesser y to the preset ealieri of tranquiltity tc order people to :::•up :'ithin donr% after it certain hour, it was eloally roessaty to follow wp this, b; causing jos:ice 'to he immedia:ely voited npin those' who distil: !nod theneace of the c It. was soith pain thrtivhe was obliged to 5 ';'" a few e11.7d; on the enbjet of a tint no-intoned by tie I lon. Gentiemen: was stint that ;he military were ordered root Most onjostifiably, and ordt red to fire upon tfol ; and that in cons quencoa nornber tif person; w. t r IA Ti been wed if the liononrahle vied . Gentleman had ptetaced his pan - at-ye by a goes. t": . _ . . . mln had dtne this ; fur he hclieved that all that he. (Mr. Homer) had stated ha this subject; was not correct. An investigation was now- going on about this matter. The result of this investigation he had not yet received ; but he understood that the military did not fire by order of the• Magistrates, but only after their arms had been wrested from some of them by the violence of the mob (Hear, hear.) —An an nual fair was hold at Castleton, where a meeting of the. Pr otestants . and Catholics was to be expected, and a serious tint was apprehended. Were the Mae's, crates in this case to 'he - blamed for taking precau ti,ais to prevent mischief, and for collecting a force which might be sittficient to quell• it in case it took place—( Heir, hear );--It was highly necessary to have had the military prepared 'on such .an occasion;. It was with much reluctance that he said any thing' at present respecting this affair, as he had not yet re ceived the report of the persons appointed to inquire into the facts. But he had this day got a letter from the Military Secretary of the Officer who conducted the inquiry, in which it was stated.that the facts were. moch_exaggerated, and also that the-Noble Lord on, is hose estate it had taken place had transmitted, very properly, a rept-estimation 'on the subject to Head quarters. He would desire the lionunrable*Gentte man not to judge of Ireland by this coutury--(•Nir. Horner here made a motion of assent.]-11 ahealon. Gentleman had expet ience in Irelane, he .w as glad oof it. The Act in 17 had produced the best effectS, and therefore experience proved that the renewal of its provisions, by the present Bid, war highly exfc dient—( Hear, hear.) Sir SAMUEL: ROMILLY rose to state shortly why be would vote against the Bill. The precedent of the Act of 1807 had no weight with him, because he then thought, and thought so still, that no such Bill ought to be passed until a Committee was ap pointed to inquire whether it were necessary. At the time the Act of 1807 was pmposed, he recollected that a Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Grattan) had stated distinctly, that a French party then exis ted in Ireland. If this proved the necessity of the Bill then, what could be said now, when we were at peace with France ? The House could not be justi fied by any individual's rising and stating that so and so was the situ ition of . I:eland, in depriving the Irish male of their rights. The facts should he* proved before a Committee ; and it ought also to be proved drat an immediate enactment was necessary; and also why the 11:11 had not been sooner brought in—( Lord cries of Hear, hear ! from the Treasury Balch.) It was not proper to desire those who wished to know the previshns of t h :s Bill to look into the Act of - 184. It was very truly said that the Bill dispensed with evidence ; and w hen the. Right Hon. Gentle man talked of the odium to which Jurors were ex-1 posed, he should have recollected that the oditim was I transferred be the Bill to the Magistrates. Mr. ROCHFORT spoke strongly in faiour of that Bill. The measure !red been loudly called Inr 'by the Nob lay and .Magiatracy of .the comity whith he hachthe honour to represent, long before it had been brought into the House. . . Mr. W. FITZGERALD expressed his satisfac tion at-hearing the Bill approved by thelioncartfale Gentleman who had just sat down. ,As to the Pa_ noilrAlc au.l Learned Gentman who had spoken betorc hirai the House. would not. be stirPeised.at his oppiaraon to the Brll, arlal oeulti.ereireecorecCieith complncocy-(pis .111)040911,10 th? Act of .1807 - Fur Isis own past, he anticipated that the course of -Patna: cot would be the same nos , - as it has been then.. as . the cas s es were quite similar.: Th e sin oion of Ireland was a matter of perfect notorious. Buz whatavas the. I - louse to t! , iiik of the • Honourable :Ilti Learned Gentleman (SiraSarmiel Romilly) who took the tes timony of one Member de:ivered in that Hoase te specting a French party in Ireland, as suffitient ground fer tire proceeding of 1807, and writ) now re jected the •concorring testimony of almost every Member who spoke on the subject, saying that the House was not authorized to pass the Bill unless evidence was taken before a Committee—( Wear.) — He would argue that the h 'endow of the Act of 1807 was not to put down a French party, but to put an end to nightly outrages and urrders. It was ad mitted that the situation of Ireland in 1807 was very nearly the same with that in which it now was: and to state that the object of the act of 1807 had been to put down a French party (speaking without im pertinence to the Honourable and Learned Gentle. man) was most extraordinary. From what the House had already heard, the necessity of the Bill was proved. What had been said about odium bring tr snsferred from Jurors to the Magistrates by the Bill, was best answered by the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rochfort) who had stated that the Bill was loudly called for long ago by the Nobility and Ma gistracy. When the lionour.able Gentleman (Mr. Horeer) complained that tire Bill was introduced without due notice, and that Irish Members were taken by surprise, it was some satisfaction that not one Irish.Ms niber had expressed any Lira surprise at the introduction of the Bill as the Honourable Gentleman. In fact-, they telt no surprise. They knew it was mersaaiy. And there never was an imp station le a , founded in fact, than to say they ware taken try surprise. As to what had been said about his having this day brought in an important Bill without assigning any reason why it should he passed. the Honourable Gentleman ought to recoll?ct, that he'brought in the Bill he explained its na ture, :rid if any 14-nonrable Member had desired him to assign reacoi.s for it, he would have done so. As to what was said ahorit the Bill depriving the pen. ple of the protection of Jaries, the Honourable and L'arred Gentleman should know that the object of the Bill was to rote( t the people of Ireland, and not to t 'lie from toem any protection. Although the H. namable Gentleman had constitnied himself the advocate for Leland, no Irish Member had opposed the 1141. Mr: 119RNEP. rte to order. The Right Gentleman had i.n right to make any distinction in that House between the 'Members for Ireland and those t , lr any part of the'kingelom. Mr. FITZOERA I,D did n.t think that he teas out of mkt. If 1;e had been disorderly, be would have bet) loy the Chair. He concluded by rn.iiiitainii;g the necebbity of passing the 13111 without &lay. • Mr.: BE RCROM RIE was against the The Geittiern.m. opposite ca:letl ti inn the on his own vile authority. Aol I of tf.e silo:160r, tf Ireland, he dent:•) , - flan to him (Mr. PA:e11) whether :tyinvetty.itioo wit- i fli g ht :o. C itic Imo tlic of this cu.e?—(llcar, /,car.) soct is would have bcn if the lioronrable C,:7ntl , '- to the flo:ofet.; that any such notoriety as that mentioned by the Right Hon. Gentleman waited! 'He insisttd that the Bill was much too severe to produce any effect ; and he was convinced that no Lotit Lieutenant could be found to act under its provisions. It was even in capable of being materially altered in the Committer.• It had been admitted that they were not political, but local disturbances which this Bill was intended to re medy ; and yet its extraordinary powers would place •whole provnces of Ireland at the discretion and ca price of Inc tl Magistrates. How would it 'sound to the people of England, if it were proposed to them to pass the next three years without the benefit bf Trial by Jury ? But this Bill went even farther than such a proposition ; for it assumed the shape of a perma nent law, and left no prospect of abolition. He would therefore entreat the House not to pass judgment on' the Bill, unless convinced that it was calcubaed, fully and effectually, to remedy the defects complained ot. Mr. PEELI: and Mr. ABERCROMBIE briefly explained. Sir H. PARNELL bad the same objections to the .Bill as he had formerly expressed, and whicli were fonnded on its departing from the common course of the Trial by Jury. • 'General HARCOURT was decidedly in favour: ofThe measure. The Magistrates, whose doty . wiiiiltt] compel them to act under the Bill, would be placed' in a situation of odium and disdain ; • but they had only' to put themselves under the ptotectiOn of thel House, ci.uld not fail to appreciate their ex ertions. • ' • • Colonel BAGWELL would put the questio6 to the feelings ot the head and heart (*every -Member.' in the House, whether such a measure stare mitvalisa: lately necessary, when it was proved ihat nightly ode:' predators go abroad, depriving the hiyal inlajliitant e s of arms ; assembling again with these arms in the . ir l i hands ; threatening them with destruction unless they., complied with their lawless views; and diten putting their atrocious threats into execution.. lie.wisui.d go farther, fearless of the result, than merely saliag,that, this measure was absolutely necessary ; hc would say that it is not sufficient to remedy the evil.; and that those who have taken up the cudgels in some diitricts of Ireland ought to be put down by martial law. When it was recollected that a worthy Magistrate who had lent his aid in suppressing such disturbances, had been murdered at his own door, and that threats of the most dreadful i4escription were held out to wit nesses and Juries, who could doubt that the state of ' the country was sufficient to authorise the measure ? Mr. CROKER WAS sprite stare that the Govern ment of Ireland would have been wanting ill its pm: tection to the people of that country, it it had not adopted a measure of this kind, at a time when a very large portion of Ireland was in :1 state of disturbance. The former Bill of 1807, acted as a complete preven • uve, and- never was found necessary to be enforced at all. Colonel LERESFORD considered this measure as indispensible to protect the loyal and sober-minded in habitants of that country, against the turbulent and' the bad. .Sir G. HILL asserted that the rigorous execution of-this law in ISO: kept rebellit.n out of the Counties . of Tyrone and Tipperary. The (heal of the opera : tion.of this law, he believed, would have the.efft•ct I preyenting those disturbances that now tinhaf•ptly pre. inlielAnd. _ Mr. D. BROWN said, the causes of the distittb . - ances in Ireland laid deeper than had yet been . de scribed. He trusted the Rtht Honourable Gen/le - - man would, in the early part of nest session, - bring forward some permanent measure on this sukject ; he trusted a plan would he proposed for establishing a police in Ireland; as, at present, whatevtr Gentle men mtlit think or say,*there WAS no efficient Police existing in that country. M. J. P. GRANT did not consider the, present measure as calculated to put a period to the evils c.,ln pbaired of : and with that (pinion strongly. impressed' on his mind, he could ro.t rive his assent to the me:.- sure, especially when he comidered that one of its pro visions went to suspend that great palyium of our liberriet—the trial by jury. Mr. CUURTNEY approved the measure. He did not think any one could he proposed to remedy the evil, which departed less from the Constitution than this did. The Bill was then read a 2d time, and committed for to-morrow. IIA1.F•P:1Y CF SUBALTERNS. General GASCOIGNE, alluding to the rejection of his amendment on Monday evening, said he wish ed now to adopt another course, by moving an Ad dress to the Prince Repent in behalf of that class of men whose merits were so generally acknowledged as to need no observation. He would repeat, that the half-pay of the Ensign did not give him the means of subsistence superior to that of a day-labourer. He was aware that it was not possible for the H o use and the Country to do all that in their liberality they might wish to do ; but the little that was asked for on thiS occasion was so trivial, when comnared with the ge neral expenses of the nation, as to b a mattir 44 per fect insignificance, and ought not to be put igcollipe tition by any means with the great end it was intend ed to answer. When it was considered that men were encouraged to enter the army at an early pefitid of life, and under the idea that the profession they had assumed would be permanently advantageous, their case must now be admitted to be one of peculiar hard ship. The loss of the advantage of being with their corps, and forfeiting the kind protection of their su perior °Ricers, was almost as great as depriving chil dren of their parenti; as no men were so comforta ble as these officers when embodied with thew regi ments, where every attention was paid to preyent them fr. -, m becoming involved; and now that they were thrown suddenly upon the world, they had a greater claim on the State. The Honoura ble Gentleman then repeated all his former re marks res;•ecting the peculiar situation in which the peace would place the- Lieutenant as was well as the Ensign, and denied that the proposed addition Would make the pay of the Lieutenant dis:m Tomo nate to that of the Captain, :et 'the difference b rt t‘een them ‘vould he half-a-ezoWn, tlae pay of the Imes being is. and the loimer 4s. (id. On the whol e , th e lion. Gentleman was of opinion, that limy or never w a s the time to o,hipt this intereeting question, which all the General Olikets were anxious to sce effectcd. It the Noble Lord knew now general was the feel:ng in Ixhalt ol the Subaltern Officers, he was sure that• he would with pleasure render his iwist.tl,ce in amp. notating their condition. The Hon. Gentlettlaa :concluded with moving—" That an humble Addrev. be presented to his Royal Highness the Prince Re gent, praying that he will be graciously pleased to take into his cons;deration the situation of the Ea. signs and Lieutenants of the army, and to direct that the half-pay of each Lieetenant be advanced to i-s. GO. and of each Ensign to 3s. Gd. Sir EV R C COOTE seconded the motion.. No class of men cles-o-ved or required aoentiou more than the subalterns of the army ; and he relied on the confi dence and liberality of the House for giving comple!._ support to a measure so just, beneficial, and satisfac tory to the army at large. The SPE:\ KER. observed, that he v.-as not awaro of its bring mu +1 to specify any peculiar extent of li berality for the Crown ; it would therefore be judicioro to alter the motion 11 ()witting the amount of the sums, And merely to make the prayo: oldie petitiea relalc to an undefined increase cfpay. General G ASCOYN E thanked the Right Horny:- ablelGentlenian for his suggestion, aio: altered terms of the miltion. - • Lord PALME-RSTON could not thilk that it would he the duty of Government to take arranoe ments of this - sort. hot) consideration piecemeal ; t. ;he bear in mind the scale of the different ranks, -and what troporoon the carne would bear tfa the scale of the naval service. Ger.tlemen connected with the army inight-verynaturally be exp;ered to fer-i -fortheopeculiarart-erests of- their branch of the'ser yice but otbeiGentJemen might-take a d.ill•erent vie -as ;of, the subject * nd bsrpclined to thlaksthat the 1):;..,,;e;- ;--rori.4.:-. of tAlicers deserv,:d an incroase ; fitly rtoeht•he of opinion that those who a ere yokinwonld have cr- Iportonitirs of turning to foil- pursuits, which t could not who hael se; ved a I.l't ,0137-rtion of &tit life; sr) . that the measur e might Lord to corner-Ocoee% nice.: serious Iran were now•i4pOrcili-oileiE .• He was read.: to admit that the 'Ray of the Vosion was not sofrc;er:t to support the sititat on of a Gertlerni:n ; the po-- posal of the:Woof:l able Giowral would got fiectuaiiy to destroy the propcirtion'of ranks. He trusted th e Horace '„0„la be of opinion, that it would be better to leave the scale on the footing upon which it now stood, than to adopt a comparative scale, which can not he just towards all rank-. Str.W. S PEW ART said a few words in favour of the Address. Sir J. S. YORKE said the pay of the Of f icers in question, was equivalent to that et Officers of higher comparative rank in the Navy, and it should be re collected that there were many Officers in this service (Midshipmen) who, after six, seven, or eight years' service, would not receive any half-pay at all. The .CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the House should recollect that they were now called on not to he liberal with their own money, but with that of the pultlic. IsLuWithstanding what had been ....rid by the Honourable General,' as to the tri vial amount of this difference of pay, he had reason to think that it would be fotind to he nearly double what had been mentioned.- •The'L;entenent in the navy was considerably superior 'in point of rank t-s the' Lieutenant in the army ; 1e ranked equal to a C.ti,tain and' the cOofaunding.or equalising of rank would he destructive of discipline. • The Right Hon. Gentleman'took a view of tlie Comp irative scale of pay in each service, and - contended that it would he 'tOtally inverted if the proposition were adopted ; for .any' attempt to improve the 'Vituation of a particular class, without referenie to the who/e, would he pro. ductive ot n 'thing (nit dlsComent, and diSsatistaction in the service at large. • 'Mr. GORDON was in favour of the increase. It was p,:cwi ung:acious ih Ministeß who had jest prevailed on the Committee to ;;riint 810,000 for the avowed purposiof placing thirty-gee commissions at the entire dispoial ot the Cianmander in Chief, coop? phse the triyial addnion n•iw suggested. But the conduct of Mihisiers WAS :t confusion of ccorAnny and prodigality ;• and in this new tit of economy, when they reminded the House that:they - were not voting their own mOrrity, they had taken 41.0,01,0 from the Civil List, to, ,be exeenAd in rclicolons gesvgasvit f e stivities. Even that very night they had been cahed upon to vote El 00,0n0 to the Clergy, and hesitated. at voting a few thousands for the comfort of the En. sign and Lieutenant. He thought the rePpie of London would not mech rejoice, it they conceived the money so expended might have been much better employed in protecting those who had bravely fin:gilt in defence of every thing that was dear to them. —(Hear, hear!) Lord CAST LEREAGH was reacty to admit, that to oppose the Address was an extremely irksome part to take ; but there was no doubt that if the pro. position were successful, many other applications would follow from individuals, who would conceive they had equal claims. But however painful the sub ject might he for Parliament to discuss, they could only deal with it on the average, or in relation to all the other classes oldie service, as the question would be how far the liberality of Parliament could be pushed towards one class without receiving corres ponding claims from others. The Noble Lord re verted to the avidity with which the ranks of the army had been filled, as a proof that it had not been a pulley, speakinggenerally, to throw commissions into the hands of those w ho had no means of support but their pay ; and he concluded with intreating the House not to suffer their feelings to carry them be yond what their duty would justify. General GASCOYNE contended that the topic was not a qte•stion of feeling, but of justice ; the in caredastehe was demanded by th e s it uat i on o f t h e O f fi cer n du'pmp or tion ate price which provisions be.ir to his pay. Lord PA I.MERSIONL, in explanation, stared the proposed arrangement was not to be confined to Offic , is now retiring on halt-pay, but was to extend to all those who had been pot upon hail-pay during the war. Sir W. STUART, the CitAxcF.J.to,: of t!ie FAcim- QuEit, and Lord cASTI.F.IIIAGH at vi tally explained. Una divis on, the numbers were its f4inow :—For ►he Motion, 28—Agaitut it, 32—Majority 4. l'ltkl'AliAllONs IN TIIE 1..1111,,„ X. tic gallery was open, aftor tor d;irt,i n, Mr. TILI(NEY was Asklng a tiuvatiou of Ow Chancellor 1)1 tie Exchequer, resittcle.lg the %yip lc exvence of the , c works. . The CHANCF.I.I.OR ot the EXCHEQUER teplied, that the dill.tei:t Office' s ot the 11011,.; lit their anxiety to comply With the orJer House, had immedi ady made their returns of what ~~ ~" • &