Star. — London, England, 1831-04-20 00:00:00

~'~ R . HOUSE OF COMMONS, An 19. The Gallery was not opened till font o'clock, owing to there being a ballot for the Coleraine Fitt t!on Committee; but though there went the requisite number of members present, no ballot took place. Lord A LTHORP presented the Northamptonshire Reform petition. Mr. CARTWRIGHT did not consider that the petition repre. I seated the opinions of the majority of the freeholders.—Petition ovdered to be printed. A desultory conversation took place as trithe interruption at, and the character of the meeting, in which the county Members. Mr. 0. Sumo and Sir G. Roaruswe took part.—Petition ordered to be printed. Lord A LTHORP then presented peddons from Perth and Towcester in favour of Reform. Mr. DUNCOVI BE presented petitions against it from Leeds, Donee ter, Bradford and l'arnstaple. Lord 31ORPETH admitted, that some most respectable name, were att whed to the petition—but those from Barnsky and Bradford. he was instructed, had not resulted from public meetings. Mr. OUNCOM BE spoke to the great respectability of the peti tioners. Mr. SYK ES understood that the petitions did not represent one twentieth pa•t of the number, wealth or respectability, of those places, and that the petitions proceeded from what might truly be called the oligarchy of those places. Petitions ordered to be printed.. Mr. LYTTLETON presented the Staffordshire County Petition. It was signed by four thousand Freeholders, amongst whom were 11 Peers, the Illarquisses of Stafford, Cleveland, &c. There would base been more had time allowed. Mr. LYTTLETON presented a petition from Bursley against the new Beer-shops. ILETORINI BILL.-ADJOURNID DEBATE. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the resumption of the adjourned debate on the Reform Bill. Mr. BULNIER said he considered the question of reform, or no Re form, had been decided ages ago, therefore he had been surprised at the speechl of the Member for Newark. The present measure, however, was not calculated to pass the House, nor pacify the country. How ever, those who opposed, or those who supported the Bill, they did it with the view of preventing revolution. But what was the state of the Press ? he would refer to that part of the press, of which the Hon mere. ber for Preston might know something ; but of which he apprehended, the members knew little. He then quoted " the poor man's friend," which did not wish the 13111 to pass, because then there must be revo lution. lie supported the Bill so calculated to prevent revolution; he supported the Bill because some reform was necessary ; because it was advisable to meet the wishes and wants of the people; and because he thought this measure the bast that could he devised. Mr. CAMPBELL said the speeches which they heard, showed the necessity of Reform ; for Members now spoke of their pa. trons, and the means by which some members got into that house, namely, on nomination, as a matter of coune. He wu not disposed to find fault with the train of address that the honourable member who last spoke had adopted, farther than to hope that the present measure ;night pass, if it were for no other purpose than to prevent honourable members of that house talking of the noble lord who had sent them there—language which had become almost as common in that house as the expression of his constituents, and which would actually have hor. ror-struck any hon. member in that house in antient times. It was to be hoped the time would speedily arrive when such expressions could no longer be heard of. His principal object, however, was to address a few observations to the motion that had been made by the hon. and gal. lain officer onthe other side of the house. That motion was that the members returned for England remain, they being 513. For such a re solution he was totally at a loss to discover any principle. What was there so magical or so sacred in the number 13 ? Lord Coke had said there was something singular in the number 12—there were twelve tribes of Egypt--twelve signs of the zodiac -twelve disciples —twelve apostle—twelve months in the year—and twelve judes of Ragland ;—(much laughter)—but what there was in 513 he had yet to fi nd out. Again, with respect to the number 50 for Scotland, ' why th it number was to remain inviolate he had no means of know ing. On the contrary, in going back to the original resolutions be tween the commissioners fur England and the commissioners for Scot land, to adjost the Union, be found it was clearly understood by the commissioners for Scotland, and he believed by the commissioners for England, that the number might and should be varied. The original proposition was on the part of the commissioners for England, that Scotland should send thirty-eight representatives, but that number was afterwards varied to forty-five. The Scotch certainly did not in sist on having more, but they looked forward to the British parliament for leave to have the number increased. Could it be imagined that whatever change' might take place with respect to the wealth and in crease of population of Scotland, that the number of forty-five should remain unvaried for ever ? Should it happen that any time there should be a larger population, and a greater amount of wealth in Scot land than in the southern part of Britain, could it be said then that England should send five hundred and thirteen members, and Scotland only 46. There was absurdity on the face of the proposition. How hap pened it that England returned 513 members, and Scotland and Ireland return:also many less ? It arose from an absolute abuse of the pre fr eof the Crown. (hear.) It arose not from the zepresentatives of large counties and populous places, but from an indisputable abuse of the Crown in individuals being vested wish the power of sending members tothat house. This was directly repugnant to the constitu tion of England, that constitution required that the representatives of the people in parliament should be returned by the people, and in no other way. The principle of returning the members to Parliament was laid down so long ago as the time of Edward the First—he laid it down in the summonses which he issued, and he trusted that the time was at hand when that principle would be recognised 'pin, and acted upon in its largest acceptation. That was the principle of the Bill—it declared that the representation ought to be that of the people. It pro flossed to be such, and it was not representation if it were not such.— The old writs led to the belief that the principle of universal suffrage was admitted ; but the application of that principle would now lead to universal ruin and confusion. The disfranchisementa in schedule A. were most correct—in the representation there could be nothing like vested interests. • What rights could Old Sarum have when all its in. habitants were gone ? He should oppose the amendment. Mr. VANE opposed the motion, and supported the amendment. The bill was wild, and would be most destructive. Three years ago the noble Paymaster of the Forces said that the voice of the people did not call for a reform : the demand did not recur till the late French revolu tion extended the epidemic to this country. There were persons who held that reform would lead to reduction of taxes and to cheap govern ment—but those who countenanced such sentiments deluded the people, except they were prepared to support the breach of national faith. The dividends must be paid, therefore taxes must be enforced ; and if that were not done, there would be an end to church and state. The bill excluded the mass of the people, but those who would be returned under it would not be very likely to sustain the national faith. That was a decided argument with him as to the bill. It was without prin. ciple, and he viewed it as an insult to the united people. He envied not that man his heart who conceived this bill, be he who he might— (Hear, hear, and much laughter.) He repeated, he envied not such a man his heart. He should support the amendment, to preserve the number of the house. Mr. WILBRAHAM said he bad always been friendly to the prin. ciple of reform, and ever since he entered public life thought the tor rupt manner ha which some seats were filled ought to be corrected.— What be had seen in that house—after the cloak that had been thrown over corruption—his opinions became strengthened. After the East Retford 'Stir, he was persuaded that nothing but a measure of general reform would meet the necessity of the case. Nothing short of that general reform would meet the wants and wishes of the people ; nothing less would pay off the debt contracted with the people. He de. stied that there was any thing revolutionary in this measure. If there were, then were the unions of Scotland and Ireland, which intro duced so many " foreigners " into that house—and the measure disfranchising the forty shilling freeholders of Ireland—most revo lutionary proceedings. (Hear, hear.) But in truth it was nothing of the kind. He denied that there was any revolutionary mirk in the country ; but if there were was it likely to be checked by the re jection of this bill ? Would not its adoption, on the contrary, be calculated to counteract that spirit, and increase the affections of the lapople tot the institutions of the country ? Admitting that the popu r rights were largely extended, why should they suppose that the people would be bland to their own interests ? And by the change, would they not get into that house for one hundred and sixty drones, one hundred and fifteen working bees P That was his impression. If the plan were calculated to be beneficial to parts of the people, was it not also calculated to promote the interests of the whole people. He thought it was. They had heard a good deal from gentlemen, that they would not object to moderate reform ; but he had heard nothing front arty of them what they meant by moderate reform What was the re form, moderate or otherwise, which they would support? (Hear, hear.) Would they approve the disfranchisement of one rotten borough ? That was the test by which be would try those who called themselves moderate reformers ; for had they supported the correction of any abuses in any of the rotten boroughs that had been brought before the house ? He considered representation to be the hinge on which the public wel fare turned—that this Bill would introduce requisite amendments into the system of representation, therefore the Bill bad his cordial sup port. (Hear.) The Isom. Mr. C. DOI IO LAS was of opinion that the Bill was not desirable in its details. Mr. HAWKINS said, that he was determined to oppose to the tit. most of his abilities every motion that would tend to frustrate the great measure of reforfia. He could not help remarking that those who pro fessedly opposed the bill always admitted that sonic change was neces any ; but it so happened that just at the present time they discovered that this was not the proper time; they preferred to anticipate any change at some distance (Hear, hear, from the ministerial benches.) The ilOl3. member scouted the idea of the importance that was pretended to be attached to what was called the vested rights in the boroughs, he thought that there was precedent for all the alteration that was contem plated by the bill. The very fact of the present family being placed on the throne of England was a sufficient precedent for disfranchising the gemination boroughs, u it proved that from time to time such altera. •'I ~, i' l;~ ~i IT , , f` ~, . ; ~, ~, -~~~. !up tins had been adopted by our ancestors 'se they considered necessary. The supporters of the bill asked for nothing but what was practicable in experience. Now that the da i i ) l a y tt izrnals were admitted to be the ar bitrators between contending and that the schoolmaster was considered the greatest to political error, it was too much for us to be told thus of window of our once tors.—(Hear, bear.) The bon. member concleded a long and energetic speech by declaring himself, in most unqualified terms, convinced of the justness and necessity of the bill, and his determination to support it even at the expense of his own power. The boa. member was loudly sheered when he sat down. Sir G. WARR ENDER supported the amendment of General Gas eoyne. He could not support a measure to enlarge the representation of Scotland at the expense of spoliation of England. He was opposed to the ministerial measure, opposed to disfranchisement, but his oppo sition would ever be open I'M manly, and he would never seek by any oblique motion to obtain the overthrow of the Bill. (Cheers.) He could not consent to Scotland being for ever limited to a number of re presentatives, which exceeded Cornwall by only one member. Her towns had already vastly increased in population since the Union ; they were now increasing in a ratio greater than ever. Her revenues which at the time of the Union was only 120.0001. had undergone an equal augmentation. Under these circumstances, he thought that the amend ment did not do justice to Scotland ; he should oppose it, and in so doing he felt that he discharged his duty. Mr. WYNN said, that before they resolved on a change of Con. stitution they should consider, not what might be the partial defects of the Constitution they now possessed, but its general operation and result. Let them compare the condition of this country with the rest of Europe, and see whether any nation had enjoyed for a century and a half so much of internal tranquillity, of individual and public li berty. He did not deny that there was excitement in the country, but he had seen similar excitement before, and had always found It to dis appear in the long run, before the confidence inspired by that Hou4. He proceeded to say, that he regretted that the population should have been taken as the sole principle which regulated either the withdraw ing or the giantit.g of the elective franchise. He regretted especially that it should rest on a census taken ten years since, when they were to have, within a few weeks, another census much more accurate. If population was the principle, it should at least be adhered to. They should not give a double representation to the name constituency, as in the case of Glamorganshire, when compared to other counties in Wales. He could cite many other instances where the representation was out of proportion to the population. Hs thought that besides the total number of inhabitants which a borough might contain, thecizi her of voters which it would obtain under the present measure, . be considered. (Hear.) He denied that corruption was confined to the lowest crders. If he looked to Aylesbury and Retford, be found the corruption to exist among the householders, among those on whom the present measure conferred the franchise..—;Hear, hear.) — As to the detail. of the Bill, he objected especially to the mode of re gistration. which would render it extremely difficult to impugn the title of any candidate to the franchise. The leaseholder was not to be an elector until two years after the renewal of his lease. Under the pre sent duration of leases, he would be deprived of his vote for six years out of twenty-seven. He could not join in the general outcry against the close boroughs. He observed in general more talent among their representatives than among the county members. The present Bill would exclude all those whose claims rested on power of reflection, experience, and industry, but who were wanting in that brilliancy of eloquence which fascinated the multitude. If the number of close ho. roughs was so large, the elective franchise extended to the surrounding districts would be as efficacious, though a much less harsh remedy, than disfranchisement. With respect to the amendment of the Gallant General, he considered the proposed diminution in the English mem bets contrary to the Act of Union. Ireland bad certainly greatly in creased in population, wealth, and intelligence ; but England had increased also. The c hanges in the proportion of members would be endless, If that proportion was made to depend on a nice calculation of the amount of wealth and population. A new manufacturing place sprang up each year in one of the three kingdom, and the ba6nce would be as often destroyed. lie should support the amendment. Sir G. CLERK said he should support the resolution, as assuring to Scotland that increase in the number of representatives which she de. sired, and the prospect of which made her receive with favour the mi• nisterial measure. He apprehended that if England was reduced in her present number of representatives, the English members, when the Scotch Bill came to be considered, would turn round upon them, and call upon Scotland for a proportionate reduction. Glasgow and the other populous towns would be allowed to be represented only at the expense of the franchise of the less considerable places. An honourable member had declared that he should vote against the resolution, adding, in the same breath, that he was opposed to the disfranchieement of the English boroughs. Now, to mere that was virtually to support the resolution (hear). He would be very willing to give a greater number of representatives to Scotland, but he could see no reason for redwing the number of members for England, and should therefore vote for the motion of the gallant general. Sir JOHN MALCOLM thought that if the nomination bong* afforded the means for men who had served their country ahead es. tering that house on their return home, they should not be tabs away till other aims were supplied. He had heard in the come et as dis cussion of counties and towns in England, and Scotland, and had; but he had never heard any mention of the countries over white, land ruled abroad. He never suffered so much in his life as dudes discussion, when be baud himself described as a piece of corruption. 1 the representation could be improved, it ought to be done; but be did not think the representation of England should be diminished. While England remained the same, he thought the Scotch reprmentadon should be inereited, though he must admit that Sootchmen often took the liberty of billetting themselves on England. And he mast say, that be never knew an English or Irish gentleman represent a Scot& county or borough. As he theught the members for England should not be diminished, be should vote for the motional the gallant impend with the honest conviction of his heart. Sir R. WILSON said he considered the bill s proof of the integrity of Ministers in the redemption of their pledges ; but as the noble lord opened the measure he felt insuperable objections to the diminution of the English members. He was sent to the house the advocate, not only of a free, but of a full, representation of the people of England; and he could not support a measure that went to decimate the represen. tation of the people of England. (Hear, hear.) As he did not wish to appear either to oppose a ministry with whose general principles he aoreed, nor to oppose a bill of reform , he determined on heating the measure opened, to relinquish his seat, and mentioned his intention to the supporters of the bill that night, and was informed it was rather a suggestion than an essential part of the bill. He had sines learned from the Gallant General, that his motion was not intended as hostile to the bill, and on that understanding promised it his support. (Hear.) The noble lord who introduced the bill said sign, if the house were averse from the reduction of the number of mem be rs, ministers would not consider it an essential part of the bill, and this was *muds repeated by the Noble Chancellor of the Exc heq uer. With - gnat surprise, therefore, he heard last night from the noble Chancellor of the Rxchequer, that the proposition for the diminution 0 the members of the house was a vital principle of the bill, and that those who opposed it were the enemies otrefotm. (Hear.) He was a steady reformer, but not a reformer who could put en and put off his principles as he could a pair of shoes. (Hear.) He could not change his "igloos, pardeu larly on this question, because—and be wished he could obliterate the fact from his memory—to barter his opinions would be to yield to the most sordid motives. (Hear.) What then was he to do when Ministers had set the fortune of the bin on a die they ought never to have thrown. He would resign his seat to his constituents if they were dissatisfied with the vote he should give; but he would retire into private life with the conscience of an honest man. (Hear.) Mr. STANLEY said, the Gallant General had seen a change of language in ministers, which, however it might have been discovered by an enemy, could scarcely have been discerned by a Mend. He boasted of his having been a reformer, but he was doing the utmost in his power to defeat the Bill. The hon. and gallant member said be was given to understand that this question was not an essential part of the minim and after that confidential communication, he bad another confidential communication with the gallant Gene ral opposite, who came forward with a measure to defeat the measure. The conclave was held to defeat the Bill agreed upon the present measure as the most likely to collect all stray votes against it. Front the time the gallant General's notice of motion appeared in the order.book, it underwent bur modifications, for the purpose of effectually defeating the The Bill was received by the country with universal approbation, be amuse it extended the constituency. (Hear, hear.) If this resolution I was carried, and theplembers of the House were to remain the same, Neither Scotland nor Ireland could receive any addition of members. — He was sorry to hear the Noble Lor.l last night say, that the opponents of the Bill wete determined not to give more Members to Catholic Ire land. (Hear, hear.) He did not attach much importance to the pro- portion of Members from England, Ireland, and Scotland ; but as long as places deserving representation were found unrepresented, he wouM give them naives, whether in England, Scotland, or Ireland.-e (Hear, hear. He was also astonished at the objection raised_V MS right honourable friend the member foe Montgomeryshire (Mr. WykOt He objected to making population the basis of representation. The test of population was not the only one ; but it had its value. Ms right honourable friend objected to the disfranchisement of the roam boroughs, and said they were to bring men et dot into the House. He could not =Zie argument, for he then* m inn : arth of reeeleci tall o s hoofnu t .n w m o n W oliolt d t,godr fi lmeeld nd us: yes. t l i ken hd w i a mb t y l u us tog i t a h t tera h cce e: a h p had n a td t th a preun ie H e t r ugh ehad a tatt leteite P : at the county tention of availing himself of the offer, but he was confident, if his right hon. friend pereeverld le opposition to the bill, his constituents NOM Ind • member to represent their sentiments in that house.—(Chesessed laughter.), It was said the members for rotten boroughs did all the lea. siness of the house. He appealed to the house whether the business was not done by the county members. There was a ng ... 64 i e . deeTise4bol:outelghsy, tha t n was as bad proposed no "Un t t ldisf inem rant r ls i e n i d e vefew England, egmedisa were to be purchased by the first man that would pay the price.—(Hear.) The rotten boroughs gave no weight to Ragland, they might be sold to Ire• land or Scods4 as well as to RogiantL—( Hear, hear.) It was „ '.a.. clear to every man who attended to this debstos that ele the Imo' of the question hung the fate of the bill; and those who sappiest the Gallant Generala motion were doing all in t i likerlit Ea. feat the fondly excited hopes of the people of illat thet should have a representation of their wants, their and tisk feelings.—(Hear, bear.) Mr. WYNN expiated. Ages two-and-thirty yaws' hidelelowdew to his constituents, he should not be afraid to meet his her. Mei ea the hustings.—( Hear. bear.) Sir G. MURRAY said the object of the bill was Muddier aweless ass popularmehe was afraid It would reedit thew men subject to the lollamos s i s fArw berugess. The seeds et th e measure were emu Mdo bey., and Mime, whoa transferred on the aim aide, disweeltei *pod to prime the nalsogy with the fruit, how ever unripe and uMtheineme. They Illatiardlp sealed in the Cabi net when they lose& leeward a sweepkg maw* et 'dorm that was to agitate all pains of the kingdom. The bill mai ei g =u in th e Ire p re sentation et Scotland , that was *jested to by the of that country. He had a letter Arm re Methiseir of the zzert, Scotland, proposing that the climb thumb' be lemma by two members in the House of Peers, and four in the Ham et Commons. (Hear, hear, hear.) He mentioned this merely to show how wild peo. pie's imaginations ran in consequence of the sweeping changes pro posed by the bill. It was perfectly open to those who were not op posed to the principle of the Bill, to support the motion of his Gal lant Friend, which he should do from opposition to the principle of the bill. Mr. BERNAL thought it was inconsistent to argue that corruption should not be allowed, and yet that rotten boroughs should be con. tinued. Was it supposed such seats were given for nothing? was it not notorious that they were paid for by an annual payment, or by a gross sum ? (Hear, hear.) The Reform might be injurious to colonial interests ; but he sat in that House, not as the representative of Ja maica, but of the people of England. (Hear, hear.) He thought the present resolution was intended to be hostile to the Bill, and to prevent five members being added to Ireland, and live to Scotland. (Cries of No, no, from the Opposition.) He believed the secret intention of the resolution was to throw out the Bill. (Hear.) Sir JOHN hl ALCOLM said be was given his mat in that house, leaving him as free as air. (Hear, hear.) Mr. NORTH said, the bill, in its present shape, aliened that the former bill was the result of haste; it had about it all the marks of precipitancy ; but even in its amended shape, there was no correction of the great original vice, he meant the uniformity In the elective fran chise, which it went to establish. It was the happy variety of rights that had hitherto readeral our representation so inestimable; that merit was to be destroyed by the present bill. It bad been said (by Mr. Ferguson) on the former evening, that the influence of the Crown had been supplanted by what he termed botoughmongeeing influence, and that this bill would destroy that influence. if so, what was there to protect the Crown. the peerage, and the church, asiest the tide of popular influence ? Then there would be nothing left to resist the tide of republican sentiments and influence; and what would remain to prevent them from sweeping away monarchy and the peerage as useless encumbrances. as so much rubbish ? (Cheers from the Opposition Benches.) The maw* regarding Ireland would be most pre judicial. The Catholic emancipation was deemed a healing mea sure ; and the forty-shilling freeholders were disfranchised, and the representations in corporations secured, avowedly as the means of enabling the Protestants to haves a countervailing influence against the increased force of the Catholics. This measure would de stroy that security, by depriving the corporations of that peculiar and protecting merit. Ireland, it had been stated, wanted repose : was this the way to secure it ? Had Ireland asked for this measure ? No ; but the ministers having silenced an opponent agitator, now became agitators themselves. Only one had called for reform, and he now stood at the bar of justice of his country. Then, why distress and harass the country with this measure But they were to agree to the measure, and they were told in a tone of command that they must agree to the measure, and not throw the apple of discord into the country. Why, they who gave this measure threw amongst them the apple of discord. What had the member for Waterford said, when compelled to abandon the agitation of the repeal of the Union, in that house, as an impracticable measure? Why, that he would wait until he got a reformed parliament. ( Loud cheering.)— That hen. member's reasoning here was correct enough ; for, and let them not hide the fact from themselves , with a reformed P arliament that hen. member would nominate to nineteen or twenty places in Ire land. (Hear.) He would have the 101. votas—men unfit to exercise the elective franchise. (No, no.) He was well acquainted with the class, and he avowed such to be the fact. The protection from the cor porations in Ireland would be gone. The voters to whom he alluded were already considerably alienated in their affections towards Ragland; they had long been operated upon by the honourable member for Water. Std; (Hear.) they were, in fact, familiar with the worst councils and kip of agitation. If, therefore, he had no other mason for the course he amid pursue, he would support the amendment of the honour able amber for Liverpool, on the ground that by retaining the peen& umber, in the English representation, there would be pre- Mod t at ISlNOilth to mare the Protestant interests of 'lreland mist the keesesod Catholic influence of that country. (Cheers.) Mr. O'CONNELL declared that the speech which had just been uttered was a tines of weak and gross misrepresentations; but it was a Cdiwell eakeletel le swore the ready cheer of particular quarters. ensnawis beim them was one that sought to get rid for ever of the deriding Messes of borough sontroul. He had hoped that the time was agwwee by for anseepting to defeat that measure by weak declamation and I afedsel gssoloalation. But no, it was to be attacked by the boo. =mbar f i z ive la, who origina ll y came into the home Mash th e memo rotten borough; and that montbse bed them bow wall be the sort et Ma me that Wlnt festered Ida. Not mean with Inland—met easiest with en. daseouring to revive religions aebeesidre—that hommember must mis represent him (Mr. O'Connell). He bad raver said that with a aimed Pediment ha would carry the repeal of the Union (Ilea4100.) Whet be had asserted was give him a reformed Parliament, sal he &spoked as of getting justice for Ireland. - (Hear. bear, wed di ; ob.) That was what he had asserted ; and that was what he belkwed.-- (Hear.)—The bill was acceptable to Ireland ; it bad already dens My le allay animosities.—{Hear )—That was the fact. Those who meekesd it could not have read the Irish papers, could not know whet was pastes in Ireland. What had occurred at Belfast, in Doss, Antrim Ike. ? Those places had opposed the measure of aped; but they all supported the Reform Bill. However , he wield net follow the Honourable Member through his tissue of nalarepresnatialeas. They were not new—there was no novelty about thaw= bed been retreated a thousand times before, and as often They had before bees told of the danger of the Monad% the Pomp, and the Ouch; but what wu the ground fat seek domes ? What 11119 the laudation of the Monarchy? Ell it then depend M MIN lenimghs, trafficking in seats, the de. Latrzof saki the *hem vote in that House—(llan Mewl ;NINIIII sr balm claim to the support awl the feeds ran the retention of those nominations, the media of which stjtMekei • 01M1 le the eyes of that house, and of' the Omettution = And the mighty Protestant Church, too, bad it no better ? field k sot stand except sustained b not only "airs from Heaven; bet "this ars Ildl ?" &way, the ffeasrehy, the the Chao* had essakt Ilimmilatisim than rotten boraighs, and obsesin. Those who glom ,Ibp b are contending for the power GC the oligarchy that kw been NOM Awn the Crown. the Constitution, and she mantry. • (Hear, bear.) He said that England had more than a oinmenemets proportion of representation compared with that of Ire lad. He serebated the Inglillnasa of the Scotch Members, and also the want ofello , ll *OM* tithe Irish members, who had not stood up with reg. MR INS emmairy's rights. He referred to a charge of combleack• bed hens wade against the Irish members by I member for Umlaut (Oweeral Hatheyne), and reprobated the charge as false and uniundeL Ireland gold more taxes than England in (A lenee s -old ales of No, no.) He thanked them for C il larh. but be wee pewee' to show that a number of taxes paid by Inland, were entered under the bead of England, and Ireland lad no credit for the amount; to that it was said that Ireland did not defray the express of its pretaides. If Ireland were fairly dealt with, these would be an of at least thirty members. Did they think that Ireland, one of the most Milligan countries in the world, wish be' amused by the mockery of a ahem union. Give them • fair wpm& tation, and then they will be as one nation: (hear, hest.) Genihmen aid " Hear, hear," as if in mockery, but be cared not ; he wadi WSW bath to the motion. and be would ask, would they give to Belfast and several other places what they took from Garton sad Old Serum ? But the English bill would have his Nippon, because he had no mean feel. ing ; and he would ask the Gallant General to throw his motion to the wind, and lend his aid to assist poor Ireland. Air. HUNT rose to reply, chicly to what had fallen from an hon. member, who said that if the bill passed, nothing but radical reformers, and those who might be sent to gaol for crating a tiot, would be re. turned. He (Mr. Hunt) detailed a number of Members who, he said, were already secured for different places to be given franchise to, nem of whom, be demonstrated, could come utak? the designation ' that bad been applied by the honourable member. Mr. H. went into a lug explanation and defence of his conduct from the attacks that had WO made upon him. He said that his objection to the Bill was be. scan it had not come up to any point that be had defended throughout hie life. If they bad granted universal sufilage, protected by vote by beast, be would ask no more. (Hear, hear.) He could tell the house deal radical reformers out of doors only looked at the Bill as a stepping. some to something better. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) But sethetbeless he would support the Bill by his vote, and be would be alliented if he bad succeeded in rooting out one rotten borough.— (laud cries of " Question, question.") lk R. PEEL said, he hod purposely refrained from rising after the beasenek member for Waterford, lest he might catch the contd. glen tithe 'irk in which the speech was delivered. He bad spent di pow of Ns earliest political life in Ireland, and be ammdal that thee lig or asulaudis pot apes the relation bstwesa the ammeethe by ebobew soak, watathases He had sear beard dog pV ties that athseeseas ishmeisa alio swim of the house balsoft head sal bes, -wise had pat math ism ea tbe nytesethadea et Indeed a Ise the joebeigle of this bill as applied to all the WWI be eillellieth the test Weal leloust which exesMM ow "V":"" S'. ,'r 100,000,000, it was but mineable to contend, that no abridgement should take place in the representation of England. He did not sop. peso that the amendment would preclude an increase of members to Scotland and Ireland—all that t he y contended for was not to infringe upon the representation of England. He appealed to the noble lonl if be had not stated that he was prepared to accede to keep the numbers the same as they bad been. He was prepared unequivocally to oppose the bill. He upbraided the ministers with vacillation H e , however, was ready to declare, that be did sot wean to bring forward any measure in justaztion, to Mistrals the eassoure of the govern. moot. The bones di Ayes for the motion .. ••• ••• Nees ... .. .. • • .. 21l Majority for General Oseasynes Modes, that the present number of Members for England shall not be diminished . . 8 ... .. Oa the motion of Lord J. RUSSELL, it was resolved, that the house should resolve itself into a Committee on the Bin on Thuralay. The House adjourned at Five o'Clock. SECOND EDITION. STAR OFFICE, SEVEN O'CLOCK. HOUSE OF CONS—Tuts DAY. At this hOur, the result of the deliberations of the Cabi net Council, and the determination of his MAJESTY, are not known. It is, however, considered certain, in well informed quarters, that if his MAJESTY do not consent to an immediate diss olution of Parliament, Ministers will resign. Sir H. PARNRLL took the oaths and his seat for Queen's county. Mr. BELL presented the petition of the county of Northumberland, against the reform bill. Mr. BEAUMONT declared that this was not the petition of the county, but that of the Duke of Northumberland, and other persons by whom it was signed, under that influence. A circular had been sent round to the tenants, stating that if they did not sign their names would be forwarded to the Duke. Sir H. HARDINGE observed, that the circular was the set of the Duke's commissioners; that the Duke had never interfered with the ex. sreise of their opinions, and that the dreular was a confidential commu nication of the Commissioners, never intended for the public.—(Hear.) Petition ordered to be printed. Mr. FERGUSON presented a petition in favour of Reform. Sir G. MURRAY said the property of Scotland was against the MeSsure. Sir O. CLERK spoke to the like effect. Sir C. FORBES declared that the boroughs which the petitions op posed, ought to be preserved as most useful to the public. Sir R. VYVYAN complained of this discussion being 'protracted, it precluded members from the opportunity . of presenting petitions. lie had attended several days to present a petition from his constituents apinht the Reform Bill, signed by 33 magistrates and upwards of 7000 freeholders, and if this course of debating petitions were perse vered in, there would be no chance of presenting the petitions which several members had to submit to the house. Mr. BEAUBIONT presented similar petitions in favour of Reform. PIUTON REIPOSM PETITION. Mr. WOOD presented a petition from Preston, sign d by 2,400 of his constituents, in favour of the Reform Bill. Mr. FYLER said that the people of Coventry considered themselves equally misiepresented by the hon. member for Preston (Mr. Hunt). They were decidedly favourable to the people.—Pedtion ordered to be printed. STATRNIENT of the VOTES of the Sixteen Representatives of Middlesex, London, Westminster, Southwark, and Hertfordshire, ea the 19th April, 1831, and voted for his Majesty's Ministers and the Reform Bill, and theme against, and absent. MAIIIIIi MIDDLISIM County Home, Joseph Byng, George Wood, Matthew Waldman, Robert Ward, William Thompson, William Burdett, Sir F. Bart. Hobbonse, J. Cam ...... Wilson, Gen. Sir Robert .... Calvert, Charles Sehrightt London Westminster ..—, Southwark • • lIIITIORDSIIIII County Hertford Be. Alban's ' Sir J. But. .. .........' hart., Nicholson ..... - •• Viscount T. & Tennant, Charles ..... Orimetes, Viscount I-1.-1. - Total 12 3 1 REFORM OF PARLIAMENT—(ENOLAND.) 111111111DMENTS PLOPOIRD IX THE COMMITTEE OX TER SR. VORM or PARLIAMENT DILL, ET LORD JOHN ROSICLL. Boroughs to be withdrawn from Schedule (A), and placed in Schedule (B): Aldborough (York) Okehamptcm Buckingham Reigate Malmesbuty Boroughs to be withdraws from Schedule (B). and return their present number of Member: Leominster Truro Morh Westbury Nottballerton Wycombe Tatum:ink _ Towns to be placed in schedule (D) to have one member : Bury Stoke.upomTrent Halifax, taken from Salford schedule (C) 'Wakefield Oldham Whitby Rochdak Counties to have an additional member each, undivided: — Berke Glamorgan Bucks Hereford Cambridge Henfoed Dorset Oxon • It was by mistake that we included Chippenham in the list of Boroughs to be withdrawn from schedule B. REDUCTION OF OFFICIAL SALARIES. A Parliamentary Paper has just been printed, containing the copy of a Treasury Minute, dated the 15th instant, showing the reductices which his Majesty's present Ministers have e ff ected in the salaries of the great Olken of State. As we have at room to give this interesting document at length, we have abstracted tlte matter of it, as follows : TR/AWRY. Future Redue. Spry. tion. Meet Lord, when held in conjunction with the Chan 'Worship of the Exchequer . 4500 Z 2500 Mat Lord, when unconnected with the Chancellorship of the Exchequer Chancellorship of it:chequer . . (Junior Lords of the 1 emery to be reduced to 12001 Amount of reduction not stated.] Joint Secretaries of the Treasury Need Secretaries of State, each Parliamentary Under Secretaries of State, each - 1500 [Permanent Coder Secretaries of State to remain at pre sent salary,2oooL each ] Lord President . Lord Privy Seal . [The present Privy Seal, Lord Mayhem, has relin quished the entire salary.] INDIA BOARD. President - - Paid Commis.lnnen . . 2000 3000 1000 . . WOO 11500 - - 1200 600 - IWO 300 - 2000 1000 Secretary (With as eddldon of MI Art doe you' swim) Judge Admits First Lord . . . . ADMIlliaLTIre - - - 4889 SOO - MO 1000 First Secretary [With an addition of 5001. after live years' service.] BOARD 07 OILDNANCIi. blaster-General, and Captain of Cadet Company, oluy abolished - - • ' - Treasurer and Secretary to the Master Geneol, each . 474 Wu Leib • ...IMO - e • [Theote of iishoend, the present holdo af this slice, ban rellordsholl salary altogether.] Maws el the Mint . . . If. Chid dereasari of Wood, in lieu of an leer other f - and eassissionts Lord Chemin of Wad . . . 8000 --- (A nehisden t bet soma tistdats ab al bsd. Rows of the !Way =Wise to be Moot of savloga e l asse st The Lord High G oof logland.—Ths solloodoo preload SG be ellhood k the sionionoNs ot the Lod Chnsoller, err the Mims sod instoomilesisse of his Leek* (land anmit iti ,_ ewe way be orris* hillo silo by legislative moms ri=e *WWI In to of c nbkh odes ho loess Ono by d ie die irkstrars die promo Sessia. Raw oldie Ossallsal oC —The saloy to be dieeontinard, and the toosisseds• to dispod wpm the amount of foe rewired. ';fi • I rl t ~l ( ..., 1: : .. 1 A