Star. — London, England, 1821-04-10 00:00:00

A . ... , man was more anxious than himself for the speedy passing into a law of that Bill gof histice and mercy towards the Roman Ca tholic subjects of the kingdom. Yet, as he conceived it a matter of the greatestimpertanathat this Bill should undergo the fullest discussion, and as be knew that several Noble Lords who wished to take a part in it were now on their way to towp, and might not be able to be present to-morrow, he should move to discharge the order for the second reading of the Bill to morrow, that the .saine.be read a ►ecpnd tins:. on Monday next; that the order for summoning their Lordships to-morrow be dis charged, and that the Lords be summoned for Monday next. Lord ItOLLE thought a postponement of this kind would be very hard upon those Lords who had been attending every day in expectation of the business being brought on to-morrow. After some further conversation, the order of the day for the second reading of the Bill was withdrawn, and renewed fur Monday next. GRAMPOUND DISFRANCHISEMENT. The Earl of LAUDERPA LE presented a Petition from the Borough of Grampound, in Cornwall, against the Bill for Disfranchising that Borough, in which the Petitioners prayed that they might be heard, by Coun sel, against the same. The Earl of CARNARVON expressed his surprise that a Petition of this kind should come forward on the very day fixed for the second reading, and when all the witnesses were in attendance ready to be exa mined. The question had undergone a long discus sion in the House of Commons ; the Bill had been lying twenty days on their Lordships' table, and why did not these parties send their Petition sooner ? Would the House listen to the application of persons, who, by their own lashes, had rendered themselves unworthy of any indulgence? If such a course as this wet e suffered to take place, they never would be . . able to get through the Bill. The Earl of LAUDERDALE did not think that the Petitioners wished to delay this Bill ; but his advice was, that they should defend their rights whenever they were attacked. He was instructed to inform the House, that the Petitioners would have been ready with their Counsel that day ; but it so hap pened that the Counsel were absent. For his own part, he should oppose a Bill - that went to inflict an indiscriminate punishment on the innocent as well as on the guilty. The LORD CHANCELLOR was aware, that any thing which fell from him might be looked upon with jealousy, as he had already stated that the measure would probably not meet with his consent. As in' an ordinary Court of Justice notice was given to the parties, he thought here also the Petitioners ought to be allowed a few days to prepare themselves. The-Earl of CARNARVON urged the necessity of proceeding with all expedition with the Bill.— Their Lordships were aware, that on Monday the Catholic Bill was to be discussed, and probably the first stage 'of it would occupy their Lordships two nights in debating. On the Thursday follovt ing, the House would adjourn for the holidays. The effect, therefore, of the postponement would obviously be an extinguishment of the Bill, and, by a side wind, to throw it out. The Earl of LAUDERDALE moved, that the se cond reading of the Bill he postponed till Friday next. The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that if there were individuals in Grampoiind who were inno cent, this measure was to them ex post facto, and a Bill of Pains and Penalties. Whenever this Bill was considered, he hoped there would be a full attendance. Lord HOLLAND thought, that the most regular mode of proceeding would be to call in the Petitioners, and to ask them if they had anything to urge why the .second reading of the Bill should be postponed ? He thought, if a reason were assigned that they were not prepared with Counsel, that would be sufficient to induce their Lordships to delay. Barl GREY never heard an application for delay less supported by argument than this; for, after the Bill had been before Parliament so long, it was ab surd in the Petitioners to say they had 'no time to in struct Counsel. Therefore, if there was any hardship in the case, it was owing to the laches of the Petitioners themselves. He denied that this Bill was one of Pains and Penalties, for the parties affected could not claim a right of suffrage for their own advantage, for they exercised it for the benefit of the Public, and he would oppose the postponement of the Bill. The Earl of WESTMORELAND thought it would be most unjust to refuse the Petitioners the small re quest of delaying the Bill for a few days. He con tended that the Bill was one of Pains and Penalties; for it went to punish one set of men for the offence of others, if such offences had been committed. The Marquis of LANSDOWN was against any delay, as the parties affected by the Bill had all the notice of its proceeding through the other I - louse and this House a long time ago. Yet, with all the knowledge they possessed, they had by their own lathes declined to give notice to this House ; and their Petition only brought down that day was to be made the foundation for moving for delay. The in habitants of Grampound had every opportunity of giving full consideration to the• Bill—and now, on the very day of the second reading, they made an unreasonable and suspicious application, with a view to defeat a measure which no man could wish to see frustrated, except on private grounds. The LORD CHANCELLOR repeated his opinion that he did not think this a Bill which ought to pass; most certainly it was one which ought not to pass without the innocent parties, who are to be disfran chised by it, having an opportunity of being fully - heard—( Hear). The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that it would be harsh to proceed in the absence of the Counsel whom the parties desired ; but he suggested the propriety of merely adjourning until Wednesday; that would still leave three days of the,present %reek for proceeding upon the Bill; four days,if they sat on Saturday. The Earl of SARNARVON agreed in the sug gestion of the i lifihle - Va,r& After a few words in eiptanation from the Noble Lords who Irad-spoken i it was agreed that they should enter - upon tke consideration of the Bill at half-past fottvo'clKli, on Wednesday, and sit gate on Friday miAr,,, so as to preclude, if possible n * necessity of sitting on Saturday. IRISH COMMERCIAL INTERC9ORSE. Earl DAKIILFY moved for the production of a copy of the Memorial of the Bank of Ireland to the Lora of ,the , Treasurr, relative to the Union Duties beti:yeen'Great Britain ancrlreland, and other papers. The. Earl, cif LIMERICK approved of the motion, which was agreed to. • The other Orders of the Day being disposed of, the House adjourned at Seven o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. R. SMYTH moved that leave be given the Short-hand Writer who attended the Committee on the 'Hedon Fiection, to prodtke the Slinutes of evidenie which he then took at the next Middlesex' Sessions, to be used in a prosecution for perjury against a witness who was examined before the said Committee. Leave given. Sin W. -I.EMON presented a-Petidon from the Freeholders of Cornwall, which bad been agreed to at a County Meeting. The Petition prayed three things—First, that the Queen might be restored- to all her Bights—Secondly, that some, retrench ment shimld be . Made in the public burthens ; and some . of those Taxes repealed' which presied -Aunt heavily on the Agri cultural Interests—and, lastly, that the House would carry into effect-some temperate measure of Parliamentary Reform. The Hon. Baiimet said'he concurred in - the prayer of the Petition. • Mr . . VON AYNE ri)ae to say, that he adopted every seuti ment in iheVetition which had been just presented. •He hoped the question regarding her Majesty would soon be set.at rest. — Ile agreed that retrenchnient was called tor, but on Parlia mentary Reform, perhaps, he was nut prepared to go the . whole wiy with these Petitioners.—The Petition was ordered to lie upon the table and to be printed. Three Petitions were presented from the Manufacturers of Bradford, Trowbridge, and Melksham, in Wilts, praying the repeal of the Wool Duties.—Laid on the table. Mr. F. BUXTON gave notice, that en Wednesday next he would call the attention of the House to the barbarous custom, still prevalent in British India, of Wives burning themselves on the funeral piles of their husbands. Mr. TREMAY NE presented four Petitions from the County of Cornwall, complaining of Agricultural Distress.—Laid on the table. Captain WEMYSS presented a Petition from Alexander Balfour, merchant, of Kirkaldy, against any alteration of the Duties on the importation of Sawed Timber.—Laid on the table. Mr. HUNTER BLAIR presented a Petition from the At tornies and Solicitors of the Court of Session, Scotland, pray ing to be heard by Counsel against the Bill now before the House for regulating the Court of Session.—Read, ordered to lie upon the table, and be printed. A Petition from Gloucestershire, complaining of Agricultural Distress, was read,and ordered to be referred to the Committee. Mr. A. BARING presented a Petition from the Proprietors of Bonded Grain, of Dundee, against the Bill now before the Howse for altering the Corn Averages.—Read, ordered to lie upon the table, and be printed. Mr. T. W I LSON presented a Petition from the Merchants and Corn Proprietors of the Cit . ) , of London, against the Bill now before the House for altering the Corn Averages.—Read, ordered to lie upon the table, and be printed. WOOL DUTIES. Mr. THOMAS WILSON then rose to present al Petition from the Merchants, Traders, and Ware housemen of the City of London, praying . a Repeal of all Duties on the /Importation of Foreign Wool. The subject was an important one, and he hoped the', House would pardon him if he took this opportu nity of saying a few words upon it. The Petition' stated, and he had otherwise good reason to belieie, that the allegation was not incorrect, that if the pre sent system of shutting out foreign wool without serving that of home growth was acted upon, the consequence would be, that we should lose our wool len manufacture altogether. The United States, in particular, were likely to run away with this most important branch of our manufactures, unless some steps were immediately taken to put the English buyer on the same footing with the manufacturers of other countries at the foreign markets, and this could only be done by . taking away those impediments to importation which the present high duties created. It was a fact that the importation of foreign wool had fallen off in a great degree, and that the expor tation of woollen goods was of course diminished in the same proportion. He had at that moment a letter which he had received from Bilboa, in Spain, dated so lately as February, in which it was stated that no less than three American vessels had just then cleared out, laden with Spanish wool. This was quite un precedented, and ought to shew how the operation of the Wool Duties was driving that trade from us into another channel. The Honourable Member then stated another fact of an English merchant who had bought a cargo of wool, but finding that it would not pay him if he landed it here at the expense . of the Import Duties, he re-sold it to an American manu facturer. A vessel at Liverpool, similarly situated, with 250 bags_ on board, was re-sold to an Ameri can, rather than be landed at the high duties. He also mentioned that he had had a communication with a manufacturer in the City, who was in the habit cf receiving an annual order from America to the amount of £6,000 for fine woollen goods and stuffs, but that order had been lately transferred to Bre men and other places on the Continent, who were , now rivalling us in that trade. The high duties on wool served to keep the English manufacturer out of the market, by which a great advantage was given the foreigner, who was thereby enabled to sell the finished material cheaper. And yet it was a fact that good cloths could not be made of English wool alone, for a portion of Spanish wool was absolutely neces sary to give them a soft and fine appearance. Not withstanding the tax of 335. on wool, hitherto we had kept up a tolerable trade with America, but since that duty was raised to 50s. the trade had fallen off. The Americans could not buy at our prices, and thus we obliged them to become manufacturers, whether they would or not. He asked, was it good policy to drive away this great staple manufacture, which it was the ambition of our ancestors to countenance and en courage? There was only one way by which it could be retrieved, and that was by placing the English manufacturer on the same footing with the foreigner in the market, and there was no doubt but his capi tal and his industry would soon restore the trade to this country. In addition to the letters the Honour able Member had received, he had one more to men tion, and that also he received from another manu facturer in the City. That person stated that he was now unable to dispose of his goods abroad, as the fabrics of Aix-la-Chapelle were sold cheaper, and were quite as good in quality. The Honourable Member concluded by calling on the House to take the subject into their serious consideration. To the agricultural Gentlemen, he would say, that by sup porting this tax they were doing a great injury to others without serving themselves. 1-le was sure a paltry income of £lBO,OOO a-year, which mas the produce of this duty, would be no impediment to the restoration of this very important branch of our manufactures. Mr. A. BARING said that, as a friend of his had given notice of a motion to repeal these duties, he would abstain, for the present, from stating his opi nions on them. He could not help saying, however, that it was a most important question, and if the House did not attend to the various Petitions which came in from the country touching it, we were likely to lose that trade altogether. Mr. HUSKISSON thought the Honourable Mem ber who spoke last was right in not giving an opi nion on the expediency of the Wool Duties, until they came to be regularly discussed, when the mo tion should come before the House. He should fol 101/rth at licique: table Member's example and% reAlly • 'thought that rietruld be a fitter time to State his Olt ! , Huskissoresr views of the subject, than to give them', in answer to ,the ex-parte statement of the Honour-. able. Member for the City of London. With regard . to the amount of the duty, however, which lastybar amounted to giso,ooo, _he could not help saying, that as that proved that 8 ; 000,600 lbs. of wool bad „been imported, it furnished no great evidence of a falling off in the trade.—The Petition was then laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. COMMITTEE ON THE NEwiNoTO brlfiESTirir BILL. : - I Mr. H. SUMNER, finding the House disinclined on Friday last from going into the details of what led "to the dissolution of the late Committee on this Bill, would now, without any comment, simply move, that the Committee be revived—(Hear). Mr. H. ci..BENNETT said, after the part taken by the Honourable Member for Surrey, 'his mouth, re specting what passed in the Committee, should be sealed up. It was, however, but justice to say, that if there was any expression of . bad feeling in the Committee, that Hon. Member and his friends were not backward in displaying their share of it—(Hear). Mr. 11. SUMNER then moved, that the Commit tee do resume their labours tomorrow. Sir It. WILSON said, the parties at the other side would be thereby taken by surprise, for they expected three days' notice before the Committee sat again. The SPEAKER suggested Wednesday ; though, he said, the parties were mistaken who thought three days' notice necessary. A conversation then ensued between Mr. H. SUM-. NER, Sir W. De CRESPIGNIty Mr. DENISON, and Mr. Alderman Worm, as to the propriety of putting it off to Wednesday, and the gallery was ordered:to be' cleared for a division, but Mr. SUMNER at length consented to frame his motion for the Committee to sit on Wednesday, not to-morrow. CONWAY JERRY. In a Committee of the whole House, Mr. CANNING rose to move a Grant to defray the expense of erecting a Bridge over Conway Ferry. He should next move that an additional penny be paid on the postage of all letters carried along it, and the sum thus raised, with the tell that would be on it, would meet the charge, so that ultimately the Public would be paid the sum . which it was now pro posed to advance. Ile moved that a grant, not ex ceeding 1.40,000, should be made out of the Conso. lidated Fund, to defray the expense of erecting .a Biidge over Conway Ferny. A conversation of some length followed, in which Mr. J. SMITH, Mr. BENNETT, Mr. ABVSCROMIY, Mt. Husritssow, Mr. BARING, Sir lI.,PARNELI., Mr. Alderman WOOD, and Mr. F. CAMPBELL, took a, part, after which the Resolution was agreed to; as was the one for imposing an additional charge on the. postage of letters passing along the Bridge. The House then resumed, and the Report of the Commit.: tee was ordered to be received to-morrow. INDEPENDENCE OF PA RLIAM ENT.- Mr. BENNETT gave notice, that he woltld; the 17th of May, move for leave to bring in for the better securing the independence of Parlia. ment, by the exclusion of certain Pensioners, better • known by the name of Placemen. AFRICAN CON, PA N-Y. The House went into a Committee on the African Company Abolition Bill. • Mr. BENNETT objected to the clause proposing compensation upon general principle. Mr. GOULBURN said, the compensation, in this case, did not go upon general principle, but arose out of this particular case. The Honourable Gentle man did not object to the Crown taking* the posses sion of the Company's forts; neither ought he to ob ject to the Company's servants receiving compensa. tion for that of which, by this new arrangement, they would be deprived. It should be recollected, that many of the persons in question had gone out in their youth, and given their best years to the service of the Public ; and, if deprived of their present situations, they would be fit for nothing else, and would be thrown adrift in Africa, unprovided for. He con ' tended, that, after giving compensation, the measure ' I would still be one of economy. Mr. HUME said, no one wished to object to giv ing compensation where it was due; all they ob., jected to was, to giving a discretionary power to Mi nisters. Let the Honourable Gentleman point out who he wished to give compensation to, and then come to the House to have it conferred. He knew not what might be the opinion of the House on this subject; but unless the Honourable Gentleman agreed to come to the House on this subject, he would take the sense of the Committee on this clause. Mr. GORDON agreed, that the question of com pensation should be submitted to the House. After a few words from Mr. SMYTII, Mr. BENNETT moved, as an Amendment, that the Words added to the clause should be, 44 that no compensation should be considered as finally or con clUsively granted, until first submitted to Parliament." Mr. GOULBURN did not wish to oppose this Amendment.—lt was then adopted. Some further conversation took place on other clauses of the Bill, but no Amendment was moved. Mr. GOULBURN then proposed a clause for uniting the African forts to the Crown, and placing them under the Government of Si e rra Leone. Mr. W. SMITH hoped care would be taken to in terdict the Slave Trade.—The Resolution was agreed to.—The HoUse resumed.—Report to-morrow. BANK CASH PAYMENTS. The CHANC ELLOR of the tX.eil QUEII moved the Order of the Day fur the !loose going into a Committee on this Bill. • Mr. W4ItRE wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether GOveEnment had any intention of proposing an Amendment in the Smuggling Laws? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he could not answer that question. On the question for the SPEAR 61 leaving the !Chair, Mr. BARING said, he felt disposed to move that the whole subject of the Cash Payments should .be referred to a Committee; and if he was at all encou raged to d0..50, he should divide the House upon it. He consideted the state of our currency as the great cause of the present general distress.. The alteration in the value of our currency was the root of our dif ficulties. He considered the difference between the present value and that of money at .its most &pre._ crated' state, aslgreatly exceeding 25 per cent. and he should now propose the appointment of a Commit tee to inquire whether any and what alteration could lae'Made for the relief of the Public, in the prev i e w the Act of the 59th of th e l ate King, chap 's e *as aware that it was desirable to interfere pith ibis question as little as possible, and therefor e o n l y upon the most mature cons id erat i on would he re commend any alteration. He need not remind the House. of the repeated assertions which had bees made in the House and elsewhere, that no depreci a , tion in the value of money had takes place. Perso ns crediting these assertions had entered into engage: ments, and made bargains and contracts, which now they foetid themselves utterly unable to fulfil. An Hon. Friend of his had said, look to the value of the precious metals ; but he (Mr. Baring) would say look at the value of every as tick of life; and it would )re found that the alteration was one-third, one-fourth; and in ninny cases one-half. Take the price of corn as it. stood now as regarded o th er articles pretty nearly - 2S ii did, it would buy as much sugar or lea titer as formerly ; but still the farmer could not sue, tain himself, -because he had so many cash payments to make in his altered;currency. He was aware that the standard could not be touched without injustice to some individuals ; but having touched it, he thoughtl he fairest course would he to fix the standa r d at as near a proportion with the value of commodi ties as po;silaje.• Previous to 1797 the pound of W.. vet- was worth 625.- e -now saner was at 4s. 101 we ounce—a difference of seven per cent. This dire r . • ence had therefore taken place in the value of oar four standards ; and bad we never meddled with t h e standard, silver would have been seven per cm lower than it at present was. Much difficulty weed be ridded to the operations of the Bank if there was only metal for a legal tender. The country WAS un der.too great difficulties to be looking to beautiful theories on the subject of the circulating medium. Had the sovereigns been made to pass ere- 21s. like the guinea, it would have been no bleach of faith. The year 1797 was not to be looked to, as that was the time when the circulating medium was first die turbed. The pound sterling was now higher than it had ever been before. It would be some time befm e the prices adapted themselves to the altered value of thecoin. The price of labour had varied but little; and though it must come down, yet it men b e through much distress, and must causegreat discon tent. That was one of the great difficulties of the present situation. It would take years to adapt the existing state of things to the standard; and it would have been much better to have adapted the set-Mani to that scale of things. It would be torebe.Ho t o e to consider if the country could go pa inethe,pleseet 'state of thin s; and if note thie-subject :ehouliMed reconsidered leisurely, Rd the Houseshouldim - Z:7 km one year to elapse. If the -..thancelleest the Exchequer thott'ghe_ his finance woad-keep upwitier: the state of eurrency,ehe-weuld find himself die. alipoitted. • If iehad 'dune Stehitherto, it was mei% to the price of severel,ilasses of labdr being over. Itoseexperiment . was extremely perilous, to try how manyedvoaes could be kept in a hive in pro pos-ties* tisehe bees. He should move, that a Select Committee be appointed . to Cenilder thes9th.of the )ate King, ch. 49,. and to report ..if it Was expedient to make any alteration in the same. Mr. ATTWOOD said, that.in the years 1815 ana 181 G, the.country began. to' import bullion; and is the year 1818 the same gold was exported, in atime of prosperity; and had now re-appeared, in the pre sent time of distress:—£4 per ounce hid not been the price at which the country had been enabled' to buy gold *till the time-of the present aistress. It was net the Debt alone that oppressed the People, but the Debt and the Taxes combined, and the flux and re flux of this Precious metal, gold. We should return. to that system from which we had departed with in considerate haste. Every species of property, but that of annuitants, had lately experienced a great fluctua tion. The currency of the country had been derv. ciated from twenty to fifty per cent. during the war, but the value of the currency had been restored . ; and a fall of prices-hadtaken place in 1816, and also now.' In 1818, when the currency had been depreciated. the prices rose. But it was the duty of the House* dispel the obscurity in which the subject was involvedt and all the distress had arisen from the restorations' . the ancient standard, and was the price paid for thit restoration. But that circumstance had escaped the attention of the Committee of 1818. The standard of value had been lowered and raised alternately, and the consequences had escaped attention. To the low scale of prices all the distress of all classes was resolvable. A reduction of .Bank-eotes, since 1814 had taken place, from £29,000,000 to £211,000,001 part of the lands had been thrown out of cultivation, and the shipping of the country was too great for its commerce. A diminution in the demand of lake, would necessarily' cause a diminution in the supple- In the year 1818, when the price of malt was Weir the consumption was greater, by 800,000 quota* than in 1820, when the price was far lower. hind been said, that the quantity of British spirits had to., creased, though the price of malt was low; but the • Noble Lord who had made that statement bad teije taken the quantity of wash for that of spirit. heal of the utmost importance to probe the subject, and he believed it wits in the power of the Govern ment to remove the distress, by giving back to the country that standard in which the Debt oldie cow try had been contracted: That had been done to a certain extent in 1816; and had the Governmentth* ; made the Batik -notes exchangeable at a real value, all the subsequent distress would have been avoided. To return to the old standard would give a remune ration price for evcry.specis of labour. In 1: 97, much injustice had been committed; but the Pel''‘. Creditor of 1797 had become the Land-holder ot 1820, and to indemnify the Fund-holder - of lari would be attended witlethe utmost injustice to tbs Land-holder of 182.0. • None of the Esteldishases• of this country. could be regulated by a blind doh ence to the srandard -of 1797. The -Horroue# o Gentleman who preceded him had p r opn;ektorir* the prices teak aloe utt of six or . eight-per cent.—be' yotutehat it wasimPossible to go, except by the ino3e that he had recommended. Should tlio preseLt be persisted:in,. it ierreld consign to the Werkleents, the most valuable'part . ef the community. On the question being put from the Chair, • The CHANCELLOR of the.EXCIIEQUER semi that lie had been reproached with supporting tilicial order of things, and delaying a return to IT old system ; inn -now the. Ilouie. was , 4;414 0 9 ,w_ adapt the state of things to the stendarei. H e wished to know what that standard was? Whatev I 1 w: be 91