Star. — London, England, 1817-06-26 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 25 . An Account of the Tolls taken at the koyal Military Canal was presented by Mr. Sw/tosi, and laid upon the table. l.ord HOLLAND presented a Petition from the Freeholders and others, inhabitants - of the County of Warwick, agreed to at a Meeting regularly convened, against a continuance of the Fuspenslon of the Habeas Corpus Act; which, beirg read, was ordered tib be laid upon the table. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a Petition from the Trustees and Managers of the British Provident Institution, In favour of the Saving Banks 8i11..-4.111/ epon the table. lite West India Trade Regulation Bill, and one or two other Bills, were brought up from the Commons, by Sir I A S•GRA fiAM and others, and read the firld rime ; as were also a few Private Bills, presented by Mr. ASMURVT and Mr. Nevese4x, Viscmint SIDMOUTH, by command of the Prince Regert, presented Copies of the Communications between his Majesty's Ministers and the Government of Ireland, relative to the appoint ment of the High Sheriff of the County of Tipperary, in pursu ance of a recent Address of their Lordships. IRISH INSURRECTION BILL• On the question for their Lordships' going into a Committee on this Bill, The EAT' of LIVERPOOL stated, that an opinion generally prtvailed, especially with those most con versant with the state and circumstances of Ireland, that the measure in question was necessary at present. On a former occasion, a Bill of the same kind was passed for seven years. On an occasion since that, such I measure was agreed to for three years, but that now before their Lordships was proposed only for one year's continuance. He moved that the House do now resolve itself into the Committee. Tie Earl of DONOUGHMOKE :aid, that in his mind suff•cient grounds were not laid by iris Majesty's Government for the adoption of this measure. The Noble Earl who moved it seemed to regard it as a matter of course, and that its being upon the Statute Book was a sufficient argument for its continuance. Their Lordships, perhaps, may not be.fully aware of the effect of the measure before them, which went no less than to create two new kinds of offence, for which the part es, without the intervention of any kind of Jury, rT the benefit of a Judge's attendance, were liable to be transported for seven years ; those offences were—one for a person being absent from his usual place of residence, at any time between sun rise and sun set : and the other, for his being found any where else—(A smile). At the same time, lie Would say, it it were determined that such powers should be given, they could not be, he thought, in better hands than in those of the present Lord Lieu tenant of Ireland—(Hear). Upon the whole, he would not oppose the Bill, the more so as it was not a measure by which the Catholics seemed to be af fected, but to be equally applicable to Protestants as to them. He was happy to understand it to be in the contemplation of his Majesty's Government to pay a par titular degree of attention to the case and circumstances of. Ireland—a case which called for their most serious attention, and in nothing scarcely More than with respect to the mode which prevailed in that country relative to the appointment of Sheriffs. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, it was known to be a general sentiment (though perhaps not an uni versal one), that it was expedient in the present cir eumstankes of Ireland to adopt the measure in ques tion for a limited time. The actual necessity of the Measure seemed to arise from the existence of such a state of things,' snd such a combination of circum stances, as could not from their-nature be under the eontrool sir power of. Government, but which was not attributable to any-political causes whatever, and which consideration, as stated in debate at the induced the non extension of the Suspension Bill to that country.. In regard to political considerations, be regarded the Conduct of the inhabitants as of a most exemplary nature. With respect to the Noble Earl's favourable opinion. of the person at the head olAsin:inistration in Ireland, it was one, he believed, which was not only well merited, but one pretty ge nerally entertained, as giving satisfaction, not only to the friends, but to most of the opponents of that Administration. With respect to the attention of his Majesty's Government to the general policy of Ire land; he could assure the House it was most seriously and anxiously directed to the subject with respect to its political and financial concern:, and, in fact, to every description of measure that could affect the government ola country. In all these Ireland was considered by them with the utmost indulgence and ' liberality, and, on some occasions, even some partial sacrifices of the interests of this to that part of the United Kingdom were not spared. With respect to the particular point on which the Noble Earl laid so mach stress, namely; the mode of appointing Sheriffs in Ireland. it was most seriously under their conside tation, and it was proposed to give Jreland every benefit in that respect, by.transacting that part of the Administration upon the strictest judicial principles, and putting it on the same footing as in this country. Lord HOLLAND was of opinion, notwithstand ing what fell twin the Noble Earl, that no necessity was'made out tor the aduption of such a harsh and unconstitutional measure with respeit to Ireland, whose present statc,•he must think, notwithstanding all the favourable attention of his Majesty's Govern ment—not even exclusively, some Aacritice of British iaterestS,..WaS such as to chew there was something fundamentally wrong in the systeaCwhich prevailed for the government of that country. The Earl of LIMERICK expressed his conviction that the r.ut passing of the measure in question would be one of the greatest evils the Legislature could in flict upon that country. He litized the blessings or tie British Cunstitution as much as any man could , do; but those who were unmindful, or spurned at those blessings, ill deserved to participate in them ; and it should be recollected, as iu sonic measure his Noble Friend must be aware that it Wab impossible, ttirough the influence of actual murder and intimida tion, that juries or witnesses could do their duties in Ireland, With the Noble Earl at the head of his Majesty's Councils, lie believed that the present di:- lurbantes in that country had no political object whatever—but the miseries which exist there would be greatly aggravated without the protecting mea sum before the House, of which, of-course, lie must strongly urge the adoption: • • A conversation,, rather of an -explanatory nature, took place between his Lordship and the Noble Ealls who spoke in the discussiou, relative to the actual and the proper mode of the appointment of. Sheriffs i n ' re b i nd, in which an opinion seemed to prevail, that to assimilate the mode of appointment there, to system adopted in this country, would be the' most desirable. The durst►on being put, their Lord , ships resolved into the Committee, and having gone through the Bill, the same was reported without any amendment. Their Lordships then resolved into a Committee on the Saving !Lilts Bill, in which Lord Itenesom after some prefatory observations, moved a Dumber of amendments. These were, after some conversation, in which the LORDCHANCFII.OI I , Lord Ihsrvott, and the Mar quis of LANsoowNst participated, agreed to by the Committer fro forma, in order to their bring printed with a view to farther consideration. The House then resumed, and ordered the Bill, as amended, to be printed.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Petition was presente3 train the teereal Dealers hi Wine and Spirits, In the Town of Preston, praying that the Spirits License Bill might not pass into a law. The House went Into a Committee on the Stone Bottle Act. Report to•mortow. The Report of the Irish Grand Jury Presentment BM was postponed to Friday. • The Report of the Committee on the Lunatic Poor in Ireland was presented, and Mr. Fitzgerald said, be should submit 'a motion to the House on Monday nest. Sir F. BURDEIT gave notice, that be should on Monday bring forwards motion on the subject of Mr. Reynolds. General 7 HORNTON moved for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal such parts of the ifSth and noth of Chark4 IL as related to the declaration against transubstantiation, and declared the doc trine of the Church of Rome to be Idolatrous. lord CASTI.EREAGH thought, as the subject had already undergone a very full consideration during the present Session, in a House numerously attended, the present minion might De considered as an attempt to carry the point by a stale wind, he should therefore move the previous question. The question was thetuput, and the Noble Lord's amendment was earned. Cl/111NET SWUPW. Mr. BENNET rose to make his promised motion relative to that class of Chimney Sweepers. called the Climbing Boys. In consequence of the exertions of a Society formed for the purpose of ameliorating the condition of these unfortunate little creatures, an Act of Parliament was passed some years-ago, con taining several beneficial regulations, and among tbe rest, providing, that no boy of a less age than eight years should be employed in that occupation. That Act, however, was not strictly enforced, and boys of tour, five, and six years of age were employed, in consequence of the nature of some of the flues ; for it was no uncommon thing to meet with flues that were only seven inches wide, and which consequently required children of the earliest age to sweep them. The Bill for which he st as about to move was the re sult of the unanimous judgment of the Committee, of whit% he had had the honour to be the Chairman, The object of it was, not to regulate (tor no regula tion could be satisfactory), but to pot a stop to that species of tradea trade which, he was sure, every Member who had read the evidence annexed to the Report of the Committee, would agree with him in declaring to be unfit for a free and Christian country Uttar, hear.) —By that evidence it appeared, that there Were in the Metropolis 200 Master Chimney Sweepers, of whoin 20 were very respectable men, who took great care of their apprentices. aad treated them with as much kindness and attention as was compatible with their occupation; of 90 others not much could be said in their praise; but the remainder were of a very bad description ; and yet, by this.last class; principally, the youngest bu)s wwe employed, and let out to others; so that the yoaage..t boys had in general the worst masters. Tr.r Committee Isa%l also learnt with horror, that there were places in toe t dom in which female children wire sequence of the smallness of their limbs rendering them better qualified to ascend small chimniit (Hear, hear.)—lt was impossible to represent the mi sery, the disease, the burning:, the accidents (of which every newspaper gave some account or other), and, which was the must important, ,the moral and intel lectual degradation of these unfortunate little beings. On that part of the subject the evidence obtained by the Committee afforded ample information. If he were to. say no more, be apprehended that he should have made out a case quite sufficient to shew that the trade ought to be put down, acid that the House should trust to the mecbanicalingenuitt of the coun try for the means of furnishing an adequate substitute for these children. But this was not the situation of his case. The Committee had learnt with great sa tisfaction, that there were, machines in considerable .use, by which, on the lowest calculation, three-fourths of the chitnnies in the kingdom might be as cleanlz, as cheaply, and as simply swept as by climbing boys; and that, with respect to the remaining fourth, either by inventions already completed and in progress, or by suggestions with respect to certain alterations in shinnies, there would be no difficulty in applying means that would remedy any inconvenience. The Committee had been informed by architects, that 95 out of 100 chimnies might be swept by the mecha nical means already invented ; and there could be no doubt that; if they did not at present exist, other means would easily be devised, to render wholly un necessary this disgraceful traffic ; for a most disgrace ful traffic it was, in which human beings of the ten derest years were bought andstld,stelen,and inveigled into t to most severe and wretched slavery. On these grounds the Committee had come to an unanitnoes resolution, and had instructed him to propose to the House,- the adoption of a Bill les putting a complete end to this business. The Bill would contain three provisions. The first comprehending ail the existing laws on the subject ;, the second prohibiting under heavy penalties, any master chimney-sweeper from taking an apprentice under 14 years of age ; and the third mtposiug either a fine or the punishment of a misdemeanour on any individual Who should employ a person under 21 years of age to ascend a chimney —( Hear, hear )—TheHonoureble Member concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to abolish the practice of sweeping chimnies by means of climbing boys. Mr. WILBERFORCE loose to second the motion and stated, that the nature of the trade was such that the mildest masters were necessarily obliged to be cruel on many occasions ; and the moral degrada. don of these unfortunate beings was beyond all be ' lief. Since the matter was first takersup in 1816, two boys had stuck fast in chimnies, .though belonging to vety humane masters. 10, fact the masters were obliged to use a great degree, of force in the course of instructing the apprentice. When the House con sidered that abomination, that insult on human na ture—the employment of females in this horrid trade, he trusted there Auld be no opposition to the measure. Sir 3. ROMILLY presented a . Petition from err rain master chimnepsweepers, praying that the flons would make.forther inquiry before they adopted any measure for preventing the employing of c.limbiag boys, and expressing their readiness to have the state of the children under their care investigated in any way the House should think proper. The petition was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. Mr. BENNETT then brought up his Bill, which was read a fast time, and prdered to be read a se cond time on friday. NA VICA TIAN. Lord BINNING moved that the House should resolve itself into a Committee, to consider of the Navigation Laws, so far as the same affected the possessions of the East India Company. The Noble Lord said. be was instuced w bring this subject be fore the House in consequence of some proceedings which bad been taken, and sentence given, against a ship for having taken in a cargo of East India sugar, from one settlement to another, without giving bond to the Plantation Conimissioner, as required by the Navigation Act. If this sentence were once to be established, the Navigation Laws would be extended to all the possessions of the East India Company, which they never had been before ; and therefore it was that he now snored that the ouse should go into a Committee on those Acts. The House then went into a Committee, and leave was given to bring in a Bill to exempt the posses sions of the East India Company from certain provi sions of the Navigation Laws. THR SLAVE TRAtit. On bringing up the Report of the African Trade Bill, Mr. J. SM rrH wished to make some observations on this Report, and on a subject nearly connected with it. namely, she Slave Trade ; which notwith standing all our efforts for its abolition, was carried on to a greater extent than ever, by some of the Eu ropean Powers. The Honourable Member said, he had received a letter lately from Sir J. Yeo, which detailed certain facts relative to this trade, from which it appeared, that this trade was carried on by Spain and Portugal to a greater extent than at any former period. The Honourable Member observe& the Governments of Holland, Sweden, sad France, had gained to themselves immortal honour by hating put an end to this trade altogether, so far as related to their States, whilst Spain and Portugal, those two countries for which Great Britain had shed her best blood and expended her treasures, persisted in carry ing on this diabolical and detestable traffic, and that too in a manner which, for cruelty, exceediclany thing we had formerly heard of; since it appeared from Sir G. Yeo's,lettet, that in one ,vessel of only 80 tons burthen, no less than GOO miserable wretches had been stowed, many of whom hai died from the effect of suffocation. He trusted the House would not separate without some motion being submitted to them by an Honourable Friend of his, who had so frequently distinguished himself on this subject. Mr. %VILBERFORCE, atter a few observations, said, be would on Tuesday next submit's motion to the House on the subject. . Mr. BARHAM thought, that if his Majesty's Ministers would exert themselves on this subject, they might put an end to a commerce so disgraceful to human nature as this *as, since he was persuaded the Slave Trade, under whatever colours it might be cv•rir:i on, was carried oa with British capital. He tvas c , f • pinion, had the big which he had bad the bloom or submitting to Olt: Louse been adopted, the rra;.S. warilri have been stn t. Itgp. etitlirm4k4nnch in iminises wish Ids Hothutt.44c ac to the effect which his Bill would have had. 1!.. lioeuurable Friend's Bill was to prevent this country trading with any Colony which purchased Slaves. Had this Bill been adopt ed, it would have had the effect of throwing the trade of those Colonies into the hands of others out of our own, as had been the case 'with the General Slave Trade of the world. He was as inimical to' the Slave Trade as his Honourable Friend, or any man could be, and he hoped that his Majesty's Mini sters would endeavour to bring forward some measure which would effectually put an end to this, disgrace ful traffic, an object which his Honourable Friend's ' Bill would not have effected. Lord CASTLEREAGH assured the Honourable Gentleman, that this subject had engaged the atten tion of his Majesty's Ministers, and given them more pain add labour than any other which hid come tin der their consideratioa. As his Honourable Friend (Mr. Wilberforce) had, however, given notice of a motion on tile, subject, he should retrain boon enter ing further into it at present. The Report was received arid ordered to be printed. FEES. Sir C. BL'RRELL sdid, the House some time ago came to a Resolution to grant a compensation so the servants of the Royal Household, in lieu of pre. seats and fees t notwithstamling which, l►e under stood several Noblemen and Gentlemen had beet applied to for fees as usual. He wished to know , from the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the case was really so ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he had heard also of applications, similar to those mentioned by the Honourable Baronet, but he had reason to believe they had not been made by any one belonging to the Royal :Household, but by strangers, imposing on the credulity of the public; who at present had escaped detection. LORD IDLDOUTH'II LETTPR. Sir SAMUEL ROil - IL LY said, no apology could be necessary for now calling - the attention of the House to the subject of Lord ShimOuch's Letter, though it might be for having- so long delayed to do so. That delay had not arisen from any want of conviction as to the importance of thosubject ; but that conviction impressed on his mind the necessity of well consi dering the subject before he brought it forward, es pecially in times like these, when all qitestions on sub jects of this description were so dexterously fenced with and put aside. With respect to the Letter in question, it was in the recollection of every one that it stated to Magistrates that theybad the power, by law, of holding to bail or committing to prison any person charged with the publishing.a seditious libel. Now, supposing this was the law.; yet it would be.highly 1 blameable for the Execetivairatternment to in terfere, or to direct the Magistrates how - they were to act, as Lord SidmOuth had dime in this case.— What then could be said for a Minister of State who, without any law to jostity him, had presumed to write and even to direct Magistrates, not only as to, the law, but that they should put that law in force on taeneral, that between Cie years IS. 8 acj 1811, though forty cases of libel occurred, in i n, ) one of those cases had the Attorney General thought fit to exercise the power Vested in him, And that w i4 a ease in which a libeller bad persisted in a reFi tion of his libel. Lord Sidniouth, however, b..d upon himself to direct Magistrates to 'eti tins ..i ; ; ,1 occasions, and that upon a law opinion given - ,. Law Officers of the Crown, the Attoir2y and citor Generals. He recollected no preccOent or subject, except one, originating with the szme tory of State, Lord Sidmooth, who on a fermc, c.c. casino had obtained the opinion of t::e :saw -; of the Crown and pbblished it. The i%tts the construction of dn"btful law :tom tve Law 'Officers was for the Crown to ni•tki I, • . The only legal way of deciding lcg4t, aot:Ut • a legal discussion before the Judges or the 1. • by a declaratory Statute of the Legist,c ,,, tempts had been made, indeed, on former , by the Crown, to get a sort of txtra.judicia. . .tion of 'doubtful law from the twelve atoig • : t..it this bad never been considered as a constitute r. proceeding, and much less could the opinion of !i.e i Atterney and Solicitor Qenerals, let their tale nt ; be what they might, be mien as law. What were the eases which occurred in the reign of King Charles I. of ship-money, &c. Here the Court had the orini.:3 of the twelve Judges, yet that opinion had seen thrown; though surely that opinion far v.ceeded:h ofau Attorney and r.ulicitor•Gentral only. 13e merest no personal reflections on his Honour able and Learaed Friends, the late and present Atterley•Generals; bet it had been said by great men, many men's vir tues had struck on the lost of Attorney and Soli:itor Generals. The great Lord Coke, the most virrucui Judge in the times of the Stuarts, and who Anne, of all the twelve Judges, refused to go dowl , m hi. knees and beg pardon of the Privy Cotimil, for having or posed the Crown, when a Judge was supremely ewe.. .pendent. Yet who would have entrusted my 1•':1 V-oke, when Attorney-General, with decidini.; a dc::- • hal point of fart, in which the Crown was:um:erne:it s Yet now we were called on to take the law from the Attorney and Solicitor Generale—twice, recently, it bad been done. Once, about two years ago, the tame Noble Lord had called on an Avori.ey ant 'Solicitor General, to explain a must i .inportant pn;et !of taw—namely, whether the Militia coeld to ken; odied iii a time of peace ? and the 1.4 w 01 - Scer: r ot the Crown gave an answer in the affirmative in less than 24 hours. If law was thus to be taken Ina:* the Law Officers of the Crown, then indeed cite ought to be taken-how those appointments should he made ; and that they should nut be made as they had been in late years. In stating•this, he begged to be Onderstood as not at all reflecting on the last appoint ', went which had taken place; co the contrary, he. I begged to state that, in his opinion, the appointment of a Gentleman who had never bowed himself into notice, or made any subservient professions, but who was selected upon the representation of his talents 'owl virtue*, was highly honourable, both to those ho gave and to him who 'received—(Wear, hear)— itod . , therefore, be trusted nothing which he had said, or might say, et the Ltw Officers of the Crown, could be taken as a personal allusifu to those individuals.— But still he must contend, that to take the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crowa, who were sworn to serve the Crown to the utmost of their power, was highly objectionable, and unconstitutional ; expre sive of that opinion, he should conclude what he had to say to the House by moving two resolution.: first, expressing the opinion of the House. that it was highly prejudicial to the pure administratinn of jir tice, for any Minister of the Crown to interfere in 'he discretionary power vested in the hands of the Ma. gistratn, Oslo direct how that discretionary power should be 'exercised ; and nest, that it tended to t! Subversion of justice for the Minister of the Crown take upon himself to explain the law, especially whet. it respected the liberty of the sohject, and when - thx. law was promulgated on the opinion of the Law Ofl• cers of the •CriNwn. ' The Honourable Gcntletnan said, he should not propose any resolatinn as the power vested in Magistrates, cr as to the nion given by the Law Officers. But he was, ri his own mind, after the most minute investigation of the subject, convinced they possessed no sus!. powers. It there had been such a power vested the Magistracy, he was persuaded it would no: have keen suffered to remain so long tiornewt.--- With respect to the publication of the opinion el ice'. the Law Officers had given, he was convincee. bi. Learned Ft ielids had gr.at cruse to comrlain t`el must have bech deceived, by the Noble Lord. who certainly never could have informed Olt m their op' • nion was to be putlished to the world; otherwise the , ' would never have given one drawn tip in se sieve •Y a mariner, 'Which said, on the face of it, yon a-k • fur an opinlocantbne.ease, and we Rice it to yen or. another. He cited. 2 - number cf opit,ions, to ..he• - . that no Magistrate had a r:gbt to commit a reran fr publishing libels. There was a statute, whet:: re, Magistrates to commit persons for publishing wc•:•..; unlicensed, which might tend to di,tueb the or destroy Religion. When he heard of that Ors ..! be was very much astonished to find cud: 127 coined in it. In this instance he did not con: , •• the Home Secretary, tut of an infringe:my. of • law on the part of the whole Admini:tratiens . more especially of the person at the hend of the a. r But he heard the. Noble Lord, at the bead eT Home Department, treated this matter P . ference, and said, that if any man accwed I:7' • • wish to suppress Sedition and Blasphemy. proud of the chara,e. Such rats the cfcc , , , .. Duke of Alva, for the cruelties comin.ttvt! in the Netherlands. Who would say t!..n . ...! •: try was at present plunged in a state of But let them recollect, that by this fllCat'.;i: were about to impair the Cons:itetion, or destroy it. lie then moved for a copy of the e?• on which die Attorney and ezolicitor•Gc:ieral forr.: - their opinions as to commitments hi for libels. every OCea -wm.l.lllllllllll° l l 4on ; thus inteeeving and t from the agistrates every discret:• niity 1 , 0... Tr.-- The power which was lodged to the person of tl e Attorney General to recommend to .143, 1 ,,:.a t.• mit was seldom used ; yet there was a tecorrin.v.i.'4 tion by a Secretary of State to Itla, l istr t,s. Thu •.I,cy should exercise this power on every occd,icn, Atrtl that a power which Magistrates did wit .111.1 not to possess; a power so great ought rarely to exercised ; indeed it was so seldont exercised oleo by Atomics General, that between Cie years IS. 8 1...._