Star. — London, England, 1817-02-25 00:00:00

. 41 1 . 1 11 1 1.11.1111.111.11.10111 ..,J 0 ro.,_ A :. .• . .• 4 ~,. , . . •k x i 0 . at f , f - NP 11 If --..'5.. . . •! * --4., . „,..,........ •r w ili k pr . , 1 1 ' i 1 : — "'" --- ------.•:_—••-•—• • ... -•-- - —t - . 0 .. _ it; ~: • HU' 4 . 4 Z- I" re, I .‘:ifmrie.3 .9357._ PZUCE SEvEN-'Jx PARLMMENTIRr PROCERDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS. FEBRUARY 24, The Queensberry Appeals were heard Jusigeotent deferred. 'I he kora Assent was notified by Oirtmis-Ists to the E ac h. v er Ells Hi;!, and the Mea and trade 3.11. Ihe Committioners were :ice Lord Chanztl!er, the Earl a !haftediury, and Lo-d KediAdite. Mr. lohn,on mete: red the Annual Account of the London Pour Company, and Mr. Irving from the Customs, an Account a; Coal and Cohn imported into Wales. The latter was ordered yt to printed. Lord GROSVENOR warted a Petition from the Borough of Suuthwarb, praying for Reform and Retrenchment.—Ordered lie on the table. PLIBLIC DISTREM. The Earl of DARNLEY, Wore the Hence pre code - 1 , to the Order of the Day, wished to call their Lordships' attention for a few moments to a subject of considerable importance at this period of public c;stetts. At the commencement of the Session he r egretted that the Ministers of the Crown had not a dvised his Royal Highness the Prince Regent to oske some sacrifice as an offering to the wants of the country,.with the view of relieving, in some degree, ire rressure of the public expenditure, and he had intended to make tome motion upon the subject. Since that period his Royal Highness had been ad visod to sacrifice t 6 ,the public. exigencies a part of the sum ailotted for the maintenance of the splendour of his station, and this offer, so highly satislsctory to the country, has been followed by a • sacrifice on the past el a Noble Friend of his (the Marquis Camden) of the chief past of the emoluments of his office. He wished to know from some of the Noble Lords op posite, whether these examples had been followed by other instances of the sacrifice of emolument towards the relief of the public burdens ? He was convinced that nothing short of the greatest possible retrench ment and economy would now satisfy the public, and he was anxious to know what had been done by the holders of office. Lord ROLLE reminded the Noble Earl, that the example of his Royal Highness had been followed by all his Ministers. who had voluntarily given up d.e tenth of their incomes. Lord GREY did not think the country Had called on his Majesty's Ministers to make the sacrifice of a tenth" of their income, the voluntary tax which they had laid upon themselves, or did he think the cotm try ought to accept it. The country did not wish to reduce the salaries they had paid for efficient ser vices ; whit was asked -was that useless sinecures should be abolished. He trusted this sacrifice would yet be made-to the distresses of the people, and that Parliament would not be turned from demanding that measure by the circumstance of the efficient servants of the public, who were not too well paid, having voluntarily , imposed a tax on themselves, . toeDoit totton soeirev. Earl GROSVENOR rose to present a petition to their Lordthips, whichi_lit trotted, would not only out "...sod Wad meet with that serious coneferation to which, in hi:opinion, it was entitled& The petition was from the same percon from whom the petition brought up and rejected on Friday last was presented.—The petition was • then brought up and read. It was in substance nearly the same as that which we gave in our Paper of Saturday, except that it omitted the passages which were there objected to- It stated the time when. the Society was formed —the names of its founders, and asserted that it had never at any time any correspondence, verbal or written, with any branch or other Society whatsoever, antt thatfor.the last three years and a halt it had ceo4ed to set at all. . Lord 'HARROWBY defended die Report of the Benet Committee from the charge of inaccuracy ad dend it by Lord Grosvenor. He denied that the Report imputed to the L,ondost elem of holding, the Spencein doctrine ; the 'unit of the „Report did not warrant such a charge qv** the London Union, nor did the Committee intesdnimuld tlo so. - --r(Heer, hear.) . . . Lord GRENVILLE thought the earlint oppor tunity should be taken to acknowledge error if error existed, and it the Report had been **drawn np as to convey a wrong impression into the world, their Lord ships should lose no time 'in correcting that error. The Committee, certainly, bid not intended to say that the London Union were supporters of the Spen ceans; whether it be true that the London Union is dissolved, or that it exists, the Noble Lord said he knew not; but in the minutes of the Sheffield Union Society was found an entry that the purposes of the Vie (field Union were to correspond with the London Union, aqd other branch Societies, The Sheffield Union established in October last, declared its object to be to c orres p on d. w i t h th e L on d on U n i o n. Was ft then wonderful that the Committee should be led to suppose the London Union still continued, and still Continued to act ; and that the documents upon which the Committee made the assertion, were such as rens dcred that assertion well founded ? He was ready to acknowledge that no proof of correspondence between the London and Sheffield Union had been proved ; but at the same time he also felt bound to say, that in his opinion thete might be cooperation without correspondence. Earl GREY did nbt Mean to accuse the Commit tee of stating to the Hone any evidence which did not exist, or or drawing any infeteoce which, in their the evidence did not warrant; but he now said, as he said on a former night, that the House Aught jo be careful how they receive existent evi dence; much less ought the House to proceed to pass" laws on wise* evidence, which were, for the time, to suspend the liberties of the Subject:: What, he would ask, was the injury of which this eniticourrs had to complain ? No less than the having hupu ted to them, that they are united and corresponding l 'ith other Clubs, whme object was to overturn ..the Present Government. Was not this Secretary to the London Pylon very materially aggrieved ? And night he not to be allowed toitr x xElaine at the Bar of the House, what **me at moiety was I Now, when O , e House was about ia pass ti Bill byl which the H a beas C o rpus Ace wa s to . suspended, and by which persons corresponding with Societies, or Branch Societies, would be made liable to fine and imprisonment, and even to transportation. should not the Commicee have made further inquiry before they adopted the decision they had done ? The Com mittee should, in conunon caution, hate made in quiries as to the nature of the London Union. And it was the duty of the Secretary of State who laid these Papers before the Committee, to have made that investigation. The Noble Lord (Grenville) had acknowledged that there was n s correspondence proved. The petitioner now offered to prove, that the London Union had nt. existed fur the last three years, therefore there could not be any co operation between them and the Shedieid Society. Ile believed also he might state, that there was now a letter in the House. written by the Lord Mayor (whose con deer, on a I.' te occasion, proved that he was no friend of Clubs,- or enemy of the. Constitution) stating, that since the discussion on Friday evening, be and Mr. Alderman Goodbehere had examined the books of the Society, and chat they were ready to come for ward at thetas of the Hotise, and depose to the truth of all that . was stated in the Petition. Under these circumstances, he thought the petition should be received; and the Committee, if diss ,, lvekl, again appointed ; and the petition referred to theni for their examination ; and that till they had done so, the fur ther proceedings upon the Bill now before the House should be suspended. Unless this should be done,' he was convinced the country would not be satisfied of the necessity sf the important measure they were about to adopt. Lord LIVERPOOL wished to state why; al- 1 though be had not altered his opinion since this sub ject was before the House, he thought the present peti tion ought to be rec.ived. ,The Petition op Friday re ferred to a Report of a hich, the House contended, the Petitioner could have no legiainate knowledge. ,The present Petition did , not refer to that Report. The former Petition prayed against a measure which the - Petitioner supposed the House was about to adopt; 'the present was against a Bill now an pro gress, and therefore was regular. These reasons in duced him to be in favour of receiving the present Petition, though he opposed the former Petition. With respect to the Report, it stated the conspiracy' not to be its these Clubs and Societies, but in the l Meeting; of the 15th cf November and 2d of Decem ber, in Spa-fields, and that these Clubs, by their prin ciples, tended to forward this object ; that they all leaded to weaken the allegiance of the subject to the ' State, and to; destroy the ,bond between the governor and the governed. The Report did not,, however, impute to all of these Societies the same evil inten tions; on the contrary, the Report said, that whilst some of these Clubs adopted the dangerous principles of the Spencean Philanthropists, ,many of the mem bers of the other. Clubs Were actuated by the best thotiees. The Nub* Lord then proceeded to defend the Report as regarded the Landon Union, sad read an article of their regulations, which was the same as one of the articles of the Sheffield Society, recom mending Branch Societies. It was now said, that the London Union had not met for three years and a half ; why, it was obvirins to every one that this very Society had assembled within the last six weeks, though under auother title. On the 211 of January a meeting of Delegates, with the same Secretary, Mr. Cleary, and the same Chairman, Major Casrigist r. who were Chairman and *Secr etary to the t okon s to 1842, assembled for the purp ose of considering the same objects, anhual Parliaments .and universal suf frage—Vicar, Ayer.) The object .wets the same. the persons were the same, whether under the title of Union Of Hampden Clubs, namely, to disturb the , 4taqpßiey, and, if possible, to destroy the Govern- . eut'rirtys country; and that the grand central sta•o ties; Niee: which all the operations of the Branches sprung, was in Landon —(Hear, hear.) Lord HOLLAND said, the question was not •- now' whether clubs existed or not, Lut whether, after the Committee had reported upon ea parte evidence, they should examine , whether the evidence they had heard and decided upon wat true t He knew nothing about these clubs, whether their objects were good or bad. He siraa,ready to acknowledge the truth of all that had been stated, but at the same time he would ask their Lordships whether, to recon cile the people to the measure now proposed, it would not be'desirous also to convince them,. as far as pos sible. of the necessity of it He understood that the grounds on which, the Noble Lord opposed the re ception of the Petition on Friday night was, that it was contrary to a standing order of the House—a standing order, of the existence of which half their Lordships were ignorant. • Yet he understood now, wiken a lkw was about to be passed to suspend the Mule's of the people, the most important standing order of the House. which said. no Bill should be forwarded more than one stage irea day, was about to be dispensed with, and this most important Bill, was to be forwarded four stages in one day.' He trusted the House would not do this ; and that before they proceeded to commit this outrage on the Con stitution, they would instruct the Committee to ob tain and lay before them further information. Lord ERSKINE thought no two cases could, differ more than did the case at present and that in 1795. If be was asked what he would consent to suspend upon the infoematioo which he was now is, Possession of, he would say. be would suspend no tOing but his judgment—(llene, hear.) In 1795 there war t Ali organized system for the appointment of a Coneentivo'which was to assume ill the functions of . P ar ) tit Was such the case no*l certainly not. Ai preiebi there was eery of annual Parliaments and univeral Suffrage. Did this cry require the suspension of the 'Habeas Osiers Act ? There weisathe Spell' ceans—did they require the suspension of the Habeas Corpus ? No, they rather required the erection of a number of receptacles for inidinees Wither, • spool to the blasphemous libels which were phhiliPill . . • the law as it at present stood was sufficient to repress them. If their Lordships refused to hear evidence, they were doing what he was sure would, to say the% least, not give that sitisfaction which their decisioisi • sh ,, uld always give to the country--(11:34 hear.) The petition he had the honour and pleasure ot' pre senting from Glasgow, contained, he believed, the names of almost all the Societies in that city. Were their Lordships prepared to say that all these, twenty five thousand individuals, were patties to the conspi racy ? (Hear, hear, hear.) He implored, them to c..nsider, to hear all sides of the question, before they presumed to do what was contrary to the genius and spirit of the British Constitotion. Alive to the in terests of his county—alive to every thing where li berty, that best and dearest privilege, was concerned, lie implored them to beware of .precip!tation, and to remember what they owed 'to themselves, to their country, and to succeeding generations The Noble Lord concluded by expressing his hopes that their Lordships would allow evidence lobe beard. On the . questiin being pot for laying the Petition on the table, Lord GREY moved, us an amendMent, that the' Petition should be referred to a Committee formed of the same Lords who constituted the Secret Com mittee, who should consider thereof, and report to the Hoase.—Upon this amendment, The House divided, For the original Motion 74 For the Amendment o—Majority 51. When we were again adru.ried, the Clerk was reading a Petition from Mr. Huila., justifying himself and the Meeting of the 9.4 of December, and denying that there %vete any disaffected motives on the part of titeMeeting ; that they assembled for the purpose of petitioning legally for Parliamentary Reform, and had no connection whatever with the mob. The Petition further denied that the individuals who had ' been denominated Delegates from Ciubs were such, but they were persons deputed from the People ge. nerally, to forward and support the object of Parlia mentary Reform; that their Meeting was open, and persons connected with Newspapers were admitted, and all the proceedings of the Meeting were wade public. The Petitioner concluded by praying hr might be ailowed to attend at the Bar, and prove the allegations of his Petition. The Petition, after a few words ,from Lord HOL LANDS was ordered to he on the table. SUSPENSION oe THE HABEAS CORPUS ACT. Lord SIDMOUTH said, whatever difference of opinion there might be with respect to the present measure, or to others that might be pioposed, he was confident that they could not have read 'and reflected on the Report, without feeling the deepest regret.-- It had been twice complained of by the Noble Earl (Grosvenor), that the Report was presented unac companied by the'evidence on which it it was found ed ; but he was convinced that the Conimittee, so far from meeting with censure ',pan that account, would receive the approbation of the House. Tidi' intention of the Committee was. to pronounce con closions and results,rnot to afford information. The information on which they' proceeded to form those conclusions and results was, to a considerable extent, necessarily of a sectet nature. It would be imps'. sible to lay the whole before Parliament, without hazarding, in the greatest degree, the individuals upon whose information they rested, and would also be injurious to the proceedings themselves. — The documeats which they had properly abstained ifroor giving io the form of an Apperidirt; could not properly be heard. In the Report there were three prominent propositions:—First, the evidence left no doubt upon the Committee that a traitorous conspi racy was in existence.—Secondly, that it was not con. fowl to the capital, but extended generally through the country—and Thirdly, that some twitter procvi 'ions were necessary to protect' the Constitution. It WAS impossible to read this statement without feeling She utmost degree.of grief and shame that such facts should have occurred in this country, as to render such a statement necessary. Alter the glorious struggle through which we had passed, and at Km°. meat when the- country stood so high amongst the nations of the catch, it was grievous to think that a conspiracy should have been formed for the overthrow of our happy Constitution. For a long period of years, since the French Revolution, a malignant spirit had existed, which took advantage of all calamities, and even of the dispensations of Thom, Paravioascs, to excite discontent and insurrection. During the war it was busied in representing the de feats of the enemies as victories, and the splendid achievements of our own armies as defeats. Since 'the peace, a great degree of dilated had been felt ; upon that it took advantage of the distress of the country, and endeavoured to combine the physical ffirce. against the existing establishments. It repre sented the distress not as arising from the miscon duct of the Ministers of theday, but from the defects of the Constitution. Instead of saying that every effort was mide for their relief, it appli d itseif to avert and dissatisfy the minds of the people'; and in stead of inculcating upon them that nothing could be done by acts of 'violence, ,it endeavoured to enlist. them in the cause of revolution by the means alluded to in the Report. It had been made a matter of re proach against the Government, that they diJ not in stittite prosecutions against the printers and publishers of those seditious works; but he could assure the House that Government had not tailed in their duty. They had transmittedthese publications to the Law Officers, who were of opinion that it would be info nitely•more'clifficult to sustain prosecutions, in CON. 'sequels= of the artful manner in , which they were drawn up, than upon ,any farmer occasion. Many prosecutions, however, were now pending. Those 'seditious publications had been spread through the country in a number and to an extent that was sur prising. Many persist* in those Clubs, who had Przlianventary Reform in their months, bad revolt/. 2.z *air hearts, With respect to the adjourn - . *bait was the fact t The lint disturbance o f •• ' the•public peace took place on 'held of December, On that and all subsequent occas;ens preoarat ons bad been made adequate to the existing intentidn. ;Hit plan was first to employ the Civil Power, for he never would lend himself to the principle of sobso- tuting . the military, except in cases of the utmost no.- ' testify.- But he took ease th it the military should be so disposed through the town as t 3 be ready to give . their assistance wherever it was required.— The coaseqiience was, that the riot in the City was quelled in a few moments by a troop of Life Guards. It was net deemed advisable to institute prosecutions for high treason without the teroogest eroof of the'r necessity; they therefore proceeded agatnst the indi viduals upon inferior charges. Government was stated to have been informed of the conspiracy at thst time, but in such an opinion the Noble Lords were mistaken. The facts detail e d in the Report; which ,marked the atrocious design of the Meetings, didvict come to their knowledge until three weeks before tte Meeting of Parliament. Proceedings were still geirig on its furtherance 'of treasonable porposei, and the Committee bad expressed a decided opinion that fur ther measures were necessary to put them down. It was tot the wisdom of both Houses to consider what thole further measures should he. That whith first suggested Itself, was the necessity of affor.:ing addi tional protection to the Illustrious Person whose life was exposed to danger on the first day of the Senior. With this view it was proposed t,) revise the 86ih . of the King, which originated in similar circisma stances. A ..other object was to punish the attempts of persons endeavouring to seduce soldiers and seilots from their allegiance. It teas also necessary to bring the clubs within the provisions of the 59-. ft the King. in which the •London Corresponding and other Societies were put down by name. It was also pro posed to renew a 11.11, the salutary effects of which had been exr.erienced till 1805, for the prevention of seditious meetings and assemblies. It belonged to the Constitution to enlarge the powers of the Exe cutive in case of necessity ; and tie asked it now for the security of Parliament, and in the spii it in which the Habeas Corpus itrylf was passed, for the protec tion of the Cotstitution. He felt great satisfaction in stating. that the measure was not intended to et tend to Ireland, but it was right to meet the energy of the ill-disposed by a corresponding to.ergy in the Government. His Lordship conclit.led with moving, that the Bill fbr Suspending the Habeas Corpus Act should he read the second time. Marquis WELLESLEY:—h was unnecessary kr the Noble Secretary in, looking for an exact deserve than and portrait of the hostile machinations, and of the agents connected in these machinations, to look for resemblances in the acts rs of the French Revo than: There has prevailed for some time past a state and temper of the public mind, to which, without ap- pealing to his Latin or his English quotations, t 1 e Noble Secretary might have attributed the general dissatisfaction that pervades so great a portion of the people of this corrotry. He might have seen that it was the state of general distress, out of which has sprung a - general discontent, ihat, (as Lord Bacon say) furnishes the true and general matter 411 sedi. I tioni Can it be doubted, therefore, that such men exist, and have existed in all vs.:mks, who, adverse to the frame and establirliments of the Constitution under which they live, have availed themselves of the a ddi t i ona l I,.!ps that such distress and discontent have afforded, to prnteente 'Lek hostile views ? It tittle m ichinatirms,• acting upon the. general cala mity, were calculated to pr6duce real danger to tee , public tranquillity, and if these consequences can be satisfactorily established, then it were necessary to isr pose those restraints, which, though infringing the IL berties of the good, set re imposed justly, to contra vene the excrtifins, nt the evil. affected. This pm! - urinary Ones vaittut was demanded by an impression in same degree citculated, namely, that the proof of the necessity was not a justification of the in. fringeMent—(llear.) True British liberty has its base in public order.—Pex sit tranquilk litertas.— But although that principle was true, it was not on every allegation of public disturbance, it was not on every ebullition, even of a treasonable tendency, even though the branches of that treason spread far and deep, that the Parliament should be called upon to alter the existing laws of the laud. There should he before them a plain distinct case, founded on tible evidence,, in order that Parliament should be 'justified in doing that, which in ordinary citc,uro. stances would be a direct infringemenoraf the public freedom. He would go farther and contend, that unless the Ministers of the Crown could .prove un questionably that treason, if it exists, cannot•be re strained by the ordinary course of law, they are not warranted in demanding idle estention of extracwili nary powers. There remained lat one lather preli minary point, in respect of which every thing him delusion must be dispelled!, but the whole elucida tion, he feared, would require greater efforts, then under the state of his health 1 c was enabled to afford. It was, however, so imp: native to the just considera tion of the present question, that he would endeavour to explain fully the inipressi , n of his grind., Use Noble Secretary (Sidmouth) bad dwelt long on the prec dents of 1795 and 1801. In the former period he had the opportunity of being acquainted distinctly with the circumstances; of the latter he could only speak from report. But cl.is he would,contend, that though it could be shewn distinctly that the conspi racy of day was aliice Lis yearral character to that o f 1795—though the vll. ft acts were of the same com plexion and betrayed a similar object...-still, unless it was also sheen that the condition of the country in its rel diens foreign and.domeitic a ere s m tar—that the causes of therntschirsiewere the same, the reasoning in fiVour of similar measures of Goe- --- • be exercised now was, in his mind, wht In 1795 all• the mischiets against wl meet of the powers of the Crown mainly sprung from the "tench France the dangers were e'ppreheni machinations et agents fxdru that 1 . ! . . Gho7yerinnmeoenlictiutsioebire. which the ei)lorge. 3 Went to provsdw i , IZevolutio9 I from ended, at)d, to too counyi the cam& •