Star. — London, England, 1822-04-25 00:00:00

~--~1►"~ . • ' ":!!,•• z 9Prp EITE;CTS IN AID. - ~ "`. b r ewers had had it in contemplation to lower the price porter. He was informed, that in all parts of the , ' country a diminution in the price of beer had taken place. He wished some Honourable Member cow lotted with the-London Brewery was in his place, that be might ask if it were intended to keep the *rite of porter up to what it had been before the" malt duty was diminished, for if such should be the determination of die brewers, be, if supported by the Mouse, would endeavour to redeem the pledge be Sad given, and if he could not produce a reduction is the price of porter, he would at least try to pro- Itct the public revenue, so that the brewers should not enjoy exclusively that relief which had been in lendbl for the whole country. He hoped that he should hear in a few days from some of them, that Though tardk adopted,. the resolution was at length taken to make * seduction in the price of porter in the metropolis, proportionate to that which had been effected on malt liquor hi the countrp.. Mr. mow* considered the licemildt system com plained of to he injurious to the eerter, to the grower of corn, and avow tithe biewra themselves. He had no doubt that the monopoly made-theprice of the beer higher than it would otherwise. be, And conseqnentir caused less to be codsumekthan would be called for if its price were lower. If the• poor man had 20d. to spend in a week on porter, he could only purchase four -quarts with that sum. If its price were reduced be might buy five, and this would cause a larger demand for the produce of the farmer, and give a larger revenue to the Government. —The present licensing system appeared to him to row our of the misinterpretation of the Act of the t6th George 11. and that provision which was in tended to apply to a particular case has been made the general rule. Before that Act passed, the license had been granted to the man, and not to the house, and he had very serious doubts whether the practice now complained of did not grow out of that misap prehension which he had supposed. What was done by one brewer was obliged to be followed by others. The present system he thought injurious to all par ties, and conceived there was a very simple remedy for the evil. Let every brewer retain his own house, but let every man capable of giving security for the orderly conducting of a public-house, be enabled to take out a license and allowed to set up wherever he pleased, and recailheer as freely as a baker or grocer retailed the commodities in which they dealt. This would destroy no vested interest, but would leave the present amount of houses just as they were. The /Muse would be astonished to learn that, in the. County where he resided, the Magistrates, under the 26th of George 11. not only licensed houses, but took upon themselves to prohibit houses altogether. And why ? Because they induced drunkenness, and caused the poor to spend their money in drinking.— But would any man pretend to say that the evil could be prevented by such means? If the public houses were few, and the beer bad, could they wonder that the labourer gave up what was heretofore a wholesome British beverage, for that nasty, meagre, debilitating herb, tea ? Mr. GRENFELL rose merely to state that the evil complained of was not caused by the monopoly of free houses, as a sufficient number remained free to prevent such effects being produced by the mono poly complained of. Mr. LOCKHART spoke against the policy of con fining the number of public-houses ; where but one or two were found in a village, these became the scene of every sort of ribaldry—the focus of all that was objectionable. By increasing the number of public houses, though there might be more difficulty in col lecting the Revenue, and some danger of fraud, the morals of the People would not be deteriorated by the change, but, in his opinion, a contrary effect might be calculated upon. Mr. BENNET had long directed his attention to wards the means of supplying a remedy to the evil now brought under their consideratioa. He was quite sure that, by putting public-houses under the watchful controul of the Magistrates—by obtaining in the first instance proper securities, and in the nest inflicting proportionate punishments on bad public houses, the trade might be opened, so that beer might be sold like any other commodity. Mr. HUSKISSON desired, that what had fallen from him might not deter others from looking mi nutely into the subject, who might be more compe tent to bring forward an efficient remedy than he was. Seeing the Honourable Member for Weymouth was now in his place, he begged to remark to him it would afford great satisfaction if he were prepared to state at what period, in consequence of the re duced duty on malt, a diminution might be looked for in the price of porter. Mr. BUXTON said, it was difficult for him to state the precise time (for to do so might be injurious to certain parties) at which a reduction would take place in the price of porter; but this he would say, that the time at which it would be effected would be satisfactory to the Right Hon. Gentleman. With respect to the system touching licenses, he would say, that it was desirable, for the large brewers, that it should be revised; but he must remark, that at once to throw the trade open would be a confiscation of property not of property belonging to brewers, but publicans' property), which would be felt to be one of the-hardest measures ever adopted.--The Pe tition was read, and ordered to be printed. Mr. LYTTLETON presented a Petition from cer tain Bankers, Merchants, Manufacturers, and others of the counties of Worcester, Warwick, and Staf ford, to which he was anxious to call the particular attention of the House. The Petition complained of the injurious operation of Extents in Aid. The Hon. Member referred to a Report which had been for merly made by a Cornmiuee which sat upon the sub jest, to shew the nature of these processes, the par ties by whom, and the manner in which they ovally was sped out. The effects which these proceedings produced were most lamentable. The consequences of a common bankruptcy were iu general nothing, as compared with the consequences of an Extent in Aid, even if it was for &comparatively small sum. liad all confidence in trade, and prevented so visited from proceeding with any future , because.every one was afraid to give him credit, or to supply him with the raw ma necessary for his pursuits. No one would trust Ist they could have no confidence, and be certain bow long their dealings with J..., v.-- It dmroyed a person so , business, be 1 ' ordinary ere teriAls necen bun, becitus could never , • "',"m..‘111F:77,-"'"'•-•^11 . ' process,. CM. In a constitutional point. of view it was also objectionable. It gave an infidels:eta theTieasurf, over all species of property, which it never ought TO It was strange that such a system should rave 1 grown up in a free cotmtry,where the laws were so cautious and deliberate regarding transactions be tween debtor and creditor. For his own part he should have every con fi dence in the Law Officers of the Crown, if the subject was one which came under their especial care. But it was to the Treasury that he addressed himself, and he was quite certain that his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exche quer could not say that there existed any necessity for continuing the system of Extents in Aid. The Report to which he had alluded would supply- evi dence against its necessity from a very respectable Solicitor of Excise, who, being questioned as to the probability of the revenues of the Crown suffering by a disuse of those measures, answered, that he conceived they would be collected much better with out them. He then proceeded to give his reasons for ahinhing.so,which were, that the suing out of Extents in Chief, in the second instance, would come under his own direction. The Hon. Member concluded by lappealing to the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he valued the support and confidence of the Petitioners, and if he wished for the preser vation of loyalty among them, not to allow rapine and violence to be exercised under the sanction of the prerogative of the Crowns Mr. J. SMITH expressed his accordance with the sentiments of the Petitioners. He would ask whe ther it was proper that any practice should exist which put the whole property of the country at the mercy of the Crown? He hoped the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer would consider their case, and afford relief to 'those who suffered under the present system. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was very far from wishing to object to the Petition, and he was equally willing that the subject should re ceive, in and out of the House, every consideration. What pressed upon him, as being particularly opposed to any alteration in this process was, his extreme re luctance, as a servant of the Crown, to do anything which would touch upon its ancient prerogatives, so wisely settled upon it by our ancestors. If that prero gative had been, or should be abused, there was a remedy against the offenders in the Courts of Justice. Mr. W. SMITH thought that the process in ques tion was a prerogative vested in the Crown for the protection of the interests of the subject through the Crown. He had upon a former occasion obtained a Committee upon the subject, and no man could read the Report made by that Committee and not be con vinced that it was quite unnecessary to continue the law as it now stood for any purposes of security to the collection of the Revenue. The year before that Report was made there bad been 220 Extents in Aid issued, and in consequence of the proceedings in Par liament in the following year the number of cases sunk almost to nothing. They had since been in creasing, and in the last year they amounted to forty. Of these be would defy any person to say that there was one in which the interest of the Crown was in the remotest degree concerned. If something were not done by the Treasury he should again bring the subject before the House. Sir J. BOWIE expressed his hope that the matter of the Petition would receive the most serious consi deration of Parliament. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL wished to observe, that when he heard it said that Extents in Aid were not necessary to the-security of the Revenue, he must state, that such a conclusion was widely different from that drawn by persons who were best informed upon the subject. By such persons, the process in question was considered to be essential to its secure collection. There were no particular abuses pointed nut by the Petitioners, and therefore he could not see what they required. As far as he was concerned, if any species of abuse were pointed out, he should be most willing to assist in removing and remedying them, either by new laws, or by enforcing existing regulations. He should enter into no further dis cussion upon the present occasion, but if the question came before them in a regular shape, he should be prepared to meet it. Mr. HUME said, that if the exercise of the prero gative wat bad, its antiquity had nothing to do with it. He contended, that the use of Extents in Aid was unjust and unnecessary. They were not used in Scot land, and the Revenue of this country required no further protection than that of Scotland. Mr. P. MOORE supported the Petition. Mr. DENMAN said, that the system itself held out such an P- , xragement to abuse, that it ought b e ‘- down. There - ibi. to completely put s was no possit. lity of obtaining redress by representing any indivi dual cases of abuse ; the only remedy was to sweep away the whole system altogether. After a few further observations from Mr.W. SMITH, the Petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. HILL presented a similar Petition from the Iron-masters of the County of Salop.—The Petition was ordered to be printed. MR. HUNT. Petitions were presented from Salisbury, Norwich, Rothbury, Halifax, and another place, praying for a remission of the remainder of Mr. Hunts sentence. The Marquis of TICHFIELD presented a similar Petition from the Borough of Lynn. The Petitioners considered that Mr. Hunt was entitled to compensa tion for Ms sufferings, and they particularly dwelt upon the severity of his sentence. They also begged to remind the House that it had already renfitted pan of the sentence of one individual, alluding to the case of Sir Manasseh Lopez. Notwithstanding the .respect which he entertained for the opinion of his .e.onstitsaents, the Noble Lord declared that he did not agree in all theirAonclusions. He did not see • that his Maiesty's Ministers had acted improperly in re commending the prosecution of Mr. Hunt. Neither could, he believe the Jude: to have been actuated by any desire but that of giving an adequate punish ment in proportion to the offence of which the pri soner had been found guilty. At the same time, the punishment he bad received had been thought greater than was contemplated bythe sentence, mid he thOught that the two yaw+ imprisonmegh with the increased -; - . .~, ' ." • • had suffered consideratity him by his sentence, he thought the HomeDepart mentimperatively called upon for its interference. Mr. WYNN said, he did not wish t• anticipate the approaching discussion upon this topic, but be could not allow one of the allegations in the Petition to pass without its being immediately contradicted.-- That Howl did not interfere with the sentence'of Sir Manasseh Lopez. A motion was submitted for that purpose; bat if it had not been withdrawn, it was his firm belief that it would have been negatived. Mr. BENNET said, that the motion was certainly withdrawn, but that it was with an implied under standing that the case should receive the considera tion of Government. He knew this to be the case, because he was a party to the understanding. Mr. PEEL was present at the debate in question, and he never heard a word about any understanding or comprothise. He distinctly understood the reverse. Besides which, that was a case peculiar in its charac ter; and the very grounds upon which the inter ference of the House was recommended were, its having originated the proceedings against the indivi dual; and the offence having been committed•espe-' cially against it. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH was willing to allow that there was no assurance given on the part of Gl vernment that Sir M. Lopez should be liberated: that could not he the case. But as to the understanding., he would venture to say that there was not one Mem ber then present who did not feel that there was an intention of extending the Itoyil mercy to the indi vidual in que,tion. Mr. WYNN distinctly remembered that the mo tion was rejected, upon the ground of the impropriety of interfering ‘‘itli the prerogative of the Crown; and that it expressly stated that there was nothing implied, directly or indirectly, as to the remission of the sentence. Mr. BROUGHAM knew that an implied agree ment was expressly disavowed at the time ; but there' was not one single Member who left the House after what he heard upon that occasion, who retained the least vestige of doubt that the unfortunate individual would be released. It only requited that Ministers should pursue the same course that night which they did upon the former occasion, and he had no doubt but that his Honourable Friend, the Member for Westminster, would follow the example of his Noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) and withdraw his motion. The Marquis of TICHFIELD said, that from what payed, he considered that there was such an understanding as had been alluded to. And ai he and the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Wynn) were then on the same side, the authority of one was as good as that of the other. The words which fell from the Noble Marquis at the time were, as far as he could recollect, that he gave no positive assurance to the House, but that if the motion were withdrawn, he would undertake that the matter should be considered. The Right Honourable Gentleman had now changed his situation, and had much better means of informa tion than he; but he was quite sure that if the Noble Marquis (Londonderry) were present, he would bear him out in his statement of what had fallen from him at the time. Mr. WYNN expressed his surprise at the Noble Marquis seeming to consider that he was not at full liberty to state his opinions because a change had taken place in his position—(A laugh).—lie had stated what he remembered to have heard on the debate in question, and he possessed no other means of infor mation than those which were as common to the Noble Lord as to himself. The Marquis of TICHFIELD said, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had completely misunderstood him. All he said was, that he was as good an authority as to what passed upon the occasion alluded to as the Right Hon. Gentleman; because it was previous to his change, and they then sat on the same side. Mr. WYNN was at a loss to know what the Noble Lord meant by change—(A laugh).—lle had fre quently said that he was ready to defend every part of his conduct, and he only wished that the Noble Lcrd would give him an opportunity of doing so, instead of throwing out vague hints which could not be replied to—(Hear, hear, hear). Mr. DENMAN said, that the parties who were alone competent to speak to the existence of any im plied understanding, were, the Noble Marquis at the head of the Government, and the Noble Lord who brought forward the motion. The Noble Marquis was absent—(Lord John Russell entered the name at this moment),—but lie now saw a Noble Witness at the Bar, who could give them good evidence upon the disputed pointy—The Petition was then ordered to be printed. Upon the presentation of the Halifax Petition, • Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose and stated, that as he had so recently entered the Reuse, he could not be in possession of what had passed so perfectly as he could wish ; but he understood the question to be, whether an expectation was entertained that the liberation of Sir M. Lopez would be granted in con sequence of his withdrawing the motion which he thought proper to submit to the House. Now the impression upon his mind was, that his object had been very much furthered by the motion ; but he ' could not from his recollection say that anything fell from his Majesty's Ministers farther than •an as isurance that the motion should be no impediment to the consideration of the case in question—(//ear, hear).—Although he could only tecollect these words, yet the impression upon his mind when he left the House was, that the imprisonment of Sir M. Lopez would not be of long duration. LIBERATION OF MR. AUNT. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT then rose, and said that after the number of Petitions which had been presented to the House upon the subject on which he was about to address it, and in favour of the motion he was about to make, and after the able*manner in which they had been supported—one in particular, presented by a Noble Lord connected with a. part of the county of Nottingham—he felt considerable em barrassment, because that Noble Lord had taken and occupied those grounds upon which he was contented to rest his ease. Ile felt particular anxiety for the' fate of the present question, inasmuch as it deeply . affected the interests of the Public ) as well as those 01 _ who was the sulieet of it, met with a favobrable the Members of that Howe. His to obtain the liberation of Mr. Hunt from confinentient, because it was under circiun. .hich rendered it already adequate to th e intended by the Court which had sett_ him. Up to the present moment,, h e 4 4 trusted that Ministers would of themselves have taken the course which would have rendered h unnecessary for the House to be troubled with the question ; * tu t he confessed that he was somewhat surprised th at they had not availed themselves of the opportunity to advise an act which could be no less grateful to the feelings of histklajesty than it would he to those of the people at large. With regard to the supp er fur which he looked, he would oluerve, that although he was aware of the difficulty attending Ministerial trammels and Parliamentary tactics; )et, notwith. standing that difficulty, he trusted he shoald hare the able support of the Right Honourable Gent:emaa opposite (Mr. Nel). Upon that support he was tha more disposed to calculate, as on a recent occasion, when he had thought it necessary to represent ts, the Right Honourable Gentleman the cases of two re s . - sons who had been convicted for some offence corn. mitted in the North, and who had good charact er t . ) offer in mitigation of punishment, that Right limos-. able Gentleman had given the most powerfal as( humane attention to their cases, and had been the means of alleviating their situation. For this co s . duct of the Right lionourable Gentleman he had not thought it necessary to make any formal acknow ledgment, because he had considered it sure; flusa s to notice an act of humanity and integrity, which, in the life of the Right lion. Gentleman, could never he thought either conspicuous or extraordinary. To sustain the motion which he intended to lay before the House, he found that he was not compelle,! to impugn the sentence on Mr. Hunt. If he satisfied the House that the sentence itself was severe enough for the offence, and that the mode of carrying it into effect had been more severe than the Court which passed the sentence intended it to be, then he flat tered himself he should have the assistance of the Right Hon. Gentleman ; but, at all events, he thotight Mr. Hunt was entitled to the thanks of the Public, for having occasioned the investigation respecting Ilchester jail, the result of which was before the House in the Commissioners Report. In or -a at prove his first proposition, that the sent.• s. on Mr. Hunt was amply severe, it became n say for him to advert to the charges against Mt. Huns In the indictment against that gentleman there ':ere a great number of counts, containing charges from the highest degree of guilt to the lowest, and the Jury acquitted him of all the greater charges, ars! had, after five hours con-ide,ation, teturned a Yes diet against him upon the least of all. And here la could not but observe on the hardship attending the practice of prefet ring charges for the greater as tvll as for the lesser offences in one and the same itaii:o ment. The law in this respect might be, not toiaptly, compared to those acts of fishermen which were forbidden. The nets in question, he obsess - 0, were calculated to catch the large fish as well as e smallest fry ; and indictments of the nature ne 2:• hided to were a.species of net containing the lea - awl meshes ; so that when the legal net was thrsvoi over the unhappy defendant it was scarcely possible Is: him to escape. In one of the smaller meshes M-. Hunt had been caught: He bad been Intim] guilty on the count containing in point of enormity the least of the several charges; but if he bad been found guilty upon every count, he (Sir Francis) thought that a sentence of a year and a half of imp: isonment would amply have satisfied the justice of this case; the guilt was at the least of a lesser degree. Indeed, in point of mind and of intent, Mr. Hunt was inna cent of all clime ; and it was a legal maxim that to constitute a crime the mind must concur wi:h the act. The Magistrates of Manchester did not protest against the meeting for attending which Mr. Hunt had been convicted; although they had protested against one which had been advertised a few days befcre. Indeed, up to the present moment, he de clared he was at a loss to know is hat was the offence which Mr. Hunt had committed ; hut sshatever was the offence the sentence was quite sufficient to answer all the ends of justice. But, it this sentence was called for by the offence contained in the particular taunt on which Mr. Hunt had been convicted, he really should like to know what would be the necessary pu nishment if he had been convicted upon the whole of the indictment. The entire life of Mr. Hunt would not have furnished matter for punishment, unless in deed he were to live to the age of Metratsehda and unless the life of the Reverend Dr. Cou stun were prolonged to an equal extent to emits e him to be the visiting Magistrate of the prison—(Hear).— He should not go at length into matters which might be considered as in some degree extraneous ; and as the subject arising out of the Ilchester Jail would come before the House. in the shape of a specific motion. he should touch upon it very shortly. He would first call the attention of the House to what took place when the sentence upon Mr. Hunt was passed. Mr. Hunt, with great readiness of mind, asked if the im prisonment was intended to be solitary ? and the Judge answered, "By no means." Shortly after wards, it was stated, he believed in that House, that Ilchester Jail WAS the healthiest prison in England, and that it was upon such account that Mt. Hunt had been sent there. It was now proved, that it wai the most unhealthy and ill managed ; and it theta fore followed that the Court had not intended to send Mr. Hunt to such a prison. One of the Membersfss the County of Somerset had admitted that Mr. Hunt ought to have every indulgence consistent with ins sate custody. Now all the charges of severiiy, brought by Mr. Hunt against the jailer, had been proved; and as his punishment had been increased in sutfetance, it ought - to be lessened in duration. Mr. Hunt, a appeared, had been taken to a part of the jail callel the North Ward, wherein, for five months in the year, the sun Myer shone at all ; and when he Old shine lm:s rays were an annoyance, for local et: cutustances caused the light to be a reaming light, winch w as very distressing to the eyes. Air. Hunt's e) es had as (Sir Francis) understood suffered very mater lady front this -cause, and would never recover their former strength.. The place in which he was dirscly con fined was too large for a cell, and certainly too small for a room. When he first entered it there were two truck beds, and two prisoners in it, who were do tined to be his companions; And Quo of t h em was . • . him might be it Whereto miligent in 4 ll o . 4oft wipe* than equal tt_ tbatvto yearn and a the individual wh e of lowed upon the bleb of an aedlwary biutkruptay, the- 'half wit tulle should not, the More, tecommend lieved, • already the , ' eenvequencetwere still more depinetablu, for tt rubbed *of Mr. Hoot as a matter of favour, hut nl a m o ng so me of I ken tbe remaining erweitors of their last. shr of-kbti , ogle& He was ems Who would never intinfets with object was to ohti :on- bankrupt ' s property. These were the taw efects of the decisions of the Coasts of Justice, without the his present confine ice, the process, and its risen ] drifts WO* no less griev. most ob v i o us necessit y . As the p risouerin this cise statices which Tel . _.___, __:_...c ..:..- :. .... aisn had sufered considerably more than was awarded to punishment inten and had, h e b le reception Ilou•e. Ills r. Hunt fro m • ander circurn. mutate to th e hich had se tt _ neat,, he 44 Fes have take n it unnecessa r y luestion ; a n d iurprised th at oppettllnity tss grateful to id he to tho se o the supp er • that although : ng Ministerial )et, notwith. lotild hare th e de (iein:em mt In he svas th e cent occasion, •present tr. th e of two p er . offence corn,. d characte r t , ) Light llonou-. powerfal au.{ had been the For tl,is cm. an he had not rmal acknow_ it suret flurls 3 rity, which, j , :ould never be Ordinary. To before to el ;evere enough If tco° h m e laPy s e a lbe t i i e s f fi ; arrying it into e Court which , then he fin- I • sietance of the nts, he thunght