Star. — London, England, 1821-02-03 00:00:00

of this great body might, usefully to the Public h, r -- . done a way ith altogether: A BARING contended, that this was one of gr. • i b e most important subjects which Government could i9q ▪ . a i re into. The Bank of Ireland became in the - state dal i n operative Bank, if it did•not eeceive'deposits• cowl- N,, private Bank was obliged to receive (le -15, but the Banks of England and Ireland were. at a loss to know why the Bank of Ireland r eras fr i ine d to issue its paper upon deposits of the coin of Me ra• lm In every point of view , this was a sub- t ,„,• w hich greatly required being inquired into. H e, t " was n ot so very anxious to return entirely to cash pa yments; but, like the Member for Portarlington elr.Ricardo) he wished for a well-regulated paper car e : a i t ion. That would alleviate matert.illy the pressure t hat would arise from a sudden return to payments cas h. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer w ou Id inquii e into the conduct of the Bank of Ireland. Th e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, .l e veuld take the very earliest opportunity to do so; ' aad would communicate the result of his inquiries p eg House. Like the Hon. Gentleman, he had no pto ns• of what advantage it could be to the Bank of, Ireland to refuse deposits in coin. Mr. RICARDO said, that if the Bank of Ireland led received deposits in specie, and made larger is ; al oof their paper, the bullion would soon be at a pr emium. He knew that the large purchases made by the Hank of gold increased the price of that article ; greatly, as compared with silver; and he hoped that the present System would be made permanent, in order that there might be no fluctuation in the price ' o f g old, as it would gradually decrease if the present system were made permanent. NAVY. -TheHotise then went into a Committee of Supply. Sir G. WARRENDER said, that in the Navy Estimates there was a sum of £116,000 below those tithe last year. There was a diminution in seamen of 1,000, the Marines being the same as last year.— Thee was also a decrease in the price of provisions. lle then moved that 22,000 men be employed for the Sea service, including 8,000 Marines. Mr.CREEVEY saw no Estimate on the table, and, I t herefore, he would riot vote a single farthing of the public money ; but should move that die Chairman should repoit progress. Sir G. WARRENDER said the votes he had pro-, posed related merely to the fleet afloat; and it was we &cording to Pariiainentary usage to lay any Eitiii.a,e, except for the Civil List of the Navy. The whose system would remain behind to be discussed. Mr. s;REEVEY said it was high time this old rake w a got rid of, as he was of opinion that all ou defiau ties had arisen from voting money without Estimates. He, therefore, moved, that the Chairman should report progress and ask leave to sit again. Mr. HUME reprobated this reduction in the sea men, and recooimended a greater diminution in the number of marines. If it were necessary to man our imi.ease fleet,. it would be found almost impossible. He hoped there would be a reduction in the civil ser vice of the Navy, among the useless Lords of the Ad miralty and Commissioners at the Dock-yards. He concurred iii the Amendment. Sir G. WARRENDER said, that all the Naval Men in and out of the House thought it of the greatest service to increase the corps of Royal Marines. Mr. H..BENNETT thought it a very good ques tion to discuss the subject of Royal Marines when. they had the Estimates on the table; and until they were, he would not agree to vote the public money. He hoped the Public would inquire into the farces of these Committees of Supply : and he could tell the Right• Hon. Gentleman„that he should not have a farthing of the public money without an,Estimate, during.the Session, nor - without a division on each, if the Session lasted till October: The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, Estimates had never been usual as to the number of Seamen. Mr.-MARRIAT said, this Vote was required to victual and pay .the Seamen. Mr. BENNETT said, this was a Vote for the whole year, which he would not agree to ; but he would give a Vote for a month. Admiral HARVEY believed that it was a general opinion that there should be a greater proportion of old and seasoned Marines on the opening of a war. Sir G. COCKBUItN said, that at the beginning of last war they were obliged to take a numfer of sol diers, unaccustomed to the sea. service, which created confusion and jealousy. The marines half manned the ships before they could get seamen at the com mencement, of a war. Sir F. OMMANNEY thought that, if the marines I were employed in the Dock-yards instead of regular soldiers, there might be a considerable reduction in the Army. Mr. TREMAYNE hoped there would be a reduc ▪ tion in the Civil Establishment, in the Navy, in the Army, .Ordnance, &c. Sir-G. WARRENDER said, that when the Esti ' mates should be presented, he would have to propose considerable reductions in the Civil Establishment.— g Sailors could be obtained from the merchant service, bat marines required to be disciplined before an effi eientsfleet could be fitted out. hlr. HIIRST said, the marines bad, in all our naval Wars, distiagiiished themselves in a most particular manner. lie should vote for the proposed number, O relying, that Estimates would be produced. Mr. FORBES regretted that there was to be a re duction in the seamen ; while he hoped to see a re- Auction in the two Land Lords of the Admiralty. ✓ The seamen had been driven to starvation in the streets, or forced to America and other countries. Flu tommerce of thi s coun t r y was n o t w o r th fol d Sowing! No ship put to sea, but she returned at an C immense loss. • re Sir WARRENDER said, so far were the seal.' Illelanan being sent adrift to starve, that $5,000 men *tie made out at the end of the war. ▪ aIr.tiLADSTONE knew no difficulty in man; 'ling his ships; in his opinion there was no want of resnien, and the commerce had increased ; for now 0 rbe trade with the Brazils had sprung up, which was die second gt eate , t market for our commodities. Dr. LUSHINGION saw nothing on which they if UAW _moire to this vote, except on the statement of Paord 4* the Admiralty. This was a practice, in or4pliaota.,m34te. h..noured in.thetreach than the P b'e'ta :" L : o • asivau always say', `that nothing ever warrant impressment except a great and P Vn ligma necessity ; and he thought it the duty of • • .. • • the Government to find some other mode of manning our Navy, than breaking unfortunate being s from their wives, families, and natural employments. He way ' not enthusiastic enough to think that this practice• could be all at once got rid of; and that the Adviser of the Crown who would recommend the getting rid of such a plan, would do himself-immortal honour. Sir G. COCKBURN said they had endeavoured to amend this evil, by giving pensions to the men, in. order to secure their return to them in case of a war breaking out; but he believed that at the commence mement of a war they must have the power to take men by force, if wanted for a large armament. Mr.CREEVEY replied, and repeated that he could not understand the vote until he had an Estimate. The Committee then divided--For the Resolution, 56—Against it, 11—Majority, 55. The House divided on each Resolution. The Re solutions were all carried ; and the report of them ordered to be received on Monday. Mr. CREEVEY said, that while the Speaker was out, they had voted away £1,900,000, by 55 tMem • bens out of 655. He knew no more than the man in the moon what they had been voting upon. He was determined to try and make an alteration in these proceedings ; and if the People did not petition, they would deserve all they got. Mr. B. BATHU It sr said, this was not a new system of attack ; for about 20 years ago au Hon. Gentleman, now no more, and another who, he believed, was still living, had made this mode of attack their constant practice. Neither had the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Creevey) the merit of the invention of it. Mr. H. G. BENNETT here said, he thought it use .less to sit longer in so thin a House, an& moved that it should be counted when there being only 26 Members present, the House adjourned at ten o'clock. MEETING OF THE COUNTY OF SURREY. Yesterday, a Meeting of the Nobility, Gentry, Clergy, and Freeholders of the County of Surrey, was held at the Spread Eagle Inn, Epsom, pursuant to a Requisition to the limn SHERIFF, " to take into consideration the propriety of Petitioning the two Houses of Parliament to adopt such measures as will prevent all further proceedings against the QUERN, secure the Country against the revival of discussions injurious to the morals, and painful to the feelings of the People, and thereby enable the great Council of the Nation to attend to the various and important 'questions of foreign and domestic policy, which, in the present distressed state of the Country, urgently call for the immediate consideration of Parliament." The day was uncommonly fine, and before noon, horsemen, stage-coaches, post-chaises, and private car riages were entering the town in every direction. The High Sheriff, HUTCHES THOWER, Esq. ac companied by the Under Sheriff, arrived about twelve o'clock: soon after the doors were thrown open, and the Assembly-room, in which the Meeting should have been held, was filled in a moment. Among the company were—Lord KING, the Hon. GREY BENNETT, M.P. Lord STANLEY, Lord ELLEN BOROUGII, SIT W. DE CRESPIGNY, Itil.P. Mr. BAR CLAY, Mr. DENISON, M.P. Mr. M'DoNALD, Mr. HOLME SUMNER, M.P. Lord DUNCANNON, Lord ALTHORP, Sir TuommAs TURTON, Mr. SHARP, MABERLY, with many other persons of considera tion ; and there was not an individual present who was not a freeholder of the county. It was soon found that the room, although large, could contain but a small proportion of the persons assembled; and cries of " Adjourn, adjourn, the room is unsafe," arose from all quarters. The HIGH SHERIFF, after stating, with admirable good temper, the inconveniences which might result from an adjournment tote open air, such as the possible inclemency of the weather, and a probable failure of light before the business could be concluded, declared that he was at the command of the assembly. Adjournment was then unanimously agreed upon ; and three waggons were quickly drawn into the area immediately in front of the inn. Into these vehicles the principal speakers conveyed themselves; a num ber of carriages, filled and covered with company, were drawn up in a parallel line about 30 paces in front, and in the intermediate space appeared a com pact solid mass of individuals on foot and horse back, two-thirds of whom were freeholders, and at least five-sixths respectable well-dressed persons.— The windows of the houses on the three sides of the area were crowded with Ladies. The most admir able order pervaded every part of the Meeting ; and the general scene presented a 'coup-ded equal at all points, and in many superior, to anything ever wit nessed upon similar occasions. The Hum Su MUFF having read the Requisition upon which, as he said, the Meeting had been con vened, declined, by any lengthy address, to consume the time devoted to discussion. No doubt, many of the Gentlemen who had signed the Requisition would have matter to offer to the assembly, and from his situation, (the worthy Sheriff continued), it was rather his duty to hear the opinions of others than to make a public profession of his own—(Loud cheers). Whatever his private feelings might be as to the matters referred to in the Requisition, he had thought it an imperative duty to comply with the desire of the numerous and respectable body of Freeholdets by which he had been addressed; and he was too sensible of the importance of constitutional Meetings to be desirous of abusing his authority in attempting to prevent them—(Loud applause). In order, how ever, that such Meetings should be useful, nay, in order that they should not be mischievous, they must be conducted peaceably and with attention to order ; and he trusted that in his endeavours to that end he should meet, not only with the concurrence but with the Support of every man present—(" You shall, you shall.") The worthy Sheriff, after recommending moderation to speakers on either site, and advising that each side should grant the same liberty of speech to his fellow which under similar circumstances be would be inclined to claim for himself, read the fol lowing letter fiom a Noble Lord unable to attend CLawoott, Jas. 51, 1831. " My %Uzi& Sta—An asthma, of many years' standing, and particularly distressing to me at this season of the year, pre cludes a possibility,of my attending a Public Meeting, or en countering anything in the shape of a crowd. Under the pres sure of this malady, I have never been once at a Debate in the House of Lords since I have been a Member of that Assembly. Tnis is the first topic of political controversy that has roused me into sufficient energy to be desirous of emerging from that re tirement to which my indisposition has subjected gnu ' At the present juncatre, I severely regret my incapacity to state in per son to my brother freeholders my views (which, I Mat, will be tend to wind& with a tame majority of the Meeting) of the great question which has solely alaorbed the attention of the Public, and convulses the whole Empire from one extremity to the other. The unhappy proceedings to which I allude have called forth simultaneous declarations in various districts in the Kingdom; and I am glad to be resident in one which has thought fit. to take these in,aters into consideration. I truly la ment my inability to lend my feeble assistance in promoting the objects stated in the Requisition ; entertaining at the same time a confident expectation that the cause will not suffer by my ab sence; and that there are many who will ably state their opi nions on the great questions which so deeply interest the country in this crisis of its affairs.—l am, dear Sir, faithfully yours " To the High Sheriff of Surrey. " oNsr.co:v. - The HIGH SHERIFF concluded, by reminding the Meeting that, by adjourning to the open air, they had placed themselves within the limit of a late Act of Parliament, to which, however, he was certain them would be no necessity to recur. Lord KING said, he was one of the Freeholders upon whose requisition the Meeting had been called, and he came, in company with those Freeholders, at a time when distress and difficulty deeply agitated the country, to discharge a duty which he owed to the Public, by declaiing his opinion upon two ques tions of importance.. The first question which it would be the duty of that Meeting to consider was, the severe distress under which the country laboured ; the second, the unexampled injustice which had been, and was still exercised towards the Queen. It was the misfortune of the Noble Lord, and of the Meet ing, to live in times of great difficulty, in times which called for great sacrifices on the part of the People, and which ought to be met by equal sacri fices on the part of the Government. The sacrifices of the People had set a noble example; how that ex ample had been followed by the Government, a brief retrospect would enable the assembly to decide.— Every attempt to get rid of a useless Officer, whether it were a young Lord of the Admiralty doing duty in the House of Commons, or a Scotch Baron doing no duty at all; or a War Secretary taking a salary in time of peace; every such attempt had been re sisted by Ministers; and resisted for this plain rea son—that reduction of expenditure was reduction of their patronage. Mr. TROTTIUIt submitted to the High Sheriff, whe ther any part of the Noble Lord's speech applied to the matters contained in the Requisition ? (Clamour, and cries of Go on, go on!). The HIGII SHERIFF, to prevent future interrup tion, would lay down, at once, the principle upon which, as he thought, the Meeting ought to be con ducted. He thought that in the proceedings of the Meeting, the addresses of speakers, as well as the Resolutions proposed, ought to he characterized by the spirit, rather than limited to the letter, of the Re quisition—( Universal applause). Lord KING contended, that he had been perfectly in order. He repeated, that Ministers opposed the reduction of every useless office; and he would far ther add, that they had, only last year, voted to the King a Civil List of amount three times greater than ever had been granted to his Majesty George H. He had said that the present times were times of painful, of extraordinary distress. Had those distresses been honestly, fully, and fairly met by the Government of the Country? They had not been so met; and for this cause—honest investigation must lead to eco nomy ; economy alone, joined to a government of kindness and conciliation, not of abuse and of coer cion, could relieve and save the nation ; bat economy and conciliation were equally (by Ministers) detested and evaded. What had Ministers done to benefit the country ? How had they been employing their time? In collecting that mass of evidence with which the country had been disgusted —( Cheers ).—ln giving up (the Noble Lord verily believed) their own opi nions, in order to keep the places which they were so ill qualified to fill—(Shouts of applause).—The Fo reign Secretary had been busied, and the secret ser vice money, according to the confession of that Se cretary himself, expended, in procuring the unbiassed testimony of Italian witnesses ?—( Loud Cheers.) — It had been better that the attention of that Minister had been devoted to the affairs of the Continent—to a mediation between ( Naples and the Powers that were attempting to oppress her. Time had been when England would not have viewed with indifference the oppression of a People who were seeking to amend their Constitution ; but those times were prior to the existence of a Holy Alliance, affecting to main tain peace and order in Europe; but, in reality, meant to repress and prevent every attempt at provement. Bet the time of the Meeting was pre cious, and the Noble Lord would now come to the second question—the treatment of the Queen. The Country had been told, and the Meeting would pro bably be told by one of their Representatives (Mr. Holme Sumner), that ,discussion was unnecessary, be ' cause Ministers had already avowed their intention that no further proceedings should be taken against C her Majesty. True; further proceedings were found I rather inexpedient, and therefore measures of punish iment only were to be resorted to. The Noble Lord said, " measures of punishment !" The exclusion of her Majesty's name from the Liturgy was a punish ment ; and this was the course taken by the Gentle men who said that her Majesty was " technically" innocent ; meaning, the Noble Lord supposed, that she was really guilty. But until law found her ( guilty, law declared her innocent; that was the language of the law of England, though not, perhaps, the language of the Court of England. The very last act of the House of Commons, with respect to the Queen, was worthy the attention of the Meeting. Excluding her name from the Liturgy, they voted £50,000 a-year for her allowance! How did her Majesty act? She refused the grant under such circumstances offered to her. She said, "I will not take £50,000 a-year, unless you do that which is due to my reputation and to my honour." She re fused these grants as she refused the bribe at St. Omer's ; and she deserved the support of the country for her spirit—(Cries of " She has it").--in conclusion the Noble Lord would remind the Meeting, that so long as this unhappy subject occupied the attention of Parliament, so long the business of the country must be neglected. The question could never be ended but by the restoration of the Queen to her, rights and privileges. The voice of the People was decidedly in her favour; and that voice, if-expressed moderately, firmly, and Constitutionally, must at last be heard. The Noble Lord, after thanking the as sembly, amid loud huzzas, for their attention, and expressing a hope that a Meeting so truly respectable would• not, like the Hampshire Meeting, be designated "a farce," ended by moving a series of Resolutions. Mr. Evat.Yu seconded the motion. Mr. Taorrra thought that the speech of the Noble Lord (King) had been altogether irrelevant. The guilt or innocence of the Queen was not a ques tion for the Mee.iag—(Laughter). The Hon. Gen tleman concluded an Address, which was almost inaudible, through the 'ills approbation with which it was received, by moving, as an Amendment, that this Meeting do now adjourn. Lord ELLIENBORouGH was a stranger to the Meet ing, and likely, he feared, to differ an opinion from most of the persons who composed it: he .would, however honestly and publicly, dissent from their Resolutions, and not at a distance, and in secret, pro test against them. From the character of, the indi viduals whom he was addre;sing, his Lordship anti- cipated silence, if not attention, to whatever Senti ments he might express. Whatever might be said as to the necessity of Parliamentary Reform, it was well known to the country, that, where the mass of the People firmly expressed an opinion, that opinion was heard and attended to by the Legidature--(Cries of No, no!) No person present more fully appreciated than he did the distresses of the country ; no one was more anxious that Parliament should give to those distresses, and to the means of relieving them, a full, free, and undivided attention—(Hear,hear). 13* he put it fairly to the,Meeting, whether they could hope, by the Resolutions they had proposed, to direct the attention of Parliament to that most desirable ob- ject?—(Yes.) Many, indee4, had been the causes assigned for the national distress, and many the re medies proposed for its alleviation ; but he had never before heard that the Queen's name being out of the Liturgy had produced that distress, nor that the rer placing of her name there would be a probable means of !moving it!—(Hissing and laughter.) It was by arguments, and not by noise, that he (the Noble Lord) must be put down. Were there any Farmers . . present? —(Cries of Yes!) Then, would the Finning the Queen's name into the Liturgy enable them to pay their rents?—(Cries of Nonsense!) Were there any Manufacturers in the assembly ?—( Yes!) Would the putting the Queen's name in the Liturgy enable them to increase their trade?—(Loud disapprobation). The HIGH SHERIFF entreated silence. Lord ELLENBOROUGH proceeded.—Was it legal or illegal to exclude her Majesty's name from the Li turgy?—(lllegall).—lf so, was the present moment peculiarly well calculated for the discussion of a dry point of law ; or would the opinion of the Meeting have any weight with the Legislature ?—( Hisses). If, on the other hand, the exclusion were legal, then the insertion was a matter of favour. All he asked was, that the King should be treated as any private ' Gentleman might claim to be treated ; and no Gen tleman, under such circumstances, would endure to be called upon for an act of favour—(Cries of " An act of justice!").—lf any doubt remained as to the real object of the Resolutions now proposed to the Meeting, it was removed by the speech of the Noble Lord (King) who addressed them in the outset. They all knew that his Majesty's Ministers had advised the omission of her Majesty's name from the Liturgy, and also that they had declared that they could not consistently with their duty advise the restoration of that name, and it was known therefore that the re insertion of the name would be attended with the loss of their places—( Hear, hear! and some disapprobation. A person in the crowd—" That's coming to the point!"). Lot d Ellenborough continued :—A Gentleman had said that was conning to the point. He believed it was coming to the point : it was a point which would be most desirable to many who heard him, and he thought that nothing would conduce more to the gratification of numbers in the Meeting than a change of Ministers, without any regard whatever to the in terests of the Queen—( Hear ! and disapprobation. A Gentleman called out" Truth !").—Lord Ellenborough replied, " You shall have it, Sir, and in strong terms too."—lf this, then, as he believed it to be, was the object of the Gentlemen who were instrumental in getting forward this Meeting, why not come to it in a brave and manly manner, and call a Meeting for an impeachment of Ministers at once a He had no doubt that their worthy High Sheriff would have no objection to call a Meeting, if a proper Requi sition were sent to him; and he was convinced that he would, on that and every occasion, act with the same strictness and honourable impartiality which he evinced on the present occasion —(Hear, hear), His great objection to the present mode of proceed ing was, that instead of going on to the question in a fair and manly manner, the same effect was endea• voured to he produced by a side wind, lf, however, the sense of the County should be against the opi nions which he held on this subject, and that the Re solutions should be agreed to, and a Petition founded on them be presented to the Houses of Parliament, he would, in his place, bear testimony to the great respectability and most orderly conduct of the Meet ing, and to the patient attention which they gave to every individual who presented himself; and that, whatever might have been the case in other places, this Meeting was not a farce ; on the contrary, that it was a fair repre.ientation of the county. The Hon. H. G. BENNETT next addressed the Meeting. lie was gratified at finding a Meeting so respectable and orderly as the present, and he should have been disappointed at finding it otherwise, for he did not know that there existed in any part of the country a more honest, independent, and sound hearted set of men than the Freeholders of the County of Surrey. The Noble Lord (Ellenborough) had said that the proposed Resolutions would not have effect. He differed from the Noble Lord on this point. lie thought the sentiments of the County would have effect, and though their Petition might be laughed at by the House of Commons, cr treated by them with neglect for the present, yet he hoped to see the day when a different system would be pur sued—when a system which flourished by the plun der and oppression of the people would be no longer continued—(Hear.) The Noble Lord had asked what good could a Petition founded upon the present Reso lutions effect? He would say, that, if at all attended to, it would bring the Ministers into contempt (hear); and even on this account he would support it, be cause be thought their conduct merited the mai Led censure of the People. But, said the Noble Lord, would such a series of Resolutions bring about better . times? He would say that they were calculated to do so, if attended to. They implied a gross mis management and misdirection on the part of his Ma jesty's Ministers, under whom, as he toetethied, the whole system was defective ; and if this opinion were received, a better system would be adopted—t%e •