Star. — London, England, 1822-03-21 00:00:00

be granttzd for the use of Troops on board the transports or hi garrison. Mr. HUIIITs wished to have the sum far each specified. The Resolution was agreed to. The sum of £2211,000 was then voted to defray the expense of the Transport Service. ARMY ESTIMATES. Lord PALMERSTON rose to move the remainder of the Army Estimates. It was his intention to have commenced with the Paymaster-General's depart ment; but as his Right Hon. Friend (Sir C. Long) was not present, he would move the vote relative to the War Office, which was next in order. He had made a very considerable reduction in the office since last year—a reduction to the amount of about 80001. This saving was effected by the removal of 16 per sons. On the first view the saving did not appear so large as it really was. This was caused by the cir cumstance of the sum of 9001. for fees having been counted twice in the estimates of last year, and, in consequence, the reduction appeared to be less than he had stated, to that extent. There was, however, n diminution to the amount which he had stated.— He had reduced one salary of 1,200!. one of 10031. two of 8001. two of 7001. two of 5001. two of 400/. and several others of smaller amount. Comparing the present estimate with that of 1814, there was a diminution of 18,0001. There was still, it was true, a considerable number of persons in the office who were employed on the arrear accounts, and whenever tho,e accounts were brought to a close, a still greater reduction would take place. He might as well state to the Committee, that in pursuance of directions which had been received from the Treasury, a new scale of salaries had been adopted, which, when brought into perfect operation, would ensure a saving, as com pared with the last .year, of from 18,0001. to 19,0001. —The difference between the new scale, and that at present acted on, would not strike persons at first, as likely to produce any great saving; but it would, in tact, produce most beneficial consequences. The scale by v,hich salaries were now regulated in the War Office, was on the same footing with that which pre vailed in all the other public offices. Individuals dated their period of service, as entitling them to an increase of salary, from the time at which they first entered the Office. But, by the new scale, the in crease of salary would depend on their standing in the particular C:2Si to which they immediately be longe,l. This would retard, in a very considerable degree, the period at which any individual could ar rive at a great amount of salary. According to this sca!e, nu person could attain a salary of 8004 a year until he had been 45 years in the Office. Supposing him to go on receiving an increase of salary every year, and having arrived at the maximum of one class, to proceed to the next, it would take him forty five years of service before he could arrive at a salary of 8001. per annum. His Lordship concluded by raoving for the sum of 43,185/. to defray the expenses of the Secretary at War's department for 1822. Mr. IIUME remarked, that he could only make out a reduction of 7,0001. in this establishment, at the same time that he observed there were additional pen sions to the amount of 4,950/. When the Noble Lord spoke of a reduction of 18,0001. since the year 1814, be ought to state tcrthe Committee the number of pensions recently granted,wl) ich amounted to 17,9101. The superannuation system was carried, in the office of the Secretary at War, to a greater extent than it bad reached in any office under Government. In 1798 the whole establishment stood the country in 16,0001. whereas it was now upwards of 43,0001. — With respect to the arrear accounts, he was quite satisfied that the establishment of clerks which was kept up to inspect them was of no utility whatever. These accounts had been left in a state of confusion, until all who could give any information about them were dead and gone : and yet the department for in specting such accounts had cost the Public from 130 to 140,0001. in the course of the last twenty years.— He was prepared to spew that no office under Go vernment required a different arrangement more de cidedly than that of the Noble Lord. No person, however, could interfere with the Noble Lord in checking or controuling the system. There was one singularity in the office to which he would call the attention of the Committee. There was a Secretary at War with 2,4801. a-year, and a Deputy who re ceived 2,500 i. a-year ! Why had the Deputy more than the principal? The first clerk received 1,4001. 1 a-year, although in 1796 his salary was but 7221. The Coin nil isioners of Military Inquiry, when examining the state of the War Office, deliberately gave their opi nion, "that the additions to the salaries of the prin cipal clerks were made under particular circumstances, and were, in general, to be considered as temporary." It was quite evident that these very high salaries were intended as a reward for great etertions in the time of war, and they ought therefore to cease when hostile operations were no longer carried on. He had expected that the Noble Lord would lay before the House the scale to which he had alluded, of the merits of which they could not judge until they had an opportunity of examining it.- 1-le would now ad. vert to some circumstances connected with the ex travagance of the office. Mr. Brown had been al lowed to act as Commissary for a short time, and from that department he had retired with 2761. a-year. He bad 1,2001. a-year as clerk ; but all that was not enough ; 3001. a-year were added as cies k to the fund for Chaplains, &c. It was extraordinary, too, that each of those der ks had 74 15s. sd. allowed him for newspapers. Mr. Richard Brown was thus in re ceipt of 1,9261. a-year altogether. If he was incor. re,:t in any of these statements, the Noble Lord was to blame, for detailed accounts ought to have been laid befoie the House. He did not admit that the House was to look only at the aggregate amount of money. There was a Mr. Edward Marshall, who' had 7001. a-year, and received besides 150/. for pre paring Estimates to be laid before the House. Now he was overpaid as clerk, if he was able to spare time to make up the Estimates. A Mr. Wilkinson had been eighteen years in the office, and received 4501. a-year. For assisting in making up the Estimates he received 1001. for regulatinis the Army List 1001. and for preparing Lists of Militia and Yeomanry 1001. He had, besides, some other employment connected with the Army List, and appeared altogether in six different capacities. This plan was all of the Noble Lord's creation. A Mr. Merry had been eleven years • clerk, with a salary of 250/. he was, besides, Pri vate Secretary to the Assistant-Secretary. The whole city of the department might be done by fifteen pert • .its, and for 15,0001. Contingencies were stated at 1.,24'4. Last year the Noble Lord had stated that ~-^~ "s!'w'ff7 ' 'nbt one senior dab could be spared ; yet what had be done? He bad tensed oat five or sic senior clerks, land if half a dozen attire were tarried oat, the busi ness could be done as well as now. Mr. Sullivie had been ten years in the office, and he received. 1,0001. Now had he, by seniority or otherwise, ac quired such a salary? But it was more: a person having 1,2001. a year had been reduced, and Mr. 'Sullivan had his salary increased to 1,2001. a year. This was Ministerial economy. He wished the Noble Lord to say how many young men had been lately received into the office? During the last two years, and since the pretended economy had commenced', eight or nine young men had been received. The half-pay wa s 17,4171 The changes which the Noble Lord had made, did not, in short, promote economy or the public service. Lord PALMERSTON said, the Hon. Member gave very little encouragement to reduction, when he treated reductions that had been made in such a manner. He (Lord Palmerston) had last year stated the inconvenience of dismissing senior clerks and when, in obedience to the orders of the Government, _ _ he had dismissed some, the Hon. Member turned that as a charge againsthim. With an inconsistency peculiar to himself, the Hon. Member turned round, and charged as a fault the very act which he had for merly urged to be done. Young men were said to have been introduced. That was precisely the mode in which reduction had been effected. Persons receiving high salaries had been reduced, and others had been appointed at 901. and not so many in number. This was a reduction from salaries. of 10001. 8001. and 7001. a-year, to salaries of 901. and fewer, too, in, number. L et. this be compared with 1797. Then the clerks had been few, and in receipt of high sala ries. Now it was the reverse. The D.:puty's -salary was fixed at 20001. in future. The person who now held that situation had no extra allowance. When, he had been chief examiner of Army accounts, be had received 15001. a-year. He had also he'd the', office of supplying garrisons abroad, by which he had been making a 'early saving of 9001: He thus gave up 2400/. and received only 25001. Where the Hon. Gentleman obtained his information, Fe did not nor did he wish to know; but his informer could haie given him better information. It was impossible to arrange the business better for the public service, or fur any clerks to work harder. Since 1810, not fewer than twenty-six clerks had died of pulmonary complaints, and disorders arising from sedentary ha bits. The lion. Gentleman was quite mistaken in sup posing that there was an allowance for publishing the monthly Army List. The Hon. Gentleman . did not understand the difference between yearly and monthly lists, and here again it appeared what a precious assistant he would have in the Hon. Mem ber—(A lough on the Ministerial side).--The annual list could not be published, except at a loss. The Hon. Gentleman had also proposed an establishment of 15 persons at 15,0001. and this was what he would call economy. The names of Clerks had been so commingled by the Hon. Gentleman, that each case could not be answered. Hi> private Secretary re ceived no more than his services merited ; and others who assisted in the laborious duty of arranging and managing accounts were in a similar situation. The routine of office and the manipulation of his (Lord Palmerston's) papers, could not be performed with out such allowances as were given. Mr. Sulliv .n he had appointed at once, instead of a former Clerk who had retired. With respect to his services, though, he (Lord Palmerston) might be partial to him, the more he inquired, the more reason he found to be lieve that he had acted rightly in this appointment.— He only received 10001. But prospectively the sa- 1 Lary was fixed at 12001. The Hon. Gentleman asked how many young men had been introduced in the last year ? He (L o t d Palmerston) had appointed six temporary clerks last year, with a distinct under standing that no retired allowances were to be given. The Noble Lord then went into a comparison of the I present expense of the department, with the charge , which had been made upon it in former }ems. In the year 1806, the vote had been 56,0001. and the num ber of persons employed 105 ; in the present year, 106 persons were employed, and the vote was 44,0001. only. It was evident, therefore, that between 1806 and 1822, a considerable reduction in salaries must have taken place. The period of 1792 had been ad verted to; but let the amount of duty done in that year be looked at. In 1792, the number of papers sent out of the Office was 7200, and twenty-one persons were employed. In the last year the number of papers sent out had been 99,722, and the number of persons employed 132 ; so that if the persons employed had increased in number five or six-fold, the quantity of business done had increased in a much larger degree. Colonel DAVIES was glad to see that economy had been practised ; but believed Ministers had been been driven into it. Mr. HUMS 'fook the opportunity of stating, whilst Honourable Members opposite were charging Mem bers on his side of the House with mistakes, that it would very soon appear, by a paper that was on the table of the House, that the blunder charged upon him relative to the Navy Estimates was altogether unfounded. He assured the House that it would soon be seen that the mistake of which he had been accused, to the amount of seven millions, was no mistake at all; as a return was then upon the table which had extracted the sums in the same way as he had done, and arrived at the same total. With re gard to the increase of salary to Mr. Sullivan's office, he had only to say, that if it was made in consequence of the merits of that individual, it was he who ought to receive the benefit of it, and not his successor. Lord PALMERSTON could not help observing on the extraordinary course followed by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume). In the first place, he (Lord Palmerston) had to set him right as to his blunders about the Army List ; next, he spoke of an increase of salary to a clerk in his office, and took occasion to insinuate that the augmentation was made bccause the individual was a relation of his own. He (Lord Palmerston) took the pains-to relieve him from his error, here, by stating that that individual re ceived no increase of salary whatever. The Hon. Gen tleman upon this got up and told them, that this in dividual, if he did not receive an increase of salary, ought to receive it—(Hear, hear).—With all dete- , 1 tence to the Hun . Member, he must say that it was waste of time to listen to such speeches—(Hear.) 1 Mr. BENNET contended that his Honourable Friend (Mr. Hume) was not open to any chatge of inconsistency. - Mr. Sit Mtn 'tad explained tIP; clerk a and .then havins' ri • retiriej,pension from I,oid PALMERSTif /es Linable t, affirm or cqntratdict the guarded which had been „made Waded to the individual in question, It it must have °centred long before he (Lord Palmerston) came into the Office. - He only knew that he held a commission in the Commissariat, and also that he was Private Secretary to General Fitepatrick, and received half-pay. —The question was put and carried. The next vote was for 26,9531. for the Army Pay Office. Colonel DAVIES thought the office of Paymaster- General might very well be dispensed with ; but as he did not expect to be 'able to persuade the Com mittee of this; he would direct himself to the present high expenditure of the department. In 1797, the amount of salaries was 11,8401. in 1822, the charge was upwards of 26,0001. when the extent of the Army was not to be compared with what it was in the fir mer period. The salaries now amounted to 19,0001. and this, it was to be remembered, was for an office which was ministerial, and the duties of which might be performed by the Bank of England, with out the present office at all. He should not himself propose any amendment, but he would support one made by any other person. sir - C. LONG laid, there was no office in the State which had undergone so much revision as this. It had been subjected to the consideration of a Committee , in 1791, 1797, 1807, 1811, and 1817; and of all these, he would, venture to say, that not one of these Com mittees ever said the office was useless. Yet the Hon. Member came down and said that all these Com mittees .were wrong. The Hon. Gentleman talked without knowing anything about the matter, super ficially, not to say ignorantly,, when he called this office a ministerial office. During the time that he hid been in the situation he had done all in his power to reduce the charge of the department, - and when the Hon. Member talked of its having undergone no revision, he must beg him to look at the progressive diminution of charge of late years : In 1816 it was 243,000 In 1820 it was 229,400 1817 • 34,000 1821 28,800 1818 29,000 1822 26,353 1819 30,000 Thus, for the list six years, it had been suffering a gradual reduction—(Hear, hear). When he first went into his situation there was much business in arrear ; noy there was none, everything being before the au ditors up to the latest period. He defied the Hon. Member to do the business with a less number of clerks than he (Sir C. Long) had. He had reduced many, and was ready to reduce more whenever it was apparent that it could be done consistently. He knew that Hon. Gentlemen opposite cried out against the weight of reduction falling upon the juniors alone, the senior clerks remaining untouched. Now it so happened that he had diminished the salaries of all the upper clerks in his office. He assured the Com mittee that he had done all that was possible to re duce the establishment as low as possible, consistently with the public welfare ; but he did not mean to say that he expected to satisfy thg Honourable Gentleman opposite—(Hear, hear). Mr. HUME declared himself unable to see where the great reductions had been made. It was true there was a diminution of charge of 1,9081. But there were offices with salaries from 1,8001. to 8001 a-year, and therefore as the higher clerks were only reduced, such a saving was inconsiderable The Pay Office, as it was called, paid no money. A person might carry in his pocket all the money paid by that department. They met the demand upon them with a check. The Right Hon. Member (Sir C. Long) found fault with the term ministerial, used by his gal lant Friend (Colonel Davies) ; but he (Mr. Hume) had only to refer to the Reports of the Finance Commit tees, and he there saw, that in these Reports the office was styled a ministerial office, with no controul over the public expenditure. He was ready to admit that it was much better ordered since the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir C. Long) presided over its adminis tration. The various operations through which an applicant for payment had to pass, certainly rendered it necessary to have a number of clerks. But one active person at the Bank, conversant with Powers of At torney, would discharge the whole business. With respect to the prize-money and pensions at Chelsea Hospital, that had nothing to do with the Pay Office. The Right Hon. Gentleman was, he was aware, very diligent in his attendance, but he sat there not as the Paymaster-General, but as the Member of a Board. He wished to know whether the simplifying of the public accounts was to extend to any other office but the Treasury ? Sir C. LONG said he did not object to the simpli fying of the public accounts, if a better mode, and. one as secure as that now acted upon, was pointed out. He was a public accountant to the amount of 300 millions, and whatever the new mode was, it was his duty to take care that it was one which se cured himself. As to what was said of transferring the duties of the Pay nraster-General, and of perform ing the duty by a Clerk in the Bank, he despaired of satisfying the Hon. Gentleman, his views of economy were not always practicable. After a few words from Colonel DAVIES and Lord PALMERSTON, Mr. PEARSE, said it was quite extravagant to suppose that the Bank could discharge the duties of the Pay Office. After a few words from Colonel DAVIES and Mr. HUME, the vote was agreed to.—The next votes were, For the Adjutant-General's Department at Head quarters For the Adjutant-General's Department in North Britain a *Wed __ pitsent salary had given to thiJodge.tdvotite-Oeltek ral. Now that the inereased the duties bf the JudgesAdtocates of Scotland and Ireland had fallen upon this Officer, with the loss of his Mott able assistant, he did not think it was the time to reduce his salary r -(Hear). Mr. HUME thought that the Ades of the office must be so much diminished in this time 'of peace, that a salary of 1800 t. would be quite enough for 'a JudgelAdvocate. He therefore moved that in place of 4580 h the vote be 3580/. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, the Judge- Advocate had remained on his present footing ever since the Revolution, and had received the Smite emolument as the junior Judges of the Court of King's Bench The situaticd of Judge-Advocate Cleneral had always been considered equal in, rank, and entitled to the same rate of emolument; as the junior Judges of the Superior Omits at Westiniaster: It was of great use to the Army; The lives and li berties of every individual, and, what was still more, the chat acter of every Officer in the Ariny were under his controul, and must be considered as deb ending; to a certain degree, on the talents; the knowledge, and the prudence of the Judge-Advocatvkleneraf— (Hear, hear).—The Hon. Member, seemed to think that the-extent of his duties had'decreased since the peace, but he was mistaken ; for it was since 1811 only that General Courts Martial had been intro duced... That Officer was a Privy Councillor to the sing, and was appointed for the protection of the Army. He presided over all Courts Martial ; for in these Courts the evidence was received according to the forms of the Civil Courts, and in every respect cOnducted - anticline to the Law of England. In all criminal cases tried by Courts Martial, the greatest atteninwfiii - d - etacinbsrvtgre aqiiired - with regard to evidence. No person, he was sure, that was aware of the importance of this Officer to the Army and to the Country, would think the-salary affixed tO his situation by the Administration of lirenville and Fox too much. . - Mr. HUM F admitted that the Judge-AdvOcate had a better Counsellor in the Hon. and Learned Gentle man than in himself, when he was in the House; but he could as soon be persuaded that black was white, as that the duties of his drffice were as great now, in time of peace, as they had been in a period of oar. The SPEAKER said, that as he had once filled the office of Judge-Advocate-General, he was anxious to put the. Committee in possession of what he could state troar experience respecting its important duties. He should not have troubled the Committee, if it had been merely a question of salary, but he was anxious that they should-not be. misled 'with respect to the delicacy and difficulty of the duties ohich be had to perform, or to the manner in which the ques tion of peace or war was calculated to affect those duties. He wished also to guard them against the notion that the importance of those duties could be measured by the mere number of the proceedings which took place. When he filled the office, he f •und that its difficulties did not arise from the uumber of Reports transmitted from abroad. The Judge-Ad vocate-General had the right of private audience with the Sovereign on military matters. He iid not mean to say that he •hould be paid 2,5001. a-year, instead of 1,5001. for that reason, but merely to shew that the office was a most important one. There was no act of a Judge-Advocate in any part of the world, for which the Judge-Advocate General was not responsible ; and he could assure the Commit tee, had ever come before him, upon which he did not report to the Crown with that conviction, and after the most laborious investigation. No case had. come before him which he did not sift, with a view to discover not only whether the evi dence proved the charge, but whether it was legal or illegal. During the first two years that he was con nected with the office, he had never been ahse..t five weeks; and during the whole time that he held it, not a fortnight together. In addition to this, he could state, that not a day had elapsed in which he was not in communication of stsict confidence with the Commander-in-Chief and the Secretary at War. If, therefore, the office was to be maintained at all; it should be maintained with a dignity corresponding with its high functions, and calculated to secure the confidence of the Army, and of the country in general. The Committee then divided on the Amendment— Ayes, 18 —Noe, 12 / —Major ity, 106.—The Estimate was then agreed to. The sum of 12,7651. was then voted for the Comp troller of Army Accounts, Clerks, Scc. The sum of 57151. being moved for the expense of the Medical Department, Mr. HUME wished to have the expense of both branches of the Medical Department in the nature of one establishment. He considered the sum more than strict economy ought to allow. Lord PALMERSTON said the duties were of the most important description. The Officers of the Esta blishment were entrusted with the health of the troops. The Estimate, and also that for the Medical De- . partment in Ireland, were agreed to. The sum of 19,353/. was granted for Medicines for the Hospitals. • For Volunteer Corps in Ireland, 61,3191. To defray the expense of the different troops re cruited for the East India Company's service, the sum of 53,1081. To the Estimate for the Royal Military College, Sandhurst, amounting to 13,602/, Mr. HUME objected. He wished t know what occasion there was for so many Staff Officers? The Governor and Staff Officers were, in the Hors) a able Member's opinion, an unnecessary expense to the country. The young men educated at the Establish ment were numerous. Although they had 290 pu pils, it was well known they .could not receive com missions. It was cruel to educate young men for a objectior The o rs t , p r op o sed ilentb l s i t a a v ti i o n i g i th sta e t y ed co th u e ld w n h o o t le a reduction of 5,0001. from the vote. a ot ttai i r: i . s Lord PALMERSTON said, it was obvious the Hon. Gentleman's object was not so much to reduce the vote as to break down the establishment. Any man who had turned his mind to military history must know that unless an army was commanded by Officers acrptainted uita the discipline or moors, a •CA 4 • i. • -•• • • ' . • , • • • ~.. .. .. ~ • . . , • "• .. . . .... .. ..... . . . •• . . , . .. .. . \ . .. , "•. . . r • . . - • • ret what had Mr. W Mita did not think tha t the•Nbiiiitorci. har t . thaw; it Vire tte intention io reluE6 4 ll ta senior clerks, had explained the charge which had been Made of a 'atiim . mt df salary, he iiii4inly shah! take thi siiitid oat, the busi- clerk having left. she Wet Office for the Commissar- of the House on a Ittotthil tut doing ib in the preiin't Mr. Sullivan riat, and thou returned to the War•litsCe§ tteeiviag Estithaten • I he received. A retitintpeusion from the Commissariat: The en Ai l iEttiiit• df the Excittgitit 4 1 0; otherwise, ac- _Loid PALMERSTON con f e s se d he was !triable to when this office had been s et t led in 1801, the'rfseni area a person affirm OV . , amtradict the assertibit which had been salary had betiti given to thi1i,100.414...i.,i,—rt..z. For the Quarter-Muter-General's Department at llead-quarters - - - - 390 - 6,176 For the corresponding Department North Britain - .250 For Judge Advocate-General's Department . 4,580 Mr. HUME asked whether the reduction of 6001. in this vote was in consequence of the dismissal of the Judge -Advocate-General for North Britain ? Lvrd PALMERSTON said, that that Officer had been reduced, but it did not appear in the Estimates. The reduction apparent in the vote was in conse quence.of the reduction of the Deputy Judge-Advo." care; so that there was a double retrenchment to the amount of 1,2004.--(Hear, hear). Mr. HUME said, he was sorry to find there was no intention to bring back the salary of the Judge- Advocate-General to anything like what it was tor- Ott t I /