Star. — London, England, 1821-07-03 00:00:00

: , in wilhlrlfdiers. If this was 'true, he reckoned it an insult on the People of this country. Could not his Majesty proceed in safety from the Hall to the Abbey, except through files of soldiers? Was a sus picion so repugnant to the feelings of Englishmen to be entertained, as that his Majesty could not trust himself among his People? that in being surrounded by his subjects, he was surrounded with assassins and cut-throats? He (Lord Grosvenor) would entreat his Majesty's Ministers, if they thought they could not celebrate the Coronation without bodies of troops, to change their resolution altogether. But it was said soldiers were necessary as a part of the pageant. If so, let them be placed in the Hall and the Abbey ; but let them not appear to guard the procession.— The Noble Earl concluded by saying, that though he would have preferred his Noble Friend's motion, he would rather agree to the Amendment than have no Address. Lord MELVILLE said, that he should not notice the question of whether the Queen should be crowned or not, it was perfectly inapplicable to the present ques tion. The naval force furn►shed only 40 sail of the line applicable to immediate service. Still he thought that next year more reductions might be made in ad dition to what had been done this year, and yet the establishment be kept up efficiently. it was never in tended to keep up the expenditure at Sheerness as it had been done. The Earl of CA RNARVON preferred the Motion of his Noble Friend, because it was a most plain, in telligible, and manly statement. Here the Ministers had become their own panegyrists; in the •other House they had left that task to a friend. Ile agreed the distress depended solely on the financial state of the country, and not on the state of agriculture.— They must revert to a more perfect resemblance to the old standard of gold currency ; the agriculturists could receive no substantial relief, except in some measure for reducing largely the amount of our tax ation. If they did not resort to this, they would see what would be the consequence of an impoverished and degraded yeomanry, peasantry, and aristocracy. It was to them that they could alone look for sub stantial support to the Crown, the Constitution, and the Country. Still he had heard no plan of economy which would in his opinion be adequate to our relief. Lord CALTHORPE hoped, that after the satis factory promise of economy on the part of the Noble Earl opposite, the Noble Mover would not press the question to a division. Earl DARNLEY replied ; and said, he was willing to take the Noble Earl's amended Address, and he hoped it would he an earnest of still greater reduction. The amended Address was then agreed to without a division.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The House was summoned to the House of Peers, to hear the Royal Assent given, by Commission, to several Public and Pri vate Dills—/for which see our Report of the Lords). Mr. HARBORD presented a Petition from the Inhabitants of several Parishes in Somersetshire, praying for a revision of the Criminal Code.—Ordered to be printed. The Bankruptcy Court Bill went through a Committee, the Report of which was received and agreed to. The Bill was or dered to be read a third time to-morrow. Mr. ARBUTHNOT presented a general Account of the Increase of the Salaries of Public Officers since the year 1793.- Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. GRATTAN presented a Petition from several Share holders of the Late Theatre in Crow-street, Dublin, praying for an inquiry into the circumstances which had occasioned a refusal to renew the Patent to Frederick Jones, am—Ordered to lie on the table. The Captured Slaves Bill was read a third time and passed. On the Motion of Mr. Clay% an humble Address was or dered to be presented to his Majesty, praying that he would be graciously p le ased to order that there be laid before the House a Copy of the Ninth Report of the Commission appointed to In quire into the Salaries of the Judges, &c. in Scotland. SLAVE TRADE. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH wished to ask a ques tion of the Noble Marquis opposite. The Noble Mar quis, some time ago stated, in his place in Parlia ment, that the only reason why the French Ministers abstained from proposing certain measures to carry into complete effect the intentions of the Government of France to put down the Slave Trade was the pro bability of the resistance of the Chamber of Depu ties. It appeared, however, from a late debate on the subject in the French Chamber, that when the Minister of Marine was charged with the inefficient state of the French law towards putting down that detested traffic, he (the Minister) offered no other ex cuse for delay than that the Minister who was charged with die preparation of the projet, bad not yet com pleted it. Now he (Sir J. Mackintosh) wished to know from the Noble Marquis if his statement was founded upon the authority of any written communication with the French Minister ; and, if so, whether he would have any objection to lay that part of the Correspondence which related to the subject before the House? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that he considered the circumstance alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman as rather confirmatory of the truth of the explanation which lie had given of the grounds of the, delay imputed to the French Government. The Mi nister of the Marine, he understood, had declared that the code of laws was imperfect on the subject of the Slave Trade; that he wished some time ago to amend it, but that, on account of the temper that prevailed with respect to it in the Chamber of Depu ties, and anxious not to disturb the attention of that Assembly, enfaged as it was in the most important concerns of }ranee, the Minister thought it more expedient to withhold any proposition to that effect. He said that the indisposition of the Chambers to im prove the laws respecting the Slave Trade was shewn by their each rejecting or passing over a petition pre sented to each Chamber, calling their attention to the state of these laws. fie believed that there was a strong colonial spirit in France, which rendered it very difficult for the Government to carry on their measures fcr the complete abolition of the traffic. As to the information on which he had founded his statement, he believed he had faithfully stated the substance of it, and, under these circumstances, he did not think it advisable to press any further discus sion in the matter. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, that the recent explanation of the grounds of delay by the Minister of Marine, was at variance with that which the No ble Marquis had made for him. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY considered that die statement which he had formerly made, was borne out by the recent discussions that had taken piaci: in the Chamber of Deputies. arisTmINSTER ABEVY. Dr. PHILLIMORE said, that he was requested to make a short statement on behalf of the Dean and Chapter of Westminster, with; view to do away an injurious impression, which something that had passed in the House on Thursday last, on the subject of public monumes.:.;, was calcul .l tted to make. He was requested to state, that during the last twenty years the Dean and Chapter of Westminster had expended a sum of £39,000 in general repairs, particularly in repairing die exterior of Henry the Seventh's Chapel. They denied that the profits from the Coronation would be anything like what they were estimated at. The Dean and Chapter estimated the revenue arising to them out of that solemnity would not exceed £3,000, and that this revenue was applicable by usage to many purposes. Lastly, they desired to represent, that the public monuments could not be kept clean; on account of the dust and smoke which prevailed in the metropolis. Sir C. LONG said, that he believed the statement now made referred partly to what had fallen from him on Thursday. He, as one of the Commissioners for superintending the Public Monuments, was happy to say that he considered the repairs on Henry the Seventh's Chapel were executing in a style every way worthy of that venerable monument- of art. As to the preservation of the monuments, he had said, and would repeat, that it was a matter of, surprise and mortification to him and all those who took an jute test in the preservation of works of art, that more care had not been taken of the public monuments in Westminster Abbey. He meant no reflection on the Dean and Chapter. He spoke generally on . the state of the monuments, and was glad that the public at tention was so much directed to the condition in which these monuments were, as much benefit might be ex- pected from it—( Hear ). . THE DUKE OF CLARENCF,-HER MAJESTY-AND THE CORONATION. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY moved, that the Order of the Day for reading the Duke of Cla rence's Annuity Bill a third time, be read. . Mr. BERNAL warmly opposed the grant of what; were called " the Arrears," and declared that there had not been a single satisfactory reason alleged for their payment. Confident as he was that the coun try looked at the subject in the same point of view, he would move an Amendment, to substitute 18'21 for 1818, as the period at which the operation of the Annuity should commence. The SPEAKER observed, that the Bill must be read a third time before the Amendment proposed by the Honourable Gentleman could be received. The Order of the Day was then read. On the motion that the Bill be read a third time, Mr. CREEVEY rose, not to say anything more respecting his Royal highness the Duke of Clarence's character or deportment, but to call the attention of the House, and still more of the Public, to the time at which the subject was brought before Parliament. When a motion for repealing the Malt Tax was car ried in that House, the number of Members present being 274, the Noble Marquis declared, that the Howe was too thin finally to determine on so im portant a subject ; he advised Honourable Gentlemen " not to halloo before they were out of the wood ;" and in the end, he actually did convert the majority of 78 for a repeal of the Tax into a majority of 90 'for its continuance! When a que.tion was carried which was vitally important and beneficial to the People, the Noble Marquis thought 274 Members constituted too thin a House. Again, when the Ho nourable Member for Cumberland succeeded in in ducing a House of '254 Members to agree to a repeal of the Agricultural Horse Tax, the Right Honour able Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) said it was too small a House, and that he would try his. hand again—a resolution, however, from which he had subsequently been diverted. A House of 274 or of 254 Members was too small to discuss a sub ject in which the interests of the People were at stake; but when the proposition was for the benefit of the Crown or any of its Members, the Noble Marquis had no objection to a House such as that which he (Mr. Creevey) was then addressing—a House, the majority of which was composed of Placemen! If ever there was an unanswerable case in favour of any proposition, the present state of the House furnished such a case in favour of the proposition of his Ho nourable Friend, the Member for Shrewsbury, to ex clude Placemen and Pensioners from seats in Parlia ment. At this late period of the Session, Placemen, always formidable, became still more so. They were as numerous in the House as ever, while other Ho nourable Members, fatigued with the laborious duties which they had so long continued to perform, were gone out of town. Then came the Noble Marquis and his colleagues, and availed themselves of so ad vantageous a position of circumstances to get money from the House for some one branch of the Royal Family! It was highly objectionable to bring for ward such a proposition, when it must be decided by such a House as that which he (Mr. Creevey) was addressing; and for that, among other reasons, he should certainly urge his opposition to the Bill to a division, in order that the Public might see who the Members were by whom their money was thus pro digally voted away. Mr. BEECHER declared, that since he had had the honour of a seat in that House, he had never heard a proposition which appeared to him to be se extra ordinary, so unprincipled, and so extravagant, as the proposition to pay what were called " the Arrears of the Duke of Clarence's Annuity." It was a proposi tion, which, if carried, would give those who were always ready to find fault with the constitution of that House just ground for censure. Surely the House of Commons were entitled to more ceremonious tr eat meat, than to have their grant rejected at one mo ment, and accepted at another, when the increased value of the currency, or any other cause, might in duce the change of determination. It was hard that the Representatives of the People were to be bound by their first offer, but that the individual in whose favour that offer was made was not to be bound by his refusal. To acquiesce in such a proposition would be to spew that the House was really indiffe rent about the economy of which so much had been said, and that they were not disposed to put the dis tresses and reproaches of the People in competition with the wants of his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence and the wishes of his Majesty's Ministers. If, three years ago, when this grant was refused, it `had been declared by any one, that, at a subsequent time, Ministers would propose not only to renew the grant, but to pay the arrears of the intervening pe riod, he would have been called a vile calumniator. Any unjust imputation on their generosity the House might answer, by declaring that what they had of fered three years ago they had since spent rfor every body knew that the £lB,OOO must be borrowed in order to be paid. Undoubtedly, therefore, he should vote against the payment of any arrears; hot he con fessed that the prospective grant of £6OOO a-year seemed to him to rest on different grounds. He was as ready as any man- to allow any Member of the Royal Family whatever was necessary for the main tenance of his dignity and the credit of the country. He had no objection, therefore, to the grant of sir thousand pounds a-year; although, when he recol lected that the Honourable Member for Aberdeen, with whom he concurred in thinking thai the Royal Brothers ought to be placed on the same level, had shewn that all that was necessary for that purpose was an allowance of £3,500 to the Duke of Clarence, he should vote, unless the Honourable Member were proved to be erroneous in his statement, even against the grant of £6,000. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW regretted that the Ho nourable Gentleman who had just spoken had not been in his place on Saturday evening. He would then have heard an Honourable Gentleman, who was in no way connected with Ministers (the Honourable Member for East Looe) state circumstances which sheaved the true character of the proceedings of his Royal Highness. The Honourable Member for East Looe had stated, that his Royal Highness, at the pe riod of the original grant, felt that he could live abroad without it; but that public and domestic cir cumstances, which it was unnecessary to explain, had rendered it imperative on his Royal Highnes s to re turn. In his (Mr. Seijeant Onslow's) opinion, the payment of the arrears to his Royal Highness was simply in the nature of an outfit. Mr. MONCK declared that he felt himself bound to oppose the grant, declaring that after all that he had heard, he was persuaded there was no case made out for its justification. In the present situation of ,the country, the simple consideration for the Ilouse was, whether strict necessity or strict justice required such an expenditure. It was evident that the only way in which his Majesty's Ministers could be rcn dered economical was by lopping off some of the taxes, and thereby depriving them of the means of being otherwise. Lord A. HAMILTON intimated his intention of moving a Resolution, that it might appear on the Journals in the shape of a Protest against the im propriety, without an immediate Message from the Crown, of voting a Parliamentary grant like the present on a Message sent three Parliaments ago, and under another reign. Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that his opinion on the question of the arrears to his Royal Highness was well known. There was an evident distinction bes tween that question and the question of the prospec tive grant of £6,000 a-year. In consequence of what had passed on a recent occasion, when he was not present, with respect to the approaching solem nity of the Coronation, he felt it right to state the reasons of the delay which had been imputed to her Majesty, or to the Law Officers of her Majesty, in asserting her Majesty's claim to be included in that ceremony. In the first place, the delay in question had by no means been to the extent stated by the Noble Marquis. He had been told that the Noble Marquis said there had been two months delay— The Marquis of LONDONDERRY--" About ,two months." Mr 13ROUGHAM Well, about two months. If it had been a week more or less, he would not have quarrelled with the Noble Marquis oh the sub ject; but there was a great difference between two months and one month. He would now state pre cisely what had been the extent of the delay. It was on the 21st of May that the Noble Nialquis delivered his opinion in the House on the subjcct of the Coro nation, which subject had never before that period been mentioned. An lion. Friend of his had put a question to the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the occasion of a discussion respect ing the 'Ordnance Estimates. To the part of that question which respected the Coronation, the Right Hon. Gentleman 'made no answer. The question did not refer to any claim on her Majesty's part to be crowned, but merely to ascertain if provision had been made to enable her Majesty to attend on that occasion? His Hon. Friend laboured under a mistake if he supposed that any express permission to attend was necessary; because, of course, her Majesty had the same right as that enjoyed by any of his Ma jesty's subjects, to attend as a spectator of the cere mony. The question, however, was taken up by the Noble Marquis as if it related to a right claimed by her Majesty to be crowned herself; and the Noble Marquis thereupon declared that it was clearly his opinion, that an act of the Crown was requisite to enable her Majesty to be so crowned—for that al though she was Queen Consort, he was clearly of opinion, that both in usage and in law, it rested with the King to decide whether she should be crowned or not. The Noble Marquis added, that he might as well then say, that neither he nor his colleagues were prepared to advise such an act of the Crown. On this he (Mr. Brougham) immediately protested against the Noble Marquis's doctrine, and desired to be understood, that he by no means admitted that her Majesty had no right to be crowned without such an act. This he had said, lest his silence should be' interpreted into an assent to the Noble Marquis's pro position. That was all that occurred on the 21st of May. Was it a necessary consequence, either that the solemnity of the Coronation should take place, or that the Noble Marquis's opinion should be acted upon, and her Majesty be excluded from a partici pation in the ceremony? It had been justly oh-, served by his Hon. and Learned Friend on a recent occasion, that her Majesty's law advisers were not placed in the same situation with reference to her Majesty, as his Majesty's responsible advisers were with reference to the King. It was not for them to initiate any proceeding. They were to receive the orders of her Majesty, and not to suggest any course of proceeding. But even if it were otherwise, it would have been their duty to wait until the Coro nation should be actually proclaimed—(//ear, hear). ' Nay more, it would have been their duty to act un der the recollection, that although a Proclamation was issued on the 6th of May, 1820, dechn ing that the Coronation should take place on the Ist August, in that year, another Proclamation was issued in July, putting the Coronation off. It was of cours e natural that her Majesty, and her Majesty's Law Officers should wait until they saw a fresh Prod * . mation, fixing the time for the Coronation. Th at Proclamation was dated on Saturday, the 9th of June. It did not appear in the Gazette until T. day, the 12th of June. Now, the Memorial to th e king in Council, in which her Majesty claimed he r tight to be crowned, was prepared, and went of from his (Mr. Brougham's) chambers on the 23d of June, so that the delay which had taken place, and of which the Noble Marquis had complained, /rat exactly eleven days. When it was considered th at in those eleven days it had been neces;ary for him to go through all the documents comected with t hi subject, and to make up his mind as to the advi c , which he should give her Majesty, unOer circu m ; stances of such extraordinary importance, he cer tainly. did not think that any great blame would be imputed to him for the delay. He might also m en , tion the accidental and unfortunate circumstance # the extreme indisposition of his Hon. and Learnt' Friend. who about that period had been confined a his bed for upwards of a fortnight. Some impe r t, ment, too, had arisen in consequence of the holidays, which had occasioned the shutting tip the British Museum, in which he had found it necessary to search for some essential papers. He ought to add, however, that great courtesy bad been shewn him by the persons in the superintendence of that establish. ment, so as to enable hfm to visit it twice, nor u i t h; standing its being shut to the Public. At the sam e time, the closing of the Institution was ' certa i n l y a i impediment to his inquiries, as he felt the expediency of not trespassing on the indulgence which he had experienced. Under all these circumstances, how. ever, her Majesty's Memorial was delivered in na Monday, the 25th of June. He would altoghe e abstain at present from saying anything on the mat. ter of that Memorial, understanding that it was us . der consideration, and feeling it impossible to antici. pate such an answer as ,should preclude him from being heard in a proper quarter in support of het Majesty's claim. As to the argument grounded Oa the ne.ir approach of the Coronation, they were very much deceived who supposed that there was any want of time in which to listen to such an applica. tions Between the • present period and the period fixed for the Coronation there was an interval of se venteen days. There were instances in which the Proclamation for announcing a Coronation had heat issued only sixteen days before the period at which that Coronation was appointed to take Mace. There ' bad been instances of changes in the ai tangeinents for a Coronation, made in a subsequent Prociaiiia tion, only nine days before the period at which the Coronation was appointed to take place. There ad been instances of such changes having been pro claimed only two days before the period at which the Coronation was appointed to take place. To talk therefore, of time now presAng, or of inconvenience resulting from any imputed delay, was to talk with utter neglect of all precedent and usage. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY denied having intended to throw any reflection on her Majestys Law Advisers in their professional capacity. He had only contrasted the rapidity with which they ex pected an answer to their application with the slow ness with which they had 'ride it. lie wished, haw ever, to render himself more intelligible to the Ho ncurable and Learned Gentleman than it appeared he •' had been. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman had particularly adverted to what had fallen Iron him (the Marquis of Londonderry), car the `list of May. Undoubtedly, he had on that occasion as sumed that it was the right of the Crown to deter mine whether or not her Majesty should be crowned, and therefore that her being crowned was a question on her part of indulgence and favour, and not of tight. But it was not on that occasion alone that he had expressed such an opinion. He was sure the Honourable and Learned Gentleman and the House must recollect that there had been hardly . any one de bate, either in the present or in the list Session, in which he had not distinctly, and as far as his own impression went, contrasted what he considered to be the rights of her Majesty by law, with those immn limes to which she could become entitled only by the grace and favour of the Crown. Among the latter he had always enumerated the Coronation of her Majesty, and her reception at Court. The Honour able and Learned Gentleman's attention therefore must have been called to the opinion of his Ma jesty's Ministers on the subject long ago. It was not on the 21st of May that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman first heard any of his Majesty's Ministers declare that, in their opinion, her Majesty had no right to demand to be crowned. What passed on the 21st of May, was occasioned only by the atten tion which her Majesty's application had called to the subject. Her Majesty had written to his Noble Colleague (Lord Liverpool), desiring to know in what form she was to be received at the Coronation, and who were to be her attendants ? The answer was, that her Majesty had no tight to attend; that it was in the discretion of the Crown to permit her attend ance, and that the King's Servants did not feel it their duty to advise his Majesty to allow of her Ma jesty's participation in the ceremony. On this her Majesty sent a rejoinder, re-asserting her right, and declaring her intention to be present, unless expressly prohibited. To this peremptory declaration on the part of her Majesty, an answer as peremptory, though respectful, was given, again denying her Majesty's right, again stating that his Majesty had nit been advised to receive her, and adding that, of courses her Majesty would consider that intimation as a pro hibition of her attendance. Under these circumstances therefore the Hon. and Learned Gentleman could non complain of any want of warning on the subject-- When he (the Marquis of Londonderry) laid down what he conceived to be the law on the subject, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman did noi lay down his counter-law. It was impossible to suppose that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and his Hon. and Learned Friend wanted zeal in the cause of thee Royal Mistress. Their conduct had always s heays . the reverse. But, really, it was very hard that ho Majesty's Ministers should be reprimanded, and taunted, and called over the coals, and that a dal • Ishould be selected for that purpose, when it was vea l possible that not one of them would be in his placer. because a Memorial which had been presented en Monday bad not been answered on Saturday ; a Mt' • morial also, be it observed, which it bad taken the Hon. and Learned Gentleman so long to PrePrel D .lammiairo.asounkai.—j