Star. — London, England, 1817-07-01 00:00:00

i 1 1 Jalght, he thoonht.indoce a fatal change in the Con. • sitution of the country—as the measure, while it di. finished the salutary. would go to increase the bane ful interests o• Crown. The Earl of HA ft ROWBY supported the mea sures on similar grounds 0. those advanced fl his Noble Friend who opened the discussion. Lord REDESDALE objected to the proposed measures, and pointedly urged that of their going to lodge in other hands, a patronage which had been so long constitutionally exercised by the Crown. The LORD CHANCELLOR generally suppot rd the and in reference to what had fallen f rom a Noble EA, observed that he had actually preserved one of the Bills alluded to by him (as re jected with scorn on a former occasion), as a legisl4- tive curiosity ; for any thing more absurd, in the shape of an Act of Parliament, he had never seen. Earl GROSVENOR admitted, that a debate upon this sahject could not he of the liveliest description; the question had been frequently discussed, both on principle and in derail; but at present the House was IRA prepared to enter minut , -ly into the particulars of the measure. His Lordship was rejoiced that the Bill now came forward under more favourable au spices; not indeed that any praise was due to Mini sun, or to himself, and those who had persevered in calling the attention of Parliament to the subject, the credit belonged to the Nation, who, with one voice, Low claimed that Sinecures should be abolished.— Tl:e House was not indebted for the measure to po. ; ut.ir clamour, which one Noble Lord had censured, but to the good sense of the country, expressed in every Petition laid upon the table for a redress of l;rievances. The Noble Lord who spoke last had talked of his resistance to the Bills of 1812 and 1813, , btit he seemed not to zectillect that then he had only opposed them in principle; now he had gone into the detail ; but he did pot appear to be more happy in the one than in the other. He (Lord Urosvenor) objected principally to the clause of compensation, wnich be saw in the Bill before the House. The Yeti ion List at present amounted to 8'230,000, and he did not see any reason for casting new burdens upon the people. Out Noble Earl (Harrowby) hla argued that this measure rather increased than dim - toshed the influence of the Crown ; but, at lest, it diminished, on the whole, the weight which the Na non had to sustain. The influence of the Crown had, indeed, of late years, most lamentably spited i ite all the eoiployments of life—it came home to the business and tiosoint of all men—no pace ,• as tree from its visitation, and that chiefly trout the im mense en.arge , nent of the Revenuer—it Lives ;btu' all lite, extends Wu' all sum, Spread, undivided, operates uuspent. Yet even allowing that We Bill upon the table aug mented the influence for the present, that influence could only be of short duration ; it would not be he reditary, as was nuts not infrequently the case, It was singular, atter the opposition the Bills he had introduced had met with from the other side of the House, that the present should originate with the Treasury Bench ; that some Noble Lords there sit ting should stand forward to support it; and he hoped, in this age of eenstructi* and fine-drawn treasons, he i should not be supposed to be commit ' ting.a crime of a very heinous nature in opposing ere put of it. -Lord ERSKINE earned the House against the augmenting posher and weight in the balance of the Constitution which the other House of Parliament was acquhing, and which was exemplified by the fait, that it had the power of removing any Minister the Crown thought fit to appoint. Above all, their Lordships ought to take cam that it did not impro perly yield, because the other House, Session after session. besieged it with the same Bills, or at least wills Bills having the same principle. it was neces sary first to inquire who mad* the demand that Sine cures should be abolished I and next, what was the precise nature and nbject of .that demandl If h o ds these were examined, it would be found that diem was co pretence for the measure now submitted.—: • There was a wide difference between complying with wishes of the people in reasonable matters, and suddenly consenting to such an alteration of the'fixed Constitution as deprived the King of a power be had liitherto at all times possessed. His Lordship then called the attention of the House to the distinction b etween mace pensions, and offices of high dignity for the reward of distinguished services ;'and com pared the latter to architectural ornaments, which, while they increased thebeauty, in fact, also added to the strength and - solidity of the edifice. He argu ed that, if sinecures were abolished. the people would not in tact be gainers, as the fees of the offices would not be diminished. Considering the power the House of Commons-possessed, it was neceuary that the Crown should possess - a certain degree of info et.ce and weight among the leading individuals of the realm. Lord ARDEN was sorry he could not concur in the principle of the Bill. lie considered sinecures as a mese. vested in the Crown for repairing the lemisfortunes of Noble Families, torn did destroyed by ' the injuries of time. *Ate present bill went entirely to deprive the Crown of those means, and to substi tute nothing for them: He had no doubt his Noble Friends were actuated by honourable motive,s, but in this icstaace the interest of Ministers wits in direct Opposition to that of the Crown. Viewing the Bales operating a great change in the conditional the Crown, he co* not conceive how the House could accede to such a measure, end he thought they had not :hewn the Throne due respect in countenancing it so far. ' Earl BATHURST, in reply to throbjection that this Bill went to take away offices out of the gift of the Crown, observed, that it was unconstitutional to suppose that the Crown would dispose of any office without an accompanying responsibility I but the ol fices.of Auditor of the Exchequer and Clerk of the "'ells were not in the gift of the Crown, but in that of the Treasury. As to the objection; that pensions, being 0 matter of right, would call for no gr a ti tu d e ft ouirli objects of such bounty, this might have been so uttider the former Bill ! but at present, the number of pensions being limited, the Crown would exercise a st.leetion,and the objects of such selection must al wa be 'beholden fur the prefetence. lord LAUDERDALE was proceeding to ex p!alo. when-- • I.erd HARROWBY rose to orde r, as the Noble Lord was trans pees* do bounds of explanation. The Hum they divided on tlic question, •wiliether the Bill shoull he co omittfd ? when the numbers were—Cnntent, 27; Not content, 7; Majority, 20. ' The Bill then passed through the Committee, and some amendments having been agreed to, the Report was brought up. The Exchequer Offices Bill was committed, and the Report brought up ; as was the Bill for the Abo lition tit the Offices of Chief Justice, in Eyre north and south of Trent and Warden of the Cinque Ports; and a Bill for the Abolition and Regulation of cer tain Offices in Ireland anJ .Scotland. The sit/end Reports were brought up, and the House adjiurned at eleven o'clock. nOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr HART DAVI4 pr,.ented a Pethinn from the Mayor, Aldermen, and Corporation, and other lithabicants of Bristol, against the employing ut Climbing Boys.—Read, and ordered to lm on the table Mr. C. W. WYNN msved the second reading of the Elec. don Regulation Bill. After some observations from Mr. dour!, Colonel Wood, and Mr. C. W. Wye it, the Bill was read a second time and or dered to be committed on Wednesday neat. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW moved the farther consideration of the Usury Laws Repeal Bill. MY. CALCRAF opposed any alteration in the Law relative to Usury. Sir H. PARNELI. Fuppnrted the measure. General MITCHEL argued against any alteration in the Usu ry Laws, and concluded by moving that the Bill be taken into fur: her consideration this day six months. I.urdCAS'II.EREAGFI suggested the propriety of putting off the measure to another Sewing'. The reasons in favour of the measure were so strung and so convincing, that it could not tail to be successful. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW consented to postpone the me sere, and moved that the Report be taken into lanky consideration this day three months. Mr. LIARING said, some alteration In the Usury Laws was indispensably neee.•.ary. When money was at more than 5 per cent. interest, landed proprie:iirs could not get it at all During the war, when Government revre borrowing at more than 5 per rein. interest, no landkel proprietor could get money at less than Id or 1•! per cet.t. interest. Ihe commercial class-s of musty, hunt their halms, could easily evade the Usury Laws. l be Report 'A Ili then ordered to b. taken 111 LO consideration this day •hrre month. General C.:Abet/IL:NE rresetrel a Petili.:to from Llierpool against use Regulations introduced into the Ezci-e Licenses dell. Hu complained of the late pet iod of the Breslin' in which, con trary to a generahinderetandmr, tine measure was brought on. It was his intention to take the lease of the House or the Bill in every one of its stages. Mr. ILIRCLAY exrresed Unwell In strong terms against the Bdl. Mr. CAI.VERT sa:d he b!'oul,l oppose the lkll in every stage. He complained of the at empi made in it to make every Brewer and Distiller an informer aganiet ms nel;hbour. Mr. PRO I'HEROE expiet.sed !Jinn& against the Bill. be Palma was brought up. and ordered to be printed. Mr. HART DAVIS presen.ed a reutson of a similar nature from the Brewers and builders in Bristol. Mr. C. CALVER f observed, that the 'Fax was one of those winch had been proposed previously to Bonaparte, return from Elba, as a substitute for the Proper). 'lite Petition was order..: to lie on the table; as was one from Cambridge, presented by General Pinch. 11)140114 OF ADMIRALTY. Mr. ABEKCRUMBY, in behalf of Sir James Mackintosh, et.i.ose motion on th,s subject stood for to-morrow, stated, that his Honourable Friend was anxious to make way for the discussion on the Fi- nances, and wished his motion to stand over for au early day in the next Session. IRISH GRAND JURII23. i Thepuler of the Day being read for the further consideration of the Grand Jury Presentment Bill, Sir FREDERICK FLOOD said, that he could consider the measure in no other light than that of al bill ofsindictment against the Grand Juries of Ireland, who were the representatives of the property of the country, and who, since the 36th of the King, bad performed the duties which that Act imposed on them very honestly and fairly. The me as ure wo u ld take the business of presentments out of the hands of the Grand Juries, and give it to five Magistrates t the Juries would have nothing to do but to rejector ap prove their presentments. The Bill also created S 6 new Officers, who would altogether have Marks amounting to £16,000 a year, in the gift of the Go vernmenta step peculiarly objectionable at this time of retrenchment : it was, in his opinion, an ex travagant and insulting measure. Mr. ABERCROMBY said, he should give the Bill his hearty consent.. An entire change in the system of Grand Jury Presentments in Ireland, .was necessary, to pin an end to the multiplication of oaths which led.to the commission of perjury, and to the system of jobbing which prevailed on Grand Juries. The measure, by striking at the root of this system, would Increase the respectability of these bodies.— Under the present method of proceeding, the number of presentments to the Grand Juries was so great, that it was impossible that they could be properly attended to. In proof of this assertion, he read ex tracts Item the evidence of Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald, taken before the Committee on this subject, by which it appeared, that at the Assizes of the County of Tipperary, the number of presentments was such, that the Grand Jury could have allowed only two minutes to the consideration of each, if they bad sat thirteen hours every day, and attended to no other business. A preliminary investigation, as directed by the Bill, would put an end to this inconvenience. The measure would also increase the respectability of the Quarter Sessions, and cause the Magiarates to attend to the business there, which was now left to the Assistant Barrister& From the number of pre sentments which bad been before alluded to, the business was deferred to so late an hour on the last, day of the Assizes, that it was impossible for those who wished to traverse to do so. As to the new Officers who were to be appointe4 (County Sur veyors), he was hardly competent to say whether they were necessary, or whether their business might not be done by 'the Magistrates ; on that subject he should be willing to hear what could be said in a Committee. Sir GEORGE HILL opposed the Bill. This l was a measure which affected the interest, of sixteen counties in Ireland.' It was a bill of indictment against the whole of those counties. It was brought in without evidence; there was nothing in favour of it but the• er-pane statement of five counties. Its effect would undoubtedly be to make the resident proprietors asap ciphers. While the Honourable Baronet was continuing his argument. the Deputy Usher of the Black Rod sum. mooed this House .to the Houle of Peers, sod on their remit, the Speaker informed the House, that the Royal Assent bad been given by Commission to the Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill, and sums other Bills. Sir GEORGE BILL thep moved, as an amend. mcut, that the Report of ail: Itish (Stand Jury Pre. :nutrient ttill be taken into conii3eration ctly three months. Mr. PEG!. could not agree to postpone the tnea• sure till next Session ; for if the House was not now possessed of all necessary information on the subject after the repeated discussions which it had under gone, it never could be fit to legislate on the sul-;ect. The Right Honourable Gentlem an then went on to refute the various arguments and objections of the' I Honourable Baronet (Sir George Hill). He made several statements illustrative of the evils of the pre. sent system, and to shew the frauds which had been practised under it. He contended that nothing could be more beneficial, than to have the Magistrates' make their reports to Grand Juries. The only ob jection, if any, to any part of the Bill was, in his opinion, that which relnted to the Spring Assizes; but he was happy to inform the House, that his Right Honourable Friend who had introduced the measure, intended to substitute the Summer Assizes. Mr. PONSONBY. thong!) he felt the force of many of the objections urged against the Bill, and though he concurred in some of them, yet, upon the whole, he was friendly to it ; but there was one part of it which he would be sorry that the House should agree to, as it now stood, upon the Bill, namely, the clause relative to the County Surveyors. He could nut agree with those who thought the appointment of those offices necessary, for the only effect would be to throw additional influence into the bands of the Iris! Government. These Surveyors would be merely a revival of the Conservators, whose appointment had been so pernicious. Sir N. COLT HURST spoke shortly in favour of the Bill. It would be particularly desirable in the Bill to substitute the Summer Assizes instead of the Spring Assizes. Mr. V. FITZGERALD justified the necessity of all the different parts of the Bill which the Gentle men opposite had objected to. Not one clause had been introduced but what had been recommended by the Committee, as tending to a beneficial object. He was confident no measure more important to the in terests of Ireland had been brought forward since the Union. Sir H. PARNELL did not think the Office of Surveyor liable to so many abuses as had been stated, as no person could be appointed who was not a most competent Civil Engineer. He was sure the opinion of the people cf Ireland concerning this Bill, was very differeqt from that which the Right Honourable Gentleman had stated, which was rather 01st - of the Gland Juries. Convinced of its necessity, he should give the Bill his most cordial support. S,r S. ROMILLY spoke as to the vast importance of the Bill, and the necessity of making it as perfect as possible. COURTENEY was in favour of the Bill. Mr. A BERCROMBY was against its being hut• tied over. Mr. V. FITZGERALD said, he felt strongly what had been said by the Gentlemen on both sides, and being anxious to conciliate them all, he would suggest that the Bill be recommitted on Wednesday next, and to report it forthwith. Mr. CaoNan,. Sir N. CoLTaURST, and Mr. W. QUIN were.against procrastination. The SPEAKER suggested, that the recommit ment of the Bill till Wednesday would cause the third reading to be delayed one day. It was worthy of consideration whether this were advisable. The question for the recommitment on Wednes day was then carried. , COSIMITTEE 1F SVPPLT. On the motion of the CitaNcet.ton of the EXCIIIL- Q 6611. that the House go into a Committee of Supply, and that the Petition of the High Bailifiof Westmin ster be referred to the said Committee, Mr. BANKES thought it highly objectionable to bring forward such a subject at so late a period of the Session; as even now the Report on his claim was not to be had at the Vote Office. He desired it to be understood that he did not object to the claim, but to the time at which it was brought forward. Mr. LOCKHART thought the subject could not be brought forward earlier. The CHANCELLOR of_ the EXCHEQUER supported the claim. Mr. BENNETT, before the house went into the Commitiee, wished to know of the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite the result of the inquiry that had been made into the case of Evans, confined in Horse monger-lane ? ' Mr. H. ADDINGTON alluded to the strong and ' unfavourable impression that had been made by the statement that had appeared on the case of this pet• son, and was anxious that the Gentlemen who hid heard what was alleged on Friday last should be pre sent to hear his reply, that they might convince themselves whether the explanation would not do away the charge. He felt it his duty to state, that he would be in his place at an early hour to-morrow, in order to take the first opportunity of giving this explanation. Mr. BENNETT declared he would be ready to say as much as the Right Hon. Gentleman its favour of the Keeper of the Prison. The House then went into the Committee, when Sir G. WARRENDER having moved that the sum of 4133,511 be granted to his Majesty tur de fraying the Ordinary Establishment of the Navy, for a period of seven Lunar months trona the 7th day of June, 1817. Sir C. POLE repeated his objections to the small ness of the Pensions granted to Naval Officers of a certain tank and their Widows, comparing them, as on former occasions, with the large and unequalled pen sions of Officers of the Army. He stated a case of some sisters of pee family, a ho had applied in conic. quence of having lost seven brothers in the Naval Service, four of whom had arrived at a rank equal to that of Captain in the Army ; and yet the pen sions they could obtain would be quite insignificant, while in the other branch of the service, they would have been very considerable. He contended that it was highly unjust such a distinction should prevail. He thought the Committee ought to lay down some scale for better equalizing the Pensions. Sir. G. WARKENDER. concurred entirely with the gallant Admiral, as to the Civil Pensions ; but there were many which were not in the Navy Esti. mates at all, and he must see that it would be only doing inj ury to the cause to o pp ose th e humb stated there.. general, however, the Naval Pensions 'maintained a scale precisely similar to those of the same rank in the Army ; and it was impossible to in 'creme them at present. Fie answered thr cth, s ections of the Hon. Admiral, and Iwped when I. whole subject was reconsidered by the Cornmit:, such regulations might be adopted as mould be b. nvEcial. Mr. CALCR AFT contended, that the Officers in the Navy were not on the same footing as those ie the Army, which they ought to be. He alfuded tv I the retiring pensi , .ns of Sir T. l'hompinn, which was very large, particularly the last pension uf six hun dred pntu.ds a-year, which came in a very ques tionable shape. It kad been plausibly supposed that Oa; peitsion had bier; given him to nay the expense_ o f the Rochester eke:ian. ("Jeer. hear,) He would say, that this was hip firm belief, as that pension had nnt come till long a 4 .ier Lis retirereent fro'm t%e o'Ntc of Comptroger of -lee Navy. He v'as io the rte.:if)• of time t:;ous•.ed p .cads a year from Governrree:, Wild! WAS kill :'s I..rge. as t.ie pension of I_ , Jd Vincent, or any Atlesir.,l en the honks, Sir G. WAR R E?iDER justiEed the pension every ground, ground, but particularly on that of the serv e :, of the gallant Officer, in the navy, and the loss limb. He was satisfies! the Committee had d.,r4 nothing more than what ought to be done. He had served twelve years in the laborious situation cf Comptroller of the Navy, the duties of wtiich atet almost more than human nature could endure. The First Lord of the Admiralty had given him -.1,e an pointment of Treasurer of Greenwich Hospital, cause so much as the salary amounted to was SAVtd to the public by being dinsintshed from the pension t•i which be was entitled ; and yet the House ‘‘ere to be told that it was given to him for an election :o . e. The circumstance conferred great honour on the Virst Lord, :IS it was in fact sacrificing his own peronage. Sir O. HOPE and Mr. CROKER also justied the pension on similar grounds. A great poitioo cr it had been received for wounds equal to the loss cf two limbs, and on the same basis as every atiter OT.- cer either in the army or navy. The sum of £GIO,KiS was then proposed Icy t.L.e deficiencies of the Extraordinary lista!slishiment of the Navy for the sane period, which gave rise to a conversation about the Plymouth breakwater. Mr. ROSE took this opportunity of alluding to the Petition which had been presented on FritLy evening from Dennis Sullivao, complaining of ti ill-treatment he had received, both at the Admiralty and the Navy Pay 0111.:e, and charging him distinctly with acting unjustly towards him respecting Lis prize-money, which he load not been able to ;sincere. He owed it to himself in say, that there was not the slightest foundation for the statement so made. lie (Mr. Rose) on receiving his application, immediate - 1y wrote to the Agent, and obtained for him the sum of £4. 17s. H.• then complained of :I deduction of 7s. Gd. and lie (Mr. Rose) had not thought thts trifle too contemptible to inquire about ; but had writtea immediately, and had ascertained that it v. - as justly deducted for the commit.ion, stamps, postage, it-. Sullivan then wrote to him agai,., sating, that he was contending for the rights of his brethren, an wished to have the Agents overhauled. He (Mr. Rose) thought these people were pretty well oser hauled, as he had two of them in prison, and had attached the securities of several others. He had 'thought it right to state thus much, that the seam , n, as well as the public, -.hould know they acre pre tected by Government against arty imposice.n. 'defended the conduct of the Gen:lemen bo:h at the Admiralty and the Navy Pay 0:lic against whuu this person had complained. Mr. WYNNE, Mr. D. GrKeettr, and Sir C. P9Lr, spoke in the highest terms of the benefits the tervi:e had received front the indefatigaf,le attention of the: Right lion. Gentleman. Alter various sums had been voted for the im provement of Holyhead Harbour and the road :o Mr. ARBUTHNOT pmposei several itcals the Miscellaneous S.rvices. The first was, the 1..2^t of £8591 for defraying vie suppietnentary charge ^ t Printing for the Hose of Cr-- , ouni, dark 'eft pe sent Session. On the Re:x.lll6ml for granting €1.0,q00 to defray the expenses of the Gold Coinats— The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. said, the riot 0:k the Estituates was to defray ;h.: expenses of coining. a large quantity of Gold in course of the summer,- 01 the luppositioa that same quantity would be coined for nine muaths.l%,.: quantity would be £i.,30:),00;). Mr. I'ONSONI3I' washed to kno , .v whe.er M;ni. stern, in the next :k.ssion, meaa to take any s:rpilt , t• putting the curre nc y o f I rv i ac d on t h e s .. tkie too::::;;; as that of England ? The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER replied, that Ike - had the most confident hope that he should be able to call in the currcric 7 of Irish shillings; bin whether the assimilauoh of dill.the currency teo•T'A be attankable, was a point on v.h:cik he could act row give it decided opinion. He war ready, however, to admit, that the subject was ow of very great in: • portance. - On the Resolution be:np; tr.td for a gran: 9f for defraying the expenses of rrpaiiing and maintaining the British Forts on the coast of Africa. Mr. GORDON strenuously tee.m.inenJed a PAP! change w the system of tho,e est:RAC:menu. • The Report of the Committee of which he bad been for two years a Member, tra: not yet printed, but be could state that they had r::senanierided such u change to the consideraticn of Government, in crJer that a more legitimate system o, commerce might introduced amongst the nativer. The comtoeite, which now consisted ciietly of palm oil and ivory. WAS not very extensive, but rolght be made muJi more so by reducing the duty of! palm nil to the slaw footing as that on tallow. Witi l r e spect to ivory, the duty was so heavy that only 1ar,.;.• te,All were suoitht for, while if it wete reduced, the people would c. , 1-lect lect small teeth. lie thought the Freavnt gran: thrown away ; but it it-to,4eN) were }l ranted, and Government were to make the c!.ie! Cape Coast Castle, a considerable increase of traao and civiiization would ensue, particularly with tits Ashantevs, through whom only we cowl hope toot- Lain any wither knowledge of the interior of A:rc:l- . Mr. Aft i' LINO I' testified the inclonation ot Government to pay all possiYl atteatico w the re commendation of the Cornmetee. Mr. GORDON said : it: unz:erstood the Seciet of the African C.Jinc , : . .y had excites; h inssaf Ili manner that did hit: ; ;teat I:unte : • aaptds wh ever future arrarne .ento loam:, that G •- verottleat would «wail aratulvei of Ls tel .