Star. — London, England, 1822-03-09 00:00:00

- I- --- 11 amminewomimm i ts found that in gem foveign.cbuatei the highest adulation. - -- • Mr. RICARDO TOW to say. Bank of England was brong)skunder of the House, he conside;ed it his its conduct as he thoaght fit. Witt Bank Directors, he never meant to Cation on their detect*: he was ' full credit for their motives • but he however thought that the establishment had fed the country into many difficulties. The Bill passed in 1798 would not have been injurious to the country if they had known the true principle on which to act; they issued too great a quantity of paper, which had been, in a great mea sure. the cause of many calamities that ensued. In 1819 they committed an error, which they acknow ledge I themselves; they were !willing to lend 4,000.0001. confessing at the time that it was a greater quantity than was necessary, which aggra vated the evil; if they .thought they could issue 4,000.0001. whether in paper or coin, and keep a circulation in the country, they were much mistaken. The circulation of this country could not absorb an additional sum of 4 4 000,0001, and therefore must have gone abroad. It was his opinion that, the course the Bank pursued was injurious to the country, and therefore he had a right to animadvert on it. Mr. GURNEY said the country was in extreme distress firm the conduct of the Bank. Mr.'MABERLY said his object seemed to have been misunderstood. The Bank of Englind afteady received a large sum for the management of the pub lic Imoney-3401. and 3601. for every million over 60 millions. If Ireland received 20001. far every million, it was still a larger remuneration; and the object of his motion was to ascertain if it werethe case, by the production of the necessary papers. Mr. MONCK began by saying that he believed the Bank of England acted witha full knowledge of their own interests. On the suspension of cash payments the Bank had eight millions in circulation, they then issued a paper circulation to the amount of thirty three millions. The increase depreciated the 4rrency as to gold 25 per cent. and, as to all other eommo dities, 50 per cent. During the suspension of cash payments they lent large sums to Government in a depreciated currency, and they now called upon Go vernment to repay them in the restored currency.— In 1797 Bank Stock was only 120 per cent. and now it was 280 per cent. No establishment ever made such an immense profit as the Bank of England; and such profit could not be obtained unless at the expense of the country. For those reasons he could not bear to hear such applause bestowed on the Bank Mr. WILSON said, if the restriction had not taken place the country could not have gone on; he thought the war could not have been carried on without rt. It enabled the country to put forth all its energies to sustain it. The Bank could not be fairly charged with mismanagement, as they were backed in all , their views by Government. Mr. M ANNING rose, and said that no comparison could he fairly instituted between the two Banks.— ' Though the Bank of Ireland charged nothing speci fically for the management of the public money, yet the difference between 3 and 5 per cent. gave it a large remuneration. If the Bank of England re ceived the same per centage, it would readily manage the public money for nothing, and gain considerably by it. Instead of receiving but £8,140, it would have received an addition of £40,000 if it had charged S per cent. on every loan. He did not wish to throw any imputation on the Bank of Ireland ; so far from it, he wished, with all his heart, prosperity to that establishment, and all the other institutions of that country. Mr. GRENFELL said, that he was aware of the fact that the Bank of I. eland received 5 per cent. and the Bank of England 3 per cent. for all advances to Government; and he complained that Government I giving so much to the Bank of Ireland was no justi- I fication of what they gave to the Bank of England ; he thought either too great a remuneration. Ile could assure the Directors that he meant nothing per sonal to them ; they were no further interested than as to the amount of their qualifications ; but he really thought the measures adopted by the establishment injurious to the country beyond all example. From the time the charter was granted down to 1797, the interest never amounted to more than 7 per cent. but the advantages to the Bank subsequently were very great,which materially injured the country ; and that he would state, though he was a partaker of those advantages derived from an increase of interest.— Besides, in consequence of the advantages derived from the Restriction Bill, there was an improvement of the capital of the Bank to the amount of thirty millions ; that increase of capital, added to the 7 per cent. left an immense profit. That fact he would challenge any of the Directors to disprove. Much had been said of the services of the Bank during the war, but he could not imagine how it was entitled to it ; it never made any advance without receiving a handsome interest. He thought it ridiculous in the Bank to assume to itself any merit for carrying on the war, while at the same time it was advancing its own interests. An Hon. Director referred to a Reso lution entered into by the Directors, in vvhieh it was stated they had no hesitation in saying they were in a situation to resume cash payments if the political state of the country admitted it. Though he had been a Member of Parliament twenty years, and whenever the continuation of the Restriction Act was proposed, voted against it, yet, on no occasion, up to 1819, was thereto be found a single Director on his side. So far from :hewing a disposition to resume cash payments, they fought against it to the last. The Resolutions were then agreed to; also-similar MS for England. NAVY FIVE PER CENTS. BILL. Mr. LUSHINGTON moved the Order of the Day for the farther consideration 'of the Report of the Navy Five per Cents. which being accordingly read. he then moved that the Bill be recommitted. Mr. TIERNEY said, he could see no reason why they should not then proceed with the Report. He had some observations to make on the subject, and was then willing to proceed. Mr. LUSHINGTON said, he felt unwilling to take the business on himself, in the absence of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer; but, if it was the pleasure Of the House, he would go on. Mr. TIERNEY said, that he had some sugge s ti ons to act on the clauses of the Bill, which could not wisoritlivapeet which the Parliament had, by the Act of 1797, over the 5 per Cents. in the way of ?educing the interest, or paying them off. until 25,000.000 L of the Na. tional Debt had been recleaned. That objection did not occur to himself ; but he confessed that, since it was started, the more he. considered it, the more doubt and difficulty he felt in coming to any decision on it. The Act of 1797 had made provision for dif ferent kinds of Stock. It provided for some in the 3 per cents. NM in the 4 per cents. and for some in the 5 per cents. By that Act, the S and, 4 per cents: might be at any time redeemed, but the-5 per cents. were not to be paid of until 35400,0001. of the Na tional Debt bad been first redeemed and paid of— He was not able to glee any opinion on that point himself, but he would suggest it to the consideration' of the House, by whom et ought to be noticeJ, and not passed by sulraileodie. In considering the enact ments of that Bill, he was well aware it would be contended, in reply to that objection, that a much larger sum bad been redeemed and paid .off since that period. He was aware that the sushi redeemed by the Commissioners for redeeming the National Debt would be said to be paid off; but the sum 'standing in the names of the Commissioners could not be said to be paid off. If they were paid off, they would be at the disposal of Parliament. But the Debt redeemed by the Commissioners was not, he lap:nehended, at the disposal of Parliament, within the spirit and meaning of the Act of 1797. The words '0 paid off" struck him the more, because he could not call the Stock redeemed by the Commis. . • 14 paid off." He admitted that he had no die. tinct knowledge of that objection. but he than ht the House ought to have it explained. But the plan proposed for paying off the holders of that Stock was objectionable on different grounds. In Mr. Pelham's time, whom the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exthequer. professed to imitate, the holders of the Stock which he wished to reduce had the choice of being paid off according to the agreement origi nally made at the creating of that Stock. The Right Hon. Gentle.nan then went into a history of that f transaction, and contended that no holder was then paid off but according to • the terms of the original agreement. He himself would give nnopinion upon the principle of the plan, for he had none to give.— He did not wish any observations he could make to excite any false hopes through the country, but he thought the House should consider it. But it was absurd to compare the present plan with the plan of Mr. Pelham. He had adverted to the hit,ory of that -transaction, and he found nothing more dissimilar: It was suggested in the King's Speech to his Parlia went, that they should be watchful to improve any opportunity of putting the National Debt into a me thod of being reduced; with a strict regard to public faith and private property. The Address of the House was, of course, a re-echo of the King's Speech. Mr. Pelham soon after brought in his Bill, which held out no threat, no compulsion, but even invited the holders to a choice of taking their money or the new Stock at the reduced interest. He proposed that those who were holders of the 4 per cents. should, if they thought proper to assent to the plan, have 4 per cent. for one year, which was 1750, and should have Si per cent. for seven years after—namely, to 1737, their Stock to be irredeemable during that period ; but they were to have only S per cent. from 1757 out. Mr. Pelham made the proposal to the holders to that effect, without compulsion or threat ; and by giving seven years until he should come to the re duced rateof interest, Mr. Pelham meant to let down the holders as easily as possible from the high rate of interest, which was very different from the plan pro posed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He, however, did not mean to say that the Right Hon. Gentleman was doing anything illegal. All persons purchasing in the 5 per cents. should have known that that Stock was liable to redemption ; but, notwithstanding that, he could not but regret the situation in which they were placed, in respect to the short period which was to be given them to make a choice. Mr. Pelham gave three months to the holders of the 4 per cents. in his time, to consider whether they would assent to his proposal or not. At the end of that period a large proportion of the holders came in and assented, hut the large Companies (the South Sea Company and the East India Company) still held out. To those Mr. Pelham said that it was not right they should have the same advantages as those who declared their assent in time. He accordingly refused them the same time which he gave the other holders, and he allowed them but five years notice of being paid off. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer, acting in a very different manner, gave notice, that if the holders did not signify their dissent within sixteen days hi would consider them to have assented. The Right Hon. Gentleman told them that they might dissent they, would, within that time, but, if they were not within that time they were to be taken to have as sented—(Hear!)—which certainly appeared to him a very strange method of proceeding. He (Mr. Tier ney) was as anxious as any man for reducing the in terest of the Debt, if it would lead to a diminution of the burdens of the country. He had the same interest in reducing the interest of the Public . Debt as any other; but he thought that they should act with justice in bringing about that event. The Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) proposed that 41 every holder must give a direct an swer on or before the 16th of the present month ;" and he adds, " If you don't say' No,' within that time, you are to be considered to say Aye'"—(Heer, and a laugh). But there was another clause in the Bill, with regard to Ireland, more extraordinary than the clause he was commenting on. The clause stated that persons possessed of debentures there might be at liberty to convert them into Five per Cent. An. nuities ; and if they did not, within the time limited, signify their dissent, they were presumed to take the 4 per cents. Such a case no one ever heard. A man who held only a debenture, and no Stock at all , would have his debenture ca ncelled; and be obliged to take the reduced interest. But the strongest ob. p iettiells sad the most serious grievance which all felt, dui* snake up their minds; bit the greater part of the Udders of that Stock could not so readily come to a decision. A poor per.,on, who had an annuity of £lOO, or MO, or X 960. was to lose one-fifth of that * aim before he (Wald determine whether it would be More advisable to assent or dissent. He would en deavour to chew sufficient reason for granting more *nes always assuming, on the part of that House, that they meant to act fairly, and that it Wei not in to take any one by surprise: for, if that was , not intended, time enough might be afforded. Who could say what would be the result of the reported differences between the Court of Petersburgh and the Ottoman Porte? He would call their attention to that pa of his Majesty's Speech which adverted to i his nterference in those differences, and his hopes that he could bring them to an amicable adjustment. In the very first paragraph of his Majesty s Speech he addressed his Parliament thus : " I have the satisfaction of informing you that I continue to receive from foreign Powers the strongest assurances of their friendly dispositions towards this country. Ir is impossible for me not to feel deeply beep:Wed in any event that may have a tendency to disturb the peace of Europe. My endeavours have therefore been directed, in conjunction with my Allies, to the settlement of the differences which have unfortunately arisen between the Court of St. Petersburgh and the Ottoman Porte; and I have reason to entertain hopes that these differences will be satisfactorily adjusted." I.—Thas it was clear there were some differences, and that there was a negotiation on foot for the adjust ment of those differences. All knew what effect that circumstance bad on the Funds. In the midst of that negotiation two months should be granted in order 10 know the result of those negociations. He meant 'loathing disrespectful to any person, but unless time o eregtven, the thing seemed no better than swindling. If no injury could result from the delay, he could nut conceive the cause of hurrying the Bill. It could not be denied also, that the operation of the Sinking Fund had no influence on the Stocks. But the mode of operation by that was not yet known—(llearl. When the Noble Lord (Londonderry) was asked what he meant by the present Sinking Fund ? the Noble Lord replied, he would answer when that Bill was passed—(Hear). Did the Noble Marquis mean to adhere to the Resolution of the House in 1819, to hold a Sinking Fund of five millions, accumulating at compound interest? But if he did not, then he had no Sinking Fund. They talked of paying off the dissentients, and that in a measure very differ ent from the plan adopted by Mr. Pelham—(Hear). They were to be paid off numerically, and in a man ner to be left open for the consideration of Parlia ment. If the holder dissented he would have a mark at his back ; he would perhaps have his £lOO on the day lollowing, or would be paid as Parliament would settle after. At all events, the dissentients would be numbered, and would be marked for the indignation and wrath of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the &chequer. He (Mr. Tierney) argued the question on the broad principle ; he was not going into the de tails of the lfill. He thought he made out a case to the satisfaction of the House for granting more time. Some decision should be come to between Russia and the Ottoman Empire. Besides that, the high rate of interest was to be paid until July. That was a ma terial point. No saving would be gained to the Pub lic. All the holders were to have the five per cent. interest until July. Nothing could be gained to the Public by hurrying the Bill then and unless Minis ters had some feeling that something would happen to alter the value of - the Stock, they need not refuse to give time. It could not be at present a matter of surprise that persons would be desirous of waiting the event of the negociations which were pending between Russia and Turkey. He said he could-en large on these points, but he feared he occupied the attention of the House too long. The points he wished to be considered were, first, the objection of the L'25,000,000 being necessary to be paid off, which was a question for the consideration of Parliament. The nest was the new mode of taking the assents,' by requiring the dissents, which was different from Mr. Pelham's method. The third was with respect to the time proposed for giving the dissents, and also the manner in which it was proposed to pay off those who dissented. There was one point more: did the Noble Loid (Londonderry) believe what he him self told the House with respect to the prosperity of the country ? If he did he would gain by delay hear!)—but if the Noble Lord knew the contrary was the fact, he, in that case, had some rea son to hurry the Bill. M. LUSHINGTON said no one regretted more thin he did the absence of his Right lion. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he could adequately reply to all the points of theitight Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney). On one point, indeed, he felt it easy to satisfy the Right Hon.,Gentleman. With 'respect to the paying off of the 2.5,000,0001. it would be seen by tke 53d of the late King that 238,000,0001. of the public debt were then declared to be satisfied and discharged. A reference to that Act would be enough to meet that point. He would maintain that there was the greatest similarity in the present plan to the plan of Mr. Pelham, and he would read the history of the transaction, as recorded in Smollett's History of England. The Hon. Gentleman then read the passage, which may be found in the 7th chapter of Smollett's Continuation. The question was, whe ther the terms proposed were consistent with justice and public faith? The holders had an option whether they would take 1081. in the new Stock for each 1001. in the old, or take 1001. in money, according as it might be settled by Parliament. Ample time was given by the Bill to those who were absent from the country. He would submit every clause to the Com mittee, where they would receive full discussion. Mr. ELLICE said that the statement of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lushington) was no answer to the •objections of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Tierney). He would net go into the law of the case. Wheel, in 1813, the House resolved that 238,000,0001. of the National Debt were redeemed, they did that in cem templation of an alteration in the Sinkin Fund, but I It bad Ito reference to the Act of 1797. t appeared 044 glys - speettlatiOny suppose • preen residing in Scotland t• hold wine of th a e llsoshcit was necessary be should make up his mind souse days before the.espiration of the limited peri o d, w Turkey, or walaenynews arrived partnf then from the nti natussinna the last day, a person residing in London, who need n o t It in his dissent before, would have the adva ntage , It was the Bill, then, and the want of time in it, th at gave room for speculation. Mr. Pelham gave ample time to consider, when there could be little difficiilty lin coming to a determination. Many difficuliies sed now, and sufficient time ought to be given. He wished to know what rrovision was made in case two firs more, who held Stock jointly, differed, and that on e assented but the other dissented ? Were they to go WO . Chancery ? But he did not see the P's lic would gain anything by the plan. On account of the bonus of five per cent. there would be no more the a saving of one million in eight years—(Hear, hear)._ He thought more would be gained by a different mode of reducing the Debt. If, in imitation of Mr. Pelham, four and a half per cent. were given for a limited period, and then four per cent. without any bonus, but with more time to consider, something might be gained. But why be in such haste? The first dividentl would not be until S in. 1823. If more time were given, it would bd more creditable to the Country, and more just towards the holders. With Inspect to the benefit to be derived from the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan, it was like his plan of a Sinking Fund: he borrowed with one hand to lend with the other. Mr. GRENFELL said, he regretted to diTer in opinion from his Right lion. Friend (Mr. Tiernecl, and he could not but feel diffident in expressing his want of concurrence in the sentiments of his Right Hon. Friend. He approved of the measure in plia ciple as well as in detail. He could not agree that there was any legal difficulty in the way of the Bil', with respect to the condition mentioned by his Right Hon. Friend. That condition Ire considered as amply fulfilled by the paying of of any of the twenty-fi%e millions of the Debt. He trusted, however, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would explain the pre sent measure, by a Resolution similar to that adopted in the course of Mr. Pelham's measure. The question was, whether this Bill could be adopted consicently with the principles of good faith ? and he(Mr. Gren fell) asserted that it could. He thought more time should have been given fcr dissent, but with that ex ception he had nothing to object to the measure. It had been said, thift it might have been made in a way more advantageous to the Public. He (Mr. Grenfell) was quite satisfied with it as to the extent the Public would be benefitted by it, and he hoped a similar arrangement, as much to the public advan tage, would be made again. Mr. TIERNEY explained, that he had not meant to object to the principle of the measure, but to the mode in which it was executed. Mr. HUSKISSON said, he had not been aware that the legality of the measure would be called in question, and therefore was not so well prepared as he otherwise should have been to shew the Iv mind lessness of any such objection. But he was perfectly satisfied in his own mind that no douLt could be sup ported of that description. As to the right of Parlia ment to pay off the Navy Five per Cents. Stock, his Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had referred those who questioned that right to the 37th of the late King, which declared that that Stock should not be paid off till twenty-five minions of the National Debt should have been liquidated. He ad mitted there might be many constructions ', A ced upon that condition ; but, unless it was meant to be contended that it signified that this Stock should not be paid off till the Public Debt had been reduced 25 millions below what the amount then was, no other construction that could be placed on it would enable :hem to make out a case, chewing that the condition of the Act had not been fulfilled in the present measure.— But the Hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. Ellice) ad mitted that he did not think so extraordinary a con dition was meant to be annexed to this operation.... But then it was contended, that the operation of bor rowing with one hand and paying off with another did not constitute an actual redemption of debt on which to justify the operation, according to the in tention of the particular Act in question; for it was said. that that which increased the Debt could never be interpreted into a bona fide reduction. Admitting this, fur the sake of argument, he was prepared to shew that twenty-five millions had been paid off without the aid of borrowing. The way in ‘.hich this had been done, he conceived to have been done by the Land Tax Redemption Bill—(Hear, hear!). — They were. therefore, reduced to the neces,ity of contending that the Act bound them' to hold the Navy Five per Cents. inviolate till twenty-five mil lions had been reduced below the amount of Debt existing in 1792, or any operation tothat effect. He (Mr. Huskisson) did not think the Act would bear that construction. He thought the conditions of the Act had been fulfilled to the utmost; and that there could be no question as to their right to carry the present measure into effect. The next objection was to the time, and the mode of the measure, and with reference to this, the Hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. Ellice) had made a most extraordinary proposi-' tion. He said, that at the end of seven years, only one million would be saved by the proposed measure. If the Honourable Member adverted only to the no minal amount of the Debt—to the capital—and put out of sight the amount of annual burden which that capital imposed upon the nation, then there might be some truth in the proposition. But in what light did it appear, when it was clear that this operation had the. effect of forthwith diminishing their burdens to the extent of I,soo,oool.annually—(Hear, hear) — at the same time that it did not interfere with the Sinking Fund ] nor affect the public credit ? If they were to keep up the Sinking FuGd, keep public faith; and at the same time remit taxation, they could not do so without adding to the National Debt ? Tao . . . - . • 77.77;44,7:7'" . ' - • , `""7.1"7"7:777717757147777. - z - . ~ • • . . . • • ? , . . • . . • . .. .. • . , • • toe se wen tlista t i vre il a, - , ... *WO . 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