Star. — London, England, 1817-02-08 00:00:00

. . afoot ides of the House. tie wished the *tat too to be viewed not us one of Parliatisentart con test, btu as one in which all parties should unite to ascertain the best means of serving the public inte rest. Ht W4b so convinced of the importance of on i o n, that t!ie two sides of the House sheold have G ., differs ce, if it were possible, f any concession ills pat t, to prevent it. He should not, therefore, on the appointutent of a Committee by ballot, it hat mode we.. ';ely to lead to an unnecessary, 0 ..4 at this mon.:nt, an inexpedient division of seen talents. Before submitting his motion to the i louse, a nd r eading the list of names of the persons whom be should propcae as Members of 'the Committee, he shou!d . lain the tr ,, de in which he thought, that c a r:. • should be composed. It was the opinion f many that it should only contain persons nocon netted with either side of the House. But he must t an, mat he should feel embarrassed to find 21 Members who had not some partiality for either side I lie knew there were some that would ict with the host e‘itnplere impartiality ; but he had not observed oat ti , the specimens were very numerous, or treated with any peculiar respect by the Gentlemen opposite. ,y ea r, hcar, and lanslsier)—There was, in tact, no ciao id men more reprobated than those who at tempt-A to set up an independent opinion on any sub bear).—He, therefore, candidly pro fessed to discard that visionary project of a Com mittee ent.rtly composed out of that pure and rare tact of mortals.—(Hear, hear, INsd larghter).—Al though he was not disposed to share with the Ho storable Gentlemen their indisposition towards that particular class of men, he went with them to a cer. pin extent.—(!Lear, hear).—He did net believe that public affairs would be better managed, if no party whatever existed in the House. It was, on the con trary, to that happy conflict of parties, overruled by the Constitution, and kept down by a principle of duty, that the wisdom of National Councils, and the porky of the Country were due. It was on this principle that he wished to appoint a Committee to sift every subject of inquiry to the bottom. He was convinced that until the public mind of the country should be satisfied, and by the public mind he did not mean that violence which talked of reform and brought revolution, but the sober sense of the people of Eng land—he was convinced that until that sober sense was satisfied that every subject had been duly inveatigated, and every proper measure adopted, the country would not be sn ready to come forwatd in support of its Governmt in, through the di ffi culties of the times. He did not wish to exclude office from the Committee.-- lc be wrong that it should preponderate so far as to have an une.air influence over the votes of the Members; but as well might a Judge on the Bench decide without Counsel on a case of law, as a Coon- try Gentleman he able to understand the important points to be elucidated, without persons in official siluatieins to furnish him with the necessary informa tion. He had attempted to compose his Combinee within certain limits, of the best and most experienced talents in 'the House, and of a part of those wl.o were unconnected with isflice i and would probably mai° so, eves should time be no changed Govetument. But he trusted the House would not rest satisfied with the operation: of the Committee, and.abdicate its rights so far, as not to pursue the infinity, after they should have made their mutts. The ihttlf of the Com: titer: would, in fact, to itTi gl subjects, and to prepare them for the notice and the discussion of the House. But it was not to twenty-one Gentle men alone, that the settles/mut of SUMS en important should be resigned. It was ,on theme grounds Ite "meld found the proposition which he bad to Make to the House. And he hoped both sides would thew an equal disposition, not to obtain triumphs over each other,. but to fulfil their duty. and render their best exertions fbr the advantage of their coun try. The objects which be should wish to sefer to' the Committee, would be the charge and the capon dibue for the last year, for the present and for the am This inquiry should not be confined within the compass of the present Session. It might emend to the next and to another, until the House. had honestly brought the country to a peace establish ment, rounded on gradual reductions.— (Hear. limn) For the present, he thought it proper not to embrace a wider field than the three years which be had men toned. It would always be open to any Gentleman co the Committee, to raise a question beyond the b wits now set to the investigation. He then moved, "That a Select Committee be, appointed to imoire into the charges and expenditure of the year ending on the sth of January, 1817 ; and also to state the• probable charges and expenditure, so far as they may be at present estimated, of the years 1841 and 181 9, and to report the same, with their observations thereupon; and also to report what offices might be abolished, and -.bat salaries diminished, without any detriment to the public service." He then proposs4 that the Committee should consist of the fall wing Members Tbe Claw:sass sir the Zed*. Mr. Pesuldued spier Mr. tinsidesen • lir. Pu, sonby Mr. Calesee • Mr. b.n.kes Mr. Carmel& Mr. C. Loos • Mr. Devise Giddy Mr. Toomey Mr. fiellerd bad Binning Mt. Edward Littleton Pa,. Sir J. Newman LersiVilve Yttl Mr. Geed Mr. C. IV. Wynne sit ThooseAdeed I Mr. Arbu t h not Lord Casuessess. Mr. TIERNEY began by awning, that the Naile Lord had made a rather flattering statement of the expenditure, but bad entirely overlooked the means by which it was to be met. However. be had, eapremed a wish to have the subject probed to the bottom, and be was heartily glad to bear it. He bad on a former °cession stated. that 145,400.0 00 was all that could be raised last year, and now, if the whole of the Sinking Fund were kea, thane would still be a deficienci to a considerable amount. True it was, that there was no difference in figures between himself and the licole Lord, though their multi were different ; but he (Mr. Tierney) t ••ik the Gal-, eery means. and the Noble Lord might :poking to extraordinary uses when be wko 01 the ability of the country to meet the demands upon it. He look the taxes as they were now levied, and to be colleeted as they were now ; and if the Noble Lord looked to nothing further, he was surprised how th e di ffere n ce Could atlas between them. Irith suspect to dM Slap. lug Fund, be was. one of those who thought it thenitt remain untou c h e d. He should be the last man in rho Howe to sanction any measure which aback* * sttoy its ; the faith of the cousin was pledged to . its pieserVitiofi, aóã he should sleek regret the loss of character, and the mischief to the country which Elitist emir; W -it we* resorted to for the seritite of the year (Hear, !sear, hear.) =s- But how was this to sitttildetit--Why, by retrench ment and adolitinn, hear, 1 and he 111 glad to find that Ministers waned to de at last impressed with the necessity of the ease. The recommenda tion, and the exarhple of retrebehment, came Litt, certainly; he did. not sheen to ray from Ile Priebe Regent, but from his Ministelote him. (Hear, har.) Had it beep done twelve rnonthi ago, he was satis fied that much of the discdntent and distrait Which noir prevailed would have been saved to she coml. try.—(Hear, hear.) It appeared, too, that there was to bemuse reduction in the salaries a the bightr public officers, he rejoiced to beu it; bat was it not strange, that a measure calculated to render his Ma jesty's Ministers so very popular, had not bees brought forward much earlier ? Why did they delay it till pressed by the complaints of the people, and the alarming (Ennis is which the country was involved ? But the Noble Lord says. as Act of Parliament will be necessary to authorise the reductions intimated to the House. He recollected, Sir James Pulteney gave op his salary without an Act of Parliament, and why was an Act necessary now ? —(Near, kw). — The Noble Lord had instanced the reduction of 17 millions in the taxes last year, in proof of the dispo sition if Government to moonier, and boasted of the surrender of the Property Tax ; but Ministers had not given up the sum stated, till they were absolutely compelled to it by the votes of that House—(Near, limier.) Such facts were the best answer to the Peti tioners for ROOM in Parliament. They need Dent mind Boroughtnongers and the like, when the Re. presentation was sufficient to destroy a, measure like the Property Tax, to which the Gentlemen opposite clung with so much fondous—(hear, hear,) —and he trusted the House would persevere in the same spirit to do its duty to the country, and insist upon every practicable retrenchment in every department. He now came to speak of the Committee. The new mode which the Noble Lord has adopted, 'thews that be has learned something by the experience of a for mer evening'. He is not disposed to lave another ballot result read to the House before the lists were given in —(Near, asid larzheer.) This they had been told was an old joke of Mr. Sheridan, but meet was an &ilk*. played off with so much effect—(flan.) It was pretty evident that his old friends would not support another ballot j so the Noble Lord comes forward, with an air of great candour, and tells the House he gives it up.—(Hari hear.) The Idomosit tee now to be adopted was similar to that which was proposed by his Noble Friend last year, to examine into the expenditure and income of the year. So fat it was entitled to supports but it ought not to take the business of retrenching offices and making reduc tions along with it; if so, it would be like a dragnet for all kind of grievances, and the House would never see it above water again.---(Haar, hear.) He ob• served, that there had been a Board of Commis sioners appointed to examine into useless offices last year. Why was not their Report upon the tabfeY— (Neer, MO There was so much shoaling in the measures proposed by his Majesty's Ministers upon a g slabject. that he bad oo madam in any thing did. The Committee be waotailotd_wtOch. he to have, - if possible, should have full powe to examine into all public offices, and to report all that were useless, or paid extravegiuitly. In • there ought to be three Committees for the porpoise one to examine the Military Establishment, compre hending the Staff and Commissariat, another the Co. lonial. and a third the Civil bepartment.—(Near.) The Noble Lord bad said, this ought not to be re garded a piny qoesdon. If he meant that it was one in which persoos holding offices ought not to in terfere, he (Mr. Tierney) agreed with him. He was thoroughly convinced thet party was Mendel io the welfare of the country. He had always been a party man, and always should remain so. He felt that the present question shoold not be treated, however, as a cosiest for office, though party feeling would have a beneficial influence in the investigation. The ascea dewy of either side of the House. was not the object of the discussion, but the permanent interests of the country.--(liser,• hear).—The Noble Lord had a pressed himself very angry with a set of persons who were of no party, and who were therefore, as it seem ed to his Lordship, good for nothing-=but be (Mr. Tierney) thought the Noble Lord treated these poor Neutrals a great deal too roughly.--(llran hear, aid krigherr).—Mere proper persons •he could not con-1 ceive for Committees such as that for which the Noble Lord now moved. Although these Gen tilesa were now treated with indignity, he recol• hued that some few yeas since, when a conflict ;tau power was w is that Home, the Neutrals jibed one of the a ce l lligerents, and were placed on lihe staff immediately..—(teed eel remehted heashier). The Noble Lord said, that these Neutrals were treated unterinamionsly, and with contempt at all times, reir. l i a e ll ey pasti: a s 4 , h i lt steep was not • the fa Meads. axva . t : th r o e s so, Mt when they traded under false colours-- (Lerehrir)—for, with whatever flag they.started on' the , they always carried other oboes in sties' bold, so • whenever they came in contact wish a esemy—(Loq maim laseiter).—Astatir VMS. read over by the Noble - Lord, there was OW that struck him as peculiarly improper for such *Mk. He could hardly expect that those who held offices, would be ready to recommend the abolition of them, however useless they might be; the,r was one of the Joint-Paymaren named a‘engle whom be thought objectionable on this ground. for to him it appeared that the office which that Gentle-' man held was totally ueslem—(fisor, hear) .—The Noble Lord - bad spoke of the propriety of' Mein men in office on the Committee, us order that it may be pithead by their meal. Tie was willing that; they d ' shoul go as Counsel the Committee, but that said the Right honourable Geatlemaa al I wanttbss to sit there before me, and am beside me." (Hoer.) He objectetto those perso . assitting_in the jury-boa. who were deeply interested in the trial —(iher). — &gismo not the awe as Lord Henry Petty's Corn mines ; not a single man-in office was appointed, and. each ought to be the rule to be observed now. He should certainly divide the House an the second Part of the instructions in the Noble Lord's condos. He thought then amid be a roman Committee for the hasiosas at that iasteemon, composed of twill blentbore chilly, who would set about the irorh with the sincere deiiiiitinatioti of rightfainithe isurthens' of their fellow countrymen ; this would satisfy the nation. Let every thing be done honestly, and he. confidently believed that wheteier might be the re sult, the effects upon the pnblie mind would be gra, Rhine and propitiois: It was not merely the re duction of money expenditure that was requisite to, the content and prosperity of the kingdom ; the hi !Nenee cf. the Crown should be brought beck to its constitutional limits; the power which had progres sively grown to such a miithiefrous extent, aiding the 'themes of profligacy and eittrevagance, would fall into its proper magnitude by the reduction of places not requited by the service of the country in her peace establishment. Oa this account he should be glad to see one of the Paymasters reduced, though the othec should receive the four thousand pounds now enjoyed between them both. (Hear, hear!) — He was desirous of being informed whether the Civil ) List was to be submitted to the Coninkluee, ape sally the 4th class of it, in which the Prince Regent has thou personal interest. —(Ther i basr.) Were two Courts, one' at Windsor and the other an London, still to be kept up ? he could not see that the comfort of the Sovereign required it, and there would be suf ficient splendour in the Royal establishment, and more satisfaction among the people, if one were re duced. But even if it should be found expedient to continue both, it then became a question, whether so many officers of the Crown should hold seats in that House ? Why, the fact was, that 60 persons holding direct places from the Crown were Members of the House of Commons.--(Herr, Lear, haw.) He did not say that they became necessarily corrupt, or that, their votes were less independent than those of other Gentlemen, but it was a symptom not very favoura ble to the Nation's hopes of impartiality and inte grity--(llsar, kw.) Let this number be taken from the division upon - questions, and the votes would speak the sentiments of the country with much less doubt and suspicion. If a Committee were to ex amine into the manner in which the influence of the Crown extended in that House, it would shew many of the Minister's majorities to be mere mockeries. Last year the Hoise refused a Committee oo Income and Expenditure, and he could not help thinking the House bad deeply disgraced itself. This year they agree to vote one. but then if it were not separated in the objects to which it was to be applied, it would be little better than useless and nugatory. He had at ready stated the kind of Committees which he thought 1 necessary, he called upon the 'Noble Lord to support `him when he brought forward the measure, if he was Lanxious to meet the expectations and the wants of the country—(Neer. hear.) The CHANCELI.OR ou t the EXCHEQUER slid, it was impossible to dispense with o ffi cial men in the Committee, especially no Colonial affairs ; but it was unnecessary for him .to trouble the House on that subject now, as be should, have an opportunity of going more at large into the subject, when the fight Hon. Gentleman brought forward his promis vii motion. With respect to the tardy measures of retrenchment proposed by his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, as therhad been styled, be could enure the Right Hon. Gentleman and the Heme t that, till last year, the Civil List was not adequate to.the demands on it, and that his Royal Highs's" bad embraced the fitst °pretest , of Would" teati that be 1r to empowered to take the lead in that 'Met of retreuchment which it was hoped would be followed up by others.—(Crier ( Honesdale: krigh iq.)—He satertained no doubt but that' the Gentle men in offices would readily join in those sacrifices which his Majesty's Ministers were prepared•to make. The Right Hon. Gentleman had formed such an estimate of the income and expenditure of the coun try as was in many respects deserving of great praise; that though his account of income was accurate in the main, he certainly had mistaken some of the charges on it, especially in relation to the Irish revenue, which m ade a difference of three millions. It should also be recollected, that the expenditure of last year included a deficit in the navy estimates to the amount of a million. He would take the failure of 10 per cent. as the average failure of the public audit for the preceding year ; but then die House must take into its consideration the badness of the harvest, as bad seasons had always more or less af fected the state of the public revenue. With respect to the third branch, it must be a great satisfaction to reflect, that notwithstanding the anticipation of taxes by Exchequer Bills, a large reduction bad taken place in the public debt, tri the amount of 20 mil , lions in the last twelve meths. The unfunded debt of Great Britain had not increased, but the unfunded debt of Ireland bad increased three millions • but. upon the whole. our unfunded debt had dec reased 10 millions. Here, then, was a ground for public hope, which the House had some reason to rejoice in, after all the difficulties they had surmounted, while future opportunities would occur for probing the sys tem, if it were radically bad. Mr. GRENFELL wanted to know whether there existed any Sinking Fund this year except by money borrowed by the. State ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that be eipected and hoped a considerable sum would bevaid off on the actual debt. He took our income at £12,080.000, which would exceed our expenditure by £1,400,000. Mr. SHAW wished to know from the Right Ho nourable Gentleman whether the Home was to us derstand that the Sinking Raid was to go to the ex penses of the country, or be still applicable to the ex tinction of the 'Milk debt ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he should repeat what he bad frequently said, that the*Sioking Fund should be applied to the par. pose for which it had been originally intended. Sir CHARLES MONCK observed, that the Chan. celloruf the Exchequer seemed to represent the Sink ing Fund as applicable to the service of the year, for die purpose of shewing that there was an excess of in ane. amounting to more than £1,400,000. Mr. BRAND said. no man could lament mere than be did the turbulence that had lately manifessed itself in the country; but whether it was likely tube speedily appeased, past greatly, depend on the mea ner to which the plan now proposed by the Noble Lord was carried into eff.ct. He strongly objected to the mode in which the Committee was intended to be appointed. He thought that no Member holding a sinecure of an offi •W under the Crown. should be a member Of it. If the plan of the Noble Lord were submitted to a •fair, Committee; impartially causes hi the tioliee=a C.oilmiitie in which the people could repose full confidence, nothing could tend more to quiet the fears of one part of the people, and reconcile the rest to the Goiernment. But the fact was, that the people placed no confidence in thtt Gentlemen on the opposite ride of the House. pflitr titularly whenever they spoke of rttrenchmept or economy; because last year they made warm pike; siors to that effect, and had not kept their word.... There was at that moment on the table of the House a proposal for continuing a sinecure office of 14,00 a-year, which office a Finance Committee of that House had described as one which ought not to 10 continued. When the people recollected that last year A and scandalous job, under the name of the Vice treasurership of Ireland, had been created merely for the purpose of patronage, and when thh year the) found that the useless and unnecessary of fice of Clerk of the Pells in Ireland was to be coati need at a salary of 114,000 a-year, what confidence coullthey place in the professiens of Ministers who committed such acts of profusion? The Honourable Member concluded with moving an Amendment, chic effect of which was to appoint a Committee, from which all pons holding offices should be excluded, and that the Committee should, from time• to time, report their opinion to the House, as to the best means of diminishing the public expenditure, and of le- Geeing the country from its meant distresses. Mr. GIPPS supported the Amendment. Lord CASTLEREAGH. —The Amendment mov ..1, Would, by excluding men in office from the Committee, take away from ft all the practical bene fit the country might expect to derive from its labours. Mr. TIERNEY thought it would be better to let this Committee pass quietly, and appoint another Committee hereafter, if it should be found necessary. Mr. BROUGHAII said, the Noble Lord seemed to wish to make it a Committee of Accounts, but what the House and the country wanted was a Com mittee for inquiring into the means of reduction.— The present was an attempt, under the mask of in laity; to extinguish inquiry. The Noble Lord had resolved to embarrass and protract their proceedings, by dining among them the enormous mats of the whole expenditure of the last year, and the probable expenditure of the year to come. It was an investi gation more fitted to occupy a Committee of Ao. countants than of Legislators. He had already ren tondos a prediction, which was borne out by the result ; and if he was how to hazard another, he would pronounce, from the names before them, that a difference would arise upon the very firu proposi tion between the Noble Lord and his Right Ho nourible Friend (Mr. Tierney) if he attended the Committee—that, upon•that proposition a vote would, coasequently, tabs place, ; which would ter minate favourably to the Noble ,Lord. (Hear.)—. The first matter for consideration would be, that they should proceed to examine the voluminous accounts submittted ; so that three months must elapse before any report could be made, and then it would come forth in the shape of a balance drawn out for the use of the House. But that was not what the country wanted s they wanted reduction—and they wanted that the question of reduction should be kept clear of any ether sobject.—(Heer, hear.)—To that view they would continue fixed until the House thought to meet and satiety their just expectations.— 111 17g er eosld onlybe effected by a separate investigation, carried on in another Committee. By that menus they might hope to come to a fair decision how far sinecure places, useless offices, and unmerited pensions, could be dispensed withs 'and how far the patronage of the Crown, increased to adangerous extent by the existence of such abuses, might be' limited and controlled.— The question of Patrodbge was one of considerable importance, .particularly at this time, when the taxes were wrung from the people with the utmost difficulty, and when the patronage of the Crown was such as to enable a bad Government to support itself under circumstances in which even a good Government would have found it difficult.—(Hear, hear.) It was necessary that the people should be satisfied, and that Parliament should redeem its pledge. The Noble Lord had offered no argument to the contrary. Al lusion had indeed been made to the Committee of 1806, under the auspices of a Noble Friend of his (the Marquis of Laasdown) not now a Member of that House. It was knows to them all, that when Mr. Biddulph first proposed the appointment of such a Committee, his Noble Friend, who was then at the head of the Finance Department, acceded to it imme diately, and Mr. Biddulph consented to give it out of his own hands into those of his Noble Friend. The objection. stated• against the manner in which his Noble Friend proceeded was, that he did not choose from among the Gentlemen on the other side, when he nominated his Committee—that. be did not look to 'that quarter for the friends of abolitioe, and the enemies of • jobs.o•-(Lead cries of Hear, hear.)—. If he had done so, he would have taken the most ef factual step to defeat the object of the mover. Mr. Biddtdph would never bave.given up his claim to make way for an arrangement of this kind directly in the teeth of his proposition. His Noble Friend, though then Chancellor of the Exchequer, had acted candidly and honestly, and the Committee had done its duty. If be wanted to pronounce their eulogium, he could not express it with greater strength than by stating that, when the present Ministers returned to power, after having excited a base religious C 1403 they took care to put an end to that Committee, and to appoint another-in its place. When the late Mr. Perceval determined on reviving the Committee, the appoiritnient, to say the best of it, took place under the most suspicions circumstances. It was stated to have been very fair. Six Gentlemen were, indeed , taken from one side of the House, a n d s i x from the other, so that numerically considered, they were equal, but when they game to look a lijtle closer the equality disappeared. The six from one side had no offices, the six from the other were Ministers, and it was not diffi. icult to determine by which of those parties the bilk of the remaining nine were likely to be influenced.— The Noble Lord had said that men in office ought to be on the Committee for the purpose of affordi'g information; but how was that necesy when the Committee would have power to send tot persons, papers, anchrecords 3—(lfear, hear, hear.) The Noble Lotd would have to put the question, according to the present coarse, whetger one 01 the individuals sitting in judgment on the cases, should be deprived of his office—(Hear. hoar.) —lt was necesss4r7, under the circumstances of the country, to consider also the propriety of reducing the salaries of all the gre.t