Star. — London, England, 1823-07-03 00:00:00

r ' INIENN. libllimi.... . ft. . . • oneinl:lt9 ahlfrvAtioasStpon thireztramtlinary speech - of the Holt. Me_npher who had just sat down. He had, most unjustl,reWnuiated.ike character of Mr. Com. missioner‘Bigge, who he verily believed was a most kind and honourable person. He had not been tent to that Colony for the mere purpose of eulogising the 'government, but of finding fault where blame - In fairly to be imputed. Mr. FORBES e:iplained that be had no personal knowledge whatever of Mr. Bigge. Mr. R. COLBOItNE explahted. The Petition was thca read. Sir J. MACK iNTosii skid, that he should rise to move that Counsel should on Friday next be heard at the Bar of that House against certain clauses of the Bill. The discussion had certainly been carried for ward with much animation, and with a feeling highly . creditable to those engaged in it. The two Hon. Members who bore a share in that discussion had with the warmest zeal advocated the character of their ab sent friends.—He believed that both were deserving of eulogy. Colonel NI acquarrie be well knew merited it; and it was his belief that Mr. Commissioner Bigge with whom-be was not personally acquainted, was just as respectable and deserving. The only question, however, upon which the House had to determine was, whether the motion now before the House was not deserving of consideration? Were the provisions of that Bill, which subjected the great majority of the inhabitants of New South Wales to transportation at the pleasure of the Governor, so manifestly just and convenient as that the Petitioner should not have an opportunity of being heard against them? (Hear, hear). If the House refused to do so, he must ever consider that determination as one of the most flagrant and aggravated deviations from justice that had ever come within his recollection ; he should enter his pro test in the most unqualified reprobation of such a re fusal of justice. The lion. and Learned Gentleman concluded by moving that the Petitioners should be heard by their Counsel against the Bill on Friday next. Mr.WILMOT-1101tTON observed that as iewould hereafter be in the power of the House to modify the inconveniences complained of when the Bill came before a Committee, he could not perceive the slightest necessity for hearing the arguments of Counsel on the subject. Mr. HUME wished to know if the Bill did not ex ceed the punishment intended by the law? Mr. MARRYArf had every confidence in the purity and intentions of the Colonial Secretary ; but he felt that no possible inconvenience could arise from hearing Counsel. If their arguments were refuted, the Colonial Secretary could come down to the House with a much better grace to ask them to• accede to his proposition. • Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided.—The numbers were— For the Motion Against it 47 60 -13 - Majority On the gallery being re-opened. Mr. MABERLY was presenting a Petition from an . individual who had lost his school, Thomas Hazard, of Queen-street, Edgewire-road. He tom-. plained that be had been arrested on a false chisige:of high treason, which led to the above consequence, and for which loss he prayed reparation. The SPEAKER inquired if the Petitioner asked for money? Mr. MABERLY replied, that he was disposed to think that no such request was ini.ended. The SPEAKER adverted to the terms "reparation of Ms losses, making in the whole 2601." and asked if it'did not imply a request for money ? 'Mr. HUME rose to support the Petition. • The SPEAKER called the Hon. Member to order until the preliminary objection was dispensed with. Mr M A BERLY consented to withdraw the Petition. MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS. A Message from the Lords announced that they had agreed to the London Bridge Bill, the Capital Punishnients Bill, and several private Bills. SHIP SEQUIN. Mr. BUXTON rose, in pursuance of a notice given by. him on a former night, to move that certain pa pers explanatory of the capture of the ship Requin should be referred to a select CoMmittee. He should very briefly advert to the circumstances under which the capture of the ship in question was effected. In the year 1811, in consequence of a succession of vic tories, we became possessed of Bourdeaux. General Beresford was the Governor, and Lord Dalhousie the Deputy-Governor of the place. Mr. Commissary Ogilvie was ordered to take possession of the ships in the river, and he was accompanied by a Clerk of the Governor. They had accomplished the object they had undertaken, and were lemming home, when it was suggested by the Clerk•that they should proceed down the river somewhat further, as merchant ships were occasionally stationed in that remote part of the river. They accordingly proceeded to row down, and came to an angle of the stream, where they perceived two vessels lying, the one a merchantman, and the other a ship of war. The latter was an English ves• sel, and the former an American privateer. When they hail azcertained that one of them was a ship of war, they very naturally despaired of taking it; and for the pre.xrvation of their own safety, they retired behind a narrow neck of land, which was situated near the privateer. They were not, however, stationed for any considerable length of time• in this place, before they ascertained from report that the number of individuals on board the American vessel did not exceed_ more than twenty, and Mr. Ogilvie deter mined to try the chance of making a prize of her. To effect this object be had recourse to large pro mises, and eventually prevailed upon the boat s crew to ondert.ke this daring enterprise. They accord ingly boarded the privateer, and the seamen, believ ing that a. ,much greater force was near at hand, yielded. The Captain, too, soon after came on board and declared his intention. of surrendering.. The ves sel otas.bilought, into .port, the act applabded by the Governor. Arid subsequently praised by Colonel Pon sonby ais4 R..Arbuthnot, and even - by the Duke of \Vellington.. .The Hi:n. Member. contended, that under the circumstances Mr. Ogilvie was entitled to some share of the prize, and in support of that opi• Mon having cited several authorities, he moved that the papers relating to the capture of the ship in ques tion should be referred to a Select Committee. • Colonel KING said that he was on the spot where the transactions alluded to had occurred, and tar 25 years had had the honour of knowing Mr. Ogilvie. He assisted with him in the Peninsula; and if 'zeal, v.eq diligence, and love of imintry..were of any value, .they weft possessed by him Itt,.iii .eminent degree.' The Honourable Member here. proceeded to read a laudatory letter from General Ponsonby upon the high characterf Mr. "'Ogilvie, and..alsa.one from General Stuart, puticulatly as to the capture of the Jain, in the G.tronne. There was a similar letter Toth Genera/ D'Urban as to the meritorious services of Mr. Ogilvie during the whole of the Peninsular war. He (Colonel King) wished it had fallen to some abler hand's to advocate the claims of his friend ; but he hoped they would not be lessened by his feeble ness. He only appeared before them for justice in the case of a valuable officer. He wished no extra- . , vagant waste of money—he sought no compensation for fictitious inventions—or appeared before them with spurious claims like P7incess Olive; he came' alone to obtain the reward due to merit. Ile was persuaded that if the Government knew Mr. Ogilvie they would not withhold from him that which was his due. He hoped that the adage of might over coming right would not be realized in this case, but that the individual's right would be conceded to him. Mr. Ogilvie saw an enemy's flag, he brought it down, and he should obtait't whatever emolument was at tached to it. Mr. Ogilvie had a large family ; but that, perhaps, was not a consideration of a public na ture.. Yet he put it to the 1-louse whether a merito rious officer was now to be sent adrift and unre- warded, after rendering so many years of service to his country ? He had'heard, but he could scarcely believe it, that this claim was opposed b 7 that most illustrious Commander the Duke of Wellington. He knew the high character of that great Chief, and .he hoped Mr. Ogilvie would have his support. He thanked the House for the attention with which they had heard him, and cordially seconded the Motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, in opposing the motion he by no means wished to say anything against the conduct apd merits of Mr. Ogilvie as a Commissary. For that office and those services be was paid, and the question here was, whe ther he, individually, was entitled to the full amount of the capture of his ship ? When the capture was made, Mr. Ogilvie was a Commissary on duty; there was a British force of 10,000 men in Boardeaex ; and besides, it was very clear that this vessel was p in fact, impounded. She was skulking to avoid detection; and though Mr. Ogilvie had great merit for his ever ' dons, still the vessel could not escape. Mr. Ogilvie was entitled to nshare of prize-money according to his rank as a Major in the Army, and he received his fair proportion. All the various booty taken in the•l Campaign was valued and estimated at eight hundred thousand pounds, which was granted by Parliament in lieu of all captures so made, and. Mr. Ogilvie had 'his share paid him. The question, therefore, was, whether the Regain was part or not of the general booty ?In a paper printed to-day there was a letter from Mr. Ogilvie and Major Eckersley to the Duke of Wellington, in Yuly, 1814, relative to the estimated - Value of all ships, tocc. at Bourdeaux, amongst which this very 'Reg= was included as farming a part of the general sum, estimated at eight hundred thou- , sand ptitnias. ' SOme stress was laid upon the fact that the Duke of Wellington allowed private indivi .duils private capture on some occasions ;but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had the copy of a let ter from the Noble Duke to Mr. Ogilvie, in which his Grace stated he could not advocate the particular claim of that Gentleman, except inasmuch as his Commissiry's share, which he received. The Duke denied haiing ever given any tight of private cap ture, and referred to General Orders in proof of the fact. It was also picl that thf Duke of Wellington admitted Mr. Ogilvie to have a claim for ten thou sand pounds; but beyond the assertion of his Grace, that he thought Mr. Ogilvie a deserving off i cer, he Laid no more, either at Totilouse or elsewhere, and certainly nothing as to his right in the Requin. His Grace said he would forward his views in his situa tion as CoMmisiary, but could not be guilty of such an absurdity as to recommend a private individual' to have the right of private capture. Lord Dalhou sie himielf, in his letter, to Mr. Ogilvie, considered . the capture belonged to the army in geueral, and pot to the individual who made it. If the principle of private capture prevailed, there would be at once an end to the discipline of the Army, as had been also stated by the Duke of Welltngton. For thew reasons he must oppche the motion. Mr. HUME asked if the precedents mentioned by his Honourable Friend (Mr. F. Buxton) really existed or not? for if they' did, high as was thenuthority of the Duke of Wellington, he still th9ught,it not a suf ficient reply to them. Mr. Ogilvie should have an equal'share of justice with others • The CHANCELLOR. 'Of the EXCHEQUER said the precedents did not strictly apply to the case of Mr. Ogilvie.' . . . ' Colonel DAVIES thought if private capture were 41lowed, that the discipline of the Army would be totally destroyed. • • Mr. F. BUXTON, in reply, _admitted that Mr. Ogilvie received a share of •primoney, . but it was only to the amount ot 751. whereas Col. McDonald received his share, and the ansouat of a private cap.. ture beside. It was insisted on by the• Right Hon. the , Chancellor of the Exchequer, that Mr. Ogilvie until lately had not considered this vessel as his property.; "but he (Mr. Buxton) would rest his case upon the re- Verse. Mr. Ogilvie paid the 'prize-master for the ves sel for four years ; libelled her, as the term was used, By his attorney here (Mr. Potts), and lent her to the Due d'Angouleme, who was then at Bourdeaux.— Surely then, under such circumstances, at least the rbpute of ownership was in Mr. Ogilvie. The au thority of the Duke of Wellington was certainly very great, but it must be considered that his Grace was two hundred miles distant irom the scene of action.; if be had been nearer he would have known that Bri tish soldiers had not assisted in the capture of the Aequin; Mr. Ogilvie having, in fact, employed French sailors toegept it. Th e Hon. Member c o n! cctuded by moving to refer these papers to a Select i. ommittee.—Strangers were then ordered to with diaw, and a division took place: For the motion - . Against it - Majority - .DA RON O'GRADY.. On the readmission of strangers to the gallery, Mr.S.Rtca was addtessing the House, , but from the :. • 'rise o N ccasioned by their return s opening observe tunis ionlititot be gathered. *Whin the from nem- •19 40 -21 bet.eoidd be hear& he was understood to say be ns,: most anxious to-bring on the further discussion- .on the. Reiohitions respntlins Bxon 1111:Grady,, as delay had been charged to him, which should not fa s irV be imputed to him ; he was anxious t6.proceed. The CH A NC ELLOkt of the . EXCH EQUER wished to open his recapitulation, which he hoped could not last very long, and therefore felt that the Hon. Mew-. 1 ber would not think him wrong if he pressed his motion. Mr. S. RICE would not d etain, the House ten mi nutes, if he was allowed to proceed. If the Resolu tions were now postponed, they Could not be brought on during the present Se s sion, and he put it to the candour of the Right Hop. Gentleman, whether such a course would, under all the circumstances, be ad. visable?—(Cries of" Go on !" and " the Chancellor of 1 the Exchequer"). Mr. HUME said, that but for the understanding that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to be heard at an early hour this evening, he would not certainly have deferred his motion. He wished the Right Hon. Gentleman to go on. • Mr. HUSKISSON said that be gave way on a most important subject, which also stood for to-night, in order to make room for his Right lion. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. . THE BUDGET. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself' into a Committee on the Exchequer Bills 8113- . Mr. S. RICE said he felt it his duty to move that the other Orders of the Day should be read.. • Mr. MA BERLY hoped his Honourable Friend. would allow the Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer to proceed. Mr. S. RICE left it to the judgment of.the House whether he should press his Resolutions now or waif. Perhaps the best way would be to let the business •proceed in its ordinary course ; and if the Right-Hon. Gentleman should not occupy much tithe, he (Mi. Rice) could proceed this evening. . . • - Mr.CANNING thought the better course would be, that his Right Hon. Friend should now proceed with his statement, which he had every reason tOsup •pose would not occupy much time; and after that he had no doubt the Honourable Gentleman could ithovehis Resolutions. The Order of. the Day was then read, and the 'House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House on the Exchequer Bills Bill. • 1 . The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER felt on every account the proptiety of compressing the Observations which he had to make on the present 'occasion into as narrow a compass as possible. He itnew how much the House had been fatigued within the last two weeks, and he might himself say, that, individually he had experienced the full effects of that fatigue. He should, therefore, proceed with out further preface, to lay his statement before the Committee. As, at an early period of the Ses sion, he had explained the situation in which the finances of the country stood, and the course of measures which his Majesty's Government intended to recommend to Parliament for adoption, and as he had since been enabled by the house to carry those measures into effect, he should not at present repeat any of the observations which he then made. —At that time he stated what was the aggregate amount of the Revenue, and also the aggregate amount of the expenses of the nation. Now, bow ever, he should take a snore limited view of our situ ation, and confine himself to a recapitulation of the Votes of Supply which had been come to in the course of the Session, and the Ways and Means which Par liament had provided to meet that supply. He stat e d, at the commencement of the Session, that the total amount of the supply would be about 16,600,0001. — Gentlemen, however, would now find (from the Papers laid before them) that the supply exceeded the above sum by 2or 500,0001. , He should, he trusted, be able to account satisfactorily for that excess. It did not occur in consequence of any increase in . the esti mates for the Army or Navy or the Ordnance, but the whole had arisen under the head Miscellaneous Expenses, and the items which caused it were such as had not entered into his contemplation when he before addressed, the House on the present subject. One of these items was a vote of nearly 60,0001. for the Sta tionary OffiCe. This vote was in consequence of ar rangements which had been lately made for supplying the Public Departments with stationary, and which, though •attended with an extra charge at present, would afteravardssconduce to great economy. For merly each Department provided itself with what ever stationary it thought necessary, but an alteration had been made by which no stationary was to be. far nished but according to particular samples approved Of by the- Sationary Office, and by that means the tOtal expense (which antecedently was divided among the different Public Departments) would come under one head. Although,.therefore, an increase appeared at present in the expense of the Stationary Office, there would be 'a corresponding saving in.the expenses of aP the Departments under•the head of Contingencies. ''he full advantages of this alteration would not be felt this'year, on account of the Navy and Military Departments having provided themselves with sta downy before the new arrangement took place, but year'the - Pubiic would derive considerable be nefit from it. Another item, which be had not antici pated at, the commencement.of the Session, WAS the grant (or his Majesty's Library. There was also' 40,0001. for the Harbour of Dunleary, and 15,0004 fin- facilitating emigration from Ireland, which not !king contemplated at the commencemeat of the Ses sion, had the effect of increasing the amount of the supply, by the sum already stated. It was, however, 'satisfactory for him to be able to inform the Com mittee, that although there was such an increase in die supply, there was more than a corresponding in crease in the amount of - the Ways and Means. The whole. of the supply now amounted to 16,976,7436. :11e way in which these expenses were met was by three millions, of what in the printed papers were, by ithistake, termed annual Malt Taxes, but which were, in reality, duties on Sugar and other articles. Then there was the Lottery. 200,000/. and 126,8731. repay ,nsent by Exchequer Bill Loan Commissioners.— ' Next was the amount of Naval and Military Pen sions, 4,800,0001. andpoppot. to be paid by the East India Company, on account of half-pay and pensions. This item he wished to shortly explain ; •and in doing so he had great pleasure in stating, that the East In dia Company acquiesced in the arrangement, as one perfectly equitable. It appeared 441 than perfectly . reasonable, that as they had a large poition of the British army employed in protecting their * te rr itory, '‘hey should become liable to some phrt of the Lau- p a y and pensions with which the country was chargeable, on.account of the army. These was some difficulty i n fixing the fair proportion which the Company ought to pay, because many of those who Were- pensioned,• or put on half-pay, while their *regiments w ere lathe lEast Indies, might .hawe becomeentitted to thosepea. lions, or to half-pay, before they had gone to that pauthe w0:141..—..1.1e thought, bowel:gar, he rdigke safely-07, that the arrangement ultimately cencJaded was.bothinst as, it regarded the Public, and liberal* it regarded the Bast India Company. They had agree 4 to pa y mom° ayear, which at present he had taken credit for in the Ways. and Means, but whetheranti: ther disposition of that sum should not neteafter b e Made, as, for instance; whether like the amount re. ceived for old stores, it should be deductedifi orb tytt expense of the army only—he had not - yet decided; The sum, which anderthis head he had now to apply. as Ways and Means, Was £9o,ooo,Lia consequenieof the East India Company having consented to etas. mence their payftents from May, 1822. The next item was a surplus of Ways and Means of 1:469.W not called for by the expenses of past years. Tint' was also a surplus 'on the Consolidated rood of £8,760,000. lt was a long time since a Chancellti of the Exchequer had it in his power to include a Sur: plus of the Consolidated Fund in his Ways and Neaps ( hear, (rear, hear!)—and certainly it was very agree able to him, that in the commencement of his olaciay career, that duty had devolVed on him, particu larly when the surplus amounted to so laige a sum. The circumstance to which it was owing that so large a surplus of the Consolidated Fund now ezisted, was. the arrangement lately made with respect to the Sinking Fund, by which the charge on that Fund was reduced to its proper amount. In the early pan of the Session he had stated, that the annual income of the Consolidated Fund might be taken at forty-sit millions, and the expenses at thirty-eight millions: twenty-eight millions of the latter sum was for tbs, charge of the Funded- Debt, two millions for the es. penses of the Civil List and other charges, 2,800,000. for. the payment of the Half-pay and Pension Annul. ties, and five millions of Sinking Fund, which, witha few small items,amounted in the whole to 38,500,000 E A surplus thus remained of about eight millions, and he had the satisfaction to 'say that, in making this statement, he,had not taken as a criterion the receipts ' either of last year or of this year, but the probable re ceipts of next year, after .deducting the amount of taxes repealed during the present Session. The re *sult of the whole was, that the Ways and Means fur this year amounted to 17,385,9201. and, by deducts ing from that sum the total amount of the Supply, which was 16,976,7431. no lessa surplus than 409,1771. would remain unappropriated, but 244,150/. ofwhith it was intended to apply to the dec r ease of the Unfunded Debt. He thought it a very satisfactory circumstance (Hear) —that he was enabled to make such a state. , ment to the Committee. It appeared to him es. tremely desirable that something unappropriated ' should always remain in hand to meet untoresemt emergencies, and that the Revenue should not be pared-down exactly to the expenses of the country— (Hear). He might also observe, that owing to the late alterations in the distillety laws, he Kadin the fore. going statement calculated on a loss of Revenue from spirits; he, however, had no doubt but that del ciency. would be soon compensated by the operation of the measures alluded to.—He was happy to say that besides this a surplus' existed to meet the passing contingencies of . the country. A large sum of as• sessechtaieS had been lost to the Revenue. They were now nearly two quarters in arrear, and three quarters would soon be received and added to the sum now stated, which would leave an additional surplus. He said this for the purpose of chewing the House that there was no reason to fear a defalcation in the amorist of the approaching quarter. Perhaps it might not be altogether unsatisfactory for him to allude to the present state of the. Revenue, in order to ,hew that he was justified in the comparison he had made of the first half of this with the same portion of last year. The account of the receipts in the first part of the pre sent year, began on the sth of January, and concluded on the 25th of June, while the account for the fiat part of the year 1822, began on the same day and ended on the sth of July, by which the whole of the half year came into the account, and it was generally known that the last days of the quarter were by as means the least productive. He should satisfy di House that the Revenue, instead of fallipg short, at tually exceeded this year the produce of the 12111 period in 1822. In the Customs the account was- , From the sth January to 28th June, 1823 - - AN,01:4,10 In Bills and Cash - 5e79,191 • Itiviipt . frous Joao 28 to July 4 (X 16,000 • pet dletn) - - - 60,000 1 SLIM 1.......••• 411.30 Half year ending July .5, 1922 - - 4,040 7 Estithated increase to July 5, 1823 - X MSS This was independent of the amount of tonnage it ties, which produced last year a sum of 66,0004 log which were now repealed. In the Excise too, a ear siderable improvement had taken place in maay ar• tides, while in others the account was not so .satit factory. Howes et, on the whole, he trusted, that tlse improvement would not wear unimportant. • IV difference between the two years would appear b] the following statement:— lEstimate of the Excise Revenue for the half year ending NO 18.13, compared with the actual receipt of the correspoat l2 4 period of last year. Payments to the sth of July, 1822 - ‘12,1851 136 Actual Payments from the sth of Janu ary to the Ist pf July, 1825 - £10,571,081 Estimated Payments from the Ist to the sth of July, - ' - 658,000 11,010 Deficiency on the half year - . 888 Actual loss °tithe hall year upon articles on which the duties have been reduced. !titles - - 135,688 . Malt, including .£270,000 repayment on , account of stock in hand - 450,637 - - 465,550 1010 Actual increase . - 1000 In addition to which the repayment on account of malt duty previously ac. counted for amounted to 4270,030 a which is included in the abovenam of £460,637 ; and if no such repayment had been made; the increase of Reve nue would have beep - af4114 10 The result as to the Revenue derivable from Stave/