Star. — London, England, 1822-05-24 00:00:00

1 1 ~~ 1 ~~ f„; appeared rangement prOposedbpte present Di% practicable effects-wete likely to result,from which great benefit might be hoped,. be en:ol4 have no objection to in- Arease the sum. 'Mb was- no party meawrS. Gen tlemen of all parties had been consulted by his Majesty's Government on the subject; and nothing would more tend to the general advantage, than for individuals to lay aside all party .feelings, and to assist on the one hand in carrying t measure . into elec.ution, and on the other in preventing abuses in its application. The Marquis of DOWNR HIRE ex p ressed The satisfaction at finding that the attention of his.. Ma jestys Government and of the Legislature had been honestly directed to the situation of Ireland. Re• considered the present measure, however, as only temporary ; and trusted that Government, laying . aside all party feeling, as the Noble Elul had recom mended, would look deeper into the state of Ireland, and into the causes of its distress and disaffection,. The first cause he believed to be the tithe system, and, if the Noble Marquis at the head of the Irish Govern ment would institute an inquiry, the end of it, he was F e; shaded, would be the revision of that system. which was most unfit for that country. He was un fortunately a great proprietor of tithes, and he should be happy to make any sacrifice to facilitate a full in quiry, and a new regulation of the system. With respect to taxation, he had presented two Petitions on the subject to the House : he should be glad to' know whether the Noble Earl opposite had taken it iato consideration, and whether, as it was reported in Ireland, it was intended that some alteration should take place in the taxes which affected that country ? The Earl of LIVERPOOL replied, that this de pended ou other measures to be brought before Par liament, and that if they were.approved of by the other House, they would yield !chef, as they would be attended with some alteration. The Earl ot DARNLEY said, that it was the want of employment which aggravated all the evils of Ireland, and had produced insurrection more than the system of tithes. He wished that what was now done had been done sooner, and thought that it, would have been more gracious to vote as much for the suffering people of Ireland, as Parliament had done for the Russians, the Spaniards, and the For to gue.e, than only one half the sum, as was now pro. posed. With respect to landlords in Ireland, he knew that prejudices existed, but he disclaimed anything, like a system of oppression on their part. The Marquis of LANSDOWN, after what had Me.) from the Noble Marquis, should take this op portunity of giving notice, that if no nwasUre of a more general nature than the present should be pm p. u sed, he should himself 'call the atteution of the Iluose to the measures calcu'ated for the permanent, conciliation and happiness of Ireland. He should sox fix a day at present, as the only one on which the House would sit next week, was already occupied by an important subject. But lie should probably be able to bring.on 14s motion the week after next. The motion was then agreed to, and on that of the Earl of LivtatrooL, the Bill went through all its st iges and was passed. The Doke of DEVONSHIRE said that the notice of his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Lausdown) would relieve him from the duty of bringing forward the sLbject of Tithes in Ireland, as it would of course form a part of his Noble Friend's motion. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that the s ystem of tithes had been under the anxious consideration of the Irish Government, and that a Bill would be brought into the other House on the subject. It' would, however, only one part ; but other. measures were in contemplation, which were not sufficiently matured to he introduced in the course of the present Session. It was fitting, however, that the House should know that his Majesty's Govern ment would not rest satisfied with a partial measure, but that other important branches were also under. going investigation. Lord HOLLAND conceived that the measure mentioned by the Noble Earl would be not only a partial measure, but one calculated to throw a.ldi. tional difficulties in the way of a final settlement. At' all events, it could afford no inducement to his Noble Friead to abandon the motion of which he had given notice. The conversation having dropped, Mr. &limo: presented the Annual Account of the Receipts and Expenditure of the Dover Harbour. Laid on tic: table. After which the House Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. DAVENPORT presented a Petition from the County of Cheshire, complaining of distress, aid praying relief, by the ap plication of the Sinking Fund to the reduction of taxation.— Ibe Ilan. Member bare testimony , to the distress of the Peti tioners, and stated his belief that it was still increasing. Alr. LISTER mud, that the Meeting at which the Petition was agreed to was highly respectable and peaceable. after a few observations from Mr. Conway, the Petition was read, said ordered to lie upon the tabk. Mr. DAVENPORT presented a Petition from Nantwich, in Cheshire, against the Dill to prevent the removal of the Pour. Ordered to be printed Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a Petition from certain Dutcher* and•othet dealers in cattle, living in Whiteehapel, In favour of the Bill for preventing the ill-treatment of Cattle.— The Petition was read, and ordered to be printed. Mr. ESTCOURT presented a Petition from the Boron k of Tt es ines, praying a revision of the Criminal Code.—Orderesi to be printed. Sir U. BURGH presented a Petition frum St. Paneras, from certain Christian people thwaselves .Separatists, praying T ait( from oaths which they doe* iticonsisteut with their faith. Laid on the table. • Mr.rT. WILSON presented a Petition from certain Silk N ee dgium4. isaktat the Navigation Act! Rill, and particularly isig aifisa Vint put which permitted the importation of thrown silk. Bin W. SMITH supported the Petition. Ile trusted the 'Right Hon. Gentleman who brought in the gnu would not harry aeon through the Hesse, but give the necessary time for the parties *he were consumed, to be beard with attention.— The Petition ,was ordered be be printed. • G [MN FELL prawatied a Petition from sundry Inha. ' bitants'of liadruth, in the chanty of_Cornwall, praying a Ro. vidoes of the Criminal Cod s to be printed. . bin GREEFELL pet Mint, that en Thirsday next he protest a Faddists' certain s residing A.Ol London, whet the Propo MINIM of tbe Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the Removal the Dolt et itegleint presented a Petition from the Parish of _ gentWal- casestryp the attention of the commercial and leaded - _ before tise Holm !Mee _a kw- obeetsratioss from . Ydr. Davarimin and bk. M~aasene, WALLACE doted that the BM bad bees or would be harried through the Hesse. He was at $Am to coueeke how the Bon. Etember (Mr. Rettertoon) iodiEllohe iregipsur that the Hill had anything to do with the landed tiatassammdal in terests of the country. .Sir T. LETHBRIDGE etestassted that the trot told matay act the landed interest, and be shalltldup euirertatuts ontintty objecting to it. • Report was thin received, and the autebdusesus of she Oknmitterbaegagreed to, the Bill war ordered to be reed second time thislay weight. A Message fitim the Lords announced their Lordships'Aemst to the Seditious Meetings Bill, and +several others. The Commercial Statutes Repeal wee repotted, the amendments agreed to, and the Hill ordered to be reeds third time this day se'nnigist. Upon the motion of Dr. Les/mato% the Slave Trade Acts Consolidation Bill was committed pro faros. The Herat was brought up, and ordered to be taken into further consideration this day fortnight. The House went into a Committee upon the Scotch Distil leries Bill. The Report was ordered to i* received to-morrow , The Assessed Tax Composition Act Amendment Dill was committed, and the 'Report ordered to be taken into further consideration to-morrow. The Weights and Afeasiires Hilt went through a Committee, and the Report was ordered to bt taken into further consider ation to-morrow fortnight. IRISH PAM& Mr. GOULBURN said that, in bringing forward this subject, he should shut out from his consideration the great questions with regard to Ireland which would be mote properly discu-sed upon other occa sions. The outline of the. Bill was, to vest in the hands of the Executive the power of creating Special Magistrates, and to enable Policemen to be transfer red from one Barony to another, to be under the con troul of the Magistracy. He trusted the Bill would be discussed' at length upon some of its future stages, when its merits could be better understood by the House. He moved for leave to bring in a Bill to' authorise the appointment of Constables in Ireland, so as to secure the tranquillity of the country, by the removal from Barony to Barony. Sir J. NEWPORT said that the measure appeared to him to place a large farmer at the disposal of the local Magistrates, and to leave them without respon sibility. Upon this first view of the measure, these were the principal objections which presented them selves to his mind. Mr. V. FITZGERALD' thought the thanks of the House doe to his Right Hon. Friend, for having thus early brought the subject before the House. It was , one in which ho had for a long time been deeply in terested, and he was much gratified at seeing it in such good hands. Mr, Secretary PEEL thought the Hon. Baronet (Sir J: Newport) would not find, upon reflection, that his objections could lie against the Bill. He was satin- 1 tied that the Hon. Baronet would apply his mind to the measure proposed, without permitting any pre conceived opinion to interfere with his deliberate judgment. Several attempts had been made to ac complish this desirable object, but hithei to without success.; and it was his earnest hope that it might now be rendered practicable. He believed that the chief evils of Ireland arose from the in dinary English laws not having had a fair tail in that conntry. Ile did not mean to anticipate discussion, and he should therefore only express his opinion that what was proposed might now be done ; and it was agreed on all hands that, if an effective Police could be esta blished in Ireland, the greatest benefits must arise from it—(Hear). After so meabsery ations from NI r.Gotiusun e: and Mr. BROUGHAM, leave was given to bring in the Bill. WELSH JUDICATURE. Mr. ALLEYS rose in pursuance of notice, to sub mit a motion to the House, which he was sorry had not fallen into other hands. The subject might be considered with reference to the present defects in the Welsh Jurisdiction, the possibility of removing them by Legislation, and in case this were found impracti cable and difficult, to the propriety of abolishing the separate jurisdiction altogether. Under the first branch of the subject, the facts were admitted. There were few responsible officers, and most of these held different situations ; some of them incompatible with each other. The Equity side of the Judicature was ,seldom resortei to ; and therefore Gentlemen whose legal education bad been principally directed to the common law were selected as the Judges, and these were of course little acquainted with the rules of equity. Two objections to the equity side were in deed of themselves - almost insurmountable. The Coact was ambulatory, and it had not the power of enforcing the attendance of witnesses on the obedi ence of its own decrees: The latter circumstance had been shewn in the case of Lord tensington,who, under the. advice of Sir Itomilly, had brought actions against one of his-tenants in the Courts at Westmin• ster, in defiance of an injunction issued by the Welsh Court of Equity: Another objection which affected the whole of the Judicature, WAS in the circumstance that the Judges might act as Counsel in cases not coming under their'judicial cognisance. • This gave rise to many suspicions connections between the Judges and the attornies who employed them as Counsel. The next objection was to be referred to the present state of the law, which in some cases di rected' Welsh causes to be tried in the adjoining Eng ' fish county.; and' in others'gave a power of removing causes by certiorari to the - superior Courts. The con sequence of this was f that many suitors bad to take ' , their witnesses a hundred miles before they came in sight of the Court of. Justice'; and that the expense of trying an unimportant cause not unfrequently amounted to three hundred pounds. Such a'system amounted to an exclusion of the poor from the meant of obtaining justice, and enabled the rich to oppress with impunity, as certain ruin attended a poor man in the event of his encountering such expense. In deed he knew dint a rich man who wished' to cons pel one of-his tenants to submit to' sertain.terms be wanted to enforce upon bim, told the poor man to " submit, or prepare for sr journey to Hereford ;" so that it was evident that oppression in this ease was present , Welsh Judges: They Might hold' 'situations . next cpirielictrsta‘incesthewChmichwils;oualnddreisMidergat t s air in in th teg i t e at it ; list• blew be weakened, , be removed by qeestion was, whether these evils could at least in.ptsblic opinion. 'legislation, still retaining the separate jurisdiction ?-- He was opinion that they could not; and it might thence be inferred that he - intended; in, the first in stance, to propose the abolition of that separate ju risdiction. He was, however, willing to submit the .to the consideration of a Committee, in which he should stance, that the reasons which formerly existed for a. propose Resolutions, declaring , in sub separate jurisdiction had ceased; that equality of, laws between England and. Wales was desirable; and. that in order to effect that equality, the separate ju risdiction should be abolished, and the jurisdiction of Wales be administered by Judges of equal rank and, experience with those of England. There was another Resolution which, as it effected the Crown Revenue, Must be put into the shape of an Address, and this he proposed to do. He alluded to the payment of King's fines and King's silver, on the conveyance of lanes, which he proposed to be made through the English Court of Common Pleas. After some other remarks in support of his proposition, the Honour able Member observed, that it was the wish of the people of Wales to partake.of the benefits of the Eng lish Constitution, by -having justice administered us their own country in all respects as it was in England: He then concluded by moving for the appointment of , a Committee to consider the present laws by which justice was administered in Wales. Mr. BARHANI seconded the motion. There was no difference in the condition of the two countries, except that of the language, which prevailed in a very limited degree, and was daily falling away.— But this circumstance could be no argument in favour of the continuance of the present system of Welsh jurisprudence, if in other respect: it was ob jectionable, for the proceedings of the Courts were.. in the English language. He was in favour of the total abolition of the separate jurisdiction, and he thought the people of the country were not against such an abolition. It might be said that there was.-, but one Petition before the House in its feeour ; but this was accounted for very easily. Had there been! a wish to encourage Petitions, they would have been numerous, but it was thought prudent not to indis pose the people against their institutions without a certainty that the proposed alteration could be ef iected—( Hear, hear).—t4 hen a Committee, in sti former Session sat upon this subject, they examined one of the Velsh Judges as to the feelings of the, people with respect to any change in the system.— Theiudge answered this question by producing an Address which had been pret.ented to him by a Grand Jury, deprecating any change. Much stress had been laid on this circumstance, but it turned out that the Judge had brought on this Address by his own- Charge to that Gland Jury ; for in his Charge he no ticed and condemned the then proposed alteration.— 'lle best evidence that the people of that country did not like the present system, was in the fact that they would not trust to it ; for they removed their causes into the superior Courts, notwithstanding the expense and inconvenience which attended their doing so.— He gave-his hearty support to the motion of his Ho nourable_Friend. • Mr. JONES opposed the motion. lie said that means had not been untried to obtain Petitions for the abolition of the separate jurisdiction ; but-the peo ple cf %Vales weie in general satis fi ed with the pre sent system. Indeed, there was a Petition before the • hlouse from the county of Carmarthen, most respect. ably signed, against the abolition. The administra tion of justice in Wales had continued for many can.. writs ; the people were happy under it, and had not complained against it. The argument of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Alleyn) respecting the want of power of the Court of Equity was singular enough ; because it must be the fault of a suitor himself if he would .apply to that Court for relief when he knew that it could not enforce its own decrees, and that the Court of Chancery, which could enforce its decrees, was open to him. The fact, however, was otherwise. The Court possessed the power of punishing a con tempt of its decrees. It might issue process of at tachment and sequestration, and would have done so in Lord Kensington's case had the person injured ap plied to the Court for relief; but the. Court could not take extra-judicial notice of a disobedience of its- or ders. The evidence taken before a - former Commit tee was strongly against the proposed change.. That Committee had been moved Tor by a Right Hon Gentleman now no more (Mr. Ponsonby) under an idea that the system was - founded in - corruption; but he afterwards declared that he was surprised to find that the Welsh Jurisdiction was so advantageously I carried on, and that even that of England, in some instances, might improve from it. The Committee had examined many respectable individuals con tacted with Wales on the subject, most of whom had strongly approved of the present practice. In parti cular, one of the witnesses had adverted to the corn iatively small expense of the suits carried on in the Webb Courts.' The principal persons who before the Committee had disapproved of the present system of judicature were Lord Kensington (whose dislike of it was not avowed until he had lost his cause ,in the Welsh Court), his Lordship's Solicitors, and' I* Mr. Owen, a Barrister; but this Learned Gen- Aeman was, day after day, in the course of his Un rsainatiOn, correcting or altering his evidence, so that his own mind was not, •it ippeared, very de cidedly formed on the subject. I'he Attornies who practised in the Courts were generally men of re spectable birth, educatiOn, and conduct, -and were thought fit companions brmany lion. Members of. that House r and persons of emineet rank. The Bash bad to boast of the names of Lord Kenyon; Sir Jas. Mansfield, Sir VicaryGibbs, Sir 41ld Macdo nald, Sir Williasir Grant, the late Misteinf the Rolls. and the present Mce-Chancellor and g l uier of the law. Aim** mason , by for Vii* the juxisprodrce of that country w ar dreamitiMecie of rpower of inamtang arbitrary iya.: poi stint, at ploasure Of the landlord over his mug. Dot this power equally existed in the remote parts Yorkshire, at the option of any despo t ic: Aird. He admitted with his Hon. Friend, thatz Jedges in Wales should be appointed by the tenor, and' ndt by the Treasttry....aposi different pi Ciples than political, and that they thotild htli Lave setts inshattiouse. If this motion atm disposed alas he expected it might,-he should bring in a Bill to re move these abuses, and he begged to say that his Bill bad the sanction of the first lawyers. In conclusio n , he begged to observe, that he thought his Honour able Friend had not brought forward everything to induce him to consent to change the long-established jurisdiction of the principality of Wales. He mott o therefore, give the motion his negative. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, that the I ton. Gentleman had hinted that he would introduce .t . - for removing some of the more gross abuses to %%Inch! .the appointment of the Welsh Judges was expo:ea Now h. (Sir J. Mackintosh) would - like to hear in what mulls the Hon. Gentleman would couch some of his clauses—such as that for preventing them from being appointed on political grounds, and that for having them named by the Lord Chancellor instead of the representatives of the Lord Treasu,er. The ground upon which the Honourable Member had at tempted to justify the reforms which he conteni r lated was, that the Judges m ere appointed tiron pis liticA grounds, and not because of their fitness for dis charging the ditties of their officer. If %Li, had ir,r been true, surely the lion. Member would not have stated it; as it was perfectly shocking, compared with the milder appellation of inferior Judges, %%hid/ had been bestowed on them by his I lon. Friend.— ' With tegard to the quoting of six or eight great names, as having sat on the Welsh Bench, or pleaded at the Welsh Bar, it was quite frivolous; and the ex istence of the Star Chamber could in like nrainier be defended, by showing that Bacon and Coke, oust others equally great, had been Members of that Court, It was but a poor defence of the Weiskindicatory, to. knew that a few great men had made it a stage nni the road to political preferment. The mode in which the Judges in England were appointed, was one of the best securities for the proper. administratioa of justice, and the Welsh Wad no such security. It availed nothing that the people had not conipldined of this evil; for on the subject of legislation the op nions of the people were not entitled to much resi.ect. He had no wish to make the slightest allusion to the character or conduct of individual Judges, but 1: must say that they had been appointed in a manner which ought not to be continued. He proceeded to say, that with respect to increasing the number of Judges, he was against such a measure, unless oa the ground of absolute necessity. Where thei e was but a small number of super for Judges, there was the greater moral responsibility—the higher point of ho nour with regard to judicial purity, and the digni fied administration of the laws; and he considered that one of the greatest errors and most signal mis fortunes into which some free States had fallen, was the multiplication of Judges; for the effect of this was to lower the tone of judicial integrity and honour, the greatest calamity which could befal a country (I gear, hear), as there could be no greater happiness than the preservation of the high attributes of justice.— It was therefore that he always looked on this country as most happy on two points of its judicial institutions. One was, that the superior Judges wen: of a small and select number, and had a stifficiea salary fcr the support of the dignity and decent splendour of their stations, while in the next place the inferior' Judges or Magistrates, being such as rave their services gratuitously to their .country, were course chosen from that class of persons who natu irally enjoyed the confidence and respect of their fel low-subjects. This indeed was a happy combinatien of principles in the systeth of English jurisprudence. ,But, in the present instance, he wished to remove an exception to this salutary combination. He was jealous of the title of a Judge ; he wished to see it up held in its proper station, and with all its moral as well as legal authority—(Hear, hear). He therefore ; could not approve of allowing that title to descend to an inferior situation, and consequently lose something of its high and venerable character. One of the first objects of a good policy would be to keep the name and station cf a Judge in the Commonwealth as high as it could be in the estimation of mankind, by the confined number and select appointment of the supe rior Judges. But when he said this, he must also confess that he was not attached to any particular arrange ment; nor was he influenced at all by the Pythago rean power of Ministers, but would be very willing to add to the existing number when the public neces sities required it ; and he thought the time was come when such necessity existed—when it was necessary to add to the number of the Judges of this realm, on account of the increase of business, and for the pur -1 pose of saving a little of the time and lives of those who filled the highest and most important stations in society—(Hear,hear). It was his opinion that in ge aeral the greatest business would follow the Courts where the most distinguished talents and learning were found to preside, and therefore a dispropor tionate quantity must be thrown on the Court of King's Bench, and naturally resulted from the very constitution of that Court, from its ancient character, les. appointments—and the important station it filled rin the public eye. He would therefore consent to a Iproposition for adding two Judges to the Courts of Common Law, and would prefer that to any inequa lity among the Judges, while he would leave the dis tribution of business to their own arrangement. He then thanked the House for the indulgence with which he had been heard, and sat down - amidst sexprei 'ions of approbation. • Mr. SCARLETT stated he. y Atli the opinion of his Hon. and d 'f r i e nd who lihave to pros thwilkg mi le. et I Itigg Mo. the Chi et the Idedepaly of Db. CURIUM . , ••• .. . \ •• • ' - '4 ,, w, . '' 11111WritiorarilMitr y W i r"Tligrir"rir . - • ~--- ,- . . • •.. N. • • . .. , . • . • , •, ' • ' .., • . • . - •• • • • , - ..u.s. ... , . - • * • . ..• • • gern i Z i ttithe ise 0== . 0112:1 1 Warthanh • e°slPilds* 44 45dad "= "14 — — "l teti alage ritkir died ',. •Ws • those pave sad perm's; and in mlai . WIMP'. G t aillepiaaloOf dui Or wianko be , • - . • of th e greet aad•accoinplished Sir Wm. Jones, to tyttha illi.i. • lace Mr ilakaset Williams, the late Mr Justice' w ar employelopesil s y ou . sd effectually, as i . ndividual s?- team* offort.Geissausei, L.A. „. dill 'ar; ' rata:tithe Claw 'A,shun' t, Lord Oliebervie, the pretest C hancellor of would take ca libw th eir own was applied, whilst Bin was rase a saka that granted by Government was liable to be abused. , ___,____.tbe * t i t dinell...mammitailialle Ael (d e "V r A e r . Jobs would exist in all countries, in England as aay A/IMM of nataTh____ _ wriateg Jarases. sr; hr- leery Bar were little ' 'Mid 4ith the- g : , the Exchequer, the late Mr. Dauncey, and Mr.Tatin. where else. As to the extent of the measure, he would in ' ea ts, i n a - sionos ang Mina the 10 1, ; and that many of em haskiever had it •iiiitt ton, who had lately been honouted with a silk gown. el him nn diffarnti m ukaini 3 larther. ifhe law his gm/ Del ...... , ...... the u p on brief in a criminal cue. And yet thete•Eientlemen lic could not Wks'', t h et . t h e c oon , 4nwficirsuch. to any certain ut as the principle was the nt ru 7_ l ±lr we Amea d enst Da " attim Rgisit would have toospoond to Juries the law as it affected personages as these presided were not sufficient to • doubtful, it was proper that Parliament should pro- DE , vigwww .RoanirrsOnLoblottof l ul = tile adi.i. lias se inteeet, mvsb the liberties and lives of their fellow-videos. - 'There answer all the eicla.of _justice. Re defied his Hon, other b' • were a lso • .lections, and th ose too of a mild,. P`rterit to 'Ad dams one single instance of injustice' teed cautiously. If it appealed th at, under the ar- urn t h e g round of its ban( lai ___. .......,....A a„. ~,,,,,,L . n t em, practicable w_tt_w_sessisel_ Indoor , ' d' • d°-"lrtith to eau cal nature, against the present syitem ofrappointing being done la "the tthonistrat ion of the ciiminal — 4 ' oh• eAliminercial and landed Inter". to the B ill 11 , -1-1. T.A. , ... That. vnieht hold' situations at the law. Another season advanced by his Hon. Friend - '17!! J S i