Star. — London, England, 1822-03-02 00:00:00

... txplanaticat that ittod Mt been given before. Before Islo there were no detailed Estimates of the Nave ftireislied at all. But softly it was a Mockery to gi, in a charge of 500,0001. for wear and tear. Would the House ask no information as to wages and vie. tualline, when provisions had fallen one-half, and yt the old rates were still charged ? The fourth item Was the Ordnance Sea Service, valued at seven shi: lings a man. On what principle was this calculation founded ? The GoVernment should let them know ;- The Finance Committee of 1817 recommended that tin charge should be kept down . to 49,400/. They ex pected it to become still smaller in times of peace, on account of the great stores laid in. Instead of which, in 1819, it was 91,0001.—in 1820,104,0001. — in 1821, 100,0001. —and for this year, 95,0001. There were expenses under the head of Navy Sea service, which ought not to be brought there—such as the ordnance craft in the rivers. 1-le would move For particulars to be laid before the House of the sum of 95,.5501. for the Ordnance Sea Service ; also, of 8.59,6501. wear and tear of /the ships for the Sear ensuing. Would the Hon. Gentlemen oppo site give the details of the Estimates of 1821 ? (Hear, hear,,front Mr. Croker). If they would, he Would not press his motion—(A pause). He must then submit his motion, for particulars of the Est imates for Ordtance Sea Service. Mr. CHOKER hoped that the Hon. Gentleman would suffer them to go inm a Committee, where he could ask for details, and the information would be readily furnished to him. The House were aware a the advantages of that course, and of not calling on Government for any prospective accounts. Sir 1. COFFIN said, that he would give the Hon. Member the information he asked, in three minutes. There were 191 ships in commission. It had been found in the American war, that one of our ships was suddenly attacked and blown up•by one of inferior force, because her guns had not been cast loose for twelve months. The Admiralty had therefore or dered that a certain quantity o f powder and shot should be fired of every month. And if the discipline of the Navy was Ira worth 95,0001. a-year to keep it up, wit) the ships had better be blown up altogether! Mr. WARD said, that it was a mistake to repre• sent the expense as being spent in powder and shot. A considerable reduction had been effected in the floating magazines and the ordnance craft. There was considerable expense in replacing the fixed am munition of ships under sailing orders. Mr. G. BENNET could find no mention of 191 ships. He imagined that the Hon. Member near him must have misplaced the figures, and put the 9 be fore the 1, as the return was 119 ships. Sir I. COFFIN said, that he had Returns of 191 in commission. He had forgotten to mention a large expense which took place in firing salutes. Mr. HUM E said, that he only wanted information, and that being promised in the Committee, he would withdraw his motion. COMMITTEE. The House then went into the Committee. Sir J. OSBOItN moved that 555,6501. he allowed for wear and tear of the Navy, including 20,000 men, at 21. Is. per man per month.:—Agreed. The Hon. Member next moved a grant of 819,0001. for ordnance sea service, at 6.. per man per month. Mr. BERNAL asked, why this sum differed from the printed Estimates? Sir J. OSBORN said, that it had been found prac ticable to reduce the item ls. per man. Mr. HG ME wished to know at what stage they were to take the . expenses of the Marines ? Mr. CROKER replied, on the item for wear and tear, and on that for wages. Mr. HUNIE complained that there were seven si necures in the Marine Estimates, amounting alto gether to twenty pounds a day, the holders of which had nothing to do with the department. If they had deserved reward, let them have pensions granted by Parliament. He thought it very advisable to strike these places off, and give pensions instead of them to the amount. Mr. CROKER said, that the Hon. Member might move for their reduction on the item for the wages and pay. The Officers in question had been attached to the Marines from the first existence of the corps ; and on that account he thought the question of their reduction to be one of sufficient importance to form the subject of a substantive motion, and he should prefer that the Hon. Member should make it so ; but if he did not think proper to do that, he (Mr. Croker) should be prepared, on the bringing up of the Report, to show the grounds on which he thought it-proper that they should be retained.—Motion agreed to. JUNIOR LORDS OF THE ADMIRALTY. Sir JOHN OSBORN said, that in rising to move the Ordinary and Extraordinary Estimates of the Navy for the present year, it was gratifying to him to feel that the time was come when the resolutions adopted by the Government at the conclusion of the war, of placing the naval establishment on a reduced and economical scale, were so far matured as to ena ble the Government to carry them in a great mea sure into effect. The Ordinary Estimates were di vided into three separate branches: the first com prising the charge for the establishments of the civil offices, the dock-yards, the outports and foreign yards, the wages of ships in ordinary, the harbour moor ings, and the repairs of ships in ordinary ; the second embraced the half-pay, superannuations and pen sions to the Officers in the military line of the Navy, their widows and relations, and the bounty to Chap lains; and the third branch extended to the super annuations to the Civil Officers of the Navy, and al lowances hi lieu of half-pay to Naval Officers for anerly emi.loyed in the civil departments of the service. The Extraordinary Estimates included the vharge for building and repairs of ships of war, for works in the different yards, and for the victual ling and transport departments. There would be Found a considerable diminution in the amount of the charges on both divisions of the Estimates.- 1 in the first branch of the Ordinary .Estimates re ductions had been effected to the amount of 160,0001.; in the second branch there was an increase of 72,0001.; and in the third branch there was also an increase of 20,0001. in the Extraordinary Estimates the charge for building, re-building, and repairs of ships, had been.reduced to 482,0001.; and that for the repairs ,and buildings, and other works in the yards at Sheerness and other places, 158,0001.1 U nder the latter head no new works were tom menced ; there were only the old works to be proceeded on, which would be done gradually until they were corn- mittee with this motion, which had been rejected on a former occasion. One - of the arguments urged in support of the maintenance of the present number of Lords of the Admiralty was, that the Board, from the time of its first establishment, had always con. sisted of the same number; and that the constant usage justified the adherence to the original form of the institution. But he denied thatfrom its first foun dation the Board of Admiralty had always consisted of the present number of junior Lords. The Board was first instituted in the reign of William and Mary, and he found that in 1702, 1706, and 1709, there were but four junior Lords—(Hear).—ln 1714 and in 1717 there were five junior Lords, and on that scale it remained up to 1775. Since that time he admitted that there had always been six ; but surely a period of forty-seven years would not be set up as a sufficient argument for the continuance of offites now found to be useless—(Ffear).—There might have been reasons why the number of these Lords should have been in creased during the latter periods of our history, when the force and number of our Navy was so much aug mented; but looking at the circumstances of the pre sent time, it must appear to every man that the mo ment was come when a reduction of the number might be effected without prejudice to the public service.— when the force employed in the Navy amounted to 140,000 men, and the number of ships in commis sion to 1200, six Lords were found sufficient to con duct the business, it could not with any shew of reason .be maintained that the same number were required to conduct the business at picsent, when the number of vessels in commission was reduced to 119, and the number of men employed to 21,000—(Hear, hear). — The Committee of Finance, in 1797, remarked upon the constitution of this Board, that "during the con tinuance of the war it was not likely that the business would allow of any reduction in the number of six Lords, exclusive of the first Lord ; but that it would be a proper subject for consideration whether, in a time of peace, there might nt•t be such a dittinution of public business as to allow of a reduction of the number of the Board ?"—(:fear, heat).—The clerks, on whom the great weight of the business necessarily fell, had been dismissed with an unsparing hand, but not one of the Lords had been reduced, because these appointments were a convenient piece of patronage for keeping up the influence of the Crown.' He would, freely confess that his object in proposing this motion was not more the saving of the 2,0001. a-year, than the curtailing of the influence and patronage of the Crown, partiaularly in that House,which was kept up at an unnecessary expense to the Public—(Cheers)., In 1817, the Noble Marquis objected to a motion on this subject, on the ground_ that while a Committee was sitting tip stairs, within whose province it would fall to report on the subject, the question was prema ture ; but no sooner was the vote of the House Dl that occasion known to that Committee, than it de clared that it was precluded from me !Wing with this topic by the vote of the House, which had decided for the keeping up of the existing number. Another argument which had been used for the keeping up of this establishment was, that it was looked upon as necessary for training young statesmen in habits of public business, and fitting them for higher offices. But any plain man like himself would be disposed to think, that if there was any one office which more than another required skill, knowledge and expe rience in those who were to discharge its duties, it was that office to which was confided the manage ment and direction of the naval forces of the court try—(Hear). If lie put it on the ground of the re duction of the public business—if he put it on the ground of the pledge of the Noble Marquis, that .every possible reduction consistent with the safety and regularity of the public business should be made; lie appealed to every man in the House whether this motion was not one which was entitled to their sup port'—(Hear, hear). He implored those Gentlemen who thought fit to support the motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. C;lcraft) on the preceding night, from their conviction 'of the necessity of an alleviation of the burdens of the country, not to fall short now ; but as they hai felt the necessity of calling for a reduc tion of that tax, to follow it up by voting for the re duction of every useless office, the maintenance of which was made the ground of the demand fur the full amount of these taxes. 'He concluded by moving, as an Amendment, that the sum be .55,606/. ss. Id. Sir J. SEBRIGHT said, he did not think the re ductions which the Noble Lord had boasted of being effected were sufficient, for this simple reason, that no reduction could be sufficient as long as any fur ther reduction could be made—(Loud cheers). He was as anxious as the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) for the maintenance of the public credit, and should therefore be lath to encroach upon his Sinking Fund ; he should be very sorry to see the income and expenditure of the coun try so nicely balanced as not to leave a surplus of four or five millions applicable to that object. But he called upon the Right Hon. Geatleman to do that 'which would, on bis conscience he believed, do more to support public credit than any Sinking Fund whatever ; namely, to shew a sincere disposition to effect every possible reduction, in the expenditure— (Cheers). His Hon. Friend said very truly that the saving would he but small; but it was not the sum, but the principle which he (Sir J. Sebright) supported —(Cheers). He begged to remind Gentlemen, that these junior Lords of the Admiralty, though they could spend no more than 10001. a year, the amount of their Warp out of the public purse, yet they could vote away millions—(Loud cheering)—and were they fit guardians of the public purse, en which they de pended for their salaries?—(Cheers). If six Lords were really necessary, in GOD'S name let them be re tained ; but could any man of common 'lease be , brought to think th#t the same number . was neces sary now as had been_ foUnd adequate to the efficient discharge of the heavy duties of the office during the war ?—(Hear, hear). Sir 6..COCKBVRN defended the present coml. , tut= of the Board, oil the ground of the neces sity. Many k - they Ora to Perform, Wining to the details of accounts and other official particulars, which Natal Officers general were not able to go into; and though Naval Officers were necessary at the Boards, yet they wtte not more so than Civilians; and he must say, that,, in his opinion, during the last year, the Lay Lords had been more useful in the discharge of the duties of the office than the Naval Lords--(H'ear, hear). — In searching the records of the office as far back as the Revolution, they could find no instance of a Board consisting of less than the present number of Lords. He was aware that Beatson's Political Index, the work from which he believed the Hop. Baronet had derived, his informatioh., mentioned only four at some periods, and five at others; but the documents in the office spewed at no time a less number than six. He thought himself as well , qualified, by his experience of the duties of the office, as any man, to judge of the num ber of persons required to discharge them effectually, and he solemnly assured the House, that he was firmly convinced the present number was no more than was , absolutely necessary—(Hear).—Gentlemen might not perhaps feel disposed to give him full credit for the assertion, but he did assure them upon his honour, that lie would not say it if he,did not think it (Cheers). Mr. BERNAL felt the highest respect for the cha racter both private and professional of the gallant Officer, and it gave him pain therefore to differ from him in opinion on the present occasion. In the Com mittee last year the office of Vice-Admiral of Scot- lanA was defended as sacred from reduction, on as strong a plea and asseveration of its necessity as these two junior Lord,hips of the Admiralty; but the said Vice-Admiral had at length struck his flag, and dis appeared from the Estimates of this year—(Hear, and a laugh)—to the saving of 30001. a-year. A sating of 20001. had been effected on these Estimates by the dismissal of a number of clerks If that had been found practicable on account of the decrease of business, why could not these two Lords be as well spared for the same reason ? for if there was less bu siness for the clerks, there must be much less for the Commissioners. Admiral SOTHERON agreed with his Honour able and gallant Friend (Sir G. Cockburn) that the Board of Admiralty ought to consist of six members. Mr. MARRYATT supported the amendment, on the general principle that reduction was necessary, and the House ought to manifest every disposition to put the principle in force. Lori ALTHORPE supported the motion of his, Hon. Friend. Ile thought two Lords could. do the business at the outports as well as three; and in cases where there was a difference of opinion, it might be referred to the First Lord of the Admiralty. Sir ISAAC COFFIN declared himself of opinion that the Lay Lords were necessary to the public ser vice. It had been su ggested that a Lord of the Tre.i. gory might be sent or to their assistance; but did the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bernal) who threw out this idea recollect that the Admiralty had a jurisdiction over life and death, and might send a warrant by the post, signifying " shoot that Officer?" Suppose a case of mutiny : Hon. Gentlemen might know what that was—(A laugh).—He was himself attacked once by six hundred mutineers at Sheerness, and he re sisted them all—(A laugh):—Lord Hood and the late Lord Gardner, when Lords of the Admiralty, had very heavy and important duties to discharge; but if it were found that there was not sufficient employ ment for the, Lay Lords, " for GOD'S rake," said the Hon. Baronet, " let them be turned out!" Mr. GIPPS thought, in time of peace, one of the . Lay Lords might be spared. ' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER de fended the original grant ; at the same time he again explained that the superannuation of clerks was to be provided for by keeping back 5 per Cent. out of their salaries ; at present, therefore, the salaries were voted to their full extent. With respect to the higher offices of State, on the saliries of which a reduction of 10 per Cent. had been recommended, it had been thought most expedient that the reduction should not be made as a permanent measure, but that, by the order of his Majesty, a deduction should be made commensurate to the exigencies of the State—(hear). Mr. ELLISON said he should vote for the amend ment, as the house should lose no opportunity of re deeming the pledge they had given of economy. Sir C. COLE, in giving his vote, said he was actu ated by a sense of duty to his constituents, which controuled his attachment to the profession which he honoured beyond anything in the world—(Hear). — He felt forcibly, that if the First Lord of the Admi ralty, and six other Lords could manage the affairs of the Navy in time of war, the same number could not be necessary now—(Hear, hear). Mr. LITTLETON said, he should support the amendment, because the essence of the Noble Lord's (Lord Londonderry's) plan Was economy, and i( it was not enforced by the votes of the House it was quite nugatory—(Hear, hear, bear). He had formerly voted against a similar motion, but he thought it not inconsistent in the present altered situation of the country to give it his support—Wear, hear). Mr. EGERTON wished for the , retrenchment of all unnecessary and expensive establishments, as the best means of supporting public credit. Ile was con vinced that wherever a saving could be made it aught to be made. Sir G. WAILRENDER should not do justice to himself, or his late colleagues, if he did not state some facts to the Hour.' One of le duties be bad to per-1 form was, the duty of paying the sum of £500,000 to the Pensioners of Greenwich Hospital, and that duty devolved on a junior Lord. For the first two ,years he had sitten at the Admiralty, he had only been absent for two months. By the office preventing his attention to his private affairs, be had been com pelled to relinquish it, after be had held it with much satisfaction for five years—(Laughter). Mr. GRENFELL hoped that the Hon. Baronet would hate proved that the same number of Lord% of the Admiralty was necessary in - time of peace as l in war. He gave his cordial suppomte die savtA9a. these VOW d diroc . t his observations. First, as to not disposed to differ. from. the Bork Heat the lesallness of the saving was no tolliOsi for not making it : if:20001. of the public ntossei-"dnidd bit saved, it ought to be done.; bet the *NO* may cif judging upon the matter was to balance the money against the advantages the Public derived from the expenditure ; 'for though there might be a specious argument for economy, there migtt also bt tad reasons for incurring the charge : .-(Hear, hear-).- 9n this occasion he attached cousiderabeeinspertance to the opinion of his gallant Friend (Sir John 04- borne),. who was a professional man, and a man of honour, and who would not give an opinion, unless ina rceo gairesi b conscientious the sb e elief that what he recommended was public service. He wished the House to see what saving was likely to be made by adopting the measure a hick the Hon. Baronet recom mended. In the affairs of private life, matters could .never be so arranged that the persons having the ma nagement of them could be always at their post; and . such was tit:re:l4in piblic offices, like that now pro posed to be reduced. He did not, therefore, conceive that the reduction of 2009/. a-year in this office could • produce a benefit equal to the disadvantage which the public service must experiencefrom it ; particularly' when he considered the nature of the service to be performed, and the advantage of having two Boards instead of one. Such a saving could net be in any re spect consistent with the principles of economy, com pared to the advantage of having the business of the office conducted with due attention and energy. This question had been so much agitated out of doors, that it would be a relief to his Majesty's Government tb give up the point ; but he never would agree to a plan of economy merely for the purpose of making an im pression out of doors. He caisld have no personal in terest in this question, and he viewed it merely as one of public utility, withceit considering any advantages the Ministers of the Crown might derive from it.— Gentlemen had talke3 of the great increase of the in fluence of the Crown, but he never could agree to any such doctrine as that which was so continually held forth, as that every person acting under the Crown was actuated by sordid feelings. He would always repel every insinuation of the kind, and deny that Ministers were actuated by such sordid motives—(Hear, hear). He protested against the insinuation that they had any feelings of the kind. There never was a period in our history when the influence of the Crown was so small as at present, and when popular influence was so great over the House of Commons-as at the pre sent moment—(Hear, hear). He therefore protested against the principle laid down, that the Members of that }louse were bound 'to vote for the purpose of reo ducing the influence of the Crown, and he conceived the Members ought fairly to look at what the influence in question ottgliCto be. Ile had.already objected to the motion reiperting the Scotch Burghs, because its object appeared to be that of erecting a species of Reform that would injure the Constitution; and he should object to the present motion on the same ground. The amount was not, he knew, to be des pised, but still it could not not be considered of great moment to the count: y. Even in the tines in which they lived, and feeling a sincere anxiety to support every Reform comi,tent with the public welfare, he could not agree to such a motion. He could not as sent to a proposition which was founded on a sup posed excess of the influence of the Crown in that House, unless such an influence was proved to exist. It would afford a precedent pregnant with danger, and therefore he should vote against it. Sir J. SEBRIGHT said there was nothing further from his intention than to impute a sordid feeling to the Noble Lord, who was the last man in the country to whom he should attribute such a motive. He had imputed nothing to the present Admini stratiou as dis tinguished from any other, but he had observed that every Administration had a desire to keep patronage in its hands. Ha question were brought directly be fore the House whether the present Ministry should be removed or no, there was no man who would more decidedly vote for their continuance than himself. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he had •understood the Hon. Baronet to speak of the holders of office as giving their votes under influence. Sir J. SEBRIGHT said the holders of inferior and sinecure places were naturally under influence in their voting, though he did not mean to apply his remarks to any individual. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he could not accept any compliment at the expense of those with whom lie acted—(Hear, hear). Mr. S. WORTLEY said he was sorry to interrupt the dialogue of the Noble Lord and the Hon. Baronet --(A laugh).—He wished to explain, that in voting for the motion he did not do so on the supposition that the Crown had too much patronage, but simply on the ground of economy, and because he was not convinced that the business of the Admiralty could not be done by fewer Lords than were now.proposed. It was their duty to make every reduction that could be effected consistently with the safety of the country; and, on the best judgment he could form, he con ceived the safety of the country was not implicated in the existence of these offices—(Hear). Sir M. W. RIDLEY said a few words in reply ; and expressed his gratification at the support he had rt ceived from his gallant II iend Sir C. Cole. The Committee proceeded to divide on the Reso lution. While strangers were excluded from the gal lery, the loud and continued cheers which echoed through the House, announced the defeat of Ministers, and on their re-admission the numbers were— For the Resolution .128 Against it., lB2 MAJOSITY mutest JiINISTLIIS --S 4 !!! • On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, there was mash noise la the body of the House. &tire it had subsided, Sir J. OSBORN moved for the sum of A": 1,304. 12s. 6d. to defray the Wades of Olken and Clerks in the Navy Pay.nfice for MS. (the Chairman) put the question witk ma. and was about to declare how it bad ken Mr s* . Rit ynod O hqu e it D 7 ll , N es "NICT rose, tad declared it was impossible - pre pitted. The tegtrar votes had been drawn op to Ito silit it : . •, . , •.1 . . • . • .. %. . .. . . . . , •—• , . . - . . , . - • . _ . . . ...., , . •,, 4, tl . e:Or 1 1 , _f ', f . , .6 • . ' . . , • ...' ''• , • r••••:.,: .. . . _ - ,$ . . . ' • • ,;, • • F. •- . ...- • y c r ••• " • ..fone Mao s oa k eapdb:e Mr, GOOtH, &Nth he baiter oat of thoifile linjo!ity lb ilweerOf the Belt Tarot*, oy *Moe • ivy proposed in the mode suggested in the Committee last neklilK3 . . . iblifpnOwilkik ° Noe s t ive year ; and the first vote which he had to propose was, tilr'M ~...• ' . , ~ 4 Rai ! dole . , ovtoottii and: oscaston a . should vote fop the ,motion: - ild .. That the sum of 57,60411. Ss. id. be granted to his Mainly three _ _. _. . 1 1 1 4- %• , Optiontbi.,A.ct of roe lln - Thf 'kits is alio_ Nstigititx • • 0 • ic- for defraying the salariti and contingent expenses of th e Ads& extent to COSIIMITIO ' .II, 011 illt a irMdollll, if Lb,. the Hon. Baronet sot fek iiii. .Wai t lit tatty Office for the year ending the 6th of January, ISO." et number wove " - 1 -- duty, '44 terra or as witieb he bad Irsin brososheis t waps !rn Sir M.W. RIDLEY rose for the purpose of moving, the coargoettslistist 16W:till, fretis the. want of :a !Which he misted on two grOttedit...4*ei t the .; '. . ' . l it_ as an Amendment, a sav i ng i n t hi s grant , by the re- sutEciatt'unpstest to coei4tittne a Board% both ;Anon.. of econov ; and secondly, and pore cod'. +r • . on duction of the two junior Lord s o f t h e Ad m i r alty.— The proposed stdeetion•wonld take away two of the theigsoa . that the - abolnien ef . Asian/lath . ' .• 1 ' .v i t , He thought the distress of the country at the present Lay Lords. Now he had no hesitation in saying that produce a salutary diminatioss of the inlbeneofef . • hi s moment a sufficient excuse for his troubling the Com- there were many of t h e d ut i es w hi c h t h ey were re - C rown i n Parliame n t. T o these twripolnab*4llNndd .._ mittp.. with Oh:. .......*:,.... ..h:-.1, h.A 1........... ...a...5..A nn .....:..hl to ..;..... f... __t_...__ ._ -t-- _l__—'l- - P • ... 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