Star. — London, England, 1823-05-01 00:00:00

I. much vigour and with the same effect, as in thi contest in which we had engaged. (Hear, hear.l Mr. LEYCESTER rose to repel the assertion the present was a question of peace or war— -the tion was only, whether, in those transactions w►, the HOUSO had been investigating, the conduct of Majesty`i Ministers was justifiable or otherwise ? had in vain looked to the documents on the table inch raltWeirtin. * That House had with one proclaimed the infamy and atrocity of the condos of the French Government ; but a Noble Person in, another place was repined to have defended that conduct—and fortunately in such defence that No- ble Person stoodilone. Who could not laugh if such a man there be? • Who would not weep if that great Duke were he? (A laugh.) If the'principles declared by the Deke of Buckingham could be carried into effect, Feiclinand the Seventh would have nothing to do but to hang up those illustrious patriots, Arguelles and San Miguel.' The Hon. Gentleman concluded by giving his sup port to the original motion. Mr. W. WILLIAMS did not intend going into the question at great length. He was sorry to say, that in the papers on the table he saw nothing that ought not to be condemned by that House. It was stated, on the other side, that dangers might arise to this from the people of other countries seeking to model their own upon the British Constitution. He cer tainly never expected to have heard such a declara tion in that House. Under all the circumstances, he neither approved of the original motion nor Of the amendment. He could not conscientiously vote on either side. There was a course which, in his opi nion, the House ought to adopt on so important an occasion. All party feeling ought to cease, and Par liament should speak to France the strong language of remonstrance. France had acknowledged princi ples which might be considered a just cause of wat, if war could be thought justifiable at all in the pre sent condition of things. It might not then be diffi cult to teconcile the Houie. They might join in an Address, establishing a piinCiple which might tend to restore peace to Europe, by solemnly disapproving of the encroachments upon the Spanish nation (Ilear). Mr." W. PEEL rose to express his gratitud2 to his Majesty's Ministers for the conduct which they had pursued ; and in doing so, he was confident that he was speaking the sentiments of the great majority of the People. So far from having degraded the coun try by the policy which had been pursued at Verona, he though that the way to degrade it would be to plunge it into war. Ile would ask those Gentlemen who were the firit to call far war, whether they would net be the last to grant to Government the increased supplies which war would require—(llear, It would be ridiculous to argue that the resources of this country -were not suffiCiently ample to enable it to embark in a ivii k if war were necessary for its interests or honoui.• That country, to which every other country appealed, Ind to which every other country was indebted, was surely not, the only coun try which could not support a war. That they pos sessed resources for a War was indisputable ;- but the question was, whether those resources should be hus banded, or squandered away unnecessarily. With regard to France hex self, no man felt moreconvinced of the folly and impolicy of her proceedings. He shOuld support the amendment ; for be felt, that in suppirtaing it, We *as not only expressing his own feelings, but.the feelings of his constituents and the feelingS of the People in general. told PALNItILSTON said, that he v ished to draw the attention of the !louse to the real question before it. As to the injustice or the war commenced by trance, there could Only exist one opinion. In the negociatiOn of the, Biitish Government there had bledtwo lines Of conduct Open for it to pursue. They might have limited their negcieiations to a friendly attempt to Vreieree peace, eithout involving them se ties in the halatd of twat ;. and they might have determined to embark at r:ce in the fortunes of Spain, and have declared their intention to engage in war as soon as the French army had passed the Pyrennees. But whatever line of conduct they pur sued, they ha , l been bound to be consistent. For his own part, he felt as strongly on the subject of the invasion .of Spain, as Those whose complaints were more frequent and more loud. But he should be sorry to live under the present . Constitution of Spain. lie felt that it possessed great and glaring defects— that it was not possible to go on in the state in which it now was—that it contained within itself the seeds of dissolution—and that, instead of producing the happiness of the people, it would , scatter the elements of civil discord—(Hear, henry.—Was there anything, thou, inconsiderate or blameable in the conduct of the itish Government in requesting the Spanish Govern ment to comet those evils, and to adopt measures which would haVe secured to it external peaCe and in ternal concord ? An objection had been taken to the channel in which .the British recommendation bad been sent. In his opinion there was no person who could in terfere in the affairs of Spain n ith less suspicion than the Duke of Wellington. It had been often and truly said that the strongest tits %vete created by a sense of benefits conferred, and never had any individual cop ferred greater benefit on a nation than the Puke of Wellington had conferred On Spain. However splendid the exertions Of the Noble Duke might have been in Other parts of the globe, yet it had been in Spain that his brightest lattieli had been gatherei.— It had been in the provintes df Bpain that he had first displayed the qualities of ail uncbnquered General and a sagacious Statesthaii. Was it then in human nature for the Duke of Wellington not to feel a lively interest in the altars of Spain ? Or was it posiible that Spain could suppose th - at the Man, who, after contest of :if long years, had rescued her from the power of the ihiaciet, touted urge Der to any act in . compatible. with het faletir ot hbfibut The British Goeettimebt had thetelbre selected the Duke of Wellington ; and in doing so they badshewn a regard to the feelings of the Spithiards, as well as displayed their ownibrigineht in the selection.—Th furtunatelt the eiertioni of the Duke bad been un successful. The contectiehte had been war ; and he Indeed would in a bold prophet who pretended to foresee its termination. As shallow, however, would be that politician who phinted out war as the policy of this country. It was notorious that Spain was di vided within herself: no doubt it was possible that a feeling Of general indignation, on the approach of an invader, might Mute the Spaniards to bitty . their .differences,' and nuke all parties unite ; but it was alistlerti c til l ight , and , who war aphid. nee they lieerity of thetiatioo 'Government - report: let ifwar was objecs it less so in_policy. fhe -veggie unexample she had begun to recover that struggle had imposed. to be chosen to engage in another war—a wai which was not called for by any consideration affecting British interest or honour, but to maintain and defend abstract theories? It had been said that this war would not be of the same length or expense as the former, and that nothing would be necessary but to assist Spain with our ships. But what was the danger with which Spain was now threatened ? It was by an army that.they were now' threatened ; and could that danger be averted by sending them a fleet? Never had a measure been pro posed less adequate to the end proposed. By the as sistance of a fleet they might blockade every port in France; but unless that fleet were also used to trans port an army, and provisions for that army, the ex pedition would merely display •the ostentation of parade, and the money expended on its equipment would be entirely thrown away. By such conduct England would expose herself to the derision of France. But it might be said that we might assist Spain with money. Money might certainly be em ployed in organising regular armies; but those armies would be dispersed, and the hopes of Spain be lost with them. It was not by regular armies, or in pitched battles, that Spain could expect to repulse France. It was to that irregular mode of defence so clearly pointed out by the nature of the country and the habits of the people, that Spain must look for success. It was in that war alone that Spain could defend herself; and in that war they would require no money to assist them. But if England took part at all, it could only be by furnishing a large army ; and then, from the moment that the first British sol dier set his foot in Spain, this country would be made a p - .;:lcipal in the war. To send an army to Spain unequal to the force to which it would be exposed, would tarnish the honour which England had ac quired, and the laurels which she bad reaped in for mer contests. By the line of conduct which England had pursued, her resources were kept unimpaired for any future emergency, io which British interest or honour might require them to engage in war. The • Nobly Lord concluded by supporting the amendment. COlonel DAVIES said, that as far as his own feel ings were concerned, it the debate of t:•at night were to decide the question of peace or war, be should de cide for war; but he was aware that indi vidual feel ing ought not to prejudice the question. - Hethought that a manly declaration of the seatittients of the Bri tish Government, either at Paris or Verona, ;aright Save arrested that war in which, ere long, this coun.. .try would be called on to engage. It was scarcely necessary for him to refer to the Papers in their hands to prove that in the negociation England has Constantly leaned to the stronger party against the beaker. It was impossible that England cotild•long keep aloof from the war. The honourable Member Concluded by giving his support to the original Mo tion—Cesies of a the Lord Mayor," 6 , Sir F. Blake," Mr. Horace Twins," and " Question," followed.j Mr. HORACE TWISS rose, amidst considerable confusion, to Make some observations, as d,e Hon. Member stated, in reply to the speech which, had been delivered by the gallant Golonel.—Mr. wiss proceeded afterwards in his observation But it was impossible to collect two consecutive sentences ; he was understood to reason upon the conduct of the Hon. Member opposite s who condemned the nego. ciations of Ministers. Ills Majesty's. Ministers were blamed for having advised an alteration in the Spa. dish Constitution: yet what had been their real ob jtct ? They had endeavoured to effect some com promise between two Powers opposed to each other, and were they therefore guilty of a dereliction of I duty ? The Hon. Baronet opposite had recommended the withdrawing of the British Minister from Paris, and what would that act have produced ? It would cause great injury to England, and could produce ne good to Spa; s. If, according to the reasoning of those Hon. Members, the British Government had a right to declare war. against France oa its entering, Spain, did not that right still continue, and would not that declaration of war be as useful to the Spaniards new, as it could have hitherto bleu?--_ Yet why did Honourable Members not recommend it? Because they knew that nine-tenths bf the people, of England were averse from the toMmencement of the war. If England was to declare war because, France had, through the fatuity of her councils, been guilty. of injustice, when was England to have peace? Was England to become a political knight errant, , ever seeking grounds for righting the _wrongs com mitted by other nations? As to the dangers which the Honourable and Learned Member for Knares box ough saw in the seizure of Spain by the Duke of Angoulerne, they were mere visions; for bow could the Honourable and Learned Member think that.the imbecile Bourbons, as he called them, could wield the power of two such nations to the injury of Great Britain? The Honourable Members on the opposite side appealed now to the state of &gland as capable of effecting by her resources great changes if she en gaged in war; yet no one . could forget that those very Members bad, not more than a few months ago, been in the continual habit of deploring the misery of tire nations—He would not trespass on the atten tion of the Howe; and although he had some further observations to make, he would yield to its wishes. IThe Hon. aqd Learned Member than at down, and Lord toßtestoist anit Sir &ands Blake rose at the same time; *then ides Of" ISt Blak4* Were beitd from all parts of the Houle.] Sit P. BLAHS then proceeded to state, that now when liberty was at Stake in Spain, the English na tion seemed to cod p.but if he were a Spaniard, he Should say, that whoever was not With him Wit against him. The English Government had acted wrong, in allowing themselves to be duped by 'the speciousness and address of the French Diplomatists, who said a great deal to Induce England to believe ' that aggitinditement was not the object of their at tack on Spain (hear, hear.)—lf the Spaniards should now by the good fortune of war beat the French id: vaders out of their tOuntry, and in their turn Invade France, would England net interfere its behalf of the latter country P Sire nettaialy wodld; and shy riot eth take interfere on behalf of Spain? (hear t hear.). I entleman wish* fzit-aeutrality i , tit all tls,e Mioisterial - 6Mlier , S, Atralitfr-tivict nesseralitip-;- ' *ghat+ ~ Tes," , ,gap-. tit ide we ate to hate neutrM bonnets *in be: Icrs, when advertising y the Right Han. Gen tleman'—(Cheeps, erati loud Laughter). Btis neutrality is no favourite with the ladies—(Reilereted bursts of Laughter); for what is the use of it—what will be effected _by it? I will tell the Right Hon. Gentle: man, in the appropriate words of the Poet- , It ti-es nothing all the day I' "_(The whole House resounded tuith Laughter at the concluding observation of the Honourable Baronet.) Lord FOLKSTON It rose to express his sentiments on this Important subject, although he had already detained the Heusi by his declamation on a former night, so at least said Honour able and Right Honourable Gentlemen opposite, who were fond of quizzing—(li. err, hear). —The Noble Lord then proceeded to advert to what had been said on the observations made by him on a former night, and to express his surprise that the Secretary of State for Foreign - Affairs bad not yet deigned to enlighten the House. on this subject. He bad, indeed, heard a rumour out of the House that the Right lion. Gentleman had determined not to speak till after .an lion. and Learned Friend of his—(llear). —(Mr. Cameo expressed dissent]—the Right Hon. Gentleman denied the truth of the rumour ; be was glad to hear it. for he could not but think it ptrange that the Secretary for Foreign A& ' fairs had so long held back—(Hear, hear). He trusted he should soon hear all explanation from the Right lion. Gentleman, and though the Right Hon. Gentleman had on a former night de clared he would not truckle to hint—(Order,, order, from Mr. R. Martin).—lf he was disorderly, he hoped the Hon. hlembee who called Order so loudly, would explain how he was dis orderly—( Hear, hear). t Mr. MARTIN said he certainly had called the Noble Lord to order, because he considered the Noble Lord was ecinsutoing the time of the House in adverting to what had passed lu debate on a former night. Lord FOLKSTONE acknowledged that the lion. Gentle man was, in strictness, correct. Ile would not trespass further on the House on this subject, but he hoped other Gentlemen would also be kept in the like course of order. The Noble Lord then proceeded to review and condemn the whole course of the Negotiation; and contended that the national tumour and inte rests had been sacrificed-to a desire to preserve peace, which, by our concessions, was rendered insecure for an instant. Mr. LITreRTON felt that an apology was necessary from hint for now trespassing 'on the House, when they were so im patient to hear an Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr.lirougham), who, when these Papers were presented, had pledged httnseltto make them a ground of serious charge against Ministers— (Hear, hear),—and be was sure that Honourable and Learned Gentleman was too liberal and too high-minded to lie by till after the Right Hon. Gentleman near him (Mr. Canning) had spoken—(Hear, hear), and then bring forward the charge when the accused would have no opportunity of answering him— (Loud cries of Hear). As to the Negotiations, and the deter mination of Ministers to preserve peace if possible, he must re turn them his most grateful thanks in the name and on the behalf 'of the tradesmen and manufacturers of the country, to whom peace was so desirable. Mr. Secretary CANNING then rose to address the House amidst universal cheering. As soon as the applause with which the Bight Hon. Gentleman was received had in some degree subsided, he proceeded to express his unfeigned sorrow that he should stand in the way of any lion. Gentleman who was desirous of addressing the House-on that occasion ; but con sidering the length of time which die debate had al ready occupied—considering the lateness of the hour, he felt some apprehensions that he should waste his own strength, and exhaust the patience of the House, if he abstained any longer from giving his opinion, in the discharge of his duty, upon the policy by which the Government had been guided in the course of ne gociations as important to the country; and as full of difficulty, as any negociations that ever fell under the management of a fortner-Goestrnment—(iear). If gratitude could be due to suit -man for an uncon scious act of kindness, he heiitated not to declare that to the Hon. Gentleman, the Mover of the present Ad dress, he felt extremely grateful ; for although he was before generally apprized of the degree of con sent and concurrence on the part of Members of that House with regard to the conduct of the Government during the late negetiations—although he had re ceived too a pretty clear intimation of the general sense of the country upon that question, yet, m under the peculiar circumstances with which the Papers Were laid en the table of that House, he could hOt, in the ordinary cowrie pursued by (11Overtrtnent, call for the specific opinion a the House upon those Papers ; he therefore felt grateful to the Honourable Gentle- Min for the perfectly manly iirsii% candid manner in Which be had brought these tiegbeiaticlis ender the honsideration of the House ; and he hoped that he Would turn out the instrument, hotetWel - stitrintentional, bf adding tb the appibbation of the country the re- Corded opinion of the House Of Cottufionsa(Cheers). The country stood in ii peculiar iituation with re spect to these siegbeitilioni: It was not admitted that peace or war was the tonseqUence of these tregocia lionsy yet peace dr wat' Was the Usual atttrldant upon begociations. Almost all the Members who had ad dressed the Houte ftont the opposite sitie-,he be lieved all but two lretionrable exieptions--had ad-' valued that this was a question Of peace or war. The denial cattle with a suspicions singularity from those Who had before been clamorous foi war. Occasions had been taken to tell the House that cries had been bused and caps flung Op for arms- , -(A laugh)—but the cap which had thus been Rung 'down WU not picked up by either of the Hon. Gentlemen—(Laugh ter). Neither would acknowledge—neither would wear it. He denied that, upon a fair construction of the negociations, any man could for a moment assert that it was a question of peace orwar which this Government had to consider and-to determine. The negociations were to be judged with . reference to the war which was to be avoided, and peace to be obtained—(Hebr,hedr). How, he would ask, was it possible that these negociations could be discussed, unless, iu the first instance, the object was admitted, to which they were dire c ted?—(H ear , h ear ). Th ey were directed to peace—(Hear)—to Treace, if possible, for all the world-16 peace; in the second place, for the nations around es—andi lastly, to peace, at all events, for this country, and that peace consistent with its faith, its interest, and its honour—(Kear, hear). — The negociations :War:idly divided themselies into two parts. - The first qitestion to be determined was, as to the . rectitude 'of our object; and the second point we had to 'decide was—Did we go the right Way about the accomplishment of that object ? Ai to the question of whether u e , ght to go to war, he ,should postpone iti consider o n f or the present; ' merely observing, that if Gen tlemen could contend, that war was an imperative duty, the other consi 'derations might not inconveniently, in their judg ment; be . abandoned • altogether. ;Tow,. in looking it these Papers as directed, in the first instance, to 'the preOttintion of peaCc beivrieti France and Spain; " 'also possible thatelaßoy,l; le last of the assittance otfranct ; by **aging in a war a n that not besuppo rt i ng thi minarit goes- infix) ltzsposa a forks 'of Gov which wishes of the majority ? But of his in principle, it was not less ? He had just recovered from a st de for history of the world; and s voice from the burthens which th induct I Was that then the moment waitieW Gentleman wisl ) could sa# j do dfaillkibdired, that all tls,e they might . 1 ail now Was—" 4Welittality- in attempt- not barneutrality"-.:(Largz ;rant to the dmied4l). lion. Baronet, " I sum lectionable save fashions now, and,t hat neat fhe nation in rogue, and the newspapers, ipled in the them, will say, • patronised by di land, lastly, to the preservation of thepeate:444 country, they would find that the nego&atinas uta tasrally divided themselves into three stage,. It eb b - csf s g„, place, as to what had been done at Vtrons, In the second place, as to what related " FT .1 (NMI and thirdly, as to that part or the,e which related to Spain--(Hear, hear).-: - And ben t he must observe upon that Which Was not t ee smallest fallacy, universally pervading the argi l s %lents of Honourable Gentlemen opposite—that o u pp selected from one part of the correspondeaCe thi• which applied to a different time and circumstance, ' They extracted a passage from one part of the nese. ciations, and applied it to another. For instance, O l e- Honourable Baronet (Sir Francis But Jets) - adopting an argument - which he had heard In another plan t and which, as he had borrowed it, was the only wet* and useless part of his argument—following is a& with the air and gesture of the Noble propr:etof the idea, and. causing in the minds of his hea r ** from the very inflection of his manner, an into's* tary recurrence to the line of the poet— • Quiddignum Santo feret hie promisee' Mato." " Come what exclaimed the Hon. Baronet-At l i, Majesty will be no party to any interference" If dill . lion. Baronet conceived that that instcnction apollerr to the whole of the negotiations—if he supposed that it applied to the interference of France oith Spit, or that it referred to an advanced state of the pecir eeedings —though such an opinion be admitted, if well founded, would make something for his argurnentda, yet as it really did happen to apply merely to Ilse AIN lies in their corporate capacity, when theinva,i nn . Spain was proposed as a subject in which the ittetallf of all were concerned, that declaration was t bW made—that his Majesty to such a proceeding "mule form no party, even though the dissolution of Air Alliance should prove the consequence of that taiti: Sal. (Cheers.) If, then, the Hon. Baronet would heft the goodness to follow up that eaper Moon batteis,. that art of sinking in instruction, he would fi o ,i o tit i s the proceedings of the Allies had been paialted ry that declaration, and that lions tit inno.eat thoughts of making the invasion of Strain a johtt np‘..i ration were abandoned —(Hear, hear.) It pOhtit, its in mechanics, success • consisted in achieving the; greatesrobject by the least power, the negaciati had proved eminently successful. (.ISar.)—iliEst: had not overstepped the decorum due to Powers withr whom they were then in friendly discussion,. they bad, however, used menace adequate to its object 4 • and no idle waste of winds had been displayed, where such an exhibition must have proved injurious or at least useless—calculated rather to irritate the temper than to convince the understanding. And who were the witnesses of this declaration and its result? the first was the Duke de Montmorency, who dtoinctly declared in his Note to the Duke of Wellington, that England had actually discountenanced and disdained all connexion with those principle. which led to the invasion of Spain. His words were, !. the success of which meaures would have been completely cured if England had thought she could concur is them." Alluding to the otfered mediation of &glad, " He thinks that with such feelings that Government may tender essential service to 'Europe, by offering is the like manner to the Government of Spain, advice, which by leading 'them to entertain more Cahn• views, might produce a happy influence na is/- internal situation 6f that country"—(llear,hsse): In the next plane, he had the testimony of Sir Wik Hain A'Court,in big report from M. de San Migad,,; thanking _England for the part she had taken, mil looking forward to her interference and effects/lapel sistarite, and trusting that the exercise of her fluence to prevent war would not be denied. lie third witneis, for whose favourable X 4 6 . deg. joint uremia certainly not prepared, vas the . for Westminster (14r. Hobhouse). for the Government, bad wandered from au accidental intercourse - Requited information upon this much more of truth in it thin atite-chamber reports: he had, there the intention of invading Spain of the Allies had been given he (kr. Canning), the Liberal Wai to blame for the failure of (CAiwri).--If anything then was it was the successful terminate. The great object of omit hegoelation the pint onion of tho Allied dOvh to the Insulated point out object was to diminish the Power% against one'to a separate intentions of the Alliance at question to nation and nation evils between their ordinary list of usual diplomacy. Our col question of those objections wl in the course of this debate, - - bounds of allegiance and duty perintehdence of the Holy A!' complished—(Heer). But after seriously urged is this—not that but that we spoke is too low _ our success might, however, the moderation of which we Such was a charge made by many bens, amongst whom mint not ' Friend the , Member for Bramber. language was necessary on have watched with reverence from his who am quite Friend had more in view the version on the principle for whir the danger of its tendency—l, Hon. Friend felt for the calamil world by the non-observance feel but too well that the copies hoverer honourable and just, have but too little effect en the life, and still less on the political macy, and therefore was not ing to Vieth. His topics are something of ill taste might perhaps ing them to countriis not feeling ' of his mind; and, if we had urges we might have incurred the charge chit rant and hypocrisy—with having froM the book of that Holy. Alliance, wMeht'stts, different views r bad resorted to e If Such topics Wet* sted . by only tended ,to prodeien painful 'who had not followed them. P" which prevailed at Verona;. and our object.waN Po fer se lei ~b ~u *1 4 'll caer kei 'ii lb ni X l O eau dot ast MI m g Wag ice ] ve lit ptl it* et Neil and to a rourable testimony he eras fer dm Honourable Member Tie W h ruci se eted Itioe, frt -- Ve ° ron tl a, "areP ani l i purse with persons that,: i this subject which be the thin usually belonged w• eft pad, there ascertained dia l it pain as a joint operable n up in despair, and der tat Minister of Englillt: Ou of so popular a pniicf«..; ire was to be imputed to bait $ Rion of these negotiations: Jul goelsttion was to prune for i Powers, and to k' at a re sit of France andipsile ) Wi the •hostility of they* hi] arate cause, and frost. mg at Vehltta to 'redoes dil Cat ion; to bring irapersdig in 1 • size and within the mph 0 o' jeet was to strip IW' Om which were so ablystillil 14 Ite, and to keep Wit* de luty the sueopagetiesitok: kilienee r and that we . ;1 1 after all, the ofsly c that we had done a • on r a tone,—a tone in whit* W. er, be frustrated, butie lia we secured our objstteias nig many Honoarabie liview tie not be omitted my dirt, *SI amber. He said nrellif 0 6 n our part. Bat I, sillt a :e everything that code MS rite aware that net AO ofi he solemn air deli.* lem which he contended 1110 . Fra —I, who know how Of fan [amities accruing . to g ilt' Wee eof mend prirsoplor Ildi pies on which hi - kV; st, would' in sal' i vtln the ordinary bulimia! she ideal business of • Pra' tso scrupulous ;name cal re of a higher mut, 04 leps perhaps be used in eat bac cling the moral tk - LINN orguithose moral OW veil charge of indulging* anti I w A to ll th i t a i r se h av , i t i g p hi ics. c7_, n t t o li a cul m a to n s t r i i it 'by us they would WS such aisfultinferiority in MO roost t. i knew the ?Omit. sired . _...!.._. ...• 16- Illi All.