Star. — London, England, 1822-07-16 00:00:00

.__~, ,--", -Tr, the spirit of the British Constitution, and therefore null and void. In pursuance of what was called a right of search. thisfoieign vessel, within fifty miles of the Dutch coast, in time of peace, had been treated precisely as th ough under t he circumstancesjiagranfe hello. And if this were to be permitted, he asked, where would be the security for British merchantmen from similar treatment at the h ands of foreign nations? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that not having heard of this case before, he could give no information respecting it. He had no doubt, how ever, that it would be found that them were circum• stances to 'instil) , the imprisonment of the men, but he begged to suggest that there were other ways of obtaining justice, were it not so, than by applying to Parliament. 'British vessels assuming foreign flags, did not except them from the operation of the laws. TIIE 1.0110 GOLLINGWOOD. In answer to a question from Mr. REN NET, The M ar quis of LONDONDERRY said, that from the inquiries he had made relative to the reported de, tention of the British vessel, the Lord Culling wooslo, by a Spanish privateer, in January last, in.conso.l quence of die blockade of Buenos Ayres, it appeate& that it was not in any shape connected with the Spa nish colonial laws, as had been stated in that House. He had written immediately to the Spanish Ambas sador, who was totally ignorant of the circumstance, and was not aware of the existence of any privateer of the name that had been stated, nor.did be know anything of the blockade. He received the same an. suer from the Board of Trade, and the matter was now in course' of investigation by our Minister at Madrid, as well en the part of this Government as on the part of the Spanish Ambassador here. He as sured the Hon. Member that the utmost attention was paid to the British commercial interests in this parti cular, and that no violation of rights of the nature alluded to would be suffered to pass unnoticed. At the same time he might obserie, that a distinct noti fication hAd been made sonic time back that this country could not acquiesce in the colonial laws of Spain—(Hear, hear). Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH considered the ex planation of the Noble Marquis as of a most gratify ing nature ; for it was certainly most necessary to the well being of our commercial interests that they should know that they will be protected against law less invasion and interruption. It was of great im portance to their security, that in commercial laws, right should be merely incident to possession. —The. Petition was then ordered to be printed. TIIE GREEKS. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, he rose to pre. sent a Petition, which, though signed by few names, and of a novel description, was entitled to the atten tion of the House, and particularly of the Noble Marquis at the head of the Foreign Department. The Znition was from some individuals at Macclesfield, and couched in warm, but as regarded the House, respectful language, in reference to the sufferings of the Greeks--(Hear, hear). —It was in language of that kind in which the feelings of mankind were usually expressed relative to such transactions, and he was satisfied that the sentiments were such as per vaded all classes of persons in his Majesty's domi nions, and would be more generally expressed, were it not for the difficulty that existed of pointing out any practical effects to which it might lead—(Hear, hear). These sentiments, he willingly avowed, were his own ; and although he could not but see that any interrup tion at present of the general tranquillity of Europe, would be a most unspeakable calamity to this coun try, yet he thought that a simultaneous effort of all the Governments of Europe in favour of that op pressed nation, could not but be effectual. What-pm. bability there might be of obtaining such st'cornbina tion of the Governments of Europe for so excellent a purpose, he must leave those who were better ac quainted with them to say ; but he would venture to assert, that a failure in such a cause would be ho nourable to any Government who should make the attempt—(Hear). Such an attempt would be worthy of the Government of such a nation as this, and it would be in the spirit of the ancient policy of this country towards oppressed nations. Tertitoiial secu rity was the only security that could be thought of for the Greeks ; for even the despotic sway of the Turkish Divan would be unable to wive from its barbarian subjects the observance of any stipulated safety. The only way, then, was to give the Greeks possession of their territory, with a guarantee from all the Powers of Europe, without being affixed to the interests cf any one--(Hear, heal). The Petition having been read, Mr. HUME asked if it was true that refuge had been refused to the flying Greeks in the lonian Isles, seeking shelter from their murderers? He had received information to that effect from good authority ; but notwithstanding he had said, and still thought, that 'the acts of the individual at the head of those Islands were contrary to the spirit of the British Constitu tion, and notwithstanding all he had said of him, he could not believe that he could have issued an order so contrary to the principles of humanity. He had also heard that morning of some individual con nected with the naval service of this country having gone out to assist the Turkish fleets. He hoped this was not true, for it certainly was incumbent upon his Majesty's Government to obse: ve as strict vigilance in this respect, with reference to the oppressors, as they did towards the insurgents. Mr. WILNIOT said, he was utterly unaware of any measure having been taken by the Lord High Commissioner to repulse the flying Gieeks from the lonian Islands. There were acts against their 'per manent residence; but he did not suppose these would be put in force in such a case. He cer tainly had received no information up to that morn- I ing, to countenance the supposition that the Lord 1 High Commissioner had issued any order contrary to the principles of humanity. With reference to the latter allusion in the speech of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, be could only say, in the absence of others More competent, that there was an order of the Ad miralty against anything of the kind which the Hon. Gentleman had stated to have occurred. -Mr. C. HUTCHINSON could not permit this op portunity to pass without expressing his horror at the conduct of his Majesty's Government in not afford ing more protection to the Greeks. He considered war, in the present stateof this country, as the greatest calamity that could befall it, except a peace upon dishouousable terms, such as uo great empire could . long exist uncle: the InAllittefteelif character. Me gave great credit to h is irsty's Government for the exertions at Constantlnop e, to maintain-peace between Russia and Turkey. But a the object of those exertions were havoc on the one side, with im• punity to the other, he proclaimed it conduct 'dis graceful and Antis Christian. He called upon his Majesty's Ministers to declare, upon their honour, whether the establishment of 'peace befween Russia and Turkey left the Greeks open to massacre, or u that had been specially provided for. If not, he should say there was no• free spirit in that House, if it prorogued before obtaining a guarantee in favour of that unfortunate people. He would tell the pea. ple of this country, suffering as he knew they were, that peace, under such circumstances, was a die honour to them. He did not expect anything from Ministers ;he appealed to the People. He held the policy of Ministers, ever since the peace, in abhor. rence—they had been doing all they could to violate the most sacred principles of right. He appealed, therefore, not to them, but to men, such as the Hon. Member for Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce), opposite, who was not lost to every sense of religion and honour. .The despots of Europe he knew had succeeded every where, but in this country, in crushing the germs of liberty. He wevrejoiced to see the struggles against 'tyranny making in Spain and elsewhere, and he hoped to-see the tables of both' Houses loaded with Peti tions on thi . s subject, to awaken them from their le thargy, and rouse them to exert their influence to check the further effusion of human blood—(Hear). Mr. WILBERFORCE, having been applied to by the Hon. Oentieman, begged to assure him that , for the cause of the unh appy Greeks, it was impossible that any one could feel more warmly than himself —(Hear).—lndeed, he should hope that there could be but one feeling among generous and enlightened and Christian minds on their behalf. It was, in truth, rather a disgrace to all the Powers of Europe, that long ere now they had not made a simultaneous effort, and driven back a nation of barbarians, the ancient and inveterate enemies of Christianity and freedom, into Asia. He was at all times far, indeed, from advocating war (more especially where to under take it was to expose the tesources and the welfare of the State to imminent hazard), unless, indeed, peace could only be acquired at the price of disgrace and infamy. At the same time he must declare, that he knew of no case in which the power of a mighty country like England could be more nobly, more generously, or more justifiably exerted than in res cuing the Greeks from bondage and destruction ! The Marquis of LONDONDERRY protested against the practice of entering into a discussion of so comprehensive a question upon the occasion of a Petition being presented.—He could not avoid, how ever, remarking . on the readiness of the greatest friends of peace in that House, at times to plunge into the bloodiest wars. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Wil berforce) had disclosed to them a problem to drive into Asia the whole population of European Turkey, to the number of fout or five millions of infidels. Those who knew something of the character of these' barbarians, might perhaps think that they would not be disposed to yield willing obedience to the mandate of European Sovereigns for their transportation.' After the bloody war they had seen terminated, if such an attempt were made, their prospects of a long peace would, he feared,, be found premature. We should not, however, allow himself to be led into the discussion of a question, which both politically or morally was as large as any which could occupy his mind. The House would do injustice to his Majesty's Ministers, if they supposed that their efforts at Con stantinople were confined to prevent war between Turkey and Russia.—(Hear).—He could not, how ever, coincide with the Hon. Member's (Mr. Hutchin son) views relative to the management of the Foreign Department, and of the politics of Europe. It must not be supposed that the barbarities of the Turks were without parallel or provocation, and that no thing was to be deplored in this war but their atro cities. The Greeks were certainly making efforts to free themselves from that thraldom under which their state could not but be that of misery, and in the efforts to mitigate their sufferings by this Govern ment, it was to be borne in mind, that the Rulers of , their enemies, the Turks, enormous as was their de- 1 spotic power, could not always put in execution what they were willing to do, through the mass of preju- I dice and passion with which they had to contend. But still the works of ferocity and cruelty which had marked this war on the part of the Greeks, were of the most painful nature. It was not to be supposed that the tide of barbarity flowed only in one direction. If this country were wild enough to embark in a cru sade to establish good order in that country, the whole power of Europe would not be able to con troul the effervescence of the elements of discord that would be excited. He called upon Parliament to keep its mind temperate and cool on the question. They had done much for the peace of the world, and might rely upon it that his Majesty's Government would do all they possibly could to preserve the ge neral tranquillity, with the security of the Greeks &-v (Hear, hear) —although they were not sanguine in their expectations of accomplishing the banishment of the population of European Turkey into Asia. Sir ROBERT WILSON was convinced, that the Greeks, with proper assistance, might establish their emancipation. He hoped that orders would be given to maintain a fair neutrality in the lonian Islands. Lord A. HAMILTON. observed, that if he had rightly understood the Noble Marquis to say that the whole of the Holy Alliance had not influence enough to procure from the Turkish Government the cessation of their atrocities, it followed of course that the war between that Power and the Greeks could not stop till the annihilation of one or the other party. Whatever the Noble Lord might intend with regard to the lonian Islands, he must say, that he did not expect that a fair neutrality would be preserved. Sir ROBERT WILSON asked whether the same respect would be paid to the Greek flag as had been to the South American ? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that the regulations for a rigid neutrality bad been made with regard to the lonian Islands, and if the Noble Lord opposite knew of any circumstance of a contrary ten dency, he hoped he would mention it, with a view to its being examined. He knew of no interference that had taken plate with regard to the Gree k com mercial flag. Neutrality was also observed to armed v e ssels of both Powers. • The Petition was then ordered to be printed. / of sentiments the, real petitioners, Brewers. But few of the Licensed Victuallers, he believed, felt otherwise than well disposed towards the Bill, at least such was their interest. -He was strongly confirmed in this view of the case from a letter he bad received from a Brewer's Licensed Vic tualler, which informed him that it was the practice of the great Brewers in his neighbourhood to sign those Victuallers' names to their Petit iom which they could not otherwise obtain; and that his name had I l been signed, after his refusal to do so, without seeing the paper. There was then a postscript stating the undersigned to beg to subscribe their names, praying that the Brewers' monopoly might be discontinued. This shewed (he might go more into the subject on a future day) that there were two classes of Licensed Innkeepers, the one managing property of their own, the other being entrusted with that of the Brewers. The first was against anything being done that might affect the monopoly at present enjoyed by the Brewers; but this was by nc, means the case with the second class, who wished for an open trade, that they might be at liberty to buy and sell a wholesome beve rage, instead of that which was now in the first in stance forced on the Publican, and subsequently,' through his means, on the Public, to the injury both of the Brewer and himself, who were in conse quence forced from the alehouse to the gin-shop. He had attended to all the objections urged against the Bill, and every reason for it, without e xception;; one alter the other, rising one above another, made, in his judgment, in favour of the Bill. He had re-', ceived many letters on this subject; one of the last of which stated that which was to this effect—" that DO person would go to the alehouse if Parliament should enable him to purchase good beer at a chandler's shop, and therefore the Brewer . must be knocked up." It was assumed that better beer'would, if this Bill passed, be sold at chandler: shops than the Brewer would ptit at the disposal of the Publican. A second reason urged against the Bill was, that no man would send his daughter to an alehouse for porter, if she could get it by going to a place where she would meet with more decent company, which it was sup posed would be the case if beer were to be purchased at a chandler's shop. The first objection to the Bill was, that it would injure the sale of bad beer; the second, that it would tend to preserve the morals of the poor, as the poor man would send his daughter to the chandler's shop, where she was less liable to ; be corrupted than if sent to the alehouse. He now thought he had made out what he had stated, that the reasons urged against the Bill made in its favour. For the regulations which might be necessary to guard against injuring any property that demanded protection, these would be for the consideration of the Committee, and in the Committee no man would be more anxious than himself to remove. every just ground of complaint on that account. The Petitions were ordered to lie on the table. IRISH INSURRECTION ACT. Mr. GOULBURN moved the Order of the Day for reading the Irish Insurrection Bill a third time. Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON, without approving of those disorders in Ireland, which no loyal man could view but with feelings of deep 'regret, felt it neces sary to explain the motives which regulated his con duct. He considered the House to be now in pos session of the measures which the Government meant to propose in the present Session of Parliament— looking at these, he had no hesitation in saying, that . enough had not been done for the relief of Ireland.— It was now twenty-two years since the Union, which was intended to consolidate the interests of the two Islands, but the hopes held out to Ireland were not ti realized. He did not ascribe the famine which now prevailed to the measures of Ministers ; nor did he quarrel with Ministers for not effecting a commuta tion of tithes ; but what he quarrelled with them for was this, that they had never inquired into the situa tion of Ireland, till they were compelled to do so by some impending calamity. He complained that the promise held out in the King's Speech, at the be ginning of the Session, had not been made good.— He contended that the Irishman was made of good stuff—was fit to be trusted, and if his good qualities were obscured, it only proved that there was some thing radically wrong in the system of Government. He dissented from the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and the Noble Marquis, who thought that Ireland had already engaged enough of the attention of Parliament, and that all had been done that could be done. He eulogised the Marquis of. NN'ellesley, but maintained that, as a public man, he (Mr. Hutchinson) was bound to oppose his call for the renewal of the Insurrection Act. He was glad that the Act when passed would be committed to humane Magistrates, and to an enlightenett Lord Lieutenant, but this was not enough for him. Before he voted for this Bill he wished to see that more had been accomplished for the relief of Ireland than had hitherto been done. While the present fearful dis tress prevailed in Ireland, if the public money could afford relief it was the duty of Parliament not to suffer the people of Ireland to come to their bar as mendi cants, but to relieve them to the very last shilling. He denied that Ireland had profited as she ought to have done from her connection with England. The evils which had oppressed her were in fact such that it was time the Governitent should retrace its steps, and that a course the reverse of that which had hitherto been pursued should be taken. Transporta tion and death were not the means of correcting the evils which existed. These were not the expedients to which a good Government would have recourse; they only served to prove the absence of all • go. , vernment. He objected to the several provisions of the Insurrection Act, but one of the greatest objec tions which he had to it grew out of the insults to which females were exposed under it—(Hear, hear). He had seen soldiers an d ot h ers enter a hut where a whole family reposed in one room ; the women—die grown up daughters—the brothers, and the other members of she family. Thus circumstanced, respect for decency was still preserved ; but when the sol. diers with a Magistrate had entered one of these cabins of misery, he himself had seen the females who were its inmates, obliged to quit it, in a state of perfect tim.lity, that their beds might be searched. The In. . sunection Act could not be carried into effe c t w i t h. out producing such scener. He did not wish to with , hold from Government the powers which they had a right to claim ; but what he declared before such a law as that now called for was passed, was this such an inquiry should take place as would (he was convinced such would be the case) make every man in Ireland loyal. He was grateful for th e manner in which the distress of Ireland had be en taken up in England, and especially for the manne r in which English Members had exerted themselves. What he desired was, that an inquiry into the state of Ireland should take place—that a Commission of English Gentlemen should take the subject in hand. They conid not be better employed, and the res u l t would be some measure which would confer int. portant benefits on Ireland: He did not undervalue the dangers to which the loyal were exposeJ. H e could not view' the disturbances which had take n place without horror, and was anxious that every means should be used to put them down. B u t lie contended the duty of the Government did not end there. They .ought to take other measures, and en-• deavour to get at the root of the evil. This Bill go t the Lord Lieutenant a power which he ought not to possess.. The other measures which the Session had (Produced were inefficient. The Tithes Leasing Bill lie.thought - a very useless measure. He considered it objectionable in many respects. But he, notwith standing, took it such as it was, a boon, and thanked Ministers; for in this he recognized a disposition cn the part of Ministers to do something to relieve the distress of Ireland. He hoped it would be ti:llowea up by a measure for commuting the tithes. He felt that he should not have done his duty..had he not de. precated the passing of the Bill before the House, be. fore an inquiry had been instituted into the state of Ireland, with the view of getting at the root of the evil, and sifting the grievances complained of to the bottom, in order to guard against their recurrence 4 some future period. Mr. MONCK thought the present Bill might be necessary to check the evil complained of, but he re gretted that it would not strike at the root. The cause of the evil he believed to be the redundant popula tion, which exceeded that of any other part of the world. While the people of Ireland were contented with potatoes, instead of being corn-fed, like every other people of Europe, he feared the calamities nov experienced would be of frequent recurrence. He was sorry that Irish landlords were not more in the habit of living on their estates than they had been of late years. An evil like that now felt in Irelan would be prevented in this country by the humane inter ference of the laws. It was hard on this country tha:, besides maintaining its own poor, it should he called on to relieve the suffering population of Irelai-td. But saying this, he was far from wishing that this cour.• try should abate its exertions to assist the Irish, where a calamity df such magnitude was to be met. The 'lrish Gentlemen were of opinion, that in England the subject was not understood. He had read a letter two days ago, which said, " Give us the Insui ection 'Act for the rich, and potatoes for the poor, and we have. all we desire." He, however, did not wish the poor to have potatoes, he wished them to have corn— to be fed on bread. He would not say that the Pocr Laws ought to be introduced into Ireland, as at that moment he feared their operation would reduce these who were now considered rich to the level of the porr, Colonel TRENCH coincided in the view whit:: the Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken took of the causes of the distress which now prevailed in Ireland, but he thought that this Bill ought to pass as a mea sure of necessity; and not only as a measure of ne cessity, but as one of mercy. The evils which fficted Ireland were of two kinds—the one was ca F .!- hle of being diminished by legislative influence—the other was not. Among the former he considered the state of the Magistracy—the tithes—and the want of education among the poor. The other was the ab sentees (the number of whom would be increased by any effort to diminish them), the high rents, and :he manner in which the poor were neglected by those who ought to protect and inform them. He bore testimony to the natural excellence of the Irish ch-- racter, and the meritorious exertions of the Hibernila Society to diffuse the blessings of Christian know ledge, and the light of education, which were amon3 the most important means of ameliorating the cond:- tion of Ireland. One of the most crying evils had scarcely been alluded to, though the remedy w.t; is the hinds of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. T: le evil was the Excise Laws, and the remedy would to found by licensing small stills. By such a the Revenue would not suffer, as in that case the ac:i•te young men, who now formed an army hostile to th= law and the government, would be on its side. who paid for a small still would be active to sec that others did not profit by illicit distillation. f proved of the Bill, and was convinced that, i 2 the hands of the present Government, there was no danger of its powers being misapplied. Mr. WILBERFORCE spoke in favour ot; reading the Bill a third time. He deplored the present tress of Ireland, and declared it was impossible to any man to wish that distress removed more anion,,' than lie did, but the powers of the Insurrection Act appeared necessary to him to prevent the dowt:!ill of government and law altogether. Mr. It. 'MARTIN concurred in the eulogium w: • the Hon. Member for Cork had pronounced en t':J character of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, 1 , :*: complained of the objections urged against all Ow measures which had been brought forward for tl:c relief of Ireland. He particularly regretted ti!- . amendments (if it were not a blunder to call them s ,•l which had been made in the Irish Constable; !Nil IF had originally been proposed in it to give power to appoint a salaried Magistrate, on any extracid • nary emergency. This would, in his opinion, h." been advantageous, as he was sorry to 4.:OldeiS th.a, as the Magistracy of Ireland was at present 4-.01%56.- toted, a poor man would probably not obtain jug" with the same promptness as a rich man would. It was then important that a Magistrate should b . : ai'' pointed, who would fill a more neutral situati.v.— He would ask any Irish Magistrate (being like !nal' self, a County Member) if it would' nut be a gre-i t , relief to him to be able to say to those who pie their affairs on his consideration, " I hare not time to attend to your cause myself ; but there is a Gen' tleman—go to him, and you will obtain prompt j":", tice at his hands?" The salaried Magistrate WOll be the blagistrate far the poor man in Ireland. He • BILL. presented Petitions fm . m the Vie- tuallets of almost eveOrtown tes Essex against the Beer Bill. He begged lease to say that he was de- , cidedly favourable to tberptiuciple of the Bill, and! should certainly vote for sending it to a Conwitiuee. Mr. BROVtiIIAM assured the House that he had no doubt of these petitioners expressing the sincere' re2l netitioners. Who were the I T li IP