Star. — London, England, 1821-04-19 00:00:00

Nk PAAI7tAImENI4irY PROCEEDINGS. • . - . 144 \ ' HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 11. • • °u ' wl weresheara on the Miller Divorce Case, and further proceedings were postponed till after the Holidays. The Charitable Lands Transfer Bill went through a Commit tee proforma, and was ordered to be printed. The St. Luke's Parish Rate Bill, the Manchester Improve 'mem, and the Don Navigation Improvement Bills, were brought up from the Commons by Mr. Ilvma, Lord STANLEY, Mr. S. W • add others, and read a first time. The English and Irish Bank Cash Payments Bills went re spectively through Committees, and the Reports were received. Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. lbettaanson presented the Report of the Commissioners appointed to superintend the building of New Churches. On the motion of Mr. Homes, a new Writ was ordered to be issued for the return of a Knight to serve in the present Par liament, in the room of the'l‘larquis of Londonderry, late Lord Castlereagh, Member for the Comity of Down, Ireland. Mr. CUR WEN presented Petitions from certain Clearers of the Soil, Inhabitants of Alback and Levengen, complaining at Agricultural Distress.—Ordered to be printed. , Mr. D. GILBERT brought up the Report of the Committee on the Metropolitan Road Bill. Mr. CUR WEN hoped the printing of this Bill would not be postponed to so late a period of the S.:ssion as sv.is intended. Ho thought it would be in compliance with the wish of the House not to press this Bill through any more of its stages this Session. It might be printed and brought forward early in the ensuing Session. Mr. D. GILBERT was not inclined to delay the Bill beyond the present Session. It had been so amended in the Committee as tu meet with general approbation. Sir H. PARNELL said, he should always oppose the Bill. After some further observations from Mr. Houywooo and Mr. Comes, the Bill was ordered to be recommitted on the 9th of May next. Mr. HON YWOOD presented a Petition from cert. In Inha bitants of Blackheath, praying that the Queen might be rein stated in all her rights and privileges.—Laid on the table. A Message from the Lords announced their Lordships assent to.several public and private Bills. Mr. LEN NA RI) presented a Petition from certain inhabit ants of Avery, in Suffolk, praying for protection against the Im portation of Foreign Commodities.—Laid on the table. Mr. CHICHESTER presented a Petition from the Dealers In Hardware and Pottery in Belfast, in Ireland, against certain Duties affecting thelit trade, • and praying that the Bill enacting them might not pass into a law.—Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. The lion. Member then presented a Petition from the Owners and Occupiers of Land in the Hundred of Word, in the County of Essex, complaining of Distress, and praying for such relief as to the House should seem meet.—Laid on the table. Sir G. NOEL moved for an Account of all Sums expended In making the New Street, from the commencement down to the Seth of March, 1821, detailing the names of Pertains to whom the different Sums had been paid, and particularising the names of Commissioners, Clerks, &c. under the provisions of the New Street Aet. Mr. LUSIIINGTON suggested to the Hon. Baronet the ex pediency of his withdrawing the motion, in consequence of the absence of a ltight Hon. Friend (Mr. Huskisson). Sir G. NOEL said he had no objection to do so, but it would he with the understanding that he was at liberty to introduce the motion immediately after Easter.—Motion withdrawn. Mr. HA RBOR 1) moved for leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the laws relative to the Manufacture and Sale of Bread.—Leave granted. STEAM ENGINES. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR. rose, pursuant to the motion of which he had given notice, to call the attention of the House to the injurious effects produced by the smoke issuing from the furnaces of steam-engines.— The Hon. Member then cited, as an instance of the fact, the case of a schoolmaster, who had betn ne cessitated to remove from the premises he occupied, in consequence of the injury which the health of his pupils sustained from a steam-engine in his neigh bourhood. He next adverted to some former mea sures which he had proposed for abating the nuisance in question, and suggested the necessity of reducing the smoke. He then detailed certain circumstances to shew the nuisance created by the steam-engines used in the Lambeth Water- wen ks, which, however, was now (from a complaint made to the proprietors by himself and the Earl of Liverpool) considerably abated, from the introduction of a smokt-consumer into the engine. The same cure might be generally applied both in town and country, where such nui sances existed, and were endured only because many could not afford to carry on a prosecution against their owners.—What he (Mi. Taylor) proposed was, to give full power to the Magistrates at Quarter Ses sions to encourage prosecutions, by exonerating the prosecutors from all liability to expense. He wished that the Magistrates should take the subject into their own hands entirely. The Hon. Member con cluded some further observations by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to give greater facility in the prose cution and abatement of nuisances arising from fur naces in Steam-engines. . Mr. TREMAYNE spoke in favour of the principle of the Bill to a certain extent, but he thought it might be carried too far with respect to mines. Mr. D. GILBERT said a few words to the same effect, and observed that it would be desirable to re duce the smoke in small towns. Sir M. W. RIDLEY supported the motion. There were so many ingenious inventions for the suppres sion of the evil, that no excuse, he thought, existed for the proprietors of steam-engines not putting it into practice. Mr. GRENFELL concurred in the utility of the proposed measure, but at the same time he hoped due consideration would be given to the hint thrown out relative to the application of this Bill to large steam-engines, for particular purposes, and in parti cular spots. Mr. S. WORTLEY did not see why the remedy should not be applied to steam-engines in the coun try, distant from town, as well as in other places.— /lon. Menibers who did not live in the country did not know the inconvenience resulting from the esta blishment of steam-engines near their residences. Mr. CU RW EN thought great benefit might accrue from the Bill, but care ought to be taken in fixing the extent of its operation. Mr. Alderman WOOD assured the Hon. Member that if he persisted in making his Bill apply to all steam-engines, of whatever construction or purpose, or wheresoever situated, he would be in great danger of losing it altogether. He would bring the whole 4`2 Members for Cornwall on his back, and they were not without power in that House; for in that county were established a vast number of *powerful steam engines fur working the mines, not of eight or ten horse-power, like those in town, but of two or three, hundred horse-power ; and, if these enginei to be stopped only for twelve hours, until an experi ment should be made of the nature described by the lion. Member, the consequence would be, that water would get into the mine and ruin it. It was impos sible, therefore, that the Members for Cornwall would permit a Bill to go through that House which would tutu the whole county, and he did not think the -.• -,.,: _ - Hon. Member could make out a case to satisfy the House against them. Mr. M.A. TAYLOR said he had been completely misunderstood. It was thought that he proposed to introduce a new law, whereas he was only desiring to explain the old law. If he was obliged to confine the operation of the Bill to towns only, he would withdt aw it, as it would do harm rather than good. He did not know why he was to be deterred by 4.2 Members from Cornwall, and he was sure he could make out a case which would overcome the smoke of their great strength in that House! —( Laughter.)— The smoke of`steam-engines was a nuisance, and no persons ought to be annoyed with it in any situation, especially when a simple remedy could be applied. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The Order of the Day for the House resolving it self into a Committee of Supply was read. Mr. HUME said, there was no intention on his side of the House to oppose the estimates now, as an op portunity for doing so would offer on the bringing up the Report after the holidays. ' Several votes were then proposed and agreed to, including the half-pay allowances to retired Officers and others. Sir ROBERT WILSON called the attention of the Noble Lord opposite to an assertion which was con tained in a speech of the Lord President, at a Meet ing in Edinburgh. The speech was contained in a New spaper, which he held in his hand, and it re ported the Lerd President to have said, that it was not in the Police of Edinburgh alone, but also in the Navy and Army, that the custom prevailed of sign ing false half-pay hits. Now this assertion, with re spect to the Navy and Army, he was sure the Noble Lord would have no difficulty in contradicting. He then called the Noble Lord's notice to the declaration which was required of every Officer, who wished to exchange, and asked whether it was really necessary to be continued ? Lord PALMERSTON denied the existence of any such custom in the Army or Navy, as that of sign ing false half-pay lists. As to the declaration, he thought no more effectual mode of preventing abuses in making exchanges could be devised. Mr. HUME said, that with respect to false half pay lists, the report arose from the fact of a Captain Browne, at the head of the Edinburgh Police, having signed false musters of the men under his care. The inhabitants wished he should be removed, but the Lord President defended the custom, and justified it by saying that a custom prevailed, both in the Army and Navy, of signing false half-pay lists. lie was sure the public disavowal of the Noble Lord would have a very salutary effect. Sir G. CLERK was certain the report in the News paper of the Lord President's speech was incorrect. After a few words from Sir E. HARVEY, Lord PALMERSTON, and Sir ROBERT WILSON, Sir M. W. FIIDLEY asked under whose direction the widows' pensions were distributed ? Lord PALMERSTON said they were chiefly dis tributed, according to regulation, through his office, which had no discretion, except that of advising the Crown to withhold pensions on special grounds. Mr. HUME explained further with respect to Cap tain Browne. The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND trusted that the Committee would not presume guilt in either of the parties, until they had further information. Mr. H. . BENNETT said, that this was only a part of the old Scotch system which perpetuated every abuse. A vote for £lOl,OOO for widows' pensions was then agreed to; as was also votes for £20,000 to Offi cers widows on the Irish Establishment; £153,000 to defray the charge of Corps ordered to be dis banded in England, and a sum for a similar charge in Ireland. Mr. WARD moved a vote of £157,000 for the Ordnance charges.—Agreed to. The House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow, and it was ordered that the House should again resolve itself into the said Com mittee on Monday sennight. ' REFORM IN PARLIAMENT. Mr. LAMBTON moved the Order of the Day for resuming the adjourned debate on his motion for going into a Committee to consider the state of the Representation. Mr. WYVILL shortly supported the motion for going into a Committee. He considered that the House would do great public good by acceding to it. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW opposed the motion. He referred to a Paper which was circulated in 1793, signed by several Peers and Commoners, which stated, that a very considerable number of Members of this House were returned by a certain number of Peers. He had taken some pains to ascertain the truth of that statement, and he found it to be a tissue of mis takes. He protested, that wherever an actual griev ance could be shewn, he would give his aid to re move it, but he cook' not consent to deprive any man of his franchise on mere theoretical argument. Mr. SYKES expressed his determination to vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend. He contended, in the words of Mr. Burke, that the Representation of the country should be the express image of the feelings of the country. It appeared, indeed, that the lfonourable Member for Yorkshire was of a dif ferent opinion ; he thought that the Representation of the Country should be the express image of the feel ings of the Ministry—(llear, hear).— That, unhap pily, was the present state of the Representation, as their constant opposition to the Petitions of the People too clearly manifested. To that state of the Repre sentation he objected ; it was that he wished to see undergo a complete change. He did not agree ex actly in the plan contemplated by his Hon. Friend, but, at the same time, he was anxious to go into the Committee, to see how far it could be adopted. He thought the plan particularly defective, in confining the elective franchise to leaseholders, copyholders, and householders. This plan excluded a large class of artisans, who were not represented. He did not think it necessary to trespass long on the House, after the very able manner in which this question had been already discussed. He had been too long a disciple of the school of Fox, Sir G. Saville, and the late Lord Chatham, not to be a strong Reformer. He verily believed that this question was every day making greater progress, and he was much more *Ming to deal with it now, than to oppose it when it would assume ,hervafter a character of violence. 1 , Mr. DENETT (Wilts) said, there were many parts. 1 . . of the proposed plan of Reform to which he could not accede. But he could not conceive, at the same time, how any man who, like himself, was anxious for the purity of Parliament, could refuse to go into the Committee. It had been said, that it was neces sary for the Ministers of the Crown to have a certain influence in this House to support them through any measures they, should ptopose; but he did not think it necessary that Ministers should give up their places if they happened to be left in a minority on any ques tion. This House-ought to exercise a strong contronl over Ministers, as it did in some measure over the Crown and the other House of Parliament. It was notorious, that at present corruption prevailed to a very great extent. Seats were openly sold ; diffe rences of prices were fixed for Boroughs, according to the freedom of voting which was allowed to them. It was well known, that those Boroughs which had the initials D. It. Y. annexed to them were sold at half price—(Laughter).—When .he saw such corrup tion as this openly acknowledged, he could not feel himselfustified in refusing to accede to this motion (Hear, hear!) Captain MABERLY said ,he could not support this motion, as he would thus in some measure coun tenance a plan of Reform which he could not ap prove; at the same time, he had no difficulty in de claring that he was a Reformer to a certain extent. He would give his support' to any moderate plan of Reform which was founded on constitutional and practical principles. Sixty-eight Boroughs were now disfranchised, which had formerly returned Members to Parliament. He thought that the most populous of these Boroughs might be usefully restored to their former franchise. With respect to this plan of the Honourable Member for Durham, he conceived that it would give too much power to the People. It would makethis House too exactly the Representa tive of the People; and, instead of their following their own deliberate sentiments, they would be in fluenced and determined by every ferment of the public mind, a result which, he conceived, no reason able man in this House would wish to see. Mr. RANISDEN felt anxious to express his con victien of the necessity of amendment in the state of the Representation. This opinion was confirmed, when he considered the proceedings which occupied the House during the last Session. He was of opi nion that the system of Reform proposed to be acted upon by the Bill of his Noble Friend (Lord John Russell) would be in every respect the most eligible; and as far as the plans of his Honourable Friend pro posed to carry this system into effect, he would sup port it. He would also give his assent to that part of the plan which proposed to shorten the duration of Parliaments; but he was not prepared to go with his Honourable Friend to the extent of dividing the country into bodies, like the French electors. Mr. HARBORI) conceived that the demand of Reform on the part of the People was just and fair ; and he was of opinion that so strong was the neces sity of this Reform, that if the House would not be reformed within, it certainly would be reformed from without. He declared be would not give his support to any Administration that would not make the prin , ciple of Reform a substantial and leading part of their policy. . Mr. RICARDO said, that conceiving the question of Reform to be far the most important that was un der the attention of the House for some time, he felt it necessary to say a few words. on the subject. He most cordially agreed in the plan of his Honourable Friend, the Member for Durham ; he merely had to regret that it contained no provision for regulating the manner of election. Had the plan embraced a regulation giving to the Electors the right of voting by ballot, it would have been still more acceptable. Mr. DENIS BROWN opposed the Motion, as he always understood Reform to mean nothing but un constitutional alteration. Sir G. ROBINSON supported the Motion, request ing that the House would not consider him as pledged to support the particular plan proposed. Mr. T. WILSON declared himself to be no Re former, but at the same time he would not shut his eyes to any case of corruption that might be proved to the satisfaction of the House. He did not hold that he was there to represent, or consult exclusively, any particular interests, but to co-operate for the general good of the country. Neither were they there to at tend merely to the wishes of the People, because, for instance, if they were, it was impossible that they could vote for a continuance of the Taxes. He did not think that any good could result frinn taking the state of the Representation into consideration. He should therefore vote against the Motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt himself relieved from stating his objections to the plan of the Hon. Member, because there was not one Member who gave his assent to the ►Motion, that did not declare his disapprobation of that plin. Objec tionable, however, as the plan was, he would rather see it embodied in a Bill, and brought under the at tention of the House in that shape, than agree to any vague Motion for a review of the state of the Repre sentation, which would be to condemn the existing order of things, without proposing any remedy. He denied that the People in general expressed or felt any desire for Reform. It was true there were Peti tions on the table that referred to the subject, but these Petitions almost uniformly stated some particu lar grievance which they laboured under, and which they seemed to think might be removed by Parlia mentary Reform. Wherever the notion of the efficacy of Reform prevailed, it arose partly from fancied dis tress, and partly from a desire of innovation. He also denied that the House of Commons, as at present constituted, did not represent the sense of the People. There was scarcely any instance in which the People had reiterated a decided and deliberate opinion, that Parliament did not ultimately feel it necessary to adopt that opinion —and of this assertion the history of the abolition of the Slave Trade was a strong in stance. He considered Parliament the great regula tor of opinions; and the Press, which mixed up with much sound argument a good deal of misrepresenta tion and falsehood, was corrected by it. In short, the great publicity of the proceedings of that House ; the comments of the Press upon the conduct of its Members—and the facilities now existing for the ge neral expression of popular feeling, raised a counter acting cause so powerful, that lio thinking man could be at all alarmed for the liberties of the People on account of the influence of the Crown. Being of opinion, that nowhere was a greater share of practi cal freedom than under the yr escut conatitution of \ `l4 -al.__ the . H ouse ... of Commons, he ions d es i rous of Riving stability to that system as the surest safe-guard under whose protection they could transmit that freedom to their posterity. He considered the Motion to he to tally unnecessary, and that noth ing b ut agitation could result from entering into the consideration of a plan, which all who spoke even in favour of the prin. ciple of Reform, joined in discountenancing. H e begged pardon, there was one Honourable Gentle. man (Mr. Ricardo) who approved of the plan. That Gentleman had been called a theorist ; but of all his theories, surely his theory about Reform was the most fantastical.- g , Question r was now reiterated from all parts of the House. While the Gallery was clearing for a division, Mr. CANNING rose and said, in the absence of the principal Members on both sides, who were in the habit of taking a part in the discussions of that House, and in the absence of the Honourable Move r himself, he felt it his duty to abstain from making l any observations, or interfering with th e genera l wish, which seemed to go at once to a division. The House then divided, at a few minutes before eight o'clock, and the numbers were-- Ayes Nuci Majority against Mr. Latnbton's Motion --.12 The House then proceeded to dispose of the other Orders of the Day. _ A short conversation ensued on the Spoiled Stamps Duties Bill, which ended in the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER postponing the receiving of a Report on that Bill to Monday se nnight. On the Motion for the second reading of the Scotch Hereditary Revenue Bill, Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON rose to mak e a few observations. Whilst the Noble Lord was on his legs( Mr. LAMBTON rose and said, he wished to spe a k to order. He had to state, that on coming into the House a little before, he perceived that some Honour. able Gentlemen directed their eyes towards him, laughing significantly at the same moment, and, as he had no doubt, with reference to the fate of his Motion. He wanted to know, distinctly, who these Gentlemen were, and he would wait in the expects, tion that they would have the manliness to avow themselves! ( Hear, and Order ! ) The e PEA KER said, he would appeal to the good sense of the Honourable Member himself, if this was a question which he ought to put ?—(Hear, Lear)._ He took it for granted, that the House was ready to act upon the conviction, that its digr.ity and decorum were always best consulted by taking care that none of its Members should receive offence. From the manner in which the Honourable Member introduced the subject to the notice of the House, he seemed to be doubtful of the existence of the cause of complaint to which he alluded ; and it would be admitted by him, at once, that he should not proceed with a charge of this nature, unless he was capable of fixing it, and proving it satisfactorily. Mr. LAMBTON rose to explain. He begged to state, that shortly before the unexpected division, be had gone out to take some little refreshment, which he had not been able to do for the whole of last night. On returning to the House, he was met by his Hoe. Friend near - him (Mr. Whitbread), who informed him of the event ; and on entering the House, he saw the countenances of some of the Hon. Gentlemen di rected towards him, as if they meant to impute to him neglect that the House had come so suddenly to a division. He wished to allude more particularly to the Hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Huskisso4 and the Hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Bash son)—(Cries of Chair ! and Order).—ln moving that, the House do now adjourn—(Chair, Chair, Chair.) The SPEAKER begged to remind the Honourable Member, that he had risen to order, whilst another was on his legs, and that he was not, therefore, com- petent to move an adjournment. He would put it to the Hon. Member again, who h was sure was 5 interested for the maintenance of the dignity and de corum of the House, as any Honourable Member ii it—he would put it to him, whether or not he iota gined that any advantage could he expected, or that the dignity and respectability of the House would be increased, or, he would rather say, preserved, by carrying this conversation any further? And if the House agreed in opinion with him that it ought me to proceed farther, he expected that they would sop. port him in carrying that opinion into effect (Cheat). Mr. LAMBTON said, he would readily bow to the decision of the Chair. He v.ould only add, the he deeply lamented the unfortunate event which had taken place, for he believed in his conscience that it was a most unfortunate issue, because the impressioa might go forth, that the question was got rid of by a surprize, and that the House was unwilling togive it that attention which, in public opinion, it deserved. Mr. HUSKISSON would claim the indulgence d the House whilst he made a few observations, baling been publicly alluded to by the Hon. Member. k was true, there was an expression of the nature de scribed by the lion. Member upon his countenance, but he declared that it had no reference to the Had Member, but was connected solely with the auto' of a conversation between him and the Hon. Maier for Lincoln. He declared upon his honour that dii was the fact. He begged to state, that he did know the Hon. Member to have been absent daring the division ; and further, he rather regretted to abruptness of the decision, as he was desirous dig many who wished to express their sentiments OM this question should have an opportunity of dotal I ' Mr. G. DAWSON di sc l a i m ed all interell' i giving offence to the Hon. Member for Durham Se ~ assured that Hon. Member, that the smile All' construed into an expression of contempt, hadria_Le nection with the division which had just taken r 7„, in that I louse. In fiet, he (Mr. Dawson) did re e stow a thought upon the subject after it was, as hi _ supposed, set to rest for the time. He wondered , lir deed, the Hon. Member should feel so much cat; cern at the manner in which his motion was MO of, in which there was nothing at all extraordinal Mr. S. WHITBREAD did not rise to take thew nourable Member for Durharti under his protteet He thought it unfair, however, that other men shr. measure Isis feelings, on this occasion, by what themselves might feel. His Hon. Friend must IP", felt considerable disappointment at the result o f be motion ; but no blame was attributable to him that result—(Hear, hear).—His Hon. Friend re ferently situated from other Members. He bin (Mr. Whitbread) deplored the event which r •-•••••...- • • • , ; a..~, -. - -= "~`«. , • .`"" K VI • k 7 ‘‘" ..~,,,