Star. — London, England, 1810-05-08 00:00:00

I and he hoped the mere would then take thol • r into consideration, and come to an immediate • . c . sion on it. hire poNSONSY said, that as the Right Honou. Gentleman had confessed he had not made up 14 , 'w ind, and seeme d so very desirous of having the "'"; ; r f a Committee for the information of him cpnon the House, he submitted to their considera tsi'loinandetlier it would not be better to adjourn the de- L a zo on the s ubiectthan to move for a Committee. that as to what had fallen from gr. RYDER. said, Honourable Gentleman opposite ( Mr.Whitbread) • cso ing the negligence of his Right Hon. Friend, i ; e ' r ' o c il t sicie wh re ich d it merely as that kind of farrago of he never failed to pour forth on those velettcosseureopinions were different from his own, and he should there fore no further notice it. With respect w what had been said by the Right Hon. Gentleman w ho spoke last, his answer was, that his Right Hon. Friend did not mean to move for a Committee to g i v e an opinion to the House, but to inquire seriously an d attentively into a case which was certainly new i n Parliamentary proceedings. 11 r . W. WYNNE felt great objection that the H ous e, in a matter of privilege, should delegate its „ wet s to a Committee, unless it were a Committee powers p r i v ileges. ik.TIERNEY said, he should make no objec tion to a Committee to search for precedents, nor did b e wonder that the Minister, after all his negligence, should wish for it. He had before the holidays felt himself so vigorous, that he had by rashness drawn the fimbe hao all the difficulties of their present situ atie,n ; and then, after three weeks negligence—just gs t he Term is going to open—he comes to the, House to propose a Committee, under which he nii4la cover his rashness, and escape from the diffi culties into which he had drawn the House as well as himself. He had no objection to a Committee to search for precedents, but he would strenuously con tend against their reporting their opinion ; for they might say, you ought to plead, and the House might determine otherwise, by which the House must either be bound by the Committee, or openly disavow their act. He moved as an Amendment, That the words " to report their opinion thereon to the Helm" be left out. Mr. DUNDAS denied that his Right Honour able Friend had acted either with rashness or negli gence. Sir A. PIGOT said, he was sorry, indeed to see tile situation into which this House had been drawn. tray now three weeks since the Speaker had receiv ed a notice from a Member of the House, that he in tended to bring an action against him, for an act done in obedience to an order of the House. He was not going to blame the committal to the Tower, nor any of the proceedings relating to it, but merely to the point then under ccnsideration. The notice had been ordered to be entered on the Journals. It happened there was some mistake in the description of the pa lish in which Sir Francis Burdett's house stood, and a second notice had been served to cure this error.-- This corrected notice had been communicated to the ILuse on the 17th of last month ; we were now come to the 7th day of May, and the House was now first called on to consider what was to be done in conse ettence of it. " What," said he, "is the nature of the proceeding ? A Member of the House, commit tad by the House to the Tower, gives notice to the Sprier that he would bring an action in consequence cf the proceedings on the warrant issued by the speaker on the order of the House." This, he said, Was an entire new proceeding. In no case, in the been hea r d Parliamentaryorst o Such a monstrous times, m onhsatdss and ucha disgracefulthingever novelty had never been witnessed. Yet this very ex traordinary novelty, which was so distinguished an ,opposition to the Privileges of the House of Com mons, and a disgrace to the times—this transaction, to new and so important, is suffered by Ministers to tee, with only being entered on the Journals, and veiling farther had been thought of. Was there no flog necessary to be considered in this imftertinent ;per called a Notice, respecting the danger to which hendecl, and the inconveniency to be produced by it? Was nothing necessary to be done by those who advised the measure (not improperly he would al low) but merely to enter it on the Journals. He for one would support the measure ; and he considered he was only discharging the duty he owed to the House and to the Country, to say now as he had said iefcre, that the more he considered the question of the Privileges of that House, the more he was con vinced of their necessity, not only for the good and security of that House, but for the welfare and safety oldie whole People, who, he was sorry to see, were in danger of being led away by new doctrines of pri yile.ges, which,. if they did not give up in time, they would find would be productive of the most ruinous Consequences. Mote than a week had passed after receiving the notice, before the recess took place, yet tie Committee had been moved for, nor men tioned ; no steps seemed to have been thought of du ring the time of the recess; and now, on a sudden, the day one only before the Term, Ministers are all in abustle, and a hurry to know what was to be done. After a neglect of rear five weeks, they come down to the House, and on being reminded by the Speaker tiow near the Term was approaching, and how very ttecessary it was that something should be done by the House towards taking proper measures to defend their own order, they tell the Hcuse they have not :".ado up their mina on the subject, and wish for a •Committee to shelter themselves, and to surrender the Privileges of the House to their opinion. He could not but lament this incomprehensible negli gence. When they recommended the measures which had been adopted, did they not know that the Speaker could only act Ministerially? When the notices were served, did not they know that.they were given by a man who was not likely to shrink from his point? Why did they not before the recess recommend the mea sure they now do ? They had lost much time, and now the day bat one before the Term, what is it they do ? Ask for a Committee to search for precedents, and report their opinion. The latter part of the re solution was in his opinion' unconstitutional. Minis , ten, it seemed, had never considered what were 'the tights of the House, or what its remedies, at any pe- Tiod of the proceeding since the question originated. lie, for his own part, had never for a moment doubt ed that the House had the privilege, and never could Inn with it but when it surrendered its legislative, iluisitorial, and judicial functions. Some had said 441114:4110 had not arilbt to try if* a libtf.rthey AIM itat• it welt eel the Wile haa 40 Ogg_ to el dal thdrtettrAte el do WM. SO to -- brio* an action of Wier to.detinuos Itwei Otualy left kb Mk trecailluth OW tolrytierk, i t l e". l ..... trio case---but still, norwithstahemg all the daily don* from time to dile PP di! =Om __ ''‘ l ''''• trash which had been published , , the was no doubt theimunPe he bad Mimed. no had , Mora , if - "lik they had a right to punish those who libelled them in throw had allowed him to tow to the nonshilittons their leg islative capacity. This power of htnent the! *odd have sin that tudathnity was. hie abject. they o nly possessed by commitment. could He was now Undoubtedly far limiting the CAnneugeo not bring an indictment—there was no person in with full power to report, and on dick ("Won' the *hose name it could be drawn up. They would also House might decide. . be. obliged .to supplicate the Crown, and, there was Mr. PONSONBY root, with considerable anima. no knowing whether the Crown would be always wile tion, and mid, that the Right Hsu. Gentleman seem. ling to grant their supplications. There was no ed to him to have lost his temper. The canoe of that knowing whether, as in the times of Charles IL the '‘, loss of temper was obviously that be could not and Crown might not choose to join such instig a t om of 1 any Honourable Member to insuset him what course anarchy as were now at work to undermine t& House i to pursue. The Right Hon. Gentleman was ignorant of Commons. Yet such was the situation is which 1 what course to adopt, and was mortified that his %g -the adherents of the new school wished to place th at I norms should be so !manifest to the House. What House 1 Ccraemptible pretenders ! Shall it be en- 1 right had that Right Hon. Gentleman to console duped that such men are to set up their opinions himself for this mortification by attacks on the Gee against the Legislative Assembly, and say '&lt its Omen on his side of the House ? (the oMothies).-- vote upon this day was more vile and corrupt than What right bad that Hon. Gentleman to espeet that on the day preceding ? Better have no House of he (Mr. Ponsonb_y) should give hint any advice on Commons at all than have it so degraded. If a this occasion ? He had given that Right Hon. Gen doubt was to be cast even upon the existence of tleman and the House ahmdy all the advice that he their privileges, their functions were gone for ever ; , could suggest relative to the pixtenedingrwhich led not only their legislative but their inquisitorial and ju- to the present circumstances, and it bad been dicial functions, for such he contended they had. If When the rejection of that advice bad involved these they retained not the power of commitment, what 1 in a difficulty they knew not bow to obviate, it was power ought th. vto retain ? All inferior Courts pose i i not for them to apply to him and his friends to eztri sessed this power, and he had very great doubts who. ! cote him from it. 13y blindly persevering in their ther that power ought not to be exercised against even ' own coarse, they bad brought about the present em. the inferior agents who gave notice of an action barrassment. k was inculcated from the bight" against that House. It was very certain that if a 1 authority, 64 that when the blind lead the Mind, both person had been committed in the Court of Chancery I must fall into the ditch." If the Right Honourable for a contempt, and that an attorney presented a no- Gentlemen opposite, therefore, fond themselves in tice to the Chancellor that be would bring an action; volved in a difficulty, themselves alone they bad to against him for such an act, the attorney would be in ' blame. Upon whom but themselves mold they Ater the care of a tipstaff in a very short time. He should ' the commitment of Sir Francis Burdett, and the ma. vote for the Amendment. I nufacture of that paper which charged them with The SOLICITOR GENERAL, insignificant a 1 having usurped the power to imprison the King's person as he was in the House, gave his sanction to 1 subjects? In that wild production, as with all respect every opinion of the Learned Gentleman who had.' for Sir Francis Burdett he must call it, the power of just sat down . It had been most truly stated that the the'House to commit Was denied, and it might from House was indeed in a novel situation. It was, be that be inferred that the exercise of that power would believed, the first time in Parliamentary history, that have been resisted. The Right Hon. Gentleman bad a civil action was threatened against the Speaker of imputed to his Hon. Friend (Mr. Whitbread)) the the House of Commons. In such a novel case, the having said, that the right ought not to be enforced question was, ought they to do any thing, or ought bat where there was no resistance, and had then they to do nothing ? It was, in his opinion, high asked with the same triumph, whether that was to be time that something should be done, and he was for considered a proof of their magnanimity, of their con the appointment of a Committee with full powers simmer, of th2:r desire to maintain the dignity of the to act. House ? Now he could readily believe, that there Mr. WINDHAM agreed in every point with Sir was not less magna ni mity on his side of the Holm Arthur Pigott. He did not wish to give full and than amongst the Honourable Gentlemen on the op. final powers to the Committee, and would therefore posite side; and be united that that would appear vote for the Amendment. from the whole of their conduct relative to . this Imo- Sir THOMAS TURTON contended, that some ness. But the Right Honourable Gentleman, when definitive measure ought to have been proposed by pressing a right which he had reason to know would Ministers before now. Hi shuddered at the idea of be resisted, ought to have been prepared to show how the House being obliged to watch a law term, or not in such a case it could be executed. If the Gentle being able to comprehend its course of conduct rela- men on his. side bad recommeaded the commit-, tive to its insulted privileges, without having recourse ment, and become thereby the cause of the wine- to a select body. He was determined to vote for the quent difficulties, would not the Right Honourable' Amendment. Gentleman have loudly called on him to point out Mr. ADAM merely rose for the purpose of en. how they should be remedied ? Would he not have forcing- unanimity on this occasion, when, as had auributed all to the workings of party spleen, and been fi nely said, they were to come to a vote on the captious hostility ? The Right Hon. esentlentan very existence of the Constitution. He hoped this had made a furious attack upon tuns, because be was would be generally felt, and that the new doctrines not disposed to give any opinion upon the subject till would be beaten down, and the Constitution triumph. the House should be brought into a situation when The Honourable Mover ought to be induced on such some declaration would be necessary. It was also a subject to forego private feeling, and accede to the added, that inconsequence of the confidence reposed Amendment. The Motion itself had not been the in him (to a greater extent than be merited) by his result of premeditation, but was adopted at the mo- friends round him, he was particularly bound fogies ment. The Speaker had concisely informed the an opinion upon , the subject. He might, perhaps, House of the subject. His words were on the instant be misled by vanity to give such an opinion, if his adopted in the Motion. Those words were thought judgment did not prevent him from giving it 'Tema. indefinite, and the term a opinions" was proposed. curdy. What ground bad he to opect. that if he Now he begged of the Right Honourable Gendeman were • to give it, the majority of the House would to consider, whether the adoption of this term was a agree to it I Could he bare any security that he consideration paramount to the wish for unanimity should not be outvoted ? Or that, upon his advice on this subject. He hoped he would consider this, being so rejected, he should not be twitted by the that the motitai was one not prepared, but resulting Right Honourable Gentleman with having , given it from oral dictation ; and one therefore for which be prematurely ? An opinion he most certainly had need not be so strenuous. This, in his mind, ought to upon the subject; but the Right Honourable Gen induce him to consent at once to leave out the term . demon was wrong if he supposed he could be taunted 0 opinions" as had been proposed. This would at- into a premature declaration of it. His Majesty's tain every desirable end, and produce celerity in their Ministers, if they did their duty, should be prepared proceedings, for the decision as to facts must be ins. to propose some measure to the House on the sub. mediate, but a long discussion might ensue as to jecc. Whilst supported by the majority, must 66 opinions." be taken to possess the coolidoce of tisa t t be Aouse ; The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was and if they had not that eatillece• they should n° I glad to hear it advanced at length, that chit was a continue in office. lleddits,Jibey were in Possess= subject upon which party feeling ought.to be discar- of all the facts, which the HOMO could not bet and ded.. No person was more anxious dian himself to consequently it was more particularly .incumbent promote unanimity, nor did he conceive any propos'. upon them to .offer advice totbe House on that oc tton better adapted to that end, than the one which he cation. If idsemined fr om offering such advice, t o h i I st had submitted. Very different feelings seemed to be the House mi; rest eliored. • that it was not from excited in the minds of an Hon. and Right Hon. Gen- my feeling Tindall, or modeinetion, but from a Pi tleman opposite. They had given the reins to part 7 tilts' pusillanimity which reannined themfrom taking violence, and arraigned him for faults, in which, if any responsibility upOn thermosives far the advice fahey were faults, they themselves participated. He they might give. He sboulstvote for the amendment was desired now to concede a little to unanimity, and of his Right Honourable Friend. adopt, for that desirable object, the Amendment. If Mr. WHITBREAD had an observation or two hedid do so, what would be e consequence ? No to make upon the answer given by the Right 114)13* doubt, some Gentlemen on the other side anxious for Gentleman to what had fallen fromitim in die course unanimity, would instantly arise and exclaim-0 Here of the debate. When be' had asked a question of is another instance of the weakness of the Ministry— that Right Honourable -Gentleman in the averse here is another proof of their miserable vacillation, the night respecting a letter flow before the world, and want even of common judgment and decision— and that Right Honourable Gentleman deaned to, they cannot even word a trifling motion of their own, answer, he took it for granted that the doeumentl but are obliged to adopt every whimsical suggestion was authentic. When he put a question to the Right from this side of the House." Judging from what Honourable Gutlesnan near him ,(Mr. Bectiory had passed already, this would be the immediate cry Ryder) and that Member declined to answer it, be of those advocates for unanimity—(Hear, hear.) He believed it was became the Right Hooourable Mem., lamented to see the question to en up in this spirit, as bur could not anew the question. But when the he had at least expected neutrality; but it furnished Right Honourable last addressed himself an opportunity of reviling, and that was an opportn. to answer what had from him in the debate, nity always too tempting to be omitted. It had fur- 1 be invented a speech for him, and in replying to that nished the most bitter and groundless attacks upon gave any thing but an answer to what be bad acts him, and he was accused of what even, if true, could ally said. He could not hdp admitiog.the manner not be called a fault.. He had given his opinion. and ;in which the Right Honourable Guademen had dies propoied his plan, on the emergency. What was the ' lashed himself into a fever at debelityke buffeting the .conduct of those who now attacked him ? Why , they I shadows of his own imagination. All* shoshisay, proposed no plan, but employed themselves in mere I however, was, that the seetinients imputed to him party, indefinite abuse. Even though a second op- by the Right Honourable Gendeman did not belong port Unity had been given them for the exercise cf their : to him, and the particelar expression he gamed, he enlightened minds, they were totally silent ; or, if bad never named. they did Speak atall, it was to declare that they would i Mr. C. W. WYNNE observed, that the precedent :leltve the House in its original darkness, and disdain ' referred to by the Right Honourable Gentleman had to give the least light upon the subject. The Gentle- ; taken place in the tine of all estres 3 dl weak anal men opposite had charged him with ignorance; really ooslesopsible Administration, which encountered a one would have supposed they were describing their Insistence that had never been expected by them. A own character. As it happened, however, he had, at.! Committee had. no doubt., been appointed in that distinctly followed a precedent. ; taw, and sat for 17 dais, without having made one f in was appointed "to consider' step of progress. When they had made a tercet, it 12797 was l s a P an tnibleitom one es Gail tlatrapplimittimmi that Mat . *Mali be totken-4, 140). • Illet how be eta bo maim 447 b not, pointed outs This, Ira! do t;mistier which r. Burke h;141 compered to the► _ mi(te th o ir of R i a c ts, sn a4p d oi n n r tei t ta inquire ITT wi wh g .. °I. Mortal, to put t bell about their neck, Hence was placed in a situation of great 4io .. suety, and be, therefore, wished Gentlemen to cant- der whether it would be desirable to establish this proceeding as a precedent to guide their future prat-, tice t He was of opinion, that it was much bouts' in hare ell the facts before ;hem I,TeViOttli in a &title:). They were all aware, thit iu the fast of Rice, Lea Kenyon bad declared, diet is a common cause, the, Court.of King'i Bench *mild set pay any' attention to an injunction from the limas ( ' Ot C,ioomoos.. It would be desirable to know whilicr the same prin.. cipis would be emended to other ewes, before they earns to any determination upon thi4 important sub, int. A Milne dire toot pbco epos tin Aot ttelotrut—Tor tt, 51, Atitoot It, 111, Anotbor Whist took plus spire die *Wm Qtwotios—f or Ili. AO" it, On the n440;1401, of strangers, the driAltelt was putting the question upon theca of name. of wilielt the Committee was to be composed, amongst wbit- 1 1 were morel Members of the Opposition. Mr. TISUICY *feted to piooks the Men of Gentlemen woe a Couensimeo siquirod to repot *pi aims upon the mutes referred to them, when it was known that they had voted whim rolortiso li piniellO, The CHANCELLOX. of the MICH VEXre , plied, that it would be perfectly epee to Gen , demen to state their !wrestles. epos that . or any other subject is the Committee, notwithstesdiog say vo:s they may have Owen. Mr. TIERI4EY aobeerved, that perhaps die Wet Hon. Gentleman wanted someddiss from the Ow. Won tide to pep his list. The CHANCZLLOR of the EXCHZ42II2I, hoped the ILl4t rie lionoureble Gentleman meld net wish him to it from that side of the Hone. Mr. MILT made a few alienations at she imprison of the .abject-os .abject which be had hoped would never have bean bee,* Item, dist Hair for dlematief.Under the comenestancee Is width she Spier lend Masai, be bad felt it hie bounden -to *now himself upon the HOMO far advice. Ms had mite( that advice, and be (Mr. Jekyll) prayed Goo toF that the advise Wiles theflows weld sire be tailMoy le** involved in a Mesons the mos t unfavourable itss sure. it was impossible Its Owns to retread their steps, and it became therefore more neciesery that they should be can with reopen to their anode of advance. The House, after two divi:ioos, bad de. tertnined on die a ' of a Cairn catch eider the facts, to report to the Howe their 00. nion. Thom who est an bus side of the klome wag adverse to any requitition to the Committee se food& an opinion ; bat yet the Right flonerrable Oentimems bad nominated several of those so adverts es Men,' hers of the Committee. Some who were proem bed declined taking a part in it but others who were ac cidently abfient remained upon the het. Hs thong! it would be but candour on die pert tithe Gentleman to omit the names to which he a r., No reply was mode, and the motion was speed to without a division. MIMS* TO Tlit an AMPS Or JAM. 14 Mr. Alderman COMM, in tides comae the ma. don of *Ws hs hsd given lodes en airport of Ilse constitotional nem of fdloie•cithmss. - fat indsfac. Lion that it woold not be oeseethey kr hies to trooble the House at any pest length. As the Home, of Commons was sow so assiondy mppdin swatting ;grown Vow be trusted. k mat sot he too mods to expect that Hamm 21F1N41,011/Mita to the rights of the Mum if Lesion. It .eggs not his invades to dwell upon the tight of the _jut to pedtbas, nee to descant upon the value of that which woe flee fosadation of we civil i kp.sght, and the _pins** bulwark of British Ilbsety. These wae ren. eider/dm that ameba familiar to orwy Gendemmt ad* band him. The right of pence fft the Sm. stigs ens surcieed in throe ways s how was, by tram. moss the Petition to the Becesteri of haw whi c h are the was not the samba dime that it would eves meet dicey* of fie MOW. The emit was, when patois having acme to his lbjesty st his levees, pot their petitions isto his owe buds but the third and mom voluble mode wee, that d patenting a Petition to his Majesty ern the Timis, in which cam an answer was always ressisred. The mode of patimm . in was ceased to the thiieersidee and the City of Landon. By the Coastiastim the City of 'Lead" it was diarided into few bombes. The tint was the Coon of Alisswies. beg on diggear cavity he esvld am find as Joshes of any redden of that Cant w hii • —The nest was the Court of Caws. which enjoyed the privilege of groan Ling its dons to the Sysereagn upon the Thaw AOW TM the Court of Loewe:wag s but be &d aft hi any instance since the year 1774 when Lea Mm. ford wrote to the Lord Moyer, that his /dajeseg would not waive any Addresses apes the Thom but from the City of Leadoa is ks ceeparste no parity, in which that Coon !napalmed n Palle& The fourth and most ceriprelsmeion broads was the Court of the Lord Mayor, Alamos, Osamoss Coro. cil, and Livery, in Common Hai amemided, tom shortly called do the Common-Hall" As needs do. moor bad existed for a long dale suspeethigthe dart made by the Liver/ of Logsdon to palm *sir Pad. tions to the King en the Themm,be dada brielypat the House in possession of the real state of that gess ties and for that parpow refer to die dimwit Ai dresses and Petisioni had best s by** Li very of London, in on stir. In the yew 1704 as Atidsws was veteriaris Majesty, bat as no panieakehrtamden it on that *conics, that Adieus to the King at his Lew. Is Is year 1 0, as Manes was roved,. and the Iberia was instructed to eta. quire when his Majesty would be pleased to maim it upon bib throne. The Shwa mode the *airy, hog not Ism* received anyanswer,motherCempasoarball came to a resolution that their addles should am be t=ed to the Kistbst arsbis throat. • Wks bias was acquitted with this Miran, be moat that he weld =wider of it t be &A consider of toy od therm& was, that be receiessi the abbess oral is throne. be 1771 amber address was wooed, an,/ masts emend into, that the Mayer used Ml*