Star. — London, England, 1817-05-10 00:00:00

o s surreptitiously obtained. and that 411 e person who s ired it did not understand English (Hear.) The b,o's therefore. had no weigstt. or sanction of autho. such as the author of it pretended he had ob. The Honourable Gentleman opposite, (Mr. tiaor) had said, we so misgoverned Ireland as torodoze nothing out discontent, and therefore we to let it continue as it is, or in other words to t ,,, u in our system of misgovernment still longer I These were differences and dissensions in oleo!, b u t thesolie conceived Lobe owing to us, and tw oere let us adjust them. Respecting securities, to void repeat, .the rioeal, of the exclusion laws , 44 1,1 carry the best security along *ith it—(Hear.) 60 as there were many persons whose judgment (z oo to be respected, who had not suffitient confi d.t„in this, he would tequire something nacre to pen their concurrence and carry the measure. This 1 ,, tid done before. and he should do so egoist.— ;„, tr Gentlemen who were for doing any thing at ol, , sould vote for going into a Committee 1t was . 01 4 t hose wh.. though: things might remain es they ar , l ow would object to oo so far. He had never ploeJ the question on the hais of abstract right 1 — i x would go caroller and say nor Church, which was t r ootant. and our State wen idtutical ; still the cote:ammo that had been made on the penal laws &ciao, the Catholics, s.odsl among the brightest wooreineets of the present Reign. No danger had wan, and no danger would arise from them. The ezieer he apprehended arose from internal feuds and retool dissentious, from a sense of unmerited Oriva no. o p g ia;ing opon an irritated population. Ewan. Coat'on would protriee .aa-grand moral effete on the great dais of his M ROMAIScathOIIC subjeirs, it would put *wend to disorders and irregularities, sad compose the jarring •elements of society in the iteghbouring kingdom.' He concluded with expect.. wag a hope that the House would agree to go into the Committee. • Mr. B. BA'I'HURST opposed the motion. He (Doddered it calculated, if agreed to, rather to en suaW the unhappy circumstances in the state of Ire land than to removv them, whilst at the same time it licit to attack the Constitution of the empire. He hid heard a great deal about securities, but no sub• rocurity had been offered far the Protestant Church. It even the securiti e s talked of were given, they would be insufficient. But even iosufficient as toy were, it would be impossible to obtain them. He wield impress the necessity of considering the danger el s radical change. of giving a new complexion to cur Constitution and Government, and departing from those principles which *ere acted upon at the period to which we • owe oar liberties. • Lord CAS rLEREAG I - 1 said, that in rising to adoess -the House upon the question before it, he telt considerable embarrassment. It was a question the Consideration of which lie approached with pain, differing as he did from some of his friends around• tim—differing conscientiously, as he was convinced they maintained opinions opposite to his, but still ac taate4 by an imperious 'sense of his public duty. It was not his detention to attempt any new arguments in support df the great principle upon Which this question moved; indeed, he hardly 'Saw how any new grounds could be offered in support of it: he should theiefore Online his. observations Within a *very nor• row compass, restricting himself almost exthuiively t 3 the consideration of the arguments Opt had been Amigo& ageimitolaso amiss. The Hawks wasappialed 1 to by an Honoutable Member—it was invoked to put an end at once to the painful repetition of thiS ques. Mai year' after year, uselessly exciting both parties. It did were the fact—if the only effect was irtita tion—if the Sta t e were *intoned in its constitation, its religious establishment,nnd its laws, then certainly it wuuTd be a blessing to pin an end to the agitation of the subject, and that Fedi/004e shotild take itt station in the place which it occupiiidietbat moment. Bet if, on the contrary, the dangers wereimaginary., and the advantages real; if this questionlung about the empire; embarrassing - iintl • deforming it, 'then 'certainly it was the duty of the Muse to consider the 'Timbre. with every alifficultY that attended it. He had beard many appeals to the authority of the piab- I lice Even to that inane he did not hesitate to commo de side which be sustained. Let the House cast its rye back to the .statesmen livings-aind to many ttiat are now no more, who marshalled in support of this question their in fluence, their talents, and their oh.- - tees. Way nor this a strong Team for going ,u* a Committee I He would recall to their minds she temper of the Houseen this subject, when the Bill was 'broeght in, an a former Session—the tone re v:dig it that seems to pervade the House of Lords o•the temper of the community. at large, and thelair dictates of enlightened reason—then to weigh the dangers that bad been supposed to exist, and if they appeared inconsiderable or imaginary, to enter upon ; the subject unrestrained by the difficulti es which hun g eseel it, sod which tie had no doubt could be easiry removed. It was dangerous to keep up the agitation of any 'great question, but most peculiarly so when, as in this instance, religion was mixed up with it so as to infese into it a strong portion of bitterness and istoonsation--(lhar).—Thus far he agreed with his ' Bowen* Friends; but how was the question to he set at test r He never could agree with his Ho. maitable-Friend (Mr. Leslie roster), that the ques tion could be laid asleep on the principle of exclusion. .Re would not urge the example of other countries as *precedent for ours, governed as it was by its une- , ulled constitution; but he would mention the ptac• tire of other countries, to strew how they now felt with respect to the-Papal power. Whoever cast his eye over the actual state of Europe, would see that Rome had no longer the power to convuto which she formerly abused. We are now living is very different days. In the treaty of • Westphalia, religion formed keading.feature. In the late treaty for the estab lishment of the peace of Europe, religion never was the subject of discussion for a moment —( firer, hear.) Notwithstanding die balanced state of the Germanic Body between Prutestantond Catholic votes—still the equal liberty of religion was .adopted as the basis— though the same conflicts of interest respecting Sees and Church Patronage ingeneral existed there as so Ireland. He did not quote this as an examp le, bat 4) 14 in prove that now little fear was entertalweil of the Papal power. What but the folly of die Catholics themselves had prevented the wisdom of Porliomeut, and theliberality ot the Protestants, froro moor ing Mein !lime this day tb the full blessings of the constitotioa. f l oe complimented his Honsoirobk Friend (Mr. It.. t ester) upon the clearness ol his viows, but considered his ideas of ultramontane policy as wholly chimerical. Thit was no hanger the policy of be Court of Rome. The animosity arisina from religion, *Which poiSoned even society in Ireland, was in hip view an argument for, not against, the motion. The measure to view would give mild temper and idteroal repose;—gene.. ral security, tranquillity, and 'Strength of empire. 'This was his motive for suppottiag it. He teas eon.; fident, the narrow system of Law by which Ireland was governed could never be the basis of a perma nent mode of government. He would let in the Ca • tholic Peers and Catholic Gentlemen, and assoCiate the state as far as it could properly be done v:ith them and with their church, for the double purpose of giv. ing them power of 'telling truths with effect to the great betty of the Catholic people He believed there was not a strong repugnance in Ireland to the measure with securities. • But• even if it were so, he would pass the Bill, trusting to the 'fruitS it must ultimately produce. He was confident that at Rome there would. be no• obstacle to the securities required.— They had been given to other countries, and directly sanctioned rx Cathedra byMonseignor thiarantotti in a document of • the higliest authority, though inde cently criticised in Ireland. Of this there was what might be deemed a confornation by the Pope himself, in a document signed by Cardinal Litta. It was un fortunate that persons so respectable; and tolis know ledge, of tried loyalty, 414111c1 bend before popular folly, and disguise what they must know to be their faith—what they had declared to be such in 1799. If Parliament enacted and Rome sanctioned their-. rangement of securities, then he thought there would be no longer any difficulty. The measure would go up as freely in its operation as a Turnpike Bill. He .wished, however, that the Catholics should confide .in the State as in other countries; and until that confi dence appeared, he must observe, that he saw symp• coins of its not being yefthe time to grant their claims. He must deprecatedontesticatonaination, which would end in contest and cabal with all the abuses of demo cratic electioneering in clerical matters. It was most unfortunate that the word Pao got into use. A name does much in any Country. It could produce the most prodigious effects; cover ever with Tidicule. or reprobation what was in itself most proper , (Hear, hear.) He would, however, allow an inter val of time. Parliament should express its tone une quivocally, and then the Pope should be applied ta.— lie should support the..motibn upon the same prin ciple whichinduced hint to support the Union, viz. to take Ireland out of the operation of garrison prin. ciplea, and govern her. by the British Constitution. — He saw no danger of . a Popish Parliament now.l There WAS' much more probability that false Pro testants • should smith the prejudices of the Ca.i tholic electors, than that theraiatcif Lord Kenmore ' should tkf , no. Pie woitilkt.plACO ; Aitt Protest-art •and the Catholic side' figllti'•as is war, .the battle of the Constitution; - and death to know each other by their corntrion loyalty h o d zeal, (Hear, hear.) 'ibis was his opinion—his earnest appeal, to destroy the spirit of turbulence and.bigerry, and provide alike for our.national honour and repose, by iocurporating the Catholics with the Constitution. Mr. PEEL, even at the risk.'of being deemed pre. sumptuous, must oppose the arguments of his-Noble Friend; Wuat was to.. be done in this Committee ? 'What had• .been done in•the Committee 'of 1813 ? The result then was, a ferment among the Cathodes; and be saw area reason. far supposing that the same consequence would not follow. He would appeal to the opinion .u 1 the trelotes,theMselvea, who declared they coeld not agree with those securities without in curring the grievous sin of schism. But would the .fope content? ' There was every reason to think not. Cardinal Litta declared tO:Dr. Poynter that the Ae. Emegualfir cotil4 . not be .granted. The same person told a Mr. Hayes, who went on a mission to the Pope, that domestic nomination was -a thing hi 'did niot understand. He CMG . Peel) would with to know whether 'there was any person in the House' to 'state, on the part of the l'ope,. that he agreed to. .those securities—( Hear, hear, frost General Mathevv. , .. a bad hoesh).—He must observe that his Noble Friend would humiliate Parliament and the Catholics by making the proceedings of the former depend upon the' Pope, and perhaps dash the cop of hope from ~the lips of the 'tatter at the discretion of a foreign power. Much had been said about Hungary and Canada, and a Right Honourable Friend of his (Mr. Canning) talked last Session of the equality between Catholic and -Protestant in the Smith of France.-* The cases, it must be:acknowledged, were very diffe-, rent. The Catholics were the majority, and the fa voured sect in' the department of the Gironde. It i was different in Ireland. He deprecated a new sys. tern. The granting , the elective franchise proved nos 'thing, as it differed trout 'office, in the opinion of Mr. Burke, in the ode belonging to the 'subject, and the other to man, as a member of the State. The fran chise, too, was taken away by a simple penal law, whilst the other disabilities were imposed at the Re voltition. In Ireland' there were two rival establish menit—n Protestant Hierarchy and Roman Catholic Hierarchy.' Thelatter was co-extensive with the for mer, and exerciied vast share of influence. It was not surely necessary to say, in order to exclude them, that they were disloyal. He was far from insinuating any disbelief - of their allegiance to the King and the Constitution; but . he must sa y , that not only the Clergy, but the whole moss of the'People, if they were L.aincere Romai - Citholics, mustle naturally desirous to overturn the Established Religion—(Heer, hear.) It was an irresistible ambition kmong the majority to wish their Own . religion triumphant, and io.perion who recollected with what difficulty the Reformation advanced in Ireland, would say that this did not form an additional reason among the Catholics there to oppose iii further:progresi, and if.poisible drive '.it hark completely frnm the Island. It was said indeed that the packing measure would nut admit many Ca tholics into actual power, but thatle thought aho gather a- clumsy: security . If they were deetnett qualified, let th em Sitio Parlianient ; but if not, let thew be totally excluded. it the question arise whether a certain portion of the community ought to be admitted to a share Of power with the Protestants, the. first enquiry' to be niade..vrai, whether the inter tests of.the former. were in uoison with those of the latter 1 and, in the psesent instance, it could not be said that the intelits of - the Catlabliclend the Pro. c estanta Wati tfik mk.. *Mit their religion; Wertio. di a metrically u ppoiad...:the bill.whieh Was hrOtrgfda into Pailiametit in 181S,•-asiqaired of the Catholics an oath disclaiming certain opinions. Dot it it was suppeked that they had previously entertained those opinions at all, it was a sutF.e.ent reason fur their h.admistiblEty to the privileges of the Constitution.' He did not impute to the 'tom io Catholics those' joett ines which the oath called upon th-ni to disavow.; He did not wish to introduce any roses which 'might produce irritation ; but he ti,oitght it ev tremely inconsistent that they ad:ni!reti to political power, who were, in the first inst,net-, presumed to entertain opinions so much at variance with the interests of the realm—(ihar, bear). — The measure of 1813 was Aviv timer of an anoma lous description. It set out. with 411eArtaukstasinev of a disposition to remove from the trkinds of the C 2. tholic people every grievance ol..a,.migtitying nature. It would admit them to every office in the Suite, save that of King, Lord Chancellor, or Lord Lieu• tenant in Ireland • thus, while it professed to take away the weole i:f the chain which 'degraded and wounded their feelings. leaving behind three links to perpetuate their ignominy, aod . to increas_ their mor titicati‘ns. It may, perhaps, be argued, that as so much good resulted from establishing in Scotland the religion of the majority there, many benefits might also be expected from the measure now Formed for Inland.° But that argument went too tar, for it went to eanWish the Roman Catholic religion its Ireland, and that he believed the Legislature was not pi eperrd to do. '(hitae, hear, hear.) lie begged, therefore, of the House to pause before they would eunseni to any change in the Constitution, which it. was clear must be a radical one. If any doubt existed in any Hon. Member's mind. as to the cootie he ought to pursue, he (Mr. Peel) thought that the presumption was in favour of the Laws and th Constitution, as they now stood. He trusted that ev y Member, still undecided as to his opinions; would w.eioh the prac tical advantages already proved. against the visionary and theotetical plans which were proposed toe their adoption. (near.) . . General hIATIftV said, that after the pledges Which he had so often given, as to his opinion upon the necessity'of Catholic Etnancipatisin, it weitlel be unnecessary for him to trouble the Iloiese with any observations. The speech of the Noble Lord oppo site, so. highly honourable to himself, had ensbiaLed every argument in favour of the goestion. In reply, 'however. to an allusion of the Right Honeurable , Gentleman who spoke last. he felt himself called upon to say, that he was not individually cuithurird by the Pope (a laugh) to state the arraitgemeots which : fps. i Holiness was disposed to make as to the nomination lof prelates. He could state, howe'ver, that there*Fas ia documentle this country which declared, that the ePope was ready to acquiesce in the measure of do mestic nomination--(Near, hear). . ! Mr. CANNING said, he could not glee a silent vote on, this occasion, consistetirly w:th that,police which he had felt it his duty to adopt in teAard to shis . measure. He telt it the more necessary ro say something, after the speech of consummate ability which they had just lietud from his Right Elonoui able 'Friend. The result, however, of Lip statement,. amounted to no more than this, that by the question the House was placed in a' state of infinite diifictilfy. —(Heardasar).—lt was true that they catiVt take no step, either forwarder backward, that would be per fectly satisfactory. He allowed that, even. if the measure was introduced and adopted, there would still remain several anomalies in the law. Jut the stion was, whether, .by going so ler, they could remove any of the existing intone:flier:Cc; e/ithout danger to the establishment ? It he thotiebt that the slightest hazard of that nature could result, he would agree that they ought to pause where they now were,' rather than risk such a danger ; but being in his constietece convinced, that they might go with safety to the extent of the measure now proposed, he did not hesitate' to say, that they ought to go further. They should weigh the disadvantage of 'the ano malies they might create with the state of things which they would get rid of.— (Hear, hear).-- He would take the measure of 181:t—he would take the gtoied of their admission lop rarliament. 'lf such a measure was agreed to, he was satisfied that at no distant period they irould see many professors of that religion in the Houses There wore two classes of people who might obtain seats ::hose who by their rank were entitled to the distinction, and those who by taking advantage of Catholic disabilities, to in flame the passions of the people, could not shew so good a claim. He would say, that to open the doors. of the House of Commons to such men as these, would be to nullify the mischiefs they had created— (Hear, hear.) —By bringing them there, they would have an opportunity to cope with the mischief. If his Right Hon. Friend 'could state that the country was satisfied with the system as it stood, be would say, let it stand as it is. But if there was any uneasi ness of discussion, both in Ireland and here, he would not be deterred, because he could not do all that ought to be done, from doing all that couldf be done. It had been stated that they ought to be sure that good effects would follow, but how could they be sure ?—(Near, hear, .hear.)—lt was sot by canvass out pt doors, but by enactments within, that they were to be decided in their conduct. 3 the Catholics would not accept , the boon, still let Parliameut complete the Act, - an t( they would find that those whom Parliameut governed would soon obey. They were not td consider the Catholics alone, but, the benefit at the whole community. As to n hat the Pope might .be prepared to do, it could not be come a matter of previous negociation. It the ten 'clency of the measure was to conciliate, he cared not . at which side the work began, whether from the yo. luntary beaevolence of the Legislature, or thesuPpli. cation of the Catholic, whiila called tlaat'benevelence into action, - The tormer'measure had produced die , content in Ireland, and satiSfdition at Rome ; the rea son of which was, that in Rome they thought it was carried.. while* initeladd' they knew it' ailed. .. This afforded realm for thinking . that if it had passed, ate 'satire effects woad. Hare followed in both countries. He was not deterred by the contemplation of any un certainty itt the'result trim 'voting for the Commit , tee— , (ifear,' hear ! with irks of Quertioo, parti.:o 1) • Mr., GRATTAN then tow . to reply- 4 . sir, withith respect to the difficulty that t 4 itrh 7- oSid to arise from going unprepared into Uri Committee, I shall oily observe, that. you tan command your own securities --you can cemmand the security of domestictionr.i ,natiott. „I maturely deny that the sense ut the Cl. .liiltlica, is. such ins to prevent them from submitting. What is for the good of the Catholic is for•the good i l of the whol* It is your duty to dare Om country, - . and net to aceomtoodate any particolar set of rim. Au Honottiable Gentleman, who, I r. gret, was not mere attcode'cl to, oboove.l in the c' , utsei)i hii speech, that this was a Protestant Constiooi. To he snip baptise the Constitution if lie will. but origitoiliy it was Catholic—that is, it was founded by C.oholica. All the great laws to salich tt e P'eople owe their liberty were. the %took of Calhollcs. At, the time of tile Kevolotton one ancestors contented the:twelve , ' with in-king a Declaration of Right, because, the) , coold not go faither than the Catholics bad gone. The Billet Rights was a Declaratory Law I it was doclaratory of the privileges 'pained by our Catholic ancestors. These 'rho cl.my that the Coholics have a right to demand emanckpation, (timid their argue ',mot on inference. Dot rig cannot take away pre rogative Sy inference—yon cannot take away 04.. lege,by inlererre. But their is this great error iss their argument—they found their inference on a mis statement of facts. First, they say, that rite Catho lics are subject to pains and penalties, which do not !exist—and from this they draw their inference. Al Honourable- Member, tin the second bench, was pleased to say, that, at the time of the Revolution, the exclusion of the Catholics WAS a fundomental principle of the Constitution. L' it that time a danger threatened the religion of the country—but nil you will observe, that the disabilities which the Cathal:cs complained of, and which were now increased ; did not take place till after the Revolution. S on o of them were enacted in the latter part of .Witham's reign, and others took place in the reign of Anne. Now, what sort of an experiment was this ? It was an experiment to uphold one religion by irihictlni pains and penalties on the prolessensot another. G Lt, if you look alittle indict, you will find that the oath. afterwards administered, was not a penal oath against the religion of. the Catholics—bat an oath 'imposed .upcal such persons as were then supposed Its obey the temporal power of the Po; e. If we lot lc to the Catholic religion, as connected with the P ol o-, it will at once be conceded, that that • cite:tray:at ce would not justify the obedience of a soh;.:;:t to a to reian puce;—anti thecLfhre, the Veto was d t vi, t d N ) meet that evil, and to prevent it. i h:lere, eon, (liar danger cease.. Again; we proffer yo.t domestic :milli natibn. Both the tiro And domesoc rhoolo ition are at your feet-so t! at the argument hettetei oo the ne cessity of cnecktogforeign inflaence is rit ~ I .Ftht to. Gentlemen argued) that it was contrary to the p:* 1- eiples of the Constitution to let Rontatt Catholics possess hoy,civil or military office. :raw, I will read an cztract from the Act passed in l7fat, whizh rebuts this assertion. The Statute salty,' I3e it enacted. that it shall and may be lawful for Papis•s, or perstots pro ,iessing the ,Pviili,h, or Roman C4111l)liC itcligiuo, to 11,1 _I, exercise. and enjoy, all civil and military oilices, Lir places of trust arid . profit toider•his MA.. jesty"— (gear, hear.) Gentleman co..ter d, th et Ca tholics canna be admitted to political. power, besause it is against the principle of the .Constitution-!-atad here is a law.ezptemiy admitting,them to thepartio'io pation of chat power.' Now I want t.ojtoow, how iois cootrary to tits ptiosirie J of the Coro:halloo to athwit. rirs:.l3 WO At powavon to enjay.civil t-inititisto: eth,te,st What, :then, bectones.of iI.jVC arguments, woich 1 ty o thetho suffer them to particiliate . „ll political ifewitto: is,cutorary to the funatamentel princualecof theyni stitutionritheteeismailleit tire lawoor the prooopless of the 1.4 w.? Let us cu;o6der tio subject tally, othil - we aleall,mt anitthwhatm ethealtioaeous air therscaikos amen have endeasrpuftei .to argue tour millibar A their fellow-sutiktcts into.perpetu.:l bondage. I new shall notice the conduct of the Cathotics. vilticteft.t been so . roughly.ceitsured. Here,. Lihink, the ear , liament acquits diem at once. • The law that gave the CflillallCS arms, acquitted there of imentious•hos. tile to the State-a-and tuelatv'th - it gave them a vote at rleetions, and made them a part of the Conectoosef rite realmo proves that the' Legislature comiderad them to be devoted to the Constitution. 'ma ktiers of Cardinal Litta and of Monseigneur Quarantotti arc decided Patliautentary evidence ol• their 414- illiCe. They both ,hew,, that tine *allegiance of the Catholics was .not against theieeliogs ur see invents of the Pope, but that he, on the contrary, commanded it. What right had the Legislature then to.disfran chise the Catholics Z 1 altos' that Parliament hosahe power of limiting. the political capacity. of the sub. ject o but, I say, they have not a right to do it, with out a powerful reason ; and I will maintain, that the religion of the Catholics is riot a proper reason. :Usti charges rashly made against them, charges-. tallith have not any solid basis, do not constitute a reaton to disqualify them. And, therefore, I cotuendothac the present acts ot disqualification are acts'ot power; acts of injustice, and ought to be repealed. Itlear, heaiv) I forgot to notice how the Catholics had made use of the power which they had front time to time as. paired. I refer to your Generals and•Adnairals.— (llear, hear.) I will not speak *of 'Lir tattle 'or tut that battle-1 will not particularise this victory .or that achievement—but 1 will ask, how. can Get.tee. men impeach their loyalty, who have seetethem•slied their blood in defence of that which it ihisaid. they mean to undermine. (Load/hies or Hear,lacrAevr ) An Honourable Gentleman opposite says, that, if there were any commotion its the country; the Catho lics would follow their Priests. What right have o e to assert that they would do so ? What right !lava we to say, that those who tilled ymit- f'..cts and ..r -mies, wheat engaged in w..rs abtoad, would act un worthily when confidence wiis el Iced in them at home f Would it not be hard to s•ty, ". Wateaps t!:e Pope - has reaewed the Society ct slesuifs—sod bas suffered the revival of the lequisition—therefore be it enacted that Lord F:r.al be attainted ?" You would say, " No—this is an act of monstrous injustice:, Which' we can never chill of." But when the loyilty .of the whole Catholic commuitity is impeached, with atilt& reason, it is hatted as a just and regolar pro ceeding —(flear, heir). You etect a hathaal tlitsanal, amide); the offence ot an individual, yin do n swell the character of your law into the Onanitsotence.4 the Deal, and utters dengnciation against a asholo c onmsuutty—(Hear,.• hear). It is . toe folly •of Tr:?: Code of . Laws , that hlte,Body are punjaheli ihr Jig ctime (keiil or SPRPOiIt : I) ...Or . an it:division!. . The History at Ireland has beimappaalesa to, AS furtusa lug strongoirgoinente-itri.ierottr or the enponciag of chip quattoh. Whatit,that; hiit"!'a i r„ ray., it ii .the tahi o(Lita,tualsaitga kleavi vented, algid a allay ..suisutastagel--.(1/i rbs • biatAtida is,- in' the • tine an. Worse siteitlikdoecidiaili lift aionotsi:! Re` ay L'irwcr, eild h: tia'.t.ted it—', :Veer, • - he ru.# lidi -A ttfvkity 1 .0 wn! tOrra• .•••• •