Star. — London, England, 1822-02-23 00:00:00

• • • Mr. HUME reteinkr;h:. Right lion. Geqii - Oman that when he (Mr. fliitiSel had brought forwaid . th; subject. he (the Chancellor of tbe - stood uo to negatiVe his motion. He corn) the d ,,ct of the Right Hon. Gentleman, he would carry his present Resolution into el, Mr. BROUGHAM hoped the expense of collecting the Sixpenny anti Shilling Duties would also be di minished. Were such means resorted to, much might be saved, but this did not appear to be the object of Ministers. In proof of this, he alluded to the case of an individual who, having I•cen superannuated in one office; now held two others in the Land Tax Office. He would direct the attention cf his lion. Friend, the Member fur Aberdeen, to that .otlice, and he was sure it he rooked there he would find plenty of abuses to occupy him for some time. The motina as amen:cd, by the omission of the 'words " no more," was thcu agreed to. Oa the motion of the ellAxcELLon of the EXCRII gerEn, it WAS agreed to continue the annual taxes on :Sugar, Tobacco, .3:c. The CH A NCF.LT.OII of the rXe HEWER then snrived that leave bz given to raise twenty millions by 'Exchzquer Bills. Mr. ELLICE asked a question respecting the result of the Meeting at the Treasury Chambers that day. The CHANCELLOR .1 the EXCHEQUER re plied, that on Monday next he would brng forward the plan which he proposed. The motion was then. agreed to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved that four millions, a surplus remaining in the Eschrquer of the Supplies 0f.1821, be applied to the zervice of which was agreed to. The House theh resumed, and the Report was or dered to be received on Monday next. Jii !hequer) had tplained of but hopsd -frect. Tic CHANCELLOR of the - EXCHEQUER gave no:ice. teat on Monday next . he would move thin the House re,olve itself into a Committee for con. i del ing t!►e Act of 1784; commonly called the Navy 5 per C,;.lt. Act. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. Oa Ole motion of the CHANCELLOR of the El c iiEQLE It that the Order of the 1)47 be read for the ki ause g into a Cn .113 mittec of Supply, Sir )1 AT MEW WHITE RIDLEY wished to ko-;a: it it was the intention of his Majesty's Minis ters to continue still the same number of Lords of the Athniralty? He had a motion to submit on a fu ture ...ay on that subject. Mr. IIEiINAL sa►d, that the salaries of the Lords of :Le Ad:niralty might to be reduced. He wished to know what plan way to be proposed with regard to the redact;on of those salaries? Tl.e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it was the intention, with respect to the inferior Officers, to form a fund by a Bill for the reduction of their salaries. With respect to the superior Offi cers, it was proposed to make a reduction of 10 per cent. on their salarie,. Mr. HUME said, that the House was to be called en to vote away 1.781.000/. It was usual for the House to assent to those votes as soon as proposed, without any inquiry into the manner in which the money had been expended. No objection was ever made to those votes until the last year. The Noble Marquis had stated, that we had come to that period in which we were enabled to make considerable re ductions in our establishments. Those establishments were not by any means so low as they ought to be. The aggrega:e amount of reduction which he stated might be made wa. three millions and a half. But so far was the Noble Nlarquis from making reduc tions in the expenditure, that it was rather increased. He would then call on the House not to give credit to the st.rements which might be made from the ether 'lse. but attend to facts alone, and to nothing else—(Hear). —ln the year 1817 the Noble Marquis had fixed the wear and tear of the Navy at 1.556 0001. The House was to expect rather a reduction of that turn. When they consi.iered the reduction in the ;rice of provisions—when they con , idered the reduc tion in the prices of ordnance, they were to indulge La anticipations that the sum fixed in 1817 would not to co:air...el The House w.arld recollect,when the £:•st vote of 1,781,0001. should be proposed to them, that the Finance Committee had thought 1.556,0001. sulli.ient—(llear, hear).—lnstead of making a re ductioi. from that sum, as might be supposed. the • 3te in the sixth year of peace was to exceed the vote tar similar purposes in the first year 01 peace by :ler rl y 233,0001.—( Mar, hear).—Wh at he would inaist on was, that that House should know the spe cific and particular purposes for which the vote ' Was required. It was impossible to allow the vote to pass without knowing every item contained in the gross sum. In the year 1819 they had to provide tor 19,000 men, including seamen and marines; of tf•e former there were 13,000, and 6,090 marines.- 1a the last ) ear they had 22,000, and in the pre scut year they were to provide for 21,000, which was less by 1,009 than they had in the last year, and more by 2,000 than they had in 1819—(Hear). Ti:e Hon. Gentleman then went through the several ictirs of which the vote consisted, and contended fiat the House could not accede to the vote, without trst knowing the intended application of every part ti it. Ile had drawn up a motion for additional re turns of E:timates. The Finance Committee re cuired those returns, and he then called on the House to insist on them before they would grant one shilling of the public money. The charge upon the Staff of the Navy last year, was 31.0,6661. on which they were prevented from taking the sense of the House, be cause they had not the Returns before them. What could be the season of withholding .from the house the particular account of the Staff of the Navy and Marines ? Why were not they submitted to the House, as well as the accounts of the Staff of the Army, unless there was something in the former v:hich it was thought necessary to conceal from the House? There were, in fact, among those accounts, enormous sinecure places, amounting to eighteen or twenty guineas a-day. He wished the House to know the actual charge, and the particular items, that they might object to those sinecure places, and other large and unnecessary expenses. The next charge was 12,068/. for Barracks. That was a large sum ; but he could not conceive what occasion they had for Marine Barracks, which required an expense of more than 1.20101. Every charge only tended to shew the treater necessity for the production of the accounts. I here was another charge for Contingencies, which •aracsated to 12,7281. and no satisfaction was to be gives OM. as ter the apprseitiOn Of tbdie sums. The PinanciCornntittee were sorpti'sed at the manner in which. item Estimates were laid before Lb, Hotta.. -The fact was, that Ministers might Charge what they pleased ; a n d it wa s to gu aid against that he would have the Returns before the House. The Inspector-General's office cost USW. Under those circumstances it was impossible for the Members of that House to do -their duty without knowing, the amount of the whole Navy expenses, as well as every particular sum. The expense of the *bole active establishment amounted to 900,0001.; whereas the country lost nearly six millions and a half by the civiltffices. It was with a view to knOw how all this money was applied that he wished to submit his motion.' The charges for the present year should have been at least half what they had been in other years. -The charge for provisions ought to be less by half, on account of the great fall in the prices of beef, pork, and butter. It was no answer to say that the fall of provisions in this country could sot make any difference in respect of those on foreign stations.— Provisions had also fallen one-half in price in foreign countries; and if not, they could be sent from this country. They had transports, for which they paid. and in which provisions might be conveyed; and for that reason there should be no alteration in the charge for provisions in respect of foreign stations. The Hon. Member then commented on the monthly allowance for the wear and tear, &c. and said the reduction was not sufficient. If there was nothing wrong in the ac counts for which he was going to move, why should they not be produced ? In fact, the very concealment of those accounts by-Ministers was calculated to excite suspicion that there was something wrong in them. lie NV AS resolved to oppose the grant ; and, if the House would support him, he would be content to remain there until ten o'clock in the morning, before he would vote away one single That was the time, if ever, in which the mismanagement of the public money called for an examination. That was the tim- in which the miscalculations of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer called for an examination— ' (Ifeer, hetr).=He would repeat that the Right Hon. Gentleman had mad_ a mistake in his calculations. He bad promised a saving of £4,000 000. but he was performing but a saving of £2.600,000—( Hear, hear). He agreed in the opinion of the Finance Committee, that the ships in ordinary ought to be kept in good condition, and they were better then than they had ever been: Seventeen millions had been laid out since the year 1816. in building and repairing ship.. He complained that no reductions were made to satisfy the Public. In these times the naval service was no more than pleasure parties. They had no foreign wars, no sieges, no blockades, no chaces, no more than they had in 1792. Why then shoal,' the charges for naval ordnance be doubled ? He believed the whole of those establishments were kept up at Sheer ness, for the benefit of the electors of Qtreenborough. The establishments were kept on, and the persons in office had nothing to do. It became the e tire occu pation of the clerks to project pleasure parties. lie was not ignorant of the manner in which they spent their time, and be would probably have occasion to allude to it at another time. The charge for the esta blishment there was L.:IS,SM The Finance Com mittee objected to the employment of all ordnance craft. They stated, that all the powder kept for some months in these floating magazines became unfit for use ; yet there was an establishment of 14 kept up in spite of their Report. So far from complying with the Report, six yes els mere hired from the Corpora tion of Queenborough, but were since discharged.— He would pledge himself to prove that they were not employed one day in a month while they were paid. Some perhaps were les, favoured than others, because their interest in the Borough was less. Be sides those. there mere nine boys employed, the ex pense of which might he estimated at one pound per day for each. All those belonged to the freemen of Queenborough. The whole expease of these nine boys was 22851. half of which was estimated clear profit. He would maintain that some of those lay for four or five years at Woolwich, at a charge of 18s. per day. He would repeat that he could not, under those circumstances, vote for 81,000!. for the Ord nance Department of the Navy. The court' was at the great expense of 12,000/. a year in manufactur ing gunpowder without any use for it, and which could not be preserved. They had ammunition enough for twenty years, and under such circum stances they should not go to expense. He could as sure the House that he was not a person to recom mend any injurious reductions of the Naval establish ment. He even regretted to see the Navy neglected in comparison with the Army. The Military had been the favourite establishment in this country, at the exper.se of that Navy which led us to so much glory. Ile was nut diposed to make any invidious compari sons, but if he had the power, he certainly would give a preference to the Navy. He would not reduce the lumber of our seamen to thirteen thousand. He ob- jected more to the number of Marines, because they belonged to the military, and he dreaded military power. The lion. Gentleman cohcluded by moving the following Resolution by way of Amendment: " A return, in detail, of the manner in which the sum of £393,755, estimated for wages, in 1822, is to be.ezpend?d, dis tinguishing the number of each rank of the Royal Marines, and the pay of each class, and of the whole. Also, the number of Officers of each rank, and of men, in the Navy, the amount of charge for each class, and for the whole." Mr.CROICEII and Sir ISAAC COFFIN rose together; but Sir Isnac COFFIN giving way, Mr. CltOKElt said he should not oppose any mo tion the object of which was to require information, if the lion. Gentleman could satisfy him did Go, vernment had refused any papers which were proper to be communicated. He believed the papers in question were the only ones refused out of the thou sands the Ilon. Gentleman had moved for. He would shew that those papers were withheld on good grounds, and that it was inconsistent with a proper regard to the public safety to communicate them- 1 (Hear, hear).—He would say, that fur the last seventy ears in which the Navy Estimates were voted, this was the first time those Returns were called for. In all the fancies and imaginations of men—in all the feelings of party, no one bad gone so far as to de mand the Returns whiCh the Hon. Member required. He did not mean to say that because no inquiry was ever made, no one should call for the Returns then; but their ancestors and them,elves had wise reasons for withholding those Returns, and. treating them with peculiar delicacy. He would maintain that the lion. Gentleman (Hr. flume) made extravagant • • • Mistake' s ire tiagietele, Wluttintrposw toold the non. himself by Intit an inotkiry? mended iniwar, it must be An imair' into the state of been demanded during- 70 years, es its greatest expenditure . ; and that proceeded from aa obvious policy, that it might be dettimentall. to the safety of the country if the stations to which they;' might be appointed, their force, and number, were previonsly known. The next class of expenditure was the OrdinaryaritfExtraardinary Estimates ; and,' in alluding to these, the Hon. Gentleman had in-' eluded the building of ships in Englind and .tlt Dock-yards; bnt he would inform the Hon. Gentle man that these were distinct and separate heacs,. 4 which he would see when they were laid before Par; lament in detiiil, if the House should determine on going into a Committee. It would be . unnecessary for him to dilate on the great injury that would arise to the country, if all the circumstances connected with the fleet afloat were to be disclosed to the Public in this country ; from that disclosure would result p knowledge of our naval affairs in foreign countries, which, even in peace, might be productive of the greatest evil to the country ; but the Hon. Gentleman would say how could a return of the Navy Estimates betray the secrets of the fleet? The J-lon. Gentleman must be well aware that, in that return, every cir cumstance connected with the manageinent of the Navy afloat should come oat, a n d, if not, he wouli only refer him to arrlion. Gentleman near him. lle• (Mr. Hume) had spoken of the prices paid for provi sioning and victualling the Navy; but he seemed to have taken the standard of his prices from Leaden hall-market. Did he pretend to say that he under stood the, system of victualling the Navy, it he would limo' to establish the same standard under every circumstance it rnOlt be place.! in ? Did not the Hon. Gentleman know that there was a great difference in victualing on a foreign station and a home one, and eve) a difference between every foreign one He would again repeat. if a return of the Navy Estimates be . made . every wo uld be the House be obliged to mention its naval force, and publish it to every foreign State—(Hear, hear, hear). The Honourable Gentleman had said, that Navy accounts were given in 1817 ; that gave him only an indivi dual case, and under particular circumstances—they were given to a Select Committee. But was it be cause the liberality of Government had given them oa one occasion, that they should now be given M plaspectu every year, and the fleet not suffered to go to sea until the country had known how it was to be directed ? which would be the effect of acceding to the Han. Gentleman's measure. He begged the at• tention of the House to some observations which he wished to make on what had !alien look the Hon. Gentleman, regarding the wages, and wear and tear, of the Navy. He had said, that since 1817, a sum of 17,000,0001. had been expended on the Navy, which would be large enough to build all the ships in the world ; but he (Mr. Croker) would at once give him up all the Papers he asked for, if he would shew him that seven million; had been expended, much less seventeen millions. The Hon. Gentleman, in that calculation, otwa have converted stones into wood; he must have included the buildings at Sheerness, the building of wharfs, and the Breakwater at Plymouth ; which cost one million; yet all would scarcely amount to seventeen millions. From the documents which he held in his hand, he would read the sums voted in each year, to shew his ('Jr. Hume s) accuracy ; and he would take it as a favour from him to correct him if wrong—(Hear, hear). In 181 7 . - - - £1,590,277 1818 - - - 1,150,000 1819 - - - 1,114,000 1820 - - - 1,142,000 1821 - - - 1,094,000 Total for five years £5,900,277 Mr. H 1; ME, in the two first items, begged leave to correct the Hon. Member. The first was 1,760,2771. the second 1.730,0001. Mr. CROKElt—The Hon. Member must see how widely incorrect his statement had been, and how far short the expenditure had come of his 17,000,000. His noble, to use a vulgar phrase, had now come to ninepcnce? He tregged pardon of the House for having digressed so much, but the Hon. Gentleman's statement required some observation. He (Mr. Hume) had come down to dictate to the House, and tell them he would sit till ten in the morning to enlighten their misinto! illation. He did not seem to understand what was meant by wear and tear. lie said ships lying in harbour ought not to suffer either—Plr. Hoot No such thing'l.—lie said they had been doing nothing but giving holiday parties, were indul ging in luxury, amusing themselves with balls and dancing; but he (Mr. Cioker) would tell him there was more active exertion, more wear and tear of human labour, the last year in the channel, than had been at any period during the war. A great number of seamen were employed in cruizers, which was a most laborious service, for the purpose of preventing smuggling; and there could be no stronger proof of the efficacy of that system, and of the active exertion of the seamen, than the increase in our Revenue.— For the purpose of giving more effect to that system, the seamen had been divided into small ships, from which proceeded more wear and tear than if they wet e confined to large ones. He (Mr. Hume) had come down, in the mass of his information, to inform the House that 6,000 marines were employed in what he had termed summer sailing ; but he seemed to have forgotten his geography—did he not know that we required a large force in the Mediterranean, and another to protect our South American trade? Did he not know that Cape Horn and the Cape of Good Hope must be doubled —(hear) ;—and that a strong force must also be kept on the coast of Africa to prevent the Slave Trade? The Hon. Gendem'a'n ought to. have described that service in other terms than summer and yacht sailing. Now that the House saw the tidicu:e of the thing he exposedr-(liear)-7-i4 would not wish to hear any more observatioqs on that subject. lie would just remind him, that when he, itt his speech, was apprized of the foreigi stations, he threw it also overboard. He (Mr. Huttle).iviAted an inquiry into the wages of seamen, becatise . tlle marines were included. Whatever information . he wanted on that sut-ject, he could have st hen he pleased ; he hid it last year, and it was no more this.. He had told the* that the entire pay of the marines aMou,nte4 ,t. 350,0001. which, deducted flints 600,0001. left duly 250,6001. to ray the seamen ; but he would tell tkem 'which did ~ay; and all voted forahe SUMS , , right; he amid have hardly believed the tomcats; Of the "Bon. Gentleman's caleulations-180.0001. the real sum that should be dedicated. All dilimiS idiitstt oiliihich were quite distinct charges. he had put toge. ther, and deducted them from the pay of the fleet. 'He might, with as much reason, have deducted the sum voted for the building of churches & or any "other purpose. The Hon. Gentleman implored the House to inquire into the Royal Marine Depattment, JseA• cause the Paymaster had a salary of 27701. ; and he 'adduced that as an Instance why the, House should inquire before voting the Estimates. That appeared to be the strongest point he made, because that (ia.n tleman was not at sea, but resided on land-aztffear). 'However, he was ready to discuss that subject when 'the House should go into a Committee. The , crown ofthe Hon. Gentleman's merit had now approached ; he said he would increase the Navy and lessen the Marines. A different doctrine was held five years ago ; at that time the House were of opinion thai the number should be kept as high as possible. There .war considerable difference between a soldier and a sea -IMan—one was obliged to give his service for life, but 'the other only for three years. If we were to add . .two thousand seamen, we should he obliged to take them from the Marines, and thus be relinquishing a service for life for one of thtee yestri. Ile has said the pay of a seaman in 1792, was 44 is month, and now it was 61.10 i. 6d. He might have gone further back, and lie would have found it 'vas 44 a month also in 1727 ; but the Noble Lord (Lord . AithOrr) had candidly and fairly said that:the apparent com parison was not the real one. If any GentJernan con sulted the Jonrnals of the House, and saw the sums voted in 1792, he would be surprised to see the little difference between them and those of this year. Be would state a fact or two to guide them. In 1792 the suns voted was1,800;0001. there were subsequent grants of 805,0001. 131,0001. and 430,0001. which made 'a total of 3,166;0001. for the Navy Estimates in the year 1792. For this year they amounted to 3,310,000/. which would considerably lessen that in the year 1 1792, if the price of provisions and the difference between the tvio period's, were taken into account.— The Hon. Gentleman had complained of the appoint ment of Naval Officers to be Colonels of Mat ines, but he (Mr. Croker)- contended it was a bond of union between the Army and Navy, and it was essential to the honour and dignity of the service that his Majesty should be enabled to reward meritorious Officers by appointing them to honourable situations. He would give the tlonse an opportunity of judging of the dis tinguished characters who filled those situations in. the marines, by reading to them the names of the Commanders since their institution—Admirals Lord Forbes, Howe, Barry, Bridpnrt, and last, andlosig may he continue so, Earl St. Vincent, most ennobled, and raised to the Peerage, forming a bright galaxy, which sheds a lustre on the country. He contended it would be injurious to the Constitution if - they should disclose the circumstances connected with the N'ivy • which, in time of war, would enable the foe to dis cover all our naval movements. Our ancestors bad alWays guarded' against it, and' he entreated the 'House, on the present occasion, not to-deviate from the plan pursued for so many years—(The }lon. Gen.- tleman sat down amidst loud applause.) • • - Mr. BENNET gave the Hon. Gentleman who had just*sat down much credit for fhe ingenious and de;- terous speech he had made ; but the sarcasms which he had thrown out upon his Friends, both in that House and else% here, were quite uncalled for.; He begged to tell the House,' 'that it was' no novelty to the Constitution to accede to the measure of his Hon. Friend. By the Report of the Committee'ihat h%:l been made in 1818, the principle was acknowledge& He would tell the Hon. Gentleman, that the principle of the Constitution was violated by permitting Minis ters to apply the public money as they thought fit..l. If his Hon. Friend's. Amendment was adopted, he was conviticed the most beneficial results would flow from if. . . • Mr. C R °HER said the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bennet) had done him more credit .than he deserved, by attributing to .• him any wit ; but the lion. Gentleman bad used the expression, - •' the wit which he knew how to use here and elsewhere." Now he (Mr. Croker) assured the Hon. Gentleman, on his honour as a Gentlermin, that Out of that House he had never taken the liberty to make the slightest allusion to the Hon. Gentleman or • his Friends—(Hear).—The House then divided: For going into the Committee - - - 144 For Mr. Hume's Amendment - - - - 54 Majority On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, Mr. CAL CRAFT put a question to Ministers whether It was intended to make any provision for insane officers? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not give any specific answer to the question. Mr. HUME then called the attention of the House to what he conceived the present enormously high price of victualling the Navy. What he wished for on all occasions of expenditure, was to have a detail of the various items laid before the House ; for otherwise it would be impossible for any man to understand the accounts. The lion. Secretary had tal4.ed of the danger of making our naval operations known to othei countries; but he wished to ask what enemies were we at this time afraid ed= and what inconvenience could arise from producing the hsfor motion which he sought for? He never asked to be informed as to the stations which our Navy wai to occupy in distant parts of the world—he merely asked to know the number of Naval officers on the Staff, arid all the . answer given bias be . the Honourable Secretary to the Admiralty was, that of ailing him (Mr. Hume) a fisher of grievances, and a per. son who did not know the difference between bjick and, mortar. The best answer he could give , to the observations' which the Honourable Member delivered in his 'metapharkal and bombastic style was, that the Honourable Member, had in his hands, his (Mr. Hume's) documems on thc very subject in question, but forgot his statement, in which he sheared ;that the Naval expenses since the year 1 tilt; were seventh*, 'millions. Here the Honourable Gentleman enumerated the several expenses which had been incurred ,;ilt the several Royal Dock-yards, and among these he said At would appear, that a suns of 4,600,0001. had been expended merely in back and mortar. On the Ureakwititer of plymouth about 1,700,0c01 t 'had been expended, and it would require stilt more money to finish it. After such great expenses as these, it was nit too, much to expect that the expenditure of the preseSt year would. 'be reduced. lie was at a loss to cenicive wily,such camases should be incurred for the weir and tear of Alps, aPhas k "'ea determined to break up good shipi arid plaid sleet ones in their stead. '{'hp, Hon: Gentleman 'talir..4 . ef his (Mr. Neese's) es cemmending to pass Cape Voris in a small hey..,aud bavieg for., got his knowledge of geography; apse than ati attempt to draw the attention of the Etonse Cron) the ras i lstate of the facts. He (Mr. ibmieTwantid nothing but an account Saf the' Flag and Staff OfiteerA Ind 10 kW , this row why the Aravy *air so mitib 'hater at this expense of victaalfirt,g time than some years ago, althowgh provisions were one-11.tle cheaper? The object of his motion was to get a correct account of the exp enditure; be asked for no more thin this infoinutivn • _ till . oa t . __ ptyx in his calc of orj e ta t ie tn i i i ) propose to to 'is Hlt hid isicluded avast* birraek ? If it were never de- clothes, shoes, meat,' end ethei expentis, wh less ipppottane its peace lot properly come Uncle,. the head of pay, the Rest afloat' had not these he deducted lions the wages Crone Voted rears; even at the.time of Nairy ; and if these sums had not come out ri Vis • s.n.b.Loagaai e..rirn n 1.1 k... 1111 L . _ P'" - R I