Star. — London, England, 1817-08-15 00:00:00

I !1 may the evils of society and the pram distresses of the country, he could not but regard him; but, in respect to the proposition he held out as a universal care. t e c net but consider him as a ;:sionary. Again stepped forward, a;.d after hay- I jog wailed short time until the tumult was abated, _aid tiTat the Gentleman who had last addressed the. Meeting had entered so minutely into the question, and had so well rel uted the visionary schemes of the Gentler:lmi who had spoken first in the debate, that he had little left to say. He was hini.clf a practical man, and had had 23 years' experience, and possesed an intimate knowledge of the situation of the poor of the country. Having been bred a farmer, in know ledge upon agricultural subjects he yielded to nu man. He assured the Meeting that tar pl in which had been proposed was, when examined, wild and visionary. The whole proceeded upon an error as to the cause of the pauperism of toe country. Mr. Johnson's plan of raising m-ney was thought to be most advantageous for the ptirrose of carrying this scheme into execution. It was nothing more or less than this—that the sum of £lbo,ooo should be ad vanced by Government, and one hundred Gentle men were to give security for it. But where was this money to be obtained ? Out of the pockets of the starving people. He agreed that something ought to he done, hut a false basis had been formed; and the true cause of the distresses was forgotten. A Com mittee indeed was proposed to be formed of all the Archbisbips and Ministers in the country : he thought. to cut the matter short.. the whole of the Members of Parliament should have been nominated. He then entered upon certain calculations he had made, in order to .hew the true cause of the evil which now existed to so alarming an extent. [Here Mr. Hunt was again interrupted by the clamour of the Meeting.] The CMAINMAN. --Gentlemen, you observe Mr. Hunt's patience and his capacity ; you must, how ever, preserve order and decency. Mr. HUNT proceeded to state the rnann-r in wh;ch paup• risni had increased in a patio in the county of Wilts, in which he had resided for a great portion of his lee. In this pariah the population was 660 per sons, and it had dimloished or increased but in a very small degree. Of these, 240 were farmers and trades men ; YOU were labostrets, and there were 220 la bourers, tradesmen, and farmers, dependent upon the parislrfor support. In 1780, the :cumber of paupers in this parish was 55 or 56, and it. was now increased to 2xo. In 1780, the principal farm in this parish let for iblitet a year; that faun now let for F 1260. In 1780, the labourer received Gs. per week for his labour, and bread was 6d. the qoartern loaf. Now, the labourer received only !Os. .per week, and the quartern leaf was Is. 6d. During this period land , had risen 300 per cent. and wages had only risen 50 per cent. Thu was the case, no; billy in this parish,' ' bit in every parish is the country. These Were the evils to be remedied. Would Mr. Owen's plan over come them ? Would it sink the rental of that farm to £4OO per annum ? Would it reduce the price of bread to fid. the quarteru loal ? Or would it raise the wages in proportion to the rise iu the price of corn ? One of the causes of distress, he (Mr. Hunt) had before stated, was the existence of Sinecure Places—(Of eff). 'fhe CHAMIAN observed, that the introduction of politics was a useless waste of time. Mr.-Huai continued.—ln another parish, in Wilt. shire, • great portion of the corn of the country was actually destroyed by the unnecessary preservation of game. There .500 acres of wheat were grown, and .the land would yield eight sick' per acre; but in consequence of the very grew quantities of hares which were preserved, the' landlord always made an allowance to his tenants of two sacks per acre. It Mae therefore evident, that' in this parish 1000 sacks of wheat were annually destroyed by useless animals. Atter having stated that the land in the kingdom was not half cultivated, through the enormous burden of the Poor-rates, he concluded with moving an amend. =eat to the following effect " That pauperism Is increased in an equal sad progressive pro portion with the increase of mutton. "'('bat eseessive taxation is the cause of the prom slegmlnll and distieSsing pauperism. . 1 * . 1 hat, therefore, to remove or k4sen taxationSpeigd mem of the evil, is the only sum wad 'Masai mesas .PP4Pgrian•" WOll.llll felt as disposed as any gentleman in that meeting to keep the objects of discussion un mixed by any political feeling ; but though willing to avoid any thing like political asperity, he felt the dif fleshy -of separating altogether questions of political economy ftorn considerations of political practice. It was also impossible, in his apprehensi - in, in seeking the remedy for acknowledged public distress, not to glance at, though it might not be the proper occasion of discussing, the causes of that distress. It was now at length universally acknowledged, that the exist ing system under which the country laboured, had reached its limit of sufferance. All agree that some thing must be done—that the course hitherto parr. toed was fully tried, and had failed—and that some expedient in the shape of amelioration must be promptly adopted—(Near, hear.) He was ready to acquiesce in the opinion that all political experiments were dangerous—but the true question under existing circumstances was, whether a greater danger was not likely to result, from not meeting by adequate cor rectives the evils that now affected the community, and which, unless ameliorated, must lead to confu sion and ruin ? ' He felt the most sincere respect for the motives and public spirit of Mr. Owen. He thought the country much indebted to him for bring lag before it fairly the true view of its actual situa tion, but lie still trust contend that the plan he propo sed as his remedy was inadequate in some points, and likely to injure in more material considerations.— In the first introduction of the poor laws, something like the present plan was aimed at, and what was then theoretically contemplated as a good, had, in the re sult, been productive of incalculable evil. It was then hoped to guard against the increase of mendi city, by enacting that every parish should number its own poor, under the persuasion that the officers who superintended such concerns would take the due means of protecting parishes from being imposed upon by false pretences. Had they equally mita- Toured to enact provisions by which work was to be found fur those witless to labour, far different results would have beets experienced. But, as he said be t fore, appalling as the distress of the present times were, he could net assent to the remedy proposed by Owen. He could not but shudder at the suppo lien of ca'ttly considering stick est sblishments, even to the number of twenty, as was stated in a former part of the discussion, where men were to be thus cqnereeated in the capacity of hired paupers—(lfearj Did this plan contemplate further ? Was it meant t condemn all who sought relief (roll momentary sof• tering—to fix them, by a species of substitution for the tendal system, to the soil for ever ? WAS it to be forgotten that in society rightly constituted, the poor man had as great a right to his labour as the rich to his property, for to the poor ni..n his labour was pro. perry ; and therefore that system was radically bad. where the people, both able and willing to work. were, from the want of employment, I.`t in a state of start atiow ? Why this want of employment ne• curred—what were the causes of this evil-where were 1 1 too many men not disposed to consider. But such disinctinattun ye as ruinous ; for the cause, the tree and undeni 'hie cause, presented itself a: a black pro. rninence, to avail which men might shut their eyes indeed, but only at the expense of running their heads against it—(Hear, hear).—No remedy.othen, could be efficient, but that which p assessed the power of controul over such causes—(!dear, bear) —which could prevent their repetit;un, and w !s efficacious enough to eradicate their influence—(llear. hear). — The present plan was at best but an expedient, even if unattended with danger wholly inadequate, but which he could not but consider as calculated to re. move evil partially, at the expense of ultimate ruin. Was it possible that men could be blind to that ulti • mate ruin ? These allotted villages were su ised to provide for a million of people. The consumption of that million was then to be withdrawn from the pro fits of society. Was this no evil ? Was it not un deniable, that every man who consumed and laboured conferred a benefit on society ? Yet of that benefit this plan, called an amelioration of distress, went to deprive the country. The society of nations vim• sifted of a great and comprehensive chain, the links of which were bound and binding, but whose con tinued conitection were necessary to produce the great and general design. He feared also, that it was of the nature of such systems to produce general indo lence as the result. The security of the means of subsistence was apt to.destroy the energies of human action; and while on that part of the subject, he never would subscribe to the picture of the demoralisation of what was called the lower classes of society which the address of Mr. Owen presumed. Granted that crimes. the effect of want and misery, occur. Yet Ire would call upon the"l to compare this supposed immorality with the conduct of those in the higher, nay in the highest rank of the State, and set where the greater crime prevailed ?—( H e ar, hear.) The majority of virtues at all event, he would contend,' remained with the humbler classes of the people. Where distress raged with such inveterate violence, weighed down as they were with an almost intolerable pressure, the admiration was, how so 'natty virtues and honest qualities were still prevalent amongst them. Shall we then, who by accident are alittle in worldly acquisition raised above them, look - with such an eye of severity at the results of their wretchedness ? Was this the return they had a right to expect 1 Have we not heard it admitted that the patience and loyalty, and devotion of the people of this country, during the sanguinary waeauf the last 25 years. was exemplary. who was it that evinced this patience and devoti.n whe has telt . the pressure of its results, and are now :wens under hi consequences ?—those very lower classes, now the object of gratuit sus reproach ! (Hear, hear.) It was pue crimes have been frequently consmi ted—the law was found operative tor their correction ; but. it WAS an.assuaiption wholly unjust to assert that the body of the people of this country was demoralized. It was beside objectionable to the plan that it went to increase the calls upon the pecu. niary difficulties of the nation. That could not be considered a reduction of expense which was to be effected by fresh expenses. It reaembltd the in fluence of the Sinking Fund in the payment of the National Debt, where we borroWed at an increased loss with one hand, to pay with the other. (Hear.), On the whole, the plan appeared founded on the overthrow of all those proud feelings of silt-reliance and estimation which io a sound and healthy state of things constitute the support of free States. It you would upheld the pre-eminent distinctions of your country, continue to support that character by which they were won, and by which alone they tan be maintained. On these grounds, he should feel it his duty to second the _Resolutions proposed as an amendment. . . Sir Ittertasn &rut. coincided in the objections ad duced against the practicability of Mr. Owen's plan. and thought that he who ventured to attack without hesitation all the preconceived opinions of mankind, could not feel hurt at such decided objections to his theory, willing as he (Sir Richard) was to admit that Mr. Owen was actuated by the purest and most praiseworthy motives. Dr. WALKER (one of the Society of Friends) said he feared the plan was impracticable. He could not, however, admit the fears which other persons in dulged in, of an mess in population, as we generally connived in this country, with wars and other means, to dispose of thefisands ; at all events, let social hap piness be not invaded until the evil was likely to ap proach. Let the rational being not be checked pre maturely; and if the excess occur, let the race of quadrupeds give way—(char. hear.) Mr. WAtrustam observed, that trom what had been already urged, and.from the lateness of the hour, he did not feel either the necessity or the inclination long to trespass upon the attention of the Meeting. although had be had an opportunity of presenting himselt to its notice at an earlier period of the discus. lion, he timid have thought it his duty to enter at some length into the merits of this interesting ques tion. With the opinions of two Gentlemen who had ably addressed the Meeting, he concurred in many points, regretting only, that they had omitted to ground those opinions ' upon the broad *lonal grounds which operated in his mind. When he came to the Meeting, in consequence of the public adver tisement by which it was collected, he expected to hear the plan of Mr. Owen fully stated and referred] to the examination of a Committee, but he was sur prised to hear nothing of definition or detail; but vague and general description of something extraor dinary that was to be expected from the construction of certain distinct societies s ylor the establishment of eich of which a subscription mutt be collected of no less than rBIOO,OOR He could, however, compre hend enough of the principle of this project, to feel that it was radically objectionable, and in opposition to thetighest interestsof soeiety,as well as to the best pas sions of the human heart. He could not there, re, con. sistently A ! %Via to such a principle, or pronounce the gent, r.l I Id,ment of m ink..id, .0 which it WAS host , le, so err. , ilb.4li the ignitor of the plan professed to think. He hoped, indeed, that the Meeting would pause be t , re it subscribed to the doctrine, that the wisdom of our ancestors was deserving of contempt, and that no existine sys'rm of political economy was entitled 1., respect, when opposed to the plan under discussion. to saying this he wished to be distinctly understood, tor he had the highest regard and deference for Mr. Owen. He concurred, indeed, most cordially in every panegyric that had been pronounced upon the character of that very meritorious individual. He agreed with that Gentleman that pauperism had most lamentably increased in this country, but that pauperism was not owing to the want of public in struction, but to the want of employment. Tile in crease of crime, too, was owing to the same cause; but what was the cause of all this evil ? for that was a question to which men most inevitably come, and the answer WAS obvious. He did not wish to obtrude colitics up-in the Meeting, but it was eel. dently impossible to separate politics from the object it was convened to consider, or to shut our eyes to the conviction that the great augmentation of distress and crime which we had at present to deplore was mainly owing to the great increase of Taxation (Hear, hear, hear). The plan of Mr. Owen was, no doubt, the fruit of a benevolent heart,. although, • in his view, of a mistaken mind. He (M r . Waith man) himself had b r ou g ht forward a plan for the Relief of the Poor about seventeen years ego, in support of which be published a Pamphlet.— This plan was to promote the incli,ture of common lands, with a view, as he meant, to benefit the poor. But what was the consequence In unJ case which came within his knowledge, in his own neighbour-' hood, about two thousand acres of common were soon afterwards indosed, but not one inch of this ground was given to the poor. For the portion of the common to which every poor man was entitled, was bought up for about twelve or thirteen pounds,, and the whole fell into the handa.ot the great Lind. owners. Thus the object of his plan was defeated, and the cottager was not put in possession of that little garden, which it was so very desirable that every cottager should hold for the growth of vegeta. bles to assist in the subsistence of his family. Of the comforts derivable from such a possession, he saw art impressive example in Staffordshire, which he had . . lately visited. There the cottager, having a garden to cultivate, occupied himself in that cultivation, in stead of resorting to the ale-house; and such, he be lieved, would be the consequence elsewhere, if every cottager were in possession e't a garden. Could it, then, in those circumstances, be matter of astonish ment that a poor cottager, who had no ground him self upon which to grow a turnip, should take a lea turnips out of the field of a rich neighbour ? Could that neighbour himself, or the public, be angry at such ais act ? But then the misfortune was, that when the cot tager thus acted, when once the moral boundary was broken, indifference to morality, and introduction to great crimes, was too likely to ensue. This, how ever, was the natural fruit of a vicious system. Bet the ohjece , if Mr. Owen was to ameliorate the condi tion' and character (*society. Could, however, such lt result be looked for from the adegiun of a plan which proposed to isolate a great body of the people exclude them from all the prizes which were held out to society at large to excite to exertion and industry ? Could any good consequences be expected from a plan which would operate to suppress the best motives of human action, and to extinguish the warmest feelings of the human heart, by shutting up the people in barracks—(Wear, hear) All that had been stated of this plan was exceptiinahle in the highes: degree. We were told that each society to be created by it. was to consist of 1200 persons, each el whom was to be allowed an acre or ground ; that the whole were to have but one kitchen, and that pa rents were not to have the care of their own children. Thus the best dispositions and the universal duty of man were to be dispensed with or dissolved, and the children of the pear provided for from the public fund. That some parents telt inclined so to provide for their children, was; no doubt, a melancholy tact, and that such an 'estimation did not belong to the poor 'so much as to the rich. was unfortunately too notori ous. Wear, hear. ) This, indeed, was manifest. from a case which he some tinie ago felt it his duty to bring before the public, where public schools institu ted for the benefit of the poor, were found to be prin cipally occupied by the children of men of high rank —by the children of Noblemen and Gentlemen. (Near, hear.) He recollected that when this case was brought before the Court of Chancery, an advocate on the other side observed, that those schools were become too goof for the po rr. Sit Samuel Rornilly very properly observed, that the question was. not whether such schools were become too good for the poor, but whether they actually belonged to them, ad ding, that the poor were as much entitled to the en joyment of their property as the rich. But such should be the language on all occasions, for the poor should always be encouraged to asset their rights.-- That encouragement, however. could nut exist, it the people were deprived of their manly spirit and love o indepmdence, and that was the tendency of the plan under consideration. Unhappily the system of the Poor Laws had dune much mischief iu this respect already, as he had himself witnessed. The inciease of pauperism accounted for this degradation of the spirit which once distinguished Englishmen. We had at present, it was known, no less than two millions out of the ten of which our population consisted, sup ported by the Poor's rate. There was anett,er great cause of regret in this country, namely, that while numbers of men in the vigour of life were destitute of employment. ,ehildren of a tender age were coo-. polled-to work From twelve to thirteen hours a day,• and thus so many miss able spectacles of eshausteil youth were to be found in England. This was an evil of such magnitude as to call loudly for some legislative enactment to prevent its continuance ur ex tension; and this enactment should apply also to the case of female children, several of whom, apprenticed to fancy dresai-mekers. were often compelled to work until .six o'clock on Sunday morning, in or• der to furnish dresses for the rich and the vain, a, .11,011 as to gratify the avarice of their employers.— But, to return to the plan of Mr. given —if that gen. tleman would fully state his views, and refer them te consideration of a- Comm:ftee, he should have no objectio ! to aff ird it fair pl y, a Jan ooporrimity for deliberate inquire, althott ! 1., be nom corgi's', th.t he had an almost insoperio.ie repognai.c.• to the principle of congreoatiii4 tnc p ople in bo r under GOD knows Altat sysaetn of soperintendence. Die he..evolent author of ras plan had, he under stood, done great good in his own district, where he had a I urge manufactory wider his personal suptriii iendence, but such a plan did not at all seem calcu lated for general adopt: ai or utility. Oa the con• ti ary,be could not help thinking it likely to Jo much mischief. As the professed object of thus plait was to p:ovide additional employment for the men, where was the guarantee that additional customers wou'd be round fur the additional produce of that employment? I his was an important question, which the Plan seemed to overlook ; and yet it was nom, intro that employment would not be wanted at any time if cut touters or a demand far the produce of that employ ment could be fun This was an indisp u t a bl e f a ct, as any politic.] could prove, as indeed WAS notorious to every aoricultoralist, manulactuter and mechanic in the country. Mr. Owen bad, he fearer'. overlooked the real CAUSE' of the public distress. The whole was mainly attributable to Taxation. He re membered that he had had so much to pay to the tything man, the property tax, the assessed tax, and the poor's rate, upon 1011 acres of land which he po.- sessed, he was obl.g e d t demand a high price f o r l o s corn, in order to secure something foe himself, and this went on pretty well while corn continued to rise. sut when the price of corn fell, while the taxes cot.. tintvd to increase, the has gatherer took every :]shift. This, indeed, was the ease of numbers throughout the country, and hence the general distress. As a great Statesman one observed, althou4h the country had afl :rid fare, it was sick at heart: Toe bead WAS in tact so bloated, AS to become too lope for the body. For, although we had at present the ,gtoaiest quantity of wealth in the coo:. y eves known, tics had still the grzatest degree and • severity of wretchedross and ti:oress. 13ot be would not no., go into these points, although he felt that the evils which afflicted us moist be ;oohed to the boaom.— Unless our trade rev.vtai—unless the state of the poor were improved, be was persuaded that neither Mr. Ow :11 1 . plan, nor any other plan, could afford any effectual relief. But with a proper disposition in the Parliament and the Administration—with the ado!). lion of those measures which a wise policy and a just economy suggested, be had no doubt that the t sob of the country might be remedied. (Hear, hear ) Mr. SHUTZ applauded the intentions lei air. Owen, but. objected to his plan. For whatever good itio6lit have resulted from the application of thi• Gentle man's plan in his own district, what assurance had we that similar good would arise elsewhere from si milar associations, unless Mr. Owen had the disone power of übiquity, or could delegate hit virtues and talents to others who might undertake the aupettnten dance of such associations. Mr. Owen's plan was nor, however, new, as a similar plat' was proposed about twenty years before the enactment of the 45d of Elizabeth --(iflaugh,and hear, Lear. j•—Much had been said upon this and other occasions, AS to the gr , at good occasioned by the modern improvements it: Agriculture. But where was the proof of this good to be found ? For sixty years previous to the reign of - his prei;e6t Majesty, when those hoAted improve. s a c n a d rcel a y i r in e-te ti n u th r of o ur period,rierpeutawteiorne nsen ti were paupers,began, only 160 inchourea, while, since that period, there were three thousand iiclosures, the relit o f land had trebled, and one-fifth of our p .pulation were in A state of pauperism. From this consideration, he was not very sanguine in calculating upon any scheme of improvement in agriculture, a, the weans of benefiting the poor. He had many objections to the plan under discussion, which be omit' not think at ail likely to relieve the people, to wooing, he was persuaded, that no good could be done, but by reduc. ing the public expenditure, and regulating the toes. Mr. HAMILTON supported Mr. Owen's plan, the funds for .tjic. rAblislintent of which might, he thought, beAt e lined by the sale of the Pours' Rates, upon the siroe principle as the Legislature had is. acted For tl>e redami,lon of the Land Tax The CHAIIINMS :tutu put the R. s .lutions offered as amendments by Mr. Hunt. He then took the of the- Meeting on each, and declared that they were negatived. IL: next put the first and second Resolutions of Mr. Owen, which were agreed to.— When Mr. Rowcrnft put the third Resolution, de claratory of the unexampled distress of the kingdom, he told the Meeting, that, in his opinsan, it ought not to be agreed to. Mr. WAITIIMAN thought it a most irregidor course of proceeding I ir the Ch tirmati to take i upon him to give any opinion of the kind. The company insisted on having the Resolution put, and it was carried almost unanimously. The fourth Resolution was then put and agreed to. The fifth Resolution. WAS read, and the ioilowing Amenalmcnt was moved by Mr. WAIIIIAIAN " That the present distresses of the Poor CPI he allevia.el only by a diminution of taxation, and by other legislative no A lums ut relief." A Gentleman from the lower p.m of the room said a few words, which the Chairman, for t:,e benefit of those wlto did n he. them, repeated, viz.—" That it was urged agaiaq Mr. Owen, that he meant to take every labourer it inl his own cottsge, and irn• more in his village. Tkatt was not the plan. Mr. Owen proposed only to give she:ter to those who had no homes of thcir own." Mr. HuNr.—" TU.: Chairman has totally and wil. fully misreprewnted what the GJntleman has said." CuAtituara.—“ M:. Hunt, you claretjot mike sash an us;eition outside this loom." Tne Amendment was then put, an.' on the spew of hands, the Chairman declared that the Amend ment was 105t41.1. Mr. WArranetst isirslAtied the greatest shew of hands was in its laSiourpandi demanded a division. Ttie two parties then iveswttb different sides of the room, oae ci ying out-1,0,04km and Charity !" th.e other— "li aithrttan and Liberty !" A I.mg time W4S (seen. pied in counting the heads. Thc attempt to aster. Laiq the precise numbers on either side completely ' tailed. The tellers were unable t•i r •pori, ..nd iii the confusion which ensued, the t.thles at the tipper end the room were occupied by the Chairman, and 4 crowd of those who had previously attenipteJ to di vide, and the papers intended for distribuiiim were trampled under toot. ft was in vain 014: Mr. Row. n. ed he ey nd le- m, tot rse im 3111 to. ng 5•1 tid of tat to Ir. ad Lw td- ids m, eu. er. ely the .nd 14 di- ere ).v•