Star. — London, England, 1822-05-03 00:00:00

enforced. lie alluded to the Bill for tegnl*ting the • office of Paymaster-General. Ht would appeal to the Pon. Gentlemen Who had supported the measure, could they with reason oppose a re duction , the prin ciple 0 1 which was then conceded ? He would take that opportunity of stating, with regard to the office .f Postmasters in Ireland, that if the present ques tion WAi carried the other would follow as a matter of course. Before he returned to attack the strong bold of the Gentlemen opposite, that of the influence of the Crown.—(Hear)—he would beg to say a few I words by way of appeal to those who seemed waver ing in their adhesion to the opposition of that doc trine. He trusted that they would not now shrink from the performance of their duty to the country, and that they would notbe betrayed into an approval of the wished-for influence, by any attempts to work upon their fears—( Hear, hear).—An Hon. Gentle titan opposite had strongly alluded to him in the last debate, hut he defied him, on the present occasion, to magnify him into the bugbear into which he had then classed him (Lord Normanby) as one of a trio. He would ILA the supporters of the reduction of the Lords of the Admiralty, if they wished to carry the extent of their savings to that of only 2,0001. a-year, would they vote for that reduction only, and oppose all others ? Ile put it to them, would it not. have been better to have carried this question in the first elan in the fitzh year? It must be eventually car ried ; the public voice had been fully expressed upon the subject, and would continue to demand it. The arguments and the conduct of some Ilon.Gentlemen resembled only the last shifts of old and ruined spend, minis, to maintain their acquaintance with those people who had been termed .‘ Gentlemen of another persuasion," and who were well versed in all the mysteries of X. Y. Z.—( Cheers and laughter).—He only asked them to forego the superfluous luxury— (Cize,,rsj—of a double Postmaster-General—( Hear, and a laugh).—He would ask if the influence of the Crown was not sufficiently supported? Was it not' strenOiened by an over grown establishment—by an immense national debt, and by our Colonial relations? hea)).—Those who would advance too far the influence of the Crown, only contributed to make the people jealous of the House, who seemed to pre serve a total apathy to their feelings, and were only careful to defend the least encroachment on the pri siiege of the Crown. The public discontent was rotorious; by skilful means its progress might be directed, but by stopping its course its power was aggravated and its extent enlarged. He trusted that t;ey would not, by the rejection of his motion, so detach from them the lingering affections of the people and their last confidence in the House—(Hear, hear).—He concluded by moving— " That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, re presenting that his Majesty's faithful Commons, relying on the gracious disposition of his Majesty (as expressed in his answers to former Addresses of that House), to concur in all such meal, sures as the exigencies of the times may require, and in such reductions in the civil departMents of the State, as may be con sistent with the due performance of the public service, humbly pray that his Majesty will be graciously pleased to give direc tions that the office of one of the Postmasters-General be abo-' lislied, and the salary of the office thereby saved to the Public." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he trusted the British Public would ever judge with caution of the proceedings of that House ; and that Parliament would pursue its course of propriety uninfluenced by any apprehension of public opinion. lie hoped that it would ever decide on a fair investi gation of each question, and not by an anxiety to secure mere popularity. He complained that appeals of that nature were too frequently brought before the House, and mixed up with many questions most un necessarily. Though the Noble Lord had, by vary ing the terms of his motion, complied with the regu lation of the House, it was not fair to bring before it, in the same Session, a question which had been dis posed of. If such a practice was to prevail, it would retard the business of the House, and interrupt the progress of the business essential to the country. — The Noble Lord had carefully abstained from enter-' ing into the actual merits of the question he had brought forward—(hear, hear).—He had avoided repeating the arguments which bad been advanced before, and which were so ably refuted—( hear, hear); and applied himself wholly to declamation on the in fluence of the Crown. Both the Postmasters-General were jointly responsible for the duties of their office. Be could not think it right to place under the con troul of one person an office which received two mil lions of gross revenue annually. However high the rank or the character of that individual might be, he could not agree to have such an office placed under his single controul. It was one of such extensive detail—he might say, such great machinery—that it resembled an immense manufactory. It could not be placed with security under a single authority. The question was before the Committee of 1797 s and they then rejected it. It was merely if the office should be intrusted to the care of four or five Gentlemen of in ferior rank, or to two Noblemen of high dignity ? He considered there were many sound reasons to pre fer the present arrangement. The question at that moment could not be decided without peculiar incon venience, as there was an inquiry now in progress into all the details of the business of the Post Office. When the result 'was laid heft), e the House -they would have a much better opportunity of judging on the question than at present. The subject had en gaged the peculiar attention of the Treasury. He trusted that they would not undertake to decide the question until that information was laid before them. Mr. BANK ES said that the examination alluded to could only affect the question of the details of the Post-office, and nat the management of the highest department. The Committee of 1797 had referred it to the House to put the Office under the controul of a Board similar to the Boards of other depart tnents. Lord Colchester had• presided at that Com mittee. From the experience he had of the manner in which the business was conducted, he would be 'sorry to see it put into a more expensive mode, which he considered that of a Board would be. lie kit that a considerable saving might be made in the prin ciple of the department by carrying the present mo tion. lie was not favourable to the joint responsibi lity of this office, or that of any other. He recol lected the case of two persons who were employed, in a joint trust as minor storekeepers. One of them became ill , the other was intrusted with the key; he rt;ht;esi the till, and ran away with the money— (Load citNas and laughing).--He was very far indeed from to either of the Noble Lords the of such an accident—(hcar, hear).--He only alluded to that case to spew how absurd the idea of et ry re • • . . . this Joint responsibility set,. that case the same principle as , of 1812 and 1813, which regulated Paymaster•Generth Thoog10" President of the Board of Cornrow he saw the present President, in 1813, when he had the honour tion that all sinecure offices He recollectea to have had then the Right Honourable the Chancellor chequer, and of the Commissioner Forests (Mr. Huskisson).—Now Mernbet who then voted for office not detrimental to the oppose the motion of the Nobi Why should they alter their opii in the circumstances of the should make them shrink from a ddty which they then thought imperative, or whether the finances of the country had since become so prosperous as to ren der any diminution of the expenditure unnecessary? If it were then admitted that the expenses of the civil ; Government of the country, ar.d the number of per sons employed, should be reduced as low as pos . lible (which he believed was the substance of his motion), he did not know anything that occurred since that period which ought to prevent the same decision now, and on that principle was the present motion entitled to - the support of-that House. The abolition of one of these offices of Postmaster-General would by no means contravene the motion which had been made last year. If the House did not wish to afford an argument for Reform—if they wished to shew that Parliament was adequate, in its present constitution, to the performance of its function's, and that it was disposed to sympathize with the People, he did not know an instance in which they'had a better oppor tunity, than by voting for the reduction of the office. —ln expressing a sincere wish that all sinecures should be abolished, he recollected having been asked by a Gentleman what sinecures remained after the re ductions that had taken place ? and he replied, this office of Postmaster-General only. Ile knew that it had been maintained that no offiCe should be abo lished because the infleence of the Crown in that House ought to be upheld; but to such a principle he could not give his assent. Even if such a prin ciple were maintained, there was no office which could be abolished with less detriment to the Crown than the office of Postmaster-General. Ileheartily re commended the consideration of this question to the House. It was, in his opinion, utterly impossible to defend it, if Parliament shewed any disposition to adopt a principle of sound economy or a conciliating ' spirit. Thus thinking, he advocated the abolition of this office, and he entreated any of those Members who voted with him in 1812 and 1813 to vote with him on the present occasion. Mr. HUSKISSON rose in consequence of the al lusion which had been made to him and a Right Hon. Friend of his who was then absent from indis position. His Right Hon. Friend was present when the question was last before the House, and he re gretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman had not then offered what he had to say on this subject, as his Hon. Friend would have vindicated better than he could hope to do, the vote which he had given against the motion of the Noble Lord. Whatever imputa tion might be against him (Mr. Huskisson) for changing his conduct now, seeing that he was one of the Ministers of the Crown, would not apply to his' Right Hon. Friend, and on that account he regretted' that he had not been called upon when the motion was last before them, to explain why he had with held from it that support which he had not thought it right to give. He must beg to fill up the history of the measures which had been named with some particulars at which the Right Hon. Gentleman had stopped short. The Right Ho% Gentleman had la boured for some years to abolish sinecures and enable the Crown to recompense meritorious service in other ways. Having failed in 1812 and 1813, he in 1817 was so fortunate as to succeed in a great measure in accomplishing the object which he had in view. But it was then determined by the Committee which sat on this subject that the situation of Postmaster-Gene ral was not one of those which ought to be aim- Ilished. He had understood the Right Honourable Gentleman to be satisfied, or nearly so, with the Bill which then passed, and he considered the ar ' rangement then made to be binding on both parties. The office in question was not inadvertently passed over, but it had been left as one which ought to re-' main in the hands of the Crown to reward public men. He did not mean to argue that the Right Hon. Gentleman and the House were by that arrangeMent precluded froth dealing with the situation as they might think proper; but this he contended, that those who had favoured the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman in 1812 and 1813, might change their course after the arrangement of 1817, without being justly liable to be charged with inconsistency. He proceeded to shew the utility of dividing the duty of the Postmaster-General's office between two respon sible individuals, but stated that measures had been taken, pursuant to the Address of that House at the close of the last Session, to investigate the affairs of the Post Office, in common with the other depart ments of the Government. He thought to commit this subject to a Parliamentary inquiry, must be satisfactory to the House, and in this way they would best follow up the Address which had been voted.— He therefore hoped the House would not so far de part from the spirit of that Address, as to agree with the present motion. The course which he had de fended, lie insisted, was most in conformity with the Address of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and it was because he preferred following that - Right Hon. Gen tleman to following the Noble Lord, that he opposed the present motion. Sir J. SEBRIGHT said he thought the line of ar gument pursued that night was more insulting and degrading to the House than any discussion wnich lie recollected since he sat as a Member of Parliament. Ile should be the last man in the House to diminish the just iniiaence of the Crown; but he really thought that the introduction of a reference to it, on the pre-, sent occasion, tended to degrade the higher classes, of political people. To say that the offices of Post master-General were necessary to support the great lidluence of the Crown, was, in other words, to say, that some Peers (for the places were always held by Peers), with great !listen ical names, of which the country had reason to be proud, required 3,0001., a-year to do their duty to their Sovereign and coun try—(Year, hear).—lu this way, as well as a question people,and who had travelled in all directions to spread disaffection. and endeavoured to prevail on those who attended them to give such instructions to their Representatives as should send them bound hand and foot into that House. When Parliament met, the effects of this were but too apparent. Every day' notices were given for the repeal of this, that, and 'tother tax. On one day it was moved that two Lords of the Admiralty should be done away with ; on the next, that the situation of one of the Postmasters-Ge- neral.should be abolished ; so that it appeared to him a general attack was about to be made on the finances and institutions of the country. It was not at such a time that he would give any vote but that which be 'had given, and now proposed to give. He, however, begged to say,. that should he again meet the Right Hon. Gentleman in a Committee like that in which he (Mr. Bankes) had paid him the compliment of saying he had zealously laboured in order to relieve 'the country, he would find him as ardent and sincere in the cause as ever. He should vote this night as he had done before, and he should not do so with less satisfaction because he knew it to be the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in some way or other to put this department in the way of revision. Mr. H. BRIGHT totally differed from the last speaker, and thought the House fully as competent jo decide on this question as any Parliamentary Com mission could be. Mr. TREMAYNE spolti in support of the motion. Mr. S. WORTLEY said, when this subject was last before the House, he did not find himself at liberty to deal with it as'a simple question, whether or not one of the Postmasters-General should be removed. —The day before a motion had been carried for re moving certain public officers, and on the succeeding day a mmion was to be made against the whole body of another establishment. He saw that a great delu sion prevailed, and knowing that such measures could not in the slightest degree remove the existing dis tress, he had hesitated to give his support to the motion; and he rejoiced that he had not been drawn away to vote for it at the moment. He thought it to be necessary that the Crown should exercise consi derable influence in that House. He did not wish it to possess more than it ought to exercise; but, at the same time, he did not desire to strip it of this attri bute. Now he felt himself at liberty to view the question as a single one, and he was of opinion that they might be justified in giving way to the extent to which the motion proposed to go. They were blind indeed who did not see that the great body of the people had been disabUsed. Nobody believed that such a motion could relieve the existing distress.— Looking at it as a single question, he was not satis fied with the defence of the office which had been set up by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and therefore he was ready to vote for its abolition. If, however, it was proposed to refer the subject to a Parliamen tary Commission, it might be well that the House should wait for the inquiry ; but if the question were now pressed aye" or no," whether there should be one or two Postmasters-General, he should say 4 , aye" for the present motion. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had heard nothing in the course of the present debate to alter the view which he had formerly taken of this subject. He considered the office to be one which, both in a financial and political point of view, it was desirable to keep up. It was, however, for the House to de cide on this with reference to the opinion of an indi vidual. He shewed that the inquiries which had taken place in former years, had led to results favourable to retaining two Postmasters-General. In 1817, the final decision of the Committee which then sat was, that this office was not one which ought to be re garded as a sinecure. The recommendation con tained in the Address of last Session had been already acted upon as far as it could be acted upon by a Treasury minute, and further inquiry was intended. The Hon. Member for Yorkshire admitted it to be ne cessary that the Crown should exercise some influence in that House. But how he came to the conclusion that that influence, which he regarded as desirable and necessary, that patronage of the Crown, which he thought necessary when the subject was last before the House ' less required support now than it did then ; and why those considerations which influenced Li. manly vote on that occasion, should now cease to operate on his mind he was wholly at a loss to con jecture. He begged that the House would allow him to call its attention to the strict situation of the question. He requested that they would look at the words of the Address to the Crown of last Ses sion, to which his Honourable Friend ought certainly • to owe some deference, as it was his own Address.— It prayed, 66 That his Majesty would be most gra ciously pleased to direct a minute investigation into the mode of managing and collecting the several branches of the Revenue." The Treasury had done this, and Parliamentary Commissioners had been ap pointed to make the specified investigations. lie would ask, then, was his Honourable Friend, or was the Parliament, prepared to contend that the Post masters-General should be reduced, without first ascertaining the opinion of the Commissioners as to their necessity or utility? If they were not acting In the mere spirit of the day, without giving consi deration to the acts they proposed to do—if their ob ject was fairly to weigh - whetber one or two Post masters General were necessary, they would leave it to the Parliamentary Commissioners first to give them information upon that point. Here, indeed, he wished to join issue with his Honourable Friend, the Member for Yorkshire, but he could not take the issue which he had proposed. He was perfectly pre pared to pledge himself that the office should come, l with as little delay as possible, before the attention of the Commissioners. He therefore thought that his gi\ their support of the Government on all occasions, whether right or wrong (Near, hear).—The`teiti. ments of the Right Hon. President of the Board of Controul (Mr. Wynn) had totally changed with the , side of the House on which be had 'been accustomed to vote, and, from that change of sentiments, it- was • for the House to judge whether he had accepted I office, because he agreed with Government; or *be tber he agreed with Government because he had cc. cepted office—(Hear, hear).—He should support the elation, because he felt it peculiarly incumbent upon the House, in the present times, to be careful of its character, and to endeavour, by all just and honour 'able means, to secure the respect and affection of the People. Sir F. BLAKE thought, that if the House really understood the true state of the country; they would carry every motion for retrenchment by acclamation. His Majesty's Ministers were not willing to give the Hon. Member for Montrose his due share of credit ; but in his (Sir F. Blake's) opinion, that Hon. Mem ber had done more good for the country than all his Majesty's Ministers put together--(Hear, hear}.--He should therefore say to that Honourable Member (Mr. Hume), "Go on, and prosper!" He cordially sup ported the present motion. Mr. R. MARTIN condemned the conduct of the Opposition, which, he contended, was rather dic tated by a desire to annoy the Government, than by any consideration of the abstract merits of the ques tion. He did think the admonition of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be a most fair one, when he told Gentlemen, that if they voted honestly and fairly, according to their conscience, they need not be afraid to meet their constituents at any time. He, for one, was not afraid to meet his; and it was a proud thing, that•out of the hundred Members sent from Ireland, very few were found to run from their decks in the hour of danger, and, like some Honour able Members, to leave their quarters and get under the hatchways—(A laugh).—He called upon the Hon. Member for Yorkshire to rally his impaired faculties, and to stick to his quarters manfully ; and if he should be placarded fur voting for two Postmasters-General, he would be his second —(Laughter). Mr. MACDONALD congratulated his Noble Friend (Lord Normanby) on his having returned to the charge with a spirit, perseverance, and talent, which augured well for his public character. Now that the King's Ministers had had leisure for reflec tion, and an opportunity of collecting the opinion of their country friends, he had felt some curiosity to see what new shifting course they would adopt; and that curiosity had been amply gratified by the. turn which the debate had taken to-night. With the ex ception of the Member for Surrey, he believed there was not a single unofficial person who had ventured to stand up in his place and justify the vote which he intended to give against the motion. The tone of the Noble Lord (Londonderry) was indeed consider ably subdued, quantum mutatus ab ilia Hedore ! Where was now his high tone? How had the mighty fallen since the last debate on this question! Humble and beaten, and retiring from his former ground, this mighty champion of the influence of the Crown, who had once declared, that without this office it would be impossible to carry on the Governineut of the country, was now ready to refer to certain Com • missioners a question which had been already twice decided in that House. It bud been said that the office was a part of the necessary patronage of the Crown, and therefore, ought not to be touched, but it was for the House to determine whether that argu ment ought to have weight with them. He would appeal to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Robin son), who had made so strong an appeal on a former occasion, in favour of the inferior clerks of his own department, whether he could stand up in his place and say, that a second Postmaster-General was ne cessary ? whether he could say to those clerks, that they must be sent adrift, but that a duplicate Post master-General must be retained ? He wished also to know from the Noble Marquis (Londonderry) what he meant by a very favourite phrase, which he had used upon that and many other occasions, " a well understood economy," it reminded him of what Hu dibras said of pain— " Simply, 'tis not bad nor good, But merely as 'tis understood !" The Hon. Member then entered into a statement to slew the various sources of influence possessed by the Crown, and concluded with cautioning the ['souse - against giving their sanction to the continuance of unnecessary places, with a view toe:tend that influence. Mr. MONEY contended, that the second Postmas ter was not a sinecure. He knew, that in the course of last year no less than two thousand Reports were referred to the Postmasters, which must have been read ; and it was equally true, that not a single dis bursement could take place without a warrant from the Postmasteas-General. When he considered also the enormous patronage of the establishment- (Hear, hear, and laughter)—he could not think it right that it should rest in the hands of one person. Lord A. HAMILTON wished to ask the Hoe. Gentleman one question, namely, for what length of time one of the Post masters, he meant Lord Clancarty, had.been absent horn the country? Ile bilieved that he was away about two years, aril this was a complete answer to the Hon. Gentleman's speech— (Loud cries of I.luestion ! question!) Mr. MONEY was proceeding to speak again, but Was pre vented by cries of "spoke ! spoke !" Mr. MA NSFIELD said he would rather give ,E 10,060 a-year to two such persons as now filled the office, than 411,00 to one! • (Laughter, and cries of Question !") Lord NORMANDY said a f.ny words in reply. The House then divided, when the numbers wero-i-• For the liodon - - - - tot 216 Against it and then edr anno unc eme n tnse d g prolon g ed e r i antie t r Y in a g u th g .L e -itibl i sit l i o n M : se ai e 7l°i o a stri d th erl i t oil e Y r r W o ae rt r ed de r a - rs ece n oliTfvwedtn.he:wiDalitil:yaowb)celrel - --1 1 11111--- . • , V ;.'. • • .. . . , . -,.... . * • • • • ' . . . . . ~ 1 r jv , • t. ••. .3t.... 1• 7. .2,..'r;', - i'ir m rb...`Z':-! 4r " .:• • • , . • Ottriail We should admit it of eamiipp, d it oa st I r e istammeloisereftwowsi lion &tea, up& 'MIAOW shewilig; ought to -. s that Of the Committee To spolikaho the ,places now arrus t litt.. nievoihan to ' UM* SISINVIVS• motion. Hetittsted the Homo would elated the office of the put into the estimates, the SUMS necessary to purr feel that inieferring.this mishit' to the Parliamentary . ihe did not see the late chase hits --(Heir, hear). Commissioners, the Ministers meant, as far as they itroul in the House, yet Mr. HAUMNER was flattered by the manner in could, to 10•41, effect m ti te Wi s h,/ o f. P ar li ament . whose support he had which he hid been mentioned by Right Hon: They 'ought tn. wait fo r tlpe RepOrt or the Cpnsmis- now of making a mo- Gentlemen- He had formerly voted for the. Bill of sinners, and then, and not till then, could they con- should be abashed.— that Right Hon. Gentl emen , but the vote which he sistently arrive at adidecision upon the'cpiestian. hen also the support of had given on a recent occasion was founded, as was Mr. WILBERPORCE expressed his surprise that Chancellor of the Ex- that which be should give that night, on the observa , his Majesty's Government 'drool(' have arnwedthat ioner of the Woods and tions he had made on the state of the country. They the retention of the present office was necessary for w he asked why any all knew that, in Consequence of thee existing agricul- the purpose of augmenting the influence of the Omen. r the abolition of any tural distress, Meetings had been, called in almost all, The influence of the Crown meant, in fact;something public service , should parts of the count r y, at w hi c h i t was notor i ous t h e w hi c h wou ld b e ca ll e d by a muc h coarser name in lble Lord ?—(Henr).— subject of such Meetings had but seldom been entered places where plainer language was used than was )inion of what occurred upon. There were those wh6 knew that in times of usually employed in that House. There could be no country 'since, which distress the greatest impression might be made on the doubt that offices were given to Gentlemen to wire amens •1...:. .•• new... "se ..);.. h..........,...• ;it ........._:___ ,m 2 draw whieh their neoole.and who harltravelleA in ullrlireetinnern