Star. — London, England, 1810-03-29 00:00:00

incT to the or-ans of the late Mr. Yorke—(he begiatt t ardon) of th • late Member for Cambridgeshire.— l'his was tlic "egicy bequeathed to that House by the 7'c Ser ef the ; Exchequer—(l-4an, Near.) That Right lion. Gcrideriia . n had made a complaint against. John Gale kites, who'made a respectful apology at the bat (.Ven ) As he *as informed, that person n u n conducted himself with decorum at the bar, and on th it ground it was his opinion at the time that he she . ' he discharged. Every thing that had since been done on the subject tended, step by step, to mi ne Jones a• greater personage than he could other wne have hoped to becomee, was not his intention then to give any opinion as to the right of the House to commit for contempt ; that opinion he had before stated, and it was not necessary for him •to repeat.— He begged here to return to what he had been drawn off from longer than he had.. intended = .the allusions of the Honourable Gentleman, Mr. Lethbridge, to combinations in that House. The Hopemenble Mem ber had said, that on hearing certain statements in that House, he was so affected, that his hair stood on end.—(4 laugh.) Now that the House knew that he had the gift of language, though indeed he had heard that Hon. G entleman before make a motion respect. ing double barrelled guns (a laugh), he trusted that he would not remain silent ; but when he became sen sible of this visible effect, suffer his moral to overcome his physicakimpfessions, and move that the terrify ing words be taken down Linen) It would cer tainly he on every account desirable that he should not suffer the agitating words to remain in obli vion for three weeks, and then the • unfortunate ut terer of them become the object of another charge, by bringing them in judgment against him. (Ave, hear.) He should appeal to that Bench of Lawyers whom he saw before him—(a laugh), whether such a practice would be allowed in any Court of Justice n. whether, on a trial for one offence, it would he tole rated to give in evidence a previous act which had never been questioned ? He was bold enough to dif fer from the Honourable Baronet, though he had not read his statement. He had heard the speech of that Honourable Baronet with attention, but without be ing convinced. That speech appeared to him an able one, but the fault he found with it was, that it would not, if agreed to, advance the object of the Hon. Baronet one step. He also found fault- with his hiv ing published in his argument any thing which he had not stated in his speech, when he brought for ward his proposition. It would have been matter of surprise if his Noble Friend (Lord Porchester) had not brought forward any motion calculated to pro mote the objects stated in his able speech, on the pro p-sing the resolutions founded on the late investiga. ton. Another complaint lie had to make against the Hon. Baronet, was that when he published his Letter and Argument, he professed to publish the substance of his speech. He had read the letter, and thought that there was nothing in it which any country Mem ber might not have addressed to his constituents. Having read the letter, he put the argument in his picket, supposing it to he the same as the speech which he had heard. On coming down to the Heise, however, he was informed that a notice had been given of the motion by the Honourable Mem be. When he heard this, he thought that the matter wonl3 soon be over, as he did not think there was any thing exceptiOnable in the speech. But he was afterwards informed that there were many things' in the argument Which were not in the speech ; and it was upon the ground that he was not prepared to give an opinion dpon any one of these new passages, ' that he whhed for the adjournment of the discussion.' It was impossible to say that any one passage was a libel, without Considering the whole, and ascertaining how each might be explained or modified by the con- 1 text or ether passages iir the paper. That he should do, if allowecitime to consider the paper ; but if not, he should not be'driven to - nne for the Resolutions of the Hon. Gentleman. As a Juryman, and he look - ed upon the House as,in that instance called upon to per form the functions of Jurymen, he should, in CASt of any deubt,fcel himself bound to pronounce the party innocent. Others were no doubt in- the same situation with him ; and he had-no hesitation in saying, that any Hon. Member who felt a doubt upon the subject, was hoimltosay notgnilfY. What detriment, he would ask, mid result from agreeing to the adjournment of flits discinsien ? All Gentlemen were not so highly gifted as net Right Hon. Gentleman, to comprehend the details of nvo important subjects aronce. They had not, as that Right Hon. Gentleman seemed to intaN cells in their brains for the reception of dif fcent kinds of evidence, nor that constitution of intellect, which enabled him to cast shades over one deeeptien of evidence, whilst he applied his atten tion to another ; and then to withdraw these shades at will, for the purpose of proceeding to the consfele ream ef the temporarily secluded subjects. When Ilieht Honounthle Gentleman therefore called the I louse, not possessing the same advantages Leith himself, to divide their attention between two qncsnons, he was doing an injury to the House, to tech individual in the House, and to the nation. Jut ehatever effect the Right Honourable Gentleman might have expected from this interruption, he trust ed In would be disappointed, as well within as with. ont the walls of that House. He might suppose that the public would be distracted by this question from paring the same attent i on w hi ch i t would otherw i se do t the question in which he was so deeply and. perso nally interested. But the public he believed to be too wise to give into that delusion. The Right Hon. Gentlema n would g rin but a short respite before the decision s h ou ld be pronounced upon him. The Hon Baronet had claims on the House not to proceed preci pitately in this question. The House of Commons, wnose rights and privileges were interested no less than the freed om o F the people in t he decision, had L_ Claims . upon that House to p rocee d ca l m ly an d deli berately, not rashly and precipitately, When the Ho- Nimble Baronet had made his motion for the libe ratim of Jones, he was not convinced by his speech, but had voted for the discharge of Jones, because his Previous confinement appeared sufficient punishment, because his offence was light, and because he had , cr) pclocted himself respectfully, when at the Bar of that House. He did not mean to detain the House' I " n gnn as he should not go into any argument as to tie right which had been questioned. He was sure, if t 'e nieht l iouse o t? . Was not con s i s t ent w i t h l aw , t h at t h e i t ; but if f t;nrnmons was too liber a l not to reli nqu i s h on the contrary the right was legal, that 41-11:stu;e_z_ould .alway s be bold enoug h to m ain t a i n i ts 6 vs and privileges. eaPtain YORK!, unaeotitterneel had bessi inefi tite louse was called tipOn to addreir that - House, kill "did not think it would to decide on so impdrtant a question ? figd the require lunch ability to . refute 'the arguments Of the Honi'CrentleMan opposite (Mr. Cioker) Oactited as Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down s and who long as he h a d i n a C ourt o f equ i ty , he would have had so freely criticised the conduct of every Member known before now the danger. unending rashness in whom he had thought fit to advert...to. The Hon. proceedings, and would, no doubt, tln this °tea- Gentleman, amongst other criticisms, had alluded to sion, have availed himself of the salutary lesson.— a legacy which had been bequeathed to that House Sir Francis Burdett was charged as not guilty 4a• by the late Member for Cambridgeshire. He could' breach of privilege oely, but of a gross and scanda assure that Hon. Gentleman, that whatever-legacy lous libel. Had the House power, admitting the • was bequeathed -by the late Member for Cambridge- matter to be libelous, toConthrul individuals respec shire, would be remem b ere d w i t h respect b y t h at t i ng the right of discuising constitutional questions House. Certain he was, that it must be as .good Possibly there Were passages which niight be libel- . 1 as any that proceeded from a brewer of bad porter. lous ; and yet, GOD fordid, that plain and serious [Here a general cry of Order, order, Chair, Chair, argument should not be authorized on great and continued for some minutes; several Members on the grave constitutional questions, Passages might be -Otiposition benches at th e same t i me stan di ng up i n o ff ens i ve, when they were not, fairly speaking, 'libel- 1 their places to speak to order.] lous. Seeing Gentlemen opposite tr; him better qua- Mr. WHITBREAD— , 4 I can deem Myself affec- lified than himself on points of this kind, he should ted but one way by the expressions of the Hon Mem- be happy to receive some lessons from them (laughter.) ber who has just spoken, and that is as a tradesman, Why was strong language. to be nice? No argument by being held out as a brewer of bad porter."— was before the House ; and even the passage where ( Hear, hear, for a considera&le lime.)—" I have only to the Honourable Baronet wrote of their lording it hope, as the Hon. Gentleman who has conceived so over King and people, was, if he must say truth, bad an opinion of me as a tradesman, and thinks that and perhaps offend him, nonsense. When had. the ' I have So far deviated from the precepts and example House so acted ? Even the passage referring to the of my father, that he would do me the honour to buy election of representatives, which it was not necessary a cask of my porter, and I will sell him the best, 'that to recite, required an inuendo to explain it. Called all the voters of the Teller of the Exchequer may to - vote the production to be libellous, it became the drink his health"—(Hear, hear, Chair, chair Chair.), House to deliberate with seriousness; to recollect that*, Mr. SPEAKER—" The Hon. Member is in pos- the accused was absent, contrary to all rules of juris session of the House; to proceed 'on the question, I prudedce, and that mature time was required in order unless some Hon. Member speaks to order." to consider what was proper-to be determined. Con 'Lord MILTON spoke to order, and expressed a sidering the recent sittings of House, was there desire of taking down the words of the Hon. Member, time for t!le due investigation of the present corn " No, no, no," pretty generally from all quarters. plaint ? Reflecting on-all -the bearings of the roe.. Mr. WHITBREAD," I wish; as I am sure "I Zion, he intist,- for one, deprecate a premature exhibi feel perfect good humour on this subject; and the tion of courag e in this way; pro cee di ng - w i t h out i n - Hon. Gentleman, as I perceive by his count enance , (piling, and determining without ascertaining. is restored to tranquillity, the House would not-call • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER' for my apolo.gy ; I require none on this occasion"— agreed with his Hon. Friend under the gallery (Mr. 4.fieter,..hear, hear.) Owen) ; but was sorry to perceive that a Le arne d an d Mr. CROKER complimented the Hon. _Gentle- Hon. M em b er (Si r S. R.omilly) had started doubts on Man on the manly manner in which he received the the question. ad the House acted in 'opposition to sarcasm, which he thdright tobe unjustifiable ; though the 811 of Rights T Every one seemed agreed as to mini of the observations which fell from himself on the importance of the present question. Some Gentle the subject cf debate, he - conceived to be as pointed men thought Walcheren more 'important than the. ras the sarcasm which was just used. The depository inquiry of this night ; but he would ask, whether a of the legislative power was arrested in the execution question affecting Ministers, or one implicating the of its rights. The Hon. Baronet was well aware lie Commens—he would ask, which of the two was more dared not utter one setitence on his legs here of what important ? Procrastin,ation of inquiry had been he afterwards published as argument. The present prated to Ministers. Where waS' the object of it ? Ho. discussion is, whether we shall in 1810 give op thelnourableGentlemen mii'.t t:lre the purposes r...f right of exercising the privil eg e s of our ancestors— . clamation, and in the absence of all arguinent; of mi. (No, no, from the Opposition.). .1-1 1 v persisted in saying, nisterial management with the view of postponing the' ' such was the nature of the question. Could the Ho- discussion of the Expedition to Walcheren, 'as if he nourable Baronet doubt the authority of the House felt the halter about his neck, and was begging a day's to commit strangers for contempt, which he, had at-{ , reprieve : yet, wishing no delay, he still looked to the tempted to prove in language not only inconclusive, issue of - that discussion with the greatest anxiety, becau :e he anticipated it with 'th e greatest con but of a had taste—(A laugh.)—Would not you, Sir , (addressing himself to the Speaker) who have ever deuce.-- (Hear, hear.)—He had no wish to stay its filled that Chair with manly dignity, interpose your course ; for the more it was sifted, the' better would . authority if such expressions, which I shall now read, turn out to have been the conduct of those who were uttered het*, expressions aiming at and insult-. planned it. He, therefore, asked fer no time, 'nor ing the dignity of this House and that Chair ? did he ask for time when charged with the selling of " Let this instrument:this thing, sui rtcria, be contrasted with places ; nor-did the Honour a ble B aronet now seem the description above given of the properties of a lawful warrant. to ask for time: Surely the House had time enough, Does it nor evidently appear that this piece of unsealed paper, to signed by the Speaker, by which an untried subject has been out- even this morning, have read the libel ous pub !awed, bears no feature of legality ?" lication, so as to have ascertained • its- nature; Both If such were his expressions here, he repeated it its matter and manner was, he would say, as libel-, _" - puld be the duty of that Chair to have called the lons as they could conceive t he m to be. Itepresenta:. on. Baronet to order. Is this libel so obscure and tives might speak in that riOuse what they could doubtful, as that it should be adjourned over ? No ; not write to their Constituents: Sir Francis Burdett argument the - Honourable Baronet had left aside, and called on his Constituents to resist the House ; yet launched at once into a libel on the House of Corn- this not in, or from that House. And what was that . mons ; a libel monstrous in itself', and made up of call ? Adverting to what he was pleased to denomi-, vituperated language : nate the assumed prero:vativcs of that Heusc, he des `' Inflated with their high-blown fancied ideas of Majesty, and cribed an Omer of the fimise as counteracting, if not tricked out in the trappings of Royalty." . . superseding, our Magna Charta ! Here he would What can the H. Baronet mean by this. He read the paragraph of Sir Francis to his Constituents, knew of no trappings btu the mace on the table ; and be •• It is now time to resist the O r d er o f t h e did he arraign this ? He should conclude, he said, by House of Cornmo - us." Would it be said, that this , reading another passage— resistance consisted in arg omen[. But, Sir Francis'l " One cannot with ouch impressions in one's .mind, help en- t tertaining a fear that, the Gentlemen cit . the liotige Conmions says, that the House o Commons has disp e n s ed may in One, unless they%fevert to , the - great princip . :es of the With the Liw ; as " if Magria Charta, and all th e Co.istittltion, be in danger of incurring the sentence nt St. Paul ,wholesome laws of England be a dead letter," upon the insolent and tyntlntisal High Priest, who commanded nt - c ..—(L raid ~'Coors.) —'t To these laws the i n di v i- " him to he struck for opening his mouth in his own defence , — dual now imprisoned, Jie adds, •• has, through " Gon shall smite the thou ithited wall: for sitttst thou to judge "me after the law,. and coiumandest me to be smitten contrary me, applied for redress in vain. Th ose w h o h ave to trw r imprisoned him have refu.ed to listen to my voice ; " - . What does:the Hon. Minuet mean by 4!.revert ;" can it be et"piaineif?. : If cgiticism. could turnaside the sting of the libel, the.adjournment of a week would not be sußicient ihr the purpose.. • Sir'SAMUEI.. ROMILLY thought it incumbent - On - the House, and sonsistent with the tespect it owed its own character, to proceed-With calm' and atie de . liberation. They erete not to forget that they were. placed in a still more delicate situation, by being .judges in their cause, and-that tu•that. two•foLd cha racter they joiued-that otacettfer . f.also. He owned that when reverting to.aheprinciples.Of natural jus tice, and to those of the las) , to which he had been brought up, he felt - cariiide?able danbti on his mind as to the question They were called upon to decide; and if he was pressed to vote while in that state of liuspente, be should certainly feelbimself bound, by all the prin ciples of English layv and of equity, to vote for an ac quittal, as isluryWouldilo in asimilar case. HeWished, besides, to see all hostile feelings banished from a discussion of this kind, and notiting, he was sum, could tend. more to facilitate that desirable object than an adjournment, which would reve all the angry passions a sufficient time to cool. A great deal had been said about the dignity of that House, and no man had for it a greater regard or a greatet respect ; - but ho could not see how it could be com promised by the required delay. He owned that he was not . endowed with the courage of some other Members ; when s he considered the aspersions lately thrown out against this House by -individuals in as semblies and in meetings, he could not help feeling apprehensive of entering into a contest, in which the privileges of this House were on one side, and the opinion of the people on the other. If Gentlemen themselves, who now seem so anxious for an immedi ; ate decision, were to consider the case attentively, and consult their own bosoms, they would find that I they sill wanted much information, to come to 4 conscientious decision. As to his own part, he had rireard indeed some few observations, but no legal comments, no application of the doctrine of libels to the obnoxious address. .He had even remarked, that 1 some of the m ist strenuous advocates for an imme diate decision had strangely misunderstood and mis- I quoted some of the passages. Was it, he would ask, your voice may come with more force, may command greater respect,"-atc. &c. What was the, meaning of all this ? Read on.--" It was the same great prin ciple," continues Sir Francis Burdett, " which was again attacked by Charles I. in the measure of Ship Money, when again the People of England, and an uncorrupted House of Commons, renewed the con test• A—a contest which ended in the imprisonment, the trial, the condemnation, and the erectition of that ill; advised King."—(Here the criet of hear, hear, were loud and long.)--Sir Francis Burdett now called on his constituents to'resist grim-visaged prerogative ;" for why were they to " be afraid to enter the lists with undefined-privilege, assuming.the powers of pre rogative ?" Language of this . kind tended only to bring the House. into contempt ; nothing more libel , loos could be p s cnneci; and, .if so, would an adjourn niznt for a week remove the fact of--libek Honourable Friend (Sir Samuel Romilly) did not seem to know what was meant by the words, " lord ing it,' by burgage tenure, over King and People." He was at no loss to know what they meant. The Honourable' Baronet did not dispute the power of the House over its own Members ; but as it was applied to the cases of strangers. Su l -'posing the fate of Mr. GaleJoneito.have s been, as was now said, illegally decided, it would better have become the.Honourable Baronet to have arraigned it.in that_House, than to have animadverted on it tel his "constituents—(Hear, hear.) Commitments were not unfrequent. During the reign of.. Elizabeth, Mr. Hall, a Member, was committed; and, following down to the year 1701, and later years, th 4 House of Commons, time after time, most strenuously - insisted on its privilege of committment. Such were the proceedings of our an cestors, continued to be acted upon by our immediate progenitors ; yet. perhaps the time was come, as Lord Kenyon said, Government was to be overturned by sedulously calumniating the Courts of Justice and both Houses of Parliament. Regretting though did that the present case applied to any represetv in Parliarhent ; still, having sent Mr. Jones v what would the world think, if, where was worse, the House failed xo proceed - cis Burdett • If, under the mistak giving a triumph to him, the House ;ken _ , . _ . . very e e dopb minus stated 4 b) were ...Jed to the respect of the House. They e je Would do well' to decide, not merely.as to cl•?.?. pit- - • priety or improprieey of Sir Frantis Burdett's Le" iti:te e • - 7- •. but also .as to the'doctrines which it coritained:-L-(he e e, . hear.) The Right flon.Ge'rnlernan (Mr.'Perceeal)lead * - cited the case of Mr. Hall : this case occtisiettriot : :4 the best days, nor the best times, since M. Haft wit .4; - both fined aud imprisoned. If„nevertheless, the Right Hon. Gentleman wished to avail himself of that case, he might as well do it in full. Much the same was the fate of the Kentish Petition, which .; • ended _with a kind of parliamentary compromise.--- Something had been said of factious persons overturn ing the Government; at least, the Right Hon. Gen tleman could not prevent the people of the country . fronethinking, though he might wish topreirent them from speaking, especially when; during the List Ses sion, they had found that two of three Ministers had been employed in ipfluencing the return of their representative--( . hear.)—lt seemed;. indeed, as . if the Right Hon. Gentlemen was anxious only to stifle the voice cf the. people ; but he trusted the day e•as not yet came, that it never would come, when the voize of dui people would be stiffed respecting the conduct of their representatives. From what the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had said, he thought it quite appa rent that he had not read the paper with that atten tion that was necessary before the House could come to a -decision. That Right Hon. Gentleman had laid particular stress on the word " resist." Now, in ano ther part of the paper he would have that word also used and coupled with the word " legal-;" but .in melt a meaner as to make it appear to any impartial man that the opinion intended to be conveyed was different to the construction endea youred to be put upon it by some Getitlemen opposite. The question was an ii-Npertent one,• and requited much time to give it, that consideration so intricate . and elaborate a case demanded, - and he thought the - House would consult its own dignity by supporting the motion for adjournment. Thinking that time was necessary to enable Ilse H ouse to b e competes: o decide on the resolutions, he should support Ae mo- • tion for adjournment. Mr. CURWEN read a few words in explanation. Mr: ADAM said, that it was in this case necessary to act with die deliberation, in order to Convince the public, that nothing had been done in haste, or pas sion, er ignorance. It was not enough to say that the question of privilege. had been already examined, in the case of Mr. Gale Jones ; a new and peculiar con sideration was necessary on the present point : there •e had not been a case of the committal of a Member for thirty years. In fact, the case before the House was 1 . perfectly new to the present Members. 'There was • probably not a man of all that he then saw a Mem ber at that period when the case of Alde - man-Olivee's t committal occurred l• many were not then ,in public life, and many were not even born. In the, case of „Major Scott, when the question was of a Member. ; • publishing a libel, the charge was brought on a cer tain day, and the discussion put nfF for a week.-_ (Hear.) The case of Alderman Oliver, in 1775, was . -the only other one within his (Mr. Adam's) experience ; » - that was a case which excited great discussion, and the decision was not formed till after the most grave : and meturedebating and inquiry. The paper complained j of in the present instance was not one which admitted of a light supervision ; it was a grave and weighty argument, on a subject of the first importance ;—it was supported bebmuch appeal to great law• autho rities, and yet Relies on this that they were required to decide per :Attn. " This to me at least (said Mr. Adam), is impossible. The Right Honourable Chan cellor of the Exchequer is not to estiinate my means by his advantages for ready decision, he has "all ap pliances and means to boot ;' he has le a gal friends to select, arrange, and supply him with evidence; I have only to sit down at three in the morning to look into the cases which were referred to in the -Honourable • Baronet's paper._ The single case of Crosby, the .Lord Mayor of London, was one which might require deep examination—Lord Chief Justice De Grey's $ opinion on it was before me, , but sitting down as I - did, even at that hour, the references on which any fair judgment was to be-found, could not be collec- ; ted in any convenient time. In order to feel a lull r reliance on the opinion of even that distinguished- ) • Judge, it was necessary to follow the authorities and • know by actual inspection the grounds on which his , - opinion was formed. The ATTORNEY GENERAL flattered himself l e that there was time enough for the House to h ave. ; come to a full judgment on the subject. It had b een • now three days before them ; the case was before them in the committal ofMr: G. Jones. The Learned Member who had just spoken had called for time, but he must have made up his mind on the poi& of de bate for it was that on which the House committed Mr. Jones : the vote on that occasion was unanimous; . - and of course the scruples of Honourable Members • • had been reconciled on that occasion. Sir F. 'Burdett had tictually introduced no new point of privilege, •• for he admitted the power of the House to commit its own litembers, and the House had already decided - upon the question of the committal of strangers, by committing Mr. G. Jones. The offensive language - - of the paper was matter of no long deliberation.. • • • • The Attorney General sat down amid a generarery • of Question. • r. BRAGGE BATHURSThid,fropithebegig• ning, wished to have a long day for the consideration, `..•` h of e a t r h ( e i i p n a o p l e e r d t e tn t e b o e n fo ly r e co tl n ie ti m rm , and all ti ed Trim in that ia t o h p e i n h i o a t He had heard the ~. bate might be must first.thinl 'me. They wt. Inds from what 'ay might alloy must delay t csaii for aju I not be att know that ( -- - -- 71 • . _______ ...... ~ .4.. 1 'that trititiiiii it, Veering bi piOcsed, ..tito jectipi as it Were, lie down to be trod ttpon---.(L•fut were 40 }id- . .. . .. N 7 . t i theft ete they; indeed, • . . i s -,, .. Ne moriati mOri: . .., _ .. . . L Lord VOLkSTONE said, that the speech ads* - 1 : :•- ! 1 . Right Hon. Gentleman (M r . P e r ceva l) ten d e d only •I, ... ". ' ~ 1 • to strengthen the motion for adjournment. He had s . • L. absolutely misunderitood and mis-stated the very ,: " l *. , precedents on which he appeared to Felt. The doub!t* : 2 • .3.: ' .] :lone Learned and Honourable Member (Sir Samuti ' - ' • : • Romilly) stated by himself, with great force of mint'. ..' ' ' ! were entitled to the respect of the House. Thpv 1 .. was come, as Lord He had heard it said that an adjournment:of the dit; be overturned by bate might be imputed to fe.ir or partiality, but they -ts of Justice and must first-think of justice. and for that they must have ;retting though he. time.. They were not to admit any influence on theix 7 . any representative minds from what had been said of the evil spirit whidi ' t Ir. Jones to prison, delay might allow, to be generated in the country;-•• where the offence they must delay their proceedings as long as it was •, • reed with,Sir Fran- necessary for a just judgment—but those idle motiveilt: - 7 - ken persuasion of would not be attributed to the 'House, the count*. should so give him ' would know that there were sufficient motives for 016:" • a , • - -0! • -1