Star. — London, England, 1817-04-29 00:00:00

mom ci a je d t he winetkin of Parliament, which languished ca account of a deficiency of funds necessary to pen secute them. Of many, parts were already finished. 'hie were useless until the whale was comeleted. Matte urgent applications had ben made to the Go. Tero ment in hehalf of these ,i.erir., n which if had b t en intended the attention ( f P oliament stnitttl have been calle,l in a direct manner ; but it was row I ccrsidered rh it it would or more beneficial if tile mo. rev xs pl aced at the &Tose' of Commisseiriere yoae unconnected , vith Government, and Who would h , wine d in th body of the Bill.• These Commis. t orors, I.e should propose, should he empowered to siz.v:iece sums, by way of loan. to Corporations and for Bodies, for the purpose of making Harbours or Cahals, or to Trustees of Roads, or to any persons t .,, .yid in public works now in progress, or about o ,,,ieetake them. These advances were not to• be created to those undertakings which the Parliament "sad sanctioned t for instance, the laudable Associa tion fer the Encouragement of Fisheries would he a e ery proper institution to receive aid. Works could :Inc b e brought to completion without ultimate ex ?eme tri :he public, if, as he trusted it would prove, ou t As had happened on former occasions, the interest ao money advanced had defrayed the expense of, tic commission and the other charges attending the lA. The transaction would in that case be nut less a dvantageous to the public at large than to the indi. viduAls immediately eneceaned. In Ireland it would :et be practicable to nominate a similar Commission , tri:a et such a delay 'as would defeat the purpose of ogrant, which was urgent in its nature. Itwould l ne c e ssary to enter into a correspondence with that I o'untry, to know what Gentlemen would undertakk a duty which would entail some trouble without any • prospect nt reward. To avoid that delay,' the sum Appropriated to that country would be placed at the disposal of the Lord Lieu:enant, to be applied to the Imposes he had mentioned.—Having detailed that re of the pl in which referred to the completion of It hiic works, he felt much greater difficulty in enter c; on the subject of advances on the security of the aor's Rates. He had never thought that any thing avid be done towards the relief of the Agricultural 1 1 .oulatiiin by the advance of any such sum as he ate proposed to advance. The Agricultural Inte- WAS to such an extent identified with the State, .at he could not conceive any circumstance by which i•c old be to tar separated from its prosperity or dd. i. its as to receive relief from any sum which l'ar. ./...rent could wisely advance to it. He was afraid ;').) that loans to the Agricultural Districts, in aid of et Pool's Rites, would encourage the practice of ("tailing the fair wages of labour, and of supplying tor deliciency by assistance from the Poor'e karts. They might also be tempted to throw on the Poor's Rtes rn die present year those for whom they might roeroise find emploament. On these accounts, the of the Agricultural distress did not form a part tithe measure When the Bill was before the Hem n:re would be found clauses which would guard aunt such an idea. The aavance to be granted tQ to; iAlet was never to exceed the half of the rate of et list year, and no advance was - to be made to any oh except in cases in which the rate was double average of the two preceding years. Though the IMO did not embrace the reliet of the Agriculto disWets, it was hoped to afford a temporary re that species of distress which had that night brought under the notice of the House, and it tat communicatiens from the place from which- Petition that night had been presented (Birming. 1) that the present measure was in pan to be at. tied. Undoubtedly•that distress was lamentable, he thought there were reasonable hopes of a her relief than the Honokrable and Learned gamin (Mr. Brougham) seemed to anticipate.-- this grant, indeed, he wee incitteed io calculate, t omega important impulse would be given to inhale, of BirminghaM, as piobably would A.- ' the means of 'permanent relief to that town, had suffered so particularly in consequence of Milton from war to peace—that that transition materially affected Birmingham, would be ob _. from this. fact, that during the war no less than 3 100, 00of•small arms had been manufactured there 'the use of the Allies, independently of those pro :4 for our own supply—and of course thrl'eesse ,of such warm Ind, in consequence of the lesion► . sof peace, must produce a most material result. it was in this respect only that the trade of ,Bier tgliam had suffered, for it appeared that .the ex eion of steel and iron had not Materially fallen off, export amounting (the Right Hon. Gentleman in 1814 to 41,940,000. in 1815 to aft1,127"10,' 1816 £1,740,000. Thus in the last year it rather more than what it was in the year Fe iner while it was nearly as much as in 1814.- 1 upon of hardware, the manufacture of Bir than), the Right Hon. Gentleman stated to be. 14 4300,000, in 1815 4871,000, ,and in 1816 Thus the falling off the last year, corn• to that of 1815, was only about ten per cent. it was more than double that in 1814. The • Hon. Gentleman proceeded to shew that no PI off had taken place in the several articles of ;ham manufacture, since the war, by a cora ,: uf exports, except in those articles used Purposes of war, and, therefore, he was led that the distress which afaicted that town - 4 1 in consequence of the cessation of tee de as ttIG ivernment, while, with respect to foreign ' d e , that town had suffered no m aerial diminu ''' In this conclusion, indeed, he was confirmed the ialormation of those who were best acquainted trade of the country, and most competent to orin the subject. From auch sources, he that the loan of 30 or 810,000 to the menu. r 'rs Of Birmingham would be of material service 'listing circumstances. Por the distress of alien), as well es for that which. affected other , 01 the country, he telt the most lively interest, therefore he rejoiced in the exercise of private be. deuce to alleviate that drstress.—But he was el f% aware that private benevolence could not sa to afford permanent relief. Yet while it wai.in It),h was impressed with the conviction that it net become Government to interfere. But the was, that the resources created by that benevo. wer e nearly, if nut altogether, exhausted, And it became the duty of Government to em its aid for the relief of the industrious poor, ' by every practicable economy in the public :ure a but by an actual loan to those who had litota 01 giving employment to industry. Tie felt so strongly the peculiar siteatron of Arrin Inger ham, as described in the petition presented by a Learned Gentleman (Mr Brougham), and so fairly anirnadverted• upon by that Learned Gentleman, that he should have coioeived himself bound to sub mit a distinct propo ition with regard to that town, but upon consideration it was deemed more just and expedient to extend the means of relief to other places, which were also suffering by the pressure of the trines. That due provision would Le made by the Commissioner. to be appointed to guard against the misapplication of these means there was retry reason to conclude. and as to the details of the plan to be pursued for . this vet y, desirable purpose, he thought it better to leave those to be arranged by the collective wisdom of the House, elide he should he ready to afford every explanation in his power with respect to the views of hit Majesty's Ministers. What views might be entertained •by other Gentlemen, or whit objection might be urged against the plan which he had stibmitted, he could not presume to anticipate; but that plan was liable to revision, and it would, lie trusted, be put in the most perfect, practicable shape. 'by the consideration and judgment of the House.— His proposition at present was, that the resolutions which he held in his hand should be adopted, and, when printed, stibmitted to further consideration on Friday next, or on any other day which might appear most convenient to the House. But he begged leave to obset we, that dispatch was of the utmost Impor tance in a question of this nature, and that no delay in the arrangements proposed should be allowed that could possibly be avoided. The Right Honourable Gentleman concluded with proposing the first 'resolu tion, " That his Majesty be ens!) ed to issue Exche quer Bills, nut exceeding £1,500,000, to be distribu ted in loans by Commissioners arpointed by Parham •ment, for the employment ot the Poor ot Great Bea. Limn in Public Works, and tur the relief of Manufac. lures, on the condition that due security be taken for the re-payment of these loans. Mr. PONSONBY rose, not to make any captious objection to the Right Honourable Gentleman's plan, which he did not yet correctly understand, but to ob serve that the Right Honourable Gentleman had not stated the mode in which the repayment ot the pro posed loans was to be secured. This was certainly an omission which it was desirable to 511, ply. The omission was,perhaps, casual, but it was rote at such imptirtance, that he hoped the' Right Honourable Gentleman would favour the House with some ex planation as to the manner in which, and the time when it ssas proposed that these advances should be repaid. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated, in reply, that :t was his intention to leave the details as toil's.- execution of his plan to be conside red and adjusted by the House. He had, however, no objection to present an outline of his views with respect to the repayment alluded to by the Right Hun. Gentleman. In the first place, he proposed that the*Exchequer Sills to bea,sued should be pay- Able in three years, that is, in 1820 t and that secu rity. should be taken for the repayment of.the several advnutes by instalments. so that the whole should be repaid to the Commissioners by the time when .the Exchequer Bills became payeale by the State. But that, in case it should be expedient for the czanpletiost of public works to allow a farther tone, the Commis skitters should be empowered to extend it fur six or seven years from the period of making the loan. It was also proposed that the several loans should bear an interest of live per cent. whale the Exchequer Bills should be issued at their present rate of Slt per cent. and the differeoce would, of course, be for the advert,. rage of the public. The securities to be token for the proposed advances would be naturally had froin those persons who were interested in the manufactures or public works, to which those advances would be made, probably trem the proprietors,' and it would be for the Commissioners to look to the adequacy of those te:urities. None would, of coutse, offer• security for the Oasis who were not fully convinced of the utility of the public works or manufactures, for whose be nefit those loans were to be made, and of the com petency of such establishments to provide an ade- Trate indemnity, or ot their inadequacy if left in an imperfect state. Mr. BLAKE expressed his regret that the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan of relief did not extend to agriculture, which claimed the first consideration of Parliament, and was certainly deserving of more at tention than either manufactories or public works. For as to the former they would, and they ought to be left to find their own level, while as to the latter they were generally more ornamental than useful. Fur example, great sums were expended in Ireland in constructing grand canals, instead of improviog the natural navigation of that country, or in making other improvements, of which that long. neglected country was known to be susceptible. But the im provement of the land ought to be the 'main •eonsi deration, and the landed interest notoriously suffered the greatest distress both in. England and Ireland. Yet the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan evinced no at tendon to either, although land was the source of all our wealth...although if the landed interest were de , pressed. commerce was of no avail, and all our pub lic works must become comparatively useless. • Mr. PHILLIPS declared his inability to compre hend the nature of the security alluded to by the Right Honourable Gentleman. Did the Right Ho nourable Gentleman mean to confine the proposed loans to public works actually begun ?—(" No, no," from the Treasury Bench, ,* they are to extend to works to be begun").—As these loans were to be granted for the construction of public roads, how, he would ask; were the parochial rates to be relieved by pledging these rates to the persons Who should be. come security for the repayment of these loans Such a plan would, in his opinion, rather tend to augment the rates, and to aggravate the evil so . loudly complained of. Then as to manutactures, it was a delusion to conceive that this plan would afford any relief. For to his knowledge, the manufacturing towns' did not want capital to give employment to labour, but a market for the sale of their productions' ;.-(thar,.kaar).—lt•was, therefore, a mockery to sup.' pose that the proposed advance would be productive of any advantage to the manufacturers Of the away. and it was equally delusive to say that the distress of (with the ezeeption . of Or' harvest) U ott l y co o u f nt a r Iterpsorary nature I. tor the taet was, thra they were broken-down by the pressor/ref taxas.... W s was the great evil) that by tieing every' kes rticle of export, rendered as anablvso sclirout.pladops 'or • , , . santantaetare on reasonable ienias. eSpeCT3Ily to Fo reigners. Again, as to the system of securities pro. posed •by the Right Honourable Gentleman, it WAS ObViOUS that the establishment of such a system must interfere most injuriously with the transfer of property. For who could calculate that under such a system any property purcbasi d Might lint most unexpectedly be swept away by an Exclwq.iti• Ex. or Extent in Aid— (Hear, Hear.) 'nit whole svlti-m of the ltight- Honourable Gentleman was in dr. d pregnant with /faculty and delwion, while the only effectual way of rcliev'ng the distress of the country was to reduce evir public estalkshments, and to introduce a rigid ettlomy into every branch of the public expenditure, to which lie (eared neither the Right Honourable Gentleman nor his coileNgues were in any degree disposed. Mr. GRENFELL expressed a wish to know in what way it was intended to advance the piorsed loans. whether in specie or in Bank-notes ?—whether . the Exchequer Bills were to be put into the hands 01 the Bank, there to remain with interest accuniulating upon them for three years, or lent at once to the par. ties from whom they required securities to be taken ? He also desired to know whether it was intended to issue Exchequer Bills of £lOO or £5O each, and so to render them a part of the circulating medium of the country The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that the intention was to issue Exchequer Bills, as in former cases, at seltiO, or perhaps 850 each, to the parties giving the required securites, and thus from the regulation of interest, they might be taken at par, and so become a p4rt . ot the circulating medium of the cvuntry. But he should eister tuither into the details on a future occAsion. With re,pect to the observations of an Honourable Member (Mr. Phillips) he had no hesitation in stating, that he was completely of opinion, the distress of the country was only temporary. Indeed, it such was not his 'opi nion, he most regard not only the present, but any plan that human wisdom could devise as a mere de lusion, and insufficient to remove the evils coin- plumed of. But the object and calculation of the pro. ject which be bad submitted was to relieve the dis- tress of an unfavourable season, which he hoped very unlikely now to occur—and in so doing it was pro posed to fellow the examples of 1793 and 1811, nei ther of which had been productive of inconvenience. To a question from Lord A. HAMILTON, the CHAN =AAR of the Excitants& observed, that personal se- curtly would be requited for parishes, where (as in Scotland) there were no poor rates. The Honourable Mr. LAMB expressed a lrpe that it should go forth to the country that the object of the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan was not to afford what was called relief, but to provide employ. ment for the poor. He was most anxious that this should be distinctly understood, and that no delusion should prevail, lest an idea should arise that it was meant to give away the public money fur the purpose of encouraging idleness or prodigality. As to the se curity to be taken, he t:usted that adequate prOl lbloll would be made to guard against the evil of allowing the occupier of land to mortgsge thai land without the consent of the proprietors, tor otherwise great con fusion must ensile, and the landlords would ultimately suffer considerable injustice. especially where any ma terial rise at present etisted in the Pours' Rates. Lord COCHRANE disapproved of the plan un. deesemideratiots, =leis Ii as far as it might be c 'Werra is the repayment of some part of the money which had been unjustly taken from the people. In any. other view, it appeared to his mind to be a* com plete delusion: tcr, the great evil consisting incite bur then of taxation. no effectual relief could be.afforded bat by the reduction of that burthen. This was the evil whiCh bore down our manufactures, and which destroyed our trade. For it was nonsense to say, that the prohibitory decrees of foreign Governments could prevent the sale of our commodities, if the manntac toren could afford to sell them at I reasonabler fit& It was notorious, that all the navy of England could not guard against smuggling into this country; and at was a mockery to pretend that any foreign Govern. ment could prevent the introduction of our manufac 4ures, if foreigners were not able to undersel us, through the weight of taxation to which these manu factures were subjected. That was indeed the great obstacle to our commerce, which the superiority of our machinery and the iogenuity of our artists were totally insufficient to overcome. The funds and the taxes were then the principal enemies of our trade, and while they existed in their present state it was idle to pretend that trade could be restored, or that the country could be relieved by a plan like that of the Right Hon. Gentleman, which proposed to advance a sum which was not, in tact. equal to ti-e amount of the poors' rates for three months. For out paws' rates I were Mown at present to exceed 151 millions per ann.' The Noble Lord here endeavoured to shew, that if st sponge were at once applied to the public debt, no injury whatever would arise to the nation ,, and that common justice demonstrated the neceeity. of dining the interest of that debt, in order that the fundholders should bear their doe share of the public' burthens, Worn the pressure of which they were at presearexempted, through the enhancement-of that circulating Medium which was so materially dere. ciated when they lent their money.. Mr. PONSONBY said, he was net mate under stood the measure now proposed by the Right B' nourable Gentleman I indeed he was rather inclined to think he did nut understand it. He was willing to suppose that it had been brought forward with the best intentions; but he was certain, if it were intended to produce good, it should be quickly put in opera. lion« He therefore bad no desire to impede the pro-1 gress of the measure, but; on the contrary, felt us cerely, desirous of promoting it. He had heard! enough, however, to convince him, that the House would not be at to enter urns a consideration of the whole question, till the Bill Was regularly before them, and with that conviction he should not oppose either the passing of the Resolutions, or the bringing up of the Report. The Right Honourable Gentle man would do well; therefore, to brin&in the Bill as' soon as possible. At the same time he wished dis tinctly to state, that he should not consider himself bound, in consequence of thin assenting to all the previous steps, to approve of the MIMIC itself, when Me fully ondostood it, and had fully considered it. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sakci that nilitbliwconld•be mini fair or candid than the proPesklen - cif the Honourable Member ; and he Wield is fat from Callsidnium any individual pledged Or approve of the Measure hereafter,mere:;' on We= count of his voting fir the Resolutions.. Mr. PONSONBY explained. He said, if the plan were even more ohji ct;ohable than it appeared at the first view, yt there lam' sineething so pleasing to the mind in the idea , rf proviJing tellet tor the present eio ress e s 1 .1 th a t he could not for a mo ment bring himself to oppose the comidere•ion of any scheme which seemed likely to Attain that ohjeer. Lord MILTON said, it would certainly be very invidious so throw any obstructions in Ole way ref a measure which was intended to relieve the poor; but At the faille littl:vit was essential that the House and the country should clearly understood tine nature of • IN measure, which he wall sure bad not bens the case with respect to the Iloit'se unit that evening. And he mnew that out of doors an ()pitiful very generally prevailed, that it WAS intrn.ied for the relief of the pour gem i. 114. In fart, one object of the measure wa s only to facilitate the means of giving employ ment to those persons who liappenvil to be to locally situated, that works ref pishlt c descr;ptirrn were cur.- tying on in their neighbourhood. The ot h er object was to enable particular parishes to Afford parochial re lief where the poor-rates were alu.ne a certain level.. • He confessed lie doubted the practicability of the plan, especially with regard to thy, latter poiar, bees ice th e duress that was felt in to soy paririei, 470i2 not merely from the want of labour, but from the want of a market v, hither the pro luct of that labour c , .uld be carried, and because the funds applicable to ruo chidl relief weir rapidly crumbling away. N.)w the proposed plan would not iis,i,t tlii.se tends. it might place a certain quantity of nrini.•y At the disposakof the overseers, but their it was to be recoisected that ' every parish which Accepted of such assistance con tracted a parochial debt. He v.ould su4gest the pro priety of dividing the resolution into two ctistinct pro- positions, the one, for employing the lzior in places where public works might be c irrying on ; the other, for extending aid to particular parishes. His reasons was, because there might be various opinims upon those two points, and because it would be desirable that in, any plan which should be advted, unanimity should appear. Sir E. BRYDGES concurred in the propriety of tie proposed measure, and declared he should have been glad if a greater sum had beea Jeterm:ned on. Sir J. NEWPOIt adverted to the influence which would probably be produced by the apprehensi , rn of becoming liable to a Crown process. Ii Atteitts of the Crown were so forrnidahle to persons who became debtors of the Crown for objects or their own, was it. hitely that many would be foUnd aiding to incur such a liability for purposes of a merely charitable. nature t He was afraid that consideration woi:11 vrove greatly detrimental to the operatirm of me measure, unless some means weir adopted to guarl against it. With regard to public works. such as canals fOr instance, he believed, that any luau advan ced by the Crown would be reitwantly ie.:tired, for . it might opi.rate to the injury cat the private creditor of such wanks, and to the injury of his..security, in CAS( on the Crown corning in 41 . 4 Creditor, upon, the ' ultimate Were of the design. He owned, he did. - not see,iit present, how the proposed plan could have any advantageous operation t at the same .time, be was tar foam fe:ling any disposition to oppose a - scheme t r ref evioe, tire ais.iessi sot the conntry.if it had but the slightest probability'of being feasible.- The CHANCELLOR. df the EXCHEQUER observed, that it would be a provision in the Bill, that the Crown should not - have priority over any other creditor, except with the consent of the creditera.• themsblves. •Mr. BABINOTON said, that if the parishes be came manufacturers with Public funds, it would ba contrary to all commercial principles, and private • ' manufacturers would not be 'able to compete .sith them. That was an evil, in his opinion, the proba bility of which ought not be lost sight of. To employ the poor upon public works, would be productive of no harm, but he apprehended it would nut always be - possible for parishes to find such employment. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that these was no intention to exact at a CuA dition, troth the p.riii:es which might .apply for aid, ~'' that they should use the-money prc , vich.ig - ' meat fur their poor. At the same time, it would be highly desirable, that the whet granted should be, as ' muchas possible, in the shape us. work, leaving it ter the parish to select the particular deacription of eat-. • ployment. Generally speaking, he Apprehended,. that public works, such as roads, buildings, Jaridges,, canals, Sm. would be the kind of occupation selected„, • as requiring merely labour, and nut any particular kind of skill. Mr. LY I"I'LETON said, he should not now in; quire what rute,rit be the details of the Bill, or what the djections dint might be urged, but tnede were one or two points upon which he wished to s.ty a few . words. Tne Right Hunoutable Gentlem,ll4 - in his opinion, had assumed certain facts which lie did not. think were tenable. First, that the present distress , was greatly owing to the want of capital. He did . not conceive that to be the case ; and indeed, as far • as his information extended, in regard to that part of • the•country with which he WAS more iminediictely connected, 'he knew it was not. It WAS rather a want of the means of employing capital, :tad ren. derin& it productive r -(liear, irear).—lf that assomp. ton were even — cor.Coed to use Right liotiourat:le Gentleman,' it tiould still be a questilit wriether loans might not b•.: ob6ined as advautagt:ou,ly in the usual Way, as by the plat: &low proposed Mtn re spect to public works, he did not know what magic there was in those words. 11 public w•rks were pro. ductlve, private s&i:iiturers would still be. fohr.d willing -mid able to prosecute, tlrehr—(licur, As to fisheries, lie should waive any °Wei - yawn), upon them, tor there Might poasilsly be some %vb.:3 only requited fund* to beiartied on with v igo t. Wi.la regard to the distreis lelt is particular patislies, . what was the nature of the "relict proposed to be ex.. tended to them ? to plain words, when a parish was bankrupt, thep assistance wart to be afforded, ..nd for which assistance its bankrupt funds were to be taken is a security, unks*, inched, souse kind of iarconal security was to be .siiiperadd:d. He should Ike to know in hat sense the . it • ight Hon. Geo ie111.411 talked ut personal security, Did fle e use ,the expres;iou in the meaning which *as coilimunry giaeli to It its the commercial world ? Or did he look to the a..cutity or real property ? Hes L pp h ot i e n d ia he ri probabi l ity. en i b d i j e ty: all that point more fully. In a il i n I the scheme would be perfectly sugatcry,. as .* T me tr. :he publii And ISII Ad h Appel t!`: nioney adv c ommission ar h ods . The transa a dvantageous to vidualb immediate Mist he practicable stitlrat such a de ti Srant , which be neressary to en; onintry, to know a duty which wou prospect nt rew ar appropriated to th dospos..ll of the Lr Imposes he had ri•!t ut the plan it hilt works, he 1 itg on the subjec bat's Rates. H could be done toi Population by th dt•n proposed to ita scAs to such that he could not c odd be co far as to recel i.crent could wit f!vo that loans to tit Pool's Rites, ("wiling the fail LS deficiency by They might also Rtes nt Ille Ives verwise hod err aii.l °I the Agri tithe measure tb:re would be ariittit such an i p.; 'Ales was nes ea lost year, ant pr osh except in ef average of th , litiitiTC did not tel districts, it w lief to that specie • keen brought ur wet V 1 coin .nun the . Petition that lobe) that the tfitrated. Undo 554 he thought !?el diet relief lieillem,n (Mr By this grant, edit tueti.ap ittti fa industry of fl the means which had mt& the transition frr bad materially ; Itdus from this. MOO= of •sm teethe use of th sided for our o )ilt of such n.e of peace, Bnt it was in tl magham had pitttion of stet that export ate said) in 1814 t and in 1816 ad WAS Taber mot reeling, while i 1 4 e export of trilglians, the • 71 IEI4 i4"3011, test to that c bile it seas tt fight H on . all!ing off Mac l umitogham r ex w the p ull)° , believe that as merely in Ands of G Tilde, that tc i?n. In this 'I the ialorm tlw tiadi ;Ton t 'stet that t adorer; of I vxistul l arts of the c 4,1 therefore .eri,letice to aYs aware ; •ct: to afford et "), lte 01 141 toot be t Was s sba 'CC w eie n; herefese it b 'wee Its 4j 4 OLiy by penditute, °PlAJ—ftutai I howtvv, s