Star. — London, England, 1823-02-13 00:00:00

• testimony of respect to thaise which had already beer paid to the Right honourable Gentleman, and to re-n turn him thanks for the great attention which had always been paid to. any suggestions which he had occasion to make on behalf of. the merchants and tradesmen of Dover. " . . ~!• Mr. T. WILSON said, that though there thightbd -smite differences of opinioo• among the merchants of the city of Lon ion, as .to the improvements stig . gested by the Right Honourable Gentleman,. theta was no difference of opinion as tains merits; . and hd, had good reason to believe, that in a very short tiniet they intended to communicate to hint in a publici, manner the very high value which they set upon his public exertions. Mr. HUME rose merely to express his deep regret that the country was likely to lose the services of the Right honourable Gentleman (Mr. Wallace) who foe the last two or three years had devoted his attention so be;teficially to the Public. If Ministers had had the interest of the nation as much at heart as makitig a .provision for their friends, they would have con trived in some way to have secured the assistance of the Vice-President of the Board of Trade. It had most.tortunately of late become the general opinion that the interest of the State was involved in thirin terests of individuals, and the labours of the Right honourable Gentleman had been applied to carry thii principle into effect. It was therefore most deeply to be liiiirented that he was compelled by circumstances to retire from his situation. Wir. CANNING cordially agreed in what had just fallTn . from the Honourable Member for Aberdeen: be regretted as much as any man that any circum stances had occurred to induce his Right Honourable Friend. (Mr. Wallace). to withdraw his aid from his Maje Sty's Government, What those circumstances were, was not, perhaps, a fit subject for discussion: he could only say, that.there was no member of Ad ministration who did not join with him in apprecia ting most highly the talents and utility of the coad jutor they were about to lose: all felt towards him the same degree of cotdiality which he expressed. Al though feelings of delicacy and some private matters might induce his Right Honourable Friend to relin quish the situation he now held, 110 effort should be left untried on the part of the King's Government to replace him in an office equal to his high abilities and eminent services —(Hear, hear). The question was then put, and the Committee was re-appointed. CHIEF BARON O'GRADY. Mr. SPRING RICE rose to call the attention of the House to a subject of peculiar delicacy and im portance, but in doing so he would only occupy a few minutes. Without now entering into the merits of the case, he was anxious to state specifically the' present condition of the question, and to ask Minis ters what course they intended to pursue? The Com missioners, appointed in 1814 to inquire into the con sleet of Ministers and Officers of Courts of Justice in Ireland, had made .various reports; they had done their duty honestly and earnestly, and had accom plished a great public benefit. The particular re port affecting the question now before the House was presented in April, 1821 ; and it was soon afterwards returned to the Lord Chief Baron of Ireland, as it included charges against him of the gravest import anCe : the imputation was no less than this—that as a Judge he had been guilty of extortion upon the suitors of the Court, by taking from them in the shape of fees that which was not due, more than was due, or, what was not due at the time it was taken. In June, 1821, he (Mr. S. Rice) had moved a series of Resolutions founded upon the Report, but they were suspended at the request of. the Marquis of Londonderry, who subsequently moved for a Select Committee, which made a report that the justifica tion.of the Chief Baron upon certain parts of the charges was not satisfactory, and that upon others further information was necessary. The Noble Mar quis was understood to have pledged himself that the matter should be referred to the competent authori ties in Ireland, and in May, 1822, it was sent back to the Commissioners of Inquiry. Their Report upon the charges was again transmitted to the Chief Baron, and in reply that Learned Lord had transmitted a letter, which was upon the table of the House. Thus, then, the question now stood : a charge had been made, the Learned Lord had pleaded not guilty, and had put in a justification, and the two parties were at issue. •41though he ( Mr. Rice) at. the end of last Session had given notice that he would bring the subject under discussion in the present,.yet in a mat ter of this delicacy and magnitude, he held that it was the duty of the Government not to stand by as neutral, but either so protect the character of the sledge, if . falsely accused, or the administration of justice, if improperly discharged. A decided . opinion, and in his view decided conduct, was required on the part of the servants of the trown ; and he trusted that the Irish Government on this occasion would disehargeits,duty. He hid the more reason to sup pose that it would, because with regard to the inferior 14agistracy, it-bad recently exercised a most whole settle authority (though perhaps more valuable . for the admissioa of the principle than for the manner in which it had been carried into effect); and whilst it stewed this spirit of reform among the minor • of fenders, it could not allow the greater and more )heinous • to. escape. The Commission had cost the eeetetry_nearly £lOO,OOO, and it was yet to be seen wW,her the money had been spent in vain. For his a► p. part, he (Mr. Rice) was willing to redeem his pledge, and proceed. with the accusation ; but he called upon Government_ to do its f low, and to take so serious a subject out of his hands. Lie hlaved for copies of all correspondence shim last . Session ujuin the 9th and 11th Report of thetommissioners of In. squisy regarding the charges against Baron O'Grady. Mr. GOULBURN was .confident that the . Roil. Member must anticipate the reply he should give to .the inquiry contained . in what had been just stated, and he trusted that the. house would concur in the propriety of the.courseGoternment thought itself called uponto pursue. True it was that the Marquis a Londonderry occasioned a further inquiry into a part ef. the case ; but it did not follow from thence that it was the duty of Ministers to proceed. with the other parts ofits. ,The Committee bad been. appointed to obtain further information for the general satisfac tion of the House ; and it seemed 'to him (Mr. Goul butu) that fur Government to take up the charge under the particular and especial circumstances, would be a great injustice to the individual incul. • gated; and a rdts violation of an important pnbliel' principle. He save rth analogy between the cases o 4 thirinferior Magistracy and that of a Judge. In the, first case, it was the undisputed right-of the Crowif Ito appoint dottiemove-; but a high judicial ollicer4 though nansestty the Crosson,- was not removable by stood' Vile - 4,01V ikdiferent footing. For misters to proceed in theacciosation, would, in his opinion ] be to make this solemn question a party matter, and would be highly prejudicial to the in terests of justice. He did not say that cases might not occur in which the Government would be called upon to interpose, but be contended that the present was not one of them. It bad been begun by the Hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Rice), he had per seveied in it through several Sessions, and he had this night followed it up by moving for additional do cuments. The charge could not be in better hands. Mr. ABERCROM BY, after referring to what had formerly fallen from him upon this subject, contended that the Marquis of Londonderry, by the proceeding he had recommended, and by the Committee he had appointed, had, in point of fact, adopted this accusa tion. There was no duty more important than for a Government to watch over the due administration of justice,. by which the interests of the People were so especially guarded. He also objected to this being its.ide a partyquestion ; but the way to render it so, was to leave it in the hands of an individual Member, -and to direct againit him all the Influence of Mi nisters. This charge had for several years been de pending against the Chief Baron, during which time he had gone the circuit, and had tried criminals, when perhaps he himself ought to have been put upon his trial. If Government did not proceed, in his opinion they would be guilty of an abandonment of their duty. If the lion. Member for Limerick would take his advice, he would recommend him to drop the subject, in order to see if Ministers_ would venture to remain passive spectators. Mr. PEEL observed, that the real 'question was, l whether Government ought to 'take the case nut of the hands of the Hon. Member' for Limerick, who had commenced the proceeding in 1821-?. Was these any reason why he should relieve himself, and throw the burden upon the shoulders of others? Ministers, must, of course, be at all times anxious to facilitate these proceeding; and had done their utmost to carry the reforms recommended by the Commissioners into effect. They were by no Meant desirous of shrink ing from their duty ; but because the -Marquis of Londonderry wished to Obtain further information, it was not to be inferred that he meant to undertake the proseeption. He was then, like others, only act ing in his judicial capacity as a Member of Parlia ment. He (Mr. Peel) declared most solemnly, that he thought the ends .of justice would be best pro moted by leaving the calein the hands oflthe Hon. ,Gentleman who had originally undertaken it. He; and other Members of the Government were desirous of the most patient and impartial attention to what. ever the Hon. Gentleman might bring forward. .- Mr. C. GRANT by no means agreed, that in , moving for a Committee, the late Marquis of Lon donderry had pledged Government to prosecute the complaint: He thought, however, that the best course which could be taken at present, would be to, refer the whole matter to a Committee anew. Mr. WYNN, at some length, went through the Carious steps which had been taken in the transac, don. If the charge had been against any Officer pf the English Government, the obvious course would have been for the House of Commons at once to have called witnesses to the matters in question. As those persons, however, who must of necessity, be made witnesses were chiefly persons filling official stations in Ireland, from the duties of which they could ill be spared, it had been deemed advisable rather to take evidence by a Commission, than to receive it directly at the Bar of Parliament. But that evidence being now in due form before the House, it appeared to him that the case stood exactly where the Hon. Gen tleman opposite (Mr. S. Rice) had left it, when he first brought forward the charges. The House had heard the charges from the Hon. Gentleman; it was in possession of the evidence in support of them, through the medium of the Commission : then let the Hon. Gentleman, upon that evidence, proceed at once to call for a decision of the case. The course of the Hon. Gentleman appeared to him (Mr. Wynn) perfectly plain. No doubt the case was one which demanded full investigatiqp; but he thought it better that the Hon. Gentleman should pursue it, and that Government should take it up. Mr. S. RICE briefly replied, and maintained that he had always treated this case as one which-ought, to be taken up by the Government —lt was then or dered that the Correspondence should be presented. CLERGY Of SCOTLAND. Mr. HUME, in bringing forward his motion upon, this sobject, promised that he should be brief, because he anticipated no opposition. As various matters cep- netted the Church would probably come under discussion in the present Session, he wished to put before the House an account of the state of the Clergy in Scotland. The motion which he now brought for ward was for a Return of the Stipends received by the Scottish Clergy ; and he bad worded it, .he be lieved, in such a manner that the information would be attained with little trouble or personal. inconveni ence : he meant that the Clergy, who were about 940 in number, should be divided (qua stipend) into four classes, the maximum and missinsum of each class being given ; and by this means a tolerablraccurate notion of each individual's income might be obtained, with- Out the embarrassment of extended detail, or the. lacrifice of personal feeling. He understood that in the year 1750, an account of the salaries of the Scot-. fish Clergy had been taken. He wished to see that account; in order that he might compare the salaries 'of 1750• with those paid durinalle last three years.' He believed it would be found that there was eery , little difference in their amount. If -any objection was to be made to the present motion, he would state the grounds on which he called for the &num question ; if no opposition was tb be made, it was Ineedless that he should consume the time of the House., Mr. Hume then moved that there should be laid upon the table-4st, a Return of the number of Pasishes in' Scotland, of the number of Churches. in each, and oF thenumber of 'Clergymen ; by which it would apiteari he said, that the Scottish Clergy were resident, us op position to the course pursued by their brethren 9 1 England ; for a Return of the annual value, in money, of the Stipends of the Clergy of Scotland . 4 ,1 g , • 7.7 • . . during the lastlthrec•Tears, esoinswe a!stb,e, , rome, the of 'anal the glebe* Sallyisfor_*, same' I*m according to an account takeu,in.theyear . 4... • Mr. PEEL hid his .419nbie l yinther . aietitint called for by the Licmoura4le,cairtlemitti,could. 'be made out wi th out application so each -particular Clergyman—a measure svhich i l?esifles liaimpetha.ps unpleasant to the parties. woul4 ,be attended at. least with considerable labour. HO:wished that the HO nourable Gentleman woUld e at all imams, withdraw his motion until the possibility of-complying with it shonld.be ascertained. ••• ' • Mr.+IUME was surprlsed, that any. Gentleman in the Right Honourable Secretary% situation should be ignorant that there was an Office in Scotland called the Teind Office, which was in possession of the in come of every Clergyman in the country. Even if there were a necessity of sending round to every pa rish, he did not see why that necessity should form any bar to his potion: No such necessity, however, did exist. For the last fifty years applications for augmentation had been constant, and whenever such had been the case, the income of the applicant would stand registered. The only difficulty, and that was • trifling, would be, that as part of the emoluments of the Clergy had sometimes been paid in grain, it might be necessary to have the parish liars to ascer tain the alterations in value of that article. • Mr. PEEL Was surprised that, after Making * motion quite different from his notice gively : the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) should charge him with ig norance of the duties of his office—( Hear, hear). — He had merely proposed to the lion. Gentleman to suspend his motion for a few days, until the practica bility of complying with it could be ascertained ; and the Hon. Gentleman, on the strength of a pri vate reference to un office with which he (Mr. Peel) was not in communication, came forward to charge him with ignorance. He repeated that the Hon. Gentleman's motion differed entirely from the notice which he had given. -.(Hear). Mr. HUME hoped that the notice would be read ( 4 , Hear!" from the Opposition). :The notice was then read—For a Return of Sti pends of the Clergy of Scotland in the years 1750 and 1022—(" Hear from the Opposition). Mr.PEEL doubted whether any return for the year 1750 was in existence. Sir GEORGE CLERK wished • the Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hume) to give some time for inquiry . With respect to the values of the livings inAe year 1822, it was not quite clear in what man ner they were to be obtained. Where augmenta tions had been given, the fact might be upon record; but there might be considerable difficulty where such had not been the case. The. Honourable Member sat down by supporting the declaration . of Mr. Peel, that Mr..Huine had brought forward; a motion entirely different from bis notice. ; . Mr. HUME said that his motion was the same in. effect as hismotice, but that in the-notice he had not 'thought * it necessary. to-give the details. J - k could "have no objection to-postpone the motion : for ten days or twenty days. He would wait the.plestiure of-the Honourable Vpotlemen opposiqi until it was con venient to them for' him to bring it font/ad. Hi wished, howyOr, that -it might be entered upon with out unnecessary delay, as the pitieeedings arising Out . of it would occupy. time. • SUPPLY. Upon the motion that the SPEAKER should leave the Chair, and the House go into a Cointattee to consider the Supplies of thelre4r, Mr. HUMI rose and said, chat before the Speaker left the Chair, it was his intention to adopt the Con stitutional mode of saying a few words upon What hk. considered to be the faults of the Government, before, the House proceeded to grant .the Supplies: The Speech of his Majesty, which he must consider to be.that of his Ministers, promised the strictest' economy ; but, unfortunately, that had always lieen the case without being justified . by results. ft vras from experience only that they could judge of what they were to. expect ; and he should, therefore, refer to what bad been said, .and suisseqpently 'done, upon former occasions. 1n . 1817, :Olen a Cothmittee was' appointed for the purpose af:enforeing.econonty and retrenchment, and which had been spoken of in such high terms by a Noble Marquis, now no more, the Estimates were given at 13,951,0001: but the actual expenditure of.the year . amounted to 14,820,0001. an increase of nearly a million. In 1818, the Estimates amounted to tspwardi of fourteen millions, the actual, expenditure to 15,155,0001. being an increase again : of -nearly one million. This, too, was after the declaration of the Committee, that there was to be a progressive reduction of expenditure from the year 4817. Unfortu nately up to last year it had been a progressiye increase. Such was the manner in which the House had been seduced by fair words front year to year, and when :they came to look at the results, they found that more :taxes had beenraised, more had been taken out of the pockets of the people in the present yekr . than in anyone duties the last seven. He therefore hoped that the-House Would not look to these sweet 'and honeyed words, but . to the actual results by which they had . been followed.. The same professions of economy, even to the language, had gone through every speech, of Ili; Majesty for the. last _twenty years ; the House would therefore know what trust was to be placed in them now. He hid put down this statement upon paper, to shew that the general amount: of the estimates and expenditure had in ! creased from 1817 dowrkto 1823. These remarks referred. to general. heads, and he should next pro ceed to details and particular cases, and there they would find the mine results. Only a : few days ago Loscl Beresford had been appointed Lieutenant-Ge neral of the Ordnance, An office which he should_shew ought.not to. ha,ye been .filled up... The expenses of the Tower Establishment loviincreased,frOmj.:2o,ooo cal:48,000, and that was chiefly incurred in salar ies: General lieresford received one of these, and the office of Lieutetiant-Getteral of Ordnance was now.to be kept up. When Sir Hildebrand Oakes died, be thought the office would certainly be allowed to drop. The Report of the Commissioners' of Military In !airy, in the . year 1811, expressly declared the offiee to, be unnecessary. Lord Moira and Lord -Chatham, .were the two Masters-Genesal of the' Otdeauce at that time, and Lord Moira stated his, belief ; that' the tiffice was . not a useful one,— turd afatham was of a different opinion, as he thought it was mseful,.43iit s tbe Ccpamisoioners agreed with the fornies. If those Catntrihtioners declared , that it was not necessary in 1811, invi trae of war, 10 *cub! isle - atk t'lle -Coo tilt% ht Siciold . ask itte- Ministers themselves, how they ceutchnaintain it **sr in time of peace? He di& not wish to throw oat my disparagement to the services of Lord BeresfOrd. 'Let them be called ever so great, and he would agree Os' it ; but those services had trot gone unrewardect.&ent as They ;night have beem... Wheithe *ifs pieh~,' **d the- HouiegrUntedisiit a pension of £2OOO a year. - htitlft. itione).d aoft quarrel with giving hithlhe'lttle'ititi 40t lnippwrtingthe Peerage horrouriblY icleired.4lteithat,llis Loral , ship was appointed Governer of Jerseys for Whit** received. £144 _ ayear; 'then, as* Lieutenant-Gen& ral, he had £600; and Is 'Colonel of a Regiment, riQO or f:800 more. if he drew hii pay as Lieuesk cant-General, he allowed that the Colonelcy Nrohlti he less ; but he might take the two nether at £lOOO. And last night it appegieilll;the Gawter, that he had entered upon the receiptilli - Ll5OOl year motet making altogether upwards 'of 4:6000 a year. . . : _ He could not help connecting with 'this-chte Borough influence belonging to the Noble Lord's family.=. The public money which the Beresfords receivestsiitit enormous. He should shew, upon some future octal sion, that they were receiviog from the public pm. petty of the Church of Ireland, thousands and tees of.thnusands. At present it was :Sufficient that he should call upon the House to ask Ministers why they had filled up this useless otfice in time of pea c e? and not to grant the supplies until thatquestion was satix, factorily answered. lie looked for the support of many of those Gvntlemen who had never, till now, seen the danger and destructive character of the mea. sures of Government. He wished the House to cons sider whether the British Public did not expect that the public money should be voted freely, aye, and liberally, where the interest and dignity of the State required; . but, whenever it was practicable, with the most rigid 'curtailment and economy. Ile concluded by cnciving a ResolUtion, "That the Commissioners of Military Inquiry, in their Thirteenth Report, made in _ . 1811, eipressed their belief that the office of Lieute nant -General of Ordnance was not necessary or useful. And that the House is of opinion that the recent ap pointment of Lord Beresford is inconsistent with the professions of economy contained in the Speech from the Throne." Mr.. Secretary CANNING' said, that as he under. stood the Honourable Member, he intended this as -an amendment- to the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair. Mr. HUME assented, and 'the original question, together with the amendment, wereput from the Glniir. Mr. Secretary CANNING rose and said, that a hat ever were the merits of the case the lionourable Nlern- her had advanced, and without at ail pronouncing any opinion upon it, he wished the Honourable Mem rber to consider setiously the shape in which he bad put the resent question before the House. It was * . at Most, aicatting 'to his Own chewing, a case not particularly aggravated in its attendant circular , stances; yet he was resorting to the extreme remedy, of stopping the supplies of the year, until a detailed answer .should be given to a question, the subject of: which had nut been even mentioned before the ma ment at which it . ivas thus formally-put. To the Ha nourable Gentleman himself this would perhaps hi no consideration, because he would not admit .tht usage of arliattent as argument against him ; bet, with dre - House itwould be, if it desired to preserve that .caution and regularity which gave dignity an , effect to its proceedings--(Hear, hear, hear).-. It nei , er could sanction the step now proposed to be taken; upon a case which, even according to the Honourable Member's own inculpatory statement, was not pne of those glaring abuses which demanded exeriordinary interference and repro'oation. The Hos.. Gentlethin had said, that he traced in the appoint. ment of Lord Beiesford, an attention to the Parlis mentary influence possessed by the Nob* Lord's family.. Now he thought that any man, when be looked at the services and the' talents of that•Nehle: Lord, and when he considered from whom the at 'pointrnent came,. and the Witty years of glorious taa and victory_ which had united them; sr.!ght have per , ceived a-more generous and eitalted motive for the act. Looking at such an appointment, whatever might h'ave been the objett of GovernMent, Wit; been made by them, the Duke of Wellington was tut last man who could be supposed to have had .any idea of .Parliamentary influence when he offered Lord Beresford the office. But it was perhaps uselees offer *thellon. Gentleman reasoning upon such a and he would therefore meet him with facts. The ttuth was, that the appointment had been first offered to Lord Hopetoun, secondly; to •Lorditill,' and it was not until it had been refused by - bath Aloe ' Lords that the offer was made to Lord Beresfoo.-- No one could suppose that there was any ideavtllta liamentaryinfluence in wishing tnappoint the *fit of these Noble and gallant Lords. It did, thevefotaPP pear a little,suncandid, when they saw in the three presentments one comment motive, to say that the motive of the third was different from the sole riding niCitive Which; .so evidently governed the whole. it was not his intention to enter into any defence of the office itself, as regarded its Absolute necessity ; be• cause, taken as they had been by surprise, it was possible to say of any office—,except, indeed, offline' whose business was manifest 'to all men's eyesr-wbAt were its exact duties, or to detail the necessitY Alt* existence. But, upon a first view, this did not appear to be a case of any great extravagance. It, vies trot ir first appointment, a new. place . rtiaclefor the °cession, but one which bad become vacant, and a vaciincY which had not been suspended.• Gentlemen ought to have given notice of his it tion to bring it before the House; and then it miglit have beeo. met upon the merits, in a separate and distinct disetiisioa• He took - no shime to himself for being ignorant of the nature of the office, when thus talc;ii by sisrprisei He again pressed upon the Hon. Nlernher the extreard character of the measure he had proposed, and hoped that he would think proper to withdraw it;. it not, the sense of the house must necessarily . be titlten. Mr. BROUGHAM regretted that his Hon: fiend should have brought forward so imtiortarit a mottos in such a way, as to allow of any defence' of that against 'which lie contended, on account of Malmo , ner in which the motion had been. introJuceiL 1111 could not help wishing that it s had been postponed, 4 , it was by much too important for being intrincycea so incidentally and casually, as it were. If attitbitf could increase his regret at this, it .vas the lihe defence which had been set up by the ltightll o6 Gentleman cklr. Secretary Canning). Tbaf &lett! • : 1