Star. — London, England, 1803-12-10 00:00:00

r , . mode of providing for the fafety of the country that can be 'Trotted to? If for any of the purpofes I have Rated it thould be neceffary to detach the regular army ; if the enemy, by the advantage cf the winds, Mould elude our fleets, and effect a landing ill Ire land, is there any man who will fay there Yt any fecurity for this Empire, if we cannot let apart a great portion of the force of the kingdom ? If we do not Tender the volunteer force effeetual to every purpofe of military operation, you will fee the experiment made to carry into execelon the threat of the enemy. '1 do craft to the natural valour of Englithmen, but I klo not flatter myfFlf that that force, powerful as it `may appear upon paper, is the one on which we 'ought to rikue the tatety of this Mond, in the event !of our being under the neceflity of fending a great part of the regular force to Ireland. I believe, how 'ever, there is not a Gentleman who hears me, who does not concur with me in the opinion I before Min ted, that we ought to recur td the probability of our forcing the enemy to abandon his defigns- If, by the exertion of our native valour, we thoulil force the French from our :bore, and compel him to 'retreat to his own—if we tbould excite the fpirit of thofe nations on the Continent, at prefent in the mott abjeet hate of fupinenefs—if the contemplation of our fnecefsful refinance fhould route them to at tempt the recovery of what they have 1011, is there any man who would not et ifh we ihould have the means of aCGtting them—if the appearance of a Erni& army ihould be likely to effect a general change in the affa:t sof the Continent—if the prof pat was opened to us of wrelting froth the enemy his Majefty's Eleltoral dominions, inducing a more a-ational fyftem of politics in the North of Europe, and raying to Holland that ancient Government, which the ambition of Fran:e had annihilated, is there any . Gentleman who thinks we thould be doing juftice to the fpirit of the country, if we did not avail ourfelves of the means of obtaining thefe advantages ? If the fum of soo,oool. would give that degree of improvement to the Volunteers, which would enable us to difpenfe with the fervice of the regular army at home, 1 trlllt the Comrnittee will think with me, that fuch an advantage would more than counterbalance any doubt as to the expediency of the =feature. I own that it will be a great fatistadion to me to find that thefe ideas are likely to be affented to by the Committee. It will be important, fluoald it be advifeable at all, that they Ihonld be adopted as (non as potlible. We have gone through that period in which the danger was molt likely to have alfailed as, but we ought not, even in winter, to relax our exertions. At the fame time, without indulging a falfe fecurity, we may be allowed to fuppofe, that, at a pe riod when the ports of Holland are blockaded by the Aaron, the danger of invation from that part of the lef than it has been for fame months pall. We have time then, during the winter, to fupply what is wanted for bringing to perfeCtion our volunteer fyl - in order thtt, before the arrival of fpring, the country may obtain every feeurity it can poffibly derive front fuch a force. If it is right to have thele officers from the regular army, it may be a work of time to arrange them, b.:fore they can produce the advantages to be expetted from them. It will be aeceffary they tbould become acquainted with the officers with whom they are to act, with the quarters, and other matters of detail, equally important. All this fbould he done during the winter futon, in order that when it is practicable to edercife the corps, they &child be in every refpeet complete. With this view, I am anxious on this night to mark the opinion of Parliament ; and if what I have recommended is thought right, I ihould with to afford time, at all events, before the Chriltmas meets, to vote loch ad ditional funts, under the head of Volunteers, as would be neceffary to anfwer all the objets of that great and important fervice. I urge this now, be caufe it is the only part of the fubjea that calls for obferration. There are many other points worthy of being difcuffed at fubfequent periods of the Seffion but this meafare, if it is right, preffes on the Rauh: 'meanie the vote this night will exclude the queftion, for by limiting the espence, it will have no rule. Ad mitting of the espence I have mentioned, there are other points which require confederation, but not re• ferring to fubjeas which require a vote of money, it is unnsceffary to go into them with particularity.— /yen when thefe meafures are taken, or others, for giving, in the SA inliance, all the efficiency of mili tarydifeipline to our volunteer force, it appears tome, that the objet I have in view cannot be carried into efea merely by the initiation that can be given by geld officers, Adjutants, and additional drill days, without . other regulations that (hall enfure the main. taking the volunteers at the numbers which have been thought neceffary, alfo provide for the punau. nifty of attendance, and promote attention, and thofe habits which are nimeffary for forming foldiers., Cer tainly, without having recourfe to martial law, thofe habits my be produced. without which it is impof . hie to render a force like this efficient. I fhould be inclined to chit that when this queflion admits of farther con lideraSon, looking. a r we mutt, to the long duration of this contell, we might have that refpea able fyflem of defence which is neceffary for the fe corky of the country. We have feen what the ardour of the country will do. awakened as it has been by she authority of Parliament • perhaps the fame zeal, with very little more, will be all that i 3 neceffary for the accomplilhatent of that which will be, indeed, a rind triumph for this country. Perhaps w hat I have ;welted will be the only improvement required in the Volunteer Syftem. It may, and I Knit it will, make our haughty enemy renounce his pitied as impraaicable ; and we may fee that which, nest to defeating his ambition, cannot but afford a fource of exultation. Our foe will appear in the eyes of all Europe as one who, after having reconnoitred our Country, has found it unaffailable. But our triumph if not tempered by the recolleition of what may ! a= afterwards, sill be of no avail ; we mull re- D with whom we are contending ; if our erte sr does apparently renounce his defign, let us not, niter he has lulled us into a belief of recarity. give him the opportunity of threatening us a lecond time. and, perhaps, attacking as without that warning we have bad on the prefent meal - son. We mull again eve& to be taken off our guard. Gould we im pinata* let down the force of the country. It may happen that the minds of the people of this coun try mat indulge in Pelf-congratufatlun even at the appearance of the enemy hoping even up the pro. jell of iavalloo. How likely it as that the fpirit which has boa she remit; ei the Came; her the lall ten months, and that tilt Volunteer fylem vrhich has refulted from it, would linger for a time, or nioul. der away, till the period when we fhould have to meet the fudden hut long medit nod attack, without the means of repelling it. I think, therefore, it ought to be a part of the dutyoftheLegiflature, without (hewing any di if tuft of the people or their fpirit, to prepare again IL filch a relaxation of the public ardour. It is no proof of diftrull to think of them, and to diret their zeal by the wifdom of the Great Council of the Nation rather than troll to individual activity to Ripply the duties of Government. If fn, it will be for the Com mittee not to leave it open to the it Terence, that any fenfe of fecurity fhould induce Parliament to difband the force neceffary for the d .fence of the country. — Some meafore, perhaps, ought to be adopted, like the eompulfory claufe of tite tall lemon, which Ihould immediately commence its'operation when the num bers of the Volunteer Corps were deficient. On the principle I have already Rated, of not looking to numbers alone, I Mould fay, that the application of the compulfory Aft Ihould not depend merely on the numbers of the Volunteers, but their complying with chore duties neceffary for maintaining the force in a proper Rate of difcipline. This applies to their punetualattendanee, their orderly and foidier-like con du& The regulations to this effect need be but few and limple,but they thould be firieily enforced by fines, to be rtcovered in a fummary tratiner. It is only tilofe corps which complied with the regulations I am (peaking of, that fhould difcharge a &aria from the effect of the compulfory claufe in the General Defence Alt. One of the rules fhould be, that a Volunteer having entered into a corps, Ihould not be fuffered to depart without providing another of filch an age as fhould render him an adequate fubliitute. I do not (late this as a fubjeft which is fit pelting before the recefs ; but as to the other part, I have only to repeat, that if it is right at all, it is neceffary it fhould be adopted immediately, that we may reap the advantages of it in the fpring. It will be too late after the reed's. I Ihould be happy to hear that it is the intention of the Right Honourable Gentleman to amend the climate ; if not, I fhould with to pro pole a vote of soo,oool. on account of the Volunteer Service. There is another fubjeet which it would be wrong wholly to omit, I mean the queftion of what is the footing in which the Volunteers are to Rand as to the exemptions from the army? It remained doubtful after laft Seflion what were the exemptions ; but as the fubjed now Rands, it is generally underflood that no I Volunteer is entitled to exemption unlefs he has a co.- tificate of fervice for twenty days previous to the 24th of Sept. delivered prior to that time. I underftand it is no exemption if he has ferved, unlefs he has a cer tificate. It was not fuppofed at the time that the certificate was at all neceffary. It was intended to give the exemption• furely then it ought not to be taken away, on account of perfons ignorance of what .is merely a point of form ; a cafe may happen, and I believe has happened. of perfons having exercifed forty days, and not thinking a certificate necelfitry, have negleCted to apply for it. Stippofe they base ferved that number of days before the z4th of Sept. and twenty-one days fince, yet if these are any ballots prior to the z4th of January, I fee no means by which they can be exempted. A ballot takes place to a large amount at Chritimas : I would ads, whether it may not include perfons to whom Parliament held out the hope of exemption ?If it is the difpofition of Isßnilters to let this queltion right, it fhould be done by a (hart Bill before the reefs. there is another point I have underflood it to have been Rated, that thefe ex emptions are not to be given unlefs the volunteer 'hall have been muttered and exercifed with arms. I would put this to the cenifideration of Gentlemen. We under- Rand, that upon fo great a call upon the zeal and pa triotifm of the nation, his Majely's Rotes could not fu l iply a fufflcient number of aims. I am not fur- priced it fhould have been fo, confidering at what a fcale we were adding to our military force. From what were provided - for the Militia, the quantity of arms fent to Ireland, and the fupply of the navy, I am ndt furprifed that Government was unable to give arms to all, but they were all invited to come as Volunteers, and had been accepted, and although they have not had arms, there are many parts of the inftruftions neceffary for a foldicr which may be given without arms. Will it be fuppofed that Volun teers who have been exercifed in marching. and in the different evolutions without arms, are not entitled to the exemptions held out to them ? I am glad to fee, by the manner in which this is received by his Majely's Mit.iflers, that this is not the cafe; certainly it would be extremely inconfiftent with fair dealing. At all events, it is not a thing that ought to be left indißiat, or merely for the fake of adjourn. ing a day or two loaner, put off till February, run ning the chance in the mean time of perfons being drawn at Chrilmas. I flatter myfelf, that before the adjournment, fomething will be done to fatisfy the claims of the VcAtinteers, and the pledges which Parliament has given them. Whatever may be my opi nion on the great variety of fubjeets which grow out of the prefent quellion, I with not to move any thing in the bufinefs of to-night that interferes with the na tional defence. 1 with to feleCt only thole points which are molt preffing, and therefore 1 mean to abflain for the prefent from urging any other except one ; I allude to the force of Sea Fencibles. I agree that if it had been intended to take the Sea Fencibles from among thofe pea-Cons who were liable to the imprefs fervice, it would have been a meafure extremely dan gerous and improper. I Rioted fay alto, that if they were to Rand with pikes in their hinds behind batte ries, they would be a very ridiculous and ureters body of men ; but knowing the nature of that force, and that it is coanpofed of men pecUliarly fitted for die management of gunboats, and whole main objeß is to be employed afloat, I lament there was not more readinefe ufed in carrying into execution their vo luntary offers of fervice. Nothing can be more ufeful than bringing forward for fuch a fervice men who cannot be turned over to the navy ; men who, as pl. lots, are employed in a way which renders it impof. fible for them to be taken from borne without cool derable inconvenience to the trade of the country. — From their habits of life, they mull have a decided fuperiority over every fpecies of naval flotilla, and coofequently again( loch a force as the enemy can bring, the Britilh troops will neceffarily have the ad vantage. I hope the Sea Fencibles will be reckoned among the melt important and mull saluablebranches of the fervice. It is one as little likely to difappoint the capeitation or lower the pride at the country." Mr. Secretary You's Elated, in espianationi many of the Volunteer Corp h: - ..ialrezolv Mictant•J' of ileit own, who were fufficiently qua:ified for that office, without being paid by Government; that there were not at this time Co many field r..gietts capable , of ;alive fervice as Come pet Cons may imagine, and that it would be an extravagant expenditure ft* Go vernment to allow permanent pay for the perfor mance of twenty-four days duty. Such expense, ho obferved, would be to a confider:o.le amount, and need not neceffarily be difeuffed, as the returns made of the different Volunteer Corps were not yet correet enough to have it reduced to any thing like an ac. curate eflimate. In the maritime counties a very great number of Volunteer bodies had their Cervices accepted, as inßances of which he mentioned, that in Devonffiite they amounted to 12,000 men, in Hemp (hire to ic,ooo, in the Cinque Ports to soon. With regard to the doubts refpe&ing the exemptiuns, he apprehended that they had been occationed by not carefully attending to the AEt. The certificates of fervice were rendered neceffary, in order to avoid a number of abufes ; and whether they were given fur being trained in arms or not, was in a great meafure dependent on thedifcretionof the commanding officers. Mr. WINIMAM Paid a few words in explanation of fome fubordinate points of his fpeech, which he con ceived.to have been mifunder Rood. Mr. T. GRENVILLE fupported the opinion of his Hon. Friend, ( Mr. Windham) in oppofition to his Right lion. Relation, (Mr. Pitt), and contended that the amount of the army, Rated by the Secretary of State, was by no means fufficient for the defence of the country ; and I:sid that a volunteer force was I not adequate to the defence of the kingdom. Mr. PITT could not queftioa the expediency of completing, at fool; as poffible, the regular army, j but did not concerve that meafure fo important as the I cafe which he had pointed out. Lord CASTLEREAGH entered into a very elaborate fupport of the arguments offered by Mr. Yorke againk Mr. Windham and Mr. Grenville, and contended there was no fort of foundation for the diflorted view I wloch had been drawn by thole Gentlemen, of the Rate of the recruiting fervice; on the contrary, he I contended, that within the Ilion (pace of two months, I ending on the t Il of December, dining which period I only the recruiting had gone forward fur the troops of the line from the Army of Referve, no lefs than 7Soo men had enlilled, a number unparalleled within any limilar period, from the molt zealous efforts of the ordinary recruiting fervice. He admitted that the high bounties for the Militia fisbllitutes had operated in fume degree to diminifh the ordinary fervice of re cruiting for the line, hut nq more than in the pro- i portion of one third part. A Right Hon. Gentleman I had laid, that the volunteer fyllem had locked up the I means of recruiting the army, and of increafing the public force; in refutation of which, he Rated, that an Army of Referve had been railed, to the number of 4.0,000 men, during the operation of the volunteer fyllem ; which fyllem, inflead of locking up and im.% peding the means of encreating the public force, in his mind confiderably forwarded thofe meaftires ; as, by familiarifing a raft number of men withmilitary habits, and the ufe of arms, who otherwife would never have Thought of a military life, it would tend to excite thole feelings, and ftimulate that fpirit moll likely to induce them to enlift in the army. He next proceeded to vindicate the charges againft his Majefty's Minifters, who were wrongfully accufed of inability and laffi tude, for ufing the means put into their hands by Parliament, and for ufing thole means which were neceffary for public defence; in, contradiction to which he Rated, that linen the breaking out of the war the public force of this country hadbeen increaf ed to a degree utterly beyond any former example of hiltory in both countries. The volunteer force in England, of effeitive men in arms, rank and file. he Rated at 340.000 ; the volunteer force of Ireland 70,000 ; making together four hundred and ten thoufand men! The militia in England he computed at soopoo men, and that in It eland I Spoo men, mak ing together jpshooo,exclufive of as,ooo lea fencibles, which he conceived might be fairly reckoned amongft the land forces, as they were defined to as either by lea or land for the defence of our coati. It was there. fore, he trotted, impoffible the Houle would admit that charge to be fair againft the Minifters, who had in the Ibort period of eight months increafed the ef feetive force of the country to 600,000 men, exclufive officers. It might be objected that Come part of the volunteer force was unarmed, bat though it might be cottfidered a delicate point for explanation, he had no objection to a candid flatement. The Mi litia and Regular. of Ireland amounting to so,ooch and Volunteers to 70,000 men, were, he (aid, com pletely armed. In England the Regulars, Militia in. eluded, amounted to t 32,000, and 222,000 Volun teers, making in the gra' 353,000 men; and includ. ing the number in Ireland would make 470h000 cotn pletely armed and accoutred with &clocks, betides which there are ay.ooo Sea Fenc:bles armed with pikes, and 95,000 pikes have been ifued by the Ord nance in England for additional Volunteers. Betides which, the Government were in poffeffion of dr,tru of arms for any number of troops which the exigency of the times may render it neectiary to arm.— That having now taken a view of the land forces of our country, the pieure of our naval force was equally flattering. Our fhipti of war formed a force of 469 for the defence of our coati, to which was added a flotilla of 800 gun boats, amounting together to i3oo (hips, great and (mall, to encounter the enemy at leas ' and with Each a force, however formidable to the enemy, he trolled no room could be left for delpon. aency on our part. On the contrary, there was the fulleß confidence for ultimate and complete viaory. If there was cattle to commend the fpirit of the peo t ple at large, he felt a pride alfo in declaring the fpiri of public bodies was not kfs praife worthy. The Eaft India Company bad found twenty (kips of the clefs of frigates, affording a formidable aid; and the public fpirit of the Trinity Honk had contributed Co effec tually to the impregnable defence of die Thames, as to render that frontier in a perfea Rate of fecurity.-- Nor had he lefs canfe to mire another important Board in its exertions for public fecurity, namely the Board of Ordnance : it was well known what diffi• cisity exifted in that Board to render this branch of the public force effeaually formidable, in the increafe and equipment of that blanch of public affairs, on account of the arduous Rodin of military education neceffary to officers who compofed that corps; hews' happy to add, that in the (pace of eight mouthstions the commencement of the lag war. the number of fir. Wiry regiments bad boo doubled, as well mama, . ter :.mmt:r...ticr.. He concluetd by ici:apitultatittg the leaJ:ng ftAtorei of his liatem:lo, expreffed fineere hope that the Btitilh oaL ss.;;lld he handed &Awn to ftitu:c ages, As a monument 1.1 the virtue of the Britifh nation., and its fortitude and vigour for the maintenance of its freedom. Mr. Fox—" Sir, before I proceed to that which forms the bulinefs of the day, I Mall make a tew obfervations un the gloomy p' dages, the melan choly defetiptions %his which the Noble Lord who has jolt fat down, has thought proper to conclude his fpcech. The! Noble Lord has Rated, that in his opinion, the pref:itt war is lt':ely to have a long continuance, and every body kuows how much of the willies and defigns of men enter into the compels fition of their opinions ; however, he has argued as if the expenditure of tilt country nicit be increafed, jail in proportion to the degree of profperiry which it may at any time enjoy, ante ti.at nor pr.rlperity ren ders it neceltary for us to become a milliary nation : in a word, that the prefent military arrangements are to be permanent, and that they are to " grow with our growth, and Rrengthen with our ltrength," with all the expences and encumbrances that accompany them. Of this, according to the Noble Lord, our profperity is the caufe ; if fo then, our profperity is produCtive of a great misfortune ; but I than not dwell longer on this fingular opinion, farther than to fay, that it holds out a very aftlieting profped to the country, and the Right Hon. Gentleman under the gallery (Mr. Pitt) has Rated, that the profpeet before us is the only thing to which we lhould look under the prefent eircumilances ; but I am not of the fame opinion with that Right Hon. Gentleman, that a re trofped of the paR does not form as properly the rub jea for examinaticm on this day, as any (peculation upon or provifion for the future ; indeed I do not fee how the latter is to be j ugly confidered, if we put out of our view all recolleEtion of the former. if we deternrioe to forget the paR, we literally determine not to profit by experience; but as I Paid before, X (hall not take the Right Hon. Gentleman's advice.--. The Noble Lord has reviewed the condo& of his col leagues fince the Lill lemon, but 1 shall go farther back. 1 'hall refer to the proceedings of Minillers at the time the meafures which have been commented upon this evening were propofed and dilculted. The Right Hon. Gentlemen fay this night, in reply rn the argrimcnts of the Right Hon. Gentleman on the fame bench with me (Mr. Windham 1, with which arguments I mail pert,.:Etly concur, that their fyf. ten: was at the period I alluded to approved of by Parliament. But even in, is that a fit objection to the difipprobation now expiated of that fyltem Since ' that fyllem originated, tire lionfe has had the advan tage of experience to judge of its nature and effeEts, and is that experience in its favour? How (hall we form any fair opinion of it but from that experience; and yet the Right Honourable Gentleman under the gallery would, if his oppofirion to any retrofire& were ttended to, entirely preclude us ft om confolting that riterion. In all points of legillation it is cur obvious duty to confider the mode in which the laws are to be executed ; but in the point which relates to the fyftena now under difctiffion, the manner of execution is the principal thing. We hate heard that the machinery of this fyaeln was bad, and certainly in my opinion, nothing could be worfe, except the views which in duced the propnfition of it. And (hall it then be laid, that although the machinery has been found, from univerfal experience, to be fo very exceptionable, the fyftem is Rill to go on, truly becaufe Parliament, in the courfe of laft Seffitrn, approved of it; but the pe. rind which has fince chapter), has proved that it is not calculated to promote the °Ned Minitlers profefs to have in view, namely, the vigorous profecution of the war. Thefe remarks I mean principally to apply to the fyltem of the Volunteers, which forms the moll pro. minent feature in the prefent debate, and the qneltion with refpeet to which has been putonvery fair grounds by the Right Honourable Gentleman on thefaute bench with me, and with all whole fentitnents on the fable& I entirely agree. That Right Honourable Gentleman Rated that he confidered that in the prefent cries the defence of the country would be better confulted, and the attack of the enemy better provided for, by the increafe of our regular land force, than by t he esuho. dying of fo many Volunteers. He alto Rated that the Volunteers were rather fo many men withheld from our effeitive force, than fo many added to it. He did not, however, fay any Itch thing as that which was of. cribed to him by the Noble Lord, that the Regulate were the onlyarm y which hewoald I ecomasend to berai. fed in the prefent fitu at ion of affai rs, but that thedeferip. lion of trcopihe would propole to be added to the regu. lar'army would be very diff..rent from that which the Volunteer fyßem had colleßed. That the patriotic feeling and the martial ardour which the Volunteers have manifefled are entitled to the higheß praife. no man could doubt; but the (env:smuts:4 tbeßight Hon. Gentleman and mine alto is. that this ardour might be much better directed and much better employed in another way. How differently, however, does this Right Honourable Gentleman and the Right Hon. Gentleman under the gallery (Mr. Pitt) confider this inllitution, and the manner in which k may and ought to be ufed for the public fatty 1 Though the views of both are die into, yet both agree in think. ing the Volunteers, according to their indent conaj. ration, exceedingly imperfea. The Right Hon Gen tleman on the fame bench with me does not deny that even as they now Itand they may be ufeful, bat main tains that a. greater degree of utility might be derived from the fame men under a different fyftem, that they are not an adequate fabftitute for the regular army. nor fit to alt with them. The Right Hon. Gentleman under the gallery coalmine the volunteers as laying the foundation of a future military affocia. rim, upon which the country might be able to rely for its defense, in cafe it fliould become adviikble, in the cowls of the war, to fend all our difpufable force oat of the country. What l men who. according to the letter of the Ati, are only required to fubmit to so days dikipline is the coin& of the yeas in order to exempt them from being balloted for the &Elide, and to flicker them from regular ferrite and martial law, to be reckoned upon as likely to become iu any res. (unable time qualified to !apply the plate of a regular army, and to have the fafety of the conntry committed to their proteelion ? Really I do nn fully underhand the tneaning ache Right Hon. Gentleman oo t bi s point. It Crean to be his view that the voluateere are hereof. ter to be converted into fortieths:lg lib* a difpafable regular force. Such a thing is not within the piatioa of the bill upon which the volunteer (Oasis graisded, I certainly do net le anderftead it y nod 1