Star. — London, England, 1822-05-02 00:00:00

• ' • o f g esteritat anct they had also-estalislished the Sink- ioi at tie me' eft! ? 9f t h e c unt% et ‘ tompariti l w i th. lug Fund I* the rellif of litisieritY. .Tfie old cred i-1 its expenditure, putting aside what exatid have bein tors had'nes 7 tighr to demand a Sinking Fund of us.„ set apart for a Sinkin g Fund, he had &old that the Thee 'had higher objects in view in establishing it.—: last four years - gave a us of: Revenue to the Be could not better illustrate this than by referring amount of four malice.. .1e had put a paper into to tare greet measure of this Session—the reduction the bands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the of the Five per Cents. And he called upon them to second day of the Session which proved this fact. But state, if they h a d ta k en awa y t h e si n ki ng . F un d a f ew while . such had been the state of the Revenue as coin years ago, as recommended by some of the Hon. pared with the expenditure of the country, the Chan- 1 Gentlemen opposite, they would have had any pro. cellos of the Exchequer by borrowing money unne spect of being able to reduce the higher rate of inte- cessariiy as he 'contended, to keep up a nominal rest? The 11on. Member for Bristol also said, that Sinking Fund, had incurred a great and useless ex-1 this plan would have the effect of taking from under perm; and by this course of proceeding, the 'sum or their controul the whole of the superannuations.— £4,800,000 had been lost to the country-{Hear, hear). This was not the fact. Th e C rown wou ld st ill have The conduct of the Ministers was most inconsistent. t he power as before, and Parliament would possess In the first place, they called on the House to establish the power of controuling the grants of the Crown in and preserve a clear Sinking Fund of £5,000,000, %% s l at regarded this five millions. His Right Hon. that those who might come after them should be ena yriend said to the contractors,“ I will give you such bled to meet any emergency that might arise, and an annuity it you will enable me to pay the burdens then the Noble Lord came down. and called upon on the nation yearly of such a description." They them not to mind posterity, but relieve themselves at -mere of c .urse to have some profit for this; and there the present moment and throw the burden on the fu ended the . hole mystery of the case. The Chancel- cure. He hoped, whatever was done, the contract for of tne Exchequer would have to make a bargain would be openly made, and that no favour would be with the monied Gentlemen, and he must make the strewn to any of the parties, and that no private bar b!..,t bargain he could. The parties with whom he gain should be thought of—(Hear). He wished the tees e i might gain, o r they might lose. In the latter country to be relieved from the pressure of its pre case, the idea of the Hon. Gentleman; that at the end sent taxation. But he wished this to be done to the of the 45 years the country would be more in debt amount now proposed by treating with the Commis-. t h a n it this plan had not been brought forward, must sioners of the Sinking Fund. This would be attended prove incorrect. At the end of 45 years, however, with less trouble than would attach to any other the atteueies must end, and then the country would mode of proceeding, and the beneficial result would be relieved from the burden, having paid less at the be the same. Had there been no Sinking Fund, the beginning, but more at the end of the period, than it country would have been 35 millions less in debt. would otherwise have had to pay. In answer to the Should the House unfortunately sanction the mea observations made by the Hon. Member for Bristol, sure, the whole should be done by open competition. he sheaved that the annuities to be granted would be The half-pay and pensions had nothing to do with saleable like any kind of stock now in existence, and the measure. cousequeialy the Contractors would be able to dispose The Marquis. of LONDONDERRY was surprised of any portion of them at the market price. Ic fol- at the manner in which some Gentlemen in that House therefore, that the stipulated payments might changed their views of particular subjects. He had he itiztilarly made without being furnished from the that night found a host of champions starting up for o the parties who made the first advances.— the Sinking Fund. He denied that the proposition The y would be paying for sixteen years without the before the House went to touch the Sinking Fund at d ia nze Any return being made, but they might all. What was the state of the case? They had a "I so l ate on returns within that period, as in the case Sinking Fund which was assumed to amount to five of any ordinary loan. The parties who would be millions. This was to be tied up to increase with treated with un this subject would of course have to compound interest. Was it to be maintained, then, csnsi ,cr the probability of the continuance of peace, that the principle of that Sinking Fund was invaded, aid the changes which might take place is the interest because it was proposed to. be augmented by com of money. It a long war should occur, and a change pound interest, instead of simple interest ? They then take place in the interest of money, the speculation found a charge of £5,000,000 on account of the dead might turn out more or less advantageous for them. expense growing out or the late war. This the Right But in this matter the Gentlemen of the mom ) , mar- Hon. Gentleman had considered in the nature of ket might solely be left to calculate for themselves; debt. It was like a debt in this instance, that the but he thought that his Right Honourable Friend the faith of the nation was pledged to make good die Chancellor of the Exchequer, with the assistance payments due to the individuals whose names were which would be at his command, might also be on the list, but, strictly speaking, it was not before 'rated to negotiate this matter with them, in the them as a debt in any other sense. It was a charge confideat expectation that he would endeavour to ob- which was covered by solid revenue, and the means tarn a proper.price for the annuities. If this could of meeting it were already in existence. Now he not be obtained from those with whom in the first would ask if Gentlemen meant to say, that as the eistance he might think proper to treat—if they annuities fell in, if the present plan had not been would not give what he considered he had a brought forward, they would have handed over their eght to obtain, there were other means within his amount to the Sinking Fund ? Instead of this, he ;each by which he might afford the country the re- apprehended it would be given to the Public, as it lief now contemplated. He defended the plan of rested with the House to remit taxes, or to give it to spreading the charge over the ensuing forty-five the Fund, as might seem most expedient. To him it rears, and thought that in this instance their conduct appeared fair that the charge of the dead expense was not only justifiable, but that it was liberal towards shoold be divided in the manner proposed between posterity, considering that the present generation the present generation and posterity. Did Gentlemen had already done, and the immense burdens which it mean to say the slightest benefit was likely to be bad submitted to bear during the continuance of the given to the Fund from the annuities falling in ? war—(Neer, hear, heer).—He understood the cheer Were they bound to do so after acting as they had which had been raised. He would not thus argue done on the noble principle of saving posterity from with a Learned Gentleman who had joined in it, the burden of the late war, to an extent never before whether or not that war had been just or necessary ; acted up to in any country, by submitting to a pro but assuming that such was its character, and that perty tax, which had taken from the people not less the dead expense Row under consideration grew out than 150,000,0001.? Was it because they had done of it, .he Would contend, that taking upon ourselves this, that after establishing a clear Sinking Fund the average charge growing out of a like number of of 5,000,0004 they were bound to sacrifice to that years, we were entitled to call our posterity to bear Sinking Fund any advantages that might arise from a portion of it. If we now took upon ourselves from sources totally different. He thought that as the an two to three millions, we took upon ourselves more nuities, on falling in, were not to be carried to the than the country would in all probability have to Sinking Fund, nothing could be mote clear than that bear at any futere time, as it was not likely that it the present plan did not at all touch upon the Sink woult he sin called upon to bear the charges of ing Fund. It was, then, for the House to decide such operations as had marked the late war, or that whether it would be serviceable to divide the charge such burdens would again be thrown on the country between the present generation and posterity. He as had grown out of the twenty-five years of warfare was convinced that acting so they would not deserve in which the country had been engaged. the reproach of posterity ; and therefore the only Mr. H. BRIGHT defended what he had previously question now was, in what manner could the surplus adeariced, and maintained that the Resolutions now revenue of the country be best assisted ? Ile said beer e the House would, if carried, preclude the this with respect to what was now called the dead House from allinture inquiry into, and revision of, expense. But if in every year a quantum of charge the state of the Superannuation Li-t. was likely to arise, bearing any proportion to that Mr. HCSKISSON explained, and referred the Hon. which was now the subject of consideration, he should Genttemail to the end of the second Resolution,which consider the proposed transfer of the burden as a du left the Supet emulation and Pension Lists open to bums, if not an objectionable lineof policy; The pre such regulation as Parl aament might think necessary sent charge was great beyond anything known before. in any particular case. It was, as he had stated, sui generis—that, he believed, Mr. FLUME thought the Resolutions before the was the expression he had used, and therefore poste- House sly tended to mislead and perplex, and that city was sufficiently protected against any similar it would be better to put them out of their considera- burthen. A way was thus opened which would not Lion altogether, and borrow the money wanted on be open to them on ordinery occasions, to relieve the account of the pensions at once. The present scheme country from part of the expense under which it at was, in fact, raising a loan by way of annuity. This present laboured. It had been asked,what had lives was the case at present, as we had a heavy debt which to do with the consideration of this subject ? He it was wished to disnis:sh, and therefore a Sinking sheered that it was necessary to refer to the life-tables, Fund of £3,000,000 had been established. It was at in order to ascertain the sum that would be wanted the same time wished to diminish the present expen- to complete the operation now contemplated, and to diture. In consequence of this, it was proposed to regulate die terms on which it should be obtained. spread the expense of the Half-pay and Pension List The House had now to determine whether it would over the next five and forty years. This was, in fact, bear the average expense of the existing claims for creating a new debt; and the question of his Honour- forty-five years, or whether they should continue to able Friend (the Member for Portarlington), whether bear the whole charge, subject to such diminution, as at the end of that time we should not be more in debt, would occur front the annuities falling in. It was if this plan was carried into effect, than we should for the House to decide on this question ; but he had have been if it had never been brought forward, re- not expected that the moment when they had tied up ruined unanswered. To create a new Stock was a a Sinking Fund of 5.000,0001. the arrangement pro. measure of some difficulty. It was found that the posed, with respect to time dead expense, would bed Public would not take so soon to a new Stock as to opposed by those who wished to pull down the whole an old one, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer fabric of public credit—(Hear, hear). —[low these could raise money easier by the Three per Cents. champions for the Sinking Fund had been induced than the Three and a Half per Cents. He therefore to come forward he could not well understand, but thought this " delicate and extraordinary transac- their aid was not mach wanted, as, without them, the don,' as it was called, would be entered upon tinder Sinking Fund was going on very tolerably. He was very disadvantageous terms. If a measure like that surprised at the alliance thus formed between the now under consideration were to be adopted, the friends and the opponents of the Sinking Fund. Who best cour s e would be to go to the Commissioners timer it was a holy alliance or an unholy alliance, he of the Sinkih A Fund to negotiate the arrangement. knew not and he cared not—(Laughter)—but, going s—ln a former instance, by negotiating part of a loan on as they had begun, lie felt assured that the pi mei with them, three millions had been saved to the coun- pies on which Parliament had hitherto acted, would try ; and had the whole of the loan, instead of half of carry the country through its present difficulties. it, been so negociatvd, instead of the sum he had men- Mr. GRENFELL maintained, that whatever might tio t ted, sirmillions would have been saved. On look- be the merits or demerits of the present plan, et did •„ k . Lord EBRINGTON considered the present plait to make against the principle of the Sinking Fund, as it went to relieve ourselves by throwing part of oar pre sent burdens on posterity. If acted upon, he thought , it would be better to contract with the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund. He wished to see the country. relieved immediately from its present weight . of taxa tion by means of that Fund. If he could not get all that he wished for, there was no reason why he should not take all he could get. He therefore felt bound to support the present measure. Mr. MABERLY commented on the inconsistency of establishing a Sinking Fund of £5,000,003, to re duce our debt, and then coming to Parliament to create a new debt. If the plan were acted on at all, he and those who were with him contended, that the most economical mode would be to have recourse to the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund. He main tained, that the People had a right to be relieved from the taxes which they had till now sustained ; and this ought to be effected by the only legitimate course, namely, a reduction of public expenditure. Mr. W. WILLIAMS stated, that to a rea l efficient Sinking Fund he was friendly. But all th(Sink ing Funds in this country, instead of reducirk had ad led to the public debt. At the end of 45 years the debt would be more than if L:2,200,000 had been taken from the Sinking Fund. The object of Ministers in this novel plan of theirs was to conciliate the Coun try Gentlemen under the pretence of economy. Mr. BENETT entiiely concurred in the proposed measure, which did not affect the Sinking Fund. He was happy to think, that in the present Session there would be a reduction of taxation to the amount of £1,800,000. The measure had his approbation. Mr. MONCK was inclined to support the measure, as equivalent to a reduction of taxation. But, per haps, to purchase the half-pay of many of the young Officers, would be a more eligible plan, which many of them would willingly sell, as they had at present no chance of rising in their profession. Mr. W. SMITH asked, if the calculation formed a part of the Resolution? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER an swered in the negative, and explained the nature of the calculation. M:. BROUGHAM said, there was nothing which had tended to alter the impression which he had to med on the first assumption of the plan. Ministers had not even attempted to deny or disguise that this plan was in direct contradiction to the Sinking Fund ; it was in contradiction, in diminution of that Fund. Every hundred pounds, every pound which it affected to save was just so much taken from that Fund. The Noble Lord had gotten hold of the Sinking Fund in one quarter, and in another the Chancellor of the Exchequer was to pay it away. Thus the sum came from the same purse; the Public always paid the piper—it was the same operation under different names. he Noble Marquis had helped to illustrate the iden tity of this glorious scheme for the relief of posterity, and that other equally glorious scheme, which went to throw upon posterity a part of the burdens under which the Public were now suffering. The present scheme was a commutation of an annuity on lives, into a fixed annuity for the period of forty-five years. Government had to go into the market for this.— They were to pay £2,800,000 annually for an annuity which now was £5,000,000, which would, according to the calculation, be two millions about twenty years hence, and which, at the end of forty-five years, would be reduced to nothing. Could it be doubted, that during the last half of that period posterity would pay a considerable sum, and that during the laq years of it they would.pay 122,200,000? Let Hon. Gentlemen contrast this with the Sinking Fund, and they would find that we were burdening posterity on the one hand, and relieving them on the other; and all this for no apparent purpose save that of paying the expenses of management in both cases. The ope. rations were simultaneous, and so their joint effect was nothing but throwing upon the present genera tion the expense of management. This was the way to mystify, to wrap up the import of a matter in the abstrusions of arithmetic, but it v, as not the way to relieve the country. Relief must, however, he af forded; and he trusted that all the . parade of arith n:etic would not blind the few Members who were present. He could not help regretting that that num ber was so few : but it really seemed that the anxiety of Members to fly from their duty in that House, was in the exact ratio of the importance of that duty. He trusted, however, that the few whom the importance of the present question had not been able to scare away—those few who had deviated from the prac tice—the modern practice of Parliament, would not allow themselves to be taken in by the mystification of the Noble Marquis, and the arithmetic lithe Right Hon. Gentleman. Mr. WILSON did not think that the plan would trench on the Sinking Fund; besides, the annuity was to be bought at a peace price, and as we had a chance of two or three wars during the forty-five years, an advantage would thence be derived. Mr. RICA RDo—‘ , If this plan of selling the half pay on a permanent annuity were to be so advan tageous, why not sell in like manner the whole -et penses of the Army, as the advantages of such an arrangement respecting it would be of far more im portance in the event of war ?" Mr. MABERLY—. , Why not extend it to the in terest of the tiational debt, which, at the same rate, would produce an annual saving of fifteen millionsr Mr. BROUGHAM—" Would the Chancellor of the Exchequer have any objection to extend it to those pensions and Ministerial salaries which were held upon nearly the same terms as the halt-pay?" The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, the House had been told how Honourable Members ought to do their duty in Parliament. He very much doubted whether coming clown to the House about nine o'clock, when Gentlemen had just taken a good din ner, was the correct point of duty. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had entered the House at that time to mystify and obstruct the course of public dis cussion. There certainly could notisea better example of irregular attendance, than coming down at nine o'clock to complifin of the absence of others who had taken share in the deflate at the commencement, and .had left the House--(Laughter).—The Hon. and ..-.• . wb;cl) tiereett - thenieone 61 - eteniticheieftfiketilNi 'which moot ol%Hiss. IMltadj which .wasipprecisted by „ad terms Oil the House, when the Hon. and Leatnes,l Member was mid h a should .knjoying the. pleasdris of the tabirt,—V4uglber); Hiis • till these Right Hon. Friend had given ample ea r ianatiott, but the Han. and Learned drieuxbe r agil ; : d edraoaltepn h teeliran, I p u l grgi ying 43 th n e a ne th w e p il lan n.. t a o nd th iae e would not be attended with benefit. Did and Learned Member never hear of the mat, overloaded by elem . of commodity ? His Right Hon. Friend knew too much of his outn business to be tempted by the recommendation of any Honour , able Member to go with 15 or £90.000,000 of Stock into the market. The Noble Marquis recommended the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, if he was desirous of assisting in the execution of public business, and of doing his duty faithfully, to attend at five o'clock, and hear the argument, and not confuse the debate by reading lectures to Hon. Members, who, having discharged. their duty, had left the House before the Hon. and Learned Gentleman came. Mr. BROUGHAM said, he dtd not doubt the Noble Lord would have been glad to find him absent during the whole debate ; but the truth was, he was in the House at five o'clock, and remained till half , past six. Seeing then there was no prospect of the subject coming on,.he retired for a short period of time—(A laugh).—He believed he was not absent more than two hours and a half(Latighiell, —and during that time, he left his Hon. Friend the Mem , ber for Worcester, who he was sure would not suffer the debate to loie anything by his temporary absence. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—I should have lOtt nothing by it--(A laugh . ). Mr. HUSKISSON observed, that the Hon. Mem ber who was to take care of the debate said he knew nothing about it—(Loud laughter). Mr. BROUGHAM then said, he had received no answer to his question respecting the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make the plan ex tend to other branches of public debt and expenditure. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER— " If the Honourable and Learned Gentleman bad at tended at the commencement of the debate he would have known my reasons for not making it extend be , yond the object in view.' The Resolution was then agreed to. The 3d and 4th Resolutions were Carried without oppOsition. Upon the fifth, to empower the Treasury to contract with any Corporate Body or others for carrying the plan into effect, Mr. Huse moved an Amendment, giving the C missioners of the Sinking Fund the power to contract instead of the Treasury: but as be did not insist upon his Amendment, the Resolution was agreed to. The House then resumed, and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. SUPPLY. The House then went into a Committee of Supply, in which the CHANCELLOR of the•EXCHIiQUER moved, that the sum of £89,000, British, be granted to his Majesty to pay off the Irish Five per Cent. Holders, who had not taken Four per Cents Stock.—The sum was voted. Mr. III:ME asked, whether it was intended to pay off all contracts bearing five percent. interest? It was improvident to pay five per cent. when money could be obtained for four per cent, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated that, with some exceptions, these contracts had been paid off. The House staving resumed, the Report was ordered to be received on Monday. M r.II U M E asked whether the accounts between the East Indio Company and Government were to be laid on the table? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the ac counts would be laid on the table when ready. They were at that time under examination. The House then adjourned at ONE o'Clock. EXTRACT OF THE PROPOSED RESOLUTIONS FOR REGULATING THE CORN TRADE (MARQUIS OF LONDONDERRY.) That his Majesty direct Exchequer Bills, to an amount not exceeding one million, to be advanced under certain restrictions, whenever the average price of wheat shall be under 60s. per quarter, upon such corn, the growth of the United Kingdom, as shall be deposited in proper warehouses. That it is expedient to permit the holders of foreign corn now in warehouses, to have the same ground into flour, for the per pose of exportation, under such regulations as may guard against the introduction of the said corn for borne consumption. That foreign corn, meal, or flour, shall be permitted to be imported into the United Kingdom, for borne consumption, whenever the average prices of wheat shall be at 70s. per quar ter; rye, peas, or beans, 461. per quixter; barley, bear, or bigg, 555. per quarter ; and oats, 255. per quarter. That whenever foreign corn, meal, or flour, shall be admissi ble, there shall be levied and paid the duties hereafter to be determined. That foreign corr, meal, or flour, may be taken out of ware house for home consumption, whenever the average price of wheat shall be at 70s. per quarter; rye, peas, or beans, 46a. per quarter; barley, bear, or bigg, 355. per quarter; and oats 25g. per quarter. That no such foreign corn, ereal, or flour, shall be taken out of warehouse, unless there he previously paid upon such corn, meal, or flour, the several duties to be hereafter determined. That any corn, meal, or flour, of the growth, produce, or ma nufacture of any British Colony or Plantation in North Ame rica, may be taken out. of warehouse for home consumption, whenever wheat shall be 595. per quarter; rye, peas, and beans, 395. per quarter; barley, bear, or bigg, 30s. per quarter; and oats 90s. per quarter; and such corn, meal, or flour, shall be liable, on being taken out of warehouse, to the duties to be here. after resolved on. (ER. HUSKISSON.) The ports were shut against the importation of Foreign Wheat, for home consumption, in the month of February, 1819, the average price being then 7Ps. 7d. a quarter, and that they have remained closed ever since; the average price of the year 1820 having been 455. 7d.—of the year 1821, 543. and of the first three months of the year 1822, 475. 9d. a quarter. In the year 1819, the quantity of British Wheat imported into the port of London was 7.00,416 quarters; in 1820, 399,009 quarters • and in 1821;404,8:4S quarters ; and that during the whole o f this period of three years, the supply in alt the principal markets of the United Kingdom, appears uniformly to have ex- • ceeded the demand, notwithstanding the wants of an increasing population, and other circumstances, which have probably pro duced an increased annual consumption. This excess of the supply above the demand must have arisen either from an extent of corn tillage more than commensurate to the average consumption of tke country ; or from a succession of abundant harvests upon the same extent of tillage ; or from the coincident effect of both these causes. In the fluctuation of seasons, the effect of the present Corn Late must be to expose, sometimei, the grower of corn to the Ione& incident to an over-redundant produce; and at other time, the consumer to the pressure inseparable from dearth,--that the free importation of foreign corn, if wanted to a great amount, must be precarious in proportion as the demand is unusual; and that against the former evil the law affords to the grower no relief whatever. The alternate evils of redundancy and scarcity cannot fall to be aggravated by the alternate excitement and depression to which the agriculture of the United Kingdom must be exposed, under the present system of our Cord 1..1%s s. Another evil effect of this system is, 5 0 ••'- hizardous and gambling spectate' must involve great losses to the That it is expedient to provi. under bond in the United Kingdom, consumption, upon the payment soon as the average price of wheat and that at the expiration of three admission of warehoused wheat much sooner as the average price • • _ e . . . . not islet& tho.prin tra c t e c t.of the Sin Atnd, it le ft ted. The - 1 he woo:re st to aim, would be , get veto which the arrangement might be task! :1 reserve what Ischad to say on the sobjett till were known. . • ticketed by • ember was ;kir); His nation, but ' .Ar its The lem.m, ap- :nsit7n List, d the Hon. arket being His Right business to ty Honour- - DO of Stock :ommended vas desirous [siiress, and five o'clock, the debate , ho, having e before the : doubt the • 1 1 I him absent was. he was 10.4141.• • • t Strni is, to cOnvert farming into a • : anon, which, however managed, capitals engaged In agriculture. vide that the foreign wheat now :dont, may be taken out for home • • / it of a duty of iSs. ktuarter, set , • lest ehall exceed 70s. a q?aiter • f ree months from the date of su ch I t into home consumpdoo, or so rice shall exceed 80s. a gustier, I ‘ ll