Star. — London, England, 1821-04-04 00:00:00

, . his twin part i ,he wantedmo.additional securities from the RomanCitholics for if he entertained any doubts of their loyalty as good subjects, he should not con sent to grant them any privileges. But he saw that the Protestants still entertained apprehensions on the subject, 'although they in a great degree had over come their prejudices. Yet, as apprehensions and prejudices did still exist, he conceived that the Ro man Catholics ought to make some sacrifices to those apprehensions, and even to the prejudices of their Protestant L.:How-subjects. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that interesting as this subject was, he should not at present take up the time of their Lordships, by entering into any dis cussion upon it. But having carefully read over this Bill, in which he found that it imposed certa , n con ditions with respect to persons holding the office which he then had the honour to fill, it became a question with him, whether he should consent to such an alteration as was now proposed to be made in the Church and State by this measure. Their Lordships must recollect the part he had already taken in the discussions that took place in that House on the sub ject of granting further privileges to Roman Catho lics ; and, great as was the respect which he owed tie the deliberations and decisions of the other House of Parliament, .he had no difficulty in saying, that his opinions were not altered in the slightest degree, not svitlistanding the passing of this measure in the other House. He still entertained the opinion, that the granting of the proposed privileges would be incon sistent ssith the great interests of the country ; and, therefore, he could never consent to suca a Bill. He must also say, that it would be impossible to graft, any modifications on the Bill, that could induce him to agree to it. The Bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Tuesday, the 10th instant; on which day the Lords were ordered to be sum a:none:l.—Adjourned. }must , . OF COMMONS. As men as the Stew Kea took the Chair, Dlr. ELLIS rose to correct a rnistatement which had ap peared in some of the Public Papers, respecting what had fallen tram him the night before in the course of debate. Ile was aware that the mistake was quite unintentional, for he was quite satisfied with the general accuracy, impartiality, and ability, with which the reports of the proceedings were usually sent Earth. What he was represented in the Papers—by mistake he was quite sure—to have said respecting a Gentleman (Mr. ('Connell) who took an active part in Catholic proceedings in Ireland, was, that he was " a mushroom orator." Now, he had said no such thing. What he said was this, in allusion to the Catholic aristocracy of Ireland, that as to the antiquity of that Gentkman's family pretensions, respectable as they were, when compared with that aristocracy, they were of the mushroom ce lebrity of a day. Ile made the allusion, net for the purpose of reflecting on that Gentleman's family pretensions, which he re peated were respectable, but merely comparatively as to their relation to the aristocracy. He was the more anxious to have the mistake corrected, as nothing could be further from his in tentions than to hurt the feelings of any man under the privileges of Parliament. The allusion, in the way in which it was pub lished, was quite undeseried by the active Gentleman in ques tion, and as certainly unintended by hint (Mr. Ellis). SPE.IKER asked if the lion. Gentleman had any mo tion to make? Mr. ELLIS said, he was merely anxious to correct the mis representation. Mr. ASTLEY presented a Petition from the Woollen Ma nufacturers of the County of Wilts, praying for a repeal of the Duty on Fareign Wool ; and another from the Town of Leeds, to the same effect.—Both were ordered to lie on the table. BLACKFRIA RS-BRIDGE. Mr. Alderman WOOD moved the second reading of the Blackfriars Bridge Repair Bill. Mr. 11. SUMS TER opposed the Bill, on the ground that it re nuked an additional loan from the Orphans Fund, a former one fur the same purpose not being properly disposed of. Mr. Alderman WOOD said, that the toll of the Bridge was originally abandoned for the convenience of the inhabitants of Surrey ; and if the lion. Gentleman opposed this Bill success fully, the Bridge must necessarily remain without repair. After a few words from Mr. T. Wiasox and Alderman Bamoas, Sir J. GRAHAM moved, that the Bill be read a second time that day three months. The House divided, and the numbers were— For the Bill - - I! Against it - - . - 19 The STEAKEIL gave a casting vote against the Bill. TtIOLIC BILL.- Sir J. NEWPORT ruse and expressed his grateful acknow lleagments to the House for, the kindness which they had ex tended to him in the performance of the duty which had de volved upon him by some unhappy circumstances, with reference to the Catholic Bill. Fle alluded in terms of strong praise to the temperate and impartial manner in which the discussion had been carried on, and said, that he was entitled, by the expe rience of forty years, to state, that a greater benefit was never extended by any legislative body upon any People than the Bill now on their table for Catholic relief—(Loud cheers). The Right lion. Baronet then took the Bill and proceeded to the House of Lords, followed by a great body of Members. AGRICULTURAL PETITIONS. A Petition was laid on the table from the Agriculturists of the Hundred of Highwortb, in the County of Wilts, for the repeal of the War Malt Tex.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. CARTWRIGHT presented a Petition from the several Occupiers of Land in the County of Northampton, for the re peal of the additional Malt Tax. He observed, that be entirely differed from the sentiments of the Petitioners but did not think himself justified in refusing to present their 'Petition.--• Lad on the table. • 'l'he Irish Lunatic Asylum Bill was read the second time. Lord A LTHORPE presented three Petitions, the one frost Occupiers of Land of Itetford and Worksop, the other from Doncaster, end a thiaal from the County of Northampton, against the Atilt Tits. The Noble Lord said, he agreed in the prayer of the Petitions. lie thought it would be most ungra cious if the blouse threw out this, the first measure proposed fur the relief of the Agricultural Interest. He knew that after the notice given by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Castlereagh), he meant to use his utmost efforts to defeat this Bill; the sup;. porters of it would, therefore, find great difficulties to surmount in the progress of the measure. Ile called upon the Country Gentletnen to support this MIL 1k knew that they must be alataned at the hint given by Ministers of their intention to re sign if the repeal of the Malt Duties were carried. He reminded These Gentlemen that they need feel no alarm of that kind, as they must already have had ample experience of the disinclina tion, under almost any circumstances, of the present Ministers to relinquish office.—The Petitions were laid on the table. Mr. I. VSHE PA LDI ER presented a Petition from forty- Pte Owners and Occupiers of very large tracks of Land, near riggleswade, in Bedfordshire, who complained that they could not possibly cultivate their land under the pressure of the pre sent Duties upon them. They dented that there remained such a surplus of a superabundant crop as was stated, and asked what was to become of the peasantry If they (the Owners of • the Land) were obliged to relinquish its cultivation?—The Peti tion was laid on the table. Mr. LA JIB presented a Petition from tie Agriculturists near Royston, to the same effect. —Laid on the table. A. Petition was laid on the table from the Agriculturists near Dlarktt beeping, for the repeal of the Malt Tax. airs LliiNN A RD . presented a Petition from the Bankers. Dl:•rchants, &c. ig Ipswich, complaining of agricultural distress, and praying fot a repell of the late duty imposed on malt,—Laid on the table. ' ' • Mr. GOOCH presented a Petition from the Agriculturists of , • nedbeidge,,stnather from those of Hadley, and a third from , : those oflpswich, for a repeal of the Malt Duty. Be sod, h e cite:cis:red drfth tbt Petitioners in thinking that this Tax ought li to he repealed. Against the charge of inconsistency, which n.itlht be weed against him, in mom •quence of•vosing the Army lr..nuute, ta tl.e lull atautult of whlt, was rruosed bi :misters,. whilst he sought for a repeal of the Malt Toe, he could only say, that be thought the Tax unjust and impolitic. This was all be bad to look to, and it was for Ministers to determine bow theywould best supply the Revenue for the maintenance of those Establishments which the Public Service required.—The Petitions were laid on the table. REPORT OF THE COMMITTEILOF PRIVILEGES. Mr. C. WYNN presented the Report of the Com mittee of Privileges on the subject of the Petition of certain Electors of Carlisle. Tl:e Report stated that the Committee had come to Resolutions in substance as follows:-1st. That it appeared to the Committee that a military force had,been called into Carlisle by J. Forster, Esq. and two other Magistrates, on the 24th of May last, pending an Election, and before the poll was closed. 2(11y. That it did not appear to the Committee that there was any intention on the part of these Magistrates to overawe the Election; and, further, that the Civil Power was most inefficient at Carlisle ; but it further appeared to the Commit tee, that the Magistrates did nut use all the means which the Civil Power afforded them of preserving the peace. •Under all the circumstances of the case, however, considering the difficult task the Ma is-' traces had to perform, the Committee did not feel themselves called on to recommend the adoption of any measure on this subject. Mr. C, WYNN, alluding to the substance of the Resolutions, said, the Committee recommended no proceedings to the House, but trusted their Report would have a good effect on the future conduct of Magistrates. He should now content himself with moving, that the Resolution of the House, of Sep . - tember, 1741,-should be read. The Resolution, declaring the employment of, military at Elections, as a gross breaCh of privilege, was then read. Mr. C. WYNN moved a Resolution, that the House would always guard this privilege with the most watchful and jealous care. Mr. BENNETT would not impute improper motives to the Magistrates ; they had acted on their discretion ; but it was a discretion most mischievously exercised on this occasion. Sir J. GRAHAM and Lord LOWTHER defended the course taken by the Magistrates. Mr. CuRwEN and Mr. JAMES condemned it. The Resolution was, after a few words from Mr, C. WYNN, adopted. IRISH UNION DUTIES. Mr. CANNING presented a Petition from several 'Merchants of Liverpool, praying a Repeal of the Protecting Duties between England. and Ireland. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he was not against inquiry ; but that the Cham ber of Dublin had desired to have time allowed them to investigate the subject. Sir H. PARNELL urged the Repeal ; and after a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER and Mr. CANNING, the Petition was ordered to lie on the table. Lord ALTHOR PE wished to know from the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Wallace) whether the timber on bond, and that in progress of importation, whether from America or the North of Europe, was to be subject to the new regulations? Mr. W ALLACE said, the same course would be followed ON this as on former similar occasions. Mr. WESTERN put a question to the Chancellor , of the Exchequer as to the duties paid by Scotch barlies malted? Previous to the imposition of the duty of Is. 2d. in 1819, which applied alike to Eng land and Scotland, Scotland had an advantage of Bd. over England ; he wished now to know whether, if this duty of Is. 2d. was now done away, the adr vantage previously given to Scotland, which bad been taken from h4r in 1819, she being then put on an equality with England, would be restored to her? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he had no objection to this question going to a Com mittee to be investigated. Lord A. HAMILTON complained of the duty being laid on Scotch barley, after the Report of the Committee of 1804 had recommended that some al lowance should be made to it compared with that of England. He called upon the Member for Norfolk to say, whether the corn of Scotland was not much inferior in quality to the same in England? He (Lord Hamilton) would give his support to the mo tion of the Honourable Gentleman near him, for if that motion succeeded, he would thereby gain Is. 2d. per bushel for the Scotch corn. But in return, he expected that the English Members would give their pledge to support him and the other Members from Scotland, when a motion should hereafter be made to restore to Scotland the advantage in duty of which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had deprived her. Mr. COKE deprecated the system of Scotch or any other . Members pursuing separate interests in that House. It was only by a general union that an effectual opposition could be given to Ministers for the repeal of this duty. He admitted that the bigg barley of Scotland was inferior to the same corn . in some counties in England, but he did not think it was worse than the corn of some parts of Lincoln shire or Norfolk. With regard to his giving a pledge to support the Noble Lord in his future exertions re specting the Scotch Malt Duty, he (Mr. Coke) would say, once for all, that it was his plan to reduce all duties on malt as low as possible, being convinced that high duties decreased the consumption of corn, and that the agriculturist was consequently materi ally injured. REPEAL OP TH MALT DUTY. The Order of the Day for the second reading of' the Malt Duty Repeal 13i11 was then read. Mr. WESTERN said, the Bill having been for some time in the hands of Members, as weli as the statements connected with it, he should not now con sider it necessary to detain the House by a long state ment, but content himself with moving, that the Bill be now read a second time. Sir J. SHELLEY argued stronglythe necessitythere was that the Agricultural Interest should be relieved, which would be done by the repeal of this tax. Much had been said of the embarrassment which the re peal of this tax would occasion to the Ministers and the finances, but the repeal would only take away £1,400,000, and it is understood that Ministers wanted to appropriate £2,000,000 to the Sinking Fund. Let the Sinking Fund go without it ; the House had long enough been humbugged abotax the .Sinking Fund, and so had the Country. He under stood, tf Ministers lost this fax, they intended to re sign ---(A laugh). Now, he had no wish that they should resign their places, be only wanted_them to give up souse Of the taxes--(Laeghter)—and he hoped the third Bench, which, on a former night, had taught diem so good a lesson, would repeat it to-nights Mr. WARD said, there had been three reasons as signed why this tax might be given up—first, that it WAS superfluous, and might be done without ; next, that if the tax was taken away, retrenchment might be made to meet its loss; and thirdly, that if the money could be done without, a tax less burthensome might be found. Now, as to its being done without, an Honourable Member had recommended the aban donment of the Sinking Fund, which he described as a fallacy. Opinions might be erroneous. Opinions once existed that the Sun went round the Earth, whilst the Earth stood still ; but that was now given H n . o ot agree e a e s t oa abandon e rr oneo the us Sinking opinion. Fund, s' be c ause, h pourable Gentleman considered it as a fallacy. The ecn th 'a e House, not a fortnight ago, after a long and close investigation, voted the Army as necessary; and tow, what were they asked to do? Why, to take away the means of supporting that Army. It was only by keeping arms in out hands, that we could guard against the renewal of hostilities. He hoped that those who wished to support the Government would reconsider the subject. Mr. GRENFELL contended, that a Sinking Fund ought to be kept up, as well to liquidate the National Debt as to assure public credit—(Hear, hear).—The excess of income over the expenses of the year formed a real Sinking Fund. He -had voted in 1819 for the £3000,000 new taxes, and he would now vote for the repeal of this Malt Duty. Ile thought that the Ministry would be brought to retrench quite as soon if this tax was continued, as if it was nithheld.— When a man wished to pay ofr his debts he did not begin by lowering his rents. He deprecated the idea of breaking faith with the public creditor, which he bad heard suggested in this House more than once —(Hear, hear).—The stockholder had the same right to his property as the landholder, and would be as justified in invading the property of the landholder . as the landholder was in attacking his—(Hear, hear). If any taxes were to be taken off, he doubted much whether the Malt Tax ought to he the first. He thought the House ought to begin with the tax upon salt, which was more generally oppres-ive—( /ear). —ln conclusion, he said that the promoters of this measure would be much disappointed if they calcu lated upon its giving substantial relief to the agri culturist—(Hear). Mr. LOCKHART denied that any Gentleman on that side of the House recommended a breach of faith with the public creditor. What was said was' this—that it was unjust one class of men should have nll the property of the kingdom in their hands unin cumbered, whilst the rest were like the adscripti gleLi —mere serfs, to bear alone all the burthens—(Hear). —lf establishments were necessary to be kept up, they might be kept at a less expense. People did not look to saving so much in the reduction of the esta blishments, as in the expense attending the support of these establishments—(Hear).—lt was said that the agriculturists had had their day, and that they had been the authors and supporters of the war."— He (Mr. Lockhart) repudiated these charges : the pre sent race of agriculturists were the successors of those who were in existence at the commencement of the late war. He felt that, in thus addressing himself to the House, he was speaking on behalf of helpless millions, who must be reduced to the depths of misery unless saved by the wisdom of Parliament—(Hear). —lf something were not done, the time was not far distant when the poor would be nnableeither to pro , cure employment from the yeomanry or relief from the magistrate. Under these circuinstancel, it was surely unfair and irrelevant to advert to the political conduct or opinions held by this or that class, with reference to a question so long since passed away. Mr. J. SMITH had examined the subject with much care, and had come to a different conclusion from the last speaker. He could not conceive that the repeal of this comparatively small duty would materially relieve the farmer. The effect could only be local, and not general. He was informed that a reduction of Bs. on a quarter of Malt would not affect the price of porter or ale a penny a pot, and the profit would go into the pockets of the brewers. The only solid relief to the agriculturist would be an improvement of the Poor Laws. Much good had been done in several parishes by employing the poor on lands, and refusing any relief to idleness, as that method induced them to procure employment for themselves. Ministers alone were not to blame for inattention to economy. One million had been em ployed on the Penitentiary ; another on the Caledo nian Canal ; and £1,200,000 was about to be ex pended on improvements at Sheerness and its vici nity. This was the country that afforded to the world examples of all that was great or good 1— (Hear, hear).—He could not participate in the fears felt on the subject of the National Debt ; and that it was impossible to keep faith with the public creditor. Whether the funding system was right-or wrong, we had only followed the example of the rest of Europe. Much alarm had been entertained on account of the language that had been held in that House; and lie knew of a foreigner, of great fortune, who had writ ten to his agent to learn if it was true that England meant to break faith with the public creditor.— The number of Stockholders was from 800,000 to 900,000; and a number of Corporate Bodies had the whole of their property in the Funds. During the time of the war, while this country was so heavily taxed, we had sacredly abstained from taxing the property of foreigners, than which nothing had more highly exalted the national character in Europe. As to the Sinking Fund, he knew not where it was to be found, as he learned there was a large sum due to the East India Company on account of Bonaparte-- (Hear). He must oppose the second reading of the Bill. Sir J. BOUGHEY could not support the measure, unless he was assured that it was to be a measure of economy, and no other tax to b e su b st i tute d . Mr. CURWEI!I had no wish to break faith with the public creditor as long as it could be maintained. While the Landholder had only £6B out of his £lOO from the different charges upon him, the Fund-holder pocketed the whole of his £lOO. It was impossible to proceed with the present-system of taxation, as one-sixth of the means of the community had been taken away. He should always maintain that the Fundhoider was bound to pay for the. security of his propel ty, as well as any other class of proprietors. - It was incumbent 6k-those who oppo se d t h e present measure, to shew that low prices were beneficial to the Manufacturing Luc; e.t. He should support the present measure, and any other that had ecotse rli for its object. l ie was of opinion t h a t th e step take,l-. for the resumption of cash payments bad no eff ect in 'creating the present distress. Mr. BLNETT (of Wilts) never wished to separat e the interests of the agricultural and commercial classes. These interests were, in fact, inseparable. If there was any hope of an effective measure from the Agricultural Committee, th en t h e H ouse might be called upon to wait for its Itepott. But after there. fusal to take into consideration the suggestion of the Members for Taunton and Nrtarlington, the House was bound to take up the subject themselves. N o one had proposed to take off the duties on hats, on china, or leather ; but the moment it ;as proposed to lay a tax on the importation of foreign grain, the unceasing changes had been rung on the benefits of a free trade. The poor had no beer at home, as had been the case formerly, and were forted to repitir tQ the alehouse, where a great part of their wages wete spent, and their morals corrupted. That was the consequence of the high tax on malt—(hear, hear). He should support cordially the repeal of the tax. Mr. K. DOUGLAS observed, that none of the sup: porters of the Bill had pointed out its good effects to the farmers. 'lite tax was quite fair, as it was spread equally over the whole of the community. The d e . mand for the repeal was the more unreasonable, after the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been called upon to lay down a permanent system of finance. Mr. BRIGHT believed that many other taxes were of more importance to the consumer than thi s tax. Still he thought, that if the means of Gey er* , merit were lessened, their vigilance would be j o ,. creased. Ile believed, that in the Navy Estimates* reduction equal to this tax might be made. The commercial was equal to the agricultural distres s , and the remedy for both was economy. He woul4 vote for the removal of the tax, but upon the princi. ple that no other would be substituted in its room. The agricultural interest knew the tenure on whids they had purchased their estates, and had no right to turn round on the commercial interest, and call upon them to share their burthens. Colonel WOOD agreed with Honottrable3lembers, that the interests of Commerce and Agriculture were inseparable. Ile could not admit that the present Bill would afford much relief to the Agricultural la terest. The consumer would not derive much benefit from the repeal of the tax. When the tax had been taken off, in 1816, no diminution had taken place in the price of beer ; and the reason given by the brewers was, that they were not certain but the Chancellor of the Exchequer might lay it on again. A greater is. jury could not be done, than to break down the in come of the country, and in that way run the risk of another struggle. It would have been but fair on the present occa s ion to have waited for the Report of the Agricultural Committee. Should a modified Pro. petty Tax be adopted, he would vote for the aboli tion of the Malt Tax ; but, till that took place, he must vote for the Tax. Mr. F. LEWIS thought it was decidedly wise to get rid of the Income Tax, as one peculiarly oppres sive, not only in itself, but from the mode of its col lection:lf the Property l'ax did not embrace income, the sphere of its operation would be extremely nar rowed. He thought it would be unwise to get rid of the ordinary taxes, and to impose a Property Tax its time of peace. He looked at the Property Tax as one for a state of war alone ; for he would have all fa reign nations know that we were prepared for war, by hating that tax as a resource in such a dilficuky. For this reason he could not consent to the repeal of the Malt Tax. Looking at,the subject of wades generally, he found it to-be oneCvihich he knew not how this country could welkget rid of; and therefore he could not vote for the Government being deprived of the means of carrying on the business d the State He also wished that the Sinking Fund should not be deprived of the small pittance paid towards it. It the way the accounts were made out, he could not tell how much had been redeemed from theNatitael Debt in the last year, but he had no doubt that the utmost reduction would amount to a million or million and a half-at most. He wished as much as any man for every fair and proper reduction in our eipenditure ; and he had no doubt that such redo*. tion would be made. lie did not in his conscience believe that the repeal of this tax would produce that wonderful effect in behalf of the Agricultural Inte rests that was so sanguinely expected from it. Thee must increase the price as well as the consumption before this measure could be beneficial to any ether but the maltster and the brewer; and not at all te the barley grower, or to the consumer. If the to. moval of this tax would, in his opinion, give a tem porary relief, he would vote for it ; but he believed that the heavy ill arose from the pressure of Stamps. Colonel WOOD explained. He never wished to have an inquisitorial Income Tax ; what be wished for was a well-regulated Income Tax, to which the farmers only looked for relief. Captain GOlt DON wished for an equalization of the Duties on Malt in Scotland. He did not wish to embarrass the Government by a repeal of this Tu, but he wished for a fair investigation into the subject. Mr. SMYTH supported the Bill. He was for a Property Tax, or an Income Tax; but he was Inc magnum vecligal, parsimonia. He could not ago 0 with those who sanctioned our ruinous expenditure, and went entirely along with those who wished fore reduction of 10,000 men in the Army, and all other reductions which could give relief to the various ie• terests in the country. The best preparation for wee was to husband our resources. For these reasons be should give his decided vote in favour of the reed of this Tar. Lord CASTLEREAGH, before he proceeded ° address the House, desired that the Clerk might eat a Resolution come to by the House, on the etb June, 1819. The Clerk then read the following Resolutioae • " Resolved, That it is the opinion of this Cnatenittrtt provide fur the exigencies of the Public Service, and far OW' an efficient reduction of the National Debt, as will elects* support public credit, and afford the country a hoped si b = dal relief front its present burdens, It Is absolutely nesewar a clear Sinking Fund, of not less than 5e.5,Q00,000, shall be der 77: - . blished ; and, with a view to this,it is expedient now to stres a , the Revenue of the country. by imposing new Tams to thesis/AI of £3,000,000 per annum." Lord CASTLEREAGH proceeded. He r se co redeem his pledge, by opposing thisßiU; and, in 6 7 so, it could be no light matter to a man, stanJin the responsible situation in Which he was placed: to , , oppose a Bill which professed to be for the relief " tbe people, and more tspecialy slut great latelt4 I