Star. — London, England, 1831-03-04 00:00:00

i~-~¢~ IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, 31Ariczt 3. '1'I:e• 12.000,0001. Exchequer Bills' Bill was read a third time. The , :her bills on their Lordship.' table were forwarded a stage. The Consolidated Fund Bill and the Appropriation Bill were read t he second time. A petition was presented from St. Paul's, Covent-garden parish for the repeal ~ 1 the house and window taxes. .91,0n1 HACH E presented a petition from the Rev. George Bliss ekratl l2ll , pra' ing their Lordships to introduce a clause in the Church•building UM. for the protection of his rights. The petitioner : omplad ed that the Commissioners under the Act for building new Churchts had lute, fered with his right ro the nomination of a Chapel near Chichester, and if the hill haute their Lordships passed into a law wi.F . ••ut amendment in his favour, he would have no opportunity of obtaining his rights, Ilisbop of CHICHESTER said, about five years ago a Mr. Baker buil• a chapel two miles front Chichester, and three miles from the Mother Church. He was requested to consecrate it, but he told Mr. Baker he could not do it. without the consent of Mr. Bliss, the Incumbent of the parish church. The Church Building Act passed •oon after. and the Right Reverend Prelate left Mr. Baker to settle :he question with the Commissioners under that Act; that was all the part he had taken in the transaction. The Duke of RICHMOND said the Chapel bad been of essential service to the parish.—The petition was laid on the table. )RKACH OF Lord FARNHAM said it was with great reluctance he brought before their Lordships a case in which he was personally concerned, Sut feeling that every Peer in that House was more or less interested in the same, he could not withhold his information respecting a gross breach of privilege. The Noble Lord was proceeding to state that he had received threatening letters from Ireland, when— Earl GREY suggested the propriet; of excluding strangers. All petsons below the bar were consequently ordered to withdraw, Ind the noble lord's complaint wits heatd with closed doors. W.. understand that the noble lord bad been threatened with violence consequence of his observations, some days since, upon Lord Rung's :notion respecting the Wexford union. _ REFORM. On our re-admission to the House, we found the Earl of CARNAR VON on his legs, presenting a petition for Reform in Parliament. The Noble Earl observed, that the plan proposed in another branch of the Legislature, did not appear to him to be Reform, but the plan of a new Constitution.—(llear.) If the Constitution was really worn out, it .night be necessary to adopt a new plan, but being of opinion that was not the case, he should be prepared to enter his protest against all that was wild and visionary. A Noble Friend intended to give notice of his intention to bring the subject .before the house at an early day, therefore it might be desirable, to abstain from going into discussion until the proper time. Earl GREY considered the Noble Earl right, in abstaining from dis. anion upon the presentation of a petition. He should follow the Noble Earl's example, and say but little on the great 'question. To the prayer et the petition he not only gave his assent, hut would endeavour to pre. •note the prayer of the petitioners. The Noble Lord had been pleased to say it was nos a plan of reform, but a new constitution. To such a representation of the character of the measure, for which he, in common with his colleagues, was responsible—against such a character given to the measure, he muse enter his decided protest.—( Hear.) /Its Majesty's Government were not introducing, in the measures they It'd brought forward, any new constitution. But what they were doing was of this character, and he should be able to prove it, when the ques tion come before the House—not an endeavour to introduce a new con stitution, but a recurrence to the principles of the out constitution, by which means they would restore it to that confidence in the peoples' minds which it ough. to have. He had always kept that principle in view In every thing which he had done. He had endeavoured to con tort» to that principle in the plan proposed. Upon that principle he contended that the measure was not the forming of a new constitution, tut the occurring toan old one, by which the people had fair represen talon in Parliament, and of which they had been deprived in later times. He should be most glad to discuss this que s tion fully at any time, it Alould please the noble lords to discuss it. Lord WHARNCLIFFE concurred most cordially with what had Idle!) from the Noble Earl ; Carnarvon) that the measure brought for. ward was not Reform but u new Constitution. It was his intention on Monday next to move for certain returns connected with the population of counties and towns, at which period he intended to enter fully into the discussion of the question. Lord WYNFORD was not so well versed as the Noble Earl (Grey) in the history of the country, but would undertake to say that the prin ciples of the present Retina» Bill were not those on which the ancient constitution of the country rested. He protested against new doctrines which altered the foundation of the Constitution. The privilege of ,ending representatives to Parliament was founded on the circumstance of the parties being the King's tenants, and the intention w a s th a t th e y should counterpoise the power of the Barons. Lord KING looked upon the measure brought forward as of greater interest than any thing that had taken place in the country since the ex pulsion of James IL the putting of which was as necessary to pre serve the liberties of the country—(Hear)—as the expulsion of the in rammed Stuarts. (Hear.) According to the views of the Noble and Learned Lcrd none ought to sit in Parliament tat tenants of the Crown. The present Government had done much to benefit the coon. try. They had proposed Parliamentary Reform. The malverution in the Admiralty would be brought forward, and before long there would be an exposure of abuses imthe colonial department. Lola WYNFORD in explanation said, he had not advanced that rave but tenants of the King had the right to sit in Parliament. The Duke of WELLINGTON thought the noble lord who had motioned malversation in the Admiralty, should have moved for papers tile subject, in order that the noble lord who was not then in the !•. 'the might have the opportunity of meeting any charge. His Grace ;,::cw of no malversation during the time he was in office. On a recent .u; !.ion inquiry was made, and the Government was acquitted of male suction. With respect to the question of reform, the noble duke did rot to enter upon the discussion at that time, but on a future day should expect his Majesty's Ministers, who, on their own respond ,iiity had brought forward this question, would be prepared to explain ry that means, the monarchical, and constitutional government of the celintry could be carried on, according to the principles established at .ere Revolution. Th.: Duke of BUCKINGHAM asked his noble kinsman (Lord Eine) who had brought forward a charge against the late Secretary for the Colonies, whether he intended to move for papers ; and also he was J sirota of hearing, from the present Secretary of the Colonies, whether it was his intention to bring terward any charges ? Lord KING said he had made no charge of malversation against the Secrei:.ry of the Colonies. The Duke of BIICKINGH A '3l rose to speak, when The Duke of RICH IiOND spoke to order, and observed, that when noble lord in that house denied a matter applied to him, it was not ,egidar for any noble lord to reply. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM would only ask his noble kinsman whether he intended to impute malversation to the noble Secretary ? Lerd KING said, he meant to say there had been a misapplication of vaur.ey voted by Parliament in the Admiralty and Colonial Depart. went*. He aid not mean to move for papers. The Duke of WELLINGTON had no desire to press the Noble Lord to move for papas, or bring forward a charge of malversation, but if the noble lord was so scrupulous about moving for papers he should not have mentioned the subject. Lord CODER "CH said, he had no intention to prefer any charge of malversation. Earl GREY said it was not the wish of his Majesty's present Go. cerement to throw the slightest censure on the noble persons who had . iiled the offices alluded to. Although there had been some derange .r.cnts in the application of some vote by parliament, he was sure the . chle lord (Melville) had not been sensible of anything wrong. That regularities had occurred, there could be no doubt. Money voted for head of service had been applied to another. With respect to the , spectation of the noble Duke, he should certainly be prepared to Prove, when the ques ti on came b e f ore t h e House, that the monarchy and the constitution could he supported under the plan proposed bet ter than it was at pro -sent, and that it was not necessary that the dignity a :he monarchy anti tile constitution should be supported by a system of corruption. A NOBLE LORD defended the character of Lord Melville, and autcnded no man was less liable to be guilty of, or connive at, malver sat ion. Lord BEXLEY defended the measures of the parties to whom the noble lord's observations applied. Lord KING explainoi. He only meant to say money voted by the Parliament for one service, had been applied by the Admiralty to ...r.other• Earl GREY said he could not justify the misapplication of public a.ouey. The conversation then ended. The Marquis of CLEVELAND, presenting a petition for reform, declared hitt:self favourable to moderate reform. The petition, which as from South Shields, anti signed by sixteen thousand people, was then laid on the table. The Noble Earl, in continuation observed that he was not prepared to support every species OT plan of reform. He could truly say, front Radicals and ultra-Tories, " good Lord deliver us." (a laugh.) Tne Noble Marquis then presented a petition from Gal !al', for an extension of the elective franchise, and another from a place in Dosnshire, for reform. Lord TETNIIAM presented a petition from certain members of a Corporation in Dublin, praying for reformation in the corporated bodies of that city. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented petitions for reform from Warrington, a place in Buckinghamshire ; and also one from Galway, for an equalization of civil rights. Earl STANHOPE presented a petition from a parish in Kent, cons ,ilauling of heavy taxation, and in a particular manner of the malt tax i also a petition from a parieh in the mune county, israying for reform in Kirlia:nent. The noble earl on this subject took occasion to observe, FR !PAY EVENING, MARCH 4. 1831. that he considered a reformed Parliament essential to the wel'-being of the Government; at the same time, he did not agree with the noble earl opposite (Grey), that it was irregular for their lordships to take notice in that holm of any measure brought forward in ihe other house of Parliament, before that measure was submitted to their lordships As a noble lord (Wharncliffe) had given notice of a motion for produc tion of certain papers relative to the question of reform, he (Lord Stan hope) should take that opportunity of addressing a few words to their lordships on that great and important question. Lord KING then presented various petitions for reform in Parlia ment from Bridge-street Ward (tendon), Shaftesbury, Kiddenninster, Tiverton ' Bulmore, MU, and also from places in Mayo, Devon, Dur ham, and Suffolk. The same noble baron also presented several pen tions for an alteration in the tithe system. Lord CARBERRY moved for certain returns relative to the pub lic works executed in Ireland during 1828, and subsequot years-- Ordered Lord WHARNCLIFFC postponed the motion of which he had given notice that evening, until Tinned/I next. • Lord ELLENLIOROUGH moved that all accounts relative to the India trade be printed.—Agreed to. The Churches Building Bill went through a committee ; after which their lordships adjourned at seven o'clock. PRICE 711. measure. Ile ( Mr. Bankes) would dare to use the phrase, and called it * revolution, fur these were the days of intimidation. He had heard no words uttered on that side but words of intimidation (Hear, bear.) — And although he was one of the proscribed, he would be worse than a coward if he shrunk from the declaration. The speech in reply, by the learned A emu General, to the speech of the hon. member for lie. rougltbridge on the previous evening, was, in the mind of him ( Mr. Bankes )no answer at all. Nothing in answer to the kon. member for Boroughbrldge did he hear ; but far be it from him ( Mr. Backer,) verity that many taluable observations did not fall from the' learned gentleman ; hut perhaps, in the confusion that was in the house at the time, they had escaped the notice of Lim (Mr. Bankes.) The hon. member for Preston had also expressed his astonishment at the length that the measure had gone; but he could not go so far as to say that he iniproved of It entirely, although he thought it wonderful that Mi. sal tees of the c r own should have gone so faze He had expressed his approbation of their cuttigg down :be aristocracy, but atilt be Auld they did not give altogether enough to the democracy, but he thought it was a gqodstep towards a beginning. The boa. member (Urea) briefly ex pressed his disapprobation of the expression rabble, which Lad been Tatlied to a portion of the public• by the honourable member for Caine. te House had heard what had been said by the hou. member for Preston, slto had often s ylcd himself the member of the people ; he had said that the excitement out of doors was not more than it had been in 1814, 1616, or 1819, or any intervening or subsequent year ; so that the hon. members were not called to decide upon the question with bludgeons over their heads. The noble lord, the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, had said that he was not under any impression of fear; he (Mr. B.) was sure that the noble lord was not, nor was he (Mr. B.) under any such impression. There were members in the same spirit of security in the house, but yet they would require time to consider the question ; but he ( M r. Bankes) could assure them, on the authority of the Member of the People, that the danger was not greater now titan it was seventeen years ago. He (Mr. Danko-) acknowledged that there was a power—an increasing power—the power of the press, which had much increased between the commencement of the period he had quoted and tile present day. (Hear, hear.) lie acknowledged that they were all untenable to that power ; but with all its facility to de velope public and private character, with this conviction before his eyes, and uttering this acknowkdgetnent, he would never succumb to it—he would never flinch from his duty—powerful, increasing, and overwhelming as he acknowledged it. lie would be a coward indeed if he shrunk fram declaring his sentiments, and even with the terror of its powers staring them in the face he would call upon the House to pause before they yielded to the measure. Another system had been practised on the introduction of this measure, which was equally as bad as that which he had censured. Last night an Honourable Member had been called to order for saying that the measure had ham introduced with the approbation of this—he ( Mr. Bantle.) would not say approbation, he would accept a more qualified term —the cognisance of his Majesty. The Honourable Speaker had on that occasion given his opinion that the Hon. Member was not out of order. as his Alajesty had the power of dismissing his Mites. ten if they acted ttecoustitutionally, atd hence it was to he in , (erred that the meanest had been brought in with the cognizance of the Crown, and this was received as competent authority ; but when it was recollected that when the bill was proposed the pr anion was accompanied with a threat, that if it did not pass that parliament would be dissolved, the house could only infer that that threat of disso lution of parliament had also been givett under the cegnizance of the Crown. Such authority had never been before used in that liouse,and he (Mr. Bankes) hoped that it never would be used again. In exte nuation of the noble lord who had been called to order on the previous evening, it had been told the house that a noble lord had come down to another house, and had used the same expressions, that he had his Majesty's authority for presenting a measure. He (Mr. Bunke') ad mitted that such had been the case, but then it was not accompanied with a threat. The noble lord had only said that he had the authority of the crown so by thee mauves before then for their consideration.— , But this ministry was in the habit of always, when they got into what ! was called a scrape, of quoting as a precedent the blunder of some great man, and, as is usual in such cases, they generally selected for their pre cedent the very worst blunder of their great authority. The Attorney. General had quoted, as authority for the present proposed disfranchise ments, the charters that had been taken at an early date as precedent ; but the hon. member for Boroughbridge had truly said, that that was no precedent, but only went to prove an infringement on the people's rights. With regard to the alteration which was proposed, in taking away the prerogative of so many corporations, it certainly deserved no other phrase than an act of spoliatior. The honourable member more particularly noticed the allusion that had been made in the speech of the AuornerGeneral to what had taken place in the reign of Crom well, when he altered the form of the parliament, and the learned gentleman had quoted the sentiments of several, amongst ethers was Clarendon, who had approved of the measure ; but he (Mr. Bankes) would suggest to him the propriety of searching a little farther, and to look to what had been the result of the alteration. From the Parliamentary Records it would seem, that the infraction had been but of short duration. He (Mr. B.) would look to the opinion of the pa rent of the measure, to Cromwell. The hon. member then quoted the address which was delivered by the Protector to what he called his Par. !lament, which was in substance--" My Lords and Gentlemen, i had the comfortable expectation that the Loan would make the meeting of this Parliament a blessing at his hands; but I find that you have more disjointed the nation than it has ever been before, and I now dissolve vou, and let the Loan judge between us of my intentions:'—(('hvers.) 'The hon. member had told the hon. member for Westminster that he would give him better authority than his own for designating the mea sure a revolution—and he would not go back to ancient elates, but would quote one of the latest, in the last speech that had been delivered by the late Nlr. Huskisson in that house. Mr. H. said, the " proposed ex. tensive reform would in a few years end in a total subversion of our Constitution, and be followed by complete confusion and anarchy."— (Hear, hear, hear.) Supported by such a high authority, he would not scruple to adopt the phrase which a gallant member had been repro bated for using, and to call this a revolutionary movement. (Hear.) Should those who had in a manner been brought up under the superin. ! tendence of that great man, Mr. Huskisson, promote a measure which he, who was an experienced man, who was not one of the aristocracy, and who did not despise the peopie—(hesr) -had pronounced to be re. volutionary, and heal called upon the house, in the name of all that was dear to them, to refrain from. There was one, indeed, of the Cabinet, the Member for Montgomery, who, if he was to credit the public papers, had on his late reelection, made a powerful speech quite con formable to the tenets of Mr. Huskisson. in which he deprecated inno vation and disfranchisement. (Hear.) He had heard with surprise the Attorney-General range Mr. Pitt on his side. Mr. Pitt, in one of his latest speeches, iu that relating to the Irish union, had declared that if any thing could balance the edvantages of that measure it would be the necessity of disturbing the representation of the country. lie trusted that the hon. member for Westminster would allow that he had brought forward great harms, and that he was justified, therefore. without incurr ing that honourable member's censure, in declaring the present to be a revolutionary measure. (Cheers.) Mr. 110IIHOUSE trusted, that the Hon. Member having so par. ticularly addressed himself to hint, he (Mr. H.) was somewhat justified In trespassing upon the attention of the house. He would show tie lion. Member, from as great an authority as the one which he had quoted—fur it would be from the same authority ( Mr. Pitt)—that the Gallant General was not justified in calling the present a revolutionary measure. He had heard nothing front Hun. Gentlemen to prove that it was such; he had heard assertions indeed—(henr, hear)—but as to any argument or documents to show that the people of England would lose their Constitution, that the Monarchy would be die. turbed, that the realm, consisting of three States, King, Lords, and Commons. would not to-morrow consist of King, Lords, and Commons, if the bill were to be brought in force to-morrow, he must declare that he had beard no such thing. With respect to the authority of Mr. Huskisson, without wishing to undervalue it, he must tell the Hon. Member that be had never professed himself a disciple of Mr. Huskisson on Parliamentary Reform. Mr. Pitt, in the very speech on the Irish Union which had been quoted, had declared, when disposing of that paltry pretext, of there being cer tain fixed principles over which parliament had no eontroul—an argu. ment which he (Mr. Hobliouse) had been astounded at the learned member for Buroughbridge, with the history at England in his hand, presuming to make use of—Mr. Pitt, he said, had declared that he had no doubt of the competency of parliament to treat the question of Re. form.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Pitt, though not a special pleader, though not the first in the Court of Chancery, though not, perhaps, accustomed to argue with so acute a gentleman as the learned member for Boroughs bridge—. Ur. Pitt thought, that not only disfranchisement by parlia ment was no robbery, but even that those who maintained the eon tarty were Jacohins—(hear, hear)— for they supposed there existed in tie stet; a sovereign in abeyance. besides the authority residing in parlis• men`.—(Hear, hear.) They had been reminded of the disints,.;,g by Oliver Cromwell of toe parliament of eighteen days. But why lied thou parliament been dismissedf Because it was so true a representutient of the people, that Cromwell found its existence to be incompatible with tyr.inry. Had Cromwell lived in these days he would not have found it mei:attar! to dissolve parliament in eighteen days. The lion. member who had opened the debate had said, that it was a popular parliament who had murdered the king. Now, this was not the time to speak lightly of crowned heads, for they had enough to do to keep their sta tions.—(Loud cries of " Hear," from the Opposition.) He said so advisedly and sincerely; it was not now necessary to colour any events tending to detract from the unfortunate men who, by birth, or other circumstances, were placed on thrones. But the member fin (lx. ford must be perfectly aware that Charles I. did not meet his doom in consequence of the determination of the democracy, bat was put to death by the patty, then uppermost, for their own purposes, and because:. if, the treaty which be was making with them, lie was discovered to be acting with mental reservation. He denied that the Parliament was at the time a popular one. Eiglity.four members condemned Charles I. to death, and of these more than sixty were members for boroughs.-- (Hear.) The bon. but. Paid, wherever a popular assembly gamut power, it was found incompatible with monarchy. He gave two in. stances--Spain and Sicily ; both unfortunate for his argument. It wa.. not the Cortes dethroned the King of Spain ; it was the imbecility ci the Monarch, and the invasion of a French army. In Sicily, the Censtimtion was settled by Lord Castlereagh, when he sealed Europe, and it throve accordingly. ( Hear, hear.) The honourable b:, ronct had alluded to the present state of France. The right honour. able baronet below him (Sir Robert Peel) had admitted that the people of France were justified in their late resistance,—a sentiment that did him honour. The cause of the present disagreements in Franc; was not that the Chambers were too popular, but that they were no sufficiently popular. The learned member for Newport (Mr. II Twin) said, the proposed bill would throw the franchise into the hana, of small shopkeepers and attorneys. There was no class who now ex ercised more influence in elections than attorneys. The hill would gire the franchise to those who ought to possess it—those who had a busi noes and a stake in the country, and were interested in its good govein none. The present measure was called revolutionary; but no such charge was made against Mr. Pitt's plan, when he proposed to disfran chise the rotten boroughs : and when Mr. Grey brought forward his plan, which went to remodel the whole representation, with the exception et - one.fifth. Mr. Pitt, wbo bad then changed his opinions, did not charg; it as revolutionary ; but, said the time was not suitable—and Mr. Fox approved of that planof Reform, and said it assailed no genuine . propet:y. The learned member for Boroughbridge (Sir C. Wetherell) had made a very pleasant speech last night, and certainly, as had been said by a French writer, never was empire lost so gaily—but for himself, he must say with the deepest seriousness, that it reform was refused, if all hope of reform by that house was lost, he could not but fear that very soon that catastrophe must come which they were all desirous to avoid. It might be said of most of the hon. gentlemen who opposed the mea sure as bad been said of Cenar, that they fought not only f. 7 ieterl , but for life. Many of then: thought they would not b but be was confident reform would make no great change is t! r retire - sentution. lie was confident liar the people of England soul., :.e. et to parliament those men best qualified to do their business. (Hear. Mar.) When he spoke of having portals, through which men of talent might enter the house without siooping, they seemed to throw eat of consideration the qualification of honesty. (Hear, hear, hear.) —lie had in general seen men of great talent, who came lef the House through close boroughs, do more harm to the country than good.— ll'hen a member was sent in by a patron lie must obey that patron. he must go iu the stern path of duty, supporting the Niiniaier his patron supported.—all whose measures would of course be good. But those waa not the way in which members should be sent to that house. They should be sent for their ability and integrity, approved by the peol.:e whom they were to represent, and for wheat happiness they were legislate. It was said there caw danger in yielding to popular opin;o.e and popular feeling; but lie thought the danger came from throe - ticians, if politicians they could be called, who, when nut!' three if. ligh, upon the nation. still clung to their prsjut:ices and fears; dies.: were the individuals who were the cause of alarm and der ger ; but Le trusted the gosd sense of the country would not allow a sinister a, 11l be mule of such exaggerated, such unfounded tears. The oppon,:, of the bill sought to excite the fears of the aristocracy and of the pus son of property—they were told to look to their rents—to tithes —mu the loads; and it was said if the bill passed property would become insecure ; as if the people had an interest in the destruction of pro. perty. lie would say with Burke that the people had no interest in din. order; and when iu possession of their rights, had never shown an in. clination for disorder. The hun, Member for Preston said he spoke the sentiments of millions ; he could say, that he spoke the sentiments of his own heart, which he Is:lL:veil to lee the sentiments of millions of his countrymen. Why should they not ? He was an Eaglialtilian, ' born on the same soil, received the same education, had the same inter ests and wishes; and he hoped the Members of that House would prove themselves the faithful interpreters of the feelings of tho people by passing the bill of the noble lord. It was said the people were not good judges on political subjects, and that the present bill would give too much power. (Hear.) For himself he had no hesitation in saying, that lie would not object to any plan of reform that let in any class of his countrymen to the enjoyment of political rights ; but he would be unjust to the cause that had the whole of his heart, if he did not give the best support in his power to the plan proposed by the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) He trusted it would be supported by the mass of the people of England. He would warn the people, if his voice could be heard, of the danger of not giving it their best suppott. The lion. member for Newport appeared delighted at the thought that it would not satisfy the people. He had probably as touch tommuoi cation with the people as that learned gentleman, and from all he had heard, as well as from the justice of the measure itself, he war convinced the people of England would and ought to be satisfied. (Hear.) (Lea' part of the debate on the part of the opponents of the measure was made up of taunts on the ministers, some of whom were not always favour able to reform • but the people of England eared nothing about that. It might be a go od joke to talk of the budget ; but u hat the people lot iced at was whether the bill would give them the just rights they had been an long endeavouring to attain? (Hear, hear.) Taunts were used about division in the Cabinet—what was that to him or to the people ? Oct this question there was no division Its the Cabinet, and the taunts Caine with a bail grace from some of those by whom they were used. On a former question of great int' ortance, the right honourable baronet i.e low him (Sir Robert Peel) took the manly pea that must ever entitle bi n , to the gratitude of the country. He had borne such taunts.—one of his dearest relatives had read against him one of his own former speeches ; had he then allowed himself to he deterred from the honourable course he was pursuing, instead of the immortal character he had acquired, where would he now be? He would be justly regarded as unfit to govern empires, because not capable of governing himself. What was then the language of the honourable anti learned member fcr Bo roughhridge ? snstead of Althorp and Co. it was then Peel ar.d Co. He well remembered the words ; It was too good a joke to he lost, and the honourable and learned gentleman had committed a pla giarism on himself for the purpose of serving it up again for the entertainment of the house. (A laugh.) There was another joke too, reproduced last night. Tile Hon. and Learned Gentleman was the expiring Member for Boroughbridge. He was then the expiring At. torney.General.— (Great laughter.) He was then so waggish on the Right Horottrable Baronet, and probably thought his joke might divert him from his purpose of saving an empire—(latighter) or perhaps he thought the Right lion. Brooklet might abandon it sooner than lose his friendship; but public men must make up their minds to great reverses. The Right Hon. Gentleman persevered and lost the Learned Gentleman's friendship, who had the satisfaction of hearing the house ring with cheers in admiration of his jokes. (Great laughter.) It appeared to him that the conduct of Ministers wanted no jusiitication. Supposing they had remained oat of office, where was a Government to be formed ? Could the opponents of this Bill form a Government ? The Right Ilsnourahle Baronet below hint 'fled failed to do it ; if it could be done by mortal man he would have suc ceeded, but he had failed. It could only be done on two principlea— on the principle of reform, or on the principle of an;i-reform. The Right lion. Baronet and his colleagues went out of office brcause ;hey could not carry on a Government on the anti-reform principle—that was admitted to be the real cause—not the Civil List. Ile would like. then, to know what Government could be formed but a sorer:anent of reformers. (Hear.) What made him so anxious that the late Go. vemment should go out—(if on the division which caused their re• meat, he had /Mewed any indecorous haste in pressing the Right Hon. natol , tt for an answer whether they would retire, he begged his panto:) —it was the conviction, that none hut a Reform Government could go on with safety to the country—and that question once adjust ed. he hoped the Right Hon. Baronet and his friends would be in. duced to put their shoulders to the wheel, and drag the car tit state through a long ear. er of glory and renown. (Hear, hear.) He had seen penal inflictions mitigated— coniniercial restraints removed— religious disabilities give way before the spirit of truth—and in all the right hon. hart. bore a distinguished part. In one view he gained the most glorious victory, a victory Dyer himself. He hoped he would now add his name to those who had been the greatest benefactors of their c. tin. try, by giving his support to a reform that would secure its safety, and honour, and happiness. (The hon. gentleman sat down amidst loud cheering ) 111 r. HART DAVIS addressed ;he house for some time, but was inaudible in the gallery. Mr. BARING said the proposal of the noble lord was, in point of fact, a new constitution. Those who supported it might say that the old constitution was worn eut.--that it worked so ill that it must be changed; but they mast admit that the bill they now proposed was a new constitution, as certainly as if it came fresh from the pigeon-holes of AbW Sieyes. (Hear, hear.) There had been various c.inatiturions tried in the world, but the oily successful trial of monarchy with a popular assembly was in this country. (Hear.) That coustitation was hitherto the admiration oldie world, and till lately, be thought the Pride of the country.—(Hear, hear.) That Constitution was hitherto King, Lords, and Commons; if this bill were to pass he feared it must r • i IP. Alik 's & - ) I g/ / ;Vielli. IrACrB442) 0 OltallikAMP \ 13ESSCAZeiji 2° o . 1 , 1788. • HOUSE OF COIIINIONS. The gallery was not opened till five o'clock, owing to there being three ballots, namely, for Durham (City), Grantham, and Hythe.— The crowd, as on former days, was great, so that the gallery was soon excessively filled. Mr, DICKINSON presented the report of the Galway (County) Election Committee, which confirmed the Return of the Sitting Member. Mr. A. CAMPBELL brought In the Glasgow Cross.etre4:t Bill.— Read a firct time. Mr. BRISCOE brought in the Indigent Blind School Bill.—Read $ first time. Lord MORPETH brought in the Manchester and York, and the Manchester and Sheffield Railway Bills.—Severally read a first time.— He then brought in the Liverpool Canal and Supply of Water Bill. Mr. ROBINSON postponed till Turwlay next the presentation of a petition from Waterford, regarding Newfoundland. REFOILM.-.POPULATION RETURNS. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved for various returns as to the po pulation of particular boroughs to be disfranchised ; the various returns to he selected from the census of 1830. Sir C. ‘VETHEItELL said it was a most extraordinary course to adopt ; first to bring in a bill, and then to call for the posthumous in formation. Mr. O'CONNELL replied, that such was not the fact ; first, there was us yet no bill, and, secondly, the motion was only to provide infor mation to facilitate the enquiries of honourable members. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the information required distinguished the boroughs under a population of 2,000, mid between 2,000 and 4,1M0, from the census of 1830 ; and if he heal moved for the informa tion be now moved for, and in the shape in which lie had moved for it before he had moved for leave to bring in the bill, he should have let the house into the nature of the plan now submitted to the house, pre viously to its being regularly brought forward. Mr. CALCRAFT said, the Noble Lord had not known the plan twenty.four hours before lie brought it forward. [Considerable sensation and amazement were excited by the cannon ading of the " Lumber Troop" craft, which passed down the ricer at this time.] Lord JOHN RUSSELL replied, that he knew the plan in the middle of January In all its great and leading outlines—none of which had been changed—and they were those which he had proposed.—(Cheers ) Sir H. liA RDINGE expressed the wish to have information as to the present state of the population of Gateshead, North and South Shields, Sunderland, &c. before these revolutionary measures went further. The plan was to give in the county of Durham six additional Members ; that he considered an unfair application of the Noble Lord's principle of taking population in some degree for the basis. Oh. STANLEY wished to have the fullest information before the house, convinced that the more information they bad, the more satisfied the,country would be with the plans. Lord NUGENT said, the returns regarding the population of the census now preparing, would remove many'srron regarding Caine and Tavistock. Mr. HUME said, he wished the time of the house to be saved, and observed, that he had never before seen the call for information thus ob. strutted ; if it were not sufficient let more be called for. Mr. SLANEY trusted that the house and the country would mark the spirit with which information was thus obstructed.—(Cheers and No.) It was obstructing information.—(Cheers and No.) Yes ! and it was because the light was feared. That was the truth, and be re peated, he trusted that the country, as well as the house, would not fail to mark the spirit which characteriaed this opposition. Mr. CHOKER rished not to obstruct ihe information ; but to obtain more than was proferred, and this he considered was requisite to the due understanding of the subject. Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, the information contained in the census for MO was now printing, if they would only wait for it ; it was already on the table, and the returns now asked were selections from such docmcnts. Mr. PERCEVAL was for additional information, because the more that was given, the more decidedly would the measure be scouted by the house.—(Hear.) Mr. HOBHOUSE complained of the language of the late Secretary for Ireland (Sir H. Hanlinge) in calling the measure revolutionary— language ought not to be use ;that was not proved by argument..—" Re volutionary !" why half the aristocracy, and all the people were calling for the Reform.—(Loud cheers.) Respected as that 1011. vidual was, his language would have its weight, and he therefore re gretted its precipitate use. Sir H. LI AR HINGE replied, that he had used the word revo lutionary advisedly. The measure was most revolutionary, and he declared it was calculated to pull the crown from the king's head. —(Cheers.) ,He hoped there would be a clause introduced to su persede the necessity of sending bills to the other house--(Cries of " No, no.") Sir G. IVARRENDER trusted that the information would not he resisted, and he lamented the feeling that had shown itself this evening on both sides of the house. Calm discussion would effect more a here the cause was good. Mr. BARING moved, that the returns as to the amount of popu lation should regard all boroughs, not only those which sent Mem bers, but all where there were les s than 2,000 or under 4,000 inha bitants.—(Hear.) Sir C. WETHERELL seconded this amendment, for the purpose of repelling the charge that he wished to keep back information. Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection to the additional information being produced. The motion was eventually agreed to be put is amended by Mr. Baring. Mr. K. DOUGLAS moved for returns of the population of all boroughs in Scotland. Mr. KENNEDY said the adjacent places were required to be in cluded, for many of the boroughs in Scotland did not constitute one third part of the towns. Mr. LA BOUCHERE said the like remarks would apply to Taun ton and other places in England. All the returns were eventually moved. REFORM OF PARLIAMENT. The Order of the Day haying been read for resuming the adjourned debate on Lord J. Russell's motion, Mr. G. BANKES said the House and the country had becn placed in an extraordinary situation, in consequence of the unusual secrecy which the ministers had observed regarding the bill, for it was manifest that the noble mover was in want of information, and now was obliged to ask for fresh light. As to secrecy, where was the necessity for it, and what did the country care about it ? The house was ready to give the information, and he (Mr. Bankes) was ready to receive the information; but if, as the First Lord of the Treasury had said that it was, that the house should have this information, he (Mr. Bankes) would remind him that it would take a considerable time to make up the return, which the house should have had before. ['he house had been surprised at the announcement of the measure, so had he (Mr. Bankes) been very much surprised indeed at the announce ment; yet the noble lord said that he was in possession of the plan of the measure for three months. The plan had now gone out to the public—and now, when the measure was in the third night of the dis cussion, the house was still without further information on the subject, but what had been given in the speech of the noble lord on this sweep ing measure. The honourable member for Westminster (Mr. Hob house) had reprobated the phrase revolutionising being applied to the U J N°. 13,724. tar . II C J~