Star. — London, England, 1817-02-08 00:00:00

Inticipation, such a description as would enable them )n see, at one view, the particular scale of expendi ture on which his Majesty's Government were in the first instance prepared to act. He was aware that it was the opinion of many Gentlemen, that it would have been better it Ministers had called Parliament ' together at an earlier period, es that they had atten d, d to the intimation of a Noble 1..0rd, given last Session, respecting . reductions. But he was confident that on due reflection, the House would not now be - generally of teat opinion. i It was not is the first I moments of pence . thai r fche House could be compe tent to take a full and deliberate view of the whole of the public e ipenditure. He thought it would be better in the first instance for Milligan to submit to the House, under their public • reiponsibitity. their own views of the subject, thin to leave Gentlemen to run a race with the Servants "of the Crown, with out having any explicit exposition before them. He therefore trusted that the Hailse would be convinced, when they came to look into the subject, that / Minis-1 ties have not tailed to look with the most scrupulous anxiety to every point, in order to • propose such re ductions at aright be found worthy of adoption ; and though they had never relaxed in their considerations to effect this desirable object, they had been still more ardent in theirainvestigatioas during the inter val since the last Session. Indeed,,he did not on his conscience believe, that the reductions could have practicably been made more soon than they have, without incurring great public inconvenience. Since the peace of 1815, an immense number of soldiers, seamen, and marines, had been disbanded, or dis charged from the respectis. services, and were com pelled to earn an honest livelihood, without...dispa raging the glory they had obtained during their Ling career in the public cause. It was his task to state on the - present occasion the amount of the different forces still kept up, but without going into a minute examination, as the particulars of the various set -vices would be opened to Parliament at ano tber opportunity, when the House would be ena bled to examine all those Estimates and Items, previously to giving their votes for the Supplies.— Eut the House must be aware, that it would be ins • possible for the services to be carried on, without the necessary grants of money being consented to. He • wished, however, particularly to state, that - it was • not his intention to trait on the House to vote the Es timates for the service of the entire year, but only for a certain number Of. - usooths, during which the in qiiries would take piece, which would place the. . House in such a situation as to enable them to avail themselves of all- manner of informatics'. As, there fore, every Member would have an Opportunity of • satitying himself, it would be a great sacrifice of their • time, it he were to enter into a minute statement this right. But his main object was, only to put the House in•possession of a general description of each branch of the service, in comparison with the last Jeer. He could assure the House that Government had endeavoured to form these measures with a .strict reference to the situation of the country, and the exigencies of the State, and in such a manner as ap. peered to them a wise combination. The object of the Committee, he apprehended, was Maio Mime mine into the .espenditure of the country then the income of it, with a view to adispt any-new system of finance ; otherwise he should have felt himself incompetent to the task. Parliament naturally felt, anxious that the public expenditure should undergo a fair, impartial, and candid examination ; aad ke could assure the House that there was the most anxious desire on the part of Minitters to court an examination into this subject. They did not feel ' themselves pledged, as a point of honour, to object to any fair view that might be taken of the subject, different from their owd—as the only thin on • which they rested their . pride and glory was, to find oat the means, or see them found out by ethers, by which the ' pantry could be benefited.— Much as the nation 'en ded for its glory upon ' its' n a sal and military. tinders, they (the Ministers t . lilt tbat there waifos mut that had stoodl it* ifttr . - greater service than white credit of the cbury, which had so eminent ossisted us throughoutUg tremendous struggle: These could be no difference • Opinion as to the general prineple of the necessity of looking into the expenditure of the country; but above all, we ought to see that the faith of Parlia ment be inviolably preserved —(Lord crier if hear, hear, hear 1) ; and at such a time it should be proudly made known, that this hallowed and happy country, England (for great and happy she unquestionably • was, notwithstanding her present temporary difficul . • tier,), disdained to purchase a moment of ease and strength, by failing in the good faith to which she stood honourably and conscientiously pledged. (Neer.) He should now, without further observation; . proceed to call the attention of the House to the state of the army. In the comparison of the Estimates tor the present year, he should OW the armies in France and Lodi' aside; as not keing maintained at the, expense offside country. The land forces et home and abroad, the Houk would recollect, by their vote of last year, amounted in rank and file to J 9,000 men, of which 59,000 were serving in Great Britain and Ireland, and 46,000 ia.Fraace. It was now pro posed to make a reduction from the 5%000- d 5000 men. Out of the Estimate for the Colonial branch, the reduction would be 19,000. making a total of eighteen thousand men less for the service of this year '4l . than the last. Now, he felt no hesitation in saying, that this reduction was resolved upon, under a strong sense of the difficulties whist oppressed the country. This he thought it his duty to state, that the reasons for it , might not be misapprehended. He thought Ministers were justified in looking at the state of the Colonies, when contemplating military reductions, because there wasitneralphiion that the price of their. defence, accordiatto the peseta establishment, might. be too dear. but ns to our home defence, be was ' confident that time mad be but one feeling in' the- a country. It must' be dse universal opinion, that. for , this grand object, no price could be too great, and the only question • was, what *as the best course that . ' coOld be adoPted, as he was sure that enough had presented itself to convince Gedtlemen of the neces sity of not reducing the forces for home defence to • too tow a standard. Thus, the corn - pad:on of this year with the 11,64 'toed as 81 thousand men to • ninety-nine thousand; the reductions, including three thousand cavalry. and 13.000 men from our different establishments Abroad. The vote of last year alto. gether was fur IMMO nun ; this year it was pro- posed collectively for 123.000. The Indian yore would be for seventeen thousand instead of twenty thousand. On the whole, therefore, he would repeat, 'hat of the troops in Great Britain, Ireland, aqd the Colonies, t h e num b er would be eighty-one thousand instead of ninety-nine thous and men, and for all the military service taken together, 12 4 3,00 0 instead of 150,000. Io the Estimates, there would appear a sum of £220,000 to be provided for, on account of the regiments which had not returned from abroad, but which were on their way home, aid in a course of reducf ion. He should now merely state, that in the Estimates the whole of the army vote would be, £6,538,060 for the land forces ; but the other con tingent branches would bring it up to £6,830,000' which, with the addition of the expenses occasioned', by the reductions, would make the whole total a7,050,0(X). The Commissariat in Great Britain would be it 500,0041 This expenditure would be ad-1 muted as one which ransenecessarily be incurred by the country, as it was disbursed in the purchase of bread, meat, and fodder, under partiCular circumstances. and it was naturally much increased by the enhanced price of provisions. With respect to the Barrack Establishinent, it had been so far reduced as from £178;000 which it lately cost, to require no more than fromseventy thousand weighty thousand pounds. 'rite total demand for the Commissariat and Bar rack Departme.tts might therefore be taken at eight hundred and eighty thousand pounds for Great Bri tain and Ireland. After briefly recapitulating some of the items in the preceding statement in the course of which he observed, that the Extraordmaries of the Army had not undergone any reduction. the Noble Lord observed, that the total charge for the whole Army Service was £9,230,000, while the provision last year was £10,564,000 ; so that the reduction of the expenses in this service produced a saving of A 01,534,000,—He should now proceed to give the House a general outline of the Ordnance Estimates : —The charge for the last year, even after every deduction then made, had been the sum of £1,696,000; that for the present year amounted' only to £1,246,000; so that there would be a dicta. notion of four hundred and fifty thousand pounds on that single item. This saving was effected by the reduction of a whole battalion in the Corps of Sap pens and Miners. and of about three thousabd artil lery. He had already stated. that the reduction in the general services of the Army amounted to 4111,334,000; if the four hundred and fifty thousand pounds saved in the Ordnance Department were joined to it, the total reduction would be £1,784,000. He thought it necessary to call the attention of the House to an important feature in the Army Esti mates. They amounted, for the present year, to £6,588,000; but out of these 5e2,551,000 were for services already performed, and totally unconnected with those of the year. So that if the House did not vote one single soldier to guard the British Empire, the £2,541,000 to which he had alluded, must still be provided for the Half Pay of Officers, the Retired List, and Pensions already granted. It was then a fact, that instead of amounting to £6,538,000, the real vote would be under four millions sterling.— When Gentlemen spoke of the large expense of the Army, be wished them to take that point into consi deration. For it ought not to be forgotten, that. lh the °permit= of saving, his Majesty's bffimisters were always driven to the necessity of giving half pay.— All their economical efforts were thus counteracted to a certain degree. As they reduced the force on active duty, they threw on the country a proportio nate expense of at least one-thirll, if not fully one half, what the whole expenditure of the force which they reduced would have been. had it been left on the footing of activity.—He should now pass to the arrangements proposed for the Navy. The House had voted thirty-three thousand urea last year for that service. Out of these, twenty-three thousand were for the actual service of the year, and ten thou sand in progress of reduction.—( Wear. hear.) — Since that time, however, it had been found ad visable to reduce the vote to a provision of eighteen 'thousand men instead of twerity.three thousand. It rfirritild in fact be nineteen thousand men, as it was I liot intended to reduce. the . Royal Marines...(ater, iser).—That was a most useful force. and one, ,which if once broken down, could not easily be form ed again. whilst the best seansyn Could always be collected with the greatest facility...(f/ear, hear). — The reduction of seamen would of course allow of a reduction of ships and other naval expenses.. The charge for the Navy amounted last year to the sum of £10.114,000, and this year to only 5e6,397,000 ; so that there was a reduction in that single branch of no less than £3.717,000. It was also to be con sidered, that within that vote, reduced as it was, considerable sums would be applied to purposes en tirely unconnected with the service of the present year.. Not less than £500,000 would be wanted for the payment of a Transport Debt previously existing. :The immense saving in the Navy Estimates would be produced in part by the following reductions : Its the Wear and Tear Department, 5t1,356,000. en Extraordinaries £291,000. and in Transports 5e711,000. And besides all Mt, and beyond the £3,717,000 now reduced, there was the proepett of the discontinuance of the £500,000 which he bad mentioned. The charge for Miscellaneous Services had been last year £1,900,000 for England, and ,e600.000.f0r Ireland. It would amount this year only to one million for England, and £500,000 for Ireland, so that there would •be a saving in that branch of one million. Ho would now recapitulate the reductions effected in the various departments of the public service. In the Army' In lie Ordnance In the Navy • hi tbs Mhealsaeous &Mee, ' . A 1,314,000 450,000 4,717,0110 1,000440 . . . • Gantt Tow , .C 6,50400 0. On the other baud, the Charges for the pinsent : MT would be as follows t . Far the Anal - - . - .C 7,050,090 For Barrack. " - - - enohou . Fur hatreoedineries - - 1,100,000 Fee the Ordnance . - - 4140,000 - Far the Navy - • 0.197,000 Far Mi.ciusneees Services - • 1000.00 u Total % iISOTS,OOO in submitting these Estimates to the House, he thought it would be unfair to attempt to particularist and. tic those sums which must be provided for this year, but which might not be reqoired the next. It would be giving a pledge on the part of Ministers by which it could not be espected clay Amid bind themselves. It was as impossible for the Govern moat, as it would be for a pritiateindivichral, to be able to regulate. in a positive manner, the expenses of the next year, so as to say that they would not exceed a certain estimate. In the next year, other sources of expenditure might arise • but other deduc dons might, no doubt, also be made. Government would be on the watch, and would avail themselves of every opportunity of retrenching expenses. Out of the 818.373.000 proposed for the present year, he would shew what sums might probably cease to be wanted for the nest. It was likely that .2220,0(X) might be saved in the Army Estimates, from; regi ments which were now in progress\ al teckirion. The Estraordinaries might be reduceds£Boo, o oo, or from 41,300,000, to 21,000.000. In the Ordnance fifty thousand pounds might be saved in contracts, and in the Navy Department, the £500,000 which he had already stated, forming a total of 21,070,000, so that the Estimates ought to be considered as amounting to seventeen, rather than eighteen mil liens. He had already alluded, whilst speaking on the Army Estimates, to the charge of £2,551,000 for services performed. l'he same view ought to be taken of similar items in other services. '1 hose in the Navy amounted to 41,271,000 exclusive of four hundred thousand pounds in pensions. lii the Ord mince to £229,ooo,forming a grand total of /14,445,000 totally unconnected with the services of the year, and which most be provided, if not one soldier were kept. or one ship retained. When the public mind was led to contemplate the apparently great charges, for the army and navy, he hoped that a due separa tion would be made between those which had grown out of the war, and those which really arose from the necessities of the year. If the House looked to. the Estimates of 1792, as a point of comparison, it ought to recollect, that the charge tor performed ser vices scarcely existed at that time. It the 41,070,000 which would not recur next year, together with the 44,445,000 applied to repay past setvices, were de ducted from the present Estimates, their real amount would not be found to exceed £13,858,000. It would tike oft much time to enter into a particular comparison of these estimates with those of 1791 — But it ought not to be forgotten that it WAS after six years progressive reduction that Mr. Pitt had brought them down to 45,200,000. They only embraced. at that time one branch of the United Kingalorn. But now they included Ireland, and the whole British Empire. It the House looked to Ireland at that period (aid haw different was its situation then from what It was at present !), they would find that its imposes amounted to one million a year, which rais ed the total of the estimates in 1792, to £6,200,000. They were certainly now £13,858,000, about the double. But then what had been the growth of the Sickish Empire, and the extent of -its Colonies?— ' What had been the situation of Europe, the great weird change that had taken place, and the temper treated by it in France ? Those were reasons which bad altered the condition and increased the expenses of Great Britain. The very measures adopted by she House also accounted for a large portion of the imeginented expenditure of the country. The pay of the Army bad been doubled, and ether allowances had beets granted to Soldiers and Officers, both at ' home and abroad,. which made the expenditure of no etiterioe for that of the present time. As an instance of this, he should etate,-thnt a regiment of cavalry, consisting of 700 men, would in 1792 have cost only 2 28,000, whilst it cost at present 8 38,000. 410,000 more than at that period. There were now sixteen thousand men of that arm in the British army. Prejudices should not be entertained against the sin. cerity of Ministers in their efforts at economy, because the estimates of thepresent year amounted to thirteen millions, and those of 1792 only to six millions.— They bad already opened one source of reduction to the House. There was another, the effect of which would It mote remote, but not less sure. On the tome four millions applied to performed services, a gra; dual diminution could not fail to take place. The burthen would certainly be borne gratefully by the country as long as it should exit.—(Hear, hear) But there would be a reduction in that branch, not only by the cessation of the lives of individuals who received pensions, but because Ministers would think it their duty to wall as many Half-pay Officers into active service, whenever it would be in their power. He had inq uired into the probable reduction of the number of individuals in the Army and Navy, who were now inscribed on the Half-pay List.— It amounted to one hundred thousand, fitty.siz thou sand of which belonged to the army. Assuming forty to be their medium age, it was probable, ac cording to the tables of calculation, that one half of them would have ceased to exist in the next twenty three years.—(Hear, bear). —Tee proportion would therefore be about two thousand men a-year, and £lOO,OOO. In the present estimates, his Majesty's Governinent bad used their strongest endeavours, without endangering the safety of the country, to frame them is such a manner as to bring the expen diture of the comma, -within the wale of its means.— Atstbe close of the psost arduous struggle in which any country was ever engaged, Ministers had so con ducted the public affairs, that alter the stupendous exertions of war, and in the first year of peace, they had had.the satisfaction to remit not less than eighteen millions sterling of tares to the people. and found themselves able to square the expenditure of the, country within its ineaos.—(flear, hear). —His Right Honourable Friend, the Chaucellor of the Exchequer, would soon open his part to the House, and give them details which might be relied upon, of the means which the country possessed of meeting its ' expenditure. At the present moment there would have been a balance in favour of the country, had there not been a charge for a provision for the Un fdided Debt, amounting to about 011t4330,000. But cuts then an improvement of i , 4111 - .590,000 might kioii taken place if there-had -bur been a - deficiency rellse !avenue of the ConsolidatOt Fund chi: year.— A.rdutfus as the difficulties of the nation had been ; accumulating as had been the deficiencies in the Revenue. yet there would have been an improve ment on the general balance.—(Hear,loar, kat). But what turned the scale and prevented the tide of prosperity from flowing as he wished into the king dom, arose from a measure adopted with respect to the country with which he was more particularly conoected i he mesas the consolidation of the Englith and Irish Exchequers, which imposed an additional chase on the latter. Having shewn that the Go. Ternatent bad cadeavoured to bring the public ta- penditnre wits,in tte means of the eoUntry, he vested that the House would see that the Estimates had been cast on a principle of economy and moderati..n, and had not been pushed beyond the necessity of n it case. It was not necessary, therefore, to tike gloomy views of the future. Members. en the contrary, would he able to hold out to their constituents a not very distant prospect of progressive reductions. He would not attempt to disguise that the present year had inflicted the severest pressure upon all classes. No individual could be so inattentive as not to feel that the hand of PitoVIDENCE had been extended to affect his situation, by withholding the genial in. fluenoe of the seasons .—( Loud shouts of Hear, hear.) It oughj perhaps td add to the regret of all, to lear n that they had not been exposed singly to that cala. ashy, but that it had been lelt more or less (kepiy by. every state And people on the Continent of Lie rope. It be were to make a distinction bete am an e States, it would be in favour of this country, zh e pressure on which had been less severe, or at least more supportable, than on any other European ea tioa. It was also a consolation to reflect, thi: if itt sufferings hat 7 ;eeat great, the ardour for telieviny ahem had .. • . been less remarkable throughout sit classes of tee community. Never had sympathy si powerfully exerted its influence before. It had not confined itself within the duties prescribed by the law. It had exerted itself for the relief of the sof= firer* with a degree of zeal known only in this country—(Hear, hear, hear.) He misted that the :same beneficent spirit would continue to operate, and he assured the House; that great as the exertions of the community had been, there was no quarter in which they had made a deeper impressi o n than on the highest quarter of all, by whom every thing was dune to iacrease their effect—(Hear, hear.) He was in / fact authorised to state to the House that the thus , trious Individual at the head of the Government, his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, had declared that it was his intention to abstain from receivieg such portion of the funds out of the quarter of the Civil List appropriated to his personal r sprint.: and those of his Household, as, with ill: advice of his Counsellors, it would be deemed he mightab stain front receiving without incurring the reproach of Parliament, or committing the dignity of ti..- Throne. sum his Royal Highness intended should he ap plied to the public service. It would amount to we fifeh . of the whole amnsast of his persu •al tevenue, for t'te rest of the Civil List was as much for public services, as any of the estimates proposed this night. The sum appropriated to his Royal Highness's house. told consisted of re`209,000, the l'rivy Purse to £0),000, and the Duchy us Cornwall prod( relo,ooo—re.so,ooo would be about the filth of personal amount, and that was tee sum which ;. tended to apply to the 'milk wants. He wished share the privations of the people, as he had their exertions and their glnry-e(Hear, hear) should not at the same time suffer the Civil List get into debt, and trusted that he should never ep . be under the necessity of applying to Parliament its account. His Majesty's official servants were , desirous Qt contributing as much as it lay in power to the relief of the State. The sum wl they wished to give up out of their salaries might seem very considerable in itself amid the wet! services of the ' , Ir. Jut it was not so much attm as Or, pr;:.eiple which ought to be cc - It might not produce much reiief, but it be received as the best proof of sensibility could be given on their part-(Near,-hear, her., They intended to relinquish the same proportion their salaries as would have been paid to the Prp Tax, had that impose continued to exist. Tt c duction which it had effected last year from all public servants, and the OfEeers of the Army Navy, had amounted to re 900,000. It would now rise so high, but though not large in itsell might not be found unworthy of public notice. s'sould now have no hesitation in stating the . which he meant to pie sue. It was that wtach House had always pursued, the appointing of a cl Committee by ballot. The word ballot sa:med create great alarm among the Gentlemen opp . if he were to judge by a sr -eh of an HNIOL and Learned Member, no: I anguished by its velty—(Hear, h.ar, and lat s .i.,er)—though, pet' uttered in a little more mod 'rate tone clan which the late Mr. Sheridan .ised to make on ballot occasions, and of which it was a col , faithful echo. (Hear.) He thought that the an, forms of Parliament should not be thrown neon all the alterations which had of late years prevad What was there in a ballot which placed a Me so much under the observation of those who any influence—(Leughter).—er were supposed have any over his vote ? (fond cries of Heir, If he wished to defend ballo's, he might avail!. self of the anthcrity of an Hovourahle l3 , ronet posite, if not of the Honourahle and Learned'_ man himself, for he thought he recollected their daring, that without ballot all elections roust be equal to produce a just repres trtation of the A Committee of Enquiry had been appiinted lot in 1797, and had published a MASS of ttie voluminous and useful intproiatinn. He was , aware at first that tht:e was a precedent of a date, in which the Howse had appointed a ' tee of Inquiry in a difter..nt manner. This 1807. It his object, flowerer, were to nr Committee which shead possess the con?, the Hulse and of the eryintry, he would net that precedent. When an Honourable and L. Gentleman, Mr. Bitldulph, nate no :rare, when a Member of the House, proposed a mittee of Inquiry into all Offices, with a view reduction of sinecures, it might have been supposed that the Gentlemen thtn in haetti!ftil'eta him their support. Litt they not allow hies to name his own Committee .Ther took ; the appoiiamert out of his bands, though , they made him a Member of it. plated him in complete solitude with tweet other Gentlemen—( Hear, ' hear, and !Jr The ChanTell.4 cf the Exchequer at the ti had relieved his friends Irons all trouble, named the whole Committee. If its forma tion had been attended to. it must have htea likely to prove most partial, as there were c.ale' nineteen Gentlemen in it. who were in the habit of voting with Ministers. —( Thar, larghter.) There was nothing which he shoal strongly deprecate at the outset of All 114" Importance as any difference oft opinion be, tOl IL I ten ant ntrk, the I at lean ipean na if ice elieviop ghout all tpathy se t had not by the I the sot= y in this that the orate, and . :ertione of touter in tan on the was dune is Was in the Illus.. Iment, his declared rcceiviog r ter of the txprlises Is: Advice might ab- iptoAch of Tturone. mid he ap- ant to one- -1 ?mime, for public this night. !es's house. Purse to produced filth 01 his !hies heir.- wished to had shared icir) —He ril List to sever again lament on rs V?Cre A!J lay in their iutli which s might not ie exteaded much the consideree. it should ility which r, Iter.)— oportion of he Pr prrty . Tt e Ce- rem all the Army and would not in itself, it totice. He tiie coin • t wt.ich rof Selec sa:med NI ow ifit ,nutirabk I by its no , perhaps clan tare make on a. a tolerabl: t the antic:: wit orn I; re prvlliitle. a Memo- se who h supposed • ,t avail l3 , ronet r, reed Gent. led their must be 7 f the peoP ir.ted by b of the no. He was fit of d a Comic This VAS I nomina :on fidence 116 not ae and L. are mire, lu ()bed a C. ! a view eett nature pltver they We IMitree 31Z:' S of it, 1 ; twaltf" be time 0 ible, and 2 . . ea !re 1..' 1 " i o the cal . ' ta r, le shou1.1:: ~,q . iiry Y,l !NOVO