Star. — London, England, 1822-07-11 00:00:00

~` • POOR LAWS. Mr. NOLAN said, that the Petitions whicle-seere upon the table of the House, relating to the state of the Poor Laws, demanded that somerbing should be done to remedy the evils which had grown out of them. The state of the population must be inti mately connected with this subject, and the increa e of population in Great Britain withia the last twenty years was nearly ten per cent. The increase of the Poor-rates since 1750 was tenfold ; and if the evil were suffered to proceed, it must eventually destroy the agricultural property of the country. Various rata.is had been suggested to accomplish that end, one of which was to get rid of the Poor Laws altoge ther. Ile confessed that he could not i agiee to such a proposal. He considered the lower .classes to be a great source of the strength of the country, and their interests required attention and support. He took a view of the effect or the Poor Laws in this country for the last two or three centuries, apd contended that under them the lower classes had prospered to an ex tent far beyond those of any other nation. "He need jot go to foreign nations for an illustration: of this, when so unfortunate a one was afforded in the'iirre sent unhappy situation of the poor in Ireland. ' He therefore believed, that without destroying these laws, he thought the proper way would be to endeavour to restore their administration to what it was under the statute of Elizabeth. The Hon. and Learned Meru her then proceeded to skew that the.present mode of • administering the Pour Laws was at complete vari a!tce with the spirit and intention of that statute. The con equelices of this had brought about all the abuses which had crept in upon the system. The funds had b. - come ma:-aoministe: ed, and the poor man had be come an annuitant upon them, not as a matter of charity, but as he considered it, a matter of right. The test statute, altering this supposed right, was, he conceived, that of George 11. Another statute evablid Oser_ters to relieve the poor at their own houses. This, he thought, was a most mischievous statute ; though he thought it, in general, impolitic to bring the old and the young, the able and disabled, the idle an.] the industrious together. The Hon. and Learned Member then proceeded to notice the seve ral statutes regulating the Poor LawS. The system of Select Vestries had been found highly beneficial, and he proposed to endeavour to extend the benefit which hai esulted from it. In like manner he wished to preserve the office of Assistant Overseer, at a sa lary, decla , ing that, among smaller parishes one Overseer should per form the duty of two. This As sistant Overseer should be appointed by the Vestry, but should be controuled by the Magistrates. The next provision referred to the Rate. At present the Select Vestry had no power to settle the rate. This power he thoughi it would be reasonable to give them. As the law now stood they had the power, in ce.tain cases, to make inquities to enable them to dis tinguish the meritorious film the dissolute applicant , for tel ef. This power he proposed to extend, he hoped not unreasonably, by giving the Justices of the Peace and the Select Vestry additional means of making those inquiries. He also would suggest a de clarwory clause, giving a power to employ the poor out of the parish upon which they were chargeable, provided the distance was not unreasonable, he would say nine or ten miles. The other alterations of the law which he was about to propose were of a more novel nature. The first would enact the making out of lists, containing full particulars of the allowance paid to the applicant, and the amount of his earn- ings. This would enable the House, at a future pe.. riod, probably, to ascertain the toot of the evil. These lists were to be returned to the Magistrates, who were to give orders accordingly, for the direc tion to w itLh the labours of the pauper should be directed. This might lead to much benefit with re gard to the improvement of our turnpike roads. The next alteration was an enactment, that at the end of the year the account should be summarily made up ; and that those who were continually and constantly a burden on the parish, should be put to severer la bour. His object was to encourage a degree of am bition among the poor, and to diminish the number of spungers on the parish fund. He proposed also to make other provisions, principally to enforce re gulat ity in the keeping of the part h accounts, with out throwing much additional labour on the Over seers. The subject of settlement admitted of so much difference of opinion, and invited so much discussion, that he had thought it better not to meddle with it at present. If, however, his measure should be favour ably received by the ouse, he might be induced to offer some suggestion on that important subject in the course of the next Session. For the same reason he had forboine to touch on the subject of removal ; but he would observe that, contrary to some opinions of considerable weight, he thought removal should be rendered easy, and settlements difficult. It was true that this had the effect of increasing the burthens on the Agricultural Interest; but the difficulty was, how to get rid of this inconvenience. He, of course, should at present refrain from offering any opinion on this point. The Hon. and Learned Member, after some further observations on the importance of ma gisterial duties with reference to this subject, con cluded by moving " For leave to Wing in a Bill to amend the laws respecting the Poor." The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, a very useful discussion on the subject might be obtained by giving the Hon. and Learned Member leave to bring in the Bill. He felt much gratitude to the Hon. and Learned Member for kis labours; especially as they appeared directed towards an advantageous admini stration of the present laws, rather than the propo sal of new ones. He was sure that the House would agree with him in saying, that the Hon. and Learned Member had opened the subject with great modera tion and candour—(Hear, hear). After a few words from Mr. MoNcx, leave was given to bring in the Bill. ALM BILL. Mr. Secretary PEELmuved the Order of the Day for receiving the Repert on this Bill. After a conversation between Mr. BEIIVAL, Mr. Secretary PEEL, .Mr. ScARLETT, 3.nd the SPEAKER, the Report was brought up and agreed to. Mr. SCARLETT then moved the addition to the Bi:1 of several clauses. The first was for contracting the power given by the tenth section of the Bill to • • m ight salts tht iblismorof his that the plan was lisiitartki, anC tried in the Home Counties in 1) .. Right Hon. Friend 1d that it was to be December next. - • local Magistrates. The second was to , abuse of the Sill, by forbidding tits, renior ,person. being the subject of a country ill this, unless it should be previously deposed that he was engaged in a conspiracy against the vernment of that country. This, he AMr. Scarlett conceived, would not be inconsistent with the fessed object of the Bill. The next clause was for tecting that there be laid before both Houses of Par liament a list of the aliens sent out of the country un der the Act. Another was empowering aliens to call for a communication in writing of the charges against them upon which it was proposed to send them away.' This was to enable aliens to avail themselves with effect, of the right of appeal to the Privy Council.— It would be seen that there clauses did not interfere with the powers given by the Bill. Mr. Secretary PEEL opposed all the clauses. The first was unnecessary, as the local Magistrates could not act without special authority from the Secretary of State. No objection had ever been made to give a return, on motion, of Op persons tent out of the country under the Act, and the clause on that sub ject was also unnecessary. The appeal to the Privy Council, he contended, was complete without the clause on that subject. As for the clause limiting the cases in which the Act was to be enforced, he thought Alit - Value of the Bill depended upon its being a dis cretionary power in the Executive. Past misconduct alone might be a good reason for removing an alien. The Rouse then divided on the bringing up of the first clause proposed . by Mr. SCARLET r : • • "Rsr the Clause • - 1$ Against it 39 Majority —26* The bringing up, of the other clauses was them ne gatived without a division. A Message from the Lords here announced their Lordships assent to several Bills. CURRIENCY. Mr. WESTERN, after alluding to the frequent disappointments he had met with in his desire to bring forward his motion on this subject, and to the circumstance of several of his friends having left the House, under the impression that he could nor bring it en to-night, proposed that his Resolutions be read and agreed to profortna, except the Wit, which might be reset ved for discussion on a future evening. The last was the only Resolution, he believed, which ad mitted of debate—the first one being merely matter lof dry statement. After a conversation which followed, between the . Marquis of LONDoNDERRY, Mr. RICARDO, Mr. HUS KISSON, and Mr. WICSTIERN, it was agreed that Mr. WESTERN should proceed, it being conceived that his first Resolutions not only were too argumentative, but involved also many assumed facts which were disputable. Mr. WESTERN then resumed. He might be accused of obstinacy in pressing his opinions on the attention of the House; but as ne conscientiously be lieved that the calamities of the country were to be attributed to the measure he complained of, he trusted his obstinacy would be forgiven. He denied that the statements he had embodied in his Resolutions could he questioned. He confidently asserted that many of the cultivators of the soil had been brought to ruin by the operation of our laws respecting the currency. The great landholders had not yet felt the pinch, necaute they were feeding on the vitals of the far rners. But even the landholder was drawing near to a state of degradation in consequence of the transfer, :sot to say the confiscation, of his property. He (Mr. Western) admitted that the Act of 1819 had been passed upon a sound principle, with a view to public faith, and with the best of motives ; but its effects had come on with a rapidity and to an extent which could not be foreseen by its authors. Even the troubles of Ireland were to be traced to a want of currency, and not a want of food ; all the statements which came from that country de scribed a superabundance of provisions, and com plained only of a want of money to purchase them. We were sending provisions to Irela.nd, and bringing back corn. Thus the agricultural peasantry of that country were actually expiring from ss ant, in the midst of plenty. The same would be the case with England, but for her poor-rates and her capital, by which means the poor of this country were supported by its capital, and that.alone. He wished that land lords would not deal so much in liberality as of late they had seen some do. Landlords had a right to ex pect all that was just and fair from their property, towards their families and tenants; more they ought not to exact, but even that the Bill of 1819 prevented the possibility of their obtaining. No contracts ought to be held binding entered into before that pe riod. He repelled the insinuation that the land owners of England were actuated by those sordid motives that had been ascribed to them. He had rather be the object than the author of such a report. The fact, however, was the contrary ; for he believed that they were now suffering from the want of a steady and firm attention to their own interests. The Hon. Member proceeded to read his Resolutions, which were very numerous, offering various observa tions in support, and illustrations of them by the way. So far from wishing any breach of faith with the public creditor, he appeared there as a complainant that faith had not been kept with the public creditor; but that a flagrant violation had been committed— (Hear, hear).—H: hoped, therefore, he should not be aspersed by any such charge. He verily believed that the Legislature, at the time of passing the Act of 1819, was not aware of its consequences. One half, at least, of the original fundholders of 1797 had been annihilated by this Act—an Act which • was called one of retributive justice. Those who had vested since that period their property in manufac tures and teal property, upon a return to cash pay ments found their property considerably depreciated. He set at defiance any imputation against him, that be desired to place the lower class of the people in a worse situation—(Hear, hear).—But he did not hesi tate to say that the interests of all classes, and of course the lower class, demanded a higher money price for all the productions of the country. The agricultural class he particularly spoke cf. That had teen, and was still rapidly declining, and would drag with it all other interests. It was not a diminution of supply that was alone required to create high prices. It never entered into the heads of any but modern philosophers that superabundance could ruin a country. He believed, however, that the extrior dinary industry, the spirit of enterprise, and the un broken spirit of this country, were capable-of restor ing us to peace and prosperity, were it not for this of his Resolutions. _,e thought it, therefore, to leave them to work their own tefutation. If in France they were to argue as he did, that because the monied interest now got three times as many bushels of corn for an ounce of gold as formerly, therefore the landholder ought to be righted, would the Hon. Gentleman assent to that proposition The Hon. Gentleman perceived the alterations caused in the country by the change in the currency, but did not know how to attribute them to their right causes. The alterations were visible, but it was for the Hon: Gentleman to prove that they flowed from the Bill of 1819. He (Mr. Ricardo) believed they proceeded from other causes, operating in this and every other country in Europe. A country, as a country in general, was not hurt by an alteration in currency. It was particular classes that suffered— (Hear, hear). —To whatever welt/ it could be shewn the alteration in the currency increa.ed the value of money, to that estent he would admit was taxation increased—(Hear, hear).—But he never could con sent that this single cause, operating on the taxes, has produced the present situation of the different inte rests of this country. It should be remembered, that the stockholder paid a portion of the taxes, and that it was the payers of taxes that suffered in this point of view from the increased burthen of taxation. As to the state of Ireland proceeding from the cause stated by the Honourable Member, it was to him quite unintelligible. A superabundance of corn and a scarcity of money were things perfectly com patible; but the one could in no way be produced by the other, except that the price of wages were regulated by the price of corn. The depreciation of the currency up to 1809 was only 2 1 ,4 per cent.— The Honourable Gentleman wavered about from one standard to another. in estimating the quantum of de preciation of loss or gain to the country. He went from labour to corn, and then again to the precious metals. The Hon. Gentleman, however, was bound to stick to one or other. But he was at a loss to know Iwhat right he had to take corn as a standard. It never had been taken as such, and never ought. if the Hon. lientleman thought that rents would be an nihilated, as he said, he ought surely to become a supporter of his (Mr. Ricardo s) plan for paying off the National Debt, by giving up a portion only of his land. In that case he would, at all events, have a certain portion of rent ; wheteas without that, ac cording to his own account, he would get none. He maintained that the Hon. Gentleman charged as re. sults upon the Bill of 1819, things which were ac tually the consequences of what had happened before that period. This was not dealing fairly by the case at all. In one of his Resolutions the Hon. Gentle man had made a mistake of no less than 154 mil lions—(Hear, hear, and 4 laugh).—He had stated 11-e amount raised by loan from the sth of January, 1798, to 1816, at 459 millions of money, which be con tended was 154 millions more than was actually raised. The Hon. Gentleman, he believed, had mis taken sums to that amount paid to the Commissioners for the Redemption of the Public Debt. There was a mistake in the calculation of the Hon. Gentleman to the amount of 154 millions. They had been told of unjust gain, but the rise of Stock gave fair advan tages. If the advantage derived from a rise in the market was unjust, what would they say to the French ' fundholder? In France, the Funds commenced at 50, and had risen to 90 ; would any one say that was unjust gain? The proposition for the extension of the currency involved the necessity of changing the standard. They could not extend the circulation without altering the standard. The Hon. Member had charged Gentlemen on his side with stating, that landlords were desirous of getting too high tents.— The fact was, he did not say they took - high rents. He considered rents like commodities, liable to flue tuate, and rise in the market. He was ready to con tend, that superabundance was injurious to the dealer in some articles, because it made a reduction in price. The low value of sugar and cotton was occasioned by superabundance. The alteration of the currency had nothing to do with the question. In the year 1797, a great error was committed by interfering with the currency. Much mischief had arisen from that pe riod. The propositions before the House were so pregnant with danger, that he was obliged, by a sense of duty, to oppose them. Lord MILTON said, the proceedings from 1797 to 1819, had been the cause of all the evils. The public creditor lost more between 1797 and 1814, than he had gained since 1819. Taxes had raised the expenses of the poor. It had been said the Na tional Debt was a mine of wealth. He could not allow that to be the case with respect to the nation at large. It might be a mine of wealth to the mort gagee, but the nation was suffering a loss. His de liberate opinion was, that if ten millions of taxes had been taken off at the commencement of this Session, the farmers and agriculturists would have been saved from. ruin. Taxes were the great evil, and it was idle to suppose any benefit could accrue to the coun try without a reduction of taxation. The Noble Lord took a general view of all the arguments on the sub ject, and contended that there was no remedy, except giving up the Sinking Fund.' The Landed Gentle. men had done no.hing to benefit themselves on this important question. The Noble Lord trusted they would come forward next year with votes instead of promises. With the exception of the motions made, by the Member for Winchelsea, and the Member for York, no measure had been brought forward for the interest of the country. The Noble Lord concluded by declaring be could trot agree to the Resolutions of , his Honourable Friend. Mr. ROBINSON said, that next Session he should move a Ot.mtuittee to fix the maximum of the National Debt. ATT WOOD thought the Resolutions demanded the se rious investigation of the House. Mr. PEEL said, that only a month ago the House had re jected the same motion by a great majority, and was bound in consistency to reject it now. Mr. Alderman IIEYGATE thought the alteration in the currency had a great effect in causing the distress of Ireland. Sir F. BURDETT expressed his concurrence in the last Re solution, the necessity of making inquiry to ascertain whether there were any means of getting out of these difficulties. After a short reply front Mr. WZITSAN, the Gaitery was cleared, but the Resolutions were negatived without a division. Adjourned it a Quarter to Fivetlis morning. . • .. -• • - ..,* te , • . 0 6•:. 4 , • ... . to prevent an fatal &IL Fe should thus leawrthe mailligilebabe RIVEN SATURDAY eniovfi of any Hoe* reitiening, hnwever, that be, had not beela At die ROYAL O ? A fit amity with able to do justice torlits, mei ideas. - The Hoe. Gin- 111191111, its sisseass. *pied on oath, tleman concluded by movistg his first liesolution. In compliance with the ilainst the Go- Mr. ItICARDO said, that , be felt himself quite arotiemen who hay. cirri (hir. Scarlett) incompetent to follow the Hon. Member through all the desire of the Juvenile 131 t with the pro- Amiteements at these Garden his statements, or what he conceived to be the errors scan 4 .„ 81 , bow . t h e 'A m o r for sure was di- of his Resolutions. He thought it, therefore, better power, to Meet the wishes of -117, • . • JUVENILE PETE, NEXT, 13v• JULY, .:RDENS, VAUX li A r.r. IMPICIAL PATILOSAOR Or fall sties. • (Amin, ..., th e request 1,1 many Ladies and (gentlemen who ham expressed a wish, hi order to gratify the desire of the Juvenile Branches of .their Families, that tt, Amusements at these Gardens should, for One Night, tertmoat e at.an emir bow, the Proprietors, simians, as far es limits tk e u r power, to Meet the wishes of all who honour them with th ue company, have determined to Open the Gardens eaves* j,,, the oecasion, on en Extra Night, and to devote that Night to the Accommodation as weil as Amusement of the 'Branches it is , therefore, proposed to *pert the Doors at S ; r . mad the Rope Dancing, Fire-Works, Ascent ou the Rope. a *it other Amusements, to be ALL OVER BY TEN O'r,LOCX. And as the Proprietors feel an anxious desire to see a nuntetnc a Ameniblage of the Young Folks now at home for the blobday s . *ay intend for this Night only to charge aildren under Dodge Years f dge, Tv.' Skillings each ; Other Persons, as usual, 3.. tid. I The Musical Department most, of necessity, be a little etr i % sailed, but the Rope Dancing, Fire-Works. Ascent on the liepe a-la-Saqui, Cosmorama., ilepraplasiesoptrort, and other Amt.._ ments. will be as extensive, and as grand, as on auy prec e . a I Evening. I .* Supper Boxes may be engaged the Day before, or in the Morning. No Orders will be admitted. ler The following Day being Sunday, the Gardens must, c f aecessity, be cleared befote 'twelve &Clock ; it is, there , qe e , respectfully announced, the lamps will be extinguished at past Eleven. N. B. The Gardens will be open on Mond.y, Wednesday, a n d Friday Evenings, as usual. lIE 1.1 ENI \( LONDON. THURSDAY, JULY 11. 1c22. STOCK EXCHANGE, TWELVE O'CLOCK. The same stagnation in the market which has prevailed foe several days still continues, and it items the business it: the Fa reign Loans has a great effect on the Above market. ru,t,,o i 804 and for Au g ust 81111 to *; Reduced 790 80, with h: doing, and the market heavy. FOREIGN Futtou—Most of the business doing in this maeta is in the new Prussian Loan, and an the other foreign sect.rit'es are of minor consideration. New Prussian 86* to *; 0 d Pras. sian Bonds 88 to *; Chill= 79# ; Spanish Old 62/ 65 ; N:w agi I. STOCK EXCITANGE, ONE O'CLoex. The market looks better within the last hour. Consn:s a7e MI. There is nothing doing in the Foreign market. except Prussian Bonds. • PRICES OF STOCKS AT ONE 0 CLOCK. Bk. Stock 243 1 At 244—:s per Ct. Redu. 80 797 s SO:i 3 per Cent. Cons. 79% 14 lh y B -3 1 / 2 per Crnt . per Ct5.97 5 / 8 %-4 per Cent. New Aims. 98 ;I bank Long Annuities 20 5 / 8 11 16 India Stock 245—India Bonds 54 . 565. Etch. Rills (E 1,000) 4s. 6s.—Do. Small ss. 7s. pr. Consols for Acct. 807 s 81. Last night the Corn Bill, which excited so n-. 14.1 interest at the beginning of the Session, and to which the Agriculturist looked to with hope and the Com. mer with fear, was read a third time, in the House of Lords, and passed. The Public, satisfied that the in. jut ious principles of the Bill were neutralised by the inefficiency of its provisions, had long ceased to fal any anxiety about it. Not so, however, some of tie Couttry Gentlemen, who have, by various means, endeavoured to induce Parliament to adopt lorg strings of Resolutions about protecting duties and f. reign importations, which had no other object has that of raising the price of grain to the consumer. Last night Mr. WEszenri brought forward a series of eighteen Resolutions, " descriptive of the distressel state of the Ag; lc:alum! part of the country ; :!.e effects of tke altered state of the currency on the ge. neral amount of taxation ; and the relative situation of the Public Creditor and the Public under snci altered state of the currency." The substance of these Resolutions are to be found in Mr.WEsTEnN's former speech on the currency, except one addition, w!ich seems to attribute the distress and disturbances in Ireland to the alteration in the currency. Bad crops and Ministerial neglect have, of course, had no share in producing or aggravating the famine in Irclathi; it was the return to Cash Payments, that much 2busol measure, that has done it all. Mr. WESTERN WISIICI the House to adopt the first seventeen of his Resat. tions, and then at some future day to have a set de bate about the eighteenth ; Mr. RICARDO and M. PEEL, however, soon exposed their fallacy, and :! . .e whole were got rid of at once. The Caledonian Mercury of Monday contains I new and somewhat kngthy correspondence, arisi: . ; out of that interminable subject, the late fatal due: iy Scotland. In the letter of Mr. HOPE to Mr. .‘131:: , - csomsY, which we inserted in the ST4R of ye3te...2.Jy. Mr. HOPE complains that the friends of Mr. STvAnr , in publishing the report of his trial, had thought sit publish the names of Mr. HOPE and Mr. M.Nc!t!, as air`xed to a document, though these names were not read or mentioned at the trial; and that the nans:s were so printed for the purpose of representing (Mr. Hops), to persons ignorant of Scotch forms, the Counsel in the case, and of affording the aptex' ante of a pretext for intended political attack. HOPE further complains, that 44 A very remarkable passage is emitted, in one of the le:tes from Mr. STUART to Mr. Gszsow, and me appearance mg cf • - • 1 omission is noticed, in the way in which the letter is publW.ei. " . These charges, on the part of Mr. Hors, have d: . t ug forth a letter to Mr. HOPS from Mr. ‘VILLIANI Ms' NETT, W. S. who states himself to have been ctn. ployed to report the proceedings on the trial, anJ to) have superintended its publication. Ile positivt . lY denies that the manner of printing the signatures w. 15 for the purpose alleged ; and says, that the letter Which Mr. Hera complains of an important pabsa,z being omitted, was only an extract, and mat ked such. Mr. flora replies, that his general opinion oo the subject is in no degree altered. In refetence to the letter, he says— " It it was to be punted, it ouglat t• !Ave beat yri..tcil entire