Star. — London, England, 1821-06-21 00:00:00

*lonia:, so much 4,s it would necessitate, perhaps, some relaxation Tn . thehalations which had been adopted abroad, in ,der to eradicate from the minds onlavaztiv; Fridians any jealousy to which such dis ^tnsslons might-give'rise. He did not think that the immediate effect of these discussions would be to fa cilitate in any manner the operations of Government upon this question, and it was with this impression, that when, in a former Session, his Honourable Friend did him the honour to advise with him as to the propriety of bringing this subject under the con sideration of the House, he dissuaded him from do ing so. He was convinced that the information which either then or now . could be laid before the House was defective ; that Government was not in attentive to the subject, but was pursuing an even though temperate course with regard to it. His Ho nourable Friend (the Member for Bramber) in whose mind every object connected with benevolence ever found a ready advocate, had said that the Hindoo laws enacted that all these sacrifices should be volun tary. But was the Government to take it upon itself to judge of every deviation from the law which vi tiated the sacrifice? He would illustrate the case by a custom which had long existed in Europe. It was well known, that in all Roman Catholic countries a custom existed of immuring in nunneries voluntary victims, as they were designated. No doubt, how ever, could be entertained that many of those per sons who were devoted to the cloister had not gone there precisely upon the stipulated conditions. But if this country were legislating as a conqueror for a territory where this practice existed, would she be justified on every occasion of this kind to send an Officer to the gate of the monastery, to examine the victim ; and if she evirced the least symptoms of hesi tation, to tear her away from the altar ?—( Harr). — It might be supposed that the feelings of Indians were not less acute upon a point that concerned their own customs; and it shoold not be forgotten, that by a wise system of policy they were authorized to re tarn all their regulations and religious practices to the fullest extent. The history of mankind shewed no truth more clearly than this, that never was any superStition, however degraded, overturned by force ; and the fouler the superstition was, the less likely was it to be extinguished, when the converter came armed.—( Mar, hear ! J—lt should further be recol lected, that the Mahometan religion was one of con-' . quest—the Christian religion was one of persuasion: the former made its way by the aid of earthly power —the latter grew up and flourished in spite of it.— The example, therefore, of the Mahometan rulers of India was one which a British Government could never consistently follow. It should prefer the meek, Silent, but effectual course, which it had hitherto pursued, looking to time, education, and the pro gress of an enlightened religion, as the best correc tives of superstition and ignorance. —(Hear, hear). Colonel MONEY thought that it would strengthen the handsel Government by putting an end to these aboa:inahle practices in a summary manner; and it was a mistake to suppose they could not be put down by force, as there was an instance on record in which Lord Wellesley, by sending a military force to one part of our Indian dominions, succeeded in putting an effectual stop to the practiceof destroying children. Mr. W. SMITH agreed with the Hon. Member who spoke last, in thinking that these abominable practices might be put down by force. Mr. BUXTON shortly replied. He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite was wrong, when he stated that there were no instances of force being employed to put down superstition. The murder of the Rajpont children was made a capital crime in Lydia. The Cooah also was made capital. This Cooah was in the case of a native having a strong aversion for some person in power ; in which case he would make a large pile of lighted wood, over which he would put two animals, one of which was a cow, had the other an old woman. The suffering of the latter lie would protract as long as he possibly could, under an impression that the object of his resentment was subjected to the same torments. Ever. the sacred person of a Bramin bad been violated, as some had been hung. And, on one occasion, the great god Juggernaut himself, with his car, had been seized upon and kept in pawn, till the payment of some ar rears of revenue were paid. The question was then put, and the Ifopers or dered to be laid oo the table. Mr. WILBERFORCE postponed his motion on the Slave' Trade to Tuesday next. Mr. SCAILLETT intimated a wish that his Honourable Friend (Mr. Ilutchinson) would postpone his motion on the &ate of Europe. PRESENT STATE OF EUROPE. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said, that having already put off the motion he was now about to submit to the house several times, much to his own inconve nience, he felt it impossible to consent to any further postponement. After the speech of the Right Hon. Member for Liverpool that evening, he must acknow ledge that he was not, so to express it, in tune to ad dress the House; but had he the eloquence of that Right Honourable Person, united with the talents of the Honourable Member for Bramber, whose views of the present state of Europe every man must ap plaud, he (Mr. Hutchinson) felt that he would be exerting his powers in a good cause, when applying them to the subject of the present motion; and he also felt that he would be likely to make an impres-' sion on the House equal to the importance of the sub ject, and which lie feared lie was not now in a state to effect. Front the appearance of the Benches, nei ther lie nor the Noble Marquis could calculate upon any very serious discussion. He disavowed all in tention to offend the feelings of any person. His ob ject was to defend the liberty of Europe, which, he was sorry to say, he saw threatened with ruin every where. The state of Europe was at this moment tre mendously awful; but its condition was the result of a system which the Noble Marquis had abetted, and which, if not checked by the moral influence of this country, would be productive of more confusion than was ever yet experienced. He believed that in what lie had submitted to the House upon the state of Eu rope, he had taken a correct view of the policy which the Allied Sovereigns acted upon, and to which the Noble Lord was an efficient party. On a former oc casion, the Noble Lord had stated that the Allies had no views of aggrandizement, and were only anxious for the peace of Europe. He must be of opinion that the Russian corps of 100,000 men had not been put in motion on account of the disturbances in Piedmont. is the remarks he should make, he did not mean to h L' attaci the Monarchs themselves, bnt their Cabinets. He had stated formerly, and he still believed it, that the system of the Noble Lord and the Allies had been directed against the liberties of Europe. The object of the war, as stated by the Noble Lord and his col leagues, from 1792 down to the close of the war, had been to put down tyranny ;• but the peace of 1814 and 1815 had been one of spoliation, as appeared in the case of the Venetians and Genoese, and also in the sacrifices exacted from Saxony. The acts of the Empe rors of Austria and Russia, and the Declaration ac companying them, shewed the principles by which they were actuated. Because the Neapolitans wished for a free Constitution, the Sovereigns of Austria and Russia had interfered to preserve the ancient despot ism. For the last hundred years, Russia had made no peace without adding to her dominions. In one part, her territories extended 9,000 miles, and 4,000 in another. There was not in Europe a more ambi tious Power than Russia, whatever might be alleged by the Noble Lord. Though Great Britain might be no party to the Holy Alliance, yet the whole of the policy of Government at home was in unison with the conduct of the Allies abroad ; that had been shewn by refusing all inquiry into the affair of Manchester, and the recent attack on the Freedom of the Press, by means of what was called " The Constitutional Association." The Alien Bill had had no English object in view, and had been passed twice in time of profound peace, to enable the Noble Lord to be the Head Police Of f icer to the Allied Monarchs. That Bill had passed in order to prevent the victims of fu reign tyranny from approaching the coast of &g -land. The first instance had been that of General Gourgaud, and the last was that of an Italian Priest, from St. Helena, who had been prevented from land ing, and had been sent nobody knows where. The Member for Aberdeen and those who supported him were treated as the Noble Lotd had, on a former night, treated the Carbonari ; but that had been der) , where the fate of Reformers. No man loved liberty more than be; and he had hoped that, at the peace of 1815, the People would have been remunerated for the sacrifices they had made. There was another act of the Noble Lord's still more disgraceful than the Alien Act—he aneant the imprisonment of the late Emperor of France. He believed that Russia had been well disposed to attack Spain, could she have obtained the concurrence of France. The conduct of the Allies towards Naples was even worse than that of Napoleon towards Spain. What object could we have to act the part of jailors for the Monarchs of Russia and Austria? Nothing could be more objec- , tionable than the Declaration from Troppau, and another still more recent. It was impossible to see how liberty could be protected by the imprisonment of Napoleon, when the Allied Powers were acting in a more tyrannical manner than he had ever done. In all their Declarations, the Allied Powers relied on the co-operation of this country, and stated that they would recognize no alterkion in the form of any Go vernment, that did not proceed from the Government itself. At the present moment, Russia was hanging over Greece with a large force, and might endeavour to attain the darling object of her ambition—the pos- session of the Turkish States in Europe. The jails of Sicily were filled with individuals, whose only crime was, that they had obeyed the orders of the estab lished Government. The present state of Spain wai to be ascribed to the unhallod`ed interference of des pots. The Honourable Member then moved, 4 , That this House, the Representatives of a free and en lightened People, has witnessed with the greatest concern and alarm the events which have lately taken place on the Continent of Europe, and also the open and insulting avowal of pretensions as novel as they arc dangerous, and which are in direct opposi tion to the principles of our own Revolution, and to the inde pendence of other Nations: That an humble Address be there fore piesznted to his Majesty, requesting hint to use his influence and authority to secure to the minor States of Europe their un doubted, and, till now, never disputed, right to choose their own form of Government. and also to remonstrate with his Allies on the assumption of powers never before claimed, which introduce new principles into the laws of nations, in direct opposition to all (turner practice and precedent, and which, if petseverecl in and acted upon, would not only prevent the e,tablishment of all rational liberty, but tend to render perpetual devotisms of the worst kind." country to them so designated. The Hon. Gentleman' came too soon with his motion. He should have waited until he would have the necessary documents before him : and it would be necessary for him to collect much more information, and to labour much harder, before he could reasonably expect that hecould influence the House to entertain his proposition. It was natural to expect the Hon. Gentleman would specify the particular acts of the Governments on which his motion was founded. He (the Marquis of Londonderry) was not prepared to follow the Hon. Gentleman in the general and vague course which he pursued. The particular questions to which the Hon. Gentleman alluded were already most amply and ela borately discussed. The question of the Treaty of Vienna, for instance, received the amplest discussion. —The question of Naples had been most elaborately discussed : and so also was the question regarding Bonaparte's confinement in the Island of St. Helena. If the Hon. Gentleman wished to discuss those over again, or had taken any other specific or particular question, he (the Marquis of Londonderry) was pre pared to meet him ; but it was utterly impossible for him to form any opinion on the Hon. Gentleman's proposition—(Hear). Sir ROBERT WILSON supported the motion, complained of the manner in which it had been met by the Noble Lord, and criticised with severity the conduct of the Allies. It was true, as' his Honour able Friend had stated, that the jails of Naples were now filled with unfortunate persons, who were pu nished for acts in which they had been associated with their present King—acts which he (the King) had left them for the purpose of defending before the Allies. He examined the Act of Amnesty, and shewed that notwithstanding that Act, severe punish ments were to be inflicted. In his opinion it was the duty of Parliament to interfere in behalf of neutral States, when their rights were violated by our Allies, and to declare that this country would never enter into any confederacy against their liberties. His Hon. Friend had mentioned the case of a Priest, who had not been permitted to land in this country through the operation of the Alien Act. He could refer to a similar case which had occurred antece dent to that. A man, with his wife and child, ar riving at the Cape of Good Hope from St. Helena, was detained for five weeks, and at last not permit ted to land, but sent off to llolland. lie condemned the principle of that Bill, and gave the present mo tion his cordial support. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON replied. The Honour able Member complained that. the Noble Marquis had insulted him by the taunting reply to which the House had listened. lle felt, however, that he should be this night distinguished from the Noble Lord by every free man in the empire and in Europe. The Allied Powers were pursuing a system of spoliation and aggrandisement, and he called upon the Noble Lord to stand up iu his place to prove the contrary if it was in his power. The 'peace of 1814 was founded upon a system of spoliation and aggrandise. ment, and that system was still in action with the view of substituting tyranny for liberty all over the world. The Noble. Lord had said, that he did not understand his (Mr. Hutchinson's) system. The fact was, that he had no system at all—(Gieers and laugh ter). He repeated that he had recommended no system—he only complained of the system of the Noble Lord. If he was taking measures in the Cabi net to prevent the designs of foreign tyrants, he was ready to give him his thanks. But what he ought to do was to give an assurance to the Public that he was pursuing that line of conduct. If this was not done, he would never cease to bring the subject be l i - fore the House upon every occasion which presented itself. The Noble Lord stated that he was not a party to the Holy Alliance. If he did not take an active part in its operations, he was nevertheless a sleeping partner in the concern. The Hon. Member concluded by expressing his intention to take the sense of the I louse upon his motion.—The House divided— Fur the motion - eg lizainst - 117 Majority against the motion - —B9 The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that he • POOR RELIEF BILL. felt it quite impossible to pronounce any rational opi. Mr. SCARLETT moved the Order of the Day for nion on any part of the Hon. Gentleman's Resolution. the House taking the Report of this Bill into further He had very great respect for the Hon. Gentleman, consideration. and would wish to give any question originating Mr. CALCRAFT rose to protest against this most with him its merited and due consideration ; but the important measure being introduced, at a time when Hon. Gentleman himself must have felt that it was it could not receive its due share of consideration— entirely out of any one's power to come to any par- (Hear, hear).—lt was , quite impossible this Bill could ticular or decisive opinicn on the general v i ews w hi c h pass this Session. Of all measures, this was the most the Hon. Gentleman bad taken of the different States improper to come on when the Mouse was taken up of Europe. The proposition which the lion. Gentl- with anything else. However, if the lion. Member man had submitted to the Hou s e was of so unlimited was determined to press this measure, and that it was the feeling of the House that it should come on at this and general a nature, that it wa s utterly impos , rible for the House to form any opinion on it. The lion. time, he of course would not oppose it. He put it, i Gentleman said that he (the Marquis of Londonderry) however, to the good sense of the Honourable Mem was a party to the politics a n d proceedings of the ber, whether he ought great Continental Powers, which to him appeared so the House at this time?to press such a measure upon ' very pernicious, but which he (the Marquis of Lon- Mr. SCARLETT declared, that lie was entirely donderry) saw in a very different light ; and he was at the mercy of the House, and that he should regu bold to say that he was as great a friend to sound late his conduct by whatever rules the House were and rational liberty as the Hon. Gentleman, or any pleased to lay down for him—(Cries of Go on! to other Hon. Gentleman in the House or in the coun- gether with cries of No, no!). try—(Hear, hear).—But entertaining the strongest Mr.o ALC R AFT wished to understand what course attachment to liberty, as lie did, he would not by any the House would wish should be adorted—(Mixed means be persuaded to interfere with the liberty of cries of Go on ! No, no!). other nations. They had no right to meddle or inter- The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was afraid too pose with the affairs of other nations, which they much valuable time was lost in deciding upon what could not comprehend. This country, burthened as course ought to be taken. If his opinion was asked, it was—(Hear, hear)—in consequence of the glorious he would say, that though he was sure the Bill would struggles it had made, while combating for its rode- not pass this Session, yet he did not think the time pendence—and even for its existence, was not to be unseasonable for discussing it—(Hear, hear). persuaded to travel about with the spirit of knight- Mr. CALCRAFT, perceiving the fixed determina errantry in quest of adventures after those struggles tion of the House to persevere, regretted that the were over, the beneficial effects of which would be House had come to that resolution. His opinions of entirely lost to the country, if it were brought to this Bill were not at all changed : he would not pass interfere in the questions that might arise in the dif- it at any time, and least of all other at the present. 1 ferent States of Europe—(Hear).—The Hon. Gen- Something was necessary in the shape of relief; but ; tleman thought proper to protest against the system it did not follow that the House ought hastily to adopt of Government carried on for the last thirty years, a measure which they did not think useful to the coun- Iboth at home and abroad ; but he (the Marquis of try. He would examine each of the propositions in Londonderry) should be permitted to protest against the Bill, and shew that the grounds upon which it I the system recommended by the Hon. Gentleman, went were fallacious. To begin, then, he asserted and would enter protest against protest—(4 laugh). that the inconveniencies of the Foots' Rates were —He did not think it necessary to occupy the time I greatly over-rated. There were some inconveniences of the House on the subject at any length, and should iin them, it was true ; but they were not ascriba be satisfied to leave the proposition to whatever vote : ble to the causes marked out by this Bill The re the House should come to. He was not able to cons- medy held out by the Bill was imperfect, and could . prebend the meaning of the Hon. Gentleman's de- not be persevered in. He (Mr. Calcraft) being a scription of the minor Powers; and he finally be- friend to the Poor Laws, was, of course, friendly i lieved they would be insulted by such a designation , ito a compulsory levy of rates to sustain them. This and would disdain any assistance proffered , by this! Bill would cut up this, by not suffering it to be in- creased as circumstances required, but limited it to a maximum, declaring, that whatever the rates were all over the kingdom in the month of March it e. they should never be increased. Yet the Ilotroarrb Member himself found it necessary to make s, modification in this law in favour of certain tow and these exceptions, he contended, clearly she .. e : a want of confidence by the Honourable 3lenth e i; his own Bill. If the maximum was good, why re i r it at all ? But the Honourable Member, after same deliberation, found it absolutely necessary to rel a y The next proposition was, that no nor who was ,thk,* to work should receive parochial relief.--Nr.Se mt , LETT said that was not exactly his propositio n . T,,, e object of his Bill was to prevent improvident m ar . riages.:l—Mr. Calcraft contended that the pmpo s i t i mi in effect amounted to what he had stated. Nothini could be more unfeeling than this, when it wa s 0; 7, sidered that, in the space of a week, caprice, th e change of fashions, or other trifling occurrences, might throw the working people of a whole ma nn . factoring district out of employment. —(Hear, heal. —When such an event did happen, if all parochi a l relief was denied, there could but two conseluentes follow—either universal starvation or universal co n . fusion.—(Hcar, hear).—Then another proprtition ;sn to do away the Law of Settlement altogether, so tha when .a number of people got together in a lar ae . town, no matter whether the work was constant et not, there they were to remain and starve. A o d i t was not true, as the Honourable and Learned llem. ber stated, that these towns were enriched by Cie s. bour of these people, the produce of their la, , was not confined to these toss ns, but extended to .:re whole country. The rrofits of those manufacturer. at Birmingham and Manchester were not felt he these towns alone, but by the whole kingdom. P.tit in this proposition too a considerable modificution had been made, which shewed the Movet.'s •,‘,lllt Ci confidence in his Bill. Again, it was said that the Poor Laws tended to destroy the morals and th e energies of the people of this country. This be (Mr. Calcraft) strongly denied, and he challenge' a comparison of the state of morality amongst the poor in this country at. the present .time with any other period of our history, or with the morals oldie people of any other country in Eurore. The gee propagation of Bibles through the country wars proof of the dissemination of useful k ehwledge.— There was no want of energy in the people, or of is dustry, for the people of England, take them ail in all, were the most industrious, most ener g etic, and bravest people in the world. Of course to this, as tr all general rules, there were many ezcoptions, but the present Bill was inapplicable to their r.:lnedy, Then it was said .that the Settlement Law presented a free circulation of labour, but he asked, did asy instance occur of a want of hands when there was capital to be employed ? The Settlement Law wan certainly productive of much litigation; but that in• convenience, too, had been exaggerated. With re gard to relief being indiscriminately administered, he could only say, that if the Civil Magistrate sasia all active, and that the provisions of the present lase were attended to, this could not happen in any caw. It was also said, that the facility of procuring relief was an inducement to improvident ruturiages. This he admitted in some respects; but it appeared to him that there were other causes operating to pro duce an increase of population. The high demand, for instance, in which men were during the war, the bounties paid the soldier, and the wages paid the ma nufacturer, made these feel that they could embark in matrimony with less peril. This was a bad time to make an experiment upon the distresses of the poor.— Provisions, to be sure, were cheap, and perhaps that was the only thing that favoured it; but it should not be forgotten that the price of labour was reduced much more in proportion. And talking of the great extent of Poors' Rates, it seemed to be forgotten, that a great part of these rates were the wages of labour. There were few parishes in which the labour of the public incumbents did not in some measure give an equivalent for the relief which was extended to them. Besides all these, the rates had been increased by the increase in the taxes. Take, then, the rise in the taxes, the National Debt, and rental of the country for the last 50 years, it would be found that the in crease in the Poors Rates had not kept pace with these—(Hear, hear). But the greatest error which he discovered in the Bill of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was the omission, altogether, of the funded property, as a source of wealth which ought to bear its share of the burthens of the poor—(Hear, hear). There was no law or reason why this species of pro perty, like land, should not be saddled with Poors Rates, and considering that it was that branch of the public wealth which had been most profited by the increase of trade in this kingdom, it was in conceivable how people could be so blind as to let it escape for so long a time—(Hear, hear, hear). — The Judges had declared that it was, like any other species of property, subject to Poors' Rates, but that, in the levying, difficulties would arise, which, under the present system, could not be got over.— The principle being thus granted, would it not be more wise, more charitable, and more praiseworthy in the Honourable Member, to facilitate the collec tion of these rates from the fundholder by some Le gislative measure, than to introduce impracticable and inapt remedies—when, too, justice required that every species of property should be alike taxed to support the poort?—(Hear, hear)— The Honourable Member then referred to some parishes where there rates were said to exhibit themselves in the wort light ; but he shewed :hat the mischief of them was greatly exaggerated. In a parish in his own neigh bourhood, the rates had been reduced from Ellago £l5OO ; and there being more discrimination in tte choice of objects, practised by the Overseers, the pCCt were still comfortably off. He also argued that there was a feeling amongst the poor themselves to make some provision for the day of want, by Benefit and other Societies, rather than have recourse to the pa• rish. It was not true that the poor calculated upon the parish support as the stay of their infirm or da. cayed ae. He then stated, that in the town of L't; tester, £17,000 had been collected for the poor , which £9806 was furnished by the mechanics of the town, who were, in fact, the poor themselves. fart of itself would upset the principle of this 11 ."0 which assumed that the poor of themselves had 1. 0 exertion. He would, however, vote for the preFo' >ition that no relief ought to be given to those wino could work—(hear, hear).—lle w as cenfident th . Bill would not pass this Sesiott, and, speakis, tried tend Pool ian but 1 fordl culti %vac M Am( from Td *hot grid. iihr at the