Star. — London, England, 1821-05-19 00:00:00

?~""'" PARLIA V ENTA R 1 PROCEEDINGS. lIOUSE ifF I.OUDS, MAY 18. Mr. laving, from the Custom-House, presented an Account Of the quantities of Raw and Spun Silk imported into this coun try duel g the List twenty-one years, pursuant to an order of the House. The Irish B inkrupt Laws Amendment Bill, the Scotch Court of Sessions Bill, and the Scotch Court of Admiralty Bill, were torch read dr, third time add pas:AA. • The Earl of DA RNLEY complained that certain Accounts relating to the expenses of the Household of the Lord Lieute nant of Ireland, which were ordered some time since on his mo tion, had out yet li. en presented. The Earl of LI VEll ['(JUL said, that orders had been given to that effect, and the !Papers might be expected immediately. Tue Earl of DA R N LEY gave notice that he would submit a motion on the 4th of June, respecting the money paid for sta tioaery in Ireland ; and observed,-that on the same day it was his.intortion to make a proposition relative to the expenditure of the country, unless prevented by the interference of some other Noble Lord. His first motion would probably not take up much time, and therefore he would name the same day for both. The Earl of LAUDER DALE, seeing the Noble Lord in his place who was about to move the second reading of the TiMber Duties bill, suggested that the debate should be taken on the question lir going into Committee. Earl BATHURST having acquiesced, the Bill was read the second time, and the debate visa postponed upon that under- • standing. The Irish Jail Fees Abolition Bill, the Irish Courts Regula tion Bill, and the Irish Privately Stealing in Shops Bill, went through the Committees with seine verbal altetations.—Ad journed till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. DEN ISON presented a Petition from twenty-six out of the thirty-two Governors of the I'oor of the Parish of St. Mary, Newington, against the Newington Select Vestry Bill.—Laid on the table. Lord A. HAMILTON presented a Petition from the Inha bitants of the Royal Burgh of Perth, comptainiug of the state of the Representation of the Borough, and praying the House to take the case into its scrams consideration.-Laid on the table, and ordered to hr printed. Sir E. HARVEY presented a variety of Petitions from the Sliddls•sex and Eris Trust, Romford, East Ham, Chigwell, Woodford, tice. and Sir W. CtiliTiS Petitions from Hampstead, Islington, Ilolloway, Camden TOWN &c. against the Metropolis I Road lial.—Ordered to be printed. Sir R. W I LSON presented a Petition from Edward Jones, one of the .106 Petitioners for the Newington Select Vestry Bill, complaining that hv had been misinformed as to the object of that Bill, and praying that it might not pass into a law. The gallant Officer aho presented a Petition front the Inhabitants of St. John's, Southwark, against the Bill. Lord A. HAMILTON resented a second Petition against the Burgh system. After a few observations from Mr. MacKenzie, Mr. J. P. GRANT, and the Loan Avvocrert, the Petition was ordered to be printed. On the motion of the Hon. G. Batmerr, a Return was or dered of the Members of the house cl Commons who hold offices under the Cry,-ap.to the Ist instant. SCOTCH JURY BILL. • Mr. MACKENZIE presented a Petition from the County of Ross, against the Scotch Jury Bill. Sir R. FERGUSON conceived that this opposition to the Bill arose floor an intimation from the higher powers. A more necessary law had never been brought iuto Parliament. Mr. MACKENZIE denied the justice of the gal lant General's observations. Lord A. HAMILTON concurred with his gallant Friend in believing that the opposition to this Bill had originated in authority, as a circular letter had been written by the Lord Advocate to the Scotch Counties in hostility to the Bill, from which letter be read several extracts, and contended that it unjustly represented that the Gentlemen of the various Coun ties would be subjected by the Bill to increased bur dens. The Noble Lord concluded by warmly eulo gising the Bill in question, which was calculated to further the ends of substantial justice. The LORD ADVOCATE defended his conduct. He contended that he should have been guilty of a gross dereliction of his duty if he had not communi cated to the various Counties of Scotland the Bill in question, and pointed out the probable inconveniences which it threatened. The fact was, that the Counties of Scotland were unanimous against the Bill. Lord A. HAMILTON explained. Mr. ABERCRO.MBIE, although he did not charge the Learned Lord with having done wrong, yet maintained, that if his object had been to obtain the fair and impartial opinion of the persons most inte rested in the Bill, he would not have written that letter. In proof of this position, the Honourable and Learned Gentleman adverted particularly to a pas sage in the Learned Lord's letter, iu which he de clared that his own mind was made up on the sub ject. It was a joke to deny that the whole influence of Government had, by that letter, been used against the Bill; for the Sheriffs of the Counties, to whom it had been addressed, were not, as in England, an nually chosen, but permanent, and looked for prefer ment to Government. The Emperor Alexander could not have issued a more despotic act than the Lord 4d eocate had done. It was, however; his intention to pro pose that the further consideration of the Bill should be postponed to next Session, by which time the pre judices which had been so artfully raised against it would, he trusted, subside. Th../ Honourable and Learned Gentleman then entered into a justification of the principles of the Bill, and ridicule,{ the objec tions which the Lord Advocate had urged against it. After a Bill had been passed giving to Scotland a Jury in civil causes, nothing could be more futile than the opposition to the extension of that Bill to criminal causes. Mr. %V. DUNDAS defended the conduct of his Learned Friend, and maintained that there was but one opinion in Scotland against the proposed mea sure—(Hear, hear). Mr. J. P. GRANT expressed his disapprobation of the course which had been pursued by the Learned Lord. He did nor think so,ill of his countrymen as to believe there would be any opposition to the Bill when it was thoroughly understood. The more con sideration the measure received, the more correct its principle would appear, and he therefore thoroughly approved of the proposed delay. He was persuaded also that the English Members of the Government and the English Magistrates would eventually give the Bill its support : —The Petition was then received, and ordered to be printed. Captain WEMYSS presented a Petition from Fife against the Scotch Jury Courts Amendment Bill. Sir RONALD FERGUSON repeated his former observations on these Petitions, and their origin. He regretted to see this Petition ; it came from the county of which he was a native, and it gave him a lows, opinion of the understanding of his countrymen than he had before. The LORD ADVOCATE again repeated his ob jections to the Bill; which, however, he should have eased over with the silence, and almost with the i contempt-it deserved, had he not perceived that this formed a link of the system which was intended to overturn and alter the whole law of Scotland. It was sufficient for him to declare, that, in his opinion, the Criminal Law ought no: to be changed. Mr. DENMAN thought the Scotch Judges them selves must be anxious to have the present Bill adopted, as by it they would be relieved from that weighty responsibility which at present rested on them—namely, of selecting the Jury which was after wards to decide on the life or liberty of the indivi dual they were to try. He hoped this Bill would not be abandoned ; but that his Honourable Friend would bring the Bill forward again at a very early period of the next Session. Lord BINNING defended the law of Scotland as it at present stood. 'fire prisoner, in Scotland, had great advantages.' He had Counsel, he had a list of the witnesses, a description of the charges, and a full assize of the Jury, fifteen days before his trial came'on, to whom he might make any objections he had to propose. The Noble Lord observed, he trusted the House would not, by statements made by English lawyers, be induced to sanction a change in the Scotch law, which the people of Scotland con sidered as a rash innovation. Mr. ABERCROMBIE repeated his arguments in favour of the 13i11—The Petition was then received. The LORD ADVOCATE then presented a Peti tion from the Freeholders, Justices, and Commis sioners of Supply of the County of Stirling, against the Scotch Jury Bill; and similar Petitions from Ar gyle, Roxburgh, Berwick, and Kincardine, which were received, and ordered to be printed. NEWINGTON SELECT VESTRY BILL. Mr. H. SUMNER moved the Order of the Day for resuming the adjourned debate on the above Bill. The SPEAKER read the motion," That the present Committee be discharged froth further attendance." Mr. BANK ES expressed a hope that his Honour able Friend would withdraw this Motion, which must operate as a censure, to a certain degree, on the pre sent Committee, which be hoped would meet again, and proceed to discuss the merits of the Bill with good humour. In that hope, he would move as an Amendment, " that the Committee be revived." Mr. H. SUMNEIt said, if Gentlemen would under take to go cheerfully into the investigation of the merits or demerits of this Bill, he would not oppose the proposed Amendment. Mr. DENISON said, he had no objection whatever to proceed as his Honourable Colleague had inti mated. He was convinced his friends around him could have no other object—(clear, hear.) The Amendment was then agreed to. The Com mittee revived, with leave to sit on Monday, and re port on or before Monday fortnight. METROPOLIS ROAD BILL. Mr. BYNG presented Petitions from Stoke New ington, from Tottenham, from Highgate, from Step ney, from Isleworth, from Bow, from Bromley, and from a number of other places in the vicinity of the Metropolis, against the Metropolis Koad,Bill. Alderman WOOD presented similar Petitions from Acton, Kentish Town, &c. Mr. WESTERN presented a Petition on the same subject from South Weald. CORN AVERAGE BILL. Mr. HUTCHINSON presented a Petition from Cork, in favour of the Corn Average Bill. Mr. CALCRAFT gave notice of his intention of moving that Ireland should be struck out of the Bill. Mr. D. BROWNE said, such a proposition would be a great injustice to Ireland, and he would caution the House to be careful, that, by persisting in such propositions as these, they did not destroy the union between the two countries altogether. Mr. HUTCHINSON was obliged to his Honour able Friend (Mr. Calcraft) for the candid intimation he had given of his intended motion, and he would now with equal candour assure him, that whenever he submitted his motion, he would give it all the op position in his power. MANCHESTER MEETING. froth the House being overloaded with Imaittess, be could not name a day. Sir J. NEWPORT said, that it was the fault af the Government th.t. the House was overloaded with bu siness. This Bill was, in fact, one of taxation. Lord MILTON hoped that the Learned Gentle man would look at the Bill, as new clauses had been added, and a schedule: above thirty clauses bad been added to the Bill. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved that the balances in the Exchequer, and the Unclaimed Dividends, excepting £1,000,000, be ap plied to the public service. Mr. GRENFELL wished that the other balances in the hands of the Bank should be applied to the public service; that balance amounted to £4,000,000, and a saving might be made of £lOO,OOO a-year. - Mr. MARTIN wished that a list of the Unclaimed Dividends should be published, as seven years had elapsed since the publication of any list. Mr. BARING said, that a compensation had been made by the Bank for the advantages they were to enjoy; and among them was, that the Bank should be the banker of Government, and should hold the balances in question. He hoped the House would not listen to repeated misrepresentations and mistate ments, but would do equal justice to the Bank as to any other Corporation whose interests were at stake. Mr. GRENFELL had thrown no imputation on the Bank of England. The same arguments had been urged when the balance had been £11,000,000, and not £4,000,000. It was competent for the House to reduce the balances to what they chose. It was enough to leave £1,000,000 in the hands of the Bank, and the rest of the balances might be applied to the purchase of Exchequer Bills. Mr. BARING thought that would be an act of great injustice to the Bank, after the agreement that had been made at the renewal of their Charter. It would expose the Government to much inconvenience, if it had not a large balance in the hands of the Bank. Mr. HUME said, that since 1796 the Bank had divided £26,000,000 among themselves, being seven per cent. interest. There had been no engagement on the part of Government that the Bank should keep any stipulated sum in their hands. Mr. cALcRAFT said, a great sum was allowed to the Bank for transacting the business of the Go vernment. That allowance was £270,000 a-year. He thought a million would be a liberal sum to leave in their hands. The present sum was too much.—The Resolution was then carried. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved that a certain issue of Exchequer Bills should take place for Public Works and Fisheries in Ireland. Sir J. NEWPORT complained that the object of Government had been defeated in Ireland from the conduct of the Commissioners. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER de fended the conduct of the Commissioners. Sir J. NEWPORT had made no attack on the cha racter of the Commissioners; he had only imputed an error of judgment, and that they should have stated the reasons of their conduct. Mr. BARING thought a more explicit statement should have been made; £150,000 had been issued, and he wished to know if the remaining £3.50,000 was still at the disposal of the Commissioners? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not tell till he had referred to the Act. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT presented a Petition from Richard Stodart, of Dean's End, Staffordshire, stating, that the Petitioner was in the habit of going to Manchester to sell his wares, and did so on the 16th of August, 1819, and having done so early in the morning, he had retired to his Inn, where, when at Manchester, he regularly put up. He was there at five in the afternoon, when a party of the Police came to the house, and ordered all the guests present to turn out. The people of the house and the Peti tioner represented to them that he was not a promis cuous guest, but that he resided in that house when in Manchester. His representation was disregarded ; and he, still expressing unwillingness to go out, one of the Yeomanry struck him, and inflicted a serious wound on the head of the Petitioner, by which his brain was injured, and he had since been incapable of attending to his business, and all his prospects in life were destroyed ; and that himself and family have, from that period, been supported by parochial aid, and the bounty of some friends. Petitioner went on to state, that his poverty prevented him from seek ing redress in a Court of Law, and therefore he prayed an inquiry by that He use into this and the other hor rible transactions which took place at Manchester on the 16th of August.—Ti►e Petition being brought up, Sir' F. BURDETT entered into some explanation ' of what had been said by the Attorney-General re specting Mr. Charles Pearson having been saddled with costs by the Court of King's Bench, in proceed ings instituted by him against some Magistrates of Lancashire. Mr. DENMAN said he felt bound to state that Mr. Pearson had acted on his advice in the case in question; and if any blame attached to those pro ceedings, the blame attached to him. It had also been represented that he (Mr. Denman) 'had stated the Manchester Meeting to be a legal Meeting. He had done no such thing. He had come to no opinion on the subject. He believed that, as regarded many who attended the Meeting, it might be a legal assem bly, though the motives of those who called it might have rendered it an illegal Meeting. The Petition was ordered to he printed. WAYS A.Np MEANS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE9IJEII shoved, that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of Ways and Means, which was agreed to. Mr. HUNIE wished to learn when the Spoiled Stamps Bill would come on, as lie wished to propose , some alterations on the allowance to distributors? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCKEWER sail, an Amendment—gg That it be an instruction to th e Committee, that, duly taking into censideration circumstances of the country, they .huuld proceed to enforce the most rigid system of economy, as far as the same can be held without dett iment to the sub. stantial interests of the State." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sa id , no one denied the Hon. Gentleman's general prop * , sition : they only denied that the Estimates were ea . travagant—(Hear, hear! from the Oppositioo. Mr. MABERLEY said, that it wits trifling with the country to talk of economy with an ezpenditure of 17 millions. By next year no man could hope to draw from his lands within 50 per cent. of what he drew then. A saving, by economy, might be made to the amount of four millions. Economy, to h e effectual, should take place at the head of the State. He hoped that Ministers, and even his Majesty him. self, would shew an example of economy. In 1792 Mr. Pitt laid down a solid system of retrenchment; and if the Hon. Gentleman would take Mr. Pitt as his model, he would do well. The utmost revenue in the time of Mr. Pitt was sixteen millions, out of which nine was paid to the Public Creditor. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that the preliminary discussion only gave opportunity foe making large and loose assertions. Of the 17 mil. lions, stated by the Hon. Gentleman, five had nothing to do with the question, and the real expense was 12 millions. But could the Hon. Member take four out of the 12 millions, and then say that the tom try could be governed at an expenditure of o n l y eight millions ?—Mr. MABERLEY explained. CALCRAFT said, that the statement of hi s Hon. Friend had never been refuted. Though a number of reductions had been moved not one of them had been carried. Resolutions of this kind could not too often precede a Committee of Supply. Did not the result of the last three millions of the new taxes shew the state of the country, and that the present expeusive establishment could not be sup. ported ? The larger were the sums that could not be reduced, the more prying should the House be into those sums that could be reduced. The preset Ministers were attached to a Military Government. In the Department of the Ordnance a considerable reduction might be made. There was a Resolution for economy on the Journals, and that Resolution had been followed by an increased expenditure in all the branches of the Government. Mr. HUSKISSON said, that ere langmve of the Hon. Member was that of all minorities. But the [lon. Gentleman had sometimes voted with the ma jority, and had more frequently voted neither with majority nor minority. The House was then about to go into the Ordnance Estimates, which had nothing to do with the Civil List, or collection of the Revenue. The Estimates of the present year were a million and a half less than those of the former year. Mr. CALCRAFr had voted for the salary of the Commander-in-Chief, but in future he should be more cautious how he left his. friends. Lord MILTON would certainly vote for the Re. solution of the Honourable Gentleman, though he should not expect much benefit from it. Though the Honourable Gentleman might feel this Resolution, if placed on the Journals, imperative upon him, yet he would not, he was afraid, find it equally effi cient upon the Government. lithe Honourable Mem ber wished to know why such a system of expendi _ leli Mr. GRENFELL said that the Irish Commis- ture was kept up, he had only to 100 - k tohis left, and sioners had governed themselves- by the same rules to the benches immediately near him—(Hear, hear). as the English Commissioners. The number of official Gentlemen on these benches Mr. S. RICE said, that from the conduct of the fully accounted for that expenditure. • It was said Commissioners no benefit had accrued to Ireland. that a revolution might be apprehended, if some re- The case of Ireland and England was wholly dif- lief was not given to the country. Revolution was ferent. He would satisfy the Chancellor of the Ex- a vague term, but he believed that a kind of resolve chequer that the rules laid down by the Commis- tion was now going on in the country—he meant a sioners would not apply to Ireland. The capital of revolution in property—Wear, hear).—lf things went Ireland was land, and the Commissioners would not on as they were now going on, there would soon be take that as a security for the required loans. He an end to the substan tial - yeomen of the country — trusted the Chancellor of the Exchequer would look (Hear, hear)—and there would be nothing in a short into the subject minutely, time but very rich men and very poor men—(Hear, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, hear).—He personally respected several of his Ma lt had been the invariable policy of Government not jesty's Ministers, but he believed they were not aware to interfere with the Commissioners. of the real state of the country, otherwise they wadi BUDGET. not continue in their present system of expenditure. On a vote of £500,000 on the advance of the Bank Mr. HUME said, that nothing was so common a of Ireland, Mr. BAKING wished to know when the to discuss the expenditure of the country before the Chancellor of the Exchequer would make his general Speaker had left the Chair. He thought the Cif statement of the finances of the year? List most extravagant, as £BOO,OOO now was equate The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, £1,400,000 when the Civil List had been voted. The he should be glad to answer that question, but it de- expense of the Tower of London was £20,000 more pended on the progress of the Supplies. Before they now than it had been in 1808, in the midst of the were voted, the lion. Gentleman was aware it was war. There had certainly been no economy in the neither usual nor proper to make any general state- Ordnance Department.—The House then divided: ment of finance.—The Resolution was agreed to, the For the Amendment - - - 40 House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be Against it . 65 received on Monday. Majority - - - - —25 ESTIVATE/I. SUPPLY. The C H ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERmoved The House don went into a Committee of Supply the Order of the Day for a Committee of Supply. The first vote was £14,631 for the salary and pay d On the question that the Sea/teen do leave the Chair, O ffi cers and Clerks of the Ordnance on foreign stances Mr. CHETWYND said, at a period like the pre- Mr. HUME said, that the expense had been to sent, when so much distress prevailed, when so many much increased, that it ought to be reduced. S ipa manufacturing towns were on the verge of insolvency, 1818, four Clerks had been added to the Establish• and when so many taxes were so patiently borne, the ment at Malta. At Barbadoes, Ceylon, and the lonia People of England were looking with anxious eyes Islands, great reductions might be made; £238 vs to those.who represented them in the Great Council char g ed for a Storekee p er at Heligoland, acid his* of the Nation. They had crowded the table with duty was to take charge of the powder for the m Petitions, with the strongest prayers, in the most ing and evenin g g uns. The ex p ense of that island courteous language. In the discussion of the Army was £lO,OOO, much more than the fee-simple of St. and Navy Estimates, great efforts had been made to For the l ast six months this Storekee p er had bea t effect reduction, but they had failed—(Hear, hear). this countr y . H e should move for a reductioa a Those exertions had, however, done much practical twenty-five per cent. or one-fourth upon the sum pro' good; they had the effect of clearly exposing to view a posed to be voted. system of extravagance of which he, for one, had no Mr. WARD opposed the Amendment, and stated' idea, and which had induced many well-thinking that in the places alluded to, an increase of cler o persons to ray, that if the House did net reform it- be had been caused by the increase of the Establishment. At Malta, there were 600 pieces of cannons self within, a Revolution must take place without.— He believed that the first would be the case, for he fortifications extended fifty miles. That was the cue would prophecy that no War Minister would next of the large Establishment at that place. year briag down such Estimates as those of the pre- Mr. H. G. BENNETT said, the system of co! sent year: —if he did, he would be addressed in the pensation must have originated with one devii . l another. The Magistrates of Middlesex found sr.g .. language his Majesty used when he saw the head of Charles the First in the vault at Windsor—ss Take it there was an uncommon number of bad f awns 'to tug the prisoners in Cold Bath-fields. Inquiry away ! take it away ! it is too horrid to contemplate." and t i 0 made, an d t was f oun d that a clerk in a Public tiP He hoped nothing would induce the Hon. Gentlemen encoh .. ~ lice was in the habit of giving orders to these p opposite him to relax itetheir exertions for ecooomy.cair He for one would temain by them till Christmas to and when it was put an end to, he (the clerk) . _ oppose one shilling being voted beyond what was for a compensation ; and, in doing so, be mightbs7 absolutely necessary. The distress of the country was quoted the example of the Ordnance. There e ; unity Placemen in the division on the last dehateet such, that if relief was not given, the yeomanry must be annihilated, and it could not but excite the utmwt i this quettion, who only came down to the llou . ° disgust that under such eircanist•intes cxtritv4 , 2 , 4 „ t i vote against Taxes which bole hard on them.eic2: eftablishmeuts should be I,etsiaLed M. tic moved as .tlicir tt:tillt.S. He shotild Mit Vets for d12.21.Pe1"3 I .~~