Star. — London, England, 1823-06-10 00:00:00

I nopoly. Still, if they did not repeal those laws, the ultimate consequence must be, that they would s the manufacturer labouting under, such difficulty as might bring inevitable distress on the metropolis,.-. The. Petitioners did not object to the use of matihi miff. The reason why machinery had not been in troduced, was because the wages continued the same. Were they now to determine the wages in every trade, it could not-fail to bring the country into great dif ficulty: After having proceeded so far with the Pill, he must Oka to the Committee up stairs. . Mr. ELLICE supported the motion for inquiry. The labourer of Spitalfields conceived his interests to be affected by the proposed pill, and whether he was right or wrong in this conception, ;be assertion of it was sufficient to call for inquiry. He (Mr. Ellice) was, however, no advocate fur these restrictions upon trade generally . colonel WOOD spoke in favour of the Amend. meat. • He bore testimony to the orderly and good conduct of the men in the militia regiment under his command, who were principally engaged in the Spi talfields trade. Mr. P. MOORI said that this Bill had been hur ried so much, that he had not had time to look at the evidence. In his (Mr. Moore's) Pill, which he contended would relieve the country from all its dif ficulties —(4 laugh), the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Huskisson) recommended deliberation to him. He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman himself would de liberate before he attempted to pass this Bill into a law. The Petitioners in favonr of it were mere un dertakers, men who wished to patch up their fallen fortunes at the expense of the Public. The advan tage of the existing regulations was clear from this, that for the last twenty years not one weaver in Spi talfields had occasion to appeal to the poor rates for relief. Magistrates were fully competent to regulate the wages. There was no such di fficoltyin ;he matter as the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Huskisson) supposed. Far the last thirty-four years there were only two crestious of difference between the masters and jour.. ney men referred to a Magistrate. Something should be done to shew the Petitioners that there.was no disposition to trample ott them; he would therefore recommend to have the matter referred to a Corn. mittee up stalls. Mr. T. WILSON .said lie believed the repeal of these regulations would be ultimately beneficial to the parties themselves. At the same time, after the ar guments theyhad heard at the bar, he thought it might be advisable .to grant the Committee. He had no doubt that every branch of trade would go on best when left perfectly free. He knew many of the Pe titioners in favour of the sill to be of the highest re. spectability, and in point of fortune, whatever the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.P. Moore) might have heard to the contrary, he (Mr. Wilsoo) wished he was on a par with them. He believed tiwir only object was to the means of giving full employment to their capital in Spitaltields, without being under.the neces sity of sending to other places to have certain articles mrnufactured. ' Mr. HUME said that no case had been made out at the bar. The principles of the Bill were generally admitted, and he saw no reason why they should not . be acted upon. The House ought not to attempt great reforms at once, but proceed by degrees, by which they would avoid doing injury to a great num ber of people. He thought his lion. Friend the Mem ber for Coventry, Wrong in both his positions; and after him came another Hon. Member, who said that those who were formerly against the repeal of those Acts were pow in favour of that measure. It appeared to him (Mr. Hume) that this change of opinion, added to the arguments used at the bar, and now repeated, were unanswerable in favour of the MU. The master kanafacturers, with very few exceptions, had cicti • tioned in favour of the Bill, twit therefore it would be only a waste of time to go into the Committee. — With vegard to what had been said respecting the poor rates in Spitalfields, it was proved by die Re port before the House, that the majority of the people seeking parochial relief in that district were weavers. Indeed, - if it could be proved that one manufacturer who had been in the habit of employing 15Q men, and paid to them 5,0001, per annum, did not row pay 51. he thought it veal utterly impossible but that those persons who had ceased to be em ployed must have felt the press4re of the times, and been compelled to apply for parochial relict, and that lie thought formed an argument rather in favour of than in opposi:ion to the Bill. Ie wa* quite aware that it was desirable that a measure like that before the House should be carried with the consent of all parties. The Bill was founded upon what he deemed immutable principles, and he should therefore give to it his most cordial support. Mr. BRIGHT said, the measure was one of ex treme importanie—the parties interested in it being no fewer than 50,000 men, residing in London, and the whole population of Coventry and Macclesfield, for which reason alone he thought a Committee ought to be granted. The excess of poor-rates in Spital fields did not arise from the applications of weavers only, but from bricklayers, carpenters, shoemakers, and other mechanics residing in that district, who had felt the pressure of the times. He felt extreme surprise at the opposition given to the appointment of a Committee by his Honourable Friend the Member for Aberdeen—he who, during his whole life, had been an advocate for inquiry. The Hon. Member then referred to the disturbed state of Spitalfields be fore the Act of the 13th Geo. 111. was passed, con tending that similar outrages might be apprehended were that Act now repealed. The Honourable Gen tleman also read an extract from the Report, proving that the parties who had been most distressed in Spi talfields were not weaverso He would contend, that there was not a more orderly or a more respectable class of • working men in England than the weavers of Spitalfields. The question was between London, Coventry, and Macclesfield. The certain consequence of repealing thelaws wouldle, to drive all the trade to London—the la-manufacturers of which, so far from being on the decrease, were proved by evidence before the House to be increasing; so that we had at present both a London and a country trade, which would continue so long as the laws now existing were unrepealed. By that state of things both were bene fitted.; and, he asked, would the House, by the re - peal of these laws, run the risk of throwing out of employment, and rendering discontented, that nu rncroos class of people, the weavers of Spitalfields? lie would net contend that those laws were not sus-1 -.- ceptible of impreeement or wmendmeot ; but, te, low i' . l the whole ef 4lrem at * eit tw ill be acting in s. • psi 41111 wogill be M. the 5000 nip of whom ho bad rid in the metro.; ris, nor toe* persons of the same'class•who lived ise counarY. Pefore it was attempted to alter the laws, the Rouse ought to inquire—the workmen ought to be heard as well as the mastersand he knew nothing so likely to produce discontent,as the rapid and mischievous enactment proposed by the Right Honourable Gentleman. From a single error.'n the Distillery Laws of Scotland, a system of frand'apon the Revenue had ensued, which it was found Wein sible ever since to correct ; he therefore besought the House to weigh well the measure then before it—not to proceed precipitately, lest out of it might grow evils as considerable and equally difficult to remedy. Mr. MANSFIELD supported the proposed mo tion for inquiry. Mr. RICAItDO opposed the motion for a Com mittee. The real question for the consideration of the Ifouse was, whether or not labour should be free? And if free, whether or not the employment of a greater number 9f people would be the consequence? That a greater number would be employed, there could be no doubt. It wits said, that in that case the workmen• would necessarily receive a lesser price for their labour—such might be the fact, but even so, that formed a strong argument in support of the. measure, for it was infinitely better that a large number of persons shonld•be employed at moderate wages, than that only a few should be engaged at enhanced prices. In reply to what had been said by his Honourable Friend the Member for Coventry, he' would ask, was it fair or proper that Magistrates should be entitled to set a price on labour? Before any manufacturer employed a person to do labour, he ought to be able to obtain such labour at the market price, without being compelled to pay for it at the caprice or the judgment even of a Magistrate. The distresses of the poor of Spitatfields had been in part denied—now it was in the recollection of the, House, that .on more than one occasion the aid of, Government had been applied for to relieve them,' The Hon. Gentleman said he would suppose a case, that the demand for manufactures had decreased one' .halt, and that the manufacturer should not be able' to obtain a remunerating price, would it not be ua-1 fair that Migittrates should be empowered to inter-, fere between him and his workmen, and say notwitb-1 standing that be should continue to pay the/4min, price for labour? Such interference would be equally cruel and unjust. His Honourable Friend the Mem ber for Coventry said all the laws respecting manu factures ought to be repealed. He agreed with his Honourable Friend that it would be desirable to re peat the law respecting combination, and many others; but he thought the House ought to proceed deliberately, and repeal theca by one at a time. The wages of silk weavers had not been altered since the price of the quartern loaf was 45td. He again con demned any law that went to authorise interference between a manufacturer and his workmen. it had been stated that 200,000 persons in the metropolis were employed at the silk manufacture; now he had been credibly informed that the number of weavers was only 9,ooo—(Cries of Ivo, Leo!)—he meant 0( men employed at weaving. To him it appeared that the Bill, being a good one, ought not to be delayed; such, be was convinced, was also the opinion of the majority of the House: be should therefere give it his warmest support, . 1 G. PHILLIPS believed that occasionally Neater distress prevailed in Spitalfields than in-any part of the kingdom. Vs'itlisa population not much greater than Lancashire, Middlesex paid more than double the amount of poors' rate--namely, above £600,000 in 18id. He thought that Ministers were entitled to their support for bringing forward a great many questions for the relief of trade from restric tive laws. This was a season of general comfort and trantoillity among the manufacturing classes, and therefore a good opportunity to repeal these Acts. Mr. BROUGHAM thought that the repeal of such Acts would do good both to master and workmen. Bat-the question• was, whether they would suddenly retrace steps which hey never should have taken, without complying with the request for inquiry, comink as it did from those who had for half a ten tury accommodated their• business to this erroneous policy and enatantents? To refuse inquiry would be to tura the petitioners from their bar discontented with them and the measure which was to be forced upon them. Thk inquiry would not take more than a week, and if it prat granted they would convince some, and satisfy all the petitioners. The witnesses were all within half an hour's walk of the House; and it was not proposed to offer any improper or , vexatious delay to the measure. Mr. %V. SMITH thought that rice more time than bad been mentioned might be spateal, in orates to *Ray the irritation which might be excited amongthe Pe titioners. If they were not to repeal the Spitaltelds pct, be saw no reason (though he should much re gret it), Why its principle should not be extended all over the country. leer these reasons he should vote for the inquiry sought for. Alderman BRIDGES hoped that this BM would be passed ckinag the present Session. Mr. MONC had irgreat objection to hasty pro ceedings, and to the shutting . out of inquiry, though he was friendly to the principle of the Bill on gene ral grounds. Mr. BYNG should vote for the Committee, which he was sure would not cause a delay of above a week, and without inquiry no justice could be done to the manufacturers. He regretted that the Act had been passed ; but as it was it had produced much tran quillity among the labouring classes in the parishes of Spitalfields, Bethnal-green, and Mile End Nestptown. Mr. C. GRANT could not see bow they could, in the present advanced state of the Session,, embrace the whole range of this inquiry. He denie that the silk-weavers of Spitalfields were alwa.y,s in that state of comfort which had been described under the.op6- rations of the Spitalfields Act. Sir J. MACKINTOSH would vote.for inquiry, net that he wished for more information, but to 'Ray ir ritation, dispel errors and prejudioes c hut irrao_nseans to risk the passing orer•the Bill to another, Session: Mr. BRIGHT explained, and. the Haase divided — For tie Aetna- - - 65 Against - - so • Majority The Bill was theft ordered mho mad-a third time on Wednesday. SUPPLY—LevwARIt is4.43;iin. glik, 4)1 that the Setaireit lesweleat.Cbtor, Y roorand sail, that nowlitilt-itbe . "Kemp eras about to proceed SD grant a salip. of a ltfru should avail himself of the tight to compla in grievance; thatzrievance affected _most injuriesia the Leeward Islands, it being boih parti al and op pressive. It was partial and oppressive, because it too* from these Colonies a large tribute not paid by , the other ancient Colonies, or the newly acquired ones. He held in his hands the Petitions of the Co lonial Assemblies of Barbadoes, Antigua, Montserrat, distress under which they laboured , arising Nevis, and Sr. Christopher, all of which sp ecified the _ great from the depression in the prices of colonial produce, and all of which implored relief from that impnst which levied four and a half per cent. on the produce of those Colonies, for the support of certain pensioped Ladies and Gentlemen in this country, holding no other connection with thoseislands but in the receipt of the profits of their pensions. When he formerly submitted that subject to the House, it was his opi nion that the proceeds of that, impost should be ap plied to local purposes; but since he had perused the Petition of the Colonial Assemblies, it was his de cided conviction that it should be abolished alto gether. It was utterly impossible to describe a harder case than that of these Peritionto s. At a moment when distress of a most aggravated character was felt in all the branches of their in dustry, they were called upon to give four puncheons and a half of every 100 pantheons of rum, four hogsheads and a half of every hundred hogsheads of sugar to certain pensioned Ladies and Gentlemen, who had no other connexion with their interests. Why, the very statement of such distresses was suffi cient to make those very Lady Pensioners faint away at its recital. What pretensions had they or the Gentlemen Pensioners to have their resources sup plied from such a fund? And yet these Petitioners stated, that they had placed their unavailing ap plications for relief at the foot of the Throne. That the applications were unavailing was not a matter of wonder, when it was known that his Majesty had been pleased to grant pensions of £l,OOO a year each to his two sisters, the Duchess of Gloucester and the Princess of Hesse Homburg. He mentioned those illustrious Ladies with no feeling of disrespect, but he did think it a severe case on the Leeward Colonies to be called to contribute to their support, after the country generally had amply provided for their main tenance and dignity; and because, if an increase was necessary, his Majesty possessed the means out of his own revenees, his Civil List, to provide for any addition. What claim had the Prince of Homburg on these distressed colonists, to have his exigencies supplied out of their property ? It was an wow en the prin ciples of justice. There were also pensions of £2500 a-year to the daughters of the Duke of Clarence— the Misses Fitzclarence. The Duke ought to main. tain his owls children, as every other father in the kingdom was bound to do. The country had made an ample provision for his Royal Highness; bet if that was not sufficient, let an application be made to Parliament, and not to those distressed Colonies, for a supply of the deficiency. The sisters of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, were also pensioners on the Four and a Half per Cent. Fund. 'That arrangement was made as a compensa tion for the Right Hon. Gentleman, after having filled the office of Under Secretary of State. It should be considered as a floating pension, now that the Right lion. Gentleman discharged the duties of his Majes ty's Principallecretary for Foreign Affairs. The wife of his Right Hon. Colleague (Mr. Huskisson) had also a pension on that Fund. As that Gentleman held now more than one office, it should also be considered a Beating pension. These Gentlemen at least could not deny the existence of the West India distresses.. It was because they felt the existence of them that they • placed a tax on the gas( India planter, and on the consumer in this country, that amounted to a prohibition of East India Sugars. It never occurred to them, when they relieved theilfest India cultivator at the expense of the East Indian, and at the expense of the British consigner, to Much their own pen dons. There wits another catibUs pfo6f of the know ledge Which Ministers possessed of the existing dis tresses of the Weat India Colonists, to which he wished the attention of the House. It did appear, that what with the depression of prices in colonial produce, and the very great number of claimant pensioners, that the four and a half impost on the *agar and Rom vat not Ittilisione to meet their de mands. 'At House and country *Mild hear with as tonishment, that the deficiency, which amounted to £IS,OOO was supplied out of tho . Droits of the Ad miralty. Was that to be eudureci? The pensions of ' these persons were limited to the imposts on the Sugar and Rum in the Leeward Islands. If that fund failed, they should have pat up with the loss. They had no right to go over want:other fund, and supply their deficiencies; out of it, behind filth**, of Podia- Ment. - He cited the fact, at prevent, as a present' the knowledge his Majesty's Ministers had of the great dis tress and depression existing in the Wess /radio Colonies. On a future occasion he should feel it his duty to call for the production of the account of the Droits of Admiralty, and endeavour to ascertain who had . moved his Majesty to order such an applieation of the Admiralty Droits. If the House of Commons. will 'patiently witness such an application of the motley :of the people, who will then venture to detiy the ne cessity of Parliamentary Reform ?—(Jilts, hear). Will the Right Honourable Gentleman, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, under such circumstances, be content merely to crack jokes about the Red Lion and the King of Bohemia ? What must be the con viction of the country at large at such , an abandon ment of duty P Must it not feeli. that though nomi ' nally designated a House of Commons, it is nothing but a private Corporation, constituted fo . r no other purpoor . than to supply the exigencies of themselves' and their families, out of the property of the - people, both abroad and at home? ' He should not trouble dected that ancient coins of bringing forward a 42 one v licu anm s , e at hi t: t e he m r om m et . n th wh e en s" a iiC su L pply ile wa b s a i c i i cke7l. . He took that course, because, to its repeated exertion 1 by our ancestors, the country, since the reign of Eli sabeth, witamainly indebted for those public isecuri • tire which it enjoyed. He implored those younger Meinben, who both in that House and without it maenad ranch greater consideration thaat arty_ he ; could lay claim to, not tosacrifice such asegrivilegeT -1 a privilege, the exercise of which, Lord Coke said, r kept Ministers in order—to the new-fsne e d dottemit,, of proceeding by a precise notice. As he wa ar m i on , to em body in his !►'lotion the statements of the %Vett India Petitioners, it was much longer than he oth er . w ise would have wished. The Hon. Member con. eluded by moving several resolutions of gred t length, declaratory of the sense of the House that the system of do j os was an „ oppcssabive-borthen au the Leewa r d Islands, and that the House was bound io ineFitipt the means of affording to those islands teller. -Mr. HUM s•conded the motion. ... After the resolutionshad been read from the Chair, Mr.CANNLNG rose and said, that the House, e get from she reasoning of the Hon. Ideinber, c 001,114.4 'grounds sufficient to decline entering into thediio n : sion which bad been brought forward. The qok, t ,„, it had been proposed resolved into two brandies: the right of the CrOITII an receive certain tev'c nn i q and, id, the application of those revenues to Cie piek poses to which they had been applied. the linttr, 4 lW able Member had not brought forward his :Von" in order to specify the means by which the West In& Islands could be relieved from thy a the ditfie..ei e under which they laboured or the means by which die t could be enabled to support the revenue &rival* from them, but for the purpose of combatting the grounds of the tenure of certainregulations uhichttad existed for many years. The right of the crow* to receive minus revenues from those colonies Wis doubted: it had been admitted by Mr. it.irke, who, when he had brought in his 4rst fill for lieformA i d taken care to exempt from that sweeping lieforinth e revenue derived from the colonies. The lion. Ge t . tleman had specified several cases and pani,A4 interests as receiving certain emoluments from dik e duties. Among other's, 'he had done him the hotrod, to mention his name as one who derived some ad. vantage from them. He did not desire to trouble die House with -circumstances; relating to himself, * he could not avoid stating the circumstances of the case to which allusion had been made. Many ytan ago, he had been Under Secretary of Otate: and, 0 4 retiring from that office, he had been entitled.to sw ceive g pension of from now to LVAX) per annum. Such had been the constant uniform practice in thins retirements for many years. lie had, however, cics. clined to receive any personal emolument Flom his re. tirement; he had commuted his claim for a pension of twelve hundred pounds a year into a pension ef half that amount, for persons, whom he fek were en titled to his protection—(Cries of Hear, hear, keel The Honourable Gentleman had alluded us other cases, into the discussion of which he would tinker to enter, as there n as no doubt that the Crown ?mai right to make the regulations by which they received the sums assigned to them. It would not be coa sidered invidious in him to observe, that among thesis persons, were many to whom the country was highly indebted. He was not even sure that if thoselists were examined, there would not he found the names of persons whom the connections of the Hon: Ales. ber would be willing to treat with honour—tike hear). The right of the Crown to receive those sew. nues was not denied even by the Hon. Gentleman of the application of them, the Hon. Member timid not cite one improper case.. The House could At, therefore, in the absence of all ground on which ti establish a Parliamentary case, consent to entertain the Motion. Mr. HUME contended that the House was nit bound, to sanction the abuse of the fundi entrusiel to his Majesty, but which the Houk hacla right to controul. He thought that the House could trot sanction the application of the money of the countty from the Exchequer to the support of the four and 'a half per cent. duties; and he therefore hciped tiers the West India Gentlemen vrduld, by their votes that night, chew how they felt the pressure of the butthirle on those Colonies. }le should support the Motioad his Honourable Friend. Mr. BROUGHAhI said, that on a former bti casion he had brought forward a similar modest* that of his Hon. Friend. It was the painful duty et his Hon. Friend, to name individuals, but he had dot done so invidiously. In the present state of the West India Islands, distressed as they were, the motional highly proper. The West India Islands had then:. selves complanied of the burthen, and prayed kit te• lief. Many years ago, the Tax had been denounced, by Mr. Burke, as most oppressive ; for the tat was she same when the Colonies were in a distressed.' a nourishing condition. An attempt had been ass* to impose the summit in Jamaica, and the =:1 Islands, bet had failed. The - burthen was to five of the islands. It mighibe proper to enquire whether the broits of the Adentraity might not be applied to relieve the Calm**. fit= the pram& He (Mr. Brougham) had brought fOrward the subject in 11310, and Mr: Percival adrivitted that the mat was too great to be withdrawn fro* the lapsable:B of Parliament; and it was underitood that eve/ year a return shouls be made to Parliament of tfie amount of the fend. k had aim been contended ky Mr. Percival, that the compact could not be shad till the death of the late Bing. When that evat took place, he (Mr. Brougham) had brought tai subject forward, and bed been defeated by a ankh! of 27'7 to 155.—The House divided. _ For the Ainirtidnient . . al ___ Agana k - _ - . . . -101 i MOW, ra. - - . • -- "I IP When strangers were ..,, Sir JAMES MACKI-ii certain Bills which were in thi being ctrl hour of the night. Mr. Secretary pm. add. two alflie Bilarvall=" " awned be reprinted, and it was to coining thew Fa' . pose. He hoped there hi' no. objection' it brit VW throogb ad.'g*, as ids still swab au wl il tivdsty soli be debate sta COIVIVATIOIt atrairsifa. Mr. HUME called die attention of the mew I, the expense of the ol.the Exchequer 1 expense had been given in this manner, diculous. The suc amount had beim by France by. Abe of £lll,OOO . for Therrivas' an item a sum too much .d the in gold. • The King t :ludeed, and that baubla might There was-alma( Of Westminster George Niyßr• lie would ask the +maracas UJ 1111.11GLIWOgi spa tans. he Coronation, Coronation, which the Chiliad( ir had stated at £lOO,OO O . 'MI n £18$,000 : If estimates were W .. inner, all estimate's would become , i 1 Lnvrequiried to make up the u advanced out of the mode, mZreisty 011815 . There was an . • the decorationsof Westrabislet . ern-of £24,ooefor - hisidajesty i had the Xing wholly been-400 11 Ling l lndeed,:hata disisnoadtiva t eti • aught beincliashsttin stbe• & In, a, charse 0/UlO,OOO for . f'''' Abbey. Theta was 13;006...0. - foe an 'tecotitit . of the de% he House's had the wattle*" ' iii