Star. — London, England, 1822-03-23 00:00:00

n. , R . . . . whole loss would be no more than five pounds. In ' tount• ry Must approve, and in the present holders of every preceding year there had been great losses in them, they eratild recognize many bf the most dis consequence of these_gales and guns of distress were inguisheti ornament s of their country. These offices constantly firing. The iound was now so very se- had been approved by successive Committees of that cure that merchant vessels could run iu and out of House, and therefo r e h e did not fe e l it t o be his duty it with perfect safety. to propose that any of them should be abolished. Mr. 13ENNET said, it would be proper to consi- Mr. R. SMITH made a remark relative to a slim. tier, whether, if this work at Sheerness was perfected, of £12,000, which was c h arge d, t h oug h no t in these Estimates, on account of Gue r nsey and Jersey. the establishment at Chatham should be also kept up. He had understood that both establishments Lord PALMERSTON said, he had, in his obser vations, alluded only to those points to which the were not necessary. He had no objection to grant this vote of fifty thousand pounds ; but when that had Hon. Member (M r . H u me) had ca ll e d his attention. been expended, he hoped there would then be a pause. With respect to the s um m e ntioned by the Hon. Gen tleman who had just spoken, it was, he believed, an Gentlemen had pledged themselves, if he understood rightly, that no more public works should be under- advance to the Islands, and would ultimately be de iaken until the plans had been submitted to the House. frayed out of their revenues. Sir G. C LERK said, the first estimate for Sheerness Colonel GOSSETT said, the Guernsey Militia were was for budding ten docks and a basin, all of which clothed at the public expense once in seven years. Colonel DAVIES objected to Governments being Vere finished. The estimate for Northfleet was ten 'Millions, besides which, at the time, it would take a kept up merely to reward military worth; wishing imillion to repair the old works at Sheerness. Th e those who distinguished themselves to he duly requi %fly thousand pounds now asked would complete the ted for their services, he thought it better they should Ivhole of the new yard at that place. receive that reward at the hands of Parliament. Mr. BERKAL said, though works might be well Mr. HUME could not receive the assertion of the designed, they might be carried on in an extravagant Noble Lord with respect to the Militia, unless he manner. He rose to call the attention of the House could say of his own knowledge, that they had been to the expense incurred in forming a naval arsenal at called out oftener than he (Mr. Hume) had stated.— Bermuda, on which '250,000/. had already been spent. He understood that the Guernsey Militia had not He wished to know if this could be finished fur the been called out for six months. The whole system of small stint which had been named in the Estimates? that Island wanted revision. The people 'must be the Sir G. COCKBURN explained the course which happiest in the world ; they paid no taxes to anybody, had bceo taken in forming the naval arsenal at Her- and they received 'all the protection that England muda. The report they had received from the officer could give. Ile wished to know whence, and from sent to examine the situation chosen titer the arsenal, whom the Governor and Lieutenant-Governor re stated it to be the only secure place that could have ceived their pay ? been chosen. Government had no reason to expect Colonel GOSSETT said, Lord Beresfotd had re. that the expense would be greater than that named. .ported the Militia to be a very efficient body of men. Sir I. COFFIN spoke to the importance and utility It was true that the people of Guernsey paid no taxes, of the works at Sheerness. but in lieu of taxes, they had to maintain a Militia M. BRIGHT, though anxious for economy, ap- 6,000 strong, whose pay did not cost this country a proved of the works to which the attention of the single fraction. Home had been called. The naval arsenal at Ber- Mr. G. BENNET said, that the question was, whe t-nada he viewed as an establishment of vast import- titer the House would allow a certain number of once. .\ great naval Power was rising in that neigh. offices which were perfect sinecures, and of no use b.mrhood, with which he feared this country would whatever? It had been the custom to refer to the one day have to contend, and he thought the Govern. characters of person.: who held useless offices, in order n:ent ought not to be content with the arsenal at to sustain them ; but they ought to look at the utility Bormuda, but that they ought to look out for some of the offices themselves. He thought a Town Major other station commanding the Gulf of Florida, on and a Town Serjeant of no use, and that a Surgeon which to form a similar establishment. Wishing alone was necessary. much for economy, he was still anxious for effe.:tual Mr. W. SMITH said, that last year there was a meas;:res to be taken to save the country from being Governor of the Isle of Wight, who never held any crippled in its exertions when again plunged in war. other military appointment. The Governor of Dart- Sir G. COCKBURN begged to state further, with month* was alsO a Gentleman, formerly a Member of respect to the Plymouth Breakwater, that all the that House, who had no other military connection purposes which it was to answer were as completely whatever. He did not know to what extent such in. accomplished now as ever they had been ; but the stances might avail, but he held them to be improper. finishing off was wanting. At present a great num- Lo d PALMERSTON said that it was quite true bcr of persons were employed on it. These, if the that the late Governor of the Isle of Wight, the Earl whole were suddenly thrown out of employ, would of Malmesbury, who held the reversion of a pension prove a great burden to the neighbouring parishes ; granted to his father for eminent services rendered to it was therefore thought desirable to reduce them the Public, had never been in the Army ; but the cis. gradua:ly, and with a view to this, they now called cumstance under which he held the Governorship lot but half the grant for this purpose which had was, his having accepted it upon giving tip his life. usually been voted. interest in the pension. By that arrangement a con- Mr. HUME was happy that he had noticed this siderable saving had been effected, because the pen subject, as it had called forth the explanations sion was 1,000/. a year, and he believed the salary of which had been given. He consented to withdraw the office to be not more than eleven or twelve bun his amendment. dred. It was in contemplation to abolish the situa- Sir J. YOUKE said, the great expense at Sheer. tion, and he was not certain whether the Governor ness•was caused by the deviations from the original ship of Dartmouth was not also to be reduced. He plan. Finding the ground sufficiently sound, in- was entirely at issue with what had fallen from the stead of forming one dock for ships of the line, and Honourable Gentleman opposite, as to the unconsti two for third rates, considering that third rates might tutional doctrines which they had that night ad enter a dock that would receive ships of the line, but vanced, upon the propriety of making Parliament the that a ship of the line could not enter a dock pre- distributors of military rewards. The principle was pared merely for third rates, the three docks had most unconstitutional, and must lead to the worst been fitted up to receive men of war. consequences. It had always been held, that for pre- Lord J. RUSSELL was of opinion that great vigi- serving the just balance of the Constitution, it was lance and much talent had been employed on these necessary that the Crown should not only have the works, and the House and the country could not but command of the Army, but the distribution of re derive much satisfaction from the manner in which wards and honours for exemplary services. lie was the sums thus applied for had been expended. H e quite convinced that if ever Parliament should allow hoped no anxiety for economy would prevent Mi. the arguments which had come from the other side misters from calling"for such sums as were necessary to be successful, and such power to be wrested from to complete them in a proper manner. They would the Crown, that moment they would strike the death mach mistake the meaning of the call for economy, blow of the Constitution. if they supposed that retrenchment was demanded Colonel DAVIES contended that the doctrine of which would lead them in any instance to neglect the Noble Lord would lead to the principle that Par securing the possessions of the country at home or 'lament should exercise no controul over the public abrahl.—The Amendment was then withdrawn, and money. This was such a doctrine as he had never the o:iginal Resolution agreed to. heard before, and hoped never to hear again. Mr. C. WYNN said, that if it was a new doctrine ARMY ESTIMATES. that the Crown was the fountain of honour and the Lord PALMERSTON moved the following grants: fountain of reward, it was one which was to be found To cover the Charge for the Pay of General Officers in Great in all the most valuable writers on the Constitution. Britain, not being Colonels of Regiments - £108,522 He contended that Parliament had never done more To cover the Pay of General Officers, not being Co lonels of Regiments, in Ireland - - - 1,903 than to recommend the King to grant rewards, and To defray the Charges for Garrisons at home and the moment it assumed a further power, the monarchy abroad 28,894 would be at an end, and a republic would be esta- Mr. HUME hoped many of the offices held by blished. If the Army were to look to that House, persons who did not perform the duties of them those who at first petitioned, might easily go a step would be abolished on the deaths of those indi- further and command. If they looked to the history viduals. He did not think the charge for garrisons of the country they would see how these effects had ought to be so large, and unless he heard that which been realised with regard to the Parliamentary Army, induced him to change his opinion, he should submit in the reign of Charles the First. Another material a motion to the Committee for deducting something objection which he entertained towards the principle from it. He particularly noticed the establishments contended for was, that it would lead to the most in the Islands of Guernsey and Jersey, and the charge extravagant military expenditure that had ever been for the Militia, which he understood was hardly called knots n in the service. This would be the consequence out oftener than once a year. He also offered* some of the favour in which applicants to Parliament were remarks on the taxes raised in Gibraltar, and on the held, or other circumstances which naturally pre charge which it threw on these estimates. Ile wished rented themselves out of such a state of things. They to know if it could not be lessened? He thought a might see by the cases of private claims, that a rate grant of 22,0001. more than ought to be demanded of remuneration infinitely higher than any yet known, for garrisons in England. would be then established. Lord PALMERSTON stated the Islands of Guern. Mr. G. BENNET said, that it had never been ar sey and Jersey to throw no expense on this country gued that the Crown was to be limited in its power beyond that for the Staff, the remainder being paid of bestowing honours and rewards. . but of the revenues of the Islands. The Honourable Mr. HUME said, that his object was to see whether Gentleman was misinformed with respect to the Mi- the House would consent to cut down useless offices litia. Instead of being called out but once a year, it and sinecures, and leave that just and legitimate in was called out once a fortnight, and the Inspector fluence to the support of the Monarchy which it was had reported them to be a most efficient body of men. the intention of the Constitution that it • should pos- With respect to the charge for Gibraltar, it was less sess. He had never heard, until within the last week, than formerly by three or four thousand pounds.— that the keeping up of sinecures was necessary to the When asked if some diminution of expense could not influence of the Crown. He would always maintain be effected there, he did not feel himself at liberty to that that Crown did not deserve to be supported, bold out any expectations of that kind. Some offices which could not stand upon the legitimate influence in the garrisons, on the extinctions of the interest in to be derived from the patronage of so vast an expels . - them, had not been filled up ; but with respect to the diture as t h at w hi c h was i ncurre d t he G ove rnment Governors, b y Governors, so far as his influence extended, he would of this country. .Ile wished to ask the Noble Lord, endeavour to prevail on the House not. to diminish whether a Committee of that House had not recom the number of such appointments. These had been mended the reduction of Fort William and Fort Au considered the honourable rewards for military ser- gustus ? lie concluded by moving a reduction upon vices—they had been bestowed in a way which the the estimate of 12,3111. . ~..~: ~.~ ;~4 7ti 4+ . .J' . . • . i Lord PALMERSTON said, that the Hon. stem bet hid sked hint a (*Won - which hi,Atright have • answered hiniself by taking the trouble o f walkingg up stairs to the library. The fact wa* that the redtr tion of these forts was recommended, brit that it was afterwards found advisable to retain tbem. . I Mr. R. SMITH was of opinion, that for all prac- I tical purposes the House possessed a due controul over the power of the Crown: With regard to the proposed amendment, he could not vote for general reductions of such a nature. If it were pointed out to him, the office and the amount of the salary which were traeless, he would vote for their reduction; but, he would go no farther than that'. Mr. W. SMITH thought the CrOwn Was more pro . - perly the fountain of honour than of reward. • A short conversation then ensued, in which The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob served, that the two forts which had been alluded to were at one time intended to be reduced, but that they were held to be of some importance by . the Mas ter of the Ordnance, and in consequence of that the subject had been left open to further consideration. Mr. HUME mentioned the offices and charges which he had erased as being useless and complete sinecures. There was the garr isoning of the Cape of Good Hope, which he had struck out, as the coloay was able to pay fur itself, and the Governors and De puty-Governors of Hull, Chester, and other places, at which these Officers were not known. Their sa laries amounted to the sum he proposed to reduce.— The Committe then divided— • of the war to januarr 1821, there had heen no fewet than 2,853, tics maim's:jou; taf time; 1,105.,1)44 been fitit commlsslOns; 597 beink obtained by pur. Oise, and 506 by girt'. Many Df fi cers were now; frOm time to time, - leaving the . Service,, finding . ; no doubt; that t.hey had no c ha nce of ge t t i ng on — t h a t young men, Were pUt over theit heads; and that their services were neglected; now he (Mr'. II nine) desired that when a Lieutenant, for instance,wislied to retire; and was to receive 4001. or 6001. or. whatevet the value might be, for his commission, that the Chan. ellor of the Exchequer:who could Borrow money at 3 or 4 per cent. shOuld become the purehaser, and pay the 4001. or 6001, borrowed at 3 or 4 per cent. instead of granting an antittity at 'l or 14. The list of Offi cers, lie (Mr: flume) believed; now amounted to 8,000: No goat number could be wanted ; and a saving of the difference between 3 per 'cent'. and 13 per cent. upon the cost of a commission, would be the effect of the system he proposed. Let a regulation be made that any Officer retiring under ten years service* should receive, not half-pay for life, but merely the price of his commission. The Hon: Member con. cluded by declaring, that if some such regulation were not brought forward by the other side, he should feel it his duty to move such a one before the close of the Session: For the Amendment - - - 21 Against it - - - 80 • Majority for the Resolution - —59 The next vote proposed was £137,9.97. I Is. 4d. for the full pay of retired Officers. Mr. HUME said, it had remained for the last year to introduce a new system into this department.— When the Garrison battalions had been called out, :he Noble Lord, instead of completing the tell Batta lions from the Veterani, had selected whom he thought proper from the full and half-pay, some of whom had been but one year in the service, and some had never joined. When they were again disbanded, the very next year, they retired with full pay for life. He had got returns of the number of Officers who had thus been provided with full pay. There had been 211 in all, 68 from the full pay, and 179 from the half pay. This caused an increase of 13,0001. to the Pub lic, and was in itself illegal. It was against the Act of Pa:liament, which required that none should be admitted a veteran till he should be unfit for service. A few of the cases were extraordinary. One indivi dual, who had been but four years in the Army, was called out, and the very next month he retired on full pay. A person of the name of Pritchard had, in 1791, belonged to the Corps of Waggoners, and had been put on half-pay in 1795. In 1821 he had been enrolled in the Veteran Battalion, and two months afterwards had retired on full pay for life. - He therefore moved a reduction of 13,8701. _ _ _ Sir HENRY HARDINGE, when he heaid the Hon. Member for Aberdeen declare that 2553 al); pointments had taken place since the close of the war, could not help requesting the attention of the Com.; inittee.- 7 [Mr. HUME : " Promotions."]—Sir Henry could not forbear from making a few bbservationi upon that assertion, because it , had been put forth not only on'the present evening, but also in a former Session ; and because it had further been uttered at vatic:it; County Meetings, particularly at Hereford, by the Hon. Gentleman who now relied upon it. The proposition, at first sight, struck him (Sir Henry Har dinge) as so monstrous, that he could not avoid exa mining into the fact ; and he took issue with the Hon. Member for Aberdeen upon it. He maintained that, instead of 2553, as stated by that Hon. Member, there had, in fact, been only 663 actual vacancies —(Hear, bear).—And he would explain how the Honourable Member had fallen into the error. The tact was, that in many cases of promotion in the Army, a single vacancy had the effect of displacing every Officer in a Regiment. Suppose, for instance, a Lieutenant-Colonel falling, the Major became Lieute nant-Colonel, the Captain became Major, the Lieute nant became Captain, the Ensign became Lieutenant, and a new. Ensign came in by purchase or otherwise. The Honourable Member stated that there had'been 1,105 first commissions : .the truth was, that the Ho nourable Member had taken -the vacancies filled up by promotion, where one vacaney gave rise, perhaps, to five different appointments, upon the same fuoting with the vacancies filled up- from the half-pay, where there could only, for ono vacancy, be one new ap pointment—(Hear, bear).:—The Honourable Gentle man then went into observatiOns upon the question of half-pay. - hie knew only o; o.ways in which the charge of half-pay was open to reduction: first, by the deaths (*.Officers • actually taking half-pay ; and next, by casualties in the full pay service, which were filled up by appointments made from the half-pay list. ..Sarely it was most unfiiir and illiberal towards Officers who were suffering all the hardships and fa tigues of colonial service to fill up casual vacancies horn the halftpity,insteia of filling them up by pro motion. The Honourable Member sat down by trust ing that the House would not interfere with those ar rangements which belonged pioperly to the Crown. Lord PALMERSTON said, the House would be aware, that the ground upon which the disbanded Officers of the Veteian-Battalions were allowed full pay was, that they were compelled to forego all pro motion in the Army. As a compensation for this disadvantage, they were allowed the full pay of their rank. It should be borne in mind, that the difference of half and full pay in most ranks, was not as two to, four, but as two to three. The Hon. Member had mistaken the meaning of the Act, when he conceived it necessary that an Officer should be disabled before he could be eligible to an appointment in the Veteran Corps. If an Officer claimed to be placed upon the Retired List, then it was required that he should pro duce medical certificates of disability. But the two cases were most distinctly different. With regard to the case of Mr. Pritchard, he had rendered material service to the Army in Flanders, in 1795, where he then resided. Owing to the part he took, he was af terwards obliged to fly his dwelling, and his property was confiscated. He was then appointed to the Wag gon Train, and afterwards retired upon hall•pay up to 1821, at which period the Commander-in-Chief appointed him to the Veteran Battalion, as a com pensation for his losses and services. Mr. HUME said, there was not only one case but many which he could instance, of improper appoint ments of this nature. if what the Noble Lord said, with regard to the case of Mr. Pritchard were correct, it appeared that he had been used very ill in not being compensated atan earlier date. Lord PALMERSTON said, that the Hon. Mem ber first complained that Mr. Pritchard had been used too well, and then that he had not been treated well enough. It reminded him of the controversy upon the digitalis between the physicians and a biographer of a great man. The physicians wer e accused by this Gentleman of having killed their patient by giving him digitalis. They maintained, however, that they had given him no digitalis.. 4 , Then," re plied the biographer, 4 4 why didn't you give him digitalis?" The lion. Member's case appeared to him to be exactly parallel. Mr. HumE shortly explained; and after an ob servation from a Member and Lord PALMEasros, the Resolution was carried. £7,957 was granted for full pay of retired land forces in Ireland. A vote of 764,2001. being proposed for the half-pay Officers of Great Britain, Colonel DAVIES adverted to the propriety of, equalising the old and new allowances of half-pay. Lord PALMERSTON said, that the increased half-pay given in the year 1814 was limited to Offi cers put upon half-pay at the close of the war. Mr. lIUME would call the attention of the House to the present amount of the half-pay Estimate. At the sitting of the Finance Committee in 1817, the charge of the half-pay had been 647,000/. and the Committee had promised a probable reduction of, annually, about 7 or 8 per cent. But, instead of any such reduction, the charge bad, from year to year, gone on increasing. In the year 1815 it became 651,0001. in 1519, 737,0001. in 1820, 783,0001. in 1821, 765,0014 and in the present year 808,0001. or 809,0001. Hoe, instead of diminution, there was a regular course of increase—(Hertr, hear, hear; front the Ministerial Benches). He contended that the lull pay had not been diminished in a proper degree : promotions had taken place, and fresh Officers had been brought in. Reduction, no doubt, had taken place in the Army, and he gave the Noble Lord op posite credit for it as far as it went : but his com plaint was, that it• did not go far enough—(icar). I lu the course of fuss than seven years, lions tilt: end Mr. HUMS protested against any desire to take away from the Crown the appointment of Officers ; but be still insisted that draughts from the ball-pay to the full pay were advisable. • lie had every disposition to support and to reward the Army ; ls.tt he could not forget the expense (an expense which the country was unable to afford) at which that Army was maintained.— With respect to the mistake attributed to huts by the gallant Ge neral opposite—(Hear, hear)—he admitted that it was a m:s take— (Hear, hear)—and it was the only mistake he had ever made in any statement which he had laid before the House— (Cheering from the Ministerial Benches). Nut having received a statement of the number of vacancies, he did not discuver his mistake till about six weeks or two months ago, when he men tioned it to his Hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury (Mr. G. Bemire). The Hon. and gallant General need not, there fore, have taken so much cred.t to himself for the discovery.— The lion. Gentlemen would sleep more soundly to night than they had done for some time after having found out this mistake. Lord PALMERSTON said, the mistake of the Hon. Mem ber was no slight one. lie had not only stated it in his. speech last June, but had repeated it in December, when addressing the people of llereford, who voted him a cask of their generous beverage for the accuracy of his calculations !—(!tear, hear)—lt was a pity the Hon. Gentleman did not discover his mistake be fore he received the reward, that he might have undeceived them at the time that he received tokens of their approbation.— The Hon. Gentleman bad stated, that he had fallen into the error from not having received the Returns he expected; but this must be incorrect, as his error was not one of calculation only, but of reasoning and logic. The lion. Gentleman had moved fur, and obtained the necessary Returns, and having these before him, his error proceeded, not from the want of data, but from drawing wrong inferences from sufficient data. The very document front which he drew his statement, by containing the number of promotions by purchase, shewed the vacancies could not have been filled up front the Half-pay List. In 1812, the Ilalf-pay List had become so reduced, that an Act of Parliament was passed to authorise the putting Officers on half-pay without a previous exchange. In the year 1812, 2224 had been put on the list, in consequence of this Act ; and the total on the list, in the year 1816, including exchanges, was 4661. Since 1816, the number of applications of persons on the list to be called into service was 3600 ; and of these 2517 bad been gradually called. This shewed that the applications had not been negleeted—(llear, hear!).—The appointments by purchase should, he conceived, be placed entirely out of the question ; for the Commander-in-Chief had no power over an Officer's pro perty in his commission. He trusted the llouse would see that the Commander-in-Chief bad paid every attention to the half-pay list. The total of the number of first commissions in the year 1821 was 'ant/ ; of these 107 had been purchased; 34 had been given on the recommendation of Officers who had claims on the Army ; 20 on the recommendation of the Marquis of Hastings, as Governor-General of India; 25 on that of Gentlemen in Civil Departments, and 25 had been taken front the half-pay list. The two last were the remainiug appointments occasioned by patronage; and it was a demoustrable Out, that the Public had sustained no loss by the exchange. Colonel DAVIES said his Hon. and gallant F: iced (Sir 11. Ilardinge) had founded his calculations with regard to e monis 'ions on false dells. Up to last year, only one vacancy in ha was 111 k a up from the Lat. Mr. HENN ET bore testimony to the correctness of Mr. Hume's statement regarding the , time when he discovered his mistake respecting the number and the expenses of first com missions. The Noble Lord had said it was not so touch an error in calculation as an error in logic. Ile (Mr. Bennet) had lived long enough to Iran that nothing Was more coninton from the other !Oat of the House than errors in logic. The Noble Lord seemed, like the Lady in the &hue for Seand.d, to he surprised that other people could sometimes - be wrong as well as Was self—(A laugh). Sir 11. II Alt DING h explAned. Mr. W I LSON wished to see the recommendation of- Mr. flume, respecting the purchase co' commissions by the Govern meut, atteatied to by the Chancellor of the liaschequer.—The ! I