Star. — London, England, 1808-06-04 00:00:00

PtfRLIdMENTART PI?O6'EEDIII-GS. HOUSE OF LORDS, FRIDAY, JUNE 3. The LORD CHANCELLOR, after hearing evidence in the Roxburgh Appeal Cause, intin.ated, that after the parties bad gene through the various points of their case, their Lordships should sit in a Committee of Privileges upon the claim to the Dukedom of Roxburgh, previous to pronouncing judgment. Lord LAUDERDALE moved, that the parties on each side should produce copies of the titles under which they seek to claim. Ord' red. The Lords Commissioners, the Earl of Dartmouth, Lord Wel singhatn, and the Lord Chancellor, gave the Royal Assent, with the usual formalities, to the Commissioners of Military Inquiry Continuation Bill and eight private Bills. Upon the second reading of the Bill for the more effectual reco very of small debts in Kingston-upon-Thames, The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM took occasion to observe upon the number of Bills of this nature which were now passing both Houses of Parliament, many of which contained clau of a most important and alarming nature. He wished to call the at tention of their Lord‘hips to the subject, and expressed a hope that some measures would be taken upon it. The LORD CHANCELLOR. coincided with the Noble Mar quis, observing, that many of these Bills were solicited by inte rested persons, without the concurrence or even knowledge of the inhabitants of the place wheie such Bills were to take effect. The Clauses in some of these Bills were of an exceedingly mischievous tendency, and went in a great measure to subvert the established laws : he had observed a clause in one of these Bills, whereby minors were made li'ble to certain debts, contrary to the estab lished law, and in another, a clause, where a stranger might prose cute a suit against an inhabitant, the effect of which might be, that in the sequel, if the stranger should not establish his suit, the inhabitant might become chargeable with all the costs. His Lordship thought, that in future persons soliciting Bills of this de scription should give sufficient previous notice. He intimated his intention of bringing forward this subject again. The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. Lord HAWKESBURY presented a Petition from Sir William Jenningham, laying claim to the Barony of Stafford.—Ordered to be referred to the Committee of Privileges. On the first reading of the new Bill for the Commissioners of Military Inquiry, The LORD CHANCELLOR, in order to exculpate himself and the Clerk of the House from any blame, as to the irregula rity which had been committed, by the Royal Assent not being given to this Bill, moved, That the Minutes of their Lordships' Journals upon the Bill be now read; which being done, it ap peared that the Bill had been regularly passed through its several stages. The LORD CHANCELLOR moved, that the 'tutees be sum moned to attend this House in a Committee of Privileges, on the Banbury Peerage, on Friday next.—Ordered. After some further routine business, the House adjourned un , til Wednesday next. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SPEAKER, upon taking the Chair, was summoned to the House of Lords to hear hi; Majesty's Commission read. On his return he acquainted the House that that House had been in the House of Peers, and had heard the Commission read, whereby the Royal Assent had been given to the Military Inquiry Com missioners' Bill, and several Private Bills. Mr. RICHMO N El, from the Commissioners of the Customs, pre sented a Copy of the Memorial relative to the Woollen Good: holongirg to Messrs. Mahony and Company, of Cork, from Messrs. 'l'. Simmons and Company, of Liverpool. The Land Revenue Bill was read a third time, passed, and or dered to the Lords. The Hare Shooting Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday. The Irish Glebe House Bill pased through a Committee.— The Repejt was then received, and the Bill was ordered to be engrossed. The Annuity Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday. Mr. HUSKISSON brought in the Ten Millions Five Hundred Thousand Pounds Loan Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday. The Cinque Ports Bill was committed, and the Report received and ordered to be taken into blither consideration on Monday tottnight. The Oxy-muriatic Acid Driwbacit Bill was read a first time, and Ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday. 'the Pilchard and Copper Bills were retorted, and ordered to be printed. The Small Pox Prevention Eill passed through a Committee.' The Report was then received, and ordered to be taken into fur ther consideration on this day three months. The Barrac'es Estate Billpes.ea through Committee, and the Report ordered to be received on Wecit:esday. The Sugar and Coffee Exportation Bill went through a Com mittee, and the Report ordered to be received on Wednesday. Ths Ale Licence Bill was ordered to be omitted on Wednes day next. The Acquitted Persons' Compensation Bill was ordered to be read a second time on Friday. The Curates' Bill was ordered to he committed on Wednesday. The Scotch Judges Pension Bill was reported, anti ordered to be read a third time on Wednesday, and to be then engrossed: Mr. WHARTON hi ought up the Report of the American Tad* Committee, and a Lill was ordered accorelingl.;. BANKrtifs SMALL NOTLS. Mr. HUSKISSON stated, that he had already pointed out to the House the necessity of restraining the negociation of small mites issued by country bankers and others, under a certain sum. He wish ed to assure some Gentlemen on the other side of the House, that he fully agreed with them en a general principle, that the Legislature ought not to interfere in matters of Commerce. Ent without such a regu lation Is he now proposed, there would be no mean; of guarding the lower orders of people against the • irnpositions practised upon them, and the losses they 'sustained in consequence of taking such notes as these, instead of ri`sh, and which notes generally have a heavy discount. He then moved that leave be given to bring in a Bill to restrain the negotiation ofpromis sory notes in England, under a certain sum, and' upon inland bills of exchange. Mr. THOMPSON wished the Hon. Gentleman would make a provision to restrain the issue of hank ers checks, for sums under ten shillings. Mr. HUSKISSON admitted, that abuses did ex ist in the delivery of checks of this kind, and as far as it was possible the Bill would be so framed as to meet cases of the kind. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that checks for small sums were often given upon bankers in Ireland, by persons who never had money in the hands of bankers. The poor ignorant people to whom they were given took them instead of cash, thinking them as good as Bank notes. By such practices the public were dyfrauded of several thousand pounds. Mr. PARNELL wished that Ministers might at tend to the state of the silver coinage of Ireland, which was most ruinous to the public. If something WAS not done to remedy the evil, he should bring the subject forward next Session. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. HACKNEY COACH FARES. Mr. HUSKISSON observed, that an Act had al ready passed for regulating the fares of hackney coaches, according to the price of oats. But sisice then there was an advance in the price of every arti cle of I;fe, as well as of horses ; and, therefore, it would be necessary to afford some relief'to the owners of coaches. Provision should also be made for, more effectualli Preventing them from being injured in their bminess by stage coaches, of which from 4. to SOO ruu continually, plying between the metropolis and the neighbouring villages ; by restraininj such culpation. He asked then, if any system, so liable to abuse, did not imperiously require Parliamentary in terference to correct and improve it. He submitted then to the consideration of the House, with great humility, the following motion, which has long occu pied his most serious attention. He then moved, " That leave be given to bring in a Bill to expedite the issue of Courts Martial Trials and other Military Inquiries, and to prevent any undue interference in impeding or delaying the result thereof." The SECRETARY at WAR said, that as he could forme no way by which the Bill proposed could be rendered less objectionable in any of its subsequent stages, than it appeared to him to be now,he should op pose the introduction of it altogether. Independent of the many objections in detail, there was one to the principle, that was in itself insurmountable—the oath enjoined by the Mutiny Bill, that was passed but the other day, to be. taken by all Officers sitting on Courts Martial, not to reveal their sentence till that sentence had been approved of by his Majesty—and that objection could not be obviated by any alteration or amendment introduced into the Mutiny Bill, as no such could be introduced for the space of one year, till the annual revival of that Act. After stating this one and insurmountable abjection, it would not be necessary to go into any length in reply to the other argume ii of the Honourable Gentleman. There could be 1,0 argument drawn from analogy between the Navy and the Army—they were services of a na ture so essentially different. He did not see for what end the Honourable Gentleman had cited the cases which he had submitted to the House. • The case of Colonel Cochrane Johnstone would not have been bet- tercd if the right of revision had not existed, for if doubts had arisen in the Royal breast as to the propri ety of that Gentleman's conduct, those suspicions might have as effectually retarded the professional ; advancement of that officer. He should certainly op- I pose the motion. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT supported the mo- Lion. He complained a, the hardship suffered by Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, who had betn acquitted of all the charges against him. And no officer could in future be secure against undue influence, unless simi lar practices were prevented. It was said a measure of this kind would interrupt the prerogative of the King in a way prejudicial to individuals, by prevent ing the King from acting mercifully towards them. ; This argument held good in a tenfold degree when j the h.linitir of officers was attacked after an acquit tal. He could see no inconvenience arising from the manner in which Courts martial were conducted in the navy. The same practice ought to prevail in the army. Formcrly, he said, the army was not a pro fession of such consequence as at present. Now it had power to a great magnitude. He wished Gen tlemen to shew whaL. difference there was between the army and navy, aqd why it was necessaryto j have more severity in the one than the other. Fie i quoted another case, in which the sentence had 'been totally suppressed. The report of the proceedings and sentence was sent to the Xing, who might keep it as lung as he chose. The Court was all this time left sitting. And if the Kink sent lock the sentence to be revised, whit was this but .ordliMitthe COW • caches from taking up passengers for short distances,' to alter their decision? and did not this do away all before they left the metropolis ; the law already the effects of Military Courts-martial . In tke case of passed for that purpose not being properly attended certain officers of the Perth militia, some years ago, to. He then moved for leave to bring in a Bill to do the whole proceedings were suppressed. The subal away the fares and rates already existing, and to . tern offices 'who h d been tried were suffered to re establish others in lieu thereof.—Leave given. aevistor OF COURTS ft'f :MAL SENTENCES. daftthereyhahvaindg nosu suffered t o u f •o c r e onh; imprisonment, so th n e m ir en r t a s n an k, Mr. LYTTLETON rose to make his promised , their characters to theworld. Itwassaid that this trial motion, with respect to the Royal right of revising the - was suppressed to save the Colonel, who was prose- Sentences of Courts Martial. He' was fully aware of tutor, from the exposure of his improper conduct.--e the great importance of the subject, and waked it had This practice was also a great evil in a constitutional I fallen to the lot of one more capable of doing justice point of view, as the Crown had now, in a great to it—the Honourable Gentleman then entered degree, the power of nominating a Court,-martial ; into a history of Courts Martial, and their origin. He , and if an officer was to find himself entirely at the shewed that the power of the sword was first commit- mercy of the Crown, it was impossible he could ever ted solely to the power of the Crown, in the arbitrary feel a sufficient degree of zeal and ardour in defend reign of Henry VIII. GOD forbid he should ever ing his country. submit to that House, any proposition that tended in Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY said, that in ad the slightest degree to restrain the Constitutional dition to the serious objections founded upon the Ma power of the Crown over the army ; but he would tiny Act, there was another which Gentlemen should contend, that from history, it was evident that that j attend to before the present Bill could be passed into House had a right of interference in the general con- a law, without an essential alteration in the Articles troul of the army, and the Mutiny Act tt as a proof of of War. that right ; that there could be no necessary connec- General FITZPATRICK was jealous of any mo tion between the right of revision, and the good go- tion that tended to interfere with the right of the vernment of the army, was sufficiently obvious from Crown, in the constitutional controul of the Army. the consideration, that such a right was not acknow- I He did not think it should be tampered with ; there 'edged, and did not exist in the navy, a branch of our was no analogy between the Navy and the Army, in defence that was not inferior in discipline or in relation to their respective regulations ; there were, any other requisite qualification to the army. He fur instance, many regulations in the Army that admitted, that if no abuses had existed in consequence t would not be admissible in the Navy, and vice versa, of the right of revisioil, it would not have become him many in the Navy that would be ruinous in the to propose any alteration in a system of things so long i Army. What Honourable Gentleman would vest in established ; but he feared too many instances had the Commander of a Regiment, the despotic powcia occurred, that would go to justify the proposition he so necessarily submitted to the discretion of a Cap had to submit to the douse. W'hen he first had the thin of a Ship of War ?to argue thus, therefore, was honour of a scat in that House, a paper was laid upon to argue upon a strained analogy. He should be the table, relative to the proceedings of a Court Mar- obliged to resist the motion. tial, whose sentence had been changed from a sentence The SEC R ETA RY at WA R replied. of acquittal into a sentence of censure ; another case Mr. LYTTLETON then shortly replied. tie ac had occurred, which had excited a considerable por- knowledged he had not been awareof the insurmount tion of public animadversion ; a gallant officer had able objection stated by the Secretary at War. For been honourably acquitted, and yet in consequence of the present, therefore, he should withdraw his motion. that right of revision, that gallant officer was passed The motion was accordingly withdraw a. over in a course of general promotion, and all his SUGAR DISTILLERY. professional prospects and hopes closed and blasted Lord BINNING moved the second reading of the for ever. The Honourable Member neat adverted to Sugar Distillery Bill. the case of Captain, now Sir Isaac Coffin ; this Gen- Mr. BRAND admitted the general principle, that tleman had been tried for making a false muster, and as a measure of policy, the distillation of corn might was sentenced by the Court Martial to be dismissed be stopped in time ofscarcity ; and that upon a well his ship ; but the Act requiring, that all persons con- founded apprehension of scarcity, a power should be victed of such offence should be dismissed the service, vested in the Crown of suspending the grain distilla the Admiralty, in conformity, he said, did actor- tion by proclamation. when the scarcity should arise. dingly dismiss him the service ; whereupon he peti- But he denied that there was any scarcity at present, tioned the King in Council, who referred his case to or that there existed, from the actual state of prices, the Twelve Judges, who reported that the sentence any reason to suppose that a scarcity of grain in ge was not legal, and the Captain was subsequently re- net al would soon occur. The high price of wheat stored to his command. He then adduced the ease alone oneslit not to be considered as affording any sure relating to the Perthshire Fencibles ; a charge had grounds for an apprehension of scarcity. Under these been brought against some subalterns, who, after a circumstances, the agriculture of the country ought long and impartial trial, had reason to expert (as it not to be meddled with ; and he would therefore op was publicly expected) that they would have been pose the motion. honourably acquitted, but from that day to this no I Mr. MAR RYATT adverted to the preposterous man could say he had official knowledge of that sen- maxim, that the saving of grain would diminish its mice, for it was totally suppressed, and there was quantity—which was the assertion of the agricultu great reason to suspect that that suppression was ralists. The West India Colonies, he contended, were owing to the great interest exerted on behalf of the of the greatest use to the country, and particularly to Colonel who had brought the charges, and whose the landed interest itself. It was of great importance, character would have been seriously impeached in the therefore, that these colonies should not be ruined, acquittal of the accused, and the manner of that ex- and this was the only measure of relief that at present _ . offered. The Committee were employed in - finding other sources of relief ; but none of them could have an immediate operation. This WIIS a temporary measure. In the present circumstances, it Would be of great use to the country, and it could not be inju rious to the owners and occupiers of land. Without it, Bonaparte's plan of destroying our West India Co lonies must succeed ; and his other object, of . starving this country into subtttission, might be materially as sisted by an improvident consumption of out' grain, when we had the means of saving it in part, by ex cluding it from the distilleries. Whether viewed, therefore, as a measure of relief to the West Indies, or as a proper measure of precaution with regard to this country, it was equally proper and necessary. Mr. EDEN contended, that the present circum stances of the world were the strongest argument against any discouragement of agriculture. It was most impolitic to narrow the market, and thereby di minish the production of grain. From the Report of the Committee itself, it appeared that it Was im proper tb extend the measure to Ireland. The distress of the West-India Colonies was said to spring from the stoppage of the intercourse with the Continent: Ministers affirmed that the Orders in Council would open this. These Orders had been six months in operation, and what had they done ? The intercourse had only been more effectually put an end to, and the distress of the planters augmented. The best mea sure of relief would be to open the intercourse direct between the colonies and other nations, while the pre sent state of things continued. He concluded, by declaring his opposition to the measure. Mr. BATHURST observed, that he perfectly ad . mitted the general Principle, that an interference with agriculture was improper. But general principles must have a general application. At present the cir cumstances of the country were peculiar, and we had only a choice of difficulties. Considering, therefore, the distress of the planters along with the actual want of food experienced in many parts of the country, under all the circumstances of the case, be could not but approve of the proposition. Mr. DAVIES GIDDY objected to any interfe rence with the agriculture of the country on any ground, except that of scarcity; and if the Bill should go into a Committee, he would move to leave out that part of the preamble that made the distress of the planters in any degree the foundation of the measure. Mr. COKE repeated his assertion, t} at the West India planters had, by their speculation, in a great measure brought their distresses on themselves. He wished, however, these distresses to be relieved, but not at the expellee of the viculturist. They had accused the landed interest of a desire to monopolize. But grain could not be monopolized, though -sugar might. The landed interest were said to be an un reasonable set of people, and too anxions for high prices. They were not, however, the advocates of high prices. It was not by the high price Of one kind of grain that the farmer was enriched. This Was often no more than wh a t was requisite to repay him for the failure of other sorts. If the markets were harrowel, however, no more grain would be produced than would' be necessary for the dimipished alusumptionl and we would soon have scarcity and high pti,:es. H., objected to the measure, therefore, bec:tu e it xru il L tramp agricultural ercertion, and in the long run grea, ly advance the price of grain. Mr EYRE approved of the measure, both as are, lief to the planters and as expedient from die r re .,.. situation of turd country Mr. WILBER 101 ICE 1111..licatc.d th:f meaßli te , on account of :he apprehended scarcity, ar.d the want actually experienced it different places. 'Fix :t o . cultural interests would not suffer, for the exclusion of grain from the Distilleries would not throw l ilt° I the market a quantity equal to what had been usuall% i • imported. The measure, he said, was gmeraliy ay proved in Yorkshire. 1 Mr. CALVERT, adverting to the cltanours about high prices, observed, that if we wen. to rail: out , i own supplies, the farmer must have a rice that: mig,ir. I render it worth his while to cultivate poor as vifil 4' rich land. Sir J. NEWPORT deprecated tampering wit!: agriculture of the country, and deelarc:d, tilat this measure Would be of the niost fatal consecpace to the tillage of Ireland, which was beef:ming ar:at source of supply to Gre..q Britlin. Every thing that he had heard only confirmed his objection to the measurtt. To prove that there was no actual scarcity, he stated from competent authority that tl:e price cf grain was falling in there i,la es wi:ere, from the stoppage of intercourse with the neighbouring districts, it had risen to the greaten. height. Mr. MANNING spoke in favour of the Bill, ;hick was absolutely necessary to prevent the ruin of the Colonies. Mr. LOVEDEN contended, that there was not the least necessity 14 this measure en any of the grounds that had been stated. Lord-BU RGLILTR s T stated the fact, that in re bruary, 180'2, the price of wheat was higher at the opening of the distilleries than now when they w(.l - be shut ; and then there could not be a prospect of an abundant harvest, which we at present had. This fact *as a, complete answer to all that had been said about a scarcity. Sir JAMES HALL would think, that he Aar, doned the best interest of the country, and laid the foundation of famine, if he neglected any opportunity of opposing this measure. Mr. WESTERN had not heard one word in answer to the observation, that in istr2 the prices of wheat were higher at the opening of the distilleries than now. when they were to be shut. He contended, that from the state and steadiness of the prices of grain in gene ral, there was not the least foundation for the opine hension of scarcity. Nothing like a case had, there fore, been made out, that could justify this measure. The moment would come, when the House would grievothly lament the discouragement given to the agriculture of the country. Lord WILLIAM RUSSELL expressed his sur prise at the silence of Ministers on a question of this importance, and especially of the Right Honourable Gentleman ( Perceval)who had risen on a certain occa ! sion, and spoken against time for an hour without saying a word that applied to the point in hand. He wished to know, whether Ministers considered them selves as responsible for this measure, which was brought forward under such suspicious circumstances? He asked, whether it was wise or politic to restrict agriculture in the present circumstances of •he :min try d The proposition appeared to him inct taste= with common sense. The House then divided, For the Seccn I Read. ing 90—Against it 39—Majority 51. 'W LOCAL MILITIA BILL. The House went into a Committee on elis Bill. On the claitse for imposing a fine of RlO on per sons who did not serve in person, an Amendment was proposed by Mr. Bankes to reduce it to 40s. A long discussion took place, in which Mr. Windhatn, Lord H. Petty, and Mr. W. Wynne, spoke for the smaller stn. Lord Castlereagh opposed the Amend ment. The Committee divided—For the Original Clause, 106 ; for the Amendment, 16. Majority, 90. Mr. BABINGTON proposed certain Amend ments in the Preamble, which were also agreed to. Sir JAMES HALL moved, that the words hal lotted" be omitted, for the purpose of enabling him to enter on the Journals his dissent from this mode of raising men for the force in question. The Amend ment was, of course, negatived. Several other Amendments were agreed to—when .Lord Castlereagh proposed, that the Bill be read a third time on Wednesday. Mr. WINDHAN objected to this, on the ground that the Bill, from the Alterations and Amendments it had Undefgone this night, might be a totally dif ferent Bill from what the House had hitherto con templated. Lord CA STLE REA GH said, the Amendments would be found not to have much of substance in them ; but if Thursday would be more agreeable, he had no objection to it. Mr. WINDHAM said, an alteration in a radical point had been made by an Honourable Member (Mr. Babington). The Committee then went through the whole Bill, having adopted many amendments. The Report was received immediately, and the Bill was proposed to be read a third time on Wednesday next ; on which a debate arose, in which Mr. Windham, Mr. W. Wynne, and Mr. Tierney, objected, unless it were understood it was-to come on the first of that day, and therefore proposed Thursday. They were an swered by Lord Castlereagh and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. CALCRAFT pressed for a delay until Thurs. day.—The House divided—For the Third Reading on Wednesday 69—For Thursday 7—Majority 62. On the se-admission of strangers .into the gallery, the Herring Fishery Bill was reported. To be read a third tithe on Monday se'nnight. • IaSCELLANEOI.7B. Oh the modes of the CHANCELLOR of tLe EXCHEQUER, it was orderedskat the House, at its rising, should adjourn to Wednesday next. The Committee on the Dublin Police Bill was postponed till Thursday nee.. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER g. a notice, that inuotdbmely after the holidays he will submit a proposition to the raw, ferried% die propriety of reducing the Duties on Coffee . The EXICEETARY at WAR obtained leave to brine, in a Bill to oblige certain Parish Officers and Clerks of Subdivi,Luts to as count for all Monies received by them in trust, for Bounties, Fees and Peialties. Adjourned a t half past two. • Y ■ ■ P. .... - ! 10 ! PSC' &G I 1111 .i 161 tai va