Star. — London, England, 1810-02-06 00:00:00

P4RLI,IIIIENT4Rr PROCEEDINGS..' HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY S. Sir Tstostits Ptusten was heard at length in the Appeal Cause, et oome 'v. Penfold. • Lord MULGRAVE laid on the table some letters from Sir Richard Strachan to Lord Gardner. AMERICA. Marquis WELLESLEY moved an humble Address to his M ajesty, praying for toptes of a letter front Mr. Canning to Mr. Pinkney, and one from Mr. Erskine,dated August 31,1809, with their inclosures. These the Noble Marquis thought necessary to full view of the case. -Earl GREY could have tie objection to the productlett of any further papers that tended to shed light on the transaction ; but be stated, that he bad no wish for papers unconnected with the question. His of jcct was to Swishier the conduct of Mr. Ers kine as compared with his Instrnotions, and then to examine the Conduct of Ministers respectin their cii.savowalor his negociatlon. Motion carried nem. ccn. LORD GAMBIER. Earl GROSVE.MOR rose and moved for a Copy of the Letter iiiritten by the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty to Lord Cochrane, Vtiching the subject of a motitut for a Vote of Thanks proposed in the House of Commons. Hi; Lordship considered this Inver to be material, particidarly as it was said that it con- Wined some infringement upon Parliamentary privileges. He cruild not foresee any reasonable objection to producing it. I.ord MULGRAVE said, he had no objection to producing the paper on the ground of any intention on the part of his Noble Friend to bring forward any criminatory proceeding. The letter was, to say the least of it, perfectly innocent. But be objected to the letter being considered as bearing on the question of the vote of thanks proposed to Lord Gambier, as he thought that would be inconsistent with the propriety and dignity of their Lordships' proceedings. Lord GRENVILLE maintained, that any paper laid on their Lordships' table might be made use of for any public purpose, by any of their Lordships, as was a fit and Parliamentary use of it. ror himself, he was so convinced that the production of that pa w was essentially necessary, that he declared that his veto, on the proposed motion of thanks would depend on the contents of it. After a few words from Lord MULGRAVE, in which his LorOship disclaimed ever.' idea of preventing the free Parliamen tary use of any paper produced, the motion was put and earth(' Rem. mi. WA LCITEREN. • Lord GRENVILI.r said, that on a former night, the defence ,! sucis as it was, of Ministers for the late expedition to Walcheren -vas made mainly to r. st upon the desire manifested by our allies, that we should send that expedition to that quarter. Now, in I soking through the papers, be saw nothing to corroborate that statement, except one scrap of a letter from Mr. Bathurst, to which was annexed the date of the writing,but not the date of its receipt here, which date it was obvious it was essential to snow, as Government could not have taken steps in consequence of this communication, until after they had received it. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that the omission of the date of the receipt of Mr. Bathurst's letter was purely accidental. It surprised hint at first, as much as it could the NAL. Baron. He had some further information to lay on the table to-morrow, arid he would then produce the date of this communication. Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SPEAKER intimated that he had received a letter from or 3 Gambier, acknowledging the receipt of the Thanks of the house. PRIVATF. BILLS. The SPEAKER called the attention of the House to a private bill,winzh had hen introduced with numberless interlineations, blanks unfilled up, a::d other defects, which rendered it totally unfit for 7email:ing oa the table of the House. He could not no tice :Al the bill., which might have passed in a similar situa tion ; but h.• hoped this would be a caution to Gentlemen how they i::rroduc.•d hills in such a condition. The bill related to a Yorkshire road. It was withdrawn, and leave given to present Oaths and their Seats. TtAI, STEWART. '►RT having come to his 'RAKER addressed him •t .:WART Among the gal ;ty's army, to whom this Iks for their conduct in the stands justly and emi brilliant conduct of the two late campaigns in y contributed to add new ish valour ; and in no in hen the portion of British id effected the passage of .pidity was acknowledged with admiration and dis signal occasion have you the list of heroes, whose lem in the service of their in the glorious and hard where it was your good of distinguishing yourself ;trious Commander, who, ;uch distinguished laurels m whom his Majesty has c'er high honours, with the applauding country. It honour on that day, to acknowledged' by such a , ken 3 confidential share in . which afforded you the I:2;nalizing your valour and eminently to the atchieve is command. lam now, l by the authority of this thanks for your valorous :es on the 27th and 28th of ae battle of Talavera. • 'WART exprs.ssed his Most lonour new conferred upon exceeded the value of his find himself alone on the he was not now surround lers with whom he had the in the honours of the 'sic :d to the profession of a service of his country, it ►f his most ardent ambition that gallant Commander, ►Hoar to serve upon the cc- Ise deeds had rendered him country but to his profes. is proud to embrace every ►ny service to• his country m so distinguished an ho : that House ; and he con incerest thanks &I- that now of Mr SPEAKER, and the be entered upon the 2H moved for some papers iready laid before the House, 'Won to the Scheldt and, ,alties which took place in its landing' at Walcheren also, an account of the to pedition ; also Copies of the the gQINUMWei chief arid Mr. WHITBREAD gave notice of a motion to - the Secietary of State rcipecting the 14,11114* 11111r e lANKES expressed hit dope ; that iffh! H, partment.—Ordered. bad dence in tht ConAitabe, it load not ___ There were also several other Papers Moved far teir them by any such instructiOn as Oat proposed the Noble Lord, containing the opinion of email, - because such an inquiry must occupy their whole titne ficers respecting the- Expedition ; but the precise to daring the Session, and postpone every other, object of which we could not collect. of their pursuit. Each office would make of itself a The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER separate case for inquiry, and the Committee could said, that it was not the intention of his Majesty)" not be called on to recommend the abolition of any Ministers to lay before the House, in the first instance, particular case, without accompanying such recom the papers now moved for by his Noble Friend. There mendation with the documents upon which it.was would, however, be no objection to lay on the table founded. In fact, it was quite impossible for the. such of those Papers as it should be deemed not im- Committee to proceed with any effect in such a pur proper to make public. pose, without coming, in the first instance, to some Lord CASTLEREAGH gave notice, that he declaratory principle as a foundation for their subse should move for them on Thursday. quent proceedings—such, for instance, as a resolnh Sir JOHN NEWPORT gave notice of a motion tion " that all sinecure places ought to be abolished." to-morrow, for copies of the instructions sent by the After this, all that would remain for the Committee, Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, to the Commissioners of would be to ascertain what offices could be ranged Customs there, touching the regulation of certain of- under that class. Without -this, 'discussions on the faces in their department. subject would be endless ; for every Member would STANDING ORDER. be of a different opinion as to what places ought or Mr. SHERIDAN rose, and said it was his inten- , ought not to be abolished. , This was the principle tion, when coming down to the House this day, to laid down by Mr. Burke, in his system of reform ; bring forward a motion for rescinding one of the ; and the want of such a principle gave rise to all the Standing Orders of the House (that relative to the difference and delay in the proceedings of the Com exclusion of strangers, we understood). However, mittee last Session. considering that it was an Order upon which the' Mr. LEYCESTER said, it was an opinion very House had been long in the habit of acting, he generally maintained by the former Committee, that thought, on mature reflection, that a motion on the if sinecure places were to be abolished, some other subject should not be introduced without notice, and means must be devised for remunerating public ser therefore he would give his notice for to4noirow. ' vices ;as in numerous cases which would occur, the SCHELDT EXPEDITION. mere salary annexed to a place would be inadequate, Mr. GILES observed that the papers, No. 1,2, and, therefore, it was suggested, that although some and 3, laid on the table, respecting the Scheldt Ex- might be abolished, others ought to be retained. pedition, were without dates; and he wished to have' Mr. D. BROWNE said a few words to the same the omission corrected. effect. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Mr. FULLER replied, that since he could not said, the reason of the defect was, that the original carry this instruction to the Committee, who had an papers in the office had no dates. hundred times better means than he had to ascertain Mr. CROKER said, that those papers contained the truth, he should bring forward a Bill, in which secret information, and it might be wrong to commit- he would name all the sinecure places enumerated in nicate the dates. Some of them had been in the office the Report to which he had alluded, leaving it for the before his accession, even two or three years. He Hotise to retain or abolish those they thought fit. He then moved for the Copy of a Letter from Sir would not allow so important an object to be defeated Richard Strachan to Admiral Gardner, d.iied the 4th by a side-wind ; and, shame upon England, if the Bill of July, 1809.—Ordered, and immediately presented, should be rejected. and ordered to lie on the table. The motion was then negatived without, a division. AMERICA. morrow, for certain Pa'Pers respecting the Stamp i Mr. WHITBREAD rose, pursuant to notice, and Duties. after a few preliminary observations, moved "That Mr. WARD presented an account of the Expendi- an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, re tures of the Navy Office for the last year, excepting questing that lie would be graciously pleased to order wages.— Ordered to lie on the table. to be laid before the House copies of dispatches Mr. LUSHINGTON brought up the Report of from Mr. Erskine to Mr. Canning, dated the 3d and the Committee of Ways and Means, respecting the 4th of December, 1808; and also copies of dis- Grant of the Malt Duties.—Leave given to bring in , patches from Mr. Erskine to Mr. Smith, dated in a Bill or Bills pursuant thereto. Au Sir JOHN NEWPORT' moved to defer till Thurs- I M g r u . slBoB. C ANNING declared, that as! no inconveni day the second reading of his Public Money Embez - ence was now likely to arise to his Majesty's Govern -zlement hill.—Ordered. ' ment from the production of those Papers, he had Mr. BANKES's Bill, for perpetuating the Act for now not the slightest objection to their being laid preventing the Grant of Places in Reversion, was upon the table. He was not in the House on a for i ead a second. time, and committed for to-morrow. I mer night when mention was made of a dispatch re- The Committees of Supply, and Ways and Means, , lative to which some difference of opinion had origi were postponed to Wednesday. Inated. A question had arisen between Great Bri- SIN ECU CIE PLACES. ; tarn and America with respect to the propriety of Mr. FULLER rose to bring forward his promised'. rat if y i ng the agreement into which Mr. Erskine had motion', for an instruction to the Finance Committee i entered with the United States. It was the opinion to inquire and report respecting Sinecure Places' of the British Cabinet that such agreement ought to which they should think necessary to be abolished.— I be abolished, and of the American, that it ought to He began by stating, that he found in the 3 d Report Ibe kept. Of the former opinion he decidedly Was ; of the Committee on public expenditures two para.' and, although he did not wish to impute blame to graphs, stating, that among other items which called I Mr. Erskine, still he was of opinion that good faith loudly I for economy and retrenchment, were a great ! was to be kept up between the nations only by a dis number of nominal offices under the Crown, to which I avowal in toto of Mr. Erskine's power to come to any a very large sum was annually paid in salaries, but . such conclusion as he did. It was totally a different which partook of the nature of pensions, because no 'question whether Mr. Erskine's original instructions duty was done in lieu of the pay annexed. Of such places I were w i se , an d w h e th er he was warranted in infrin it was stated, that there were no less in England than gi ng I them. On a former occasion, when he thought 196, for which an aggregate sum of A'142,65.z.i. was i the production of these papers might do mischief, he annually paid in salaries, and 38 in Ireland. There I was averse to their publication; but now since there was besides, a large salary annexed to the office of I could be no longer any danger, he was anxious for Chief Collector of the Customs in the port of Lon- I that publication. He hoped the House would exa don, which was also a sinecure. The second of those ! mine them with care ; and in the course of that exa. paragraphs stated, that it was impossible for the i mination, if he saw any necessity for other documents Committee to ascertain minutely the whole particu-1 he should himself move for them. As to the corn lars of such cases, without going into the examina- pact with America, all he should say was, that Mr. tion of a long and complicated series of evidence; but Erskine, in entering into that compact, had totally the Committee had thrown the whole together, re- I disobeyed his instructions, and of course his Majesty! commending their abolition. Next followed a long . was by no means bound to observe it. list, covering several pages, containing the names of I Mr. WHITBREAD hoped, as the Right Hon. places, which he supposed to be those at which the 1 Gentleman had declared Mr. Erskine guilty of die.' paragraphs hinted ; but he could wish the Commit-I obeying his instructions, he, on the production of tee had spoken out plainly and directly, what the i these papers, would be competent to verify his places were at which they meant to point. A new assertion. For his part, he held a very different Committee was appointed by the House a few nights! opinion, and pledged himself to sliew that the sub since ; and the motion he intended now to propose ! stance of the instructions was strictly observed ; and was, that' it be an instruction to ihem to inquire forth- ; then the question would be reversed, and the Right with respecting all such Sinecure Places, and report I Honourable Gentleman would have to shew why he candidly to the House those which they should think I ran counter to the instructions which he had himself ought to be abolished. He sincerely hoped they would ' dictated. .He did not mean to speak from authority do so, and thus lay the ground of some specific mea- ; on the subject ; but he had heard, that if the dispatch sure for terminating such a misuse of the public I marked No. I. had been produced, it would have set money. He had no wish himself to be forward in ! matters in a totally' different point.Of view. He was introducing bills—he had no vain desire for seeking I happy, however, that the afair Was about to- be can popularity in such cases. If the Hon. Gentleman didly examined ; and had little doubt it would appear opposite to him (Mr. Bankes), who is the Chairman that Ms. Erskine had wiseltobserved his instructions. of that Committee, would undertake to follow up the 1 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Inquiry, and to bring forward a Bill for that purpose, ; thought it his dut7 fo declake, that the instruotions ' he would chearfully resin to him all the credit of ' were observed neither in substance nor in spirit. the measure, and wash his own hands from all con- The motion was then put and carried. Cern in it, provided the Hon. Member would pledge . _ - THE INQUIRY. . • • himself to that effect. Mr. Fuller concluded by mo- Lord PORCHESTER moved— ving his proposed instruction to the Committee. • "-That Sir Lucas Pepys and General Sir T. Tri f ige,,sliould be' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ; gummOned to attend the proceedings of the Corninittee on that : ni g ht, for the purpose of being etathit.ed."—Agreed to. hoped the House would not adopt the motion of the Honourable Gentleman. The House had heretofoie i Lord PORCIIESTER then moved— be ,r referred for the t a moved— appointed a Committee of Inquiry, who had. done ! g appointment n o a i n a un d Se sele i ttion C 7f ce t r t tain ee, tsorwcrheteminfsoturad their duty by proceeding on the investigation referred tion and confidential comyniinitation laid before his Majesty's to them, and reporting the result to the Houae, leav- I Ministers, with respect to the f xieditton to the Scheldt, and of ing it for the House itself to adopt any measures a nature improper to be made public." thereon that might appear eligible to its wisdom; but ! It was his intention that this Committee should be without giving any opinion of their own as to what' composed of nine Members ; the number might be 'places ought or ought not to be abolished. He trusted i increased or diminished, as might be judged expedi. that the House would not now send back the subject ! eat. He had inserted in his original list the name of to the present Committee, or delegate any: . power of ! Sir R. Bickerton ; but it having occurred to him on giving any opinicn on it ; but that the House would !reflection that he was a Member of the Administra act by its own discretion. The Hon. Member oppo- ! tion which• had originated the subject of inquiry, he site to him (Mr. Bankes) had signified his purpose of Withdrew it, for the purpose of substituting that of proposing some .resolutions esolutions on the subject. He him- Mr. Secretary Ryder. He then named self had others to propose ; but he_ was decidedly Mr. Secretary Ryder Mr. F. Robinson Mr. Wilberforce - Mr. Bathurst against delegating any such duty to a Committee as Mr. Whitbread Gen Ferguson that now proposed. The former Committee had Sir A. Pigott Lord Porchester done its-duty. Its report was laid before the House, Admiral Markham and it was for the House to adopt any proiedure'there- Lord GRANVILLE LI.VESON GOWER rose upon it should deem most fitting. to propose, as a Noble Friend of his (Lord Castle. _4.~I]LC ocuLnnhecavtede leatehtothate.,elibiethett ruenadgerh inquiry,was so intimat e ly tha the Committoe. nec L e o ss rd ity P o O f R th C is H . ES He E ha n d cO in ul dee ct b d y i o rn m seelafnosbsvettb . teti any such necessityoby nominating the Noble Lo r d , , own Secretary (Mr. F. Robinson) as a Member of the-Committee. The SPI.A.KER said, the Committee might cerh; taitily . take what steps they thought proper ; but considered the proposition in its present shape - as pe r. fectly novel. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not see .what occasion those who were deeply interested in the event of the enquiry had to interfere with any future proCeedings of the Committee. AR they had to do-was to see, in the commencement, that this Comniittee was 345 constituted as to do perfect and unbiassed justice between man and mar.. —(Fle ur , hear.)—Of all propositions,' then, which he had eve r heard started, that of admitting the Noble Lord to a t tend the Committee was, in his opinion, least deserr. ing of consideration, With-respect to the numbe r c= which the Committee was proposed to be comtitti , e4 he could find no objection ; but be had, ind ee d, much objection to make to the Members wllO 11 4 ; been put in nomination to compose it. In i!:s he observed five out of the time were Gentlenie r had been in the constant habit of voting ag..iiist t':e measures of Governinent on every occasion. O tt Gentleman who had been nominated was unable . 0 attend on any-Committee. To the three next, Robinson, Mr. Bathurst, and Mr. Wilberforce, l ie could have, no objection : they were neither in 11:e ha bit of - directly voting with or oppoSing Government; but he would ask, for that very reason, were th e ir proper to be confronted with the other five, wl-.0 w e:e in statady opposition ? Was that a fair mede of p:;,. ceeding ? Were the Members of the Committer pr,. perly matched ? (A laugh). Was it right that he, for instance, one of the persons accused, shoo Id 2 0: have a representative in the Committee, or rather a Committee so mixed and mingled in itself, with such balanced weight and opinions as to form a represcr, tative body of the House ?. To the name of Lo!i Porchester he had no objection ; not to that of Mr. Bathurst. Mr. Robinson, he thought, as the f: lend GI the Noble Lord, ought also to remain on it ; and, a s he thought, his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning) should have an equal advantage, he should prcp se the addition of the name of Mr. S. Bourne. Ile should also propose the name of Mr. Yorke—(A laugh).---It neral Ferguson, as a General Officer, was rcsuis; ;4 he should add 'also, to make all fair, General Cm. furd. As to Admiral Markham, he was content to retain him, provided he was allowed to nominate Captain Beresford. If a lawyer also was.deen4ne. cessary, he had no objection of course to - Sif-A:E. gott ; but in case he was retained, he should pairtim s off with Mr. Leycester, another of the same proles. sion. This, in his opinion, would be much the nrst fair way of nominating the Committee, by which hofa the accused and prosecutor would have equal tiAice. Mr. TIERNEY allowed, of course, that to a ny Member of the Committee who was deemed obed;r. able, an objection might he taken ; but he believed it was indeed perfectly novel to see one of the accuxd, over whom an impeachment hung, venturing to step forward and make choice of those whom he thought fit to select to inquire into his conduct. (Rae, kyr.) It was a much more extraordinary proceediq than any of those at which the Right Hon. Gentleman often affected to be so much astounded. He had neve r known an occasion before, on which the nominatorii the Committee had not the unlimited appointment of his own Committee, and on which he might nor, if he chose, nominate his own friends (A lavgi.)Gen tlemen might laugh ; but he would ask those oppe , site, when was -there-ever a Committee appointed by ' Government, on which Ministers did not select their own adherents ?—(Hear, hear !)—At least, cn which they did not take good care to secure the majority ? On the present Committee, all were not chosen of the 'same way of thinking. In that case, indeed, these might be some shew of objection ; but here there was barely'suffscient to turn the scale. It was remarkable that there was one Gentleman (Mr. Whithread,) on the Committee, whom the Right Hon. Secretary had passed over even in silence. Why was he passed so over ? Was it because he had shewn himself so well qualified to conduct an impeachment, and to discover delinquency ? Was it because the Thanks of that House had been given him on a late trying occa• sion ? (Hear, hear ! )He :lad no objection in the wor ld 'that justice should be done to all sides, and he thought the Noble -Lord had full justice done him M the no mination of his Friend and Secretary, Mr. Robinson. ' The Right Hon. Gentleman had objected to- one Gentleman as unable to attend (Sir R. Bickerton); but he seemed to forget that he was withdrawn, and Mr. Secretary Ryder, to whom. Ministers could ter• tainly have no objection, substituted in his place.-- Hear, hear.) In one choice, indeed, the Right HiT. Gentleman had seemed judicious ; and if he saw any necessity for a charge in the Members, he of coar se could have no ol)jec Lion to him ; he meant Mr.Yot.e. No man could deny that Mr. Yorke was ho every re- spect qualified to constitute a Member of a Sant Committee. (A /cult laugh.) Indeed he should of such 2. Committee-be elected Chairman. ( Hear, hear. j--; He was not disposed to object to Mr. S. Bourns of number'could admit him ; but why should lth• fteycester be put in nomination ? He .supposed Right Hon. Gentleman considered himself bound i• have him on some Committee soon, in consideration of 'his having been ousted from the last for which had proposed him. (A laugii.) If the list, as ainea• ed, was adopted, he feared the public would bevel little satis fi ed with it. The public would m.r,1011 enough be very suspicious of every Procce sling of 3 Corn mittee,from whose discussions they were exc . N o 7: ( Hear, hear.) If then subsrantial and evident P . 7 was aimed at, the original Committee would bt !;e!..! ed ; but if otherwise, the choice of the Rigli:4 1 7 . Gentleman, coming, in the way it did , from the sit cused, would be adopted. As to Mr. Boiirne, was in contemplation .to add another Meini,er t~ ire Committee, he would slot ebjitct tuhiS being t,clecte.. Mr. STEPHEN observed,'-ihat he could 110: smiling when he heakl the-Right Hon G.2n:- .1.9 . asserting, that the vrosecittOrought . to have th e n .g eiv , of nominating the Jury. Thii he thought extre,n'l3, singular, .and event--begging the Right H 'n• u`s j tleman's • pardoni—preposternus. - It had been 52 j that his Right Honourable Friend was in d;illger, cr impeachment. Now he put it to the House, A%Ile:P bill,witich had been introduced with mind blanks unfilled up, a::d other defects, wb unfit for remaining on the table of the Hon rice all the bills, which sniflit have pa tion ; but he hoped this would be a mai( they imroduced bills in such a condition. Yorkshire road. It was withdrawn, and : a more correct one in its stty.O. Several new Members took the Oaths ar THANKS TO GENTtAI, Si Brig-adiit-Geniral STEIVART ha place in the House, the SPEAK] nearly to the following effect— . *6 Brigadier-General STEWART- "ant Officers of his Majesty's art House has declared its thasks.for t public service, your name stand: vently conspicuous. The balm. British armies during the two l epaiti have most eminently Conti lustre to the glory of British vale stance more signally than when the troops under your command effec the Douro, when their intrepidity even by the enemy, at mice with a may., Not only upon that signal enrolled your name upon the lis deeds have immortalized them in country, but afterwards in the fought battle of Talavera, where fortune to have the honour of dist under that great and illustrious upon that occasion, won such di, for-his country ; and upon whoT since been pleased to confer high general approbation of his applai was no small part of your honest have your gallant services acicrieu Commander, and to have taken a c his Councils te the result of which glotious oppdrtunity of signalizing skill, and contributing so etninen meats of the army under his comr therefore, in the name, and by th lionise, to return you their thanks conduct and brilliant services on tl July last, in the memorable battle brigadier-General STEWART erattful sense of the high honour I him ; which, he said, far exceed( services. He regretted to find hit present occasion ; and that he was ed by those gallant Officers witl good fortune to participate in the tory in question. Attached , to t soldier, and zealous for the servic should ever be the object of his in to follow the example of that gz tinder whom he had the boric= t . casion alluded to, and whose deed not only an honour to his countr sion. He should.be always prou o pportunity of rendering any seri which could obtain for him so nom- as the . approbation of that eluded by repeating his sincerest conferred. Ordered that the speech of Mr answer - of General STEwAltr, L • intituals. Lord CASTLEREAGH mo fn addition to those already laid relative to the late Expedition to first; a return of the casualties the army from the time of its lar ro irs return it, Englarid ; also, a tAI ex pences of the Expedition ; • ~;,;- r espondence between the Cwa