Star. — London, England, 1803-07-14 00:00:00

that pertain havingintotwevunder /set. 4 year, which was not derived from capital, poirefred that which could only be contidered as the wages of daily labour; and that they should not he fiibjea to the fame tax as pet ions who did not labour at all. Here, however, the Bill flopped Blurt. • For whenever labour, or ca• pital united with labour, brought in a large iti:ome, then the perfon receiving it paid the 'whole of the tat. If the Houk confidered the manner in which the intereft on money in the funds was to be taxed, it would be impoflible to view that tax in the manner defcribed by his night Honourable Friend; and one great advantage of levying the tax in that way would be, that of obviating the necellity of a public clifclolore. With refped to thole whom hi s Right H o . oniirable Friend had pointed nut as objefts of con'''. pafflon, he was lure that thole who derived their in comes from induftry were equally, if not more In, than thole whole incomes aroie from property in the funds. The bill profelred to be, as much as pollible, an equal duty on every fpecies of capital. He trufted the Houfe would nut feel indifpofed to go into a Committee 'spun it, nor that the quellion would be prejudged by any inftrmftions given to the Committee. Mr. GREGOR made I•nme oblervations on the Bill. Mr. K.:Neaten laid, he had to return his thanks to the Right Hon. Gentleman under the gallery, for having fo ably vindicated the plink faith of the coun ery, which was about to be violated by the tax on the funds. With fuch a great authority before him, he Mould alto move an infirudion to the Committee, the object of which ihould be, the prefervation of that good faith which this country was bound to obferve towards Scotland. by virtue of the articles of the Union with that country ; by which it was provided that the land was to pay uo more than a certain pro portion of duty. Mr. Wiemernaex laid, that if the Bill went on the principle of laying a tax rot capital, it wnuid lead -to mind's difficulties, on accodnt of the numberlefs kinds of capital, and their various degrees of value. He thought perfons with (mall incomes derived from land. were as much entitled to exemption as any other clafe of men. In the County he had the ho. sour to reprefent, there were many perfons of this defcriptinn: thole who came under the denomina tion of yeomanry, who were the pride and glory of the Country, and who would always be ready to come forth in its defence. This was not the time to prefs heavily on thefe men. He was confident that all the people of the Country would be ready to bear their (bare of the public bar hens ; but it would be neceffary fird to convince them that thefe were laid on equally With relped to taxing the interell of money in the funds, he would alit whether the hold ers had any idea of fuch a tax when they had put their money there ; and if they had, whether they would employ it to ftich a purpofe ? He denied that this m •de of taxing the fonds would in any refped prevent difclofure, with regard to the poorer claffes of people, on whom the tax would prefs moil heavily. Mr. Dear afked, whether thefe perfuns who had lately contributed for the loan, would enter iota the centred which they had made, if they knew the funds *veto be taxed ? The CRAIN caLLoa of the Excess:ant R Paid, he felt the force of borne of the reprefeotations which had been made againd certain parts of this Bill. But when he made that acknowledgment, he mud fay, that a vanety of cafes could be dated which were as much entitled to compaffion as thole alluded to by his Right Finn. Friend. One principle of the preterit Bill was, en make a dillindion between different kinds of capi• cal; between that capital which confided of land, or money out at interell, and that of which the principal value depended on the an xiliary of perfonal htbour. It was therefore the ohjed of the Bill, not to tax the income arifing from perfonal labour equal ly with that which was not procured from labour.— Bat there was a fcale beyond which this did ant ex tend. He mull contend that the &niftiest) was a fair one, which laid a greater tax nn one kindefincome than another. The Bill provided, that no charge fhould be laid on that quantity of capital in the funds, or in land which, if applied to trade.vrould not produce 601. a year. He was informed, that capital laid out in trade, aided, by the Milt:dry of the proprie t or, did not produce left than 301. per cent. A. capital, there fore, of sod. coal erted to filch a porprife, became an object of taxation, becaufe it produced 631. a year : but that capital in the funds or in land Would pay no tat. It was fit, therefore, that a difiindion Arnold be made with regard to the amount of the tax paid by one fcies of income and another. As to the objedion tMt the funds were about to be taxed, he was fully aware how fenfitive people were with refpod to any dippofed breach of the public faith of the country Me could allure the Houle, that in all the eommuni- cations he hail had with different perfons on this lab. jot (and he had converfed with a great many upon st), no reprefentatino had everonce been made tohim, that the mode he pnspored for taxing income derived foes the funds, was any thing like a breach of the pub lie faith. Wi.h regard to what fell Freiman Hon.W.m ber relative to the cnntraforsfor the late loan,hecould atm that Hon. hfcmher that before he bargained fur the loan, he did dillindly Rate to the Gentlemen who met him on the fubjea, his intention of taxing I the income *tiling from the funds, in the manner' mentioned in the Bill : and if he had concealed from tLm the knowledge of his intention, be fbould con fider himielf itelly liable to center.. An equality of taxation was not to he attain,' by the walking of Tian. As much as pr , ffible was done to preferve it in the prelent bill, in which it was endeavoured that wi preference ih. uld be give* to om clefs of pctfoas • e another. Bu it the principle otexernptlon re. c.urnended, was to he now applied, the Bill MUD he g o t r id of altogether, as the number of perfons whole laconic; were between 6cl. and i col. a x eat amount ed to i 18,coo, u.,lefs the principle of difclofure was to he cif rc,:d. With regard to the inflrudion in- ZLndeal to be moved to the Committee, he tiv no rood ground which could he anfwcted by filch a naair n; for it would oozy cnibarrafs and fetter the Committee, ithr•ut binoi , ig it down to the adoption f the motion • whereas, :Ars the Howe went into a C wmittce, t he fame ant:. ildmera might, w ith much none cotireni, nee, Le adopted. Wt. li regard to the exemptionktended to be moored in favour of Scotland. he thought no claim of good faith was in any refreft involved in that medicl. He concluded with hoping that the iodisation tti the Committee would not be Mos ed. Mr. Pers., fo far frPr hla-ct any relfmts t Won him to vritite.:aw : C. 4.1.5(..1 his cs pr ell determloation to tatty the Celtic of the Houle on the 6thjea•, Sir W. CURTIS raid a few words, cot roborating the ftatement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer relpat ing his communication to the Gentlemen concerned in cnntraiting for the lottery. Sir HARRY MILDMAY, though extremely reluillant to oppofe any meature, the general principle of which he cordially approved, could not help ex preffing his difapprobat ion of the meafure, as it now Rood, in The ftrongefl term,. Under its prefent form it was partial, oppreffive, and unjuit. He animad verted strongly on the little attention which was given to the cafe of parents with large families, who were unable, by almolt every exert ion, to fupport their ch:l - increafed as was Vac price of every article of life. He appealed in their behalf not to the humanity, but to the Rill firongcr claim, to the juflicc of the Houle. If this meafure were preffed with rig,atr, the conic. queue would be, that the whole gaols of the king dom would be filled svitii the fathcrs of families. He fo fullydifapproved of the meafure as it now hood, that he would rather recommend to the Miniller to revert to the income tax as it formerly cu lied. The CHANCELLOR of the Excifecurra, in explana. tion, Paid, though according to the prefent mechanifm of the Bill, no provifion could at prefen , be intro. aced, giving an abatement for the number of chil dren, it was intended ro Jo thi. by another meafure id the courfe of the prefent feffitin. In the mean time he might he allowed to (tate that the allowances for houfes and windows were already confider-Able. • Dr. Lawatacs declareJ, tha t as the Bill was nnW explaineJ, he had confider:title iibjedion to fnme of its claufes. He fowl-tett the motion for the inftruc tinn to he Committee. Lord Hawitssroar, after fhortly going over the point of form, how far the motion for intlruaing the Committee would be regular, proceeded to rcitate the arguments in lupport of the Bill with great clearnefs and ability. Mr. Baxiticxrus remarked, that the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman (the Attorney General) mutt be well aware that the income of the Gentlemen who were learned in the law, and that of another emi nent prt 4*effion, the ph y ficia ns, wa :obtained by labour. In the cafe of the trader or the met chant, if any ap prehenfion was entertained about difclolure,thatcmild be obviated by paying the tax required, and on ac count of the rik which the officers run in cafes of furcharge, they mull be cautious that they do nos° much out of the way. _ Sir W. GE Aar raid that the prefent was a tax upon income, of which the funds formed a part ; and he did not fee with what propriety the Right Hon. Gen tleman (Mr. Pitt) could oppofe this when he had been the author of the former. On the general principle of taxation, they might be (aid to be nearly one and the fame thing. The minor inequalities could be fulimitted to a Committee. Mr. Pm. complained thitt he was fo Rrangely mil reprefented by the Hon. Da ronet (Sir Wm. Geary), that he mull fuppofe the Hon. Baronet was not in the Houfe when he delivered his opinion. The principle of the tax on income, which he had the honour to introduce, extended to every defetiption of property ; and he now objefted to any exemption that was inconallent with that general application of the tax. Mr. ELLISTON laid, that he had acquierced in the principle of the Income Tax, which the Right Hon. Gentleman had introduced ; but he *as at a tors to ' fee the necefrty of giving the propofed ioßruCtion to the Committee, becaufe the Committee, without fuch indruCtion, was furnilhed with fufficient power to make fuch amendments in the Bill as the wifdons of the Houle might ruggeft, when it came into that Rage of its progrefs. Indeed he fhould vote againil toe intiruCtion, on the ground that preffing it under the prefent ciseumllances wrs an attack upon Mini tiers, whole exertions on the prefent occaflon fhoold be feconded, not embarrafed or oppofed. Sir Rosser WILLIAMS was ready to agree to the propofed tax as a war rneafure; and the boom it was put into exception the better. General Gcscovue 44 It was perfealy underflood that the former Income Tax WAS a war meafure— (Ne.ao,freas fevers 1 voieer)—l am not eafdy put down —(A Isigh)—Pm lute it is fo teetered in the pre amble of the Bill. There was then a greater prof /ma of soncilslttion than at prefect, and, therefore, tf exemptions were then neceffary, they are ftill more fo now. I with to know whether an inftruaion be binding upon the Committee ? and if fo, I lhall vote for it opOn the prefent occafion." Sir Wm. Glatt, thought that every thing that required eormaion in the Bill Might receive that eorreitioa in the Committee. Mr. Parr now rote to make Ids promifed motion ; is doing which be declined the repetition of the at patents be had already Died in fupport of it. His motion, he raid, was objeaed to on the ground that the Committee was empolered to do that which he wither!, without infteallion ; but as nothing was raid to difpute the Parlillhentary regularity of the motion he propofe4he fell k his duty to perfiß in it t—be caul.% however he might otherwilb apptbve the pre feat bill, be could not give it his silent, olders the principle to which he alluded fhould be adopted ; nor would he vote that the Bill go into a Committee, instil he fhould have the afuranee he now defired to that tffeas The argument againfl his motion was, that the Committee may adopt the principle without ictflruilion ; his motive for perfißing was, that with the inftration they mull adopt it; and he was con vinced that if the Committee, after fuch infra Lion, omitted to adopt the principle, it would be a full ma fon to induce the Hour: to re-commit the Bill. He knew that in the gruel mode of voting inlirultions to Committees, .4 that they have power to adopt fuch and fuch claufes," it is f .r their option to adept or mica ; but where the intlruaion is poiltive and mandatory, the Houfe would, of conrfe, ma compliance with its eulitive infirm:lion. Ee Rated thefe reafoas, not to flaw that in all cafes infirultions were neeefary to Committees for the adoption of particular clanks, but becatife this was a cafe which he confidered of importance, and one withoot which he cools! not give his afient to the Bill. He raid be was not a little hurt at an imputation coming from an I lonounible Member on the other flee of the Houle (\;r. Elliiiin) that he had ehofen this motion as an attack to enibarrrfs his Majelly's• Government.— .. kti!...tt ! (cr•ntintrei Mr. Pitt).an attack on his Ma je'.ly'r G,,verninetit, !wattle a Member of Parliament Wes that which i t hi).lmiloubte.l privi:ege—to move for an intlruflion to a Committee npnn a 3111 in dif curfion before the Houfel I Ihnold he furprifed, in deed. if any of the Right Hon. Gentlemen below me conceived my motltai, or my contlact this night. in any (itch view as an attack upon their In:aim-es. They have known for weeks part my objeationi .on this ground ; and if I did nit *ate them pahliela, In the fir* iatance, but rather evated Still the Salt tromet.e, it wit , . bemire I hoped the a!taratien would have been made in the 811 before it came to this aa,70." Mr. Pitt conelnded by moving, "That it he an mnruflion to the Committee in the Dill to Vest a &lf: for exempting all income ariling from lands, nr from pro perty in the rands, in the fame 11111 HO ., as income %riling from any other fpecies of property, flan, or employment." Mr. Serrate role and raid, that confidering the" turn which the debate had taken, he felt it his duty to (late, that he enterriined Strong doubts whether it , would be regular or «asfifient with the eilablifhed order of parliamentary proceediags, to put a queltion from the Chair, upon the Motion propored by the I Right Hon. Gentleman, conceiving as he did, that the Committee would have power to adopt the min ciple without the inftruftion, which would therefore be unnecefary. He raid he had not been able to re collet any cafe in which fuch a Motion had been put from the Chair, nor had he been reminded of any fuch cafe in the cootie of the debate; nor had he ever underftood that the power given to a Committee by a vote of infirnaion, was mandatory upon them to. ' adopt the purp'fe for which they were fo inftrufted ; at the fame time he Should cheat fully do his duty in platting any alneiti.on from the Chair which. the Houfe Should think proper to direft. Mr. Parr preferred the higheß deference to the au thority of the Chair but laid, that although he bad not thought it neeelliary to feiatch for fpecitic prece dents, applicable to this cafe, which were fo numerous on the Journals, though not perhaps in any recent' praaice, he had, however, requefted a friend to look I i to the Journals, who had found one predict) , in point. It was in f. Rion of 1724 vol. to, page 623, when a Bill was before the Houfe for appointing commit*. 1 (loners to examine the debts due by a Pa matter of the Forces, and it was moved as an inftruftion to the Committee on the Bill, to nominate the fame I Commitlioners as had been appointed by the Bill of the preceding years. Here then was an inflance where the Committee, without fuels ;nitration, might nominate or reit& thole perfons, or any of them ; bur the Intlroftion being mandatory, they were bound and did comply with it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIItQpiR laid, he felt I great delicacy in delivering his opinion on the rainy which had created thedoubt exprcfr. J from the Chair; and though he could not certainly take upon him to fay, that the motion made for this intirmnion was ir regular, he certainly might he allowed to give his • opinion, that it was not ufual, and was a meafure of that kind which he could lea& of all have expec ted on the prefent occaGon. In the very. nature of things, it was impoffible that a Committee Should be infirufted to do that, for the doing of which there is a difcretionary power veiled in it. Stich a proceed. ing was always tiled in cafes where a larger power was intended to be given, but never in a cafe of this kind. It had been Rated by his Right Ffbn. Ftiend that Come Gentlemen, in the course of the debate, had contended that fuch an inflrueion as the pre• fent, was a direft refleelon on and attack againft his Majelty's Minillers. He did not recollect to have heard filch a fentiment delivered by any one ,t_and, for his own part, he affured the Houfe, and his Right Hopourable Friend, that he perfonally had never felt it as a fubjea of complaint. He only wonder. ed be had not heard of at before this night. He had made it a point to take the opinions of all thofe who could he fompored bell capable of film ing a true judgment of the nature of the public funds, and in what refpea this tam would Area them, by being laid on the income ariling therefrom,. and from every information he had been able to acquire, he could nut find that any one perfon with whom he had converted on the Mika, was at all aware, or had conceived the fauna idea, that the difkinftion of which his Right Honourable Friend complained, was in any refpea held to be incunfiftent with the public faith. It was not, he Paid, his inteotion at prefent to enter into that quellion ; but he would beg the Hoare to confider the Rate in which it now Rood. This was a Bill which it was neterrary &outd pais is loon as poffible, as on it very much depended the public credit of the country. Every method had been taken to espedite it, by Rating what were its contents ; and if there had been any ferious ob jeftions to any part of it, faith might certainly have been brought forward in the previous Rages of the Bill. When the Hoare went into a Committee,frre fa roe, is order that the Bill might be printed for the confideration of the Houfe, on the queffion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, it would have been competent to his Right Hon. Friend to have moved, that before that amid take place fuch parts of the Bill as relate to public credit Should be left -out, and the merits of this quake might have been then difctillkd, in a manner much more fatisfaanry than by the method purfued on the prefent occafion. That Rage of the Bill bad paired ; and now, when the Houfe was going into the Committee, for the purpofe of bringing into lilt and fair difcution, the principle and merits of the Bill, the motion was brought for ward. for an infirudion to the Committee to exempt certain perfons from being taxed, under an idea that taxing them was a breach of public . faith. He would not fay that fuels a motion was irregular, but he thought it not very candid, and that it would be a much better mode of proceeding toe the Right Hon. Gentleman even now to move that loch parts of the Bill as relate to the public credit be left out, than to paha in his prefent motion. Mr. Pans laid, it could not be very interefeing to the Hattie to know eiaftly at what time the Right, Hon. Gentleman was made acquainted with his dif approbation of the tax on the funds but he could and would polltively fay, that he had given him inti minion of it from the moment he knew of the Bill. He was furprifed to find himfelf now reprobated for not having made his ohjeftions in previous flages of the Bill ; but the Hattie molt be fenfible that he had refrained from diving fo at the exprefs defire of the lion. Gentleman, who had requefted that the :tell alight go through a Committee in order to be pe inted. and that all difctiffion on the fettled fhould be isoisponed till the pretest occafion. tle had made the Right Hutt. Cruulciaan acquainted with what he thought of the defeets of that part of the nig; landise . had entertained hopes that, amongfl tilt other parts ni it which had undergone alterations and amendments, this' part of it might have come in for its (hare. In this hope he waked making any public nppolition to it, from a fineere defire to promote the Bili if that de fc Et was removed. ' The CIi.%!ICELLOII of the Earnests:re folemnly aC. turd the Hocfe, that nothing could be further from his idea, t:ian :Lat fuch a mode of proceeding was in tended to be purfued. Asto the early past of the Right Hon. Gentleman's Ipeech, lie alrured him he never meant to complain of a want of communication of his fentiments on the fttbjed; but only that he had never confidered that it was entertained fat a mo ment in any quarter, that an exemption was a breach of faith. Even now it would he better to leave out that part of the bill which relates to public credit, than to bring forward fuch *an objeflion on inch an oceafion, and fur fuch a purple. He declared fo lcmnly, that in what he haj raid as to the conduit of the Right Hon. Gentleman in bringing forward his motion, he did not mean to convey even a con*. plaint, much lets a reproach. Sir W. Put:reuse fat& he law this queflion in a very different point of view from the Right Hon. Gentleman who moved thi, inartietinn. The prin ciple of this Bill, In underftond to be this, viz. that every one Shall pay a fair and equal proportion of his income; and the question might to be, whether you will admit any exemptions at all If you admit one tingle exemption, you go againtt the main principle of equality ; but he denieJ that, by allowing any exemptions, the Houfe would be guilty of a breach • f faith. He tbould, therefore. vote againa the in. attrition. The Right Honourable the TIITASTIRIII of the Navy obferved, that the ',clads with of the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) was, that the Houfe (hould take every precaution in order to prevent any infraelion of the public faith. He was as anxious to promote fuch an intention as he believed the Right Honourable Gentleman poffibly could be, arid he had no doubt that fuch was alfo the earned delre of thofe Gentlemen who brought forward or fupparted the prefent meafure. This was attacking their conduct by a fort of fide tuind, which be did not think was alto. ;_they fair or proper at the prefent moment. If it was light that a tax upon property thould be pallid to fup port the exigencies of the State at the prefent crifis, he thought there could be no great impropriety in the Bank paying the perfon who carne to receive his divi. dend all but - the tax, and handing over the amount of the tax to the proper officer. For his part, he could not fee how, or with what propriety, the impofing of a tae could be termed a breach of faith, when the de fence of the country and the maintenance of its Go. vernment required that fuch a herifice thould be made for Ihe general benefit of the whole. Under fuch cir cumaances, where was the impropriety in taxing A. when it was admitted that B. Banding perhaps in dif ferent circurrittances, but who received the fame an. nual income, or pottered the fame amount of capital: would be taxed to the fame amount? The Right Hon; Gentleman had detlared that it was am his defire to entbarrafs or to thwart the intentions of his Majetly'r Government. He ire the Right Hon. Gentleman the mot ample credit to the full extent of fuch a de claration ; but he would put it to the candour of the Right Hon. Gentleman whither, at the prefent crilisi it would not be more eimiderate and more patriotic to fupprefs a fentiment like that, the meats. ing and intention of :which was fo liable to.bp per. vetted in another place ? After the' obferratioa l which had tome fronf loch high and refpeftable au thority, -he pot it to the fhelings and the candour of the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether it TM eight to' perfift in urging the propkiety of bis motion, *nevi the information he lad received of its irregulatitr from the Chair (No, tie. Belfries eNJIrS eslir The Right Honourable Gentleman fattened. ltws not his with to mifreprefent the feniimeneof any Gond denten, but more particularly Omsk which were *Up: vered from fuels high au th ority as that of the pass! to whom he then alluded, At all none lie could AM a ;Tee that it would be becoming in that Houfe to be the fortmeit, eteept the Coy of London, in rafting the o, eration of the Bill at fuch a crifishs the preftnt: Iu tire too it might be °Verged that, Bit Corporation on all other occalions, was almolt the leader of all the other Corporations of is country, yet it was worthy of vented. that to this in. iii/IKINIIOC one City, sot otteCounty,nor oneglotistigh. throughout the whole country had followed their** ample. tone Geptlemewbad °barred that throbst fent was to he eidered as a tax arifingfromi only if tbat were to be the cafe, GOvetree cal3l 4. the Country would be deprived Abe all et eV great part of this important aleafare. TI MM a& ft very confideteble mumbet of . Faeroes who, thonglamm• gaged in trade, yet were not pottered of any cupid Whatfoever, they were merely dealers' on commi and pottered no property, no article of th ( • trade in which they dealt, and yet there were litany of chore received en income of moor than tea e year. lo fad, taking it in every point of view, he could mot lee. necettty which milled for the Hoofs adulates the terms of the inftreftion then moved to be given to the Committee : and he thought that the Right Moment-- table Gentleman &Geld have peered before be GMT*. ad the exprefGoos to which be then alluded-4e la. mented that they came from fuch authority. Mr. PITT repeated what he had Paid before repea l:lg the tat on the fonds; that he till thought it a breach of faitb.endiris opinion was not changed. He adverted to the caution recommended to him by the Hon.Gendeman who (poke lat.aad ceeidarove him. that he had paufed fufficiently before be dmonnined to bring forward his motion. This was their* time be had ever beard that beeaufe no qbjeftion was made .tss a meafure out of doors, any mher might not deliver his opinion again& it within that tHcote. As to obi:tiro:. that ware mole out of doors to any tneaftue, if they were groundiefs, be aver would aft on them, any .more than he would refrain from condemning a meatus which be thought wrong, aeainft which no objettion was mired out of doors. He therefore lift it to the Honfe so determines who dor it was the bet way to run the rids of injuring public credit, by making a beach of faith, and en deavouring to conceal it. or by boldly coating for. ward, and declaring his opinion of et. to do all it; his power to prevent it. Mr. Gixes raid he could not agree leirh the Right Hon. Gentleman who (poke led. the nedertood t him 11;44 his pofition was this, !• That the Smelt. II