Star. — London, England, 1822-05-16 00:00:00

(the Marc though hee Act paean to speak in terms of peealiar admiration of the Holy Alliance, he thought the Hoose would take the Hon. Mem ber's criticism upon it cunt group 4uLs, becatnie his doc trines were tinctured as strongly with what he would call the anti-Holy Alliance, as other doctrines might be with a different character,--(Hear, and lasterl There were nine Courts at. which Ministers of the cond description resided. Among these was America, where every one would see the reciprocal advantage, to the interests of the two nations, of keeping up these sentiments of amity and friendship which now so hap ly existed. The other Courts were those of Prussia, Portugal, the Two Sicilies, Sweden, Bavaria, Sar dinia, Wurtemburg, and Saxony. He would now come to the difference of expense of which the Hon. Member had complained. He stated that there had been upon the whole an increase of 150,0001. and 'that 60,0001. of this was upon the salaries of foreign Ministers. There was an error into which the Ho nourable Gentleman had naturally fallen with re gard to this last sum. It was 50,0001. instead of 60,0001. because 10,0001. was expended in another service, although it. was placed with the salaries.— The 50,0001. was the sum upon which they were to contend, and he would now proceed to shew how it was distributed over the different classes of Ministers. The expense of the six hitther missions was at present rap°. In 1793 it was L 50,000, making an increase of about 1.4000 to each Minister. At present the ex penditure for the nine Ministers was £32,850. In 1793, adding the £4OOO for the Wirtemberg Minister since appointed, it would have been LV9,000, only leaving an increase of about 1:3000. With regard to Tuscany, taking all circumstances into consideration, the expense there was less than in 1793. The Hon. Member seemed to consider a Minister at. this Court to be useless; but he could tell him, that almost all the countries of the world had their Representatives there. Even Spain and Portugal sent their Ministers. The reason why this was done might be found in the position of Tuscany. It was the connecting point be tween Italy and Germany, and it was therefore one of the firstimportance. He now came to Switzer land, which subject, he could assure Hon. Gentlemen opposite, he should be ready to meet to-morrow even ing with very little alarm. They would find this topic as illusory as many others by which they had been' deceived upon other occasions. With respect to what the Hon. Gentleman had said of the unimportance of Switzerland, the whole policy of this Government at all times denied his doctrine. We had respected tia itzerland front a moral feeling as well as from a political one, for we had always admired that inno cent and brave people—(Hear, hear, hear ! )—for their conduct upon all trying occasions. They had resisted all attacks upon their country, and particu larly that of France, with exemplary determination ; but, independently of this moral obligation, it had always been the policy of this country to send a Re presentative to the Swiss Cantons. In no period, ex cepting that portion of the war when the country was threatened with occupation by the French, had we neglected to send a .Minister Plenipotentiary there.— There was at one time, he believed, an unfortunate Gentleman, named Brown , who was sent to Switzer land as Minister with only £250 a year; but that was only in consequente of some irregularity in his conduct, and the sending him there was an act of forbearance. To give up the practice of sending a proper Minister to that country, would be to abandon the whole stream of our policy towards it. It was the key -stone, or the bond, which held all the surround log countries together, and was consequently a posi tion of the very highest importance. It had been considered in this point of view by all the Powers at the Congress of Vienna, and it was there determined that its strength should be upheld and consolidated. The present accredited Minister from the Court of lins.ia at the Swiss Cantons was the Prince Capo &Istria, and France had recently been represented by a nephew of Prince Talleyrand. Let not Hon. Qzntlemen talk of business upon such questions as these; the policy of the country ought to be con sulted, and such considerations as that left out of view altogether. He must protest against Europe being governed, and its affairs managed upon such petty principles as these. Hon. Gentlemen seemed to think that the situations in question should be put up to auction, and sold to the best bidder, or to any one who would go abroad for the least money—(Hegr). It was then insinuated, for some party purposes, that the situation had been created for the individual who vas appointed to it. He could state to the House, from documents if necessary,, bttt he Thought they would take his word upon such a matter, that when Mr. Stratford Canning, who held the appointment before, had his audience of the King upon his return, his Majesty stated expressly, that another Minister Plenipotentiary would be appointed to the Cantons. He dated say the Hon. Gentleman who wished for the whole foreign policy to be laid open before his Committee, would like to hear all the anecdotes about this affair ; and indeed he could indulge his ap petite upon this occasion, only, he feared it would in crease on what it fed upon—(A Jauh).—When Mr. Lesborough went out as Charge d'Affaires, it was stated in the body of his credentials that beheld the office ad interins, until a Minister should be sent out a; before. This he feared would quite destroy the beautiful illusion of Hon. Gentlemen for to-morrow Right. With regard to salary, it would be the same now as that which Mr. Stratford Canning mewed, with the exception that it partook of the general re duction of 10 per cent. which had just been made.— Ile was aware that in saying all this now, he was Eivirz it to the benefit of the Hon. Gentleman who Intended to bring forward the motion to-morrow tight. But he had nothing else to say upon it, and was at a loss to . know what the Hon. Gentleman could say at all. However, he was now putting hit own brief into his hands. In appointing Me. Wynn, the Government considered his station, his rank, and family connections, and thereby paid a com-. pliment to the Swiss Cantons. With regard to their chusing a person who bad a pension, that was an ad vantage, because there would be its amount, as well . as the ten per cent. to come off the three thousand' nine hundred pounds. Therefore, although they should not bring it down to Mr. Brown's £250 a-year, yet the expense would be considerably lessened. He would next proceed to state the grounds of the in crease in the allowances sir.ce 1792. It must be borne in mind, that the Euraordinaries had been reduced To a great amount, and the salaries were increased ip. ccapcquoce, by the mom of jags; *Wows .91)-• sT xs• i his Fi ' Secretary of Legatio n • and when a Minister Pleni potentiary was ab s e n t, he had to pay a day, whereas, formerly such charges bad been paid by the I Public. At the present time, the Powers of Europe prided themselves that they - kept no secrets from each other, but that circumstance had occasioned an im- I mmo increase of business. At no period was there such a mass of diplomatic talent in the country; and at present there were twenty-one young men em ployed without salaries in the offices of the different Embassies. The Diplomatic Service was a losing one to all concerned in it ; and many would feel severely the diminution' of 10 per cent. Helad the testimony of the late and present Ambassadors at St. Peters burgh; and the present Ambassador had stated, that he could scarcely-contemplate the situation in which he would be placed. He had been sent thither on account of being peculiarly acceptable to the Ern- , peror of Russia. He (Lord Londonderry) had been assured by Lord Cathcart, that during the seven years he had been Ambassador at St. Petersburgh he had spent of his private fortune what would have bought an annuity of two thousand pounds a-year.— Lord Clancarty, our Ambassador also in the Nether lands, had expended 16,0001. the first year, and 18,0001. the next. He had been informed' by Sir H. Wellesley that, during his residence in Spain, he had expended 7,0001. of his own private fortune. Our Ambassador at Naples, recently appointed, had to pay 8501. for a house The influence of this country was never so high abroad as at the present day.— This influence was retained, if not acquired, by the high-minded character of our foreign Ministers. It would be impossible to keep this influence, if tho'se Ministers were compelled to slitik into corners of the tdwns in which they resided. Theirhouses, he thought, should be the resort of those who gave dignity to their establishments. Those who entered their houses with fair and honest views should be welcomed ; but ,those perturbed spirits who wished to disturb the peace of the world, deserved to be reprobated and dis couraged. He was well persuaded that the minds of Englishmen were too enlarged and elevated to grovel in the manner that was suggested to them ; and that they would blush to be told that the Representa; tives of the Throne appeared in any other character than .that which became so great a nation—( Hear). ,For his own part, he declared that so long as the Go comment of this country was monarchical, and so 'long as the splendour and dignity of the Crown were, as he believed they 'were, - essential to the liberties of the people, he never would be a party to the de priving of this country of the fair influence which re sulted from that form of Government, and that dig nity and splendour. These were to be preserved by the upholding of our diplomatic relations, which were the best safeguards of our foreign interests. It was unnecessary to say that Ministers, and particularly the Minister who superintended the foreign policy of the country, could no longer discharge the duties of their stations with benefit to the people and with ho nour to themselves, if they were bound by such a de cision of that House as was that night proposed, and which went distinctly to the declaration that they had lost the confidence of the country—(Hear, hear! Drone Me Op p osition).—For his part, he was prepared to say, that if it should please the House to approve of such a motion, and by so doing to place the de tailed Administration of the Foreign Affairs in the hands of a Select Committee, he should feel degraded to the dust—unfit to chew his face to the world—if he consented longer to remain in office after such an ar rangement—(Hear„and a laughfrom the Opposition). The Hon. Gentlemen opposite had no confidence in him, let them look out one amongst themselves (for he was not one of those who thought they could not provide a successor), to preside over the financial affairs of the foreign department—let them act so, rather than disfigure the Constitution, by usurping the rights of the Executive Government, and exposing to disclosure and investigation, by a Select Com mittee, those high political interests, the necessary concealment of which sustained our paramount in fluence with foreign Courts; an influence which, be had no hesitation in saying, would quickly disappear, the moment we changed our antient policy of office, and allowed a Secretary of State for the foreign de partment to be examined on the subject of the pro ceedings of his office—(Hear, hear).—So strongly did he feel the impolicy and danger of such a course, that he should meet the motion of the Hon. Member by a direct and decided negative; for if it was adopted, the Constitution was at an end—(A laugh). .—(The Noble Marquis sat down amidst loud cheer ing from the Ministerial side, which was subsequently re-echoed from the Opposition). Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH assured the House, that he should have contented himself with giving a silent vote, if the disfussion had been suffered to re main in that course in which it was naturally ex pected to flow, from the very able, temperate, and perspicuous manner in which it was introduced by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Lennard). 4 , The Noble Marquis has, however, thought proper to give a different cha racter and tone to the discussion. He has ventured to describe the object of the motion as an attempt to intrench upon the due dignity and influence of the Executive Government; and that the Minister who would submit to it was lost to all sense of feeling, and fitted only to grovel in-the dust ; and all these charges •the Noble Marquis has made on no other presumption than the simple call of my Hon. Friend, on the House of Commons, to exercise its constitutional privilege, by appointing a Committee to inquire into a certain branch of the public expenditure—t Hear, hear). — Such were the monstrous conclusions in which, under the desperate circumstances with which the Noble Lord was surrounded, he has called upon this House to concur--(Hear, hear).—The present motion went, ,according to the Noble Marquis, to subvert the Con stitution. To subvert it t—by what act ? By exer cising those powers of inquiry and controul for which it was constituted a House of Commons. The House, -according to .the Noble Marquis, was to surrender ail -0 4 functions -for which it was constituted, 4110 mention, . al the Most adhereuts—(ffeer, s., and which bad become it source of ridicule in every clots• house and , assembly throughout the kingdom 1— (Cheer.). That menace, heretofore either dexterously whispered in the ears of the,Miniltl4lC-;ircles, or nt• mowed in unofficild io argonaut:, _trionsly cireui laced, or thrown out in that House in i sort of con** nient ambiguity that most cautiously did hot she* out retreat,' has at length assumed a more palpablsi form, and been threatened by the Noble Marquis, 11 a tone of pretended confidence, but of real apprehend sion"—( Hear, hear). To what a coalition was thol Commons of England reshiced ? The Mouse of Com mons had heretofore achieved great and splendid boo nefits for England, and the world—it had sometimes' abused those powers it possessed—hut in no previous part of its history had it ever submitted to such an indignity upon its character. That House, which had ventured to change the religion of the State, to de4l throne Kings, to exclude powerful and hereditary dynasties, to expel, with reprobation, the most power. I ful Ministers from their seats, was now reduced to the degrading condition of prefer' ing the intimations of the Ministers' pleasure to the conviction of their judg ment; because, forsooth, if they did not act upon their judgments, they were menaced with the resignation of the Noble Marquis and his Colleagues—(Cheers). In the lowest abyss of degradation to which the slan ders of the most unprincipled calumniator could have reduced the character of that House, there could be no condition more revolting than that which the Noble Marquis had ventured to announce—(Hear). What was it but stating, that though they (the Minis ters) knew the opinions of the majority, yet that ma jority dared not to alit upon their conscientious con viction ? If it were otherwise, where was the neces sity of such an unequivocal declaration ? If they did not feel certain that the House was opposed to their determination, no such menace of retreat would have been avowed. The Noble Marquis made the avowal because he well knew a great portion of those who had heretofore supported his administration were opposed to his policy, while ,he was determined, if possible, not to give way to their wishes—(Hear, hear). That was playing a deep game ; the Noble Marquis was throwing for a great stake. He (Sir James) could not, however, think so badly of that House--he could not fancy Them so lost to all sense even of collective pride,-as to believe that such a degrading menace, which was itself a proof that all argument was want ing, and every other hope of support excluded,would .drive that majority from their purpose. In the name of their ancient glory, in consideration of those high duties which were imposed upon them, and the faith ful discharge of which could alone regain for them the affections of the people, he did implore them to scout, as became them, that degrading threat ; and not allow it to be recorded of the present House of Commons, that it preferred the pleasure of the Minis ter to the dictates of their own conscience !—(Hear).— Was that the return which the faithful supporters of the Noble Marquis deserved at his hands? Was it thus that he redeemed his obligations of gratitude to those who on so many occasions upheld his Adminis tration?—(Hear). With what a character would he send the Representatives of England, at. any future Election, to meet their constituents 1 They were so reduced in his estimation, that they were compelled to listen patiently to language, which in former times, if addressed to the Reptesentatives of Great Britain, would have hurled Monarchs from their Thu ones— (Hear). But the Noble Marquis did not satisfy him self with the threat, but avowed it in the most con tumelious manner. He has told you that he, the Fo reign Secretary, the great pacificator of Europe, the companion of Emperors and Kings, disdained to go into the leading-strings of a Committee of the House of Commons—(Hear). The Noble Marquis did not condescend to inquire how that Committee was to be `appointed—(Hear, hear). How could it be appointed brit by a decision of the majority of that House?— But what cared the Noble Marquis for the decision of a House of Commons ?—(Hear). He was too full of Russian and Prussian maxims to be checked by 'such an interposition—(Hear). He would never con; sent to be interrogated by a Committee of its appoint ment. The House must give up its judgment, or, dreadful alternative, the tountry lose its Minister ! 44 Nec enim levia ant ludicra petttntur Prasmia, sed Turni de vita et sanguine certant."—(Hear). But Mark the inconsistency of the Noble Marquis: nothing he has said could be more abominable, more unwise, more injurious to the honour of the Execu tive Government, or more at variance with the prin ciples of the Constitution, than to condemn the Fo reign Minister's department to the investigation of a Committee of that House ; and yet all those very ar-, rangements, to which he himself had adverted, and on which he laid such stress, were founded on a Re port of a Select Committee, which then usurped the functions of the Crown, and extended its inquiries ' into every branch of the Foreign Office (Hear, hear). All these matters were strictly correct and legal in 1815, though in 1822 the Noble Marquis has ven tured to say they would be subversive of the Consti tution. ,He (Sir James) had now to say a few words on the subject of that political inflnence which the Noble Marquis took so much credit for as belonging to this country. Never was there a period when, ac cording to the Noble Marquis, our influence through out Europe stood so high, that influence which was the natural result of all the glories of the qui ntu ple alliance. The glories of the quintuple alliance ! If by these glories were meant what was due to the talents of Military Commanders and the prowess of those armies that humbled the power of France, he (Sir J. Mackin tosh) did not see how that part of e subject could be brought into the discussion at this day. But, inde pendent of military glory, where was the influence of this country with the Powers of Europe exemplified? The*Noble Marquis had charged it as a crime on the Members of his (Sir J. Mackintosh's) side of the House, that they were enemies of the Holy Alliance. But in a solemn State Paper the Noble Lord had I made similar and stronger charges, in a document I, addrened to our Ministers abroad, in 1821, aping be rise i iPPg3 num " be ed t b b i f Gen - 0 .4 94 its. " . s Of d° r l a s n ' it and e b h Gt il iel r 'ev a re : 4P t lit' er fnen)Werit laken refuge in Geneva; they were demanded b be given als o but had made their escape th r o ug h t he oon nivance of the Genevese Governme nt . ;;I Th an o :wa ra s en so were now perfectly helpless, and knew n o t wherie t td bide their heads. If the influence of En powerful on the Continent, then she was a party WI al) those nefarious transactions. The Noble Lord could only disOnnect himself from those proceedings by unsaying what he had just asserted—(Hear, hear): The Noble Marquis had talked of particular persons of large private fortunes, who out of their fortunes bad expended much in the prosecution of their foreign Esubasaies, but that was no evidence that could ap..; ply to the case, for he did not see why many of our • Ambassadors should not be selecteJ from the same class of men There never was a time in the history of this country when the English Nobility were more anxious to qualify themselves for all situations in which their talents might be employed for the service of the country—(Hear, hear).—lnstead of yielding to the temptations arising from their rank and fortune, they. studiously applied themselves ro the cultivation of their mind's and preparatiian for public business.— With respect to Florence, he did not see the necessity of keeping up an expensive establishment in that petty State, since the death of the last member of the Pretender's family: The Noble. Alaiquis had al luded to the United States of America, and he (Sir Mackintosh) could not help observing the proud mo narchical disdain with which the Noble Marquis look ed down upon the economy of that Republic—(Heari hear, from the Opposition). It might, perhaps, be fitting language for a courtier, but it was strange lan guage to address to a House of Commons—(Near): The House of Commons was that branch which re presents the People—he used the tern People without any of those qUalifications with which it was so much the fashion in these times to qualify it—that House, therefore, as the Representative of the People was bound to watch the expenditure of the public Money appauch as any Republic—(Hear, hear, front the :ill- tsiderial side). If it was true, as the cheers of the Noble Marquis seemed to imply, that they were .to have no Republican' partialities about them, still, to use the languageof Mr. But ke, he would ask, was it right that they should have, at the same time, a coati plaining People and an addressing House of commons? Notwithstanding the imperial disdain with which the Noble Marquis looked down upon that great Repub lic, they were making daily and pacific conquests from the desert, and were likely to spread the bless ings of liberty over a larger space than despotic power had ever been able to curse by its visitatious—(Hear, hear).—He had not misrepiesented the sentiments of the Noble Marquis. The House understood terms as well as words —(Hear, hear). — In the progress ()this speech he had complimented many Gentieuien now engaged in diplomacy ; that compliment he believed to be just, if he had no other pi oof than the instances which that House afforded of men of laige fortune devoting their time and study to the public business, some of them with out - even an opportunity of serv ing friends or providing for dependants. But while be admitted so much w ith respect to the diplomatists of this country, he knew encugh of America to wish That England might be served as welt by her Ministers abroad as that Republic was by her Mi nisters, notwithstanding her economy—(hear, hear). The Noble Marquis had stated his disinclination to have men bidding for office ; but he ought not to be too sum that the increase of allowances was the best way to prevent the bidding tar place. He surely was sufficiently versed in political economy to sup pose that by increasing the value be w ould diminish the competition for these appointments; and he pro bably was not ignorant that great appointments abroad were generally repaid by willing services at home—(Hear, hear).—He was awn e that he had al ready trespassed too long on the attention of die House, upon a subject on which he would not have troubled them at all, had it not been for the doi trines laid down, and the tone adopted by the Noble Marquis—(llear, hear). Mr. F. ROBINSON declared that he could not discover in the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who spoke last, any one expression that could apply to the question before the House. His Noble Friend was justified in what he had said, that if the House a Commons no longer gave its conhdeace to Ministers, they could no longer continue to conduct the affairs of the country ; and how Cstl snit a declaration be considered as an insult to the House? lle appealed to those who heard his Noble Friend's speech, whether there was ever a case stated which could produce a stronger conviction as to the truth pf the • statements contained in it ? Mr. CREEVEY said, lie should detain the House but a few minutes. It was a most daring statement of the Noble*Lorskto say, that if the Mime appointed a Committee *of Inquiry he would not attend it; and that it would be disfiguring the Mo natchy to transfer its power to a Committee of that Houser -This was the most daring statement ever made in the Howe of Commons—(Hear,hear).—While there was a famine in Ireland, sing while distress pervaded all parts of the country, was it not it to inquire whether our diplomatic missions were properly filled, and whether they were not too expensive?—(Hear, hear). Either the House ought to vindicate its character by an assertion' of its rights, or to adjourn at once, and no longer pretend to exercise •functions that wete the subject of ridicule and contempt. Cord Stewan and Lord Burghersh were residing in London, with the salaries and appointments of Foreign Ministers. He could not, for his own part, conceive a stronger cue, nor a grosser insult to that House. than to call such a Committee as was contemplated by the present motion, a disfigurement of the Monarchy of England. Mr. TIERNEY, on the present occasion, could not give a Anent vote. He should not advert to the various topics of the Noble Lord, and to whom such a triumphant reply had been made by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. The only question Ma, could any saving .be made in the public expenditure? The ease was, that Ministers were so sore from the repeated defeats they had received, that they had resolved to make what was called a stand, and a meeting bad been held on that subject. •It was doubtleas eottstitutiooal for Ministers to resign, whin they ' bad lost the confidence of that House; but to bon out a threat of that kind, in ordbr to intluenc.e the vote of any Member, was unconstitutional in the highest degree. It had haw said that he (Mr. Tierney) bed &gloried to attend the former Committee on this subject. But Waviest the use of attending - a Cr:ante s whenVaei wercl avoure a with no useful informat io n b its routine, more eye. beeo the cisarli, List,f wailt ,e . tae 4ra hla u ze ainter g t beiond fare the shird.ciast of dally after his Majesty hid so .graciessly glow en 430,11.0 at the walks qt many of his condone. 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When an Ambisisidoi was hear). which, nun. its Tvetition, had 'ceased to ularm demand had been fnUde by the Austriad Goventenenti b e - s absent from his mission, he had to pay ES a day to even thi most devoted adherents—Wear, hea r ), and supported by the Aufkisadois of the tither Powell. 1 ....._ his AterPturep ...r s ......:,... . .... A ..3........ 1141..:-.-- ni-....: ..1.7...1. 1.#..1 1......'-___ _7 ...•••••1110i J i 4 '