Star. — London, England, 1831-07-05 00:00:00

ti .r 3 t trint'n ed he circumstance that there were prtsons paying at vet: •ttfliel.nt rent. tout rot paying it half yearly, who son id be disfranchised by the clause ; but, as to any thing like the extent to which the disfranchising would go, he ( Mr. ti.) had certainly conveyed in any thing he said nothing to him like it. In a bill like the present, comprehending so 'l3Blll , cl WWI regoiring to be considered, and reconsidered, ri rcapy vows. there must have passed on the part of Mr. and en the pan of those representing government, es!,o g..ve hi n Listructiont, a great variety of discussions. t •tts Atoll discussions were consequently started on va- T'''" 11%, but ii l r. Gregson had *aid nothing in respect t,l this alteration which had left any greater impression on ntind than respecting any thing else. He felt bound to say, that thctigh exceedin sly sorry any person should have blame thro oti p.m them, and Mr. O. on this occas;on was in no way to blast e, yet the publication of any communication so confi den.:al as those which passed between the government and the perso a wtti.m they selected to draw up a bill like this for the purpose of submi git to parliament. must be very preju. uicial to the public service—(bear. hear,)—and that it watt impfs,ible for him, after giving this explanation, even to enter further into the subject. or not to consider in future every thing that passed between Government and those whom they employed to draw up their bills, such as ought tat be kept religiously secret. (Hear, hear.) And he was sure that when Mr. Gregson came to his noble friend be must have had this feeling, that if a contradiction was to be given to an authorised publication that it should be given in this House; and that it should not meet the public eye by other statements wholly groundless, and intended and calculated only to throw reflections on the conduct of thirst who ha I been the promoters of the bill : statements made with a total disregard to truth, and every possible disrespect to the character of his Majesty's Government. ESTCOURT felt it almost impossible to ;Wain from entering into more detail on this subject, unless be could compel from the noble lord opposite a simple, plain, unsophisticated declaration, that no blame, either profs. sionally, directly, indirectly or otherwise, was to be at■ tached to Mr. Oregson. He requested to have a plain un. varnished statement to that effect. Lord ALTHORP had no hesitation whatever in saying that Mr. Gregson had no concern in any way with the clause in question, except being employed by the direction of Government to draw it up. (Hear, hear.) He wished to exempt Mr. Oregson front any blame whatever. (Hear, hear, and cries of " Quite enough.") Sir R. PEEL said, he could not help adverting to the statement made by the Noble Lord, at the conclusion of his speech, of some diverging from the sacredness of confidential communications, that the Government had to complain of. He did think there was allusion here to the communications that had taken place between Government and Mr. Gregson. If imputations were meant to be thrown out by the Noble Lord upon the integrity of that gentleman, he could assure the house that it did great injustice to Mr. Gregson, who valued professional honour and sacred integrity more thin tale. lie (Sit Robert Peel) had the honour of selecting Mr. Gregson, some years since, to draw up some bills to cum., sadidate and improve the state of the laws, and, although 1 1 habits of private intimacy had thereby been superinduced, so 1 . scrupulously had that gentleman discharged his duty to the present Government, that be had entirely abandoned that pri. sate intercourse, and on no occasion had he made any com munication at all to him (Sir Robert Peel.) If no such reference were intended to Mr. Oregson, he was sure that the Noble Lord would be glad of the opportunity so afforded of altogether disclaiming it. lord J. RUSSELL then rose and said, lie had made no such reflection on the character and honour of the gentleman alluded to, nor had be cast any imputation on him what ever with reference to his conduct in this proceeding. If the Right Hon. Member for Tsmworth had recollected what he ( Lord John Hassell) had said in his former statement, he should have remembered that Mr. Oregson had declared himself of opinion, that if unfounded statements woe made with respect to him in the public papers, the only way he could obtain redress was by coming to the Members of Government and obtaining a contradiction from them, and made in that House. He (Lord John Russell) added, at that time, that he thought the practice itself of giving garbled accounts of what had passed between Government and their confidential agents, was a practice much to be deprecated, as prejudicial to the public service, and therefore he hoped that another instance of it would not be presented. (Cheers.) He thought the Right Hon. Member himself might have felt aggrieved if. when he was Secretary of State, and when engaged in drawing u p . any bill of importance for the con sideration of the Legislature, a garbled statement of what lwal passed between him and Mr. Gregson had ever ap. peered In the public prints.—(Hear, bear, hear.) While however he deprecated the present practice as detri mental, he would repeat that in all his intercourse with the gentleman he had just alluded to, he had uniformly found him a man not only of great ability and profes sional experience, but one on whose integrity he wad im plicitly rely. Sir It. PEEL was perfectly satis fi ed with the open and honourable statement of the Nobe Lord. The Order of the Day was then read. On the motion that the Bill be now read a second time, Sir J. WALSH rose and said, on a former occasion, when a measure, which, however, differing from the present, in its several important details, yet resembling it in its gene ral features, was submitted to the attention of that house, he had exp ressed himself unequivocally hostile to it. These first impressions he had reiterated to his constituents ; but if, on any subsequent consideration of it, by the investiga tion of its details, which he might afterwards give to it, he had in any respect been led to alter these impressions, he could assure the house that no false shame, no pride of con sistency, would, on a subject of such importance, have de terred him from coming forward, and boldly declaring, that he had taken a hasty and erroneous view of the subject.— ( Hear, hip, hear.) But he was equally bound to stale to the house, that the most mature, - impartial consideration he had been enabled to bestow on the subject, had not produced such a result. The more he investigated the principles and bearings of the measure, the snore was he convinced of its unconstitutional character and dangerous re. sults. Honourable members on the other side the house had deprecated all irritation and bitterness of party feeling in its discussion ; with coolness and moderation he would wish to discuss the measure. He lamented, however, that the virulence of party feeling had already been excited throughout the country, and that a spirit of partisanship was abroad in the community. He did not allude to the state of feeling in a particular town, but simply to the es. cited state of popular feeling throughout the country In fat our of the bill, the whole bill, and nothing but the bill. He would put it to the members of the present House of Commons, whether in the short period that had elapsed since this subject had been brought forward, feelings of the kir.d he had alluded to had not been created, which he was I sure bad no parallel in the recollection of the members e( tlgs house, and could scarcely be paralleled by the violins party diesentions that had existed. This in itself elm:IF proved the evil that would result front such a measure.— He considered that the present bill was fraught with the worst consequences. He did not mean to refer to the dicussions that had taken place on the subject of the recent dissolution, or upon the propriety of it. That had al. ready been sufficiently discussed, but there were some of the consequences of which had produced symptoms of a temper and feeling in a large portion of the community which had a direct bearing on die subject. It had even been made a boast that a very large portion of the hon. gentlemen had been returned pledged to vote for this measure in all its bearings and extent ; pledged to vote for it without consult ing their own judgments—(cries of No, no)—they had been returned, pledged to vote for the measure—for the measure without having the advantage of second thoughts—pledged stobably without havi- - fully and in all instances having of - occurrences that had taken place at Wigton, Rye, Banbury, and the riots in Scotland. Other disturbances had taken place which had led to considerable loss of life. (Cries of oh, oh, and hear, hear) Honourable Members did not give entire cretieuce to this t perhaps, they would allow him to read a few extracts frous - a paper called the Cambria% published at Swansea, whiCh gave a detailed account of the meetings of the miners at 'Merthyr Ty4vill, and the Ants 'that had taken place thert.'Ai these meetings Fan prides was bestowed on the Reform Bill, and it was said that it would certainly be the means of obtaining for the people their ellthts, and that they would be properly represented In Parliament. (Hear.) The hon. baronet believed he was not quite in or. der in alluding to a speech of the noble lord's opposite on a former occasion ; but he hoped the house would on this cic ada excuse him if be did so, as he had not then an op .psetunity of observing upon it. The noble lord upon that occasion took an opportunity of adverting to a publication of his (Sir J. W.'s), and in terms not consistent with his usual courtesy, charging his (Sir J. W.'s) objections to the measure as tending to lessen the gradations in society. He could not, however, hut think, notwithstanding the noble lord might have supposed him ignorant of the subject, that he ins well enough informed upon it. He did dot go into ancient history for information, nor did he dive into black letter books, nor even into the history of the Tudors, but he confined himself solely to modern times. He thought the boroughs which *is intended to disfranchise, more peculiarly those by which gen tlemen of moderate fortune, of country lives, could obtain access to this house. He did not—u had been stated —allude entirely to local interests, they afforded access to gentlemen who tumid be precluded by the operation of this Bill—( Hear, hear, hear.) Ile could not think his view of the subject was entirely without ground. There was an argument of the Noble Lord's that struck him as very sin gular. The Noble Lord took occasion to obverse that it was satisfavory to this House to know tlta no less measure than this would do, because it was char Ministers were bound by a specific pledge. He should oppose the Bill firmly, honestly, and openly in all its stages, and in every pan of it. He gave it his most uncompromising opposition. lie concluded by moving, as an amendment, that the Bill be read a second time this day sir months. Mr. F. CLINTON seconded the amendment. Many of those non elected were chosen under a pledge—could any thing be more subversive of the character of a deliberative assembly ? He apprehended that they were sent there not to record the opinions of their constituents—but to I exercise their judgments, and to consider the interests of the people at large. ( Loud cheers.) If the contrary were the fact, what was their situations ? last Session the pe titions on slavery were twenty to one asconipared with those , for reform. Those who knew the subject, knew the (Meshy ! of coin plying with such prayer; but if they had echoed the 1 voice of the people nothing would have been more contrary to justice and humanity. (Hear.) He maintained dint the I present House of Commons—the house as now constituted— was best calculated to support all the interests of the people. The bill would destroy such characteristic; and nothing could cereal the absurdity of the representation that the bill was in reality aristocratic. It was the very opposite. There were people out of doors who supported it because they considie.d that the bill would bring them nearer to the object they aught ; that was manifest. It would give half a million of additional voters, which would make four times as many as there were in France. Safer from considering the bill to be aristocratic, be could not but consider that its tendency was to endanger the privileges of the Lords. If the house were to be the express image of the people, and the people the source of all power--where would be the use of the Hones of Lords ?—(Cheers.) If the contest arose between the two, h was easy to see that the House of lards must go to the walL He considered that the bill was full of sno malies, small places having two members, while large places were to have only one member. Would not that lead to future claims, and naturally enough ? (Hear, hear.) Those anomalies would arise in every county. He then noticed the state of borough representation in former times. Many had petitioned to be excused from re turning members, amongst them Liverpool, on account of its be ng " poor and decayed:" but he apprehended that all places, having once bad writs, were entitled to them, and which no length of time could destroy. The right was In destructible. The house had grown up with the wawa Si the people—and he considered that the country had it enjoyed the greatest prosperity and happiness; sad he he one would not consent to destroy the representation fee tie sake of theory. (Cheers.) On the motion and amendment being put by the SPEAKItit. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said he was at a lose 'whether to begin by discussing the topics which had lash introduced by the boo. and learned gentleman who has pai• ceded him, and the hon. baronet who submitted the went, or whether he should commence with the gas emli am g ciples of the measure. He certainly should not follow Os hon. baronet in his journey to lilerthyr.Tydvill, to eats into the causes which induced the workmen to violate rs laws. The hon. baronet had complained of an undue in. fiuence on the part of government, to cause a public opinion in favour of reform. This was not the fact. The had expressed what their opinions on that measure re f e; the elections. It was one of the advantages of a free govern. meat that all the generous feelings and all the noble ups,. sions which belonged to human nature could be put isle. He would contend that it was perfectly constitutional to en. press on the hustings the opinions which had been Rim. Did Mr. Burke forbear to state to his eonstituents at Bristol the motives and grounds of his public coo. duct ? If he had gone round to canvass, and among his zealous friends any one wished to inquire what were hie views with respect to any particular measure, would it have been improper either to have such a question put or anagger. ed ? Certainly not. Then if it were allowable in privatekaad when canvassing, to put such a question to a candidate, and if It were allowable in the candidate to answer it, what was there to prevent a similar iuvestigation taking place on the hustings? Would the House desire to have a restraint put upon what passed between its members and their consti. mews . He apprehended that no such desire existed. What injury could flow from it ? With regard to opinions upon topics being declared to be fixed, he begged to ask whether many members of that house had not declared, over and over again, that they would oppose such a measure as the am under discussion in every way and in every shape? Had the parties who put the questions oa the hustings, et the parties who answered them, violated by it their owed tutional rights, or rather, be would say, their consti tutional duties? His Mel sty, in his most gracious speech from the Throne, had d that he had dissolved the late Parliament, for the purpose of ascertaining the sense I of the people "on the expediency of a Reform in the Re presentation ;"—(hear, hear, hear,)--and the people of England had replied to the appeal. He deprecated discus sion on foreign topics, whkh some honourable members lammed desirous of engaging in. Such a course of proceed. log, he was sure, was - likely to be attended with no benefi cial result. He should remain silent upon a subject which I be, as well as many hon. members, could not but view with great interest—the struggle of a great nation fur freedom. It had been asserted that the proceedings a. Paris, in July IMO, were owing to the people ;—that the people, in short, were the aggregate. Whose was the hand which opened the doors of capitation in Europe, but to shut which was past his power? Who attempted to stem the tide of popular liberty, he begged to ask ? The dangers to Europe did not arise from any democratic power, but from an attempt to establish a despotic and law less power, with a view of overturning the taste liberties of the people. That all who practised evil might suffer in justice, that all who practised delusion might experience de. ception, and that those wi o acted thus might experience that which had been fatal elsewline, from the same causes. He p:_ dly its.. .ing had a previous opportunity . understanding it. (Cheers; might, no doubt. possess Mier judges lissatrflsagledef, art, some itughter,) if he was as favourable to this mea. and a lesser power of determining what was tight MI tiles sure as he was against it, he should say, that for any niea. subjects than the hon. and kayoed gentleman ; but ha knew sure passed under such circumstances, a vast number of the of no delusion that had been practised by the Gomtnetent, upholders being precluded from exe rcising their own opi. or by any of its members, or by any of the candidates who mots, that it would be fatal to the principles of represents- had been returned to parliament to support the government. tiro government— (hear, hear, hear)—that the moment that He had heard of nothing but of riots in three or four towns, the bill passed it would cease to be a representative govern. which were to be deplored, and which be hoped would be cent, such as had been practised in the country for the last punished, but which, as he said before, were as dust in the century. (Laughter.) lie did not think that he was Laying balance, compared with the declaration of the national will. dawn any new doctrine, and to prove it he could refer to the Then it had been said—ungenerously no doubt, but by no authority of those who were far better judges than himself , or mea n s tru l y — t hat if this a pp eal now made to the violence of nialy members in that House. on so important a subject. He the people, before they were allowed to share in the elective alluded to the authority of blt. Burke, at a time when he franchise, were powerful, what would that be when the fran as a staunch Whig, when he was actually one of the party, chine should be granted ; but we would ask, was this a true nay, one of the leaders of a Government, similar to the pre- or a fair mode of reasoning ? Was it not in fact entirely sent. He alluded to the speech which that honoutablegen. begging the question? Wash not true that when the peo tleitian made at the election for Bristol, shortly after which plc had a legal vent for the expression of their feelings, be changed his sentiments upon politics. But the pledges they would be less likely to resort to violence, than when have not been the only effects of the recent elections. He they were shut out from that legal mode ? Had not every erne added, front those on whom he could place great reliance, heard that the liberty of expressing their wishes. sod of that in many instances the excitement which had taken voting, would serve the useful °Bite of a safety valve, place on the subject of Reform had led- In various districts which would prevent expiation' by permitting strong to riot and disturbance. This was one specimen of the de- feelings to escape? (Hear.) He did not wish to enter mocratic influence which was ready to snatch at every thing upon the delicate question raised by the boa gentleman to gainsay the laws, and by the present bill that influence with respect to the Crown, and the Lords, when the hen. would be in a degree extended. He need only allude to the gentleman said that the Crown and the Lords, or rather, in his own opinion, the Lords, for th e giog was o u t o f th e or the soos of indeed families in the neighbouthood ; and question—that the Lords w o u ld h a ve no se c u rity f ar thei r then candidates vete not bnlught from a distance. Th e station in the constitution, nape by the Influence they now =wig was thrli li • dint — ihed 'by contests , and wow' neatly, althougr . _,niViil.beeriong, yet these base prate exercised over diction* to this imuse. which. as the hen . Pp . e down truly said, was i neorrec tly asser t e d t o be cou t ea di u . I•S were ism int , 'Whicleditheuted all minds from the key to the theory of the Coostitution. He (Sir J. Id ywould Constitutive; while't 'arum gesdually became debased, only say that t hi s i n fl uence was emera di cter y to w h at was the Engliiit people indium more curious and enlightened. of mare value than any theory, vis,—not only the direst That main. hean am ' aance " late l they were more in' letter of one law,' but of laws innumadde. (Hear, hear.) termed la the nature di °hada "' and consequently mine If the hon. gent l ema n con fi ne d hi mse lf to t h eor y, h e shocked at the scenes they liiresseted. His hon. friend, the (Mk J. 31.) would not raise bin voice ; but the hon. gentle. member for Oxford, had said in the last parliament that this lIWM seemed to say that this was a mistaken ides, would be a transient agitation; that all other agitations bad Vit only referred to the ekedons of Members to Podia. been but transient ; and he bad certainly taken en entreat ment, for Peers could only exercise this influence properly tinny gamic of proving this . He said that a d '''' °ur had been as great proprietors —( lou d cheer. f rom t h e o ppos i t i on s id e .) Wed. He should here interpolate two words, by " those in. He woubi wish gentlemen to analyse the feelings which led cendiszies," Lord Chatham, Sir C. .Sav ille, and Mr. Burke, and to these cheers, when they might probably find that their after_ _.__reoding a Paaral-'e from kir.llurke's powerful pamph let, exultation a s It was w i t h out judgment , so i t wo od not b e 0 , wain= or t h e Omits of th e presort Discontent, " he t. But his theory was that, even when the present said, that,sitee all, these agitations had subsided. But the =Bill was carried, t h e t h ree parts o f t h e c onst i tut i on , next sentence uttered by my 'made friend was a confutation would continue as they were at present. in conformity with of his former m acrtimi, Tft he said it bad a g ain arisen in ten I the laws now recognised and acknowledged. Supposing that ram from that time, in 1 7 80 ; Mehl In 171 1 2, 1 7 8 8 e 17 0 7 . Iwe should still have Democracy tempered with Monarchy t 797, and so on occasionally, until now. finally, in 1830. So and Aristocracy—and such was the Constitution now in con- that Instead of looking upon these agitations as Wa d ban ' I fortuity with the Revolution of 1688.—at all events Monarchy dent, they should be considered merely as symptoms of a and Avistoeracy were then thought useful parts, and bethought confirmed disease which may he emnetimes repressed, but to still ;nor did he see any thing in the present bill tolerant which are sure always to return, and et lest Wm° to a fatal the lawful tights sod powers of these holies. The next part terminatirm. Then "ell great tvent that occurred—every of the hon. and learned gentleman's argument be could not Mr that took Paces every manmade " "Teed ' and eery enter upon, lest he might displease the honourable baronet, loss, no matter trom what cause, furthered this feeling, and and he, therefore, should not follow his hon. friend into the People of England referred all to one great cause, the antiquarian researe h , or the hi story o f t h e const i tut i on i n inequality of the representadon.—(Hear.) In such a case, the times of the Tudors. On one point, however, he must what were we to inter but that tom complaints were et. ay that his honourable friend was mistaken, if he stated tooted be the disease, and that consisted in leaving us always that they were the fi rst to lay down the principle in this liable to be disturixel, and disturbed by there events which house that, by taking away the franchise from small bo. were most liable to recurrence. That wee tine most dreadful roughs, and b es t ow i ng i t upon ot h ers which were capa bl e o f disorder to which a community could be subject, and they more properly exercising it, they were only renewing the were called to look what it was that made t• community ancient practice of the Constitution. Would the hon. and liable to it. He was sovry to trespass on the House, aware learned gentleman have said this, if he had read the able he had aftesdy,yethaps, occupied them too long. but bevel permit him , to wake a few ob. speech of Mr. Pia in lre e tun Pitt aid t h at ts hi s p u n e anxious, if the House would was to buy up the smaller boroughs. (Cheers from the Oppo. "Iv_ s__,tions.,,,(lter.) badkle "MIL° remind 1' .. ,."n - tim c A l it shim.) Agaitethe hon. gentlemen would find their exults- the ot ter mac of what fall en f rom one s" t he abl es t c". tion prentature • and he foresaw this cheer when this passage Mr. Pitt, it was true, proposed to buy up vocates—or ranee, be should ray, enemies of this measure, came to his mind. Mr. Henry Drummond, in full late address, which wan 41110 36 boroughs. It was also true of the late hon. member for of the ablest he had ever heard. Ilebegg , ed gentlemen Mill men College companion and friend—but the in. listen to one sentence which was this •...., The declaation'of dependent friend of Mr. Pitt, that he supported this reform, the late.,k/tnistrY against reform had driven the PeoPle to but deprecated the payment of money. lie condemned any uestraire This was the judgment pronounced OU the agitation thing like this vile traffic—not like those who have taken upon of te people—pronounced by one of the ablest opponents of t h emse l ves th e o ffic e o f „mooing corporations at present— this measure. It bad also been said, "We know the power of not poor corporations, as they might well be called if they the people to be very Peat ; that the press has given the accepted bonuses for the nominations of Members to Podia. people a vast power ; end that they an do very much, al iment. No, he had said that before they had dealt in ntail— though they have not the legal influence they perhaps ought; and this would be to deal in the gross, that there could be no and that thus they have en influence on ele ct ions smut com p ensat i on f or any t hi ng of t h i s kind. What was Mr . than in many countries where they have power of choice." Pitts answer—" that he acknowledged it was a tender part, This be thought the most perilous state in which a civil sod he wished it could be otherwise ; but it was a necessary community could be placed—(loud cries of " hear) in one WV lie did not say it was a good, or a duty, or an ant of w ay allowing the people to Penes the power attendant justice, to name this cumpenhation. So great a master of the upon property and intelligence, and at the same time propriety of language as lilt. Pitt was would never have exasperating them by depriving them of their rights.— called that a duty which was now contended to be one. The (Hear, hest' hear.) His maxim would be to attach to the bribe it was that he called the necessary evil, but he was will. stitudon by legal ties all those who were possessed kg to pay it. Now to come to the constitutional history. of great power ; and the system that would exasperate the What had been said on the occasion to which he had People, by conferring power, and at the same time preventing alluded ? That many changes had taken place in our its influence, was at variance with h ad ( ' and in the highest supresentative system up to the time of Charles. That era" dangerous. When he saw a body rising in wealth , then many boroughs had been found fit to be restored, intelligence, he would do as our ancestors did, however 'UM others to be kept down; but he would say that, con- rudely , and immediately attach that body to the State. if the ddering the confirmation of the former and the suspension ProPlehad great influence over the State, that would be with of the l a tt e r, t h e s pi r i t of the Constitution wou ld h ave MU) a MOOR to bind them to it by ties formal as well as sub been grossly violated, if it were true. as he denied, " that Mantis/. He would now come to an objection urged by the the extension of the franchise to one set of boroughs and Hon. and Learned Gentians which was the same asthat their resumption from others were breeches of the Con. 9rgsti by the Hon. alembus dor Aldborougb end Borough. stitution." Thus Mr. Pitt was an authority with the pre. oc. His Hon. and Lamed Friend (Sir C. Wetherell) sent measure, though as an authority he would not quote had repeated the words casgenvion robbers so often and so him nor give his statements, save as those of a great and sonorously, that he saw no necessity to remind any member able man. He could not conceive it possible to doubt the of the last Parlbonsat hew often net. Stephen's tfttpd had fact that such was a mode to revive the ancient principles of reso u nded with that Phreloa__„ . 11 °_,,wmt„_id ask th_li,st who.. the Constitution. Again, for fear of annoying the classical cumwmer wellrrww ri ses "„°‘""°"'„,„ "'• '' ears of the hon. baronet ( Sir J. Walsh), he would not recur AM new to the elder tithe two 1 "mr w" yam to the times of the Plantagenet', but be would refer to what !whim fa nd___lll 18—that Is, each was to la the p art of W lidien from the hon. and learned gentleman ( Mr. F. Ito our value. If it were eislandia gibber, to take away tiliese), who had contended that up to the time of the a fraueldre. sorely It most she be an invasion to take away liewsk case, in Charles the Second's time, there could b e 4.4kbs debit power. He should not quote the case of the Moisteht of the unquestionable rights of a great number of WA low telies ; it bed not received an answer nor boroughs; and yet no one could doubt now that there were could betve it; but he would ea disunion wit h I re. Medlar boroughs and one city (Illy) which had formerly hod._ ._____.A Reuse of Con° lollo ,_ , of NO ,mslabe.2T bad gettemed member and now sent none. How would it be boo rommoSe 10 0 . One ="rma i'm •°°! f „"'" peals for them sow to substantiate their claim ? He did drooddosde ape *Poo the Iwindrissidgormodso asktroooll est believe thin the rigour of a Court of law "cold permit to the pees corporations, but of mossy poll to the bouswoM them ; and that it would be presumed that satisfaction had meager and ProPrietors who led roselved Pod 1 . 1110 bum mode' to them from the long lapse of time without a of many by this base trate t and if MN. Ring were deka begins been weed. But this he did not 'require for not more than ordinarily Woo, hod also l'oculand other ad. Ms one aid, it was only to support the view taken by Mr. vantages which it ought to be still more tto every fig, and may also as f ar as t he p l an of Mr. Pitt exact ly hooourable principle thus to barter for. ["nWa, then, the esiniiisi with the schedules A and Bof the present bill, for euinction of frao -e worked by these unions, or thou con. , they a l ly we nt to effect a rev i va l o f the ancient ree k e d d m . templated by Mr. Pitt in 1785, were corperatlen mastics, Consthution. On the other hand, to consider the principle none are committ a l b' the Present bill. 1 * tho Iho' of the law as to infranchisonent, Mr. Pitt had given the argu. Place, he was su rprisedto best the term iktiondiesnamt meat at the other side a just answer, which was this s- 1, That I: c f . :radius red as it hod been by kb Yom. al the alteration which had taken plac e not been made on any • friend- t was to be supposed that be must have principle, but rested on the ground that principal places and meant by this the depriving them of the power of elute I m et p ett y boroughs s h ou ld have t h e power to send mem b em int members to Parkinson, for corporations could exist to Pull:meet. it was a vague, and general, and irate. without this, and possessed other franchises that wen net lee rule; and if Boston were an exception, he would eay to be interfered with. On this Find*, to take away that with that exception there was a town of the second flank any other franchise might be called borough robbery. in England omitted. Any one who reflected for a moment ' fhe term even as applied to what were called guilty be. would ace that all the towns next to London in size and po. roughs was incorrect, for a borough or a corporation coed pule ion had returned members. It was only those whose not be 'lathy, Individuals only could- On this principle caw j . _ greatness was of modern growth that had been omitted.— thing that had been done by the House of Commons in two On the occasion he alluded to it was to change transfer of the elective franchise could only be tharactakell eighty members, and to make an addition to those of as acts of lawless tyranny; nor could they be justified London; and it was remarkable that it had been except on the ground they bad been done. viz. as Acts of said in that debate that *bete were 10,000 electors the suPrene Government to take away privileges from then sprung up in tiary•la•bonne who were unrepresented; so who abused them, and bestow them upon those who tnat as to the metropolis, the idea in the present Bill was would use them honestly. A borough or a corporals by no means new. When the principle of the unlimited could not be brought to trial, but the Legishtuse exercise of,the Crown's prerogative, as to summoning had the right to judge where this duty would be bed towns, ceased in the case of Newark, it would have then performed. and there to bestow the right to exercise its been easy to have adopted the principle of reform which so it was with respect to Ireland.. If it were whips would have been permanent, and preserved the quality of the wise, why in these cases should persons unborn be illa , representation punt. If it had been agreed that every town prived of their dens? Theo as to throwing open some if with a certain number of houses should be entitled to a them; suppose a corporation consisting of 10 or 15 pores% summons, and when it came below that number should net, that of Bath, for instance? what compliment wadi you he thought the whole principle of reform would have been pay such a small minority by merely allowing diem to vote gained. Why then were they told now that they went too for the town In which they resided ? In speaking of far, or too quick ? For, in the first place, gentlemen would the Union with Scotland, it had been said the numbers perceive that they only followed the princip l es of the coned. were Sled unalterably, but that did not appear to he tution ; and Stdiy, they folkwed the example of every late the case • but at that time if the ancient prerogative of reformer, who had proposed any alteration worthy of the the Crow nr had been dis.used, it was not because of name; and he would say that the principle of the five ache. its having been at an end. but because thirty years had dubs of the resent bill was as distinctly included in Mr. elapsed between the Newark case, which had been at. Pint's plan of 1786 as in the bill now before the House, and tended with various delays and trouble, and the time of that it would be impusible to form any system which would the Union; because the people were jealous, and would combine purity and extension without it—that is to say, of no longer beer such a power to be vested in the withdrawing political power from those who abused tt, and Crown. But it was because DO molar principle had bees of conferring it upon abase who would exercise It honestly ; substituted for the ends. Oils mown, that the for, here the question not being that a a government by vie reedietris devisee et sommkedso had remained presaiption, they would not lose one iota of it. What was for 100 years in abeyance. We mould on now to pay up sis meant a government of prescription he did not know; if this heavy balance, and this arreir. These 160 years it meant ow that had existed for many centuries, be ear. had bus a podgi el greas er thin the three hon. taint y could understand it; but if it meant a government dad that mufti them. however had, in her that had existed time out of mind without any change, he reign of di wild II memben to the home. The To. certilnly could not understand that of the British govern- does in all hodaddsilig. Rom theacceesked Henry VIIL aunt, which had been one of constant changeo with to the mention of the eve in the ease d Newark, 200 reference to a certain principle. But then he should be asked, membat had hoes f the principle he had mentioned " How do you make out the practical expediency of the pre- were that gmlisti. shim would now brave been no necessity sent measure ?—what is the practical evil which creates the for this bill; and t he disregard evioced in the Destiny for this change—it works well?" (A laugh.).... last century for midi reincipks, the debt we If he knew any thing of the British constitution, to the were now mild on to pay had been ineund. It hal also study of which he had devoted most part of his liifee, been said, that if these boroughs were taken from their pro. and if, following a great man, he were asked why be wished pricier., no property would be safe. This doctrine was most for reform ? his answer would be, that he would reform the dangerous, and neither Mr. Owen, nor St. Simon, nor any constitution in order to preserve it. Further, he would say, other advocate of equalisation of property, had ever preach. that It had nut been in the 18th century the constitution ed a doctrine more dangerous dun that the right to ierto worked well, fot the foulness and fraud of the means where- perty was involved in such cases as those of Gauen and Old by it moved bed silently winked out of the hearts of the Sarum—(hear, bear.) Let gentlemen be warned, for the people all the regard they holier it ; they bad silently but abolition of those privileges we. at bend, and let them not powerfully taught the people to distrest rulers taken out of involve themselves by teaching to future spoilers the ice men so chosen as they had been. They saw the means ; trine that their property was no safer than these boroughs. they were not able to balance the possible advantage of the The right to seed members to parliament was a right whole against that which came before them of foul ant :to share in the government of men—could that ever be fraudulent, and if they could they ilki well to prefer property ?—(bear, bear.) The revolution of 1688 bed, be their feelings's( morality to the intricate waking" of even thought , already taught the low that legislators were not urgent expediency. They saw the bad, and the means proprietors but trustees. U man could be the Foray of were before their eyes; they came home to their bosoms, man—if a remnant of that plc could yet lurk is the and met them in their businesses in daily life; and it was no mind of any man, be at once seek out the heirs of wonder if their feelings gradually grew upon them until 1 the Howe of Stuart, who bed been driven from the thyme they turned into an entire disgust towards the whole system. for endeavouring to reduce It to practice. (Loud than.) It if this had any foundation, and it must, he would say that had been said by an hen. gentlemen that property was a the excellence of the British Constitution had contributed toll ,trust; so It was figuradvelr—lt was a moral but not a legal Its own destruction • for what except that could Wombs so ' trust awas answasbk to Goa fir its use, but he was T' ; man much disgust into tie minds of th e all that T, not aiswerable to the magistrate or the law If be did no was immoral and degrading, until it 1:24:,•=, under-114aq with it. This was the glikeenes, and the ease of mined that Constitution; for Englishmen were Dot capable ' i :a legislator could neva be more thou dist of a trust. );The ot living under degradation , and they could not beer the right ben. pada= thus wow se to amsess this ph. odious sights that were forced upon them. In the dple, i tz c i s me eth.modmika gam as szampliiisd slow advances were made by small degrees; for in be Lli tail l is t i t g g in the be swposumed, bet woo &edible rarely, and to the reigns of the Stuarts any one could see that in a ll then it wee fay to mminshwei Mm; Watt, the boroughs the tepreeentatives were country gentlemen, ' this was theme ibegondly *roughest his synch, which may account for the apparent want of connection in its members.) Under nob a system Of nomination borough s & gibe house alcsent was pardy constituted, the peopl e saw peons calling their representatives with whom they bad not the most remote connection, a fan or which they were convinced as well by sem se by words.—. They saw the boner constituted in so degraded and onrupt a mower, as at present, that they naturally lost their res. pat be it. (Hear, bear.) Under these cinumatances, h e sus Dog sere whet her the nomination of persons, so e t . ateMtv Mensected. if connection it could be called, with poilMitled electors. had not served more than any thing alma wean the people from their affections to the , House ef Onmermm. (Hear.) The nomination of members was as foul std 11111hy a practice as that of allowing the sale of votes ; both of thim worked great evil ; both of them worked ill for the Constitution, the previous excellent re• sults of which flow altogether from the just principles upon which It is based. But he was told by those who argued against the Bill that the schedules were so many down. right sets of positive injustice ; and others argued that the close boroughs were the most unexceptionable of the Constitution. He was told that by carry the Bill into effect they were about to deprive risk men, who bad the experience of the world to aid ; them, and the rising talent also of the country, from the poodbility of obtaining a seat in parliament. This state ment west a gnat dad too far. He recollected on as oc. casks when the disfranchisement of a corrupt Cornish borough was the subject of a discussion in that House, hear. in a greet tharamer of the day argue against the disfran. et a single biwougb, on the score that It took 4 away ass more of the twenty means already palmed by the mercantile lamest of obtaining seats in that House. The person from whom this observation arose was now no longer then, but be was the only consistent opponent of Reform. He maintained that the system of nomination was good, and that the House ought not to disfranchise any borough, whatever its offence might be, because 'there was not even then the means of keeping up the supply in that House of the blest Memhera. The ground kir opposing reform was certainly a most extraordinary one, and just for the sake of exemplifying it, he would go further and see what would re. suit from it. When the individuals supporting any such general interest as the mercantile or cokinial, were to b eco me so wealthy and numerous as they probably will, they would find themselves so much hampered by the small number of 4 saleable boroughs, that he and the house might expect to see a son of counter.reform. They would have petitions presented 'to them, complaining that the price of boroughs bad greatly risen in Suffolk that they were dearer than in Wiltshire, or elsewhere, A petitioner would come before them with a complaint that be could not order a Cornish bonmsb so comfortably as he could desire a waiter to bring lin a plat of claret at Wood's. But the worst of it was, that s :z punished those unfortunate wretches for what was, ing to their own doctrine a praisewor th y and conssermlaile act, by letting in members who were best quali _amend. Ing to their own statement, for those purposes for whili they were elected. This was not fair towards either may.-- Either the house ought to declare the purchased a mat la that House, and the practice of bribery. as lawful as the purchase of a pound of tea at a grocer's, or else to adopt and enforce the act already in existence, and put a stop to the possibility of such a practice for the future. (Hear.) , He did net know which of these two alternatives would be the optima of his Wearable and learned fiend, but one of the two be must cheese. (Hear.) He must confess that he had felt a erne doable &epee of surprise to hear, on a fewer °woke, a list read over of eminent persons a ho had sat in that house fel nomination boroughs. What did this prove, but that England had produced, and would con tinue to produce ?hefty of persons, who, by their talents and kerning, wee nth as would always be able to find access to that bettee—en aindedm which they now found through the ms at thi Mica bereoghe P (Hear.) What would be the swam of is Right Hoe. Baronet opposite, if the hew were met Wiles purpose of abolish. tag and the Sur Clamber? Would he not, on the sane that be had defended the rotten bo. roughs, rise and ewes bind, against any plan for die. wising that whisk the great Bacon had iodated to be one the most globes parts of the Casedtuiso ? Would be all upon them le eensider lees they abashed a Court where mock high and splandlid chsemens in Mosey as Sir Thanes laud, Lord Haw, Or Mired Clahe, dapple* patron at the law, Waklogbase, and politicians who were the mist and ineemeed of all the Bekaa worthies—al of them members of dtis great tribunal ? Would not the Bight His Daft. was. them, an the same priodple, to beware hew they touched a Ms* whisk lead been so tenanted ? (Hear.) Would be net dm nand et them, whether, in their rage, they would duarsy this peseleue tribunal—which hat been lewd se cane • visa mei sepowerful in- di of the Royal aratherity at the thee when & was se spay did in hiked t And when the Hasse of Commees wee about to saheb this peat origin et Kingly pew*, and to pad the people arpeinet its exercise for the fumes. wcast sin milt elist as sweats that had been Welled at the 11111 he Rehm have been equally appliedie at that jaueftwe ? But the same might be eel& et the • of Rebees throughout the shah tametia• of she lon. Thew Dever was a period et change in tali the same might not have We urged that were mew borough= At the time when the heaty Benue et hi dieted is that mow& the Magri Owe, It was an tentried Wass& It wen a windy ievel propeelime sow*/ the &miens and t re llriesslbsoll htlerssolic mil dithems; ea the who bad been in the sheaths of slavish villeinerto the Hares, tad to give them the power at maid% those laws by which they we • all in future to be governed. (Hear.) Might it not have been said to those Banes ; " Do you per mho the consequences of emancipating year feudal villains? De you ems" what the consequences will be if you arm those who hitherto have been your slaves with the power of eseM'ollingyve r And what does experience say ? The bon. and lemma member had himself famished the arp ment, end must, therefore, not be surprised at his (Ms J. Mackintosh's) availing himself of it. What, therdore, be might repeat, did experience answer is these supposed ob. jectioas to that great measure ? Why, this • that heed d those enfranchised villains becoming elated sod intoxicated with the enjoyment of the power that was confuted os them, they set themselves to mitigate the tyranny et their former opposes% and to blend themselves with them; from which a union that was in after ages destined to Wenn thNt only safeguard. (Hear, bear.)••• It was Dow well Mew what attended the Wroductiete by Lord Shaftesbury of the Habeas Comes Act. And what did not the private and familiar correspondence of that time acquaint them with? Were they Dot there *fumed that both Clerks the Second and James the Second de clared Lord Sbabsebury to have destroyed the GeWerti• man of the esesery arming the Hose of Commons with& power with del Greomenent ? Those Memerde iodised eat they aemilera the Sebum Corpse Act as likely in WI teeth the State allneeille, sad that the deems of each a law was ineenmedble with the easy et the State. The eoperienee of t so yeses had. however, Edified these antidpodems, and had proved that way Ise to be the greatest preservative of order, and et the prin elide! of the Ceseitudeo, of any on the Statme4seek. And yet be was not disposed to attribute any dhboseety to elder Charles IL or James 11. In the unmoor and support of those °Oise'. Far hem it. they believed—Gni it was ewe of the fatal effects of the pommies of absolute cower en them who possess it, to warp their jealousies ia the some way—that es other than absolute power can be ex• wised by a Naar& over those whom be sways his sore —(Hear.) The supra - ten of the Reform Bill were dseo asked by its empanels what evils they would receive by is enactment ? To this be would answer I. the words if the peat Bacon, "remove the matter of contempt," which, es that luminary observes, is of mach bun he the people's eyes. Remove, he would urge thee, the mockery of election as it was now practieed, and le away with the a b o minable sales of emu in their house. The time was not he digest when the feet that seats la that house had been Webb. would be looked upon to be dhhceourable as the ale of seats of Justice in Chancery were now considered to be. It was Dot emaidered, in former times, to be dipper:end to purchase justice ; but was it not a ressesable and a just eon. elusion, that if to buy or sell the power et judging of rem' peaty breaches of the law was looked upon now with feel ings"' indignation and abhorrence, bow much more guilty was that man who made a matter of bargain and sale of the right of making these 'ewe? They were about to sow the seeds of permanent discord, by refusing to mask thss which might be converted into a treaty of peace All who looked at it as a measure which it was desirable to carry into Abet, the great proprietors of boroughs, and others, were wady to convert it into a general sacri fice for the psi of all classes. Now there surely must be some ing god la that which produces so good a feeling. It wag 1.9110.161 that a meows should be bad, the print. pies of cocci *owed such an esedient tendency. Give , tbigabie tin pee* a prod of confidence, to the end that they aide repose in the House that power which was st to awe If by se signal and striking a het the Home proved itself willing to rely on the people, be was ,