Star. — London, England, 1822-03-05 00:00:00

ecentint of the disturbances in Wend. The total diminution then in this. year, as compared with the last, was 17,822 men, ,taking into calculation the rei duction of the Veteran Battalions, or leaving those out of 12,000, and of 557,000 t. in the expense. It should, however. be borne in mind that these reduca4 tions took place upon the first class of the Estimates, and that the Retired List would be necessarily in creased as the active service was reduced. It was, however, but fair to observe, that this reduction of 500,0901. deducted from 3,500,0001. voted for the active and retired service of last year, was a &Crease of full one-seventh. An allusion had been made to the Estimates sanctioned by the Finance Committee of 1817, as to the peace establishment of the Army. In their Report, they limited the whole expense of that department to 8,500,0001. including the Militia. To this were to be added certain pensions to the amount of 260,0001. which were expected to arise tipon the return of the Army from France, making_ altogether 8,760,0001. But the Committee would see that the Estimates of this year were considerably within .hat mark, for the total charge for the year was buf6,103,0681. exclusive of Extraordinaries. The charge for Extraordinaries was 900,0001. but an ar rangement was about to be adopted with the East India Company, by which they would be obliged to pay their shame of the expenses of recruiting the Regi ments in India, which would amount to 200,0001.= By this means, the charge directly tinder the head of Extraordinaries would be reduced to 700,0001. Then take for the Extraordinaries - X 700,000 To which add For Barracks in England Sirtlt for Ireland Commissariat for England Same for lrel, nd 121,000 122,800 234,000 109,000 Total 1,387,400 - 6,103,068 To which add charge for Ordinaries Grand Total for the Year 7,490,468 But deduct this from 8,760,0001. the sum voted by the Finance Committee in 1817, and the result would be a clear saving this year, as contrasted with that, of 1,269.5:321. Having now contrasted the Ordinaries cf the Array this year with those of last year, and the Extraordinaries with the same branch in 1817, perhaps the House would wish that he would state the particular reductions which had been made under the head of &tram dinaries,ascontrasted with last year. In tie Ordinaries, as before stated, there was a saving of In !.t. Commissariat (England) In !i:rr::cks (ditto) - (exclusive of the 200,0001 to be by :he East India Company) X 537,449 66,929 15,900 100,000 p:rmir.eta %wring lit:: :Lc Yeomanry which were put on duty uwing to the state of Ireland 40,000 720,278 Total saving as at present 760,278 But when the East ludic Company pay their share, add 200.000 And the whole saving in the Ordinaries and Extraor dinaries of the Army, as contrasted with last year, •rill be 960,278 Compared, then, with the vote of 1817, the saving of expense upon the whole, this year, was 1,269,5321. Compared with the votes of last year there was in the active service a reduction of 12,000 men, and of ex pense 537,000/. but contrasted with the votes of last year there was, upon the whole service of the Army, as the statements he had made would spew, a saving of 960,2781. or nearly a million sterling—(Hear).— The Noble Lord concluded by moving a vote of 68,000 men for the present year. Colonel DAVIES considered the Noble Lord's statement very unsatisfactory. The country ex pected economy, but there was still the greatest pro lusion and waste observable in the charges for the Army for the year. In the reductions which were made, the list of Officers was almost untouched, be cause Ministers were unwilling to diminish their pa tronage. He differed from the Noble Lord as to the amount saved this year, contrasted with the last.— The charge for last year, exclusive of the expense of reducing certain corps, was Only £6,493,677 This year 6,019,892 Sum saved in fact £473,785 But this was £53,000 more than ought to be charged, for there were fifteen regiments of cavalry either on their way to, or returning from India. These, as they were charged to the East India Company, ought not to be charged in the Estimates. Deduct then this £53,00J, and the saving, in fact, would be but 1:420,000 as compared with last year; and this was considerably short of the million which the Noble Lord talked of. The Hon. Member then proceeded to comment upon other parts of the Noble Lord's speech. He contended that a reduction by regiments would he more economical than reducing by com panies. He would propose to increase the reduction of troops from 12,000 to 15,000 men. He would do away with the Staff Corps altogether. He would also reduce the Cavalry. He contended that the number of troops employed in the Colonies was too large. It was much too large compared with the number of troops kept up in 1792. A great saving might be effected by establishing a Colonial Militia. He would do away with the Waggon Train altoge ther, as perfectly useless. He also objected to keep ing up two Majors in each regiment. He suggested a mode by which great savings might be made in the recruiting service, if recruiting parties would report direct to their corps. The Hon. Member then proceeded to point out some other reductions, and concluded by moving, as an amendment, that the number of troops to be voted should be reduced to 65,502. The reductions were principally to be made in the Colonies. Lord PALMERSTON said Gentlemen opposite had changed their ground. Last Session they con tended that it was in the Home Service the greatest reductions could be made, but they now turned round, and objected to the force in the Co The Noble Lord then proceeded to point out that an in creased force was necessary in the Colonies. A great saving of expense was now effected, by dividing the count') into districts, and placing over each an In specting Field Officer, whose business was to prevent improper rect nits from being admitted into the army. In answer to what the Hon. Gentleman had said of pensions given to woonded Officers, he must tell him that scarcely a day passed over at this time without some fresh claim being made by such Officers, who had returned 'roil. foreign service. With regard to the expense of the Riding Establishment, he (Lord Palmerston) maintained that it was not too much, be- 'tore if i eoltinty Visa the men tibia befallen dent A diffeience *ode of riding la different •siecessery to envier species of Itistruction be possible than it *& Sir HU at the points in defended the milk his satisfaction Officers Mr. H predicament friends , nist.ets Alared their place. this change last had sty lonies was But what no dimn year and from 8] holies 1; cause 400 therefore 12,300. were adduced projects. in our coil only to being 2,300. being no , 68,000 last year for eittu The wh\ was 550. the esti' par i son Noble _ glee of the Noble Marquis (Condonderry) and neither of them with that of the Committee of Finance.— The Noble Lord had accused his Honourable Friends of being too prone to discontent, because, said he, they only asked a reduction of 10,000 men last year, and Ministers have reduced 12,800 wen, and still they are dissatisfied. Now, the Noble Lord should have done him (Mr. Hume) the justice to remember, that he had made a motion for the reduction of 20,000 men, and that he had been induced to with draw it only by the persuasion of his Hon. Friends, who thought that a motion for 10,000 men was more likely to meet with success. He proposed to reduce the existing force by 20,000 men, leaving the num ber of our Army at 60,000, which he thought suffi cient for every purpose of security or defence. He had formerly gone back to 1792, for a period of com• parison, and he could not help again pressing on the attention of the Committee the necessity of following the example then set us. At that- time, then, our military force, rank and file, was 36,363 men, and including Officers 45,000. Now, what was the re duced vote of this year ?-68,000, including 8000 Officers. We had then 36,000 rank and file. We had now 60,000. The. Marine Corps then amounted to 8000. Now it amounted to 15,000. The Noble Marquis (Londonderry) had lately stated, that this Corps was employed as a land force, and, conse quently, might be added to the land force when comparing the numbers of the Army at different pe riods. Here, therefore, was an addition to our Army of 7000 men over the Marine Corps of 1792. This was surely too much. We had nine or ten re giments locked up in the lonian Islands, which, with a better government of these islands, might be with drawn. We had 12,000 men in the new colonies, a great portion of which might be reduced. In reckon ing our military force at home, the militia, the con stitutional force of the- country, had been strangely overlooked by the Noble Lord. That forceamounted to 63,000 men, and, together with the volunteers, cost the Public between 500,0001. and 600,0001. per annum, sufficient for the pay of the rank and file of our army in 1792, exclusive of Ireland. The militia, the volunteer corps, the marines, and the artillery, were all additions to our military establishment, and ought to enable us to reduce the regular force in proportion. These species of force were either useful or they were not: if they were, they ought to supply, as far as they went, the place of other troops; if they were not, then why incur an expense of half a mil lion a year for their pay ? All these troops, there fore, were to be added to the force of the regular army. And what was there in the circumstances of the country different from 1792 to render such a military establishment necessary? With the excep tion of the disturbances in Ireland, which had no po litical character, and could not be termed an insur rection, though attended with great cruelties and atrocities, he knew nothing. The disturbances of Ireland were then of a temporary nature, and three thousand men were quite sufficient. There were thus sixty thousand rank and file, instead of thirty-six thousand, which would be sufficient for all purpose. There was room for a reduction of 20,000 men t in stead of 3,300. The latter reduction was quite inade quate. A much more effectual reduction was re- 1 quired, and before he should sit down he would move a reduction of more men, by which a sum exceeding half a million sterling would be saved, and that was a saving not to be despised in the present state of the country. In 1792, the life, horse, and foot guards, had been 7,500. Last year they were upwards of 17,000 men. Here was a surplus of 10,000 men.- 1 Last year the Noble Lord had argued, that a large disposeable force was required for the purpose of re lief. This year the word relief never escaped him. Every one of the cavalry in the guards, was equal in expense to a junior clerk. With a view to economy, he would say that the Government had discharged too many junior clerks. They should rather dispense with a few of the cavalry. The latter were for mere parade and splendour about the Monarch. The guards were placed as sentries in this place and that place—at the West India Docks, and at the British Institution in Pall-mall. Ministers would have troops to protect the arts and sciences, though they were rather ruined by military protection.---. He would then, upon the whole number, propose a were the better. It was, no doubt, painful to break up old corps, but the Duke of York had in 1796 re duced 110 regiments to 94. If in time of war such a reduction in the number of regiments took place, was it proper to have 94 regiments now ? The Ame ricans had reduced their army altogether, and were husbanding their resources. Why, then, shculd we have five or six thousand men in Canada? He there fore moved, that 58,802 be substituted for 68,802 men. Colonel WOOD contended that the Militia and Yeomanry had no bands, and only one drummer for every two companies; the Hon. Gentleman had spoken of a little riot going on in Ireland, for his part he should be very sorry to see such a little riot going on in the country to which he belonged. The object of keeping up skeleton regiments was, that the old soldiers should form the new ones. Sir J. NEWPORT said, he would not have risen to say anything upon this question, but for remarks made respecting the state of Ireland, in which he could not concur. His earliest wish had been to get an examination instituted into the state of Ireland, and a remedy applied to the evils which distressed that country. But there was a limit and a period to investigation as to other things, and Ireland was in that state when investigation could not be instituted, and when, not riot, but insurrection, required the strong arm of the law—(Cheers from the Ministerial side). It was impossible for him to regard as a riot ghat was an open insurrection, and a defiance of law and authority(Cheersfront the Ministerial side). The Government of Ireland had been most shamefully and scandalously deceived by men who ought to have had correct information. He alluded to the informa tion given respecting Belfast and Mountrath. But there had been most dreadful outrages committed, and horrid assassinations. A Roman Catholic Cler gyman had been attacked because he had from the altar recommended peace and good order. Could he doubt that this was a state requiring additional military force ?—(Cheers fr om the Ministerial side) — He :rusted it would pass away, but it would be by the vigorous execution of the law to put down vio lence. It would be imperious afterwards to look into the causes of the disturbances. Having always been the advocate of peace and examination, he was now obliged to say that harmony must be first re stored; and then he would urge a thorough, com plete, and radical investigation, and the application of a full, safe, and adequate remedy—( Hear, hear). General G A SCOIG N E would certainly vote against the proposed reduction. Hon. Members talked of the state in which our army had stood previous to the late war ; but let it be remembered that very heavy objections had been taken, upon the breaking out of that war, to the condition now so lauded. The very small force which England brought into the field had been a source of astonishment and of displeasure to her Allies. He (General Gascoigne) being on service in one of the brigades sent out upon that occasion, the brigade was so small, that an Austrian General actually took it for a battalion, and asked whether all the British battalions were of equal force? The Hon. and gallant Member they proceeded to notice Mr. Hume': observations upon the state of Ireland, and contended for the necessity of maintaining such a force as should have an eye to the northern as well as to the southern parts of that country. He concluded by declaring that the seeds of war existed in every part of Europe, and that appearances were such as to justify measures of precaution at least. Mr. WILMOT felt himself bound to protest against the expediency of farther military reduction. Before, however, he stated the reasons of his dissent from such a measure, he would make a few observations upon what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. With regard to the reduction already effected in the Colonies, the Hon. Member had itated . it as not exceeding 44)0 men. If the Hon. Member meant to persist in that assertion, he (Mr. Wilmot), could satisfy the House that a more monstrous asser tion had never been put forth ; for the reduction ac. tually effected in the Colonies amounted to between 4,000 and 5,000 men—(Hear).—Upon the Estimates , of the present year, article " Stations abroad, India excepted," the numerical force, Officers and non commissioned Officers included * stood at 27,945. The very same article, in the Estimates of last year, gave as the number of men, 32 1 467. N2w this reduction tunate a result in the old colonies, they might give Government some confidence for due management in the new. He (Mr. Wilmot) did trust that Par liament would reject, and with disdain, the proposi tion of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen , -(Hear).— He did confess, that he felt annoyed when the House was accused of having insulted the country by its offers of reduction—(Cheers).—Mr. Burke had said; that the age of chivalry was past; the age of calcu lation had succeeded it ; but he (Mr. Wilmot) really thought that the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, in his love for calculation, forgot sometimes the true inte rest, as well as the dignity of his country. He could not think it possible that that Hon. Member wished that England should forfeit her rank and standing among the nations of Europe—that by reducing her power of resistance she should invite acts of ag- gression. Not to be prepared for defence was to in vite aggression ; evert in peace it became them to be prepared for war. He felt assured, that it was not for the honour and dignity of the country that such reductions should take place; and he, therefote, re lied that the Committee would reject the propositions. Mr. G. BENNET observed, that it now appeared re the Government that their expenditure must be reduced, er that the public credit must be violated. If the question ever arose what was required by the public interests, supposing the reduction of the expenditure would not relieve the country, he was prepared to say that they must diminish the interest of the Debt. But as yet the country was reduced to no suck sites don; the public interest did not require that they should vie late the public faith. He maintained that reductions might be 'made to afford the requisite relief; and he contended, that the diminutions were practicable. As to the proceedings r a ire s eul, he was not surprised at them • they were the result of bad laws badly administered. Every thing had been done to irritate and keep down that unhappy country ; nothing had been effected to ameliorate and console that part of the United King ' dom. Ile again submitted that 10,000 men could be spared ; and if it were not fur the situation of Ireland, he should not be satisfied with a reduction of less than 20,000 men—(Hear). Captain O'GRADY urged the necessity of coercive measures in Ireland ; the disturbances in that country could not be put down but by force. After the law 'should have been resestab fished, he thought the evils of the system of Government which prevailed in that part of the empire ought to undergo the strict est investigation. But although for these reasons he thought there should be no reduction in the number of men, he was persuaded a great saving might be made in the Staff. Mr. WARRE thought the amount of men reduced last year sufficient ; but in differing with his Hon. Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, he felt nothing like " disdain;' and thought that expression might have been spared on the other side of the House. Lord ALTHORPE agreed with the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury that 10,000 might be reduced with perfect safety to the country. Mr. CA LCRA FT was sorry to differ from his Noble Friend, bat he saw nothing in the state of affairs at the present moment to warrant a reduction beyond that voted last year. The Hoe. Member for Aberdeen spoke of the want of power in the coun try to pay troops; but surely no man, whatever his love of re. trenchment, could look fairly at the situation of England, and say that she could not pay the troops that were necessary to her security. Such an opinion was a desponding opinion—an opinion which exaggerated the distress of the country, and in which he (Mr. Caicraft) could not concur. The country not pay troops ! Why we had a Sinking Fund of £5,000,000. It was said— " Apply that fund to the reduction of the taxes ;""but surely the safety of the State was more important than the reduction of ,taxes. He by no means bound himself as to what he might do hereafter, when Ireland should be brought into a more tranquil state; but under existing circumstances, though loth to differ from some of his Honourable Friend*, he could not vote for the reduction contended for. The Honourable Member sat down by declaring that he approved of the manner in which the re ductions had so far effected the maintaining a number of skele tons rather than a few full Regiments. Sir HENRY HARDINGE maintained that the true prim: ciple of redpetion was to keep up in time of peace a nursery for the exigencies of war. The Hun. Gentleman then proceeded to answer some of the observations of the Hon. Member for Li merick, and insisted upon the impolicy of weakening the Wag- gon Train, as being one of those corps which it was most dill: cult to restore to an efficient state. He concluded with stating kis intention to vote against the Amendment. Sir R. FERGUSSON was anxious, as a military man, to state /As reasons for voting for the Amendment. Ile was not one of tbsse who desired to make any reduction of the military force Zryed in Ireland. On the contrary, he was of opinion that gular force was very properly substituted for the Yeo manry and Volunteers: who were too often under the inflamed of local animosities. In these times, however, when a huge portion of the population, and in particular the agricultural in. teresr, was reduced to the lowest ebb of distress, it was Imes nary to regulate our expenditure by our Income, and he was therefore determined, upon economical grounds to support the Amendment of the lion. Member for Aberdeen. In allusion to what had been said during the course of the debate with rupees to our colonies, be would observe that if our colonial possuisas could nut be maintained without causirg great expense.te die country, they ought to be given up altogether. The gallery was t h e n e.eared for a division—For• modest, WI; for the amendment, 51; Majority, 141 A second divldou took place on Colonel Davies 'I • I ,i .. . ... . . • r • , . . , , , N * .; .. • . , ' . J ai 'r W the eettetle Witt to have an efiehmit eaVatlt IbittietilliVit4bliblai 'Phial *both is - eiii f terlit_ flatteal4 is ** iii-• ' . - ~--- on me beteught to ride by pastels of KM* TedVadealliele / th• lilt tiro Yeats' at oply IMO Ili th at GOshildsne oat imsaW to thi'llifilps l . kill 6 - -A OM difference had aimed in the it bee ; fr. 1100161111111141 kW bahliatillisl sestina* to lie dons . of PArliament): II fedettjan ale stande. WO of riding hi different regiments, end it eras now taken iota adeelint as a reactions When ii rkhe' then. The very ice, hesomp, er ti* l o t n e neion . 111 7 to maple, riding-masters to give one uni- itat keetaked bt leery class is the 'Comintialty,- shit eheeld be stated to the Housei In the Old Leeward pecies of Id *ruction to all. It Would, how- was - surely iot too great a reduction in Aitnii,4 l Islands there had beeq a link e d& af 370; in . Arne: * possible Still to reduce this eepeitie lower 43vsides tbelffirectsaVing which would *lse freibthPs tic* and Honduras, 513; in North America, including t Wits at present. reductioN'there *kid be a collateral saving by real Canada and the Bermudas, 869 ; at Gibreltart 524 ; HUSSEY VIVIAN e e r is un d his nat ia nt i o n dering the teetriviiitgant Staff which was now kept up in the New Leeward Islands. 208; di the Cape, 228; • . 1 proposed redaction, and answered several unnecessery. The increased number of troops wai at tAe Mauritius, 192; at St. H e l ena , 1,492 ; a n d at ' i in the speed of Colonel Davies. Heparticularly the reason aseigpeCi for the extravagant Staff; and; Ceylon; 1,034 ; in New South Wales ther e was ad .? • led the maintenance of the Waggon Train, and therefore, when the number of Men should be re- increase of 153 ; in Africa, SO; and in Malta and the ill lity of the Riding Establishment, and expressed duced, the Staff, zoo, could be reduted. It was cal- lonian Islands, 625: but the saving, he re p e a te d, upon isfaction at the change in favoqr - of General culated that 33 , 000 1. were required for every 1000 the whole alterations, amounted to nearly 4,200 men: .1 on regimental half-pay. men. Every 10,000 men would, therefore, cost So much, then, for the question of reductioneffected ; HUME began by pointing out the enrious 930,0001. There would also be a large saving in and now to the question of Further redaction pro.; , ament in which the gallant Officer and his Contingencies, Extraordinaries, and Home Staff.— posed. If the fltmlurable and gallant Meddier wbd •• • stood, who last year had supported the. Mi-. Altogether the saving from a reduction of 10.000 had alluded to the state of e Cape would look td in condemning reduction, and this year de- men would amount to 500,00 W. The Noble Lo r d the. character of the. population of that settlement, • their satisfaction that such reduction had taken said the farces in the colonies were below the number and to the nature of the predatory hordes by which What was the region on which they justified in 1792 already. Now he found a statement signed it 'was surrounded, he would scarcely think-the awn; ~. 1 tense? The Hon. Gentleman who had spoken "'Palmerston," and dated February 16, 1816, which ber of troops at.present maintained too great; With, ..1 A stated that the diminution of force in the co- stated the forces in the colonies at 13,502 men.— respect to Ceylon, considering the immense area of was the cause which admitted of this reduction. The Noble Lord stated them now at 14,000 men. that country, its recent subjugation ) and the reduce- hat was the fact? Why, them had been almost A reduction of 10,000 could be made, and yet the tion already effected, both of regular and local force; ninutioa of force in the colonies between this Marines, Artillery, Yeomanry, and Militia, would it was impossible to think of farther alteration with- . i nd last, and yet our army was to be reduced be left quite effective, and the country would still out endangering the security of our possession: hid 31,000 to 68,000 men. The forces in the co- have a superior military f orce to 1792—(H ear ).— i ncreas e o f f orce i n M a l ta an d t h e l on i an Islands heist last year were 28,900, and this 27,900 ; and be- In 1817 the Noble Lord had stated before the Finance been ascribed to the operation of a certain course bf 400 men had been spared from the colonies, Committee, that by brigading the men to the number policy. The time would come, and at no very clis. sre the Army might with safety be reduced of 800 instead of 400, as in 1792, a saving of - 71,0001. cant period, when that subject would be fully and I. Thus inconsistent were the reasons which had been made in every 8000 men. The Noble Lord openly investigated; and it would not be proper for Ldduced to justify an adherence to Ministerial had argued that, by this change, as much had been him (Mr. Wilmot) .to introduce it into discussion ts. The difference between the number of troops gained in expense as the additional pay had increased upon the present occasion; thus much, however, even colonies last year and this, which amounted the expense, which was 84,0001. (or 8000 men. How now, he would say, there was no subject OR which o 4 , 00 men, was to be stated is a ground for could the Noble Lord reconcile this alleged saving the Public had been more extensively deluded—he i satisfied with reduction to the amount of with the plan of saving which he now proposed, by might add, systematically deluded—(Hear, hear!)—: . ~. i 1. He (Mr. flume) allowed that the reason for reducing the number again t 0.550? Why should Confining himself, however, to the colonies simply; :$: now satisfied with a military establishment of not. 1000 men be the number at home, as it was he had shown the House that the calculations of the • 1 men was as good as that for being satisfied abroad, and in India ? By this means the whole Honourable Member for Aberdeen were upon a wrong I rar with 81,000—that is, there was no reason amount of the additional Staff would be saved. Last principle; and Ire defied that Hon. Member to cow. .. ter, in the state of the colonies or the empire. year the Staff had been 660,0001. This was a loss of tradict his statement. When it was seen that the old 1.. hole of the saving on the vote before the House 200,0001. They would lose now nearly 200,0001. more. colonies were even at a lower establishment than in . I iO,OOO/. He (Mr. Hume) did not know how The reduction was therefore made in the most expen. the beginning of 1792—an establishment which, if imates were made out which formed the coin. sive way. The amount of regimental guards, too, he consistent with security, was. not consistent with the i'. I between 1817 and the present year. The supposed, was not affected by 400 men instead of 800. comfort of the troops. for complaints were heavy as Lord's (Palmerston's) did not agree with that Therefore, in this view, the fewer Regiments there to the hardship of duty—when the House , saw so for- • f i ' Kull.Mr,ll•ArliC IT _rmAnrkrlaw..ol ortA no;thar tvPro thp hPitar It woe nn Annist nftirtfill tea kraal.. tomato* 0 racial. in the old enlnnipe thPir rnioht CI;VO. Fee the itiginal I " ‘ eis alliniabilit ' . A