Star. — London, England, 1821-02-14 00:00:00

~,'4! .i _„,er t o Omit:aartiei as ditty pleased , . according to r - : - .ance or prejudice, but were to change the names fill DP the blanks as fitted to the occasions. It so d • a su bterfuge to say that the Queen was prayed jp ;i„ she Prayer for the Royal Family. The Queen c ort must be prayed for by name ; and if the Act ; of did not distinctly point that out, usage cer itilly did. The non-conspliance of the present Ad- 1 r i s urration with this usage, was inflicting a punish for which, which, to the People at large, appeared very voc h like vindictive feeling on_ their part—(Hear, ).--The People were convinced that this act lithe s uggestion of disappointed men. It pro ceded from a contempt for the feelings and the in oleo of the country, for its morals and its religion, A d for all judicial authority—(Hear, hear, hear).—.' , g g y bad now only to consider what compensation t hey could make for sufftrings which they were l osa il to consider were unjostly inflicted. If the Mi i;isoss persisted in refusing to restore the Queen'sl - w oo the Vturgy, it would be a pertinacity in certorwbkh could only insure to themselves dishonour yid defeat, as well as degradation to the dignity of t h e c r own. Let them appoach the Throne with their humble entreaties. The Ring had no doubt been tro sly:deceived ; and had the omission never been ; la de, her name certainly would not be erased at the poet moment. And if it would not, he asked by „kg course of reasoning, by what rhetoric, or what c h a in of casuistry could his Majesty's Ministers re concile the continuance of the omission? They had cn i ng ied political considerations and malignant pas sions with religious feelings—(Hear, hear).--He thought it ought to be no trifling consideration to risk e rn a temporary secession from the National o uc h; and it was something to risk the con inu• an ce of the present discontents. The whole country were looking to the vote of that night as to their only hope of retaining their grasp on the laws .and the Constitution. In voting for the motion of his Hon. Friend, he conceived he was discharging a sa cred duty which he owed to the Public, to the Crown, and to that House. _ _ fifr.ll. LEGGE said, the grounds of his opposition to the present motion were the Queen's Letter to the King, and her Answers to Addresses—(Hear). He c oed not whether she excited the people of the coun try ender the denomination of her subjects" or not ; ices on the broad general tenour of her Answers slut be grounded his objection. It had been said al lowances o , ight to be made for the Queen's feelings ; h : wa s willing to admit that; but he could not grant erg this allowance could be extended to a series of publications tending to inspire hostility to every in ilitslion which was dear to the natives of this country vicar, leer). He could not agree that this allow ace should be extended to a Letter which reviled the sovereign, and strove to set the People in array againgTgliament—(Hear, hear). He could assure the Honourable Member who brought forward this notion, that if the Queen's name had been originally hunted in the Liturgy, those publications would be nfficient, in his opinion, to warrant its erasure— (llar,keer). Under these circumstances, he asserted lint the restoration of her Majesty's name would be repugnant to the wishes of the great majority of the Won; and carrying up an Address to the Crown, landed on this Resolution, would be an unauthoriz ale interference with the Royal prerogative, deroga tory to the digni:y of the Crown, and injurious to the test interests of the country—(lkar, heasc). Mr. C. W. WYNNE agreed in some things with the view of the question that had been so ably taken by the Member for Oxford, in a former debate. He lamented that no notification had been made to the Qom of the death of the late King, nor even of her we daughter—(Cheers). By the act of the Crown, Electress of Hanover had been inserted in the payers of the -Church, and the House of Commons lad thanked the Queen (Anne) for the insertion. He ras heartily glad that the opinion of the Judges had :ot been taken on a question that was to come before bat House. They were too much in the habit of considering that House as a- part of the Executive. Ile thought they (milt not to address the Crown, to confer on her Majesty a mark of grace and favour, ifterwhat had been proved against-her. They were id, that her Majesty had been acquitted; but it vas natural to have some doubt, if that which was a eater of grace and favour, were conferred upon her. The same was the case of the Duke of Cum *land, who, though nothing was proved against 'rim, yet was exempted from the grace and favour en to the other branches of the Royal Family. He bought that the omission took place legally ; and he id not think it proper to repair it now, especially er her endeavouring to bring into contempt every tution of the country—(hear, hear). Mr. WILBERFORCE rose, and was greeted by the House with loud cheers. The Honourable Gen tleman said, that if anything was capable of confirm leg his original impression as to the inexpediency of tbe investigatioe into her Majesty's conduct, it would lt a review of all the proceedings that had taken Place since his motion, founded on that conviction, made. However, it was now only for every t. tier to come forward, and declare his sentiments •n the important topics that presented themselves his consideration. He had not had an opportu the other night of expressing his opinions on the ject before the House; nor did he so much regret circumstance, since anything he bad to say d not better express his sentiments than the -• of his Honourable and Learned Friend below • But whatever might be his opinion now upon Particular topics, he could not but say, that looking upon the conduct of Ministers throughout this ardu uts business, he saw nothing in that conduct which, his opinion, called for the animadversion of the (louse—but that, on the contrary, having been placed It Circumstances of great difficulty, where they had •thiog but a choice of evils, they had, in his mind, sewed neither a want of integrity nor capacity to and overcome the pressure of their embarrassing situation. But he had now to consider, that a prac tical measure was proposed to him, and he was to tain the consequences which would follow from ' is decisions upon the one side or the other; and he Quid confess, that shad he to decide the legality of e queaion, he should have found, that as much of e Options uncertainty of the law belonged to Perhaps to any other legal question that 'as eve r propose d to the attention of Lawyers.— t W 45 true he had beard with admiration the els ' lent speech' of the Hon. Member for the City of rford • but, when he Cann to consider one or two', points, doubt t started up in his thind ; even yet kie could not say .that be had formed any firin opi nion upon the subject. But supposing the omission had been legal, and supposing that it had not the 1 . effect of prejudging her Majesty's case—yet it was quite a distinct thing to restore it again. And in the consideration of this proposition he was pressed by some difficulties. He could not view with appro bation the adoption, on the `part of her ,Majesty, of sentiments and declarations utterly inconsistent with her declarations in her first communication to that Muse, and, he would add, with any degree of re• spect for the institutions of the country. But whilst he noticed this distressing circumstance, he ought not to omit calling the attention of the House to the propriety of giving . her Majesty the benefit of many circumstances of mitigation. It was well known that she did not cpmpose these declarations herself—they were written for her by some persons who had ob tained an unfortunate ascendancy in her councils, and be was sure, over the voice too, of his Hon. and Learned Friends, the Legal Advisers of her Majesty. But whatever weight he gave to these matters, he did not still mean to alter or qualify his opinion, that these declarations were no less discreditable to her Majesty than they were injurious to the country. 111, however, he were asked, " Would you punish her Majesty for these offences?" he would answer, No— because he would not punish her for another's crime. He would say, however, that several of these publi cations were grossly libellous, and he wondered that they bad not been the subject of public prosecutions. But if they were thought worthy the animadversion of the law, let them be brought,into the Courts of Justice. But it was not for the Queen that they ought now to propose to themselves any particular measure, but for the sake of the country—(Near, hear).—He felt that the exclusion of her name from the Liturgy had the effect of rendering the bulk of the middling, and the well-meaning part of the lower classes, more open to the assaults and sechic lions of those bad men who were watching every op poltunity in order to bring about their own mis chievous ends. The People said, " we are persuaded that it is wrong to exclude her Majesty's name from the Liturgy, and everybody is of the same opinion, and why is it not restored ?" This was the question that they would naturally ask themselves; and it was easy to see that they would endeavour to ac count for the circumstance, by attributing it to the obstinacy of Ministers, seeing that they had declared their determination not to restore the name of her Majesty to the Liturgy—(Hear, hear, hear).— yhey knew that it was common with public men to make declarations, and pledge themselves to a parti cular line of policy for their future conduct. But he would take it upon him to say, that there never was an instance when it was less the duty, or ought to be less the feeling of Government, to make a binding declaration for their future guidance, than the pre sent—(Near, hear). Had the question been, indeed, one which involved many branches to be successively brought under the attention of the House, it would have been advisable, perhaps, for the Mihister to make a declaration of the principle by which he in tended to be bdund in the subsequent stages of the measures, for the purpose of giving the House an op portunity of understanding his views. But here was a question with respect to which the opinions ofsome of the greatest and honestest men in the country were divided, and upon which, therefore, it did not behove his Majesty's Ministers to pledge themselves so pre maturely. But it was natural for the People to say, under the circumstances in which, by the consent of Ministers, her Majesty was now placed, " Why is not her Majesty's name restored to the Liturgy, unless it be that Ministers have pledged tlaemselves that it shall not be restored ?"—(Hear, hear, hear !)..-H This was the view of the People t they would not cow cur with him, he fairly owned, in his opinion, the', expression of which he would venture to renew at the risk of drawing down upon him some ridicule, namely,' that her Majesty was substantially prayed tor in the general Prayer for the Royal Family. The People, he would candidly confess, did not concur with him in this notion ; but they declared that the exclusion of her name was an act deliberately aimed at her character. However, his opinion, he was sorry to say his singular opinion, remained unaltered, that she was substantially prayed for in the manner before described. But the People asked why she was ex cluded? "If she is bad, said they, " then it is still more desirable she should be prayed for, and to re store her name to the Liturgy." They considered, too, that the good or bad character, strictly speaking, of the Queen, ought not to influence the question.— They did not understand why she was to be punished in this particular way; and why, since she was re stored to other rights, she should not also obtain this. They would naturally ask, why not reduce her in come? why not inflict some other mark of disap probation upon her, rather than withhold that favour or right, or whatever else it was, which ought to be the last to be taken from her? But the continuance of this exclusion kept up a difference of opinion that agitated per petually the feelings of the country, and I introduced above all, political feelings into the Church, where they ought to find no entrance t but least of all, in such a manner as necessarily would engage the thoughts of men upon that particular day appropriated to the exclusive performance of sacred duties (near, hear), and whilst the heart ought to be indifferent to all vulgar contradictions, and thus begetting jars and strife where harmony and peace and love ought constantly to reign. Such was • the view of the People. He did not mean to say, that the insertion of her Majesty's name would prevent the developement of bad passions or the designs of bad men—for he believed that those who were de sirous of seizing any opportunity for the promotion of their own 'wicked attempts a ere not much Church frequenters. It was obvious that the People were not in the habit of making those nice constitutional distinctions which might occur in that House.— But it so happened, that they took a different view of this question from several in that House; and although he was not prepared to approve of their notions, yet he had no hesitation in declaring his belief, that if the King had any idea of the feelings of the people, l he would have considered it his glory to make a sacri fice, if there were any to make, to the wishes of his People. He confessed, therefore, that this was the consideration which operated upon his mind most strongly and powerfully. The recurrence to the sub ject every Sunday, would necessarily have the effect H of keeping up the irritation of the people's minds. lie , 4otdci not Mist attending, also, to a constueration thrown out by his Honorable Friend, of the danger that injury would be done to the Establishment. They ought, above all things, to be cautious of introducing any cause which might, b 1 possibility, be productive of injury to it.. Ah, he knew too well bow many dangers to religion lay that way! Oh! how many men were there in the country that wished to see the Establishment destroyed! and.why should that House do anything out of which any consequence would arise capable of furthering their malicious de signs? It had been generally said, that her Majesty was prayed for in the Methodist Chapels: and he (A!lr.• Wilberforce) could say, that, so tar as his own inquiries went, they rather confirmed the report.— The benefit of the Church ought then to be the ob ject of the deepest concern to the House and to the . Country, for he believed that it was the best chart. nel that could be desired for transmitting from age to age the pure faith of CHRIST, and its doctrines bad been sealed by the blood of some of its most glorious pillars—(Hear, lear).—Even the Dissenters derived advantages from its existence, for it preserved both the purity of their Ministers and their doctrine. He thought that true dignity, policy, and true mag nanimity, prescribed the course he was now recom- Mending to the House, and should they agree with Win, he was sure that Ministers would not be slow in adopting their opinions. He thought it was not fair or jut that the House s h ou ld f orm or act upon any opinion drawn from a consideration of the evidence, since it was not fairly brought before them, and espe cially since it was not regarded as an adequate ground for the passing of the Bill. No one was to suppose, that by conceding to this motion, he was giving any opinion upon the guilt or innocence of the Queen.— , Tie was not sanguine in the belief that the Measure would restore tranquillity and content to the country, but he believed that it would take away many of the causes of irritation am ongs t the P eop l e , as we ll as some of the best means of the mischievous for, the promotion of their wicked designs—(H ear ). Peace— peace, he was desirous of having,. and hence it was that he supported this motion. It was reasonable that that House ought to yield to the strongly-expressed opinion of the People; and if ever there was an occasion when their strong and even deliberate sense was expressed, it was this—(l/ear, hear). They viewed the matter in quite a different light from the Members of that House; and, instead of calling upon them to yield up their opinions, the House ought to descend to the level of the People, and take up the matter as they had done. For nothing more did he (Mr. Wilberforce) admire that great Statesman, Mr. Pitt, than for the readiness with which he yielded up his opinion to the expressed sense of the People. But . in so doing he acted wi s ely, f or h e k new t h e . import once of having the People's confidence—(Hear, hear). He knew that unanimity was necessary at the junc ture, and he was persuaded, also, that he ought to endeavour to prevent the well-meaning part of the People from being the dopes of the designing.-- It was upon these considerations Mr. Pitt acted when he made up his mind to treat for Peace. He would have been glad to go on with the contest; but, when he saw the People against it, he yielded to them, and unequivocally avowed the cause of-the alteration in his sentiments. He (Mr. Wilberforce) would wish to see this wise conduct thought worthy of being imi tated with regard to this particular question ; for he ,feared that when other branches of the great subject passed away, and ceased to operate on the public mind, this would be renewed in the recollection of the People every Sunday—(Hear)—and he feared that the evil consequences would be so many, and so distressing, that the Parliament would regret they had not removed the cause before. He wished, before he sat down, to declare that he conceded to this motion not from any wish to confer dignity or honour on the Queen, but it was because the People did not deem it to be a mark of favour, but very properly said• that politics had nothing to do with religion; and he supported it above all, because he was satisfied that the vast majority of the People would be pacified.— The Hon. Gentleman sat down amid loud cheering. Mr. S. WORTLEY felt obliged at last to differ from his Hon. Friend (Mr. Wilberforce); and, after listening to the opinions of his Constituents and the People, it was his duty to declare, that he must vote. tor the exclusion of the Queen's name from the Li turgy. The People were certainly of another opinion generally; but he believed that arose from a false impression that she had a right to have her name in the Church Service. If he could be but convinced that she had that right, he would vote for 'this mo tion. Though there might not be facts sufficient to found a verdict of guilty against her Majesty, yet enough had been incontestibly proved to warrant him in not voting for the insertion of her name in the Liturgy ; though he thought, as he didln 1812, that there were such things in the treatment which the Queen bad received, that could not be justified. Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) rose, amid coughing, and cries of " Question." He expressed his surprise that the Honourable Member for Bramber should be supporting a motion in the very teeth of that with which he had himself come forward on a fcrmer oc casion. The truth was, there must be a giving way ; and if the Queen, who was in the wrong, would not give way, then, thought the Honourable Member for oramber, the Crown, which is in the right, must — that's all—(Hear, and laughter). The Honourable Member's principle (continued Mr. Martin) puts me in mind of a little matter which happened in my country—(Laughter). A friend of mine committed a great outrage upon somebody one night, and next morning he came to me—" What will I do?" said he, 4. You are the wrong doer, and, to be sure, you'll make an apology," said 11 B ut 3 he would not make any concession at all. Well:2-the friend of the injured party, as a man of honour should do, waited on me: " Your friend is in the wrong, and he'll apologise," says he !—" Faith, you may make a riddle of *hi& body, but devil of any apology you'll get from him," said I! " But what's to be done ?" said he. "That's what I don't know," said I! " Matters have gone so far; we'll never get out without an apology some way." " I tell you again—says I—apology my friend will make none." " Oh, then,' faith I have it —says he—if your friend won't apologise; to be sore mine shall, and that will be just the same thing you know I"—(Cheers and laughter).—Mr. Martin con cluded by dissenting from the motion. • Mr. LENNA RD contended, that . the 'prerogative of the Crown had been drawn in tb complete the ex traohlinary treatment which the Queen had received. I , . It would not be diffi cult to isiete to hirii; why the Queen's name should be restored to the Liturgy by those Ministers who were the ancient friends of her Majesty' But he had •no doubt that the time was lot tar distant when those Ministers would be obliged • to bend to titiblic opinioni Mr. WILMOT did not doubt that the Honourable Member had bronght forward this motion in the spirit of peace and conciliation t and the Honourable Member for Brambet (Mr. Wilbertorce . , had fol lowed him in the sato( strain, though he expressed himself as wishing the (Veen 's name restored to the Liturgy, on account of popular opinion, and not because she was wwrthy of any mark of favour. On the-subject of the American war, the late Mt. Burke differed from his Constituents ; and. in an- swer to their advice to him to vote in a certain way, hinting that the universal feeling lay that way, he said, I cannot attend to the advice you give me; I must not look to the passions of to-day. If you would have me for your Representative, 1 will be in this House as a pillar of the State, not as a weather cock of versatility.". So much did Mr. Burke perse- Sere in his contempt for what was termed public opi- . nion; and so obstinate was he in refusing to-be turned aside from his duty by its clamour, that the people . of Bi istol elected another in his stead. The House would better do its duty, and skew itself a litter Re presentative of the sound opinions of the Poo l le (A laugh) by acting more from itsjudgment, than by succumbing to the public feelings. He hoped this House would never make itself the register of ail the fleeting changes of- public opinion—(Hear). Mr. MAR RyArr supported the motion, on reli gious and political grounds. The omission of the Queen's name from the Liturgy was, of all others, the most improper mode of marking the sense which Ministers had of her supposed guilt. Of all persecu tions, religious persecution was the most abominable (Hear, hear). He woul e t not have the pulpit made the theatre of political enmities—(Hear, hear). Suds too was the general feeling on the subject; and all the effervescence in the public mind might be traced to this single measure. The Public, though they may reason wrong, in general feel right. They think it was an injustice to omit her name the first day, and they feel it is an oppression so long as it is continued. So long as it continued to be omitted, the efferves cence would not subside. It was to this all her popu larity was owing, and if he was her enemy, he would immediately restore her name, for then her popularity would cease. But then the great objection was a point of honour; to him, however, there appeared to be more honour in relaxing than in persevering in a wrong course--,(Hear, hear). It was said to be a party question, and that the removal of Ministers was involved in it. He denied that ; it by no means fol lowed, that if Ministers were left in a minority, they were to be turned out, for the same consequences ought to have followed on the Property Tax, and . other questions. The Honourable Member concluded by giving the motion his support. Lord MILTON, in answer to the allusions of the Hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. Wilmot), shewed that it was not because Mr. Burke differed from the People of Bristol on the American war alone that he lost his seat, but he differed also from them on the Catholic Question, and very many other great ques tions. Mr. Burke then certainly had the manliness to say, that in legislating on these core tions he did: not consider himself so much the Representative of Bristol as of the Nation at large. An addressing !louse of Commons was sneered at ; but he appealed to Burke, who gave it as his opinion, that it would be wise in this House always to add its prayers to the. general expressed prayers of the People at large. Sir T. ACLAND had no objection that this House should join its voice to the 1 rayers of the People to the Throne, if, indeed, those pra) ers were known to speak the unanimous sentiments of the People at large. The Petitions of a part, however, and a part. too, very incapable of forming a correct judgment, were not to be taken for the whole. The Petitions lately laid on the table seemed but the remains of an unsettled feverish state, in which the public mind had' long been. He did not deny but this might have aiisen Originally from good causes and generous feelings.— He felt regret at differing froM the Hon. Member for Bramber, but he wondered a man could admit the inexpediency of a measure, when he knew he could not comply with it without an impropriety. This motion was not only an imerposition by the House, but it was an actual assertion that a certain course ought to have been taken. After the notoriety of the proceedings in the other House —proceedings which were conducted with all the gravity and forms oft justice—(Hear, hear!)—it was not too much to say," that a great majority of the Queen's Judges recog nised by their vote the sense which they entertained of the truth of the charges preferred against her. Under such circumstances, then, how could the House call on the Crown to bestow an act of grace or fa vouron the Head of the Female Society of this king-. dom ?—(Hear, hear). Perhaps, as an individual, he would agree with the Noble Lord (Hamilton), that. the omission of her name was inexpedient and ill- - advised, in the first instance ; but he was far from , saying that the ste9 ought to be now recalled. With regard to this motion tending to the restoration of peace, he joined issue on that head with the Honour. able Member for Bramber. Should the House coft.- cede now, it would by no means put an end to the agitation of the question, for they should look a little further, and see whether similar requests would' not be laid before them on the same. subject?-- Could the House say, if they interfered itl this point of the Liturgy, that she would not be requiring their interposition on the subject of her Palaces, and still more if a Coronation should take place, a thing of all others the most likely to excite popular feelings (Hear, hear). The House could not with any gra t e refuse acceding to ler future requests, if they pledged themselves by this. There was another party in this case—that party wps the country ; and that House owed it to the country and to every virtuous leasale in it to resist the present motion—(Hear, hear). Sir JOHN NEWPORT contended that, on every principle of law, the abandonment of the late Bill by the HOuse of Lords left the Queen in *the same situation as if no charge had ever been made again t her ; .and as to a Bill of ,Pains :and Pemilties, such a thing should never be thought °fa , unless the saie y of the State made it absolutely necessary. As to the question then before the House, it would be a 'cleera dation to the Church of England if the Queen's name were left out of the Service of that Church. (Tara ese;• -- ru -f•-: niMt====l It