Star. — London, England, 1814-04-23 00:00:00

is;gited the *lions Al Witt ter , " :n measures. Mr. Festet ' mite tarellat4 pin any one rilagraph•of veal:11 0 i • i•rieitsme discussed rw thd lu4h Hasa* -ithoat adding. that the Bills relative. except telling hitt of aft irvirestigaina plate- ErtfirlMEliVilatrin'alk • .. - 6 1 W-r.• stated to the ertrivo,, that the manafactnrersdf Iteland, did ue r7 - iri he addressed, of course, ers *rs certain measures - 'Ain chicilhlkill ' stating, at the she time, the afraid been defeated. Ho would wisivamt ad the speech of Ur. Foster, .411111 to Right Han. Gentlernsa.4 4l vh .cluneiti sake, any.thing astaingeosiOsvaeseti • f the last. acre the nun.: • ed, (bat r. .Fostees . ainaecirehesid Aka W M was eceurdintli deon ld e.T.iVint Out a passage af,lktf, nstees r t peoiii erve. as a precedent tote Rightlbai Mr. Fouler Ida the•rweesart ght to be preserved; bbt belt*/ oft s endangered !ky i , the rfkastire . terAlifilli There. was ites fott; at . •- Hon - .43ertitlesiernientrld - vearrifsrpow speech of Mi. 'osier. The Rigku Hee ' d treated very ligltti.ythe ohjeitillidint know what was done by tile Honse•dlkosse r mmirtee, and had s sid, that thie Sprains o be present when the House war it* di . He vrould refer the Right limn. Gemini, authority. Mr. Speaker 6,- s' .31114 - - !did down by him, thiLierf.tritsaillatene . ..\ mittee the Speaker was die ass* i/o- • • from attending ; and the odeisperstis compelled to attend. lifte 44111 1 0 it • ble Gentleman to hii Sin eTti-Ifinelki - old find, that 44 when the /louse inna t e. he Speaker was supposed to begin. Itisi : Irit ."--( Hear, kear, 'hear, from sae meant to speak techniCaltY. - Vhe , man the ft delivered liii opinion.; i%fi . --14 -' he had not taken part in A1'1.0E1;160 et e, when party feelings wirre. ardeMlera- - eta. r before knoNvri in !,. n ‘—qpi t i s s. h those who had wit 11 ‘ 1 . 14 .' .4 ' mild never fireget. Fr .vt &Wit ad then stated sirs sentinients—dlikilsailL , ured to assuage the acrimony of r •11,. order—it might have beer= of itstr: at livered his .setnirtients aili:.this eleidellie vr called the Doke of +74)l46l4's:BillAlMl 4307, ;Shea the Right Saw Gentisole lair, bore the name of a Noble relni.oelci nt Howick, now Earl Grely)4• miE ifilidt the dissolution of theitiltitictistinfirt'fi He} contended, that,. as Speaker, stai. . Gentleman could not, except t* qrsia .from the Chairman of vi Corarnitein to • scion of the eircanistaneet silqhliteq: synl. mittee. And such were Ow entrater4i. dings of that particular Conienettse.lieleth e catholic Bill, that even from the Chair, k. ulti nor have received any • itiforinatia -;iii ' .)—The House of Commons, after keg •n and tnature rellecticn, sent the Cellists Committee. pr a majority of Aar tl rich gave the Rotnan Cathodes a right so .tment, was lost. The Right Hon Gentle . one of those who voted against it. When • the Chair, no Report at as made to bins Committee: there was hot, therefore, any g .before tire Right Hon. Gentleman. en had a rght 60 act, wl'en he declared, that was defeated. The Bill, at the time .the n. Gkritlemaninacte the statement. wai ist and alive.---(Harr, hear.)_ as this, liteisrp uric expasitioa of the x.litinients of the Did tie Right Honourable Gentleman. —could hp pretend not to lieoirr, - itat the. not expired ? (Loud trim of Hear, tan iP , order! from the Mihisteriall liesseioz.)l-46c. ad observed, that he was sidled upon ea t, and he would speak otti.--(it lairth.).- . e Right Honourable Gentlemau explain Om on which every individual-acted on this err-" if, lit 1807, the Right Hon. Gentleness d that the provisions of Lord Howiek's 811 cted, because they would endanger the Con•• —those provisii ns which were since happily :ed in the Duke of Norfolk's Bill—those pre now passed in England, and so long pee the Catholics of Ireland—would that have -exposition of the sentiments of that-Howe! Mr. Sr ,ker Foster made Iris exposition dpeaL xessiti of the Protestant ascendancy in Fs& t 4 he lit' his cnntemplation that: is the Way ision of the Irish Parliament, some cif thime ons,were granted to the Catholics. and Avale 7 . into a law, which had been previously refusete ear.) This plowed the impropriety. of ad. to measures, which were my laid asidefor a —which might be introduced. esiocessisdir • • d, in a very short time after their defeatwan ced. As a private Meniber, she Right It* an certainly had a right to fik..air. in a Colo but as Speaker he had no right afterwards., tion what had passed. He had no tight whet m4e the eipnsition be had done, and whidk. idesed a violation of duty from beginning no Hear; hear,) —aggravated by the situation is •e was placed-- , Hear, hear.) The Right Ho le Gentleman had quoted Mr. Hatsell. fle bitbread) wyuld refer him to that part of it. the answer of Mr. Speaker Lisntall was to .be who, when King Charles demanded the Sue .us Members, answered. " I have neither eyes ears to hear, nor tongue toopeak, but as the directs." The Right Hon. Gentleman's con ad been very different—it differed essentially hat whicill should be 'the conduct of every r. He had used his ears to hear, and hiseyes as a private Member of Parliament. and used ne, as Speaker, to give utterance to that he had no right to stAte—cffear,4e4r, loor:j-" as the view be had tacit of that part of the Hon. Ger.tleman's sr eech. If he appliedlltim the other topics contained in it, he might joist ble Friend in praising the elogneneeeelth which ght Hon. Gentleman had descanted on the hril chievements of our irmy, which bo4 so fit y demanded the thanks of the gestsin....thode d congratulations called forth bystreettoonts, w happily terminated by the glary of the 4IME. ;tisk s *RA by the more tlikkena jwallts glo ry of ni°(l°• tatioe--(Hear, bean) • Here he a willing to give retry praise, that nervous elosaence, employed on t i ti e littt Mote fateful tti Ail their hearts,. so *ell fle '—i.be t even overlook the Observations 'on ON new • financial arrangefuents, which, • the Right IBA* Githdtmats seemed to think, would produce effects even beyond the comprehension of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, or cf any other of his Ma jesty's Ministers-;--(e laugh.) But, when he considered that pail of the speech, which had occasioned the pre sent discussion, he found what he never could con ceive to be any thing but a direct violation of duty, and which, therefore, deserved the severest censure. As the Right Hon. Gentleman had expressed, some 'dissatillaction, because' a direct resolution was not 'noted on the present. occasion, he (Mr. Whitbread) 'would now submit one, as an amendment, which, 1w helievedi was couched in terms sufficiently direct.— lie then moved, , L • - " That oll . the woidap,aftec the word That; be omitted, for tic purpose of introducting-Lit appears to this House, that Ms. Speaker did , at the cloth of the last Session, at the Bar of this ?louse of Lords, communicate to his oyal Highness the Pripet: Regent,' cer4sltt proceedings of this R House, had in a Committer Of eke whole Howe, relative to his Majesty's Roman Catho*lc &Objects, which Aittiot terminate in any act done by. the Hotisef arti-did inform Ms Rhyil j-lightiess of the motives and reaseuts *White presuined Whisked the Members in the.proesedtga they took ; wherebT he ststiguilty of a violation of the trustio posed in bim; and* tirisai of the rrivileges of this Htluse, Itt which be is the ehowri guardian and protector." This Air:rend:tient was seconded by Mr. CaaavEv Mr. BANKES. was ready to combat both the Re, solutions which ,had been proposed, by valid argil aunts ; but he should first say a few words respect ing the last of them, becaufe it was the more specific and substattial'of the two. In it the Speaker was charged 'With a gatiss violation of 'his duty ,by he speech Which he delivered at the Bar 'Of the - other House at the end of the last Session. In his concep tion, it was prisPer that-the stieech delivered nn such on.oecasion should be an exposition of . the different matters which have engaged the attention of the House during its sitting.. Ow this point he concei. wed the authority of MlVltlatiell 'too be the best. — Being• desirous to knowierhether Mr. Hatsell was tairue out by the doeutuidts•ro which he'referred, for is opinion, he had eonstilted the documenti them - salvesi anti sound that they. did completely confirm his opinion. ttfatters evehlor the future considera tion of tl-e House had, he found, I been embraced in . . speeches made on such: occasions by different Spea lkeW Ting that this was the case, could ii be mid that the case under consideration was one to be takfu mit of the general latitude admitted in *uch merely on account of the proceedings oni the opeeches, , . . 14 having been dropped ? He -was not surprised that the Right Hone Gentleman had dismissed that part of the subject very lightly' which referred to the abjection of his not being supposed to kpow any thing of the proceedings of the House in a Commit, ice. Nothing could be more absurd than to. suppose that the Speaker, on taking the Chair, was to he seam at once ignorant of what he had been witness . e! affr had participated in doing in a Committee ; be s, the proceedings of the Committee wete recor. • via to these recleds the Speaker had access.—. The Right Hon. Gentleman was fiilly jtuaified in appealing to the precedents of Mr. Foster and Mr. Oaslow.• As to the :speech iptebiled to have been !pokey by the lat Ors; be„supposed that those who . seethed to ridicule any reference to it, must know, that .such a speech could not have been made before Compissiobers in the absence of the Sovereign. Sup pe:wing the proceedings pf the House on the India All had sot been finished, would it be said that the Speaker was not authorized to take any notice of that subject in his speech ? He thought th.it prece dents not only justified the speech in questieu, hut would sanction even greater latitude. .Atter, the House nezatived both Resolutions, hehoped it would come to some affirmative decision on the subject. Mr. WILLIAMS WYNNE wished to know how die Speaker had any kno wled g e that.the - session was closed when he mane his speech at the bar .of the Weber ttonie ? From t.e earliest periods it had bees the practice for the Speaker to take occasion to say Stove words on the subject of the Bills which he pre. ...s wed for the Royal A s sent ; and thence. had crept, is what he conceived to be the unnecessary practice of recapitulating the motives by which he conceived the HOuse to have been actuated in passing them. Sot in no instance was there a single case in which be Speaker on such an occasion mentioned any pro posal_by a single Member of the House, either de. faded* pending. He should think that any one rWent a greater length in such case s than was aitv 4 fully by precedent, acted unwisely. No Inebitach of the Legislature could take any cogni. Space of a proceeding pendiag in either House.— ' lele laund ,it laid down in the year 1740, as an dent, undoubted order, thoit vihile any measure was under discussion,. and undecided .in Pasha twat, the Crown should he made- acquainted with Ilt. In 1753, a Member of the Hottse having elated his wish to he released from the rule, for the purpose. of mentioning some ciretnristancer.relat.. fiag to a Courothartial, a message was brought down to the Hours on the subject, on which the Speaker at once took the alarm, and it was noticed on the jour- 0 pals that it should not be drawn into a precedent. In the speech of Mr. Foster, which had beets referred to, p o t one word was said by which it could be wider atood that any bill on the subject alluded to had been before the House. lie telt great respect for the au thority of Mr. Hatsell, but in the present instance he would swish to have his authority rejected. There were instances in which he had emitted precedents, such as in that of a question of privilege, which had been before the House about four years . ego. There were also some instances in which his opinions had been proved to be erroneous I such as in what he said with aspect to the right of calling for a division. The Speaker had no right to kn ow any thing that passed in a Committee, except as a private Member ; and he bad not any power to state in his speech to the Throne what the House had not done. The course of the Crown was sufficiently understood. As the King was not, as King, to take not ice of any thing ece except in a legal or parliamen tar y wa y , so no person is at liberty to communicate to the King any thing irregular. 'The Motion of the Noble Mover, it must he admitted, con. veys a censure, but in t h e mildest possible way ; be. same it must have seemed. to t he Noble Lord t that ,i, - the error which had been committed proceeded only froma inigpnception ot duty. brou Itt dawn the was the same with 1491'd Chatham ,, rhea he O • t a of 17:57, the Itodse tilt - night pitnief to ekprets it 4 ate pleasure at the time. It was mtheeessary for hirh to detain the House any longer ibut on tha gr ounds he had stated, he felt boiand tli frWlitgainst went.. .•.; . , Mr. ROSE could hot bit think the subj ell - di 'con siderable ittiportancei ntse could he refrain, nin . with standing *hat had fallen from so many able etoti - acl ters, frcm offering his hterible,opinion upon it. That the Noble Mover bid also thought the topic to be one 'of great roagaitude, seas evident from the early period of the Session at which he had given notice of his mo- Oen. It was, indeeds rather unfortunate that the dis cussion had nottome on at an - earlier p-riod ; but the :House had been so unuidally thin ever since the-no. tice had been given, that justice could only be doe to the topic...by the call which had now t iken place. For himself be had no hesitation in declaring, that what the Speaker had said, appeared strictly confor `mable to the usages and customs of that • House in all periods. If Mr. Hatsel's entries and statements can be supposed to be precedents, as they caenot be de nied to be, the House may safely rely on thew. The Learned Speaker had alluded to measures which had been defended in that House he would not under -take to saythai he had spoken on measures which had been decided on, nem would he enter on a diseussioi , whether it would not ha ve been more safe to allude to the latter than to the former. Butwould any body say that it is not notorious and certain, that when the Speak. -er goevup to the HouseofLords the Session is at anend? The Right lion. Gentleman then referred to the oc currences of 1761 and 1762, when the Speaker spoke on the subject of the 'claims,of the Non s Cnnlormists, to shew, that bills which could not be got through in the• session, were spoken of to the throne, although, suffered to rest till the next session ; and he would wish to ask whether more danger was not tote op; prehended to the Crown, from telling of bills of that sort which were depending, than of those which had gone by ? If he were to state to the House the num bers of speeches made by different speakers at the times in question, he should tire their patience but he knew of fifteen or twenty whereon the Speaker could have had no possible authority for speaking. Gentle men might argue, that the Speaker had no right to deliver his sentiments on such occasions ; but if the House were to come to a resolution of that sort, his ditty would be narrowed beyond any principle of iright or justice.. Armongst the precedents to which he had allirde.d, were those of 1720 and 1721. when 'the House was occupied with the South Sea scheme. When , the Parliament met in 1721, the Speaker 'made a variety of observatiotis at the bar of the Upper House, on a subject which occupied every mind ; he had no authority for what he said, and it turned out that he was e4tremely wrong in his Surmises ; but his conduct was mat called in question. Would any. Ge ntleman say, tha: it is imprudent in a Speaker to in form himself of wfAt is going on in the House ? Is not the minute book in, his possession for this very purpoie ? sCertaialy ti's is the use he might be ex• patted to make of it.. IN (Mr. Rose) could see no analogy whatever between IVIr. Pitt, in 1757, taking notice of what was passing At the. very time he spoke, and the present Speaker inEvely adverting toswjtat bad gene by. On the whole it ape:eared to him that in what had been -done by the Hight Hon. Gentle man in the Chair was implied no defi,-.iency of defer ence to the House, nor was it otherwiae than strictly conformable to his duties in Parliament. He trusted that had been made clearly to appear, that the usage was established, and if-- so, nothing could be more unnecessary than a vote of censure. The Hon. FRELERIC DOUGLAS wan fully aware of the. important nature of the subject,. and was disposed to pay all due regard to the authority of the precedents that had been mentioned. Lot it seemed to him that these, or rather the inference' de. *clucible from them, were divisible into two cheeti— first, that the Speaker had no right to descant before the Throne upon what had passed in that House ; and-secondly, that although he might allude to , the occurrences which had taken place, he had no right to introduce eny comment 'or general opinion of kris own. The speech of Mr. Ohslow was of this List description, as it was founded on the length and ns tore of the war ; and if there were any case in - whie•Ji the Speaker could have known the sentiments of the House, this might be supposed mit. With regard :to the Act which had been the subject of his Noble Friend's motion, however impolitic, it was known to the Speaker that a majority of that House hakrefos ed to grant the relaxation of the Catholic Laws ; but It did not appear that the sentiments so delivered were the sentiments of the said majority. The Hon. Gentleman then, by way of contrast. alluded to the, conduct of a corrupt Speaker (Sir Robert Wal p ole ) , and observed that the House ought to be very anxi ous respecting its own dignity and the character of its Speaker. It ought to be tenacious in its votes on ebis occasion, lest, in the lapse of tithe, supposing.a vote of censure should be passed, the world might 'indiscriminately confound two persons whose charar , ters were diametrically opposite ; the °sic notorious for the most consummate profligacy and want. of principle ; the other a Gentleman distinguished by every noble and manly quality, and combining, in two important stations, the most striking ability with the highest possible integrity. Mr. W. WYNNE and Mr. ROSE severally ex plained. Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought the subject should be viewed iu a serious light, as a matter which, in the future deliberations of that House, might lead to serious inroads in its customs. It seemed to be admitted on all hands, that any prece dent applicable to the case is not to be found. Re. fetence had been made to the speech of the Speaker in the Irish Parliament, but that case did not at all bear out the analogy.. If Speaker Foster conceived himself warranted in what he said."the House did nut go along with him ; for in the same Session a Bill, against the principle of which he spoke, was brought in, to give the elective franchise to the Catholic body. Foster had the best possible Opportunity of delivering his sentiments, by stating what bad actually passed in the House, not what had passed in a Committee. In - short, the precedents of the Irish Parliament went in direct contradiction of what had been brought for kftard in favour of the conduct el the Right Hon. iGrentletnan in the Chair. If this aorta conduct were to be sanctioned, there would be but one step more to strike at she independence of Pedianseust even the grounds of and - motives tot the opinions given in that dative * and individuals marked outior die displepr, in 1 the aistrim, aoli ail for debar Mr. sr. P. GRANT 'said, he should g. ive his vote in favour of the resolution proposed by the Noble Lard (Morpeth) conceiving that that introduced by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Whitbread) went further than the occasion called for. He was satisfied, that the Right Hon. Gentleman -in the Chair had not, in the conduct which he had pursued, been actuated by any improper motive, but had been betrayed by his zeal, beyond what his duty to the House and the. Country Warranted ; and therefore it was, that he (Mr. Grant) was desirous of coming to some vote which would prevent that ednduct from being drawn into a prece eent in future. The Catholic Question had not, on this occasion, been t .ached upon ; in fact, it had Er thing to do with tiv subject under discussion. But he .solemnly declared; however attached he might be to that great and important topic, that if the commu nicatimii to the Throne had been directly the reverse bl,.ehat it was, he should have come to the same vote, from a conviction, that unless the Constitutional pri. vileges of the House were preserved,. the freedom of discussion, to which they had hitherto attached so much importance, Would be completely sacrificed..... (Hear, hear.) The CHANCILLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, no man was more jealcius of the interference of I.the Crown with the privileges of Parliament than he was ; but notwithstanding all that had been said, he .was disposed to think, upon the authority of the long course of precedents which had been cited, that the proceeding at the Bar of the House of Lords, at the conclusion of the kit Session, if fairly considered, was fully justified, and he felt little doubt that the majority of the Houie would coincidein that opinion. Mr. PLUNKETT observed, that at whatever length he might have originally intended to address the House, upon this important subject, so matt had been said, and so ably said, by Gentlemen who had preceded him, that little remained for him to add. He could not, however, reconcile himself to give a silent vote. The speech which had been alluded to, u delivered by the Hon. Gentleman in the Chair, he considered as most objectionable, and as containing one of the most fundamental attacks which had been *made on the privileges of Parliament since the Re volution ; and it became the more reprehensible, on account of its- having proceeded 'from one' who WAS the natural guardian of those privileges. Ile believed there was no question on which to anxious ealousy bad been felt , as the pres ervation of. the louse frpm all controul. It was not necessary to quote precedents to establish that fact; these had been already too amply considered, and were too generally • linown, to render any further observation necessary. —The communications froni the Throne to Parlia ment must take place according to the mode which hind hitherto been defined and accepted—namely, by a speech or message. This had always been done, 'and hence all interference with the deliberations of the House had been avoided. If comnrmications were to be made from Parliament to the Throne; it was always done by Address or Resolution. Such had been thF 'invariable practice, and beyond these limits the House never went, save in ,presenting hill for assent or dissent. The Speaker had no ri g ht to address the Throne Unless with some bilt—and upon the late occasion, when he addressed the Throne on the Vote of Credit Bill, unless such Bill had passed, his speech would not have been warrant ed, even by the colour of Parliamentary usage. Ile did not mean to say, in presenting a Bill, the Speaker was strictly confined to the matter of that 13111, as he might, for the sake of ornament or pub. 'tic effect, go a little out of his way, and might introduce other matter, and advert to general milks, or to general policy. This he would do, at his own risk, but he had no right trOntrochice an/ stibject connected with Parliamentary proceeding which had not received the sanction of the Hmise.--..(lisar, hear) That any argumeiirs could be derived in favour of the Right Hon. Gentleman in the Chair, from the conduct pursued lajf the Speaker of the Irish House f Parliament, 'IL denied, as was sufficiently evident from an examination of the speech of the latter Right Hon. Gentleman, in which, certainly, a very strong 'opinion was given as to the expediency of preserving the Protestant ascendancy ; but upon this opinion he had-no reason to congratulate himself; because the House acted in complete opp isition to it in the-en ,suing Session. It was Importan t to observe too, that on the occasion of that speech, there had ben no pro ceeding before Parliament respecting the subject to which reference was made • and hence it.was evident that the Right Hon. Gentleman was making a gene ral nbiervaildn of hii own, without any allusion to the sentiments of the House.—( Hear.) From this, cer ' taiihytif *vat lacer, that the Speaker was at Übe, trto introduCe stick geirt7.4l remarks on indifferent sn4- jeets, as he might think proper ; but it would be dif. fieult to find •a precedent whereby he would be an-, thorised to offer comments upon a measure which had been introduced into the House, and had not been passed but *rejetted. If a measure had 'pass?d, it spoke its own value,-and no person was answerable for that which appeared to be the act of the House; but if it was not passed, some censure would be im plied against those by whom it kad been proposed. It never appeared upiaa the face of a bill, whether it had passed unanimously or not. The number of the divisions were never stated; and for the plain reason, that the House would not suffer its proceedings to be subject to controul of any description. To accom pany a statute with areference to the arguments which had taken place previous to its enactment, would lead to censure in someway, and would go beyond all pi i vilege and usage of Parliament. -(Hear.) With reference to the authority of. Mr. Hatsetk., which had been so much relied upon, he did not Nl* that the opinion of a clerk of that House was necessary to enable its Members to form a judgment of what the Constitntion a the British Pashatoent was. But e Pen his authority did not go die )ength of establishing 'the fact, that the Speaker had a right to address the Throne on a rejected measure ;. nor as he had stated before, was , there any precedent which could sanction such a right. At to the opinion delivered by the Hfteaket, uPott the Cathplk Claims, at the Bar of the all `• at lottds. ICtt, folk toto ) was by no means dis- . POstedidinissetibe to ittiostice. (Hear) He did not, itcfaccfelniirirrNTimtFiiiii*y.iireet freif - octet dl see. sake: th e libel t y of shortly re. F 4 . 410 t 4 e ~C 'vela fitid been dace on this m .st mortienteue 1 1%PH6iaie bait come to a resolution to op ; . •:•It'eSlninitreis to-take into etniiderati on the law, . •- - fcting. the C.atholics, With a view 6) au .nicable ad:isitant; 0-This Committee met, ivid_ frame tam Reniltitions„ approving of the fiiimfs: aeon of the lf;nman C:ttholicr toPal hrtiaern isrcit ent, rune secureserum conditions , tending to tng aserndarcy and succession to the' Throne. Three' , Were adopted, and the next stage io which cti.cussiove took place Was on- the se and reading of the BilV thrmigh which it. passed. AU thole proceedingv the' SpeakelftothlTY foilot - to state ; and, as it liostiie to the measure, he • only adverted to that stage, of the =prikeisfingse which seemed conformable with his own opinions. Under then eircetslitaticet, h*eawci not help 'saying,- that thelipenher hid misrepresented • ;what did pass. It would' be, recollected, thief Ali' spieStion - was only set rte'strep by a mlnrity afar; end that 217 Membembail declared. that the 11.tim.in Catholics were admissible to .Pat lea m Tiles* t ar ts the. Speaker had to/ally - omitted to nice had, in fact, substituted his own opinion for ilia: ot the • House at large, in doing which lie seemed eota'.4 io - have forgotten that this vital question would *gain come hack to Parliament, and, if unfinished, he (Mr. ',Plunkett) would ask, alter the communication which bad been made, how could Parliament perform its Constitutional doles when the. artillery of Royal in fluence were isiougliz. twbear against it ?—( Hear. ) &appose, oat the other hand, the Speaker bad regretted that the labours of the 247 Members, who bad sap ported- the C...holic: Claims. had been disappointed, [old expressed a hope that their future exertions would be attended with• better success, would not the Gen.; *Semen who were the opponents of the measure sayit !that they. had been unfairly dealt with ?—(Hi— The Right Hon. Gentleman had talked of the glo.. rious achievements witich had been performed by that great man, to whom Ireland had given birth.; made there was not a 'heart which did not echo back his sentiments ; 'outhe seemed totally to have forgotten that the Irish Catholics, against whom he bid in. ieighed, had opened the sluices of their heart's biooil , in obtaining every one of those victories. This con duct reminded him of a practice among the Romas t who always included a slave in their celebration of, their triumphs, not so much for the sake of mocking their victim, as to remind the conqueror of the Mina', bility of human nature. So with the unfortunate CiQ tholkcs ; while the laurel was twined mend the brows, ot their . gallant Commander, they were allowed to, :share.ht the glory,•but they were not suffered to phare, is the fruits ot their conquests—•( Near, hear.) IIANKES explained. Mr. CANNING could not agree to either 'of the -Motions. The question he considered to be, whether the Speaker bad abused the trust reposed in him not ? The tees discretion implies that it may. be abused. He recapitulated Ali the arguments that had been used, smai touched upon the pledge the House had given to take the subject into considera tion. Various motives inffuenced different individuals; won the occasion, and !le considered the melsure Int suspended. He considered the arguments that bait been produced against the use of this discretien u tending rather to establish it ;—and that it.woull he a much fairer way of dealing to abolish the privi. lege altogether,. than to fetter it in the way-at d be,lleither of the Motions were adopted. He considered the dangers` anticipated by the motion AS visionary ; and, if the privilege be liable to abuse, it were better to rstrict it, and then a double measure must always take place, as a diseussion must- occur to define in what way, andto what extent, the Speaker in.ty have liberty to mention it at the close of the Ses sion; and that must be decided by a majority Such a course he highly ridiculed. The N able Lord would leave the Speaker with many unclipped privi leges, and no 'guide in others but his motes. Bet ter go the full length, and say that he shall speak to the Crown out nt the Hon,f as he would to the Crown in the Rouse, as a servant of t e H , use, with out eyes, ears, or tongue, for any other purpose.- Mr. Canning used a variety of illustrations to sitew ti hardship and impropriety of censuring t ie Speaker.— From the majority on that important coestioss be dif fered as widely as possible, and he conicided: in o [ i.; pion witlehis Right 'Hon. and Learned Friend, Who looked forward to the acconiplipithsent of that-great Measure at no 'very distant 'perisd, wish pride and confidence. He allowed that the state of the countp; [ last Sesiion, was such as might have been the means of defeating that measure; but events recently passed ;had so changed the circumstances which then existed,. that, when the Bill was next brought torwArd,he had Ino doubt of itt meeting with complete success. 'He, therefore, could net join in any motion which was td [ call the Speaker to account for the ex, rcise of a diu cretion actually vested in him by the forms and usage 'of the House. Mr. TIERNEY would riot takeup the time of the House; but could not give a silent vote alter the er traordin.ary . speech that bad been delis -, red by - the !ion. Menthe who had just sat down. He was sur prised to hear the opinion that be had delivered, par e ocularly when be considered how very forward, upoll that celebrated measure, lie had been ; and, indeed, 'from a fair interpretation of his speech, was likely again to be. he could not, therefore, attribute) h s vindication of the representation made bylhefipeaker to any other motive than that of a liking of power; his participation of which did not appear to be very problematical. The Right Hon. Gentleman cannot rite the difference between a question that has, and one that has not been adopted. This bethought most extraordinary, and the Right Hun. Gentleman [lays clown the law arbitrarily that, because other /*eaters have used a great latitude of discretion, that therefore the Speaker of the present day has the right. He prstessed that he had no objection to his being an Orator; •but he had to his being an Histore.rf ; and his complaint was not, that he had letercis43l his discretion imps operly, bet that he had nepremoted what need took plisse. -For his own part, be bad no objection to make tbe alterati•or in the virtues, in order to obtain the Right Hon. Gentleasau's VOW. htr oct i u ti g t: ci s He considered, if this discretion were allowed to the a speech made .by him in that sharaster. Ail • WOO; s pi:zy ke ... r, n th ; aatndinhettrroxiiatcewdilla chioriclowert to the Bill which was rejeessdo and which was.ll,,c measure alluded to by the Speaker, be Sank . . •. .!-- . . O f 414 Otown. it would be ie enty to intro- POsed't :e the a; yeterinilatrie to. iWicw.e7 itFfitt laces (Loud itiet Odes; orde..) , -.-Gtntlemen tike%; hi cry stistibr - Ciftlir2S - rtitstqf at it his opinion; It *dad he risoremrderly to preserve topic. rules and privileges .01- that House, and prevent 00412 innovatioos b whiclr,if once suffered to grow into a rescact arm,_viould ;pan atiotish all - freedom for debate. atlocat ____—• _ .. • _ L ti t 4l • I . I 4 3. • :1 • . so: