Star. — London, England, 1821-06-16 00:00:00

, . j , - nnless they were indkiduals of the character he had come back with a very false colour ing on their minds, as regarded the real state of the l country the were sent to visit. If the provisions of this Bill, however, were carried faithfully into effect, he augured much good from its operation, and there-, fore he would give it his support. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER also anticipated much good from the operation of the Bill now under the consideration of the House. Mr. CALCR AFT hoped no Member of Parlia ment, or any individual holding other places; would be appointed to this Commission. The House then went into a Committee. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then proceeded to state the outline of his Bill. A Com mission was to be appointed ; but the Bill gave them no compensation. The Clown had nothing to do with compensation; • but the Commission would depend on Parliament, and not on the Crown for a reward for their labo urs. Mr. 11UNIE was at a loss to see the necessity there was for having five Commissioners in this case. He also objected to some of the persons named as Com missioners. The Vice-Piesident of the Board of Trade, for instance, who could not attend to his duties here, and yet be in Ireland. Another individual, Colonel Barre, also a Member of this House, he objected to. He had the highest respect for that Gentleman, but could not consent that any Member of the House should hold a share in this Commission, unless such Members would pledge themselves not to receive any remuneration either now or hereafter. He must also allude to another individual, Mr. F. Lewis, who stood in the same situation. He had no apprehensions as regarded his Hon. Friend not doing his duty, but he could not consent that his Hon. Friend, as a Member of Parliament, should be drawn, in the most distant manner, within the influence of t he Crown. Another circumstance lie must advert to: if the Commis sioners were to have remuneration, he would rather the sum should be named in the Bill. Mr. F. L&WIS said, as he had been alluded to, he must say a sew words. He must declare his readiness to devote himself to the service of the Public at all times and in all places, to the extent of his abilities, • and that without fee or reward. But he must, at the same time ask, was this to be adopted as a general rule? for it must be understood that exception could not be made to his particular instance, either in jos- . tice to himself or the Public. He would ask his Hon. Friend whether, then having served the Public faithfully, honestly, and honourably, without fee or reward, he believed that afterwards receiving a re muneration would render him incapable of dis charging his duty honourably in future? He could not entertain such an idea generally of mankind; and if he could fir a moment entertain such a sus picion of himself, he would pray that the earth should now open and swallow him, as a disgrace to human nature. Having said thus much, he would only say, that as to the appointment, he was as in different about it as a man could possibly be. He would very readily vote for any other Member who should be proposed ; for he must say, he was of opinion that the Commission should be constituted of Members of the House, to give it due weight and information. Mr. WALLACE said, as lie held a situation and salary already, he should not expect any remunera tion for this appointment, though, as a general posi tion, he must object to the proposition that Members of that House should receive no remuneration for their public services. Mr. CALCRAFT observed, that as to the Right Hon. Gentleman undertaking the duties of this Com mission without salary, the Right Hon. Gentleman, had a salary already, and the Public were entitled to his services. He was, however, most ready to pay the Right Hon. Gentleman's expenses. The Right Hon. Gentleman had talked on the subject of this appointment, as if it was one of infinite danger and peril; as if it was an expedition into an enemy's country, where he was to be called on to face danger at the cannon's mouth ; whereas, all he would have to do, would be to take a trip over to Ireland in a steam packet—(A laugh __As to the appointment of his lion. Friend (Mr. F. Lewis), it pained him to have the duty of making any observations upon it. His Hon. Friend had talked of doing his duty indepen- ' dently and fearlessly. He had always seen his Hon. Friend so discharge his duty; but he had never seen his Hon. Friend in place—(Hear).---His Hon. Friend bad seen, and he (Mr. Calcraft) had seen the effect invariably produced by place upon Gentlemen, who, up to the period of taking office, had performed their duty fearlessly, honestly, and honourably. His Iron. Friend seemed confident of being an exception to the general rule. He hoped, he believed, his Hon. Friend would prove that exception ; but if he did— if his Hon. Friend should not act with his Right Hon. Friends opposite—if he should vote.unluckily on a Malt Tax or an Agricultural Horse Tax, he would not hold his place longs—(Hear, hear).—And, 'with all the respect he had for his Hon. Friend, he must take the sense of the House on his appointment. —As to the other appointment, Mr. Harris was, he understood, Auditor of the Civil List ; he was the person whose duty it was to check .the expenditure of that department ; and he would ask, was it right that he should hold a situation and a salary distinct from that office? There was another Commissioner, Mr. Lushington, a brother of the Secretary to the Treasury. Had he au official situation ? What, none? Then he was extremely unlucky In having a.hrother in the Treasury, and himself without a si tuation. He had heard that Mr. Lushington was a Coal Meter. He should, however, take the sense of the House on the appointment of his Hon. Friend to this Commission. Mr. F. ROBINSON said, the Right Hon. Vice- President of the Board of Trade had a great deal to do. In the performance of this new duty that Right Hon. Gentleman might essentially benefit the inte rests of trade. Their visit to Ireland might be very pleasing ; but the cleansing the Augean Stable would not be light or easy—(Loud cheers).—The only plea-' sure which his Honourable Friends could derive Irom the task, was in the consciousness of the advantages derivable from their exertions to the Public; and the whole of the remuneration which his Right Honour able colleague wished to enjoy, was the be n efi c i a l re sult to the Empire at large of the faithful execution of a great national undertaking—(hear, hear). .Lutd A. HAMILTON called the attentioreof the House to the importance of the principle to be esta blished by this Bill, by which persons were to be al lowed to hold their seats on being appointed to new ' offices. The reason why persons accepting offices must vacate their seats in Parliament was, that they should go back to their constituents, in order to ascertain their opinion as to the propriety of their accepting such office. He could have no hesitation on which side he should vote on this occasion. An Hon. and Learned Friend of his had offered to accept the office of a Commissioner to inquire into Charitable Esta blishments throughout the country, but, at the same time, accompanied his offer With one to relinquish his seat in Parliament for a temporary period. Mr. BROUGHAM said, he made that offer with out emolument, and therefore he did not offer to re linquish his seat in Parliament ; but even then he wished to have the refusal of the situation. He had no objection to his Hon. Friend's appointment to this Commission, except on the principle of this being an instance of the attempts to extend the influence of, the Crown in that House. His Hon. Friend most undoubtedly would not suffer this influence to have any effect on him; but it might become a precedent for the appointment of others, on whom it might have strong influence. Mr. GREN FELL said, this was not an appoint ment by the Crown, but by a vote, and an Act of Parliament; and, therefore, his lion. Friend could not be removed by the Crown, but by Parliament. Dr. PHILLIMORE defended the appointment of this Commission, the object of which was to inquire into gross and monstrous abuses. This wat *a case, of all others, calling for a Commission to carry on a Parliamentary inquiry. • Mr. B.ROWNLOW supported the motion. Sir C. LONG defended the capacity of Mr. Harris and Mr. Blierens to fill up this Commission, they having given their services gratuitously on the Com mission for inquiring into the state of the Customs. Mr. ABERCROMBIE thought three Commis sioners were amply sufficient to fill up this Board.— He should vote agai.ist any Member of Parliament, therefore, sitting on this Board. Mr. Clt EEVLY objected to any money of the Pub lic being given to another Member of Parliament.— Last night, in voting against a Tax, he counted forty five Members who had public money in their pockets. Ministers might put the whole of the public money into the pockets of Members of Parliament on this pi inciple—(Hear). Mr. W. SMITH should vote against the appoint ment of his Hon. Friend to this situation. Sir J. NEWPORT was satisfied, that to make the Commissioners beneficial to the Public, their appoint ment should come from Parliament, and not from the Crown. If he considered this office as one of a per manent kind, he would, as soon as any man, object to the appointment of Parliamentary Commissioners; but this was a temporary Parliamentary inquiry, and therefore there ought to be some Members of Parlia ment on the Commission. Mr. MABERLEY thought they ought to have no more on this Commission than were, necessary to dis., charge the duties of this office; and, therefore, three Commissioners were sufficient. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not think the object of this Commission could be car ried on effectually without joining Members of Par liament in it. Mr. DENMAN objected to the clause supplying vacancies in the Commission by death or resigna tion, or otherwise, by the power and influence of the Crown, and not by the authority of that House. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said, the object of every Member of that House ought to be to prevent any increase of the influence of the Crown over Parlia ment or its Members. Mr. A BERCROMBIE suggested that the number of the Commissioners be reduced to three. Mr. MABERLEY moved that they be reduced to three.—The Committee then divided— For the Motion - - 77 Apinst it Majority - - —46 This division was in favour of the appointment of Mr. F. lawn. During the exclusion from the gallery, the Com. mittee again divided— For the appointment of Mr. WAVIAce as one of the Commissioners - Against it - - - Majority - SI - 25 - -58 Mr. HUME objected to the clause making the ap pointment last for two year l / 4 and moved that it should be but for one year. The motion was negatived without a division. The Bill went through the Committee, and was ordered to be reported on Monday. On the motion of Mr. C. GRANT, the House went into a Committee of Supply on the Holyhead Roads and the Irish Estimates. CLAIMS OF GENERAL DESFOURNEAUX. Mr. IRVING rose to renew his motion of a com pensation to General Desfourneaux. Mr. C. GRANT gave way to the Hon. Gentleman. Mr. IRVING then proceeded to address the Comm mittee. He had on a former night shortly submitted to Parliament the grounds of the claim, which he should contend was founded in justice, policy, and good faith. The Hon. Member ,then entered again into the history of the circumstances upon which the claim of General Desfourneaux was founded, and maintained that it was of that nature which the Go vernment of this country was bound to consider, and to make good. General Desfourneaux had applied to the French Government, by whom he was referred to the Government of this country, as it was during our occupation of the Colony of Guadaloupe that his losses had been sustained. The claim was after wards referred to a Committee of that House, who recommended that it should be allowed. It was as the Chairman of that Committee, that he (Mr. Irving) felt it his duty to introduce the subject to the House; and he thought it would not discharge its duty if it did not sanction the motion with which he should conclude. It was for the honour of this country that such a claim as the present should not remain unsatisfied. France had set an example in this re spect which we should imitate. She had admitted claims, and some of them of a much older date than this, to the amount of four or five millions sterling. It was because he thought the honour of the coun try concerned in this question that he should occupy the attention of the House while he read several do cuments contaieing certificates cf the validity of the Gmeral's claim. The Hon. Mcm;:er the n ten d ex. tracts from a vast number of documents, and con cluded by moving , That the sum tat £26,006 its. ed. be granted to his Ma jesty, in order to be paid to General Seeping% Baron Desfour wain, or his descendants, as compensation fur bosses sustained by him at the capture of Guadalnupe in 1794 ; and that the tame be paid without any deduction whatsoevete." Mr. BANKES objected to the motion. He was of opinion, that a Committee on this subject had not been at all necessary ; and he was surprised that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should have so easily I consented to the revision, by a Committee, of a claim for public money, on which the. Board of Treasury had previously decided, after the most mature deli beration. On the first application on behalf of Gene ral Desfourneaux, the Treasury referred the matter to be examined by the Comptrollers of Army Ac counts; and they reported that it had no foundation whatsoever in justice or equity. However, for one part of his claim, which had some kind of equitable ground, k was recommended that General Desfour neaux should receive the sum of 40,000 francs. Af terwards, in 1819, he sent in a fresh application, with new documents to support it ; but on an inspection of these by the same Comptrollers, they stated that their former opinion of the claims not being well founded was strengthened. Under these circum stances, and not considering the House bound by what had been done by the Committee up stairs, he (Mr. Wilkes) should object to the motion. Mr. IRVING admitted that Government might have done better than to consent to the appointment of the Committee ; but the House should recollect that the claims of General Desfourneaux had come to them sanctioned by the strongest testimonials of the validity of the grounds on which they rested, and that Government was bound to have them considered; though he agreed that Ministers would have acted better to have satisfied them at once, out of those funds which came into our possession from many sources of a kind similar to that of the capture of Guadeloupe. Mr. P. GRENFELL agreed that the claim ought not to have been allowed to come before the House: but, the question now was, whether the recommenda tion of the Committee up stairs was made upon grounds which should be attended to? He thought the claim ought to be satisfied, though he could not but express his surprise that such a period, as from 1794 to 1818, should be allowed to elapse before the claim was made. That, however, he admitted ought not to bar any claim which might be founded on jus tice. The Hon. Member concluded by moving an Amendment, that the sum of £l4BB 2s. 4d. which the Treasury had formerly thought due, be inserted for the sum of £20,006 12i. 6d. Mr. K. DOUGLAS, in explanation of the conduct of the Committee, said, they had examined die claims upon equitable principles, without reference to the decision of the Treasury. The Treasury, in fact, had admitted the justice of a part of the claim ; and, un der all the circumstances, he thought the Committee could not possibly come to a decision different from chat disclosed by their Report. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, it was a new doctrine to him that the House would be guilty of a crime in not acceding to the Report of its Committee. The C H A NC ELLO Rof th e EXCH EQUER wished the House to judge of what course ought to be taken by the'English Government when the claimant ap pealed from their decision to that of his own Court. It then became a question between nation and nation, and it was not to be forgotten that the French Go vernment had acted with great liberality in deciding upon British claims. It was thought proper, under these circumstances, to bring the question under the consideration of Parliament. He thought the Com mittee had acted with fairness and impartiality, and he trusted no Honourable Member would oppose their Report, without making himself perfect master of the subject. For his own part, he had heard no thing to induce him to dissent from the Report of the Committee. Sir F. OMMANEY opposed the original motion, and said he should vote for the smaller sum. Mr. WARRE said, the Committee had distinctly stated there was no written evidence of the contract upon which the claimant relied. If claims like these, at the distance of twenty-six years were to be al-; lowed, he should cease to . wonder at the expense ofl our wars—(Hear). Mr. FORBES rose amid lcud cries of ef Question." As Hon. Gentlemen had patiently listened to many speeches against the claim of an absent individual applying for justice, he trusted they would hear a very few words in support of it. The Committee had decided that the claim was founded in equity, and he thought it would be an imputation on the justice of the House not to act upon it. After a few other observations in support of the claim, the Hon. i Member concluded by expressing his intention to vote for the original motion. Mr. W. SMITH said he did not agree with either l side of the House. He thought only a small part of the claim had been proved. but that part, he thought, should be paid with interest. The sum to which he considered the claimant to be entitled was £3,200. Mr. T. WILSON expressed himself in favour of the original motion. Mr. Alderman WOOD said, he rarely agreed with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in voting public money, but, in the present case, he should vote for the larger sum. Mr. HUME wished to know whether the Commit tee was a select or an ordinary one? If it was a Select Committee he would vote for the original motion.. Mr. IRVING said it was a Select Committee. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared— . For the Original Motion e - - - - For the Amendment Majority for giving the larger cum, £30,006 19.5. - S 3 - 19 ..-34 IRISH ESTIMATES. Mr. C. GRANT, in rising to propose grants for the Irish Miscellaneous Estimates, said, he was sorry to say, that to some of the votes he could hot give his unqualified approbation, though they were considerably reduced. The institutions in support of which the money was proposed to be voted, were so long established, that it was not possible to re duce them as speedily as could be wished. He pro posed £20,000 for the Protestant Charter Schools of Ireland. Mr. HUME objected to the sum proposed. Public money for charitable purpose% when it got into the hands of persons, was too often a job. The grant originally fur this Institution was considerably less than the sum now proposed, airkl expr; ; ,;ed h hope that it would at least be brought back to the pro. per standard. Mr. MNAUGHTEN protested against- the char ge made by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, who de s i t . nated the Charitable Institutions of Ireland as jobs, In Dublin more distressed objects were found th an in London, and it was important to hive Charitable Institutions. The Hon. Member was wrong in sup. posing those Institutions were mere " jobs." Th ey were fairly and humanely conducted. Mr. HUME, in explanation, said, he did not me the word " job" upon his own authority. H e 1, 4 received a letter from a Noble Lord, who stated that public subscriptions for charitable purposes in Ireland, fell short or the desired object, and became a" j o b . , Several Members exclaimed—None! name ! Mr. HUM E gave the name of Lord Cloninrr r the writer of the letter. He said he had, on a f occasion, brought a gross job ander the notice of the lion. Gentleman opposite : the House of Industry, i n Dublin has) always possessed five Governors till he (Mr. Hume) complained of that number as being unnecessary ; and he now found that the Right Hoag, Secretary had reduced four of those Governor s . Mr. DAWSON did not consider the letter sufficient authority to induce the House to consider all Choi. table Institutions as a job. The Resolution was finally agreed to. The sum of £30,000 was then voted for the expen se of the Foundling Hospital, Dublin. For the House of Industry, Ireland, £92,600. £960 was proposed as Retired Allowances to th e late Governors of the House of Industry. Sir JOIIN NEWPORT opposed the grant, on the ground that those pet sons retired, and for doing no . thing, had more than double the salary paid to the person who discharged the duty. Mr. C. GRANT expressed himself unwilling to press the Resolution if the House felt a disposition to resist it, and consented to withdraw the Motion—. He then moved, that I:5500 be granted to defray the expense of the Lunatic Asylum. Mr. HUME objected to what he considered as extraordinary item in the Estimate, namely, Eln for snuff!—(Lnughter). Mr. DAWSON said, however ludicrous the thing might appear, he knew snuff to be a source of coin. fort to unhappy lunatics, and it would be almost cruel to deprive them of it.—Resolution agreed to. The teat voted for the Hibernian School was - - XBO,OO For defraying the expense of the Hibernian klarir:e Society - For the Female Orphan House - - For the Lock Hospital, Dublin - For the support of Dr. Stevens's Hespi:al For the Fever Hospital in Dublin - For the Hospital of Incurables - 1,600 - '2,400 - 3,500 - 1,400 - 4 r - :43 The sum of £6,454., for the School for promoting the Knowledge and Practice of the Christian Reh• gion in Ireland, on being proposed by Mr. C. GRAS; Mr. S. RICE objected to it. Colonel BARRE supported the motion. Toe Ro• man Catholic Clergy, in many instances, had not ce• jetted to these schools. o,t the cont:ary, they had enjoined the children to go to them. The object was not to make converts. Mr. S. RICE read an extract from the Fourteenth Report of the Committee of Inquiry in Ireland, in which it was stated, that no system of education ought to he adopted in Ireland which could interleaf with religious feelings. Mr. R. MARTIN supported the motion. Mr. HUME said the Institution had taken a new character. Sir JOHN NEWPORT supported the objections of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Hume). He did not doubt that the statement made by the Hon. Member opposite (Colonel Barre) respecting these Schools was perfectly correct, as far as they had come under his supervision. But it did not follow that because he had not been witness of it, there were not some parishes where the interference stated by his Honour► able Friend was objected to. Mr. HUME stated, that he should not opposethe vote on the present occasion, but if it were not re. duced one half next year he certainly should. ;The vote w•as then agreed to; and after anotherof £10,700 for the Green Coat Hospital at Cork had been agreed to, the CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Monday. MISCELLANIES. Mr. GORDON gave notice, on behalf of an Hon. Prima, then absent (Mr. Grenfell), that it was his intention, os Mon day, to take the sense of the House on the grant of £20,006 to General Desfoumeaux. Mr. 1111.1 ME asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whetter it was his intention to persevere in a vote of £50,0100 to It poor Clergy ? if so, he should oppose it in every stage, and uks the sense of the House upon it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER declared to intention of persevering in this vote. Sir J. NEWPORT gave notice that he should early in de next Session move for a Connnittee to inquire into tLc apprs. priation of certain funds granted by Queen Anne for the appaat• meat of Hospitals in England and Ireland. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in answer tir a question from Mr. Hume, fixed Monday next for bringing :7 the Report on the. Grant to the Duke of Clarence. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and as House adjourned at Half-past One. An article from Trieste, of the 27th May, state that the report of ALI Paula's death appears to be confirmed ; that the army by which he ..vas besieged had been destroyed ; and that his treasures hai falls into - the hands of the Greeks. It is added that I Senate had been formed at Janina and Suli, the capful of the Suliots, which had taken the reins of adest• nistration into their banes, and issued Proclamations. EAST INDIES.—By letters from Ponibay we Jean, that twenty ships have. been taken up by the Visible: Governor, on board of which 50(k) troops off' barked, destined to tha Persian Gulf, to ieyairthe late disaster. The gallant General LIoNSL Sans has been selected tor this important service; and we have no doubt but that he will convince de Arabs of the impolicy of their treacherous prance' ings, and justify the high confidence which the Ga vernment of Bombay have in his talents and valo ur. His Excellency Mr. ELPHINSTONS, completely re' covered, is gone on a tour to Kutch, to se.tle all dw putes, and to ascertain the true situation of thecae' try. H6W important it is for the Head , of the Pl . o. sidencies thus to judge from actual observation , III: stead of trusting to mere reports! This proves benefit of appointing men of experience and energy in the conduct of our Indi a n Empire, wbkli IS n °° ' through the admirable conduct of the Governer- 0 : : ueral, and the two other Presidencies, in a s:ate of unexampled tranquillity and prosperity.. ava del a: p co tic tig