Star. — London, England, 1821-03-10 00:00:00

... ~ . I l llb , \•, .PARLII4IIIE - NTiltir PRCTJEEDINGS. • mniMmm•lMl 106 LO " 4 0 " lb d r.: 409 USE RIIII, 11A1C11 9. Their Lordships met at ten o'clock t sk sir Appeals. Casks C.:steam:oil, Ewa. appellant; G meow respondent.— Taverns appeal an from the decision at the Cou rt: of Chancery (Ireland).—Their Lordships reversed the judgment of the Court below. • - Itionnes appellant; :ma Rutz or Ross, rewasdent.—This Iras an ap peal from the decision of the Court of Chancery (Ire land).—Their Lordships affirmed the judgment of the Court below. Tits MOM INDIA COKFAMK, appellants; ICTIIMITON, nrspendent. —This was an appeal from the decision of the Court of Ex. cWquer (England).—Their Lordships Ahmed the judgment of the C.ogn below. Mawr', appellant ; Parrs, respondent.—Thie was an appeal from the-decision of the Court of Session (Scotland). —Their Lordshill reversed the judgment of the Court below. Lotewoisss, appellant; Vaxsuarrome, respondent.—This was in appeal from the Courtof Session (Scotland).—Mr.Wzruzast.t. replied.—Judgment postponed. - DININTOITN, appellant; Liett.te, respondent.—This was an ap peal from the Court of Session (Scotland).—The ATIOILNIY. Gzstsnat was heard for the Appellant, and Mr. Wrrumszt. and Mr. DAMAN for the Respondent.—Judgment postponed. Mr. Beaman and other Members brought up from the Ifouse of Commons the following Bilk :—the Stock Transfer Bill, the Nova Scotia Trade Bill, and the New South Wales Duties Bill. Mr. Toszt.tas, from the Treasury, presented an Account of Warrants which had been issued by the Vice-Treasurer of ' Ireland. Mr. Momenta brought up, from the Commons, the Leices ter Gas Light Bill, and Mr. HART DAVIS the Bristol GAS Light Bill, which were read a first time. The Earl of SIIA FTESBURY presented a Petition from the Corporation of Beverley, in Yorkshire, against the Catho lic Claims. The Offenders' Transportation Bill was read a third time and passed. . The Marquis of LANSDOWN presented a Petition against any alteration in the Duties on Timber imported from North America. The Noble Marquis next moved for atteAccOunt of the quantity of Goods exported during the last year from Great Britain to France, distinguishing the flags of the several vessels in which the said goods were exported.—Ordered.—The House adjourned to Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. BYNG brought in a Bill to establish a Company for the better lighting the bletropolis with Cu, which was read the Srst time. Sir ROBERT WILSON gave notice, that on the 20th of March, he would, if it were necessary, move for the produc- An of the Letter of Sir W. A'Court, the Bridals Ambassador Naples. Lord PALMERSTON presented Papers connected with the Medical Expenses of the Army.—Laid upon the table. Lord ALTIIORPE postponed the second reading of the County Courts Bill, which stood for this day, to Thursday next. Mr. STUART WORTLEY postponed to Tuesday next, the' further consideration of the Grampound Disfranchisement Bill. Lord CASTLEREAGH moved for Copies of any recent Accounts received from any of his Majesty's Ambassadors at foreign Courts, of the prices of Corn in those countries. Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved that there be laid before the House an Account of all Sums of Money paid by the Commis sioners of Excise in Ireland, for seven years last past, for Stamps and Law Proceedings.—Ordered. Sir G. HILL begged the Hon. Baronet, Member for the Queen's County, would postpone the second reading of the Tithes Leasing Bill, which stood for this day. Sir IL PARNELL consented, and die second reading was postponed to Wednesday next. BREACH OF PRIVILEGE. Mr.STUART WORTLEY rose to call the atten tion of the House to a breach of privilege of the grossest nature imaginable—(Hear, hear).—They all knew that by some means or other the debates of that House were published; and they might be informed, that by some unexplained mode—by stealth—the Lists of Majorities and Minorities upon various mo tions were published also—(ticar, hear).—When he , said this, he begged to add, that he was one of those who were for the debates of that House being so pub lished, and even for the lists of votes going forth to the world from time to time. For his own part, he never gave a vote is Parliament that he was not ready to acknowledge anywhere - else, or of which he was averse to meet the publication—(Cheers).—But While this sort of connivance was thus allowed, it behoved the House to take great care that its per mission was not abused; and he thought they should also take care that there should be no Lists made out, flatly stating on the face of them the foulest falsehoods—(Cries of Hear, hear)—declaring that the House of Commons had voted on motions which had never been submitted to them, and given false co lours to the proceedings altogether. He would now read the libel, which was contained in the Morning Chronicle, of February 26th : it was in these words— " List of the minority of 37, who voted, on Friday la,t, the 23d, for hearing the Petition of Thomas Davison read before it was rejected ; and against Lord Castlereagh's admonition to the People of Eng land, not to trouble and take up tlut time of the House of Commons any more with their Petitions." (Loud cheers from the Opposition).—He (Mr. Stuart 'Wortley) confessed that he was surprised to hear those cheers—(Cheers).—He could scarcely tonceive that he was then sitting in the House of Commons—(B laugh)—that lie was standing, at least, in the House of Commons. Did he understand from those Hon. Members opposite, that they meant to affirm this statement ?—(Checring from the Opposition).—Why then, under these circumstances, he thought the next thing to be done was to refer to the Journals of the House ; for they must have it stated there what the vote really was. He maintained that that title to the List, in point of fact, referred to what had passed during the debate. He did say, that there never was, and he hc.ped that there never would be made, in Parliament, a proposition such as had been said to have fallen from a Noble Lord; nor did he be. lieve that there was any man in the country who would have the boldness to get up in his place in that House, and utter any such thing. This List, thus headed, he considered to be a libel on the House of Commons; and it was a false libel to say that there was any proposition made, or that any part of the House voted for a proposition to reject Petitions before they were read. The List was a List of the Minority if there was a minority, he took it for • granted there must have been a majority also, con nected with the same question. Now, who were those who composed that majority ? He challenged the Honourable Gentlemen opposite to p ro d uce a single vote of this sort upon his (Mr. Wortley's) side 'of the House. It was no trifling matter that libels were not only allowed to be published; but when a libel of this gross nature was brought before the House of Commons, there were Honomeable Mem- .. bers .who, cheered—( Cheers)—they cheered it-4,Loud cfseets).—:“ Sir, (continued the Hon. Gentleman) — they cheer!—(Loyder cheert):—it is to be cheered, iiiw as (Contismcd cheeriv)...HOSourable Members may cheer."—(scessive cheering).--. l t Mr. Spqakart under these circualstances I appeal to you." The SPEAKER - " Order, order." Mr. S. WORTIIY-- 44 So long as I am a Member of this House, I have a right to vote."—( Vehement cheering). The SPEAKER—e 4 Order, order." Mr. S. WORTLEY-" I can assure the Hon. Gen tlemen, that they will not deter me."—(Hear, hear). He apprehended that his own conduct was perfectly constitutional; he had as great a veneration for the Constitution of the country as any other Hon. Mem ber ; and in that spirit, he said that the libel became of tenfold consequence, when, having read it to them, Honourable Members cheered, as if they meant to assert that that was true which he defied them to prove. If there had been any vote of this sort, there were the Journals of the House of Commons to refer to; and they could prove •whether such a vote had ever been concurred in. No parties had a right to charge any Members of the House of Commons, sup posing it to be true even, that the Noble Lord had used those expressions which had been attributed to him, with having adopted those expressions, because they might have voted on the same side with the Noble Lord. Was it come to this, that everybody who voted on a question was to be taken as adopt ing all the observations which had occurred in the course of the discussion ?—(Hear, hear, hear). — If this doctrine was to be affirmed, there was an end to all freedom of debate. He should not have taken so much notice of this libel if he had not seen ano ther publication giving a notice of a late minority ; which notice was undoubtedly not so bad as this, but which was still very unfair, as to the vote come to by the House upon the occasion to which it referred ; and that was the other night upon a motion that was brought forward by an Honourable Member for the reduction of taxes—(//ear-but of this it was not his intention to complain. It did so happen that on neither of these cases was he himself present : he was not in the House either time; but he did now call upon the House of Commons, more particularly after what had occurred since he had taken his place, to assert their privileges, if they meant to preserve an • freedom of debate—(Hear, hear). He should, upon these grounde) move in the first place that the libel be read by the Clerk. The Clerk read it accordingly. The Honourable Gentleman then moved, " That J. Lantbert, the Printer and Publisher of The Morn law Chronicle, be called to the Bar of the House on Monday next." No Member rising to second the motion, The SPEAKER. twice inquired'who seconded it? After a short interval, Mi. Serjeant ONSLOW rose to second the motion. Mr. G. N N Err said, he was not in the House on the evening whel the division took place, and tneretnre was not able to affirm or contradict the state.,.ent in the paper on the table. He wished, however, to express his satisfaction, that the Hon. Member had plucked up courage enough to stand forward, and bring this complaint before the House himself ; for the last time they had beard anything reflecting on the House of Commons, which was brought before it by way of complaint, the Honour. able Gentleman had left this duty to another person —(Hear, hear).—From all that he (Mr. Bennett) had heard, he believed every syllable contained in this heading to be true—(" Not one toord,"front the Trea sury Bench).—He did not mean to say this, as applied to the vote, as if it had been so agreed to in terms, but as applied to its substance--(Hear, hear).--of, this there could be, he thought, no manner of doubt. With regard to the complaints of the Hon. Gentle man, he had not said that jot was not content with the publication of these lists of divisions. If he had, he Mould have taken a very singular step ; for, since he (Mr. Bennett) had first heard of this discreet in tention of the Right lion. Gentleman, lie had looked over the public Journals, and had been at some pains t. ascertain how long the practice had prevailed.— In the year 1703, he met with the publication of a division in the House of Commons, which account he believed to be the earliest of this nature. (The lion. Gentleman here enumerated a variety of others. Among them were divisions upon the expulsion of Stevens, a Member, i.s 1711; on the Excise Law, in the House of Lords, &c. down to the year 1742.) — From the year 1712 to the present period, there was no end of those public lists ; many of them with titles, and many of them without; and this was the first in• stance, lie believed, in which a complaint bad been made of them, particularly where very doubtful words were a part of the question. The Hon. Gen tleman bad warmed himself into very great choler on this subject, when he found that there was not upon that (the Opposition) side of the House the same sensibility that he (Mr. Wortley) seemed to feel— (Laughter)--but, on the contrary, that of those Ho nourable Members, they who had been present at the discussion considered that the substance of the beading of the list in question was true—(Cheers). — Now he (Mr. G. Bennett) having nothing at all to do with the publication of these lists, and knowing nothing at all about the matter or manner of their publication, did consider himself entitled to say that the substance was correct ; and whether it suited Ho nourable Gentlemen to avow their conduct or not, when it was sent forth to the Public—whether or no it suited them to avow what they were not ashamed to do in that House—(Hear)—was another question. He was not, however, at all surprised to perceive, that when Hon. Gentlemen found that it was so to go forth to their constituents, they should feel ashamed that it was to be published—(Hear, hear).—The Ho nourable Gentleman (Mr. Wortley) was, indeed, very discreetly put forward on this occasion, because he had not been present at the transaction. Now he (Mr. Bennett)—for one really did not exactly know how he was to meet this question brought forward by the Hon. Gentleman—he knew of no other way than moving " that the House do now adjourn" (Hear). Mr. C. LONG professed to be ignorant of the rea son of the application of the-words, "plucking up courage," to his Hon. Friend, than whom no man more fearlessly or zealously performed his duties. And when the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bennett) charged 'his Hon. Friend with unbecoming warmth, he would ' ask, did such a charge come well from that Hon. Member? Though the Hon. Gentleman had per formed good services to the Public, yet, for an im partial and dispassionate inquiry, he (Mr. Bennett) was not the man whom he would particularly *elect. The complaint here was not against the publication of the names of a Majority or MiOrity, hut that a question was stated to have been advocated by one side, and opposed by another, iwhich never came be fore the House. His Noble Friend never said that the Petitions of the People ought us be shut out, and; that they should be admonished wit to trouble the House with Petitions. He had said, that the matter of a Petition, as well as the terms of it, was a fit subject for the consideration of the House; and this explanation was so often repeated, that it was a mat ter of surprise how it could be misunderstood. Sir ROBERT WILSON, not having been present at the discussion' alluded to, of course found it ills possible to affirm or deny the truth of what was stated in this paper ; yet he could not but congratu late the Country on the good sense, the discretion, and the sensibility which were manifested by the Ho nourablo Gentlemen opposite—(Hear, hear). He did take it as a good omen that Gentlemen on that side of the House would be more cautious in future how they supported particolar measures by their votes. But he begged to ask, what had been the conduct observed when one of the grossest libels that ever was published was brought under the notice of that House? Not only had that libel been written by the Moderator and Presbytery of Langholm, but it had been officially printed in the King's Gazelle— (Hear, hear). He did trust that Government, in this case, would, as they were powerful—not like them (the Opposition)—(.4 laugh)—imitate the conduct of Opposition on that occasion ; and, as they could bet ter afford to shew it, extend their indulgence to this party—(Hear). Ile certainly could not justify the article in question ; but- though it might be thought irregular, he did hope the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Wortley) would consent to withdraw his motion. Mr. CREEVEY hoped the Honourable Gentle- , man would forgive him for saying that, of the many instances of indiscretion which he bad witnessed in that House, this was the most extraordinary and pe culiar one. As lie understood the motion, the ob jection taken to the Printer of the Chronicle was two fold. He had said, that this was a list of a mino rity who voted for hearing the Petition of an indivi dual before it was rejected; and then he described it as a minority , 4 against a Noble Lord's admonition to the People of England not to trouble and take up the time of the House with their Petitions." Now, the first part of this was true, because he (Mr. Cree vey) himself voted for the Petition being read before it was rejected. With respect to the second part of the objection, he certainly, so far as the impression on his own mind went, did hear the Noble Lord say upon the occasion alluded to, that he admonished the People of England not to trouble the House of Com mons with their Petitions--(Hear, hear). Various explanations Were given. He could not, for his own part, suppose that the Noble Lord ever meant to' broach such a proposition—(Hear, hear). Now, the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Wortley) complained also, that he was not to be taken in, and along with tl e Noble Lord, because he mi,3lit hap,,en to vote with hint—(Hear)—that he was not to be implicated in whatever might have been aivanced in the course of a discussion. Su long, therefore, as such a senti ment was indulged; expressions like those of the No ble Lord were a very proper indiscretion to be ani madverted upon. If the Printer of the Morning Chronicle had noticed the minority in this way, one indiscretion was coupled with another, and he hoped the Hon. Gentleman would withdraw his motion. Mr. WALLACE said, the question was simply this—whether, in animadverting on the Noble Lord's indiscretion, if the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Cree , vey) would have it to be such, this Printer was justi fied in casting a most gross and unfounded imputa tion, not only on the character of the Noble -Lord, but on that of the House of Commons also ?—With respect to what had been said of the Address from Langholm, he should observe, that on that occasion no Member rose to justify it, but the material differ ence between that and the subject at present before the House was this—whether the Hon. Member was not called upon to press this matter when the li bel was affirmed by Gentlemen opposite? Sir JOHN NEWPORT had heard the words used by the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), on the evening al luded to, and certainly, until the Noble Lord quali fied the words, they were of a nature to create the impression to which the paragraph complained of al luded. The Noble Lord had, however, qualified his meaning, within bounds which would not justify the allusion. It had been said, that no Member had risen on a former occasion to justify the Address from Langholm; true, but let it be recollected that the publitation of that Address was the deliberate act of the Secretary of State for the Home Department be fore it was mentioned in the flouse—( Hear, hear). , -- Most certainly the House had pronounced an opinion upon the libel; and but for that he would have taken the sense of the House upon it, in consequence of the manner in which it had been published. The Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had used words with respect to the presentation of Petitions, which at first struck him as bearing the construction put upon them, but the Noble Lord had afterwards qualified them. As well as he (Sir John Newport) could recollect the words of the Noble Lord, they were these : " I would really request Gentlemen to admonish those who bring them Petitions not to burthen the House with them in the manner they do."—These were, as well as he recollected, the wor d s o f t h e Noble Lord ; but he had afterwards qualified them. The discussion on that occasion was, whether a Petition should be re ceived,'complaining of the conduct of a Judge in a Court of Justice; and certainly, if Petitions respect fully worded, and complaining of a Court ofJustice, were handed to him, he should think it quite within the province of his duty to present them to that House, because he felt that there were many cases of complaints against Courts of Justice, in which, if the House did not interfere, the party complaining would be without redress. On the whole, though he could not sanction the assertion of the paragraph, yet he trusted that the motion of the Honourable Gentleman would not be pressed. Mr. HUSKISSON approved of the suggestion, that it would be expedient not to prosecute this com plaint any further. His only difficulty in acceding to it was, that he apprehended that the sentiments of some Members with respect to this misrepresentation might be considered as the feelings of the House.— The House ought not to be indifferent to the pre sumption which would ascribe motives to its Mem bers for the vote they might choose to give . Much as he con fi ded is the candour of th e Member for V u A n "l lim eb ite y d (M po r w . eCrreevof eatibUttiwngtilt.ole63acflAletil Motives upon which he voted. Mr. S. WORTLEY was sure that the ei • which the House had of his character scold 76 it unnecessary for him to enter i nto its defenteren moment ; yet to thellonourablel%l em b er whorl:tutha,t, it pertinent to say-of him (M r . W ort l ey) that plucked up courage for this o ccas i on, he shonldle l ora. —v say, that he could do his duty there and e y stme _ -- -1 quite as well as that Hon. Gentlemass—mt eers 7 He was taunted with indiscreti on , but was it to defend that which was absolutely fabe? the imputation that he had been put forward„„.," this occasion, he repelled it ; h e never was, be .791 would be put forward as the instrument of a m .',„„, sons. The Honourable Gentleman suppursercio party in the House ; he (Mr. Wortley) supp ort other. He gave the Honourable Gentleman the rA L of sincerity, and expected o n ly the sa me j ustice c 'T himself. He might be mistaken in his course, h a : would not be put down by the exclansatiuu,L.Z. was put forward upon this occasion. He Wald peat, he never was, and never would be, th e to be put forward for the convenience of a ny per — i i i ` Sir M. W. RIDLEY rose to or d er . Mr. S. WORTLEY insisted on being alloss e d i explain his motives, when he -was charged aid"; much warmth by the Hon. Member for Slire su (Mr. Bennett). He was sorry to bring the piQ to the bar, for he thought there were Gentlentesi that House whose justification of the printer wa worse than the libel itself—( Hear, hear).—wh es ; heard Gentlemen on the othe r s id e stand up u• defend the writer of the paragraph in quest* thought the matter ought not to be let•pass witu i censure—(Hear, hear).—For his part he had no* jection to withdraw his motion, if these G.„., wo it wd u al heds written Hrnnio u n d e r s t and r s o sra motion,o mt y i aon th idlfh e aotesrht par a graph eeuo,m. opootrosfcitrynootniuoalakien.• such yc i n n o c e n tmha t n i na b e at m l hdt , eom f i press sV t ° l wa not a libel which pointed out certain Member s d that House as voting upon a proposition width us I never made in that !louse? (Hear,,from the M. serial benches ). Under such circumstances the Hens would be wanting to a sense of its own dignity, di' did not bring the printer to the bar, and at Jena monish him. With regard to the substance.' is libel it mattered not ; whether the Noble Lord the words or not, that was not the question—theeed question was, whether there was such a motion en the House as the paragraph assorted cotainHern. hers voted upon—(Hear, bear).—lf there was se such a motion, then was the paragraph most and the House of Commons should not allow ate pass unnoticed. And what was the falsecharge thus laid at the door of the House of'Commons? Why, nothing less than that the majority supported the admonition to the People to give over petitiudrg that House—thus charging them with assenting to the extinction of the dearest privilege of the Brisk Constitution—(Hear, hear).—Howerer, if the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, or those Gentlemen who cheered him (Nlr.Wortley) when he rose, - would now but say that the author of the paragraph had coca mined an indiscretion, he would be satisfied; all hi ends would be answered ; for his only wish was, that by a well-timed admonition iu,this-case, the recur. ranee of these things pidght .be guardedagainst for the future—(Hear, bear). Lord CASTLEREAGH said, the paragraph had been pointed out to biro, and it was said he ought to complain of it to the Houk, as it was, perhaps, a false, detestable, and wicked a libel as ever appeared —(A lauob, from the Opposition)—on the Home of Commons. He thought, however, that as a Maim of the Crown, the task of complaining to the Hums would look rather invidious; and besides, itocoured to him, that the extreme absurdity and contemptible character of the paragraph, would render it inooziose even in the meanest capacity. Now that the matte was brought before the House, he would not hesitate to say, that the House should not let it pass without some mark of reprobation. But could anything be more absurd—would any reasonable man believe that he (Lord Castlereagh), standing up in his place, . would speak against, or' impose restrictions as the right of petitioning? Why, what was the fact? Oa the very night in question no less than a dozen Peti- tions were presented t o th e H ouse; a nd he did say,' certainly, what he would now repeat, that it was Wt . an act of kindness to war d s th e P et iti on e r s, to 10 them, how useless it was to be bringing up Petithes to that House on subjects in which they' should be aware that the House could give them no rell6- But how far was this from the ridiculous insinuation thrown out, that he had said this House ought to be no longer troubled with Petitions, that he wishe d petitioning were at an end. The thing, to any br man, was in itself so palpable, that he thought"' paragraph below contempt—though he now aped that it was fit to punish even those who would me lead the ignorant by such absurd and wicked ter sentations. Having said thus much, he hardly that he was called upon to give a more explicit dell of having used the words with the intention mew to him. What he said on the occasion of the Pa" against Mr. Justice Best was, that if the Fedi!! complained of any unjust or oppressive law, O the conduct of the Juge was corrupt, the could properly interfere ; but he doubted much, we" no such complaint was made, and when the dal"! was only as to-a point of law, whether the HettseL l. called upon, there being another and a more Pr place where the question could be set at rest-(7! hear). He also regretted that so many Petitiova.mr` presented of such a character as made it inc with the functions of the House to extend to thee!, prayed-for relief. This House was not a Cast___" Appeal in all matters, and still less in matters !of nected with the technical administration of —(Hear, hear).—These were the expressions berg as applied to that particular case ; but no man, r T ght warmer advocate than himself for the genet" of petitioning—(Hear, hear).) discreet, Lo rd A l; h A e N d i HAIL call for the serious attention of the Hous e. wished to know what difference there was _ tt saying certain Members had voted aealnmbsi tlti whole speech of the N o ble Lord, and that they Mr. s r.C ob C. il le LordUTC i i n lNroOtNcotohsoiudgerhtitthaes poufbalictatioa! voted against a part of it.—(Hear.) did not gwhichli mean to d in ia ; to the 004 ?tc I he the Lo Hu ing par t a g bi h via SUM G both 'Te r; mo i rib;] teiv his ii tjon tom ber, rect 'Out dui atid