Star. — London, England, 1822-07-24 00:00:00

_-,~ `' • ~~' ~, ~, ~~... S. ..-,-' r..? I I . 11 . , 77; ' 7*! 1 ,! 1171"714111 : • ^ • ••• • • • PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, JULY 23. Mr, Bitounan and ethers brought up from the Commons the following Bills :—The Scottish National Monument Bill, the Irish Public Works Bill, the Silk Bounties Bill, the Charge of , Fended Debt Bill, which were read a first time, and a message acr.ouncing that the Commons had agreed to the amendments made by their Lordships in the Scotch Juries Bill. The following Bills were then read a second time:—The Court of Exchequer Sittings Bill, the Exchequer Bills Issue Bill, the Salt Duty Reduction Bill, and the Ireland Money Re lief Bill.—Adjourned. lIOUSE OF COMMONS. Colonel WOOfigave - notice that, on Tuesday next, he would submit -certain Resolutions relative to the Law of Settlement. Mr. WALLACE brought up the Report of the Committee on Foreign Trade, which was ordered to lie upon the table, and' be printed. The East India Loan Bill was read a third time, and passed. Mr. LUSO IN ETON moved the third reading of the Stage Coach Iteulation Bill. After some words from Mr. Alderman Worm and Mr. Lusa nscroe, in reply, the Bill was read a third time, and passed. The :t ew South Wales Trade Bill was read a third time, and passed. The Malt Duties Collection Bill was read a third time, and passed. The Greenland Fisheries Bill went through a Committee. — Report to-morrow. 'l'he Irish Commercial Credit BiU was read a second time.— coinulittee to-morrow. Sir F. BURDETT presented a Petition front Henry Hunt, complaining against some of the regulations in Ikhester Jail. — Laid on the table. Air. W. W YNN presented a Petition from Bertrand Mit ford, Esq. one of the Commissioners of Inquiry into Courts of 3ustice in Ireland, complaining of certain charges brought against him 10 Chief Baron O'Grady, in his letter to the Under Secre tary of State for Ireland, and offering to disprove the truth of these charges by evidence at the bar of the, House.—Laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. SCOTCH PRESS. • The LORD ADVOCATE said, that his object in rising was to move for a paper connected with the case of Mr. Murray Borthwick, with the general out line of which the House was already familiar. He, and his Learned Friends had been charged with sanctioning, from undue motives, the prosecution of Borthwick, as a Government measure, though it was the case of Mr. Alexander, a private individual. This was a chArge which had been seriously made in this House: but, being partly taken by surprise, he (the Lord Advocate) was not at the time able to give it such a satisfactory answer as he otherwise could. He was not able to state then that in giving to the pro secution of Borthwick the sanction of a Government measure, there was nothing at all inconsistent with the general practice of the Bar in Scotland. When the Instructions given upon that occasion by the Ad vocate to the Clerk of the Court of Justiciary autho rising him to prosecute the cause in that Court were produced, enough would be disclosed to vindicate those who issued them from the charge of undue motives. It would be the object of his motion to obtain a copy of these instructions. Having said thus much, as the precise object he had in view for the present, he only wished to address one word to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Abercromby) opposite, hoping that he might be induced to give some explanation of some parts of his conduct in this whole affair, which, as they stood at present, did not present an appear ance of candour, or even rigid justice to individuals. From the evidence of documents, to which the House (Auld have access, it was now clear that in a great part of the statement made .by that Hon. Member, there were, to say the least, very many inaccuracies. In Scotland, where this fact became apparent, as soon as the statement was published, it was thought a Rule odd that he (the Lord Advocate), being in his place here, should suffer such untruths to go forth, without expasing them to the House. Perhaps, in not doing so', he had subjected himself to the charge of 'neglect ; but if the House would only grant its indul gence for a moment, he would explain the reasons of his silence. Silent he certainly was, but that silence did not arise from any indisposition to defend the in terests of the injured parties in this House, but from the charges having come upon him by surprise.— Had he had any intimation that such charges were to be brought forward, he would, of course, have made all inquiry into their truth or falsehood ; and he hoped his Leal would not fail him in applying the result in the most proper manner in that House. So far as he was himself concerned, he laid no blame to the Hon. and Learned Member, who, in the course which he took, was undoubtedly entitled to cantass the conduct of any public officer in that House, more especially when that officer was present to defend himself. He also felt that the Hon. Member had a difficult and important duty to discharge, and so far as the mode in which it was done was connected with himself, he made no complaint. But he had some reason to object to the Hon. Member, that in that part of his statement which referred to the Gentle men absent, and, therefore, incapable or defence, there was not that feature of candour, and perhaps, not of justice, which ought to characterise it. Having already explained the part which he (the Lord Advo cate) had in the transactions alluded to, it was trot necessary again to refer to it ; but it was due to his absent Learned Friends to state their share in these affairs. ,It was very true that in discuising the ques tion how Borthwick should be treated, some dif ference of:opinion sprang up between him (the Lord Advocate) and the tither adviser of the Crown, with Whose conduct he was now about to'deal. Mr. Hope' thought that Borthwick's conduct was so criminal,' that.the interference of the Clown in his prosecution was demanded ; ind if he was correct in that view, certainly nothing could have been more proper than to resort• to such interference; for. to withhold it only because the other party happened to be attached to the Crater!, woutd have been a dereliction of duty. He Idle Lord Actin - cite) did not agree With Mr.' 'Bops its his view of Dorthwick's case ; and not con sidetitigi it so very criminal, be thought the trial, was then pending, Would be prejudiced by anything like Govermnent interference. The deci sion which was ultimately come to the ITOnbe was 111 x -ignorant of; but he (the Lord Advocate) most tctititiVely denied that. it was from a wish to injure. Mr.*Stuart that an'Y steps were . 'Ain, and his falling to state so at the time .pioceeded from his inability to prom., by teferences, that such interference was con-1 i'stent with the practice of the Bit inSeothWid. lead agteed Wi t th Or. 114 Se, would baie been tried at. WasloW ; and if. Mi. Mope had useitad-withhins, this case would - never have vine such lengths as to cleseriretheattetaluirofthat Masse. But, he hoped the production of this document to I : • , prove ttet, thotight Ids (the told opinion clashed with that of his they were both actuated by pur e vi answer t hen such ample means of gig _ statement of the Honourable Member, he felt ranted in complaining that no intimation was gi that it was intended to bring forward such 'chat A Message from the Lords here announced their L ordshi p s' He cared not for himielf, but' va ' alsfsarobalsigd to y c e oncer s n a, The ed Petition wat Mr. Hope and Mr. Menzies, h tithieatmtbheerr,enotwas, only i na disregardi lte course to c p o u m r s m u e o d n c b o y a r t t h e e s y H , b o u ts ; . assent to sever al M lle. an indifference to the stricter laws of justice: He was not now raising the question upon the Hon. Mem ber's right to meet this subject in Parliament—that he would not deny. But where the whole inquiry turned upon facts—mere facts, which a later in iguiry would either disprove or confirm, he thought that the Mends of these Gentlemen should have had some previous intimation, and the effect of a first unjust impression be neutralized. The'Learned Lord then went on to complain, that even in the mode of giving notice of the motion, there was a want . candour. The notice was worded as if it was to apply to the conduct of the Lord Advocate only, and the press of Scotland, but when it came to be detailed, it then appeared to be a studied attack droll the whole Bar of Scotland. It was this want of can dour which placed him (the Lord Advocate) in the unpleasant situation of being obliged to listen to charges made against his friends n ittiouk being able to refute them, for he was at the time ignora nt of the facts of BOrthwick's case. He also complained, that in postponing the motion for this Session yester day, the Hon. Member did net give some further explanation as to the precise course which he meant to pursue. He (the Lord Advocate) did not wish the Hon. Member to recede from his declaration of prosecuting the case next Session, because it was his warmest wish, as it was that of Mr. Hope, that the whole subject should undergo the fullest investigh tion—(Hear, kear).—The Learned Lord concluded by moving, " That there be laid before the House a copy of the authority under which the Clerk of the Court of Justiciary empowered the Lord Advocate to grant his concourse to prosecutions before that Court at the instance of private parties, and the period at which those powers were first exercised." Mr. ABERCROMBY said, it was very painful to enter again into these matters, when to do so would lead to no useful purpose. Many strange proceed ings had arisen out of the present subject, but the most strange of them all was, that the Noble and Learned Lord, after having had an opportunity of replying to the charges at the time they were made, i should come down at this period of the Session, and enter again into'the discussion, for the sake of ar raigning his motives in the conduct he had thought proper to adopt. He should not object to the motion, nor to the production of any papers which any Gen.' tleman should think necessary to the intended in quiry. In consequence of what had fallen from the ' ) Learned Lord, he should briefly explain the course he took, and which he believed to be the plain, di.l rect, and manly course, under such circumstances. He first gave notice tha t he meant to bring forward the conduct of the Lord Advocate, in relation to the Press in Scotland. When lie did so bring it forward, he stated, to the best of his abilities and information, all the facts which connected the Lord Advocate and the other public Law Officers with the conduct of the Press; the influence which the Lord Advocate pos sessed, and the necessary effect of that influence having a good or a bad direction. The course which he then pursued he should feel justified in pursuing again under similar circumstances. But he protested against any one having a right to arraign his motives when so acting in the discharge of his duty. He knew by experience as well as any one what he was to expect in the discharge of that duty. He knew that he stood upon his own single responsibility ; and if, in preferring his charges, and in prosecuting this inquiry, he personally misconducted himself, be should do so at his own peril. He had had expe rience of the course intended tct be pursued towards public accusers, but he should not on that account shrink from performing the task which he had taken upon him. By his introducing the case of Borthwick in his motion, the Noble Lord declared himself taken by surprise, and said, that he (Mr. Abercromby) had no means of knowing that the Noble Lord was in fortned of the proceedings relating to that case. As the Noble Lord himself had conducted a part of the proceedings in the case of Mr. Stuart, he must be the last man in the world supposed to be ignorant of it. He had merely thrown out the case of Borthwick as one which shewed the connection of the Lord Advo cate and his Deputes with the Press. This had been his conduct, and upon it no one was warranted in arraigning his motives, as the Noble and Learned Lord had done. The Noble and Learned Lord now dissented from that, but he "said that his (Mr. Aber cromby's) conduct was unjust and unfair, and he knew of nothing which questioned a man's motives if a charge of injustice did not. He had facts in his possession at the time of making his statement, which, when they transpired, would convince the House of its fairness and justice, and also shew the fairness and justice of the Noble and Learned Lord's charge.— With regard to his not having given those Gentle. men notice of his intention, whom he alluded to in, his speech, he could not see how it was to be ex pected that he was to inform all the parties he might find it necessary to name, in the opening of a case which occupied three hours. . The LORD ADVOCATE said, he had not in tended to question the motives of the Honourable and Learned Member, but on the contrary, expressed him self perfectly satisfied at the manner in which the Ho-. nciurable and Learned - Member had made his charges against him, and stated that he had nothing to com plain of on that ant. werec d c e o au shotlin g officia l t u h t t n h • them t me h r s ot r oeags: have itvd e w t m o 0 au t d h l d e e haveGe nil e h T e e n n h w u who o fa i them acquainted with his intention. Mr. Sect. etary PEEL stated, that he should have po ma s n ed w th it e h m dr o e t w ion y e s w h t e i c r d h a t y h , e u H p o o n n . a t n h d Learned Gn esole e grounde i ! 'at it wds highly improper to call for the production df confidential communications between persons in 'die saute 'office. Mr. tBERCROMBY withdrew the motion afigr be was acquainted with the Right Hcn. Gentleman's intention, - because he did not wish to create useless discussion at that periodof the Session. The motion of the Lotti Advocate was agreed to. PIRACY. Mr. CANNING presented a Petition from certain Merchants, Underwriters, and Shipowners of Liver tpaoi n o l e , d b y complai nin g piracy, and requesting th o House towards their obtiining re dress. The Yeti fionerk stated, that their losses were occasioned prin manyltdshese a s s t s l i i s e t y an h ce ad of tli s e prin cipally in the West Indies, in consequence of the oua rmagadees to o f t S h p e a E n i n s h o s i i r t a A t e d s o ; r h a a i t t y a p o p o l i d c a t e t o s n o b had t be e n , n o hid applied to the Spanish Governmen:, but without effect. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that the first instance which he would mention to support the bllyecaemmilt t b i a t i r o b n a r w o a u s s a m cuarsdee Pe of pi, accompanied ni o a a c k co p m la p c a ei e , d l last, off Cape Antonia. Another instance occurred as recently as last March. This was accompanied by robbery, and murder, no doubt, would have follow e d, had it not been for the appearance in sight of an American ship.. The Right Hon. Gentleman trusted that -everything would he done by the Spanish Go vernment to prevent a recurrence of these excesses; but if it had not the power to: controul its colonies, protection ought to be afforded to our commerce by our own strength—( Hear, hear). Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, that when the Admiralty were first apprised of the hoisting of the Ins dependent flag, they gave orders for the seizure of such vessels as should, under that flag, commit de predations on the British property. Some seizures took place in consequence ; but a difficulty had arisen as to the necessary legal proof to bring home the charge of the different offences. The moment the Admiralty heard of the enormous outrage alluded to • by the Right lion. Gentleman, they inquired into the subject, and found that there was established off Cape , Antonio a nest of depredators, whose object was tc, seize upon all vessels not being men of war. In con sequence of this, an English man of war was dis patched to watch the place ; and a remonstrance was sent to the Spanish Court. The House would see that it would not be proper at present to make an hostile descent upon the place. There was reason to believe that the Spanish vessels would be ordered tol co-operate with our own for the purpose of extermi nating these outlaws. The Admiralty, however, were in general averse from giving convoy to foreign ves sels. He ought to state that the Captain Of one of our men of war was now obliged to absent himself from the country on account of his inability to answer a verdict of thirty thousand pounds, which had been obtained against him in consequence of his having toe hastily, and in the warmth of his feelings, seized upon a Spanish vessel which there was reason to be lieve was engaged in piracy. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that, if the question were one of unmixed piracy, there would be no difficulty whatever. But the vessels alluded to were in possession of commissions from alleged authority. This had occasioned an order of the Ad miralty in the year ISIS, directing the seizure of all vessels that were not equipped from a port belonging to the place which gave them commission, provided they had committed depredations upon British pro perty. As his gallant friend had stated, a legal dif ficulty occurred in consequence ; and the order was then extended in terms giving a power to seize these vessels upon reasonable grounds of suspicion that therbad been engaged in piracy. He had not since heard of any attack upon British property; and, with respect to the past, there was, in appearance, ever y disposition on the part of the Spanish Government to afford redress. No delay could be attributed to Go vernment, for they had not heard of the barbarous transactions alluded to by the Petition until the month of March in'the present year, and they applied to the Spanish Court immediately.—The Noble- , Marquis here referred to his owa letter to the Spanish Court, demanding salisfaction ; and to the answer of the Spanish Minister, stating that the strictest order had been given for the purpose of obtaining a discovery of the offenders, with a view to their punishment.— f A e t m e d e r fromi e a nG t h o e s e v e r n m m i elt , e a ss o th t z se fe subjects a h m a e d d a i t s i The Noble Marquis pr o ce e d e d t o o b ser v e , th at t h e which had met the English Government. He trusted that the House would be satisfied that Ministers were doing all in their power to insure the future protec tion of English subjects and their propertf, and to obtain satisfaction for the past outrage.—(flear). Mr. BRIGHT contended, that the persons who had committed these excesses ought to be treated, at once, as pirates. Mr. MARRYATT said, the communication be tween the English and the Spanish governments was undoubtedly very polite; but he thought it would be perfectly nugatory, as Spain had no power over her colonies. He thought these depredations ought to be prevented by English convoys, which should protect the commerce of all countries. The question was between society at large on the one hand, and a set of outlaws on the other. It was only yesterday that information had been received at Lloyd's of the seizure of two more English vessels by the marauders. The crews of these vessels, he understood had been cruelly tortured. He really could see no objection to English men of war acting vigorously without wait ing for further communication from the Spanish Court. Sir G. COCKBURN said, the difficulty was, there was no one of these vessels which had not a national character, in some paper, protection, or commission.. General (MSC° YNE spoke in favour of the adop tion of forcible measures in the first instance. fie however highly approved of the steady remonstrance of the Noble Marquis—(Near). •I Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, this question deeply affected our commercial interests,but still more deeply it affected our maritime character. He was sure the House would at all times be ready to support the Government in their endeavours to obtain redress for the brutal outrages mentioned in the.l'etition. lie thought that applications to the Spanish'Court on the subject, would be considered as merely complimen tary, inasmuch as Spain had but . a nominal authority over her Cohniles. But this circumstance . was an ad- • flee recognition of 'tbe iimiependent said, the sinesiien at present was. wait before we took the remedy He did not think that the time part, had yet arrived; but he drought -TON tbougkt the EaglishOdiseer silas had erred in the course of his duty, lied . sufeted in consequence of it, ought to be indenonitied—tOiatr.) The Petition was ordered to lie ots the table, a 4 be printed. CA N ADA. /Mi. Kr. ELLICE presented • a Petition from severe* Merchants of the City of London, (Insetted with • Canada, in favour of the Canada Union Bill. Aft g .- some farther observations from the How. Member is support of the Bill, Mr. BRIGHI contended that the Bill ought no t: to be passed in the present advanced state of the Set,•- sion. He thought it affected the rights of alt Le r % Colonies ; and, in the absence of the persons who. were, he conceived, to be injured by it, he would, i n his place, protest against this abominable measure,. and offer it every resistance in his power. Mr. M A ILItYATT spoke against the passing of the . Bill until those who were interested in it should fi st be consulted. Sir F. BURDETT thought great credit was due to Ministers for the liberal manner in which they had taken up the present questton; and he protested against the harsh language which had just been ap, plied to the Bill. Mr. WILMOT said there was nothing, whatever in this measure to justify the expressions of the Hon. Member (Mr. Bright). Mr. HUME did not think the introduction of this Bill at this petits(' was justified. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, that lie Nd likened this Bill to that abolishing the Legislature of Massachusets, only because it was, like it, an exam ple of the only interference of this Legislature %via the Constitution of any of her Colonies. He did rant compare them as to the amount of their sever ity.— His argument had entirely been misconceived ; and, as to harsh epithets, he had only said it was most in convenient to pass this measure without giving them an opportunity of declaring their sentiments. Ile had always been more friendly to the popular part; of our Constitution than to any other. He would always contend that a distant people had a right to be heard before a great change was effected in their interests and state; and he was much surprised to hear the sentiments of the Hon. Baronet (Sir Francis Burdett) so different from those usually. advocatel by him. When some change had formerly been mai'e. in the state of Canada, two years notice had been given. He, for one, protested against. this Bid, as violating the solemn claim of the Stitish —He had, when it was first spoken of in the Hou,e, declared that his objections were insurmountable, aid he was therefore astonished to hear it stated from the other side, that a strong expression of his-sentime::t was heard with surprise. Mr. W. SMITH hoped these objections to the Bill would not prejudice the painting of the Petition. Mr. ELLICE said that, if he had beer* aware of the sentiments uf , his lion. and Learned Friend (Sir J. Mackintosh), he would not have led his Majesty's Government so far as he had done upon an opposite supposition. He should really recommend Cie': the Bill be divided into two, and one passed this Session, and the other in the next. Sir JAMES NIACKINTOSII stated, that he Lai always belt objections from which it was impossib:e to recede. Though his. manner, from regard an.i friendship, must have been such as he was always anxious to preserve, he was surprised that mere man ner should have led him to suppose that he had with drawn his objections to the Bill. He approvek: , ithe suggestion of his Hon. Ft iend. It.was only the re commendation which he had offered before going in:o the Committee. He particularly approved of changes in feudal tenures in Lower Canada. Mr. ELLICE said, if he had n ot tin d ers: nod Horn. and Leatned Friend's objections to have been withdrawn, he would not have persisted as he had cone. He had stated so to his Hon. and Learned Friend. Sir J. MACKINTOSH begged leave to He had not been so presumptuous as to think that Bill ought to have been withdrawn from deference to him. Certainly he had only meant that his Her.. Friend ought slot to withdraw the Bill from me: c sonal consideration fur him. Mr. DENISON stated that he was aware of Hon. Friend (Mr. Ellice) having understood that (Sir James) had withdrawn his objections. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY pointed e.. 1 the difficulties of separating the Bill into two. feared, however, that there was no other course left for them to take but to separate it, or give it up fur the present Session. H e p ro p ose d, t h ere : ore , mat one Bill should be made of the branch of tie present for the incorporation of the two Canada Lo s iilature' , and leave the other two branches in a-sepai.ite Bill to be passed this Session. He very much feared that au opposition would be raised in the next Session,whizb would prevent the passing of the other Bill ; under the tone of protest adopted by the Hon. a: l3 Learned Gentleman, he believed it would scarcely practicable to do otherwise than postpone it. But must protest against the doctrine of the Hon. 3ni Learned Gentleman, that distant colonies could not :c wi , ely legislated for by the mother country. Mr. wiLmar observed that it wets the necessi:::r of Canada that had called for the 13111 this Session. Sir F. BURDETT regretted the course winds to be adopted with regard:to this Bill. The projected change was a must beneficial one, and he thought the objections to it were technical, and pressed wttli roc:* sculpt/loos zeal. Mr. BERNA L thought his Hon. Fr lend (the Men ber fur Westminster) ought to have attended in place, and convinced them by his arguments, wile" the Bill was di-cussed, rather than taunt the opposo* of it with technical objections. After a few words from Mr. BarGur, the Petitica was ordered to be printed. COLOMBIAN R EPUBL Mr. LENNARD rose to. bring before the [louse the motion of which he hid given notice, relative to the recognition by this countty of the Colombin Republic. He made no apology to the House tor troubling them on this subject, tu consideration of its importance to that interesting nation. He wished to know whether it. was. th o ught ne c e s sary to obtain, r ' - '11'" • .I*lF"' . -'' . .' ' "... t`. ? •• .4 . . . • • , - .a...-. . • • . i. • • •' * • ... . r• ... I Lord Abspates) own;' ' MilaßT 'a Petition feanullofpx.iiari Jitional rantrat for tit of his Him. Friend , yet ...,,, ' of aid treatment by theJ.ord President Hilisms,—(Hear, hear' pure mntives. Having Hopi, otherindges aintLawOfficersinflcotiand. I Mr. CANNING a itving an answer to the The LORD ADVOCATE said, that the Petitioner how long we should le Member, he felt war- had behaved contemptuously towards the Judges, into our own hands. no intimatio n was given and had been treated accordingly. for action, on °taper g forward such charges. I Mr. PEEL defended the Lord President. it dot far distant. ...- ~. env at concerned i The Petition was ordered to lie on the tAble. Mr. F. BUXTON ... - . ......1.4•• • 1,..A d.....AA in tit* cot I 1