Star. — London, England, 1822-02-16 00:00:00

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This day the I.onti CHANCELLOR took his scat on the Wool sack at half-past four o'clock. The Earl of SH AFT F.SBURY laid on the table a compara tive Statement of the Population of the United Kingdom from the year 1301 to the year 1821.—Laid'on the table, and ordered to be printed. The Earl of ASII BURNHAM presented a Petition from the On nets and Occupiers of Land in the neighbourhood of Ti*atiogs, complaining of Agricultural Distress, and praying for aef.—Ordered to lie on the table.—Adjourned. _ \'• HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Smitten took the Chair a few minutes before four. Two new Members then took the oaths and their seats. A person from the Bank of Pmgland laid on the table some papers relating to the amount of Bank notes in circulation.—Or tiered to be printed. On the motion of Mr. AIItRCROMIT the Edinburgh Police Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed. Mr. WILLIAM DU N DAS brought In a Bill to the same effect, which was read a first and second time, and ordered to Le committed. Lord ST A NLEY presented a Petition from certain Owners and Occupiers of Land in Lancashire, complaining of Agricul tural Distress.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. WYY I 1.1. presented a similar Petition from the North Riding of Yorkshire. The Hon. Member added some few ob servations on the dcpreciatiqn of agricultural produce, and on the rimsequent inability of farmers to sustain the great burden of taxation.—The Petition was read, and ordered to be printed. Lord N LIG ENT presented a similar Petition from the Oc cupiers of Land its the neighbourhood of Ayksbuey, in Bucking- The Noble Lord said the I'r:tit:oilers complained chiefly of exce-sive taxation, and of the defective state of the Represen t.:tion in that House. The Resolution on the latter subject was opposed ar the Meeting at which the Petition was agreed to by two only. The people felt aggrieved because, having gone with the country in the support of a long and arduous war, they had b.en deltnied by promises of relief on the coming of peace; but even now, after the seventh year of peace, they found no re lasitiou from their burdens, they saw nothing before them but a:esp.& and misery. In times of profound peace they were b bouiiiig unaer a war establishment system of taxation, and that :No with a reduced currency. The country had returned to cash payments, and consequently to a reduced currency, while t:,e salaries of the officers in the different departments of the :ate remained undiminished; and at the same amount which were during the war. His constituents felt Low wrong e::at system was, and implored the House to afford a remedy before things would come to a crisis, beyond which their suffer ings would he intolerable. On that very night, probably, it would ne determined whether that fearful crisis WAS or was not ape ; roaching. Ills constituents did not think that any relief could Ts afforded ahem by taxing the consuming population. They thought the return to cash payments a wise and wholesome measure, but they complained that the salaries paid to the pub serraots were not reduced in proportion to the increased v. h.. of money. They complained that the expenses of the Court had arrived at an enormous height, and were a disgrace to the country that suffered such extravagance. They com plained that four and a half millions of the public money had been given away by Ministers for the purposes of influencing votes, or, in other words, for the purposes of corruptioo. His constituents also prayed for a Reform of Parliament, and on that subject strongly, because they felt deeply the evils arising from the defective and corrupt state of the Representation of that House. At the same time they were most respectful In th-ir language. They had gone along with the House during tuenty-sevzii years of difficulties and dangers,withoot a murmur. Tr:y only wished for the advantage of having a market for their produce. They asked that not of his Majesty's Ministers, foe from them they could entertain no hope, but they asked it of that house, which was the constitutional guardian of the people's rights. Sit ISA AC COFFIN said, that the Noble Lord had talked of Parliamentary Reform. The best plan of Reform, in his (Sir Isaac Coffin's) opinion, was that which might be founded on the exclusion from that House of persons who had neither' talent nor property. The sooner, therefore, the House was weeded of such Members as himself (Sir Isaac Coffin), who had neither, the better—( Loud laughter).—The Petition was then brought up, read, and ordered to be printed. Lord NUGENT presented another Petition from the same class of persons, signed by 200 names. He could tell the lion. 3lember !Sir Isaac Coffin) that this Petition did not call for Re form. It did not menace the Hon. Member with the loss of his teat. He (Lord Nugent), in his view of Reform, never con templated the exclusion of the Ilan. Member.—The l'etition was *read, and ordered to be printed. Lord NUGENT presented another Petition, from the Into nantsof Stoke Mandeville, in Buckinghamshire, praying for a reduction of taxes.—Laid on the table. Mt. S. RICE gave notice, that on Tuesday next be would rr.ove for certain Papers relating to the Irish Courts of Justice. Lord A LTIIOII PE presented a Petition from the Tanners. Curlers, and Leather-sellers, of Perth, praying for a reduction, of the additional duty on leather. The Noble Lord added, dist Was not any one specific tax—not this tax nor that tax—but :he great mass of taxation, which pressed heavy on the I!e was sure, that whatever plan the Noble Marquis migrg: iGse on that night would hare noieffect, unless it operated to 1:e reduction of taxes generally. The tax on leather, of which the Petitioners complained, was a most oppressive one.—The Petition was then read, and ordered to be printed. Mr. CU ItTEIS presented a Petition from the Agriculturists and Occupiers of Land in the County of Sussex, complaining of a:isms% and praying for protection against the importation of fcrei-n corn.—Ordered to be printed. 117. FELLOWES presented a Petition from the Occupiers of Land in Huntingdonshire, complaining of agricultural dis tress.—Laid on the table. _ _ Mr. DICKENSON presented three similar Petitions front I the Clergy, Freeholders, and other Inhabitants of Chard, Tasso tc.r., arid another place in Somersetshire.—Ordered to be printed. Jr. TY NTE presented three other Petitions f.om parts of the same County, complaining of agricultural distress, and of the overwhelming burden of taxation, and praying for a reduction of sinecures.—Ordered to be printed. Sir T. LETHBRIDGE presented a Petition from the Bath and West of England Agricultural Society. The Petitioners did not speculate on the remedy to be afforded them, but left that to the wisdom of Parliament. The Petitions presented by his Hoy. Colleague (Mr. Dickeuson) went a great length oh that suhject.--Ordered to be printed. Mr. LITTLETON presented a Petition from the Dairy Farmers in the County of Stafford, complaining of the unequal operation of the Duty on Salt, and praying for a reduction colt. —Ordered to be printed. Mr. DUGDALE presented a Petition from the Occupiers of Land in the County of Warwick, complaining of Agricultural Distress.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. GOOCH presented a similar Petition front the Otto iticrs of Land in the County of Suffolk. His constithents had not mixed up any political opinions with their Petition. They "did not think that a Reform in Parliament would bring into their pockets one shilling a quarter more for their wheat. Mr. BENNET said, that if Parliamentary Reform did not bring a shilling into their pockets, it would have kept ten shit nap in them. After a few words from Mr. Coot, Lord Nvossr, Mr. Goocw, and Mr. Banotrr, the Petition was ordered to be printed. Lord A RCM I BA LD HAMILTON postponed, until Mon. day nest, his two Motions relating to the Scotch Burghs and Conussisgon Courts. Mr. HUMS gave notice that, on Monday next, he would move for the Army Returns. Mr. BRNN irr gave notice of a Motion for Thursday, the leltit last. on the subject of the late Queen's Funeral Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that, on the 25th April, he would suluait a Its that the subject of Parliamentary Etiorm required the utmost attention of the House. ;NIL IiONYWOOD vaunted a Petition (rum the Land Mr. R. SMITH presented • similar Petition font certain . Inns of Buckinghamshire—Ordered to be printed. Mr. WETHERELL presented a similar Petition from tip es of Land In Onfordshire—Laid on the table. e Lund J. RUSSELL presented a similar Petition from esrirYl Parishes in Huetingdonshire.—lAM on the table. Mr. COKE presented a similar Petition from NornAb e sierM-* dared to be printed. Mr. HUME moved that there' be laid before the Hanle stn Account of the number of Stamps issued for N gust* the year leci and the same account for 17911, - teed in each Account the London from the Provincial Papers; also distinguishing the number issued to each of the London Papers.-.-Ordered. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said he held in his head the most respectably signed Petition that he bad ever seen. It Was from the inhabitants of Westminster. They were of opinion' that the pressure of taxation on all classes was the great cause et the present distress; but they complained still more of the vie. laden of the laws, and of the Constitution of the meuttry, for many years. The Petitioners stated that it was to the ete• ration of the law, generally known by the name of Mr. Petti'sßill, they attributed the diatrssa In that opinion he (Sir Francis Burdett) could not concur. When the depreciation of the Ur" rency was lowest, only about eight or nine per cent. the pekes of agricultural produce was *ea highest; therefore he would maintain that there could be no connection between the depre ciation of the currency and the low prices of agricultural pro duce. Three years before the introduction of Mr. Peel's Bill there was a great deprerion in the prices of corn, which could not be attributable to that Bill. There never was cause and effect less connected. Mr. Peel's Bill only commenced gradual return to cash payments, and was a wholesome measure. The Petitioners prayed for Parliamentary Reform. Mr. HOB HOUSE said he never saw a Petition more re plete with good sense and wholesome truths than that presented by his Honourable Colleague. The Petitioners said the wishes of the people were always disregarded by his Majesty's Ministers. That was not denied by the present Ministers, who made their character by disregarding the people. The Petitioners com plained of the defective state of the Representation. It was to the corruption of Parliament was to be atuibued all the evils of the country—it was to the corruption of Parliament they were to ascribe the American war—lt was to theeorrup don of Parliament they were to ascribe the disgraces abroad, and the distress at home. Among their grievances the Peti tioners classed what had been stated In that House to be the bul wark of their liberties—namely, a standing army. s The neat point to which the Petitioners adverted was the intolerable load of taxes, which amounted to £1,000,000 in every six days, or 4110,000 every day. The best definition he ever heard of Revenue was, that it was that which each person paid out of Isis private property, in order to the comfortable and secure en joyment of the remainder. But could that definition be applied to the Revenue of this country ? On the contrary, they saw what they gave going into the Minister's pocket, in order to provide a fund, into which their whole property would ulti mately come. The Petitioners attributed much of the distress of the country to the want of sympathy between them and that House. They also complained of the massacre of Manchester, which he hoped would be Inquired into one time or another.— The massacre of Glencoe, he recollected, was without inquiry into it for six years.—(There was loud and continued ci s which prevented any more of the Hon. Member's observations from being heard.)—The Petition was then read. On the question that it be laid on the table, Lord OSSULSTON rose to express his dissent from the Hon. Baronet, who stated that no part of the distress was attri butable to the operatioa of the change of currency. He wax quite of a different opinion. Sir F. BURDETT, in explanation, observed, that he had only stated that the measure was a wholesome measure. The Petition was ordered to lie on the table, and be printfd. Mr. FREMANTLE presented a Petition from the Occu piers of 26,000 Acres of Laud. in Buckinghamshire, praying for an increase of protecting duties on agricultural produce.—Laid on the table. _ _ Mr. PRICE presented a Petition from the farmers and other inhabitants of Ross, in the county of Hereford, praying for a most rigid inquiry into all the expenses of the State, with a view to a large reduction. Also for reduction of the Debt; and lastly for Reform. He agreed with the Petitioners as to the first point, but to the prayer for a reduction of the National Debt, he must for the present object. He would object also to any large, sudden, comprehensive Reform. Every year con firmed his persuasion of the necessity of a gradual change in the present state of the Representation, and be thought an addi tional reason why some, steps should be taken to bring it about was, that there was now great anxiety evident throughout the country in favour of such a measure.—Laid on the table. Lord F. OSBORNE gave notice, that he would, on Monday nut, move in the Committee of Supply, a grant for the number of seamen to be employed for the current year. STATE OF THE NATION. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY . moved the Order of the Day for the House taking into consi deration his Majesty's most gracious Speech. The Order of the Day having been read by the Clerk at the table, The Marquis Of LONDONDERRY rose.--The House would believe him when he assured them that upon no occasion, in the whole course of his public life, did he address them with feelings of so much anxiety as those under whick he then laboured. It had never before been his lot to call the attention of the House to a subject of such interest as the pre sent—an interest, he believed, as great within those walls as a undoubtedly was without them. The in terest of every person in the community was more or less involved in the discussion of that night— (Hear, hear).—He felt depressed at the possibility of not adequately discharging . his duty, and he there fore threw himself on the indulgence of the House. It was his wish to compress as much as possible all the information he had to lay before the House ; and yet he wished to omit no fact of any importance. —lf, therefore, in the course of his address, he should, in order to economize the time of the House, assume propositions, rather than prove them—if he stated figures, the conclusions upon which were not immediately clear, he begged the House, fur the moment, to admit the assumption in one case, and the conclusion in the other—he pledging himself not to hazard any one statement in which he would not , afterwards be completely borne out. The House would be aware that the statement he was about to make was One extremely liable to error; but he as sured them that he would advance nothing but what he believed to be founded in truth, upon solid infor mation ; and that where, fi om inadvertency, he might be led into a mistake, he should consider himself as open to correction—(/Dear, hear).—it was his w ish to economise the time of the House, and therefore he should proceed upon the clear pi inciple of laying down data upon which he should argue, and in support of them he should bring forward those calculations which he believed to be true. It was gratifying to him to be able to state, that he should start from the same point as the Iluaourable and Learned Gentle man opposite (Mr. li,ongliansi, who had preceded him on the same subject the other night; but although they advanced from the same point, hf travelling over the wide geld of discussion. the? *told soon part company by the way. He had Ms otojettidn to assume, with that Learned Gentleman, that such was 'the situation of the country, that there was no degree of economy whidi. Parliament could attain to—no mode of relief consistent with the doctrines of politi cal ecunoehy which could be devised for abating the pressure of tendon, that it was not the bounden duty' of Parliament to apply-4 Hear, hear).—lt was im possible, after the struggle from which this country had passed. and with the important changes in the diversions of property which had been 'directed by the return to that standard .of currency which ought al ways to be the measure of the country, that it should not be oppressed with difficulties which required their most laborious and most vigilant exertions to coun teract. With respect to this view of the matter, therefore. the Honourable and Learned Gentleman and himself started horn the same point. They dif fered in the mode of administering relief, but in their ' impihience fof economy entirely agreed. He would not,' however, detain the House Tong in explaining the distinction between that Honourable and Learned Gentleman's views and his own; nor would he trouble them at all with this branch of the question, could he feel persuaded that the House had read, as he (the Marquis of Londonderry) had done, the picture which the Honourable Member drew of the state of the country in 1816, and compared it with that which he drew the other night, for that contrast would establish all he wished to point out as the distinction between their views. Fortunately for the country, the House had not been hurried into that course, so con trary to the dictates of wisdom, which the florid pic tures of distress placed before their eyes, even so late as last Session, had been intended to operate.— That distress, the House might be assured, was fast moving away before those great national causes, ' which a country like this never failed in evincing in the hour of need. The commercial and nunufac ' turing interests had undergone such a change as ex hibited them in a situation of more healtUul pro sperity than they had ever before been at any period of our history, He did not wish to be understood as asserting that these classes were now working for as high prices as ever they had been ; for then it would be the reverse of what he had stated, ai they all knew how much idleness accrued from extravagance. But instead of industry being goaded on by extrava gant wages, it was sustained and encouraged by adequate returns. The manufacturing classes were in a state of great comfort, and looking towards better times even. It would not be too much to say of them, that they now got twelve-pence where before they only could get eight-pence, and that they could obtain for the latter what formerly would have con them the former. So that they /A - ere enjoying an improvement of 100 per cent—(Hear, hear).—He was able to go along with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman.(lllr. Brougham) in deeply deploring the condition of the agricultural interests, under the tem porary pressure of evils to which they were subjected. He hoped, however, that what he said as matter of consolation, they would be satisfied proceeded from a tone of mind which was the consequence of his en tering with deep sensibility into their sufferings. His interest was so bound up with the landed, that if he was to exercise any watchfulness upon himself, it would be directed against those dispositions into which the feelings of humanity might hurry him. It was almost ilupossible to separate interests in this country, but unquestionably the landed interest was entitled to the greatest share of popular sympathy— (Hear, hear). —He must here correct the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite, as to a statement he had made connected with this branch of the subject, relative to the decrease in the consumption of malt. He was the more desirous of doing this, because he was aware of the double purpose that statement was intended to effect, in pointing at the operation of taxation in oppressing the agricultural more than other interests. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had gazed, as an extraordinary fact, that the country , . consumed nearly one-third less malt now than it did thirty years ago. If the Hon. Gentleman meant to state that the consumption of malt had not kept pace with the growth of population, he (Lord London derry) would not contend against him ; but if he meant to say that a diminution in the consumption of this article proved a diminution of means in the nation, he stood decidedly opposed to him. All that was proved by it, he meant to contend, was, that it proved a change in the habits and tastes of the country; for he would point out an increased consumption in other articles more expensive; so that the argument of the Hon. Gentleman, if good for anything, meant that there was a general decay of prosperity, or that the tax on that atttcle was limited. He had caused estimates to be made of the consumption of malt for I the last thirty years, by which it appeared there had been no diminution of consequence; and the House would observe it was rather a whimsical circum stance that the lea_t quantity of malt was consumed when the taxes were the least. For the three years ending 1791, the number of quarters that paid duty were 27 millions, and for each succeeding term of three years as follows : Qrs. Qrs. Qrs. Qrs. 26,000,000 21,000,000 I 04,000,000 I 23,000, 0 00 I 29,000,000 24,000,000 . 2149%000 24,000•002 For the three year* enaryg 1821, 22,697,000. It was evident, therefore, that there was no diminu tion, although there had not been an increase pro portioned to the increased population. The reason of this, however, was explained by a teference to the increased consumption of tea by those classes who formerly indulged much in the use of beer—(Hear, hear).—He assured the Hon. and Learned Gentleman be was not going to argue the matter of beer versus Itea, or tea versus beer, as to their respective merits; but he would produce a similar calculation, with re- I Bard to the consumption of that article, in support I of what he bad advanced. The calc u lation corn minced at, and covered the same period, and the "bans tepiegenuid ur R tionsdnipilen toi skulls& perioci of three mirk- It would be' hdrne in 'hind thht the duty nLoll telk it. the year 1701, was L'lB 10s. per cent. The eohsemptiott for the grit end following term of three yeah wet:— tbs. . lbs. • :lbs. atooa,ooo 1 Simo,obb aboitomobb I admo,boo 11.41•00001/0 110,000.050 I eb,o*eob es, to,eoupee For the three year!esdieg lash sirot= It was now liable to a duty of nearly 100 per cent: So that it appeared that flits impoverished bountryi snffevint under the mils bf oitir-popolOtion, bad chosen to consume nearly one-sixth more of tea at a duty of 100 per cent. than the .had, done *hen . it only supported g tax of EIS. 'They had voluntarily subjected theniselves to a tax WhiCh they might havd escap!d—(lfear, hear). He did not mean to .stop here in showing the growth of comfort Amongst all classes of the community--and probably it wouldbel gratifying to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman td Leath that a considerable increase of cleanliness had, taken place. Not only was there a great aogrnentoir don under the head of bricks to build with, butot the article of soap, the quantity was doubled (Harr): He would not go on, however, through the long list of exciseable articles which exhibited the same sackn factory alteration, not wishing unnecessarily to take up the time of the House. But he could not refrain from bringing before them one other document which spoke volumes on the same subject. It went to prove indisputably that the distress of the country was not so pregnant and irremediable as had been assiduously represented. And he must here say, that he knew no greater cruelty than when the people were suffer. • ing from causes which could not be controuled, to preach up to them false doctrines, the only effect of which must be to plunge them deeper in despondency —(Hear). He begged to be understood as pointing at the pernicious doctrines of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Brougham)—such was not the language of real iriendship—(Cheera). The docu ment he spoke of was one which compared the Excise colleitions of the whole kingdom for the last year with the preceding. By this would be seen the work.; ing of the Excise laws over the whole surface of Great Britain, by which 16 millions and a half were brought in. The number of Excise collections was 59, and on a revenue of 16 millions and a half there was a gross increase in the majority of the collections of 1,528,00C1. last year over the preceding. There was, it was true, a decrease in some few collections, to the amount of 125,0001. leaving a net increase of about 1,400,0001. or between nine and ten per cent. on the Excise collections of the kingdom—(Hear). But even this failing off could be accounted for locally, and in no way went to affect thosegeneral principles of resurrection and prosperity, which, if the House would but support, as it was their duty to do, would, by their natural progress, restore all things to the state they had left—(Hear). Of this number of col lections, fifty-nine, there were only six collections which exhibited any diminution of excise duty, and only two of any amount. Two or three were only to the amount of two or %COOL and it was but in the collection of Canterbury, Sussex, and Worcester that the remaining material part of the diminution pro ceeded from—and this the failure in the Hop. Duty would at once explain—(Hear). He was happy then to be able to relieve the House on this branch by chewing them that the set-off against the universal prosperity of the kingdom was of so inconsiderable a nature. On the Revenue prcceeding from this source, there was a proof of its exceeding other years by at least one million. That the commerce of the 'country was largely and rapidly increasing, he was able to state from official returns. Thus the returns for the year ending October, ISI9, amounted to the sum of 37,590,0001. for 1820, 38,272,000. and for 1821, 42,717,000/. an increase of 4,200,0001. over the last year, and nearly six millions over the ante cedent. So that under all that pressure which he ad mitted to exist, commerce was largely and steadily growing, and all articles of ordinary consumption exhibited an increase which was universally distribu ted throughout the whole kingdom—(Hear). Before he came to what was the most important duty he should have to perform, viz, to lay before the House a view of what he conceived was the actual financial state of the country, he would make a few prelimi nary observations, which would tend to shorten the road between the Hon. and Learned Gentleman op. posite (Mr. Brougham) and himself. He believed that Honourable Gentleman had endarioured to shew that the reduction of taxes alone, of course not refusing credit to the favourable operations of nature, could reduce the agricultural distresses,. He looked to the repeal of taxes as anxiously as the Hon. Gentleman, but he would state the general view he took of that question, which led him to deny that relief to the agriculturist could effectually be given in the repeal of taxation. Even if they swept away the whole mass of taxes which afrected,tbe .agriculturist, it would not relieve him from the sure of burdens under which he now su (Cheers from the Oppositiea)—He would remain under the pressure of the same evils if no taxation fell on him at all. The result to which those who examined this question would be led was, he believed, that the amount of taxes which could by .possibility bear on the cultivator of the land in his double ca pacity of consumer and grower, was not mote than one-seventh part of the landlord's rent. But to avoid all controversy, he was willing to take it at one fifth of the rent. Now if the taxes bore , the proportion of onejf/lh to the landlord's tent, and that rent held the proportion of onefosirti to the value of the produce of the soil, the taxes which bore ou the cul tivator were one.tweatieth part of the value of . that produce, or five per cent. on the whole. Then,he aNkcd, how could any , relief it was in the power of Parliament to administer, to t.e extent of 5 p ti r cent. have to do with.the distress complained 0f#,..a., (Hear, hear) —But even supposinj that they were in a state to afford this relict of 5 per cent. income of the land, ss Zilch was equal to a I • t ♦~ i • k' ; '. on tlic . • remissiont/ ... .. r '