Star. — London, England, 1822-02-27 00:00:00

ir. s k $ F ilt: •1 compered with the Tear reeeditsg. The is. turing districts were in a most prosperous state though the iron trade was snotewhar depressed, branches were flourishing; Perticulirly the trade, to which a great stimulus had lately beeri Having said this much in reference to facts which he thought it necessary to say a few the fir t instance, he now came to the great question of the agricultural interest ; and he wished it to be distinctly understood, that he was by no means insen sible to the depression it had experienced. But the main point for their Lordships to consider, and one which he wished them to eiamine, was whether there was the slightest foundation for the s tatement.th at taxation was the cause of all the existing di stress ?— He would state it to their Lordships, as a material fact bearing on the question, that a similar pressure was found to bear heavily on the people of all other countries in' Europe. He did not offer this as an ar gument of consolation, but •as one intimately con• nected . with the merits of the case; for though it might be some alleviation of the evil to discover that the same superabundance which inevitably produced distress here, produced it alsp in all other countries, k would be an aggravation of it if it was found that England was the only country that suffered. The Noble Earl here referred to the evidence of Mr. Ja cobs, as given before the Agricultural Committee last year, in order to shew that the agriculturists of the North of Europe, and of Holland and France, expe rienced similar distress to those in England. This testimony, the Noble Earl observed, ought to have great weight with their Lordships, coming as it did from a man of considerable experience, and who had visited foreign countries for the sole purpose of ob taining the most correct inforMation as to the facts. That information he supplied to the 'other House of Parliament, in the course of the last Session, through the medium of their Committee ; but since that period other equally important facts had been adduced.— Here his Lordship adverted to the Address of the Preach Chamber of Deputies to the King, on the 28th of November last, complaining of the increasing dis-' tress of the agriculturists, particularly in the Depart ments of the North, West, and South. He (the Earl of Liverpool) did not instance this latter case to spew what remedy the French Chamber of Deputies might think most effectual, but in order to prove that dis tress was not confined to England alone, but that it existed with equal pressure in other countries. The answer of the King of France chewed the real source of the evil. " Nothing," said his Majesty, " can cor rect an abundant harvest ; all other countries are suffering from the same cause." But he (the Earl of Liverpool) would further state, that the case was the same ail over Germany. In Hanover wheat was sold at 3s. 6d. a bushel ; rye and barley were equally low priced, as was also butchers' meat of every descrip tion. The general complaint on the Continent was, that prices were now little more than half what could be considered fair prices. He was well aware it might be argued that this depression probably arose from taxation in some of those countries. But what would be said with respect to one particular country, Swit zerland, which had no public debt, and scarcely any standing arm) ? Yet that country laboured under more severe and oppressive distress than any other in Europe. He had recently seen a letter from Switzer land, which spoke on the subject in these terms:— " We are suffering from low prices and an abundant harvest ; ae have no money, and the farmers find it imposAbte to pay their debts." Thus was the fact evablislied that superabundance led to pressure, not only in England, but in every country, both in the north and in the south. The evil wis general—but whether arising in every country from the same cause it was not for him on the pre,,ent occasion to inquire. In taking a view of the existing distress, he found that an immediate remedy was altogether beyond oar reach. He now proposed to go at once to that part of the subject which had either been never al luded to or only in a very slight degree. Before a recent period, the question of taxation was never thought of as being in any way connected with agri cultural distress, and still less was it assigned as a cause of that distress, till certain persons were found who industriously propagated such a doctrine. It was universally admitted by all parties, that the agricultural interest was in a most prosperous state during several of the latter years of the war ; and was it not known that since the close of the war the taxes had been diminished one-fourth ? In the year 1815 taxes to the amount of 18,700,0001. were at once taken off. It was true that, afterwards, a tax of little store than 3,000,0001. was imposed; but every succeeding year gradual reductions had been effected ; and the amount of the whole, since the termination of the war, could not be taken at less than 17,000,0001. He admitted that proportion ate reductions had not been made in the indirect taxes ; but the pressure of these was not *to be com pared with the direct taxes, 17,000,0001. of which were at once abolished, to the great advantage of the consumer, causing a reduction of 25 per cent. on the whole taxation of the country. But then it was argued that money had fallen in value infinitely be low any advantage that was derived from the reduc tions that had been effected. Now this brought him at once to the question of the currency, and he con tended that when the circulation was most depreci ated, the reductions were quite equal to compensate for the amount of loss. At the time the Bank Com mittee were sitting the depreciation could not be taken at more than 5 per cent. .During two or three years of the war, when it was at the highest, it did not rise above 25 per cent. but even then, the dimi nution of taxes being also 25 per cent. no argument about the effects of a depreciated currency could be urged upon any fair or rational principle. The Noble Earl now proceeded to enter into statements, in order to shew that the wealth of the country had increased in a much greater proportion than its taxes. Taxation was only an evil so far as it affected the public pro sperity; and he would ask, whether our prosperity 4 increased or not ? He desired their Lordships a view of the country, such as it was previou's war with France, and compare it with the ek es that existed at this time. This compari _ most clearly appear from the documents were then upon the table, and which would great portion of national' wealth that had tied since the period preceding the late war, the whole appearance of the country had iged in a tnomeat greatly to its advantage. take the averages of the three years pre. ' •• . ' -*.'' *', It-..'4 j, • s.: • '"- , , • . . • .' ,'- ,•• 'a.* \ 044 . Z • , , ' .... • •;•!' ' - ' 0 , ' r . :‘. 4' •4 ‘ ....; :•• - V 4, . . • ~ • ,V 4:. .4 • • . •• ::. ili•• • ••• • l • • A .‘ •• • ...• _ :. ~7 tireVed t ess d Steady so ; and this prosperitt 'took place, indepen dent of various 'improvements to other branches con nected with them. With regard to. the state of agri culture, it muse be recollected that . great numbers of Inclosure Bills bad been pas sed d since 1790, and that immense tracks of land been inclosed and put into a state of cultivation, which before were en tirely waste, or were* best used as sheep-walks.— This constituted a new source of public and indivi dual wealth. But he wished their Lordships to con sider the state of the old lands, which had been greatly improved, and that rents had been considerably ad vanced, notwithstanding the great reductions which they lately.experienced--qeductions which he wished had taken place long before. Another subject worthy of consideration, was the increase of the population, on which he thought there could be no difference of opinion ; and the effect of this increase would be evi dent from a view of the number of consumers of ex ciseable articles. He should not now advert to an increased consumption of corn, because it would be difficult to draw any conclusion from that circum stance, and still more difficult to draw a correct one. Much, indeed, was owing to the altered habits of people, no matter whether for the better or the worse. Bat with respect to the increased consumption of all articles of taxation, he had obtained as accurate ac- Counts as it was possible to procure. On the article of tea, the tax had increased since the year 1789 from 18 to 100 per cent. and, since that time, the consumption of the same article had increased from sixteen millions to twinty-two millions of pounds— an increase which was .proportionate to the increase of population, notwithstanding the increased revenue arising from additional taxes on that article. With regard to the article of candles, there must be a still less difference of opinion. In the years 1787, 1788, land 1789, the average annual . consumption of can dles was four millions of pounds; and in the years 1819, 1820, and 1821, there v, as an average increase of more than one-third, being mpre in proportion than the increase of the population. The next article of consumption to which he would advert was soap.— For the years 1787, 1738, and 1789, the average con sumption of soap was 292,000 cwt. The duty had since increased ; and yet for the yearilBl9, 1820, and 1821, the average annual consumption was 643,963 cwt. an increase of one-third more thin could be expected from the increase of the population. On the article of leather the taxation had increased, but its con sumption had nearly kept pace with the increase of population—the increased average in the latter pe riod being the difference between 32 millions and 42 millions cwt. It would be difficult to make any esti mate respecting the consumption of salt; but he could confidently state, that it had experienced an increase of ten per cent per annum. The consumption of bricks had increased from 600,0001. to considerably more than a million—being an increase of upwards of one-third upon the averages, allowing for the in crease of population. After making these statements, he sr ould now ask, what was the actual state of the taxation compared with the increased wealth of the country ? He asked this question, not with any re ference to the state of the currency, but the state of the nation, such as it was before the French war, and such as it was at present. He would, therefore, desire any man to put this question to himself in his closet ; after such a detail as he had now made, what relief could be expected from a practical lessening of the taxation? He would assume, that no such thing as a violation of public faith could be contemplated by any man, because such a measure would lead to the ruin of one great branch of consumers, and could not afford any practical relief to the cultivators of land. What the farmers wanted was a market for their produce, and it was not in the power of Parlia ment to find one for them. He was aware, that on this occasion it would be observed that Government had created a market for the farmers, and afterwards took it from them. It was true, that during the war an expenditure had been created, which ex penditure, if continued, would be fatal to the in terests of the country ; and that expenditure bad caused an immense market for the produce of the farmers. But a considerable part of it consisted of the very large demand of the Government for the farmers' prpduce—a demand which had increased to an enormous extent in consequence of the war.— During the last years of the war the demand of Go. vernment for flour alone was two millions annually; and now, on an annual average, it was only 600,000. This reduction was caused by al-eduction of the pub lic expenditure; and therefore the evil complained . of would be aggravated rather than lessened by an arti ficial market. This, then, was our situation at pre sent. Here were two great classes of the commu nity—those who held the land and those who have a mortgage upon it—and to injure the latter would be to injure a very great body of coasumers. All agreed that faith should be kept with the public creditors, and that the public establishments should be reduced as much as possible, consistently with the safety of the State, and with the nature of a Monarchical Constitution. It was an after-question how far this reduction might be carried ; and that might best be answered by an examination into circumstances.— But the chief question was, whether we should remit in taxation the excess of revenue over the expendi ture, or apply it in part to the reduction of the debt. On this question he would state his opinion as to the profit and loss of the two courses; and what would be the advantage to any particular interest, arising from this partial reduction of taxation. The sum of five millions was the excess in question ; and, be asked, what proportion did that bear to the annual income of the country? The revenue was from fifty to eighty millions, and a reduction of five millions would bear a proportion of about one-tenth of the revenue. He was sure that such a reduction would not relieve the agricultural interest, and he doubted whether it would be seriously felt by the Public at large. What profit, then, could arise from the re mission of five millions of taxes? He would next consider the loss of such a measure. It would con sist in the giving up of the Sinking Fund, which, when kept within reasonable bounds, must ever be considered as the main prop of our national credit. why regarded rusts of the country, coiddliesitate a MOM as to their choice?. He would not advert.ttlipe s =t i Itself of the Sinking fund. This waa ant a l t hiarsh, he. rad. proposed the measure of Mr., Pitt, 'it for the consideration of Pint- When Mr. l Pitt first introduced it; it was not objected to by those who were his political opponents. Mr. Fox, ru per. ticular, not only approved of the measure, but be also offered several very useful Suggestion', which were adopted, and assisted in the formation of the Bill.; and, even after the death of these two great men, the Sinking Fund was warmly approved of by Mr. Sheridan. There certainly was a work of considerable merit written by a Dr. Hamilton, in which doubts were thrown out respecting the policy of that measure. This work was published abdut the year 1803 or 1804. But it appeared to him that Dr. Hamilton's chief objection was directed to the Fund in time of war; because he contended that what was borrowed from that Fund during the war, was lost to the country. Yet, notwithstanding what Dr. Hamilton and others had urged against the Fund, he (Lord. Liverpool) was persuaded that the ad. vantage of a Sinking Fund in time of war more than counterbalanced any disadvantage resulting from it. The Fund produced a moral effect, independent of the consideration of profit and loss. During the last war the country was fighting for its very existence; and he asked, what would our situation have been, in such a war, without a Sinking Fund, which kept up the public credit? And suppose another war were to break out, must we not be in a much worse situation if such a Fund did not exist? It must not be forgotten that every other country in the world had a Sinking Fund; he meant every country that bad a National Debt. It existed in France and Ame rica. The former had a Sinking Fund much greater in proportion to its Debt than ours; and the Sinking Fund the latter country promised the extinction cif her Debt in twenty years. Should we then proclaim to the world, that with a Debt far greater than that of any other country, we should take no measures to lessen it? He trusted, therefore, for the sake of our public interest, and for the sake of posterity, we should maintain our Sinking Fund. He should nest come to the question, whether anything could now: be done for the relief of the Agricultural Interests . ? i i It was clearly his opinion that the distress of the far mers could not be attributed to excessive taxation ; and he was sure that no reduction of taxes which it was in the power of Parliament to make could give them relief.. The cause of their distress was the &eat excitement that took place during the war, and consequently an over-production of the produce of the soil, together with the high prices, n frith forced large tracks of poor land into a state of cultivation. An over-Production must always have the same ef fect upon agriculture as upon other branches of in dustry. The over-production was also increased by large imports from Ireland, which, during the last three years, were much greater than all the imports from all other parts of the world during the same pe. iod. These were facts which could not be got rid of by any legislative enactment; but he wished to ask if other interests had not been benefited by this over-production? It was certainly the duty of Par liament to hold an even balance between all the in terests of the community ; and so far as regarded the Agricultural Interests, the inclination of his mind would be to turn the scale in its favour, if it were no more than the weight of a feather, provided such a preference were likely to afford relief. But it must not be forgotten that many other classes derived great advantage at this time from the very distresses of the farmers, on account of the cheapness it pro ducel 'lle subject could not be regulated by law, and the evil must be left to cure itself. It was a mis take to say that the distress benefited nobody; for he well knew at this very time it afforded a benefit to a great mass of the community. It benefited the Manufacturing Interest, and it benefited the country in regard to Poor-rates. He should now shew what was the plan which it was the object of the Govern ment to adopt for general relief. He should first al. lude to the intended reduction of expenditure. This would be much greater than what he was about to propose, were it not for the deficiency of Revenue in Ireland. This clear surplus of nearly a million and a half shewed that Government were not indisposed • accommodate the expenditure of the country, as far as possible, to the circumstances of the times. The greatest minimum had been taken in every depart ment ; and so strong was their desire to retrench, that they were willing to submit even to inconve nience, in order to be enabled to afford some relaxa tion of the public burdens. In the progress of the inquiry as to the means by which relief could be given, the expediency of reducing all Public Este. blishments was what struck Ministers as primarily important. The necessity of preserving inviolate the means of one day discharging the National Debt next forced itself upon them, and, with that view, of sup porting the Sinking Fund, which was voted, in 1819, to the amount of at least five millions. How far Go vernment had been successful in that respect, their Lordships would see by the papers upon the table. Ministers then, wishing to afford some relief to the country in the reduction of taxation, turned their at tention to how far that principle could be carried, without trenching upon those grounds which it was material to keep untouched. It occurred to them that a saving might be made by lowering the into. rest of the National Debt, and that a reduction of taxes to that amount might be made. Without enter ing into any explanation as to the way in which this plan was carried into effect, he would content him, self with saying that the views of Ministers in this respect had been completely fulfilled, and that they were now in a situation to diminish the taxes, xo the same extent as they had gained by lowering the in. terest on the Debt. Having thus stated the steps aed tually taken, and the present results which follow e d from them, he would call the attention of the Home to the more extensively beneficial effects which thus measures might. be .expected to produce in futur.' There were also other means which should no! * overlooked, and the beneficial operation of which -40-Trogr --: .7 ,- Propeiw - 71—grp7-7 , --,- , ... • .• ' • . , . tale years—. dead Charge of and, diax ithorrer would take the expenditure of the country now, and compare it with what it bad. been before ibe war, would ilnd that the dire:ear, was entirelY swallowed np in Half pay and Allbwances to Of. s. - Perhaps the House would scarcely believe that the amount of the Half pay at this time was very near five millions annually—Wear, heao_ Thi s was a charge nearly as large as either the Army c s i .Navy taken separately. But it was upon this head of expenditure that the greatest and most certain re: ductions might be expected. A reduction there cer tainly would be in it, for as it was in the nature of ais annuity, though slow in progress, the effect um, sure, Upon another topic he would make an observatiorr. When, in 1819, Parliament declared that they would maintain a Sinking Fund of five millions at least, he (Lord Liverpool) then gave an opinion that this sum should be held inviolate for the discharge of tl'e Debt. In doing so, however, he was careful d'.l - what was inviolable and *hat was not so, and he had now no hesitatinn in saying, tha though the Sinking Fund of 5,000.0001. should he preserved inviolate for the discharge of the Debt, yet that it was open to Parliament, in the event of an in crease in Fund beyond the 5,000,000/. either to apply that surplus to the purposes of the 5,000,000/, or to apply it in the reduction of taxation, as the cir cumstances of the cotrntry might seem to demand it. This brought him to another topic, which was not of less interest, namely, the raising 4,000,000/. by loan from the Bank towards the relief of the Agricul turists. Befdre entering in detail into the means by which this measure was carried into effect, it was necessary to call the attention of the H, 'use hack to the circumstances in which the country was placed in 1813. This retrospect would sheW that the pie. sent measure was but the reducing to practice plans which were then conceived. V. hen in 1819 the ilues tion of the Sinking Fund was discussed, the c,, tion which existed between Gnve.nment an! the Bank became in some tneasure a principal silb; , ,ct for consideration. The Bank claimed a debt .'ate to them from Government, by which they complained that they were much embarrassed, and as the ex- I istence of a debt was admitted, it was proposvd in Parliament' to advance to the Bank, in dischare of that debt, a sum not exceeding five or 6,000 000/. Subsequently, however, when the Bullion Committee were sitting, the Bank made their demand iii form, and it then appeared that they had increased their 'claims to 10,000,0001. A Noble Nlaiquis opposite (Lansdown) could testify that when this demand was made, he (Lord Liverpool) objected to the ex tent of it, feeling sensible that Goveinment' could not have been so largely indebted to the Directors. However, as an important measure con:erning the currency was then in contemplation, it was thought better to comply with the demands of the Bank, that no impediment might be thrown in the way of re. turning to Cash Payments. It was not indee,: to debt of the Bank, that he attached so much import mice, but to the evidence whi:h was elicited be ore the Bullion Committee whilst the question was under consideration. One great object with the Committee was to devise means of increasing the circalati a of the Bank, and he wished to refer their the minutes of evidence given before the Committee upon that head. In the examination of the Governor of the Bank, it would be found that he was asked, •• If the issues of the Bank were not enough for the circulation of the country ?—and if they were not, whether it would not be better to increase the circu lation more immediately through the Bank, than by any increase of Exchequer Bills?" He was also asked how the Bank of England could be induced to in crease their issues? In reply to both of which. he answered, that the only way was by making them lower the interest upon their discounts. It was to this object that Government had long directed their attention. It was, however, a little extraordinary to Ministers and the Public, that up to this time the Bank had not lowered their interest ; and though money was now below four per cent. in the market, the Bank were still charging at the rate of five ; and this the Bank had been charging tor a long space of time; for in some two or three months after thel3ul - Committee made its Report, the Exchanges be came favourable to this country, so that the treasure amassed by the Bank in imported gold should have been very large. But it was questionable whether the Bank served itself by holding out for this high interest, for if a calculation was made, it would be found that such high interest was injurious to them and to the Public. Government had been since that time employed in inducing the Bank to lower the rate of interest on discounts. The object was to in crease the circulation of the country, and, by conse quence, afford relief to the agriculturists, as the circu lation of money would be a benefit, whether it was laid out in securities to individuals, or in public works. To the proposition of an increased circulation there could be no objection, as the principle had been long recog nised and acted upon in issuing Exchequer Bills.— It was with tins view that the loan of four millions bad been borrowed at 4 per cent. from the Bank-- this sum would be applied in the manner stated in another place. But he (Lord Liverpool) did not mean to contend that this sum would work miracles ; he did, hoWever, expect thy it would afford consider able relief, and that whether it was laid out in public works, or advanced to parishes, it would serve as a palliation of the present distresses of the country. It was clear that this sum was not wanted for the public service, or for any other purpose from which Government could derive advantage, but solely in or• der to increase the circulation. It was to be under stood, however, that the Bank made the advance upon the condition that if the exchanges became on- favourable, they should have the power of calling for die repayment of each million at three months notice. He hoped this advance of four millions would go far in removing the difficulties. If the Bank could - be induced to lower the interest on their discounts, this ap plication toit would be unnecessary. With theseobser vadat, he should leave that part of the case ,and prod 'seed to another, which was also ottonside!rable im• portance. The question to which he - would now di- , . 'th had increa to take a v ! . 1 to the war cumstance: son would which wer shew the g accumulati t and that ti i - . I , been chant He would . - - .. . . ♦ , .. . • . . , . . . --, - - ‘. , . • • • , ' asew t ell it -- 5 - iii -- ' pa c e—te farther improve tin tinideventaktue, • i , th at 06 110 0, anajilt z ;•4 l HdOl : •g• 4 ) 0 4 0 . 'Wt. .ir 4 tilhaPdila irs d ifiatrlitliblittbidle." farther e l i t " Pl . i lia iblielfrere ess le sta : te 7 nt r ah rid et. ay ' I. w rn ° ere l fi le. ll : 9 illicon aild• 7 1 ; mintio'llt,74l"76s.cf.rhothea:lerayerstlit Pr"r"etvd olsonse of F thit illir:Ptin charge l i w icir hic Y l ea l gr ev , "— ' the cam . 019,0 w and 1041 ; were 40 were, in facti gremest burden ; aw l ►been given. been the imports daring the three for es years were 17 a b an d on that Fund, d i should be Isp.eilth out of tbe war, and amongst the d ea d ) facts unse m o ons , an d i n th e three latter yean36 millions; so ode bead what we en — 04 byCohere. ee_pen . _ ses ofthe,emi WT. •Vf all th em , the c h arge of tm , word; in ehatiheeziiirteweremorethantrehledtandtheimports for*, he was correst 411 has statement of profit and Half pay to mews was the _-__ :-...._, . ...A *hie rireseletiti look , obsee. indwell- ~he *dad if 'those who regarded the true . and in to such -an extent hiad.thie ine rene d . thail