Star. — London, England, 1817-05-17 00:00:00

por proposed, a real security was afforded, by a re. palar c-ntiination of this practice for ever, and which the lit:ra was o illing to ratify by treaty, which was v... mna %urn' Halal g uarantee. With respect to the Veto. on ss h.eti s<t . mueh bad been' said, in viewing; that print, the different mode of arranging and siet;ditig upon ecclesiastical promotions in this count, y, fyt:yn what*: weald, is suclui case, in Ire landiought to be crinsidered..liere . ihek‘taltsaCtions would be immediately under the eyis of the Govern'. rnent—there it would be under the government by representation, and eventually it would be found, that these ap7ointritei.v. in tht• Catholic Prelacy, wire given t , i some second tit third clerk in the Castle yard of Dublin. lle paLtgyrized the eharacter.ind conduct of the Cati.oltc Clargy in Ireland, metito ti-nis andlaudabie, and I,e thought it would be well tot the pe ice c.l t!,at cct:t.try, if these persons had s..cli an inflaence oti:t their Hocks, as they were sup, " • posed to have. He then 'proceeded to object ter-a third consideration, which was herd out latterly as an additional security, namely, lie ey.prdn lit of paying the Catholic Clergy. Tnat meritoricus set i I men wanted no civil boursty whet:ever—they desired no other stipends but those which were alre:dy allott-d to them, fur . the discharge of their religinus dur;e,. The conduct of the Legislature towards the Catho lics s:ioisicl, in sound policy, justice, and wisdom, he, he thought, a direct and absolute concession to the prayer of their petitions, to admit them treely to all caces and situations under the Government whatever, save and except only those connected with patio stage in e:rJesiastical concerns, and he thought that the Protect int Church should be left to the exclosive management uf Protestants only ; and on the o.fie4 liattel he %%mild leave to the Catholics all the admi r:istration of their own Church. In e'ecidkg the question. Pariiament should look to the actual cir cumstances tit Ireland ; they should consider that lull eight-tenths of the population of Ireland were now praying for the enjoyment of their rights— and that alone ought to be sufficient to induce an immediate consideration of the subject—(lbar.)— The Noble Earl then proceeded to the discussion of various objections, which he described as held out against ati acquiescence in i'ne Catholic claims ; as a portion uf the outrages ur excesses which had taken place in Ireland, and which his Lordship considered as attribufable to the criminal conduct of Orangemen —the' re•establishment of the Jesuits under the. Papal Government—and theanathemaswhich were launched against a general use of the Scripture ; these, he ar gued, were totally unfounded as objections to the Catholic Claims. While desc'ialog on the last meistiened point, tie referred to a work ',iodated by a Right Reverend Prelate, fur whom, however, he had the highest possible respects—the doctrine held out its which' seemed to him to militate against a ge niral USG of the Bible, nearly-as much as that which appeared to be held out in another quarter. After some blither observations; in the view of establishing the (one unions he songlit for, the Noble Earl moved h i the Petitions presented to the Houie on the part orlis Majest y 's Roman Catholic subjects in Ike tad. be referred to the consideration of a Committee." Theilibliop of LLANDAFF had rose thus early in the evening, thZbting his ability to du justice to subject, aid knowing that the remarks he shorn' Is . .ye to make were of a general description. He should not liallow the /shible Earl through the whole train of his argument., but should briefly state the catitei which induced him to entertain sentiments so different froth the opinions which hid just been so riskeetably maintained. If the question was one uf relpgiotit liberty, and wholly apatt from political con arderations, he should rejoice to co-operate with the Noble Lord, towards an end so debatable as that of af t lowinga conscientious freedom of opinion. But der Catholics of lielmid should no longer talk of pains alid penalties, when they were as free in the exercise of their religion as the members of the Established Llitirch. All that they now called for was an eaten- Opts of political power. This they might endeavour touttain without inquiring into the charge of religi- La • intolerance. It WAS however,_ the object of the Mese to separate the political from the religious pill', WASnot the question whether the Council olTient were right or not in their decisions, or whether the docuitie of transubstantiation were' true oi false ? Whatever opinions were entertained upon Oese tubjects,.. there could be liule to condemn, with. the exception of their refusing to permit the free use or the Bible. These were, however, erroneous doc- • trines, and were in some respects calculated to pre vent the membeis of socie(y . from becoming good members of the State. ' Such a conclusion he was justified from pan experience in making.. Hi should now stale the most powerful .argurneot _which had heti advar.ced in favour of the Catholic cjairiis, and it Oil argument admitted of a satislactury.answer, there could h, n' gonads for going into a Commit tie on this btisisess. It was, in fact, the most eligi ble point halite petitioners to have urged. They say that citaj . employment should be regulated by civi worth t; helorethat point could be conceded to than, it seal necessary-to be made acquainted with the standard by which that worth was to be estimated. The matter to ba settled was, whether.the religion Of one man was better fur a State tlian th 4 practised by another man ? but all that either could claim was, that tee should not be punished for his religious upi. 'lions. The Catholics were taught fio ups'. to their numerical force, rather, than to confide in the force of their, arguments. It was . still civil worth which. deterinipeit the choice-of the State. the allegiance oT the Churchman was founded..eptin the King's ac knov;leet6ed supremacy both in Church and 'State. The catholic only admitted Of eked supreinacy ; but even ttlat was of a nature wholly different from. the civil allegiance of the Protestant Dissenters.. The latter were ,whully governed by the So . vestign, but in the former . case, where the power of a foreigner was admitted, the-Civil allegiance could 'not fail of being. weakened bf th . e ecclesiastical. An anomaly in the Government most inevitably be produced by the mingling, of foreign allegiance with domestic, t ere one :4 iv4igh was . distinct from the other:. liape4ly.in this mpiritra the civil aliegisnce waeblen.: Ogil t s,4l gir;.lll4l9use::but if diet we re . not so con nected, it . woule.he ssaop,.to fomee whattnaster. the Catholic bautdet 'apply„to; a bolution ofbis doubts. Oat then wou/st be .0 dieuct inttiterence with the idegienie to else King. There was the soul on one aide and the body on the other. The fears for the tutsra:r would predominate, and the isthsalce of a! foreign Prince might be devoted to purposes subverel sivc of -the'Constitution. Those who submit to such infinence;•then should not he trusted with the care of the Constitution ittelt. This was tailed an einighten ed age, and the example of Wean.ce . was held out as a proof that Catholics and., Protestants m'glit be ad mitted to the Councils of the State. From this doc trine he differed: The power here would devolve from the Protest upon theCetholic, whereas France was a Catholic and not a Protestant State, and the Protestant there was in direct allegiance to the King, to whose C"nncils he was called. B.ut the English and Irish Catholics admitted an Allegiance to a foreign Sovereign win held the sceptre of religion, and while views were directly nppnsed to those of the domestic Prince. Let the Catholics be judged by their own standard, and when their allegiance - was found to be alike, let them be alike admitted to the privileges of the Constitution.—(l/car, hear!) — He would then grant. that the State might be as well administered by one as by the etl u It was impossible to estimate the civil wrath sinless the elle, giance was single aid entire, instead of its being as lit was at • present derided and distracted. Die Ca. ttolics now claimed to be alike admissible to all offices of trust and power, but those claims ought not to be allowed. He did oat deny that the.Catho lies were useful members of the State, beet their uti lity would be stil greater were it not for the fetters which bound them to a foteign Prince. He would acknowledge their tespcctability, and regretted that they were dissatisfied when they ought to be obedient. It was not worth while to enter into topics of minor consequences. But he would proceed to domestic neeenation, which was a term well calculated to do assay the objections excited by foreign iefluence, and di:wine could not be effective. It was stated, that it xas the constant practice to recommend the coed jet or of the dec.asesi Bishop, but that individual could clot la conic the coadjutor without the previous sanction of the Pope. (The Right Reverend Prelate was here inter tested by loud cries of (,r d er, These were occasioned by the Earl of Dononglimore having accidentally risen from hie seat, and its being supposed that the Noble Earl was about to interrupt the speech.) The Earl of DONOITGHMORE expressed the highest respect for the Right Reverend Prelete who . had addressed the House, and declared that it was not with any view to give him the slightest interrup tion that lie rose, at that particularennenent. • The Bitherpot-LANDAFF iesumed.. He should not trouble their Lordships with any. further observa tions. He had stated his opinions, candidly on this subject, and regretted the necessity he felt of voting against emotion coming from a (loaner so rispecteble. The Bishop of NORWICH observed, that the Ca tholics of both England and Ireland had given the most positive proofs of cavil allegiance, and he thought it hard that a conscientious adherence to the religious opinions which they had inherited from their forefathers. should deptire them of the enjoyment of civil rights. It was an innocent religion, and he hoped that in the nineteenth century the religions opinions of men of the most polished nation in Eu• rope—of Noblemen of distinguished character, would not be a bar to their being admitted to those privi leges to which they were entitled. He was far from being indifferent upon the subject.; in his opinion it was innocent, and he had the sanction of the Legis ture in making use of the term. The Catholics were good and loyal subjects; they had taken the oath, and had taken the declaietion. On what then did his Learned Friend ground his opinion, that they were less good . subjects for the tenets they professed ? It was provably the last time lie should have the honour of addressing the House on, at oe any other subject—(Hear, hear,)--and he was gratified in being able to lift his voice to inquire whether that unfortu nate country (Ireland) was to be the bulwark of the Empire, or whether see was to remain a perpetual annoyance? —(Naar.) He would wish that the Cit e chokes would come forward with some expedient not essentially differing from their own religion, and not essentially dangerous to the Protestant Establish mem. There was no occasion to depart from the present mode of electing the bishops, many of whom were good in private life, and used their utmost endeavours to impress upon the minds of the lower orders the duties of civil obedience.— The Right Reverend Prelate then read a quotation respecting Pariah Priests, which eulogized them at some length. He then mentioned the names of Locke and Molyneux, whom he stated as being fa.. veureble to the principle of universal toleration. These, he said, were two of the greatest reesoners that the country had produced, and it was froth a careful study of their works that he had been induced to change his early sentiments, and to lament the ex clusion of lour millions of people from their civil privileges. It had lately been well said by a Gentle. man in another place; who on many occasions had's° ably advocatedehe Catholic Cause, " 'Mew me real danger, and you shall have every security." • He would wittier say with Dr. Johnson, " ha that would raise an outcry at the danger of Popery, would 'cry out 'file at a deluge." The Catholics both of Eug land and Ireland; disabled as they were, had borne their privations with 'a forbearance and moderation which had seldom been equalled—(Nier. hear.) In return; they had been exposed toilisulteand persecu. lion(' inconsistent withChiistlin charity—(firer.) 'The. Bishop of OSSOKY said, he had the highest veneration for the authority of Mr. Locke ; but it his memory servedhim correctly. it was the opinion of that great man, that further concession could nbt be - Made to the 'Catholics without danger. He referred the Roase to ihe pastoral letteis of the 'killer Bishops in Ireland. and particularly that of the titular Arch bishop of Dublin, for that soundness of doctrine which was claimed for them.' In theft. !mete their 1 Lordships would, on the . contrary, find strong grounds for , alarm. .Here the Right Rev. Prelate reed some eructs from works published by the 'Ca tholics of 'lreland, in order to thew how opposite their principles and opinions were, from aVery thing intended to be brought forward for their relief.— ' These persons never would, and never could give up foreign' jurisdiction ; and when they did, they• Must cease to be Catholics e and it would baimpostibreto treat with such peenie.with any PgiiPeett of success. Signor Quatentotti;had stated, that they might safely give 'up .a eertisiu thattohi inelhe nomination of Biihops ; * but this Was tejected -by them, because it .would not suit the designs which they hid of pulling down the Protestant Church, and Of exalting their nwn in its steafl., (Hear.) Lt war 044, &a n t the petitioneri Wore. *tidy to take aft isitifftbsinii foreicn , influence should be exerciard,Over them ; could not take such an oatb. On ,this subject he should reaten extract froM-,a pamOhlet, poblished i by a highly revered character, who stated, -that all oaths taken by Catholics prejudicial to their Church, were held to bt null - and void. He next alluded to the re-establishment' of the Order of Jesuits by the Pope ; he was happy to say there were cud) , two places in Ireland where any attempt was made to re- establish them. The Roman Catholic' religion was ever active, and every where the same ; in proof of which he adverted to the conduct lately pursued by Catholic Bishops in the Netherlands, in oppositiva to their Sovereign, who was a Protestant. He conclu ded by opposing the motion. The Bishop of NORWICH, in explanation, said the Catholics abjured the doctrine that Princes exco municated by the Pope might be deposed, or put to death by their subjects. The Earl of HAR ROWDY considered the chain which bound men to the Government unchr v. hick they lived to consist of an infinite variety of links.— The relzion of the State was one of these, and he could not think the chain that bound hie) who was not of the established religion quite so strong, aa that which he bore who belonged to the national clirch. But the question on which a polit;ciall had to deside was, whether the chain in which this link was want ing, appeared to he sufficiently strong for all practical purposes? He asserted the affirmative of this to be proved, with respect to the Catholics, by experience and history. It was admitted on all hands that it was very desirable to conciliate the Catholics, if this could be done. If then this were so desirable, surely the attempt ought to be made by going into the Committee. It had been argued by a Reverend Prelate, that if the Catholics were admitted into Parliament, and into the Army and Navy, the two Houses of Parliament, the Army and the Navy, would immediately become Catholic. Was it rational to expect this ? In England it was impossible, but even in Ireland there was no reason to fear the Pro testant interest would be in danger. He could not admit the propriety of those distinctions made in the Army, which would allow a Catholic to command ohe regiment, but which denied him the command of two. When a man had 'devoted the best part of his life to a particular profession, had shed his blood, and was covered with wounds in our service, he was of opinion that sufficient pledges were obtained for his fidelity, and no danger from . such persons could rationally be apprehended, save that which might grow out of the hard return made under the present iystem for meritorious services. The system he held to be j unjust,'and was satisfied , from the progress the question lead already made and was still making, that it could not long continue. lithe Bi itish Parliament would lay down the conditions on which► they would admit the Roman Catholics to a participation is the privileges enjoyed by other subjects, they (the Ca. tholic9 would do one of two things—they, would accept the offer thus made * , or they Would say they could not avail thentselves•olit ; ansL iu either case, Parliiinent would have done its duty.' All that could be done to relieve the Catholics' ought to be done.— Things could not remain as they were,' and those who entertained this (pinion (forst, he should think, concur with him in the propriety of gOing into a Committee, which would bind them down to no spe-, cific measure, in order to ascertain what could be , done to conciliate the Petitioners.:- The Earl of LIVERPOOL began by paying a compliment to his Noble Friend, for the ingenuity with which he argued this question; the same time be wholly differed from him in opinion. The motion wachrought forward for the purpose of plac ing Roman Catholics, in every respect, on the same footing with Protestants; and therefore, whoever voted for going into the Committee, must, by that vote, pledge himself to make such concessions:-- Therefore, tie could not agree with his Noble Friend;" when he said that such a vote would not pledge any of their Lordships to a specific measure. With respect to the Ecclesiastical part of this question, lie thought if any concession were to be made, it must be done without any intefference with the. Catholic Church. He' knew that in many countries Protestant Governments exercised authority over Catholics, but it was only by temporalities they ever exercised any power over the Church. Now, .as to the Veto and domestic nomination, he thought nothing of them, his objection Was not against the mail named as a Bishop, nor did he conceive it necessary to interfere in the nomination. What he objected to was the in thence the man was under when he was named.— The mode of nomination then was of no consequence —the best Mail might benaminated; and still he was under foreign iufluence, equally dangerous with that of Any other man. If concessions then were to be made, lie would never fetter them by any such con ditions. It might be true, that equal privileges should be grained .to all his Majesty's subjects ; but the-question was, did they come with , equal condi tions ? He maintained that the Constitution of this country was inseparably connected with the Pro testant Church. These was an intimate • connexion between Church and State; it was a connexion' which pervaded every pan ( of .our system. The King on the Throne-,• and every person at the head of the State, were bound to communicate with the Church. The Parliament was .buund. to do so on certain occasions. Even the Judges, When on Circuit, could not open their Courts without going ihrouy,h the religious ceremonies established, by the Church. — Now, it these concessions. were made to the 4:athbz lies, would it not be said that they ought to extend to all classes of Dissenters Could the exclusion be extended to different:Sects' who conscietitiousle ad hered to their particulitteithr If those concessions were made, the Parliament would no longer be a Protestant Parliament..• The effect • would be to dis solve all' connection between' the Church' and. State 'as such. At the revolution, all the ,system was made complete; and it was declared that the King.must be a Protestant. Therefore, he would ask,. it it was possible to draw a fair line of exclusion between the regal office and other offices. He did not think that the concessions in question would heal the animosil ties existing between Catholics and Protestapts—and it was because he thought it would have the very op polite effect thee lit: opposed' . the motion for going into a.Ctimmitteq: Ito the motion tlieuld be asiopled; and Catholics were to be ,put on the seine. rot/sing • with Protestants, still we should have a Cathirlic pplation in Ireland with a l'Atestant estahlishrreet. In such a state of things, could there he any se c % thiqz as peace or harmony ? Such VAS the ee z ul,,,, situation of Ireland, that no such system creole! b t *adopted there as existed in other counirie , wh ere the population followed the establishment. T't Tiestinn then was, whether such coLcess-one as t':ese stated by the. Ntible.l:nveie - enithel he made with safety ? his epioen, the effect of this would he, to-weelr.- 1 ,6 a establishment, by taking away the pewit Ira t a p , potted it. Even then,'heaske . f,.if the evil crimil.ip e d of was likely to he corrected ? "Nei, every individual Catholic would still feel that Fe was paging teveards the expense of the establishment, and he rine.e feel an interest in doing it away. He entertained no in- Vielieus feelings towards Catholics; but he must say, that their religion was tine e; exclusion. The Cattas. tics welt the exclusionists—for they bud sfeclar; ! l in a late resolution, that they tonsilered ever ttleratioia.. ti be inconsistent e.-ith their faifh..:-We were Own' about to treat persons who, it they had the. power in their hands, would exclude es—(Hae, hear.) There was but one safe course to pursue with Repro to our eeclesiestieal 2nd civil Constitution; nnd that WAS, to keep them t4,eether. To make these concessions would be tr level all distinctions, to Un. settle men's mindi, and weaken the f-undations our political structure. To any concession that c ou ld be made consistently v ith tie principle be laid dawn,. he would be ready to give lrs ac4ent ; Fri t h e never would suffer a c! inge to take place in ibe Const:zu %ion t hat went to alter Le l'rott.s,tant es;eb::shment, and theretore he must oppose the motion teeiate the House. Earl DARNLEY conceived that nn crtry ciple of sound policy and justice it was necess try to make the concessions now called fir, and Ca. tholics should enjoy the same privileges as Protestants did, on their giving such security as might be agreed on. And it was a monstrous proposition to suppose that by giving them a full participation of rights, they would feel . disposed to overturn the Govern. ment, which they must then have such an additional interest in supporting. The more he considered ilk subject, the More he was convinced, that wiesout the concessions in question, kreland would never be in a tranquil or happy state, and he hoped the Catholics would not now be disappointed in'tbeir expectations. Lord GR EN VILLP:did not-conceive it necessary . to go over the wide and comprehensive field that had already been entered on by others. A Right Reverend Friend of his had once truly said, that this was not a 1 question for nice metaphysical distinctions, but that it was a question for Statesmen and Legislators. He would, sot 'yaw enter into the re fi nements of theoloe gical reasoning ; the subject 'was one of too prat and gigantic it:won:time:for such ecnsiderationt.—, The 1-isur%was to look onlx to, the practical effects of the measure proposid. Ilere was a practical questiOn. coming home to the interests and (obeys of every man ; it was one in which them were nem but iniainary dangers, end on the ground of entse dangers a measure, invelvirg in it the slfety and happiness of the State, was to be resisted. He could not see how it untold shake the cennexitis. between the Cl . .u:cht and the. State. Nothing could tend mete to strengeten the connexion between Church aed State, and uphold the Constitution, than to c invitee these people that the Government considhred :he worthy tit being ousted. The evil nine comp:aimed of originated in the persecuting spirit of the penal thews; and it was continued by the pertinacious refusal to do away those lass —(Hoar, hear). — fie defied the ingenuity of man to spew how the; removal, and the granting of privileges to the Catao- Jics, could weaken our Establishment. The la c, as it now stood, gave fo the Catholics all that was dan gerous, it danget was to be apprehended. The mili tary rank to which a Catholic could arrive gee him more power to abuse his trust and do mischiel than 'if he were a General Officer. Ile knew no nsx presbmptuous enough to answer the question ef , :n Noble Earl, whether, if Catholics obtained what thl nose asked, it would rest thew ? That depended ea the course of events, on the wisdom of legislating, ail a variety of other causes ; hut it was his opinion—en opinicn confirmed by experience, that the best war of consolidating the strergth and the safety of tie British Empire was, to extend the principle of [Arra rtion to that important part of it which lrelatd in eluded. if there was one thing more than mother estimable in the character cf William Ill; it was, tfa he was the first to adopt this liberal and enlarrsd policy. Toleration was the doeuine, nay, tie nein detiou of the glorious revolution; and all the elf ass that were now made f9r extending the enjoy:nein d political rights to his Majesty's Catholic subjtco, were nothing more than attempts to restore and re• assert tie principles of tie Constitution. It was for merly objected, that it would be dangerous to mate an experiment of this kind in a time ~ t• war ; but that was now at an end. Ireland had put tcrih ter strength, and sactiticed her best blot); in conqusrisg a peace, and now was the time to acknowledge to services by doing that - which cett:sinly ought to IA done; first, because it was an act of duty; and, secondly, because it was a matter of interest and el' pediency, and v:ould tend to make the two coootries one in heart and affection, as they were one in iallai• cal constitution.—( Hear, Afar.) Earl BATHURST took a. general view of the , varions opinions entettrined by the friends to Cell:c lic Emancipation. He (injected to go into a Cur". ; mince without some specific phis before them; ar i• they came out of it without doing any thing to meet 1 the wishes of the petitioners, disappointment rou4 I he the consequence, and in the Committee, ra het than do this, the ) might be induced to A gree to 0..4 1 which, on better consideration, they would think ;la ivolitic. When it was :hewn .that the Eattdisked Church would be sale if the Catholic Claims were con iceded, he might be disposed to entertain the ale 4 ' 4l ` . His Noble Friend had skid things could cot sta. d has they were. He n ould answer this by salq , Ithings bad stood v:htere they were for some tini..:,e , ta he would not consent- to quit the ground on witirl:e hid rested so long, to pass through bogs and aw - I rasses, till some spot could be pointed out to Lan 1 where he cou;d stand a., well. .If they departed :To= where they were at present, they might taJt he able to stop till they had gone on from measure to measure, and made the situation ef the Protestant sUbjel l Worse than that of the Roman Catholic ; and obi% this was dune, and tare Protestant ascendancy til l ~. .sacrificed, he raw no prospect tit satisfying the Cele lica of Leland. With this feeling he would not nw