Star. — London, England, 1831-07-01 00:00:00

t I t late and tlie pr seat mirietets. (A laugh.) Ile would not go seen elseals, b-t mild content himself with node:og one or two eeneral fact*. The amount of the salaries of the public servants in 1797, was 1,300,0001; in 1815, the amount was 3.200,0001. There had been some reductions made by the mi . ristere. but they were very few, and by no means equal to the wants of the people, and what his censtltuents deemed, as he learned from the instructions he had received from them, the pubic bad a right to expect.—(Hear, hear.) lie then read Sir James Graham's resolution of February, 1030. It referred to the large augmentations that had taken place in salaries on ut:count of the reduced value of money ; it set forth that such cause bad ceased to exist, and urged the jus t:ce of reduction. Therefore ought he rot to calculate on the right honourable baronet's suppor. He then next read the Secretary to the Treasury's resolution, palliating the original revolution, and which was adopte d; but its sentiment was in reality the same. On these grounds he. expected the support of both parties. (Hear and a laugh.) He had alluded to two facts as to the amounts of the salaries in 1797 and in 1915; he would mention Bonne father particulars connected with those facts, to slaw the specie' of salaries that had increased. The amount had in. cren•cd two-thirds, from 1,300,0001. in 1797, the amount had risen to 3,200.0001. in 1815 ; in 1829, the amount was 2,789,0031. some reduction having taken place. He did not. , wish to go back to the salaries of 1797, but the large salaries were susceptible of great reduction. Those were what he attacked. (Hear. hear.) He would just slaw bow the high salaries prevailed. There were 1.783 persofts whose salaries were between 2301. and 1,0001. a year—the average was 4001. a year. There were 982 persons whose average salary was 2,0001. a year—many of them held two or three offices. He was alluding to persons who were not members I of Parliament. The 1.783 persons who received on en ave rage 4001. a year, were the working classea ; while the 982 persons who received, on an average, 2,0001. a year, did very little work. Some had two or three offices, and what was worse, they knew nothing of the duties of their offix. Many of them did nothing. He was bound to call on the house to afford a remedy ; the necessi ies of the people re. quire(' it. As they had not power to reduce the debt, relief in the expenditure ought to be afforded ; he thought there' ought to be at least a committee of inquiry, to a-certain whether there could not be 1,000,0001. reduced in the amount of the salaries. That might be effected. Prices . were now lower in many instances than they were in 1792. — in this motion he had consulted no one, neither the present nor the late administration. He had not even asked for a seconder; he had brought forward the motion from a sense of duty. Ile thought if the motion were resisted that a committee of inquiry ought to be granted Ile concluded with moving a resolution, declaring that the salaries of pub lic offices ought to be reduced to those of 1797—regard being had to the alteration in the prices of the necessaries of life. Mr. HUNT seconded the motion. He was about to' speak, bot seeing Lord Althorp on his legs he resumed his rent. Lord ALTHORP said, he thought the house, if it had any confidence in the Government, could not concur in this motion. The Government had commenced the work of very extensive reductions in the salaries, beginning with those of the highest offices. They had reduced the salaries of the Commiesioners of Customs, and had alt: red the constitution of the Board ; similar reductions were extended to the Ex cise departmem ; and they were carrying the like principles into all the other departments of Government. Ile and those who thoueht with him, when out of office, had urged the ne cessity of these seductions; and now that they were in office they were endeavouring to carry those principles of economy and retrenchment into effect—(hear, hear ;) but at the same time, as the period of 1797 was referred en, it became him to add, that the reductions must have reference to the increased duties and responsibility in many instances when compared with the services paid for in 1797. If the House thought they were sincere in their endeavours , to promote economy and retrenchment—the Treasury mi.' notes of March, 18:10, giving some proof of the efforts mak ing; if the House thnught the Ministers were proceeding as rapidly as they well could do wi h so important and difficult a subject , the present motion would not—could not be sanc tioned. if adopted, it would show that the House had not such opinion of the conduct of Ministers; and, if adopted, it could not be viewed as being other than a censure on the Ministers.—(Hear, hear.) If sanctioned, in that light he must view it.—(Hear.) With these feelings on the subject, he must conclude with moving the " previous question."— (Hear, hear.) Mr. HUNT said that he had seconded the motion cheer fully—the Hon. Alderman knew he bad a seconder in him, for he had moved the instruction at the common hall, which recommended this motion. It was a perfectly just motion. The hon. aldieman had fairly stated that the prices of pro visions were as cheap now as they were in 1797, and that at a subsequent period, because the prices of provisions had increased, the salaries were risen. (A laugh.) Well, he thanked the lion. gentlemen for correcting him; lie under stood that he ought to hare said that " the salaries had been raised." (A laugh.) And now as the prices of necessaries were cheaper, that the rate of salaries ought to he reduced to the same as it was in 1797. lie had done his duty, not withstanding the laughter that had been raised against hint. ( A laugh.) He did not come there to raise a factious opposition ; but when he mentioned any thing about the people there was always a great laugh set up : but if the noble lord opposite mentioned the people he was always loudly cheered; but he (Mr. H.) did not care for that—he stood there the representative of the people, and he would ad vocate their cause ; but what he meant by the people was not the people whom the noble lord meant ; the noble lord by people meant those who paid rents of WI. and who were pro vided for in the bill; but the people whom he (Mr. Hunt) meant were those who did not pay tents of 101. and who were not provided for by the bill. Ile thought the rea sons given by the worthy alderman for his motion were good, and if they would grant him a committee, that he would show how a saving might be effected of one million. He had stated that there were no less than nine hundred persons on salaries of 2,0001. a-year, and that these were many who received large salaries who did nothing. The honourable member then proceeded to censure the honourable gentlemen seated on the Ministerial benches, who, while they seemed to advocate Reform and retrenchment, would oppose such a motion as this when the country was in so distressed a state. They might attribute the disturbances of last year to whatever cause they chose ; but these disturbances had been occasioned entirely by extreme distress. With this fact before their eyes, he would ask Ministers if they could refuse to yield a small portion of their Wailes, and while, at the same time, they came forward to declare, that they were going to reduce the annul salaries of those who did the drudgery of the public offices, they could object to allow the example in themselves? They might pass the Reform bill, but the country would give them no credit for it, unless they conferred along with it some sub stantial benefit on the people. They had raised the expecta tions of the people by the speeches which had been made about reform, economy and retrenchment, which, no doubt, had been read with great satisfaction all over the kingdom, until the people had been worked up to a state of excite inent---(hear. hear)—he would repeat it, they had been ex cited--and the whole of the Members of that house had been returned under the influence of that excitement— (hear, hear)—that the people were labouring under a de. lusion.—(Hear, hear.) Ile hoped that for thus expres sing himself he would not again hear of the cld cuckoo note, that he was an enemy to reform. (Great laughter.) He did no; mean to charge Ministers with having deluded the people, for they had carefully fenced themselves against any promise of immediate berefit ; hut the out-scouts of Ministers had deluded the people—the public press had deluded the people. Unless something were done for the people, there would be no satisfaction in the country, for the public press had deceived the whole country. He had been laughed at because he alluded to his trade, and had mentioned that he kept servants ; but he was not ashamed to own that he lived by trade, and he would ask some, of chow honourable members who had laughed, whether they had not owed all their honours to their success in trade ; and whether their coats sat any the worse on their backs, or their coronets on their heads, that they had been connected in trade. ( A laugh.) He was not to be put' down by a laugh. lie could tell them that great distress existed among tradesmen, and many of them had much difficulty in obtaining ten shillings of ready money. If they were asked how they did, they replied that they were actually living on their stock ; but so much was the delusion abroad, that they all said trade would resive and business would become more brisk whenever that the Reform Bill was passed. This lie knew was the general opinion wherever he had been. He would relate one instance to show how ge neral the delusion was. There was a gentleman in So. mersetsbire to whom a servant girl offered herself,—(a laugh)—she offered herself as a waitingsmaid, or some. thing,—(a laugh)—to his wife. The lady was quite satisfied with the testimonials of the maid, and offered to engage her, but as one stipulation the engagement must be foe a year or half a year at least ; the girl, refused the place, and declared that she could not think of, engaging for half a year, because by that time the Reform' Bill would be passed. (Cries of hear, hear, and laughter.) He did not know what might be the Intention of the worthy alderman with his motion, but he (Mr. Hunt) was deter mined to divide the House on it if the forms of the House would permit him. The Maiden had with all their pro. fessions increased the standing army and the yeomanry ca valry. He did not mean to vindicate the conduct of those who had committed the outrages; but when he considered that in one district they had been goaded on by distre's and starva tion almost to death • he could not forget that they had not fi red a single sh ot, but had confined themselves to breaking a few machines, and that Blinkers had been praising the Yeomanry Cavalry for some cf their acts. He would appeal to the house more than the Ministers to support the motion of the worthy alderman. They could never have a more reformed Parliament than the present, and the people were now so excited, that if they hail not reform they must have a revolution. (Hear, hear.) He stood for the people — he meant those not included in theßeform Bill; and he would call upon the house to teach ministers, it they would not team it by themselves. thty must not tamper with the feel ings of the ec,untry. He would second the motion ; and he would remind the hon. members of the wcrds of the worthy alderman, who had told such members who had constitu ents, to consult the feelings of their constituents, and those who had nu constituents, to consult their own feelings. He (Mr. Hunt) would do the same thing, and re. commend the••t all to bear it in mind, if they aver intended again to get into that house. The hon. member begun to express himself as if naming a committee formed part of the motion, but on being put right in that particular, be sat down, after a few more general expressions in support of the motion. Col. SIBTHOR PR said, he was highly delighted to hear the Hon. 'Member for Preston, who professed himself a Re former. expressing sentiments so congenial to the convic tion of himself (Col. It.'ibthorpe.) He was perfectly satisfied that the people had been deluded, and that they never could have a more reftrated Parliament than the present. The Gallant Colonel went into a few particulars regarding un necessary expenditure, and declared himself a supporter l of retrenehntert, and of the motion of the worthy Al. derman. Mr. HUNT explained. Mr. HUM E said that he could not suffer the present dis cussion to pass without offering a few observations. If the hon. member for Preston had attended to the paper which he ( Mr. Hume) held in his hand, and which had been laid before the house, he could not have said, or at least he could not have had any right to say, that ministers had not shewn the example of reducing their own salaries. The hon. mem ber here read extracts trom the paper, and recapitulated the worde of the noble lord (Althorp) when he introduced and recommended the measure of a committee of inquiry on the subject. The honourable member for Preston did not wish to hear again the old cuckoo cry; but he, neverthelest,would always go on putting himself in fault. (Hear.) The Ho. nourable nieniber proceeded to read extracts of the different rates of salaries which had all been reduced, some of them lower than they had been in 1797 ; he then narrated the manner in which the committee had been conducted, in which there had no one acted who held a Government office, and stated, that after the most minute investigation, the resolu_ tions of the committee had all been confirmed by his Ma. jesty'a Government, according to the report which had been upon the table on the 3d of Alarm. They had all shewn the example. He denied that the people of England had been deluded ; no species of delusion, he said, could ever have worked the people up to that degree of enthusiasm which they manifested. He scouted the anecdote of the Somerset maid-servant, as • very silly il_ lustration. He said that reform was only the means of effecting good, as it would lead to a cheaper Govern ment ; but they must first have reform, before they could successfully attempt reduction. He was surprised that the lion. member for Preston should have said that we could net ver have a more reformed parliament that the present, when he knew that in the return of the present parliament there were upwards of 100 nominees. [Mr. Hunt seemed to die avow the expression.] He thought he had used the seed went as it had been expressed by the hon. member for Pres ton. He thought that no obstruction should be thrown in the way of ministers at this time. The lion. member for Preston had not done justice to his Majesty's ministers— in upbraiding them with not reducing their own salaries ; for the reductions quoted had actually been carried into effect ; and the reason why he (Mr. Hume) had mentioned this so particularly was, that although they had done so, he would declare that they could not redeem their pledge, unless they carried the reductions into every department of the public service, and if they did so in the same proportion there would be no room for com plaint. He considered the present motion as ill.timed and injudicious, but still he must say, that if the worthy Alder man pressed for a division, he (Mr. Hunie) would be bound to divide with him. (Hear.) lie would enter his protest against its going forth to the country that nothing would be done for them by the Reform BilL The army and navy were the principal causes of the burdens of the country, and until these were reduced no substantial relief could be effected, and this he expected would be the first act of a re formed Parliament. The Honourable Alderman, in bring. ing forward this motion, performed his instructions from his constituents, and he redeemed his pledge, and he hoped no more would be required. Mr. HUNT rose and explained amidst cries of " No, no." 31% EWA RT rope to reply to the attack made upon the bench on which he sat for having laughed ; which lie ex 'stained by saying that it was not the words that occasioned him to smile, but it was the singular manner in which the lion. Member for Preston introduced the people, and his allusions to his being in trade and keeping servants. M. O'CONNELL was desirous to notice two or three of the assertions that had been made by the hon. member for Preston, betides the flat contradictions to the charge of the refusal en the part of teinistets to reduce their salaries,which had been given to the allegation by the hon. member foe Middlesex. He (Mr. O'Connell) had to object to the line drawn for reduction by the mo ion, by reverting to the rate of 1797. It was necessary that the house should see clearly the situation in a hich they stood. If they reverted to the rate of 1797, they would tind that they would not effect a reduction equal to that which ministers had done of their own accord. (Hear.) And under these circumstances they were to be told in such terms, that because the house would not sustain such a measure as the one proposed—that the re jection amounted to a refusal to hearken to the distresses of the country. (Hear, hear.) The honourable member had asserted the people had all been deluded and deceived; but he (Mr. O'Connell) could tell him that they were neither deceived nor deluded, and that he must have known that they could not be deceived. There was no possibility now of deriving the people either of England, Ireland, or Scotland. They had common sense—and they could distinguish sincerity from professions. (Cheers.) They could discern b.tween sham interest and their real rights (Hear), and they knew real reformers from mock reformers. (Cheer.) The Imo. member, after expressing his satisfaction of the conduct of Ministers in the case of the reduction, alluded to their efforts in the cause of reform, and said that in that par ticular they were about to erect a temple to the genius of the i British Constitution. Mr. SADLER thought that there could be no objection on the part of ministers to support the mvasure, as it would only teed to strengthen their own act. He contended that reduction of &dare a ought to take place, because that reduces tion of proles on trade and agriculture had been severely felt ; and he thought that as the measure. merely went to take the potter of reducing salaries into the bands of the house, that the ministers, advocating Reform, ought not to oppose it. Mr. MA BERLY begged leave to remark that the ques tion was not prup:rly brough t before the House. He was astonished that the hon. aderman, who had been a mem ber of so many committees, had not known which was the best way to arrive at a proper conclusion. He bud heard the honourable member for Preston charge the members on that side of the House with changing their opinion, but he (Mr. Bleberly) threw back the imputation with all the contempt that the charge deserved. He would ask if they had forfeited a single pledge that they had given, and he would state, that instead of government having refused, they had most fully implemented all their engage ments. It was on that ground that he bad supported the present Government, and whenever they swerved from these principles, humble individual as he was, he would imme diately withdraw his support from them. When reduction of salaries had been proposed, their measures had been op. posed by the former Government, and even when a report of a Committee had been laid before the House, they set them selves against it, and rejected the recommendation. How different had been the conduct of the present Government, who bad themselves suggested and carried the reduction into practice! Mr. DAWSON said that he agreed with the Hon. !dau ber for Middlesex in saying that the measure was injudi cious, but he would not act as he bad declared himself, notwithstanding conviction to vote for it. He (Mr. Dawson) would vote . against it. He did not know we the Hon. Alderman had obtained his information but hs bad made so strange a statement that no one Gould comprehend him. He (Mr. Dawson), notwithstanding his experhice in once, and acquaintance with figures, could not understand the Abisentan's application of the figures, and it would seem that ** Worthy Alderman had felt that he did not understand *en himself, for he had very carefully refrained from going Into details. It appeared, according to returns now on the table, stating the number of persons, and amount of salaries in seventy-three offices in the years 1821 and 1829 ; that in 1821, the number of persons employed was 26,243 ; the amount of salaries received 3,694,0001. and that in 1829, the persons equalled 22,670 ; the salaries 3,099,0001 making a reduction of about 4,000 persons, and 600,0001. a year (hear.) Including the reductions ordered in the Treasury minutes, the total of persons reduced formed the unexampled number of 4,050, and the salaries 794,0001. It could not be mid, with suet, facts before them, that the preceding government was indifferent to the public distress. He was satisfied that it had effected every reduction consist. ent with the efficiency of public service. He must express his astonishment at the speech of the Hon. Member for iVa terford,vrhom lie regreted not to see in his place, he meant the member for Kerry—it wasalmost impossible to remember to what county the Hon. Member belonged. He must say that the attack of that hon. member on the hon. member for Preston (a laugh) was as indecent as any member could make on another. His loud approbation of the present Go vernment, the manner in which he persecuted it with his support and adulation. excited, he confessed a suspicion in his mind that the testimony of the hon. member was not genuine. (Hear, and murmurs.) He (Mr. Dawson) did not pretend to be the advocate of the Member for Preston (Laughter) ; there were not two membets less likely to agree ; but he must say that for a member to come down and accuse another of every thing that was nonsensical and absurd, was a most indecent attack. (Oh ! Oh!) With re spect to the reductions of the present Government, with the exception of twenty thousand pounds, recommended by a late committee, and another rum of ten thousand pounds, which, after much discussion, they had given up, the reduc tions were null. (Hear, from the Ministerial side.) The army and navy estimates had been increased. Now, if there were no reductions in the public burthens, in the estimates, in the pensions—that great source of declamation for the Right Hon. Baronet opposite when in opposition — what ground was then for the lavish praises of the Member for Middlesex, and those around him, towards the present Government? (Hear, hear.) Who could recollect the denunciations of the Right Honourable Baronet against the sinecures and pensions, and believe that he now sat down satisfied with a reduction of thirty thousand pounds a year? After denouncing the pensions as the source of distress, and by exciting the public mind, over thrown the late Government, the Oppositionists found them. selves, on effecting their entrance intooflice, unable to make re ductions. It was then that, to divert public attention, they had recourse to the Reform Bill. (Heat, and Oh, uh.) No re duction, It was now apparent, could be eff, eted in the esti mates and the civil list, the national debt could alone be touched. He did not accuse ministers of such an intention, but they were giving others the means of doing so. He felt satisfied that the reduction of the debt, and the ruin of public credit, would be the effects of a reformed parliament. —(No, and hear.) Gentlemen opposite might say " No!" and the mountaineers behind him night cheer him, but the ruin of funded, colonial, and church property, was approach ing, and this would have been effected by the unfounded de clamations of honourable gentlemen opposite, who, now they were in office, found themselves unable to do more than their predecessors.—(Hear. hear.) Sir JAMES GRAHAM could not congratulate the right hon. gentleman in that feeling which made him deem it impossible that a gentleman could do justice to his po litical opponent without some base compromise or secret understanding. (Great cheering.) He could not have be lieved that the right hon. gentleman could not hear the hon. member for Kerry do simple justice to government, by a statement of facts, without reverting to • subject so clearly explained by the Secretary for Ireland, and throwing a doubt on the assertion, to which the Secretary for Ire land had pledged his honour. that between the honourable member for Kerry and government, neither directly nor indirectly, was there any compromise whatever. (Hear, hear.) Certainly, if given to like suspicions, he might comment on that marvellous connexion --(hear, hear) —which had arisen so suddenly between the right Honourable Gentleman and the Honourable Member for Preston. Certainly politics led to strange coalitions — (cheers from both sides) - but there was as yet no precedent for • coalition between one who pretended to be a real Reformer, and another who was no reformer, and who lost his office because his leader pronounced against all Re form, and declared that " the present system of repre sent:don was the most perfect that the heart of man could conceive."—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had prided himself much upon what he (Sir J. Graham) had said when on the other side of the House. He by no means re gretted the words he had then used ; he felt confident that since in office, he had made all his endeavours to act up to them. He had certainly commented on the salaries of the then minis ters, he had more particularly complained of their beingplu. rallies, holding sinecures together with their high offices, whilst poor half-pay officers were deprived of their military allowance on similar occasions. Now, was there one mem ber of the present Government, to which such a charge could apply? With respect to salaries the president of the mined had been reduced 20 per cent. the Lord Privy Seal IS per cent. the four Secretaries of State at least 20 per cent. Me reduction in the Presidentship of the Board of Controul had been protested against by the opposition ; his own o ffi ce bad been reduced 10 per cent; the Deputy ontroullership of the Navy 25 per cent. (Hear, hear.) The Right Ho. 'mumble gentleman having enumerated other reductions, proceeded to say that, like the member for Aldbo rough. he had always protested against reductions beginning with the inferior officers. The present Ministers had set the example by reducing their own salaries. They had then, and not till then, addressed themselves to the upper branches. In the Customs, in which he was bound to say, the late Government, stimulated by the then Opposition, bad, during the last eighteen months of its administration, made great reductions, the present Government had reduced sveral Commissionerships. The Excise was undergoing an examination. In his own office, to which he alluded only in erlf-defence, he bad abolished eight situations of from 8001. to 1,0001. a-year. and from forty to fifty un necessary offices. (Hear, hear.) He did not say this was ' all that could be done ; he only asked for time. In the next sseeion, government would render to that house an account, which, he had no doubt, would be satisfactory, if parliament would but give them time. (Hear.) Something had fallen Amu the right hon. gentleman respecting parliamentary re form. He had connected that subject with the destruction otpublic credit and of our institutions. It was somewhat singular that those who should be the most sensitive on this point--namely, the public creditors—entertained a diame trically opposite opinion. Public credit, since the introduc tion of the Reform Hill, had vastly improved. (No and bear.) Was the the hon. gentleman who said no ignorant of the fact tbat the stocks had increased six or seven per cent; that see of the resolutions, in the City Reform Address, was moved by one of the greatest fundholders of the country ? (bear.) The reform measure was necessary for the preser. widen of internal tranquillity; and. if so, was it not neces sary for the preservation of public credit ? When the late Ministers abandoned office, declaring themselves unable any longer to guide the helm of the state—(oh ! oh ! and hear.) What was the state of the country ? The six home coos. ties of England were almost in open rebellion • the state of Ireland sou most alarming; our foreign affai rs were dies turbed (a laugh.) Were these facts to be denied ? The lion. Gentletuar who laughed would be more courteous if he answered by some argument. He felt confident that It was in the power of Government to effect great reductions in the military establishments, which, he agreed with 1110 Hon. Member for Middlesex were the source of great distress ; but the public tranquillity must be first erected by the introduction of reform. The success of all measures of retrenchment was dependant on the success of that great measure, which Ministers had introduced as a ne preliminary, by which they were determined to stand c o t :7a and which having effected with the support of dm pas*, they would be enabled to redeem all their pledges, Ned go down to posterity (Oh ! oh !) as consistent with tbsk pia. eiples and the accompliehen of the measure, without which the Govbrnment of this country could not be safely or Ito nourably conducted. (Great cheering.) Mr. tiOULBURN would not discuss with the Right Hon. Baronet the opinions of posterity on the question of the Reform bill, which he considered quite foreign to the subject. He denied that the late Government had fled front the helm. Acting on a principle previously adopted in that house, and entirely consistent with the character and dignity of Government, when the Commons were opposed to Ministers on a great question they tendered their resigna tion ; and, having last the confidence of that house, asked to withdraw from the public service. Other governments might pursue a different course. They might propene measures disapproved of by the house, and still retain their offices ; he did not pretend to judge those men, but, together with the conscientiousness of having done their duty, the lots Ministers had also the satisfaction of having punned the course adopted by the most honourable men in the best times of the constitution. The Right Honourable Baronet said ministers, on assuming office, had found the country in difficulties. lie agreed that there were insurrections; but he asked him whether lie had ever the least doubt as to their termination, whoever might be the ministets ? (Cheers.) Whether measures had not already been taken by the late Government,and whether these disorders had not been finally put down by the good sense of the country ? With respect to Ireland, that country still appeared to be in a situation as disturbed as ever. The great question of the union was WU in agitation. They were told that grea. reductions were 10 be effected hereafter in our military establishments. When ever the state of the country was tranquillized. and admitted of those reductions, he should be most gratified to see them in progress. But be trusted that if there was anything in our internal situation calling for the protection of property, or in our external relations that demanded our name to lie re spected, that ministers would not, to secure the cheers of those behind him, consent to reductions inconsistent with the welfare and honour of the nation.—(hear ) Mr. STANLEY said this debate was most extraordinary for inconsistency between words and acts. The Member for Middlesex agreed with Ministers that the motion of the worthy Alderman was inopportune, end yet declared he would support it. The late Secretary for tire Treasury was the warm advocate of the Member for Preston, and voted ;realest him. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer, after attacking his Eight llonourable Friend, for introducing the Refonn question, which he did only in reply to a formes speaker, himself proceeded to speak of subjects quite foreign to the discussion. lie had attacked Ministers for remaining iu office. Now 31inisters hail pledg d themselves to one great measure, they had staked their reputation and public character in its cause ; they would leave no means untried so carry it, and having done so, they would not retain office one instant longer than they retained the conlidence of that house. — There was not one of them who would shrink from office, however laborious or thankless, so lone as they con scientiously believed they could hold it for the benefit of the country.—{ileac, hear.) The late Ministry shrunk from office, because they had lost the support of the people.— (Hear, hear.) They were beaten on the Civil List question. and the Duke of Wellington admitted then he resigned on that tmestion rather than encounter the question of Reform. The 'Right lion. Gentleman and his colleagues had been beaten mu many former questions, but adiketed to office with a pertinacity which he did not condemn. The state of Ire land was comparatively tranquil when compared with the state in which it was left by the late ministry. There was no mea. sure that would tend more to tranquillize Ireland than the wee sure of Reform which the Hight Hon. Gent. was opposing. The right hon. gent. appeared to suppose that it was iinpos. sible for him ( Mr. Stanley) and the bon. member for Kerry. to act in support of any measure without a compromise.— The hon. member for Ktrry had acquitted hint of any com promise, and lie thunked him fot it ; but he should think himself disgraced if he allowed any political feelings to pre vent his cordially cooperating with the hon. member for Kerry when lie found him exerting his great talents in sup port of the Constitution. He doubted whether the iron. a. derman would put his motion to the test of a division, but if he should, he (Mr. Stanley) never went to a division with a clearer consience, or more confident of being supported by public opinion. (Hear. hear.) Mr. GILLON said the late Secretary of the Treasury took great credit for their retrenchments ; but the public well knew they owed reductions which the late government were compelled to make to the unceasing, ever-consistent, and patriotic member for Middlesex. (Hear, hear, hear.) Already a great improvement had taken place in the condi. don of the labouring population of Scotland, which he at tributed to the great credit government had acquired with the country. (Hear, hear.) The unnatural combination that had taken place against Ministers bad for its object to perpetuate the plunder of the people. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Alderman WOOD replied, and said he should divide the House, as he thought every member returned by the people_ mutt feel, that he was pledged to economy and Reform. _ _ The House divided. For the motion ... ... .. .. ... IS Against it .. ... ... .. .. .. 216 Majority against the motion ... 203 Mr. CAMPBELL rose ter leave to bring in a bill to establish a general registry of title deeds, and other docu ments affecting real property, in England and Wales. Lord MORPETH said, as his Learned Friend was willing to exempt the county of York, which had already a registry of its own, frotn its operation, he should not oppose the bill. Mr. SCHONS WAR hoped the town of Hull would also be exempted from the operation of the bill. Mr. R. H. GURNEY said he should oppose the bill, which ought not to be speed to by the House without an examination of persona most competent to give them infor mation on the subject. Mr. STRICKLAND said, the registry in Yorkshire had given a certain degree of satisfaction for upwards of a hun dred years; and whatever defects it had might be completely remedied. Reformer as he was, he could not see the wisdom of overturning old institutions that were effective and satis factory. Mr. LYTTLETON said he had endeavoured to ascertain the opinion of landed proprietors on the bill, and found they had not come to any conclusion on the subject. He thought the bill might be carried to a second reading and committee in the present session, and then allowed to stand over till another session. Mr. BLAMIRE said the noptehension of the bill had spread dismay through Cumberland. and he hoped the hon. gentleman would either give up the bill, or exempt the sisethern counties from its operation. Mr. SPENCE was of opinion that the bill should pass, with the exception as far as regards the county of York. Mr. O'CONNELL spoke to the beneficial effects resulting from the registry system in Ireland. Mr. FERGUSON, in a few words, supported the motion. The greatest possible security had been given to the landed property in Scotland, by the system of registry acted upon n that country. Mr. LEFROY was convinced of the expediency of adopt ing a registry in England. Mr. CAMPBELL in reply observed, that the opponents to the bill were, as a friend of his had exprrssed it. giving to the solicitors and attorneys of England and Wales a vested right to three-fourths of the landed property of the country. (A laugh.) Leave was given to bring in the bill. Mr. CAMPBELL then obtained leave to bring in bills relating to the law of inheritance, dower, and courtesy. OUTRAGE IX NEWTOWERARRY. Mr. LAMBERT rose and moved for a copy of the cow mission and evidence in relation to the late disturbances Newtownbarry, in Ireland. In doing so the Hon. Gentle.. man entered into a statement of the circumstances attending the outrage, as has already been published ; and took sees. sion to observe that, though no friend to a repeal of the legislative union between this country and Ireland, still if some salutary step were not immediately adopted on behalf of that country, the demands for the repeal of the union would be so powerful, that all the force of police and yeo manry would not be able to overcome. Col. CHICHESTER, in seconding the motion, corrobo rated the statements of the hon. gentleman who brought for ward the motion. Mr. STANLEY said he could assure the House that no man was more anxious than he was to throw every light upon the unfortunate circumstances alluded to by the hon. gentleman who had brought forward the question. It would be the most earnest endeavour of his Majesty's Go verment to act in the fairest and most impartial man ner, in regard to the lamentable disturbances which were the subject of the present tuotiou ; (hear,) but during the investigation that was going on he S hear ,) not feel himself at liberty to comply with the motion before the House ; the ease will very shortly come before the Assizes, and the de gree of moderation or intemperance exhibited by the magis trateson the occasion would be fully Investigated. Under these circumstances, he trusted the boo. gentleman would not force him (Mr. Stanley) to oppose his motion, but rather that he would see the propriety of withdrawing it. (Hear.) He should feel it to be his duty, at the close of the proceedings, to lay the whole before the House and he trusted that hon. gentlemen, in the exercise of sound discretion, would abstain from requiring any information on the sub ject till such period, lest they should prejudge the cue. Mr. O'CONNELL said that he had not yet heard of a single arrest having taken plats, notwithstanding the dread. ful and fatal nature of the Mr. STANLEY admits bra net bowl at any oust having taken place ; but, as be lid air* silk die skis affair was under investigation by the pups autbseitiss. Mr. BLAKENEY complained dos an Hon. Gentleman opposite appeared to smile during the =hal of the Hon. Member, who brought forward themodon. (Outer.) The SPEAKER assured the boa gentleman that no member of that house was capable of treating with levity the question under discussion. The bon gentleman must be aware that be could not impugn the n•otien of anodic- hon. gentleman. - - Mr. BLAKENEY resumed, and detailed at considerable length the occurrences which had taken place at Newtown. bawl. Fa J. M. DOYLE said the yeomanry of England and the yeomanry of Ireland were very different bodies of men; for the one he had the greatest respect, but he could not Cr,. terrain a similar feeling with respect to the other. Hetrustd the honourable gentleman in the mean time would see th e propriety of withdrawing his motion. Before he sat down. he would suggest that the arms of the yeomanry of Ireland ought not always to remain with them ; from such a course the greatest danger was to be apprehended. Colonel CHICHESTER was of opinion, after the state. meats of the Right Honourable the Secretary for Ireland. it would be improper to pursue the discussion further. Mr. HUNT was surprised that the Honourable Gentle. man the Secretary for Ireland, should refuse to give the re. quired information. The Hon. Gentleman was proceeding at some length to animadvert upon some cinumstances which had a personal allusion to h im self, when The SPEAKER rose to order. The Hon. Gentleman resumed, but was obliged to sit down amid repeated cries of Question and Otder. Mr. HELMS was convinced that the ends of justice would be best served by the hon. gentleman withdrawing his mo tion. He wished to know if the Magistrates had been al. lowed to retain their situations. . _ Mr. STANLEY said there was a bill before ;the other Rouse of Parliament for continuing the Magistracy of Ire. land for the ensuing six months, preparatory to a revision of the system. The motion was then withdrawn. MOLASSES. Mr. P. THOMSON moved for leave to have a committee appointed to inquire into the expediency of admitting me. lasses into breweries and distilleries. Captain MA ITLA ND said, as far as the interests of Scotland were concerned he should watch with much sus. picion the progress of any measure, which had for its end the introduction of molasses into the distilleries of that country. Sir G. CLERIC deprecated the introduction of such a motion at that late hour ; lie should oppose the measure. Whilst the barley of this country was taxed so heavily, such a step could net be taken without the greatest injustice. Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS supported the measure. Mr. FRANKLAND LEWIS could see no valid objec tion to the appointment of the committee; but he called upon the noble lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), to state what were the intentions of his Majesty's ministers in respect to the West India proprietors, by introducing the present measure. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the proposition of the hon. gent. was an extraordinary one to be brought forward at the ',resent moment. He was certain that, if the measure was considered to be injurious to the Wort India proprietors it would not have been brought for. ward _ _ _ After some remarks from Mr. BENNETT, Mr. CQaTEi•, Eir R. HARTY, &C. Mr. P. THOMSON replied that all that had passed had shown the correctness of the course he had pursued, in mt entering into details; they were fit matters for the Corn. mittee. Tice motion w•u agreed to, and the Committee afterwards pointed. REFORM 'ILL (IRELAND). Mr. STANLEY moved for leave to bring in the Reform Bill for Ireland, to meet the understanding that the Scotch and Irish Bills should, before the English Bill was discus. sed, be before the house. Some alterations bad taken place. The machinery regarding registration was not to be similar to that of England ; that found in Ireland would be applied. The term of years which was to give the right of voting se be altered from twenty-one to nineteen years; if rent and fine were 801. that should be deemed equal to a rent of SOL It was a still further extension of the elective franchise. The piineiple of the Bill was not altered. Mr. O'CONNELL world not allow this stage to pass without protesting against the contrast between Ireland ant Mand, as made by this bill. otion agreed to, after some explanatory remarks from Mr. SHELL.—The bill was afterwards brought in ; to be read a second time on Monday sennight.: Lord ALTHORP obtained leave to renew his game law bill Mr. STANLEY moved, in a committee, • " grant" of 50,000 L for the relief of Ireland. Withdrawn, after Dlr. HOME complained of this tax, or grant, having been pro. posed without notice. Exchequer Bills to the amount of 500,0001. were voted to be advanced by way of loan for public works in Ireland. The remaining orders of the day having been disposed of, the House adjoutned at a Quarter-put Three o'Clock. PRIVATE CORRESPONDENCE. TO THE EDITOR OF THE STAR. PARIS, Jaya 29. Si n,--I have little to add to the communication I made to you yesterday. The minds of the Parisians are still in a feverish state respecting the questions which are at present agitating, and the uncertainty which still prevails upon the grand question of peace or war. This excitement gives rise to the most absurd rumours which are set afloat by the speculators on 'Change, in order to act upon the funds in a way to insure profit. Yes terday we had reports of the positive refusal of Prince Leopold—that hostilities would be com menced immediately—that Marshal Soult had re turned to Paris, and was to be made President of the Council, in consequence of the resignation of M. Casimir Perier. All these rumours bad the desired effect. A fall of two francs took place, and realised some profit to two speculators, who had sold largely for account. It is not, however, improbable, that the present political situation might have something to do with such a marked decline. 1 he movement was considered sufficiently serious for the Messager to publish a second edition with the following no tice : " Assurances, of which it is impossible to doubt the authenticity, enable us to affirm that the reports spread on 'Change this day, have no foundation whatever. Every thing, on the contrary, proves that the relations of good friendship with the foreign powers have experienced no interruption ; and the resignation of the Presi dent of the Council is no more true, than the pre tended misunderstanding which has taken place between some other Members of the Cabinet." This announcement of the Ministerial Journal, however, has not tended much to calm the restless spirit which exists. All think that some thing is hatching, and look forward with great anxiety to the return of the King to Paris. I know from the best authority that war is now deemed inevitable—even in the Ca binet of the Minister for Foreign Affairs ; and once the spark is lighted, Heaven knows where er how it will be extinguished ! The feeling in the army towards Belgium s such, that in case her territory is invaded, the sol- diers have sworn to take the initiative into their own bands, and march to her relief. The month of July, 1831, will be like the month of July. 1830—a busy and eventful month for France. On the 14th it is confidently stated that the tree of liberty will be raised on the site of the Bastille; and that it will be simultaneously raised through out France, at the anniversary of the revolution. The caricatures, even, begin to have some pungency in them, which did not appear till very recently. There was one, a few days ago, with which the Attorney-General interfered, representing Louts PHILIPP!, as the cup-and-ball, slight-of-hand conjuror. causing liberty to disappear with a little powder of non-intervention ! Now, he is e hibited as the hero of a tragedy, which has lately been played in Paris ; wherein, in the last scene, the hero stabs the heroine, exclaiming—" She resisted lhi tl it tl ci e. al to el i d t i ni fi al tc 84 [ le I I su d • 2 A ti I. Is 8 t h IT 0 1 It al e I 0 R II f 01 Ir. o. 11 ti Ed s an 1 he ng nd ad es :et to a- of of of A ne For he to :at fer 10- tO tat ire on 10d :ed lii- re- ace :al, the De- ith ing rity Cr aad I li Bel- me 01 sly. tree lie gt" ioo. ncy lb% the u is and ittle eN- tely the awl ■