Star. — London, England, 1821-03-13 00:00:00

~. • • - taken into contideration by the Government, and that Parliament would adopt some new regulations with respect to country banks ; such as would, in ' fliture,o guard against thate unhappy failures that had taken place. When their Lordships considered the great extent of the country—when they consi dered what an evil it would be for such towns as Li verpool and Bristol to be without that power and se -entity which should belong to every banking con cern, they must perceive that a great check would be given to useful industry, and that a great dea) of false capital would be created. He hyped, therefore, that arrangements might be made for carrying the principle alluded to by the Noble Marquis into effect. The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, he was very glad to find that the Noble Earl concurred in opi nion with him on this subject. Considerable efforts, he said, had been made to induce the National Bank in Dublin, to establish a new Bank in the south of Ireland, for the relief of the people in that part of the island. ' But they declined doing so, from an opinion that it would not be in their power to work a new machine of that kind. • The Earl of LIMERICK said, that he felt him self under many obligations to the Noble Marquis, for bringing this important question forward in the manner he did, and also .to the Noble Earl for the promise of relief he had just held out to the country. The Earl of DARNLEY said, he was happy to' bear the promise that had been held out of paying some attention to the state of Ireland, so far as re garded the banking concerns; but there were many other causes of the distresses which pressed so heavily .on Ireland. In consequence of misgovernment, the ariculturaldistresses were much greater there than they were in England. There had also been a great falling off in the Revenue, which was collected at an enormous expense. He was informed, that a parti cular branch of the Revenue, the collection of which in England amounted to ten per cent. could not be collected in Ireland under an expense of '2O per cent. The Earl of I3LESINTON wished to know how much of the sum that had been voted three or four years ago for relieving the industrious poor of Ire land by small loans still remained in the hands of Government ? • The Earl of LIVERPOOL could not then exactly state the amount; but if the Noble Lord moved for it, he (Lord Liverpool) would have no objection to produce the exact sum. The Order of the Day was then discharged, and the House adjourned at Six o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The &num. took the Chair before four o'clock. • A person from the *Ste of the Secretary of State for Ire land, brought up Returns of the amount of Itish Stamp Duties lex the last year, which were laid upon the table. A person from the Chamberlain's office of London brought up the Monthly Returns of Payments from the office on account of the Orphans' Fund.—Laid on the table, and to be printed. Mr. Sheriff WAITHUAN presented a Petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldernsen, and Commons of London, in Common Council assembled, against the repeal of the 22d Charles 11. which restricts buildings on the wharfs between the Temple and London Bridge. Petitioners prayed to be heard, by Counsel, against the BilL—Laid on the table. Mr. Alderman BRIDGES presented a Petition from the In habitants' of Bridge Ward, praying to he beard, by Counsel, against the Thames Wharf Bill, which was laid on the table. Dr. DODSON presented a Petition from 450 Occupiers of Land, near Arundel, in Susses, on the subject of Agricultural Distresh—thid on the table. Mr. BUTTERWORTH presented a Petition from the Cold wainers of the town of Dover, against the contrahond importa tion of french boots and shoes. After some words from Mr. B. WI LB RA II A the Peti tion Was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. A Message from the Lords requested that James Drummond, Esq. Might be p4tmitted to attend their Lordships' Committee oa Foreign Trade as a witness. The Lords Messengers were informed that the House bad complied with the request of their Lordships. Dlr. J. P. GRA NT moved for lletto ns of all Fir and Balk Timber imported into Scotland from Norway, from the year I'i99 to ISX.—Ordered. GRAM POUND. Dr. LUSIIINGTON presented a Petition from certain In habitants of London, Westminster, and Southwark, expressing their satisfaction that Grampound had been disfranchised, and -that the rep►esentation had been tratulerred to Leeds% and praying that a inure extensive suffrage might he allowed than that provided by a qualification of £.43 a-year.—Ordered A lie os the table. SCOTCH BURGHS. Lord A. HAMILTON presented a Petition from the Burgh of Inverery, in Aberdeenshire, to which he invited the attention of the House. The Petition was signed by almost every Burgess in the place, and the Petitioners complained of the grossest malversa- Cons and fraudulent rnisapplkations of their funds by . their officers. Though these abuses were as open and undisguised as day, yet they had no Court to ap peal to—there was no law in existence from which they could hope redress. They prayed the House to take these matters into their consideration. The No ble Lord then stated, that in 1817, the Burgesses being ready to prove in a Court of Justice the actual embezzlement of a number of specific sums against cert. Lin" of their officers, brought an actiun against thrj:s nfficers in die Court of Session. The case was there long argued; but at length the Judges of that Conrt declared, that though they saw thelsurgesses had the strongest possible ease against their officers, yet, as the matter did not come within the jurisdic tion of tlx Court, they (the Judges) could not inter fere. this had been made a plea previously by the Magistrates. But not only did the Burgesses fail in their action, but they were also obli g ed t o p ay £lO5 ours. The Noble Lord added, that the Petitioners came before the House with the strongest possible claims; for they had detected abuses in their officers , were ready and able to substantiate the existence of these abuses, but yet they could find no remedy in ajy existing law. He hoped the House would con sider these liardthips, and concluded by moving that.! the Petition be laid upon tie table. • 11U311: Wing requested to support the Peti -1101;, would, after the statement of the !Table Lord, content himself with obsei wing, that it was most. re spectably signed, and signed by every nun in the Borough, except the Magistrates, against whom the complaint was made. Sir GEORGE CLERK recommended referring tt . ctition to the Committee that was sitting iai-j I My on this subject, rather than suffering it to, lie on the table. Mr. AI3EItCROAIBIE was against this course, be cause, in that event, tee Petition would not then be printed, and the House would not be in possession of • the material facts disclosed in ' *Lord A. HAMILTON said, that he would follow a course which would answer both encis, fot he would first more that it be printed, and then refer it to the Committee.—The Petition was then laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. ADMIRALTY COURTS IN SCOTLAND. The LORD ADVOCATE brought in a Bill to re gulate the. Courts of Admiralty in Scotland. On the question being gut fur its being read a first time, Lord A. HAMILTON recommended a distant day for the second reading; and also, that in the mean time the blanik;:should be filled up, and the Bill sent to Scotland. • The Bill was then read a first time, and the second reading fixed for this day fortnight. SCOTCH BURGHS COMMITTEE. Sir It. FERGUSON said, he should request of the House to be excused from attending as a Mem ber on the Committee for inquiring into the abuses alleged to exist in certain Burghs in Scotland. He was impelled to this, not from any-want of respect for the majority of that Committee, bet because he thought that no good could result from the mode of proceeding they had adopted. He differed with them , entirely in his opinions and sentiments upon the ques tion; and he could not be induced to participate in v their labours, when he knew that the numerous Pe titioners would be completely disappointed in their hopes of a remedy. He should therefore move that' his name be withdrawn from the list of Members ap-. pointed to attend the Committee. Mr. MACKENZIE regretted that the gallant Ge neral had come to this determination. Ile wished] the gallant General to remain a Member ofthe Com mittee, and to assist its labours by his suggestions. ' The motion was agreed to. PETITION FROM KIRAALDT, IN SCOTLAND. Sir It. FERGUSON said he had to present a Pe-• tition to the House from the Borough of kirkaldy,; in Scotland, complaining of the oppressive weight of Taxation, which, the Petitioners alleged, was still as, heavy as ever, though Ministers had made so many', promises of economy, reduction, and retrenchment. fhe Petitioners also expressed their dissatisfaction a: the measures pursued against the Queen; and stated,) that they felt hurt by an Address which had been got up in the neighbourhood, and which purported to ' speak the sentinients of all the loyal part of the inha bitants; whereas it - had been set on foot by sixteen or seventeen persons who held places under the Crown, and out of a population of 18,000 or 19,000 persons, had not received more than nine signatures! The Petition which he held in his band had been signed by 500 persons in a very short time. The Pe tition prayed for retrenchment generally, and fnr the restoration of the Queen to all her rights, as the best mode of tranquillizing the public mind.—He had also been entrusted with another Petition from an adjein ing Parish; and this stated, that the Ministers had entirely lost the confidence of the Nation, and that nothing short of their removal, and a complete Re form in Parliament, could bring about that tranquil. lity which was so much desired. Both Petitionshad 1;108 names affixed to them, and the language was decorous and respectful to the Houk. Captain WEMYSS contended that the parties who had signed the Loyal Address alluded to.were highly respectable. Sir R. FERGUSON did not mean to deny that they were respectable; but he would say that the persons who had signed the Petitions now before the House were quite as respectable, if not more so. Both Petitipns were laid on the table, and ordered to be printed.. ILCIIESTER JAIL. Mr. Alderman WOOD having moved for certain Parish Accounts of a person named Hill, in order to ascertain how great his deficiency was, took that op portunity of replying to the insinuations thrown our against him, on Friday night, by the Hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. A. Baring).—namely, that be had taken the Jailor's Report in speaking of the state of Ilchester jail. The worthy Alderman explained the cause of his going to visit the jail, which was, that the City of London having then an intention of build ing several jails, he, with Mr. Alderman Goodbehere, Sir John Perring, and an eminent Architect, Mr. Dance, were sent as a Deputation to inspect se veral jails, and amongst others they visited the jails of Gloucester and Ilchester. It was said, that whilst they were at dinner they had received the Report, but he had only this morning found the identical biil of what it cost the party for a lunch at Ilchester ; and the House would perhaps wonder that for a party in which there were five persons, And three of these London Aldermen, together with two servants, the whole expense was twenty-fire s hill ing s !—(Lnoglgter). He wished the Hon. Member had been himself pre sent, in order that he might convince him by shewing him the bill of the expenses. The worthy Alderman concluded by reading a letter from Sir John l'erriug, in corroboration of what be had been stating, and confirming his assertion that they remained two hours inspecting Ilchester jaiL - Mr. F. BUXTON' was sorry the worthy Alderman had not waited until the Hon. Member for Taunton was in his place, who might then be enabled to reply to him. For his (Mr. Buxton's) part, notwithstanding the assertion of the worthy Alderman, he could hardly believe that three Aldermen, with their et cetera:, could lunch for twenty-five shillings at Ilchester!—(Laughter). ' Mr. Alderman WOOD.—" I have the bill in any hand." The SPEAKER interrupted the worthy Alderman, and informed him that this discussion was irregular, as' he did not mean to follow it up by any motion, and as it had no reference to the motion he had just made.—The question was then put on his motion, and agreed to. ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS. Mr. HUSKISSON presented a Petition from the Clergy of the Archdeacorry of Chichester against any further concession to Roman Catholic s . •Know ing the respectability of many of the Petitioners, and feeling a respect for them all, he was sorry that he could not agree in the prayer of the Petitioners. The Petitioners did not, however, impugn the loyalty of the Roman Catholics, but only stated that tilty feared any further concessions would endanger our best Es tablishments in Church - and State. He (Mr. Huskis son) was convinced such fears were very visionary, and it was from such conviction that he had uni formly given the Roman Catholics his support.— The Petition was then laid on the table, and 7.:ered to be printed. Mr. BUTTERWORTH presented a Petition from the Rector, ChnrchwarJens, and Inhabitants of :the Parish of St. Dunstan in the West, on the same sub ject. The Hon. Meniber 'added,. that -he entirely concurred in the player of the Petitioners.—Laid on the table. Mr. J. A. WARRE expressed his regret at the views which the Petitioners had taken (f this great question. Instead of treating it on the broad basis of its own merits at the present moment, they had recourse to exploded doctrines and obsolete opinions. He did not rise, however, to oppose the Petition. After some words from Mr. BUTTERWORTH in re ply, in which he defended the language of the Peti tion, it was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. Mr. G. LANE PDX presented a Petition from the Corporation of Beverley, in Yorkshire, against the, Roman Catholic Claims. Mr. LAMBTON did not rise to .oppese.the Peti tion, but simply to state the circumstances under' which it was got up. It by no means'spoke the sen timents of the People of 'Beverley,. for the fact was, there were but twelve persons present at the Meeting where this Petition was prepared, and eight of these were Aldermen ; the other four either chamber-men or chamber- women! —(Laughter). . Mr. FOX said a few words in explanation, after which the Petition was laid upon the table. Sir WILLIAM SCOTT presented a similar Peti tion from the University of Oxford.—Laid oa the' table, and ordered to be printed. IMITATiON C(*FEE. Sir R. WILSON wished to ask the Right lion. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if it was his inten tion to erforce the penalties against certain indivi-, duals for selling what was mimed imitation coffee? Ile had understood that the Hon. Gentleman had no objection to the repeal of the 4th of Geo. 111. which went to sanction the penalties in question:— Under that impression he (Sir It. Wilson) informed the parties of the fact, and hoped that, by doing so, he had net led them into an error. The CHANULLOIL of the EXCHEQUER was not prepared to give the gallant General any direct answer on the subject ; and he did mot think it con sistent for the gallant General to .have held oat to the parties any expectation that the penalties vroold not be enforced. Sir R. WILSON said he was not conscious of sub jecting himself to the animadver,ion of the Right Hon.Gentlem an, in stating that no prosecutions would in future take place. MILITARY EXPENDITURE. Mr. HUME said, he had k Resolution to submit, the object of which was, not to pledge the House to any immediate deduction, hut to sanction the prin ciple of progressive economy. The lion. Member then moved the following Resolutions, which were seconded by Mt. CRFEVEY: " 1. Resolved, That it appears by the Official Returns be fore this House, that the total Military Establishment of Great Britain and Ireland fur 1792 (exclusive of the East Indies, and of the Artillery, Militia, and Marines), consisted of 48,474 men— namely, 15,919 fix Great Britain, Guernsey, &c. 17,323 in the Colonies abroad, and 15,232 in Ireland; and that the total Mi litary Establishment of Great Britain and Ireland, for 1821 (ex clusive of the East Indies, the Artillery, the Militia, and Ma-1 rines), consists of 11,11,4 Officers and men; namely. 27,152 in Great Britain, Guernsey, &c. of 32,476 in the Colonies abroad, i and of 20,778 in Ireland. [The Sd, .7d, and 4th Resolutions, appeared in the Sews of Saturday]. Lord CA STLEILEAG H thought the proper course would be for the House now to go into a Committee. Before the House laid down a general principle, he conceived his Noble Fiend should be allowed to state in detail his Estimate for the year, and his rea-' son in support of it. It would be open to any Gen tleman, in the Committee, to pr opose reduction, and on the report coming up, the general principle might' be debated. Mr. HUME saw no objection to the course he pro- ‘ posed, which would be no more than the giving an. 'instruction to the Committee, or declaring the opi nion of the llon-se as a guide for the Committee. He -should therefore persist in putting his Resolution. I The Resolution, declaring die present force to ex ceed that of 1792, by nearly 137,000 men, and set ting forth the, increased expense, was then put. Lord PALMF.RSTQN did not intend now to go into a detailed answer; e lion. Gentleman's Resta-, lution, asbetonsidertig h propr4 time for discussing' the question of reductions would be in the Committee. He only now desired to point out to the Honourable Gentleman, that his statement of the force of 1792, was incorrect ; as in the statement of the numbers of Militia, he had omitted 19,CW men; as also in; his statement of our present force, he had greatly over-rated the number. Ile was not now answering any arguments of the Honourable Gentleman, but calling on the House not to sanction inaccurate state mints of historical events. lle did not intend to im pute blame to the Honourable Gentleman, but he would merely remind him ; that a little learning was a dangerous thing! Before the Honourable Gentle-, man called on the House to adopt him as their leader, he shOuld drink deeper, and make himself better an-, quainted with the subject. But he understood there had been for some time past a self-constituted . Fi nance Committee, sitting on these Estimates, of which the Honourable Member was Chairman; and, as the motions were put into hit hand by that Cons.l mittee, he submitted them to the House. He was inclined to move for a Betu - rn of the Salaries which this Committee paid to its Clerks-L—(Alam, move! from the Opposition).—He might, perhaps, move at some future opportunity ; at present he would move, not for a Return of Salaries, but the previous question. Mr. HUME contended, that his statement of num bers was correct. As to his (Mr. Hume's) establish ment of Clerks, hir wished to GOD the Noble Lord conducted his business with as much economy as he did his, and the Noble Lord's Office would not cost the Country £60,000 a year. He wished for no great or rapid reduction; he felt it was not prac ticable; but he thought, in justice to the Country, the House ought to pledge itself to exert all pos sible economy.—The House then divided. For the motion .. - - Against - ?lizjority against for trution - . —24 • COMMITTEE ON TILE ARMY ESTIMATES. Lord PALMERSTON said, he did not intend to enter into these E,timates at great length. The ob ject of them was to produce reduction ; and that would he principally found in. the Veteran Corps, to the amount of 9,C(X) men, on account of the tran quillity in India.. This would be a saving of about £115,000. Other reductions in tb.c. Staff, and in * land, the Public Departments, and the s e . amounted in the whole to 1:367;e0 0. Ne e diminutions in the Army p a y o f G enera . 06,7 Foreign Half:pay, the In-pensioner; a n d a sioners of Chelsea and Kilmaielmr. ; i s t i be i ku „l" l ' Pensions, the Military Asylum, Ike. a tair 'il s __ the Finance Committee of 1817 , the E.ai rn .,..7`g above 12,8,000,000, exclusive of the missariat, kc. while the Estimates wei r - : c • those of 1817, by C 266,000. Thus dap 11 - Qua , have done wrong in adopting • the r ntemt Member for Abingdon (Mr. Nlaberl Estimates of this year to those of ' now lay before the louse the Esti sent year. They were as follow: Ordinaries - - - Cxtraordinat ics - Commissariat - Barrack - - - • 'Training Militia - Being leis than the Estimateof mince of 1817, by 1:266,000. ' nourabk Member would see thai not agreed to his proposition the because it placed that confidence which had been fully justified comparison to the different sums vice of the last year, the savings Upon the Ordinaries - - £144,4 o • Retraortlinaries - - Mow Commissariat - - 7 4400 Barracks - - - •112 4 00. 'Training - 40,84 Fnr (lathing Irish Yeomanry - t o p e Forming the Veteran Rataliwis a oiee , He was r t eady to admit that the last two iterai It o not actual reductions, although the , diminutions of expense. The whole . compared with the Army Estimates amounted to 4:707,000. lie did not saving would be satisfactory to a ll para. inky on such subjects could not be expected ; trusted the House would wet:rat Mini. • everything to procure reduction. Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume) confine the expense to the Estimates they must look to the difference of of our situation then and now. 11 "e to keep from dilapidation, more stores more Colonies to *meet. Iu M, Islands, the Cape of Good !lope, Ceylon, and the new Leeward Islam of men was 15,000. When lie had lonies, he had mentioned the mot vale possessions, in commercial and other •These garrisons were net proportioned them in the event of a war breaking out. above 3,200 men more far the old .- 1792; but since that time the Colony Wales had greatly increased ; there wal at Van Diemin's Land, and we had frOntier in. Canada. We had 8000 and the British Islands more than in _ we had new stations in lieligolandaad The only mode'of sending reliefs on r was tosend out whole regiments, for: could be transferred from one regiment without his consent, so that Great 1 have more non-effectives than the Colonies. would say that a regiment should more thin ten years, and, therefore, have a disposable force above that of then. It was, therefore, as small as it , agreed that regimental establishments economical as possible; and those of prevailed, were more economical than which amounted to 400 men only. war broke out, the regiments were , broken up, and therefore they became emus mass by blending them together then combined economy in peace with rendering our army efficientan case it would be a saving above the .000,000. The Life Guards were . amount compared with the other Cavalry It was a mistake that the foreek thr than now ; for in 1792 he believed it two regiments of Life Guards, and ments of Foot Guards. The total arm year wouldbe 1:8,792,(XX) including N' and Pensions, &c. but the charge for would be but 1:5,776,0W instead of talked of by the Hon. Member ,(Mr. (Lord Palmerston) wondered how lw had soldiers' pay was not too great, considerb they were obliged to purchase out he rather ungracious to reduce that they had so heroically fought for •The Noble Lord was then proceelh the statement made by the Hon. diem respecting, the Staff of 1802, was erri he supposed, taken from the succeedi Mr. HUME said, " Thef are the cember, 1802." Lord PALMERSTON.—" Then ber has attended his parliamentary di purpose, not to know that the Estimai cember, 1802, are intended for the St Mr. HUME observed, that all 1w lative to that period had been taken Estimates, and awlied to the same year. Lord PALMERSTON.—" That only are all wrong"—(Alaugh).—No man we should only keep up such a mi Staff as in 1792. We must have an in case of a war actually breaking me reductions had taken place in the ments, to the amount of 1:80,000 nearl business was done with much greater formerly. lie arrogated nothing to on that score; but that arose from their , . to it by the House—(Cheer.l).—Gent ' cheer—Weers)—but it arose front M , down with volumes of motions for at the Government was forced to furnish ble manner—(Hear)—and yet,the lion. Gentlemen wished to tit the same number of clerks as in 179 - In list year, £llO,OOO had been rec°r• ed Public by the exertions of the W I t?' , more than eovered the expense of agree to the strange proposition of t! man (Mr. Hume), that a person unjustl: money for five, ten, or fifteen years, called on to refund it. Neither cattle' the pensions:of those who had spent and blood, and exhausted their (acid" vita of their country, should be w a a an A:6 rio lVp Wt) fur cat tht fat tu At ha ref sal, Im am tif 'elk?) to coth e f 1817, lie stimates fo r th e 426 A3N1 -1,020. p ct -501, 56 g 237,5 0 , 9 4406 F the Finance Therefore, ti e at if the hea rt other Ili* i ei in the Go nna .. by the re es q s voted for .th e et , were AS E l ll nj i imi o :ti t al : ate i d e .ii.eiei s s:it a a lishez in teamo g sl6lststilvil tbi ;;ree:l: 7 ,64ll44.b. . . 411: 1 1 they 'pert in i.. ad ted timates 4 last ? t id not know t, d.. i in. The Po . I .. ume) had wished ' a e stores to . _ t i Malta, the , • 1 lope, liauritie s , ad , k Islands, th e arum i II ma valuableof AIN n other point s ti t Tim, ti portioned to Fete • 1 ing out. Th ere ~ it -old Colonies this i 1 " :olony of New Soil ta ere was a nea Colt d had alsoexteaded at 1 000 me* is : •. • 1 in in 1792 ; b at h e , an tad :lad oth er tikes II is oil foreign Ma di ST for now no v idi f PA regiment to nether Jr 3reat Britain 'roil ' r he Colonies. Nara at wld be kept ab : to efore,_we Could o /a that of 1794 by ipi sr ll as it could be. le 311 hermits . shoold lie a 11 se of 650, 'hick NI t' il than those 011794 • ' sly. Then, erten •di were obliged to k a • became a heterop t ' ogether. this row to ce with theme:Lai 1 • 0 case of ivar Is the other &I 4 41 to were of a year her Cavalry is 1791 be in that year wale Iri red it consisted d In and the fame of il army pantile . tl .. ling ti Militiaillilp 1.1 ge tor active mitt id of the L 1,000,011, Mr. Herne) which YI/ 7 Ile had cornea. Tie msidering ihe etli4P " 11 at out of it. It anti im that pay now, Cl for their couotty. __- sit :eeding to sop , Member OIL& th I is erroneous, sad,. :c eeding yeas a n 11:6 the Estimates d . 1 of : hen du the il reilr . bit rytyso ti Mates pasted in ams he Supplies of/O. no all his state Meta Na taken from the W 4 me year. for 'hat only prow" ' , . ? n a l g e Th r m a nn a oe ; i i l u i e ffi w t .p t I i t : r r b u c v i i i : Is rc e :: dep 0 . i s 1 1. . i 1 Icft theta2l 0 nearly; boicia,ti a;._ ren ter accurac y.t4 ."` 7, g to the Gover n . :. lit m their beiniPti • ii, --Centlemen fir !Doecit.t7nt,itriithsec:_loghec.otmcighht:°l:;o2l,tmithibnl7,l:64B.o3o:4:ll.. : b il ~ a flnv ; a : uoi d aci war o ffi ce, wh i tn 2 f it: 'lie now° I A l of the lion. lid h a , justly holding . ie l years. s hould oft tul could lie ..1,• 1 ! He spent their bell ref facokies, ia tbe iai reduced—i