Star. — London, England, 1831-07-19 00:00:00

i ; i; • .;/,' U it; 6'4 1 , t. 1 4 . • I' 1 1. 1 M' ; w ~~; .0 as that •.f , iihe to produce ill-blood between a nation and its I religious ilsiructors. Then came the di ffi culty of providing for the church so as to insure to its ministers that they should eever fall below the level, but always keep at least an even race with the other classes of society. He did not think the ersteni of tithe well contrived for the purpose it had in view. Ile did ~i.t think the collection of tithe a good mode of se rutin/ :0 the Clergy the respect and attachment of the so elegy th y wve •tt instruct; but this he knew, that tithes w• such A 1.1 p ion of provision for the Church, that there (void he tor inttesse of the wealth of the parish without Li least onto:pulling increase of that of the Church. — Tie Chu. eh anti the landlord were partners: one-tenth of the prollt,ee of the land was the pro p erty of the former, je.st as math as ,he remaining nine-te nth s were the property of the latter. If it was thought hard by the landlords that the Clergy should step in and take away one-tenth, it was pe7lertly competent for the Clergy to say, " Our tenth ..s *nue% our property its your nine-tenths are yours " It was nue that the Clergy were sleeping partners so far agricoliti-al labour was concerned. But they had other Motes to p-rform to society. for which their property in the ;:i teas the legal stioulated recompence. It would be a gr...t step to take, a mighty infringement of property to say, toot title partner shall oust the other without his consent. Su? se he (the Lord Chancellor) was partner in a firm, his copartners should determine to make a rest and value the property, and, assigning hint his share, say a thousand Pounds. snfiutle him from all participation in the futute profits. it was true his thousand pounds would be secured, but, while the property of his partners went on lOCTOI4- log, his would remain where it was. This was the kind of justice which the bill of the Noble Baron appeared to him to render to the clergy, and this was certainly the main of his objection. It was true that the sum to be allotted to the clergy in lieu of tithe was to vary at intervals of three years, according' to the price of wheat ; it was to go up or down, as wheat became dearer or cheaper, and the clergy would thus be protected from injury arising out ot the fluctuations in the value of money. This mitigated the evil. but it did not r,:move it. It WAS an ad. justment e the arrange pent as regarded the value of money, but no alleviation of the original injustice, for the clergy ought to receive no: only according to the fluctuations in the value of money, but according to the progress of cultivation. To return to his former illustration,it would be no satisfactory compensation to him that his 10001. should be changed into a greateror a smaller sum in proportion tothe changes in thevalue of money, while he saw himself condemned to remain poor, at the same time that his former partners, who had unjustly excluded him from their fellowship. were gradually growing richer and richer. He thought that some arrangement should be made which would exclude the possibility of quarrelling between the lay brethren anti the clergyman ; that the clergy n.an should receive an income ungrudged by the parties bound to give it. The clergy and the landowners should go hand in hand. A clergyman ought to be able to say, " You have nine.tenths, we have one-tenth, and the right to either is the same." He perfectly agreed with the plans proposed in this Rill. Asa friend to his country, as a friend to the Established Church, he hoped that some arrangements might lie arrived at to come between the lay and the ecclesiasti cal interests. He deplored his inability to see the right way to accomplish that arrangement ; but whatever it might he, it ought to be an arrangement which fully provided for the safety of the Established Church, and such arrange ment could not he arrived at without mutual consultations between the Laity and the Clergy. All parties, however, should abide by the strict letter of the compact. He did not see why remit:thing could not be done in England in assimilation to the plan of the Episcopal Church of Scot land. If that plan worked well in Scotland, why not else. where ? In Sc. died there were none but stipendiary Clergy. When clergy men were stipendiary nothing was easier than the cnilect inn of w was due to them. They got their stipend j :et as securely as any other property they might he entitled to. elm as owners of tithes clergymen might lose greatly. It was a p Ipetual commutation of grain ; there was a perpetual rising or falling in the price of grain, and an owner of tt,ites: was quite as much an owner of land. Whatever cioiclusiin might be conic to on ibis important question, he h le_el that it would be discussed with ettlenness ; that one piny would ace stand in the way of the other in their mutual endeavour; to put an end to the differences existing at present L:vetch the clergy and their lay brethren. He would not de tain their Lordships further on this subject, but he felt that he would not have been discharging his duty bad he not said thus much on a subject which claimed his best consideration.' Lord ELI/ON said that an aucuipt to alter the nature of , perty in tithes was as much as an attempt to alter the securities for lay property. He considered them one and the same thing with respect to the right of tenure. lie would vine fur the second. reeding ; but at the same time he thought, when he looked at both bills on the subject of • tithes before the house, it was utterly impossible to say they could both go through the Committee. There were many clauses In the bill of the Must Rev. Prelate which he e'ojected to, but they were of a nature to be corrected in the committee, and lie therefore trusted to be able to give his b.st ceneia. ration amd attention when those clauses would be brought under discussion, and would reserve the expression of l.:s opinions of th ust , clauses till thin. A deal had been said ott the subject of tam*: and much had also been said on the suhject of tithes of lay impropriators. Both should be looked on equally as property in this country. lie wished that an alteration might be made in both so far as regarded the col lecticti of the proceeds of that property. He had rend the bill with great attention, and be must lay that if the bill went to the cointniitee in its present shape, it could not pass. There were several clauses required to be greatly shoed. lie belh , ved that the tithe law was less understood than any otti;r. Material alterations would be required to be made before the passing of the bill; but when he looked at the gt.pit interest the Established Church had in the right ad. justuieht of this question, he would devote his best services to assist their lordships in their endeavours to promote that in erest. The Bi s hop of LONDON thought that his right rev. legend had auopted the only comic which could be adopted tar the adjustment of the 'tithe system. No man would deny that the clergy had as equitable • right to their claims to tithes as the lay-impropriators had to theirs. The rights both were placed upon the same basis, and it formed part of the tenure of land in this country, that the clergy should be entitled to a certain interest in it. If any other arrangement were made for the maintainance of the church est,i,:slinient, on whom would the burden fall but upon thom• briar now pay tithes? These were the persons who would have to pay the Easter offerings and other fees, which would then bast: to be paid in lieu of the mode of pay. ibei.t a hich had tOr so long a period existed. The rights f the ent.re it ought to be maintained, and it was not fair of the noble and leaned lord on the %whack to describe the 0: the cleTy. as those of a sleeping partner. He (the Bishop' of Loi.dou) thought that it would be advisable to introduce into tire measure a power for commuting tithes for lard. This was dune under particular circumstances at ram I.t, and he could consequently perceive no possible 9.1 j.et.ou to the introduction of a clause to that effect. Tithes had, in his judgment, raised the clergymen of the lurch of England to their present eminence in piety and Laming, and he, for one, would be sorry to sec any attempt made to abolish them. For his own part, he shrubd be exceedingly happy ta see some plan for ascertain ing what was, and what was trot thheable, at d preventing the cot:flicting decisions which were tobe found upon the subject. The LORD CHANCELLOR and the Bishop of LON DON mutually explained; and, after a few words from the Arcirbt.hop of C A NTERBURY, t!te bill was read a second tinte, aid ordered to be committed on lihursday. TIIINCE LEMM:iII INCOME. Earl GB ET alluded to a question which had been put to Lim on a former evenirg, with respect to the income of Prince Leopold. flat income, the noble lord observed, a as settled upon I is Royal Highness by the usual means, et.ll his Rojal Highness had as much right to it as any of their It ra.liti.s had to hie it . come derived to him by marri age. When the question alludtd to v as put, he (Earl Grey) h:4l in his possession a Inter from Prince Leopold on the sunject ; but atoning that lettsr a private communication, lie did not wish then to disclose it ; but he was now at li lorty to State, that it a a s not the intention of hi s R o y a l Nigbras to drew one farthi g of his income from this ceuntry. The noble lord then read the following letter: Marlborough-house, July 15. " My di ar Lord Grey: Befoie I quit the country, I ant desirous to state, in waiting, the intentions and views which I had the pl..sure of communicating to you verbally this morning, on the subject of my British annuity. " As Sovereign of Belgium, it is not my intention to draw from this country any portion of the income which was settled upon me by Act of Parliament at the period of my marriage. Your Lordship is, however, well aware, tha t up to the very moment of my leaving England I have main tained my establishments here upon their accustomed foot ing, and that, consequently, there remain to be fulfilled and discharged pecuniary engagements and outstanding debts, to an amount which it is quite impossible for me to state at the present time with mecision. As soon, therefore, as I shall have accomplished the payment of these demands, it is my Intention to make over, into the hands of trustees* whom I will without loss of time appoint, the whole of the annuity which I receive from this country, in trust for the following purposes : " I shall - -olre • tru.tess maintain, in a state of _ requi my ,to complete habitation and of repair, the house, gardens, and park, at Claremont ; and farther, to pay all the salaries, pensions, and allowances, which I shall deem a proper re ward to those persons who have claims upon me for their faithful services during my residence in this country. I shall, in addition, require them to continue all those cha rities and annual donations to charitable institutions, which have been allowed or subscribed to, either by the Princess Charlotte or by myself, up to the present period, " All these objects having been fulfilled, it is my wish and desire that the remainder shall be repaid into the Btitie► Exchequer. I remain, my dear, Lord Grey, most faith. fully your's, (Signed) " LZOPOLD." The noble Lord added, that it was also the intention of Isis Royal Highness to resign the commission which he held us Colonel of the sth Dragoon Guards, and that he would have serrendered his e rnmission into the hands of Lord Iltil prior to his quitting this country, bad not some unex pected circumstance interfered. The noble Lord concluded by reading a letter which he bad received from Colonel Cust upon the subject of his Royal Highness's intention, and which was to the alert effect. The Duke of IVELLINOTON congratulated the house upon the determination to which his Royal Highness had come. His Royal Highness held his income by the same right whick any of their Lordships held his, namely. by the laws of the country ; but still he (the Duke of Wellington) notwithstanding the misconstruction which the press had put upon what had fallen from him, sincerely rejoiced that bin Royal Highness had come to a right conclusion and deter. mined to show the people over which he was about to rule, that he would be independent of this country. • Here the conversation dropped. COKMUTATION or TITAZI._ Lord DA CHB then rose to move the second reading of the bill which he introduced for efibeting a commutation of tithes ; but, as his lordship spoke in • low tone, and with his back to the bar, very little that fell from him was beard below it. He was understood to state, that his connection with agriculture had naturally drawd his attention to this subject ; and that he was anxious to devise some remedy for the admitted evils of the tithe system. In stating theobjects of his bill, he felt he must throw himself on the indulgence of their lordships, as be found himself anticipated on many points, and had already been replied to by one of the most powerful and learned persons in the house. If he (Lord D.) conceived that the bill introduced by the most reverend prelate would be at all operative, he would give it his earnest support, but in the present state of agriculture he did not contemplate that the powers given by the Most Bev. Pre late's bill would induce the occupiers of land to apply capital to permanent improvements. The application of capital to agriculture could only be produced by a per manent provision relative to tithes ; and the only yerma rent provision was a commutation for a fair and full equivalent. He concurred with those who thought that the right to tithes was as full and sacred, and in com plete, as the right which their lordships had to their es. tates ; but the collection of this property led to such inconvenience, and impeded the application of capital to agricultural improvement so much, as to justify their lordships in enquiring whether they ought ist.t to end and apply some substitute for this species of property, by giving the proprietors a full equivalent for the property de stroyed and extinguished. The great evil of the dthe system was, that tithes increased in proportion to the cost and ex penses of cultivating the land. In early periods, when there was only a species of rude cultivation, the tithe produced little more than the tenth of the actual value of the land; but as the expenses of cultivation increased, the value of the tithes increased in proportion. The result was mama. rily the suspension of the application of capital to agricul tural improvements to a most injurious extent. The COM mutation of tithes by land had often been tried in en closure and allotment bills. There were many objectio n s, however, to a commutation in land on any large scale. It would be difficult to prevent dilapidation, and there was an objection to placing so much land in ntortmain in the coon. try. There were many cases In which corn rents were tried as a commutation for tithes, and the experiment bad worked beneficially. In those cases he had never heard any imputa tion or suspicion of fraud, and he had therefore adopted the principle. The principle was, that a rent should be paid to the tithe-owner, vibrating with the price of corn. It was for the interest of agriculture, and more especially for the interest of the established church, that the tithe-owner's interest, as arising front the application of extraneous capital to land, should cease ; and that no one was less In. dined to propose any thing injurious to the church than he was. (Hear.) He considered, however, that a measure like that which he proposed would, give security to all pro. perty. and to Church property in particular. His great ob. ject was to let capital loose, and, by giving the tithe-owner a rent-charge on the land, vibrating with the price of wheat, be would receive a full equivalent for his property, and an end would be put to litigation. The noble lord then pro ceeded to explain the details of the measure, in some of which he stated, that he would be willing to make changes to meet the objections which had been made. In conclu sion, the noble lord observed that he would be happy to I accept the Composition Bill of the most rev. prelate if he thought it would be effectual, but he was satisfied that a measure of commutation would give security to the property of the landholder, and strength to the Church Establishment, whilst it would relieve the people. The noble lord then moved the second reading of the bill. Lord WYNFORD thought that, to enable the House to adjust the rights of the tithe owner and the tithe payer, they should have the questions of composition and commutation before them. The rights of the landowner and those of the titheowner ought to be contrasted, in order to enable the House to come to a proper selection upon the question. t When once that species of composition was established, thete wouid be no difficulty in making arrangements, ' whereby the titheowners would be secure. He was per. I suaded that the landowners of this country were most ge nerous, and would willingly make sacrifices to effect such' arrangement. He was also persuaded that any other com mutation except lands, would be detrimental to the interests of the clergy. Dr. Payley and Dr. Smith recommended a commutation similar in principle to that which the present bill proposed. lie had objections to Commutation Bills in general, but lie was decidedly hostile to the bill before the house, for it went to take away part of the property of the church,witbout giving any equivalent for it, though as his ncble and learned friend on he woolsack had expressed to night, that property was as sacred as any other property.— If a bill of this kind was to be compulsory on one side, it should be also compulsory on the other. If the parishioners had a right to call on the clergyman to take a certain com mutation, the clergyman should have an equal right to coin , pet the parishioners au the other hand to give a certain com mutation, otherwise it could not be considered an equitable adjustment. There was another ground on which he ob. jected to this bill, namely that Quakers and Dissenters would, in some places, have the appointment of the umpir:. Yet there was no appeal from the decision of such umpire, for it was to be decisive. He submitted that this bill was a direct attack on the church, and consequently he would op. pose It. The noble and learned lord concluded by moving that it be read a second time that day six months. The Earl of CARNARVON could not admit that a commutation of land alone was the only proper one. If such a system of commutation as this bill prorosed were adopted, many of the clergy would be in a inic:rable altos den. Feeling as he did considerable difficulty in voting against commutation, be could not but wish that this mea sure was not pressed now. He did not think there would be sufficient time to give such a measure due consideration, if an important measure, now in the other house, was to be pressed on them in all its details, before an adjournment took place. The Arbishop of CANTERBURY rose to request the noble lord (Dam) to withdraw his motion. It would be impossible for him to vote in favour of the bill, and it would give him pleasure not to be called upon to give it a direct negative. Earl GREY also recommended the Noble Lord not to proceed with the present bill until the bill of the Rev. Pre late should have been disposed of. He only recommended that he should withdraw, not abandon it. He (Earl Grey) confessed himself friendly to the measure of the Reverend Prelate, and he thought the details of the bill well oleo. lated to carry the principle of it into beneficial effect. He • • thought the bill was likely, by "means of composition and c ommutation, to remove the differences which so frequently arose between parishioners and their pastors." If those dill:resets could be reMoved for ever, in the words quoted by the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, it was " a consummation devoutly to be 'Meth" but every Noble Lord who had turned his attention te the subject must be aware that these dialculdes wars of tao great magnitude to be surmounted by a angle meastule. (Hear, bear.) The bill, how ever, by enlarging the time allowed for composition of tithes, and by giving security for their being paid, would in some measure remedy the nil. On those grounds be agreed with the Noble Earl (Centavos) that it would be advisable for the Noble Lord to abstain from proceeding with the present Bill, in order that the Bill of the Rev. Prelate might be fur thered with the least delay possible, particularly as that Bill would be a step towards the attainment of his own object. Ile hoped that the Bill of the Rev. Prelate, emanating as it did from the Church, would put an end to those unjust re flections on the Church, as if its members were ever unwil ling to make any sacrifices for the good of the community. He hoped the Noble Lord would withdraw his motion, even with a view to its ultimate success ; but if he persever ed, he (Earl Grey) should feel compelled to vote for the postpone ment. On the motion of Viscount MELBOURNE, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland bill was read a third time, and passed. The House adjourned at Nine o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Sir R. VYVYAN, Mr. J. BROUGHAM, and two other Members, took the oaths and their seats. Lord KI LLEEN moved that a new writ should issue for the county of Meath, in the room of Sir M. Somerville, de ceased.—Ordered- Lord BELG RAVE brought up the report of the Mon mouth election committee, which declared that B. Hall, Esq. bad not been duly elected, but that the Marquis of Worcester had, and ought to have been returned to serve in Parliament. - ---___ Lord AIORPETII presented apctition from certain per sons Interested in the Leeds and Manchester railway, com plaining that tneinbers of the committee upon the bill in question voted in the committee, without knowing the facts of the cue, The noble lord supported the statement of the petitioners, and said that this was a practice that ought to be done away with, as it tended to lessen the respect which the peeple ought to entertain for Parliament. The petitioners prayed for • re.commitment of the bill, or that a committee of appeal might be appointed to consider the vote of the committee on the bill. .. Mr. C. WI NNE deprecated further discussion on this subject at present, and suggested that the petition be brought up and printed, and that notice for a future day should be given, when the merits of the case might be entered into. Mr. LITTLETON agreed with the suggestion thrown out by his right honourable friend. Lord MOB BETH assented to the suggestion thrown out. and moved that the discussion should be renewed on Wed nesday night ; and in reply to an hon. member, sa:d that the opposers of 6ts 4 bill had no intention of bringing the subject on again this session. =Mr. 0. BANKES gave notice, that to-mcorow he would present a petition from Great Beduin, relative to the Re. form Bill ; and also, that he would move that the Bo rough of Great Bcdwin be removed from schedule A to schedule B. Mr. H. DEAN presented a petition ftom Swaffham, against the use of molasses in distillation, and that the duty on sugar be reduced. Mr. EVANS presented a petition from Leicester, against the corn laws. Sir F. BURDETT took that occasion to say that these resitictiona upon the importation of corn were u disadvab. ta t tenus to the landed interest as to any other. Mr. MOORE O'FARRELL brought in a bill, which was read a first time, allowing landed proprietors to make embankments, ite. The hon member also presented a pe tition from Kildare, against the tithe system. Mr. SADLER presented a petition from an individual 'lmbed Parker, praying that the House might adopt some measure to give entployment to the Irish poor. Also, a petition from the protestant inhabitants of Galway, praying that the right of suffrage might be extended to the catholic hihabltants of that town. Mr. HUNT presented a petition from Huddersfield, in Yorkshire, praying that the inhabitants might be repre sented in Parliament. The petition was signed by 6,000 persons. They prayed that the suffrage might be univer sal, or Preston suffrage ; that Parliaments might be shortened ; and that the electors might be protected by the ballot. Sir E. SUODEN said that notice ought to be taken by the House. that even before the Reform Bill had been passed, large bodies of the people were calling out for uni versal suffrage. Mr. O'CONNELL said it ought also to be recollected that larger bodies of the people were opposed to the present system of representation. Mr. HOBHOUSE hoped that means would be taken to facilitate the passing of the Reform Bill, and that the house would meet at ten o'clock in the morning for the purpose, as the House of Lords did in the case of the Queen's trial, because, if the present course were continued, the bill would not pass the Committee for the next three or four weeks. 111 r. C. WYNNE. said it would be inconvenient for the house to sit, as it would interfere with election petitions be fore committees. Lord A LTHORP said the subject alluded to by the bon. menther for Westminster had been under the consideration of the government, but he must admit that nothing had as yet occurred that would warrant the house In taking so ex traordinary a course; but if it were necessary, if it were found that, by delay, an attempt would be made to get rid of the bill, then it was very likely he would make a motion by which the progress of the bill would be facilitated. Col. DAVIES thought that if they went on in the way they did, they would not get through with the bill for six months, let alone three or four weeks. The people of Eng. land were anxious that the Bill should pass, and they would think that they were trifled with, if the present system were continued. Why, the house had been discussing this bill for a length of time, and yet they were oily in the first part of the first clause. Sir E. B. SUODEN thought that there was a threat made use of in the oberrations made by the noble lord opposite (Lord Althorp r) (so.) Well, he understood the observa tions In that sense. He hoped lint it was not intended to exclude gentlemen of the bar from discussing this bill, whi,h would be the cue, V the proposition of the hon. immix: fcr Westniinter were acceded to. Lord ALT HORP never ir.tentled, under existing cir cumstances, to adopt the suggestion thrown out by the Hon. Member for Westminster. There might, however, arise a period when such a course would be deemed advisable, if by delay, an effort was made to get rid of the bill. (Hear.) And with respect to the observation of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, as to the Mend tre of the legal profession, it was always the doctrine of that house that tt.e first duty of a Member of Parliament was his d u ty i n t h at house. (Hear.) Mr. PRINGLE moved for a new writ for the county of Peebles, in the room of Sir Montgomery, deceased. Messengers from * the House of Lord s declared that their Lordship. had passed several private bills. COMMITMENT or THE HON. NIL LONG WELLESLEY. The SPEAKER informed the house that be had received ' a letter from the Lord High Chancellor of England, declar ing that he had committed the Hon. Mr. Long Wellesley to the Fleet for coi:tempt of Court, he having removed his daughter, a ward of tliv Court, from the protection of the Court, and refusing in open Court to deliver die infant up. The Lou' Chancellor said he had no doubt upon his mind of the power that was vested in him to commit the hon. member in question, because be had the authority of a case of a noble peer, who being similarly circumstanced, was Meat lady treated ; but be felt bound, out of the profound respect which lie had for the House of Commons and it. privileges, to acquaint the House with the tact In question. The letter were signed "Brougham, Chancellor." The SPEAKER then said that he had another letter, which came from the lion. Mr. Wellesley. The letter was dated Saturday, and stated that the writer had been ordered into confinement for not answering to an interrogatory put by the Lord Chancellor, respecting the elopement of his (ate writer's) child. He submitted that his committal was an infringement of tha t privileges of the House of Commons, of the rights of his constituents, of those of the people, and of his own. He therefore made this formal complaint, in order that the matter might be taken into the serious eon. sideration of the House. Lord ALT HORP said he believed that that was the first case of the kind that had occurred to a member of that house. In this case, he thought that the privileges of parliament ousht not to extend to the hon. member in question, because lie bad violated the rules of a High Court of Judicature, and placed its power in contempt, by removing from it a child which was a ward of the Court, and stating In Court that he would not return the infant. There was, he admitted, no precedent for this proceeding, and his suggestion was that the matter should be referred to a Committee. Mr. C. WYNNE quite agreed in the suggestion thrown out by the noble lord. The only cases in which the privi leges of perilement did not extend were treason, felony, and Wadi ot dm peen. The question would be whether the contempt in "modes ainounted to a breech of the peace, because It wan only in that acs in which the matter could be considered; and to say that a mere contempt of court was to subject a member of parliament to committal, would be monstrous. (Hear.) Sir R. PEEL quite concurred in the course suggested by the noble lord. After a few words from Mr. O'Connell, Sir C. Wetherell, Mr. R. Grant, Sir C. Burrell, and Sir J. Searleft, Mr. BARING said, that he was one of those who did not wish the privileges of Parliament to be extended further than necessub f B e : would suggest an inquiry next Session into the yr exemption from debt, which was indeed a great al to that house. The motion was then agreed to, and the committee are to sit to-morrow. sUPPLY. Upon the motion of lend ALTHORP, that the house resolve itself into a committee of supply, Mr. DAWSON wished to ask if any and what orders had been given to shoot dogs in Hyde Park ? Seven dogs had lately been shot in that Park. It was a most dangerous and disgusting practice, and he wished to call the attention of the government to the subject. What right, he asked, bad a keeper to shoot a dog following a gentlemen in Hyde Park. He had seen dogs, from the lap dog up to the New foundland dog, lying dead In the Park. Lord DUNCANNON said that Hyde Park was not under the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. He on a former occasion promised that no dog should be shot unless it was following a deer, and if any dogs had been shot under other circumstances, the keepers had violated their order. THE XING'S CORONATION. Mr. BRISCOE complained of the great expense which attended Coronations, and said he was glad to perceive that the present King did not intend to burden the nation with a heavy expense respecting his Coronation. He wished to know what the expenses would really be, and what was the expense of the last Coronation. Lord ALTHORP said that, since the revolution, It was necessary that a solemn oath should be taken by the King, at the time of his Coronation, and therefore it was necessary that every King of England should be solemnly crowned. He was glad to say that the expenses of the present Corona tion would not be one.tifth of the last.—(Hear.) After a few words from Mr. Hunt, Mr. Bliscoe, and Mr. C. Pelham, Mr. HUME said that he trusted no brevet promotion was intended after the Coronation, as the half-pay list already burdened the country. Lord A LTHORP said that the subject was under con sideradon. Mr. HUME also called the attention of the Government to the ace of Derry, which was now vacant. He read an extract of a precedent which took place in 1807 ; upon which occasion Lord Castlereagh stated that the salary should be reduced, and the difference applied to the education of the people. He hoped that a similar proceeding would be adopted in the present case, as it was really an act of cruelty that such an immense revenue should be granted to one per son, in a country where such distress existed, and where an nual starvation took place. Lord ALT HOR P replied in so low a tone to these oilier rations of the hon. member, that we could not catch a sen. tence ; and then his lordship said that he felt great satis faction in acquainting the house, that, with reference to the income of his Royal Highness Prince Leopold, of 59,0001. per annum and to which his Royal Highness was as justly entitled, it iseing settled by an Act of Parliament, as any gentleman was to his income, his Royal Highnes had written a letter to Earl Grey, stating that it was his intention, as Sovereign of Belgium, not to draw any sum from this country on account of his income. (For Prince Leopold's letter, see the proceedings of the House of Lords.) Mr. ROBINSON said that he hoped the reign of his Royal Highness would prove a happy one. Ste R. PEEL said that there could be but one opinion as to the liberality of his Royal Highness: it was an act of pure, unqualified liberality. Sir G. WA RRENDER said that this communication was most satisfactory. Mr. O'CONNELL said that there was another question of great importance which he wished to put to the Right hon. gentleman, respecting the distribution of arms, on the 11th of July, to a new Orange yeomanry corps called the Ogle Blues.' He regretted that there were a great number of the unoffending peasantry killed on the 12th of July.— Such conduct was most extraordinary, and that it should have taken place almost in the presence of the Magistrates ; but Lord Redesdale had stated, in another place, that there was one law for the rich, and another for the poor. He said that the government were entitled to great credit for having resumed the Newtownbarry affair. The catholic population had obeyed the law. He felt it his duty to inquire of the government if there were any more arms distributed amongst the yeomanry, whose conduct deserved to be visited with the displeasure of government. Mr. STANLEY said that he would pass over that obser vation of the hon. and learned gentleman respecting there be ing one law for the rich and another for the poor. He was not aware of there being such a yeomanry corps as the " Ogle Blues." He stated on a former ocasMn, that the Govern. ment had given orders to exchange arms for those that were in a bad condition and out of repair; and as soon as the Newtownbarry affair had taken plate, orders were sent down to Wexford not to iesue new arms to the yeomanry. With respect to the Newtownbarry affair be ing resumed, the Government had sent down a stipendiary magistrate to inquire into the affair, when, out of forty-one persons, seven were fully committed, and the remainder held to bail. Captain Graham, who was a most respectable man, was also held to bail in two sureties of 5001. each, and himself in 1,0001. With regard to the Banbridge affair, he understood that it was resolved upon ty both parties to have a fight on the 12th of July, and that it was arranged between the Orangemen and Catholics, called the Thrashers, to meet in a particular spot, abd that a fight should ensue; the loss of several lives was the result. The government had sent down Major Carter, a stipendiary magistrate, to inquire into the affair. He hoped that those animosities would soon subside. He admitted that the Catholics had exhibited a strong desire to give up their prejudices, and he regretted that the other party had not done so . After some further remarks from an hon. member, Sir John Newport, and the Lord Advocate, Mr. J. WOOD recommended an immediate inquiry into the whole affair, and if any magistrate or °Seer was found in those processions, it would be the duty of the government to dismiss such persons. Mr. STANLEY said, that his Majesty's government would use all their influence to put down these na, and exercise every controul over persons ur.der therTfitence. After some further conversation, Mr. HUME slid, that the government were to blame for allowing the yeomanry to retain arms, when they were dis posed to use them upon every occasion of excitement. He thought that the government would not have suffered such conduct to be pursued. Out of the 21 stipendiary magis trates, there was not one Roman Catholic. Was this jus. tiae? Was it fair or just ? Sir R. BATESON said that he had letters from Ireland that day, and be felt pleased to state that, with the excep tion of the affair of Banbridge, there was no disturbance in any other part. After a few remarks frotn Mr. 00U1sBURN, Mr. RUTHVEN said the law was strong enough, if the Magistrates would act with firmness and determination. Mr. S. RICE requested that the discussion should be dropped, as it was not likely to be productive of any ad vantage. Capt. GORDON defended the conduct of the yeomanry. Mr. PERRIN said that it was high time that the law should be put in force, and all parties put down, and if a new law was necessary, the Government ought to pus one that would terminate all those processions, and grounds of complaint. Colonel CONNOLLY bore testimony to the fact that Orange processions had not taken place in the proportion of one to ten, compared with former processions. Sir IL BATESON explained, and asked when it was the intention of the Right Hon. Gentleman to bring forward the Arms' Bill ? Mr. STANLEY said that he would bring it forward that evening, if there was time, after the Committee of Supply. Mr. O. DAWSON said that, with reference to the dia. mission which took place the other night upon the claim of Sir A. B. King, it was stated that the Committee of 18:08 was not aware that the patent wu a patent held during pleasure. Now he begged to state that the Committee was in full possession of the fact, as it was before the Committee for three weeks. He begged to make these observations for the information of the Noble Losd (Althorp), as the Com mittee came to the decision they did, under the impression that the Committee of 1829 were not in possession of such information. Lord ALTHORP, not being a Member of the mittee, be only spoke from the information he 11 4 ,1 ceived from others. The grounds upon which he &end.: against the grant, were a sense of duty to the century ;t , L himself. Mr. GORDON said that, as one of the Committee, must acknowledge that he was not aware that the paten: held during pleasure. The patent held by Mr. GrierAor, the Ring's printer, was held for life. After a few remarks from Mr. G. Dawson, 111 r. S. g;, ‘ Colonel Maberly, Mr. Goulburn, Mr. Serjeant Mr. Lefroy, the myrmidon dropped. The house went into the Committee on Supplies. Lord ALTHORP said that he hoped no objection 14-0,11 be made to the votes he was about to submit to the Cur. mattes. It was not his intention to go into details, iS items were to be referred to the committee upstairs. Ile d not intend to refer the questions of compensations a-d . lions to the committee. The others were questions 01(41,1 and belted no objection that they should be investigated. The noble lord moved that the sum of 240,000 L be gra ft. ' to his Majesty foe salaries, allowances, pensions, for six ,th paid out of the Civil List. and his Majesty's heredPary venues in Scotland, and the four and a half per cents. due to the sth July, 1831. After a few remarks from Mr. Hums and Me' Go. DON in opposition to the grant of pensions amo unt i ng to 75,01101. Lord ALTHORP said that it was not unusual to e o f e the sums included in this vote in one sum, and as the our, proposed was only up to the sth July, he could see no gift 0. of objection to the vote. Mr. ROBINSON said that if the pensions were voted ty, to the sth, it would be a recognition of the claims of the pensioners. He thought it better to grant the vote deducting 76,0001. for pensions until those claims of the pensioners ver, enquired into before a Committee. He proposed an amend. ment, that the sum be reduced by 75,0001. Mr. HUNT seconded the motion. He had no delicacy, like °theta, In throwing obstacles in the way of hls hia. jesty's ministers. He thought that the subject should be submitted to a committee. If soy of those pensioners had a just claim for public services, be was satisfied that the people would not object to have their pensions continued. He was determined to divide the House on it. The question having been put from the Chair, _Captain HARRIS rose to ask the noble Lord (Alth er o whether he did not consider this a monarchical grant, and whether he did not say, on opening the budget, that he held monarchial grants sacred, and would not interfere * L b monarchical grants. (A laugh.) He stated this, because the borough right of Great Grimsby was a monarchic a l grant. (Loud laughter.) He held the grant to a borough as ascred as one to individuals. Pensions were given to the rich for services, and the grant was made to Great Grimsby on account of services to the state. He never would cement to deprive the poor voters of Great Grimsby of their oinnarchi. cal grants, while rich men had their monarchical grants con. tinned to them. (The gallant captain pronounced the word monarchical " monarchial," which caused considerable laughter.) Lord ALTHORP observed that the question of Great Grimsby was not now under consideration. The hon. metu. bet for Worcester should have proposed a reduction of 88,0001. not 75,0001. to bring the case within the principle, for the 75,0001. included the Irish and Scotch pensions. He would not consent to submit these pensions to a committee; for be was of opinion that the proposed sum should be left in the power of the crown to dispose of in pensions as :t pleased. It was entirely a question of principle. It was said that some of these pensions should not have bees granted; but as they had been granted, the house could no consistently with equity suspend them. He was aware from what had passed before, that he &Mild meet with con.' siderable opposition in proposing to place these pensions on the consolidated fund. Alderman VENA BLES would support the present mo. lion, but when the question came on for rearing the subject to a Committee, he should support it. Mr. BRISCOE supported the amendment. Mr. 81ORRISON, as we understood, would support the Government, though, if he had been in the House when the motion respecting Sir Abraham Bradley King had come on, he should have supported it. Mr. 8. RICE observed that there was no similarity be. tween the present vote and that proposed for Sir A. B. King. Mr. GOULBURN supported the vote ; at the same time he did not understand to what part of the service this 240,0001. was to be applied. When the question came on for referring the subject to a committee, he would take b:s stand against It. He thought that the house would not be justified In withholding the pensions now; if they were to do it at all, they should have done it at an earlier period.— He thought that they were precluded from withholdin g t hi s vote by the proceedings of last session. Mr. MILLS did not feel himself bound by any thing which passed in the last Parliament. He would never consent to give one shilling in the way of pension to any person who did not deserve it. He should therefore support the amendment. Mr. ROBINSON had always objected to these pensions and did not feel himself precluded from opposing the present vote by what passed in the last Parliament. The hon. 111 CM. her then withdrew his amendment and moved, by way of a correction of it, that 181,0001. be granted to his Alajesty. Mr. HODGES supported the amendment. Mr. STRICKLAND observed that there was a strong feeling among the public on the subject of these pensions. He would reluctantly support the vote on this occasion, but he firmly hoped that those p e n s i ons wou ld b e submitt ed to • Committee. The people would be better pleased to give a million to persons who deserved it, than ten pounds to persons who performed no public services. Mr. COURTENAY did not see how the House could consistently stop these pensions, after the division of last session. if the subject was to be considered at all, a select committee of that House was the proper tribunal to which it should be submitted. Mr. HUME admitted that a Committee upstairs would be an improper tribunal for the consideration of this subject, if it consisted of Members interested in preserving these pen sions. It would not be doing justice to the subject to press the amendment in the present state of the House, u no notice had been given of it. He would himself at a future period bring the subject properlrbefore the 110 , 11k4 After a few words from Mr. JEPHSON, Lord ALTHORP admitted that the house was not pre cluded by anything which passed in the last session from vo ting submitting it to the consideration of a committee ; but as the object for referring the subject to a committee would be to make a reduction in the pensions, be should oppose submitting them to a committee, because he thought that no reduction should be made. Mr. HUNT did not see how hon. members who wished for a committee could vote for the proposed grant, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer was opposed to refer ring it to a committee. There were several ladies on the Pension List. Was it not better to have them examined upstairs than at the bar ?---(Laughter.) Mr. WA RRE supported the grant. Mr. O'CONNELL hoped that the question would not be pressed to a division, as it was an inconvenient mode of deciding it. If there was a just claim for any of these pen sions, he thought they ought to be allowed. But if. like the Irish Pension List, there appeared to be any whose public services did not deserve a pension, he should vote for withholding It from such persons. There were 58,0001! granted in pensions in Ireland, yet there was not one of the pensioners on the list whose public services deserved a pen sion except the descendants of Admiral Rodney. Mr. Serjeant WILDE would oppose any grant of the public money except for public services; at the same time be did hot think it just to stop this grant all at once, parti cularly as it was proposed pursuant to an arrangement made in the last Parliament. The pensions granted upon the consolidated fund as they fell in would be for the advantage of the public. Mr. JEPHSON said that the question of humanity al luded to by the hon. and learned gentleman, was for the consideration of the select committee. After a few words from Sir C. Wreetaan.t.. Mr. ROBINSON said he would give up his motion. Mr. MILLS said be would divide the House on the motion. After a few words from an Hen. Mmatza whose mum we could not learn, Lord G. LENNOX said he would support his Majesty's Ministers on this subject, as it wee neeessary they should inq be sup uiry ported. He would, on a future occasion, support into these p& After a few wads from Mr. BOLTON KING, who lo* (erred from what had passed that night the necessity which existed for a strict species of reform, An Hon. MEMBER, who was in a very lanelshk stow of intoxication, rase and addressed the house amidst reels of laughter and loud cries " Order !" He said that, what they would, whether they went to the right or to the left, they must hav e re f orm , bemuse the cottony required