Star. — London, England, 1821-02-10 00:00:00

this number of Members should obstruct him end his friends, in every plan of economical Reform ? (Hear.) —There was another class of Members in ; h i s Ho u se, who were called independent Members, t whose families lived on the taxes of the countr y , hear, from the Chancellor ofthe Exchequer).— l the Right Hon : Gentleman deny this statement? iu v old he deny that those Members had, some their yhers, some their cousins, placed either in the Cus the Laud Tax, or the Distribution of Stamps? t ,im e ar hear.)—Could the Right Hon. Gentleman „ t oy that he hims-lf received daily applications from those who were c., led independent Members of this House, for emplr% 'cents for some of their friends in . owe departments ?—( Hear, hear.) Could he deny tat the Treasury was daily assailed by men who ~ vent, as they themelves expressed it, " in pursuit **their property ?•'—(Lereghter.) He knew the fact— o* was living amongst them—he knew that the fe llatio of nine out of ten of those Members who tailed themselves independent, lived upon the taxes ! ilt could not be denied. Those, then, were the two ciesciptions of Members who called themselves " in eependent," but whose. families were quartered on the taxes, who prevented every attempt at Reform. When he considered this state of the House, he was ne e only not surprised at the majorities which Minis ters had, but he was astonished that his friends were able to make so good a fight as they did (Heat, hear). Here, then, was a grievance which, he contended, o ught to be taken into consideration before they R anted one shilling of the Supplies. He trusted that the subject would excite the attention of his Right . : Honourable Friend (Mr. Tierney), and that he would lend his great experience- and high authority to the introduction of a Bill for the purpose of limiting the number of placemen in this House, and to prevent more of them from sitting there than was necessary to the interests of the public service. By dcing so, he would confer the greatest possible benefit on his country. There was another Honourable Friend of his, who, he hoped, would forward the object he had in view, by fallowing up the intention which he ex pressed last year, of introducing a new and more eco nomical system of collecting the Taxes (Hear, Hear.) By the adoption of that measure a great saving would be produced. He was confident that out of the four millions now expended in the collection of taxes, they might effect a saving of at least one million, and se cure the remainder from coming under the rapacious grasp of Members of Parliament (Year, hear). Was it not monstrous, that when the People were pressed down to the ground by taxes—that when the higher •rder of land-owners talked of taxing the Funds— that this species rd . Reform, so manifest and so pro. ductive, should be resisted by any set of men?— (Hear, hear). This was a kind of Reform so impe riously called for, that he hoped his Right Honour able Friend would at once give the sanction of his' au'hority to it. If they had only the real iudepen- dent Members of the House to contend with, exclud ing the seventy-two placemen, and those whose fa milies lived on the.taxes, he had no doubt that they might advance far in the work of Reform. He did not wish to hold out any delusive prospects to the country ; but he believed he might safely state, from the little he knew, and from what he had beard from others who knew, much more than he did, that in the different branches of the Revenue a saving of four .millions might be effected by retrenchment (Wear.) That saving might, of course, be applied to the re duction of taxes to that amount. But it would not end here: not only this saving of four millions might be effected, but it would afford a prospect of future retrenchment, and of union with the People; because they would then see a determination on the part of the House to reduce the taxes (Hear, hear). He would not. now go farther with this subject; but a proposition having been made for a sum, though it was never so small, he was determined to divide the Committee upon it; and be would continue to do so mud the Government and the House were impressed with the necessity of attending to the subject (Hear). TheCHANCLLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the House had 'a right, lay the Speech from the Throne, to look for a considerable diminution in the expenditure, and they should not be disappointed. Though the saving would not be to the amount stated by the Honourable Gentleman, yet a saving of a mil lion would be found to have taken place in the present year—(Hear). In the management of the Revenue, also,under the recommendation of the Commissioners, a saving of £130,000 annually had been effected. Colonel DAVIES was happy that a saving had been made, though not to the extent that might have been wished; but he could vote no Supplies till the 'Estimates should be laid on the table—(Hear, hear). In the last Session of Parliament, though the House had met in November, the Army Estimates, to the 'amount of ten millions, had not been submitted to the House till the middle of May. He should be glad to knew how much of the million would be saved out of the Army expenses, and what had been done for the suppression of smuggling ? Mr. LOCKHART was aware that the mode pro, posed by the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Cieevey) was not usual; but, after the statement made last night, the House could not be called on to vote from ; trust and confidence. It had been justly stated by a Noble Lord, that no breach should be made in the , national faith. Nothing could be looked to but eco. , poesy on the pan of Ministers--(yeer, hear). He 6 had no doubt that the taxes were imposed and col ,, ktted legally ; but the question was, were they tol -1 hated equitably? They had been Imposed in monies o numbered, and it was always meant that enough e should be left to suppoft the parties taxed. On ac s taunt of the depreciation of mosey, an increase of i salary was granted to different Public Functionaries, t and to the Members of the Royal Family; but now 4 that things had come back to the level of what they 4 were thirty years ago, no retrenchment had been made at in favour of the People. He did not wish to disturb r, the Fundholder in the receipt of his dividends ; but l e lap injery could arise from equal taxation. In the Ro ll tam history, one class had been so oppressed by b. wary, that they abandoned the city. He wished the a . Government to attend to economy, and to chew the a People that they were interested in their welfare. As at 6 diminuti on o f expenses had taken place in the price o f the ' I ante es of life, a corresponding retrenchment R "Zit to be made. Mr. HUME would enter his p r ote s t against the s• A . I° .. a "P n tesentatiost of the speech of the Member for to 1 , nton (Mr. Baring). The object of the Right Hon. a t _ bu tlearell was to coatiuue the tax on malt as well , :1 1 1:,` - 1 ! '-. , .. , ". • , • ' as spirits, though,-b7 the Act s hy which..it was the reductions they might. The number 'ol" place .graimed; itiwas to•serpite , within a lisfitedliine. Rut men in the Hobs, ought to be made. a substantive the cospeinuasjoa 90 aysingie tax should Clot be Voted motion. If the tax on malt was a revival of the one till Ministers canm forward with a statement of their imposed two years ago, he should oppose it'. intentions as to yecosichment—(Hear. hear).--The . Mr. HUSKISSON said, the tax is only a renewal' tax was demanded on the ground of a reduction of of the annual'tax—it is a permanent tax, and accom a million having been 'made in the' public expendi-p anics the Laed-tax. The quantity of malt made tare ; but the Chancellor of th e' Exchequer had t year exceeded that of two or three fOrmer years. E lt stated, in 1817, that the rxpenses• of list yeur•won ld •Mr. CREEVEY would not divide the. Committee may be 17 millions, when, instead of that, they had on the cadres, but on.she new Malt-tax. amounted to 19 millions, being two millions above Sir .W. DE CRESPIGNY said he would soon *is own calculation. With the exception of the sala- bring forward a Motion on the subject of the frauds ries of Ministers, which had received no increase, the on the Reveque. Unless the whole system was altered salaries and emoluments of all oilier classes of public the country must deteriorate. ' l inen bad been greatly incremed—( Hear, hear). —In Sir F. BLAKE defended the conduct of the Coin- England od Scotland individuals had been kept in mittee of Supply, which had been termed afarce be office, for the sake of patronage, at an expense to the cause a few Members only4iad been present. If the Public of from one to•aoo,ooo—(Hear heal.-- Committee were a far4e, it wal owing to the conduit And, should he divide with but his Hon. Friend,' he of the Honourable Member himself, whO hid - divided should oppose the proposed tax. Had the Income the Committee five times with 'no chance of success. Tax been continued, there would not have been any He was fully satisfied with the number of seamen retrenchment—(Hear). proposed to be voted. Mr. R. WARD said, that the higher Officers in the Mr. CREEVEY stated, that he should not take the Ordnance had been reduced—his own salary to the sense of the Committee on any of the old taxes, but amount of £6OO a-year; another to the amount of only on the new. 1.500; and a third to the amount of £BOO. The Resolutions on the Malt Tax, the Excise on Mr. HUME could point out instances where enor- Snuff and Tobacco, together with the Land Tax and mous pensions had been granted; but he would ask theTaxonPensions, wereputand carried unanimously. the Hon. Gentleman whether the Storekeeper of On the Resolution for comm . uing . the additional Dover had not retired with a salary of I-500? Duties on Sugar,- Malt, Tobacco, &c. imposed for the Mr. It. WARD said, the Storekeeper of Dover had purpose of raising three millions of Revenue, the not retired at all! • . __ Committee divided.—For the Resolution, 81; against it, 48—Majority, 31. The House then resumed, and the Report was or dered to be received on Monday. LONGITUDE AMENDMENT BILL. • The Report of the Longitude Amendment Bill was brought up, the Amendments were agreed to; and the Bill ordered to be read a third time on Monday next. BOARD OF CONTIOUL. Mr. HUME rose, to submit to the House the mo tion of which he had given notice, and of which the object was to ascertain whether the Right Hon. Gen tleman, the President of the Board of Controul, had vacated his seat. He had no doubt, from the exa mination which he had made, that, if the appoint ment of the Right Hon. Gentleman corresponded with the time of taking his seat, he was free from the pe nalty. But that could not be known to the House without the warrant of the Right Ron. Gentleman's appointment. When any motion for Reform was made from his (Mr. Hume's) side of the House, there was an outcry by the other side against innovation. Yet, by the other side of the House were the most dangeious innovations made on the Constitution of the Country. Not one of the four Right Hon. Gem~ tlemen whom he saw opposite, could Mold a seat in that House by the Act of Queen Anne, or could vote away public money, as they had done in the last di vision which had taken place. This was contrary to the intention of the ancient Constitution in the best sprit of our ancestors. The great objection to Mr. Fox's Bill had been, that , it gave patronage to the Crown and occasioned tipenses to the India Com pany. Mr. Pitt had pledged his promise that his Bin would be productive of neither of those evils. From 1784 to 1793, the Commissioners had had, indeed, no salary : but the Act of the 33d of his late Ma; jesty gave five thousand pounds, with this provision, that those Commissioners who received salary should vacate their seats in Parliament. But was not patron age emolument? (" No, uo,"fion. the Treasury Bend). If it was not emolument in a pecuniary sense, it was in the spirit of the Act, and accordingly every, Presi dent since 179$ had vacated his seat on his appoint anat. The value of the patronage of the India Corn. pany had been shewn in a Pamphlet published by a Member of the last Parliament, Mr. R. Grant. There it appeared that there were SOO regular appointments in the patronage of the President of the Board of Controul. The patronage this year, and entirely he• longing to the President of the Board, was, twenty-six Cadets, two Writers, and four Assistant-Surgeons.— The value of those appointments would amount to £12,000. A Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had been' brought before the House for buying a seat r -(Hear p , hear). For that seat the price to have been given was, the appointment of one Writer. They all knew what the price of a seat was. The President of the Board of Controul had appointed two Writers last Novens. ber, and consequently his patronage, in that respect. was worth two seats in Parliament. The Board of Controul had occasioned expenses to the Company . to the amount of £BOO,OOO. Yet the Commissioners never did act as a Board, and the President now re ceived no salary. Why then could not the Board be altogether dispensed with ? The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving an humble Address, • praying " That there be laid before the House, Copies of the Letters Patent, or Commission, by which the )tight Hon. George Canning was appointed President of the Board of Controul,, and the Right Hon. C. Bathurst was subsequently appointed to the same Office." Mr. BATHURST did not object to the production . of this document; and he had expected the Honour.; able Gentleman would not have reasoned on this Mat ter until' he had the document before him. When that came before the House, they would see whether he fell under the Act of Queen Anne, when he had no appointment of salary at present. That Act expreply said, that if the Officers of the Board of Controul did not receive salaries, they were not bound to vacate their seats. He should certainly be sorry to be de prived of all the emoluments to be derived from his office .but all this was premature now, until the do cument was before the House. Mr. CRFEVEY wished to know the nature of the Sign Manual granted for holding the office. At first the President had £2,000, and latterly £6,000 alear. By the Act of Anne, this was a place of profit and. emolument. He did not believe that the Right Ho , nouralde Gentleman was about to use his patronage emolument and pecuniary profit; but he had no doubt he would use it as any other President of the Board of Controul would ; and if he did so, it was evidently a place of profit. Mr. W. SMITH said, the only object in this mo tion was to understand whether the influence of the Crown did not exist in this House in a very extraor. dinary degree? This was a matter with which the country ought to be made acquainted. The patron age of this office and the emoluments under it tended ' to increase the influence of the-Crown, and ought . to be put an end to. Mr. B. BATHURST explained.- The whole object Mr. HUSKISSON said, that the proposed tax was an annual one, and had been voted as such from the time of Queen Anne. The tax was an annual one, and went to cover an expense already incurred. The practice of late years, as to the Estimates, had been much improved. No sums for the Extraordinaries of the Army or Navy could be called for till the Estimates should be in the hands of Members., — Though the Seamen had been voted, no money could be applied without a vote in the Committee of Sup ply. The House would not put itself in the predica ment of voting an armament, and refusing the means of fitting it out. Though he admitted the distresli, he thonet it had been exaggerated. He begged the House not to deviate from the uniform practice of Parliament. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that it was proved that much distress existed, and he should like to knew in what the exaggeration consisted? In time of peace, the Estimates should be ready when the I money was called for. Why had not the Estimates been ready before the Meeting of Parliament? But the public business was deferred till the close of the Session, when thirty or forty Bills were read in the course cf a night, and many of them so full of blun din, as to be a disgrace to the Legislature. A few years ago, a Bill had been introduced, imposing a duty os Madder, in which the word " Madder" had been left oat ; and some years farther back, an of fence had been declared punishable with six months imprisonment, one half of which went to the King ! In fact, the House of Lords had made a point of throwing out, without examination, Bills sent up to them at the close of the Session. Mr. HUSKISSON stated, that the 6otton and Woollen Menu/acmes had improved. Mr. BROWN complained of the depressed state oldie Linen Manufactories in Ireland . W it h to the cause of the general distress, he believed at to be the great exertions to which the country had been driven. It had been placed, by a great and glorious war, in the very highest rank among the nations.--• Thank GOD, it was so. But the struggle had pin. duced the effect of which we now complained; and he believed the emergencies of our situation could only have been met and remedied by one masterly hand. That masterly hand was now no more !--he meant the late Mr. Pitt—(Hear, hear).—The Hon. Member then compared the state of Ireland with that of this country, and concluded that the former was by far the most lamentable. Mr. GLADSTONE deprecated the idea that the House could apply any immediate remedy to the existing distresses. But he was happy to know, that the consumption of grain had of late much increased in the manufacturing districts.—The Hon. Gentleman was adverting to what bad taken plate on the former evening, when he was stopped by the Chairman as being irregular. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that in a Committee of Supply a Member was allowed to advert to every topic connected with the state of the Nation. That fact, the Chairman, from his ample experience, must be fully aware of. Mr. BROGDEN was not at all offended by the I lecture that had very properly been read to him. It appeared to him that the Hon. Gentleman had deviated from order ; but it was for the Committee to decide. Mr. GLADSTONE resumed. The cause of the distress at Birmingham had been justly stated by the Member for Stafford, to be owing to the loss of the supply of arms. As to the assertion that had been made, of the friends of Members holding situations 6f profit, he knew nothing of that kind in Liverpool. CREEVEY begged to ask the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) how the appointment of Mr. Stanniforth, who held a situation of 13,000 or £4,000 a-year, had taken place ? Would the Ho nourable Gentleman say, that this had been done in dependently of any political connection ? The Ho pourable Member also- mentioned the name of an other individual, Mr. Falkner, as holding a situation of considerable profit. Mr. GLADSTONE would affirm that Mr. Stanni forth had no connection with the Members for Liver pool, at least no relationship that he was aware of. Mr."CREEVEY did not wish to be understood as mentioning the name of Mr. Stanniforth with any disrespect. He had the pleasure of, knowing that Gentleman, and he respected him; but as the Ho nourable Member (Mr. Gladstone) had denied that the Members for Liverpool were in the situation in which he (Mr. Creevey) had, -in an early part of the debate, described other Members to- be, he would state, that Mr. Stanniforth was a relative of Mr. Bol ton, and that the place: which he got being warmly contested at the Treasury, Lord Lonsdale ktits set in motion in-his-favour, and he succeeded—(Order). Mr. lIROGD,EN said that, after the reprimand he had just received, he was unwilling to interrupt any Hon. Member; but he put it to the Committee whe ther this kind of discussion respecting private indivi duals was orderly ?—(Hear). Mr. WESTERN denied that Ministers had made ; agai • , • of this motion was to ascertain whether he Lad va cated his seat by accepting this office? Mr. M. FITZGERALU thought this a matter of so much importance that it was irnrzrative on the House to inquire whether the Right Honourable Gen tleinan held his situation in violation of the law of the land ? Every other office under the Crown might be held during ilia Session of Parliament, as long as .the bolder of at 'mailed for that time to accept the emoluments Of it. If he possessed the patronage of this office he could (notwithstanding all the ease with which he gained his seat in Parliament) obtain it still more easily by being able to bestow twenty-six Ca detships, two Writerships, &and so many situations as _ Assistant-Surgeons, among his constituents. When Lord Melville was at the head of this Board, India was peopled with aspiring young Scotchmen. Then came a change for the better; and when an Irish man got at the head of it, none but Irishmen got ap pointments in India. There would, he now hoped, 'come a still happier change; and England would at last have her due share in the advantages to be de rived from East India patronage. Mr. B. BATHURST again repeated, that the only question was, whether he had vacated'his seat by ac cepting of this office without salary, which was the only tenour on which he held his office? Mr. M. FITZGERALD did not mean to attribute the smallest interested motive to the Right Honour able Gentleman. Lord ALTHORPE said, he did not conceive the Right lion, Gentleman's Ccmstituents would think him less acceptable to them because he possessed this patronage. Mr. T. COURTENAY said, there was no salary now payable to his Right Hon. Friehd near him. It never had been customary to vacate a seat in Par liament on accepting the office of President of the Board for India Affairs without salary. Mr. DENMAN wished to know, if the Right Hon. Gentleman did not receive the salary usually at. tached to his office, what became of it?—(Hear). It was generally rumoured, that the Right Hon. Gentleman received no part of it himself, but re served it for another Rigjit Hon. Gentleman who had lately held the office, and who was now absent from the country—(Cries of " No, no," from the Mi nisterial Benches). If that were the case, was it distri buted amongst the other Commissioners ?—(Cries of " No, no.") Or was it saved to the Public ?—(Cries of " No, no; to Me 'East India Company.") It was satisfactory at least to'know that fact. Lord BINNING would not have troubled the House on this question had it not been for the allu• sion just made to his Right Hon. Friend, the late President of the Board of Controul. Where, in the name of GOD, bad the Hon. Gentleman heard of this rumour ? Why had he mentioned it ?—(Cheersr.i— Was the character of publii men to be thus loosely sported with? . His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning) would be the last man in the world to receive to emoluments of an office the duties of which he did not perform—(Hear). Mr. DENMAN had mentioned nothing that had not already appeared inahe Newspapers. If the Noble Lord thought that he had done the character of his Right Hon. Friend any benefit by the defence he had made of it, he laboured under considerable delusion. - Mr. S. BOURNE thought that no such imputation had ever been previously made by one public man against the character of another—(Hear).—Would the Hon. and Learned Gentleman state the authority on which he had mentioned this circumstance?.— (Hear, hear).—He never, during the whole course nf his political life, which had been a pretty long one, heard such an insinuation come from any political malignant- , ..-(ifear, hear). Mr. DENMAN had made no insinuation against the character of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning), but had' put what he conceived to be a fair question to the.Rigbt Hon. Gentleman who now pre sided at the Board of Controul. Political malignity to that Right,Hon. Gentleman's predecessor 'he felt none. At any rate," . such a question- as 'he had put gave Mr. Canning's friends' an' opportunity of con tradicting a very prevalent rumour.' The soreness which the two Honourable Members opposite had exhibited, was no very great compliment to their Right Hon. Friend. 'Mr. ASTELL saw nothing that ought to, have called forth the warm feelings which had just been exhibited. — After eulogizing, in very strong terms, the conduct of Mr. Canning, as President of the Board of Controta, he expressedhis satisfaction that the East India Company was to benefit by theßight Hon. Gentleman (Mr. C. B. Bathurst) not i tg his salary. _ After a few words from Mr. W. COURTENAY, the motion was put and carried. The second motion of Mr. Hums was now put: "That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, pray.. ing that his Majesty would be graciously pleased to order that a copy of the last Warrant, under the sign manual of his Majesty, _ _ _ countersigned .by tke Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Eackequer, and certified by the late President of the Board of Controul, for Sabuies,"as required by the 32d Geo. 111. should be laid before the House." This, after a desultory conversation, in which Mr. Hoist,' Mr. C. B. BATHiblotr, Mr. 44.1T1LL, and Mr. T. P. COULTEXAT i took a part, was carried. Colonel DAVIES wished to know what was to be done with this salary, now thak the Hon. Gentlemap did not receive it? Mr. B. BATHU.RST said, that. he had already stated, ten I times over, that it would be a siring out of the sum granted trp the East India Company. The Board of Controulwouhl have. no claim on the East India Company for the 45,000. Olathe motion of Mr. Hume, a copy si the bit:Werrallt, is sued under the Presidency of Mr. B. ', f arness; walkordertinik be laid on the talaht. . NATI 1131 1 anici. ' On the motion Mr. Caszver..the,Ziavy &Own ed itlic to the grants reported on Tuesday last, were ordered to be laid on the table.—The.other Orders onbtl)ay wets then disposed of, and the House adjourned, at Half past • .. • y o u- wnit BE IY)O.LA'PE AFTER NEXT w KDN ES DAY r but if W hole VALLICTIMeI v, you can only , Iwo on a Whole Tkket; its. for i Si xt tvuth. (and other Maori folk ion), because all your Money w;:l.b e returned, eireilt she rifling stints; wbetht r your Number* is drawn a Blink, Small Prize, or remains in the Wheel,*.provideit they are brought back on or befOre' FRI DAY, .then 23d of February-; but if opt returned by thai tittle, the Adventurers must, of courseohen take thdir chin& for the remainder of the Drawing. Three otlX2,oooare'stare'lti be drawn in the Bret Five Minutes. The Wheel coßtains sr. of £1!1, 1 00, Sic. COO. Wig and Maley. . Not Two Hanks ici'at Prize. Tickets ana Shases.are selling by T. DISH, 4, Cofnkill, and 9, Clarks& Cross, Loudon; and by his Agents In ' he'Country ; who shar e d and s old, in the last Lottery Contract just ended, 1,499, X 20,000, £20,0003,645, X 10,000.. • .~: 1 1