Star. — London, England, 1817-01-30 00:00:00

, eases trot end each peti , ions with a voice sufficiently audible to attain that .tension which he thought they oug ht to receive. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER again ipote to order. He subtnitted it was the duty of the Speaker to preserve silence while any petition was being read, and any clamour like that described by the Noble Lord to have been excited in particular cases; would have been immediately checked by his interfttence. He suhraltted, it was not for any in dividual Member to pursue the coarse which had on this occasion been taken .by the Noble Lord. The SPEAKER having once stated the order of the House, had not expected the Noble Lord would again have departed from it. The Noble Lord now knew what was the" coarse proper to be taken, and he trusted he would not lore sight of it again. Lewd COCH RANE would not do that which in the opinitin of the Speaker was improper. He hoped the Petititm which he now presented would be read by the Clerk with au audible voice ; and he'forther b6ped, that every one in the House would attend to the prayer of it. Adverting to what had been said of the late distorbances, be would challenge any man • to prove that these had occurred at meetings called to consider of petitioning for a Parliamentary Re form. He defied any body to prove that any efforts had been made to subvert the Constitution, or that their proceedings had in one instance made the inter . feeence of the military necessary. They had ,heard of riots at Bristol ; but the only disturbance that had , occurred was caused by a Police Officer, a person in the pay of Government, who bad been found attempt ing to create a riot. For the disturbances of Spa fields, these had originated with a mob who bad been to see some men executed, consisting of base4lnd dis orderly persons, such as were found in:every town, and of .starving seamen, who, after bravely fighting, the battles of their Country at the Nile and Trafalgar, usideithe brave Nelson, now found themselves without the means of subsistence, reduced to a state of misery acid starvation, and forced to kg for stipport. In this . state it was natural to suppose them in such a state' of irritation as would naturallg drive them to excess's. The SPEAKER again reminded the Noble Lerd that he was departing,. though in another mode, from the established order of that House. It was the right and duty of a Member presenting a Petition to *tate the substance of it, but to go ao further at that time. Lord COCHRANE then described the Petition to be for the abolition of sinecure places, and for the introduction of strict economy into every department of the State. Mr. FREEMANTLE said that the Noble Lord bad transgressed the Orders of the House. In the int instance, the question was put that the Petition should be brought up, and this carried, it was nest moved that it ahould be read. He stated this merely to chew the Noble Lord had been in error. He wished to say nothing of the put ; but he was deli. TOW of putting him (Lord Cochrane) on his guard for the future. Mr. WEBBER thought. from the course pursued by the Nobk Lord, there might be someth;ng con. tamed in the Petition Which was not consonant with that decorum which ought to be observed by those who addressed that House. He hoped Lord Co chrane, baring read, would vouch for the proprietor of its language; 'or if this were not done, and it should' be found that its contents were not such as eight to be submitted to that House, he hoped some Member of greater weight than himself would move a vote of censure 01 it. The Petition was then read by the Clerk. Mr. PROTHERO not having seen the names at. Maid to this Petition, could not pretend to say who the Petitioners MIL But this he could say, he had not been asked by any one of his Constituents to sup. part-it.—(leer, hien hear.) After stating this, it was almost superfluous for him to say, that he was thoroUghly convinced it did not speak the sentiments of the people of Bristol.—(Hear, hoer, Bear.) Mr. HART DAVIS said the Petition before the' Blase had been voted at a public meeting in Bristol, bat riot at a meeting regularly convened by the She rdf. A large proportion of the attendants consisted of women and crisn t and ant one hundredth part of the inhabitants of Bristol had sanctioned it by their presence. He had not been at it himself, but this in. furniation he hail received from a friend who was Mete. On the day of the meeting, he knew there had been bet one feeling on the subject in Bristol— that of aosiety for the preservation of the public miter ; and no fewer than 3200 of the inh:tbitants hid . enrolled themselves as special constables on that occasion. Whatever the feelings of his Constituents alight be on be delicate question of Reform—how. ever anxious they might feel that the Constitution shoold undergo some revision—that those imperfec doss which in the lapse of ages had crept in should be done away—whatever they might feel on these pipititi, be was sure (though he would not take upon hiolself to say what their sentiments were on the ques tion of Reform). that this Petition did nut emanate from them, and that it did not express their semi. Amt. He therefore protested against its being re tieived as the Petition of *the People of Bristol. The, Motile Lord - bad said there bad been no riot at Brie.' toe, but that attempted to be created by a Police.Of ker. Of this' till that mimesis, be had heard no thing; and 'therefore could make no comment on the 11ii ie so 'Kt t, bet hefelt it.to be his duty again to protest this Petition being received as that of the City. . istol. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUZR aid, how far this Petition was from being that of the Poo 7'e of Bristol, the House, after what had just deco stated, would be able to judge for itself; but as it *as 'the Petition of * public meeting, he could net tie (Lisa. wield be improper to lay it on their table. Saine'4f ilie topics *?rich it embraced*mightnot have EWell Sutrodstied ; bug at Me same time, he gist there writ nothing so divltpectful to the se=so dready transgreliting its rums., as to call siiiiiVin to !Ojai it. ' The epealon, that the Petition should lie on the 6liii,,, Was Put and carried. . Lord COCIfRA.NE *rose tot'fer some explanation sio the 'Alta Of Pe t iti on - The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER called the Noble Lord to order, and renundsd him that tie ?Wait' was disposed of, and that Woe was so question before the House. The § 4 PEAKER said the Noble Losd could not speak on the subject of. the Bridal Petition. *bat be had to isty nltist.be tifferetton* some other question. Lora COCHRANE wished to slate what he had Wended' to pity. The SPEAKER appealed to the House if he bad .not done his.duty, and left it for them to determine whether the Noble Lord should be heard? ( Ckeering.) Lord COCHRANE presented a Petition from the Township of Quick, in the Parish of Saddleworih, in the County of York. The Petition having beeti read, on the motion that it should lie on the table— The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, for the same reasons that had operated on his mind when be reenpuneaded that the last Petition should lie on their table, he deemed it his duty to object to this. That Petition, though it went as far as a Peti tion could go irithOut positively insulting the House, did not directly-attack the House or its privileges.— The present Petition appeared to him to be a libel ipott both. Lord COCHRANE said, while the Petition was being read, there had been such a noise in the House that he could scarcely bear a word of it. The Chan cellor of the Exchequer had had greatly the advan tage of him, from sitting nearer the Clerk, to hear it so well, that he could pronounce it to be a Jibel on the House and on its privileges. • The ATTORNEY—GENERAL thought the l i House had a right •to expect that the Noble Lord would see the language of the Petitions he undertook to present was not at variance with decorum. He had attended to it, and he did not hesitate to invite the House to judge of its merits; and if the Noble Lord wished it, he was well content that it should be read a second time, that it might be seen it it was what he would now pronounce it to be—a contrived, determined, and deliberate libel on that House. The Petition was then read by the Clerk.—lt set forth, that the House. could not be regarded in any constitutional or rational sense, is the representatives of the people. That when this was the case, the Constitution was subverted. and the state to which they were reduced, who were subject to taxation without representetipo; was that of, slavery. It emu.% donned the policy of the late war, and declared that the power of those whore mad or wicked counsels bad commenced or continued it. ought now to be put an end to, and recommended. resistance by all possible legal means. It set forth that the proceed ings of the House were a mockery, and expressed their disapprobation of the repeated protracted.aad disgusting debates with which it was from time to time occupied. It complained in strong ternsiof the grievances brought on by the present system, and represented the House to be only perfect in the science of raising money from the people, and in laying on the lash of taxation to tholast extremity of human endurance. It called for general Reform, and for a return to annual Patiiainents. Mr. BROUGHAM confessed, that from not hav ing heard the Petition, as the Attorney-General did, when it was first read, be had been prepared, by what had fallen from bins, to expect a very different reading. He (the Attorney-General) had described the Petition to contain nothing throughout but a direct wilful slander on the House, and on its privi leges. Now, in the first place, nine-tenths of it did not refer to the House or to its privileges, but to general subjects of complaint, though, as Reform was its subject, it began and ended with Parliamen. tary Reform. There were different modes of stating ' things. There was a judicious, temperate, and mo derate way of stating grievances, such, as the Attor ney General, the most consummate advocate of the day, would take, if be were now the friend of Par liamentary Reform, and suck as some years ago the public might have bad the benefit of obtaining from his talents. Thee was another mode, which was injudicious, and wai not marked by temper and de corum—one which was irrational, and could injure none but those with whom it originated, and weaken no cause but that which was so unfortunate as to be the subject of its advocacy. He opposed the dot trines contained in this Petition, and lie wished it thus early to be known, that be was an enemy to that which was called universal suffrage, as he was to that which went to the distruction, and not to the reformation of Parliament ; to the overthrow, and not to the amendment of the Constitution, and con sequently to the annihilation of all security fur pro perty. He desired then, that he might not be mixed up with these Petitioners, from whom be totally dif fered. He. was a friend to Reform. He wished those flaws to be corrected which time bed made in our system t and it was because be was. the advocate of Reform, that he opposed the wild, vague, and, it they could possibly be acted upon, pernicious schemes of those who held the opinions contained in this Pe. anion. But the question now before the House was, whether the language of the Petition was so disre-. • spectful that it ought not to be received t He con tended this was not the case, and that, though irra tionally worded, as it only announced a wish to oppose the present system by constitutional means, there were no grounds for rejecting it. The House ought not at any time, but tome especially at a pa tied like the present, to be chary about the Words used by their Petitioners, u to reject Petitions, be cause they contained sdm random charges and un just censures, directed, .against all parties in that House. Mr. CANNING observed, b the defence which the Learned Gentleman had made of the language of the petition now before the Heuse, he bad omit ted to notice the consequence drawn from the state ment of their constitutional objection to the present House of 0111111101114 which, he contended, made it improper to receive the petition. He would admit, that without insulting the Henze that mode cf argu ment might be capable of being maintaioed,whiCh was resorted to by those okho were of ppinion that other theories than' those which govern, or whickhave ever governed this country, ought to form the basis of re presentation. But When they were. told that they were, in.no comititutioaal or rational sense, the repre sentatives of the people ; and wheo,havig said this, the petitioners went on to'assert shit the Constitu tion bad been subverted, this was no longer the lea.. guage of petition ; it was directed Lomas embalm. If we had nnlonger a Constitution remaining, what was the language of the departed Coostimma In , such a ease it justified resistance. The Hemiunglie, and Learned Gentleman would agree .with him in' this, and concurring with him in this instance, why did he not say that he knew it was in the 'ninth of T - • • the Petitioners to restore the subverted Constitution by resistance ? If such language was to IA tolerated. there was an end of the House of Commons, and of the present system of Government. He.sens disposed to throw open wide the doors of that Housz to t!.e complaints of the people—he was content to receive the most insulting petitions, provided they led to no inference that practical resistance lt•4d become neccs. sary, but they ought not to suffer those to be laid on their table as materials for discussion, which con tained the direct and dangerous assertion that the people of this country lived under no constitution.— He therefore felt, that to receive Ote . petiiion now be fore them, would be inconsistent wtth the dignity of that House, and with what was of more importance than the dignity of the House, the maintenance of the true and independent forms of the Constitution. Whether it was true or not that the representation, of the people in that House might he made better, none could have a right to say, t h at the sittings of a body which had existed far centuries was a usurpation, and that they had no title to meet as the representatives of the people. (Hear, hear.) Mr. C. W. WYNNE differed from the last speaker as to the propriety of their receiving the most insulting pens. He was of opinion, that, to in sult, they otTlt not to submit. He wished their doors to be open to the complaints of the people, and he was unwilling to be over nice in criticising the language in which they were ►et forth ; but an in tentional insult ought not to be tolerated. The peti tion censured their debates. The publication of those debates was a breach of the privileges of that House, of which no notice wits taken ; but if petitions foun ded on such publications were to be laid on their table, the House might be involved in endless con tests on the language used in former discussions.— On these grounds, feeling, as he did, that an inten tional insult had been offered to the Houk, he should oppose the motion. Mr. CANNING said in explanation, he had not wished the House to submit to insult. All he meant was, that he should not be disposed very critically to examine the language of petitions, provided the prin ciple on which they were founded was unobjectionable. Mr. BRAND anxiously looked to the language of petitions, and without attending to the proceedings of those demagogues, who laboured to impede the work of Reform rather than to advance it, he always felt sincerely sorry when it beeense necessary to re ject petitions on this subject, from the manner in 'which they were worded. In the House a Member could not assert that the present Members were net the representatives of the people. but he could say of the Members of any former Parliament, that they were not. Members had said in that House that the Constitution was subverted, but did they mean by this to justify resistance ? It was hard that peti. tioners should have their petitions rejected from their being little acquainted with the forms of the House. fireonsidered those who introduced violent language into the petitions, to be the worst enemies of the cause they affected to support. He was fearful, if the present petitions were not suffered to lie on the tsble, that its rejection might deter those moderate friends to Reform from coming forward, who were' sincerely attached to the Constitution. Lord COCHRANE said, none could regret more than he should, the offensive wording of the pe tition, if this should cause it to beerjected, knowing, as he did, and as they all did, that those from whom they were presented, who telt most on the subject, were least capable of entering .into all the nice sub tleties of language. It bad not struck him, as it (lite the Attorney General, that this petition conmined any thing derogatory to the dignity of the House of Commons, such as it ought to be. He moved that ' , the petition should be received, and hoped this would not be opposed from any petty objections to wording of some parts of it. Mr. LAMB considered it to be impossible for them not to sympathise with the Noble Lord in the concern which be felt lest the language of the Peti tion should not be deemed such as to justify them in suffering it to be laid on their table. When the terms in which he spoke of that House in other places were borne in mind,he was sure no one would doubt the sin comity of his regret on this account. The Petition was full of violence, and as he, like his Honourable and Learned Friend, was anxious to make known his sen timents on the subject of Reform thus early in the Session, be would now say, not only that he disap proved of Annual Parliaments, but of every plan or scheme of Reform that had been devised, either lat. terly or in former times. He considered the whole of those he hid seen to be formed on false views sounded on misrepresentetions of the ancient constitutino of the country. Not one of them contained the truth ; not one of them was free from lies and misrepresentations of facts. He however could see nothing in the lan guage of this petition that called upon them to reject it. If the line was to be drawn for the rejection of petitions only where they denied the legislative pdwers of the House, this ought to be received, for here these were distinctl y admitted, and they were called upon to frame a Bill for Reforming the Parliament. The last petition bad almost denied to the House this right, and had called upon them to receive and pass • Some Gentlemen out of doors were ea pre pare and send them a Bill, which they were to piss for their own dissolution and destruction. Was now in some places the popular plan. The use here attempted to be made of the House of Commons, reminded him of the codclact of Setjeaut !Agouti and Some of the old Reformers. After the civil war, these persons who had some knowledge of the forme; of the Constitution, would have a Republic ; and to make this legal, it was proposed to make a King to give his sanction to a Bill which they had it in con templation to prepare and get immediately passed, to do away the title and authority of the King altogether. . Mr. BATHURST co4ended there was no reason to tear the rejecting this Petition would prevent others from being presented, to make known the sentiments of the people on this question. He was decidedly of opinion the House ought not to fear to assert its dig nity, by refusiug to entertain that which could only have. been, mat to insult them, from an apprehension that doing this, they would get a character which they bad never deserved, that of refusing to hear the complaints of the people when properly brought be foo them. . Mr. F. DOUGLAS thought if the House refused, this Petiuon, because it denied that they were in any constitutiOnal or ratiodal sense the reeicesentativse 01 the people e they must make op their mind to reject all the petltioits about to he prnewted'ein the sot* * of Parli4mentaiy Ref( rm. He thought the sent:s*,, of all Petititmers aught to be treated with incloil, teno, and that it their complaints were forwarded in a ctn. stiiution 41 way, they ought to he t cceived, howee. 4 negligently they mieta be wnr:ied. Sir S. ROMILLY intruded to vote `tat ''ir (ion sh..Nuld be recto/v. l , thong.', !,:: .!it.apprtiv lanituage of it• 'I he I-Intise not Zr he v e , &oh in such matters; and he c•,1111 tint conscir r . tiousiy say he thought the Petitini ers had deaired to insult them. He considereclit might he desiralaie to refer the Petitions on the subject of Reform I a c on. 'entree, and lie shoold greatly lament the loss rt 2 , y information that might be :.forded to them fif ' s e sentiments of the prolate. He thought the Right lint;. Gentleman oppc ste ( Cai.niog) went too hr ► supposing that the Petitioriers templ:ated tr tame. lie could not think that they entvrt..:npj,. such views:, IT he woo!4.1 onctie.ftion:thly 5 t , . : House to as s ert it s own c h gn ii y, and do its duty, rej-cting the Vetitio,.. Mr. C. G It7),NT said, whether the meant to insult the 110. 1 , e or not he could n et but when he satti that y sentence cone:tined salt—that it asserted o:ern not to be the R. p! r ! , , n7 tives of the People—that it declared the Coiis!iti; , to be subverted—that it did not appear to b„,, dtawn op carelessly—that no want of lit:rary knot.ledge could he observed in it, when he saw O m i t it had been the object of the Petitioners to insult tl.e Heuse, Wry could have taken no r•iiir se m to accomplish their design, he could h ot no of .er r.,:,, struction on it than that such was really ns ci j c z. It this Petition were received, he thought they scuind not be justified is rejecting any other, however di, respectful or insolent its language. A i'dcsisca desired to hear the Petition read. The SPEAKER said it had been already read twice, and it could not be read to every Member vit, o have been absent at the commencement of tie discussion, without putting a stop to the business the House. The HoNot:name MeNtemt wa3 nat aware that :t had been read a second time. Sir W. GEARY spoke its favour of receie;nr ti:• Petition.—'l•he House divided, when the nunibrs vier% A yes, 4s—Noes, 135—Majority. 87. On re•aduiiision the Clerk of the House was real. ing a similar Petition from another Township in the same County. On the qtiestion that the Petition lie upon the table, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEk observed, that its language was exactly the same 3s that of the preceding, which had just been rejected. The House might form an inference from that boa far those Petitions expressed the genuine sentiment of the people, and whether they wen: not rather at tful slict.tiuns of factious dernagotnes ?—(iirar.l Lord COC HRANE had presented those fet+:i: it because he thought it was his bounden duty as a Men:- bar to do so. He assured the House that there was PIO man more sincerely attached to the Governmet: of the country than he was. It could not be dcitis. however, that abuses did exist, and he trusted tl:/: the House would not cavil at words in the reccrtiint of Petit;ons for their removal, hut would admit them to ascertain the general sense of the people. If PA tions were rejected on trifling grounds, a feeling it irritation would arise, which would require all the means mentioned by the Prir ce Regent in his Sperch to restrain it. .Such irritation ought tea be careilor avoided. He felt Confident that he had not ,t , re more than his duty as a Member, in laying these Pe. titions before that House. If they spoke against t`e manner in which Members were elected, he miwil state an instance which proved the justice of the: complaints. When he first came ii.to Parliamect himself, he was returned for the Borough of Honitns, and the bellman went round to the inhabitants nlthst place, offering £lO lOs. to all those who should ewe in iris favour, to be received at his banker's. He had got all the bills about him at this moment — (Awe.) Could he then be called the choice of the people? He might be punished for what he had done, and he acknowle.lged that he had acted wrot4;ll. He had been impelled by a most foolish !native.— The I act was, that he had come home with a grr deal of Spar i.h money, with which he did fo: key what to do—(Lawerier.) He had heard that aha rough was open, and tee had bargained for the proprietor, who would have returned equ.ny black servant or his great dug—(!fear.) As to tt allusions made to demagogues, he trusted the ti was not far distal f when the House should Ices :ita neither within nor without its walls, he had ever that which was nat. He le.so trusted the Hours would duly consider, before it reject, d the Petoii of the people, and wouid make vet ry proper 41::•• ance for the irritation of their feeiings. Mr. CANNING ailowed, that the Noble Ler had only done the duty t.t A Member in taken; chare of the Petitions. But after the recent decision uf House, was it politic in him to press the reaps:: a Petition, containing the very .ante out giving an opportunity to those, by winos it !..J been drawn up, of malting any alt: r.aiens wd.cs might enable the II arse to receive it, confive•.: l l with its dignity He would advise the Noble lio , L although Le feared his advice would not be receirte. to withdraw the P,tition fur the present. By Jun.' so he would act better by those who had sigrad than if he continued to press it, in its presto: st.u. on the acceptance ut the House. • Lord COCH It NE. notwithstanding the It'^t . lessness of the Right Honourable Gentleman his advice should he Welcome, was diipry:ed to tau It, and would inform the Petitiohers that its lays" WAS such AS could not be received. The Petition was then withdrawn. Lord COCHRAI4F. presented a Peti.ion . f' . 3 l the town of Lm 4 , s, in the. - oish of Asbton-undel-1. 1 " in the County of LancaNier, and one from the '1 og* of Oldham, in the same County, praying for Rele:r and Annual Parliaments. One of these attribru. the present distresses of the country to the War,' r• ~ fuse expendiiure, and the existence of sinecure pl.ico and excited a loud laugh by the,wurds—" .:11 ' could not have happened if the whole pop!? id , l :'. in your Honourable House."—head, and o:dacw :. lie on the Table. Lord COCHRANE then presented a re'l''‘ . 1 from the Town.of Asbton-under-Line, in t! !e AI 'County. The Clerk having begun to real, , • The CHANCELLOR o f t h e EXCHEQt ., r. :asked whether it was not wor d b y wor d t h e ssnit 'i