Star. — London, England, 1821-06-27 00:00:00

bar would not press-his motion t and that if he did' the House would reject it. Mr. F. BUXTON entirely agreed in all that had fallen from the Na')le Marquis opposite, at the same time that he disagreed in every word that had been uttere I by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Maxwell). lie timid sot think with burn that the quadrangular system would he attended with such benefits in this country. But although he could not support the present mo tion from the principles laid down by his Honour able Friend, he should vote for it on ;pounds of local detail. From his pursuits he had been led to know the miser y and ruin attendant upon the system of in ternal regulation pursued in this country in the work houses. He should not vote for this motion in the hopes of a new constitution of society being intro duced, but he hoped to derive from the labours of the Commission some practical hints upon which to "found a new system of regulation for the poor-houses of England.. He understood, from those who had visited New - Lanark, that nowhere were so great a Dumber of children to be seen in the enjoyment of perfect health and spirits. He hoped the great ques tion of workhouses would shortly come before Par liament, for the children reared in those receptacles of misery were invariably squalid and sickly. When that •cfnestion came before them, it would be seen that they had Much to learn, and certainly then Mr. Owen would have much to teach them. Mr. SCARLETT did not think the House would be acting in a dignified or useful manner without having some specific object in appointing a Commis ▪ With regard to the Honourable Member who sp. ke second in the debate (Mr. Dawson), he begged to observe, that he thought he had given to a certain measure a character which it did not deserve. He assure! him that he had only brought forward the Poor Belief Bill from a conviction of the necessity of some measure of the kind. if the Honourable Mem ber had a better to present, he would give his most careful attention to it, and he would not by a side wind asperse it betore it came to be fully diieussed. Mr. H, 1. - IURNEN thought the success of the Plan at New Lanark was ground enough, if not for gene ral imitation, at least for inquiry. Mr. WILBERFORCE took the same view of the questio., that his Honourable Friend near him did_ (Mr. B .xton). Could anybody doubt at all that if Members of that Honourable House, for their un dersundings, principles, and accuracy, would go down to inquire into the effects of the system of Mr. Owen, as they were to be seen in the establishment at Lanark? Could anybody doubt that implicit credit would be given to any report which they might make? Such an inquiry, he was confident, would afford satisfaction, and the Plan might be brought forward at any future period without dan ger rf its being misunderstood. lie was most anxious to take such a course as should guard against mis construction, and prevent public disappointment. Dr. LUSHINGTONI was surprised at the appro bation which the scheme kad met with in Scotland, considering it to be the roust visionary Tian, and the most impracticable system he,ha.: ever met with in the course of his life. The praiseworthy exertions of Mr. Owen hat; made it succeed, on a small scale, With persons under his influence and controul ; but to attempt it on a general scale would, in his opinion, be interly useless. A Noble Earl, who had now de parted this life, had tried a plan somewhat similar, and bad succeeded' in reducing the Poor-rates 75 per cent. but this was effected through the power be possessed over the whole parish, which ensured the co-operation of all the inhabitants with his Lord ship's own exertions. But he was satisfied that it was only where such influence was possessed that the project could succeed. That House had not now to learn from Mr. Owen that it was desirable the poor should suppoit, themselves by their own industry. Ha was delighted with the Plan, which, according to Mr. Owen, went to demonstrate the means by which the pool might be not only enabled to suppert them selves, but reodeted willing to do so. These were undoubtedly objects of great importance. But how were they to be obtained? Why, arrangements were to be made by which the people in these new com munities were to meet at certain periods—were to be fed at certain hours like horses, and to be exercised at stated times. -He perfectly agreed with the Noble Marquis, that such a system was utterly unfit for the people of this country. The present plan he thought a fit celyanion for ape which an Honourable Friend of his had aibmitic to the House last year aghinst the use of machine; y, on the ground that it took from the poor man his employment. Ilis Honourable Friend had opposed machinery to such an extent, that he (Dr. Lushington) had almost expected him to propose that no washerwoman should be allowed the use of a tub, but that all garments should be washed in the rivers, in order that employment might be found for a greater number of washerwomen! Now it was obviously the interest of the country to get its labour performed in the cheapest manner, and he must thereto:roe on this point oppose the motion of Mr. Owen. To improve the murals of the people' was that which might be very desirable; but he was not prepared to approve of Mr. Owen's mode of doing so by the exclusion of all religion. He wished the Plan to go on as it was going on now. good one, the truth, through the medium of the Press, would be ultimately known, and it would be adopted at the time when it could be most conveniently in troduced into our system ; but it certainly was his opinion that that time never would arrive. The Member for Weymouth had thought that the Plan might be advantageously introduced into workhouses. He thought it impracticable to connect the project for cultivating land with workhouses, and he was of Opinion that the less they had to do with workhouses the better. He opposed the motion, considering it beneath the dignity of that House to call for a Com mission to be sent down to inquire into the merits of tuch a project as that of Mr. Owen. - Mr. CANNING wished to explain his reasons for the vote which he was about to give. For Mr. Owen, as an individual highly distinguished for benevolence and virtuous industry, he had the greatest regard ; but he was sorry that his judgment and serious con ideation of Mr. Owen's Plan would not permit him to give them the sanction of his approbation. He bad given Mr. Owen a promise to attend to the ar gumi ents on both sides, a nd th e resu l t h a d pro d uce d an impression unfavourable to that Gentleman's Plan. His first objection then to the Plan was, that it de al/eyed that individuality and amalgamation of cha racter in man, Which more peculiarly belon6ed to the People of this country—(Henn).—A system of , this sort might do very well for a confined society; but it was fallacious to argue, from a particular in stance of success, that its geperal application was practicable. Mr. Owen's people were like one family, coming together and acting together font au acknow lcdged principle. Individuals were never known to come together but from an intelligible principle from that principle which binds together tile mem-I bers of one family, or, in a larger sense, the tenants' of one Gentleman. There should be a head, and his influence should be felt. But what influence—what community of feeling—of fear, or of love, could bring together and govern the nation at large?—(llear). It might produce a forced state of society ; but this close and unnatural connection, leaving aside the consideration arising from the division of parishes, would make the society a theatre for the worst pas sions. He was not a bigot, yet he could not approve a scheme which acknowledged not the Government of Religion. This was the first instance in history of a society being instituted without a Religious Go vernment. He, therefore, thought Parliament ought not to sanction a system of this sort. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by giving his opinion that no good could be done by a Commission ap pointed by the House or the Crown, when it was not yet determined whether the recommendations which the Commissioners would make ought to be car ried into effect or not. Ile should, therefore, vote against the motion. Mr. W. SMITH supported the motion. If the Plan of Mr. Owen was such as had been described, could it be believed that it would be supported, as it had been in Scotland, by Justices of Peace, Princi pals of Universities, and Clergymen of the Esta blished Church of that country ? Could it be be lieved that if Mr. Owen's Plan would be thus sup ported, had it been, as some had described it to be, opposed to all religion ? Sir ISAAC COFFIN said that, twenty years ago, a Scotchman was a rara avis in London, et nigroque sintirima cygno ; but now they were to be found teaching and preaching in every alley, hole, and corner in the city—(A laugh).—Nothing was good ' which did not come from a Scotchman ! and he (Sir Isaac Coffin) thought there was danger that the Saxon blood would soon be lost in the Caledonian— (A laugh).—He was not in love with this Plan because it was Mr. Owen's ; nor did he admire Mr. Owen because he was a Scotchman; and he would, there fore, give his vote against the motion. Lord A. HAMILTON said that the statement that Mr. Owen's system excladed all religion was completely erroneous. The Noble Lord then leferred to various testimonials from respectable persons near Glasgow, in favour of Mr. Owen's Plan; and con cluded by declaring himself in favour of inquiry, without involving himself in any of the Details. Mr.MAXWELL replied. He maintained that the Plan of Mr. Owen did not go to monopolise the human mind in the manner supposed, nor did it go to exclude religion from the community that might be formed. Perceiving, however, the feelings of the House to be against the motion, he would not press it to a division. Mr. BROUGHAM wished to protest against the proposition respecting machinery. He considered this to be a motion for an inquiry into a very long and very laborious experiment, which Mr. Owen had for some time been making. It was in this view that it should have had his (Mr. Brougham's) vote, had the question been pressed to a division. It had been said that Mr. Owen's Plan was conducted without 1 religion. Never was there a more unfounded assertion. Indeed, he had heard it urged, as one of the greatest faults in the Plan, that it had too much religion. The motion was negltived without a division. SLAVE TRADE. Mr. WILBERFORCE, in rising to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, respecting the Slave Trade, began by observing that he felt gra tified in finding himself supported on the subject by the sentiments that pervaded the House. It was, in deed, truly grateful to him, after having devoted so large a portion of his Parliamentary life to the great cause of rescuing the natives of Africa from slavery, to find that in England the great majority of the people were unanimous in support of it. It was, however, natural, that in a country where there were so many different interests, there should be persons who would still desire the continuance of the dis graceful system; and he was therefore glad to find that an Honourable and Learned Friend of his had framed a Bill which stamped the Slave Trade with its true denomination, and made the practice a capi tal felony. Having ourselves got rid of the disgrace of trading in Slaves, we naturally enough sought to prevail with other nations to follow our example. During the war, we were the carriers of the com merce of Europe, and it was then that Africa was first allowed a cessation from those terrible suffer ings with which she had been afflicted for two cen turies before. We then found them not that abject l and degraded race v:e had supposed, but, like ' our selves, susceptible of improvement, and capable of being raised to a high place in civilized society. On the arrival of peace, it was gratifying to observe the zeal which the Noble Marquis opposite had evinced in prevailing on the great Powers to adopt the views of England. They'all united in one sentiment of re probation against the African Slave Trade, and even Spain and Portugal joined in the common cry which humanity had raised against it, and required only a short time to obviate inconveniences to the parties engaged in it, before they should put an end to it al together.* The Honourable Member referred to the treaties which England had entered into with other European Powers for abolishing the Slave Trade; and again, after paying a suitable tribute to the ear nestness with which the Marquis of Londonderry had exerted himself in the cause, complained of the great reluctance which had been shewn by Per tugai to act in accordance with the other Powers.— He next adverted to the mixed Commission esta blished by Spain, England, and the Netherlands, and contended that it had not the effect of putting down the trade in slaves, which was now carried on to an- increased extent, and with a degree of bar barity never exceeded .at any former period. The atrocities now practised went to exhaust the possibi lities of human sufferings on the one hand,. arid of human cruelty on the other—( Hear, ,hear).—He regretted to say, that the Netherlands, a State so closely connected with us, bad not shewn that 'ap parent feeling of -the evil) or that earnest . desire to put en end to it, Netieh this cdunfry had a right to: expect. His Noble Friend (the Marquis of London derry), much to his credit, had endeavoured to over come the flimsy sophistry by which the Government of the Netherlands sought to evade the fulfilment of Treaties; and he was strenuously supported by our Ambassador the Earl of Clancarty, who displayed most laudable feeling on the occasion. Of Spain, he (Mr. Wilbeiforce) was not inclined to say much, yet he could not but believe, notwithstanding the parti- , cular circumstances in which that country was now placed, that she *would be w illing to lend her cor dial co-operation in breaking the fetters of the poor 1 children of Africa l—(Hear,hear).--There were in 1 Spain many men of high and noble minds, and while they hailed the blessings of a free Constitution themselves, they would not lend themselves to per petuate slavery in any part of the world—(Cheers). The obstinacy of Portugal was much to be regretted ; audit could not be forgotten, that when she was act ing upon a principle distinct from the other Powers, his Noble Friend stated, that if she alone persisted in that line of policy against the general concurrence, it might be necessary to adopt some stronger measure than bad been provided by Treaties. When the other Powers were convinced of the reasonableness of the proposition for abolishing the Slave Trade, they must be equally convinced of the reasonableness of enjoin ing acquiescence on the part of Portugal. The time was now come when it was necessary to bring Por tugal to a clear understanding on the point—(Hear, hear).—He felt peculiar gratification in saying that America had acted very differently. Though a State that involved many conflicting interests, yet she was prompt in expressing her condemnation of the Slave Trade, by fixing its true designation upon it—that of piracy—(Hear, hear).—Though in that country cul prits were not often punished with death, yet, so great was the abhorrence of the barbarous traffic in human flesh, that a law passed, ordaining that every Ameri can citizen found engaged in it should "be capitally punished, as in the crime of piracy. It would give him sincere pleasure that we should cultivate more close and intimate feelings of amity with America. They were of one common stock with us, and though differences had arisen between them and us, they were of a nature that might and ought to be forgotten, in the same manner a, those differences that frequently "loose in a private family. There was another nation, the people of which were characterised for a high spirit of honour and chivalry—he meant France; )et he was sorry to add, that that nation had dis appointed us in every respect. France carried on the Slave Trade to a greater extent, and trifled with us to a greater degree respecting it, than any other State in Europe—( Hear, hear I ). He bad fondly thought, that when their own liber ties were placed on a secure basis, the French would have had some regard for the rights of Africans, as men entitled to the same freedom of person and pro perty as themselves; and he had thought, that even the old French Nobility would have returned with new and more favourable opinions on the subject; but in all this he found himself disappointed. When the King of France said he would join with the Prince Regent, cur present Monarch, in putting down the Slave Trade—and when the latter wrote him a letter with his own hand, expressing.his joy at the circum stance, he (Mr. Wilberforce) thought that France then would have taken that course which honour and jus tice demanded—(Hear, hear).—He thought, that when England, which had been represented by Bo naparte as a nation of shopkeepers, had thrown off the disgrace of the Slave Trade, France, proud and chivalrous as she was, would have been the last to take it up—to take up what we had been induced to abandon. Great as he abhorred the enormities of the French Revolution, yet he considered them venial compared with the atrocities of the Slave Tiede; for, compared with the gigantic dimensions of that trade, they sunk into mere trifles. He wished that the higher ranks could but know one half the extent to which the enormities of the Slave Trade were carried. At the time of the French Revolution, atrocities had taken place in the paroxysms of faction, while rival aspirants fretted their short hour away; but now there was a cool, calm, and deliberate system of op pression and cruelty. Sir George Collyer, an Officer equally humane as he was gallant, spoke of barbari ties which were too horrid to contemplate. One in stance he would mention to the House. Sir George, upon one occasion, stopped a French ship, suspect ing she had slaves on board, but finding none, he was rather surprised, having received, as he thought, very accurate information ; and, while on board, his attention s as arrested by a faint moan issuing from a cask, in which, upon examination, be. found two poor human beings nearly expiring from suffocation. This circumstance reminded Sir George Collyer and the sailors who were with him, of some casks they had seen floating the day before, and they were now certain they contained poor wretches who had thus been committed to the waves. However, death, in such cases, might be deemed among the most tender mer cies, compared with the lingering existence which the slaves were doomed to drag on. He was sure that it must shock every man in France who posses sed a liberal mind, if not a humane heart, to find that this system was carried on with the greatest atrocity by a nation remarkable for having arrived at the highest pitch of civilization—(Hear, hear)o— Itmas far more culpable in such a nation, than if it had been carried on by those degraded beings who had so long been habituated to it. Another instance of shocking cruelty had occurred in the same ship, the Rodeur, yet it had not excited the slightest feel : ing of indignation In France. A surgeon employed ' in the establishment.for the blind, at Paris, had, on a recent occasion, stated, in one of his scientific nar ratives, that the slaves on board the Rodeur had their eyes affected from being kept in the hold, in conse quence of which it was found necessary to bring them upou deck, where, by a sort of involuntary impulse, they used to embrace each other, and le.* together into the ocean! (Hear,hear).—ln talking of this, the French surgeon said, with the greatest possible in difference, that they died of nousalgia; what we in this country would call a broken heart. It appeared, as if by a just visitation of PROVIDENCK, that all on board were infected with the disease in the eyes, ex cept one man, and became blind fort a time. While the poor slaves were in this state, cruelties of the most horrible description were inflicted on them, and thirty-nine of them were thrown overboard, under the idea of getting a coMpensation fur the loss of them from the underwriters. The Captain thea pa ttWned to the port from which he had set out, and the framer engaged no attention except in a scientific way. These disgraceful facts were not published, as they ought to be. in a Court of Justice, but in i Iniraticat of a principle of surg . ery—(Hear, hear). The grand difficulty that had.ansen in putting down the Slave Trade was the right of search, and no other effectual mode could be discovered. If France was seriously disposed to give up the abominable traffic, she must give up her objections to the right of search. We asked no more of her than she was authdrised to de mand of us. She was, in her resources, great enough to concede, without apprehending any misconstruc tion upon her motives. The grand measure which could operate most efficaciously in putting an end to that trade, was a mutual right of search to the ships of, all nations. He hoped he should live to see the day when every Power would concur in thinking that odious traffic no less a crime than piracy; and when every cruizer, of every natien, would take a slave-trader as a pirate and an enemy to the human race. America acted nobly r and in a manner worthy of her great and rising character, in making the trading in slaves a capital crime. She had, in con junction with this countty, exerted ber.oll for the abolition of that trade, and made several seizures. The Honourable Gentleman then adverted to the papers recently laid before the House, and particu larly to a statement of Sit Georee Collyer, who said that no less than forty sail, under French • and other colours, were to be seen up the rivers of the Eastern coast of Africa, employed in the trade of slaves.— None of the ship‘of this country were in those parts, and therefore it vas a false assumption that the trade was not carried on to the eytent stated, because it was not known to our cruizers. • He congratulated his country on being the first to redeem itself from that odious traffic. It was now our duty to he active in Abolishing the trade altoz,ether ; and yet it became this country, while exerting herself for the total abo lition of the trade, to be at the same time tolerant towards other nations, because this country herself bad carried on the trade for no less a period than 200 years. The Hon. Gentleman next adverted to the earnestness with which his friend, now no more (he meant Mr. Pitt), used to urge this country to re pair the manifold wrongs she had done, in carrying on that trade, by communicating the ligheand be nefits she enjoyed. The villages, and delightful cot tages, which were constructed along the banks of the rivers in Africa, after the temporary suspension of that trade, were reduced to one barren and universal waste by the ravages and desolations of the late traders. He congratulated his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Londonderry) on the ability and zeal with which he had urged that great question on the Allied Sovereigns ; and he was of opinion,, that not only the cause of humanity would be benefitted by the abolition of that trade, but the commercial greatness and prosperity of this country. The Hon. Gentle man concluded amidst loud cheefing, by moving an Address to his Majesty, recapitulating the principal topics contained in his speech. On the Address being read by the SPEAKER, The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that, in common with the whole House, he had listened with the greatest attention to the admirable speech of his Hon. Friend. He had heard him with particular satisfaction that night, because, while he attempted to rouse the feelings of Foreign Powers, he at the same time reminded the House that this country for a long time indulged in the exercise of diose crimes long 'before our own moral feelings were roused upon the subject. With respect to the A ddress, it certainly contained some hasty reflections upon Foreign Go vernments, to which he 'should not agree, if that Address were written as a political paper, rather than an expression of the moral feelings of an individual. --lie certainly hoped that it would not be misinter preted abroad ; and other Governments ought to feel it as a proof of how this country felt, and not as a reproach upon themselves, but as a stimulus to the moral feelings of their people. He was ready to go along with his Hon. Friend in much that had fallen from him, but at the same time they ought not to keep out of sight the difficulties which obstructed the full attainment of the abolition. He hoped that, b j every exertion, they should be able to remove the traffic in slaves in a still greater degree, yet ha could not look to the final accomplishment of their object until it was held by all countries that slave dealing was a crime. If it was held criminal against all Govern ments,that was the position which would call into action the physical as well as moral energies of the universe. All countries must be common cruizers against one common enemy. And many countries, as far as he was acquainted by their Governments, wanted rather the means than the will to carry this into effect. They had not a sufficient naval power to spread over the various stations, and wherever one flag was absent, the slave dealer would take shelter under it. He did not find the free Governments the most practicable to deal with upon this subject. He fully agreed in the sincerity with which his lion. Friend seemed to think that America acted, in endeavouring to secure the abolition. But he thought the qtrestion with re gard to America hardly stood upon fair ground. She had, it was true, given the name of piracy to any act ' of slave-dealing ; but then it was a sort of Irish pi racy, because no other flag could deal with them as pirates except her own. With respect to the mutual search, there was no Government sc hostile to that arrangement as the American. With regard to Spain, the great difficulty he always had was that of beating into the minds of that Government that we were not acting upon some commercial principles in effecting the abolition of the Slave Trade. They thought that his Honourable Friend, who took so distinguished a part in that great work, was a very good Englishman, who always had his eyes upon the West Indies—(Hear, hear ! and la: , ghter).— He mentioned this, to *hew Lis Hon. Fii2nd that it 'was not a necessary consequence for a Representa tive Government to be an enlightened one. In all the Representative Governments of Spain, France, and America, the principle of the abolition was re cognised, but they all objected to the search upon the ground of national jealousy. The Noble Mar quis then complained of the conduct of Portugal, and said that the convulsions which had taken place in that country, as well as in Spain, might be instru mental in preventing the proper attention to those national affairs which must so greatly, suffer by neg lect. As the Cortes would now be established in Lisbon, as well'as in Rio Janeiro, negotiations with those Governments might hereafter go on with better t .v. % , . I