Star. — London, England, 1822-05-21 00:00:00

— _.~=a , S • . , the Clergy phould become more united, and the mea- , s ure to be 'spbmitted tos&he House was the most ! likely to effect such an object. The Bill would do away with the necessity of Tithe-proctors, on whom he was disposed to lay as heavily as any Gentleman ; and also of Tithe-farmers, whom he ever considered ' a greater nuisance than Proctors. He thought no measure would be productive of much good without the active co-operation of the Irish Gentry. Lord ENNISMORE said, there was no exaction of rent by the landed proprietors in the County which he had the honour to represent. If any exorbitant rents were demanded, they were demanded only by the middle-men. Sir J. NEWPORT said, if the Bill did not go fur ther than it purported it would do very little good. He saw no reason why a commutation might not be effected. He could not give his assent to the asser tion, that tithes caused no distress : to prove they did, he had a letter from a district in Galway, where there was no increase of rent for the last thirty years, and the tenants complained that the tithes amounted to half the proceeds of the lands, and in consequence they could not meet the rents. He firmly believed, unless a permanent and adequate redress was afforded, any half measure would be more fatal to the Esta blishment. The daily recurrence of suits in the Con sistorial Courts was productive of great mischief.— He learned from an Hon. Friend of his, in the House, whom he did not now see, that, of one hundred sum monses which came under his view, the maximum was for nine-pence, and the muumuus three-halfpence, and the costs upon the summonses for three-half pence amounted to fifteen-pence. Such petty objects of legal citation were fraught with innumerable evils. Mr. DALY said, he thought a complete examina tion into the system was absolutely necessary. It would be much better to effect an alteration in the system in toto, than only give a temporary and par tial remedy. As an instance of the abuses arising from the present system, he could state, that in the County which he had the honour to represent, there Mere three or four seneschals, who made, by actions, for sixpences and shillings, £3OO or £4OO a-year. Mr. S. COOPER bore testimony to the numerous evils which sprung from the present system. Mr. GRAT FAN said, the system was intolerable ; but if the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) only gave a leasing power as the remedy, he might as well keep the Bill in his pocket.—The Petition was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. Mr. CAREW presented a Petition from Crsar Colclough, Esq. a lay proprietor of tithes in Ireland to a very great extent, praying an inquiry into the present system of Tithes.—Laid on the table, and or dered to be printed. ALEIIOUSE LICENSING BILL. ;. to to put Mr. BENNET moved that the Order of the Day be read for the second reading of the Alehouse Li censing Bill, for the purpose of postponing it. Mr. BERNAL objected that the Bill, as he now understood, did not apply to the alehouses in the metropolis, but to all those in the country. This was a principle of distinction which he was by no means prepared to admit. Mr. BENNET said, that his Hon. Friend ought to have made himself better acquainted with the sub. ject, before he came to speak upon it. What he said as to the Bill not applying to the alehouses in the metropolis, had no foundation in fact._ There was not an alehouse in the whole kingdom that would not come within its operation ; but separate and dis• tinct iemedies were to be provided for the grievances in town and country. Mr. MONCK thought it impossible for any man not to see that the present system ought to be altered. In the town he represented (Reading) there were 60 public-houses, not one of which was a free house, being all in the hands of brewers.—The Bill was or dered to be read a second time on Friday next. MARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. On the motion of Dr. PHILLIMORE, the House resolved into a Committee on the Bill for amending the Marriage Act. The Hon. and Learned Member then proposed a clause, substituting the words " na tural mother" for " natural and lawful mother," in that part of the Bill relating to consent of guardians. Mr. WETHEItELL opposed the clause, and said that nine-tenths of the Bill appeared to him nothing better than superfluous legislation. The clause, so far from tending to elucidate and define that part of the Bill to which it referred, went rather to create ob scurity and confusion. The Hon. and Learned Mem ber concluded by moving as an Amendment, " That all the words after the word 4 enacted' be left out." Sir J. MACKINTOSH, in the course of some ob servations, said he was not prepared to find any Hon. Member stand up in that House to argue against the necessity of making some alteration in the law as it now stood ; and least of all was he prepared to find such a course taken by his lion. and Learned Friend. For his own part he deprecated the Marriage Act in its present form, as an evil that cried aloud for a remedy. It induced the most active principles of repulsion into the very bosom of social life. The Ho nourable and Learned Member then took a retro spective view of the operations of the Act from 1753 down to 1799, when judgment was given in the case of Liddiard and Horner; and coistentled that, from reasons of the most cogent and pressing description, it ought to be altered. At present, any abandoned villain might avail himself of its provisions to bring ruin and misery on the woman whom, in the first in stance, he had taken for his wife; and by the same provisions, families might be illegitimatized from generation to generation. • Dr. LUSHINGTON admitted that the grievances arising from the law required a remedy ; but he thought that his Hon. and Learned Friend exagge rated the nature and extent of them. Dr. PHILLIMORE said, that the object of the Bill %vas in a great measure misunderstood. The Bill was not to be confined to the marriage of natural chil dren. In the present state of the law all marriages of minors without the consent of parents or guardians were to be for ever made null and void. The mar riage was to be kept in equilibiio, not for one, two, or: three years, but for ever; and it was competent for either party to come forward after any number of years, after having, perhaps, a numerous offspring, aside the marriage. The object of the Bill was certain limits to that indefinite time. It was to a defect In the law, the evil consequences of have been so multiplied within the last 20 There could be no greater violation of justice, ~~ than that personNao ha beim IPoullea for Pam and bad a family,taight come foramed to set aside that marriage founded on a licenses which Was pt( cured by their own perjury. lie hoped the' ommit tee would support the Bill. The CHAIRMAN then rose to put the question the first clause of the Bill. Dr. PHILLIMORE said that, in compliance with the suggestions of several individuals, he would pro pose the addition of some words to render valid mar riages already contracted. Mr. WETHERELL said nothing could be more unjust than to give the Bill a retrospective opera tion. He would object to any clause which would lead to the deprivation of private rights, in a Bill that was meant to be for general purposes and .to operate prospectively. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, that with re spect to the objection of his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Wetherel l) to the retrospective operation of the Bill, he could cite many examples of Statutes to, which the same objection would apply. But did any one ever hear any complaint of those Statutes? There were Statutes of limitation to pecuniary demands of six years standing: there were Statutes of limitation to claims of landed property. Those laws, when they were passed, had a retrospective operation. The man had a claim by the one system under which he lived, and by the next system was restrained from prose cuting that claim. There were provisions in one law against unjust pecuniary demands—as a tailor's bill,' for instance: there were provisions against dormant and stale claims on land: but the sacred rights of a father, of a wife, of a husband, and of innocent chil dren, were left liable to be called in question at any I time. He felt that this defect in our Marriage Law exposed us to the charge made on us by foreigners, who said that we attended to no object that was not connected with pounds, shillings, and pence. He would point out to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman' several Acts which had a retrospective effect: the Marriage Act was passed in 1763; and such was the security of it, that, ten years after, another Bill was brought in and passed, by which he marriages pro hibited by the former Act werelegitim ati zed and made valid. He would call to the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman's recollection the case in 1804, when Lord Hertford brought in a Bill which had the same ef fect. There was no analogy between the contract of marriage and any other contract, under the circum stances which this Bill was intended to provide against; because the marriage became actually void, and the unhappy woman was placed in a situation the most calamitous that a woman in society could be put into. The Marriage Act was originally in tended to provide a remedy against a great many evils; but, like many remedial Acts, it only produced much of the evil it was intended to cure. It became in time a haughty and dominant law, shedding a de structive influence over that structure of society where there was no confusion of orders, but where they were blended and held together, from the foot of the Throne to the last limits of liberal education. The law was made against marriages of affection: it was made for rank and wealth, against virtue and nature. It produced uncertainty, and carried distrust and hostility into the bosoms of families. As soon as the Hon. Member's motion had been disposed of, he should move for the omission of certain words.- Mr. WETHERELL explained on the point which regarded the retrospective laws cited by the Honour able Gentleman who spoke last, contending that they did not apply to the question. Mr. D. GILBERT would state one fact, shewing that in cases of necessity the Legislature had passed laws with a retrospective effect. In cases of deeds and wills, the original mode was to seal and deliver them : about six years - ago, it was found out that these instruments were either signed, or signed and sealed, but not delivered. The Legislature having taken into consideration that property to the amount of several millions had passed in this erroneous way, enact a law rendering all such instruments valid. In a case where the evils was so great the necessity of a re• medy struck the mind of every one—a remedy, even if it was imperfect, ought to be by all means adopted. l The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that he' considered the present law so defective, that, as a moral people, they should endeavour to amend it. The mass of calamity and crime which grew out of , it was of such a nature, that if its career was not cut short, the evil consequences would disseminate them selves through society to an extent that would be the source of a severe reproach to the Legislature of the country. He did not see why individuals who had come into Court to take the benefit of the law should be placed in a worse situation than those who had not begun the remedial process at all. He was for extending the benefit of the law to those whose cases might stand in need of a remedy. The amendment was then put and negatived. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH then moved the omission of several words in the next clause, which, after a few words from Dr. PHILLIMORE, was carried. The other clauses were then agreed to, and the House resumed.—The Report was . ordered to be brought up to-morrow. course . foreign merely an enacting Bill, free from air: s pells, except those immediately connected with the subject of the Act winch it was intended should be reserved. First of all, the Bill now before the House repealed all Acts relating to commerce from the time of Edward 111. when the first law passed for the regulation of our trade with foreign countries, to the time of Charles H. The Acts of the 12th of Charles IL were unr versally looked upon as the Navigation Laws of this country. The repeal of the ancient laws was pro posed to be effected under three heads :—First,.those laws that from the state of our commerce were en tirely unnecessary ; secondly, those inconsistent with the spirit of . the Navigation Laws; and lastly, those which were rendered unnecessary by subsequent Acts. Whatever difference there might be in the details of these measures, there certainly could be but one opt nion amongst all as to the expediency of rendering the law as little subject as possible to doubt. Though these Bills had been now for some time before the country, yet there had been no considerable hostility sbewn against any of them, except against the Bill relating to the export of wool, and the importation of woollen cloths. Some alarm had been felt for the Bills relating to the Acts upon those two points; but with respect to the first, the Acts had been already consolidated by an Act of George 111. and as to the latter, the Act relating to it had been virtually re pealed by a duty imposed on the importation of ool kn Such, however, of the ancient Acts as it was deemed expedient to keep in force, were specifi cally reserved in the several Acts of repeal. The Bight Hon. Gentleman mentioned two cases of ex ception, one of which was, that provision which al lowed the foreign merchant, in disputed cases, %here an appeal was to be had, a Jury composed of half' foreigners. This was a concession made by Edward 111. in confirmation of the Great Charter; and cer tainly with reference to the extension of our corn- Merce, and in order to invite foreign merchants to hold confidence in us, there could not be a measure more characteristic of the wisdom of the reign of that great monarch. The great question here was, whe dser the existing laws required any amendment, and if they did, whether or not the alterations proposed were those most proper to be made. Against the re peal of those ancient laws much had been stated— an alarm was raised—it was said that the great prin ciples of the Navigation Act under which the coun try so long flourished, had been compromised, and that the Bills could not pass without great danger to the country. If it was meant that a system of exclu sion, of severity, and restriction towards foreign countries was the system to be acted on, he did not agree that there was any alarm in the alteration. No doubt, strictly speaking, foreigners had no right to complain of the laws of this country. It was our right to determine for ourselves what should be the extent of our commercial relations with other coun tries, and under what limits we should carry them on. But though the foreigners had no right to com plain of our law, they could certainly retaliate ; they could return severity for severity, restriction for re striction, and exclusion for exclusion. The Legisla ture paid attention to the complaints of foreigners; not because they admitted the least right of interfe rence, but because it was our own interest to leave no ground for any indisposition on the part of foreign countries to carry on relations with us upon the same footing that we proposed to do with them. A free , tr?cle was the most advantageous, if the other Powers of Europe could be brought to concur in it—(Hear). In every view of the subject it was most desirable to attain it, and the necessity for taking steps for that purpose was growing stronger every day. We already felt the severe restrictions of foreign Powers—restric tions which were increasing every day. The mer chants and manufacturers were solicitous for it. AU restrictions upon trade were as grievous to those who laid them on, as upon those who were affected by them. It was the wisest policy, then, to do away with restriction;, so far as was safe and practicable, or at least to shew a disposition to a free trade, and to retrace the steps we have already taken—(Hear). It was true that in a country like this, subjected to an artificial system, every due protection should be given to manufactures. He was not inclined to com promise the interests of manufacturers, but he thought relaxation should be stretched to the utmost verge— (Hear, hear).—The object of the Bill then was to re lax as far as possible; such relaxation was called for by the change of circumstances. If the House would only consider the'difference of situation of this coun try at the present time, to what it had been at the making of the Navigation Act, they would see that some modification of it was now called for. The Navigation Act was passed in the reign of Charles 11. and was directed mainly against the Dutch, with a view to humble their commerce. This was wise at the time, for the Dutch were a great and commer cial people, and our dangerous rivals. But things had altered since. The Dutch were no longer formi dable, and the disadvantages attending our commerce which these necessary restrictions imposed, should be i etnoved as soon as possible. He was not aware how far the shipping interest were disposed to go with him in these plans, but he could assure them that no man was a warmer friend to their best interests than he was, and that they would best consult those inte rests by- concurring in this measure. He set a high value upon the shipping trade of the country, because' lie appreciated its importance. He would go as far as any man in protecting it, but he would not favour it at the expense of other interests. This principle of exclusive protection had been carried rather too far in the case of the shipping interest, and in very many cases most unnecessarily—(Hear, hear). — He felt that the support of the shipping interest was essential to our national predominance. No nation could support a respectable navy if it did not pos sess a flourishing . commerce. But then the prosperity of commerce, on the other hand, depended a good deal on the protection it received from our navy.— Whilst, however, they derived this mutual support from each other, there were cases in which commerce might come in contact with navigation. In such cases, he (Mr. Wallace) would- always prefer the in terests of the latter to the former, for the prosperity of commerce must ever depend on the improved con- shipping—(Hear, Ater).—The Naito.; seemed to look upon the subject in the same prohibiting the Dotch trade * commerce was sacrificed to the interests of the ship. laws were wise for the time in which made, and they seemed to have answered irposes for which they were intended; namely, the suppression of the Dutch commerce.-- It was curious, however, to observe that as.the object came to be attained, the restrictions necessary to it were gradually modified. Since the days of Charles the Second, the prevailing principle in commercial legislation hail'been to relax the rigour of the navi gation laws It was a fact that in that time there had been no less than 300 Acts of Parliament made with that view —(Hear, hear). —Neither were these relaxing Acts confined to any particular tracks of Eu. rope, but extended to every part generally, and to Asia and America. it was clear then that the pri n • ciple of relaxation was not new to our laws. It was also clear that it was not prejudicial to our corn. merce, as the flourishing state of commerce at this day testified. It was clear that-it was not prejudi. cial to the shipping interests, for the prosperity at that too had increased. It was clear that it did not set the interests of the shippers in competition with the welfare of commerce, for our naval power and commerce had gone hand in hand for the last five 'and twenty years. But it was said, the time was not yet come for relaxing the Navigation Act. He could not agree in this. It appeared to him that the time was not only come, but that we ought to have set about relaxing it before. Every nation in Europe was becoming commercial, and they all seemed to feel that they were bound to retaliate our restrictions upon us—(Hear, hear).—France, Holland, Prussia, and Russia were publishing prohibitions against our goods, and the late Tariff of Russia left not a doubt as to the policy which that country meant to adopt towards us in commercial regulations. But did any one suppose that this Tariff would be of so ex cluding a nature, if it was not called for by our re strictions? The conduct of Russia in this particular, however, did not seem to be rightly understood. He said so, because upon a late occasion when the House were asked to impose duties upon Russia tallow, it was said to be in retaliation for the conduct of that Power. But it should not be forgotten, that we were the aggressors in the article of high duties, and that what Russia did was in her own defence. —This country could not complain of the prohibi tions of Russia or any other country, for they did but practice those lessons which we had taught them.— And this furnished an additional reason why we should act upon a more liberal principle, in the hope of inducing other nations to follow our example— (Hear, hear). Having thus stated the general objects of the Bill, he would now proceed with the particu lar relaxations which were intended by it. The Bill divided itself into two parts, the first applying to Eu ropean commerce, the second to the commerce of the other parts of the world. With regard to the first, it was intended to make one general law, applicable to every part of Europe. By the Navigation Act no goods could be brought to this country but in the vessels of that State of which the goods were the growth and produce, or in British ships. Now this was intended to be relaxed so far as to allbw foreign ships to import here from any place such goods as happened to be_ at that. ort (it not being necessary that the goods should be the growth of the country in which the port was situated), provided always that the ship was of, and belonged to that particular port, or otherwise in British bottoms. Now this was a considerable relaxation, but as the trade was not likely to become habitual, it was not one from which any danger might be apprehended. The preference of -English ships would not be at all affected by it, for as it was always possible to obtain a vessel belonging to the country of which the goods were the produce, it was only extending the competition which such ves sels might hitherto have had with British ships in that particular port, a little more widely. He was net aware that any objection would be raised to this part of the plan. The next relaxation was as to particu lar parts of Europe, from ss hich, by the Act of Charles H. certain specified goods could on no account be im ported into this country. It was unnecessary to say that the places alluded to were the ports of the Ne therlands, and the articles thus prohibited included almost the whole of the productions of that country. The object was to cripple the trade of the Dutch, and certainly it was a rational one when the law was made. The reasons, however, which could justify it bad long ceased to exist. The present Bill would put the Netherlands, as to this country, upon the same footing with the other parts of Europe—(Hear). — That this would be a desirable measure was what he (Mr. Wallace) was not only convinced of himself, but he was borne out in thinking so by the evidence ad duced before the Committee on Foreign Trade. It appeared to be the opinion of all the witnesses, that the exclusion of the Dutch trade worked no good for this country, but, on the contrary, tended very much to embarrass the dealings of our merchants to that part of Europe. But upon this particular some alarm seemed so prevail, which, he hoped to spew, was without foundation. Some Gentlemen seemed to think that if the trade to Holland was thrown open, goods might be imported here from the Mediterra nean, through that country, in a mariner prejudicial to the shipping interests of our own. Tito g round of this alarm was the mildness of the Dutch quarantine laws, which were considerably less severe than those of this country. Now, before he proceeded to _hew that this could not haNien, lie meant to say a word upon the quarantine laws. He was clearly of opi nion that our quarantine laws might be a good deal relaxed. Surely there could be no danger in bringing them to the same state as those of Holland, for what was safe there would be safe here also--(Hear,kcar). But to the importation from the Meditertanert.i. By the 45th Geo.III. cap. 3, an Act made for regulating the Quarantine Duties on all imported goods, a power was given the King and Privy Council to exempt from the operation of those duties such ports or places as they thought fit. In consequence of this an Order in Council was made in 1805, by which all ports and places whatever were made subject to the operations of the Act, except certain ports in the Mediterraneaa excepted by name. These ports were the only excep tions made, and therefore, should the trade to Holland be thrown open, the ports in that country would be in no better condition as to the quarantine duties than . any other whatever. The alarm then was groundless, as no particular advantages could be &ind by im- tO set t to put stemed which years. . . . • % . . , • . I . • . . , , its • • I • l a kw' pulled foe pars,. nity tolsabillibw obwrvations. lia atm ise. & l ee of the 24)0 come forsterd to set aside fore the House hustled, with several others,to' don Act seemed to m a licenses which was No- , carry into effect a proposition which he had the hp- light ; for by prohi Lry. lie hoPedthetommit. flour to submit at the chic of the last Session, foe generally was sacri ill. question on commerce, 1 simplifying and amending the law relating to foreign ping. These laws rose to put the and extending and Improving our inter , they were made, a 11 1 course with foreign countries._ The - present Bill was all the purposes . . ' A. -- vlgr' - ~-~r MANSLAUGHTER BILL. Mr. BENNET brought up the Report of the Man slaughter Bill. Mr. BROUGHAM said there was one part of the Bill which had a very important tendency, for it went to remedy a defect in our criminal laws that had long sinned against the canons of English juris prudence. According to the practice in courts of law, it too often happened that the severity of the ' punishment exceeded the degree of offence, while in other cases an inadequate punishment was awarded where the offenders ought to have been treated with proportionate rigour. He held it as a maxim, that all punishment ought to be barely commensurate with the offence; and he could not imagine a greater misfortune than that Judges, in the exercise of an un sound discretion, should attach penalties in the in verse ratio to that which the nature of the offences called for. There was nothing more calculated than such a course to bring into contempt that which, under all circumstances of popular agitation, was wont to be respected in this country—the admini stration of justice. The several Amendments were agreed to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. NAVIGATION BILL.* On the motion that the Howe do resolve itself into a Committee on the Navigation*Bill: ' • Mr. WALLACE said he would take that opportu• 1 1. 1 '1 -