Star. — London, England, 1822-04-04 00:00:00

• • • • • with the expense or growing it in other eodritries. To countervailing .duties of this 'description there were no limits, and they hunt be highly &judicial to the agricultural interest. He conceived that there was no principle More self-eiident than this—that there was no such thing as a remunerating price for growing corn in any country. If we were to cultivate our best lands, there would be no heed - of counter vailing duties, for we shoUld . be'an exporting instead of an importing country; but in the progress of so ciety. the increase of population rendered it necessary for vs to till bad lands, which could not be done without incurring great expense. Of this h&was quite ' certain. that it would be destructive of the best inte rests ct the country to adopt any such system of countervailing duties as that recommended by the former Report. With . respect to the Committee of • this rear. he went into it with a disposition to af cvery possible relief to the farmer. All he re cd was, that there should be an approach made to th.-ie principles upon which he thought the agri •cnl:::rrl interest could he best protected; but though tie Report stated that the price, which was now low, might he lower, still it held forth no hopes to the country, further than what was to be found in the re commendation for adopting a better system. But what was that system ? It was the very same that he deprecated—the system of countervailing duties. This, he maintaiued, would destroy all the benefits arising from the commerce of the country. With respect to the West Indies, he could by no means azree with his Honourable Friend the Member for Essex, that they suffered in consequence of the alter ation •in the currency. In that part of our Empire over-production and the want of a market was also the cause of the evil. The corn rower here he con sidered entitled to protection to the amount of the . taxes he was compelled to bear. But whatever tem eorary•measures might be resorted to, he was of opi nion that it was the duty of that House co neglect no o i rportunity of returning to sound principles. Mr. BENNET, though be agreed with many of the ideas thrown out by the Honourable Member for Pottatlington, could not admit that taxation, aggra vated as its weight was by the restoration of the cur rency, had little or nothing to do with the causes of the present distress. In 1792, the price of wheat was about the same as it was at present, when the taxes, at the very outside, including the expense of collec tion, did not exceed £19,000,000. Then, nobody heard anything but exultation at the wealth of the country—the 3 per Cents. were nearly at par—every' Gentleman received his rept, and but one sentiment prevailed everywhere, that the country had never been so rich before. ny was there this difference? Because then the taxes amounted to but £19,000,000; wrw their amount was E. 56,000,000, which was taken out of the produce and industry of the country.— Now, looking at the situation of the country, they found that a people, decidedly the most industrious in the world, possessing a soil not the most fertile, but a fair sample, and a climate not the best, but one of the best in the temperate zone, were in such a state, that the cry of distress was heard from all classes. It was said that superabundant produce was the cause of the evil. .Bot it was not only a super abundance of corn, but of everything else. The trees grew too fist, industry was too active, and wherever they looked, it was seen that such were the demands made by the Crown, by the Church, and by the Poor -rates, that, these satisfied, little or no thing remained for the landlord or cultivator. It was quite true that the country might so go on. It might be made the same as India, to which state he bad no doubt we were now approaching. Proprietor might be driven off after proprietor, Gentleman after Gentleman, and Nobleman after Nobleman, till, us the end, the whole of the soil would be claimed by the GovernmEnt, the Church, and the Poor-rates.— Could any man look at what had occurred within the last three or four years. without perceiving that the seeds of such a revolution had been sown by the , measures inflicted on the country. The lion. Mem ber for Portarlington had said, that distress could not arise from the change in the currency, the whole erclense of which to the occupiers of land did not exceed £2,500,000. But those various circumstances ought to be taken into consideration which had been ably pointed out by the Hon. Member for Essex, and then it would be seen the pressure it occasioned was most serious. He knew of a family who, a few years ago, was in the receipt of £6OOO or £BOOO per an num; that family now, from the changes which• had occurred, was reduced to live on 1:1'200, without any extravagance or misconduct on their part. He was glad that the finances of the country were taken from the Jews' corner and the Alley speculators by the measure adopted in 1818. lie thanked GOD that that system had been given tip, and there was no wish to embat k in it again. It was, however, impossible for him not to call for some arrangement that would give the country the benefit of a great reduction of taxes. It was quite a joke to hope for relief from any other source, and he could hardly find words to ex press his contempt for the opinions of those who dif fered from him on this point, and who believed that there was any way of saving the property that re mained in the country, but by keeping the hand of the Tax-gatherer out of the pockets of the People. When this had been done as far as it could be done; when they had reached the lowest point by doing away that juggle, the Sinking Fundwhen taxes had been repealed to that amount—if this would not do, he would say the first creditor in the country must compound, and he would not see the Gentlemen of the country robbed of their estates, and havock made of the farmers' property, without calling for such a composition. Though the assertion was a bold one, he had no doubt that he should live to see the day When this would be proposed, and when the Noble Lord opposite and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, stn some plea of expediency, would stand up in that House as the advocates of such a measure. This, he wished it to be borne in mind, was that which he would only recommend in the last extremity. He should deserve to be considered void of common ho nesty, if he were not first to recommend that every practicable step should be taken to avoid that great, but, as he feared it would prove, inevitable calamity, by strictly paying the interest to the last shilling.— But when this could be done no longer, they must men rest content with paying as far as they could go, and the creditor must be satisfied with getting a portion of his debt ) which portion might be endan •,:ered by further delay. The present Report seemed Si him only to suggest plan for raising the•price of • .:.1 .1 4 • . . • ledrii, NONA tifitoiciing out to the-tOtitsiri such a prospect of * relief as °welt to be afforded. The Marquis LoligoNDEli la felt it mis s:try to offer a few remarks after what had occurred in tilf tonne of the debate, but more especially after what had fpHen from-the Hon. Member for Shrews bury. He did not know how it might strike the House, but he had heard nothing this evening to con vinee him that it wouldpot have been better to reserve the Object for discussion .when the attention of the' House might be directed to some more practical mea sure than had been suggested in this conversation.— He would put it to the House whether the Hon. Gen tlemen opposite, if their sentiments were such as they had avowed, had not lost much precious time since the opening of the Session, in which they might have submitted some measure to the House, founded on the reasoning which they had just heard ? It was sin gular that course had not been taken which the Hon. Member for Essex was disposed to favour, and which it seemed probable might have been supported by the Hon. Member for Coventry ; for, although he believed him to have been one of its ardent support ers at the time it passed, he had ever since seemed to have misgivings on the subject, and anxious to atone for the part he had taken, by censuring the measure on every occasion. He thought the Hon. Member for Essex ought not to have contented himself with complaining of the measure of 1819 as be had done that night. Though he (the Marquis of Londonderry) was.prepared in every possible point of view to up hold this Bill, with the sentiments entertained by that Hon. Gentleman, he should rather have brought for ward some practical measure. He ought not to have endeavoured to make the country dissatified with its situation, but should rather have endeavoured to pre vail on Parliament to repeal that Act which he thought so inj urious to the best interests of the coun try. He co uld now understand the Cootie pursued by the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury. He could not before understand why it was thought de sirable that, with imperfect views, they should enter into the discussion of a subject which came before them in no practical shape. But he could now see the object of the Hon. Member for . Shrewsbury, and he must enter his most solemn - protest against the purpose which he had in view ; for, if he understood him right, he wished to sound the public mindahrough the channel of the distresses of the agricultural classes, in order to ascertain if. they were disposed to favour that most flagrant. deviation from sound policy as well as floor common honesty--a breach of faith towards the public creditor—(Hear; hea:o— a British House of Commons eanoiion. such a measure, it would relieve no class in the community, but it would overwhelm all classes with ruin. Were it possible for them to be-dishonest and base enough to listen to a project.of National Bankruptcy, the re sult most be most calamitous. -If they could adopt the idea of abandoning the Sinking. Fund to repeal 'taxes to that amount, it would prove as injurious as unjust, and the faith of the nation would be sacrificed without relieving the existing distress. To ascertain this it was not necessary to wait for the consequences 'of such an experiment. Every man at all acquainted with the subject knew that, were this done, it could afford no essential relief—it would be but as a drop of water in the sea—(Hear, hear): —Nay, he would go further and say, that if the whole weight of our taxes could by possibility be removed—as well tbose which were necessary to support our establishments, as those which were demanded to enable the country to fulfil i.s engagements—if all *the taxes could at , once be swept away, that degree of relief would not be afforded that no distress should be felt—(Hear, hear).—This was not the first time that the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury had attacked the Government of the country—not the present Administration, but the Government generally, by imputing to them all the distresses that were the subject of complaint, by making them answerable for all the burdens thrown on the country by the late war, and for events long since passed by, over which they could have no con troul. That Hon. Gentleman might take a lesson from his Friend near him, the Member for Portar lington, who had shewn how small a portion of that distress now complained of had been thrown on the suffering individuals by taxation. Any man, who took a rational view of this subject, must know that he was attempting to mislead the Public when he represented that the existing distress could be removed by any remission of taxation. He must take this opportunity, alter what had been advanced, of stating what he knew the feelings of the country to be on this subject. He would never believe, and he thought he knew its temper well, that the country, under any degree of suffering, would so far forget itself, as to favour in justice. He would not believe, that under any cir cumstances they would be disposed to break faithr with the public creditor. The security which tie Hon. Gentleman professed to offer, in the first in stance, by not calling on the public creditor to com pound, till the effect t.f reducing taxes to the amount of the Sinking Fund had been tried, was no security at all. They would give, by taking such a course, `only a brief delay; for the certain consequences of such a step were sufficiently known. The distress was caused by the distress of the seasons, and the markets; and therefore it was obvious could not be cured by the remission of taxation, even though that were pushed to the length of national bankruptcy. On this point there could be no doubt; for if a Par liament could be found so degenerate, and a people so destitute of honour and common honesty, as not to start at the idea of such an abandonment of prin ciple, the most sordid calculation would forbid the adoption of Such a measure ; as the want of protec tion for all the great interests of the nation, which must be felt in that case, would make it worse than useless, and instead of removing the evil it woald only have the effect of largely aggravating that digress, which"it was vainly proposed by such means to re rmedy. And here, when they heard so much of the distress of the country, they must give him leave to say, that the agriculturists were the only class in the community who suffered. The manufacture's of the country were in a state of great activity of exertion, and a great increase of their social comforts had taken place, which were likely to continue. The comm?lce of the country was Hauridring, and ill every part the utmost activity was to be remarked. He should re peat it, the only, body of men now offering under the pressure of distress Was the agricultural part of the community, and their situation was to be traced to the course of the seasons and the consequent state of the markets. Though abundance was desirable, • 4 , .134e:1 ... • I *aid a eirtaid Paid, it oetueseneci oval like those gpitr, fek. From extensive competition the markets declined, and the price pf coin shaken, that *of cveiy 'Other article of .agricUltur4 produce must totter. Whatever was the situation of the agricul tural classes, it was not td be supposed there were no indications of prosperity. He should rather say, that the country was generally in a prosperous state. — This was not the time to enter at large into the sub ject; but when every country.in Europe complained of the same distress which 'afflicted the agricultural classes in England, and when the distress extended in an equal, if not in a superior degree, to Amei ica, where it could not be imputed to exce,sive taxation, it could not be maintained that the evil was caused by the amount of our taxes. Such being the circum stances of the case, the House might safely .go to its adjournment without any apprehension that the opi nions expressed by the Hon, Member for Shrewsbury, on the subject of national faith, would find any fa vour out of doors. He believed it to be so well un derstood by the Public, that it was known a national bankruptcy must he as fatal to the interests of those for whose benefit it might be intended, as to those of the parties at,whoseexpense it sluiuld be proposed to be made—(Hear).—To this, every feeling, as well of policy as of morality, was opposed; and, in this coun try, no principle was held more sacred than that which bound them to do justice by those to whom the coun try was indebted—(Hear, hear). • - • Mr. BENNET, in explanation, said he was far from wishing to defraud the public creditor, but he consi dered the nation's faith to have been violated by the Acti of 1797 and 1819. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had under stood the lion. Gentleman to say he would repeal taxes to the amount. of the Sinking Fund, and this not being sufficient, he would go further, and pay the creditor.so far as he could with due regard to his interest, acting as judge in his own case. Mr. ELLICE explained 'the view he had taken of the measure which he had been described to support. Mr. RICARDO said he had been spoken of as a great friend to taxes. He was an enemy to them wherever they could be avoided with. justice, as he trusted he had proved ever since Ifehad been a Mem ber of that House. • Mr..PEEL-remarked that the subject could not be gone fully into now.; and, as the imperfect discussion of it would do no good, and might do much injury, he would say very little on this occasion. He prin. cipally rose that he might not for a moment be sup posed to acquiesce in the opinions expressed against the Act of 1,819. The distress of the agricultural holly, he would contend,.it was impossible could ari,e from the cause which had been assigned. It was but fair to look at the situation of other countries, and, when it was seen that the same distress existed there under other circumstances which was felt here, it was too much to conclude that the peculiar circumstances of this country were the necessary causes of the evil. He would ask, was it not notorious that equal distress was complained of in Flanders and in Switzerland ? 1 In the latter country, it was so great that it had been in some cases impossible for the land-owners to par.', chase the necessary implements to till the ground.— ' Here then was proof that the distress now complained of might spring from other causes than those which had been assigned to it. On the subject of the Act of 1819, several prophecies had been advanced. It had been said that a resumption of cash payments could not be effected ; then it had been prophesied that the Revenue must fail if the attempt were made. It was supposed to have been proved that the same taxes could not be levied if the currency were restor ed, which were at that time paid in paper. But these predictions had been proved false, for the resumption to cash payments had been effected, and the Revenue, instead of falling off, had largely increased. All be desired was, that the merits of that Act should not be tried by the pressure complained of by a particular class or a particular interest, but by its general ope ration on the great interests of the country. He wished the n to look at the state of the manufacturing classes, at the reduction of the Moors' Rates in the manufac turing districts, at the comforts which all the manu facturers now enjoyed, and at the tranquillity which prevailed in all the manufacturing towns. He wished the House, to look at the flourishing state of our com merce generally. The distress of the agricultural body was but a.partial feature, and that distress he could not admit to have been caused by the change in the currency. He was sorry that he had been led to say even the few words he had now offered, and had only to call on the House to suspend their judg ment on this case, till it could be discussed with that attention which its importance deserved. Mr. CALCItAFT argued, that the comparative comfort of the manufacturing classes arose partly_ from their exemption from taxation, as from the de pressed state of agriculture the corn-grower was un able to charge the consumer with taxes which at tached to its production. The idea of advancing a million of money to purchase corn would not relieve the landed interest, as the price of the corn to be pur chased, that which WAS fit to be warehoused, was al ready sufficiently high. It was that which was da maged which was most in the way. If the recom mendations of this Report were carried into effect, which he did not believe they ever would be, or any part of them, he did not think they would afford the agricultural classes relief. The Noble Marquis had said not only that the remission of taxes to the amount of 5,000,000!. would afford no relief, but he had said if the whole 56,000,0001. now paid by the country were swept away, it would yield no relief to either landlord or tenant. This he considered a most ex traordinary proposition. The quantity of produce on hand was at present so great that the price could not be raised. What then was wanted ? Lowering of rents—relief from tithes—reduction of poors' - - rates—alteration of the price of labour—and lastly, a proportionate reduction of taxation—(Hear, hear). These things were necessary ; but would any man tell him that it was necessary to lower rent, and yet declare that a reduction of taxes would afford no re lief ?—He was decidedly of opinion that policy, as well as justice, &mandril that the public Lath should be preserved inviolate; that to fail in this would be most unwise, as well as most dishonest, and the con sequences must be in the end most ruinous for the country. But, concurring as he did with what had fallen from the Noble Li'ord on this subject, he begged that he might not be supposed to agree that a remis sion of taxation could afford no relief. For the He pouf of all the papers ever sent forth from a Com- ''k r 7•7: 44 ' • . •.... .• mittee, iie.thrtnght'a Mns — r Sloppoinitig• 14...r . at to defeat the jtt A t e* ect at i ons of the landed iiitetett it ya , .sed over the ittlijett oX uttatiod; . which hid beeti pressed on the attent on of e the Committee in almost all the lietitionS; and; insteaa of .mahiug A Report likethis, he thought it wottld have been better to havi couldb b e i g d ia n n i c er ed. fairly e told t A l r t (le ui s irt! o r rc i t s t o ha N t meant to contend thou theremissints of taxes would afford no relief. Ito only maintained that if it were possible the country could exist :IS a country, all the taxes being swept away, the present distress would not he remover]. The absurdity r,f snppositig that it !tould be ~o temoved had been forcibly, pointed out by the - I.lon. Member for l i ortarlingttin, by calcitlating the amount of the InOens thrown on the landed in-. term. The Whole of the taxes did not come out et the rental of the country, but were levied on every 'description of income. Were t herr the taites done away, distress like the present, which, sprung from other causes, might remain. Mr. 11. GURNEY conresi led that thi distress or pecuniary embtrrassment of the agricultural interest had been created by the resumption of cash payments; anti paid); by the large importationsfromireland• The Petition was then ordered to be printed: • MISCELLANEOUS. Mr. WYNN obtained leave to bring in a BM to regtdate the Elections for the County of York: The Right HOnourable Gen tleman stated the object of the Bill to he, that there should be two Members for the West, and one fur the Bast and North Ridings respectively.—The Bill was afterwards brought in, read a first, and ordered to he read a second time on the 17th: On the motion of Dr. Pintrimocr, the Marriage Act Amend.: ment Bill was read a second tune , and committed for the 19th. The llouse then went into a Committee, pro, orma, on the Royal Burghs Account Lill , when the Report was ordered to be taken into further consideration on the t!Gth. The Summary Proteedings .11111 went through a Committee; and was ordered to he read a third time on the 22d. The Malt Duties (Ireland) Repeal 11:11 was read a second time, and committed fur the 17:h. The other Orders were then disposel of, and at Nine o'Clock the ',louse adjourned to Wednesda y , the 17th of April. OFFICX.OF COMMON SERJEANT. Yesterday a very numerous Meeting of the Ment bets of the Court of Common Council took place IR the Exchequer-chamber, in Guildhall, for the pur pose of receiving and acting upon a communication made to Mr. OLDHAM upon the subject of Mr. Des- MAN'S intention to stand candidate for the situation of Common Sojeant, about to become vacant by the appointment of Mr. K xow LYS to the office of Recorder. It had been determined at a Meeting held preYi.. ously by several of the - most popular Members of the Court assembled in the Exchequer-chamber, that, ES Mr. DENNIA N had on a former.occasion expressed his teadine,s, in the event of a vacancy, to accept the office of Common Serjeant, an application should be made to him to ascertain whether he was willing, now that the emergency existed, that his ftiends should exert their influet,ce to secure his appointment. The application was drawn up with the consent of all sembled, and transmitted to Mr. DENMAN, at War. wick, who immediately wrote an an,wer to Mr. OLD. HAM, requesting that that Gentleman would inform the Meeting of his readiness to accept of their kind exertions on the approaching canvas, and of his high sense of the honour intended him by his friends. Mr. SLADE was called to the Chair. He stated the foregoing facts to the Meeting, and observed that the object of electing Mr. Denman was, that the. Com mon Serjeant might be qualified to act in every re-. spect for the general good of the City of London. Of the talents and integrity of Mr. Denman the whole country was aware, and the City must derive great advantages from the set vices of such a man, particu larly as he was not at all likely to mix up political prepossessions and antipathies with his judgment upon the rights and privileges of his Majesty's subjects. • Mr. OLDHAM then read the communication made to him by Mr. Denman, which stated what we have. before mentioned, and enclosed - a circular, copies of which were ordered to be sent to the Members of the Court, in which the election lies. lie trusted to the character of Mr. De.nman as a sound lawyer for the success of the efforts of•his friends, and deprecated all idea - of making the question a party one. In the desultory conversation which then arose, it was objected, that the Common S2rjeant should be perfectly well acquainted whit-the municipal law, as the opinion. of that officer was decisive upon many points, which, on sessional occasions, mn,t nece?sarily be submitted to him ; and that Mr. Denman, from the nature of his professional practice, could not be . supposed to be well versed in questions exclusively confined to the city of London. It was said, in reply. to. this objection, that as it' happened to be the 'duty of the Recorder to sit upon ail occasions on which the municipal jaw of the city of London.was to be referred to, and the Common Serjeant had duties of a different kind, and for the most part performable by practitioners in the crimi aid Courts to perform, the difficulty 'at once vanished; that at all events, ilcircumstanees should arise which might render it necessary for.a Common Sitjeant to act as a substitute tot the Recorder, in cases of the description alluded to, neither much study nor much experience would bertecessary to such a man as Mr. Denman, to qualify him for a situation to which' the late Recorder had attained. • • The objection was not repeated,.and, the room was unanimous in favour of a pi oposition by Mr, Hurt- COMBE, that the Meeting should use all their inibence to secure the return-of Mr. Deamix, whose Circular was immediately ordered to be printed. • It was understood, in the early part of yesterday, that Mr.. BoLLarrir. was. ti ray°. no' other rival in his canvass fOr the office of Common Ser jeAnt ; but the notices distributed by tdr. Alta oiN, declaring that Gentleman to be a candidate, is the advanced part of the day, contradicted that succulent; and the friends of the three candidates are actively employed. It seems that immediately before the appointment separated. The election is to he Jecided by ballot is the Court of Common Council on the 21st inst. . _ . . . .. • 41. ip •P• • of Mr. AnABIN to the office of Deputy Cot;imon Ser. jeAnt, an appointtnent made in consequence of the in firmities of the Recorder and Common Serjcant, ap plication was made to Mr. HOLLAND to accept t!:e situation. A refusal was the consequence.; but Mr: Flowiso advised Mr. 18.1131 N, it was said, to take upon him the duties of the situation, as it was, oEc on . sequence to him (Mr. AttAatN) to look f0mar 4 4, 40 . that of Common Setjeant. After a vote of thanks to Mr. SLADE, the Meetin g 1 1 r .