Star. — London, England, 1808-05-20 00:00:00

I I I PARLIAMENT:ART PROCEEDINGS. urged. Lord HOLLAND could not presume to handle such an intricate question with the professional pre cision and accuracy of a lawyer. But the Bill before the House was liable to objections, which every No ble Lord must observe and feel who understood and valued the constitution. What could be more uncon stitutional and alarming than the language and the grounds set forth in the preamble of the Bill ? It had been found convenient to amend the law with regard to the course of indictments and informations in cer tain cases relating to the public revenue, therefilre it is expedient to extend the same to other cases. What, because for the security and better collection of the revenue it has been found necessary to take measures for preventing smuggling, must the same measures be applied to other cases ? His Lordship strongly op posed the farther progress of the Bill. Lord ELLENBOROUGH would not censure the zeal and activity with which the two Noble Lords watched over the Constitution • but he Inuit at the same time wish, that their zeal and activity would ive allowed them to attend more minutely to the usestion under discussion. They would then find it was not necessary, particularly in eases of misdemeanour, that the person to be tried should be present in Court. Nay, the great majority of cases was the other way ; and there was one memorable HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY t 9. case of late years, where the person to be tried thought Mr. Clarke continued in reply in the Roxburgh Appeal, and is proper to expatriate himself before the day of trial had to hr i nil hl-r heard to-morrow. arrived. This shewed the necessity of the present Lcrd no yen N I[ool the oaths and his seat. The Scots Judges Reversion Bill, and sev , ral Private Bills , were measure, The Noble Earl says the oath taken by the brought uptrom the Commons, and read a first time. Jury presumes the prisoner is at the Bar. It is so in CLANDESTINE MARRIAGES. trials for felony. But is not the Attorney General The Bishop of EXETER moved the seccad reading of the Bill sworn on entering into office, as well as the Juryman, for rendering marriages valid which bed been soh mnized in cep. who is bound likewise by his oath as long as he re tain chinches and chapels, without a publication of the banns. The LORD CHANCELLOR could not om it this occasion of mains impanneled. expressing his regret at the frequent introduction of tills of this Lord ERSKINE could not allow the principle description, contained in the preamble Of the Bill; it was hostile The Bishop of EXETER acquiesced in thejnstness of the Ne.ble to the liberty of the subject, and incompatible with and Learned Lord's °burs ation, and hoped that the introduction of such Bills would cease. the spirit of the Constitution. As little wouiii he al- Lord LAUDERDALE considered the Bill asof very great im- low that ordinary Magistrates and Justices of the portance, inasmuch as it skewed the numerous inconveniences that Peace should undertake to act under this Bill in all arose from the Marriage Act. As the Noble and Learned Lord cases. They might indeed be competent to act in seemed resolved to turn his attention to these inconveniencies, he ! cases of battery, riot, &c. but where matter of libel, would perhaps discover how far it might be expedient to repeal i the Marriage Act, or so far to new mod el its p rovisions as to ; DT such more intricate points were to be judged of , he prevent the necessity of such frequent suspensions of it. I should be sorry to see them interfere. These, and lord HOLLAND concurred in this opinion. He wished even : many other objections he entertained against the Bill, the - Legislature would take a more wide and liberalview of the ; and they were of too powerful a nature to permit his Marriage Act, and some other Acts, such as the Corporation and ; Test Acts, which proved such hardships to so many l ar g e descrip- assenting to it. tions of his Majesty's subjects. Surely that Act could not be prat- i The LORD* CHANCELLOR said, he had at tically wise and useful which justified a recurrence to so many suss . tended to all the arguments of the Noble Lords, and pensions of it. he LORD CHANCELLOR said he must have been grossly ; he was still persuaded that there was enough good in 1 misunderstood, if it was supposed he could entertain any inten- 'the Bill to send it to a Committee , in which sta g e al tion of moving the repeal of any of these Acts • on the contrary, terations might be suggested and ado p ted, if neces an occasion was likely soon to occur when he should declare his : sary. With respect to the general principle of the opinion of the necessity of retaining them. i Bill, it would greatly aid the revenue laws , and con- Lord REDESDALE would never sit silent and hear the decla-. rations that were made by some Noble Lords. As he deep l y and i se quently prove of public utility. sincerely revered the Marriage Act, and as he felt the great um- i Earl STANHOPE rose to reply to the observa portance of a strict observance of it, so should he always be ready tions of a Noble and Learned Lord. The Noble and to raise his voice against the opinion of those to whom nothing in Learned Lord had made assertions which he, with the Constitution appeared sacred, and who avowed the design a . i proposing the repeal of the Marriage Act , an d other Acts equally . out being a Lawyer, would contradict. He w ould essential to the safety of the State, and to the well being and peace I cite instances likely to choak the Noble and Learned of the Community. Those who harbour such designs, could not I Lords, and they could not say amen to such instan mean well tu their country. ! ces, because amen would stick in their throats. The Lord STANHOPE called to order. He felt much respect for . Noble the Noble and Learned Lord, but he never w ould allow him or and Learned Lord ascribed a solemn it y to pro any Noble Lord to impute motives to Noble Lords as influencing 1 ceedings by information, and relied much upon the the opinions they delivered in that House. ;honesty and justice of. Lawyers. In some instances Lerd REDESDALE did not conceive himself to be disorderly. he would prow them scoundrels and also fools. The He did net think that any Noble Lord, without moving for the 1 dictums of lawyers could not be re li ed on. In the repeal of all Act of the I .egislature, had a right to enter into ar- 1 patientspatients r, that treated it with disrespect. I reign of Charles the First, the King asked one of his Lord LAUDERDALE called the Noble and Learned Lord to • lawyers, if this money could not be taken by the order, and reprobated the narrowness and illiberality of his I Crown ? The lawyers told him, the King might take opinions, which were now held odious in every part of the coup- in cases or ... necessi try, and which he as certain would prove as mischievous as they l it ty. So far they behaved like were odious. w scoundrels. In the reign of Charles 11. a J ud g e Lord ELLENBOROUGH c-mended, that his Noble and maintained that no man could write or use arguments Learned Friend was strictly in order, his observations grew out of against the Government, unless by consent of the the Bill before the House. Government. In this the judge had behaved like a After some further explanations between the Loan CHANCEL.. fool con- Los, Lord REDESD A LE, and Lord HOLLA ND , t he Bill was read a 1., when he supposed any Government would second time, and ordered to be committed. sent to hear itself libelled. He knew of no law in this INDICTMENT BILL. realm, but the law established by the King, Lords, The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the second I and Commons, and it was a new doctrine to assert reading of the Bill for amending the law with regard 1 that the laws of the land should be super seded b y dis to the course of proceeding on indictments and infor- ' cretionary power vested in judges. Lawyers ought !nation in the Court. of King's Bench, in certain to he the best men when chosen to fillpublic situations, cases, &c. &c. but they were now the worst, because they were bias- Lord STANHOPE rose to oppose the Bill. He sed by their prejudices in favour of the Government said it was the most mischievous Bill that had ever by which they were elected. The Noble Lord con been brought up from the other House of Parliament, I eluded his speech by declaring his disapprobation of and whoever was the framer of it must be egregi- this Bill, because it was subversive of the liberty of I °ugly ignorant of the law of the land. How suc h a the people. Bill could have passed the House of Commons, I Lord ELLENBOROUGH, in explanation, com where there were many intelligent and enlightened I plained that the Noble Earl who spoke last had mis men, had surprised him exceedingly : but he after- ; represented what he had said. He had asserted , in wards found that none of them had see n it . This i cases of information, that the oath of the accuser was arose from no small abuse. It was the custom of . known, but when an oath was taken before a grand the House of Commons, at the commencement of ' jury, the person who made the oath could never after every session, to establish four great Committees, to be called in question. one of which this Bill ought to have been referred.— Lord LAUDERDALE opposed the Bill, and But this custom, like other good customs, was no , contended that the principles of it had not been CY longer attended to ; and thus, it must be supposed, plained by the Noble and Learned Lords. dais mass of ignorance and mischief passed without i Lord HOLLAND also repeated his objections to observation. There was nothing which should be held ! the Bill.— The question was then put, and the House more sacred than the fundamental principles of the i divided.—The numbers were, For the second reading common law. They contained the quintessence of . ; of the Bill 17—Against it 7.—Majority 10 . T he Bill wisdom ; it must therefore be the quintessence of ; was then read a second time, and ordered to be corn folly to disregard or violate them. The framer of i mined on Tuesday next.—Adjuurned. the present Bill was guilty of that folly. He would I try men in their absence, whom the Jury had sworn to see present at the bar ; he would imprison men for the most trifling faults, and bring into contempt the trial by Jury. In the course of his speech, his Lord ship related an anecdote which excited considerable laughter, of a link boy, during the ferment respect ing Mr. Wilkes, who had received a paper from ano ther link-boy, which was supposed to be seditious, and who Was taken before a Magistrate. On being asked what he was, he replied, " I am an anti-ministerial writer."—" What is that paper you have in your hand ?"—" I do not know, 1 cannot read."—" Can not read ! why, what did you mean by saying you was an anti-ministerial writer ?"—" I writes No. 4.5 upon the Lords' coaches."—His Lordship concluded by stating, that he should give his negative to the Bill, with the view of afterwards moving that it be rejected. Lord HOLLAND was surprised to see such a measure brought forward, without a single argument having been adduced in proof of its necessity, or a sinle attempt made to obviate the objections to which it was so liable. He must, therefore, call upon his Noble and Learned Friend opposite to him (Lord Ellenborough) to state the grounds on which such a measure could be justified. Lord ELLENBOROUGHthought it time enough to refute objections, when he should have heard them HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Message from the Lords announced their I.ordships' agree ment tot everal public and private Eills. Mr. DUNDAS presented to the House several Papers relative to the Polygars. '1 he Hon. Gentleman observed, that these were Papers unwed for by an Hon. Baronet, not then in hi; place (Sir T. Turton) ; they were exceedingly voluminous, and if they and the other Papers, likewise moved for upon the same subject, were to be printed, it would cost the country upwards of 14,0001. the enormous-amount of which, he trusted, would operate upon Gen tlemen's minds, before they called for the publication of them, otherwise than by the common mode of laying them upon the table; at all ever.ts, he hoped, if any Gentleman did intend to call for the printing of any of them, that previous notice of such motion would be given to the House, to afford an opportunity of aster aining whether it would be necessary to have such Papers printed. Mr. BANKES agreed that it would be proper that caution should, in these times, he observed in calling for the printing of Papers ; of late it had become a matter of very serious import.— He was convinced that the Hous would feel how requisite the caution is, when they heard that the expence of printing, during the last year, has cost the House upwards of 90,0001. That no person, however, should complain of Papers not being printed that might be wanted, he suggested the propriety of appointing a Committee to select such as would be thought necessary. Mr. WHITBREAD did not approve of the sentiment enter tained and expressed by the Hon. Gentleman, for he did not con sider it constitutional, that because intorniation was expensive, it should not be afforded. Mr. DUNDAS moved, that the Papers presented by Mr Owen, on Monday last, should be printed. 'Those appertaining to the finances of India wt. re necessary to be printed, and the House would not object to it. Ordered. Mr. R. WARD, in pursuance of the notice he had given, stated, that the Chaplains of the Navy were a s4t of persons who had great claims on the Public, and who of all others were least provided for, of all the learned classes, in point of ease and I comfort in their old age. That a provision should be made for them at that period of life, was the object of the intended Bill. For that purpose it would contain certain clauses to divide the great living of Simonbourne, in Northumberland, now held by the Rev. Dr. Scott, a very aged man, and appoint a certain ! number of these Chaplains to the Curacics thereof, dividing it into six parts. The Bill would consequently contain such clauses , as would prevent the lapse of that living at the death of the In- cumbent; and vest the same in such a way as would best accom plish the purposes of the object intended. The Honourable Gen tleman then moved for leave to bring in a Bill to enable the Com miss it.ners and governors of Greenwich Hospital to take a survey of the living of Simonbourne, and to secure the right of presenta tion, ill case of the avoidance thereof.—Leave given. rdr. BERNARD obtained leave to bring in a Bill to empower G. 41,4 Juries in Inland to sell and appropriate lands mid pre rdr.es, in certain casts, on which old Jails or Court-houses for steod. • • The Stant) Duty Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a sattioi time to-morrow, after a few words from Mr. TIERNF.Y and the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. After a short conversation between Mr. ROSE, Mr.: TIER NEY, and General GASCOIGNE, the Conunittee on the Pilots Bill WAS d,ferred till to •morrow. Mr. ROSE moved for leave to bring in a Bill to explain and amend etvcral old Acts renting to the woollen manufacture, par ricsultly as to the use of machinery in tkase inanuf;sctures' ? and the . . . laws of apprenticeship. ' Lord MILTON concurred in the propriety of abolishing the 1 , old laws with regard to machinery, but be entertained consider- 1 able doubts as to setting aside the statute of Elizabeth as to ap prenticeships. After a few words from Mr. WILBERFORCE, leave was giveu ta bring in the Bill. 1 M r . HUSKISSON brought up the Additional Stamp Duty Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time i to-morrow. things, and so would rather dismiss the Journeymen entirely, than pay them what they could not afford. He proposed to take the sense of the House on it. Mr. HORNER wished that time should be given, and that the Bills should be allowed to proceed a fcv,- stages, in order to see whether a full discussion might stiggest some relief to the petitioners in the way pro posed, or else strike out sonic other mode by which it might be 'extended. Lord MILTON was as much affected as any per, son could be, at the deplorable state of the poor peti tioners, and was as much inclined to relieve them, hut he did not think the way proposed was an efficient one; it would only tend to get them diseharged. He should decidedly oppose the Bill. Sir R. PEELE was quite of the same opinion, and would adopt the same line ; he would do so out of compassion to the poor journeymen, who would be only depressed by what was supposed would benefit them. When many were employed at a low price, many were, in some degree, shielded from ruin : but if an increase of wages was to be given, the conse. quence would be, that the superior artists only would be selected, and all the others left to starve. Mr. THOMSON said, that before fixing the max imum of wages, the Honourable Gentleman \OIL, moved for leave to bring in the Bill ought to equa lize the abilities of the workmen. Mr. ROSE explained, that it was his intention to have fixed the minimum of wages not for the time but the quantity of work done. He repeated, that he had been induced to propose the measure, not from a conviction of its propriety, bo.t in compliance with the wishes of the cotton weavers, backed with the consent of their employers. Mr. TIERNEY professed, that he would be as happy as any man, if some relief could be granted in a proper way to the persons employed in the cottcn manufacture, but he could never accede to a measure which went to fix the minimum of wages. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not think the Bill would answer the object pro. posed : if there was a low minimum, it would not give relief—if a high one, then the workmen would be dis charged. He would with pleasure agree to the full discussion of the merits of the Bill, if he thought it would have any good effect ; but he thought quite the contrary : it would only tend to raise an expecta tion, which, he was sure, it would not satisfy. • Mr. ROSE said, that after the manner in which-2 the proposition had been received, he should not • press it upon the House. Mr. BARING expressed his satisfaction that the motion was withdrawn ; but he could not omit this opportunity of stating his opinion, that the distress c omplained of arose from the suspension of foreign trade, which had taken place in consequence of the Orders in Council. Mr. LASCELLES observe 3, that had the Ho. nourable Gentleman persisted in his measure by fixing the minimuntof wages, there was no reason why the maximum should not have been fixed. He reminded the Honourable Gentleman of the observation 'of a celebrated writer on political economy—" that com merce in this country had continued to prbsper, not withstanding the existence of a Board of Trade," and recommended it to him to allow it to take its own course. CLOTHING OP THE MILITIA. Mr. WARDLE asked Ministers if they intended to pursue the same system with regard to the clothing of the Local Militia, which they have adopted with the Old Militia I The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER answered, that be could not immediately furnish him with a satisfactory reply upon that point, till he himself should, receive certain information which he expected on the subject. Mr. WARDLE then gave notice, that he would to-morrow move for the production of a letter, written and dated the 29th of March last, by the Commissioners of the Treasury, concerning the clothing of the Militia. POOR SETTLEMENT BILL. The order of the day for the second reading of the Parish Settlement Bill being read, 1 Colonel STANLEY stated the object of this Bill, which was to prevent any settlement being gained ' by renting any dwelling under the value of 201. in stead of 101. ; or by purchase, under the value of 1001. instead of 301. The next object of the Bill was I to pass Irish and Scotch paupers to their respective , parishes. Mr. CURWEN objected to the whole Bill, as op pressive and injurious in its operation, it tending to increase the burthens upon parishes, alt eady ton great. With respect to passing Irish and Scotch paupers to their respective parishes, he thought it would b e an I act of great cruelty and injustice. He considered the encouragement of friendly societies as the best mode of reducing the poor-rates, and therefore recommend ed them to the consideration of Government ; and concluded by moving that the Bill be read this day six months. Mr. LOCKHART thought, that as a system for the regulation of the Poor Laws, the House might entertain this Bill, although he had some objections to make to some of the clauses intended to be enac ted by it. With respect to the clause empowering the removal of Irish and Scotch paupers, he thought the House could not entertain it for one moment ; it would be too much to say that a man, after a long, laborious, and industrious life, should be turned over from the parish which had been the scene of that life. to a place where no provision whatever was made for him. Mr. DAVIES GIDDY objected to 'the: whole Bill in principle, and in all its enacting clapsei, parti cularly those that related to the removal of the Scotch and Irish poor ; on which he enlarged with consider able effect. Mr. HORNER strongly objected to the Bill, as completely and fundamentally altering the whole law of settlements ; occupation or payment of rent was not required; it was enough that the pauper had a mere title to possession. He objected to the Bill, not merely because it would introduce new litigation and expellee, but as condemning as vagrants and cri minals, persons who might be legally entitled to a settlement, and placing them in a situation in which they could have no redress. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY considered even the very first clause of the Bill highly objectionable, as it went to increase the difficulty of getting settlements, which must add to the afflictions of the afflicted. He cited the sentiments of Lord Mansfield, Blackstone, and Dr. Burne, who uniform) , arraigned the law of removal, without exception. ' Mr. JAMES GRAHAM supported the Bill, and cited as a reason in defence of the clause of removal, 1 1 the circumstance of whole ship loads of Irish pau pers being thrown upon the coast of Cumberland, by 1 which the parishes of his district became chargeable with them. Mr. WHITBREAD expressed his decided disap probation of the measure in toto, and he could not avoid declaring, that, from what he heard that even ing, he was encouraged to make another •application to the House on the subject of the poor. He con tended that it would not only be inhuman to Scottish and Irish poor, but even to English poor. With re spect to the Scottish and Irish poor, he looked upon it as most ungrateful and unjust, as well as cruel, that i after they had employed their early days in the services of this country, and in the most laborious employ- ment for our ease and convenience, that, in their old days, when infirmity and the decay of nature render ed them no longer capable of maintaining themselves, they should be cast out of society, and driven from it as criminals. • After a few further observations by General MA THEW, Mr. CHOKER, and Sir lt. PEELE, Colonel STANLEY declared, that he felt it his duty to take the sense of the House upon the Bill. A division then took place, when there appeared, For the second reading of the Bill 11 ; Against it 114—Majority against the Bill 103. JOURNEYMEN COTTON WEAVERS. Mr. ROSE, pursuant to his notice, rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to prevent the excessive reduc tion of wages of the Cotton manufacturers: He pre fitced his motion by a statement of the very great de pression of wages in this branch of our manufactures arising from various circumstances, which had lowered them from 15s. to Bor 9s. per week. A power had been granted to the Magistrates to interfere, but from the multiplicity of business in which they were en gaged, it had been proved ineffectual. A meeting took place between the masters and manufacturers, and they mutually agreed to petition Parliament; that petition was referred to a Committee which did nothing upon it, but report the evidence taken before them, without coming to any determination. He had been applied to on the subject, and felt it his duty to bring the mat ter in the shape of a Bill before the House. After al few prefatory observations, Mr. Rose moved for leave to bring in a Bill " to prevent the depression of wages given to journeymen Cotton Weavers." This Bill he I , moved for leave to bring in, in consequence of petitions which he had received from certain manufacturing towns, setting forth the great distress of that descrip tion of persons which it went to relieve. Mr. PATTISON begged to know whether the Bill was to be extended generally, or restricted to particu lar places ? Mr. ROSE answered, that it was his intention to restrict it to those places from whence the petitions were presented. Mr. DAVIES GIDDY was of opinion that the Bill would fall into the very error which it meant to prevent. The masters would not be able to afford to pay higher wages than they did in the present state of DISTILLERIES. Lord BINNING said, it was his intention to pre. face the motion he should have the honour to submit to the House with a few observations, tending to vin dicate and explain the motives by which he was ac tuated. He was well aware there were many Gen- tlemen much better qualified to fulfil the task which had devolved upon him. The House knew that he was nominated Chairman of the Committee appointed to enquire into the state of the West India mer• chants. That Committee had taken particular care before they came to any resolution, to see how far the interests of agriculture ware likely to be affected by it ; and it was not till a full and deliberate investiga tion of many serious facts had assured them of its wisdom, that they determined on it. He was con vinced, with the rest of the Committee, that they had come to a salutary decision. He read part of the report of the Committee, and many of the facts upon which that report was founded—such a report would never have been presented relative to the West India merchants, if they had not thought it was for the interest of England. He was very ready to admit an observation which had been made relative to this measure, that the distresses of one part of the com munity ought not to be relieved by an oppression on the other; but while he admitted its truth he denied its application. An objection had been raised, stating that England imported 770,000 quarters of grain from foreign countries, which of course must much increase the stock on hand at home ; he did not, hose. ever, think, in our present situation with those coun tries, this objection was valid ; but if that situation changed, then of course a change of plans might follow. It was also stated, that there was plenty of corn in the country ; now the fact was diractly the reverse ; and he would prove, by reading lint of the evidence which came before the Committee, that the last harvest had been an uncommonly barren one : he then read over part of the evidence, which stated that although in the south of England the wheat liar. vest had been good, yet still in almost every other part the barley one had been very scanty indeed, and in Scotland particularly so. Now if next harvest also proved deficient, the measure now proposed would become inevitable, and it was better not to wait till pressed by the hand of necessity, and that at a positive loss. The computation of corn which was imported into England and Scotland, was at the rate of 470,000 quarters of corn ; and now, in a comparatively scarce and deficient year, there was no importation what ever, owing to our hostility with the countries (rem whence we had been used to receive supplies. Another objection had been raised, which was, that this measure would stand as a pernicious precedent. —He thought that it was impossible, and why ? because he did not think it by any means probable, that similar circumstances would again occur, in which case alone this act could be acted on as a pre cedent.—(Hear, beer ! ) It had been said that this resolution would diminish the quantity of corn which would be sown next year : the quantity sown, how ever, he and the Committee thought would be en rink regulated by the price paid. But it had also been said, that on the first appointment of this Com mittee, •the price of grain would fall ; now, on the contrary, it had risen, was daily rising, and did not appear likely•to suffer any diminution. This assertioa IL 5,41 ha , 9ui Tju I re. l id to s o Or ! he Pad aloe boo swag/ *dr Ol t e at in flick 1 i s V i : Wi n " t r oo f: t was ae bel by an 1 01' sent VW' id* AM tains