Star. — London, England, 1817-02-19 00:00:00

r::..11 said in Parliantert—N We fore is merely the amoral effect of a trans awe . War to a sate of peace !" B.vt . •qo +ices been foreseen at the time of , liped by the Nable Earl (Liver. very the:rent in its terms from th.it been concluded The Kai.ters now t .y t eeseve ell this distress. It they did, pr teasel a gross delusion on Parliament ,rej t h e puttee ; for i t the Speech from the Throve, vein:vie of the list Sessinn of Parliameet, had stated, oit the Agriculture, Menefee ores, and Commerce of the Conetret were in a foorehing condition. They did nut, therefore, ie t oee the present distresses as the mound effect ,f the transition; or if they did, they practised 3 gross delusion on Parliament and the public.— Tut tht•s• petitions were a true indication of the it e e of feeling in the country there could be n, bost Never in his memory had the country been e such a state of distress, one it was natural that ;dement should be called upon to adopt some roasnres for their retnevel. The petitioners here eeke to the House in a respectful and temperate then disclaimed the toe.•wil l and visionary scheme, . suffrage, and also of annual Parliaments, eheh Le alto disapproved, though without confound eeit with the other. It was curious that, though eeelct had often been discussed in Parliament, sis seierne of annual Parliaments and universal sut e,,o, as claimed on the ground that it was the right e f . e,e p:ople by the Constitution, had never been e e s letely confuted, probably because it had always cansidzred as too Absurd and groundless to need seeatatien : and he had no hesitation in saying, that be e le eeht the grounds and principles on which this ce was made, were,raere dangerous than the claim The people had been t . )14.1, that universal suf. feee and annual Pediments were their right by the hx ani cunsetution of their country. New if hr cue called upon to point out one particular above til othcis, on account of which the peoples of this c.::::try were superior to the people of any other country that he had ever seen, he would maniocs that meted respect for the laws for which the people of England were resteatkable ; and nothing, therefore, ens more calculated to mike a deep impression on teem than to be told that they were by law eutitled to that which they were not permitted to enjoy. It vas of the greatest importance, therefore, to con vince the people, that the grounds on which such visionary scheineseosted were completely erroneous. As to universal suffrage, that was the wildest fancy that could possibly enter into the conception of any human being; and as to annual Parliaments, the people were not entitled to them by any law, and rime particularly, not entitled to them by the Com mon Law. All the Acts of Parliament which had been refereed to, from the earliest times down to the Long Parliament, including the Act 16th of Charles the First, had for their object not the limiting of the duration, but the frequent holding of Parliaments. This was the object of all these Acts, beginning with the sth of Edward 11. and in one respect he wished that our modern Acts had more resemblance to them, for they were very seort, hardly above four lines each. All of them spoke of Parliaments to be frequently Like, not frequently Mores; and even at present the expression " holden" would apply rather to the as lerubling than to the choosing of Parliaments. But When they came don e to the time of the Long Par, lament, and Leaked at the preambles of the Anse they woeld fired that the reasons applied to the hee l Runt meeting, and not frequent choosing of Paths. meet; and to whatever excesses the Long Parliament had at last resorted, it ought to be recollected, that everal . persons, the best acquainted with the prin. eples of our Constitution, such as Coke and Selden, eere members of that Parliament. It was true that fey of these early Parliam e nts sat fo r mo re t h an a I year ; but even the Parliament which passed the Act Ate Edward [I. for the frequent holding of Parlia ments sat for two sessiens, and wasitself prorogued. and the King was understone even then to !mei this right. Other opportunities would occur for the discussion of these points; but it appeared to him of importance not to suffer this opportunity to pass without throwing omit these few observations. The Prayer of the Peti. eon was for a reduction of the public expenditure, the abolition of sinecures and useless places, some ex- Elision of the elective franchise, and some alteration in the duration of Parliaments. On these latter points he gave no opinion at present ; but aft men of sound Igment agreed that reduction was necessary to a artich greater ext-nt than had as yet been proposed by Ministers. He was not, however, one of those thought that no alteration for the better could ply be effected in our system of representation. • ve, too much to say of any human Institution, that it could not be amended but when he consi dered the variety of opinions among those who called for Parliamentary Reform, lie was under some ap prehension that the object_ was not attainable at this , moment, and that the subject was not in a state to ei,abl e even Parliament to decide satisfactorily upodl ▪ But in the mean time the attention of the people' (eget not to be diverted from the object of diminishing tee wins of influence and corruption—a species of Reform w loch might be immediatelyearried into effect., was vet y far from agreeing with those who belt! et that no good could be done without Parliamentary Iteorm, though he admitted that some alteration in !le system of Representation might be beneficial, es teielly in the northern part of the British island.— R. form would neither pay the National debt, feed •!e hungry, nor prevent Improvident wars. He had lother petition to the same effect as the first, from itelaeitants of the Ward of Aldgate; and a third eti the bough of 11.otherglen. This last petition • prayed tor Reform, but chiefly for Retrench. ':it• and stated our improvident wars as one great • tee of the presenrdistress, and t that assertion he • ' 1 steel the particular s atteution o! the House. The 'error situation of the coutitry was this—We had a 'clise almost beyond the endurance of a loyal peo t, an eipenditioe beyond. that revenue; and we dnn a system of , foreign policy, and also of do eto policy, if Ireland were included, beyond teat . peuditure; and no real and permanent good would done, till our revenue should be reduced in a .ate coeinnensuratewith the depressed situation of country, and our expenditure should be reduced est cur revenue. He concleded by moving, that ':at petition be readoeerhat and the .other peti. Were then read s and laid on the table, which o quer! te. • . • . tiarl CR . E't tote to pretitot a Petltioo from the Common C;ancil of the City of London. It was signed by Town Clerk, and was in the form in which retititms had usually been presented and 're ceived from the Corporation of London. it descritsed the distress of the conntry, not as proceeding from temporary but permanent camel, attributing all err existing difficulties and entharrassments to the pro lusion of onr civil and milit try expenditure, and to tit- maintenance of a standing army in the time of peace. The remedies the Petitioners roposed for. these evils were economy and retrenchment in every branch of public expenditure, and a reform in the Commons' Hanle of Parliament. The Petitioners in the present Petition, as in that which had been presented by his Nobltt Friend, disclaimed an vi sionary and impracticable plans of Reform ; amng which was to be included the claim to annual Paaliament3 and universal suffr age. df late so fre quently advancel, and which his Noble Friend had proved to rest on no authority in the history, and to have na foendation in the Canstitotion of the country. Such, in a few words, was the nature of the Petition he had the honour to present to their Lordships, and one more deserving of the attention of Parliament his! never been presenteJ. in that Hoase. With re spect to the topics the Petition embraced, most of them had been already fully discnised; but with re gard to that of Parliamentary Reform, lie was desi rous of saying a few words. In common with his Noble Friend, he disalimed. as mully impracti cable, any plan of Reform which had for ita basis Annual Parliaments, and Universal Suffrae. After what his Noble Friend had so sell said on the histo rical part of the subject, it was unnecessary for him to enter into any details to ihew, that Annual Elec. dons formed no part of the Coostitution of Parlia ment. Such never had been, and he trusted never would be the Constitution of the Legislature of this Country. But though these claims might be, on the par: of some persons, advanced from insidious de signs, he well knew that many honest, virtuous, and lwell•informed men, had supported such doctrines; am) none more deserved this character than the late Mr. Granville Sharpe, who had been so prominent in advocating the claim of [Thiversal Suffrage. The adoption of such a mode of election, he was con viuced, would be only a prelude to the complete overthrow of the Constitution. It was a system to tally unknown to the country; but it was not neces coy to make out, that by reference to history, it would be sufficient to point out the dangerous con. sequences with which it wsuld be unavoidably at tended ; for were it proved that such had been the constitution of Parliament, I should still ask what Government, what Parliament, what race oc men in this country, had been so infallible, as to entitle them to bind posterity by their decision, and to im pose upon the country for ever, any system of Re presentation which they might clioase to sanction.— On their own principles, the persons asking for Par liamentary Reform ought to object to such a doctrine as this: but no particular system of Parliamentary representation constituted any of the rights of the, people. These right; are liberty and security : the particular laws and constitution of Parliament are modes whereby these rights ate obtained. There fore, though it could be decisively dean instrated„ that annual Parliaments and universal suffrage had once farmed part of the law of the country, the qua don still to be determined would, be, whether such a change at the present moment woeld se ihv =tans of. securing the rights of the subject, or the reverse ? In stating thus much, with respect to the visionary and impracticable schemes of Reform which were afloat, he must state his opinion, that the great body c 4 the people looked no farther than to return: of the real and acknowledged defects in the representation of Parliament. He believed that the people had in many instances been induced, without due conside ration, to petition for universal suffrage, because they saw no appearance of any sincere disp isitiun to promote retrenchment and' economy, er to remedy those abuses in the constitution ut Parliam'ent which bad been the *object of complaint from the time of Mr. Locke to the present day. The application of a remedy .to these defects, by those who possess the power and influence capable of recommending its easy adoption, would go farther in allaying public discontent and removing the errors which prevailed in the country on the subject of Parliamentary Reform, than any other measure that could possibly beadopted. From what he had stated their Lordships would per ceivP, that he was a friend to a moderate Reform of , Parliament; at the same time he was prepared to state, that he did not carry his opinion on that subject so far as he once had done; and oo fear of unpopu larity should ever deter him from any change of opi nion which experience might induce him to adopt on a question of such great importance. It was not the first time he had taken an opportunity of explaining' his sentiments on this subject. If any thing which fell from so bumble an inJividual as himself might he worthy the recollection of their Lordships, it ' would be remembered, that in 1810, when he moved an Address on the state of the Nation, he stated a considerable modification of his opinion on the ques tion of Reform. The Petition which he wished to submit to . their Lordships prayed for the extension of the right of Suffrage to all Householders; he was, therefore, the more desirous to state, that he still ad hered to the modi fi ed opinion he h ad avowed on the occasion alluded to. as the plan prayed for by the Petitioners was precisely that which he had himself proposed in the other House of Parliament, at a period of life when the hope of benefit from change was usually more sanguine, and the opinion of its necessity less temperad by prudence than at the age in which he was Now addressing their Lordships.— Experience had taught him to doubt the advantage of a Reform to such an extent, but he was still strongly of opinion that no time should be lost in removing from the system of our Representation those obvious stains which were the fruitful ex citements to discontenb----(Heer, hear, hear.) — When it was recollected, that the people had been for a century told by the greatest and wisest men that ever existed in this or in any other country, that gross defects existed in the constitution of . the House of Commons-.-when they had been told so by Locke, by Blackstone, by Mr. Pitt, and by 'Mr. Fox, and even indirectly by Mr. Burke himself, when he spoke of the shametul parts of the constitution, it *as ins possible that they should not look with great anxiety so the removal of these defects; it was natural to sup , pose that they should .entertaia as opinion that the en* :can or abases pointetl oat be stk.! . antlin-H rity, would tend to remove m tny of the evils ot which I they complained. He was therefore convinced, 0.1 I a Reform to a due extent, and applied with States.; mar-like caution; would be one of the too.; important I and beneficial measures to which this or the ft:11:r House could resort is the pierent cam of the colliery. Whenever the subject came beta c their Ler4,iips, he doubted not that it w 0.141 receive the solemn con sideration due to :itch an important cincs;ion, a‘ , d thought the present time most suitable to the propesal of n mealareaf so salutary a name as a moderate Ramat ; for at a time wf.cn ti it Lordships were called upon to enact new laws for restraMing the free dom of the snbject, of the necessity of which he eiroald not now speak, it was proper to evince to the people a sincere desire to remedy existing abuses The Petition stated, that all attempts to remove the difficulties into which the connti y was rlunged would be of no avail without a reform of Pkrliament. This WAS an opinion in which he could not concur. With all its defects, the Parliament of this country was the best legislative assembly is the world, and was ca pable of redressing every evil experienced by the country, without resorting to any alteration in its constitution. It was certain, however, that the cor rection of some of the more obvioss defects •af the re presentation of the House of Commons, and in parti cular, a diminution of the patronage of the Crown, would go far to allay mulch of that discontent which at present existed, atcl to reconcile all men sincerely to the practical administration of the Conititution. Were some moderate measure of this kind adopted, their Lordships would hear no more of :petitinns for annual Parliaments and universal suffrage. His Lord ship concluded by moving that the Petition be read ; which was done accordiogly. Earl GROSVENOR wished to state what was the impression left on his mind by the Petition which had just been read, especillly as that impression was dif ferent from the view taken of it by his Noble Friend. It did ant appear to him that the Petitioners intended to declare it to be their opinion that no good could be done until a reform of Parliament was ob tained ; but that, from the conduct of the present Government, they saw no hope of a sufficient reduc tion of the pablic expenditure, and no prospect of the introduction of that system of ecnir:my they had been taught to expect in a period of peace, and that they therefore had now only Parliamentary Reform to look to. It would be for their Lordships and the other House to chew that the abuses were capable of being remedied by Parliament as at present consti tuted. li the people saw any effectual reduction en forced, any notorious abuses removed, they would then have lees cause to petition for Reform. The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table. i t . . • ''. ' . 7 . r.i . 4; ;! , i st 4 ..*4 .. . f ; 1 Pe iCe .' 1 : :, 3 ,1 lino , 11 1 7 . ,; . t . E it :ley 1 for they Al! of i AJdrx, erpressi 1:2111brIll When d lament they vet spent si merit; ; had at I ..everal cipies e year ; Ath Ed mews s the Kit Other these p Ant to i Cot the Lion wa the abq tension in the c he gain judgms south by Min who th , pessibl l It v.. that it tiered t for Ptr prehert snomer et,altle r'• tut (~:ghtt Vi e roe Retorts Ileua cot th:l Re.oro the s y s fiat Rt t.!o htt vloss le 5.,, el p i ''t• l et it C I .', a :J: cta •• TUB FRENCH LOAN. The Earl of LAUDERDALE repeated the questions he had put on a former day on this subject, namely, whether any communications bad passed between his Majesty's Ministers and the persons who had recently advanced money by way of loan to the French Government ? and whether these persons had . been given to understand, that the example set by the clause in the late treaty of peace, which secured payment to British creditors of the French Govern hint, was to be considered as affording no encou tagement to this negociatinn ? He bad received no distinct answer to these questions. The /•In'ti:! Lord had indeed said, that Government had seither s Inc ioned nor restrained, the negoci ition ; but it was not with the right of persons to dispose of their pro perty as they might think fit that fit ever w.shed interfere. What he had in view, by the pri:smt ino• tion, was to bring the conduct of Government under the consideration of the House; not to arraign any man for embarking in this or any other speculation whi c h was, open to him by the laws of the country : but it was a question of a different nature whether Go vernment had given encouragement to this transaction. Without infringing the general right of every person to dispose of his.property -in the way he might ihisk most advantageous, there might arise a necessity for making a law to regulate that right under certain circumstances. The accumulation of capital, in car. tain cases, had bsen made • the subject of legiAation, as was evinced with respect to the Sinking Fund. Many persons seemed to consider that fund as having originated with Mr. Pitt, and regarded its creation as one of the greatest honours they could attribute to him ; but to any merit from that measure, which those who called themselves his followers were so disposed to hold-up to public admiration, he was less entitled than from any other which lied been attri buted to him. The Noble Lords opposite ought to know that Sir Robert Walpole established a Sinking Fund, which, by the measures connected with it, re duced the rate of interest in 1715 from 15 to 4 per cent. In establishing that fund he thought it neces. sary to introduce an Act prohibiting the lending of money to foreign countries. Though he was aware that this clause was in a great measure rendered nu gatory by others in the same Act, and that no prolii bitiOnscouldbe completely effectual fcr such a purpose, the passing of such an Act proved the opinion enter tained as to the perniCious influence the transmission of capital out of the country wuuldhave upon the funds. But what he at present desired to know was, whether Ministers had, in the case of the late Loan, done any thing to remove the encouragement given to such negotiations by the Treaty of Paris? Commissioners had been appointed to inquire what balance was due , by France to :his country for ,the maintenance of prisoners of war, though a clause in the Treaty gave up to France the whole of that balance, on condition of the French Government paying the sums due to the subjects of this country who had speculated in their funds. It was difficult to see what necessity there could be for the appointment of Commissioners to inquire into • the amount of a balance which was to be totally abandoned ; but from that incoiry it appeared, that be balapce was infitaely greater titan the amount of the sums due to British creditors; so that, in fact, had this country paid these creditor,,l a great saving would have resulted to the puhl . c. After the example of such a transaction, what secu rity was there that a similar improvident bargain would not again be made ? It was, however, most essential to the interest of the country, that no en couragement should be had out to such translctionse 'and it elicit Lordships had any hope of ever der ivi , ig advantage from that Sinking Fund of which M,,isters haasted so much; they would do well to koic a ith I a jealous eye to the supplying of fcrreigrt couotries *ith r that source of prosperity they so muco warned ; capital. . . - . Aftet what had Inepentinl, was it. ezpeeed 17.4: . future uneaten of the French Gevernmesit, oat; it.; alibis euentry, would not set op a claim to hilt reg rew= of their delns ? Seppese the present Pt retch Gevetninent were tea reduce the debt due to their own subjects, zed alt balding prupeity in their funds. would not she case f o.the. persons, wino have now ate vanced money to Feiner be etroneer thee those who, under the last treaty, experienced sa eterearetinary a protection tromgolveintnent ? Those Wm irad thus been rewarded .leneeheir money to the French Go vernment to enable it, to make vier against us; but the peruses who embarked in the present loen know, that the money they advance will enable the French Government to fulfil their erre egements with this Country: certaiely a very deferetit pi'urpose. But still, why shteild any Government holdout a bowls to its settiects to trai.4.l- their capital to a foreign clumsy ? The Nl,tile Lot.f had agreed to . the pass ing of a Bill, at two years f.nm the date of which the Bank restriction will expire ; teat will be about a year and a half from the present time: but it en couragement is given to the transfer of capital to other countries, what prospect is there that this sa lutary measure can be casried into effect ?—(Near.) He wished that the Noble Lerd oppositts siceild meter to the correspondence which passed li,stween Mr. Pitt au.l the B ink Directors: he would 'five se:• the in juri ma effects which were to b: expected from en. couragement given to forzien lams. The Nelda Lord will perhaps say, that th • pot thm of the present loan which :s to go Iron t!rs c• sorry is very m e n ; but if he looks into the correspondence alluded to, he will :had that she Dircctors et3jeeted to so small a suns as ag900,000 beiag sent ahroed. Wes it possible for any Noble Lord to believe, that a less bum wet transmitted to France On the canner , , the preha bility was, that the gee 'ter proportion of the mon-y would go from the country in which the rate of in terest was lowest, and quantity of capital the greatest. In this state of th tigs, what iiiducement would there be to invest money inourtuntis—( Eerl of Liver pool smiled.) From the manrc in which the Noble 1 24:1 has received this observation, he donbtless means CO maintain, that the chief inditcern-nt to invest nuerzy in the public funds is the opinion of security and reli ance on the credit of the coim try. He confessed that he had once been of that opinion himself . : but farther consideration of the subject had induced hien to attribute mote importance to the rate of interest. In this respect our kinds had to sustain a disadvan tageous comp erison, both :Monad and at home. The Noble Earl most know, that there never was such a disparity between the interest to be made in the funds and the interest in the throaty-meat ket as existed at the present moment. his Lerendtip concluded by mov ing, that these be laid he ore dr. House c. , pses of papers or con.munications relative to the late 1. , in to the French Government which hush passel teeteLen his Majesty's Ministers and patties concus s ed in the said loan. Lord LIVERPOOL had a short mimer ne the Noble Lord's Motien. Government bad not, nor could they have, any cammunications to lay before Patliatnert. 11.: would now repeat what he had said on a (sort occasion, namely, that the Government had not interfered either to encourage or discomi , ge this AtiVettlee of i neney to the Fte.nch Government by liriti h indsviJoah, The individuals concerned, how. I ever, were wet! aware that Government would gise no go trainee for the repayment of the money Vets Ai/Aced by them. The Noble Lord had tilindtd Ito an article in the Treaty of Paris, uh ch he said e.ive an artificial credit and seppnrt to the French Funds at the expense of this country, and had said this article would form a precedent for future treaties. This he (Lord Liverpool) denied: the circumstances attending that Tteety were such as he hoped tenet! never occur again ; but they were such as called for extraorginary circumstances to be adopted with which to meet them, and he trusted would justify the adop tion of the article in the 'Treaty to which the N..1)11 Lord had alluded. ' With respect to what had fallen from the Noble Lord respecting the Sinking Fund of Sir Robert Walpole, and subsequent Ministers, down to Mr. Pitt's Sinking Fund, Mr. Pitt's system differed, and excelled all foimer systems, because it was kept up during war, and it would in a little time place us in that situation in which i country would w . sh to be. We should have a low rate of interest, and an abundant capital; and he considered that the adoption of any measure restraining individuals horn employing their capital to the bes: advantage, would be a measure of great impolicy. respect to the restriction of cash payments by the Bank, he (Lord Liverpool) had some doubts as to the neces tity of the measure, but he considered the adoption of it as fortunate for the country. Lord HOLLAND observed, that in the answer which the Noble Earl had attempted to give to the speech of his Noble Friend, there were some circum , stances which he had most unaccount ok.rd. He had not thought fit to notice th .t this coon , try had purchased the payment of two miliions and , a half from the French Government, by the sacrifice of seven millions. He believed diet no man could , be called very unreasonable who supposed, that if the doiernment of France were on a future Occasion to be as successful as they h id inelie lite war been ultimately unsuccesslol, they still would have ne obe jection to the introduction of a clause giving them a similar advantage in any Treaty that might be con cluded. In speaking of the Treaty of 1787, too, the Noble Earl omitted to state, that the advantage of the at Cele he hail reß•rt ed to was refused to the British creditors by the Ministers of die Noble Etrl's party. The Noble Esti then nested the claims of such cre ditors as extravaglet and absurd. He was therefore still of opinion, that Parliament ought to adopt some I officiel mode of declaring, that the late Treaty wi:11 France was not to be draseteinto a precedes,,, so a s to serve as an encouragement to petstins to inv,.:t I money its rise funds of Foreign States. • Lord LAUDERDALE r eplied, and contended ib.:t Mr. P a t's Snkiag Fut d did not differ in princi ple trim former Sinking Funds. With respect to toe suspension of cash payments by th Bank. he was persuaded this measure had beets the source of greet part of the evils mider which the country at present laboured. The Noble Lord then withdrew his Mo. tion,—A.djoursted. the- r twig of !Nat.—Wednesday sight a Are broke oat in the worsted mill o th f e M m e :c ir b s in!l 'ea y: e ic .a . t vi nar ili 4n si f r n t4e ‘s w il C c o h l a ll n e l r t ° h T e e4 ..i... 441 the :.rtes. The ,NivtLr a r:••ttaa•t 41 4: £15,04.10.