Star. — London, England, 1817-03-12 00:00:00

might br seen from the frequent appeals the people in the dissolution of Parliament. as a most convincing proof of the influence of (own out of doors. He could not agree to the opinion, that statesmen and those in office corrupt as was said. Corruption, if it existed :re, was sarong the great mass of the people. ' 1% is more aware than he was of the deep ne .l adopting measures of economy; yet these we: e not to be adopted when they came in contact with the safety cf the State : nor did he wgree in the opinion, that because an office was held by a per son who employed a deputy to discharge its du- Les, that that individual was a sinecurist. He iin cchtedly received a salary from the public; but stn it wns to be remembered, he became responsible, !;:. the performance of these duties. N• 1 man, he be. 3:-ved, could suppose that system of Government to t,e right which allotted no rewards to its public see-. rants. Rewards were indispensably necessary for nieritofons services, and certainly sinecures were in. fir.iiely better than public pensions. Convinced as be was that the giving of pensions would be felt to be a m ore serious evil than sinecures, he thought the grant. kg of these pensions would disgrace Parliament more. &wanes might be compared to prizes in a lottery, whic:i (ached the emulation of many. It would be impolit;e, he thought, to do away such grounds for emulator. It had been said that the present existing distres , es of the country called for Parliament giving some f ledge to the people respecting whal they would do. This was, however, a principle on which he de rldwl I.e shJuld never act; because he Most firmly believed that much harm had been done to the pub tri...l by those discussions which had taken place va sinecure., and by the attacks of one party on the other. Such a principle would in its very nature be productive of much evil, were it to be acted on. Had he been present, he would on this account have joined Ncble Lord on the cross bench ( kedesdale) in his opposition to the proposed voluntary contributions on vie salaries of public officers, for he considered this measure extremely well fitted to encourage the rya. ler delusion respecting public officers being too well picl, which any man who was acquainted with the subject knew to be wrong. It was encouraging, he would again repeat, the absurd opinion of the public salaries being too large, and on that account he would have opposed it. He should also say further, that he did not see the policy or propriety of Minis ms recommending his Royal Highness th renounce part of his income. The salary given to that illus trious personage was in consideration of the high situ s: on in which he was placed, and it had been given to him after a solemn and dispassiOnate deliberation in Parliament. He differed materially from the Re solutions proposed by his Noble Friend, because he cthsidered they took the attention of the country f:om the greatest of our evils, which undoubtedly -.:as our public debt, and which had been too much I:,:reased by the deterioration of public currency. Thia was the great cause of the present distress, and attempts at minor reforms were therefore to be re probated, inasmuch as they diverted public attention trum the great evil. His Lordship concluded by say ing he should vote against the Resolution of his No bk Friend respecting the abolition of sinecures, as that idea tended only to amuse the people, without producing a single advantage to the country. Lord DARNLEY had no hesitation in admitting that the Constitution of Parliament was much better with respect to the influence of the Crown than it once was. When the times were so severely pressing as the present were, he thought some attention and respect should be paid to the public voice. The coun- try had, he might almost say with one voice, declared the system of rewarding public services by sinecures to be extremely objectionable, and certainly some at. terion should be paid to that voice. He did not deny that the system of rewarding by pensions was objectionable and improper, but he still thought a better way might be devised of granting public re wards. Aware that the public wished and expected their Lordships to attend to this subject, he withed to impress it on their minds. He believed his Noble Friend who had just spoken had acted from the beet of motives, but he should vote for the motion of his Noble Friend (Grosvenor), because he was persuaded the country expected their Lordships to do something respecting sinecures, and because he thought some attention was due t 9 the public voices Lord HOl4-AND felt it imposialk not to say a' few words on `we present occasion. tlp the.observa lions be was now to submit to their" Lord:hips, he could not help commencing with noticin)Ovhat had fallen from the Noble Earl (Liverpool) at the head of the Treasury, respecting the increase in the Funds since the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act had takes place. An argument of a more extraordinary nature bad perhaps on no occasion been ever stated in the House. The argument might, in tact, be car ried infinitely further than their Lordships were awares for, might it not be urged. that if since the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act the Funds had risen so high, especially when that suspension was only for three months, it might be proper to abolish the Habeas Corpus Act altogether I Surely if the temporary suspension of the Act in one case did good to the Funds, its abolition most, on the same reason ing, de infinitely more. The Noble Earl at the head 0 1 the Treasury had begun his speech by expressing his Virtuous indignation at the charge made respect ing the people of England being libelled. The Noble Earl had disclaimed any inch idea as that of libelling the people of England. This was plausible enough, but it was worthy of notice, that he had nevertheless punished the whole people of England, by depriving them of their liberty, in consequence of the poli tical follies of a few. Whether the country were or were not implicated in these follies, it was neverthe less true th at i t h a d b een d epr i ve d of its liberty !had its best privilege torn from it—(lisar, : lsear.) The Noble Earl had contrasted the line of conduct now followed by his Noble Friend (Lord Grosienor) with what he had formerly done. True it was that Its Noble Friend had voted formerly for theenspen twin of the Habeas Corpus Act, but then let it be remembered the country was in circuesatances of a totally different nature. Then we had to contend against a formidable enemy, and against the intro duction of principles hostile to the &itish Constitu tion. He (Lord Holland) had never seen that dan ger in so great a light as some of his friends had, and he had therefore opposed the Suspension Act. His Noble Friend, however, had voted for it, because he aPerellended the danger to -be gnat. But the cis. o r doors made to This was the Crow ?;,‘ pplliar %erg SO C r. any whet t,,, I.: 0 man :re colic y t.i 'ha measures P •nntACI V 1- e- re D. cemstances of•the present time certainly bag no ana logy to those of 1794—restored to peace after a long and unexampled sanguinary war, we had now no enemy to contend with. We were in profound peace with respect to our foreign concerns, and certainly had no danger to dread from abroad, the only enemy at home cr abroad being the feelings of the people; and were those feelings really an enemy ?—(Meor, hear, hear.) Now his Noble Friend had voted against the Suspension on these grounds, and certainly he was justified iu so doing. The Noble Lord, whom I.e was happy to call his Friend (Lord Lauderdale), had expressed his regret at differing with those with whom he generally acted. He (Lord Holland) always heard the speeches of his Noble Friend with pleasure, when he considered the luminous and elo quent manner in which they were delivered. He did not; ;iowever, agree with his Noble Friend respect ing the increase of the influence of the Crown being confined to the mass of the people. If the Crown actually had so much influence out of the House, that influence was of necessity exercised in the Hong for the most obvious reasons. Nor did he conceive the debt of the country to be the principal evil, be cause he thought the unconstitutional standing army, the unnecessary extravagant expenditure of the public money, &c. were equally bad. He did not concur in the comparison made between the period of Queen Anne's reign and the present, respecting the influ ence of the Crown, because it should be remembered two Unions had taken place since that, and besides the tolonial Department had increased to such an extent as, in the opinion of the Noble Earl at the head of the Treasury, to requiie the services of a third Secretary of State. And here, when speaking of the Secretary of State, he could nut help noticing the opinion of the Noble Earl. He had said the bu siness of the State could not be conducted without this Secretary. Surely the duties of that office could not be so highly imptirtant or laborious, when it was recollected that Lord Melville had been both Pre sident of the Board of Controul and Secretary at War (as the office was then called) at one time.— But reasoning from what the Noble Earl old, one was disposed to think the time of peace was more la borious than a state of war. Such a conclusion was obviously absurd, but however absurd, it still natu rally followed from what had been said by the Noble Earl. He had not the experience of the Noble Earl respecting the Administration of Public Affairs, but he could say, nevertheless, that it was infinitely bet ter to go on with two Secretaries than three, for he knew enough of public business to be able to say, that the multiplicity of offices impeded that busioes.s Nor was this his own opinion only, for in support of it, he had the authority of the House of Commons, who had declared two to be sufficient. It was said that there were three Secretaries before the American War. Yes ! and much good indeed did they do to the country I Parliament afterwards showed their sense of this by the vote he had just alluded to. He would further say, (hat certainly there was no mea sure of economy which should be overlooked. Why had Ministers not more early adopted these measures which they promised to do? Why had they allowed the last year to elapse without doing them? Much was now said respecting what they were ping to do; but why had they so long put off any Retrenchments ? He believed that whatever had taken place, had been ow. in g solely to the voice of the Country, to the firmness oithe People, and their steady efforts in petitioning. The truth of this was abundantly evident to the most superficial observer. It was said that inquiries re specting economy were going on in another House, and therefore it was an improper time to propose diem here. He thought differently, for there never could be a more proper, never a more suitable period, for considering the necessity of retrenchments than the present. Nick-names had been frequently given to motions, as they were frequently called abstract and speculative by those who did not much like them. Committees in another House had not unfrequently been employed as means for evading economy. Much bad been said respecting the splendour of the Crown being maintained. This as ceitainly proper; btu that splendour ought to be accommodated to the state of the times and the finances of. the country, other. wise it was falsely called splodour. It was an invi dious task, he thought, to call on "individuals toimake saciifies s. He considered' what had been said re speaangrpensions to be an a4eirtue gacetios—(Hear.) We'fiaif,both sinecures and pensions in the country. Inntimerable were the instances of pe:,sions being granted by Parliament ,on Messages being sent down . from the Crown. There was a Noble Earl in the House (Lord Chatham) who received one for the meritorious services rendered to the country by his illustrious father. Mr. Pitt's debts had been paid by Parliament. Though he differed in politics from that statesman, he could not but declare his conviction of his being a most disinterested character. Mr. Pace eal's family had also received a pension. He did not mean any thing invidious by thus selecting names,, but he considered' as both sinecures and pensions wee given, their Lordships might see it was a proper sub ject for them to consider whether they might not at least strike off one of these. With respect to sinecures being a reward for services, he could only say they were liable to great abuses and to much objection.- 1 Pensions might be called " the arrow flying by dab' while Sinecures were " the pestilence walking by' night." (Mar, hear.) The people had expressed their opinion of the impropriety of sinecures being given, and certainly that opinion was entitled to the serious attention of their Lordships. Much better would it be for their Lordships to at once listen to the voice of the people, than allow the people to ex tort from .them little by little. Much better it would be at once to coccede manfully what was claimed, than to be obliged afterwards to do it. His Lord ship concluded by giving his support to the Resolu tion of his Noble Friend, which be hoped the House would accede to. • The previous qtiestion was negatived, and the question was then put on Earl Grosvenor's Resole tom."' Contents, s—Not Contents 45.-Majority against the Motion, 40.—Adjourned.. HOUSE OF COMMON/. General THORNTON Ppitiopned Ida motion on the subject of Assessed lases rad by Absentees, wideb stood for tomorrow, till the in* imam. Mr. DICICENaOId gave, narks. that, be would ma Tuesday, next, move for kave to firing to a Eill, to enable btaitheruse Is Quarter Sessions to regulate the Salaries and Fees of Clerks of ale Yeats. tar. Jonmson, - from the Mica of the. Ctiletflorearty tit Pitt land, presented an monis oi tM number of mules snide% it which mgt. of Westin to jive &tin op, Lad beta *coed on .be Collectors. .Mr. LUEHINOTON presented an Adkoent of the number of prosecutlens under the Lottery Act. during the tact ts mouths. Mr. BROODEN brought up the Report of the ludernaity Bill, which was received. and the Bill was ordered to be r:ad a third tinie to•morrow. A Petition walpretented from the Connth4oners and Gover nors of he York Lunatic Aly'utu, praying to be exempted front certain provisions contained to the Bill for regulating %lad houses, 110 W before the House. The Saving Dint Dili was, on the motion of Mt. ROTE, eons nti•ted for kl.nsday seunight. MITION FOR IREFARV. A Petition was presented from the county of Kent, praying for Parliamentary Reform. Sir E. KNATCHBULL said, this Petition he was ready to allow, was agreed to at a meeting of several Freeholders, but it was signed only by the High Sheriff for the body. Now he submitted, that by the established rule of the Heu.e, it could only be considered as the petition of the person who Signed it. The SPEAKER said, there were but two ways of signing' petitions. If from bodies corporate their seal was attached, otherwise it could only be received as the petition of the person who signed it. Sir W. GEARY said, the petition was signed for the body present, and at their desire, by the Sheriff. Mr. CALCRAFI' said, the meeting at which this petition was adopted was flighty respectable and, nu. merous, and was signed by the High Sheriff at the request of the meeting. The petition was then read by the Clerk. Sir E. KIIATCHBULL sa►d, when this Petition was proposed and adopted, he neither supported nor :ed it. W►th respect to the petition itself, the Speaker had declared it could only be received as die petition of the individual wbo had signed it. Sir W. GEA RY said, the House had, during the present session, received a Petition from the County of Cornwall, signed by three freeholders forthe rest. Th e SPEAKER. said, what had now passed :hewed the importance of the rule of the House, of which rule no doubt could exist, that a petition could only be taken as the petition of the individuals who signed it, as it might then be known who the individuals were who agreed in the sentiments which the petition contained. Sir C. MONK thought the petition should be taken as the petition of the county. It was only owing to a mistake that it was signed as it had been. Mr. LUSHINGTON was ready to allow it con tained the sense of the Meeting at Maidstone. but he denied that it contained the sentiments of the county of Kent. Mr. PONSONBY asserted that if this petition was not to be considered as conveying the sentiments of the county, it might also be said, that neither did the other act Bane at that Meeting convey the sentiments of the county. Would it be said, that the Address to the Prince Regent oh his escape, and the Vote of Thanks to Lord Camden for relinquishing his sine cure, did not convey the sentiments of t:►e County. Sir E. XNATCHRLILL was ready to allow that both these objects would have met the support of the county ; but as to the Meeting in question, very few of the leading Gentleman in the county had received notice of the requisition calling the meeting. 'Sir W. GEARY and Mr. CALCRAFT said, h was not usual to give •any other notice than that which was given on the present occasion, namely, a notice in the County Paper. The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table. COURTS OF JUSTICE* Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, it was now nearly three years since he submitted to the House the ne cessity of instituting some enquiry into the state of the Courts of Justice, and to revise their fees, to see that the Public were not taxed at a heavier rate than was tair and reasonable. On that occasion he failed. For although he bad reason to think the. House was with hini, his Majesty's Ministers were unfortunately against him. On that occasion one Honourable and Learned Gentleman told him, he bad not sufficient facts to lay before the House; another Honourable and Learned Gentleman accused him of being a visionary anti a dreamer. He afterwards, however, got a vote of the House for the appointment of a Committee. A Report had been made, and was now on the table of the House ; and from that Report it would appear that he was not altogether a visionary or a dreamer. This he would prove by the testimony of the Lord Chancellor himself, who on the 18th ul April, 1815, nine months after the Committee had been appointed, made an order, in theßankrupt department,' abridging many of the holidays ; curtailiwand in some instances entirely excusing the fees; thus proving that the system which had been acted upon for nine years preceding was wrong and op pressi we to the suitors. With respect to the Reports now before the House, he had to complain of many omissions ; one was that the Commissioners appointed to enquire into the Mate of the English Court of Chancery, had neglected to give the aggregate amount of fees at any time ; a circumstance which rendered the Report almost nu• gatory. On a former occasion, an Honourable expedition Learned Gentleman had denied that any tees were ever taken. That assertion was at the time answered by an Honourable and Learned Friend of his, who said, that expedition tees were taken, by which some business was expedited and others re tarded, to the inconvenience, nay ruin, of thosTe suitors who were nut able to pay these expedition fees. The Report of the Commissioners now confirmed the as sertion, that expedition fees were taken. These fees, he contended, and many others, ought to be done away, as the enormous stamp duties and the heavy fees operated at present absolutely to shut the doors of Courts of Justice against the poor suitor. H.• would not now enter into a detail of the evils he had to complain of, but content himself with moving two Resolutions; the.first of which was. in substance, that fees in Courts of Law being iu fact levied on the suitors, should be fixed as low as possible, and should go to a fund to defray the charges of the Court ; and secondly, that a Committee of 21 Members should be appointed 'to inquire into the state of the fees in the se veral Courts of Justice in Great Britain and Ireland. Lord CASTLEREAGH did not consider that the Honourable Gentleman had now made out any grounds for the institutional an inquiry which would• be.sttended with very great expense .to the Public ; or which expense, .perhaps the Honourable Gentle man wasmot aware; one of these Committees of In. quit, in Ireland, since•the Union, had cuss the Public ak 1,1'6'4140,000. He the more particularly °Sleeted to the. institution of any new inquiry, because one was already existing sand sill the result of that.in. quiry should be before the House, he thought no other should be instituted ; and .especialPy as he did not consider a Committee of the House of Comm Ons would be thebest mode of inquiry. Let the Honourable Geotlemaa first see whether the present Commission would not do its duty. The Noble 1.-nd at present at the head of the enure of Chancery had the subject now under his consideration. \Vitae o ly lair own particular fees were concerned,, that Nobl • Lord hid nut hesitated a moment to pot an eod to them ; and he would as soon as possible adopt some stirs 'l3 the whet parts of the Report: That be had not do ie so yet would not astonish any Gentleman, when the diifi culty or the subject he had to digest WAS coosiee:ed. A similar Commission was appointed in 1749, at which time Lord Hardicke was Ch.incell r. A more Active or able man perhaps had never filled the mice of Cl.ancellor ; yet that Noble Lord had ramuired two years to prepare his Report. Upon these grounds it was that he should oppose the present m uiu .. "With respect to the practice of expedition fees bring taken. he certainly must condema it. He thought such practice should exist no longer, and so thought the Commissioners ; for in the Report they load made to the House, they had recommended that this particu lar practice should cease. Under all the circumstances •of the case, lie hoped the Right Iloneurahle Baront t would for the present withdraw his motion, reserving his right to bring it forward again when he should find that the Officers of the Crown did not do their duty. The Noble Lord moved, as an Amendment, the previous question. Mr. PONSON BY ttriught the Hiroo. should adopt his Right Hon. Friend's motion, and 31!11331( a eiim. mittee to :Ake into consideration the It t l y t already before the House. If, however, the N )!.le Lori would new name a time at which the I louse might expect a .Report from the heads of the Departmeot, he would advise his Right Hint. Friend to widniraw his motion; but if no time was fixed, be would him self vote against the motion beilig withdrawn. Mr. L. FOSTER. defended tlre conduct of the Commissioners, and contended that more time was necessary to enable the Chancellor to adopt any mea sures on their Report. . With respect to the increase of fees, a slight increase had taken place in the Six Clerks Office ; but no advance since 1743 in the Sworn Clerks Office, except a slight additional fee given by Lord Erskine's order whilst Chancellor.— He was ot opinion, that a Committee Gt . the House. if appointed upon this Report, would ultimately be to give it up, without coming to any conclu sion upon at ; whilst, if left to the Lord Chancellor. be was persuaded he would, by his general order, re. move nine-tenths of the difficulty. The House might theri take up that which remained, and a supplemen tary Act of Parliament might perhaps be necessary. With respect to the lees of the Lord Chancellor, they were all ancient. There were some fees nominally paid to the Purse bearer and S. cretary, but which. were, in fact, received far leis Lordship; this was the well known practice of the last eighty years, and all the difference which the present Chancellor had made, was, that he had voluntarily given up above ,el,OOO elem to those why actually did the duty. Sir JOHN NEWPORT briefly replied. He said that if the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) would appoint a time at which the objects sought for by the propo sition now before the House could be attained, he would be most happy to withdraw his 'notion ; but he could not by any means agree to an indefinite delay. He added, that those who consbated the in.- stitution of an inquiry in the first instance, now came forward to propose delay. He observed, that per mitting fees in Courts ot Justice to remain so enor mous as they were at present, amounted to nothing less than the total exclusion of the poor from the let nests et law and justice, and confining those advan tages to the rich. .11in (said he) it the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) promises, that 111 a eclectic space of time the Report will be acted on, he (Sir Jahn New port) would trot press the question. Lord CASTLEREAG id said, that it was impos sible for him to give any such pledge. A division then took place, when there appeared, For the Motion, 16—Against it, 63—Majority, 47. Mr. V. FITZGEKALD* seeing a Right Hon. Gentleman in his place, who had stated that the duties on timber in Ireland were higher than in Eng. land, wished him to explein in what manner it aloSe, for he (Mr. Fitzgerald) had originated those duties, aid was not conscious ofethe charge, having .rather favoured Ireland in ;respect to duties on timber. Mr. PONSONBY, in reply, observed, that the duties were unequally levied, and explained the dif ference to have arisen in consequence of the freight of a particular species of timber which was iniportd Into Ireland. HARSH IMPRISONMENT. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY presented a whims from Mich;el Bayley, at present insane, who had been confined more than two years in the Canoligate jail, at Edinburgh, as a common malefactor, in a dungepn, without any adequate cause tor his deten tion. The petition was read, and Prdercd to lie on the table. Mr. BENNETT complained, that sever.il persons in a state of lunacy were confined in the Coldb.st!s fields Prison, though they had been found lunatic by Juries, and were improper objects for a common pr,- son : there iiuglit, he said, to be a place t,t recektion for criminal lunatics. POLICE IN InFLAND. Mr. PLEL adverted to two Acts, passed in the Session oi 1814, for strengtlit'flim lialds of the Civil Power, by establishing an taicient Police. if 1w was called on to say what coul 1 tranquilize Ir.:- land, he should state, an t flicient civil power. It was true, that the Courts of Justice were known in that ..cnntry as in England, but the Goverment had n the aid of an interior police. The means which the Government possessed now, of apprehending offers. dens, and detecting crimes, was by the use of a mili tary force, at no time a very desirable object for the civil power to call in aid . rt lb therefore, he could at a less expense employ an etgicient civil power to npress illicit distilMfes, he tAtAight he should meet the w i s h es o f th e House ; loilt must Le an odious task to the heroes of Watetfoo, to be employed in r the hunting do an of stills. }le wocl 1 therelme mcre for a 13 It to enable the Lord Lieutenant to provide a superintending Magistrate over distur bed d;stricts, and invest tie Government wiqt powers to impose fines in certain cases, and to give relief in others. With respect to the introduction of a Police is land,- which was new within the last thirty or for.y years, it wculd not be prudent to it now,