Star. — London, England, 1817-03-06 00:00:00

previsions were lower than at most others, Ballina, lour persons were killed the other day, and seventeen wounded! The disturbance had its origin in severe distress, and in an apprehension that by any exporta tion of the food they possessed to other places, they would themselves be subjected to famine. This mighebe a mistaken idea, but he was convinced that it had alone given rise to the disturbances. At this early period of the year, sl long before any relief could he expected from the next crop, any deficiency in the supply of food was a calamity of a most se rious nature. Whan he considered that no supplies could be obtained from this island—that in England the crop had been very deficient, and that Scotland had suffered must severely—when he considered that in Ireland the crop was deficient, not only in quantity, but in quality also—that the potatoe crop, that most important part of the food of the people in Ireland, had not only been deficient in quantity, but of such a .quality that it was found impossible to preserve it—it became of the utmost importance to inquire what the amount and state of the food is Ireland actuaUy was, that every practicable measure might be taken to guard against the evils which would result from a deficiency of supply. He should not have ventured on recommending this measure, had he not been in formed by many most respectable persons' in Ireland, some of them Members of that House, that the sup ply of food in Ireland was so inadequate, that the most serious consequences were to be apprehended means were not immediately resorted to for the pur pose of averting them. The object which he had in proposing this inquiry was two-fold—the one was, that a stop might be put to the Distillation of Grain—the other that Government at an early period while it could be done with advantage, might make such purchases, either at home or abroad, as would ensure to the people in Ireland an adequate supply of food during the Summer months. No person was more unwilling than himself that Government should interfere in a subject of this nature—the interference of Government was, he believed, generally mischie vous. The question was, whether the present occasion was such as to form an exception to the rule, and to call for the interference of Government ? On former occasions Government had thought proper to inter fere, and to give orders for procuring from abroad a supply of food adequate to the deficiency. He alluded more particularly to the scarcities of 1800 and 1812. In both these years Government took precautions to avert the calamity of a famine. In 1800, Lord Corn wallis, by sepding orders to Ametica at an early part of the year, provided against the emergency which he foresaw. That year oats were sixteen shillings the barrel. At present oats were twenty-three shillings the barrel. That year oatmeal was twenty-two shil. lings the hundred. This year it was twenty-eight shillings the hundred. In 1800, the crop, though de ficient in quantity, was excellent in quality ; so that the grower was not under the necessity of bringing it immediately to market. But this year the quality was so bad, that there was a necessity for forcing it prematurely to the market. He was aware that the Government of Ireland had, at an early period, en deavoured to ascertain the state of the crop in Ire land ; but when this inquiry took place, much of the crop was still on the ground, nothing of which could be got in, and the potatoe crop was chiefly on the ground. With respect to the efficacy of the measure, for prohibiting distillation, he did not wish to over rate it. The distilleries must have worked pretty nearly the quantity of spirits requisite for the supply of the country. He might be told that if they had distilled nearly the requisite quantity of spirits, little good could be expected from a prohibition to distil ; but it was to be considered that the distillers bad con siderable quantities of grain on hand, which would, in consequence of the prohibition, be thrown into the market. He bad good reason for believing that throughout a great psrt of Ireland there was not three months consumption of food such as the people used. If any thing was to be done in this matter, unquestionably, the sooner it was done the better. The greater the delay, the higher would be the price. If the people were at present unable to purchase at the existing prizes, what would their situation be when the price of provisions was doubled in amount ? The proviaions obtained to meet the deficiency of Ireland ought to be dispersed at a rate within the ability of the people. The rate of labour was at present ex tremely low in Ireland, and all the public works were at a stand. It might be supposed by some. that in calling for an investigation into the subject, from the time which would be taken up in the investigation, the object which he had in view would be defeated ; but he was confident that the importance of the sub ject would force on a quick investigation. He con cluded with moving for a prompt investigation into the amount and state of human fond in Ireland, with a view to determine whether it might be expedient to atop she distillation from grain in Ireland. Mr. PEEL was most willing to admit that there was aothiok in the manner in which this subject had been taken up by the Honourable Gentleman opposite cal culated to embarrass the Government either of this country or of Ireland, or to produce an undue im. premien on the public mind. And if by the agita don of the subject in the House that sort of salutary s p r o soos t oo should bejroduced which might lead to a more sparing use •F Masan food, so far from being prejudicial, it aright be productive of consider able advaxs. 'MS Was die very last subject re-, spuds& Government ought to suffer them selm to be unduly actuated by public impressions. Government ought not even to be actuated by the impressions of boom and well meaning men, who bad not the same means of information as them selves. If they were satisfied that the stopping of the distilleries would not be productive of such advan tages as would compensate for the mischief resulting from such a measure, they ought to resist it. He agreed with the Honourable Gentleman, that if a stoppage of the distilleries could increase the supply o f food, every consideration merely of a financial na ture ought to give way. The loss of revenue, from the encouragement which would be given to illicit distillation, from the cessation of legal distillation was not to be put in competition with the subsistence of the people. The first thing to be considered was, first, if there was reason to apprehend a deficiency of the supply of human food in Ireland ? and, secondly, if there was season for apprehending a deficiency, Whether a prohibition of distillation would have a tendency to increase the supply? He thought be should be able to satisfy the Honourable Gentleman and the House that a prohibition of distillation would not lead to the result which he anticipated frdm it.— The question was not merely whether they would prohibit distillation in Ireland ? The trade with this island was free, and consequently such a prohibition would give to the English distiller a preference in the Irish market. He might be told, indeed, that it was possible to stop also the intercourse between the two countries. But would it be expedient not merely to stop all legal distillation in Ireland, but also to sus pend all intercourse between the two countries in ar ticles the produce of either ? But he would confine himself to the question, whether the prohibition of distillation was likely to have the effect of leading to an increase in the supply of food ? In the first place, he would agree with the Honourable Gentleman that the supply of last harvest was not so defective in quantity as quality. This was best proved by the variations in the prices of the same article. Accord-. ing to the last market note which he had received from Dublin, oats varied from eight shillings to 225. the barrel, wheat from twenty-one shillings to ninety , two shillings, and barely from fourteen shillings to thirty-eight shillings. If they were to deprive the small farmers of the market for their inferior grain, which could only be worked up in the distilleries, they would only aggravate the distress of the coun try. A very considerable portion of the food of last crop could not be converted into human subsistence. With respect to the probable savings of food from the stoppage of distillation, he would leave the House to judge what increase of supply could be expected from this source. The quantity of spirits distilled last year in Ireland, on which ditty was paid, amounted to 3,600,000 gallons. From the circumstances of the times, by which all ranks, high and low, were affected, a diminution in the amount of this year was to be expected. The power of purchasing luxuries in high and low was abridged; though whiskey could not be considered in the light of a luxury to the lower orders. In that damp climate, and from long habit, it was almost an article of the first necessity.— By a Return which would be laid before the House to-morrow—and he begged to call the attention of the House to this point—a Return which was brought up to the sth of February, a complete month having since elapsed, it appeared that the quantity distilled this year amounted to 2,000,000 gallons. It appeared, therefore, that up to the sth of February, two-thirds of the quantity of last year were already distilled; and he had not the least doubt, but that before the present motion could be acted on the whole stock of spirits would be made. For, in any regulation affect ing the distilleries, it would always be necessary to allow them to work up the quantity of gritin bought by them, and unfit for any other purpose. It should be borne in mind, in speaking of distillation from grain, that the whole of the corn so employed was not lost to the purposes of supporting life. It was calculated that four barrels of grains, after the spirit had been extracted, would go as far in that way as one barrel of corn, so that it might be reckoned, that one quarter of the grain so employed was not lost to the purposes of subsistence, but went to increase the quantity of pork or milk, or other articles available to food. It should also be considered, that one of the evils attending the stoppage of the regular distilleries would be the stimulus thus given to illegal distilla- Ition, which would probably cause on the whole an increase of the consumption of corn. As a proof that no scarcity of grain was su ffi cient to put an end to this illegal distillation, he should only mention what had occurred in the North of Ireland, where the di.. tress had been most peculiarly felt. In Ireland, he should observe in passing, a partial distress, however severe, was not indicative of a general scarcity, as nsight be proved by the difference of the prices in different parts of that island at present, they being actually double in some places what they were in others. This arose from the want of those facili ties of internal communication which existed in this country, and also from the circumstance, that persons were generally in the habit of raising the food fur their own families, so that there were none of those great markets so common in England. In the North of Ireland, where, he had observed, the distress was greatest, there were 200 prosecutions for what were called Still-fines (penalties imposed on townships on account of illicit stills found within their limits for prosecution) in one county. They had heard much said in the last Session (and justly) of the severity of the laws against illicit distillation. But if, as thus appeared, these severe Jaws had not been effectual to prevent illicit distillation, the House might judge what the effects would be, if a further stimulus was given to . that practice. The effect, be thought, would be, that the illegal distiller, thus receiving encourage ment, would work up even good corn, which the re gular distiller abstained from using. The illicit dis tiller, in producing a given quantity of spirits, con sumed one-third of grain more than the regular dis tiller, from want of capital and skill. He was likely, too. to use the best 'ern, because he would not run a greater risk of discovery. When it was to be consi dered, that, in addition to the other circumstances. it would be at least a month before the stoppage could be effected, he was persuaded the proposed measure would not save one barrel of corn. As to the recom mendation of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. M. Fitzgerald) to the Irish Government, to consider the question attentively, he (Mr. Peel) could assure the House that they had not been inattentive to the ques tion : but as to the inquiry with a view to the stop page of Distillation, he decidedly objected to the measure, because such an inquiry as it would alarm the distillers, would cause them to take all measures to increase their present distillation, and also t o sub mit the CM is their possession, or which they could procure, to such processes as would render it unfit for any other purposes bet distillation. What could prevent them while this inquiry was going on, from visaing all the grain in their possession, or setting all the mills in the country at work ? On these grounds be conceived the motion would produce misthief ra ther than good. He should add, that the Irish Go vernment had taken all practicable means in its power to obviate the dangers of scarcity, especially by taking oa themselves the responsib;lity of admitting Ameri can Hour, which the letter of the law did not permit. The Government bad thought fit to admit it by a Treasury Order, not so much for the purpose of con sumption alone, but for the purpose of mixing with the flour or inferior grain. The Right Hon. Gentle. 'I man concluded by apologising for so long occupying the time of the House—(Hear, hear.) ' Sir J. NEWPORT observed, that till he bad heard the observations of de Right Honourable Gentleman, be had doubt whether or nos Govern ment ought to itarfere. But now he was so im pressed by what had fallen from him upon the pre sent occasion, that he had no longer any doubts, and was of opinion that no measure that could now be taken would increase the quantity of human food, but rather have a contrary tendency. Much of the tern on hand could be applied only to distillation, and was unfit for the purposes of human food. The farmer was now employed in sowing his spring corn, , and should he be unable to find a market for his un sound corn, would not be able to purchase a suffi cient quantity for the next year, and thus the next crop be materially injured, and no good be done at present. Though he in general deprecated legislative interference in such matters, yet he should not hesi tate to have recourse to it, if he apprehended a scar city. He would recommend it to his Honourable Friend to withdraw his motion. Much good would be done when it was seen that the Executive Govern ment and Parliament were in unison• upon the sub ject, and no additional supply of food would be pro cured by acceding to the motion. Sir R. FERGUSSON said, that as a part of Scotland was in a condition not less distressing than Ireland, he should take this opportunity of calling the attention of his Majesty's Ministers to that part of the kingdom. From letters which he had received from the Highlands, it appeared that the crops had almost entirely tailed ; and what they would do in the summer before the harvest came in, the people did not know; they apprehended, indeed, little less than famine. It was -impossible in some places fur the farmers to find corn to put in the ground. He had forwarded several petitions through the Secretary of State to the Prince Regent, ior the prohibition of distillation from grain—one particularly from a most respectable body of men, the fumes of Fifeshire, who petitioned much against their own interests, merely from a feeling for the distresses of the people. On that question he should say nothing ; but should suggest to the Ministers the necessity of inquiries re specting the quantity of food in the Highlands. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that Ministers would not have done their duty had they not done all in their power to procure accurate information. Nothing had been left undone on the part of the Irish Government. In Scotland a moderate supply of grain would be of much service. The object of interference on the part of Government should be, to procure a communication betwixt one part of the country and another, and it might be ne cessary to look at the state of the Highlands. Both Government and Parliament were generally too ready to interfere on such occasions —(/her, hear) ; and of the immense sums formerly expended in this way, a great part had bees thrown away. It had only served to promote the interest of the importers. The bid quality, and not the deficiency in quantity, of grain, was the cause of the distress; and the great difference in the prices :hewed that part of it could only be em ployed in the purposes of distillation. Mr. BARING agreed rith the Right Hon. Gen tleman as to the general impolicy of interference on the part of Government, and hoped it would be at tended to in future. The best plan would be to leave the intercourse open. Corn had been sent from this country to France, where the price had nearly doubled. Much corn had been brought from the warehouses wheie it had been deposited, in consequence or the provisions of that most valuable measure the Corn Bill. The only interference that could take place in the event of great distress, would be the suspension of the distilleries, and though -that measure might not be of any service now, it might have been pro ductive of advantage had it been resorted to at an earlier period. General MITCHEL stated, that in Belfast the price of barley was so low that it could only be em ployed in distillation. Mr. CALVERT was desirous of learning why the corn in the possession of the distillers could not be applied to other purposes ? He did not see why corn, either ground or whole, could not be applied to the purposes of human food. Mr. PEEL observed in answer, that the corn in the possession of the distillers was subjected to a pro cess, that in a great measure, though not wholly, I made it unfit to be made use of as food. As to cl - dilation from sugar, every one Who was acquainted v ith the character of the Irish peasant knew well, that he would not consume much whiskey made from sugar, when he could have recourse to that made from illicit distillation. Mr. CALVERT said, that in England scarcely one-filth of the corn used in distilleries was malted. Mr. V. FITZGERALD stated, that the grain in the hands of the brewers underwent the process of crushing. The illicit distillation was from malt only. On the sth of February 235,000 gallons of whiskey had been distilled, which Was more than two-thirds of what was required for the annual supply ; which chewed that an earlier suspension would not have an swered the end. Distillers had been the only put. chasers of the unsound grain for distillation. Mr. BARING wished to know why the distilleries ' had not been stopped in October last e Mr. PEEL stated, that the distilleries did not be gin to work till November, and that the Government had no power to suspend them. -But admitting that the distilleries might have (wen suspended, Govern ment certainly had no power to suspend an Act of the Union, permitting intercourse between the two countries; and without the suspension of that Act the suspension of the distiller*, would be of no benefit. Mr. M. FITZGERALD ( Knight of Kerry) would not press a division, as his object was attained, in having brought the subject before the House, and in the discussion it had undergone. if Government apprehended a danger of scarcity, they would, no doubt, stop the distilleries, and make the grain avail. able for food. The malt in the distilleries was from raw grain, and of that food could be made. In the Resent price of oats there was no temptation to the illicit against the legal distiller. With the leave of the House he should withdraw the Motion. The Motion was accordingly withdrawn. NEW COINAGE. Mr. BROUGHAM, seeingia Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. W. Pole) in place, would move for copies of all letters received by the Chancellor of the Exchequer from Magistrates in the country on the subject of the new coinage, and also all commu nications made either by the Chancellor of the Ex chequer or the Master of the Mix, on the subject of I the exchange of old silver currency. He ?t.! -• • informed that one of the regulations issued from .1• thority was, that all smooth shifting. of stand .• • fineness should be received, and that thh rule h.: been departed from, to the serious 1 04 „, n ,,„ 3 . viduals. With respect to the new silver correac.• he could not but applaud the celerity with which t had been distributed through the cou ntr y. B ut b e . thought a Igent evil existed, which might he felt ew tensively after a while. It arose from there t•ein.. two species of money of different standards in th hands of the public at the same time —the Bar dollars, which were of the nominal value of 6s. 8 per ounce, from the price of silver mien they sees. issued, and the new coinage, which Was at the nu minhl value of .ss. 6d. only. Had he been eskeh for his opinion upon this paint before :he recent issue, he should have said that one would drive the teller from circulation, that that of the lowest n ((((( inal value would have disappeared, and the other resintri• But esperience had shewn that such a consequence could not fairly be predicted; for notwitt ste a ling the facilities which existed, at least in neihhboticiti r countries, to destroy and melt down the new coin, no part of it, he believed, had disappeared. Ac t u r : l material difference existed between the dollar and the new money circulation, he thought the doll?..• nti•.!•l be regarded as a promissory metallic note, hlheli . da. Bank would pay at some time or other i s so current coin—(Hear, hear.) It might sii.: new coin was sate, because persons heuld rat. e: m ; bullion, as they would thereby get sd. than by destroying the currency ; btu wthr. .ei.to • was there that silver would not rise t. the mica which it was some time ago. namely. 74. per het , or thereabout? Gold had finetuarcd between and £5 I Is. not a great while ago, e.hile tt .„ r price was under £1; and a propo.tienat e tittc.o-i; • might happen in the price of silver, at :::.• tree money would be iihble to tne same t!, . • which had carried off nearly the whole or I:. currency. The new silver money would he long as silver did not rise trona Ss. Id. to 51,0 t. ss. 6d. foe at that price there would th r. ment to melt it, but let it get a pettily • .. . pence still higher in the ounce, and it begin to slide out of circulation—Wear, /war, It was the opinion of a predecessor of die Rig a 1i •- nourable Gentleman, certainly a man nut w highly connected, or of so much political importance and high attainments, but still a man whose opinions acre worthy of some attention ; it was the opinion of Sir Isaac Newton that 3d. in the guinea wad end ingee the circulation; but now, if the price of silver slihold rise as before, about Is. 6d. in ss. or 6s. in the guitha, ,the danger to the circulation would he imnsiaent.— ' Now the Bank, with one stroke of the pen, could send the whole out of circulation, by the issue of a 1:11:4C amount of paper money. If, in tact, they were to da now as they had done before, the whole would be gone. He did not mean to speak di:respe:ttully oil the Honourable Director.: ; ind:ed, he respected them so much that he feared them. (Lear, bar, .teat a Jaark.) Such were the interencei whica he had drawn on the subject, and he thought it right to this to them out in the beginning, before the mi.ctrel cane upon the ceuntiy. To him it appeased neccscity, therefore, that some measures should he adopt d with respect to the Bank, which might tend protein the evil, or rather, in the more popular language on this subject, that the Bank should be let alone, that the restriction should be removed, and the Directors be allowed to pay all demands in specie. (Hear, /her.) There was another point, certainly of interior impor tance, upon which he should say a few words. it was a general opinion, that there was a great detect on the head side of the die, the likeness of his MA. jesty was' extremely bad; in fact, it was no I:kcne - as at all, and was very inferior in execution ; bet to make up for this imperfection, there was an sciditioa on the reverse, he believed, which, though not cbciou; to the naked eye, might be seen with a magnitying glass. This was the insertion of the R• +t !loin et - able Gentleman's cypher W.W.P. med.:, it Put urna the coin of the realm— (Hear, hem., and a /el,- 5 4). — This he believed was a new device, the use of wu eh, whatever tumult', it reflected, was due to the Rivi.; Honour:46:e Gentleman. lie believed there teas ric• thing an the kind done by Sir Isaac Newton. P. haps, however, it might be urged, that tne Honourable Gentleman was not twiny II:1'0111W • .1 by precedent ; because, as was well k a ewn, it a• as one of the astich:s of impeachment against Caratin:•l Wilsey, ;hit lie had introduced his Cardinal's lo .t on the King's coin ; but he (Mr. Brougham) sl.e. not wish to cart) , matters so far against the Kiwi . ... Honourable Gentleman—( Hear, /oar, ond a I j. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman can:mfr.: by moving for copies of all letters from in the country to the Chancellor of the Tier, on the subject of the new coin. Mr. W. W. POLE was rather surprised t h tt the common courtesy of the House had not induced ti's Honourable and Learned Member (Mr. Brougi.arr.) to take another method of gaining any infer he wanted. than that which he now adopted. lh• (Mr. W. W. Pole) should have had no objection t•• have answered him any question, or given information which was in his power, am' c..nsis . • 7. with his duty. He had been in the nottia on s :•"• occasions since the Honourable an 4 Learned ,7:tr.• . ! before alluded to this subject, and was re:•dy t • ry. him on it. But, instead of taking such opt the Honourable and Learned M:inbes nitv cat: • • • ward and made a very uncalled for att , rl , : r 4 (Mr. W. W. Pole). If he understood t'e.. 10•-• of the Honourable and Learned Member, it h . +. • - copies of all correspondence which passed ththe Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Mehhh. ; the country, respecting the issue and debt , " new coin. To this he should say, tha: it ' respondence took place it was unknown . f ••• . that this was the first time he ever heard • 'and Learned Member seemed to think h instructions and rules were given to the which were complied with in the issue of the 7 s coinage, and that such rules were calcalve.l to • • • the subject. lie should again observe, that i. rules cr instructions were given, be vas not a-•.• • them, and he did net think they were :rat at..' There were indeed some instructions sent b 7 (Mr. W. Pole) to the several persons who had t'••. - perintendance of the delivery. They we., most : • • fully complied with, and the manlier .•i the sevehel places at the 3411 C time, 1 - • had given humid aatialhhtiun—(lfear, n. 1 I • •il