Star. — London, England, 1821-05-22 00:00:00

Bill. He asked if there wore not boroughs, of which the right of representation rested in a single indivi= dual? and no attempt was made to take away the right which that individual possessed. But with re spect to Grampound, where the right appeared to be Tested in thirty-two persons, it was contended that every such right should be taken away. Was there any justice in this ; and could a greater concession be made to the Radical Reformers ? - The Bill was un just in its nature, and mischievous in its consequences. The Marquis of CAMDEN considered this Bill *s tending to establish a new principle, to which he never could agree; and he would not alter the mode of legislation which had been adopted on other oc casions. On these grounds he would vote for the Amendment. The question was then put for leaving out the words, according to the proposed Amendment of the Lone Cnsticat.t.oa, on which the House divided. The numbers for the Clause, as it now stands in the Bill, were _ _ _ _ • Fixate Loan Caraweaszon's Amendment - 26 Majority for the Disfranchisement - -34 The Earl of LIVERPOOL then observed, that he saw no reason why the ri;ht of Election should be transferred to Leeds ; and if it was, he deprecated the mode in which the right of Election was proposed to be granted. Instead of this invidious and injurious mode, he should propose, as the best course, to add two more Members to the Cqpnty of York, by trans ferring the right from GranTpound to that County —(Hear, hear). His Lordship concluded with moving a clause to that effect. The Earl of CARNARVON said, that although there were many defects in this Bill, and although he should prefer it as it already stood, yet sooner than lose the advantage of such a measure, he should acquiesce in the Amendment of the Noble Earl. The Earl of HAREWOOD said, that very great inconvenience, and heavy, expense to Candidates, would arise in the County of York from the proposed addition of two more Members to represent it. . The Marquis of LANSDOWN concurred in the statement of the Noble Earl who spoke last ; but he thought that all the inconvenience would be removed by having two Members to represent the West Riding, and the two others the remaining part of the County, and if the provision for transferring the right to Leeds were left out, he hoped a mode of this kind would be adopted. Earl FITZWILLIAM declared, that the addition of two Members to the County of York would be a great inconvenience. Lord REDESDALE thought it would be better to divide the County of York. The proposition for adding two more Members to the County of York was then put and carried. The Bill having passed through the Committee, the Report was ordered to he brought up to-morrow ; and that the Bill be printed in its amended form. It is to be read a third time on Thursday next. At Half-past Ten the House adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. Idaxwitt.a obtained leave of absence for Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON, for ten days. Mr. MACKENZIE presented a Petition from the Proprie tors of Land in the County of Selkirk, against the Scotch Juries' Bilk—Ordered to lie on the table. ?.tr. T. W I I.SON presented a Petition from the Merchants and Traders on the River Thames, against the London Wharfs Bill. The Petitioners urged, that as the Rill projected an alte ration in a trade, it ought, in contormity with Standing Order No. 2, to have been submitted to a Private Committee, pre viously to being introduced to the Ifouse.—Laid on the table. The House then went into a Committee on the London Wharfs Bill. _ _ _ _ After a few words from Sir J. Vow, Mr. CALM; Mr. Et.us, and Mr. P. 3looar, a division was called for upon one of the Clauses. Although strangers were ordered to withdraw, no division took place ; and urn their re-admission to the Gal lery, they found the Sreacsa in the Chair. Mr. D. BROWNE obtained leave to bring in a Bill to pro mote the Inland Navigation of Ireland. Mi. DENISON presented a Petition from the Churchwar dens and Inhabitants of Mitcham, in Surrey, against the New. ington Vestry Bill. Lord W. BENT' NCK postponed his motion relative to Si. cily, till the Sib of June. Mr. HUTCHINSON presented a Petition from Robert Barry, one of the Coroners for the County of Tipperary, against the Irish Coroners' Bill. Mr. ELLICE presented a Petition from several persons who h.4cl been discharged from their situations as Tide-waiters in the Custom-house, for improperly accepting fees. The Honourable Gentleman stated, that many of the Petitioners had held their offices for upwards of 2.5 years, and many of them for more than 40 years. The Petitioners prayed that, as they were totally unable to obtain their livelihood, the House would take their case into consideration. Sir WILLIAM CURTIS observed, that he had male some inquiry respecting the characters of the Petitioners, and had found them to be respectable.--The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table. SUPPLY. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mowed the Order of the day for the House going into a Committee of Supply. On the question for the SPEAKER leaving the Chair, Mr. CREEVEY said, before going into the Com mittee of Supply, he must call the attention of the House to an item in the Estimates for fortifications in Bar badges, the sum of 125,900. The objection he had to this sum was, that there was already a fund for that purpose—he meant the four and a half per cent. Leeward Island duties. It was true, he had given a notice on this subject—(l/ear, hear)—Gentle meh might cry 'Hear; but he would ask how, though he had already given a general notice on this sub ject, he could to-night agree to grant this sum in supply, which ought to be taken from another fund?l Ile would now move that the entry of the 16th of March, 1701, be read—EThe entry'was read, and stated a Resolution of the House of that day, for an Address to her Majesty Queen Anne, stating that the four and a half per cent. was granted for the purpose of keeping in repair the fortifications of Barbadoes and the Leeward Islands; a subsequent entry was also read, by which it appeared that her Majesty did direct that the fund should be so applied].—Mr.l Creevey resumed. He was aware that this fund was now applied in a different manner; it was now con sumed in pensions to Ladies and Gentlemen in this town, and to Members of Parliament in particular. He was aware, in any inquiry he might move into the appropriation of this fund, he should have those Ladies and Gentlemen against him. He must also, on this occasion, advert to the manner in which the present Estimates were voted. The last three or four motions had been carried entirely by official men— either by men holding offices themselves, or having some one connected with them who did hold such situations, and he knew he should have the four and a half per cent. Gentlemen voting for thenuelves! So in the case of the votes the other night for Lords of the Admiralty, the three Lords of the Admiralty voted for their own salaries, thus declaring their own opinion that their services were 'worth £l,OOO a-year , each. That it was contrary to the established usages of the House that Members should vote on questions in which they were themselves interested, was clearly laid down by Mr. Hatsell, who in his book cited the case of the Duke of Somerset's Estate Bill, in 1604, when a member of the Seymour family, a Member also of the House, was restrained from voting, on the ground that he had an interest. Another case laid down by Mr. Hatsell, regarded a question re lating to Great Yarmouth. A Member of the House at that time (Sir T. Preston) was held interested in that measure, and the House suggested the propriety of his withdrawing; which suggestion, as Mr. Hat sell said, in compliance with common decency, was adopted. He thought the old practice should be ad hered to, and that Gentlemen ought not to be al lowed to vote for the sums from which they them ielves were to derive a benefit. His Honourable Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, was labouring alone and single-handed against the united power of Government, and he was desirous, of shewing the House and the country the imperfect machinery with which his Honourable Friend was obliged to work. With respect to the present subject, he would now propose a Resolution, which he thought no man could oppose. If any one did oppose it, he could only say he was at a loss to know how his understanding was constructed. He concluded by moving a Resolution; a That, in the Estimates now before the House, it appeared that there was an item of £5,000 for repairing the fortifications at Barbadoes; and whereas it appeared that the four and a half per cent. Leeward Island duties were granted for the purpose of repairing those fortifications, and that therefore the House ought' not to vote this sum in the Ordnance Estimates, which was pro vided for in another fund." Sir CHARLES LONG denied that the four and a half per cent. Leeward Island fund was granted for the purposes the Honourable Gentleman said.— The Honourable Gentleman's arguments might ap ply, perhaps, to Barbadoes; but with regard to the other Islands, the grant was a free unshackled grant' to the Crown, and had been applied for a century past as it was now employed, and regularßeturns had been laid before Parliament on the subject ; and it was a little too much for the Honourable Gentle man now to come forward and call on the House to alter that course which they had sanctioned fur a century. year after year. Besides this, the Honour able Gentleman should have stated to the House that the situation of Barbadoes was now changed'. 'lie original grant was simply for the defence of the Island ; but we have now changed the situation of the Island, and made it a depot; and there was not a single lawyer of eminence who had held the situa tion of Attorney or Salicitor-General for the last cen tury who had not been decidedly of opinion this fund was legally applied, as it was now applied. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT wished to consider this question► fairly. He agreed with the Right Honour. able Gentleman, that there might be a difference of opinion as to whether this fund should be applied to Barbadoes or not; but one thing he would ask, sup pose it was not intended that this fund should be ap plied to the use of the Island of Barbadoes, was it ever intended to be applied to corrupt Members of the House? But the Right Honourable Gentleman said the Attornies and Solicitors-General of the last century had all sanctioned this grant, and the House had never interfered. This observation seemed to recognize the right of the House to interfere, and the only question now was, whether the time for the inter ference of the House had arrived ? He, for one, thought it had, and hoped the House would not suffer it to be lost, but adopt the motion now before it. Mr. GOULBL'RN defended the present mode of appropriating the fund in question. The construc tion of the law, as given by the lion. Gentleman, was not the correct one; and this was apparent even from the conduct of the Assembly of the Island of Barbadoes itself, which for many years subsequent to the passing this Act, were in the practice of voting annually a certain sum from their own taxes, for the repair of the fortifications of the Island. Mr. MONCK said, it never could have been the intention of those who gave the Crown this large fund that the whole of it should be given away ►n pensions. The Honourable Gentleman said Parlia ment had now suffered this fund to pass for upwards of a century, and therefore they ought not now to interfere with it. If this argument was well founded, it would have applied to the Droits of Admiralty ; and the wholesome Bill of last Session on that sub ject would not have been passed. The Honourable Gentleman said, the situation of the Island of Bar badoes was altered; so also were the circumstances and situation of this Island. We have now, for the first time, a National Debt of upwards of. 800 mil lions, and the People were overwhelmed with debts and taxes. The Government, therefore, ought to be the more economical : it WAS only by adopting the strictest economy that faith with the public creditor could be preserved, or that the People could support the burthens of the State. The House then divided, For the Motion - 58 Against it - - 86 Majority against the Motion - —29 The House then went into a Committee. On the re-admission of strangers, :qr. Mores: was on his legs, adverting to what passed list Session re specting the Coronation. He said that it would be in the recollection of the House, that in the last Session of Parliament, the sum of tlOO,OOO had been voted for the purpose of defraying the expenses of the Co ronation. That vote had been passed under circum stances very different from those which existed at pre- 1 sent. At that time it was not known whether her Majesty would retutn to this country, and he there fore conceived that the expenses of the Coronation had been calculated under the idea that she would not be present at it. He, therefore, wished the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to give him an answer to two ques tions, on which every person felt a deep interest who was at all solicitous for the honour of the Royal Fa mily. The,first question was, whether any provision had been made for the part which her Majesty was to have in the ensuing Coronation ? and the second was, whether any, and what additional expense would be incurred, in consequence of her presence in that ceremonial? He had beard a rumour—but it was so scandalous that. he could not attach the slightest cre dit to it—that while seats and accommodations were being provided for the Peeresses, not any were being provided for her Majesty—(Hear). Her Majesty was as much Queen of the country as his Majesty was King—(Cheers from the Opposition)—and was cer tainly entitled to some consideration on so important an occasion. Any vote for such a ceremonial, how ever large 'it might be, would be willingly acceded to by the country, if her Majesty were allowed to form a part in it ; but if she were not—if the vote was to be expended in mere party-purposes—and if a Grand National Fete were to be converted into an engine for the humiliation and degradation of the Queen—(Hear)—the Public would be so far from granting the expenses of it willingly, that he did not know of any measure which would be more univer sally unacceptable to the country, however it might be considered by the Members of that douse (Hear). The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob jected to giving any answer to a question which was put with so much irregularity. The Committee was at present engaged upon a grant for defraying the expenses of the Artillery; and the Hon. Gentleman put to him a question relative to the expenses' of the Coronation. He did not well know how these subjects 'were connected together. With respect to the ex pense of the Coronation, and whether it would ex ceed the sum voted last year, all he could say was, that he did not intend, during the present Session, to propose any additional vote. Mr. MONCK had always understood, .that any question respecting Expenditure, was regular in a Committee of Supply. The Right Hon. Member had declined to answer his question, and he hoped it would be put by some Gentleman of more weight and importance than himself in the House. Mr. FUME said, the Right Hon. Gentleman had given but half an answer to his Hon.Yriend's ques tion. lie would now put another. The Right lion. Gentleman had said, no further sum would be re quired in the present Session; he would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, whether any further sum would be asked in any future Session ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he could not give any decided answer to that ques tion, until he knew the amount of the whole expenses —(Hear, hear, from Me Opposition Benches).—One hundred thousand pounds had been thought sufficient in the last Session of Parliament ; but when the Ac counts were made up, there might perhaps be . a fur. ther sum required. Mr. BENNETT commented on the observations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the ques tion of the lion. Member (Mr. Monck) was irregular. —lle denied that there was any irregularity in the question. The good wholesome practice of our' an cestors was never to vote any Supplies till they had a list of grievances before them. The practice of giving long notice of motions was a modern practice, )prom which be did not consider any good had re sulted to the People, but the contrary ; it was, in his opinion, the practice adopted by our ancestors which has secured to the People their.liberties. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, the last Hon. Member had stated correctly what had been the ancient practice of the House, and Parliament would determine which was the most convenient and advantageous to the Public, that, or the practice now pursued. Another Hon. Member had gone a round about way to put a question on another subject con nected with the Coronation. In reply to that ques tion, he had only to say that, by law, it was discre tionary with the Sovereign to call, or to omit to do so, as he should think fit, the Queen Consort to the honours of the Coronation. Her Majesty was, cer tainly, in the eye of the law, Queen Consort, but his Majesty was at liberty to use his discretion on the subject of her Coronation ; and he had no hesitation in stating that himself, and his Majesty's other con fidential servants, were not prepared to advise his Majesty to exercise that discretion by calling her Majesty to the Coronation. He would only add, that he should be fully prepared to take his full share of responsibility for the advice he considered it his duty to give his Majesty, and to answer any motion which Gentlemen in their discretion, or rather in their indis cretion, might think fit to bring forward—(Hear). Mr. BROUGHAM, did not expect this question would have been brought forward on the present occasion. As to what had been said of the law, and the discretionary power of the King, by the Noble Lord, he would not now enter into the question, but he begged he might not be understood, as assenting, by his silence, to the doctrine of the Noble Lord.— Here the subject drops. The Resolution for granting £94,356 for Artillery, Dragoons, Garrisons, and Batteries , being passed, Mr. HUME said, he plan adopted at the end of the American war, that each battalion should consist of ten companies, would effect a saving of £25,000, by the reduction of the Staff, and a diminution of the half-pay ; and that would be the case even if it were necessary to keep up such a numerical force. He thought the force might be reduced to six battalions. He should move that £25,000 be deducted from the grant. In the present Estimates many things had been introduced that had never been done before. Mr. WARD said, that it had teen thought better to retain the Officers, and to part with the gunners, on account of the experience and science necessary in an Artillery Officer. That had been the view of the late and also of the present Master-General of the Ordnance.—A greater number of Officers was ne cessary on account of the Artillery Corps being more widely dispersed than regiments of the line. Mr. HUME stated, that after fifteen or twenty years service, an Artillery Officer would not learn anything in the present state of inactivity. The ques tion was not one of efficiency, but of expense, in the present state of the country. Sir U. BURGH said, that in the Peninsula war a Captain of Artillery had the command of a Lieute nant-General, in consequence of the age of the supe rior Officer. At the battle of Waterloo, Sir G.Wood, only a Lieutenant-Colonel, had the command of the Artillery for the same cause. He must oppose the motion of the Hon. Member. The Artillery Corps had been already reduced by 22,000 men, and no further reduction was practicable, consistently with the good of the service. Mr. BENNETT deprecated the idea of arguing from a state of war to one of peace. The sole ques tion was, what was necessary in the present state of the country ? There was something radically bad in the system, that made it necessary that a Captain should perform the functions of a Lieutenant-General, and such a system ought to be new modelled. Mr. WARD said, that the number of Officers and men in 1792 had been 3763 ; but had we then the Colonies we have now, the number would hate b een 5713, nearly the present establishment. Mr. HUME only proposed that the Officer s e f three battalions should be placed on half-pay. The Committee divided—For the Amendment, 1.; —Against it, 43—Majority, 28. The next Vote was for £31,812 tor the Royal Horse Artillery of Great Britain for 1821. £17,590 for the Corps of Royal Artillery Drive rs . £8,377 was moved for the pay of the Medical Establishment of the Ordnance. Mr. HUME said, that the expense of the Medical Establishment had been increased ninefold since 174 There was a Director-General, with a salary of 1,095, whose duties he could not understand. Mr. WARD said, there had been no Medical E.t. a !, lishment in 1792 ; but country practitionershad be e* hired, wherever the corps had been stationed. ri mt had been found inconvenient, and it was much better to carry a Medical Establishment along with the corps ; 4,000 persons had the benefit of the Medical Establishment at Woolwich. No limits were set to the attendance of the Medical Establishment. Mr. HUME stated, that the expense at If ooluich exceeded that of the Medical Board. The whole 1.4 been a late Institution. He should move that £3,7:6 be deducted from the Vote. Sir U. BURGH defended the original sum. Sir J. YORKE thought the Director• General m o f be dispensed with. A division took place .—For the Amendment, lc_ Against it, 47—Majority, 29. The next sum was L:6610 for the Royal Academy at Woolwich. Mr. HUME stated, that the expense of the Cadets at this Academy was most enormous. He •au nq use in educating young men at this e.tablishme7— when it was impossible to provide them with com. missions ; as out of 37 Cadets, nine only could iv provided for in that way. Sir U. BUIR;11 stated, that the number of Cad:.:s had been reduced from 180 to 130. Mr. HUME was of opinion, that the numl er of Ca dets should be reduced to 40 or .50—(Hear).—Atal events, the number should not exceed 100. Eighz thousand pounds had been already voted for the Aca demy. He should move that this sum be reduced to £3305, for the Civil Officers, Professors, and AListers. Mr. WARD said, that b)‘ the arrangement now adopted, the number of disposeable Commissim would be doubled. Mr. HUME said, that many of the Cadets were put on the half-pay, which was a complete abuse of that establishment, and a dead weight on the Pubic. 13y the original rules of the service, none could be put on the half-pay till after a service of some years. After some observations from Mr. WARD, Mr. BERNAL, Sir H. HARDINGE, Sir U. BURGH, Mr. Hymn, and Mr. BENNETT, the Committee divided: —For the Amendment, 20—Against it, 63. The sum of £I4SS was moved for fees on account of the Ordnance Estimates for 1821. Sir H. PARNELL objected to the way in which the accounts were kept. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the fees came back to the Public in another shape. Sir J. NEWPORT thought a new plan should be adopted, if it was only to prevent the necessity of ex planations. Mr. HUME said, he had moved for a Return of all the fees paid at the Public Offices, and under what authority. The sooner the fees were done away the better. Sir C. LONG said, that the fees were authorized by Mr. Burke's Act. The surplus of the fees went to the Consolidated Fund.—The sum was finally car ried without a division. The sum of £39,124 was moved for the balance of Eztraordinaries for the Ordnance for 1821. Mr. HUME lamented, that the particulars of this great sum had not been given to the House. The whole expense of any Colony should be given to the House. He could not tell why he was called upon to vote a sum for Gibraltar, when £25,000 were pro• vided for the repairs of that Garrison ; neither did he see the grounds of the vote for Malta, the lonia Islands, and Heligoland ; the expense of which this year would amount to £ll,OOO. A large sum WU also demanded for Gravesend. Two labourers fcc Tilbury Fort were charged at Ll,lOO a-year. A saving of £7OO a-year might be made by having contract to carry troops over from Tilbury Fort. The whole of the saving would amount to £3,000 a-year. The expense of the Powder Mills at Feversham was most extravagant, though no powder had been won factured there for some years, and the Mills bad been let. The expense amounted to £B,OOO, though six in. dividuals only were employed. The expense of ma nufacturing gunpowder was half-a-crown the pond, while it was sold for 3d. Among other items, there were £40,000 for stores, though old stores were sold off every year. In 1796, the Commissary had only 10s. a-day, and he now had 30s. He thought we third of the whole sum might be reduced. Mr. WARD said, that in the next Estimates the different items would be carefully distinguished. Ido new works would be found in the present Estimates, as the only expense was for repairs. The expense d the Colonies was less now than it had been in 173 L After an accurate inquiry, it appeared that the eta• blishment at Feversham could only be put down gra dually by selling off the stores, and that was now doing. Sir W. CONGREVE stated, that Government wished to be independent of the Contractors, stid that had led to the erection of the mills at Feversbam , and the extension of those at Waltham Abbey, by which a saving had been effected of £1,573,00 0 . By an expense of 10s, a barrel, the whole of the air" der might be regenerated, and a saving be mad e of £750,000. Mr. BERNAL thought that the sum of £600 01 :' year for Sierra Leone was too great. After a few word's from Mr. WARD, Mr. Holli Sir W. CONGREVE, Mr. D. GILBERT, Mr. BENNIIIt and others, the Committee divided— For the Resolution . 99 For the Amendment . - - 5 3 Majority for-the Resolution - --41 The next Resolution was for £111,850 for Art lery in Ireland. Mr. HUME objected to this grant, as extravarF• He complained particularly of the expenditure IS the Storekeeper's department, amounting to £II,OOO, which, he said, might be reduced to £4,000. Clerks and Officers received larger salaries in Dublin - --. '- •iimiiiiia S