Star. — London, England, 1823-03-04 00:00:00

the punctual fulfilment of engagements. What had t he Public contracted to do? Why, to pay certain perpetual annuities; and as long as they continued to p hose annuities, public credit would be main tained—(Hear, hear).—Trhe late Chancellor of the Exchequer had a most extraordinary idea of shat constituted public credit. He (the Chancellor of the exchequer) thought it consisted in a high rate of stock. With all due deference to the opinion of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, he was of opinion that a high price of stock was injurious to the coun try. He would fearlessly appeal to the present Chan cellor of the Exchequer, for his opinion as to whether the means adopted by his predecessor for bolstering up the funds had not been attended with unfortunate results? The excess of income over expenditure from ]Bl7 to 1822, amounted, as he had before sta:ed, to £7,528,869. What did the late Chancellor of the Exchequer do, when he found himself in possession of that surplus? He sent the Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt into the market, and they purchased stock to the following amount in the respective years: In 1817 £13,696,991 In 1818 . 14,562,932 In 1819 9,436,053 In 1820 4,257,934 In 1821 4,524,574 Nothing could possibly exhibit the absurdity of the Sinking Fund in a stronger light than these trans actions. Although there existed only a net surplus of 7,000,0001. during the five years he had mentioned, the Chancellor of the Exchequer actually borrowed, by means of loans, 90,000,0001. out of which he gave 80,000,0001. to the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, to be expended in the purchase of Stock. in order to keep up the price of the Funds. The effect of so bolstering up the Funds had been to induce Englishmen to invest their capital in foreign seem ities; which he did not like to see. It the Reso lutions which had been proposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer had for their object the keeping up of the Sinking Fund, he would oppose hem at every step—(Wear, hear).—The plan of the r.ight flonour able Genaernan was, paying with one hand and bor- Moving with the other; whereas the uncertai:;ty and additi .nal expense of that mode might be avoided by caneeliing the D:bt as the surplus accrued. The Right Honourable Gentleman had laid great stress noon adhei in?, to the Ite.olution of 1819. What was that ?—that the public credit of the country could not be effectually held up without a sur plus of five mil lions as a Sinking Fund : but was there that surplus? liv had contended at that time, that no such surplus ceuld exist without the riddi of new taxes.— He now asked s hat was the result? The House had come to the abominable resolution to add three ma ligns, by additional taxation, to make up this sum of live millions, which was to be called a Surplus Revenue and a Sinking Fund. Ile should never cease to object to a system founded as this was. It had been said that a great advantage to the public creditor was in this, that be was paid in a better currency than that in which the debt was for the greater part contracted; true it was, and he would here again repeat his anxious wish that good faith should be kept with the public creditor: but the Chancellor went farther; he gave more than was re quired in justice to the other branches of the com munity, for he continued the depression upon those other branches, by keeping up a Sinking Fund of 5.000,0001. to be, as it were, a greater security. Now, he contended, that in fact it would afford no greater real security to the public creditor, while at the same time it would be greatly injurious to the other classes, and might be the means of injury to all, inasmuch as it would enable Ministers to continue their system of enormous expenditure.— But it might be. asked—would he have no surplus? Yes, he would answer; he would remit the 5,000,0001. in taxes, and still there would be left a surplus of from 1,000,0001. to 1,500,0001. and, besides, the re venue would improve in proportion as the burdens of the people were lightened. As was said on the repeal , of the Salt Tax, a great part of the sum reduced would comeback to the Exchequer in another shape, it would be the same in the reduction of these 5,000,0001.—a considerable portion of the money would find its way back in the increased consumption of various at titles. He there:ore called upon the House not to sanction the continuance of this surplus of 5,000,0001. under the delusive idea that it u as necessary to support pub- Yc faith or strengthen public credit. As long as we were in a condition to nay the public creditor what was due to him, so long would public credit be sup rotted, The credit of the country was never in a more flourishing condition, as far as confidence in its resources went, than in those years when we had, in effect, nn surplus whatsoever. From the years 1793 :o 1817 we were borrow ing every year,had no real Sinking Find, and yet, during all that time, public ci edit was kept up in a manner which had not been exceeded since. The Honourable Member then went on to contend, that it was a blind and absurd policy to go on ima gining a surplus fund, while there was a deficiency of some millions in the Consolidated Fund—that it would be wrung to leave any surplus fund which might exist at the disposal of Ministets, holding out to them at least a temptation to divert it flour its original purpose. He would leave them nothing.— The House had been much too confiding already. He hoped, therefore, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not press his plan. If they were to have a binking Fund at all, let it be a real one: but he, maintained that we wanted none—that the fundholders wanted no additional security ; therefore the sinking Fund would be no relief to them, but that the con tinuance of it would be a real oppression upon a large portion of the community already too much dis kressed, and who ought in justice to be relieved from t!:i:r burdens by the amount of this sum. The honourable Member then contended, in reply to the argument of the Honourable Member for Taunton Or. A. Bar ing), that it would be equally unsound policy to leave this sum as a kind of fund to be used in case of any sudden emergency—Mean hear).- 11 it weie to be so kept, how could it be called a fund for the reduction of debt ? But if it was for the re daction of debt, let it be so applied in the proper form, and not allowed to accumulate in the hands of l those who would be too ready to dispose of it in ano ther manner. There were many ways of making the surplus applicable to the payment of debt—by can telling stuck, and by redeeming annuities; but to lay it 0111 in buying ti c at :s0 what we sold at little more t i bl n so ) would be absolutely throwing away the pub " money. The lion. Member their read One of the. Resolutions proposed by him last Session, pointing !out the inefficiency of the relief to the country which l could be expected from the operation of a Sinking Fond of 55000,0001. and sheaving that it would be the wisest course to let the whole sum go at mice to the remission of taxes, and depend upon the resources of the country, which would thereby be much im- I proved, in case of any future emergency. He now begged to reiterate the same sentiments, and he trusted the House would go along with him in thinking it absurd to be paying with one hand and borrowing with the oilier; but if they did not concur with him in this, he hoped they would not consent to the plan' of allowing the whole of the 3,000,0001. of Sinking Fund to remain. Mr. BARING was anxious to offer a few observa tions in reference to what bad fallen from his lion. Friend, the Member for Aberdeen. He was most ready to agree with his Hon. Friend in all he bad said about the fallacy of the Sinking Fund, as it had. been exhibited in amount by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer; but when he came to apply hi, argu ments to the abolition of that Fund, he was unable to go along with him. Huw, also, his Hon. Friend meant to establish, that every year that they paid off debt they were going backwards, he could not con ceive. When his Hon. Friend applied the word false to the Sinking Fund during the war, he agreed with him; but then he apprehended they could not have a real one. At the same time he must observe, that there might be something said for a fictitious Sink ing Fund in time of war. For, however useless and invaluable it might appear in tire eyes of some Gen tlemen, to take any pains to sustain public credit now that we wanted no money, yet, in time of war, that public credit was valuable to the country—(flear, Freer).—He much doubted whether public credit had not been better maintained during the. war, by bor rowing thirty-five millions when thirty millions or.ly were wanting, and making a nominal Sinking Fund of the rest, than if that course had not been resorted to. It served to keep alive the market—to give currency to Stock, and t...at was credit. Ile would not go so far as to say that this hypothesis was made out to de monstration, but certainly it was not clearly proved to be otherwise. He agreed with his Hon. Friend that great loss had been sustained by the errors in the funding system ; but he could not agree that it was equal to what 1:e represented it. He also concurred with him in hoping that the Chancellor of the Exche quer would not fall into the same ei tor of borrowing with one hand and paying. with another. He also joined him in censuring the late Chancellor of the Exchequer for repres e nting the surplus to be greater than it really was. Be did not wish to say anything of that Noble Lord which might militate against the respect he entertained for his personal character; but he must say that the policy he acted upon in that re spect was something like the vulgar vanity of people to make their income appear greater than it was. He certainly thought it a mistaken policy to endeavour to make the surplus appear five millions, when in reality, as his lion. Friend had distinctly shewn, it was only three millions. He did wish that the Right Hon. Gentleman would do away with that part of the system of his predecessor, and lay out the money in Long Annuities. But a question had been raised whether a surplus at all were of any great moment ? Gentlemen took up this view and raised this question as though it were a matter which concerned one in terest and one class more than another—as if that House ought to legislate for one interest in the State more than for another; and as if it concerned one interest more than another, that their affairs should be soundly managed ! If there ere such an interest, however, it was, in his opinion, that one which had always stood by the country in all vicissitudes and all emergencies—Wear, hear).—He Mr. Baring) really wished that those Hon. Membeis who enter tained these views, would give the House an idea of what they would do in any of those cases which are likely to arise,, and place the country in an unusual situation. There were Gentlemen in that House who proposed to do away with the Sinking Fund; and it was incumbent on them to shew how they would propose to go on without it. He would ask them to suppose, for instance, that the i ncome s h ou ld f a ll o ff to the amount of four or five millions, and, in'his! opinion, nothing was moie likely to happen. He would put the House in possession of the views upon which this opinion was founded. It would be found that he was correct in stating, that neither in the Metropolis, nor in the great towns, or even villages, had the price of labour fallen in proportion to the fall which had taken place in the price of provisions. He spoke of the artioins and workmen in the higher branches of the mechanics, fur he did not mean to assert this of the labourers who plouished or sowed. This high rate of wages bad been maintained by va rious causes—and amongst others, not the least, the combination amongst the workmen. Taking the fact, however, without troubling themselves about the cause, let them look at the consequence: the labourer could buy the same quantity of bread and meat which he enjoyed before the fall of prices, with half what he br - and the remaind --- —onev he - Igo to borrow m one y, w h en the moment they did not 'grant it any mere, - they began to cry down the prin ciples of good faith,which called upon them to provide for the repayment of it?—when a cry was raised for "equitable adjustment," but which might more appro priately be styled convenient adjustment—(H: ar ). He did not apply these observationi to his Man Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, for he had alwt-ys deprecated any breach of public faith : but how did he mean to uphold public credit without a surplus revenue? Who did he anticipate should lend their money, when they boldly proclaimed they never, meant to repay ?—(Hear, hear). True is was, they' had seen the credulity of the nation led into all sorts of money bubbles of late; and he did -not mean to deny that some poor old women of Bath or of Ire land, whose worn-out faculties would not admit of their following his Hon. Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, in his calculations, and who, therefore, might be so dull as to think that no one would ever , pronose to borrow who did not mean to repay : such characters might forward their money. It was cer tainly possible to find blind ideots enough to lend on such security—(Hear, hear, hear). Setting aside the impropriety of promulgating such abominable prin. ciples in Parliament, and proposing a system which: could only lead to swindling, it was very u ell to talk of the relief such a course might afford, but he un dertook to say that it WAS impossible for any man to point out a system of Finance tOr a country more ho. nourable than that one finnided on the principle of pay ing dr, in time of peace, what was borrowed in time of war. If they consented to do away the funding system, they would refuse the aid of what was a most im p! cant and efficacious engine upon all occasions of iJitliculty. Ile was sure thellou,e would see the proi;riery of standi n g by t h e general principles which they had seen had guided his Majesty's Ministers in the maintenance and application of the Sinking Fond. • As it had been shewn that the Sinking Fund was really only three millions instead of five, and it was admitted by other Gentlemen that one or two millions aught to remain in the nature of a Sinking Fund, it would be seen that between the two, the remainder to be applied to the reduction of taxation was so small as scarcely to be worth notice. He would abstain horn adverting to the subject of the change effected in the value of the currelicy, farther than to say that the greater part of the evils now suffered by the c , untry were attributable to it. He hoped the Right Honourable Gentleman would reconsider that part of his Resolutions which treated of the Long Annui ties, and which he thought approached to the exploded system of borrowing with one hand and paying with the other; if that were done away with, then he should say the Finance system of the Government was pal pable to the understanding of every man, woman, and child in the country who could read—(Hear). Mr. T. WILSON strongly deprecated the system of argument follon ed by the Honourable Member for Aberdeen, which he should always be ready to ex pose, whether he met with it in that House or else where. That Hon. Member never ceased to shew the folly, and he believed even the iniquity, of borrowing in time of war, and paying off in time of peace. lie (Mr. Hume) thought, instead of that, they ought to relieve the distress of the agriculturists, and not ap ply their Surplus Revenue to a Sinking Fund. But it was not the landholder, but the monied man, fa orn whom they borrowed, and he was cony iuced that main taining public faith would assist the agriculturists, though not so directly as removal of taxes. All the change he desired to he made in the Sinking Fund was, that the Surplus Revenue should be applied to make an extinction of debt instead ofa Sinking Fund. Mr. D. GILBERT said, he had at the time op posed the attack of the late Chancellor of the Ex chequer on the Sinking Fund, because a Sinking , Fund continued during the w ar , h a d on th e return o f peace an energy in the reduction of debt, without any effort on the part of the Government. Ile was happy now that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had again established a Sinking Fund, and he trusted that even if he should be obliged again to resort to Loans, the Fund would be preserved inviolate. Though he was one of the class who were most dis tressed, and should not be so romantic as to reject any relief that could be extended to them, he could not suppose that the remission of two or tin ee millions of taxes could be attended to the Agi icultui fists them selves, with advantages equal to those derived horn the maintenance of public credit. Mr. H. G. BENNET said he should oppose, under the present circumstances of the country, the appro priation of any sum to a Sinking Fund (Hear, hear). He was a little surprised to hear the Hon. Gentleman (Nlr. Gilbert) desiring the relief to be derived from the reduction of taxes, when a few days ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer was cheered for having proposed a reduction of tun', millions, not because it was a mockery, not because it was a delusion, hut because, as far as it went, it would afford relief— (Hear, hear),lt a reduction of two or three millions was a mockery, a reduction of aye would be none_ (Hear, hcar).—With the trifling sum of three millions I,ev mil --seal the Beer lax- -.1,' paid before, and the remainder o. money he na- they might repeal ti T lax—that iniquitous tax. ,tuvally laid out in gin and tobacco, and other excise- which pressed on the poor for ti.e benefit of the rich able articles. Thus they had an easy solution of the —(Hear, hear). When the Ilan. Member for Taunton phenomenon of the flourishing Revenue. But sup- (Mt. Baring) reprobated those who talked of an equi posing bread and meat to become double their pre- table adjustment of contracts, and called it a conve sent price next year, they would then have a falling nient adjustment, he should recollect that he, too, had off of three or four millions in the Revenue. He had his proposal loran equitableadjustment,bymaking wished, then, to know what Honourable Gentlemen silver a legal tender. Why did he propose this equitable could do under such circumstances? It was very easy adjustment, but because it was a convenient plan ? and very attractive for Gentlemen to fall in with the He (the Hon. Member for Taunton) had told them popular side of this question, and raise a cry for the that the string had been drawn too tight—(Hear)— reduction of burthens; but he trusted to see a re- and that it was convenient to relax it. If, therefore, spectable opposition to such docteines—(Hear, hear). there was any infamy in a proposal to make a conve- He would call upon these Gentlemen to suppose ano- nient adjustment of contracts, the Hon. Member for ther emergency also likely, in our present situation, Taunton came in with his claim for a full share— to arise—he meant the necessity of armed interference ; (Hiar, hoar).—He was surprised to find that many in some quarter of the world, whether it came from j Country Gentlemen, who, under the existing sys the shores of the Mediterranean or elsewhere. How tem, were deprived of their consequence and their then would they propose to succeed,with their finances estates, did not even make their voices heard; that' cracked, in the manner required? There was but one I they acre actually baring their throats to the of two ways to choose—they must tax- the country, I butcher's knife—(Hear).— Did they know, that if or borrow. Now, nothing could be more fatal to a t they adopted this proo3sal,there was an end of thehope country than unsteadiness In the system of taxation of 'chef from the taxes? As to public credit, it seemed —(Hear, hear).—Under a state of uncertainty, wire- , to him to be founded on public faith—on the dis charge by the Publi c o f th e o bli gat i ons i t Contracts. ther an article would rise in price this year, or go down the next, no trader could know what he was The terms ofthe contract with the public creditor was about—(Hear, henry—Whitt, tilenovas the other way the payment of a perpetual annuity, and if the coun lelt to be adopted ? He ,hould undoubtedly say use try continued to pay the annuity, the obligations of the funding sy stern—borrow now,and then they would good faith were fully discharged. With the Member be in a state to repay alien called upon. But he for Taunton, the only object seemed to be to create would put it to the House, with shat face could they, a purse. He lookeJ upon a Sinking FunJ in the lame • . , . . . . , light as the old King of Pruisii woul d, as a treastafe to Ist nceslnto later! far the ptirpose of carrying on war; With the House the object should be directly the rel verse, viz. to put the money out of the reach of Mi . nisters, to caned Stick, and to, remit Tilts. Coder present circumstances, !se should, however, object to the application of even half a million to the reduction of Vie Debt; and if there was but half a million, the only way isi which it co Id be applied, s 4 ith justice to the country, was to the reduction of taxes. Mr: J. SMITH c )uld not hear publit credit spant lightly of. The :11ernber lot TAu nton had clearly sheWri that everything which contributed to use maintenance of public credit, contributed also to economy. Every . one must admit that the distress of the c , untry was most severe, and he would go any length for A remiti• ion of agricultural distress, but he was sure that thit interest would suffer one of the first by anything that affected public credit. Every nation in Europe had followed our system of haviEg a Sinking Fund ; and should we be the first to destiny that great source of public credit ? Ile should, therefore, vote for the Chancellor of the I.7:chequer' , proposition. The LORD M A YOR thought the House ought to pause before it passed a Resolution which went to alter those laws to which the public creditor had been ac customed to look for security through thelast 30 years: Mr. RICARDO declared it to be his opinion, that the agricultural interest had suffered but little by the restoration of the currency.—The Resolution was then agreed to: . Mr. HUME objected to the alteration of time to which the accounts would be maJe up if the present Resolutions were carried. He wished to know if the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to give up the humbug of the two millions connected with the half pay annuities. He announced it to be his purpose to submit to the Committee, a Resolution declaring it td he inexpedient to maintain a Sinking Fund for more than 3,000,0001. and desirable to appropriate any sur plus revenue over that sum to the remisrion of taxes. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was of opinion that no confusion could arise from the period named in these Resolutions by making up the accounts. They could be annually made up to the sth January, as usual, though in the next year, the first quarter's business must be arranged on the old system—the other three-quarters on the new one. With respect to the question asked as to the course to be pursued with respect to the Half-pay Annuities, it had never been contended on that side of the House that if the Annuities were not sold, the dif ference belween 2,800,000/. on their former amount must be made up, or by borrowing from the Sinking Fund. This he had never pretended to deny. But if the Annuities should be sold, there would really I. 5,000,000/. applicable to the reduction of debt with out that issue of Exchequer Bills, which in the case he had supposed might be necessary ; he did not say that it was a matter of course that the plan should succeed ; but he had as good a right to assume that it would as he had to assume thegeneral improvement ofthe Revenue. . Should-it fail, the same effect would be produced as if the taxes were to fall short in any particular year. If from a bad harvest, or any other circumstance, a deficiency of 2,000,0001. were to occur, it must be made up by an issue of Exchequer Bills, and in such year there could be no surplus of 5,000,000/. But because in a particular case it might become neces sary to increase the unfunded debt of the country, that was no reason fur laying it down as a principle that a certain sum should not be set apart for the re duction of a funded debt. Mr. RICAItDO understood the Right Hon. Gen tleman to .consider, that there would be a manifest difference between the plan being successful, as he called it, and unsuccessful. To him it appeared, that in either case the result would be the same. This plan could not increase our means, and, indeed, he rather wished it might prove unsuccessful than otherwise; for, as the Right lion. Gentleman would not be able to sell the annuities but on bad terms, it would be better for the country that they should not be sold at all. The plan carried into effect, a debt should be created proportionate to the relief afforded, and such being the fact, how could it be said that we kept up a clear Sinking Fund of £5.000,000? Mr. HUME contended that the Sinking Fund ought only to be considered to amount to 3,000,0001. Ile moved, as an amendment on the Resolutions re specting the half-pay annuities, " That, in the opinion of this Committee, it is inexpedient to maintain a real Sinking Fund of more than 3,000,0001. and that it is necessary to afford the people relief by repealing Taxes to the amount of the remaining surplus revenue." Mr. TIERNEY said, that no man could tell what was the real amount of the Sinking Fund. He wished, however, to get every remission of taxes that was practicable. He found, at the same time, that those whom he wished to relieve, seemed to have no wish to be relieved. They must not therefore be angry with him if he fought no more for them. He wished to know what the teal amount of the Sink ing Fund was? Mr. D. GILBERT explained. He had only said that the support of a Sinking Fund would be a relief to the Agricultural Interest. He was of opinion that ' the whole scheme of the last Chancellor of the Exche quer was an entire delusion. Mr. HUSKISSON maintained that taxes to the amount of six millions had been remitted in two years ; and yet there was now a clear surplus of three millions. He defended the late Chancellor of the Ex chequer's plan of annuities paid to half-pay Officers. The Committee then divided on Mr. Hume's Amendment, when the numbers were, _ For the Amendment 39—Against it 110—Majority 71 THE WORKING CLASSES. Mr. P. MOORE moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Act against the Combination of Workmen. hlr. M A X.WELL, in seconding the motion, returned thanks to the Honourable Member for taking up the cause of the poorer manufacturer and artisan—the most neglected class of the prop.. It was needless to comment upon a law which bound 111.• ployed and left the employer free as air—which gave protecti..n .n wealth and power by withdrawing it from poverty and weak me t. ,(Hear. Hear.)—Were the Administration to assist in reps air laws, which were effective only on the feeble, they w 01.1,1 uj more far their own credit, the satisfaction of the people, and the good of the community, than they had done for some time past. Mr. HUSK ISSON said the subject which the Honourable Gentleman proposed to bring under the consideration of the House was a very important one, and much deliberation would be necessary before any Gentleman could pledge 'himself to Sup port such a measure. He trusted that when tbe• Honourable Member should have brought in the Bill in as perfect a stare as possible, he would postpone it for a convenient period in order to afford the House an opportunity of duly considering its provisions. Mr. PEEL could not - see why the Honourable- Member should not have entered into some detailed statement of measure which he intepded to bring formed. • Mr. P. HOUR E said he . had•nosibleetioNtooesifylite Meat Honourable Secretary. with a loager.spetelso-0