Star. — London, England, 1821-06-09 00:00:00

rition for placing the Duke of Clarence on a distinct tcoting from the junior branches of the Royal Family, still evinced every disposition to meet the wishes of the Crown ; and a Right Honourable Gentleman whom be did not then see in his place (Mr. Tierney), was particularly anxious that a suitable -provision should be made for the Illustrious Parties. The sum of £6OOO a-year, which had been proposed, was not objected to by the Duke of Clarence as a jointure for his consort, though, from the circumstances in which be was placed, he declined accepting it himself. The loyal Duke had intended to go to the Continent, where he might live in a more economical manner than in this country ; but after he had I een there for some time, he was obliged to return to England, find ing that change of air was necessary to the health of the Duchess. If it had pleased PROVIDENCE to pre serve the infant child of the Duke of Clarence, he (the Marquis of Londonderry) would have felt him self called uporr to bring the question of a more li beral provision again before the House; but that not being the case, he contented himself with bringing, under their consideration the change that had taken place in the circumstances of his Royal highness, and his object •snas, that he might be irlaced on the same footing with the other branches of the Royal Family, who had accepted the grant in 1818, by getting the arrears since that period—(Hear, hear).—He was •quite sure time could be !slit one fCeling on both sides of the Howe, with respect to the propriety of placing the Illustrious Duke at least on a level, in point of income, with his younger brothers, if a larger provision was not to be made fcr him. The Duke of Clarence was next in succession to the Throne so the Duke of York, and he, therefore, stood in a more prerninent relation than any of the junior branches. The object of the present motion was to give effect to the provision of IblB, but without as signing to the Illusuious Individual more than had been settled on the Duke of Cambridge or the Duke Kent, at the time of their marriage. On the part of the Duke of Clarence, he must say, that the country souls not spew any man who was a more perfect ex ample of domestic propriety than his Royal High ness. The Noble Marquis concluded by moving— " That a sum not exceeding 4:6000 a-year be charged on the Consolidated Fund, as a suitable provision for his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence, com mencing ham the sth of A t nil, 1818." Mr. HUNIE submitted to the Noble Marquis, whe ther it would not be proper that he should divide his propositions, as they embraced two distinct points? The [louse might agree to the grant, though not to the arrears. Before he proceeded farther he wished to ask the Nhble Marquis, if he was disposed to take the .rant of £6,000 a•-year now, and afterwards move for the arrears by a separate vote.? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY objected to do so; it would destroy the effect of his proposition. Mr. lICNIE, finding that the Noble Marquis was unwilling to acquiesce, could not possibly agree to the motion in its present form. He thought the No ble Marquis was bound to give some satisfactory an swer to the question he had put to him on a former night, respecting the property of the late King. It seemed that all that was now sought was to place the Duke of Clarence on the same footing with his younger brothers. He (Mr. Hume) was very willing to do so. In consequence of the addition of A:6,000, to 1.:18,000 a-year previously enjoyed by the Dukes of Cumberland, Cambridge, and Kent, their incomes were made t'o amount to 1:24,000, but it required only £3,500 a-year to place the Duke of Clarence on the same footing with them. It would be seen that there ss as a Bill providing a Civil List to the amount of £850,000 a-year, besides allowances for the ju nior branches of the Royal Family ; and there was a thati.e for- the Duke of Clarence of £2,500 a-year upon the Consolidated Fund above the amount of in come possessed by any of his younger brothers. He, maintained that they would not do their duty to the Public if they allowed another shilling to be given in addition to the £3,500 a-year, which would make up the deficiency. When the Queen had magnani mously refused to accept £15,000 a-year, was any proposal made by the Noble Lord to make good the arrears ? Certainly not. He (Mr. Hume) would un doubtedly have submitted a motion to that effect had not her Majesty been so ill advised as to refuse the money. While they were thus deliberating on the income of the Duke of Clarence, it would be well if they did not forget other branches of the Royal Family, who stood in close relation to the Crown. W. it be believed that at this moment the daugh ter of the Duke of Kent, who to all intents and pur poses was the child of the nation, owed her support to an individual ever since the decease of her illus trious father? It ought to be borne in mind, that the legitimate child of the Duke of Kent did not re ceive a farthing from the State, while the illegiti mate children o the Duke of Clarence cost the peo: ple £2,500 a-year—(Hear). It was not enough for the House to hear that the brother of the Duchess of Kent had undertaken the support of her child ; the country ought to see that the child in question was amply provided for. He entirely agreed in what had been stated by his Honourable Friend as to the public conduct of the Duke cf Clarence on a late oc casion; and he thought that such conduct was very little calculated to increase that respect which the Public seemed disposed to pay to the Royal Family. lie would ask any man, however he might commend the private character of his Royal Highness, to say whether the part he took in the late trial was not most indelicate and reprehensible ?—(Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches).—Gentlemen ,might cheer ; bu t h e wou ld f ear l ess l y repeat t h e assertion, and would tell the Noble Lord and his colleagues, that the same delicacy which made the Duke of Sus sex and all the other junior branches of the Royal Family absent themselves, when their near relation was pot tri t on her trial, and had almost her very life at issue, would have been much more becoming in the Duke of Clarence than the zeal he evinced against her(Cireers).—lle should certainly take the sense of the House upon the motion, even if lie stood alone, or had only the support of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Monet:). In the case of the Queen the money had been refured from a liberal feeling ; whereat, in the case of the Duke of Clarence, it batmen refused in a spirit of petulance. He thought the time was now tome when the property of his late Majesty ought to be inquired into. It was currently reported t h at his Majesty had made a will, which was kept con cealed; it that was the case, and that the will was 40t according to law, thstp his property fell to the Public. By the statute of Anne, no Sovereign could alienate his property ; but, by the 39th and 40th of George HI. a King was at liberty to bequeath manors and lands by will. Now there was a report that the late King had actually made a will, and if so, the merits of it ought to be publicly known. It was pos able that he might have died rich enough to super sede the necessity of appealing to the liberality of the Public in the present instance. Supposing he might 'have left £1,000,000 sterling; that sum, if divided among his five sons, would give each of them 1200,000. He could not but reprobate the secret, mysterious manner in which this will was kept con cealed—(!fear, hear).—lf any portion of the late King's property was devised to the Duke of Clarence, and then if something more was wanted to put him in a situation to support his dignity suitably, he, tor one, would be ready to grant it ; but the will ought to be produced. For instance, if thirty Or £40,000 had been devised by it to the Duke of Cambridge, was it fair to keep him ignorant of the fact—was it just to keep the money from him ? If no will had been made, let Ministers come forward and state it to be so, and explain if the provisions of the laws in that case had been complied with, as well as what had been done with the money that had been con veyed, by several Acts, to Count Munster and others. The House was bound to inquire what the extent of the devised property was, and where it now remained. If the Noble Lord did not give a satisfactory ex planation on that head, he should conceive that a grant of £3,500 a-year to the Duke of Clarence, in addition to the income he already enjoyed, would be quite su ffi cient—( Hear)—and he therefore con cluded with moving an Amendment, reducing the amount of the original proposition to the sum he had just stated —( Hear, hear). The Marquis of LONDONDERRY thought he had reason to complain of the course pursued by the Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down, be cause in opening his proposition to the House, he (the Marquis of Londonderry) did not recollect that he had stated anything calculated to provoke the personal mode of argument which the Honourable Gentleman had emeloyed—(Hear, hear).—Though, undoubtedly, it was the privilege of any Honourable Member to make such observations as he thought fit, yet he must say, that in this instance that privilege was not very discreetly exercised—(Hear, hear),---nor was it even to the advantage of the party of whom the Honourable Gentleman appeared to be the cham pion—(Hear, hear).—lndeed, the line of argument which the Honourable Gentleman had used was sel dom, he might say, in his experience, ever useful to the object which it was meant to serve--(He" hear). The £2,500 of which the Honourable Gentleman had spoken so much, had been granted to the Duke of Clarence at an early period of his life, in order to place him on an equal footing with those of his Royal Brothers who were in the enjoyment of professional incomes; and when the provisions were made for the Princes by Parliament, those professional incomes were not noticed, as with respect to such of them as possessed these; nor was this sum of £2,500 noticed, as with respect to his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence. fie was the only one of his Royal Brothers who had not a professional income; and this equiva lent for one was small, when placed in comparison with that of the Duke of Kent, who derived from the Government of Gibraltar £7,000 a-year, and en joyed this in addition to the £lB,OOO a-year settled on him by Parliament, in common with his - Royal Brothers. This spirit of appearing as a champion for one branch of the Royal Family could not, there fore, he conceived, lead to results which would be at all useful to the party intended to be served—( Hear, hear).—Another benevolent observation of the Ho nourable Gentleman was with respect to her Majesty, and he argued that she had just the same right to claim the difference between £55,000 and £30,000 a-year from the time that she first refused the addi tion, to the moment in which her circumstances were altered. Upon that he had only to say, that the cases were quite different. He only asked the House to put the Duke of Clarence in the same situation in which he had been originally placed; and there was nothing in the observations of the Honourable Gentle man, on this part of the subject, which would in duce the House to dissent from the first proposition. The Honourable Gentleman wished to persuade tht House that this grant was not necessary, because there were other funds, he said, in existence, of great magnitude, on which the Duke of Clarence might have a claim—namely, the personal property of his late Majesty. He did not think that the House would compel him now to go into detail upon that subject. There was every disposition on the part of his Ma jesty's Ministers to give the fullest information with respect to the property of his late Majesty, on a pro per occasion ; and he believed it probable that he might shortly be authorized to submit a proposition to the House connected with it. When that occasion would arrive, he should be prepared to go into the fullest explanation, and it would spew that the state merits of the Honourable Gentleman and others, of the existence of balances amounting to a million or more were nothing but pure inventions (Hear, hear). He believed he could state, that the money property left by the late King did not exceed £80,000; and that was subject to so many claims on the liberality of his Majesty, that only a small portion of it could be applicable at the discretion of the King. With re gard to the real estate of his late Majesty, as the will. which was left was not cohsidered by the competent Law Authorities as regularly executed, the property which came under that description descended to his present Majesty, jure Coronet, and administration of it had been made by the proper Constitutional Offi cer, so that not one sixpence either of the personal or real property was applicable to the wants of the Duke of Clarence—(Hear, hear, hear).—The House and the Country would now know that all those supposed accumulations, which malice had exaggerated to so enormous an amount, as having been made by his late Majesty, were perfect fictions—(Hear, hear).— Equall y false were the statements 'that the late Queen had made a great purse in this country for her Con tinental relatives—(Hear). —The fact was, that when her late Majesty died, she hardly left assets to cover bee debts--(Citeers).—Her extensive charities had been found to exhaust the accidental accumula tions of a long reign —(Hear, hear). —It would now be for the liberality of Parliament to consider whether they would make the same provision for the Duke of Clarence, which was made for his Royal Brothers under the -same circunistances—(Hear, hear) —anti ,the Englishmen were few, he believed, who wonld' wieh - to see their Representatives proceed upon other considerations, to make any deviation on this occa sion, from the general spirit and liberality of Parlia ment—( Hear, hear). A MEMBER, whose name could not be learnt, de fended the character of the Duke *of Clarence from some remarks that had been made in the course 'of the debate. He said that hi, Royal Highness could justify his conduct in another place, if it was neces sary to do so, and that he was exemplary in the dis charge of all the duties of domestic life—(Near). — The Honourable Member for Aberdeen ought also to have remembered that his Royal Highness was eminently distinguished in a Charity with which that Honourable Member was connected, and that he was ever anxious to promote the liberal Arts and Sciences. Mr. HUME denied that he had made any attack on the private character of the Duke of Clarence. He agreed that his Royal Highness ought to be placed on the same footing, in point of income, with his younger brothers; but he knew of nothing in the public conduct of that Royal Duke which should entitle him to a higher income than they enjoyed. With respect to professional allowances, he disdained to touch them; and he thought he had reason to complain, that whenever individuals in this House fe t it their duty to oppose grants of this sort, they should be exposed to attacks such as the Noble Mar quis had made upon him—attacks which, he would take leave to say, did not at all mend the matter. In his opinion, any man who voted a larger income to the Duke of Clarence than 1.:24,000 on the whole, would not duly perform the trust reposed in him. Mr. UUSKISSON stated that when the small grant had been originally made, it did nor exceed 1:1000. It was afterwards raised to £2500 ; and when an addition of 1:601K) Has made to his Royal High ness's income in 1806, by Lord Grenville's Adminis tration, the Royal Duke still enjoyed the £2500, and so continued to do in 1818, when the increased al lowance on his proposed marriage was granted. Mr. W. WILLIAMS said that the Noble Lord, when he said that the Duke of Clarence was the only one of the Royal brothers who had no professional income, must have forgotten the fact that the Duke of Sussex had no professional income. He was the only member of the Royal Family who had not an addi tional resource of that description. There was no branch of the Royal Family that had better supported the character of an English Gentleman than the Duke of Sussex. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he had never once mentioned the name of his Royal High ness the Duke of Sussex. What he had observed, or, at least, meant to argue, was, that Parliament made provisions for the Royal Dukes, without looking to their professional incomes. Mr. W. SMITH did not wish to enter into the pri vate characters of the Royal Princes. He thought, however, he had reason to complain of the tone as• sumed by the Noble Lord. He had no hesitation in saying that, in his opinion, the House would do right in granting £6OOO a-year to the Duke of Clarence, and Would do wrong in granting one shilling of the arrears. With respect to the estate of the late King, he was ready to believe the statement of the Noble Marquis, so far as it went. But he should like very much . to Kaye known a little more of the real estate of kis late Majesty, which the present King came to the enjoyment of jure corona. Suppose that real estate had amounted to two or three hundred thou sand a-year— _ _ Mr. HUSKISSON begged pardon of the Hon. Member for interrupting him, but he thought it might save much of the time of the House if he stated that, in consequence of his late Majesty's will not being deemed a valid instrument, the real estate descended to his present Majesty jure corona. It therefore formed a part of the Royal demesnes, in the nature of ancient demesnes, which were surrendered by the Crown to the Public, in exchange for a fixea Civil List. —The adn 111 l i tration of the property thus devolved upon the Commissioner of Woods and Forests, who applied it to the purposes of the Public ; and, in tact, it formed a part of the Con so lidated Fund—(Hear). He wished sincerely he could state to the Hou,e that it amounted, as the Hon. Gentleman had supposed, to L 200,000 or £300,000 a-year, as it would tend considerably to alleviate the public burthens ; but he feared that, if the real estate of his late Majesty were sold by auction, it would not realize upwards of £2o,ooo—( clear, hear). Mr. W. SMITH was extremely glad that this ex planation had been given. He concluded with ex pressing his intention to refuse the arrears. The - Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that it was only within the last ten days that the opinion of the competent Law Authorities, as to the invalidity of his Majesty's Will, was had. Mr. BRIGHT conceived, that since the Duke of Clarence enjoyed £2500 as a sort of compensation for the professional incomes which his other Royal Brothers enjoyed, the addition of the £3500 proposed by the lion. Member for Aberdeen, was a sufficient sum to be added to the Parliamentary allowance he already possessed. With respect to the arrears, he was not disposed to grant them, as his Royal High ness had in the first instance refused that grant which Parliament had thought fit to give. Mr. TIERNEY conceived, that in voting for the first proposition, he would do no more than place the Duke of Clarence in the same situation in which he would have been if he had received this grant from the first—(Hear, hear).—He thought, indeed, that the Duke of Clarence had been very ill-advised when he had resolved, in the first instance, to refuse it ; for he quite agreed that the Princes of the Blood Royal were entitled to nothing, and they ought to take what ever Parliament granted to thetn—(Hear).—When the Duke of Clarence did refuse this grant, it was the general opinion that he would not fulfil the proposed marriage; but both his Royal Highness and his Du chess did go to the full length of the previous ar rangements, under circumstances which were highly honourable to both the parties,_ because it was the first Royal marriage that was concluded without a view to an increase of income —(Hear, hcar).—From that day to this, he confessed he had constantly ex pected that the Noble Lord would have come down to the House with this proposition; and he believed that there was no considerable portion of the Public who did not think that, in agreeing to the proposition now, they were doing no more than what justice required (Hear). It should be borne in mind, that the grant which was first proposed for his Royal Highness was £10,000; mrate lesser sum of £5,000 was proposed by the Ha inourable Member for Surrey; and he (Mr. Tierney) agreed to it. Having thus exercised a discretion en that occasion, he did not see how he could run away from the vote he then gave—(Hear, hear).—He held himself committed to it. As to the arrears, a sha dow, but only a shadow, of an argument, might per. haps be raised ssith respect to them. He could pot but think that they ought to be given. For himself, he had no motive but the performance of his duty. It wa, a long time since he had been in the habits of acquaintance with that Royal Duke; but he consi dered as well deserving of attention, that his Royal Highness, since his marriage, discharged the duties of a husband in the most meritorious manner — (Hear, hear).—All that, in fact, was now asked of the House was to forget what had passed, aid to agree to the proposition of the Noble Lord. As to the Duke of Sussex, whose name had been mentioned, if, on a fit opportunity, an addition to his income was proposed, there was no man in the House who would vote for it more willingly than himself. Mr. FORBES still thought the refusal of the grant to the Duke of Cumberland on a former occasion un just. He thought, also, that when the Noble Lord came down to-night to propose the renewal of the grant to the Duke of Clarence, he should have been, at the same time, prepared to propose a provision for the Duke and Duchess of Kent's daughter. At this moment the young Princess of Kent was supported by the charity of the Prince Leopold. He might be told that Prince Leopold was very well able to afford ;her support out of his income —(Hear, hear)—but if that income was considered too large, was this the most proper or regular way of reducing it? He con tended that a separate provision ought to he made for this young Princess ; and he said that he must refuse his assent to the proposition of the Noble Lord on the ground that no additional provision was pro posed for the Duke of Cumberland. If, however, the Noble Lord's proposition should be carried, as he sup posed it would be, he would then vote against giving the arrears to the Duke of Clarence. For, in his opi nion, her present Majesty upon the same grounds, might claim the difference between £35,000 and £50,000, from the date of the separate settlement made upon her as Princess of Wales. In conclusion the Ilonourable Member observed, that his observa tions were dictated by a conscious feeling of duty, and by his respect for the Royal Family. The Scotch were possessed of as much loyal feeling as any other portion of British subjects ; and he could assure the Noble Marquis that his own feelings on this and all occasions were as loyal as those of any Englishman or Irishman in that House or out of it, Sir J. YORKE said, that he would not consent to the present vote if he thought it would pledge him to the grant of any arrears. He had come down to the House prepared to support the motion of the Noble Marquis for the grant of £6,000 a-year to his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence; but he had no notion of granting any arrears. His Royal High ness had before declined the grant; and the House acting upon his ret usal, had not passed any Act for giving the proposed sum. That certainly was no reason why it might not be voted at present, but he thought it was a reason why arrears should not be given —( Hear, hear).—He was. reminded on this occasion of an old proverb, and he thought it would not be amiss to act upon it : • • •• " fie that will not when he may, " When he will, he shall have nay !" ( Hear, and laughter ).—He. saw no reason why, on account of the death of the young Princess of Cla rence, the name of another young Pi incess with a hard name, the Princess Vittoria or Victorine, should be introduced. Before any arguments founded upon that subject should be brought forward, th ey oug h t to give his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence time to try his hand again !—(Hear, and laughter). He might have another Victorine, or Princess Eliza. beth, or young Prince George. They should wait at least for another twelvemonth, and see what might be the 'result, as neither the Duke nor Duchess of Clarence was yet too old for procreation !—( Hear, and laughter). Mr. HARBORD said, that it having been thought right to vote £6OOO a-year to his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence in 1818, he did not see why it should be now refused. But the question was different with respect to the arrears ; and therefore he for one would not consent to that part of the proposition. It was his intention, therefore, to move, as an Amend ment upon the Motion of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume), that the sum of £6OOO be granted without the arrears ; and, until some good reason were given, he would persist in that Amendment. Lord MILTON said, he would vote for the sum proposed by the Noble Marquis ; but he would also vote for the Amendment of his Hon. Friend near him, refusing the arrears, because he did not see to what consequences such a precedent would lead. It ap peared to him also, that, on account of the altered state of the currency, it would be the duty of Parlia ment to revise, at some future period, all the grants made to the Royal Family. Sir ROBERT WILSON thought it would be below the dignity of this House to take advantage of the refusal of his Royal Highness to receive this grant originally. The same argument applied to the arrears also. Sir F. BLAKE gave the original proposition his most unqualified support. Mr. BROUGHAM said l►e would not detain the House for any time. lie only wished to make one or two observations for the purpose of correcting a mistake which had crept into the debate. When he heard it stated that the sum of £2,500 was formerly voted to the Duke of Clarence, to make up for the absence of any professional income, and to put him on a level with the other Royal brothers, it was but proper to mention that that was a mistake. There was another brother who was placed. in the same situ ation. The Duke of Sussex had never any command, or regiment, or any other professional income what ever. He wished, however, the House to understand, that he did not make that remark for any other pur pose than to do justice to the Duke of Sussex. He believed that Royal Duke would be the last person to come down to that House to make any such claim. —He was certain no such idea had ever entered into his mind, and equally certain was.he that the Duke of Sussex had large outgoings, which his other brothers had not. His economy, however, and retired manner of life, enabled him to pay off a great portion of those demands to which he had subjected himself ;