Star. — London, England, 1822-03-23 00:00:00

Pl' . . of the Bill against Bea;out gatelike. But he was plaining kind. How, then, were the People to make astonished to heat when his on. Friend stated tisk at a Paldie s Meeting, a known of such things as vindictive prosecutions for political cheer from the Hon. Gentlemen opposite; because, purposes ?—howe they to complain of the abuses at the period when what were called. the hole-and- In theadm l thistra of justice, or the undue severity corner Addresses were circelating, t was the often of local authorities? If Petitions embracing.allega- repeated statement of the other side, that the holding tions of such a nature, however true they m ightbe, be, of a Public Meeting was not the only way in which were unfit for that House to receive, then there was the sense of the People could be taken ; the public ' an end to petition for grievances; for if that against sentiment, they said. could be as effectually known which the Petitioners in this instance complained. by the circulation of a statement for si g natures, as was not a grievance , he should be glad to know what Het were offered in the most public way—(fiear he ). was one. He owned he did not expect to hear e was, therefore, not prepared for the expressions h which language of a body of men, labouring, as these Pe- of triump. were uttered :by the sante Gentle titioners did, nncler a sense that great injustice had men who maintained this doctrine, when they heard been committed against a subject, examined with the that this Petition was not prepared or agr eed to at a microscopic eye of criticism. He was sure, that no Public Meeting. He was a little surprised too to man who took a fair view of the Petition, would come hear the language of the Hon. Member for Leices io the conclusion that the persons signing it intended terll (Mr. Mansfield P eti t ion were i e could ot suppose thatapply o the to insult, or show any disrespec t to the House. The e 8 House of thennte to t House of Commons ought at all times to throw wide him, or any other person in the House,who were not open their doors to the Petitions of the People, how- exposed to the charge of corruption. He felt it ne ewer uncourtly their language might be to those Gen- cessary to do justice to the consistency of the Right tlemen who had recently taken their seats on a dif- Hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Con ferent side of the House from that where they were troul (Mr. Wynn). He was prepared to bear testi in the habit of sitting. • • • mony to the fact, that the Right Hon. Gentleman, Mr. MANSFIELD said, he would appeal to the when sitting on the opposite side of the House to honourable feelings of the Gentleman who presented that on which he now sat, was always the advocate the Petition, and ask him if this was a Petition which for closing, rather than opening the doors of the ought to be received by the House? He (Mr. Mans- House to any Petition which contained words calcu field) was anxious of being one who had been sent to laced to offend the delicate fancy, or squeamish taste that House by the unbiassed choice of a most respect- of any Gentleman of the House. He admitted that able 'body of men, and no man could be prouder than the words were strong ; but when the facts were also he was of the honour conferred by them. He had, strong, he hoped that the House would not be over since he became a Member of that House, given his' rigid in examining the terms in which the sentiments votes in a manner that perhaps might not be in ac- of the Petitioners were conveyed. And they would cordance with the sentiments of the Hon. Gentle- the more readily extend this indulgence to the Peti men on the other side, but he could assure the tioners on this occasion, for they were chiefly of the House, that his votes were never dictated by corrup- middling class—men who were not in the liabitwhen tion—(Hear).—Under such circumstances, he felt their feelings were much excited, of charging them himself called upon, in justice to himself—in justice selves with examining whether or not their espies to his constituents, to set his face against a statement, sions ought to be more limited. It was not to be sup charging him, in common with the other Members posed by such men that they were stating anything bf the House, with corrupt practices. which would excite the strong displeasure of the Mr. lIOIIHOUSE felt surprised that the Hon. House, when they alluded to the practice of seat-sell- Member who just sat down should consider him self in g , seein g it was acknowledged not only by many as pointed at by the allegations of this Petition. The eminent persons in the country, but by the Members lion. Member had nothing to fear—" his withers of that House— ( Hear ).—The expressions of the were unwrung." To him the charges of corruption Hon. Baronet (the Member for Carlisle) had been did not reach—he was guiltless of the offence of seat• alluded to, and it was observed he had not been selling. But however innocent and worth many called to order. He himself heard a Noble Lord in persons in that house might be, surely nobody ever that House state the market-price of a seat in Parlia doubted that there was such a thing as corruption of ment—Es,ooo ! Lord Cochrane was the Noble Lord Parliament; and the charge had been frequently who stated it, and yet he was not called to order.— made in that house and listened to with patience.— In addition to this, he might allude to the traffic of It was only a few days ago that an Hon. Baronet on a seat charged on a Noble Marquis opposite, then the other side attempted to justify the practice of Lord Castlereagh, which was about to become noto corruption on the Ministerial side, by imputing a rious. When the Petitioners heard this—and further, similar pi actice to that of the Opposition, and yet no when they heard it stated by one of the most eminent one called him to order. Not long since a Minister men in the country, Mr. Pitt, that the corruption of of the Crown, in his place in Parliament, stated that the House was notorious—when they heard all this, there were five or six Gentlemen on the Opposition he trusted that the Petitioners would be excused if side of the House who had obtained seats in Parlia- they expressed similar opinions in strong language. meat by improper means, and that it was necessary —He could not suppose that the object of the Peti to have five or six on the other side to balance their tioners was to insult the (louse. They had in view, in influence, and yet he was not called to order. When, one word, the liberation of Mr. llunt, who, they be therefore, corrupt practices were so notorious and lieved, was sentenced to an unjust, undeserved term acknowledged, it was a little too squeamish in the of imp isonnient—(lfear).—lf they had used strong House to refuse receiving a Petition which embraced language iii praying for the interference of the House, 'an allegation to the same effect. Ile agreed with he regretted because it would be a pity that the some of his Hon. Friends, that the Petition might be claims of Mr. Hunt on the consideration of the House conceived in more measured terms • but he must should not come before them, supported by the au deny that th e House of Commons could be hurt by thority of such a body of men as were those Peti any allegation which was not true. “ Words," the tioners, because a few indiscreet expressions had been proverb said, " broke no bones"—no harm could be used by them in their Petition. He confessed that done except by a statement of the truth. lithe alle- he thought, as a general principle, it would be wise gations were untrue, no harm was done, and if they to let the People state their complaints without re were true, let the House correct itself. He was sus- striction ; and it would be more manly in the House prised to hear from the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. to adopt the most liberal construction of the People's Wynn) that expressions of similar import bad never opinions, than to check them every moment by taking been used in any Petition to the House before. Did some verbal objections to their statements. Ile trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman remember the Petitions that the two of his Majesty's Cabinet Ministers,whom of the Friends of the People, in which the practice he saw just come into the Houseaeould take the libe and extent of seat-selling were offered to be proved ral side of the question, and vote with him for having at the bar of the house? Mr. Burke and Mr. Pitt. the Petition laid on the table. were then Members of the House—and he was sure Mr. PEEL said that it had not been his intention, the latter would be held in respect by the Hon. Gen- on coming into the House, to take any part in this tlemen opposite—and yet neither of these personages discussion, but having been directly appealed to by called the mover of the Petition to order. If the the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, as one champ of corruption had been put forward against of the two Members of Administration who just any individual, then indeed the Petition would have came in, Ire felt it his duty to offer a few observations been objectionable. With respect to the other part upon the subject before the House. He was not in of it. it appeared to him that the Petition attacked the House when the petition was read, but he believed not the Courts of Justice, but the prosecutors in po- that the copy which he held in his hand was authen. Btical cases ; and be believed that it was not con- tic, as it happened to be that which the Hon. Gentle.' trara to usage to impute to the immediate promoters man himself (Mr. Lambton) had just parted with. cf these prosecutions improper motives. As to Mr. After carefully attending to the terms of the Peti- Hunt, he had thought that a great number of the tion, he owned he could not come to the conclusion Members of the House were of opinion that he was that there was no intention shewn by the Petitioner's treated in a manner that was not intended by his to insult the House. Ile agreed with the lion. Gen sentence; hut as that subject %timid in a short time tleman opposite, that nothing was more imprudent come before the House, be would not now take up than for the House to check the expression of the their time by any observations upon it. He thought people's complaints, when they were presented to that some allowante ought to be made to the Yeti- them in the form of Petitions ; but, on the other hand, tioners for the god feeling they displayed ; they he trusted to the lion. Gentleman's candour to admit ought to get credit with the House for disinterested to him that it would be still more inexpedient in the zeal in behalf of one whom they thought to be op. House not to draw some limit to the expressions to pressed. It would be unfair to examine too strictly be employed in addressing that Mouse. The Hon. die language of men acted upon by such feelings, or Gentleman would surely admit to him that it was spew that they could be offended at the imputations possible that Petitions might come before them couched of the Petition, since by. doing so they only declared in language which it was not fit to present to that the truth of the charge. He was surprised to hear House ; and if so, was it not expedient that some line that an lion. Member below him could have so should be drawn, beyond which the expressions of Pe mistaken the nature of the Petition as to suppose titions ought not to go ? It was not merely their dig that it was the Petition of any other persons than pity that the House ought to feel interested about on the undersigned. such an occasion ; there were other trusts equally de- Sir M. W. RIDLEY, in explanation, stated that manding their care. They were bound to see that he had not attempted to throw any obstacle in the there should be no abuse of the privilege of petition; *ay of the Petition, or to say that it ought not to be for nothing could be more prejudicial to the fair ex received. All he wished to convey to the HoUse was, ercise of the tight of petition—nothing could be more that there was a great body of the inhabitants of fatal to its existence than the abuse of it. It must, Newcastle who were anxious to have it known that therefore, be admitted that some rule ought to be laid this Petition was not proposed at a Public Meeting, down—some line drawn, beyond which the language and that there was no opportenity given to the infra- of petitions should not be allowed to pass. What was the language in this case?—A studied attempt not balms to state their op i n ions u p on it Mr. LAM BTON thought it necessary to state that only to cast obloquy on the House, but on the most he had no idea of the Petition being on foot until h e valuable institutions of the country. The Petition ers received notice to present it. It was quite true that charged Government with instituting vindictive pro wls was not a Petition proposed at a Public Meeting, secutions for political offences, add, by insinua tion , and there were many reasons why a Public Meeting cast a slur on the administration of justice. They could not be held for the purpose. There was not stated, in express terms, tbat the punishment due to time for a Meeting to take place before the period of Mr. Hunt's offence was extended and aggravated, be vie motion fixed by the Hon. Baronet, the Member cause he was the known advocate of Parliamentary tor Westminster ; and, in addition to that ground, Reform. Was it possible that any persons could coin there were the obstacles and embarrassments against mit such a sentiment to paper without knowing that Meetings entailed on the country, by the enactment , it was inc,oasisteut with truth? If the House were to ! l!bk.,, „ be 1 Mr. HUMS said that ivea to/Seeable ' as the vat liras for one sum; but if dittmte wasdivided in t : heads, he had no objection to divide p: {•.~ r Me , t, the , ofstide,t g w a ould I este- , cm " 4 1 : 111 ". 0 .t con b ey. afferent _ ....a reason to lament. It_ upon imake to the vote asked this year for the) lymouth Breakwater. Up to la st each.. He h a d o bjections to rtaitem ent to license the dieowing ati of allftesaraint 1 alla decorum in the Petitions to that House, end at year there bad been expended 702,0001. upon t hi s last lead to more open km% He shotild conclude . work, but for the present year only 25,000 L was then by exhorting the house to maintain n asked. This he considered bad policy. He wouldot only its I dignity, but to preserve the great privilege of Peti rather that a larger sum bad been asked that ttle tion from the indiscreet abuse of it—(Hear): wark might be sooner finished. One great reason fr, t t, After a few words from Mr. MONCK, the House di vided on the question that the Petition be laid on the hastening i i I __ table. T superintendng establishment, which was kept up to a close was the ;teat expense of he numbers were— a yearly expense of 5,0001. The superintendant had Oh yes,. 1,0001. a year; besides house and _ .towances. With such an expense, then, he conceived it would be bet. ter to move for 60,0001. this year, the same as last year, and bring the work sooner to a close. Eithe r do that, or reduce the Staff. If a grant similar last year watmade now, the work would be in two years, but with grants of only 25,000/. a year, would be seven or eight years before it was perk He had also heard that some jobbing was going cr. in the way of the vessels employed. f nem were t 7 kinds of craft engaged in the work, one of which I A longed to Government, and the other was paid fv by contract. He had heard that the Goveriatent craft were dismissed, whilst the contract vessels v. , , ; retained. Against this jobbing he protested. Inste a d of the way in which the work must now proceeo, h, would recommend, as in the case of the Caledow.l l Canal, to take a vote of two years in advance, and by that means the expense of the superintending ev.. , blishment would be saved. But he wished it to '„ e understood, that in proposing this amendment, ! had no wish to put a stop to the work. There h.tr2 however,been a great deal of money expended up( dock-yards within these few years back. Since 1811 the expense had been from three to four and when the expense of this Estimate was added, would be altogether 5,400,0001. Tkere were some works he would put a stop to altogether, such al those at Trincomalee and Jamaica. His principal objection, however, was to Sheerness. He wou!, again recommend that no more money should bee/ pended there until the House saw the'r way beta Ile concluded by moving an amendment original vote be reduced to 104,0001. Sir JOHN OSBORN said he should make but few observations in reply to the statement of the II , )- nourable Member. With regard to S:ieerfiess, fifty thousand pounds would finish the new yard. IT smithery, which was in the old yard, was not in eluded, and the cost was 15,0001. With regard ti the utility of these works, he thought by this tine could be no longer questioned. The Hon. MeniL had talked of placing the works at Purfleet. IL (Sir John Osborn) supposed he meant Northfleet ; the expense would be quadruple that of Sheerness. With regard to the Plymouth Br eakwater, he did set agree with the Hon. Member in the policy of taking votes in advance, fur the expense cf the superi;:tenc ing establishment was very small. Tl.e Hon. Mer ber might know that it was the vessels employs upon the works which made the great expense. Or , ders had bean given to discontinue the expense by degrees. Perhaps it would take four or five years ti finish it; but, in the present circumstances, it v:.; more desirable to adhere to an economical syltm. Upon these grounds he was bound to support tl.: original vote. Sir .1. YOItKE said, that the question of the v•r l :3 at Sheerness divided itself into three parts—l st, ther it was expedient or politic to have under:A:a them at all ; 2dly, Whether there was a prob.sbi.ity that they would repay the public the sums expended on them ; and, lastly, whether, having gone so far, we should not go on and perfect them ? With regari to the first point, he should say, that there never was a public work undertaken more advisedly, or sanc tioned by greater authority, than the Dock-yards cf Sheerness. They were suggested and approved et by Mr. Watts, Captain Huddart, and Mr. Jes o:, the engineer. They were also approved by a Com mittee of the Navy Board. Mr. Rennie and Mr. Whitby had been employed to superintend them. It was under the sanction of these great names that thi: was undertaken, which would now stand the test of criticism—(Hear, hear).—He did not think that a Committee of that House could much improve upon the plans of the Gentlemen he had mentioned. tia much for the propriety of commencing the works.— As to the second point, he had no hesitation in say ing, that these works already made a large return, by the number of persons employed upon them ; and to the Hon. Member for Aberdeen he would say, that they served his constituents considerably by the use of Aberdeen granite—(Hear, hear).—He admitted, ' with the Hon. Member, that money had been la vished upon unnecessary works; but this work a: Sheerness promised to be of lasting utility. Uprqt the third point, he argued that the necessity of con tinning these works was strongly called for. There I was not at this time a dock at Chatham fit to receive a line-of-battle ship. Nay, even an ordinary vessel could not be safe there without running aground.— As to vessels being towed by steam-boats, it was true that there was an objection to Northfleet, which this partly removed; but the situation of Sheerness was still preferable. The main expense at Sheerness had been incurred by building a wall, to separate what was called Powder-Monkey Bay from the Great Basin ; and the danger was, that if the water broke into the basin, what was called a blow might happen. The lion. Member was nt.t incorrect in stating that, during the progress of the work, some accidents oc curred ; but there was only one of a serious nature. An additional expense of 70001. was incurred, in con sequence of that accident ; but no settlement came in the work from the sand-bank. As to the Ply mouth Breakwater, it was, in fact, already completed for all useful purposes. There was now 37 feet of water al the entrance-gates, a depth sufficient to take in the largest ship of war in Europe, with all her stores — (Hear). —If this was nothing, then might the lion. Member say, indeed, that our money was thrown away. He wished that this great structure was com pleted, but as the useful part of it was already finished, he was friendly to the smaller vote for reasons of co nomy. The Breakwater at this time afforded shelter and protection to a great number of merchant vessels. The Hon. Member here read a letter which he had received from the superintendant of the Breakwater, in which it was stated, that during the heavy gales there had been no less than twenty merchant vessels saved in the Sound last year. If it bad not been for a French ship which broke her cable, he believed the Ayes - 22 Noes - 123 Majority against the Petition - —lOl Mr. HUME presented a Petition of a similar no tore, so far as regarded the liberation of Mr. Hunt, from the Burgesses of Paisley.— Ordered to be printed. COMMITTIOI OF SUPPLY. The CH ANCELLORof the EXCII EQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House ping into a Com mittee of Supply.—Upon the question being put, Mr. IIUME rose to ask whether it was not intended to bring on the Superannuation Bill, and the Re ceiver-General's Bill, this night ? It appeared to him that if the House went into the Committee of Supply, as that would occupy the whole night, a fair discus sion of the two other Bills could not be expected. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that it wai not the intention to bring on the first of the Bills alluded to by the Hon. Member, until the sche dules were completed. These were not yet in so for ward a state as to be brought before the House. With regard to the other Bill, he wished to state that it would not be brought forward to-night, and the Hon. Member might be assured there was no indisposition in Ministers to submit it to the fullest discussion. Mr. BENNET said that it was his intention, upon a former night, to have opposed the amount of salary paid to the First Lord of the Admiralty and the Chief Clerk, but as the Report was brought up in his ab sence he had lost the opportunity or so doing. Indeed he had intended to take the sense of the House upon these two officers. He rose now for the purpose of entering his protest against these salaries, that he might not be taken as assenting to them. NAVY ESTIMATES. The House then went into the Committee. Sir JOHN OSBORN moved a vote of 151,200/. for defraying the expense of improvements in his Majesty's D..ck-yards for the year 1822. Mr. HUME said, that when these Estimates were last laid before the House, a good deal of discussion arose upon this item. He would take the liberty of reminding the House of the grounds upon whiCh he then stated his objections to the vote now called for. Ills principal objection was to the large sum required for perfecting-the works at Sheerness. He would still contend that no more money ought to be voted for these works, until the House had better information as to the propriety of continuing them. In 1814, it was stated that a sum not exceeding 824,9921. would be sufficient to complete the works at Sheerness, but, like all other great public works, after expending 1,355,000/. which was 530,1081. more than the origi nal estimate, a considerable sum was still wanted to finish them. By the calculations which he made, the whole sum expended for these works, IA hen finished, would be no less than 2,100,0001. Now, under these circumstances, when so large a sum was required, it would be wise not to spend another pound until the House had better information as to the propriety of proceeding further. The greatest difference of opi nion prevailed, when these works were first proposed, as to whether Sheerness was the fittest place for the Dock-yards, and in the opinion of many Purfleet was thought a better place. But a difficulty then existed as to Purfleet which had been since removed. By the application of steam-boats to the towing of ships of war, the largest vessels were towed down from Dept ford and Ar% oolwich, against wind and tide; and therefore the objection to Purfleet in that respect was removed. Purfleet had also the advantage in other respects, and more particularly in the ground, which was of a firmer nature than at Sheerness. Accident after accident happened every year at Sheerness, for the works were built upon piles driven into the quick sands. In 1820 several thousands were spent in re pairing damage occasioned by an irruption of the sea. He had seen a statement, but could not vouch fur its correctness, that if the works at Sheerness were now put a stop to, and new works begun at Purfleet, it would actually take less to get up these latter, than to finish the former ones. Besides which it was un certain whether the works at Sheerness could be ever completed. But was it not advisable, in the present distie,sed state of the country, to weigh well the ne cessity of these works, before going to more expense? What was the necessity for so much dry dock ? When the Navy was building it might be necessary, but when it was now complete, and there appeared no immediate occasion for enlarging it, he would sug gest that these works might be given up for the pre sent. The whole sum to be expended upon these works at Sheerness, when completed, would amount to 2,100,0001. He had a great distrust of Govern ment as to conducting public works. It too often happened that millions were spent upon works, and then they were left unfinished. He contended that the care of these works ought not to be entrusted to any single Board, but that a Committee of this House should take cognizance of them. He would have this Committee call engineers and examine them—not only the engineers employed by Govern ment, but all others who were most capable of forming an opinion upon the works. With this view it was his intention to vote only 20,0001. for carrying on the works this year, at least until the Committee , he had spoken of had made their Report. And to this Committee he did not see how an objection could be made. Sorely if the Report was favourable to the work, it would but accelerate its progress; and if it was unfavourable, it was well that the inexpediency of proceeding further was discovered without loss of time. He should therefore propose to seduce this vote by 50,0001. as to Sheerness, and upon a future occasion he would move for the Committee which he alluded to. Mr. BROODEN was about to put the question upon this amendment, but Mr. HUME said he had yet some observations to make upon the Breakwater at Plymouth. Sir JOSEPH YORKE suggested that it would be well to divide upon the amendment which had ken already proposed. nilar to finished a year, • ~1 11 erfectec I going c r. • - were L'AG •hiclt b!. 111 paid fr x ,etiimemt sets Instead Keeo, nce, and ling 1 it to Tient, ! ere h•id„ led upon 1 ncelSll mi;lions, added, it ere some such :vs principq 1 Ie woutd ild be ex- ty better. that the ke hat a. ness, fifty IS 110 t irr time it . Member feet. ifteet; Sheerness. he did set of taking peri;:tenc. on. Clem. employed !.rise. Epense by re years t es, it al sylte7:. ippnrt NO u el c CI Cl it