Star. — London, England, 1821-05-15 00:00:00

- . Petition, he asked could there be anything more of?.. fensive.to the House ?—{Near.) The Clerk referred to the Petition, but The SPEAKER recommended that the whole Pe tition !hould be read over again. The Clerk read the Petition a second time. _ On the cpiest;on that lie on the table, Mr. CURWEN rose to oppose the motion, which would, if carried, open a wide door for abuse in the shape of Petitions against the proceedings of Com. mimes of that House. Strangers vt ere here ordered to withdraw, but when the Gallery had been partially cleared for a division, the opposition was waived, and the Petition ordered to lie on the table. NEWINGTON SELECT VESTRY BILi. Mr. H SUMNER said, that however important was the proposition of which he had given notice, he would, nevertheless, consent to its postponement until to-morrow, on account of the other important busi• Less about to be then discussed. Mr. DENISON said a few words, and was pro• ceeding to discuss the merits of the Bill, when he was called to order by The SPEAKER, who said the Hon. Gentleman was quite out of order in introducing topics likely to lead to a debate. Sir• F. BURDETT reminded the House that he had given notice of a motion for to-morrow, which he • could not consent to postpone. Mr. BENNETT said he also had a motion for to morrow, the discussion of which he could not con sent to postpone. The ‘larquis of LONDONDERRY moved the Order of the Day, that the House should resolve itself in a Committee of Supply. Dr. LUSHINGTON wished to remind the Hon; Member l Mr. Sumner) that there were also two bal lots file for tomorrow, in addition to the other businc , s Alluded to by two other Hon. Members ; and urged, therefore, the inconvenience that would arise from the postponement of his (Mr. Sumner's) motibn. Serjeant ONSLOW said the second reading of his Bill respecting the Usury Laws was fixed also for to morrow. It was a question in which the Public was much interested, and he could not think of yielding precedence to the Hon. Gentleman. The SPEAKER said, the hour had arrived which, by general consent, had been fixed for the commence-' ment of public business. The Noble Marquis had moved the Order of the Day, and it was for the House to dispose of it. Serjeant ONSLOW again urged the importance of his measure. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY could con ceive tv . ) public business of greater importance than that which he had proposed. Neither the Bank of - Ireland Bill, nor that respecting the Usury Laws, was of so pressing a nature as the Committee of Supply. Sir JOHN NEWPORT only pressed for the dis- cussion of the Bank of Ireland Bill in its proper . . order, he being anxious that the clause he intended to move to render Roman Catholics eligible to the office of Directors, should come on when the House would be full. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was not his intention to press the Bill alluded to by the Hon. Baronet at a late hour, but trusted he would satisfy him when the discussion should come on. After a few words from Mr. BRIGHT, Mr.DRNISON wished to know from his Hon. Colleague when his • measure would come on? Mr. IL SUMNER felt an earnest desire to facilitate the public business; and, in consequence of the two ballots fixed for to-morrow, he would postpone his motion till Wednesday. Mr. G. BENNETT wished to know what the Hon.l Member meant to propose ? After a few words from Mr. DAVEXPORT and Ser jeant ONSLOW, the Order of the ll.ty was read. COMMITTEE Of SUPPLY. On the question that the sum of £13,071 12s. Bd. be granted for defraying the expenses of the Offices of Ordnance in the Tower and Pall-Mall, Mr. It. WARD replied to some observations of Mr. Hume, made on a former night. The Hon. Gen tleman (Mr. Hume) would find that there were, in' the Ordnance department, 67 new appointments, only 22 of which had been made by the Noble Duke, the Master of the Ordnance. Of these 22, five of them were to small places, such as could not be filled lip from the Half-pay list, being only armourers and as• sistant-clerks.—(Here the Hon. Gentleman was quite inaudible, from the low tone in which he spoke, and the noise in the House.) Colonel DAVIES said that it appeared, from the Report of the Committee of Military Inquiry, that the patronage of the Ordnance was vested in the, heads of departments, and not in the Master-General, thus forming a kind of imperium in imperiv ; and, he would ask, how could the Master-General coutroul officers so appointed? Mr. WARD entered into a statement of the con stitution of the Ordnance Board. There were four principal officers appointed by patent, who sat at the Board, but who did not vote, and who appointed their own clerks. Colonel DAVIES would ask, how could the Noble Duke at the head of the Ordnance be expected to direct all, when the appointment of the subordinate officers was vested in other puppets ? Mr. NVARD would suppose, from the observations made by the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, thane had never heard any part of the previous de bates upon the Ordnance Establishment ; for he had betrayed a total want of inforniation on the subject. The Hon. Gentleman here entered into a statement, and a defe.lce of the manner in which the situations in the Ordnance were filled up. Mr. BIRCH agreed with the Hon. Member who had proposed a reduction of the Estimates, on the ground of economy. When, on a late occasion, it had been proposed that we should interfere in the Fairs of Italy, it had been very properly objected to by the other side, that it would be absurd to do so, we not having the means of enforcing our mediation or remonstrances. The Hon. Gentleman here entered into a comparative statement of our war expenses and those of France, by which it appeared that our eapenses exceeded those of France by a sum of five millions and a half ; and if the statement of his Hon. Friend was correct, it would be nearly six millions. lie then adverted to the National Debt of the two anuistries, maintaining that France, with a Sinking Fluid of forty millions of flatus. had a surplus be. fond its expenditure of e 300,000 per annum. He also remarked upon the appointment of fifteen clerks, who were denominated Corresponding Clerks : he could not well understand what that meant, but he had heard there was a correspondence carried on be tween those above and those below stairs—(A l aug h). Mr. WARD said, the Hon. Gentleman having made his statement in jest, he would also treat that part of the subject lightly, and admit that there was acoirespondence between one office and another. Mr. GORDON said, the observations of the Ho nourable Gentlemen on both sides had convinced him that it was the custom for clerks to cut out work for themselve4. Mr WARD defended the appointment of these fifteen clerks. Mr.,HUME intended to be understood to say, that from the termination of the war up to the present time, sixty-seven individuals had been appointed to civil offices, whose salaries amounted to £6939 per annum. Sixty of these had been appointed to offices become vacant, and seven to offices never before in existence ; all of which, he contended, might have been filled up from the half-pay and superannuated lists—which not having been done, caused a loss to the country of nearly £'7ooo per annum. He reminded the House, that the Hon. Member had on a former occasion contradicted him, when he stated that the tonnage of the Ordnance vessel, the Lord Howe, was twenty tons. The Hon. Member opposite then stated the vessel to be one of thirty tons, but this was in di rect opposition to a Return which he (Mr. Hume) had now in his hand, and which rated the vessel at twenty tons, as he himself had originally stated it.— This, he contended, was a fair specimen of the Hon. Member's accuracy. He (Mr. Hume) reprobated the keeping up'of so large a number of Ordnance craft, in opposition to a positive recommendation of the Finance Committee. He contended, that the number of Ordnance clerks was also too large, and that their salaries ought to be now reduced, in consequence of the fall in the prices of the necessaries of lire, in the same proportion as those salaries had been, some years ago, increased for the purpose of meeting the increased expenses of the necessaries of living. lie maintained, that a saving of several thousand pounds might be made, by consolidating the Tower and the Westminster Establishments. The offices of clerk of the livery and storekeeper were recommended to be abolished by the Military Commissioners; why were not these offices abolished in compliance with that recommendation ? The Ordnance Department was held up as a model of economy, but, in fact, there was no other public department in which the public money was so uselessly expended as in this. He did not care whether those useless expenses were origi nated or kept up by Whig or Tory. He was equally against Whig or Tory, .who kept up or encouraged such an expenditure as this--(Hear, hear).—He meant no disrespect to the Duke of Wellington ; but it was manifest, from his being a Memher of Coun cil, it was impossible that he could attend to the duties of Master of the Ordnance. Eighty thousand pounds I a-year was allowed for the repair of fortifications, and }et the fortifications were all falling to pieces.— With respect to gratuities, he thought that on prin ciple they were extremely objectionable, since they were bestowed, not as rewards of active industry, but were given indiscriminately to clerks, after a cer tain standing. He complained that sufficient informa , tion had not been given to the House, to enable it to understand these Estimates, and concluded with moving a reduction of twenty-five per cent. on the, amount of the pay and allowance of the Tower and Westminster Establishments. The vote before the House would in this way be reduced from £63,000 to £17,457. _ Mr. WARD rose to answer some of the observa tions of the lion. Member. As to the Staff pay, which the Hon. Gentleman said was concealed, he said it came naturally under the head Military Con tingencies, but for the sake of convenience it was put under the head of Repairs. He begged leave to say, that at the recommendation of the Noble Duke at the head of the Department, the Staff pay would be in future divided from the head of Repairs. The Committee would recollect the dispute between him and the Hon. Gentleman respecting a ship, of which the Hun. Gentleman accused him of giving a false return. His reply, the last time the subject was un der consideration, was so overwhelming, that the Hon. Gentleman did not know how to get out of the, scrape. What did he do then?—Why, resolved to get out ()fit some way or another, he changes the' name of the ship, and then changes the whole trans action, for he turned the name of the ship from the ' Harmony into the Lord Howe. He (Mr. Ward) gave the Hon. Gentleman full credit for sincerity, and was sure that he religiously believed everything which he asserted. The misfortune was, that not only did he believe what he asserted himself, but what every one. else asserted to him. To the unusual size of the Hon. Gentleman's maw for taking in reports, were to be attributed the various difficulties into which the Hon. Gentleman was from time to time betrayed. As this was a case of a personal nature, and as the Honour able Member and lie were engaged in a sort of con tention for the character of superior accuracy of in formation, it would not be thought invidious, he hoped, if he considered the causes of the mistakes into which the Hon. Gentleman was frequently - led. And the first cause he would take the liberty of stating was, what Sterne called " honest gullibility." He did not mean to speak unworthily of this property of the Hon. Gentleman, for he agreed fully with .the self-same Sterne, when he said, " En- be it from me not to wish to possess a fair share of this honest gul libility, for I consider it as one of the greatest sources of !Inman happiness." If, then, it were a blessing, as was here represented, and if it did make the man happy who had the good fortune to possess it, then was the Hon. Member opposite the most blessed of human kind— ( Laughter). —The Hon. Member then said, that he would give some proofs of this " honest gullibility," and entered into a history of the state ments of the Hon. Member respecting the men of Queenborough, noticing as he went on the different errors of the Hon. Member with respect to the sub ject: he noticed particularly the assertion that Sir J. Gore, the Admiral at Sheerness, entered into a nego tiation for the purchase of the house belonging to the Ordnance Storekeeper at Sheerness, and read a letter from the gallant Admiral, in which he unequi vocally denies the truth of the story, or that there existed even a shadow.of a foundation for it. The Hon. Member then proceeded to the consideration of the second cause of the Hon. Member's (Mr. Hume's) mistakes, namely, a certain confusion of his faculties, instancing his confounding floating magazines with floating batteries ; and his confounding the emolu ments of the Ordnance men, who were mostly Queen borough men, with unnecessary grants to those men, in order to preserve the Borough in the hands of Go vernment. He would also state another instance of his confusion : the Hon. Member had boldly aserted that Clerks belonging to the Ordnance Department were permitted,, after a service of three or four years, to re tire op full pay.—[\4r. H um E: " I never stated it."j— I know he did not mean to state it, but I charge him with confusion—with stating that which he did not intend to state, and that when he said full pay, he only meant half-pay. But the Honourable Member bad boasted that by his motions and inquiries he had done a great deal of good to the country. He (Mr. Ward) gave him credit for intending well ; he and the lion. Member had been engaged in a personal contest—they had fought various pitched battles, and it was foi the House, who had witnessed the contest, to decide with whom the victory rested. It m• h t not be wholly unamusing either, to consider in Hwhat light some persons out of doors had looked upon the mutnal relation in which he (Mr. Ward) and the Hon. Member stood in that House ; and he did not know that he would be doing justice to the lion. Member, or to his own judgment, if he pre ferred for special notice any other portrait of the Hon. Member than that which• was recorded in the following lines: Even Haltiison's best explanation be spurns, But ever is calling for farther Returns; When Papers are granted He's never contented ; But condemns them as vague e'en before they're presented ! A! Mr. HUME—Is that from John Bull?—(Much laughing). Mr.W ARD—Certainly not ; I can assure the Hon. Gentleman that I am as much cut up in that publi. ' cation as the Honourable Member himself. He then proceeded to treat of the third cause of the lion. Gentleman's errors—great exaggeration ; and in stanced his disposition to magnify salaries, and upon the least appearance of an improvident settlement of any of the clerks, to brand the department as the most proPigate and extravagant of all public esta blishments. lie instanced especially the charge that the office of Clerk of Survey at Waltham Abbey was created on purpose for Mr. Breeze, because lie was a Queenborough man. He then spewed that this indi vidual had been actually in the service for twenty five years, before he received this office. The Hon. Gentleman complained of the expense of maintain-, ing powder magazines. He (Mr. Ward) stated that the Noble Duke at the head of the department put down five out of the twelve floating magazines. If the maintenance of these magazines was intended as a means of patronage over Queenborough, it was very extraordinary that they should have been re duced to such a number as by experience was scarcely sufficient for the purpose of preserving the quantity of powder distributed amongst them. He next ad verted to a mistake of the Honourable Member with respect to an item of £ll,OOO in the Estimates. He (Mr. flume) said that the sum was exclusive of re pairs and materials, whilst the Return in his hand might have shewn him that this sum did actually include those repairs. The truth was, that much of the Honourable Gentleman's time seemed to have been occupied by reveries. A reverie was that state of mind during which images passed through it in rapid succession without any exercise of the under standing; and this was the state of mind in which the Honourable Member seemed to have passed his time. He did nothing, indeed, but dream—ever dream of the Ordnance Department— , " The Ilan. Member's eye, in a fine phrensy Glances from earth to Heaven from Heaven to earth. And as imagination bodies forth The forms of things unknown, the Member's tongue Can give to airy nothing A local habitation and a name !"—(lfrar, and a laugh). The lion. Member then adverted to the case of Cap tain Dickenson, which had been brought forward by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, and made the subject of so much reproach to the heads of the Ordnance Department. He (Mr. Ward) then justified the libe rality of the Board to this Officer, whom he repre sented to be a very old and deserving individual, and who had spent his life in the service. He next ad verted to the charge that the Artillery Establishment was kept up on the scale of a War Establishment. He admitted that there had been an increase of Clerks, but contended that the remainder of the Establish ment had been considerably reduced, and stated that it was in contemplation to do away with the gratui ties, although the salaries were much under the ave rage of the Army and Navy Establishments. The Honourable Gentleman had next quarrelled with the existence of the Board, and insisted upon carrying into effect its annihilation, in pursuance of the recom mendation of a Finance Committee— " Ye Gods, annihilate both space and time, And make two lovers happy !" The Hon. Gentleman would no doubt be happy by the event, but he (Mr. Ward) doubted if it were quite so practicable or reasonable a work. The Honourable Member entered into a short statement, intended to describe the nature of the services of this Board. He next considered the charge with respect to the amoupt of the Treasurer's salary, and made some observations in justification of it. He defended a contract for horses, which had been made, in 1815, by a Right Hon. Friend of his, then absent (Mr. W. Pole), whose services in bringing to maturity the useful powers of this establishment he eulogised in warm terms ; and concluded by repeating his belief, that the Honour able Member opposite had acted upon a conviction of the truth of his assertions ; but declared his unal terable opinion, that the persons from whom the Hon. Member derived his information, were, for the most part, either rogues, or very great fools. Colonel DAVIES defended his Honourable Friend (Mr. Hume) from the personal attack of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ward). There was not one Hon. Gentleman in the Houselo whom the charges of the Hon. Gentleman less applied than to his Hon. Friend. The whole speech of the Hon. Gentleman consisted' of either irrelevant matter or personal attacks on a set of argvmcnta ad honiinem, but were not at all ap plicable to the subject before the House. He had charged his lion. Friend'with giving to airy nothings " a local habitation and a name," but the secret of the thing was, the Hon. Gentleman had then swallow ed a pill which hclound very difficult of digcstign!i Flow, he would ask, did the Hon. Gentleman :Q om for the excess of the expenditure in the Ordn snc , Department above the sums voted ? How did he ac., count for the appropriation grants? The Hon. G ee , tleman (Colonel Davies) then compared the Estimates of the present year, with what they had been in 1809, at the time of the Walcheren expedition; and cots. tended, that the number of clerks was at prese ss greater than when they had more to do, mad their united salaries amounted to a sum by many thou sands more than it was then—(l - lear, kear)._„ He condemned the bestowing of excessive gratuities by the Board of Ordnance, and disapproved higlq of the profligate expenditure of the public moue/ in building useless fortresses around the coast. It wa s imputed to him, and to those Honourable Frt& around him, that they made a vexatious and silly op. position to grants, of which they could only propose a reduction of £3,000 or £3,000. But a reduction of £3,000 or £4,000 in many of the extravagant votes which came before the House, would soon swell up to £3,000,000 or £4,000,000; for the million con sisted of hundreds and thousands; and if they only saved the penny, the pound would take care of itself. Let them prune away, every excrescence, and by saving small sums they might, he would not say, re. duce the National Debt, but they might remove one million of those taxes which pressed on agriculture and trade. Small savings were not to be overlooked, and as long as he had the honour of a seat in the House, he would continue to press on them the nevus. sity of retrenchment. Sir ULYSSES BURGH said, that instead of the sixty-seven appointmenti mentioned by that Honour. able Gerit!eman.(Mr. Hume), only thirteen hadtaken place since the coming into office of the Kesent ter of the Ordnance, and that these thirteen apt:wi ld , ments were of the most deserving objects. Mr. HUME, amidst loud cries of " Question," said he would not detain the Committee more than for a very few observations. The lion. Gentleman (Mr. Ward) had indulged in a sort of personal attack on himself, instead of confining himself to the question before the Committee. He had collected his scraps of poetry, and let fly so many sallies of wit, by which he thought he had gai.ied to himself a triumph ova his (Mr. flume's) charges. It was extremely uncha ritable, to say the least of it, to make his (Mr. Hume's) errors and infirmities, the subject of his humour. if he possessed these infirmities, it was more his mar fortune than his fault. The Hon. Gentleman, (M 4 Ward) had imputed to him gullibility, or Gullibility-- he did not k - novs' which —( Laughing )—nor did be much care—but be must take leave to say that tie gullibility and confusion with which lie charged him (Mr. Hume) were entirely of the Hon. Gentleman's own creating. He, indeed, triumphantly dwelt at one mistake which he discovered, but the wonder to him (Mr. Hume) was, that he did not discovei more. He made no answer to the twenty substantial charges which he (Mr. Hume) had brought again t him. ffu flights of wit and , personal attacks were a proof that he had nothing mpre substantial to say iu answer to all his (Mr. Hume's) charges. The vote which the Committee was to call on to grant, was for E 63,000 for a Department, which, in 1796, cost only £lB,OOO. As he saw no reasons given for so large a demand, he would propose a reduction of 25 per cent. which would be £15,750 less than the sum proposed. The House divided on Mr. Humes Amendment: For it - - 78 Against it - - 134 Majority for the Original Vote —56 The next grant that was disputed was the sum of £20,163 3s. 44. for the Ordnance Department ie Woolwich, &c. Mr. HUME objected to the keeping up various esta blishments which had become sinecures. He thougk the Fire-masters at Portsmouth and Plymouth bhould be reduced, and also the Assistant Fire-master at the Royal Laboratory, and the Inspector of Artillery, arid other new officers created during the war. The esta blishment at Sheerness he objected to most strongly, as attended with the greatest expellee, and kept up for other purposes. He hoped the Hon. Gender= (Mr. Ward) would inquire into the charges of peculatice which he (Mr. Hume) had against many of those per sons ; and he thought they should not be allowed to let their own house% which were allowed them rent• free, and go and live in Queenborough, for electios purposes. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by pro• posing a reduction of £.5040, which would be deduct ing twenty-five per cent. from the different and which would leave them as good as they wee during the war. Mr. WARD said, the Hon. Member was incorrect in all his calculations, for the greatest part of ha authority seemed to rest on anonymous letters. Sir WM. CO:s/GREVE, in reply to the charge brought against him of being a sinecurist and a ply ralist, would merely state that the amount of his env. luments was 255. per diem—namely, 20s. a day is the Laboratory, and .ss. as Superintendent of Military Machinery. In the latter department he laboured heart and hand, and neither could ever possible become a sinecure. Mr. J. SMITH bore testimony to the ingenious* the meritorious, the useful exertions of the gallua Officer, whose situations certainly were not sinecure. Sir G. COCKBURN felt it to be his duty, after what had been said, to declare that the Navy was deeply indebted to the gallant Officer (Sir Wrn.Coo. greve) for the improvements he had introduced in AP ranging magazines, and in the sights of guns, besides various other improvements. Mr. GREY BENNETT argued for retrenchment in this branch of the public service, contending tits it was quite practicable. He contended that the 12 ' bours of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Hume) had already done a great deal of good; for now eve r t exertion was making to effect retrenchment in all the departments of the public service —(Hear, hoe). Mr. HUME, in his reply, undertook to point out a quarter where a considerable saving might be made with great safety. The Department to which be al' luded was that of the Paymaster at Woolwich. Deo were only a few men there; not more in all than 68a and yet there was a Paymaster for them, at a sale/ of £SOO a-year. This Office also had Clerks. is thought that at least this situation might be dispel with. He repeated his objections to an Windt* holding two situations at the same time. Mr. J. SMITH said, that however anxious he W for retrenchment, he could not consent that a 014 Officer (Sir M. Cowper) who had been so long in the service, should be deprived of kis Wary. Be theta Llimm - 'NNE T of of