Star. — London, England, 1823-03-04 00:00:00

'se when they Were persecuted by the Government. He should' then be compelled to sit the silent specta tor of such attacks upon his own personal conduct, and upon the whole Government of Ireland. Mr. ABERCROMBY said, it was not his inten tion to follow his Right Hon. Friend through all the observations he had thought proper to make—(Near, /ear).—He was, indeed, exceedingly surprised at the grounds upon which he had been asked to put off his Motion. It was not his intention to introduce in his motion one word upon the subject which his Right Hon. Friend had called recent transactions in Dublin. Consistently with the opiniom he had expressed at an early period of the Session, as to the nature of Orange Societies, he had been advised by friends, in whose judgment and confidence he relied, to bring forward the measure, of which he had given notice: And his object was to trace the origin, progress, and ge• neral condition of those bodies, and to endeavour to induce the House to consider them as a part of the general system of Government in Ireland; he did not, of course, mean to allude to individuals, but to call upon the House to express an opinion of the ge neral conduct of the Irish Government in connection with them. He considered the question which he should have the honotir to introduce to be as dis tinctly opposite to the case of his Right Hon. Friend as possible. In fact, he had understood it to be the impression on all, that his motion would rather assist that case than otherwise. He was, therefore, sur prised when he had this clear and distinct object in his mind, that his Right Hon. Friend should have made such an appeal to him. He did not at all see the objections which had been stated; but if it would be a personal convenience to his Right Hon. Friend, lie would give way. Knowing, however, that many persons had remained in this country on account of 'the motion, and that his Right Hon. Friend's request hid been made on behalf ot others, he did not feel at liberty to accede to it. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said, there was a motion of the Hon. Member fur Aberdeen, which had pre cedence of that of the Hun. and Learned Gentleman, and suggested that it should be withdrawn. Mr. HUME assented. 11Ir:1"I:IiNKETT rose simply for the purpose of assuring his Hon. and Learned Friend, that if he imagined his motion to have left in his mind any im pression that it was hostile to him, he was never so mistaken ; quite the reverse. Mr. ALIERUROMBY wished to ask the Hon. Member for Sandwich, whether it was his intention to waive his motion for to-monow night? If not, he must postpone his own to Wednesday. Mr. SL said, he should. be most happy to comply w ith the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's r.:rpest ; but he did not suppose that hks motion would occupy so much time as to interfere with that of the lion. aml Learned Member. The commercial inte rests would stiffer from delay, aid the measure had already been put off twice. Mr. AIa:IR:ROM IIY—" Then I postpone my novice to Wednesday." Mr. I give notice that I shall persist in my motion to-morrow. Th.? Ol der, order. As it is r:fir withdrawn, of coure the Hon. Member's motion %yin have prec2dence." SI;(;ATI Mr. NVIIITNIORE prosented a l'tition from scve• ral Merchants, Agents, Traders, and others engaged in trade to the Ettt Indies, and resident in London, praying for an equalization of the Duties on Sugar coming from the East and West rndies. The Hon. Member wished to ask the Right Hon. the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, what his intentions were 'upon this question ? It had been understood that a promise was given last Session to appoint a Com mittee for its investigation. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, be found it difficult to answer the question, without giving more information than it was fitting should be given at present. With regard to the pledge of last year, he was not a party to it individually, and he only understood it to refer to the one particular point of the five shilling duty. Mr. PLUME said, that he had clearly understood the pledge horn the Chancellor of the Exchequer to refer to the whole question of :sugars from the East and We,t Indies. Mr. FORBES said, the question was one or the greatest importance, as it involved the interests of millions of the population of India. Mr. LUSHINGTON said, that the pledge was li mited to the particular duty then under discussion. Mr. W. SMITH understood the pledge distinctly to relate to the whole subject. The LORD MAYOR stated, that be had under stond it in the same manner. Mr. BA RING said, it was desirable that the ques tion should be set at rest for the benefit of all parties. Therefore, if the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made up his mind to grant a COM. mittee, it was but fair•to all parties that the Com mittee should be appointed as soon as possible. He hoped the question would be put into the hands of a Committee competent to consider it with all the in formation and attention which it required. Mr. ELLIS was not present when the pledge was liven, but he did not think it likely that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer would have given such a pledge as some represented, without communicating it to some West India merchants either in or out of that Honse. Mr. G. BENNET would ask, whether he or his lion. Friend (Mr. Hume) should have suffered such a measure to pass at two o'clock in the morning, with out a pledge to the effect which his Honourable Friend had described ? Mr. M A RR YATT said the evidence was most con tadictory, and he should not believe that a pledge could have been given upon one subject for the pur pose of carrying another. Mr. WHITMORE said, that to cut this conversa tion short, he should give notice of a motion fot Wednesday, the 19th of March, for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the subject.—The Pe tition was ordered to be printed. SCOTCH Ref:GM. Lord A. HAMILTON wished to ask the Learned Lord opposite, whether be inteuded to make any al teration in the Bill proposed last Session, relative to the Royal Scotch Burghs? The LORD ADVOCATE said, the Bill had been • r prepared under the authority of a Committee of Oe' House, and he should therefore not . propose any al teration in it. It was, however, , competent for the Noble Lord, dr any other- Member of that House, to propose an alteration. Lord A. HAMILTON then gave notice of a mo tion on the subject for the 21st inst. SINKING FUND. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee on the National Debt Re duction Act.—The Order was accordingly read ; and the House having resolved itself into a Committee, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that as the object of his addressing the Committee was to propose a series of Resolutions recommended by the Commit:ee of last year, he flattered himself they would not meet with any opposition. He, ne vertheless, thought it better to preface them with a few observations, explanatory of the view taken by his Majesty's Government of the subject to which they referred. Of that subject it was impossible not to see the importance and the difficulty. It was dif ficult, principally from the acknowldged fact, that whatever the talents which had a t different times been exercised on the subject, whatever the zeal and resolution of those who had examined them, expe -1 dente had told us that their plans had often met with interruption, embarrassment, and counter-ac- I tion. This had induced tnimy persons to infer that it was altogether useless to follow up the plan ; but these previous failures afforded, in his mind, no rea son for not endeavouring to effect the important ob ject. The argument of those who thought so, would, if generally aioplied, lead to the paralyzing of the energies of every country. It would apply even to the reduction of taxation ; for if he, when pressed to a reduction of taxation, we: e to say, Do not ask for the reduction ; because there is no doubt a time will come when they will be wanted again ;" his an swer would be deservedly scouted. There was, how ever, one inference which Parliament ought to draw from the past. They would see that if it was difficult, from the known mutability of human affairs, to cal culate much on the future, it was particularly neces sary for us to be vigilant in the examination of our income and expenditure, in order that we might se cure a surplus towards the discharge of debt; to ob serve a firm, but moderate line of policy ; to avoid engaging in those conflicts which rendered the get ting of such a surplus difficult; at the same time not forgetting, that if aggression required to he repressed, if the national honour rendered a conflict indispen sable, it became the duty of the People to make every sacrifice necessary to the attainment of those important and desirable ,objects—(//car, hear). — He had before observed, that the plans devised for advantageously appropriating our surplus Revenue, had become difficult in consequence of the failure of previous plans on the same subject. To judge, however, properly of those plans, it was necessary that we should consider the circumstances attend ing them ; and he thought a fair review of those circumstances entitled him to say, that he need not anticipate any insurmountable difficulty which would attend the subject in ordinary times—(Near, hear). —The circumstances which almost immediately fol. lossed the first adoption of Mr. Pitt's plan respecting the Sinking Fund, were of so extraordinary a cha'rac ter, and events followed each other with such rapidity and in such disorder, that human calculation was baffled, and it was scarcely possible to form an accu rate opinion on the merits of a plan necessarily affected by those circumstances and those events.— For the sake of human happiness, he trusted they would never be witnessed again ; and he hoped, that if we steadily applied ourselves to the obtaining of a surplus revenue, we should not meet any future in terruptions. He would, in the first place, examine the state of our debt, on a comparison of the present time with that at which it was at its highest. This he did because those whose opinions were unfavour able to the Snaking Fund had said that they were not' to expect any reduction of burdens as to our debt.— Since the year 1816, at which time our debt' was at its highest, there had been an actual diminution of debt, not great undoubtedly, but it was an actual diminu tion, and must neces-arily have arisen from a surplus revenue. On the sth of January, 1816, the whole Funded Debt was 816,311,9401. and the Unfunded 48,511,3861. making a total of 864,523,3261. The charge for the Funded was upwards of thirty millions, and that for the Unfunded 2,100,0001. On the sth of January, 1823, the whole Funded Debt was 796,530,1441. and the Unfunded was 43,526,6211. — The charge was, in respect of the Funded Debt, 28,100,0001.—in respect of the Unfunded, 1,162,7521. So that, en the comparison of the two years be had taken, it 'would he found there had been, a reduc tion in the Funded Debt of 19,781,796/. and in the Unfunded of 4,984,7251. being a total of 24,766,521/. This, from the year 1816, gave an average of three millions and a half for each year. This reduction would have been considerably larger but for the mode which had last year been adopted, of converting the Navy Five per Cents. into Four per Cents. and which had materially, though beneficially, affected the ca pital. This difference was so great, that it might be safely taken at ten millions fur the last year. If this were brought into the calculation, the diminution would not be less than 35 millions. But if the charge were considered, for this was the most material to be looked . at, on a comparison of the same two years, it would be found that the diminution in the amount of charge exceeded three millions. Was it possible, then, for any man to take the Paper he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) held in his hand, and say it was hopeless to attempt to reduce the National Debt?—He thought not; and he trusted this House would not consider it unreasonable in him to ask the House to continue a plan which had already yielded some advantage. In the hope that the House would receive it favourably, he should propose Resolutions, stating, in substance, that we might assume - the Sinking Fund to start at rive millions. It might be, and indeed it had been said, why pro pose the particular sum of five millions? Certainly there was no magic in that particular sum, nor was there any reason for takipg that in preference to any other. - It was about, rather more, perhaps, than the average of the excess of expenditure, and it was in conformity with the Resolution of that House, passed in the year 1819. The first Resolution would be for applying these five millieins to the Sinki:gund.— He proposed that many portions of the cr t Acts jf_gr resulatiag the Sinking Fund slaauld be Spooled. The Act now in'existence made the-nominal amount of the Sinking Fund about fiftten or sixteen millions. But he thought it was perfectly unnecessary to pre serve this machinery—(Cheers).—He proposed also that the money should be paid to the Commissioners quarterly; that the interest shiaald also be received by the Commissioners, and put out to accumulate at compound interest. In this respect he fully concurred in the opinion of the Honourable Member for Taun ton (Mr. Baring). It would be better, he thought, to let the sum accumulate until it had become sonfe what considerable, rather than remit it in such sums that the remission would be almost imperceptible. —This accumulation, he would suggest, should continue until it should reach an amount equal to one per cent. upon the whole amount of the Debt. The time at which this might be expected to take place was, of course, uncertain; but if the Revenue continued to improve, and the expenditure to dimi nish, there was a fair prospect that the amount de sired would be bought up within a reasonable time. It would occur to the House that it was in the power of Parliament to improve the plan, and avail itself of any future opportunity which might occur for promoting the accumulation. He was not aware that it was necessary for him to go into the subject at any ' greater length. lie conceived that he was entitled on all hands to assurtw that a Sinking Fund was a wise thing, provided we could maintain it; and five millions, lie apprehended, was not an unreasonable sum to commence with. Ile 1.4-a; convinced that the House, by acquiescing in the Resolutions,would con fer a service on the country, and enable it to main tain its high station, in which, though it might have occasionally raised the envy, had always commanded the admiration of surrounding nations—(Hear, hear). The Right Honourable Gentleman then moved, "That it i 3 the opinion of this Committee, that the payment of all sums of money which now tre charged upon and issuable out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great and Ireland, to the Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt. should, upon and after the sth day of April, 185, cease and determine. _ _ "'That it is the ()Onion of this Committee, that all Capital Stock and Annuities, for terms of years (save and escept the Capital Stock ati,ing from donations and bequests, towards re ducirg the National Debt), which, on the sth day of April, 18'23, shall stand in the names of the Commissioners for the Re duction of the National Debt, in the books of the Governor 3ml Company of the Hank of England, or of the South Sea Com pany, or of the Bank of Ireland, either on account of the Sink ing Fund, or for the purchase of Life Annuities; should, from and after the sth day of April, 1823, be cancelled in the books of the said Banks and South Sea Company, respectively ; and the interest or dividends which would have been payable on the said Capital Stock, upon or at any time after the said sth day of April, shall cease to be issued or to be charged upon the said Consolidated Fund. " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that, upon the sth day of April, 1823, or as soon after as the same can be prepared, an accouut shall be laid before Parliament, chewing the total amount of the Unredeemed Funded and Outstanding Unfunded Debt in Exchequer Bills, unprovided for, of the United King dom, on the said sth day' of April; together with the annual Charge attending the same. And there shall front thenceforth he set apart and issued, at the receipt of the Exchequers of Great Britain and Ireland, out of the said Consolidated Fund, to be placed to the account of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, the annual sum of 5,060,0001. to be ap plied by them towards the reduction of the National Debt of the United Kingdom, and which said sum shall he charged upon the said Consolidated Fund, and be issued by equal quarterly payments; the first quarterly payment to be charged upon the said Consolidated Fund on the sth day of April, 1823. " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that it is expedient that so much of the Acts of the 53d and 56th years of his late Majesty, relating to the redemption of the National Debt, as re quire that, whent.vr r an amount of capital funded debt of Great Britain and Ireland respectively, should have been transferred to the said Commi s sioners, as should be equal to the whole ca pital, and should produce an interest or yearly dividend, equal in amount t 3 the whole annual charge, in perpetual annuities of each loan contracted since 1786, that a certihcate and declara tion thereof should be made by the said Commissioners of the amount of the I'ublic Debt, to which such certificate and decla ration should relate, should from time to time be deemed to be wholly satisfied anddischarged, and an equal amount of capital stock standing in the names of the said Commissioners, shoutl he considered to be redeemed, and should, from time to time, be cancelled, be repealed. " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that no capital stock, or annuities fur terms of years, which after the sth day of April, 1823, shall be placed in the names of the said Com missioners, in the books cf the Bank of England, or of the South Sea Company, or cf the Bank of Ireland, shall be cancelled (save and except the Stock placed in their names, for the re demption of the said tax), until the interest of the debt re deemed by the said Commissioner; by the application of the said sum of £5,000,000, and of the irowing interest thereof, shall, together with the said sum of £5,000,000, have accumu lated to a suni, the annual amount whereof shall not be lets than the one-hundredth part of the then existing unredeemed funded debt, and outstanding unfunded debt in Exchequer Bills, unpro vided for, of the United Kingdom taken together ; and that any capital stock, which shall be placed in the names of the said Commissioners on account of the Sinking Fund, or further pur chase of Life Annuities, after the sail Sinking Fund shall amount to the one-hundredth part of the said unredeemed funded debt and unfunded debts, taken together as aforesaid, shall be liable to be cancelled, at such tinier. and in such manner as Par liament shall from tinir to time direct. " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that a new and se parate account shall be raised and kept in the books of the Go. velnor and Company of the Bank of England, of the sums al ready given by way of donation or bequest towards 'educing the National Debt, and of all sums which shall hereafter be given or bequeathed4or the like purpose, and the interest or dividends which shall accrue on all stock arising therefrom, shall be ap plied in the purchase of public annuities composing the National Debt, for the purpose of fulfilling the directions of the person or persons giving or bequeathing the same, and to no other purpose whatever. " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that the annual expense of the establishment in Great Britain for the reduction of the National Debt, shall be charged upon the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. . . . That it is the opinion of this Committee, that the expenses of the establishments necessary for carrying into execution ' An Act of the 48th year of the reign of his late Majesty, for enabling the Commissioners of the National Debt to grantlafe Annuities, and of two Acts made in the 39th and 54th years of the reign of his said Majesty, for Redemption of the Land Tax,' shall be charged upon the said Consolidated Fund. " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that it is expedient that the several Acts for the Reduction of the National Debt should be altered and amended." Mr. LEYCESTER remonstrated against the cal lous feelings which could allow the House to listen patiently to such calculations as those which the Right Hon. Gentlemann, had just submitted to them instead of turning their attention to the means of af fording relief to the distresses of the'country. The condition of the Treasury was a secondary considera tion in the present crisis. The purse of the people was the best Treasury of the State. With respect to the Sinking Fund, even if it were wise in its origin, it had become a folly, and was wholly inapplicable to the existing condition of things. What kind of ' policy was that which pressed still more heavily those who were already sinking under the burdens imposed on them ? What kind Of policy was that, which pretended to payoff the capital of a debt, the mere interest of which it was found a matter of the I gyeatest difficulty to-defray y *ere the landed Geit. tlemen of England ready to acquiesce in their own degradation ? Were they ready to fall down and vvor- ship that divinity, called the Sinking Fund ? He stip. - 1 : posed that the proposition of the Right lion. Gentle. man was occasioned by the present threatening atti tude of France. But he warned the Right Hon, Gentleman, and he warned the House, against allow. ing a temporary motive to betray them into the adoption of a permanent evil. For himself, he should, be at all times disposed to confide the vindication of the honour and dignity of the country, to that scions arm and sinew of war—the Property Tax. Mr. ROBERTSON said, that in 1792 the country had to pay 20 millions more, in consequence operation of the sinking Fund. The House did net do justice to the country by persisting in the delusion; 70 yeari ago, the country had borrowed money at three per cent. and now the country was caned to pay two-thirds more than had been received loin the Exchequer. In the last war, money had been bor rowed upon more disadvantageous terms than had ever been done before. The country was gradually sinking under the terms of such contracts. In 1815, 1001. had been paid, and only 511. 6s. 4d. had been ~ received into the F.xchequer. In the late war with America, the President, to avoid borrowing money, had . issued Exchequer Bills; while in France, which plan had been recommended to us, money had beer! borrowed at from 15 to 20 per cent. He was so anxious to reduce the debt, that in a choice of diffi culties he was favourable to a Sinking Fund, as a low rate of interest would keep up the value of pro. pert) , in land. In consequence of the terms on which the money had been borrowed, the fundhnlder would receive double of what he had advanced. Under such a system, the constitution of the country could not stand. If stock.jobbing was done away, a large mass of capital, that was now locked up, would be spread, and fructify over the face cf the country— ( Hear, hear). —The different Chancellors of the Ex chequer had been no match fur the monied capi. talists of the City. Whatever reforms were reitiired, should be made in time of peace. Mr. HUME said he had heard the statement which had been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer with considerable surprise, because it was in contra diction to documents which had been laid on the Wile of the House. He therefore hoped that the Right Hon. Gentleman would, as early as possible, put the house in possession of a printed statement, which • might be compared with other documents. It was impossible that the House could come to a just con clusion with respect to the operations of the Sinking 'Fund, without referring to all the accounts which had been laid before Parliament; and there were four or five different sets of these accounts, all diffei ingfrom each other, as he should be able to prove, if the Chan cellor of tl,e Exchequer would consent to go into a Committee upon the Resolutions which he (Mr. Hume) had the honour of submitting to the House last year, and which he intended again to propose.— The Hon. Gentleman then prcceeded to argue that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was wrong in the calculation which he had made of the amount of debt redeemed by the operation of the Sinking Fund, from 1816 to the present time. The diminution of the - debt, which the Chancellor of the Exchequer con sidered to be the result of the operation of the Sink ing Fund, was, in fact, occasioned by the falling in of terminable annuities. The Chancellor of the Ex chequer had said, that the charge for the debt was less now than in 1817. He ( 1 . 1 / 4 1r. Hume) had not had an opportunity of seeing the accounts for the present year, but he would spew the House, that up to 1822 the charge, instead of being less, was actually more than in 1817. The amount of our income and ex penditure, from the period of the junction of the two revenues of England and Ireland in 1817 to 1822, including every charge except that of the Sinking Fund, was as follows: Income. Expenditure. Year 1817 - X 57,650,589 - - .€58,544,049 1818 - 59,667,941 - - 57,872,428 1819 - 58,680,252 - - 57,392,54+ 1820 - 59,769,680 - - 57,476,755 1821 - 60,686,076 - - 57,659,896 Total - 296,184,538 - - 288,925,668 From this calculation .it resulted that there was an excess of income over expenditure to the amount of 7,528,8691. Notwithstanding that excess of income, no less than 90,761,9201. had been raised during the five years from 1317 to 1822, to support a Sinking Fund, of which sum 82,053,7581. h a d, it w as s aid ; been appropriated to the reduction of the debt. • Al though the debt had been reduced, by the falling in of terminable annuities, in the proportion of 211,2221 per annum, the amount charged in each year, for the interest and management, was as follows: In 1817 - - - 5e31,266,601 1818 - - - 31,551,751 1819 - 50,792,025 1820 - -31,202,62 t 1821 - - 51,966,075 Shewing an actual increase of 669,4.771. since the year 1817. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to argue that an immense saving would have been effected • if the Government had imposed taxes to supply its - wants, instead of having recourse to the ruinous sys tem of loans. The actual amount of the Revenue of Great Britain, derived from taxes, from the Rth of January, 1793, to the sth of January, 1817, was 1,114,318,5631. and the expenditure for the same period, including the charge on the debt as it stood prior to the sth of January, 1793, and every other expense except the charge on the money borrowed since 1793, was 1,252,867,6031. being an excess of ex , penditure over income to the amount of 138,21,9,094& In order to meet this excess, not less than 618,16301671, were raised by creating 879,289,9431. of nominal co , pital, and increasing the issue of Exchegt the amount of 33,289,8001. at an 30,179,3631. Out of that sum of Commissioners for reducing the National received 188 ; 522,2401. with which Stock,thedividend upon which amount By those operations, the Government an annual charge in perpetuity which would hive been avoided 138,349,0401. had been raised in 24 years, at the rate of six million. Much had been said of the necessit , the Sinking Fund, for the sake of credit. He could not see the force It was, in his opinion, impossible i distinction between public and pri'. both depended upon the same circumsi the ptuteta the Public perpetual to iA ho E lik ton z :s h h t eg i eci tu:ted: ec r itock. Wi late Chanc that a high try. He we cellor of thl the means ' vp the fun( iesults? Tl 1817 to 181 L 7,528,869 Exchequer vf that sure seduction o they parch; respective ) In 1817 In 1818 In 1819 In 1820 In 1821 . Nothing co Sinking Fui actions. A of 7,000,00( the Chancel by means of 80,000,0001 of the Maio of Stock. iII The effect o induce Enk seem ities i w lutions whic of the Excli of the Sinkii step—( Ilea, able Gentler rowing with ad,liti vial e: cancel ling t Right Hong upon a dlt er i that?—that be effectual' lions as a Sii Ifs had cont could exist He now asks come to the lions, by ad of five millie Revenue ani cease to objc had been sal creditor was currency tba! greater part here again n should be Chancellor w quired in jus munity, for other brancl 5.006,0001. t Now, he con greater real the same tin other classes. to all, inasr continue the But it might Yes, he woul in taxes, and from 1,000,C venue would the people w of the Salt T; comeback to be the same considerable back in the if He therefore the continual the delusive tic faith or si were in a cot was due to h rorred, Thi More flourisl resources we effect, no sun 1817 we were Plind, and p kept up in a I The Honour that it was a giving a surf of some mill would be w might exist a to them at original purr The House He hoped, th would not pi Sinking Fun maintained tl wanted no at Fund would tinuance of large portion tressed, and Exchequer Bills td • tilt it border n annual charge of honourable F 618,16 W/. the Ik!sument of National Debt had Mr. A. Bali ich they purchased Policy to leas tuntedt09,168,23% in case of an tent had occasioned • If it were to y of 21,006,130 4 for the redut td if the sum d daction of di i taxes during tht Cirri), and no ilions annually...-. those who we ssity of suppordsi (her manner. maintaining publil surplus applii e of that argutnatf ceiling stock, to draw a lips if is out in buyi rivate.credit.rdlit th an SO, wont 2Jnstuace-4apieli lic money. - .