Star. — London, England, 1822-03-13 00:00:00

quently interrogated es to his motives for acting such a part, his reply was, that had he not done so his life mould have been in danger. Such was the effect of the system now acted upon. Were the duty on foreign spirits reduced from 19s. to 12s. the temptation would be in a great degree removed, and the revenue, far from being injured,would be benefitted by the change. His views on this subject were borne out by a curious document which he held in his hand. This was a return of the quantity of foreign spirits on which duty was paid in 1810. The number of gallons then imported was 2,061,000, and the duty paid, at the rate of 15i. per gallon, amounted to 1,359,000/. The next year the duty was raised to 19s. It did not come into full operation till 1812, when the quantity imported was 199,000 gallons, one-tenth of the former amount ; and the duty, which in 1810 pro. duced 1,539,0001. was reduced to 177,0(X)1. Ile com plained of the amount of the law charges, and of the tlelav in making a return to his motion of February 8. A large book had lately been laid on the table, but this was no answer to his motion, as it contained but the Quarterly Returns. The Solicitor to the Customs seemed unwilling to give an account of his emolu ments. He had heard them variously stated at 40,000/. 30,0001. and 20,0004 per annum. He cared not which sum might be the true one, but if that amount was but 10,0001. he was prepared to contend that this was too much, and to insist that this was no: the way in which that officer should be paid. He then noticed the heavy expenses attending Excise pro secutions, pointed out various reductions which ought to be carried into effect, and concluded by moving Re solutions declar log that the sum of 4,102,1451. 17s. ld. had been applied - to the service of the year ending Januaiy 5,1822, to defray the expenses of managing and collecting 62,882,156/. the gross ordinary Re venue of the - United Kingdom, at a rate of 6/. 10s. per cent. The Resolutions then set forth the smaller rer tentage formerly paid on the collection of the Revenue, and declared it to be desirable, in order to enable Parliament to controul this branch of the ex penditure, to lay before the House an annual estimate of the expense to be incurred in the management and cone:aim' of the. Revenue. Mr. LUSHING FON would not accuse the Hon. Officer of any improper motives, but he thought he lald prove before he sat down, that he had grossly d:ceived himself. In his very first item there was a rniitake of three millions, and in the next there was r error of more than five millions ; and the House -2..0u1d therefore see that it could come to no con c:l:.iun on calculations so erroneous and fallacious.— error into which the Hon. Officer had fallen, on Li* having compared the permanent duties of 12 with temporary and permanent duties of ISM I) his first Item lion. Mika ought to add Which gave a total ut And to his next item, on the Ezebe Should be 24,711,000 Where details wete so erroneous, the House would see how dangerous it would be to adopt the proposi tions founded on them. The Hon. Gentleman con tended that there was a great increase in the rate of per tentage paid on the collection and management of the Revenue. This he denied. Instead of a great excess, there was but a very small one, not amounting to more than the twelfth past of a pound. The rate per cent. on the collection in 1812 was 51. 95. Bd. In 1820 it had increased to 51. 11 s. 4J. This it would be found came exactly to the proposition which he Lad stated. The increase which was remarked would be explained from the circumstances of the two pe riods. In 1812, we were at war, and the Revenue was in some measure protected by that circumstance.— Since the return of peace, a large and expensive esta blishment had been found necessary to save the rove• nue from being injured by smuggling, and he bad only to express his surprise and satisfaction at the measures which had been adopted having proved so effectual to keep up the revenue. This could only be imputed to the prevailing spirit of vigilance and integrity which pervaded all who were employed in the Preventive Service. He begged to assure the Hon. Gentleman that every exertion had been made to produce the papers for which he had moved, at the several departments, and explained the circum stances which had made it impossible to comply with the call as yet, and which would prevent it from being answered for some weeks to come. It was because the papers called for from the Customs were so voluminous, and that reference must be made to every out-port in the kingdom, that they could .not yet be given. The parties engaged at the several offices wanted not the reproach which the Hon. Officer was di,posed to bestow, and he entreated him, when he moved for papers so voluminous, to make allowances for the labour which must be performed before they could be given. The Hon. Officer had understood the fees of the Solicitor to the Excise to amount to 40,0001. per annum, to 30,0001. or to 20,0001. The account he held in his hand shewed their amount in one year to be 9,0001. and this sum was to be divided between two individuals, who had thus incomes of 4,5001. each—(hear, hear). — Now when he considered that it was the duty of the Officer who had been mentioned to watch over a Revenue of 29,000,0001. he could not think the sum he received more than he had a right to expect as a remuneration for the important duties which he had to perform. The expense of the preventive force in cluding everything, was 5'20,000/. but taking Ireland into the calculation it might come up to the sum named by the Hon. Gentleman. The question was not what was the amount, but whether the amount livas necessary ? He would contend, that there was nothing connected with it that could be regarded as at all supeifluous, nothing but what was really ne cessary to protect the trade and the Revenue of the country. The Resolutions were erroneous and full of errors, and where there was a mistake to the amount of eight millions and a half—(V°, no, flan: Mr. flume). lie did not feel shaken by the No, no," of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, ,81 0,025,000 3,262P00 13,285,000 19,476,000 5.23,, h e Goo Which :are a total of There was an omission in the first item of •la the second of £3,262,000 .5,135,000 Making a total of . - • £3,497,000 The Hon. Officer having been thus mistaken, it was impossible lOr the llou,e to adopt his Resolutions. Ile referred to a lare volume on the table, and re walked, that nine such were produced in a year, in ' W ~. . • which the tietteetshie t find tie roost minute accounts of the Intai e and emoluments of the officers employed in de revenue. For the esti mates called for, he could not conceive how estimates of expenses which must depend on the commerce of the country and other matters that were contingent and uncertain could be made up immediately. Many of the accounts which Gentlemen moved for might be round in returns which were annually made. It would be well if Gentlemen, before they moved for so many papers to suit their own views (he did not mean imprOper views), would use a little application to see if they could not find what they wanted in what had already been produced. Were this done, a . great expense would be save d to t h e country , and =lncon venience Would be sustained. Some remarks had been made on a Commissioner lately appointed. He would say the Excise Board had not gained a more valu able addition for many years than it had received in the person of the Honourable Officer who had been alluded to; and he could not but think it a little hard that his former honourable life should be urged as making against his fitness for the situation which he now filled with distinguished ability 4nd great ad vantage to the Public. He concluded by moving the' , previous question. Mr. HUME compared the statements which his gallant Friend had made with the Returns, and con tended that the Hon. O ffi cer had been correct. Mr. LUSHINGTON pointed out wliere the error had occurred. Mr. HUME went on to compare the per centage paid on collections with what his Hon. Friend had stated, still maintaining that he had been correct. • Mr. LUSHINGTON remarked, that there was a ;win belie to vxplain the manner in which the calcu lation had been made on both the permanent and temporary Revenues. • Mi. HUME then went through a series of state men►s, to shew that his gallant Friend had quoted from the Returns correctly. If the Hon. Secretary thought that he (Mr. Hume) was wrong, he would request the Clerk to read them. Mr. LUSHINGTON again mentioned the note which explained what he had before mentioned. __ _ The book was handed to the Clerk. He was called on by Colonel DAvIEs to read the note, but it ap peared the note which had been mentioned was not in that book—(A laugh). Mr. HUME remarked, that they had been referred by the Honourable Secretary to a note, where no note was to be found. Mr. LUSHINGTON then read from another book on the table the note, as to the mode of calculation which had been adopted. Mr. HUME said, his gallant Friend had quoted correctly, and the Hon. Secretary must own that he (Mr. Lushington) had in this instance made a little slip. He did not conceive that the objection made to his Hon. Friend's motion was valid. If it was, it was equally so against all estimates that were laid before the House. The Hon. Member then contended, that estimates of the expenditure for the collection of the Revenue ought to have been at all times submitted to the House in detail. He then contrasted the ex penses of the collection of the Customs in Scotland, in the years 1805 and 1821 ; and made it appear that there was an increase of 400,0001. He also alluded to the increased salaries now allowed in various Offices, over those of 1792. The Commissioners of the Board of Taxes, who at that period were paid at the rate of 6001. and 5001. a year, now received 16001. and 10001. He would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how he meant that the reduction of 10 per cent. should bring these increased allowances down to the standard of 1792? He took the proposition to be a mere mockery. The same rate of advances had taken place in the salaries of the Commissioners and Officers in the Customs, in the Excise, the Tax, Stamp, and other Offices. He thought the countenancing of these things to be downright extravagance, and al though the Hon. Secretary might find fault with the harshness of his language, he could only call it extra vagance, for no other word would express his meaning. He thought the 'expenditure for the Customs was too great, and ought to be reduced. He was sure the country would not be satisfied with what the Chan cellor of the Exchequer had done. He conceived it to be but a paltry scale of reductions, compat ed with what the country demanded. It was stated that the charge of collecting the Revenue was to be 600,0001. But there was a sum of 80,0001. for the Revenue ser vice, under the charge of Victualling, put into the Navy Estimates. He also condemned the appoint ments to the Revenue Service, and complained of the allowances made. At the same time he was ready to admit that the service was arduous and hazardous.— With regard to Superannuations, how could the House consent to admit the prin:iple when they saw the extent to which it had been carried ? He held in his hand a volume, consisting of above thirty pages of superannuations. The Hon. Member then read over some of the superannuations granted to indivi duals who held situations in the Colonies. He alluded to an Officer at St. Lucia, named J. Bridgeman, who had received an allowance of 5001. after six years service at the rate of 20001. a year. He conceived this to be quite an abuse, and he thought the House ought to put down the system. He also adverted to the cases of the Collectors at Barbadoes, Nassau, and Sandy Point, all of whom he considered to have been allowed too much for their services. There was a Mr. Sampson, who, after fifteen years receiving a salary of 5001. retired upon an allowance of 350/. Ile could not see why he was entitled to any such proportion. In short, the system of superannuation was like the system of increased salaries, and ought not . to be sanctioned by the House. In what he had said he had only done !his gallant Friend justice by supporting, as far as he could, the Resolutions which he had submitted to the House: . . • that the von etas* of col*Ong the fiiirenue 1812 w a s 51. 9s. d. mid in 1590, SC 11 tr. 4d. Sir I. COFFIN sa id , •thsit .ip. Of brie ofibi instances of superannuatiOn 'cited the Hon. Ora. tleman, the party was totally Wind. Sir O. LONG contended, that the number of Cons. missioners of Customs could not be reduced without injury to the public service, as there was sufficient employment for all. He admitted that the principle of superannuation had been carried too far in the Customs, and he and his brother Commissioners had proposed various reductions. A very considerable saving had been made in the Preventive Service. At the time first alluded to by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, in 1807, the system of fees was established, and a considerable expense had been incurred by their abolition. Of that the Member for Aberdeen must have been fully aware, and not to have stated it was to.deceive the House. He could not assent to the motion of the Hon. Member, as it would be produc tive of no good. In the course of the last three years there had been a reduction of expense in the CuAoms to the amount of 100,0001. Colonel DAVIES replied. He admitted he ought to have mentioned, that he took the per ccntage upon the ordinary revenue. He had, however, no ob jection to give up the second Ind third Resolutions, because it was the principle that he contended for. The previous question was put on the several Re solutions. The three first were negatived. On the fourth the House divided : For the Resolution Against it - • , ~ '~ tM'. ? Majority MUTINY BILL. . 25 93 - -6$ Lord PALMERSTON moved that the House re solve itself into a Committee on the Mutiny Bill. Mr. BENNET observed, that his Hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume) had given notice of a motion for an instruction to the Committee re specting the power of the King to dismiss Officers. He hoped his Hon. Friend would not press the mo tion at present, as it did not as a general question excite that interest which he thought it deserved. It ' was the complaint, that in the House as well as out, it was tile disposition to treat lightly constitutional questions in comparison of money matters. But in those times, when the Members of that House were rather limited, 152 voted for the motion of 1731, while in the other House no less than 62 Peers voted on the same side. The Gentlemen on his side of the House were on this occasion reduced to a sort of se lect society—(A laugh, and hear). The Gentlemen on the other side might laagh and jeer, but he ex pressed most unfeignedly his surprise and regret, that the distinguished Gentlemen with whom he had usually the honour to act, should have been absent on an occasion so deserving of their interference and aid. Mr. BRIGHT looked on this as a great constitu tional measure; and he wished the Honourable Mem ber for Montrose would persevere in his motion, as he hoped that those who were present would do their duty without noticing the absence of the leaders of the Opposition. Mr. HOBHOUSE joined in the entreaty of the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury, and hoped the Honourable Member for Aberdeen would make the question alluded to the subject of a specific motion, for this reason ; the Mutiny Act, he was ready to contend, did not convey or confirm any such power to the Crown as that to which the motion of the Hon. Member referred, and therefore that motion was not properly connected with the Mutiny Act. Mr. HUME declared that he had no objection to bring forward his promised motion respecting the dismissal of Officers at once, while he was, of course, willing to ray any attention required to the advice or request of his Hon. Friends around him. He begged it to be understood, however, that he had no objec tion whatever to address a thin House, which, in deed, he had often been in the habit of doing, upon questions very materially affecting the interests of the country. He could not help expressing his anxious wish that the motion referred to by his Hon. Fi iends were taken up by some more able hand, whose exer tions he should be most happy to support. The Hon. Member concluded with expressing his intention to waive his promised motion for the present. The House went into a Committee on the Bill. Mr. HUME said, many parts of the 13111 were ob solete, and he should move to have them expunged. Lord PALMERSTON said, the only alteration was to be made in the mode of Settlement for sol diers and their families. Sir ISAAC COFFIN wished a soldier not to be kept in suspense. If be was condemned to death, let him know it at once, that be might make his peace with Gon, and be shot next day. Mr. BRIGHT objected to the right of the Crown to make Articles of War. Lord PALMERSTON thought power was in the Crown to make Articles of War, long before the first Mutiny Act. That only gave die Crown a power of making the Articles of War a part of the law of the land. Mr. BRIGHT wished to limit the prerogative of the Crown in this respect. Mr. HUME, on the 29th Clause, wished to add— " That all punishments should be according to the rules prescribed by this Act." There could be no ob jection to this. Lord PALMERSTON thought this was unneces sary, in an Act which prescribed the Courts and the punishments. The person unjustly punished had his remedy ! Mr. HUME only wished that all punishments should be agreeable to law, and the provisions of this Act. Mr. WETHERELL contended, that the Crown could make new Articles of War independent of this Act, by which Officers might be tried. Whether this should continue or not, was another question. Sir ISAAC COFFIN said, the Hon. Member for; Aberdeen was modest for once. He wished that a sea ' tence should not depend on a Commander-in-Chief. Colonel WOOD thought the Hon. Member for Aberdeen's intention was to carry that by a round about way which he had given notice of, but abandoned. Mr. HUME denied that the king had any prero gative to punish any Officer or man unjustly, and it would be doing so to punish them contrary to the I provisions of this Act. I Mr. COURTENAY.wished the Hon. Member to ' state his real reason for this amendment. They had a right to know what case of punishment the Hon. 1 Member alluded to in this instance. Mr. WILLIAMS felt that the dependence of the ~--~~' 17 Mr. LUSHINGTON said, that it would be an un. worthy act in him to endeavour to mislead the Huse for the sake of any triumph over the calculations of the Hon. Officer. He would therefore explain the contradictions he had given, and the mere particu larly as the Hon. Officer was now backed by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen. He then entered into the calculations of the Hon. Member (Colonel Davies), and observed that he had compared the expenses of collection upon the ordinary Revenue of the Cus toms alone, which would not give the per tentage of 7/. 17s. 7d. If he added the 3,000,0004 for the Ex traordinary he would then find it conic out right.vile had made the same mistakes in the other calculation, and the fact was as he (Mr. Lushington) had stated, h~ IFr4 ' .:;i :7rNA" . , . • +7,17' • , • . • -dieera ne Ai Igoe the 4111 et the Crown, or thotair g4lnister, orj. go stivillne, that bardtelfd hireself coneeive it esti, if no otehroWilpttept Person undertool the task, to infra* for Irate to tiring Ins HUI for the eictuilon of, ail Milker* Offi; nets from teats-in that House i and alto_from the right of voting for arty person bekomlng a candidate for a seat in that Holise.. Colonel WOOD deprecated the Idea of any attempt to deprive Milltirf Officers of their Civil prciileges, as Many Of those Gen tlemen, on both ides of the House; were daily in the habit of etincing as much independence as any Members below tag to it The SOLI C !TOR-GENERA I. urged thZ propriety of with drawing the AmendMent, observing, that the Crown never ex. seeded the sentence of a Court Martial in severity, .although often commuted the sentence of death for transportation; and could the lion. Mover desire to depriv e t h e C rown of that poWer of extending mercy, by chaining its will to the sentence of a Court Mirthd? Colonel DA V I FS observed, that to the case of the Officers of the 86th Regiment who were acquitted, the Crown dismissed them the service and their prosecutors also. • After a few words from Lbill PA Lll num). and Colonel Dams; Mr. 11UAIF exp ressed his wish to withdraw hi's Amendment for the present, pledging himself to bring it forward on anothes occasion, and also to support most cordially the proposition of his Hon. Friend the Member for Weymouth (Mr.. Williams); believing, as he did, that Military Officers were at present not . merely dependent upon, but the actual slaves of the Crown : (hear, hear).—But this was naturally to be expected, from the recent attack made upon the independence of the Army by the dismissal of a celebrated and gallant Officer, who had given no offence but in the assertion of his manly independence. Mr. W. SMITH should be glad if the Hon. Meinber for Aberdeen withdrew his motion. . • Sir M. NIGHTINGALE was anxious that it should cot gri forth to the country that Officers were liable to be influenced in the manner which had been imputed to them: He was not a slave himself, nor were the Officers of the Army haves, Sir I. CO FFI N hoped, that when the Hon. Member for Wep: mouth brought in his 13111, be would include the Navy, that they might all go together !—(A laugh). \ Colonel TRENCI I expressed his indignation at the language which had been used that night on the other side of the House: He threw back the foul insinuations which had been cast un the Officers of the Army to the foul source from which they sprung; It was the first time he had ever heard sUch aspersions cast on the Army in that House, and he was astonished that I lonourable Gentlemen should dare to throw them out. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT neither wished nor feared tei offend any man; but he rose to remark upon the extraordinaty tone adopted by the gallant Officer who had just sat down. If the Honourable Member for Aberdeen had spoken of the Offi cers of the Army as .slaves, he (Sir Francis Burdett) had no hesitation in expressing his conviction of the propriety of that language. Standing up in his place for the Constitution of Eng land, he declared the existence of a standing army to be a gross violation of the principles of that Constitution ; and, that the employment of such a force would be the destruction of the Constitution, had been predicted by men as wise and as able as any who bad addressed the House upon the present occasion.— It was the opinion of a person, who must be admitted to be a man of some genius even by the side of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (the Solicitor-General, he alluded to Montesquieu, in his [took on the Spirit of Laws—it was an opinion held by the sound. st lawyers; and the ablest constitutional writers this coun try had produced. It was to be found almost all the great writers, both ancient and modern, who had treated on the science of Government. To come down to one of the latest of our mo dern writers on the laws of this country, it was the opinion of Mr. Justice Blackstone, a man who would not he suspected of being ever anxious to support liberal opinions, though certainly sonic of his sentiments in favour of liberty would be considered as licentious in these days by many Gentlemen on the other side of the House, and especially by Gentlemen of the Long Robe. Now what did this writer say? Ile complained of the Act, of which the House was now discussing the provisions. Ile never dreamt of the doctrine which had been maintained by the Learned Gentleman opposite ( Mr. Wetherell), the Learned Sale citor-General, and other learned assentors of prerogative, namely, that the controul of a standing army was a part of the King's pre rogatives ; but he declared that the power or the Crown over the standing army was conferred on the Crown by the Mutiny Act. I Everything which had been most deprecated by this learned commentator, which would have made our fort fathers shudder, and at which every friend to English freedom must tremble, had been since adopted. The English soldier was set apart frets% his fellow-countrymen, he was made a sort of artificial Mame luke, he no longer lived under the same laws, he was shut out from the protection of the Constitution. Another writer, who was not over-zealous in maintaining the liberty of the subject— he meant Mr. flume—viewed this subject in a very different light from that in which the Noble Lord opposite (Palmerston) had considered it. The Noble Lord considered a standing army the best defence or the People of England. This was, indeed, making rapid strides towards overturning all the prejudice s of our forefathers. What was Even far. I !times opinion on this subject? Even that writer, With all his monarchical prejudices, was of opinion that a standing arniy would give a final blow to the liberties of the country—that it would he the eittlraiimia, Cr natural and proper death of the liberties of the People of Eng land. And. well might we be said to be approaching rapidly to wards this consummation, when we considered the amount cf our standing army, the vast sums of money which were ex pended to support it, and the systematic means which new s employed to perpetuate it. This system might be seen under the guise of charitable institutions for soldiers' chil.:ren.— Infants were brought up by the beat of the drum ; aod a race of artificial Mamelukes was created in the country. For G:n 'a sake let the children and orphans of soldiers be protected ; 'Jut was it protection to exclude them from all other eniploymee:s or professions, or to bring them up as a fighting class in tle. c );:r - try? The Hon. Baronet proceed to advert to the pow.: es sumed by the Crown to dismiss the Officers ..f the .ttmy a •1:s pleasure, and without assigning the cause of dismissal. It was a power which it was most dangerous to exercise, and which ought not to be suffered to exist in any country. It was said that the King could have no interest in the improper exercise *fetich pow. r ; but it was the principle to which he objected.— 'As to the power-of subverting the decisions of a Court-Martial, or dispensing with a Court-Martial altogether, by the fiat of the Crown, or rather of the Ministers of the Crown, it was a most monstrous, irrational power, and mischievous even to those who exercised it. The Crown might in this way, by listening to the calumnies of some insidious enemy, and affording no opportunity of explanation to the party accused, do injury to its best friends. Such a power existed, he believed, in nu other country of Eu rope, for in every country the soldier had at least the protection of being subjected to a Court-Martial—of being heard betore be was condemned. The Hon. Baronet concluded by thanking his Hon. Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, for having drawn the attention of the Country to this important subject, and by ex pressing a hope that he would not withdraw his .Sinendritent. Lord PA LNIERSTON said, the lion. Baronet was much in the habit of favouring the House with the result of his private studies, and he had done so on the present occasion. If, how ever, he had adverted to a subsequent passage of Mr. Justice Blackstone, he would have found .that that writer admitted a standing army to be at present almost identified with the Con stitution of the country. With regard to the Institution f r Soldiers' Children, to which the Hon. Baronet had adverted, he begged to observe that a great part of those children had been apprenticed to various civil employments. Mr. BENNET said his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) bad not applied the term " slaves" to the Army tauntingly or sneeringly, but lamenting their situation, and expressing at the same time an anxiety to relieve them from the burthen of it. The lion. Member was proceeding to comment on the words which bad fallen front the Hon. Member for Cambridge (('olonel Trench), a stern patriot, who had once sat on his (Mr. Rennet's) side of the Ikuse, when The CHAIRMAN observed, that he had beard nn expressions from the Member for Cambridge, which deserved to be charac terised as disorderly. Mr. BENNET—If I am driven to quote the words used— (Question, question). Mr. CHEM' EY said, he certainly did hear the ll.:ii.Nleistber for Cambridge (Colonel Trench), whom he hail (ewe the Lipid ness of knowing on his ( Mr. Creevey's) side of the House, say that he wondered how lien. Gentlemen "dared" to throw out such aspersions en the army. Mr. BENNET said, the word "stare" was not what he al luded tn. The words he partieulerly meant were, "the foul source"—(Cries of Order ! and Question !) • The CHAIRMAN declared that it was not orderly to go into a discussion of env words which might have been used in the Com mittee in the heat of debate. Mr. BENNET said, that If sech expressions were allowed at all it was right that lion. Gentlemen on bulb sides of the House i I Il i ' ll l ll O A+ , it ! ,