Star. — London, England, 1808-06-16 00:00:00

I'ARLJAMEKI AR r PROCEEDINGS. • MOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 75. ' On the do:burgh Appeal Mr. Clark was again head. Flirther hearing on Friday. '1 he Copper. Bill and the Sugar and Coffee Bill were read a third time and pissed. • 'lle Loan Bill and the Irish Customs and Excise Bill were read ssecood tune, and committed for twitiorrow. The Hare shooting Bill, the Irl4l Malt Duties Bin, the Audi terse Franking Bill, Mid the Dublin Police Bill, were brought up om the Commons by Mr. Wharton and other Members, and tad a firat time. sir. Watoa . roN and other Members also brought tip the Re ports of the Committees respecting Mr. Palmer's Claim i and re specting.the distillation from Sugar, as requested by Messages from the Lords, which were ordered to be printed. The Land Revenue Bill passed through a Committee, and Ras reported, after some observations from the Earl of be r ro r: on the importance of encouraging the growth of timber on the Crown Lands. • DROITS OF ADMIRALTY—MISILEPRESEI I TAT I ON. The Earl of SUFFOLK said a few words respecting a nilsre preeentation in one of the Public Prints, of what he had said re lative to the Droits of Admiralty. He did not say that the Pub li had a right to their, being well aware, that they were the r ght of the Crown ; he merely stated, that it was tit It should be known what their amount Was, and how they had been ap propriated. LOCAL MILITIA. On the Motion of lord WAI.SINGrIANI this Bill was read a second time, and committed for to-morrow. Lord HOLLAND suggested the Improbability of their being enabled to discuss this Bill to-morroW, after the discussion on the motion of his Noble Friend. PANIC OF IRELAND. Lord CRENVILI.E gave notice, That he should present Petition to-ntorrow front certain Catholics, respecting What they conceived to he their eligibility to become Governors or Direc tors of the Bank of Ireland ; and that he should move to refer a question to the Judges, for their opinion, as to the kw upon the .subject. It would depend upon that opinion, whether be should move, in the Committee on the Irish Bank Charter hill, on Wednesday, for a clause, enacting that they should be eligible to become Governors or Directors of the Bank., or for the purposc of rendering the Bill declaratory with respect to she law. _ PADDINOTON CANAL Cip i tL-1111.1w Upon the second reading of tie Padalleas Canal The F:arl of SUFFOLK thought that a greatti• facility ought to be given to the bringing of Coals to London, and that the duty in this Bill was very high. He mold not see any teason for limiting the quantity brouitht by inland navigation. Tne LORD CHANCF.I.I.OR observed, upon the importance of tie Newcastle trade, as a nursery for seamen, wi h a view to Weet which, the limitation was, he believed, introduced into the BBL Earl SPENCER was of opinion, that if there Was no limitation th y Newcastle trade would not be injured, as the sixpence ut bring in.; coals by inland navigation would be as great, or greater, than tat of bringing them from Newcastle. The Bill was read a second time, and committed for to-ttaor r.turEn LUNATIC tILL. - . - In a Committee on this BM, some verbal amendments were bale, on the motion of Earl SPENCER. The Earl of SUFFOLK Made 11 1 001 e observations respecting the Bill not being extended to Scotland, and the want of some provi. • ion for Officers in the army. or soldiers, wto might untOrtunately b:rome Lunatics. F_arl SPENCER thought that no provision of that nature could be introduced into this Bill; but be had great hopes that the Bill, in its operation, would effect neatly all that was wished, with re spect to the propel care and custody of Lunatics, who were disci. lute of other means. • The Bill passed through the Corninlttee.—Report to-morrow. Adjourned hit to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The following Bills were read a third time and pissed :—.The Irish Permit Bill, the Irish Lean Bill, the West India Commis- I sinners Bill, the Barrack Accounts Bill, the American Trade Bill, M'Clintock's Bill, the Smuggling Prevention Bill, the Exchequer Bills Bill, the Redeemed Stock Bill. The following Bills were committed in Committees of the whole I itJusel—The Irish Customs Bill, the Ale Licence Stamp Bill, the Post-horse Farming Bill, the Prize Goods Duties Bill, and the plrits Regulation Bill. In a Committee of the whole House, the House resolved,on the motion of Mr. ROSE, that certain Duties should be granted on printed and painted Silks.—Report to-morrow. On the motion of Mr. ROSE, leave wasgranted to bring in 3 Bill to enable bis Majesty in Council to authorise the remand of certain goods now in the King's Warehouses, to the out-posts for expnrtation. A Person from the British Museum presented at the Bar e Ccpy of certain Regulations relating to that Institution, confor mably to an order of the House. The Sugar Distillery Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday. The Coffee Customs' Duty Bill, and the Coffee Expise Duty Bill, were read a second tune and ordered to be continitted to- morrow. The Cape of Good Hope Trade Bill, the Brazil Postage Bill, and the Prize Captures Bill, were read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-mortow. A Message was received from the Lords, acquainting the House, that their Lordships had agreed to the Malt Duty Collec tion Bill, the Copper Duty Bill, and the Coffee and Sugar Expor tation Bill. Mr. BARNARD - presented a Petition from the King's County, 'n Ireland, praying for pecuniary aid towards completing a Canal, of the Crown being refused, the petition but the was not received. On the motion of Mr. PERCEVAL, printed Copies of the Re port of the Sugar Distillation Committee were ordered to be sent to the Lords. Mr. LONG gave notice, that to-morrow be will move for leave to bring in a BAIto extend the powers of the Commissioners for facilitating ter access to Westminster-Hall. THE CRIMINAL LAW. On the motion of Sir SAMUEL ROMILLT that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House on the Privately Stealing Bill, Mr. BURTON said, that the preamble and the ri acting part of the Bill were at variance. The preamble of the Bill went to condemn the principle of a great part of the existing laws of the kingdom, namely, the propriety of annexing capital punish 'Lents generally to criminal offences—and in his opi i.icn it would be highly dangerous thus to throw out a general reflection against our penal code. In the ; enacting part of the Bill he was more disposed to agree with the Honourable Mover, because there was i a peat inconvenience iu the law holding cut a threat of capital punishment, when it was not intended to carry this threat into execution. But he thought it would be a very perilous experiment to relax much of the severity of criminal punishments. Mr. HERBERT likewise objected to the preamble I , of the Bill. Human laws, he said, were made for.: preventing, not for avenging crimes, and hence it • often happened that punishments seemed to he dis pr iportioned to the crimes. There were two different k lids of criminal legislation ; according to Archdea con Paley, the one was that which assigned capital punishments only to the highest species of crimes; the other, that which had been adopted in this country, as signed capital punishments to a variety of crimes,. but inflicted it upon only a few of each class, byway of example. He had no hesitation in confessing that he agreed in opinion with the Learned Author, to whom h= had alluded, but he would not be so averse to the Bill itself, were it not for the declaration in the pre amble. Ile hoped, however, tiiat at all events it would be postponed till a::u•'ir_r Sir ARTHUR PIGOTT agreed that the criminal law of the land ought not rashly to be altered. But he contended that the law had not answered the great purpose of preventing crimes, and that its failure ought to be ascribed to its severity, which in many instances prevented persons from prosecuting persons guilty of smaller offences. How far it might be pro per to modify the severity of the punishment was another question not now before the House, and which would furnish matter of discussion in the Committee. The SOLICITOR GENERAL thought that there Nvas at least so much good in the Bill as to sanc tion the House going into a Committee upon it, for the purpose of seeing whethet it was possible to find a remedy for an evil of very great magnitude, or not. He did not mean, however, to pledge himself finally to give it his support, because he was not sure whe ther it would be possible for the Committee to remove his objections to it. Mr. C. W. WYNNE confessed, that the House ought not rashly to alter the criminal law of the coun-• try. The law, however, which it -was now proposed to change, had never been executed in the recollection Of any person now living. The consequence of this was, that its effect was lessened, because tke probabi lity of escape was great. He was of opinion, that it might be expedient to leave a discretionary power •to the Judges of transporting for life persoes • guilty of the offences to which the Bill applied—indeed he thought that transportation for life was generally pre- . ferable to transportation for a limited time ; because when the culprits leturned, being wholly without character or protection, they were in most cases cOm pelled to revert to their former habits. • Mr. PONSONBY agreed with those who were of opinion that the House ought to go into a Committee on the Bill, because "there was nothing in the Bill which ought not to be the great object of all criminal law, namely, suiting the punishment to the crime. Mr. LEYCESTER said, that the House would do a great mischief indeed, if they were to prescribe such punishments for offences, that would not, if ins flicted, in every possible instance, be felt as a hardship. . Sir RALPH MILBANK thought that • tlse' less discretion that was left in the admiustration of trimi ,nal justice the beter, and agreed 'with alearseau- ! thor, who had sa i d that it was -better to hav e law without equity than equity without law. He should certainly vote for going into. a Committee on the Bill. Sir SAMUEL R.OII4ILLY was desirous that the preamble of the Bill should stand.; but if there were any obj ections to it, he should not persist in pressing it. With respect to the Bill itself, the simple ques tion was, whether private stealing should remain a capital felony, or be rendered a simple larceny? The law as it at present stood, had, he contended, shocked • the humanity of prosecetors, of juries, and of judges.. The offence which it was the intention of the statuti of Queen Elizabeth to prevent, had become more . frequent than ever, because the punishment for the', loffence being too severe, it very often happened - that no punishment at all was inflicted. He asked then, whether a law which encouraged, instead of prevent ing crones, ought to be suffered to remain upon the Statute Book ? To the authority of Dr. Paley. he opposed that of Mr. Justice Blackstone, who, in his Commentaries, asserts, that the severity of the crimi r ' nal law increases the number of offences. It struck `him as very extraordinary , that in a Country , and in a House so wise and humane as this, hundreds were ready to cry out against every attempt to mitigate the criminal law; but if any measure was introduced. for the purpose of aggravating its severity, no perian was found to object to it. lie stated the difference in the value of money to be another reason for mak ing an alteration in the law. Any other observations which he might have occasion to make, he should re serve for the Committee on the Bill. Having gone into a Committee, The SOLICITOR. GENERAL proposed a clause, declaring that stealing without a person's knowledge, whether privily from the person or . not, as contradistinguished from robbery, should be pu nished by banishment for life, to be reduced at the discretion of the Judge to banishment for any period not less than seven years, leaving it, however, op tional with the Judge, if the case should seem to me rit it, to commute the punishment into imprisonment for any period not exceeding three years. The Learned Gentleman also condemned the preamble of the Bill, by which the law was declared to be uso se vere, while no other ratio of punishment was fixed on. The law which inflicted a capital punishment on persons stealing from a dwelling house, in certain cases ss. and in other cases 40s. depended on the same principle, and yet it was not 'contended that these pu nishments ought to be abrogated. Mr. WINDHAM assentsd to the propriety of the clause, proposed by the Honourable and Learned Mr. HORNER was surprsed to observe a clause . of this nature, which in fact, went to introduce a no velty into the Bill, proposed by the Learned Gentle man who was so great an enemy to every species of novelty, and thought our laws so extremely wise that they could not be improved. He wished to have time to consider the clause. more than the hearing it now read from the table 'afforded. Mr. BU RTON supported the clause. ' Mr. J. A BERCROaIBY was of opinion, that as little as possible should be left to the Judge ' • and that punishments should, as much as possible , be deter mined by the law. He esteemed the transportation to Botany Bay to be a matter of such importance, that it was his intention, and he now gave notice of it, early in the next session of Parliament, to call the attention of the House to the state of Botany Bay— his object being to ameliorate the condition of the persons sent there ; and if that could not be ac complished, that another and better mode of disposing of them might he adopted. Mr. WHARON submitted to the Committee, this being a Bill ti repeal the depriving of the benefit of Clergy persons guilty of the crime of privately stealing from the person, that the clause on which this discussion arose could not in this stage be intro duced into the Bill. - After some farther discussion, it was settled that. the Chairman should report progress, ask leave to sit again, and that it should be an instruction to the Corn- . mittee to make provision - for the clause in question. This was accordingly done, and the House immedi ately again resolved into the Committee.—The clause was added--tie Bill was reported—ordered to be pr nted as amended, and to be taken into further coa sideration this day se'neight. se Irv. Mr. SHERIDAN rose to call the attention of the House to the affairs of Spain. It had been proposed to him to put off the subject, on the ground, that the Gentlemen from that country presently, residing lien s -. were this day gone to partake of the hospitality of his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of 'State for Foreign Affairs. He believed, however, with all the enthusi asm they must naturally feel- on such a subject, they would be equally well'entertained with his Right Hon. Friend's dßiner,_ as they would have been with listen -, ing to what he had to say. He could, therefore, on that ground, feel no hesitation in persevering in the motion of which. he had given notice. HAundaestoods besides, that his Right Hon. Friend had ditatched a General belonging to Ireland, to represent him , at this entertainment. That these Noble Foreigners:would feel themselves particularly happy in the company of that gallant Officer, he could have no doubt, the More especially as it was understood, that his Right Hon. Friend had not sent him to represent himself it 'his 1 hospitable board alone, but that he was alsom be sent to represent this country in fighting the battles of Spain, where he (Mr. Sheridan) waesatisfied his ser- 1 vices would be unfeigned. He begged leave to cor- 1 rect an idea that seemed to have gone abroad, that he meant to make an harangue or exhortation to Minis ters on this subject. Nothing was farther front his intention. He simply meant to call the anent* of Ministers, and of the House, to the subject, riot to lecturethem into it. All that he had to say , he 'had : co mmunicated some days ago to his Right Honour able Friend. The Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Ferceval) did not . give cre dit to this ; and lie had also had the misfortune to fall under the odium of his Honourable Friend near him, as if by his present notice he had meant to save Government from all responsibility on the subject.-1- Thus, on one side, he had been suspected of wishing to injure, on the other to save from any subsequent _stigma, the existing Government.. In neither of these, conjectures, however, was there any truth. Notwith standing the high opinion lie had of the probity, zeal, I ability, and estimable qualities of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Whitbread) and with all his prompti tude for business, he could not say that he was partie cularly distinguished by a promptitude to gp into the opinions of 'others, or to doubt 'his eivn judgment. His Honourable Friend must, therefore, excuse him, if he did not, on the present occasion, yield to hie re commendation. He had no other desire but to bring under discussion a subject to which the attention of the people of England were called at the present important moment. He did not ask Ministers to embark in any foolish or romantic speculation ; but he was satisfied that there never was a time, since the-commencement 1 of the French Revolution—taking it .as teirifed That the flame would spread---there never was, he was sa tisfied, so great an opportunity and occasion for this country to strike a bold Stroke, - which might end 'in the rescue of the world. It might be asked, if he was inclined to trust to the conduct and prudence of Mi nisters, why did he bring the matter before Parlia ment ? He confessed that he was not friendly to Mi- 1 nisters ; but still this Was.not a subject for party. He therefore Wished to express his opinion to Ministers, I and that opinion was, that they should not deal in dribblets ; but if they could not do mush that they should do nothing. The-e never was, he believed, in this country, a Government, except during the admi nistration of his dear friend, now no more (Mr. Fox), 'in which one object only was pursued. When they should have been aiming a blow at the heart of France, there was always something else to distract the attention—when they should have been at the core of the heart, they were always found nieblitig at the rhind. There was hardly a single person, except Isis Right Honourable Friend near him (Mr. Wind ham) and Mr. Burke, who, since the Revolution in France, had formed adequate notions of the neces sary steps to be taken. The various Governments which this country had seen during that period, were always employed in Melling for a sugar island, or some other object of comparatively trifling moment, while the main and principal pursuit was lost sight of and forgotten. Let . Spain see, that we were not in clined to stint the services we had it in our power to render to her—that we were not actuated by the de sire of any petty advantage to ourselves ; but that our exertions were to be solely directed to the attain ment of the grand and general object—the emanci pation of the world. lie again repeated, let not our assistance be given in dribblets. But he also again repeated, let it not be romanticly and foolishly be stowed. Let it be seen, that the enthusiasm of the people had been fairly awakened ; without that, our efforts could avail nothing. But if the flame were once fairly caught, our success was certain. France would then find, that she had hitherto been contending only against principalities, powers, and authorities, but that she had now - to contend against a people ! The Right Honourable Gentleman said lie brought nothing on for discussion ; he only wished to tall the attention of Ministers to a subject in which the feelings of the people of this country were so deeply interested. If they acted properly, they might depend on having his most steady and sincere support. Would any man tell him that there was no use in agitating. a question of this kind ? Would it not be known in Spain, and would it not preserve, and even rouse the spirit of the people of that country to knoW, that the unanimous voice of the Parliament, as well as 4 the people of Great Britain, was raised in their LA*, and their cordial assistance and co-operatien readt to be affor ded them ? Was he then to be told. if an opportunity should arise of affording effectual aid to Spain. that it was not of importance that the subject had been agi tated in that House ? He had entire confidence in his, Right Honourable Friend Opposite (Mr. Canning), that nothing on his part would be'wanting. The crisis was the most important which could well be conceived—the stand made in the Asturias was the most glorious. He hoped that the progress of it would be closely watched, and not a single opportue nity lost of adding vigour and energy to the spirit which seemed to exist there. The symp toms could not be long of shewing themselves-Ltlieir progress must be rapid ; probably the very next dispatch might be sufficient to enable a decisive opinion to be formed. If the flame did not burn like wild fire it was all over! He hoped Ministers would act as circumstances re quired ; and if so they should, as he had already said, receive his support. He concluded by moving, “ That $ huroble address be presented to his Majesty, that be will be graciously pleased to direct that there be laid beforetbis Heuer, copies of Inlets proclamations a have b. e received by his Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs l and whir!, hve been irued since the arrival itf the French army at l,tackid Whether by the Spanish Government, the French Commander e : Chief, or by persons since elaithing to act on behalf of the *nisi; Nation. L-. • Mr. Secretary CANNING replied nearlyas follow: L-Mr. Speaker, I am disposed to give every credit w Lmy Right Honourable Friend fur his motives in ag i . taring this-subject, and I can assure him, that he is very much mistaken if he imagines that it w as j a . tended to check or rebuke him, by any thing that wa, said On a recent evening from this side of the lieu e. 'At that time, although 'I was an possession of my Right Honourable Friend's communication,my ki g h, Honourable Friend near me was not so. Sir, I could very easily shew my !tight Hon. Friend, that it is impossible to produce the papers for wl.-eli he h a , moved ; some, because they have not reached Li; Majesty's Government in an authenticated form ; others, because they were not accurately docribed its the motion ; and all, because if Are were in pos. session, of the information which they contain, -it would be highly improvident in us . at the press..: moment, to communicate that information to t: e world.:—(Hear, hear, hear. J—While I state tlis, h o wever, 'Sir, I hope my Right Honourable Friend .will not misunderstand . me so much as to suppose that I impute to Mtn any blame for this proce e di ni: , or that I, tindery:a ue the pledge which he has given us i'af - his supliort,.in any. plan of active operations which it may be deemed.adeisable to adcitit with re spect to Spain ; the more especially iihen it i 5 con sidered, that in. that 'pledge may be implied the sap. port of those persons with whom my Right Hollow.- able Friend is accustomed to act in 'Parliament, ana of whose body he is so emjnent and distinguished a member. Sir, I should have been far from charging my Right Honourable Friend with _blame, even had he gone so far as to chalk out to his Maiesty's Minis• tees the line of conduct that in his opinion it would be expedient for them to pursue. From this he hat abstained. Indisposed as I should have bc., , n to ctn sure my Right Hon. Friend; had he rticeceed to that extent, I cannot but feel that his speech, mock. rate as it has been, calls for such a general disclosure of the sentiments of his Majesty's Ministers as may be made without hazard, without a dishonourable com promise, and without exciting expectations which may never he realized. It is therefore, Sir, I declare to the House and to the Country, that his Majesty's Ministers see with as deep and lively an interest as my Right Honourable Friend, the noble struggle which a part of the Spanish nation is niiw making to resist the unexampled atrocity of France, and to preserve the independence of their country ; and ;I:at there exists the strongest disposition on the part of the British Government to afford every practicable aid in a contest so magnanimous. - In endeavouring to af ford this aid, Sir, it will never occur to us to consider that a state of war exists -between Spain and Great Britain—(Hear, hear, hear I)—We shall proceed up. On the principle, that any nation of Europe that starts up with a determination to oppose the Power which, whether professing insidious peace or declaring open war, is the common enemy of all nations, whatever may be the existing political relations of hat nation with Great Britain, becomes instantly our essential ally. In that event his Majesty's Ministers will have three objects in. view. • The first, to direct the united efforts of the two countries against the Common foe ; the second, to direct those efforts in a way which Shall be most beneficial' to the new ally j the third, to direct them in a manner conducive to peculiarly British interests. But, Sir, of those objects, the last will be out of the question as compared with the other two. These are the sentiments with which his Ma. Testy's Government are inspired. To the measures which these sentiments may dictate, they confidently look for the support of. Parliament and of the Coun try. It cannot, Sir, be expected that I should say whether we think the crisis arrived, or whether we anticipate its speedy approach, when the sentiments which I have described must be called into action.— It is sufficient that I have stated what we feel, and what we intend.—( Hear, hear, hear !). - --- - For the rea sons, Sir,which I have before mentioned', I am com pelled to dissent from my Right Honourable Friend's motion." . . Mr. PONSONBY perfectly agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman in the objections he had made to the Motion of his Right Hon. Friend, and early fore saw those objections. He thought there wasmuch of the information sought for they could not grant; and of the little they had, perhaps none that it would be prudent to communicate. In such circumstances neither he, nor any man as ignorant upon the subject as he ac knowledged himselt to he, could attempt to advise his Majesty's Ministers what course to pursue, when their course was ultimately to be regulated by that information of which they were exclusively possessed. He therefore could not divine the object of the Mo tion of his Right Hon. Friend. He denied, for him self, that it would operate upon him as a pledge of his future opinions upon the conduct of his Majesty's Ministers in this important crisis ; as, until he had wit nessed it, he could not possibly judge of it. Mr. WHITBREAD said that, as his Right Hon Friend (Mr. Sheridan) had devoted the greater part of the exordium of his speech uponhim, he hoped to be al lowed to say a very few words. In the first place, hit Right Hon. Friend had mistaken him, when he hod represented. him as anxious to load Ministers with all the responsibility of acting in the present instance, and not willing to share in that responsibility. He had not expressed any such sentiment; but thotteh his Right Honourable Friend had done sn much jos. tice to his private probity, he had accused him of per tinacity. He should certainly, in the pre.ent instance, so far adhere to this pertinacity, that as he had uni. formly arraigned the measures of the present Admi nistration since they came into office—as he had mi. forinty distrusted and doubted them, he should noir begin - to give them gratuitously his confidence upon* great and most important crisis. At the same time he was positively ag ainst giving the information require d. H.e.had been n ten reproved, as a man tan prompt i n calling for ' ation,• am.; in the present case, he knew how to draw the line. If was, however, a topic of national feeling, and be was well aware, that when 'his Right Honourable Friend, like another Timm/tense seized the golden lyre, what an enthusiasm he 'veld excite ; but he doubted very much if such intliutiar might not be productive of more ill than gosh if Pre' maturely called forth before the brave Spaniards were furnished with means cf resisting their formidable foe. When he heard so much said in the usual tone of Dia impure, calling him the " merciless dzspot." '4OrytTe a b I 8 C c 4 4 I