Star. — London, England, 1831-03-29 00:00:00

m , ••••lmo.w.••••••7 island 8.000 fnement 1 c .'ti net believe that all these vicero y elude! b. r• Ilea t- o days ;Jo- al for by the bill, he very much doubted d the ruing could c :reed upon ; in short he was tads thd it eas a cAusa n ; anti . etther, 11 at the expense of elections instead of dig ridectil by :he rreposed measure would be in. creased. He objected also to 'he manner in which the Sovereign's name had been mixed un with the measure, it would sully have been quite enough to have said thet the bill was introduced by his Majesty's' Ministers, without going so far as to state in so many words that the King hail :ie ;t Ills sanction. He repeated. if ever there was a sub. trot which th mantled ilelibelate consideration, the present measure was that subject. efeciirg es it did as great a change in the constitution of the- country as dal the revolution of 1668—(Hear, from the opposi. lion.) I. was until , itiactety at the same time, and he was persuaded, that if the vote by ballot had been introduced instead, very few balls would have been put in fur the bill itself. All were surprised at the lIIt mane, men of every political feeling, Whig and Tory, as well u ultra.Rseheal. If noble lords who favoured the measure would but wake the inquiry. they would find that a love of reform no doubt ex isted. but not in the degree that they were willing to believe. (Hear, hear. hear.) The Ministers of the Crown, doubtless, were popular. but. God forbid that they should always be guided in their deliberations by the popular voice. The settlement of the Catholic question had been drawn in as a parallel case: but there was no analogy : that questioa was decided upon the pure and simple grounds of exclusion from tights. It was not so in the present case, the bene. lit conferred ;Top one class being taken from anoilter.—(Hear.) He had already observed, that it was attacking the established Institutions of the country ; a government not exactly republican in its nature, but something, probably, approaching to that of France, might be the re sult. The Noble Lord then read a copious extract from the Examiner newspaper of the Bth of March, to show the sweeping nature of the measure of Reform ; the writer in the paper alluded to, said that Mi. nisters had exceeded his expectations • without Reform convulsion was inevitable; be (the writer) hailed the measure as a step to a greater good; though it did not give the people every thing, it took arms from tlnar enemies. (Ilear.) Ministers might carry the question, aided as Caw were by the powerful voice of the public pees!, but ie (Lord It' harnclifre) would forewarn them of the consequence.; for if the 13111 pea:tad and Parliament were dissolved, tire new Parliament would be neither more nor less than a conventional Parliament. (Hear from the Oaposition.) The noble lord concluded by re-asserting that the pre ,ent measure would lead to a result nearly approacing tog revolution, and exprevitig his attachment to the present monarchical form of Go. vernment. He then moved that there be laid before the house an ac. vaulty of the population of the various counties, towns, burghs, &c. of the United Kinadten, as at 1821. 'rue question havinz been put from the %Voulsack. Viscount SI DM OUT!! and Lord DURHAM presented them. .:fives at the saute time; each noble peer seemed desirous to obtain a !T.:bring. Lord 10ENVON rose to order. _ _ _ Kul GREY was under:.tood to say that he should move for :he of the house, as to which of the noble lola, should have a bearing. iscount SID3IOUTII observed that he. never had felt greater pain than h.: had experienced during the delivery of the greater part of the. noble /ord's (Wharticliffe's) speech. He was apprehensive the house had been irregular in allowing that speech, which embraced a discus. siert on the details of a bill which had not yet passed the other House of Parliament. Lord WIIA R NC LIFFE rose to order. Viscount SID3IOUTH, however, resumed. He conjured their lindsLips not to prolong a discussion which was irregular and in. convenient. Earl GREY would bear testimony to the fairness and candour of his noble friend (Lord Ne - harneliffe) who, when he gave notice of his !mention of moving for the present returns. had intimated be should take that epportunity of discussing the question of Reform ; how far h might be convenient to discuss the details of a bill which might roever come into that house, it was not for him to say ; he trusted, how. aver, that there was nothing on the rules of the house to prevent the discussion from going on. Lord ELDON contended, to stop the debate would not be eontrary to parliamentary usage ; for his own part, he took shame to himself fini not rising sooner, and preventing, if it acre possible, a discussion on a bill not before their lordships' house. He should observe of the measure itself, that he considered it of a more revolutionary tendency than any other he had ever known to be brought before parliament. The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that it was only after a seeech against the measure of reform of two hours' duration, and when a Noble Baron (Durham) one of the framers of the measure, rose to answer that speech, that noble lords discovered the house to be disorderly. Noble lords had been listening for two hours to what ought not to have been heard for two minutes. The house had been wrong for two hours, but then it was in hearing a speech against the measure. (A laugh.) He was of opinion, that debate on the details of the measure of reform ought to be used as sparingly as possible ; but as his noble friend (Lord ‘Vharncliffe) with his usual candour, had given notice of his in tention to discuss the question, he (the Lord Chancellor) saw no other course which could with propriety be pursued, but that of proceeding with the question before the house. Lord DURHAM considered he was entitled to rise and answer the remarks of the noble lord (Whameliffe.) It was not his intention to go through all the poin:s of the noble lord's speech. For his own part he (Lord Durham) was glad of an opportunity to give that noble lord any xplanation of the measure under discussion in his power. There was cee rof their lordships more ready than he was to acquit his noble friend or.all personal motives in bringing forward the present debate. With respect to the remarks made upon the public press by that noble lord, he (Lord Durham) would observe that the public press of the land was o::ly the echo of public opinion. With one or two exceptions of the lowest character that press was eot only in favour of a Reform in Parliament, be: of the very measure proposed by ministers. He disclaimed either in parliament or out of it having made use of the sacred name of the King in any manner to influence any party respecting the measure before the other House of Parliament. Thus much he would say, however, when his Majesty suffered the present Government to be formed, it was with the express condition that the measure of reform was to be brought forward ; but under what circumstances, he would ask, did tee present Administration come into oilier ? The last Ministry fell by tee ticelaration of the people, more especially occasioned by a declare teal of the Noble Duke (Wellington) opposite, which was made in that House ; against all reform. He (Lord Durham) had heard that Neele Duke declare, if he were called upon to form a Govern ment as mar perfection as possible, it would be the then Minis try. It was tic patty opinion, no vote on the civil list whatever, but because the last Ministry lust the confidence of the country, that it had to resign ; it was owing to no party measure, on the side of the opposition. If there had been any limeous opposition on foot, would is not have been manifested on the bringing in of the Catholic Relief Bill ? The conduct of the Opposition on that measure showed that they were most anxious to support the noble duke as far as his tneasutes merited that support. In short, the public mind had been pacified by the resignation of the noble duke and his colleagues ; mallety having been restored, the present ministers could not have done less than to proceed to a measure of reform without evasion ; that the measure proposed had given satisfaction was evident, from the public meetings held every where in its support, not only in England, but also in Scotland. He begged to direct attention to the great and important meeting of the merchants, bankers, and others of the city of London, which was lately held; all these persons declare, that what ever their speculations may have been with respect to reform, they d. rl .red themselves satisfied with the present measure. The noble ben .. then entered into the details of the bill, which removed the elec tive front some counties, and preserved it in others, contending, that if the county of Durham, with which he had to do, had been disfran chisal in part, the sante measure, as a matter of justice, would re. (pea to be extended to the three Ridings of Yorkshire, to Warwick sn or, leeeerershire,ai.d eaters, all of which would be excluded; for his (ten cart he wanted to save for !timeline parliamentary interest, he thimeht it an expensive amusement to have any thing to do with Peril aine. Ley election*. His Majesty's Ministers had been actuated solely by a a toolt for the good of the country, and 'to have a share in the te. flown of rot ingiee forward such a measure of reform. They divided the Lomeli, into two classes—the curable and the incurable; the incu rable they certainly meant to disfranchise ; the curable they intended by their measure to purify. (Hear.) The noble baron then quoted passage from " Locke's Treatise on Government," to the effect that' the things in this world were continually fluctuating ; nothing remained long in the same state ; therefore old forms of representation became unequal and disproportionate to the wants of a people—satis populi supreme rex. From the time of Locke and downwards, most popular writers had taken the same view of the question. (Hear.) He denied that this measure was any alteration of the Constitution.— but if it was, it nas one which would be of the greatest advantage to the country. lie should offer no opposition to the production of the papere, as it was the wish of his Majesty's Governmeet to afford every intone:leen on the subject. They had no desire to injure the inotitutions of the country—they wished, however, to effect such a change in the representation, that noble lords may sit in that house without suspicium to aria to the splendour of the Crown, to unite boils hutiees of Parliament, and to give confidence to the country. Lord WHARNCLIFFE had never said that the lower orders were hostile to a monarchical form of government; but he had said, and he believed that there were many people in this country far, very far, re moved from the lower classes, that wished to bring the Government nearer a republican form. The Duke of RICHMOND rose amid loud cries of question, and from the number of peers leaving the house it was a long time before the noble duke was able to obtain a heating: —He gave his cordial as sets to the measure of Reform.—lt had been alleged against bins, that he opposed tee disfranchisement of the fotty-shilling freeholders in Ire. lased, and it was therefore asked how he could support a measure of dis fraechisement like the present ? The caeca bore no similarity. He should like to know what analogy there was between disfranchising sixty rotten boroughs, and thousauds of those who had committed no crime ? He thought the interests of the rotten boroughs were very well protected in the other house. The system had able advocates in an eteSecretary of State, and an ex-Attorney-General. He of all men was unwilling to subvert the Constitution ; but as willing as any noble lord to cerr.ct the abuses which had crept into it. There was no one in the country bold enough to deny that the borough system was not an abuse ; and as toe the charge of upsetting the Con. stitution, it was one which could never be maintained. The measure war not one of destruction, but of restitution. It had been called re volutionary ; but it never could be the wish of any noble lord to an soy measure whiebbad a tendency to lead to such an efrect. The noble duke ( Wellington) schen be brought forward the Catholic clues. tion said, that when abuses • had aept into the constitution he should have no hesitation frees time to time to make alterations; and the noble lord (Whancliffe) need not be alarmed that this bill would ()venom the constitution. Did the noble lord believe that there was any treason lurking in disguise when it was proposed to give the elective franchise to the West Riding of the county of York ? Let him (the Duke of Richmond) implore their lordships, when that bill should come before them, which was the result of the cool and calm decirion of the Cabinet, not to withhold their concurrence from it . Let him implore them not to refuse their sanction to a measure which would have the effect of uniting and knitting together the hearts of all his Majesty's loyal subjects. Let him entreat them not to reject a measure which was supported and hailed with the greatest satisfaction by all the calm and reasonable people of England. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was not disposed to prolong this discussion, for the pitoper time would arrive for him to deliver his sentiments on the question of the bill, should it unhappily come up from the other house. He should not now venture to trespass un the time of the house, had it not been for the speech of the noble duke who had just sat down. He altogether denied the charge of inconsis tency brought against hint by the noble duke. No once could say of him that he had been a pro. Catholic and now an anti-Catholic, er that he had arrogated to himself the merit of being one of the strongest supporters of the Church and State, so far as a proof of that support was given in forwarding the Eldon testimonials. (Hear, hear, hens.) Who could have supposed that the noble duke would have ever accepted office from those very Whigs, whose measures he had al. ways resisted. The Marquis of CLANRICA RDR congratulated the house on the fulfilment of what he had anticipated some nights ago, namely—that when the question should come before the house it would be supported by a majority of their Lordshirs • and that they would take their proper position in leading the minds of the people. This was all he wished to say. Of the several noble lonia who had addressed their lordships, only owe had spoken decidedly against the bill, and that was the noble lord who had brougbt forward the present motion. ?Many things had been said against Lord John Russell, and the course he had adopted in the other House of Parliament ; but when the bill should come be. fore their Lordships, he hoped to hear only such arguments as would show that the feelings of the house were in perfect con. cert with the loudly expressed feelings of the country. He contended that the bill met with the decided a pprobation of the people from one erd of the country to the other. lie must further say, that when the measure should come regularly under discussion, a more disgraceful weight to the house than the present would never have been witnessed. Their Lordships bad an important duty to perform, which was to give a sound and salutary direction to public opinion. They were all aware that what passed in that house found its way to the public, and it was most essential that wha:evcr did pass, should have a proper effect upon the public mind. For his own part, he was ready to give his cordial support to u measure emanating from the Minister of the Crown, sanctioned by the Sovereign, and hailed by the loud acclatnatitms of the people. Lord PLUNKETT felt reluctant to trespass on their lortlships' indulgence, as the question had alr.ady been so strongly and effee. tively spoken to by several noble lords on that side of the house. He did not now rise for the purpose of adding to the triumph they Ilan ob tained in seeing all arguments against the measure abandoned by its opponents. Neither should he take the liberty of addressing their lordships en the present occasion, if he were nut apprehensive that he should not have an opportunity of d liverieg his opinioae upon the bill when it should come regularly before the house. He assured their lordships that he had not approached the consideration of this queatlon without very great alarm, for he felt that it involved an extraordinery change in the mode of administering the Constitution ; but he was, at the sante time, relieved from that alarm when he found that those who hail represented this as a new and dangerous system, had now abandoned such a line of argument. After seven days' discussion in the other House of Parliament, it was known, it was ad mitted on all hands, that the principle of reform was too powerful to be resisted.—(Hear.) That which was before looked upon as a robber, was now allowed to be a fair creditor coming with a just dementl. end admitted within their doors, the only objection being as to prompt payment, fee many wished to liquidate the debt by instalments. (Hear.) He did not know what scheme of refotni was contemplated by the op ponents of the present measure ; but lie thought that the Noble Lord who had brought forward this question had nut made out such a case as could make those Noble Lords on the.Oppesition side give him their support. Entertaining, as he did, the highest respect for the judgment and sagacity of Mr. Canning, he still thought the opinions of dead men ought not to regulate the conduct of the living in ull matters of this de scription. It was quite obvious that the living ought to decide for themselves. Who could say that if Mr. Canning were now alive, he might not feel it his duty to declare himself an advocate for reform ? The Noble Duke who was at the head of the late Go. vernment, and the colleagues who had acted with hint, resigned their situations, because they felt they could not resist the question of I'ar. liamentary Reform, and those who succeeded them were now called upon to resign, because they had taken up the question of Reform.._ What was to become of the country under such circumstances? How was the Government to be carried on ? If the opponents of the bill were prepared with a safe and secure plan of Reform why not bring it formed and ley it by the side of this measure ? Was it for a moment to be sup posed that a noble earl who had devoted his whole life to the cause of re. form would so far disgrace himselt as to abandon it the moment he got into power. No, both the noble earl and the rest of his Majesty's Ministers were well aware that the Lest mode they could adopt for allaying discontent, was to bring in a full aid sufficient measure of Reform. They would not only cover themselves with disgrace, but leave a legacy of disgrace to all that should come after them if they abandoned the question ; for in that case no confidenca whatever could be reposed in the professions and declarations of public. men. Tile season of excitement had arrived, the stolen was raised, the waves were lashing around, the vessel was heavily laden and ready to founder, the Noble Earl seized the helm in the moment of imminent danger, to steer her to her destined port, and every man was bound to assist him. (Hear, hear.) The charge of revolution, which by a moat ridiculous and offensive abuse of terms was brought against the measure, he now found to he given up; but it was still sail to be a great and extensive change. He admitted it to be so; but could any man pretend to say that, because it was a great and ex tensive change, it ought not, therefore, to take place ? (Hear, hear.) He himself had often witnessed great and extensive changes adopted, when the State of the country required such measures. He found that the people of England had ietetriably proved themselves true to those great principles which they bad learned to appreciate for upwards of a thousand years. The system founded on those principles they regarded as their birth right, as securing ficedom to their persona, and maintaing their property inviolable. The people of England never had the folly to say that they would make their principles bend to their rules ; but, on the contrary, they did ray that they would make their rules end to their principles. Nothing could be more et variance with the principles of the British constitution than a Fort of stickfast resolu Lion to the existing state of things, let the encumbrances of the counter be what they might. What did their Lordships call reformation ? Was it not that, or was it not a great and an extensive change ? ( Hear, hear.) lie spoke not in reference to the alteration that took place with regard to different doctrines of Christianity, but as to the temporal affairs of the church. What did their lordships call the act of Henry VI. when .108. freeholders were fine established ? 11" as not that a great and an extensive change ? What did they say of t'.c Union with Scotland ? Was not each of those measures a great arid an extensive change? Was not the final settlement of the Catholic ques tion a great and extensive change ? It was quite clear that the Coma tution not only recognized hut provided a permanent machinery which should enable the crown to make changes when necessary, and the prin ciple was spoken of by Mr. Locke. Those persona who held a contrary doctrine, explored history, not with the deep research of statesmen, but with the curiosity of antiquarians. But he maintained that a much more important change had taken place since the revolution of MO, than any as yet upon record. A great influence or wealth and commerce had con tinued to increase from that period, and gave rise to a large class of per. suns, whose knowledge and experience qualified them to till all the prin. cipal places in society—persons who were intimately acquainted with every useful branch of art and science. Such were the persons that now came forward and urged the great measure of reform with an irresistible pressure. Their lottiships had a choice of two courses open to them, either to stand the brush of public opinion, or bring these persons within the pale of the constitution, and make them f r i en d s an d a lli es, instead of determined enemies. t was said by many persons that a spread of light and knowledge was dangerous. He was ready to allow that an imperfect spread of light and knowledge might be so, by giving rise to folly and arrogance, but this could never happen if the people were thoroughly and perf e ctly i n f orme d. If they once purified the institutions of the country, they would require no safety lamp. It was said that this Constitution worked well, and needed no change in any of its parts. He fully agreed in the cube gium passed upon it, and believed that no Constitution of any State, ancient or modem, ever worked so well. It was the admiration of the people of every country. All foreigners admired the independence of the judges, and the pure administration of justice, independent of the power and influence of the Crown, but what foreigner admired either Gatton or Old Sarum 1 What foreigner admired the principle by which the representation of the people was bought and sold ? (Hear, hear.) It was an abuse of the Constitution, and it was the object of this bill to root out those abuses, and to restore the Constitution to its ancient splendour. The LORD CHANCRLLOR thought it would be unnecessary to trespass long on the time of the after the able speech of hi s no bl e friend, the Chancellor for Irelan d. H e would not, therefore, enter into the details of the measure. Petitions from all classes were pouring in to both houses of parliament, and those to that house entreated their lordships, that when the measure of reform came before them, that they would speed iet course to the foot of the throne. Some petitions hied certainly been presented against It, and noble lords had entered their protest, in which they said, " Wait till an opportunity comes.' that we may oppose the measure, the advent of 'lda we shall gladly hail--out mouths will then be unlocked, and you shall see with what ardour we shall meet the question.: . Meet us who dare, was the cry. (Hear, hear.) Let an opportunity be given, and MOW protests will be made, and more petitions will be presented. Skirmish ing of this kind went on, and the opponents of the measure said all they wanted was an opportunity ; but when opportunity was afforded them, they, one and all. shrunk from the field. It was once said, we who are not reformers follow a direct course ; but there is no dealing with you who are for the affirmative of the question. What one main. mined another abandoned ; what one clings to another attacks. What this man delights in, and makes the corner-stone of his measure, is by the other run down as fatal to the Constitution, so that there is no likeness or face, the same amongst the various plans, each having the same plan. This was what Mr. Canning used con. !newly to argue, and with his wonted felicity, for be never lost an opportunity of avowing his principles—he never refused his right to r. ply when the reformers had made an unhappy movement at the beginning of the day—he was always found at his post, and he always held the same plan, and was always consistent—he made great play (end nobody had felt it more than he (Lord B.) had with this argu ment, to which he had shortly addressed their attention—but he (Lord B.) was 1101 V agreeing with their lordships, agreeing with almost the whole of his fellow-countrymen, who had adopted, as their chosen child—the child of the it patronage and fostering care and love, this measure in its whole extent—its whole detteilio—its whole arrangement —without being captious about some trifling matters that might be best altered, when more thoroughly discussed ; but he with them maintained the propositien that this was the retain—that there was no longer any .difference about reform—no longer the discrepancy with which we were formerly taunted—no longer a difference of opinion between one man and another—so that one hardly knew whom to contend with, or what men to grapple with. But if all was simple on the one side, how was it with the enemies' plan? What was their argument ? How many of them were found to agree together on the same question of re. form I , How many of them took the same view ? Let us look at that, and it would then he seen how we had changed places, as regarded the argument. He could not conceive for himself any two lines of argu ment more completely adverse one to the other, than that which had been adopted by his Noble Friend who brought forward this motion, and that which had been adopted by others heretofore. (Hear.) Ills Noble Friend admitted that whatever might be his former opinion— whatever might be his wish on the subject if it were left to him to de cide the question for himself, he could no longer deny the necessity of fteform. ( Hear, hear.) He said, that people bad expressed them. selves clearly and loudly, and with unprecedented unanimity on this great occasion—he said that the voice of the people, raised as it had been, in peaceful, though in loud and intelligent accents, was irresistible for reform. Therefore the noble lord said that reform must be granted, end to a certain degree he must admit that reform could only be granted, in order to yield to that irresistible impulse, and that reform, in order to satisfy the people, must be granted, not of a nominal hut of an effectual description. W hat said the noble Duke ? If ever he (Lod Brougham) had heard a declaration notified, as it astounded hint, if ever he sae grieved in his public life at the line taken by a public man, whose great services deserved our homage—whose equally great services at the head of the King's Councils, he had ever been foremost to acknowledge, and should to his latest breath continue to acknowledge—it ever he was mortified and heart. chilled at a departure from what he expected, and hoped would have been the course of conduct which his sagacity and good sense pointed out to him—and his abilities, as a political maa as well as a Cronin would have enabled hint to pursue—it was that fatal declare tette with which he commenced this session ; but after the irrevocable word had flown from him, that he (Lord B.) should have heard him afterwards, three or four days ago, in a ntenly, consistent, and to his :nett!, most., laudable manner ' avow that his opinions remain un changed—whilst others around him were backsliding from the faith— dills, others made the victims of expedience, ()ref temporary or indivi dual plans, and rendered callous by suc h grounds, were fest, one by one, dropping off from his side, and abandoning the cause they had before ticrur,d—that he should have heard hint, in a manly plain style, tell their lordships that his opinion remained unchanged— far front exciting his teounisitment, it but added to his admiration. It was exactly what he heal expected. Ile (Lord 11.) might prove the noble duke's consistency, and he felt that a man might be perfectly con eistcitt and perfectly in the wrong. The noble duke was yoked with mates who did not pull the vessel of opposition along the stream, or of whom one pulled one way and one the other, fen both pulled opposite ways. The noble duke was satisfied with the Government, and that he could not add one star to the galaxy of its perfectitina ; but hie noble friend now leagued with him in hostility to his Majesty's Government, entirely and totally differed from hint—and differed from Government only in degree. Had he not then made out the proposition with which he ventured to set out, that the reformers retaliated the taunt, which In former times used to be levelled at their heads, and that no two of them seemed to agree in any direct proposition. There was nothing wonderful that they who brought forward the measure should have different plans, but that men who had only a negative to support—who had nothing to do but to deny what others asked—to re• but what others propounded—that they should be found so totally at variance one with the other he could not help looking at as a singular fe licity of this great measurmand strongly indicating pressure of argument and pressure of public opinion. He could not help saying a word as to another most valuable concession recorded by his noble friend, viz. as to the universal acceptation of this great measure. All quarters of the country, counties, cities, towns, all tanks and descriptions otpeople, men of every class in politics of every sect in the church, of every shade in re form opinions, appeured with almost marvellous unanimity to have abandoned their differences, and united for this plan. But this was not the most extraordinary chapter of the unanimity ; they who were directly injured by it- they whose franchise was to be shared with others; those whose exclusive monopoly was gone; they who, in fact, and to all intents and purpose's were disfranchised, had een the first to tidal to the general tide of honest patriotic feeling, and yield up their exclusive privileges on the altar of national benefit. It was said let the dates of the petitions be put in : he knew they were of recent date, the people only came forward at intervals. The table of the other House was crowded with petitions in 1791, again in 1819 ; but now, by a great and simultaneous movement, they again flowed in; and woe to that Government which was dead to the signs of the times, and that would exasperate the public by refusing this measure. (Hear.) He had no fear only from a discontented people, and them he did fear when he knew that they were in the right. (Hear.) Mr. Canning was always consistent in his opposition to reform; but if he had lived to the pre sent day, he tee ould have seen the necessity of it. Mr. Pitt had always voted for reform in power or out cf power—lie had always said, without reform, no hottest man could fulfil the duties of a minister of this coun try; and he (Lord Brougham) had the most intimate conviction that such was now more imperiously the fact than at any preceding period of the hietety of the country. He entertained also the utmost certain) that the legislature would do its duty, and that the Bill would pass with triumphant success. The Duke of WELLINGTON.—The noble and learned lord on the woolsack had done him the justice to say that he had not changed his opinion ;he had not. He was still of opinion that not one of the bo roughs mid be disfranchised without an act of delinquency was proved: any more than he could be deprived of his title and seat in that house. Neither did be see how the representation could he improved. He had contended all along, and still did so, that no necessity for this change existed. He objected entirely to the principle of the bill. The noble duke then went into various remarks on the details of the bill. The House of Commons has shown itself, particularly since the peace, to be the most efficient legislative body that ever existed in any country. Their services have been continued up to the time of provoking the die cusrion on this subject. He was quite content with the present mode of election ; and said it was his opinion at the opening of the session it would continue so until the day of his death : (hear, hear.) It was per. featly true, that the late government brought forward the measure of Catholic cmanipation ; in doing so they only did their duty—but they lost many friends. The late election has certainly produced a strong desire for Parliamentary Reform, but he did not believe that that desire was irresistible : (hear.) But it' the measure were fairly discussed on both sides, and refused, the country will calmly submit to it without clamour : (hear, hear, hear.) The country will, as on all former occasions, submit to the wisdom of Parliament (hear, hear, hear.) ern the question of the Civil List it appeared as if all parties com bined against the Government. Parliamentary Reform had no thing to do with his resignation as a minister of the crown. lie iodgned because he had not the confidence of parliament, and in no connexion with reform. Noble lords said he took office on these principles—re trenchment, peace, and parliamentary Worm. With respect to retrench. mem. he believed the noble earl and himself perfectly agreed (hear), for it had turned out that another sixpence could nut be saved. With res pect to peace, he had an equal desire with the noble lord to maintain it. The next question, of parliamentary reform, he differed with him. He had no doubt his Majesty had given his permission to bring it forward, but ministers ought to have introduced a plan of reform that was not likely to upset the institutions of the country. The noble duke then went into the details of the bill, and urged at considerable length his objections to them. Earl GREY said, the noble duke had fairly stated the principles on which the present ministers meant to carry on the Government. They were pledged to reform of Parliament. The noble duke admitted that he could not carry on the Government without it; and he would re. mind the noble duke that on the first day of the session, in the debate that took place on the address, he (Earl Grey) gave his decided opinion that a reform of Parliament was indispensably necessary. The noble duke could not forget it, because it drew from him that astonishing, astounding declaration that produced an effect on the country far be yond any that was ever produced by the declaration of any mi nistry. Parliamentary reform was the first principle of his political life ; he had never abandoned it, and he was now convinced it was indispensa ble,and was prepared to support it by every constitutional means. Minis. ters were also pledged to economy. and in this it was allegk that they had not fulfilled the expectations they had held out. They had to meet ~-s-~-~ NOM increase of expense, which prevented the reductions they h a d made affording as great an extent of relief as they bad hoped to as, complish, even in the first year of their administration. The increase of the army, the expense of the militia and yeomanry, and of the special enouseissions, Lad prevented y considerable a reduction as they had hoped to make. But they had done much they bad matle such an alteration in the pension list as would produce a considerabl e reduction, though not immediately. They bad been accused for not ' cancelling the existing pensions at once. There was not one pen. sion on the list which he had united In recommending, but one to the widow of Mr. Fox. (Hear, hear.) They might have abolished the whole of them, but it would have placed the King under the cruel necessity of depriving persons of charitable allowances bestined them by his father and brother. The abolition of places had been ca. tensivc, and none had been retained for the purpose of patronage. In his own department 120 offices had been abolished, which produced an immediate saving of 20,0001. a year, and would produce a further see. rug of 30,0001. The government came into office pledged to reform and though they were accused of making an improper use of the King's name, the noble duke admitted that it could not have been introduced without the King's consent; and such measures had often been re • commended from the Throne ; which was done in the case of the Ca. Ozone question. Ministers had done no more than state that the luta. sere had his Majesty's approbation. (Hear.) The noble duke had also accused the government of holding out a threat of dissolu. Lion. He held out no threat—he was not authorised to hold out any, and he knew his duty too well to use the King's name without hi.. au thority ; but he would repeat what he had said before, that his loan and soul was in the measure, and he would not shrink from giving any constitutional advice that he should think necessary for its accomploh. ment. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Duke charged the proposed mewl, of Reform as dangerous, because it gave the elective franchise to shop. keepers, to copyholders, and leaseholders, and that in Hampshire it would give an addition to voters of 5,000. He thought it hardly pos.. Bible there would be such an addition ; hut if any improvement of the Bill could be suggested, he would be most ready to concur in it The noble duke said, after such a reform tile Government could not go on for want of influence; but he thought it would have all the influent: it ought to have, and that beneficial measurea would find supple front the people. The noble duke said the reform would be a great practical change in the Government; he readily admitted that it would, and that was the great object of the measure to cause the House of Commons to be the real representatives of the people instead of individuals. Th. noble duke said it would not bee resting place, but those who were cla morous for reform, would still urge further changes. He believed the contt.try would be the case, and that a great portion of those wht, were heretofore clamourous for more extensive Reform would be content with the proposed measure. But suppose the contrary to be the cas:. The noble duke said Reform was irresistible, and no paltry inea,ure would satisfy the country. The noble duke should state what ineloure he sould preproe ; certainly it would fall short of thepresent, and would not then the Reformers be more impatient in their discontent at what was done, and their desire to do more ? (Hear, hear.) He believed in his heart and conscience that the present measure was most likely tt. settle the question ; and that all the evils that were predicted from it would be more likely to arise from rite measure that should be proposed by its opponents. (Hear, hear, hear.) He lead no hesita tion to say, that on first looking at the question, the inclination of his mind was to limit the Reform within narrower bounds ; but considering the subjects with his colleugues:it appeared that less titan the present measure would not satisfy the just expectations of the country. It had already produced the happieet effects; the approbation of the peo. plc I:ad set in too strong a current to give any hope in stemming it, and that was the true reason there was no attempt to produce petitions against it. There certainly never was a measure in favour of which the public voice was more united.—(Hear, hear.)—The Right Hon. Gen. demon, the Noble Duke's colleague, who introduced the Catholic Bill in die other House of parliantem, st ated in proof, that the public voice was in favour of the measure, the opinion of 36 principal counties, end 45 principal cities and towns in England, as declared by the votes of their respresentatives. The state of their votes on that occasion w:re, out of the counties 19 for the measure, 17 against it; the towns 27 for, and 18 against ; from these proportions that right honourable gentle. man drew the conclusion that the people wets in favour of the measure. Whet was the proportion of the same counties and towns for and against this measure There were 27 of the counties for the measure-9 against it—there were 37 of the towns for the measure-8 against it. From it, it was evident how much more strongly the public opinion was expressed in favour of reform than of the Catholic question. The noble duke said, let the measure be rejected, and the people would submit without a murmur. That the people would submit to the plan be hoped and believed ; but he was confident there would be great discontent if rejected; and that, after a time, the measure must be granted, perhaps, like the Catholic question, by the some persons by whom it was previously opposed. That question had been opposed as the destruction of the church, and the separation of the countries, and by no one more than by the Noble Duke, who said the cause of discontent in Ireland was not the refusal to grant the Catholic question; hut the cause was that Ireland was but half con. quered. The consequence of delaying the Catholic question was known to all ; the Noble Duke himself had stated that Government was brought into such a state by the delay that the King could not make a Peer. The retiom question might now he carried with the happiest effect; but if delayed till the people of England demanded it with a voice of thunder, it was impossible to foresee with what consequences it might then be attended. He felt confident this Government could not go on without the measure, and he should use every constitutional means for its accomplishment.—( Hear.) Lord Wil A RNCLI FIE briefly replied, and the motion was agreed to. • The house adjourned at half-past Two o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. REPONTS OP ELECTION COMMITEES. _ Mr. GOULBURN presented the Report of the Forfar election corn. mittee, which stated that the Lord Advocate had not been duly elected; that the hon. Mr. Ogilvie was duly elected, and that the petition was not fritolous or vexatious.—Ordered to lie on the table. LIVERPOOL ELECTION. Mr. BENET presented the report of the Liverpool election com mittee, which declared that Mr. Ewart was not duly eke ed, and that the election was a told one. There was a special report, declaring that gtoss bribery and treating had been practised at such election. He moved that the evidence before such committee be produced —Agreed to and ordered. Mr. BENET afterwartle gave notice that he should to-morrow move that the issuing of a new writ for Liverpool be suspended. Mr. OGILVIE, we understood, the Clerk having amended the re turn, took the oaths and his seat for the Forfar Burghs. Captain DUNCOSIBO presenu.d a petition from East Retford against the ministerial plan of reform. ( Hear.) SCOTCH LIOROCCIIIB. Sir W. RAE presented three petitions from the Fife district of Bur roughs, with a similar prayer. Mae were upwards of 6000 tants in the place, where disfranchisement was proposed to be applied. Colonel DAVIES said he should like to know the number of the elec:ora. Sir GEORGE IVA RRENDER said under 100 he believed. He was against the reform plan : he was for n ) measure of disfranchise- ment; he was not for destroying any vested interests. Mr. KENNEDY said the peculiarity was, that Scoland differed in opinion from the members who had now addressed the house. He would not discuss the question now; but as to precedent, the disfranchisement of boroughs at the time of the union between Scotland and England, afforded precedent ample enough both as regarded Scotland and England. Mr. C. HO WAIW said he objected to the prir.ciple of disfranchis:- mcnt, and observed that Fife was the only one to be disfranchised. Sir C. FORBES regretted the absence of the Lord Advocate (s laugh), not on account of the cause of it, because the committee had done justice ; but that he might have admitted what no doubt he soon would find, the advantage of a rotten borough to fall back upon.— (Hear and a laugh.) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL observed that had there been Re. form no doubt the learned lord would have been in his place; but he trusted he would soon be amongst them. The petitions were from Kileedding, Anstruther Watt, &c. against the reform measure. Sir W. RAE then presented a petition from Glasgow, against the proposed alteration of the cotton duty. YORKSHIRE REFORM PETITION. Lord BIORPETH called the attention of the house to an important petition on the subject of Parliamentary Reform, from the freeholders and inhabitants of the county of York, assembled at a county meeting, convent(' by the High Sherif, in pursuance of a requisition to that pur pose. The petition was signed, on behalf of the meeting, by a person deputed to pr side over it by the sheriff, who wu prevented by illness from attending in person. (Hear.) The Noble Lord, after referring to the numerous and important interests existing in the great county of which he had the honour to be one of the representatives, observed, that no individual connected with any of those great interests had come forward to interrupt the unanimity of the meeting on the subject of the measure of Reform. (Hear, hear.) The petition expressed the opinion of the meeting, that the proposed measure for the amendment of the representation would establish our legislative power on such a basis as would be calculated to secure the cm& dente of the nation, and that a parliament so formed would be able to legislate fearlessly for all the interests of this mighty empire. And here he would have sufficiently discharged his duty, and should not have added another word in presenting the petition, had it not been for an opinion which fell from the hon. and learned member for Weymouth in his speech on the reform bill that day week. The hon. and leaflet: gentleman, with great courtesy and infinite tenderness and consideration towards the members for Yorkshire, was pleased to observe that if the tripartite division of the county were adopted (as proposed by the bill). the members for York would no longer Ippear invested with :he same weight and importance as at present. ( Hear, hear.) Now, professing himself, as he did most sincerely, deep ly grateful to the general body of his constituents, he was content to submit to any personal di minution of weight which the change might occasion,—a course that he would be ashamed not to adopt amidst the examples of noble sactifiees in relation to the question of reform by which he was surrounded. — examples presented by individuals connected with him oy near ties 01 I