Star. — London, England, 1810-05-12 00:00:00

L , t h e y were in at present;-hti huffing done ~ottla:lliemi as s tild not have shrunk from advising them,: / 4 0 r io u7 ht the House did . p ossess the power of coin ; m ating ea a breach of p rivilege. If in making this declaration he should be . come unpopular, he would bear it with all the patience and resignation he was able; f or he would treat the people as he wo u ld treatthe gi ng —he-would serve both, but flatter nei ther. The House of Commties were undoubtedly the so l e judges of . their own privileges, and there was 4 0 Court in the kingdom which could or onght to in terfere ; and when the House had declared its will, a the Court would not interfere. He • . b e Was certa i n ba d g i ve n the subject the most mature considera tw ; and that the House might have the exact grou nds on which he had foinded .his opinion, he ad brought the .books from. tehick.he had taken hi s law, rather than quote from them, and render him- self :hereby liable to a charge of having misrepresen. , red t h e m, The first book he should produce as au thority for the doctrine he held, was Lord Hale's Treatise on the• Original Institution, Power, and Ju risdiction of the House of Commons. He then read a ;a2ssage from k, which went to chew that the privileges . of the House were not to be taken according to the rules of the common law, but according to the cot:me al° and law of -Parliament. Lord Hale shewed, t hroughout the whole of his Treatise, that he had i;r „ o ,,,led himse very mch on the authorit of Lord c o k., whose leg a l kaavle u dge was allowed to stand in t h e bighest rank. It had, however, been said, that Coke and Halo , had too Much reverence for Parlia ment. Modern law writers hads hOviever, not only ag reed to their doctrine, but one of the most cele brated among them had even carried it further. Sir William Blackstone had often been teferrtd to. He world not gam, but read from Illackstpne, who says, Parliament is so high and mighty in itsuature, that what was not law it might make law, and what was, it ceuld make Rot law ;" and afterwards, speaking of its privileges, he says, " they are not to be defined —ft,r, that an attempt to define the privileges of Par liament would be an act subversive of it." He then read a passage from a tract of Sir Robert Atkins, who was aJudge in the Court of Common Pleas, who, in the 69th page, had said, the House had three powers. legislative, judicial, and Consilium Regni, to which were itiached . privileges of which they were the sole judges. There went many writers a Inoldred Tears a l .) who had held the same doctrine.. Lorol Holt, indeed, had differed on this point wich:die other eleven Judges, - and had said, that if this docrine was true, there was no limit, and no one could say where the power would end. He thought . LOrd Holes ar gument was a very weak one—for the question was, ; 'not what is right, or what ought to be, bat what is ? There must be a discretionary power somewhere ;; and where could it be placed more safely than in the, House of Commons ? And while the House of Com mons subsisted as it did, nothing could be more idle and mischievous than to think to mend the House of Commons, by depriving it ef its privileges.. ht an cient time% the greatest men of the State had no idea of preserving the liberties of the people by destroying the privileges of the House of Commons. They knew it was impossible—they knew that the interests of both were identified. At the Revolution, for in: state, there were Lord Somers, a friend to liberty, and a man of great constitutional information ; S!r William Maynard, skilled in legal knowledge, and ce:tainly no enemy to popular freedom ; Sir Joseph ICIC:11, Who united an enlightened mind with an ar dent interest for whatever he conceived 'right—Did those men, in consequence of the Kentish Petition, attempt to diminish or destroy, or curtail the privi leges at that House ? Far from it. Did those zea lous champions for freedom, who were ever ready to lay down their lives for the rights of the people, adopt as their principle the depreciation of the Commons ? Nothing could be farther from their thoughts.— They knew the proper value of an Assembly, to thich the people had delegated their privileges, and knew also that that value was diminished when their authority was called in question. He would not tow lend himself to tear down. that Parliamentary privilege which the wisest and bravest men in the land tad thought was essential to a Constitution the best 'in the world.—(lfeer, hear.y When the Lords and Commons sat together, they possessed those powers ; and when for convenience they, each in a legislative capacity, separated, it was only just that each should • Individually retain what they possessed together. To prove that this was borne out by precedent, he would read to the House an opinion dt awn up for a cause (though not dellierecl, because that cause was cot concluded) by Lord Chief Justice Wilmot, a man of the soundest knowledge and most strict inte grity. Chief Justice . Wilmot held that the power of attachment in Court was coeval with their existence ; 1 and that the power of Parliament was similar. This power of attachment had, - by the nsage of the Court, • become law, and that law was as strict as the letter of Magna Charta. This was the opinion of Judge 'Wilmot. Now with respect to the provision in Magna Charta which protected men from imprisonment without trial by their Peers, all he should say was, that it was impossible for any man, any school-boy, who had taken up a law book, in his own closet, not In see that there were many cases in which a man rust necessarily be imprisoned before trial. They might just as well object to the canonical law, be cause it was not in Magna Charta. The same authority . <tlso went on to say, that he could not find the origin fur this power of attachment by the Courts, but that he found that usage immemorial. He found the usage stand on as strong a ground as the trial by Jury—so that it a pp eare d Parliament had as good a right to support their Privileges as the Judges of the land. It Might be said, e What, allow the Judge to be both Party, and judge, and executioner !" It was so even , in those times, and Parliament allowed it. Ho was "indeed persuaded that the power .of attachment for cont em p t by the Judges could not be relinquished with safety to the people. Chief Justice Wilmot wasa !riend to the establishment and existence of Juries ; but he thought that Trial by Jury. and the authority of the Juuges must be buried in the same grave.— l (fteee,hean) He (Chief ustice Wilmot) asked, what would be the situation of Judges if they had not thi, power of committal ? Were they, when their character or their authority were occulted, to stand at the door of a Orand Jury-room for the finding of Bill, or to consign themselves afterwards into the 1 ids of mer. li d i le to be influenced by any popular try ? Were they, perhaps, to wait for the clearance It their character tor period of six or twelve, or it . . inigtt be eighteen itieftitils I if such *as the wise, in I titer rivilefeel. . . . • . a - , tie hoped no transient Pasiioni Orel the course of prOceectmg, by ati applicats ou what respect wou ld t h e liresicl en t s o v er t h e C ourts o f 1 itionigtary quail-el between the I-louse of Commons Chancellor. In such a case the Speaker would , Justice in the nation be held ? (Rear i hear.) Having 1 and the people, would induce the latter so wildly and 'to write a letter to the Chancellor, who would, thus upon this i m p or t ant p o i nt stated the opinions of utterly to relinquish their liberties.. He would ask: consequence , issue an inhibition to th e ' parties against the oldest Judges, he now ca me t o th a t o f Sir W. what was to be the limit to the privileges of that' proceeding, which inhibition would operate only Black Stone, an authority which seemed to be insisted I House,. if they once became undefined or doubtful ? r ing the sitting of Parliament, after which the on by some of those on the oppo s it e sid e of the ques- Was it to be the King's Bench ? A man might in that might be continued till the next Session, so that, tion. In the case of Oliver, when the privileges of case deny the power cf th e H ouse even to ca ll hi m a course wou ld b y ne means answer t h e i r o bj ect. Parliament were held in di s p ute ,h e or d ere d t h e man before, them at all, and the Bench would , be obliged had likewise been said that they should have . who had been committed back to prison, from whence even of this plea to take notice. Was the limit to be mitted the Solicitor who had served the notice of *he came. Now, after these authorities, he came to public opinion ? That could never be definite; one action. But such a proceeding would have been the-main question, what course wa s t o be adopted I man would say, 66 I will g ive the house so much la- no advantage . If t h e H ouse h a d ta k en t h e on the present occasio n ? H e b egge d l eave to decline titude." Another, a nx i ous for popularity, cries out, portunity of exercising its power, when that giving any advice or jud gment o f hi s own to the 66 No, no, I will n o t consent to so muc h ;" an d t h us 1 an d nugatory paper was served on the Speaker, of popularity the privileges of the House I House ; he only meant to give an humble opinion, at this auction committed the Solicitor, he would probably end so far only to be bound. The House had no ! arid the liberties of the pe ople would fall together.— I employed anoth er S o li c i tor to b r i ng an act i on right to have any advice from him, as any he had . (A r iear,hear,hea r .) The i mmediate consequence would 1 out any notice, and that other Solicitor, if questioned ever given had been constantly disregarded. The r • be a democracy of factions—then a p roscription— ! whether he knew diet the action was brought against Right Honourable Gentleman oppo s i te h a d cont ro-e tl , en an extinction—and, last of all, the fetal, inevi. 1 the Speaker in consequence o f hi s act as S pea k er vetted, and the House re g ul ar ly over - ru l e d him.— the consequence, the despotism of en individual!— !at that House, might decline to answer, as it would His opinion was then that the Hous e ought to go as (Hear, hear, hear.) Let th e countr y b eware o f t hi s; ' b etra y a c li ent ' s secret. Th ey cou ld not, t h ere f c pear as possible to the ancient c ourse o f proceeding. let them remember how near to this catastrophe Eng- have brought the matter to its present stet.: without He would go farther and say, no matter what odium Lind was once—let them remember the time when all proceeding to the length they had done. T it might attach to him, that bad he been on the those honest and,good meti, who sought what they Gentlemen who had accused him of rashness, in Committee, he would have advised the commitment • i imagined a proper limit, and at last the unfortunate vising the commitment of Sir Francis, and not of the Attorney who served the process. He knew ' Monarch who agreed to it was deluded and destroyed seen that he would have resisted the execution of he was making a very unp o p u l ar de c l ara ti on , but he i eiedestroyel hymen whovauntedpatriotism and loved Speaker's warrant, would do well just to reflect stood fearlessly and disinterestedly upon the broad themselves—oho talked liberty and meant despotism, what charges they would have mule upon him • ground of public duty. If in f u t ure times hi s name I who sought Taw, and fo un d a crown --(Hear, hear.) had advised the c o mmitmen t o f the Selicitor, w it was found upon the page of the present day and con- If with this example before thei r eyes—if with the foreseeing that that would not prevent the action , ceived worthy of notice, no person should point to it iimmediate view of every degraded State in modern proceeding. It they had done so, and the Solicitor and say, 't Here is the m an w h o b etra y e d t h e prim Europe existin g i n t h e i r sight—if against a ll expe w - Ild should oul continue the proceedings upon the action after vileges of the Commons H ouse o f E ng l an d, an d con- ence and all rea s on— t h e y deserted the House of the Session till th e nett S ess i on , t h en t h e H e tributed to the ruin of his country."—(He ar , h ear .) ' C ommons , and sought for protection of their privi- He declared then, that he would with out kesitetion loges in th e Crown, they would inevitably fall ; with and appear to have shown its disposition to , violence without being eble to attain its object. have committed the Attorney, and he would do so they would fall unpitied, unregretted, unrelieved i— He could easily conceive that Gentlemen might dif f er even though it might not stop the action. If the (Hear, hear, heir!) . upon questions of this description ; but it was to Chancellor served an injunction on a person in the Mr. ADANI had little to add; after the eloquent lamented that the subject bad nut been discussed Courts of Law to stop an act i on , an d that he thought speech which they had just heard. He ro• - - merely i rather in the Committee, with a ll the n e ut ra li t y -' proper to resist, the Chancellor would of course corn. for the purp ose o f stat i ng t h at , i n hi s op i n i on , t h e I usually prevails in such a case, than in the House 1 mit him, even though it might not put an end to the House ought to come to a full, clear, and distinct' where it was perhaps impossible to avoid some i; action. Having thus stated his opinion on this point, declaration of their privileges, whi:ll would put a" fluence cf party feeling. He l a m en ted that the next question was, what was the c o n d uct to b e p h ys i ca l b ar to any future litigation. Since, however, , Honourable Gentlemen opposite had felt such pursued by the Speaker ? It struck some as n-wel this had nut been done, now that :hey were driven nation from their political adversaries on this occ and extraordinary, that the Speaker of that H"use to an extremity, they must act according to the cite; Lion, as not to lend their assistance in the Com ' should go down into a Court el Law, to vindicate cumstances of the case. He defended their exer- ! tee. In his view of the case, they had acted the Privileges of the House of Commons. No doubt 1 cisc of that power of commi t m ent which they invare in not committer.; the Solicitor, because that ml e it seas a very novel proceeding, bur stall, in his opi- I ably possessed and exerted. , have led to another action, and to further ditficub nion, the Speaker ought to appear in the Court, and The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, : which could mit have been anticipated- He den plead to the action ; and he hoped to be able to notwithstanding any wa r mth with which the Ri g ht ; the H use would act wisely in following the course shew that this was ndt so dangerous a precedent as Hun. Gentleman oppo s it e mi g ht h i v e pressed some • recommended, without adopting the further prnceed• it appeared to some. This vas not inconsistent at charges against himself, v et as the whole t ener of his : ing recemme:tded by his Hon. and Learned Ft " all with the advice which he had given before, with i speech was consisteut wi t h every thing th a t could Ste (Mr. Adam). As to what had fallen from the Ni respect to the commitment of the Attorney. When advanced in support o f t h e p r i v il eges o f t h at H ouse , I Lord opposite ( Lord Milton) respecting the no , he had the honour to hold the seals in Ireland, if, in he should be sorry to say any thing that could divert ;of t h e: procoedings, he cou4l only say, that' a case of action any attorney had served him with a.' the attention of the House from th e impression made I Might not have been proceedings exactly similar . process, hashould instantly have committed the attor- by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He should, there.; be found, yet in principle at lea s t there was nothing 1 trey, but still he should have pleaded to the action. f •re, with the repst perfect calmness, state to the . ' novel in this. That House in various cases directed The Courts below must have jurisdiction to inform House the sentiments he entertained on ehis subject. i prosecutions in vindication of its privileges. Mane themselves why an action was brought. With re- a He had to regret that the Right Hon. Gentleman ! cases of that description were an nexed to the report. spect to the idea of issuing a probibition to the Coins (Air. Ponsouby) had at any time refused to lend hi s In all such prosecutions, that House, without he below, that was an idea which, he had never heard I assistance in directing the House to the right course ing its dignity, suffered its p r ivil e ges to go to the suggested before, nor never read of in the course of to be pursued. The Right Hon. Gentleirem had, I cieion of a Jury. In the case of writs of Habeas ' his studies. He could not recommend the adoption however. in this instance ably established the grounds, I pus, sited out for persons committed by the authority of that course, nor could he support the idea of the I and clearly supported by reasoning, the propriety of lof that House, its privileges came within the cogni• Speaker's writing to the Court. If he was acting as l the course recommended by the Committee. bat i sauce of the Courts below. The Judge could a Judge, and that any such letter was brought to when the Right Hon. Gentleman had asked him f know till the return of the writ by what authority him, he should consider it his duty wally to disre- across the table, whether he was prepared to support the commitment took piece. The return was in - gard it, and inform himself by plea of the cause of the recommendation of the Committee, he would 1 case the proceeding that brought the matter of psi the action. Tewould be the height of injestice to own that he felt apprehensive lest the intention of the I lege within the knowledge of the Court below, which blame the Court for interfering with the privileges of i Right Hon. Gentleman was to its him to a lin e f r om ! uniformly remanded the party, as the plea walla- i the House; before it had any means of being inform- I which he could not retreat, with a view of afterwards I the present case be the proceeding to bring the r _ what those privileges were. He thought then ; endeay..nring to prove it wroug. The Right Hon. i vilege of that House within the cognizance of the that the Speaker ought to appear in Court, and in- Gentlemen had stated that he would be the last to Judge. Though the House might not in either form the Court that he was Speaker of the House of ', bring the House into the unfortunate situation in case cpmmic the Solicitor, it had the power, and a Commons, and had been Speaker when the warrant 1 which it was placed, but that, if he had br o u g h t i t perfect discretion whether it should be used. He wee was issued ; that he had issued that warrant hr the into that situation, he should have pointed out some rejoiced to find how little likelihood there was that authority, and under the order of the House of Com- j way to get out of it. But what was this unfortunate 1 the question b e f ore t'se House would cause any dif. mons, and that he warned the Court that it had no situation of the House ? It was a situ a tion in whi c h fcreace of opinion. But he could not agree with his right to relieve the plaintiff, or to examine into the ! that Reuse might be placed by every commitment 1 Honourable and Learned Friend, that the Solicitor plea. If after this notice the Court thought proper Ito the custody of the Serjeant at Arms, for any should have been committed before the House came to examine into the plea, he had no hesitation in say- i breach of its privileges, as well as by the rash act, as Ito the vote of that night. He was more desirous to ing the Court would exceed its jurisdiction—(Hear,! it was called, that led to the ' present ing— have the vote fi r st pa sse d, before any further proceed. irate) He did not think, however, that there was one ; which act tie had ' recommended, anrb e i: ed Housee knee should take place ; and lie would ask the Right Judge in the land who would, lie would not shy yen. t adopted. Was there any Gentleman who had mark- I Honourable Gentleman opposite ( Mr. Pontonhy), titre, but even entertain a Wisleto commit se gross a I ed the conduct of Sir Frapcis Burdett, that could whether, when the notice served on the Speaker had violation of his duty—(horn', hear.) He had now doubt, that, if he had been brought in custody to been first communicated to the House, he was of opi given very fully his opinion on this important sub- I be the bar ,to reprimanded, he would not have nion that the Solicitor should }nee been committed ? jest—he had given it, he hoped, in a manner to pre., brought his action ? or if reprimanded, that he He would ask whether it had not been better, and elude any accusation of concealment from fear of une i would not have taken means of insulting the more consistent with their dignity, to wait till the ' popularity—(Hear.) A n d h e now th oug h t i t hi s . House, so a s to comp e l t h em t o b r i ng on thin es discussions that had taken place, and the duty to say, that if the people of this country were trial, as it was represented, between the House of more mature consideration of the question had en misled into a desire to undermine or diminish the j Commons and the people ? When this was the case, lightened their minds respecting it, than by the im privileges of the House of Commons, they would lie 1 what justice was there in the taunt that he had brought i mediate commitment to take a step, which, if it should under a most fatal delusion—( Hear, hear.) The in- i than I mouse into th;, state of unexampled calamity and ;be necessary to resort in the end to the present course, terests of the people were inseparably interwovt.n i distress ? If there were really any imbecility in the I they would be obliged to retread ? The coarse , with . the privileges of that House ; and they ought i powers of that House, he did not feel any regret that ' therefore, which had been taken, was the most wise not to adopt any hasty animosity against it, because ;it should. be discovered. If they should not have any , and safe for the assertion of their dignity, and the its decision on particular subjects might not accord legit} means of asserting their privileges, they certainly ; preservation of their rights and privileges. It was with 'With their sentiments. They ought coolly to consi- had constitutional means of protecting them. If I satisfaction he found they were agreed upon that der that they did not merely hurt this House of Com- I qtly such imbecility should exist, it was the more de- j point upon which he apprehended the greatest diffe mons by abridging its privileges, but that they rat& 1 sirable that it should be discovered at a time when . rence ; for It+ had hest apprehensive that Gtntlemeti -Lay hurt themselves by proportionably depressing i the session was -not too far advanced to allow them : would have been disposed to carry the exercise of the every future House of Commons—(Hear, hear.)- —I to provide means to protect and confirm their privi- ! power of the House to a greater extent than he Their ancestors, in times the most perilous and con-1 leges. But he was confident that they had exercised I thought the circumstances of the case required, add flirts the most trying, hadinvariably maintained those I no authority which they did not possess—that they I which they might afterwards see reason to retract. privileges now sought to be disputed. They had done I had not exceeded their just constitutional powers. I Mr. PONSONBY explained. He should always so in the veryheight of their spirit, and asserted them I He was confident that there was no authority in the . think that the Right Honourable Gentleman, by m at hazard now, (thank Gaol) not necessary. On , country, no Judge of the land, that would hesitate, on : ducing the House to exercise their privilege of corn . • those privileges depended not any particular indi. i t finding that it was a question of privilege of Parlia.. mitment, in a case which did not call for it, had put vidual authority, but the liberties of the people them- ! meat, to declare that such a question it was not ; the House in an unfortunate situation. He could ' selves. It was absurd and monstrous to talk of ' competent to any inferior Court to determine.— i never think any situation so unfortunate as when_ a making the King the repository of the rights of the , Whether the power were exercised on right grounds' considerable portion of the people disapprved of their people. He was as firm a friend as any man to the 'or not, still no Judge would attempt to inquire , proceedings—( Lend and repeated cries of No, no!) reigning Sovereign; but still he would say there ne- into the merits of its exercise. He' was under no 1 Mr. W. WYNNE declared, that however unport ver reigned a Monarch who loved either the House apprehension that the dignity of the House would' lay the sentimem might be, he should be ashamed of or the People. Those who expected that the King I be compromised by pursuing the coarse recommend. , himself if he hesitated to say, that, in his op nion, would naturally protect the liberties of the people ! ed. The Right Hon. Gentleman had stated, that if : the House, by committing the Solicitor, would have might as well expect a prodigy. It was a physical t the individual should persevere in the action, that the shown their determination to defend their privileges impossibility—no man could love the power by which House would be obliged to follow the course pointed by punishing those who infringed them. he was contronled. The House of Brunswick would, . out, by giving leave to the Speaker and Serjeant ' Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY, although he had no he hoped, to the end; defend the principles by which, at Arms to appear and plead. On this head, he could • doubt that the Speaker and the Serjeant ought to be they were placed on the throne ; but then it was idle see no ground for the delicacy which some Gentle- permitted to appear and plead, yet was unwilling that to expect that any reigning family would naturally men felt at betraying any timidity respecting the thequestionshoulel go to a decisionwithoutstatingvery be the guardians of the freedom of the people. Ntk hat soundness of their privileges. If way thing should sherd his opinion on some of the doctrines that had was, during the whole history of this country, the na- ' occur to call for their interference, they would still been t hat evening advanced. Heshould not occupy ture of the political conflicts by which England has • have the constitutional power of vindicating their much of the attention of the House, as he he' no been agitated ? Did it not exhibit one continued , privileges. He did not thini the precedent of the pleasure in stating to any audtence opinions different struggle between the King and the people ? For what . commitment cf Sir Francis Pemberton and Sir Tho- from theirs. Besides. he did not think that the d ry reason was the House of Stuart dethroned ? Where inns Jones of any great weight. It was necessary for of a Member of the House permitted him to plea ti n WAS the man who could promise that we might not them, before they took any step, to know, not only the House arguments against the Hous e whit h i s t hereafter have some degenerate descendant even of the their ow n privileges, hut what was doing in the t'ie present case mi ' reeeeted 'n an' .hsr place. House of 'Brunswick, who might prove equally am- Courts below respecting them. The Judges must be Hl should therefere silently acienitece i n e a e ponds bitions ? 'lt was one of the grossest errors of modern judicially made acquainted with the circumstance of whic'i he believed that be would an, sr H • c.o. delusion to think of making the people, under any the Speaker having acted under the authority of an f eeed that he did not entais re he 01, circumstances, look up to the Throne for the safety Of order Of that figuack Much had been said of enc. privileges of the House sot Commons 111(41 tit to dia dhow aid, is; against ly dur. he suit it such ct. It corn- of the k_en o: he op. it idle. r, and r have with. itioned ' gainst peaker . would reforef rithout in pi- t fore. of the ect on , if le ithout from • a after House to act tbject. differ to be sussed y that Louse, me in- at tbe alie. occl. omit• right might cull ies might course mceed- Fi ;end Noble ovr•lty ' there filar to aching rested Many twin. lower. he de. s Cos- hority cogni. Id not :hority in tliat p . . whies nalin to pri. of the either and a le was a that ' ay dif. ith his Visitor ' CM. MU to oceed. Right er had A • d il,ofb H