Star. — London, England, 1810-05-22 00:00:00

• 7..5. ALt A' AgEIVT RT PRaCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, StA'Y 21. •TI2B CATHOLICS. THE NAVY. I . Ceveral pills (mostly inclokuv or private) were brought up front gt! Commons, anti read the first tine. •• Lord lt, r Dentate preoesieChis Bill relating to Debtor and Cireditor. which was read* lkit time. .ord Ho/AA:en peeistothitVawhe should move for the second sending of the eriorately ilili Aseklitrkett Friday. Lord Loy oainata caliedibiattektion of their Lordships to el lull which lay theleTable ,Scotch •Yudicature •13411), acid i I.ollitod at an guise °f l its previsions, in the instance of a Mr., sicoit, who unduly enjoyed the bounty of it, While he retained and exerci s sed the bike of a Captain in the Mani Militia. He then ** moved for an anoint of the date of Mr. Scott's commission, and other doeuments.ooncerning it, which, after a. few words from Lord M5.t.‘11.1.; and LonLiaves-eool., was agreed to. DUKE Ok fint - Nawlck'S.ntigay. Lord ViraLSIPIGJIAM moved the Order of the bayou the Duke of Brunswick's Pension; on which Lori HOLLAWD and• Lord GILT contended for the propriety of•appiyiagah,e pensigin either from the Civil List, or from the Droll' of Admiralty ; while Th, Earl of Lucas root. maintained that the Civil List, re- • duc,t4 a, it ,was, trom the value of its first establishment, by the . 41cress'i• in the value of money, was not the proper source; and itiat . the'isnount •f• the•Droits of Admiralty had been much mis taken and euggerated. After.a.few wriirds.frokt Lord Rossmve, the Bill was read a and ordered to be commitek to-morrow, for which day their Lardihips were star noned to . attend, on the motion of Lord HOLLAND: Lord Gos?, in the absence of Lord Llonnoughmote, mooed 1,, ,iiscisarge the order for taking the Petitions of the Irk') Catho- A,:s'lnto consideration to-morrOW,,and postponed the motion on subject till Friday, line .1, on account of the'indisposition of a Noble -Friend of his. Lord G Rzy also deferred his own motion for an Address to his _gajesty on the State. of the Nation till the Friday following. Lord 'Viscount MELVILLE brought forward his promieedmotton respecting the propriety of employ ing Ships of war as transports, for the conveyance of troops on expeditions. In order to put the House in possession of the object he had in view, he should be gin by reading a resolution which it was his intention to conclude with moving. The substance of the re sedittion was, that it appears to that Home to be ex eedient to have in readiness a certain number of armed ships to be employed aseransports, which from the nature of their construction and equipment, would prove much more effectual and useful than the hired transports now usually taken up for that see. vice. The. Noble Viscount then proceeded to take a view ()fele resent state of the British navy and of the leestile payies with which it might have to con tend, The ,British navy now consisted of IAS ships .uf .the line. The different navies that could be brought oppose it from every other part of d:e. world did net amount to 80. All the British ships were fully manned and completely equipped. This eels fir from being the case with the hostile navies. On t his head, therefore, we had no denger to apprehend; as the contrary, so decided was the superiority of our naval force, that it might be reduced v.ithout incur. ,toy risk ; at least, it might supply a number of ships of the description he alluded to for acting as transpuits. He would prefer St's for that service ; and he would so continue them, that, instead of the usual complement, they would not require more than a third, or 16+ men to work them. They should have at the utmost twenty guns, and at the least, twelve. I litre a)reAdy was a great saving. But when the promptitude «ith which they could convey troops, and the better accommodation which they would 4t ford in every reipect, were considered, how far pre ferable would they lee found. to the hired transports stets' esoseloyed, and which required so much time and er much expence to procure. The Noble Viscount next-.took- a review of the different expeditious on which such troops and-ships had been . successfully employed, and contended, that if in the months of Ja mousy and February, 1809, such means had been pre ered for carrying ten thousand men to Flushing, the , vhole of the French fleet then in that harbour might have been captured or destroyed, and almost the whole of the disasters and disgrace of the late unfor tunate expedition. to the Scheldt would have been avilided. The Noble Viscount then read a number vif letters from some of the most skilful officers of the navy, all reconntending the adoption of this measure --a measure on the nature and advantages of which he had bestowed. every research in his power, and which he could not too earnestly recommend to the attention of their Lordships. Lord MULGRAVE was willing to admit many et the positions laid down by the Noble Viscount ; nut it wax necessary to compare the advantages with the disadvantages of the plan which he submitted to that Lordships—Certain he was that in practice the dieicivantages would be found to prevail. When we zonsidered the amount of our naval force ; and the employment for which it was intended, it was not the ei.emy only we should have in view, formidable as was his power, and great as were the abilities of the man who now wielded all the resources of the continent— : iir navy was also necessary for the protection of our ietniense commerce, which every day increased, and :.hich would consequently every day require greater 111CMIS of protection. Any diminution of our naval tete would therefore, under all the circumstances of the present moment, be little short of madness. The l'Zoble Lord then appealed to a number of naval au thorities in opposition to those cited by the Noble Viscount ; and elso entered into a vat iety of calculat ions to prove that even in point of economy nothing mould he gained by the. proposed plan. Viewing it ill that light he should oppose the Fable Viscount's reselitiorie but out of respect for that Noble Lord lie s'ictuld not give it a direct negative, but move the ~reevious question. The Earl of GALLOWAY warmly defended.the plan, and pet a number of cases, in which he' con- Acacia the greatest advantage would he derived from it. No doubt the necessity of maintaining the naval discipline might throw some impediments in the way of it; but these, he thought a might be removed, by She introduction of a bill . into Parliament to that effect. , Earl STANHOPE also defended the . plan. In the present mode of building ships of war great er ecirs-orere conspicuous. So faulty-Weed was the pre sent mode of mistrusting, that it was necessary to eebitild the whole of the-navy every 12 years. Armed *hips to be used as transports should have a particu lar form, and should not draw more than 7 feet of wAter. ' the Earl of WA RWICIC said a few words against t'ee resolut;on. i.ord MELVILLE, in reply, insisted on obvious aZeantages that would result from the plan, and tees. ted it would net* rejectcd it came-from. , • The 4,0 f Livmtgo* no other gbjectipa tat* phin, produce insthe discipline 4 - Insurmountahle objection. discipline was the said and NI ivy depended our prospern istence. • The guano's was then put on - Lord Melville's:m -.60n. alidibt*eviousquestion was. carried -without a iiivisi9p.rs444ourned at Teen o'clock. .._ IHOUSE OF•COMMON6. , NfreWHARTON moved for various public accounts. • Mr.O:HARA obtained kayo to bring in 'MU for respiring Stilt Fines in Ireland. • The Surveyor General's Bill was•read a third time and passed. •trir. I.USHINGTON brought up several Resolutions • from .the Committee of Supply, ots which Bills were. ordered to •be .brought in. Sir W. CURTIS brought up the Report of the Committee on the Stock Market Bill,, which was ordered to Ix taken into con sideration ott•Wednrolay. The Bill to Disaforest Biro Forest was read a third time, and The-Foreign Silk 818 was read a seoOd time ; ordered to be committed to-morrow. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, .113,727 was voted for the purchase of the Collection of Mine rals belonging to the hte Hun. Charles Greville. The Exchequer Bills Bill vfas read the lint time ; second read ing to-morrow. The Bill for appropriating the Surplus of the Stamp Duties in the year 1808 to the payment of the 'Annoy as read the first time; "ordered.to be read a .ccond time to-morrow. PA It LI A MEW.% ItY ER FORM. General 'TAR EXTON presented a petition from certain per sous residing in Liverpool and its neighbourhood, praying a Re form .in Parliament. The petition having been read, the Hon. Member moved that it lie on the table. General GASCOIGNE concurred in the motion, but felt it his duty to .state that the petition did not speak the sentlmentaof one tenth of the inhabitant+ of Liverpool. Motion agreed to. Mr. RUDA R'l S presented a similar petition from Worcester, which was ordered to lie on the table. Mr. WAKDI.E presented a petition from certain Freemen of Canterbury, assembled at the door pf the Puililltall, on the same subject. The following sentence in it excited considerable mirth: " The petitioners cannot reconcile it to any principle of justice, that Sir Francis Burdett should be now a prisoner in the Tower, while Mr. Perceval is at large. at A hlember of that House— The petition was ordered I• lie on the table. .orcl.COCllltAliE made some observations on the Bore Fo rest Bill, and moved for a Committee to watch over the rights of the Crown with respect to Forests. Mr. Res►: and Mr. S. IllowiNx chewed, that sn far from the interests of the Crown being touched by the 13111, it would be a considerable gainer, as it would receive five hundred acres as a compensation for the ncmival privilege of grazing deer over the whole of the forest. The motion was rejected, as was another of the Noble Lord's, on the same subject. Tbe notice of motion respecting Captain Foskett was postpon. ed to Friday te'nnight. 11w adjourned &hate on the Catholic Petitions was postponed from Thursday to Friday. Mr. TIERNEY moved for an Ad.lress to his Majesty praying that he would order au account of the various sums under the head of Droiteinf the Admiralty to be laid before the House.— Agreed to. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. Mr. BRAND rose to submit to the consideration of the Hduse the motion respecting Parliamentary Reform, of which he had given notice previous to the - recess. • When be considered the.vast. importance of this great question—when he looked to the internal situation of the, country at the present moment—when he perceived that mach of its difficulty, and all its I danger, arose from withholding a moderate Reform in parliament from the wishes of the nation ; but , above all, when lie contemplated the essential im portance of this question to the liberties and rights of the Empire, he felt the weight of the task he had un dertaken ; all the difficulties that belonged.to it, press ed upon his imagination ; and he became sensible of his inability to do justice to the question. Before, however, he should enter upon the subject of his mo tion, he must beg leave to say a few words, which would relate personally to himself, in explanation of his motives in bringing it forward. On the morning previous to the adjournment of the question respect ing Sir F. Burdett (pending the important dLcussion upon the Warcheren expedition), the decision of which question had excited so strongly the feelings of the public, and attracted so much suspicion upon that House, and so niuch and such just censure upon his Majesty's Ministers, he had determined to bring for ward his motion. An I lonourable Friend of his had, however, at that time dissuaded him from putting his intention into execution; and the arguments of his Honourable Friend on the occasion appeared to him so sound and cogent, that he was induced to defer for a short time the motion which he had determined :o bring forward, though his purpose remained fixed and unshaken. The reason which influenced hint to mike this statement was, that he might refute the caluninies which he had already heard, and which he had no doubt he should hereafter hear urged against him, as to the time and circumstances under which he brought this subject before the House. It had been insinuat ed against him as matter of charge, that be should have thought of making any motion respecting Par liamentary Reform in the absence of Sir Francis Bur dett, who was considered the principal supporter of such a measure. But the statement of his fixed de ' termination upon the subject, previous to the events wleich led to the absence of that Honourable Baronet, was the best answer to stick a charge. Besides, it was well known to most of the very respectable con stituents whom he represented, what were his opinions ' as to the necessity and expediency of Parliamentary Reform ; they expected I rom him that he should bring the subject into discussion ; and in making his motion on this night, be should only be diicharging a duty which was expected from him, and he tees bound to perform. The events which had taken place, *and the agitation of the public milfd on this particular subject, alike rendered this duty imperious. A mo derate Reform of Parliament was absolutely essential to the welfare of the =moronity. It was a measure which the violent demAnded, and the prudent deem ed it w ise. to encourage. (gear, hear.) The critical jituation of the country called for it as the be s t na ea ns to dissipate/the alarm which was so general, and to allay the iliscontents of the anion. (Rear, hear.) If they wish id to recover or preserve the,canfidence of the public, they must take speedy measures to Gond liate the people—they mast identify. more with the people. It was notorious that they -Amos at that mo meiA in the Hot se about seventy Members, who were smt there at the nomination of certain individuals, t ‘e Vroprietors e f the Borought which they represent ed. Surely it could not be said that such Members were Representa7i yes of the People in that louse.— ' 'Piney in reality only l'epreit'zoted placcs..which having rich, opulent, and..popul.ous,shad c 11). p - . rtvilege of sending 'Members to that that right was virtually eatingtushed in of the decay, and impoverishment, and population, • which had subsequently taken These were circumstances too generally too universally admitted, to require any Evidence had been offered in proof their bar ; and, therefore, it was unne cessary for him to attempt to establish by argument What was so notoriously borne out by the fact. The evils resulting from such a state of the representation .were twofold ; first, many decayed, rotten, and un inhabited boroughs sent Members to that House, which had the effect of disfranchising a large portion of the population of the country ; and secondly, many opulent and populous places sent no Representatives whatever to Parliament. There were various other evils attending the present system which he should hereafter allude to, but the two he had thus stated would be sufficient for him to notice at that time. —Before he should proceed to the consideration of the evils that existed, and the remedy to be applied, he begged to say a few words as to the mode which he proposed to pursue. The grievance, as he had stated, was universallvadmitted. Everyman thought that a Reform in Parliament was necessary, but most men were alarmed at any idea of sudden or violent Reform. He was ready.to admit that he was one of those who telt this alarm ; and, however partial be might be tohis own plan, his intention was to move for a Committee, in which it might undergo a vigi lant revision, and he would have the opportunity of adopting any amendments which might Le recom. mended. His first step, therefore, would he to move, that a Committee be appointed to inquire into the state of the representation in that House. and to sus. gest what remedies might be applied to any evils that existed. But previously to his making that motion, he felt it a duty he awed to the House, to state spe cifically tie. plan which he had it in contemplation to recommend.—(Hear, hear.) He was not without i hope, too, that his plan would meet the support of many of his Honourable friends, as well those who wished well to Reform generally, as those who were alarmed at any sudden or violent Reform. Having stated thus .much as to the manner in which he meant to proceed, he came now to the principal evils which he wished to remedy, and to state the remedy he pro.' posed to recommend. The first and greatest evil that, existed was, that so many Members of that House were nominated by individuals, the proprietors of de cayed Loroughs. The remedy for this evil was t', be found in the good old constitutional practice of the Legislature. He was wet disposed t look to any in. titivation ; he should not consult any fanciful theory or speculative system ; he would be guided by the s rand practice of the British Constitution, and in that he should find means enough to remedy the evil of I which he complained. It was well kilt wn to have been the practice of old to relieve, on their application, particular Boroughs from the onus of sending Repre j sentativcs to Parliament. The same principle would authorise the disfranchisement of such Boroughs as no longer possessed property or popolition to entitle them to such a right. This principle had been uni formly acted upon, and lie trusted that on the present occasion it would be applied by that House, in order to correct the defects in the state of the Representa ! tion. He trusted that the decayed Boroughs, whose Representatives were sent to Parliament at the nomi nation of individuals, would be disfranchised, and the right of returning Members to that House transferred to more opulent and populous places. There could be no question that it would be more desirable to have in that Fouse Members uninfluenced, than such whose opinions and votes must be controuled by the individuals who nominated them. The remedy Wits pointed out by the Constitution ; and the only diffi culty that occurred to him, was, liner they were to ascertain what Boroughs w.'re so decaved as CO be proper objects for disfranchisement ? 'There were, he had reason to know, above thirty Boroughs which had not fifty voters each, :and the Representatives for which were consequently nominated by the pro prietors of the Boroughs. But it would be for the Committee, if lie should succeed, as lie hoped he should, in his motion, to ascertain what Boroughs were in that state, and to recommend to the House to disfranchise them—a recommendation which he trusted that House would act upon. Now that he I was adverting to that part of the question, he should . beg to make one or two observations on the right of election. That right, he must contend, could not exist in depopulated and uninhabited places. Pro perty real and personal, and populatitai, must and I ought to be the basis of such a right. When a place became deficient in population, and no property ex isted in it but, 'hat was possessed by the individual claiming the power of nomination, then the place must cease to possess the right of returning Repre sentatives to Parliament : and no consequenc , ! could result from its being suffered to remain with them, but such as were injurious and detrimental to the na tion. That property and population formed the basis of representation, he collected from the spirit of the Constitution. It was a principle recognised by our ancestors, and lie found it pervading every Inci of t their measures respecting the constitution of Parlia ment. The elective franchise for counties had very wisely been given to the freeholders of such coun- I ties. He should not think of altering that-arrange ment, but was of opinion that the copvholders should also be allowed to vote. He could see no ground in reason or principle, why they should not, equally with the freeholders, be permitted to vow for County Members. In this part of his plan, therefore, he should propose no innovation. He recognised the principle of making property_ the basis of the elective franchise; for property wo *td, inevitably, possess its influence, in spite of the theory of the philosopher, or the violence of the people. The counties, there fore, he should propose to have as they arc at the present, with the exception of adding the copyholders to the freeholders ; and, after the destruction of the I feudal system in this country, he could see no objee tion to a Bill for enfranchising copyholders. (Thar, hear.) This was the only alteration be proposed in ! the right of voting in counties, except in a few of the Northern counties, and in Scotland, of which he should say somixhing before he sat down. In the Metropolis, awl other poipnlens places, he should • propose that the right of votin - g should -be given to all householders paying parochial and other taxes. — This was a principle that had been recognised and acte4 upon by their anct stors and is proposing to , lon account of4e gooier ' 4p formerly tr *I . the p r said, that), Arbithi och e: but th the alter*on,itmase: tonirquence of the Navy wiks to hipaan decrease of pop The preservation if est ,place. These life, of the Navy; lug an known, and to rosperity And our very ex. demonstration. of the fact at d Theand roenpreths:ott net nropit, 1* thought that he removed Objection to Reform. He was aware that had not any of the ostentatious perade the affectation of being rendered such a! ligible to even the, meanest capacity, b o w f as pu in re elin English p lit r gro efer w it d . l, would be continued according to the gm ! and no alteration would be made, but the right of voting to copyholders in to ailltouseholders in populous towns and In the Northern Counties of England,England,- land, he could not see any reason why voting should .not be assimilated to the this country, and left in the counties tr freeholders and copyholders ; and in to householders paying parochial and Having made these observations on voting, he came, in the next pl ce, to question of disfranchising such boroughs the nomination of individuals. To this plan he could : not conceive any constitie non. It was conformable strictly to wh. the practice of Parliament in former times. was one very material difficulty erten. - could not so easily be got over, viz. how be proper to give compensation to the e . boroughs In principle, and on the ground they could not have any such claim ; the right became extinct in the borou;4l had t right tore-enter, and to claim the from the decayed boroughs. In feeling, , in equity, he thought that some compcn to be granted ; at the same time that ' deny that the borough proprietors had such compensation. Yet be would, with agree to grant the compensation • though it should be prodigal, it wo uld a saving to the country. He was seroilik part of his proposition would not meet - currence of those who were advocates was persuaded, that, upon reflection, of opinion, that, whatever taxes might oree- to defray this compensation, this cheapest payment ever made by the pu briefly stated his .plan, without antici! jections, or attempting to obviate th, had to say on this head he should reserve opportunity, when he should . hear wh should be urged his proposition. to the eonsi,!erati , a ci that material part the application of the Members. for tl, boroughs to places which' have not hit presented. Upon this head, not havitv evidence, it was impessible for him to point out the proper places to which right of election. North of Oxford-wrett I a population of above 400,001) inhabitants at present not represented It all. I, England, on the contrary, many Members to Parliament .otithatit have lation deserving of notice. What dal ask, could Gatton, Old Sarum, or inhabitants of St. Mawes, have to the ing Representatives to Parliament.? election, in his opinion, should be tra these and such places to Malicia:Ace and other populous towns. and the counties. By applying such Members set loose by the disfranchisement of the that way, the House would employ the tutianal remedy for the existing evil ; store the confidence of the country in and remove all those suspicions which, of the late events, attached to that HI too without any innovation, without any uncertain theory, and without any The practice of the Constitution. There instances of places having received the sentation in the manner he now recomi respect to Scotland, he could not feel . point out a remedy as he did with respect . country. He was not slifileiently informed state of Scotland, but he should suppose, could be no objection to assimilate the of that country to the laws of Engli not aware that there was any thing in f the Union of the two countries that such an arrangement. At least he ct duty of that House to inform itself upon and he could nut think that there was cens;3tent with that c ntract in the vouring to ameliorate thc laws of that to the state of the Repreientation in not disposed to pn pose any change. however, bring that subj !cc under the of the Committee, it his mution There were, hu had no doubt, Boroughs country, as well as in this, which were e'•" nomination of scne: Mem ers of t w But as the Union with that country was was not prepared to state how far that The House, he was sure, would see cessity of adopting his proposition ; bees could be so dangerous to the rights the nation as the terms of a free, and , military Government, (Hear. hear.) given a general outline of his plan, which to obviate the two prite:ipal objections state of the represeneftion. Other Gentlemen. consider other objections of m ire imr particularly that ie:pecting the dun' meats. Upon this question he had and earnest attention, and he found mous difficulty, but cf equal impotence Parliaments would leave the Represent accustomed to business to be competent in that House. He, for his part, wow to take a middle course between the two annual and septennial Parliaments, an, triennial Parliaments; which, without the would possess all the advantages of both. ficulties aft changing the duration of would be immense, unless a concurrent be made in the mode of making this rett head much discussion had taken place, opinions were entertained. Some thou& returns should be made by districts, others, votes should be taken by districts. return by districts he had strong objections by districts he approved. He did titer Gentlemen bad attended particular point, but lie considered it of co nsiderabl c He begged to exemplify the opinion he a reference to the county Riertfordshi seeittkit If there wcre four Membets ' ttoti the pi ',.le*rt i e that i!ii de of tlier , n., n, as to ! le r, but it hat acci.u..t gonstit m . 7 , cat in extendir.: n counties, is and boroue... td, and in by the right ry tne practit : in es to the resid ue n the tun ug h t. and nth er tau , on the right to consider 14 tughs as were i o this part stititt,, , ft II ° b iro whAt Lid jaws. But ti le tendinz it, a n kh how tar it mid r propriet.•r s 4 !ground of ri l ,ht, a; hecause alm s i'l;: 11 .• the per.p he representation ing, however, and opensatio n Nig h t lut at d he an si 7 I nitl Uij j to er with k_ because, aid eventually he sensible that di' ea with the eon- tes of stain in, b , , a, they would I tht be impnad his would be 11.- public. Ile h.\ icipating 343; them. What L. :serve fora futur r what objects,,, ion. He came n • part of the subject the disfrancLise hitherto been r, ring the neces to be competent th tea transfer d-strtet, there ibitantsorh9 In the West r places Tctu having any pcp claim,, he wo w the sub the right of • t 1 rl lk e transferred f ,tan, he must popul • 'hers as shawl.: I the Borough i. r the sound cont. tl ; they would re• in its farliamist, ich, in consequing t House, and that cat the adoption any departure frost here %acre repeated the right of repre ommended. Wi feel it so easy. respect to his u informed upon iuppme, that • • e the election la :ngltnd. He w is the contract ke IA would recluaie t considered it the • upon that subject, was any thing us- Legislature eudc , that country. As in Ireland, he us .age. He shoat!, the consideratina lonia! be-agreed to Boroughs in th it were entirely in the * Aristocricy.— y Was so retent, he that evil extended. ate and feel the ne- t because nothing is and 'liberties cc and the spirit of a ar.) He had the ), which would :ions to the Gentlemen :nigh: importance; and lunation of Pull/• ad bestowed mad d it ole of nor• tam tance Annual esentative too lade etent, to his duties would be incline! t two extremes ei and to recomm in the evils °fruiter both. But 'he J:f• of the Parliament ent change were to is return. Oa this place, and varies thought that the 3)) 1 I i 6 .n r e sd s h t no ttctobTit o t h e r s , o r eh ne b 3rm)sdl k now: y a p 0 t :e th .th e tce.lb!