Star. — London, England, 1821-02-06 00:00:00

IPw° ~~_ .i.;r, bat his Majesty's Ministers did not intend. to origi; nate any measure on the subject. Theinquiry made into this subject, last year, carried no remedy. In deed, to him, it appeared that the distresses of the Agriculturists were not attributable to any deficiency in the laws. They were entirely to be attributed to the internal circumstances of the country. He was, however, sorry to be obliged to confess that his Ma jesty's Government were enable to propose any mea sure for their relief. Though they would not charge themselves with the instituting of any measure, yet if an inquiry were proposed, they would most wil lingly go into it. He should, at the same time, most cautiously and most distinctly guard against any im pressions of giving relief by going into an investi gationo-imptessions very easily created, but after. wards very difficult to allay. He should go into these matters more fully when the Committee were sluing—that would be the proper time. Though he should not take on limself the responsibility of moving for a Committee, he would, however, feel , great pleasure in going into it. CeNsUite ON THE coxoucT or MINISTERS. The Marquis of TAVISTOCK. said he rose, in compliance with the wishes of his friends, in order to ascertain the sense of that House on the merits of the question of which he had given notice on a former day. He never, on any occasion before in his life, felt the inadequacy of his powers so much as at pre sent. The question, to the examination of Which they were now to come, required greater talent than he possessed; but, very forotuately for him, it had undergone so much discussion throughout ie coun try, and was made so plain in that House, that no thing now remained. but to express their resolution on it—l Hear, hear). He trusted that that House, which had signified its reluctance to entertain the reseeding% in the first instance, Wonld now, after their experience, come to the resolution that they were proceedings pr: during pure and unmixed evil. lie trusted that the Ilenourable Member for Bram bar would now be disposed to admit, that his pro phecy of this being " an inquiry derogatory from the honour of the Crown, and injurious to the best interests of the People," was now sufficiently verified (Hear, hear). He would abstain from entering into the hi-tory of the proceedings that had taken place the other House, and strictly confirm himself to an• etamination of the conduct of Ministers, which, in whatever circle, or by whatever body considered, was unequivocally and universally condemned.— There would be now another opportunity given to ascertain if the feelings of that House were in unison with those of the People, and tehether they were ca -1 onniated by the Reformers? He would not travel into the history of the sufferings of the unfortunate Lady herself, neither would he attempt to place in contrast the present conduct of her persecutors, and their conduct towards her when she was in prospe rity. That conduct was fully before Parliament, and they had formed their opinion upon it. The exclu sion of her Majesty's name from the Liturgy, had bzeu already fully discussed, and indeed decided upon; and after the able speeches, and especially the powerful one of an Honourable and Learned Gentle man (Mr. Wetherell) that had been heard in that Lkiuse on a former night, lie should feel himself un wart anted in occupying the time of the House in any observations upon chat subject; he would merely say, that he had been taught from infancy, that it was a golden rule, in no case to be departed from, that where a doubt of guilt existed, the party charged - was to have the benefit of that doubt. He must ever con sider that act of Ministers not.enly as an act of cruel injustice, but also of pure and Unqualified mischief. Rash and impolitic, unjust and illegal, as that act was, he confessed he was not ono.who regarded with dismay the decision of the House that night. If he was successful, the vote would he hailed by the coun try as the first earnest of that Reform which they all so much wished for; and he trusted that the table of that House would be loaded with Petitions from every corner of the kingdom, and that something might ultimately be done towards rendering that House what it ought to be, the organ of public opi nion, and the effective cootrouler of Ministers— ( Harr, hear). The next act of hostility,by Ministers was the preienting a Green Bag to both the Houses, of Parliament ; and he would ask these men, when they brought down this Bag, fillod with documents which the world MAY knew to to. of the most dis gusting nature, did they, or did they not believe the st ttements it contained ? If not, they were guilty of an act of treason to the Sovereign, the People, and ' the Queen. If they did, they were still mere guilty, because they sheaved an utter disregard for the ho nour and safety of the Crown, and even for consist ency, for they said to the aueen—" We have against you proofs of licentious intercourse as strong as Holy Writ; buf we ask of you to consult our convenience; remain abroad, here are fifty thousand pounds per annum for you, out of the pockets of the People r- I nstez I of acting for the honour of the Crown, which they had professed to have at heart, they effectually brought dishonour to the Crown, and disgrace on Parliament. Then came the Bill of Pains and Pe nalties in the other House, where the country had seen those persons sitting as jurors, Who had per sonally stigmatised her Nlajesty, and where there, were others haying a deep interest in the issue of the trial. It was not his purpose to enter into an exami nation of thit anomalous measure. He would merely stop to express his abhorrence of the disgusting de tails, which were poured forth from day to day, and all of which might have been spared by not entering into this unnecessary inquiry. When the Bill was Withdrawn, the country did indulge in the reasonable expectation that,. with the abandonment of the Bill, the question would be set at rest for ever. But it ap peared that her Majesty was deemed unworthy of the rights and privileges of Queen Consort. The Noble Lord opposite talked even of a technical ac quittal, and then asked if her Majesty . Was entitled to the fall restoration (Wall her rights and Privileges? Of all the doctrines that he had ever heard, none appeared to him more monstrous than that which sanctioned the whispering away a person's character, who had been tried and acquitted. If such a prat-' Lice -'were adopted, what safety had any man for kiereputation? He utterly protested against that clew principle of the Noble Lord's, according to which, the House was to treat her Majesty, sot as a per Dan legally acquitted, bat according to its impees 'ions of the evidence adduced against her. He so unjust / (lusted that the llonie would not Mallon a precedent. He exhorted the Iktise to adhere to tistsuirvwm of the Constitution—the,/first of which Was to proinnse a person innocent ufitil found to be `guilty. If there was any one who had a greater claim to the benefit of this maxim, it was the person who had been tried and acquitted. BUt it seemed the Noble Lbrd had stated as a reason, for the pu nishment of her Majesty, that she was in open hosti lity to the prerogatives of the Crown. But what was their conduct with this statement in their mouths? They gave her £50,000 a-year as a pecu niary provision, and denied her the lull restoration of her rights, because, they said, she was guilty of that on account of which she not only ought to have a small-provision . , but deserved to be impeached; could it be endured, that after having failed to esta blish the direct and open charges, they should now attempt to destroy her character by insinuations? This was not the language of Ministers at the com mencement of these proceedings. The House were told, that either the Bill would pass, or that her Ma jesty would be acquitted and restored to all her rights and privileges of Queen Consort. Yet, not withstanding this assurance, the Bill being with drawn, her Majesty was still treated as if she had not been acquitted. Was this anything like the con duct of statesmen? It was more like the vacillating system of the present Ministers ; but the time would come, sooner or later, when they must again re change their plans, and restore her Majesty s name to the Liturg% He had heard of men ready toll° anything for the security of their places. But such a charge was never made with more truth than against the present Ministers, because he believed they retained them at the expense of acting contrary to their own private judgments. For the sake of office they had dragged an Illustrious Person to trial ; they had done an injury to religion by making it subser vient to political purposes ; they had brought con tempt upon the constituted authorities, and made an irreparable breach between the Parliament and the People—(Hear, hear). These were heavy charges. But could any one lay his haild to his heart and say, .that Ministers were actuated by any of those motives by which they pretended to be guided ? They had also, for the first time, connected with their measures the personal feelings of the Sovereign. The most disgraceful part of the whole case was the use which they allowed to be made of the name of his Ma!esty, arid the attempt which they made to shift fioni them selves the responsibility of their own measures. Was this just to the Sovereign himself, or was it in ac cordance with the concern which they pretended to feel for the honour and dignity of the Monarchy ? However Ministers were saatctioned by the usual ma jorities, and he was afraid ag4nst the judgment of those who supported them, he could assure the Noble Lord opposite,' that whatever might be the fate of this motion, he would give him but little trouble hereafter, seeing that the Noble Lord's will was every thing, and the sense of the People nothing—(Hear). He begged pardon for thus occupying the time of the House. The question would be more ably treated by those who were to come after him, particularly ,by his Hon. Friend the Member for Durham. He , was led to make the motion from a strong belief that he would be acting in obedience to the sense of the country. Whatever might be his swishes for the pro motion of his friends to office, he was still only anxious fur a change of measures; and he could as sure the House, that he would rather see those friends where they were, than see them in the possession of power upon the condition of pursuing the system of the present Administration. For himself he aimed at no preferment, so unfit did he feel himself for office, and so indisposed was he towards it, that he had lung ago formed the determination to accept 011 office under r Administration. Even a seat hi Par liament was no object of his ambition, only inasmuch as it enabled - him to be of use to those whom he was . disposed to serve. Not unwillingly would he at any time relinquish even the honour of a seat, seeing that public opinion had less influence here than in any country, perhaps, in Eutope. Warmly as he de sired the removal of the present Ministers, still if his friends were to come into office to-tncirrow, without putting the principles of Reform into action, he, for one, would not give them his support—( Hear). — If the spirit of disloyalty existed in the country, the Government had encouraed it, Let the House only recollect the cheerful submission of the People to the mustoppressive burdens, and then reflect upon the tone with which they had been treated ! It was inipossi ble not to admire their patience under heavy trials —their peaceful demeanour, combined with their hatred of oppression, and their memorable interpo sition for the protection of her Majesty. lie be sought the House, on whom the eyes of the country were fixed with anxiety, to consider well the merits of the question, and to remember that the country, at le.lst the g reat majority, baal already loudly pia. claimed their disapprobation of their proceedings. — ( !he Noble Marquis »as cheered loudly at the coa clusior, of his .vprech ).—He then Moved that. " It appears to this House, that his 'Majesty's Miniticrs, In advising the recent measures aguiast her Majesty, were not jus tified by any principle of political expediency dr necessity, and that theft conduct in so dying bad led to consequences deroga tory frosts the honour of the Crown, and injurious to the best interests of the Nation.. Mr. LAMBTON said, that in rising to second the motion of his Noble Friend, he felt satisfaction that much of the difficulty of the task had been removed Lby his feeling and eloquent speech, and because he was proud at being united with his Noble Friend against measures which, in his opinion, were calcu lated much to injure the best interests of the coun try, as well as in support of principles, the violation of which the whole Nation had .now joined in repro bating. The character of his Noble Friend, and his hereditary attachment to the liberties of the people, were ample securities to him (Mr. Lambton) that in pursuing the same track he would merit the consci entious approbation of every rational man. But espe cially he felt that he would be acting in disobedience to the sense of his constituents, if be failed to lose , any opportunity of vindicating the outraged consti tutional principles of the aviary: It was not neces sary to remind the House of the nature aad-origin of the prOceedings in question. It now appeared, that' with a full knowledge of the evidence against her Majesty, and with a full sense also .of the political eecessity for the prosecution against the Queen, and. fully satisfied by one view of Majocehi, of the na ture it that evidence, tike Ministers agreed to a pro vi sionior . her '*liijesty-44 the Noble Lasd opposite, only five days after the appearance of Majorpchi --.., after coming from Pall-Mall, states' his wilthignefi' to agree to a provision for her Majesty, In February last, the Noble Lord, and the Chancellor of the Ex chequer after him, pledged Ministers to consent to a provision for her Majesty. But these professions, it seemed, were only in appearance, and to be fulfilled upon the condition only of her residence abroid.— She was offered a revenue upon that Condition through Lord Hutchinsen, by the very man who affected to be so indignant at the disgrace which her conduct in flicted on the honour of his country. Such was the suitable provision for her Majesty. They said that the proceedings arose out of the necessity there was for preserving the interests of morality, and for the .maintenance of the dignity of the Crown. Now, let the House mirk how consistently they acted upon this sense.—They were in possession of infermation that her Majesty was daily, by her conduct, lower'-, ing the character of this country in the eyes of fo reign nations: yet what did they do ?—they endea voured to shut her out of the country—to keep off the possibility of repentance—they endeavoured to persuade her to return to Italy, call back her sup posed paramour, and continue to keep up that inter course, the existence of which was deemed sufficient to render her unwdrthy to be associated with the Monarch in the prayers of the People. Now was not this the basest hypocrisy ? Had they believed her Majesty to be guilty, they should not have en couraged the notion of compromise for an instant. But her Majesty rejected the offer, and landed in England amidst the acclamations of the people. No one asked for this inquiry. There was only one feel ing of indignation for the conduct of her oppressors. How then could , it be pretended that the dignity of the throne was placed in jeopardy ?—the age of her Majesty prevented any a larm as to the possibility of a disputed succession; and, amidst all these conti derations, could it have escaped the attention of Mi nisters, that the inquiry must produce an interruption of public tranquillity, and that no State expediency could in any manner justify it, if by that word was meant an anxiety for the true interests, the good or der, the peace, and happiitess of the Nation (!leer). He did not mean to say, that no occasion could jus tify the introduction of a Bill of Pains and Penalties; but nothing short of a paramount necessity, which did not exist in this case, could authorise having re course to such a measure. Nothing, in short, but motives of a vindictive nature could be traced as the origin of these proceedings. When the Green Bag was brought down, he rensesnbel ed. the Hon. Member for Bramber saying, that though, when alluding to it, there was a smile on his lips, yet that there was a pang at his heart. But, although they professed to be actuated by a sense of the dignity of the Throne, and a zeal for the honour of the country, in bringing this measure forward, yet, in fifteen days, they them selves agreed to a Resolution, pronouncing their own proceeding to be derogatory from the honour of the Crown, and injurious to the best interests of the Na tion. The anticipations of this Resolution expressing this opinion, no one could deny were fully realised. The Monarchy and the institutions of the country were lowered; and, above all, that veil which policy had thrown over Royalty, for the purpose of keeping' 'out of view the actions and motives of the Sovereir that veil had been torn aside—(lkar, hear). 111; records of past errors were revived, not one indivi dual of the Royal Family but Was made the subject of some disgraceful print or satire, and if the doctrine of recrimination had not been adopted, they owed it rather to the forbearance of Counsel, than to any le gal obstacle against it.; and had the proceeding been persevered in, he believed it would have ended in civil dissention. He would ask any Gentleman on the opposite side of the House, if lie did not use the utmost caution in excluding from the view of his fa mily all Newspapers which contained any part of the details of this proceeding ? The Hon. Member next alluded to the evidence of the witnesses against her Majesty, and said, that in his opinion it was defective and rotten. He asked, why did not Ministers enter into an examination of the characters of the witnesses as eagetly, as they believed their tales? Why not elamine those - respectable persons who might have farnished them with some information that would teach them to estimate the characters of those persons ? Was it drat treachery was a passport to the confidence of Ministers, and would they say that respectability of character, rank, education, and virtue, were so nrany disqualifications for their respect? The People and he (Mr. Lambton) joined with them, saw in the whole proceeding evident traces of a Conspiracy to dethrone her*Majesty and degrade her. They saw that the Cominission sought only Matter of accusa tion; without attending to the investigation of truth.. He should not be surprised to hear the Noble Lord rest his defence on an appeal to the conduct of those who were its power in 1806, with respect to the then Princess of Wales. Upon this they would be rot: bat that was not the questipn, for it was impossible that one act of injustice could be warranted, because another had been committed before. The refusal of a list of witnesses—the keeping her Majesty in igno rance of the time and places of the charges—all these, to use the Noble Lord's expression, formed strong features in the case, and shewed, that when once a system of wrong and injustice were begun, the course must be persevered in, by heaping wrong upon wrong, in order to preserve consistency. But the Ministers were responsible for the prorogation, and for the fer ment which their preeeedings created. They were as responsible for the impression which they allowed to be made, that the abandonment of the Bill was dis approved of by his Majesty, as that itl introduction, eras in obedience to his wishes—(Hear, He held the measures of Ministers to be wholly un.; just, subversive of the liberties of the subject, and cal. cdtated to destroy public tranquillity. In his opi. Ilion, he felt that he was borne out by the sense of the majority of the People, expressed at their Meet. ] ings and in their Petitions. To these were opposed! the Loyal Addresses, got up in holes and corners,, and which, by the way, cautiously avoided any alma• sions to the proceedings against her Majesty. After this, he would leave it to the House to judge to which tilde the greatest weight was due. With respect to the motion before the House, perhaps, as a Reformer, ire should wish that it were unsuccessful, in order Still more effectually to exhibit the variance between the opinibn and wishes of that House and those of "the People. But when he remembered the degree of disappointment and desperation which its failure would produce in the country, he felt the strongest, anxiety for its suceess-4.Hean. • Mr. BATHURST admittel the manly manner 4 . which the subject had been treated by the t wo 1 14 speakers. The object of the motion seemed to b e , Ist, the removal of Ministers; and secondly, a R e. form in Parliament. But he was sorry to hea r a le Noble Lord declare, with his talents and connettiote, that he would form no part of any Administratics;. He was aware, that atter such repeated disco:tint, nothing worthy of remark was to be expected. lk (Mr. Bathurst) was called upon to enter on a ve r y , e _• vidious task, Bat he would ask Geutlemen opposite to place themselves for a moment in the situatio n i ; the responsible Ailvisers of the' Crown. He h a d wish to compare the conduct of Governme nt *4 that of a former Administration, as they both stop,) on their own merits. If reports of g: eat tnicorta act on the part of the Queen had reached the ear s e i r t iii Advisers of the Crown, was It not prorer, p rev i eoi to inquiry, to institute some measure on the subj e ri.i That step had been taken, and the personi se t e , tef for the inquiry were men of the highest honou r , 40 1- who could have no motive to disguise or cutic u la * . truth. It would have been more satisfactory t o a y had the return been made, that there was ne e dation for the rumours. But the case had keen dij, ferent ; and in similar circumstances, any indiyid u i would have been justified in Instituting proceeding, in the case of his own wife. The Queen had hem disposed to come into the country, and to d enimd all the rights of her rank ; in that case, it wa s an in:. perious duty on the part of Government to prey ei „ such a step; and with that view the offer of E,50 1 ; had been made, to put a stop to the diicussi a nt which must take place in the event of h er val ; and at one time there was no reason to b e , lieve that the terms would have been unacceptabi. Under the impreSsion that prevailed among Aid e decent part of the community, it was not fitting that she should have all the privileges that had been e, joyed by other Queens Consort, and Ministers h a / done all in their power to avoid the discussioastl a had subsequently taken place. That had been* object of the Member for If mother, and not to pa l stop to fin titer inquiry, should the Queen refuel, accede to the Address of the House. A motioshe afterwards been made to put a stop to all procesll logs, and had been negatived by a large. ni.njusltl, In numerous cases, the publication of the ot t e r% had been attended with prejudicial effcc:s; but frogs the nature of the case, that was ft equently unsaid. able. When direct evidence could not be obtains( it was necessary to have recourse to circumatinall i and that might lead to details which every ne s t man would wish could have been avoided. Eye? , effort had been made by the Ministers of the Om' .to avoid such disclosures. The Queen had demise an equivalent, in point of honour, for the =hie of her name in the Liturgy ; and that had heti forded to her by the Address of the House. Ile that been acceded to on the part of the Queens the subsequent proceedings would have been pre vented. As some proceedings must have takenplaa it was obvious that the ordinary tribunals of Os country were inadequate to the investigatioa t ai a legislative proceeding must be had mama. That must either have been an impeachmestet Bill of Pains and Penalties, and" the latter auk& to be the preferable mode. As the other Ilseehal taken the matter up, it would have been incongram in the House of Commons to have institued proceedings. He freely admitted that Miuistenalni were responsible for all that had taken place. Ity Queen and her advisers had never regarded thee sertion of her name in the Liturgy as a matter right, as in the negotiation that had taken pbee after the Queen's arrival in_ this country, it hi been demanded as a matter of favour and bow. The vote for the second reading of the hill in rte Lords had pronounced on the guilt of the panic but the charge now was, that, notwithstanding int was called- the acquittal of the Queen, her nap lel not been restored to the Liturgy ; but why ludic been called for on the ground of an acquittal al Court of Law, and not- on the ground of moral cot viition of the innocence of the individual? On de subject of the prorogation of Parliament, he see why Ministers should be called on to state it reasons of that measure, especially as the Hooka , only continued its sittings in- the idea that the lii Paint and Penalties would have come down.fieek other House. The Crown had the means of cal nuing the provision of £35,000 to the (been; had been distinetlf understood, that no WO would be entered upon, if the Bill of Pains AO nalties should not come down. If the Hansa of opinion that Ministers ..had no choice, and* • they had rio private interests to gratify, they we' express that opinion. But the servants oftheC had intended to do their duty to the Crown and and it was impossible that the House would to pass that censure which it was the object of ' present motion to convey.=-(Hear, Hear} Mr. WHITMORE thought that it was the of every man to stand forward upon a ques tion so deeply affected the vital interests of the c as that which was now before the Houte.-1 1 . 1 himself called upon to support the motion (4 113 ble fiiend. He petfeetly concurred with ..larn! . nothing but the greatest State necessity— fact, but where the succession to the Crow's seat . dangered, could justify such proceeding& I . 3 ra never was pretended as such ; indeed, they sr!" morality of the nation required it—theexamP: by the Queen was dangerous.. But norhinvon: more absurd than such a statement. Adnuttmg.r__ the charges of which the Queen had been a c ie l7l had been proved to be true, still they were in this country: they occurred in the middle u e Mediterranean. They might have been kno wn the higher circles of society, but they wer e of amongst that class of the people in whic h sterling worth of the nation exists—(Hearr hi He was aware that it should be said the Qua" th r forced herself on the country, and compelled to undertake the proceedings. He (Me. *as of opinion that she had been forced DY,,, to come to the country—(Lard cries4 .ll6l6 ' He contended that proceedings had been c against her before her Majesty had cometotr try—(Hear, hear). %V as it nothing tostr!keh er ; out of the Liturgy ?—( Cheera.)—% as it n° 4 give instructions to foreign Mi n isters not to tr 7 nize her as Queen ?—( Loud caters.) —Stn e . l l !tai such circumstances , there was no tilternatt e 4 her Majesty, but either to admit nee gui l t ~ 'charges of which she had been awned; "4