Star. — London, England, 1822-06-27 00:00:00

r _ .1 - N+lll ;:, 7! .w t . 1 1 1. • PARLAAAIEinrARY* PROCEEDINGS. aotisi bit. LORDS. JUNE 26. totitionti.wes•Npresenied against the Importation of Corn 4 Jams Amendment Bill front •the Owners and Occupier of ~ Land of various Parishes in the Counties of Northumberland, Cornwall, Warwick, and Sussex, by the Duke of Poen.anni the Earl of Sr. Gsarnues, the Earl of Ptalapirrn, and the Earl of Erstunoax. —Ladd on the table. The Earl of EGREMONT also presented a Petition pine the same Bill from the Members of the Sussex Central atairiest• tural Association.—Laid on the table. Lord ERSKINE presented a Petition from the . Inhabitants of Poplar and Bromley, in favour of the Bill for preventing Cruelty to Animals.,—Laid on the table. IRISH RECORDS. The Marquis of DOWNSH IRE wished to correct a misun derstanding which had gone abroad when he had moved for certain Returns respecting the Commission appointed to ex amine Public Records in Ireland. It had been represented in some Paper, that the observations with which he had introduced ' his motion, applied to the Commission for inquiring Into Courts of Justice in Ireland. He had made no such application. He knew, on the contrary, this the advantages derived from the la bours of that Commission were great beyond precedent. They had already led to a considerable saving, which would shortly amount to £81,000; and the success with which they had been attended, proved what benefits Might be produced from an in.. quiry into all the Courts of that country. The Noble Marquis then restated his objection to the eapense incurred by the Com missioners to examine Records, which , in ten yeays amounted to .6110,000, and wished to know when the Returns to his motion would be made? The Earl of LIVERPOOL stated, that Ite had spoken to the Secretary for Ireland, who had written to that .country to expe dite the Returns, which he expected would now be made in a few days. Not only had much advantage been derived from the Commission appointed to inquire into the Will Courts of Justice, but the Commission established by the Bill,of last Ses sion for inquiring into all the parts connected with - the Revenge in Ireland was now hard at work, and much benefit might be. expected from its labours. MARRIAGE ACT. The Order of the Day for receiving the Report of the Committee having been read, The LORD CHANCELLOR expressed his ap probation of the prospective part of the Bill. He felt satisfied that the measure would secure a great im provement of the law with respect to future mar riages. He also rejoiced that the principle had been caablithed that marriages once solemnized could not be made null and void ; but this was all that met with his approbation. If the retrospective part of the Bill were passed, it would undo all that had been done since 1754, and would become a precedent for other measures of an equally injurious nature. He should therefore consider that he was not doing his duty, if he did not make a proposition to the House, with the view of recording on its journals, that he had not given his consent to that part of the mea sure. The Noble and Learned Earl then restated his objections to the retrospective clause. It would destroy all the rights to property or titles of honour, of those who were not in actual possession. But it was a question whether their Lordships had a right to legislate with respect to titles of honour, and thus to interfere with the privileges of the Crown? They could not estimate the mischief which they might do if they passed that clause. They would disregard the rights of presumptive heirs, and in cases where Ouse heirs might have disposed, as they had a right to do, of their reversionary claims for a good consi deration, would they tell those who had bought them that they should lose their money and the estates too? fhe clause rendered marriages solemnized by licenses valid, but it left those obtained by undue banns to s hift for themselves, yet the hardships might be a. great in the one case as the other, though in one the rich, and in the other the poor, were concerned. The Noble and Learned Earl quoted several instances in which great individual injustice and injury had arisen in consequence of the wrong formation of wills, and yet no retrospective law had been passed on their account. He also shewed how the present clause might operate to the disadvantage of those from whom property had been willed away by their rela tions, because they were considered to be legal heirs to some estate. They had already lost the property through their just expectations, and now those expec tations would be destroyed, and the estates to which they were thought to be entitled would be lest to them. Should that clause pass, he should reserve to himself the right of moving certain amendments and provisos, one of which should class among the excep tions from the operation of the Bill, those marriages as to which it bad been proved in a Court of Justice that the parties had acknowledged their invalidity soon enough after their solemnization to enable them to contract another. He should also propose two clauses to the effect that every conveyance of real or personal property which had taken place before the passing of the Act, or any sale of reversionary claims for a good and valuable consideration, should remain as effectual and valid as if the Act had never passed. No man in the country stood so much charged with the care of property as he did, and he thought this Bill, as to property, would be one of the worst that ever were passed. He should not feel his conscience at rest if he did not record on the Journals of the House that such a Bill could have no support from him, and he hoped that his Noble Friend (the Earl of Liverpool), who had moved in the Committee that the exceptions should be extended to ,the suits now pending in Courts of Justice, would again take the sense elf the House upon that subject. Lord ELLENBOItOUGH had been relieved by the speech of the Noble and Learned Lord, from much of the anxiety which he had experienced whilst considering what his great learning and ability might produce. Though he could not discover any difficulty sufficient to prevent their Lordships from passing the present Bill, yet he feared that the ingenuity of the Noble and Learned Earl might have started objec tions of a formidable nature. His speech had re moved that apprehension, and he found that there were questions in which the heart of youth was wiser than the head of age. The Noble and Learned Earl had declared that he approved the principle that mar riages once solemnised should be indissOluble. Having once established that principle, how could their Lord ships, with any regard to morality and religion, re fuse to apply it to the marriages which had taken place in the past, as well as to those which would occur in future? The Noble and Learned Lord was afraid of creating a precedent; but this Bin itself was founded on precedents ; for several measures to van date marriages had passed through both Houses in the years 1804 and 1808, without any exceptions as , property, or any objections from the Noble and Learned Earl, and not a single complaint had since been heard of their effects. Even now but one Peti tion had been presented against the retrospective i occ lo fr u ; I I dat I. the to I Le ba tioi clause, :crest of virtuous allies, and . igt, and happiness of the country. With respect to the Sew difficulties started by the Noble and Learned Lord, they had already attracted the attention of the framers of the Bill, especially the case in which re versionary rights should have been disposed of for a good consideration ' and he should have to propose a clause, 'which he should be happy to submit to the Noble Lord, which would have the effect of charging ea the estate the sum received for its reversion. He assured the Noble and Learned Earl, that the clauses which he (the Lord Chancellor) intended to propose, should be treated with due attention, and that he (Lord Ellenborough) would be happy to agree with his amendments, provided the principle of the retro spective clause should be held sacred. The LORD CHANCELLOR had not failed in respect to the Noble Lord or to the House, in not submitting his clauses for their consideration. He i had not had time to pen diem, except when engaged in the business of the Courts ; but when the retrospec tive clause should have been carried, as he expected it would be, he should have no objection to commu nicate them to the Noble Lord, and to postpone moving them till the third reading of the Bill. Lord ELLENBOROUGH assured the Noble and Learned Earl, that if he would propose a clause to remedy the deficiency which he had observed in the Bill, and to validate marriages solemnized by undue banns as well as those by licenses, it would be re ceived.by the friends of the measure in the most fa vourable manner. The LORD CHANCELLOR then said, that for the purpose of recording his opinion he should now move, " That the retrospective clause be left out of the Bill." The Earl of HARROWBY wished thatthe Amend ments proposed by the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, should be added to the clause, before the sense of the House should be taken, as it might procure many more votes in its favour. The Earl of LIVERPOOL was for a retrospective clause, but a modified one, and moved that these words be added to the first exception-4. Provided that the said clause be not construed to extend to any marriage with respect to the validity of which suits were now depending." A long conversation ensued as to the best mode of putting the question. It was at last, however, put on the LORD CHANcsLLoit's motion, when the tetrospec tive clause was adopted without a division. The Earl of LIVER POOL then moved his proviso. The Marquis of LANSDOWN opposed it, as tending to prevent that general settlement of all li- ' tigious questions which it was the object of the Bill to effect. The only defined point where to stop at, was, in his opinion, the actual possession or enjoy ment of property. After a few words from the LORD CHANCELLOR and the Earl of WESTMORLAND, the Ilouse divided on t..e Amendment : Contents • 2$ Non Contents 67 Majority against the Amendment —39 Oa the re-admission of strangers, it was understood that the Loan CHANCELLOR'S clauses had been re ceived and ordered to be pl inLed. Another conversation then arost respecting the time and nature of the next proceeding, at the close of which it was ordered, on the motion of Lord ELLEN BOROUGH, that the further consideration of the Re port should be adjourned to Friday next, and that their Lordships should be summoned for that day.— Adjourned. have no objection to give every information in his power. Lord ALTHORP spoke in favour of the motion. Mr. WYNN Asserted, that the present motion could not be agreed to without bearing an invidious meaning. The Marquis of CHANDOS defended the Bucks Yeomanry. Mr. HUME said he thought the circumstance of the Backs Yeomanry charging so much as they bad done for coming up to the Coronation, was quite sufficient to warrant their making an inquiry on this subject. Lord PALMERSTON felt himself quite at a loss to under stand upon what Parliamentary ground the Hen. Member made his motion. It might be satisfactory to the Hon. Member to knOw, that not one of the Corps he had selected for his Return had received one shilling for the year list, except for perma nent duty—(Hear).—The pay for that was Ss. a day, and nothing had been paid to them for suppressing riots. Mr. DAWSON and the Marquis of CHANSONS explained. Mr. RENNET contended that there was nothing invidious in the motion of his Hon. Friend. He expressly stated that he called for Returns with regard to these particular Regiments, because it appeared that they were more expensive than others. After a few words from Mr. MONCIC, Mr. Hoax, and Mr. DawsoN, the motion was withdrawn, upon an understanding that the deficiency in point of information in the present accounts should be supplied. COURT OF CHANCERY. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR reminded the House that when he made a motion on the subject he then rose to resume, last Session, there was a feeling in favour of it on both sides of the House, and it was nega tived only by a majority of four. He need scarcely tell the House what were the evils of a suit in Equity. —The expenses of such a suit were sufficient to ruin any moderate fortune. The evils being so great it might be asked why they saw or. their table no Peti tions complaining of them? The House might under stand this, when he told them that, in consequence of the jurisdiction of that branch of the law being in the hands of one individual, be never yet could prevail on any of the persons aggtievad, by delay or otherwise, to allow him to mention their names. In all the anonymous applications he had received, how ever, he had taken the greatest pains to ascertain the truth of the allegations. The Hon. Member pro ceeded to state a case of an individual, who had been left one twenty-eighth share of a certain property near London, which was valued at 1,200/. the single share. The property, however, fell into Chancery, and after twelve years delay the decree was made, by which this individual got 4501. out of his 1,2501. The Hon. Gentleman stated other cases of delay and loss, of which he had heard, to justify the motion he was about to make, to induce the House to make some alteration in the constitution of the Vice-Chancellor's Court in favour of the suitor. In the Reports of the Committees of Inquiry in the years 1811 and 1812, the abuses of the Chancery Court were so ably ex posed, that a Bill was brought in for the appointment of a Vice-Chancellor. That Bill was opposed by characters of the first consideration on both sides of the House. Amongst others it was opposed by Sir Samuel Romilly—a man as eminent in his station as any great man of any description ever was in his.— But he had even the authority of the present Vice- Chancellor himself against the appointment. The Bill, however, passed the House, as he thought, in an evil hour, for it deprived the suitor of the right of having his cause heard by the Great Seal. It was the business of the Great bye to administer justice in the ciica[est and most speedy manner. But with all the talents of Lord Eldon, the delay in his Court was tenfold, and the expenses enormous, and that was because he was withdrawn from the Court. The fact was, he was more of a Statesman than Judge, and it did happen that, whenever a ca..e of great intricacy was commenced, he shut his note-bo ,, k, and went away— ( near, hear and \o I limn the Ministerial benches).—He meant no reflection on that great and good personage, but he stated what he believed to be the case. It was no fault of his, for he was called away to the Privy Council, or on some •other State business. The consequence of this multifarious duty of this office was, that in eight years and a half he had decided only 53 causes and 157 appeals. The Vice-Chancellor had determined 2,300 causes in the same time, and he asked if this was not withdrawing the Great Seal from the Chancery Court? All this arose from his being so much harassed with other business. With respect to motions, since the enact ment of the Vice-Chancellor's Bill, the Lord Chan cellor had heard 5,150, the Vice-Chancellor had heard 14,560. Now he should like to know how many of these motions before the Chancellor were appeals from the Vice-Chancellor ; for he knew that a gi eat portion of his time was taken up with such business. All this .wus exactly what Sir Samuel Hominy had foretold. Sir Samuel Romilly had said, that the hear ing of these appeals upon motions would probably take up as much time as was then devoted by the Lord Chancellor in the Court. He also said, that it would have the effect of increasing the expenses of the suit, multiplying the number of them, and pro tracting the decision. In the same space f time, the Lord Chancellor had heard 39 exceptions and further hearings, whilst the Vice-Chancellor heard 106. In petitions also, where the Lord Chancellor had heard 4071, the Vice-Chancellor had heard 2302. This was absolutely withdrawing the Lord Chancellor from his Court. He assured the Noble Marquis op posite, who, he supposed, was going to oppose him in his motion, that it would be better for him to sit two months longer in that House, than have the anxiety and vekatton of a Chancery suit. He would say no more, but leave it to the good sense of the House to determine upon what he had already stated to them. He would only entreat of them to take into their consideration the case of the unfortunate suitor, or rather suppliant, who, after being dragged through all the horror of an equity ordeal, awoke to the worst reality of worsted fortune and ruined property by the merciful decree of the Lord Chancellor. From such mercy, he said, might the (ion in Heaven deliver them I He now wished to see what had been done by the House of Lords since the passing of the Bill for appointing the . Vice-Chancellor. The ntkmber of cases , disposed of in the first year was 66, in. the se; coed 82, in the next 54, and in the years which fol lowed, 42, 35, 27, 41; 22, and 26. This was the state of things OD the 10th of May, 1822, when there remained in affair cases .already appointed 122, and 35. cuss not appointed. Taking the cases decided in each year en the average of the last nine years, he found the number disposed of in each year to be 38. d this rate,' it would take four years to cases already in atrear ; matters beilt , ice-Chancellor's Bill did not afford the I' the desired relief, he would propose .s duties the hearing of Scotch Appeals, occupied so much time ; and he would from petitigns and Motions, and pats __ Bankruptcy business. He earnestly pressed on . the House the importance of giving their most serious attention to the subject, with a view to remedy the evils of which he complained. He had spoken oa this business with the Lord Chancellor, having pre. viously postponed his motion on a suggestion from that Noble and Learned Personage. The Lord Ch an . cellor adititted the case to he one that merited atten: don; but said, as he might shortly retire from the Great Seal, as a matter of delicacy he must leave chi subject to be dealt with by his successor. He (Mr. M. A. Taylor) had said no young Chancellor couli frame a plan so well. He had seen the Noble an 4 Learned Earl again about a month ago, and then, a l he stated, it was not his intention to originate any plan. He (Mr. M. A. Taylor) informed him he should bring the present motion before the House of Corn. mons. He concluded by moving, That this House will resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of an Act passed in the .53d of the late King, entitled an Act to facilitate the Admi nistration of Justice." Should the motion which be now made be carried, the Honourable and Learned Gentleman said, he proposed to move to limit the duration of the Bill in question to one or two years. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not see that it was necessary for the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to call for a Committee to inquire into this subject, as he seemed to have made up his mind already as to what ought to be done. He could not deny that proceedings in the Court of Chancery were attended with •considerable expense; but this was not the ground on which a Committee was called for, but the delay of which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman complained. The llon. and Learned Gentleman thought the House ought to interfere to take away one branch of the Court, which, in his judgment, iii stead of ridding the business, contributed to the de lay. He defended the Noble and Learned Lord from the imputation that he was more of a Statesman thaa a Lawyer, or that he was obliged to attend to all Cabinet Councils. From his own experience in that Court, he could declare that that part of his duty occupied very little of his time. It was well kniesir that the Lord Chancellor attended t holidays very little, and that during the greater part of all the v,- cations. he attended to hear and dispatch all kip ds of business that can be brought before him. He coy.. tended that these were no such arrears of causes is Chancery ; though he admitted chit the Lord Chan cellor was as much occupied as he was before the establishment of the Vice•ChancelloCs Court. la 1821, the Lord Chancellor heard 103 bankrupt pe titions, and 418 motions, which were in fact causes each of them. In the sanie year he heard eight causes, six exceptions, five pleas and demurrers, petitions, and 24.5 lunatic 1 etitions. In the whole year he dispatched 890 matters of all kinds. LI I%.:Zri, they were 1015; and, in 1819, they were iOll. la ten years before the establishment of the Vice-Chas. cellor's Court the House of Lords heard 193 rippeah; and in the last ten years they had heard 121. It was true that the number of appeals had greatly increased from Scotland, and this as as the great cause of the increase of business in the House of Loads. He con tended that the Hon. and Leitrim.' Gentleman had made out no case for breaking up the Vice-Chancel lor's Court. Last year he wa, for sweeping aa ay the Chancery, the Roll,, and the Vice-Chancery, and new modelling them altogether. He then wished to have the Lord Chancellor confined to the House of Lords entirely ; and he had no doubt that next year he would come forward with a new proposition. He trusted that he had shewn that the Chancellor ha l not withdrawn himself from the Court of Chancery since the establishment of the Vice Chancell,r's Court ; and that in fact he had done more since that time..— It was not for him to apologize for any delays which many accused the Lord Chancellor of; but all who knew the Court of Chancery must know that it pro ceeded from a conscientious desire to render equity. The House would see that no case had been made out for this motion, therefore he would oppose it. Mr. J. WILLIAMS said, that no disrespect was intended, by the motion, of the Learned Lord. He, himself, had no experience of the Noble Lord, ex cept when he filled the highly ambiguous situation of a Party and a Judge. The result o f - the appoint ment of a Vice-Chancellor, had been a great increase of expense to the suitors, from the multiplication of Appeals. In the course of nine years, the Vice- Chancellor had; decided 261 Bankrupt cases more than his Illustrious Head. In the decision of causes generally, the number decided in the Vice-Chancel for's Court, had been in the proportion of ten to one. At the present moment, there were 109 Appeals to the Court of Chancery. The creation of the Vice- Chancellor's Court had increased those evils of the Court of Chancery that had been so long complained of. He should vote for the motion. Mr. HORACE TWISS said, that all the reasons now advanced against the Vice-Chancellor's Bill had been anticipated at the time when that Bill was first brought forward, but which were not then considered powerful enough to prevent the House from adopting it. He Contended that it was false in argument to say, that by the return before them the Lord Chan cellor had Only disposed of 53 causes in a year.— There were other matters which might properly be called causes. Since the erection of the Vice-Chan cellor's Court, the entire number of matters disposed of by the Lord Chancellor was 11,320, and those dis posed of before the Vice-Chancellor, 17,881. Upon the first day of the present year there remained in ar rear in the Vice-Chancellor's Court 320 matters; and in that of the Lord Chancellor's 164. Of these, the number of causes amounted to the overwhelming mul titude of two. The appointment of the Vice-Chan cellor's Court had reduced the arrear of causes to less than half. He therefore saw no reason for carrying ' this restless activity of change, so much the rage of the day, into the highest Courts of Law in the realm ---(Hear, hear).—ln a great Judge, they were not only to look at the number of causes dismissed within a year; they were to look also to the effect of his judgments, in the way of precedent, upon the future ' administration of the laws—(Hear,hear). He would venture to say, that when.the decisions of the .present Lord High Chancellor were consulted by future , ~..., • . > clause, and in tbaek was Uoi stated reversionary fib-, rl s li t i t btmsttt " ill *lt of a Ireelnic___„rf Core, he .1 Proceeding at th Oiler a dor opts teat dew :crest had been-sold, opthat their Lozdships might le- . 0 ,71- 4 .,, bo ome d = E l m ~- is w"" so " 1 " 1- dispose of the cat Nirdiraw ,• _the gislate on the subject with aperfectly (dear mind. The Wood itAcQUellt, tion. Member thus, as the Vice retrospective clause would only destroy rights which for.Abisdem woad statetim pole which be leatkines Lord Chancellor were never intended to exist—rights of a dishonour- ittdeced to mike this sedsal . to tae from his d Mr. HUMS said, that &byres a *titles the Ham blvvobv , able nature, and of immoral policy, whilst it would ~,a , b y no means enti t led —.. whi now occui to put. remove the apprehensions and confirm the happiness Colonel MACQUICEN said, that, as far as he was concerned also relieve him f of virtuous families, and through them the morals Ise Colonel of the Regiment which had been alluded to,he could of the Bankruptc: - t_ _have no objection to give every information in his power. the House the imi HOUSE OF COMMONS. The committal of the Scotch Juries Bill was postponed until to.mortow. _ _ __. . Mr. CURWEN presented a Petition from Robert Wood, Esq. late a Lieutenant-Colonel in the Army, praying some com pensation fur services rendered to the Army. Lord PA L MERSTON said, the statement of the Petitioner was untrue. He was a defaulter to the amount of £BOOO ; his cornmis.ion had been sold, and the motley in the hands of his agents seized towards making good this sum ; but the money raised was cot more than 4.4700, so that he was still a debtor to the Public in £3.300 ; and it was only on account of his circum stances that the claim had not been enforced. _ Mr. LEN NA Itll spoke in favour of the Petitioner's claim. The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table; but _ Lord PA LMLItST()N resisted the motion that it be printed, on the ground that the Petition had statcd that which was un founded in fact. _ _ _ Colonel DAVIES said the practice resorted to in this case was a part of the system of discharging Officers from the ser vice without a Court Martial, and he should bring the subject under the notice of the House. _ __ _ _ Mr. HUSK ISSON said, he was old enough to recollect the Petitioner being a Member of that Houue, and certainly he constantly supported the Administration of the day. This was when Mr. Wyadkam was Secretary at •War ; and it was not to be supposed that that Administration had wantonly taken away the commission of one of their supporters. Mr. HUME supported the Petition. Mr. 11. G. BENNET said, the printing of Petitions had ori ginally been considered u a matter of right. He cautioned the House not to adopt the new doctrine of the Noble Lord, which would have the effect of gagging the People. Lord PA LM ELISION said, that still assuring the House that the Petition contained an untrue statement, he would nut give the Holm the trouble of dividing on the question. Mr. WYNN said the printing of Petitions was entirely dis cretionary in the house. The Petition was then ordered to be printed. Mr. BYNG moved for leave to bring in a Bill to authorize the pulling down of Highgate Chapel, and erecting another in its stead. Mr. Alderman Woos opposed, and Sir James GILAHAM sup ported the Motion. A conversation of some length followed between some Hon. Members, in the course of which Mr. WITHIZZLI, Mr. Punta Mmes. Dr. L1,13111140(0N, Sir JAMES MACKINTOSB, and Mr. Ser. jeant Oms Low supported, and Mr. Hums, Mr. Aazacaomay, Mr. C. CALVIULT, Sir R. WILSON, Mr. RrcAano, the ATTOSWiIr.• Garisartz., and Sir JOHN NaWPORT opposed it. The House then divided, when there appeared—Por the Mo• don, 57; Against it, 2n--Majority, 28. Mr. LYTTLETON presented a Petition from the Proprietor of a Salt Pit in Chester, complaining of the retention of the Ss. Duty on Salt.—Ordered to lie on the table and be printed. Mr. ABRRCROM BY gave notice, that he should to-morrow move for copies of the proceedings in the Scottish Courts be tween Alexander and Borthwick, and of the Criminal Proceed. lop instituted against Bombe/la. YZONANItY. Mr. HUME, after referring to the Ammon made to the different Yeomanry Corps, moved for 'Returns of the Ciiims made by those of Bedford, Backs, Emu, London, and Devon, within the but year. Ik. DAWSON opposed the models. The regulatiensaffeet ing the Yeomanry were general, sad the selection of particular districts appeared to convey a eensure upon them. • Captain DUMMY tisdarell his Woad= gf voting for