Star. — London, England, 1831-02-23 00:00:00

131 PERI A L PA RL lAIII EN T. HOUSE OF 1761 — IDS, FEB. 22. Lon. • KING presented petitions from persons who had assembled at Blackfiiars-road, and from several places in Ireland and ' er heDi ti tint is a ra ' ying for an alteration of the tithe system. 701:he3;:c3,11te'or-,Leprof GLOUCESTER present a pettion fr fi nm om the C ity of aping for Parliamentary Reform. c Duke of WELLINGTON presen ted a pet iti on eerts mer aernit's in Edinburgh, holding property in the Il'est Indies, praying that 0 'measure of negro emancipation should be adopu d until the amonnt of . s demnity• due to the planters should be ascertained. • Lord FARNHAM presented a petition from two parishes in Wexford, . 13 1".11i: ; for a r:peal of the Union. The noble lord presented other pe ttions 11 . 091 Ireland, praying that theparliament should sit in Dublin aerr three years. He (Lord Farnham should certainly be in favour of 4 a; a plan, it practicable, but he few it was not. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY presented a petition from Bai lin Ireland, in favour of Parliamentary Reform. The noble l ' ad " tool: the opportunity of declaring that he could not view the in lotion of ministers to bring forward a measure of Parliamentary Re goat, in the present state of agitation in which men's minds were in and in the obviously perilous circumstances t his country and abroad, rat this country and Europe, without considerable apprehension. He as s c r opinion• that some measure of Reform was wanted, and might be ilia:eel from the general feeling In its favour; but then he wished it were pcssible for ministers to pause ere they proceeded further at pre appeal to the people was the beginning of the first French re relation, and the present ire thought much more dangerous, because it rats so much more seductive. He hoped he should hear something sa rifactory front the noble and learned lord on the woolsack. herd WYNFORD presented a petition from Joseph Harrington, of North-street, Westminster, praying for a Reform of the Court of t sorcery. The LORD CHANCELLOR, for the satisfaction of the noble mar. via, repeated what he had before stated, viz. that a measure of reform had been prepared which had the unanimous concurrence of the mem bers of the Cabinet, and he believed would be found deserving of the couture:lce and support of the country. He certainly had also stated, that the measure would have his Majesty's concurrence, not with any car to influence the votes of members, which would be most improper gad unparliamentary, but merely as an assurance of that which, from the Ministers bringing forward a measure of this kind, might be as a matter of course. T:ie Marquis of LONDONDERRY explained. The above petitions were severally read, and ordered to lie on the CHANCERY REFORMS. The LORD CHANCELLOR said that he was well aware that in a:empting the task of correcting the enormous evil of the system of Chancery Judicature, he should expose himself to the imputation of paiessing no inconsiderable share of presumption. He cared not for that. die had a double duty to perform as a member of the legislature and pre siding judge of the caurt which needed reform, and that duty he would I.3rlobly perform. He knew that many men of greater ability and :::doubted integrity had sat in the Court of Chancery for many years without attempting to remedy the evils of the Court. The answer vhich these eminent individuals made to this charge was, that they went tato the Court aware of its evils, and bent upon reform ; but that they scam became so entangled in the thickly intertwining roots of error, that they lingered on to the end of their term. With this warning before has eyes. there could be no palliation for him if he were to delay entering upon that course of reformation, which, if he further delayed doing, there was danger, according to the custom of the Court, of his pompons hog altogether. Already he began to feel the difficulty of accomplish ing those reforms which he was bent upon. As soon as he entered it, the atmosphere which had affected others had begun to affect hint. He felt as though he was already taking root in the soil—entanglement his feet on every side. Vix prece Anita, torpor gravis alligat artus : Mollie cinguntur tenui prascordia libro. frondem mines, in Tamers brachia crescunt : Pea modo tam velox pigris radicibus beret Ora cacumen obit : remanet nitor unus in ills. He would not waste any time in talking about the delays or the expenses of the Court, which he hoped their Lordships would never feel. Merely begging their Lordships not to think so harshly of the Chancery Court and Chancery Lawyers and their proceedings as they were described to be, but to believe that, as in other Courts in the lower regions, they were not all so black as they were painted—(a laugh)— he would proceed at once to submit the measures of amendment which he had prepared. The first quality of every such change was that it should be sate. No change was more easy to retrace one's steps in than a change in the laws or practice of a Court. It was totally dif ferent where laws affecting the property, lives, or liberties of a com munity were concerned. In that case, if they unsettled the rule, and again restored it, great mischief must be done. If they placed upon a good footing the tribunals of the country, the other parts of its judicature became gradually but certainly amended and improved by the course of practice. How many laws of the best description in this country did they not owe to that part of the structure of our Courts known as the trial by jury; and this, it would be observed, WAS not a law, but merely a mode of administering the laws. One of the chief amendments he should seek to accomplish in Chancery practice was the substitution of viva sore for affidavit evidence.—{Hear.) He need scarcely dwell upon the superiority of this mode of evidence. In Courts of Common Law they had the advantage of hearing the first answer be. fore the second question was put ; and the cross-examining Counsel had the advantage of heating the examination in chief, and the re-examiner the advantage of hearing the cross-examination. But nothing of this kind was the case in Chancery. The answer was upon oath, that the Bill was not, anti could not, although the answer might, be lead in eel ,!ace in a Court of Common Law. The bill was generally the OSID• ps,ition of the pleader. Now the evidence, which, although it was noise important in Chancery proceedings as in Common Law suits, yet formed very material part of the can—the evidence was taken as it were in the lark. Interroga:ories were drawn by counsel upon the case. These were put to the witness by the master, but neither counsel nor party were present. There was also a sort of cross-examination in the form of cross mierrogatories, but these were almost nugatory for the purposes of evi dence, and were generally evaded. It was also to be remarked, that in this mode of taking evidence they lost the advantage of the witness being examined in the presence of the judge who tried. (Hew.) The next point to which he would advert, and which was one of the princi ples upon which he rated his measures of reform, was that judges, and 311 who acted in the judicial capacity, having power to prolong or expo- I due the suits which came before them, should be paid by a fixed seamy I rather than by fees. (Hear.) For the reasons at which he had! alerely glanced, it must be obvious that nothing could more tend to 1;h the characters of judges as they should be above the suspicion of corruption, the importance of which he need not descant upon.— These were the principles upon which his measures were to be founded, and they would deserve to stand or fall, according as the principles themselves were good, or as the measures should be in confor mity with the principles. He could not proceed fur:her into his sub ject without adverting to the question of Lunacy. Their lordships well brew that the law vested the care of lunatics in the King, and his Ma-, j6ty had been advised, very properly. for many centuries past, to dela I sate this care to the highest judicial authority in the kingdom. Thal Great Seal had now the care of lunatics, and a most painful charge it was. There were about 400 Chancery lunatics, and the annual ex., penditure of these was 160,0001. being about half their incomes. Now, here there wad so large an expenditure of property, there ought to be a sufficient supervision, which there was not at present. He proposed, therefore, to constitute a Board of Supervision, or rather a General Vi siting Committee, in place of the private Committees at present em ployed, sod who might have an interest in keeping the patient in a state of insanity, or in a state of durance when recovered from their malady. He had already, upon a former evening, stated what his feel :ng was in this respect, and the nature of the measure he desired to see effected. He would nut, therefore, dwell longer upon this topic than to say, that a learned antiquary had lately discovered an instru ment which distinctly proved that there was formerly such an officer as a Judicial Physician. His proposition, therefore, with regard to him was, not to create bet to revive this office. The Noble and Learned Lord next proceeded to notice the state of the Bankruptcy Tribunals. His objections to the Bankrupt Adjudication were chiefly pointed to the Bankrupt Commissioners. His objection to them was that they sure too numerous that they were not adequate to the discharge of their duties. He would not be guilty of the gross flattery to his predecessors of saying that they had upon all occasions selected those who were the hest qualified by age, experience, and ability, fee the office of Commissioners. He did not mean to say he was a bit better than his predecessors, but be was at least desirous of dispose leasing himself of the power of making appointments. There were lista of Commissioners, making a body of seventy gentlemen in all. acting in the capacity of judges upon a very difficult and intricate branch of the law. He proposed not to cut down the number of the Lists, or to reduce the number of Commissioners upon each ; but, by a simple, short measure, to sweep them all away.--(A laugh.).—When the country was in want of real Reform, he would not be guilty of disappointing the just expectations of the sufferers by compromising on half measures. It was his boast to be called a timid Reforms* by all with whom he was associated in the cause of Reform. In such eases lie thought tim-'..ty was wisdom. He was not proposing to interfere with any vested interests; the words retrenchment, reform, abolition, nor any such words, should be used in his MIL He should simply require that their Lordships should give to him the power to his commissions where he pleased, and he would take care to send no; more to the f ourteen li sts.— (A laugh.)--He did not, however, propose dismiss those seventy gentlemen without compensation. In the Public service that was always bad economy. He did not, however, propose to take any thing from the public; they should know nothing about it. It would come out of a fund which would fall' k Pon the suitors for some time to come, although the whole expenses ` Olll 4l be much less to the suitor genteelly ; and in about ten years, be filtered, the commissioners would be all in good practice, and no longer itnsre.ceipt of any compensation allowance. The compensation principle though t a good and necessary one upon public grounds • and besides, of st it wou o i prevent a warm of idle drones from being converted into a nest Bing — hornets . (A laugh.) In place of those seventy eommisaion era, he proposed to have one court, in which three chief judges should sit and determine all cases ; ten judges, however, being the number in all whom he should propose to substitute for the fourteen lists. As to appeals from them, he would propose to limit the power of appeal, excepting upon points of law. At present the vice-chancellor had two months of his time every year occupied in bearing bankrupt exceptions, &c. The noble and learned lord read from *published work a strong condemnation of the bankruptcy system, and of the nefarious practices committed under it, from the mouth of Lord Eldon. That noble and learned lord designated bank rupt commissions generally as joint stock partnerships. This was at the commencement of his career, and no doubt his lordship would have carried his views of reforming these abuses into effect, if he had not hand the soil of the Court into which he had come too clinging, and tie climate altogether averse to the growth of reform. (A laugh) His mat point of reform referred to the Masters' Office. Formerly the Masters bad the management of the funds of the suitors; hut the both Sea Bubble having made six or seven of the Masters bankrupts with all their suitors' funds, that branch of the practice was amsmasa. Still, however, there were great abuses to amend. He posileslnely referred to the practice of paying by fees. Ile proposed M lake that away, and to have the ;masters paid by salaries. Ps:dol ls* be was determined to make war upon the system of gratuities. These gratuities were taken by the Masters' clerks, and were called ex pedition money. But in point of fact all such money was neither more nor less than that very homely thing called a bribe. So long as he held his present office no such money should be taken. The Masters found it difficult to break a long existing practice, but it was his (the Lord Chancellor's) duty to see that the practice was broken, and he would not shrink from it. When it was recollected that the clerks had the task of taxing the solicitors' bill when the suit was over, their Lordships might happen to see a gleam of light upon the darkness of Southamp ton-buildings, and the system of gratuity Hear, hear, hear.) — The object of this reform would be to make the Masters' business be conducted in public; that evidence should be taken viva twee, in stead of being taken in the dark by interrogatories. At a further stage of the reform which he had in view, he might be enabled to incorporate the jury system in one manner or degree with the Masters' office. By this arrangement in the Matters' office, and causing the Master to take some portion of that work which was performed by the Vice-Chan cellor, added to the arrangement with respect to the bankruptcy depart. ment, he was in hopes that in a short time the Court of Chancery might conduct its whole business by its ancient tribunals of Chan. cellor and Master of the Rolls, without the aid of the Vice-Chancellor at all. The Master of the Rolls, of whom he could never speak with out feelings of the highest admiration and respect for his talents, great learning, and great industry, had got through all his arrears of busi ness. He (the Lord Chancellor) was in hopes that he should be able, in the present session of his Court, to get through all his wears. He was decidedly of opinion that a Conveyancing Master should be added to the List of Masters, in order to make that body complete for the func tions which the suitors had a right to expect at their hands. He had almost forgotten to mention that he designed amending the system of bankruptcy as regarded the appointment of assignees. At present the assignees were chosen by the parties; he proposed they should be ap pointed by the court. And for that purpose he proposed that a list of persons of the highest respectability and experience in the City of London should be made out, to serve the office of assignees in all cases. He also proposed to abolish the many expensive sinecure offices connected with the Court of Chancery. kor instance, the Re gistrars and the Patentee of Bankrupts. The latter was held by the Rev. Mr. Thurlow, and for a pure sinecure he received upwards of 10,0001. a year. One of the Registrar's offices was formerly held by one Mrs. Eleanor Gwynn, otherwise Nell Gwynn (A laugh.) How she performed her task he knew not. He hoped she did not go into Court to perform it. These offices ought to go. He would have regard to vested interests, and gladly offer to the incumbents a retiring pension. But then this must not be exorbitant. He could not but think that a retiring pension equal to that which a Lord Chief Justice and Lord Chancellor received sufficient for the holder of a mere sinecure.— The holder of that sinecure should recollect that those with whom he was classed as to the amount of his retiring pension had worked hard in their offices--had given up professional emoluments for an office in too many instances precarious. He did not mean to say it was so now. He ca. mainly could nor have afforded to take it if it had been. Nor would he, if be thought he was to go out next year, encounter the task and ob loquy of all these reforms. A man with such an insecurity about him would not be disposed to do as the churchwardens did, who woe only in for a year, and took care during that time to make friends of the people by lavishly administering the funds for the poor. He wished it therefore to be distinctly understood that he .tpprchended no instability of office in entering upon the career of reform before him. He had now made their lordships acquainted with the nature of the measures which he had to propose. He had much further reform behind ; but he thought it safer to go upon a prudent experimental course in the first instance. He might, however, mention that the Privy Council as a Court of Appeal was a mere mockery. Our seventy millions of sub jects in India had sent only six appeal cases over here to the Privy Council, and these he believed remained undisposed of. There must be the authority of dignity and understanding about a judicial system, or it would never be recognised by the country over which it presided. He could only say that ha had cut away a great deal of patronage in his proposed reforms. He had maul every thing to the great object he had in view, viz. :—Benefictally Se reform the judicial system of the country. The saving of expuuus which he should effect pa annum would be 73,0001.—(Hear, hear.)—. He called upon their lordships for their assistance. He bad done all he could to have his plans corrected if wrong. He had invited the strictest scrutiny, with a view to prove the deficiency of his plans if possible. He had, however, met with the most fiatterhag encourage ment from many quarters most competent to judge. True it was that many upbraided him as a rash reformer, an enemy to his country. They might as well call a man who was ready to die in the last ditch in defence of his country, an enemy to that country, as style him, because he sought to crush conspiracies against the purity of justice, eradicate the seeds of corruption, and open wide the portals of our ancient Constitution to all who sought *dints . sion, an enemy to the institutions of his country. He had accepted an office from which he bad taken away many of its emoluments ; and he must frankly state to their lordships that he was a poor man, and he i never would have taken upon himself the burthen of a peerage upon an I expectancy so inadequate as the retiring pension of his office. (Hear.) This was the only observation he should make upon the subject. ( Hear.) The noble and learned Lord, in conclusion, presented the first of three I measures for the reform of the Court of Chancery. Lord LYNDHURST asked when the noble and learned lord in tended to proceed with the discussion of these measures ? The LORD CHANCELLOR said he would take care to consult the convenience of the noble and learned lord in appointing a day for the discussion of the The bill was then read a first time, and the house adjourned at 20 minutes past nine o'clock• HOUSE OF COMMONS. The House proceeded to ballot for election committees to try the pe titions complaining of undue elections for the city of Oxford, the bo rough of Taunton, and the borough of Carrickfergus. The members of the respective committees were afterwards sworn at the table. Sir R. INGLIS moved that the report of the committee on the Car rickfergus petition, stating that fourteen out of the thirty-six names affixed to the petition were forgeries, be read. The report was accord ingly read by theclerk. Sir R. INGLIS moved that the House do agree in the Report of the committee. Lout ALTBORP said as an EleetionCommittee had been appointed to try the merits of the election, he thought it might be u well to delay any proceedings on the report of the committee, who had merely cu. mined whether the names signed to the petition were forgeries, till the election committee should make their report. Sir R. PEEL thought as the Committee had decided that the names were forgeries, the house might confine that finding, and leave the question of the validity of the election to be alone considered by the election committee. Mr. W. WYNN thought it would be better to postpone any I further proceeding till Members had an opportunity of looking at the evidence. Mr. O'CONNELL said there was only circumstantial evidence at present before the house, and hoped the matter would be allowed to stand over. The debate was then adjourned to this day fortnight. ZWIGZATION. Lord HOWICIE said be rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to facilitate emigration. It was notorious that there was a surplus population both in this country and Ireland ; that there was a much grader quantity of labour in the market than there was an efficient demand for ; and that in consequence the condition of the labourer was greatly deteriorated, his wages being reduced much below what was sufficient for the comfortable support of himself and family. The causes of this deteriorated state of the labouring population, whe ther it arose from the existence, as some supposed, of the poor laws, or from their abuse, as was supposed by others, he did not mean at present to inquire. The feet was notorious, and that was sufficient ' to induce the House to endeavour to apply a remedy. The dif ference between the state of this country and of our colonies in this respect was very crating. In Australia the wages of the la bourer was ss. a-day, and those who possessed superior skill, received a much higher rate .1 a wheeelwright had 15s. a-day. In Canada wages •ere not quite so high. but still the wages of the labourer was Se 9d a day. In this country every new labourer that came into it was r as an enemy in disguise, while in the colonies his arrival was a l e r t as an addition to their happiness. The bill he proposed to ask leave to bring in was intended to regulate and nietbodise that emigration which, in consequence of the difference in the rates of wages between this country and the colonies, has been for a considerable time going on.— It was not intended to throw any part of the expense, with which emi gration, under the provisions of the biU, would be attended, on the public. (Hear, hear.) The intention was to allow parishes to raise money foe the purpose of enabling such of their unemployed labourers as were willing to emigrate, on the agreement of two-thirds of the rate payers for that purpose ; the money to be repaid out of the rate In ten years. Hi knew it was an objection likely to be made to the bin that it did not contain any enactments distinctly applicable to Ireland ; bat though that was the ease, th! lAndown-rs of irelan.l might, by their own volun:ary so bscriptiut:s, eaahle t :eir surplus la bourers to emigrate under the provisions of the bill ; and in tin. prove the condition of their labourers, and if the relief so obtained was not found to improve the condition of the Irish labourer, the act might be extended to Ireland; but he was sure the house would see the pro. priety of proceeding with due caution in a matter of such great in:. ponance. The effect of the bill on the condition of the surplus labourers of England would be to take those labourers who are now working or. the roads, tar whatever the overseens please to give them and remove them with their own consent, to a country where it must be their own fault if they did not speedily become landowners ; an advantage for which it was but reasonable that they should give up any claim for relief in England, in the very improbable event of their ever returning to this country—an event which, he was confident, could never occur, but by their own misconduct. It might, perhaps, be thought, that if emigra tion was to take place on an extended scale from this country the colonies might be overstocked with labour. Of this he thought there was no danger in our North American colonies, as there was unappropriated 22,000,000 of acres, which would supply au immense demand for labour. It was proved, by ample experiments. that an emigrant from England, his wife, and two children, could be established on this land as a landholder, in comfortable circumstances, at an ex pense of 861. and to maintain such a family in h ngland costs 251 a-year. He was of opinion that it would not be expedient to establish the emigrant as a landowner, independent of his own exer. Lions; but that it might be more conducive to his own happiness to allow him to raise himself from the condition of a labourer to that of a landowner, which, by his own exertions, he could do in a single year. It appeared by returns made by the Commissionere in Canada in the year 1827, 10,000 arrived there; and in 1830 the number increased to 28,000 without at all overstocking the labour market, and it was stated that from thirty to forty thousand labourers anomaly could be fully occupied. The pauper emigrants of 1829, at the close of 1830, were all comfortably settled as landowners; and it appeared that their in. creasing number had by no means diminished the means of employ ment. The noble lord here read • letter from the agents of the Ca. nada Company, written from Canada. (Hear, hear, hear.) The let ter stated that there was ample employment for all the la bourers that came out,and that in the harvest they got whatever wages their own conscience allowed them to ask. This, however, continued but a few weeks : their constant wages, however, were so good, that in one year they were enabled to become landowners, and thus to in crease the demand for labout ers, being themselves able to give employ ment to others. The only danger that it appeared necessary to guard against was one not very likely to occur—that was, a temporary ex cess of labour in the market, from a sudden influx of emigrants. To guard against this p• sonde evil, it would be provided that no labourer should be taken out without sufficient fonds being raised on his ac count, not only for the payment of his passage, but for the payment of his wages for some time after his arrival, should it be neces sary, to enable him to cultivate land for himself, to prevent the effect of too much competition in the labour market. Taking the rate of his , wages at 2s. 6.1. a day, this would amount to 451. 12s. 6d. for the year, and the cost of his passage for himself, and wife, and two children, 101. which would make a total of 551. 12s. M. little more than the cost of two years' support for himself and family at home. But be had every reason to believe that no occasion would arise in which it would be ne cessary to expend so much as a year's wages in establishing the emigrant and his family. I however confidently he felt that the means existed in Canada of providing the emigrants with labour, he should not propose emigration under any circumstances that did not afford an absolute certainty that the condition of the labourer would be greatly im proved, and that he could not become distressed in Canada. He had hopes, that when the plan was put into full operation, this country would only be put to the expense of the labourer's passage to the co. lony. (Hear.) New South Wales and Van Diemen's Lendable' offered great inducements to emigration. It was true, the voyage was long, and the expense of the passage proportionably great; but the demand for labour in each colony was great in propoolon, and the wages, in consequence, sufficiently high to repay the advance necessary to send out labourers. Directions had been given to the governors of those colonies to inquire particularly, and to report fully on their capacity for advantageously receiving voluntary emigrants. He was confident from all, that great relief would be afforded to the labouring poor of this country by a well regulated system of emigration.— It would be seen that he had only detailed to the house the eon. elusions come to by others who had fully considered the subject. It was to a Right Honourable Friend of his, not now a Member of that House—it was to the persevering exertions of Mr. Wilmot Horton— that the country was indebted fur having this great means of relief for the distress under which the labouring poor were suffering, opened to their view.—( Hear, hear.) To Mr. W. Horton belonged the merit of the plan of relief.—(Hear, hear.) His Right Honourable Friend bore up against neglect and indifference—and what was found still more difficult to support, against ridicule and derision ; he felt confident, however, in the soundness of his views, and with nnshrinking benevol ence he persevered. in spite of every obstacle, overcame every difficulty. convinced almost all who attended to the subject, of the justice of his conclusions, and no doubt could be entertained that by the adop tion of his proposals for the remedy of the distress of the labouring poor, not only the emigrants but the labourers at home would be greatly buns. fited. Mr. Wilmot Horton would justly be regarded as the benefaelee of the poor and of his country.—(Great cheering.) The Hoseembie Member for St. Alban's and the Canada Company had bait eilliod very valuable suggestions on emigration—but certainly the assn et having, by persevering application under great discouragenesst, pea duced the present conviction in the public mind of its utility, belonged to Mr. W. Horton.—(lmmense cheering) The Noble Lord concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to facilitate emigration to his Majesty's foreign possessions. Sir GEORGE MURRAY said he wished the noble lord the most ample success in his measure, it being one of the greatest importance to the colonies, and which would prose most beneficial to the mother country. The right hon. gent. 11'ilmot Horton, was justly entitled to all the praise that had been given him by the noble lord, as the origins. tor of the measure. The hon. baronet then proceeded to state, mat al. though - he approved of the principle which the measure embraced, be did not approve of the plan in one particular, that Commissioners should be appointed at large salaries to carry the plan into effect. It was on this account that he (Sir G. Murray) had recommended the ser vices of Mr. Richards, &gentleman well conversant with North America, who hail gone there some time ago and had made a favourable report on the subject. He (Sir G. Murray) disapproved of the abuse of land that had taken place in the colonies in giving away large portions in grants. lie was opposed to holding out any inducement in pecuniary bounty to those who might be entrusted to the direction ; a medium policy would be the moat desirable, and that government should not interfere too much, for he thought they might be apt to be deceived by misrepresentations. He was much inclined to say something regarding the proposed timber duty, but he was convinced that this was not the proper time fur doing so, and he would on that account defer his remarks on that subject : but he could not refrain from saying, that he considered he timber trade of Canada as a vital point with the colony, as it would afford in stant employment for the emigrants as soon as they arrived thither. The hon. member concluded with repeating his wannest wishes for the sue cess of the measure. _ _ Mr. TENNANT said, while he gave the right hoe. gentleman who had projected the measure every credit for his good intention and inde fatigable exertions, he (Mr. Tennant) must say that he dissented from him in every thing connected with his proposed measure, except in the necessity of emigration. And although he said P.O, and admitted the necessity of emigration, yet he ass not prepared to say that it would be prudent to launch into any increase of taxation to carry it into effect ; and the increase of expense would be found to be much more than was at present anticipated. By the plan that had previously been proposed, one-third of the rate payers anti landlords was to he em powered to contract a debt sufficient for the expense of sending off the emigrants, and that that debt was to be liquidated within ten years. He contended that the surplus population would continue to increase during that ten years in the same proportion as it had done before ; sad during that period the parish would be burdened with the interest of the borrowed money, and they would then require to resort to the same means *Ptah, to get rid of their newly-accumulated surplus population, Po that in time the land might become burdened with these encum. bunco; to an alarming extent; and another ultimate consevence would be, that the diottess thus entailed would be the means of en in. creased pauper population. He had a plan 'o present which could be carried into practix without any expense to the parishes. (Hear.) He would willingly lay in.fore the howe his plan on the sound principle of einigration; but he was prepateti to say that he could not, in less than two or three hours, explain time plar.--which he considered the em:. pinion should be conducted upon. He would beg that the noble lord should afford him time to bring forward a motion to inquire into this theory of emigration. To give him an opportunity to submit to the house his system of colonization, (he called it his system. because lie wished to be understood that it was distinct from the systems of a I others.)—only so much of it as would enable hint to procure a majority. He hoped that the noble lord would afford him that opportuni•y by al lowing the subject to be brotrzlit before • committee. Mr. JA3I ES I3RATT.4N disapproved of a Committee being ap pointed on the measure, and he was opposed to sending away what was tamed the superabundant population by emigration. He would recom. mend rather that they should be relieved at home, which could be dons with equal profit, and at no greater expense. He did not wish to oppose emigration, but he objected to placing the poor in that situation that ibey must either go abroad or starve at home. There was no necessity for this compulsory emigration so long as we had labour for them at home. In Ireland there was abundance of uncultivated land, and emigration ' was consequently not called for there, and he was confident that Eng land was in the same situation. Lord A LTHORP in explanation said, that it was intended by the MINIM only to relieve such parishes of England who had a real surplus population ; but that with regard to Ireland. where there was room for employment to afford them the requisite capital by a large loan. The principle which the measure was intendedto accomplish was, toincraase the demand for labour at h. me, and to increase the supply of lobo.. in the colonies. He did not consider that the timber du:y would disturb the mimeos of the plan, at. the timber trade was not so much the object in view as the cultivation of land. It formed no part of the measure to hare commissioners at large salaries employed. The Increase of expense could only exist for two or three years on the ririshets. and ss by a:loring ' , its measure, and alleviating the ressute of the poor lass, his lordship did not se? any nt..ans practicable to bring the pa= rashes a mitigation of their burdens. He did not see any dshger that could stise from the measure being adopted. Sir G. MURRAY and Mr. TENNANT explained. Mr. SA I)LLR said, that wheu he traced the bill from its soarer, and all the utir.tate consequences that would follow, no terms that lie ws , toaster of were sufficient to express his objections to it. It w.oild destroy tile system of our society. and would be entailing a lastim?, debt on the country. Were we, ere yet the cheering which had been heard in that house had scarcely ceased, that hailed the announcement of the boasted increasing prosperity of the country. to be called tipoa to support a measure,which was to banish from their native shores the sources tram which alone that prosperi could ever he rendered permanent. We were not abo u t to sen d away the lame, the eh - crepid, or the aged and infirm, but to send away that part of the population with wit ch this country could not dispense, while we stste.t exist by their labour, and yet there were one-third of the population unemployed. He had attached no importance to the cry that had beet, set up 10)(111: the surplus population; it had often existed before, even in barbarous countries, where the population was so much more than i:i this country ; nor was it the first time it had been heard in England. The same cry had existed in Ragland centuries ago. Many Mos:riot:4 persons of the first celebrity had imbibed the erroneous notiotte at different periods; and it had fallen to the highest authority of his day, the philosopher of his time, Lord Bacon. to declare i:s that very house, that he attributed the then existing distress the people to be occasioned by a superabundiu.t population. Tit.? Iti,,lit Honourable Secretary for thy Colonial Department had said, that there were twenty.one million acres of land in sterility in Canada, but he (Mr. Sadler) was sure that he wculd find in the United King. dons 30.0110,000 acres of land uncultivated at home • and if a scheme of colonization must be resorted to, let it be adopted at Non-, where the capital would be employed with safety and have a profitab . .. return. It "as increase of population alone that could bring an inert a•te of cultivation, in which consisted the wealth of a country. The mea sure was one of the nio-t unpopular nature in itself, as if seeming to despise the moat valuable and industrious of our population. 111- would call upon those who raised the cry to prove where was the rednn. dance of population. He would defy them to prove it. He would not apply for his contradiction to the doctrines of philosophers of politi. cal economy—lie would apply to the more tangible illustration of the existing state of common society. The Hon. Member here re capitulated a portion of the evidence that had been given before a Coot:. mittce fomerly when the same measure was under consideration ; and particularly noted the words of a witness whi was well versant in wh political economists designated the market of a labour, and he had de. Blared that in hatvest there was a scarcity of labourers, but in winter I there were plenty. It was evident then, that if the poor in winter were to be thus disposed of, that their want would be felt in harvest ; and fin this purpose we were called upon to burden the poor teat, and, besides, to banish the poor, who, however humble might be their station, their country was, and ought to be as dear to them, as it was to those whose interest might seem to have a greater weight. A better system of management would have alleviated the state of the poor; and if they are compelled to leave the country, they will leave it with regret ; wa will lose their loyalty, the feeling of patriotism will cease to beat, an:l it will be replaced by the grosser rancour of resentment. The triumph of the plough could far excel the triumph of the sword or spear. lie would apply, to prove that the measure was unprincipled, to the fart that emigration was invariably f.ollowed by misery. The hon. member quoted several instances, atici.nt and modern. in support of this state ment ; and with regard to the Canada', he quoted the report of a mili tat y engineer who had resided 3 years in the country, and who declared that he had never sorxti as much misery existing in his whole life at home, as he witnessed during that period among the emigrants, and that fully one-fourth of all the emigrants from Ireland had died during the first two years of their settlement. Political economists,, who had undertaken to value the labour as property, had valued the labourer at leas than nothing. The means are within our reach to relieve the distress of out labouring poor without seeking it in a distant region He had often sought an opportunity to propound to the house those means, which were not bat-W upon theoretical folly, to restore the king. don to profitable employment, of which it had been deprived by laws which have been exacta', and which have militated against the labouring poor. These mean* he would take an opportunity to propound to ti.e hewer. BARING (the son of Mr. A. Baring) said that the hon. mem. ber for Newark had when he should have addressed himself to their reason, made an ap peal to their feelings. There was not, however, in the proposed system, as in the former plans, any severing of the ties of relationship. The parents were enabled to accompany their children. The plan would be the means of dispelling the cloud which had so long hung over the country, and of relieving it from the feu of comntu. tions occasioned by distrait. 51r. WARBUkTON said that the important point was whether the happiness, wealth, and power of England would be secured by this system of forced colonization. He took at a moderate ratio the super • abundance of population to be about 200,000 souls a-year. The annual emigration was not a sixth of that number. Now, as it was proposed to ad- vance to the emigrants a sum equal to their support for 2 or 3 years, the proportion between the superabundant population at home and the capital would annually become greater, and instead of an increase of happiness, an increase of misery would be the consequence. (Hear.) If labour in the colonies was, by the want of hands, worth three or four times that in the parent country, it was worth the while of the pos aessors of land there to promote colonization. This was one of the na tutal means of colonisation, which government should allow to act, and not destroy b a fenced system. The wealth and power of the parent country woul d not be greatly increased either by the annual abstract of capital. He was not, however, for placing impediments to the emigra tion to the Canadas. For it bad this advantage, that it augmewed the power of those colonies, and accelerated their independence, for the acceleration of which this country should devoutly wish. (Hear.)— In answer to allusions which had been made to the timber trad-, .Is checking emigration, be would say, that the tonnage employed annually in the American timber trade, was 430,000 tons, an amount which could convey as many emigrants. Supposing that only half the tonnage should be employed in consequence of the duties, there would still remain an amount equal to the transport of 215,000 men, a number which fat ex ceeded that to which emigration could be carried. As to the objection that there was no means except by emigration., of affording relief, he should answer it by proposing a commutation of tithes. Mr BAILING said, that though the &Event branches of indusi: y were in a wont thriving condition now than they had been for sever. I years past, the late events in the southern part of the kingdom demon strated, amidst the general prosperity, the deplorable condition of one class—he meant that of the labourers. The cause of their distress wes want of employment, through superabundance of populatioe. He put this pimple fact to the honourable member for Newark. Many of then., after having been employed by the farmers in every thing that pos. sibly could be productive, had been tutned into the gravel pits and into the high roads. Now, the object of emigration was, by sending the peasant where there was a want of hands, to give that value too is labour of which, through competition, it was deprived of at item-e. He denied that Canada was not a comfortable country. The gre wet part of Canada was heathy and fertile. lie denied that emigration was to be forced ; the proposed bill expressly tuned that it should be voluntary. In his opinion, of all the charities made In this charitable, eountry, those who afforded the poor the means of reaching a market where their labour would be of value, c.onferreti the pea.- est. (Hear, hear, hear.) But it was said that in Ibis kingdom the re were thirty millions of waste acres on which the poor might be em. ployee!.. He should like the honourable member for Newark to pint out to him 10,000 such acres. lie belzvenl there was not one acre caps - blelf production which had not been enclosed. He could not bell. ye that if the waste acres existed, labourers would have been turned nut into the gravel pits and high raids. To answer another objection—the landownyr in the colonies eould not rnd hoc an order for colonists. But he did this, he took them term' hands alwat as fast as they were lisnd, d.— Emigration cnuld not be left to itself ; the poor knew nothing of the countries to question, and of the mans of living Vier% He contended that emigration could remove the whole surplus of superabunds.tt population. Susses, fur example, b.:d a population of 033,000. The maks between 15 and 50 might he taken a 50,G00; of wb eh the rut duo belonging to the agricsitur.l part, the only one in distress, did not exceed 25,060 He ialculated th.t a fourb of these, or 6,250 were superabundant. Nnw the roller Mon to Nonh America removed annually more than eig . .t times that number. He should only add that he trusted the Hoes, would confider with calmness and care • mea. sure which might afford a great extent of relief to the sufferings of the poor.— (Hear). Mr. SLA NEI', in answer to the menthe, for Newark, said that the question was not whether there was a general Nthintlaney of populairm. but whether there oaf, under present cireutionances, a redundancy in certain particular dt.tricts. Naw. contnittees of mat house had, year after year, come to the conclusion that inch vise toe rase in several din. triers of the south. He wished the Sussex labourers to be like the Northumbrian labourers, well paid ; to hove 14s. a week instead of 7s. 'file c..use of this difference was the haft adwiniettstion of die poor laws in Sussex, as compared w th thar adietniftration in Northum berlat.d. The object of the bill au to facilitate pita:Ares that would tend to raise ware., and to enable a man, as it ought to do, to live by the sweat of his brow. 'inc abuses of the poor laws he would not now dwell on.; they had lasted long. and their evils were manifest ; what they had to do was to provide a remedy for them. Ile was far from thinking that in even parish there was a soperabun dance of labourers; but in many places there was that superabundance; and this measure would afford the means of remedying such evil. He did not maintain that there ought to be a location of lands, wherevor three might be wastes; but he had often wondered why there had rot been a general Inclosure Act. At present an Inclosure Bill could 11. 4 be obtained foe less than 6001. or 700 L owing to the extravagant costa of agents, and those costa often prevented useful measures. If there were an amendment of these deb as. it would encourage a more pre. Tel application of capital to rural affairs. That was a benefit that. was very desirable. .As to the bill before the house, he bighly apple. dof it; for it would be the means of affording opportunities to labor-ere to get work, better wages, and eventually to Want landowuera. He eer . taint, did not think that it denerved to be stigmatized in the tray i t bed