Star. — London, England, 1817-05-10 00:00:00

from the reproach of intolerance which is brought gainst us. We shall open the door of conciliation ; we shall give liberty to our fellow.subjects, and secu rity to ourselves."( —Hear, hear I) Mr. Giterree concluded, by moving— That this Hpuse shall resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House lar the purpose of taking into its most serious con sideration the Petitions of the Roman Catholics of Groat Britain and Ireland, wit:. a view to such a final and conciliatory adjust -aurae as may lead to the peace and strength of the United King dom, and on such •bases as may best secure the stability of the Protestant Church. and give satisfaction to all classes of his Mae festy's suhjecta. . " I beg," continued Mr. Grattan, 44 just to say this—that my idea is not, in any degree whatever, to put it out of the power of this House, to insist on full aatisfacticn relative to the proffered securities, before 'they proceed to legislate—so that nothing that shall occur in the House, either now, or at any future pe riod, shall be considered operative, unless the House be perfectly satisfied that the.securitietoffered will in sure the safety of the Protestant Church and Stare." Mr. LESLIE FOSTER stated, since last Session two Petition's had been presented to the House, from . two different parties of.lrish Catholics. The one, pro fessing to accede to any securities which the House required—the other, which was much more nume rously signed, insisting on unqualified tatter emancipation., The tter had even appealed against those who had I signed the tit se mid represented them as worse than ; Orangemen. It was well known that the Veto was 110 t open to discussion at present. He would pot it to the Right Honeurable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Grattan), whether the utmost extent to which the Catholics inttnded to go was not domestic nomina tion? They would not heat of the Veto; and be un derstood that they had informed the Right Honour able Gentleman, in (Ilea instructions that they would rather remelt' in dick present dependent state than accede to the Veto--( Hear, hear.) They wese•then in no better ciresimutices with regard to securities now than thick had been berme, for all that they of fered now was a mere delusion. He would explain how• this proposal was a delusion. Domestic nomi nation of Irish Bishops was no new thing; 'the prac tice had etioed se lin, that o 'the memory of man ran not to die contrary." He would state to the House the' mode 'of electing Irish Roman Catholic Bishops. He had been •tuld, that when a Bishop died, a Conintittee rot Bishops assembled and tecom.i attended a successor to the Pope to fill the vacant See. Now the peiseu chosen wasinvafiably the coadjutor 9f the deCeased," who had been selected by Wry to as- 'list in his ecclesiastical duties. Thus then the Bishop in fact elected his successor. Was not this domestic nominatitm? But they 'were told some alteration 'was to be made; that the ratification of the choice by the Holy See was to be taken off. This might be something to them as Catholics, but to hint as a protestant it was nothing; and thus it was that they were to surrender all the securities they now enjoyed, while the Catholics were to give nothing in return but domestic nomination, which, under the circum 'stances, wits a contradiction in terms: WX3 it not then a delusioe ?—(Illar, hear.) He came next to consider the question of securities, which would be found as nugatory and unsubstantial. The Protes tants of Leland could not view without alarm' the 'spectacle of four millions of people, depend ng' for their, knowledge of our Government, of the character of this Protestant People, of their habits, manners, sodfeelings, upon a set of men, whine treatment by our ancestors, (and he deplored while he stated the, Iset,) bad aliwrated thew from. that Government, and induced an impatience of - its authority and sus picion of its measures--; (Hear, hear, hear.) The Pro - testants saw the vast nuntbcrs whose minds were sub .jected to the dritnination of a few 'Bishops. They -saw annual meetings at the College of hiaynonth to . determine the srutiments and direct the' conduct of •the great mass of the Catholics; they saw also* regu lar Synods convened to take into consideration not asnetety their ecclesiastical affairs, but to discuss ques tions which- must have the greatest influence upon their to brethren. Was not such 'a systematic con solidation of authority sufficient to excite apprelten- Aioitsia the breasts of the Protestants, if they should .be left: without those safeguards which had been erec. • ted ill times of actual danger ? The Protestants - might expect, that after the treatment which the Ca. tholies have experienced, and the means which have • been employed to diffuse the benefits of educa tion.amcmg them, a spirit of gratitude would have sprung up and tendered them anxious to give proofs ,of Attachment t 6 their Protestant brethren. This, . 'however, was not the case ea a the contrary, they saw ;the Catholic deserting the Protestant tradesman, 're - -larding him as an enemy ; the farmer threatened *.from his possessions, and seeking safety in emigra tion ; they saw deluded'miscreants waylaying persons who bad become obnoxious to them, for the purpose , of murder, till they at length, involved in infamy and crime, atoned their misdeeds by a shameful death.— Ile spirit of the Catholic was as uncongenial, as un attached, as isolated, as it was before, and Conse quently no securities could suffice, no modificatioai now to be offered could give any advanta . g e —; (Near.) As to the Veto, so far from the damage of it is Committee tranquillising Ireland, he was - satis that it Would throw thenthote• kingdom into a fer.., *tent. The word *as well chosen to soften English prejudices, and had been 'ingeniously enough used itt the discussion, but it would be Of no service whatever ' o the Irish Protestants.. The only security which the Protestant interne c ob]d have was to be obtained by devising some means of attaching theCatholicito the English Government mid the Englisfi Religion; he meant so attached as to look with kindness on its piofessors, and join to communion with them in ste case alleles with cordiality and affection. This could may be done by the influence of the Clergy, who possessed the most absolute somroul over the minds of their followers. It was not 'necessary for him to dilate upon this part of the question, because Hon. Gentlemen Well knew that there was no pro position so hetet ul to the Catholics as that of theireto. There was 'no other Protestant countrtbut Great britain and Russia, where Catholic Bishops were to lerated. It vels true that there were eoverel Catho. lic Bishops in the Prussian dominions, but they . were all appointed by the Bing. Nut even a priest con be ardathed without idle sanction of a Protestant Mini *.ster. No Systodactiuld: be held; nor any business of trssnstickttwithdut its passing through th e I m mo of the Minister. ( Hear.) He dud riot say that he Would introduce all this strictness into Great Britain ; but be would aik 'the:rope what objection there could be, as a mere matter of religions to the King naming the Bishops ? It might be said, that. in Prussia the State provided a stipend for the Bishops it appoints. He would do so het e—(Hear,)—and he thought no securities should..he enforced without this regulation. In every Protestant State of Europe, the ioterior Catholics were prohibited from holding intercourse with the See of Rome. When the Right Hon. Gentleman declared this to be the only intole rant country, he would as boldly assert, that this was the-only Protestant country which would go to that extent of tbletation which had been proposed to the House. (Hear, hear.) With respect to Russia, it was shewn that the Greek Church recedes as far from Popish authority as the reformed religion of this country. The Pope was considered the great schismatic ; and the Emperor appoints the only Ca tholic Archbishop, and gives him a stipend. In Spain it was held to be a high offence to have any cemtnu nication with the Holy. See, except through the State. Persons offending are generally transported to Afrita for ten years ; and in Portugal, even so re cently as 1811, an ecclesiastic had beendenouneed ler having requested. the interference of Rome in an affair emcee their Bishops. (Hear, hear.) The whale of the European States were evidently then exceed iegly anxious upon this subject. And why were they so ! He would tell the House, it was because of the spiritual and temporal doctrine which was denomi nated the Transalpine doctrine—a doctrine which had no footing atty where but in the Vatican and the College of Mitynooth. (Hear, hear, hear.) 'the Hon. Gentleman next called the attention of the House to a recent conduct on the part of the Pope, which it was fit that every Gentleman should most particularly.attend to. For a long time he had given the See of Rome credit for one thing, and that was for nut interfering in the practice pursued by associa tions of persons, who had united for the purpose of distributing Bibles throughout every part of the world ; associations which may be compared to an Angel from BRAVES, spreading the light of the Gos pel throughout all nations, and in all languages. — (Hear.) —He had felt some satisfaction at finding, that the Pope did not attempt ter obstruct their benevolent views ; and be hoped such would continue to be his determination. In this, however, he was disappointed ;. on the 29th of June, a Bull was issued by the See of • Rome, in which this practice was directly censured and reprobated. In Allis bull were the following *ords We have long abhorred this abominable device by which the very foundations of religion are attempted to be undettnined s and having, in consi , deration of the great importance of the subject, con medico our council our venerable brethren, the Car dinals of the. Holy. Roman Church, we have delibe rated with the utmost care and attention upon the measures proper to be adopted by our pontifical au thority,. in order to remedy and abolish this pesti lence as far as possible 1". Such, continucd.the Ho nourable Gentleman, were, the sentiments uttered by modern Rome. • He noticed the circumstance ntrt. for the purpose of inducing 'Protestants to reta liate, but in order to thew that the Runtish Church had undergone no chenge, in the progress of .time, but that it was still the same it had ever been.— He should next , call the attention of the House to a ,work that had lately been published by a Roman Catholic Priest of the name of Gandolphy. His book professed to give a clear exposition of the doc trines, of the Catholic Church. It was true that Doctor Poynter, the Catholic-Bishop, had ordered this work to be suppressed; fronethis order Doctor Geudolphy appealed to the See of Rome; his work. was .:iubmitted to a tribunal there, and that tribunal affixed to it their imprimatur. After examining the ,whole of the conipusitiun, the ttibunat declared that the author bad exhibited the Catholic faith one clearer light than any other person had done, and that it would be highly advantageous, not.only to the land of Saints (weaning Ireland), but to the•entire Catho lic Church. The Honour-Able Member then tea • some passages from the book + in order to spew its nature and tendency. Hate the author described the' Protestant religion as the severest curse that ever was inflicted on mankind ; and speaking of the Bishop of London, not however alluding to any panieolar in dividual, he represented hint as " a missionary from the spirit of darkness, and as the disciple of the father of lies."—(Hear, hear.) In another part, the author called the reformation an unjustifiable rebellion against the Church of CHRIST. The authority of one was founded in strength, and that of the other in truth. So far for the sentiments expressed by the See of Rome, and by.Romish Clergy. With respect to what the See of Rome had done, he would ask it the restoration of the Jesuits was no trifling measure? Were all these that he bad stated, things against which we ought to shut our eyes His object was to skew, that it the House entered . on such an experi- MOM ale that of admitting the Roman Catholics tn . . a participition of the power of the State, it Was per' cessery to have such securities as were required by the whole Christian world. An opinion was current, that if the Roman Catholics were once admitted to participation of political power, the Catholic Laity,' dismardieg aey opinions promulgated by 'Mei& Priests. would continue to conduct themselves with loyalty and attachment towards the Government.— That, however, would not be sufficient to counteract' the influence of the clergy, which was alone sufficient to envelope the whole of the Roman Catholic popu lation. lime-Mr. Foster referred to certain parts of our history, to stew What had been the - temper and spirit of the Catholic clergy' informer times. After Marks the First had been• put to death, the Catholics of Ireland assembled a Council or Perliathent at Kil kenny { there - the Duke of Ormond made peace with a'RomaiCathollc Parliament, and one of the - articles of 'the treaty insisted on by the Bishops was, that , they shoulu retain in. their , hands all the Protestant .chumbee, and all who afterwarderefused trecomply with this 'article wetwexcornmunieated. The Catholic' clergy thentook the' whole executive power • of the country into their hands, and' hrew numbers of per sons into prison. After this, when Cromwell came, to Ireland,theCatholicaristneracy desired the clergy . to make,' Common cause with the LOrdLieutenant,' but to no effect { for they even excommunicated the 'Lord Lieutenant. He thoUght it necessary w Mph 6011311es* facts, because he believed in his eonscien that-if the Roman Catholic clergy had the prredaiti nemesia Ireladd, 'they would' att in Mit ,three tarr manner they had done before. ,He wished to state, that the Reformed= had never made any pm greminilieland, eves after it was cdhquered in the seigreof Elisabeth. -No progress whatever was made - in the couutry. It was James the First who este 'Wished a new lace of men in Ireland. The rebellion eHryrene gave him a pretext tor taking possession of.the whole north province of Ireland, and that p. et becamt,settlisi by numerous British Protestant fami. lies ; who .occupied the low lands. In a short time the edible:et Ulstineunderwent a wonderful improve ment; and Janes, finding this plan succeed so very well, caused a variety of similar settlements to be made in many other parts of Irelend. All tie. time the hativeCetholies never mixed with the Protestants, but tied to the mountains, and they ever since had kept up their feuds and their prejudices. To this very day the animosities subsisted, and these animo sities gave rise to Orange Societies; the cause of which had be - in greatly misunderstood. I: happened that the anniversary of the battle of the Boyoe, sinned to the Protestants their properties and thee. liberties,.was regularly kept by them on that day, the lit of July ; it %was usual for the Protestants to walk in procession; this was considered by the Catholics as an insult, and with that idea they used to rush down from the mountains and make a violent attack -against the Protestants, who, at first, were generally beaten ; they used, however, to rally, proceed to some place where they could procure weapons, and retaliate upon their assailants. This was nothing more than what human instinct must hive prompted them to.— On these occasions they frequently shot some CAIIIO7 r for this they were brought to trial, and gene. rally acquitted. Then the loudest complaints would issue from thei'ves and other quarters against the shocking persecutions of Catholics by Protestants.— Atter all these facts, he would put it to the House, whither the claims now set forth could be granted with safety? Was there, he would ask, any possibi lity of manufacturing the proposed arrangements into any Calm ? If so, let the He use gn into a Committee But if that could not be done, it K:43 itliptSSible to come to any arrangement. Let the Right Hon. Gentleman lay down some definite specific plan, and if that should appear' to be practic-arle, and cou ld b e actsd on without danger, he should have no objec tion to give it hieconcurreoce. Mr. YORK said, he was anxious to state the im pression•which the consideration . of this subject left on his mind. It was now necessary to put an end to this question in one way or another. He had always considered the principal d:filculty belonging to this subject to consist in foreign interference ; and before he conceded any thing, he must have perfect security against that foreign interference which was the very thing he feared. Formerly, when this business was' `discussed. the Pope was at once the vassal and the prisoner of France; •and therefore-it was impossible totem entered into any negociation with. the Pope. Certainly this country was not bound to take the au thority of the' Pope in any thing. But the persons with whom we had to deal made the business wear a very different aspect, and nothing could be donewith them, unless we took the Pope along with them.— Therefore we ought to endeavour to arrange this bu siness with the Pope himself. That Potentate was now in a situation to be negotiated with. When the Pope was master of his own dominions he s might be negotiated nide end that was now -necessary to be done.. If the Rotttan Catholics would take the oath they set forth, and if the Pope agreed that it might be taken, he would so far agree with the Petition of. the Citholics—(Heare Iseer).-11he meet question re lated to the Veto, and to domestic nomination. It was necessary that this should be a pure and domestic nomination, and that the election of the Bishops `shoteci be fair and honest. It was essential to this subject that if thetonseeratiotrof the Pope- was nee cessery; he should' pledge himself 'always to conse crate the person chosen by domestic nomination.— Indeed the practice should' be; .first, to consecrate the four Archbishops, and altetwards that these should consecrate the other 'Bishbps. The Pope's power should be nothing more • than Minieterial.• If all.these things were done and assented to, he shnuld have to objection to accede to the Petition ot the Ca tholics. • Now he - would ask, what security wit there that this segociation could be brought about ? end was it likely to 'be iticcessful? 'He would &elan' that nothing'slioule induce hint to concede ear thing or to stir one step in that business until all these' rangements were previously made. This was di. determination 'of his mind; it would be necessary for the negociation to be immediately entered into by the Government. Let the case stand' over till this was done; and nothing conceded until the negotiation was concluded and the arrangements completedea- The Bid might be brought in, but not passed until all these conditions were clearly 'agreed on. When the Bill should come in, he would be ready to go as far as possible; but he would propose some exceptions, subject to which .he would admit the Roman Catho lics to a participation in all public offices. He should have a great objection to allow the Catholics to hold scats in Parliatnent, and to fill efficient offices under the Crown. If one could be satisfied that there was no design', he should not object even to these. If the Roman Catholics of Ireland were like those of other parts 'of Europe; he would not hesitate cue mo ment in granting them all they asked. But he must declare it achisehrieion. that the Roman Catholics of Ireland. and•ho regretted to say so, were the most bigoted Roman Catholics in the worle. They were more so than'the Ronian Catholics of England. He should be happy to see the Howards, the Plurikets, and other great families, sitting in Parliament ; but j if the legislative frenchise was granted generally, he believed the Protestant represeptation in Ireland would be ettinet. Tf.e presenecertainly was the best time, to take the subject up : we had destroyed the most dangerous and inveterate enemy this •or any other country ever hadeo contendwith; and we now might proceed to the present subject with safety. He hoped the deliberations of the House on this subject would 'finally have the effect of doing away all the heart. burnings and animosities that hadeso long prevailed among the people of Ireland. He was persuaded, that we ought to de every thing in our power, some way or other, to conciliate oar felloir subjects in that Country. He did not hope to be able to satisfy all panics, for that was - impossible ; but the House would fully discharge' its duty Isy doing . that which' was right . anti Just.. With these impressions on his. Objection to give hisassetit to elle astetitnebeftrenthe Noise. • • Sir J. COX HIPPESLEY began, by noticing the proposals made by him last I;csuon, for : T rip % to, the Pope for a eOncordatum to *We the question of nomination ; but this was a matter which did map. pear to him to be of much consequence. He had kno..en instances of domestic nomination of Biship s in this country. in which the nomn don had been it , fused by the Pope. The Hcnourabla Baronet ar t s alluded to the motion he had formerly made.* in. formation respecting the nothinatoin of:Bishop s i n different countries. These documents were tarnished by the diplomatic Brits of different nations, And they threw very considerable light on this important crestion. It appeared from them, that in almost a 4 the nations of Europe, the Catholic Bishops w t i e ' elected without any interference on the part of the Pope. The Honourable Baronet entered into a his, tory of the proceedings of the Catholics in Ireland for some years past s asserted that no restrictions what. ever existed against Catholics in Scotland, where they v.:ere admitted to every kind of office ; and ccrschteti/ ' with supporting the motion. _ _ _ _ _ 1 Sir El: PARNELL expressed the satistaetion.he • felt at the very conciliatory and useful speech he had heard from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite; to every part of which, 'however, he could not agree. Oti the question Of dotneitic nomination, he misled he should be able to convince that Right Hon. Gen tleman and the House. that the practice relative t;• the appointment of Bishops in Ireland was yery ail ferent from what had been stated. He should also spew that in that instance a complete security would be given to the Government. An Honourable G , i, demon had stated that Bishops were in the habit of appointing coadjutors. Nu such practice prevailed in Ireland. The thing was very seldom done, and that only in case of great bodily infirmity on the pp• of a Bishop. It was a most essential p art of the r . sent discussion, to understand what was the pinata observed in the notninttion of the Catholic Bishop.. Whenever a vacancy occurred, the Bishops of the province met, and had the opinicins of the benefited clergy belonging to the vacant diocese, as to ilymea. proper person to be chosen. Three triunes were the, !elected. These were seat to the Pope, who Lad tie power of appointing any one of the three, but V/1,3 generally approved. of the person whose name stood • first on the-list, as a matter of course, though nut of right. Now as many Gentlemen were apprehensive Ot red .coneequencea likely to result from the into: ference of the Pape; -he tert.uld, explain the arrange ments which•wc.e agreed to be entered into. The Port: did possess the pottier of nppointiug D is t la ps ; he fl ai g ln, wpoo:nt a foreigner, bat. that was a power he never exercised. Every body, however, acquainted with the discipline of the Catholic Church kit:ninth-it it the Pripe refused to grant an institution, still the Intsiness of the Hierarchy might be carried on. Plc the Irish Bishops now proposed that a concordatum -shrifts., be entered into v.ith the Pope, whetem he should undertake not to give an institution to any Bishop but-one elected by the Catholics themselves.— The effect of this would be to lenitive for ever the possibility of foreign influence having any power in the nomination of Bishops. It emeltl then berme the national nomination which the Right lionnotab;! Gentlemen was• so anxious to see established as A safeguard to the country. This was a new tact, and it took away every ground of objection advaaced ly the Himourabk Gentleman opposite (Mr. Enter!, inasjnuch as it altogetheineinoved the danger of le reign influences He .woul.l add, that the Catholic • Bishops even whit further; they were witting to take an .ontli 'to . ..ilea, ho peison who was not a neive ei thie.eountry, who was not 'of peaceable and orderly' conduct, and who was not attached to the establithed. Constitution. The following was a copy tit the oath: " cA. B. swear that I.Trlll Rot Ow any . oersun to the sine., lion of bisbop, who is .not -a mativt subject of dust '04:40111*, and whom I do nut bsdiave if, be a loyal subject in Lis ni.jery, and that l will not encourage.anyiptClupt to alter the Imirs of the country; mina thanif a l.sboadd discover any other person nub% a similar aueinot, I. win give intOrmation of the iame ta ha Majesty's qovernment., - -This he .conceivetLto be,ri. Complete security to the Government '..against any danger that Might be ap. prehendedgfrom , foreign 'into ference. The general feeling ot - the c'ithotics was' peaceably to submit CO Lo;ty regulations which the I-louse-might think pro ,t adopt... He:rnaintaioed, that astar as the Cade). loos were .etinetiened;' they had done every thing is eli power 'tn meet the Objections made to thit r • . awns. The ciah'Which he had read ought to cot:. nce the House that no apprehension of danger 1 , uld now exist, so Tar as regarded foreign influence. , tdi'avat not the time to discuss the question of the ,T . etoo , in a CoMMittee that point might be considerxt and a satisfactory .enplanation come to upon is .Thesefore he hoped the- House•would have no tobjx. Oat to go immediately into a Committee, as ther might never have such another opportunity c: comi;;; to a decision on this most important subject. . .; Mra WEBBER contended, that this quest." . conceded, would go to the subversion of the Chunt Establishment of Ireland, it not to that of ihe ear part of the United Kingdom. It would be : toned an independent legislature totally unconnected v j this country, The term emancipatiGn, said the l-ro nourable Gentleman, implies a pre-existing state e: slavery, which does. not in reality exist. It 'Fa ti the use of this term that many pour ignorant torsi' of Ireland owed their miaaken notions of living ii a state of degradation, which gave rise to animus ties that sometimes ended in the siieddnig of :1.1m 2 g blood. If the law now stood as it did before 111 " penal enactments against the Catholics were rentevee , there might he some pretence for using the term nem cinition in reference to their situation. The Hance" - able Member then went into a history of the Peril t Laws affecting the Catholic', end their abrogation , ' inferring; that the lanes of exclusion now on the Sl' . tote Books were nothing more , than had been onne dered necessary, as the safeguards of our Conchs• tier:, by tome of the wisest and best men of ditiefee t ages in this.c.nintry. tie called upon the Right He' nisi:rabic Gentleman opposite (Mr. Grattan), to rg whether there was not danger to Protestant estattito• ment in Papal auchotity ? It not, why call ter 5C' .curities ? ( Hear, hear,. hwir). Mr. W. ELLIOTT cut, he should trouble the House withiery little op the present occasion. Ore of the objects for whiclshe ruse, was to notice the im pression which had been made in the House, by ex' tracts road .by the Huntrurable Gentleman 0p00 . , 11e (Mr.,.Ftatter) from a Panipltlen published by 1 1 _,.r• Gaudniphy. It was true, that the Iloator went you' this pamphlet to' Rome; and obtained an impriunate i there for it ; but it was equally true, that CAI 6" Letts had since informed P h roymcr, the lei/wino° r