Star. — London, England, 1810-02-06 00:00:00

' heard, that it atniet helittiiltion that . 'tight Friend" ought . to accept of a Com. his in i fte e selected by those who were habitually oppozed h e Ministers, and who; as they themselves cen t° t wanted to get rid of the present Government. r ie , csc , j 4 ;nlr, according' to the view of the Right Hon. - 6, t deman opposite, which was, to turn out the Go vernment, th boa way would be to constitute& ciontr icee with e balance adverse to the Admini. stration. Stephen then remarked, that the Gen.,' ilsinen who were now objected to, he would' !moll- Citly tia•zt in a matter where. party bias had no influ ence. But he protested against the Noble Lord's m ode of selecting this Committee, where party ani mosity must prevail to a . considerable extent—by which a Lr::le would, as if by magic, be swellei to a titer ^f great importance, like the operations of the ' Wizard LI Scot's Poems— A nut•xliell shone a stately barge, " c:atage seemed a palace large," &c. , c „ man e n u id tya more honourable than his Learned Sir Arthur Pigott, and no one could with safety be trusted in a matter where party bias •of the question. But the Gentlemen oppo. ;lly wished to turn the present Administra , but to get themselves in ; and therefore this :ase where the prosecutor, who claimed the appointing the Jury, would share in the ad , of conviction. The law allowed an accused ,o challenge peremptorily, and without reason a certain number of his jurors. But here :y who would gain by the conviction wished :nt the jurors. He could not think this right. me must be sensible that he could have no ob :o his Honourable Relation (Mr. Wilberforce) he same - time he admitted the validity of the n, that he was not the person to be opposed who were in habits Of regular opposition to ;ent Administration. His Honourable Re , :as of no party—and, in order. to have an it was necessary to have persons attached to iisterial, as well as Members who were attach ie Opposition. WINDHAM observed, that the Learned Tnan who had just aat down had argued ably, ited justly, only this, - that neither the one nor .r went at all to the purpose. He proceeded.'i broad fundamental misconception, taking for I, at the very outset, that the proposed Com-1 :as to be selected after the manner of altiry. I iswer to that was, that in its natuie and in its it did by no means resemble it ; but even if it , rely the mode of selecting Juries was nit by , .ing c . rpposite partialities. In place of a Juty, 'Mr. Windham), contended, that the proposed ittee was a part of the prosecution, having an.l in the method of proceeding, and standing in of selecting such individuals as were supposed ' influenced from any party bias. He would , r, that impartiality was not . a necessary ingre its constitution. It was too learly allied to ence ; and the House well knew, that indif men were bat'poorly. qualified to pursue, mill diEg. rice, irsenTance, and zeal necessary, a of condiiet solable to numerous dangers and iments ; indeed, when these were considered, tiality almost amounted to a disqualification. :hat did the Chancellor of the Exchequer ittra I Nothing less than that the accused should their agents employed in conducting the prase., 1. With as much right would an adverse party Iv have to say to his opponent—the Attorney en d to conduct the prosecution is hostile to me, me be allowed to get another to join him, by way In assessor in this process against myself.— al came the neutral Members, to whom he Windham) would never allow any preference irm a correct and upright opinion, before himself, ever had, and ever, he trusted, would continue a 'man. For what preference should they claim upon whatever side the fit of the moment led to vote, were, for that time, and upon that side, long party men as any other in that House ? lowing the whole extent of the Right Honour- Gentleman's objections to the list proposed by foble Friend, it was next to be ascertained how tese objections could affect the demands of pub aice. The utmost efforts of 'their party preju could not lead them further than to garble and ilate to the disadvantage of the Ministers' those documents which the latter would lay before Still Ministers, even in thii most aggravated hid the power tobalance the accou nt with them ly from having the papers in their possession.— ier this view, the Learned Gentleman aho List must himself perceive that he laboured under misconception and confusion of one tribunal with BURTON, although of opinion that the pro- Committee could not be considered of the 113.- of a Jury, still considered it to resemble another occasionally resorted to both by the Courts of and Equity—he meant the appointment of ttnissioners selected for the purpose of examining hence, and who were generally Chosen by the ad- Partiec reciprocally. ienet.tl G ito SV ENO R rose, but having miston kq the question before the House, he was correct the SPE Eft. • it. I - 10 11HO USE thought the appointment of the' 'committee should be postponed, until the opportuni „r 4scertaining its necessity had occurred. He reu from the two Members at the opposite side, ' so differed With. each other' upon the particular stitution of that tommittee. It could nit be that ,fury, as it . had no decision to give. With it Was no power of adjimilication, neither could he Sider it as forming any constituent part of-the pro ition. He thought it' much more resembled a mission, and should be selected without any re nee to a balance. of interests, by which one law lc'ts opposed to another, one General to anotherr, Sic forth. When he came to consider upon the 'Peetive names of the Gentlemen proposed, he 41d form his decision, not upon their party attach , 141 nts, but upon•the extent of their individual abili • to perform the duty to which they were called. Lord PORCHESTER remarked upon the singu 'atzernpt of the Right Nonotirable the Chancellor the Exchequer to introduce his affected impartia :Y in the formation of the present Committee. His ?'Plaint arcain,t the original list was, that there I m that five names of 'Gentlemen habitually \ to his Administraticre, and in way of remedy evil, ant with a view of getting a truly in 4.. Ci•mmittee, be has proposed in their places Ave ethers, who unircitei fiaire yowl with tile Co& vernment. Not only that, but-every single individual Of whom have in that House voted-against inquiry: into this very expedition to Waltheren. (Uri asy Hear, Near.) Can the House and Country baßeirs, that the resolution for that inquiry will ever be carried into effect in the way calculated to provide for the public interests, when it will see that the next step after the vote for inquiry, was to acquiesce in such an expedient ? But the Learned Gentleman has said that the prosecutors in this case looked also forward to share the penalty inflicted upon the accused Mi nistry. Did such an insinuation apply to him who had never been in office, and had yet to learn whether he was even now on the road to preferment ? Could it apply to Mr. Whitbread, and to the diffetesit• other Members of the original List, who had neiNlir been in office ? And, above all, could that Learned. Gentleman apply such language to Mr. Wilberforce I Mr. YORKE declared, that no man was entitled to say that he had voted against Inquiry... It was true, that he had on the first night voted against the Amendment, and for the Address. That on another occasion he had opposed the motion of the Noble. Lord as premature ; but these decisions were not against inquiry. He was anxious for the production of papers ; until they were produced, he did not wish to give any opinion whether inquiry was or was not necessary. The information was now before the House, and, in point of fact, he wished it to be understood, that he was now friendly to Inquiry. (Hear, hear! from the ONtesition.) Mr. M. MONTAGUE also vindicated himself from the charge of having voted against Inquiry ; it was not fair thus to try to influence their constituents against them. It was not intended that the Commit tee should ransack for accusations. (Loud coughing.) He did not mean to trespass any longer on the pa tience of the House. Mr. D. BROWN never held a place, and did not vote against Inquiry. He had voted against entering into a precipitate Inquiry—lnquiry without having the documents to judge by ; and he had no doubt that many Members on that night voted against the previ ous question who did so from a motive of apprehen sion, lest if they did the contrary . , they should have been set down as enemies to inquiry. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER proposed, that Mr. Wilberforce's name be inserted in the list of the Committee, in the toom of Lord Pot.. chester's. The nature of that Committee had been mistaken. The Members of it were not to adjudge any question ; it was their exclusive duty to receive such secret information as his Majesty's Ministers should think necessary, in order to explain the policy which led to the Expedition. in question, and report it to the House. This was the only duty which they had to discharge. Mr. BANKES said it was an unusual thing for any Member to propose a Committee to that House without naming himself as the Chairman. The SPEAKER observed that it was quite a mat ter of option with any Member to word his motion as he thought proper, and that he (the Speaker) would put the motion as it was given to him. Lord PORCHESTER withdrew his original mo : don. The SPEAKER then pot the question on the Committee, which was carried without a division. Lord PORCHESTER nominated for the Com mine— . Hlms&—Agreed to. Mr. Bathurst.—Agreed to. D.lr. F. Robinson.--Agreed to. Admiral Markham.—Agreed to. General Ferguson.—Agreed to. Mr. Wilberforce- On the proposal of this last name— The CHANCELLOR of . the EXCHEQUER I proposed that of Mr. Sturges Bourne as an Amend ment. Lord PORCHESTER declared it his intention, in case Mr. Wilberforce was suffered to remain on the Committee, to nominate Mr. Sturges Bourne next; but Mr. PERCEVAL persisting in his intention to divide the House, strangers wereprdered to withdraw. The only division that took place was on the names of Sir John Sebright and Mr. Yorke. For Mr. Yorke - - 196 Sir John Sebright l2B All the rest were agreed to without any division, and the names of the•whole are as follow : Lord Porchester General Ferguson Captain Beresford I Mr. F. Robinson Mr. Wilberforce Mr. Davies Giddy Admiral Markham I Mr. Sturges Bourne GeneralCraufurd Mr. Bathurst Mr. Yorke . On our being re-admitted, we found the CHANcEL- Lea of the EXCHEQUER speaking to a point of order. The SPEAKER then put the question, that an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, request ing copies of all the instructions given to Lord Cha tham and Sir Richa• d Strachan relative to the Ex pedition to the Scheldt, which was carried in the affirmative. . Lord PORCHESTER deemed these instructions too sdanty. He therefore moved, that not only all ' the instructions, but also all the papers relating to .any correspondence between his Majesty's Ministers , and the O ffi cers employed in the Expedition to the Scheldt, be laid on the table. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did ' not believe there were any papers of consequence re lative to the Expedition that were not already on the - table, except such as were reserved for the inspection ,-, of the Secret Committee. The SPEAKER then put the question, that Mr. Bathurst's Dispatch of the 15th September. be laid on the table.—Ordered. . -•- • Mrc CROKER said, that there was a letter from the Commander in Chief of the Expedition (Lord 'Chatham)' dated the 14th September, which was not before the House, and which would be laid before the Secret Committee, and that it would be very desir able it should be attentively considered. • The House then resolved itselfinto a Committee of Inquiry to prosecute the examination into the circum stances of the Expedition to the Scheldt ; when, on the 'notion of Mr. Yorke for the enforcement of the Standing Order, we were obliged to withdraw. [Strangers were not again admitted ; but we un- I derstand Sir DAvto Dolmas undeiwent a long exa-1 I rnination in regard to the state of the army previous to its sailing, and thonature of the preparations for I fitting it oat. Sir-Luews PEPiS was afterwards exa mined. We understand the. principal- point of his examination was, that the time of his being consulted with respect to the climate of Walcheren, was the 10th of September.—Adjoarned at One o'cloe44 which ", ; matter ^I Wizard i 7o man ,q,••72 SA• E V:l5 c,tt ( ' to no: c' ion out, as :1 of vaat pervon tJ assi gned, the Pu t ) . ' to aPP°' t • E ver y or action to • t , t at th E.• r • •iton e thoie • e Fres( • bun st: !' equality, t• he Mini. a ed to the Mr. s' Gentle;n a▪ nd quo; r. .1 let ri!,•,:a a h to , granted, nittee V A Tic ins' ip dati6 it e. sure e ' balartc in 1 • 1 " (Mi to Ccemit te • r.terest e• in need to be tren's sat • drat in st rff• =mere th firent e 111 the ly cook n- • mpedir it inaparti d, Pawl 11 ep rse ? t re tr gum% at law in rer g a g ed kt m of of ar ant m en Dt ' fr. n- te, wn t:ho e by Party cch 111° ' t them t 1? hu ai stro Yet all ire able G /as ble oftLir the , just tau dice o scd toutila' so L 0 public of the state,l nll ieetel Y Under sloke no- ' .mi Pll. 2110•114 one Mr. ) and load (cr. tre e iody, Law Io n. Cstp.t any arse !` l at te N rkc. • GE 1e- cede, ctr:t • td by atria ie if tami •IY Mr. t he • zzo ,1 to West aim i f h err • mr.si r ally (c ut of fn. en :°l4l [cicd. • s _ctic e and iect• 1 ,„ g ot i. ` 1 1) `hop • ac• if it . 1 7 1 : • Cie" ' L. t , m aa right Cry rylel/ Gew a. sa id etch • i•.' ether sr • ,ig - •. ", .i . . • kits tkictli Ira here. in Anttary, iit wisielritst* fortis, ..--- • ....0 the Particulars of several conversations that Had pass . MESSAGJI FROSI THE PRESIDENT or THE UNITED sTATEc, TRANS- ed between him and Mr; Madis'oul Mr. Gallatin and yourself, but especially the two last:. that it app eared WITTING EXTRACTS raost THE costagsroxmics or from these conversations, that, in the opinion of the MR. PINKNEY. persons with . whom they were held, the Government To the House Of Representatives of the United States, Agreeably to the requeseerpressed in the resolutinit of n . the llnited States would be willing that Great of the 13th instant I lais r lsefore the House extracts ntain should consider the measures . then contem from the Corr e spondence the Minister Plenipoten- plated by Congress relative to Nen-intercourse and the indiscriminate - exclusion ' of belligerent vessels from tiary of the United States at London. our waters, as presenting an opening for the renewal Dec. 16, 1809. (Signed) JAMES MADISON. `of amicable discussions with this country : that it BRIEF ACCOUNT would br. disposed, in the case of the Chesapeake, to • Of an unoffidal Conversation between Mr. CAN): iNO and Mr. I . receive as sufficient reparation, in- addition to the PINKNIT, on the tstb of January, 1809, cogtinued on the 224 of the same month. [Transmitted by Mi. PINKNEY to prompt disavowal and recal of Admiral Berkeley, the the Secretary of State.] restoration of the seamen forcibly taken out of that I dined at Mr. Canning's with the cols: difilcimatigue vessel : that, on the subject of the Orders in Council, on the 18th January. Before dinner he came up to_ jit would have no objection, in case they were revoked Me, and entering into conversation, adverted to a re- as regarded to the United States, to repeal the Em port which he said had reached him that the Ameri- bargo and Non intercourse Laws as to Great Britain, can Ministers (here and in France) were about to be and to continue them as to France and Holland, and recalled. I replied, that I was not aware that such such other countries as should have in force Maritime a step had been resolved upon. He then took me Edicts similar to those of France, so long as those aside, and observed, that according to his view of Edicts remained—that it would allow it to be tinder the late proceedings of Congress, the resolutions of stood, that the 'British cruizers might capture Ame the House of Representatives, in committee of the rican vessels attempting to violate the Embargn and whole,- appeared to be calculated, if passed into a Non-intercourse Laws so modified : that it would even law, to remove the impediments to arrangement with agree to abandon, during the present war, all trade the United States, on the subjects of the Orders in with enemies colonies from which we were excluded Council and the Chesapeake, by taking away the in peace : that it was prepared to regulate by treaty discrimination between Great Britain and France in the commercial relations of the two countries, upon the exclusion of vessels of war from the American the basis of the most favoured nation, or upon hat of ports. He added that it was another favourable car- reciprocal equality; and, in a word, that it was ex , cumstance that the non-importation system which tremely desirous of re-establishing the most perfect seemed to be in contemplation, was to be • applied good understanding, and the most friendly connec equally to both parties, instead of affecting as hereto- anon with Great Britain. fore Great Britain alone. Mr. Canning proceeded to inform me, that in conse- I proposed to Mr. Canning, that I should call on quence of these representations, some,parts of which him in the course of a day or two, for the purpose of he said I had myself confirmed in two conversations a free communication, upon what he had suggested. in January, he had framed and transmitted to'Mr. To this he readily assented ; and it was settled that I Erskine two sets of ins , ructions,dated the 23d of that should see him on the Sunday following (the 22d) at month, but not forwarded till some time afterwards, twelve o'clock, at his own house. the first of which related to the business of .the Chesa. In the interview of the 22d, Mr. Canning's impres- peake, and the second to the Orders in CounciV and sions appeared to be in all respects the same with the proposed Commercial Arrangements. I'hesb in those which he had mentioned on the 18th ; and I structions, together with the passages in Mt. Erskine's said every thing . which I thought consistent with can- letter, written, I believe, in December last, which dour and discretion, to confirm him in his disposition contained the above-mentioned representations, and to seek the re-establishment of good understanding some other details, which I ought not to repeat, Mr. with tis, and especially to see in the expected act of Canning read to me. Congress, if it should pass, an opening for reconci- - Although Mr. Canning made me acquainted nation. with Mr. Erskine's instructions, he could not in any It was of some importance to turn their attention degree apprize me of the explanations transmitted here, without loss of time, to the manner of any pro- by that Minister, of the grounds and motives of his ceeding that might be in their contemplation. It proceedingt ; and I could not be sure, from any seemed that the resolutions of the House of Repre- thing which Mr. Canning had stated to me, that I sentatives, if enacted into a law, might render it pro- had been to understand the exact nature and charac per, if not indisp ensable , that the affair of the Chesa. ter of the transaction. I believed , therefore, that it peake should be settled at the same time with the bu- behoved me to be particularly careful how I received sinessof the ordersand embargo,and this I understood what Mr. Canning thought fit to disclose to me. In to be Mr. Canning's opinion and wish. It followed looking *back upon the past I discovered no induce , that the whole matter ought to be settled at Wash- ments to a less cautious course. I remembered that ington and, as this was moreover desirable on vari- Mr. Canning had not told me in our conversations ous other grounds, I suggested it would be well, in in January (one of which occurred the day before the case a special mission did not meet their approbation, date of his letter to Mr. Erskine) that he intended to that the necessary powers should be sent to Mr. confide t o him such powers as he must then have Erskine. been in the act of preparing, or indeed any powers as In the course of the conversation, Mr. Canning all. Thai in our conferences in April, after the arrival proposed several questions relative to our late peope- of the Pacific, the same. reserve was, practised, sal ; the principal were the two following : ' 1 —That in the last of those conferences Mr. Canning 1. In case they should wish, either through me or admitted only (and that too upon being pressed by I through Mr. Erskine, to meet us upon the basis of me) that in the business of the Chesapeake, he ' had our late overture, in what way was the effectual ope. written to Mr. Erskine, in compliance with what he i ration of our embargo as to France, &c. after it should understood to be my wish, that the settlement of that be taken off as to Great Britain, to be secured. It affair should be transferred . to Wa,shington,' that even was evident; he said, that we should do no more than i then thc time, when he had done so,. was not men- refuse clearances for the ports of France, Ste. or I tioned ; and that as to the Order's in Council,-1 was prohibit under penalties, voyages to such ports, the suffered to suppose that*negociation iii 'America had effect which my letter of the 23c1 of August, and 1 not been authorised. It occurred to me, " moreover, my published instructions , , proposed to have in view, that as it had already been decided that dr. Erskine would not be produced ; for that vessels, although was to be disavowed, and as that decision had been cleared for British ports, might, when once out, go made public through the Board of Trade, I could to France instead of coming here ; that this would not hope to prevent that disavowal, and that with my in fact be so, whatever the penalties which the Ame- :imperfect knowledge of facts, it might be worse than rican laws might denounce against offenders) could useless by. laboured discussion to attempt it. not, he imagined, be doubted ; and he therefore pre- " With these impressions I could do little more sumed that the Government of the United States than manifest My concern that conciliatory arrange would not, after it had itself declared a commerce ments between the American Secretary of State, and with France, &c. illegal, and its citizens who should his Majesty's accredited Minister at Washington, act engage in it, delinquents, and after having given to j ing in consequence, and professing to act in purso- Great Britain by compact an interest in the strict ob- t once of orders fromhisCourt,were not like to have that servation of prohibition, complain if the naval force effect which was naturally to be expected from them. of this country should assist in preventing such acinn• " I understood, however, to declare with confi merce. dente that the American Government had met Mr. 2d, He asked, whither there would be any objec- , Ei-skine's proposals in a just and friendly spirit, and - British with • desire that while its own honour - - , AMER, tion to making the repeal of the . orders 2nd the American embargo cotemporaneous ? He seemed to consider this as indispensible. Nothing . could be less admissible, he said, than that Great Br itain, after rescinding her orders, should for any time, however short, be left subject to the embargo in common with France, whose decrees were subsisting, with a view to I, an experiment upoh France, or with any other view. The United States could not, upon their own princi ples, apply the embargo to this country one momeat after its orders were revoked, or decline after the I event to apply it exclusively to France and the Powers connected with her system. I took occasion, towards the close of our conversa tion, to mention the recent appointment of Admiral Berkeley to the Lisbon station. Mr. Canning said, that whatever might be their inclination to consult the feelings of the American Government on that subject, it was impossible for the Admiralty to resist the claim of that officer to be employed (no other objection existing against him) after such. a lapse of time since his return from Halifax, without bringing him to a Court Martial. .The usage of the navy was in this respect different from that of the army. But I understood Mr. Cannily to say that he might still _ a sincere . and essential interests were fairly consulted and maintain ed, a liberal respect should be shewn for those- Great Britain."—(Ts be continued.) CONGRESS—SENATE, Dgc. The Bill to prevent the abuse of privileges and immunities enjoyed by Foreign Ministeri Within the United States, was read a third tine, arid' decided by yeas and nays as follows : Yeas 20—Nays 2—So the Mt was passed: •• The Prtsident communicated a Letter frani the Se cretary of War on the subject of torti fiedtion's. , Whereupon, on the motion of Mr. SMITH, 00427- land, the galleries were cleared, and it was agreed that the Report be read with closed doors.—Ordered that it lie for consideration. . . HOUSE OF REPMENTATIVES, DECEMBER . 21: A communication aFts received ; from the Secretary of War, stating the situation and state of the different fortifications of the United States. Objection was made - to the reading of this paper, on the ground that it"-would afford oflicial- informa tion to the eneidies of the United States, 1i they have any, of their weakest points. • taken on the re, a' of it, and A question was tied in the affirmative. The Report was referred to the Committee of For. 1 . tificaions. be brought to a Court . lartial, although not understand him to say that this would be the case. He said that Admiral Berkley, in what he had done, had acted wholly without authority. I did not pro pose to enter into any discussion upon the subject, and therefore contented myself with speaking of, the• ap pointment as unfortunate. Extract of a Letter from WILLIAM Pimitmer, Esq. Minliter Plenipotentiary of the United States in London, to the Secretary of State, dated London, May 28, 1109, - In the interview which took place on May 25, Mr. Canning said, that the British Minister had acted, in his ,late negociation and engagements with you, not only without authority, but ia direct opposition to the most precise instructions : that the instructions actu ally given to him had beau founded on his own let. RUPTURE WITH MR. JACKSON. . The House again in Committee of the whole oa the res(Aution from the Senate, • Mr. ESIOTT concluded his speech against it. Mr. Gocu.soN and Mr. Ross spoke in favour of it. And at half past three, on the motion of Mr. Ur- ILANi, the Committee rose and obtained leave to sit again, and the House adjourned. DiCRUBER 22 —The Bill from the Senate, respect ing Foreign Ministers, was read twice, and referred to a Committee of the whole House on Tuesday. The House resolved itself into a Committee of the car-