Star. — London, England, 1803-08-11 00:00:00

or cenfure it in the aightell degree. This he thought' was rather ton hard a talk. If Minillers a!led right, whether as a Member of Parliament in that Houle or as etanglifhman out of that Hule. he thought it would be his right and his duty to fuppnrt them, and when that was conlidered to be the cndoubted right of every Member and of every Englifliman, it mull Unequivocally follow, in his judgment. that he mud feelbimfelf equally entitled to cenfure where they made themfelvea liable to it. We mud have fome. thing on which to red our hopes, and W we lean on what will throw us down, we then might as well lean upon a broken reed. is it becaufe they have brought us into this Lite of peril that we are to venerate them the more ? Is it becaufe they have Leon the original caufe of all this danger that we are to trod them the more ? If that were the cafe, we amid wait until the enemy had landed on our P. coatis, and we would then have the utmult occation :.o rely upon their wifdom. The StCRkTARY at WAR laid, that with refired to a great part of what had been laid by the Right Han. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) he confelfed he did not underhand what that Right Hon. Gentleman I meant. When the Right Hon. Gentleman talked .of a refident armed population to be armed as look 'Light Infantry, which would be the belt palEhle of Nfillanee to a Regular Force, and at the fame time ob , iefted to meafirrea taken to procure that fpecies of force, he was wholly, at a lots to underhand what the 1 Right Hon. Gentleman meant. But in objeding to the fyftem purfued by Government as erroneous at fo very early a period after the palling of the Mt alluded to, how was it poffible for the Right Hon. Gentleman to know precifely what was inrended to be done by Government with refped to this force ? It was at prefent only known, that in conformitY with the provifinns of the law, every encouragement bad been given to the formation of volunteer corps; but how the Right Hon. Gentleman could imagine. Ivat the prefent moment. fo Ikon a time after die pall lag the MI, that the whole force intended to be brought forward was to be confined to Volunteers, he was at a lots to underhand. He did not accirfe the Right Honourable Gentleman of calling reflec tions upon the Militia, or the Volunteers, and he mutt admit that they were not equal in many relpeds to the Regulars ; but he mud fay, once for all, much as be refpeded the Right Honourable Gentleman, that they had a tight to complain that that Right Ho. pourable Gentleman fhould now give the whole weight of his authority to criticifms upon the errors of thole meafures, whild at the period when that 1 Right Hoe. Gentleman had a feat in the Cabinet he did not avow thole opinions which he now brought forward. At that period, during the lad War, the • Volunteer Syftem was carried to as great an extent as at prefent ;--the Militia the fame ;—and yet the Right Hnn. Gentleman, with his opinions refped log the danger of the Country, which if not then fo great as now, was nearly to, had not then thought it his duty to date thofe fentiments by which he was aduated : as to the erroneous nature of the Volun teer and Militia Syftems, he thought the Volunteer fyftem a good one, and an admirable made of in creating the public force, and that it had been upon the prefent occalion very properly refortea to. The Right Hon. Gentleman had, however, found out that it was the intention of Government to confine themfelves entirely to this Volunteer force. Where did the Right Hon. Gentleman difcover this ? He bad no helltrion in giying, that in different parts of the country the defcription of Volunteer force requi fate might be very different. In fome places large bodies of Volunteers would be heft ; in others, it would be better if they were formed into Independent Companies ; in other places, perhaps, it would be better if they were not formed into Companies at all. Ilut as to laying down any general fy Item, it was im• pollible ; it mull depend upon local circumaances, and the danger to which particular parts might be expofed. Having hated this, he hoped he had con vinced the Houk that no general principle upon this fubjeft could be applied to Government at the prefent moment. Minillers stied under a great refponfibility ; let them be judged by the meafares they adopted, and not according to pre conceived opinions. The Right Hon. Gentleman had laid, that the meafure made a great noire, but produced no force ; he was furpriced to hear this from the Right Hon. Gentle man, who could not have given himfelf time to exa mine into cm, citmhances. The public force was filling up from day to day, and in no very confich.rable time the country mull be placed above all danger. .11 the metropolis was only looked to, they found that even there the public fpirit of the people was filch that the public force was receiving the molt confideroble aug• =oration, day by day. With tepee to the country, he had no means at prefent of exatly knowing the number of Volunteers, but he might fay that from too to rso,ooo had already been added to the pub lic force. He was perfuaded that a Volunteer force contributed greatly to the fafety of the Country, and no honed man would refufs to pay a tribute to the gallantry and zeal with which the Volunteers had come forward upon the pre fent tweafion. The Right Honourable Gentle. man had Laid that to vote the Thanks would be premature, but this was a crifis in which In much of the public fafety depended upon the zeal of the coun try, that he was perluadeil this was one of the occa fions in which they ought to relax their general rule , . The prefent motion was, too, not unprecedented ; a fimilar motion was patted at the conclufion of the lit War, and no man could fay that the energy of the Volunteers at that period, great as it was, cx teeded the prefent.. It had been laid, that the Vo. lumen of Dublin ought to be thanked for laving the capital, which was endangered by the negligence of the Qoternmeot : he denied, however, that the capital was endangered by the negligence of the Government, or that it was laved by the Volumetrs, a garrifon of three or four thoufand men being in thae.city. wish whom the Volunteers co-operated. Mr. Closet.ss Dyson obferved, that the fpirit which at prefent ratified in the Country ought to be cherilbed. With rape° to what had been lard by the Ri bt Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Winn lsaan) relative to the Cavalry, be (Mr. Charles Dead's) commanded one of she Regiments of that force in the lea War, the difeipline of which received the ap robotics of (event' Generals; and he defied the Right How. Gentleman to bring any General who would fay that he did not with that Regiment to come near him in a military point of view. At the pram saawnos e crazy sun was loctkm; about to fee what he could do as a Coldier ; thi Country mild" not bear the expanse of a Regular Army to that ez, tent, and a Volunteer force would not cnly lave the Country, but Cave its park in a more material degree. Mr. WINOHAM explained. He did not mean to make the leatt allusion to any particular Corps; he only intended to Rate generally that the Volunteers would not, at all events, be found as ferviceable as the Houk teemed to imagine they would. Mr. Wit.eatroace expatiated on the well known patriotilm and bravery of Englilhmen at every period of their bitlorl, and thence inferred that it would be ufelefs to thank the country for doing no more than what it had always done on every =Allan where the exigency of their affairs required it. He would not with to have it known that they were thanked by the Legillature for what they had already done, as that might be conilrued to imply time previous doubt, or to convey an idea that they had exceeded our expec tations. Engidlimen wanted no fuels flimulus to in cite them towards the defence of their native foil.— He then gave a defcription of the liberality, as well is the patriotifm, of that part of the country which he laid he had the honour to reprefent, and acquain ted the Houk that a fubfcription had been entered into there, upon nearly a (uvular plan to that in the City of Loudon, and that feveral thoufands had been already puz down. He then adverted to the differ ence between a regular and a volunteer force, and faid hs thought that a man might be trained to wised, to fire, Sec. and yet not be able to ufnatch a grace beyond the rules of art." This drew to his mks' the intrepid cantina, the colleded thought, and the moll ardulus enterprifing fpirit of our gallant e orntryman, Sir Sidney Smith, on whom he paired Ore highell encomiums, declaring that by land or at fea his exploits were equally marrifell and equal y fplendid; that he was like that juitly celebrated hero Englifh Hillory, the Duke of Marlborough, who made the moll dilcoriant principles of nature unite in fupport of the taint which he efpoufed. There was finnething. however, in the vet y nature of the prefent volunteering fyllem, however ardent, brave, or zealous its members might be, which he thought made them liable to objeaion. Many from their age, their (late of health, or their conneetions in' life, would be fount rya fit to endure the hard flips which many others in the lame Corps, were ready and able to hear. lie would avoid trea.i ing on military geound as much as po(flble, but confelfed he hoped that it would be the meant Of eliciting the oblervations of Gentlemen far better qualified, and whole ideas might, according to hi, opinion, be ferviceable to the HJufe (ladix: toward: Col. Craufard). All that he meant to draw the at tention of the Hoofs to, was Lova, ds the clailitica tion of the different Volunteer COI FS. If that was not attended to, he thought that we might be able to alcertain the numbers by looking at the li is, but we would never he able to afcertain the true effective force. What had been mentioned by an H , nourable Member (Mr. Chapple) refpeding the Fail Intl.a force being fent to the Weft Indies. he was lorry to have heard in that Houle, and hoped that it would never he adopted by his Majeay's Government. Oa this point he dwelt for Come time, and declared that he conlidered that part of the world as a devouring gulf, which fo-allowed up all our forte ; and that it was a greater expense and lefs real advantage to us by many degrees, than what the French had gained on the Continent lait war alone. He then paid Come handlome compliments to the Lawyers' Corps, and laid that he thought we Ilsould not troll to much to perfons who had no flake in the country, as to thofe on whom, from their wealth and refpeaability, we could rely in the boor of danger. But there was another point to which he expreffed a hope and con fidence that Miniflers would attend, that was, to the providing thofe of our countrymen who volunteered their Cervices with proper arms, and training them accordingly ; for inflance, he had heard a good deal of the difficulty of procuring firelocks for this im menfe force, and he had enquired as to the nature of the obariele. He found that barrels could be fuppli ed in abundance, but that the difficulty was in get. sing the locks made fall enough. That had fug geited to him the idea that a number of men Ihould be dirciplined in another way ; our artillery might be brought into more active fervice. Several extraordinary exertions he thought might be made. , in the manner of a Gentleman in. that part of the country where he came horn, who, being &Aced as to what he meant to fulaferibe, defired them to refrain from preffing the otreflion r he could name no parti cular annum, bur he would veil his whole cline and all his affets in the hands of any refpetlable Com miffioners, to be ufed as they might think proper be tween him and his country; and, when the danger was otter, he had no doubt that inch honourable men would return him the furplus. This was becoming the ancient character of Ehgliflimen, and would be found fuffieient to free the nation from the imputation of a flop kalinz fpi:it, which had been throufn on them .by the French. He concluded with exprelhing his moll hearty approbation of that part of Mr. Sireri dan's fpfech which declares a reliance on the con do& of Miniflers, that no peace fhould ever be made while there remained a Angle Frenchman in a hoflile fituation on the Englith lhore. Mr. A RC HDA LL combated the arguments of Mr Virndham in few words as to his mod flriking points. He thought that it would have been much better if the Right Hon. Gentleman was a little more witty, or elle that he did not attempt to be witty at all; for by the fudden ebullition of his fancy he was free coently wrong, and might be always fairly fappofed to fall Ihort of what he himfelf had intended. He thought that it was a confederation of no intrinfic worth, whether a forte was to he denominated maf culioe, femininfi r or neuter ? The idea of fatisfying the Lieutenants of the Militia, and the other Officers, the Country Gentlemen in general, the Stockholders, and the Monied intereft, might be buriefqued, but he wilted that every Gentleman when in Office would endeavour to reconcile the minds of all defcriptions of people in the fame manner as be had deferibed. With all the novelty of invafion and rebellion, with all the novelty of the particular circumstances of the -times, he hoped that the SelLoo would not be fair• ed to clofe without every man being reconciled and united in she general idea of doing what they could for the benefit of the country. He hoped that no Gentleman io that Houk, or in.the country. would ever experience or fee troubles In any degree fimilar to thole which he had ften indfilt. — /ror Mat reafnn, as well as his general reliance on the conduct of the prefent Mini(lere, and for the realong fn piswerfttlly ' owed by the Honourable Mover, he Ihouldfeel him fell bound to fopport the motion. Faagcts fait!, that in parliamentarylanguage. :clic.: a thing was rilhr, it Iwcarne the duty of every I.lenther ro fpeak his ntind as to whatever public was then palling. On thia gronnd, he thought that the Hon. Mover mull have &Icor:red two objects fence he had lalt heard him foeak. Ile Lad then 6: lhppnrted the propriety of a Military Council ; he had alio molt iirenttoully fappnrted the ofrers which were laid to be made by an Mull:loth perfonage. T11:11: were objet: which he thought the Hon. Mem ber could not reaJiiy forget ; lie mud therefore con• elude, particularly with refired to the latter, that he mull hive been well informed before he would give inch unqualified fupport to m:n whom he had fo lately oppofed on topics in intimately conneded with that at prefent before the Houfe. The latter objua of his Ipeech had reference to an attachment from which nothing in the world could induce the lion. Gentle. man to fwerve. But there objects did not appear to him as clear as they did to the Hon. Gentleman.— His information perhaps did not come from fo gond a fouree; but when the fad appeared clear to him, when he had obtained that information,•the motion of the Hon. Gentleman Ihould have his molt cordial fupport. . Colonel ClAUroan Lid, we are now about to be. flow a panegyric on thole perfons who are formed into Volunteer Corps, but whore military prowefs is yet unknown to ,the Houfe; he, therefore, thought the motion preceded the lab. ur and valour that ought to gain it: lie would alit every Member in that tinufe, whether there was that merit attached to the Volunteer retake of the country which fome Gentle melt's defer iptive powers have given to it; dude per foils, now the voluntary defenders of the country, had wives, children, and connections dear to them, as well as their property, all of which brought them to a knit of their duty to thenifelves as well as the Government; for they well knew, if the Government is at the mercy of Frenchmen, thefe ohjeds, now fo dear to them, will become die rniferable inllruments of a lawlefs banditti, who could feel no pleafure, that did not arife in every as that would (hock the feelings of the virtuous, and difgrace the name of civilized fociety. Where then is there an oceafion for praife ? Men now felt as they ought to do for themfelves ; let them neglect the Government, and their h winds is gone; let them relax in the necef- Lary fervice they are called 'upon to perform, and their dwellings will become the flaughter.houfes of Frenchmen—all ha ppinefs is ;one, when the - Englifh loft fight of their former (pin: and greatnefs. This is a trying moment, therefore do nut treat men as children, and praife them before they deferve it: if Frenchmen have the folly to venture nn our (bores, Engli:litnen mud gain the laurel by the fword, not by any anterior parade—this was has candid opinion: refped to the praife to be bellowed he Ihould now fay what he thought of them when called into the field, to repel a mercilefs foe : and here he mull give them the genuine tribute of an unbiaffed mind, that whenever the day comes, that the two nations difi.•ute the right of country on our own fhores, Engl:lhmen still convince the enemy of their mad nets in the attempt to invade us, and add a military fame to a name that has for centuries been the dread of a foreign foe. After thefe remarks on the impropriety of the prefent motion, he would call the attention of the Houle to chore brave men under General Grinfield, who recently difiinguifhed them (elves, and who ought to receive the Thanks of the Houfe as they had fought for the laurel, and there. fore were entitled to it—yet no mention had been nude of thefe men's Cervices. If the motion had gone to the praife of merit we had witneffed, then he Ihould be the MI to give his vote to fupport the Motion. The Thanks about to be given by the Houfe would have a bad effect with thnfe perfons, who have often obferved this fpecies of compliment, hut have not received it. It would alto have an un. favourable efFeaupon the military of Ireland, to whom the motion was partly dirt-tied, as the Houfe had not thought proper to exprefs their Thanks before. It would not, in his mind, be Cu well to involve their approbation in the Thanks of the Houfe to thole volunteer Corps who are not yet intitled to Panegyric, not having had an opportunity of 'hewing their courage. Notwithilanding many ob fervations had been made by feveral Honourable Gentlemen in the Houle on his Military Rennks, and his having been repeatedly called a Military Leaurer, it would by no means deter him from re peating thole things which arofe flout long experi ence on the Continent. He Mould, therefore, make an obfervation on German teaks, and alto acknow• ledge, that he once admired the German Army ; but he mull confefs, he at prefent admired the &kith Army. The Hon. Gentleman exprefed his high opinion of the military talents of the King of Prof ile; and after a few remarks on the regulation of his forces, °Verged, that he was for having an increafe of the regular Army in this Country, he had an op portunity of knowing the fincerity of the Regulars, at a period, when they were tried in every way, by the art and wickednefs of many difaffeeted per lons, who wrote circular letters to them in every corner of the Country, to poifon their affeaion, and dellroy their duty to the King. But he believed that every letter received by thefe brave fellows was immediately given to their Officers, with a pro m& of faithful duty to them and the Country. He had to obferve that a Morning Print had hated, that Government were not provided with fufficient arms for the volunteering fervice of the Country: had he made fuch a remark, it would have been objeaed to ; but if this Itatement was true, he thought it necef fary that every Gun-maker from one end the king dom to the other fliould be immediately ordered to fupply Government with the .rims wanted. He was lorry at fuch a moment as the prefent, that an sllufirious perfonage (the Prince of Wales) was not employed, as a General of the Volunteer Corps : he being an objea of univerfal elleem and admire, don, the people would feel an enthufiafm to fere, under his Command, and this would ahO relieve the Duke of York from much bufinefs, as it is impoffible for that Noble Duke to give his attention to the vo luntary fervice, from having the care of the regulars under him. With refpea to the Officers belonging to the Bei India Service, who be underiliw , d had volunteered their Cervices to Government, he thought they might be rendered very ufeful in the Volunteer Corps, till Government maid =ploy them in no • 9 , .ther way. ft had been otofereed by an norktorahle Gentleman of that Houfe, that thole Gentlemen who were acquainted with a warm climate, might be fent to the Welt Indies, where there krvices would be highly valuthle, and prevent the fending of Regiments unacquainted with a warm climate, who would loon peril with difeafe : but this would break the fpitit of thole Officers, and prove very hurtful to the Eati India Service. He muff again repeat, he did not • approve of the prefent Volunteer Corps : in his mind, G .vernment Ihould have laid to the fira clefs, 4 , you young men of the firlt dials, we want your fervices—you molt therefore go, and we will provide for your families—. but we mull have you." Notwithtlanding he had been called a Military Leaurer, yet he would ob. ferve, that we never were in great danger of being invaded while the French were engaged in a Conti nental war.—From the peace of Campo Formic whit the Aufiriane, the latter did not lofe a moment, but let about filling lip their army, as the Archduke can. tidered the peace infecure. The French knowing the Auftrians were prepared with a Rrong military Force, thought it prudent not to make an attack on them. It was thefe Continental agitations between different powers that prevented the invafion of this country. The Hon. Gentleman paid feveral compliments to different Members as to the temperate manner of difcuffing the important queßions which often cams before the Houfe, and he was fatisfied that whatever difference of opinion exified in the Houfe, on political points, no one would carry to his place of retirement for the Summer, the lea animofity towards his po litical opponents. . . _ Lorsitarri.resaca, in explanation, Elated, thitt with refpelt to the Officers belonging to the E.rll In. dia Company now in this country, the tender of their voluntary fervices had been received with that refpeit and attention which afire due to them; bon he could not go fo far as to fay, whether it was in the content. platoon of his Royal Highnefs the Commander in Chief to accept of there very meritorious offers. Col. Outman and Mr. Cit•rvna explained. Lord HAMIUSIORT, though he felt it to be Of very little praftical importance to afcertain the point whether the dangers of the country were greater at any former period than the prefent, he yet thought it right, in confequence of the flatement of the Hon. Colonel who had jug fat down, to make a few ob. fervations on this fulekFt. He contended that the danger was as great, and in many rerpedts much greater, in 1798, than at this day; that the Ft er.ch lorce are at much dillributed in ditfetent parts of the Continent in the occupation of polls In Italy, Ger. many, Holland, and their oom frontiers, as they were at the period alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman ; and the Honourable Gentleman's alTntion, that France had now no fear of a continental diverfion in our favour, was not to be fo confidently tec kined upon ; for it was quite abfurd to fuppofe that France could be engaged in war with fuch a country as England, without looking to the poffibility, nay the probability, of a war with fome Continental Power. The meafure alluded to, however, flood on grounds which required no comparifons of this fort for its defence. Its own merits were fufficient to Inf. tain it. It would be no argnment againfl ir, 'hat at any former period of equal danger Minitlers neglea. ed to adopt an equally vigorous and efficient men. lure. With refpeA to the motion before the Houle, he regretted that at fuch an extraordinary trills as the prefent, Gentlemen ffisuld Stickle about forms and precedents, when it was propoled to thank the gallant men who promptly Rood forth to repel the enemies of their country. The Noble Lord applauded the wife policy of the motion. At future times Englith. men would read this record on the Journals with pride, that in the year lEl°3 their ancellors came foe. ward with a patriotic refolution to preferve their country from foreign dominion, or die. Mr. W. SMITH thought this motion premature, 11 kind of payment made in advance to men, which he hoped they would by future exertions deferve : but, If the contrary Ihould be the cafe, which, however, he did not apprehend, this entry on the journals would have an aukward appearance indeed. As to the tea nor of the Leroy es Mold Bill, he regretted that from the manner in which the VrJunteers were railed, he could not approve of it : many of the older claffes Came forward from honeft loyalty and zeal, and were, in razt, made the jell at chill, of idle worthlefs young fellows, who ought themielves m be okligell to ferve. Mr. SHIRIDAM Mte to reply, and (poke in nearly the following terms:—By the coulter) , of this Honk, any Member who brings fot ward a motion billowed the right of replying to any arguments which may be offered againfl it ; but of this right I fhould not on this occalion avail myfelf, if it were not for Ike very dine perfonal allufions which have been made to me in the course of the debate. I cook's that I feel great furprife that the appeal I have thought it my duty to make to the Houfe, for a vote of thanks to thofe gallant men who have flood forward fo gal. )tinily in defence of all that is dear to us, Mould have provoked a diffentient voice, or produces( a difeuf fion of luch length—now not leis than live or fix hours. This hefitation was not lets furprifing than impolitic; but the conduß of the Right Hon. Gentle man (Mr. Windham) did not by any means furprife I me. That the man who required 24 hours to con. fider of the propriety of putting .'.own rebellion in Ire. land, thou' f wale 5 or 6 hours in inveftigating the po. licy of declaring our gratitude and admiration of the loyalty and exertions of thole who Rood forward to pimea their country in the time of peril, was per. fatly confident; that he fhould have been feconded, however, by the gallant Officer behind him. was ra ther matter of ationiffintent. But before I proceed to remark on the obfervations of both thrift Gentle men, I mull take notice of the appeal which has bres made to me by an Hon. Friend of mine, namely, whether, before I connoted to give my fitment t o Minillers, I had obtained toistation from them upon two points, and made thofe the cornlitions of my sup. port ; fire. as' n the appointment of a Council of War, which I (awaited the other , night, upon the motion of another Hon. Friend of mine. With re. fpeet to this meaftire. I confers that, though on Ilse oecafitin 1 have alldded to, I firesogly advifed its Adm. Linn. I have finee then. in cenfequeace lif iniorma. tion I received from the very higheß authority. had my opinion very atomicity fitaken. if not altlretbee removed; for from this authority I have heard fa .h argun.ents as completely fatiafieii my naiad that the eitablithateat of this GonsmiCiott would be OK may I