Star. — London, England, 1803-03-05 00:00:00

don all were fo anxious he thotili refume ? Tn g oing into the propofed Committee, Gentlemen would not be pledged to vote for any firm of money. lie did not know, he had NO means of knowing, what would be the refill; of the inquiries , of the Committee ; but of this he *as confident,' that it would prove honourable to the Prince of Wales. Sincerely attached to the Prince of Wales, he not only defired that he might be relinred to that dignity which became his rank, but to that true dignity of mind which would be produced by the removal of thole embarraffments, which could not but be difigieeable to his feelings. Let the world enernics of the Prince be put on the Committee, and he was confident they mull give a report favourahle to him. An Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Johnflone) had taken it for granted that the Prince's claim on the Duchy of Cornwall was fa Brice. He did hot pretend to know the fail, but he %%mild afks why did not thole Gentlemen con ni..f'ed with the Pi:ice itate his claipas? The an fiver given to their ilateuitirt by Miniders and the Law OE ers was not li.ll Illefe claims did not exist. His Royal Hightiefs was delired to go to a Court of Law. becaute Parliament could not de cide on the (Hellion. His Royal Highnefs fol lowed this advice, and his claims were in the course of adjudication, when all at once his Majelly's Miniiter comes down with a Meirage, and a pro. polition to giant his Royal Highnefs 60.0001. a ve f ur a limited time. It was, however, very llngulas, that his Royal Highnefi lh. uld have been allow d to do penance for seven years. and that the Ritzht Hon. Gentleman lb- old jail choofe the enriment in Whi . ch lie had prefented his Petition of Right to featch him from his ohfcurity. His Hi n. Friend, who made this motion, had obferved, ' that lie brought it forward without any communi- j cation from the Prince of Wales. This it was fcarctly necefary to obferve ; for it mua he ap parent to eves y one, that fince the year 1795 his Royal Highnefs had evinced a determination to avoid throwing any burihen on the people in cenfequence of his fitnation. His Royal Father bad, however, offered him 60,0001. a year. .1 his offer, however, ;son fooner accepted,than the Right Hon. G.:ntlern.in brings down a Mirage, which gives to the Pt ince the appearance of being the means of increafing the burthens of the country. The E on . Gentleman to whom he had already alluded, had Ahmed, that all the expences of the Prince's education were paid out of the Civil Lift. Ile did not pretend to know how the tabs Rood ; b.it he was certain of this, that the Public had received) lions the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall 234,0c01. and that all that could be let fairly againß it, fo far as the H...ufe knew, was z 6t,00z,•1. for the payment of his Royal Highnefs's debts. The expence of Carlton Houle had been mentioned; but if there culled a Prince of Wales, it was necelfary be fhould have a bottle of that kind to refide in; and it might as well be laid, we will have no i'vince of Wales, as we will have no hook of chat nature. But in his calculation the Hon. Gentleman fhould have conßdered the in terest on the 234,0001. If that were added, it would amount to nearly 600,0001. Then let the a 61,0001. with its intereft, be dedußed, and there would remain due to the Prince a balance of near ly 3oo s oool. This, he contended, was the real Rate of the queltion; &not. let the account be produced. His Royal Highnefs had been called the mold ex penfive Prince of Wales the country ever law ; but it would appear that he had not received from the ' public on an average more than 30,0001. a year, which, he thought, was having a Prince of Wales at a very cheap rate indeed. He knew of no in cumbrances contraded fince the year 2795; but if there were, that was no mean for not going into the inquiry. Gentlemen were fond of crying up economy; but it appeared to him an odd kind of economy to vote 60,0001. a year. merely on the recommendation of the Miniller. and then to refule to enter into an inquiry which pledged them to nothing hut the afcertaintnent of fait'. Bat amidst all this cry of economy, had there been no addition made to the Willies of Public Officers He did not defire that any thing fhould be voted to the Prince of Wales for extravagances, but to se relieve him from thole embarrafTments which pre. vented his affurning that fplendour and dignity which was due to his exalted Ration. His affeaun to the Prince of Wales arofe from a lung reties of :rah of kindnefstowards him on the part ofhis Royal Highnefs. but at prefent he aced as a Member of Parliament fulfilling his duty, and independent of any thing his feelings might en that account dic tate. On the Prince's communication to the I - lonic, lie had declared that he would not refume his Rate and dignity, and his Majelly's Minillers had ad mitted that they knew he could not. What is the reaiiin ? AU lie wanted was, to be let into this fecret, which his Majelly's blinitkrs ackuowledged they themlelves poffeffed. The CHANCELLOR of the EICNECQIER Rated,, that he could take no blame to himielf fur the ' manner in which the Report on his Majefly's Mel: gage had been brought up. He had given notice of his intention to proceed with the meafure in that way, and it was known that the Houk were to go up with the Addrefs after the Report was received. With regard to the prefent queflion, he ' mull own, that he was lorry any thing flionld have occurred to interrupt that harmony which feemed to prevail with refpett to the Bill before the Houle. It was not necefary to declare. that this motion had not been brought forward with the privity of his Royal Highnefs the Prince of Wales. He knew it could not. He had thought it his ditty ro make his Royal Highnefs acqnaiated with the Melfage before it was delivered to the Houfe, and he had the fatithraioa to learn. that it was ap t., oved by the Prince. The account which had been prepared, and the motion intended to be made, were silo communicated to that .111tiftrious Perfonage, and he had the fatisfaltion of alluring rise Hotife that they both obtained his unqualified approbation. He was, therefore, certain he fhould have been informed of the circumftance which had occurred, if his Royal Highnefs had defigned to countenance the proceeding. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman who (poke lag had Rated, that he was delimits his Majefly's Meffage fhould Le amended, and that the Houk fhould carry their' liberality farther than what teethed to he the in tention of Minifters. The Hon. Gentleman who fpoke &ft had, on the contrary, endeavoured to give an interpretation to the Meffage, %%Ilia, he contended, was not anfwered by the vote of the Houle. He had, however, one great objection to urge to all that had been flated. He would not fay that the Houle could not grant money to the Prince of Wales in confequence of an inquiry of the kind propofed ; but it would he recolle&ed that it was one of the wifeil principles that go verned the praflice of Parliament, that no bur then could be impnfed on the people without a re com mendationprevint,ll y received Irom the Crown. How then could any Member go into this Com mittee with the view of afterwards granting money, when he :could not tell whether this necelfary fanetion could be obtained ? The Houle then could not Itir a ftep in the Wines without a recommen• dation from his Majelly, and as he had received no inftrudions to that etre& if an addrefs were moved fu , fucha purpofe, he lhould conceive it his ditty to oppofe it. With regard to the debts which his Royal Highnefs (till conceived hirnfelf bound in honour to difcharge, they could °illy be of two kinds. Either debts which were not delivered into the CommifGoners in the year :795, or others which had been fince contradtd in defiance of the late Al of Parliament. It would therefore be a very inconfiltent proceeding in the Houfe to adopt any meafure which would fiippofe the exillence of fuch debts. It was impoffible his Majelly . i. Taft Mefige could have any fuch tendency, becaufe it would have been improper to prefume that any new debts had been contras ed fence the year a 795. The debts alluded to might be perfectly honoura ble, and filch as it was natural his Royal High nefs thould be anxious to difcharge, hut they could not be recognized by the Houfe. When the idle dole of the Prince's debts was made up, they were listed to amount to 6a0,0001. His Hon. Ft iced, who was then Chancellor of theExcliequcr, thought it proper however to make the vote extend to 650,0001. ; but notwithflanding this caution the debts given in before the time limited greatly ex ceeded that fum. The debts which had beengiven in were accordingly fati.fied to that amount, and others were, for reafons he thould not now (late, taken by his Royal Highnefs on himlelf. In fpesk ing of the manner in which the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall had been difpoled nf, an Hon. and Learned Friend of his had laid, that his Royal Highnefs had a claim, not on the liberality, but on the juflice of the Houle, and bad added that the refult of profccuting the Prince's claim would be to place him in a favourably lituation. —He was not Co prelumptuous as to entertain an opinion on the fubjcd, but he had reafon to fuppofe that his Hon. and Learned Friend, when he made this declaration, could not have taken the opinions of the higheft law authorities on the queftion. He well knew that the Noble Lord at the head of the Law had never expreired himfeif but in a way w'aich was unfavourable to the Prince's claim.— The Noble Lord at the head of chi Law in Ire land had not been confulted, and therefore it was not known whether or not his opinion was favoura ble. He had been in hopes that, on the prefent fubjed, every one would have abtlained from lay ing any thing that might tend to excite uneafy feelings • but - fince the Petition of Right had been fo often ' alluded to, he 'lnuit declare that that mea fore had not influenced him in the propolition he bad made to the Houfe. He agreed, however, with thole who armed that there was no difgrace in a comprocnife ; and if others thought that a ground for (appoint's the meafure, he fhould make no objection to it. The (latements made by the Hon. Gentleman opprifite to him, he believed, were pretty accurate. The charges incurred by the Public, for his Royal Highnefs the Prince of Wales, exceed the receipts from the Duchy of Cornwall by about t 7,0001. Under fuch eircum- Otani:es was it to be fappofed that his Majefty's Minifters thould be afraid of difctiffing the quer tion agitated by the Petition of Right. It appear. ed to him much more fuitable to the real dignity of the Prince of Wales Modell, that lie thould continue fome time loner in that (late in which all regretted to fee him, than that Parliament (humid fandion debts which it could not, confillent with its former proceedings, allow. I Mr. Fox exprefted great furprife at hearing the prefent defcribed as an indite& quettion. Of all the motions he had ever heard diftuffed in Parlia , ment the prefent appeared to him one of the molt fimple, and the molt plainly deducible from his Majelty's Mcffage. If the motion was, however, conceived to be of this dired nature, it had been attempted to be got rid of in a very odd wav, by reforting to an expedient which was confetfedly in ' dired, and that was by moving the previous quef tion. The Right Hon. Gentleman who fpoke lag had flatted feveral objeflions to the motion. Of thefe oblations the moll ftriking were, that it was impoffible to proceed in the inquiries which the propoled Committee was to purfue, or at hall to found any meafure on the Report, without previ ()oily receiving the recommendation of the Crown. To this objection the anfwer was eafy. This mo tion, in the firft inflame, had not any dire& con nation with any grant for railing money. It was betides to be confldered that the general Conllitn tional principle to which the Right Hon. Gentle-, man had referred admitted of innumerable excep- I titan. In every Sefllnn it was almoft unneceffary for him to remind the Houle, that a variety of meafures were adopted in confeqtienee of particu. tar motions, which in their confequences involved a . grant of money; and thic ton without any pre vious recommendation from the Crown. The pre fent motion was indeed one which obvinufly refult ed from the words of the Meffage. He did not pretend to quote the exprefs words, but they ge nerally conveyed the idea, that filch an eftablifh ment Ihould be formed for his Royal Highnefat as would enable him to reftome the dignity adequate to hisilluftrinus nation. For this purpofe,the annual fum of 60,0001. had been propored by his Majefly's Minifters. A communication from the Prince had Rated, that thie fum was, in the prefent fituation in which he was placed, incompetent to this objet ; and if Gentlemen, on this ground, thought the pro vifion inadequate, he begged leare toafk, whether in inq•iirinp; Into the. eaufe of this incomriericy, they were not fallow tip and obeying the ob.' fief/ and fpirit of the Meita-ge 'e On. a former day, rutty 1:1,) ind pf , ;:hds had been voted by the Houle fw. the re-eflahlilhnient of his Royal ll' .;11. nefs's fplendour and dignity. From die authority it had been (fated to the Ilou a that t:6S turn was inadequate, and therefore the Houle Lad a right to know what circumaances prevente,: the liefuniption of that o.ll)lAm:int, which n a: 1; much the fubiect of general desire and expetta tion. This, indeed, had been put in to clear a point of view by an Hon urahole Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) tinder the Gail: t y, that it was unnecel City for him to trefpafs long on the attention oldie Houle. In the Meirage of his Majcily the Houle were apprized at his anxious defire that his Royal Highnefs fhotild, as Ilion as poilible, be placed in a fit nation to refit me h is full eltabl (lime!) t. The Pr ince had unequivocally flitted that certain circumllances operated as °lsaac:es to the relit mption of his dig- nay. What therefore was a more diainft tight orl • a mme plain duty than that the Hattie lhould be aoptized of the nature of thefe oh-lacks ? Was it thus to b: undertiord that, whatever the nature ofl thefe obstacles were, ilia they we•e :mm diately to be removed, and that the Prince was, as a matter of comae, to appear In all the fplendour in st ca he ought to appear as Heir Apparent to the Paha Throne? Certainly Tv) filch conchtlion was'' fairly to be dray n. All hat was contended fot ' was tiro, ly, that every obltacle lhould be remov ed, if it could he removed by the Members rf the Houle in a manner confißent with the exec cite of their public ditty. If the °Hades were of that nature which could be removed without materially adding to the hutdens of the People, be thould certainly feel itrongly inclined • to vote for difcharging dick incumbrances, though he would not go fo far as a Right Honourable Gentleman, to whole fentiments he had particu larly alluded. But what the real nature of the ob. Rade was lie had not the means of ditcovcring.— A Right Hoo. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Lechcquer) had laid, that the Houle were not at liberty to fuppofe that thefe obstacles arafe from the accumulation of any new debts, becaufe the I Houle had no right to prefume that the amount of die debts of his Royal Highnefs was greater than deleribed in the accounts prepared by the Commiffioners in Ins. This teemed to him a molt lirange kind of affertion, and with a very Ifmall degree of ingenuity, it appeared cafv to prove that it was fundamentally erroneous. the Hon. I Gentleman was, however, quite Mocked at the idea. Iu 1795 the amount of the Prince's debts was calculated at 630,0001. andbeyond this lum no one is to venture to edimate their extent. The lan guage of the Right Hon. Gentleman was fingular. "Phe Houfe were now to he told that they were not even to fuppofe the exigence of any excels beyond this etlimate,.and this too at a tin::: when the exit tenet of fuch an esc:fs was folly ascertained. The ecißenee of Tome difference betwixt theeflimateand the aftual amount was naturally to be accounted for. This was found in domeftic economy, even in the (mallet eflablifhment. -It was, therefore, not to be wondered at, that under the cireumflances in which the amount of the Prince's debts were after tained,an excels to an amount confiderably beyond the original eftimate, Ihnuld be found to exitl.— If, therefore, Poch an excels exifted, on the face of papers and documents already before the Houfe, it was not fit that (peculation lhould,be left continually at work on this fubje&—The whole of the bonnets ought to be fully and un equivocally explained. As to the claims which I his Royal Highnefs poffeffed on the public, a good I deal had beea advanced, in the courfe of the dif : cualon to which the matter had given tile. On the fubjett of the right of the Prince to the arrears of the Duchy of Cornwall, the Houle had heard from ; a Right Honourable Gentleman(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) that the preponderance of opinion was hoftile to the right. But it appeared that a reties of continual fet-offs were the principal argu ments :spina the right. Was it, however, to be • tolerated, that if the matter had been brought to a fair dilcualon betwixt the Prince and his Royal Father, the claim of the expellee of education might have beets let up and fuccefsfully pleaded ? Such a plea never could have proceeded from the real lovers of Monarchy. The Honourable Mem ber illußrated this part of the fubjett with his ufoal admirable force of reafoning and Rrength of argument. He ridiculed very happily the ar. gument, that if the Prince's claims had been fully confidered, they would have been found nugatory. The Pimple flatement of the cafe was, that the Prince was anxious for the profecution of his claims; that the matter was nearly brought to an iffue, and at that moment kiloliters had con tented!, by offering a considerable equivalent for : the forpention of the privets, though they ktfew that the party to which this equivalent was offer : ed, had not the flighteß chance of fuecels in the ipmfecution of thefe claims. The condua of the Prince on this occafion formed a ftriking contrail to every thing like a dithonourable compromife. Senfible of the importance of supporting an ella blifhment fuitable to his rank, he gratefully received I the prnpofition which the Houle, in its liberality, hadadopted. Therewas,however,anotherconfider ; ation not lets important, and this his Royal High. nets had attended to with Rill more ferupulous care. With thankfulnefs he had received the offer which the unfolicited liberality of Parliament had con ferred ; but it was equally due to his own charac ter, and to the charatter of Parliament, to let die Public clearly underßand the fituation in which their liberality would place him. He had cau tioned the Houfe and the Public againft the in dulgence of expettatione which at this moment it was unpogible to realize. It was imp - Able to conceive any line of celgdne more calculated to raife his Royal Highnefs in the opinion of ever% one capable of appreciating the excellencies of character. The Hon. Member, after dwelling a good deal on this idea, proceeded to (late and tr compare the various fums advanced in behalf o' his Royal Highnefs at different periods. H. ['sewed that many of the incumbrances of hi Royal Highnefs were the elle& of unavoidabl. attires, and were the natural rc(uk of circ umtlauees peenliar to his fituation. At this period, when it was pi ofc.ffedly the itrentmn of Parliament to entbre the comfort and fopport the dignity of his Royal Higlinets, according to the terrhs or his Majetty's 4,:leti.ve, it was efferni.al th it he fhould be fairly and honoarably dealt with. if he WAS to be placed in that ftir and cnembarraffed lituation every loyal inchvidnal f , anxiaufly defined, it was but an a& of common plaice that the nature a - the ohflacits which obfli tklect this molt detirabie ar rangcment fhoidd be latisfaaorily He taw no better way of .11 . ce? taining their nature han by the Committee whicl: had been propofed, and tli.refote it had his decided lopport. Colonel GROSVENOP. WAI n‘ly fnpported the mo tion, :and earnellly hoped that fumething might immediately be done to enable his Royal Highnefs to refume that kind of Eftahlifhment in which his birth, and the nature of the Conllitution, required him to be placed. Sir W. W. IVym Nit was of opinion that through• out the whole of the tranfadion, his Royal High nefs the Prince of Wales had b c•: extremely ill ufed. fie anzinufly hoped .hat the Hon. Gentle• man who brought forwird the prefent motion, would exert his heft endeavours to accompla rite ohj Ct which i• had ill view. The plan propofed by the R , giit Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer i❑ his mind, proved inadeluate t.: place his Royal Highn:fs in that rima.ion wh:ch it :eerilei to be the general with of the Hoof: ;And of the na• tion that he Ihoold be placed. For it thould be re• colleCted that the ityle and fplendoue a Prince of Wales's Eitabinhment, he fritab'e to the dignity and grandenr of the United Kingdom. Lord STANLEY rule merely to put a quell ion, to wit—Whether all the meafures which were now brought forward liMinitters, relpeCting the affairs of the Prince of Wales, had received the complete approbation of his Royal Highnefs ? He, fur one, uuderftood it to be otherwile, or at leaft that Come alteration different from what he expelled, had been made in the manner in which the communi cation refpedling his lactation had been made to the Houle. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHECUJER declared, that no alteration whatever of a material nature had been made in the Ratement which his Royal Higlinefs had approved of. The only omiffion, if any occurred, was of fume exprefiinns contained in the communication of 1783, which were omit ted becaufe inferences might now be drawn from them, for which the prefent cafe left no loom. Mr. ERSIINt obferved in explanation, that he was wholly ignorant of the tendtncy of the Hon. Gentleman's motion, until it was Rated to the Houfe. The objeta of the motion Teemed to him to be, that a Committee be appointed to inquire into the amount of the funs which may be requifite to enable his Royal Highnefs to refume hi, houfe. hold, and to offer that tuns to his Majefly, in order that his Majefly might accomplifli his vrifhes ref - peeling the renewed ellabli(brnent of his Royal Highnefs. Upon Ibis queftion he fhould give his vote as an independent Member of Parliament, and not as any way influenced by the libation which he held under his Royal Highnefs. Much had been Paid about the opinion of our legal authori ties refpeding the claims of the Prince to the reve nues of the Duchy of Cornwall during his mina. rity : it happened that he was never absent, except once, when that quellion was under the confider. ation of •the Houfe; but he might venture to fay, that no one profeillonal Gentleman had given a decided opinion againft the title of his Royal High nefs to the revenues of the Duchy of Cor.w ill— not even the Learned Lord who now fo ably pre. fides in his Majelty's Court of Law. But ail aloe opini ins to whatever fi de they might in c li n e, ~ ~e wholly foreign to the prefent queftion. It was hie opinion that the Houfe thuuld en.ible his Mat, sty to fulfil his paternal and royal intentions refoetaing his Son's fituation, and that if the fpecitie rum propofed was not fufficient to enable his R )val Highnefs to fupport and maintain his due dignity, the Houfe (bout& come forward and offer hi. Md. jelly the further means of accomplifiting an objea which his Majefty, the Houle, and the •nation, feemed equally to have at heart. • Mr. Capin ino laid he was not difinclined to ante for the motion ; but in voting for it, he did not intend to pledge himfelf to concur in the retsina. mendation which might be fuggefled by the Cam. mitten. His opinion might in a great meafurelde. pend upon the eircumfiances which the Report 01 that Committee might difcble. As to the eadf. lion Will, whatever might be the opinion (mei , tained by Come Gentlemen, he could ass -help con lidering the Prince as completely tve in it. The propofal did not come from t rince , b ut ori ginated in the advice of Mi Rers. Whether. thereforehlig. therefore the application was i t timed or not, or whether it was confiftent with the regulation of 1795, he fhould not now confider: Ise was de limits that a vote lhould be given on the prefent queftion without looking backwards or forwards. but merely to the prefent quellion itfelf. The Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Each& quer has propofed a certain funs, namely, an ad dition of 60,0001. or yt,cool. to the income of his I Royal Highnefs—that funs is found inadequate to fulfil the objeft for which it was propofed, and here his doubts began. For he felt anxious to know what was the precife (Aka to be obtained, and what was the amount of the turn requisite for its accons plifliment. On this point he was not prepared to deliver an opinion, but when he was informed of the turn to be propofed, and il the objett to which it was to be applied, then he might be able to fay, whether the objea was worth that turn or not.— All he now knew was that the film propofed was inadequate to the attzinmept of the obirtt, the ac complifisment :If which the H ,, ufe had in vier . But until the preeife amount rit that (in was at: certa'ned, he fbould not pledge himleli to any par titular rneafiire. Mr. Fotcra in esplanatinn eery wartvilr elponf tit the motion, mid aimed the Home that nothing fhould deter him from giving it his mod de.;nicd Cipport. Mr. GOLDIN 0 expreffedliis convitflimt that every neans fhould be afforded to his Royal High-lea to ref 'me, as loon as priffile, the ipkndour and dignity fiiitoblo to his birth and rank. [Toro ewr.