Star. — London, England, 1803-05-25 00:00:00

. . • r • • • • • • • 1 . I , 4 1 P . I _• j ~, ; I I I i I • ; 1 . 1 • t . • ! , 11 ; z i t - 1 t " ' i 1 I 1 1 I I ' ~. , . 1 , . 1 ' 1 • . ; I i 1 t , ' • . fl • ' i , ..' II I 1 1, . I , . , • ... :. ' j . r 4 ° ' t ' 0 I • i; ' , I t • i II. I L • / 1 r• I I t tit I 1 i ~. 14?! I ~~ ~•~, ..~ , ~ , Or key of trryrt .was7oNa former occalllnnate3 bl• 111,tithold) to be in.t the kty of Egyrt. :0•• thing elle inportnot tn this countr. wnrn pl,;t:r. I , and no doubt pally, exclainird, " it kid nut Malta would yno lay you could tint tel..; an Abeicrombic and his brave rtm ',anions in arm, to drive the Fiend] from 1:;,. pt i•' 11c anfs‘cred, with as much inflict and as much tr.•.:mpii, that tri;doribtedly you could. A Rizlit Nl.niber Ir. ) who ipoke with inch extiaordi /1 try power, of eloquence lair mot, had, tartwith handing, made a trifling mittake, which in his blaze of and of figurative defeription was ov:A 10.•ked at the time, brit which he ihould bug leave now to c.urcEl ; that was, defcribing the Chief Con ful 1 7 ::ince, he had laid that I.e wars like a lea of liquid Me, whi.:ll detlroyed every thing which was I tmfortunat: cut , tigh to come in contra with it. In this it appeared to him that the Right Hon. Gentle- In.:n had, though pet:raps unintenti,.nally, confound ed the Revolutionary with the Confillar Attribute. There was. a mare important point to which he called the attention of the Houle, tohrch was, that a French offivial publication (the Monirenr) had arrived this morning, containing an offer of the Ruffian Govern ment to guarantee the independence of the Wand of Malta. He had no doubt of the truth of this flate ment, and he thought that if it were trite, a copy of fuck document ought to have been laid upon the tisle of that Horde. A Right Hon. Gentleman op )v rite (Mr.fitt) had laid, that there was no fatasfac tt ry information obtained by our Government with se''Ocel :n the million of Colonel Sebafliani to Egypt:l Mr. PITT here begged the Hon. Member's pardon j fur endeavouring to let him right. He was confident ' of the fairnefs of the Hon. Member's intentions when he quoted any obfervation which fell from any other Member of that Unsafe, and therefore knew that he j would pardon this interruption. What he had faid was, tha- the excrtfe which had been offered might I be admitted as fair, with refpeCl to the publication of the pamphlet, brat that it could not Rand in era• fon as a ground of defence for the minion, as Colonel Sebaftiani's miflinn had commenced before the pub lication of Sir Robert Wilfon's Report. Mr. WH traa FAD refumed. He thanked the Right Honourable Member for letting him right, and Aim ed him and the Houfe that it was far from his inten tion to quote the words of any Gentleman incorreei ly, or to mifinterpret his meaning, however he might fail of underflanding with that clearnefs which was weceffary for repetition. He then read a few words from the papers prefented by Lord Hawke(hury this day, fitting that the Chief Conful was willing to ad mit that Raja, Außria, and Pruffia, fhould guaran tee the independence of Malta. This was a circum. fiance which Ire thought important to the decifion of the queflion now before the Houk, he had therefore isad thole few words, that Gentlemen might fee how far the fubjeei might be Rill open to future diletalion. According to the Ultimatum - of Minders, Malta was the 1-ale °Neel of difcuffinn, and upon which they recalled our Ambaffador, and here was an offer to kede that point. As to the Cifalpine Republic, which bad been alla.dged by fome as a matter of aptgran clixemert on the part of France, that was formally and ninly recognized by the Treaty of Amiens, i with Bonaparte at their head. That could not now be fairly urged as any objets of contention. He apo. logized for having lb long taken up the attention nt the Houle, and concluded with giving his moll cordial fupport to the !notion of his Right Hon. Friend. Mr. I).ULAs ("Verve& that the !ITN , et before the Finnic bad been laid to embrace two diffikt points, rind an amendment had beets moved, pledging the Poole to a firm and unanimous fupport of the war, and at the fame time omitting any fentiment which Conveyed the idea of approbation refpefiing 'he con duet of his Majcftv's Government. In his opinion, if the condutt of Miniiiers was improper, the war mull confequently be unjuft, and if (midi, it moil there fore he mineccliary. On the fubjeft of the conduaft of Miniffers, he was willing to come to due with there Donous,able Gentlemen oppofite (Mr. Grey and Mr. Whitbread). The papers on the table-gave the moll indubitable proof of Minifiers having frequently made I applications to the French Government on different points, but in vain. It was evident then that Mini. tiers had tried every thing they had any hopes of fuccefs in, but without limed's, and that after that they made their application to that Houfe ; indeed plain reafon and candour would induce us to believe that thofe who had fo lately made a peace would en deavour to keep it, if poffible, for fome length of time for their own reputation's fake, if they had no ideas of patriotifm or philanthropy within their breaft, and, with the want of which, as Gentlemen, and men of honour, he could not think of accufing them. It may be laid that he had evinced a with, or art anxiety, to find Minifters in the right ; but he willed Gentle men to be affured, and he wilbed the public at large throughout the country wherever the matter fhould be fpoktn of, to be affured, that when any queftion was at Ate between us and a foreign nation, he felt he had a with, an anxiety fisperior to all others—he felt a Rrong &fire to find his country in the right.— It appeared further that Minißers, in their endeavour to maintain peace, and to jultify themfelves in the eyes of she world, had made every ceflion but the lall, and that La he was glad to find, they had not made. With reference to the ohjeft of Colonel Seballiani's m:111. , n, it was evident from all the different circum fiances and accounts coileftively, to what his views were ultimately directed. But the bell account of all was one from an authority we could not quellion on fuels a point, and that was the account which was given by Bonaparte laimfelf, and which gave the moll corres pi Rare of the features of his mind : he laid, • ra I will not now take Egypt, I will not meddle with it now," not becaufe of any idea of honour that he entertained, for he believed he had none ; not for any idea if ref,-eet to Tr easy ; not for any idea of that faith v hick lb sold lubfill between rations ; hut lays II:, (hewing hi. own piatue molt completely drawn, hccairfe I think I (hall get more by it another way ; that is, becattfe I expel the decay of the Ottoman Empire, probably fome partition of their tea ritory, peth.y , , or lime ( - inure arrang,emeid ctirh the Porte. all•ratiot to the propofal for rh: exchange of TAy unitiirn he could only Inprofe th tt idea to ex rl i . limilar to all at sv!,a. - 11 had butt fat flrotinlv a.'a•fy aslod lay:moth:A - Honourable Gentleman it: l ai r rte—a principle ,frviiie, r.l plun. der, and ~ f thoa isht r,!)l , try. If w e ucrc once to thi.dt of `;viol tap Malta. tit 111,111,1 'IV, think of giving up Egypt, we Ibuuld idfo think of giving up our poffettons in the `aft Tidies, and with thofe Ire thould think of givirg, up the means of peace and freedom throughout the world ! General MA IT tits o begged the indidgence of the Ho u le fo r a few iniunte , , while he endeavcsured to ft.tllow the Hon. Gentleman who (poke lad, and to oppufe the narrow ground, of policy which diet:teed any opposition to the unanimity of the Houfe, in fup• porting with its every nerve the defires of our molt gracious Sovereign, and relenting the infults which had in revitedly been offered to him and to our country. The documents upon their table appeared to him tocontain futficient,indeed, moll ample grounds for war; and, lie thould be inclined to think that his Majelty's Minillers were highly culpable if they had not brought down fuch Melfage tram his Majesty as they mid brought. The infult which they had publifhed againit our Commander in Chief in Egypt was, through him, an iniult on his Majesty, whom he reprefented, and, through his Majelty, an intuit on the people of England, of whom he is the parent and the head. The reparation, he thought, was worfe than the injury, as he &fired us to curtail what is the boaft of Englilhmen, and the bulwark of the fubjefts' rights—the Liberty of the Preis. When he found Malta was in the Ultimatum of Miniders, he would not confider for a moment, whether it was a barren rock or one of the richelt commercial countries ; it was fufficient for him that he found it in the Ultima tum, and from that, neither menaces nor appre beau-to of any probable danger thould force him to secede. He was determined rather to make any fa• crifice which his country would call upon him to make, than give up one iota of what that Ultimatum contained. Mr. ELLIOTT fupported the Addrefs,and dwelt with particular energy on the ambition of the Firlt Conful, which, he ohferved, had proceeded with accumulated velocity from the figping of the treaty of Amiens to the prefent moment. The principal point appeared to him to be Malta, although there were a variety of other acts of aggreffion on the part of France. There mig''t be fome al,draa its the way of appointing a Maltefe superior, but there could be no obltacle to the leaving the Ifland independent of French authority; and any with ctprelfed to that effect he confideted ought, at all events, to be remonllrated against in the fit inflame ; and, if it were Willed on, thould be *elided with all the ftrength, with all the courage. and refources of Engliihmen. The integrity If the Torkifft Empire the Prints Conful had guaranteed, and yet that fame Prime Conful had not only been le r. try within his mind, but openly and avowedly me diming the deltrudion and partition of that Empire which he has to guaranteed ta preferve or to refpeet. After feveral other obfervations on the conduet of Bonaparte fence the time of figning the Treaty ef Amiens, particularly his military commercial agents,' the Hon. Member concluded with exprelling not on ly his defire, but his firm belief that linglithmen would unite with manly and becoming fpiri., to op pofe the encroachments and the iodides of filch tower ing ambition. Serjeant BEST vindicated the condo& of Minillers from the conclufion of the Treaty of Peace down to the period when the accumulated infults of die French Government towards this country compelled ', them to withdraw our Ambaffador from Paris. ' Mr. CANNING was adonithed that any d albs could remain in the mind of any mail as to the jullice of ' our quarrel, after perofing the mafs of evidence con tained in the papers on the table. He then touched isponthe molt prominent points ofthecorrelpondence, to prove that the aggreflion was clearly on the fide of France. He made the fame referve of opinion as to the conduCt of Muniltry, as had been made by Mr. Elliott. Lord Havelessuey offered a few obfervations by way of explanation of a laut. With refpeet to the guarantee of Ruffia for Malta, it was the opinion of his Majelty's Government, that even if that Power had accepted the offer to garrifon the island, no &Oi ta/lion could be derived from it. Mr. Fox (poke to the following pnrpott :—After the very long difcoffion which this fobjea has under gone—after the very able manner in which it has been treated by Gentlemen on both fides—after the very full and comprehenfive way in which my Ho. nourable Friend, by whom the Amendment was pro poled,invelligated all its details, I thould be unwilling to trefpafs on the attention of the Houfe if I did not feel it my abfolute duty to the People of England to make even this attempt, whatever fuccefs I may be likely to have, to urge the Houfe to interpofe its counfels and influence to preferve the country from that calamity which, if it can be avoided, it isin the highett degree deferable, with a view to efcape the certain and admit mifery which mutt refult from it. In the firft inflance 1 mutt obferve upon the opinion advanced by an Honourable Friend of mine (Mr. T. Grenville), whom, whatever may be the difference of our fentiments upon political topics, I hope I may Rill call my friend ; and among thofe differences I am to clefs that to which I am about to refer, even though it happens to be thpported by the Right Hon. Gentleman who Las fpoken left. The lentiment I mean is thie, that the propriety of acceding to the motion for the Addrefs in anfwer to his Majeßy's Meiage, is quite a diftiat qusfti in from the confe deration of the coracle& of his !staidly's Miniflers, and that the two queftions ought to be feparately in veßigated ; but 1 contend that they are in their na. tore mfeparable; that the dittinetion which my Hon. Friend would require is utterly impracticable, that they arc jointly implicated ; for it appears to me impoifible to enter into the examination of the policy of the war without alto taking into view the proceed. ings of the Adminiftration which produced it.— Againft this as a general principle I mutt enter my protaft, hut the application of it in this inßance is particularly inadmidible, bccaufe, upon the doctrines laid down by the advocates of the addrcfs themfelves, the necellity of the war mutt depend upon its *plaice, and that jußice cannot Curdy be determined but by a reference to the conduct of thole who were con cerned in the neguclation which has terminated in war. The degree of infult or injury alledged to have been offered to this country by the French Govern ment can only be decided by a confideration of all the attendant cireumitances, whether any applica tion for redrefs had been made, the time and manner of making it, and whether proper redtels has been refilled In looking at thofe points, which arc necef farily conneeted with the difcnflion of an Addrefs which goes to pl-sdye the Country to war, I would ail. of Gattlemeet, how they cot o contrive to overlook the condo& of Milliners, or to 'keep it out of this night's debate ? If they, will take the trouble of look ing a little at the Addrefs, it mull be obvious, I think, that they cannot, continently, perfitt in this opinion ; for the Addrefs, in explicit terms, allures his Majetly, that the Houfe is fully convinced of his tincere and uniform efforts to preferve the Peace.— Boit taking the Metrage as the words of Minifters, I would :A my Honourable Friend and the Right Honourable Gentleman under the gallery, are they really difpnfed to thank Minifters for their efforts to preferve peace—they who have generally condemned thole efforts ? and on the other hand. are they ready to declare, that the efforts of Milliners to preferve peace have really been uniform ? If they do not think fo, they cannot in conftttency vote for the Addrefs. If they do, I am not inclined to go along with them. The Amendment comes more immediately within what I take to be the right conception of the fubjeft. To that Amendment, indeed, my Honourable Friend (Yates no objeai'n. With not one word of it, he fays, would he difagree, but that he willies for unani mity, and therefore would not oppofe the original Addrefs. Now, if that original addrefs contains nate monis diredtly adverfe to the many Gentlemen with whom I have the honour to aft, if not one fentiment in the amendment would be difagrecable to my Hon. Friend, or thole conneeted with him ; and if, as the noble Lord who propofed the addrefs laid, Minifters do not with to obtain any declaration of approval from the Houfe upon their conduit, it (hikes me very clearly that the molt effeEtual way of fecuring una nimity would be to vote for the amendment. The Right Hon. Gentleman under the gallery is defirous to avoid any allufions to Minifters upon this day.— This is rather a fingular decition ; btu no doubt he don't mean long to perfift in this kind of abflinence, probably not longer than till to-morrow, when, as a motion for papers is to be brought forward, the Right Hon. Gentleman will, in all likelihood, reform his operations againft Minifters, and to be lure he will have his ufual affittants. The Milliners will not, I fancy, enjoy a very long refpite ; but I am really iiirprifed at the indulgence they have experienced in the courfe of this debate. I have been fo much out of political life that I am not very competent to judge of the private intrigues which may now prevail ; but it feems to me very odd that Gentlemen fhould have taken this fudden refolutiott ; fo perhaps it may be in refiteet to the pretence of an able and Olive Member who has been fo long unable t attend this Honfe (Mr. Pitt), and who is now in his place ; perhaps it proceeds ft om the profound deference they entertain for this dittingoithedorator; perhaps theyhaveagreed awning tliemfelvcs in tilde terms, " we (hall let Mi niners Mime to-day ; we (hall abftain from their dif putes, as he is here, but he will be away to-morrow, and we than have at them." (a loud laugh.) But whe tiltt this he the underltanding of thole Gentlemen, and whether it be really the refult of the concert and the motives I have defcribed, I hope the Houfe will fa n have the means of judging by really hearing the opinions ot the Right Hon. Gentleman I have alluded to as to the fyllean which Milliners have purfued.— I troll that fome opportunity will offer of knowing :he real tentiments of that Right Hon. Gentleman upon this fubjett, that they will he declared openly and fully ; but whatever that Right +lon. Gentle• man's opinion may be, I regret that the fufpenfe which teems to prevail refpeaing it Ihould have pro duced inch ltrange effeas here to-day. I profcfs my fell a warm friend to the freedom of detrate ; and though I feel as much pleafure in hearing the Right Hon. Gentleman as any man in this Houle, becaufe I really admire his eloquence, yet I am not fo fond of it to with him often here, if his pretence is fo much to interfei c with the freedom ordifeunion ; for I thould be lorry to wiutefs fuch filence on the part of Come of the ableft men in this Houle, who have not in the courfe of this debate made one remark on the admi ni Illation of public affairs; though upon almoft every difcuflion heretofore, whether of a motion for papers, or a thort adjournment, or any other quellion, they never fuffered thole who had the management of thee affairs to efcape without Rime animadverfion. But to return to the confideration of the jtiftice of the war, I fay again, that on the queftion as to juftice, it is ma terial to examine all the alleged circumftances of pro vocation ; the time and manner in which reparation was alked for itifult, and fatisfaaion for injury ; and the confequences of filch applications. If this be ad mitted as neceffary, and I think it cannot be denied that a review of the conduft of Knitters is inevi table in the courfe of fuch an examination ; and the neceflity of the examination is obvious, before the Houfe can come to a decifion upon the queftion now before us. Many general principles have been hated in the courfe of this debate, as to the proper grounds of war, from the greaten number of which I differ; and many general principles upon this fubjeft have been attributed to me, than which nothing can be farther from my mind ; but I have no hefitation in laying down a pofition which is fanairmed by all the reading I have had upon the fubjeet, that infults, diftinguithed from :Aetnal injuries, could not form the grounds of war ; it is the refufal to grant a proper reparation for infult that conftitutes the injury.— When filch reparation is refilled, there can he no doubt of the julliee of feeking for it by force ; but in judging of the policy of reforting to loch force, the mode of remonftrance and the reply mull be taken into account. Applying this principle to the cafe before the Houfe, how can a difeullion of the con duet of Mininers be avoided ? but in reference to the &eneral principle, the difference bstween infults and injuries offered to States, is this, that in the one cafe the demand of reparation fhould be uniformly made, and in the other, in every instance except where the delay of alking redrefs might deprive a Power of redrelfing Well. With refpea to the con duift of France referred to in his Majesty's Declara tion, I contend that every ad of Frame relpeding other countries fence the Treaty of Amiens cannot he fairly adduced, with regard to this country, as a jun ground of war. I do not mean to lay that we would not be juftified in refining any fpiiit of aggrandif-- ment which threatened to endanger the security of other (Wes; the laws of nations and felt defence would call for loch refinance, and the dignity and confeqnence of this country would warrant an inter. ference in favour of any nate which might be oppreff ed by an ambitious neighbour. Indeed, the juice and interells of the country mould urge us to give our proteaion to the fmaller powers ; hut the attempt at interference or proteetion &mild be regulated by the profpc6t of iamb we fhould cot commit ourtelves incathionfly, for we might thus degrade ourfelves and injure the party we meant to ferve. This obfervation is particularly applicable in conlidering the conduct of Miniilers with refpea to France, and the conduct of France with refpea to Come f the powers on the Continent. And I think it necefrAry here to re- mark, in reply to the Noble Lord who opened this debate laft night, that any a& of aggreflion by France, againit any continental power, neceffarily implied malevolence towards this country. This is a doEtrine which never was Willed on before refpecl ing the conduct of any European power—it was not hinted at when the partition of Poland took place; it was not then raid that any of the partitioning powers were hoffile to Great Britain, though their proceed ings tended materially to alter the Rate of the Con tinent, and though the a6l itfelf was fo flagrantly un jut& as fully to warrant the interference of England. could file interfere with effeet. Had France and England then joined their power and influence to pre vent that iniquitous partition, no man could condemn that proceeding, or fay it was not good ground of war. They could very well have Paid to the powers of Ruffia, Auflria, and Prullia,"yon are going to com. mit an aft of grofs injußice which will endanger the fair balance of power in Europe, and ellablillt a very dangerous precedent ;" but England and France dill not interpofe on that occafion, not merely becatafe it would not have been juftiSable, but becaufe it would not have been expedient. Similarconfiderationslhoulil now have weight 'with this country. It is abliwel to (late it as a general proprifitice, that we Stead regard the infringements of France upon neighbouring powers in the light in which tome Gentlemen have looked at them. If you do, France, in reply to you, may very well refer you to the cireuxedtanoe I have alluded to refpetting Poland. However Goulette* may agree as to the condo& of France'fince the treaty of Amiens, I maintain that, upon the principles which induced us to agree to that treaty, we may Rill continue to fupport it. We did not approve of that treaty, becaufe the (*titration of the Continent was fatisfaaory, not from any reliance epos the )uftice, and Rill lefs upon the moderation of she 'French Government ; but that under all the ch. cumftances it was clefirable, though it gave to she country but an imperfe& fecurity, which is as much as in the prelent condition of man in fociety, amid the relative Rate of nations, can be rationally looked for. It would be abfurd and causing:at to cal. culate upon more. If all nations were to be.aypoe henfive unlefs they Were perfealy items (allow net to be met with) • if they were to feel almeefetees in danger, unlefs ;bey enjoyed WAWA& thaarity t and were to go to war en &arch of it—Woa of the intervals of peace which occurred, the lad eau = tury would have pretested one continued fame if war. I maintain that the affertion is quitellp s a i t terous,that by the principle of the Treaty of we relinquiflied the right ofinterfering in the affairs of the Continent, whether for Holland, Switzerland. Turkey, Naples, or any other country, or that it by any means precluded us from allies spots thatfylleas which becomes a great noise, so Mai she work awl to fuccour the ditlreffed wherever ore could; but I . . trul that our means of affißance wRI always be con ii,lered in the Slit julienne. Among the JJlealged aggredions of France Come (bets has b e en laid epos the condtua ptwfued with refpe& to the iadensaities in Germany ; but I fee nothing in skit point whirls (hould excite indignation. after the principle Of the indemnities was once eflabliched, and whew the man ner in which that principle has been always saga upon is taken into confideration. The principle of ' compenfation was fettled at the Treaty of Luneville by two perfons, neither of whom would grant any compenfation from its own territory. and therefor* they determined. according to former prailices. to have rccourfe to the German States. Confiderable delay took place in the execution of this arrangementa and, in order to put an end to litigation, France and Ruffia combined their influence. But it is complain. ed that Auttria was a lofer by this arranges ent,sal was it not to be expelled; that, defeated as the was in the laft war, the muff. according to the common courfe of events, be a loin. ? If, however. there was any thing culpable in the conclufion of the indemni ties, Ruffia participated in the blame fully as snub as France, and yet no complaint was made d that Power ; if it was evaded from motives of policy. the fame policy Lhould diffuade Gentlemen from condemning an a& of the French Government, which was guaranteed by the Government. An other point to which Gentlemen have allude& is, the alledged annexation of Piedmont to Imam but this is quite a groundlefs charge. for the fa& in, that Piedmont formed a province of Prance before the conclofion of the Treaty of Amiens; the only difference 6nce is this, that that diftria. from being called the a7th Military Divillon. is now termed the Department of the Po--mere change of words. Whether Piedmont ought to belong to France is a queftion into which I theft not now enter; bet cer tainly it is not at all warrantable is the advocates off the Addrefs to refer to a State exiling previous to the peace. The charge again& the French Gown. merit, with refped to Switzerland. is one in ash Ida I readily concur; that is a very culpable Baines, bat by no means a good ground of war. The Fres& 1 were no doubt bound by a Coleman treaty, and by the principles of juftice. to withdraw their troops from Ithat country, and to refped its independence; hat. during their dominion in their country, they had conftruded a milt:rabic Government, not lefs revolt-. ing to the habits, than odious to the feeliagkof the people ; and the moment the French troopi*ae re moved, the people in an infurredion founded cm der faire R, moil j ii ft, and honourable grounds. overturned this unpopular fy Item. Then the French Government thought proper to interfere, and bad es the Govern m‘it which the people had overthrown cantata, w ..s, the manner of that interference was ibl woe*. I'he termination, however. has been the tailgates's of A I) nem of Government more congenial with dot popular Intiments, andsontaining in it those evident Iym ritnm s of freedom, for it appeared that the repk have eledcd to ch.: higheft offices fame of dare porn of s who WePe molt active in refifting the original inter ference of l ranee, and in procuring the futsverfsonoftbe Government which the French had firll appointed.-- But howe4er violent or unjuft the interference in the i affairs of Switzerland may be regarded. will any man I ffi ea 'Ay that it was An aggreon on Great Britain or . dozs any man ferioutly think that the Firer Conful. It Ifending his troops into that country, meant to impreft Europe with nett idea of bit arerface to Lositad—or