Star. — London, England, 1823-03-06 00:00:00

one point—the cittest:on at to the legality of the in stitution. Whoever looked at what passed in the 50;11 of thyheelKing, would fittd it difficult to Exempt this institit 1-n from the operation of that Act. But, on ,• the occasion of a late trial in Ireland, a witness who belonged to an Orange Club had been stated to be inca.,aole of giving evidence without violating the oath he had taken ; and thus placed between two oat'. -. he world he obliged, in one case or the other, to commit uerjurv. The Learned Chief Justice of the King's Bench, upon this had remarked, that no proof had been given that the witness had taken the oath which had been mentioned, and he trusted it was not so, for if such a practice obtained, and were to be re spected, it would he impossible to administer justice. Should an individual come into Court in the situation which had been imagined his crime would consist in holding himself bound by a secret and an unlawful oath (for unlawful it certainly was), and it would be his deity to keep to the oath which he had taken in Court and trample on the unlawful obligation. Such an opinion having been delivered by a Learned Judge, it had been unpardonable negligence in him to have omitted biinging - it before the House. If, however, such oaths were unlawful, how came it to be dis covered now for the first time? They mu,t have been unlawful from the first, and yet no effort had been made to pot down the Association in which such oaths were administered. The motion which he wished to submit to the House w..ild pro:ose an Add' ess to the Cro vn, calling its attention to a So. • ciety founded on exclusive and unconstitutional prin ciples. He wh,hed to assure the Crown, that that Hio.e ,vinild z-alonsly concur in any treasure that • might he bought forward to enforce the laws of :he • country with te.pect to such Societiceo This was the - 4 proposition he intended to submit. Ilethoeght it would be a et eat benefit to the Uoverionent, ifit wished to tic; rid of the Orange Club. They could not better be deal; with in the first inst mco, than by such a declaration of the resin nof Pal liament. (iou forbid ! that in sormeuing this he should wish to propose an thine tlett •houl•1 be injurious to the Protestants of L el:hol. Wilmot their sur port 'no Gove.un.eot in Leland cold stand. Ile, limerver, th:oight that which he poipo , .ed 11.• on ii be anvti.ing but iojoi ions to them. fie, therteOte, wisleoi the 'louse to expless their dis veprobatioo co' the (fritoge s; - ,tem, and their w ish to les i: ion doom, :earnig the mantle: of car io irz that • v% i.li into ed•ect wh,ii Co: Government. Tile restora tion of tranquillity to Ireland, which this measure eyould teed to :tecomelish, would he advaet.osoos. for I..•ngland, hut st.f. more so to the :aster country. Nothing would beeeti - . Ire'! n. I mote than a measure calculated to attract Leelish capital to it. Tee dis orders which so frequejly oecurred /Jew:teed this, as no capitalists would go to I: elated, and lea' remain there, who could live an - ..whe:e else. The number of absentees now so severe& felt would be diminished by the change which he advocated ; but it was im possible that a large proportion of the landed pro , petty 0: It eland should ni.t always be in the hands of ahsentee , while the country remained in its pre sent state. His pm pose was that of removing the gyeat ..lis acie to the trangoillity of Ireland, by the opinion of that 1-1 ,, u , e being declared. It was in vain to tell hi m that it was not in the power of the Go •ernment to put down the-- , e Societies. When he said to pot down, those wet e hard words ; but he meant, that if the Government were united upon the subject —(Clieers)—and cordially opposed to such So cieties, they would soon make Oodneemen as good, dad obedient subjects •as any in the kingdom.— It the Government decidedly and unanimously dis approved of these As ociations, they would not be suppo:ted as they we: c. lint those who belonged to them believed that they were approved by the Go vernment ; and that to secede from them would cast an Mi l inatiou upon their loyalty. He entreated the House oo consider that the Union with Ireland----no doubt a 'Pleas:lie most important and most valua bk_was a measure as vet, if lie might so express • himself, upon its ilial. It had been the act of the Le gislature adopted twenty years ago, upon speculative and theoretical grourols. But if a party of separatists should grow up, and -uch a party Might appear where it was least expected, the measure must not then be _ _ tti6cl upon speculative and theoretical Kinciples, but upon the arguments and reasons which that House could advance as to its real and solid benefit. How would they then be able to say, that the Union had improved the condition of Ireland, when the great mass of its people were exposed,. year after year, to these processions and taunts, which continually kept up dissentious and di-quiet in the country ? It IA . AS for these reasons that Tie intended to propose the fol lowing Address to the loose—(Dear, hear). " That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, stating that his faithful Commons,elet - ply depl:a:ug the existence of those dissentious by whiAt Ireland had for a long time been agitated and crvuls,d, and a...Lich among oth?r evils has led to the formation of Societies founded rpm eNdusive and unconsti tutional principles, beg leave to assure his Majesty of their mo at cordial zeal and concurrence in all measures for sustaining and supporting the•law;antl of giving the people the bentlit of en joying all its privileges and rrot:ctian and of aiding in ti::con ciliation and su r pr ess i o3 of party feeling, which his ,Majesty's presence and admonition has so effcctual!y he7tir.." Mr. GOULBUILN had never come down to the House under such anxiety as upon the present occa sion; not anxiety arising from any difficulty .ke felt in avowing the views which he entertained upm the subject of the motion, but because when lie reacetea upon the time at which the question was agitated, and upon the irritation and dissention which had re cently distracted Ireland, he feared that in the course of this debate expressions and topics might be intro duced, calculated to inflame thu minds of the People of that country to such an extraordinary degree, as it would be the duty of all prudent men, in ParEa raent or out of it, to use their best endeavours to avoid. Upon this ground he felt infinite regret that the motion had been brought forward at such a mo ment. He had also another reason to regret it, in the manner in which it would affect himself, as a part of the Irish Government. It being so much to be feared that some who might take pact in the de bate would introduce topics of a nature that it was most desirable and just should be avoided, he hoped that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman might hate pelted to the suggestion made to him by Right Hon. Friend; leaving it to the House, when • the SU*et came retularly before it, to decide what had been the conduct of the Irish Government with regard to those (lama( ions. He had. hots ever, the ',LlPPiness ut 1,.t) big tie :ributc to the Hon. and 'Learned Gentleman, of sain that he had completely , est.lliled from those topi c s in his ow" speech; and. he hoped he should not be taking too much upon himself, when he implored other Hon. Members to .follow the example which had thus been set—(Hear, hear)—and to do the Government the justice of not bringing its conduct incidentally forward, when there would be an opportunity afforded hereafter of ex aminino, that conduct fully and completely. Al though he could not concur in the Address proposed, yet he had no difficulty, with regard to much that had fallen from the lion. and Learned Gentleman, in expressing mote or less of his concurrence. He had no difficulty in avowing, as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had avowed, that exclusive Societies, un der whatever circumstances, or in whatever country they might exist, were productive of immediate Merin venience, and were objects of jealousy and suspicion. It was impossible not to perceive, in the ordinary society of life, the hardship and inconvenience of exclusions. It would' invariably be found that the persons ex cluded regarded the exclusionists with feelings of hatred and revenge. If the observation were car: ied into political life, they found the principle in still stronger action. He would further add, that when exclusion was made upon the ground of religious dif ferences, the feelings on both sides were exasperated and aggravated. Therefore, he thought it capable of demonstration, that all exclusive Societies were niirnicel to the peace and union of the great body of a people. He could not forget, however, the Orange Institutions were liable to exceptions; they had been at all times ready to come forward in the service of the country, and that too in the manner which the constituted authorities pointed out and directed. He could not forget that in times whee Ireland had Leen torn by the ravages 'of factioe and rebeliion, the per sons enrolled in these Orange Institutions, and others from whom the present members were descended, had received amt deserved the thanks of the Irish • Parliement, and of the country. lle could no: over look this good conduct, or confound them with the pet sons and p:inciples from whom they were so es sentially distinct. He was quite aware that where a breech of the law was committed, previous con duct would not stand between the offender and the visitation of the law : and if one of these Orange men, by taking a secret oath, or - in any other man lier, transgressed the law, he xas not the individual to stand up and defend him—(flear, hear, hear). — The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had • done the Oranee Societies the justice to admit, that the prin ciples with Which they set out went to support the ; and he was sure that it was impossible to see ,he statement of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, as to their progressive conduct, and their constant anxiety so set their opinions and intentions before the country, without seeing that tkey were entitled to . approbation. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had said, with respect to the attempt to introduce these Societies into England, that England had discou raged them ; and he called upon a Right lion. Friend of his (Mr. Goulburn) to take the same course with regard to the Irish Orange Lodges, as he did towards those of England. He thought that as far as advice went, and it was by such weapons alone that Socie ties founded upon such principles could be opposed, there was no objection to its use. It was by such means only that any good could be effected, and not by pointing them nut as the objects of peculiar ani madversion and invective. So far as they put themselves within the reach of the law, the law should be enforced against them as agao st others; but when they observed it, it was neither prudent nor expedient to pursue them with a power beyond the law. He had said that he could not concur in the Address. He could not do sn, because no one could be so un acquaimed with Parliamentary tactics as not • to see that it imputed neglect on the part of the Govern ment. to on what it was in its power to do for the dis countenancing and suppressing Secret Societies. The House was not in the habit of addressing the Crown for the enforcement of a law, except in cases where the law had been suspended, or' not properly executed. Conscious as he was that the Government always en- I forced the laws duly and impai tially to all persons, whether of one description or another, the Address could not be justified. If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had charged the Government with ex empting an Orangeman from a punishment to which he was by law submitted, and if he could state that a Catholic had suffered penalties from which an Orangeman had been exempt, then he would have made out a case for Parliamentary interference.— But if, in the absence of such complaint, the House subscribed to the proposed Address, it would, in a Parliamentary acceptation, imply blame where no cause for blame existed or was charged. The House would be called upon very shortly to enact a. general measure, and one of such a nature as would not exempt from the operation of the law any Society which com mitted an overt act in violation of it—(lkar, hear). He was of opinion that the Government had not been inactive, and therefore that ie was not necessary to address the Crossn either to enforce the due execution of the law or to take such measures as circumstances tendered necessary. He should therefore conclude by moving the previous question, considering as he did that the motion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman could no: be attended v ith any beneficial effects. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that he should not vote for the Address if he thought it was mean: to censure the Government. It would be most satisfac tory to the Home to learn that it was intended to ex tend the Act of 1799 to Ireland. The curse,of Ireland had been, that for centuries it had been governed by 'division. That system had now been abjured. The people of Ireland should be taught to look up to the law as a source of protection, and not of punishment. He congratulated the House, and the country, that what he had so long been endeavouring to effect had at last been realised. Mr. DAWSON observed, that whatever might be. the merits or demerits of the - Orange Associations, was a matter very little known to the fublic. • The term Orangeman had been applied' to every Pro testant who opposed the Catholic Claims. That was a.great misrepresentation. He called on the House to susi.end its judgment as to the principles ascribed . to Orange Associations. These Societies had been instituted at a most convulsed period of the Irish his tory. The Peep-o'-day Boys and the Defenders kept the country in a state of continual irritation. On !hat . account the Orangemen had formed themselves into, an Association, for the purpose of suppressing rebel lion, and they had been mainly instrumental to it; afterwards, as their numbers increased, they bound themselves by secret oaths, and to that he deciday" ehjected. But Le would ask, was not thara some thing of a party object in the motion ? •Why had the Mover not selected other Associations, as well as the Orange? Was there no differente between a loyal and disloyal Association? With the exception of their secret oaths, he fully approved of the princi ples of the Orange Associations. By their loyalty and courage, they had secured the Throne of the King, an the ConstitUtion of the country. ' Mr. M. FITZGERALD thanked the Hon. Mover as the friend of Ireland ; and he was sole the modera tion of his sentiments would have the effect of allay ing much irritation in that country. Headm'itted the excellency and private worth of many of those who were 0: angemen ; but he denied that those As sociations originated in any fear of the Protestants from the Catholics. He could state, that from 1792 down to the invasion of (rebind by the French, these tVitS not a single Cathli among the United li ish men, except Dr. M.Niv o en c ,n psolessed Cath dic ; but, as he believed, of ri) religion at all. Yet that As,ocia tioa to separate from England, and set up a Republic, on the model of that of France, did not contain a single Catholic out of five lamb ed thousand members, because it was thought that the Catholics would betray their secrets to the Priests, and so pt event their horrible designs to deluge Ireland with blood. The Hon. Member who spoke last had said that the rebellion in Ireland was put down by the Protestants in 1793. But the Yeomanry and Militia, he would venture to say, einsi•ted of three parts Catholics. It WAS his lot to be associated with Catholic regiments doting the who!: rebellion, who had merited and re caved repeated thanks from the King, from their Gavel runes% aid thelr country, for their t e,iform loyaity and good conduct. When such nristafe !rents came from well-educated minds, what could he expected from the ignorant peasantry ? It was the neutrality and impartiality of the Laid Lieutenant of Ireland, that had brought upon him the odium of the Orange S eie acs. Lh England, a Beelsteak Club meant an eating and di inking club ; hut in Ireland it was a political body, disposing of Governments and posts. That body bad recently thought tit to export the Lord Lieutenant in the shape of a toast, by drink-' ing a speedy exportation to all their enemies, mean ing the Lord Lieutenant, his Secretary, and the At torney. General. He wished the Government• had followed the instructions in the King's Letter, or the example of Lord Cornwallis, who had been able to put down the religious disputes in Ireland. He concurred, however, in the policy of withdrawing the nuriers, if a distinct Fledge were given by Government, that there should be a change of policy with respect to Ireland. Mr. PEEL was prepared to given decided oppo. sition to the motion' of the Hon. Mover. But he wished to calm party spirit ; he wanted no triumph for any party, but to pi event either from triumphing over the other. Ia 1814, when he was Secretary for Ireland, the Member for ‘Vatei ford (Sir J. Newport), did move for the return of all Addresses to him from Orange Societies, which he seconded ; but the arnaver was, that none had been presented to bim. He did once receive an Address from on Orange Grand Jury, for defending a body of Os angemen, and his answer was, that he had not been able to approve of any political confederacy whatever. He had been de sired to give his opinion as to the establishment M . Orange Lodges . in England ; and his answer was, that he disapproved of them, as he saw no good that was Mely to result from them—(Hear).-11e had stated this to skew the temper which he had brought to this discussion. It was impossible ill any country that was flee to put down all Political Asso ciations, though, by the authority of known laws, they might punish men for administering unlawful oath•. The Orange Societies of Ireland celebrated by pro cessions the defeat of King James at the battle of the Boyne; and did the Hon. Gentleman intend to make a law to prevent all sorts of processions? In principle he agreed with the Hon. Gentleman ; but he was always afraid to go toofar in meddling with strong party feeling. Despotic Governments might iiiterfere with persons not immediately under their controul; but not so a free Govesnment. The Yeo manry was in some degree under the controul of Government; and therefore he addressed a Circi:lar to the Yeomanry Officers to prevent their men from assembling ctherwise than on parade on the Anni versary of the battle of Aughrim. Was • it not singular that no greater cause for party leads was necessary than the marching with drums and fifes, and playing what were corAidered to be party tunes? Such was the fact ; and how were they to frame a law that would meet such a state of things, with out aggravating the evil it was meant to repress?— If Orano,emen took illegal, or secret oaths, in Gun's name let them be punished according to 1 ion although he would never forget the way in thich they o. posed French principles, and rallied round the standard of British connection—(hoar, hear).—He believed they would still be ready to chew their loyalty, yet li e would wish to assim;late the law of Ireland to Wm of England, as applicable to assemblies in 'which illegal oaths ale assministered. lle hayed, however, that this assimilation of the law would not be the dis solution of Orange Societies. The I lon. and Learned Gentleman had said that his object was to put don the Orange system, and that he wanted the :authority and ascendancy of known laws. He (Mr. Peel) thought this was the only way to combat such So cieties with effect. No doubt it would be proper and wise to prevent the administering of secret oaths, but it was impossible to legislate upon party spirit. To go farther than the preventing of oaths would be to contravene the principles which the Honour able and Learned Gentleman would support—(Hear). But, said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, these Societies led to the indulgence of party spirit, and to irritation. If he (Mr. Peel) admitted this, he would ask how the Hon. and Learned Gentleman_ proposed to deal with the difficulty ? Would he suppress all political societies ?—(Flear, hear, from Mr. Alter crointsy)—The Hon. Member said " heardrear I" hut surely it was impossible that he could intend, in a free country like this, to put down all political society. j His (Mr. Peel's) .mode of dealing with it, would be to employ the inilnence of Government in discouraging the feeling. He would advise the Orangemen to avoid giving offence to their Catholic fellow-coun trymen; and the Catholics not to consider every thing of proper exultation as studied insults to them—(Hcar, hear).—lf the Protestants had reason to exult • in . the battle of the Boyne, j could no; the Catholics exult in the siege of Londonderry ? Could be have ciercised his own. discretion, he shouldj_ . . . . have recommended the postremercent of tins reot.on; until a proposition whch was to be made to assimi;. , late the law of Irelansl to that rf England, es it re l sl ects Secret Associations. If this would sriti , ry the I - lotion:able Mover, he vsoeld have ho ohjecii..n to the motion bein7 tt itbd:aw n ; but he. world net con . - sent to it on any wher wound: Wottld anything he gained towards i . eing party seirit by a motion ge nerally attacking all _• * .ocieties, whether they were legal or not ? It nn as a most unwise n!.4.1 imintoper . oneastire to arldrets the Crown, informing it that he House of Commons %sr-is prepraed to introdu . ee a law respecting S,!eret A , :sociati ails. 11 the Crown pos seeed the initia:ivc power in legislazio a t h at Might be a very proper measure, but not as our Legislature was conlittned. The I ronon: able Gentleman ad vised the House not to agree to a r .h!SOltlilon . charac;• terizing as illegal, or unconstitutional-, Associations which v ere not now so t,nir.iden eJ to be by law.—S He thought he could End some party associations inch had not had the moderation of Orangemen.-- If it was not irrp!•oper fist other bodies to put forth addres.es to the People. Low could it be so for Orange S clerics, if they did so ? He quoted the words of Air. Fox, to sinew that such manifestalions of public spirit sheaved the old leaven of the men is ho put down James 11. and established the British Constitu lion. With the excel tiou of the secret oath, the Orangemen might refer to a society established in Ireland in 1789, editing themselves the Whig Club, the resolutions of which, eecept the secret oath; Ivere not very d:ffereat from those of the Orange So cieties: It was necessary to touch all p , litical asso ciations with great care, for there s, oald be no end to the lengths to which such :t precedent would lead.— Before he sat down he would take that opportunity of stating that he entirely corcurred in the prevent ing of the dressing of King Wil:ians's statue last No :'ember—((heers)—and that the prevention had re ceived the approbation of Isis Majesty's Covernmair. He considered this his concurrence as entirely con sistent with the opinions he had always entertained, and the Course of policy he had always advocated. He repeated that, although a Bill would be brought in on the subject of secret oaths shortly after the re cess, he should give4his motion his decided negative, unless, the Hon. and I earned Member thought proper to withdraw it. He by no means wished the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to withdraw it ; but if it should be pressed, he trusted the House would be found to agree with him in the propriety of rejecting it—(l.ort 11 chetrl Mr. G It A TTA N said, that all the indiv;duals who went to the Theatre to insult and attack the Lord •Lieutenant, were Members of the Orange Lodge, No. 1,611. Ne professed himself to be a Protestant, but Ire was an enemy to Orangemen ; they were all place Me ns and let the Goven 'talent only deprive them of :heir places, and then they v ould soon find the way to stop their mouths—(Hear;. Nlr. Secretary CANNING said that he did not rise for the purpose or enter ling into the debate ; • indeed, he should not have risen at all, had it not been for tire allusion made to him by an Hon. Member. The I lon. Member had seen every principle I.e had advo cated had been agreed to—every measure to which, his motion could lead, he had been assured, was about to be adopted—and every support that he had wished to receive had been given him, not from A single individual, but from the united force and sen timent of the House. The Right lion. Gentleman who had spoken early in the debate had stated his hopes of a very favourable result, if the Lord Lieu tenant and his Government trete not divided upon par.icular questions. Ile (Mr. Conning/ wished he could see; or had ever seen, or eduld ever hope to see a Government unanimous upon every cencstion ; but he was confident floor his past experience that such a hope would be vain —(Hear, hear, hear). — If this discussion ended in the temper iii which it was likely to end, and if the Hon. and Learned Gentle man con ented to withdraw his motion, though he "would not yield to him tine compensation he sought, he wound give to him another; and if they did not [ -is further with that question, they would perhaps get rid of a motion regarding " a military outrage at Dublin on the 26..1n of November last,"—(o of is hich due and solemn notice had been given. He might, perhaps, make an exaggerated estimate of his 01,% n iefinence in believing, that •if the Hon. and Learned Gent:email withdrew the present motion, he could prevail upon the Learned Gentleman (Mr. •Ellis) to withdraw the other—(.C/leers and laughter)_ and thus thii night, which promised to be a night of conflict, would be converted into an evening 01 hat. mony and crmciliatinn—(/fear, hear). Mr. erBERCROM iiY replied—He could assure the Right Henourable Gentieman that it was in the power of his Majesty's :\tiiiisters, at any me Militia! before that nig'n, to h..ve arrested rite progress of the present discussion. Had they or any one of theta been pleesen heforeehat discussion took place to commu nicate to him wheat they had divulged in the course of the debate s they would have relieved themselves from the unpleasant neces sity or heariug the ohe.reationi with which lie had troubled them. tlss object .was to have the laws applicable to adC‘ret societies ...netts enforced, if indeed such laws were in existence; aid this was he: rhin and avowe d o bj ec t. Th e Ri g h t I lonuurable t he Sccre:..ay for the ll.nne Department had, therefore, done tiot g - rear hij.,,tiee iu supposing that he would have condescended to ewer into such a Me:l...ion for the unworthy purposes whidi his itvientony leo: invented. lie wished to extinguish all societies butted by secret oaths; aed he felt the most perfect. aesurauese that when it was known in Ireland that an unanimous existed in that House as to the illegality of such associations, his object was completely accomplished. lie must say, however, that he felt himself perfectly justified in bringing forward a motion which had been discussed pith temper and moderation, and .4 the observations upon which; not one single remark was made tending to prejudice or to anticipate another important question. /laving theretoie obtained the object which he had in view, be certainly wished, with the concurrence of the House, to withdraw his motion. The /tight Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Cannioo thought that the Government were justified in en teitdining ferent sentiments upon so important a question as Catholic Eman cipation. Oar part of the' Ministry thought that concession no the Catholics would subvert the Constitution—another part Of the same Ministry flatly denied that assertion—and how e per., made up of such discordant m a terials coald act in concert tees a mystery to him—(Hear, hear!).—He knew that such au ty:rioa was liable to misconception—he knew it might be attritra7,.: Party feeling—(Oh, no, no! frum Mr. Canning).—But es:.l lee was convinced,that a Ministry so divided could not act whir a unanimous feeling towards a country concerning' the vital line rests of which they were so seriously divided—(Hear!) Mr. CANSTING exphierd. lle had only referred to the • historical recollections" of former Cabinets—(A burgh). The Honourable and LeernedeMbver was t h en permitted to withdraw his victim,. - Mr. Eteis bad given notice that he would on tuns riig!u move for Papers in the posSetsien bf the Irish Government, re lating to a Militarfoutt sir at Dublin on the eeth of November last. The name of the l ion. and [learned Member was ire trustily called on by the &quiets, but Mrs lalis did not declare his intention either of abandoning it adhering to the call ipriu. (urination upon this subject ; the House aditiernedeon•Mr. - I.esso.viroas a motion, at Ilioa•-,rAst litaturti crCletk,, - .. . 4 1 I /, i I. i I I * I . t • It i • i ' i ~ I . .1 a 1 4 i I 1 ' % v 1 . 1 1 k I ' ' i k i . 51 i f ~ , , . , , . 1 4 i , • il o. filk I { 4 ; 1 f 4 i .. , 4, 1,1 . i 1 1 - J' i- t . . ~ .11 ; i . 1 I I I