Star. — London, England, 1808-03-18 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. N., HOUSE OF LORDS, MARCH 17. Lord SUFFOLK wished to be informed, whether the Roble Lords in Administration felt any objection to the production of Mr. Garlicke's correspondence. He understood it had peen • bdore the other Houle. . Lord HAWKESBURY said, that before be could answer the question decisively, it would be necessary to state some Parlia mentary ground for that proceeding. The Papers, he believed, had been submitted to the other House, in consequence of parti cular circumstances which had there occurred. Lord DERBY presented a petition from certain Merchants in Liverpool against the Orders in Owned Bill, which he requested the Clerk to read. Lord Hawkesbury and the Duke of Montrose wished the Noble Lord to state the prayer of the petition, previous to its being read by the Clerk ; but after some observations from Lord Grenville and the Lord Chancellor, the course pursuedby Lord Derby was admitted to be strictly in order. Lord DERBY, upon the Petition b ein g read, dwelt at some length on the motives of the petitioners. They consisted of more than 400 of the most respectable inhabitants of Liverpool, who differing from each other on political subjects, bad united in this application, from their apprehension of the injurious consequences to the trade of the country at large, and to Liverpool is particu lar, as likely to result from the Orders In Council. He concluded by moving, that the Petitioners should be heard by their Counsel on the s.:cond reading, in furtherance of those Orders in Council. The Duke of MONTROSE argued that the motion was inad missible; as, according to the Standing. ors, Counsel could not be heard against a Bill of Supply. Lord ERSKINE demanded that the Standing Order, contain ing such proKbition, should be sp ecified. He concei ved there was no such order. He regretted the decision come to the pre ceding evening, in violation of a plain and positive order. But he wished that the House would not play fast and loose with its own rules. His Lordship strongly insisted that the Petitioners had a right to be heard against the measure of the Orders in Council ; and if there was now any difficulty in point of form, it wholly arose om the House having entertained that subject in connection with a vote of Aid and Supply. The LORI) CHANCELLOR said, that there was no order to prohibit hearing Counsel against a Bill of Supply ; but the ge neral practice of the House had been not to hear them. He de precated the sort of language which was used, with regard to the division of the preceding evening, and warmly contended that it was strictly conformable to the true meaning of the order of 1702. Lord GRENVILLE regarded the vote of last night as the sole tause of the difficulty whith now occurred. Henceforward be could only state what were their Lordships orders--what they are he would never undertake to predicate. Last night the Orders in Council Bill was not a bill of Supply, for the purpose of preventing any extraneous matter from being tacked to it ; now it was a Bill of Supply, for the purpose of preventing the people from being heard against it. Lord HAWKESBURY thought the prayer of the petition con trary to the usual practice of the House. He contended that the Bill had been uniformly represented a s a Bill of Supply, and that there was not a clause in it irrelevant to that object. Lord AUCKLAND said the Bill gave his Majesty an unlimited power of remitting the duties. It was therefore clear that all that there was of Supply in the Bill might be done away ; and there would remain in full force a meet important system of commercial regulations. This was a decisive proof that the Standing Order had been violated. He conjured their Lordships not to shut their doors to the Petitioners ' and adverted, in pathetic terms, to the listresses which were d aily accumulating upon the manufacturers quarters of the country. He deplored the consequences of Orders in Council, as tending to shake that firmness and energy which the people had hitherto displayed under the most ;t ical circumstances. Lords e el:: rave and Westmoreland were against, and Lords olland and Lauderdale for, hearing Counsel. The Motion was then put and negatived without a division— al after a long conversation on a point of order, the petition was jetted. Lord DERBY presented a Petition from the same persons lose names were affixed to the former, complaining of the Or -s in Council, and praying to be heard against them by Coun or to hava their allegations examined into in such other mam as their Lordships should seem meet. His Lordship moved, the Petition should lie on the table, and that the Petitioners should be heard by their Counsel. Lord HAWKESBURY doubted whether the petitioners in is case could be heard by Counsel, there being no proceeding fore the House to which the petition immediately applied. Lord ERSKINE insisted, that the Orders in Council were efore the House, by the reference to them in his Majesty's ipcech. 4 These. opposite opinions gave rise to a long discussion : in the ‘mrse of which Lord HAWKESBURY moved, that the words relative to hearing Counsel should be left out of the motion. This -nendnient, after considerable opposition, was carried without a 'vision. Lord ERSKINE, in order to institute a proceeding upon which le petitioners might be regularly heard, then moved that the Clouse should on Wednesday go into a Committee to consider of the Orders in CounciL—This motion, after %short conversation. vas negatived. Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Bill for funding Exchequer Bilis to a certain amount, was irought up and read a first time. Mr. JAMES BULLER presented Pap m . s which had been or lered on a previous evening, connected with the Droits of the Idmiralty. On the motion of Mr. STURGES BOURNE, the considera tion of the Report of the Pilots' Bill was deferred to Thursday the 24th in , . The order of the day for calling over the House was postpo ned till Tuesday next. ORDERS IN COUNCIL. . _ SirCHARLES PRICE presented a petition in favour of the Or ders in Council of November last, from certain Merchants in the City London trading to the Continent of Europe, which was brought up and read. It was ordered to lie on the table after a desultory conversation between Mesans. Whitbread, Tierney, Ponsonby, H. Combe, Mellish, A. Baring, Lord Temple, and Mr. Perccval. BRIDGEWATER ELECTION. The following are the Names of the Committee appointed to try the merits of the Petition against the Election for the Borough of Bridgewater. • E. W. Bootle, Esq. G. Duckett, Esq. Lord Viscount Hinchinbrools E. Harboard, Esq. The Hon. E. R Stewart W. Wynne, Esq. Lord Lotrraine Sir J. S. Sebright, Bart. 1 J. S. Gooch, Esq. G. B. Greenough, Esq. J. Farquhar, Esq. Sir 3. G. Cotterell, Bart. 'NOMINEE!. . D. Giddy, Esq. and W. Mellish, Esq. COLD-BATH-FIELDS PRISON. Mr. SUMNER, in pursuance of his notice, begged leave to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, whom he now saw in his place, (Mr. Sheridan), and who had brought forward the Petition concerning the Prison at Cold-Bath-Fields, whether it was his intention to propose any further steps on the subject ? Mr. SHE RIDAN answered, that it was his wish to allow his Majesty's Ministers a reasonable time to institute the inquiry, in order to redress the grievan ces complained of. He understoOd such was their intention ; but it it were not carried into effect before next week, he should then feel it his duty to bring for ward a motion. Mi. SUMNER said, the Petition before the House tended to cast a strong odium upon the Magistrates of Middlesex, by accusing them of gross inattention to abuses in a public Prison, which, if existing, it was their duty to redress • but if this charge was net founded, it was incumbent upon the House to vindi 7 ;Cate -those Magistrates. The Petitioners, he said, .Ought, in the 'first place , to have presented hose grie . 7 -.ranee. as Grand Jurors at the Session, or to have ap. \ / AO .to the Grand Jury who succeedecrthem, to do so. - -lad they failed, then they should have made ii‘' representation to the respectable Committee of onatThiagistrates i and if then unsuccessful, vire applied to his Majesty's Secretary final resort should have been to petit But such a proceeding-would not purpose of those Petitioners, and' to appeal first to that House, as citing . something like the clamour former occasion, and obtaining for t larity with the multitude. This. Pet come with more propriety through the medium of a respectable Member for Middlesex, and one of that very Magistracy who were so traduced (Mr. Mellish), but he heard from that Honourable Member, that he had rather chosen to decline it. He was aware that his Majesty's Ministers had taken up the subject, and had made some progress in the nomination of a Com mittee of Investigation, which had been delayed by accidental causes ; but being apprehensive that sueh a Committee would not obtain with the multitude out of doors, the same credit for impartiality and effici ency, as a Committee otherwise appointed, he should move instead, for a Select Committee up stairs. Un derstanding that another Grand Jury who sat in Fe bruary last, and examined the Prison, had found few or none of the grievances complained of, of which they had made a report, and that the Committee of Magi strates had examined the Prison since that, and made their report, he thought it right to move, that these two reports be laid before the House, that they Might' be referred, together with the Petition, to , a Com mittee up stairs ; and he accordingly moved- for the ' appointment of such a Committee, and the produc tion of such reports. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no objection to the produCtion of those docu ments, but could not see the propriety of the other motion, for the appointment of a Committee up stairs. In fact, the Secretary of State for the Home Depart ment had lost no time in proceeding to the appoint ment of a Commission under the Great Seal, similar to that formerly appointed for the like purpose. In this Commission, he had nominated all the survivors of the former one, and the other Members would be found highly respectable. The sole impediment had been occasioned by the County Assizes. He regret ted that his Right Honourable Friend, however, in advertently, had tended to sanct ion those clamours land misrepresentations which he himself reprobated, by the suggestion that such a Commission would nbt obtain credit with the public. The Commission would make their report, and the House would then judge. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT confessed, that he stood in the predicament of differing in sentiment with all those who had spoken upon the subject. In the first place, he protested against the doctrine of leaving the grievances of the people to be redressed by what one Honourable Gentleman had pompouily denominated his Majesty's Government, or, in other words, by the Administration of the day. The Ho nourable Gentleman who had brought forward the present motion, seemed to entertain the most perverse notions of the nature of the petition which it was.Ros sit* to enter into the head of man. A petitiedi`Pre seated to that House praying for a redress of griev ances on the part of the people, he had construed into a charge against the Magistrates of the County, and the only reason he adduced for inquiring into the matter of the petition was the vindication of the cha racters of these Magistrates. He contended, on the contrary, that the petition had,nothing to du with the characters of the Magistrates of she County, and that if any of the Magistrates were implicated, it was the Committee, at the head of which was Mr. Mainwarings and whose duty it was to superintend the due execu-1 :on of the regulations for the management of the pri son. He was convinced that if the House of Com mons did not appoint a Committee of their own'for the purpose of investigating the complaints of the'pe tition, neither the Petitioners nor the Country would be satisfied. The Honourable Gentleman had thought fit to attribute improper motives to the Peti tioners, because they had not addressed themselves to the Secretary of State before applying to that House. But be thought that the business had . been quite lon g enough in the hands of Government. It was first brought forward in 1799, 'since which nothing had been done to redress those grievances complained of, and he did not wonder that those who were subjected to them despaired of obtaining . any relief frdm that quarter. Neither was he astonished at the objections which had been started to the appointment of a Com mittee of the House of Commons by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, aware, as he must be, of what would be the result of a public investigation. Re stricted, as were the powers of the former CoMmis sion, because it had no authority to make retrospec tive inquiry, and, notwithstanding the long warning and time which had been given to the gaoler to pre pare for their inquiry, it appeared from the Report then made, that he had set at nought the regulations of the Magistrates, and the authority of the laws, — And by the late Report of the Members of the Grand Jury, it appeared that the prison weights were shortof the legal standard—that innocent men were confined , in irons—that the Gaoler was in the habit of whippinki and beating the prisoners by his own authorityH that he was in the habit of borrowing money, and -ac.- cepting blibes from the prisoners, or, as the Report • expressed it—that the prisoners had found out the secret of suiting their proposals to the wants of the Governoi. The Honourable Baronet said also, that he should be able to prove something respecting this Governor's daughters, which, till proof is brought in support of the allegation, we shall forbear to state.-- He concluded with expressing a hope, that the House would interfere in a business which was at all times important, but which was particularly so . at tie pry sent time. Sir C. PRICE-endeavoured to shew that se fer from there being any deficiency, there was actually an ' increased weight of bread i and that therefote ti t had been stated in Mr. Sheriff Phillips's letter *mom well founded. Mr. SHERIDAN thought the proceeding of the Honourable Gentleman who brought forward 'the present motion the most extraordinary he had ever Witnessed. 'Thee-Honourable Gentleman, on rising, asked hilts whether he meant to bring- forward any motion upon the subject of the petition which he had presented some time h . go ? He had replied, that it was his intention to make 4 proposition on the subject in• the course of next week, but instead, on that accBimt, of waving his motion on this evening, as' he expec ted, he had now made precisely -that -motion, which he (Mr. Sheridan), intruded then to submit to the House. Mr. Sheridan avowed, that he was by no means fond of an in quiry into public grievances be- Commission acting under the manual. He had no ob those who had acted under t they had not sufficient se, the result of that in attention was not paid to Commission as was usually paid unentary Committee, for cer iiposiaietace even ofthat Report there were suffi cient grounds for the removal of Governor Aris from this office. He was by no means sure, therefore, that the Petitioners would be satisfied with the appoint ment of another Commission under the King's sign manual, from which so little advantage had accrued in a former instance. He should, however, make ,it his business to inquire, whether they would be satis fied with such a proceeding, or not ; and if they wefe not; he should still follow up his original intention of submitting a motion to the House in the course of nett week. He had no objection, in the mean time, that the paper moved for by the Honourable Gentle man should be produced--but he mentioned a cir cumstance to shew how little weight any representa tion from the Magistrates ought to have in circum stances like the present. A poor girl had brought a charge against a lawyer for a rape : this person con trived, by giving money, or by some other means of influence with the Governor, to get his accuser im mured in a cold damp cell, in which she was so scan tily fed on bread and water, that when she came for ward to give her evidence in Court she could neither speak nor stand. And the Magistrates, after inquir ing. into the circumstances, had drawn up a represen tation, to which sixteen signed their names, that the father of the girl was a poor button maker, and that it was impossible that she could have been worse fed in prison, than she would have been at home. Mr. MELLISH etpressed his astonishment that the Report moved for was said to corroborate the al legations of the Petition. It, on the contrary, con tradicted them both as to the getting the woman with child in the prison, and as to the weight of the bread. He preferred a Committee of the House to a Com mission by Government, because, he frankly - owned., that it would be more satisfactory to the public. Af ter a Report from such a Committee, he hoped the Honourable Baronet,and the other Gentlemen on that side, would be satisfied, and that they would heal no more of these complaints. Mr. SUMNER understood the Right Honour able Gentleman (Mr. Sheridan) to have said, that he would be satisfied if Government took up the matter. But he (Mr. Suniner) was not satisfied. He thought there ought to be a Committee of this House to satisfy the public, and have this matter distinctly investigated. Mr. SHERIDAN said, that the Honourable Gen tleman had mistaken what he had said. He had al- . ways been of opinion, that a Committee of the House was the preferable mode of proceeding. He adverted to the situation of the deranged foreigner, who {tad, been committed on mere suspicion, and contended that the subsequent Report did generally corroborate', the allegations. The motionfor the Report was then put and carried. Mr. SUMNER next moved for Copies of any Pre sentments on this subject by Grand Juries. Mr. MELLISH stated, that the allegation as to woman being got with child in the gaol was incorrect, as she was delivered eighteen months after she left it. The foreigner alluded to had been taken up as a spy, and there was considerable doubt whether he had not feigned madness with a view to his liberation. Mr. CHARLES WYNNE could say nothing as to the: treatment of that foreigner, but his commitment was perfectly just and proper ; and it was necess try he should not leave this country, as he had inform a- . tion that would affect the lives of others.' Sir FRANCIS BURDETT—" Sir, I do not mean at present to question the propriety of the confine ment of this foreigner, the only question being, whe ther this statement in the Petition can be proved ? It is quite impossible that I can forget that Mr. Aris himself confessed that he had borrowed money from his prisoners—that he whipped them, and took bribes frog - them. Theseare actions that are directly against the law and the regulations of the Prison. I should hope that there would be no Committee who would decline taking a retrospective view of these things. — I should rather wish the Honourable Gentleman to leave the matter in the hands of those from whom he took it, in order that some justice might be done to those unfortunate beings who suffer under the oppres sion of that gaol. When I hear Gentlemen say that they visited this Prison, I would like to .know how many cells they inspected? There are upwards of 300 cells in this gaol, which would require some per son zealous in the cause of humanity to visit, It would be necessary to visit them in the morning, to see how money is extorted from them, or their bread withheld. Their scanty allowance is a pound loaf a.day, which, if the gaoler chooses, he may with hold from any unfortunate person under confinement, and starve him for twenty-four hours, or longer, as he pleases, so as to affect his health, and bring him to the grave ; and yet this is thought too trivial to be stated. It is, Sir, the sort of imprisonment here adopted that I complain of as being contrary to the Constitution: This .prison was, at the time ,of its erection, a perfect novelty in the country, and in troduced entirely as an experiment, which has cone= pletely failed, and therefore the old law of the Coun try ought again to be tried. The gaoler has too much power to inflict punishments, and complaints are daily made as to these horrible transactions. There is something peculiarly mysterious as to the pro tection afforded to this particular gaoler. He is a Man of notorious bad character. He seems to be in troduced upon the same grounds as a certain Poet in troduced a Lawyer, who had upon occasion been led to the performance of a' good action, and begged it might be concealed, lest h:s good character should rum his business. I am not afraid, however, of this man going even, this length, as I suspect he is incapable of performing one good action.--This man having embezzled the parish money, he was recom mended to the situation of gaoler, in the hopes that the parishioners might be reimb ursed their money. This is the sort of man under whose controul there were generally 200 or 300 prisoners. With this be fore our eyes, is it possible that we can be satisfied ?, It is not, however; upon that account alone that corn , plaints are to be made to this House. It not merely ,ought to e xpel this Governor Aris with all his crimes; but I should wish to put an end to that new and scandalous system of imprisonment, introduced by adopting the system of a man, meaning well, and tending to benefit his species--I mean the lat e Howard.. His system, however well he might b e di s posed, was not that which ought to have been is the view of the Legislature of that day, and ou g h t not to actuate this Mouse at the present p er i o d . His view of the subject was of this kind :--H e served, in those receptacles of misery which h e v i s i ted at home and abroad, that there was a constant b e si, of intoxication, and an improper connection of The f t and female prisoners, by their being kept teixed t e. gether. His object, therefore, was, to separate the prisoners, which he conceived could only be e ff ected by cutting then off from those temptation s and profligate courses, and consequently retomm es e e d solitary confinement. He however also-recomm en d e d every kind of alleviation that could dimini s h t h e rity 'cif that severest of punishments that man en endure. He hoped that by this course the 111061 hag, med . enlprits'might be brought back to habits of n. elitsti7 : but we cannot find - in his book 'all the ether seventies' that can 'be invented, joined with that of 'solitary. confinement. In regard to this gaol, wean that that part which ought to be devoted to the me,- cise of the prisoners, is appropriated by the gaoler far feeding his hogs and his chickens. If any person will be pleased to go and visit this prison, they may h e c onvinced of these and such like abuses. The person of a prisoner, it must be recollected, is under the eye of the law as much as that of any ether man in the ha' dom. , What can we say of the fellow who can b e ll men in chains ! Yet this is the conduct of this G ene . nor Aris, as they choose to call him. When I visited this abode of wretchedness, there happened to b e a turnkey, who had more humanity than this Governe r Arts, his. son; or his soniit-law—for there is a whet ! family, of gaolers, who, as it were, rnonopolize the whole ensortions of this gaol. This turnkey confessed, that the prisoners , were not allowed to see their wives, ' their children, or friends, except:in the preseact of this head gaoler, their tormentor; nor hadtley * opportunity to get pen and ink to write their g r in vances. The whole place, Sir, is a place of decep. tion. It is to the visitor airy and sweet, and a man may think it better to be there than to be in Newries This is apparently the case to a person unacquainted with the wiles and deceptions that are practised,. There is a very fine chapel, and several Very good rooms ; but as ,to the filthy and miserable cells, • man can possibly conceive what they are, unless , use means to succeed in getting into them. I had visited the prison -tem or three times, and there 'were some of them that I never knew of, till by mere chance I got secret intelligence of them. re-visited it, and I remember of a person of f name of Jones, who was confined in a dark cell.-.. It takes more than a whole day to see the prisoners. I asked to lee this Man, and I was at last take: him. He was a miserable object, apparently in tie utmost despair. His head was bound round. He said that Arii had beaten him unmercifully a consi derable time before, and that he had spit blood ever afterwards. Aris did not deny it, but merely said, that he would beat every man in a similar manner, who behaved so insolently - as he had done . I wish the House thereforeto consider whatare the circumstances attending this new system of imprisonment, and it cannot fail to have its due effect upon the minds of the public." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that Government was not connected with the 9' pointment of Governor to that - Honourable Baronet had stated of the present inquiry or complaint. disposition on the part of Government inquiry • and it was not necessary ' into a dourt of Inquiry, upon such , Government might have as well plaints as the present or antecedent fore there could be no particular, againt the present Government, evidently slept upon their posts. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT formerly stated these grievances the antecedent Administration the circumstances extremely stroll) quirt', wishing that Government • to remedy the evil. By this means, hands ; but so far from these grievances 'sed, it had not been put into the missiorers so appointed to inquire they actually stool in the same sir were. Lord FOLKESTONE trusted ,feel the necessity for the appointment and that the Honourable Baronet near . Francis Burdett), who had interested himself so ee . in the affairs of this prison, would be appeinta member of it. na M mes r. N o V f l t l h e o ß se E who ßFO vi ß e C re E a s p a po id for the regulation of this prison , and the removal n ._ abuses that might exist in it, he wa s then:ooNY,, convinced there could be no Commit tee a pp oint that would be more a bly qualified to remedy tbe7ll in v4 t.e .h d en ashC e o lw mm ked i att ,ssicf uid 111 4 E V had b, doors distrei in all the 0 energ lc; Lo Holla Tb and a reject Lo wilco ders sel, ner a that shou L , this befo L befo Spec cow rela any.' divi L the Ho the IN a: brc 1 del Ac do thl ne de Ci br de P , 1 1 9' tr of lt z I • 1 jr of State ; and their ing cogliucted by a Commis petition that House . author* o f the King's sign w a answer the obvious *donate the characters of tho they preferred fa th er the former Commission, but tl a better mode of powers, and what was worse, lir fomented upon a qatry spewed that the same at for themselves pops - the Report of such a Commiss ; Petition would have te the Report of a Parliament _ ..1...r„........ nfthat g r. E of ll‘ t i S c atibed - arid gu ilt ti i t AC Bit k . • , , , fc Ufa' . •, • h> - K 1 • r ite' td s . I $ 2 ) . 1 14.$Q bar or, 114:1 be - s°l • e of eat • 61r. • itcd 41 ' • t be & Otr• mot rbol ! 010 , the sso d. • rives, ' ,a ce of ofd( w, 7 al grit' (e l ect ocep „ and man to tutted Is, no -- • less he I bad bi l igi " ilber there W dl • t rn. hy of the cell-.• isoDetL ilea 10 d. He ill the sa i l I —.; )XMCCLCU LAM ar7 Prison, What the WI was not the subject w ul "A ,.. tt. There was every anent to make every "k w y to erect the House h.occasion. The late redressed these cont. r: I dent one, and there. I°"°. ground of complaint , the last one having added, that he had ye s and complaints to ; and they, thinking ong, instituted an in. t should be permitted !ans, it went out of his AV ievances being be power of the , 1 ire into them, so situation they fouler 1 1 1 1 be fisted the House vr 1 :meat of a Committee, Nei ronet near him (Sir 1 1 8 4 himself se slik complained of Mr. " complained ot. Mr. HOLFORD did not mean to deny that a ca. such as stated by the Honourable Baronet (Sir Froncii Burdett), might exhibit the evils complained. 4 ' ss he had never heard of such, and never did see g prison which exhibited such accommodations, • cleanness, and such neatness. He conversed many of those confined in this .prison, and did meet one who complained of ill treatment. " complaints were against the confinement, not agog the treatment. tirt Mr. WILLIAM SMITH contended that continuation of the gaoler, Aris, after the complaints made against him, was a proOf o f the greatest abuse; unless on the principle of party feeling, it was wo, countable. The Commissioners a ppointed to remeol, the evils complained of, we ha d every reas on to I dissatisfied with, as the same complaints continue be made that were before their appointment. He bi examined the Report of the Grand Ju r y of Middle' sex, and found it completely in unison with the ment of the Honourable Baronet. The mode of .." mittee was incomparably better fitted for an jog" of this kind, than any other, and it therefore met decided approbation. Mr. LEYCESTER did not mean to prolong ~ - debate, but could not help saying, that he never I nessed a man mote harshly and severely treated. the person who was the subject of this disrussio?, Aris. He went through t prison, for the ' y of informat'on, and he never saw one 31101 . V arid correctly conducted.