Star. — London, England, 1831-10-04 00:00:00

": , ; iti • VI # i' 4 r .1 • ~. :~ :~`~, Iv 4 little attention to the past ? Had they Dot had some mai epee on that head? and what was the wasning they had re ceited ? (Hear) He could not help avowing that he thought tke bill was one of great hazard—of great danger. They 1 stood not upon their character in that house alone, but upon ' their character out of doors and le - society ; (Heart—and it was next to impossible that any of them walking the streets should oot, by his own observation, perceive that the violent demonstration in favour of the bill was discountenanced by the wishes and mast of society. It was all very well to talk of the Howse of Peers being a deliberative assen.bly. and of their exerclaing'their rights in an independent and free spirit; but, he believed in his con. science, that sittitig there in deliberation on a bill, which was to effect a change in the Constitution ; and sitting too as peers and hereditary legislators and advisers of the crown, to give weight to the voice of the people on the one hand, and to support the jest prerogatives of the monarch on the other ; it was their duty. if they were not satisfied with the bill, and with the prospect of the results which were to be expected from it, to reject it, and to refuse to unction its being passed into a law. If the people were tired of the House of Lords, in GOD'S n.tme let them say so, and they would be ready to walk out of that HOLM. (LOUd cries of " No, no," from all sides.) He was willing to admit, that there Pro; the greatest excitement existing on the one hand—(l tear. hear)---and on the other there were equally strong feelings to counterbalance that excite ment ; but he conjured their lordships, as they valued the Constitution under which this country had oolong flourished, as they valued their own rights. to show to the people of England that they considered it to be their duty to delibe rate and to act without being influenced by intimidation, or by their own private interests, bat that they would do their duty as they ought to do, an d leave the rest to Providence. Ile, therefore, fearlessly left to 'heir decision his conduct on tl is occasion, and he now moved, as an amendment to the motion of the noble earl, that the words " now reed a second time," he erased from the motion, and the words " be now rejected," inserted in their stead. (Hear.) Earl GREY.—Then the noble barons motion is to the effect that the bill he reket, d altogether ? Lord H A RNCLI FFE intimated such to be the fact. The LORD CHANCELLOR then put the original question from the woolauk. The Earl of bl ULO RAVE said. the Noble Baron who _ _ had just sat down had concluded by a motion the purport of • which indicated a desire on his part, not only to refuse the Bill an opportunity of being discussed in the Committee, but a determination to reject it altogether. The noble baron h..d a-s-rtcd that the arguments of which the noble earl had availed himself in the speech which he made in suepott of his motion, had env considerably increased the difficulties attendant on the Bill ; and, looking at the speech of the Noble Earl, he must say that great difficulties did pre sent themselves towards the passage of the Bill through their Lorfehips' Illowie—but how did V* Noble Earl, fleet them? He had used no threats; he had urged no language of intimidation to induce wnynoble Lord in that House to give up his opinions to suffer the Bill to make is way. No, the Noble Earl hail only pointed to the signs of the times, and had drawn from those signs the same conclusions that would have been deduced by any one who viewed them in the game light. The Noble Earl had showed their Lordships why they ought to consent to pass the measure in•o a law ; and be had also, on the tither hand, given their Lordships strong. cogent, and ample reasons, why they should pause before they hastily rejected it. •In the arguments which were for merly adduced against any plan for Reform which was hrstuaht forward, it was very usual to say, that there were no two reformers agreed upon the extent to which they would have Reform carried ; but the tables were turn ed. for it would be as difficult now to find two reformers who disagreed on this point. (Hear, hear, hear.) The Bill, he must maintain, in spite of all the assertions to the contrary. had met with an extraordinary degree of appro bation from all ;tarts of the country ; for it would carry such e Reform as vomid completely satisfy the minds and the ex. pectatious of every one. The nobk baron bad urged one objection against the bill, which had been made available to saute purpose 011 a former occasion ; and that was the ob. ataeles which it would throw in the way of an unpopular Minister to prevent him from obtaining a seat in the House of Commons. This was a difficulty which he did not be. I . eve would ever occur ' • nor was it likely to • occur, when Ministers were actuated by such motives as those which governed the actions of the present Ministers, who were not snore sincere in their endeavour to pass this bill, than they were in their steady refusal of all patronage ; and what circumstance could prove this fact more strongly than their . having consented to place the election of one branch of the Legislature in the hands of the people. The Noble Lord bad usenet' that, if it were the pleasure of the people that the House of Lords should no lenges exist, he would readily walk out of the House. Now, he did not agree with the Noble Lord—(cheers, and hear);—for, in his opinion, the House of Lords had repaid to the State, on which they rca:, the privileges which they enjoyed, by the support which they had uniformly afford that State ; and it was still their duty, and he was convinced it wu their in. tention to continue to do so, and they could • not do so in a better manner than by resigning at once, and with a good grace, the share which they possessed in the other branch of the Legislature. The Noble Lord had, however, asserted that the House of Lords would no longer have any power to resist the measures of the other House of Parlia ment, after this measure had passed into a law.—On wee . rat most important questions that House had exercised an opinion different from the other house of parliament, with out susraining any injury in the public estimation. He might instance the criminal law—and the same woul I always be the case when that house acted from disinterested motives ; hut in the present case It was known that many members of that beuse had a direct interest; and if none but the dis intcreited were to vote on the question, there would be a large majority in favour of reform. (Hear.) The aristocracy was powerful, as a balance of power between the King and people; but powerless when it opposed itself to both. The Mister, of the world proved that in an advanced state of society en aristocracy could not long retain powers that were disputed. A minority must in time give way, when eke) opposed what was reasohable ; the artatoascy, if they opposed the present bill, would be in a asininity, with two to one against them, the King and the people. (Hear.) — lit what state would the country be? 'Toes true the Con. steution resided a remedy; but let no man conceal from Minster' that if he voted against this bill, he voted against the principle of Reform. (Great cheering from the opposi. shin aide, with espiessions of dissent.) He saw there was dissention in the camp; he was confident, that it' they de eland against this bill they could not embark in a more tameless cause; and the consequences might be felt as lung assay of them had inherited the privileges they would en. danger.— ( Hear.) Earl MANSFIELD felt so much emberrassed oat the present occasion, that be feared he might loss from his re collection what he had intended to say. His noble friend said there was disrousion in the camp. There were (litre. MRCVS of opinion, but no dissension • on the contrary , there was union in ac ti on and hopes ; and in determination to do their duty. (Hear, hear.) He was determined to vote fur the reject ioo of de errant bilL (Hear.) Reform was not necessary; and if it were, their lordships would not women 16 such a reform. (Hear, hear.) The rejection of the bill should be simple, and not accompanied with any declaration that would lead to delusion. An evil should be proved to • exist before it was attempted to-provide a remedy. There 'nigh t be dela:m.lrue bethought tbeyw ere not unattended with advantage. What was the evil ? ft was said a portion of the House demo moos were appoluted by Peers,that they plunged Britain is a long war, which ended by imposing ou France a king she detested, and allied England wish all the despots of leatope, and loaded the country with debt and taxes. There was ao delusion opetated more on the people than shat with a reformed parliament this war would not hate oecuned, mid' the country would be spared the taxa.lon it caused. Great Britain obtained by the war all that she ea petted trues it ; a peace that promised to be permanent ; and wino the Speaker of the House of Commons offered the great coonnander the tribute. St respect which he so much viol gad, was there any disseationt usenet the people ? At the commencement of the Fluid' eevolution France was highly in favour of the people of this country, and it was awing to the energy of the ilovernatent of that day that the constitution was preserved. (Hear.) Was it the character of popular .aisensblies to be peaceable ; (hear) He couldspieal to history to prise the contrary. (Herer.)— With a more popselet Parliameat we should have gone to war; the cons. of out Seen and armies would have been the sea* • bike would the • commanders •be allowed to con tinue in ehsb Oitnivantl t • Would 'the Date of Wslington be allowed to remain behind his lines at Cintra, while popu lar craters weft predicting that a &Mak soldier would not lichee in illeersagait —pleat.) Lad after alma bad beau au. might not the esteemed faith, wick the public creditor be Wake* t Tut ....••• at the advantages .now pro mised *am • lisfaimil bear.) Had eta; tfYti •ffiriske 41.-Cinkiesse ; ' else dart .aisises mailmost • the pima twenty-Eve ailiewitimes. strosied --as b luest of flee. •e1i5ra1.401.4•1•4. ma salsas aces • • - abolished. If this was the diameter of the House of Commons he could not think it needed reformation. In the resumption of cash payment, each of the different interests complained that others obtained an advantage: that be thought was a 'woof that they were equally balanced.— There was one measure in which the House of Commons acted against the opinion of their constituents, and lest theft confidence—(the Catholic question). Some of his political friends had thought him too much Inclined to reform. (A laugh.) He thought there was a middle course; but he thought also that there was no time in which good discretion could be less expected than last year, when the *els In France and Belgium produced so much excitement. (Hear.) A change of Ministers then orb place ; and bills were brought in for reforming the House of Commons ; but much more extensive than was expected. He understood It was the object of Ministers to place themselves on safe ground between two hostile parties, and effect iteMrm without coo. vulsion ; were they certain they could succeed ? It was stated that the people were not represented in the House of Commons as they had anciently been. But it was admitted that a: all times the representation was compost dof knights, chi. zens and burgesses. Would it be denied that members were re. turned by the Crown—by individuals, and by close corpora. tions ? The House of Commons, In the reign of James the First, laid a claim to all the tights of the Commons of Rngland, in which they mentioned the right of the free. holders to return knights of the shire ; but not a word against the right c f the King to give the power of sending 31embers to boroughs. (Hear, hear.) Parliament however I continued its demands till that tragedy took place, which he considered the result of concession. (Hear, hem.) Oli ver Cromwell contemplived such a reform as the modern reformers had produced. (Hear.) But after the festered= of Charles II his attempt to call in the charters was justly reprobated, hut to a Parliament so et instituted we owed the revolution and the succession of the house of flacover.— ( Hear.) Direct influence took place immediately after the re. voluthai ; but our prosperity was advancing, though it might be occasimally retarded. There warnow no direct in. ; and influence by means of place was greatly died. niehed ; and the reformers could not Shell that their system had ever bees in operation. (Hear, bear.) He would now come to the bill which was considered an innovation. The bill corsiated of two parts. First, the disfranchisement of boroughs ; secondly, the creation of new Eremitism. There welt no natural limits to the power of Pediment to disfran chise ; but Parliament would not do obi t wa.s unjust, and he would therefore say, Parliament cou'd net disfran chise boroughs. Either it was a trust, and sb uld not be taken without futfeiture by misconduct; and if it was pro. perry, it should not be taken without compensation. The doctrine that the Church property be'onged to the State, and that Henry the Rlgh:h went beyond I a power, when be parcelled out Church property ansoogst his (avoiding . would find gnat fewer In a r.forund , Parliament.—(Cries of "bat s bear.") . The Metope to give the franchise to new plains was liable tome& objectiocs. The census of 1821 was taken, though mot, iously defec tive ,• and it excluded from representation all towns that might become populous in future. After giving the frau. chise to householders in towns, they gave additional mem bers to counties, as a means of creating a balance of power between population and the landed interest, by an arrange ment which had never been satisfactorily explained. Object. ing to influence they divided counties in a manner which would give a preponderating influence to particular persons. ( Hear.) They, in some places, confined the vote to the in habitants of towns ; in others, they extended it 17 miles. He would ask, could such a settlement be final. As long as there were towns in England not reptesented in proportion to their numbers, so long would they complain of unequal re. presentation. As long as there were poor voters there would be bribery, which could only be prevented by a high qualification, and as long as Goverment had any thing to bestow on those by whom it was supported, they would be charged with acting from interested motives. He therefore objected to the bill from principle, convinced that it would not remedy any existing defects. It was not long since the Reformers were complaining of the apathy of the people, now it was said the people must have reform. He did not deny that there was a great Clamour for reform ; but be thought the opinion of property was agahat the bill. (Hear hear.) But allowing the people to be unanimous. their lordships were to exercise their own judgment, to impress oo the minds of the people that their interests were insepa rable, and that it was the interest of the Peers that the pen. pie should enjoy their liberties in the fullest manner, and that it was impossible the Lords could withhold their consent from a measure that was for the good of the people. —(Hear.) His Noble Friend bad truly said it was not true that the Peen had no Interest in the Bill but that they bad no separate interest.—( Hear, bear.) They were threatened in no measured language by the press, that their persons and property were to be attacked If they re. jetted the Bill. He hoped no such riots would take place, but he looked to the Government for their suppression if they should. (Hear, hear.) Why should not their Lord ships on this as on many utber medals add their opinions to that of the minority of the HOMO of Commons? Fain would he sec the present excitement subside. (Hear, bear.) If he could form a wish that could have effect. it would be that the measure should have been postponed till they could come to its consideration calmly. The wish for change bad extended itself to all the institutions, Church as well as state; the Inbeiltance of propertybythildrie to be the same as in France Zand it proceeded even to ao in terferencewitlithe Inheritance of the crown. Hewouldinmeess upon the minds of their Lordships that they were these that night to decide upon the affairs of Ea , for to their insti tutions did Europe look; and should Refrain be convulsed then would the only barrier that prevented innovation. be removed fur ever. (Hear.) Where it might end no soe could tell; it might lath to calamities that could not be described. If their Lordships were to support his Majesty's Alinisters they might as well range themselves wild their enemies that waged war against their institudens. The I. Noble Earl (Grey) had said be would not abandon the bill until he saw that there was no chance of its being carried. There were two ways in which the bill might be canted, and one of them was by counselling the Crown to undue ha. 1 , fluence, There had been two new Peers introduced to that house, and it had been ocularly asked If they meant to vote I for the bill to save wit h their centerion.--(A laugh.) The Noble Earl said that the measure !evolved painful medita-; tion. The Noble Lord sat down midst immense cheering from the Opposition. Lord KING could not venture tailgate before his eyes the picture of what the state of the country would be when it was known that a proposal had been made to their Load ships to give a positive rejection to the bill—a bill sent up ' to their Lordships by a gteat majority of the House of, Commons (hear). The bill might be rejected, and that rejection wouhl probably be considered " Ira boom vincia recusentum." He trusted, however, that though these lions might gratify their resentment, they would be at Moat chained and its. • dried harmless. He trusted that they would not loog be allowed to exercise their nada. power to the prejstdise of the interests of their country. The Noble Loa (Wharnellire) mid in the course d his speech. that he would advise the Government to leave the measure alone for two years (hew, and a laugh.) The Noble Lied said he wished he amahl suggest some method d pacifying the country and of stop. ping the progress of the present excitement, And bow did the Noble Lord, who was so anxious to pat .an end to the excitemen.. propose to accomplish his object? Why, he would pacify the country by rejecting the Sill,. and laying the people to indulge is all those ferliep of exasperation which the disappointment of their hopes must excite. The Noble Lord and his friends had met the question with a pure and simple rejection. The Bill was, in their opinion, too dangerous ever to be entertained. They 'wild not even allow it tor tog Committee (No, no); bat if they met the question with a decided negative, how were they to go to a Lommittee (hear!) ? No, their Lordships would not even consider the winks of the measure saw to them by the House of Cabman ; and they rejector k in such s spinner as to say that the country • wad', not to hope from them that any Measure of HAAR IMould be entertained (Strong expressions of dbitit from thaa Opposition). Tom was ',sestet of the modem, and of kll the speeches he had heard (No). If it was Dee hs knew not wrist they meant. Tie uow came to anodic:question. What were the evil the country complained of ? war, tiled, and•debt. He did not deny that the people were too fond of WWI but be contended that the people changed tbeir opi nion of its nennelfy matt • seater than the PselhisissiL=., Would tie SW war with America have continued so :May yaws wider ' die authority d sr reformed House of Com ments P. But that was not the only evil.—the proprietors Of ParliaMent Were now obi the peoprietros of the taxa. be called diem prapiators of Parliament in the laws. al Grattan, beams he did Wet wish so use the oilkosite phrase CI borMashloollgen (Hear.) • Ho would tell Um :noble Iced bow this peopristombip woad. Prom a list of as awl peados% above 1,0001. a p i! , I* wigs A s eduse• of Commaisa, sad printed by eta ardor, .it wound that the nietntioes of their lartioltiie blew ileolv4 - absee 300,0001. a yew. out of the Mel aqd embeiwiee, under the name of pensions, places, and salaries. This was the result of the proprietorship system, and the nomination of mini. ben of parliament. The noble lord and his friends laid great stress on the worst part of the system, and seemed to think the worst possessed the greatest merit. He (Lord King) re. membered the time when no one would dare to mention such things, and when the Speaker tithe other house would have called any man to order who ventured to talk of nomination boroughs. Now, however, the system was secogabod and acknowledged, and members seemed to glory in whit Burke called the rotten pan of the constitution. Corruption and all its attendant abuses were stripped naked to she view. There was no longer any disposition to conceal it. They were told that the bill proposed a new eonstitutioo. Whose fault was it that such a bill was now before them ? And he would say man, that if they did not now concede this timely re form, they would perhaps be compelled to grant another reform, which they would consider still more untimely than even a very moderate reform was thought to be some years ago• He would not say what might be the consequence. They were tmidored to grant this reform to preserve the peace of the country, and they should take heed lest they forced the people to that general understanding respecting the non payment of the tales, which they had threatened. The people, it was well known, had for some time thought that the taxes voted by a condemned House of Commons Might, under certain contingencies, be refused. He would not trouble their lordships further than to implore them to consider well she consequences of what they were about to do. The ,Marquis of BUTR commenced by contending that h 6 noble relation ( Lord Whanidiffe). although he had moved a direct negative to the bill, wu not, therefore, to be con sidered wholly opposed to reform. His treble relation was to be judged by his arguments, and not by the motion, for, as far se he understood the opinions of the noble lord, they were favourable to a very considerable degree of concession to popular wishes. No man had ventured to assert in that &smear elsewh.te, that the present system was perfectly cor rect ; but what they objected to was the bill. They said that, if they were to havecelonn, it must be a reform rather two, in conformity with she existing institutions of the ones* He (Bute)wm decidedly of opinion that the people would toe no great degree of benefit from any scheme of reform which could be proposed ; but at the Paine time be was premed, in common with others to make just and proper comm. Moos to the feelings and opinions of those whose Intel& gence and high moral character entitled them to demand at. tendon. What he complained of was, that the Noble Earl ((trey) bad in the Bill united the most opposite principles; and the only his tenon he felt in opposing it arose from the respect which he was accustomed to pay to all the Noble Earl's tyinimr, and to the respect be had for his character. He contended, however, that the new system would give as ▪ sly nomination boroughs as the old, and that the Bill mutely maimed the nomination from one band to another. It was said that these nomination boroughs were dangerous is the liberties of the country. He could not understand st. It might do as an assertion for the hustingews a ta vern dinner, but it was too puerile and inconsistent to be used eftewbere. Did any one mean to say, that there was not greater security of property and liberty of action at the present moment than under these times which were, often referred to u the best and keightest of the Constitution ? The boroughs were created mit the Takes,' and they were selected, not for their riches or the number of their population, but because the Crown wished to nuke use of them to pronsote:its own arbitrary views. The neces sities of the Crown having, at a subsequent period, compel led it to part with its property and the estates en which the , boroughs were situated, they became the property of the Aristocracy; and they, in their turn, bad also been compel. led to part with them; the consequence of which was, that the power of the Aristromacy was now infinitely lees than it was at the accession of the House of Hanover—the periods* often triumphandy referred to as the mom glorious 9( the Constitution. But how did the noble lord propose 'M get rid of the Domination boroughs P Why, by sweepiag away a great part of these boroughs, by destroying the Corporations, and substituting for diem a uniform aye. tem of tan-pound and three-shilling-and-sixpenny vs era. Every one knew the influence exercised is amotry towns by attorneys and a certain class of moneyed men, and the consequence would be to place all the otos. seltuasey und er the dictation of one or two individuals. The Noble Lords wished, be had no doubt, to promote the liberty and happiness, and morality, of the people ; but this Bill was not calculated to promote their views. Nothing was more carefully attended to by our ancestors than to m esses the hereditary principle if our Constitution in all its coyiThat principle was the soul of the Monarchy. But by ng the Corporations—by taking away those prlvihreps which the present race ;of freemen enjoyed, and which sky :tto tr o omnis to their children, this Bill destroyakawy, ec 4 d destroying that, would injure the heading prim& pie. and would certainly Injure the Mosossiy. He on not a friend to abuses, sad if suck as mimed andi be correct. ed, be should not object; but be mid sot eeriest to the great changes proposed by this //1. It would not get rid of nomination and corruption, and for these reasons he mom to vote spina the Bill ; t he repeated dot he should not object to any measure width would get rid of ahem. The Bill, however, went whir—tie changes it im traduced were so numerous and me oieleat.alue pried* ma so new, that he could nut by soy peedhlety go the Mg& of the BM He knew that manyNeik Lira who went farther than be did would not anew to this MIL With reference to that countrywithwhich hraiesosseemed(deotlend),lte would . . offer one °binnacles'. He admitted that the moss of repro **Deaths there establhited was incorrect in principle ; but be denied that it had beeniakuieue in premien He wished to say for himself disclose', and with ropiest• to the meaty which bore his neon. shad what bed appeared be the was not Correct. He admiteed that then wee en exercised thete ; but it was again' but the kiwi* ef pee perty fairly exercised. As he as he was eenel; • property would not be *used, rise the henento = the bill. Individually be nee satisfied that his teemed would be the same as befen. The Niels Led seadwied by reiterating his ditanninsties he teem seem eie hdL Lead WHAKNCLIFFE add, that he neduessaa iii the motion he bed made to reject thew wadi hi esenlioni as an Afton' to the House of Ownmens, whisk he hill intention of offering. When he .need that the bill be re. jetted, he was not aware that much was net the meal amuse, - roe that the House of Clanneas male ennethe it as am affront. With their lasedehlps' pleatimila he would beg *have to withdraw this modes, and subethnel fee it " Tht. the bill be read a second time this day sin meoshe." Lied HOLLAND could assurethe House, shat he was disposed to adopt the usual courtesy of the House. and grant the request et the Noble Lord ; bat when he med. ,dried the motion foe the rejection of the MU was humid I seam to the people of England that It was to be wholly re. Sinot merely put off, be ain't object to the moths be. rithdrawn_ (Imes hear 0. The Noble Earl opemmiee" ( I Mans&eld) hod amigned as his reason for sunsuit* Hhe motion, sod fee rejecting the BiU. that it wouU sshe ow from the people Whops of Itasca (bear, bear!). Hs hyped he should is be considered pertinacious, shushes, it Waimea to the withdrawal ef the motion (cheers). Lord WHARNCLIFFIL: If his rums; wele a s a rad to be would not dividi th e house ea that teedeer eel" other Noble Lett emikl move that the bill be read a semi time that day six aionthe..-. • • I. Lied HOLLAND reread that from the manner i• which the quoin* hi& beat put; and the ensioner la width It bad been supperted,. einapeestien being the ispesseasie•' of the house, he could mot oosseent.ta the Noble Lord's wish drawing it. (lieu.) • Lord PLUNKETT said that the mumeu of the Earl who supported the minim Mewed upon its form, by withdrawing the modes the Noble Lad would himself of that Noble Esil's support. After the ( Mg" had bees put there could be so dtecebelon or withdrawal of It, and he foe sae should use anent es that. TUB Beel• of el ANSFiliii;D Inept bear so onftleb hid oars Whateirer hem tl* noble hed might have put ble matiatt b, his momenta maid have been the area. h He elmehlend that be was sopper the nbetion of the he wished it to be bet @boob brre-unia,_ 'am . man Impulse had the node; boat to reed th e .6111100. dq du months. (Hoz bate. -Calle for Me taut 411100:: ewer a nd anent other Peas, who ion to mailmen the' kleme The LORD CH AMCALLOR all,lb nodes bad been pat into his bends, and he yea bewails ont le. The noble however, wished to withdraw the e s 2 and dart be woe :bound to allow It Do noble lord Bet fibre wrawel.ee en objection, and be had no point tie with. h d • The .k:arl of SHAFTliliWilitT miplabed, •AO the it* ib* the noble lord had to pawn. *nth {be weds WPM* to be left out stand pen of ebe otteith", • Jbel 01t1 Of admitted *art* hustratulllo4l the triable earl wee anon, bat the :pot, that the mud Vitt el ape liseaties.is fie* Illewheairwle other: *Md. tor them, and thus eelliilPlOD 41 # 0 . 411/1/1 / 414 tbe bin be rejected. Osnaidgehe IIW debate bad been nadeeted, - .F4list lbw; •• : • session of the isstiss—sal ssit that the noble earl M bedispensell _asi *at be dis nation in that hem, imanonito bstro people deluded by any h e et ssion..sesoklaWir &see War, be could not non.. sad to rf nestlas.loiNg wilt Amid be put in the hoes kbi liimpospsseil nosed' of the house, sad se Oat mike slks - miss d the Muse melt *to be taken, that k ftbt be sew that disk hraddrs moved to reject a haul up limn the Commona. Considering the dr. aseadanoes under which the motto hod been made, and the =expressed, he must object to the noble lord's being In withdraw his motion. _ The Marl of CA RNARVON said his Noble Friend bad made his Motion inadvertently, and bad disavowed all in tention of affronting the House of Commons; but the Ministers rammed him to his words, and would not con sent to receive his Noble Friend's explanation. He did not envy them their dignified position In availing themselves of such an inadvertence, and force his Noble Friend to ad. here to a form of words be wished to abandon. He must say that be did not think a single vote would be entrapped by such a shallow and if be did not autortabacgreat respect for the Noble Lords opposite, be should say, such a paltry objection (cheers). It was only fair to allow his Noble Friend to correct his verbal error (hear, bear!) Lord HOLLAND rose to Order. Lord KENYON mse to order, In the Gallery; but Lord IYH AR NOLL FFE obtained possession of the House, and avowed that his object was to have the Bill rejected ; and whether be carried that into effect by making a motion for rejecting it, or for reading it a second time that d a y s i x mouths. the effect was the same. It was of no use to try 1 to puzzle the people out of doors with such distinctions. On the other side, there was an attempt to force him into a 'aurae which would be considered as an aff.ont to the ' , House of Cuminoas and the country.— Was It so, or was it not ? The LORD CHANCELLOR spoke to Order. There was no question before the House. In order to give the Noble Lord an opportunity of speaking, be would move that the funher consideration of the question be adjourned. Lord WHA RNC FFR repeated, that the noble lords imputed to him a desire to affront the House of Commons. (No.) He had not the smallest inteedon of doing any such thing, and be gave the noble lords joy of their triumph ob tained by such means. But, between him and them, the country would judge. Lord HOLLAND repeated, that he would not consent to the noble lord's wish, and assigned as a reason, because putting the motion in that faun, would be highly advents. geous to the cause of the bill. The Earl of M ULO RAVE said that many of the argu. menu of the noble Baton turned upon the inadvertence of the ministers in drawing up the bill, and that the same spe cies of inadvertence which he attributed to them in the de tails of the bill be had himself been guilty of. Lord WH Ait NCLIFFIC gave notice, that be would not press the question to a division is the form be bad intro ducal& ; and some other noble lord would move that the bill be read a second time that day six months. Earl GREY did not *know what the noble lord meant when he spoke of the triumph of the ministers, and when he wished them joy of their triumph. The noble earl refetred also again to the expressions used by the Earl of Mansfield, as his reason for not consenting to the motion being with. drawn. The motion ought to be placed upon the records of parliament in the way in which it was introduced. (Hear.) The Dukes( WELLINGTON said, that if the amend ment of his noble friend was really disrespectful to the House of Commons. It certainly was a hule extraordinary that the Ministers of the Crown were the persons who oppoood the withdrawing of this disrespectful amendment. (Cheers.) lie did not call upon noble lords to decide immediately; but es they were going to adjourn, he would request them to take the subject into their consideration during the night. The Duke of RICHMOND said, that the only pa latable thing which that House could do towards the House of Commons wu to let the bill be read a second time ; and, therefore, if the noble lords wanted to pay respect to the House of Commons, they knew how to effita it. (A laugh.) Lord KENYON said, that the noble lord having stated that the weeds of his modes were inadvertent, he thought be ought to be allowed to withdraw it. The Earl of RADNOR said, that as it appeared that the , noble lord bad committed an inadvertence, be thought, on the contrary, that the ministers were fully justified in taking advantage of that babe:team ; as he understood it, how. ever, the noble lord bad waded his woodman in this man ner, to express his entire reprobation of reform. Lord W HARNCLIFFE said that the only object of his amendment was to get rid of the bill : he meant nothing disrespectful by it. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM was about to address their lordships. when The Earl Of RADNOR remarked, that be had been about to make a speech when tee Noble Dub had interrupted ' him (a laugh.) If the Bible Lord had not intended more by his amendment thus on get rid of the bill, he did nut see any objection to hie big Awed to withdraw it ; but, otherwise, any advises. that could be reaped from his inadvertence would helm the good of the country, and his noble friends (the Makes') would do perfectly right to keep it now that they heel Apt it. The Dube . BUCKINGHAM said that he under stood that his ~hug had only moved for the purpose of negativing the MU an& his impression had been, that he would Imre ii by moving that the bill be reed that day six =Wis. lf, however, his noble friend was not Owed to withdraw his amendment. be (the Duke of Buckhgbeni) begged leave to give notice that he should take m appalairy of mein that the bill be read that des!! ds' niselhe (bear, bear.) The lade HADDINOTON said a few words, which were inaudible below the Bar. Lord HOLLAND said, that after the Noble Lord had stated that he could assure the House that be bad not meant anything disrespectful to the House of Commons by the wording of his A1=848;104 he (Lord Holland) would no longer oppose the withdrawal of the Amendment (bear!). Lod WHARNCLIFFE then withdrew his motion, and, as we understood, amid the confusion of their Lordships quitting the House, subetinassiL '"fltat th e Bill be read a snood time that da y Six Months," in its stead. The House then Adjourned at a Quarter pest One, to this day. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Ceased EVANS ressated petitions from Also:heater, Ilheheidge, and Newels, for se enquiry into the ease of Mr. and Mrs. Dead*. Mr. LA MitERT prise . wed twelve petitions teem Ireland for Mabandieg the yeomanry. MI DUMB?. ' On the motion of Lord ALTHORP. the Howse resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and Manx Lord A LTHO RP said, oa this, probably the lest time vs which hr should have midge to make a Inancial statement darks the rooms esesia, be should briefly state hie expectation from the ge , mome of the year. the probable MOM of expiator*, sod the The expmdinee mod at dais late p= s t i t l e the year be made with graft tban idler, as thaw was now but a sigh ithirtor the of adore. Be would Bet nempone the imam of reverse lam year with she fr ialL • lie Se r =irthat the ders Babe allreinkaresegi AS, date mem if se am et *ties. hoe them he lad asinitid, would Mime the asst to 1 to whist might Ite aide. 6 mid& Wino* mimeo of di Nay eastitim, end the eiteellhe is the wise doles Or die inaidasin of tbe year.' The Wide, In 18116 was 18, telditb would be redwood, l the repeal of duties, to 111, The winos of tors in enemas and Niche wined maid, la the two yens' remote, amount to 4,47'),8001. bad the commaption oestimmed trtalleamy but in cosseguance el lammed the Ammar would mot moped 1,1311.4011. After = sa' redtoldeme r trades, the memos fee this pee, arft to the estimate made of the enesing garter instil be 4 7~1111, expeaditure to doe sdi* ef Vapeember was 16.211;513L 'lid foe the mai of the year wail 42 41,71111,080 L hies a balsam of about 8011,08011 eh Vide em a, Hier or - _ with the.. best able tw ilea a• ape* opinion, be was aseared be might imalideady rely. Omm. paetnp this with she siitimint made in last E it 'odd be seem lit din imam of tram was grim be bed ism eilemsii, because be the made wo for inereariii wisemptioa Orem the Mood's of He wiebedwpw amain to two imply@ s atm was the elownb. dim oldie country. It was well haws datthemodiegps 6114 for a bug time has against this amitry, *bleb bad cared i ameidembitytheigitill the Bask.ants limitation ills eats trey. Tbs Beak, however, bad modepeti *dreamt as Has sea deqi w ideowd; mod thettdrypevated soy facittne. imam d iet lavas Ye NM el the envisages ; ton they wield mot tbamerildee 4 shut Nide to Maar, they did,' they Night to teniimilbi sly Emir* Bele diesounts, width sight be assailed with the weak ,:somesistates ; to pewee* -di • they-brew& m rile semi 81se graiwn- market, wiyiefo gromed Noy h. the sehelikteple viihe whited mil mil ammo supoldeg ilis AA% fdHli ' 1 1P4 , w 1 4 . which was that hand of applying the surplus to the i Le , [4 of funded debt, it was applied to the purchase of delicie q ~c bills, in the lands of die bank, which was so far an a 5..,. t ' warmsto them. Mon+, during the present quarter. .; was a considerable falling off in the Customs, from th e „ T "' counts be hod received Rom all the outports within the 4 - t • few days be had meson to believe that it would nut contit::e and that the mining quarter would be more favourabh, II; should not longer detain the Committee than by niolii.. that towards making good the supply granted toward s r 4; Majesty,, thoool. ere be paid out of the con so lid a t e d f un d the w; , of 1,800 Mr. COULBURN thought the surplus of half a iiiilla s , with which the noble hut. was content, was infinitely I t .„ than parliament had declared to be necessary for the pre*;. video of the credit of the country. Might nut the noble k e j conceive that even in the three months of the year t i, le were to come, circumstances might arise to absorb th at small surplus 1 The house had heretofore recognis.d te e principle of reducing the debt by maintaining a surid e , revenue; and though the reduction might not be great, yet it enabled Government to make a permanent reduction a i the interest on a large portion of its amount. By th m means he was enaWd- , the last year be was in office, tore. commend to the House a reduction of taxation, amounting to nearly 4,000,0001. He believed the reductions of d my by the Noble Lord had not produced the relief to the in. dustrious dosses expected by the Noble Lord. The Coal Duty, by some machin e ry too stron g the Noble Lo r d to contend with, had been in • great e continued me the people, though lost to t h e revenue. did not think i; a wise appropriation of the surplus to lay it out in the put. chew of deficiency bills, which gave an advantage to the I Bank, instead of the public. The state of the rev.nue. however, evinced in its rapid progress the e n erg i es of the coon ry.l-(Hear, hear.) ale. hi ABERLY was surprised that the right hon. gcn. tieman should endeavour to continue his fallacious vier of of the sinking fund. The noble lord had laid one snort in sinking fund than the actual surplus ; but that entirely arose from the fallacious mode of estimating that surplus, to wh‘ch be was compelled by the right boo. gentleman's bill. Tile right hon. gent. complained that the sinking fund wag small ; but it was much better for the country to have reduction of taxation than a large sinking fund, and he considered the noble lord's statement highly satisfactory; but certainly the ! noble lord would find it necessary to amend the right hon. gentleman's bill for estimating the surplus applicable to the reduction of debt during the current year. Lord A LTHOKP said he found by expetierice that sp. plying the surplus to the purchase of deficiency bills would 1 correct the defects of the bill passed while the right hon. 1 gentleman was in cake. His opinion was, that keeping up a large surplus while the country was so burthened with tar. Won was injurious to the country. He did did not thick that experience proved that keeping up such a surplus had any bamelicial effect an the funds. Mr. H UM IC wished the noble lord to state th e sums appli . cable to the reduction of debt at the end al each quarter, I which be thought would shew that the right hem. gent's bill did not meek approbatios. He thought the melds lord would Ibletbst atlas on dist bill was a delusion on the public.— . He hail has eafesegioist to otake—that was the amount of estremdkute. He hoped the noble lord would sus be able to stets to *sheen a smut Weide. amuse. He hoped an 1 early oppertialty would he takememtleely temeheve the Bank from its advances ; he thought do amble lord Wasted wisely in applying the supine hi the mutat ald+busy Mk He was confide* the melds bed woad idles Villaterest of the debt most effectually by a eaduedes of andes. The public would be more sathSed with his rednethai el tentien, than with a large surplus. (Hear, hear.) Ille Amid mat beauty to me the surplus reduced to 100,01 AL beam the more the noble lord was pressed, the more he would reduce expiate. (A laugh.) Mr. 01/ULBURN rose to ask a question. He said a paper had been laid before the house, by which it appeared that 700,0001. had been melted down, and it had been paid into the Beak In metal. He wished to know at whose ex. pens* this had been done. The CHANCELLOR of the £XCHEQURR in reply, said that it had been found there was a surplus quantity of silver currency beyond what the country could absorb, and consequently a large quantity lay unprofitably on the hands of the Bank, and which they wished to dispose of. They had applied to him foe permission to melt it ; be had con. sidered that he was not ex the bounds of duty in giving his assent, but it wou ld be - necesesry for him to explain on what terms the tummies was accomplished. The pound of sliver, which is worth Its., was divided into des., consequently, to reduce it from coin to metal there wu a samilice of 4s. per pound ; this loss bad beau defrayed by the Bank, and the expense of melting had been defrayed by the nation. The transaction, however, was rot yet clued. and it might be a question for the House whether they would allow a remuneration to the Bank. The conversation dropped. On the order of the day to being up the report on the Scotch &fortis Bill bring read, several petitions were pre. seated relating to the division of districts, and other matters connected with the measure. SCOTCH 11[1 , 01111 BILL. _ _ Sir WM. R A liiili;;;liigeThitia; ;Will was saw mad improved horn the thee It bad hat boa Midas= lend the House. He thought, bawoat, dist hart pica Into t ointnitme, it still sited saws pada/aka He thought the ban. a his Most the bona weee entitled to a abut. of the audit for is anprigranans in the bill, but still he did ass approved the me m& There had been made saws alsgusat speoshes so the Inky state of the mpreseandsn of - Ssetbad s but they had dm short now they had as sight to have sapper P Z with this, but they ought to have shows the maim of remedy, sad they bad a deb to have expected dat dig remedy proposed should he 111111 the most pad= dist could bs devised lay lama kgmity Sash get be the ease, for he mamas' that t he . system permed wastht with kapsibmiga The Leggett msemdst this to detail kis objections. Hs said then Soldad, ablbsegh, in a commative iii, it paid a greaser pro. :of taxation than Ragland, It was still to be car o its former number at repromadves, or at lent with little asonsisa. Ths head sedan= at grew length went ima the gnallihmises of the voters. in Lis& fag to these he made helmet ass of the words fur (maid rest m and fears, chi= seemed maintaligibie to the gram of them who at newt us. The learned gentleman sashed with eggssmkg a hope that they would hue a hank =kiss of the bill before It ws. mad into a law, mad maimsd the learned Lied Advocate foe the possiskas he had mils Se making up the lists by She. die, whit* he said OWE MA ei mix up those high *Mid ate with panda . tad that deckle°. were am Oa ht thaw ems, hat ware to be referred so Ms mad soilmam of a set of p.lf persona lie wadi maws eirtatt to such a . he had DO ob. *don to a fillarif bolsi the Judge, but lee Lm be s afgdp indeni„ and do not let him be degraded by SUL a pin at appeal. Hs could readily agree to the imam Nee s that the rept:mm=los of Scotland was eltjardomble ; Le he denied the as often made, that =Mad eras alaboly far the coo:radiation he would ap pall le auk who had Maimed to he returned far a Smash' mpg & He complained that there seemed always to be symptoms of useminess • Imsver $ Each load= was mead h. the house. Ass t tut bed ben mid abut the dimothimstios that peevaired in Scatted; bat be could mane Iha ham that if Caveman was Use It the Lards so dbmalsoss aged be appraimedsd. (11=4 He amid ammo than, that =Lag the Amnions there had been Mr."ands fin mem sad it was the privalest be ; each_ preparations were desired. (Hat) MC: C. FERG LISSOM repelled the insinuatiat that the °overman bad held out timmingstat to promote db• forams in Scotland. He thou proceeded at gres kith to answer the arguassna at the Lamed Hama. He mid the Lamed Lord Admits had had made to awaits in farming the BM so as is reconcile the lamas of ell parties. Her Ole. C. F ) maid have so objecclo to support say tssse moodmsat that would ea. mad We county repressiadma lis had at first objected to the dilpookkaa of the la. auslllimdana but es fart Inquiry he was now convimed that it was judicious, la cause by it the real voice of the Laid lama would le batter board, a= at, as it hat Wm lasso, he conlisd the aristocratic ladame. kind has aid is hat littelegtbeg wiih all the faults in the ropoissogadsa, the IMMO leolgts had alers Ms desk du yt bathe was may mg, ties Wolin Welt he had always dint the limb emlogY 61 .* bars era* asartY all amyl: by the site of osisintelle of $$S mom kr Morn and _-suns, May ball ateltl always mod with majorit= itswi sggoani the imam lk iltmaseated a groat may gam is me ors awe was My ems Mich Kaaba had M des Inintrlch is the MN d the Test mid Clarissa= deg la the eta' debut sa that gla so ndes the Miss el 31 ` =Roam, obey AIWA •111-in favour of the an,sed 00 1 1 1 Is Irk* IL Us did ast thsa Wok Mt it mid 61 1 / Vspeated *et *Mb malty Manias had &it Oar "Vs •• Va tdii um baling Mat thmthole Moog o f tb° • • ••. • •