Star. — London, England, 1831-03-03 00:00:00

IMPER lAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, MARCH 2. Sir JAM rs GRAHAM and others from the Commons brought up the Appropriation Rill, the Consolidated Fund Bill, and several petitions. Papers were presented by Mr. Jonsisoir, from the Chief Secretary of stateA . Office, in Ireland. and by Mr. BROWN, from the Office of the Deputy Clerk of the Crown in Ireland. The Doke of BEAUFORT presented a petition from Gloucester against slavery t also a petition from the manufacturers of Gloucester Against the truck system. The Duke of GRAFTON a petition from Suffolk, against negro slavery. The Duke of NORFOLK a petition from the Roman Catholics of Galway, praying for extension of the elective franchise of that town. Lord King ;presented petitions from Norwich for Parliamentary Fiction!. LUNACY COMMISSIONS BILL. v. house. on tile motion of the LORD CHANCELLOR, went i..to Committee. pro forma. on the Lunacy Bill. The noble and kat— ed lord explained several alterations ; and after a few observations trout LORD ELLENBOROUH. the bill was reported, with amend ments. to the house, and ordered to be printed. The Canada Lands bill was read a third time. MOS 31. The Rai of RADNOR having several petitions to present praying ter PArhamentary Reform, observed, that it was impossible not to say a few words on what had occurred in another place. Their lordships well knew his opinions upon the question of Reform. and he took that upurtunity of expressing the satisfaction he felt on finding a measure hail been int►oduced. which he believed would give satisfaction to the whnle empire.—(Hear, hear.) The noble earl was convinced that the country would receive it with proud exultation. They would Rnd in the present government an upright intention to fulfil the pledge they had Riven. and parliament would again possess the confidence of the people. The noble earl in conclusion presented a petition from Kent, and one front Laneaster,.for Reform In Parliament—the petitions prayed for Annual parliaments and wt.; by ballot. The House then adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The anxiety to obtain good 'ems almost equalled that of yesterday— both the house and the gallery were crowded to exce-a long before the Speaker took the Chai•. Places were taken in the usual way by affixing the name, so that many members were deprived of thei• usual seats.- llr. Hunt and Ilf•. O'Corieli were driven out of the" places, and they took the" seats on the opposition bench, and it created no in. considerable amusement to observe those hon. members sticking fast to their seats, and engaging themselves in most merry tr i k with the Ex. Attorney-General, Sir C. WetherelL BREACH or ralvtuctat. \lr. O'CONNELL, in compliance with his notice, moved that Alex. Jacobs he discharged out of custody. He had made enquiries into the e.tsc, and found that the individual was of the Jewish persuasion, and that he was not at times accountable for his own actions. The hon. member said he felt persuaded that the individual could not have acted t=om private or personal motives. He feared if the individual was re ptimanded at the bar—it might occasion an unseating recurrence of the unfortunate malady. He, therefore, moved that:Alex. Jacobs be forthwith discharged. Alderman Wt )OD seconded the motion. Tne SPEAKER said there was a precedent in the year 1784, when at person who had been committed to Newgate for a breach of privilege petitioned the house, and set forth that he was unwell. The house on taVng this petition into consideration, ordered the petitioner to be discharged from Newgate forthwith, without being reprimanded at the her. Ur. O'CONNELL then moved that Mr. Speaker:No issue: his warrant for the discharge of Alexander Jacobs from Newgate forthwith. Mr. F. LEWIS thought before the motion was agreed to. the house ouAlit to have the opinion of some medical gentlemen on the state cf the petitioner's mind, in confirmation of what had been described by the hon. member for Waterford. They ought to have medical cad& C3ICS to establish the malady now asserted to exist. Mr. BEAUMONT considered that the dignity and privileges of the house were as likely to be preserved by a merciful, es by a se vere course. The motion was then put, and agreed to. Lord CLIVE presented the report of the Linlithgow Election Com. mittee, stating that the sitting member had been duly returned. Mr. O'CONNELL presented petitions from the working hosiers of Dublin, and from places In Meath, &c. for the repeal of the Union. PENSIONS.-IRELAND. Mr. O'CONNELL then presented petitions from the working hosiers of Dublin, and from places in Meath, &c. for the repeal of the Union. He also presented a petition from Navan, Meath, for the abolition of unmerited pensions. The Hon. Member said there were considerable omissions in the Irish pension list; he particularly in. stanced the case of a Mr. M‘Nally, a barrister, who had for 19 years privately received a pension of 3001. a year. He could not but think such a system was most mischievous. RIFORIC-11111LAVD. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition front Cork, for Parts. mentat y Reform. He took this opportunity to express his approba. t'on of the manly and efficient system of Reform proposed by his Ma jesty's Ministers (cheers), and said, that it ought to be supported.— (Cheers). He, however, considered, that in this, as in other in stances, Ireland was by no means favoured. He considered with tie petitioners that the vote by ballot and triennial parliaments were essential, but after the efficient plan proposed, lie should throw no ohstacle in the way of the great measure proposed. (Hear.) Sir J. NEWPORT expressed his decided approbation of the plan proposed by ministers. As to its promoting revolution, it was the way to prevent revolution. (Loud cheers.)—Ordered to be printed. Mr. C. DUNDAS presented a petition from Fartingdon, Berk. shire, for the repeal of the malt duty. Mr. COLE supported the prayer of the printed. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON presented a petition, praying that the distress of the colonies might Le relieved. Mr. HUGHES HUG HES presented a petition from Hatherley, Devonshire, praying for a law to enable persons to build churches, and have the perpetual endowment thereof.—Ordered to lie on the table. Lord BRABAZON presented a petition from the fish curers, &c. in the neighbourhood of Dublin. praying for the continuation of the iris, fish bounties. Mr. O'CONNELL supported the prayer, as the bounties had caused the building of peculiar vessels.—Ordered to lie on the table. to 'oe WIZ ST BALLOT. Mr. HUNT presented a petition from a place In Dorsetsbire, which prayed that all placeman, and those holding profitable offices under the e:own, might be deprived of their seats in Parliament—that Parliament might be of shorter duration, not longer than triennial, and that the mode of election might be so free as to prevent all attempts at bribery. In the prayer of this petition he agreed, and the day was not far distant when no placeman would have a seat in that house. (A laugh.) Hon. members might laugh, but they would have been quite as much sur lrised, if they had been told ten years ago that Government would have in-night in such a bold and efficient measure as the one introduced last night. He thought the measure might have gone farther; but it went far enough to ensure his hearty support. (Hear.) He hoped to live to arc the whole qhestion carried. The measure now proposed was only the beginning, lie repeated; it should nevertheless have his humble support. He presented that and other petitions for reform, from Devonshire, Kidderminster, &c.—Ordered to be printed. REPLESENTATION-lIIELAND. Mr. JEPHSON gave notice, that after Easter be should move for eve to bring in a Bill, to provide that all blembera on taking their resits, should make oath that they had not been guilty, directly or indi rectly, of hribery and corruption, to obtain their seers. Also that all counties in Ireland, having upwards of 300,000 inhabitants, should Lave the nuu:`•er of representatives doubled. Lord %V. POULETT presented a petition from Sunderland for Parlarnentary Reform. He said he could not concur in the extensive plan of ilerOrm that had been proposed by his Noble Friend ; but, at •he same time, though he heartily approved of the extension of the franchise, he could not support such entire extinction of the close i•oroughs. cur M. W. RIDLEY trusted that the great motion would not be defeated by any debates on the minor points of the measure.—Petition ordered io lie on the table. blr. S.tNDFORD presented similar petitions from Glastonbury, Frome, Chad. A..e. Mr. T. ESTCOURT presented petitions from Marlborough for the repeal of the assessed taxes and the abolition of slavery. 11r. HODGES presented petitions from Maidstone and other places in Kent, fur parliamentary returim—Ordered to be printed COAL TRADE, LONDON. Mr. F. LEWI S gay.: n. , tiee, that on the 20th (we believe) he would move for leave to brtr in a bill for the better regulation of the coal trade in London. Lord OSSORY presented pe:itionc from places in Kilkenny for the abolition of tithes, repeal of the Union, ac.—Ordered to lie on the 81r W. FOLKES presented several petitions from Norfolk, &c. for Parliamentary Reform, expressing his satisfaction at the measure that had been proposed. Mr. BETHEL moved for various returns respecting olive oil and palm oil.—Accounts ordered. Mr. BANKES presented a petition from the Trustees of the British Museum for the coatinuation of the annual grant.—. Ordered to lie on the table. REFORM OF PAILLIAMiIIi Lord J. RUSSELL (at five o'clock) moved the order of the day for the House to proceed with the adjourned debate. Mr. CAMPBELL, previously to the order being read, asked a question of Lord J. Russell, which was inaudible in the gallery ; bat in reply Lord J. RUSSELL said, the first bill that 1 Intend to bring in is to impseve the repress:Redo° in England and Wales. If the house consent to that, I Aall then bring in a second bill relating to Scotland; and afterwards a third bill, to amend the representation in Leland.— (Cheers.) The order of the day having been read, Mr. HUME rose. He said—Sir, when I rose last night at the ad journing of the debate, I was unwilling to intrude myself at that late hour for the purpose of prolonging it, but I am now called shortly to state to the house my opinions on the very important question that is submitted to the consideration of the house. 1 am anxious to do so, because, in the course of the debate which has already taken place, I and others entertaining opinions respecting reform which we are known to entertain, have been alluded to decidedly by those who have spoken; and as far as I could understand, objections have been taken by the noble lord (Lord Leveson Gower), under the idea that it was to be a plan calculated only to give partial relief—a plan that would only half settle the question. Now, sir, I am bound to say, radical reformer es I am, that the plan proposed much exceeds what I expected-4We) I beg honourable members will hear the sentence out betas they cheer—(Continued cheers.) I say sincerely, that with all the dispo sition I had to put confidence in his Majesty's ministers, I redly , candidly declare that I was not prepared to find them come fawned on this occasion with so manly a measure. (Immense clutering.) I am bound to gay that no question since I have been in Parlleast has been of more importance than that which was submitted bet night, nor one in which every interest of the country is so 'deeply involved ; therefore I consider the question submitted by the noble lord as re. deeming efficiently the pledge of his Majesty's government to bring forward a measure of reform. I have great pleasure in saying this too, because I have already in my place in this house regretted that other pledges of Ministers were not fulfilled ; but on that particular owe. sion I stated that those pledges, compared with the measure of re• form, were literally nothing—and that with reform to which the whole country were now looking, and of which 1 have thought there nem could be a doubt, the other measures would follow and be effected. I am anxious to state, that 1 concur entirely in the plan submitted by the noble lord ; not that it is a plan which. if I had the power of se. letting and arranging, I pershaps would have submitted myself, because in idquestion of so much importance, though the principle may he the same, the opinions of different individuals must vary in the de. tails—but I must submit that in whatever way you view the question, it is one of immense difficulty—difficult, because in the established institutions of this country, any change from the worse to the better, must always be attended with great diffi culty as far as individual interest and contending parties are concerned. It is with that view his Majesty's Ministers have Atone wisely. (Hear, hear.) I candidly confess, when the noble lord stated yesterday that it was not the intention of his Majesty's Ministers to in troduce any clause respecting altering the ..oration of Parliament or vote by ballot, it struck me the measure was defective in that respect. But when T came to consider the measure and important change, f Kay, when I came to consider the immense, the important, and the efficient change that is proposed. (Hear, and low' cheering)- -when I fine. how ac ceptable it will be to the public.—(loud cheers)—l think that his Ma. jetty's Ministers have done wisely nut to encumber their present mea sure with those other two questions, which are separate and distinct, and which may be brought forward at any period when they may think proper hereafter. (Loud cheers.) 1, therefore, fully concur in the plan, and in the mode in which it has been brought forward, thinking that the subjects of the duration of Parliament and vote by ballot will come on as entire subjects. The Honourable Hart. the Member for Oxford, in a consiletaLle portion of his speech argued that there would he no necessity for reducing the duratiot. of parliaMent under the existing average of parliamentary duration : he that as it may, different opinions are certainly entertained on the sub. ject, but I think, on the whole, that the government have done very right in postponing to a future period the discussion upon that subject, and also the consideration of the vote by ballot. I have no hesitation in saying my opinions on these subjects are by no means altered, hut what do I want? I want instead of carrying such a measure of this essential importance, finding a large portion of this house--(hear, hear) .—certainly a much larger portion within than without, unable to make up their minds as to the propriety and efficiency of the important ques tion—l would rather carry their opinions by conviction--(hear).—and by the necessity—the demonstrable necessity of protecting voters in the exercise or their franchise, titan by force, If I may say so. 1 therefore think the question of vote by ballot has l.een most pro perly left nut of consideration on the present occasion ' and that it will come forward much b etter a f ter we h ave h a d a trial of the present proposed Reform.—(Cheers.) On that account it is that I am anxious to give every support, feeble as that support may be, which :it is in my power to give, both in and out of this House,' - towards carrying this great question forward. 1 say that che rishing all those opinions, which many Members in this House know I have entertained. I say the plan, though perhaps not to the extent that many might have expected it would be, it is both wise and proper in his Majesty's Government to have brought it forward as they have done. There are a few of the details that may be objected to, but there is so much good, so much a dvant age —(h eu , an d cheers)—so much advantage, 1 say, to the Crown and to the Aristocracy to be derived by this hill— that I shall not he one to stand, in consequence of any one of the details, forward to throw the least objection iu the way of any part of the measure passing. Undoubtedly, in the course of the pro. ceedings through which the measure has to pass, should suggestions be offered to his Majesty's Government of more moderate alterations in the details which they . may he satisfied may render the plan more effi cient, I think his Majesty's Ministers will act properly in adopting those suggestions with the view of perfecting their own plan of Re form. %nth these statements, candidly I can assure the right bon. gentleman that 1 have the satisfaction of stating that all those with whom I have bad an opportunity of conversing this day are satisfied with the measure,—( Hear, hear, hear)—and 1 find, that it has given the most general satisfaction.—(Hear, hear, and immense cheering)-- Even many whom 1 know to be the strongest Reformers in England— many of those I know are perfectly satisfied—(repeated cheers).ssand say that they have the, utmost reason to be delighted. (Cheers.) — It is the perfection and wisdom of every Government to meet the rising wishes of the country, and to effect by degrees those changes which cir. cumstances require gradually and properly, under the legal amhorities, calculated to effect them, and not to risk those useful changes by suit stunning any thing such as has been brought forward at former times, and in other places, having all the pretensions o f e nti re anti infallible wisdom. It i s on hat promise that I give it my entire support. And 1 have no doubt, tho ug h many may think the qualifications for voting are too high, yet there is too much good sense in the British community not to feel that vast good is to be obtained by this measure, and that though some may not immediately participate in its benefits, yet that great advantage will result to the whole community. (Loud cheers.) By such a measure the lowest as well us the highest must be benefitted. —lndeed 1 should be glad to know what plan could he suggested that would be better calculated to meet the public benefit than the one brought forward by the noble lord. His Majesty's Government have adopted population and property • taxation might certainly have been made a third, and civil ser vice a fourth claim. (Hear, hear.) Those are the only claims any individual can have, as it appears to ow for possessing the elective franchise. All those four it is difficult to combine; two of them have been selected, and the two that in toy opi nion are the best calculated for the purpose. The two speeches that were delivered last night on this side of the house, appeared to the to be speeches against any kind of Reform whatever, nut against this apes cific plan, but against any Reform whatever—(loud cheers)---and I put to the house, and 1 pm It to the country to say whether we arc not now in a situ.tion loudly to call for Reform. (Ilear.)—The honour. able member then alluded to the vast numbers of petitions that had been crowded upon the tattle of the house as a proof of the necessity , of Reform. He adverted likewise to the improvement which had been stated to have taken place In Scotland of late, and he was certain, that by the passing of the present measure, that improve ment would yet go to a great extent. With respect to the reduc tion in the numbers now returned to this house, 1 must say that it not only has my most perfect concurrence, bnt that 1 trust, when any future reform shall take place, the proposed numbers will be reduced, if it should be found, upon inquiry, that such a reduction would, as I think it would, be for the public ativan tage. Indeed, if it were proposed to reduce the number to five hun dred instead of six hundred, I should not say that such a reduction would be a detriment to the public interests ; and the unfounded argu ments which I heard last night against that part of the proposed mea sure, confirmed me in the opinion which 1 have long entertained, that the number of members in this house is inconveniently large. (Hear, hear ' and No, no.) I ask any hon. m em b er w h et h er h e can say that this house, as at present constituted, represents the people of Eugland, or that it imssesses, as it ought to do, the confidence of the people ? (Chess.) If any honourable member were to assert that it did, I would refer hint to the petitions on tile table of this house as a triumphant refutation of the assertion—( Hear, hear,)--to those pe. ations, which clearly chew the wisdom of Government In coming for. ward with a measure which will prevent the evils whi c h, w i thout in form, must inevitably take place. (Cheers.) Allusion has been made to the change which has taken place in a neighbouring country. Now, let me ask those Hon. Members who deplore those changes and the evils which have arisen from them, whether they do not think that those evils —if evils they be—l do not say they are—would not, if not avoided, have at least been diminished, Warty timely regard foe public opinion had been manifested in this country. I apprehend nothing from physical force I but 1 say there is a moral force which influences an d per. vain the whole community, and the consequences of which would not be retarded, but accelerated, by a disregard for public opinion. I say the change of calling into the Council. of the nation the property and number of the kingdom ; and I think his Majesty's Government have taken the wise course, and although 1 may not perhaps be satis fi ed with the extent to wh ich they have gone, yet lam willing for the pre sent to give up my opinion upon subjects of a trifling moment as com pared with the principle of reform itself, and for one shrill do nothing to throw impediments in the way of blinisters.—(Cheers.) Let any man who opposes this change, consider well what may be the consequen. co, if thisliouse should by its vote say, that it will tot give the people of England that which is their birthright, and which has been too long withheld, but which this measure proposes to grant. I shall not trouble the house further than by repeating, before 1 sit down, my most cordial assent to, and my anxiety to support the measure proposed by the Noble Lord.—(Repesteti cheers.) Mr. SHELLEY opposed the Bill, and considered that it would de stroy the Constitution. lie was of opinion that the representatives of ! the close boroughs were the only independent members in that House. (Loud laughter, and some cheering.) He would not sanction the uis. ftandisement f one borough—feeling persuaded that the Government of the country could not be earthed on without the boroughs. tie was of opinion that the Ministers did not tesire the measure to pass. They found themselves too burdened with the responsibility of office.— He should oppose this unwise, extravagant, and revolutionary urea sure.—(Cheers and laughter.) Mr. BARING WALL said, he felt highly gratified at the speech that had just been made by the hon. member who had just sat down.— He was aware that the town of which he had the honour to be one of the representatives would, by the measure proposal to be carried into effect by the noble lord (Russel), he reduced to only one member, and as he must, therefore, in that light he considered as only half a man, his opinion:might be considered as of little weight at the other side of the house. He looked with some distrust upon any measure of Parlia. mentary Reform brought forward by the Ministers of the Crown—and, having that distrust, he would beg leave to call the attendon of the House and of the country to the situation in which the Government stood. He would fearlessly say the unanimity of all the metnitera of his Majesty's Government, of which so much had been said, had occur red only at the eleventh hour. (blear.) An unanimous Cabinet 1 If , they had told him they came to tile consideration of the question with fear and tretnbling—(immense cheering)—he would then have felt very different towards diem, and instead of being found among their oppo nents lie would have felt honour by being one of their firmest friends. The House must allow him, too, to remind them how that unanimity was gained. It was gained by concession and compromise—(tremen. dusts cheering) yet, under such circumstances, the measure was I brought forward as the voice of a unanimous Cabinet. There never was a question brought forward under the advantages of the present — (hear, hear)—advantages almost unconstitutional—advantages which he would only allude to, because they would be undentood.—(Hear, hear.) A Right Honourable Baronet opposite has told the opposi tionists of this measure, that if they did not beware they would bring the country to the brink of ruin. --(Hear, hear, and tremendous cheer. ing.) He must be allowed to say, if the Cabinet were unanimous on this question, the petitioners were not, and he would take upon himself to say, though the return moved for by the Honourable Member for Preston (Mr. Hunt) bud not yet been made, that there was great dis tinction between those petitioners who prayed for Reform, such as the Government was at present inclined to grant, and those who prayed for it accompanied by the ballot. He must be allowed to ask, if this was to be considered the age of misrule? He would ask the House whether these were times when any Member would doubt there was a great spirit of :Reform going abroad. He would ask the House, if this was not a period when the Parliament was strong and the Govern ment weak. Ile did not mean exactly the Government on the other side of the House, but any placed under similar circumstances. lie would ask the House if the present Government could come down to the house and command a majority ? He would admit that them was such difficulty in detecting abuse as to the microscopic eye of the hut. mem. bet for Middlesex, and he wished the house to rententher the declara tion of the hon. member for Tamwordt. (Sir R. Peel,) that no Govern. ment could go on unless it carried with it popular opinion. Public opi nion influenced the house—and even the noble member for North harnpton had thanked God, that the time for governing by patronage had passed. He trusted that they would not only consider what Would satisfy them, but what the country wanted. He, however, professed himself to be a moderate reformer; but this measure must be kicked out. If that could be done he should then be disposed to—(a laugh) —consider whether something could 'not be done. But as our repre sentation was not one of system, he did not want any system in his re form. In toe present plan there was no equitable adjustment," nor would it work as some believed. For instance, the corporation for Portsmouth was at present Whig: pass this bill, and two junior Lords of the Admiralty would always represent that place. As to the exten. sion of special franchise to Mary-le-bone, what would be the conse quence ? Paddington, crowded as it was, would soon become clamour ous to have the privilege of sending members, and Hampstead would be factious till it was represented in Parliament. (Cheers.) The noble lord considered that his measure would finally settle the question ; was this finally settling it ? (Cheers.) Ile,conattlered that this plan would do any thing but finally settle the question. (Hear.) After such a sweeping plan had been proposed, he should like to know how the Members of any Administration were to get seats in that House ? That was a requisite question to be answered. It was not contemplated by this Bill--which he opposed ; he was a reformer ; hut he had now only to do with the measure of the Government. He wished to see he connection maintained between the democracy and aristocracy ; aid that the King, Lords and Commons, should be all maintained ; but he did not consider that this Bill was c alculated to maintain these interests in the light contemplated by the constitution. With respect to the House of Lords, he considered that by the creation of so many Peers, there had been a large 7infusion of the popular feeling into the other House ; and that as to the clerical influence there, he considered that a Bishop had not above one-seventh of the influence in that (louse that his vote would have bad hi the time of Queen Anne.—(Hear, hear.)— However, he admitted that the spirit of Reform was abroad, and it should be their effort so to guide it as to make it contribute to the dignity of the Throne, the stability of the institution, and the welfare of the country.—(Loud cheers.) Lord NEWARK was rather surprised at the observations of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, because previously to the Let dissolution of the Parliament he made a son of appeal to the people of England through that house, declaring that they had the power to return a ma jority to that house if they had only the virtue to exercise the power. (Hear.) There were culpable blots he admitted that ought to he con. rested. He had not been prepared for so sweeping .a mearture. He hoped that the bill in its progress through the house would be some what modified, as it embraced by far too sweeping a destruction ; but he would rather support the bill as it was, than that the country should have oo reform. Lord DARLINGTON complimented the isseole lord who had brought forward the measure, tor the clearness with which he had kid down his plan. He entertained the most profound respect for his Ala jesty's government, and he had no desire to °Niue them ; but he would not come to any ra sh decision. He acknowledged that public opinion had very much altered within the last six months, since the state of affairs in France and Belgium had become known. His lordship next alluded to the variety of opinions that existed in she country. regarding the nature of the reform required—but he confeased that, seeing that for ISO years Englaud had enjoyed more of the confidence of other coun tries than nu other power, with her institutions as they then stood, he could nos but dissent hunt to great an infraction as that which had ' been introduced. He admitted that on account of the peat change which had taken place in public opinion, a reform properly modified was really necessary ; and he did not think that the noble lord should hare proposed to disfranchise those boroughs which he had named, without having provided for them compensation. Many of the cnrpo. rations, he observed, that were by the same measure to be de l rived of their existing privilege of election, hail no charge ever made against them, and he disapproved of this pulling to pieces all corporations be cause it was inferred that some cases existed where the privileets 1 by corporations were abused. lie was glad that the noble rol i rl el w A lt had proposed the measure nod nut included vote by ballot in his plan. /le was convinced that if the measure did pus entire, the people would be placed in • worse situation than they were at present. Lord RBRINGTON thought that he would not he discharging his ditty to his constituents if he did not rise and return thanks to she noble lord who brought forward the measure, to the enlightened Cabinet who had deputed him to propose the measure, and to their royal muter who bath given his sanction to the measure being brought forward.— (Cries of order. order.) An Hon. Member from under the gallery rose to order, and appealed to the Speaker whether or not the noble lord was not conducting him. self contrary to the order of the house. in thus making use of his Ala. jest 's name for the purpose of influencing . a:ilehate. The SPEAKER replied, that the honourable member had asked whether or not the words used by the noble lord were out of order in making use of his Majesty's name to influence debates in that (louse? The honourable member wascertainly right, provided be was correct iu his data, as it was highly Improper to introduce his Majesty's name for the purpose of influencing that House; hut it appeared to hint (the Speaker) that such had not been the cue on the part of the noble lord. His Majesty had the power of dismissing his Ministers from his coon. sell, if he disapproved of their measures; and the noble lord had told the House no more than they had known previously, that his Majesty had that power, should he have considered that his Ministers had acted unconstitutionally. (Hear, bear.) It was, therefore ' the opinion of the Speaker that the noble lord had been perfectly in order when be made the allusion. (Cheering hum the Ministerial Bench.) Lord EBRiNGTON resumed with a few remarks of exultation on the opinion expressed by the Speaker, and repeated hi s a c kn ow . tuent of thanks due to his Majesty's Ministers tor the measure, and he was sure that the same acknowledgment of thanks would be re.ecbued from one end of the land to the other. The noble lord al. luded partieuellothe speech that - bad been delivered by the bon. member Mr rd. be (Lard Ebeingtoo) considered to be a speech abounding wi th contradiction. The hon. member had ;coat tuenced with describing the manner in which debates were conducted in this house, and the improprieties that were introduced in the mod , of the discussions, and he had asked if the age of misrule had begun • and then he instructed them by describing how debates ought to b, conducted. The hon. member hail then proceeded to abuse reforn kt , and had sat down by declaring that he himself acknowledged t h e rt. cessity of reform. With the exception of the hon. member for fond, and the noble lord who had spoken last, none of the speakers w h o had addressed the house on that side had touched upon the main p a ni. culars of the noble lord's measure. But the time was now gone by sh ut arguments would satisfy the people of Birmingham, and other i n , towns, that Old emu's' should hare representatives while they w ,, without representation. He (bird Eltrington) had for some time though t that II cutting off some of the glaring abuses that that would be P u tt. dent—to pat.; off Old Sarum and Gatton. He hoped that the h oc member who represented that place would excuse the allusion he had made to Gatton, fur be had certainly defended, in his place, tbepti. vilege of that borough with a spirit of chivalry that was worthy at s better cause. (Hear, hear.) He (Lord Rbrington) did not intent ; 4 , make any improper allusion to the hon. members who represented tho u places; tot it rather reflected credit on such lion. Members. a:: , ; showed that the Government of the country could not be prop et h carried into effect without so many Old Serums and Gattons.—(A laugh.) He had once been of opinion that the removal of th e „. istcnce of the representation of such places would he suflicier k; but latterly he had changed his opinion, and he hailed with sou,. faction§ the measure that had now emanated from Government a . the only efficient means of remedy, anti when it passed the Hou k , as he had no doubt but that it would pass the House—that „ would gain that approbation of the public, and would restore d i , confidence of the public iu that House.—(Hear, hear, hear.) H, would consider himself the greatest enemy to &form if he inter. fered with the details of the measure; he would be ready to aban don any of his own opinions that might exist, rather than throw die. culties in the way of the bill passing. lie had the honour to represent a large number of constituents, and a great portion of whom were fa. vuurable to vote by ballot, but he would not be afraid to tell them that lie had given up his opinion on that subject, rather than to risk t h t bill not passing. Ale though, that the rejection of the Bill would widen the bleach that, he was sot ry to say, had existed between those out of doors and this house. The confidence of the country would be es. tirely witlitiraon front the house. (Cries of hear, and no, no.) Gen. tienien might say no, no ; but as an honest man, he had not ex. pressed one word more than he believed, and he appealed to the nouse, whether or not such being its belief, that he ought not t o state it to he house. Lord STORBIONT did not Ilse with the In' -ntion of opposing ti:, measure, but be would contend that time should be allowed the country to express their approbation or disapprobation of the measure. The mild, lord in bringing forward his measure had classed them into bigots l\'. fanatics; he (Lord Talbot) would attach himself to that class desig. need bigots, and lie would leave the fanatics to defend themselves untie' their Mambrino helmets of annual parliaments and universal suffrage, He had to object to the manner and the time at which the motion had been brought forward. It had been told them at an early pact of Os session, that it was to he a cabinet measure ; but the motion had been brought forward by a noble lord who was not a member of his Majesty': cabinet. He deprecated the system of threats and intimidation that had been eopted by the noble Chancellor, that he would dissolve par liament if the bill did not pass : but he (Lord Talbot) hoped that no member in that house would be intimidated by these threats. An her. baronet (Sir J. Sebright) opposite, had indulged in depicting the fat. ful consequences in the country if the bill was rejected, on the previous evening, and had thus introduced intimidation of another description: hut it' any member In the house would he intimated even by these threats, he would just be as unworthy of his seat as that hom but was of the seat be occupied on that bench opposite. (Cries of order.) WitO regard to the time that the motion had been introduced, he ohjectei that the noble lord should have deferred it till the public feeling had been so excited by the events that had taken place in the sur rounding countries. He (Lind Talbot) filled a malium situation in the House, in having to face the advocates of the measure, while he had on his right hand the Achilles of Anti-reform ; and he (Lord Talbot) danger had no hesitation in avowin g himself his Patroclus. He would can. tion the government of the of leaving an impression on th e minds of the people that Reform had been wrung - from the fears of the Rouse. He (Lord Talbot) happened to have the honour to represent one et those boroughs, the population of which, was under two thousand ; 'eat it could not change in numbers because the town was surroun.led en tirely with a wall, but the wall had all crumbled down (laughter), and none could vote who did not live within the walls. (A laugh.) He, Lord Talbot, could not have discovered a name for the measure if he had even searched all the lexicons In the language, had not the noble lord himself supplied his measure with a name, by calling it a budge: of reform. (Continued laughter.) The same principle should extend to all the country. Why, then, were two members left to Tavistock (Hear, hear, hear.) Why two to Knareshorough ? With respect tee Scotland, it was the wish of the Government that the representation there should he popular. Now Scotland was never intended to have a popular representation, but only a representation of the land and of the owners of the land. From what he knew of Scotland, the ten poen& franchise was equal to universal suffrage. With respect to petitions. he would contend that the r•oroch people would he more ready :o pet:. tion against having any Parliament at all—(" Oh !") He had cwt DIM to oppose the Bill ; he called upon Members to allow it to go forth— (hearthat the people might be made acquainted with Its scope and hearings. Ile was neither for running blintlfold into the measure, ncr for blindly refusing to consider it. However, if he at present understood it, Reform was Revolution ; Property, Spoliation ; and sooner or later Religion would be Atheism.—(Hear.) Sir J. IWALSH must be allowed to say that the clear and In. urinous statement ot, the Noble Lord was sufficient to make the scope and bearings of the measure at once understood. He con. feased they appeared to him to involve au entire change in the constitution, to involve not so much a Reform as a new form of Government.—(Hear.) Without tiring the House with all his objections, lie should say thet the one which first struck him was, that the bill was intended to blend two principles, Loth of whi,h appeared to him eproneous. He could not think that at the very early period of our history to which the Noble Lord reverted, this cnuntr enjoyed any of the blessings of liberty, nor that the institutions of out first Henries, when the manners and customs were an different fr:nm those of the present day, should be held up as the model from which to copy our own. Far front the Commons being then held in esti mation, he believed the reason of their becoming a serarate Houk was that the Peers disdained to bold cam o diem ion with rers,la. so interier. The other erroneous principle was the relati..n which the No. ble Lord contended should exist between representation and rroperty. When it was so difficult to specify time amount of ptuperty which ga , -. a right to the elective franchise, the question amid be only one of s-. pediency, and whether the present system of electors did not work ..• well as the one proposed. IVith respect to the petitions on wide!, 11.. Noble Lord had laid so much stress, they prayed for retrenchment.— besides Reform—and considered them as subjects strictly united wit!. each other. Now, had not the Government ea eclared that, consistently with the welfare of the State, they could not effect a reduction of las &Hoe, but only a reduction of patronage ? The coostquence woe. that either the Reform would disappoint the people by rot in• voicing retrenchment, or if it did involve retrerchment, would he ircor. sistent with the welfare of the State. In his opinion, - any reform with out retrenchment would not satisfy the expectation in which the poi+ were taught to indulge. The true mode for the members of that Iwo( to satisfy the people was, not to sacrifice themselves, not to give way u each fluctuating popular caprice, but to rely on the good sense and nesty of the people, on their indulgence towards those who did the..r duty, and to give their vote according to the dictates of their consektme.. Such, in his opinion. was the best mode of satisfying the people. H would go farther, and say if it were not, still it was the members' dcv., to consider the subject, not with reference to the will, but with reform to the interest of the people and of their descendants. He felt that the!' (the members) resembled a jury deciding on a case of life and tlesilt Il'ould that jury. if addressed by a great popular clamour (tom withetr, he justified in allowing it to sway their decision ? They were tlecidir,:. not on the life of an individual, hut on the life and destiny of the country. Were they not bound to decide the question upon its out , merits alone ? NIT.. DI ACAULEY said when he considered that every person in tha: House had been employing his mind on the question of Reform, he had apprehended that the plan to be proposed by the noble lord could not meet with such general approbation even from the friends of Refore' as it had received. He considered it a wise and noble measure for yo'- manentlyknittlng together all orders and classes in the community.-- The plan proceeded on the wise principle that it was desirable to uni% all:the middle classes of the people with those who now exercised cal power without any violent change. (Hear, hear, from the (1.,70,i --tion.) He thought the measure proposed by Government well ei.lcu lated to produce that effect, to unite.all the property and intelligsree t': the country in support of its institutions. He did not mean to .ay that the same form of Government was suited to every country. He be lieved there were countries Dr which universal suffrage was good for the people. (No, no.) If all the labourers of Raglan] were at all times well employed.—if wages were always high—it the neecisni, of lee were always within the reach of the labourer, however large his ,amily. then he shank' not scruple to give universal suffrage. They had it it America, and bs was . not prepaid to admit that the people of Engls.-: I I I lI G f" IJ, 161; . 0 ! .t•t I L t t t 1 1..' ; i~ ~~ t