Star. — London, England, 1803-06-03 00:00:00

nifters, which was, in his mind, the moll injurious fort oldelence fir their cnnehiet. 'flank Noble Lords who proletled themfelves fiends, could poflibly let up for them ; and fore he was, they mutt be much more obliged to thole who urged that enquiry, which gave them an opportunity of vindicating or explain ing the ir conduit, and th.tt were the motion for ad journment to pals in this Itage of the Wind's, it would much more tend to damp the public (pint than the fulled enquiry which could take place. The Noble Lord then proceeded to enquire into the various items of the Correfpondenee tinted in the pointed copy of the N e gotiation, and argued, that his Majelly's Doi Miters, intlead of maintaining the honour and dignity of the Country, by Ipitited and film remonitrances againil the fit!! Reps of aggreffion on the part of the Ftench Confill, and thereby checking, in the firft initance, the infuits offered to this Country, or have instantly telioned hollilities, as they have ultimately found theinfelves obliged to do, they (poke in a tone co low, timid, and patlive, that fo far liom checking it, encouraged infult, and induced the French Con ful to proceed tni fuch lengths, as left it almoft impoflible for him to recede without fuch concef lions as his pride would not brook. This was the cafe in the fief letter of Lord Hawke(bury to the re monftrance of M. Otto. It was the cafe alto in the condua of Nlinilters upon the million of the French Military Spies into this country under the guile of Commercial Agents, who, inflead of being fent hack in the timid manner they were, Mould have been in- Bandy feized, and fuch a remonfirance fent back to France as would have fliaken the Thuilleries to its foundation. The like condua was vifible in the re ply to the remonftrance of the trench Conful, de manding the espullion of the French Princes ; upon which occafion filch language was put into his Ma jelly's mouth by his Minillers, as he was confident never could have been the fentiments of the Royal mind. A like tamenefs was obvious in the condua of Minifters, on the occafion of the public infult and audacious menace offered by the Firil Conful to the British Ambaffstdor at his levee ; in all of which cafes, and many others flitted in the papers upon their Lord !hips' table, his Majefly's Minifters had aaed in fuch a manner as to compromife the honour of this Coun try, and leffen its refpe& in every nation of Europe. But while his Majefty's Minifters were thus proceed ing, Rep by Rep, to an obvious and inevitable war; and even after they themfelves had taken fuch pro ceedings in the affairs of Switzerland, as werea dire& violation of the treaty of Amiens,and which they mull be convinced France would confider as a caufe of war not to be overlooked, Rill did they tenacioufly with hold every fort of communication from both Houfes of Par liament on the fubjea of negotiation, though repeatedly preffed for come explanation on that head and will had they amufed the Houle with aiFurances of peace, and the moll folemn declarations that they knew no caufe which was likely to provoke hoftillties between the two Countries. Yet after all, and almoft at the moment when there pacific affurances were at the Ilrongeft, they come down to announce the necef fity of hint ilearmaments, and very fhortly afterwards proceed to a manifeflo announcing the recal of their Ambaffador, and the declaration of hoftilities. From there circtimflances the Noble Lord argued that it was impoffible thole Minifters could (in this arduous struggle, which he agreed with the Noble Lord de manded the molt general unanimity and the molt per lea union of our common exertions) poffefs the con lideuce of the people. His wills was, therefore, that the truly great talents of the country Ihould be called to unite with his Majelty's Councils on this moll ar. &loos and important occafion, without which it would be impoflible to attach the confidence of the country to thole who now conduaed the Government, or to obtain for this nation the refpea of Europe. He concluded by voting for rd Fitzwilliam's motion. CAiRNARVOII fps ke on the fame fide with the Lift Noble Speaker, and traverfed much of the fame grounds, to ofciting the incapacity of the prefent l',lini(lers, who, for want of firrrnefs, had firft made that peace for which they had Iliipped this country cf the principal pat t of her viaot ie., and moll valu able acquifitions, during a nine years war, upon the affurance that it was to be a permanent and folk! peace : but which they now acknowledged to have been only a peace of expel iment, on the permanence of which they never ahlolutely relied ; but which they made chiefly with a view to gain time for recruiting their strength, and a chance cf ienniting the powers of Europe in another fragile to check the pc.wer of France: Thus, after fact Mg the country to enjoy a ltlLtcinns tepr're of two years in this fraudulent peace, they had Again involved her in a war, which they were unable to condos% and in which they could not hope to have the confidence of the count' y. Ile cot:chided by voting with laad Cat litic. Lord ELLE NIIOSOUGH declared, that it wat not hie intention to travel over the many tr pies which had been fpoken on by a Noble leoid oppoilte ham ; but it appeared to him elite n•ely wrong «i prom - mince 'spoil a caufe unaudited, :oaf to place Minitleib in littattion of great relit.nniil);:ity with A m us ed reptita• taw. The rerpea and efteem which he felt for the charaCters of his 'Majeily's coeti.lential ler vants, both in their public and private capacity, made him indig nant at the frequency of fuch refleainas, both on their integrity and capacity, and there obtervations lonic times coming from perfons who knew notifies at all, compared with the perfont whom they reviled. It was clearty manifetl from the papers on their Lordflips' table. that every exertion haul been made, which was confute-a with our national honour and national dig nity, to prelerve peace to this Country, and to Et« Top: in general. mi. integrity of principle, this in• delAtig.able 7eal, and this moll laudable endeavour of his Majells's Government, had failed throuth the tepeated aa• of Willi and aggravation on the part tif the french Government: and yet, though an acetim•iistion of thele numerous faas was a fnl clew noire for the commencement of hoftilities, he defied any of their Lordthips to lay their hand upon the P triers nn the table, and point out say rme which, at a time of complete amity and good under 'landing between nations, would not have been deem cd a fatfic Late cattle for v ar Some alluflon had been made t,, the coodoa of Minillers from the time o' their c..m.iitt int,. power. He called upon their Lordships to rec• lleft the critical nwment at which tha• ece tat LI place, ard the many difficulties with which th-y laid to itroegle. la particular, there were two ot.j els l•nhy of the moil feriousconfideration: Clouds then hovered over the north of Europe, and d.o 'stool ocry moment, which required cln utmofl ingenuityand promptitude in liatemen to difpelthem. l The 1 - ,:c.nd was, a confideration which delicacy for- i bid him to enlarge upon in the prefenr fituation of our public affairs, [probably the illnefs of his Majctly.] i i Thefe were circumllances which, combined with ma ! ny others, mull obvinufly create much difficulty in the! managementof publicaffairs, and filch as could not be withflood by perfons of ordinary ability, or of ordi- I nary zeal. The effort to accomplifh and to maintain peace had been made, and its completion had hen pronounced latisfaCtory to the country b; the general conclamation of the people. Himielf for one, was diffident at the time. He looked at the perfon who domineered hi the councils of Europe ; he lool:ed at Bonaparte himfelf. In him he faw no fleadinels, but lleadinels to a (trong ambitious principle, by which he feemed principally to regulate his mind. He did not think it conflitent with the ruhs of the Hnufe at pre• fent to enter into a difctiffion of the Treaty of Amiens. But after that treaty had been concluded, he thought it Frfeilly corren, from his general obfervatinn of the politics of Europe, and the heft deduitions that he could draw from the fails prefented to his view, to hufband our forces and preferve our ftrength, not with a fraudulent defign for an infraction of that Treaty which we then had figned, but with a moll pure intention to preferve that peace which was then figned between us and France, and with it to preferve the peace of Europe. The only queftion appeared to him to be, not whether the war was tight or wrong, (for that had been already decided,) bit whether the conduit of Minifters was right or wrong ? The approbation of their contian, as far as related to the negotiation, as whatever paired between Great Britain and France, from the fignature of the Treaty of Amiens, he conceived to be fo intimately con• neited with the approbation of the war in which we were now involved, that he mill declare his lenti. ments agaitill fuch a ridiculous dittinCtion ; he thought ! it rather unflittefmati•like to be always running our I elbows in nor neighbour's fide. The who e condua of his Majesty's confidential fervants, he contended, was regulated with a greater dcgree of propriety, and fupported with more ability, th ill if it had been hip ported with the Herculean Ihoulders of fome per font who feemed to be pointed out at prefent as their fuccetTors. A Noble Lord had laid, that the deten tion of 'hips was a fufficient carafe for war. But he begged their Lordfhips to confider, that every coun try had a right to frame their own laws ; and by a navigation ail, veffels might be liable to feizure in one country which were perfeilly legal in another, notwithflanding which the utmost cordiality might he then fubfilling between them. In fupport of this, he inflanced avariety of cafes, and ditplayed great know ledge of the maritime law of Europe. But the prin ciple on which he complained of the enailment of any law for the detention of thipping was, where that law was invented and palled in an ill-natured or ill minded moment of the Government th•tt enailed it. Even that appeared to his mind only a juts cattle of fufpicion, and a fufficient reafon that we fhould watch the motions of fssch Government, and endeavour to recruit our national strength. It was a great num ber of different cantles, one fuperadded to the other, which occafioned him to think a war at prefent jut. tifiable. The Chief 'Corifill himfelf had laid, that if we did not evacuate Malta, he fhould confider the nonfulfilment of an article of a treaty, the fame ac it we had aaually crmmcnced hottilities. By a fimilar line of reafoning, we fhould confider the mitfion of Sebafliani, to a country not only at peace with them, but friendly to us alto—his viewing the nature and extent of their harbours, the ltrength of their chief ! towns, and the condition of their forts, conflating it with that General's visit to another place where he had the Chief Conful publicly prayed for, and alio ' with his reflations on the gallant General who corn- mended one forces at Egypt, and all thole who ferv.' ed under him. By the Chief Conful's own line of reafoning, we had a right fairly to confider thefe AS lo many overt ails againft the peace of this coun try. The moll frivolous oblation of all he heard, to him alai:eared to be that, complaining that Miniflers had not come down and informed Parliament of each of thefe tranfaitions. What ! mull the tsliniftets of a country be fuppoleci to be bound to commit the Government in a difpute with a foreign power, by a publication of whatever may be the fubjeft of difeuf lion, and every thing relating thereto, when the hu lloes is Co trifling in itfelf, that, though a reafonable! ground of fufpicion, it may molt probably be adjult- ' ed by negotiation 1 The Noble Lord then made an animated appeal to the feelings of Englithmen, to unite in the common caufe for the good of their coun try, and concluded with expreffing his molt fincere with and re:iance on the patrititilm of the Houle in the to elent crifis, that their Lordlhips would unani madly agree with him in fupportitig the motion of at.ki'l.linnitnt. Earl Se v Nes R firongly fupported the motion, and went river feveral faits in the hianry of the affairs of &rat Britain and France, in order to thew bow badly Knitters had conduited the affairs of the public ever fince they made the Treaty of Peace. An enquiry,', therefore, into their conduit was abfolutely necefra- ry. It wa; necetrary at the prefent momentous zri- fis, that the people of the country fhould know what fort of men they were to whom the management of their affairs was to be entrusted. It was fit, when great facrifices of money were to be made, that the ' people fhould know fomething of the manner in which it had been laid out. He was ready to make every facrifice in his power, and to contribute as much as he could towards carrying on the war in which we were jail engaged. if he was certain it would be conduited with ability and vigour. Lord Viittount Mitt.vir.t.a oppofed the Motion for a cenfitre on Minifters. He obferved that the objetl of the motion was neither more nor left than an Ad chefs to his Islajefly to remove his fervants from their •ifficial fituations. He walled thole Noble Lords, , who pre Ted this ruble& fo Itrongly, would, for a moment, costfider the inconvenience of loch a nn- 1 iron as that. He would afk them whether, at the i time they were calling fo loudly for the removal of thefe Miniflers, they had fixed on the perfons by whom they were to be fucceeded ? If they had not, what mutt be the confequence of placing the country in a fituation without any of the funetions of the Ex ecutive Government I Let Noble Lords recolleit the period of Lord North's Adminiflration. The ! Parliament and the country became quite clamorous at that time for the removal of the perfons then in office : they were at length removed ; and what was the coacquence 1 Another Acninittration, , difordant in its nature and principle, was clicien and from the : wane of axreement between thole who compoled it, their plans did not fucceeJ, and the new tangled Adminiltration haled but for a i very few months. He deprecated the idea of bring ing forward cuellions of this kind, at the pretent time, when every Manlier of Parliament ought to unite in deviling the moil effeelual means for re pelling the common enemy. Was it therefore pre per, at fuch a cliffs, that the Houfe fhould he occu pied in debates on lubjeCls of a perfonal nature that they lhould be dirculfing polemical queltions, when every heart and hand ought to join for the deft nee of the Country. The qtterlion now %AS, not whether the terms of the late Peace were good or bad, but whether the War lhould be prof - coned with vigour ? The Houle mull recollea, that at the time the prefent Milliners came into office, they had two moll impor tant di.ficrilties to fin niount. Th.: expedition had failed for Egypt at 'he time, and another expedition was projeard againit the Not thern Powers of Ertropz• There two expeditions were eminently fireceisful. A Noble Lord, who wiflied to deprive the late Minifiers of all kind of merit, and particularly with relped the expedition to Egypt, which they had planned, thought proper to fay, that theyhad ordered Sir Ralph A bercromby to withdraw his troops front the place, Inch he refill - eel to do. This ss as a moll unjuft charge, not only againfl the late Minillers. but againft the great and gallant General, whole name had been mentioned only for the purpcift: of hating, v i.hout any foundation, that he had been guilty of a difobe ' thence of orders. His Lordfhip took oectifion to ex , profs his forrow and regret at having heard a Noble ' Lord fpeak of the Cape of Good Hope, as of a place of no value to this Country. He held an opinion directly the reverie; he confidered it as a Ration which molt at all times be highly beneficial to this Coun try : and to powerfully was he imprelied with the importance of that place, that had he been concerned in makingthe late Treaty of Peace, he never would have contented to give up the Cape ; he would have inlilled on retaining it forallis Country. He did not, however, blame Minifters for what they had done; but he thought it neceffitry to declare what his feel ings were on the occalion. The Noble Lord con— cluded with oppofing the motion, and voting for the queflion of adjournment. Lord SUFFOLK laid, it fometimes happened that officers were under the necellity of difobeying their orders: for inftance, when Lord St. Vincent and Sir C. Grey had been fent out to the Well Indies, with orders to attack St. Domingo, they difobeyed thole orders by attacking Martinique and Guadeloupe.— They knew the abierrdity of the firft order; and their fuccefs was a jullification of their condo Ct. Lord Hoearcr laid, he did not approve of the mo tion for adjournment ; becaufe it implied that Mini nets were afraid of difcuiling the charges brought againflthem: He could aline the Houfe, that his Majefty's Minißers would, on the contrary, be at all times ready to meet any charge which fhould be brought againh them. They were confcious of the ret.r:itude of their intentions and their fincere endea. yours to promote the intereft of the Country, as far as lay in their power. But, for his own part, he would not agree to any thing like the compromife pi-opened in the motion for adjournment, becaufe, if that was carried, it would leave Minitters in the fame hate as before it was made. Lord Caayssoar obferved, that from the time of his Majelty's Mdfage to that Houle, until the com mencement of the War, no communication whatever had been made by Minilters as to the (fate of the Country; and that circumflance alone was a fufficient ground for cenfuring their condua. He ftrungly cup ported Lord Fitn%illiam's motion. Lord ALVANLEY obferved, that as the objeft of the motion was to pals a cenfure on his Majelty's Mini tters, the proper and regular mode of proceeding on fuch an occafion would have been to move for aCom mince of Enquiry, which thould examine every fpe cific fa Ft with which hlinitlers might be charged ; but it would be impofEble to examine their conduit in any debate which might strife from a look and general motion. Inch as that now before the Houk. Lord GRENVILLE laid, he could not fee any differ ence, whether the ptefent dilcuffion took place in a Committee or before the Houle. It might as well come on in the Ihape of a general quellion before the Houle, becaule it was generally known, by repeated experience, that the condo& of the King's Servants was highly cenfurahle, and that they polreffed neither talents nor capacity to infpire confidence in the coun try. The advocates for Minifters now &fired that Ipecific charges might be brought againit theta.—Fos his part, he was ready to accept the challenge, and bring forward his charges. He would first call the a:tention of the Hnufe to the intervals that had elapfed between the bringing down or the King's Meffage on the 9th of March, and the breaking out of holtiiities. During all that time, the public bufinefs met with no interruption from any motion made in Parli-ment ; and if it fliould appear that during the whole of that time the King's fervants kept Parliament in the dark, as to every point which fhould have been made known, he believed there could be no difference of opinion as to the refponfibiiity and cenfure they had rendered themfelves liable to. But he would go farther back than that period. At one time before the ligning of the definitive treaty, Minifters argued on the prac ticability of fulfilling the treaty relative to Malta, al. though they then knew that theSpanifh Priories which belonged to the Order, had been aboliffied by the Court of Spain. The peace concluded with France was now laid to have been nothing mote than an ex periment, made with the hope of enfuring a Peace. Yet this Country gave up a great many things, and difbanded numbers of men, as if the Peace was quite fccure ; and as it it could be fuppofed, that the man whole ambitious views our arms in she time of war were unable to check, would let us be at rest in time of peace. Itfiniders, therefore, had left the Houle in pofieffion of an opinion, which they knew could not he the fad ; and made extraordinary conceffions, in the expeaation that their experiment would be fuccefsful. At the prorcgation of Parliament which, took place lag hmmer, the Speaker, in the name of the Houk of Commons, thanked his Maietly for having given to the country the bleffings of peace.-- Minaters certainly knew at that time, although per haps the Speaker did not, that it would be impolfi- Ile to fulfil the Treaty of Peace. He maintained. n public conditutional principles, that in all cafes of difficulty, and in all 'haulms of moment, it I ad been ufual for tolittillers to lay the hate of the = e.enntry Patrament. TIT would cliri7.crge any man to ' , Hot o!it a p;:i ins! ;i - c.:!t and o nant with W..t, f , as that ot tior 11•(.: N cocci i!! W.is rot ma hr to Parham. c:. h t!.e Oth' i trt, Such was sion , in 0u: reign ,•t . King Wil i are. Qttel Anne fr rimier ti y alkerl the advice of het Parlia ment under cir eunolanc of d'lirn,:y. a die Itiil Int:wier and more con.iitnti one! reigns i f Georg.:. I. rind George 11. iimilar c irinntiniratir.ns I had always been made. :Lod wt;lld alk if there s% as. any thing in thole rc'gns, quit in sl.lng..r to the fi!nation in which this e,nintry was now placed ? Was it poilible to luppole that Pa.lniment could dif charge its duty, if la!ls of Inch iToprwtance were k concealed from it ? The Power with c. hieL the cour.- try had made pea:e wa.. found to nave brr.l.en it fix weeks alter; yet no,hinr! Many tir;ngs took place belie the nierting ..f 1 1 .411 ; a• Mein in November loft, which we- e not noticed.— Even the late declaration of his M did not 1., y a word of the unjtitt refufal on the part of France to reaorc to Britifh lubjefts their property in that coun try. With regard to the fendinri of Commercial Commirrioners, he believed the fa& was known to Minillcrs before laft November; yet, no notice was taken. It was his firm belief that ibis country was not fit to etA in Europe, if the was prepared to I beat with fuch conduct as this from France, UitlieVt !making any remandrance or reprefcatation. The French had prefcribed the cliilance of four leagues from their coaft, within which our vefrels were not !to navigate. By that very na we mull have been I cut off from the Ifland of Alderney, yet we fub mitted to it. There was not a civic complaint againa France for her conduct with regard to Piedmont, Elba, Switzerland, Egypt, &c. that did not exalt before Schalliani made his report. He could not find that any reprefentations had been made relative to the occupation of Holland by French troops, former than the 9th of Feb. Yet. while the troops were (lilt there, his Majeft)'s Mini tiers fent out orders to evacuate the Cape of Go. d Hope. They would not evacuate I`.liika, becarife the guarantee of the Emperor of Ruffia could not be ob tained. When was that feel known? He would tell Miniflers, that they knew it could not be obtained at the very time when the Treaty of Amiens was figned. —The proofs refpeCting Egypt were not before the Houle. He had been fome time fince idol med by an intelligent Statefman, who was MI then arrived from Paris, the general converfation there was, that the Fira Conful was folely occupied upon the re poll feffroa of Egypt. Sii months after it had become impnffible to fulfil the article refpeeling Malta, the Englifh Ambaffadors at Berlin and St. Peterfburgh bad been direfled to apply to thofe Courts to °bun% their guarantee, although it was known that this part of the Treaty was impraificable. Miniaeri had been guilty of a grofs, manifeft, and criminal breach of duty, in permitting Parliament to meet, without making to it a tingle communication. He reprobated the precedent of excluding Parliament from any judgment on fuch an occafion. What was the effe& upon commerce and funded property ;rout this fituation ? Their Lord (hips all knew the impref. lion which had been created in this great city by the King's Meffege on the 9th March, alter the afTrirances that had been previoully given of the maintenance of Peace. His Lordfhip laid, he di,: not know what fuccefs he had had in proving a violation of the Con. • flitution by the Kiag's Miniflers; but he had nn choice as to the path of duty. He concluded with giving his hearty negative to the motion fur adjournment. The Logo CIi•PICELLOR faid,he could by no means give his affent to the Motion for adjournment, and conceived it would be a sigma on his eharaaer. were he to do fo. What would be the fentiments of the country ? what opinion would the Firft Conful enter tain, if in the first debate after the breaking out •of the war, a kind bf declaration—not a pofitive one to be fare, but a negative declaration—were to be made, that hliniflers were to retain their fitoations, or to be trotted, only . to fuch an extent as it might be convenient to truth them ? If fuch high principles ac tuated Noble Lords, as were avowed, it was their duty to perfill ; but if the propofitions did not appear to the Houfe to be fair, it was its duty silo to refill them. Motions tending to degrade Mioilters, if thofe Mini. Eters be intended to conduct the war, mull be molt mifchievous, not only by cmharrafring Government, but by infufing into the people a fufpicion that Go vernment was unequal to its duty. His Lordship here commented upon the Refolutions, and then referred to the circumflances of the peace. In the framing of the Treaty, reference had always been had to the Preis delivered at Lille. After the papers which re. hated to that Negotiation were laid before Parliament, the quefiion heceme no longer a queflion of peace Well, but of the ter ms of peace ; and if England could obtain terms equal to thofe which were offered at Lille, peace ought to be obtained. The peace pro. cured by the Treaty of Amiens was equally good with that which would have been made had the P. pre fenced at Lille been acceded to by France.—His Lord. (hip here replied to all the arguments urged by Lord Grenville on the events which had happened (inc. the Definitive Treaty, and refuted the charge of Mini. Eters having been guilty of a breach of duty, in the particular inflame of their long faence on the fish alt of the late difctiffions. He contended, that they had followed the practice of former times, and mention ed the eircumnances preceding the commencement of the late war, the ditcufhions relative to which had commenced in May, and there was no communica tion to Parliament till November. In the affair of the Ituffian armament, the interval was fill loner. Were his Majetly's Minifters/to fubmit to a :rind:ca. tion, fuch as the queflion of adjournment would ins. ply, they would Jo that which would equally favour el mjAice and abfurdity. He trotted their cotirltofi relied on no loch vindication ; for conreibus of hay. ing done the bed they c•olid for thc r country, they bad no apprehenfi ins from apr e.iiiag to its jnli;ce ; and abfurd indeed would it be in them to Coolse et a motion of adjournment ns die prelmt qu-tlirter, which would only terve to paralyze their exertions in the arduous caule to which they were now pledged, and thus furnifh a new pretence for rerh.ing, at the end of a moult or fix week., a motion for their cm lure and removal. Lord Mu Lot are •indica:cd apa'n:l the charge of it.juft ice and ablurdity, which, htd it come from another Noble and Learr‘d Lord, t lUM.e times nes enlfiAt with no very diicri uinat r y . he fhould not lisve minded fo much as coming ((Au --.• 6.-A_ `. I