Star. — London, England, 1817-02-18 00:00:00

0 e House, but by the total subversion of the Con-1 afitution. Such consequences flowed by direct de-1 euction from those pi inciples. nod therefore he ti.ought it necessary to oppose. at its very first be ginning, what was to end in ruin. The House and cnoatry were rnnch ohFged to his Honottrab;e enrl for not allowing the obstrvation of the Ho w-no-Ale and Learned Gentleman to pass unnoticed. To yield the least ft citing would, be to admit the principle, that the House, as it stood, was not an adequate representation Of the people. He con tended that it was, as much as it ever had been or could be. Let the Hctiae meditate on the six or seven plans of Pat liamentary Reform which hail been offered, and let it beware. If it took a single step it would give wa), net to a definitive syst..m tf altera tions, but it would fail from the deep to a lower deep from the lower to the lowest deep, into a state of inexii icahle conl usion.— (Hear, hear.) Mr. TIERNEY said, t'.at on his conscience he did nut think Pailiament weird all that interests of the people to as great an ereot as it might. His own olij 'et was to make the House gradually and practi cally a true representative of the interests of the peo ple. B. paid that he would nit stir. The Right Honourable Gentleman was c , itainly the only man in his Majesty's dominions...oho thought that no good could be produced by any plan of Reform. It was natural to feel alarm at some of those which had been sugges'ed ; but if the Wight Honoitrable. Gen tleman said no specks of It, form whatever could yield advantage, lie Thought he should never find a seconder. As to Annual Parliaments and. Universal Suffrage, he had heard the eloquence used towards the Noble Lord to induce him to withdraw his sup port from them; but what could speak more elo quently to the Noble Lord than what had taken place that night. when he heard the Right Honour able Gentleman, the avowed enemy of Reform, call upon him to go on ?—( Hear, hear.) If, alter that, the Noble Lord persisted in his course, he must cease to believe th.t lie was acting for the good of the people, and consider that, instead of serving the cause of Reform. he was playing into the hands of the Gen tlemen opposite.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had mentioned with a snikr the wish ex pressed, that the friends of Reform should make up their differences. Did lie mean to say that he had got a monopoly of making up differences?—(Near, hear.) How had he and those about'him, lie would inquire, made up their differences ? If they had done that, he thought no plan too extravagaitt not to be effected. Great alarm had been expressed, that it any thing was resolved, GOD alone could know where it would end : that the door once set open, every thing would rush through it. Bat in another instance lie chi not find that to have been the case. He had heard it ;aid, that of all the most mischievous men in the cournry, Lord Camden was the most mischievous. He had opened a door, but he did not see that it led beyond.—{Near, hear, hear.) In fact, the Noble Lord opposite ((...istlereagli) had stopped the whole short. He had given no encouragement or follow the Prince Regent's example: he had quickly dissipated the alarm which had prevailed amongst the holders of ' sinecures, and caused them to rest perfectly satisfied wild what had been done.—(blear, hear.) As to another Honourable Friend, he could not say what his sentiments might be resrecting other things besides Parliamentary Reform ; for he had been Chairman of a Sinecure Committee, and had gone so tar as to say that two Paymasters were not necessary to receive one salary. Was he not afraid of having committed a great, inroad on the Constitution by expressing such Mntiments?—(Hear, hear, hear.) Mr. LY TTLETON defended his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham) from the attacks of a Noble Lard (Cochrane). He considered that the worst enemies of - Reform were those strange. un constitutional innovators, whose advocate the Noble Lord (Cochrane) was in the House, and his seconder the Right Honourable' Gentleman opposite (Mr. Canning). Lord COCHRANE assured.the House, that had the Honourable and Learned Menthe, confined him self to reprove his conduct, he should have remained silent; but he had felt himself obliged to come for. ward when improper imputations hail been thrown on those whose conduct he believed to be honourable, and they had been represented as deceivers or decei ved. He did not blame him for the opinions which he might have once entertained, and those be might now express in an altered tone; but he thought that his aspersions ought at least to have beeri less severe. Nothing personal had in any degree originated with fernsell—he had thrown no imputation on any one. He had stated his opinion, that Triennial Parliaments would do no good—that seats would be sold, and majoeities obtained in that House, as they now were. And be bad the authority of the Learned Gentleman himself for asserting that more good was effected, during the last year of - a Parliament than in any ofl thesreceding ones—chat it cotinterbalanced all' the evils of the others—and that the cause of that diffe rence was the appeal which the Members found they Must make to their Constituents. When the great question of Parliamentary Reform should be discussed he trusted that it would be with open doors, that the country might be made acqu.einted with all the de bates in that House.—/Oreier, Order.) He meant, that the country should'be enabled to ascertain that her interests had been fully and fairly discussed.— (Hear, hear.) Mr. BROUGHAM did not understand what the, Noble Lord meant by an altered tone. He denied havintaltered or lowered his tone either with regard to the question itself, to the Noble Lord, or to his abettors elsewhere. He could not refrain, however, from alluding to one topic which the Noble Laird had introduced. He had spoke" of a certain influence, not that of the Crown, not that atisiog from the in structions of Constituents, bet one whiih was un known within the walls of that House :he had seemed to refer to the intimidation of that souse itself by the reople. Warm as he was in the *cause of- Parliamen tary Reform, he held that it tniat be supported by other means that by intietidatiear and if he heard one single writ &more from the Noble Lord upon the sub ject, he should be one of the first to join either in postponing the discussion of the question, aim die, or in taking all the Means which could be used to prevent the exercise of the influence to which the Noble Lord hid alluded.— (Hear, hear.) Lord COCHRANE having explained, the Peti tion was received, and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. CROKER presented an account of the Sala- . riel of the Secretaries of the Admiralty for the hot year, and a statement of any increase made to them lon account of the late war against the Del of Al• ed to be on the table. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Mr. DICKENSON presented a petition. nume rously signed by the Owners and Occupiers of Land, in the counties of Somerset and Gloucester, com plaining of the distresses by which the Agricultural Class are overwhelmed at present, by the pressure of taxes and poor-rates, the high price of the necessa ries for their occupation, and the inadequate price of produce. He talc occasion to speak highly in praise of the patience and fortitude with which these per sons endured the calamities by which they are now afflicted, and of the respectful tone of the petition, as well as their confidence in the interference of ?orna ment for the adoption of such measures as should be deemed most efficient for their relief. The petitio ners in particular prayed, that there might be some alteration made in the Corn Laws of ISIS, which they described as totally inadequate to the protec tion of the cultivators of the soil ; and they h-iped for the support of his Majesty's Ministers to assist in pro moting any more effectual measure which might he proposed to the House, or that they (Ministers) would themselves come forward with any plan o hich they might think fitted to attain the desired object. He moved that the petition be brought up. The petition was then brought up, read, and • or dered to lie on the table. Lord CAS I'LEREAGH tof,lc this opportunity of requesting an Honourable Member orposite to post pone front Thursday till *Friday a notice which he had given respecting the Poor Laws, as it was not likely that there would be so full an attendance on Thorsday as was desirable on the discussion of so important a question. Mr. CURW EN said be had no objection to com ply with the wish of the Noble Lord—indeed the im portance of the subject was such, that when there was any prospect of a thin attendance in the House he could not hesitate about postponing it. Referring to the petition which was last presented, he said that the distresses of the country could not be stated higher than they really were. But at the same time he did not think that the petitioners had a . true notion of the proper means by which relief was to be obtained. If-he - had been in Parliament at the time that the Corn Bill or 1815 passed, he should cer tainly have voted in favour of it, pot with the view. in which the petitioners seem to have regarded it, but because he thought that Act Would have had the effect of affording bread to the consumer at a cheaper 'rate. It was with that view that he believed the Act I , in question to have been passed, and not for the pot ' purpose of bolstering up the paper-money system.— With respect to the motion of which he had given notice, whatever difference of opinion there might be on other subjects between himself and the Noble Lord opposite, Me hoped that upon that question at least they would cordially agree. Mr. LYTTLETON presented a petition from certain Freeholdirs and other inhabitants of Tedbury praying for Reform and annual Parliaments. He thought it necessary to state, that the petition was not very numerously signed, but that it was in re spectful language. The Petition was brought up, read, and ordered to lie on the table. Mr. BROUGHAM rose to present a petition from a most respectable body of the inhabitants of the Ward of Castle Baynard, in the City of London. It, prayed for a moderate Reform, and triennial Parlia. meets, and expressed a strong disapprobation eV the violent conduct of soon* professed friends to Reform, and expressed a confident hope that Parliament would not be influenced by such proceedings, bet would proceed steadily in its own path. The petition was couched in moderate and respectful language. It was brought up, read, and ordered to lie on the table. RILVEN UR 01111C21U1 IN IRELAND. Mr. BROUGHAM wished to know from the Right Hon. the Secretary for Ireland, whether it was' the intention of the Treasury of Ireland, to allow the Collector of the Customs at Newry, who bad held that office for six years, to retire on a salary of £5OO a year ; his predecessor having retired on a salary of £1 50 a year ? Mr. PEEL.—If any diary was to be allowed to the individual mentioned by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman on retiring, it would be at a raw conformable to the Act of Parliament on that sub. jest. The Honourable .nd Learned Gentleman must be aware that there were certain conditions specified in the Act relating to' the pay ot Reve nue Officers retiring from the service, with must be fully complied with; so that on an Officer's produ cing a certificate of his having served a certain num ber of years he was entitled to a certain salary, and there was no discretion vested in the Treasury to allow him to continue longer. He did not know what were the claims of the individual mentioned by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman ; that indi vidual might be a person who bad risen from one of the lowest situations, and passed with much credit through all the intermediate steps to the office men tioned, and therefore it might be considered that he could come within the Meaning of the Act, as to she length of time he had been in the service, though not as to the time he had filled that situation in particu lar. Of this he was attain, that nothing had yet been done by the Treasury as to the retirement of that Officer; but he was not at present able to give any further information; in answer to the question put by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman. When any thing was done' in tke matter, he would have no objection to give any explanation on the subject which might be required. It did now occur to his recollec tion, that he had heard of a memorial having been presented to the Treasury from the person alluded to, the prayer ot which bad not been granted. Mr. BROUG H AM—t t all was rigfit with respect to the matter in question, the Right Honourable Gentleman might have been contented simply to an swer his question, without entail.; into so long an explanation about the Act of Parliament ; because, it °tithing was intended biit what was strictly within the Act, there could not be much room for expla nation. Mr. PEEL—There was no case of any retirement on the Superannuation Act contrary to its stipula tions t although there might be some cases in which the retirement was glowed, in consideration of ex traordinary 'circumstances, without requiring the certificate for the exact number of years. • Mr. SET ferZGERIM.D remade& that any thing stone itontrary 'to the stipulations of the Act, would, Gramm, be invalid, so that the Ho nourable and Learned Gentleman needed be under no unessiness. CONVICTS UNDIR tENTILKCE OP DEATII. Mr. BENNEFT stated, that he had -last year called the attention of the House to the state of the convicts under sentence of death in Newgate. On that occasion he had had to complain of the delay which took place between passing sentence on these unfortunate persons, said subsequently reporting their cases to the Prince Regent. On a late visit to Ne.v. gate he taw in the condemned cells (fifteen in num ber), which a►e only calculated to hold three each, 73 men and 15 women—(Hear, hear). —Three Ses sions had now passed away without a report of the cases being made to the Prince Regent, and a fourth Session would commence on Wednesday next. delay, so fatal to the effect of public justice, ought to be avoided. The Honourable Gentleman ani madverted upon the tardiness in some parts of the administration of justice, except where political feel ings prevailed, and expressed his astonisbnient that the Lord Chancellor had not executed hit duty in this respect, by speedily laying before the Pa ince Re gent the cases is! those unfortunate perstins 7 The great object of punishment was the diffusion of ex ample; and haw was it to be produced in this plan ner ? Possibly out one out of the thousands who took a cruel delight in attending the spectacle of execu tions, knew the crime which the sufferer was expiating with his life. No wonder then that the example of executions had wholly failed, and that they became nothing else than the pastime of the idle and the dis solute. He hoped some satisfactory reason would be assigned for the continuance of the delay to which he had alluded, and of which he had complained early in the last year. The Honourable Gentleman concluded by moving— .. For a Return of the number of Persons now under sentence of death in Newtate, speeifyingthe crimes of whkh they were convicted, and the nspective dates of their convictiun.." Lord CASTLk.ItEAGH hoped that he would be excused in observing, that the Honourable Gentle man's object was rather to make his speech than to obtain the information for which he appareitly sought. If his object were information, why not ob tain it by inquiring in the regular shape of uotice of a motion ? He (Lord Castlereagh) could not avoid saying, that he never heard a more inflammatory speech, or one which tended to create a feeling. that the administration of justice was not properly attend ed to, or suitably watched by the highest legal advi ser of the Crown. It was impossible to conceive a charge more unfounded than that which placed a culpable delay at the door of the Noble Lord at the head of the administration of justice. (Rear, hear !) 'there never was a character whose conduct stood more high and unimpeachable in the discharge of his arduous duties. (Hear!) Had the Honourable Member proceeded in hie inquiries (however laudable they may be) in a proper manner, he should have known that no delay was attributable to the* Noble Lord alluded to. Had he even in his observations dealt with that Noble Personage in the qualified way of assumed imputation, instead of direct charge, some sort of consideration might be given to his view of an subject. It was well known that the Report was always made out by the Recorder of London, and then transmitted to the Lord Chancel lor, who could not of course act upon it, until it reached hill according to the usual form. He hoped that when the Honourable Gentleman bad a talli-to tell again, be would precede his. motion by a notice, to enable those whom he addressed tozynacure. the 'necessary information which he sought„Linsteidof idly declaiming with groundless assertions against those at the head of the Administration of the Law., (Hear, hear I) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL could state fibm, his own personal knowledge, the reason why thaJß.e -port was not in a more advanced. itate-ot,prepisa tion. Indeed the very number talked aafr.by the - Hooourable Member, was in itself a full answer to the charge, for it evidently chewed the inapdssibility, without considerable delay,of examining well into the cases of such a number of persona. The business of the Criminal Cuomo had-of late years'accumulated vastly. He (the Attorney-General) remember.cd wfton the Judges CAM to the Old Bailey from Westtninster Hall on Wednesdayi and the whole bowing* was over before Saturday, • while now the Court sat from morning to night for a fortnight together.— The Honourable and Learned Gentleman described the scrupulous attention that was invariably paid to the scrutiny and examination of the cases of convicts under sentence of death. It was not generally known that the Recorder was bound to make the 'fullest in quiry into the character of witnesses, and into every thing relative to the past trials of those under sen tence. In a conversation with the Recorder a few days ago, he (the Attorney-General) heard him ex press his regret that he was unable, from the mass of business before him, to get through with the reports, nearly thus score of which still remained unfinished.' I'ho delay, therefore, was solely attributable to the immense mass of business before the Court. Sir M. W. RIDLEY regretted that his Honoura ble Friend (Mr. Bennett) had cast any imputation upon the Noble Lord at the head of tke Administra tion of the Law, for he was the last man who would be tardy in the discharge of a duty which would some times authorise him to recommend the sufferers to the merciful consideration of the Throne. (Y/ear, hear.) Mr. A BERCROMBY thought that the Honour. able and Learned Gentleman's statement of the great accumulation of business quite sufficient to show the necessity of some regulation in the office alluded to, as well as in the mode of apportioning punishments. Mr. BENNETT replied, and disavowed any in tention of undervaluing the merits or integrity of the Noble Lord at the head of the' Administration of Justice. He could, however, see no reason why the reports of convicts should be allowed thus to fall in arrear to the great injury of the patties themselves, and the total defeat of the great object of punishment. In introducing this motion lie had no apology to make, he did it from a sense of duty, and would never be deterred either by the complaints or censures of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) from doint what he conceived to be his duty to the public.—(Hear,/oar.) The motioo was then agreed to. NAVY ISTIMATI& The House having resolved itself into a Commit. mittee of Supply, Sir GEORGE WARRENDER rose for the per pose of proposing the VOW of Supply for the til'a% the next half year. The number of seamen on establishment this year was 13,000 and 6000 mar; The estimate had been formed after a cArefal rt‘ of each head of the espzaditure. A diminution to considerable amount had been made on the erne, -of-each tn.in. Last year the estimate was-Rtil.s per man per month ; whereas this ye it it way I RG Gs..,per man per month. He th en moved h;s resniotien, " That it i, expedient for the sonic-rot 11 beajesey that 19,M0men be employed in the sta • vice (includ:n-i; et,o44t) marines) fot the six ' =lulls, from 4st January, 1817." Mr. i'IERNEY said that he hoped the estiniat it 3 G 4. per man per month had been formed on recr data, for it had Ilan:wiled in some int M"T when a reduce ion was in 'de in the estimate, that House had been called upon afterwards to vote 37 sum to mike op the arrears. Sir. G. WA It RENDER observd, that the mates had been made on the must minute tion of every item. Mr. TIIL - RNEY, with respect to the making of estimates for the public service, took t hi s nity of saying, that he wished they could be up more expeditiously. The Committee to im q p , into the reduction of officers and salaries, had not been able to do one single stroke of work, un count of the delay in making up the Estimat he had this day received a note, to say that tl ►nittee would not meet till next Wednesd iy, the Estimates could not be reAdy betort that The Resolution was then agreed to. Resolutions were then agreed to, ruing the fol. lowing sums: For Seamen's Wages, 13,000 men, for .4 months ,c2ir For Victualling, for ■ix months For Wear and rear of Skips Fur Ordnance for Sea Service - 253;1 The Report of the Commtttee was ordered to be ceived tamrtiorroW. WAR SALARY OF THE SICF.RTARIES OF TIII ADMIRALTY. As soon as the House resumed— Lord MILTON rose, pursuant to notice, to sub mit a Modell to the House on the increase mad- to the Salaries of the.S P ecretaries of the Admiralty in ,loaaequenee of the War • with Algiers. Diff i•srt persons viewed the same thing in very .;rifcrent lights, and acted very differently in the &two! circus . stances. The subject which he was ab-ut to bring undet the consideration of the House gait a sti;king illustration of this truth. In the view of the Vino! Regent, who 'must have known the state of Cie country, who had expressed in his Speech from :"e Throne his sympathy with its sufferings, it was hi homing under such a pressure of distress and err harassment as required from him the surrender of the fifth part of his income. A Noble Marquis, who had followed this bright example, must have enter tained the same idea of the accumulated distresses of the times, as he evinced the same desire of conttibut ing to their relief. That Noble Lord had surrendered, at the cal of suffering, the welt-earned reward of his father's services; he had given up what the country Thad conferred upon his father for the benefit of Li. 'family, in consideration of his labours and sacrifices. This example so nobly yet, and so laudably followed, had nut been without its influence on °viers, wbo proposed reductions of their income, and offered their contributions for the general relief. But while the Prince Relient, the Noble Marquis, and others, con ceived the country was in such a state of distress, as requited them to surrender what they were plainly entitled to enjoy, to sacrifice to public opinion and public coffering what they had a right to retain, what "was' their-just and admitted income; at that very mo ment., and in tlfrise very circumstances, a Gentlem en in Office had:such. a view of the state of the nation, that be not.only was disposed to make no sacrifices for its relief, but seized the opportunity of ad ding to its burdens, by claiming 411 increase of his salary,—(Hear, hear.)-:—While others were sumo desing their . .rights„ the Secretary to the Admiralty was adding to: his emoluments.—(Hear, hear.)— There•cowld heno better illustration, as he had said, of the different lights in which different individuals view the same things. The Noble Lord went over thoicircunistarices of the events which led to the in crease of the salary.of the Secretaries of the Admi ralty. In the simmer of 1816, in consequence of as Expedition sent to Algiers, this country was declared by the Admiralty in a state of war, and an order was issued to increase the salary of the Secretaries- This was done with a reference to an order in Cow cif of 1800, which, in consideration of the inert: duties of the Secretaries of the Admiralty in time ' war, allowed them an increase of salar3. The dition on which this right to additi , ..nal emolto rested, was a state of war, and the incre4sed ' consequent upon it. Was the country in a st. war during the quarter of last summer, when salary was raised, so as to justify the increase This he (Lord Milton) thought could not be out ; and he would thew that there was no go for believing it. The Order in Couticil repo. ,the war and peace salaries could rot colter:.; such a state of things as the war on which it the increase. Any one who read Lord tamer dispatches would see that the expedition comd called a war. There was no declaration of (a circumstance on Much he did not very much r there were no letters of marque issued, no order capture and Rep isals given—in sheet, there secret of those circumstances which attend and characte a v e —(!fear, /tear).—Lord Earnouth went oul Algiers in the druble capacity of a tiegoct.itor ar naval commander : he had inso ueotois tw t' effect of negociation, or to compel obedielice to nand of satisfaction. Wh.t di.l the Noble Lori in his dispatch conveying an account of his vul and of the success of his negotiation ? He WOK Thtis has a war of two days' existence termir in obtaining all the ohjects anticipated." How then was the war? Only two days.—(l-!ear, --A quarter's salary on the war establishment claimed for a war said to be of two days' dur , by the Commander who conducted it.—(Heard This was something so monstrous, that he cow conceive how the ideit'of, it could enter into the of any man who had any regard to comma(' or any respect for cr-m:non opinion. How wa bte re ret e ay of the Admi ra l t y ? I t was dated fresfr this war made out in the calculation of order given to the Admiralty to fit out Allexpede i hot an expedition might be fitted out while there uu w s. lu 1001 an expedition was sent aliahgl ~; Nair, for 10 en on the tri' marin es , g e itl revi ew K t utign to it e expen s %i 13 9d. e Was L d his firs bt ricz of hi 1 13 sea see eai six lung Tl st .ct on co t . se rr.t. yeas t tel tint th de ite a 121 sol cr the Esti exbutina tip sr taking oppurtu Te be mad vi D in q dnntyc o its on se. d tilts, end II the Coma , because r it day. the fol. £216,0e tl Moo I t 253;teee 1 2000 d to Imre- • Tilt b i c e:F re an c : to nrdtr wi Conn• lc/mated time of • 'he con. °lumens d duties state cf hen this .care .'— ye gro wl g1t14.1 r pia te it tr,..rd rnotit!i's d not Le th rely"), .Jets rt ere e r actrii•i: on::-) wr and A tt y t•e to A (40 aord v • vi•;tot • wrote- 9tv iO r h o rp tent W. dosatica 7r,ltor). • (Ad tic: the hc.'d s era", wa d to of ;he t re nt ti.e her w‘i