Star. — London, England, 1822-05-09 00:00:00

Mr. BROUGHAM tbouglit that it eroold be expe , , dient in the House to support the motion. Its ten- 1 dency would not be to prevent die consideration of the question of relief to the farmer ; and he heartily s upported it, because it went to establish a most essential principle, and one In which all theic pro ceedings ought to be founded—the necessity of a.large reduction of the taxation. If the Resolution were car ried, it might occasion the delay of one day, and tor that delay there would be ample reward. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY observed, if the Howe agreed to the Amendment, such . a pro ceeding would sanction the opinion tbat there ought to be a reduction of taxation to the amount of at least twenty millions—(Cries of Hear, hear, and No, no). And what less would that be than sanctioning the confiscation of much of the property of the country? if that were not the meaning of the motion, he wished Gentlemen would say what it was that they really tlid mean ; but he was sure, after the speech with which the motion was introduced, Ott the country *mild put such construction on the Resolution. The adoption of such a Resolution would have a dan gerous and ittinotts effect. Mr. TIERNEY denied that this motion bad the re volutionary tendency imputed to it by the Noble Mar quis on the other side. It only went to establish a principle; and he thought, if due notice had been given, it would be carried. It was wrong to say that the object of it was to take off twenty millions of taxes, for it em.,. aced no such proposition. He should cer taiuly vote for it; and in doing so, he was not con scious of acting in any respect in opposition to the interest of the public creditor. _ _ Mr. BRIGHT thought that the greatest possible reduction of taxation ought to be effected. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was decidedly of opinion, that the motion involved a ruin ous and revolutionary principle. Mr. PAULET thought that the motion was alto gether of an impracticable nature, if it contemplated a reduction to the amount stated. Mr. BENETT (of Wiltshire) felt himself called upon to support the motion, because he always looked for the greatest relief from the reduction of taxation. Mr. T. WILSON was anxious that taxes should be diminished to the utmost possible extent; but he could not support this motion, because he saw it was brought forward under circumstances that were ruin ous to the interests of the country. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and a division having taken place, the numbers were— Ayes 57 Noes Majority against the Motion —B3 When strangers were re-admitted, the House had resolved itself into the Committee, and Mr. BENETT (Wiltshire) was speaking.—The Act which had restored cash payments had virtually added not only to the taxes, but to the private debts of every individual debtor. He thought it would yet be necessary for them to retrace their steps, or the country could never recover from its present depres sion. It was said that the present Corn Bill had g . .en the Agriculturists a monopoly; but he could never discover that it had benefited the landed inte rest. It indeed prevented the importation of grain fin a time, till the price rose to eighty shillings; but when the ports opened, it subjected the country to an inundation of foreign grain from %.hich it could never recover. Whenever the price of corn should again rise to eighty shillings, besides throwing open the ports, the present Bill would cause foreign corn to the amount of a million of quarters to be thrown on the. country. He therefore contended that a protect- ing duty on foreign corn was necessary; and he could not conceive on what grounds this could be opposed by those who were friendly to a free trade in grain, and who wished its price to be low. What they had to du then was to ascertain the price at which the protec:ing duty could he equitably imposed. To de termine this, it was necessary that they should inquire into the cost of productions in other countries, and act on the best information they could procure on this subject. Mr. Sully, in his evidence, had said corn from the interior of Germany cost 2/.165. the quarter. —:" From Poland," several Members called out.j— Ile was sorry that he had been wrong, but it made no difference to his argument, and he would there fete say from Poland. He had had a calculation furnished, which made the price at which corn could he brought into this country much lower. The price at Memel, in January last, was 335. 10d. This he thought he had a right to take as a very high price. To the authority of Mr. Solly, who was a very re spectable man, but who, as an importer of corn, had an interest in the question, he thought it but fair to oppose an authority of equal respectability—that of a farmer. His informant stated that that might be obtained for 32i. which Mr. Solly believed would cost 565. He should take the price above the medium if he took it at 345. To this, adding for freight and insurance 4s. for landing and warehousing in London 2s. and 15 per cent. for the merchant's profit, the price, including all charges, would amount when it came here to 675. which was exactly the amount paid for it in 1792. Mr. Solly had said nothing about over measure. But another honest man (all the par ties of whom he had occasion to speak were honest men) had explained to him what was meant by over measure. This was the difference between foreign and English measures,which, he understood, did more than cover the freight and insurance. He then went over a series of calculations, shewing the expense at tendant on raising corn in England. It was admit ted by the Hon. Member for Portarlington (Mr. Ricardo), that the British farmer was entitled to pro tection to the amount of those duties which he paid, and which the foreign farmer did not pay. Then he shewed to amount to 11. 10s. Bd. the quarter, and he only proposed to call for a protecting duty of 245. He wal convinced that the people of England could tr.! fed cheaper by the farmer than by the merchant. This was proved by the experiment made for 52 years in the last century, when this country exported corn. During that period corn was cheaper than it had been at any other time. By encouraging the cultivation of the soil, the people would be made more happy and con - if - enable than if they were detached from agricultural pursuits to become manufacturers. The latter cour se might add temporarily to the wealth of the country, b ut w ould not contribute to its perma nent security. There were no Petitions now on the table against protecting the agricultural interest, and he was sure that the Public generally wished that it should be relieved. What he desired was, that that .‘ °. --,., farmers the country. ..He trade established. Its smaimposaVile rile tray at: , AI :t domed to the Anovilsoldess expected to receive the interest 'on the mortgage which. they said they had on the soil and propertLof the country, protection must be affofded. `To thlllkth‘e monied in bgest ought not to object, as while the value of landed • • Fr°Perty was declining, their s hid b ee n i mprov i ng from 20 to 21 per cent. Capital was at present being paid for rent, and property was changin4 hands more rapidly than was generally supposed. fire country might recover, but the period at which this would' take place seemed remote. The dealer in honey would make a good landholder in, time ; and in the meantime, as he would pay the taxes, the country might go on. The farmers were a patient body of men, and suffered much without complaint, but could he expected that they would see themselves almost ruined without making some effort to obtain justice? He most anxiously pressed these things on the consi deration of the House, and announced it to be his in tention: when the proper time arrived, to submit to the House that proposition which he had described *s being, in his judgment, most applicable to the circumstances of the country. Mr. CRIPPS thought the present one of the most interesting questions that had ever been submitted to Parliament. The House, however, had only a choice of evils. He freely admitted that a reduction of taxes would be advantageous to agriculture. But though eight shillings a quarter had been taken off malt, the price of barley had fallen. He wished the import price of corn fixed a little higher than the (Marquis of Londonderry wanted it. If it were fixed at 70s. or 755. it would, in his opinion, be sufficient for all purposes. Everything should be done that could be accomplished to relieve the distress at present pre vailing ; but he hoped that, if Parliament could not do ali that it wished, the Public would be satisfied IA ill its anxiety to do all that it could for the benefit of so many conflicting interests. All they could go to was a prohibition of an inundation of foreign corn except at proper protecting duties. He wished that he could vote for the motion of the Hon. Member for Somersetshire (Sir T. Lethbridge), but it was not in his power. The Chairman (Mr. BROGDEN) suggested that the better way would be to deal with the Resolution and the Amendment seriatim. • MN BAKES did not see any reason why they should deviate from the recommendation of last year's Agricultural Committee, which was, that they should not legislate at all on the subject. The only altera tion that could be made with advantage was a regu lation of the importation of foicign corn. He wished that the landholders should be left under the protec tion of the Act of 1815.• He, therefore, saw no reason why they should not impose a complete prohibition against the importation of foreign corn before the 25th of March next, at which time Parliament could take the subject under its consideration again. This might be done with the less difficulty, as we had in ware house enough of foreign corn for one year's con sumption. He doubted whether our last year's pro. duction was equal to an average crop; but it was said that we were labouring under a superabundant pro duction. This, however, was true as to the foreign corn countries ; but even on that consideration he did not know how to recommend a scale of duties of any kind. The system of averages he thought extremely defective. He denied that it followed that an ex porting country of corn must necessarily be a rich country. There had been a number of plans of relief proposed; but there were few who were satis fied of the efficacy of any one of them—(Heard sear). —Even after the Reports of two Committees, there was such difference of opinion among Members, that he thought the House was in no situation to legislate on this subject, even if it were necessary, which he thought it was not. At the same time, he could not agree to a free trade in corn ; because, if that was granted, were they not liable to be called on for a tree trade in silk, wool, cotton, all sorts of raw mate rials, and manufactures, and that too in foreign bot toms? He did not think .our ancestors were such fools as many Members seemed to think them. Their maxims were not be despised, who had made of a small empire (in point of extent) like this a very large one. He believed that there was no country in Eu. rope where the trade in corn at the present moment was free from restriction. The system of importing corn into this country would make us more and more dependent on foreign nations for subsistence. Look at the period of 1812. In 1800 and 1801 there was such an alarm as to deficiency of crops, that every means were suggested to enable us to extend our growth of corn. It was curious to see how we were now altering our notions, in his opinion, without reason. He ridiculed the idea of recommending the farmer to leave off the cultivation of wheat because he at present found It a losing speculation. So far from wishing that, he should rejoice to see the whole of the country resembling a beautiful garden, rather than see a single acre abandoned from cultivation.- - Would any one say,that we should turn that valuable class of our population, agricultural labourers, into manufacturers? We had too much of a manufac turing population, and nothing he should deplore more than making us still more a manufacturing nation—(Hear, hcar).—Besides, there was a natural reluctance in persons to remove their capital from agriculture, or anything else, that it may have been for a long time employed in. Since the end of the , war, we had been relieved from eighteen millions of taxation; and was it fair then to say, that overbur dening taxation was alone the cause of agricultural distress ? No well-regulated mind could contemplate any reduction of taxation which would at present give substantial agricultural relief. He had recom-' mended a measure of immediate relief in the Com palmy, which he wished to GOD had been adopted there,,end by the House ; and that was, that the Go vernment should come into the market, and purchase ,a certain quantity of corn. He thought ultimately we should be better off, by applying five millions an nually to the extinction of the Public Debt, rather than to the immediate reduction of taxation. The first tbing,we should look to, was the preservation of public credit. H. hoped that no one would succeed in dividing one interc.t of the country from another. House ,to know". that he milt nt to detain them for a very short tigre . Afier . . the • part he hid taken in dtiswing tip df &port Of the Agricultural Committee, of lit year ; be thought it properto abstain from at-i tending the Consignee of this' year. He:wished to !ay no i this% of t h e late Reporwseacept that it, was ai mystification of the Committee on themselves. He wits glad to find that his Noble 'Friend's mind was fall of the necessity of adhering to .the principles ; of the ComMittee oflast year; though'his - Noble Friend wished to extend the restrictions on koportatiOn. .It was because, on question!- of political economy the Rouse should hear every proposition, thaihe had sub . - mitted certain Reoltitilini tothe House; buthe found k *as impossible to do so without calling down ani• mad version froth those who held all political economy to be ridiculous. He should, therefore, not go into any of the practical measures that had been suggested, but leave the House to dispose of the question. Lord ALTHORPE denied that this was an im proper time to legislate on the Corn Laws; but he could not agree that there should be a complete pro hibition on the 'import of foreign corn. The Noble Lord agreed with the Honourable Member for Por tarlington, that it would be most desirable to adopt a system which would give the grower a moderate, steady, remunerating price. Something between 60s. and 70s. would be about a fair price, as he believed, between the grower and the consumer. It had been said, that it would be necessary to guard against the importation of bad foreign corn; but he believed that to be unnecessary, as it would always be the interest of the importer to send that corn which would fetch the best price. Of all the Resolutions before the House, he rather preferred those of his Honourable Friend, the Member for Wilts, who proposed a ditty of 21s. Now he considesed '2os. as sufficient, but he would not object to 4.5. more. He was clearly of opinion that taxation was the great source of agri cultural distress. A reduction of taxes would, he was persuaded, give great relief. As to raising the price of corn, he was persuaded it could not be done. Let us look to the situation of Monmouthshire and StafforAshire, and then say whether the state of the labourers in those counties was such as would permit of any advance of price in the necessaries of life, at least of any such advance as would benefit the grower? Mr. GOOCH, adverting to the Report of last year, observed, that, although it was drawn up with much talent, yet it was rather calculated to mystify than inform those for whose information it was intended. He deprecated all party spirit in this discussion ; and was, on that account, extremely sorry to hear the speech of an Hon. Baronet last night. He also re gretted very much that the first Resolution should have been given up. He was convinced many indi viduals had looked forward to a loan from Govern ment for relief; and if the relief thus afforded had not been permanent, by it the depression of the markets would, for a time at least, have been relieved. If all other trades were unrestricted and open, then he was of opinion the corn trade should be open alto, but not otherwise. As a protection, he thought the ports should not be open under 655. and a duty should be imposed-of 15s. instead of 12s. Such a re gulation would, he conceived, give a fair and equita ble protection to the grower. Sir T. LETHBRIDGE briefly replied to some of the arguments brought forward against his proposi tion. He contended, that if the trade was to be pro tected at all, the duties he had proposed were ne cessary : a free trade altogether would be preferable to adopting any lower duties; and it would be for the House to discuss whether this was a period at which the system of a free trade could be adopted.— If the House stopt short of giving the country imme diate relief, they would stop short of what the People expected from them. His Resolutions, he contended, were calculated to give that immediate relief. Much had been said of going back to the standard of 1792; but such a thing was impossible if Gentlemen would consider that the taxes had been more than doubled since that time. Mr. N. CALVERT was one of those who did not quarrel with the law as it now stood, which would operate to keep foreign corn out of the market for some time to come, and yet would induce persons on the Continent to keep a stock by them, to supply us in case of emergency. It was important that the landed interest should have a remunerating price, but he was not partial to any of the remedies proposed. s 448 eattr ill ihu the te c d uVren the c d y i an stres d excessive taxation. agriculturists to taxation. Mr. SAOIJrGH/5 , 1~ call of edioti f=-.. ri zse .si j a d r at i b a s to ogd., 4. dtia... general , !louse *rig; ikhotll# lode, in, the t orn laiw.7 4.1040*.t„-f*lrT l‘feingici - who Ida "s en Lai the subject ..iclumff64 tltaigr i ne atitin . was necessary, and ill ti • fie at Nagy . 4 • . principle cO b e than he present princi the torn LiW: 'To. provide a'remedy kho t 4) adoptitiipbrtatlen prices and an average. - The ,sittq r tion then was, which of the fleioltitiOnspLoponscred - would be most advant ageous ? The NAle-Lballici proposed the importatipn price and protectiiit duOes. His Hon. Friend, the MeintierfOrTartarlingtou, bad proposed a plan - fitefroth objection. His Man .was gradual, and in pridcipli he saw 'its) objectiOntoje j ; but he thought the scale of perMinent duty was much too low. The principles of the Members for Wiltshire and Somersetshire were the same. .flut, were it not for the particular circumstances of thii country, he should be for a free trade altogether.-- He thought the . Member for Somersetshire had treated with some acrimony the unhappy political economists ; but he should recollect that they Were all political economists, though they belonged to different schools. His objection to the plan of the Honourable Member for Bunersetshire, was, prir.- cipally, that it amounted •to an exclusion. But it should be borne in mind, that eighty shillings now, were equal to 100 s. some time since. It was said, however, that the agriculturist was burthehed by Poor-rates and tithes. He admitted that they were great •burthens ; but Hon. Gentlemen forgot how indirect taxation pressed upon all. He (Mr. Brougham), for one, thought that at least much of our distress was attributable to taxation ; and that we should be worse than folly-stricken if we did not direct our attention to it. The proper object for con sideration was, cure for the present, rather than pre vention against a future disease. It was better, he admitted, to legislate on the subject while we were at low prices ; but he protested against this, his tem porary admission, being drawn into an argument that he approved of the general principle. Let us reduce taxation, and relieve agriculture as much as we can; . and then, and not till then, would it be the bounden duty of the House to consider of that which had been called by many a Sinking Fund, and which they still called a Sinking Fund for the sake of their own cha racters. He concluded by saying, that under the cir cumstances he should support the proposition of the lion. Member for Portarlington. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY admitted the right of the Hon. and Learned Member to reserve his opinion on the general question. He (the Marquis) only begged in return the right of contending here after that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was in error, in believing that the reduction of taxation would be productive of any great relief to the agri culturist. Such a reduction might relieve him as a grower 9 rower • but not as a consumer. With regar d to t h e in observations of Isis Hon. Friend, the Member for Colic Castle, lie really thought his Hon. Friend would, on reflection, see that he was rather advancing than opposing the recommendation of the Committee of last year. The subject had been discussed in the House with calmness; and he had no doubt the People of the country looked with confidence co the decision of the House. He could not agree in any respect with the proposition of the Hon. Member for Somersetshire : and he thought that Hon. Member would himself admit that his proposition was against the general opinion of the Agricultural Committer. His (the Marquis's) object was to assist the agricul tural interest, consistent with the duty which they owe.i to the country at large; but he deprecated the passing of any measure which, from its partial cha , ratter, would have the effect of exciting jealouty among the other classes, and ultimately work an in jury to the agriculturists themselves. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Committee divided, when there appeared Fur Sir Thomas Lethbridge's Motion Against it 24 245 -219 T7l! ?'1 protection shomild, • th! far? afforded to the rs of th should be 'err hakei!eote freie but under existiv circusisiteaces this If the monied intereertood Gad a themselves by means Odi f Iriptpe * them have it, and let alliwotit4ol landed interest; but while the•iondh . , . . .- . • , a • • ' . . . . . •• • - „ . . . . ' S which sass' Let n° Polisialtiste Weft, ust* 11&, —X'. lir Iff , satAtZlitlialso.friaaing tairotriaj )untry . _He I We l trere Mkt did bbnifte a stiat4" mew Wleitori- dWe. -- IfiFii - oite aims • _opened when the to much iota poured in as would oppress the agriciti- am bu s h e d. nectekbut wearywhen disunited. ` 4 . was tioaiyitsbosit ad y import duty, there mists bee? 1 inipossible. Mr. HUSIERMOtt said, that after a speech der- turists for years after-(H eed yef paling treme la** aid embracing the greatest variety a ilz then.ket contradictlWY , Vialoa, it might be some relief to the Mr. GRIFFITHS attrihmed • the x.t..... ..1' *L. • Majority . Strangers were not re-admitted, bnt it was understood that considerable discussion afterwards took place in the Committee, and several questions were proposed and negatived. The Reso lutions of Mr. Exuarr, it is said, were negatived without a di vision ; that Mr. RICARDO consented to waive the preliminary Resolutions in his Set; and that the three last were tacked to those of Mr. HUSRIZSON, and proposed to the Committee. Lord Alamos's proposed an amendment; but It was at length agreed that the Chairman should report progress, and ask leave to - At again to-morrow (this day). The House adjourned at Two o'CLocw. LIST OF THE MINORITY OT SII/RTY-SICIZN WHO TOT= rea 3ia. WTVILL'S MOTION, Mr. IRVING rose, but was inaudible for some moments. Though the Resolutions on the table dif fered in a great measure from those which he had proposed in the Committee, still he would not leave the Noble Marquis in the lurch—(A laugh).—To the Noble Marquis he would leave the task of reconciling the presumed inconsistencies of those Resolutions; and he would contend that, had the first Resolution been submitted to the House without the alterations and garbling of the Noble Marquis, it would have been received with much more approbation than that which the Noble Marquis inconsiderately called upon him (Mr. Irving) to support. There was nothing absurd in the plan, as he proposed it. It was the Noble Lord who made it absurd, by making it a patchwork, and pinning his own plans to it—(A laugh). Let him now defend its objectionable parts, for they belonged to him. For his share of it, he would still contend that, though not strictly conformable to the rigid rules of political economy, yet it would meet the present difficulty. As, however, the House thought differently, and abused his plan because it was in bad company, he thought it due to himself to go into a Yesterday the long-contested question between St. Andrew's history of that plan—(Loud cries of , g No, no," from Parish and naive's Inn, on the liability of the latter to pay ;oar' Rates, A came on at Guildhall, before Aldermen Woon and all parts of Me House). --They would, at least, allowv t r h . e DO Ch t. u v i n c u h s, for the Parish, said, that'it was!' him to say that he was not responsible for the plan, maxim lig tha ig ; should not pay to the Lisureh ; ' for it emanated from the Committee—(A laugh).— and Mr. J. 'naive having in the time of Edward 111. devised Of all the plans proposed, notwithstanding, he thought the scite in question to 'maintain jur erer a Chaplain to prayfor kis the Noble Marquis soul, and that of sir tole, it might at that time be respected as an 's best entitled to his support. ecclesiastical endowment ; but Thaives Inn had long since passed Sir N. COLTHURST professed himself a fi iencf litto.liy bandit, and it bad been decided that (hut circumstanced, to protecting duties, but he thought other articlesUf it was assessable; especially as the Parish wesetiro i d to ago agricultural. produce were equally entitled to them pon e •th h e t i t t a oo t rof this stbotlnwans. surrounded•allr sax conten d s . by w the'Parish ; ' die t q w u lls est n itn t • as corn ; for instance, butter —( 4 loud laugh).—The • was, g if it was a p i rrt of it; as the absence of positive proof, laughter of Gentlemen could not remove the iM- the rate could not be supported. Atter some consultation with presSiOn from his mind; and he wished, therefore, the City &Mita'', the Jlagutrates expressed . themselves ofdpu pow to ay, that, either iii this Coloolitote or at some , nics..... i allot to pay Poore Rowe, and grained., war oarlthel-Wingio,,t o ne of the lahabitante, which will .tah • other time,. he would propose a Resolution in onion to : TT / quilmita, ii ntig the 'Court of King's Bench, Where is vrtirh: , extend thiMe.diltiei. . . .. .•.. - : .yr iekne *elf asignite expresseele—'---- ---- - ___ _ • • " That it is the opinion of this House, that the best and most effectual relief that can be given to the Agricultural Intereet is a large remission of Taxation." Allen, J. H. Denman, Thomas Power, R. Barrett, S. B. M. Dundas, Hon. T. Powlett, lion. W. Brougham, Henry Fitzroy, Lord C. Palm e r, C. Fy sc h e Blake, Sir F . : Ferguson'', Sir R. C. Sykes, D. Beaumont, T. W. Guise, Sir W. Sebrig h t, Sir John Birch, J. Griffit hs, J. W. Tierney, Right lion. Bright, If. Graham, Sandford G. lienett, J. Homby, Edmund Williams, John Bernal, Ralph Heron, Sir It. Webbe, Colonel Coffin, Sir Isaac Hume, Joseph Western, C. C. Creevey, T. Lennard, T. B. - 7 Chaloner, Robert Maule, Hon. W. R. TELLERS. Curwen, J. C. Monck, J. B. Wilson, Sir Robert DeCrespigny, Sir W. Phillips, G. Wyvill, M. Mr. R. H. Gurney paired off in favour of the motion. i ~I • r' I! ~ 0 " ; I • ''V