Star. — London, England, 1831-03-10 00:00:00

~~ ~,~ ;, agroast. 4. ' R •• ked IMPERIAL r" "?. L HOUSR OF LORDS, 31Ancti 9. The LORD CIIANCP.LI.OII tonic hi. peat on the *dolga& * fee o'clock, and the Earl cf SHAFTESBURY forwarded the bile on the table. The Marine Mutiny bill was read the 6etond time. The Report of the Committee on Lord Wynford's bill, to prevent r?4,ld, rue creditors. was sec ivcd —Third reading to-morrow. The Watling-street Improvement bill was read a third time. The Richmond Lonatic Asylum hill passed through a Committee. The Earl of RADNOR presented a petition from the inhabitant's of Manning, in Yorkshire, praying for Parliamentary Reform. Sir A. GRANT. and other Members from the Commons, brought up the Army Mutiny bill, and two private bins, which were read the first time. Mr. Tomlins, front the Treasury, presented a return of the quantity of foreign wool imported within given data. The anneal Report of the Commissioners of Shoreham Harbour was presented at the bar, and laid upon the table of the house. Their Lordships adjourned at half-past five till to-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. LEG!! KECK brought up thereport of the Dover Election Committee. The sitting members were declared duly elected. Lord EASTNOR brought up the report of the Stockbridge Election • '..tuilitt , ee., to the same effect. Mr. PHI I.LPOTTS presented a petition from Gloucester, in sup. port of the present measure of Reform. Mr. H. HUGH RS presented a petition from the Ladies of Etyde. Isle of Wight, for the abolition of Negro Slavery. The hon. member moved that the petition be printed. Mr. S. RICE opposed the motion, on the ground of economy. After a short conversation between Mr. LITTLETON, Mr. DUN. comae, Mr. EVANS, Mr. HART DAVIS, and Sir JOHN NEWPORT, Ole lions/ divided— Ayes ... IS Noes ... .. 47 Majority against ptinting the petition ... 31 Mr. IiODGES presented petitions from Ilythe, Folkston, and Gravesend, in favour of the plan of reform proposed by ministers. Mr. HUNT presented a petition from Stockport, complaining of dis. tress. and praying for reform of Parliament, annual Parliaments, uni versal suffrage, end vote by ballot. He was hound to say. that though he sti ll maintained his opinions on those ,pointa, all those who formerly acted with him were perfectly saddled with the plan of reform proposed by his 31ajesty's ministers. He never saw such an accumulation of public opinion in favour of any measure ; the country were, in fact, Tanning wild for it, Toe inhabitants of Stockport, 'since that plan was proposed, met again.' and agreed on a petition in favour of that plan of Reran!), which they had sent him to present. The Honourable Gentleman presented the petition, and a similar petition from Lam. teeth ; and a peti.ion from two parishes in Kilkenny. for the abolition of tithes and the repeal of the Union. He supposed from what was said by the Learned Member for Waterford last night, that the repeal of the Union weuld, at least, be suspended to give place to the great measure of Reform. O'CONNELL said he Kupported one measure without any re. terence to the other. Mr. BENET presented a petition from Caine, in favour of the plan of reform proposed by ministers. The petition was signed by every member of the corporation. The hon. gentleman presented a similar petition from Devizes. Lord GEORGE LENNOX presented a similar petition from Chichester. Mr. K E3IP said he had presented a petition from Lewes for reform, including short parliaments, extensive suffrage, and vote by ballot : but since the plan proposed by ministers had become known, they had writ ten to him, declaring their perfect acquiescence in that plan, and de siring him to support it. Mr. J. SMITH said the whole country were unanimous in favour of the plan of reform proposed by ministers. Sir H. PARNEILL presented four petitions from parishes in Ireland for the abolition of slavery. Mr. LEFROY presented eleven petitions from parishes in Ireland, against slavery. Captain BOUVERIE presented a petition from Salisbury, in favour of the plan of reform proposed by ministers. AU the corporation agreed in the measure. Mr. BENET supported the petition, and said the corporation of Salisbury always returned independent members to parliament. Mr. HUNT said the Corporation of Salisbury had returned mem. berm like other corporations; but now, like all other Corporations, they were declaring themselves In favour of the plan proposed by Ministers. Col. TRENCH said language was used at public meetings, tending to excite the people against that house. At a parish meeting in the city of London, a Mr. Hill said there was in the House of Commons an audacious opposition, who appeared to be determined to resist reform till it came in the shape of revolution ; and Mr. Tooke, a solicitor, said the ministers should have the voices of the people, and, if necessary, their arms, n support of the plan of reform. He thought these threats should unite every Englishman in a determination to resist menace, and decide the question according to reason. He did not wish to make any motion on the subject, but would leave it to members to do their duty (Hear.) Mr. LITTLETON said he deprecated all violence ' • those who threatened it .were the greatest opposers of the measure, and must in jure it ; at the same time he thought the opponents of the measure should be more guarded in their language, and not call the plan proposed revolutionary. (Hear, hear, hear.) On the part of his constituents, he must deny it. No measure had ever been more uni versally approved by them, and they were fat from having any revolu tionary designs. ( H ear.) Sir GEORGE CLERK said he must regard the measure, as changing the Constitution, and in that way effecting a revolution.-- ( Hear, hear.) Mr. BEAU MONT thought the measure was calculated to prevent revolution. (Hear, hear.) Mr. KENNEDY said, that according to all the information he could collect, the whole of Scotland opposed the proprosed bill. Mr. LITTLETON remarked, that in the last conversation he had with Mr. Huskissoa, that gentleman had said, that the whole of the representation of Scotland must be changed. Had Mr. H. been alive, he doubted not that he would have supported the measure. Sir C. WETHERELL declared, he was confident, had Mr. Can ning and Mr. Huskisson been alive, they would not have supported this jacobinical hill. (Cheers and laughter.) Petitition ordered to be printed. Mr. W. WYNN brought up a return of the half-pa; officers in the army. The Order of the Day having been moved for the rexuntntion of the Debate, _ _ Lord A ',THORP expressed the hope that the debate might be closed this evening, even if the House sat to a later hour. Mr. PERCEV AL said he had pledged himself to give the present bill his most determined opposition. He had not a shadow of doubt on his mind that the moment tbis bill should pass the death-blow was given to the monarchy of England. (Hear.) Hi would not object to the bill being brought in, but all friends of the Constitution were called on to disabuse the public mind on this subject. lie was aware there must be prejudices against him as the son of a Tory minister —the holder of a sinecure place—and the representative of a rotten borough. He wail! endeavour to remove that prejudice, even though it com. pelled him to speak of himself. iVhen he attained his age, he nein. rally desired a seat in that house. He could have felt no difficulty in obtaining a seat from his lajesty'e ministers ; but he shrunk from coming in bound into Parliament. and obta;ned a seat which left him free to act as he pleased ; and the first and second time he spoke in that house was in opposition to ministers. He came into the house with the ittention of discharging his duty faithfully; and though as the son of a Tory minister, he was naturally disposed to support the dignity of the crown, he was equally well disposed to maintain the liberties of the people ; and when a motion was made for a reform in Parliament in though nor able to support it, he left the house to avoid voting against it. He was. however, determined to oppose, to the utmost of his power, the detestable measure now before the house. There were two other prejudices which he must remove. The Secretary for Ireland said the people were demanding their constitutional rights, and they could not be constitutionally refused; and the Lord Advocate for Scotland had said, those whose seats were to he affected by the mea sure had no right to vote on this question. He gave the lie to these uneonstitu.ional doctrines, and dared any man in the house to rise up to defend them. He felt for the Members who made them the greatest personal respect ; but be would not spare the term that ought to he used on the occasion. The Secretary for Ireland charged the opposers of the measure with calling it revolutionary, and with cheer ing the ezpression ; and the Hon. Member for Preston had talked of the horrid yells of the hydra of corruption. in the agonies of death. He believes be was one of the loudest barkers on the occasion, and lie would be ashamed if be cheered without being able to defend the expression. It was allowed that carrying the measure by force would be revolutionary-and it was the next stage to force when it was carried under the menace of force, by the language used by the press and at pubic meetings. (Hear.) He knew the Kate of men's hearts on this question ; he saw their countenances cast darn when he met them in the street.—(A laugh) The tone of its supporter, was a little changed of bee, but to 4 at the language that was used by that vile and profligate thing, the pass of England.—( Laughter and cheer.) We were the slaves of that worthless and vile thing. and hundreds' admitted it in private that would nut own it in publie.—( Hear.) 1 In his conscience he considered measure revolutionary. He would read what the Ilf ' tilionlate, a paper written with great abLity, said of tile Ip of Grey, when he said he vain The gentleman then realt.e's i l lktti b Zi, h rlentalia in glz bf Commons was iflefetilled orninA trape with , lame Hoot a not stand." (Hose, hear.) A oar it 1 " ',Attila by 4 man of gregiftleit, , „ Id a s ew w i fic " ' Mould deprive tireft* en the* power hfid uSk and whelk' be mote to the area* ftist people—why should there be one law for the lord and anothei few the labourer 7 If we thought the reform would leave the law of niture unrepealed, we should alunist %lie hitdvoeuy." (C= He would ask if the Neuss of ConThrobb %Minot fora length of ' t showed the most tender tetteld for vested rightb *; and he would irk them to consider how much of the permanency d their institution might have resulted from that scrupulous regard to vested rights, and I was not sweeping awax , rislits of that character in the manner p ro p ose d Yi 'ffiTit bill a reroltitlimary ineilivii P (Wei; ECU.) The kite of so ciety was based on the surrender of natural rights into the hands of con-1 'dinned authorities, to be vied for the giublicioed, and they had no right to resume them at their own pleasure against the will of those au thorities. He had listened with great attention to the speech of the Lord Advocate, who dealt almost wholly in generals. He said, how ever, that we were at the head of freedom in Europe, even when we had the star chamber and ship-money. if the statement of the noble lord, " that at the time or the Tudors and Stuarts, and at the present day, we were at the head of Europe." what a weight of testimony did he bring to that constitution of King, Lords, and Commons, thst it had preserved the country in this preeminent sta tion. (Hear. hear, hear.) He knew for a time it was laid smack smooth, and a republic established in its place, but such was its power that it rose again in all its former proportions, and strength and beauty. It had since undergone another revolution without a single pillar of the edifice being removed, yet this was she Constitution which the insa nity of his Majesty's Ministers was about to destroy. One of the first things that made an impression on his mind waste passage in a speech of Mr. Wyndham, in which he said the reformers had not proved the evil, nor stated th eir remedy. He had examined the speeches of the reformers, and found them all' deficient on those points. It was ad mitted there were rotten boroughs, but it was not proved that they were an evil. The learned member for Caine had said that he would ahew a stranger the real grievance of England, by chewing him all the palaces north of Oxford -street, and telling him all the inhabitants of those palaces:did not send members to parliament. He believed if the young Anacbarisis were to turn round on the learned gentleman, and ask him where was the grievance, the learned gentleman would be puzzled for a reply. The parish of 3lary-le-bone, by the way, had probably more members of parliament and more electors in it than any other pa. rish in England. It was contemptible nonsense to call their not send ing members to parliament fur Alary-le-bone a grievance. The alleged grievances were unrepresented west districts and towns, and rotten boroughs. (Hear, hear.) It was said the rotten boroughs could not be defended by reason. We lived in an age when nothing could stand that could not be defended by reason. and therefore rotten boroughs must be got rid of. He thought he could give a reason for their continuance. They were part of a whole which operated well, and no human foresight could tell what would be the effect on that whole if the part were taken away. Suppose she structure of the human eye was only now discovered, and the discovery was made in a living subject; and one of the new light doctors seeing tne inverted pie tore on the retina, said it was an anomaly to see the picture topsy-turvy, and out it must come. (Laughter.) He was prepared to defend the rotten boroughs as a main cause of the extraordinary expansive power of the Constitution, by which it adapted itself to all changes in the circumstances of the mounds, affording the means of every class and in ters* finding representatives in that house. The rotten boroughs were of two kinds—those independent of all controul, and those called nomi nation boroughs. It was said they brought bad and unworthy members into that house—he did not believe it. He came first into Parliament for a borough without controul, which allowed hint to give, on all occa sions, an unbiassed vote. The nomination boroughs were represented by honourable men, who agreed with the patron in political opinion.— The next grievance was the wand of representation in the large towns, and that he would confess to be a real grievance, which ought to be re. medied. Another existing evil was bribery, for which the Bill did not offer a shadow of a remedy. Bacon said statesmen should reform like time, that was the most gradual reformer ; but the present Bill was rash and violent. Bacon also said refotm should be made because it was necessary, and not from desire or demand for change. The contrary was the case in the present bill. The ministers found a cry for reform, and set their heads together to form a plan to answer it. The bill would give a great representation to the north by taking it away from the south, which he considered an experiment of great danger. The great argu ment for the bill was an appeal to the fears of the house. They were told that the people were determined not to brook its rejection ; an ar gument which he knew bad too much weight with many. He thought the conduct of the Secretary at War and the member for Milbourne Port ought to be an example to such persons they ought to emulate such noble conduct. His first answer to the argument of fear was, that he did not believe there would be any conflict, and while the con. etitution was preserved he did not fear the suit; but be the conse quence what it might be would fall in a just cause rather than submit to a base fear. He believed that three honest men who bad the fear of Gorr, and not the fear of the prate, before their eyes, and would do their duty by bringing the offences of that press before the house— would restore the house to the character it ought to have in try ; but they suffered that press to utter its calumnies againstthe coon• them from day to day, and were cowards before it. lie thanked his GOD... who had given him the opportunity of delivering his sentiments fear lessly and undismayed, and he felt grateful to the house for the honour they had done him. Mr. D. W. HARVEY said be experienced some difficulty in en tering on the question, as so many hon. members had got up professing to intrude upon the house for only a short time, but they had not ob. served their pinnies. He would detain the house only a few minutes, for it was now scarcely possible to advance a topic on the measure that was worthy daunting the attention of the house. He, besides, had some difficulty in approaching the measure immediately after the honourable member who had just sat down—(hear, hear, hear,)— aedsithe opportunity that he had enjoyed, his late father having so long held a pre-eminent situation in the affairs of this country, anti that the talents of the hon. member who had just sat down had at an early age been rewarded by the country. (Hear, hear, at intervals by single voices.) He (Mr. Harvey) could unders tand the meaning of those cries of " hear," from bon. gentlemen whose situations were consistent with the renour of the remarks. It was the abusing of the public trust in that way that had caused the discontent of the people, led that had called for this measure, and the people had not • fair Wild at the bar of that house. (Hear.) Had hon. members been placed in the same situation as the public peas, that some hon. mem bers had indulged in vilifying—the libels that they had delivered on the people, would have ailed forth the vigilant attention of the official authorities. Hs was astonished that the hon. member, who had just at down, Mho, with all the solemnity of manner and sanctity of re ligiou that he professed, should have indulged 'in such denunciations of the measure, but he (Mr. Harvey) would meet him, and such mem bers on their own ground; those who had contended that the mea. sure was a revolutionary measure. He would admit that it was a revolutionary measure—that it was • glorious revolution. (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) But what did that revolution mean—it was a returning of the Constitution to its original institutions r and the time was now come that that revolution could not long be resisted. The speech of the hon. member who had just sat down had been given as a proclamation to resist the messure--he had said, that he would go forth with the banner and enlist all the representatives for the rotten boroughs, and they were so many of them, that lie had no fear of the issue of the conflict. ( A laugh.) This was tile very evil of the system. The Opposition had all contended that it was ott i l i wough bribery and corruption nut men of genital could enter this 9e; but if, the effects of this bill would exclude every member who held his seat from a rotten borough, or by the nomination of a patton, he (Mr. Harvey) was very well con. vinced that the business of that House would not be marred in any way, nor would the prosperity of the country suffer injury. He could easily understand that some honourable members trembled for their situations by the proposed measure—it was to wipe away 168 members, but it was to give the franchise to 56 other towns. He would reserve his power melamine the detail of the measure till a future opportunity; bur he would now merely remark, for the consolation of the bonnigh mongers, many of whom he knew only wished a mover and a seconder at an election, that out of these fifty-six towns there were forty-Reim that would not have more than 280 voters qualified by being rated at 101. per annum. The Honourable Member defended himself ijminst some attacks that had been made upon him, and denied 'that he had ever professed republican notions, for he had always spoken egainst vote by ballot and universal suffrage, as being subversive of monarchy, and which must inevitably lead to republicanism. He denied that the measure would overthrow the Constitution, but that, on the con trary, it would tend to cement the different mates, and make the people have confidence in their representatives. (Hear.) After no ticing several of the objections that had been started by the Opposition, which he designated as libels, he said that he considered that one main' obstacle to the bill was, that it had embraced no promise for compensa tion ; and he had no doubt but that if ministers had placed a box at the Treasury for the reception of anonymous letters, that they might easily have obtained possession of many of these boroughs tor hand some sums, and then a great portion of this vulgar prejudice that per vaded the Opposition would have been exploded. (Hear, hear.) He was no enemy to compensation; (Hear) but before be would give those members compensation, he would ask them what benefits they had de rived from their boroughs, if they had not brothers or eons who had been made Masten in Chancery and Conker Barons, and had other situa dons given them, solely because that they, the borough holders, had seats in that house. (Cries of No, no.) Many had been named to pea. 1 Floes and offices because they had found their way into th at h ouse by 1 means Of the boroughs . What other reason could be given ? Let them be cosepeneation, he said, and it would be in favour of the country.— There was but one fading throughout the country with to the proposed measure. His constituents. some of whom wo r ':l g g e b t : among 1 , the disfranchised, had commanleated to him their cordial concurrence. He was confident that if the measure should be lost. and an appeal made to the people, they would answer that appeal with a unanimous voice. If they did not, if they could vote ter an anti-reformer, they Arlin z d would deserve the evils that had so lift lip dfigek He did not agree in all the details of the plilli ilit . re gene rally he was most ul .to Govprnmetk. ._ . by a revolu- Chleh.effected through attend ittenta, NOV lie spirit of the thici)ltution. (Hear.) ~ _ lIP , GOULBURN rVilled thi atiikk mat e On ,his honourable taiivitfatuse he was a beeffirgh lipapritrud i ' I 1161der of a sinecure Olken If there was alnY ant in Ilialth to o esaileilitain upon r lit Wrier, assuredly it was in that %If b ' honourable Mend. (Hear, beilt The office should_ be he hint a source of exultation es the re. ward ) of a grateful country for th e mervlceset a father, who had fallen, slit enelephorieally Spatter, bet in sad teldlty, a victim to his patri otic efferts in the Very threshold of that Wee. He remembered well the feeffng which pervaded the house on that melancholy occasion, that ft should mark its sense of the services, and above all of the disinterest. edness of the lamented statesman, cut off without baying provided for ally 'of Wei fiddly. Mid It 'MAWR Ai Ara *MA ?Aid At 6:killegnence bete bestowed, that the, son was to be scouted as 4 pensioner, and one incompetent to partake in the present debate. (Bear.) He had said thus much in consideration of the affection which had existed between him and the father of his honourable Mend. Before entering on the debate, he should make two preliminary observations not directly con. netted with the subject. He proceeded to refute a statement of the Attorney-General on a former evening, that the transfer of stock duties was legal, and a charge made by the Secretary at War against the former administration, of being attached to patronage. To come to the question of reform—he did not deny the right of Parliament to interfere with the elective franchise -- He considered parliament omnipotent, but he denied the expediency of the proposed interference. The country, it was admitted on all eider, had prospered for centuries. The hon. member for Waterford bad said that it had thriven, in ;spite of its institutions. He could not agree in the monstrous proposition: * well might it 1:e said that the earth was fertile, in spite of the sun and the seasons. A e said it had been asked, but it had not been answered, how, the goiernment of the country was to be carried on, after these boroughs were cut off—boroughs that lied afforded the opportunity to the most eloquent and talented men to get into parliament ? The peculiarities of the constitution had grown ep with the wants of the people, and he might appal to all by-gone admi nistrations to the fact, that they could not have pros whiten the aids of the boroughs to bring in numbers to carry on the crown's af fairs. (Hear, bear.) In answer, he had been told by some that no. thing would be so easy is to make such an arrangement, as would secure seats for the ministers. That might be a pant of the ulterior plans ; if it were so, the fact ought to be stated—if it were not, he thought some provision ought to be made for the possible exclusion of the ministers. In the re-construction of the house, such • case ought to be provided for. If there were to be particular benches for official men, the times would be easy enough for Chancellors of the Bx chequer and First Lords of the Admiralty, because then there would be none on the opposition benches intimately acquainted with,the mystery of Treasury figures, and cspieble of exposing the fallacies of estimates. Till he saw how seats for such pawns were to be provided he should consider the plan fare-constructing the house den. gerously incomplete. The diminishing of expense at elections would be desirable—but he denied that this plan would effect that object ' • on the musty, he thought the corruption would be extended in a ten-fold degree. It was in boroughs, or places that were to have the franchises reduced or created, that the greatest corruption would be likely to take place. As to the preserving of the life intetests of now existing toles, how was that to be done ? Were they to be registered ? But he would not go into the details of the bill now, it not being before them. - -(Hear.) The Lord;Advocate bad applauded the bill because it gave the right of voting to property and permanent rude!), and yet that learned lord had spoken powerfully on the increased intelligence of the age, eulogising as an instants eh, the evidence given on machinery by two starving weavers of Ellas#o, and yet be consented to a bill that disfranchised such persons. He, however, could obi think that this bill would pass; he believed that there was intelligence enough In the country to detect the mischief of the bill, and finnttessenough to reject it. It was the fault of little minds to condemn all on account of trivial defects; and thus they overlooked all the great merits of that Constitu. don under which this country - had achieved so much power and glory, and enjoyed so much happiness. He should oppose the whole of this measure. Mr. LENNA RD said, as far m he had been able tocomtult bit con. stituents, they expressed unqualified apptobstion of this measure. It would call for some sacrifices from them, but they were reedy to make them, and cheerfully, because they deemed the measure calculated to benefit the country. He approved of it, and he was quite sure that this Reform, by which the Constitution would be cleared of many defects, and rescued from the obloquy with which it was now surrounded, would rally round it the intelligence and loyalty of the country. It had been said, that the cause of Reform wee not very strong in Essex ; but could it be forgotten that the second member for the county had succeeded under the banner of " Tyrrell and Rehm." As to the measure being revolutionary, the assertion had been peeved by no argument; it was Jo fact a measure to restore, not to destroy. As to the large towns now proposed to have the franchise extended to them, could any one doubt that, had they existed in former times, that privilege would have: been granted to/them. (Hear, hear.) He approved of the principle of the bill ; when it was innodeced, be should perhaps take the liberty of proposing some amendments, especially sa regarded lease. holders. The mason he considered would center a great boon on the country. Sir C. DOUGLAS observed, that thoegh there might be somiblots:l in the representation of Scotland, yet let it be remembered that the, country had prospered under it ; and yet that which had worked so well' they were now about to dentoy. Mr. Alderman M'AITH MAN denied that there was any truth in the assertion, that because Reform had heretofore not been continually de manded, that ever the country had been indifferent about it. The cause might apparently have slept, but anxiety had not been entirely extin guished. He knew the public feeling on the subject well; he mixed much with the public, and he could declare, that when the cause had not been agitated, it was in consequence of the manner in which peti tions on the subject had been received by that house. The people had confidence in the present 'militate», and, therefore, they had come for ward and called for reform ; those mi nis ters had ledged themselves to thecause of reform, and therefore were they rally ing round them to give them all possible support in their great undertaking. They saw that there was some use in petitioning—that their prayers were likely to be listened to by at least some men in that house, and therefore they revived their Aiken by petitions. One peculiarity in the debates on this sub ject was so remarkable that he could not &oat mentioning it, he meant the open and undisguised manner in which the corruption of that house had been defended. It surpassed any thing he had ever hard. He would not attribute any bad motives to those who sat for the boroughs; but he must remark that they had throughout displayed by far the most pertinacity in resisting the MIL They had designated the measure in terms that he would not repeat, but language that was wholly unsup. ported by proof; with what prepriety after it was peeved that Peers .returned so many members, and that these Peers Itkewise so lafgely participated In emoluments derived ham places, pensions, and sine. cures, he would leave the house to judge, as well as with what fair. ness such representatives coulJ support the humans of the people. As to threats being held out, he must declare that he hid never seen a more universal feeling on sty occasion than now pervaded the public mind. Such language was a gross libel on the people, and on the Constitution. It was a ggrtooswr libel on the people to say that they wished to upset the Constitution; and It was a grosser libel on the Constitution to say, that free representation was inconsistent with the safety of the institutions. (Hear. hear.) What was to be thought of the declarations of these who called our Constitution the most beau. tiful Constitution in the world et declared that it could not exist without that corruption which had now been so openly proclaimed and defended ? Had he had an opportunity of addressing the house earlier in the debate, he would have troubled them at greater length with his L eeman for approving of this bill ; but after so much had been said, he would content himself with stating, that he most eiteerftilly Obeyed the instructions which he had teceived from his constituents to support this bill. He would only add,—and he did not:mention it in the way of threat—that if the bill did not pass, the conseqninees Mould be of the most fearful character. (Hear.) Mr. GORDON, on behalf of the borough which be represented, (Sea. fold) denied that this bill was renovation—it was revolution. An Hon. MEM BEE observed, that when it was first proposed to the house be considered it of too sweeping a kind; having since, however regarded its details with more attention, he was of opinion that it was quite conformable to the spirit of the Constitution of Ragland : he therefore could not withhold front it his hill and complete approbation ; and he meted that his Majesty's Ministers "mild pursue a firm and even course until they had achieved the consummation of the measure. (Hear, hear.) Considering the exhausted state of the House he should not trespass longer on Its time than to express en ardent hope that the great measure before the House would be canted to a triumphant con. clusion.—(Hear.) Mr. STEWART, in a few words, was understood to oppose the measure. Mr.BAYNTUN would give the measure introduced by his Ma jesty's Ministers the most cordial concurrence—he considered it as neither revolutionary nor dangerous—all the danger he conceived was on the other side ; but if danger did exit* in the country, it became Ministers to look it fully in the face—a mighty spirit had been awaken. ed by recent events, and. F.ngland had stood Alin amidst the confu rico and change of surrounding States and be was convinced that the present measure would tend in a great degree to render her tranquillity more permanent. Mr. T. P. COURTENA - Y said he would n6t take up the tithe Of the house with any defence-of the present queen of representation t but although he had listened with attention to the speedier of the noble 'stover of the bill, and the Lord Advocate, u 'teell is other stitspiseters of the measure, he was still unsatisfied trith the grounds upon 'Aids it was established If such a measure as that doaternplated the noble lewd, were carried into * law, it would be inspoisible foe King and Lords to stand against a House of ammo's chosbn under it.— With respect to patdcular eases, the bill itself would nuke no *differ ence as regarded the borough which he had the honour to represent:— Tortiess) except in two particulars,--expettee of Election, an d direct nomination. lie sincerely trusted that the bill would never to to a committee. lewd STANLEY skid he should support the measure. Fmm infor . nation which ire had ttceifeti the whole community from north to south had not only given the Mature consent, but approbation. He co u ld ten the bon. genfleman opposite, and be did not so in the manner of a threat, that what they had said on the present momentous question... would be remembered by their constituents; it would be said of 'ltem. here are those who represent the people, and yet who are disosned by the people. Foe his Own part he had been returned four mites to Parliament, mid three out of four times, his election had been con. tested, a ptoof that he had no th ing to do with the boro ug h system. now so j ustl y co ndemned. The noble lord Concluded by giving the inmate his support. Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS said, time ought to be given for thr coo. sideration of that portion of the measure that applied to Scotland befury it could be passed through that House. 'The Hon. Member fm Water. ford j said last night, in the style or mob oratory for which he wa, „ celebrated, that Scotch Members took their seats in that house for the purpose of making money. He would ask that Gentleman. if ii,• were in his place, how he presumed to talk in that manner of Scotch Genttentin ? and he would tell him, that there was no Seotcb Gen. tleman in that House that would put himself on a level with that Gentleman in any thing which a Gentleman could deem a matter of pride.—(Order, order.) _ . Mr. THOMAS DUNCO3IBE, (Memberfor Hereford) said that the longer the debate *as protracted the more it became necessary for those members oho bad constituents to express their opinions. Hi. them, two-thirds of the time of the house, during the debate, had been own *td by honourable members who had no constitu e n ts . (H ear , and laughter.) Those honourable members for rotten boroughs,—(laugh. ter,) —had said again and again that the people of England were not desirous of Reform, but the people of England had given ample COh. tradiction to this asektkin in their peak= to the house; and his (Mr. Duncombe's)constitueuts had authorised him to thank his Majesty' s Ministers for the noble and unflinching Mariner in which they had redeemed their pledges, and *petted to the people the pros. pat of a tree representation. (loud cheering.) They hailed the propoied indium with delight, for they saw In it the dertrue. don of that arketieratkel influence which had so long disgraced the house and - desnoyed the rights of the people. In the presence oar his nominees, the honourable member who opened the debate, with as much seal &elicits reason, had said that he (Mr. buncombe) was not a good authority. He considered that he could not give a better reason for not oftener addressing the home t and he thoughttitut the honour. able gentleman (Sr. Pamela) could do nething better than follow hi, example. (Orem laughter.) The bonotttable and learned member f or Boroughbridge had called on mini.ten to stand up in their places and defend their measure if they could. But it appeared to him that they had well defended it • so well, that the henottrable and learned gentle. man must now be co nvinced that his challenge to the ministers might better have been omitted. (Hear, hear, bear, and loud laughter.) Vet be would imitate the indiscretion of the learned member for Borough bridge, whom, as the honourable member for Colchester had aptly said, he hoped to see in his place as " the learned member fur Smithfield," (great laughter), and ask that learned gentleman--and give him his own time too—to reply to the speech of his right honoursbk friend the secretary for Ireland (cheers, and loud laughter); or, if that was too much for him, he would ask him or any of the gentle men opposite, to answer the speech of the Lord Advocate if they dare (great cheering) Ithitating the Indiscretion of the learned and expir ing member for Beroughbridge (laughter), he would call upon him to answer that speech • and to do so, he would give him to the pining oi . the proposed bill (hear, hear, from Sir C. Wetherell); " and p a n" (said Mr. 1)4" it will' (hear, hear, from both sides of the house); and up to the last moment he would give the learned gentleman to answer the admirable, eloquent, and convincing speech of the Lord Advocate. He feared the answer would be as great a failure of as the reply o: tli! ex-Secretary of the Admiralty the other evening (beer, hear). He did not see the tight hon. ex-semetiry then in his place ; but he would take the liberty of saying, that his reply was, to the speech which he at. tempted to answer, as the trash of a certain Sunday Newspaper to the eloquence of the Edinburgh aide (cheers from both sides.) Never had there been a bill proposed to that house under circumstances more auspicioue, or with a reception more promising. For, by whom was it proposed ? His Majesty's Government, with the &sue des of the Crown (loud and continued cheering). Who supported it? The whole nation (cheers) ; and who were its opponents ? None but the rotten boroughs (continued cheering.) For that oppoSition the people and the Ministry must balk been prepared, (hear, hear!) The opposition of the Hon. Members fie 'Wareham and forCellington, -who called the measure a revolution, was • compliment to the Bill, (cheers.) But did those gentlemen suppose that the country would support them, even if Ministers were weak enough to retrace their steps and bow to their decision ? (cheers.) The country had seen the Ministers attack and take by seem the outwear , ' of exemption, and boldly summon the citadel to a surrender, and was it now to be sup posed that they *sold desert them ? " No, (said Mr. D.) yOu ho. rough proprietors, I say unto you, if you do elk open your rites to those Ministers of the Ring and to his people, your obstinacy may for a little postpone our ;victory, but the weaknies of year bars and the rottenness of your bolts, are such that you Cannot prevent it.".— (Laughter and cheetm) They had been told thit them was mdse. thing like revolution In the menaced dissolution of that beautiful assent. t nec (Laughter.) If it were treason to differ horn the opinioorof the member for Boroughbtidge, and from the noble marquis 'the member for Buckingham, then he (Mr. D.) would plead guilty. He was so greet a rebel as to recommend to his Majesty's ministers (should the bill be rejected) to dissolve parliament, and to appeal to the country for fresh suppott. (Cries of Oh, oh ! Hear, hear ! and much laughter.) And more—he would say at the mote time, that the government would be justified (should they find the dissolution necessary) in recommend ing the crown to suspend the writs for the 60 rotten boroughs. (drat cheering and laughter on both sides.) Upon such a proceeding the una nimous voice of the country would put the stamp of legality. In adopt. ing this, the ministers would secure the thanks and gratitude of the country to themselves, and to their royal master. He knew that there was a party in that house composed of some persons who had been, and of some who fain would be, minister—(hear)—who hoped, that by turning out the present Administration they should be enabled to succeed to their place.—( Hear, bear, hear ! from the opposition.) He asked, did they think that them ever would come a time when their anti-reform or sham.rePorm projects would be tolerated by the country ? —(Cheers.) Let not those gentleman lay the flattering unction to their tory souls.—(Shouts of laughter.) Let them not deceive themselves that the country would ever again consent to be governed their old principles of patronage and corruption. As had tr u ly been mid by the noble lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), the time foe that govern ment had gone by. " Endeavour to testate it, Tory, if you earro—and the country will set your borough legislation at defiance ; so that nothing but eonfusioo and anarchy will ensue." He hoped, however, that the Legislature, by adopting in time the efildent, safe, and tonstitu. donel reform proposed by the government would avert such a crkis..l. (Cheers.) Mr. TENNANTsaid Reform had become amatory, as the bahmee in the three estates of the Constitution had become degraded, it was necessary that it should be restored. He was confident the voice of the whole people would be heard in support of the measure, and in grati tude to Ministers for having proposed a reform's* complete for the pro. cation of their liberties. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the qulttionitathein debited loOpir than probably ever before took place, and it was now time he should address the House, and set it right on some points on which he had been mistaken. He felt surprised that on a quadrat of sea Sind im portance to the constitution, the honourable members Who spokeagainst it should confine themselves to gibes and taunts against those by whom it was brought forward and supported. They had not offered any sr.. guments of weight against the measure, but had made it a stibject of accusation against his Mends and himself, that they had consulted par tial interests in the measure which they had proposed. (Cries of hear, hear.) He did not expect that day alter day academes would come doirir to accuse him Of being so uttiniy hese, so coo. temptibly mean, as in a measure which was to affect the future contd. tution of that House—the future legislation of the ematry—that he should consider any private interest of any Member of the Cibinet, or of any relation of his own ; and lesat of all did he expect such an accu sation from the Member for Calliogton, with whom he had so long been on terms of friendship. In deterntiniwg the bermtghs on which the measure was to operate, the rule taken was the population returns of 1821. If they had taken such a return of population is should have included Tavistock. they would have disfranchised 200 members.... (Hear, hear.) It Was not thought right to proceed to that extent in disfranchisemeat, and wherever they drew the Nee Wine objectieu would be made. (Hear, hear.) If they took SOO for Instance, Highals Ferrari was but a little above it. and then It would be mid that number was taken to save the seat of the son of eke Prime Minister.-.- If they took 1,000 as the number, there. *mild be 'Mom for still greater objeedone. Out of the borOughs which remained. when 4,000 was taken as the scale of popelation, three were objected to as Wind been retained for a partial cause; but them were twenty-two others is which no Member at his side of the home had any intereel, but in several of which those by whom the bill was opposed had cot , tamable interest.—(Hear, bear.) He aright mention Ciro. mum, in which it pas known a Nobleman by wheat the Bill was opposed, had considerable interest.—(Hear, beer.) The subject of the scale by which the selection should be made wee carefully condietad, and the poptdittlin return was thought the moat cornet thittiment on which to act. He Would ask, in reply Cu whet bad been said, would it be right to fiend an act of that hours 14_ _.