Star. — London, England, 1822-02-08 00:00:00

!OW .. before the House, bz anything which fell from the Honourable Member who brought up the Petition, as connected with it, hovrevkr much he was surprised that so experienced a Member should betray web warmth, yet, when that Honourable Member tiw veiled out of his way to visit a reproach upon him (Sir Edward) personally, he felt it would be a dere liction of duty to be silent, and he therefore entreated the indulgence of the House whilst he offered a word of explanation—(Hear, hear). —In the first plate he wished to explain what he had said on the occasion alluded to, in which he bad the misfortune to be en tirely misunderstood ; and, secondly, to deny, in tot', the unfounded charges which, from causes and mo tives unknown to him, more than one Hon. Member of that House had thought proper to make against him —(Hear, hear). --He would answer thelast charge which more immediately regarded the motives from which he was supposed to act, by one conclusive ob servation, and in one sentence. The Hon. Member (Mr. Coke) had alluded (he did not pretend to give his words) gat certain gains and profits derived from a public sition, which he (Sir Edward) held, as unduly influencing his opinions in that House, to which he would say, that such:was not the feeling bf the Freeholders of Kent, as the fact of _their having returned him their Representative testified—(Near frintt the Ministers).—He had to ask pardon of the House for his warmth, but he submitted„that W the lion. Member for Norfolk could be exalted for the warmth of his expressions, he, (Sir Edward), who was acting in his own defence, had a stronger claim to the indulgence of the House—(Het:l'i hear). —He hoped to be able to give such an explanation of the expressions he used upon the particular occasion Al luded to, as any candid man should admit to be sa tisfactory. If, upon that occasion, he said anything calculated to call into question the rights or privi leges of this House, he would admit that he was un worthy to hold a seat in it, and that he was compro mising the best interests of his Constituents. But he denied that he had said anything which could lead to such a consequence. What he said was this, and lie challenged any Hon. Member at the other side to correct him, if he stated it unfairly, that, with re gard to the particular question then before the House, it was his decided opinion that it was for the best in terests of the country that a suggestion of relief should come first from his Majesty's Ministers, and that his objections were not to the character of the remedy, but to the quarter from whence it was coming. This being the opinion which he then gave, he had to complain that he was unfairly treated by Gentle men at the other side of the House, who, in their comments upon his speech, entirely kept out of view the declaration he had made, that if the principles disclosed in the Amendment were not distinctly re cognised by Ministers, the Amendment should have his warmest support—Wear, hear).—He addressed himself to an Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Brougham), who, on a former night, corm mewed with some warmth upon his observations, and he wished that Hon. Gentleman to know that however much he (Sir Edward) admired his political, conduct, and however much he was disposed to give him credit for impartiality, yet he could not receive a reproof from him with such absolute deference as to be turned aside by it, from that line of conduct which his own judgment pointed out as the most pro per to follow—(Hear, hear).—He was bound to say again, that, with regard to the particular question of agricultural distress, he thought it was due in courtesy to Ministers, when they had pledged them selves to bring the question forward, that they should not be anticipated by any premature or ill-judged measure, from whatever quarter the suggestion should c ome—(Hear). —These were the grounds upon which he gave his opinion, and his only object was that he should not be misunderstood. With regard to the Petition, he was disposed to agree with the Honour able Member in some points of it, but he thought the observations of the Hon. Member premature. He agreed entirely in the existence and extent of the dis' tress. He was as disposed as any other Member to give his support to such measures as the general in terests of the case required. He did not pretend to • the same experience as the Hon. Member for Nor folk, but it appeared to him unwise to mix up with the question of agricultural distress, any question not connected with it, as the introduction of other consi derations could only tend to mar and injure it— (Loud cries of Hear, hear). —He entreated the Hon. Member to wait only for a little time, until he should see what steps Ministers took. If their acts did not please him, it would then be time enough to visit them with those reproaches which were now launched upon them unjustly, because prematurely—(Hear, hear, from the Ministers). —For himself (Sir Edward) he should say, that he was determined to do his duty, and to speak fairly the sentiments of his constituents. He now declared, that if the conduct of Ministers did not accord with his views of their propriety, they would find in him a warm opposer—(Hear).—He was not influenced by party motives, lie left those to the other side of the House. He would do.his duty, bin he waited till he saw what Ministers were determined to do. Once more, therefore, he entreated the Hon. Member to wait for a time, and he might calculate that he (Sir Edward) would join him in promoting the common object which they had in view, namely, that of serving those interests which were at present so much distre , sed— (Hear, hear). Mr. BROUGHAM said, that an allusion having been made to something which fell from him—not upon this, but a former occasion, when, in the dis charge of his duty, he commented upon a speech of an Hon. Baronet, who was discharging what he con sidered his duty, it was incumbent on him to offer a word er two in explanation of what he then said. It was needless to say that, in those comments upon the Hon. Baronet's speech, he (Mr. Brougham) had as perfect and undeniable a right to observe upon the Hon. Baronet's public conduct, as a Member of that Ilonse, as the lion. Baronet himself had to ptirsue that conduct. if, upon that occasion, he had misre prenntedoemisunderstood the Hon. Member, it was op mfor him to set him right. But, after hearin g the explanation of the Hou. Baronet, on a former night, as well as that of this, night, which was a repetition of it—(Hear, from Sir E. knatchbidl)—he could not discover that he was at all incorrect in the view which lie took. cif his. speech ; and for the truth of this he apPealedao any . one ,who heard the Han. Baronet on that occasion, and the comments which he (Mr. COugham) then made upon his speech—(Near). Me was therefore called upon ane mon e m °ll ' . . airo t N e t r e b , u th t ?a t thst4 h4l he t not misrepreseeted the the contrary, he had ti lab , tmaillsto44 and ace*. m i rattly represented his ing — r . (Heor , Mr. E..,W EHOU said, that situated as he was in conneilon with the county of Norfolk, whence this Petition came, he was called upon to offer a word upon the subject of it. With regard to the dis vela of which it complained, he was boend to . ay, that he believed it was not only greater than ever it was before, but that it was more galling and exten sive than any one not immediately acquainted with that part of the country could imagine. The Petition prayed that reductions might be made in every branch of the public expenditure--not only in the military detainment, but also in the civil list—and in this prayer he joined heartily—(Lotai cries of Hear, from the Opposition);—But whilst he united his voice to that of the Petition for reduction, he had some explanation to offer for the line of conduct which he had pursued hitherto. He was one of those who had voted against the proposed reductions of last year—not that he had not his objections to a stand-, ing army, but he thought that a person in ordinary circumstances could not see the effect which the want of a military force would produce upon our internal quiet and external relations. The great distress of the country now, however, had great weight with him. As to the ' I reduction in the civil list , he th ou g ht considerable reductions should be made in it, and that they ought to take place immediately—(Cheers I from the Opposition).—He would advise a concessionl to be made by the Crown upon that head, which would save much disagreeable detail, and a discus sion as degrading to the Crown as disagreeable to that House--(Hear, hear). —These observations he meant more particularly for the Household ; but they would apply equally to all the branches of the Royal Family. He did,nor calculate upon any great sum being saved, bur it would be conciliating to all classes. The Petition, after praying for retrenchment, prr ceeded to pray for the repeal of certain taxes, and more particularly for an important reduction in the Malt Duty. Upon this head he was not entirely agreed with the petitioners; for though it was the opinion of many Gentlemen that the taking off this tax would serve the growers of barley, yet as it was impossible to raise one grain without others, it did not appear to him that the benefit to be derived to the agricultural interest from that expedient would be very extensive—( Hear, hear). —Even if corn could be raised nine-pence a bushel, it was doubtful whe ther it would do much good. Taking off the tax on Malt could do no great good, unless ether means were adopted. He thobght these means were within our power, and that by dispensing with several items of expense which grew up in the war, an extensive relief could be exceeded. The Petition closed with a prayer for Reform. He did not wish to give an cpinion upon this question now, not understanding it correctly. It might come one day before the House in an intelligible shape; but he hoped the House would not take a step until they had more satisfactory information upon the subject. He should not have said this much, but for an expression used I l by his colleague more than once, that he would not deceive his constituents. To this he (Mr. Wodehouse) l would say, that he was as much disposed to do his' duty in Parliament as any other Member of it. Mr. LOCKHART felt himself called Olson to givit an opinion upon this important question. There were two points in the petition. The first stated the cause of the grievance, which was taxation ; and the se cond the remedies, which were Reform and Retrench ment. It was his opinion, that if the taxes were not reduced, they ought at least to be more equally di divided. It was not true that the fundholder and the agriculturist were equally taxed. The equilibrium between the two interests should be preserved, for whilst one was greatly depressed, the other remained stationary. Some years ago the rentals of this coun try were £51,000,000, now they were reduced ten millions. The interest of the debt was 31 millions ; that was regularly paid, and here there was no reduc tion. The agricultural interest was burdened exclu sively with the support of the clergy and the poor rates. That interest was now in the greatest distress. He did not think Ministers were callous to the distress of the agriculturists—he believed they were disposed to relieve them, but their judgment was not sound— (Hear,froni the Opposition). They had wrong views of public credit, and the means by which it was to be upheld— (Hear). They argued that the mainte nance of public faith was the support of the agricul turist, but he contended for the converse of the posi tion, that the relief of the agriculturist was the sup port of public credit—(Hear). The well-being of the agriculturist was essential to the public peace, and who would say that in a season of disturbance the public credit was mote secure? Care should be taken, that by the pressure of distress this country was not driven to the same state as Ireland—(Hear). Let the distress bear too heavy upon the middling classes, who would no longer have the means of pay ing the labourer, and there was then no means of raising the taxes. This was an honest nation if it were only fairly dealt with. He could assure the House, that in the West of England and in the Midland Counties, there were no rents collected, and when persons could not get their rents, they had not the means of buying those articles which pay taxes.— When the middling man was unable to pay the la bourer, the latter would be driven to despair. The wages of labourers were extremely low. In the Mid land Counties, a labourer with a wife and family earned no more than six shillings a week ; and a healthy man, who before earned fourteen shillings, could now earn but four. With regard to the pro posed plan of relieving the agriculturists by a loan of £5,000,000, he would say that, from the nature of landed property the plan was impracticable, as the required securities could not be entered into. Every Gentleman in that House was aware of the I complicated nature of landed property, and that itl, was impossible for tenants for life, tenants in tail, te nants for long terms, not to mention minors and lu natics, the latter of whom could not contract at all, to give the required securities. Added to this, there was a natural indisposition in all men to subject their properties to the consequences of extents from the Exchequer. He thought the House ought to be slow in giving its sanction to this scheme of a loan, which, unless the Government advanced it in a different shape, would have the effect of laying all the landed property of the kingdom at the mercy of the Crosin and the Ministers--(Hour). He would not have them rnien,tlie peke ct aim but he wafi; strict , limits, SD initiegaititm. •It eras in the last ree absurd that thire , simuld be as mnells-corn *ported in six weeks al wnl44. glut the country for three years afterwards. He concluded by giving the Petition his support. Mr. LUSHINGTON felt satisfied that the epithet calloui," as applied to his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by an Hon. Member opposite,, was used inadvertently. and not advisedly. His Right Hon. Friend was not to b* understood as arguing against any reduction whatever (Hear, hear, frost tie Oppositiops}.4out only against reduction car ried to such an extent as to put the public credit into jeopardy (ffear, hear). —His object was to give relief, and the only diftbrence was as to the objects to whom it was to be extended. Mr. HUME said it was clear, from what had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman, that he was not present when the Chancellor of the Exchequer made his statement, and that he had not read the amendment which he (Mr. HuMe) had the honour to propose— ((Hear, (Fear).—There was nothing in that amendment ,calculated to endanger the public credit; on the contrary, he stated that he would not recommend any measure which had such an effect. What he de .sired was, that no partial reduction should take place —that one or two departments should be reduced— the Naval or Military—but that a general reduction should take place, and that the taxes should be re duced in proportion as the expenditure was lessened 1 1 , —(Hear, hear).—He defied any one to read his amendment otherwise. The Chancellor of the Ex chequer distinctly stated, that if the taxes were re duced, it would but aggravate the distress of the country—(Cries of Hear, hee)—These wei e his words; hut he (Mr. Hume) was glad to hear the Right lion. Gentleman change his tone. it was said by a Right lion. Gentleman below him (Mr. Tierney) that Ministers would be compelled to retrench, and he believed that they ,now felt the truth of that asser tion. He was sure such a feeling had the effect of making Ministers give the explanation which the House had just heard, and he was glad that it had been made, as he augured well from it—(Hear). The Petition was then ordered to be printed. • MASSAGE FROM TIM LORDS. A Message from the Lords being announced, the Messen gers were called in, and communicated their Lordship' re queit, that they might be furnished with a copy of the Appen dix to the Report of the Agricultural Committee.—Ordered. ADDRESS TO HIS MAJESTY. Mr. R. Cuve appeared at the Bar with the Report ,of the Address on his Majesty's Speech. On the question for the Report being brought up, Mr. CURWEN was aware, that by agreeing to this Address he should not pledge himself to any thing; but though this was a circumstance well' known to the House, it was not so well known to the Public, and therefore he could not silently agree to it. With respect to the Speech from the Throne, he 'thought Ministers had not made such statements in it as warranted the House in believing them sincere, and therefore they had no right to expect unanimity. As to the distresses of the country, he was convinced we could not go on without either a reduction of taxation, or a change in the currency. Reduction was practicable ; this was proved by the offer of Go vernment to lend £5,000,000 to persons who had no security to give. Did they mean to lend this sum with-, out security ? that would be preposterous ; and did they believe that, in the present state of the country, any one who had security would borrow money to lay out on the cultivation of land ? The fact was, that the income of the country was diminising, and that unless some efficient measure of relief was adopted, public credit could not be long sustained. A different measure of taxation must be adopted; a system which would deprive Ministers of influence perhaps, but would thereby operate very essentially to aid the cause of Parliamentary Reform—the only efficient means of benefiting the country. The Report was then brought up and agreed to, and the Address ordered to be presented to his Majesty. STATE OF IRELAND. Copies of dispatches from Marquis Wellesley to Government were laid on the table. 1 The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose, in pur-' suance of a notice which he had given on a former night, to call the attention of the House to that part of his Majesty's Speech which referred to the present internal state of Ireland, and he was sure that they would believe him sincere, when he assured them that he had never risen to perform a duty with more painful feelings than he expel fenced on the present occasion. He had certainly hoped, when he recol lected how Ireland had conducted herself of late years in Very trying circumstances, that they would be spated the melancholy knowledge that a spirit of insubordination existed there, which could only be put down by the strong hand of Justice, and by laws framed to protect all classes. by repressing disorder. The task he had to perform was additionally painful to him on other grounds. He regretted that it had not fallen to the lot of his Right Hon. Friend, who was more immediately connected with the Admini stration of Ireland than himself, and he could riot give a more convincing proof that he undertook it from a sense of imperious duty, than he should offer when he stated, that not merely his friends in the Ad ministration on this side of the water had requested him to do so, but those who were charged with the Administration for Ireland had written to him not to delay bringing it forward, even till the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and the Chief Se cretary for Ireland, could arrive. Under these cir- ' cumstances he threw himself on the indulgence of the House, while he entered upon the painful duty which', might have been better discharged by those more immediately responsible for the state of Ireland. He was moved to the attempt by every principle of duty, of policy, and, he might add, by every prin ciple of older and mercy, to repress with the least I possible delay, those rebellions which had unhappily demanded the attention of Government. He begged ,W claim the particular indulgence of the house , F on the grounds which be had just mentioned.— The nature of the subject being of necessity in the highest degree painful to his feelings, he should con fine himself as much as possible in fist stating to the House the substance of the measures which lie felt it, necessary to propose; he should then state the grounds upon which he called upon Parliament to sanction those measures; and lastly, he should state the pro ilsitble duration which they were intended to have.— He was anxious to proceed • upon every principle of mercy towards the wretched and *deluded people who had embarked in the horrible system of outrage of which Ireland was now the scene. Mid he would state to the House, that the measures which he had to propose were considered absolutely necessary to the safety of the country by that highly esteemed arid respected individual who was now entrusted with the Administration of the Government in the A ster country. Those measures were, the re-enactment of the Insurrection Act, and the suspension of the H a _ beas Corpul Act—(Hear, hear). The duration which he intendathese measures to have was the limi te d period of sit months. Thus the House would se e that it retained the power of removing these enact ments at the end of the Session, or of • continuing them, as the urency of the case might demand. This would particularly apply to the :ascension of the Habeas Corpus Act, as he sincerely hoped t h at there would remain no grounds for its continuance, tor he would tell the House that there was no tion to which he could be reduced, more contrary to his disposition and wishes, than that oi withholCh from any of his Majesty's subjects the inestimable advantages of that wilt. These Acts, upon f' timer occasions, were never in force for so short a pti i n a. The time to which the one was limited, at the occur rence of the Manchester conspiracies, was tbr e years. With regard to the Insurrection Ace, Fe feared that there would still remain a necessity fcr continuing it in force, when the attention of Parlia. merit was again called to this unfortunate sub: : e c s. It was scarcely to be - expected, even in case the re bellious state of the country should have been stip.. that state the country in which couldlhi:tv it e c o uld s,tb be f sided into ie of tranquillity t without some extra power being vested in the laws.— The Noble Lord now at the head of the Administra. tion in Ireland had been most active, .ince his resi dence in that country, in re-organizing the system of Police, and in endeavouring to place the Civil Power in such a state of efficiency as, in conjunction with the means recommended, would render the in. crease of the military force unnecessary. The Bills which he was about to move for leave to bring la would be limited to six months, to expire on the Ist of. August next, unless necessity should at ise for re newing them at the expiration of that period. It was rf the very first importance that no delay should be al lowed in passing some measures for remed)ing the unhappy state into which Ireland had fallen. They were not without precedents for passing measures for the suppression of rebellion at a single sitting. He confessed, that When he came down to the llou,e he was disposed to suggest a similar course upon t h e present occasion; since that, however, he bad come to the resolution of proposing that the Bilis should only. be advanced to the third reading, and then to pass the other stages and forward them to the Mate of Lords, and bring them into action as early as 1 os sible in the ensaing weelc. He had now the welan choly task of adverting to the grounds upon "Lich these measures were rendered urgently necessary,— From the official papers laid before the House, it was impossible not . to draw the conclusion that Ireland was in actual and open rebellion. 'lhe ontents (f the two last documents confirmed the existence of a widely extended conspiracy and rebellion in the southern counties of Ireland. Most earnestly did he hope that the wisdom of Parliament might reader it of. short duration. He trusted that the measures which he had the honour'of submitting to the House would be found adequate to the task of convincing the deluded people of the iniquity of their ciiates, and of bringing them back to that dutiful and .11 1 0- missive conduct which alone could expiate thew. He could only expect the return of order and tran quillity by investing in the hands of the Government those extended powers which were necessary to crush the rebellion before it assumed a mote formidable character. For the Parliament to hesitate in graw ing such powers, would have the most fatal tenden.7. They were bound, without loss of time, to place the same powers in the hands of the Marquis Wellesley which had been granted to his predecessors in that high office which he now filled, under circumstances of a similar nature to that which now demanded them. Whatever might be the enormity and horri ble character of the outrages now committing in Ire land, there was at least some consolation in knowi! - g that they did not originate from religious or political sources. They did not bear the characteristics which marked those principles of resistance in general in other parts of the world—(llear,front the Opposition). Ile repeated; that he was glad to believe that this re bellion did not bear the characteristic of other rebel lions. This rebellion was, indeed, founded upon :e --sistance to the laws, but it was of a very sliffenalt nature from those rebellions which originated in bad political principles, calculated to lead to anything but liberty—( hear, hear).—But the absence of that revolutionary character found no reason why it should not be put down promptly and effectively.— It was a rebellion against all law, social order, a;! morality. It was a rebellion against all the prin6- plea of Government which held society together. — Directed by an invisible power, whether under title of Captain Rock, or any other, he cared net, 'dictated crimes and enormities which disgraced man kind. It proscribed the honest portion of the lower classes for their industry and good habits. and the higher orders for• their character and riches—(lker)• It endeavoured to deter the upright front discharging their duty, even when called upon in a Cows 01 Justice. Even the Magistracy were sacrificed as victims,•for the performance of their official occu pations. It was a rebellion of the deluded, idles and profligate, against everything that was valuable in society. It was a rebellion stained by all the rne , t cruel and ferocious crimes —(!fear, !rear). —1 rrn these grounds it was that he was driven to the . 4- mentable necessity of coming to Parliament Cc: thst increased power which would be placed in the hands of the Executive Government, by the } eosins eitle Bills which he was about to propose. lie had said that them was nothing political or religious iu the' character of this rebellion ; bet he would caution the c H u o ro u s se ta7ce a . inst ‘N i ' n h l o r.i Ct g ld ai if h security say, House permit delay in putting down this insurrection at treason, for treason it also certainly was, how too,: it should be permitted to remain without the aggt•t vation of both those characteriAlcs?—( Ilear. I ie listened with great attention to what was said trf the Right lion. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Newport,' on a recent occasion, because the !light llon. 11.11 , 1- net knew...lreland well, and Wished well to. its tote interests. From what then fell ftetniltim, A 4 was not disposed to anticipate any objection in that Litim• li.: I ti q n t • • • Y It