Star. — London, England, 1823-04-25 00:00:00

I was the duty of Government to support strong lan ' gU2 it with all the strength GOD had given this country. That answer would perhaps satisfy the Noble Duke. The Noble Earl then proceeded to discuss the principle on which this cold negocia tion had terminated. Who could bear without sur prise, that where there was an evident intention to make Spain. subject to France, his Majesty's Minis ters wee determined to preserve strict neutrality ? After all he had heard on the balance of power, and the ascendancy of England, it really was surprising tp hear the Noble Lords and Ministers say, " Come what may, though the scheme of Louis the Four teenth be again attempted, Great Britain will have nothing to do with the war." The declaration that . lee denied the power to interfere in the affairs of Spain, was accompanied by apology, which should never have been made. The Noble Duke said, be was not prepared to in •ult the Sovereigns and their Ministers, by the introduction of questions on which hi knew there was a difference of opinion. Ile could not complain of respectful conduct, but he cons plained that partiality, that favour, had been sliewn to the cause of France.. The Noble Duke said, there could be no difference of opinion on the right of France to establish an Army of Observa tion. Ifthat army was stationed there to watch over and foment insurrection raised by France herself in Spain, he, for one, should considor it a measure most disgraceful to any civilized State.— So late as July last, did not the Noble Duke know that the King of France had pledged his word in the face of all Europe, that the Army of Observation was not maintained as any other than a precautionary measure, for the purpose of preventing infection from spreadinA itself through France? Such was the as surance of that King of France, whose word the Roble Lords opposite so much relied on, that King of France who so. eminently displayed his gratitude to us for reinstating him upon his throne. Did he Kt know. that Fiance at that very time had other ob jals in mtintaining the Cordon Sanitaire? Did he ass know that the Jlegency of Urgel was in comma aicatiadwith the French army ; that their Agent was psblisly received at Paris; and that the French army vas to be used against the Government of the Cortes? Dd he not know all this? If he did not, his igno rance must have unfitted him to negotiate at Verona. The Noble Earl (Liverpool) in answer to a question put by him (Earl Grey) admitted that such informa tion had been received by this Government, although there was no positive proof of it, and that the period nwhich it occurred was the Sth of July, the date of that military insurrection which was now made the ground of interference by the foreign Powers.— Good Goo! was it possible to hear such.a ground melted to justify hostility, and net feel surprise at the assertion? The communications on that subject made by the Spanish Government, through Admiral Jabat here, were models of dignified simplicity, and not to be denied. The Noble Duke asked how they could disapprove of the Army of Observation ? He (Lord Grey) could only answer that by putting another question. Ireland was now in a state of all but rebellion. How her condition was rendered worse every growing year, might be matter of ftiture in quir,, and he skould now say it was owing to its resent administration. Suppose, then, a French Beet Sued out at Fermi or Corunna, that persons con cerned in the out, ages in Ireland .were. assisted by France, that vessels were dipatchefl there with arms and ammunition, in such a case he asked ,if the ho- Mor and interests of this country would riot: be con sidered as attacked ? These fasts_ as to trance. and Spain, tnese crimes, were of. indisPatable notoriety. 11.de Villele stated in the Chamber of Deputies that be had given money and arms to the insurgent teaniards, that they had fomented insurrections amongst them, and that their uraninite, views could tube effected until the Army of Observation was ready to go on. The Noble Duke shook his head as din denial of this—la he (Lord Grey) not having itimuch confidence in the French Government, was Wady to believe rite statement attributed (o . ifinj: -tit hest, however, tsar kknial was but a negative pregnant—by no means specific—the utmost it went to was, that the Fi each Minister said his speech vurnistepresented. The Army of Observation was net maintained for Any fair and . bona fide purpose, but to protect those insurrections which were now made the pretext-for entering into a war by France. The Army of Observation was an offence against Spain, and the British Cabinet bat ill discharged their duty by affording it the slightest countenance. His charge against the whole of the Negotiation was, that we shrunk from doing full and amOle justice to Spain. The Noble Duke said his conduct was mis wpresented—he repeated what was said by others cheat the imperfections of the Spanish Constitution, and that the friends of Spain said a change was ne- Tory. But here again, as an Englishman, he (Lord Grey) was filled with shame and humiliation that no consideration was evinced on behalf of Spain. M. de Qtateaubriand said, that a Second Chamber and %het matters mast be conceded—or that the military Mutations must go on. Was then the approval of thisconduct consistent with the honour and the in tent of this country ? What was the object of me lation? To bring parties together, and by mutual ft"asinus to come to some agreement. Here there t alk be none. France insisted on the alternative of fissions or war. Spain could not yield to the *lace in either case, and thence it followed that k tdiati , n could be of no avail. Our interference 1 11 altogether unworthy .01 the British .character. and reduced us to a state o f h um ili at i on grea ter than heeler remembered. Through the course of a long ? a liLic2l life he had supported war where the honour _Winter ens of this country required it, how ", looking to its avoidance if probable. dagger 'oak attend it a s the result. But now .he saw no ' 44 danger; now they were told that every interest inthe believe was fast recovering (and he should be glad to so); and he admitted that the ismer latiaa of peace was most desirable; but this was a Priaciple which required limitation. The danger of a yi', however formidable, however lamenta ble, must met if the honour or the interest of the country re- Tired it. What was the prinCiple asserted by the ' r each Government? Why, that odious and unjult P r intiple of dictating to Spain a change in her Consti tut' ion as the price in her abstinence horn a war, while • ef forts tin French is'iag o we d hi s restor a t i on to th e v ery ef- lie did by which Spain no.: w i s h es t o govern herseil..' not stop to look what was the C o nstitution • of "'A.; by whom acknowledged, or attended with ' what results; but when he leaked at the Constitu• tion of Isl 2, when he found that fortwo years of her great struggle the Government purposes were well conducted, he thought it at least entitled to the for bearance if not to the gratitude of France. No man more highly valued the Brit i , h Constitution than him self; but he was not still insensible to its defects.— He thought, for instance, that the House of Commons required a reformation; he had always been an ad vocate for it; but if he were required . by_a foreign nation to change it, from that very moment he would hold its defects sacred, and defend it with the last drop of his blood from the haughty mandate of a foreign Power. He had heard much of the protec tion of national rights, of justifiable invasions; but an • invasion more truly disgusting, perfidious, or dan gerousthaa the present was never attempted. That of Bonaparte was of this character; but still it was defeated by the Noble Duke, aided by the exertions of that heroic people who were now ready to be sur rendered up to France. With respect to our entering into a war, he admitted we should previously have a just cause and a distinct interest solo do. If remote Powers, such as India or Africa, were invaded, we might not, from their remoteness, interfere--k might not, perhaps, be our interest to do so; but when the thing comes to our own doors, when France was invading Spain, we should not sit silently by while her dominion was attempted. They were told the only alternative of this country was war or neutrality. Neutrality had not been fairly exercised : and war could only be declined by the British Government from one of two principles—either that there was that general hatred of freedom which induced us to countenance Fiance, or that, notwithstanding all our boasts of power, and the high station we were said to hold in Europe, that by the Noble Earl's ad ministration we were really so crippled, reduced to such a state of helplessness, that we dare not meet a war. War might have been the only alternative; but he denied its being either necessary or immediate. What then was to be done ?, Menace? No ; we should have held a plain, open, and decisive lan guage: we should have said to France, your princi ples are unjust—your success would prove injurious to this country; and if you pursue the career you have commenced, we shall be obliged to go to war. He said a war was not necessary, neither did he be lieve it would be the result of such language, when what might be done was not done. It was not given to human faculties to say what seed would grow and what would not grow ; but his sincere belief was, that the result of strong remonstrance would have been a secure arid honourable peace, settled on the surest foundition—the high character of this country. There might be a war; and what were its dangers? None. On the contrary, he thought it would lead to a secure peace—to'a close connection with Spain—to the,confidence and respect of Europe, which were all kiss to us since the destruction of Napoleon. We a:oast have seen Spain improving her Constitution, and not increasing those divisions which were now fomented by her perfidious enemies. United with Spain, we might, by friendly councils, pro4uce peace between her and her colonies on the ground of re- • lathe independence. From this what advantages would not result to Spain and the world, and parti cularly to our commercial interests. War was depre cated because of anticipated and dangerous results; but could peace now be considered as secure ? Sup pose a war was ultimately rendered necessary, would it be attended with less danger than before ? Wobld we, by shrinking from what we ought to do, thereby secure a peace ? The Noble President of the Council had 'held forth a most extraordinary opi nion that .the military occupation of Spain could not lie Considered as threatening or dictative.— But did any man believe that the wished-for restora tion of the King of Spain would be effected without tie ill will of Spain, and that France must not leave an army in Spain in the same manner as Austria had done in Naples? That France might not succeed, i God in his 'nifty grant I Spai n , h owe v er , was crip pled and if Fiance; liagued and confederated with Austria, Prussia, and Russia, held possession of Spain, Spain irritated by our base conduct, in the event of leer success,. would turn round upon us, and then ;what security should we have, in peace? Russia, with her 800,000 mer, could come forth and give us the peace of the tomb, the silence of the grave, and then say she protected the liberties of the world. When silence and despair should be thus produced—when liberty was banished from the earth, who could say it would be secured in this its last asylum ? How then could Ministers meet the indignant reproaches of a free press, expressing the opinion of every honest man? Sup pose, however, that the war should take another turn? Suppose Spain to excite revolutionary feelings in France—in that case should we go to war to support the Bourbons against the result of their own mis deeds ? Suppose the Russian despot were able to set tle the Western Provinces of Europe by his benevo lent bayonets, could we remain at peace? Did his tory, experience, or the present condition of Europe, justify the hope of peace? He sincerely believed not. He had already occupied more time than he intended, but he could not remain silent on such a question. He wished to relieve himself from the imputation of supporting the unjust invasion of Spain; and he ad ' dressed their Lordships in particular, to except him self from any participation in the foulest disgrace which ever fill upon..this country. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, there was some thing specific and distinct in the Noble Earl's speech, which would lead to a clear reply. He would ven ture to say; that before the speech of the Noble Earl who hid j4st sat down, no person in that House could knows - whether the Address was for peace or war. He hid indeed expected that the Address pro posed would contain something distinct, plain, and intelligible; that.some proposition of no uncertain nature would fairly be brought under the considera tion of their Lordships. The speech, however, of the Noble Earl atoned for the deficiencies of the address, and by its reasoning, which had at least the merit of .manliness and candour to recommend it; supplied the well-intended obscurity of the wily document—(Hear).—The noble Earl bad in fact contended, that our condition of waging war with France should depend on. the invasion of Spain.— This was what the Noble Baron should have put into his address, but his indisposition to' do so arose, he supposed from the desire—disappointed and destroyed however by the Noble —g4rri candour—of catching a few votes The caution, with. which the bitibleßa n Baron concealed his real object wai no reconimendatio . , lie ' thought, to the adoption of his address after this ex- te ed? ~,_, H. belie." very little , unless rise people of Spain inlet posure. But he Was willies g to meet this question e of France against the Constitution, and tlamano SUM of c li -- .sh b: s rt o y f a ci n ,u a ld .ori vr t gr o e the tke even t which carried i nto effect the with perfect fairness—he was willing to try the' deli- r U ra i n ci ce the an N d ob th le at Ea rro ri n f l or h ge er t berations of the Cabinet, as they were seen in the that Spain was ij almost y at 1 P , ( ;, 4 ,• P . e v e Papers before their Lordships—upon the fair result localities she was the strr:•igeq Power in Hurope to resist the h attack of a foreign entsny ?' The vent detect/I as well at in-; t h e vert n ue ,o s t of d • that they were calculated to create upon even the character i ci.mbine to mo d el her eon most not ructions given to his Noble Fi tend, the 1);Ike of I therefore, madness , to l s n u ' o t po ru se tl ' . % a i t l'l 'V ot Ce it c e o c t:! t ti mn ev • er li ob vi t aa liti . • Wellington, were, that t o any i ntei f erence w i t h S pa i n, th•tt kind of donti tt i cni over her wlleh would be dangerous to t i h i e bala l ne d e of power or . inimicalln the interests of this country. come what may, his Majesty would not be a party. tp d o e n to th t i h s e su o ,lect s c n t;n s er d iv t e that l. a powerful appeal This was the result of the deliberations of the Cabinet might be upon what he readily admitted was one of the greatest To them it could he sa!d,'' " Y e ou formerly n i g i s te ° r t "e t r il :d it in i. he r ta h lf iP o s f . questions upon which a Government could ever be Spain, and you preserved her by your arms tiom the grasp of France. You saved her from the power of a foreign despot— called upon to decide. They decided for neutrality ; , n y cl o a i re b y u o t u if n t o h w e pre p ared to witness h an d mpendinz.t captivity r‘ . q . a t e m stio t n o , s an a d i if and, upon that decision, all their subsequent conductt a i. t. u i n c d e er se st md o nut hung ; that was the key to all their acts thiough. war were to arise, ) were t h us : le an out the negociations which ensued : and upon this To send out a fleet would he of no use. To sweep t i tre seas p " of point arose the greatest misconceptions of those her commerce, and to take all her colonies would be nothing at all, white she was k entering Spain . with 100,000 or 200,000 men. who dissented from the - propriety of that conduct. They said, " Oh ! you're for neutrality, but yet you chan y ce olfusstuccesse. th A a n t d war , 1 came to o o rtdheer division toh lve ina might act as if you intended war." Whether they ‘' l . ) a e r re a ag i2 2 r t 4 h r e Y can Spain. To assist Spain a foreign e y itemy was nne thing, and determined rightly or not in choosing neutrality, to tt a Nb s e s o i k st le her with one-half of Spain against herself was another. made Lor d had asked, whether they should/410w themselves would be a question for after inquiry; but Navin " d ar . ty cu to ity an i y n despoticsn thate xenrtoi nothing Le d rtai v nly not; hi adopted neutrality, he contended that the only true and he hat a no p course was to use all the means in our power to avoid more pain than that Circular of the three Ifywers g , i A ea ustri m a, war. Was peace, then, best to be obtained by a high Prussia, and Russia, which had received a most distinct answer Londo d nderry. Looking, however, at the state of the and haughty tone towards other Powers, or by tfLit f w m o na rld i-° w r i d th to t t h h e ei r c t o r n u fl e o c t nu w r h ‘e ic ‘ h va w s t a h s at no o s f ewaging frank declaration and reference to the true principles tween theseb r i n ggu ided of the question which they had thought proper to by the British Constitution, which was a compromise bet w een the principles of Mon..rchy and Democacy-a-(Hear hear).--a. make? His Noble Friend had said ti uly, that they that ground their policy should be t a middle ur e a neutral had no occasion to put forward principles--they had c ourse; to keep free from either party in the struggle—to stand only to refer t,, them. The true principles for which upon our own Constitution—neither to be on one side the abet ' , they , contended had already been put forward in 1820 tors of despotism, nor, on the other, the supporters of those and 1821. Upon one occa s io n they were advanced wild and anarchic a l do ctr i n es , w h ich would be the no less cer- I n opposition to different pi inciples laid down by tain t th. destroyers Puu of liberty. In all su c h q d est i ons as t h e pre sethe duty . of the Go other Powers. The Note of Visco u nt CaqiereaA, vernment n to take was applicable.kea sl e revie wlr was of wh at t h e i nterests of of 1821, was in answer t o a Ci rcu l ar prev i ous l y ts - t h e country required; and if it we-e put to the country, whe- • then, upon this occasi on , w e s h ou ld c h oose war or sued by the Allied Gove r nment s . Th roug h out a ll peace, he was convinc that ed ninety-nine Inch out of a h un d re d wou ld my — • the recent negociations th e y h a d expresse d t h e i r op- " ternain at peace." The whole question was one of chances, position to the conduct of France. They had all along and the just course was to let the chances of peace be preferred declared their opinion upon the injustice of her con• to the chancs of war—(Hear, hear). Lord Ate...ra ft a rid t h e M arqu i s o f L ausnows supported duct, upon the falsehood o f th e p r i nc i p l es s h e was the motion. • acting upon, and upon the danger likely to result from Lordtendn LLEN se r t : HOUGH replied; and th e H ouse di v id e d her acts. lt had, indeed, been confe s sed by th e Go- on the A vernment of Spain herself, that we had dune as much Contents for her as she could expect us to do at Verona.— Proxies To those who thought they ought to have adopted a menace upon the chance of preventing war, he would sat, that this was not a case in to hich such a course was practicable. He could understand the advan tage of using a menace with such a view, when the question in dispute hid a distinct and single object.— As for example, supposing that the island of Minorca were captured, a remonstrance could easily be made; a menace might follow, and that menace could be carried into execution. There was something for which we were contending. But in the present case, for what purpose could you resort to menace ? You might threaten her—true. You could say, if you invade Spain we are determined tc go to war. Well, but France dots not for the present invade Spain, and .4 0 far yofir menace is effectual ; but she re tains her army on the frontiers, and how can you ' justly require the removal of an army, prepared, as all must know, to enter Spain as soon as cir cupstances made such an invasion favourable?— W 7 might in this way—by resorting to a menace un worthy of the national honour—defer hostilities forst month or two; but no man could reasonably expect that we could thus, and far ever, suppress all hosti lity. The Noble Earl said, that he (Lord Liverpool) had formerly been prodigal of the military exertions of the country. He, too, had a memory upon. thsit subject. In 1808, he considered the situation of Europe to have been changed, so as to require the greatest possible military efforts on the part of this country. He was then in his Majesty's Councils, and he thought it right to recommend that Spain and Portugal should be made the theatre of war. And he (Lord Liverpool) remembered that the / 4 1 ,, b1e Earl then opposed our making war with Spain against her invaders, the French. He recollected that the Noble Earl then foretold, that in a few months thete would not be a single soldier left in Spain!-- [Earl Guest—" I beg pardon—l said no such thing." He (the Earl of Liverpool) did not mean to say that these were the words of the Noble Earl; but he con tended that inch was the sense of what lie then said. He perfectly well remembered that when, in answer to some questions put to him respecting the state of ' our armies in the Peninsula, he stated his opinion as to their successful exertions, the Noble Earl said he only desired that those words should be remembered. It was now objected to that this country should have recommended any alteration in the Spanish Consti- I tution under a foreign menace: but was there no dif fer ence between the dictation •f a hostile Power and the suggestion of friends? Did they ask the Spanish I GoSernment to concede to their enemies by changing what they thought it would be wrong to change, I or even that which they considered doubtful? No ;1 but only such parts of their Constitution as they were all agreed upon as being itnpracticable—(Hear).— The time, however, at which this recommendation had been made, was said to be most unfitting. The objection he thought came with a singularly bad grace from the Noble Earl. He remembered that at a time when this country was engaged in a war of ter rible magnitude, and, he believed, with a mutiny in her fleet at the same moment, the Noble Earl and his friends seceded from their places, because they could not Rffect the most important alteration that ever was proposed to be made in the British Constitution, under the name of Parliamentary Reforrn. The sup porters of a war policy always overlooked the diter ence between Spain as it was now, and Spain in 1808 —then a united, and now a divided country. It was a farce to say that the civil war ndw raging in Spain was created by the French Army of Observation. It might have fettered and harassed the Government in its endeavours to put it down, but there was no man who knew Spain, and had passed through it, but knew that it was a divided country, and could hardly tell which was the largest party. He would not un dertake to say which formal the majority. He ad mitted that a country like this ought always to be prepared for war, but before entering into war, tho.e who directed its operations were bound to weigh all the chances of success, and of the effect which either success or - defeat would have upon its interests. Noble Lords opposite seemed to speak of the con quest of Spain, as if it were as easy as for him to walk .across their Lordships' . fluor,t Hear, hear),— Ile thought it must appear to every man that these chances were In favour of Spain. lie believed that the French army I must reads Jlattrid, but hoer nit further would they pro- Non-Contents Proxies Majority in favour of the Amendment Adjourned at Half•past nvo. HOUSE. OF COMMONS. 16 -142 19 --48 -94 Mr. CANNING presented certain additional Papers relating to the late negociations.—Ordered to he printed. Several Petitions Were presented against the Southwatk Court of Requests 13i11.—Laid on the table. • Mr. BROUGHAM, seeing one of the Lords of the Admi+ ralty in his place, wished to uric a question, that for the sake of the national honour he hoped would be answered iu the nega. rive. It had been stated in the Public Journals that a Siranish corvette had been captured in the West Indi a n S eas by a brench cruizer. He desired to know whether the Admiralty were im possession of any informant' upon the subject 7 As the intelli. genee had reached this country, this capture must have taken place si; weeks ago, and the letters of marque and reprisal must have been dated at a time as much antecedent of the capture, if the cruizer was authorised by the French Government. In that case there had been the grossest perfidy on the part of that Go. vernment ; and if no letters of marque had been granted, the crew of the French ship had been guilty of an act of piracy for which they were liable to be hanged up by any one who met with them. To make the thing more palatable it was stated that the Spanish vessel was insured in London. Sir G. CLERK said that the Government had received no other intelligence of the circumstance than that which the Hon.. and Learned Gentleman had referrzd tr. Mr. GOOCH presented a Petition from the Chairman and fifteen Magistrates of the County of Suffolk, expressing their satisfaction that the House had turned its attention to the im portant subject of the Game Laws.—Ordered to be printed. . Mr. SWANN presented a Petition from Penryn, praying a remission of the Duty on Coals carried coastways. Mr. G BEN FELL trusted that if the country remained, as he hoped it would, In a state of peace for another year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would remit this tax.—Ordered to be printed. Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a Petition from the County of Kent, complaining of Agricultural Distress, and praying for relief. &r T. LET 11 BR I DGE hoped that the House would attend to the prayer of the Petition.— O r d er ed to be pristed. • Mr. MAXWELL presented a Petition from .the Ship. Owners of Leith against the Strattraer Harbour BilL—Orderrd to be laid on the table. Mr. KENNEDY brought in a Bill for the Regulation . of Scotch Juries.—Read a first time, and ordered to be read a se cond time on the 2d of May. Mr. MAXWELL moved for a Return of the Number of Persons confined for Debt in the Prisons of Scotland, in the years 1818,1819, 1820, 1821, and 1822; specifying the number of debts under LI, under £2, under £.5, and under £2O. The LORD ADVOCATE said, he had no objection to the motion, but should render the Honourable Gentleman every assistance in bit power.—Ordered. Lord STANLEY row to put a question to the Right Hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs. In the Note of Sir W. A'Court of the 9th of D:centber, in answer to M. San Migu.-I's applica. tion for the interference and mediation of this country, it did not appear what had been the conduct of the Government. These were passages left out in the copy of the Note presented to the House, so that it only stated the fact of such a cortnuni cation having been made. There was another question which be intended to have asked, as to the disavowal of all views of aggrandizement on the part of France; but he saw among the• documents last presented, a Paper which disclaimed any idea of that kind.or of restoring anything in the form of a family compact. Mr. Secretary CANNING said that the application men tioned by the Noble Lord was not made in the form of s Note requiring our interference, but consisted of a verbal cow:lonia cation. The answer which this Government had made, was that of transmitting a divatch to Sir C. Stuart, within forty- . eight hours of receiving the intelligence.. with instructions to make it the foundation of negociatioos with the French Go. vernment, and then of sending a copy of that dispatch to Sir W. A'Court, to shew how they bad acted. Those parts of she dispatch which had been kept out of the Papers before the House, bad no reference whatever to this subject. As to the second question, the Noble Lord had answered it himself. MISREPRESENTATION. Mr. V. FITZGERALD said, that he was desirous of cot► reefing a misrepresentation which had appeared in several public prints relative to the debate of Tuesday. He was stated to have . interrupted discussion upon that occasion, whereas the Min. Gentleman opposite, who had called him to order, knew that he was anxious to prolong it. This was a subject which very much affected his personal feelings and character, and therefore he had troubled the House with bringing the subject . back to their notice. Mr. CALCRAFT said, that the Right Hon. Gentleman was perfectly correct in the explanation he had made, and that be was cwt aware of such misrepresentation having been made. , . TAX Old COALS. Mr. Aldirntan WOOL) presented a Petition from certain In habitants of Loodoo, and places adjacent thereto, praying fee a repeal of the duty on Coals carried coastwise. He trusted that the CTianceller of the Exchequer would give a pledge that this tax ' should be amongst the first remissioni of the public bun/sena. Mr. Hosnoess and Mr. Alderman Ramon spoke is support of the Petition. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the situation of the country prevented illy further reduction of rates during the present year. The wOrtil? Alderman witibed bites to give a pledge that tills sax should be tomdttui in the washing Secs skin ;; but the same reason would Neeset his complying Wish that reqiwst. It, the country continued u pane, and e Z e same flourishing state of the. routine Went on, he Auld' r r