Star. — London, England, 1808-01-22 00:00:00

r ••• - , . • 'et He end • t me a n . ta l '.. 6 e ssii , . . . id A great deal had been sat • no . . say that Minlitete . t 4tst .be t he SCOT • expe dition to Copenhagen ; and it was.able to Make out a good cam, and• a. ntir*ieat justi. . t i nt Mini sters were to receive full credit fixation of. their conduct ; but, until they d i d, he led from absolute necessity,. and accor- was not pipared to give his . approbation. Should strict rules of justice. Ministers had, Ministers not lay any documents before the House yet laid before the House those docu- on this subject, he should, on a future day, move i t information, which could alone prove , for papers. or such other i n f ormat i on as he should or justice of t he measure ; and it cer- judge necessary , . to bring a.ca-se, which so much in irima facie, that it was an unprovo- volved the national honour, fairly before the House. ag gression : nor could he see any proba- • In .the consideration of that question, there were two ice of hostility on the part of Denmark, points to be aettided. to ; first, the right, and second when the expedition was sent. If the ly, the policy ; and although he did not wish at pre iyal had entertained at that time any idea sent to give any opinion against Ministers, yet he - with England, could it be supposed that . could.not pledge himself to approve of their conduct. A ve left Copenh a g en un p rotected and ex- The next point in this. Speech which he must observe. removed the Danish army to Holstein ? upon was, the. new relation itt which the country c ertainly have been more suitable to the dig- stands with respect to the Courts, of Vienna and Ber character of the Crown Prince to have re- lin. This was a subject,. however, upon which Mi. e ar n with his army, if he had been nisters did promise to lay the documents before the ty thing which could have called down ' House. It was, indeed, somewhat unexpected and the hostility of England. We have learnt ' surprising, that our relations with the Court of Vi \ustrian and Russian Ministers have left enna should be so suddenly and completely changed ; and nevertheless we still have been told : but when the long and 6rm attachment of that Cabi ;of this country, and its progressive , net to this country was considered, he thought that improvement. He would not pretend to give 1 ' if the fallen state of Austria should have compelled - on any of the points of his Majesty's i her to this change of conduct, we should, in remem ; documents were before the House, by i brance of her former friendship, use to her the lan statements were to be borne out. The guage of forbearance, and adopt a conciliatcry tone - which had induced him to rise was, and temper. Towards France, our old enemy, we A express and publicly record the soy- may use as high a tone as we think proper • and even appointment he felt at hearing nothing imitating the irritating expressions she us ed towards which had been read, that indicated a this country, if we should think it right to do so ; for the restoration of peace as soon as it but to Austria, the oldest and firmest of our friends, ticable. we should use a language and a tone as mild, conci- ISONBY said, that from the variety of liating, and healing, as possible. As to what relates the speech embraced, it was by no means to Sweden, it might be recollected that it was but a a decided opinion upon the merits little while ago when the press of this country ap was the more difficult, as the usual mode geared to have no other theme but the praise of the 1g the contents of the Speech to the magnanimity, disinterestedness, and noble qualities day before, had, in the present instance of the Emperor Alexander ; and such was our high departed from ; and the House, without the regard for the Emperor of Russia, that nothing we intimation of its contents, were called could do was too much for him. Our opinion is now 'ounce an opinion on a s p eec h w hi c h was changed of him, and so might it be of the King of longest that was ever read from their Sweden. If England has contracted engagements . therefore required a considerable degree of with Sweden, Parliament would no doubt wish them pection to pronounce so suddenly an opinion to be performed; but if it was a subsidiary treaty that vinous points to which it alluded. He cer- was alluded to, there must be a great difference of I considered that the first object of the Speech opinion as to the policy of it. Considering the weakness ,as, and must be, to convey to the House informa- of Sweden, it was not improbable that in two or three oat of the situation of the country, as it now stands, months, two or three Gentlemen might start up on the hits relations to France and the other Powers of the other side of the House, and abuse the King of Swe- Continent. If he were to speak generally of the state den as much as they now praised him. He thought the of peace and war, he would say, that peace was be- House must pause, at least, before they gave an un yond all question the first interest and the greatest qualified approbation to a subsidiary treaty with blessing which this country could pursue ; but in so Sweden. With respect to America, it is promised eying, he could only mean to speak of peace abstrac- that information will be laid before the House. When tedly ; for until the necessary information should be the House is possesseelocthat information, they would given to the House by Ministers, it would be impos- doubtless give the stsration that was due to so im- Ale for him to form an opinion whether it had been portant a question. Having made these observations possible for the country to obtain a p eace compatible on what the Speech did _contain, he must also state, withitshonour and its interests. He hoped that nothing what it did not contain, and what he should have be should say would convey the least idea that he re- wished to have seen in it. He should have wished commendedtothose who acted for this country to shew that it had adverted to the state of Ireland—arid he too great a facility in their negociations with France, I was convinced that, if we were now to be engaged or too great an an xiety to accept whatever peace she in a long protracted war, there was no subject more might be inclined to offer. He hoped that England fit for the serious consideration of the House and the would never bow her head before France. (Loud crier Country. He did not, however, suppose that the of ! hear!) He hoped that those who acted for subject was entirely out of the minds.of his Majesty's , her, would stand upon the proud ground that the Ministers—and if any thing should be brought for spirit and resources of the nation warranted her to ward by them in the course of the Session, he well take. If they were to act on any other ground, the knew what superior weight it would have to any country's security, as well as its honour, might be lost thing which could be brought forward by men who •fiir he was fully convinced, that if England were j are generally in the habit of opposing the measures of low to stoop her head, she would never be able to ! Ministers. Although he had thought it his duty to risk again. ( Loud cries of Hear ! hear ! from the make these observations, it was not his intention to Minterial lunch.) It was impossible for him, how- divide the House .upon the Address, the reason which ever, to give an opinion whether Ministers had acted principally induced him to make those observations is they ought, until the case should he regularly be- was, that if he had remained silent, he might be told 'fore the House, and after the production of those do- at a future day, that having once given his unquali cuments and information which would be necessary tied approbation to all these measures, he was pre to decide the question. He hoped that it would ap- eluded from afterwards objecting to them. He pear, that Ministers had acted rightly, and if so, he therefore wished now to be understood, that he nei should be happy to give them his approbation ; but ther meant to express approbation or disapprobation if it turned out that they had acted otherwise, he on the particular topics of the speech • but that he should then freely express his opinion of their con- reserved his opinions tillthose subjects should be regu dict. For the present, he should abstain from any larly discussed. As to the business of Copenhagen, 1 observations on the conduct of Ministers, as he con- if Ministers should produce no papers, he would ceived that such observations would be premature ; move for them, or introduce the subject in some but as the House was called upon to concur in the , other shape, for a regular discussion. If Ministers sentiments of the speech, he should make a few 'ob- I should appear to be right, they would receive the serrations on the different parts of it :as to the ex- I approbation that was due to them—if wrong, the rdition of Copenhagen, it appeared to be the wish of 1 country must take care never to be again involved Ministers to obtain an unqualified approbation of in so disgraceful a transaction. that measure, before they had given that infornia- 1 Mr. MILNES said, he would endeavour to express tion whi c h cou ld a l one ena bl e th e H ouse to judge 1 the ideas he entertained of the measures of his Ma either of its necessity or expediency. This was a jesty's present Ministers, and try to contrast them with subject in which n o t on ly th e interests of the country, those of the Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side of bat the national honour, was so much involved, that i the House ; from whom he had formed very' different besimuld not g i ve an y d ec id e d o pi n ion until Ministers ! opinions—and he was free to confess, that notwith gave the House some information respecting the' standing what had been stated with so much seeming causes of the expedition. If Ministers should not of acuteness by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, on themselves produce this information, he should take the several topics which were embraced in his Majes care to move for it. He had heard with great plea- ! ty's speech, he was disposed unequivocally to accede sure the very able speech of the Noble Lord who i to the Address, without the smallest objection to any moved the address ; but he must observe that both part of it. In t he order in which the Hon. Gentle that Noble Lord and the Hon. Gentleman who man who spoke last had proceeded, the Danish expe seconded the Address, had taken a ground very dif- dition was the first that presented itself ; and, in con ferrr from that which was stated in his Majesty's sidering it, he could not agree with the Hon. Gentle- Slieech. Ministers stated that the expedition arose man, that if Ministers were not able to produce parti from a determination on the part of France to seize cular documents to the House, of the information on the Banish navy. The Noble Lord, however, and , which they proceeded to send out that expedition, the Hon. Gentleman seemed to consider that England ' they would thereby subject themselves to the loss of nad practised too much forbearance, had too long , character, not only with the people of this country , conformed itself t o th e esta bli s h e d l aws an d us ages of but with all mankind. So far from it , he thought cations, and that it was time to depart from. this ' the general state of affairs on the Continent, the Ijstem of forbearance, and imitate the conduct of knowledge of what Bonaparte load effected with all Bonaparte. As to the determination of France, or of those powers on the Continent whom he had subju-, Russia and France conjointly, he could not see that it gated and made subservient to his sovereign will and gave u s any right t o attack the Danes in their capital; pleasure, would fully justify his Majesty's Ministers nor . did he thi n k we h a d any right to presume that in pursuing the measures. the y h ad adopted, .and the Cabinet o f Denmark would comply with their would, instead of loss of character, entitle them to Proposals from weakness, when it exhibited no symp- the praise of all impartial and dispassionate men.— t ( ln of this weakness. He found it still harder to When the Emperor of Russia had given up the cause aaderstand the argument, that because Bonaparte of the confederacy in which he had engaged with "al flagitious and unjust, and openly violated the Prussia and Sweden, and entered into the treaty of bus and rights of nations, it therefore became notes- Tilsit, it had woon become known to Ministers what !al,' for us to imitate his example. It had hitherto were the leading features of that measure ; and it was be en the pride and boast of this country to afford a doubtless on :he assurance of the determination of Tema } , kable cont ra st to t h e v i o l ence an d injustice of France to enforce that tr eat y to its f u l l es t extent , th a t ranee. England had hitherto been as remarkable they adopted the expedition in question. They re rcir good faith, and for respecting the right's of nations, ceived information that the Emperor of Russia as France had been for violating every right which would employ h is whole influence with the Court Stood in the way of her ambition. If kit into a maritime c nisters did of Denmark to draw onfede -8...0tt. mean to eivethe House any information on the racy aga inst this countr y ; to p revail on it .to Zußlecr-beyondtheir bare assertion, he did not know unite the whole force of. its navy. aga- inst our corn-. "' they could claim the approbation of that House. merce aad our maritime rights ; and it would (in his opinion) have.heen an unpardonable omission 114 negligence in Ministers, after the infoniation they had received, if they had nbt used every degree of dili gence and expedition in preventing a scheme which would have militated so strongly against the dearest interests of this country ; and, therefore, the observa tions that had been made against it weighed greatly in his mind in its favour. He had heard it observed, " that a thing might be necessary and yet unjust ;" but to this he thought he was equally and fairly en titled to answer by asking, a Him can that be unjust which is actually necessary ?" He would never agree, while self-preservation was allowed to be the first law . of nature, that we were bound to stand out for cer tainties in cases which depend on probabilities.— Where measures were such as would allow of time to sift thoroughly into every circumstance relating to them, it would be most prudent to do so, and not to act in important matters but on the fullest and most satisfactory intelligence ; but when the safety of the State was at stake, it would be criminal to wait for proofs of a particular kind till the mischief should be effected, which such proofs were intended to frus trate. He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman in part of his concluding words, and allowed that measures should be argued as little as possible on the confidence of Ministers. He would therefore reject that, and proceed to show that there was an actual necessity for every thing that had taken place. He did not think it by any means fair to argue, as the Honourable Gentleman had done, that we had driven Denmark into the arms of France. We ought not to presume too much in favour of Denmark, but ra ther should presume that if we had not acted against her, she would have done precisely as she has done with regard to us. In order to form a fair and im partial judgment of this, it was necessary to look at her former actions ; and then it would be remembered, that she had acted in a manner very inimical to the interests of this country. He had no doubt, from what had before taken place, that Denmark, if per mitted to do so, would have acted the same part over again ; and therefore he thought, we had, by the promptitude and energy of his Majesty's Ministers, been delivered from the effects of a measure that was intended against, and, if not prevented, must have proved highly injurious to the most important interests of this maritime nation. He thought, therefore, that his Majesty's Ministers were entitled to the just en comiuws of their country for what they had done; and that the House ought to concur in that part cf the Ad dress which related to this part of the subject. A Noble Lord had once observed, that he would never assist an Ally till he did not want our assistance ; and, by the same rule of argument, he might say, let us never attack an enemy till they are in a condition to despise us. He insisted, that the more concealed the at tempt, the greater necessity there was to guard against its mischievous tendency, by a prompt and vigorous defeat of it. The Treaty of Tilsit bad fixed and bound the Emperor of Russia fast to the views and measures of Bonaparte ; every act cf his, since the execution of that Treaty, had daily and hourly evinced his increasing admiration of, and adherence to his plans and designs against this country. But perhaps the Emperor of Russia, if he still persisted to stoop with servility to those plans and designs, might prove how far even a despotism like that which he professed, could stand its ground against the united voice of the whole nation. The Hon. Gentleman had declined to enter into any argument on the sub ject of the Russian mediation ; because information had been promised to be laid bfore the House ; and also on the conduct of the Courts of Vienna and Berlin, because he should move for information on those subjects on a future day. He would not, there fore, take up the time of the House, by entering fur ther on either of those topics at the present moment ; but he would observe; that he had no doubt on his mind, but that the conduct of both these powers had been actuated and guided by the predominant and overbearing influence of Bonaparte, who would not suffer any power on the Continent to con tinue at peace and amity with us ; and therefore he thought Ministers were no ways culpable on ac count of the recent conduct of those governments. He then adverted to the case of America, and hoped that the good sense of the moderate and thinking people in that country would so far influence its go vernment, as that matters might still be brought to a fair and reasonable accommodation. His Majesty's present Ministers had on their part shewn every desire to do away every cause of complaint as far as they could, without making a sacrifice of our most impor tant rights. If, however, after the concessions which have been made on their part, a rupture should be found to be inevitable, no blame could possibly attach to them ; but the whole must be attributed to the overweaning and all-powerful influence of France. With regard to peace, he suspected that at the present moment it would only prove a mere inse cure suspension of hostilities ; and on the whole he should give his cordial concurrence to the present Address. Mr. WHITBREAD intended, at a moment so critical and important, to submit a few observations to the House ; but even if he had had no such inten tion, he should have found himself called upon to ad vert to some things that had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. For the talents of that Hon. Gentleman he had a very high respect ; but well as he thought of them, and notwithstanding the appropriate praises which he had bestowed upon the Noble Lord who moved the Address, accompa nied as they were with a recommendation to his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Ponsonby ) to be more acute in his reasonings, he would excuse him if he ventured to say, that he did not think that he had ability QUITE equal to the task of overturning the eternal principles of justice, and those unchangeable laws of morality, which it was wholly out of the power of all politicians either to alter or to shake. If there was no other justification of the attack upon Denmark than what had been given this evening, he had no hesitation in declaring it base and treache rous ; and in prognosticating, that it would prove as prejudicial to us in its political consequences as it had been unjust in its origin and cruel in its mode of execution. The Honourable Gentleman had at tempted to justify the deed, on the score of necessity; and in doing so, had argued, that the more concealed was the enmity of Denmark, the more necessity it was for us to follow it up. But by the same mode of reasoning, would not any individual in private life be justified in assassinating another, whom, for some cause or other, be suspected of entertaining a sentiment AkshoiWaled hatred > n the lionoutahie ten& man Who setbnded the Addicts (Mr. Ellis), in talk; in gof our resciortes ' ntiMbered arhong them Mir ;no& rarity as a nation, he was surprised didllobt blush. Are we really, Mt. Whitbread asked] be* to thispass, that it is announced in a public dechtria tion,wven in the name of the King, that teef WlIo have been always-bending at the altar of the Wing . GOD, acknowledging -his superintending Providence and professing . obefience to his laws, have been ways in the wrong,' and that Bonaparte, that iron= shipper of Baal, has bden always in the right ? The •HOnourable Gentleman, too; had talked of the gl& rious results of the contest, -while, with the salt* breath, they were told, that after fifteen years war, fie had arrived at a state In which we could ekert dtii naval force so as to surprise the enemy ! And Imw was this illustrated ? We had, in the course of the last summer, taken sixteen hulks (for this was the only name by which he could call them) from Den mark, so many tons of hemp, and a quantity, he knew not how many, of spars, masts, &c. And what, he had asked, had we paid for these, merely politically speaking ? We had - given the whole maritime popular dos of Denmark to France ; we had given to France the hearts of all her people. Mr. Whitbread declared that be would rather have seen the fleet of Denmark in fort:ed hostility againt us, manned by her sailors ) acting under compulsion, than he would, after what has happened, see them moored in our own ports. In addition to the inveterate animosity of Denmark, to which this act had given rise, had it not also been the means of cutting off our communication with the Continent, as well as of throwing Denmark into the arms of France ? But we were told, that it would be dangerous to grant the information de , sired. To whom, he asked, would it be dangerous ? To Ministers ?' It might or it might not be so, for he verily believed they had none to give.— Who gave them the information on which they acted ? This he could not well conceive, since they had already asserted their being in possession of it ; and it surely was not very material, after avowing this fact, whether they imparted the substance of the • " ,rmation or not. Their informers would be no more compromised than they were already. Such pretexts would be wholly unavailing to protect them from the execrations of all mankind ; with which, indeed, they were already loaded. But what, he asked, could in their minds have created the necessity for this attack? He owned that he could conceive a case in i t might be justifiable ; but till this case was made, he was obliged to express himself in the strong manner he did ; particularly when they seemed pertinacio usly to refuse any documents which might tend to their justi fication. An inference had been attempted to be drawn of the hostile intentions of the Danes, from the circum stance of their having assembled their army upon the frontier of Holstein. But, in his mind, this circumstance told quite the other way. If the Court of Denmark had known that there were any secret articles signed at Tilsit, of the nature and tendency described, would it not have occurred to it, that this Country might be made acquainted with them, by some means or other, and that an attack upon her wouldbe the consequence ? Instead, however, of concentrating her army in Zea land to oppose the attack which, upon the supposition stated, she had such occasion to apprehend, she assem bled her force in a position to oppose France, from whom, as is pretended, she had nothing to fear. As to the fact itself we have assertion against assertion—the assertion of the Crown Prince of Denmark on the one hand, and an assertion which Ministers had put into the mouth of their Sovereign on the other; and for his own part he had no hesitation in saying, that he gave credit to the former in preference to the latter. Whitbread here adverted to an expression used by the Noble Lord who moved the Address, highly deroga tory to the courage of the Crown Prince, and such as certainly never ought to have been applied to any man who, like him, had been tried, or, indeed, to any man who was untried. He saw, however, with sorrow and regret, that it 'vas quite the fashion to deal out sar casms, and sometimes abuse, on those powers who, in consequence of the pressure of circumstances, had been compelled to abandon our cause. He was fa- from thinking that the Emperor Alexander had dese -ted its in a moment of despondency and alarm, as had been stated, but that he had been forced to the step he took by the strong necessity of the case. Such reflections, to say the least of them, he thought extremely injudi cious, and he had seen some observations in the public prints, which deserved to be more severely stigma tized. From the subject of the expedition to Copen hagen, the Honourable Member passed to the emi gration of the Court of Lisbon, from which Ministers had the countenance to claim great merit. That this had turned out fortunately, he was ready to admit, but that they had any thing to do with it, he utterly and entirely denied. In the Speech, they would make the world believe that they were not likely to be tricked and bamboozled by the Prince Regent of Por tugal, as they would have been by the Crown Prince of Denmark, had it not been for their vigorous and energetic measures. No, no. Every thing at Lisbon was sincerity, openness, and good faith. They and their agent Lord Strangford, brought about the whole by dexterity and address. But in the Midst of all this boasting, did they forget that the Prince Regent had published a Proclamation in the first place, telling, all the English to get out of the way as fast a s t h e y could, and in the next place announcing the' deter mination to join the Continental confederacy against this country. In the mean time, however, Bonaparte's inj udic ious, cruel, and wicked proclamation (they might call it by what epithets they would) appeared, and in the absence of Lord Strangford, the Prince Regent changed his mind. At length Lord Strangford re turned ; finding very unexpectedly that the Court had embarked, he assured it of the forgiveness of his SoVe reign, and fortunately the fleet set sail to the Brazils. This was the plain matter of fact. As to the com mercial prospect which this event was represented as opening to us, all he could say was, that the Gentle. men on the other side, who had drawn such a lively picture of what might be expected from it, were very young, and might live to see their prophecies realized, but for himself, he had no such hope. He could nei ther, therefore, approve of thanking Ministers for getting off the Court of Portugal to the Brazils, not for their expedition to Denmark, in which, in his opi nion, they had a great deal of demerit ; and if he thought that he could be supposed as approving t f that part of the Address which related to these sub jects, he would move that the two paragraphs shoald be left out. But there was another part of the Ad- . t to a ll the wo l t the e•xpedit ted tha t Mir hating a cted fr e strict to th t yet la v eer , no re that 'ma necessity or jars y aPPe ared 'P r , ac t of aggre ss , appearance of ,ate the when Royal had hostilities with would have left ' . „ and rem"' wo uld certainly 1 • ty and character 'ed Copenly, , 'ous of any th him the host , t the Austrian .'s country, and I t he resources of , of inlPKwe nu „ min i on on an " unt il the do , ich those stator t i pa i r eason wl t he might exi ,wand iisappoin , t h e speech whic ; ; s p o sition for the i e ht be pra ctical FONSON • o eICS w hi c h the sl :sy tO declare it It was the co mmunicating em b e rs the day • depa rted fr, , • previous inti: to pronounc . s the longe dair. It thereto ' • tion to d oldie various poi Hilly considered I