Star. — London, England, 1822-02-11 00:00:00

R-: :.- _ _ , - ^ S • r . PdRii.4IVENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 0. .STATE OF MELANIN • About a quarter past five o'clock, the Order of the D:y for sommoning the House to take into consideration the Irish In surrection and the Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension Acts having been read, The Earl of LIVERPOOL moved that the Or der of the House declaring that no. Bill should pass through more than one stage, on any one day, should be suspended for the present occasion. Lord KING immediately rose, and said, that be fore this proposition was put.from the Woolsack, be wished to ask the Noble Earl, whether the first Bill now proposed to be laid before the House, did or did not contain a clause indemnifying the Magistracy of Ireland for all acts done under it, of whatsoever de scription those acts might be? If such a clause had been introduced, it would be indeed a most extraor dinary one—one with which, in his opinion, it would be extremely unfit to trust the Magistrates of Eng lano, butt more peculiarly unfit to be trusted with • the ;Magistrates of Ireland. If the Noble Earl an swered in the affirmative, that would be an additional reason against the Bill ; and if there was any doubt about it, that was a reason why the effect of such a clause should be submitted to the consideration of the Judges for their opinion. If it were absolutely necessary to pass the Bill without delay, he certainly should not propose that the progress of it should be stopped until the Judges should be consulted, but he would suggest that the measure should be passed for six weeks only, instead of for the whole Session of Parliament. thereby to afford. an opportunity in the interval of taking advice upon the-effect of the clause, if any doubt arose upon it. The Earl of LIVERPOOL answered, that this Bill was a direct copy of that which was last in force. He had already mentioned, on a previous occasion, that it was not proposed to continue the powers con tained in the Bill longer than the Ist of August next. If the cillcumstances of Ireland, towards the end of the Session, shisuld require a longer continuance of the measure, the whole subject of it would then be brought under the consideration of Parliament, when he should be prepared to give it the fullest consideration ; but, under the pressing circumstances now existing, he proposed that the Bill should be passed in the shape in which it was brought before the House. Lord KING complained that the Noble Lord had not answered his question, namely, whether the Bill contained a clause of indemnity ? From the Noble Lord's total silence upon that plain question, he must infer that he did not understand the Bill he was bringing forward. lie could draw no other in ference. The Noble Lord proposed to pass the Bill for six months, during which the greatest possible enormities might be committed with perfect impunity by the whole magistracy of Ireland. Now this was a most unreasonable proposition. To avoid this, he (Lord King) would propose that it should pass for six weeks only, which would afford an opportunity of trying the effect of the measure, with the smallest chance of mischief. _ _ Lord ELLEN BOROUGH observed that the No, ble Secretary had said that this Bill was copied from the last Act passed. In that Act, however, there was no clause giving a previous indemnity to the Magistrates, and, therefore, it was important to have this matter clearly explained. The Earl of LIVERPOOL thought the question put to him was premature. When the whole ques tion came before the House, the Noble Lord would have a full opportunity of discussing all the pro visions of the Isill in detail. _ The LORD CHANCELLOR also thought the qaestion was out of time, and that the Noble Lord (King) was a little out of order. The House had not yet come to the contents of the Bill, and, therefore, it was irregular, in the first instance, to speak to any particular clause, and suggest the propriety of sub mitting it to the Judges. It was much better to wait until the Bill was fairly submitted to the House. Lord HOLLAND, speaking with great deference to the Noble and Learned Lord, could not but think that his Noble Friend was perfectly in order. The question put by his Noble Friend was, whether the Bill contained a clause of previous indemnity for all acts which might be done under it ? Reason and common sense suggested that this was the *lost proper season to put such a question. What was the ques tion now before the House ; and what did these great sticklers for order propose to gain by this interrup tion ? It was proposed by the question to suspend, merely for the hour, those Orders which the wisdom of our ancestors had established, with a view to the due deliberation of Parliament upon matters of mo rnent. All that his Noble Friend proposed was, that if there was anything ambigtous in the Bill, or which could not be clearly understood, this unusual pro ceeding should not be adopted until that ambiguity was cleared up. Nothing could be more reasonable.' Lord RIiDESDALE submitted, that unless the Noble Lord pointed out distinctly some clause which could fairly raise the question he propounded, he was' at present out of order. No such clause had been pointed out, and, therefore, there was nothing to jus tify this interposition. What was the construction proper to be put upen the clause alluded to, could not be ascertained until the clause was stated to the House, and, therefore, this discussion was premature. :• The question was then put for suspending the . Standing Orders, and carried without a division. INSURRECTION ACT. The Earl of LIVERPOOL then rose to propose the second reading of ►he Insurrection Act, and stated that if that was carried he had another Bill to pro pose, one for detaining suspected persons in custody rn lteland, both of which he trusted would pass through all their stages that night. He assured the House he approached the question with the deepest regret, because he, in common with every man in the country, lamented the existence of such a state of things in Ireland, as to render it necessary to arm the Executive Government of that country with powers so awful and extensive as these proposed in the pre sent measure—powers unfortunately found neces sary more than once in that pan of the United King dom. The question for the House to consider was, whether it was expedient and necessary, or rather, 'ler it was expedient to arm the Executive (in tent with the measures now proposed, or with others eitsially vigorous ? The papers laid upon tble would afford the House ample information stars of Ireland. But even if they were not in ~~~ possession of these papers (whiC * admitted I the only parliamentary grounds for proceeding), still he should say that the outlines of the melancholy dis-, asters which afflicted that country wet; sufficiently ' notorious to induce every reasonable man to consent that the Executive Government of that collid.) , should be armed with powers of an extraordinary nature to restore tranquillity to that country, limited in their duration as the necessities of the case required. In this view of the case, it would only be necessary for him to state the general features of the case upon which the measure was founded, because he admitted it might be said with some justice, that whilst mea sures were in contemplation to redress immediate outrages, the Legislature ought to go to the root of the evil, and adopt some measures of prevention.— No doubt a time would come, when that would be a very fit and proper subject for the consideration of Parliament. But he submitted that when a House was in flames, the first thing to be considered was, how you should extinguish the flames ; and next, the best mode to prevent its recurrence. The only question for the House to consider was, whe ther the present state of Ireland required an extra ordinary interposition, and whether the measure now proposed was that which should be adopted ? In the general nature and character of the disturbances in Ireland, he had to remark, that there was nothing which (in the vulgar acceptation of the term) could be considered a political feeling. They did not arise, as upon former occasions, from any distinct object of popular discontent, or from a spirit of hostility to the existing Government or the Constituted Authorities of the realm. Unfortunately they were of a far dif ferent nature, and had a much deeper origin. It was impossible to look at it without considering that it was an insurrection against property, tending to sa crifice the lives of the proprietors. It was au insur rection against life and property, originating from private feuds and dislikes to particular individuals. It was accompanied, besides, with this melancholy characteristic, that the evil was not confined to any particular' place. The seeds of insurrection had been extended, and were extending to every province and district. This, therefore, could not be considered as merely the ebullition of popular discontent in one dis trict arising from a particular grievance. Out it should be considered as a concerted system, having for its object to extend throughout the entire country. This he stated on general notoriety, and more obviously from the papers' before the House, and surely then there could be no doubt on the mind of any man, whatever he may think of the remote source of the evil or the remedy to be applied, that it was clearly the duty of Parliament to take the most effectual means to prevent the extension of the evil ; and experienCe had proved that it was not the wish of the Govern ment to resort to extraordinary power if the ordinary course of the law was sufficient to- repress the evil. Their Lordships were aware that an attempt had been made to bring the offenders to trial before the ordi nary tribunals. This was in some degree successful in Limerick ; in consequence of which the expectation was entertained by the Irish Government as well as by the English Government that these means would have had effect. In this expectation they were disap pointed. 'the ordinary tribunals, therefore, having tailed of inspiring terror and restoring tranquillity, more vigorous measures were necessary. It was under these circ tim stances he begged leave to propose the pre sent measures,which hpd before been tried with success. These could not be called new measures, for unfor tunately they had experience of them in that country, and, as far as regarded the application of the evil, they had been found effectual. You might meet an army in the open field, and expel them by military force. But the evil was intended to extend over Ireland; no measure could be wise, or just, or humane, that was not of a preventive character. The present measure had for its object the establishment of a system of po lice which would prevent the extension of. the evil, and would supersede the necessity of imilitary force. For to such a state of things as he had discribed, mi litary force could not be applied. Both the Measures proposed were of a preventive character, which must be the wish, as it was the duty of the framers of a legislative enactment. He was aware that some might' , wish they were more limited in duration; and others, that they should be accompanied by some measures of conciliation. The whole subject would be brought before the consideration of Parliament in the course of the Session. When the question of conciliation was brought before their Lordships, be should be prepared to meet it fairly. But he protested against mixing up the present measures with others of a con ciliatory nature. At present, the House should arm the Executive Government with the means of re storing tranquillity, and then let them consider what should be the permanent system for governing Ire land. But connecting these two questions at present, would only frustrate the object of the present mea sures. Under all these circumstances, he thought their Lordships should not hesitate to adopt a mea sure, of the efficacy of which they had experience. It was only temporary in its nature, and applicable to certain contingencies. When their Lordships had disposed of that, he should submit another proposition to their consideration. . ' AL The Earl of BLESINTON said, he could not suffer these measures to pass without some comment on the speech of the Noble Earl (Liverpool). If the Lord Lieutenant advised the adoption of such mea sures, he did not mean to say that his recommendation was not to be attended to; but if the Executive Govern ment of Ireland was the same now as it was in the time of the Duke of Richmond, what was called the recommendation of the Lord Lieutenant might be no more than that of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, or the Irish Secretary. If these Bills were to be accompanied with some measure of future advantage to Ireland, he should have the less ob; jection to them. Lord KING thought it highly proper that the Bill . should undergo some modihcation. If passed in its present state, Parliament' would have no opportunity of reconsidering it before the first of August; a time when, it was known to every person, in what a slovenly way bu-inesi was conducted, and how thin an attendance there was even upon the most im portant questions. Ile should therefore propose, in the Committee, to limit the Bill to six weeks, in place of six months. It should be recollected, that this Bill was not first passed in the Blitish Parliament. It had its origin in the Irish Parliament, the conduct of which, in its mischievous mode of legislating for • . , . . . ... s ' • . i . . ' .... • .• . . • . ' . . 0 41% • . . . . $ . A was one . orita.argallaiwts wild in sups the Union. JrtICALTHORPEaaid, %hat feeling theitiongest , Jjection- to the Bills on constitutional grounds, thought it his duty.to explain the reasons which in duced him net to oppOse„them at present: With re spect to the Noble Marquis (Wellesley) who recom mended, it was said, the adoption of some strong measures, he. wars quite willing . to attribute to his re commendrition_ ail the authority it deserved, He, thought, however, that the subject for their Lord ships consideration was rather the particular nature of the facts and disturbances on which these Bills were grounded, than the particular measure recom mended by the Executive Government of Ireland. it was upon the alarming, and in many instances horrible and revolting nature of these facts, and upon this alone, that the measures could, in his view of them, be sustained. In the dispatches laid upon the table, he saw nothing wanting of these symp toms, which threatened the most serious and im minent danger, unless the evil were put a stop to by some very speedy and efficaciout . remedy. if they could not recognize in the present disturb ances that fullness of atrocity to which former rebellions reached in that country, it was because they had not yet reached that degree of madness to which, if not speedily put a stop to, they seemed to be fast hastening. One circumstance peculiarly alarming in the pre s ent rebellion was, that none of the causes assigned for previous rebellions in Ireland could account for it. The events now passing proved a frightfully diseased state of society in that country, 'arising from circumstances not susceptible, he be lieved, of immediate remedy. It was on the:e grounds he thought some strong measures necessary. lie wasp not prepared to say that those now proposed were the very best ; but at such a time it was n , a desirable to wait for other remedies, even though they might be more efficacious and unexceptionable than the pte sent. The Insurrection Bill had at least this claim to support, that it had been tried before, and found most efficacious. He felt no he'itation in entrusting to the Executive Authority in Ii amid the applica tion of. the measure proposed. They brought, how ever, both on those who proposed, and those who were to execute them, avery awful responsibility. As the, Noble Earl (Liverpool) admitted the necessity of some inquiry into the state of Ireland, and gave reason to hope that it would be entered into when the disturbances were put down, he, for these reasons, willingly acquiesced in the Bills proposed. The Earl of DARNI..EY said, if he did not oppose the measures in every stage with the. strongest argu ments in his power, he would thereby evince that he reposed a degree of confidence in the Executive Power of Ireland, which he was not in the habit of reposing in Ministers. Even though he were disposed, on con stitutional grounds, to vote against the Bills, the na ture of the times would not permit him. This spirit. was in operation last autumn. He wondered, there fore, that Parliament WAS not assembled sooner. This would have prevented the necessity of calling upon them to pass vigorous measures suddenly. The papers laid upon the table might furnish ground for martial law, but not for extending the Insurrection Act to all Ireland. The discretion which this Bill would give to Magistrates was altogether enormous. The cha racter of the Bill now before their Lordships war characterised by the author of a Ministerial pamphlet, as merely putting out the fire by kicking about the brands—(Hear, hear).— If it was necessary to be re enacted, he confessed, for one, that he should like to see the dispatch of the Marquis Wellesley. No such dispatch appeared. Ireland should rather be com miserated than punished ; and in the name of huma nity, in the name of policy, he called upon their Lordships to take the distresses oflreland into their most serious consideration. The Noble Lord here ad verted to the Meeting of Irish Gentlemen lately held in London—a Meeting at which the Government were strongly solicited not to coerce, but to conciliate the Irish people. He hoped the visit of the Ring to his '(Lord D.'s) unhappy country would do good, and he hoped the best from a warm-hearted Sovereign.— But in despite of those hopes, unless the old system of governing Ireland•were done away—unless the most odious distinctions were put an end to, it was in vain to expect that Ireland could long remain as an use ally to this country—(icar, hear).—Force and division had too long reigned in Ireland, and he trusted the time would shortly come when a govern. ment of conciliation would replace it. An insurrec tion now prevailed, which it was necessary to put down. When the house was on fire, the first thing to be done was to put it out but the Government would in the end be disappointed, if they imagined that seven millions of people would be treated as they had been for centuries back. He was not prepared to say whether the proposed measures were or were not the best, but he should 'feel himself guilty of a dereliction of his duty if he had not made the few observations with which he had troubled their Lord ships—( Hear, hear). - Marquis CAMDEN considered the proposed mea sures necessary : they were not offered to Parliament until absolutely called for ; and he was firmly of opi nion, that without their enactment, tranquillity could not be restored to Ireland. Lord ELLENBOROUGII observed, he never 'gave a vote with more pain than he felt compelled to give on the present occasion. Ile felt the neces sity of putting down the insubordination which pre , vailed ; but, at the same time, it really astonished him that his Majesty's Ministers had not declared their intention of speedily taking the distres4es of Ireland into their consideration—(fkan hear). Unless some thing of this kind were done, it would be in vain to expect peace from the Irish people. Lord II IiDIiSDALE declared-his opinion in fa vour of the proposed Bills, in order to put down the insurrection in Ireland. A good deal had been said respecting the character of - the Magistracy of that country. When he was Chancellor of Ireland, he had taken considerable pains to induce the most respect able persons in that country to belong to the local Magistracy. Their answer almost always was, that they should not hesitate to accept the office, if they cruld secure the support and co-operation of the great owners of property in the country; but it was only in a few instances he could prevail upon them to act. Under such circumstances, the only thing which the Government could do, was to take the Magistracy at they could find them, and to Inane them accord ingly. The great evil of Ireland was, that she never had beeti made duly 'kutmtabis tote laws-v(tleur, poor 1. James ; t tolo a btw h ter . that th:el7r7ceYhi Idlit'l111: . present day. Th e fi t john Ireland—thedrehsn D aigiiad a hi vi nitan es dnilditso t t h thti e hmee T el lis o, f in or done sb ithatewhigtshtoantedndtheer ltrheolarnicdhoaboedditiet t to hin th g e poor. lie had found them iss his intercourse a pftw e ghost sensible of kindness . and attention ; if they found those to whom they were known act towards them with Wildness, they were always rea d y evince gratitude and mildness in return—(hear) He repeated, that though unfortunate divisions tc , vailed upon one subject in Ireland, vet, if th e c o. vernment codld effect a full, fair, and firm tration of the laws, the most salutary conseptelite, would result. If they referred to the patt thit unfortunate country, they would find that who were sent over among the Irish front this co lt , try, had done nothing to improve the condition atiie people entrusted to their ctarge. A *farmer: is tie North Riding of Yorkshire had once poin:ed with pride to the protection afforded him by a bench of Magistrates; where was the man in Ireland could exult in the same reference?—(Heuri. These were many measures of internal regulation, the aloe. tion of which would be most advantageous for L . , land.. Among these were better regulations in t!.,. ; leasing of lands; there were often found five or , : c intermediate tenants between the owner and oc t u. pier ;• in one case he had recommended to a friend the abolition of five of them, and his property was mtich improved in consequence. In the manner o f recovering lands, some-improvements might be i n . troduced to assimilate the practice to that prevailin. in England. In Ireland the landlord was injured, and the tenant ruined, by the present process. On the subject of the Noble Marquis who was now at the head of the Irish Government, so far from thinkint; him culpable for not early committing his re,ponsi bility in proposing remedial measures, he should have held him up as rash and indiscreet, if 1:e liad proposed such a plan in the present contused st . tte of Ireland, and at the moment of his landing—(!/tar), Lord HOLLAND said, he perfectly with his Noble Friends, who spoke near him, on the cha racter of the proposed measures of Government. Ile did not deny the existence of a spirit of inairrectiLn and lawless violence in Ireland, and that it mutt he met by force and by extraordinary means of staispressioo. Ha also readily acknowledged that some additional law was ne cessery. He would also acquiesce in all that had been ioid of the talents, energy, and integrity of the Noble Marquis et the bead of the Irish Government ; and he was not sure that be Might not have voted for the passing of the Insurrection Act and the Habeas Corpus Act Suspension Bill, if the Noble Earl opposite had shewn to their Lordships a single sentence from the dispatches of the Noble Marquis, calling fur the enartmett of such powerful measures. The Noble Earl, however, had rot afforded them the slightest evidence of soak being the wishes of the Noble Marquis ; he had simply brought down to the lluaie the Marquis Wellesley's statemmt of the existing slisat den and disturbances, and stated, that it appeared to the Nohle Mere-is the Insurrection Act was the only remedy which coahl be ai t ,.l. !. The. Noble Lord then reviewed in forcible terms the pro: i. u s of the Irish Insurrection Bill, and inferred that :rem is et 2C:i . 41 nothing but an exasperation of all the unfortunate cvsli of I:Li-nil could b. anticipated. Did not his Nlajesty's Government, i a proposed this Bill, know that the most atrocious abuses whic_t had ever disgraced the annals of any country .upon the face ei the earth, had been perpetrated by those who had the ad:17.i.1- tmtion of the terrible penalties of these laws ? One of :he lancholy effects of such a system of violent law was, that the 17.1 spirit which it provoked led to the exercise and i::dulgvrc: every passion in retaliation—(Hear, hear).—The dreadful st::a of society which was the result, could not be come:el.:at:if wile out the most heartfelt alifrm and dismay. The o/d exantele tf such measures, both upon the Magistrates and the Pcip:e, se.:s also a crying evil. A Noble Lord (Itedesdetle) inad that the melancholy state of Ireland was such, that (rem ::i c h:st to the lowest the laws were di:obeyed. Wet, this enietrsal disrespect :of the law likely to be remedied by measures of c.:7- rection—by violent and revolutionary laws, which cuevert:d petty Magistrates into Tyrants of their vicinity ?—',llrat. It was a remarkable circumstance, that, ever since the l'.ion, there never bad been six, eight, or twelve months. in the ing course of twenty year, in which, if the Irish Magisteccy, or this predominating part of them, were asked what rcn:e,:y they should apply to local evils? that they would not have answered, " Give us an Insurrection Act." In fact, no Lord Lieutenant had ever set his foot in Ireland without being . beset by the emis saries of faction—without having every attempt made to enve lope his mind in the mist of every species of delusion. There was always in Ireland a party who lived by the abuse of their influence with Government. If the Chief Governor were weak man, they used all this to create an alarm in his mnid; iC he were a man of spirit, they put him on his mettle; aid :hi; system was practised, with every ingenuity of intrigue, from uee end of the country to the other, lie earnestly besought his .\1::• jesty's Government nut to rest the peace of Ireland upon the power of coercive measures; let them beware how they pr ceeded in their system of governing Ireland, unless they wet.: ready to meet the just expectations of the people, by the :doe don of conciliatory measures. These coercive Bills, among their many other consequences, always presented an additional ol stacle to the accomplishment of measures for the impreve ment of the country when the season of dan,get was over.— They would find that these Acts would irritate and aggravate, rather than appease and extinguish, and ultimately produce a re ligious and political character to feuds end disturbances, which at present, it was admitted on all hands, were divested of th.: character. Ile recollected well, that when the persecution the Protestants in the South of France was first announced, it was met-by a stout denial of the fact, and au assertion that individuals were not persecuted as Protestants, but as frienls Bonaparte. So here would the same reasoning be aeplied :r -utightte said that the sufferer was nut persecuted lac:ans.• Le was a Catholic, but because he was a rebel. There wax., must repeat; a possibility that disturbances which had tht.r origin in distress and lawless ignorance, might hereafter aSSUIIId the deadly cast of political and religious rancour. The iln•tste? now said, that the tumults were free from such a character—he stated what they were not ; but he forgot to state whet th.l. , were. The State Physician had attended the patient for two years, and could nut yet tell his complaint ; not that the pa tient had not often told him, and exhibited all the sigt: 3 of L 5 deep-rooted disorder; but because the physician preter:.l any thing but a wholesome regimen in bis process of &deli:lie:et: ; to the progress of the disease. The Noble Lord conch...led eulogizing the character and conduct of Karl Fitzwilliam, 5% took an early view of the state of Ireland, in the hope us 1•e:- supported in his excellent plan of ameliorating the eons:Mee ei that unhappy people, and by declaring his dissent from tb: ;•1 0 - posed Bills. of WELLINGTON spoke in favour cf the Int:* sures. As to the employment of military force, he woe's( n="' serve, that there was in Ireland at present a military e-tablell - Larger by double than that which was kept there I:7.viJuvtf to the late war, and as large as could be spared at present from other service. It was true the execution to the preset* law tsr quired force ; but he begged to say, that, from the sorrespond ence on their Lordships table, there were two kinds us le: se which were to W oppoaed:—first, a rebel lurce in open sine. against which force must be employed, and he hcheved force alone would put it down ; but in other puts ut the seas - try there were nightly assemblages of men, who we. t st robbing houses of arms, and in many instances of other prope:t • In some cases the robbery of arms was committed in the mi.'s boustood of barracks. In one instance, a house, situate of 1 -t the distance of a field from barracks, in which were party.. troops, was robbed of its arms by one of :.ose nightly gag • He only meutioned this to slew that the extent of our t I force in Ireland was not the remedy for this kind of evil. • . The Duke of 11UCKINGIIAM surtported the a.u!itil t tra the coofitlence hr placed iu the discretion id the 1. )rd Lieute• mutt, and from the oceenity of the case. lie would support the bccAubo Ilc coaoklered that tit* oper.ttion would be the w bah( veAntill I some c e ea theou I OW Wm .T don, thin that IKni Wel cho ar de bl de