Star. — London, England, 1821-01-24 00:00:00

I was tried, and it was since found, that prices had fallen down to the former amount at which they were when that remedy was adopted; and to what was this fall of prices to be ascribed but to an increase of produce? During the last two years there was no increase of importation, and yet prices had fallen. It was therefore his opinion that no Legislative re gulation whatever ought to take place on this sub ject ; for of one law of this kind which had done any good, nine out of ten had done mischief. Let not the idea then go forth, that, because an evil existed, there ought to be a Legislative remedy. He should crow proceed to notice the most important topic con nected with his Majesty's Speech, and the observa tions of the Noble Lord, in order to explain the policy and the views of the Government. Nothing could be more explicit on this subject than his Ma jesty's Speech, in which the King said, he should regret if the occurrences in Italy should lead to an interruption of tranquillity in that quarter, and that' his object should be to secure the continuance of peace. Indeed, the system and the policy of this coun try leaned to peace, with a view to our own condition. But he would now say, that there was no war which we should be more backward to engage in, than one that had for its object an interference in the concerns of other countries— ( Hear, hear.—He had often before stated, that cases might occur in which such interference would be necessary, on the ground of our security. But he would say, that the general doctrine ought to be, that of the standing policy of this country being to avoid wars of this kind. The present was not the time to enter into' such questions as these; but opportunities would hereafter arise, in which it might be necessary to speak out on this subject. The Noble Lord allowed that this country had nraiutained a strict neutrality ; but his doctrine would lead to anything else than neutrality; for it must go the length of taking a decided part with one Power or the other. His (Lord Liverpool's) principle was, that a total abstinence from any interference WAS the precise line of policy which our duty pointed out to us as the only one that ought to. be' adopted ; and he could assure the House, that no measures would be taken by this Government that were not in the true spirit of neutrality ; and that there should be no attempt at interference in the', concerns of other countries. With regard to that part' of the Speech which said that there should be a re duction in the military force of the country, he had • to say, that last year there were circumstances which rendered an increase of the military necessary. . But now he thought that such reductions might be made as could produce a considerable saving; and, indeed, he thought that, altogether, the expenses of the country might be so reduced, that they could be all provided for without creating any new loans— ( Hear, hear).—With regard to other points, it would not be necessary for him to say anything at this time. As to what the Noble Lord had said, that there was no precedent of Parliament being prorogued without a speech from the Throne, he pointed out the proro gation which took place in 1785, when some very important propositions, relative to the trade with Ireland, were under consideration ; and if Parlia ment continued to discuss any measure at the time of the late prorogation, the business of Parliament could not have been entered upon without the greatest personal inconvenience to individuals. At present, he should forbear making remarks on many other topics alluded to by the Noble Lord, ..until the pro per time came for discussing them. Lord HOLLAND assured the House that no No ble Lord was more indisposed than he was to intro duce any topic out of time on the present occasion. He did not wish to embarrass Ministers; he would not now go into any observation of the general state of the country, but he conceived this was not an un fit opportunity for putting a few questions to the Noble Earl opposite—questions whith were simple in their nature, and capable of receiving a ready and satisfactory answer—and even upon these topics he would have forborne all discussion, but that the No ble Earl had made allusions to them in his speech. But whilst he thus avowed his intention of meeting the allusions of the Noble Earl, he reserved to him self a right of not following him through all his argu ments and assertions. He would not say a word now of the general system of Government adopted by Mi nisters, or the beneficial alterations which might be made in it ; but it occurred to him as a little odd that the Noble Earl should say lie did not understand what was meant by general alterations. To be sure, it was natural enough for men who followed no steady course, who to-day adopted one class of mea sures, and to-morrow abandoned them, to say " We don't know what you mean by alterations.' He (Lord Holland) would tell the Noble Earl what-the country meant by the word, and the changes it eso pected, and would have. They would have an Ad ministration strong in their confidence; they would have that old-fashioned, perfect, and entire under standing between them and the Government restored, which had been so long disused, and which his been so totally unknown to the history of the Administra tions of the Noble Earl and his predecessors for a long time back—(Hear, hear). The People would have that change which his Noble Friend near him had been contending for. But lie was not now go ing _to point out what these alterations should be— that subject was one of too involved and serious a nature, and for the present he should leave it un touched. But with regard to the Speech from the Throne, however, there was one part of it which no honest man could let pass over. The part to which lie alluded was that in which our relations with fo reign States were touched upon. And here he was not a little surprised to hear the country congratu lated, in the Speech from the Throne, because the King had received assurances of peace and amity from foreign Posers, and because his Majesty ex pressed that it was his first wish to preserve this country in peace. But why congratulate the coun try for this ? What! were we to rejoice because the foreign Potentates had not ordered our Sovereign to attend them at Troppau or Layhach? Possibly the expression, under other circumstances, would be taken as one of course, in a Speech from the Throne • but, under the present relations of Europe, when the liber ties of the South of Italy were mortally aimed at, it looked suspicious. He would ask, were these Poten-, tates content with spreadiug their troops and enlarging their means oldiminishing the liberties of mankind ; and aid they ihinit it enough to throw a sop to the King of England, by saying we do not mean to attack you ? Was such the situation of this country in the scale of European Powers? Vas it to be borne . that these Powers, insignificant till we raised them into consequence—needy States, 'to whom we, by our subsidies, wrung from the produce of our People, gave subsistence—lack/enders, but for our forbear ance, in . letting them assume power and property — should go to war against the liberties of a part of Europe without consulting us, or giving us a voice in the question ? The Noble Lord :liked of the im propriety of interference; but who was the wiser from hearing his speech ?—(Hear, hear). Certainly, if arguments on abstract principles--on the pro priety or impropriety of interfering in particular cases:---gave any satisfaction, there was quite enough of them in the Noble Earl's speech. But why was not the Noble Earl more explicit ? Why tell the House that there were certain exceptions to the ge neral rule, when an interference could be justified? and why not say in his speech, or put it into his Ma jesty's, whetheran not such iaterference was intended? The Noble Earl might say so, for the Austrian Go vernment was bound by Treaty to inform the Eng lish Government of what measures were to be taken. It was absurd to urge the reason that they were un willing to ;Evolve this country in a war, and it was no less untrue that there was a necessity for putting the question on that issue. For such was still the, high situation in which this country stood, not withstanding the years of misrule—the difficulties and extremities into which it had been driven by the oppressive and ill-advised acts of the Noble Earl and his predecessors, that the breath of its mouth would dissuade the pusillanimous Monarch of Austria from his crusade against the liberties of Italy. As a Go vernment, it has been for ages contemptible for its. pusillanimity and feeble councils, added to which it has a thousand petty interests to preserve with this country, which it would be unwilling to hazard by any resistance to the expressed wishes of the British Government, A strong remonstrance might, there fore, have the effect of being a prevention of the war. But the Noble Earl said the Government of this country were averse from any interference with the Austrian Government, which, in the result, might possibly lead to a termination of those terms of peace' and amity which at present existed. But what, in ' fact, was this interference, considering the relation in which we stood with Austria: could such an inter ference be held to amount to a decimation of war? Our debtors, the children of our bounty—coald not we, who supported and upheld the needy State, foist in a word of advice, without giving its Imperial and pusillanimous Monarch offence ? The Noble Earl said, Wbat could prove to Austria that we meant to give her no countenance in her undertaking, stronger than the fact that we have disbanded our armies, and re duced our military establishment ?" He had also said, that with the exception of revolutionized France, there was no other precedent on record which could guide Ministers in the line of conduct which they ought to pursue on the present occasion—and he asked, could the present be likened to that case? It could not, without doubt; and he (Lord Holland) never meant to contend that Naples was as great as France: but he recollected perfectly wel, that at the period alluded to by the Noble Earl, even when the Duke of Brunswick was making for Paris, the same language was then held that was used at pre sent by Ministers. How shameful, then, was it not, to evade the question by references to the conduct of Parliament on former occasions? It was making ,his country a party to the infamous designs of the Continental Potentates; and, in good truth, it would be more manly, and more like Englishmen, to take part at once with these very generous conquerors, than meanly and pitifully to say, a We do not ap prove of your interference." It was much better to deal openly with them. But, in truth, this country had a claim to 'demand an explanation, on account of the Treaty to which she was a party amongst other nations. And what, after all, would be the effect of this cowardly double dealing ? What inference would Europe draw from it? Would it be honourable or dishonourable to England? Europe knows, at least so the House is told, that the English Government is unfriendly to the schemes of Austria; but what says Europe to this ? That England, once powerful and respected abroad, still preserves so much of her original public virtue, as to protest against the de signs of Austria; but impoverished, reduced, and ruined, by frequent and unsuccessful wars, she dares not support her dissent by force of arms; she gives us wishes, but she has no money to give"—(Hear). And at this moment a verse occurred to him, which looked apposite enough, but which ::e was almost ashamed to repeat in such an assembly as this. It was, however, the production of a Poet, whose wot ks, it was said, might be laid on a Lady's toilet. The Poet says, humorously enough— " The Doctor understood the call, But had not always where-withal"—(.4 laugh). But with regard to the relation in which this country stood with the Austrian Government, he (Lord 1101-, land) recollected, that so far back as the 12th of June, 1815, a treaty was entered into between the' ' Governments of Austria and Naples, the first clause in which, according to the admission of the Neapo litan Minister himself, contained a stipulation, by which the King of Naples bound himself in a secret article, not to make any changes in the form of got veinment against Monarchy, and to discountenance the establishment of any institutions which might prove dangerous to the system of government then existing in the Imperial Italian States. What that system was, these Powers well knew, and he sup posed so did the Noble Earl too—(A laugh).— Now, if the existence of such an article had been communicated to Ministers, what could be more criminal than the boasts which they made, or what more absurd than their reasoning as to the par ticular instances in which interference was justifiable? Was it not the g:ossest double dealing with the House and the Country, thus to be arguing in theory, when they were sensible of the fact, that Treaties had been actually entered into - for the destruction of the inde pendence of the smaller States ? He hopetlb for the glory of the country, that no such article had been communicated to Ministers ; and yet, on the other hand, what idea would Europe have of the con- tempuble position of England, when they,saw her Allies adopting principles without her concurrence, or rather, which she was known to disclaim ? Why, in common sense, could not a:remonstrance to Austria b e ma d e i n t hi s wa y We see you are going .to war, ergo, you have lots of cash, or the money w hich you have not yet yon are going to borrow in Eng- 1 land, and there you must pay a high interest for it. Now it happens thit you are our debtors ; be good enough, therefore, to satisfy us before you set about the expensive and laudable design of freeing the Ita lians from the form of Government they have chosen. Be just before you are generous, and before you free Naples, condescend to pay your debts"—(Laughter). Now, perhaps, this was putting. the thing in tot) ludi crcus a light, but really the whole was such a mock tragedy, and, by the way, the part which Messieurs the Ministers played in it, was not the most flattering in the world. lie was reminded on this occasion of a short passage in the renowned Tragedy of Tom Thumb the Great, in which the flatterers of that cele brated personage advise him to follow up some ex travagant project he had taken into his.head, and their advice was exactly what the servility of many of the smaller Powers of Germany would give to the Emperor of Austria at the present day. His flatterers thus addressed Tom Thumb— " Great Sir, the purpose of your soul pursue!" But while such advice was given, he would have the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Liverpool) say . . to his . Majesty the Emperor— " Great Sir, I have a small account with you r (Hear, and laughter).—This be thought would prove a most effectual remonstrance, and an excellent hint to the Emperor. His belief was, that Ministers did not wish for a war on the part of Austria against Naples. But it was not enough that they should con fine themselves to the niele circumstance of not wishing it. They should remonstrate, and say to Austria, on the part of their Sovereign—" I disap as I disapprove of any war with prove of this war, any nation founded on the principles of such inter ference in its internal concerns. I disapprove s of a war against a nation with which I am connected by treaties, and in which you cannot engage without destroying the principles on which we have actech"— Such ought to be the language which the Ministers of the Crown should hold to Austria, and he was satisfied 'it would not be without the proper effect. He did not know what papers the Noble Lord oppo site might be likely to produce on this subject ; but if it should appear from them that this country had ceased to be on terms of amity and perfectly good understanding with Naples, in consequence of the late change in her Government, he would maintain that the Government of this country had not done its duty. A word from us against her present pro- - ceedings would, he was satisfied,•be. sufficient for Austria; and, if our sentiments were firmly and de. cisively expressed on this occasion, she durst pot . re-, fuse her concurrence. It was, therefore, nothing Put idle mockery to say to the People of England, that the Government wished for peace, if the yecessary . steps were not taken to ensure it. He was sure that the Noble Duke opposite (the Duke of ‘Vell . pg . ton) must have felt (though none of his Colleagues.had dared so to express themselves) mortified and disap pointed at finding that the Spanish Constitution,(and here he begged not to be understood as meaning to say, that the Spanish Constitution was without de fects—he knew it had defects; but if he store a sub ject of Spain, where it originated, or of Naplei, where it was adopted, lie would shed the last drop of his blood in defence of it, with all its defects, rather than suffer it to be wrested from him by any of the armed despots of Troppau), but he was about to ob serve, that the Noble Duke must have felt mortified and indignant; at finding that this Spanish Constitu tion, which had been established, he might say, un der his auspices; and, however much he might differ from the Noble Duke on many great political ques tions, yet he felt it but justice to him to say, that this I country was not more indebted to his valour and skill as a General, than to the wisdom he evinced on several occasions in his negociations with Spain, and in conciliating the good-will of that nation towards us, but he acted on those occasions with the very Go vernment, and under that very Constitution, which,' as he had observed before, the Noble Duke most have since felt mortified and indignant at finding the despots of Troppau so violently opposed. It was said, that these revolutions were effected by the army: lie was not a friend to the principle, as a general one, that they were the fittest instruments for new model ling a Government. He was too much attached to the principles of the Revolution of 168 S to adopt such a doctrine; but he confessed he was glad of, the mode of * change in the recent instances, as it gave another proof, that those who leant entirely on spears for their support, would sometimes feel the wound in their own sides !—(l./ear, hear, hear). — II was not now a matter of consideration how the revolution in Naples had been effected. One thing was certain—it was a bloodless one; but if it were •as bloody as it was peaceable—if it were as little calculated for the peculiar advantage of that nation, as he was satisfied it was conducive to their better government, still he would denounce the principle of foreign interference with the internal affairs of any na tion, and still less could he support such interference when made by an armed force. But k might be said that we had no right to offer our advice to Austria. He maintained we had. Austria was our ally; and was he to be told that if he saw his friend about to plunge into the commission of some atrocious crime, or to commit some cruel act, that he was to withhold all advice until the deed was done? The advice would be then too late, and he should not act the part of a true friend if he did not give the advice while its adoption might be of use. He would then say to Ministers, •' Give your advice to Austria to desiA ; and if your advice be reasonable, she dare not refuie you." But he had heard it said, that though Austria could not expect any direct assistance from this country, site still would calculate upon the moral assistance of England. Now this he could not too strongly condemn, and it was a great reason with him for maintaining the necessity of having th e mos t explicit avowal of the disapprobation of this Go vernment. If it were once knoen that the British Government were warmly opposed to any hostile proceedings towards Naples, it would soon have the effect of depriving Austria of that moral assistance' which'she might look for in other quarters, in the absence of a positive disavowal. Let England say to her ally Austria, "I say that your interference is improper, and in no one way will I give it any sup. pore or sanction." It was for these reasons that he disapproved of the language of the Speeth ii‘kof the Address , as equivo ca l. It gave t h e i r L or d s hip s no pfarmatum on subjects the most important,' and „Wjuch, for aught that was . said of them, it might as I well not have touched. As the Speech, w a d the Address, gave no information on the subject to which he had alluded he would questions to the- Noble Earl allude;, and i.hoped, for the information of their Loed,hi, would answer them. lie would wish to be whether our Ambassador or Agent at still the accredited Agent to the Neapoli ment r and if so, whether he had received i to assure that . Government that this e not disturb the state of affairs there, or gis, port for sanction whafsoeier-to: - aty such by any other Power, on the principle of , in her internal airangements? - His nett was, whether the secret 'article of the Treaty to which he had before alluded, was cumrr to his Majesty's Ministers ; and if so, , v. :s i t up by any remonstrance On our part, and if i t 'not then communicated, wheller they became acquainted with it, renwastrated thought they were bound to do) against any' in which this country was concerned centaiy• ciples which we disavowed? His next qr whether within the last year, the Noble, applied for the repayment of the Amtrian L. any part of it, or of the interest which we receive from Austria—that interest of which once talked so confidently 2—,(lfear, hear). The Earl of LIVERPOOL thought it tt; Bible to give answers to questions of such upon so short a notice. Indeed, 'he did eat • , know -how he could answer them without goti ostit • a review of the general principles•of Gt . wernats t .„ He thought he had been erplitit enough, assai l views of Government, and consider ing the • which drew forth his remarks, it occnrred that enough had been said for the occasion. no hesitation, however, in saying, that if at aly cure time the Noble Baron.wonld make a the subject, he (Lord Liverpool) would meet, and give him all necessary infoinrati subject. He did no; now think he ought upon to go into details. Lord HOLLAND was still of opinion that th questions were questions of fact, -and that tile.; capable of an easy answer. The Earl of LIVERPOOL could give on so complicated a subject, without going view of the general . •pciliti;tit! dies G:'-verunient. Lord HOLLAND congratulated the country, --so entangled were the public affair s, that a • question could not be answered without ua the whoje'sy - stem, ' Lord' ELLENBOROtGH had one itp put to the Ndbfe Bar9n.' He was in raptunt s magic receiptior the prevention of a %Ira,' putting the country to the expense of mosey *blood. •.Buy it appeared to him, that the way of aAr,ing:a debt frolp . an Emperor, w, by a Gefreal.at tho'hep,cl.6l an • army—(A/ax He was glad thaptiswNoble Lord at the hez::, Treasury had promised *the cutrespondena„ hitherto the speeclfes „were .meagre •of imorl His question to the K able Baron was this.:4 , words - would he.shape the remonstrance that work 'such Magic ?";—(.4 laugh). Lord HOLLAND did not feel himself to answer the Noble Lord's questiOn.. generally .upon the influence which. this must have on the Councils Of Austria, when i. seen that this latter calculated so much upon r sistance; on this ground, therefore, he thougi expression of a wish by the People of England. be entitled to great weif;ht. Lotd ELLENBOIeOUGH.— . . ,, I cook the House, that whatever the Noble Lord have us think of th e debastmAnt iota which. tion has been sunk by' the acts of Ministers fords last 25 years, - •yet it possesses moral imports's enough in the eyes ',of Europe, that the sinfieew pression of its will it Tantamount to law"- (her} Lord • HOLLAND denied that he had said 50(.4 (.4 lath). The Noble Lind then repeated hi, aps meat, loundcd generally ()flour relations with Anna The LORD CHANCELLOR could not helps:• marking that, supposing one. of the Noble Baca who had just addressed then% was Austria audit other Feigland,it would be difVcult to prevent that interfering with each wher. • The question •was then pat on the Address, whick was agieed to wifliZlat a divibion.—Adjoutoedut Quarter to Eight o'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. • At a quarter• before two, the SPEAKeI. e:.t. , red the at this Cline tilt re were about 150 Alemhers a,Fembled. few minutes .:?er, the discharge of cannon annoinced' aesrv's approach ; and at two o'clock the Black Rod Al the House to the of Peers, to hear to: Speech Irons the Throne—(F,r s•htch see.tbe torts).—ln lees minutes the Sci.k,Eru 'returned, but did :lot take the o' four o'clock. On taking the Chair, the SPEAK/tit informed the Halm lie had, ptirsusitt to :VI of ratliament, issued Writs k election of Alembers tor the fol:siwing: pier. s: C.r common, in the room of A. - French, Esq. for St. Athan's room of W. T. !lobar's, Esq. ft:!d for Yarmouth, in the Wight, in the room of T. Broadhead,' Esq. Several Members were sworn, and took their place The. Clandestine Outl..;wry Bill was bro•eght in, cad re:di first time. • :THE QUEEN. Lord A. ITA MILTON gatre notice, that he should on Fall next submit a motion to the House on the subject of trustisi the Queen's name to 'the Liturgy. Mr. WE,TrIERELL wished to say a few %vortical the subject of this notice—(No, no! Order, order 11. The SPEAKER was convinced the Hon. Mutts: would seethe • improprieWsol.offering any ober"' tions on a mere notice of motion. Mr. TIEENEY understood the Hon. Member onhl intended to make some few observations on a sa bjecs . bearing on this motion. If he was not now alloweJl. make those observations, whe n .e ou ld he matte thew. Lord COILERE.4OH.s'aid, if the lion. Gentlh man's intention was that which the Right llne•Gto tleman had • stated, th o u g h it 'would be bet all Gentlemen. ,should be allowed tp . e i pl a in thew 04 intehtions, he might make. tlictu . to- . morrow. Mr. BANKS thought thoOon. Ventlensan should not proceed now; it shras custorMtry first to take lute consideration ilie - 413etai fiottilthe . Throne, provips! any. •7- . • to anylet.businels. • The SPEAKEIL again said, he understood the Haw 11Ie:hber intended to .make - some Obiervations coat notice, bad iqsluced him to jnierpose. • Mr. WliTfiEitti.Lsaid he was abOut to makei preliminary motion foi Papers upon the subjectW.,. .th e - eClu %ion •of the 'Queen's 'name from the Morel and he would now move fur thy= (1.(')h11141°a) I„e'si'idlieiljillit'4l4:ifhtitlol—.(3l.6-tiell.-"L'iortotndlootif-..' 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Measba P ny ober!, bb [ember oil .. . , on a subject a% r allowed U. a naive them? I„._ nentle•