Star. — London, England, 1817-03-21 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY' PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OP LORDS, MARCH in. The Mutiny and the Marine Mutiny Bilk were read the third time and pa.sed. scorri•ttn MEETINGS BILL. Lord SIDMOU ru said, hr should not trouble the House long in stating the grounds upon winch he moved for tae second reading of the &didn't, Meet ' ings Bill, but should reserve himself to answer the Noble.J....ords who had signified their intention to op. pose it:Asdiateiderstood that their objections were not to the Principle, butt;, the details of the Bill. It Was clear that the Committee had recommended additional measuies to meet the exigencies of the time. Two Bills had already received the Royal Assent, which ought to pass, even it no circumstances bad recently occurred to tecumniend them. One was for the pro., ruction of the Privet Regent's person, and the other for punishing the seduction of the troops. The sus-, pension of the Habeas Corpus Act was founded upon information in the posseesion of Government, on which the Committee had made their Report, setting forth that a general insurrection was organised in the country, for the purpose of subverting the Constitu tion by force. The Committee had stated at the end of their Report, that further measeres were neces sary to be adopted, and it could not be supposed that they meant by those measures either of the Bills at. ready passed, as 'they were acknowledged to be ne cessary under - all circumstances. The cause of this opinion•they would find in the Report—it was this, that a •certain priwer existed of bringing persons of every description together, under a pretence tit peti. tioning for Parliamentary Reform, and that this power was rendered subservient to other purposes. With out referring to the Report of the Committee on this subject, he should appeal to their Lordships as to the notoriety of such Meetings. They knew that at tempts were made to aggregate discontent, and that advantage was taken of the distress of the people to delude them into acts of outrage and .criminality.—. Such seas the ground upon which the Committee had made the recommendation, and the result of that re commendation was the Bill now before the hiouse. Part of the Bill was the same as one introduced by Mr. Pitt; and the supplementary Bill of 1793 the, other part was merely the re-enactment of the 39thi of the King, with souse amendments and additional clauses, which he did not think were likely to be ob-, jecied to. One was, that . all Meetings not called by seven householders, should be considered unlaw ful Meetings. Another was, a clause introduced by the Commons, subjecting the Hundred to the charge of the loss which any person might sustain in conse quence of an attack made upon his house. As the law now stood, the Hundred was nut liable to the charge, unless the intention to destroy the house was made out ; but the present B 11 went to indemnify the person fur the destruction of his property, though the intention of destroying the house itself was not established. But upon these points no decision could be taken this day, as the clauses would be discussed in the Committee. The question at present was, whether, under the circumstances stated in the Re port of the Committee, Parliament should attend to their suggestion, that further measures were neces sary to meet the evil A Noble Lord, on the other side, who had contended, on a former night, that the law, as it stood at present, was sufficient, had argued upon provisions in the 36th and 39th of the king, which were only of a temporary nature. and bad ex pired in 1802- He was not surprised• at the error into which the Noble Lord had fallen, but he was sure their Lordships would coneyr in the opinion, that such a state of things as was described in the Report, could not he suffered to continue without the greatest has ird. He was sure they would go further, and detet mine that it should not continue, and he trosted that in conformity to such opinion, they would agree to the motion by which he should conclude, namely, that the Bill be now read a second time. Earl GROSVENOR said. he should object to all the clauses of the Bill, with the exception of one; but he was willing to postpone what he had to say on the principle until the third reading, and to deter his objection to the clauses until they came to be con sidered in the Committee. He could not, however, avoid stating, on the present occasion, that he did not approve of introducing temporary and permanent provisions in the same Bill. Such a combination might lead to much dispute hereafter.. He was one of those who differed from the Noble Viscount in thinking that the laws were not sufficient in them selves; if he could suppose that they were not, he should have no ohj. ction to strengthen them still fur titer. He differeu from him both as to the danger represented to exist, and as to the remedies that onght to be applied to that danger. Ail that they were doing was, in his opinion, more likely to create danger than to prevent it, by exciting disaffection, which be believed in his conscience did not exist, and encouraging a disposition hostile to the Constitution, which be thought there was no foundationlor suspect ing at present. Lord HOLLAND said, that if it was the wish of the House not to enter into the discussion now, he shuirld willingly agree to it ; but he hoped no advan tage would he taken i.f passing the Bill through the present stage, fur the purpose of preventing the di:- cussion of its principle at a future opportunity.— There were some of the provisions, though not the mast important, in which he concurred. He alluded to these which, in their operation, would give to public meetings a greater degree of authority than they could otherwise possess, by preventing improper assembles ; but to almost all the other clauses lie should object on principle. He had no objection to sending the Bill into Committee, on this understand ing ; but he begged the House to recollect, that thej Were now about to pass, in the course of three weeks, measures which, under the administration of Mr. Pitt, ,Parliament had taken six months to perfect.— He agreed with his Noble Friend, that they ought to from the permanent provisions. separate the temporary Th e Bill was then read a second time. Earl GROSVENOR asked, in what stage it would b e most convenient to move for an instruction to the Committee, recommending the separation of those dissimilar enactments? The Earl tit LIVERPOOL said, either at the present moment or to-morrow, before the House went sew Committee on the Bill. Lord ERSKINE put in his claim to discuss the yitietple; as it no proceeding had taken place. The Earl ot LI V EILYOOL admitted that the dis- cussion would be still open, and **Ugh' ttmt it would be more convenient to take the discussion on the principle, after the Bill had gone through the Committee, when the shape in which it was to be finally submitted would be better ascertained. The Bill was then ordered to be committed to morrow. Earl GROSVENOR moved for an instruction to the Committee to separate the permanent from the temporary clauses. by dividing the Bill. The Earl of LIVERPOOL objected to the mo tion, as he did not see that any legal difficulty could arise from the Bid in its present form, the temporary and permanent provisions being sufficiently distin guished from each other. Lord HOLLAND observed that the admission of the Noble Viscount (Sidmouth) proved its necessity. He had expressed himself not surprised at the mis take into which his Noble Friend bad fallen in con• fotinding the temporary with the permanent provi sions. He was glad the motion had been made, it it ‘vere only to shew that there were Lords in that House who disapproved of such a mode of legislation. The motion was rejected without a division. Ite.ta• , TUATION or stAItICS, &c. Lord GRENVILLE said, that before the House separated, be wished to call their Lordships' attention to a subject, which, in the last Session of Parliament, he had pledged himself to bring forward early in the present, if measures were not adopted to render his interference unnecessary. He alluded to.the Regi stration of Slaves in the West India Colonies, and to measures fur the better execution of the Abolition Law. Having been informed, when he first intro duced the subject, that it was likely to be brought under the consideration of the Local Legislatures, he thought it desirable to vie the result, in order to see whether the objects would be provided for by those authorities. Though lie did not agree that near a million of subjects of this empire could be put by_ any Act out of the protection of the Legislature at home, he was yet most anxious that whatever could be done for their benefit, should be done by those who could best do it. This was his reason for not submitting the motion before. He was desirous to wait the result of the experiment. He was since in tprmed. that one of the Colonies had taken the sub ject under consideration, and adopted measures in consequence, and he hoped the Secretary of State would have no objection to inform him, whether the Legislature of Jamaica had discussed, and come to a decision thereof f Eirl BATHURST said, that Government had sent instructions to the different Colonies, term. mending the subject to their consideration, with a view to the passing of some Act of the description alluded to by the NOle Lord. Intelligunce had been received that the Local Legislature of Jamaica had already passed an Act of Registration, and another Act to secure the better execution of the Abolition Law, which he had no objection to lay on the table. Barbadoes had also passed an Act for the Registra tion of Slaves. He expected that the next Mail would bring timilar accounts from the remaining Colonies, all of which had shewn a sincere wish to atteqd to the desire expressed by Government. Lord GRENVILLE expressed great satisfaction at this intelligence, and agreed in the propriety of laying the Bills on the table, in order that Parliament might see whether any further proceeding was or was not necessary. He should either make a motion for their production, or adopt any other course which the Noble Lord thought more convenient. Earl BATHUKST observed, that k would be difficult to word a motion so as to describe them exactly, but he would undertake to produce them himself, and hoped to be able to do so before Easter week.—Adjourned. HOUSE► OP COMMONS. A Penes from tb; Stamp -- oSerprese ---- oted as Aceottat of the Net Balances of Accounts sod Arrears in that Department.... Ordered to lie ou the tabk, as were various accost= from &ifs. rcnt Mors. _ Sir J AMES SHAW moved, that tLe Report of the Committee oa the City Jail Amendment Act he recommitted, on the greund of an informality in the Report, which Initiated ors one of the Standing Orders of the House. A lung argumentative conversation arose, in which Mr. H. Somoza said the error arose from the neglect of the parties M isstated in the Bill; and he should oppose any vote for any larger sent of money foe the object is question. Sir J. S.Oti and Alderman *ruins defended the cooduct of tbo City Agents, and the House divided on the question for the recomnsitment, Which was &tried by a majority of sO against 20. SCOTCH C6MbILSSION Olt INQUIRY. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, there was a state ment in the Report of the Commissioners appointed to examine the state of the offices connected with the' Courts of Session in Scotland, which was a question that affected the privikges of that House. The Lords of Session had thought proper to refer to the Parlia mentary Commission, directing them to examine into the state of certain offices, and to report to them and not Parliament, the state in which they found them. This was an infringement on the privileges of the Crown ; but the Commissioners had pursued a course much to their honour, and had submitted to the Crown whether they should or should not comply with such an order? He must say that it was grest presumption, on the part of the Lords of Session thus to interfere: The SPEAKER observed, that be did not prey cisely recollect the nature of the Commission • but the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated it to be a Com mission of the Crown. If so, that House bad not any control over it, and as a matter of privilege he did not know how the House could interfere. Sir J. NEWPORT said the commission was ap pointed by the Crtuvn, on the address of that House. Mr. HUSKISSON stated that the Commissioners were appojnted by the Crown, and with a view to economy it had been inquired bow soon their labours would be terminated ? They had stated that they had yet to inquire into the office of the &miffs; and it was thought advisable that they should continue their labours. NZW CrINNCHIS. Mr. GIPPS wished to ask a question of the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) respecting a subject that Wab agitated last year. He alluded to an intended Bill for building a number et new churches, in large towns where there werenot suffi cient for the purposes of divine worship. He wished' to know whether it was the intention of the Right Hon. Gentleman to submit any measure of the kind this Session? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER answered, that if he should not think proper to ►ub-- mit such a measure to the House this Session, it would nut be from any diguaished sense of the isn portant* of ha'fiog a - proper tuttither a plates for di , rine worship i but it might be proper to suspend such . espensite undertakings, while the finances of the couotry were in their present condition. covrawon OF VIDZIDAD. Mr. GOULBURN p V sented certain Pro cl a m tions of the Governor of Trinidad, and moved that they do lie on the table. He observed, that he must take this opportunity of contradicting an observation, that he understood had been made on a preceding evening, which was, that British hospitality had been sold at that colony. So far from tills being the case, it was the invariable rule of the Gcvernor not to take any fee whatever from persons who touched there, and he must, therefore, give the observation an unquali fied contradiction. Mr. BENNET had too high an opinion of the cha racter of the Governor to believe such an assertion from any individual, because he did not believe him capable of s.ich conduct. But the remark of his Ho nourable Friend, if be understood him right, was made upon the conduct of the Assessor of the Island, who was a person totally unfit to remain there, or to hold any public appointment whatever. SCOTCH UNIVERSITIES. Lord A. HAMILTON moved, that the Papers ordered on the the 17th February, relative to the Drawback on Paper, allowed to the Scotch Univer sities, be printed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that it had been found impossible to comply with. the terms of the Act, and he would much sooner agree to the total abolition of it than allow the Scotch Uni versities to remain under the operation of a law which constituted a great hardship on these Universities. He explained why the Bill was found inapplicable to the purposes intended —The Papers ordered to be printed. Lord COCHRANE ruse to make his promised motion fur Accounts of all Fines paid into the Crown Office, and the mode of their appropriation. This motion not being seconded, it fell to the ground. EXCH [QUER RILLS. Oa the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the Exoti cs= for the third reading of the Exchequer Dills Bill, Mr. BARNETT said, he could nut refrain from submitting to the Right Honourable Gentleman the propriety of taking some stela, h w_t_out delay, for lowering the Unfunded Debt, which already amounted to more than fifty millions. Nothing could 1)~ snore adapted to the future welfare of the coun:ry, end the interest of the Right Honour.ble Gendrman's suc cessors, unless he thought that he held his situation in perpetuity. The Bank of England was the only establishment that had not been at all reduced by the peace, and they found it their interest to give every' encouragement to the issue of Exchequer Bills, which must ultimately prove detrimental to the real inte rests of the country. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, if the Honourable Gentleman would take the trouble to refer to the accounts before the House, he would see that the amount of Exchequer Bills outstanding was considerably less than it was two years ago, and also much less than last year, with the exception of the six millions voted to cover those outstanding at a particular period. Mii,isrers were now forming a diminution of interest on thcse Bills, whieli could not be otherwise than highly advan tageous to the country. He tulry agreed with the Honourable Gentleman, that the continued issue of Exchequer Bills was not advisable; but the measure was only intended to be temporary, and till the op portunity arrived of converting the unfunded into the funded debt, which was approaching daily, it was certainly most advantageous to proceed as we were now doing. Lord COCHRANE insisted, that this system of Exchequer Bills was the real cause of the rise •in the Funds, in consequence of the Bills being deposited in the bards of the Bank, who issued their Notes to Miuisters to enable them to go on aohile without a Loan. 131 a this would ultimately be the tuin of the public credit. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that it the Noale Lord would only take the' trouble to inquire on the Stock Exchange—(Hsor, hear, and lauglever)—he would find his opinion was totally WrOki, and that Exchequer Bills were not so depreciated. it was difficult to obtain Bank notes, except at the price of gold. Mr. BROUGHAM 'wished we could get from this transition, as it was called, to some solid foun dation of finance. He had heard a report which lie considered so important, that he could not refrain from asking whether there was the smallest founda tion for it I which he earnstly hoped there was nut. It was known, that the West India Dock Company was bound, after their annual dividends amounted to ten per cent. to divide no more, but to reduce the ' rates payable by the merchants. He need not say that this Company held a sort of commercial mono poly, because that was well underitood. But one should think, under the difficulties which trade at present laboured, and when it was known that the dividends of the- West India Dock Company had reached ten per cent. long ago, that their dues should e reduced. It ought to be so from the state of the country ; but the report said, that instead of this, Government is now about, long before the expiration of the Charter, which was for 21 years, to renew their lease and take a fine—that is, to take 500 or £600,000 for the renewal of their Charter before it bad expired; and this must come out of a fund which should go to the diminution of the dues. If this were true, it was an act to defraud the commerce of the country. So monstrous a report, be hoped, was altogether untousided. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought. that after hearing such a report, it was surely the duty of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman to inquire into its truth before tatting it for granted. He could tell him that the report was utterly false. kw, Iseer.) There had been ko such nego elation on toot. Yet he would say, that it was right en the part of Government and the Public to partici pate is these profits. .But the fact was, that the West India Dock Company bad actually reduced their rates, which they were under the necessity oh asking permission of the Treasury to do, as they were bound to repay the money advanced Wore they could re duce their rates. Mr. BROUGHAM replied, that after what had trittopirea, it could riot be denied that there was some ground fur' the report be bad mentioned. Alter a few words from Sir CHANLka blost:a and Alderman - A.l:lKtria. who hoped the House would pause before they granted the renewal of the r through any expectation of a bond, to the injut y the Merchants, the Exchequer Bills Bill Wap read third time and pasied. The Committee on the Cape Wines gill w is post. poned till Monday. The Land Revenue Bill went through a Conin i!- tee.—Keport to-morrow. Mr. BROUGHAM, on moving for le ive to pie : sent • Petition from the Ward of Bishopsgate, playa ing for a Reform in Parliament, took au opportunity to entreat the House not to set their fine against such Petitions, under the idea that they did net contain the sense of the people, because it had been asserted that such Petitions had been sent down to the coun t* ready prepared: Even if this were the case, it was no more than what had taken place under the auspices of Mr. Pitt and the Viike of Richmond, when tfey were advocates for Reform. He did 'fee mean to say that Mr. Pitt ever encouraged the pro. position for Universal Suffrage ; for on this pteet tie did not go so far as the Duke of Richmond ; but it wls well known that they had a system of massulac.. turing Petitions, and sending them down to procure signatures, and their success was owing to some such sort of manufacture as was now scouted at being the work of persons who wanted to overturn the Govern ment and effect a Revolution. Mr. BANKES was sure that at no time of Mr. Pitt's lite did he ever countenence the principle of Universal Suffrage; and even with respect to Re. form, he only proposed to submit the whole Matter to Airliament and move for a general Committee: He had the best reason to believe teat he never had any thing to do with the rnanufactwing of Petitions. Mr. BROUGHAM, in explanation. said he did not attribute the manufacture of the Petitions to Mr. Pitt himself; but it /as well known that they were prepared by the agents of himself and the Duke of Richmond. Mr. R. WARD thought there were just reasons for Mr. Pitt's adoption of very different sentiments in his later years from those entertained by him when a mere boy, and comparatively unacquainted with po litics and human nature. Whatever had been the practice alluded to, he certainly would never admit that petitions manufactured here, and sent down ready niade to the country, perhaps imperfectly represent iug, it nut contradicting, the sentiments of the sub scribers. should be entitled to the same consideration as those which proceeded generally from the dicta tion of Petitioners themselves, nor would it be just they should— (hear, fear) —although such it would ap pear had been the sentiments of his Hon. Friend. Lord A. HAMILTON thought the defence of Mr. Pot, though already on record in two or three of bit set speeches, fell very properly to the lot of the able Gentleman, whose sincerity in defence of that person's conduct could not adii.it of a question. (if laugh.) Plt 'lament had unfortunately treated the subject of petitions with much harshness, and in the case of a petitiun he hadpresented to the House from Durnfries.sa:i e, it had been objected that the Eigna tuies of all the boys in a school had been affixed to it, a LitCUTIIE.O2:te which had been contradicted and dis proved by information he had since received. Mr. SIIARP thought the sentiments of Mr. Pitt might be considered not's() adverse to Reform, even in his later years, from the evrangements he made when the Union of this country sod Ireland took place. It was very remarkable, that of the one hun dred Members added to that House, sixty of them were for great towns or counties, in which the mode of election was completely unobjectionaLle. The Petition was then teed, and laid on the table. Sir JAMES SHAW obt.tlned have to bring In a Ihd (11 regu late. the Otliceot Gauger of the City of boodoo• Lord COLIMA:4U ;asked tor inturrystitni nespeent , g some money lett by the W or a Mc. •Frf , tightein for Charitrbte pur poses. but ..Yh' had been escheated to the Crown. The CH LI .014. of the EXCHEQUER said he believed it was 'kelt known, t%:.'t un!.er the authority of the Lrow n, tat property in Tiestion had been applied it. - iJ of the Civil 1.11. t. Mr. i3AW.NGTON brought up a I' ci i :outi liont the 1;.!1.1.V -tants of Lecester,. praying some Ateratani 'Le Visor Levi, ittad and ordered to lie on the table. Sir JOHN NEW POR C motet for an account of :he &dared official value of all ll:ports hum Great i:rit“ltt tottel•ud, ft.r every quarter in each of the years I 81.2, I 8 &ti t and 1t...1 , al o similar aci.ounts from 1792 to 1814.—Agreed to• The London Gas Light Extension bul W4ll riad a gird et • and pass.•tl. other Orders being disposed of the House tdjouratJ. PARLIAMEN I'ARY PAPERS. OFFICES IN COUR I S OF LAW, ENGLAND. Return to au Athirets or the Houuurable House ut ti:onnodos. to his Royal liighneas tiie l'rince Knew, rvquir ng a Return of the Natnesut all such subordinate Uflicers iti the several • Cowls of Law and Equity of England, as are held ta frost fur the several Chief or other Judges of such Courts, or of which the Profits are, in the whole or impart, applied to 06: ow • i specifying the Amount of bitch Protitg, and to wh..tia and for whose use they are applied. 1. THE LORD CHANCELLOR. - • _ ...... It appears from a Report of the Committee of the Honourable the House of Commons, made to thAt House in the year 1811, that, among other emolu ments of the Great Seal, the pers,its bolding the si tuations of Secretary of Bankrupts, and Purse Bearer. receive, for the use of the person holding the Great Seal, aunts for which. they account, and which it is believed, have been always the same, sal the prQse•it Chancellor directed certain payments to be toads os:: of what was accounted for to his predecessots, as stated in the Report of the Commissioners fur quirkg into the fees of the Courts of Justice, a coil' of which Report, as returned into Chancery. 11.1 s in obedience to an order of the House, been 'laid bPiote it. Soon after the Report of the Committee of House of Commons in ISI I was made, the ertoiti: ments of the Great Seal were charged, by Act or Parliament, with £C2,500 a-year, to be pain to the Suitors' Fund, to reimburse that Fund one.halt the Vice-Chancellor's salary. The persons holding those situations have, through a long puled ot ttate• so received fur, and accounted to the Lord Ch.incel. lair, Lord Keeper, and Lords Commis.iourrs et tile Great Seal for the time being. Unless these persons Call be considered as linh!itig offices in trust for the Great Seal, within the ine.w.g of the Address of the House of Commons, o: e Mb day of February, there are no offices Nel,i la trust fur the Lord Chancellor, Lord Keeper, ut LOI • $ Commissioners of the Great Seal for the time hm.. ! ;. or of which the inutits are in the whole or it pt . :. di" plied to their use. The Address referred to, if it applies to these iv. ceipts, requires the amount received, but sprcin,, 110 period watt returnee to which that amount is To .-e stated ; but it is thoug . ht r;ght to state the slims ri" ceived fur; and accounted for to the Great 4e 41 0 i"r a ti P al ei al it 1' , e ~ I • • • Z .„