Star. — London, England, 1817-02-08 00:00:00

'officers.ocor.o.. had always opposes himself to thatisimOiss: clamour which cl.arged public men with - int - Wing ion large a proportion of the public reuriey. 'lt - would be nearer the troth to sai, Owl Wine w to pAid toa highly an i oche, s but model ately. Brut there was a great chiference between those times when the Reveaup was improving every year, when the - 1 , ht was regularly paying off, and n•%ix, when the • re..emie was decline•.g, and was kit .wat& have eirchnei/ hof.re it could he ascerai•wd. the har vest would turn out I r id. This spewed there was ibmething rott eil in the s:a;eld ihe c marry. tie'hoped it was not inourable, but it wan lainentahle aiid,citreine The Chancellor of the Exchequer tii,•l sol.est r ftirfihpes; he had said, that they should not he at the deficit tUat appeared, when thy looted at the extruordmaty cir. cu.nstances ot the coo ary. This was admitting cite evil of weicli all complained, and deriving consolation on, distress. itself. The plan af Ministers was that fit h erowingk.anct by this, as by all other athicipa• tions u: the same• nature. a spirit of extravagance was encouragest. • If they borrowed with one hand; and 'kept the, Sinking Fond sacred .wi't'h the other, it .amontsted to the same. thing in the end.— They were now in a most embarrassing itate.'and • ell that the Finance Minister could tell them was. t tat he You'd isarele make both ends meet. How 1 nig this was to,go on no men could pronounce, but it some measure was oat adtpted, the worst conse quences were to he reared. They ssould be at length ern:spelled to take from the Sinking Farad, or to take some step inconsiste.it witit their taith to the public creditor. It was dreadtul to look forward to such .an gent. The only alte:riative was that .of cutting dawn then establishments.. • He trembled at the idea of not being able ta perthe interest of the National • Debt. The dirniouivis of the salaries of all the * Great Officers of State must be resulted tb; and • kn-wing this to be the case,•one of the questions they bad to put to themselves was this, whether they were not parties to a gross }rand upon the public, in mak ing those who held such salaries inquirers and judges upon the occasion i In the. Marquis of Laasdown's Committee, there was not one person holding an office, with the exception of -himself. .He wished now to see a Committee so formed as that no person appointed on it should have an interest in making it - a mockery and delusion. • •Let tlitru be chosen either f oat the neutr its or from poutletnen. he cared not which ; but let them not beisitosera. from, those who - • could not be expected -to proseaufte4he task without a prejudice against its sersess.hl The-reduction new proposed was insufficient. The Noble Lord, however, bad conceded one point; he had allowed that there was a difference bet ween the. present Peace Establishment, and that which was voted at the conclusion of the .American war, amounting to seven millions sterling. --'l'he Honourable Member then proceeded to ex press his gratific scion at the communicatiortmade by an illustrious person, whicll he described as of, a na• • titre to give great and general satisfaction—(l/ear, hear.)—.He trusted that it would meet with imitators among all those who were in. the immediate neigh. bourhood of the Illustrious flerson, that it would de scend still lower, to all the Officer; of State, and , • create in them a disposition to go and do likewise. by giving pp something to the thitreases or the times j • —( Nese, heir). —The• Noble Lord had spoken if ar tenth part,. but that was not the proposmoss which. they pidessed to copy ; and he trolled that, Milne 'like the present, Parliament would see the necessity ; • of following such an example strictly to the letter. It did not signify talking of splendour aad monarchy .--(ffear, hear. free Me side). -ran was no enemy to the splendour that•was necessary to surround the Oscine, and he respected Monarchy as the only term of government consistent with civil liberty.- - . It was because the Crown might be endangered by a contrary system that he wished to plant it upon ate, best foundation, in the hearts of the people. It was au the accumulation of gaudy, expensive, and un necessary trappings, that could accomplish this. No- thing was so dignified in times et difficulty as to see the higher classes chew a symppthy.,Widi She lower— • (Hear, hear) —nothing war sergraceful are poverty in • public: men—nothing wakteo-hrahttotable to to see ; those who filled high situatienawldld possessed great opportunities, nitlectiog the. means of amassing wealth and he should say that the Monarchy was strong in proportion as selfishness was selected, and a rigid self-denying economy practised is all branches of the public expenditare— (Leiden' esteemed Awn). Mr. CANNING observed, that front the general tenor of the discussion, argued as it was in almost every point applicable to the immediate questiOn, be bed little expected that the House would have been overwhelmed by the line of argument pursued by:the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ( Mr. Brougham) who' last addressed it. He did not. anticipate that the proposition of• his Noble Friend would have obtained the general acceptation of every part of that House, but be most confess that his impression was, .that the doubt would have beet whether the diminution of establishrnents was not carried lower than was consistent with the true interests of the country.— (Mar. hear.) lie would, unchecked by the recep . ton that the observatioe had met. repeat advisedly, that the impression of that truth was so strong id the • conviction of his Majesty's Government, as to be only overcome by the sense of the peculiar exigency. and by a desire to satisfy the awakened anxieties of the country:on the extent of National Expenditure. It was the evidence of that conviction, he bad a right to presume, accounted for the altered tone of the Gen tlemen on the opposite benches. They bad found it convenient to dismiss from the discussion of that night, all reference to the alarming dangers of a Military Establishment—dangers to be viewed in the double acceptation, as they were described, of an • Immense charge upon ,the finances of the country, 'sad dangerous to • the liberties of the people.— Gito forbid that he should' eoiEr undervalue the dan ger 'of standing ermiifs swollin to an unnecessary magnitude, to Clonttitutiort ! but nu man had that night insinuated the least doubt but that the tenacious apprehensions so circulated On that point were en.: Wily done away. Indeed, the Honourable and. Learned . eventieman (Mr. Brougham) had directed his opposition to totally different grounds: be seemed .dissatisfied with the amonnt of retrenchment in the proposition of bus Noble Friend (Lord Castlereagh). Yet the Right Honourable Gentlemen'( Mr. Tierney) on tic same side of the House had admitted cundidly and fairly. that the proposition of retrenchment eau e.,s by- aa.i'.."0,000 than he, with the most laudable .... • terutiny, had anticipated.—(Hear, hear.) Can. the House doubt that there existed the sincerest disposi tion to meet the difficulties of the pressure by every practicable economy I Do not the estimates in every item evince the reality of that intention I Taking even the question as betw• en the security of the coon , try and the sacrifices to be made to the pressure of the exigency, the former would be found in an inverse ratio. The danger that the Civil Power had most to apprehend, ac:ording to these Estimates, might arise from the need of military aid. 'Passing from that point to the objections mooted against the Con= inittee, he would ask the House, whether'it was pre pared to exclude from Parliament. for to that extent the 'objection against the present Committee. if at all supportable. must lead, all person vrho held respon sible 'offices under the Crown ? For what else could the objection mean, which said that such men were unfit for the service of the House in a Parliamentary Committee ? The Honourable 4 and Learned Gentle man (Mr. Brougham) has said, that it was his ob ject,to diminish the influence of the Crown— (Hear.) him fairly bring forward that original qua Woe. and he would have no objection to go to issue ; but it could have no connection with the object which the House had then in its contemplation. But, allowing for a moment that the application was just. he would contend that the influence of the Crown was is a state of progressive diminution from what that Learned Gentleman would call the best times of the Constitu tion—it had numerically diminished from those days when the Whigs had the monopoly of office—when the Septennial Bill was passed by these hereditary servants of , the Throne. In arguing the present ques tioa, there was no right to assume the increase. How Ihad every other Member who had spoken viewed it ? Only in the view as it went to relieve she country front expenditure, and operated as a gratifica tion to the public solicitude. Thus it was justly ob served 14,y the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Tictoey ), it was not the sum but the sentiment. Then how reconcile that admission with the faction of the Le timed Gentleman ( Mr. Brougham) at the scanty retrenchments of the Officers of State ? Really these objections were not very encouraging to self-sacrifice. Indeed if the Learned Gentleman ( Mr. Brougham). recollecting what has resulted from the proceedings of former Committees, looked for aid iron) these sources rather than for the manifestation ot aympathy, he must be a most sanguine calculator. U it was as a gratification„it would be efficient—. Fee whet,. pianiem emigre pant. With respect to the Committee, it was his opinion that official men were necessary ingredients of the examination it would have to make. During the pendency of that Coin ! mittee, if the Learned Member pleased, he hid a shorter path to his object—it was in his power to offer a specific proposition. . Mr. WILBERFORCEsaid, it would be perfectly tinfeir not to acknowledge that the Prince Regent and his Ministers had 'thews- a disposition to make sacrifices. for which the country ought to be grateful. With respect to the Committee, his Noble Friend had fully detailed its duties and functions—but, when he stated, that its labours might perhaps continue fur one, two, ct three years, be, could not avoid recollect ing. that,a dissolution of Parliament would probably interfere Pith its proceedings, and render them of co effect--.(Near. hear.)-1u his opinion, the great length of time which would be necessary for the completion of it, functions. formed a wry serious ob jection to it. His Right Hon. Friend (Me. Can ning) had said, that it was necessary that of fi cial men should be on the Committee, and yet he at the same time admitted, that, if the Committee were appointed to effect . a diminution of the influence of the Crown, it would tbeo be improper that any official men should be attached to it.. Now, in his opinion, the principle applied equally well to the present case.— When it was made a direct question whether or oat certain offices should exist, did it not clearly affect the influence of the Crown ? Perhaps the influence of the Crown. in Parliament. might be less now than it for-, ;Pell vies—but, .when they took into ccnsideratiou their eau colonial establishments, their great military fote.e, AK. du. it would be found. to have greatly in &caved is other respects. In fact, the Infidence of the Crown met them every where-Land,:if there were i feeling of discontent in tie country, he did not think that the best way of removing it was to increase that influence. He heartily wished that, on this occasion. the House could come to some proposition, approach ing more nearly to agreement and unanimity. He wished, that all parties, Would join in endeavouring to make the Committee efficient. He did not expect that any thing would satisfy the really disaffected ; but be should be sorry, that those who loved the Con stitution, although distress might have soured their temper. should have an opportunity of saying, that such a Committee bad been formed as could produce no useful effect. Sir THOMAS ACLAND thought, that the ob ject of the Committee could not be attained, unless official men, caphble of entering into the details of expenditure; were attached to it—neither did be be lieve it would answer the end proposed, unless same of those who were in the habit of opposing Ministers, and who were accustomed to investigate the expenses of the State. were also engaged in the examination. .—(Hear,hscr.) Lord LASCELLES bad heard, with great satis faction, what had been stated by his Majesty's Mini sters, and be was sure it would be received with the utmost gratification by the country. It might be said, with refereuce to some persons in the country. that fi concession was the parent of demand"—and that the efforts of the Government would not satisfy them—but, with respect. to the great body of the people. the concessions stated. that night would, be was convinced. be highly gratifyiag.—(Barr, hear.) Mr. POISSONBY said, in the present state of dis tress and discontent, expedition in their proceedings was the surest way by which they . conld convince the people that they were intent On • diminishing their burdeiss. He would then ask, which was more likely to arrive at the termipation'of the projected inquiry, I one or two Committees ? He was persuaded that the • fate of Ma ooaat,7um to the.bands et dna Hemet and, to reader I it capable of p the salvation of tbe cowry, it wa s ao. usury, it was bollsprosable, that they dwelt mamba a dater ; minnows to alleviate the burdens of the people as speedily as p - sidle. The Noble Laid bad that night stated • what gave ben (Mr. Poosouby) great pleases. lie bad aciaalatiid dams with we &Oddest of td. Ulastriess Personage, at the bead at the State to contrast his impawits, and cat dal? few things mold produce muter bowie. Tbe Noble Lard bad also stated, that persons Molding aka were willing to gm au a part of dish I otoolutocuts, He approved of this detandeatisa—Uwy walk LONDON. SATURDAY, FEBRUARY 8. 1817. PRICE OF STOCR4 THIS DAY A r TWELVE O'CLOCK : Reduced ESI SS—(Cos. Ina SSII—Coos. for acc. 651 4 per Cent. i9H-5 per Cast. they 97ft Exchequer Bilb, I is. i7s.pr.—lodla bonds, Sls. 325. pre. The proceedings of last night, in the House ofl Commons, will be read with uncommon interest by all classes in the Empire, and we have no hesitation' in as►erting will produce a wonderful and salutary influence. They furnibh practical evidence, of what' some ignorant, not to say designing men, are unveil- ' to believe, that our happy Constitution possesses, is its details, the•means for applying constitutional remedies to every evil that time, accident, or inatten. lion may, at any time, have attached to the admini stration of our public affairs. LordCArrcammom brought forward a statement's , of our Naval and. Military Establishments, and the, reductions that have already taken place and are in progreu in these sources of expence ; and moved for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the public iIICOII3B and,expenditate for the year 1817.1 • The Army, ib 1816, was 149,445 men; in 1817, it is 123,702—reduction . 25,743. Tbe expense . last year, exclusive of Ordnance, was 410,564,000—this year it is 49,280,000.. The Ordnance last year cost 41,696,060--this year it is 41,246,000. Total saving on Army, 41,784,000. Navy, last year, 33,000 mem ; this year. 19,000 redaction, 14.000. It cost fur last year £10,114,000; this year it will be di:6,897,000 saving, 43,717,000. Miscellaneous services in 18:6, A 18,500,000; ditto this 'sir, dl,soo,ooo—saving, set,ooo,ovo. RECAPITULATION. Army saving • - • .11.7 . 84,000 Navy ditto . . . . 5;±. 4 3,,,w0 Ilivisikabous • ' • • 1 . 1, 0 0 . 000 • Total slivillic:4o7 o 4 4"7o • SUPPLY. '• • . _ Am, • . • 41,050,00 n Ceeinilweriat and lbirracb, Great Britain soo,oco Ditto, ditto, Irdaall . . ioOpeo Una irdioarbs • - 1,100,000 Ordelace • . - . 1,246,000 Nan • . . . 6,397,000 Minibuses, Gnat SAWA and Ireland 1,500,000 , • 816,373,000 ' nos it appears that the Anty hat been reduce& [about one sisth—the Navy ahnost one half. The expenses far this year exceed eigkieen mil:kat; 2 , 1 1 lamentable to teU, the country cannot count on he that amount of permanent revenue, after pay;n g ti interest on our debt However, to be sensible of out one great step towards such a remedy as gir; rate our maladies: and Nlinisters ar? enoth ;0 rr tor fairly :eying about the kof ilcf.;rru the work of Reform," for if tire rumple sc:Lri PaiNce REGENT and his Nlinisters be fullowed !.p it Otte t tu be, we 5114i1 have a practical. au and a radicil Reform. The PRINCE Reoeur has intimated to Parll we ., shrough his Ministers, his intention to surrendei fifth part of that portion of his income wtlic.l i• netted with his own personal service. Tie aniq;! of this fifth is calculated at Fay Thons.nd a year. Ministers themselves have also mote 0: intimated their intention to follow the noble ex airy that has been given by the PRINCE R cur ; and it z; proposed Committee shall faithfully discharge thse duty, in recommending the sJppres.ion of all nit Usury offices—and this be followed by the aboliti of ail sinecures, the saving to the natiJn will be su as will be soon found to operate beaeiiciAlly :a storing vigour and health to enty thing cs,nucte with our political existence. Let is hope that !t nisters will in no wise damp the cheering rov e , they have held out to the coontry by the mockery . a ballot rendered nmatory by previously prepar: lists—let them not fe.ir that they will lose in cc. fidence or in the power to carry any good the sure, by themselves yielding confidence ; an all means let them convince the nation of t!. own sincerity by Lot placing rap ptesoit whatev::i. the Committee, the utility of whin:: place is d; puted—this is Mr. 13113U011ANell idea,- and it is q core _t. We would 'ae for going even fArdtt. fur excluding every individual who receives an salary whatever, but giving to the Committee • power to hear and examine them all. • From the few rental ks which we have acre 1, Readers will easily perceive that the measures posed, so far as they gro, have our hearty c lOC,/ rence. But will they meet all the demanJs of el present exigencies ? We say no ; and that another year shall pan Ministers will see that nr more is wanted. The fact is this—the whole zoi try (ekceiting the money-holders) is in such a st of poverty that the people cannot purchase, as t would in other circumstances, the articles which r duties—hence a defic•cn:y of rover ue ; nor will n taxes supply the want—lor the people can only To their income. In one word, the people mart made richer before health and vigour can be rtr, red to the State ; but how ie this to be edected By reducing the demands made upon them - The utmost that can be effected by al: the rat sues stated by LsT,l CAbTLitittACT, lessdj the necessity fur new ik , releni. -Do ii• t deceive selves : you cats lay no new bur.en on the p.•.' that will produce you a single shilling of ; „.1,! :; , the revenue. The i.tct me and wages of eve! vcl except the Stocklioldcrs have been reduced, an.t have nobly 'hewn a disposition to reduce }ma ct but you must. extend this du ough all the rantitictni of every department—even your lowest Exci,etn• your Soliieri, anJ your Sailors, should tie p in some propoitioa to tl:e remuneration whit:: other employ meats eat obtain for their labour. N Mill thus eff•ct your deliiermice. You twist r e , the legal rate of intert•st, or fiutiout some whet nw av effectual to lessen the interest of the neiutiali: , ' To mince mattersw, ut.d be roily. —to put a ba:.lii over our eyes woulJ Lc madness. We have received the Pails PApers of Tues.!. The foltowing extracts hum thr!ri c•onp!ett-iy con . : diet the report which errs put in circul .'.::r')! Munting Paper, of the KING'S &atm PARIS. FEBRUARY 4. Yesterday the Myth, perfectly recovered from kis zttatil the gout, walked with the greatest ea:o aid irpur. The Duke of ltscn[t.t►u and M. l' . tr.•2:a s , the :ixtvl tire Seals, transacted lothness with his Ni AI: I 'I. In the evening. Noi MAI tsTir rrcrith The proceedings in the Ch ca n ners are quite of interest to the Enlish Ite.i.lot —they Are v-• of a food nature. The funds have got up agAio to 6), and f(a:•:J steadily above it. It is stated, in a private c: - Inmotsication from F deans, that a serious dkturhance had ocrultd t.. in consequence of an embark itiun of tern fr;tn port. The oppos',tion of the people was El that the military were obliged to be called is i number of persons were killed, and a great a' wounded. New York Papers to the IS,h linuary 1 I rived. They announce the tecrio of wt•..;i &cm St: Thomas's that the Paulo: Atm order nerd MacsifititiNk Lad cotnpietely &Jetted the t lists in three t engagements, the Le. of Is was at Unari. ] • *The Dtbates in Congress come down to the 1 : but they present nothing of importance. At a General Court held at the East India House 7 ..terZr i l Address was unattitorivaly voted to the Prince Refer', 0 late daring outrage against his perison, and ordered io anted by the Chairman, Deputy Chairman, Court of D Meyer (Mr. RANDLE JACKSON), Seconder (Mr such Proprietors who may think proper to attend. LONDON: Printe.l by. Lvvrt. Katerl Picket-Out. rublubed thrre, and at tilt 3tar•Office, EcnoioAtv. ~c. ~~a. to the ensnare, bit be thought the steam ought is go farther than the Noble lisrd had repraented. There was no person receiving considerable 'emoluments who ought net to make a rest acrifice--aod.be spoke with confidence on this point, be cause be was an interested person.—(Hes,, kers The reduc tion proposed appeared t. I him not to be tuthcient—but he de. tired from roman s sacrifice be would not make himself. There watt no man whose private means could len afford ex tredve ax. crakes, but still he would make them with pleasine.—(Hear, /)—it would be in rad.) for him to a.ay that any sacrifice ' could offer would greatly benefit the etmary ; hut, if ohat he would cheerfully do was followed tip, in the same al): tit, by others. it would at least tend to alleviate the public burdens. It would ,be sides, teach this great lesson to the people,that those who derived anolomars under the Crown, were not that set of robbers and plunderers which malignant men bad stated them to be. but would • thew them, on the contrary, that when the public exigency re. quiredit, they would chert fully vep forward to relieve their dis tresses. • The NcibirLord had said. that . the Income fax was a fair criterion to go by —and that a reduction of 19 pee cent. was eeMelent. He (Mr. Ponsonby) thought the value of money a better criteria...-shad, he believed. ;e4O would do more now, than mfioo four years ago. He should therefore propose, that the salaries to be paid la future should be regulated by the rela tive vibe of money, four years since and now. He begged to be understood, la saying this, that he was aware of many situa tions held by ramie unde r • Government, the emoluments of which were a anal% that it would be cruel to take any thing from deem. His idea was, to make such a rate of reduction on the salaries of persons getting beyond a certain sum, es would rove to all classes, that the House of Commons did not tax the people for their own benefit. but were ready to sacrifice their comforts for the general gnncl of society—(Xeer). Mr. GOOCH declared his conviction of thsnecasity of Re trenchment, but he considered the statements made by the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) to be perfectly satisfactory. Mr. CALCRAFT said, that nothing could be more absurd than for Plasesien to decide upon the propriety of continuing or &hotbeds* their own places. Ihe Noble Lord (Laactlies) tn speaking of agjecatkins from Members of the Committee, ought to knowittat they would not have to complain of any obstruc tion thrown in the way of their Investigations, or any thing of that art; quite the contrary.tvery facility relative to those mat ten would be afforded to them ; the only cause of complaint which any of them amid have, is being overborne by majorities. This grievance neither the Noble Lord nor the House could remedy While Strangers were shut out for the division, Sir JOHN SEBRIGH I said, that be bad beenainted by the present Ministers a Member of the Civil List Committee, but they refused the peaces necessary to render it effective, soil It was, in fat, a gross delusion upon the Public ; that he consi dered the present Committee to be also a gross imposition, and that be would not put his foot into a Committee SO constituted, as by so doing be should be lending his alto mislead and delude the Public; that be was as hostile as any man to th e factious and inbignided part of the community, but that now wai the time when it became the imperative duty of all independent Members and Country Gentlemen to come forward and to sup port such measures as would conciliate and give satisfaction to the rational and moderate pan of the community. He therefore declined tabus Member. Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that the present Committee had the powers which habeas refused to the Civil List Committee. Sir 1. SEINUGHT.-1 am aware of that, but I owe it to my country not to cootrihste to practice a pea acid ecandaloos dela lion upon the cossity. Lord MORPETH said, that his heath would not allow of his regular attendance; but that even it that objection did not exist, be thought that the Constitution of the Committee was such as not to merit the confidence of the Country. The House divided—For Mindsets, sio-sAgainst than, 117. Majority 99. During the exclusion from the Gallery, the House divided on the question that Mr. ThettAT me be a Member of the Cons Imbue' instead of. Lord Bine isto-oyur Lord analog, 1711—Er Mr. Tr.mayne lid—Majesty eft Another division . took place or Mr. Tat MATHS being pro posed instead of Mr. Hossisson.i-For Mr. Huskisson, 180— Per Mr. 'fremayne, 199-.-Majority 81. Stringers were not site:studs admitted to the Gallery, but the falating were finally speed to be the names of tbc Coalmine Lord Castlereagh, Mr. N. Careen The Chancidlor of the Exchequer, M. Davis Gaddy, Mr. Pestionby, Sir Thomas Ackland, Mr. Peel, • Mr.'Cart wriest, Mr. 'Orem . Lard Clive, Sir iiiha t =s, Par-agach, . . • Mr. F Lord Binning. Mr. F. halals, Sir George Link, Mr. H. Dania, Lord Stanley. Mr. Heddistel, Mr. Littletoo. Mr. Treolawfai, [Adjourned at two o'clock. ' THE EVENING STALL