Star. — London, England, 1810-01-27 00:00:00

wanted nothing for that purpose, which the Right S onourable Gentleman's Papers could furnish. To be sure the House might want the Papers, to give Clem the aggravations of his Majesty's Ministers' con duct (hear, hear) ; but in order to chew that the House wanted nothing that the Papers could furnish, it was only necessary to look to the fate of the Expe dition (hear, hear) to our lost army, and to the dis graceful abandonment of the Island of Walcheren— (hear, hear.) The assertion, that there was no prece dent to be found for this lamentable event, was but too true. Search the annals of the military history of the country, and there was hardly to be foul an instance of failure, where so much blame was not to be attached somewhere. lie would say there was no direct blame to be attached to the Right Honour able Gentleman. The greatest possible failure might follow without blame to any body. But such a failure as this, without being too presumptuous, or without entering into details, he believed was never heard of before. Ministers, with their eyes open, march, with unfeeling ferociousness, the army to its destruction—to its grave—to the deadly marshes of Walcheren to peri sh.—to go out like a candle in a vault.— (Hear, hear.)—There was a total failure in accom plishing the object for which it was sent out, and it was enough for the House to warrant Inquiry. For his own part, he was at a loss to conceive how it was possible for a military expedition to accomplish the destruction of a fleet.—( Hear, Hear.)—lt was cer tainly an object very foreign from their ordinary duty. In fact, when the House should come to examine into the details, it would be found to be an expedition which was impossible to succeed.— (Hear, hear.) — On tile subject of papers, he observed, that Ministers had offered -no efficient excuse. The Speech of his Majesty having promised their speedy production, the Right Hon. Gentleman ought to have laid them on the table the firs: day of the Session. He con cluded by supporting the Motion. Mr. PONSONBY contended that nothing could he more insulting to the House and the country, than the ses of Ministers, that they did hot skink lay the papers before the House. It was he ever heard that on any great national the present, the House of Commons of -ere hound to wait upon the pleasure of Ministers. (h'ear, hear.) The Right 'Gentleman said, that it would be prepos ue the inquiry on the then information souse ; but he contended, that the con- House, indeed, would be preposterous if probe a transaction which had tarnished the British army, and shed disgrace on Bonaparte had boasted that the Genius night his battles in Holland, but, alas ! .t the Damon of England won his victory o the distraction of her Councils, and the cabals of her Ministers, did he owe his focr, 'l:ar.) The Right Hon. Gentleman delicacy of the other I\ lembers of the Cabi ;sing the Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh) :ouncils, until such a measure could be recon. !Voile Lord's feelings. He concluded by that, if the House took the advice of the arable Gentleman, on this occasion, he would be found malignant men enough, even in to say, that the greatcet calamity, and the that ever fell on the people, was to be 'vin es House of Commons. (hear, hear.) .PHENS, after a few words, said he for the previous question. IJEL ROMILLY was convinced that should be lost in instituting an Inquiry. )t conceive how a vote for Inquiry could :hrow a blame on Ministers, unless they :ed themselves, that the result of the lo be to make their guilt evident. He at °Teat measure, the calamities of the last ) the want of inquiry, which last year had i - ilpunity of Ministers. He considered the responsible for all the treasures squandered, loon wasted in those disastrous expeditions, not have taken place but for their mis alence in Ministers. The only way they IEI their bounden duty towards the oa institute an Inquiry ; their own honour it should be as speedy as possible, and sere would be an Inquiry. .EY FOSTER spoke against the motion. ROSVENOR could not give a silent occasion ; for the honour of the proles :li he belonged, for that of the General inded the Expedition, and who was anxi speedy and minute Inquiry, he should motion. ;E POPHAM did not at first intend to ;entiments ; but after what had fallen from '-neral, he thought himself bound to de hor;our of the Navy, and for that of the miral employed in that service, he was as my one for an Inquiry. .E, impressed with the idea, that for the the House an Inquiry should be as speedy would vote for the motion ; but without intention against Ministers, whose merits tar.ces he thought greatly and unjustly TH thought the Inquiry would come inday. RGE. WAR RENDER would vote for the readier, as the Right Honourable trable Gentlemen opposite had stated, that ttempt to effect their removal from office. ,NNIS BROWNE thottght the question Touse to be, whether it should decide then y? He plainly saw it was the object of •men opposite to remove Ministers. VEY thought there was cause of com .where. ,BERFORCE said, lie had been thirty ember of that House, but in all that time Ind the Ministers of the day friendly to ley always Gpposed motions for that put directly or indirectly. He should be ex -4 to see Ministers spew a disposition to wishes of the country. He would have Is at once to come to Inquiry, when they iurmurings out of doors. When he reflected \umber of Expeditions that had sailed from • in the course of the last few years, scarcely ich was successful, he was not one of those stigmatize any set of Ministers because failed. The Expedition to the Scheldt bad most egregiously failed of realizing more insulting to the frivolous excuses of it neressary to lay the the first time he eve: question, like the pri England were bowl the King's Ministc HonourableGentlen terous to vote the before the House ; duct of the House, i they did not probe the lustre of the 13;- the country. Bona of France fought I he feared that the for him. To the d' disgraceful cabals success ! Herr, ridiculed the delicacy 3tet in dismissing th from their Councils tiled to Mat Nolle 1. observing, that, if Right Honourable feared there would b, this countu, to say vilest disgrace Mat rt tented by such a flout Mr. STEPHEN should vote for the Sir-SAMUEL 1 not one hour shoul, He could not conce be said to throw a were convinced the] quiry would be to tributed, in great n campaign to the wa insured the impunit House was respon sit for all the blood wal which would not ha placed confidence i had left to fulfil the tion was, to institm required that it she b_t trusted there wo Mr.LES LEY FC General GROS' vote on the occasi , sion to which he be who commanded a ous for a speedy vote for the motion. Sir HOME POI deliver his sentimen the Hon. General, Clare, for the hor.ou Gallant Admiral er anxious as any one Mr. EYRE, imF honour of the Ho] as possible, would any hostile intentio in many instances undervalued. Mr. SMITH th better on Monday. Sir GEORGE I; the Question the rc and Honourable Gi it was an attempt tc Mr. DENNIS ] before the House to or on Monday ? 11 the Gentlemen opp Mr. HARVEY plaint somewhere. Mr. WILBERF years a Member of he never found the Inquiry ; they alwl pose, either direct) tremely glad to see • meet the wishes c them anxious at on found murmurings on the number of this country in the c one of which was s who would stigma hey had failed. ertAinlY had M 951 noble Lord who was t reagh) had behaved well in saying, he was ready to I come forward in defence of that measure, whenever the House should think fit to make it a subject of in quiry, though that Noble Lord, as well as his late Col league (Mr. Canning) were not in office, still that House and the Country held them responsible. As to putting off the Motion of the Noble Lord till after Monday he did not like the idea. He would rather secure the object then—(Hear, hear.) If the Gentlemen did not fear Inquiry, then alone was the time. (Hear, /sear.) As to the mode of Inquiry it could be of little consequence whether it was at the Bar of that House or in a Committee. If Inquiry had not been determined against, he trusted that nouse would in stitute it immediately. He approved of the Motion of the Noble Lord. Mr. BOYLE said, the Motion was not to inquire into the Expedition to the Scheldt, it was to appoint a Committee of the whole House for that purpose.— If the House did not wish to bring itself into ridicule and contempt—(considerable cheering from the Opposition benches) —it would consider of the consequences of the Motion if carried. He assured the House he had not been instructed by his constituents how he was to vote. (if laugh.) Sir WM. CURTIS rose to give his support and most hearty concurrence to the Motion of the Noble Lord.—(lfrar, hear,- from the Opposition Side of the House.) —He went to that House to do his duty, and he thought Inquiry necesiary.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. SUMNER said he must have some ground for an Inquiry before he approved of such a Motion as that before the House. Mr. LASCELLES spoke to the same effect. Mr. HENRY MARTIN approved ache Motion. Mr. BOYLE explained. Mr. W. SMITH.—He, as well as 19 out of 20 in the country, did not want Papers to enable him to judge of the Question ; why, therefore wait till Mon day ? If they did not then decide, the Question would be put off to a time that would never arrive. —(Hear, hear.) Mr. TIERNEY thought there never was a Mo tion that involved more important consequences be fore that House. The Right Honourahlz Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that the Motion vas the effect of the disappointment and chagrin in conse quence of having been out-voted. The Right Ho nourable Gentleman spoke in a very humble tone the other night ; but having found himself in a pretty gond majority, he talked loud, and with a bold and stamping manner, demanded the support of that House as his Majesty's Minister. To colour the opposition Ito the Motion, precedent had been quoted—the Bu• enos Ayres expedition. No Inquiry was necessary, as the officers had been broke in another place, which precluded the necessity. The House had been told that it was prejudging the question. \Vas it necessary to have Papers to tell him that there was calamity As to what was said in the King's Speech about pro ducing Papers, he did not believe a word of it. It was ere of the old tricks. If the question were put off till Monday se'nnight, he would tell the House what would then happen ; that would be a motion for pa pers, then another motion for papers to explain those previously produced ; and so on till the end of the Session. He thought the question, as had been said, to bu ole on which no papers that would be produ ced in that House could throw any light. His Ma jesty had distinctly avowed, that he has no fault to find with his Commanders or Officers belonging to that Expedition. Well, then, if there were fault, as there certainly was, it must be that of those who planned it. As to the mode in which the Inquiry ought to be carried on, he would be content with nothing but examination at the bar of that House, in the face of the Public—{ Hear, hear, hear.) He wanted that the confidence of the country should be restored, he would say, if it were not disorderly, se cured to that House. It certainly was shaken, and examination only was wanted. The excuses for op posing the motion were flimsy and must be seen through by the public. The papers, the much-boasted of papers, he s lid, were kept back as a colts de re serve. He hoped to GOD that the Motion of the Noble Lord would succeed ; the previous question, if car ried, would put off Inquiry altogether, and he sin cerely hoped that the authors of calamities and dis graces would be brought to condign punishments►► Mr. WILBERFORCE explained. Lord NEWARK approved of the Motion of the ;Noble Lord. Mr. GOOCH was friendly to Inquiry, but thought the present motion premature, and therefore he should vote for the previous question. Mr. CANNING declared his conviction that In quiry was necessary, but he did not sec that the mode cuggested by the Noble Lord was proper, and would therclore support the previous question. Mr. PATTESON moved that the Debate be ad journed to Monday sc'nnight. The Motion being put from the-Chair, Mr. PONSON BY rose, and said that he felt persua ded that the Motion originated in the Minister, who telt that he would be in a minority, and wished to gain time. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.— " To spew the Right Hon. Gentleman that he is mis taken, 1 shall give a negative to the Motion." Strangers were then ordered to withdraw.—When the gallery was' cleared, we understand Mr. PATTE SON's Motion was negatived without a division. The House then divided on the previous question, For the previous question, Ayes 186—Noe. 195 Majority against Ministers 9.—The Committee was then appointed for Friday next. Adjourned at Half past One, until Monday next. HOUSE OF LORDS, JAN. 9.6. Upon the motion of Lord LIVERPOOL it was resolved to appuint a Committee to eximine into the state of the House, with a view to its being properly ventilated. His Lordship then rose to make his promised Mo tion for the Thanks of the House to Lord Welling ton, on his victory at Talavera. The subject he was about to have the honour of proposing was one, upon which it was peculiarly desirable to have the cordial and unanimous concurrence of their Lordships, but he could not repress a very painful apprehension, that from what passed on a former night, some difficulties would be thrown in the way of that unanimity. He must, however, endeavour to correct a mistake which some Noble Lords appeared to be under, respecting he had the honour to give notice. Whatever differ ence of opinion might exist with respect to the general issue or conduct of, the campaign, those differences were wholly unconnected with the object immediately under consideration, which was simply and distinctly the victory at Talavera, for a victory, and one of the mist splendid in character it must undoubtedly be re garded by all Europe; and though the consequences have not been adequate to the glory of that exploit, it was yet accompanied with circumstancesof the utmost importance to our military fame, and the advan tage of our Allies both in Spain and -Portugal. This was amply testified by the Governments of both those countries, which bore witness to the indisputable fact that a British force not exceeding 20,000 men sus , tained and defeated the impetuous and repeated as- ' saults of 50,000 of the enemy, and compelled them ultimately to retreat with the loss of a considerable portion of their artillery. Nor could it ever fairly be ascribed to the English General, that he had made an improvident disposition of his troops. They did indeed sustain the whole force of the enemy's assaults, but to the valour and firmness which they displayed it was owing that the enemy were baffled. A refer ence had been made to the subject of the thanks of that House on the occasion of Sir John Stuart's vic tory at Maida, and he could not help considering it as having a material appositeness to the present ques tion. The gallant Commander in Calabria had im mediately in view two objects, the relief of the gar rison at Caieta, and the security of the inhabitants of the country. In neither of these was he ultimately successful. But although not only in reference to the pclicy or prudence of this exploit, but the general conduct of the campaign in Italy, much doubt was entertained ; yet when the noble Baron opposite moved for the thanks of that House to Sir John Stuart on that occasion, they were promptly and cordially conceded even by those who were least disposed to applaud that gallant General. And he earnestly and solemnly conjured their Lordships to reflect how important it was, especially at this time, duly to ap preciate and honourably to distinguish exalted mili tary virtue. In that country with whose stupendous power we were now contending, every thing had been overborne by the military establishment. The Church, the Law, all civil and social institutions had been sacrificed to that. Happily, indeed, with us, our military strength and military glory derived its hest support in the generous accord and approbation of the public, and he again besought their Lordships to render with cordial unanimity the signal honour of their assent to the Motion, which he should now pre sent to them. He then moved, that the Thanks of this House be presented to Lord Viscount Welling ton and the Officers and men under his command, for the glorious victory obtained by them, in conjunction with our Spanish Allies, over the combined armies of France, at Talavera. Upon the motion being put from the Woolsack, The Earl oaf SUFFOLK rose. He said it was with great regret that as a military man, he found it impossible for him to concur in the motion of the Noble Secretary. He could never assent to the pro- priety of bestowing the Thanks of that House except upon occasions of exploits unequivocally glorious and advantageous to the country. This he could not dis cover in the subject of the motion now before their Lordships. He could by no means call that a vic tory or a triumph which to his view presented nothing but eventful defeat and disgrace ; nor could he ac cept of the boasted capture of a few pieces of cannon, as a counterpoise for the loss of a multitude of priso ners, and the whole of our sick and wounded soldiers being left to the mercy of the enemy. Lord GROSVENOR expressed a reluctance in opposing the Motion of the Noble Secretary, in which he was actuated by no motive of disesteem for the Noble General who was the object of it ; but because he did not consider the occasion to be such as could properly call forth so signal a mark of distinction. Indeed, in his view of the subject generally of that House's thanks, he thought they were too frequently called forth. He likewise disapproved of the readi ness with which the peerage was of late bestowed, because it led directly to a very alarming constitu tional abuse. The title to a seat in that House was often bestowed upon a person who was not possessed of a fortune fit to maintain it with its due and inde pendent dignity. The consequence was, that, in time, he or his successor became dependent on the Crown. Some occasions, undoubtedly, there were, on which neither honours nor emoluments could be too largely bestowed. Such was the case of the great Duke of Marlborough, and of the no less great Lord Nelson. He could not consider the present an instance of this kind, and therefore must withhold his support from the Motion. Lord MOUNT JOY expressed the diffidence which his inexperience felt . in addressing their Lordships on the present occasion, especially as he perceived op posed to him a Noble Lord (Grey) who would not fail to apply any inadvertence he might commit to his disadvantage. He could not, however, refrain from the expression of his great surprise that any per son should be found, either within their Lordships' walls, or without them, who could, for one moment, hesitate to acknowledge the splendour of that glorious victory which their Lordships were now called upon to proclaim. Could their Lordships forget the hard ships and privations under which that victory was achieved ?—a victory in which the Noble Comman der had crowned and overshadowed himself with never-fading laurels. His Lordship concluded a very animated speech with his hearty assent to the motion. Earl GREY.—If it were true, as the Noble Lord (Mountjoy ) stated, that the battle of Talavera was crowned with success, still he (Earl Grey), must op pose a systemsahich raised Commanders to the rank of heroes, merely for the efforts of rashness. He did not mean to deny that there was, in this case, the appearance of victory ; but, did this battle, for which the House was to vote its thanks, bear any marks of a great and decisive victory ? He denied, however, that it was entitled to the highest honour which that House could render. Something had been said in allu sion to the battle of Maida ; there was no comparison t6the point ; the battle of Maida surpassed in its effects the battle of Talavera; since the latter did not arrest the progress of the enemy, who retired from it in com plete order. Nor did we make any prisoners at the time. Cannon was said, indeed to have been taken ; but the capture of cannon held forth a disputable proof of victory ; unless we knew the circumstances in which the cam% wu talien. Two days after the battle 'of rhaiveri, the British army. Wag comp e ll ed pitately to retreat ; the consequences beir.g disastrous, I must look upon it," said Earl C . as a great national disaster !" I nstea d of thee 4 outnumbering us, as it was repre sente d to lieve" we anal our allies outnumbered the enemy. i„ .1 2 was not rendered to the Spaniard s . W ton ee to the Spanish account of the battl e , and fourd4:,- of the Spaniards killed or wound e d i n i t , it wa s than useles to assert, that they bore no efficiert,' ti c c e ip t a h t is i i on o i ff n er t e4 the f to ate th o o f se th wh ed o a f y o . ug N h o t t w o i n t l h y v' precipitate were the retrograde steps o f our 4(l''- 1 that Lord Wellington even aband one d t h e under the command of Sir Robert Wil son. Wellington also failed to secure t h e fl an; rear of his army, on the result of t h e 1 3 el,. Talavera. Failing in his object, h e ati o e his skit to the humanity of their foes, w h o advancing on them ; indeed, there we r e none of , legitimate consequences of victory, s uc h as t: turing prisoners, and obtaining posse ss i on of magazines of the enemy. Lord W e llington s s it fought a battle ; but it was the least of merits, ti r .: it ) s ti . pea) , estimating the military character, th a t o f , ins battles. Equally censurable was Lord ton's position at Badajos. ,He (Earl Grey), did': dividually, regret his present painful task. Note , standing that, he thought Lord Wellington aii and honourable man, an oaicer of great spirit, s was imprudent iu his dispositions, and, he was was now in the most perilous situation. Earl G. concluded by censuring, freely and strongly, t h e nu ner in whith Ministers had promulgated the ne ws the battle of Talavera ;...which had originally prod u , nothing but exultation, while, ultimately, it et c ;,. nothing but indignation. Marquis WELLESLEY now rose. Agitated he felt by private feelings and public duty, he not avoid the delivery of his sentiments. Forei . Courts had entrusted his Noble Brother with a tit) only short of Royal ; 'and, whatever the N, Earl opposite might think the Spanish people did view the victory of Talavera as mean or trivia When Lord Wellington went out, the eat was not only in possession of the North of P. tugal, but also menaced Lisbon. The steps of, Nobleßrother were able and decisive : he first che ed the advances of General Victor. General Cu. invited Lord Wellington to co-operate with him, at head of 38000 troops, in eel:iling the corps comma , ' by Victor. Supposing his Noble Brother had ref such co-operation, had taken upon himself to su , .. the conduct of General Cuesta, the bravery and I triotism of the Spanish people, and the superintend, management of the Spanish Junta ? Lord Wellia ton had, he would say, acted with judgment, as as with. energy ; and, acting in that manner, he saved both Spain and Portugal. As to the battle . Talavera, it was a fact, but not generally uno stood as such, that General Venegas was to ha taken an assigned position un the 22d, but, ow', to some interveation which he could not expla that Officer's march was suddenly counterman. by the Supreme Junta, and he did not reach post till the 29th. It was not for him to acco.. for these things ; we could not expect Spain be herself at once ; the Cortes must save her. Yet the battle of Talavera did much for Spain ; t resulted in repelling the enemy, and was felt b France "as a deep wound !" Except there had . fought that battle, the enemy would have overrun southern Provinces of Spain, or made an irrupt' into Portugal. France was from that time limited military operations, both against Portugal and S. Lord \Vellington's objects were, to arrest the fu progress of the French arms in Spain, and especiall to exert himself for the Protection of Portugal. his Noble Brother bad done. Portugal had been sentially assisted by the battle of Talavera ; for .• army was now in such a state, that, joined with British, it might be successfully opposed to anyfor • which the enemy should employ against her. IL Noble Brother asked for their Lordships Thanks, e he deserved those Thanks as much as any Co. , mender who had acquired them by his own valour or meritoriously inherited them through the valour his ancestors. Earl- HARROWBY rising, adverted to one Earl Grey's observations : when an explanation • given by the latter Nobleman. The LORD CHANCELLOR being now a" :o put the Motion before the House, Lord GRENVILLE interposed. His Lordshi, regretted the refusal of the information moved for b his noble Noble Friend (Earl Grey) on the last night. Never was such information more desirable than a' this moment. After all that had been said as to battle of Talavera, the merits of a General were ne confined to the day of battle. It was an adniirablecharac teristic of the great Marshal Turenne, and one whi he felt at his heart, that he was said to be avaricious' the blood of his soldiers. The victoryofTalaver.a was v a e r r e te p d u l o s en, therlcit m a i v s c i c o t n o d r u y c . t o H f His n o i s r t d e s r h s i , p e s s t p i l e l c a i ally ter what had just transpired from the Noble Mar quis ( Wellesley), in confiding the British armies t.. the Spanish Junta. He also suspected the success' any'future co-operation between the forces of Gre' Britain and those of Portugal. The Lord CHANCELLOR now put the Vote Thanks to Lord Wellington, which was carried wi" out a division ; as were also the Thanks of the Ho to the Officers and Men serving under the co of Lord Wellington, at the battle of Talavera. The House adjourned till Monday ; for which ela I there is notice of a motion for a vote of thanks to Ad. miral Lord Gambier, on account of the attack OM enemy's fleet in Basque A requisition has been signed for the purpose al calling a public meeting of the Electors of Westraili ster, to consider the propriety of a Petition to tit! KING, and another to the House of Commons, on* subject of a Reform in the State of the Represent" tion of the People in Parliament. The name of the Hon. THOMAS BRAND Was ted in the List of the Minority yesterday. Notice has been given to the holders of bills on/ Ordnance (Nice, that they will be paid °Atheist February, ?EVE Y iNE OF STOCKS 'l. IPA Y A'l' 01\ , o'CL S per Cent. Cons. for money, 68+—acc. 66f. Reduced 681-omnium 2 prem. LONDON : Printed and published by LEVEL KENT, of co terbury-Place, Lambeth at the STAR-Orme, No. 1, ca re r street. Published also at the STait-Orttet,Ternple liars ? a • d