Star. — London, England, 1831-08-17 00:00:00

r *ft f e t is no getting over this. Your optimists and chand rt .s!.u, politicians may endeavour to explain this .% ay, and will tell you that the Belgians wanted tieacrala. and wanted magazines, and wanted a con. rested plan, and much more of such stuff as this.— I; it let me reply to these men of bad memories, that in '. ptember. 1830, the battle was far more unequal, and ver the people were victorious and the Dutch were defew.J. Why, th,n, they Iv( merely no generals, but they had n • Aoldias —no nr7::s — no ammunition and yet their cou rage, patri risen. Wear. enthusiasm, were such that they a:amounted every obstacle, and put the Prince Frederick . d hie 6 4 Gros Bafa;rens" to flight ! Why was this? Pecans: thee all fought fur one eject ; beesuse that object • national. popular, and in itself sufficient to excite the • il and tin rlntity of the whole population. 13 It in .41.7,u5t, : :he paction of the question is changed. It is not lie • v. but a protocol king who calla them to arras—and i haat snacking his misfortunes, I may ask Prince Leopold if hr has not felt sadly Cupp:doted ? IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. 1101:SR OF LORDS. A rainy IG. Lord SKELNIERSDALE presented a petition from the ti Trovets of the Liverpool turnpike reads, praying to h: heard by counsel s;ninst the Liverpool and Warrington [ 4 : mil.rmd bill. DAN RIMPTCY. The Lord CFIAMALLOIt. for the accomnlndation of his noble friend (Lord Eldon) discharged the order for the second reading of the hankrup7cy bill, which stood for Fri day, and fined it for Friday week. BELGIUM. The Berl of Or FORD expressed a hope that the noble earl at the head of his Majesty's government would be dis. posed to answer two or three questions in a manner which might justify the expectation the noble earl himself had held out to the country. The present state of public affairs and especially the news which had lately arrived from France, rendered his application to the noble earl a matter of importance. The question he intended to put had relit axon to the oceapatien of Belgium by the French army, and the fortresses which had been consigned by the four great powers to destruction. In alluding to those topics, he could rot avoid adverting to what passed on a former oecasion, wizen the noble earl stated that France was called upon to resist a breach of the armistice between Holland and Bel gium. That armistice he really believed, had never ex isttd. (Hear, hear,) Curious papers had been lately published in France—papers which bore an official vamp. Tney putpartcd to be the speeches of French Minis:ers. .mt: were completely at variance with the statements made In that ins :se by his Majesty's government. The noble earl then ale, rted :o the diplomatic proceedings which had taker ).I..ce on the affairs of Bollard and Bel;ium, and drew an in .- entice that ro armistice had been made : that, be the eaSe how it might, and the French in Belgium, it was necessary to ask the 'table cad what had brought them there ? They piglit to know on what ground the French army was In Bel. The rolae earl had said when the Dutch troops % u:Alrese to ,he miter side of the frontier it was not the in. :c , :tain of t:.e French to remain in Belgium; he wished, 'b.:sabre, to elk whether they would withdraw when that object was accotnplished. Another question was of great itap.wtance to this country, as it had relation to the trade of tax 11..Itic. He alluded to the fortresses which had lean r.iseti at the expense of ilolland. and were ordered to he de molished witlituir any refererce to Holland on thy soltjoct. although the Dutch govet omen* had the greaten to e consulted. Ht wished to hear from the roll! earl %. hat :or. trains were to be dismantled ? Earl G REY.— loy lords, I rise to protest against the in . eilivenience of this course of proceeding. I must protest still more strongly against the unprecedented manner in ...etch the noble esti has conducted himself towards me in n y official &orlon. lam here as minister of the crown to answer questions ; but it has been usual in courtesy from one veer to another, if hr means to bring forward any motion, tortodo it without notice. Here, my lords, there is no no. rce. The noble earl, in asking questions, has gone through is statement of all that has occurred in Belgium ;—a state. r:ent, I must say, in complete error ; but into that state ment I will ant follow the noble earl, He wishes to know for what purpz'se the French army entered Belgium. It was to repel the invasion of Belgium by the Dutch. It was also to support that armistice which the 'table earl says never was en tered into, but which I say was indefinitely established. It was to repel an attack and maintain the armistice. He asks me whether the French army will return when the object is • accomplished. My lords, Is it for me to state what others will do, or what they will not do. I will not pledge myself ; but if the noble earl asks me whether this country has a right to expect the French army will retreat after that object is accomplished—l say we have the best right to ex pect it. (Hear, hear.) Now, with respect to speeches made it another country, I would ask the noble lord whether he thinks any explanation upon a subject of that nature can be reasonably required. Suppose it happens that a Minister's speech in France having been published, contained declan tlat:S contrary to what this country has a right to expect. I pot it hypothetically, and I ask whether it can furnish a state of things upon which a minister can ground inquiry ? The last question put by the noble earl applied to the for tresses, and he asks what fortresses are to be dismantled ? I answer, nothisig has yet been determined. All that is re solved upon is, Ant certain fortresses should be dismantled, hue what these fortresses are, to this hour is nut d e t erm i ne d --as to any other question r elating to this subject, I have nu answer to give. The Earl of ORFORD said a few words in explanation. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he derived gree satisfscsion nom the renewed assurances that the occu. is. .on of B.:lgium would not last longer than the re-entry f the Dutch into their own territory. That assurance would make him refrain from asking any question at that time. He thro.ght the noble Earl had done right in calling the often. tam of the hoes, and the country to the difference between the declarations of ministers in that house and the speeches of the ministers of France. It would convince the noble 1• al at the lead of the government, that they were alive to it responsibili y as to declarations which might not be wirtatt4.:l by the dec:arations of foreign powers. The Dike of WELLINGTON said his noble friend ap pear d to lee: anxiety in consequence of what appealed .n public pa; ors ; but nothing that ministers could say in Pals, or in that heu•c, could take away the signatures of letters: Governments relied on official docuinects affixed to protocols. Al hough his noble friend might think the declarations to with he alluded of importance, they did not affect diplo soatic proceedings. Ea:l GitEY said the Noble Duke had anticipated the re ns:vie he was prepared to make. They were to be contra. dctd by official documents. He was responsible in that ft acas , as a man of honour for what lie sated, and he had vattti what occurred to hi:n as to the expectation which this centaur bad a right to entertain. Those were the terms Ise used. and the Noble Earl repeated them, that he might i , 1 , 1 be pledged to any other statement, made by the Noble Marquis. Ile deprecated the bringing forward of such dis cussions in' the present state of the negotiations. In his opinion no comae could be better chosen than that pursued by Noble Lords on the other side of the House, for the in tetruption and throwing of difficulties in the way of the compicion of those negotiations. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he had made Isis observations from facts under the signatures of protocols. Gleat contradiction had occurred among alinisten on the affairs of Belgium, and the Noble Lord could not find fault with hint for bringing the circumstances under the attention of that House. The subject then dropped. The Marquis of SALISBURY presented a petition from Hertford, praying for the extension of the elective flanchise. "'CATON'S DIVORCE DILL. The LORD CHANCELLOR called the attention of the house to the facts in this case, so remarkable for immo rality ; alter which the house adjourned till Thursday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. THE CARPENTERS' PETITION. --- Mr. HUNT presented a petition from the unemployed carpenters and joiners of the metropolis, agreed to at a public meeting. They stated that upwards of 12,000 carpenters in the metropolis were unemployed, chiefly on account of the use of machinery, and from the use of cast iron in building houses, in lieu of wood. They prayed the house to vote a sum of money for the erection of public building., as a means of givinq them employment, and they also prayed for an eitten4itin of the elective franchise. Sir C. BU a RI.LL said, if any distress existed amongst the tradesmen in quertion, it was owing to combination. Mr. HUNT was Informed that the petitioners did not bel.ing to any club of the kind alluded to. The hon. mem b_r protenfril a petition from Bath, praying for a reduction of the stand.ng army, and also of taxation. Mr. &8181, presented petitions from places in Ireland, against the grant to the Kildare-street Society. Lord MILTON presented a petition from the Lord Mayor and Corporation of the city of Dublin, praying that • Board of unpaid Commissioners should be appointed to sit in Dublin, to superintend the public works in Ireland, and to give information to that house on matters connected with the interests of that country. Mr. ORATTAN supported the forayer of the petition, and thought that the greatest benefit would result to Ire land b the establishment of the Board of Commissioners alluded to in the petition. He thought such a Board would save the house a great deal of notable, by giving valuable information to it on matters with which ate home was at present perfectly unacquainted. Colonel CONNOLLY was in favour of the establish ment of the Board alluded to by the petitioners. If it was not es useful as it was expected it would oe, it could be dis solved. Mr. WYSE supported the prayer of the petition, and said that he was well satisfied that the House would find several high-minded gentlemen tbat would give ti er ser vices gratuitously for the benefit of Inland. Sue. a Board was recess:Ty, to collect information to enable that Htrtt-e to legi.late. MT. O'CONNF.LL said that the testimony of the p- ti tioncrs was a complete proof of the eistress of I“ 1at..% This applies ion for boards showed the necessity of a loco; legis lature. A Beard would be, in point of fact, a local lature, without responsibility. Col. TORII ENS contended that if a repeal of the Union took plice, and that twat independent legislators existed io inland and in England, no permanent connexion could exist between the two countries. Mr. CRA MPTON said that the prayer of the petition deserved the most strlous consideration of that house. Those who advocated the Union. unknowingly, he admitted, were advocating a measure which would inevitably lead to the injury of both countries. Lord MILTON said that Ireland had not means within it to make it a manufacturing country, although he admitted that it had comidcrable means to make it a flourishing agri cultural and commercial country. CoL TRENCH was of a similar opinion with the noble lord. Mr. O'CONNELL said that Ireland had considerable re sources by means of wat. r power, for ate impelling of ma chinery. Ile contended that it was rot incompatible wish the existence of a complete connexion between Ireland and this country, for the former country to possess an indepen dent legislature. Ailer a few observations from Sir G. ROSE and Lord Mtt.TON. the petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. EWART presented a petition ;loin Liverpool, against the renewal cf tha Let for pettnittiog foreign sugar to be refined. ➢lr. TAIXOT prosr:m.d a petition from Swansea : in fa vour ol - Reform MIL M. 17 , L AKE NET presented a pttition from a distiller residlng in Carlow, praying that the distillers of Ireland .nay allowed the drawback upon malt used in distillation. The lion. member also presentee: a petition front Carlow, a:r.iiist the grant to the Kildare-street Society. M. 11A LIOUtt presented a petition from Htuldington, a3aiast the use of rnultratses Ist diatilla.ion. Mr. O'CONNELL presented two petitions from Water fend and Tipperary. egaintt the gram to he Kildare-since Society; a similar pethion from a parish in Tyrone. Also, petition from Newry, to the sante effect. Also a similar petition from Clomnel. Also a petition from pieces ie Kilkenny, prayitsa that she ecclesiastical property of Ire. land might be taken into thc. hands of the Government, to pay the working part of the Protestant clergy. The pea *ism also called upon the house so interpose between the petitioners and the tithe system. Mr. CRAMPTON cautioned the house against piecing to much conlidenee in the •etatemeitts made by petitioners from Ireland. The Hon. Member allittled to the statement made by the petitioners front Kilkenny, respecting the trial of she persons connected with the disturbances in Kilkenny, relatire to tithes. He read letters from the Attorney Gene. rah, and from Mr. Kimmis, from which it appeared that the Jury were not all Protestants, there was one Catholic upon it. The Ca.holies, too, on the panel were not challenged. He also referred to the cast of char: eh. and said that the representation made on the subject was very much ex aggerated. Mr. O'CONNELL repeated the statement which be matte on a rormer night tespecting Maheragh. A number of Catholics belonging to that village were sentenced to six months' imprisonntent, for !making an Orangeman's drum ; while a number of Orangemen, who stacked the village in question, burred several halms, and stalshed various per. sons. were no, even apprehended. He complained of Go vernment not instituting an inquiry into the matter. The representations made by him relative to the Kilkenny stair, were made rpon the best authority ; and be was borne out , by the statement of the noble lord (lluncannon) the member fur Kilkenny. Mr. CRAMPTON did not mean to impugn the veracity of the hon. member for Kerry, but he thought be ought to be more cautious in giving credit to accounts sent to him. Mr. SHIN( said it would be Warg on the part of the members of the government, if .hey sottL i ll. to improve the system complained of in Ireland, rather than employing I themselves in finding out reasons for justifying it. After a few words from Sir R. 'stems and Mr. O'Cox- NELE._ Mr. F. LEFROY justified tl•e course adopted by the Solicitor-Citmeral for Ireland, in replying to exaggerated statements. Mt. O'CONNELL prevented a petition from Carrick on•Sulr, praying that the yeomanry might be disbanded. Lord STORMONT moved that a new writ be issued for Armagh, in the room of Lord Ingestrie, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. Sir G. CLERK complained of no return being made of the election for the borough of Grimsby. The election took place, and the gentlemen returned arrived in town to take their seats in that House, but., upon going to t::e Crown Office, they found that no return had been made. This was an important subject, connected as it tress with the privileges of Parliament, and deserved the -ttention of the House. He moved that the D:puty Clerk of the Crown do attend the House forthwith, to state, if he could, the reason why a return had not been made of the G: hay election. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER fully agreed in the course adopted by the horn, member, because it was quite right that the house should know if any trick had been adopted respecting this return. (Hear.) The Deputy Clink of the Crown was called in, when he informed the house that no return has as yet been made re specting the Grimsby election. Sir G. CLERK then moved that the high sheriff of Lin coln, and the returning officer of Grimsby, be ordered to attend this house on Friday next. After a few observations from Lord Althorp, Sir T. Fre. mantle, and Sir J. Wrottesley, the motion was agreed to. Ale. KENNEDY begged to put a question to the Lord Advocate respecting disturbances that took place in Ayrshire on the lath of July. The question he wished to ask was, did certain high persons, not connected with Ayrshire at all, interfere with respect to the liberation of persons under a charge of murder, and for which they were shortly to b e tried ? The LOUD ADVOCATE said he had reason to believe that interference had been made respecting persons who were then under a charge for murder. He did not, however, mean to say that the interference was improper. Mr. HUME postponed his motion respecting the bishop rick of Dere) , for one week, and he expresseit a hope that the see would not be filled up in the meantime. The hon. mem ber also gave notice that be would move for certain returns connected with public works in Ireland Upon the motion that the house resolve itself into a com mittee upon the reform bill, Lord VALLETORT called the attention of the house to a most important subject. It was this, that the French Sect, since its attace upon Lisbon, had carried 'away • Por. tuguese vessel, containing a number of Portuguese. He hoped that a clear and satisfactory answer would be given to this que.tion. If not, ha would just say that the feet un der Sir E. Codrington would have been more advantageously engaged for the honour of England, if it were resisting this invasion, than by lying in the Downs, to force an ancient ally into a particular course against his will. Lord PALAIERSTON said the Noble Lord was cor rectly informed. All the Portuguese vessels in the T•gus struck to the French fleet, and the latter considered that those vessels were prises of war, and consequently captured them. Mr. COURTEN A begged to know if the war upon Portugal had been an aggressive war ? Lord PALMERSTON objected to this system of inter rogation. if a motion were made, his Majesty's Govern ment would be able to show that they had maintained the honour and dignity of the country. Mr. COURTENAY would give ministers an opportunity of defending themselves. Upon the question being put, that the House go into Committee, Mr. PAGET put same questions relative to the precincts of the town of Leicester. Lord ALTHORP said that the object of the 24th clause was to take in the parishes of the neighbourhood of Leicester. After a few observations from Mr. WARBURTON, Mr. BRISCOE begged to ask whether the slaves be longing to the Clown in the West Indies were to be emancipated ? Lord A LTHORP said that orders had been sent out to em a i l pa A te L t T he ß C O ro ß w P, n nS i iaves. reply to the Marquis of Chandos, said it was not the intention of government to bring any measure before parliament this session, respecting the West India Colonies. rotaass Colonel EVANS rise to submit a motion respecting the neutrality to he observed towards Poland, and said bar an interference had taken place on the part of Prussia, which was unfair towards Poland, and by which, disrespect had been shown to British vessels conveying merchandise to the Poles. Ile thought that at least neutrality ought to be ob served towards Poland, because in 1815 the abject of the three Powers, England, Austria, and Prussia, was to make Poland a complete kingdom, to serve as a birder against the power of Russia. Tnis was the object of Englam, and as sented to by Austria and Prussia; Russia, however, objected to any other arranttement than an annexation of Poland to Russia; (hese, tear, hear) the latter country agreeing to give to Poland a free constitution, and a complete nati o n a lity of power. The bon. Immix: read the charter, (vim which i: appeared that no Russian troops w ere t o go into Poland unless with the consent of Poland, nor were the Polish troops to he marched out of Po land unless with the same consent. The press was to be free no taxes were so tic raised but by the Diet, &c. No one of these provisions of the charter were adhered to by Russia ; indeed, personal liberty was ccmpletely disregarded. It was this disregard to her comments manifested by Rus sia that caused Poland to adopt the last alternative, nwmely, having tccoorse to arms. livery war that 'ltissia has iieen engag , el io for these las. 100 years has terminated by an accessioo of powo. av :I particularly in 1815. It was the Russian Cabinet the. ar a mi at. Austrian Government to put down the imottree.i-n in Italy. end it was the Russian Cabin , t that urged .1 - a Fcetsfit Government to invert: Spain. The war that ra4ed in • Pohtod was :t war against lii,erty. (Hear.) He tistingit. thst it , e remarks of the Frost: , 51inis was in th. Chan:her of Deputies, were trade in ,:efence, and wi it a view to !noire she IliMstry; bu: the /Una natio!' en Ts taired fedi ri 4 s,s.rd sy sop ash ed with the Poles. It wt.% imroasrole die Russia could have main. tatted her armies in Poland without the assistance of Prus sia. The itussiars had passed thc Vts,uta, and were nro. tected in their rear by Prussia. He concluded by myths , for certain paper" connected with the affairs of Russia and Poland. Lehi PAI,3IENSTON said that although he could not consent to the merlon of the gallant member, he could not avoid expressin•• ids regret at the war that Fended between Rustle and Poland. He could not enter into the particulars of the occasion of the war, or into the affairs of other states. He trusted that his conduct on this occasion might no. be construed into any diarespezt for the hon. member. in not entering into the stmt ject at length. He trusted that the gal lant member wt uhl not press his motion. M. 111.731 E said that be would be sorry to ask for any information that would embarrass the government, but he thought it was a emestion that was entitled to the considera tion of the mi..isters. It was foe duty of this country to FCC that the treaties of 1313 were aZhered to. There was no :Mt of the late Lord Castlereagh's conduct that entitled him to so much ercdf., us hie lordship's efforts in 1815 to obtain for the Poles a constitution,the basis of which was decided upon at the Cnngms, end Mice violated by the Russians. He thought that the answer. or rather the no answer, of the noble lead. was very unsatisfactory. Jam I l'A LMLRSTON said that the Government would not avoid enforcing any treaties to which they were a party. (Hear, hear.) Mr. D. BROWNE expressed his surprise at the apathy evinced by the house during the obsei unions of the gallant mover, but hoped, under the circumstances, that the motion would be withdrawn. _ _ _ After a few words from Mr. O'Cowstm.t. and Colonel EVANS, the motion wss withdrawn. REFORM. On the question helps put that the house resolve itself into a Committee upon the Reform Bill, Mr. HUIIIE said that he was not desirous to protract the passing of the Reform Bill, but he felt it his duty to sug gest that the colonies should be represented in the Ihitish parliament. The East Indies and the thirty-four colonies, including Canada, possessed a population and wealth that fully entitled those interests to be represented until they were placed in a situation to manap their own affairs. Nee had four classes of colonies : the East Indies, the West Indies, the Canada% and those places that were goverred by the King in counciL He admitted that by statute law it was not in the power of the House to interfere with these colonies that had Legislative Assemblies, excel): in certain cases. He would give to the Crown colonies a larger proportion than those that enjoyed Legislative Assemblies. Ile thought that those colonies ought to be represented to protect 1 their interests, and that the House ought to be placed in the beet situation to legislate upon those distant rights. It was alleged that when the Reform Bill passed, pawns connected with the colonial interests would not he able to obtain seats in that House, and he would suggest that those colonies should be directly represented. He did not mean to add to the representatives. By the present measure a decrease of 32 members would take place, and he would propose that is of those members should be granted to re present the colonial interest (hear.) He would grant four members to the East Indies, eight members to the Crown Colonies, three members to British North America, three members to the West Indies, and one member to Guernsey, Jersey, and Alderney. By this arrangement the interests of those plates would be protected, and the Reform Bill ren dered more satisfactory and complete. The situation, wealth, population, and trade of British North America strongly called for attention. The Crown Colonies possessed a great population, and carried on au extensive commerce with this country. It was unnecessary fez him to at tempt to point out the importance of India (hear.) The hon. member went through a variety of details to prove the necessity of granting representatives to those colonies. He suggested that the four members for India should be elected by every man who was competent to sit upon Juries; by adopting this plan, a constituency was already made.— The West Indies, Ceylon, tile Mauritius, the Cape of Good Hope, New South %Vales, and Gibraltar, possessed the material to form a most respectable constituency from the white population in chest: places. lie was assured upon the best .tuthority. that there could Le no difficulty in creating a loos. respectable constituency. Ile trusted that the house should yield to this proposition, which would prove very serviceable to the country and to the colonies. Tile ho nourable member then enumerated the population of those places to which he was disposed to grant representatives. He proposed that the islands should elect their rzresen tatives as they were elected in t h e Scotch burghs. Hear,) lie thought shat British North America was well entitled to be represented in the British parliament. There was one point to be decided : how were the members to find their war to that home (laughter.) He suggested three ways. Heat, that the members should be elected absolutely for three years; secondly, that the members should be considered members until the return of the writs; thirdly, that the Speaker, as in • ordinary eases, should issue his writ, and that the places should be vacant until the return of the writ, which might take place in six or twelve months, but then the colonies would not be worse or than they were at present. He thanked the house fur their attention, and thought that if the subject was considered by his Majesty's Government, or referred to a committee, peat good might arise from it. He thought that this wu a proper time to consider the subject. He moved that instructions be given to the committee to make provision to represent the colonies. Mr. LABOUCHEItE said that he would listen to any motion that would lead to measures that would cement the colonies to this country. But he did not think that the scheme of the Hon. Member was practicable, and that lithe colonies were represented by twenty Members, that they would form a little knot. and unite upon all questions ?slat ing to the colonies, and feel regardless of all other interests. Such a party in that house would always be sure to yield to Moisten for some colonial advantage. (Cheers.) He trusted that some better system would be adopted to protect the in. tacos of the colonies. He did not believe that the colonial interests would suffer in a reformed House of Commons. He thought that there would always be found persons who would see the advantage to the country in protecting the co lonial interest. He thought that it was worthy of considers. don, if it would not be wise, to allow the monied interest to return Members to Parliament, and that every person who had 1,0001. in the funds should have a vote. llama a plan was adopted, he thought that in that manner the colonial In terests might be represented. Mr. K. DOUGLAS deplored the polity of his Majesty's ministers, in depriving the colonial interests of the power to protect their interests its that House. Lord ALTHORP said that it was Impossible to entertain the plan of the hon. n:ember, which was quite impracticable. He could anted believe that his hon. friend was serious in moving s to the Committee upon such a point. He tread that tbs House would not enter into a discussion span the Sk J. 1111 . 1t01.111d conceived that the subject vas end ded Waiimilderation. India should have representatives in that bases, to give them the best information respecting that maw ; particularly as the reform bill took away every ',verbosity of persons connected with that interest of havkw mete in the house. Without pledging himself to the detaW, he would support the motion fee giving rem sentatives to the colonies. Unless the noble, lord gave his attention to the subject. with a view to have the colonial interest represented in that house, be was satisfied that there would be a great want of useful information. Though the East India Company were under sufficient checks, still It would not supersede the necessity of having persone in that house who could give information respecting the go vernment in India. He hoped in Lied that the "present ministers would continue long in their places. This he wished on account e f India, because the frequent changes in the Atlntinistration of this country were highly detri. mental to India. He had no doubt but as soon as the re form bill passed, hit blejtsty's mini, tors would give due attention to the proposition of the member for Middlesex. He would prefer to support the interest of 100 millions of men to any local interest. Sir G. STAUNTON supported die proposition. It was stated rot many nights ego, that the Nabob of Arcot had representatives in that house sonic years ago. If that was :he case, what difficulty could there be in having any foreign interest renresented ? If Manchester and other great towns returned members who resided at a distmce from them to represent their interests, why could not the colonies do the same ? It could not be said that m:mbere r„pre•:ntin A the colonies would have no identity of interest with this country, for no man could alt in that house who had not property to the amount of three hoodood pounds a-ye.r in this country. Sir C. WETHEIt ELL oeserved that those who were represented as enemies of reform, could no longer be considered at; e! e only persons who Immured &Ler-bons in the hill; for the advocates foe the measure heel already proposed more alteration* thao the enemies of it. The noble lord, the member for NJ.thamptonshire ' bad, the other ntg!,t, ptroposed a materiel eherstion, an d the mem ber tin Middlesex hail pronoeed a sweeplog one to - night. Cogent as he must admit tile arguments of the honourable member for bidlesex to be, he (Sir Charles) could not agree with him in introducing so extraordinary an inno vation in the constitution, as to hare tneuthers for other countr:es sitting among them. But the arguments of the member for Middlesex went to shew the policy of con tinning the representative system in its ',resent state, as the colonies would thereby have an opportunity of being indi rectly tepreserned. Ile would maintain that the colonies should be represepted in that house, for the legislature of this country did indirectly legislate for the colonies and im pose taxes on them. Asa proof of this he would Instance the duties on Cape Wines and Canadian timber. There had always been in this house six or seven members who gave information respectio•,; the West India colonies, and as many who attended to the Interests of the East Indies; but now the opportunity of having such members was taken away, in order to give Greenwich members to take ears of her white bait. Now he thought that this reform bill was totteting to pieces; every page of it that was opened aboun ded with levities and inconsistencies. The hon. and learned '-timber then referred to the old Roman custom of chewing die colonies which they had subdued to send members , o the senate to represent them, observing there was great diffi culty in carrying that cbjeet into effect, and the consequence was that it was dcsisted from. With regard to the ptopool of the Hon. Member for Middlesex, he would sty that it would be almost impracticable, an d though he (Sir Charles) could not support h, still he would maintain that it was se ctssary fur the. interests of .he Colonies that they should have representatives in that House. He agreed with the Noble Lord (Althorp) that this proposition would not be favourable to the Bill. lie (Sir Charles) cared not about that. He cared not whether it was favourable to this new Constitution or not, that was a question fur the advo cates of the Bill, not for its enemies. He did not doubt but that the Member for Middlesex was sincere, but he was convinced that he would never succeed in carrying the measure which he proposed. He felt sure that the Honourable Member would bring forward the subject on a more favourable occasion. He never heard a more able speech front the Hon. Member than on the present occasion.— (Laughter.)—He was mire that the Hon. Member had be. stowed great pains on the subject, and had the assistance of others in conjunction with his own, which showed that he was in earnest, and would not let the subject drop here. Now, in considering how the colonies could have represen tatives in that House, he did not see bow it cord" be done except they sent delegates out of their own representative bodies. He saw so much difficulty in it altogether, that he could not give his consent to it. The enemies of the bill were told often by laymen and aldermen (laughter), to watch the signs of the times, not to be factious, or throw obstacles in the way of the bill% but what enemy of the bill intro. ducted a greater obstacle, or a greater anomaly, than the Hon. Member for Middlesex had done ? llr. BURGE conceived it by so means impracticable to have representatives front the colonies in that house, thou,th Mr. Burke was of a different opinion. Yet it vu once proposed by the government of North America, when commissioners were sent there from this colony to Neon elle some differences which existed between them and us. It was said that such representatives would coalesce, and be united on every subject ; but he would ask did :hose who indirectly represented the colonies in this howsoever coalesce, or appear united on any question ? It was absolutely neces sary that the colonial interests should be rcpr seated in that house, and how could that be, if this bill passed, unless some provision was expressly made for that ? We owe the greatest part of our venial and sp r these colon there interest should therefore not be neglected. There could not he a more severs censure on the Reform Bill than the statement of the meruher foe Middlesex, 'watch clearly showed that some of the most important interests of the cm pier would thereby cease to be represented in that house. Sir C. FORBES felt very grateful to the hon. member for Middlesex for die pains which he had taken respecting this subject. It would be consolatory to the colonial in. musts to reflect that, even if they should be deprived of an opportunity of being represented in that house by the passing of the Reform Cill, (which he hoped would never occur.) still they would not be without friends in that house, while the member for Middlesex had a seat in h. Sir' G. MURRAY was happy to perceive that the house had given much attention to this disc-union. It speared to him that. during the discussioo on the Reform Bill, they forgot that the British empire was not moaned to our do- mestic dominions. It was satisfactorily proved by ho. pourable members that there was no provision made for tt'a colonial interests in this bill, but on the con mry, that they would not have the same influence in tha‘ house which die:- had hitherto. He was of opinion that to remedy that evil, (for an evil he must consider it to be,) something like that proposed by the Hon. Member for Middlesex should be done. What the precise measure should be, he would not take upon himself to say. He would tell the House, that when they had passed the Reform Bill, they would by no means have made provisions for every part of this Empire. The Noble Lord (Althorp) had stated that such proposals as this would be hostile to the reform bill, but surely the noble Lord would not my that the members for Middlesex and Taunton were enemies to reform. The fact was, they saw those defects in the reform bill, and they endeavoured to remedy them. Lord ALTHORP, in stating that such proposals would be hostile to the reform bill, meant that they would con tribute to delay it. lilt. HUMR Welly replied. The motion was then put, and negatived. On the motion that the House resolve itself Into a Com mittee on the Reform Bill, Mr. H. HUGHES gave notice that, on bringing up the report, he should move that all words relating to the division of counties should be left out. The House then went into Committee. On the motion that the Isle of Wight send one member, pursuant to the 14th clause, Mr. H. HUGHES said that the population, of the Isle of Wight amounted to 36,000. The county of Rutland had only a population of 18,417, yet it sent two members to parliament ; why then should not the We of Wight send two members. He concluded by moving as an amend ment, that the blank in the clause be filled up with the word "two." Mr. H. GURNEY sumrted the amendment. Lewd ALT HORP could not agree with the hon. mem ber, that the freeholders were placed in a worse situation by this bill than they were now in. On the contrary, he thought that they gained a coasidenible having one member to themselves, instead of merelyvoti n goe two mem. bees fee Hampshire. Sir G. CLERK mid that the only object of giving a member to the Isle of Wight, was to give five members to Hampshire. There were other counties that deserved a larger number of members, and yet they did not get them. Why, he asked, was Hart to be thus favo ure d % tie was informed that one particular interest would predentitre In the Isle of Wight. What right had it over the I I •5 : .. t Man, which was not to have a member? Mr. CARTER said it was always understood that t; Isle of Wight was a separate district from SouthaniteL: and therefore that might be a good reason for his klajemt-. ministers giving a member to that place. After a few words from an Ron. Member, Lord MILTON thought that the reason given by ti: boa. member (Mr. Carter) was a very good one, and tut. (dent to justify his Majesty's ministers to give a member tu the Isle of Wight. The case of the Isle of Man was Suitt different, heels**, although that Island was connected *lt!. the British Crown, yet It was not taxed by England. After a few words from Sir O. WA RRENDER and Mt. DUNDAS,____ Lord ALTHORP said, that the ttuon for giving a mem. bee to the isle of Wight rested upon it geog ra phi cal grouni:. Hampshire was a county totally distinct from the Isle of Wight, and, therefore, giving a member to that inland eat not adding to the members for Hampshire. He denied that there would be any particular Interest predominant in the Isle of Wight. Mr. CHOKER complained of the manner in which Inez. ben were given to particular counties, while ethers tiLt were larger, and had a greater number of inhabitants, tree not to get an addition to their uembers. After a few words from Sir G. Clerk. Lord Milton, S.r J. AI. Sl'Donnell, Mr. Croker, Sir R. Inglis, Mr. C. IV. ham, Mr. Pints, and Mr. Knight, Lord ALTHORP .aid that the Governor of the Isle t: Wier was die alicritrof the place. r. HUNT said that Hampshire was always eonside:e: a Government county. He, however, had no objection I • giving a member to the Isle of Wight, because he kl.Jagh, that toot member would be an independent man. He con:. plained of the amendinews constantly brought &rand by the friends of the bill. He was denounced when he spoke his mird on the bill. Loo k a. the Times:newspaper, ebi,h at Sm aevott!cd the bill, the whole bill, and nothing but .he bill ; (Peat) but now it was laying it on the back of th• noble lo d. the member for Nonhampton, on account of .be clerse dative to the diction of the counties. (Hear.) He was for lilting eerie gentlemen et: ladles at ,Ice bar of the House. (A lanai' and cries of bear.) The Tines was calling 'or county ow tinge to oppose the dame respecting the divisiou of tise coualles. But the power of the Times had gone by ; it could not ga t.ll even a Common Hell. (Hear.) rola papa was oonstcutly attacking the members of this House, and overatt log Its decisions. For any attack upon he did nut care. Ha thought if the diactusiou upon Oe Reform Bill had been carried on with closed doors, It would have been for the advantage uf the people, for th, proceedings of the House were misrepresented. Mr. U. UW. 11AIIVRY rose to order. Tiu CUAIMAJO de:ld.(l .'Va. there was no question before the t.eme respecting the Times newspaper. M. - . I/ UNT Lon:creed o make further observations, and co/wind:a *.:y voyieg that Fe would support the 'notion be. fora ate house. Arta a few observations from Mr. Ctozza, Colonel Siarrnonr, and Mr. BARING, Lord ALTHORP, in reply to the latter hon. member, said that tIL. Governor of the Isle of Wight was like the Covet nor of the county of Wes moteland, he was High She. riff by virtue of his other office. Mr. H. HUGHES replied. After a few remarks from LordtirozatowT, Mr. CROZER, Mr. G. LAUOLITON, and Mr. Huns., In ai.swer to a question from Mr. Kamm?, Lori A LTHOR P acid that neither the present governor of the hie of Wight nor his predecessor were military mon. After a few words from Lord STORMONT and Mr. MURAT. Mr. TREVOR asked how the futon governors of the hie of iVigbt were to he appohned ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied that they were to be appointed In the same way as lord lieutenants of counties. The motion was then agreed to. The question that the sheriff be appointed the tectonic; officer was then put. Sir C. WETHERELL thought that the whole clause was very loosely drawn. Mr. KNIGHT said, that his previous objection was well founded. The office of Lord Lieutenant was a military office, and it would, therefore. be highly Inexpedient to lure the Sheriff appointed by the Government. Mr. TREVOR was of the same opinion. After some further conversation between Lord Altborp, Lord Stormont, Mr. Hughes, and Mr. C. Pelham, the mu. lion was agreed to. The question that the clause stand part of the bill was alu speed to. The CHAIRMAN was proceeding to read the 16th dame, in order so put it, when Colonel DAVIES suggested that they ought not to pre. reed farther that night. To this clause be had several ob jections, 'Weir would take a good deal of time in stating, and it was quite impossible therefore that they could get through it that night. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER bad no objection to adjourn then, if by doing so it would be any accommodation to the Honourable and Gallant Gentle. man. The CHAIRMAN then left the Chair, and the House baring resumed, reported progrem, and obtained lure to sit again. The other Olden of the Day were then disposed of; trd the House at;joumed at a Quarter to One o'Clock. FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE. BELGIUM AND HOLLAND. NEWS RECEIVED THIS DAT. BRUSSELS, Ay*. 13.—0 n the 11th a courier dispatched by the French legation at the Hague to Gen. Balliard, arrived at Brussels at two o'clock in the afternoon, when Gen. Balliard, being at the head quarters of the Belgian army, the dispatches were sent to Louvain to him. The Charge d'Affaires of France announced that on an assurance that the prolongation of the at tack on Belgium by Holland would be considered as a declaration of war against France, the King of Holland had taken steps to obey the in junctions of the French government for the im mediate cessation of hostilities, and that orders had been immediately sentto the Dutch troops to evacuate the Belgic territory without delay. The King, who did not return till near ten at night from the reconnoissance which he made to _ .. wards Tirlemont, was directly informed of this first decisive result of the presence of the French army, and Gen.Belliard having received from King Leopold the expression of his satisfaction at this happy result, set out for the French head quarters. Being informed at Hal, where his Royal High ness the Duke of Orleans had his head quarters, that Marshal Gerard was at Novellas, and unable, in consequence of the fatigue he had undergone the preceding days, to come from Nevelles to Hal, a journey which it is impossible to make except on horseback, General Belliard sent a courier with his despatches to Marshal Gerard, and returned without loss of time to Louvain. Gen. Belliard, as he passed through Brussels on his re turn from Hal to Louvain, acquainted the mi nisters with the dispatches from the Hague, and the steps he had already taken ; and fearing that the confidence inspired by this firg process might cause the Dutch to neglect the im mediate execution of the orders which they would have received from King William, proceeded in person, before be went to Louvain, towards Ter veuren, near which place he justly expected to meet with the Dutch. In fact, he met the Duke of Saxe-Weimar on the heights between Ter veuren and Louvain : h e commun icated to him s ibs despatches o f w hi c h h e was the bearer, and after an hour's conversation the Duke of Save Weimar sent one of his aide-de camps to the Prince of Orange. Lilo' Auo. 12 .— M. C. de Brouckere and Mr. Sudet de Chokier at Liege. It is said that 'il‘ I•