Star. — London, England, 1821-03-17 00:00:00

. . l irekand, in consequence of the measure proposed by Mr. Plunkett, which gave general satisfaction). — This letter was entitled to peculiar attention, from the respectable character.of the individual by whom It had been written. Mr. PEEL explained, and referred to the opinion of the Roman Catholic Prelates as hostile to thelura sure, even after they had.received the rescript from Rome signed by theVice-Prefect of the Propaganda. Dr. PHILLIMORE spoke against the principle of the Petition, and said the signatures did riot include any one name of distinction among the respectable Roman Catholic families of Staffordshire.—The Pe tition was then ordered to lie on the table. Lord PALMERSTON moved that it be printed. - Mr. DAWSON wished to ask an Hon. Baronet (Sir H. Parnell), if the House was to consider that the letter he had read expressed the concurrence of the Catholics of Ireland in the present measure? Sir H. PARNELL said, lie had read the letter as coming from a private individual. expressing his opi nion on a public question, without making ;my pledge with respect to it. Sir JAMES MACKLNTOSH was anxious to state a fact with which the Right lion. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) seemed unacquainted. The Right Hon. Gentleman supposed, that because the Catholics did not accede to the mere diction of M. Quarantotti, in 1814, they were therefore disinclined to acquiesce in the communication from the Pope. It was very true that the Roman Catholics were not content with the lime diait of M. Quarantotti; but when they. had re ceived instructions from higher aethority, they im mediately submitted, and had not said a wi.r.l in op position for the last seven years—( Hear). . Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that the Pope had disowned the rescript of Quarantotti. The Petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. COKE presented a Petition, signed by fifty of the Clergy of Norwich, in support of the Catholic Claims—(Hearatenr).—lle concurred most cordially in the prayer, yet he felt that anything he could say would be superfluous after the manner in which the question had been brought forward by the Right Honourable Member tier the University of Dublin. The splendid talents of that Right Honourable Mem ber were worthily employed upon the occasion. He felt proud and delighted at the reflection, that in presenting this Petition, he was doing an act which would afford the highest pleasure to that excellent Prelate, the Bishop of Norwich, whose life had been devoted to the cause of civil and religious liberty, and who had made every exertion in support of the present measure—(Cheers). Mr. WODEHOU SE wished that the discussion should be carried on in the same spirit of liberality with which it had commenced. ' The Petition was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. Lord PALNIERSTON presented a Petition from the University of Cambridge against any further concessions to the Roman Catholics. The Noble Lord expressed his entire dissent from the prayer.— He did not feel the same alarm as the Petitioners, at conceding the claims of his Catholic fellow,sithjects; and he thought that the day of the final adjustment of those claims, b) , having tEe Royal assent given to the present Bills, would be one of the most auspi cious that bad ever dawned upon England—( Cheers). Mr. SMITH said, that the Petition was far from being unanimously agreed to; at the same time, he hoped that no discussion might take place on this or any other Petitions, which would tend to alter that tone of forbearance and good temper with which this great question had been hitherto treated in the House--( Haar, hear). The Petition was read, and ordered to be printed. Lord E. SOMERSET presented a Petition from the Clergy of Stow, in Gloucestershire, against the Bill for removing Catholic disabilities.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. C. GRANT presented a Petition from the Roman Catholic Merchants in the town of Galway in favour of the Bill for removing Roman Catholic disabilities. —Ordered to be printed. Mr. M. FITZGERALD presented a Petition in Amur of the Bill from the Roman Catholics of Tralee.--Ordered to be printed. CATHOLIC BILL. Mr. PLUNKETT rose and said, that before he moved the Order of the Day for the second reading of this Bill, he would trespass for a short time on the attention of the House. Having on a former occa sion experienced so much of the indulgence of the House upon the general question, he would not now trench upon the more extensive view of it, but confine himself to.a brief outline of the nature' of the two Bills which he had the honour of • pro posing. But before he went into that outline, he would take this opportunity of reminding the House, that when he first opened this subject, be had stated, that the measure had for its principal object a treat act of national justice, which would end in the public good- He stated, that if it was attained through it, tp would produce some degree of immediate satisfac tion, a result which was • most desirable ; yet, at the same time, the result was not the main object of the Measure. He confessed he had great doubts at the, time a s s to the extent of immediate satisfaction which' he might expect:' he did expect it, indeed, to some considerable degree, and he had now to state, that' his expectations on that point had been much more than realised--(Hear, hear).—The degree of satisfac- 6on which the measure had already excited among his countrymen, exceeded his most sanguine hopes.l ilelleped, therefore, that Hon. Members would not think him unjust if he despaired of satisfying every, body. Indeed, there were some persons who consi dered. that if they were satisfied with any measure a this kind, it would be a most calamitous circum stance to the country. They conceived it to be their duty to Gov, and to the State, to look upon their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects with undiminished hostility, and to bequeath that feeling as a heir-loom from sire to son for ever—(Hear, dear, and laughter). Wi t h such person; he would not attempt to argue.— Thee were entrenched in a territory of their own withia which he could net expect to be permitted to e wer. lie li•iold leave them in the undisturbed en lament of it. Most worthy and excellent persons d m . were , no doubt, and it was to him a source of Mat satisfaction to feel, that if the measure should ferried, it would not have the effect of interferinn Usow of their comforts or enjoyments—v/44. . , If the Bill were converted into a loan tot light, it was a great satisfaction to him to know that the sun I would rise upon those worthy people to-morrow, and find them.in the same perfect good humour and hap piness in which they were to-day—(flear, hear, and laughter).—He deprecated the idea of having said anything which went to apply the .epithet bigotted to a great body of the Protestant people of this coml. try. Nothing could be more foreign to the feelings of his heart than any such idea. And, indeed, he could assure the Honourable Member who threw out some insinuation of that sort, that if there was an in l i - dividual in the House to whom such a charge might be applicable, he Was the last person to whom it could be justly ascribed. He always treated the opi nions of others with great respect, and not the less so when they differed from his own. He felt that, in his own opinions, such as they were, there might.he many errors. If those errors were pointed out to him, no one would be more ready to yield to the sugges tions. cl truth than himself. He begged to assure the House, that in preparing the Resolutions upon which these Bills were founded, he, and those able and re spectable .persons with whom he had co-operated, proceeded with .an anxious regard fir Protestaut feel ing. They considered every real danger which ex isted, and even provided against every reasonable ap prehension. This was their principal object, to con sult the proper feelings of the Roman Catholics, to protect the rights and interests of all their fellow subjects ; to steer, in a word, that course which would have the effect of reconciling both—(!tear, hear). — As, on the one hand, nothing was to be yielded of the required security, so, on the other, nothing was to be demanded which would be inconsistent with that security—(Wear, hear). Proceeding on these grounds, they hoped to attain the end desired ; and, se far as they had yet advanced, they had succeeded. The state of the public mind in Ireland was, in the .main, favourable to the measure. Io England, an lion. Member said, it was looked upon with apathy.— Apathy !—No ; they were not inattentive to the mea sure ; but, in his opinion, their disposition was to leave it entirely to the wisdom of Parliament— ( Cheers ).—They confided in theintegrity and good ' sense of their Representatives, confident that, if any real danger menaced the Establishment, their Parlia ment would provide against it—(Hear, hear).- Before he proceeded to sta:e the nature of the first Bill, he would take leave to set himself right in the opinion of the House as to a part of what he had said on a former evening. He did then assert, that' admission to the franchises and offices of the State was the Constitutional right of every Roman Catholic liege subject of the King. The . rights of all liege subjects of the King were equal in the case of the firstelements of the Constitution. That assertion he would now re-assert. In the same sense in which the Protestant was entitled to any franchise, privi lege, or right, the Roman Catholic was entitled to it. But he never said, nor meant to say, that that right was of such a nature that it was not to be controuled by any particular exigency of the State. The Roman ' Catholic admitted this. If it could be shewn to the Roman Catholic that there would be any real danger in extending to him -the enjoyment of those rights which the Constitution gave him, then he must yield to that danger as over-ruling his claim. But be would ask those who denied this doctrine, where did the Protestant find his right to vote for Representatives in Parliament? Where did he find his right to eli gibility to a seat himself *in Parliament? Where was his title, according to law, to any one privilege or franchise which he exercised? He did not know, unless it was in the first elements and essential prin ciples and stamina of the British Constitution— (Hear, hear, hear).—The Roman Catholics corn-' plained that, by certain Acts of Charles 11. they were excluded from certain offices in the State. Do they deny the validity of those Acts? No: hut they said' that those Acts had arisen out of temporary circum stances—that a danger existed to which a remedy was applied, but that now the danger was gone, the remedy was no longer necessary. They now, there fore, asked it as a matter of justice from the House, that the restriction which was imposed upon them by the exigency of the times, should cease, the , exigency no longer existing. If anyone could chew that that danger was not gone, it was competent to! him, no doubt, to do so. But if he was to be told, True, the danger is gone, but independently of that danger, and beyond it, there is a principle in the Con stitution which prohibits the Roman Catholic the enjoyment of those rights and privileges which the Protestant possesses,"—he denied it. lie.challenged, au y man who Was acquainted wish the Constitution of this country to prove it, or to say that such a principle was not at war with the first elements of that Constitu-1 tion. -He wished to set himself right with the House on' this point, because it raised a question which turned by its_ effect on the Protestant Dissenter. Nothing could be. more unfair than that mode of argument it mixed up the case of the Roman Catholic with that of the Dissenter, when, as it appeared to him, each case should be allowed to- stand upon its own ground. If there was no reason for excluding the Roman Catholic from his constitutional franchises, he was entitled to be admitted to the enjoyment of ' them. If the claim of the Protestant Dissenter was equally strong, and if no danger existed which pre vented him from being admitted to the enjoyment of his constitutional rights, he had an equal claim to be admitted. When the question of the Protestant Dis senter was brought before the- House, the House would judge it upon its own grounds: He bad formed an opinion upon that question, but as it was not now within the compass of his argument, he did not think it necessary to go into it. They were now engaged, not upon a general abstract right, but on a question of sound practical justice. The two ques tions of the Roman Catholic and the Dissenter were quite distinct, and that they were intended to be left so, at least by the Parliament of Ireland, he would 'spew in a few words, if the House would allow him to state a case Which actually occurred in the Par liament of that country. It was not, perhaps, gene rally known to the. House, or to the Public in this country, that the Protestant Dissenters in Ireland were not subject to the Test Act,mor had they been ,so for the last forty years. In 1780, an Act was passed in the Parliament of Ireland, releasing the Protestant Dissenters from the operation of the. Test Act. Since then, they grad admission to all the offices in the State, from which the .operation of the Test Act alone bad excluded them. But the Roman Ca-1 tholics were still excluded. Thus, ix was clear (Seidl 'I . the Himmirable . Member), tbat the queltion of the IternanCatholiei was-kept 'distinct from that of the Dissenters. The Roman Catholic was passed by when the Dissenter was relieved % and when another occasion subsequently offered itself to the Parlia- - ment to put them on an equal footing, it was not made use of. In 1793, an Act was passed for the relief of the Roman Catholics, and it was enacted that the Roman Catholic should be bound by no other qualification than the Protestant was liable to. One would think, that by the operation of such a provision as this, the Roman Catholic would not be liable to the Test Act. But to that it was answered, that the Dissenter was not a Protestant, and that since the Protestant was still liable to the Test Act, the Roman Catholic was not therefore exempt from it. In consequence of this evasion, a Bill was brought 'in for the purpose of explaining the Act of 1193, which declared that the Protestant was not liable to the Test Act. The Bill went through the House of Commons, it was read three times in one day ; in the Lords, the word not," which was introduced for the special purpose of explaining the Act 91 1793 was omitted, the Bin went down to the Commons, and it passed that House unanimously—(Laughter). Hence it came that the Roman Catholic in Ireland was to this day subject to the Sacramental Test. He had stated this to shew that the two questions were kept distinct, and to shew also how a measure which was calculated for conciliation, was rendered inef fectual by a paltry trick, devised by men .vho thought it was for the advautage of the country to perpetuate religious differences—( Hear, Rear).—He would now proceed to state the nature of. the first Bill. He proposed to add the oath of abjuration, as well as those of allegiance and supremacy. This he hoped would satisfy the most, timid Protestants. If any mail could point out stronger words to secure the Civil Authority of the State, he, for one, would be most happy to adopt them. But he prayed the House not to look at the Bill with a logical, critical, and metaphysical eye. He proposed also to alter a clause in the Bill to prevent the Catholics from ac quiring; landed property u ithoat taking the oaths of abjuration and supremacy. For his own part, he thought these conditions unnecessary, The oath would be taken under the old Act of George I. His object was to have nd division or separation in the oaths, and therefore it was desirable to have as much unanimity in this matter as possible ;• but as irwas thought that there was a strong oath prescribed already to the Catholics of Ireland, he was very ready to incorporate that with the other securities. He wished only to except the Lord High - Chancellor, the Lord Privy Seal, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, from being Catholics, as well as the Prime Minister of England. He believed the Right lion. Gentle. man (Mr. Grant) intended to propose. an exception to Catholics sitting on the Bench ; but with all re spect to him, he could not think the arguments tenable, which might be brought in support of this ; for, if a Protestant could not be satisfied with justice from a Catholic Judge, bow could the Catholic be. pleased with the decision of a Protestant Judge?— The Catholics of Ireland were, however, satisfied, and he would not do the Protestants the injustice to suppose that they were less tolerant. It was right that the Protestant mind should be thoroughly set at rest on the subject of the nomination of Catholic Bishops. They therefore provided that an oathshould be taken by every Roman Catholic Clergynian that his Correspondence should be purely on spiritual mat ters, and not on civil or state affairs. He believed that it would be submitted to by the Catholics of Ire land, that the Laity should have a share in the elec tion of Bishops. The Pope had declared that the Catholics might give the right of nomination to Bishoprics to the Crown. He would not -reject the Dill. if only the tlifling boon were granted of allowing a Roman Catholic Barrister to wear a silk gown (a concession which he would gladly ac cept if nothing more was granted). In either ofl these cases, he would not feel himself justified in at tempting to proceed with the second Bill. There was, one topic more to which he felt it necessary to allude, namely, the notice of his Ilonourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Croker), with respect to a provision for the Roman Catholic Clergy. He trusted that the proposition would not be persevered in, for he was sure that the results of it would be mischievous. When the measure came to work in the country for some time, and that the minds of the community were accommodated to it, he was sensible that no thing would contribute to make it work kindly and effectually, so much as a provision of this nature. But this was not the opportunity. It would not be fair of the Clergy, it would not be decorous in them to be employed in a negotiation about a provision for themselves, until the rights of their fellow Ca tholics were disposed of; and if a proposition for au allowance to them were to he entertained, until the, final establishment of the Roman Catholic body in'' the possession of all their tights, they would he liable to the imputation of bartering away the interests of the laity, in order to secure an ample provision for themselves. Besides, he did not think a proposition of this nature would come well from any quarter, escept the immediate servants of the Crown. The arrangement for this purpose was not to be put upon the Clergy ; it was a measure of grace and favour, and one which, therefore, ought to emanate from the Executive branch of the State--(llear).= He begged the House to recollect that we were now at a season when the opportunities and facilities existed to the greatest extent, for the fin :s l adjustment of this irn-' portant question. When Elizabeth, with that sound policy which belonged to her councils, attempted to g bring about conciliation, whilst she had the facilities of doing so, the secret machinations of her enemies were at work, and proved too powerful for the ac complishment of her design. In the reigns of her immediate successors, the opportunities were aro longer open, and, Unfortunately, when the Catholics did become well affected to the Monarch, the Mo narch was not well affected to the country, and they became obnoxious for their loyalty. In Ireland, the circumstances of the Roman Catholics were even less favourable. Before the English force was intro duced into' that country, there was a pure, simple religion flourishing there, unadulterated by any of, the corruptions of Popery. Popery was brought" into Ireland by the English. The pure form of Ivor.. ship was dislodged by the English invader, and un happily the cut: uptions and superstitions whie„h were so introduced, found but too copgenial a soil, and had the most unfortuuito (piths. /grand beciulle enNouln alien a; Popish cowry; and contilted so. In tnol sn a 6.. "was a progress of light, and the corruption- of a, 4 , 6 they made Ireland a participator, were ls o . • w '''" the Reformation. NVhat did England do? I a lishe u d b Y having first of all dislodged the p ore reiirl ...rt they then attempted inmvanaiyn.ctfo ti d:slo E d i g it e ri Po sh De na :: The Ti isli were yeseniucctinyltirahioi:epde,inthaPtoib)eyrymebany: -joins.Len--ar. the Kings of England ; they were ' A ged in it t m u o rer re s, pa fr rt o i m cul t a h t e l fiscations, they would aggrandite themselves; ." - A it was not till the Revolution, that the It am „ -11 " tholics of Ireland began' to compare e ° q l u th al r it l y r wj the merits 7i the old and new form of worship. the conduct of the Roman Catholics since tla: Iv -: Revd. lotion to this day ? • During that time the re two rebellions in Scotland, and one insu. • ti ta n England—Meer, hear)4l.---But Leland was 6241 1 ' ratively tranquil, troublesome only to the Gei vews ,r 4 ; p ol l j e c n a t t i b o y n the s to b a r e d p o l t a s rc,e placed the p n o a n t natural a l political ardour the other subjects of the realm. The Rebellion d 1798, was no Roman Catholic rebellion : it as ,; , Protestant rebellion ; Protestants were the le; ; d et ; and promoters of it, and the seat of it was the north " of Ireland. In the year 1796, when a concerted • vasion was apprehended from Fran ce , t h e eta i re 74 the north was organized for the purpo se o f gi,• effect to that invasion, whilst in the Roman C -- I s south, there had not been a single man sworn. op, we not then, Sir," concluded Mr. Plunkett, oi l ,* ' the preamble to this Bill, , that after a due consider o , tion of the situation, dispositions, and conduct efla s Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects, it appear; k it and fitting to communicate to them the lull to Meat of the benefits and advantages of the C en ik; tion, etc.' Ido trtot that the House vi ill, in the s pak of justice and sound policy, at length give to this kiad. hearted, enthusiastic, loyal, and grateful People, t h e blessings they have so long and so patiently desired, and so abundantly merited. I hope that you will not let the propitious occasion escape you, with out conciliating, by an act of justice, the heart s o f 1) many People—of confer: ing upon them one tithe greatest sources of enjoy mesa of which the heart ( a man is capable ; namely, the consciousness of feeling gratitude for the concession of an honourable • lege--the privilege of shedding their blood, sa t giving their hearts to their Sovereign for the defer and support of the. rights and liberties of his king dom."—(Loud and continued cheers). The Order of the day was•then read, and code question that thts Bill be read the second titne, Sir W. SCOTT said, 'that the Bill, had been for some time printed, and in the hands of th e Menges, but it appeared from the speech of the Right Non. Gentleman, that many alterations would be made is the Bill; the variations were of that magnitude, that it appeared the original Bill was in a great degree abandoned ; upon such a Bill it would be a warted time to take the sense of the House. Some explaaa. tion was necessary. ' Mr. PLUNKETT said, that none of The alterations went to the principle 'of the Bill ; the propriety of the alterations he had made would be apparent to an understanding much less enlightened than that of his Right Hon. Friend, and might easily be disclosed is the Committee. Mr. BANKES observed, it was a maxim in alt well-regulated Governments, not to admit to a share of power any body of men who might, from prioci ple, desire the destruction of an important part of the Constitution. Here it was evident that the Ro man Catholics, of whom he wished to speak with all possible respect, must desire the destruction of the Protestant Establishment. It was the opinion of the llomish Church.that there was no salvation . goof her pale ; and, in the words of the present Pope, any communication with heretics was like co: minim between CHRIST and Belial. If no danger was to be feared, why should any exclusions be otopolat and why should the Sovereign be prevented float me joying the same religious liberty that was demanded for Protestant subjects ? The Honourable Credemas (Mr. Plunkett) having laid a very broad preposition s i bad found it necessary to narrow it very meterially. Even 100, or a much smaller numbet of Members in that House, combined for a particular end, most have the power of effecting almost any one object. The Crown, and the Church of England and Scot land, were inviolably Protestant, and he coolg wit I see the efficacy of the proposed securities; as, IA future agitation on the subject could be presell4 there would be a constant tendency to grasp MOM on the part of the Catholics than what had beater ceded. Would not the bulk of the Catholics • to pay to the support of a Church that they heldig abhorrence ? Would no other class of the DO subjects be affected by paying to the support of!" Churches? . An Honourable Gentleman had gui es . notice of an intention to provide for the Catt ole Clergy, But on this subject no anxiety need be irk, as, it the Bill passed, the Catholics would lure& means of helping themselves. To doubt of that, woold be to doubt of the necessary connection air% tween cause and effect. If this combination try, formed agatinst 'the Protestant Establishment, be 44 not see how it could continue in its presesc ape The plan of two Bills was more exceptionable ills_ what had been proposed on former occasions libig would be the state ofthings, should the one Bilherat!' -ing seats in Parliament, pass, and that the CathSku Clergy should not accede to the Bill for reelua g f the intercourse with the See of Rome? In that 011 ! the power would be given to the Catholics, and required securities would be withheld on their par . t!''''i The elective franchise had been granted inoppesalc! to all sound policy ; and had that question come be' fore the Parliament of' Great Britain, he coul d not I have been so blind as not to have opposed it. li n , been said, if wrong repeal it; but it was obviottS Of what had been erroneously conceded could trotioeZ tracted; and that was his objection to grant ~,.'"'" could not be resumed. With reference to the cupc7 a sions they had already made to the Catho lic " would say with an old writer—" Qaod dedi,nove; ~ A N suns revncare: quod relictum ea, non dab°. 1.1, rather maintain himself in his present perilou s I !' tion, than change it for one of sure destruct', Upon that ground he had also oppescd the L If any Member wished to go into a Coloolist eg , account of the English Catholics, than whom a I ; loyal body of men did not exist, he was Duet pause; as the Catholics, if they did not g o, a,. thing, would take nothing. That had appeared g u 'l MOW in the caw of th e Bill of .1813 1 wheat alga* i I C I • IJI .~ be j in (1 is I law oft and Rif Pro] Ore ik! W2S L righ Pra t Oat lly U This the s was 'gent to d e aura ! an. I