Star. — London, England, 1821-02-20 00:00:00

r ,Noble Lord opposite, in the cours e of his speech. I , bi d toec bed upon the Carbonar i . H e said he did no t mo o origin of the Carbonari. He said that secret , uses were not sufficient co amine to justify . ' ; hut if they were not confined to one nay s y s , Dwigrence • but existed in other nations, then that would • k subject to interfere with the affairs of another in which a Revolution had been accomplished i.ltri coese Secret Societies. He wou ld take leave t. w• t one fallacy in this pos i t ion of the Noble aThe Noble Lord had confounded all through ki st s which gave a right to forcible interference, with s h i t which gave a right to remonstrance. And one age against Austria throughout the whole of these a „„ ree dings wa-, that she had never told the people r o f ii ap ies what grievance it was she complained of, to wer asked her to redress it. So far, then, she vis the aggressor in the rupture with Naples. The No Earl, however, in the course of his speech, lo de the circumstance of the Carbonari having taken i n sole part in the Neapolitan Revolution, to be the di st inguishing feature between it and the Spanish eemfution. Now he (Lord Holland) had heard that *Revolution of the Spanish Army was brought a bout by the Carbonari. He did not pretend to have sa l good information as the Noble Earl, but he had heard th i s. The Noble Earl said, that if the spirit waded all countries, that was a proof of its illega lity, He had perhaps forgotten, when he made that N ,eep• g declaration, that the Protestant Religion w as brought about by the means of Secret Assncia signs throughout different parts of Europe. In stating this circumstance with respect to the Spanish Revo beim', be did not mean to say it in disparagement d it. On the contrary, he thought the seeds and principles of liberty were so deeply seated in it, that it was impossible for any lover of liberty, or the wel fare and happiness of his fellow.creaturee, not to be we ll disposed towards it. And although the Neapo litans might not have had those opportunities which this nation had possessed, of, being acquainted with that Constitution, and of knowing its beauties, still in adopting it they were equally unacquainted with any other. In adverting to the subject of the merit's or demerits of the Neapolitan Revolution, he could not help alluding to the Manifesto of Russia on that sib jest. It was a strong objection, he thought, to a good Constitution, and to power well exerted, that it de pmded upon the manner in which it was attained.— It was more strange when it was considered from whose mouth it came. If the freedom of political Constitutions was to be objected to, surely the objec tifies came but ungracefully from the reigning Em peror of Russia, from a Prince reeking with the blood of own father !—(Hear, hear). A Prince on whom the Crown of his dominions had devolved by an act of assassination, was not to be regarded as an oracle of morality ; nor, unless men were utterly degraded and brutalized, would they consent to take their no-' tions of public morality from such a quarter. Yet we found that the league against Naples was justified by references to the interests of morality and of reli gion. The Emperor of Russia, that Member of the Holy League— The Earl of HARROWBY rose to order. Ile strongly reprehoeded the language used by the Noble Lord respecting the Sovereign of Russia, or indeed any Sovereign. It was contrary to every principle d decency in their proceedings—( Hear, hear). Lord HOLLAND resumed. He was glad to hear that speaking of the moral guilt of any one, espe cially of a Sovereign, was so indecent. He must say, that when he was talking of a band of individuals, who were taking means directly subversiie of the fuedamental laws of this country, to keep down the liberty of the world, he thought it strange for the Lord President of the Council to call to order in that House a Peer who was expressing his opinion on the conduct of one of that band, the Czar of the Musco vites!—(Hear, hear). arty part a that league do 1 by its pusillanimity, or :by its • temporising conduct, I admit of the controul of arbitruey power where it has no just right, then he would not be surprised to see it sue of the Standing Orders of that House, that the j conduct of the great Monarch of the North of Eu rope must not be touched upon. Re was sorry to discompose the Noble Earl, but he must state, that the accession of the present Emperor of Russia was owing to the murder of his father, and he must say, that not one, since Peter the Great, had descended from that Throne without violence being committed on his person—( Hear hear). He did, therefore, say, that when he found such a Government not content with expressing its disapprobation, but chusing to read lectures to the rest of Europe, it must at least allow others to speak freely on the subject of its power.— He should like to know what was the vicinity of Rus sia or of Prussia to Naples, that this country was not equally concerned in it ? It might be contrary to the orders of that House, but the feeling pervaded the breast of every Englishman—(Hear, hear).—Another objection he had to their proceedings, arose from a retrospective contemplation of what took place at the commencement of a more bloody and more disastrous struggle for liberty than ever before had evinced it self in the world. He alluded to the French Revo lution, at the commencement of which they saw the same disposition to disclaim interference displayed. letter of the same nature as the declaration of the )oreign Secretary, was written to the Empress of lussia. The Speech from the Throne at that period , breathed the same anxiety to maintain peace; there' , was a recommendation for a partial reduction of the Army, and the same manifestations of a permanent peace. But in what did it end ? In taking, even -I,ltally, 'a part, such as we had not the courage, or olather the audacity, to avow—(Hear, hear, hear), Imlineles, certainly, was not so important a Power to •Itie European system as France, and some persons *might imagine that an outrage on its independence therefore comparatively unimportant. But the Wagon of Naples originated in the same spirit—it ;Vas the offspring . of the same policy which led to the Alabination a j gainst France. It was, if he might so •Nfilik, a cab o the same litter; it bare about it all the . marks of its lineage and extraction: "Sig eantlins cantos similes, sic matribusilatclos." Let what might take place under such circumstances, Obe British people would, thank Goo, still express their w liminients; nor wet ld their attention be withdrawn • • or, confused by any of the production s of the F or ei gn I ` - ligertinent, A Noble Baron, who was some w h a t '''fitriabte in the part he took in that House, had put a - ingenious question to him, the other day. It • 111 as, whether he was prepared to go to war? observ ing, that if be %vertu% be could not propose to take any part in the contest between the belligerent Powers. every endeavour should be exerted to effect an agree- 1 He confessed, there was much logical acuteness in ment in Parliament with the People on all great this way of settling the question, and perhaps it questions of policy—(Hear, hear)—and to revive, if inis 4 ht accord with \the notion of Lord Castlereagh, possible, mutual confidence between the Government which he had spread throughout Europe—that what and the People, without which it would be in vain, they had on paper, they had in truth; but was there in any case, to remonstrate; without which we could nothing between man and man? No one could doubt have no strength, and could only degrade our chti tliat one great point in the Ways and Means of Aus- rector and expose our weakness to the world—(Hear). ma was, that she had great Britain in her pocket!— Lord CALTIIORPE thought that pledges and He could conceive some• Minister of some German security ought to have been given at the conclusion Power, who -had received this paper of the Foreign of the war, and particular care taken to prevent such Secretary, calculated to inspire so great a ieverence an interference as was now attempted by the Allied for his talents, before it was published. He could Powers. Burdened as this country was with the fancy that he saw that pleasant German face with a fruits of war, the fruits of peace ouslit to have been smile on it, whilst perusing this unintelligible stuff, secured to her. The necessity, of a disavowal which and deriving new comfort when he found by that the Circular proved, was evidence that sufficient I able composition that there still was a " moral foresight had not been employed to prevent a misun strength" and a " physical power" in the Holy Al- derstanding-. He did not wish to speak harshly of liance. In alluding to our foreign politics, he could Austria; but he thought it incumbent upon this assure the House that he did not mean to disparage, country, looking to the commanding situation she especially in the presence of the Noble Duke oppo- occupied in the world, to endeavour to restrain her site (the Duke of Wellington), the feats achieved by from embarking upon those measures which her pre our armies abroad. Never, he believed, did any sol- sent distracting solicitudes for the welfare of Naples diers contribute so much to the glory of a great were likely to engage her in —(A laugh and cheers). country ! Money and character were necessary to Earl GREY replied. He was not satisfied with the maintain our ascendancy on the Continent of Europe. explanation given by the Noble Earl. Had a strict Character and influence had been at work to that neutrality been observed, he would not so much have effect ever since the reign of Henry VIII. and aueen complained ; but in expressing disapprobation of the Elizabeth. Queen Elizabeth, who for her extraordi- Revolution, at a moment when the effect of that was nary wisdom and perception to her own interests, to strengthen and encourage the Allies to proceed made her the greatest woman that ever interfered in against the country they threatened, was departing politics, saw the use of keeping up her influence on from the strict neutrality which Ministers professed it the Continent, which she accomplished by making was their intention to observe. If fair neutrality was herself the rallying post of the Protestant Religion. intended, the usual friendly intercourse ought to have The Carbonari, who had beets instrumental in the been maintitined. This, however, appeared to have late Revolution, had their origin in the policy and ceased. He would now a±, whether Sir W. A'Court measures of the Governments opposed to France.— was our accredited Minister to the Government of They had their origin in secret Societies established Naples? 13ut if this were so, more was still wanting; in most countries for the purpose of shaking off the it was necessary that an accredited Minister from yoke of France. They were encouraged in Italy, he Naples should be hem. The Noble Earl said Count believed, for that express purpose—and he believed. Ludolph was an accredited Minister fiord Naples.— with the exception of Austria, there was not a Power, He wished to address the Crown, to communicate in including the Czar of Russia himself, that was not formation on this subject. He would ask if it were desirous to give,his subjects a free Constitution. He nut notorious that Count Ludolph had been recalled admitted that carehad been taken not to let the %tit- by the present Government of Naples, and that the ferers imagine that the Government of England in- Prince Cimitile, sent to England as an accredited terested itself too much in their affairs. Throughout Minister from the new Government, had not been Italy, so far from its being supposed that the Go- ..received at this Court? This was a breach of vernment of England interested itself for the People, friendly intercourse, which, if Naples were not a it was generally believed (he hoped the idea was a weak State, would be resented as an insult on her false one), that it was opposed to their wishes, and was character and independence. He wished, if this quoted (he spoke from what he knew) as most ini- country were to be neutral, that an equal measure mical to its own subjects, and to those of every other of her regard should be dealt out to both coun: country. He would ask the Noble Lord what in- tries.—He then adverted to the difference of Naples duced Austria to interfere on the occasion ? He and Sicily, and with reference to them remarked, wopld ask if any man, who knew anything of, the that the utmost the Allies could have a right to proceedings of that Power, could have the least do was, to take part with Sicily against Naples.— doubt that the motives which swayed it on this mei. If the Carbonari were found actively spreading mis-, sion sprung from an apprehension that the establish- chief and endangering the Governments of other coun ment of a free Government in the vicinity of her ter- tries, the utmost the Allies could in reason demand ritory would be likely to endanger her dominions, would be security against the continuance of these from the aversion it was calculated to inspire, for the practices. The sects described under that name had. yoke under which her subjects in Italy now groaned ? probably sprung up during a period of general op , That there was reason for such an alarm he mould pression ; it was, however, little likely, that they cor not deny. The principles on which the Au.trian Go- responded with the malcontents of other countries, vernment acted, though, in his opinion, an internal after the circumstances which called them into and a diabolical principle, he must still admit to be existence had ceased; and still less likely was it that consistent and rational. This was his sincere opinion, they were encouraged by the Government, which for unless Austria changed the system of her Govern- was the only case that could prove a right to inter ment in Italy, he, in the event of a tree Government fere on the part of the Allies. Ministers had said being established in Naples, would not give five yews they were not called Upon to interfere, anal they purchase for the peace of her dominions. As a spec- wished not to prejudgethe question. He would ask, tator and a citizen of the world, he rejoiced in this if this was tot a questie'i closely connected with dill prospect. But he would say to Austria, " Avett the law of nations and those principles on which the impending evil, by improving the condition of your peace of Europe must depend? If, then, Ministers own people, and not by making that of others worse would not now prejudge the question, when were than it would otherwise be." The Noble Lord con- they ever to judge of it at all? He would say, that eluded by expressing his ardent and confident hope, when the question first came before them, that was that those who attempted to stop the tide of freedom the time when they ought to have judged of it. When and improvement, which had set in so strongly and were they to judge of it now ? After Austria had over so auspiciously, would themselves be overwhelmed run Naples? After the violation of public law had in the torrent—(Hear, heat-)—and that the spirit been committed? After all was over, then were they which manifested so many auspicious indications of to judge what was proper to be done, instead of coming its soundness and strength, a null fully accomplish forward in the first instance to prevent a scandalous its object, by renovating corrupted States, anti esta- violation of public law, as the Noble Earl admitted bushing the liberty and security of rations—(Hear). it would be, if unaccompanied by those circumstances ' Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, that having con- which seemed to justify it in the present case?— sidered the speech of the Noble Earl (Liverpool) op- Here, however, the Noble Earl, not to prejudge the posite, and the conduct of Ministers, he was of a dit- question, was to sit still, with his hands behind him, ferent opinion from the Noble Baron who had last till all the mischief was done. This was the picture spoken. He thought the Circular cot only justified of.the miserable policy by which this country was to but beneficial. He regretted that the authority of be degraded. With respect to the change of Govern the Noble Lnrd had been given to a revolution meta at Naples, it was to be remembered that the Go brought about by the military: We ought to have vernment had continued to be administered in the protested against such a revolution, because a Go- name of the Sovereign, and therefore the change did vernment established by the military had no secu- not disqualify us from continuing a friendly inter rity. The Government of Naples had been for the course. If he recollected right, it was England that last few years as mild as its Constitution admitted, had first set the example of placing the Vicar-Gene though he had himself occasion to see that the Go ral in the place of the King, when a Constitution was vernment was bad. Had there not been an eztraor- given to Sicily from this country by Lord William dinary coincidence in the time of the revolution and Bentinck. The King of Naples at that time objected the return of the heir apparent from Sicily, who had to the Constitution proposed, and so the Vicar-Ge been since at the head of the Government? From this neral was named in his place, to get over the diffi the Noble Lord contended that Naples did not con- culty. If these exceptions were to be taken, it was time under the same Sovereign. The disapproba- but fitting that they should be taken fairly. He tion of this country' would have been beneficial, by was prepared to admit, that when a Government inducing Naples to shew that, however impure the like that of England remonstrated With foreign source of its Government might be, it was fitted for Powers, it ought to be prepared, in possible cases, the ordinary relations between State and State. The to support its remonstrances by force of arms.— presence of a British fleet, his Lordship argued, was It was for those who were for ever talking of the necessary for the protection of British interests and successful termination of the late war—who contended. property. He agreed with the Noble Earl (Grey) that the country never stood so high as at present— that the principles of the Allies were odious and in- who told them every day, that, through the policy consistent with the independence of any State. They Ministers bad pursued, the influence of England was Were founded on the monstrous idea that Govern- more universally acknowledged in every Court of meats were not to be conducted-for the benefit of the Europe than ever it had been before—it was for those governed, but according to the interest alid pleasure who held this language to explain hoW it was that our of the Governors. Our refusal to join had disarmed power had declined, till we were so miserably re the alliance of onedialf of its force in the very outset. duceds that we had no longer the ability to support, Austria could only direct its efforts to the putting with arms, the remonstrances we might feel it our ,down of the sect of the Carbonari, and deiCand only duty to make—(llear, hear).—Unhappily, even since that the government of Naples should not be in their the commencement of this debate, he had learnt, from hands. fhe Noble Lord (Holland) might write a a quarter to which lie could not but give credit, that remonstrance with the most classical put ity of style, the turn things would take was no longer doubtful, but it would have no effect unless written with the but that the die was cast--(Hear).—He had learnt, sword. Foreign Powers were not ignorant that our from a source which made it impossible to doubt the distress and inability to go to war had arisen from 1 information, that the Austrian army had already our warlike exeutidris, and they would therefore neg- ,' passed the Po, and was advancing upon Naples in feet any remonstrance on our part. The less we three separate columns—(llear, hear). —The King of said and did the better, unless we were prepared to' Naples had published a Proclamation,- ordering his take a decided part. Feeling, as he did, the distresses subjects to receive the Austrians as friends, dissolv and complaints of the People; feeling that the confi- ing the Parliament, and promising to give the Nea deuce of the People had been one of the great means politans a Constitution on his return!—(Hcar, hear.) of our influence before in Europe, his most anxious Such was the result of the journey of a Monarch, wish *as, that every attention should be paid by whom it had been thought proper to treat as if he Parliament I t to the complaints of the People; that were in a state of restraint and compulsion while he vac among his own subjects; and who, it was now but too evident, must be perfectly free and unin -1 fluenced in his new connections with the Al:ied Sove reigns !—(A rough. and cries of " hear'')—And now he would Ask the NoWe B 41"011-.-10fli: ; 4 to the history -of Europe-aqo the character of the House of Austria —(Hear)—to the present state of the Continent ; and, in short, to the general dispositions and interests of those Powers which composed what he would call the State of Europe—he would ask him whether the connection of Naples and Au triirwould not produce consequences that, sooner or later, would' plunge all .Europe into a new war ?—(Hear, hear).—And then, he asked again, what would they gain if they, in order to avoid a war, did that which in itself entailed a war? Why, they would procure to this country all the disgrace which it was proper and not less certain would ensue from a pusidanimous teluctance to meet these Powers; but, unhappily, this erroneous policy was a defect Which it was too well known was one of the distinctions of his Majesty's Ministers ; indeed their whole conduct had been marked by it. Upon the whole of this case be should, in the first place, have been satisfied if that neutrality, which it was professed to observe towards Naples, lour been a strict neutrality. Surely, in the amicable relations womaintained with Spain, we should have had rea son to remonstrate, and might have remonstrated with the Allies, if any attempt had been made to put down by force, without any other necessity than that which arose from their own opinions the new Spa nish Constitution. Here we had an example in point. What was our conduct with regard to Spain, and what its consequences? The Noble Earl (Liverpwil) might recollect that his Noble Friend (L. aal Hol land) put a question to him, with respect to the Me inorial of the Court of St. Petersburgh, relative to the Revolution in Spain. The Noble Earl protested that a remonstrance upon the part of Government had been made against it. His (Earl Grey's) Noble Friend was satisfied with this explanation; and nu motion was made against that remonstrance in that House. But what was more important was, that nei ther in that House, nor by the Allied Powers, was any feeling manifested against Spain upon that occasion. It was yet more important, that none of the disastrous . consequences had followed which had been antici pated ny the Noble Earl. The House proceeded in the same peaceable manner, and abstained from en deavouring to impose on Spain a Government diffe rent from that which she herself had chosen. But Russia, in her Memorial, declared that it was impos sible she could communicate with the parties who had effected that revolution ; she described them as mutinous soldiers by whose efforts it had beer. ac complished, and till those soldiers were punished, she declared that she could not communicate with Spain—(Hear, hear). Now, he supposed, that he too might be called to order for making a disrespectful allusion to one of the Allied Powers ; but he nould say, that against this very doctrine he might produce the instance of the revolution in Russia, by which, without employing any harsher phrase, the present Emperor was raised to the Throne—(Hear, hear). Could it he denied that hew as assisted to that Ihi one in consequence of the murder of his father ?—(Hear, heart. Might not a similar excuse inni this com munication have been =hie by any Power ? Might she not have said to Russia—" A revolution has been effected by a foul and atrocious murder ; you have a new Emperor; and although we have no rie ; ht to dictate to you, yet no communication ..an be held with you till expiation has-been ma. e for that murder, and the perpetrators of it have been punished l''... Did not all 'this prove that we had had one 1 inguage for the weak, and another for the strong?—(h ear). When the country was able to defend itself, none of feted to molest it; when it was in a state too feeble to resist, all attempted to oppress her—(Hear, /tear). lie still thought the justification offered by the Noble Lord of his own conduct was most unsatisfactory.— The course pursued by Minis:ers upon the present unwarrantable enterprize against Naples, had . de graded the character of the nation, and had done more to destroy the first principles of the independ ence of nations, and the dearest interests of king doms, than anything else within his memory or know ledge. The Noble Earl concluded by saying, that in what he perceived to be the present temper of the House, he would not press his motion to a division. Lord ELLEN BOR.OUG Il explained, and the clue's, lion was then put and negatived. The further consideration of the Queen's Annuity Bill was, on the motion of Lord LtvEaroot., deferred till to-morrow (chili day).—Adjourned at Eleven &Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Person from the Commissioners for Redeeming the Na tional Debt presented an Account of the Sums of Money appro priated to that purpose during the year . ending the Sth of January, 1821. Several Petitions were presented for and against the Hull . Shipping Pour Rate Bill. Mr. S. COX, from the Committee appointed to try the merits of the Petition agaiust the return of W. Gossarr, Esq. as Mem ber for Truro, reported the opinion of the Committee, that tLe Sitting Member was duly elected; but that the Petition was not frivolous nor vexatious. A Petition was presented from the Land-owners and holders of the County of Limerick, complaining of the present Agricul tural Distress; and praying the House to adopt some measure to regulate a mode of taking the average. Sir 13. PARNEI.L brought in a Bill for Improving the Road to Dublin, by way of Shrewsbury and Holyhead.—Read a first, and ordered to be read a second time. Mr. JAMES postponed his motion on the subject of employ ing the Military at Carlisle, during the late Election, till Tuesday the 27th inst. Mr. T. WILSON presented a Petition from the Merchants of the Port of London engaged in the Russian Trade, praying, that no alteration should take place in the present Timber Laws. Petitions were presented from Selby, Shields, Dover, Gains borough, Great Yarmouth, Hull, Scaruorough, Newcastle-upon. Tyne, 3sc. against the Hull Shipping I our Rate Bill. A Petition was presented from the Inhabitant. of Basingstoke, praying the House to enquire into the present distressed state of the Country. Sir IL PARNELL gave notice, that he , would on Thursday move for the appointment of a Select Committee to enquire into the state of the Linen Trade in Ireland. ►l'he Defaulters ou the Ballot of Friday last wire called over, and ordered to attend the Ballot on Tuesday, the 13th March. Mr. CALVERT moved for an Account of the total Number of Acres of Land under . Cultivation for Hops in Great Britain, during the last 14 years, distis.guishing the numbers of acres in each year.—Ordered. • . - The Malt Duty and Transfer of Grants Bills were read a third time, and passed. . Sir M. W. liIDLEY wished to know when the Secretary to the Treasury intended to move for a renewal of the present Glass Duty Acts,which would expire in July next, and whether it was intended to renew them in their present form ? Mr. LUSH INGTON said, the subject had been under the consideration of the Excise one Treasury for some time, but no decision had, been come to yet upon the subject. Mr. SYKLS said, the Hull roors' Rate 1131.11 stood for a se- I . I