Star. — London, England, 1821-02-03 00:00:00

now some steps would be taken to inquire into and punish its authors. This was a rational request, and the people of Liverpool had too severely felt the, shock of that outrage, to pass it over in silence. He' did. not now inquire whether the Meeting at Man chester was legally or illegally dispersed ; all that appeared was, that a great multitude of unarmed, dthnceless persons were assembled together; that they were rode in upon and massacred by an armed force—(Hear); that the Magistrates who advised that measure were, upon an e.e parte statement, thanked for their conduct by the Crown; and who that looked at all these things could be so insensible as to say that no inquiry was necessary ?—(Hear.) With regard to the next point, namely, the reduction of the taxes, he (Mr. Creevey) had, early in the Ses sion, given an opinion on that subject; and he could only say, that Liverpool felt the pressure of these taxes as much, perhaps, as any other town in the kingdom. He hoped Petitions•to the same effect would be coming in from every town, for it was but mockery to talk of relief while such grinding taxes remained —(Hear, hear). The House should, ac cording to the prayer of the Petition, do its duty, and see what reductions might be made in the wan ton and unnecessary expenditure of the State. But it was said by the Honourable Member for Abing don, that when we had so extensive and multiplied a public debt, taxes should necessarily be paid. 'l'o this he would' answer simply that they could not. The country would, one day or other, be brought to that pass that iecould afford no more taxes; and he would now put it to the House to say whether it was not better at once to cut up the evil, than by putting off the evil day, .to have it come with more certain ruin. He trusted the House would overflow with the complaints of the country on this subject. He was now come to the last prayer in the Petition, whereby the Petitioners sought some Reform in that House. The debate of Friday night was a proof how much Reform was wanted in the House of Com mons. There was seen a majority voting not only against the People, but against their own recorded opinion —(Hear, hear). And Liverpool came with strong claims for a share in the legislation. There were upwards of 100,000 persons in the town, but of these there were only 2,500 freemen. It must be admitted, that this was a very imperfect representa tion of such a place. Freedom of the town was only to be obtained by apprenticeship, or by the sons of " freemen; so that strangers coming in there, no mat ter what their property was, could never obtain a franchise. Of the 2.500 freemen, of course, many were under the influence of the Corporation, and more from, the contracts which Government entered into with them from time to time. Add to these the number who were the immediate servants of Govern ment, and the residuum would be small indeed. In conclusion, the Honourable Member contended that the House ought to give such a Representation to the great trading town of Liverpool as would give to its rank and property sufficient influence. Mr. GLADSTONE rose to set the Honourable Member right, as to some facts which he had stated. It was not true that there were but 2,500 freemen in Liverpool, for by the Town Clerk's Return, there ap peared to be upwards of 5,000. The Corporation was not under the influence complained of by the Honourable Member. The Government contracts were managed in the most impartial manner. There were many very respectable persons in Liverpool who disagreed in the sentiments of this Petition. He could say that the great maim ity of the respectable inhabitants of Liverpool approved of the conduct of Ministers. The Honourable Member then went into a history of a Meeting, at which a Loyal Address was agreed to, and contended, that such Address spoke the general feelings of the people of Liverpool. Mr. CREEVEY, in explanation, said, that but 2,500 freemen had voted at the last Election: He denied that the Loyal Address spoke the general sen timents, for the day after, at a Meeting convened by the Mayor, an Address much less complimentary to Ministers, was agreed to.. At this second Meeting, the Honourable Member over the way (Mr. Glad stone) was afraid to chew his face—(A laugh). 'Mr. GLADSTONE said, that the Loyal Address in less than three days obtained 4,000 signatures, and this was pretty good evidence of the .sentiments of the people there.—The Petition was then laid upon the table, and ordered to be printed. A similar Petition was presented by Lord SEF TON from Croydon, in Surrey.—The Petition was laid on the table. PETITION OP THE MERCHANTS, &C. OP LONDON. • Mr. J. SMITH said, he held in his hand a Peti tion to which lie invited a close attention from the House. It was the Petition of the Bankers, Mer chants, and Traders of the City of London, to the number of upwards of 5,000 lignatures, and though he would not say that such men had a great er claim —nay, perhaps, not so great as those in poverty and obscurity, upon the House, yet, if property was at all evidence of talent or integrity, this Petition was as much entitled to the attention of the House as any that had ever been presented to Parliament--(Hear). To the prayer of the Petition, he was sure the House would lend a willing ear. It respectfully but ears nestly besought them to take immediate and decisive steps for allaying the ferment at present existing in the public mind—a prayer than which nothing could be more legitimate, and to which he (Mr. Smith) . gave his entire concurrence. The Petitioners then proceeded to make three. or four observations, in sisting in the outset,- that in attachment and devotion to the Constitution of this country, they would yield to no set of men, and professing that their great wish was the maintenance of the institutions of the country—(Hear). They then gave an opinion, that in a time of severe and trying distress, the People were loyal and attached tcr the Constitution a and, if instances of a contrary spirit should anywhere occur, the laws at present in force were quite sufficient to repress them--(Hear). Being (as bankers and mer chants) necessarily interested in the preservation of public credit and general prosperity, they do not conceal but that they.deplore the depressed state of .th e country, produced, as it appeared to them, by no other cause than the agitation in the public mind, is consequence of the proceedings against her Majesty the Queen—proceedings which had. been charac • mixed by that House as " derogatory to the dignity of die. Crown, and injurici,us tp. tlie best interests of the People"— (Hear). They reprobated all the first steps taken in that unhappy affair, as wanton, and not called for by any reasonable necessity—(Mar). They Likewise condemned the persevering in them as disgraceful, when they were to be supported by the most detestable evidence that was ever be fore offered in a Court of Justice—(lkar, hear). But Petitioners did not mean to deny, but that if any necessity existed for the proceeding—if, for instance, the succession to tho Crown was endangered, the Ser vants of the Crown would be justified in paying the penalty of present unpopularity,, in order to secure future peace. They could not, however, shut their eyes against the. truth—they saw the Ministers rush ing advi,edly and deliberately into the measure, and was not their conduct aggravated by their inattention to the warning given them by an Hon. Friend of his, the Member for Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce), who pointed out the dreadful effects of the evidenceon the morals of the country ? Ministers had many duties, but surely it was not amongst the least of these that they should keep a watchful eye over the morals of the country ?—(Hear, hear). Having then stated the objects of this Petition, 'be would now say a word as to its history and progress. Not long since, a number of Gentlemen of high respectability thought fit to meet together at a Coffee-house in the City, in order to display their loyalty, but without giving any pub lic notice, or indeed any notice at all, except to a few of their personal friends. At that Meeting a Decla ration was agreed to, and with its sentiments he (Mr. J. Smith) entirely agreed, and so did all these Peti tioners ; but they thought a dry declaration of loy alty, in such times as the present, was not enough— they would say much more. However, the way in which this Meeting was assembled, and the way in .which the Declaration was got up, was taken excep tion to by a great majority of the wealthy men of the City, and they thought naturally that no set of men had a right to impose their own sentiments as those of so large and respectable a body as that o£ the Mercantile Interest of the City of London. When, therefore, a public notice was conspicuously affixed, purporting to say, that the Declaration of the Mer chants, Bankers, and Traders, of the City of London," 'was lying open for signatures, the Petitioners thought it high time to state publicly what their real opinions were. The Loyal Declaration certainly purported to be what it was not, namely, the organ of the senti ments of the London Merchants: it was simply that of a few individuals; and if they had confined it to themselves, no one could have quarrelled with them, 'and he (Mn Smith) would not have to present this Petition to-night. The Petitioners, therefore, called a Public Meeting of the Merchants, Bankers, and Traders, at the Mansion House, where they proposed their measures openly and avowedly, not like a pri vate Meeting, which might be always moulded to meet the wishes of a few, or which might be called together at the suggestion of the Government. The Meeting then took place in o public manner at the Mansion House, and the Chief Magistrate of the City presided at it. He (Mr. Smith) moved a series of Resolutions, embracing the principal heads of this Petition ; and though be was unwilling to aggravate the irritation which.prevailed, yet he was obliged to vindicate the conduct of the Meeting, by stating, that it was the most numerous assembly of well-dressed persons which had, perhaps, ever been seen in Lon don. The proceedings began quietly enough ; but when he came to propose the third Resolution, re specting the Queen, there commenced a scene of uproar and confusion which he had never before seen equalled. He was strongly inclined to think, that this interruption was , concerted—(Hear, hear)—and that those who had snugly voted themselves loyal, thought themselves bound to put an extinguisher on . all public discussion. Indeed, some of these Gentle- Men did at one time hold a doctrine that all Public Meetings created disturbance, and, in order to sup ' -. port that doctrine, they thought it incumbent on them to come there and breed a riot-....(Laughter). That it' was a concerted thing he was snare iaclined to believe for this reason; that all was quiet -until. the Queen's name was mentioned, and manyofthoserwho made' the disturbance concurred with him (Mr. Smith) in• some of his views• respecting those proceedings. But it was clear Ministers might know, whatever. success they had in another place, they never could carry it through this House, as witnesses could not be exa mined at the Bar upon oath. All that Ministers then could have in view, was to throw an unfounded aspersion on the Queen. He contended that there was no reason for saying 'everything had not been fairly done; for the Lord Mayor did all in his power to preserve order. He had heard of a Protest, but as that was signed by only one individual, he appre hended it would not have much weight in that House. The worthy Baronet, Member for the City, did not sign it; and, indeed, on the day in question, he dis played the most perfect good humour, as he always does—(Laughter). There was; therefore, no grounds for objecting to the mode in which this Petition was prepared; and he trusted the House Would give it that consideration which it deserved—(Near, hear). Sir WILLIAM CURTIS denied that the Meeting at the London Coffee-house, was improperly called; and be asserted, that for property and integrity the signatures to the Loyal Declaration there were not to be surpassed. He did not see why the Petitioners should not sign the Declaration. He himself had signed it, because it exprissed unshaken love to the Constitution and the Monarchy, and because he thought it . right that certain classes in the country should be taught that there were men in it who were determined at any risk to stand up for the mainte nance of the throne and the institutions of the coun try—(Hear). Such were the motives that prompted him to sign a Declaration, which both then and now he considered a milk and water Declaration—as he would consider every declaration of loyalty, which did not express openly and decidedly, strong appro bation of she conduct of his Majesty's Ministers. He sought no concealed place—no hole or corner to de dare his sentiments. He, as he always did, .came forward to, vindicate his principles, to tell the world what were his opinions without fear. He strongly felt that it was incumbent on every man in the coun try who wished well •to its best interests, and saw that the preservation of the Monarchy was deeply connected with their interests, to come forward and cheer up his Majesty by assurances of attachment to his throne—(Laughter).. With, respect to wh a t oc curred at the Meeting in the Egyptian Hall,.he could only say, that be reinembeted well that his Friend opposite (Mr. J. Smith). was hard with great attention ; te never witnessed, at a Public Meeting any person being better heard. But it sometimes 'happened., that whea an assembly ditTnot like any part of a speech e ahey would express their disappro bation; and certainly when the Hon. Gentleman did mention the name of the Queen, there was much disapprobation expressed, There was, upOn the sub ject of her Majesty, much difference of opinion out of doors as well as in that 'House, and in his opinion there was a greater majority unfavourable to her out of doors than there was within !—(llear, and a laugh from the Opposition). As soon as the lion. Geode man finished his speech, in the delivery of which he was heard, as well as he could expect, he (Mr. Smith) came forward and proposed the first Resolution, which was carried. He (Sir W. Curtis') then offered himself to the attention of the Meeting, which he begged to say consisted of as well dressed and as good looking men as he had ever-seen at a Meeting of the kind. The moment, however, that he at tempted to speak, there was a tumult raised from a certain quarter of the assembly, and not a word could be heard. He assured that House that he came fdr ward in the Egyptian Hall, as quietly and as tern perately as he did at that moment to address the House of Commons. But the assembly would not hear him, and the business of the day was so dis turbed by tumult, that it was impossible for any one. to be heard. What did this prove, but that it was impossible on any occasion where the feelings are deeply agitated, and especially where there was much difference of opinion, for so large a body as the Merchants, Bankers, and Traders of the city of Lon don, to come to any positive conclusion upon any questfon. It was for this reason that he had all along objected to the holding of a• Public Meeting. Find ing it impossible to obtain a hearing at this Meeting, and seeing, moreover, several stout, hale Gentlemen sit tranquilly by, without attempting to come for ward, and who he verily believed would not stir a step though. the State were going to pot!—seeing that, he thought it the best way to retire at once.— For his part he believed there never was such a scene, —shouting, clamour, and noise of all sorts, prevented anything like a discussion taking place, and at length it came to a battle royal! " There we were," said the Hon. Baronet, " all on one side"—( Laughter, and cheers from the Opposition).—" There I was at my post, as I shall always be when my Country and King demand my presence." But in looking over the names affixed to the Requisition, in consequence of which this Meeting was held, he read the names of two Hon. Gentlemen, one of whom be believed had been, about this time last year, or earlier, quite another way, as he signed a Declaration dissimilar in its objects to those of this Meeting. Another Gen tleman, Mr. George Grenfell, the son of an lion. Member was one of the Requisitionists for a Meet ing in ISIS, for quite a dissimilar purpose also. Now he really did not see any objection to these Gentle men at least coming for ward and signing the Loyal Declaration. All that he objected to in it was its milk and water character; and he trusted that the next framer of a Loyal Declaration, would take care to give it a more decided tone than could be traced in the present. With respect to the Petition now pre sented, the great objection he had to it was, that it was mot the Petition of the Meeting from which it professed to emanate. There was no question put that it should be adopted, and certainly if it was put it was only heard by a few persons in the Meeting, and therefore could not be said to be agreed to by that Meeting. He did not give this from any per sonal observation, but he had it from those who were present, and who protested against the Lord Mayor's decision that the Petition was carried by a majority. Mr. ASTELL said that as the person alluded to by the Hon. Baronet, as having signed a Loyal De claration fifteen months ago, and having been also a requisitionist for the convening of the late Meeting at the Egyptian Hall, he hoped he would be allowed to say a few words against the charge of inconsi,t ency then brought forward •ugainst him. Without dwelling upon the obvious circumstance that his in consistency was totally irrelevant to the qaestion before the House, he would be permitted-to say, that admitting that his conduct was inconsistent, yet I surely a man might not refuse to be influenced by new light, which time and circumstances might de- : , velope? It was true he had attended a Private Meet ing fifteen months ago, at Grocers' Hall, for the purpose of expressing satisfaction at the passing of the Bills then under the consideration of Parliament. But these Bills having passed, he did not see why Private Meetings should be any longer encouraged, as there was no longer any reason to be afraid of' that which alone could justify Private Meetings— namely, the prObability of interruption from persons' who bad no right to be present. Now, be would' say, that the Meeting at the Egyptian Hall would have been perfectly quiet, but for the Hon. Baronets friends. He had a great motive for wishing to pro- mote that Meeting, because the Loyal Declaration was affected to be the Declaration of the Merchants, Bankers, Traders, &c. of the City of London. 'lt was incumbent, therefore, on those who did not yield in loyalty to the declarationists, to come forward and state what, in their opinions, was the true cause of all the agitation in which the country was involved, and of the dangers that threatened the Monarchs.. Tbis opinion was expressed in the Petition agreed to at that Meeting, which, until the interruption on the part of. certain of the Him. Baronet's friends, was as moderate and temperate as he had ever seen. In lahe prayer 4nd sentiments of that Petition he most cordially united, and trusted that it would make a due impression on the feelingi of the House. Lord MILTON was sorry to hear the lion. Baronet I declare his opinion, that he nce f or th it was not be expected that the real sentiments of the Merchants and Traders of the City of London, upon any -ques tion which agitated their feelings, could be collected at a Public Meeting. But the Worthy Baronet had let the cat out of the bag. The worthy Baronet com plained of the moderation of the Loyal Address, fur be thought that, in these time s , hi s M a j esty ou ght to be cheered up, and added his opinion of the neces sity of approving the measures of Ministers._ Now it must surely be gratifying to his Majesty to •find, that when some men talked of cheering his Majesty up, they.** Meant that Ministers should be sup ported •in their measures. HOsiever, in his (Lord Milton's) opinion, nothing coulcibe more oppu`site thanssupporting his Majesty and approving the mea-1 sures-Of 'Ministers: • . • Mr. WELLS defended those who signed the Loyal - 1 Declaration, of which number he was One. This Declaration was as much a Dcclaxition of the scuti. meats of those who signed it, a's if it had to at a Public Meeting ; and, indeed, so far f rom being a Private Meeting, the door was open t o one, and no one was prevented entering who. whilst at the Mansion House distinctions He went to that Meeting, and was questioned,. you a Requisitionist?" and, on his answe r i ox • negative, he was refused admission to the it was not until he stated himself to b e to the object of the Meeting, that he was , ,gain admission. Mr. Alderman WOOD said, his worthy, the Hon. Baronet, was not exclud!J, for h e . 4 conspicuous situation, in the very front of th e ings, for half an hour before the Lord Mar the Chair. With respect to the decision on' tion, he was convinced it was carried by of five to one. He was also certain that th e Mayor was anxious to accommodate every o ft. ' whatever party he might be ; and as to the • clamour which prevailed on the Mtn. 'seining himself, he would ask the Don. ! they he was not himself the occasion of it? at ther the clamours of his friends and those mies would not produce the same effect at any Meeting in London ? Mr. BARING said, the friends of the " Baronet were those who had caused the, and so far had they carried their efforts, ti„ i/ even prevented the Hon. Baronet hits se , He believed, but for this circumstai ce. the would have passed off quietly and orderly. plained that the Loyal Declaration, a, it wa had been placarded about the streets, as tion of the Merchants, Bankers, and Tradet• don; not distinguishiiiitit as the Declaration, "undersigned." Thi caused the Meeting at P ' sien House. Another inducement to that , was', that those who called the Mansion Howe ing, differed from some of the sentiments • in the Declaration. He also, for one, Petition to the House, rather than going up Throne, with a Declaration personal to • hiniself. The Declaration talked of sedition ligion prevailing in the Metropolis. He corn such feeling existed in the Metropolis. The , made at the Spa-fields and Smithfield Meetin t ocular demonstration of the loyalty of the the Metropolis: if anything could injure the of the People of London, it would be the , Ministers, in dragging the King and the Rot, mily through the mire, as they had done. To proceedings, it was to be imputed, that could not now pass through any t o wn, or change horses, without being subjected to it Isiah, not originating in any want of respect the Iloyal Family, but intended to convey censure on the conduct and measures of Ministers Mr. T. WILSON was sorry to say a word nnplea.sant subject. (The Honourable was not sufficiently heard, and that occa, •.. ed• of Speak oat!) He repelled the charge of r, tion among the respectable persons who ate Meeting. The Requisitionists did not cottfit selves to the objects of the Meeting, but casting reflections on the Gentlemen a ho !- the original Declaration. He regretted the ance that occurred at the Meeting; but : allow that it was alone produced by the tionists. Neither could he allow that the l'e, the Requisitionists represented the sense of the chants and Bankers, since. the Declaration had signed by upwards of 4,000 pet•sotls. Mr. PHILLIPS designated the Meeting as disorderly on the part of the Deciaratnoui.t> r were hissing and hooting; and at the saute Or ing that no Meeting could be held in the ('in this, where no discussion could be had. the conduct of the lovers' of order and the. Loyalists. It was impossible not to have seat there was a preconcerted plan to create cottflisius this Meeting ;.but notwithstanding, the were carried by a majority of three to one. • • The Petitioniwas then brought up, read, to be laid on the table, and to he printed. • •-•• Mr. J: SMITH had. th eligliesa• respect for dt darationists, and they had a right to their oaf nions ; b ut they had no right to interfere opinions of others. He believed - the - only wiy store this country to tranquillity would be y her Majesty's name in the Liturgy, and to • that had been. done. Sir ROBERT HERON Ise had given of a motion to that effect ; but ache would.wis have all the weight of his Honourable Friend's to . and influence, he would withdraw his • Mr. J. SMITH give notice, that he the insertion of the Queen's name in the the 13th instant. LIRE!. ON THE HOI7SE. Sir J. NEWPORT moved a Resolution, thax Address of the Presbytery of Langholm to his DIP jesty, was a gross breach of privilege ; but Ault s an official admission of its impropriety had beta anA the House did not think itself called upon totals farther notice of the same. Mr. HUME wished to know if this Note couldist be inserted in the Gazette also? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER II " I : that would be adding one irregularity to arbotlsm The Resolutions were then agreed to nem. COX• BANK OF IRELAND. GRENFELL complained of the Bank 01 100 . land refusing as deposits the lawful coin of the refill The CHANCELLOR of the EX.CHEQUERceeII say nothing on the sub;ect in the absence of theitigl i Honourable Gentleman (Nlr.C.Grant); hut he nest heard of any Bank refusin3 paymkts in the carrilli coin when offered. Sir J. NEWPORT said, his Honourable F' did not complain that the Bank of Ireland wouldeet, receive payment in specie, but that they " 41 : receive the current coin of the realm in deposit. deprecated that species of Govei lament within aU". vernmen.t, which prevented the Right Hon.Gentleu vi from being acquainted with the Bank of Ireiand. The CHANCELLOR o f t h e EXCHEQUER 62 A it was no part of his duty to enquire into the isi vall transactions of the Wok of Ireland. with& Sir IL PARNELL said, it was a clist" d Bank of Irela . nd to refuse discounting the bi"•,, merchants, who paid their bills in sovereigns. 1: contended, that as . public and chartered iwAyr" which public monies were deposited, the Bas k or , P land ought to coma under the cognicowe Right 11011. Gentleman. Ile thought that the elle td bee, etrool, io fa t item i k .. po ; ope n to • b e R who ap6 4l „ ere „ at tbl eStiOned, , 10 4 sv:e r i ng i s , the h • °l t titl to b e o f , was r ea biZ: rthy con e , . or h e . 4 in It of th e b ei :, d May or ,„, on on t h e p M by a majo il e ul that th e Lei ' ever ievi 4 o the riii t ' [. 13aronetpe, I. Barone t lat e , if i t ? anu ithe. tole of hi, t% t at any P g br ie he Ho we* :e &garbage; • t!, O ![l* heingh e , it e, the theth i • Y [erly. ewe , it wa c a w . as the Deel ag , of L e , ink at the llay that yew ems contaiad e, prefer* a I to the • :titian and ins, e contended. The antes t the conJnq( I the RmalFs. one. T o ales 1, or papa I I to intult—ig. , r e.pect t.. at :onvey a en 5 of Minket a word mil sle (intim cca, • .• edam, Ke of hb atteudeddit • t col,fing the. bu. A ho had tigal :ed In? .egu.i. at he maid wt y the Decles the l'etitiesi he of the klai .'g anon hau bat eeting as mat atio[Mis, same l i mal . the (its afar a tad. This es d i d the cumin d i have beet to codusive tt E he Resolute* Si One. read, ordael ted. sect for die DP a their ogee* gj ertere with * mly wiy te* of Id be 50 ia* 01 and to untie la td given nol* di vould.wigh SI Cc Friend's talon! th motion. sp le would tttttt the Liturgy M w so • ejg