Star. — London, England, 1822-03-13 00:00:00

I' l i t •\ - • ..~ Ala. Iv sidered as a bona fide redemption of the Debt? Was! it such as could jusaff tl 4 preient measure? It had J been notified to everybody that the Sinking Flind bad been ie a sunk of operation ; and it was well knovin that the Public Debt had been increasing in a much more rapid proportion. How then could it be said that twenty-five millions had been redeemed?— " Sunpose," said the Noble Earl, " that I had an in cumbrance on my estate to the amount of .10,0001. and that I wished to raise kool. more by v a mon . - gage upon it: suppose the person advancing me the money were to stipulate that I should not redeem the mortgage until I extinguished 50001. of my original debt : after that, I can get money at a less rate of in terest ; I therefore borrow 10,0001. and pay off 50001. of my first mortgage: I then go to the mortgagee who lent me the 50001. tell him that the stipulation was fulfilled, and insist on my right to redeem that mortgage. I ask whether I could be justified in doing so? and whether, if the case were to come into the Court where the Noble Earl presides, he would not take some time before he decided in my favour ? He would certainly take time to consider the ques tion ; and I trust the Noble Earl opposite will take time to consider well the case now before the House, and that he will consider it in all its bearings."— He therefore thought there was great doubt as to whether there had been such a bona fule extinction of the debt that the holders of 5 per cents. understood it to be such. He was surprised to hear a statement from the Noble Earl opposite, that that House should be guided by public opinion ; whereas they should be guided by nothing but justice. As to the redemp tion of the Land Tax, he doubted whether it was not a constructive payment, for by that operation no re duction had taker, place in the public burdens. It was the same as if men had purchased stock, and with that paid the Land Tax. It could, therefore, be nothing more than a constructive payment. It was said that the Act of Geo. 111. did not bear on the question ; but he contended that it did. The con dition in that Act was, that there should be a bona fide payment, and another Act explained the manner in which that condition was to be fulfilled, by giving public notice of the payments that were to be made. Now, if there had not been an obvious reduction of the National Debt, there was a case of grave and dif ficult consideration how far the Government could be justified in taking a measure like the present. It appeared to him that it was impossible not to hesitate an 1 doubt, if the Na:ional Debt had been paid off in the way stated ; and all he called on the House to do was, to doubt. Ile desired nothing more than plain and fair dealing ; and that if legitimate benefit was to be obtained for the Public, their proceedings should be free from all objections. As to Parlia mentary precedents, the proper one was' the Act of Mr. Pelham ; but there was no precedent for this; and he strongly objected to the provision relative to dissents, and not requiring assents. All the holders of the 5 per cents. bad an equal interest in that Stock, and a fair option was not held out to them. The Parliament had no right to give any preference to one set of men before another, on the ground of dissent ing or not dissenting—such a preference was a gross injustice ; because the first dissentients would labour under a disadvantage, compared to the advantages which later dissentients might possess. This was not , •Ily an injustice, but it merite d eve:: a worse name. In all ibis there might be great dexterity on the part of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ; but it was a dexterity unworthy of a great nation. It was more like the dexterity of a gambler than of a Minister. Oa these grounds he hoped the House would take time to consider this measure. He did not know what ossible disadvantage would accrue from delay. On the contrary, if the country was in a prosperous state, it would be a benefit—Wear, hear, heary*— The Noble Lord had lately made a long develope ment of the prosperous condition of the country ; and even ventured to prophecy that it would every year be increasing in prosperity. Similar prophecies had once been held out by Mr. Pitt; and everybody knew how they were fulfilled. But it was not in the power of the Noble Earl, or any other man, to say what turn our affairs might soon take. If, at the time when Mr. Pitt was holding forth his magnificent pro. phecies, a man of the most gloomy imagination had told him that at this very time the country would be in the most wretched state of distress, be would have been scouted as a madman. Yet the prophecy would have been fulfilled. The Noble Earl had talked of the peaceful policy of the country; and indeed no man wonid be mote ready to give a sincere support to that policy than himself. But had not a similar policy been once held by Mr. Pitt? and was not the country soon after involved in a long and destructive war ?—(!dear, hear).—As to the hope held out of an amicable adjustment of the differences between Rus sia and Turkey, he had great doubts on the subject. He must, however, express an anxious hope that this country would take no pal t in any war that might break out. %Viten he looked at the situation of Europe —when he considered the calamities that had fallen upon Italy, in consequence of the policy we had adopted—when lie turned his eyes towards Germany, and found all the people there discontented with the Governments which we supported—when he con templated the state of France, and beheld that coun try struggling against the Government we forced upon het—in short, drawing his conclusions from the events that were passing in every country on the Continent, he could not help thinking that the flames of war were likely to be once more lighted in Europe; and lie was not so sanguine as to hope that we might not be again involved in them—(Hear).—Their Lord ships would recollect that his Majesty himself, in his Speech from the Throne, spoke in language not very confident as to the peace of Europe remaining undis turbed.—The Noble Earl here read a passage from the Royal Speech, which stated that it was impossible for his Majesty not to feel interested in the differences that had unfortunately occurred between the Court of St. Petersburgh and the Ottoman Porte; yet at the same time expressed a hope that, whatever might be the result, England would not be drawn into hos tilities.—This Speech, continued his Lordship, was 'livered on the stb of February, and now, on the 12th of March, we were within a fortnight, or three %reeks at furthest, of that period when, if war should decided upon between Russia and the Porte, the Impaign must necessarily commence. Yet even on is very day, the 12th of March, all that the Noble rl opposite could say, with respect to the stability out peactiul tylations, was, that be would again "7. 11 • ~~' • • . write for the King their Satne he had put into his mouth on the datof the Session. But as it. was known that thisdifferPbtee between Russia and the Porte riustiin their reb , ilt, materi a lly affect the policy of the present measure, was it not un just, he • would ask, to proceed any that result was ascertained ? Even thoughfurther until we might escape being committed in hostilities on either side, was it possible that, in the event of a war be- I -tween them, the monied interest in this country should not be affected? Government was bound to continue paying interest on the Stock in question at the rate of 5 per cent. up to the .sth of July next ; why, then, was it necessary to urge this Bill with so much pre cipitancy ? By doing so they forced men into con tracts which they considered highly disadvantageous. Moreover, he objected to the mode of registering dis sentients, as being very unfair. He called upon their Lordships to pause before they adopted a measure which, as it came before them, was very objection able. He only wished the House .to stand clear, and not lend itself. to any dexterous proceeding by which advantage might be taken for an unworthy purpose—(Hear, hear). The Earl of HARROW BY contended that the Stock in question had always been c onsidered re deemable by law, and if it had not been so considered it would not be at par, or at least only a little more, while the three per cent. and other Stocks rose consi derably above par. It was quite impossible that by the operation of a Sinking Fund of only one million so large an amount of Debt as twenty-five millions could be redeemed, without any other debt being contracted in the meantime. But the Noble Earl (Grey) had said, that by the operation of the law for the Redemption of the Land Tax the public burdens were not diminished. How could they be diminished if money was not raised? But if the public burdens were not diminished, the public debt was—(Bear, hear!)—The Noble Earl proceeded to strew that the difference between the principle of dissent and assent was not worth arguing about. As to the likelihood of a war between Russia and Turkey, different opi• Mons were entertained upon it by different men. He entirely agreed with his Noble Friend near him, that if a war between those Powers was likely to produce an unfavourable effect on the Fonds, the present measure ought not to be adopted: but after witness ing the state of uncertainty in which the negotiations between Russia and Turkey stood, were their Loi d ships to hold in suspense a measure of •great public importance, till the Cabinet of St. Petersburg!) and the Divan of Constantinople came to some hind de cision ? The Noble Earl then urged the advantages which the Public must derive from the plan, and said that those Noble Lords who were oppmed to it ought not to call for delay, but state their ebjections at once to the principle it involved. Lord ELLENBOROUGH was certainly anxious for further information on the merits of the question. If the 2-1111 of Geo. 111. had any reference to the 25th Geo. 11. it was clear that the Five per Cents. were not redeemalde by law. In his mind, however, such reference was not apparent. The first claim of the creditor would naturally be, that the Sock should not be done away till the existing Debt at- the time being was reduced in the amount of twenty-five mil lions. The only advantage that could result from delay was t7.e obtaining of further evidence ; and as their Lordships bad the pcwer to call in the Judges, he thought it might bee-expedient to do so. It did not appear to him quite clear that the Five per Cents. could, under existing circumstances, be redeemed, as the law at present stood. The Marquis of LANSDOWN was of opinion that the Government had an undoubted right to re deem the Stock in question. He would not now dwell on the circumstance of the Redemption of the Land Tax, in corroboration of that opinion ; nor should he advert to the expediency of consulting the Judges, though any opinion which they might offer in support of the measure would give him greater confidence in his own. The Noble Marquis then proceeded to combat the arguments cf Lord Har rowby, upon the question of dissent and assent, ob serving, that neither of two parties to a contract had a right to force any disadvantageous measure upon another. In the instance of Mr. Pelham, who had proposed a plan for redeeming the four per cents. a I different and better system had been acted upon. l 'There was then a penalty imposed on persons who should neglect to declare their assent within a li mited time. By Mr. Pelham's plan the contract was fulfilled to the letter; but it was quite otherwise in the present one. The plan now proposed was upon a principle of unfair constraint ; just as if a man who was called upon to transfer an estate should be told he must lose the advantage a the contract, unless he accepted of the terms offered. He thought it very objectionable that proper tine was not allowed to persons for expressing their assent or dissent ; yet no thing was more just than that a fair time should be allowed, for, without considering the present cii cum stances of Europe as being likely to affect the mea sure, he thought it would be advisable to wait for some months; and should it then be found that no inconvenience :nose from the measure, nor any com plaints made against it, the Noble Earl might tell persons who deterred agreeing to his plan till it was proved, that they should accept of less advantageous terms than if they had made their option sooner. This was done by Mr. Pelham, and the principle was a very fair one. So far as this particular point went, he entirely agreed with his Noble Friend (Earl Grey); but on the legality of the measure, he thought that the operation of the Act of Geo. 111. was fulfilled by the Redemption of the Land Tax. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. Adjourned at Half-past Seven o'clock. HOUSE OF COAIMONS. Sir A. RAMSAY presented a Petition from the Landholders of the County of Kincardine, complaining of Agricultural Dis tress, and praying that economy and retrenchment may be exercised in the departments of public expenditure.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. RICARDO moved for Returns, stating the Amount of Monthly Importations of Corn into the port of London, dis tinguishing Foreign from British, for the years 1819, 1820, and 1821.—Ordered. The Order of the Day for going into a Committee on the Lind Tax• Commissioners Names Bill was postponed to Thurs day next. Mr. ROBERT SHAW postponed his motion fur the repeal of the Irish Window Tax from the 7th to the 24th of April. Mr. LUSHINGTON brought in a Bill for the repeal of the Malt Tax, which was read a first time, and ordered for a second reading to-morrow. I►lr. BENNET presented a Petition from a number of poor; , , • .• • • ..• . plerof mast , la the Coping. N=lftek tan - 1 g e rritte'llistresegs of the times, Wilikb their lives a Unbent, and death acceptable, sod - praying that the House wield devise some meatuFtlivellefoMwed to lie oo the table. Mr. S. RICE moved for Returns °fibs Number ofEberilfe Returns of the Elections of Temporal leers in Ireland for the last ten years. Mr. COURTENAY obtained leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Laws relative to Hackney Coaches. EDINEUROH POLICE DLL. Mr. JOHN SMITH presented a Petition frotn the Cham ber of Commerce and Manufactures of Edinburgh, against the said Bill. He said that there was not a body of mon in that city more respectable for character and talents than the Petitioners. Mr. KENNEDY bore testimony to the great respectability of the Petitioners. He thought an unwarrantable attempt was made to suppress the public opinion of the inhabitants of Edin burgh, with regard to the present Bill. Mr. 'HONDAS said, that all the Learned Bodies of that City were advocates of the Bill, and that men high in rank and pro fession supported it. Mr. HUME said, however respectable the few individuals might be who supported the Bill, they were of little considera tion when compared with the fourteen Corporate Bodies, who comprised the nineteen-twentieth of the population of Edin burgh, all of whom had petitioned against the Bill. The Petition was ordered to be referred to the Committee on the MIL VAGRANT LAWS. Mr. CIIETWYND called the attention of the House to the subject of a notice he had given for that day, to move for a Bill to consolidate all the existing laws relating to the apprehension, punishment, and treatment of vagrants. Of the necessity of having this class of offenders under the correction of the law there could be no doubt, and from the inefficient state of the laws re lating to them, chiefly owing to their multiplicity and intricacy, too many instances had come under the knowledge of the Houe rot to shew the necessity of some new arrangements. He had intended to bring the subject under the consideration of the House last Session, and although he had been prevented, he did not make it cause of regret, having had so much more leisure for acquiring information and maturing his plan ; and from the assistance of the Mendicity Society he had derived the most im portant hints. The object of the Bill he desired to bring in would be, first, to consolidate all the lawi on the subject ; and next to define the precise offences which were to subject any per son to the operation of the Statute. He wished to separate the cases of the criminal from the idle and disorderly—the dissolute and sturdy from those that were comparatively innocent, having been driven to a state of vagrancy from necessity, rather than be taken themselves to it from islatizt. Of the utility of such arrange ment and classification, there could be no question, when it was remembered that the law made no distinction between prosti tutes, ballad-singers, prize-fighters, and the plate-holders for a charitable purpose at a Church door. It was highly desirable that there should be an uniformity of practice among 'Magis trates throughout the kingdom, and for that purpose it was that he wished to see the laws placed within a short compass. The third object of the 11111 would be to specify the punishment for vagrancy, and to adapt them to the present state of society.— Ile would not go through the old statutes to chew the different punishments enacted, such as branding and burning vagrants, which being row obsolete, it became necessary to change the nature of this punishment with the changes in society. In act ing thus, he should be guided by the opinion of that enlightened magistrate, Mr. Colquhoun. lie had that morning received a letter from a Magistrate, who informed hint that the simple ex penses of passing vagrants for one year, for the counties of Betts and Wilts, were upwards of .et!,000. It was plain, therefore, that the interference of legislation was required here. The nett point to which his Bill would be directed was, the common lodging-houses for vagrants, which swarmed in some parts of the metropolis, and were actually hot-beds for vice. These he should propose to be put under the surveillance of the Police. The lion. Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to facilitate summary proceedings by Justices of Peace and otherl. Mr. GIPPS seconded the motion, but hoped the Bill would not be hurried through the I hurt , . Sir I. COFFIN thought such a Bill would be highly useful. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. Mr. CIIETW ]'NI) then moved for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the form of conviction in all cases of delinquency under the Vagrant Act. The necessity of such a Bill would be felt when it was known that it Was a matter of difficulty even with the greatest lawyers, to draw up the right form of conviction in cases nearly similar. The object of his Bill would be to esta blish the same form to meet all convictions of the same class. :%Ir ll 1 T l l. 1.0 it thought the Ilan. Gentleman was en titled to the thanks of the House, for his praiseworthy intentions and exertions. lie feared, however, he would not be able to frame ouch a statute for the proposed end, as that some roguish attorney should not discover a loop-hole by which to evade it. Leave was then given. PCRLIC RECORDS. Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved, that the Resolution of the House of the 7th instant, relatiog to the Public Records, be sub tinkled to a Committee, in cider to carry the intention of the House into effect. After a few words from Mr. D. GILBERT and Sir J. Newroar, a Committee was nominated lot the said purpose. 4 I deli. . 12t1 sec ibe i cam this r . ‘l:;,t . ' .# . tit (.4 t CALL OF THE HOUSE. Sir JOHN NEWPORT adverted to the notice he had given of a motion for a Call of the House on the 94th April. Ile had done so with a view to make lion. Members acquainted with the approach of important Iri , ll business, who might happen to be in distant parts of the kingdom. He had fixed upon that time, because there were many other matters of deep interest and importance to the welfare of that country pending about that particular period ; and it was his intention to call the atten tion of his countrymen and the House seriously to the condition of Ireland on that day. Ile trus:ed that Honourable Members would regard any inconvenience they might be subjected to in consequence of this course, as a boon granted to his suffering country. And he begged to assure them that nothing could be more satisfactory to the people of that country, and nothing more calculated to conciliate them than the attention of their Rulers and Representatives to their interests and complaints. This was the object of his motion—he desired to establith in the hearts of the people of Ireland that confidence in the British Legislature which they would give to one of their own. For this purpose he begged to move that there be a Call of the House on Wednesday, the 24th of ApriL The CHANCELLOR of the EX CI I EQUER expressed his entire concurrence in the sentiments of the Hon. Baronet. The subject to be submitted to the attention of the House by the lion. Baronet was one of the deepest importance, which it was highly desirable they should come to the consideration of in the most deliberative and most authoritative manner. The question was then put, and the motion agreed to. POOR RATES. Mr. COURTRNAY moved that a Committee be appointed to con►ider of the General Returns which had been laid on the table of that House during the years 1819, 1820, and 1821, re lative to the sums assessed for rates in Great Britain ; and report their observations to the Mouse.---Committee appointed. lONIAN ISLANDS. Mr. HUMP, in compliance with the request of Lord John Russell, postponed his motion on the subject of the lonian Islands from the 19th to the 21st inst. COLLECTION OF THE REVENUE. Colonel DAVIES said, that in directing the atten tion of the House to this subject, pursuant to notice, it was not his intention to go into the details con nected with it, but merely to endeavour to convince them of the propriety of taking this branch of the expenditure of public money more particularly under the cognizance of Parliament. When they considered that it involved the question of a sum of four mil lions, in the expenditure of which, those who ma naged it were accountable only to themselves, he thought they would see that, in this season of distress, it was their bounden duty to take the same salutary care of it, as of the other smaller sums.. lie need not remind the House that it was always considered that it wasawing to the patronage attached to the disposal of this sum that the Minister possessed the power of re ' gulating the votes in that House. This gave it a pe culiar claim to their attention. All that he intended to trouble the House with was,' to come to certain Resolutions which he should submit to them. One of these was, to thew the increase which had taken • • • p'ice the Asap for collection 11nCeiiie Telt. 1510, as compared with 1820. It would be found; that in the collection of the Customs there was an i T ricrease of 11. I 1. M. per cent—the duty on hackney-coaches, SI. Ios. Bd. per cent.—in the Post Office, upwards of 21. per cent. and on the Hawkers and Pedlars duty, nearly the same increase. He took' all these state. ments from the account laid on the table of the House. He had not gone to 1792, or 1797, but had taken the comparison with a year when the deprecia tion of the currency was at its height, 1812. He next wished to pledge the House to an opinion, ch at annual accounts of this branch of expenditure should be laid before Parliament. He did not call for re trenchment, but that the four millions thus disposed of should be subjected to the same scrutiny as the other branches of expenditure. It would, probably; be objected to him, that such a motion as this did not deserve support, after the statement of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But he should contend, that that statement was a reason for sup; porting it, as they had so frequently before heard that all public departments were on their lowest foot. ing. They had, however, since that been reduced lower, and probably this expenditure was ccoally capable of being curtailed. The charges for the collection of the Customs in the year 1820, as com pared with the year 1788, shewed an increase in the ratio of 71. per cent. • They must not allow themselves to slumber, or nothing could be done in the way of lessening the burthens rif the community. The Hon. Member then stated the case of some indi viduals who were in the receipt of salaries for two situations connected with the Customs, the duties of which they could not perform. By a reference to the accounts, they would find a Mr. Frewin, who, al though a Commissioner of the Customs, was also possessed of another situation, from both of which I.e received large salaries. Another Gentleman, a Mr. Dean, had held for many years a situation which gave him £l5OO per annum. If be did anything to merit such an income, he should think he could give much of his time to the performance of his duty as Commissioner of the Customs. The Commissioners of Customs were, in his opinion, unnecessary. Their number might be reduced from nine to six, withcut throwing any impediment in the way of the public business. But the same principle was acte . upon there as everywhere else. Poor wretches receiving about half-a-crown a day, and tidewaiters, might be reduced ; but the higher officers were never touched, and it had not been recommended that the number of Commissioners should be diminished. He ;hen read a Minute from the Lords of the Treasury to t;e Commissioners of Customs, in which their Lordships declared that they would consider it highly improFer in the Board to appoint any one to a situation in the Customs, without first ascertaining that he was in all .respects well qualified. Nothing could be better than this regulation ; the precept was admirable. But Ilcw had their Lordships acted on it? They had taken seven out of nine Commissioners appointed ti'o:n other departments, and placed them in their present situations, though they knew nothing at all of the Customs. The last appointment was that of an EU , - nourable Officer, who formerly had a seat in t!i..t. House. But he, as an Army Officer, could not be supposed to have had much insight ilito the business of the Customs. He noticed the unnecessary es penscs incurred on account of the Commissioners, and r:,.- ceeded to shew that the Superannuation List had been so rapidly increased. that from 1810 the annual charge on it had risen from £lO,OOO to £86,000. It had been declared that superannuation should only be allowed in consideration ot 'length of service, age, and infirmity ; but he could not turn over the ac counts without finding that. persons had been super annuated, who had served but fifteen, ten, five years, and some even who had only served three years. All who had completed twenty years of service, were im mediately placed on the list; and it was remarkable, that all those Gentlemen, immediately that they had served twenty years, became so infirm that they must be immediately superannuated! In defiance is the regulations which had been framed, 2700 appoint ments had taken place since the year 1816. He com plained of the manner in which certain Patent Offices, recommended to be immediately abolished, in 17S1, by the Commissioners of Public Accounts, had been kept up till 1810, and thence inferred the necessity which existed for Parliament keeping its eye con stantly on what was passing in that department. In the Solicito r'slBlB department, the law charges were For £38,800 : For 1820 - 29,400 Being a reduction of - £9,400 Which reduction was stated to have been effected in consequence of the recommendation of the Commis sioners. This again proved the necessity of keeping a watchful eye on all that was passing. The Ho nourable Gentleman then noticed the expenses con nected with the erection of the Custom-house, and maintained that Mr. Laing, the Surveyor, had been paid twice as much as he had a right to receive, and that 7,8101. ought to have been deducted from the sum paid for his services. The expense of the Coast Blockade and the Preventive Service he considered to be uselessly incurred. Smuggling continued to a great extent, and he would shew how it could be se curely carried on with advantage, in spite of all the measures which had been adopted. Supposing a cargo of five hundred kegs of foreign spirits to be got together, which would cost about 2501. on the other side of the water, the smuggler had only to give in formation against himself that the cargo would reach a certain point at such a time. The reward for the seizure of foreign spirits was 1/. Ss. the gallon. In the five hundred kegs there might be two hundred gallons. Half the cargo was condemned to the King, the remainder, which in the case supposed, would amount to 1,2001. was to be shared between the offia cer and the informer—two-thirds going to the former, and one-third to the latter. This would give the in former against himself 4001. for what had cost hint but 2501. and thus he might gain in this way 1501. without running any risk. At present great ntimters were engaged in smuggling. Informations multiplied, and the demoralization growing on the habitual violations of the law were shocking to contemplate. A Magistrate at Brighton had told him that a man had laid an information against- another on oath.— The next day he denied that he had done so, and en deavoured to persuade the Magistrate, against the evidence of his senses, that he was not the man. lAr this conduct be was committed, and being sub:e• OM 7