Star. — London, England, 1823-06-12 00:00:00

ject of etligration,'but the lloneurable Member - wa,s prevented from procteding further by calls for the que-tion, and cries of ‘. Spoke, spoke!" Mr. JA HIES was not only . of 'opinion that the Com bination Act ought to he repealed, but that mecha nics ought to b at liberty to emigrate.to whams. country they should think propel': If Ifie TOF the protection of manufacturers were to be repealed, he saw no reason 'why the Conn Vaii 7 s*Shisidarbetalso be laid aside. He called upon the agricultural Gen tlemen then present to concur %%kir him in •rejectin ‘ e the Bill ; for it was evident that if the workriren could not earn sufficient for their maintenance by their la bour, they must be supported out of the produce of the land. He decidedly opposed the Bill. Mr. BYNG rose also to cemose the Bill, not belies , - ing that any practical good could result from it to the country. He was perfectly aware that many most respectable individuals, large capitalists in the City of London, were anxious that the Acts now .existing should be repealed; but he could not place their wishes in opposition to the feelings and the welfare of that large class of the popUlation who would be so materially affected by it. He took that opportunity to deny that the imrishes in the neighbourhood of Spi talfields had suffered severely from the number of persons engaged in the silk manufacture who sought relief ; but so far from feeling the operative weavers a- burthen, the other inhabitants of those parishes in which these people resided had, to a man, instructed him to oppose the Bill. He begged, while on his legs to oppose the Bill, to say, however, that he by rio means wished to see the numbers- of persons em plc)) eJ in the manufactories in the City increased. After a few words from Mr. Alderman C. SMITH, which the calls of ‘. Question, question!' prevented being heard, the house divided, when there were For the third reallig - • 53 Against it . 40 maiority —l3 The Bill was then read a third time and passed. RESUMPTION OF CASH PAYMENTS. Mr.WESTER.N rose, inconsequence of a notice which he had given a long time since, to submit that Motion to the consideration of the House. Having made two unsuccessful attempts during the last flee sion of Parliament to persuade the House to go into an inquiry on the subject of our Cash Payments, be felt that, perhaps, he might in:some degree incur the charge of too great pertinacity, did he not explain to time House his reasons for the line- of conduct which he had rsued. So convinced was be that the views which he took of the measure were positively jolt and col rect, that tie had been unable to prevail upon himself to relinquish : his intended Motion. He re; mained perfectly convinced that the operation of this law of 1819, which had so contracted the currency Of the country, and which was well known by the • title of'' Mr. Peel's Bill,"—so well aware was he of, the evils which that Act had inflicted upon the coun gey—of the calamities which it had brought upon all • classes of the people—so much had the public bur diens been increased by it—Such extensive confisca-1 tion of property had ensued from it, that he would have felt that ne did not discharge his duty to h.s constituents and to the country, did he not call upon Parliament to inquire into the subject. in proposing his motion he begged to be understood as not con. templating a return to that state of things which had existed during the continuation of the Bankers' Act —be did not cobtemplete a re-establishment of un limited paper currency—nothing could be farther from his intention ; neither did he contemplate, by the introduction of his motion, to pledge any Hon. Member who should support him to any ulterior pro position which he should feel it his duty to submit to the House.— CThe Hon. Gentleman here referred to the arguments of the Hon. Member for Poitarling ton (gr. Ricardo) in 1819; but the conclusion of his sentences were for the most part inaudible to us. We understood the Hon. Member to object to the views • taken of the subject by Mr. Ricardo, at the period already mentioned].—He (Mr. Western) did not con sider the question merely as an agricultural one. He protested against viewing it in that light; but at the same time he would contend, that it was a question which effected the agriculturist in common with the trading and manufacturing interests . of the country. • The effect of the Bill had not only been to reduce the income of the landlord, the profits of the tenant, and the wages of the labourer, but it had deprived them of such a proportion of their respective incomes as materially to interfere with their comforts. He un derstood that, owing to a late partial rise its the price . of corn, it was expected that the distresses of the • agriculturalists would be shortly at an end ; but nothing could he more futile than such expectation. In consequence of the increased value of the - currency, . the price of corn fell in proportion. • Rods the Ist of January in this year, to the 17th of May, the average vice of wheat hid been but 465. per quarter; the average price of barley during the same period 355. a price quite as low as the average of the fifty years which had preceded the late war. -1ie1793 the price of barley was 30s. in the present year it was only 355. notwithstanding that the quantity predated last season did not exceed two thirds of in average crop. 13f the Act of 1819, the total Mumma of the standing' income of the country had been greatly -reduced ; and he would maintain that the amount of taxation ought to be in proportion to the amount oithe money income of the country. Taxation had incyeased, while the money price cf produce had cletereaste - The an nual income capital of Great Britain might be taken at 40,000,0001. and that of Ireland at 10,000,0001. braking in the whole 50,000,0001. .But in order to :hew the total amount of the value of the produce of tile land, it would be necessary to multiply that sum by, four, which would produce 200'000o0001. Now ten per cent. takewfrom that income, by decreasing it in any way, would of course =Om to &reduction of .20,000,0001. which would have the same effect as if 20,000,000 1 . were added to our titration: But he' underrated the loss to the country by. the Act of 1819 at ten per cent.—he was sure it was.neit less than SO per cent.—for he saw no probability that the average price of wheat shall ever again exceed 355. per quar ter. He therein found the reduction of the income of the country in the decreased rental of the landlord—, • the profits of the farmer—the wages of the labourer, and the other expenses to which produce was sub ject. Taking that seduction at :.30 per cent. we should then find that the income of the country had been lessened by a sum of 60,000,0001. Tltat.reduc‘,j tion of property had a direct influence upon taxation, for it decreased the power of consuming .exciseable I ~. - . • article-. At the time when the Bill era: passed the probable conseqltences to theincOme aid to the tax ation of the country were not considered. If he could thew to the. House full' and 'reasonable grounds to prove that there had been a misapprehension enter tained at the period when the Bill: was passed, he abooght he shook( have made out a case fire inquiry. He thought the jealousy with which svery.Money Bill was very prepeily regarded by that House ought, to becionsistent, and applied to every attempt to bur 'then the people by increasing the taxation. The ef drect of the Bill of 1819 was to load the country in such a manner, and to such an oppressive extent, that the income tax of ten per cent. ought, in com parison with it, to be considered as a boon. In the Report of the Committee of 1819, the amount of the debt or the taxation of the country had not been eon .sidereci ; nor the effect- likely to be produced upon them by the Bill. The Committee did not inquire into. the real value of the currency; it seems to have had no other object in consideration than the price of gold; and that because the difference in the value between paper and gold was supposed to be five per cent. tonsequently the effect to be produced by the Bill upon the prices of commodities wouldhe also five per &nt. He 'thought his Honourable Friend, the Mem ber for Portarlington, was wrong in asserting that the difference in the price of produce would be only equal to that of the two species 'of currency, paper and. gold.. • •The Honourable Gentleman, in 1819, did not seem to have considered himselt bound to exa mine into the prices of certain commodities, as coo pared,,with those of other commodities. The Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Nit.. Peel) main tained, that the price of labour formed the best cri terion by which to estimate the value of the currency. The Honourable Gentleman next referred to the opi nion of the late Mr. Horner on the subject of the currency, and proceeded to read an account of the comparative prices' of. wheat at different periods.— From the year . l77l-to the year 1785, the price was 4.65. per quarter. From 1786 to 1787, the price was 525. He found that, from the year 1762 to 1792, the ounce of gold had been worth ES lis. 10J. and that it had commanded fifteen bushels of wheat. From 1792 to 1797, the price of gold had increased, and the ounce had only fetched ten bushels. From 1797 to 1802, another period of five years, the price of the ounce of gold had reached £4 17s. 10d. and it had only commanded seven bushels ; from 1802 to 1807, it- had fetched eight bushels; from 1807 to 1812, six bushels; and from 1812 to 1817, it had produced seven bushels. 'lt was clear, that the de precietioa in the value of the currency had kept pace with-the increase- of the-debt of the country. The object of the motion which he was about to propose, was the. establishment of a Committee, to consider the change in the value of the currency from 1793, the amount of debt and taxation, and the conse, quetices produced thereby on the monied income of the country, and .onmoney contracts between indi viduals. The list point was one of great impOrtince. When they conidered - the different charges which had -been made uproi• private estates, and the neces 'sity of irieeti.Cg those change's in a currency reduced one half, they would - find reason -to fear that the landed proprietors ot England would be reduced to paupers. Instead of a robust and contented tent& try, they would have only a race of smock-fildttekt farmers, and a peasantry fed upon potatoes. That was the state which the country was coming to. No ! thing was so much to be depreeated.as a potatoe-fed population. 'lt was not solely agriculture that had suffered from the change in the value of, the cur rency, for every class ot the community had felt its effects. If some particular classes had not yet felt the same' degree of pressure as the agriculturists, let them not suppose that they were exempt.. Their time would come at last. Let.them suppose that a season of scarcity would arrive, and their they would see to what an extent the other classes of society would be oppressed by that operation which had hitherto been confined almost exclusively to. landholders. It was unquestionable that the price of agricultural 'about had sunk with the price of grain. He was au ale that the wages of the manufacturing towns had not de creased in the same proportion ; but a period would soon arrive when their depression would be al, great as the wages of agricultural labourers. But he would not press that argument further. He could not help thinking, that it was impossible for any Gentleman to contend, that the Act of 1819 had not been passed under a misapprehension. He thought that no Gen tleman who had supported the Bill would get up and says that he had not been mistaken in his judgment as to its effect.. Would it be said that this country, after a war of so many years, could maintain the currency as it now stood? Would it be said that the people could sustain additional burdens? When they looked back to the years of the war, they would find that; at its most expensive period, this country had not felt a heavier degree of taxation than it en dured at the present moment. They would find, that in three of the most expensive years; the .annual charge had amounted to sixty-foul millions, and that in three subsequent years it had amounted to eighty four millious; and if they tool( into consideration the price of gold-at that period, they would find that the rate of •tasation, as compared with the present, had ire the former instance been only fifty-six millions, and l in the latter DOtARDC than sixty millions. But would any Gentleman say, that this country could again sus tain 'a war at the annual charge of seventy-four mil liana, at the present price of the currency? That was a proposition which he thought no one could venture to make.' But that seventy-four millions, when con sidered, with reference to the price of gold at that pe riod, had, in fact, only been a charge of fiftyreight millions. He(Mes WesternLanticiputed that an ar gument would be attempted to be raised on the price of corn at .the present time. But the average pried of corn, up to the 17th 'of May of the . premat year', had never exceeded 465. It might increase, but it would never exceed the price previous to the year 11793.. They would find that the prices of the pre sent year had not been equal to those of other years i• the war: fer instance, of 1817 or 1818; sad. therefore.. no inference could be drawn from the present price, except that . which he sought to drew, siacis vii. that the prices would uniformly continue with* the, range which existed previous to the war.- 1 The restoration of the currency it. 1819 had been in fact the estalliishnsent of a new currency. They ought not td measure the twenty-two years during which iliat currency had been suspended by the num. ] ber of years which had elapsed, but by the transac- . of a war, from the necessity of raising 74 '1 4 'hie par of . ' es eamodity ? The Han. Member had co span thedifEculties which would . athe to th e lnine oonei n , tt4 tions which had occurred within them. the Army : arid Navy - had been dciubled-L-1,11 . Civil in a currency of the present standard. I) .7 ,T Establishments and GovernMent salarieshad belly _ii at i - ; la . fase 'creased in consequence of the currency.' 'Upon oFb , boas • tit hoe of the i be required? 1174 millions had been formerly principle, then, could they revert to thehigbeeloalues I did the Hon. Member prase that 71. millio ns co o n . , at. the same time considering the PST ohms the Member could not I Army and Navy, and the allowances of the Civil soeT in ebe . aepragbeeravis soeoey , - s . nre i rliceit rel. List? He felt himself authorised to call upon able in fe rt . tat 74 milli ons 4 , 4144 House to inquire whether the facts which he bad al-. be necess ary ; fur that season an the piese l a_ e i ev444 ledged were substantial, and to etainine into the cell- ' state of it. The d'irehennomniiiNiolrs i b n erLtad )r zt n e t d, - that sequences of the change in 'the valuation of the cur rency on the monied interest of the country, and 1 a a h b il o m u sts t P sEl millions: did the Hon. Member money contracts. The Ilan. Member then moved , _ .t at millions could not be raisedwithout su pper mim e o, .ficulty than the 74 Millions had formerly ? S o oilick " • That a Committee be appointed to take into considerat ion from the year 179 : th t : for Clint argument. Ti. The 1.. a. Member had co o , the change. in the value of the currency the present time, and the consequences produced thereby o_ the ,resented upon the alteration of the currency as crocu s monied income of the country; to consider the atneent of.rise . public debt and taxes, and their relation to the monied iewsuw ; sary for the advantage of the State: tort would the House, or would any Member of it suppo se , e i ii: A t and to inquire into the effect of the change in the Taie of tb ., currency on money contracts entered into between individuals would be; advantageous to the nation to li.tve A d e , Mr. BAItING preciated cart ency ? Ile (Mr. Ricardo) had co nten d et, tecontred the u.otion. I s e i‘fr.ltlCA R DO said, that the principles upon which‘,er and would always coniend, that it wo u ld b e the lion. Member had profes s ed to proceed e greatest injury to it, as well in case of war in of pe such as no man could dissent from. He would make a few comments on what had boo propositions of the Hon. Member he dildlneuptaurptipc:llaer; s p ta u t b e l d ic. by the lion . Member in his pamphlets e e a a be only differed from him as to the degree of depre- The Hon. Member had supposed that tie clarion of the currency and the alterations made by House had injured the nation by having bo rrerei the law whO had of 1819. Then at l e were two The Hon. classes Gent of lemonp ns 500 millions' in that de, rssciated currency ; but t y, l bad confine d himself to the period since 1819.. But lion. Member was mistaken in that slim ; f or if t h e there was another class of Gentlemen who took a obected to thaw. House had borrowed its that Currency, it had also paid sortie of the antecedent debt in it. Instead, ther e f,, e; different view, and among them was the Hon. Mem of the sum of 500 millions, the Hon. Member, aught ber for Carrington, who in a publication which, to have stated the di/faience between the suit bee, though it did not bear his name, was supposed us rowed and the sum paid in the depreciated ein em . not confined to the period since 1819, but stretche d come from his pen, had said that his - arguments were H , He would a,k the on. Member in what sate ilis se very persons would he now in, in case the 131 i lAA to an antecedent period. In supporting the Act of had - been pa-sed to compel the acceptance of a lia , .k 1819 he had considered the Bank of England as note hid not been passe ? 'Would they not beexaely most prejudicial to the interests of the country, and similarly tier timstanced ? It was e.% sae at that they he had been glad when he had seen the House open would. Toe arguments of the Hon. Me nhet had is its eyes. He had considered it of no particular ins. 1816 been exactly of the same descri n , as a ist portance whether they 'returned to the former value which he (Mr. Ricardo) now advanced; let the Her. or not, so that the standard had been fixed. He had Member now blamed him fur m iirttaini .g thesi, lie then said that the depreciation of the currency was to aPpealed to the speech of the Hon. Member in lste be measured by the difference between the value of to prove that fact. The Hon. Membei ha.' crimp l ed paper and of gold. He would say the same now.— the prices ut Amsterdam in 1814 and 1821 0.,;01ah, But he never had said that the standard itself was not and had contenced that they had varied only .:51po subject to variation ; and he appealed confidently to cent. whereas , according to the Honotirab.e 3hos. every writing which had ever proceeded from his pen ber, those of this country had varied forty lotiriisl on the subject, to shew that he had always acknow a half per cent;making a difference of 19 per eta. ledged gold to be a commodity subject to variation. The Hon. Member had, in various pamphl4ts ono He would for a moment recal to the recollectiOn of merited upon his opinions, and contended that he had the House what he had said in 18194 He had been been influenced by interested motives in his conduct. accused of saying that the prices would not vary in He would state that his property was situated as %ell consequence-9f that measure in a greater degree than in land as otherwise, and that it would puzzle tae •five.per • cent. -Now lie would explain the circum- Honourable MeMber, as it would hinnelr, to decii,le . stances underwhich lie had given that opinion: he whether he was more a gainer than a loser by the al. had contended that if nothing took place to alter the teration. As to the present state of agriculture, he value of geld it would Only be necessary to raise the rejoiced to find that the difficulties under which it Price of paper to - the price of gold, and that to do had laboured , were now nearly 'over-..they would that it would be only necessary to increase it five per soon cease altogether, and agriculture, as well.t cent.—five per cent. would, of course, be the greatest the other b. arches of trade, wralld continue to its. variation. He had at that time contemplated the Bill prove. A good system of Corn Laws was :lioness*. coMmonly called Mr. Peel's Bill as having that opera- ing, its order to place the agriculturists on a fair (ca tion. That Bill had not required the Bank to pro- ing, and to prevent the chance of any of the esils so cure a greater quantity of gold ; there had been. no much 'complained of recurring in future. He Lori occasion to put a greater quantity of gold into circa ' that his arguments would not again be misters lation, for if the Bill had been followed strictly -the 'Sleeted, as they had been by the Honourable Mend" Whole currency might have been in papei - onle, and and by the Honourable %lember tin. Carringtos. a therefore •he find contended that there had. beets their late pamphlets — (Year).—All he would sills nettling in that Bill Which would produce a tiltinge lative to the motioa of the llotasinable Gentle : lM in the value of gold. A.chaage, however, had takeq was, that perhaps the House might, as a punisbmin place in •the price of gold, and why ?. Because the to the Honourable Member, grant the Comminer, Bank, from the 'very moment of the passing of the 'in order to 'punish Isim,•by•placing him as Chairman Bill, had set its face against its execution. It had and leaving him to maintain all the opinions which Carried ail tier gold it could collect to the Mint, and he had advanced that evening—(Laughter). He would had created a demand for gold ; and, in consequence, confess that he did not know how he would set gestalt. an alteration in the price had been effected, which no The Marquis of TIC HFIELD said, that the House man at that time could have expected. If the Hon. had, to decide by their vote of that night, who Gentle Min had argued rairly, he would have said, ther the landed proprietors were to remain on their that the value of the currency had increased.five per estates, or to remove to foretgn lands, and give place cent. making .it accord with the value of gold. lie to a new set of asiopi ietot s. He thought a prim/aft& ought here to have said, that, in consequence of Mt. case for inquiry had been Made out, and the facts Peel's Bill, a demand for gold had been created ; that that had been stated by the Member for Essex fully therefore the value of that commodity had . neces- jostified a call for inquiry. To the Resolution o(the sanity risen, and that he estimated the alteration in. House in 1811, that a pound note and a shilling went the value at.so Much per cent. But the Hon. Mem equal to a guinea when the guinea in the mai ket wo ber had chine no inch thing ; he had not said a word equal to 275. a great Part of the subsequent distreo about the quantity 'of gold, but had told them that was to be ascribed. He felt some consolation Mathis his proof .ut the alteration in the price of gold was Right Hon. Relation (Mr. Calming) had strenuously the alteration in the price of wheat. That would be opposed that opinion, an 4 moved an Arnendmenes 4 a just as legitimate an argument in any country, or at which, however, he and common sense had taped. 'any other period, as this. Th* Hon. Member would enced a defeat. If at acre time there were forty mil not deny, that if a counts y imported its corn, and if lions of money in circulation, and at Another On adi. any obstacle.occurred in the way of that importation, lions, the transactions of the country, not being is. and rendered it necessary for the country to change creased, 21. at the one time, would go twice ax tar Is its character in that respect, the change could only be 11. at the other. But, should the transactions if the elicited through the medium of high prices. That country be doubled, the2l. at the one time, would sot was the case of this country, and' the low price of go fartheithan 11. at the other. The NobleLordthsh corn now was to be attribeted to'the re-action which proceeded to state to the House the average pate had been felt. For his own part, he could see no and war prices in every different period of War old great. iajustice to the agriculturist if the prices of corn peace between 1688 and 1789, and contended-4 continued-in tature the same as they had been pre- from this statement, it appeared that peace eriear vious to the war. He granted that the debt and taxes during that long period,- were ipvariably five per were a burden upon the agriculturists, but were they cent. above those existing during a period -of wok e greater burden upon them than upon the other The present, he contended--a -time of peace ro nag e , classes ? No.' Let them consider the situation of the when war was not anticipated—was the best poss es stockholder. ' The Hon. Gentleman had argued, that the stockholders had derived.benefit from the athei st- sta te riod which could be selected for. inuiring walk of our standard ; and if; it was found to be Po tion of the currency. In point of fact they had not. just, to alter it. - - The Hon. Gentleman forgot that 500,600,000. L of the, , lf Mr..BARING said, having-three yeariagehiwo debt- had been contracted before the depreciation of brought forward a pioposition siciailas-to this!, it the currency, and the loss whiehthe stockholder hid might now be necessary for hies to state his feigkOfh suffered during that. pried h'ad been as Much as for opposing the motion of his Hon. Friefid ;10hile would have bought a.perpettsal annuity equal to the he must at once say, this was i• eitiestidithuien additional charges which the agriculturist now sus- with . time, and the time for chinigilleandiagoliet. Mined. The Hon;Member had argued that. if he, It had been his misfot tune to differ with both .1 1 Ognes proved that the monied.lneenne of the agriculturists on on this important question; he.-kad7fully agreed .. hail was now 20,000 fi 0001.1iss th in is - had been in 1511 , 1 the evils of the. syeteM 44114.4 _out .by the Bu ll) " lie proved that th e amount of their taxation was Committee; bit be liad.disagteed eta* in the '''' 20,000,000 E more. That was not the case. Buthad I l i iedy the landed interest derived no benefit in the years' which that Committee tecOminendfid; Indio thought he had been Well Untitled in his opposing° since 1795?.. Now, if it were allowed ' that from 1800 + to that rezommendifioti.-- He could notnow.Posag to 1816 the landed interest had derived benefit from fa -the appointment al a .Commiitee to carry ea° the depreciation of the value of Money', he tfineghtiiimairy.. namentl that that benefit 'should be allowed against thial-1 racoed, as.stscleinqniry toelskoallllg I versity of other years, and heteliel?ed 00 the araPillit.,' try, The to unsettle the currency and-do mischief iethe coo?. Cif benefit would be found-equal to the disadvin-injuries Which. had already arisen ten* age oftheir subsequent sufrerings. The flon t .Metn-l iteakulat ; le. ~ 'Wash from this tampering with the currency.i. ber araine o f a. n 6 That there had been a de precilli gs hid said, that the alteration in the p 30 e r recite - 4 .le did' i man could doubt who had a guinea to spenal i e money might be considered- as • liousekeeper who went to matlsct, but could tell !t not thinkthat the alteration irad'ibeenahything. like Li went. mod, Lg.:beret:y than it did formerly , that. He said that if the-Bank hid followed therßilli . of 1818 the alteration would oid.fhavatse fi e Lord FOLKSTUNE said, he knew there werd* n ''- - v, - - -k er ..., - vend Menibe6 who desired to deliver theirsenfwel cent.. but as the - Bank had got &he va s writ inn _,. -...- o - a, ll .. ,";V•oetliiituiportant 'quistion e and thereforelli AO 1 111 16 W is c citt ou g nt it ry ta : be ad . t;:d ":t 'ui!o ffe n c til li t terr:artiall.rt. .iir t ."` i i: e l !- at tl4late.hour move to adjourn the debate. ilf; Sonic conversation took place between Lord Ftmairtmh p :.r,.[w..~.w~+ Chi that Bat tip* tbi A BP le 4 be t I