Star. — London, England, 1822-02-16 00:00:00

country. Ile had feared the contrail; and was therefore against the enquiry. because lie thought it had been called for on no solid. view of the paestion, brit on a.devistiion iron' all those principles %eke)) it was most essential to the general interest to maintain, and likely therefore hut to terminate in delusion. He was happy to say that the result had not •'corres ponded with the apprehensions which he had enter. tained. If the Committee had done no other good, their labours had had the effect of leading the Public, to view this question in its proper light. A . muoh., more correct idea was taken of it now than formerly. Both the great bodies which had supposed they had separate interests,. hut which he had ever con sidered to have one common interest, he meant the manufacturing and the agricultural classes, now, saw that they had been in error—(Hear, hear), -It was at length understood that it was as little the interest of the agricultural classes to impose high :.prices on the manufacturers, as it was the interest of the manufacturing body to break down the agricul •tural classes, their best customers in the market, by, 'reducing their prices so low that they could not pr.', chase the produce of manufacturing industry. He 'thought it an auspicious circumstance for the coun try, that the errors which had prevailed on this sub ject were no more. Protecting duties, or the want of them, could have nothing to do with the present dis tress, as the farmers were protected from the impor tation of foreign corn, up to eighty shillings, while the market price was but fifty. After the Report which had been laid on Ole table, after the sugges tions which had been thrown out, he felt that Go vernment would blink the question, and fail in their duty if they were not to propose the revival of the Agricultural Committee for the reconsideration of their Report; but it was not to be supposed that he was bringing in a Corn Bill, or that he had any views apyroaching the effect of that measure.— He wished to state, that though he was convinced of the necessity of immediate relief, yet he felt that such relief could not be extended just now, and that all that could be expected was to relie:e the country horn the alarm which the markets might experience from the mischief of the existing laws—(Hear). — Without challenging a discussion upon all the prin ciples of the Corn Laws, every one of which admitted of so much contention, he would only say now, that a modification in the existing laws would be in some degree beneficial, and was indeed necessary. Some modification of them was necessary to protect the country against the injurious consequences to its agriculture, which by mere accident might he pro duced by the operation of these laws—:(Hear).—The evils which might possibly arise from them were of so extensive a nature, that it behoved Parliament to take the matter seriously into their consideration. The great evil of these laws was, that in a small space of time a measure was determined upon, of so decided a nature as to leave no medium between an unlimited supply and an absolute monopoly.— That decisive step was taken too upon averages which were likely to be affected by accidental circumstances. There were four Quarter Days. He would suppose the 15th of August one of these, as the day on which the ports were to be opened. The smallest rise in the price—nay, even a single penny over 80s, would open the ports to the whole world for three months, except the ports between the Oder and the Bidassoa. But it was unjust to ourselves to suppose that we were alone distressed. The difficulties under which the agricultural interest laboured were certainly great, but they were not so great as those felt in America, the sea-ports of the Continent, and in Ger many. He (Lord Londonderry) was told this day that, in Silesia, the farmers did not think the corn worth taking off the field, and the finest wheat in Europe was left there to rot—(Hear). In Bohemia corn did not bring one-eighth of the price of last year. The Corn Laws were not calculated to better the condition of the agriculturists in this country. If the corn was now at fifty shillings, what would it be if the ports were open ?—(Hear, hear, hear).—,-' At the present time all Europe was in a disordered state with regard to the price of corn. On this ques tion it would be useless to go into anything like a theoretical detail; but he must at once say that he protested against all those delusions which led men to think that relief could be afforded by laying addi tional duties en foreign corn ; for if a law to that effect were passed, it could not be acted upon—(Hear, hear).—Yet he thought some concessicns ought to be made with regard to certain rates of duties ; and he thought the agricultural interest might derive some protection from double averages—(Near, hear)—in stead of single ones, and that there should be some mode by which foreign supply might be placed under a greater degree of restraint. All he meant to pro pose was, a modification of the existing regulations. With respect to the warehousing of foreign corn, that was a subject which should undergo a very particular examination, so that frauds might be evaded. The warehousing system, at present, was not strict enough ; and he should propose that a notice should be pub• lished in every Gazette of the quantity of foreign corn brought into, and sent out of the country—(Hear).— There was another question to which he wished to call the attention of the House. He saw considerable difficulty attending the practice of advancing money for foreign corn, which was afterwards suffered to lie in warehouses ; of this corn there ought never to be a glut. He would, however, recommend a plan for warehousing. British cord, as highly advantageous to our own farmer, by always causing a steady 'market; bet, at the same time, no greater encou r%emeot.should be held out to this plan than would be necessary to pay the interest • Of she money ad , . . . . . vanced, and the expense attending it. It would not be desirable to keep the corn long in the warehouses. but that the proinietOr Might take it awa7 as, soon as he chose. This was certainly an artificial measure, but it would render the supply of corn more com plete and secure. He merely threw out those sttg r,estions, leaving, it to ;lie f Hogs; 'to determine what (ight to be ddne according to ail best of its judg ment. He did not think he had discharged his duty if he withheld any of those considerations from the House. He felt himself called upon, by a sacred duty to support those great principles which were ne l cessary to be acted upon after we had experienced the bitter fruits of sacrificin4 our internal interests. He went upon the principles of that great man Mi.'ritt; who had established a Sinking Fund as a means of pre serving the property of the country. He felt confident that he was addressing those persons who still vene rated the mole of that great man, who bad sup.: I ported and saved the country in the %, times--(Hear)--.and that after the. chine as liant.eareer, the, would not blast &e hopes . country, by Destrew deem with sactifegiont hands- , immortal fabric which he had raise 4 .and by:ethici the country was sustaioed amidst turpoepled cis tresses—(Hear, hear.)—fie ! was sure that the, Corn mom of England, who had withstood and overcome so-many disasters, tette had'thased the despot, and fastehed him on the rook.....(Hear • itestr)o—would not sacrifice the great principles on 4ith they had hi therto acted, by an andicationiof, that system which had carried the nation throufb ttne.xa ti pled struggles and disasters. He felt that, if the great Man to whom he alluded could descend again •to this world, and witness the proceedings of that House, in order to see whether they, would abandon those councils which had elevated the country to so high a pitch, the feelings of his mind would be, that they ought not in a moment to abandon the wise and beneficent plans which he had left for their adoption ; and he hoped the same spirit that bad marked the whole of his useful life would guide them on the present oc casion, as the best means of insuring public prospe rity and happirness ; and that they would rest on that foundation of greatness which he had left as a last ing monument to posterity—(Loud cries of Hear, hear).—The Noble Marquis concluded with the fol lowing motion Resolved, That there be laid before the House an account, entitled, An Account of the Receipts of the Income of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in the year ending sth January, 1821, and of the expenses within said period, ex clusive of sums applied to reduction of the funded or unfunded debt.' Also an Account of the Balance of Public Money re maining in the Exchequer on the sth January, 1820. " The amount of Money raised by additions to the Funded or Unfunded Debt, in the year ending the sth January, 11121. " The Money applied towards the reduction of the Funded or Unfunded Debt, within the same period; and the Money remaining in the Exchequer on the sth January, 1821. • " A similar Account for the year 1822. " An Account of the Estimate of the Public Income and Expenditure of the year ending .sth JAnuary, 1822, exclusive of the Sums issued for the reduction of the Deist." Mr. BROUGHANI assured the House that he had listened to the able statement of the Noble Lord with a degree of attention and anxiety which he conceived to be due to the importance of the question then be fore them ; and so far his attention was repar.i. He had now,to congratulate the House on the change which had that night taken place in the sentiments of the Noble Lord, and the amendment that appeared to have taken place in his tone and manner, as con trasted with his manner on a firmer night, when he had treated those subjects with a levity that asto nished many Members of that House. Such was the change and improvement effected in the Noble Lord's mind in the short space of four days, that he seemed to abandon all the tenets and invidious comparisons which he had thrown out on Monday night, and at length condescended to apply his mind with gravity to the great subject then under consideration. One, indeed, would now almost suppose that the Noble Lord had a suspicion that his plan appeared rather in a dim light—that it was surrounded with difficulty, and had a veil thrown over it which could not be easily seen through. For his own part, he (Mr. Brougham) could not, as yet, perceive its distinct fea tures. But so far as he was able to see it, the ap peared to be somewhat of this nature:—First, that the great power on which the country must depend was the power of Nature; and, in the next place, that relief was only to be obtained by trifling reductions. One part of it was to afford the trivial relief of taking off a shilling of the duty on every bushel of malt.— The Noble Lord had representeJ him (Mr. Brougham) as stating that the greatest misery prevailed among some classes of the people. He (Mr. Brougham) had asserted that there was no increase of consumption ; but the Noble Lord now stated that, although there had not been an increased consumption of malt, there was an increase in the consumption of substitutes.— And what wete those substitutes? Did the Nigiole Lord mean to say that a substitute had been found in the increased use of brickbats?—( Loud laughter). Then soap was said to be a substitute : but that was no answer to the complaints of the agriculturist. w as last, however, the Noble Lord came to the great sub stitute of all, which was tea ! Now this was the very substitute which he had most to complain of; for it appeared that, instead of the good old custom once practised in England, of chinking the wholesome and nutritive beverage called beer, the people were get ting into the practice of using a beverage not near so wholesome—a beverage which was not a British product, and the extended use of which gave no relief to the British agricalturist,however beneficial it might be to the agriculturists of China! ( Loud laughing). —With the exception of the Chancellor of the Ex chequer, the East India Company were the only per sons in England who derived benefit from the in creased consumption of tea; for it did not cause the cultivation of one acre of British ground, and, there fore, it was nothing to the British agriculturist.— He now had a word or two to say on the miscon ception which the Noble Lord appeared to labour un tier respecting industry and profits. The Noble Lord had laid it down as a principle that the whole of the taxes 'paid by a farmer amounted to one-seventh part of his rent. He had indeed heard of calculators who dealt largely in figures, and who were more fanciful in fiction even than poets ; but this calculation of the Noble Lord was more extravagant than anything he bad ever heard before. Indeed nothing could be more abstruse than calculations on taxes ; but the Noble Lord, with his wonted agility, leaped over all the difficulties attending this subject, and by his new system of vulgar fractions, performed a feat that covered him (Mr. Brougham) with admiration.— Another position of the Noble Lord, still more unac countable, was that the reduction of taxes could af ford no relief to the suffering people—(Hear)—but he did not say a word of the effect which taxes must have in raising the price of labour, of diminishing -profits, and of increasing the prices to the consumer. Indeed he called upon the House tp, look to the Ppoitwers of resurrection—(LOod laughter)—he told them that everything was in a seviving state ; and ad. vinced principles of political economy, every word of which was a complete satire on the country—(Hear). The Noble Lord had produced a certain system ; but he (Mr. Brougham) had done no such thing : heonly called on the House last Monday night to correct the system that already existed, which could only be done by diminishing the burdens of the people, ancl not by the adoption of a ,Sinking Fund, which could give no relief whatever ; yet the Noble Lord main tained, that if the whole mass of taxes were annihi- 17 . 9 the whole imOunt t 0 tiro , q he did is the proxy of hisTrierkfthethaileellorof Erchequer. On chit point, however; be was again Lord. With ' issue with the Noble ' Bet he agreed Al him that faith should be kept with theiiutdic creditot.-pa l Until the nmessky attired, let' filth . ' be prestrVed ; j at the some time let swore possible redoelion be mit & e l and he hoped the necessity would never strive. •The Noble Lord referred to the high authority of a nos who lodg ruled over the country he'aever &petted the transcendent talents of - that man; but•the Mese must recollect that the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Noble Lord had pulled the first stones out of Mr. Pitt's great edifice in 1813, and left nothing of the Sinking Fund but the name—( Wear, hear). That great man (Mr. Pitt) would have spurned with indig. nation the little plans of his underlings who followed him. His name should never have been in the 'seeps of those men at the time they took away that Sinking Fund which they spoke so Much of now. In 1813 it was destroyed by the present Chancellor of the Ex chequer; and instead of a Sinking Fund of twenty one millions, it was at last reduced to an uncertainty whether there was any Sinking Fund at all. To say, then, that the Gentlemen on his side were the enemies of the Sinking Fund, was one of the greatest del,- sions, whether arithmetical or poetical, which ever was broached in that House. It did not appear from the No:ile Lord's plan, whether any of the Civil List, or . any of the Offices or Sinecures were to be touched-- What, then, became of his retrenchments? There was A little heard of superannuationsi amounting to about £150,000, and that was all that was to be gained by retrenchment, and gained to the comforts of people wh; were starving for want. This was all that was to be done towards diminishing the enormous patron age of the Crown. He had heard of ten per cent. being intended to be taken from all salaries, not as a saving, hut as an insurance. That might he a great deal too much to take from some; even five per cent. would be a great injustice inflicted on men who had embarked their whole lives and their health in the offices they held. In other cases it might be a great deal too little, particularly in the higher offices,, and utterly incompatible with the just demands of the people, and would be a complete mockery to them. Why could not the great offices of State be filled merely for the honour of them and the patronage, without any salaries? They might be said to prop and adorn the Crown ; and they would not adorn it the less by acting without any pay, and these places would be better if no salaries were attached to them; they would be more sought after if not more than half the salaries were attached to them, and the holders of the places would serve their country better. Not a farthing more ought to be wrung from the people than was absolutely necessary for the safety of the country. There were some offices which he thought ought not to be touched at all, or touched with great delicacy—he meant the judicial offices-_(Hear). — When a man was made a Judge, he was taken away Flom a lucrative profession. He knew one who, by being made a Judge, abandoned half his in come at the Bar. It appeared that the next, and per haps the most notable part of the Noble Lord's plan, was to borrow four millions, to be lent by the Bank. That sum was to be disposed of in a way that was not very clearly explained by the Noble Lord. If he un derstood the. Noble Lord correctly, the lending of the four millions would apply to a two-fold purpose. In the first place, a portion of the sum was to be applied to the purchase of Steck, for the purpose of keeping up the price of agricultural stock ; it was to be another pulley, by means of which to support the market; 2dly, what was not so applied, was to go in aid of the Poor-rates. How the application of money to such an object could afford any relief to the country, or even to the parties themselves, he was unable to com prehend—(Hear, hear).—The Noble Lord seemed unaccountably afraid of a torrent of gold setting is upon the country. To apply the Noble Lord's own figure, he appeared to have a perfect "hydrophobia" of gold—(Hear and laughier).—He seemed to appro. hend that the setting in of such a torrent would prat., duce ravages of which no man could imagine the ere tent; but so long as paper wasnot the exclusive medium, while it continued convertible, it was beyond the power's . ' of all the Noble Lord's financial plans, aided as be might be by Exchequers, to keep up gold beyond its just level. That level it would most assuredly find. As to the latter part of the plan,.it was still worse is its principle. The first part of the plan was nuga tory ; the latter portion of it was worse still—it was mixhieyous. It was neither more nor less than ti lend money to every parish that chose to apply, and thus, in fact, encourage extravagance—(Hear, hear). The sound of such a proposition had been to him most marvellous, to ohe too, who was not albeit mt. used to be compelled to listen to most marvellous propositions. The remedy for the - benefit of the Country Gentlemen—for that was the shape which the plan first took—was not of so miraculous a cha racter. Could there be an individual who did not see in a twinkling, that if the rates were relieved dila year, they must be doubled next year ?—(Hear, hear). There would be the principal to refund as well as the interest. The original plan was ridiculous and absurd ; it had been scouted, by those who first ven tured to think of it ; it had been abandoned by the original proposer: but even that scouted plan, of lending Exchequer Bills to the Country Gentlemen, was not so bad as the one now submitted by the Noble Lord to relieve the various parishes—( Hear, hear). To what could it lead but to a wasteful and careless expenditure? for the money would get into the hands of overseers, whose office lasted only during the year. The Noble Lord at length reached the cli max on which he perched his plan. He was not only to run through the isarishes, lending any that would borrow—a mode of relief that woad impose on such parishes double rater Rsr the succeeding year • but the Noble . Lord Mas also . to extend aelief aid of public works—(llear, hear). What public winks I .K. - _ S . • .., • dulitt. works Norio! enati*opa. ct, wonder abet some besi ,Peasikleitbat key, pseh. proposition, it had, been made—what he re ' with kit own ears. What the Ihe could not iroagiutr, inscept to t• carry into effect the plan Lord at .a former period,: 4 4 to 4 them up the nett".- 4,4 laugh). public works, it ought to be only coold afford them.; it was very . weeks could be vraryaated circumstances,. If parishes eastern 00p> would ha far-more advisable thick of carrying their public ,}forks into 044 0 atien till they could afford to pay for 14 0 415, , ) If, the, Were stiandateld to commence such sinprPvetikom before they. had own mortar/ t• Mf4 th 4 tieWendituye, and the Offer cif .Governinent ptp lead . ,weolcl operate as bush stimulus, who . was Akre that did.not see that it would inevitably induce ,sit oilcan to squander money on what, after all, ttkpc,. might only be imaginary improvements? : was there that did not see that it was-calcolated ilariareate ,parochial extravagance, and - usvas thaede- Ambleisihen the country had so lcng suffered under public profusion ?—(Hear, hear.)—Woulti it relieve the country, thus to create in every parish that spirit of profusion, of which the Government hod-so long been guilty, as he sheered on a former evening, by teference to the Finance - Committee's Reports 2 Meer, treat.)—He had already detained the House too-long ; but before he concluded he earnestly im plored the House to trust to themselves, and not to trust the managea:ent of his Majesty's Ministers, if the desire were to save the country. ,Goo forbid that any human being should covet the places of Ministeisl He thought none could be so desperate as to think of succeeding them, therefore he called on the House to compel the present Ministers to adopt measures that would relieve the country.— He called on the House lobe wise ere it was too late; he implored them to be wise in time, if they really desired to save that public credit which the system of Ministers threatened, and was most likely to de stroy. Let not the Country Gentlemen he afraid-- the Ministers ~ -ould not think of moving ! They had only to tell the Ministers that there must be reduc tions—and he would answer for it, down they would come next day with the desired tednctions ; only bid them to perform such work, and perform it they would. The Ministers. had been too long listened to—too long believed—(Cries of Hear, hear). It now became the House to think and act for them selves; they had too long trusted to empirics—they had too long confided in men who had only to bring forward the name of Napoleon to gerthe money and the gold out of the people's pockets ; they had trusted Ito men who only deemed it necessary to say," Jacco bin," and .. Radical," as an apology for taking away 'the people's liberties. 'Their authority for what they did was perpetual alarm; their specific was endless evacuatiOn—(Cheers and laughter). At such a mo ment, he again solemnly implored the House to bear in mind the importance of the vote they were about to give. If they desired that the Ministers should re duce, that reduction should be forced 'upon them. In his estimation, the vote of that night would be equal in importance to all the interests of the country—to any decision that had taken place within the last thirty years: and he therefore hoped that his prayer to them would not be vain, in imploring them, if they desired to rescue the country from its difficul ties, to compel the Minis:ers to adopt measures of re duction—(Loud cheering). Mr. HUSKISSON denied that the Noble Lord had changed his course in consequence of his (Mr. Brougham's) speech on Monday evening. He, how ever, might be allowed to retort on the Hon. Member, that he had changed his course in consequence of what had fallen from the Noble Lord. At that late hour he should not think of closely following the seve ral arguments of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman ; but he could not avoid expressing the hope that his (Mr. Brougham's) unsound principles and contradic tory inferences might not mislead the country or Parliament, for, if they were adopted, they would lead to a course that could not be easily retraced. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had referred to 'his speeches of 1816-17 ; they had only to recollect some of the dangers they then had to encounter. It would be recollected that masses of the population in the manufacturing districts were without employ ' ment, and necessarily in a distressed condition. Those distresses were so dwelt on, that the Government was compelled to apply to the Parliament for new laws to secure the people against those outrages that might have' followed, owing to the manner in which they were treated., At that moment what was the language used ? They were told that our commerce must be so bene fitted as to enable it to compete with that of other countries. He idnitted that the difficulties of that period were great ; the Revenue,• too, was then in a declining stalk.: but there was confidence in the amounrof capitaVanci a reasonable belief that prospe rity would revlie: The 'result proved that such con fidence was correct, .But of all the monstrous doc trines that had been put forward by the Honourable and Learned Member, .theniost monstrous was, that low prices weie occasioned by excessive taxation, the tax, too, being where the grower had the m ono p o ly of the market. „The Hon. and Learned Gentleman held that excessive taxation was the cause of the dis tresses of 'agricelture. He (Mr. Huskisson) maintained that the main cause was a redundancy of supply, coupled with measures adopted regarding the cur rency. When the war broke out in 1793, the country did not mite what was requiredfor the consumption, but 14 'a seoies,,of .measures And exertions that diffi culty had, been overvonve.*• , When the last Corn Bill was passed, the courittx, he - considered, had arrived at the period when the produce of the country could meet the demand. 'lt only passed under the convic tion that the country was not able to grow what was sufficient to meet the consumption. And there was another 'equally unfortunate impression acted on at that price of period, )feitiitysbnmilaiinelgsby, thoughtthHeefixing for the country a cli a Bill w i h t i a n d u iniw n p cl ed un ...... a . e As to the real state of the country, lie thought the ) 4 6:i a i d t d o ,l be eeti th ; e • t r factory o f ui o ci evidence f n:r be e atdh- overturned a t cn eo su u °l4 ld 4 any preemie, vies or new principles of economy. The 'consumption afforded the means of reds redundancy of supply ;and he therefore thou, t • , P 1 : I * t. i . . _ U hen SlitSitAtittertif • is Jatedi Ow people eau_ sot t . - riltert.llWlPotsrttbst. pohli is which they had a right tolook . to in the, prelreittsten..!fillis Of tildi?. His did na T wof thtle etiffertngs. The people had a " I ' l'elieTt it•peasibi "e ppAo.theit:itepresentatives tie thi pirtiss.whp ; ;illeuld.htt-Antitie,l ..lt had ih to relieve thew Croat all burdpas that mu net As- IMO to had how* with s- -usury for the public service. He considered e ver gmblis.:wouiss toitldnot he a- thing like a triflingtetlection as an insult to the copor was some intention le try ...,(Eksir,-. /tear)._ _ lit. looked fss a-Liega "'due*" posed hr the Noble L id of taxes : the more,they,reduced the burdens the more digibtletPred*Yeadfillti of they would act in -the strict hoe of their duty. the 1( tky ;AWOL of puta ii. Noble Lord disclosecLoaepart of his project, which lithett:thEptrithes..ceuld :h consisted itaentakiug„a,sea'n of trAe olilhons, which: ratte, libilruli.: that such es was to be added to the SitiltingPund, so as to make under 4flratkr citICUITIM m the Whole amount to iiir tiilliontatiti a quarter. This piscosi im,pmeetrients, it 1 A he did is the proxy of hisTrientfthethaikellOrtf Ilie..lq49tlrg.ilihegt. not to th 11 1 111 4 he most satia- ' ; he thought ;I ticeived theo- le increased reducing the thought there ~7