Star. — London, England, 1831-07-13 00:00:00

Sir R. INGLIS thought the Government ought to have grommet an outfit for lice Majesty, according to all former pet cialent. Lord ALTHOR P said he had before stated to the House, that Government was perfectly willing to make the pmpoe;tl to the House, and perfectly confident that the House would agree to it; but his Majesty, in consideration of the hurthen• of the country, had refused to allow it; and he was confident the country must be grateful for his con sideration —(ileac, hear.) The resolution was agreed to. The House resumed. Report to-morrow. TIEFOIM. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved, that the House resolve itself into a Committee on the Bill fur amending the repre sentation (0 E , lg4t.ld and Wales. Lord !11 A 1 T I.A Ni) said he was anxious that the borough of Appleby should trot suffer any great injustice under the Bill. Appleby contained two parishes, only one of which was put down in the population return, by which means it was made under two thousand. and put in schedule A, whereas it ought to be placed in the schedule B. The gaol and town-house of Appleby were situate in the parish of Saint Michael. s Well was ommitted in the population return. The noble lord was but indistinctly heard. General C tNN F.I.LY seconded the motion. Lord J. RUSSELL said that it was not • bill of pains and penalties that they (the Government) were pressing for. and he did not see that it was necessary to call in counsel to have their case argued. AVhatever mistake had arisen in the census might he corrected in the Committee; for if they on. e opened the door of the house, and admitted counsel for Appleby, it would admit a principle that would afford a claim to every other borough, and it might procrastinate the progress of a bill, the importance of which was so pressing. On these grounds he would oppose the application. The theta required could with equal effect be stated by the repre sentatives of the borough In the committee. Sir R. PEEL warmly supported the application, and con. tended that the petitioners should be heard at the bar of the house by counsel, to show that the principle of the bill was not applicable to their borough. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL rose to oppose the ap. plication. He reprobated the object of the petition to he beard by Counsel at the bar of the Muse. He considered that they bad come forward under that mask ; but that the real purpose was very different.—(Cheers.) It was absurd to suppose that the progress of the Bill would be stopped until Appleby had determined whether the principle of the Bill could be applied to them. If such were to he the case, every other borough night be ten pled to try a similar manwevre.—(Cheers). He considered that the presenting of the petition was an attempt to defeat or retard the mea sure—(Cheers). The repretentstivcs of boroughs were competent to give all the statements in the Committee, and if the petition was persisted in he was determined to i ut it to the test, and ask a majority of de House whether or not they would thus he trifled with on this momentous question. Mr. C. WY NN supported the prayer of the petition, and said, that it was strange to be told that the bill was not one of pains and penalties, and still that the petitioners would rut be allowed to be heard by counsel,—a privilege which would have been granted had the petitioners been really charged with alleged crime.--(Loud cheers from the Oppo. sition ) They only sought to state their grievances. What would be the case if it had to go before a jury; and that the jury should be told there was no necessity for hearing evi. ttence in favour of one prisoner more than another, but to bring in a general verdict on all. That there was no neces sity of ask ng, why sentence of death should not be passed upon them.—(Cheers from Opposition) But that this jury should be directed for this time to condemn them aIL And this, he concluded, would be precisely similar to the! con. chtct of the government, if they were to proceed with the bill, and refuse to hear the evidence. Mr. A TTWOOD said, that the learned Attomey-Gene ral was not warranted in asserting that the petitioners had come forward under a mask. The Honourable Member supported the application, and expressed his decided;op position to the Bill lie was loudly cheered by the Op. position. Mr. C. WOOD opposed the application to be heard by Counsel. Ile said, that the question could he put regard ing every borough separately in the Committee; there tright be several cases of the same nature. There was one he believed in the borough of Wareham.—(Cheers and laughter from the Opposition.) He was prepared to be cheered in this manner by the Hon. Gentlemen opposite; but when he rose he would appeal to the justice of the House, and not to its passions.---(Cheers from the Minis. terial benches.) His Majesty's Ministers had declared that if it could be proved that the principle of the Bill could not be applied to any particular place, that it would be taken into oonsideration ; but the question then before the House did not appear to him to be whether or not the principle would apply, but it was relating entirely to the manner in which the pnertf should be taken. S:r G. WA lIRENDER supported the petition. He could not be taxed with having come forward under a molt, f.,r he had no connection whatever with the borough of Ap. pleby ; he disavowed all party feeling on the subject, or any desire to oppose the present Ministry, whom he would have been happy to support. He was opposed to the principle of the Bill, and had voted against the second reading ; but there were points in it he approved of, and for these he would vo e. Such of them as were connected with that part of the country which he represented. He considered that if they refused to hear the evidence, the House was departing from all principle of its precedents, and that if it refused it ought to change the opinion of every moderate man who was favourable to the Bill. The House ought to comply with the prayer of the petition to preserve its character with the eountty. Lord MILTON and Lord J. RUSSELL explained. Sir. PRAED said he was opposed to the bill ; and he contended that every borough had a right to be heard by Counsel when they were about to be deprived of their rights. lie thought that the allegation of coming forward under a mask was most applicable to those allotted brought forward the measure. Ile had opposed the bill because he thought the principle cf the bill was bad and dishonest. Mr. D. W. HARVEY thought that the presenting of the petition showed the greatest instance of hostility to the measure that had yet been offered by the gentlemen on the opposition benches. It had not been done for bringing for ward Appleby to be heard by Counsel ; but it had been to plead the cau.e of all the enoearments of .he boroughmon. goring system. (Cheers.) There would be ISO boroughs who might wake application. and, on a moderate compu tation, to be heard by Counsel would occupy as many days, so that it would he at least 130 days before the bill could be got into a Comnrit.ee. (Cheers.) The question of the po pulation eas a stir pie question of aye or no, and not one requiting the pia...tree of silk gowns and flaxen wigs, nor that the House should be deluded by the sophistry of Lounsel. . . Sir E. SG GDEN supported the petition. The bill, he said, had been changed in almost every clause since its first presentment, in consequence of his Majesty's ministers not having been in possession of proper information, and yet they now refused to admit legitimate proof. It was the beunden duty of ministers to have possessed themselves of all the read and important facts before they had brought for. ward their bill. (Cries of Question from the ministerial lunches, and cheers from the opposition.) The learned ba ronet explained. Let us know, in Gon's name, how we are to be used, if time is so pressing that arguments cannot be listened to; but if the measure is to be forud unceremo niously on the house by the strength of the majority, and all o..posstion beet down, let it be done in the face of all Eng bend. and he *odd not attempt to speak against the mea sure, but content himself with giving a silent vote. He repioba.ed the sentiments that had been uttered by the At. tortley•Denentl. He cared not, though it would be as inconvenient to hint as any one, whether it would be 100 or rall days. He 'multi wish justice done, if it should occupy years, rather than to hear that the measure had been accom plished merely by strong parliamentary influence. Sir R. GRANT opposed the petition. He said that it was contrary to the precedent of the house, and instanced the roe of the Catholic Association, that had been refused to be heard by counsel at the bar of the House. Si, C. WETHERELL rose amidst cries of " Question, guts:ion !") lie had heard it admitted by the hon. mem her (Mr. t . Wood) that there was a case in Wareham, and why ought rot this of Appleby be treated as another case? lit should like to know who it was that had a licence to make mistakes, and setting them right? Did ministers mean to preset ve it exclusively to themselves, and to make and alter just as they chose The depriving of &borough of its ancient right to send members to Parliament, was a bill of pains and penalties. In the case of such bill wit. resses were always admitted. (Hear.) The noble lord had said the house were agreed even on the details of the mea sure. Had he read the notices of motions ? There were seven notices of amendments to the details. The two members for Northamptonshire, who should be but one, (a laugh) were, according to one of these notices (unless, indeed, a late meeting at a certain office had re-united them) as much two as two could be. To return to Appleby, how could . - . its population be ascertained from the schedules, which were perpetually making some new mutual exchange ? (Hear.) But the house had made up its mind. In the ,w• formed Parliament that might be a good argument. These, he had no doubt, numbers would be every thing. But the time (or such an insult to justice and to Great Britain, as to decide without discussion on the rights of Englishmen, was not yet arrived. Up to the present time no cue had occurred in which the rights, not of a borough merely, but of any in dividual member had been decided on without testimony being adduced. They had heard much about that house having lost the confidence of the people. Was a conduct such as ministers would now have them take, likely to secure that confidence ? (Hear.) Let them preserve that character of fairness and candour, which the Commons bad for centuries merited, and let them leave to the reformed parliament to aim at other attributes. (Cheers.) Lord A LTHOIIP said the hon. and learned member bad been betrayed by the flow of his eloquence into many ex agger.itions. Ile denial that government wished to decide without discussion. They said, in GOD'S name let the bill go into a Committee, and there let the case of each borough be sepsrately examined (hear.) He denied that the bill was a bill of pains and penalties (cheers.) Far from that it was beneficial to the whole of the community (cheers.) Ile contended that the way to judge of the population of Appleby was by the population return. How could you learn any thing of it by witnesses ? If not engaged in the population return, they knew nothing on the subject ; if engaged in it, you have their answer already (hear, hear). The honourable and learned member was surprised that his noble colleague in the representation of Northamptonshire should differ from him (Lord A.) in certain details. He (Sir C. W.) could not have observed their political career, for they had in many other cases dif feriAl. They agreed, however, in the prineples of the bill, aid as to their private friendship, that, he trusted, was un alterable.—(Hear.) %Vas this the way, asked the Learned Member, to secure the confidence of the people ? He (Lord A.) asked the same qui scion—Was it the way to secure that confidence to retard by pretexts and impediments the march of the reform bill ?—( t beers.) Mr. CROK lilt said, every one was agreed as to the correctneiis of the population returns. What the petitioners stated was, that by mistake two parishes bad been separa ted from each otber.--(Hear). He found that in the re turn of 1811, the places being classed by towns, these two parishes were united, and Appleby was made to contain 2,200 inhabitants, but in the next return they were classed by parishes, and the name of Appleby was sub stituted for the name of one of the parishes.—(Hear). He had expected that Ministers would have treated the case as they had done that of Buckingham. The peti tioners did not object to, or endeavour to defeat the principle of the Bill ; they merely asked to be admitted into that schedule, in which they should, according to that principle, be placed.—(Hear, bear). But let us discuss the question in committee, it was said but the Speaker would tell them that a Committee could not call witnesses, unless the precious sanction of the House had been given to that effect. He denied that this was a surprise or any mask. The Se aviary of State had been weeks ago put in possession of the circumstances of the present case, precisely as he had been put in possession of those relating to Buckingham, Truro and one or two others. He had read over the whole of the representations made to government, and, with the exception of Wareham, be found no case parallel to the present. It was these who refused to adhere to their own principle, and to apply their own rule in their own line, who deceived the people. Mr. J. WOOD explained. Colonel TOR RENS said the Right Hon. Gentleman had not read over the representations accurately. The case of Ashburton was similar to the present. He was surprised that so much zeal should be shown in the one cause, and so little in the other. Mr. CROKRR explained. Alderman THOMPSON felt the House was called upon in justice to accede to the prayer of the petitioners.—(Hear, hear.) He begged to state that the petitioners were a most respectable body of men. He was desirous to see the prin. ciple of the Bill maintained, but equally so to confine it within the bounds of impartiality and justioe.—(The woe. thy Alderman sat down amidst cheers and loud cries of question.) Mr. C. FERGUSON could have no objection to bearing Counsel at the bar. What he wished to know was, whether St. Michael's and Bungay were one and the same place. The returns of 1811 and 1821 differed on this point. He therefore wished to hear witnesses. Being a friend to the principle of the bill, he wished to have it violated in no instance.— (Hear, bear.) Col. I.OW THER would tell him in two words that they were one and the same place. After a few words from Lord J. RUSSELL, the division took place, when there appeared— Against hearing Counsel at the Bar .. 284 For hearing Counsel lB7 Majority in favour of Ministers 97 On re-entering the gallery, we found Col. CONOLLY speaking in support of an amendment to the motion that the house go into a committee on the English reform bill. The hon. member had moved, as an amendment, that the Speaker leave the chair that day six months. He con. sidered the present representation a perfect one. The dbl. franchisement proposed was incompatible with justice, sod with the British constitution. It was incompatible with the security of property. The British nation would not sanction such spoliauco, if acquainted with the facts. The elective franchise was identified with property—it emanated entirely from property—he could not consider them distinct. The' tenure by which the franchise was held, was the same as' that by which many members held their estates. (Hear.) At the Union with Ireland, compensation was given to the proprietors of boroughs. He then alluded to the press. The proprietors of the property under discussion were abused by it in the same manner as were the clergy of France at the be. ginning of the first revolution, by the press in that country. The axiom was, vilify those whom you intend to rob.—(Na, no, and cheers.) He had no connection with the borough mongers—(a laugh )—but he could clearly see that the abuse of the press was the effort of a weak party to uphold a cause it could not justify. The bill would democratize the repre• sentation—(Question)—it would demoralize the people. After a few words from Colonel SIBTHORPE, Mr. FAN E condemned the bill as a delusive measure. The ministers had been placed in a difficult position by the votes of the last parliament, and they had dissolved that par liament in order to maintain themselves in the government. (Hear.) The bill was decidedly democratic, and destructive to the best institutions of the country.— (He sat down amidst loud cries of question.) Mr. C. PELHA3I spoke of the bill as a most confused and incomptehensible piece of legislation, and defied members to ray that they really comprehended it. The bill went to remedy wrongs for the prevention of which there were already upwards of 100 statutes on their books. Mr. ATTWOOD condemned the bill as a most violent measure—as running at the destruction of one-third of the rights of representation. It was a sweeping measure of in. noeation—and it was to be decided by those who had been somewhat suddenly and violently called together. The Mi nisters seemed to lie decidedly ignorant of the value result ing from the incongruities constituting that house ; and of the value of identifying in interests both houses of the legit'. Lowe. It was said that the proposed house would not be a democratic assembly ; he would ask the noble proposer of the bill if he could point out any period in all history here such a house and an hereditary peerage had co-existed ? The authority of Lord Clarendon had been quoted on a for. mer night. He doubted whether the words were ever uttered by Lord Clarendon—but as they were uttered (if uttered) two centuries ago, he would put the undisputed possession in opposition to such opinion. There were the rights practised for centuries on one hand, and a doubtful autho rity quoted on the other. An old Act had been discovered, in which it was asserted, that elections " ought to be free." Who disputed that fact ? Had they not numerous laws to secure their freedom ? But did that Act justify the taking away of rights and franchises?—(Hear, bear) He would not impute private interests to any man, because the question was of such vast importance ; so extremely affecting present times as well as futurity, that all must desire to promote the interests of the country. But he called on them to rely on what experience had proved, rather than resort to systems the efficacy of which lied not been established. (Hear, hear.) From his ex. perience he could declare that the condemned boroughs me.' rited not their condemnation, but their support. (Cheers.) Their conduct bad been honest; they had returned the most valuable representatives. He had represented a bo. rough for ten or twelve years, and be defied any one to say that any other considerations than those of the public interests had guided his votes. Why then was his bo. rough to be disfranchised ? He would look to other boroughs ; see bow and by whom they were represented; Led Lidon and the elder Pitt had sat for boroughs, and then he would ask how could they justify it to them. selves to destroy such rights ? The borough system had ever supplied the house with its ablest and most effective members, yet that system was to be destroyed, and by revo lutionary violence. (hear, and a laugh.) It was said that the boroughs were opposed to the interests of the people; no, they were favourable to the maintenance et existing institu tions. In no country had talent been so encouraged and brought forward, and all had been encouraged through the medium of this condemned borough system. Ought they not to draw wisdom from what was passing around them in Europe and in America ? There were struggles proceeding, and for what ? For , the representative principle—for the " Sovereignty of the People"—, sovereignty that was inconsistent with the sovereignty of the Monarch. (Loud cheers.) If it triumphed, the Thrones must be in secure. Femme proved it. Would the principles stop ? Would Kings be allowed to remain ? On the contrary, must not the severest conflict arise, and must not blood flow in such conflicts? When such contests were proceeding, ought they to allow their Institutions to be cast into the general furnace of European revolutions? Ought they not to hold flutt by fixed institutions ? They ought, and be hesitated not to say, that the house had no right thus to place in jeopardy the rights, institutions, and liberties of the people. (Loud cheers.) They rested on the same foundation nigh the prerogatives of the Crown; and had the P..rliament the right to abrogate those prerogatives? (Cheers.) No; nor had they the right to abolish the fran chises proposed to be destroyed by this bill. (Cheers.) But it was to be carried ; and it it were endangered in the other house, there were to be new peers created. That was threat em.d ; but he did not believe that any ministers would have the audacity and profligacy to recommend such a proceeding (loud eneers) Ai hat would that be but the ministers elect ing of themselves to the other house, to carry their own measure (cheers). If that principle were to be adopted. where was it to stop ? He concluded, amidst immense and long-continued cheering, with repeating his decided condem nation of the principles and provisions of this destructive and revolutionary hill. Captain GORDON rose amidst tremendous calls of " Adjourn," "Go on, " Divide," &e He was enabled to say, that be did not desire to trespass on the House ; he only rose for the purpose of moving, that the further debate on the question be adjourned till to-morrow. (Cheers, and er es of " Yes. sdjourn," " No, don't adjourn," Be.") Mr HUNT seconded the motion for adjournment. The SPEAKER rose to put this question amidst loud cries for and against adjournment. A MEN! Bt. R in the side gallery excited no small merri ment amidst all the tumult, by exclaiming. " Olt, adjourn the debate, to be sure ; adjourn till ten o'clock to-morrow morning !" The SPEAKER was afterwards enabled to put this ma Con, when— The CH.INCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose. amidst loud cries of " Adjourn !" and said he should feel it to be his duty to oppose any adjournment of the question; if it were found impossible for the House to do more at that late hour (twelve o'clock). then resolve itself into a Com mittee on the Bill, he certainly could not think it was ask ing too much that the question before the House should be discussed at present. After a few words from Colonel Wood, Mr. Wynn, Sir R. Peel, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sia E. Sugden, and 111. C. Pelham, on the question of adjournment, Captain GORDON moved as an amendment, that the debate on the Speaker's leaving the chair be adjourned. The house then divided, when there appeared, For the adjournment - - 102 Against it . 328 3lajority for Ministers • 220 After some further discussion, from which strangers were excluded, a second division on the question that the Speaker do leave the chair, took place, when there appeared, Ayes - - - .280 Noes' . . . • PO Majority - - 196 Sir C. WETHERELL moved that the Louse be ad. journed till Thursday. The SPEAKER informed him that the motion could could not be sustained in that shape, as a division had al ready taken place on adjournment ; but the hon. ban. might put his motion, that the house, at its rising, be adjourned till Thursday. Sir C. WETHERELL then put the motion accordingly, and made a long speech. Mr. C. PELH A:11 seconded the motion. An Honourable MEMBER complained that the hon. baronet, Sir C. Wetherell, had been much interrupted in his speech. Colonel DAVIES and others opposed the motion. Lord W. LENNOX said he did not think that the hon. baronet (Sir C. Wetherell) could have been much interrupted in his speech, for he saw at least eighteen members fast asleep (Laughter.) Alderman WAITHMAN hoped that ministers would be firm, fur he had heard a great many soporific speeches de livered that night. The House then divided on the motion, that at its rising the House adjourn till Thursday. Against Fur .. 63 Majority for Ministers .. 172 From twelve o'clock till half-past three the gallery was kept shut, and strangers were eieluded, during which, we understand, the members were engaged in a long and de. sultory debate on the course of their proceedings, which ended in the two parties endeavouring to persuade each other that the faults were all on the side of their oppo nents. At that time we were again admitted into the gallery, and found the Speaker then putting the question, " that I now leave the chair ;" on which . . . Lord STOR3IONT moved that the debate be adjourned till this day, at five o'clock. He did that to show the other side that they were not to be browbeaten. If he were de feated, he would sit there till fire o'clock the next day. The motion being seconded, the question wu put. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the object of the noble lord having been gained, to make the house hear the debate, he hoped the noble lord would then allow the Speaker to leave the chair. A abort conversation ensued. Colonel WOOD teminded the Chancellor of the Exche quer that the government had always, after such a struggle, given way, and suggested the propriety of its then giving ; way, though he declared that he would vote with the noble lord, should he resist the motion for an adjournment. slr. STANLEY recommended the minority to consider whether thew might not strain their opposition and their va luable privilege of moving the adjournment too far. The only difference between them was as to a point of form, and i not any substantial advantage on either bide. He thought the minority of 63 should give way to the majority of 235. The minority would lose nothing, and the majority would pin nothing but the advantage of not yielding. If the minority would consent to the house going into a committee, pro forma, the house would be as ready to hear the opponents of thelmeasure when it came next before the house, as if they were not to go into a Committee at that time. Sir C. WETHERELL said a few words in favour of the adjournment. He thought the motion might stand adjourned till five o'clock. Such motions were frequently made by the ministers when they were in opposition. Lord A LTHORP had never moved an adjournment when In opposition, and had seldom supported such a motion. He had seldom seen a case important enough to warrant a mi nority in insisting on an adjournment. He could not, con sistently with his duty to those gentlemen who supported him, give way. Alr. S. PERCEVAL would support the noble lord op. posite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), with the under standing that the Opposition should have a right to eddies' the House again on the Bill in Committee. Mr. PR AED said a few words against agreeing to the motion of the noble lord. It appeared that at that time they were only required to consent to the motion for going into a Committee, to satisfy the dignity of the opposite party, which he, for one, could not agree to. There were loud calls for Question ! before the Honour able Member concluded, and on his sitting down strangers were again ordered to withdraw. Oa a division there appeared— For the adjournment . Against it 214 Majority . On our return to the gallery, the debate upon the question of adjournment was again resumed with much vigour on both sides, upon the motion of Lord STORMONT, seconded by Mr. PRAM:), after which the House again divided, when the numbers for and against the adjournment appeared to be— Noes Ayes bf ajority •• --111111 The adjournment was again moved, and after another die cussics equally animated, and carried on with equal perse verance as any of the preceding ones, ... • ~ .• • ' • . .... .11 . . . • • ill a • Sir R. !HOU . ; titouglit th,. Government ought to lave its population be ascertained from the schedules, which ever supplied the house w 4 t proposed an outfit for her Majesty, according to all former were perpetually making some new mutual exchange ? members, yet that system Pe ecolent. (Hear.) But the house had made up its mind. In the re• lutlonary violence. (hear, so Lord ALTHOR P said he had before stated to the formed Parliament that might be a good argument. These, boroughs were opposed to 1 I House that Government was perfectly time (or such an insult to willing to make the he had no doubt, numbers would be every thing. But the they were favourable to the pmpos;el to the House, and perfectly confident that thejustice and to Great Britain, as to Hons. In no country had A ll House would agree to it ; but his Majesty, in co n s id er ation decide without discussion on the rights of Englishmen, was brought forward, and all h 1. of tit: fmrthen of the country, had refused to allow it; and not yet arrived. Up to the present time no cue had occurred medium of this condemner he was confident the country must be grateful for his con. in which the rights, not of a borough merely, but of any in- not to draw wisdom from suleration —( Hear, hear.) dividual member had been decided on without testimonybeing Europe and in America ? •. The resolution was agreed to. adduced. They had heard much about that house baring and for what ? For . I The House resumed. Report to-morrow, lost the confidence of the people. Was a conduct such as the " Sovereignty of the .: P i ' ' a ETON M. ministers would now have them take, likely to secure that inconsistent with the sort P Lord 3011 N RUSSELL moved, that the House resolve confidence? (Hear.) Let them preserve that character of cheers.) If it tripmphi • - fairness and candour, which the Commons bad for centuries secure. France proved i k• itself into a Committee on the Rill fur amending the repro. fairness end let them leave to the reformed parliament to aim Would Kings be allowed • • ; h I 1 .1 . 4 , 1 . 1 0 1. ,~.~ i ~~ d • L Mr. ROBINSON asked those who were so pertina ciously bent en dividing the House on the question of adjournment, why they did not address the advice with which they favoured the Ministers, to buffer the minority to have their way in this question to their own party. He could only say this, that if the Noble Lord on the Bench were to give way to that opposition, he wea l's : el f t: nion that such a concession would endanger the Reform the fare of which was involved in the present struggle —(Cheers.) After some further discussion the house again divided, when the numbers appeared to be— ' For the adjournment Against it Majority 162 The inot Io n for adjournment was again pat, and after a consequent discussion upon it, in which Sir Charles We. tberell and others, who were opposed to the Bill, were very conspicuous. Sir J. BRIDGES said that, as it was impossible for the two parties to come to any compromise upon the question, he could not do better than propose to them to draw lots to decide which of them should retain their ground. (A loud shout of laughter followed this suggestion.) The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that the hon. baro net seemed to give his support to the motion because the house would not toss up upon this question. The house then divided for the seventh and last time, when the numbers appeared to be— For the motion ... ... 23 Against it .. ... 187 Majority ... ... —lB3 Sir C. WETHERELL then asked if no compromise could be entered into by the two conflicting parties. He was ready to declare that it was not his wish to impede the s of the Constitutional measure; on the contrary, he might pro probably be found among its supporters, but he thought that Hon. Members ought to be allowed to deliver , their sentiments on it. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that if it was sufficient, on the part of the ministers, to assure the hon. and learned member that the measure should not go on at the present moment, if the Speaker were suffered to leave the Chair, he would give these assurances, and would pledge himself that the only step that should be taken would be merely that the Chairman do take the chair pro forma to report progress, and then ask leave to sit again. He was toe anxious that every hon. member should have an opportunity to deliver his sentiments on the bill, and by this arrange ment such opportunity would be afforded him. The SPEAKER.—The question before the house is, that I do now leave the chair. As many as are of that opinion say Aye (a loud burst of Ayes). The contrary, No (one or two Noes). I think the Ayes have it. The right hon. member then vacated the chair amidst a volley of cheers, which continued for several minutes. The Chairman of the Committee of the whole House then took the Chair, and the bill was Introduced pro forma ; after which he begged leave to report progress, and to sit again. The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the house adjourned at HALF-PAST SEVEN this morning. Since printing the above, we are enabled to sub join, a more particular account of what occurred on the several remarkable divisons in the House of Commons last night, while the doors were closed, for which we are indebted to a very late edition of the Times : After we were excluded from the gallery divisions teak place on the adjournment—the opposition insisting that K raal members intended still to deliver their opinions; sad the members on the ministerial benches retorting, that the country had anticipated, and would perfectly understand, the factious opposition that was offered to proceeding with the bill. _ . ...- On the first division on the amendment for the adjours ment of the debate, the numbers were— For the amendment ... ... 102 Against it .. ... ... 328 Majority for ministers The original motion, " that the Speaker do leave the chair," being spin put, an amendment was moved upon it, ",that the house do now Adjourn." The house having divided, the numbers were— For the amendment . 90 Against it . .. 286 Majority for Ministers WU A great deal of warm debating took place on both sides, during the intervals between the divisions, Colonel Davies, Alderman Waithman, and other members urged Lord Althorp to persevere in resisting the adjournment ; antl - - Lord GEORGE LENNOX, in answer to a complaint that the majority would not listen with decency or patience to the speeches on the other aide, said—" Sir, I do most sincerely hope and trust that His Majesty's Ministers will not give in to the factious opposition, but that, let the lion. Member for Boroughbridge rack his invention as he may to create delay, they will meet him, and remain at their posts, supported by the house, till 12 o'clock to-morrow night.— The Hon. Member for Boroughbridge has complained of the interruption given to his worthy colleague : I can only say that interruption could not be great, as I counted 18 bon. gentlemen fast asleep, and if the hon. gentleman had looked to his right or left, he would have seen the right hon. baronet, the member for Tamwoeth, fast asleep ou one side, and the es-Chancellor .of the Exchequer enjoying a quiet nap on the other." Sir C. FORBES also addressed the house, and, alluding to Sir R. 'kers having left the house, said that be was not willing to trouble the holm. He (Sir C. Forbes) was ter. tainly ready to make a good fight in such a cause. lie only wished that they had or could find a gallant leader, but he was sorry that such a leader was wanting. The house then divided, we believe, upon Sir Charles Wetherell's amendment, and the numbers were— For the amendment ... Against it ... 2,5 Majority against the amendment Another amendment was then n:ade, the nature of which we could not learn, but it gave rise to a very warm discus sion. _ _ _ --- iie were Informed that several hon. members having ad. dressed the house, l'be CHANCELLOR of she EXCHEQUER ez. pressed his determination to persevere in going into Com. mime, if it were only to allow the Chairman to report pro. geese, and ask leave to sit again. He regretted the trouble to which the fulfilment of this determination would give to bon. members. but be felt it his duty to persevere after the opposition he had experienced. Mr. T. P. COURTENAV asked If the Noble Lord (Altborp) would pledge himself to use his influence that a discussion should be allowed on the motion for the Speaker leaving the chair tomorrow ? He could not help feeling that this was a reasonable request, considering the short dis. cussion which the question had had in this Parliament; and if the noble lord did not accede to it. he should be compelled to desert the banners of the noble lord, though he had fought under them for the last hour. _ ___ _ _ ___ ----- The Chancellor of the EXCHEQUER said that it was open to any hon. member to do that which the hon. member for Totness (Mr. Courtenay) asked him to pledge himself should be done. Several hon. Mascaras then addressed the House, ammg whom, one (whose name we could not learn) coupatulated the House that this discussion had been confined to them selves, as he really thought it was rather the reverse of being creditable to the House. (Cheers.) Mr. ATT WOOD addressed the House, and wondered what could be the motive of ministers. He feared it was in order to create in the minds of the public an impression that the gentlemen on his side the House bad a disposition to obstruct the course of public business. (Cries of "So you do," and tremendous cheering.) He denied the charge. u this a pan of the agitation which had been carried on by the servile adherents of °ornament ? (Lewd cries if " Order.") Lord EBRINOTON (as we were told) an to order. He bad never before heard moss unparli bri o = from any hon. member. Indeed seas Otis opposite side of the house had isloasd M ae. to' consider that they were above dose ralso to by the house, in order to secure deans, sad propriety Is their dis cussions. (Much cheering.) He bed been a of the Government, but be denied that bosom be haiiwa so, any man of good snaky would ddsk of calling him a " servile affisenne of the Clovetneent." (Cbsess.) Men who were at Ism as bemossablo led of as MO &waster as the hos. nessiee Desonebbeldge Ms Atwood) had also bees sappostero of the flovemmest s mid Is his own, and Is their is.., he cast bask tits linpeindos of " servile adbaency" with all the kalignation that pendent MS& LOW ARTHUR LENNOX must also , nation al the extraordinary language used member kr Boroughbridge (loud cheerin g atebil bashes.) Mr. ATIIIVOOD stated, that he had not Wile samosa to government in that house, =wile adhsrants to government in the count ei es. as:l Mosel FOX asserted that the hon. meml dimwit& " in the country." • Tbe SPEAKER rose to order, and after t wiry disorderly discussion closed. • bag conversation then took place, for sat nem, in which several Members declared . natmn w sit for 48 hours without intermission defeated by so factious an opposition. Lord HOWICK stated, that it had that day been e„,,,(. dently affirmed upon 'Change, that no less than 20 mew ) , had declared their determination to make long speech, night, in order to obstruct the prowess of the bill. (Cries, : " Shame, shame.") Sir C. WETHERELL denied that there was any mit' in such a statement. (Cheers from the opposition.) Wil 4 , ever side might have been wrong in this discussion, he a,. certain that the opposition was not the most so. He .01,ei the noble lord to state whether be thought they were s„,. (Laughter.) He waited for an answer. ( Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, thi it appeared from the statement of the noble lord oppest. hie object in bringing forward his amendment had bets a.. swered. The noble lord had stated that his object in pi, posing his original amendment had been to teach hon. mer. bees that they must hear the debate. He had obtained tl advantage of showing the house what might be done, if tl.- debates were not conducted regularly, and therefore he thoug.., that the noble lord might allow ministers to take one etc? t• advance, by going into the committee. Colonel TRENCH (we believe) contended that it a., competent for any member to address the house on an. subject, and denied that he and the hon. friends with shor he acted deserved to be taunted as factious opponents of L'it Government. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had nem charged the hon. gentlemen opposite with factious °pp% &Woo. It was certainly competent for them to pursue the course they had done, but it was another question 1Y bele :t was prudent and well advised. (Cheers.) Lord MIR INGTON wished to know why this oppo. skim was to be continued if no object were to be answer e d by it (Loud cries of Hear.) What epithet would the country attach to such an opposition ? (Hear, hear.) An boa. Mawsea (name unknown) contended that the house was struggling on a false point of honour. Did El gentleman believe that he should acquire a greater claim t' the attention of the house by wearying out gentlemen wa.‘ bad serious business to transact both by day and by right , (Laughter Col. WOOD said, as he had voted originally against the question of adjournment, would the Chancellor of the Et. chequer permit him to remind him, that on all questions at. milar to the present, government had hitherto always gives way.:,During the 26 years which he had been a member of that house, he had seen several divisions on the subject of adjournment. They had always led to an unprofitable loss of many hours ; but they were the only protection which the minority had against the majority. If this amendment were pressed, he should certainly vote against it. Still he thought the government would lose nothing by giving way. Mr. STANLEY agreed with Colonel Wood, that the ph. 'liege of moving the adjournment of the house was one of the most valuable that a minority could exercise. With that privilege he should be sorry to interfere; but the minority might overstrain it, and he.believed that they were doing so upon the present occasion. They had already divided three times, and on the last division the majority had been 253, and the minority only 63. He asked gentlemen on the other side of the house, as reasonable men, whether under such circumstances it was not more reasonable that the mil ority should yield to the majority, than the majority to the mino rity ? (Loud cheering.) He repeated the question, which party ought to yield—the minority, who would gain nothing by 'lining their point, or the majority who, on principle, ought not to yield to any thing ? (Cheers.) Sir C. WETHERELL had never heard the question of adjournment put on this ground before. If his memory did not desert him, he had seen the question of adjournment hims:lf moved more than three times—he believed even fin times—in one night, by the noble lords who now taunted such conduct as facti ous. (Cheers.) Lord BR UDENELL then withdrew the amendment. Lord STORMONT then moved the adjournment of the house till five o'clock this day. When the hon. member for Dundalk Bat moved the adjournment, he had asked him for his reasons. He had told the hon. member that it was too early, and that be bad better let business proceed till two o'clock (cries of " spoke.") His reasons for making this amendment were, that certain members in one corner of the house had most unfairly created uproar and confusion (cries of " no.") He felt it to be his duty when gentlemen assumed an imperious tone which they had no right to assume, to sit till 4or 6 o'clock in opposing it. In thus acting he was not instigated by any factious motives. Several other Members followed with similar arguments on both sides of the question. The House at last divided, when there appeared— Fur the amendment .... 214 Against it Majority for Ministers Another motion for adjournment was made during our absence from the Gallery. The AT I'OR NEY GENERAL said that it was ins portant that the Government should persevere in opposing this amendment, in consequence of the manner in which the minority were abusing their privilege in moving it.— (Hear, bear.) The objection to proceeding with the debate was not founded on any constitutional objections to the re form bill, but on the simple fact that an individual had felt that he had not been heard with sufficient attention at 12 o'clock at night. If such an objection were good for any thing on the 12th of July, it would be equally good on the 12th of August, or the 12th of September, or the 12th of October, and thus the great measure might be baffled to all eternity. (Cheers.) An hon. Mamma (name unknown) would not yield to this moot unconstitutional motion for adjournment. He looked to the quo mime with which the question of adjourn. ment was raised. He looked upon this privilege of adjourn ment not so much as a shield, but as a sword in the hands of the opposition, and therefore it ought to be used carefully. He noticed that Sir C. Wetherell was now deserted by his leader, who had now been quietly in bed for the last five hours. The minority had also dropped down to 44, and he trusted that if this factious conduct was persisted in, that numbers would decline still more. An opposition Mxieszacontended that all Ibis uproorhad been occasioned by the attempt to interrupt the hon. mew. bee for Dundalk in the liberty of speech. It showed weak ness in the friends of reform to refuse to hear their oppo. cents.—{Cries of 64 No, no.") Mr. 8. RICE said, that the Mends of reform were anxious to bear, because they knew they could refute, all the arguments of their adversaries. Every possible in ducement had been held out to the honourable member for Dundalk to address the house, but he bad refused to avail himself of it. After some conciliatory observations from the Cuaxcet- Loa of the EXCHZQCSI and Sir R. Isaias, Mr. PRAED said, that as ministers would gains step be the house assenting to go into the committee that night, he should support the adjournment. The very step which the ministers wished to gain was that which he and his friends wished to go on discussing. (Cries of " Oh, oh.") If there were nothing but a point of form involved in this discussion. be would not object to letting ministers have the advantage of it ; but it was a point of substantial advantage and there fore be would not yield it. It h a d been said that the privilege of moving the adjournment, which was intended as a shield foe the minority, had, upon this occasion, been used as a sword. He saw no reason why it should not. In the words of Horace be would say— " Me 'dud custodiet ensis Vagina tectue. Quern cur diatringere caner Tutus ab infests onibus ?" —(Cheers from the opposition.) An opposition Msnssa said , that though Sir R. Pe!' had been now in bed Ave hours, be was quite sure that the right bon. baronet did not man to desert his present patty (Qin of "Oh !") He should suppppooret the adjournment. because a question which mast be discussed in that house nighdy for Ave weeks to come, ought not to be discussed at &after 12 o'clock at n ht. After some further the house again divided. when the numbers were—. For the adjournment Against k . Majority .. Os our re-admission Into the pillory, the SIMMS tree petting the question that he should am Inve the Chair. became an 11.. • tit for an txp:,. rd by th e • be front the n.t l , ha mot alluded lon- ouse, but to i f,. (C country (cm, oi WI ober had not uu, 4 , tO r some lime tE 3 in n , which we h et red their deten t . 411 ion rather the, b t ith