Star. — London, England, 1821-02-17 00:00:00

I Mr. BRIGRT defended the conduct of the t. o f t he MUIR Mr. J. MARTIN called the attention of the House to the dilapidated state of the Museum. He thought & liberality of Parliament could not be more suit . a bly applied, and . he was confident that many vale legacies would be left to the Museum, able literary i t he buildil were in a better state. Mr. HANKES said, that the Museum had been see,eyed, and the result laid before the Treasury.— Toe Trustees thought that the renewal of the build might be gradual. A room, made fire - proof, tho Old °be set a part for the valuable collection of ma wb im eripts, which was at present i n t he centre of t he -bidding. It had been the object of the Trustees : .take the collection most available to the interests efliterature and science. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was the object of the Trustees to provide for the settnity of the Estahlkhment with as little expense as possible to the Public. lie trusted, that after what bad fallen from different Members, the Hon. Gentle man would consent to withdraw his motion. Mr. BENNETT said, that the attention of the geeper of the Museum was very great. He had re ceived every facility in viewing the collection ; but ev ery one had not that opportunity. Ile knew that t here was a sort of larceny carried on, which called for the greatest care of the library, which could not be so well shewn as the other parts of it. Very often the value of a book depended upon a single print, and that might be easily purloined. There was no admission into the libraries of the Universities. Mr. SYKES thought it strange that a man should be charged Is. 6d. for seeing the curiosities in West minster Abbey, and be charged nothing for visiting the more extraordinary ones of the British Museum. The motion was then agreed to. ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT. Mr. HUME began by animadverting in general terms upon the deficiency of the accounts, strewing the expenditure, from time to time, of the Ordnance Department, until such time as they could be of no ese, with a view to the controuling of that espendi tare by the House. He observed, that one general remark applied to several years past, namely, that in no instance had the actual expenditure of this De partment been commensurate with the amount of the estimates laid before the House from time to time.— He then instanced the years 1817, 1818, and 1819, in which it appeared that the actual expenditure fell short of the estimates respectively of those years. The Hon. Member then proceeded to compare the amount of the general expenditure of the Department. In 1791, the expenses ordinary, and extraordinary, of this Department were £506,000, including an old debt of £70,000. In 1792 it amounted to £419,000; in 1793 to £513,000, making an average for three years of £440,000 per annum. Let the House now look to the more recent expenditure of this Depart ment. In 1818 it amounted to £1,400,000 ; in 1819 to £1,500,000; and in the last year to the same amount. But, in fact, the real difference between the amount of the expenses of this year, and those for the year 1819, ought to be estimated at £150,000. lathe Artillery Department the expenditure amounted to Et 3,071, being £BOOO more than the Commis sioners of Inquiry thought ought to be fixed for its amount. The whole Civil Establishment of this branch in 179'2, amounted to £78,000; in 1796 to £31,650; in 1805 to £91,000; in 1808, by warrant of the King, to £104,000; and in six months after the warrant was ksued, it came to £122,000. It ap-• peared also, that .there was an item of 1:30,000 in gratuities for length of service ; and he believed, ge nerally speaking, that these gratuities were paid to those who received severally the £43,(X)0 already spoken of. The amount of gratuities in 1796, was limited to £2,300, and this sum was given, acciord mg to the words of the Report of the Committee, solely fur the purpose of enabling the objects of them to meet the temporary increase in the price of provi sions. In 1812, the gratuities amounted to £BOOO ; in the next year to £9000; next to £lO,OOO, and so on, and now it amounted to £30,000. Again, the Sesretary to the Master of the Ordnance had a sa lary of £3OO a-year in 1796, and this was increased to the enormous sum of £2OOO per annum ; indeed, so enormous did it appear, that the Committee of In quiry recommended its reduction to £l5OO a-year.— The Under Secretary, in the same year ' had a salary of £3OO a-year. This office was abolished, but the sa lary was not saved, for it was divided amongst two clerks who were in the office—(Hear). There was the same disposition to extravagance in every other De partment. For instance, in the establishment at Dover, the salary of the Storekeeper, in 1796, was £120; in 1801, £5O a-year was added; in 1808, £5O a-year more, and now that salary amounted to ER* a-year. He considered the depots of Artillery unnecessary. The Colonial Department was marked by the same extravagance. He thought that, without the slightest inconvenience or impediment to the business of the Department, the expenditure might he reduced from £1,500,000 to £1,100,000. Now the House would be curious to know what was the nature of the see-, vice performed for this expenditure. He would take a single Department, that of the Royal Engineers as Sheerness, in which the Public was annually charged £1,200 for superintendence. Now, what was there to be superintended ?—Nine workmen (eight labourers and one servant)!—(Hear, hear).—Again, at Favers ham there was an establishment, kept up at an et. pense of £3,000 a-year, for manufacturing gunpow der, where, strange to say, not a pound had been manufactured for some years! (Hear, hear). — The mills and premises had been actually sold, and }'et, after the sale of them, there appeared that an In. Spector of Gunpowder was appointed !—(Hear, hear). in addition to these facts, it further appeared, that two Clerks, belonging to the establishment at Sheer tess, had let their houses there, and went to reside at glienborough ; that two labourers also let their cot, hies to keepers of convicts, and went also to resi Queenboroughl—(Hear, hear).—He had next to call the attention of the House to another branch of the expenditure of the Department. There were seven vessels belonging to the Ordnance Department, called magazine -ships, and the expense of keeping them w £8 ,700 a-year. He would tak e one o f thena l as an example, to serve for the understanding of the rilan '.&erneut of the rest. The wages of the men be ng to one alone, of sixteen tons, amounted to 4430 . He begged here to notice, that not only the wants, but the Masters of vessels, in the employ mof the Ordnance Establishment, werepermitted Tres• ana .a±A eve/ tri, li . - . . , to vote at Telections, contrary to all analogy of prac- Dublin was as expensive as the whole of Ireland tice. In the ship just mentioned, two of - thltJuraes beilde, for he found the whOle expense of Ireland. of Queenborough were the Masters; and he had beeri was £8,160, while that of Dublin seas £7,660. The informed that the vessels never performed a'trip, un- next line included a charge of £17,000, but he could less for the - purpose of carrying wood where they not say what it was for. Now that such an exoenie ought not to carry it. In short, no less than sixty-six should have arisen in the Ordnance Estimate, was to freemen of the Borough of Queenborough were em- him a mystery. In point of artillery, she had not ployed in the craft of the Ordnance D e p ar tm en t ; an d one fourth part as mu c h as England, yet he,found it was not to be forgotten, that there the power of the whole charge for Ireland £22,000e--(iliar). returniag a Member to Perlianient was in the hands . He would say once for all, that the payofthe Off eers of three Magistrates!—(Near, hear). — Was he nor, was too high. In a time of profound peace,. with then, entitled to say, that the whole expenditure of nothing to do, it was full 40 per cent. higher than this Department was a sacrifice to electioneering at arty time of the war, I sheen their duty was great purposes? This was corruption in its broadest sense. est. Money, since 1811, haleisen 25 per cent. and Let the House attend to the peculiar circumstances' by their being relieved from the Income Tax, they. which marked the whole economy of this Depart- got 10 per cent. more, which, with other allowances, ment. If a poor labourer appropriated to himself made their pay full 40 per cent. better than during , only a few brass nails, he was subje c ted t o the p un i s h- the war. In a time of di s t ress lik e t h e present , g re a t ment of felony ; but it seemed that a storekeeper could reductions of the public expenditure ought to be made. engross a whole boat-load, not only without impunity, A Committee, free from the baneful influence of the but without inquiry !—(Hear, hear).—He understood Crown, would do much good. The Noble Lord, too, that a quantity• of coals were annually taken from might increase his patronage, by lessening the rum the King's stores for the use of certain members of ber of offices, for the fewer there were to give away, the establishment. He did not know but this might the more would be looking for them—(A laugh).— be an allowance sanctioned by custom and autho- This ought to be an important consideration With the rity. He merely wished to ascertain the fact, and Chancetior of the Exchequer, who could thus at once to place the matter upon its proper footing.— diminish the public expense, and increase thepetronage One manufactory for gunpowder would be sufficient. of the Crown. As the accounts were now presented We were not now in the same situation as at the to the House, no man could possibly tell what the' commencement of the French war, when it was ne- expense of the Ordnance Department had been in cessary to keep such establishments as these till they any one year, He would have the public ledger were wanted. It could not be defended on any ground laid regularly before the House. The Compeqsation but that orpatronege. The Hon. Member also cx- List, he observed, was increased this year from cepted to an item of £3,000 a-year for gunners. He I:10,000 to £42,000. Thus, whilst we saved £20,000 would shew that some serjeentse who had large sala. n - year by the deaths of O ffi cers or soldiers, we were ries, lived at twenty miles from their offices—nay, losing double in the Civil Department. It would be some of them kept grocers' shops at that distance— seen by the list of pensions, that persons who had only (hear, hear).—At Woolwich, where only £1,400 been two, four, or perhaps six years in the service, was charged for workmen, a sum out of all proper. had been gratified with pensions. He concluded by Lion was eharged for clerks and overseers; and it moving, e That the Ordnance Estimates fur Great was,a fact that in some departments there the num. Britain and Ireland, for the present year, be laid he. ber of overseers was more than equal to the labourers fore the House, with distinct columns, stating the —(Hear, hear).—He also protested against the intro- salaries, pensions, and gratuities of each Officer, and duction of a Paymaster for these men, who had a distinguishing such Officers as were appointee since salary of £4OO, though in 1796 they used to be paid 1793 ; also for the like Account as it stood in 1796, by an office check. A Surgeon, for attending only that the House might be enabled to compare them." fifteen men, had £3O or £lOO a-year. He did not now Mr. WARD had no objection to produce the Pe complain of the extent to which these establishments pars called for; but he complained that be was taken had been brought during the war, but what he quite by surprise by the long and elaborate speech wanted was, that they should be now discontinued— which the Honourable Member bad just concluded. (Hear, hear).—He next objected to a general item He (Mr. Ward) had contented himself with laying the which, under five heads, stated a sum of £35,000 ordinary Estimates on the table; and if more infor a-year for taking an account of the remains of stores. illation was wanted, he was not indisposed to give it, In this department there must be great mismanage- when he was better prepared, being taken on the pre. ment. lie understood the practice was to send down sent occasion entirely •by surprise—(llear, 'hear). — persons from headsquarters to the' ports to take an The statements of the Ilonourable Member, though account of these stores, but he asked why it could made with all the help of figures,. calculation, great not be simplified and made less expensive? Again, industry, and more labour, were, in the main, incur. there was a charge of £2,000 for labourers at Sheer- rect to a degree. The Honourable Gentleman had ness, Woolwich, etc. but - why was not the number at given him such a notice, previous to this discussion, each place specified? Another allowance of £.5,600 as prepared him to expect that he sluould be called for books and paws was by much too extravagant. upon for an explanation of the first item only— The Committee had made allowances to Officers of namely, the £42,000 for the Office in Pall-niall; yet Engineers, but no one could say, by looking at the had the Honourable Member launched into a wider Estimates, whether the Staffs of the Corps were in- field of discussion, in which, however, he (Mr. Ward) eluded under the item set down against them. All not having his papers by him, would not now pretend these Accounts were loose and unsatisfactory.-- to follow him. He could, however, set him right in Again, he called the attention of the Honourable one or two facts, and the House would then appre- Member to the recommendation which was given ciate his authority as to the rest, when they saw his him of setting down the four Artillery Corps in the fallibility in these, In his first observation, then, the Ordnance Estimates by corps, as our Regiments are Honourable Member had fallen very wide of the in the Army List. There would be a satisfaction in mark, with figures, calculations, patience, and labour, looking at the number of corps,_ specifying the he states , gravely , that, since last year, the reeuction strength of each, and the number of Officers, instead in the Ordnance Estimates sets only three thousand of a confused lumped up charge of £271,000 for pounds. Wonder-full—Why, if the Honourable Mem the whole: £52,000 was too large for the Corps of ber had looked at the most ordinary papers connected Engineers, though lie admitted they were not to be with that department, he would see that the reduc made in a day ; but what he wanted was, specific tion, in fact, was not three thousand, butfity-three account of the mouey expended for each particular thousand pounds!—(Hear, hear).—This was not the service. - With regard to the Military College at first time he regretted that the Honourable Meniber Woolwich, it was quite impossible to say why £7500 and he had misunderstood each other. The Honour. should be set down for it. By the Reports Of 1812 able Member stated the expenses of the year to be and 1816, this establishment cost the country/37,350, £1,500,000, whereas, in fast, they were butt' ,527,000, --pin Hume said he spoke from the Report of the but no account was now given of when the reduc tions had taken place to bring it down to the pre- Finance Committee.]—( Wear, hear).--me WARD sent charge. Was the reduction in Students or Ca- said that was no authority. The Honourable Mem, dets? By the last reduction, 150 Students still re- ber had asserted that the reduction was only £3,000, .mained on the establishMent, too large a number but he would shew him what that reduction was in still, if we take into account the Pension List also. fact. In all the Civil Departments of the Ordnance These 150 Students get, say three years instruction, there was a saving, except in that of the Civil Super but there must go out 50 every year-50 must, in annuation alone, -and there the increase was £1,600. other words have commissions. Now were there 50 He was sure, when the House understood the prits commissions vacant yearly ? There were not; and it ciples upon which that branch of the establishment was therefore not only a useless expense to the coun- was conducted, they would never quarrel with Go- try to continue them, but an actual loss to the young vernment for increasing it—( Hear, hear).—ln the men themselves, who were thus kept unprovided for: Ordinaries, £758 was struck off; in the Extraordi, He called on the Honourable Member to discharge naries, £9,000;• on the Unprovided List, £20,000, more of the Cadets, and take some of the Half-pay and on the Military Superannuated List £20,000, Officers from the Army in their stead. It was long In Ireland, it was true, the reduction was as small a complaint in the Army that the Military College as 1:143.—He insisted, therefore, if the Hon. Member was shut against them. The next account was one put all these sums together, he would find the whole headed " EZtraOrdinarieS r but under these were reduction about £so,ooo—eot £3,000. Le uno disci three sub-divisions, " Repairs, Current Expenses, and omnes— if he made mistakes in one point, he was no Contingencies." With regard to the repairs, he great authority in others. The Hon. Member seemed never could learn from any Officer where they were to build his calculations in his own surmises. He (Mr. wanted ; and indeed it was hard to name even the Ward) protested against the use of a Report of the staticns which ought to be specified in this estimate. Finance Committee, as any authority opposed-to his A good deal of this expense, he observed, was incur- statement. Such Reports were of no value when they red in the stations abroad, yet one could not but ask were not afterwards adopted by the House, or passed what great cost did it require to keep mud and stones into a law. The Duke of Wellington was very wil in repair? Of the Current Services no details at all ling to reform any species of abuse. His first inquiry arc given. Then, under the head " Extraordinaries," was, when a situation was declared vacant, whether he observed £280,000, which was extraordinary in- or not it could net be dispensed with in future ? was not true that, whilst the poorer clerks of £BO deed. A thing thus bulked no one could decypher i lt a-year Were discharged, the Master-General had had what its application was meant to be. He next oh. served £40,000 " for Stores." On this, he would only , his salary doubled. The fact was, anterior to the ask, why, when we were selling old stores every day, I Union with Ireland the salary was £l5OO a-year ; we did nut. pause before we voted more money for but, upon th e Ordnance of the two kin g d o m s being new ones? The House ought to insist on some more I put into the same hands at the Union, the salary was satisfaction on this head particularly. One observe- I soon after (1802) raised to £3OOO. He hoped this tion he would now make on public accounts gene- 1 statement would go fairly" to the world, but not rally. It was clear, from the way - these accounts through the medium of the Hon. Member himself,; were drawn up, that a bad practice prevailed of letting I who, in a Report of his speech on a simi)ar occasion,: written confessedly by himself; and sent to a Mo r aine the unsettled yearly accounts stand over for three or i Paper, committed the most glaring inaccuracies—eil four years. The House saw, that, it was only in 1820, • that the accounts of 1818 were finally pessed (Hear).ilaugh).—'fbe Hon. Member then, after going into; He greatly feared that these accounts were not under I some calculations in a n swer to Mr. Hume s pbserva-i proper controul, else this delay would not be permit.' Lions, stated, that his own salary had been reduced, ted. He called for some explanation au the immense! from £l7OO ao 1:1100—(Hear, hear). Another Hon.' charge for the Irish establishment. Ile was sorry to Friend near him had had his ;e salary reduced £2OO al see that that of Dublin, including simply the pay of year. Did ate Hon, Member doubt this? But he officers and other expenses, was £7,660, equal in ex- I , feared th ere were some Gendemen in th is world whose! pense to that of WOOlwich, and exceeding consider- I disposition to mistate, no .correction could cure—, ably the whole of the other Irish establishments. The (Hear, hear). ' With respect to the Secretary of the Hon. Member, when referring to his papers, here' Master-General of the Ordnance, he was a person corrected liiiusell ) and said he was wrong in saying , whose office was one Ofgreat labour and responsibility. At a time when a great press of business came into ! e office, a clerk was appointed to assist, and £3OO a-year was taken from the sala r y of t h e U n d er Secretary, and given to him. This office had nothing to do with that of Private Secretary to the Master-General.-- With respect to the Inspector of Powder, there were two magazines, one at Waltham Abbey, the other at Faversham. The Inspector was obliged to reside at one place or the other, and that Officer was allowed to live at Faversham ; but he would not remain there long, as the whole establishment will shortly be re. moved. The Honourable Gentleman, in his long statement, had said, the whole of the extraordinaries, amounting to R 272,000, had been expended on re. pairs. The whole sum expended in works amounted ohry to £85,000. Extra pay had been noticed. It Was a necessary allowance made to an Officer for ex. penses, and was much abused for not being sufficient. With respect to the Establishment at St. John's Wood, the large houses 'made a good, appearance, but The Officers would prefer an allowance in money rather than the houses. The fact was,. are Ordnance had houses upon long leases, and they found a diffi culty in getting rid of them. If the Honourable Member wished for one, he might have it on reason able terms—(A laugh), The Ordnance Estimates, on the whole, were brought to more perfection than they had been for years. He should have no objec tion to lay the Papers required by the Henonrable Gentleman before the House, but the motion for; the production of the ledger mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman, he should oppose. The honourable Gen tleman had stated that the Establishment at Dub lin was too large. It was not larger than necessary. A complaint had been made with respect to Sheer ness, but every person now knew that it was intended to make that place more important than it ever had been. It was not extraordinary if Officers stationed there were allowed to remain in houses with their families, but it was extraordinary to find the Hon, Gentleman jump from Sheerness to the Island cf Ceylon, for the purpose of complaining of enormous expenditure, which really could not be traced. The Ordnance in the East Indies had acted in pursuance of tEe interests of the East India Company, and every attention bad been paid to economy, as well as the interests of the country. The Hon. Member's statement respecting the misapplication of stores was grossly false. No Officers were sent down to sell old stores, but to take an account of old stores. He appealed to the House whether he had been treated fairly in being called upon in this way, without do. cuments,: to give explanation? The Hon. Member had taken no notice of the additional expense in Ire land—the addition cf the Horse Police, the Driver Corps, Horse Artillery, new Colonies, and relations with America. When those charges were fairly con. sidered, it was matter of surprise that the Ordnance Estimates were so low—( Hear, hear). Sir 11, FERGUSON expressed his surprise, that in the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who 1 - .ld just sat down, he had left untouched the principal argument; which was, the increase of salaries to the Clerks and other Officers. In this respect he had left the argu ment where it was. Sir H. PARNELL contended, that the speech of his Hon. Friend had been left unanswered by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, He had not touched at all or accounted for the enormous increase of salaries, Now, without entering into any detail, he would read an extract from the Sixth Report of the Committee of Finance, in the drawing up of which he believed the Right Hun. Chief Commissioner of Woods and Fe. rests (Mr. Iluskisson) had a principal share. The Repot t, after alluding to the progressive increase of salaries in different Departments, stated, that «of late years a system of progressive increase of salaries had been extended to most of the Public Officers ; but in the Ordnance Department (which, continued Sir Parnell, the Hon. Gentleman opposite maintains tq be so low and economical)—in the Ordnance Depart, ment this was carried t o t h e greatest length"—(l -ear), This, he contended, Was sufficient to convince the House of the fallacy of the lion. Gentleman's speech, Mr. TREMAINE said, it appeared to him incon venient, in a Committee of Supply, to vote the Ore; Hance Estimates in one sum. Sir W. CONGREVE said, that a saving of nearly million of money had been made to the l'ublic by the use of particular machinery in the n:anufacturc of gunpowder; and it would be a pi ty t h at that which had produced so much bene6t should be abolished. A division then took place upon the first ltesolu, tion, when the numbers were-- For the Motion, 44 I Against it, ts Majority, 14. Mr. HUSIE then moved, " That an Account of the actual Expenditure, from the Expense-ledger, be annually laid before this House, on or before the 15th day of April, if this House be sitting, or, if not then sitting, in ten days after the meeting of Parliament.* Agreed to. Mr. HUME next moved for "a Return of all Pen sions, Allowances, Compensations, and Emoluments, in the nature of Superannuatians or retired Allow. antes, granted under the arth cf George 111. to Per, sons belonging to the Office . of Qrduance in Great Britain and behind, or to their Widows, in respect of their having held any office of a civil nature in the Ordnance Department, together with the principle on which they were calculated, and stating whether the Offices to which such Persons belonged had been abo lished."—Agreed to. Mr. IL WARD moved—" That the Ordnance Estimates presented this evening be printed." Mr. HUME observed, 'hat there was no use what soever in printing those Estimates, since they gave no information to the House. If the lion. Gentleman had sincerity in his heart, and wished to grant infor mation, he would have laid Estimates of a more mi nute character before the House. What, he wo u ld ask, was the use of printing Estimates, from which no information could be derived ?__(Hear, hear).-- Here were totals of £20,000, £33,000, and £30,000; but as to the particular items, they were left COr . pletely in the dark. Mr. HUSKISSON said, the Estimates had been made up in conformity with the plan laid down in former years. The Hon, Gentleman, however, ob jected to their being printed, and galled for a more minute detail. Now, what was the conduct of his Hon. Friend? He offered to give to the Hon. Member any detail that he might think proper to call for. He refused no information, however detailed—he did not shrink from any dissection, however minute. The Estiniates stated the total sum necessary for the Ord nance Department, during the year. The first article