Star. — London, England, 1823-02-20 00:00:00

!I % ~ "..'4f , ••' • .!.1... - 4 Islust against it, pepvided the Jougnigapf the Psi' w hat the laws could not reach, public contempt-could. was not disrespecdul.to theAkon fie could not, --He was not here to answer for the conduct of the howevee,:vit Gown without airtielUg an inconsistency Bensons :he did not call them, incense he had no use into whlgh these notable Petitioners had fallen. He, for them; he disclaimed any Connection with them: by the Way, had never heard that the Jesuits made a bet it must be.considered that they were not there to • phint.if suppressing improvement. He believed, and answer for themselves; and, when they did stand upon had 'always understood, that education was their ob their own trial; it was to be hoped they would beoble jest towards their proselytes, though they. might to relieve them elves from the load of guilt which endeavour, to give a perverted turn to its effects.— hung over them. All he asked in their Favour of • • The Petitioners, however, thought otherwise, and public opinion was, that -the charges against them I that the object of the Jesuits was to keep the human might not be taken as proved, until they were charged I mind iii darkness; but it appeared that the Petitioners with, and tried upon the specific offences.—The themselves were no great proficients in the first rudi- Learned Serjeant commented upon . the circum- ments of education—he meant the art of spelling— stances attending the marriage, and urged that, from (Laughter).—He had just run his eye over the Peti whit was given in evidence, it appeared the Earl tion, and he found they had mis-spelled ; and. of all was extremely anxious to get married ; in which de- words for them to spell, they had mis-spelled the sign Lady Henrietta Wallop has laudably endea- . word " Intolerance," to which they had given three voured to assist him in mafcitig a choice, although e's ; two es had they given to the word „ Jesuit," but Ladies were not always willing to aid in procuring then they- had taken care in return to deduct an e a husband for others—(Loud Laughter).—lt ap- from the word " pervade"—(Laughter):--The Yeti peared that Lord Portsmouth must have been ac.- tion was then ordered to lie on the table. quainted with Miss Hanson for some time: and al- Mr. BROMILOW said, he had a third Petition though he had fallen into an improper marriage, and to present, similar to the other two. It would, he the conduct of the family was indefensible, yet he trusted, be fOund free from the fault which bad been had done no more than what thousands of undoubted detected in the last by the Honourable and Learned wisdom had done. The Hansons had undoubtedly Gentleman. He was again free to declare, that he acted improperly; but let it be recollected, that, how- had never heard of the existence, in any part of Ire ever culpable the act might be, it carried its own pu- land with which be was acquainted, of an Order of nishment with it—it carried the punishment of public Jesuits—(Hear).—He assured the House it was pain opinion—contempt would mark them wherever they ful to him to be called upon to present Petitions went. It formed a powerful instance how which contained matter likely to cause irritation— ., Even-banded Justice (Cheers).—lt was the curse of Ireland, that one part " Returns the ingredients of the poisoned chalice of her population had always been arrayed against " To our own lips." the other—( Hear). This would apply to all who helped forward that marriage. What must have been the feelings of that Mr. GRATFAN thought a discretion ought to be family during the last fortnight ! How must they, in exercised by Hon. Members as to the presenting of the bitterness of their hearts, have deprecated that such Petitions. if such a Petition as the present marriage! How must they now deplore departing from were offered him b his own- constituents, he would the straight road of truth and integrity, from motives not present it. of interest and ambition, to wander in the labyrinths Sir HENRY PARNELL said, he firmly believed of guilt and crime! no such Order as that mentioned by the Petitioners One of the Jury now observed, that if the Learned had ever been established in Ireland. Serjeant found himself fatigued, it was not wished Mr. SPRING RICE said, he could rot state Whe that he should proceed.—Merjeant Pell immediately tlier such , an Order had or had not been established. said, he should feel obliged by being permitted to He knew an impiession prevailed in some parts of resume his speech to-morrow. —The Court accord- Ireland that it bad. Even if it did, he was not aware ingly adjourned. that that circumstance of itself constituted an offence. He believed most of the complaints against the • Je suits arose out of their political conduct ; and as they had now lost all political power, he thought they would do good rather than otherwise. Sir THOMAS LETHBRIDGE said, that al though the Petitioners were not members of learned Institutions, and although they had not received so complete an education as some Hon. Members, their complaints were not le.s entitled to attention. For his own part, he had no doubt that some such an In stitution as that complained of, or similar to it in principle, did really exist. . Mr. BROUGHAM explained. He had not the slightest intention to reflect on the want of education of the Petitioners. He had only intended to notice the inconsistency into which they had fallen, by ac cusing the Jesuits of a desire to keep- people ignorant, while they, the petitiuners themselves, who had of course drawn their education from other sources, ap peared ignorant of its first rudime.it..—The Petition was then °nieced to lie on the table. IRISH SALT DUTY. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON presented a Petition, which he stated to be numerously and respectably signed by persons engaged in the provision trade at Cork, com plaining of the effect which the repeal of the English Salt Duty had had upon their trade. This would be at once perceived, when it was found that, before the repeal in question, the English bore a propOrtion to the Irish Salt Doty of fifteen shillings to two. This inconvenience had also been =Eli increased by the removal of the drawback, which had been taken away by the Repeal Bill. He was well aware that the Chancellor of the Exchequer last year, who Was now a Noble Lord in another place, bad aeted in'the kindest way towards Ireland on the occasion in ques tion, and that he had no tuterition to . cause the injury which he bad Pointed out. ketruited the Bight Hon. Gentleman opposite would see the ;necessity of re storing the drawback. Sir JOIIN NEWPORT said, that as he should have a similar Petition to present, he took this oppor tunity of stating his concur' ence in what had fallen from hi L Hon. Friend. The C.ll-A 1 CELLO II of the EXCHEQUER said, he was very anxious to give the molt, laminable cep sideratiOn to the case of the Petitioners, He was per fectly aware that the. reduction of the Sslt Duty would be priudicial. to some interests, and it.was his desire to.afford them every possible benefit. A diEficulti, hoWever, had presinted itself in the case of the Petitioners, princiPalli . arising Out of the Union Act. If it could be got over, he shoild bugled to render every assistan ce to the Irish provision Trade— aka/I.—The Petition was Ordered to lie on the table. IBlsi POSTAGE., .Mr. C. lIU,TCFIII4SON 'preset4ed a Petition froth certain Merchants of Cork, complaining of the heavy rate of postage on letteri between Great Britain and Ireland.. The postage of a letter from Loridon to Cork, he believed, was ls. 10d. while that for an equal or a greatr diitance in lengland was bat Md. He hoped this grievance would be remedied . by hii Majesty's Government. Mr. F. LEWIS said, that postage could not be considered as a mete tax. The tax consisted only in the difference between the sum expended and that re ceived—a difference I..vhiah• was much less in the Teasel than in the English Post-office. Sir JOHN NEWPORT conceived that this was of no consequence as applied, to the present question. In consequence of the poverty' of Ireland it had leis of communication by letter; but on 'Wit account the grievance pressed more on those wholeeeifed letter& Mr. GOULBURN said, the rate of prioge was necessarily higher upon letters from England to Ire land than from one part of England to another: I% expense of shipping was very considerable, and this being taken into account, the present rates were pot po bg conceived too Mgh. . Tet ti on was then read and ordered to.lie on '4lte table; as were one presented by Mr. Sritttio RIC; from Tipperary, against the Coroner's Bill, and one by Sir JOHN NEWPORT, from Waterford, res te ting , the Irish . Salt Duty, simaar • to that preSep 'fro. Cork by Mr. C. HuicimitiON. PUTHWARIC Mr. C. CALVERT presented a Petition from the PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 19. The Loau CH•KCZWIR heard Appeals. The Bishop of CHESTER adverted to a notice - given last Session of Parliament, to bring in a Bill to amend the Act of George the Second, respecting the Solemnization of Marriage. The subject would, probably, occupy the attention of the Corn mlttee sitting upon the Marriage Laws, and in that case, the measure proposed by the Right Rev. relate would be unne cessary. The Bill it was his intention to introduce, would not interfere with the forms of Marriage, but make a regulation with respect to places where marriage is to be solemnized. There were places of worship where marriage could not be 60. lemnized, and the object was to give facility and publicity to t~tarriage, by permitting the soleMnization in Chapels of Ease. If the Committee to which the Right Rev. Prelate alluded coo- 1 sidered the subject so as to make his measure unnecessary, k would afford him satisfaction. In case it did not occupy their attention he should bring in the Bill. Lord REnESDA LE presented a Petition from Beaconfield, in Essex, against the Small Debt Bill. Earl DARNLEY presented a Petition from New Bolton against the Insolvent Debtors' Act.—Laid on the table. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY brought in a Bill to make certain marriages good, in which the licenses were ob tained contrary to law. His Grace observed, that the stew Marriage Act passed with so much rapidity as to outrun all precaution which ought to have been given to Surrogates, so that they granted licenses, in some cases, contrary to the provisions of the Oct. Persons contracted marriage ignorant of the irregu larity, and this Bill was to legalize such marriages. On the mo. tion of his Grace the mu was read the first time. Viscount SIDM ovr II presented two Petitions from the Clergy of Norwich, against the Marriage Act.—Read and laid on the table. Lord AUCKLAND presented a Petition from an individual who formerly possessed the power of granting Marriage Li censes,•and who complained that the same had been taken from him by the late Act. A Gentleman . from the Commissioners of the Harbour of New Shoreham presented the usual Report, which was laid on the table.—Adjourn..-1. HOUSE OF COMMONS. .Lord DEERH 1./RST presented a Petition from Worcester against the Insolvent Ait.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. CURTEIS presented a Petition from several Hop- Pianters of Susses against the Hop Duty—Laid on the table. Mr. RICARDO moved for a Return of the quantity of Gold in into •and coined in his Majesty's Mint in the year IBC'S—Ordered. . , Mr. ROBERTSON moved for Return of the quantity of StgAr impbrted by the East India Company since the year I 7 ?o.—Orderea. - • • ORDER OT JESUITS. • Mr.BROWNLOW presented a Petition from Rosh in favour of measures of amelioration towards Ireland. The Petitioners attributed many of the evils which had afflicted Ireland to the establishment of the Order of Jesuits in that country—(tang) te)—whose exer tions were always directed to the preventing of all human improvement, and to keeping the human mind in darkness. Sir HENRY •PARNELL said he had never heard of the establishment of Jesuits in Ireland. If the Ho nourable Member had himself heard of it, he (Sir H. Parnell) hoped he would inform the House of the plan of that .Establishment. Mr. I3ROWNLOW said he had only presented the Petition in discharge of his duty, it being sent to him for that purpose. He certainly had never heard of the existence of the Order of Jesuits in Ireland. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said he was happy the Hon. Member who presented" the Petition had de clared his disbelief of the principal fact stated in the Petition.—The Petition was then laid on the iable.• Mr. BROW NLOW presented a similar Petition from Armagh, which was read, after a few words from Sir T. LETHIIRIDGIt and Mr. CORWIN. On the question that it should lie on the table, Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said, he knew that the al legation of the Petition, as, to the Order of Jesuits, was false.• Though he thought such a falsehood would tender the Petition .almost a disgrace to the records of the House, .he should not•oppose its being laid on the table, so highly did he value the right. of petitioning. On this ground, and this alone, he should riot oppose the reception of the Petition. •- Sir JOHN.NEW PORT .concurred in the eeny,W, manta of the last speaker, and declared it was eslwaye hit-wish to see the right of petition, like all other' rights and privileges, shared equally by all classes of the community. Mr. BROUGHAM perfectly concurredin the sen timent, that although a Petition might contain.state merits which were known to be false, yet the doors of the House ought not, merely on that account, to be dotillioseholders of 'Sou‘Stritt.. „„ I notLotoii:j*aive takation, isca)sl6,ned by l ane paid itlinistry, and an elitearve Att of *Mail peusions.und sinecures. it prayed ,for tile' theleptelinial 13111, for the ;repeal` of 'the Assesiel . l Tales,' and that the House would pass a Bill to re form itself,,that it might truly represent the People. Sir ROBERT WILSON' said, that if a Petitia deserved attention in proportion to the respectability and temper of the Meeting at which it was resolved upon, this would claim the highest attention of . the House. Every branch of the pilblic intertif mtist suffer unless taxation were consideribly ditniriiShO and in order to this being done "effectually, the !lett tioners thought, and he 'thought with them, that 'a Reform of the Pailiament Was netessAry. The de mands of the Petitioners were not made from agf temporary or local excitement, but after due adif ternperate consideration. The Petition was then brought up and read. Mr. C. CALVERT was perfectly aware that the usual course would be that the Petition be ordered talk on the table, and then that no fuaher notice be taken of it. He should, therefore c in discharge of hi* duty, have moved that the subject of the Petition ; be referred to a Committee of the whole House; but that he was aware he should, bydoink so, open the *hole question of Parliamentary rierotm. With this opinion, he conceived it would be'beitei for hint to! leave the subject in better and able's. Minds than his own; and he should wait until a Noble Ltied (Lord J. Russell) should bring forward his promised Mo-' tion on that subject. The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table, and be printed. I DISOLVINT ACT. Mr. HE ATHCOTE presented a.Pitition from the tradesmen and inhabitants of SOiton, praying for a total repeal of the Insolvent Act. , Lord ALTIIORP observed, that mdch complaint had been mare against the priniiple of the Insolvent Act, founded upon certain returns, by which it ap peared that the debtors who had availed themselves of the Act had not paid three farthings in the pound. He found that the s e returns were made under the old Act of 1819; and the evil, therefore, to its full extent was not fairly attributable to the present Act. It was also to be remarked, that a debtor was fre quently under the necessity of inserting in his schedule, some of his debts three or four times over, to meet the possible claims of different individuals, arising out of the same transaction. This, in many cases, swelled the nominal amount of the debts, and affected the dividend which had been calculated upon them. Mr. HEATHCOTE, in explanation, stated that the Petitioners distinctly referred to debts amounting to eleven millions, the dividends upon which had amounted to only 60,0001. The Petition was read and ordered to lie on the table. Lord A. HAMILTON moved for certain Bettina connected with the Elections for Scotch Burghs.—Ordered. POSTMASTERS GENERAL. Lord NORM ANBY wished to ask his Majesty's Ministers what steps had been taken in consequence of the Resolutions of the House last Session, for the abolition of the office of one of the Postmasters-Ge neral ? He understood, that although the salary of the office in question was taken away, no alteration had been made in the construction of the office. If this were the case, it appeared that a Public Officer was allowed by-Ministers to go without that remu neration they considered him entitled to, or that a re fie:ion had been thrown on the vote of that house. Mr, Secretary PEEL said, he could only answer, that in consequence of the Resolution of the House, no salary had been paid for the performance of the duties attached to the office in question. Lord NORM ANBY said, this was precisely what he had alluded to. He thought this arrangement pointed somewhat invidiously at the Resolution which had been come to by the House. BOARD OF ORDNANCE. _ _ _ Mr. HUME said he had no doubt the subject he was about to introduce to the notice of the House would be found to be one deserving of the most se rious attention. He had, in the outset, to observe that the Commission of Military Inquiry, the Reports of which were before the House, had been appointed in consequence of the 45th of George 111. cap. 27, for inquiring into and correcting abuses of the military department of the public service. This being a Board of Inquiry appointed by Parliament, he conceived OM it was entitled to greater attention than any other stiblitirtient Board, not so appointed, should that be Mentioned in the course of the present ditcussion.— The Board was well formed ; it was composed of the late General Oakes, General Drinkwater, Mr. Giles Templeman, and other respectable persons in civil and military offices. It had made several Reports, particularly with - regard to the Ordnance, to which he, for the, present, intended to confine himself. The Board of Ordnance was originally constituted - in the reign of Charles If. and the Cominissioners in ques tion had made seven Reports upon a system of mis management growing out of this appointment. That system had now been put an end to ; but the Report to which he now begged the attention of - the House was the thirteenth. The Commissioners, in the com mencement of their Report, stated as an apology for its delay, that they had been anxious to collect every information, and to make the most minute inquiries touching the subject upon which it treated; so that the House might be satisfied that this Report had been prepared with every possible 'attention, and with a complete knowledge by its authors of all the neces sary facts.- They first stated the formation of the Board of Ordnance, which consisted of a' Master- General, a Lieutenant-General, a Surveyor-General, a Clerk, a Storekeeper, and a Clerk of Deliveries; in all six persons. To these different offices various duties were attached, and Certain salaries were an.; nexed to the performance of them. Of the duties he should speak afterwards ; but, as to the salaries; they had been considered by the Commissioners to have been too much increased. That of Master-General had been increased from 1,5001. to 9,2851. that of Lieutenant-General from 1,100/. to 1,5911. that of Surveyor-General from 8001. to 1,2611. that of. Clerk frOm 6001. to 1;1401. thit of Stiwekeer from 5001. t 051,5201. and that Of Clerk of the Deliveries froin 5001. to 1,0451. The Consinlssioners had proceeded to elan-line several individuals' as to the duties at taehed to these Some, it appeared, were no lonier•Oerfnimed,Und • it %run - Oestion with the Commissioners whether th i ought to be suffered/ he question applied particularly to .the Surveyor and; corekeeper's ofKces ; indeed the latter was costsi- Jere(' altogether as a sinecure—(Hear)..--Titen, a; to the Clerk of the Deliveries, he, by the general Orders, or on: of his sworn clerks, ought to be present at emery delivery ; but, by one of those innovations ax otlier times so much complained of, the duty was now no longer.Rerformed in this Tanner- 7 {ll6dd Whir a view to ascertain what tber — Caartiatit-Weii. ral and Master-General's separate duties were, a )Ived efftililintbn WISIIIITtrmrri-Kw A.- sa----- . result of which vas , that i n the absence of the Nes- -, ter-General the Lieutenant?Cieneral took his place; -% 'and kept ari account of . :the 'warrants. -141 r. Creel :t who had held a high offitiallintatien in the Offiee,..l stated that his duties were not distinct from cheer whith belonged W him In the capacity of a Member ..; of the Board, unless in the absence of the Mainers General, or in the event of a vacancy. Earl lrat' I haM and Lord MOira, vibes hid 'both been Masters General, were exaMine4 To 14ord Chatham tho question . ws put, 0 What is.riur opinion of the via lity of the appointment of Lieutenant-General of t b Ordnance?" The answer to this Anestion was re markable. The NOble Earl begged to postpone an swering, which was accordingly permitted, in.order that he might have time, no doubt, to consult with those interested in the affair, and to manage .his and saver to suit their taste.. When he did make any rt ply, it appeared in a postscript, and was to the fol lowing carious effect:—" I really find it difficalt to understand what could lead to the doubt expressed by your question, of the utility of the appointment , of Lieutenant-Generals, especially when the office appears to have been filled by such high and re' 'sponsible naines"—as`though (continued the Honour able Member) the high and responsible names had anything to do with the matter—(l-/enr, hear)., Next was Lord Moira, to whom the same question was put. His answer was very different. He said,- " I apprehend the office was originally instituted ht contemplation of the Master-General, nho is usually an Officer of high military rank, being sent abroad in the command of an army. to that c ise the Lieu tenant-General would cettatrily . take the manage- ment of the department in his place. Besides this, lam not aware of any duties he can have beyond , those of a Member of the Board." The Commis- ~.: sioners, upon this evidence, report to the House 'td kthe same effect: In the same way the Clerks were useless, as they could only be required in case of the absence of the Master-General; mid in the absence of the Master-General at Walcheren, the whole duty. was done by the Under-Secretary. The Commissioners therefore said—a We think 'that theie Clerks must be unnecessary, and ought to he disc missed, especially as it is not likely the absence of a Master-General would be of long continuance. We are also of opinion that a Lieutenant-General cannot be essential to the constitution of the Board; espe cially if the Master-General have not the duties of the appointments to'attend to." The Commissioner's recommended also that the Ordnance Department should be united under one distinct Commission, in i; the manner of the Treasury and the Admiralty, with .., the title of Commissioners, and the Master-General at the head, and the duties exactly of the same na-- Lure. Lord Moira raid that the Officers of the Ord- , !lance should be fixed, with one in the House ofCotnL ' ' mons, to answer questions and give information.—. The Commissioners allowed thete might be two in' the House, and the others should be fixed. But they had seen four in that House; and even now there were three, contrary to the recommendation of the Commissioners, and three to one over the allowance of Lord Moira. The complaint he had to make was, that scarcely any one recommendation of the Com missioners had been attended to. They had ream* mended the present formation of the Board to be abolished; and the question for the House was, whether they thought it necessary that this Board, if a time of peace, should have five officers for con ducting the affairs of such a small department, when . they considered that four were sufficient to coaduet the affairs of tht Navy. Things must be very mei% changed if the Navy of England was' unworthy of the same degree of consideration as the Ordnance. He might be told that the Barrack and Commissariat Departments had been added to the Ordnance. Bet theßarrack had always belonged to it, and even with; both; the business in amount and importance could 0 -.. be nothing to that of the Navy. If, therefore, the House thought itself right in the decision of last Seta sion relative to the Lords of the Admiralty, it could • not refuse him the motion he was about to submit for the reduction of one from the number of this Boards When it was considered that the nation paid COOSA for the Ordnance Board, and- 4,0001. for the Ad• i iniralty, the disparity would appear in all its mesons inky. After the Speech from the Throne, it was really an insult to the Petition of the People forst , .. trenchmentyto Rap chit oppointment within twenty- ~ four hoer: of the meeting of that House. In the es isting circuinstances of the country, they ought not to spend one single shilling beyond what was elm lately necessary. The Hots* therefore, he treated, would support hint in endeavouring to make a stand against wasteful expenditure, in the intuit* of what he considered to be the most expensive of the Public Departments; Ireland always 'el cepted. The Report said, 'the Secretary ought to have no More than £BOO a year,. whereas Mt. Crew had 18004 a year, according to the resents last year, whilst his house cost.the country 15,0001. building. fie did not blame Mr. Crew for getting all be could, but he blamed those who gave it to him. The Secretary, in point of fact, cost the maims 1900/. a year; for a pension of 4001. was given to Captain Chapman, to retire and make way for Mee one else. It was impossible the appointment add be of much importance, for he was frequently abseil { —.indeed, he was at the present moment at Madrid , Why then pay 15004 a year for performing one 411111 and send the individual on another? The- MAN Secretaey was discharged, but without any saving UP the. Public, for the 3001.' a year he had was. diviikg between his two clerks, who were kept. There** no. Department in tbe State required more lookihi thee than the Ordnance, he was: convinced. In WO the whole Department c05t'18,726/. being in tiMeti war; bin 'in 1821, the sixth year of peace, it sing 68,2781. being an increase of 47,0001, upon. der-twe Offices of theTovrer and Pall-mall only. lbeCeir missioners of Militity - Fsquiry, seeing this gresit-lr crease, suggested two mdst important -Aerial& which kWh:tame-the stney oldie House-to take Whit had never been attended tu. 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