Star. — London, England, 1822-05-16 00:00:00

were thousands in those districts who did not sow more than half an acre of ground, which constit the only support of the peasant, his wife, and six or seven children. Potatoes and water were his only food, for seldom could he taste the luxury of a little milk. And though he was employed during the year, his hire wislittle more than suffiCient to pay she rent of his garden and the grass of a cow, shoul he be'torturiate enough to have one, which seldom happened. To speak of educating his family was out of the qtiestion, however anxious he might be to ail s ' ford'them that benefit. His utmost industry would not leave him, at the close of the year, more than 10s. to clothe his wife and family. What part of the most distressed country in Europe, much less of Eng. land, was in so miserable a condition? He concur red in the opinion of those who said that these evils were in a great measure attributable to the resident gentry and absentee proprietors. They, he believed, could do much to alleviate the sufferings of the un happy peasantry of that country. He was sorry to hear the Attorney-General for Ireland say, that he was not yet decided whether any measure could be brought forward to make the tithe system less op pressive, as it was impossible to expect any permanent tranquillity until that question was settled. Mr. D. BROWN said a few words in support of the prayer of the Petition. After a few further remarks from Mr. CURTEIS, Mr. S. COOPER, Mr. GOULBURN, and Sir JOHN NEW PORT, the Petition was read and ordered to be printed. CIVIL LIST—(THIRD CLASS). Mr. LENNARD said he rose, pursuant to the no . tice which he had given some time ago, to move for , a Select Committee to inquire into the expenses of the Civil List (Third Class). Alter having made some general observations and statements, he should leave the motion with the House. There was now 1 considerable distress in the country; it affected all, classes; and he submitted, with others, that relief could only be obtained by economy and retrench ment. If there were not such economy and retrench-, tent, he knew not how public credit could be main tained. As then it became necessary to effect every possible saving, he knew no branch of their expendi ture where economy might be so advantageously exerted as in curtailing the extravagant expenses of the Civil List If his positions respecting the distress of the country and the extravagant mature of the Ci 'it List expenditure were conceded, he was justified in calling on the House to adopt the most searching economy. Since he first gave notice of his intention ED bring this subject before the House, there had been some reductions in the Civil List expenditure, parti cularly in that class which embraced the - personal expenses of his Majesty, and of ten per cent. on the expenditure of the third class, to which he desired more especially to direct the observation of the House. But the expenditure was susceptible of a greater re duction than that of ten per cent. on the salaries. He admitted that it was requisite to maintain a certain degree of dignity and pomp ; but be thought there might be retrenchment without affecting the becom ing dignity of the Crown and the country, on what some called " the necessary influence of the Throne." As far as the personal expenses of the Sovereign were concerned, it had been said to him that it might ap pear ungracious to require any further reduction, af ter the concession that had been made by his Ma jesty; and he had concurred in that view a such portion of the subject, though he did not admit the force of the remark. For the present he should ab stain from bringing that portion of the Civil List under the consideration of the House; but although he postponed that division of the Civil List expendi ture, he could not avoid expressing the hope that before another Session arrived the Ministers would see the necessity of advising still - further reductions in the department controulling the personal expenses of the Sovereign, particularly as far as the same con cerned pensions, ik.c..ficc. The great distress that af flicted the country must have deeply affected his Ma jesty's heart ; indeed, the Sovereign, had stated that fact in different speeches from the Throne; and as such conviction was impressed on the Royal mind,' he could net but repeat she hope that the necessity , of further reduction would be seen .previously to the' ,next Session. And with respect to that class of Civil. List expenditure to which he should the mole parti cularly direct the attention _of_the House, he _trusted; that to prove the necessity of further reductions, he should•only have to shew the fact of excessiv expen diture. After his Majesty's accession to the Throne, the speech stated that amstem of econom,y and r teenchment would be adopted.; but such sinister co mmunication was soon .followed by the stating to them, that no relief would result to th country from .the .economy and retrenchment .fo which the people had loudly called. They would however, have an opportunity of _teeing bj the vot of that night whether the rule with theßouse was tai be founded on the principle . of the. Royal - speech, ,o 0 .on.the language of Minis.tets.. /lte.existence of :dio: tress had been admitted, and the.necessity of afford-: ing relief acknowledged; and therefore many in the .countly had naturally felt _surprised, that in the ex penses of the Officers of State, Ambassadors, &c. they had not seen .a nearer approach to former expendi ture, as well as to what the nation could hear, than was perceptible in the curtailment ef ten per cent.— Thendvances in the salaries and allowances ,from what they were, in 1792 in particular, were required hy.Mr. Pitt, when he .called for the increase, to be founded on the change in the value of money, on the high price of the articles of life, &c. 'Mr. Pitt did not require the increased allowances with the view of enabling the servants of the Crown to be more pro digal in their expenditure, or to maintain their sta tions with increased splendour; he distinctly - grounded his proposition, and the words were worth remem bering now, on the changes inithe value of money, 'and in the prices of, the requisites of life. The object was, to place them inn situation to meet the increased :xpenses. The like argument was extended to the salaries and allowances of Ambassador!. And now that there had been a favourable alteration in prices, why were not the salaries and allowances to be re duced to what they were when the prices were some what similar? The alteration in the value of money, and in the prices of the articles of life, might not be .felt abroad so sensibly ; but they did affect the means of the people to continue to pay the increased allow ances. The expenditure on the increased scale could not be continued without 'reducing the means oT many' classes of the community still more than they were gent character and consequence of the Sovereign,nor.to i the interests of the _ country ; but that it Wu, n fact t a means by which Ministers obtained venal support. In answer to his argument that the ulttratioos in the , currency and prices warranted sod* reduction, and 'that it would be an acceptable relief to the country the language might be repeated that had been before used, that such relief would be but, as a drop of water in the ocean. The Chancelltieof the Beebe- I quer might again say that such reductions would be of no immediate advantage to the *unary; but even if that were not the case, acquiescence in reductions would have a good moral effect on the country, as it would shew the people that Ministers were sincere in the desire expressed in the speeches from the Throne to effect all possible reductions. It would not be ne cessary for him to go into any extended detail of the Civil List expenditure, nor to advert particularly to the funds to meet the Civil List expenses. The reve nues of the Duchy of Cornwall, that of Lancaster, &c. however, had been kept back, so that they could not see under one head what went to meet the Civil List expenditure. • As to the expenses, those of the Household might be much diminished, except they were still willing to idmit wasteful expenditure; and there might be great deductions in the Pension List. On looking over that List, it was impo.isible- not to say that there were many, names in it that it did not appear to be very regulate to provide for. But in the third class of the' Civil List—that class that was so fertile in expense, there was considerable expendi ture that was not essentiallo maintain our dignity and importance abroad. Where was the necessity of regular Establishments, Setretaries, Etc. at third rate Courts, which were the mere dependents of the Holy Alliance ? And where there used to be Charges des Affaires, now there were Envoys Extraordinary, and . at twenty times the cost of the Charges des Affaires, who answered every purpose that was required by the interests of this country ;—where was the necessity for such change ? In looking over the List, however, it was ituposstble not to have the attention attracted by .a recent and peculiar appointment.--that of the Envoy Extraosdimuy to Switzerland—(Hear, heat).' If be succeeded in obtaining the Committee, he should be able to shew., amongst other things, that, it was not necessary Switzerland should be raised in our estimation in,proportion as it fell in consequence; certainly that it was.not.requisite to have an Arnbas sador there at a twenty times advanced expense.— That appointment, however, was characterised by such peculiar circumstances, that it had been very properly selected.as the object of a specific motion; and if the present motion failed, he doubted not that the other . proposition would.sueceed, supported as it would be by the perspicuity and ability of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Wane). He (Mr. Lennart!) should not further allude to such appointment. He disclaimed the assistance that he should .derive from mentioning it, as the case was so .bad. It was an anomaly .as compared with the other cases . ; and if he could not shew that his motion was warranted, without.requir ing the aid of such a bad case, he should think the Committee ought not to be granted. The objections' to the present expenditure .of the .Civil List, third class, were various. He would advett to the.expense of :that class in 1742, and if there were any differ ent:min the pi ices of the articles .of life, and .in the sank which we held in Europe, that justified an ex bense.greater than :that of 1702, those facts would .shewn. In the grand katal of (expense, as com peted with 1792, there was an increase of 150,0)01. Me had yet to learn.in 'what ourfsituation so differed as to require .Envoys where there had , only been Re sidents. Ile•trusted that the Noble Marquis would not .be-able to ? persuade Abe klouse of the necessity of maintaining in Italy—nude:l . 3lle controul-of Austria as it was-three complete establishments. And why wereasur ; Embassies now mote .numerous, and the .penonsderming them filling higher, and, of conse quently, more•expensive ranks .than .what were ap pointed•in 1a2.? in.thatffear the4x pease for,ltaly .was OW,: it now was if:l*,llo9. The whole -ea ,pense in that•year .of our,Ambassatior.to .the United rtes was OM; icitiow.was 47,01,26. our Mi- MiAtAliS•alblWallge 46400,)1.0‘that.our.Ambassa. dor was receiving 46(10 a year ,more than was al :lowed to the;Prasisientof the Ilnited l States of me .rica—Oosatoties .I,lcar,!)—.There might be some -down( axguntent statement that large sala-' ./ies.,weteinesessary. in ,Europe, to enable nut.Ambas *dots to meet the 4141enslisf of t Alon,archical Courts,; hut3hat-olid•not apply spa simple,B.epublic like that el the Suited rio.a e,unt,lor,pare of the expense of .1:1500041, on•llaeigrand total, as sompamd meth .it might he said .that we had inbassadorsat.plaites and.gourts where none wese haretaforceequislatL-asaMe l s• to :attend the German . Diet, to ,reside .at-tbe)Drazils CRuet, the .other hand, let ; it be 'remembered, that there wirreplatas so•which Aye. no logger:tent Ambassa dors, irs.,for instance, Venice, Roland, ,Genoa, .84c. Therefore .thee was inothingiin tbeicbeoges to mar -rant the ascending .setieS of ostrerstgattee.of which. he complained, and which he maintaineskin consequeace of our: impoverished means, Aught AO be reduced to soxnetbinglikeThsacale of Mit. To justify the pne sent ex penditurt, he.thrtqght theiMiuisters were boond to shew that our means had improved ; that we,had now an excess as competed withlX92; that QUr in terests woulchsuffer without .such , exterasiveexpentet or that the Ministers Wereitet SUtheitiltly paid at that period. And if,it "eerie-admitted that Ambassadota• Ac. were•amply paid.in i , then he thought they would be reduced to_the:dileointaef acknowledging that they were-extravagantly paid now.Jie wished to argue this question temperately ; and he contended that.great.retiencbment -might be.mode in this divi sion of the-expenditure, wi th out injury to any.boqi except to the Envoys at T.urin aual.Switsterland. To, maintain our Ambassadots.at foreign Courts in reek =splendour, be thought would not advance this goon- Irrin the estimation of other States, Ifer.evev i uist would.carry them:accounts of aerdlisteesses, oar dailriactieming. isabilitrtomeirdain "Sipa . 41 expenditure. Yet, notwithstanding these fact= was much concerned by Sir Charles Stuart ; but the 18011 atiPlatet . * *mild not apply in vindication of an allowance similar in amount to our Ambassador ui He should not trespass much farther as lb* indulgence Of the House, but he trusted that he should not be goat with the argument that such extravagant expenditure was necessary to support the dignity and influence ad* Crown. If such argument were urged, be trusted that it would meet with the Constitutional rebuke that the like argument -experienced when adduced in support of the Joint Postmasters--(llear,desr).—An. other argument againsthim might be, that it was* competent to them to open the question as they Bad' made a compact with the Crown on the subject oe the Ciyil List : certainly not without a Message from his Majesty, desiring that House to take into consi deration the question connected with the Civil List. But he trusted that no such" argument would be urged; for E the bargain were not to be broken under any circumstances, then had that House most improperly been called of repeatedly to make good the debts of the Cie' List. Having said thus mach, he should conclude, and be trusted he bad adduced sufficient reason to entitle his motion to support. The rspenseeof the Civil List generally were more than' the country could bear, and he submitted that great reductions might be made in the several classes of expenditure, but more particularly in the Third Class (Hear, hear).—lbis motion was: • That a Select Committee be appoinsed to take into coal deration the expenditure of the third class of the Civil list, and to report their opinion whether any, and what saving of expense might be affected in that class, with a view that such saving might be carried to the account of the Consolidated Fund, ac cording to the provisions of the Act of the 56th of Geo. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that as he meant to meet the proposition of the Honourable Member with a direct negative, he would, as shortly as he could, endeavour to put the House in possession of the view which he took of the question, and of the reasons why he thought the House would concur with him in voting that negative. The Hon. Gen tleman had suffered himself to indulge in remarking upon the whole of the Civil List expenditure, although he had proposed to confine himself to the particular branch of the third class. And he had seemed to take it fur granted, as a thing admitted by that (the Noble Marquis's) side of the House, that there was a general want of economy in the administration of the Civil List expenditure. Now, he should not fol low the Hon. Member in his remarks upon this sub ject, nor should he have referred to them at all, if he had not assumed this point. But the Hon. Gentleman having thought proper to do so, he must claim the liberty of stating his unqualified dissent from the pro position. The Civil Expenditure was, on the con trary, administered with every attention to real and useful economy in all its branches, and for this he should be prepared to contend whenever called upon to do so in a regular manner. The Hon. Gentleman had also alluded to the gracious act of his Majesty in theearly part of the Session, when his Majesty was pleased to make a. donation in relief of the difficulties of the country. But if he supposed that that sacri fice did not place the administration of the Civil List under considerable restrictions, and euforcements of economy, and that it did not reduce the scale of , living . in the Royal Establishments below that splen dour in which the House generally wished to see the Crown placed, he was as much deceived as when he took it for granted that there was an admission on both sides of the House of a want of economy in the general adMinistration of the Civil List. Rut as the motion of the Hon. Gentleman was confined to the third class of the Civil List, he would also confine himself to the matter which came under that head. Yhe Hon. gentleman had taken a distinction between this third class and the other branches of the Civil List, and he was willing to admit that there was a distinction. And he should best economize the time .of the Zane by calling its attention to the situation of the whole of the Civil List expenditure, since the eontraet made with the Crown upon that subject.— Tbe Noble .Marquis then explained the nature of the .contract, and the reason why certain heads of the expenditure had not come within the arrangements. If they , compared a series of years of the last reign with an equal time when the duties to the Crown were paid, he did net mean the regular duties only, but certain,hereditary duties which were claimed of Tight, it would be found that the bargain had sheen. most advantageous to the Public, and that several .millions more had been paid on account of these.. than upon all the debts of the Civil List in the period shrive the contract was formed.• By the new system under-which the expenditure was placed, everything came - before them by Estimates, and thus Parliament exeicised.its controul upon all the beads of expense. The same wasnbserved with regard to the thirdolass. —There were five 'heads of the Foreign Civil List, but three of them only came within the motion of ,the ton. gentleman. The pensions .o f.foreign Mi nisters, the sums paid to Consuls, an d the salaries of foreign. Ministers. It was always kft•to the Crown Ftp.*termini what amount of pensions should be grin according to the importance of missions ; and -what degree.oirank, as well as what number of mis _sions should be appointed—(Hear r , from the °M i• frirs, reignirefrogg the 'other 844). He would a ey were.to*hear the novel doctrine that Parliament .warto be made acquainted with all the foreign po• licy ofthe Government?—(Cheers). If so, they would undertake the whole functions of the Executive, If they expected thet,the Secretary of Statefur Foreign Again was •to•come there to answer any questions •that might be put-to him, he had a very different opi: ;lion upon the ,matter. He thought it neither con rsistent Atith :the .duty nor the oath of a' Secretary of .State tacommonicate anything upon the subject of our foreign policy, without the sanction and orders of ldaj hieoiy(f&P). How then was the Hon. Gen ' tlentoa :. Cou up stairs tU do anything without • Secretary to answer their questions ? And be cer 'w did not -think that his Majesty was likely to - "•ripe,y.of ,State RAW to . the Hiirequtu . L ot that itwpow-Ativei l liari litita dot if tile ligkenisitud ora t *to be nanPneds they had scissions *post this Cattiness Intie * Committee to ua. __ year, they *mild have a Safety is the rent=-I(2eiers). He manner in %Ask% nuc l e oli* Of 1811. a 4gostuo" Siet 4 lftines'Wherthiel \merlca for the eXanspli epo s Atilitartis be otaintaiiied;* must roan; aga h lat any w ab . pi* while this tours, Rertoisiot4 tine; rglerPrimit of mast ' , Pe* that *la ( 114 "ri, _„_afa WOO + culated to prepare the moral -roar and.tne polio cal swotimvits claw P•Pilt (Or some otkr Peopoo; tip, and cheap, which were now Item Out of vie* (041411). Bleattse the country was novistiferin;' Under temPeptary and partial distress,thiy mu st f 8 , 39 6, send eat their miss io ns to alLtbe courts of E a : type iNiprota 'fiver*, awl give * l p #1 that ;mi . : . deratic of we)gbt and Character so intimately co q ; netted with the ancient Monarchy of the tonntrt....... He was quite satisfied that our foreign missions ariix external policy could not go on a day under theta. istence of such I Committee as the Hon. Gentleman would have appointed. He was quite willing that this class of expenditure .should be held to the neces sary economy belonging to the times; he should 4 sorry that the Civil List was not subject to that in. vestigation which was fair to the country. He was satisfied he tepid show that eser7 attention bad been paid to reduction in this department. The Member said, tb i at if they looked into thg expendian e of the class which his motion embraced, they wonl4 find that it had always increased and never reduced. Now, if the flan. 4etitlernan had Raid much .atten. dos to the.aubjeet, he would have found that not to be the cake. He would shew that reductions hal taken place not once, nor twice, but in several in stances; and these reductions, he was convinced. would induce Parliament to continue the confidence which they had hitherto reposed in the Government upon these matters. tae would proceed to examine the three heads of expense which the motion em braced, and shew what reductions bad been made o pun them. These three were the Pensions to Foreign Ministers, Consular Fees, and the Ministers' Salaries and house-rent. The ,pensions had amounted at one time to 56,0001. whereas they were afterwards re duced to 58,1831. The last war was a war sui gene rfs-:-it was Unlike all others in its extent and Lima non. It lasted twenty years, and-many Ministers were necessarily to be employed when it broke out. Though he did not like to have names brought for ward, yet he was not afraid that the list then uron the table should be examined, for he was convinced that it would exculpate the Government from any charge of malversation in the appointments. lie should say nothing of the Consular Fees, as they were at this moment under the consideration of the Board of Trade. The Noble Marquis then referred to a Report of a Committee upon the civil LiA Expendi ture, and shewed that, under most of the heads, there was a considerable saving from the estimates of thzt Committee. There was no reduction upon the Pen sion List, because the pensions were held by Act of Parliament for the lives of the persons: the Govern ment could not, therefore, interfere with them. Upon the other heads great savings were effected. The Extraordinaries were taken - fry the Cominittee at 50,0001. and they had been reduced to 27,U001.- Thus there was a saving of 23,0001. upon the head of Extraordinaries. In every year since estimates had been made out, they had always worked under them-(Near, hear).-But he knew that it might be said, why should there be 27,0001. paid for Extraor dinaries now, when, in 1792, there was only 6,0001/ This bad occurred to him, and he had looked at the subject, in order to see if there were not some other allowances made at that time under a different de scription. He had not been able tcruscertain this, but he found that the great increase of business, and the manner in which the business was performed at that time, would account for the difference. He then proceeded to shew how the £27,000 for Extraordi naries was expended. The *es amounted to L 7,800, and the Post Office charges to £7,800. For couriers £2,200 was paid. There were couriers employed under any extraordinary circumstances, when the re gular messengers were employed in other duties. About Mow was expended at Constantinople for paying the Dragoman and others connected with the interpretations. There was £2,000 allowed for the journies of Ministers, and £5OO for extra journies. This, with .LB,OOO for Chaplains and Secretaries, amounted to about £26,000 out of ,the .4 . 27,009. Upon the Consular . allowances there was also a saving of ElO,OOO from the Estimates of 1815. It was fixed at £40,000, but they were now only paid £30,000• There was a saving upon this whole of £64,000; and it was upon these services that the Hon. Member said they never reduced, but always increased. lie was convinced that the House would require of the Hon. Member a better case before be would induce them to violate the cont Act which had been made with the Crown, by consenting to this motion. With regard to himself, as far as be was personally in volved in the question, he would say, that if he could not be trusted with the management of the funds of his office, without suspicion ot abuse, the sooner ano ther was found to succeett him the better. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman that he was not going to put himself into the leading-strings of a Committee above stairs-(Heer; hear)..-And as he should never have the honour of explaining himself to the Hon. Gentlemen above stairs, neither should he do so there, anylarther than be deemed consistent with his Par liamentary duty. With respect to the number of missions now kept up, the Hon. Member could not complain upon. that ground, for they were scarcely more numerous than in the years 1792 and 1795. At that time there were Ambassadors, that being the first class of foreign Ministers, at Frante, Spain, 1101- land,and Constantinople. In 1812, there were Am bassadors at France (not at Spain), at Constantinople, Russia, and Austria. Had no new features arisen in the history of the times which warranted the alterations? 'Had Russia not so far increased in political import ! ance as to require an Ambassador at the Court of Bt. Petersbursh ? That Court and the Court of Vienna were also entitled tompect and attention from the part they had taken in the affairs of Europe. The situation in which they stood as members of the quin tuple- Alliance-(110r, haw, from Sir J. Mackin toth).the Holt. Member might say if heari" - but .111- .' • w . . • . , ... • • , . 7 ed i e lw tichiga; pony chi . •Ann al a V.l .riere ' , ~,,t ,. . 1, salaries bed • - • - • . ~..... 14 . ) • lievretild say; ths not sow driven to a state oihejgary. . , cal , r '.' others quads •i • .• r,., od d procee di ng was 1 16 . r ilth %Stint 4111 nn . .1611 1111 0. i•nt • s On di ''; • - ,'. • •-.; ' ' : . ‘ ii i, : .. - give up all their esi" td six or therefore thi, estlon . was Oaf a expendi. %lit . • salaries, • . , hiv ,•-A i - 1 •,: 1 - •. If they vrel*.to 1 InnS his only toot ought tti centinued, but country Sas* 114 Messengets•t i e l i i 7 .'...,:!•: , ' ."" ke the Executive this • f a link cenbreontiase to par the d ' , _that would be witliout.dilduction• and ...7_•.• -• . 5...-.. ~,,e . :Co . mittee of Public Safety ring the urged ? But if such usability to pay were not to be from •(=bony. The great al '• 'Fr to • • ~ ..... ~ —1 d not but see, from the s to pay feared; tberl'efat await arguiseterialsesur of re. oder in Pant was defended . yoa —-, V .. laughs fonno v, should 1 duction. Many ae:reed - with him that sorb eztrawi. necessity of giving dhows to English 'tilt ‘• . for u I seldom 1 aunt eePenditure dad uot contribute to ths personal he could not believe that the interest of the country were told to look to Amer . _____—... ,s phi snywwWiwn_ nnr tn was much concerned in the iinrolsei of alai* ghat iiiiiiiiiiiisi establisheseigsvi -... v H , e i 0 as ti r.i ii l 'l l di , w al . .14 i , i ' 0 4, i r . e i ~~. I^ , :