Star. — London, England, 1803-05-21 00:00:00

rii:t A EN TA PRUCEE GS. HOUSF OF LORDS, FRIDAY, MAY 20. Their Lortlfhips heard Cnunfel further upon the Scotch Ap peal cauie ni the Carron Company, v. Ogi lvi:. l.ord Bill for punilbing accomplices by land, conceived is the d krudiun of (hips at ha, wa.. read a third time. and ordered to the Conitnons. Received from :he Comtnnna the Silver Bullion Export Bill, the Seot,:ll iichoo;m4lers Bill, and Come others, which were read the full. time, and urdered for the fecood reading en Mon day mat. The feveral other Bilis were read in their refpedliVe Rages. NEGUTIATION. Lord BORRINGDON role in purfuance of the no tice he had given on a former day, and after a few fliort prefatory obfervations, as .to the neceflity in s Erich the Houfe flood, of being potretfed of the lulled irmation upon the lubjea of the late ne gotiation with France, in order to be fully prepar• ed for the dileuflion on that fubjea, appointed for Monday next, oblei ved, that in addition to the pa. pers already laid before the Houle by his Majesty's Miniilers, there were documents upon other topics to which ;iron dilution was made in his Majelty's Ma:lit - din, not yet laid beicre the Houle, but which his Lordship thought highly neceffary to the full elncidation of the fubjee : more efpecially, on ac count of the (hipping and effeas belonging to any of his Majelfy's fubjeas fei zed and detained by the French, from the figning of the Treaty of Amiens to the Bth March, 1803 ; with the remonttrances refpeaing the fame made by our Court, and the anfwers of the Fiend) Government thereto ; zdly, an account of the reprelentation made on the part of the Britilh Court to the Government of France, with refpcff to the arrell of Captain d'Auvergne, and the anfwers thereto ; and idly, as it had been intimated, that on the part of this country, previ oufly to the final departure of Lord Whitworth from Paris, a Prnjet had been delivered to him on the part of the Brit:ith Government to that of France, claiming the pofreflion of Malta in perpe tuity ; and that a Contrc Projet had been retun ed, fince the departure of Lord Whitworth. He therefore thought, that a copy of the Contre Pro jet was neceffary to the information of the Houfe. His Lordfhip moved accordingly for thefe three revel al documents. Lord Pci-max acceded to the propriety of the Bra of the Noble Lord's motions, and laid there could be no objeaion to laying before the ,Houfe the documents required thereby. With refpee, however, to the communications refpeaing Capt. d'Auvergne, he was not now prepared to fay,whe ther they were of a nature which admitted the propriety of laying them before the Houle. He Ihould, however, advert to the papers, and come prepared to anfsver the Noble Lord's motion on Monday, by then laying they before the Houfe, if it fhould appear proper fo to do ; and with re gard to the third quellion, with refpea to the corn munication of a Contre Projet, he did nos hefitate to admit that fuch a Prnjet was made ; but it was of a fecret and confidential nature, which could mot warrant its difclofure at the prefent moment. It was, befide, not in the fhape of what could be eonfidered an official communication, and of a na ture which made it neceffary for him to caution the Houfe againfl entertaining any opinion that it would be admiffiale on the part of the Britifh Go vernment, or lead to any negotiation. Lord STAN HOP a exprefred his fatisfaftion at the readinefe of the Noble Lord to comply with the motion refpeaing the (hipping and aces of Bri tifb feiaed and detained under the authori• ty of the French Government, refpeeting which no ratisfadion had been obtained. But his Lordfhip thought the documents refpeaing Captain d'Au vergne, if not brought forward before Monday, would then come too late for the information of the Both, as preparatory to the difcuffion for that day. The queftion was then put by the LORD CHAN CELLOR upon the Grit of Lord Borringdou's mo tions, and agreed to. Lord BORRIEGDON then raid, be felt the fairnefs of his Noble Friend (Lord Pelham's) objeaions, and accordingly withdrew, fur the prefent, his other two motions. EARL Firzwit.ztass then role to prop& a (c -ries of motions for other documents neceffary to the preparation of the Houfe for the difctiffion on Monday. The papers demanded were fimilar to thofe moved for by Mr. Grey on Thurfday. To the produetion of many of the papers, Lord Ps t. AM acceded; but to that refpeeing the do cuments received by Government about the arma ments carrying on in the F!. ich and Dutch ports, be decidedly objected, upon the fame round on which it had been oppi.led on Thurfday in the Houle of Commons. Lord CARLISLE agreed with the Noble Lord upon the floor (Lord Fitzwilliam) in the neceffity of producing the documents for which he moved, but not as preparatory to the queftion of Monday, upon which he willed the Houfe would be una nimous, namely, an Addrefs declaratory of the promptitude of that Houle to fupport his Majeily in every meafure neceffary to the maintenance of his CI own and dignity, and to the defence of the jut' tights and interefts of his fubjeas. But there was another queftion, to which he trufled the vi gilant enquiry of the Houfe would at no very re mote day be direeed, namely, the condua of his Majefty's Minitlers in refpea to the whole of the Negotiation ; and to this purpofe, fo neceffary, did lie conceive the documents moved by the No ble Earl, that he had it in his own contemplation to have mm-ed for them at a future day, prepara tory to ton-Lich he all-ided. Ile con chided b, oi.iierving, that if the Country had no ftronger :id- going to war than ti:: notoriety of armaments in the French 7.nd Dutch parts, al !edged this 2.-ty by the Noble y of State, the corrimn-I:caiion fo alai niingly ° oi% en to Parlia ment and the Country, to juitifythe calling out of the Militia, and incredling the public force, was an illegal ad, f ir which the Moti; n of the isliniiter nitzht td have been accompanied by a (.ill of Indeinniiy. Lord Hoe tRT di:clan - 1 his high fatii.lietion at the citnidei.c. - : ceprefli:d by the Noble Lord, that the I icicle wo!ild be unanimous in their refidotions on Monday, to maintain the honour and dignity of his najeily's Crown, and the inter:its and fe• eurity of' the country. That was a ground upon which he fincerely relied ; the Parliament and the People would have hut one mind; but with relpea to the other objet of the Noble Lord's allufion, namely, an enquiry into the conduit of his Majel ty's Ministers, he anxioufly hoped the day would come for that enquiry, for which they molt ar dently wiffied, and from which they would not be found to (brink. The queftion being put on the firft of Lord Fitz wiiliam's motions, the Noble Lord role, and ex• pretfed his confidence that thiscountry had nothing to fear from the menaces of French invation, unlels it was to be effected in a faipernatural way, which feemed to be In ferinully apprehended by a Noble Earl on a former right. Earl STAN HOPE, (to whom this allufinn teemed to apply), rol-.• and obferved, with reference to the lubieet to which he had a few nights fince called thiir Lordfhips'attention,that the danger to which he had adverted WAS not a project of fubmarine navigation, by which the (bores or the fleets of this country would be approached without danger ; for fuch an idea he held to be abford and ridiculous. The project to which he alluded, as in poffeftion of the French Government, was one, upon the fubjet of which he had received authentic commu n,cation from no lefs than Jivers different Channels.— It was a project communicated to the Firft Conful, by an American. Gentleman named Fulton; by fome it was laid to have been extorted from him as the price of raving his life ; but be that as it may, I it was for a confiderable time in the poffeffion of the Firft Conful, and feveral men of fcientific ex• perience had been molt completely convinced with him of its perfect praCticability, far the mifchievous purpofe he had before mentioned, namely, the de -1 flruetion of our kipping, in a way which the Ad -1 miralty could no: prevent.—Three Noble Lords in that Hook, whole names he would not repeat —Noble Lards not in the habit of voting with him upon queftions in that Houfe, confequently not men of his way of thinking, but acknowledged and attached friends of Minifters, bad allured him, that if his Majefty's Minifters would fanftion the en quiry, they would chearfully aid him in it. The motives which aauated his zeal in this affair, were a finccre love for his country, her fecurity, her navy, her commerce, and a zealous defire to pre ferve the lives of his fellow men. He therefore again warned his Majefty's Minitlers of the danger before it was too late to avert it. If they would not enquire; if they would not inveftigate • if they would (hut their eyes againft the truth, he pledg ed himfelf the faits would he laid before the public. He, however, thought it defirable the inveffigation (hould be private, rather than public. Still, how ever, he conceived it a leffer evil that a public en quiry fhould take place,uponafubjea already known to the Fiat Conful, than that it (hould remain in darknefs. Earl Stanhope was proceeding when Lord BORE INGD3N rote to Order, and obferved, the Noble Lord was not at all direaing his argu ments to the queftion before the Houfe. Earl &raw HOP s rote to affore the Noble Lord, he was fully as well acquainted with the order of proceedings in that Houle, as the Noble Lord himfelf. If by any trivial d• - •.:aarture from the quef tion immediately before the Houk, he could have incurred the charge of diforder, he would molt readily apologize. He did not, however, conceive himfelf out of order, nor out of time, on an inti• 'nation of fo much importance as that which he had given to the Houk. Earl SPENCER role to expects his coincidence with the opinion of his Noble Friend (Lord Car lifle), that the Papers on the Table were amply fofficient for the difcuffion of Monday; but that the other Papers moved by the Noble Earl would be requifite to another difcuffion, upon a more diltant, though, he trufled, not a very remote day. The (object of the Negotiation. he laid, refolved itfelf into two diff -ent points, which ought to be confidered and dirculfed diainetly : the one, as with refpea to the cafe of this country in relation to France ; the other,• as with refpe& to the cafe of his Majefly's Minifters, and their con duit towards this country. In the former point, which he considered the proper ground for confi• deration on Monday, the Papers already on the Table were, in his mind, fully fufficient for the Houfe to ground its judgment. Lord Pszicase agreed with the Noble Earl on thefe points, and Paid, that though he fhould have (hong objections to the produaioa of many of the documents moved for by another Noble Earl as preparatory to the dircufilon on Monday, be fhbuld have no oblation to produce them on the occafion of enquiry into the conduit of his hlajelly's Mi-, nifters. At prefent, the produCtion of them was in his mind, unnecelfary. The LORD CHANCELLOR left the woolfack, and obferved, that he knew not of what fluff that man could be made, who, after reading the papers on the table, could doubt that this Country had aloft mired war againft France. With refpea, how ever, to the enquiry fuggefted towards the conduit of his hlejefiy's Ministers, he had no liefitation in declaring his confidence, that the more minutely that condo& was enquired into, the more would their proceedings be found aCtuated by a jug re gard to the honour and dignity of his Majefty's Crown, the jut rights of his fubjeas, and the per mancnt peace and fecurity of the Briti(h Empire. Lord FITZWILLIAM, for the prefent, agreed to withdraw his motions.—Adjourned to Monday. 1401" - 3E. OF COMMONS. The Pi!,:ht Hon. William Pitt took the oaths and his feat. Ihe fi:l t ,r the Dcfcnce t'dr Country was read a firft time, and cointnittt.d to a Stlcet COrimittt r on Monday nest, and the Comini , tee ordered to fit notwithltant".l any ad journ/n.1.: of the Houk. Mr. if. !wows it, after erred:leg a confident hope that the me-fur, whi, h had ►ern adopted for the betcr regul. :ion of the Eie.rti..n at N...ttio;.•ham might be attended with the mott be r .nfequercs., moved that a ru.w writ be ifrorl for the Moyers to terve in Parliament for that town, in the r t. n t f J. Birih, witofe elettion and retain hal been vf Ci.n.l ate it reported from the Committee appointed •ro t-F •%c C.l , r, tit iurt, complair , g of an undue re turn tot the of Lvefbam, that the Sitting Member. ha I ,actu O•rly Pktled, and that the Petition againtt ti2CM WA{ nor Texat!ous. _ 'I he• I-:oac ttc ot trttn a Coeunti!rec of tbe what Haufe, eh , lu.i,mr;•y whrri the chafes were ag‘ol to, and Lb! report ottitreal to In rec..;ved uo Mua.lay. Sir Joey Manta sea moved the reading of the treated Bill from the Lords, for punilbing perfons guilty of burning Gips at lea. &e. The Bin was read a firft time, and ordered tu b• read a fecond time and printed. The Land Tax Redemption Bill was read a firft time, and ordered to be read a fecond time On Monday next. MILITIA. The SECRETARY at WAR rofe, purfuant to a no rice which he had given yefterday of a motion for leave to bring in a Bill for the more fpeedy com pleting of the Militia, and for making several amendments in the Aft' for that purpofe. The principal ()Ned of the intended Bill was to com plete the quotas of the different Counties, and to facilitate the means of calling out the Supplemen tary Militia, fhould his Majefty think fit to have that meafure adopted. Although he had the fa- I tisfaetion to mention that the adoption of the mea- ; lure propofed laft feffion had produced great tired, and that nearly four fifths of the Militia were al-; ready affembled, yet he could not difguife it from' the Houfe that there were Hill many deficiencies to be made up in feveral Counties. There he was lure the Houfe would fee the necenity of filling up without delay: there would codequently be a claufe in the Bill, empowering the Deputy Lieutenants ' of Counties to proceed forthwith to fill up thole vacancies, without any reference to their caufe As the law now flood, vacancies caufed by defer-; tion could not be filled up till three months had elapfed ; but he fliould prr•pofe fo to amend the Bill is to cook luch vacancies to be filled up with. , in the (pace of one month. He fhould alio pro. ' pofe a claufe, empowering the Commandants of . Regiments of Militia to report the vacancies, and the Magiftrates to levy the penalties that might be incurred at every Qzarter Sellions. Several abufes had crept into the enrolment of men for the' Militia, which it was effenrial to corm% and if the meafute propofed appeared to be a Prong one, the Houle, upon refleßion, would fee that it was • not Itronger than the nature of the cafe required. It might alto happen that his Majefty would itriie a proclamation, calling in deferters from the Mi litia, in like manner as deferters from the army are invited to return. Thole who fhould return within a given time would be free from the penal ty they had incurred, while thofe who refuted to return within the time limited, fhould be punifbed as they deferved, and a dercription of their per, Eons publifhed all over the kingdom, while the Magiarates would be enjoined to aid• and alit in cauGng fuch perfons to be arrened. Towards fa cilitating the enrolment of the Supplementary Mi litia, there would alto be a claufe in the Bill limi ter to that introduced during the lan war, for ad mitting men of five feet two inches; and fhould the courfe of boftilities make it neceffary to em body the SupplementaryMilitia,his Majefty fhould be empowered to to do without being under the necelllty of caning Parliament together. He fhould alto propofe that all feamen who may be ferving in the Militia might be turned over to the ; Navy, and that they mould be replaced by fubiti totes, provided at the public expence. Thefe were the general outlines of the Bill, which, when duly examined, he trotted the Houfe would agree to, though the provifions of the Bill might in !erne inftances appear rather flrong. They were not, however, fironger than the nature of the cafe, and of the circurnflances that called for it. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded with moving that leave be given to bring ina Bill for the more fpeedy completing, &c. the enrolment of the Militia. Colonel Porrsa eased the Right Hoe. Gentle man if he did not intend to propofe tome mole for preventing the frauds that were to frequently prae &iced by perfons chofen to feive in the Militia ? The Sacarreav at WAR replied, that it was intended to propofe an oath limiter to that pre fcribed by the Mutiny AEI for recruits for the army. A man, for inftance, fhould be examined on oath with regard to his residence, the number of his family, and whether he was enrolled in any other corps of the Militia. Mr. WINDNAM highly difapproved of the mul tiplication of oaths. He did not think that men's conlciences were tlrengthened, like their bodies, by hard and frequent exercife. Mr. Burro , / wifheit that pertain (erring in the Militia Ihould be made to declare upon oath to what parith they belonged. Sir W. ELFORD faid, it would prevent great in conveniencips and much injunice to declare in the first instance upon what plea they grounded an ex emption from ferving in the Militia. The S&CRETARY at WAR obrerved, that the idea (laded by the Honourable Baronet had not et caped him, and that a claufe would be introduced to that effeet. . The queilion was then put for leave to bring in the Bill, and agreed to. ♦DDITION•L &TAT, TAMS. Lord HAV/lIISIWRY faid, he was commanded by his Majelly to lay feveral other Papers before the Houle. With regard to the point upon which an Hon. Gentleman had required information, viz. the violence which had been offered to the property and veffels of his Majelty'a fuhjefts, he could not inidertake to fay that all the Papers which related tr that point were new prefented to the Houle, becaufe all the Papcts of Lord Whit worth had not yet arrived ; but he was inclined to think that there would be enough to give the lion. Gentleman the information he required. He had likewife prefented the papers relative to the Cape of Good Hope and Loulliana, and Alb a difpatch fent to Lend Whitworth, the objca of which Was to fbew, that though there might be no written remonllrances refpeeting the continuance of the French troops in Holland, yet that his Lordfhip had inflruelions what language lidwas to hold hi his converfations with the French Isliniacr upon the fubjed. Mr. GUT raid, he fhould move that there Pa pers be printed. If % any further papers Humid be neceffary, he had no doubt, from the candour which the Noble Lord had difplayed, that they would be prefented. He walled, however, to fay a few words upon thelall difpatch to Lord Whitworth, w!iicli had been jolt prefented. Thisdifpatch was in. tended to thew that Lord Whitworth ha.4ceeitei lollrutlions to hold certain language refpectog the continuance of the French troops in Holland. He 'thought it important to remark a little upon the Rate rn which the Negotiation Rood on this point. The continuance of the French troops in Holland was Co important a fubjeet, that he thought there muff necefrarily be fame official document refpedt ing it. At all events, fomething further was tie ccifary. There could be no doubt but that Lira Whitworth, in obedience to his inftrudions, made reprefenta ions to the French Government upon; this fubjest, to which he muff have received an fwers ; therefore it certainly was in the power of Minitiers to give further information refpekling it. It appeared alio, that upon many of the inoft portant parts of the Negotiation, verbal communi. cations took place between the Secretary of State and the French Ambairador here ; and certainly it was as material that die Honfe fhould know what paffed here as well as what paired in Paris. The I official communication between Lord Whitworth I and the French Miniiler had been communicated ' by Lord Whitworth, but the communications of the French Anikafrador here, and the Noble Sim• tary's anfwers to hem wre not givn. In ons, dui the Negor t e iation, the Noble Secretar e y of State was certainly liable to greit refponfibility but that relponlihiiity would be much increafed if there was nothing to refer to but his memory-ispon the fubjed. Thefe communications muff, he fop pored, have been putt into the (hape of an official record, and therefore he hoped it wo , .ild be laid before the Honk, becaufe, what a fituation would the two countries be placed in, fuppofe they had the means in France ( which they certainly had not . of difeuffing the meafures •of Government, and that communications were made of the'Rate of the Negotiation to the Legiflative Andy ? If the !acne : delta prevailed there which was Rated to prevail: here, and that what paired at Paris could not be. laid before them, although what parted fierceoul4 the confevence would be, that both. countries would be debating the Negotiation upon totally different grounds. When a Negotiation was carried on in converfation, it midi be obvious that it might receive different colours, accacdiug to the feelings of thole by whine it was reported. He could not, believe, that fuCh important matter; could haie paffed without foam record, which he hoped there %mold be no objeflion to communicate. Lord HAWK ESIWILY laid, he believed that 'the propofition of the Hon. Member was entirely new s at leaß lie did not recoiled any thing fimilar to it - nor did he fee in the cafe which the Hon. Gentle. man had put, any grounds for it. With mrpeit the general points of the negotiation, they were carried on in Paris and not inlannelon ; but it was perfeaiy true, that in the courfe of a negotiation, when the jubilance of it is carried on ia another country, it might be convenient to inform the Ambafrador of that country of the nature of the infiruSions which had been given, in order to COW. vince him, if it could be done. of the jußite of out demands. But with rape& to the general courfe of the negotiation, it was carried on at Paris ; fag if you were to negotiate at two different places, it would create enders confuficm and delay. When he was employed time time ago in negotiating the Preliminaries of Peace here, be took care that the difeuffion Mould be in Inch a Rate that they might have been laid before Parliament if the No. gotiations had failed. Mi. GR64 fail, that when he had laft night moved for fame information refpeaing die conti-d nuance of the French troops in Holland, he wall told by the Nobic Lorchlicre bad been 'no reprej .entation upon the fubjea. A Right Hon. City. tleman «ho rat near the Noble Lord, sterb were no written communicationverpeaing it. Hh underllood from this that the communicationshall been made here ; becaufe . if they had been mulls in Paris, they would have been detailed by Loril Whitworth. Dr. Lev/Itasca raid, he agreed that every cut. lateraland trifling point of a negotiation whim was carried on in another place could not be ex• peeted to be communicated; but the withdrawing of the French troops•from Holland appeared to him onB of the moll important parts of the whole rubjel, although the Noble Lord bad laft night called it an infulated point of the NegotiatiOn. Lord HAWKSIBURT replied, that the Hon.Geo tleotan bad mifunderaood him ; he was fpealcieg of the French Commercial Agents who had been fent over here. Mr. SHILIDAW laid, it was not of much impor tance that papers were prefertted, unlefs Members knew that they Humid have an opportunity of reading them ; and he could not help fuggelting. that as many Members had not had an opportunity of reading the papers, it might be better to pa pone the difcutlinn which was fixed for Monday. He agreed that the Houfe ought to come to a de. citron as expeditioufly as poffible ; but at the fame time, there ought to be an opportunity dreading and confidering there papers. There were fame rumours in circulation, one of which related to Mr. Talbot's having left Paris, refpe&ing which hs wished for fome information, if it could be given. Lord HAWKISBUP v Paid, that with regard to the queftion with which the Hon. Gentleman had concluded his fpeech, he could only fay, that no authentic information had been received of Mr. Talbot's having left Paris, nor did he know that I'ortalis had left London. With regard to the ,rumours to which the Hon. Gentleman alluded. and which he had heard, he took them to be fe -1 ports which were totally deftitute of foundation. 1 1 He lhould be very ready to put off the difcaffion beyond Monday, if any ftrong ground was Rated for it, but he really did not fee that the palera which were now prefented rendered it necelrat7. hecaufe they did not introduce any new faa. They related to Louitinins and the Cape. There were Ws which were generally known, though it might be proper that they fhould be regularly laid before the Houle of Commons. As there papers, there fore, did not communicate any new faa, and were lint very voluminous, he law no realms for putting off the difcaion. Mr. CANNING Paid, be fhoold feel great objeaion to the putting off the difctiffion beyond 'Monday. Any further papers that might be moved for. might be neceifary to enable Parliament to form a judgment how far the Negotiation had been well or ill concluded by Knitters ; but that man mutt be hard to be convinced, indeed, who, after a