Star. — London, England, 1817-05-08 00:00:00

, timed at all in the business, his Lordship sat down urn, amidst the laughter f the House. The petition was then ordered to be printed. VIZ REV. MR. THMILWALL. The Order of the Day for the attendance of the Rev. Thomas Thiriwall having been read, Mr. BENNETT moved, that the Rev. Thomas •Thirlwall be now called in. Mr. BATHURST was •far from objecting to the motion I but before entering on a proceeding which was rathrr new in these times, be thought that it would be proper for the House to consider what son of animadversion — The SPEAKER begged pardon. for interrupting the Right. Hon. Member ; but he thought it would be more in course for the House to hear what the party had to say for himself, and then to consider what sort of punishment the offence might deserve. • Mr. BATHURST said; that before calling in the person, whose conduct was now in question, he would wish to know whether the Honourable Gentleman ogposite (Mr: Bennett), intended to be so tenacious of the privileges of the House, as extended to its Committees, that when any thing wss published which was an infringement of these privileges, the person so offending should be immediately called to the Bar of the House. • Mr. C. W. WYNNE rose to order. He imagined that the decision of the House, by which the atm dance Of the person in question was ordered, bad al ready decided the point to *Web the Right Hui. Gentleman seemed inclined to direct his observations. The SPEAKER—The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bathurst) had certainly a right to address the House on the present question. The House had cer tainly ordered the attendance of the party ; but the question at present before the House was, that the person be now called in. Mr. BATHURST said, that admitting for argu ment sake, that the present case was one which called for the animadversion of the House, he wished to' know how far it was meant to enforce the privileges of the House against the individual in question._ He apprehended that the House certainly was bound to hake any breach of privilege against one of its Com tnittees as much as against the House itself. But the' Committee against which the individual, whose case was now before the House, bad offended, was not the only one which had been libelled out of doors. Of A Thea this he would produp an inst lice in a moth surda. bus and audacious attack op . 'Finance Commits' . [The Right Hun. Gentleman read an eahict from a Newspaper, contain ' n virulent aid:Dili sive attack on the Finance C inittee, which reeti mated it as a Committee, the *O ;pet of which was not the abolition but the preseriation of sinecures.) - He ' w sued the House to consider how far it would go in il:c pretent.case. Because if, 'hi this case, any seve rity was exercised, there were other cases, perhaps, more flagrant, which other Hon. Gentlemen might think it their duty to bring before the House.' Mr. WYNNE said, he was sure be would be the last man in the House who would be wanting in sup port of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bathurst) as to any case where.the authority of the House, or of any of its Committees, was reviled or impeached. Bat thm it was to be considered that each common rest on its olio particular grounds $ and that chino Mild' be nothing more injurious than *hen any of i .case was brought forward, to say that there Mee such and such other libels against other Committent which were equal i ty atrocious, and yet had not been punished. Certuoly he bad often seen in the public .prints-astacks on the privile i ges of the House. which, he regnued, had been passed over by the House.— But here was a case which impeached the authority di a Committee while exercising one of the most im portant functions of the House, Daniell, its ing n ist tonal power.' • The charge made against the thine* was chit of gross partiality. It had been de-, *ermined by the Committee _that this attack upon it .should be noticed to the IlOtiths'and it was in birth pacity of Chairman Of the,Cilstinittee. had not; ital coming forward to espriveL hie individual epatioiss+ that the Hon. Gentlemaii.(ilittennett) brought fore ward the subject. TM diak, thtrefore, was *AL .+ Oie of the Committees of thillifoose called 11430artile' ,Hoase for protection of its posiileges. This canine* ;guilt - and recorded on the Journals of the House.' The libel was acknowledged by its author. His at militia was ordered by the House ; and new, if he was, not called to the bar, the House would virtually! Othitoviledee that the• imputation which he had east 'upon the Committee was will founded. ' Mr. BROUGHAM could sot refrain from saying ' • few words upon a question which involved some 'Tarp:serious consideratims, as respecting the privi lejtes sot only of radioman, bur also of the people. Kitt) comparing the libel now in question with any ether libels, .be thought it was very useless. He walla remind the Right Hoomirable Gentleman iMr: Botherst) that in the late Secession which took lilscir en* tietrikge. about seven row ago, during the fiataill ** that occasion. he (IN. Bioughans) hArl in tie band a pamperer which aaaaliald a liballatla tek Ilaik,not ripen the conduct of the Howe--not xithir!, she *lnduct of say oche Committees, but most soar- Aims animadversions on the parliathentary conduct .of some individual Members in that House, who were 'motioned by name. It was his wish to bring before • 'the House at that time the authors of thee libilt $ but on consulting with oh Hon. Friend. betru per. 'seeded, tbet when the question was upon one libel it was mu in any way to the point to being fogy instatices of other libels. , This moor at that' :seemed to him quite satisfactory, and be thonghi :it 110 still. In the presentees,. it wits so defence of thi Reverend Gentleman to say, that there were ethic . libels agaiiist other Committees, and as 'machinate as his. Bit although this was no defence,„yet in a , portioning the punishment. it'would be a very jeid reason why it should behe a d s ve ry nnxlerehb at•M" respect to the.getterst W i t e ' s er ' of anintadoentialit to thopeoceedings of tit! , he certainly: th e Ebta that. unless-the Baste ofpuing such apish* (Ms was ankh more illosidthen it had hitherto. bit would be tar more dent able for the House to pat 4- self on the higher smote having its conduct epos to public discussion, than al Mad too ( w e b, upon its-privileges. bur, in extending this Ikons.* sound discretion should be °Waved to keep it wit* doe Wends. .. • Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that there scented to be some very conaiderable distinction =de by the Hon. Galileo= ta Ole other side of the House, as to the way in which they would notice offences against privilegt. If these offences • were committed - against a Committee which was under the more immediate protection of the other side of the House, no mercy was to be shown ; but if against any other Committee, it might be abused and cried down, and all its privileges trampled upon without giving much camera to .the Hon. Gentlemen who were now so tenacious on the question of privilege.— If the press was to be allowed to deal is censures against.the House, this licence Amid be permitted fairly and impartially, and ought.not to be abridged in favour of any party. As to the present case, he was glad that such a rigorous exercise of the privi. leges of the douse had not begun upon his side of ' the House. (Heal, hear, hear.) Mr. W. SbfITH thought that nothing could be more fair or reasonable than what bad been just laid down by the Noble Lord. It used formerly to be the practice of Parliament, when the language of any individual in the House was commented upon out of doors, to call the person to account who censured it. But this privilege could not be acted upon now, when the debates were not confined to the walls of the House ; but a portion of the House was set apart for the public. (Cries o f Order ! Order!) He was aware he was quite out of order, but it was the shortest way of expressing what he meant. The SPEAKER said, if the Honourable Gestic man was aware he was out of order, it was to be hoped he would avoid a repetition of the disorderly expression. Mr. W. SMITH went on end described that what • he meant was, that now when the debates of the , House were circulated all over the kingdom, it cnuhl not be eipected that the privileges of the House should be insisted on with much severity, nor was it desirable that they should. Sir S. ROMILLY wished the House to consider out of what the offence in the present case arose. It was against a Committee on Police, and on that branch of Police which related to the licensing of Public-hottses. Surely there could be no sullen more free from party politics. And yet it was said, because the Chairman of that Committee happened to sit upon the Opposition side of the House, that those on that side of the House were desiroos of abridging the Liberty of the Press. He compared the offences of breach of privilege of this House to contempts against Courts of Justice, and said, that what made - the present case particularly Alt,* wale that it was an attempt to prejudice the Houle egitinst one of iti Committees, for copies of the lilelTionor sent aboit,, as he understood, to all the MenibtoOd the Home. Mr. PONSONBY said, it was always painfid to 'him when questions of privilege came to be forced on the attention of the House ; because he thought the Howe never gained - any thing by such discussions. The conduct of the Reverend Gentleman before the Committee bad been insolent, and even disrespectful. It therefore appeared to him to be impossible for the Committee to abs in from making some reference to the House. He did not know whether the Reverend Gentleman hid seen his error, and was inclined to make some apolcigy to the House, but be did not as. how the question could be got rid of without his be ing called op. It therefore appeared that this Geo. Haman must be called on ; but unless he still shewed' a determination so persona in insulting the corn mktg., he, , fot One should be disposed to psis run hie conduct mg lightly. It was not for AM Ith hid written, so much as for his subsettoent coilnet, that he thought it necessary to havehitbrought up; for to prevent the Public from understanding the proceedingkia the House of Commons, would be the greatest Mow' to the liberties of England that they bad aver received. He hoped that when called oa be would express his contrition, and that what bed passed would then be overlooked. Mt. CANNING wished to suggest, for the consi deration of the House, that they were entering upon a new course of proceeding. . The Right Honourable Gentleman had considered this case as if it went to interrupt the course of justice; but this was totally erroneous; there was not a shadeat of foundation for such a suspicion. The cemplant9ires, that he had censured, in a book, the labour" of a 'Committee of last year, which Committee no lboger existed.. Gen tlemen were therefore totally mistaken in supposing it a libel on the present Committie, it being a corna l meet on a Report of last year—(Neer, Asia, hear.) — and founded on the proceedings of that Cominitteo It was a comment on a concluded transudes, whisk was not in pendency at the time the libel was MIRO and published—(Heer, haw, hear.) Here was she Report on the table of the House, and this Report was the substrata on which the comment rested.— Hoer, then, could this publication be said to arrest the course of jetties The pamphlet was only a 10111* idle desultory comment on the general practice of the House—it was not worthy of its attention; and, in his opinion, had much better have been passed over. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, the question was whether an iudividdal Committee had been ate tacked by this Reverend Gentleman? He bad not abaeliad *single Cu"—,nta but be had said be was net abed* to Committees at tbs. flows!' Vora., dabs) he did not wish to be tried by suclOCenunitp tees ; did he Pionsted against being tried by lava.' skims and the Star Chamber. He would say, that this comma 'went in direct tams to impeach the authority of the House to inuire into abuses, and to protest against the pore of the House to appoint Catkasietem act inquire into any subject that concerned 'the porn interest. He should therefrom protest :against this important matter being passed over. • Mr. CANNING explained. The Right Honour able Oentleman had quite =kande:stood him, if he supposed he objected to the Reverend Gentleman Wag called in. Mr. BENNETT declared, that throughout this transectioo no human being.could have had a more scrupulous regard than hisas4 to prevent all possi. bility of introducing any .ell feeling. He had repelled the evidence in otbasieeee because there might lotnot he the smallest grouodlor : any of h al, He must now repel hOtherge s that censor front his side of the Hama any inimical ao the Liberty of the Preis. Goa forbid - that ther conduct of Members individually, and of the House half, should not be a subject for free discussion; for berms 'origin that each discussion was the greatest illeillemeat that could be to well doing 'and one al induct. The Committee had no inclination elimaion wish the Labial, td the Press; but when the charge affected the conduct of public Magistrates it became their duty to tape cote thole& dtseussion should be conducted in an orderly and discreet man ner. The Honolsrable Member then repeated the circumstances be had detailed on a former occasion, respecting a copy of the book having been transmit ted to him, and,his sending for the author, with the conversation be bad with him on the subject. He observed, that he knew nothing of the Reverend Gentleness, or whether be was of one side or the other ;,but he must repel those insinuations that ihe Noble Lord had introduced into the subject, with n temper not according with his usual suavity of Win ner. The Committee had dtbught . proper to haie the author summoned before them, in order to ills.' him an opportunity of explaining away the inn&- does, and he would repeat that Isis manner wit a great deal more offensive than the matter of his pam phlet. The general opinion was therefore manifested, that it was not proper for the House to submit to the I , indignity of his conduct. Lord CASTLEREAGH, in explanation, said, he had read every word of the Report in question, ' and had given it his most attentive consideration t—' but he knew nothing of the author of the pamphlet' , or his opinions ; he did not know that he had ever heard his name mentioned, till it had been coupled with the transaction before the House. Mr. BARCLAY said a few words in reprobation of the Rev. Gentleman's conduct when before the Committee, and paid many compliments to the Ho nourable Chairman- (Mr. Bennett), for his disinte restedness and impartiality. The Serjeant was then ordered to produce Mr. Thirlwall at the Bar, when the SPEAK= addressed him as follows :—.‘Mr. Thirlwall, you have been ordered to attend at the bar of this House, in conse quence of your having avowed yourself the author of a pdtilication reflecting on one of its Committees.— The Clerk will read to you the passages complained of, and then the House will hear what you may be pleased to offer in your defence." The Clerk having read the several passages, The SPEAKER said—. , Mr. Thirlwall, the House will now hear what you have to offer." Mr. THIRLWALL then addressed the House to the following effect :—" I. hope that this Honourable House will do me the justice to believe, that it is with the deepest concern and regret that I find I have trespassed on its rights or privileges by any writings of mina. What I did write, I beg to assose the House, was net calculated readily to reset the public eye in the form in which it *as shapiikarrhe offensive passages occurred in a 'work writtetileeiry greet : taste, and solely intended to vinditate‘ - the charaetei cif the Magistrates aud tiiy own frail the obl9qurcast on both by passage 4 di that paietitthe Report df a Committee of this House, which detailed the evidence of witnesses necessarily examined before that Honourable Committee. If, in my ardent wishes in pursuit of this defensive object, I was unfortu nately carried out of the proper path of respect to this Honourable House, I have to express my regret for so offending. It is now my anxious wish to ex press the regret I sincerely feel for my conduct to wards this' Honourable House, and the Honourable Committee; and, trusting in the clemency of this Honourable House, 6 vesture to bops and petition, that its _ sentence, whatever it may be, will not be spilt as might degrade my character as a Magistrate 'and s Clergyman (Mae, Ater). The SPEAK ER—•" - Mt. Tbirlwall, is there any thing else that you have to Offer!" Mr. TIIIRLWALL" No." • The SPEAKER—" You may withdraw." Lord CAS'I'LEREAGH said; that though there could be no doubt that the writings of the Reverend' Gentleman had amounted to a breach.of privilege, yet be bored the Howe would be satisfied with the ' apology that they bad heard. Mr. WYNNE was of opinion that the Reverend Gentleman bad done every thing that it was in the power of man to do. He bad expressed Ms contrition in terms at once manly and respectful ; and ibis. was all, that could be wished for. lie therefor% !given that the slightest testimony of displease's 7 11br.h.11fe p 4 se zooid ettee towards him would beast. Mc. BENNETT then moved, that the Tbirlwall, for printing and publishing a 1561)16,;fati ded 6.6 Vindication , ' &c. (reading find reflecting therein on the proceedings of thetoMmit me. had been thereby guilty of a high contempt of the House, and a breach of its privileges. * Mr. BROUGHAM wisbed to explain. If this publication had beep brought before the House with out any accompanying statement of the author's con duct before the Committee, be should not have con .sested to the motion for calling him before the House, on the ground that though the passages 'might be offended and improper, he should not deem them, if taken by themselves, worthy of the cognizance of the House, if they bad not been followed by the insolent conduct of the Author before the Committee. Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE bore testimony to the upright condom of the' Rev. Gentleman as a Magill.' trate, and considered he had already made all'the. atonement in his poWer for the offence be had corn. =kW& • • • Sir T. ACLAND elpreesed his entire cohcarrence in the lenient feeling of revery Gentleman in. the Hesse, sad also in the manly and respectfol conduct of the Rev. Gentleman.. Hi must also bear testi ' wetly to the liberal conduct and ability of. the Hon. Chairman of the Committee, whose conduct•through out had been most conciliatory, and who had done nothing more on this occasion than what the dignity of the House rendered necessary. The question was. then et, that the Rev. J. Thirl. wall, by the said poblicanon, had reflected on the, conduct oldie Hoes* itc. which was carried is- the affirmative. : . Mr. BENNETT the observed, that tbe.Reverend ' Gentleman not genii In : custody, be was not aware , btkit 14 poweend wialniret to moving for hintdis - • . . ... • .: (1 • FEARER eili f . that Mr. Tithbtaittsight k ilo , ~ I - • in again, and acquainted *WOO &solo. `PO had jos s been limeesd , tad be4night then bt I that U. cotteegsence vilh*Viebie.en. lle hi impressed,: ,tha Moosa.was taliWilk Wiltetied "' farther.% • "*- -..:* cf.'. ' • . 1 .. • . 141 * "' • • t .• The question' WA* flits put, and the Solemn *di dered to bring bl* isl e *bee , . • ' • The SPEAXER.• thus 'addressed bins :.•fr Mr. Tbirlsrall, *I em 'commanded by this Roust to ac. quaint you, that' it has'- taken into consicleraticin the matter of ciiiiilaint against you, and that the Lit,use has come to two Resolatices :—lst, That ynu } ;tie written and published a work reflecting on the e ,, ft , duct of one of its Committees ; and 2clly, that b y this publication you have been gui lty of • high blea c h of the privileges of the House. Bin tam also cnm. Imanded by them to acquaint you, that in colueqi.,, c . of the ample acknowledgement you have made, House is satisfied, and will proceed no farther. y, may therefore withdral." WELCH JUDGES. • Mf; PONSONBY said, he lock this opporttrii:, to suggest the propriety of patting the Cotnts Justice in Wales precisely on the - same footing a dip,/ in Englind. This was the proper time to bting subject before the House, and ne hoped it wnuld d i . wand their attention before the new appointmeati were filled up; and as no inconvenience coil' oin by not making these appointments' nil Loa Circuit, 'he hoped the Noble Lord would abstain from mak ng them till the subject bad been considc. rt d. - Lorcl CASTLEREAGH intim ated, tUt re: , e any step could be taken, it would be t;ect:,:sary t.i !. vise the Prince Regent on the subject of the menu. niczwAr r.‘ , Bar R I E?. Mr, GOULBURN gave nf7t;ce 'hat he armlet on Monday next, move for leave 1 0 b ; mg di aBI tot the more effectually preventiug high% y robt•cres. t 7 3 11 tote i on the con, y, that by hieh hi eac h n also en cn ,, mode, •:. e rther. npporttni:, Groat s , : f ing a • dip,' 0 btin g ae t w o uld di. ipointmeati soul oin •,y.t Circuit, mak th.3t ;se:: qe EsaTy ri !. he ariol:1:1:. he armlet in a for roirt.erses. ; to a paper ti, b ut eippeir. I:eturr , a tii4.• 4.1 ptxkettd ht rtahy . b e nit oti j ea 4.4 ;red • r om the pals- te pockets of be La: LIT wed b) loreign:rt. Noble Lord, , the '214 of t tcoasion, re. and. Bit it the sputa, o incon:ide. out r f t!: ; .; to the /war- red from its ted the e,:te!.. of the tams t.t tt e. sr of tapirs to prase, to Eat a sar:ng ;ht &e:- n. /le ton- :ouit of t:.e England ea lien Prepfr- For an At- ital Stock is opostiors te- ✓oportiaa to :HEQUER LOAM th.a . names of fo. icy' of Eag. gners to Tea is returns, : a great deal ms names , unnectssarh egative. ition, not he. purpose his e he belies ng from the faired from tpon the sob- d the page tee of the id- House to un- rho had pet- e opinion of advantagn Honourtole to accedeto re wkhed to laid, or ore sent any paw° , the eontru7 , alarm in ue ✓ proceejar; lbjected tc t tia intaftg; tit n to Stagy ' 6)) aliens lE. , that the r C ". one-tent: of e profits prol:;ibly tat th.-7 !Ir d: their capita , by bomr" i• II Do' • ItaintliV O-- l. CHEQ T-7: 5 C^ahling whit:' to give el west ill tl:el to be fer woelJ IQ' moats, - • . 131 erce7.l o 6, tliq sc.r . POO. th' s Ci THE BANK. Mr. GRENFELL said, that accor (d og to a papa usually circulated among the Bank Prvii, ~.e „ b ut never laid by authority before th.it Hans', appeir „ ed that no inconsiderable number of elm— V..). nettled were actually Aliens, or Foreigner , , ~,;e t L a profited by the transactions of tiii• Bank. *4.111(.16:rd the money of the people of England, 11:11+C real!yb e astonished- it the extravagance of its t; , ,verrimtat and the improvidence of its Tar lia wont. '1 "e at, ject of the motion was to ascertain what propprti. , ,i of those enormous profits which the II ink desired 'r its transactions, and which were drawn hom the*. lie purse, went out of the country into the poctels of foreigners. He admitted it would be justitie til, :n . allowing the proceedings of the Bank to be . .Iy wrong, whether the advantages were shared by tish subjects alone, or in conjunction with loreignfr. It was no satisfaction to know that one Noble I.ord, whom he could name, had been enriched, .41 the': of April last, by a bonus to the amount of iebkvou, and another Noble Lord, on the same occasion, re. ceived between sixty and seventy thousand. But it was ofet *onably an aggravation of the sputa, and'att tavation of the evil, when no incon:ide. Table. :lion of those profite went out ( f contllrrktr the purpose of enriching foreigners.— The , Honourable Member here alluded to the nor. moue elsolunments which the Bank derived from its transactions with Government: He trusted the e,:te!. don would form a part of the inquiries of the C , i.:- mittee now sitting to inquire into the finaners t tie country, and- if they did him the honour of callus him before them, he pledged himself to prose, to the satisfaction of every Member of it, thit a sar'sg of no less than £400,000 per annum might Le 'Ras. ed by the adoption of a different system. /le :oc cluded by. moving, first, For an Aecouit of t:.e Number of Proprietors of the Bank of England ca the 31st March, 1817, distinguishing Alien Prepr t. tors from British Subjects; secondly, For an A:. count of the Aggregate Amount of Capital Stock is the Bank of England, sheaving what propottiors to- longed to British Subject, and what proportion t: Aliens, up to the same period. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, be could not conceive any right whin th"t Huse had to call for a return of the names of reign Proprietors of the Bank. The policy of " land always had been to encourage foreigners to their capitals in our funds. Besides the returns, granted, would prove fallacious, because a great of property might be invested in fictitious Considering.the motion as improper and he should certainly give it his decided negative. Mr. PONSONBY supported the motion, not cananbe-distinctly understood for what Honourable Friend made it, but because sores good would result from it, judging benefit which the country had a lready derived thanaartions of his-Honourable Friend upon the jut.' His Honourable Friend had saved the more than £90,000 a-year, in consequence of vestigations which he bad induced that House , dertake, and be knew no individual wbo had formed an equal service to the nation. Sir J. NEWPORT concurred in the opinion 'his Right Honourable Friend, as to the advantagn produced by the former efforts of the Honoursole -Member, and saw no reason for refusing to the present motion. Mr. MANNING said he could have wit,`ial have heard some Parliamentary ground laid, adequate argument urged, for the present which he had not. He did not see any good that could result from it, while, on the. it might do mischief, by creating an alarm 1• minds of foreigners, as to any ulterior procce6', which the House might adopt. He objected tc bpoa the principle that they bad no right to intake; hist, at the same time, be had no objectit n to 04 that the proportion of profits derived 6) Amu' very inconsider.ible. Mr. GRENFELL, in reply, stated, that ther°". portion of Alien Bank Proprietors was one-tent: a the whole number. With respect to the profits" joyed by the Bank, the House was prol - 4bly r. , aware, that, during the last 20 years, th !Ir 4 vided, in addition to 7 per cent. upon tiler capita+ no less a sum than £25,000,000 sterling, by bow' increase.of dividends, and increas..! of capital. rc. profits were exclusively derived from its trantlim . with Government. The Motions were pnl and negatived. NAVY BILLS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQL-L, moveakfor k-ave to bring in a Bill for caahli7g 'fornsury w alter the interest on Navy Bills, w . trez i paean was 4i.per cent., lie proposed to rye:- Troasury.the power of regulating the interest Le , nssin other Bills. The experiment ryas to be fc'r ninths, and he calculated Ns , proposal woclJ considerable saving to'thebOlisitty. in January, ,-` • these Bills were, above '41,000,600 —tITY A' 2,000 0 0 0 in 1814—in -January, !SIGs th.l sttl,9oo.oUo—andi•ibtv they were eit360,0 4 X). Mr. YONSONpt wnuM not .oppose th.! 7 1 , but he wished to know .4 in the progress el t!..a