Star. — London, England, 1810-01-26 00:00:00

61r. ns, ed abtl I bec I‘. y fa Ibex 4i! to th i l :essit he d wrai !ookol of this Led to de 13. t, of dui courg ;icd r but by r « th:: th 3: anJ , to laid sent o pinion • be should . say he came to the T h r o n e to wards the end of an unfortunate war, and soon afterwards blessed the country by concluding a most glorious peace. In the course of so long a period of o e, the country had without doubt experienced /nat ty disasters ; but . it must be allowed, and he be lieved it was so un iversally, that it was one of the ro se mild and benevolent that was ever known. The Honourable Baronet had warmly expatiated on the calamities of the country, and had appealed to va in which wc should now r ims antecedent situations, t hink ourselves happy to be placed. He (Mr. Yorke) should, for one, be glad to see some of the events which had taken place blotted from the history of the world. He should be happy, and it would be happy for the world in general, if that monstrous and hor rible era of the French Revolution had never been ' m own, for to that was to be attributed all the mis fortunes which had since befallen, not only this coun try but all Europe. The Hon. Baronet had, in his (g r . Yorke s) opinion, gone somewhat too far, when to the observations he had thought proper to intro► duce on the administration of an illustrious States ran, now no more, and his subsequent condemna tion of it, he had talked of the people's being com pelled to pay Mr. Pitt's debts, and to erect a monu. vent to his memory. The fact was so much the re .„ J o e , that he believed it was only necessary to state at i,oiment to refute it. Every one must remember that no measure was ever more generally agreed to ; an d if he recollected the eircumsta'nces right, his great political antagonist Mr. Fox, was one of those who concurred in, and sanctioned it by his approval. The H o nourable Baronet always argued with ability, cool ness, and prudence, but he often so highly exagge rated ciwumstances, that he failed of making out ES r eposition. In what he had advanced respecting the refusal to receive the Petition of the Corporation ' of the City of London, he set out by stating, that it' was an insult to the City and Corporation, and that Ministers were highly culpable for having advised it. He could by no means see it in any such light. He had ever spoken, and would always speak, of the City of London in terms of the highest respect: He thought their wealth, their loyalty, and general im portance, were deserving the encomium which the Honourable Baronet had bestowed on them ; and he therefore thought it was impossible his Right Ho uourable Friend near him could ever think of treating them with insult, or any thing approaching towards it. Nothing had been done oa the present, but what bad occcurred on former occasions ; it was a mere question of etiquette claimed by the Livery, but he believed it was disputed, and had never been seriously determined ; and he thought, therefore, that his Ho nourable Friends had acted right, as, in the present state of the King's age and infirmities, it was impos sible for him to receive every petition on the Throne, and he could not see what right the City of London bad to that particular distincuon more than York, Bristol, and other cities in the kingdien. The Hon. Baronet had mentioned one circumstance to which he begged to call the recollection of the House, and which he would wish to be known to every indi vidual in the kingdom, as it spoke so strongly the blessings we derived from our glorious Constitu tion. The Honourable Baronet had said that the King, though surrounded with all his splendour, could not stop up a footpath in his own Park i but that this refusal to receive the Petition of the City of . London on the Throne, was the stoppage of the public high road to petitioning. This was so isatravagant an exaggeration, that it was only necessary to mention the Hon. Baronet's statement, in order to refute it. The Hon. Baronet had stated that this country was in great danger. He agreed with him us to the danger, but not as to his means of extricating us from it; for if they should be adopted, the country, be feared, would be ruined. He did not think the great danger of the country was from a foreign ene my, but that it arose and was engendered much nearer home. He saw it most formidable in the dissentions existing among ourselves, and from a prevalence of opinions uttered in that House, and spread all around to make us hate one another.—(Hear, hear.) The exaggerated manner in which opinions were uttered in that House, gave an opportunity to persons disaffected to the Government to act under their authority, and to turn them to the most mischievous purposes ; and every expression tending to lessen the Government in the opinion of the people was greatly to be deprecated. l‘luch as he regretted the dissentions which had taken place in his Majesty's councils, lie would yet assert, that it was not the fault of his Right Hon. Friend near 14m, that there was not at this moment an Ad ministration which would have taken into its circle many of the Gentlemen on the other side of the House, and given the country the advantage of their talents and support. Not having however been able to effect this, he had, with a courage and a constancy that did him the greatest honour, determined to stand by his Sovereign ; and so well did lie know his integrity and abilities, that he would give him his utmost support, and would not be one of those who would at any tire go into a systematic change in the Administra tion of Government. As to the Hon. baronet's crime of omissions, he should only say very shortly, that he voted for the Address, because he thought it went only to pledge the House generally, and not to bind spy one to support the late measures ; and against Amendment,because it wasobvionsly a prejudging ti Ministers. Though he admitted there was a fai l:te in the ex pedition to the Scheldt, which deserved toe consideration of the House, he would not pledge himself even to go into the subject. He differed widely with those who thought the late expeditions subjects of unparalleled calamity and disgrace— ( H:ar, hear, hear !) He understood the plan origi nally was to have pushed up the Scheldt to Antwerp, and to carry that place by a coup-de-main, which he be lieved had been prevented by unfavourable weather ; andthe only question was, whether they could or could not have got up sooner than they did ? Saar certainly one part of the Expedition had tailed—the other had succeeded. Hon. Gentlemen might talk as lightly as they pleased about the destruction of Flushing, but did they know, that the basin that had been de stroyed was capable of holding 22 sail of the line ? , Was it nothing to have done this ?---(lfear, hear.) — ht was there any disgrace in this ?—(liear, hear.) — These were the exaggerated expressions acid observa tions he had alluded to ; and lie was sorry that any such had been uttered in the House of Commons. — He then adverted to the army in Spain, spoke highly in favour of Lcrd Wellington's splendid military ta lents and extraordinary courage astd activity ; denied )siti , meat; efilatt4 jectic [d onl itferei :crone t on r had er into i man! dent to the Jo. tighout ~rmild which, pleases he peo• rt , t hat which nrer 50 joined Al ty to saYl ;...red cn anal w a • d n a (lac' lamen il th a t teLordiWellington shoulll;;;Weniet lon ger tisentrespau -----. the on attention ix ..... —._ up, as he ( Mr. Y.) thought, as a mark for censure but leave his Amendment to speak for itself. After and attack ; and if that disposition was not disconti- the paragraph in the Address, which relates to the nued by the leading characters of that House, and of supply to - his Majesty, he should propose that a pars the country, it might go far towards our ruin. He graph to the following effect - should be inserted : alluded particularly to General Tarleton's having i “ And in justice to your Majesty's subjeess, who have so long called his conduct rash, and spoken in terms of cen— balm with exemplary patience the burdens of taxation, we will sure on a brother officer, not present to defend him- immediately and diligently apply °melees to the c,nsideradon self. and adoption of such ,economical reforms as may be consistent with the welfare of the State, and may be gratifying to the feel- Sir JOHN SEBRIGHT thought that the Minis- hie of your pmple." try was incompetent, at the same time that he was The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER willing to allow the honesty of Mr. Perceval. Any thought there was no occasion for this addition, as the man who supposed that the expedition to the Scheldt Address already pledged the House to such economy would succeed, must have looked at a very different in the Supplies as was consistent with the public set.. map of Europe from that which presented itself to vice. He could not think it proper that a sentiment him. With respect to the battle of Talavera, glorious containing the sort of suspicion which this did, should as it was called, he would offer a few words. No man be conveyed to the Throne ; and a sentiment also gloried more than he did in military excellence ; but which would only tend to raise expectations in the there were two kinds of military excellence—that public mind, of a decrease of burdens, which were which the soldier exhibited, and that which the gene- not likely to be gratified. The Honourable Gentle ral displayed. The soldier manifested himself in his man had talked of the grinding of taxation, but such strictness of discipline, his patience under fatigue, language seemed to him neither necessary nor politic, and all the privations to which his situation had sub- as conveying the idea that the taxes were of an un jected him ; and these evidences the British soldier just and arbitrary nature. But surely they were im kad displayed. With respect to Lord Wellington, he posed by Parliament as necessary for the public ser did not mean to dispute his talents, but he could not vice ; and to let the people believe that the laws agree in the admiration which was generally expres- which imposed them were unjust and arbitrary, was sed of the laurels he had gathered at Talavera ; in language which he could not approve of. He depre his opinion, they were barren laurels, or rather the cated propagating the idea that much could be saved water of the laurel, which was bitterness itself. He by reforms, as exciting expectations which were not was willing to give the Right Hon. Gentleman every likely to be gratified ; and, in fact, the reduction of credit for his loyalty, but he did not consider him the national expenditure by the proposed plan of re entitled to exclusive claims. He believed that the form could be very trivial. There are offices which word was prostituted, whenever it was applied in such adhering to the very nature of the Government can a sense • that no man had a right to identify himself not be a b o lished, a few onl y , not all then will be re with Majesty ; and that, whenever the attempt was moved, and yet while a single one remains an equal made, it was as injurious to the King, whom it inten- theme of discontent will exist for the people. He ded to support, as to the constitution, which it cer- therefore could see no necessity for altering the Ad tainly violated. He was of no party ; but he thought dress, unless to excite hopes which cannot be grad that the country required a strong administration, fled, and eventually to mislead the public. and that it had it not. The people were taxed to the Mr. PONSONBY could not agree in opinion with last farthing, and had a right to know that it was- the Right Honourable Gentleman. It was true the diciously and honestly applied ; and he considere d it Amendment proposed did not connect the war ex a duty which he owed the country, to concur in the Penditure of the country with the civil establishment, removal of his Majesty's Ministers from office. Some but he could not see that it would excite any expec- , allusions had been made to an illustrious Statesman, tations which ought not to be fulfilled. It was no now no more ; he conceived that it was owing to him wild er extravagant plan, but a salutary reform, that he had now an opportunity of appearing in that cautiously worded, and only promising reform in place, or possessing an acre of land on which to set those things which were perfectly consistent with the his foot. He did not court popularity, but he thought stability o the Constitution ; he fully agreed in the' that the loss of millions, and the destruction of the expression of the Ri g ht Honourable Gentleman, that British forces, which had ' taken place on the sands of it could not be rigkt to excite expectations which Holland, should not pass without inquiry. If these would not be fulfilled ; but he asked why they should the h e not ? He saw no reason that they should not ; and, sentiments were not , sentiments of a wise man, thanked GOD they were those of an honest man ! General TARLETON said that though the Hon. Gentleman had talked of simultaneous operations, the army was not calculated to admit of operations of that description. As to the losses we had sustain. ed, in consequence of the weather, the Ministers ought to have known that such must have been the conse quence, and provided against it. There were many exploits in history with which Talavera could not compare. It might be wrong to condemn an officer in his absence ; but, as he delivered his sentiments in the presence of many of the friends of that officer, he thought he was exempt from such a charge. It was evident from Sir A. Wellesley's dispatches that the army was in want of forage and food ; in such a case was it not injudicious to lead on the army ? He did not upon this or upon the former night attribute dis credit to the British arms, but he did intend to say, with respect to British Generals, that they were un der disgrace, which nothing but a trial could retrieve. He would not trouble the House any further upon the present occasion, as many opportunities would occur, in which he could express his sentiments, per haps with more propriety. Mr. WHITBREAD rose and observed, that he had an amendment to offer to one part of the Address which had been just read to the House. In proposing his amendment, it was not his intention to go into the various topics which had been introduced into the pre ceding debates, nor to anticipate any of the points which would become the subject of the discussion to morrow. The matter which he was then to submit to the notice of the House, he was induced to bring for ward in consequence of what he had said on a former night. On that occasion he bad declared his regret that the Address contained no pledge on the part of the House, either as to the propriety or the necessity of the adoption of any economical reforms. It ap peared to him, in the present situation of the country, when the subject was taxed, though not altogether, yet almost to the full extent which it was possible to bear—when he saw the great profusion of all the de partments of the State, and the prodigal waste of money in the public expenditure—when he saw the Right Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) surrounded by men whom he thought proper to employ, and who were known not to be friends to economical reform ; and, more particularly, without meaning any disrespect to the individual, when he saw an - Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Whar ton) who had been (hairman to the Committee of Ways and Means, and afterwards, as a Member of the Finance Committee, had, by his opposition to the Chairman of that Committee, prevented it from making the progress which it otherwise would have done, in the Session before the last, made a Secretary to the Treasury ; when he contemplated all these cir cumstances, he felt strongly the necessity of that House giving the satisfaction of a distinct pledge to consider and adopt some system of economical reform. That the Gentleman to whom he alluded, would, as he had himself modestly stated on the Raver night, learn to perform his duty, he had no doubt ; yet, whilst that Gentleman was learning, the public service must suffer. But though • the Honourable Gentleman were to be possessed of all the knowledge necessary for the performance of the duties of his office, still, as he did not entertain the same views with himself as to the necessity of economy and re form, he could not look upon him as a pinper person to be appointed to the situation he had been lately appointed to. Upon these considerations, therefore, he thought it necessary for that House to give a dis. tinct pledge to the public, that it would promote plans of economical reform—not alone with a view to actual saving, in which way nothing very material was to be expected immediately, but also for the sa tisfaction of the people, who had cheerfully submitted to the most extensive sacrifices—not only to the pres sure of a severe taxation, but to a s) stem of taxation which operated upcin them in a manner the most op therefore, he concluded, that it was proper, wise, and just, in that House, to pledge itself to adopt a re form ; and with such a conviction impressed upon his mind, be would support the Address. Mr, BATHURST thought the paragragh unne cessary, as matters connected with the public eco nomy were confided to the Finance Committee. His chief object in rising was to notice a statement made by an Honourable Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) respect ing a Noble Relation of his. 'He understood the No ble Baronet to state, that his Relation (Lord Sid mouth) received a Peerage for having commenced the war : but he was misinformed as to the fact, for it was notorious he did not receive the Peerage then, but afterwards, on coming into Administration with Mr. Pitt ; and then he was induced to accept it from circumstances independent of personal gratification. He begged also to state, that his Noble Relation, on retiring from office, declined a title higher than what he afterwards received, and also refused any pecu niary reward or gratification which was then offered to him. Sir F. BURDETT said, in explanation, that he only meant to express his opinion generally, that the honour was ill bestowed, that the Noble Lord had done nothing to deserve it, and that he was still to learn what were his merits. I Lord TEMPLE thought it important that the House should shew a disposition to probe and exa mine into every abuse, for otherwise the people would be apt to think that abuses were greater than they were. He should support the motion. Mr. WHARTON hoped for the indulgence of the House in replying to some allusions which had been made to him. He had not admitted on a former night that he was ignorant of the duties of the office which he had the honour to fill, but, if he was ignorant, he would not come to the Hon. Gentleman for instruc tion. He came into office under great disadvantage, after it had been filled by the Hon. Gentleman who lately left it ; but he flattered himself, that from the knowledge which he had previously acquired of Fi nance, as Chairman of Ways and Means, and a Mem ber of the Finance Committee, and by unremitting industry, the prophecy of the Honourable Gentle man, as to the detriment which the public service would sustain, would fail to be realised. As to re tarding the Report of the Finance Committee, he thought he had done a public service, by procuring papers to be expunged from it, which, had they gone forth, would have had a most detrimental effect to the country. He believed it was the first time it had ever been adduced as evidence against a man's capa city for a seat at the Treasury, that he had once been on a Committee of Finance, and had once been the Chairman of a Committee of Ways and Means. He could only account for it by recollecting that he had always differed from the friends of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and the Hon. Gentleman who sat near him. Mr. Whitbread stated that a Friend had in formed him that the Hon. Gentleman on the last night said he would be able to learn the duties of his office, and it was from this he was led to make any observations on his capacity. Mr. DENIS BROWNE defended the course which Mr. Wharton had pursued in the Finance Committee. Mr. JOHN SMITH contended, that the general sentiment of the country was, that Government had been guilty of a shameful want of economy, more particularly in the military department. " He would vote for the Amendment, because it pledged the House to an inquiry on the subject. Sir A. PIGOT also supported the Amendment, which pledged the House to enforce only such re trenchments as were consistent with the welfare of the country: What confidence could Parliament place in the assurance of Ministers, that the estimates for the present year should be,framed with a strict regard to economy when they opposed an inquiry into the profuse expenditure of the year that was past ? The subject of the c erect Exp editi on, i mplied that such information was intended to he final, leaving, no doubt, a great part of the subject, and wticalarly the expence attendant upon it (on which the proposed amendment directly bore), without elucidation. With respect also to the campaign in Spain and Portugal, Ministers had given no intimation of any intention on their part to communicate the necessary documents relative to the expence of that measure. To endea vour to obtain this desirable object, as well as m t iv others, he should heartily concur in the motion of his Hon. Friend. The gallery was then cleared for a divisions--Tye numbers were, For the Amendment 54 Against it 95 Majority --41 While strangers were excluded, we understood that Mr. TIERNEY proposed an Amendmeat, the nature of which we could not ascertain.—Another division en sued : For Mr. Tierney's Against it 100 Majority The motion for bringing up the report of the Ad dress was then carried without a division. The Re port was agreed to ; and the Address was ordered CO be presented to his Majesty by such of the Members , as were of his Majesty's most honourable Privy ,Couacil. S 2 LORDS GAMBIER AND WELLINGTGN. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice, that on Monday next he would move the thanks of the House to Lord Gambier for the de feat of the French in Basque Roads, and to Lord Wellington for the victory of Talavera. Mr. WHITBREAD asked to which of the two motiodt the Right Hon. Gentleman intended to give priority ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re. plied, that the date of the achievement would certainly induce him first to propose the thanks to Lord Gaut hier. Mr. PONSONBY wished to know whether, if the discussion in the motion for thanks to Lord Gambier should occupy a large portion of the evening, it was the Right Hon. Gentleman's intention immediately to proceed with the motion of thanks to Lord Wel lington ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, while he confessed that he was solicitous that the House should not delay expressing their gratitude to Lord Wellington for his brilliant services, certainly would not press the subject on Monday evening, should the preceding question occupy much of the time of the House. _ _ _ Mr. TIERNEY inquired whether or not there ex isted any objection to the production of certain dis patches from Lord Wellington (which he particu larised) and of a letter from the Spanish Commissary General Donahough to Lord Wellington, which would shew that Government knew that the safety of the British army was endangered at the very mo ment that they conferred a Peerage on its Com mander ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that the Papers alluded to by the Honoura ble Gentleman would be very insufficient for the pur pose he wished to obtain, which could not be effected by such a partial production ; and that there would not be sufficient time to lay before the House the multiplicity of documents necessary on this subject at so short a notice. Mr. TIERNEY expressed bis dissatisfaction at being called upon to vote thanks to Lord Wellington before the House were put in possession of the Papers he had mentioned. FOREIGN TROOPS. Lord TEMPLE, adverting to the circumstance of the reception into British pay of a number of foreign troops that had arrived in this cowitry under the command of the Duke of Brunswick Oels, wished to know if it was the intention of Ministers to advise his Majesty to make any communication to the House on the subject ? — ,LLOR of the EXCHEi The CHANCE. L.OR of replied in the negative ; unless indeed he might re ceive his Majesty's commands to make some com munication relative to the gallant leader of these troops. Such a communication as that alluded to by the Noble Lord was unnecessary ; for it was per fectly consistent with the existing laws that a certain number of foreign troops should be in British pay, and that number had not been exceeded by the ac cession of the troops under the Duke of Brunswick. If, however, it had been exceeded, under the peculiar circumstances in which those brave soldiers arrived, such a step would, in his opinion, have been com pletely justifiable; although in that case he should certainly have thought it his duty to advise a com munication to Parliament on the subject. Lord TEMPLE expressed himself satisfied with this explanation.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF LORDS, JANUARY- 25. Lord Viscount LAC and the Bishop of LONDON took the oaths and their seats. The proceedings in the Consistory Court in Wellesley's Di vorce having been delivered at the bar ; a Bill for dissolving the marriage of the Right Honourable Henry Wellesley with Lady Charlotte Wellesley, his now wife, and enabling him to marry again, was presented by Lord Waisingham.—Read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow fortnight. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said a few words respecting the more effectual ventilation of the House, intimating his intend°. of moving for the appointment of a Committee to consider the best mode of carrying this object into effect. The Earl of AYLESFORD reported his Majesty's most gm. dons Answer to the Address of the House, which vras orderedts be forthwith printed and published. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY moved, that the Lord Bishop of Bristol be desired to preach before the House on day, the 30th inst. in Westminster Abbey.—Orderiid . _ BATTLE OF TALAVERA. Earl GREY, previous to the discussion of to-mor. row, on the intended Vote of Thanks to Lord Wet lington, thought it of considerable importance that some information should be laid before the House, by which they might be the better enabled to form an opinion with respect to the propriety of the motion..— It was necessary they should kno* whether the ad vance of Lord Wellington into Spain, was the e'er. cise of his own discretion, or the result of the instruc. tions of Ministers, and with this view he should move for the instructions sent to Lord Wellington. It was also of importance they should have before them the nature of the information communicated by Lord Wellington respecting the action of Talmera,