Star. — London, England, 1808-02-09 00:00:00

. . respecting interviews which he had with the Empe ror of Russia, and particularly alluded to a meeting with the Emperor in December. The Noble Secre tary assured that Noble Lord, that he was not aware of the correspondence alluded to being in his office, nor had he seen such a paper. He had reason to believe that not only those of the Russians, who were attached to England, but also the Russian nation in general, thought favourably of the expedition. He would ask, what might have been the state of this country, had we not sought our own security by taking possession of the Danish fleet ? On what depended the security of that part of the world which still re mained unsubdued by France, but upon the naval force of Great Britain, which if France were able at length to join to her military force, the rest of the world would he prostrate before her? On the whole, he thought that all who justly appreciated the gigan tic power of France, and the paramount dictates of the law of self preservation, must be convinced that the measure now attacked was necessary to the salva- tion of the country. Lord St. VINCENT thought it necessary to say a few words on the practicability of the French passing over from Holstein to Zealand. In his opinion it was as practicable to invade England from Boulogne, as to invade Zealand by the Great Belt, if it was the same as he had seen it -18 years ago. Having been employed by the late Government in the expedition to the Tagus, he was prepared to say, that there was no resemblance whatever between the conduct that would have been pursued in that case, and what had been followed in the present. Earl GREY said that Ministers, so far from having saved the country by their expedition to Copenha gen, had deeply injured its honour, and consequently endangered its safety. It had been said by the Noble Lord who spoke lately, that it was the main ob ject cf France to combine against us all the navies of Europe ; and that she entertained that design in regard to the fleet of Denmark. He was far from disputing the ambitious designs of France; but, Sir, in order to establish the other point, it was necessary to spew either that Denmark was unable or unwilling to maintain her neutrality. It was the in terest and the duty of this country to lend its aid to, the defence of Zealand, and that, together with the. force of Sweden, would have rendered the defence ef fectual. There was no ground for supposing there fore any inability on the part of Denmark to defend her insular territories. It was of importance then to enquire whether she was disposed to avail herself of those means of defence which she might have had, or tamely to submit to France. On this point he could refer to the dispatches of Mr. Garlicke, the British envoy at the Court of Denmark, a person of the greatest merit, and held in the highest estimation during his residence at Copenhagen. In these dis patches he had represented the Crown Prince and his Ministers as haying a spirit that would reject with dis dain every demand on the part of France to surrender their fleet. When on this subject, he must obsei ve, that' . a dispatch of his own, which he had sent to our envoy at Copenhagen, had been most foully and unfairly quoted in another place. The sentence which fol lowed the quotation then made, would have shewn, had it been produced, that the hypothetical case there stated, was not, in his opinion, likely to happen ; and the convicticn of Ministers, that the Prince of Den mark would resist the demands of France. The Noble Lord then proceeded to consider the proofs which had been alledged of the necessity of the mea sure, and these were principally derived from the supposed magnitude of the danger. The fleet of Denmark had been represented as nearly in a state of complete preparation. But if the information which he had received was correct, most of the Da irsh ships brought to this country would require some months before they could be fully prepared for ser vice. There could then be no immediate danger from them. But it was said, that Ireland was the destined object of attack, and the principal point of danger. With regard to the people of that country, he would say, unite them, and you will produce an uncon querable people. That, however, was not the policy of Ministers ; they conjured up to themselves fancied dangers, and overlooked those that were real. He would ask, was Sweden secured, or was it not rather endangered by the measure ? Menaced as she was by the united powers of France, Russia, and probably of Denmark, he was surprised that Ministers did not now proceed to demand the surrender of her fleet also, which it was now too likely would he added to the power of France. Ministers, ins ead of securing the safety of the countey, had added to the difficul ties of our situation ; for he was convinced that the restitution of the Danish fleet would form one of the conditions of peace that would be roce,t rigidly in- sisted on. Lord MULG RAVE said, that but for the cap ture of the Danish navy, there would by this time have been fitted crt against us in the Baltic a fleet of more than 40 sail of the line. The consequence would have been, the most active naval war in which we had ever been engaged, or, perhaps, a struggle fbr our existence on British territory. Lord DARNLEY supported the motion, and went over the same ground that had been so much occu pied in the course of the debate. Lord SIDMOUTH supported the motion. He contended, that there was no evidence cf it hostile disposition on the part of Denmark ; that France had not the means of compelling the surrender of t'.--e Da nish fleet ; and that if she had possessed such means, she would have been restrained, by prudeutial mo t;ves. from e7;ercising them. It is evidently the wish of the Ruler of France to conciliate Russia, for pur p,-sos which he had in view, and he would not have adopted a conduct which must have .awakened the siespicion of that Power The Noble V incount main tained that Ministers had so often shifted their ground respecting the Copenhagen expedition, that little cre dit could be given to any of their statements. They had represented that measure as one of the greatest urgency, because it was pretended that advices had been received that the Danish fleet was to be em ployed in a descent on this country. lie could slim, however, trom the conduct they pursued, that in fact they did not apprehend an invasion at the time they made this assertion, for it was at that time they car ried into erect the plan of volunteering from the Mi litia into the Line, which they certainly would not have done had they seriously expected that the enemy would make any attempt against the British Islands. He hoped that an Address would be moved, to re quesais Majesty to keep the Danish ships in ie;:urity and prvation, the view of their being re stored a s s soon as cumcirtances should permit. His Lordship having concluded, the House divided, and the motion was negatived.—Contents --present 35 proxies l3-48.—Non.contents—i.resent 68—proxies 37-105 --Majority 57.—Adjourned at half past five. WV. the measure IT tion of the cot Lord St. V few words on over from 11(41 as practicable to invade Zea same as he h: employed by • to the Tagus, no resemblan( would have 19. been followed Earl GRE . saved the cot gen, had deer endangered it Lord who s j'ct cf Fran navies of Et design in re was far from c but, Sir, in of necessary to unwilling to terest and du the defence force of Swec fectual. fore any inat her insular to enquire whet those means tamely to sul refer to the envoy at th• greatest met . during his patches he h: Ministers as damn every ch their fleet. V a dispatch of at Copenhar quoted in a lowed the qt had it been stated, was the convicti( mark woult Noble Lore which had sure, and t supposed rr Denmark h of compiet which he It: n' sh ships ht months befc vice. There them. But object of at With regal- , say, unite querable pe of Minister dangers, an would ask, endangered the united r Denmark, now procet also, which the power the safety c ties of our restitution conditions sisted on. Lord M' ture of the have been more than would hay( we had eve for our • Lord a over the sa pied in the Lord SI contended, disposition not the me Dish fleet ; she would t;ves. from of the Rul p,-ses whit adopted a siespic ion c tained that r:-specting dit could I had reprei ur:.;ency, been rcceil played in however, they did r made this ried into e • litia into have done would ma He hoped quest'his I • HOUSE OF COMMONS. The SFr AIC Ell having taken the Chair at the usual hour, On the motion of Mr. L. FOSTER, writs were ordered for the Boroughs of F.nnis and Tralee, in Ireland, in the room of the Right Hon. James Fitzgerald and Mr. E. CM!, who have accept ed the Escheatorships of Munster and Leinster. An Officer from the Commissioners appointed to inquire re specting the Debte of the late Nabob of Arcot presented their third Report. Ordered to lie on the Table. Lord MILTON presented a Petition from the confined Debtors in the Gaol of Rotheram, Yorkshire, praying relief by an Insolvency Bill. Ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. J. FOSTER presented a Petition from the Trustees of the Catholic College at Maynooth, in Ireland, pr.. ing for a Bill to extend their libarty of purchasing Laßef i erred to a Com mittee. EXPEDITION TO THE DARDANELLLS, &C. Mr. T. GRENVILLE called to the recollection of the House a motion he had made a few days since, for the production of some documents relative to the dispatches of Lord Collingwood to him self, when first Lord of the Admiralty, respecting the Expeditions to the Dardanelles and Alexandria ; and he wished now to know whetter Ministers had decided, whether they would grantall those papers, or whether they meant to spend the intervening days. till Thursday next, in considering what papers they would grant.— The House would recollect that the late Ministry were removed, pending the progress of those expeditions ; and they would also recollect, that all the dispatches front Naval Commanders are adoressed to the First Lord of the Admiralty, who may, if he chooses, lay them before the Board of Commissioners, where they become matters of record. One of the letters he wished for, was front Lord Collingwood, inclo.;ing Sir Thomas Louis's report to him of his arrival at the Dardanelles on the sth of December ; and the others were, two letters addressed to him from Alexandria. lie understood that, as a matter of course, Lord Collingwoud's letter was laid before the Board ; but as he himself had left his situation before the arriviii of those letters, he felt it hi:, duty to call for them to be laid before the House. He hoped he should be allowed to see them ; and then he should be able to judge how far it might be necessary for him to call for others. Mr. CANNING had no objection to the production of the PiTers required. COPENHAGEN DISPATCHES. Mr. WHITBREAD rose, pursuant to the notice given on Friday, to move for copies of some letters from which the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Can ning) had read extracts, during the debate on Thurs day last. In what the Right Hon. Gentleman had said this night, he had further avowed himself disin clined to private communications, although he had not the same objections respecting the dispatches now mentioned, as with respect to those which he himself had required on a former night, and in reference to which the Right Hon. Gentleman requited the for mality of a notice. The Orders of the House, how ever, required no such formality, any Member being competent to move at any time for official documents, which he might think necessary for the information of Parliament. For his own part, he should neither court nor desire private communication. His object was to obtain fall information for the House, where the garbling of that information had been highly offensive to the feelings of a Noble Friend of his in another House. He had now to complain that the Rigbt Hon. Gentleman had practised suppression, in the vindication of his own conduct in the Copenhagen affair, to a length wholly unprecedented in Parlia mentary usage, and had also resorted to materials for that vinckcation, which, he believed, no man in any public situation would have done, but himself; he alluded to the teading of extracts from the public dispatches of his predecessors in office, in a manner so garbled as just to answer his own momentary pur pose, and to make the meaning of those dispatches appear precisely the reverse of what the writer in tended, and which the very next paper, betbre or after, if read at the same time, would have obviously shewn. He recollected that, in the last war, a Noble Lord, now in the other House (Lord Grenville) did, in vindication of his public conduct on a similar occa sion, read certain extracts from documents in his hand, which he afterwards refused to produce. The conduct of the Noble Lord was then strongly repro bated ; and he was charged with that which he now charged upon the Right Honeurable Gentleman, • namely, that he read them in such a way as to change totally the meaning of the writer. This, however, ' was a proceeding to which he believed Mr. Pitt would have scorned to resort ; nor did he ever recollect an instance of the kind in the whole of that statesman's public conduct. A Noble Viscount, not now in the House, had, he believed, done something in a simi lar way ; but it had been carried by the Right Hon. Gentleman to a length before unparalleled ; not only having the effect of mistating and perverting the in tention of his predecessors, but amounting to an abuse of that public confidence, of which he was the depository, pregnant with serious mischiefs to the country. He was bound, by the most sacred obli gation, not to make use of the public dispatches of his predecessors, for the purposes cf mere recri mination, and more especially not to give those dispatches a meaning in the eyes of Europe totally different from their real import and intent ; the more so, because other nations would not suspect that these documents could be so grossly misconstrued by a person filling so high a station. He had the authority of the Noble Person who had written these dispatches, for saying that his feelings were extremely hurt on the occasion ; that he felt he was entitled to that com plete vindication of his conduct which the production of the letters themselves would afford. H id the Noble Person been present at the debate of Wednesday, he was confident those extracts would not have been read; or if they had, they would have been as flatly contra dicted es the papers just moved for by his Right Hon. Friend would contradict what had been said respect ing the Dardanelles. But, however easily the cha racters and conduct of Lord Grey and Lord Hutchin son might be vindicated by their power of contra dicting on the spot the insinuations of the Right Ho nourable Gentleman, the same opportunity was not afforded to Mr. Garlike, whose credit and character at the Court where he was resident must be injured in the tenderest points, and charged with thegrossest du plicity and misrepresentation. For notwithstanding he tells the Court of Denmark, that he will commu nicate to his Court the declared determination of the Crown Prince to defend his neutrality at all events against France, and even against England, and that if - he is beaten from his Get-man dominions, he will retreat to his islands, yet the British Minister for Fo reign affairs pleads the dispatches cf Mr. Garhk and reads from them extracts to justify has conduct in the attack of Copenhagen. If, then, the Crown Prince attaches any credit to the Minister for Foreign Af! Garlike practice of Mr. of recrimination which h ad of late p revailed on both Whitbread hat next mus t p r o he proceeded thinked to a deprecate Mr C h sides of the House , and w h ich had no other effect than to divert the House from the sub j ects in discussion. Better were it to appoint at once a fair and full inves tigation of measures which appeared to be reprehen sible in the conduct of Ministers or their predecessors, than mix those subjects irrevalently with otherdebates, He was ready to admit the occasional impolicy and danger of laying the whole of the dispatches before the House, and lie would allow that his Noble Friends ought not to demand the production of documents, even for the vindication of their own conduct, if they conceived there was any thing improper in the dis closure. But in the present case no inconvenience whatever could arise. He concluded, by moving for a copy of the dispatches of Lord Howick to Mr. Garlike, dated the 3d of December, 1806, and the answer of Mr. Garlike thereto. Mr. CANNING spoke in answer to Mr. Whit bread. Upon the subject of private communications, he had received a pretty good lesson from the Ho nourable Member and his friends ; for after having in his speech given the fullest information in his power on the subject of Copenhagen, and offered by pri- Iva te communication to give any farther satisfaction required, he met with nothing but reproof and rebuff. IHe expressed regret that the Noble Lord alluded to should have his feelings hurt, while he, far from cen suring his conduct, fully approved of it, and, in fact, conceived the measures adopted by himself and his colleagues, were merely following up the plan so ably chalked out for them by their predecessors. As to i the papers required, he must draw a distinction. One Ipart he could produce ; but the production of the I other part would be imprudent. With respect to the extracts lie had read, he deemed them essential to the proof of a particular point, and had not read them with the purposes imputed to him, of mis-statement or perversion. His Majesty's late Ministers directed a communication to he made to the Danish Coart, I that his Majesty would consider as hostile any com promise with France for the surrender of her navy. It was in the same spirit, and in the contemplation of such a compromise, that his Majesty's present Mini sters had acted ; and hence he could not conceive how the feelings of the Noble Lord could be offended. If the Noble Lord had not copies of his own dispatches while in office, he was cer:ainly entitled to them, not merely as matters of courtesy, but of right, and should be furnished with such copies if he desired them. Lord TEMPLE reprehended the conduct of the Right Hon. Secretary, in reading garbled extracts ; from the dispatches of his predecesssors, on the same grounds with Mr. Whitbread. Mr. HE RBE RT rose to express his conviction of the impropriety of refusing to Parliament, at any time, papers relating to important affairs of state, when there was no danger to be apprehended from their production. He considered Ministers as now brought to the bar of public opinion, their character was at stake, the °nu: probandi lay on them impera tively and exclusively. They had endeavoured to prove the necessity they were under of acting as they had done ; but this plea, like that of an alibi in law, was either the best or the worst. If in any essential part it failed, it involved the person who resorted to it in the suspicion of subornation or deceit. The Ministers had failed in substantiating their case by documents ; it was not then fair to expect from the House a profound reverence to the opinion of Mini sters, and a i subservient acquiescence in the acknow ledgment of a proposition, as yet destitute of any ar gument to support it, but that drawn from the expe diency of confiding in those at the head of affairs. The SECRETARY at WAR spoke shortly in vindication of the seizure of the Danish fleet. He said, the case did not rest so much in the willingness or unwillingness of Denmark to snrrender the fleet to France, as in the determination and power of France to seize it, if the opportunity of preventing it had been deferred by this country. Mr. TIERNEY said, the papers ought in justice to be laid before the House, as passages read from them could not be a criterion of the whole, and there fore could not justify the c onduct of Ministers in the attack on Copenhagen. It was a dangerous precedent for a Minister to read an extract, and then to refuse to communicate the whole, as it might lead the pub lic to suppose the Noble Lord (Howick) had enter tained an idea that the Danes were hostile to this country. It was said, that if these papers were pro duced, they would prove an injury to the public ser vice. The Hon. Gentleman contended that their disclosure could do no injury. The Noble Lord was particularly anxious that the letter should be made public, as it would be seen Ministers could not, from the slightest idea contained in it, ground their pre- tensions in commencing hostilities against Denmark. If Ministers brought forward these letters, he si-ouldl take upon himself to move a vote of censure on their conduct. Mr. LOCKHART thought it the duty of Mini. sters not to sit down quietly in hourly expectation of the death and interment of the British dominions, by permitting Denmark to co-operate with all her powers with France against this country. Mr. HORNER hoped, since the Right Hon. Se cretary had admitted the letter alluded to as evidence in his defence, he would produce it complete, to prove he had not made an improper use of it. He was con- I cerned to observe the dignified charaeter alluded to so unjustly calumniated by the Ministry, but most ofi all concerned to find our late faithful allies contemp tuously sneered at, and their sufferings unfeelingly disregarded. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, since he had.heard Gentlemen call for a Parlia mentary ground for refusing the information dc- mantled, he would suggest, that the strongest Par liamentary ground for refusal, had ever been weak- .1 ness in the claim itself preferred to the House, It ti noodcn ti w ould mtv b ei atnehdt without been u x e t. oau m nlod e v l beyre urgentandinjudiciousextremelyo necessity.ve ra again give such informa- i n No improper s ta s te u td c o l , such that k d te exist, psuu3h, lic, for the most obvious reasons. He avowed, that no such inference as had been stated to have been drawn by his Right Honourable Friend, from Lord Howick's letters, had ever been attempted to be made by him, or could possibly be made by any one from those letters. His Right Hon. Friend had only made use of them to shew that the possibility of 'Den mark's yielding up Zealand and her fleet to France, in consequence of the capture of Holstein /so wer, was not without foundation. Th e in the official note, that if Zealand became the power of France, his Britannic Majesty never be induced to acquiesce in the - amounted to the whole of what his Friend had advanced on a former night, nit* apprehension entertained. Such concessio ns .' ever, he thought, be attended with inconv and only lead to others equally idle. Mr. WINDHAM professed himself fir th? ' tergiversations and changings of this ' nistry. They had thrice, he observed, ground of defence already. If at length be reduced to any palpable form, he was join issue with them, and proceed to trial dence they had submitted to the House. Th em sufficient to condemn them in the eyes of men. The Ministers had for a long time their defence the collusion of Denmark wit of France ; this they had now totally the Right Honourable Chancellor of the had most unintelligibly attempted to reconi sertions of his Right Honourable 'friend 01 occasion, with the admission he found r o make this evening. How candid and fai have been to say, " here are the deceived you andilie country, w.: are axi, reparation, by giving you all the informal power." He was allXlolli this conductshottli for the exculpation of the foul charges of brought against his Noble Friend, by thi tion of garbled statements and extracts, documents. If report was not a great liar, Honourable Gentleman had already crept • by means of a similar artifice last year; In fore a proper object of general suspicion, now be anxious to maintain, by a consistei duct, his ill-gotten treasures. Sir JOHN ORDE supported the argumi Right Hon. Secretary. Mr. LYTTLETON thought it his dot from the Ministry on the production of t though he had, on a former evening, h e ported them. A conviction cf the propriety solving a most respectable character, lateh house, from any imputation of deceit or it formed the grounds of his oppostion to occasion. Mr. SHERIDAN said, he had oh, great ploasure, that the challenge given' exultation and triumph, had produced a effect on several Members of the House. thod of silencing, by challenging the Hote position of internal strength, instead of guments in confirmation of a propositioi hoped, by the reception it might this with, chastise the arrogance of present. statesmen. Were it left to him to condui tack on the authors of the late unprincii against the laws of nations, he would me tinct censures on their conduct ; the first', and unprincipled denial of the necessary the second for their criminal conduct, as pear even on the evidence they had affc House. The conversion of his Honoi did him honour; had the House been ed, he believed the Honourable Gent not have been singular in deserting of candour, honour, and principle. of similar outrage on national justice found in the British annals. In si demand should be made to Parliament to act on confidence. In the late war Ministers came prepared to give satisf. of her hostile intentions, before ever the , j supplies. What had been urged by the Right Honourable Gentlent on this and former nights, was n( libel on the good faith of the tried Britain. That France wished to disnak from our alliance, he granted ; but der.; to compel her to acquiesce ; and nougl. force could distract that country from The insinuation against the veracity au of his Noble Friend, he treated with col Noble Lord was above the reach of tin Mr. Garlike, he understood, felt severe) the misrepresentation of his corresponder timents were quite distant from hostility or apprehension cf hostility on their j criminal in the Right Hon. Gentleman man, whose character had endearei' Danes, and whose character had even from confinement when taken prison, chery and hypocrisy. This Gentles ar on a future day, been the successful this country with Denmark. The con ters had been altogether inconsistent, and unworthy of confidence; he hoped House would compel them to give required. Mr. SHARPE deprccated the cor dui and pledged himself to support the V' if no one else would. Mr. WHITBREAD was ashamed inconsistencies of the Ministers in t They were worse than inconsistencies (shameful to say) impositions fabri , one time he thought they wished to caj to give them their approbation—at wished to brave and frighten the " the country into acquiescence. HI while his Right Hon. friend brought a against them, he hoped he would brio! the House, when he would add a third, inefficiency of their attempts on Copenha) paltry result of their breach of good I:tws of justice and morality. Mr. LYTTLETON, and Secretary rose to explain. Mr. MONTAGUE rose ; but echoed with the cry of 44 questii coughing; so that we were only able spoke against the motion, The House then divided, when there For the production of the Papers, 157.—Majority against their being gran NOTICE. Mr. SHARPE said, he would soon ' tunity of submitting to the House a • on the late conduct of his Majesty's Mi LONDON : Printed and published by LEVE tcrbury Place, Lambeth) at the STARMFET street. P 41611.411.0 -.t the STAR.OFf tlsa me lajesty jteysert;w: Righ a .ai r c ro olw g en .e ieltA, • sessions t 5.01,.• n t , to* if tired o f h PrOteu s 1, shifted the, gth they 0 , 4 :s PRI was willin g v . csiE .1174 rial m of all h one . time urge s with theriß .4nucleconcile the t, E _ : *dli:lr : Vitai9 yes birti r s a ‘ d ...16st ierf .es ' ce 1 31 ,cest.ary keininum,' the intro;, Anilims to eat • C T :I b o;i: , consiv tuy AD .-acts, as p u bo o r; I Lt liar, the Rio evil crept into pl act /1 10 1 ; he wa s tt et , L on, as he mit •"" asistency of cer, *( • arguments oft of IA • „ and is duty to disze ` crou 'r nof the pa... ;„or tO 1 ig, he said, sup d propriety of ..'. • • lately in thr, ' cic or inconsistency, • .or to them on di' I Eal Si ci observed viii *ti r ven with so mud 7),, AT r ed ( !d a proportionate, t louse. Thistle. . • ; and House on as 4 aa lof producing;. mta isition, would, i t '7 this evening meet • , resent and futun 4 86 conduct the at. . 14 .,! -incipled outrage. P 44 Id move two dis ,;r47 le first for the fen ,taco :cessary evidence; 7 111 :t, as would ap Du* afforded to the in lonourable Fried H. B. )een fully attend. • Gentleman would ""''' ting the enemies e. An instance . t . tice could not be W n such cases ti W, lent or the natiai tw e war with Spit • • els satisfactory prod or they demanded ed ir, extenuatia ntleman (vire, .!Isne as nought but. ied Ally of Gan distract Deranah : denied her power - ought but superior from our il - .terest ity and consistency I It contempt. '11;° ,I.s°selorn..te:lNild..a.criettendriYilpeletcltaoiyoeirri.ctiitim.nnhijaelluairDrlegititcsoeand:wastittbebe: 14:11"....m. even liberated arisoner, withues eiian might haw, ;ful Negociator fa e. conduct of Minis. :cut, disingenuous , oped therefore, the 'Lye the information or duct of Ministcri, se Vote .f Cosa, de med of the glzing in their defence. encies they were At h ito e fa a c br rt ajo l ic l i a n e joani ti°n tl th le et s. rn ius e :i t the n allid id He added, that, ;i. g ood h penhbod t kriir a ndfg d :ai o ngtt u lhael b m,: l m e aealn c ybei ha i [g e th,ththoreee retary CANNING, ,ut the Hoase aestion," and loud able to discover he . n there appeared-- rs, Ayes 7S—ho ts ig granted Sh . • soon take an °ppm . sea vote of aping y's Ministers. .EVEI, KENT, of ess . -OFFICE, Dar _ Noe I, FE/CZ, TClOple43ar• •