Star. — London, England, 1810-01-30 00:00:00

i .. P4RmAmiNTARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, JAN, 20. Tenth and Eleventh Colonel DRINKWATER presented the Reports of the Military Inquiry: LORD GAMBIER. The Earl of LIVERPOOL rose, and adverting to the Order of the Day for a motion of Thanks to Lord Gambier, said, that ke was sorry to say that his Noble Friend whe intended to bring forward that motion was so much indisposed that he was quite unable to attend in his place that day. He should therefore beg cav e to def.!r the motion till Wednesday, when it was probable hi sNoble Friend might be able to attend. Lord GRENVILLE thought it would be more adviseable not to fix a day until it had been ascertained when the Noble Lord _ inrqi, rn; ht be able to attend. STAM PS ON BANK CHECKS. mittee of this House on Fridity next, the 2d of Fe- The motion, in the interim, was fixed for Thursday. Mr. GILES gave notice of a motion for Thursday next, for bruary, to give his evidence respecting the Expedi- TIIE WALL:fER EX EXPEDITION. leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Act of the 48th of the King, tion to the Scheldt.—Moved and ordered accordingly. The Earl of LIVERPOOL laid upon the Table respecting the drawing of bankers' checks upon stamps, at a cer- PRIVILFA3E. several of the documents which had been adverted to tain distance from London. BULLION. Mr. MANNING called the attention of the House in his Majesty's Speech, and observed, that he ex- Mr. HORNER gave notice of a motion for Thursday, respec- to a subject, which, he conceived, involved its privi- pected the remainder would be ready in an hour or ting the state of Bullion in this country. leges. He alluded to a custom prevalent of late in two. He hoped they would be printed and ready for ORDER OF THE DAY. the newspapers, of publishing lists of the Members of delivery on Wednesday, when a day might beal"' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER that House, who voted on any particular night, upon pointcd for taking them into consideration. moved the order of the day for resolving into a Com- I any important question, at the same time designating The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose. He said, mittee of Supply. The House resolved accordingly. I particular Members by marks and description, as re he had given notice a few days ago of his intention to , That part of the Lords Commissioners's Speech presenting counties, cities, or populous boroughs, submit a motion to their Lordships on Thursday on the opening of the Session, which was particularly and pointing out the motives that were supposed to next, relative to the matter contained in these papers. addressed to the House of Commons having been influence their votes. It was a practice extremely lle had also promised to take an opportunity, in the read : disagreeable to many Members of that House, thus mean time, of giving a more specific notice of the I Lord MAHON rose, not, he said, for the purpose to be held u p to their constituents, and false motives tendency of his promised motion. Since that time, o f opposing the Supply, but to state his reasons for imputed for any vote they might think fit to give however, it appeared from the votes of the House of thinking that the taxes of whish the supplies were upon any question. He held in his hand a morning Commons, that it had been determined by that House usually composed, were not, as they should be, fairly paper of Friday, the 26th, in which such a list was of Parliament that the causes and consequences of and equally collected upon the whole population of published; and he must say, that so far as concerned the unfortunate and disastrous expedition to the the island. The burden was become extremely himself, the publication was a misrepresentation of Scheldt should be submitted to the examination of a ' heavy, and ought to be equitably divided upon every his conduct. He did not mean to make any formal Committee of the whole House. The motion which class of subjects in just proportion to their ability ; complaint to the House on the present occasion ; but he had intended to make was also one for referring but in looking over the official returns of the finances rather wished to warn the editors of newspapers for that melancholy matter to a Committee of the whole of of the country, there was a contrast between the se- the future from similar acts. Many other Gentle tha t House. But it had since been suggested tohim,that 1 veral quotas paid by Scotland, compared with those men, friends of his, felt with him upon this subject ; the issue of the proceedings in the other House might' paid by England, which must strike every man at and he could only say, if the course complained of possibly be to bring the authors of that unfortunate first view, who cast an eye over the papers. For in- was persisted in, he must take up the matter on ano measure before their Lordships in their judicial capa- ; stance, the annual amount of the war taxes on one ' ther occasion in a more serious way. He begged to city. In consequence, therefore, of this suggestion, ! class collected in England was twenty millions ; that be understood, that it was not to the publication of be should for the present suspend his intended mo. in Scotland on the same class, but one million. The the list that he objected, but to the particular marks, tion, reserving to himself, however, the power, in i property tax in England was eleven millions ;—in and the designations annexed to Members names. case such an event did not take place, to renew his Scotland it produced but £600,000. In short, upon I Mr. CREEVEY thought, that so far was it from notice of a motion for bringing that most unprosperous the total of war taxes, where England paid 59 mil. being a breach of privilege to publish the names of undertaking before their Lordships in their delibera- ; lions annually, the amount paid by Scotland was but Members who voted on either side on any impor tive capacity. He should now give notice that on four millions. It appeared to him that so marked a tant question, that in King William's time, (not the Monday he should move an Address to his Majesty,; difference must arise from default in the collection ; most unfavourable period to freedom and Parliamen. praying for the production of information respecting ; an d h e f e l t i t hi s duty to state the circumstance for tary Privilege in this country ), the thing was con other points and operations of the campaign. 1 the notice of the House, and particularly of his Ma.' stantly done by order of the House; and he thought GENERAL ORDERS RESPECTING THE BATTLE OF jesty's Chancellor of the Exchequer, in order that such a practice highly necessary to the people of Eng. TALAVERA. measures might be adopted to correct the evil. , land, who would thereby be enabled to see who those Earl GREY referring to what had been said by The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ' Representatives were who did their duty, and who the Earl of Liverpool on Friday night, respecting the said, he was not aware of any defaults in the collec- 1 , did not. impression made by the receipt of intelligence of the '' tion of the Revenues in Scotland, and could only ac. I Mr. HENRY LASCELLES coincided in the battle of Talavera, and the General Orders issued ! count for the difference stated by the Noble Lord, ; representation made by the Honourable Member upon that occasion, wished to be informed, who the and which had not escaped his observation, by sup. I who spoke last but one. He did not object to the military advisers of his Majesty were ? T he Noble , posing it arose from the superior opulence of this publishing of lists of names, but to the misrepresen- Earl made use of that term, in stating by whose ad- , country. If the Noble Lord was aware of any other '• tation of Gentlemen's motives in a sweeping and ge vice those General Orders were issued. 1 cause for the difference to which he had alluded, he I neral way. For instance in one of those papers, un- The Earl of LIVERPOOL mid, that the term • (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should be happy I der the head of Gentlemen who voted against inquiry, military advisers, applied to the Commander in Chief 1 to adopt any suggestion that would tend to remove I his own name was inserted ; whereas he had distinctly and his Staff, but he did not mean to state, that it 1 the evil. There had been a very particular applica- I stated i n h is s p eech on that ni g ht, that althou g h he was solely by their advice that the Gen eral Orders i tion made to him, for the purpose of obtaining a re. I voted against the specific motion then in debate, that referred to, were issued ; but , on the contrary, he 4 -• duetion of the property tax on lands in Scotland.— I no man in that House was more anxious for inquiry stated, that his Majesty's Ministers were responsible IHe made that inquiry, and although it did not ap. I than himself ; and yet this part of his speech was for that measure, it having been adopted with their I pear in the result, that a reduction was practicable, I never given, as counteractive to the general state concurrence. neither did any thing appear to spew the principle of I ment in the list, that he voted against inquiry. Lord GREY thought the statement of the Noble csllection was defective. If he was aware of any I Mr. WILBERFORCE had no objection to the Earl not sufficiently satisfactory, as it did not explain neglect, he should certainly be glad to correct it ; but ! practice of publishing the nam es of Members who I by whose advice the General Orders were issued. he rather anprehended the Noble Lord's conclusion . voted on either side upon every great question ; and If those orders were merely the ac t of his Ma j est y 's I was founded on mistake. .he wished it might continue so long as those lists Ministers, then the impression, which the Nob le Earl 1 Mr. HORNER thought the House entitled to have were corr ect, as then the countr y would see which talked of, was merely that which the y themselves the fullest documents on the subject laid before it, in of their representatives attended to their duty. But had created. i ; order to discover how so extraordinary a mistake of ! he had to complain, that although he had, in the two The Earl of LIVERPOOL contended that it was the Noble Lord, if a mistake it was, had arisen. The I last great questions, attended, as on such occasions he not a proper question to ask, at whose suggestion any ! very same idea had occurred to himself in looking I always had done, yet his name was totally omitted measure was adopted? He had already stated, that I 1 over the accounts ; and particularly with respect to I from the lists in both instances—a circumstance that his Majesty's Ministers were responsible for the the property tax. I m i ght indu ce his c o nstituents to think he had ne g lect- Orders alluded to. His M a j est y' s . Military Advisers I SNPPLY. fed his duty. Another point of which he had to com would not, of course, direct the adopti on of an y mea- - i plain, was, that on one of those occasions, either not sure without the permission of his Majesty's Govern- having expressed his own meaning, or not being un ment, nor would the latter adopt any military mea- derstood by others, what he had said had been misre sure without the concurrence of the former. presented. He afterwards got up in his place, and Earl GREY observed, that he must then be satis- distinctly disavowed the meaning attributed to him : fled with understanding that his Majesty's Military but no notice of this disavowal was taken in the paper Advisers and his Majesty's Ministers had both agreed which had mistated him. Indeed, he must say, that in issuing the General Orders.—The conversation while gentlemen on each side of the House had care here dropped. taken of their speeches, he supposed on account- of AMERICA. his being no party man, he had no one to take care ---, if there was any objection ~.. ,„ "wanting relative to the Ne- '- - • of him—(4 laugh).—He wished, however, that had been tom, ..._ whenever he was noticed, he, at least, should not be • his Noble Friend swer to that Speech, it was 1,,,,.. . misrepresented. ‘tinisters to subject. He decidedly protested against p...-__. Mr. PONSONBY said there was a circumstance -tine, this country, burthened and borne down as the people attending the discussion which he was extremely glad ire with taxes, to carry on a war in a quarter, and to observe, namely, the sensibility which Gentlemen •!ale which, while it must be ruinous to our shewed towards the opinions of their constituents...-. - utterly hopeless as to any ulterior ob- (Hear, hear, hear.) He agreed with the Hon. Menlo she miseries already brought up- ber who spoke last, that wilful misrepresentations of 1 -a v our to defend Portugal any thing which passed in that House, was not to be -- - , food, now abandon- suffered ; but if a mistake occurred through misun. --severed in, he derstanding, no great mistake could arise where Gen. , 1 ition of I tlemen had the opportunity next day of correcting -NI I those mistakes, and setting themselves right. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not know what reason the Honourable Gentle man had so particularly to compliment the House on being thus anxious to stand well with the Public. He did not know that they were then more than usually so, or that they had done any thing that seemed to bespeak them inattentive to the duty they owed their constituents. With respect to the subject before the House, he thought if brought forward at all, that it ought to have been not merely noticed, but complain led of. Did the Honourable Gentleman think it no inconvenience to be misrepresented, because every .Member might come down and correct those misre presentations that affected him ? Was that the dig nified line of conduct he would prescribe to the House? Ought any misrepresentations to be made merely be cause they could be corrected ? When a Member ' made such a correction, the correction rested with the same persons who had been guilty of the misre presentation. They could give it just as they pleas ed, or omit it entirely.. It had been said, printed lists of their names was not a breach of the privileges of that House, because the printing of the names had sometimes been ordered by the Members of it. Did the Hon. Gentleman mean to assimilate the printing of the names by their own order, with that care and accuracy with which they were then printed, with the publishers of Newspapers giving to the Public an er roneous list ? If a circumstance of that nature were The House now resolved into a Committee of Sup ply, Mr. WisaturoN in the chair. On the motion being put by the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER that a Supply be granted to his Majesty, Sir JOHN NEWPORT rose and said, he-con ceived the present a fit opportunity to offer a few ob servations to the House on the subject of Supply.— In the speech of the Lords Commissioners, a strong intimation was given, that it was still intended to carry on the war in Spain and Portugal. The House had been told, that in voting for the Address in an swer to that Speech, it was not pledged upon this subject. He decidedly protested against pledging this country, burthened and borne down as the people were with taxes, to carry on a war in a quarter, and upon a scale which, while it must be ruinous to our resources, was utterly hopeless as to any ulterior ob ject : and if after all the miseries already brought up on the country, by the endeavour to defend Portugal ( Spain having been, as he understood, now abandon ed), the same course was still to be persevered in, he could see no other result than the accumulation of dangers that must be fatal to this nation. He warned the House against suffering itself to be drawn by little gradations into the support of such a purpose. They had already the authority of a great Military Officer, the lamented Sir John Moore, that Portugal was not defensible ; and if that was the case, under the cir cumstance under which he formed his judgment, l how much more hopeless must such a prospect be I now, while the armies of France, disengaged from all other objects, and in possession of Spain, could at any time march such a force into Portugal, as must overwhelm any army this Country could send thither ! He protested, therefore, against_exposing any longer our brave troops to the risk of being out-numbered, subdued, and perhaps cut off before they should be I I able to escape by re-embarkation in their own ships. He warned his Majesty's Ministers against continuing this hopeless contest, in compliance to the whim or fancy of the Noble Person whose alliance they had lately obtained, and whose brother filled a kind of Vice-royalty in Portugal. He pledged himself to oppose such a purpose on every occasion, and he could not even let this opportunity pass without registering his decided opinion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the present motion was only for granting to his Majesty a supply, of which he was to have the dis posal ; but certainly the Vute of this night did not pledge the House to any specific purpose, Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, his object for Earl GREY wished to know if there was any objection to pro duce the documents which were still wanting relative to the Ne gociation of Mr. Erskine ? The Ev.rl of LIVERPOOL, in the absence of his Noble Friend (the Marquis Wellesley), expressed the readiness of Ministers to give every information relative to the Negotiation of Mr. Erskine, Which should be deemed satisfactory, although he could not pledge !Muself as to particular capers; but if the Noble Earl would trate the papers he wished for, he would have an answer whether Ministers could consent to produce them. Eat! GREY said he would adopt that course. The papers that were more particularly wanted were, the enclosures in the dis pa:ei of the 2oth of April. His Lordship gave notice of a motion fur Thursday for the papers wanted. REVERSIONS. Earl GROSVF.NOR said, he had in a former Session given notice of his intention to call the attention of the House to the st.liject of,Offices granted in Reversion; but the question having beta taker up in the House of Commons, he would defer his actrvations till another opportunity. Afijourned till to-morrow (this day), when their Lordships go hi procession to I.Vestminster Abbey. • HOUSE OF COMMONS, JANUARY 99. oicl JOHN THYNNE reported, at the bar, his Majesty's pest gracious Answer to t he Address lately voted by this House; i wich wa> ordered to be entered on the Journals. A nuniber of petitions, praying bills for inclosures and other local pu oses , were presented and referr ed to Committees. Colon I WARDLE moved to revive an order made last Ses sion, an not fulfilled , for a return of the Expence of the Royal I Military Staff, for a certain per iod endin g the .sth of January, 1809 ; • :i d other papers connect ed therewith.—Ordered Mr. .'ARNE!.I , desired to ask the Right H o n ourable Chan- cellor o the Excheq uer, if it was his intention further to contiaue, in this ession, the prohibition o f the distiller y from corn. Ih e LIANCELLOR of the EXC HE Q UER answered in the , I 1 affirm: , ive. Mr. PARNELL then asked, if it was the Right Honourable Gentl,!man's intention to extend that prohibition to Ireland ? The Answer to this was in the affirmative. 11.• CHANCEL! OR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice, that b.t should on Wednesday move for leave to bring in a Bill Jur pt omoting the accuracy of proceedings in prize causes. CIZINIINAL PRISONERS. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLN; moved in the usual form for a Re tort of all the prisoners ct niinedon criminal charges in all the gaols of tf.v United Kingdom during the years 1805, 1806, 1807, and . Igoe ; the nature of their respective crimes, the numbers son % :cced, and those uron Qeht,m the sentence of death or transpor talon had been actually extcuted.—Ordered. S:r SAMUEL. RONIIL then gave notice of a motion on rosy next , 01l the subjcct L Capital punishments. STAMP DertES. . Mr. WHITBREAD said, that observing eretary for the Trutt - 90y now in his whether or not some regulations in for the future certain impositions , .: 1 -.ale _ put in train Mr. WHARTON anavreted in the ailipnative. AMERICAsj Mr. WHITBREAD referred his i ron respecting America, sine die ; not however abandoning t postponing it, because be was unable to fix a specific day for Its discussion, as there were so many important questions already before the House. SINECURE PLACES. Mr. FULLER gave notice that he should, on this day fort night, move for leave to bring in a Bill to abolish all Sinecure Places under the Crown, after the demise of the present possessors. —..evelavoticed at all, he thought it the mote digniiiel v ov to bring it forward by way of complaint. and mike& to' bet.' Mr. PONSONBY, in explanation, said, he liatl been misunderstood. He did not say that no incoa, A WIMPS INQUIRY. I v'enience arose from such misrepresentation,:--on the - QTER said, that - he had said, that it' such were wilf. as, in the ap- contrary, 'riday next, it Was of impor- made, they ought to be severely punished. r militay o*er that the evil quite He ihtd . not _ proaching inquiry upon P_ tance to obtain the evidence - a , of said was so great 1s s n rae high rank, who was engaged in the Walcheren Er- Gentlemen seemed to think, as it could be remethe.,l; pedition, the Marquis of Huntly, who was a Mem- but that was not saying it occasionednoiincog ber of the other House of Parliament ; it was neces - ence at all. sary to move that a message be sent to their Lord - The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained. ships, requesting their permission for George, Baron 1 , Mr. WHITBREAD was sorry h: Gordon, ( M Inis of Buntly) to attend the the it Com. Gentleman apnearecl so sore when his Hon. F r i eil d feels the H--- had spoken of the present _ .ling in the touse. He had sometimes noticed that towards the close of the sixth Session of a Parliament, the Members ail / seam" more commonly awake to the interests of the people, He saw a something of that sort of feeling then in the House. He had observed more on the second night of the Session than on the first, and still more on 6e third. He was unwilling to complain of the conduct of some Newspaper Editors, or he might, as his speech had been entirely left out to make room fol the Right Hon. Gentleman's opposite. The Mem , hers for York might have cause to complain, but he • dared to say, that if he was niisrepresented in other Newspaper, he found a good report of what he h a d ! said in another. Though some were had, yet, upon ' the whole, the people wcra enabled by them to font a tolerably just estimate of the character of a plhlic man. Of all others, he thought this the most cent breach of their privileges. The Owing an as _ terick against a man's name to mark another as th e Representative of a Borough, when erroneous, not so great as to justify bringing the printer to th.l Bar. He had been in Parliament 20 years, and n eva once remembered a case where he was not disposca to let the printer escape, and this was the last case ill which he would inflict punishment. He agreed with the Members for York in thinking their names ought to be published, that no ambiguity might attach to their conduct, Mr. BANKS made a few observations, after which Mr. MANNING briefly replied, objecting more to the marks and comments which accompanied the names, than to the printing of them alone. The SPEAKER observed, that though no question was before the House, the debate must have a limit, and he hoped they had then arrived at it. INFRINGEMENT OF FRIVILFar. Mr. W. WYNNE said, that in consequence of the notice of a Noble Lord for a motion for the Minutes of Admiral Gambier's Trial, lie thought it his duty to look over those minutes.' He was very much sur prised while reading them at a letter which there met his eye. Every Member in that House be thought had a right to vote as he conceived his duty celled upon him to do, without being previously exposed to be interrogated as to the vote lie meant to give, or subsequently as to the reasons which induced him su to give it. Lord Mulgrave, in his letter to Lon' Cochrane, had violated this privilege, as his letter in formed the Noble Lord that understanding he intend ed opposing the motion for thanks to Lord Gambier, for the victory in Basque Roads, he was commanded to ask why he intended to oppose them, to the end that Ministers might be enabled to judge of die grounds on which his opposition was founded ? lie wondered how the writer of the letter went Sc car to infringe the rights of that House. He was aware th it it might be said, why did he not bring forward this subject on the Noble Lord's motion being made?— His reason for not doing so was, he thought, a ques tion of privilege ought not to be coupled with anv other. He concluded by moving for " A copy Of the letter, from the Lords Commissioners of the Ad-. miralty for the Trial of Lord Gambier, dated 15th of April, 1809, together with one dated M:iy 29th; addressed to Lord Cochrane, and referred to in the former." The CHANCELLORof theEXCHEQUER had no objeCtion to the production of the letters. Nothing, however, in his opinion, could be more proper thanto call upon the Noble Lord to state the grounds onwhich he intended opposing the proposed motion, as it was necessary that they should know what cause for com plaint he had against that Officer, that, if necessar), they might institute a Court Martial to inquire into his conduct.—Granted. MINUTES OF COURT-MARTIAL ON LORD GAMBIER. Lord COCHRANE rose to make the mot;en r)f which he had given notice. He said, that as it was intended this evening to bring forward a motion to confer on Lord Gambier so distinguished avork of honour as that of the Thanks of the House of Com mons, he thought it his duty to bring forward Ins present motion, that he might be enabled, from the Minutes of the Court Martial, to skew the House that such a mark of distinction had not been melited the Noble Lord. By those minutes he would be able. to shew, that after he had made the signal early in the morning for a division of ships from the fleet tin• der the command of Lord Gambier, a delay of four hours took place before the Admiral uninooretl , and afterwards a subsequent delay cif four hours mole took place ; the reason given for both of %vac, that it was to enable the Admiral to make an attar . whereas, had that attack been made when he host threw out the signal, the greatest part, if not the whole, of the enemy's squadron might have bo,:s destroyed, instead of the few that were demolishl and taken. He called on Ministers to show :cy thing to entitle Lord Gambier to the Thanks of House. If he was allowed to have the minutes:, I he pledged himself, by every thing dear to the chi racter of a man of honour and an Officer, to sliew . that the conduct of the Court was not like that of a Court of Justice ; that they sheaved the grossest par tiality ; that a great part of the evidence was hai, and that the directions given by the Judge Advocate were unfair. That Lord Gambier had been nom!• nally tried for his life, was true ; but under what dr cumstanres ? There was no prosecutor r eady t but o bring forward any charge against his Lord shi p ; M.• Bicknell, the Solicitor to the Adtniralty , had been substituted in that place ; and Lord Gambier Ir , !d. been tried, in order by ,his acquittal to screen Mnnl.s' ters for having appointed a man to comma merl through Parliamentary interest. Had a force two ships of the line have been sent in, he wouldkiv e l • destroyed five more ships than were destroyed. n called upon the House, in the name of the couetrY! and in defence of their own character, to be cautious how they suffered themselves to lavish the big!! nig most honourable reward that could be bes.www . • ttEs. *eirdPalronly to protest ohsbrving SD Her /rll aftba s tliSuse was pie* his place, he rose to Mt NM The Resolution w the Stamp Offie4to prey** ribpoirtel to-morrow. practised there, had yet been WALCS/$lll the affirmative. Lord PORCHESTEI