Star. — London, England, 1822-07-02 00:00:00

• • s lk • •%•\: 4 ; • Nib '141 %. 4. 11. • • •••/ • now same to the next irtat head of' national expea elitttret. awn*, the.r.hatekincurred by the reduction of the Debt, the items of which were: Sinking Fund on Exchequer Dills - - Provision for paying the holders of i per Cents. in England - - - - Ditto Ireland - " - - Deficiency of Ways and Means since 321 4290,000 039,000 N,°.. ga0,456 Total A 51,456 He would now explain how that deficiency had come to stand over since last year. It would be recollected, that is proposing the Estimates fur last year, he had stated, that certain expenses would be incurred fcp• the Out-pensioners of Greenwich Hospital. Hither&. the whole expenses of that Establishment had beeii• borne by funds belonging to the Hospital itself, arising out of a stock created by the prize-money got during the war. During the last year, low/crier, such a diminution had taken place in the fund, that the King in Council had decided that no mort payments should be made. out of it, and that the whole expense Of Greenwich Hospital should, in louse, be defrayed by the Public. As the question was not then settled, and the opinion of the Crown Lawyers had not been taken upon the proposed arrangement, he had only sahl,that the funds would be insufficient, and that it was pNbahle sin application would be made to Par liamerit, in order to get the necessary provision, by an issue of Exchequer Bills. Abo ut 260,0001. of the whole amount had been so raised, and the remainder, which constituted the deficiency s ince last year, had incurred expenses of an ordinary nature, which were sanctioned by different Acts of Parliament, and the particulars of which would be found in the papers before the House. Adding, then, the amount of these three items, which m ade 3,381,000/. to the ex pense of the Army , Na v y , and Ordnance, which amounted to 17,815,000 1 . the total to be provided for would be '21,196,456/. He had now come to the Ways and Means by which these supplies were to be made good. Some of them had been already sanc tioned-by Parliament, and these he should distinguish from the others which he should have to apply to the Ilouse for. The first item among these was the An nual Taxes, which were voted this year at 3,000,0001. being less Ly 1,000,0001. than the same vote of last year, in consequence of the remission of the Malt Tax. The next item was the Tea Duties, amounting to 1,500,0001. Then came the Lottery, amounting to 200,000/.—(Cheersfrom the Opposition benches). — Gentlemen might cheer ; but if they would do away with the Lottery, he hoped it would be only by the substitution of some other Tax. The next item was the Naval Old Stores, which made 151,0001. There was in the latter item, this year, a diminution of 12,4001. as compared with last year, and that was occasioned by our having receded farther from a period of war. There was last year an item of 500,0001. arising from the French indemnity. There was no such item in the accounts of this year; and the reason was, not because the payment had not been made, but because of the unfavourable state of the exchanges, the accounts had not been wound up, and were not in a state to have them laid before the House. He hoped, however, early the next Session, to shew in what manner this sum had been appfo priated to the service of the pre'ent year. The next item was the sum repaid by the Commissioners for issuing Exchequer Bills for Public Works, which amounted to 111,0001. making altogether 4,961,0001. being the whole that had been yet voted for the ser vice of the year. But to complete the supply, he proposed a Sinking Fund Loan of 7,500,0001. and he should now state why he would not call for a larger sum. The Committee would see that last year 13,000,0001. had been taken from the Sinking Fund, and 12,000,0001. for the two preceding years. However, no more than £7,500,000 would be required this year, and one reason was, because it was his wish that the Sinking Fund Loan for this year, instead of being extended to the sth July, should close on the sth of Arril, in order that early in the next Session a general revision of the fund should take place— (Hear, hear, hear). It was therefore inconvenient to tie up the Commissioners to so late a period as the sth July. Supposing then the average at four quar ters the same as last year, the whole amount would be ten millions, leaving 7,500,000/. for three quar ters. Another reason fur a smaller loan this year, was the great reduction of the nominal amount of the Sinking Fund, which had taken place in conse quence of certain financial operations that had re ceived the sanction of the House this Session ; and also with a view of making that Sinking Fund avail able to the public set vice, not as to its nominal but its actual amount—( Cheers.) This House had already, by an Act which had not yet received the Royal As sent, charged upon the nominal Sinking Fund, a sum of 2,800,0001. annually, for the payment of the Pension and Half-pay List ; and consequently its no. minal value was so much less this year. Taking, then, this charge of 2,800,000/. and adding it to 7,500,0001. the average of three quarters, it would be found that the whole amounted to 12,800,0001. which was nearly equal to the loan of last year.— Having stated the amount of the loan, which was for Great Britain 7,350,0001. for Ireland, 150,0001. alto. gether making 7,500,0001. it now remained for him to shew what effect it had upon the mar ket. Consi derable saving had accrued to the Public by the man ner in which the loan of this year had been made; for, taking the Consols as a sample of the market at 80s. it would be found that while the Sinking Fund Loan of last year requited 1301. for every lON. of Stock, it was raised this year at 1241. It would, therefore, be observed, that this increate of public credit made a difference this year of six per cent. as compared with. the last. In No. 11. of the papers be fore the douse would be seen what part of the Sink ing Fund was applicable to the purchase of Stock for the redemption of the debt. In 1819 it was intended to have a clear surplus of five millions for the pur chase of Stock. The whole amount of the Sinking Fund this year was, for Great Britain, 14,788,0311. up to the 6th of July, 1823, of which there was 5,038,0311. available, butthe purchase being 934,9261. more than last year, and, consequently, leaving 9,750,0001. to the purpose of a Sinking Fund Loan for the service of the year. It was out of this latter sum that he proposed to take the loan in question, as also the amount necessary to repay the Bank for the -advances they had made to enable the Government to pay off the 5 per cents. The next item was the East India Company's Debt, including the charges at st. Helena for the custody of Bonaparte. If Gentlemen would look to the papers, they would see the sum . • 4sit ' ' Navy Ordnance Miscellaneous - Extra Expense in Ireland Nrhieh the company hat to 1,90004 which, wkh + former rate of interest had osakt the whole 81110trat to miners were appointed on both . matter ; those appointed on the tart meat were Lord Lowther and Sir and those on the part of the CI Abeteremby. and an Hon. Friern. also a Member of the House. T he afraid as ti: e settlement of the differed as to the rate of interest ; - di s allowed, others denied by the. : Commissioners /. the Treasury, and the counter-claims by the Public for monies advanced by the Accountant-General, were dispUted by the Company. In a case of this kind, which was a sort of negotiation between inde pendent States, both contending for their rights, it was difficult to find an impartial umpire. Perhaps Parliament itself might not be considered impartial enough to decide upon such a question, and it was, therefore, thought better to agree to a compromise, the terms of. which should be eventually submitted to its consideration as being the only tribunal before which they could be laid. After much contention upon points, which the papers would sufficiently ex plain, it was thought that fair justice would he done to both parties, by allowing the Company 1,300,000/. upon their claim of five millions—(A laugh). He did not think that the Company were hardly dealt with ; on the contrary, he believed that they them selves were perfectly satisfied with the result ; nor did he see why Parliament ought to be dissatisfied with it. The next consideration was, how the debt was to be liquidated ? It would not be forgotten that in 1812, by the 52d Geo. HI. chap. 135, a loan to the amount of 3,400,0001. had been made to the Company, . which they were to repay by instalments paid into the Bank of England. At the present time the' balance remaining upon this loan amounted to 1,837,0001. against which, if their debt of thirteen millions were set off, and a payment of 537,0001. made, it would be seen that their debt was defrayed, and that they were discharged from every loan of 1812, which was to be changed henceforth to the Consolidated Fund. By the Act in question the Company were enabled to free themselves from the debt at any time by pay ment into the Bank ; but it was thought better to ap ply the sum immediately to the public service, and he had accordingly taken credit for it to the amount of 537,0001. and by a Resolution of that House to exonerate them from the loan in question. It could not be denied that in consequence of this arrange ment a charge of 70,0001. a year, would come upon the Consolidated Fund, yet no new Stock would be created for it—(A laugh). Of the debt of 557,0001., due from the Company, 27,0001. had been paid, leav ing 530,000/. still due. The next item arose out of an Act lately passed, which had not yet received the Royal Assent ; he alluded to the Act for paying off the Half-pay, a measure that would produce to the revenue 2,450,0004 for the October and January quarters. It would now be necessary for him to ex plain the state of the Unfunded Debt, as it stood on the sth of January last. The whole Unfunded Debt of Great Britain, by the votes of last year, amounted to £49,000,000 Trish Treasury Bills - 1,000,000 Advance to Coml-' lic Works - - for carrying on Pub- 368,330 To which actual amount of Unfunded Debt, if the whole amount of Irish Exchequer Bills are added, namely - - - 1,105,181 The total would be - 2E31,473,511 This amount exceeded the sum of 29,000,0001. voted by Parliament, and the reason was the unavoidable falling off of the Sinking Fund loan, which was not paid till July, although the public service required an earlier disbursement ; therefore it was necessary to. issue Exchequer Bills to make good the deficiency. To this was to be added the increase which had taken place on the Unfunded Debt since last year, for taking in the Ordnance Debt, which would swell the total to 32,939,388/. and adding 3,100,0001. to make good the deficiency in the Ways and Means of last year, together with the sum for the repay ment of the 5 per Cents. as well as the debt existing in the beginning of this year, the total amount would be something about 35,000,0001. so that the increase of the debt over and above that of last year, instead of 500,0001. would amount to 1,000,0001. that is, 1,000,0001. of Exchequer Bills would this year be brought into the market more than last, and the holders were to be gradually repaid from the Sinking Fund. Having thus laid before the Committee the amount of Supply and Ways and Means, the actual income and expen diture of the year, it only remained for him to state some of the items that constituted the revenue. The Right Lion. Gentleman then referred to the various items, as enumerated in the following Abstract of the net produce of the Revenues of Great Britain and Ireland, in the year ending January 5, 1822: GREAT BRITAIN. Customs (making the deduction for the Coast Blockade) 9,135,102 Excise (deducting 2,550,0001. lost by the remission of Malt, Salt, and Leather Duties) - 26,546,415 Stamps - - - - 6,108,640 Post Office - - - - 1,318,000 Assessed Taxes (deducting 500,0001. lost by the re mission of the Horse Tax) - Land Tax - • Miscellaneous - Property Tax 6,256,811 - 1,263,274 223,430 - 34,234 Total Net Revenue of Great Britain, including Property and War Duty on Malt - - 50,885,906 Deduct Receipt upon Property and War Duty on Malt - 34,234 Total Net Revenue of Great Britain, exclusive' of Property and War Duty on Malt I. 50,851,672 IRELAND. Customs - - - - Excise and Assessed Tale - - - Stamps - - - - - Post Office - . - - - - Miscellaneous - .. - 1,495,598 1,965,933 400,827 65,538 15.5,054 Total Net Revenue of Ireland 4.103,93 1 Total Net Revenue of Great Britain and Ireland, including Property, and War Duty on Malt - 54,989,837 Deduct Recvipt upon Property and Wu Duty on Malt - - - - • 34,134 Total Net Revenue of Great Britain u►d Ireland. ex- elusive of Property, and War Duty on Malt - 54,955,603 —lt might be asked at the conclusion of the present quarter, in what state the revenue was? By the ac counts made up to last Saturday it appeared very fa vourable, for the sum paid into the Exchequer for the part of the quarter that had gone by, exceeded the same period of last year by 622,0004—(Cheers), . . 1,550,000 150,000 1,700,000 310,000 Greenwich Hospital, Out-Pensiiiners - .. Interest on Exchequer Bills 16,615,000 1,200,000 17,815,000 REDUCTION OF DEBT. Sinking Fund on Exchequer Bills X290,00n To pay Holders of Five per Cents. 2,801,000 Deficiency of Ways and 'Means, 1821, 290,456 Total for Reduction of Debt - - 3,!M1,456 21,196,456 29,000,000 1,000,000 368,3.30 51,564,786 - 54,955,603 . 4 however, these services bad regularly Am that, and the total excess had been 6.190,00 a there was only a decrease (4 800,0001. as with the last. He was sore, that . if the of 1817 could have foreseen that a redoes per cent. in ail articles would take place, sould have made the estimates much 10wer..... _.o saving, therefore, had ire fact been made on this head, as would appear by theft! . comparing the present estimates, thus reduced, with the amount which the ,Committee of Finance had stated she estimates. at. which be contended was the proper test by which to judge of the apparent reduction. Government should have reformed abuses, and particularly have pruned away .the excrescent abuses of the mode of collecting the revenue. To give the House an idea of this, he would state a few facts. The revenue of the.Eaciar , amounted to thirty millions, and the charge for col lection was 1,420,0001. being at the rate of 41. las per cent. The Customs produced somewhat lets than thirteen millions, and the expense of collection wa s 1,479,000 i. being at the rate of thirteen per cent. He begged the House to look at this remarkable difference —the lesser sum requiring the larger amount t•ir col lection. This surely demanded investigation. Re should next go to the Hackney-coaches, which pro duced 26,0001. the expense ot cotlecti .n was four thousand pounds. The Hawkers and Pedlars duty, yielding SI,OOO/. cost GO,OOOI. to ccllect, being at the average rate for the two last mentioned cf twenty-two per cent. These were the taxes they ought to repeal, which cost so much for collection.— With regard to Ireland, the same exorbitant rate was apparent. The Customs and Excise averaged 22 per cent. for collection. Surely the House would not tolerate the continuance of such an abuse. They ought to have Committees of that House upon such a subject. Commissioners a ere very good, but by no means equal to Committees of that House for in quiry. They did not possess the same power. With regard to the Colonies, which were a source of ex pense, instead of revenue, he must say, that it would be far better that the department belonging to the Right lion. Secretary for the IVoods and Forests should be conducted by the Commissariat, b) which it could be done at so much less expense. He wouli next go to the dead weight, which, he must say, was unfairly managed. Instead of filling up new official appointments from the Retired List, new ones were - brought forward, whilst the old remained a d ead weight as before. He would take the libe!ty st proving what he asserted, by a reference to the Lot tery department, by which would he seen the im proper persons chosen to put into office, as far as age went. Looking at the list of persons of first appoint ments, here he found an individual of torty-seven years of age put in to a first appointment, ith a salary of 2251. a year. Here, he was sure, it issaild strike the House, as it had struck him, that a younger person might have been selected from the half-pay, which would have possessed a double advantage. Upon this list, however, he. found the second appoint ment was a person of fifty-seven years of age ; the third fitly-three; the fourth forty. five; the next tor.y. seven ; and the following ones twenty-one, twenty four, sixty-nine, thirty-six, forty-six, thirty-tour—all of which, he contended, might have gone to reduce by so much the dead weight on the country.— In the department of the Hawkers and Pedlars, and Hackney Coaches, the same practice was visible. The appointments there for salaries of 3301. a-year, first appointments, were 57 and 62 years of ap,e, and then went on from 26 to 70 years, affording as he thought a tolerable sample of a desire rather to add to than diminish the dead weight. When the con cerns of the Bank of England came to be discus , :ed before that House, he undertook to shew that instead of three per cent. they received six. The Army, Navy, and Ordnance, were much m. .re expensive than they would be, in consequence of the state cf Ireland, arisint partly from misgovernment, and partly from the number of absentees. A time of peace, like toe present, was tse proper one to ex amine into all these abuses. Though the people might be able to pay, no taxes should be imposed on them that were unnecessary—(Hear, hear). ' Mr. ELLICE said, that few would derive much consolation from the statements of the Right Hon. Gentleman, as it appeared that the same e-tablish ments were to be kept up for 1824. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that, for this and the next year the aggregate amount of the Sinking Fund would be ten millions. liut to form that Fund for the present year a debt had been contracted of 1,800,0001. By the issue of Exchequer Bills the market had been raised, and a loss of five millions had accrued to the country. If there was a real fund to the amount of five millions, it would be much better to take off taxes to that amount. Those who petitioned for a sedation on the interest of the Na tional Debt, acted very unwisely for themselves, as if the laws of justice should be violated in One case, they might be violated in every other. All ranks ought to have contributed to diminish the amount of the National Debt. Mr. ItICARDO said, that the Chancellor of ese Exchequer had always referred to a future year los a permanent Sinking Fund ; but the real Sinking Fund of the present year was 1,400,0001. that being the real net surplus of the revenue, above extenses, end even upon the chewing of the Right Honourable. Gentleman it was only '2,600,000/. in 1524, the sur plus would be under two millions. Though the Funds were so high at present, yet that time had been se lected to add to the funded, and to diminish the amount of the unfunded debt: a process the very re• verse that he would have recommended. On the subject of the Usury Laws, he thought that the present was the proper time to repeal those absurd regula tions. At whatever sum the Bank chose to discount, the rate of interest would be wholly unatfccted by it- Mr. J. MARTIN observed, that scone millions Of interest would, in the course of a tew days, be due to the public creditor, for which no funds had been provided, and fur which Government must look to the Bank. Mr. IIUME stated the permanent annuity charge of the present year to be 29,696,000/. and so tar from there being a prospect of reduction, it appeared that there would be an increase. He was of opinion, theme was no Sinking Fund at all. Mr. LusniNGToN contended, there was a clear Sinking Fund of five millions, as had been stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It ought rather to be matter of congratulation to the House, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to keep up the • , . 4. "m • *ir . . ',armed, which a . lama reams sum paid into the iieasury for the - lor that year; 1 s forth& Chits% and responding quarter was 8,21)9p001.--this year it was ceeded tha had beim allowed, would 8,881,0001. , lie had no hope, however, that the pro- This year Commis- duce of this year wou ld exceed that of the last, as to. compared five sides to toarrange the wards the latter end of it the effect of the repeal of Committer As t he tart of the Govern - the taxes would begin to be felt. If it should e q ual lion of SO ..and Sir George Staunton ; it, the result must be very gratifying. Having stated they woul4 i the Company were Mr. the net income of the year, he now proceeded to state .No saving the amount of the expenditure. The Right Honour. head, as w n. Friend of his, who *as Ine. The Commist.iouers ab}e Gentleman here adverted in detail to the follow. estimates, ing items : tivtereo f the accountx,sbut they Committe . many claims were Army _ . . - £7,705,008 which be by the. Commissioners for -- Extra Itspeus• In !round - 220,000 judge of t' tinter-claims by the Public ---- 7,925.000 have refor ,_ A ..-niintant-General. Nark ___ - " " - 5,480,000 away .the 4 - .. . .. 1,200,000 ~... ___ Reduction of Unfunded Debt Rxchequer Bills - - Irish Treasury Bills - • Bills fur Public Works and Churches Total Which deducted from Leaves a surplus of £3,390,817 To this add other savings arising out of the reduction of the Five per Cents. and the new arrangement for paying off the Half-pay List, and the total amount of sui plus would be 5,000,000/. clear. He then en tered into a statement of the probable expenses of the year 1823, and taking them on the scale of the pre sent year, assuming that the revenue would be consi derably increased, and that the unfunded debt would be very much diminished, he expressed a strong hope that, at the conclusion of that year, there would also be found a clear surplus of 5,000,0001. Thus, in the two years, the amount of surplus revenue above the expenditure would be 10,000,0001. He congratulated the House that an arrangement of such magnitude as that of paying off the Five per Cents. had been carried into execution with such facility. Nothing could better evince the solid nature of our public credit. Stock was now higher in the market than before, so that the public creditor could not complain. Amongst the other beneficial results from it was the resolution the Bank had come to, to reduce the pub lic interest. There was a circumstance which had come to his knowledge that day, and which shesed the great utility of the measure :—he was told that a man had offered for an estate, which was sold under a decree of the Court of Chancery, 50001. more than was intended ; and when asked his reason, he stated that it was in consequence of the reduction of interest by the Bank. He hoped that other measures would follow equally advantageous. Some had thought that some measure should be taken to enforce a re du:tion of interest; but he was opposed to any fur ther regulation upon that subject, further than the old one,. which already existed, and the extension of which he did not desire. The Right Honourable Gentleman concluded by moving a Resolution fo raising a Loan, of the amount of 7,500,000/. from the Sinking Fund. Mr. MABERLY said, that he laboured under great disadvantage in following the Right Honour able Gentleman, not having before him those papers necessary to his understanding fully the subject. Ile had understood the Right Hon. Gentleman suffi ciently, however, to perceive that the Sinking Fund was put forward by him as what he might call the hocus pones of the year. He had taken from that fund, and added to it in such a manner, that it was impossible to make the true state of it at all intelli gible, without a distinct discussion with regard to it. I'he next point was the Debt of the East India Com pany, upon which topic he must say, that he found some difficulty in comprehending the sort of liquida tion that had been made. He was sorry that it had beer) pressed to a settlement ; for it now appeared that we were debtors to the Company, and, at all events, we were minus, as regarded that Company, 1,300,0001. The Right Hon. Gentleman then went to the Finances of 1823, and from this part of his statement the House and the Country had learned, ' that the Right Hun. Gentleman and his colleagues had come to the end of their reductions of the public expenditure; for in his Estimate of the year 1823, be took all the Estimates for the present year at the same amount for the next. It appeared plainly, there fore, that they had come to the end of their savings. But he should say, that if they were to have six mil lions of Sinking Fund next year, at this rate, they ought to have nine or ten millions, if those reduc tions were made that ought to be made. The Noble Marquis opposite, whom he should call the Finance Minister, informed them at the commencement of the Session, that he grounded all his measures upon the maintenance of public credit, and that, upon that principle, no reduction of taxation could be made, but what was afforded by the reduction of the Five per Cents. Previously to this, however, he had stated, that no reduction of taxation was to be made, and that it would afford no relief if it were made. The House had all heard of a speech, delivered no matter where, which stated, that if the farmer were ac quainted with the first principles of political eco nomy, he would know that the reduction of taxation would afford him no relief—that the principles of na ture, if left to fructify, would restore things to their proper state; but that any advantage accruing to the farmer from a remission of taxes, would be taken from him by the landlord. This speech was made in Fe. bruary, and he contended that the principles there laid down were entirely departed from in the subsequent financial operations of the Noble Marquis. The An nuity Plan was a complete violation of the principle of the Sinking Fund, by placing a certain portion of debt upon posterity to relieve the present generation.— Ihe way that he (Mr. Miberly) should have re commended them to reduce taxation, would have been by reducing the whole expenditure of the coon , try. Ihe Committee of Finance of 1817 had declared, as their deliberate opinion, that the charge of the Army, Navy, Ordnance, and Miscellaneous Services, should not for the future exceed 17,350,0001. Since 1 i L