Star. — London, England, 1821-04-07 00:00:00

rr k M r , 110BHOUSE seconded the Amendment. He while he was in office; not a ward was spoken by him] feare d v ery much that what had been stated by his to that effect, until he found himself in the situation in cable Friend, who had just sat down ; would which he now was, and in which he (Lord Castill o a m ir d the same pleasantry out of doo rs as in reagh) trusted he would long remain!—(thar; hear). that House. He feared that matters, which some He had not thought it necessary to offer any opinion' Ge ol e men on the other side were dispmed to laugh upon the last proposition, because he entertained no , wou ld give but little cause for mirth t o t he g reat ho p e that he could make an y approach to the views; ''. l o f the People—(Hear, hear).—He thought that of the Honourable Member. They both moved ial iFiAanourable Friend was well warranted in bring- I such different orbits, that he supposed it would be; ; .„i sa vard his Amendment. It would not be ne- • difficult to expect a coincidence between them ; and' wa for hint to go farther back for arguments as the Honourable Member elongated more and more •in of it than the commencement of the reign from his course every day, he feared that the diffi dgaPcrlres 1.• when Sir Thomas Wentworth, after- cu)ty which opposed their meeting became still more wa rds the well-known Earl of Strafford, moved a insuperable. The Honourable Member ought, how sadmaaa la Parliament, that supply and grievances ever, to recollect, that his plans of retrenchment and i b os ta.go hand in hand. It would be recollected reform had already lost much of their novelty. He a te there bad been, in that reign, a Parliament feared that it was owing to a similar cause—that of o iled the " Patient F'arliament," and the Speaker, their moving in such different orbits—that he found Omagh no gn a t friend to liberty, nor by any means his own opinions also differing so widely from those w ar* to oppose the influence of the Crown where of the Honourable Member for Westminster. That it not too bare-faced, complained of a sum of Honourable Member certainly always delivered his 000 having been voted by the House within sentiments in that House with talent and ability; but ta eaty-fottr bours—( Hear, hear, hear).--But he (Mr. when he (Lord Castlereagh) looked at the great line Hobhouse) had lately seen a sum of twenty-four bun- of separation which lay between himself and that Ho. ( lied thousand pounds voted away within the same nourable Member, he felt discouraged to draw any s h aft period—(Near, hear).—The most enlightened comparison between their respective opinions. Not ere in the country. were decidedly opposed to this withstanding the extent of preparation which that v inous system of expenditure. in the year 1816, Honourable Gentleman had shewn, he begged to as lard Grenville said, that if Parliament continued to sure him, that no information which he (Mr. Hob vote large sums in time of peace, he should not mix house) had given to the House would induce him to in debates which were nothing but a farce! The Par.. appear on the stage. He had been called upon by 1 Raman to which he had referred, posted twenty-four Honourable Member for Wareham to explain why it 1 Members for having received money from the Crown; was that the Earl of Fife had been removed from his sod it appeared that a Nit. Burton had gone about office? Now he conceived he was no more bound to ' distributing it among them. This was a circumstance enter into any explanation why an individual was re to excite the indignation of a Parliament in the time moved from his office, than why an individual was ap of Charles I.—but he (Mr. Hobhouse) had seen no pointed to an office—(Hear, hear). —He apprehended less than forty-seven Members walk out of the doors that it was exclusively the prerogative of the Crown dew H ,use, each of whom was immediately de- to appoiat its servants, and it was equally its prero pendant on the Crown. In speaking of the corrup- gative to dismiss them. He did not, therefore, feel Olin of Parliament in the time of Charles, Andrew that he owed it either to the Honourable Member Marvel said, it was surprising that only twenty-four who spoke last, or to the Honourable Member for Members had taken money, and he congratulated, Westminster, to give any explanations upon this point; the country on the majority having been so pure, else and, indeed, he was surprised that the Honourable the cause of liberty might have been utterly lost. In Member for Wareham particularly should ask for any the Bill of Rights there was a clause prohibiting the explanation of such a circumstance as the removal of freedom of speech in Parliament from being ques- an individual from office, since he might have recol tamed out of Parliament ; and surely, if the freedom lected that the country had been deprived of the ser dspech was not to be questioned beyond the walls vices of that Honourable Member's friends, because ofthat House, much less ought any vote to be brought they had refused to come into office unless they had into dispute or made matter of charge against a Mem- the appointment of every office in the State, even her? Yet, contrarY to this enactment, it seemed that to the offices in the King's Household !—(Hear, Lord Fife had lost his place for a vote he had given hear, h ear). —Nay, they required to have the corn on a preceding night. In the beginning of the reign plete nomination to the offices next his Majesty's per of Williara 111. a Bill had been broug ht in for pro- son, to such an extent as not to allow the feelings of testing the freedom of Parliament, and'after it passed the Crown to stand between them and their appoint- Loth Hbuses, the King was induced to put his veto ments!—(Hear, hear).—However, he had no hesita epon it. But what had the Parliament done upon tion in saying, that he held it to be necessary. that all that occasion? It voted a Resolution, stating, that those who were joined together in the service of the those who advised the King not to give his assent to Crown should think alike upon general p • rioeiPles— the Bill, were enemies of his Majesty and the Coun- (Hear, hear).—At thi . siime time, no partkulat ground, try. The Honourable Member then adverted to the he believed, was stated for the removal of the Earl of corruption that had taken place in the sixth Perlis- Fife, nor was any other intimation given him than man of William, when a sum of £200,000 was dis- that his services were, not any longer required— tributed among tea Members, and called forth the (Hear, hear).—But Lord Fife himself had hypothe pamphlet on " Hush Money," written by the cele- cated a reason for his removal, and he 'went into an brated Mr. Locke. But if the sum of 1:200,000, not explanation of the situation - hi which he stood as a given in perpetuity, but for one occasion, was consi- Member of Parliament, things avith which he (Lord dared an enormous bribe in those days, what could Castlereagh) had nothing whatever to do. .He felt be said of the present time, wbeh £160,008 a-year himself bound to give no explanation of his removal was divided among persons who had seats in that from his office; yet he had no hesitation in asserting House? It was quite impossible, that those who that the Crown, in the legitimate possession and shared that money must not have an undue bias upon exercise of its prerogative, was not unjustifiable in their minds. The House ought to see that the Public requiring that all those who served it, and were •wee satitfied that none of their money went into the united with its Ministers in office, should concur with pockets of any of the Members—(Near, ireal.—lt them on measures of vital importance--(Hear, heat). • -appeared that some Gentlemen entertained an utter He would say, that the individual who voted against semempt for public opinion. This,miglit be clearly the Malt Taz, after the Government had declared •iefatred from what had.been said on a toupee night that - they had placed their' existence upon the cond. by a Right Hon. Gentleman (Hr. Feel), when speak- nuance of that Tax, and thit they could-not carry on ing-on the Catholic Claims. The Right Hon. Gen- the administration of .the country unless. Parliament tleman assured the House, that whatever might be supplied them with the means to do . so, did, in effect, Ilie clamour put of doors, it should pot have the ef- vote for the diSinissal of the present Ministry. He •4ect of making him alter the opinions he had formed said thus much in justification of the Circumstance in on the subject. This, indeed, was a singular sort of question, though, be would repeat, he owed to Ho ..4flectation ; and it reminded him of the language of noura ble Members no ex p lanation concernin g it. age Chambermaid—" The more you call me the more . Mr. CALCRAFT, in explanation, admitted the '1 vein% come!" The Hon. Member dwelt upon this power of the Crown, in the fullest sense, to appoint -point in some fun titer observations, and deprecated any to , and remove from O ffi ces. All that he contended 'night offered to the general sentiments of the people. for was, that if a Member of Parliament was dis ' •13efore the Amendment was read from the Chair, missed from any Office he might hold, on account of strangers were ordered to withdraw, but no division any vote he gave in that Hou se, it was hi g hl y un took place; and, on being re-admitted, constitutional—(Hear, hear). 'Mr. CALCRAFT was ou his legs, supporting the Mr. TIERNEY was never more surprised than Resolution. He observed, that no stronger proof when he heard the present Resolution submitted to could be adduced of the influence of the Crown in the House—(Hear, hear). He thought when he came that House, than that a Member had been dismissed down to the Housethat night, that they were going • from office because he had voted against the Minister. at once lute the consideration of the Estimates. He Nothing like economy had ever been considered, and had thought so, because the industry of an Honour the numerous petitions demanding it were despised able Friend of his had brought such details before the and neglected. The establishments now kept up House, that it would be enabled to go into those Esti vrere entirely on too large a scale, and not to be war- mates with greater facility than it had ever done ranted by reference to any former occasion. It also before. Instead of which, he found a motion em appeared to him that the degree of influence used by bracing a variety of topics, upon which he was called the Crown was dangerous to the freedom of Parlia- upon to vote, without the least consideration. He anent, aid-ought to be restrained - -(Cheers).—With might not possibly object to the contents of that Re these sentiments, he concurred in the first part of his , solution in detail; but to be called upon to vote for • Honourable Friend's proposition; but as to the Exe- it altogether, under such circumstances, was more . . cadet Offices.of State, he wished to see them repre- than he deemed consistent with his duty—(Hear, • - seated in that Home. Those pffices were not over- hear).—ln the first part of the Resolution, he could paid ; and if his Honourable Friends Resolution did have no difficulty to join. He was always ready to not include these•offiees, he would assent to it. But agree to any motion for reasonable economy. In there were other offices which he thought were too deed, lie was afraid be might be charged with lend ' highly paid, and might be dispensed with. That part fug his support to plans which were almost unreason of his Honourable Friend's proposition which re- able in the extent •to which they would carry that spected the Earl of Fife, deserved, he thought, the object. But the question respecting Lord Fife, was . most serious attention ; and he called upon the Noble an insuperable objection to his voting for the Resolu- Lord opposite (Castlereagh) to give the House some hon. One Honourable Member said, that certain explanation of the dismissal of that Noble Earl from words had been spoken by the Noble Lord, and an his office—(Hear). other said they had not been spoken. These wer ds• • LordCASTLEREAGH said, that theHonourable had not been taken down on the Journals, and-be • Member who had proposed this Resolution had only could not, of course, proceed without having s obtained acted in his usual vocation. He was the Protester- further information. If 1,.0rd Fife came there to com- Goteral and Libeikr-liexerni of Parliament--(Hear, plain that his Office had been taken from him, for the , heart and soros cries of Order!)—and only pursued reason ascribed by some, then he had no doubt that • • his common course, by speaking a kind of prologue Ministers would be impeached. With respect to the to the elaborate piece which was to , be performed demand made by his friends of appointing the House by the Honourable Member for Aberdeen by and bye hold of the King, it was well known that there were -(Hear! and &uighter).—lt was rather a curious cir- two jarring interests in that House, which rendered . -;.eiunstance, however, that the Honourable Member it necessary that the same party who were in poWer •-• far Appleby did not think it necessary to make any should also be about the King's person—(Hear,hear). complaint of the kind with which he now came fen But such a demand was very different fiorn removing lard. when he ..had formerly held a, distinguished of- a person from his office in consequence of a vote _acs is the Board al Coottnnit—iilear, aear,hear).— given in that House. He certainly advised his Hon. ;ha ao complaints were heard 'ruin. the Honour- Friend to withdraw his Resolution s or he should be abk ilembet. So gtdoctions were proposed by him_ .ibli&esi to give his t use against it. If its cOntents . • , t-*..~. . ;~- • .- ---~~~ , were proposed in detail, his objections would be re moved. What he wished to be understood was, that he was not voting against the principles of the Iteso-. lution, but against the sweeping manner in which it had been brought forward. He had intended to say a few words about the discords existing in the Admi nistration, but he should take another opportunity of so doing. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by repeating his opinion as to the nature of the question respecting the Earl of Fife. Mr. H. G. BENNETT said, with respect to the dis missal of the Earl of Fife, the Earl did say, that he was dismissed for the vote which he gave, and that he was so informed by high *authority ; those were his Lordship's words; and he added, that he believed the dismissal was intended as a punishment to him self and an example te others. He regretted no one took the words down ; then they would have been able to force Ministers town explanation of their con duct. As the ease now stood, however, these was sufficient to joitify him in the vote he should give. He trusted his Honourable Friend would press his motion, and if no other person went out with him, he (Mr. Bennett) would. Lord ,AA HAMILTON had little doubt as to the words used by Lord Fife, but he doubted much whether Lord Fife would now state that he had u-ed them. The Administration expected the Noble Lord would have disgraced himself by giving a different vote, but as the Noble Lord did not, the Administra tion had done that which disgraced them, by dis missal—( Hear, hear, hear). He would ask, in what situation had this dismissal placed Lord Fife's suc cessor, and what character would his votes, if in the House, bear ?—(Hear, hear). He (Lord A. Hamilton) agreed with the assertion in the Resolution of his Honourable Friend, that the House had not paid at tention to the Petitions of the People ; neither had they adopted retrenchment or economy on any point ; and therefore he would on every occasion which oc curred vote for reduction. Mr. CREEVEY repeated' his assertion as to the words used by Lord Fife. The Gallery was then cleared for a division— For the Resolution - 36 Against it - - 120 Majority against the Resolution - —B4 On the re-admission of strangers Mr. HUME was regretting the division which had just taken place. He was aware of the difficulty of wording a Resolution so as to meet the wishes and views of 200 Gentlemen ; and sorry he was to find Gentlemen agreeing in facts, differing in forms of expression. The House now met like school-boys, the Noble Lord their master—(Hear, hear)—and well he managed his scholars ; for he impressed effectually on their minds the doctrine that one who should presume to act contrary to the master's orders, should be turned out of school !—(Hear, hear). —The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to comment on the enor mous expenditure kept up in the Civil Department; and said lib would now move, “that it be an instruc tion to the Committee that they should take into con sideration the Resolution of the Finance Committee of 1817, recommending every possible reduction irr the salaries of the Clerks, and others, in the Civil Department." He entreated the House to adopt this Resolution, by which they would not pledge them selves to any extent of reduction, but only to adopt it to the utmost extent which was practicable. He concluded by moving the Resolution in question. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON seconded the Resolution, and strongly reprobated the system of retired allowance, as it at present existed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, those Gentlemen who asserted that no reduction had taken place in the public expenditure, had paid but little attention to the voluminous Returns laid before the House, from which it would appear that very considerable reduction had taken place. It was a ge neral instruction to the superiors of office, that when ever a vacancy occurred, inquiry should be made whether the place could be abolished, and if it could not, whether the salary could not be reduced?. and reduction had taken place, although not to the extent', which Government wished, yet to the utmost which circumstances would allow. To reduce the allow-, ance to retired public servants, or to the widows of such, would not benefit the public service or the pub lic revenue; but would, he was persuaded, have a directly different effect. The Right Honourable Gen. tleman then proceeded to defend the compensation and allowances given to the different retired Public Officers, as advantageous, rather than otherwise, to the public service. Sir J. NEWPORT condemned the grant of £2,000‘ a-year to Lord Tyrawley, as retired Barrack Master General of Ireland, as too large; and expressed a de. sire to know whether , the accounts of his office, which were in arrear, had been audited? Mr. D. BROWNE defended Lord Tyrawley. Mr. W. POLE said, some years ago Lord Tyraw ley's allowance or pension was stopped, and that with his own consent, till his accounts should be settled. And he was happy to say, the Noble Lord's account. was settled, and there was a balance due to him. Mr. ELLICE was not one of those who desired to take away remuneration for public services; on the contrary, he thought some public servants were not paid sufficiently. He would only instance the situa tion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, for all the arduous duties he had to perform, received only 1.300 a-year more than Lord Tyrawley's pension. He suggested the propriety of taking a per tentage from the salaries of persons holding offices, to form a fund for retired servants of the Public—(Hear, hear). Mr. HUSKISSON was for referring the Report to the Committee altogether, instead of adopting a par.l tial Resolution, as now proposed. With respect to the income of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, since the union of the Exchequers of Ireland and England, the two salaries had raised his Right Hon Friend's salary, 'almost to a level •with the other Great Officers of State. Mr. HUME was ready to accede to the proposition of the Right Hoil. Gentleman, to refer the whole Re port to the Committee., Mr. W. SMITH said, it was an invidious duty to be imposed on any Hon. Member, to be called on to" point out any individual'as being too well paid. The Resolution was then withdrawn, and the mo- tion for referring the Sixth Report to the Committee was adopted. ' The House then went into a Committee.—On the , Resolution for granting £50,418 for the office of Se cretary at Wax, • Colonel DAVIES went through the items df these Estimate's, and contended, that If the War Office was •-• paid sal:tries to the sae amount as in 1806, t saving to the Public uld be £13,000; but as he meant to throw no impediment in the way of publit businesi, he should only wi.h to reduce the expense of the office by E.7)00. He therefore moved that the vote should be 1:45 1141. _ Par -- Lord PALM E RSTJN said, that he v► •as entitled to the Hon. Gentleman% vote, inasmuch as with fees and all the expense of the Office was upwards of L:50,000 in 1806. His Private Setretary did other duties than those attached to his Office. By turning over some of the Clerks to look after the arrears, there had bees; a saving to the country of £400,000, of which £14,000 s had been ;mid into the Bank. In the two last years the War Office had literally cost the Public nothing,. because it had actually recovered much more than The Public had paid to it. Mr. HUME contended; that he was prepared to proVe that the Noble Lord had greatly increased the expenses of his Office. He should wish to know from the Noble Lord, when the fees of his Office ceased? In the year 1814, whet we had nearly 200,006 men in arms, we only paid for the War Department £62,000, and now it was above £2600 more, though we were now in the seventh year of peace, and after t he great reductions made in our Army. The Government, he had no doubt, could save £30,000 a-year by taking away the Agency of the different Regiments of the Army. He knew that there could be a great redvc tion made in the law expenses of the War Office.— There was a greater apparatus and number of Clerks now employed than wore necessary • for a letter of no moment must be answered formally, and entered,- Bcc. The Noble Lord's Office required tevision ; and he was extremely sorry that the reduction had not been moved at £lO,OOO, instead of C 5000; but he would say, that half a loaf was better than no bread !---(flear, hear). Lord PALMERSTON put it to the House whe ther they could discharge the persons on the Super annuated List, who had spent their best years and blood in the service of their country ?—tHear, hear). The total amount of law charges for his ace, did not amount to £3OOO a-year. He (Lord Palmerston) had effected a reduction in his Office, and its depart ments, to the amount of £20,000 a-year. But there was a haziness about the intellectual vision of the Honourable Gentleman, which made him see things in a different way from what was really the fact. Sir H. PARNELL thought the Noble Lord inde corous in using the language he had employed ; and for his own part he believed there was not a single, charge brought against the Noble Lord's office, that could not be borne out by facts—(Hear, hear). There were, at least, ten or twelve Officers employed in the settling of the Army Accounts, when any two Offi cers might do the business as well at one-fourth the expense to the Public. • Lord PALMERSTON was sorry if he had said any thing which could be considered offensive; but the Honourable Baronet should recollect that in that House the habit was to give and take ; and when he and those on his side of the House, were . Fbarged with being a corrupt majority, he was suit it was more than any man would venture to say to another out of that House—(Hear, hear). Mr. W. SMITH complained of the amount of re tired pensions, especially as they were not granted to the most meritorious Officers. He observed upon t h e speech of the Noble Lord, which, he said, was neither more nor less than the slang and cant of office! • Mr. BENNETT said, that all that had been done on the part of Ministers had been a gentle ravishment, and had been extorted from them by compulsion. It would be of much advantage if the business of the Army was conducted in the same way as that of the Navy. Mr. MABERLEY stated, that of the expense of ; £30,000 for agency, much might be saved to the public. Lord PALMERSTON stated, that any alteration in the present mode would be attended with much in- convenience to Officers. Mr. WILSON thought that some saving might be made in the Agency Department, and should vote for the reduction of £5,000. Mr. CREEVEY thought the House ought to go more into detail.—(Hear, and laughter.)—He would explain what he meant. He saw by the Estimates that the Deputy Secretary at War had a salary .of £2,500 per annum; the First Clerk £1,400. He had a great curiosity to see a Clerk with a salary of £1,400 a-year! —(A laugh).—The Principal Clerk had £1,200. He would wish to know at what hour these Clerks attended at their Offices, and whether they came there in their curricles or in their tilburies?— (Loud laughter).—The most distinguished and suc cessful men in the Army, men who were made Peers, were not so well paid. Major-Generals had but £5OO, whilst Clerks had £1,200, and £1,400 a-year! (Hear, hear).—He did not know whether he could, just at that time, have these Clerks before the House, but come they must—(Hear, hear).—He thought, in these times it was absurd to give such salaries, while the People were so ill able to pay them (Hear, hear). Lord PALMEItSTON said, that if the Hon. Gen tleman would compare the salary of the present Se cretary at War and the appointments to which.the Hon. Gentleman had alluded, with what they were some years back, they would find that the present rate of salaries was upon the economical system. Mr. O'GRADY observed, that he found the name of the late Deputy Secretary at War down in one place for a superannuation of £BOO a-year some years back; since that, he had got into another office, and now retired upon i.:1800 a-year. He wished to know if a man acquired an additional claim to superan.- nuation allowance by changiag his office? Lcrd PALMERSTON replied, that the late De-- puty Secretary at War, on receiving a retired allow ance of £l,BOO received the £SOO alluded to for a long series of services in foreign count; ics. The Ho nourable Member would also perceive that the name of that individual was the 'same as that of one of our most distinguished military heroes who had fallen in the service of his country abroad. The individual in question was the representative GE the late Sir John , Moore, and that circumstance was taken into consi deration in making the allowance, whiCh was granted shortly after the death of that distinguished Com mander—(Hear, hear). After a few words *bet Mr. O ' Gannr, Colonel Myles, Sir Roam WILSON, and. brjr. FARQUHARSON on the subject cf the Riding Establishment teeth* Cevah7. - tile House divided, whelk there , appeared • • . FOT the Resoladort - Allies' it - • -los - 67 - Majority - - - - . —39 The °tiff Orders of the Da/ were ailr'sed °fl 4 114 the lieu* adiesrned at a quarter Oat Wite /Mixt. :er le se an c. ad SW wt ,; E' " i ; . 1