Star. — London, England, 1831-04-22 00:00:00

I . I 114 rl l . The LORD CHANCELLOR rose and made a remark, to the effect that one of the least enviable circumstances attached to the Woolsack was, the close impri•nnment which attended the honour and dignity of a stilt upon it; for his part, happy should he be if he could occarienally go below the har even for a momentary relief . The Marquis of LONDONDERRY hoped as strangers were al lowtd to be present yesterday during the debate, the same privilege would be continued on the present occasion. On the motion of the Earl of MANSFIELD strangers were or .;• rs d to withdraw, and their lordships remained in debate for upwards I* ,•t hour and a half with closed doer*. tto the re-admission of strangers, Mr. PULMAN t the Yeoman Usi.* r of the Mack Roil, appeared at the bar, having in his custody Mr. Lawson. who was immediately placed at the bar. The LORD CHANCELLOR then put on his bat, and said— John Jost ph Lawson, the paragraph of which you have acknow. tedged yourself to be the publisher, by the unanimous voice of this thiose. has been declared to be a gross and scandalous libel on Ed tt,•:^d Henry, Earl of Limerick, and also a gross breach of the pri r:l.•Ecs of the orders if this House, provided and recognised by the country at large, and possessed by the house, not for the benefit or aggrandisement of individual members, but for the better exe cution of the laws of the country : a strange thing indeed would it be if the powers possessed by the other legislative house, and by every court of record in the realm, should not also be possessed by the illus trious assembly which has the hi4hest judicial functions in the r:alm to perform. No one who has read the scandalous publication of which you have acknowledged yeutrelf to he the printer, but must agree that it merits punishment--to the end that you do not commit any repetition of it, and to the end that other persons be prevented in like manner:— but the house mingling mercy with justice, and anxious to take into consideration the circumstance of your having frankly confessed your self faulty as the printer of the paper in question, and having expressed contrition for the offence, and considering also the apology you have made to the noble lord, the subject of the attack, and to the house— and that you have suffaed —though nut a long yet a close confinement —the house is willing to temper judgment with mercy, and to be satis fied with reprimanding you as you are hereby reprimanded, for ycur offence, and ordered to be discharged out of custody on payment of the usual fees. Mr. Lawson then bowed and retired, and the reprimand was ordered to he entered on the journals of the house. LIVIL LIST. Lord WITARNCLIFFEcWtpi;inea that the civil list bill had p..ased through the house without having, in the first Instance, agrees- We to the forms of the house, obtained his Majesty's consent for bring ing it in. Many noble lords had last night voted for it on the suppo sh ion that it was not deficient in thisrespect. The Duke of RICHMOND was not prepared at the moment to argue the matter with the noble lord who ought td have prior notice of a motion on the subject. Lord WHA NCLIFFE signified his intention of renewing his ob servations on the subject to-morrow (this day.) After a few words from the Duke of WELLINGTON and the Duke RICHMOND, The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he had no wish to prolong the discussion ; he might be ignorant of the forms of their lordships house ; he was, however, pretty well versed in the forms of the other house t:f parliament. In that house, when a minister of the crown lootight forward a measure, or . even presented a petition, it was equi valent to a consent on the part of the King. After a few words front Lord BEXLEY, the entry on the journals ~ 1 the house of Slay, Mid, relative to the consent of his late Majesty ticorge IV. was read, and the question was postponed till to-morrow. A Noble PEER presented a petition against the Beer Bill. 'INFORM. The LORD CHANCELLOR presented 20 petitions praying for parliamentary reform from Halifax, Perth, Tiverton, West Ham, and other laces, making in all 70 petitions presented by the noble and learned lord that day, he ob s erved. The bills on their lordships' table were forwarded a stage, and the i'Anage atijoumed at flalf-past Nine o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, APRIL 21. . _ _ Owing to three being a ballot for a committee to try the merits of the Knave,.borough Election Committee, the Gallery was not opened till near five o'clock. Immense numbers of persons were in attendance to rush into the Gallery, and it was soon illed to excess. The House in all parts was amazingly crowded, far more crowded than we ever CAY it on any prev.ous occasion, both opposition and ministerial benches wtre oppressively thronged, and so continued, not a member leaving his place, although after the opening of the gallery some private bills were p:oceeded with. Even the side galleries, those belonging to members, were filled. The highest degree of excitement prevailed in the house ; all was hubbub, so much so, that not one word of the private business could be heard. The Judges ap with a message from the Lords. What they said was not ; though. at the very sound of " message," there were loud calls for " near," u if tUre were to be some notifica tion of the period of diatolution ; but on hearing that it only related to some bill, announcing (we believe) that the Lords had agreed to the Civil List Bill, there were strong signs of disappointment expressed by the aristocracy.—(" 013, ob, and much laughter.) Several notices were postponed, but the only one heard in the gallay was that of Ald. WOOD, who postponed, till May next, his motion re garding the diminution of public salaries. LAW or DIVORCE. Tower's Divorce Bill went through a Committee ; counsel having been Kahl and witnesses examined in support of the Bill. Mr. Fresh field SAS in the Chair, and Serjeant Spankie was understood to have addreaaed the Committee. The examination having continued fur some time— Mr. Aid. WOOD said it would be convenient for the Chairman to repeat the evidence, as not five persons could have heard it. (Hear.) The Houic having resumed, Mr. HUYI E expressed the hope that if we were to have a reformed parliament, there would be amongst other matters a reform of the law regarding Divorces ; as the house would see that what had just taken place was mere farce—and only calculated to bring the institutions of the country into contempt. (Cheers.) —Report ordered to be received to-morrow. D iSON presented the reduced list of the ballot fora Committee, to try the merits of the Knareaborough Election petition—Committee LW E a POOL. ►MOttl. 31r. BE said, that he rose to move a resolution regarding the exercise of the franchise In Liverpool. He would not go into the de. ta;:s of the proceedings • he assumed that members were fully acquaint ed with the evidence w hich had been printed for the house, and he Oinulti content himself with doing little more than move his resolution.l He would only premise with stating that he believed the corruption to hive procaded front the highest quarters in Liverpool; that the cot. reptiot., possibly, had never been carried to a higher extent; and that he by no means blamed the freemen as much as those who britied them. He should to morrow move for leave to bring in a Lill to amend the representation for Liverpool. He concluded with moving a resolution declaring, " That it is the opinion of this house dint the system of bribery and corruption in the election of Mem bers of Parliament for Liverpool demands the attention of this house, and that it required amendment." GENERAL GASCOYNE trusted that the honourable mover would reflect well on the course he was pursuing—for few men had his estates more deeply mortgaged. Lord EBRI NGTON and other members immediately rose to order. The SPEAKER said, he was sure the expression had escaped the gallant member by mistake. (Hear, hear.) General GASCOYNE resumed. Ile had not meant to give in. dividual offence ; he meant to apply the remark generally as il lustrative a the stake all had in the country. (Hear, bear, hear.) Ile begged to say, that from his own experience there was not a spot in the whole world where corruption was less. (Loud laughter.) He spoke from his personal experience; his elections had never cost him one shilling, and he had received more plate than he would like to boast of for his services, besides thanks upwards of 120 times. (Hear.) If there were corruption, it was, he was persuaded, with the constituents, not with the candidates. In this case, he be. Lewd the charge, the general charge, was unfounded, false. But not truly had his elections not cost him one shilling, but the scrim was the use wi:it the elections of Mr. Canning and Mr. Huskisson, gentlemen whose principles so many now deserted. (Hear.) He cared nothing about being sent back to his constituents, those whom he had repre sented for thirty-five years, for he was sure of being returned again ; he had turned over even the noble lord on the woolsack, who well knew what was the cost of votes. (Hear, and Question.) He should object to the motion, becaLse lie believed it to be unjust and unfounded. (Hear.) Mr. J. WOOD said he believed what the hon. member had stated; hr was too old a taetitian (and a recent event proved to be a good one) to be personally acquainted with the sums given for votes. Three years ago he produced In that house a list containing the names of parties sub. sei ibing—the votes obtained—the profits derived therefrom—and the places gained in consequence of the subscription—( Hear) ; and he oflered the paper in that house to Mr. Canning's friends or Mr. Hus kisson, but none would take it. The fact was, as he had stated, and was prepared to prove, that the merchants and traders of Liverpool had long been in the habit of making a profitable speculation of returning members to that home. Mr. Ruebton had offered to prove the case on the hustings, and he was prepared to prove the case now. (Cheers.) in consequence of the statement he had mad* in that house, a letter was published in the Liverpool Papers, charging him with having asserted whet was incapable of proof, that disgraceful corruption and bribery characterized the election at Liverpool, to which he then dis. tit ctly asserted in answer, that the merchants and freemen of that borough had made, for a series of years, a profitable commercial specu latezn from subscribing sums towards defraying election expenses. (Hear.) In 1826, a friend of his on the hustings, at Liverpool, offered to produce from the papers of a gentleman, lately deceased, an account of the sums which such gentleman ha d aubcribed to the Gallant General's election. his Committee had promised him, if he subsaibed a sum of 3001. that a place should be obtained for him in the Fades or Customs. In consequence of that gentleman's death, the matter actually had made a claim upon the Committee that the money should be returned. (Loud cheers.) What corruption could be more &pante—what proceedings more abandoned and profligate ! Why, so open had the proceedings, the traffic in votes, been, that depu. tations were sent round to the voters to ask how much they had been offered, with instrectioss to proffer 11. more. (Loud cries of " hear, hear.) Nor were the corruptions limited to the elections of 'Member; ; of Parliament—they entered into the appointments of mayor and ma gistrates. No one could become a mayor at much less cost than 60001. and then he was a magistrate for life. Such was the way in which they were appointed to the magisterial office. (Hear.) Ought those prac tices to continue ? Could they be said to be commendable? They were not—and he was authorised to say, that all the respectable people of Liverpool would rather have the town disfranchised than endure these abominable and disgraceful corruptions. (Cheers.) What he had said he could prove at the bar. (Loud and continued cheering.) Lord SEFTON said he could bear testimony to the correctness of what had been asserted as to the corruptions in the elections for Liver. pool. He knew that the grossest corruptions had constantly prevailed in the elections for Liverpool—(cheers), and as to the elections having cost the Gallant General nothing, be had heard him say that " his eke ton expenses were settled every morning." (Loud cries of hear.) Mr. GLADSTONE said that Mr. Brougham's Committ e e had had quite as much to do with these corruptions as any body else—(a laugh) —and that some of the expenses still remained unpaid. (Cheers and laughter.) Mr. C. WOOD said, having served on the Liverpool Election Com mittee, he must state that the corruption had been fully proved; but that from the evidence it did not appear that Mr. Swart had ever paid one shilling, or that he knew any thing of the corruption that had been practised on his account.—(Hear.) Sir R. PEEL observed, that he had read the evidence with care, and he was not prepared to my that something ought not to be done. The proceeding, however, was one of judicial character, but why was the language of the resolution altered from that of the report of the com mittee? But if there could be an inveterate system of corruption proved, as regarded the system of out-voters, be should support their disfranchisement. On that point he thought no one could differ in opt ▪ but at all events he saw no reason for having the language of the mealfition to differ from that of the committee's report. Lord ALTHORP said it would be equally well to confirm the language of the report—both were equally strong. Mr. BENET replied. In all his elections not one shilling had been %putt for dishonourable purposes—could the gallant General say dse same as regarded his elections for Liverpool—not as teacake' his can payments, but those of Committe e s on his account-441asi)— He was ready to withdraw the resolution, and move that the report be adopted. (Hear, hear.) Sir R. VYV YAN complained of the time being thus consumed.— He added that, considering the state of excitement of the house, owing to the reports circulating in public during the last twenty-four hours, that a dissolution of the present Parliament eras to take place, which may or may not be true, in consequence of our deciding—(hear, hear, from the oppositiont—that the numbers of this house still are to be kept up—the members returned by the Protestant part of England—it was of the utmost importance for us to know whether we axe really to be dis solved, and sent back to our Protestant constituents or nut.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")—lt is of the highest importance for us to know whether his Majesty ie determined, for the first time in the annals of the history of this country, to come down and dissolve Parliament, be cause his Majesty's ;Ministers have come forward with a plan for the total subversion and entire destruction of the foundation of the t onsti. tution, and because the House of Commons have determined not to consent to the plan, so far as it goes, to reduce the number of English representatives. (Cheers.) Ido not know for what reason it is his Ma jesty's Ministers have made this the ground of a dissolution. I know that I had not the slightest idea of voting on the late occewion, for the purpose of throwing out the Bill in that way. The Bill baying been carried in the second reading by a majority of even one, ought to have been discussed in Committee; and I certainly should have sup. posed that the question upon the clause for disfranchising the nume rous boroughs that have been alluded to, would have been the question in which the fate of the bill would have been decided. I believe his Majesty's minsters, in their desperate condition (loud cheers from the Opposition) have resorted to this step for the purpose of exciting the people throuzliaut the United Kingdom (Hear); and I only hope that they themselves, and their King, may not have to look back to this as the first great blow struck in destruction of the monarchy of this coun. try. (Immense cheers.) The question I then put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer is, whether it is the intention of his Majesty's ministers to proceed with the bill, or whether they mean to advise the King, to dissolve Parliament, because they have not got the House to consent to the reduction of the number of representatives (cheers), and to abandon the Protestant interests of this country ? (cheers.) Lord ALTHORP immediately rose to reply. There was amazing agitation in the house, and it was a long time before the cheering and confusion so subsided that his Lordship could proceed. Eventually he was enabled to address the house, and briefly replied to the follow ing effect :—I have no hesitation in saying, in answer to the question put byithe Hon. Baronet, that having taken into consideration the ne• ceasary consequences, and the necessary effects of the division which took place the other night, it is not the intention of his Majesty's Government to proceed with the bill. (Deafening cites of hear.") I do not consider that it would be consistent with my duty to answer the question farther. (Hear.) Colonel DAVIS next rose; but so much noise and ebnlkellon en• sued, in consequence of the Members cheering, talking, and quitting their places, considering that there was not likely to be any further ex planation, that it was a long time before any of the honourable mem ber's remarks could be heard. He said he could not but regret the de cision the ministers appeared to have come to. He thought it was hasty ;he did not see the immediate necessity for it. Many undoubt edly were for the Bill ; but there was not universal feeling for it—that he felt himself bound to confess. If he might give advice, he would say, go on with the Bill, and get as much as they could. Many amend ments of the representation might beobtained if they could not get the whole Bill. Mr. DUNCOMBE said that ministers bad not acted with common discretion in withdrawing the bill. Their proceeding would tend to confirm an opinion that he had often heard expressed out of doors, that they were not sincere. (Hear ' hear) No one in that House could be prepared to hazard an Ida' ofwhat might be the consequences, if they were to appeal to the public at this time; but be would ask them, not withstanding all their professions, what had they done for the country? They had not fulfilled their situations in any way such as the country had reason to expect. Mr. PORTMAN said he did not intend to make an election speech, bat be thought ministers bad acted very wisely in not proceeding with the measure, and they would not have acted wisely bad they r themselves to be led away with and to have taken up the time of the house with any of the subterfuges that had been thrown across their path ; but they had acted as they ought to have done in the deter mination to grapple with the main question and to confine themselves to that alone. The ministers would be right in throwing themselves on the country, for the people would now be enabled to discover that that ques tion was in their own hands, and they would act upon that conviction if they were appealed to. He was glad that the question was not to be proceeded in this Session for that very reason. Vhat might be the con sequences it was not his province to say. Whether °ram his Majesty would exercise his prerogative, and command a dimolution, it was not for him to give an opinion, but thought that such a resolution would be desirable. Colonel SIBTHORPE alluded to the remarkable speech that bad been made by the last member, that be did not mean to make an elec tion speech. He (Col. Sibtborpe) was aware that there were new modes of election in contemplation the read with ineffable disgust, in the public prints, that for the purpose of returning members by subeßip lion there were formed political unions, and that these intimations were signed by names, among which appeared several hon. members of that house. He would rather retire into private life than be re urned by subscription by political unions, and particularly such political unions as thaw were. He thanked GOD he had not voted with members who would have disfranchised so many innocent people. He was rather for extending the elective franchise. The ban. Colonel inveighed with great vehemence against the bill that had been perpollirby mi. nisters, and dwelt at length on what he designated their vacillation in all the measures they had brought forward; and now at thiscrisis, he said, they ought not to have kept their intentions a secret, but at once have declared what they meant to do. [This we understood to apply to a dissolution or resignation.] If ministers did not give greater satisfaction than the present had done, he (Colonel tilbthorpe) did not wish ever again to sit to that House. (Hear, heir.) Mr. ROBINSON said, he thought that ministers had acted wisely in withdrawing die measure, and he considered that the conduct of the hon. member for York was very inconsistent in taxing them with having done so, seeing that he bad done all that he could to obstruct the bill in its progress. He was convinced, notwithstanding all that might be professed or said by them, that all those who had voted for the motion of the gallant general (member for Liverpool), were enemies to any description of reform whatever. He cared not for the resolution of the honourable baronet (member for Cornwall), as it was a mere tissue of truisms, and amounted to nothing. The bill of ministers ought to have een suffered to have gone to a committee, undisturbed by any other opposition, and then let it be discussed ; it was for glut purpose that he had votd for the second reading, and he would have been happy If it had attained only of its objects, namely, to have done away with the nomination boroughs. But whatever became of the measure now, he (Mr. Robinson) was perfectly convinced that some measure, similar to that of the Hon. Member for Tavistock, must be adopted in that House • for without It no confidence could be expected from the country, and without it no Government could preside.— (Hear hear.) Sir It. VYVYAN attempted an explanation, but be was put down by the cries of " spoke, spoke." He was not heard. Lord lIIORPETH defended the course adapted by Ministers, and condemned as founded on fallacy the attacks that bad been made upon them by Colonel Sibthorp. Sir C. FORBES congratulated the country that Ministers had Moan• dossed their revolutionary measure. ( Much laughter and which_peevented the Hon. Baronet from being well, beard.) W e i e te:4= to a olutlon and a new election, be did rot think that Ministers would dare to attempt it at this time. (Hear.) He hoped that would perhaps have mere prudence. (Cries of ced'r.) It was p ble they might intend to resign, but he thought that the country need not expect it: they bad struggled so long for power that they would cling to it to the last. He did not know what they could say for them selves if they threw themselves on the country ; they had been beaten in all their measures except one—the tax ea steam boats, and that had not yet been decided. But, nevertheless, he thought that they would verify the statement of Mr. Canning, descriptive of a similar ministry. They would keep by the ship as long as they could, and when driven from that would, take to the boat, and when they lost the boat they would cling to the oars. (Cheers from the Opposition.) - - Mr. H. DAVIS designated the measure as one of a revolutionary nature, and he would impress that opinion on his constituents. He congratulated the House that it bad been withdrawn. If any enemy had wished to get rid of King, Lords, and Commons, be could have devised nothing better than that bill ; and he could have wished that all his constituents had been present to hear him make that declaration. Lord VALLETORT reprobated the idea of a dissolution of parlia ment The present question was not one that could be decided by the country at this time, in its present state of excitement; but he was sure that the measure was one that could only meet the approbation of an excited mob. It was highly criminal—(bear, hear)—lt was neither more nor less than a political murder of the Constitution and all its in., stitutions. (Hear, hear.) Mr. B. Pill CE disapproved of the challengei by Insinuations that had been thrown out, as if to induce Ministers to resign; he thought that in doing so they would take a rash step, so long as they had the con fidence of his Majesty and the public; but he thought it would be wise on their part:to appeal to the country. Mr. Al. FITZGERA LD said he had nothing to concede to; for bad the motion of the gallant general been more sweeping than it was, he (Mr. F.) would have voted for it, and be considered himself bound to have voted for any measure that was to defeat the whole bill. He could not think of enlarging the representation of Scotland and Ireland at the expense of the representation of England. He hailed with joy the with. drawing of the measure. It had been introduced at a very unsuitable time, when the minds of the people were labouring under the effects of excitement of the revolutionary measures in other countries. He regretted that ministers would have resolved on a dissolution at a time of such great and general excitement. In one part of the king. doin that excitement had reached to an alarming extent. He thought the recent elections in Ireland, which had visibly taken place under the ex clusive influence et the bon. member for Waterford, should have been a lesson to ministers. Much had been said about the power of nowis e. lrion in boroughs; but what was that power compared to the power of nomination about to be conferred on the member for Waterford.— (Hear, hear.) Ministers could not reckon on a military force. Cal culating from the amount of military force present at the two elec. tions, he asked where was the army great enough to be present at all the elections ? The honourable member for Waterford had, in. deed, promised Government that the elections should pass on trap. quill,: but great as was his influence, even he could not restore the western and southern parts of Ireland to that degree of tranquillity, ( that they could expect either the elections to be free, or property secure. He should state his reasons for opposing the Reform Bill. The anti , reformers had been called the oligarchy. Now, he opposed the bill because it would create a fearful oligarchy in the lower and middle classes—placing the wealthy and - intelligent under the unlimited controul of the indigent and uninstructed . Loud cries of bear, hear.) In saying this, he must not be und erstood to wish to deprive the lower orders of their just share of influence. The hon. member Ifor Preston had protested against the disfranchisement of the electors of Preston. He could assure him that he was as as averse as himself to disfranchise electors because they were poor. His opinions might be bumble and insignificant, but they had never been inconsistent. He had given in the course of his political life two votes on reform, in the year 1797, when he bad opposed a measure similar to the present , an d on I the occasion of the motion of the member for Tavistoek, when he sup. ported his motion for extending the elective franchise to the large towns. lie was still ready to support a similar motion, not only with respect to England, but Ireland and Scotland also. This might be called a sham reform, but the fear of unpopularity would not nuke him go farther than what he thought was for the true interest of the country. He could no: consent to destroy the constitution, to deprive the two great interests of the empire, the agricultural and colonial, of their jut and sa lutary share in the administration. After 36 years of representation, he should go down to his constituents confident that there wu no one act of his public life to which he could not challenge their scrutiny—a confidence he would not have possessed if he had, under the fear of a general election, compromised his principles, and, because it might have pleased the multitude, supported that of which he did not ap prove.--(Hear.) Sir J. NEWPORT said, the Right Hon. Member bad not said one word relative to the question before the house. He said he was opposed to disfranchisement ; yet, had he not supported, in 1800, the almost total disfranchisement of I reland ? Sir R. PEEL considered that his right hon. friend, and all those who had not delivered their opinions on the great question of teform, were justified in doing so on this, apparently, the last occasion. He inferred, from the silence of the noble lord, when questioned as to the intentions ' of government bad resolved to risk an has e al &seriment which he thought at the present time, was fraught with and danger. He would not have expected them to have taken this decision on the success of the resolution they had lately come to. He (Sir Robert Peel) had supported that resolution, because, even were reform necessary, it was right to maintain the proportion of representatives existing antecedently to the Union. This was the principle followed by Lord Grey when, at the period of the Union, he then advocated a reduction of members, and Proposed to cut of, deduct, the total number of England and , and to allot to Ireland 85 members instead of 100.—(Hear.) — It was on this principle alone that he (Sir It. Peel) had supported the resolution. He did not intend to say that ministers were not expecting further opposition ; or that he (Sir R. Peel) would have been content with the amendment of the committee. He was opposed to the bill altogether; and even if be thought reform necessary, such a mea sure should have been brought forward in times more calm than the present—he should have voted against the bill on the third reading.— (Cheers.).—But to withdraw the bill in consequence of a resolution net to reduce the English members, when the appeal lay to the Eng lish people, seemed to him strangely impolitic.—(C h eers.)—There was no justifiable grounds for • dissolutioa. However necessary ministers might consider their bill, it was not of such immediate seas sity as to make it impossible to delay its consideration. He felt that that delay was advisable. The Bill had been brought forward at a time of excitement, when those who brought it forward shared in the ex citement. (No, no.) Let them look at the language of a publication supposed to represent the opinions of many of the Ministers. Let theml rmd the Edinburgh Review, published in Autumn last, and the refs ference made to " the beautiful days of Paris." (Hear, hear.) Was he not justified, if the general impression respecting the author of that article was correct, in raying that those who brought forward the Bill shared in the excitement? ( Hear.) He denied that the Bill had met with universal approbation. Was the voice of wealth and education in its favour ? Were the opinions expressed at the county meetings unani mous ? (Cheers.) Ministers, they were told, were afraid of keeping alive the excitement. It would die of itself; it had died before.— (Hear.) He had heard complaints of indifference of the people to reform, after greater excitement than at present. (Hear.) The actual excite ment was the consequence of foreign revolutions, and after the result of those revolutions, and the salutary lesson they afforded, he felt with confidence that it would die away. But what would be the bcaring of the dissolution on the affairs of Ireland The extraordinary measures which the state of Ireland seemed to require, how could they be resorted to if a dissolution took place ? He rejoiced if government was 'stifled that their measures were not necessary. But were the public papers to be credited, the state of the western parts of Ireland was such as none could contemplate without dismay. Would not the excite ment of a general election, under the present circumstances, add fearfully to that state of agitation ? They had seen at the flare election what a military force bad been in array. But there was nothing political in these disorders. If they arose from the permanent state of ;society in Ireland, from the relations between Imam' and tenant, then no remedy was to be hoped for from general reform. rhoe (Cheers.) s themselves Ministers took upon a heavy responsibility. powers with which they were at present armed, by which they were enabled to suppress illegal associations, expired at the end of the session. Thus the dissolution created not only fresh causes of excitement, not only it precluded the executive from appealing to parliament to strengthen its powers, but it dispossessed it of those powers which it now possessed, and which it bad been lately called on to exercise. He pro. ceeded to animadvert on the dissolution of a parliament which had been as sanbled for only nine months, and bad not had time to pass any measure of publicutility. He should read here a resolution recorded in the journals of the house, which had been moved by the present Premier, and protested against the dissolution of Parliament in 1807. The resolution (which he read amidst cheers) declared that Ministers had been guilty of manifest misconduct for advising a dissolution of Parliament a few months after its meeting for the dispatch of urgent public and private business, without any urgent necessity, and at a time when it would create the greatest excitement amongst the people. Fur these reasons he protested against the contemplated measure of dissolution, and thought the Go. velment that should reso-t to it incurred • responsibility greater than any government had ever incurred before (bear.) Mr. STANLEY said, he should say nothing on the question of dissolution, on which he had no authority to make any statement ; he merely rose to point out the very different circumstances under which the Noble Lord, now at the head of the Government, moved the resolution quoted by the Right Hon. Baronet, and that of the Right Hon. Baronet at present. At the time that noble lord moved his resolutions, the dissolution had taken place, and Ministers were prepared to defend the measure they had advised. At present, no dissolution was announced, and the Right Honorable Baronet made his attack on Ministers when he knew that their lips were sealed. —(Heat. bear.) Mr. BROWNLOW said hr could not feel surprise at ming the an. doubted privilege of the crown brought into insation by the boa. gent. on the other side. (Cries of No, hour the - -) He had hard every gentleman who spoke on the ether eiliesthavour aa moth as In his power to deter ministers from advising the Dag to exercise his Rs. doubted prerogative. (Hear, bear.) Ho was net a little surprised to find those who declared that the impend Wla was both MM. stilsidonal and unpopular, so very much afraid to go before the people. (Hear, bear.) In the first speech the right hon. baronet Mode on the question, he said—" I am not afraid to go before my con. stituents, but I will go with your bill in my hand." Now the occa. sion was come when be and his friends could go before their matt. tuents and take the bill in their hands, and they all appeared to dread the encounter. There was nothing to apprehend from the House going before the people of England, and there was quite as little to fear front ping before the people of Ireland. If the English people found fault with Irish members, for voting against continuing the present number of Regllsh members, they should tecoUeet that it was to the Irish members they owed that the bill was brought to its present state ; and in dickey. nerosity they would not refuse to Ireland an addition of five members._ It was said that Ireland was in a state of excitement :—there was, Calmly, great distress in Ireland ; that subject was under discussion th e seer night, and no man was found to say that there was any political ,onsleement at present in Ireland. The King's Representative travelled tom one end of Ireland to the other without a guard, and in perfect safety. (Hear.) The state of Ireland should not be made a stumbling block in the way of the present measure. (Hear.) He had seen Coi l . tested elections peaceably conducted, when thne was a strong religious eseitement that might be called a religious war; that feeling wa s happily now at an end,—the whole people looked to this measure as a great boon to civil liberty, and a pledge for the future good govern. ment of the country. (Hear.) The Ministers need have no apprehen sion of going before the people of Ireland, foe thae the bill would meet with the unanimous approbation to which it was so well en. titled. (Hear.) Mr. WISE said he had heard with astonishment the armments of the right hon. member against going before the people. Looking at the opinion of the people of England, as expressed by their petitions to the house, they were more unanimous in support of the measure than on any former occasion. (Hear, hear, bear.) In Ireland there was no political excitement—they were bound together for improved government, of which this bill gave them the hope. (Hear, hear, hear.) —The exci tement in Galway and Clare arose from distress and the state of the relation between landlord and tenant; but there was no danger of any political excitement. The conduct of government of late had been moderate and tranquillising. Much had been said of the influence of the honourable member for Waterford in Ireland. That influence was certainly great t but it was mal-administration gave that influence, and good government would render its exercise unnecessary. (hear.) He hoped Government would not be deterred from appealing to the people. There was no danger of such scenes as bad taken place in France. We had an aristocracy that lived with the people, and were respected by the people, and it was only from the refuel of reform that revolution was to be apprehended (hear.) Mr. O'CONNELL said he only rose to reply to the right ' honourable Baronet's observation respecting the election for Clare, where he said it was necessary to send for troops. It was true troops were sent, and he did blame the measure of precaution ; but k was equally true that no elector required their protection; and that no in. jury was done to any elector. He wlahed to see a dissolution, because it would give a hope to the people of Ireland, that those by whom they had been so long misgoverned would never return to power. Another mama for wishing for dissolution was, that it gave so much uneasiness M the hen gentlemen around him. (Cheep and laughter.) He thought wham those who opposed Reform were so terrified at dissolution, that It must he a good thing. (A laugh.) They said they wished to preserve the full number of English Members, w hich, being translated, meant preserving the rotten boroughs. (Hear, hear.) There never was a greater fallacy than that preserving the rotten boroughs was preserving the English Members. (Hear.) He would not like to see an Irish man, with the original taint of popery upon him, skiing for one of those boroughs. (Cheers and laughter.) They were ailed to delay the dis solution ; but If they did, what pledge would they give the people of England that they ever meant to reform ? They had but one way to proceed, to advise the King, God bless him, to appeal to the people. He need not be afraid of the people of England, and in Ireland all would be tranquillity. If they appealed to Ireland, the b 9 members who voted for the reform bill would be increased to 80, the largest number of Irish members that supported any minister. The right honourable member for Kerry said that in 1797 he voted against Reform in Ireland. There were historical recollections connected with the rejection of reform at that time which he was surprised the right hon. gentleman should revive. The greatest men in Ireland made an effort at that period to obtain a reform which they saw was reesesary for the tranquillity of the country. Grattan, the father of the Constitution—Ponsonby, who was afterwards Lord Chancellor—Curran, ohs ended his days in the obscurity of Muter of the Rolls, foe it was obscurity for him—all united in the effort to obtain a reform. It was rejected with scorn, and the next year there was a rebellion. (Hear, hear.) Give reform, and there was nothing to fear—if it were refused , be would be a bold man who would say what would take place. (Hear, hear, bear.) They might taunt the Belgians and the three beautiful Can of France. (Hear, hear.) The Monarch of France at. tempted to destroy the representative system, and to extinguish the press—the people refused to be trodden down, Ind gloriously vindicated their rights. (Hear.) There was no danger of such an attempt being made in this country while the present family sat on the throne—cer tainly not while the present good King wore the crown. (Hear, bear.) But suppose an ordinance were issued to turn England into one rotten borough, like Scotland, would the people of England lie down in base submission ? They would belie their ancestors if they did— (Hear, hear.) The people of England were full of hope from the pre sent measure—give their hope the legitimate channel for their expres sion, and they have nothing to fear. You are at issue with the bo. roughmoogers—appeal with confidence to the people—say to the people of England we arraign the botoughmongers, you are to judge between us—you are to say whether you will have the boroughmongering sys. tem, or a free constitution. (The honourable gentleman sat down amidst the loudest cheering.) LortINORREYS said he had been amongst his constituents since the bill was introduced, and be found all the people of property dis. approved of It. (Hear, hear.) It afforded no protection to the agricul. tural interest, and would soon be productive of general distress. Had ministers broughtlt o :s et rlan of moderate reform no man would have ventured to have op it; but they had brought forward the present measure for the sake of popularity. (Hear.) Dr. LUSHINOTON said, it would certainly be for the minis ters, who advised a dissolu tion of Parliament so soon after its election, to justify the measure. He agreed perfectly with the resolutions moved in condemnation of that measure In 1807, for, on that ocean." the torch of religious discord bad been lighted, and the dissolution had been resorted to for the purpose of adding to the Same. The right honourable baronet said the =MUM might be postponed; on that point he was at Issue with the right honourable baronet. lie thought nothing could be more dangerous than to delay the present question. The right booourable baronet said wait till the recollection of the throe days of Paris are passed away, sad then will be the time to come to the declaim of this questloa. In his con science, he believed if they waited till then, they would wait till all history was forgotten. (Hear, hear.) If he were a Frenchman, be should blush for the victories of Louis ate Fourteenth—he should re gard the victories of Bonaparte with sorrow; but he should glory la the three days of Paris. (Hear, hear.) And who advised this delay ? Those who had constantly been the opponents of all reform, but sub now all said they were all friends of reform, but not of the present measure. (Hear, hear.) M. G. PRTCE said, be was addressing the Speaker probably foe the bat time. (Cheers and laughter.) They had heard of the throe Oakes days of France—a wretched people—now the slaves of des potism, and now of anarchy. (Laughter.) The epitaph written on this Parliament would be---" This Parliament was dissolved for in in dependence in support of the Constitution." (Cheers and laughter.).— Serious and awful was the state of the country—they stood in the eleventh hour of the Constitution. (Great laughter.) If this Bill • a greater change would take place than a change of dynasty.— should first divest man of his selfishness; and when they had him an angel, they might then pass the present Bill. (Cheat laughter) Sir THOMAS ACKLAND was not afraid to meet his masitatents, though he had voted against diminishing the number of English Man. bees. He was a young reformer,aod felt some alarm at the great change contemplated by the present bill. He believed it was not expected that it would contain so great a change. If the Reform Bill were brought forward io the next parliament, he trusted that the house would be more freely, fully and amicably admitted into the councils of Minima» than that house on the measure (hear) ; at all events, hehoped theywould am say that they would have the bill, the whole bill, and nothing bet the bill. He had voted for the second reading, because he approved of the principle of the bill; and he thought that any reform which the Ministers might have been able to obtain, would be a great vinery: but in voting foe the second reading, however, he had never contemplated defeating the bill. He was aware, that if he had any weight in that house, it was in consequence of the respectable constituency whose repre sentative he was ; but be had been led to believe, that by the vote he might give, he should expose himself to much disfavour l and run the risk of depriving himself of that support which might be very soon - quired. If that were the case, he had only to rely on the aw ing balance; that having se= the probable consequence or' still persevered in performing, what he must say, and bet words he should utter in that house, his duty alias sincerity. Mr. J. JOHNSTONE sOis ; bat is comanuilles from under the gallery, and the great aelss is um be =collect on what side he spoke, azapt that , side of the boas. Mr. FY LEE nose amidst loud aim of " thesis might be allowed to Mats a few wards. Ho had bli hostas* be wished to get rid of the rotten boroughs , base dins of lorAos the bill go into the committee ma somilations arid iwlavaikes. (Hear.) His arostituents beta Aspired of pdviligas by the bill, but they wen r them for_ tho pad hawk (Hoar.) Mr. BABMO &dosed, that ha ever had boss a Maim the list MI you he bad eepbi poeeed every plan ham. The ashen plsgmm ni by the , hews or,lse f Ho was ready to milord that it was not—as the the NUM of the o.lld4atiOD that the Hours of k "the maim imago of the pimple." He felt animal ;be be verb soon . '" re. y on the countervail- acme of his vote ' be M they might be the ty with the most as- mom of his speaking as house, it was im• that be spoke on the NNW," and begged Is bad supported the on& ; sod be had ittee unfettered with shunts wooki have were ready to resign a moderato reformer. Pm of an dellite vt. he could sot ve. ed— of = sbowappr oa rms 'Mold be Ind this the If , 1 , I.: : 1 'I ' 0 _ itil E P