Star. — London, England, 1821-04-17 00:00:00

= a the Protestants. His objection was not against the individuals, but against the religion itself. He doubted their ability to perform their promises. The Catholic Church declared that all others were here tical, and were out of the pale of salvation. It de 'elated that every compact with others, which inter fered with the interest of the Church was, ipso facto, void. These were the tenets of the Catholic Church, at least they had been attributed to it, and not de nied. They said the Pope was the Head of the Church, and we said the King was the Head; and no doubt could arise as to which would be preferred by the Protestant, and which by the Catholic. Tire Influence of the Catholic Clergy might be shewn in a single instance. Between the years 1789 and 1795, a Declaration was prepared and signed by many of the principal Catholics, in terms which no doubt Would be satisfactory to every l'rotestant. A Letter, however, was published by authority, forbidding the su bscribers from interfering in the spiritual matters of the Catholic Church; and, in obedience to that Let ter, the Declaration was withdrawn ; and there was no reason to doubt that the same circumstance would occur again, while the present doctrines were main tained ; and he therefore conceived that we were bound by self-preservation to withhold that share of political power which it was proposed by the present Bill to concede to the Catholics . This objectio n , h e thought, could riot be answered; he was sure that as yet it had not been answered. His next. argument was founded upon our Constitutional principles, as they were established at the glorious Revolution. The King must be a Protestant, and even his writ of summons to their Lordships must declare that they were sum moned to deliberate upon matters for the security of the Church and State; and every Clergyman, upon being ordained, declared that no foreign power could legally be exercised within the realm—(Hear, hear.) He intreated their Lordships to remember that Pro testantism was the key-stone which bound the edifice of the Constitution. If they passed this 13111, they, in his opinion, would surrender all the advantages which had been gained by their ancestors at the expense of their blood—(Hear, hear.)—The King swore to main tain die Protestant Establishment inviolate; and how could he i:o so if this Bill passed into a law? He hoped their Lordships would, in their candour, allow him to observe, in justice to the illustrious dead, who, for the last too hundred years had sat in those seats which their Lordships now occupied, that they would not, during that long period, have continued to re fuse to grant a greater degree of civil liberty to the Roman Catholics, unless in their consummate wisdom they had thought they were unfit to enjoy it. In con clusion, Ire would state, that it was his anxious hope and prayer that the vote of their Lordships that night would put an end to the agitation which must be pro duced by a recurrence of the discussion of this sub ject in future times; and that their Lordships would slew their determination not to open a door to mea sures tending to endanger the security of the Protest ant ascendancy in this country—(Hear, hear). The Bishop of NORWICH then addressed the House, but in so low a tone of voice that the greater part of his speech was inaudible below the Bar. He assured their Lordships that he was rio party man, and that he did push himself forward upon this oc casion from temporal views ; and indeed, humanly speaking, that might be the last time he should have an opportunity of addressing them. He inveighW against the illiberal policy of refusing the Roman Catholics what they at present claimed. He was sure that such a mode of conduct could not be in Unison with the dictates of the Established Church of this country, which was neither harsh, severe, nor uncharitable in its attributes. Oh the &build of justice, the Catholics were entitled to what they claimed, as good subjects, if no crime could be proved against them. He was convinced that those who ° l :posed this measure were not acting in con sonance with the best interests oldie Church of Eng land ; for it was only placing it in a very suspicidus point of view to tell the world that it required to be supported by measures of disabilities and penalties. No one could be a more strenuous advocate for the Established Church than himself; but he was satis fied that leaving the Clergy to themselves would do more than any law to render their doctrines respected. Lord REDESDALE considered that they had a right, in viewing the question, to look at it in a po litical light, and to adopt the experience of preceding times. What weighed most with him against the Roman Catholic religion, and which he thought the most danger was to be feared from was, that no man of that religion had complete possession of his con science —( Hear, hear).—This Bill provided that the Protestant Succession to the Throne, and the ascend ancy cif the Protestant Church Establishment, should be maintained, while its enactments went directly to undermine them. Amongst other provisions of this Bill, one was to regulate the correspondence with the See of Rome, thereby recognising by an Act of the Legislature, that which was declared by the laws to be illegal. They would not repeal those laws, but by a side wind completely rendered the Roman Catholic Church an Established Church in this king dom. The Bill passed by the Act of the first of Elizabeth, declared the extinction for ever of all foreign ascendancy, spiritual as well as temporal, since it went to enact, that the spiritual power of the Pope should not be obeyed in this country.) This Dynasty succeeded to this Throne from their prude-, cessors not having been of the Protestant religion.-- But the present Bill held the exclusion of Catholics abominable, and was as much as telling the Sove reign to dethrone himself, as he sat on his Throne Upon false principles. It did appear to him, that in' adopting the second reading of this Bill, they would be going in contradiction to the principles upon which' the Throne and the Protestant Church were esta blished. By continued applications, the Roman Ca tholics bad gained more and more and they would not stop even w ere th e y to ga i n this. Ireland held hierarchy ready cut and dry, arid her Archbishops, Sthops, Deacons, and Chapters, were all ready to enter upon possession; and take the field on a different foot ing from this country. Under these circumstances, the Noble Lord declared, that it was impossible for bin to support this Bill. The Earl of HARROWBY declared himself fa vourable to the Bill before the House. Could he feel perstradtd of the reality of the dangers said to threaten the Church in the event of this measure being car ried, he assured their Lordships that whatever hopes he might entertain of conciliaring by it a por tinnr of his f ellow - subjects, and of making a valuable asidi- iion to the State, he would at once not only rote for the second reading of, the Bill that day six months, l but reject the principle of it altogether. At the same time it would be as well to look at the consequences which threatened the putting a negative on that mea sure; and it certainly could not be of small import ance to get rid of every danger which threatened them. The principle of this Bill was to grant to the Roman Catholic subjects of his Majesty whatever could securely be granted to them ; and the provi sions, in his opinion, fully satisfied the principle.— He had heard no argument used on the present occa sion, in opposition to the measure, which had not been urged before, and the chief instrument seemed to be an exhibition of the acts of tyranny and .usur pation which disgraced former periods Of the history of the Roman Catholic Chinch. Its intolerant doc trine, that there was no salvation nut of the pale of that Church, was purposely held up to view. But if that were all that could be urged against it, he would ask whether the most tolerant of all Churches could be exempted from that charge? Could even the Presbyterian Church —(Hear, hear).— The Noble Lord referred to former parts of the history of Scot land to support the negative or this proposition.— During the discussions in the Scotch Parliament, re lative to the Union of the two Countries, a solemn Protest was sent by that Church to their Parliament, against so much of the Union which might make them or their country parties to the toleration of Episcopacy in another country. This they declared they desired to amid for fear of the guilt of the same. The Parliament of England at that time did not he skate to receive within itself 16 Presbyterian Peers and 45 Commoners, without fear for the conse 7 quences. The English Ecclesiastics, on the other hand, declared, that if they should live to see that Union, they should have outlived all the laws, l and the whole Brit,jsh Constitution—(Hear, hear). — The result, however, had proved otherwise, and had he not a right to suppose that the results of the pre sent measure would be equally tha reverse of what its opponents apprehended? He had made it part of his duty to make inquiry as to the number of Catho lic Members likely to find their way into Parliament by the operation of this Bill, and he found that the greatest number that could be returned was 14 or 15, and probably not more than five or sir. Now, it was impossible, except for those who conjured up phantoms of the imagination, seriously to apprehend that a Protestant Parliament could he influenced by that number. He did not agree with the Noble Lord who spoke last, in thinking the Throne would be at all endangered by this measure; and he was sure that they were not at all called upon to concede the Protestant Succession to the Crown, because they conceded other points.. Were they to refuse to en tertain the Bill, it would be tantamount to a gift to every Catholic Barrister of a perpetual retainer for sedition. Ile hoped their Lordships would not deter mine on giving a hasty vote against this measure, and that they would allow it to have the fullest pos sible consideration. Here there was a loud call for adjournment. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he should be sorry if any individual in or out of that House should go away with an impression, that it was not intended to give this question the fullest possible discussion.-- Therefore he should move the adjournment of the debate.—The debate was accordingly adjourned, and the House broke up at One u'Clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. A new Writ was ordered to be issued for the election of a Burgess to serve in Parliament for the Borough of Orford, in the room of J. DOUGLAS, Esq. who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds. Mr. S. WHITBREAD presented a Petition, praying for Parliamentary Reform, from certain Freeholders of the County of Middlesex. blr. Serjeant ONSLOW brought in his Bill for repealing the Usury Laws. Mr. DAVENPORT expressed his intention of opposing the Bill. After a few words from Sir R. Helton, Mr. Serjeant ONsi.ow, and Mr. Baanoi, the Bill was read a first time, and ordered for a second reading on the 14th of May. General HART presented a Petition from certain Inhabit ants of the County of Donegal, praying for the licensing of small stills, as being the only means of providing a market for their corn, and relieving the distress under which they laboured.— The Petition was ordered to be printed. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR gave notice of a motion for Wednes day, the :,oth May, to take into consideration the mode of admi nistering the Laws in the Hist/ Court of Chancery in England, and also the regulation of the proceedings in cases of Appeal. Mr. T. WILSON moved for a Return of all Importations of Hides and other produce from Russia within the last year.— Ordered. Mr. SYKES presented a Petition from the Merchants and others of the Town of Hull, praying for a repeal of the Wool Tax. Ile would not go into the question at present, ai•the ap proaching motion of a Noble Friend of his for repealing the T.sx, would give him a more fit opportunity for doing so. He considered the Tax to be injurious to all parties. Mr. LAMBTON presented a Petition from certain inhabi tants of the Town of Belfast, in Ireland, stating that a general impression, most injurious to the character of the House pre vailed among the people in consequence of the faulty state of the Representation. As an instance of the undue manner in which Members were returned, they said that the Corporation of their own town, in which body twelve individuals claimed all autho- rity to thews:Nes, sent a Noble Lord to the House contrary to the wishes of the inhabitants. They prayed for Reform, and the restoration of the Queen to all her rights and privileges. The Hon. Member proceeded to state, that the Mayor had declined calling the Meeting at which the Petition was agreed to. He than went on to comment generally on the grievances of Ireland, and adverting to the indifference with which, he said, the Peti tions of the people were treated, he expressed his hope that the lkht Hon. Gentleman in the Chair would address the House on the necessity of more attention being paid to the sentiments of the people constitutionally declared. He thought that such an address wouldslse attended with very good effect. Mr. CHICII ESTER said that the Petition was adopted at a Meeting held at a small Methodist Chapel In the suburbs of the town, at the same time whets an Address was agreed upon to the Queen. Ile was confident, from his knowledge of those inhabitants of Belfast who were conspicuous for property, edu• cation, and general respectability, that the Petition did not speak the opinions of that town. Mr. LA MwroN read an account of the Meeting from a Bel fast Newspaper, and said that it was held in consequence of a Requisition signed by 100 of the Merchants and Shopkeepers of the town. Mr. CHICHESTER disclaimed having reflected upon the characters of the Petitioners ; he meant to say that they were not persons who expressed the general sense of the most re spectable inhabitants of Belfast. The Petition was read, and ordered to be printed. Mr. ELLICE presented a Petition from certain Merchants of London trading to Canada, against the Duties imposed by the Bills now passing the Legislature, upon the Timber of that coun try. The Petitioners furth•:r complained of the Duties upon Canadian Corn, and prayed that alt.!rations might be made so as to.allow of the importation of that Corn without restrictions. If this were not done, to what a note must these Colonies be re duced. Their entire ruin must be the consequence, as, by the laws of navigation, their produce could not be imported into any other countries. hit ISAAC COFFIN contended that it was impolitic tcfrc- ,~„1 ; .~: • Vto Min the Canadas, at they must always be attended with Bunch greater expense than advantage to this country. Lord MILTON thought, that in due respect to the House,. some one or other of the Ministers. hught to have been in the House at an earlier period of the eiening. Ile expressed his anxiety for the Report of the Committee upon A,grictilture noy, sitting up stairs. He wished that the subjects submitted to that Committee should be reported upon separately, as they came under its consideration. If this were not done, he very much feared that the House would have no Report until very Lite in the Session. He wished to inquire whether such Was the inter. don of the Committee? Mr. GOOCH said, that all ,Chairman cf the Agricultur3l Committee, he could not at present say, as the Committee had come to no decision, at what time their Report could be made•. It was his belief, however, that it might be soon after the Easter Holidays. Mr. MARRY ATT agreed with what had fallen from his Hon. Friend (Mr. FJlice), as to the restrictions laid upon Cana dian Corn, and said that the subject ought to be taken into the consideration of the House as soon as possible. Mr. G. BENNETT spoke against the prayer of the Petition. He called upon Country Gentlemen nut to be so besotted and stupid as to be led by the nose by a set of Merchants who c.tme down to that House with these Petitions, and endeavoured to persuade it to impose a tax of .C4oo,tm upon the country. Mr. MAILRYATI' disclaimed having any interest in the timber trade of Canada. Mr. ELLICE, after the Petition was read, moved tint it be referred to the Agricultural Committee. Sir E. ENATCIIBULL suggested that the Petition might' delay the Committee to the great inconvenience of the parties whose interests were under its consideration. After a few words from Mr. Ecucc, the Petition was referred to the Committee. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW moved the second reading of the Attorney and Solicitors' Admission Bill. The Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on the 4th of May. The Regulation of Acceptances to Bills of Exchequer Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on the 4th of May. Sir THOMAS BA RING wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), whether Mr. Ser jeant Praed was about to retire from his situation as head of the Audit Office, and whether any appointment in his stead had been made, or was in contemplation ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Gentleman alluded to by the Honourable Member had resigned his situation. He was rot aware of any appointment having been matte. TIMBER DUTIES. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee on the Timber Duties Bill. Mr. J. P. GRANT rose to propose an Amendment to the motion. His object was to more for a Select . Committee, with the view that the subject might be reconsidered in all its details. The proposition for the House to decide upon was, whether a sum, far exceeding £600,000, was to be taken out of the pockets of the Public, for no public advantage what ' ever. The measure now proposed, would compel the purchaser to go to a dear market for timber of an inferior quality ; whereas excellent timber might be bought infinitely cheaper elsewhere. He looked upon the timber trade as one of great importance-- there was nothing into which that article did not enter, from the palace of the Noble to the hut of the peasant. Numerous Petitions had been presented to the House, all of which complained that the re strictions upon trade were at the bottom of the dis tresses of the country : and he would assert, that no thing could result from those laws but a violation of every principle of political economy—of every just principle of commercial regulation. All the evi dence they had before them, agreed that the timber produced no benefits to the Proprietor ; the value of an acre of land (in Canada) being only from one to two dollars; so that the whole value of an acre of timber fluctuated from 45.6 d. to 9s.—consequently the produce was of little consequence to the lord of the soil. The difference on the importation of '200,000 loads of timber from Canada or Norway, would be exactly £350,000, and this the Right Honourable Gentle man proposed to give up, for to that did it amount. What, he asked, would be said to that? What would be said to contributing £160,000 annually to Russia, because we prefer her to Norway ? What had Nor way or Russia done to entitle the latter to that pre ference—that £160,000 should be paid out of the pockets of this country to Russia? Ile would now come to the question of the Shipping Interest. Could any man say there was good policy in, forcing into employment a greater portion of shipping than could Ibe always maintained in it? He would say it were better those old transports engaged in the timber trade, and which were unfit for any other, should be broken up, or sunk, than that the shipping should be dereased beyond its natural quantity. The Ho nourable Gentleman again contended against the proposed sacrifice of £160,000 a-year to Russia, and of £460,000 per annum to Canada—this would have the effect of making the country pay 50 per cent. more for Russiaji and Plussian timber than for that of Norway, thus paying £600,000 per annum, over and above its other heavy taxes. To the Russian, Prussian, and Norway Gentlemen amicably arrang ing their profits, he had no other objection than that we were to pay them—( Hear). The Honourable Gentleman concluded by moving, that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider further the Duties on Timber. . The SPEAK ER put the question, on which, Mr. WALLACE rose and said, he rejoiced in an opportunity of saying a few words upon the proposi tion which he had originated. Notwithstanding all that had been said, he did not feel himself bound to consider merely the interests of the consumer of timber—he had other, and paramount interests to consider. The Hon. Gentleman here entered into some of the details of the former Report on the sub ject. With respect to the Shipping Interest, he hoped it would always be (within certain limits) a part of the policy of this country to protect it—(ffear, hear) —and contended, that foreign vessels should not be employed in preference to British, merely because the former could be had a little cheaper, to the sacrifice of the Shipping Interest, on which, in certain circum stances, occurrences and situations so much depended. He admitted that the Hon. Gentleman might be right on the item of £160,000 per annum, but he would maintain that no loss accrued to the country therefrom, and that the £450,000 given to the importers of North American timber would be saved to the country, by the spirit of competition which it would produce.— The Honourable Gentleman entered into a compara tive view and statement .of prices of, and duties.on, timber, since the year 1302, and contended for the beneficial effects likely to be produced by protecting duties, and of consequent competition. Having pro tected the producer hitherto, we were bound to con ' tinue to protect him. He contended that the Honour able Gentleman's proposal to lay the duty upon cu bical contents would give a complete monopoly to Norway, to the exclusion of other timber; it would • raise the duty on the 13tter from £22 to .00, While ~,:.,.. ~ ' ®,:sty :—~ ,~ _.,~ . . . . . it *oilid - rechtee that on 'l'citlrfti from Oei to 0141 thus making a difference of I:10 in the long hundred; With respect to the Honourable Gentleman's prcrpo sition, that we were first of all to raise ilia duty on • Ole cuSical contents, forthe protection of the home sawyerc, there was little conistency- itrpreferring it to the interest of the colony. The Honourable tleman did enough to violate his own principle, but not enough to effectuate his pi opositior. If we had an object in •protcct;ng sawyers, *nil that the people ought to pay for that latrro,e, let ns do it ctsnsiitentlyl but the number of persons employed in the saw-mills of Scotland was very small—indeed, these were but four mills in the country. and the greatest number of men at present employed in any of them was the greatest number never exceeded twelve. With re4pect to the protecting duties, all the witnesses exa mined, save one, .;fated that not less dran thirty shil lings would be a protection, and that ant believed twenty-five shillings would be sufficient. Mr. W. SMITH thought that the details of this subject should be settled in a Committee up stairs before it was brought forward in that House for dis cussion. He concluded by giving his support to the Amendment of his lion. Friend (Mr. Grant). M A 111tYArl opposed the Amendment of Mr. Grant, and spoke in favour of the original Motion. Mr. ItICARDO declared his resolution to support the Amendment. Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS wished that some imme diate arrangement should take place which would establish a competition between the trades of the two differint qtiorters. lie differed from the views of his Itight Hon. Friend (Mr. Wallace), and those of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite. He would propose an Amendment in the Committee, the object of which would be to produce an equal competition between the two quarters alluded to. Mr. GLADSTONE expressed his concurrence in the view of this subject taken by the Committee up stairs, and recommended the House to adopt the principle which they suggested to the House to act upon. He concluded by giving his assent to the original Motion. Mr. BENNETT would recommend the House to receive with great caution, the advice of Gentlemen immediately interested in the trade. The interest of the consumer alone was never once attended to. He dwelt for-some time on the impolicy and injustice of keeping up a restrictive system, the object of which was to put money into the pockets of the ship-owner s. He considered that the real object of the Committee was, whatever they might profess, to favour the Rus sian interest; and he believed that, if the People of England were consulted upon the subject, the last in terest which they would be willing to countenance was that of the canting, hypocritical, base, bloodthirsty, and bloodstained Government of Russia !—(hear). The Amendment was then put and negatt% ed; and the original question being carried, the House resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill. Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS postponed to a future occasion the Amendment, which he had stated he would propose in the Committee. The House having resumed—alter a few words from Mr. BENNETT and Mr. WALLACE, the Report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow. Mr. B. BATHURST, alluding to a notice of mo tion of an Honourable Member opposite, which stood for Wednesday next, begged to suggest, that as some information might be given on the subject, it would be proper to postpone it. Mr. BUXTON said, in consideration of the pro mised information, he would postpone his motion. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY-ARMY ESTIMATES. The House went into a Committee of Supply. Lord PALMERSTON moved that a sum not ex ceeding £5614 be granted to defray the expenses of the Army Medical Board. _ _ _ _ Colonel DAVIES did not think so large a grant ne cessary, and entered into some statements in order to justify his opinion. Ile moved that the above sum be reduced to the sum of 1:4414. Lord PALMERSTON justified, by adverting to various details of the duties of the Officers connected with this department, the extent of the grant which he proposed. Mr. HUME moved an Amendment reducing the sum, which was negatived, after a few words front LOl'd PALMERSTON and Mr. BENNETT, and the ori ginal motion agreed to. The next vote proposed was £10,517 18s. 9d. al: lowance for Officers serving in Public Departments in Ireland. Mr. HUME complained of the great expense of the Staff in Ireland, aid moved that the vote be re duced to 1:7,0(X). The was one item which he thought particularly objectionable, it was that which related to the Medical Staff in Iceland. Many of the Medical Officers there, who received pensions, had never-seen any service, and some of them had large allowances from other public establiddnents. Lord PALMERSTON said that the vote proposed included a provision for a great number of persons o such as Clerks, Secretaries, &c. It was very true that the principal Medical Officers on the Srhfr in Ireland had not been on fin cign service, and the reason wasi because there was a regulation exempting them from the liability of leaving the country. Sir H. PARNELL objected to the syfem upon which the Medical Staff in Ireland was conducted. Mr. BENNETT said, that the expense of the Medi. cat Staff in Ireland was enormous. It was beyond all limits of moderation. The Hon. Member then proceeded to animadvert on the disposition which he said prevailed among many Members of the House to support any measure of the Minister, however in jurious to the interests of the People. The house of Commons had entirely neglected its duty, while the Ministers of the Crown evinced some inclination to accede to the wishes of the numerous classes who had petitioned the House for relief. A House of Commons so neglecting its duty, was no longer a blessing but a curse. The CH AIRMAN here called the Hon. Member to order, and expressed his hope that the lion. Member would desist from ob s ervations which could not be agreeable to the feelings of any Honourable Gentle man present. Lord MILTON contended, that the question of order did not depend on what was, or what was not grateful to the feelings of any lion. Member. Lord PALMERSTON then observed, that the in clination to retrenchment evinced by his Majesty's Government was not the consequence of any exer tions made by the Hon. Member who had last ad. ~.. . . - .tiir 1.• . -~. 3 •. .r •• ' Zei