Star. — London, England, 1808-01-22 00:00:00

' 1 ,7 310 1 7 . It 5 9 PARLIAItfENTARr PROCEEDINGS. ~ JANUARY 21. 140VSE OF LORDS , THURSD AY, ' ll - 6 ., • Sen n 01 . Parliament was opened this B Arch 11- The Commissioners were—the • of CANTER/WAY, the LORD CHANCELLOR, Lord -, (President of the Council) Lord AYLBesoan, o g h steward), and Lord DARTMOUTH (Lord • t h i ee o'clock the Lovas Commissioners took • sea ts; and the Commons, pursuant to message, „g attended with their SPEAKER, at the Bar, the , • Cuarccuma informed them that his MAJERTY , b een pleased to direct his Commission to certain therein named, to open the Session ;ti-which • .„ d t ty should hear read, and afterwards his mostgracious Speech. ti s omiss i on was then read by the- Clerk at Ts bl e; a fter which the Loan CHANCELLOR rend s pee ch, a cony of which has already appeared in SUL INCO2II2MIS having withdrawn, after the Speech. ma, their Lordslups retired n • unrobe. p e be? of GALLOWAY rose to move an ad.- d thanks to his Majesty, for the speech that had, read. The tenor of that speech he trusted. • . mist the perfect concurrence of their Lord •l Be repeated, that his habits disqualified. him ' • „ ding justice to the task he had undertaken ; ce amg in the indulgence of their Lordships, o dd proceed to offer a few observations .on the .' As to the first point which occurred ip Lordship would conteud'that the hostile intentions de Court of Denmark towards this country were beyond doubt, by her conduct for the last T ears. If any doubt could be entertained that was the tenor of her policy, let Noble Lords to the prepared state of her arsenals, to the im . quantity of naval stores which she had amass. which was beyond all proportion above her means her necessities, and which could' only have been netted for the purpose of being ultimately at the of the inveterate enemy of the British em . That fleet and those stores, thanks to the energy the Government, were now safe in an English ; and the danger v.hich might have resulted their being applied to purposes of French am or vengeance was consequently removed. And • respecting that vigorous measure, which blasted the projects which were forming in the North et • , it was said a difference of opinion prevailed. 'oble Lords reflect on the consequences which , 1d have inevitably followed, if Government had •,letted to obtain possession of the fleet of Den.. ? Did they consider that a naval confederacy • have been formed equal to forty sail of the eree admitting, what would have been very pre . ons, that Sweden could have mail - ailed her neu 'v!? But be would pursue this subject. The ex .ltvon *nut Copenhagen had been universally . ..roved out of that House, and he trusted that few iihin it mold be found to refuse concurring in the iblicopinioa. With respect to Portugal, it was ratifying to reflect on the means employed to with -2W the fleet of that . country from the grasp of the erny. It was gratifying to see one Court of Eu ix Prefer emigration to subjection. It was gratify-' ;prefect, that when the trade with Russia was off great a portion of the American Continent is thrown open to the commercial enterprise of is country. His Lordship lamented most sincerely t defection of Russia from the great cause of wept He regretted, as much as the warmest tes of Russian connection could possibly tie cessation of our political and commercial - , with that Power ;—but he would en ' .to reconcile himself to all the consequences these calamities. He was anxious to extract some from these events. He was anxious to see this '• independent of Russia. He wished to see articles with which she supplied us, hemp, Ras, r the other materials of our navy, cultivated in • =airy and other pares of our territories, peen ed to their production. To that part of in which Sweden was mentioned, he was t their Lordships would completely concur ' kn. All the Coetirrent, except that little was now prostrate before France. He hoped "ski king preserve her independence, and ER ; • think no exert i ons too great to uphold her. , the firmness, the unshaken fidelity to en . • which distinguished his Swedish Majesty, him to the esteem and every support this ~:ty could afford him. He trusted that British ' • would indemnify him for his losses, and that of Mdse colonies which we were under the ne of taking would be applied to that purpose. ' respect to the United States, he lamented that went should have occurred to interrupt the har. 4 4 10 necessary to both nations. He approved the' . and dignified atonement which had been made' that unauthorised act. At the same time he felt ' .lighest satisfaction in learning that it was not his' :r . l's intention to make any concession of our' , • rights to—he would not say that illiberal,' mimost prejudiced people. Great Britain' ke her stand somewhere ; and she could nut 4 es stronger or better ground than this. As to, Prorpect of immediate peace with France--of a . ' su ch as became the dignity, and - the cournialtd sitlatien of this country die confessed that he entertain but very faint hopes. There was no e;c11 the &Position or declarations' of the enemy rabsisrage Oranguine capectation of an events° . ~, ` e, nz to Europe, but en the whole " '4 O Let Noble Ikeda look to *the Official 'Paper, I ,tr of the Governm ent of France, and they ''' there fund upon what conditions it was dispels -47", k ,e Peace. A peace u pon th e i r principles se out an armed truer. We, it wits proposed,' to Proclaim our maritime principle., and the' nental confed , irary was to - propose theirs ; that Zwed !to aband on Th ose principles in one pare d, and assert .them in another. "Did ire at . 1 11 '1 r!de cow, ire Otte • r, 1 1 • • 2.„) r• - __ (S, . . • ' -" 1 :.), '''', .- 4 t . 0 •• I .', . • / --.. li AA: -, • • ._ T 1 C - , : lii t . • P l t 1 • 111 - • . ) 1 .... ''. 4, 4k- b. •06_ . -... 1 . ' . **- . • .• • e . 2>" i 1) ' ICE 41,,,,::::.........;40/ '.. 1 . ---. _ _.. ... . . . FRIDAY;..JANUAR:Y. es. tsos. wish for another peace of Amiens' Did: we wish to see the colours of the French men of war going 4 and ours consequently coming down ? He triated; no Noble Lord who heard him, no person in the country,would be found to express a wish.fur a peace of that description. Having thus animadverted, though in a very inadequate manner, upon the prin.' cipal topics• in the speech, he would. trespass no louner on. their Lordship's indulgence, but conclude with moving an Address• of Thanks to his Majesty, in which he hoped for their unanimous concurrence. The Address having been read by the LORD CHANCELLOR, and afterwards by the Clerk, Lord KENYON seconded the address. He was induced, he said, to rise upon this occasion, from the satisfaction which he had in observing, that the con duct of Ministers had corresponded throughout with that laudable energy and resolution which had in• duced them to enter upon office at a juncture of pecu liar danger and delicacy. He highly approved of the seizure of the Danish fitet, and of the firmness with one moment that any well groundecl- apprehensions 'were to be entertained from the addition of sixteen sail: i of the line to the maritime strength of the enemy. The ships were much inferior to British, French, Spanish ; but it was not ships, but men, that this country wanted. If our dangers were not increased• by the attack upon Copenhagen, those of our Ally certainly were. Did Ministers never contemplate the posAllity of that measure being retorted tipoq Powers for. which they must feel interested ? Had they no apprehension that Russia, France, and Den trtark, might t be brought to coalesce against Sweden ?- Havingbriefly touched upen.them inThe commence ment of his speech, he would not lay any further stress won the contradictory statements respecting the measures which were adopted in consequence of the result of the negotiations of Tilsit. He would have been MOM disposed to approve what they had done in the Baltic, if they had acted consistently. If, they had attacked Cronstadt, taken possession of the Russian navy, and by such an , enterprise made us the undisputed masters of that sea, such an act •would - have been consistent with the magnanimity of justice, and it was much more pra.ctivable than might be conceived. All the wars, from the ac . cession of Ring William to the present hour, in which this country was engaged, were founded upon the principles of upholding the l e aw of Na tions; and this was particularly the case with respect to the war which commenced in 1799, and which has continued with little interruption ever since. From that great principle, he could admit no deviation. He would never subscribe to that monstrous policy, by which we could be induced, because we apprehended danger from a gigantic Power, to commit an act of injustice, and follow the measures to the success of which that Power looked for universal domination.— which they resisted the attempt of Russia to impose peace upon us in the character of a mediator, after she had evinced a decided partiality for the common enema.. He regretted the failure of the embassy to Turkey ; but considered the present Ministers as not responsible for that event, though he did not mean to arraign . the policy of their predecessors, who had in volved us in hostilities with that power. He depre cated any endeavour to - excite a premature cry of peace, being convinced that Ministers vronid not omit any opportunity which should offer itself of at taining that invaluable blessing, when it couldbe pro cured in consistency with the safety and honour of the country. The Duke of NORFOLK expressed his approba tion of the manner in which the debate ha d been opened. The observations of the Noble Earl were calculated to conciliate the House ; and on all the There was one part of the Address, however, from which he could not withhold his unqualified approba tion, He could not speak in terms of adequate ap plause of the emigration of the Court of Lisbon. It was a measure which reflected immortal honour upon the Sovereign of that country, and which promised the greatest advantage to England, not immediately in deed; but ultimately. That measure, in every view which he had been able to take of it, opened the most cheering prospect to this nation. With respect to the policy observed towards America, he would not now speak. The proper time for that would be when the Orders in Council came under discussion ; but he could not refrain from expressing a.hope that Government had not adopted principles more than commensurate to the necessity of the case. He approved of the re paratipn which had been made for the rencontre with an Americ4n ship of war, as well as the Prolamation by which it was followed. The doctrine of visiting national ships was not maintainable. He would not take up any snore of their Lordships' time ; but he could not sit down without expressing his earnest hope that no opportunity would be neglected to restore to this country the blessings of peace. He would say, have peace, if you can have it with honour. For the reasons he had stated, he would support the motion made by the Noble Duke. The Earl of ABERDEEN approved of the jus tice and policy of seizing the Danish fleet. That Coverament, upon a former occasion, assigned as a reason for joining in the cenfederacy against this ffi country, that it was not in 4 state to resist e powers which required it. After such a declaration, he was surprised how any 4oble Lord could entertain an idea that Denmark could refuse to render her navy applicable to the purposes of France, which had an immense army collected on the frontiers of the most valuable part of her dominions. With respect to the policy of the orders of Council, he professed himself incompetent to give any decided opinion at present ; but it struck him that the measures would not ad mit of a partial application. The principles of our maritime rights must be universally asserted, er not at all. Lord GRENVILLE observed, that he should ill discharge his duty, if he did not offer himself to their Lordships ont p h e e ee tresent occasion. There was one Speech point of the upon which no difference of opi nion could prevail. This, as it was said, was indeed an important conuncture of affairs—we were now in the very crisis of , our fate. • Upon the conduct of the British Parliament, it would depend whether the Bri tish empire should exist—whether the British Consti tution, the foundation of our prosperity, our great ness, and our glory, should endure--or whether both should together be overwhelmed and overthrown.— : He could say, with the Noble Viscount who spoke before him, that he came down to the House with an ardent desire to concur in the Address, and to join with his Majesty in upholding the rights and asserting the honour of his people. He slid trope, that for one day the little passions would have been set at rest, and that nothing would be proposed which had the least tendency to disturb that unanimity which, at the opening of a session, it was always desirable should prevail, and which was peculiarly necessary at the present moment. He fully joined in the opi nion urged so often by a great Statesman (Mr Fox), whose death was a great public loss, with that force peculiar to him, that nothing should be more avoided' by Ministers at the commencement of a Session, than any attempt to entrap . Parliament, either by af, Spee4h from the Throne, or an Address in answer to it, into an Approbation of their measures. lkhen, ha', wo uld ask, h a d paoiamentleen ever reqpiredtogive'l their approbation to measures respecting which;they had no .docurnsmts before them ? As to whet hap- i pened at Copenhagen,.he bad hitherto avoided giving wiopinion upon 4, ; because it •was _ . not coasistent th . id eas pf jKstme . to decide .nkon a cause ,with; out sufkeient s przofs. When .that attac* tookpla.ce, he was inelined tc) give GfPfc'tnMellt iPtaise foe upon .the.plasuMpttell .that thAy.scuil own memo; yr i zas ssi the hostng intMions ,that iprat pi lee would.mt tciAVM* mks' .before )fit- w.iyhest 4hat ateasuteisl2944l.bo 440.044-.ltpap jaincißlis jufttcs Awl incasily. ostilmt She fottliggs :t Nit points of the Speech, except one, he fully concurred with himt Papers were promised to be laid before Parliament on several points ; but respecting that momentous event, the attack upon Copenhagen, he could not find in the Speech that the smallest hope bras held out of any information being submitted to Parliament. Without such information, he could not give his unqualified concurrence to that measure. He trusted Ministers would be able to lay proofs be fore their Lordships, that the Court of Denmark en. tertained those designs which they had attributed to it. Until those proofs were brought forward, he must withhold his approbation of the attack upon Copen. hagen. It was, therefore, his intention to move an amendment to the Address proposed by the Noble Earl, and for that purpose he would move, that that part of it which gives unqualified appro bation to what had been done at Cenhagen should be omitted. If that motion dbe agreed to, he would afterwards move to introduce other words in the place of the rejected paragraph. Lord SIDMOUTH began with expressing his re gret that the Speech had not been so constructed as to ensure the unanimity of all parties. He lamented that Ministers did not abstain from introducing topics upon which a difference of opinion was likely to pre vail. He fully agreed with the Noble Baron, who seconded the motion, that it was desirable in the highest degree, that all minor contests should be ab sorbed in the great contest in which we were engaged. He lamented exceedingly, that he found it impossible to concur in the expressions of approbation which were unfortunately introduced in the Address ' • but he could not, consistently with his duty to his Sove reign, or his respect for his own character, concur in approving what had taken place at Copenhagen, without further information. On that momentous measure he trusted Ministers would yet be able to lay such documents before the House as would justify an enterprise deeply involving the honour and character of the nation. The Noble Earl had set out with stating, that Denmark, for the last seven years, had indicated an hostile disposition towards this country. In what were these indications saroxi. fested ? Were they indicated in the conduct of that power when the British fleet entered the Baltic ? At that time the Danish army was in Holstein, prepared to resist the French, or any other power who should attempt to violate their neutrality. Was the Danish navy prepared eitjier to make or repel an attack ? He would be told, that the quantity of naval stores col-. leeted in the arsenal of Copenhagen was a proof of the hostile intentions of that Court. These, it was said, were collected on account of France, and for French purposes. But these could not have been the: motives of the expedition to the Baltic. When did this perfect understanding between Denmark and France take _place ? Was it before or after the pekoe of Tilsit ? The Definitive Treaty between France and Russia was signed on the Bth July, and Lord Gambier entered the Baltic on the Sd of August. This circum stance was sufficient to prove that Ministers did not act upon any information they had obtained of the se-' cret engagements entered into between France and Russia, and in which they would have it to be under stood Denmark concurred. To justify that measure, therefore, the attack upon Copenhagen, it ought to have been proved that the danger was a danger of great magnitude, and such as could not be warded o ff . by any other means ; for certainly the calamity in flicted was not proportioned to the calamity appre hended. He hoped, for the honour of the nation, it, would be made evident that the datlger vmsgreat. He could not give his assent to the opinion;, that if Hol-- stein were occupied by the Fiench, Zealand would: be at their mercy.' Nothing but such a frostas would render the Great Belt_pssable 'b.y an.atray; could have endangered the safety of that:island; lie: had conversed with many naval and military persons of great experience, and they:frilly acquiesced in this i , opinion. His Lordship used many other arguments' to prove the impracticability of the French getting to Zealand, and thereby obtaining possession,of theba..; nish fleet. But supposing they had, .he would norjo:, derogate from the valour, the activity, and .the alte'S character of the 13riti5h navy, as.toAdusitlar - IZia - A5 . 41 1 !: k g RIP • SLXF-PE,IcR . . Lordships should not enter into the consideration.ol: !a question involving th e honour and character of Ow . :count/.. It is said the eyei of Europe are uoon - dis - They are inyleed. .4urepz was anxious to jec . -Olf 'the 13ritish Plirlitiment would considef tl*: pitkeed ings in the Baltic. The iinpression at pii*enT sthitik. upon. the Continent was, he believedi eitremettnor 'favourable to the character of England: ititistegiS; B of proofs to decide this important quest - 303)c silk: was the case ?• We were called upon, not to deliberate: and•decide, but to give an unqualifterl approbation to what, he was sorry to say, vas considered in ertirf part of the Continent as a foul and an airsitious'act: We were called:upon to sanction a mein* Which vlfr were not permitted to discuss. His Lordship torts 77 plained that the declaration had not been, - laidbefora Parliament, in which, to his utter astonishment, he found statements directly contradictory to the speech. When that declaration reached him, at a consider able distance from the capital, the impression upon his mind was, that some :ezier articles had been Con cluded at Tilsit between France and Russia, to which Denmark was privy, and that they were hostile to this country. But where were those secret articles ? Had the House heard any thing of them.this night ?, The speech was wholly silent on the subject. 'Whatever we had heard of in other documents, ' there was no mention of secret arrangements, or positive informa tion, in the speech delivered from the throne; nothing farther than information to his Majesty . of the ene my's designs. Of them nobody could doubt ' • nor of his intention to combine against us all the force that his success on the Continent could supply him with. As to that sort of secret information, he might observe on what would be the case. of i nformation given by some secret emissaries of France in this country to our enemy, on which France might chus6 to act ? But how could this directly apply to the case of Denmark, not an enemy herself, and respec tingwhomthereis a complete departure from the secret articles, arrangements, and hostile preparations, which are reduced merely to the desig ns of the enemy, to combine certain Powers of Europe with himself aginst this country. Was it possible that such a construction of the case could amount to a justifia; ble cause of war ? Upon entering into that war which. terminated so fatally in the catastrophe of Austerlitz, many engagements, and secret engagements too, were made with different Powers of Europe. Who, ever were the Powers, Prussia or Naples, or any othet with whom we had any secret negociation, if the% had been attacked on some mere suspicion, whit should we not have heard of gigantic and unjuitifi t .: able ambition? He did not, however, mean to cast any blame on those secret negotiations ; but what Would have been said, had the enemy seized ben: mark then, as he did Naples, to the possibly perpe ! tual exelnsion of the family of that Sovereign, be cause he took some part in the hostilities ? lathe case of Besse, he acted upon the p rinciple of a suspected adherence, anddesire of assisting the arms of Prussia; and what clamours were raised, and justly raised against him on that account ? The charge againse Hesse was, that of expected co-operation with his Prussian enemy. The great objections the Noble Lord felt to all the apologies he had lyird was, that they sO confounded the only grounds on which the transaction could be justified, that a strong suspi cion was necessarily cast upon those who conducted the whole business, and upon the principle of the measure. If Denmark was a party in the plans of France—if it could be shewn that any articles of that sort had been mutually agreed to—if any sort of proof could be given of the intended conduct of Denmark in favour of France and in hostility to Great Britaiq, thit was a c ause for our proceedings, and the ouly,question remaining would have been one of policy.—But was it so ?—Where was the proof ? The Declaration did not assert it suiliciently, nor did it contain any proofs ; the Russian declaration denied it, and his Majesty's speech declared no such thing. Yet two things had been stated that night ; that the Danish Navy was in a state of preparation, and that Denmark had shewn evident signs of hostility to wards us; now these were points necessary to be fairly considered. Was it a fit ground for bom barding the capital of Denmark, that she had pre pared her fleet in time of general warfare ? Should a former difference between us and Denmark, which had been settled by treaty, and sunk, as it were, ' into oblivion, be revived against her as a ground of charge, after mutual pledges of amity had been ex changed ? Because Denmark had been equivocal, and indeed hostile in her politics and proceedings at a former period, should her naval preparations in 1807 be taken as signs of hostility against Great Britain under all the circumstances of her situation ? A 4; effort had been made to spew that Denmark, in 1801, had manifested hostile sentiments, under the influence of Russia, and that she had stated the pressure of Russia as her inducement. His Lordship remetn bered much of that business, but he was not in office at the final close of it ; but he could confidentlyassert, that up to the month of March no such pretence was alled i ged, and, therefore, that, as to the origin of that affair, the assertions made were confuted in fact. As to the subsequent period, the precedent was not much better, for, in truth, Denmark was the prime insti gator of the whole of that question, and the league that took place ; it was not, on that occasion, the yielding bf Denmark to any menaces of Russia ;_ . I burt after what had happened, would' any _No* Lord say, that her conduct then ought to be remembered against .her, and that, therefore, a strong doubt ought to be cast won all her subsequent conduct # If there Wcre grounds to justify the attack, sihere were the proofs ? If the Danish navy was in a peculiar state of preparation, let Parliament have evidence laid be. .fprethemupon that subject. Let them have some :100hentic documents on which to judge. Thole proofs mtlts; exist. Ministers had it jn their. power, he sup, posed, to give tuuivoca.l proofs on this head. But, Wore their Lorips wife called upon to give their _apini9n: on such a trnusatutit, it wat, at least, nests- Aory. Atatisorile.fac&tiboilg 43.431461464ectmkwhich I