Star. — London, England, 1823-04-16 00:00:00

had the satisrartion of saying . that he had nearly caucladed his observations. He had never talked to any Irishman, whether Catholic or Protestant, who was hot i n dignant at these proceedings; and he hoped the same feeling would be echoed in a British House. of Commons. Englishmen all vciretated their Con stitution, and if there were any part of it which they almost love) to madness, it was the Trial by Jury— (Load cries of hear). He hoped they would never stiffer any man to abuse it; for if they did, the next ste p to follow would be the, abolition of the liberties of the subject—( Vekerient cries or Hear, hear). The Hon. M e mber concluded by moving a Resolution to the effect, that the late proceedings of the Attorney- General for Ireland, and particularly in the late pi o secutinns, were on wise, unconstitutional, pressing upon the subject, and ought not to be drawn into a piece -dent hereafter. Mr. PLUNKETT said, that in rising on such an occasion as the present, the House would naturally sup pose that he felt some degree of embarrassment. He had listened nit!) great attention to the speech of the Honourable Gentleman. Many of the observa tions which had fallen from him were entitled to his (Mr. Plunkett's) entire approbation; but he could not help complaining that when the Honourable Member brought f ant ard a specific charge against him for having filed an cx officio information, after a bill of indictment had been ignored by the Grand Jury, he s hould have endeavoured by all the powers of his eloquence to involve him (Mr. Plunkett) in. all the odium which applied to the doctrine of es officio in formations in general. The argument of the Honour able Gentleman went the length of arraigning jhe power of the Crown to file ex ?fficio informations in all cases, whether through its Law Officer or the Court of King's Bench. If the proceeding by infor mation were odious, illegal, and unconstitutional, as was contended, he (Mr. Plunkett) was not liable to the charge of having imported it from Ireland into England, or of exposing Orli country to the infection of the example set in Ireland; for among all the in stitutions incorporated into the law of this country, there were none of more unquestioned antiquity and admitted legality than the proceeding by informa tion. He must think it somewhat hard that he (Mr. Plunkett) should be selected as the object of censure, and that his conduct should be represented to Parlia ment as worthy to be classed with that of Sir George Jefferies, of infamous memory—with that of Empson and Dudley, and all persons who had inflicted misery on their country, and whose acts had brought down vengeance on their heads. It was rather too hard that the accumulated odium of a thousand years should be reserved for this day, and thundered on his devoted head. He would put it to the candour of the Honourable Member—he would throw himself upon the justice of the House, and ask whether it was fair to couple any observations upon his conduct with a reference to the filthy, disgusting Billingsgate which flowed from Jefferies when he reprimanded the Grand Jury, and sent them back a third time?— The Honourable Gentleman had introduced a charge unconnected with the present question, that of his (Mr. Plunkett's) having advised the committal of the parties tor a capital offence, who were after waeds prosecuted only for a misdemeanour. The Hon. Member had brought forward a motion for censure without any evidence to support it, but he (Mr. Plunkett) did not intend to act so mean and unworthy a part, as to shelter himself behind the total want of evidence. It was true that the Magistrates who com mitted those individuals were responsible for their own act, and there was no evidence that they had atoned to his (Mr. Plunkett's) advice; he would f r ekly avow, however, that the Magistrates did re sort to his advice. The information upon which he bad advised the committal had not been laid before the House. It had been very properly and judi ciously withheld, not for the purpose of screening himself, the Attorney-General of Ireland, but for the purpose of protecting the Magistrates—(Hear). —When these parties were first taken up by the Ma gistrates, although he considered the offence with which they were charged a most daring outrage which called for exemplary punishment—although be considered that there was ample proof of a riot and conspiracy, he did not think, there was any proof of a deliberate plan for taking away the life of the Lord Lieutenant. An inquiry was instituted into all the circumstances, which lasted seven days, in the course of which it appeared that Mr. Forbes was one of the principals who had planned the conspiracy, and had assisted in packing the house for the purpose of car rying on the riot. As to the missiles, the bottle and rattle which were thrown at the Lord Lieutenant, it was easy to make jokes on such a subject. ,The bottle might be an empty bottle, and the rattle might, per haps, be called an " agreeable rattle !" but if the bottle, whether empty or not, and the log of wood called a rattle, had struck the Lord Lieutenant, in stead of cutting the cushion of the box in which he sat, either of those missiles might have deprived him of life. This Mr. Forbes regretted not that he had thrown the bottle, but that it had missed ; and what was the excuse set up for this most atrocious conduct? Why, it was that he ssas'druuk, and acted upon by his bad passions —that he was infuriated with liquor.— These were the grounds upon which Ile had dared to plead that he was not answerable for this deed ; but if he had not been made answerable for it, where would have been the safety of the illustrious per- 1 , soilage at whom it was thrown ? After this digression, he should take a review of the law and the functions of Grand Jurors. He contended, that it was per fectly legal to file ex officio informations, as well after as before a bill has been ignored by a Grand Jury; for even in proceedings by indictment which may have been ignored, other bills of indictment might hesent to the same or other Grand Juries, Satin quo lies, as the same bill for the same offence might be thrown out. This, then, 'hewed that a Grand Jury . Awes not so sacred a thing as had been represented. Re contended next, on the authority of Judge Black stone and others, that the power of ex Ocio informa tions was a prerogative reserved to the Crown at the first formation of our Constitution. When the Star Chamber was abolished, the power of proceeding by information was expressly reserved to the Crown by the very Act of Parliament which abolished that Chamber. At the Revolution, some Members of Par hament wished the system of informations abolished; but alter three or tour years, and many conferences between the Lords and the Commons, the Act was passed, which left the power of informations to the Attorney-Genet - 41, but . took it from the Master of the übj im !..)1 . • Crown Offi c e, who had before that time enjoyed I asked of the Sheriff? he replied—ft What, do you that power co-exterisieely with the Attorney-General. 1 think 171 have such a man as that upon • the Ju There wa s no hint nei one.' of the law-b oo k s w hi c h who. has bee n k nown to d ec l are pu bli c ly that tit makes any distinction between the proceeding by in- stand by the King's Letter?"—(Lord Laughter).. .1.-.1 formation and by indictment. The principle of law Another fact was, that all the Grand Jurors answered; was, that n o su bj ect cou ld be tried, either by indict- i n regular order until the whole were made uV,.with-1 rnent or information, after having been once acquitted out one person failing to answer to his name. A man, . of the charge by a Petit Jury. The finding of the named Troy, went before the Grand Jury, who ad- 1 Petit Jury was a bar to all future trial ; but that was mitted that lie did not know Forbes's name at the not so with respect to the finding of the Grand Jury, time of the riot, but he now knew it. One of the I as he had already shewn. He quoted some cases to Jury said, "Itis no matter what you know now, shew, that in the Court of King's Bench informations confine yourself to what you knew then ;•` and they had been tried after the Grand Jury had found the rejected his evidence. 1-le then went into a detail of bills ignoramus. Indeed, that was held, in the case of the proceedings before this Grand J •thoug ht Ur). lie the King v. Pope, in the reign of George H. to be a he had succeeded in shewiag the legality a the pro very strong reason, where party heats prevailed, for ceedings. If be had a c ted legally, but had not used granting the i n f ormat i on . Thi s was not t h e op i n i on o f hi s di scret i on r i g h t l y, then let ' that be proved. His Empson, Dudley, Jefferies, or any other violator of the discretion `was not to be censured, unless Oppression Constitution, but of the great and cons tit u ti ona l L or d on his part could be shewn. The question was, had Hardwick. He quoted also an information for a mis- he acted honestly? He had spent a long life connected demeanor, granted by Lord Mansfield, because the with politics, and every man who knew him wars aware Grand Jury had ignored the Bill through partiality. that he was never actuated by the feelings and senti- In that case, some of the Grand Jury had declared meats of party. He had ever disdained to give his that they would throw out the Bill. The third case attention to the little motives of the exasperated par was, an information against the Inhabitants of the ties and hostile sects, who, unless in attackinghim, were County of Berks, for not repairing a bridge ; this was never known to agree in one common object (Cheers). in the third of his present Majesty; and an informs- He disdained the winding ways and crooked paths of tion was granted after several Grand Juries had their base and narrow policy—(Hear, hear). He ignored the Bill. He hoped that he had shewn that thought this a question of far more than personal in he had not brought this contagion into England. So terest. It was a question whether eqtral law was or much for this country; now, for Ireland. The re- was Lot to be administered in Ireland ; whether the cords of the Court of King's Bench had been searched advice of the King, in recommending a cessation of since 1795, and n o l ess than 13 similar cases found, party hostilities, and a new era of 'a Government by of informations being granted after the Grand Juries law and Constitution, was to be complied with ; Cr had thrown out the bills. The first case was one for whether a party was to set at defiance the commands perjury ;—and here he thanked the Hon. Mover for of the Sovereign and the laws of the land, and to the warmth with which he had spoken in favour of proscribe all those who had the virtue and courage extending British law and British justice to Ire- in Ireland to stand up to the Constitution ? (Cheers). land ;—but if be (Mr. Plunkett) was to receive the He had now placed the case before' the House; he censure of that House, it would not be for having had accurately stated the facts, and frankly avowed been wanting in endeavouring to extend the blessing the principles on which he acted. It was a question to Ireland. The Right Hon. Gentleman then went of great and important public concern; but as a mat through several other cases, all similar, and men- ter in which he was also personally intere s ted, he felt tioned one in which affidavits bad been made that the it a necessary consequence of the delicate situation in very Grand Jury who ignored the bills against the which he was placed, to leave the House to the free rioters at the Dublin Theatre, had, through miscon- and unconstrained exercise of its judgment, and he duct, ignored a bill for a fraud, in which one person would therefore withdraw.—(The Right lion. Gen gave money to another in order to enable him. to tleman heee left the House, and was accompanied in swear that he had received an order to prove a his departure by universal and continued acclamation false debt against'a third person. It would seem from one of the most crowded Houses ever witnessed.) that this Grand Jury had had so Much- labour in Mr. W. COURTENAY supported the arguments ignoring the bills against the rioters, that, like Ju- of the Right Honourable Gentleman. Ile declared . piter, after begetting Hercules, they had not power to that he proved the legal and constitutional character find another true bill during the Sessions—(A laugh). of the power which he, exercised beyond the possibi- The Right Honourable Gentleman then adverted to lity of doubt. He contended that the filing of an ex the cases cited by the Honourable Mover, and con- ecio information in the particular instance, was ne tended that they were totally irrelevant to the present cessary for the safety of the country, and the genuine question. After the censure he had incurred he patriotism of the Attorney-General for Ireland had should not be very anxious to no before a Grand been evinced by the course of proceeding which he Jury, by way of indictment, if he could proceed by adopted. But he was of opinion that the House of information in the first place. No one would say Commons ought not to come to such a decision as that the attack on the Lord Lieutenant was not a fit would allow either party to assume an air of triumph evhiect for an information, had he not gone first to a on this occasion, as thereby the party feeling and ir- Grand Jury. This, then, was all the offence for which ritation of Ireland might be increased, instead of thelightnings of the Honourable Gentleman's elo- being diminished. He would therefore propose a quence had been thundered forth against his devoted middle course, and one which he thought calculated head. Had he done so, all the anger of the Grand to allay political animosity and irritation ; and he Jury of Armagh, and all the pathos of the Honour- would therefore propose that the House should pro able Gentleman, would have evaporated. .Mr.Jus- need to the other Orders of the Day. • tice Bayley had regretted that informations were not Mr. DENNIS BROWNE was in favour of the more frequently resorted to, because they often saved amendment. • parties much expense. But to return to the late riot— Colonel BARRY said many of the Right Hon. it was proved that the parties had printed placards Gentleman's statements rested on anonymous infoto previous to going to the Theatre; that Forbes purr oration. It had been stated that Sheriff Thorpe had chased the tickets ; that he was hissing; and in corn- said, that the traversers need have no fears of the re munication with the other rioters; and that at . the suit, as he had an Orange Jury in his pocket. That Tavern he hoped they would be more successful conversation was stated to have taken place in the another time. He then contended that the crime presence of eight persons, all of whom were ready to of riot was distinctly proved against all the prisoners. make affidavit that no such conversation had taken Yet with such evidence the Grand Jury ignored the place.—That circumstance ought to make the House Bill (Hear, hear.) lie (Mr. Plunkett) would candidly distrustful of some of the statements they had heard, pet the House in possession of what he felt to be the The only man who could speak to the throwing of impression under which that Jury acted. It was his the bottle before the Grand Jury had never been conviction—a conviction which he felt with all the examined before the Petty Jury; and of the twenty force of a Moral certainty—that they, the Grand Jury, seven witnesses examined before the Grand Jury, conceived the plan of these rioters to be a very right twelve only had been examined before the Petty Jury. and proper plan. It was extremely proper and law.- Had not the Attorney-General omitted the phrase, ful that a certain class of persons, whom " for some- " with many others," in the indictment, there could thing or for nothing," he (Mr. Plunkett) had desig- be no doubt that the Grand Jury, who had found nated as a gang (Hear, hear, hear,) should have seized the bill against two, would have found it also against on the first opportunity that presented itself for mark- the others. ing their powerful disapprobation of such an.acqui- Lord MILTON had derived much pleasure from cscence in the expressed commands of his Majesty the speech of the Hon. Mover, Who had shewn such a (Ciaers.) To that extent they felt it highly loyal the glowing love for liberty ; though he was at a loss to opposition should proceed, though they were not pre- reconcile that love of freedom with his having, in pared to go the length of thinking that it was right 1819, hurried from Ireland to suspend the privileges to fling bottles and rattles at his representative. That, of the English people. (Hear!) If the Sheriffs of Ire in his conscience, be believed to be the decided con- land acted in the manner that had been stated, it was viction of the Grand Jury—a conviction, he also be- high time that the British Parliament should teach lieied, which the greater proportion of the Dublin them their duty. He could not approve of the way Corporation did not consider erroneous (Cheers.)— in which an lion. and Learned Gentleman would get Tire Right Hon. Gentleman then read the direction rid of the question. At the same time, he did not given by the Judge to the Jury upon the trial, as to think that his Hon. and Learned Friend had exercised the right of an audience to express disapprobation in a sound discretion. The Irish Government appeared a theatre. It denied the right of attacking public or to be divided against itself. It was, in fact, a mis political characters, in the case of actors and per. government, capable of mischief, but incapable of formances—they were not protected if they broke the good. Why were the heads and patrons of Orange peace. The Right Hon. Gentleman next adverted Lodges invested with some of the highest offices of to the Orange Association. After declaring his opi. the Government ? Under such a Government, 211 1 nion of the dangers and the illegality of Orange So- that had taken place was to be expected. He could cieties,' but disclaiming the idea of descending from neither assent to the motion nor the amendment. that character, which he would venture to say he had Mr.GOULBURN expressed his entire concurrence maintained through life, to attack any party with the in all that had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend ; and feelings of faction, the Right Hon. Gentleman pro- in the whole of his conduct he (Mr. Goulburn) had ceeded to state, that an Orange Association had pre - tak en a res p onsible p art. The doctrine of the Noble viously come to the determination of seizing the first Lord (Milton) was, that the Irish Government should opportunity to drive the Lord Lieutenant out of the exclude from o ffi ce all who, upon a particular ques theatre, and then out of the country, in order to tion, differed from themselves. If Lord Wellesley induce the Government to change its measures.— did wrong in retaining him (Mr.Goulbutn) for his The Association to which he had alluded, sent to a Secretary, how could a Protestant Lord Lieutenant Lodge to raise a subscription, with which they purr be justified in appointing a Catholic Secretary; which ,chased tickets, and stationed 150 of the lowest yet, upon the opinions of the Noble Lord, he ought Otangemen in the gallery, who were afterwards di- to have the power to do ? He felt with the Mile Lord, rected by Forbes during the whole of tke riot. There that the Amendment of his Learned Friend was liable were other facts which lie found himself called upon to objection; and if he did not press the House to a to state to the House. The Sheriff was closely re- direct opinion, it was for the sake of that conciliation hued to one of the traversers, and when some one re- which it was so much the wish of the Irish Coveen marked that they were in an awkward situation, he meat to effect. The defence of his Right lion. Friend observed that they need not fear a trial, as he had a bad been left undiminished by any of the remarks Jury of Orangemen in his pocket • for them—(Hear). that had been made upon it. The extraordinary cir- Upon another occasion he made' a remark not less cumstances of the case justified the extraordinary . ex . ercise of power on the part of the Attorney-General. strange. An Orangeman, for some reason or other, I he further agitation . of One question could only tend bad expressed a wish to serve upon the Grand Jury, and he had been promised a place on the pannel.— to keep a liv e animosities, and he and his Right Hon. When the time came, however, his mime was (band Fricrals were content with the qualified measure of not to have been put down ; upon the ream*, being his llon. Friend, Mr. Coartesq. Mr. BROUGHAM made with much pain the de ' elaration, that the conduct of his Right lion. Friend I had not .bien constitutional.-" The tarsal,-if I not the legal *principle, was certain' y kpoinst hirßight Hon. Friend. At that late-hour of the night it was a serious thing to 'enter into eighteen' Cases, and 'he v. as !.piad he-could dispense with such Zases,•as none of them bore upon the point. 'None of these eighteen • cases applied to the Conduct of the Attorney• General, I but to that of the Court of King's Bench, in granting `informations. Four;nnly of the cases were English, and in which the Court of King's Bench had been called upon to interfere. No man, he believed, was old enough to tecollect a case in which an Attorney-Ce• neral of England ever dreamt even of filing an infor mation aftrr a-Grand Jury had ignored a bill. This was a fact going far to shew. that no such power ought to exist,' and was better than a thousand such cases as those cited by the Irish Attorney-General.-: If an ex officio ever was to be filed, he thought the opportunity for doing it now existed against the High Sheriff; and if the Attorney-General was this night to be acquitted on the charge made 12y him against the Sheriff, of the high crime of packing - a Jury, he (Mr. Brougham) would ask, could the House se parate without their taking some steps against that individual ? One thing, however, he bad heard in the evening's debate, and that Was what had fallen horn the Right Hon. Secretary for Ireland, who had said, and no doubt was desirous that the House should be lieve him, that never was there a Government more united than the present; whilst he, on the mitrary, when be looked at the Bench cyposite, thought he never saw a Government more chequered, especially on every Irish question. Like the keys of a harpsi chord, black and white alternately, till he came to his two Learned Friends, the Attorney and Solicitor- General for England, and there it was all black, for they were both against the Catholics(llear, hear). ‘Vhitever change took place, whether. by death, or by retirement and pension, the first care was to fill up the vacancy, so as to keep the balance equal on that great vital question, which he considered as so closely connected with the vital interests of Ireland. The Hon. Member proceeded to comment on the di visions which existed in the Irish Government in Ire land, and strongly condemned the Orange faction.— It was his ardent wish to see the differences of Ire land buried in oblivion, arid he felt it to be his first duty, in the prosecution of that object, to oppose the bad set by which it had been so long misgoverned. Mr. Secretary CANNING said he entirely agreed with the lion. and Learned Gentleman, so far as his object was to put an end to the dissention which un fortunately prevailed in Ireland. It was his wish to give to neither party a triumph which might distress the other. He differed, however, from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, inasmuch as he was desirous this should be the final proceeding on.the subject. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had taken a most extraordinary course to promote the tranquillity of Ireland, when he held out MeMbers of its Govern ment to odium. If theory couhl be reduced to prac tice, many might. expect a Government in Ireland, entertaining, but one opinion on one great question, yet - . it was lolly to look for agreement on that sub ject in any Goverisment 'at 'the present time. The moment Was ill chosen by the lion. and Learned Gentlenaan for representing that no confidence could be given to the Government of Ireland. Foralie.first time Jilting many years a disposition bad been shevva to introduce in Ireland a Guveri.o,ent Nelr . would administer impartiality to all. He was convinced that whatever might be the feeling with regard to Lord Wellesley's Government, there was no ground for complaint. If disunion had arisen in Ireland it was not on account of partiality in the Government. It was almost impossible to form an Administration unanimous on the subject to which the lion. and Learned Gentleman alluded. There always had been, since the Union, a party in the Administration whose opinion differed radically on that single ques tion. If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman and his friends were to forma new Administration to-morrow, it would not be possible to procure unanimity on that subject. It was the duty of the House to do every thing for the amelioration of Ireland, and there had been no backwardness in bringing forward measures for her benefit. It was really ungrateful at !Lich a moment to use invective. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman would do more ih lending a helping hand than in agitating public feeling. He opposed the motion, with a view that the Right Hon. Cientleinan might carry back to Ireland, not a triumph, but proof that, with the Government of Ireland, he frac: the confidence of Parliament. On that ground the Right Hon. Gent. might at least have his acquittal. Mr. DALY urged the necessity of inquiring intc the conduct of the High Sheriff of Dublin, and ex pressed a hope that no opposition would be offere%: to a motion having that object. Mr. BROUGHAM said he should redeem his pledge, by giving notice of a motion, if no other Member took up the subject. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL did not wish to prolong the discussion, but called on as he had been, 'he could not avoid making a few observations. He concluded that his Right Hon. and Learned Friend had not acted illegally in filing an ea-el/Trio informa tion after the Grand Jury had ignored the bill. The le gality of the proceeding wag admitted by Lawyers. Every Lawyer knew, if a bill was igaored by the Grand Jury, it was not a bar to further proceedings before the Court of King's Bench. According to the argu ment of his Honourable and Learned Friend, if the Grand Jury ignored a bill charging a grave offence, the Crown had no remedy.. Thar was placing the Crown in a worse situation than the Constitution al lowed. He could not bring his mind to believe his Honourable and Learned Friend had any doubt in his own mind on the legality of the proceeding. He contended that the conduct of the Attorney-General for Ireland was borne out by law. His clear opinion was, that, as faras . thrs •law was concerned, the-At torney-General for. Ireland was completely justified. 'Mr. SCARLETT said, he was induced to rise for the purpose of stating a difference which arose In the argument. He admitted that the conduct . Of the Ate torrrey-General was legal, but it Could not be' caltel constitotional. It had been the custom in the Eti , • .chequer to discharge the Jury when *they were dig posed to find a verdict against the Crown, #pd give up the prosecution. Atter a Grand Tury had thrown Out a bill , rt Could tibt be ednititbtiodal to ftle an ts ditio biforMation." The Attdrbey-Cierseril atight-to i.ttississi with the Mph, withstus going from the I :