Star. — London, England, 1823-05-15 00:00:00

mince to inquire into the state of the Estahlkhed Church of Ire. land, the residence of the Clergy, and the rest Fruits Fupd. PENITENTIARY. Mr. G. BIe.NNF.; moved that a Select Committee be ap pointed to inquire into the state of the penitentiary at Millbank. Sir J. YORKE took that opportunity of reading to the house a letter which had been written by Mr. Copeland Hutchison to the Committee. pointing out the existence of the scurvy amonest the convicts. Tly• Hon Baronet grid, th:tt he drew the attention of the Holm to the letter, hecause a notion had prevailed that Mr. Hutchison had neglected to give watning of the scurvy. BREACH OF PRIVILEGE. Mr. WILLIAMS said, that the Members of the House would be aware, that in the inquiry . which that House had instituted into the conduct of the Sheriff of Dublin, it had been thought necessary to bring forward an individual oldie name of Wadden, for the purpose of examination. In the course of . that witness's cross-examination, an inquiry had been made by an Hon. Member respecting some domestic circumstances of a peculiar nature; and that the question had created a great senaation, and had. after much discussion. been ordered to be expunged from the minutes of the evidence of the Committee. In the cono.e of the discussion which took place on that point, several Honourable Members had dis tincly intimated a confident expectation, founded open their reliance on the discretion of those who bad the management of the public press, that on that particnlar occasion they would abstain totally from giving publication to the subject. Accordingly, such had been the good faith, and such the conformity shewn to the opinion of the House by the Press of the, l‘tetrc polls, that not one Paper had noticed the ques tion. It did so happen that he had that afternoon Year(' one Honourable Member of that House say, that until that day he had never heard of the ques tion. The Dublin Evening Mail, however, after stating the questions which preceded that which had afterwards been expunged from the Minutes, had. proceeded to give the examination in the following manner. The Hon. Member here read an extract; which detailed at full length the examination which the House had crdered to be expunged. The same reasons which induced us to omit it in the first in stance, of course prevent us from giving it publicity now. He thought that the feelings of the individual who had been examined must be more hurt by such a publication, than they would have been by a faithful and liberal transcript of the evidence as it had ap-, peared on the Minutes. He should therefore move, that the Printer of The Dublin Evening Mail be or dered to appear at the Bar of the House. Colonel BARRY wished to offer a few words. He did not in any degree mean to justify the printer of the Newspaper in que.tion in publishing an explana tion which had been expunged by universal consent. He would say in justification of his own conduct in putting the questions alluded to, that he had thought them essential to public justice, and he had had no reason since to change his opinion. He lamented that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had taken the coarse which he had taken, for the mode which he had adopted would give publicity to the whole cir cumstance, and it would now be circulated from one end of the kingdom to the other. He would add, that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was wrong in supposing that no other paper had noticed the exami nation ; for the paper to which he (Colonel Barry) had drawn the attention of the House a few evenings ago, had alluded to it in a very ' g ross manner. 14r. BROUGH A M said,- that every publication of the proceedings of chit House was, strictly speaking, a breach of its privileges; but that it was only in ag gravated cases that the House felt it necessary to en force its privilege—the public utility overruling in the minds of Members any disposition to complain in ordinary occasions of a breach of privilege. He thought that an aggravated breach of privilege more Completely unjustifiable than the indecorous and ma lignant article which had just been referred to, had never been before the House. While he called to the recollection of the House, that none had ex pressed themselves more strongly than he had on the occasion when the question had been first put, yet he also reminded them that no threat had been held out; nothing but an appeal 'to the good sense and good feeling of the parties particularly addressed. He should now vote against the motion of his Hon. Friend, not for the reason given by the Hon. Mem ber who had just spoken ; but because the House had long ago, by an annunciation o: absolute impunity, given to all persons leave to violate the privileges of the House. If it were not irregular to interrupt the debate, he should will to preface what he had to say by the Clerk reading floor the Journals of the House, their proceedings on the 22d of July last, when Messrs. Ilope and Menzies had appeared at the bar. On that occasion, after the House had committed such a dereliction of duty as they had then commit ted—after they_ had then abandoned everything likel an assertion of their privileges—after they had joined by their cheers in the triumph of those who had violated their privileges—after they had, for the fiat time in the history of Parliament, so far stultified and degraded themselves by au indecorous expression of triumph at their own humiliation—he had taken the liberty of stating that he would never again allow, without entering his protest against it, • the vengeance of that House to visit a poor unpro tected printer who might ignorantly violate their pri vileges, when they had passed over a Law Officer of the Crown who had committed an infinitely grosser violation, and who bad refused to palliate his offence by denying that his object ia wa icing. the letter had been to produce a personal quarrel wish a Member of that House for doing his duty as a Member of Parliament. 'When such an offence had been visited by no punishment, and when the majority of the Hotise, headed by some of the Members of the Cabi net, had, by their triumphal cheers, told the House that their privileges were of so fine a nature that they might bend to an insult from an Officer of the Crown, but that when violated by a printer, the ven geance of the House ought to be hurled red-hot at his head, and he himselt overwhelmed by fines and imprisonment, he (Mr. Brougham) had given a pledge, in conformity with which, even if he voted alone, he would now vote against any step taken to punish a breach of privilege; because ire saw that their privileges had nothing of justice or manliness • in them, and that they were only used to aid the purpose of one party, and withdrawn when sought to be made available by another. What signified the preseut breach of privilege in comparison with that to which he had alluded? The only way in which he thought the house could rote for any further pi u- =1 ~_~-~++~ ceedings, would be to preface it with a salvo like- I this:—" That this House does not think fit to pro ceed further on this occasion, after the general Im punity which it virtually pronounced respecting all breaches of privilege since the 17th of July, 1822 ; but that after this fair, just, and open notice, the House will henceforth proceed to vindicate its privileges"— (Ikar, hear.) . Mr. HU l CHINSON stated, that he believed the rublication in question had taken place in ignorance of the express wish of the House. The particular question bad been asked at loast three quarters of an I;dur before the prohibition expressed respecting .its publication, and in the interval the individual em ployed by the Irish papers had sent off by post the particulars of the examination up to that hour ; and afterwards, when the order was given for the evi• der,ce to be expunged from the minutes, the post hour had passed, and it had been impossible to con vey the order of the House to Ireland in time to pre vent a publication. From this the House would see that there had been no desire to offend. Sir J. NEWPORT adverted to the second edition which had been printed, in which edition the exami nation in question had been - published, as well as the order of the House to expunge it from the minutes. Mr. CANNING suggested to the Hon. Member for Lincoln to consider whether it would be advisable to press his Motion, for if the printer api eared at that bar, and made that statement fur himself which the Hon. Member for Cork had just made for him, he did not see how the House could interfere. Mr. WILLIAMS said, that he had no personal motive in bringing forward the motion ; and if it was the wish of the House that it should be with drawn, he was quite ready to withdraw it. After some further observations, the Hon. Member with drew his motion. • LONDON BRIDGE. The Sheriffs o 6 the City of London presented a Petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Com mon Council of the City of London, against the Re building of London Bridge, and they prayed that they might be heard by their Counsel against the Bill. The LORD MAYOR said, that as no public money had been advanced by Government for this great ob ject, it was therefore quite impossible that-with their limited funds they could accomplish this object ; and it would, therefore, in their opinion, prove extremely unwise that they should, like the man in Scripture, " begin to build without being able to finish." They wished, at least, to defer for' the present the rebuild ing of this Bridge, which, he believed, notwithstand ing the interested predictions of ingenious engineers, would last for at least another century. Sir G. COCKBURN was extremely anxious that the Lord Mayor should have attended that Com mittee, and he would have found that there were ample funds to build the New Bridge, and make the necessary approaches to it. He believed the only ob stacle to rebuilding the new Bridge arose from the parsimonious disposition of the Court of Aldermen. Mr. C. SMITH thought there was money enough to rebuild the Bridge.—Petition ordered to be printed. RIOT AT THE DUBLIN THEATRE. Colonel BARRY moved, that there should be laid before the House a copy of the Address from the Corporation of the City of Dublin to the Lord Lieu tenant, repecting the Riot at the Theatt e on the 14th of December. Also, for the Address presented on the same occasion by the Noblemen,. Gentlemen, and Inhabitants of the City of Dublin.—Granted. Mr. HUME said, that in the absence of his Ho nourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham), he moved that there should be laid before the House the Crown Books for the City of Dublin, from 1808 to 182'2 inclusive. Sir G. HILL suggested, that the purpose for which the Honourable Member was desirous of procuring those books could be more conveniently accom plished by authenticated extracts from them. - Mr. Hump differed altogether from the Honour able Baronet ; it was necessary to see the books them selves, in order to ascertain beyond mistake .the dif ferent charges made in impanelling Juries ; and, if be were informed rightly, those books contained an ac count also of the ex officio informations. .. • Mr. PLUNKETT really did not know what was meant by the'Crown Books. Mr. HUME.—I cannot but admire the very con-, venient ignorance of the Right Honourable Gentle man ; for it so happened, that not many nights since my Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham) moved for these books, and the Right Honourable Gentleman was here, and actually took a part in the discussion, declaring his most perfect readiness to give the information required, and not one word then escaped him as to his not knowing what was intended by the Crown Books. However, as it was too late to send off an order that night, he should defer a mo tion, to'which he understood from his Right Honour lable and Learned Friend there would be no objec tion, until his return to the House. SHRRIFF OF DUBLIN. Colonel BARRY then moved that the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Corn mitteee to inquire into the conduct of the She: iff of Dublin, should be read. The Order of the Day was then read. The SPEAKER left the Chair. The House went into Committee, Sir R. ilEarn.; in the Chair. Colonel BARRY was desirous of saying one or two words upon the probable termination of this pro tracted investigation—(Hear). The Hon. Baronet op posite (Sir J. Newport) had, in the exercise of perhaps a very just discretion, deemed it necessary to detain Mr. Mansfield here for further. examination; now, the fact was, that he was anxious to procure the attend ance of• a Mr. Whistler, an attorney; but as he was Sub-Sheriff, it was quite impossible he could attend until Mr. Mansfield returned to Dublin. He was, therefore, anxious to know if he would speedily be in a condition to allow Mr. Mansfield to return to Dublin? Sir J. NEWPORT, in answer to the Hon. Mem ber (Colonel Barry), thought that both Mr. Mansfield and Mr. Whistler should be present at the same time. Si, R. SHAW thought that such a course would be quite impracticable, as the duties of the Sub• Sheriff could not be managed in his absence, except by the Head Clerk. Colonel BARRY then called William Lewis, who stated himself to be an attorney. He went shortly after the riot at the Theatre to the Gaol of Newgate, to see if he could identify any of the prisoners as hay ing been engaged in the riots. tic pointed to a man who answered the descliptionof the person who threw the rattle. He din not know whether that man was Graham or not. By Mr. R. SMITIf —Would not undertake to say that G. Graham was not the man who threw the rattle. Colonel BARRY wished G. Graves to be recalled, but be did not appear. He then called Christopher Gology, but he was not in attendance either. Mr. Mor.re was then examined. The Grand Jury were sworn before they knew ;hat the rioters were not to be tried for a capital offence. Colonel BARRY then called Richard Farrens, but he .was not in attendance. Sir It. lIERON, the Chairman, desired the S:rjeant to keep the witnesses more in attendance. Mr. Pramcrar, examined by Colonel BA nny. He was certain some of the panel of the Petit .lury were challenged by the Crown; but he did not Te o llect how many, or whether B. Wadden wits the only one so challenged. Ile did not see the baring of the question. It. Graves 11.)w made his appearance.—He was examined by the GT and Jury, but they exhibited no impatience in that examination. Ile was heard throughout his examination with the greatest polite ness. He recollected h•aring that the persons round the Statue previous to t.:e 4th of November were dis persed by the military, ald snme of them wounded. He had seen an accou a of the riot at the Theatre published in an Alanatrack, which was printed by authority. It called the persons assassins who threw a log of timber. Ile did not see ate piece of timber thrown. He believed it was thrown, but the Alma flack' did not correctly describe it to call it a heavy log of timber. It was less than a watchman's rattle, and was such an one as persons going to a masque rade would use. It was never proposed to him to sign infOrmations against the rioters at the Theatre without having the informants before him. Many of thew itnesses were examined at the Castle, and not before the Police Magistrates. He never refused to lign any informations, or committals. He never was kialled on to sign any informations which he was not suffered to read. It never occurred to him, when at the Theatre, that there was a plan of assassination against the Lord Lieutenant. The Atkinsons had not been examined before the Grand Jury. By Dr. Luantwozom—The attention of the Ma gistrates had been called to the dressing of the Sta tue, by orders to that purpose. Did not know of any disturbance about the dressing of the Statue; till after the arrival of the King. Could not speak as to the fact, that some of the citizens of Dublin had been insulted, but believed they had. On a late oc casion witness had received particular instructions to preserve the peace. C. Gology had been a witness Before the Grand Jury of January, 1825. The Jury had conducted themselves as they ought. Had not been examined before the Petty Jury. Witness apprehended Henry Handwich. Witness said no one could be so daring as to throw a bottle at the Representative of Majesty. By Sir J. NEWPORT.—Witness was not a Member of any Orange Lodge. Mr. GOULBURN could not see the pertinency of many of the questions. W. Irwin was a peace officer, and was examined before the Grand, but not before the Petty Jut y. Had been treated with civility before the Grand Jury. Colonel BARRY here stated, that some of the wit nesses were not in attendance, One of them, a Mr. Brocas, had received so severe a beating in Dublin as to be unable to attend. He wished the examina tion of Mansfield to be finished, that Mr. Whistler might be able to attend. Sir J. NEWPORT was desirous that both Mans field and Mr. Whistler should be examined at the same time, sa hich he conceived could be done with- out any inconvenience to the public service. Colonel BARRY said, he should examine no more witnesses to-night, unless some of those already called should appear. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, if no more witnesses were to be called, the sooner the Chairman left the Chair the better. Benjamin Ricketts examined.—The panel witness gave in was that of the Corporation. Out of eighty fork on the panel, there ha 3 been only one Common Councilman, though the panel had been formed im mediately upon the election of the Corporation; wit ness recollects the trial of the Shears, but did not re member the nature of the panel. The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and ob tained leave to sit again on Wednesday. The Minutes of Evidence were laid on the table. On the motion of Mr. BROWNLOW, the Grand Jury panels of the City of Dublin for 1798 and 1808 were ordered to be laid before the House. NEWFOUNDLAND. The CHANCELLOR of the.EXCHEQUER rose to move that the House should resolve itself into a Committee on the Customs Duties Act. • Mr. HUME asked what had been done since last Session for the Colony of Newfoundland, an Island as large as Ireland, with 100,000 inhabitants, which *as still an anomaly in the circle of British Colonies ? His Majesty's Ministers had disregarded all the re presentations of the inhabitants, notwithstanding their frequent applications for relief and redress. Why was there not a proper system of justice established there, instead of the present temporising one? Cap tains and Lieutenants were appointed to expound the laws of England, as if on board ships. The inhabit ants had petitioned the House of Lords, in 1821, complaining of those grievances which were most harassing to them ; such as obliging the persons who complained to suffer twelve or fifteen lashes, by or der of the Commanding Officers. Judge Thorpe, who in St. John's had given universal satisfaction, and who was thorQughly conversant with the affairs of that colony, was now in this country, and, if • the House thought proper, could be examined before a Committee. The regulations of the CourtsiofJus tice there ought to be amended. Was it not 'im proper that one brother should be allowed to dis pense justice to his brother? The dispensations of the laws there reduced many to the lowest misery, under the semblance of justice. The examples . of ' the horrid effects of that system were too frequent.— The internal regulations of the colony too required amelioration. Why were so many ships of war kept there? To dispense justice? Ridiculous. Would it not be infinitely mote advantageous to have a re , gular civil government there established ? Instead of giving encouragement to the Fisheries of New foundland, the Governm .taseia the importation of food into that colony, so that the Americans were enabled to out-fi.-11 that colony. He thought that a Committee ouoht to bentpoointed to take the whiYe of the grievnnces of the colony into consideration, . . There Wad been various Petitions presented to the . (louse, which called for consideration. There were too parties there holding conflicting opinions, which ought to he thoroughly examined. The negligence,. too, which had been paid to fines levied, demanded an investigation. The state of property was such, that no colonist could now sell to advantage, in con sequence of its being under the jurisdiction of the Governor; in short, the whole system required to be reversed. Ile therefore hoped the House would ap. plot a Committee to enter into a full examination of it up stairs. He hoped there would be an inquiry in. I stir uted into the nature of the protection afforded to this colony, and the encouragement given to its fisheries. He saw ro reason for the appointment of vessels of war to protect our fishery there, any more than it was necessary for the Americans to give a similar protection to their trade. On the whole, he : !loped that Administration would not oppose this in.: ~wiry, as in ten or fourteen days he hoped the Ho use would base the fullest information on this sulsieet..... lie then moved that a S:Aect Committee be 4pp/doted to investigate the state of the Revenue, the Filseries, and the Laws in Newfoundland. Mr.WILNIOT-HORTON con idered that the HO -. Member was not now in a situation to demand a Committee to inquire into the qate of this c o l osi y. Because a question had been a•ked by that Honour able Member respecting a Public Officer's conduct. and would not be answered, that would not be a fair season for calling a Committee on all occasions. It had been intended to do away with the Surrogate Courts, and, so far, there was no necessity , feu ( a m S;:.. t lect Committee. It had been argued , that as Prince Edward's I-land had a local Legislature, o Newfoundland to have one. Now, it appeared that Prince Edward's Island was long since tiled of it s local Legislature ; and that the people of Newfound land, from their habits in summer, attending to their fisheries, and from its want of roads in the winter, could not possibly attend the Sittings of such a Le gislature. The great object of complaint no rby the Petitioners was the Surrogate Courts, which it had been determined to abolish by the Act now intended to be introduced. Nothing could be more satisfactory than the opinion entertained by the Colonists of Chid Justice Forbes' conduct and judgment, as expresed by the Address of the inhabitants of St. John's; yet that very able and intelligent Judge had ad mitted that it was altogether. inexpedient to intro. duce there such an independent local Legislature. He did believe, that when this Bill was submitted to the House, it would be found that this act of the Le. gislature would provide for the grievances com plained of an adequate remedy. As to the case of Mr. Holland, he was not prepared on a sudden to . meet the charge made against the individual coo. cerned. The Hon. Member ought first to have moved for papers before he attempted to inculpate a public officer on a vague charge, and call on the House to appoint a Committee to sit for fourteen days on the subject. He denied that proclamations of the Go- • vernor were now considered to have the force of law; and he believed it would be found that the chars:cur of the Governor, Sir Charles Hamilton,. was above suspicion or censure. There were now no restrictions On the cultivation of the soil. On the licenses, be should only observe that new arrangements were in tended to be adoi!_ed as to licenses and the charges thereon, but it would be endless and unjust if any Member should be entitled to a Committee, in every case where he asserted that certain charges bad come to his knowledge, without giving those at home, who were the natural protectors of official mon, in opportunity cf previously knowing what their notate was, so as to be able to meet and refute such charges . in their place iii Parliament. He thought enpugk had been said to chew that no such Committee was necessary, and informed the House it was his inten tion to introduce a Bill for consolidating the Acts re lative to Newfoundland, in which the intended new Act should be introduced, both of which, after hav ing been printed, he should propose should lie over until the next Session, to enable the parties interested to judge of its propriety. Mr. M. A TAYLOR said, that all the grievances complained of had been admitted by the Hon. Colo nial Secretary, and yet that Hon. Gentleman refused a Committee, and begged them to suspend all in quiry until he had brought in his Bill for consolidating all the laws relative to this Colony. This Colony bad been now long declining; the origin of this decline was the baneful treaty with America, which bad re duced her to beggary, instead of commanding, as she once did, the trade in fish to the shores of the Ma diterranean, for which she brought back a return is money and bullion, and drawing from this coven a constant supply of our native produce, for saki* she paid by her own successful industry. Under Id these circumstances, he could not see bow the Wiese could refuse to accede to the proposed Committee. Captain GORDON said he would put it to as .. man of honour, as a gentleman, whether, if . 1 111 ' charges produced were founded on fact, they would not be considered as affecting private charaiter?- - Such charges should be first inquired into, and the truth ascertained, before they were mentioned hid* House. Anonymous publications were not tulleilto authority. The charge of having misapplied &feed° .. was, he felt confident, entirely without fotindatiadi Mr. BRIGHT thought sufficient grounct-wai table . out for granting a Committee. The House inultil. otherwise know whether or not any. abuses clime& He 'hoped, when the Bill was brought in, thattespa son would vote for it unless he could pat his hairdo his heart and say he understood it. There waved one Colony belonging to the Empire, of the stait society in which they were so entirely ignorant.. , : object in voting for inquiry was, not to asentaitutli.: had done the wrong, but what had been done • Mr. BUTTERWORTH supported the mode& vc' Sir J. NEWPORT said, he doubted wheat/ma*. lonial Legislature would be either practicable-to 4111 ' airable. He thought the remainder of thisfisuive ,could not be better employed than in inquiring we] be boo the state of the Colony. They would t hen prepared to discuss the Bill next Session. It waater . cli . Ow e 1 1 . 1 * ni p ° e s t! e i b l y i e f t t o on fo i rm a a de c rat r e ect in o . p th in a i t on lil o o n u s se u , • e% • 41.3i i sk grounds he should vote for a Comm i t tee. Mr. HUME said a few words hi reply. Fie cept what he hinsAlf. investigated, a having brought any charge against thenaGoifears: 14 , th be wl be on di! HI ne do i ll WI th tit w di