Star. — London, England, 1821-05-26 00:00:00

1, 4 A 1.. complaining that he had been unjustly dismissed from the Ake of At rney4„ieneral, which he ld some Years ago in S Licone. The held some years ago in Sierra Leone. The Petitioner imputed his dismissal to the circumstance of his having forwarded a Memorial from the Inhabitants of Sierra Leone, which contained charges against Governor Maxwell.—The Petition having been read, Mr. WARRE stated, that as this Petition coin• prised an attack upon the character of Governor Maxwell, he thought it his duty to remind the House that an award had been made by a Court of Justice against Governor Maxwell; but so peculiar were the circumstances of the case that his Hon. and Learned Friend, the Member for Winchilsea, rose in his place ih this frlouse, and expressed his opinion that some means ought to be adopted to save Governor Max well tr..ni the expenses which had thus devolved upon him. He wished to know what had been done on that Mr. tIOULBURN confirmed what the Hon. Gen tlemai, ha just stated, and said, that in consequence of the j eculiarities of the case, the Government had taken upon itself the payment of the award. With respect to the present Petitione:, delicacy toward his present situation induced him to forbear from say ing all that was within his knowledge concerning the circumstances of his case. Mt. C. HUTCIIINSON bore - a high testimony to the character of Dr.. Thorpe, who had been much respected in his profession. Mr. SCARLETT said, that he had been concerned in the ac ;ion which was brought by a very honourable man againA Governor Maxwell, and in which one thousand pounds damages were given against the Goverimr ; hut at the same time he felt it his duty to say, that nothing appeared on the trial to implicate the character of the Governor. After a few words from Mr. GOLILBURN, the Peti tion was ordered to be printed. CRIMINAL LAW. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH brought up the Report of the Committee on the Forgery Punishment Mitigation Bill, which being received, he said he had some amendments to propose ; but, before he should, do so, he would beg the House to recollect the situ.' ation in which this Bill now stood. It was agreed to, in principle at least, by what he thought a very considerab.e majority in a House of two hundred and fift% Members; and the Members who thought that it was fit that the punishment for forgery ought to be reduced, comprised several hankers and mer catntile men, the most eminent in this metropolis, and therefore is the whole commercial world. He did not state this for the purpose of drawing any infer ence which would prevent any Member from dis cussing this BM at any of its future stages, but to thew, that in proposing the amendments which he was about to offer, he had deferred to the judgment and pinions of a majority of those who supported the Bib. To their opinions he had sacrificed his own; and though be felt that in this instance he made important sacrifices, yet he felt it also to be his duty to do so, in order to meet their views. He should now propose those amendments, in order that they might be printed with the 13111, and placed in the hands tit Members. He would further propose, that if an ; tion. Members had amendments to offer, they would bring them forward on the third reaiing i .f the Bill, when the discussion nigh: be taken on the whole Mil. With this understanding, the Mn. and Learned Member concluded with moving, that for geries in cases of personal property, marriage entries and licenses, and last wills, codicils, or other testa mentary papers, be added to the exceptions of the Bill. Mr. CBIPPS conceived that forgeries of country banker; notes should also be added to the exceptions. It was well known that country bankers were not in the habit of refusing to pay notes which bore even the semblance of their own, because, it they did so, their credit would be destroyed. It was, therefore, so much the more material that they should be pro tected from the depredations which they might suffer from crimes of this description. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH suggested to the Hon. Member to propose his Amendment on the third reading. Mr. GRENFELL concurred with the Hon. Mem- ber for Cirencester, that the country bankers notes required protection. Mr. J. MARTIN said, that with respect to the' punishment for forgery, perhaps transportation for life might be deemed sufficient. Mr. H. G. BENNETT said he did not consider! , transportation any punishment at all. Imprisonment, with hard labour, would be much more effectual. Mr. A. BAKING said, he saw no reason for the exception in this Bill in favour of Bank of England notes, if it was not equally extended to others. The principle of a milder punishment being , more effec tual for diminishing crime, was the principle upon which the whole measure was founded. Now, if that were so, it must produce the effect generally ; and, therefore, he did not see why any exception should remain, if the principle were a true one in its opera tion. He agreed that transportation was an inade quate punishment, and, if no other punishment was substituted, he, for one, would vote against the Bill. Mr. J. SMITH confessed that transportation did not appear to him adequate; he thought that impri sonment and hard labour would be much more likely to repress the crime of forgery. Mr. LOCKHART was proceeding to make some ob jections to the Bill, when Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH suggested, that the Hon. Member might more advantageously defer his observations to the third reading. He should only add his hope, that if this Bill, with its amended ex ceptions, should be found effectual, the Legislature ould afterwards lessen the number of the exceptions; and, under this hope, he moved them with the less reluctance. After a few words from Mr. J. MARTIN, Mr. PIERCE recommended an exception for trans fers of Stock. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH moved, in conse quence, in exception with respect to transfers of Bank Stock.—The several Amendments were agreed to. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH then moved another Amendment, making the punishment imprisonment for not less than three years, and not exceeding fourteen. Mr. A. BARING said, he should rather see the Bill pass with a positive punishment of fourteen years.— This he conceived no more than a sufficient punish ment, considering that the crime was previously pu capitally. Mr. ARBUTHNOT explained the manner in which' the bills of the Foreign Commissariat Departments were drawn and paid, and which, he contended, was the most expeditious and practicable mode devised. Mr. BARING asked why the Accounts were not clearly and explicitly drawn out in detail? He wished to know also why the horses taken in Egypt, in 1801, by Lord Hutchinson, should be remunerated for this year? Also the stores taken at Tarragonit by Lord William Bentinck ? Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, that the practice of re munerating Officers for meritorious services had been an old one. The remuneration could not be given until the value of the horses had been ascertaineJ.-- He was willing to shew every Paper to the Hon. Member, if he would make application to him for that purpose at the Treasury. Lord PALMERSTON said, that the practice was , to give all the prizes taken by the Navy to the sailors. Why should not the same practice take place in re lation to the Army? Why at Tarragona, when half the prize-money had been given to the Navy, should the soldiers be deprived of their share? The prizes always belonged to the Crown, but they were usually given to the captors, as a reward. The bills were stated in the accounts as they had been paid, and not as they had been drawn. Sir J. YORKE asked why the break-waters of Heligoland should have cost £BOOO, which had been ' paid to Benjamin Smith for that purpose? Mr. GOULBURN said that the Military, Naval, and Commissariat expenses %, ere . included in that grant. Heligoland was not in future to he a place of expense to England. Di. LUSHINGTON expressed his detestation of the system of licensing during the war. Heligoland had cost much, and it ought not to have been le- rained after the war. Mr. GOULBURN thought it would have been in expedient to have given up that place until the secu rity for peace had been established as now. Mr. HUME asked, why the Army Contracts for provisions abroad should have cost more during the last ten years than the Contracts for the Navy? Would not the Navy Board therefore be usefully employed in purchasing provisions both for the Army and Navy ? He thought, that it would be so. One establishment solely would be a great saving. With regard to the prize-money, why had it not been granted at the proper time to the Army ? Where did the cause of delay lie? Two-thirds of the persons who deserved it, were perhaps no mote; delay, was therefore highly improper. By a regulation made in 1764., no public money was to be expended on public works abroad unless it was absolutely neces sary ; and yet there had been expenditure to a large amount without any previous estimate. He had ob jected when the Army Estimates were before the House to two Inspectors of Army Clothing, and yet now they were called upon to vote a considerable sum for two persons filling these offices. There wa, an item for training the Militia of Trinidad ; be wished to know why that charge was introduced, since all the other Colonies paid for that service themselves? He had also wished to know why they were called upon in the Army Extraordinaries to pay 1.7000 for the expenses of Guernsey and Jersey? . There was also a charge for the lonian Islands for the Militia, although there was not a man kept up. This establishment then was only for the patronage of the Officers. If there was such facility in obtain ing money, if the Authorities abroad could draw bills on England, and his Majesty's Paymaster-General would accept to an uniinnted amount, there would be no end to the colonial expenditure. There was a charge of eleven thousand pounds for the expenses of managing the Dutch Loan; he was at a loss to know what this had to do with Ai my Estraordinaries. There was also 1:2,800 charged for private Secre taries to the Governors of Colonies. He should pro pose to strike out this from the Army Extraordinaries, because these duties were of a civil nature; indeed, he thought they were altogether unnecessary, but if their services were indispensable, the charge ought to have been placed to the proper account. He had one observation to make respecting the charges for building a house for Bonaparte, in the island of St. Helena. He had heard that the Commissioners de puted to watch Bonaparte by Russia, Austria, and Prussia, were paid by the English Commissary. Was that the case ? He concluded by signifying his in tention to move an Amendment, reducing the pro posed vote £36,000, unless he should hear explana tions to induce him to alter his opinion. Mr. GOULBURN said, the British Government did not pay the expenses of the foreign Commis sioners. The charges for St. Helena were for the completion of the building and additional furniture. He admitted there was no good reason why the pri vate Secretaries of Civil Governors should be intro duced in the Army Extraordinaries. All he could say was, that it had been the usual practice. He de fended necessity of those Officers at considerable length, and contended that they were indispensable. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that the foreign Commissioners stationed at St. Helena were paid by their respective Governments ; two of them had been withdrawn. Lord PALMERSTON explained why the:Chief In spectors of Army Clothing were included in the Army Extraordinaries. Colonel GRUSSET said the Militia of Guernsey and Jersey amounted to 6,000 men, that the charges alluded to were for the Inspectors, and for the whole military expenses of the Islands. Mr. HUME, after a few observations, said that he should press his Amendment. The question was put, that, instead of £1,000,000, a sum not exceeding £964,000 should be allowed for Army Extraordinartes. After a few words from Mr. HUSKISSON and Mr. GIPPS, Mr. MABERLY said, he thought the statements were most unintelligible. He knew that the particu lars could not be made up by the 28th March, when the annual accounts were required to be presented to the House ; but they might be detailed by the 4th of June, and the particulars set forth under each head. He thought the Commissariat might perform the du. ties of the Colonial Agents, and that expense mig ht be saved. He also thought that the Inspectors of Army Clothing Were useless. Mr. ARBUTHNOT observed, that the sum of £1,000,000 was intended to make up deficiencies in votes of money granted by the House last year. With respect to the 'remaining sum of £lOO,OOO on the score of Extraordinaries, he hoped that CI .v t , z , :sent would be able next year, to furni.li the Hut s . with the precise items of each of these heads of ex. penditure—(Hear.) Sir C. LONG said, he felt himself obliged to th e Hon. Member for Aberdeen ter his advice. As to the services of the Military Secretary, the met its of that Officer were before the Committee, and would be proportionably remunerated. He trusted, from the regulations which had been adopted since th e commencement of his career as Paymaster, and the several Bills he had brought in to facilitate the pay. ment of Prize-money to the Army, that no j ust ground of complaint now existed as to the actual delay which at present occurred in the I:3quie u t o f Prize-money. Colonel DAVIES bore testimony to the readiness with which the prize-money for Waterloo, as well a s in other cases, had been disbursed. Mr. BENNETT said, he was determined to adopt the system of reduction of expenditure. He tilt in. disposed to giant the sum of £131,000 to M.Kensie, as well as to the totals of severa. triter grants now proposed. To the grant for Net s out h Wales he had the strongest objection, because the country was supporting convict. abroa,t at an e:penie of £231,000 annually, in a state t‘ bitch the Solicitor- General had five }ears ago coillesaed h.id cea>ed to be one of punishment, but was rather a pia,:e devoted to the encouragement of clime. Under these circum stances, he should move that the sum now demanded should be reduced to £900,000• _ Mr. HUME explained, and the Amendment w withdrawn. _ . . Mr. H. G. BENNETT then moved, that the grant should be reduced to the sum of 4:900,000. Mr. M A BERLEY thought the Amen,.!meat was objectionable as being too genet al, and recommended that some more spastic seduction of the sum, appli. cable to particular services should be proposed :is mere likely to effect the object of reduction of expense consistent with the wellare of the public service. Mr. ARBUTHNOT replied. The House then divided, when there appeared_ For the Amendment - - - 33 For the original - - - b 4 Maj- jority - . — 52 Mr. ARBUTHNOT then moved, that 1.:101,5135 should be granted for defraying the expense of the Commissariat Set vice lot the present year. Mr. MABERLY said he could not permit this grant to pass without making that motion winch he had some time ago promised to submit whe:• this grant should be before the House. He was certain that the Storekeeper-General's Depat Emma e as, at though a very expensive department, one which might very well 'be dispensed with ; not that ne was dis r .osed to do away with this department alto g ether, for the stores must be taken care of by some one, but he should propose that the kecpit,g of the stores should be transferred to the Ordnance Depai tm. nt. He fore. saw there would be an objection to this t an4er, cause the patronage of the Storekeeper s Department would be transferred t rom the Treasury to the Sheer of the Ordnance; yet he di d hope, upon public grounds, the Treasury would relinquish this trifling addition of patronage, when, as he conceived, it would prose a saving of nearly £2.0 per cent. annually, on the amount of stores deposited in the public stores under the system at present pursued There eas a charge to the amount of £34,000 for the hali-pay ;he de. Nwtment, and another of £61,000 for the the pay. These were heavy enough in themselves, but the es pense he was anxious to diminish, was: that ari,ing from the present system of maintaining separate store• house ~ wharfs, and crai.es, throughout this country, as well as in the Colonies, whilst the service of the Ordnance had in all these stations similar stores, wharfs, and cranes, applicable to the vine service, namely, that of landing and shipping every possible description of stores. Under these circumstances, he trusted the House would be of opinion, that the busi• ness of both these Departments might, with great propriety, be conducted by one alone; and he wad opinion, that as the service of the Ordnance cord not be dispensed with, that the lesser should merge in the. greater and more important, and that, in fa ture, there should be but one great and general depot for stores, which should be concentrated in the Ord. nance Department. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, the Storekeeper's DP partment was much reduced. The Hon. Member IP fended, at some length, the existing arrange Government had already effected considerabeTed: tions, and had every disposition to avail themselves of any opportunity for further reduction. Mr. HUME said, that not one shilling had bees saved this year on the Commissariat Establishment. The stores purchased from 1816 to 1820, amounted only to £312,000, while the Establishment for Wog care of these stores cost £.57,700 a-year. In 1814 the whole number of Commissaries was 800, and now, in time of peace, there remained in commis in 250, at an expense of £61,000. He thought Oa allowance to Mr. Herries and others, on the half-pnri quite exorbitant. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, that no less than 0 Clerks had been dismissed. With respect to the m's. ber of Commissaries, so anxious was the Governmess to reduce them, that the pay of Commissariat OF cers, which, in 1816, amounted to £46,000, was to duced to £36,000. With respect to Mr. Berries, he had been a long time in the service. He was the private Secretary of Mr. Percival, and the perst with whom he most intimately communicated in sg his financial plans. He would not have resign his situation as Comptroller of Army Accounts , na a v he not supposed that the place he accepted was be permanent. . Mr. WARD said, the annual expendau • r e in ..-- Store Department was only £45,000, by which fire million pounds of stores were to be administered- "_ After a few words from Mr. BENNETT , M r. WA ' Mr. ARBUTHNOT, and Mr. N. CALVERT, Colonel DAVIES proposed as an Amend:o/ 4,0 j duction of £4,258 from the sum originally prop ose , The Committee then divided on the Amend ' Ayes Noes On the re-opening of the Gallery, Mr•Bri ( " Eg iraS proposing a Vote for the Barrack Department. Mr. N. CALVERT opposed the item altogethere Mr. PETER MOORE said, he should adher e the course which he had laid down, and should fore move that the Chairman leave the Chair an d s re' port progress—(Crien No, me). gvel After some observations from Mr. Amer • Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH did not iviblt to be' pertinacious, but be thought it would be wise to leave some discretion to the Judge, or, at least, to the Crown. Dr. LUSHINGTON expressed his opinion, that ten ) ears' imprisonment and hard labour was an ade quate, and no more than an adequate punishment; he wished to leave no discretion to the Judge. He moved an Amendment to that effect. Lord LONDONDERRY thought, that this was a stage at which the discussion could not be advan tageously lengthened—( Hear, hear). Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH withdrew his exception, and Dr. LUSHINOTON'S Amendment was agreed to. Sir J. MACKINTOSH, in compliance with a sug gestion from the Learned. Lord Advocate, proposed a proviso, that this Bill should not extend to Scotland. Mr. CRIPPS suggested, that as this Bill was one of great importance, it should be recomm tted— (Hear, hear). He could not let the Bill go forth to the country without adding an exception as to any bill or promissory note of Country Banks. The SPEAKER suggested that the Amendment might be deferred to the third reading, as, under the understanding on which this Bill was now considered, as also because they were now gone through the whole of the Bill itself, no debate could be taken which would have a decisive result, since no motion such as the Honourable Member's could now be made. Mr. MABERLY and Mr. LOCKHART concurred in thinking that the Amendment last proposed ought to be adopted. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said the question now was as to the , roviso for Scotland. Dr. PHILLIMORE deprecated the protraction of the debate, under the circumstances in which this Bill stood. Mr. M A RRYAT insisted on his right to move any Amendment now which he should thank proper. Mr. W. WYNN and Mr. BRIGHT spoke to order. The SPEAKER said, that as they had gone through the Bill, and were adding a proviso to at. the Amendment of the Hon. Member could not be put. After a few words from Mr. GIPPS and Mr. LOCK- . HART, the proviso for Scotland was agreed to. Mr. CRIPPS wished to propose that a clause should be added to the Bill, comprising the exception which he had mentioned. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH, to avoid any possi ble difficulties, said he v‘ould agree to the recom mitment of the Bill—(Hear, hear). The Report was then ordered to be taken into fur ther consideration on Monday next. SUPPLY. On the motion of Mr. ARBUTHNOT, the House re solved itself into a Committee of Supply. He then moved, " That it is the opinion of this Committee, that a sum not exceeding one million should be granted to his Majesty, for defraying the Extraordi nary Expenses of the Army t a- the year 1821.' 1 Colonel DAVIES took occasion to make some ob servations upon the different items contained in the Estimates. The expense charged for supplying foreign stations with provisions might, he thought, be greatly reduced. Hon. Gentlemen were aware that rum and other article, were imported to this country from America, and then again sent out to foreign stations. He should be glad to know why the contract for these articles could not be made upon the spot where they were produced, instead of going the roundabout way which was now practised ? The same remark would apply to the salt provisions which were sent out, and which might be provided at less expense and more convenience if an establishment were set on foot for the purpose in that part of the country to which they were sent. The convicts at New South Wales were in a better condition than the troops on foreign stations. A great saving might be effected by introducing rice into the rations given to the con victs. He found also in the Estimatei an item to enable the Right Hon.W. Huskisson to meet demand , from the Island of Cey'cr, of #.:IO,O{X). lie mentioned this to demand some explanation. Ile h id more than once animadverted on the useless expense of Riding Establishments, and he found in the present Estimate charges of £i7o, £770, and £2OO, which had been paid to Colonel Peters, on account of the Riding school at Pimlico. Whatever might have been the utility of that establishment in the first instance, it was now perfectly useless, as it appeared that, so long as two years ago, the purpose for which the school had been erected (that of providing masters who might teach the new system to the different regiments) had been fully accomplished. Mr. J. MABERLY wished for some explanation as to the account due to Government from the EAst India Company, for the sums advanced for the pay ment of the troops, and which had five years ago amounted to £1,433,000. The only settlement which had been made, he believed, had been in 1792, when, some disputes having taken place, the accounts had been settled. It was important to settle those ac counts regularly. It was also important to take into consideration the half-pay of the Army. He trusted that these subjects would be attended to, and that Ministers would, as speedily as possible, bring the East India Company to a settlement of accounts. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, that with regard to what had fallen from the gallant Officer (Colonel Davies), he would say, that he had done all in his power to render the accounts intelligible, and since be had presented those accounts to the House it had not oc curred to him that it would be possible to render them more easily understood. The House would re collect that these were not estimates of expenses.— The Honourable Member then proceeded to shew, that the whole of the sums objected to had been partly applied to the Navy Victualling and to the Ordnance Departments, and to Chelsea Hospital, and repaid by them. There was no objection to lay before the House any papers necessary. An alteration had been proposed by an Officer of short standing, but yet something might be done to regulate the difficul ties which might exist. The Medical Board had stated that the rations were fully fit for every station. Economy was also practised to every practicable ex tent. He would examine the allegations of the Hon. Member relative to salt beef, as well as any practi cable improvement which might be suggested. Colonel DAVIES a.ked, why the convicts at Bo tany Bay received a better ration than the troops at home ? Mr. BARING, wished to know why these Ac counts were kept so? It was impossible to under stand them, for they were kept like the check-book of a Banker, in which everything was entered as the persons made their appearance and demanded money. ~. ~~