Star. — London, England, 1814-11-26 00:00:00

was to be extinguished also. Mr. Whitbread re membered. in the early part of the Revolution, when G. neral Dumourier first came over to the English party, the event was announced in the most pompous manner ; he was extolled by Prince Cobourg as one of the greatest characters of the day—nothing could exceed his generosity and magnanimity ; but, next d ty, when it was found that his army had not de serted R ath him, the contrast was striking—he was loci ieil and vilified as the most infamous of mankind, with whom it was unfit that any communication should be held. Mr. Fox well said upon the occa sion, that it seemed as if General Dumourier, with hi, power, had also lost his character and virtue.— Such seemed to be 'he case with the King of Naples, lett it would ill become the House of Commons to vote a sum of money, the object of which was to for the honour of the country ; and were it now pos s..e,, it would be well if the resolution could be with +K n. Having obtained this information, he thought i right to disclose it to Ministers, that, if they were I:, ignorance, they might avail themselves of it ; those who had kept them in the dark, ought, hereafter, to be s..iled to a severe account. There was still another suoj Oct, upon which he wished to put a question, even though he scarcely hoped to obtain an answer, tor, if it were not injurious to the public service, the r. ply might be detrimental to private convenience.— Lerd Castlereagh had now been absent some months, and nothing had been done at the Congress. The question he wished to put, whether up to the 25th of reoriih any thins had been determined at Vienna, el/ire than had been arranged on the same day of the ;,:ece ding month ? .Was the. general pacification of Europe one step nearer then than at the time of the departure of the British Plenipotentiary ? If no pro wess had yet been made, there might be good ground to hope that the proclamation of Prince Repnin, re gardieg Sariny, was not genuine, and that the fate of Poland was not yet decided. In the catalogue of mighty works to accomplish, there was none of greeter magnitude than the question, whether that unhappy country was to be formed into an indepen dent kingdom ? Certain it was, that at some period or other it would be independent, and it would then .take signal vengeance upon those who had been the authors of its calamities, if satisfaction were not vo luntarily made. From sources of information not official, and liable to contradiction, it was stated that the Emperor Alexander had added an additional grace to his character by supporting the claims of Yol.ind to independence ; and from the same source it _was asserted, singular as it might appear, that his antagonist in this project was the Ambassador of Ghat Britain. (Hear, hear.) He trusted as fer vently that the latter part of the intelligence was un fbuoded, as that the fiirst part of the relation was eetiblished in truth. If the Emperor Alexander, be sides toe splendid triumphs lie had gained, had added this fresh glory to his character, in what a disadvan tageous contrast must the Noble Lord appear, who was resisting this plan of liberty and happiness ? (Hear, hear.) With regard to the subject of the ho. nourable engagement with Naples, is Ministers Were in possession of the intelligence which he had sup plied, and had in the teeth et it required the vote for a subsidy to the King of Sicily, he would arraign them at the bar of their country. (Hear, hear.) The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that whether it were the second, third, or tenth time, that the Honourable Member had put the ques tiens just stated, he did not know, but upon many of the subjects, he could, from motives of public po licy, give no information—(Hear.) With regard to Naplcs, he would assert that Ministers had done no thing to which the most scrupulous could reasonably object—(Hear.)—Supposing we had entered into a negociation binding this country to a future treaty With . Naples, and had also agreed to fulfil our engage ment with Sicily by the payment of a part of the annual subsidy, and that a war existed between Na ples and Sicily, still not the smallest reflection could be cast upon the good faith and honour of the country. Had the Gentleman on the other side never heard of a case, where two Powers, being at war, one of them was engaged in an alliance with a third, which third Power was bound to afford a certain species of assist ance, which was not to be considered an infringement of the amity subsisting between it and the Power to which it gave no such aid ? Many examples of the kind might be given. At the Treaty of Amiens Spain was in close alliance with France, but the Bri ti.h Government did not hold it to be an offensive and defensive treaty, and admitted that Spain should give to France certain pecuniary assistance, besides w:,ich a body of troops, to a stated amount, was to be aff rded, but we stipulated, that any aid supplied be yond the stipulation should be held to amount to a declaration of war, and we had so considered it when the Spanish fleet was placed under French com mand. In the expedition of Bonaparte into Russia the same czse existed. Austria was allowed to fur. MA thirty thousand men, by express stipulation, with -004 any infringement of the Treaty between that Power and Russia. These instances were exactly in puimes.applied to the situation of this country with regard to Naples.—(Hear, hear 1)—If Graft Britain engaged in direct hostilites against Naples, the most scrupulous , casuists could not contend that we were guilty of any infraction of existing engagements. He segretted that these premature discussions of subjects upon which no information could be given, were forced upon the House, particularly those that re spected the srcgress of events at Vienna. As to what had been said upon the adjournment of the House, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) believed that it could be accomplished without any inconvenience to the public service, since the House would be re-as sembled sufficiently eaely for the discussion .of the great question to which reference had been made, as to the continuance of the Property Tax. He con cluded by referring to the Statute 86 Geo. 111. c. 65. to skew that the Commissioners had acted regularly in issuing the notices mentioned by Mr. Whitbread. It required that they should always be for two years, in order to prevent confusion. •Mr. PONSONBY had never heard a more un happy illustration than that given by the Right Ho nourable Gentlemen, when he alluded to the Treaty of-Araiens, and the Conduct of this country towards Spain. An hundred cases of that kind might be produced, .but they unfortunately did not bear upon the question before * House. Here was a treaty between Atuaria and Naples, l;iy which Me farmer guarantees his dominions . to Murat ;. g.pg4o4 accedes. to the treaty, and declares herself bound by it; the King of Sicily issues a proclamation, in which he de clares that becomes to wrest from the present posses sor the kingdom of Naples, to dethrone Joachim, whom this country had promised to maintain ; and yet Great Britain gave to Sicily the very means she was to employ to defeat the object, the honour of the former was pledged to accomplish. Had this the slightest resemblance to the case put by the Right Honourable Gentleman ?—(Hear, hear.) —Wh at con sistency was there in such conduct ? He (Mr. P.) had said, on a former day, that this very money voted to Sicily might be employed against any of our Allier, but now it appeared that it might be used even against ourselves, for if Sicily persisted in her de mand, we were bound in honour to take the field to support the King of Naples, and our own money would be paid to the troops against whom we should then be contending—(hear.) The Right Honourable Gentleman would make no disclosures regarding the Congress at Vienna—(Hear, from the Chancellor of Me Exchequer). Perhaps the Noble Lord, our Plenipo tentiary, took care that no secrets should be told, by entrusting Ministers with none—(Hear, hear). What ever might be the fact, certainly the Chancellor of the Exchequer was the most cautious Minister that had ever occupied the Treasury Beta, and if all his se crets turned out to as much disadvantage as that re garding Naples, it was not wonderful: that he should be very anxious to maintain a.tottt:silopce. —(Hear, hear.) Our discordant treaties InithNeples and Sicily seemed the perfection of llamas absurdity. The House were told that a day would arrive, not of ac countand retribution, but of justification and triumph. Mr. Ponsonby hoped sincerely that such a time would come, for, since the cause of Great Britain, from the beginning of the war, had been that of justice and of liberty, he trusted that, to the last, we should main tain our character and vindicate our proceedings. Mr. BRAGGE BATHURST said, that he con sidered that as praise which had been uttered as cen sure, that the present Ministers were most cautions not to make unnecessary disclosures. The situation of public affairs was not at all different, now that the political arrangements were making in Congress, at Vienna, from what they had been when the measures were taking for a pacification in the heart of France. The House, and the Gentlemen opposite him, had then most properly reposed confidence in his Majes ty's Ministers ; and it was plain that no negotiations could, with honour or advantage, be carried on, if thy were subject to partial examinations in detail, b} questions put across the table. It was on this general pound, and not from any peculiar circumstances, that answers were refused to questions which had been put. The circumstances in which the House were placed were well known ; the Noble Lord em ployed in the negotiation had been appointed with the approbation of every one, and especially of the Gentlemen opposite him, both to negotiate in France and to assist at the Congress. The time would come when all things respecting which questions were at present improperly asked, would be explained ; and it would appear that all due efforts had been made; and that it this country was not successful in all that it could have wished, it had fully succeeded to its just share of influence en the continental arrangements. In answer to what had been said respecting King Joachim of Naples, supposing all had happened that had been stated, the war which was carried on by Naples might as well be supposed to be for the pur pose of dethroning the King of Sicily, as that carried en by the King of Sicily could be said to be for the purpose of dethroning him. There was nothing in the existing war between those two Powers different from any ordinary war, which it was not contended would preclude any Power at peace with one of the bellige rents paying subsidy, or even affording a contingent to the other. We had bound ourselves to protect one ' of the powers while at war ; that the character of the war was changed was not a sufficient reason that we should withdraw it. . Mr. PONSONBY explained. He had meant to shew, that having granted a specific possession to one man, we subsidize another to destroy that possession which we guaranteed. Mr. LAMBTON said, that there was sufficient ground for the House to withdraw that confidence in Ministers, the continuance 'of which the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bathurst) claimed.— There was sufficient reason to withdraw it, because their present conduct was directly opposite to the measures of the last year—because the declarations of moderation which attended the triumphant march of the .Allies in the last year, was most different from the acts of rapine and aggression of the club of con federated Monarchs at Vienna • wive had met, not to watch over the interests of ! Enrope, but as con temners of public faith and justice—as the spoliators of Saxony, and the oppressors of Norway. Th? Government had been accessaries to the acts of in justice committed; and after these act had been committed,it was ton much that his Majesty's tongue tied Ministers should be sheltered under Parliamen tary confidence. He should require some reasons before he voted the supplies demanded, besides the assertion that the disposal was in able and responsible hands. As to their ability lie had some doubts, and the responsibility seemed to rest on one Right Honour. able Head. The waste and prodigality which had been complained of, was not compensated by the scanty information afforded. _ _ _ _ _ _ Mi. HAMMERSLEY thought the House might well retract the confidence which had been granted to Ministers, from the facts which were generally known. There was matter enough to arraign them, without waiting the issue of the negociation. He was not pleased to find fault with the Administration ; but in the conduct of the Ministers with respect to Naples—in their thus abandoning the declarations which had been made to our old ally, when with him alone we had stemmed the torrent of French power, there was a sufficient g round for censure, and he would willingly concur in a vote of disapprobation on their conduct. Mr. HORNER said, there was a great deal of truth in the observations which had been made by the Hon. Gentleman who had preceded him—that we had a right, even now, to expect some explanations ; nor would any one who had attended to the, proceed ings of similar Congresses say, that if they were not finally settled within such a period, all explanation of the state of our foreign ccieticons should be till then deferred; and if the, Resets Congress was to last as long as those which bad bleu held at Munster and ehewherep and we were 19 giTe in the mean time large sums to foreign powers—a half million to this power for a fleet, and so much to another as a sub sidy.-.-it would be convenient to the foreign powers to receive these sums, and to the Ministers to get them voted without any statement. As to the pre tence which had b.en made for giving no answers as to Poland and Saxony, it did not at all apply to the Treaty with King Joachim. That was past—the question was not whether such a thing was to take place, but aye or no, whether it had already hap pened ?—Aye or no, whether we were not acting contrary to it ? This was a subject, therefore, on which the House had a right to demand information, not only as it regarded the subsidy, but the honour and faith of the Crown in its foreign relations, which would ever be dear to the House. In the present evening the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated, that he did neither admit nor deny the existence of our engagements with King Joachim.— A singular variation from his declaration of a former evening, when he had said that he was a stranger to it. An expression equivalent to a denial, when pro ceeding from a responsible Minister of the Crown in the House of Commons—for it could not be supposed that that Minister would be ignorant of such engage ments six or seven months after the time when din' were said to have been concluded. The House, he hoped, would bear in mind the conduct of the Mi nister of the Crown with respect to these engage ments—that he had first denied their existence, and that his second statement was, that he neither ad mitted nor denied them. It was too late at present to bring forward such an evasion, they had already voted the subsidy. It was said that we.had engaged to pay a subsidy to Sicily while she continued at war. Now, to put an extravagant supposition, but which the reasoning of the Gentlemen opposite seemed to justify, it Sicily were to make war upon ourselves, were we to continue the subsidy to her? A treaty of Subsidy, like any other engagement, was to be construed according to its spirit and meaning, taking into account the circumstances of the case, and the situation of the country. But two cases had been [nought forward as parallel, the conduct of this country towards Spain atter the breaking out of the late war with France, and the situation of Aus tria towards Russia in 181'2. In both these cases, which were most properly lumped together, the ques tion was, whether one power had given another a sufficient ground of war by a pecuniary aid to its adversary in one case, and of a contingent in ano ther. It was absurd to compare those cases with our present engagements towards Naples and Sicily. In both those cases the question was one of expe diency nierely—( Hear, hear.) In the one whether we should etigage Spain in a contest out of which it was our interest to keep her as long as possible, al though we perceived that the government of the Prince of the Peace was merely a Lieutenancy under Bunapatte ; and in the other Russia was most anxious to keep Austria neutral at any price, looking forward to their accession of her power, which ultimately rook place. In neither of these cases was any engagement of 'moor in question—expediency was the only point to be cunsideted. In the present instance we had' guaranteed to the King of Naples the territory of Na. 1 ples, with an addition even of territory, which would explain his present movements on the shores of the Adriatic—in the March of Ancona and the Duchy of Romagna. We had not pledged our honour to him on this subject gratuitously, but we had value re. ceived for our stipulation. We had not rushed into the arms of Joachim Napoleon, from any wish to se cure those persons who had been raised on the ruins of the ancient dynasties, but because he had assisted us to overthrow the power which had raised him. We had received his co-operation in Italy, without which the movements of the allies as well on the Rhine as in Italy, would have been embarrassed. Even at the time when Lord Castlereagh gave instructions to Lord W. Bentinck to conclude the engagement with Joachim, the co-operation of that Monarch was, he understood, necessary to render the position of Count Bellegat de, on the Mincio, secure. The state of our engagements with Joachim was this r—ln April last a Treaty was concluded between Austria, which was presented to Lord Castlereagh for his concurrence. That Noble Lord returned that Treaty with altera tions in his own hand writing, which secured an in demnity to the King of Sicily for Naples, which ter ritory was left to King Joachim, provided that King Joachim should withdraw his claims upon Sicily.— Ile Treaty thus altered was agreed to by Naples-- and Lord Castlereagh, at Dijon or Chatillon, signified his concurrence in it ; and stated, that the only rea son why he did not formally accede, arose from mo tives of delicacy to the King of Sicily ; but that on his faith and that of England, he pledged himself that that Treaty should be acceded to ; and a peace, if possible, negotiated, purl liassu, between the King of Sicily and Murat. The Noble Lord did not rest there, but instructed Lotd W. Bentinck to give the same assurance in writing, which he had given ver bally ; and in consequence of the strange proclama tion at Leghorn, he wrote a dispatch to remove the possibility of doubt—to instruct Lord W. Bentinck to disavow that Proclamation to the Neapolitan Mi nister—to assure him again that Great Britain would accede to the Treaty with Austria, and that - it Ferdi nand would not accept the indemity for Naples, Great Britain would not only desert him, but would support Naples against him. And to strong was the feeling in Italy on this subject, th a t t h e Queen of Naples,. the sister of Bonaparte, made a declaration (which as coming from her was rather curious) that she would rather confide in a declaration of a British General than a treaty signed and sealed with any other power. Such was the statement, which had neither been ad mitted nor denied. If it were true he would put it to the House, whether it was not a violation of ho nour and good faith to send money to Sicily, to re cover that territory which we had guaranteed to ano ther power ? Mr. WELLESLEY POLE felt assured that the Minister of England will be found to have advocated the cause of truth and justice. He thought his Noble Friend had been treated rather harshly by the Hon. Gentleman, who, after having admitted, in unquali fied terms, the propriety of the Noble Lord's ap pointment, had animadverted very unjustifiably upon the Noble Lord for his conduct towards Poland, a subject upon which the Honourable Gentleman could not be well informed. If. the Honourable Gentleman i waisted an answer to this question, he would say, that Gentlemen on the other side of the House furnished a sufficient answer for themselves, ivy the fact that they originated questions for the mkt' bf making comments to inflasue_and mislead the pulkeini n d, Whether there was or was not an agent from Murat in town, the Honourable Gentleman himself could perhaps best tell. The time would eeiviloikila. nation, and Ministers would not shrink from the re. sponsibility that belonged to them. In the contest between Naples and Sicily, it might just as weli.be said that the King of Naples was at war to &throne the King of Sicily as that the King of Sicily was at war to dethrone the King of Naples. Mr. WHITBREAD, in explanation, positively' de. nied that he knew of any Ambassador from Murat being in London. Sir NEWPORT, in a vein of irony, answered the Right Hon. Gentleman, who he described as having run the round of office, from the Secretaryship of Ireland, where he was Ego et Rex Rem (or, in other words, I. I am the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,") until he became the Director of the Cabinet; and in that situation he was exercising that exaggerated controul which in Ireland he formerly exercised.• The House then went into a Committee ; when it was moved that 5e15,000 be granted towards tbelnp.. 'port of the suffering Laity and Clergy of France, and -; Dutch Naval Officers, &e. Mr. WHITBREAD wished toltaiiVihe P-pajw who were to partake of this Vot e ? Mr. PONSONBY thought it extraordinary-4kt, after the French King had been restored to throne, that House should be called upon to pay any sums of money for the support of his subjects. Re observed, indeed, towards the dose of the resohni6D„ mention was made of claims upon the justice and liberality of the country. Any claims upon its jus tice ought to be attended to, but why it should be li beral he was at a loss to conceive. The country had already been liberal enough, and the House, there fore, had a right to call for explanation' before'it should pass such a vote. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER admitted that the French Emigrants had mrt with the greatest liberality in this country, which did hc nour to the nation. They are now morning to their native country. A part of the sum asked was a com pensation for claims, for some who had served in our army, and for those who have not had an opportunity to ay.til themselves of the opening to return home. The vote would not occur again. Mr. PONSON BY observed, that a vote had passed the French Legislature, for paying all sums of money lent the King of France. Many of the Emigrants had been restored to their estates, and therefore the proper fund might be made for re-paying these advances. Mr. C. GRANT said, that many of these Beni. grants were old, and had no property to return to in France ; consequently the beneficence of England was well applied. Mr. WHITBREAD professed himself satisfied with the explanation of the Right Hor. Gentleman. He was not so indelicitte as to require a disclosure of th • names of those emigrants who had been relieved by votes of this nature ; but he thought that a list of these names should be kept by Government, in case it should ever be wanted. With regard to the ques tion of his Right Hon. Friend, respecting the repay ment of this country by the Royal Family- of France s it appeared that Ministers wete unable to make asy answer. _ Mr. WELLESLEY POLE obierelkdtat what. ever might be the information of his Majesty's Minis ters, it did not follow that they should answer gut*, tions likely to interfere with the public interest. Mr. WHITBREAD remarked, that Minim:salad lately received not only an accession of vivacity, but of prudence also, and it appeared that in futureit-wat proposed to pnt their ignorance under the shelter of discretion. It was clear, in the present case, that Ministers were without information. Mr. WELLESLEY POLE said, that In some cases, at least, it was justifiable not to answer ques tions. 86 We will not," added the Right Hon. Gen tleman, 46 answer questions where we cannot." Mr. WHITBREAD.—" Then I shall in future take the Right Hon. Gentleman's will for ext."— The motion was agreed to. The following sums were then moved : To make good a Sum voted by Parliament, £11,900 9s. 21 For the Civil List Expenditure, not made good by Parliament, £68,357 71. Od. Ditto Charges, £4,544 14s. fd. Parliamentary Services, £6,681 181. 6d. American Comm 'Wooers, for Compensation Claims,se33,ooo. These sums were severally agreed to, and the Re. port ordered to be received on Monday. On bringing up the Report of the Supply of Thurs day, respecting the grant of 01,000 to Lord Wal singham, as an Annuity for his services as Chairman of the Committees of the House of Lords, Mr. WHITBREAD took occasion to ask when the Right Hon. Gentleman would be prepared to lay on the table the Papers respecting the Spanish sub jects given up by General Smith ; and whether he had made any inquiries into the conduct of Sir James Duff in the business. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not ready with the Papers ; but the next time they met he hoped he should be able to produce them. Mr. TIERNEY asked whether a sum of money given to the King of France to carry him to Paris, was taken out of the Droirs of Admiralty. If not, from what fund was it taken ?—that sum he understood was to be repaid. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that it was not taken out of the Drous of Admiralty, but from the Vote of Credit. The Le gislature of France had passed a decree, in which tl:ey charged the nation with the repayment of all Ow King's debts, and consequently this sum most pre. bably would form an item. MISCELLANEOUS. A Bill was then ordered, pursuant to the R •solu tion of the Committee, for granting an Annuity to Lord Walsingham. The Hackney Coach Amendment Act was r. sd a second time, and committed for to-morrow. A Petition was presented by Mr. P. Wiper, Pay ing for leave to bring in a Bill for making A to be called the Royal Clarence Canal, from Ei kb to Gravesend.—The Petition was laid on the Tali,. ' Sir JOHN NEWPORT gave notice, tint lie should on Tuesday next move for copies of Adi oh" from persons forming the Orange Societies la Ire laud..—Adjourned.