Star. — London, England, 1822-02-23 00:00:00

. . Right Hen. Gentlemao untgcessary ?—(Hear, hear.) In illstice r,, the . t!tuntry this‘tatement should have bee mad.- Iseftwe,'and we/nat .- he seen that the pub lic credit slid Got •degend upon that Sinking Fund which was lauded , o rnsich 'Joon all hands, hut upon the coritinglency of whether the Bank would make the advances or not-IYear , hear). He (Mr. Tier ney) did not blame the Chancellor of the Exchequer for this state ,if things, but he quarrelled with him for ho ding ont to the country that it was to the ex istence of a Sinking Fund that we owed our credit, whilst it was, in fact, upon the Bank that we de . pended--( Hear, hear). 'Mr. BRIGHT, alluding to what had fallen from the Hon. Me Lber for Cumberland (Mr. Curwen), as to the imposition of atax upon imported tallow, said he should protest against the tajcink off a tax from one article and placing it upon another, with a . view of giving relief to any one branch of the public in dustry. This change' was proposed with a view of taking off a burden from the grower, but it would fall upon the manufacturer. Imposing a tax upon imported tallow; would have the effect of raising the price of the commodity. He (Mr. B.) was an adeo cate'for a reduction of taxation as far as it could be car, led, but he protested against shifting the burthen from one pair of shouldet sto another. The distress was not confined to one class, but all were equally entitled to relief. It was but too common with Gen tlemen in this House to be assuming a monopoly of distress for certain classes which they had no right to do. He would therefore recommend, if they did oot take off all the burdens, at least not to be so un just as to relieve one class at the expense of another. Mr. CURWEN complained that the Hon. Member had mistaken the tenour of the observations which he had made. He deprecated the idea of transferring a tax from any one class to another. His object would be to increase the duty on Russian tallow to £3 3s. 4d. per cwt. so as to raise the price, and this increase would allow of a reduction in the articles cf soap and candles. At present this commodity, which was sold for three-pence halfpenny per pound in Russia, was sold in England for four-pence (Hear). He wisheJ again to say, that he had no in tentio of shifting this tax from one class to another. Mr. N. CALVERT and Colonel Woos spoke in fa vour of the duty. C9LON EL BROICN. Mr. COKE, seeing the Noble Marquis in his place, thought this a fit opportunity for putting a question to him respecting the dismissal of an Officer from the service, which took place some years ago. The indi vidual to whom he alluded was Colonel Brown, and he had 1“ petition in hi• hand, which stated teat the petitioner had been for some time British Vice-Consul at one of the foreign port.. but that, agreeably to a circuar from the Foreign Office, dated the 29th May, 1817, he was dismissed, as be alleged, without suffi cient cause. He wished to know from the Noble Marquis whether there was any objection on the part of Government to pera,it an inquiry into the causes f. - a - which this Gentleman was dismissed? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that the nomination of Consuls wa, a prerogative so unquali fiedly ve,led in the Croan, that this liou,e had not hither to inquired into the rummer in which it was exercise!. In this me, it appeared that Colonel Blown had bean dismissed; but it was enough to say, that the . Secretary for the Colonial Department thought proper to bestow his confidence upon ano ther person whom he thought mote worthy of it. In addition to this, he coul:l state that Colonel Brown brought his own dismissal upon himself, and that it was a measure agreed in ley all the Masters of British vessels at the port where he re..ided. AC,TI:IIN LOAN. Mr. 11. SMITH wished to know from the Noble Marquis whether any steps had been taken to obtain f:om Austria the repayment of the debt of twenty o:,e millions which she owed to this country, or whe ther it was the intention of Government to take any steps upon that subject? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said !. e had for merly given assurances to the House that the repay ment of this debt would not be overlooked by Minis ters. No decisive steps had been taken since the matter was last under the consideration of Parlia ment, but negotiations respecting it were now pend ing. Until these negotiations were brought to an issue, he could not say what would be the result of the steps taken hitherto, or what steps Government might deem it advisable in future to adopt. Mr. SMITH then said, that, considering the relief I which this loan would give in the present state of dis tress, he should feel it his duty on an early day to sub mit to Parliament two Resolutions upon this subject. WINDOW TAX IN IRELAND. Mr. S. RICE wished to ask the Welt Hon. Gen tleman (the Chancell.-r of the Exchequer), whether it was the intention of Government to concede a repeal of, or any modification in that oppressive impost, the Windo.. Tax in Leland? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in reply, said, that after his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Londonderry) had stated distinctly the other night the extent to which Government were able to carry a reduction of taxation, this question of the Honour able Member seemed unnecessary. He would now state, that it was not the intention of Ministers to re , peal the Tax alluded to in Ireland; but he himself would bring in a ILL for extending to that part of the United Kingdom the repeal of the additional duty nn Malt—(Hear, hear).—Being upon his legs, the Right Hon. Gentleman said he would take this op portunity of replying to the interrogatory of the ,Ho nourable Member for Cumberland (Mr. Curwen), re-1 specting the imposition of a duty upon Russian tal low. At present he could not say whether Govern ment would adopt the Hon. Member's suggestion ; and, indeed, until the Agricultural Committee had made its report, and a mole extended view of public measures was taken, Ministers could not pledge them selves further as to future steps. Sir ISAAC COFFIN, before the House went into, a Committee of Ways and Means, wished to'say that he was ashamed and afraid to make an attack upon an Hon. Member opposite. Ashamed, because his (Sir Isaac's) ground was so safe; and 'afraid, because he knew that if he did so, he should be visited with a reprimand from the Chair: but even with this tenor before his eyes, he could not help telling that Hon. Member that lie was not the Oracle of Delphos, and that his.. calculations with regard to naval affairs were entirely . fallacious. Ile bad heard OW tioa. Member speak there upon night, all of which w ere r Mle SPEAli l isaid fere. The lion. en3lia: cilert4tot to Tee eau Used, atod.tkot hTs timed. The Hon. Mewl the_ proceediar of the now for going into a Committee of Supply, but into a Committee of Ways and Means. WAYS AND MEANS. The House then resolved kalif into a Committei of Ways and Means. The CH ANC ELLOR ofthe EXCHEQUER moved a Resolution, that for making good the supply granted to his *jest!, the Excise duty of one.shilling• in the pound upon Tobacco and Snuff, which was granted last Session, to the sth of July, be further continued for one year.--Agreed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then moved, that, for snaking good the supply, the tax of four shillings in the pound upon all pensions be fur-, ther continued for one year. The question having been put, Mr. HUME moved, as an Amenclinent, that the said Tax be raised to ten shillings in the pound upon all pensions and allowances over £2OO a-year. Mr. TIERNEY said he hoped his Hon. Friend, the Member for Aberdeen, would not press his Amend ment upon the House. It embraced a qunstion of considerable importande, and he suggested that it was taking the House by surprise to bring such a proposition on, without due notice—(Hear, hear). — A little delay would not prejudice his proposition, and he therefore put it to the Hon. Member's 'own feelings, whether, respecting a question of this im portance, he ought not to give the House some time to deliberate upon his proposition ?—Wear, hear). . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was convinced that it was only from an ignorance of the exact condition of the Pension List, that the lion. Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume) brought forward at this time the proposition which he had just made. If the House went with him now, they would be doing . a great injustice to a large class of persons, and giving undue advantages to others. To explain himself he would call the attention of the House to. the real state of the Pension List. It was, doubtless, thought by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, that an in crease of the duty upon Pensions would affect all Pensioners; but this was not the case, for :here we: e many Pensioners who, by particular Acts of Polia , meta, were exempt from paying all duties and taxes, and as this class comprehended the greater number on the list, an addition to the duty would only in crease the burdens upon the smaller number who were exposed, to the duties—(Hear).—lt was only ancient grants which were subject to duties; but all modern Pensions were exempt from them.. Ile per fectly agreed with the Right Hon. G...:ntlenvin oppo site (Mr. Tierney), that the House had been taken by surprise by this Amendment of the lion. Mernter for Aberdeen—(Hear). Mr. CREEVEY said, that no one had a greater respect for the suggestions and (pinions of a Right lion. Gentleman on the first bench (Mr. Tiern-v), upon all occasions,' than he ha.l. That Hon. Gentle man had, however, advanced doctrine; th . :: night, which he (Mr. Crcevey) could not suffer to be ad vanced in that House without entering his protest against them—( Hear).—lt was to hiai totally unin telligible why, when this House was called upon to vote a sum of money from a particular branch of the public resources, it had not the power of saying that that sum should not be more or less than the amount called for. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer asked for a tax of four shillings in the pound, there was no reason why his Hun. Friend could not say that this tax should be ten instead of four, with out being obliged to give notice—(Hear).—lf, how ever, the discussion of the question was inconvenient at that moment, he would advise his Hon. Friend to withdraw his amendment ; but he would never con- sent to the doctrines laid down by the Right lion. Gentleman with regard to the power of that I louse at any time, and under any circumstances, to modify its grant—(Hear).—lf it should appear to his lion. Friend that his proposition was inconvenient at ilia: tide, he would advise him to withdraw it on that ground alone; but if he did not think it was so, then he should press his motion, and it should have his (Mr. Creevey's) support. Mr. TIERNEY was sorry that any observations of his should have provoked the anger of the Hon. Member. It might be that the suggestions which he made did not meet the approbation of the Hon. Mem ber ; but, notwithstanding, he (Mr. Tierney) was not disposed to yield to liim in a knowledge of the forms of that House—(Hear).—The only objection which he made to the amendment was with regard to form, and he still contended that a proposition of that nature should not be brought forward without due notice. He asked what would be the feelings of the House, if the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, with out notice, proposed to reduce this tax to three shil lings?—(Near, hear).—He appealed to the justice and candour of the Hon. Member himself against pressing the motion. He was sure that, since the ex planation given by the Right Hon. Gentleman op posite, the question appeared in a' different light to him, as, perhaps, he.*as not before awake that all the pensions on he list were not alike. Under melt circumstances the lion. Member would see the injus tice of adding burdens to a few, as the greater part were exempt from duty. He wished once more to say that he was sorry for having offended the lion. Meniber for Appleby, and to state that his objection to the Amendment arose from a wish that the House should not be taken by surprise—(Hear). Mr. HUME denied that he had ever, upon any occasion, shewn a disposition to take the House or any Member by surprise. He therefore would with draw his amendment for the present ; but be trusted the Right Hon. Gentleman would lay before the House a return, containing a list of the pensions no minally affected by the vote, and stating what were and what were not exempted, and the grounds of exemption. To enable the Right Hon. Gentleman to produce such a return, he begged to withdraw his amendment, and to substitute another, proposing the postponement of the vote. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he had not the least objection to meet the amendment upon principle; but the present was a moticm which had bon always agreed to since the reign of. King eight Ad in tr., 'arm. !demi, 'lee -did not see how the House could pass this vote now, with a reservation of revising it baser. The words in the Resolution, #4 that four , .and.lkmore," would preclude the House from increasing chit tax in future—Wear, hear).—Should the House now pass the vote, it Would afterwards be urged as a reason for not disturbing it. Therefore, until the Chancellor of the Exchequer shewed that and . parti cular inconvenience-would result from the delay, he, saw no reason why he should ant *agree to the otruss of his Hon. Friend. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob served, that he had been misunderstood. All he meant to say was, that great injustice would be done by increasing the duties of pensions in this stage, be cause only a portion of those on the List would be affected by it. Thus, whilst one part of the pensions would be taxed fifty per cent. the other part would' be free from taxation altogether. He did not object to increasing the tax upon pensions, but he was anxious that it should be equally and justly laid upon all.— The Hon. Gentleman again adverted to the inconve nience of. not granting this vote in the first instance. Sir J. NEWPORT denied that any injury could result from a short delay ; and he contended that the argumentavas only used as a pretext for opposing the increase of this tax. Mr. HUME said, that he held a paper in his hand which would spew the necessity there was-of in quiring into the Pension List,. and making some re form in it. It was the only Paper he had obtained of all those he had moved for last Session, and it was a Return of pluralities of Pensions enjoyed by persons on the Pension List. This document was returned fiorn the Admiralty, and was signed " James Dyer, Chief Clerk." He would read the case of one Gen tleman, which was a little curious. This person. in 18Q9, being returned unfit for service. obtained a pension of £292. 10s. The year after, he was made a Commissioner of Stamps; and the year after, being unfit fur. service, he obtained a pension of 1:600. But the next year again, he was made Paymaster of Sea-. mens Widows' Pensions ; and he had now a pension' for that of another £6oo—( Hear, hear).—So that the whole of this Gentleman's income, from these seve r ral pensions, was altogether no less than El 4.92 (Laud eheersfrom the Opposition—cries of " Namer from the Ministerial Beaches). Sir J. OSBORNE —" I can state, from my own knowledge, that this statement is quite incorrect." Mr. HUME said, the only ans , ,er he would make to the observation of the lion. Member, was to sub mit his document to be read by the Clerk—(Cheers). The Clerk then proceeded to read—" Edward Finch Hatton, Inspector of Tea and Coffee, 292/.los. (Tumultuous cheering).—" Commissioner of Stamps, 600/."—( Hear). Mr. BROGDEN (Chairman of the Committee) here observed, that these sums made only 8921. in stead of 1499./. Mr. HUME.—" I can account for that: bete are 292/. as Inspector of Tea and Coffee, 6001. as Com missioner of Stamps, and in a few days you will be called upon to vote 6001. more to this Gentleman, as Paymaster of Widows Pensions; do not 2921. and Gout. and (3001. make .14921. ?"—(Lpud cheers.) Sir JOHN OSBORNE observed, that Mr. Hatton Earl been Under Secretary of State. Mr. HUME said, he knew nothing of that—here was a Return from the Admiralty—(llear)—and here also was a sample of correctness in a Lord of the Admiralty. The House ought to congratulate itself that it had tow a Lori of the Admiralty who would state matters correctly !—(Cheer).—He (Mr. Hume) had, however, to claim the protection of the House against a repetition cf the interruption which be had received from that Hon. Lord, who, with out any authority, undertook to contradict him flatly (Hear, hear).—Here was a Return ; and he now asked, was he to be put down by a bare assertion ? He had mentioned only this little fact, but the Paper contained many other cases; and he could lay his finger upon many Members of this House as very simi lar ly circumstanced. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the document was returned from the Admiralty, because Mr. Hatton was Paymaster of Widows' Pen sions. His pensions, however, were a reward for his general services —(A laugh).—The place which he formerly filled was one of great trust—(Laughtcr)— and he retired from the office of Under Secretary of State without any provision being made for birth It was to reward him, that he obtained the situation of Paymaster, to which he also joined that of Corn missioner of Stamps. He was now retired from this latter situation upon a pension. The Right lion. Gentleman then went on to repeat, that the delay of this vote would cause great inconvenience, as it would affect the advances made by the Bank, which were made upon the security of the first vote. If the House thought fit to impose a tax upon pensions, it would be better done at another time. Mr. TIERNEY said, that after the handsome man ner in which the lion. Member consented to with draw his motion, be (Mr. Tierney) was obliged to say that he saw no reason why the Chancellor of the Ex chequer should not comply with his terms, and he was still at a loss to see the inconvenience which would result from postponing this vote—(Heur).-- It was not true that the delay of-this vote could of-- ' feet advances made by the Bank, for they had still the Malt and Land Tax as a security, and the case in that respect would be the same whether this vote was passed or not. He would be sorry that any in convenience should arise from delay, but if the Hon. Member persisted in pressing his amendment to a di vision, he (Mr. T.) would give it his support (Hear). The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that if the question was - to be discussed as to the propriety of imposing a tax.upon Pensions, this was not . the most proper, time for going into that discussion. - As. Ministers were not disposed to diminish the tax, the , House might trust to them , end it should. be 'recnl lected, that passing this vote .now did not compro mise any future enlargement:} of the tax which mighi • be deemed advisable. ._ IIr.TILIINEY said, nothing which the Noble Blar. had induced him to change VA the propriety of insisting on this he hadn't:thy objeetitms to make al tat upon all p ens i on . general 50 r pet cent. and others l e He thought the vote oug h t to should therefore move, as ao _ Chairman de mart reeves % and obtain leave to sit again. Mr. BROGDEN asked whether the Hen. Member for Abet deen intended to withdraw his Amendment? Mr. HUME answered in the affirmative. ' Mr. BROGDEN then put the question that the Aattendment be now withdrawn. Mr. CROKER rose to contradict the statement of the Hon. Member, that Mr. Hutton had ladtm ge d to the Admiraity and retired from It. Mr. HUM E —g , I said he was returned from it.' Mr. CROKER—He never belonged to the Admi ralty Office, and therefore his Hon. Friend ( si r j„i n, Osborne) was correct in interrupting the Hon. Mem-- ber when he was stating that which was n u t true (Hear, krar).—The reason why Mr. Hatton WAS re. turned from the Admiralty was this—that in 1811 an Act passed, by which all pensions to persons clmtred upon old stores were transfgrred to tl.e Navy mates, and it was ia that way, and not oche; wire, that-Mr. Hatton became connected with the ralty department—(Heart. Mr. BROUGHAM said that lie had one obsvrap don to make— Mr. I3IIOGDEN—" Order ! Order! I must tlte:s. mist the Honourable Member, there is a motion It. fore the Committee." _ . Mr. BROUGHAM- 4, With great submission to you, Sir, I have as much right to speak upon thz: question as any other Member of the Committee. was about to reply to an observation of an 1 - I.:r. Member who spoke last." Mr. BROGDEN—" But the question before the Committee is upon withdrawing a motion; and I die. expect, when that Hon. Member stood up, that he had something to offer upon it"— (Hear, hear). The question was then put upon withdrawing t'..e motion, and carried. Mr. BROUGHAM then said, being now permit ted to speak, he would begin with an apology for the time which the discussion in which he sr as con cerned took up. Had he not been interrupted in first instance, he would not have wasted hail •o mud: time in the observations which he was gring to nar!.-. He was a little surprised that an lion. Member (Mr. Croker) should state that another Lion. Member (Sir J. Osborne) was correct in interrupting the lion. Member for - Alseideen (Mi. Humes, and setting him right, though such an attempt at setting light was never seen before; whilst it was as dear as day that the Hon. Member for Aberdeen was substantially cor rect, and that the Hon. Member who interrupted him was as substantially wrong—(Hear!)—lle had said his Hon. Friend was substantially correct, fur when his calculations were borne out, it mattered little whether he was correct in saying that this person Le longed to the Admiralty or not. But even in that particular he was right, for he not only Went upon the authority of a paper sigaed " Jame- Der, Clerk," and to she , ' that it came from the Admiralty Office, but the eery ch.cornstar.ce of Mr. Hatton's being Paymaster of Widows' 1 1 r.- ,sions, proved that he was tonnectedwith that pub:i: department—(Hear, hear). Mr. CROKER said, tire Hen. and Learned Gentle man was not quite correct in assunritsg that the -ma , nagement of the Widows' PeliSicins was in the Ad miralty Office. The fact was not so. These funds . were managed by a particular body, called the Court 'of Assistance of the Widows' Charities, and with these the Admiralty had no concern whatever, Mr. HUMS. -- But I will spew that this fund is subject to the Admiralty ; for in the Navy Estimates I find an item of £105.000 for the funds of the cha rity of Seamen's Widows, and further, this is seventy thousand pounds more than was charged before." Sir M. W. RIDLEY observe!, that the Court of Assistance met at the Admiralty Office—(Hear). — The salary of the Paymaster of this charity, five years ago, was raised from £2QO to £6OO. Mr. ELLICE said, that it Would be more exped:ert at once to reduce these pensions, consistent with the present state of the country, than to impose a tax of 4s. in the pound upon them. He recommended a ge neral revision of the Pension List. Mr. HUME said, that in 1806 the salary of Mr. Hatton, as Paymaster of the Widows' Pensions, was but £2OO a year ; but that in 1813, when we were full of cash, it was raised to £6OO a year. The same advances might have taken place in other pensions, and this was an additional reason why the Haute should revise it. Mr. SCARLETT asked, if the words, " four and no more," had any meaning, how the House could hereafter increase the four shillings to ten ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re peated, that he had no objection to lay a tax npca pensions, if the subject was brought on at a proper time. He would not hesitate to postpone this vote, ;1 he saw any good could be gained by delay ; but on the other hand, he fiaresav; a positive it convenience in postponing it, he should call upon the Committee to agree with him, that it ought now to be passed. The Committee then divided, when the numbers appeared to be—For the Amendment, 66—Against it, 113—Majority against the Amendment, 47.—The original naotioa being then put from the Chair, Mr. CALCRAFT hoped the House would net come to a hasty decision on the question. He t:•lt that it would be better to leave out the words no more," as no alteration could take pla:e in that Bill. A new Bill might, indeed, be brought in to save trouble, and •he would propose that the words no more" be left out. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he had no objection to leave out the words. Mr.ELLICE wished to know what was the expense of collecting that tax ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that it.wai the same as that of collecting other parts of the band Tax.- . Mr. ELLICE said, his intention in putting the quebtion was with a view to shew, that if the pensions were reduced iii the same proportion, then the expense of collecting- could be saved entirely-..(Near, hear). The . CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUE R said, it was intended to make some alteration in the mode of collecting the Revenue. • on rudientr. from night to ' ' - .and he therefore trusted the Hon. Member '• quis had advanced ha -• • .4:( en#l4ll7 ions . ', .. •! de the course of tie Wft. , mind with regard to di lho felljtanessary tainted.. 21 ..- ' ' : 4-4. Int ; L thogght the prainsition lion: lose being posttened• regi : t 'oils which he cOnsidetinions of a trifling itesonvessienceshosUpre• to O. imposition of a Ir "' ld If feel that he Naltiliet'Verf reaseetWes 'end ittilw no reason why Mr. RENNET saidh t in the obit were quite ill- vent the . House from entertaining it. A deity tlpon some he would would not tat at all. iber menSed to have mistaken eight days could not produce math incoevatde louse. .Thequestion was not ,and in time the official Returns alluded to by the be postponed; and he )mmittee of Surmlr. but into Hon. Member for Aberdeen might be made out ; but Amendment, that the .....- and obtain leave to sit 1