Star. — London, England, 1814-06-15 00:00:00

that were a scandal to human nature. It was high time that such horrible proceedings should be looked into ; and he hoped that no place, not even 4 Royal establishment, would be exempted.—(Loud crier of hear, hear.) —He meant Bedlam ; and he would say, that he believed the greatest cruelties were practised there. Mr. BENNETT said he had been entirely misun derstood. So far from wishing to throw out impedi ments against the Bill, there was nobody more fa vourable to its general principle : he oaly wished it to be more maturely considered. Mr. WHITBREAD, from having been a mem ber of the Committee, could assure the House, that the highest praise was due to the Right Hon. Gen tleman (Mr. Rose) for his indefatigable attention to make the Bill perfect ; yet it was not now in that si tuation in which it ought to be passed. It was cer tain that great abuses had been practised ; but, by the sweeping condemnation of the Bill, it might be sup posed that there was no place for the reception of lu natics in which they would be treated with humanity. He had himself visited a number ,of these places; and as Gentlemen had menticned Bedlam, he was afraid lest it might be supposed that an excellent establish ment, of which he was a Governor, deserved a simi lar censure. He alluded to St. Luke's, than which it was impossible for any place to be better conducted. The Governors were ready to prove to any visitant, that there was nothing to be found fault with. As to the Bill, if it could not be made perfect this Ses sion, it would operate, and had already operated, as a means of correction. Mr. SHAW LEFEV RE was of a similar opinion. The knowledge of these proceedings through the country would have the good effect of making people upon the alert. Mr. W. SMITH bore testimony to the general good treatment of the persons in St. Luke's ; where, although there was nothing that could be termed an abuse, there was much that might be improved. He thought the principal defect in that establishment was the want of a sufficient classification of the ob. jects it contained. Respecting Bedlam, he could not say se much ; and he considered the Petition pre sented from that place, to exempt it from visitation, to be, in the mildest terms, a most injudicious mea sure indeed. In Bedlam, he was sorry to say that he bad been an eye-witness to one or two instances of the greatest abuse and mismanagement. These, perhaps, arose from the people there going on in the same routine, and thinking that what was right last year must be right this. One case had excited the great est horror.—(Hear,hear.)—lf the House called upon him he would describe it. There does exist in Bed lam the case of a man who had twice attempted the life of his keepers ; but the House would think that stn person, even a raging madman, who had attempt ed this or any thing else, ought to be so treated.— Nothing could warrant the keeping of a man chained to his bed for upwards of 13 years. He had seen him last week, and found him capable of answering almost any question that was put to him, in a man ner perfectly reasonable. He could tell how long he bad been confined in this situation, as well as the cause. of it. When told that he might be at liberty, if he could answer for his future conduct, be said, he could not always answer for himself ; but he asked if this were a reason why lie should be always kept in the inanner he was then seen in ? In short (said Mr. Smith) his situation was enough to shock any human being whose senses were not binnud by simi lar scenes. He was most anxious to press on the House the consideration, whether any hospital, in which such scenes were witnessed, ought to petition for exemption from visitation ? Alderman C. SMITH said a few words in favour of the general regulations of Bedlam, as being abso lutely necessary. Mr. W. SMITH, in reply, would ask if any man ought to be confined to his bed, with a ring round his neck, with his hands handcuffed, and irons round both his legs ? SirW. CURTIS thought there was no doubt that sufficieat reasons could be given by the Physicians for this extreme severity. Bur, as a Governor, he would inquire into the circumstances ere the subject should come again before the House. He would ask, however, whether it would be beneficial, if these visitations should be decreed, that a strange medical man, accompanied by a Magistrate, should go and counteract the operations of the Physicians of the establishment, by setting loose a man who might do the greatest mischief ? Mr. HOLME SUMNER - said, he went to Bed. lam, and in one of the cells observed the rod on which the chain of Norris (the person in question) moved, which confined him in a sort of iron frame. —He told the man to take off kis blankets, that he might see the frame that environed his body. He did so ; and he (Mr. Sumner) found the case exactly as it had been described by the Hon. Gentleman. — This unhappy person made the observation, that in August next lie should have been confined fourteen .years! since his visit, he had received a letter from a Gentleman, assuring him that it had produced an amelioration of the case ; and that all the irons had been knocked from the man, except that round the neck.. He thought no advising Physician ought to be consulted on a case of this kind, which spoke plainly for itself. The Honourable Gentleman con cluded with saying, that it was impossible for any person to examine the two establishments of Bedlam and St. Luke's without being struck with the deci sive superiority of the latter. 'There were also.many other houses of the kind which he had visited in his tour, and found the people in them treated with the greatest kindness. ' The Report was then ordered for farther conside ration on Monday: , . TREATY Olt PEACE. Lord CASTLEREAGH made some observations expressive of his with to, postpone the consideration of the Treaty for a sew days. lie should propose that the discussion should come on as early as pos sible • but he was bare the House would agree with bins In he. necessity of having - a full attendance, which could notise expected in the present week. Mr. WHITBREAD - would submit to the Noble Lord, whether it would not be preferable to postpone 111 qt4stions of itn'portatiie'till after the honours had been! paid•to the'Ailled Sovereigns, which it did not appear would be till afteli next Week In a few days till the bicnibori wriuhl•be aviay at Portsmouth, and after tha't, (What with a dinner being fixed for one day, a slipper for the next, and so forth,) it st as not f likely that Members would soon come do w n with an appetite for debating. He therefore hoped that the Noble Lord would postpone the discussion beyond the time at which he seemed now inclined to press t. As he was now up, he would ask the Noble Lord, whether it was his intention to produce a certain in strument, to which this country appeared to be a party—he meant the Treaty entered into by the Al lied Powers with the Emperor Napoleon ? If not, he (Mr. Whitbread) should think it necessary to sub mit a motion for an Address—not with a view to provoke any discussion, but front a mere sense of duty. Lord CASTLEREAGH answered, that he bad no wish to press forward the discussion; but he thought that Monday se'nnight would answer the views of the Members in general. Respecting the particular Treaty about which the Hon. Gentleman enquired, he should have no objection to produce as much of it as voe had any concern in. The Treaty was not a Treaty of ours. Mr. WHITBREAD said, as it would be difficult to shape a motion on the subject, he•hoped the Noble Lord would give as many documents as possible. A Me,sage from the Lords announced that thtir Lordships had agreed to the Corn Exportation Bill, without any amendment. STATE OF THE CITY PRISONS. Mr. HOLFORD, on rising to make the Motion of which he had given notice, respecting the Prisons of the Metropolis, said, although it had been con tended that there was no necessity for this measure, on account of the building of new and enlarged places of confinement ; yet there were many causes of complaint, for which the size of such places would afford no remedy. The first evil which he should notice was the insufficiency of food allotted to the prisoners. In Newgate, they have a weekly allow ance of bread and meat, as well as a Sheriff's Fund' for supplying other necessaries : but it wag specifically stated in the Reports, that the quantity of food was not sufficient to support life, if the prisoners were not otherwise assisted by their friends. The number of persons in Newgate always fluctuated. Mr. New. man had stated, that it was never less than could consume all the provisions: and often the number was so great, that the quantity was not near suffi cient ; and in those cases, after the allowance had been divided. by the turnkeys in the open yard, the prisoners were left to get more how they could. The persons committed for trial laboured under peculiar hardship; : they were allowed but ten ounces of bread per day, and six pounds of potatoes per week. These persons had no right to complain that they were taken from their daily labour : this was incident to their offences : but if it were foupd to be necessary for the ends of justice to confine a man before trial, he certainly ought at least to be supplied with sustenance. There was no regulation in these prisons for the sup plying of clothing. All the bedding afforded to pri. soners committed for trial consisted of two rugs ; and as no straw was allowed, fur fear cf fire, a person must sleep in his clothes, which was inconsistent either with cleanliness or health. The Honourable Gentle man then alluded to the fees which were demanded, and the inability to pay which subjected the prisoner to various annoyances and indignities, such as being I driven from the fire, and having his clothes seized on. It had been stated by Mr. Newman, that if a. very small allowance were made, it would put an end to this shameful practice. Another strange evil was, that men under sentence of death could purchase as much wine and beer as they pleased, provided each man had not more than a pot of beer or a bottle of wine at a time. But when any man got drunk and committed excesses, the whole ward was punished by the exclusion of all the friends of the people it con tained. There was no discipline of any kind in New gate, and Mr. Newman had admitted, that the pockets of those who went in were frequently picked. Before the present Report was drawn up, he (Mr. H.) with the Committee, had come to Newgate, and was on the roof, when their attention was called to a distur bance in the yard, wi•ere they saw a regular boxing match between two criminals, stripped and fettered, having their bottle holder, and sitting on the knees of their seconds as systematically as if they were fighting in a field. Nor was tins disgraceful outrage stopped, till a warthy Alderman suggested to the Governor to interfere. The next topic he should no tice was, the case of respectable persons coming in depressed and broken-hearted for debt, and who were not prepared to pass at once from the comforts of a home to alociety so depraved--the cause of morality as well as of humanity, dictated some alteration in their mode of imprisonment. He objected to the re gulations on what was called the Master's side of Newgate, but not to the State side, though in neither case ought the sums paid by the parties confined to go into the jailor's pocket. Though some distinction ought to be made between the various prisoners com mitted to Newgate, the 31st of the King contained no exception in favour of persons who could pay the jailor 2s. 6d. per week for superior accommodation. It often happened that the highwayman or the house breaker would be most competent to pay for those comforts which were not afforded to the prisoners generally, by those who were supported by the profligate who were yet at large, and who would be willing to furnish such assistance, lest discove ries should be made nearly affecting themselves.- -Another subject which he thought called for'parti cular attention was the manner in which the religions duties of the several prisons were performed. On examining four Chaplains of the five city prisons (the fifth prison had none), the result was not very satis factory. The .keepers it appeared had never been compelled to attend the chapels in their prison them selves, and it should seem they preferred going with their families to church. The Ministers spoke of the conduct of the prisoners at Chapel, as being disor derly, but one of them certainly spoke rather of the past than of the present, as he was 70 years of age, lived 15 miles from the prison, and was so ill, that be could not pass a night in town. Dr. Ford, the Or dinary of Newgate, considered his duties confined to the performance of chapel service, and to attend ance on those culprits who were under sentence of death. In his examination he had said lie knew no thing of the state of morals in the prison, and that he never heard of a convict being sick till he ivas called Upon to attend a,t his funeral. He had never consi dered it a part of his duty to' attempt to reclaim young persons, and others who were confined for crimes which were not liable to be punished by death. He (Mr. Holford) had seen some boys in the prison, . - ) and had had the curiosity to ask them if they knew the Chaplain ? They answered in the affirmative, and acknowledged with much gratitude that they had derived great benefit from the instruction which he had humanely given them, and shewed him several articles with which they had been supplied by his kindness. He (Mr. Holfurd ) had upon this observed, that the Ordinary did himself great injustice in not stating that he acted thus by persons in their situation, when he was set right by the keeper, who informed him, that the Gentleman, who had been mistaken by the boys for the Chaplain, was one of those olicious persons who were stated by the Ordinary, in his exa mination, to be in the habit of intruding themselves into the prison, and who were incessantly employed in cramming the prisons (that was his expression) with prayers and preaching. The allowance of the Ordinary of Newgate was sufficiently liberal (more so than the allowance of many Clergymen).— The fault was, care had not been , taken to see the duties of the office properly performed. After some further remarks on the evils of the present system, he observed he had now made out a case which, in his opinion, called for the interference of Parliament. He had been told there was no necessity for the bill which he proposed to bring in, and it had been said the City would remedy the evil by appointing three Aldermen to superintend the prison, one of whom should be exchanged monthly, till the whole Court of Aldermen had performed this duty. He however thought it would be better that a permanent Com mittee should be appointed, to consist of Members of the Courts of Aldermen and Common Council. From the superintendence of such Committee, he thought the evils he complained of, would find a more inane diate and effectual remedy. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill for the better manage ment of the City Prisons. Sir. W. CURTIS said the City were now anxi ously endeavouring to remedy the evils which had been brought under the considetation of the House by the Honourable Gentleman. Many of them would be done away, when the large prison now erecting was completed. The case of persons committed for trial was not so very hard as the Honourable Gentle man might think, as, for the most part, they were only committed to Newgate one day before the com mencement of the Sessions. He contended, the City ought not to be put to the expence of feeding and clothing prisoners, so as to tempt disorderly persons to break the laws, that they might get food and new clothes. In various instances, prisoners had not hard ships to complain of to the extent supposed. What ever evils existed, the City could and would supply the best remedy. If the City Magistrates were not competent to take care of their own prisons, they were unfit to hold their situations. Mr. DOUGLAS observed, no one wished to make such provision for persons confined as should lead the lower orders to think it a desirable thing to get into prison, but he thought when regulations were neglected which were essential to their health, they were made to undergo a punishment which the law had never intended they should suffer. Mr. Alderman ATKINS thought, if the Honour able Gentleman had had patience to wait till the new prison was completed, and till he could see what was intended to be done by the City Magistrates, he would have been satisfied with their measures, and abstained from bringing the subject under the consi deration of the House. Till the New Jail was com pleted, he hoped the Honourable Gentleman would not pres; the Bill hr proposed to biting in, till the effects of the measures now in progress were seen; he trusted he would not think it necessary. Mr. BENNETT expressed his disapprobation of the theatrical manner in which culprits ordered for execution were exhibited at a condemned sermon, with a coffin on the table before them. From the evidence elthe Ordinary (which he read) it appear ed that many of the criminals were so much against being thus exposed, that were it possible, they would willingly submit to be executed twice over to aitoid it. Some were so hardened that they did not care how they were exposed ; but, in a recent instance, he knew some of those who were to die had falsely stated themselves to be dissenters to escape this ex posure in the Chapel. Sir J. SHAW stated 822 persons to have been late)i confined in Newgate, which had only been in tended to contain 400. While such was the effect of the pressure of the times, many inconveniences must be felt which could not be avoided. Various regula tions were in contemplation, which would remove some of the evils which had been noticed by the Hon. Gentleman. It was intended that prisoners discharg ed by the Magistrates should pay no fees—that pri soners against whom no bills were found should be discharged without paying fees—that the Magistrates who attended the Session eight times in the year should visit the prisons; their report and observations to be inserted in a book kept for that purpose—that the Surgeons and Sheriffs should also visit them, and re port their observations to the Lord Mayor and Court of Aldermen—that garnish money should be abolish ed—that the keepers should be handsomely paid in money, &c. As much care was taken to prevent riot ing in the prisons as could be taken by human beings. He wished the Hon. Gentleman to withdraw his mo tion. Mr. PHILLIPS was of opinion, if the City Magis. trates were so competent to redress the evils complain. ed of, they ought to have supplied a remedy before. The new jail, of which so much had been said, he thought likely to create a greater evil than that which it was designed to remedy. On viewing it he had been struck with its great inferiority to many coun try jails. It seemed to be constructed on a plan to exclude ventilation. The provision at present made by the City for the support of persons in confinement, was such that, without the aid of subscriptions from their friends, it would not keep them alive. Mr. WROTTESLEY had heard nothing which did not tend to support the eloquent statement of the Hon. Gentleman who brought forward this motion. He believed the City meant to remedy the evils com plained of, and thought it would be better for them selves, that they should supply that remedy by the Bill which the Hon. Gentleman proposed to bring in. He hoped the worthy Alderman would not oppose it. Mr. Alderman SMITH said, the Report which had been made on this subject was erroneous in many respects. It stated bread to be brought into the pri son every other day, whereas it was taken in every morning. The regulation, made by the prisoners themselves for garnish money, he did pot think unfair. He hoped if the Bill was brought in those who noted for if would find the money very necessary for cars rying its provisions into effect. Mr. Alderman COMI3E objected to the motion. Mr. H. SUMNEIt had never witnessed a scene of greater disorder than that which this prison presented five years ago, when it was not so full as it had been of late from the pressure of the times. He thought the new prison very badly constructed for ventilation, and trusted, before it was opened, another Corn dace of that House would be appointed to inspect it, in or der to judge of its fitness to receive prisoners. Mr. P. MOORE was confident the present conver sation would do good. As we had pined a state of peace, he hoped there would he less occasion lot jails than ever. (4 1..;h.) The ptoposition of the Hon. Gentleman opprsite had been met with gre liberality by the City Members, and he hoped ro ct sure would be passed on them or on the City. Mr. HO RNEIt thought his Hon. Friend cni.14.1 not have attended to what had fallen from the City Members, or he would not have made the Hon. Ba ronet below him (Sir XVilliam Curtis) blush fur the unmerited compliment he had thoueet proper ioie. - stow. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. lliolfoi d) ( e.-1 nut propose to censure the City : the object of his ri.,•:• was to procure something more useful than e-- redress. He hoped he would not suffer him;elt :o be put off with fine pledges, which (without any disrespect to any pers whatever) through various circumstances, like mmy form-e -pledges, be never redeemed. He moreover trussed he would not stop in his course tor the assurances I e might receive of the good which this conversation would of itself effect. The City, which conceived itself so competent to redress, had not always caused its orders to be attended to. In proof of this, he read two Resolutions of the Court of Common Council, which were passed in 1810, but which had never been attended to. One of these ordered that the keeper's fees should be abolished ; the other, that le. natics should not be confined in Newgate. They were told to wait till the new jail was fin:,.lied, and that would do away all -cause of complaiiit.-- Would that remove all the evils which had been de tailed to that House ? Would that, for instance, cure the Ordinary who had (he would not say in the charge of his duty) deported himself so impropeily before the Committee ? A more indecent exhibitioe of a total want of feeling, of disregard for common decorum, he had never witnessed. His conduct hal been not only unbecoming a man holding the situa tion he filled, but such .as was not to be expected from a man pretending to have any regard for mo rality. The evidence he had given when examined was more like the imprudent boastings of a profligate buffoon, than the replies of a Clergyman to questions put by a Committee of that House. If the City were so competent to redress the evils to which the atten tion of the House had been drawn, ought not the misconduct of this man to have been known to them and to have been checked ? Ile (the Ordinary), when interrogated on the subject of his conduct, I:ad referred the Committee to his instructions. He rate:- red to his instructions to defend his misconduct '-- In those instructions he was particularly charged to attend to the table, but his instructions were not so strict in other respects. He was asked 4. Do you never make a report on the state of morals in the prison ?" His answer w as, "No ; I know nothing *of the morals of the prison." When he was asked .‘ It he were not called upon to give religious admo- • nitions to persons confined in the prison who were sick ?"—his answer was--“ No ; I never hear of persons being sick till I am called upon to at tend their funeral." Must they wait for the completion of the new prison before any thing could be done with respect to this man ?—(Heaa.) Why was not something done before ? This man had been 16 years in their service. The manner in which he had given his evidence proved that that conduct, which to him appeared to be so culpable, was no tem porary lapse, but resulted from hardened depravity of mind, and habitual neglect of duty. Yet the City had overlooked for years the conduct of this man, who, instead of being a corrector of the morals of those confined in Newgate, would probably be found to make them more depraved. He hoped the Hon. Gentleman would persist in his motion, and that the Bill would be brought in. Sir W. CURTIS said, the conduct of the Ordi nary of Newgate had never been brought before the 7,41 111 . City, as it had now been brought before the House. His deportment before the Committee merited severe reprehension. After a few words from Mr. Alderman C. SMITH. and Sir J. SHAW in explanation ; and from Mr. H. THORNTON in support of the motion, leave was givers to bring in the Bill. HIGHWAY AND ROADS BILL. On the motion of Mr. BYNG, for considering the amendments made by the Lords in this Bill, The SPEAKER said he must inform the House, that the Lords had made an amendment respecting • the receipt of money for tolls, with which, as it was not their province to interfere, the Bill became inva• lidated. It would therefore be necessary to m.lver that the Bill be further considered this day three months, and leave might be given to bring in a new Bill on the subject. This was accordingly nesel for, and agreed to. qtr ' ) 1 • 'tf", APPRENTICE BILL. Mr. St. PAUL brought up the Report of the .gyp. I prentice Mr. P. MOORE enquired why the Bill, with 1:1 recent amendments, had not been printed as otderel by the House ? It had been ordered to be printed (.% the 7th of June. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW thought such an or.' • had not been made. On reference to the Journals the Order could : • be found. Mr. P. MOORE afterwards admitted he had I , c(m mistaken, and that it was another 13111 that had becq ordered to be printed on that day. Sir F. FLOOD stated it to be his intention to give the Big no further opposition. After a few words from Mr. PROTHERO, Mr. Al derman ATKINS, Mr. PHILLIPS, Mr. Wftovrposv, Mr. TuosaPsoa, Sir J. SHAW, Mr. Rosa, and Sro R. PEEL; the Resolutions of the Report were agreed to. and the Bill ordered to be engrossed, and read a tho 'time to morrow. Mr. ARBUTHNOT brought up a variety ot ri pen connected with the Army Services. Some Gth Orders were disposed of, and the House.sidjourn(J. _ THE EVE? LO? WEIMESDAY 01 1 1101 OF sTOCICS THIS I Reduced 69,11—Cons for se 4iiii—Bant Lo India Ronde, 6s. 71. pre.--Fa We have received Pa minor Journal announce' FRAM) #'TOlll the Island a IMPARTS'S insanity has serious character, that hi The Aintiteur of the 1' ior re-modelling the Fre The members are Vice-i %faller de Rosie', Captain uacke and Beautempi Institute. Engineers— Raoul, Dausscy, Nay Givry, and Gressier. The proceedings of the nothing of striking irate DOMOI,ARD, a Committee tain the names of such I birth, and not regularly is preliminary to a Motic The Dike of Orlean whence he will embark 1 his wife, who is erwriaft pregnancy. Ile will 6ri she Is able to travel. 1-1 bahly be a)sent t:lyce or PAM! The election of M. Chamber of Dertnies, Majesty. There was a review which created a most di .off very peaceably at la: belonging to the Nation the occasion. Cardinal Maury and the bead of the Police o Memoirs in justificatic The former asserts the gv&d : the latter rites acts of his administrat chapter to the Punphl Marshal Dg es M. that M. de Bourienne is The flos pieces of 1 of Notre Dame, which it Ni and other insignii ordered to be desuoye here ably daubed, how Which has now been n IS as besotifol as over tiVe have frankly ezi taln tespettittg the clAn inking hie years coo repeats-that nothing b ALIDTER of the fate of follow the execution of stances tVisateVer. whet can justify a public o practices directly oppo tice. What I Declare AND UNDIVIbID THINI pa in possession of Co to withhold ; and be st on a Trade in Slaves to impiety 1- It is never too late to told, forsooth, that the Agit&iAe swim& of :onto French be yet told tha the British Governmt pep& Englawd.—Th , le) many sacrifices to never consent to entail the human race. Frnm the following of the industry with w b: pursued, should thi sSe nation, as one trial respectful but firm pel against so flagrant an iet us see whe&er the men or English free r Si such introttance tc —Let not this grcat firavrs by tacitly pi injustice to be perrett 4naviildnatistr!" eartiser 0Y A LITTILI D •TSD " f ar's'e you 1 have a AI I ItilVe tteeu kept maw re 1 41.,g the Stsve-•pceetat debolate, 1 am sorry to to have wised on diffiren I. 'ported ; 1 have done ti st e ;lave-felony Act. r more nt before thins, t:thensht—tortos awl the rekat..° of the An vre..lictiont—and they otto:b they have nut ytA I 4 " I have ve:uten home at without tome prompt powilsie to cheek !MI .ca 1 4 from t/..e 1111141 sot L iaintt a hotly d 4er: Jet I, 1 r g. 1 gic scisuastivit, suatac uy ism ii.u.a , ,..Lea ern, cunuccieti iiVIIII the army services. Some Gorr mselves for garnish money, he did not think unfair. Orders were disposed o f, and the HouseeidjournkJ. ) .....................e. ' -- . . ... 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