Star. — London, England, 1810-04-17 00:00:00

f iy many Members, that it a petition were then pre s2nted, he should be discharged. He had since that ime suffered five week.' imprisonment for the neglect 01 petitioning, and if this etiquette was not thought ..dy purchased off by his additional suffering, was h io •ger on still in jail, unless, by the pressure misfortune on his mind, he was broken down into the untruth of acknowledging that he had given up his prisciples, and was guilty, when he still believed himsel. to he innocent ? Was it the only alternative of this concession th:it he must remain in confinement till July ? And for what was this severe privation of 1:!, •rtv For all adherence to what he deemed the truth ! Allowingthat. Mr. Jones had entertained erro neous opinions of the extent of their privileges (and fir the moment he (sir Samuel) would allow them to be erroneous) —supposing that person to have been in. Sueneel by any of those motives, which, after all, made yip a large part ofthe decision of the wisest among men; respect for other a inhority, a long habit of cherishing certain feelings, and fixing his eye upon certain views of truth —a kind of vague conviction that the liber ty of man is implicated in the matter of dispute ; or even if his error arose from the misuse of the lights which he had, if he had misunderstond precedents or mistaken principles; was there no provision against his error, was there no remedy in the State-herbal for his malady, but Imprisonment ? Was this punish ment, Whicls.might be made the most severe of all visitations, to be inflicted for difference of Opinion ? And, in the end, was the sufferer to be released, not by the justice of the House, but by its want of power? Supposing Mr. Jones indissolubly wedded to his opinion, an obstinate heretic, was it to be justi fied that the worst of all the kinds of punishment, in definite punishment, (4 the hope deferred," that op presses and hinds down the whole man more heavily than any infliction which he can measure with his eye and prepare to encounter, should be les • loOse upon 'him for such an offence as that which he had corn rnitted ; or that the homage of Mr, Jones, a man in humble life, should he thought the only thing that could appease the angry pride of the House ? This was not to be persisted in ; but, let the feeling of offendei dignity be wh it it might, there were supe rior feelings which the House would acknowledge.— Those were the feelings of justice, the feelings of rea son, the feelings of that great compund of justice 'and virtue, humanity. The Honourable Member 'concluded a most eloquent speech, by moving that Mr. Gale Jones should be summoned to the bar of the House on Tuesday, and then discharged. Mr. Secretary RYDER.—Much as he admired the speech of the Honourable Member who had just spo. ken, he must dissent from him on the main question. If it had been necessary for the.ofeniing person to deny his opinions at the Bar, he (Mr. Ryder) might admit the reasoning of his Hon. Friend (Sir S. Ra nsil] y), but itswas now common-place ; and as it did not touch the point, must pass away with other elo qvient effusions of the same kind. The only thing required was a Petition, praying for release, and ex pressing contrition for having incurred the displea sure of the House. The present question was mere ly, if there was any thing in Mr. Jones's case to au thorize a deviation from the custom of requiring a submission before the House ? He might retain his opinions, but he was only asked to do now what he did when he was already at the Bar—( Hear, hear, from the altimition).—An Hon. Gentleman had been applied to present • a petition on his behalf—(Near, hear.) —This circumstance did not materially alter the case. Mr. Jones might have been let out a month ago ; bat he remained in prison, to brave the House, and after proving them wrong, force them to devi ate from their usual practice, and dismiss him with out the proper submission at their Bar. Lord A. HAMILTON felt peculiarly anxious that no doubt of his - sentiments should be left on this occasion. The doctrines of the Right Hon. 'Secretary were not of an order to heal the breach that was be tween the House and the Country. The person whose ease was now under consideration had done nothing derogatory to the privileges of the House. Breach of Privilege was a general cry, and undefined cant, which never struck his ears without raising a suspicion Of those from whom it came. Reporting the debates of the House had been idly construed into a breach of privilege, and at length it was peaceably acquiesced in as an advantage. But he was glad to find that no Appendage had been hung to the question of the release. He (Lord A. Hamilton) had stated his opinion when the question first came before the House; he then thought that the House wandered strangely from its due course when it condescended to take up a private quarrel ; the offence was gives by Mr. Jones to Mr. Yorke—an individual against an indivi dual. As the quarrel was private, it ought to have been determined between private persons. The House occupied as it should be, in the great concerns of the *Empire, should not have stooped from its dignity to pour the weight of its vengeance on a man of whom they knew nothing more than that he had turned Mr. Yorke, the Teller of the Exchequer, to ridicule. By the unfortunate' notice which the House was led to take of that quarrel, a train of circumstances, some disgraceful, some most disastrous, were drawn on, till the privileges of the House began to be looked on by the people as instruments of danger, and ques tioned by even themselves as rights of usurpation.— Perhaps the circumstances under which Mr. Jones's . irritation arose, were such as might justify no slight popular discontent. A great expedition, the greatest that ever left a British port, had failed—the Officers threw the blame on each other—the Ministry came to open violence upon it—the people demanded an enquiry into the causes of that most dreadful cala mity—the House promised it ; public expectation was awakened, and waiting to see justice done. The trial began, and in tantly the gstes of that great tem ple of national jiistice were shut. 'Was it not natural that the excluded people should at least express their surprise ? that wandering round the courts of that 'Tempt=, they should be dissatisfied with hearing only the broken scattered responset that might be perio dically issued out from the shrine, to feed and to elude popular anxiety ? Admitting that such a feel ing v:as wrong, it was natural ; and Mr. Jones was only one, among many, whO felt displeased at the act 4nd its author ; but his offence was not levelled at the Mesa. In what predicament would the House 1,,e placed by the doctrines of the Right Honourable Secretary ? He admitted that the Petition was profrosed—(Hear, hear,) —and did he actually think i a . becoming the dignity cst that House, SA Pleasure . Its punishments, not. by the gitanu not by the natural principles of power of the offender to hold out making the wisdom of the House batant of the folly of an individtu good sense to depend upon Mr. ; An adjournment might be so m; the prisoner for any indefinite .time; and was this to be called only A fit punishment, for want of facility in the accused person ? With respect to Parliamen tary privileges, he (Lord -A. Hamilton) revere& them, as they, ought to be revered, in the mild exer cise of their power ; but if that power was strong, its use ought to be delicate; and to make their privileges what they ought to be in point of vigour, they must be used in that forth, from which they should never have been diverted in point of principle. They should be used for the protection of the rights of the people. Mr. FULLER thought the qUestion lay within a narrow compass. To his mind it appeared to be only whether the prisoner had been sufficiently punished or not? If he had been sufficiently punished, why were they to have him called to their bar to acknowledge his offence? That House had nobly cut up the . Pre. rogatives of the Crown, which had been previously undefined : it now became their duty to reduce to some definite state its own privileges, which even the Right Honourable Member in the Chair would find difficult to understand. They were bound to define their privileges, and not continue to commit during the session. It was no matter whether a party were committed for three days or three months, as no thing could be more absurd than to commit with out any certain rule to go by. The subject had a right to have some measure of offences and punish ment established. They ought to enact a Magna Charm of Parliament, as they had the great Charter of their Civil Liberties and Rights-- " Aquam memento, " I(i:bus in arduis, " Servare nientem !" As it was admitted on all hands that Gale Jones had been sufficiently punished, he ought to be discharged. If they should not enact some statute on the subject, he was determined, whenever a question arose for a commitment, to vote for the commitment for a cer tain period. If their privileges should be left in their present vague and undefined state, no man's house could be safe. But as heahad been already very se verely reprimanded for a breach of these privileges, in order to avoid being led too.far by irritation, he should read from a paper what undefined privilege could do. The Honourable Member then read, that such privilege could put it. in the power of a nervous Chairman of a Committee to call upon the Speaker .for protection—it could give the Speaker the power to order a person to withdraw, and to the House that of ordering him into custody, without allowing him the opportunity of hearing the charge against lum— it could give the power of •keeping him in confinement, to the great affliction of his family, and so as neatly to cause the death of some of his connections ; and then it could give the power of reprimanding the per son for in offence:which, at Common Law, would not be punished by a fine of five shillings. If that re primand should go down to posterity upon the Jour nals, it would be more injurious to the House than to the individual, in the minds of the people. Lord FOLKSTONE wished to set the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Secretary Ryder) right, as to what he had stated to be the practice of the House respecting petitions Tbat Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that it was not necessary for Mr. Gale Jones to acknowledge his offence, or retract any opinion in his petition, in order to his being discharged, but merely to state his regret for having incurred the displeasure of the House. To shetit that the Right Hon. Gen tleman was not correct in this statement, he had only to refer to a petition which he remembered to have presented a few years since, from a Mr. Drake, who had been ordered into custody for prevarication in his evidence at the bar, for having told lies and-Incredi ble stories, respecting himself, during his examina tion' as a witness before that House. That petition he had brought up, and, when it had been read, he moved that it be laid on the table ; but was thee informed by the Speaker it was contrary to the established practice of the House to place any such petition on its table, unless the petitioner submitted to the authority, and craved the mercy of the House, at the same time acknowledging the justice of the sen tence. Some days after he had presented this peti tion, however, it was found that all that Mr. Drake had said was perfectly correct. The consequence was, that Mr. Drake having been committed for sup posed lies and prevarication, was suffered to remain in confinement, because -he would not acknowledge that to be false which was afterwards found to be true. Though he had not remained long in such confinement, the Parliament having been dissolved in three or four days after, yet that did not alter the nature of the case. Having stated this case, and the decision of the Chair upon it, he was authorised to asstnne it to be the invariable practice of the House to require a petitioner to submit to the mercy of the House, and acknowledge the justice of his sentence. As the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ryder), there fore had stated that, if that were the practice of the House, he shonld vote that Mr. Jones be discharged, . he had a right to expect that the Right Honourable Gentleman would be as good as his word, and vote for the motion of his Honourable and Learned F7iend,,l whose common places, as represented by the Riglit Honourable Gentleman, appeared to him to consist of most able, eloquent, and conclusive arguments.— Upon the whole, he was convinced that Mr. Jones oughtlo be discharged, and should therefore vote fur the motion. Mr. CURWEN observed, that the able speech of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman who brought forward this motion, was in itself sufficient to recom mend this important question to the most serious con sideration of the House. The case of Gale Jones at present seemed to him to. be, not that he should be continued in confinement for contempt, but for the obstinacy arid pertinacity with which he persisted in declining to submit himself, by petition, to the mercy of the House. Though he had not been present on the occasion, he was well informed that Mr. Jones had respectfully submitted to the authority ofehe Hi,use, when first brought to the bar. That having been the :case, then, he would ask, whether the House would punish him for that obstinacy to which he might hive been worked up by others, in abstaining from apply ing for his release by petition ? The House on this (ACCUiQn ,should leave out of its coasideration every, ling Mr. Jones, or the circurnstaeces lot shrnents that the country was to be saved. When. have prevented him from petitioning. ever peace may come, it would be a serious questi on • would , do what became its own dignity, how far such reduction could be effected ? but the persuaded that it would be more honour- difficulties attending that question were only to be as well as gain them more respect from removed by a strong, firm, and efficient Adminis. discharge this man than to continue tration, combining all the talents in the Hou se . F or .intent. There might, and he had no doubt, the propriety of forming such an Administratio n , h e there were persons who would attribute such an act to amid appeal to the House whether they thought it motives dishonourable and base. But . were they to could under any circumstances of difficulty be driven regard such feelings ? ' Were they to neglect to do a from its bias to the public interest by any minor core duty, because wicked men might ascribe bad motives siderations ? Such an Administration cou t l h d e no c t o l to them ? He concurred in all the sentiments of the formed from either side of the House. It was the Honourable and Learned Member who brought for- . duty of the Members of that House to attend to this ward this question ; he was persuaded that it would great subject ; and of all those who bad high char ge. be cruel to call upon a man to retract or renounce ters in that House, and great weight as well as stake opinions, the truth of which he might conscientiously: in the country, to unite for that Important purpose, believe. Such a principle was unknown. to the laws If such a body should declare themselves, of this free country ; at least, he knew of no law that try would soon rally round them, and then their pri. called fur such a renunciation. If the dignity of that vileges would be cheerfully acquiesced in, as privi . 1 House required that such a principle should be acted leges given solely for the interest ofthe 1 1 people..-- upon,e... — upon, he should be the last man that wou ld vote for . .The. Bill he had the . honour to bring forward last the discharge of Gale Jones without complying ; year, though abused by some and ridiculed by others, with the established forme. Whatever might have had yet, he trusted, produced some good, and would been his opinion as to the nature of the offence, as lead to that gradual and temperate reform which WAS the House had decided it to be a breach of its privi- the most difficult to he accompllis(du.rnOiflitnhteaßsipgohst. leges, it was not for him to dispute the propriety of Honour able Gentleman o pposite (the Chancello r o f le such decision. But the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. the Exchequer) he was always disposed to speak • Secretary Ryder) argued the propriety of requiring a handsomely ; but be could not o petition, on the ground of precedent. Could not that sessed of force and vigour enough for times like these. 1 Right Hon. Gentleman perceive, that if there were The hopes of the country, he should repeat, depend. j any value in that argument, he might on the same ed altogether upon a combination of all the talents ground refuse his assent to the discharge of Gale and respectability in that House. Having stated thus Jones, if he did not appear at the bar on his knees , much upon the general situation of the country, he as in the case of Murray, alluded to by the Hon. and should revert. to the question before the Hotice ; and Learned Gentleman on the floor ? Whatever might on this he should only say that he would vote for the be the course of precedents heretofore, this was a time , liberation of Gale Jones, conceiving that such a mee. j when he was of opinion the House ought to make a : sure would not compromise the honour, the dignity, different precedent. He was determined to stand by .cr the character of that House. the House in every thing that was necessary to its : Sir THOMKS TURTON was of opinion that dignity ; but he did not think that would be best con.; the individual to'whom the motion referred, had suf. suited by protracting the punishment of an individual, fered punishment enough. * If he had, he would ask • becatise he would not apply for his enlargement, by •, whether it was consistent with their dignity not to pat subniitting to acknowledge the justice of his s entence, an end to the punishment ? The o ff ence f or w hi c h and craving the mercy of the House. At this criti- he had been imprisoned had existed for several years, i cal • and awful period, it was his opinion that the i and might have been borne either by t h e H ouse er I House should not shut its eyes to the real state of the : any individual Member. These debating Societies country. He was one of those, who, so fir from ; had been held for several years without having been i i thinking, as had been some time since stated within taken notice of ; and Gentlemen might recollect to their walls, that that House. in point of reputation, I have seen the names of Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox, men I had not a leg to stand on, he was fully and satisfac- i great in mind, and great in character, placarded in 1 I torily persuaded that such an aspersion was absolutely 1 the same ma nner as . in the instance which had been Ifalse. He was bound, nevertheless, to admit that they ! complained of. He had had no doubt that the ph. Idid not possess that high degree of public confidence I cud was a libel ; but he thought th a t i t was un. which ought to belong to the rn t .If by forbearing to i worthy of the Honourable Member to notice it. But discuss their real difficulties, the bald remove them, I when it had been brought under the observation of 1 that might be a reason why they should pass them : the House, it must have been punished, though not 1 over without notice. But, in his opinion, the only I severely. When Jones had expressed contrition cf true way of averting danger was to look it in the face, I his offence at the bar, it was his oeinion that it would and these were times which imperiously called upon j have been most consistent with the dignity of the them to meet every difficulty with fortitude and spirit. j House to have discharged him. As a difference of eThe great bulk of the nation, he was convinced,.was ; opinion prevailed upon the subject, both in and out firmly attached to elle Constitution and the Govern- of the House, it would have well become that House ment, and ready to make all the sacrifices which the I not to appear to punish the offence vindictively. It circumstances of the times might require. He was was scarcely to be expected, that a man convinced he bound, however, to admit, that the country had many was right, could be brought to acknowledge himself grievances to complain of ; and these that House was wrong. When he had last year moved for the re. most particularly called upon to attend to and redress. lease of Genera . ' Clavering, he was told that his ap. Under this impression, it was with considerable satis- plication would be fruitless, unless General Clavering faction he learned that an Hon. Member ( Mr. Brand) should, by petition, acknowledge his error, and sub. had that evening given notice of a motion for a Par. mit himself to the mercy of the House. But Gene. liamentary Reform. It was impossible-for any Hon ral Clavering would have submitted to rot in prison Member to listen to the sentiments expressed out of rather than admit, what he was convinced he was in. doors, and not be convinced of the necessity of some capable of, that he had been guilty of prevaricatioe reform of the representation in Parliament. Iu order Then it was said that it was enough that the person to shew how the feelings of the House and of the should say he was sorry for having incurred the die country pointed out the expediency of adopting some pleasure of the House. But could any one suppose measure fOr that purpose, he had only to advert to that he was not sorry for it ? As to the obstinacy that the attention which was uniformly paid to every thing was imputed to hint, would not persecution or prose. that fell tiom the Hon. Member for Yorkshire (Mr. , cution be likely to make any man obstinate ? But by Wilberforce.) This mark of respect that Hon. Mem- keeping Mr. Gale Jones in confinement, would he be ber receive 3 in a much .higher degree- than many likely to come out either a better subject or with other Honourable Members, who, without meaning fewer partizans ? This was a case' in which they' any thing offemive to that Honourable Member, might ought to make a precedent, if they had none to go justly be compared voith him in every other respect. by. Why keep the man in prison ? Was there any To what was this owing but to the nettiral weight thing in the temper of the times to induce the House which must naturally belong to any thing coming to that course ? He could wish that the Learned from the representative of fifty thousand constt- Gentleman had not brought forward this question at tuents ? This shewed how necessary a Reform was, this time. Though he thought that they should not which would give to the Members of that House the act under the apprehension of being thought afraid ; representative respectability of the collective number I yet he would rather be suspected of fear than convic of their constituents. When he talked of reform, he ted of injustice. He should, therefore, perform an, did not mean any of those wild and visionary theories act of justice to the individual, by voting for the mo which had so frequently been recommended in hitter tion of the Honourable andlLearned Member who had times. His wish was to infuse into that House a greater so ably and eloquently recommended it to the Howe. portion than it contained in its present constitution of The MASTER of the ROLLS thought there the landed interest. Feeling as he did upon this were two questions whi required the consideratino head, he could not but condemn that prodigality of of the House. First, whether the individual now the the honours of nobility which had robbed that House subject of debate had suffered for his offence a measure of so much respectability, without adding any thing of punishment commensurate with that offence ; ant to the consideration of the other House set Pei liament. secondly, whether that being the case, there was or There was another point also upon which he must was not to be found on the journals of the House any express his most decided regret and disapprobation ; form or practice 'acted upon which would operate a , namely, of that list which, upon the motion of the a bar to his discharge ? To speak of the latter point tli Noble Lord, the Member for Westminster, had been Learned Gentleman confessed that he wished he was laid upon their table. In fliat list of persons, lie vets much better acquainted with the history of that prao sorry to find the names of persons without merits ;to rice than he was. He wished to be informed whether perceive that pensions were granted to the relatives of there was any established order to be found again st persons who would and ought to be ashamed to take the discharge of a person under circumstances l ike such paltry sums from the public pulse. It was by ; Mr. Jones, or whether there wa s any uniformussg: no means his opinion that if the whole of such pen- so as to justify the. refusal to discharg e him . H . sions were done away, they would in any material de- was unwilling to lock at the es tablished usa g es, be grec contribute to r e li e ve the public burthens ; but cause the presumption was in their favour, but he when it was found that such grants were taken by could not think they should be so far supported as to persons connected with the higher classes, the cir- lead to plain and palpable injustice. In the . prese_t cunistance would te n d g r e atly to excite and continue 1 c*se , when it was stated that Mr. J ones could not be that distrust of public men which had unfortunately I discharged until he had pet i t ioned, and when, on ls 'l.e risen to a greeter height of late than ever. 'There 1 other hand, it had been also stat ed that he had made was another circumstance mere immediately connec- I a confession of his offence, he must own that he was led with their pr ocee dings, whi c h was likewise an oh- not prepared to follow in any inquiry into all those jest of regret in the present situation of the country ; consequences which it had been stated mi g ht arise la he meant that practice of personal crimination and re- the event of Mr. Jones not being discharged. Tfe a iniiiiation which had too often lately disgraced their 3 Right Hon. Secretary had stated, that i t was not ne proceedings. The Ch a i r , h e was convinced, had • c essary, in the petition, to make an acknowledgolo s never been more ably filled, or its duties performed ''of the offence. Now he would wish to put a question to with more dignity and satisfaction, than by the me- I the Chair on that point, to know whether tha t . was sent Speaker ; yetle must observe that a great laxity the established usage, because, in that case, .htsoot e had crept in of late, which brought public men into would be governed by it. For the sake of tl ai discredit. Though he was persuaded that there were ment he would suppose it was. much integrity and talents on both sides of the House, titioning, the sentences of this House he must be allowed to say, that the personal alterca. definite time ; the prisoner might present . ape oas2 ent, in order° times to which lie had alluded had a direct tendency at an early period after his commitm ent, se to lower them in the public estimation. His only . produce an eerly discharge, ke ith w res ere pr o lt e ar t t o . pe a _ wish was, that the House should be rendered as re- , throws into that petition thoasendexhperesrons onfasteer2., spectable ; and, though he thought every item of ; which he conceives will induce the House to . c t o o: hl_ saving of importances yet it was not by subordinate ! with the prayer. Thus the practice . of pet' h a l. retrenchments, but by the reduction of the great este. may have been introduced to obtain a dt*charr6'7' tzie antic , / of tbc osvow. thin concerni f jostic4: bui by, thin 1 tin his opinioni-,ikin • —ln ;that it e to be tile i4lt a 'F and be was pe ial, and forcing ' able to them,. Jones's obstin .-;... the public, to lanaged as to confine his imprisonm,