Star. — London, England, 1831-10-05 00:00:00

f' ) ti t ). ;i. I. . 1 • ' 1 On :11 ran have was perhapsa popular assembly would not to I:ring his wind to it, cote for the second reading of the allow the bill to go to a Committee, but if yes do set, yes a., rpm, Kinu William in the war agalast King James.-- 11.11 Thy Noble lord was loudly cheered by die opposition. will I and there, as the bill is made to your bri g yes will (Hear, hear) But all the wars since had boss prat. The ' Viscount 111E1.11011/IN spoke to the following efßet : amend and change it according to the ram inn NNW sod war with America was popular till it wasitallelnimml (bear); " 31y Lords, lam most willing to concur with your Lord- Ned= of the House. (Hear t beat.) If oss i Moil im** sod he would admit it was for same dote osodoesd though ship* In applauding the abßitp displayed in the speeds Where What course will roe Looliddis Num? 111/bs the 6.R. •of the i n sh e N e w t e(Cammese b ut which we have just heard from my Noble 1 7 1-1,11; although de you propose If will Nig the lo fb Mal . . . _ _ . wide% ~li•tence _ _ crown in flisenee was not so great now as then, or as in the time of Sir Hobert Walpole, when there were :100 placemen in par. hament. The number was now much leas, and yet be was , 13 much of a refot—er, Out he would be glad to see that • part e our system revised. He would also most willingly rive rypresentati.m to large towns, and whenever he had the dipperitinily of transferring the franchise of a convicted bo lottgit. he always voted for it : but though large towns did 11n . %1' warn inesithers, their interests were well protected in pxli..ntert by snitvble representatives. He knew it was not enouch !'nr a el‘antry to be well governed, unless the maiorov tht, people—that portion of the people capable 01: judging—theught thems.:lves well governed. (Hear,) Whenever the confidence of the people was lost, it was the dul of Government to regain it, but not by changes that would endanger the intukutions of the country,—but by pp:tarrying what experience had proved to be valuable, in the cootidenee that the good sense of the people of England, however it might he deluded for a time, would return with gratitude to their benefactors. (Hear.) He thought there were no parts of the Constitution so decayed as to be incapa ble of itnprovernent. He was disposed to go so far as to attempt to render the bill less dangerous, but found it utterly impossible. (Hear.) The principle that pervaded the bill woe, that population was the basis of representation. (Hear.) He knew it was required that there should be 300 house holders paying . loL a heir; but why was a Member retained to certain places ?—because they had 2,000 inhabitants. Why were two Members retained to otberall—because they had 4 000 inhabitants, and this without any regard to property ; rcw cannot but tie! that much _— has fallen fain my Noble Friend might have better suited a Committeren the bill than a motion for its second reading. In what fell from my Noble Felend in an early part of his speech 1 en Irely rgree ; namely, that it is incumbent o:i the various Member of his Majesty's government to explain the pounds on which they support the measure; and therefore, without that intl. minion, I should have taken an oppottu , ity of sating the reasons which induce me to vote for the second reading of this bill. To many of the arguments of my Noble Friend it was impossible for me to listen without favour ; for they are arguments which I have myself urged dasher.. If ever there WAS an individual in the country more anxious than another that the affairs of the country might have gone at without our being forced to incur the hazard aad vapors bili:y which must result front so great and funds men,al a change in the House of Commons, I was that person. That great philosopher and statesman, Lord Be con, soya that the difference between civil affairs mad the sciences was, that while in the latter there should be as. thing but change and movement, the former should rest for support on authority and reputation. " Verum In re bus civilibut muted° etiatn in menus (even if the change were for the better) suspects est ob perturbationem ; cum cirilia autlioritate. consensu, fame, et opinione, non de monstra•ione nitantur. In artibus autem et scientiis tan quam is metalli todinia. omnia noels operibus et olterl oribus progressibus eircumstrepere debeut. Undoubtedly the perturbation arising from change Is to be avoided= but then the other terms of the proposition must be observed. you v.. . . Committee, and there is no other billa %bit ben pesiesh, If It is necessary, as is stated, to tltiaphk the people, if it is necessary to gee Led. ships *ill allow the bill to go to the Chmalmes. sad no you will spare yourselves the mortification a Ns= or of presenting some other bill. The had been directed against the details of at rb i l for the Committee, and I should wish to spore pint= ships' time by not now discussing them. I will um gps,,l therefore, into all the questions mooted by the noble mad . I do not deny that this isa measure of great i that it ewes a great change—that It will be ril4 = other great changes; that other measures will be itseeitti to carry It into complete effect. There must be a in the Constitution in respect to Ministers having are . t another place. There are some defects which may h e $ other changes. I wo u ld not exclude Ministers from that House, nor allow them to obtain seats there by any other means than the voice of the people. I should be exceed. ingly sorry to see such a change, but the Bill will make some changes necessary to adapt it to the working of the Constitution, and to the circumstances of the country g I but to erect these changes, I rely on the elasticity of the eenfti 11l lion, on hs adapting power, which has preserved and improved it in times past, and will not fail, I hope, on future occasions. lam departing, however, from the rule I laid down not to go into the detail., which demand more discussion than I can r.ow give them. I must ab. stain, though that is doing the measure injustice, because it la sot possible fer me to es . the length I wish. I implore . - but a peek of Commissioners were to be sent to bunt I, 300 householders. (Hear.) There was no country In which this principle had ever been tried but in France, in the wildest period of revolution. (Hear.) What reason could be given to all the towns under 10,000 inhabitants that were excluded from all representation? and what rea son could satisfy those having from 10.000 to 20,000 and but one representative, when places of 4,000 had two ? This was an objectionable principle, as there was no reason for it ; it was an injustice now established by Act of Pee. liament. If the increase of representation, founded ee pe. pupation, was given to countia and towns, what answer would they give to Ireland ? Those who opposed the Bill had a good answer to give—not to the agitators of Ireland, but to all who valued the connection with this country. The noble lord gave reasons for abolishing nomination boroughs, for giving representation to large _towns, and increased repre sentatives to counties ; but be had not given any reason why the right of election was to be changed in all places in the kingdom but the two Universities. He did not call the right of representation property in the strict sense of the word, but no right should ever be taken away without com pensation. in good government. All the boroughs of the kingdom were to be ewept away as regards their permanent st'Vern of representa ion. (Hear, bear.) Another objection was, the great inereue of electors. s bad more already than any other country. France was now regenerated it Lad a population of 32,000,000 and but 2110 , 000 electors. We liail already :)110.000. and by this bill that number was to be daub! (Hear, hear.) No one could deny that the great. est disorder and confusion moat be the result of such nu merous bodies of electors. That was to be the panacea ? It was to four.d in the independence and intelligence of the new electors. ( Hear, hear.) Their lordship* might re collect a pamphlet address.d to the Cones of Spain by a noble lard nppoai:r, which rulvi.ed them nor to establish one uni form tight of voting. (hear, from Lord Holland.) The lOL gaol le uion m'ght i t >o.ne place. give the franchise to very properiperson., ha• that would not be the ease in all places. (11:40 lie had asked himself this question, in what way was the heat atoembly for governing a country conatituted ? that what wouh! be the sort of assembly elected by persons not merely of 101. per annum, but of 3s. 10d. a week ? If a nutrer tts ecnstituency was considaed a security from bribery and corruptiol, he asked noble lords to look at Pu: , lia and Liverpool (Hear, hear) and at Westminster while it was contested. (Hear, hear.) It was said the ' judges of measures, but excellent . . That which it is proposed to change most be supposed by authority, consent, reputation, and opinion. If we find that the columns of that support are sapped and failing—lf we find that, instead of authority, there is a disrespect fur all au thoritr—if we find that, instead of consensus, there is Aster n*. if we find thr, instead of reputation and opinioo there are aversion and repudiation, it is then time to look about us, and to consider the situation in which we are plated it is then time to revert to the first principles of the constitution, that we may repair the edifice which is tottering and crumbling around us. (Hear.) My lords, we have been told by one of your lordships that we ought not to be governed crbitrio p.". Warcs snow; and that it frequently becomes the duty of legislative and representative bodies to resist the will of the people. I perfectly admit it; else why have a representative body at all? The wildest democrat in existence would hardly deny the proposition. But, my lords, although it may be our duty to resist the will of the people for a time, is it possiLle to resist it for ever? Have we not in this case 'existed it long enough ? (Hear.) I say this the more freely, bream's I have on former occasions been in the foreground in resisting parliamentary reform. Night after night have 1 resisted it in another place, going far beyond some of those who are now adverse to the present measure. I always opposed in the other House of Parliament the extension of the elective franchise to Manchester and Bir mingham. With reference to that period, I always look back with greet regret to the droinstaness which deprived the administration of that day of thesseviess of Mr. Hustle. so. I shall never cease to regret them, for I shall always think that he was not fairly treated'; and I own that the occurrence first shook my confidence in the Noble Duke opposite. On that occasion, however, I opposed the transfer of the elective franchise to Birmingham, because In my own heart I know, that if that proposition were adopted, it must necessarily lead to a large measure. For why, my Lords, give the elective franchise to Birmingham and to Manchester ? Because they have breonts great em. poriums of commerce, daily increasing in wealth and im portance. Because they are full of men of opulence, spirit, and intelligence. Because they have arrived almost at inns penal grandeur, and metropolitan magnificence. You would give them the elective franchise because they have thus Its eased. But the whole country hsa so increased—(low. hear !) It seems to me, therefore, to be impossible to resist the adoption of the la rge mauve. The NobM Earl rays that, on former occasions, when the wishes of the people on this subject have been resisted, everything' your lordships to consider it well, not now to touch ibose topics which will best be considered in the committee, but to recollect the scenes into which you are about to enter. It Y a great question you are shout to decide—a question in. wishing the peace and happiness of the empire. 1 beg leave to observe to your lordships, that there is a great difference between this bill and that for the relief of the Roman Ca tholics, to which it has been compared. (Hear.) You hare it now In your power to grant what will be considered a boon, on which the repose of the country depends, and which' s looted for with impatience. But in this hill you arc not bound in any manner. (Hear.) You have never rjected this, or any similar bill. Some of yoar Lord. ships may in the other House of Parliament have repressed an opinion on Reform • but as a body—as a House of hers—you are unboundand uncomproinised. Your Lords skips bare free liberty and power to decide as you think ilt,l sad you will come to the decision free from the influence et, Eau, free from all apprehension, free from all menace, free! even from that fear which a noble and generous roiled sometimes leads to rash and untimely acts—ftee, Lords, from the imputation of fear. (Cheers.) The Noble Duke stated at the beginning of the debates on the subject of Catholic Emiuselpoulon, that he did wet consider that be was addressing himself to your Laid. ships' tiers. lam not of a different opinion. It is said doe the great measure of Catholic Emancipation has not am& all that it promised. I admit that—but 1 wor di ti pat shed ask, what would have been now the state of had it not been passed into a law ? If the want of success is to be ascribed to the conduct of one wo e irt has had the power to oppose the buteridal w fdebe measure and delay its advantages, I mast say dist am is the creature of your Lordships hands; your obstinsey pve bin. influence, and created the power which he to impede the healing effect of a beneficial law. hat 1: should have had the power to raise obstacles to the peace and tranquillity of the country, is a circumstance I deeply and se imely lament. Whatever other motives may actuate your lordships, 1 implore you not to be guilty of the rashness of feu; I implore you not to be guilty of the greater rash mess of delay. (Hear.) I will remind your lordship of the address of the Roman consul to his council on going to war, when he planned that masterly march which overthrew the Carthaginian postal before be could unite himself to his ether forces—a march which, perhaps, changed the deed. ales of the world. The Roman army used not then to aesthete ; and assured them that thcir safety depended on • there - people were not good judges of men. But they must judge men by their coo- duct ; that was, by the measures they supported, and for that purpose he did not think a numerous body of elec. tors well qualified. (Hear, hear.) He approved oftle i popular election that existed, as it elevated the spirit and patriotism of the people. (Hear, hear.) He would not deprive ore man of his franch ise; but the present bill would deprive so many, as to make the people lose con.' fidruce in the Government that could so disregard their rights. Of all the boroughs in which bribery bad been practised, it most constantly prevailed in those which had three or four hundred electors. (Hear, bear.) He wished to know what rota of Parliament they were to have. They had heard of a Parliament called •• Parliaments lodoctum." He thought that would be applicable to many future Parlia. ment..—(Hear, hear.) How. were persons from the East Indies to be returned to Parliament? How were the Atter. ney and Solicitor-General and other lawyers to get in:o Par liament after the passing of the present Bill? How would they have the possibility of introducing their own eldest sons into Parliament ? It there was to be a House of Lords in this country, it was proper that they should have the oppor tunity of quallying themselves by the exercise of their talents aononge: the Members of the HMO: of Commons. For the last fifty years he could not recollect ten Lords who had taken a distinguished part in that House.; who had no: been trained in the House of Commons.—(Hear, hear.) lie did not offer this argument to the House *pleas they thought the people interested...4liter, hear.) There were many laws passel for the good of :he country lately, which woul.i rot pass in a reformed Parliament. Would a reformed Parliament have passed the Ca bolic &mantles awl Hill ? Ile would not change the present system of re presentation on covjecture. The Bill, if passed, might pre. vent some tuischiet ; but it might produce mischief which so human wistlotn could remedy--(hear. hear). It was a measure which nu Government ought to have produced. as it was alma equally dangerous to agree to it or to reject it— (hear. hear, hear). When the Government of the Noble Duke was destroyed, he hailed the coming into office of the Noble Earl. Not of the Mr. Grey of 1793, but of the bred Grey h lied I.eard with pleasure in that Howie—(hear, bear). The Noble Earl was placed in a situation in which he might have done great good. He was placed between two parties—a radical party and a party who objected to ail seferin ; though he believed that party was almost gone—(bear, hear, hear). He might have introduced a refurm that would have satis fied the reasonable part of both. " He might," said the noble lord, •• have mood between the dead and the living; and in my conscience I believe he could have stayed the plague " (Hear.) When the noble lord appeared in public life as a reformer, sir. Pitt warned him that he was uniting himakilf inch a party, of whom he would be tile first vie im. That party supported the present bill, became they thought it made the rest of their work easy. (Hear.) If a crisis ale suld arise, he was confident Government world do its duty, and hoped that party would be broken. (Hear.) But the noble lord said this bill must pass, or something etially efficient. This tosb . d all attempt at amendment. ( Hear .i Tier people called fur the bill, but who has caused the call? (Hear.) — The noble lord talked of bribery—was there ever such bribery in history as was offered to 600.000 persons by this bill? (Hear.) The people certainly called for the bill, and he was anxious to treat their petitions with respect • hut he roost consider the subject of their petitions ; and when it was one of the most awfully import*• t, requiring the moat eatensive knowledge of human nature, he might be permitted to doubt whether it was possible they could for a correct lie admitted that the 101. householders might be has ieturned to a peaceful channel. For a certain time that may be so, but not beyond it. Two of the great aere meets against the measure are, that Reform is merely seed as a weapon of party, end that the popular demand he le Is merely a temporary clamour that rprings up whosoever any general calamity occurs, end subsides when that calamity is at an end. Admitting both these arguments ter be well-founded, is it not desirable to deprive party of so 1 formidable a weapon ? And when your lordships see that, on' every occasion of public calamity and distress, from what ever cause arising, the people call for an alteration in the representation, and that the call is accompanied with a deep, rankling sense of injustice suffered, and of rights withheld, can you be insensible of the danger of prolonging such a state of things ? What constituted the great danger which attended the continuance of the system formerly pursued towards the Roman Catholics in Ireland ? That it gave op. portunities to those who, as has been well observed, • were always lying in waft to take advantage of the distresses of the arentry.' My Lords, she ful on dieser of reform extends, your l ordships do not k now how ; It penetrates, your lordships do not know deeply; It will break firth with irresistible violence when your lordships are lhomeing peurselves that the country is enjoying general repose and_ palm tranquillity. I have already obeerval that my noble friend who has just spoken stated ntanythlnp which would have been better stated in a committee. Why will he not allow the be tempi Into that committee ? I ant MINI my noble friend ad hiesetitereet Injustice when be said AM' his right hand had ss allt GOON ha cumin& _that he abseil be unable to adept any amlemn to the liM. UM**• air doe _saints ill en extensive one. It does away with the nomination beeensha i it takes away one ouraber frees she. repretantatlon of a nwieber of ether ; k aliseellet conuitsteet7 of berenshe—lt onestally quake. dons. I allow that these are pot &wipe. .I meet mom in tee on the Ileum ef Oemeees ibr May in them. They are of greet Impoithile•v. ,and demand dm. Bat efts so sea deliberate duration, when per lordship d diet the Hoses of Cos mos has persevered in 11 dews this . Bill, wM you at ones, and without gay ihinsden at all, reject it t WM you re rid of the s wrie gast aloldes, ens Proathe al I know not what,—.cin a to he introduced here after ? I Implore the House * before they come to such a decision. I imp's/terser le consider the clues- don as it now stands before you. I your lordships to ink yourselves why the measure was inteoduced by his Majesty's Ministers,—.why it has bees adopted by the other House of Parliament: I implore your lordships to ask yourselves If the present state of thins can tang cos.' dime ? When the noble awl said that it had been dedered that the bill must not be leeched or i that it must either be taken and registered by their or demure out intact, he misunderstood my noble Mend. My sehle friend's language by no means admits el such an inter pretation. There was nothing Is the slitentent of my noble friend to warrant the suppeddes that he was adverse to deliberation. But even if these week wish that *dry the noble earl in rejecting the menesee Winne diellheenden No The noble earl has talked of pepsin*, es do beds of the messure,and has contended that that Weis is GINIMMILIA. 011110.. lation, I admit, is made the rule of the diermischissmaist 1 but that it is the basis of out plan of espeemsation, or that it is our intention ever to make it the lode of the repre sentation of the country, I deny. The BM comes in to effect an evension of the present system of representation. and adapts it more coenpletely to the circumstances and situation of the country. The question is undoubtedly an . .. • - noble r _ _ opinion. e a... more intelligent than formerly, but what could they snow of the effect of the bill, but that they wets told It would make bread cheaper. (item.) %Vas it surprising that, under such delusion, their table should be coveted with petitions., (Hear, hear) But though they were told by the press that they must be cashiered, if they did not register the Acm e = House of Common's, yet he would say that House never desert its duty, but should act on its own mewls. Win—(heat, hear). They had been asked what could they bops for in oppo.log the second reading of the Bill? There was nor a body whose duty was more sacred than theirs; they wens second chamber, and if a measure was presorted to Meet, which was of an objectionable nature, it was their duty teem the House of Commons aid the country time to con alder of it before they gave it their sanction ; but as this measure had been presented to them, they were asked to cos. ' "• wit exceedingly large one, ion the h. es earl has argued it at West length with an ability and capacity such sake alwayadispLys, but be has argued it incompletely. It it Impassible, on a de bate on the second reading, when the general principle of re hem is the question--(No, no, from the Opposition side of tbe House, cheers from the Mi n isterial side, and repeated My me; from t he other side). Everybody who had spoken bel been anstious to make a declaration on that subject (dean), alld it was hardly possible to make any statement in favour WI the principle of Reform, which did not call ha an in dignant denial from those who, a few months Wham ed. witted the necessity of Reform. When that is the ewe, I put it to you? Lordships whether Reform is net he rowel principle of the Bill, and whether that is not now she resin or discussion (No,:no, from the Opposition) p Is it agawilio to the course of your Lordships' proceedings to diocese he principle of a Bill before going into a Commktee ; and if - . . a general for._-- at that tiine--4 bill he the representation bad been in consequence brought= by the noble earl, but be was not guided by the majodty the House of Cameos spinet that measure —no, a dioeiv" Lobo of Parliament was resolved, and urn that the pest. sent excited state of the country was -prebie. glancing at the countenance given to reform hi the speech, the table duke proceeded to argue, that the poront measure, whkh was now debated by the people, forward by the government established a new sperm d thinp I not a Magic interest in country or town, either la licodand, England, or Ireland, realigned without being at. tacked, if, indeed , two universities were excepted. He, should not aster into all the details of the noble mere weir I sant there were me or two points, hawser, which bomb not help alluding to, and which had not been touched urn by either of ' -4 4 noble hear,)— sign themselves to • new Constitution without knowing how It was to work. Had they began to improve at Old Sarum and Omura, and stopped shon when necessary N stop short, he would have gene with them ; but as the measure stood they must Arrays appeal to their constltuenti, end they would always be worsted. He thought the redoubts of Naiades was to aristocratic nisssure, se it would nowise emplownsut to of fortune, to the ezthaskro Of talent. The Noble = n tloeintled with declaring the. he considered the ay for reform te be a mere dimmer, which would aeon owe, sad be said be stela not, botrewilriniseh be had endeavoured - ....mbalintie ;b. -. yell ' . - his 4 Meads pear him t (lb". appvgie oFthst principle, - to "tio Inv s Commitsge ? Or are 1 tfieoudbo u t , eu t h e wiry fa do bai d dees a des of your Lordships prepared to say that yos elve of the Be- , this bill made neon he itanhimailiew shoe* 4 hem and will not go into a Committee (chests ? I appeal to the! he was penablek ea asea as rive bill pew% Am Noble Bari who spoteearly ht the debate , who introduced ' would be Ommittees Ertl all Met the Oismay to. a Bill in the beginning °Abe session, in which 4 took a arneL ' sepe e t a t ee d d en i m, by. mower do real s h eramsr a datable interest, but which I taut say was of very telling the House of Commas be Menially chweigh He important* as compared to this bill, sod wu as inesneistene o bje cte d th e to t h e aanannm imam the Inn d a d g ams b y as a bin could well be, and the Noble Logd resold your it weekd be very . Cerfilliwo at Lordoldps to allow him to go into a Csouminge, merely en leaseholders la tott i s, ll64 4lZ e rf i ti i r aspen* sighsa. account of the excellency of the object he had in view. If maid vote foe nannty members , an d a b a l an d e d j a r ian ait your lordships object to the petaclpls el Radreat,:you will not would thereby be mere ands the Indenter of let yoasob— He believed that Woad, ander the pima gum% had bete the bat 'named country , Is doe trail Ike die bat 11111 year. (Hear) A Nam or Cooptions einsinesi as et resent mews ratalled, wealdne halblog dee thin s assembly, chosen by lameseralds code is wakes it WIN, • declared - aerdsomirioo. Hs . It Radial Rim meant k was net a mosses as the praik thear)t so a 'bola, it must loovitabl s J u. to 111111101 fain, vote by ballot, and universal 1111 SOON Of Calmness was answerable to the country for its akin IMO a if liseeey could be voted without Its ...ihag re. wasswary, then, was it, that its members should be with propriety and discretion. (Hear.) Under the in. Eseses of popular clamour, the Minister for Ireland had away been obliged to ab andon one measure (the Arms, Ivied, Bill); •and under a representation formed in nealiof dte present measure, such instances would es nt q uest occurrence. The Noble Duke concluded si ntrt ia t l an h d le the beli ef that country theer safe e ty sod by e of the tamiewe which should have his opposition. (Hear, hear.) Viscount MELBOURNE said a few words acrOss the table in explanation. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented himself amidst loud calls of adjourn. The Noble Marquis said he was willing to agree to an adjournment of the debate, or to p on. as their Lordships might be pleased to decide. Bad GREY immediately rose. and put the question it adjournment, which was carried, and their Lordabipo,ad. jounted accordingly at a quarter.past one o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Dlr. CAMPBELL brought in a bill to *WWII' Phi regarding lines sad recoveries (pursuant to do 40.111•11+ dation of the Law Contos _ issiuners_ ) and to sebsdtate sipb arat process instead thereef.—Rend a . time, and ordereecto be read a second time the 11th October. PUPS RIMOINITRATEIN SIL L. Mr. SANDFORD presented a petition from Somerset. shire against the Deeds General Registration Bill. He con sidered that the petition deserved the most serious attention of the House. Mr. STRICKLAND expressed the hope that the Honourable Member would not press forward this session his Deeds Registration Bill : it was an immense job. Mr. CAMPBELL observed that the proceedings or non proceeding with the Bill, must depend on the length of the session. If a certain event took place elsewhere, which God forbid, there might be a tolerably speedy termination of the session. In that ease, the Bill would of course fall to the ground. Lord MORPETH said, that it was desired by York. shire, that it should be exempted from the operation of this Bill ; because it bad already a Deeds Registry. Mr. CA MPBRLL observed, that if there were jobs, he had nothing to do with it: it has little existing system of registration ; it required avowedly amendment. Mr O'CONNELL declared that this measure would be one of great benefit. It would prevent many a pang with those who might otherwise take notions of defective tides; and it certainly might alter the jobbing of those whose titles would not bear the strictest examination.—Petition to lie on the table. Mr. CROKE& said no one could have had any thing to do with real property without knowing the urgency of such a bill as dais. It was important that tide should be se cure : and if this measure were adopted, the honourable and learned gentleman would have achieved what others had beep two hundred years vainly endeavouring to ac complish. Mr. F. BARING brought np the Report of the Can mitts, on malt drawbacks.—Ordered to Be as the table and be Mr. Vitt ATT A N moved that there be laid before the house a copy of the memorial of James Newlan and others, dated Aug. 11, to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, re= the conduct of LUptain Graham and the Rev. W. two of the county of Wexford, for declining to receive and grant the required information on the charge of burning the boom of the Newtownbarry yeoman; toge ther with his Excellency's reply. Also for copies of any further communication received by the Irish Government relating S.einsto....4grew.d _ desadeftleg his Plea Wad Waifs mad that --.l* weld be ..Formal /VANS aid be was fully pomaded that there 119 delay—lie etweasest sow% food Wool dolor". was no alternative between reform and civil war In this enserarisen orrieed•foosreall. (Cheers.) country. The object of the motion of which be hod given Ike Duke of WELLINGTON rose and after a few name was to thee the p eo p le t h at m ili tar y a mmo. h a l ISCltobservations remarked, that the able speech of . ben taken by die late - in November last l a e r Liend (Lord Harvowby, we presumed) bad not ! to net s p inet t h e ma th, that they might new be lemma at all affected by the arguments of the Noble lard • p repare d to assist the ldi vernega n If n eor may in the Hiklbourne.) With that Noble Lard, in hie acknowledg- I p reservat i on o f t h e oda ln November last tweet s he agreed', that the measure was • these Mendel ewe* what the then Gewannemt m a de their celebrated de. It was to trample down boroughs, divest corporations, I a erat i on ede ma Ed am , th e y withaly apprehended every thing came within its operation—there was nothing m a g m a* , oa t h e p a rt of the powth e and collected a hat what was to be altered by the measure; and that Noble 1 l ards m ilit ar y i ota in sod DM she meuspelia, and made Lord bad told them that they ought not to reject it frees a ; preparations at the Tower ter Him or attack. No Ommemittee ; yet they had been told it must be followed by' one could suppose that these pigemmileas were made for the oiler measures to make Government practicable. The No. defence of the matt beloved mama that ever sat on the hie Duke said be bed eft= remarked k ass custom Briti s h throw-41, g w e re evidently intended for the pro with the Noble Earl who had introduced the Dill, when mam a o f an an d. re r oan ed e l e t r y. Th e boo. gentleman be had a 1.10111111 to brig forward, that he oboes to criticise move d. Th at an a dd ress b e orega n o ' to his Majesty fo r we the hatileelle and thwidethedathethesather than to explain copies of papers, tending to show an Intention of instance. his Na measure; sod each Wes ho the case on the pre- denary movements en the gth of November last, and of OWN evadag. be Noble led bad Indulged in allegations o rders e ve n to oaks any attack o n th e list t a ° for Reform was bow ewied to whet he (the Mr M. PARNELL said the paint= had laid no Doke of Wellington) bad expressed when he had occasion to grounds f o r hi s maim He had male inquiry in the proper address the House of Lards a year ego; but be weld beg ismer ' and found that nothing more bed bees done than to leave to remind the Noble Earl, that when that expreseiss have t h e tr oo p. in mo u l age to await the civil power if no. was weed to which se mach Anima hod been made, he (the c o ggary, (H em .) Duke of Wellington) was then the ENO Idiethaeort sad it ggh HUNT' g ad he believed he estahl d ive the oath wee not :be custom fora King's &Mister to ebonies the In. earth al th e jar -Was he duping resamting inemase. Mitations of the woody. He would real to the Noble damp eagne th ome at the thee be theetimeg." He had terra recollection weeds which he himself hod used la the hoes in she h a w o f p ro ng _ gahllcmak. at the month of &broth% 1517, sad whisk he might omoreme I at Hothatle, fee th e purge of Partheemeary Ile.. with his own 7th skew Noble Dab__ pie- e- form, and that dam there wen lor SW Maas who sanded to guns a speak et Sad Grey's la wide" he couli not get room, sod they seek two or thee id.oelessed Mml detemid that he Ind amalliiedi the Howe el Conine gags, with whir& they marched over Illecitelimmdaidgo. la lit the hem hadlailV she world be met the wasenedi i w h ere the wog met by 49 ea bop"— wasb s s r w h oa Wise, and to pima privilege sad Mendes ed She I they were dbpersed , and their gags taken Name tray; sad =• (Earl Osef. few aka of bows *MO ; that, he was sour / dent, was all the lasurrecties Hot bedlam the noble earl ealweesteas a twelweawah adds • place and that woe was contemplated. He was embed ha eight at lent to Itteee etweeedP lies the aside *the, 1 his Majesty might have walked from St. James's to Gan. mid, en the occasion• whildhlad moths WO alleild Si, that hall without the least interruption; but be had no leak be approved of the olaillitedell ei =hea IPlaillibinti said , she Duke of Wellington would have been hissed sad homed U that he had AO isnot a mosithith Al &be for his anti-Reform deciazatiou. could not have invented a better, hmensh beellor allow- Sir R. PEEL said, preparatiees had been made es is awe for the imperfections to the lainegthe of Ms, . occasion not to act s pina the people, but to somata, qe would have hod one the sam e whilst 1/ I •PestY eivU power. He thee& It was possible foe s new wk. was to PrePeederate- It wee as hltelther of at Crewe chkeees peruse n tacks a disturbance, in which many 1 that he had said that he would resist an reform, sodas a mi. b ees m um be Mot. sister of the Crown had be said that no reform was saes. ho jr. HAM:mu/mg h o p e d th e thirst of the mo d es eery. It had often heat repeated, that it was owing to his ' was sot t o egete ey a not i on to th e troops that t h ey m i d g e speech in which he used theme expression, that the cry for b e celled ea to act against the people. He was theibleme reform had now prtvaikd so WOWS • bat be denied the elk. • t h e - me w o b ey t h e ame n ta - d ota l or d ers of t h e lea , pdon—the excitement on that Weed lea year had boon ' est i" • w o occasioned by the French revolution. It aspresed, that i cm. 'vim, nil, t h e object of his motion was awsawad ewe day hetere the Issuing of the French thenees, ___ i against the •of disappoinunest, at the rumen that his Majesty had dissolved Parnaiba* le & a rch mew seenseet of aid to peewee peace the throne , and in the erections th at followed the lam: The mo n s , was wed. ben wen :hen bound to pledge themselves to Parliamentary Itsf_Olut: i` ~Reform. 11, e ”reiteated again that. it was _,the rev°llldolla of Lord ALTROEP smt“d thee the Moats resolve itself Free" ad Deleon th at had ealestwwwl the a 7 into a Committer on the Reheat of Parliament Scotland for reform in E ngland. The Noble Duke then at. r es. led" to the as pe rsions that had been twat on his name General PALMER mid, that ft the proem was his lest en account o the affair that took place in last No. epremnity of w ai n spee she ... aim or wean, umber, when the royal visit to the city of Loath* was pre. be hoped to be allowed to stem we opinion of the a vented, but he could assure the house that be had now la his measure.measure.gge b a g ewe held cite esei e „ pisiee the r e ll a. al pessaries documents to rove that their interference as that • lots womb, of eatem. and se the fa =wet of dee........1 time was not without foundation. (Hear, bear.) The aside oesseve. f ie dd e iiia is suss s y piths is that heseer"--, and duke then proceeded to state, that it was rot a question of le eft that b e d b eet ,ig . pima In sad eat s g gt, melee , the Parliamentary reform, which caused the napalm of the mow u g ha os , he - Wdeutaimew wan. i t TiT it u is . la" ministry , al he was re") to admit that then w id **dot MIA Mt sr* ft ehod - imb bill, bat also 1 ——- • - • -- ampoleas is - acceptiej allee Ist it Otitis - purpose + Oho the heavy bat saissaded camps al disk oppeasats. emilhess the dale be L se.. . iess Pailemeat, yews show. there had boss ao lasedea beim 1S lavelviesy the &pity et the Crows, the *sear sf Pediaawat, se the is sweet of the people, who.) his ileasmaide triads the Whip had as* wady den their dutyo whibt ell that had waded se degrade the Crows sad Per llaswat la she eyes of she pephr, sad to brims the esaatry to its palm mese, had %Ps ohs sok at et thole enemata. As se vim had bees 'lid the oohs* ay of the people, he nut beg to be ex. ilia Oat *Meg *ore wee as awe seam is the ay than la se pees to is it the.. awl be a skimming it, h should be called the gamer, t fee es history said at Rome, it wee that which wed the aphids so future hasty world lay of it • this we ery •_ . . Was which; ie canyiejg =ft saved the eseete. taker, best.) ter elm WA hese the oasis et the ay ? Melia the •aims be, the ay vas Ist sheet perlisessess said the bast. de had always bees a Mead se the belies, whims immedseieg ebo Essisky et aka eillesams eh, were past Is; mei is &lama se ilie=: he biped*, pram bill prevent its hes is Ids gobs these eseld be as seal facia of without is. The pease; (Wm esseiers, vbs. she U. Leal, else bed se well deserved the beams el doe mew. shim., setelisd so she Hesse, pas bin aQ the delight mussed by other hen. members, but without the 'net unpin, being not &Junius than he had expected from the Ministers ; and which to have been surprised won to have doubted their honesty, firmness, commo n sees, and the sincerity of their declarations on vio l i n.: into ogee ; for to have stepped short of what th e y h ad done would base been only a half measure, that neither could have satisfied the people, nor have effetei any real benefit for the country ; whilst the p re . eau bill had already paved the way for all the good to follow It, by the confidence it had m, spired throughout the country in ministers, who had sun. deed all their unconstitutional power, looking solely to r their support to the good opinion of the people. As to all the charges brought spline them, be thought the two nobic lords, the mover of the bill, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who, between theist, had conducted it through. out, had in all their speeches fully acquitted ministers of every unworthy motive ; whilst all the defects of the sass. sure were solely to be ascribed to the necessity, that ear n , pelted them in framiog it to preserve as much as possibk that ancient form of the representatka which contained all the anomaly, inconsistency, and injustice their oppon e n ts I had so m uc h complained of. The main object of their bill was a roil representation of the ppre people; sod, considering the difficulty of the task in prevailing on so many different reformers in that long unreformed house to consent to so strong a measure, it had been no less to his surprise that satisfaction to see it carried through the committee by such large majorities. Lewd JOHN RUSSELL said It bad been asserted is another place that be had said the measure was not intended to be a final measure. What be said was that if the mea sure did not work well for the people it could not be finri, but if, as be hoped and believed, k should mock well for the people, then be was confident the pro would receive it with eontenunenr, sod rest a but he never did re. linguist) his exportation that the measure would give antis. faction...(uer, hear) Sir JOHN WALSH thought ropmentatien ought to be even to the Scotch Universities, sod woad move in the Committee that one representative should be given to the Four Universities of Scotland conjointly. Sir G. CLERK said, before going into committee, he mart object to any mode of appeal from the dedsion ti the sheriffs, unless to one of the Supreme Courts; and he also objected (sae part of the disuse introduced, that made their decision to be appealed to a number of persons composed of barristers et advocates. He had beard it miaowed that it was his Majesty's Ministers' Wend= to revise the Scotch law, and to introduce a new court in Scotland to supersede the Sheriff's Court ; and if so, they could not have devisal a means more likely to degrade sheriffs than Inserting this clause. He was sure that no clause in the bill would excite more dissatisfaction in Scotland. The Chancellor of the EXCHEQUER, in explanation, said that the clause complained of only applied to the first registration. He was impressed with the respectability and utility of the sheriffs of Scotland tb &skim' jurisdictions, and said it was far from the intention of the government to degrade them. Sir WM. RAE was not satisfied with the explanation, ankinsisted that to appeal from the decision of the sheriff in the manner laid down was a degradation. He complained that the making up of the lista should, under any circum. stances, be thrown on thei alseriffs; be said that duty ought to be performed by some e th er public officer. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER declined answering several questions that were put to him on the Bill, because he said they must come under their considera tion in the Committee, and he considered the debate a waste of time. Sir C. WETHERELL, In a long speech, renewed the argument on the degradation of the Sherif& ; and the provision et that clause which prevented Judges of the Court of Session from voting, while Judges ef England were allowed to vote. In the coarse if hi speech he singled out the Honourable Member for "Ippon, who he said had interrupted him. Mr. WEY LA ND replied in a Immenewe Main, and concluded wit► saying, that he awned the dame. Mr. GI LLAN Mended the prehisee at the clause re lating to the &elk es it was mom es agyly entl to the first registration. WM aged se *Ws being prevented from voting, he thought they wadi orailee it a great boon. After some eimemithwe hen Mr. GILLON, Mr. GRANT, and whoa, The house went hue cemmittse. Sir OROROX CLERIC mused that considered= of the seventh dam of the bill be ple4med, on the ground that If it Wed te, it wooM predate say possibility of moving mew motion for moodioese. notices of width stood is die perm The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wee agree. able to acquiesce to the suggestion. It was than moved and carried, that the consideration of tie womb dense be postponed till the conclosite. On the dem being read. Mr. OILLON moved several amendments. is that the mom of the boroughs of Peebles sad Selkirk should be tbrowsioto the county. Sir GEORGE HAY stated many objectless to the clause, and to the Hill in generaL He complained that the number of Members for Scotland should have been re stricted to so mall a number. lie, however, said that the Hill was a boon to finsland. ;nd be was grate ful to the Noble Lord for the Bid, and he was bound to say that he believed the Learned Lord Advocate was a Impaled and devoted Mend to Scotland. He regretted to know that the Learned Lord was absent tbreogh =tepee!. Lion. The boo. baronet concluded with saying that If the Noble Lord would consent to withdraw the claim be would esteem it a personal favour; if not he would divide the House on it. _ _ The CIiANCEI4•OR of the EXCHNITER replied, and said that after ml.ute investigation be considered it most advisable to asp the clause. Sir G. CLEM set peva the ameadmatt. Mr. ICENNIDT acre d that if the people of Selkirk sod Peebles were not dawn bee the seunties, they would be nomination anodes. As Hon. M 113131111, whose new we mold not learn, ollMeW the MIMI maim The CHANOILLOIL et the 110111144111111 Mr. C. F 120171111011 swgresal th e tomahawk, wi sheathe the panel* shed' "OM to the whit that the war/ estriematies *sold be audieed Is the couaties ad the base* esteseasedua to the boroughs. Mr. ?MINGLE at reed die dome. After a few wade has Sle G. Mossy, Mr J. Mackin tosh Mr. C. Bros, Mr. Dundee, Lard Altheep, Mr.GUloc, Mr. C. Ferguson, and Sir G. Oak, the committee divided— Far the clause . . 133 Against . . . Mt Majoeity fas Mildews . 73 Clime three, i j ment l eradng the easatime totems swam. endy or_ elaty, baths pat. Sir em G. MUILIAY inn es mere that ad mistime with more this ISSINE Mikes* should retain me members. The prepaid slides to the swabs, et amber Is scot. hind was not ~edema to he banns ha rethwes sod pi palatine seaweed ft Eighth' dies the salon. At the time of theales the seenthe en. damdami was only OSA& that of ZVI" !AWL_ At peewit the revenue of &pad was Onlyie s tlOßOlLThibtalhit of Swabia sae 4,134, 000 L The et Seeding air base a thamMerahly ram to that of Ispesd, then at *slime of the Union. do s et Sestina wee sow ß m an e d to Sesdand. A dose beemiglontoraing eta& MM . bows being All the ntheinseihme White Son land belonged ft sense i he dienght, *mhos an additira should be wads to the owentp zepremmadves, ID order to kap ap the balsam between dm ageleahural and onaufac• siring hiewesta. He staved that Armies. Ayr, Edinburgh. F e - Perter, Lanark, Perth, and Ilentrwer :mum two mem. Leal A LTHORP asetended, that at the *Moo, femur ad perdition trees net takes Imo osnelderatios is the al. s tr es ttf=eatativn to anudasd ales. believed the sin auaMs of eluxoes than the; sienna eenadre in England. He pm the sew mashers to the towns, bosun des tows repletion and wealth had m• aimed much aces than the impaled= and maids of the counties. Sir G. CLERIC and Mr. DUNDAS Dummied, sod Mr..l. CAMPBELL append*. ethemithent. Mr. GILLON said. Ilkodeol withal km an amelioration hi the quality ot her terasentativse, not ter an augmentation in their 'maim Ms. CROW asked whether Inaorkeldrs, with 24001) inhabitants, was to have mily one member, while Cumber. Lad. with ISSAS nee w have her tereswitatita ? tit was singelsed to ems desedlthen see pilert is unjust a clause. He sapped the lesened bi radethan ( Mr. Caingheil) hel d brier ea be side et the . Mr. CAMPBELL wield sell the right km than ha buM so brit It was the members ter Nuts homes like dm dein has. seat. who bad a bidet, a chest, ad s he. Mr. eirOiEft lid oily spokes is jest, for he did nit I •