Star. — London, England, 1808-06-14 00:00:00

F.I2LI4MENTARr PROCEEDIYGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE 13. Mr. lons Cut !ten was again heard at some length in behalf -he Appellants In the Rot hurgh Appeal Cause.—The further pr,sceedirp were appointed for Wednesday next. Lord HAWKFSBURY presented a Message from his Ma • i ssty, similar to that presented by the Chancellor of the Excite ..r in the House of Consons, being the annual Message for a "oz.e of Credit, ma& by Parliament towards the close of I every Secdon, which, upon the motion of his Lordship, was or- • tc:ed to be taken into consideration to-morrow, and their Lord s'aips summoned thereon. His Lordship renewed his motion of Saturday, for the second of the Local Militia Bill on Wednesday nest, and their Lordships being summoned thereon. His Lordship also appointed the second resding of the Irish a.u.k Loan Bill cis this day se'nnight. MR. PALMER'S CLAIM. Lord HAWKESBURY again rose, and, pursuant to notice, :roved that a Committee be appointed to inquire into and exa liine the contract entered into between Mr. Palmer and Govern ..tent, respecting the manavrnc.nt of the General Post Office ; iso to inquire into the cause of that Gentleman's dismission from the office of Comptroller-Gereral to his Majesty's General Pun (trice, which was agreed to rem. rex. SICILIAN SUBSIDY. - Lord HAWKESBURY having previously moved *he order of the day for taking into consideration his \l.tiesty's Message respecting the Treaty of Subsidy old Alliance with the King of Sicily, observed, that it was not his intention to take up many minutes of heir Lordships' time upon this subject, such. Treaty ~ n d Alliance having met the approbation of several .rf his Majesty's preceding Administrations as well as the present. He trusted therefore the House would tgree with him upon the necessity of the measure, and the Vote of Thanks which it was his intention to nipve for his Majesty's most gracious communication ft had been the intention of his Majesty's Govern ment to have introduced further stipulations into this 'Treaty, but under the circumstances which it was not now necessary to explain, the present Treaty was entered into. His Lordship concluded by moving, " That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, ex l i - pressive of the Thanks of that House, for his most gracious corn munieation ; and assuring his Majesty of the concurrence of their Lordships in furthering his Majesty's engagements," Ste. Lord HOLLAND said, he did not rise to express any disapprobation of the Treaty entered into by his Majesty with the King of Sicily • for under all the existing circumstances, he perfectly approved of it. He wished, however, that the stipulations had gone further with respect to Sicily, who had not hitherto strictly adhered to the letter of the Treaty, by not expending 15s. per annum on the very impor. tant fortress of Milazzo, out of a subsidy of 500,0001. He admitted, that the stipulations of the present Treaty might rest upon grounds which it might not be proper to lay before the House. It had been his ordship's intention, on coming down to the House, to have entered more at large upon this subject ; but as he understood he should have another opportunity, e merely rtne to declare his approbation of the main object of the Treaty.—The Motion was agreed to. After some further routine business, the Flume adjourned un til To-morrow. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The JUDGE ADVOCATE obtained leave to bring In a BM to amend so much of the 47th of the King, as related to prise!. The Oyster Fishery Bill was read the second tinW . , and coin nu tted for to-morrow. Mr. HUSKISSON obtained leave to bring in a Bill for Ware housing private Goods. _ - PILOT'S ALL. On the Motion of Mr. ROSE, the Cinque Port Pilots' Bill was recommitted. Oa the motion of the same Right Hon. Gentleman, for vesting Pi the power of the Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports the ap pointment of sixty additional pilots for Dover and the isle of flatlet, Mr. JACKSON opposed it, on the ground that it mast render Dover continually subservient to the influence of Go►ernment, by placing in the hands of the Warden of the Cinque Ports the abso lute command of the election there for Members to serve in Par liament. Mr. ROSE contended that the Elll had no view whatever to pelitiad influence, but was called for solely by necessity, for the cnrnmercial security of the cmmtry, and the =Coy of shipping, ft e tit a. well as British, visiting the port of 'London ; there hav ing oeen no less than twenty-four nserchantmcn lost on that coast within the last year, from the want of pilots, and great losses otherwi‘e sustained. Mr. Alderman CURTIS argued for the necessity of the Bill, on tht part of the mercantile interest of the City of London. After some discussion, the Gallery was clealtd, cid the Com mittee divided, when the Clatise was carried in the aOnnative. ROYAL. M ESS AO R. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER delivered to the House a Message from his Majesty, the same as usual at the close of every Session, for the accustomed Vote of Credit toward the incidental exceedings of the year in the defence of the country. —Referred to the Committee of Supply. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY, hir. DIINDAS moved, That the House do go him a Conlon:we of Supply, to whom should be re- I ferred the Report of t 1: Comnii.tee of the East India ipnr.y." pc.n this tuctir,n twiny put from the Chair, .ord FOLKESTONE rose, and objected to the ,k,n- leaving the Chair, as he thought the Report .ded to was perfectly unsatisfactory, and contained ; ittle information, that it would he quite improper lie House to so into its consideration. On a for- ; occasi , ,a, an objection had been stated to tbo • finer in which that Committee had been formed, be still looked ripcn that objection as being justi by the Report now upon the table. There were, is cpinion, various facts, of which the House I ht to be in possession, before they proceeded to any great sum of money to the East India! ::pan. Ir. IiUNDAS answered by observing, that if the )le Lord had waited till he had hoard his motion rive to that Company, his objection would most .•nahly have been rendered unnecessary. Mr. CREEVEY supported *objection of Lord lkestone. '.Tpon the question being put, the House went into . Committee. Mr. DU NpAs then stated, that it would be untie sary for him to say :nuch, as the Report contained ,st of the facts that were necessary to be detailed. nue misunderstanding had arisen between the Ike- Intents of the Company and the Public, which r.ferred to the Committee appointed upon East lia. Affairs, who had thought it necessary to adhere the principles laid down by the former Committee. i - rst article charged upon the Company was the pence of prisoners Of war conveyed by his Majesty's ips i 9 immediately upon capture ? which ne cessarily became chargeable upon. the public ; and the next was the expence of remitting to India such sums of money as had been paid by the Company to the public in liquidation of the balance owing to them. A question had been stated, as to whether the public should be bound to pay in India the money so burrowed, or to the Company in this cottntry, and disputes had arisen as to the rate of interest to be al lowed. It had been, however, settled, by the Report of the Committee, that not only the expence of the remittance of bullion to India, but the usual interest of that place where it was originally borrowed, should be paid. Upon these grounds he did not feel himself justified in calling upon Parliament to make any loan to the Company farther than tha; which had been formerly stated to be actually ascertained to be due. Mr. Dundas then concluded with moving— nut it is the opinion of this Committee, that a mm not ex ceeding 1,500,000. be granted to big Majesty, to enable him to pay the East India Company the caramel; incurred by them for the public service." Lord FOLKESTONE still persisted in his former objection, that there was not sufficient information before the House, to enable it to judge of the pro priety of such a grant. He accordingly moved, as an amendment to the motion— " That instead of the sum mentioned in the, motion, the sum of :A. be inserted." Mr. CREEVEY objected to the motion, upon the ground of the charges made out by the Company against the public not being properly ascertained.— In none of their . formn statements had they ever made out a charge for the transmission of bullion to India Mr. TIERNEY spoke in favour of the Resolution. Although the Committee appointed to inquire into their affairs were not vested with the authority of ar bitrators, yet they had been appointed to ascertain the amount of the debt due upon either side. The result of their inquiry was, that R 2,300,000 were found due by the Public to the Company, part of which having already been paid, this vote was only fcr an acknowledged balance, joined to some fur ther subsequent claims. The point at isst'e, there. fore, between him and the Noble Lord, was relative to the rate (..f interest and the mo d e of transmitting payment of the debt due by the public to India. As to this, he had no doubt of the charge made by the Company being perfectly fair and reasonable, and that if their accounts had been submitted to a Master in Chancery, the amount of their claim upon the pub lic would have been nearly four millions, instead of the sum at which it had been charged in the Report. He could not really see any just grounds for objecting to the liquidation of the debt as now charged, as it was strictly due to the public. If the Noble Lord was determined to persist in objecting to any part of that debt, he should at least allow, even in his amendment, that which he might look upon as unobjectionable. Lord FOLKSTONE stated, that the principle upon which he had proposed a grant of five pounds, was merely for form sake, as he objected to the voting - of any sum whatever upon the Report in its present imperfect state. He did not object to the payiug of Indian interest so much as he did to the expense which was charged for carrying out bullion to India. If m• - ney -were borrowed in Scotland, or any other place whatever, by a person resident in this country, the trouble and expense of carrying it back was never charged. SirdOHNANSTRUTHER said, he most heartily concurred in the resolution which had been submitted to the Committee, as it appeared to him it was fair and reasonable the Company should receive payment of the money in the same place and in the same man ner in which it had been borrowed. The public must be paying interest for that money, until such time as it was sent out to India, and therefore he thought there could be no question as to who should bear the loss. It was undoubtedly the public who had been benefited by the advances which had been made, and he could not help thinking the Conipany would have done better, had they sought their payment by bills drawn upon India at the usual rate of exchange ; for it was undoubtedly the cheapest way for the pub lic to send out the bullion. By the report of the Com mittee, 'it appeared that there were additional claims of 4470,000 against the public, the p4ment of which had been suspended, on account of the objections against them, every one el which was substantiated by docuMents coming from the Advocate General's Office, shewing they were still unaudited. Mr. WILVERFORCE and Lord MORPETH severally stated their sentiments in favour of the origi nal resolution, and Lord Folkestone's amendment was negatived without a division; as also were se veral other limitations df the original sum, which he afterwards proposed in the shape of amendments. The orginal Resolution was then put and agreed to. Cowl 1,4 Lc Spca! nil id co lit for tl: mer Iran! ;Ind 1 fled in hi , 0ni , 31 vote • Con: No1)1 rcl . l z poi) Folk • the I cess: MOS Son Four wer• Tndi to tl The exlx SICILIAN SUBSIDY. The CHANCELLOR of the - EXCHEQUER next proposed to the Committee, in pursuance of his Majesty's Message, the following Re i lotion " That the sum of :100,COOL be granted to his Majesty, to ena- He him to make good the engsgemts3ts which he has entered into with his Sicilian Majesty.~ Mr. WHITBREAD rose for the purpose of put ting some questions relative to the Treaty by Which this grant was due. The questions which the Hon. Gentleman put related to the length of time that had elaysed before the conclusion of the Treaty ; the force and ammunition which was to be kept up for the de fence of the island ' • and also, why two fortresses only were to he retained by us, while the fortress of Melazzo should also have been in our possession, in order more leffectually to secure its defence. Mr. CANNING, in answer to the first question, relative to the time when this arrangemen4 was made, ,stated, that it originally took place at the commence : ment of the war petween ;he Bing of the Two Sici ; lies and France. Mr. ELLIOT stated objections as to the policy of British troops being under the command of a Russian General, while, at the same time, the overthrow of the Austrian arms enabled the French to pour their whole force into Italy, by which the Neapolitan Go vernment was involved more immediately m war. — Although it was evident that the Xing of Naples and Sicily etluld not maintain such a force as was neces r "sarrfor its defence, yet, inasmuch as the ohligations of this country were (hereby rendered more clear and its interests more precise, in the same proportion it he r came more inexpedient for us to assist him in his then predicament, as it was doubtful whether he sboulu be ender a necessity of joining the cause of France, or look to Great Britain for assistance. It was not till the pot& of December, 1805, when the U King of ilaples adopted his resolution -of retiring drawn between the respective merits of the inju m i n ,. to Sicily, and he then had positive assurances of assis- habitant. Females, he thought, should be a s atnpl ,.. tance from the then Government, of a subsidy, to compensated as others, and any distinction atternpl e l the -amount of 25,0001. a month, or 800,0001. a-year, to be drawn, must inevitably be unjust to some p ar . upon the recommencement of hostilities on the part of ticular persons. The sum of 50,0001. the one.fourth France. Although this agreement was arranged of their losses, was the utmost, he thought, the H oax upon -these principles ; yet, owing to the state of the conid vote, with due regard to the state of this country. Administration of the last weeks of 1805, and the be- Mr. PONSONBY did not conceive the intender{ ginning of 1806, no steps could be taken towards ad- distribution, by being voted without any distinctica, jesting the other measures, in regard to the force CO be would best answer the ends expected to be ac an n. supplied. There was, however, no neglect of public plished by the mover of the grant . The re were two duty, owing to the change of Administration, which descriptions of persons i . whom t was intended to Tema. took place in 1806 ; fbrvery soonafter, application was nerate—the meritorious in the defence of th e i s l an d , made by the Sicilian Minister here, as to carrying this and those who had been reduced to indigence by th e measure into effect • assurances were given, that as 1 calamities of war. The present mode of distribution soon as possible a Minister should be sent to Sicily,) was not calculated to effect either, as it made no dif. in order to reduce it into a form of a regular agree- I fereisce whatever between those who might have, by ment. Nothing could be done during the Secretary- ! a comparatively small loss, been reduced to beg gary , ship of Mr. Fox ; but at the same time payments - whilst many, who had experienced consichrably were made through the hands of our Minister, greater losses, stood in no need of remuneration, and through General Fox, subject to their controul. The original motion • then passed for th e grant of —Mr. Drummond was at the same time dispatched 1 the smaller sum. to Palermo, but had not succeeded in reducing it into i The following sums were then granted : For defraying the raptness incurred by Commitsione n a proper form, before the dissolution of Par li ament, ; for Military lngoiry and another change of a d m i n ist r ati o n had taken 1 . Tu certain Commissioners for di,soharging stuns otracocy , It tuts not returned until the month of July . and • • place. 4 inspect - mg accounts, relative to car setticzarots l ori r i e urst last year, and when it did come, it ap- } on the Continent of AMlTint ...... ......... .... ... wa that Mr. Drummond, either from misconcep- ! Tor ,compensati n g the Corranissioners awai nte d * to i,.' ! :r ape et and conduct the Britich . Mustiam ...... tion. or from some other cause, had admitted' some i stone. or , of the l e 4th in en . ury d 15th s of Jan. IEOB ned from tal'hetheTi°l2l7.rl stipulations which were not thought right his Majesty should agree to. It could not thorefore be laid before ! b at= s o wa i n o f Margate . ....... ... I Parliament, so that the negotiation was renewed, and Tor knpforlug the harboor of Holyhead the treaty now before the House was what had been , The question being put on this sum, the result. As to the other kind of assistance to be Mr. SHERIDAN said, he was surprised to hear of afforded, it was judged most prudent that Mr. . such a vote, especially when there had been of l ate Drummond should act with caution till matters were years discovered a much better harbour ; b ut h e otherwise fuu je al lan ted. Next, as to the fortress the f ear ed that th e reason this had not bee n b roug h t i nto Honourable had alluded to, he believed general use, in our commimication with Ireland, was it was already in the hands of the British ; and the owing to the strong interest Anti influence which had lat'ninvin of force deemed sufficient for the defence of been excited in fayour of the 'Holyhead Captains. Sicily amounted to 10,000 men ; but this country most &whom were settlerlin houses at Holyhead, and had it in its power to send more if it thought neces- had used all their exertion to prevent the discove r y o f . sary. In paint of fact, there was now in Sicily a thi s harbour being generally known. much larger force than was required. ' I Sir aiRTHUR WELLk:SI,.EY thought the har- Lord HENRY . PETTY expressecthis satisfaction Ism of Holyhead the best in Wales. The other al. at the answers which had been given by the Right ludel to he had heard a very different description of; Hon. Gentleman, as it appeared, that every exertion and was therefore in hopes that the House would had been used to defend ghat important island.— ' have no objection to rep* the works of Holyhead, While he thought it was prudent to observe the most ' for which there existed a direct necessity. In this watchful jealousy upon such occasions, yet he could opinion he seas supported by Mr. HERBERT. not help observing it might have been prudent to 1 Mr. PARNELL thought it Angular such an ap. have reserved some further power in the Treaty, to plication should be made before those estimates and enable us to put Sicily in the utmost possible state of , papers he had long since applied for on this subject defence. ! should be produced. Mr. WHITBREAD also expressed himself satis- Mr. FOSTER objected to the situation of the new lied with the answers given to his observations ; yet . harbour, as being several miles to the south cf the he should like to know how the money already so be- Head, which he feared would render it frequently stowed had been employed ? He should still wish to difficult of access ; and, in itself, the harbour was ex have seen thnt part of the Treaty, as to the fortresses, tremely dangerous. No Captain would, therefore, in otherwise worded. the roughest weather, take shelter ; and this the Right Mr. CANNING replied, that had we kept all the Hon. Gentleman might have known, if he had the three fortresses, by the stipulation,. we should have .opportunity of making any personal inquiry into its been put under the necessity of keeping more troops s i tuat i on and circumstan ces. there than what' we might afterwards deem cone- - 1 Mr. SHERIDAN admitted lie never yet had seen nicut. The money already granted 'had been care -1 Holyhead—yet he had formed an idea of its inferic. fully laid out in strengthening the island, and an 1 r i t y to the new-found bay, of which he did not yet account rendered. I know the name (a l aug h ). This bay had, when it. - 14 • Oc 6,0 C 5,c? 10.0g0 Mr. WINDHAM could why we ? was customar y not understand, to .. in Ireland pigeon th e Lottery, been had not stipulatedlor the possession of the fortress of : the constant resort of all the pigeon-boats ; and he Melazzo, as well as those of Augusta and Messina. had been informed by a friend, that to this day speedy Mr. WILBERFORCE disapproved of that clause intelligence was often sent by that route in preference in the treaty which rendered it indispensable that both .to the other. All these natural advantages, notwith powers should be included in making a peace. He standing, had fallen before the powerful influence of thonjht that past experience, in this respect, should ancient prejudice and venerable predilection, mingled render this country more cautious. with the operation of the Holyhead Captains' strong Mr. CANNING observed, that it was no doubt interest exerted to close up that harbour. desirable, if ever the possibility occurred, to restore Mr. WARDLE knew well the harbour of Port his Sicilian Majesty to his original dominions. It was yroclyne, and the reasons of the prejudice against it one of the stipulations in the last negociation with I were such as stated by the Right honourable Gen- France, that that power should be included. tleman. It was capable of containing thirty sail of Mr. BANKES disapproved of the continuance of the largest vessels, and was there only a fair trial of such a practice, by which we were to be bound by competition given to the two, he was satisfied the pre such engagements in regard toyeace. • _ sent harbour would, in less than ten years, be totally The Resolution was then put and agreed to. ou The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER , M t o r f use. WHITBREAD thought there should be some then proposed, plans submitted to the House, on the expediency of " Thati sum, not exceeding 500,0001. be granted to his Ma- the grant. jesty towards th^ relief of the several P ersons whose houses and : property were destroyed by the fire at Roseau, in the island et Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY said, he had for • med his opinion from the representations of !sir. Renny, Dominica, occasioned by the firing of our guns against the enemy." I as eminent surveyor. Mr. WINDHAM observed, that it mattered not Mr. WARDLE could easily account for the whether it was occasioned by our guns or those of the opinion he had given. Mr. Renny was the person Icncmy ; but the question ought to depend upon the! who had been engaged to build the bridges of Mena , I meritorous conduct of those to whom this relief was' and Conway, which would be rendered unnecessary I to be granted. should the new harbour come into use. I- Mr. 'Alderman CURTIS expressed his high appro. After some observations from Mr. FOSTER, Mr. bation of the Resolution proposed, and he wished i BERESOORD, and Mr. S. BOURNE, 1 that some person in the House of greater weight than , Earl TEMPLE thought it improper to make any I himself—(4 loud laugh)—would propose as an I grant, before there had been some reason given for i Amendment e That double the sum stated should be . the preference to the harbour of Holyhead. granted to these sufferers." General TARLETON supported the grant. Mr. TIERNEY thought that each should have a Mr W. WYNNE wished a Committee should be proAo le rtional share, according to his loss. appointed to ascertain the propriety of continuing to CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER communicate with Ireland, by Holyhead, or by I said that the sum he had proposed was according to i Port-yn•Clyne. an appointment already made out. i Mr. FOSTER thought it rather hard the House Mr. YORKE considered the conduct of the inha- • would not give the Irish Members now here a safe tants so meritorious, in effectually resisting so very mode of conveyance over, but wished rather to de , considerable a force brought against the colony, that fain them, until they at their leisure discovered a new j he was resolved to vote for the larger sum £lOO,OOO, ; and better harbour. which he had heard would be but one half of the loss ' Mr. SHERIDAN hoped the influence of the Cap ' sustained by these meritorious sufferers. 1 . tains of packets would not prevail against the cause Mr. BARHAM thought it would have been bet. of public utility. It would be better to place both ter to distribute the grant specifically to those who harbours on an equal footing, and by dividing the I had suffered most, or were least able to bear the loss. grant, give each a fair trial. Several persons who were now to be remunerated, he • Mr. CANNING thought the ease pow stood fairly ; had heard, were at the time in London and other on its just merits. The Right Hon. Gentleman places. and some of them were females, who could wished the respective merits of the two harbours I have taken no great share in the defence of the should he ascertained : for this purpose, a register in I colony. future should be kept of the number of Irish ; mem ' Earl TEMPLE hoped there would be presented bers who should be drowned in tlieir passage over by ) shortly to the House some correct account of the in- the way of Holyhead, and also those drowned in their tended distribution of so considerable a sum of the passage by the new port. On the annual survey ef i public money, this account, Parliament might, from the compare- I' Lord CASTLEREAGH conside r ed the disolbu- tivc loss of their brethren, ascertain which was the tion proposed by the Hon. Member unjust to the me- best harbour • a committee might on that draw up a nits of the individ ua l s , an d datgerous to the peace report, and the matter be adjusted to the great satis . land union of the inhabitants of the colony. The re- faction of all parties but the sufferers, who, it would lief should be generally extended to all the sufferers. be generally admitted, had fallen victims to an ex. Earl TEMPLE again observed, he wished those periment for the service of the community.--(Lguii who had been most active in the defence of the town lentghing). should be more immediately remunerated, inasmuch Mr. SHERIDAN complimented the Right Hon. as they had a double claim on the benevolence of Go- Member for his good humour and wit, though he vernment. could not help observing, that, like a good Irishman , The CHANCELLOR of the ExcHgQT.TER. he had made his blunder, in supposing there were no thought no fair line of diftinction could he justly other persons concererd in this traffic to and from 1 I 1 0' *PI v7ll an un bu