Star. — London, England, 1831-07-06 00:00:00

4! I i t tie a ctacs , that tea' - titian had b een r , up h e the: mon - tees of the corporation, and diet peseta had been insects te sign it by belie; three ...114.V they lefueed, to be deprived of their share in the fmtde ,if h:uify in the hands of the terporatien. This was denied by the honourable member who pre ented that petition, but be had since received a cot. robotatien of his statement, and the present petition had Bien entruettil to him inecaneequenee. by which it would be seem that the far tar poition did net speak the sentiments of the majority of ;he inhabitants of the town. Nir W. J R AKES ftlt surprised that the honourable member Amer; he the voluntary machine of 'Resenting such a petition, the enact intended to be produced by which was to nen4alise a tertian which he had presented from the hnuseholdere of Alarlbewougb. Was it, he would ask, in tended by this petition to prove that his petition was not true ? 1115 petition had been signed by upwards of 130 yorenes. while that of the honourable member was only signed hq 110 . "'hie!) 119 signatures had been procured with the oreittest difficulty. and only by dint of going front house to hottee. He (Mr. Bunko) 'felted to know whether the hon. member was state that the petition be had presented asked for election by hr lot. he could not bring himself to think that he did. The greater mat of the inhabitants of illarl. !enough were totally against the prop :el plan of ref ;rm. Mr. WELLFSLEY ottservtd, thet the first signature was that of a banker, and the second that of a naval officer; these were proors of their truth. The borough was, and had been Lord Arleeberv's, his Lordebtp;tarlng nominated for more than the last half century. Tee members of electors had never been more than six or eight. There had beta in three or four years five or six petitions to open the beroue*:. All were for the Bill. Petition ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. The Marquis of CH ANDOS gave notice of his intention to mime the followieg addition to the Referm bill in the Committee An tl et blll :—" That any person occupying and farming on his own account, land of not less value than fi9l. a eear, though without a specific tenure of the land, shell be entitled to vote at elections of Knights of the Shire wherein the land is situated; provided always that nn such occupant ' ‘hall be entitled to vote entil he shall have been ore year in the bona fide peseeesion cf such land." REFORM BILL (ENGLAND ) Lord J. RUSSELL moved, that the order of the day for the adjourned debate be read. The original motien and amendment were then rend by the Clerk of the House, and Mr. Ti. A. DUNDAS said, that having on a former oc sion received the indulgence of the house, when lie had ven tured to express his opinion on the subject now under its consideration. he should trespass very shindy 03 its patience in the observations he was now about to offer. He could not edmit the principle laid down by the Hon. Member for Kirkcnabright (?Ir. C. Ferguson), that this was an improper eeason for members connected with Scotland, to call the atten tion of the house to any hut that part of the measure which ref( reed to :his country. He had no hesitation in saying, that the thanks of the house were due for the arrangement which me hon. member for Newark hail nude with Government; that the three measures should be placed before the house at once, in order that an opportunity might be furnished for con •Meretely trying the merits cf that bill upon its principle and its de::!ils. Ile begged to be understoot . that in the observa tions he now effired if be strictly c .mined himself to the two points of the measure which appLed to England and Scotland, without alluding to that part of it which related r.) Ireland. he could :stare hon. members who were ccn remelt with that country, that it did not arise f:om any in difference to its interests, but because, fe, ling himself less conversant with its history, lic should Lave that to those who could do it much better than himself. ) He had listened with greet attention to the able speech made by the tight hen. manlier for Knaresborough (Sir J. Mackin. resit), and al,* to the statement made by the noble lord, the Paymaster of the Forces, on the evening when he introduced the measure: end although he did not pretend to question the facts deduced from history, which the noble bold atel the right hon. gentlemen asserted to justify the great change which government wished to introduce into the Constitu. lion, yet them was nuthii g in these facts which could jus. tify the sweeping, unconstitutional, preposition, to which they called on the [louse to accede. (Hear.) The noble lord contended that there never had occurred a period for fifty years loge :her at which the Constitution had remain - el the same, anti that Ministers were not the first who, with unit:di/wed hands, now dared to violate the sacredness of the constitution. But if it were admitted that changes had been progressively going on In the constitution, and that these changes tended to confirm the liberties of the people, he contended that with all the knowledge front history brought to bear as a precedent on this measure, they did not ral:e into consideration the gradual succession of these changes. That changes most important had taken place he did not deny, nor did he admit that these were attended with injury to the constitution. This was obvious from the simple fact, that in those changes in which they had been attended with benefit, they had enntiomot to (cm put of the conAltution, whit, to every instance in which they had been attended with injury, they had almost immediatelybeen discontinued. But he said it with firmness and with much confidence in the assertion, that from the days of Henry VII. down to the present time, no change had been introduced, so general in ire provision, and so sweeping in its nature as that proposed by ministers. There might perhaps be what he had heard stated by an hon. baronet, (Sir F. Burdett.) that the first alterations might, in n manner, he somewhat of an innova tioz on the constitution, but he would say in:the earliest feudal times e f our history, when the contest was carried on between the horse and the barons, that the people might at that pe riod Lave exercised the right of voting without any parti cular definite qualifications. But as good government and social order were the best proofs of the blessings of a con sti:utior, he was willing, for the sake of argument, to rake a history of the rights of the electors, of the elections of Erg. Lind from the days of Queen Elizabeth. (Hear.) The rekte lad who introduced the measure had referred with match exultation to the constitution during the reign of the Tailors ; and argued that because the constitution had not then settled, he in those days was justified in making a consi derahle change. But, although the constitution was not weed at that time, yet there did exist, both before and eve: since that crisis. the same right of election throughout the cities and berceghs of this country, which existed at the present moment. The same system continued to influence the electors of that house during the subsequent dynasty of the Stuarts, and by that influence were secured to the Com mons of Erglerd those distinguished privileges which were enjoyed. It was stated by the noble lord, and attended to by the right hon, member for Knaresboreugh, to free themselves front the charge of Republicanism that 'they folksy/el the sentiments of the illustrious Lord Clarendon. Bo; the system introduced by Cromwell, was not to be taken as a entople of what would have been introduced by Leel Clerenden, but even that introduced by the former was meth more moderate and conservative than that proposed by the government. He gave the noble lord (Russell) credit for his intentions when he said that the intention of his bill ' iris to maintain unimpaired the prerogatives of the crown, the just authority of both houses of Patliament, and the, rice :s and liberties of the people of England. He believed the noble lard was sincere in his statement; but what was the plan proposed by Cromwell ? He would take it front the statement of Mr. Hume. That 'niter said that Crotteell, in the parliament which he called in 1047, depriv ed of their right of electior, all the small boroughs moat exeeed to competition. Of 400 members who represented Lngiaud, 271 i acre chosen by the counties, and the remainder of them were elected by London and the more considerable cor porations. An estate of 2001. annual value was necessary to totide any ore to vole. Now, on a comparison of the , systems, this most material difference was to be found, that ' Cromwell in his charges paid respect to the corporations,— which the principle of this bill went wholly to destroy. And that an tome of 2601. sterling, which would now-a-days amount to between 0001. and 7001. was to be lowered to the ablest no Tutlifica•ion of 101. Admitting that parliamentary reform was necessary, and that the demand was for an uniform instead of a varied election, a position which he admitted for the sate of ingtin.ete—lie could not lite feel surprised that miristets should not have grounded their measure in some atoll way as to Lai e confined the elections to persons of pro perty and undi-puted respectability. By such a course that comupt system which had been so much spoken of es exist ing in boroughs, and particularly in those places popularly , re resented, would have been removed. It had been proved by t xemierce that if ministers had introduced any measure of a more 'retrieved nature, it would have been easy at any dote to have extended Its provisions ; but it had always been difficult, and it- many instances dangerous, to attempt to cur tail liberties when they had been once extended. As, how. ever, a noble friend (Lord Porchester) of his had said, this measure was undoubtedly and avowedly a measure of expe riment. If ministers failed in this experiment, what would be the consequences no one could foresee. He would ask, if te•lno of ins Majesty's ministers or any respectable person in :he tore:dont could suppose that the highly agitated hopes aid teetiegsof the people would ever apain quietly subside into an acquiescence into that system sender which we h a d been now living (should the present measure fail), a nd w hi c h lie conscientiously believed to be by der the more beneficial and discreet system. He felt confident there was not an indi. s ',dual in that house who was ready to suggest a remedy, should die measure fail. And when he looked round him,and saw the incentives there were to action—when he referred to his own country, and observed the prudent management of the inhabitants there, of their domestic affairs—their marked prudence even in their speculations, be could not help being astonished at the political mania that now raged throughout the country. He did not hail those ebullitions of enthu siasm with the same view as did honourable gentlemen on the soh ir side of the House. He could not believe they were the harbingers of either good government or social order; and whatever the result might be, he was certain that they augured to good or any Lope of permanence even in the state of things which would succeed the passing of the measere.-- (Hear, hear.) If the people were excited on this occasion, that excitement was attributable not to their own conduct, but to the conduct of the honourable gentlemen op posite, who, while out of office, held up their imaginary grievances, but grievances for which, while they had been in offiee, they hail rot been able to apply any substantial re medy. He could not help adverting to the comparison of popular feelieg forty years ago, made by the noble lord who brought in the Bill, and the popular feeling that existed at present. pia was sensible that if he brought forward state ments in detail to centradict the analogy that had been drawn, he should be met by corresponding speeches re specting every town. But, admitting the proposition of tie Noble Paymaster of his Majesty's Forces, that a Re form, and an extensive Reform, might be necessary in the rLi r,:nin:atian of some parts, an universal sweeping mea sure, like the present, could on no account be called for.— 'Latin as to the Union between Scotland and England, and the subsequent Union between England and Ireland, being made (and they h. d certainly been SO rag ticd) grounds for the disfranchisement of many of the towns of England, it was clear thatboth the &inch anti English Cotntnissiorers struggled hard to have as extensive a system of franchise for their respec tive counties as they possibly could ; what was dor e was very eoon considered on all hands to be then equitable and just, but it was as different from the present sweeping measure as day was from night ; and if the present arbitrary form of legislation was to be adopted, he could not see why the same tart of policy should not enter into dealings with private pro peety. Ile was sorry that the noble lord (the Secretary for Foreign Affeits) was not now in his place, but he trusted the house would soon have the benefit of his talents and of his • experience. The opinion of that noble lord on the (Reran. chisement of the Irish 40s. freeholders, was so clear and so I decisive, and his reasons for opposing that measure so strong, that he (Mr. Dundas) would advert to it. The noble lord said, it had bean argued in support of that measure that it would pui az aid to a vast deal of fraud and pet jury, that was usually co..anted by that class of voters, but he, the noble lord, said he was decidedly opposed to such a sweeping act of injustice, and that it was most unjust to make the I existence of one evil the cause for committing a greater. ! Now, it was more unjust in the present instance to dig franchise individuals by this bill, than the measure of ! disfranchising the forty-shilling freeholders, for in some degree the latter persons received compensation by the passing of the Catholic Emancipation Bill, while the per. proposed to be dishianchised by this Reform Bill, would receive no compensation whatever. He would admit,for the sake of argument, that the English reform bill was founded on strict justice, and that it was proper to disfran. chew so many boroughs; but it the English bill were-just,' what was the principle upon which the Scotch bill was founded ? Why was not the same principle applied to both countriee ? It was said that the object was to destroy the nomination of members, and to extend the right of voting to great towns, but when he found the measure for Scotland conducted upon a different principle, he was at a loss to divine by what the ministers had been governed. The principle of the English bill seemed to he to disfran chise boroughs, while in Scotland it was to disfranchise counties. Many of the Scotch counties contained a greater population than some of the English counties. Another material point was this, that while in England a town of less than two thousand inhabitants was to be disfranchised in schedule A, and a population of above two thousand par tially so in schedule B, the whole of the disfranchisement, as regarded Scotland, was to operate in a far different way. It hen he was told that the signs of the times called for reform, be must confess that it was his opinion that the sign of the times called on them to unite and rally round the institutions of the country. An hon. baronet (Sir J. Mackintosh) last night stated in his speech, that he would touch with delicacy on the events which bad taken place on the continent, he was right in doing so ; but he (Mr. Dun. dace) recollected that nine months ago, during the Duke of Wellington's administration, when he bad the honour to se cond the Address to his Majesty, he then stated that he ap prehended danger would arise to the constitution of this country from what had taken place in France. He admitted that the revolution in that country arose from the arbitrary measures of the king and his ministers, rather than from the bad feelings of the people' but there we. nay no individual of property in France who would not exchange their pro mised hopes of security, for the mild government of the house or Bourbon. Never was there an occasion when there was less necessity than the -present to trample under foot those institutions which raised this country to its present eminence, and which had conferred on the people a greater share of happiness than has hi , ;hero fallen to the lot of any other nation on the face of the earth. Capt. BERKELEY (we believe) addressed the house shortly in support of the bill. Ile spoke from under the gallery. He said, he should support the bill to its whole ex tent. It had been said that the people of England had made use of this great measure as a cloak and disguise for revolu tion, nnd still worse proceedings. He (Csptain Berkeley) considered this a most gross libel on the people of England, for he was satisfied, as far as his own constituency went, that no such feeling was in existence. He trusted that when the present measure was passed into a law, all emnity would be dropped ; and he hoped the cry of the bill, the whole bill, and nothing but the bill, which gave so much offence to parties, would be buried in the same grave with the cry of " no change—least of all such change as you can give us." (Cheers.) Sir J. NIALCOL3I said he felt it to be itisduty to oppose the Bill. He had attended, both in the last and present Parlia ment, to all the discussions that had taken place In the house upon it, and the supposed effects of its operation • but with a good deal of surprise he had not observed one single word said as to the probable effect that it would have upon our colonial interests. He considered the measure a concession to the popular feeling--(hear from the Opposition)—and tic thought that those who were at the bead of the Ouvernment would do well not to give ear to popular clamour at the ex pense of private interest. And he could not see the neces. sity for going to such a sweeping extent. He added, that he had the good fortune to belong to schedule B, or the bad fortune as it might be. Dependence was talked of—he knew of none ; and yet if there were, there must be some ' men dependent on others, whoever might be the Ministers. He looked at the question in a national point of view only. His objections to the Bill were those he had stated last Ses sion ; they were only confirmed by time. He repeated, he must regret the measure, as being a concession to popular feeling—(hear, hear)--as a yielding to clamour. (Hear.) — With a firm hand they ought to pursue what they thought would contribute to the public good. The feeling of Englishmen, was obedience to the laws ; and be appre. !tended none of those serious consequences from the rejection of the Bill, which others anticipated. (Hear, hear, hear.) Those who sought these changes, he would ask, what was the:situation of those who bad been in the last ? Except by their wealth, they had no means of taking part in the constitution. There was talk about boroughmongers—would it not be as rational for him to denounce demagogues ? NVltere was the reason of such argument ? Those who re ferred to the Tudors, should recollect how different was the state of things now ; the extent of the population at present obeying English rule. He must be pardoned if he looked to results—if he relied on the fruits without reference to the character of the soil. He spoke confidently from his expe rience in India; and he knew well the character and impor tance of maintaining our resources in India. He then spoke of the great reductions of expenditure in India, which &hewed the excellence of the government there. He said, the inhabitants of the vast empire of India confidently look. ed up to the blessings of the government of this country— and would they, then, consent to change that government ? Now, India looked to participate in the rays of royalty ; but what would be its fate it the bill passed ? He felt per suaded that reason would still establish its ascendancy, and show the injurious character of the bill. To the argument of compulsion and to threats, he was most unwilling to sub mit—he hoped they would not be swayed by such oratory. —( Hear, hear.) Sir F. VINCENT said much had been observed about pledges, but were there no " pledges" to Peers from those who filled boroughs? Were there not "delegates" front the Peers as well as from the people ? (Hear, hear.) He thought there was as little good taste as good sense in these remarks. (Hear.) But to show the weakness of such lan guage, he would ask, had there not been constantly pledges demanded where there were popular contests ? He ap proved of the bill ; it was essentially the same as the last bill. The power of the parliament to interfere in remedy. ling evils in the representation on various occasions bad been proved. All admitted some reform to he necessary. (Hear, hear.) The eyes of the people were opened. They would not be satisfied without extetisive and real reform. They saw that many members had been quite as anxious to con sult and promote their own advantage as those of the public —he only said " bad" been—(a laugh and cheers)—and the people desired, and justly, representation of a different dia meter • such representation es would really and wholly con sult the people's interests and welfare. lie could assure them that the people were no longer to be blinded by so phistry , they could consult and pursue what were their own interests. He denied that the late elections had been car ried by any delusions. It had been declared that the people sought reforin as something that was to make provisions cheap ; they had nut sought it, and did not promote it on any such extravagant ground ; but they did believe that te. form would effect most substantial relief for the country. And he concurred confidently in that belief. Could they forget, could the country forget, that all the real and sub. vandal measures of relief that hail been proposed to that House had been as invariably rejected by the House ? What then Lad the country to hope, but from reform. The truth of Mr. Pitt's assertion had been realised, that no ho nest man sould be a Minister and do justice by the people. And the people saw it made manifest every where, and in every possible shape, that the power of the tax consumers was greater than that of the tax-payers. The people had these opinions, and he thought they were right in holding them. What had i.assed, hr thought, demonstrated their correctness; he should, therefore, give the Bill his humble Drat firm support—reserving to himself the right of suggest ing alteratione in the committee. (Hear, hear.) Colonel TRENCH considered that the nieasnre was rash, improvi lent, ill-considered, and revolutionary ; that it would encroach upon property, and the most important public interests; and he should rhererore conscientiously but most decidedly oppose the till. (Hear, hear.) Thcrc hul been teretefore made a parallel between Tavistock and Cambridge, but it was not borne out by filets ; Tavistock had no members, and Cambridge 200 representatives.— (Laughter.) He n cant electors. Cambridge was not under the dictation of the Duke of Rutland ; the electors, desiring to avoid revolution, looked up to the duke, but they were not under his dictation : whereas the Duke of Bedford had tenants in Tavistock. There was, therefore. tee itherjetstice nor truth in the parallel and criticism of the noble mover of the bill. The Duke of Rutland had not an inch of ground in Cam. bridge. If, however, the bill were persevered in, and if out rage took line, he cottfidently looked to the laws to rescue the country from the imminent dangers that would follow the bill. Ile trusted that the day was far distant when they should be operated upon either by violence from without or • by eloquence and passion within doors; and lie also trusted that the time was remote when the S•tvereivn would have to submit to the dictation of that house, which he was sure would be the result, if the changes contemplated by this bill were carri,d iuto eine. As to the threats that were held out—that they would become victims who sliculd dare to oppose the bill—he despised them ; and he hoped that they would be equally despised by all who professed to have the hearts of Englishmen.. . . Mr. VERNON said, that notwithstanding the doubt that had so frequently been cast upon the fact, there wos, he could assure the houso, something like unanimity nniorg the people of Nottingham, and that the mass of the intelligent and tespecable of the population were in favour of the measure of reform. He had heard much of the slight that bad been endeavoured to be cast upon what was called the cry fcr the bill, antl nothing but the bill. lie confessed that he had given encouragement to that cry ; and he had codes voured to teach his electors to discern between mock and real reform. Considering the artifices that were' too frequently ' resorted to at elections, it was necessary to have something like a test, and he had taken fur his ten the bill of his Ma jesty's Ministers. It had been said that there existed no such excitement as now pervaded society until this bill had been proposed, he assigned us a reason for this that there never had till then been any substantial plan of reform offered to the people. He was an avowed advocate for the measure of reform, but he dii not become its advoctte under the in fluence el fear. lie did not crouch before the genius of Reform like as the Ilindoos did to appease the malignity of their idol deities with victims, but he beheld its advent as the appearance of a tutelar saint ; and he cheerfully surren dered to it all right and claim to nomination as a merited and deserving ofkring. With regard to alarm raised about' the violation of the Constitution, lie considered that the Constitution was a thing which must yield to the visits of experience. Government must be progressively improved. With regard to necessity of a change, tie would adduce, as a proof, the unanimous feeling that ha,d returned the pre. sent parliament to pass this bill of reform. But this, it bad been said, was no more than a feverish excitement ; they ...ism 3‘.••...sett ".7 'hat the lightning was the work of the philosopher, who bad constructed the conductor. Ilia Majesty's Ministers had not claimed it as their thunder.— The hon. member proceeded to enumerate several reasons in favour of the bill, end said that the last point he would urge upon their attention was, the evidences of their own con sciences. lie appealed to them all if it was not true that member. for counties and large cities had not always had more weight and consequence in the House, and as such had been ushered into public notice, than members for. smaller places, in the present state of unequal representation —(A few cries of no, no.) Gentlemen might cry no, no, but they could not deny that in the lists of returns that issued from the public press such names were always sent forth with an asterisk, and every one understood the mark of distinction. At the present moment it was necessary to give satisfaction to the people. (Hear, hear, hear.) The Gallant General (Sir J. Malcolm), had, as an ar gument in favour of rotten boroughs, urged the necessity of their existence on the ground that they were the only channel through which the colonies could be represented, for through them alone could the Hon. Gentlemen gain ad. mission to the house, who were :possessed of information sufficient to reptesent the colonial interest. The Hon. Member was of opinion that no danger need be apprehended on that head, regartiing the representation of the colonial , interests. There never could be any difficulty in that House of procuring infotmatien sufficient for that purpose —sufficient to rule the colonies, but not to be ruled by them. He would instance the gallant General himself as a bright example, whose interesting works on the policy of the co lonics contained a mans of information so comprehensive and definite that they were not likely to be more enlightened by the admission of a vast number who might present them. selves as the reptesentatives of the colonial interests. And that interest might be very well attended to, although the proprietors might not perhaps be enabled to command a seat in parliament by the dash of a pen remitted to their banker.. There need exist little apprehension that' all those gentlemen who had signalized themselves in the proper qualifications as members fur that house, would as easily procure seats in parliament under the new system as the one that now existed. • The honourable gentleman went into a detail of the advantages to be expected from the bill, and said that he approved of it because it destroyed all nominations, and abridged the expenses of elections. For what purpose was all the mockery of an election preserved, theSparade of high constables, beadles, and poll clerks, while nominations were suffered to exist—while it was known that the return was really eQeted by the single voice of the no. mination of the borough. The oppositionists to the measure had been indefatigable in pointing out anomalies in the new system proposed, but they would not see nor admit of the anomalies of the present system. With regard to the reduction of the expenses of elections, that had not been sought for by his Majesty's Ministers for their own benefit;—but it had been done for the good of the people, and to enable them to ret. to as representatives men of their choice—The word re volution had been used again and again to scare them from their purpose, but there need be no tear entertained on that head by the hon. gentlemen, if they would rid themselves of their own prej udices ; these might perhaps alarm them, but there was nothing to be feared from the people, whom they were rather about to more firmly unite to themselves. The hon. gentleman briefly referred to different periods of his tory, and said that, however the house might receive the declaration, he candidly confessed that the word revolution had never to him been a frightful word, as he looked on It as it had ever occurred in English history. In conclusion, if he were asked would he be contented if he saw this day star of the British constitution set, that day-star which had been painted by Burke in such glowing colours, he would answer, that be would be contented, for he felt assured that it would only set to rise again in increased light and splen dour. The honourable gentleman concluded his speech by eulogizing the measure in moat glowing terms, and eat down amidst loud cheers. Mr. DEARING acknowledged that the people had a right to be fairly represented, and he said that, if the present house was not the representatives of the people, they consequently could not legislate in so momentous a question u thegrest change proposed. It had been admitted that the bill would confer no practicable benefit upon the people, which was a strong presumption that no practicable evil existed in the present system. Mr. Pitt's system of reform had been often ' quoted as authority by the supporters of the bill; but if they referred to that system as brought forward both in 1782 and 1785, they would find that the first principle laid down in Mr. Pitt'a plan was, that reform was not to be erected by dis franchisement. He did not mean to urge the justness or un justness of the act, he only meant to infer that it was wrong in policy, the franchising of certain classes to the exclusion of others. The restriction to the 101. rents would disfran chise many in the country, while in large towns it would al. most establish universal suffrage. And in like manner the regulation of the terms of leases would operate. The country gentlemen and the town proprietors would be placed in similar states of conflicting interests. It was clear that some interest must Buffer by the change. By the present ',stern every interest found its advocate within these walls. The measure must be the forerunner of still greater dangers. The noble lord who brought forward the bill had acknow. led that he had framed a bill on a former occasion, in which he had proposed to take one member from each of the bo roughs, but he had abandoned it on refection, being convinced that the first set of • reformed parliament would have been to take away the other member from them. The hon. gen tleman went on to point out the anomalies in the proposed measure, and the unequal distribution of members, which, he said, wits much worse than the existing system, and would only lay the round for fresh dissentions. The noble lord had declared he wished this to be a final measure, and he (Mr. D.) believed that his lordship was sincere ; but could he answer for his allies 1 He feared not ; when he saw his lordship cheered on by all the turbulent spirits of the coun try, those who would destroy whatever was venerable of the institutions of the country, he could only anticipate that worse consequences must follow. The hon. gent. said, that although be would oppose the bill, he still would always be ready to support any improvement that might be suggested for the benefit of the coonny. If they would rally round their ancient institutions, all the good would be realised that the noble lord in his most sanguine desires could hope for. Mr. L. BUJ.MRR supported the measure. He at great length enquired into the relative positions of the aristocracy and democracy of the country, and said it was the duty of the aristocracy to remove the cause of complaint. The bill had obtained the sanction of an intelligent, enlightened, and unanimous people. ( Cheers.) Mr. LYONS had to choose between the new untried constitution, the result of the labours of the present Govern ment, and a constitution, the fruit of much wisdom and ex perience, which had carried this country through so maiy storms. (Hear, hear.) He recognised, not the gradual and prudent innovations of our forefathers, but sweeping aid sudden changes. The destruction of the corporate rights was unjust, because the corporations were not proved to have forfeited their privilege by any improper conduct : impolitic, because these boroughs had been the channel through which much talent, and integrity, and wisdom, had found its way to that house. The class of members to be excluded had by their presence prevented a collision between the upper and lower houses. Five new members were given to Ireland. Was, then, that country so conciliated and attached to Eng land as to warrant such an increase? (Hear from Mr. O'Connell.) The Protestants were too few to have any share in the elections under the proposed system. He hoped his apprehensions were unfounded. He sincerely prayed that the commonwealth might survive these rash and inconsiderate innovations. Mr. GODSON said he was proud to have been bound by the Reform pledge—a pledge demanded from their represen tatives by a free people, at the request of a patriot king. Why was the anti-reformers who taunted them for being pledged, not pledged thems elves? Because they had no constituents. (Hear, hear.) Parliament bad a right to change the representation. At the union with Scotland and Ireland, the representation of those two countries was completely re-modelled. The English boroughs had been repeatedly dealt with. Public opinion, talents, and elo quence were arranged on the side of reform. Now was the time to effect it, when the country was in profound peace He denied that the colonial interest would be unrepresented. An East or West India merchant, who laid out hie money in this country would be better represented in one-half of a county thin in any rotten borough. Why should the IW. franchise be incompatible with the Constitution I , The ex tension of the representation to the large towns was admitted to be just ; but if a new class of franchises were not created, the election would be made by the payers of scot and lot.— (The honourable member became inaudible, owing to the loud coughing of the honourable members.) Mr. E PEEL said that the expectations of the people respecting the measure of reform to be dealt out to them by the bill before the house, would not be realised. The great object of the bill was to disfranchise fifty-seven boroughs altogether, and take one member for forty others. He did not see how the spoliation of the rights of the people could be justified; but sure he was that the day was not far dis tant when the delusion of the people on the subject would be dissipated. It was intended by this bill that the rights Possessed by a ~oats *mkt of freemen shall not descend to those who shall come after them. Put then the present freemen were to enjoy the power they possessed during their lives; so that a power which was said to be dangerous and subversive of the great principle upon which the elective franchise was founded, was to be continued to the present possessors of it. Was there not something very contradic tory in this circumstance ? The non-resident owners of warehouses were, by this bill, to possess a privilege which they had not heretofore enjoyed (cheers from the opposition). So you give to the non-resident rich man a power which you take from the non-resident poor man (repeated cheers from the opposition). These freemen were as independent a set of men as could be found (hear). Perhaps it might be said that they were open to bribery (cheers. and laughter from the treasury benches). But, he would ask, was these any proof that the ten-pound liftmen would not be equally open to the influence of a bribe ? (Cheers front the Opposition)._ After some further observations on the provisions of the Bill, the hon. member concluded by saying that he should oppose it. Col. TORRENS supported the measure of Reform be. fore the House, because it was called for by the entire peo ple of the country; and he would place the responsibility of the consequence resulting from a refusal of the measure : upon the heads of those who should oppose it. 1 Mr. TREVOR asked why a body of 'icemen who had I not been found guilty of any Improper Set should be die. franchised, as was proposed by this Bill. It was said that' ' 1 the voice of the people of England had been raised in favour of Reform ; but was this cry to drown the still voice of I discretion ? The King's name had been most uncon stitutionally used to advance this measure of Reform : I(hear, hear; and cries of oh, oh.) lie did say that placards I with " the King, the People, and Reform'—(cheer from both sides of the House)—yes, such placards had been placed 1 1 upon the walls throughout the country, for the purpose of deluding the people t (cheers from both sides of the House.) But the ple would soon awake from this delusion • ' and he ho his Majesty's Ministers would then be prepared ho for sat an occurrence. Although he admitted the necessity of some reform, he yet could never give his assent to a measure that was calculated to destroy the constitution under which they had so long and so happily lived. (Hear.) 1 Mr. MACAULAI would discuss this question without reference to party topics. He would go into the consideration of the question without reference to the permanency of any set of Ministers • for the question of reform was far moss important than Minister; existence of this or that Ministry. Be fore he entered upon the general question, be would proceed to examine one argument that had been ed on this subject. The elective franchise had been argued as if it were property —as if it were an estate, or as goad property as that pa seised by the fundholder s (hear, hear ; cries of no, no, from the Opposition.) He understood the argument to go to that extent. He denied that the elective franchise was property, and it was because be so considered it that be gave his sup port to this bill, which he contended did not invade vested rights. In all the debates which took place during the time of Cromwell, Lord Clarendon and Hale admitted that the elective franchise was not property, and the reform which took place at that period was nut considered any violation of pro perty. The disfranchisement of the 40a. freeholders was de cisive on the point. lie believed that every man in the country did not consider the present measure an attack upon property; and considering that the elective franchise was not property, the only question to be considered was the ex pediency of the measure. The honourable and learned mem. ber then referred to the speech of the Noble Lord (Porches , ter) which he admitted chewed great talent, but he disputed the inferences drawn by the noble lord lions the state of France, and denied that the House of Commons bore the least an alogyi to the Chamber of Deputies. He considered the Chamber of Deputies a forced assembly, an exotic pro. duced by the violence of patty feelings. England was advancing in c vilisation, and that alone rendered the improvement of her institutions as essential to the well-being of the country. The whole history of England was a history of succession of re. forms. (Cheers.) The institutions of England had edu cated the people and prepared their minds for better insti tutions. ( Chee rs.) England surpassed every other country in improvements, and those circumstances and improvements evinced the superiority of the information of the people. He then referred to the state of the laws, which he considered a disgrace to the country, and which he expected would tad mately be improved through the effect of the proposo measure. (Hear.) What was the state of the public mind during the late Administration ? Why, the Dort:maim were afraid to chew the Sovereign to the people. He conn. dared that the present bill would Lad and excite inereag e d attachment on the part of the people to the king and the lare,:. From every part of the country where the voice of th_ peopb. was heard, there was but one opinion upon the expedienc t o . the Reform proposed. He wished to know if the hon. g en . tieman on the other side intended to propose any measur e of reform more calculated to satisfy the people ? The pr. sent bill was objected to on the ground of various aramealits it contained. He would ask did the hon. members whoop. posed the measure intend to lutreduce a measure whir l . would possess less, and one more likely to improve the in. stitutions of the country and the representation ? (H ot bear.) lie believed that the present measure would not be final, for a hundred years hence, probably ado. tber change might be deemed necessary. This was no! the country to wage the war of power against public opinion (Cheers.) The hon and learned member concluded a very eloquen. and argumentative speech, by expressing his con. scions belief that the proposed bill would consolidate and improve the institutions of the country, and that future generations would consider the noble bill under discussion. second Bill of Rights. The hon. member sat down amid• loud cheers. Mr. W. BA NEES said that he had listened to the speed, of the hon. and learned gentleman with great attendee,. but denied the justness of the theories laid down by the hoe. and learned gentleman. The opinion attributed to Lent Clarendon was incorrect. The hon. and learned gentle. man, in the commencement of his speech, deprecated any. thing that was exciting, although he did not adhere v. such a principle in referring to the time of Cromwell— The noble lord who introduced the measure also referred to an observation made use of by that person, when he wit. neaseed the :catch army within his power, and applied th expression to the hon. member who opposed the Bill, ar,:: returned thanks to GOD for having placed them in hie power (laughter). The hon. member then animadverted upon ne principles of the bill, which he condemned as likely to prove destructive to the best interests of the country. He Wt. nessed with grief the course which his Majesty's Govern. mcnt were pursuing (hear, hear). Lord ALTHORP said that there was nothing in tlt, speech of the Honourable Gentleman which he did not re. ceive good-humouredly. lie believed that the Honourable Gentleman was much mistaken as to the opinions of Lem Clarendon. He was of opinion that his 3lajesty's 3linisters could not do less than bringiforward the measure of reform, and they could not attempt to bring forward any measure that would not receive the support of the people of England. Nothing less than the bill proposed would satisfy the country. The Noble Lord passed a high eulogium upon the speech of the Noble Lord, the Member for Wootton Bassett,(Lord Porchcster,) but at the same time denied the correctum of the view taken by the Noble Lord of the cause of the vatio.- revolutions on the Continent, and the effect that the pre. posed Bill would produce in this country. He believed that the whole mass of the aristocracy would acquire an increase of influence under the Bill. With respect to the extension of the right of voting to freemen during their lives, :be Government considered that they had acted ul:on equitable views. It was alleged that the Bill would lessen the Colo. nial and East India influence in that House. He believed that those interests would cot suffer, as the character ac. quired by gentlemen in the East Indies would secure to them a seat in that House on their return to this country. He did not know on what grounds Honourable Gentlemen ' could firm an opinion, that gentlemen of rank would not be retained for counties and popular places, if this bill payed. Some of the largest counties in England were now represented by members of the aristocracy. In his opinion the people had a strong attachment for the aristocracy, unless such is appeared to be opposed to the interests of the bill. The noble lord having sat down, there were cries of adjourn! and di vide !—Silence having beta restored, Sir 0. MURRAY rose to address the house, when Mr. PICLIIBII moved an adjournment. Here there was *general cry of no! and the Srzoasa decided that Sir Geo. Murray being in possession of the house, had a right to be heard. Sir G. MURRAY then proceeded to observe, that he was not one of those who had been at all times opposed to Reform, but the sweeping change now proposed to be made he beard no reason to justify. In his opinion, the House, even as it was now composed, was the most efficient legislative assem bly in the world. He would ask what benefit would arise to the mass of the people from this extraordinary change ? If no advantage was to be derived from it to the people, what could be the object of it P Surely, the fact of it producing a better theoretical system of represen. tattoo was not sufficient to justify such an alters. tion in the Constitution of the House. We should continue to improve our Constitution by such cautious changes as were applicable to the circumstances of thetimes. The three estates of the realm were not distinct and pep'. rate, but blended with one another; it was to that circum. stance we owed out stability. The tendency of this mess. sure was to separate those estates, which would destroy the principle and practice of the British constitution. He raw nothilg in this measure ealculated to make the House mere efficient for legislating for the interests of the country than it was at present. He was certain that the noble lord (Althorp) would not be the Cromwell of the piece which Is was preparing for the theatre; but that Cromwell was per. haps, rejoicing in secret, and ray ing to himself, the Loan bad delivered them into my hands. Ile would oppose this bill, not through a factious spirit, or out of ar.y hostility to a prudent and moderate reform, Litt because Le theught it would lead to one of those convulsions which had upset other states. Colonel SI BTHORPE moved the adjournment of the debate until Thursday. Mr. HUBIE thought it more convenient to adjourn until to-day. After some desultory observations, the debate was ad. journed until this evening. Lord ALTHORP expressed his hopes that the house would come to a division this night. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of; and the House adjourned at Two o'Clock this morning. FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE. EXCLUSIVE EXTRACTS FROM THE CONTINENTAL PAPERS. FRANCE. We learn from Bordeaux, that the Royalists unanimously abstain from taking any part in the approaching elections. We have received similar news from all points of France. In the circum stances in which we are found, the royalists do themselves honour by that wise and worthy resolu tion.—La Quotidienne. The King, Queen and all the Royal Family, with Marshal Soult, and General Sebastiani left yesterday forMelun,they will return to• day. Nothing as yet transpired, about a change in the Ministry, of course all are wishing to keep on the best terms with their constituents at the present moment, which gives rise to many conjectures and ru mours, and in the cabinet it would produce a thorough re-organization, and therefore no pains will be spared amongst the Ministers themselves to keep the thing together as long as they can.— Le Temps. An historical fact which requires to be cleared up is now pretty n-torious. At the Battle of Waterloo, M. Tibare Sebastiani commanded the 11th Light Troops —At the moment of route, the waggons were pillaged; and a sapeur found a White Flag of silk, embroidered all over with golden fleur delis. On one side was: " 11th Regiment of Infantry ;" and on the other " Vire k Roil" The Sapeur carried this Sag to the general of his division; who, striking his head, cried out: Treason, Treason ! The remains of his flag are deposited at our office, where every one will be permitted to see them. We call the atten tion of the Messrs. Sebastiani upon this important fact. If the suspicions which it appears to autho• rise are confirmed, that family will indeed be un fortunate! Every thing is discovered ! There is no more underground work now-a-days !—La Tribune. The Ministerial workshop is in full activity. labouring away at the Electoral Machine. Yes teaday it was the affairs of Poland, which were upon the point of being arranged at the powerful