Star. — London, England, 1817-06-24 00:00:00

efere Mr. /owlet Ford, who congratulated him on his being about to be released, after soil/ring LI long a confinement, on a "'edition merely nominal—on hi. tuternig into a recognizaitee of 0:1000. This oiler he refused, a, he was in tepee:even that the suspension would soon b - t;.lstn off, when he intended brilearg Ids action for the inirtisunintut he had su stained,— Disappoleted in this hope, lie bad at length :Wailed himself of the offer wh eh had been made, and was set at liberty. When the Hebei. Corpus Act was rniileted to expire, he commenced legal pruce, thugs against dise by wham be had been cunlined, when he was stripped by a Bill art Indamnity, which then, as he (Me. Brand) thought, was improperly.pasitel ; and thus he was precluded Iron, seeking retire's, and !rant vindicating his character Ihe individual had then withal to do bus to de. clare, as he now did in this r a ttan, before his country, " per. sonat.d" by that Hou.e, and as he aiso declared with equal so lemnity before AL/410117 v GOD. that he never was in any way guilty of that which he understood to have been imputed to bins. 'The Honourable Member took ucca,iun to say, he should have little obj. c , : an to trust Ministers with the Habeas Corpus sus pension, it they mild thentselvc. See all the casts to which it was sq OW. the Petitioner bellev'ssi himself to have becu subjected to the hardships above stated through the niachina. 'lons of a person of iliiaMOUS character, who was employed to give informatien to Governisieht, aid who, at the instance ut the Petitioner, bad been expelisd on account ut Lis had conduct from a Sock y to which he had belonged. The individual from w h o m t he p.itition came, fpally prayed, that if the House had any doubt respecting his ciiinduct, they would permit bite to vindicate himself at their bar; and at all events called upon them not to accede to the measure about to be proposed against the fiber les of the country. Ou the qac,tien that the Petition should be brought up, Mr. BROUGHAM said, he should occupy the House but a (..w moments by saying a kw words upon a subject waich nearly concerned him; and he hoped, that though he might not be also. ;ether regular, hr would be excused, as it was not his intention 1.3 submit any motjosi. He was the very last man who would feel ch.:l - used to Like notice of soy breach of privilege without the greatest uscessity for so sluing; no man Ilse than hint was ready a. any Vole to proceed hastily against any person for what he might have done in properly, and perhaps lie never till that moult:it made any reference to a printed pubhcatlon of any de scription. 'there was a certain description of conduct which, ni hi. opinion, however, should not be atiowed to pass unnoticed. He alluded particularly to a must malicious and most grousniksa misrepresentation which had beta made upon sometime; which be. had said, in a Paper of Saturday last. '1 hat Paper had stated, that a Noble Lord opposite bad said of him that he had been guilty of a most wilful mier - epre.e..tation. It was unucetesary tut Is in to remind ail Member that such language, it u had takeu place, would not have been suffered in that House, b[lll k•ss was it nece-sary for him to say how improbable it was that any such language would have been used by the Noble Lord.— He had taken the trouble ut examining all the other Papers, and more of them cc:trained the slightest grounds fur any such charge as had been pin ieto the Noble Lord's mouth by the Paper lie mentioned. 1 hey bad taken the statement front a Morning Paper, which had that morning corrected what it lad reported. Lord LASCELLES had read the raper alluded to by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and had been :is much struck as be was by the pa sage which he had mentioned. That passage was a complete misrepresentation of wuat had been said, and it had been made in the must invidious manner. Ile had been some years in the House, and it had.uever been his practice to com ment either ha or out of it, so as in any way to give offence to any individual. He certainly had been in souse degree surprised by an observatiod made by the Hon. and Learned Gentlemaa, that his rt e tth thOlad be printed along with the Report: such language as bad been published in the Paper in question he had never used.— ( hear, Use!) , Mr. BROUGHAM was happy to find that the statement made by the Noble Lord had confirmed the opinion which be, in common with the House, entertained of his disposition. He bad not intended, by what he had said about the Noble Lord', speech, at all to convey any imputation upon him. The Petition was read, and laid on the table. Sir JOHN NEW POR should now acquaint the House, that Ittbs Habeas Corpus Susi:minion 811 l should go into a Commit tee, he et'ould move that thelbll bbould not extend farther than the id of December. Sir C. MORDAUNT presented a Petition from the County of Waiwick against the further Suspension at the Halseas*Corpus Act. The Hon. Baronet expressed great sorrow that his coo mom would not allow him to support I he prayer of the Petition. After a few words teens Mr.DUUDALA, the Petition was read and laid upon the table. SUSPENSION OF THE HABEAS CORPUS ,CT. The Order of the Day for the first reading of the Bill from the Lords, for Suspending the Habeas Co-pus Act, having been read, - _LordCASTLEItEAGU said no individual could feel more deep than he did the importance of that measure which he now considered it to be his duty totecommend to the House. He was sensible of the heavy responsibility which must fall on those who call for it, and on all hands it must be admitted to be a serious encroachment on the rights of the sub ject, during the time for which it was to be continued. It then became a question, whether the internal state et the country Wa6 such as to call forgo strong a measure—whether the ordinary laws were sufficient —or whether, if these were not sufficient, other mea. • sures, less strong than the Suspension of the Ha bras Corpus, ought not to be resorted to ? In argu ing en this measure, he protested at the outset against any inferenie being dawn, that Ministers, in forming their judgment on it, •were subject to any undue bias in its favour. He trusted that he was addressing an audience who were too fairly disposed, to believe such' powers would be called for it the Members of the Administration believed the Government of the country could sately go on without them—(Hear, hear.) Nothing but a sense of duty—but conviction that tor the safety of the loyal and, the peaceable, and for the preservation of the Constitution itself, they were necessary, could, he was certain, have made them consent to take upon themselves that ar duous responsibility which attached to a measure like that now under the consideration of the House. He hoped their past conduct was such, as to prove thee would not hare advised the continuance of the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act, if they were not sa tisfied, that of All the measures that could be resorted t.), this would be the most effectual, and might, as it would be used, prove least injurious to the people at large—(Hear, hear.) The course pursued by Mi nisters, in confining the measure to this 'part of the, kingdom, and in limiting to tinie•as they had done, must, he thought, prove to every impartial. person, that they were unwilling to oveierep the necessity of the case, or to apply the law when io force to any but its legitimate objects—the presentation of the Constitution, and the protection of the loyal and well disposed. He wished the House to decide on its adoption or rejection, purely from the tarts which were "brought beroie them. He protested against the inference that had been drawn, that to bring in a bill like,this was to libel the whole country, and to pre fer a general Bill of Indictment againstthe People of England. He did not call for this measure against the people ; but, on the contrary, he demanded it for them, in order to protect them in the exercise of their industry against the machinations of agitators, vihich were hostile to their interests, as they were to those of the country at large. The adoption of such a measure might alarm those who knew themselves to be guilty of treasonable designs ; but, in his con science, he believed the loyal and peaceable pan of toe community would feel no uneasiness about it, but, on the sontrsuy, would be guaclul for Use par s:ng or the Bill, which they would regard as a mea sure of protection. He argued at some length in opposition to those who were of opinion, that sup posing treasonable designs to exist, those by whom they were entertained were too insignificant to merit the serious attention of Parliament. Though hap pily the disaffection was confined to the lower orders Mild! he contended the danger was formidable.— lithew.al the lower classes of the manufacturers to be confident in their own strength ; to p3SSeit consi derable acuteness, knowledge of the law, and inge nuity to evade it. To the manufacturers he stated three designs to be in a great measure restricted.— They had studied precedents from the history of the treason, of former times, and it was not necessary in his mind for higher characters to take part with them to enable them to succeed if they were not well watched. They might at any rate succeed so tar as to cover the country with desolation for a time. He wished the attention of the House to be directed to two points—the consideration of the events which preceded the 15th of April might first deserve their consideration. It would then be for them to look to what had occurred subsequent to that period. This di vision of the subject, accerding to dates, he thought of some importance. Those who had formerly op. posed the Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill, might, he thought now, with the additional experience they possessed, feel justified in supporting the Bill for re newing that Act; but he could hardly think it pos sible that those who concurred with hint on the tor per occasion could oppose the present Bill, as the case fur its renewal wss infinitely stronger than that made out for passing the law now in force. Not only had addition conspiracies been discovered, but, in the late inquiry, the former conspiracies had been confirmed; and now to refuse to renew the Bill would give a fresh impulse to the traitors in the country, who would derive additional strength and mirage front the numbers now in custody, who would then be enabled to join them, and assist in the prosecution of their designs. He denied that the re. sult of the late trial proved that there was no treason in the country, though Gas forbid that he should ar raign the decision come to by the Jury. No person could, he thought, shut his eyes to this tact, that there was treason in the country —(separating it from the individuals lately on Bier deliverance)—as every thing that had transpired went to prove that tact.— Those who supported the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, at the commencement of the pram Session, could not iq his opinion refuse to vote for the , present Bill, supported as it was by such an accu mulation of additional evidence. He was anxious that the events down to the 15th of Aril should be considered separately, because he expected an at tempt would be made to create a belief that the con spiracies which had been formed, had been in a great measure brought about by the emissaries of Govern ment sent into the country for that purpose. Mr. Oliver, who was supposed to be the moving cause of all, he chewed, did not leave London before the 17th of April, to go on his first mission —(Near.) It was plainly seen, that an explosion had been intended with which he ci'uld have nothing to do. This would result from the reading of the second Report of the Secret Committee, unless they absolutely dis believed it. Three periods, it might be seen, were indicated, at whicb a an effort was to have been made, and at three several times the conspirators had brought their preparations so nearly to a point as to think of naming the day on which they were to proceed to ac tion. In two of these cases, it was quite clear that Mr. Oliver could have nothing to do with the designs of the conspirators—that no part of their proceedings could be ascribed to his exertions. That person had not been sent down to encourage the disaffected to riot and insurrection. The fact was, he had become incidentally posiessed of some information respecting their designs, which bel had communicated to the Government at a time when he was not known to the Secretary of State. He did not leave town till the 17th of April, and at no period had the treason in agitation assumed a more malignant character than that which belonged to it oa the SOth of March, when the destruction of Manchester was contem-1 platen. This was before Mr. Oliver was in commu nication with the Government. That plan was only frustrated by the arrest of the Delegates. With these proceedings, and with those of the 9th of March, Mr. Oliver had no connection whatever. He had never been sent to the country to encourage the di,. affected to commit acts of treason. It might be that the appearance of a person in the character which he assumed, that of a delegate from London, would have the effect in some degree to encourage the con spirators; but he apprehended the Government were justified, if they had reason to believe that such de signs were in contemplation, as they had been in formed of, to send down somebody to see what the parties were about. Oliver was directed to go there for this purpose, and not to excite those on whom he was to be a spy to any acts of a criminal nature.. The fact was be was applied to by a delegate from the country—a leading man and a well known cha racter, to satisfy himself of the spirit which existed where he had been ; and he was told that if London' would not unite with them, the people of the country were determined to risk a rising by themselves. Mr. Oliver had nothing at all to do with them before this delegate, and another leading man, introduced him to them. The person connected with the delegate had been about to leave the country, but understanding the effort was immediately to be made, he determi ned to remain, ip order to co-operate with the con spirators. Mr. Oliver was thee invited to go into the country, and on this he communicated to go vernment what had passed, whether he ought to avail himself of . the opportunity or not? He was autho rized to do so, . but no one had been base enough to direct him to excite them to acts of violence, and so far as Government had been informed. of his pro ceedings. be had not done this. Those who now complained that Mr. Oliver's conduct had been so very improper—those whose only object was Parlia mentary Reform, bad never taken Mr. Oliver by the throat, and carried him before a Magistrate, when be ventured to avow designs of a different character. It never occurred to them to do this, and his conduct was pasied quietly over. A; Nottingham it was clear ' that Mr. Oliver was not concerned iu the rising which it was intended should take place en Whit Monday, and which was afterwards put off till the 9th of June. He left the country before the deliberations of the 2.3 d of May, on the subject of the rising, sod did uut lust London on his return ell the evening oltbat day, after the discussion was over. What had taken glace, therefore. en that occasion, could not be brought home ro him. What Mr. Oliver had or had not done while in the country, it was impossible fur Ministers to tell exactly ; but this he (Lord Castle reagh) knew, lie had had no instructions to take the part he was repotted to have token. it was tint known that be had been guilty of that which was imputed to him, and there was reason to believe that his exertions had materially contributed to prevent the intended explosion of June 9. He thought the in formation of the man was entitled to considerable credit. With respect to the numbers, the delegate, who bad introduced Oliver, had given very large and magnificent reports ot them ; and the numbers stated by Oliver to the persons he was represented to have invited to rebel, were the same as those mentioned to him by the delegate. He entered his protest against the system of imputatihn on Government for taking the measurti., necessary to prevent rebellion. Were they to suffer it to take the field before they at tempted to counteract its effects ? lie thought that the contrary was their duty. All information had not been received from common spies, but many persons had considered it their duty to communicate what they knew. He blamed the attempt to throw odium on such persons, ;:s calculated to prevent in dividuals from coming for ward. The measure now proposed to be renewed had already rendered consi derable service. From the judgment of all Magis trates it had checked insurrection, and been more ef fective than any of the other measures adopted by Parliament. It operated as the House must have wished it. as a prevsntive to offence rather than as a punishment. It had occasioned a considerable de crease of mischief, and if continued would prove a sufficient remedy to the evils by which the peace of the country was menaced. Mr. PONSONDY ruse for the purpose of stating facts which would prevent the House from adopting a measure so vicious in its principle. If he should advance any thing incorrectly, he hoped he should immediately be set right by the other Gentlemen Who hail had access to the same information. It tie were to say that he believed Oliver suggested, formed, and first conceived, the design of an insurrection in the country, he should say that which he did not credit. He did not conceive that Oliver had first conceived the plan, but he had had predecessors in that laud able course—(:fear, hear, hear.) Who they were he could not tell, but a number of persons seemed to have been in the confidence of Government, and the Magistrates, with whom he was unacquainted. He should only name one, whom he had authority to name, as he bad been examined personally in the Committee, and his case had already been brought before the House—he mean: Oliver. The intended movements at Manchester had been stated on evi dence which had induced the Committee to believe them true. The names of particular individuals had been mentioned, but the information led to the know ledge of an association or a very different kind from that mentioned in the House—one of a more bloody and more diabolical character than had ever existed, but which did not seem to have the least political ob jecyn view—it was the association of the Luddiles.— It had commenced some years ago, and still conti nued ; and all the most atrocious suggestions which 'had been made at the meetings of the discontented had proceeded from Luddites, who bad mixed them selves with those assemblies. It was probable that their advice had had some effect; but he did not be lieve that the marl of the people had ever intended to engage in such . designs. Their only object was to induce Government to adopt the measures which they thought necessary for their relief. It was to be understood that the Committee affirmed nothing of its own knowledge. It stated things to have taken place, but gave no information respecting their causes or their chief actors. In the month of March last a person had come to London, calling himself a Dele gate from the country. He had applied to a man then in London, but now in America, saying, that the people of the country felt the evils of their situa tion most grievously—that they were tired of the Go vernment, and ready to throw off their allegiance.— He then asked what was the state of things in Lon don, and the disposition of the people to concur in the same end ? The answer was " that things were not in the same way in London, nor the people in the same disposition." The person addressed added, " that he intended never more to trouble his head on the subject, but would leave London and England it self." He had accordingly done so. The Delegate, the person applied to, and a friend, agreed to leave London for the country together, and having made the acquaintance of Oliver. consented to tale him with them. They quitted London all four together; but before they did so, Oliver applied to the Secre tary of State, revealed all he knew, and asked per mission to go with the Delegate. The Secretary of State gave him permission, and he went to examine the state of the country, and report to Government. Ia justice, he must say, that it did not in the least ap pear that the Secretary of State had desired this man to do any act which might induce others to engage in criminal proceediogs--t(Leed cries of Hear, hear, hear.) After stayingn while in the country, the per son first applied to sailed from Liverpool for Ame rica, and his friend returned to London. The Delo gate remained, and introduced Oliver to the disaf fected. as a man in whom they might place the most implicit faith, as a second self. He was received as such, and became accredited to them as the London Delegate, and consequently acquired high distinc tion amongst them. He remained in the country one month, for he had left London on the 17th of April, and came back the 17th of May. Appearing as the London Representative. he was frequently asked as to the disposition of the people, the number of friends which the disaffected might have in the Metropolis, their strength, and the assistance which might be ex pected from them ? These questions he evaded as well ashe could, and gave. the inquirers to under stand that he was not come to inform them how many friends they had in London, but had been sent by the London Conspirators to ascertain the strength of their friends in the country, and their disposition to join them. He stated that the Londoners would not start first, but that the country people . , must com mence the insurrection, and if 'they could stand for three days, then they would be joined by the Londo ners. Some of his constituents had represented, that in the Eastern Division of London seventy•five thou sand men were ready to rise, and in the Western seventy-five thousand more— z in all one hundred and Cfty thousand. nut whets asked on the oilijce;, he contented himself with saying, that about 7thooti had been assembled at Spafields, and were, n o dn i ,,, s it friends to the cause.—Could ar.y thing be more likely to induce the people of the coo ati y to acts of inset. rectioto as for a person woo represeided a; the Delegate from London, to tril them that die s country unlit rise first, and that the tnetor s weuld follow its example ? He did not charge Ministers with having Oven th.cse orders, but he chewed what were likely to be the effects' of the conduct of tk:s Oliver. Pe had internatt d this man himself in the Comtnittee, and had asked him—" When yon talk of sending 13 Londor to ascertain the dis positio n of the people, do you knout, or did you ever hear any soc:Lty or .Issociation there intended to co-opera t e with the disaffected in the country r Tne answer was Ido lint, and I never did." He asked hi m them, " Do you know of any Gentleman in town ct country et any rank and fortune who was ready to join and assist the corspiracy !" Tl.e sortie answer v.as returned, " I do not, and 1 rover dad" H a % the name of any person been con:mut:leased to Too as the organ through whom the disaffected in t0» . 4 might hold a cot respondence with those in the coml. try ?'"fhe reply was again, " I know of no such name, for none has ever been commanic.ved to me." This sheaved how things bad been worked up in t!.e country, and how despicable the tome of those pro. sons roust be, when not only no ac.cociation, but individual of any rank of fortune in the country was inclined to support them. This proved that ther e was no reason for making such an itiroad in the Coa stitution as to continue tor six weeks after the opening of next Session the Suspension of the Habeas Act.— That some disposition to rise existed in certain dis tricts was undoubtedly the case; but was that a rea son why the punishment should be ex , ended to all Englansl ? He did not think the measure proposed calculated to put an end to the disturbances. Le gislation adapted to places and to offences would alone be effective. It was incumbent on his Majesty's Mi. misters to sift out to the bottom that systemot Ludzism, to prosecute its members without mercy, and to put down the system altogether. Until then, the country would never enjoy complete tranquillity. It would net be sufficient to hang a man or two, but to pot slow!, the system altogether ; for those wretches had wrought their minds to such a degree of indifference, I not only to the property, but to the lives of others, that for a small sum, even as low as twenty shillings, they would bind themselves to shoot any individual whom they had never seen before. This was the first time, in the history of England, that bands of Eng lishmen would bite themselves to destroy their fellow. creatures. To suspend the Habeas Corpus, to ren der every man's liberty precarious, and subject to the will ct a Minister of St ite, would not produce the intended effect. It would, on the contrary, oenl to increase crimes, by exciting a stronger feeling amongst the ignorant classes kgainst a Govetionent that adopted such measures. And what gael would re. stilt from taking up a suspected character, and tinnier. him loose on the country six months alter ? It would be a totally mistaken legislation—( Hear, hear.)—The only thing I -necessary would be, to enact capital pe nalties fur those crimes to which he had alluded. He should now ask the House, whether it did nut appear that the insurrectionary proceedings in the country had been impelled by the appearance of Oliver, as a delegate from Loudon, and whether the necessity o'3 the measure was not lessened by the fact, that es , single association or individual was found in London. I ready to assist the insurgents ? In I S 1 2, statements infinitely stronger, and bearing a mere decided cha— racter of treason and rebellion, had been made by the Secret Committee, but the suspension s.f the Ha beas Corpus was not thought of, as it would have been entirely inapplicable. He was convinced that There did not exist greater necessity at present for sur rendering for a time the liberties of the country, thaa at that period— ( Hear.) Mr. LEGIT KECK stated, that the Magistratce r and those who were best acquainted with the local circumstances of the disturbed districts, were of opi , - nion that the only measure which could efrectinly repress insurrection, was the suspension of the Ha beas Corpus. He then vindicated the Magistrates from the charge of inactivity, and contended Oat they exposed even their lives in the fultilmcnt ot thaiti duties. It was not in the power of the ordinary laws to put clown Luddism. He maintained, though h* did not know him personally, that Oiiver's moral character was subject to no imputation—(Year, /mar, from the Umorition).—He then stated that the Grand Juries of Leice s ter, Derby, and Nottingham, had re commended the re-enactment nt Frame Breaking Bill, us the only remedy capable or counteracting existing evils—(Hear, he or, frob: :he Witio:iiien). Mr. ABERCROMBIE had n.ver heard a less convincing speech. 'lite Iloaourable Member bud dealt in assertions, bat witi.out giving any reason to prove them, or if he did, his se ason went directly against the assertions which he had made. Thus he had stated, that according to tin• opinion of the Ma gistrates, the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Art was the only measure which could prove effective, and then he added, that the cruad Juries of LOces ter, Derby. and Nottingham, had recommendet the re-enactment tof the Frame Breaking Bill as the only remedy to existing dangers, an.. that at the very time when the Suspension of the habeas Corpus was in force. This gave a forcible contradiction to the ne cessity of that measure. 41..; to Oliver, i.e was asto nished, after what had been he..rd of hint this nights that any man could be found in that House to says that his moral character was tit:impeached. He ob jected to intrustiug powers like the p:escot to a person against whom so many coilstitut'iial exceptions had lately been rated. He all aded to the case of tire Reading Jail, Lord Si•ini. uth's Circular, and the employment of Oliver. He maintained, that as long as Miristers suspended the Habeas Corpus brought on trials for cf,nsit uctive treason, the; , would obtain no Convictions, but would contribute to alienate the hearts of the people from their Govei tmor. Mr. BARCLAY cootended, th.it the Noble Lord had magnified the greatness of the evil, and dimi nished the strength of the laws ahead) , in existence to repress it. The Report alone was sufricient to prove the total imbecili:y of the?pers,,nb iceres:uteci .t; combining to overturn the Government. hk agrtea with the Chancellor of the li:scheT , er that the sLail.! of the cou f was improving, anti tfiGii p ;fit that that improvefeent wOula let effectively tonal& pa: I