Star. — London, England, 1822-03-26 00:00:00

BARBADOES TOUR /ER CENTS. Mr. CREEVEY said, that as the Ordnance Esti mates were to be submitted to the •proposed Com mittee, he was anxious once more to put on the Jour nals his opinion respecting an item in those Estimates of 16001. for Repairs of the Fortifications of Barba does. He objected to this sum in the Estimates, be cause there was a particular fund created to meet this expense by an Act of the Legislature of the Island, ra4sed in the year 1663. That Act provided a duty of four and a half per cent. on certain commodities, for, among other purposes, providing for the expense of fortifying the Island. The reason that the money was now claimed from the people of this country was, that this Barbadoes Fund was divided among Gentlemen, Ladies, and children of the higher classes of England. The proper application of the Fund had been stated to that House in the reign of Queen Anne, by a Petition from certain Barbadoes merchants, praying that the Fund might be restored to its original •object, which was done accordingly. The original purpose of the Fund had, therefore, been recognised by the House. The present practice of distributing the money ought to be altered ; especially as the dis tress of the country was so great as to have induced the Crown to make a considerable sacrifice for the public good. He was determined on a future occa sion (as he had done before) to bring the subject under the notice of the House in a specific shape ; and for the present he should content himself by moving as an Amendment to the motion that the Speaker should leave the Chair, That the Committee be in structed to inquire whether the duties raised by the Act of Legislature of Barbadoes Island, for defraying t:ie expense of fortifying the same, were adequate for that purpose r The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he should not enter into the argument of the question, as the Hon. Member had stated his intention to bring the subject before the House in the shape of a distinct motion. The Hoa. Member might, if he pleased, oppose the particular vote in the Committee. He (the Marquis of Londonderry). however, presumed that the object of the Hon. Member was merely to recor , i his own opinion. Mr. HOME said, the-object of his Hon. Friend was, to call on the Committee to consider whether the money bad or had not been diverted from its ori ginal purpose. In fairness he thought that the subject should be vat to the Commitee. Mr. GOUL BURN denied that in fairness the sub ject s'hould be sent to the Committee. It was nut a business for the inquiry of a Committee of Supply ; and, at all events, the Hon. Member could move to leave out the particular sum. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House divided, when there appeared— For the or'Onul question For the Amendment - Majority Q 4 - 14 - -.44 ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, the House was found in a Committee. Mr. It. WARD rose to move the Ordnance Esti mates. The total of the expense of this branch of the public service would be 1,200,0001. being 72,0001. less than that of the last year on the ordinary part of the Estimates, and 21,6001. more than that of the ex traordinary, on a comparison with the expense of the last year. Under that part of the Estimates called " the Unprovided," it would be seen that the sum was 30,0001. less than last year. Under the charge for " Superannuation," there was an excess on the mi litary side of 60481. and oil the civil of 932 V. It would, however, be obvious, that this increase was caused by the decrease in the body of the Estimates. The service for Ireland required a sum less by 15,0001. than that required in the last year. The whole sum t required would be apparently 105.0001. more than last year, but in point of real expense there was a re duction of 83,0001. A saving had been effected in the civil and military branches of the service, which he would describe very shortly, beginning with the civil. The principal offices belo , “:;ing to the Ord nance Department were those of Pall-mall and the Tower ; in these there had been a real saving of 62571. Under the head of Contingencies, there had been a saving of 1900/. and oil the expense of all the foreign stations, one of 73811. In the item of Re pairs, the saving was 28001.—50, that with a few minor reductions, the whole saving in the civil branch amounted to 24,3431. This had been effected by a reduction in the number of offices; in the number of persons who filled others, and in the lessening of their salaries. Last year there were nearly 500 persons in alid about the Ordnance, and upwards of 100 had been reduced ; so that he hoped the Committee would not think the Heads of the Department had been idle since the last Session. The number of persons now employed was 385. If this number were compared with that of the favourite year 1792, it would be found that the numerical strength of the Department had been decreased. In the year 1792, the number of persons was 359/. without noticing Ireland ; and it might here be observed, that several colonies had been since added to this country by conquest. , -- If the number employed at that time for Ireland, were added the number would be 414, being 29 more tl-.an the number at present attached to the Depart mut. The Committee must be aware that much I mmess had been necessary to accomplish the re duction; for it could not but be an irksome, a painful task, to reduce persons from a state of comfort to one of comparative nothingness, and especially when that were done without any fault of their own. Ile begged here to observe, that he had stated last year that these reductions were in contemplation. It was then said, why had they not been made before ? but the answer was, that the doing so required much consideration and discussion. The Master-General of the Ordnance had long contemplated a total change in the constitution, of the department, and was resolved to try the ex periment of introducing in the various offices checks upon each other. This had been accomplished, and lead considerably multiplied the business. Returns were now made to the principal office once a month, in , tead of once a quarter; ai.d this tell:a included a daily journal of the business done, and of the minutest receipt and expenditure. More business was now transacted than ever in the various offices, and }set the number of persons in them bad been reduced. In almost every office there had been reduction , , and others were contemplated. The long services of some o. the officers rendered it impossible to reduce them with any justice; and it was therefore proposed that they should be allowed to remain until death 'or retirement ; it being understood that the vacancies thus caused weronot to be filled trp. It was also in tended to throw on the Ordnance the labour per formed by the two great Departments of Barrack- Master General, and Storekeeper-General--(!!ear). This arrangement was undoubtedly in its infancy,l but it would be certainly brought to maturity for the public benefit, and he shoitid be happy if the; services required for those departments could be per formed at the Ordnance as ably as they were under their present management. He now came to notice the savings in the military branch of the department; and he congratulated the Committee on the change • of construction which had taken place; a change, to accomplish which the Earl of Mulgrave had gone a considerable way, and which had been carried, into perfection by the Duke of Wellington, the present Master-General. The Corps of Drivers had been re duced four men and five horses in each company, and the Drivers were not now under two commands, as they had been before. All the Officers of the corps had in some degree undergone a !eduction; and the total number reduced was 400. The recruits were for the future to be engaged as gunners as well as drivers--an arrangement which would be found highly beneficial, as it would render a distinct corps unnecessary. The sum saved by this part of the re duction was 17,0001. but, on the other side of the account, there was a small addition for pensions, and for allowances to Engineers, Sappers, and Miners ; so that the clear saving would be 16,0001. An im provement had been effected in that part of the ser vice relating to Reliefs. Formerly many of the mi litary engaged in this branch of the servile were detained many years in foreign climates ; a circum stance which was justly considered a hardship. But by an addition of 92 men to the effective force, it had been so arranged that two hundred should al ways be in readiness to proceed abroad and relieve. A decrease had taken place in the number and pay of labourers, as would be seen on a comparison of the present with the last year's Estimates; and a saving had been effected in many cases by a transfer of la bour from one Establishment to another. This might be instanced in the transfer of labour from the ordi nary to the extraordinary branch of the Department, and the transfer of barrack furniture. In the West India Nandi, in the Office of Clerk of Stores, there had been a saving on the item of half-pay. The whole of the diminution of the expense on the military branch was £74,000, and there were some articles of excess, in which he trusted the expense would. be refunded, particularly with respect to the expense charged to the colony of Demerara for forti fications. This, with some others, would make an apparent excess of £51,000; but there were reduc tions interspersed through the Estimates, which brought this sum down to £21,000. There was a slight excess caused by increase of pay to overseers and clerks of work: , , and allowances to sappers and miners, clerks, &c. =out:6lg to £14,000, forming a part of the sum he had mentioned as an excess. Should he not have made himself clearly understood oa this subject, he should feel pleasure in giving every information within his power to the Committee.— The last branch of the expenditure was that called eg the unprovided," in which the expense had been kept down to the lowest possible sum. This year it was but 9,841/. while in former years it had been as much as 40,0001. and 60,000/. From the charges relating to Ireland, the deductions, compared with last year's expense, amounted to 15,000!. and had been brought under the inspection and judicious ma nagement of the Surveyor-General. The Estimates stated the name, situation, and salary of every Offi , cer ; and as he thought it better in the first instance to give the Committee merely an outline of the Esti mates, he should reserve the minuter subjects for ex planation as it might be called for by the Committee. He intended to move the votes in the same order in which they were moved last year, beginning with the establishments of the Tower and Pall-Mall, and going through the different stations. The Hon. Mem ber concluded by moving a Resolution for 35,8421. for the salaries of the Master-General, and other Offi cers of the Ordnance at the establishments at the Tower and Pall-Mall. Mr. HLTNIE expressed his satisfaction that a change had been effected in the De2artment, and at the state ment which had been made by the Hen. Member, which he considered to he clearer than usual. He thought it, however, difficult to compare the expense of one Department with the other. He approved of the transfer of labour, but regretted that so much of the reduction was in contemplation only. He thought' the expense of the Barrack Board was unreasonably I great. 'His object was to shew, if possible, the com parative charges, and for this purpose he would take the year 1817 as a medium year of expense. He , thought great credit was due to the Department for the reduction of expense under the c. unprovided "' branch of expense. The reduction had certainly been considerable—(Hear, hear). —On the whole, however, he could not see that there was much reason for con gratulation. In the year 1792, the whole expense of this Department was 400,0001. in 1817, 1,233,0001. and now, in 1822, 1,231,000/. He was free to admit, that when the Army increased, the Ordnance must have increased also. The whole expense was nomi• nally one thousand pounds more than that of last year, though certainly the unprovided head of ea- Ipenditure had been reduced from 50,000/. to 9000/. —lt was for the Committee to consider whether this I expense was not too great ; it being admittedly three 'times more than that of the year 1792. In the year 1796, the Secretary to the Board had only six clerks; in the last year he had thirty, and now he had twenty three. The highest salary of any clerk in the Office of the Secretary in that year was 2761. now it was 11771. In 1796 the whole expense of that Office was 1 832/. and now it was 80001. In the Office of Sur veyor-General there had been a considerable increase lof expense. In 1796 there were fourteen clerks, and the expense was 21001. in the last year thirty-six clerks, at an expense of 10,6211. and this year twenty nine clerks, at an expense of 90001. In the Office of Clerk of the Ordnance there had been an increase in the number of clerks of from fifteen to twenty-three, and the expense tripled. In the Office of the Trea surer, there were in 1796, ten clerks, at an expense of 12001. last year there were twelve clerks, at an ex pense of 3000/. and this year eight clerks, at an ex pense of 2096/. This he found was the only Office which had been reduced in number since the year 1796. Having given these specimens of the increase, lie should teally be happy to sec the reduction sped- 6colly panted out. If the "sperm had been really • reduced, there must he (Mr. Hume) thought, have been a most unequal distribution of the service.— The principal increase in the expense from the year 179 d had beat in the establishments at the Tower and Pall-mall- He certainly expected that some atten• tion would have been paid to the Report of the Com missioners of Military Inquiry, which stated that it would be desirable to join the Pall-mall and Tower establishments. The Commissioners also thought that Woolwich was a better place than the Tower for receivin_g stores. They considered likewise that the office of Lieutenant-General was necessary only in war, upon a presumption that the Master-General might be called upon foreign service. They recom mended that only two of the Officers of the Depart ment should hold seats in that House; but now there were four who always supported the propositions of Government. Had the recommendation of the Com missioners been attended to the reductions would have been considerably greater in amount; but in the present reductions he thought the benefit of • the higher Officers had been consulted rather than that of the Public. in the year 1796, the expense of the Establishments at Pall-mall and the Tower was but 18,0001. last vear it was 51,0001. This he thought was considerably too large. If the expense were twice as much as in 1796, it would be amply sufficient-- He had expected that the Master-General of the Ord-. nance Department would have lowered his own salary: He had reduced the junior salaries, and he was sure they would have better borne that reduction had he ecommenced with himself. In 1796 the Master• Gen- ral received 1,560/. a-year, and now he drew 3,1751. a sum which he thought would very well hear a re duction of 1,0001. Looking at the other Officers of the Department, he was of opinion that 1,0001. would be quite sufficient for the Treasurer. The whole of the higher Officers of the Department ought to stiffer a diminution of salary. In 1796 the whole depart ment cost but 18,7061. whereas, in the present year, it was estimated at 56,0001. So inordinate a differ ence demanded at least a reduction of 10,0001. to be supported by diminution In the higher salaries. How ever, he should not make a motion to that effect until he heard upon what ground it was that these salaries were allowed to remain untouched,whilst those under them were not spared. He thought they ought at least to have the encouragement to support their re ductions, of seeing that those above them were not exempted from similar diminutions. If the Board would not, of their own accord, follow the recom mendations of the Commissioners of Military Inquiry, the Committee must force them to do it. Mr. WARD expressed his satisfaction at the tone in which the Hon. Gentleman had discussed the sub ject submitted to the consideration of the House— (Hear, hear). He should be extremely happy to give the Hon. Gentleman every information in his power upon the points where there appeared to be any dis sension between them, and for that purpose he would follow him as closely as possible in the observations he had made. With regard to the Barrack Board, he admitted that many and extensive reductions would be made, but he could not say that 18,0001. would be sufficient to support it henceforward. The Hon. Gentleman did not seem to understand the way in which he made his calculations, to prove the reduc tion of establishments on comparing the present year with 1792. Ile first took the numbers of la , ,t }ear, and after subtracting from them the reduction made i in this year, he compared the result with 1792, and a difference of twenty-nine, allowing for Ireland, ap peared in favour of this year. The lion. Gentleman's disapproval of the Lieutenant-General attached to the ; office he could not at all agree with. In the Board; of Admiralty the naval duties were entrusted to a Naval Officer, and at the Board of Ordnance the mi litary business was under the superintendance of a General Officer. It was true that the numbers in Pall mall and the Tower were greater. This was in conse quence of an immense addition of businessthrown upon these departments from reductions in the out-stations. The Hon. Gentleman had made a little mistake in thinking that the business of the Ordnance Office could go on with a reduction of 10,0001. Ile assured the Hon. Gentleman, that even with his physical powers of labour, he could not rival the application to business of some of the Officers. He particularly distinguished the Secretary to the Board, whose un remitting attention to his duty had rarely been equalled, and he was sure could never be surpassed. He did not even quit his office at the time of meals. The most scrupulous attention was also exacted from every individual in the office. The clerks in each department were obliged to attend at the appointed hours; and, as a check over them, the Heads of De partments were called upon to report the hours of their coming and going away. The Public had, in deed, not only the whole of their time that they had a right to expect, but even more, as that leisure to which every Gentleman in a public office was enti tled had been trenched upon lately. In his own office, and in the office of the Surveyor-General and others, he knew that the clerks were obliged to attend three hours and upwards beyond their usual period, in order to bring up arrears of business. Thus they were to be found at work there from seven in the morning till four, and till eight and nine at night. It was impossible, therefore, that more could be re quired from them, and if they took 10,000/. from the Establishment, as suggested by the Hon. Member for Montrose, the business could :not be done. By the new mode of conducting the office, according to the system of the Master-General, all that human nature could do would be done; but he was not sure that it could he carried into complete execution.— At all events, he protested against Hon. Members supposing, that by a scrape of the pen, or, as if it were by magic, the whole system of management of an Office of this description could be changed, and an inordinate reduction of expenditure effected. It was not true that the junior Officers were divested of that solace under - their loss of salary to be derived from the consideration that their superiors shared in their deprivations. The fact was, that the encotirage merit was much greater than he Hon. Gentleman could suppose ; for whilst five per cent. was taken from the minor salaries, to be returned in the form of superannuation allowance, ten per cent. was taken off those which were to receive•no such return. For his own part, his salary was 100/. less than what was attached to his office in 1792; but yet he would not escape the Bill of his Hight Hon. Friend (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer), and he could wish that the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hume) would inter- fire in that quarter on the ground of justice. The Treasurer, of whom the Honourable Gentleman had spoken, would lose Ist,. out of his salary, and he h r o e p dr cameou t c e e s d t any acigoaw l i o nn w s t e t h r w . e hr ea ( , : t 1 n a c Hn e do n m sop o uo r r e kaeb l e ea t G m r ac t i nn s should be sorry to see so exempla r y a p u blic ae reductions, being regarded e c • doti c r e t mm e rPe abouttnahnwist as gospel,. What Lord Moira, Lord Mulgrave, Lord Chatham, and especially the Duke of Wellington, whom nothing escaped any more than if he were in the face of the enemy all day long, said, must be taken as coming from more competent judges of the matter, than Gen ' tlemen whose opinions were derived from a cursory examination of a few days duration. There should be no jealousy about the size of the Board, as con nected with the question of diminishing the influence of the Crown in that House. The Board was com posed of the heads of the different departments of the Office, who received no salary for sitting at the Board beyond the amount of their allowances for their patent offices. And it was plain that the Board must be more efficient from being so composed. With regard •to the influence of the Crown, although five of the Board were permitted to have seats in that House, only three of them were there. He hoped the Hon. Gentleman, therefore, would see that reduction had been carried as far as it consistently could—(Hear). Mr. ELLICE thought that the two offices at the Tower and Pall-mall might be consolidated ; and when the Right Honourable Gentleman assured them that they could not usefully do so, he wished to know how the-House were to judge between his interested assertion and the declaration•of the Commissioners for Military Inquiry? There was one ground upon which be would support all the propositions for re duction of his Honourable Friend behind him. This was, when it were not satisfactorily proved to •him that the business of the different Departments had in creased in proportion to the increase of cost since 1796. That had irt been proved in the present case, and he. must say, that however painful it might be, he must support the proposition for a diminution of the salary of the Master-General of the a:dna:ice, in proportion to the increase in value of the currency since 1811. He thought 10,000/. might very well be spared, and if his Honourable Friend can ied it to a division, he should have his vote. Colonel DAVIES observed, that so far from there being any decrease in the Eqimates for the present year, there was actually an increase of about 32,000/. over the Estimates of 1819. Mr. WARD observed, with reference to what bad fallen from the Hon. Member for Coventry, that there was at present sixteen times as much half-pay to manage than there was in 1792, besides what increase of business had occurred from the union with Ireland. Mr. HCME said, that independently of other motives, he was most anxious to cake the sense of the Committee on the question of allowing the salary of the Master-General to remain the same as it was in time of war. He really thought that an eaam2le in the higher appointments ought to be set, and he should therefore move that a reduction of 10,0001. be made upon the vote under consideration. Sir R. FERGUSSON wished to know whether be was right in supposing that a reduction had been made in the Medical Department ? He understood that so many as twelve most efficient Medical Offi cers had been reduced to a very inconsiderahie ailow ance, whilst by a new appointment to the squation of Surgeon-Genet...ly the whole saving thus acquired was swallowed up. Mr. WARD admitted that, in consequence of the reprosentations . of that House, of the size of the Medi cal De:)arttnent, reductions had been made. But they had not been reduced on the grounds stated, viz. to keep the Surgeon-Genera: in his situation. The Master-General wished to have only one Medical Officer at Woolwich, but it was found in:po.>sible to induce any one to take the two situations of Director and Surgeon-General. The Surgeon. General, Sir J. IWebb,was invalided, and unable, ft cam asthma, to do hOspital duty in winter, and the Surgeon-General from Dublin was put in his place. Mr. HUME said, that it was the reduction of the Board that he had recommended last year. Sir.l.Webb had been excused hospital duty for a long while, and was, in fact, forced to retire against his will, to make way for the Gentleman from Dublin. Tl.. late Sur geon7General had retired upon full-pay, at 3/. 7s. per day ; the twelve individuals, reduced to 2s. per day, after long service, created a saving of 31. 2s. 3d. per day ; so that there was actually an increased charge of ss. per diem by the transaction.—The House then divided; when the numbers were For the Amendment 30 Againstit OS Majority in favour of the M0ti0n.....-65 The following Estimates were then voted : tor defraying the Salaries of the Officers of the Ordnance of the Borne Station, including Guernsey, Jersey,&c. Li 2,885 0 0 kir the Salaries of Officers of the Ordnance on Foreign Stations 13,313 0 0 :or the Increase of Salaries of the Officers of the Ordnance . - 23,495 0 0 For defraying the expense of Contingencies, Repairing the Storehouses, &c, - - 17,200 0 0 For the Pay of 57 Master Gunners, &c. - 4,258 0 0 For the Corps of Royal Engineers - - 40,795 0 0 For the Corps of Sappers and Miners, and the construction of Field-works - - 26,287 19 7 Fur the Roy.ll Regiment of Artillery - 24,868 9 2 Fur the Royal Horse Artillery, also the Royal Ilorse Troop - - - .. . - 36,954 16 2 - . . ~... _ For defraying the expenses of the Field Train - 2,62.4 9 2 For defraying the expenses of the 'Medical De partment of the Ordnance - - 6,860 16 0 For the expeine of the Civil Officers, Cadets, &c. at Woolwich - - 8,059 10 2 For Fees paid to she Exchequer - - 1,6.0 0 0 To defray the expense of Services performed by Officers of the Ordnance, nut provitkd for in 1821 - - For charges of the Ordnance, Widows' Pen sions, &c. &c. - 3,731 4 7 7 30,800 0 0 To defray the Charge of the Ordnance in Ireland 11,365 17 4 Mr. WARD then intimated that he bilonl,l not proceed far. ther on that occasion, and alloyed that the Chair .nap report progress. Mr. BEOGDEN accordingly reported progress, and ob tained leave to sit again on Wednesday. The House having resumed, the Report was ordered to be re ceived on Thursday. Mr. W A I.I.ACE brought in a Bill to repeal divers ancient statutes relating to the importation of good. and tnerchandize from foreign countries. The 1;i:I was read the first tittte, anti ordered to be read a second time on :hr tgtit of April. The lion. Member also brought in a Kill f o r t he encoliragen , Nt of navigation and comnwrce, by rerulating importa:i.m.—Reaa the first time, and the second reading fixed for April 19. Die lion. Member also brut ht in a 1101 to repeal certain Acts re lating to the importation of goods and merritandize.—Read the first, and orders cl to be read the second time on the .21ath of Apr.l. The CIiaINCELLUR, of the li,:it-'IIEQ,LIEIt brought LI