Star. — London, England, 1810-03-06 00:00:00

lOrs, a Cabinet orCabat to advise tie Iting,, and to I consult together. There wa s no nee d o f le4ining to prove this, and yet they were now asked by a Law yer and itt Member of Parliament, where was the Sta tute ? where, the Charter of the Constitution . ? Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox were now dead, and with them in ' the grave their profound knowledge of the Constitu tion. If the former were now alive, would he not reprobate the conduct even of a brother ?—(Hear, hear !) if the latter, he well knew, and so did the House, how the integrity of his mind would direct him (Hear, hear!). Under the reign of the Tudors our Constitution first sprang into form ; at first, the King was every thing, and the people nothing. Soon, however, the office of Secretary of State was recog nised ; then Privy Councillor became known ; next, Lords of the Treasury and the Admiralty, &c. The Revolution followed, and gave life and vigour to this mass. A system of official form has since been intro duced—a system of responsibility on the part of the Ministry, of inviolability on the part of the King. Mr. Justice Blackstone had noticed his two chief peculia rities ; his " perpetuity" and his " perfection." In ' any other country in the world, if our King's consti tutional perfection was mentioned, no doubt it would be laughed at ; but here the wisdom of the principle was known, and its beneficial consequences ; its transfer of responsibility to Ministers duly appreciated. The act of Lord Chatham went to destroy that principle ' , uu,d to institute an unofficial, irresponsible If : .r.Ol (bear, hear) This, if adopted, must destroy tnstitution. It was in direct violation of what ' every writer had assumed as the Constitution ; Black stone, Coke, Comyns, &c. Lord Chatham's conduct went Dot only to destroy official responsibility, but to set up a doable Government, the mischief consequent oil which needed no illustration. To prove the little harmony which existed between his Lordship and the Ministry, it was only. necessary to refer to the answer which they had given to, the Address of the City of London ; an answer so directly at variance with the Narrative of Lord Chatham, that it was plain, though he was on the spot, not one of them had ventured to question him on the subject. To excuse the act of his Lordship in presenting the Narrative as he did, it was said his personal privilege, and his im mediate command, entitled him. This he denied.— It was not true in former times, much less now ; not in those times when Marlborough 'conquered and . Godolphin planned. Gentlemen opposite might deny this ; they might ask for the chapter and verse of the Constitution, to all which he should only answer, that the law of the Constitution was its practice since the Revolution. The SOLICITOR GENERAL hoped that a hu -1 mane and patient attention would be given to a case, involving, as this did, the character of an individual, and including such severe penal consequences. He hoped all would be well grounded 'ere they decided, Ind do justice even to an absent individual. 'The act of Lord Chatham was a compound act : in what part ! of it was the violation of the Constitution to be found? 1 In its preparation ; in its presentation ; in its secrecy; i ( Hear, Hear, Hear)—or in its subsequent publicity ? For his part, he could not see the peculiar malignity which was said to mark this transaction ; he could see much not to applaud ; but he could see no impurity ' of motive, no males animus, which Alone the House 1 I ought to punish. The two charges made were se alley and a wish to malign the Navy ; but if he really had this bad motive, why did he wait from October, when he might have presented his Narra- i tive, to January ? Simply, because he only wished I. to prepare a defence in case he should be called upon; this was the ostensible motive, and where a good one ' was to be found, he thoaglat a bad one ought not to be searched for. But syjiy wns it secret ? It was plain, from Lord Chathatna subsequent publication )f his narrative, that the secrecy was only intended to be temporary, and how could a temporary secrecy hurt the Navy ? But, in fact, secrecy was necessary, lest his defence should be anticipated ; this must, in deed, have been his only view • for if he was con ( demised by the House, .and t he Navy acquitted, of what consequence to him would be a secret document lying in the closet of the Kin ? He was accused by the House at first killaYing his narrative before the King, and then of producing it; first of secrecy—then of publicity ; in such a dilemma no man could escape some censure. A Nbble Lord opposite (Lord Tern ple) had been very Warm in his reprobation of secret - influence. He confessed he did expect when his Lord ship first rose, that the House would receive much curious information on the subject ; he expected it . from the hereditary feeling of the Noble Lord—(Hear,` hear.) This kind of knowledge had gone in the fa-i mily for some time, even in the reign of Charles' the Second. It was strange. that a person of this very name of Temple should have discovered and disclai med against this secret influence. The Noble Lord might recollect, perhaps, a more recent occasion, on which the family had distinguished themselves in this curious kind of knowledge—(Hear, Hear, hear!) — Now, however, the Noble Lord lost his reason, his recollection, almost his sound senses, , at the idea that such influence eve' could exist ; he was in amaze, and ` every cooler reflection Was drowned in passion at the discovery ! The Gentlemen round him might perhaps have roused him to this fine-flwving in dignation; it was strange, indeed, , that Opposition always found out this influence, and Afiaisters always.' denied it—(A loud cheer from the Opposition). He begged pardon : the late Ministry did not deny it. —Np, nothing but this vile secret influence could ever have sent them out of their places—nothing but it could have deprived the nation of such a con stellation of merit, virtue, and talent ! nothing but it, joined to the cry of the whole country. (Hear, hear.) There was a Minister, however, who, by continuing 18 years in office, had shewn the world that genuine talent and unbending virtue could abash, and even silence this secret influence. He begged pardon for having dwelt so long on this subject : it was besiie the question, (4 laugh) but he was drawn into it.— J.A laugh.) The secret influence (if any) exerted by ,ord Chatham, had been that of a responsible ad viser, and not that of a man out of office, as the No ble Lord's friend opposite was. He cautioned the House to deliberate solemnly on this important ques tion, and - his own cor-iction of Lord Chat- .1 deny that the narratitecOntaleed impataskos . tisk a Privy t ouncilitio might attempt to poison the n avy, but he denied that the Nilde Laid was Royal mind, and that if tho§overeige should not be 2. by motives such as those ascribed to him by so Weak as to allow his mind to be poisoned, that the on-se:able Gentleman. It appeared that the PeitriConncillor should not be responsible for his at- Lor.: had been sent to execute a service which • ttirpt. F: - :t his part it could scarcely be necessary to ' , :: , t se performed. • To obviate the:effects of !"say, that he was not actuated by a n y f ee li ng h ost il e -sire he had, too hastily perhaps, prepared to the Noble Lord. He bad many reasons for enter .. ~ :Lion, and had presented it to that person raiidsig sentiments with respect to him opposite to ..jination he was most solicitous to preserve. those of hostility. If the charges preferred against 1: •:ird to the secret influence: which it..was as ! the Noble Lord had affected his personal and private hi,' existed during the whole of the present' conduit, however heavily they might have pressed he could not conceive how. it could be going tt-pon him, lie (Lord Temple) should have bowed fif t y years without any one pointing his finger lies head in silence, and only lamented their existence. e nturing to say " there is the man." During But the present charge was against the Noble Lord I ~,, Administrations of Lord North and Mr. as a Minister. It was his duty to suppo r t it. Wh a t . e no such discovery was made. He could not he complained of was, that the Noble Lord had not I re it then to exist. The public had long sin- given advice which might have been cognizable, I to Lord Bute, that he was the secret adviser of but had reqncsted that it might be kept secret.— i -own; but it was now a well known historical To the immortal credit of the House of Commons int so far from being the adviser of the Crown, he spoke it, that advice was rendered . nugatory, Bute complained of having been neglected by and by, their sense of public duty it had been • 'he present detection indeed was to him a core- brought forward—(4 cry of No, no !) Was it' the ' proof that secret influence had not existed in Noble Lord's own wish that it shoul :1 be brought ay ii: which it was supposed to exist; for other- forwitid?-4r . es.' . ge eI) If so, dared as he was to WAS it credible that secret advice should be'de- say, that wLicb be was very reluctant to say, why' I in twenty days after its communication ? had the Noble Lord stated what he did state in his user greater than that arising from secret in- . evidence ? Why hid he told the House at thosltar, :e appeared to him to have threatened the Con- I on one day, that he had presented 'it to his Majesty ion on the coalition of Lord North and Mr. Fox I at one time, and on another day that he.had Foment- Indy, the union of all the aristocratical.families :ed it at' another time ? Ai awful claim :had heist', is c ountry. He would not vote for the previous , made upon the House by the - Learned • Gem:ltem(' dual, neither would he vote for the Honor rable I, opposite—a claim which, he trusted, as Lag its the alem A ll's resolutions ; but he wished that the I British' history ehould endure, would be urged with ' ise w- , iild record on their journals some resolu- i success, when it was urged with justice. He had which would effectually prevent any pers,on in I urged the House not to visit this offence on Lord oval or military service of his Majesty, from ap- Chatham because he was the sou of William Earl chin, his Majesty with a narrative of his conduct of Chatham, and the brother of Mr. Pitt, in the for ty- other way than through the medium of the mer of whom the secret influence practised by the • axei authorities • , Noble. Lord had found its greatest antagon ist , and in r. BROUGHAM explained. the latter of whom the Constitution, vited by the ,ord FOLKSTONE, although he meant to vote Noble Lord, found its warmest defender. In the the res olutions, yet could not subscribe to all the name of those .illustrious characters he made to the ions of those by whom the resolutions had been House an appeal contrary to that of the Learned „e e l He believed secret influence to be a r., endemar ;he appealed to them to shew a veneration ' _bear, and he would not therefore vote for the for their memory by an assertion of their principles. ioliitilns on the ground of secret influence ; nei- Mr. ADAM said, if ever there was a question of , on the ether hand, could he subscribe to the importance to the well being . of the Country, or. of ions of those who defended Lord Chatham. Of vital interest to the Constitution, the present was a N.-ble Lord's motives; he could judge only by question of that nature—a question in the discussion :oncleet ; and that conduct appeared to him to of which all feeling of party: animosity or favourable i attributable to the motives ascribed to his Lordship - prepossession might to be relinquished. He felt pain- 1 the Henonrable !lover of the Resolutions. An. ed m the part wWch he was called upon to take, as it 1 murable Gentleman had asked, whether there Was hostile to a person whom he had often found, in I any thing clandestine in Lord Chatham's proced- do intercourse of private life, of most social and ami- ? He, in reply, would ask, whether any thing able disposition, and to whose intelligence and can- id be, as he conceived, more clandestine than that, dour in business he must bear creditable testimony.— :ceding ? The Noble Lord left his Narrative and The question was one, however, of paramount im iion in the hands of his Majesty for a month ; portance to the country, and as such, must be script then, for Ins own purposes, reclainis that docu- of all extra considerations. He was much surprised nt, erases a paragraph of speculation and discussion to hear it asked to-night, in a tone of triumph, by :rains to a second representation to his Majesty, 3 professional Gentleman, where was the written law I, when called upon by the House to state the sub- of the Constitution—where was the statute, charter, ace of that paragraph, declares that he does not or decree by which it was defined ? To this he miltct even its tendency I For such conduct he• might answer, that there were many principles ild not conceive the existenceof anybut bad motives. pUrely followed, which were not laid down in wri a Noble Lord's crime was in his opinion clear and ting ; the CO7llMOil Law, for instance, was unwrit ined. Not acting in his capacity as a confidential ten ; , but he would content himself by replying at ii•iser of the Crown, but acting in his capacity as once, that' the, Law Of .the Constitution was to be eGeneral of an army, he had approached his Ma- fonnd in the 'wadies of .the . Constitution—a prac lesty, nil had made a secret military report of his tice of which he. could not help considering the :onduct. He (Lord F.) did not know that he could' conduct of Lord Chatham a manifest violation, a di irodoce my precedent or any statute on the subject,' ' rest infringement on the Constitution, as enjoyed by nit to those who had a clear idea of the British Cm- our ancestors, and which we did not deserve any longer itution it could be necessary only to state the trans- to enjoy, it we pasted it over without reprobation. lion, to shew that it was a gross subversion of that That it was en infringement on the Constitution there institution, and if permitted to pass unpunished, was little necessity of any learned argument to prove, it ht lead to consequences of the mostidangerous de- the facts were simple, and the inference direct. Before :iption. In old times, the existence of a standing he.proceeded to the immediate question, however, he trmy wae considered as fatal to •the liberties of the 1 could not help alluding to the monstrous doctrine eople. In modern days that feeling, and the conse- 1 which had been delivered that night by a gentleman tent practice upon it, had much Mated. Barracks on the floor, (Mr. Bankes.) It had been said by him td been erected fcr the purpose of keeping thestand- 1 that persons giving improper advice to the Sovereign ig army from any..connection with the people. Uncles ! were not culpable, unless that advice was acted on. such circumstances, who could calculate the danger ' Where did he get such doctrine ? It was foreign to y that might arise, if a General were allowed to sepa- every principle of justice, and every maxim of the -te his militaiy and his civil duty ? A number' of Constitution—foreign to the earliest historical facts, reign troops were also maintained in this country, to the reigns of Richard the Second and of Edward ; ,the amount, he believed, offonrteen battalions p,- i foreign ladeed to common Toe. If this principle and the country had lately witnessed the extraordina- , were once laid down, the prpicipal ioqiiiry of our 'spectacle of a German Officer commanding a Bri- ! laws, the intention wouldAseCorne a nullity. On nli district. If the conduct of the Noble Lord were I what foundation, according to this doctrine, would , pass unnoticed, who could calculate on the still - the law of treason stand ? Would treason not be con greater danger that might a r i s e, if a foreign Gene- ! sidered culpable, unless the very act was compassed, sal, thus commanding foreign troops, were allowed I and the King destroyed ? It could not, by the approach his Majesty in a similar manner I Un- 1 same principle which avowed the intentional vio der these impressions he should vote for the resolu- I lator of the Constitution innocent, unless the advice tions of the Hon. Gentleman. svhich he gave was acted on. This was a most Lord TEMPLE de c l are d, that it had seldom fallen i important question ; and he would beg leave to, , his lot to hear. a speech so full of most extraordi- dwell on it. Suppose a Peer or a Minister approach-' nary and unconstitutional doctrine as that of. th e l ed the Throne with a petition to the King to suspend, Hon. Gentleman who had preceded him. He had ; the Habeas Corpus Act—suppose such advice had , lot conceived the possibility that at any time, and I been spurned and rejected by a good Sovereign, and much less at the present time, such a 'doctrine would. , afterwards discovered, (hear, hear,) though an injunction be broached. The Hon. Gentleman considered . the I qf secrecy had been issued ; would such advice coming conduct. of the Noble Lord justi fi ed by his right as aI to the kaowledge of that House, pot be loudly repro - Privy Councillor to Advise his Majesty. He also had : bated, and the adviser punished as he deserved ? ' 1 itl that the Cabinet Council was a :Jody unknown' (Hear, hear). As to the immediate question, all the " the Constitution, and which had ori , rinated in a 1 evidence which he wanted of Lord Chatham's 46guilt, 4 • Certainly it was unknown to tic e Constitu- all the evidence to prove an overt act against the Con do a, but would the Hon.-Gentleman contend that stitution and freedom of the country, he had—the 1 ? , ! Members o f it, ca ll e d as th e y were to act i n t h e narrative of his Lordship, and the answer of his Ma lang's confidential service, ought not to possess the ; jesty to an Address of the House : these contained : 01 )fidence of one another ? Would he contend that : facts in his mind full and conclusive. Why did Lord those who were to advise his Majesty ought AM 10 i Chatham deliver his narrative to the King, instead o f advise with on e anot h er ? B es id es , at t h e time of dse i to the regular person, the Secretary of State ? When dal in whi c h t h e C a bi net C ounc il originated. the! he came home indeed, at first, from Walcheren, lie r rryy Councillors were the Constitutional advisers of i did not find the Ministry settled—in some time, how-1 the King. The cabal was composed of four persons„, l l ever, they were—Lord Mulgrave was at the head of , anited on the pri nc ipl e of secrec y to' a dvis e hi s Ma- I the Admiralty, and the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo- . i l e st], without a communication with 'die Cabinet at ' site had, ant of his loyalty, accepted the Premiership aarge• On that occadost Sir William TetOple recom.i -.44 laugh.) Now, these Ministers, chiefly concerned ceded George-IL to take the ad v ice- of the.Pairy : in. the planning of the Expedition, had not asked Cluneil, and to overturn the , cabal ; yet this•ealsal.. from his. Lordship one single question as to the re !Pas adduced by the Hon. Gentleman as a Coestitn- suit Of it, no bad he (as he was directed to do by °mai jusfification of the Noble Lord's conduct. He r the Sign Manual while he remained in Zealand),_ .., .adduced that ag a i nst w hi c h t h e C onst i tut i on pr otes t- , made any voluntary statement through the orrice of Z -4 * adduced it as an email& for the House, and the Secretary of State. If this had been the case, the. -I an nurse far-the N o bl e Lord. The Hon. G entle- House would not have heard of the King, 's escrutoire Inan Wa s ; o f ,• • • th at k is lc. . opinion, m unless the advice given to !containing a private document instead of a public pa e.dif ' private of the constitutionality of a be - ~:aiesty were acted upon, the adviser eisild nnt,'per. As to question we et declared -onvi( o t P l u ni ... 'hetl. Against that p r i nc iple he (Lewd Tem- ; Cabinet—a cabinet, in fact, had always existed . : even ham's innocence , of any . ma . l.ign.'nt intention. wit c l PTk'testrd; he . thanked G o v he could not agree in the earliest periods of our history, in the time oft Mr. PONSONBY said, it seemed to be the general =Elution. 11nn. Gentjeman in his opinirms of the Con- ; the Plantagenets, the King had acted by advisers.— opinion of the Hon. Gentlemen on the orposlte side 4 .,.." 11 . The Constitution was not regulated by 'An o ffi cial system had not, it was .true, been then of the House, that the Earl of Chatham stood ac 40'9Zritten law --it was regulated by practice, and formed, but an official.responsibility ex i ste d. There quitted of havinil usid any secret ce. The g could be more contrary to its practice than was then a President of the Council, Privy Council• question s however, for the consider-4km of the House' . . „ Was, whether Lord Chatham had acted unconstlin . tionally or not, and - IA a way mischievous to his Ma jesty!s service, and to - the general interests of the State? The Honourabla Gentleman who sprke last had said, that he did not stand up to defend the No, Me Lord ; he confesSed his Lordship had acted im. properly; it was to be regretted he did not tell the House what the Noble Lord had done %k rt/Ilft% —The Chancellor of the Exchequer, too, allowed that he had acted erroneously ; another Gentleman said that his conduct was objection tble; and ano ther, that it was reprehensible ; but they all ne - glected to tell the House in what respect his Lorch: ship had" acted with such imprcriety. His c.ou cluct was not right ; it was indefensible ; it was reprehensible, &c. and why ? &cause it was unfontti- tional; and it was because they could not find anoth.r word in the English language, which tivould not to acknowledge his guilt, that they had made use of the words they had done. •An Honourable Gentle man on the floor (Mr. Bankes) had asked where was the statute which marked the. conduct of the Noble Lord as unconstitutional ? Nothing was so distinct as. the maxim that that which was illegal was unconsti tutional. Though the conduct might be strictly un constitutional,lcmight not still be illegal, as in the present case. Lord Chatham, as a Privy Counci11:1:-, as a Cabinet Minister, and as Commander in Chief, had certainly a right to an audience with his Sov,!. reign, but he had not a right to avail himself of his privilege to place in his Majesty's hands a defence of his own conduct as Commander in Chief, and there fore, as expressed most- properly in the Resolution proposed by his Honourable Friend (Mr. Whitbreau) had acted unconstitutionally. Nobody would attempt to denrthe 'privilege of a Privy Counsellor, and a Member of the Cabinet, of having access to the Royal presence ; it was to the manner in which that privi lege was used, in placing secretly in the hands of his Majesty, without the privity of his colleagues, for a sinister motive, the narrative alluded to, that Lord Chatham had acted unconstitutionally, and in di- rect abuse of the influence his office vested in him. There was another part of the conduct of Lord Chatham which was equally erroneous—that of requesting his Majesty to keep secret the com munication made to him ; it was another unconsti tutional abuse of the privilege of access to his Sovereig.' The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. n Barites) said, in order ta render an act unconstitu tiotal, something must have followed, some result must have taken place. So that no matter how vi cious, or how inimical to the interests of the commu nity, the advice given might be, something must be done before any notice could be taken of the circum. stance. Never, said Mr. Ponsonby, was there any thing so abominable, or so inconsistent with common sense ! Supposing there was a captious Parliament, something like The present.— (a laugh)—And that an individual thought proper to advise his Majesty to use his authority, and, like Cromwell, employ his sol diery to come down to the House and dissolve the Par liament at once ; and that his Majesty, with his known virtue, had revealed the fact ; was there nothing to be done to such a man, because, forsooth, his advice had not been taken, andelothing had been done? The argument was so evidently fallaPious, that it was scarcely worth answering. The same Hon. Gentleman obeserved, that the Constitution was a large volume, and had gone through a variety of editions, each of which differed from the former ; he (Mr. Ponsonby) would, however, advise him to read some other edition than that from which he had derived so much false. in- _ formation. (A laugh.) It had Been allowed on all hands, that the conduct of Lord Chatl:am was ob jectionable. If this was the case, was there no notice . to be taken of him, or was his delinquency m pass by as a mere ordinary transaction, unnoticed and un marked by the displeasure of that House ? It was impossible. Had the immortal Pitt been alive, he would have been the first to reprehend the conduct of is brother. The House was called upon to excuse, be 'pause the noble Lord had acted erroneously, but with no Malignant intention ; and this was afterwards proved by his having desired that his defence might be made 'public. What signified the motive? The act was done, and the House were to consider of that act ab stractedly. But even looking at his Lordship in the 'best light, did he present his narrative to the King to injure himself, or was it to secure the prepossession of the Royal mind in his favour. (Hear, hear.) If it was not for the injury of himself, the.motive might :be well understood. The conduct of the Noble Lord, bn viewing it both towards his Majesty and at the ar of that House was most unconstitutional. No thing could induce him (Mr. P.) to relinquish that word • his conduct challenged the severe censure of that House, and he trusted the House would evince their own sense of justice by passing such a vote,— There was no maxim so true as that the safety and in dependence of the country deperided on the irresponsi bility of the King, and the responsibility of his Mi nisters. It was these principles which characterised the British Monarchy as the best form of Government extant, and there never was conduct which struck so forcibly at theroot of these two principles, as the con duct of Lord Chatham. He did sot intend to deny the right of every Minister, if lie saw a bad Admi nistration, to inform his Majesty of that c:rctunstance —it was keeping that communication secret which would render it unconstitutional. His Majesty, on receiving the narration of Lord Chatham the second time, gave it to the Secretary of State to .be •made public. But why was not this done at first ? Be cause Lord Chatham desired it might be kept se cret, consequently he had acted in direct violation of the Constitution, and in opposition to the princi ples laid down. It was to the proper exercise of the Constitution that the Country owed its character, and stood so superior in the eyes of the rest of the world. History had given to Great Britain a superiority of Government over every other country ; it described it as far from cabal, it gave an air of openness, frank ness, and policy to the people, which rendered them exalted in the eyes of surrounding nations ; and this they owed tothe freedom and independence coeferred on them by their Constitution. In this country there was no smiling in the face and stabbing behind the back ; all was perfect sincerity ; and if difference of opinion did exist, it was o; my avowej, and fairly canvassed in Parliament or elsewhere. ( Hear, hear ) What then would be the consequence, if this act of Lord Chatham's was passed by with levity, or what L..;s could we expect hereafter than a repetition of the same conduct, probably attended by more serious curt sequences t Instead of the amble, frank, and honest . . k. • • •: I 1 ,..j not d: t h e nal I I sraLl able I rjs e..L . .se hat ge tor tilstd t. vent long litt, no telieve it :Sited to the Crow P i ct, tint Lord B" The pro the way vise, w 3 ;tcd 11 A &mg( f,aence of the c' questiv Gentler House tion, WI the nav: proachi: in any r conc! 1... r. I Lord for the ; opinionl support btv;-bea Resolut ther, of of i.tirn tit:ft N. -. 1.." s Nol be attri by the Fionoly was an . ? could proceet opiniOn he the . prey'm and, w stance recolle could I The deinet tdv"se theta ;e 5 tY cond prod butt stint ti • action Const might seript' army peopl glient had I ing a such that rate foreig to the and ti Ty spt tishd to pa. great :Pt ral, t to ap tier tl • tions Lc 3 to his nary 1- not c 0: mud be bi It (and ie p m . Baia is t d .d tio n , to the a ginJ - et cod rd thus Is, advi ,a itabl [y, Priv ea the -le unit ins rd l est ] ,th is T'' ng eft ,ed was i 1 i floc tick l ad be na tr'l Ina aid ed, be. Lle A bar ttit an : jic I