Star. — London, England, 1814-11-15 00:00:00

by the Noble Viscount at the head of the naval de. partment. He desired that Noble Viscount to at d to the situation in which he stood. A noble i n of his had stated that a strong impression res 0n ,.., the public mind of misconduct in the Ask ' in the prosecution of this unhappy war in whIR were eDgne_si! ,p..1,4.c Aq.ll ap.. imarnflo,r Aid 4. it.Vas It frcr-t6o evident rarbe dispistO3: - Woble Viscount himself must betimareofiregite =Willi the Noble Viscount was,.a statement of a verietysf.distineL faiii . iifilaile tileJge - Fint selk . to nee to tho . .lslptiee-) ' 'Hot surely the Isfokile tscheitt iencitee'pert that, ir their . Lerdshi 'Would )0 - 'l4r id - with the .nYr t i t • Ititement bit his' pert; wig* tße Vitt iir,..iskt ~t, . • lOtiiny which he 'bad prodUced; lima Otp.iihnediately • Vii'el.tcid in It (1 phcbet. ' the le Ir o know* hod. r ~, ?fed these irektoiri "as facta t 'w lei he was Erepasytl • liipreve. In Episeq . neece of - iS,liii,snNe .- relatiob • had stated a swag prima fade case ageout the eon duct of thenaval 'ilepattnient, testing not op vague tinuouri or assertions, which perhaps rn4ht be un fciunded,•but on the oaths of lionottrahle and intelli gent men, who were sworn to investigate the truth and declare accordingly. Their 'diclwation upon theft oaths was, that the loss of the flotilla On Lake Erie was owing to the inadequate eqUipment of the squadron. Stich was the caw, which, in the opi nion of the court:martial, had led to that unhappy. result. He was Willing to betteve, that Ministers would be enabled to shear tbat nab/ erne rested With them ; but, here was a strong j oriiiia fide case against them, on the authority of a Coort-martial, aqd to that an answer ought to be given. 'Then hie Noble Friend (Bathurst) said, that - his objection did not proceed from any appreliention • th it Ministers would not be able to shaw, that they had anticipated the supplies to the full extent in which they might be wanted. His objection, he said, tested on other grounds; and he had stated, that the evidence had not been altoge ther published in the newspapers and Magazines. But it ought to be recollected, that in this country justice Was administered with doors wide open. All the tri bunals, and especially in cases of criminal trials, were open to the public; and therefore, whether the pro ceedings of this Court-martial had been fully published in newspapers and magazines or not, the whole of the evidence must be cOnaidered as already completely public: Not a particle of evidence eoglo to be pro duced to affect the Character of an oi4eer except in the face of the werld 1. and Gov lnlrid that aqy evi dence should ever he produced befOre a Chuitonartial against any officer WWI* the intention thai:sucli evi.; decree shooed be keo 'secret. The whole, therefore; must . be • Considered as published . ... 'Ffiels 1 4 014 e '.- Frtind bad said , that • some hew facts n ight appeeil with respect to the case of General bark. lf •ifile • litid been Le ought forward - now for the 4tip t time , Owe. might be something in the objection t bus ifillativei impression the evidence before the* Court-martial was; calculated to produce had been produced already.' l That Court was held at Plymouth in the hearing 'of.l the navy and the army, and all the oacers about') • whose epinions arid judgment the parties must bare been meet anxious. There could, therefore, be tin ground in this view of the cue for withholding the papers which were now called 'for tsy hi; Noble rela tion. His Noble Friend then spoke of 'an ordet by Sir George Prevost: If that had been a secret dis patch, there Might possibly be time foundation for. the objection: but the paper was produced before the Court-martial. It was already public, and it was little less than an insult to the House cf Lords, to say that, from fear of publicity, a paper should not be produced to them, which had been produced before a Court-martial. The paper was disclosed to the whole world, and yet they were to be told that it would be ' a grievous hardship to disclose to their Lordships • what hat! been published to the army and navy, and to the world at large. With respect to the.letters of Sir James Yeo, this document was by no means con fined to his not an: a•cring the call made upon him, but related generally to the equipment of the squa dron ; and their Lordshipt were bound- to enibire whether the blame did not rest with tie Government. The effects of the necessity of eiposing.the 116tilla to such an unequal,contest Were 'most diiastrous, not only on account of thelbss bf so :Reny brava estficers and men, but on account of the general tape . nee which the unfortunate result had' upon. the .War in which we were unhappily' engaged with America. Ne good reason had them been stated for refusing the production of this document. It ought not to he pro duced, they said, because there existed.a possibility that the blame might be shifted s but that wacho Teo. sou why their Lordships ihould not DOW have before them a &content so material as this was. lie did not keow what Might be the feelings a the Noble' Viscount with respect to the •opposition made to this motion by his Noble Friend; but he knew what his own feelings would be if he stood in the Noble Vis count's situation. The Noble Viscount had stated a • variety of facts in his defence, and said that he was ready to pause. these facts, Mn. issue was tendered upon some of these facts, and the answer was ; ssve do not choose to join issue on one . of tbspi: Lord MELVILLE.—Ht • had rrOon to believe, that the Noble Baron must have eompleteli . i . sutt. derstood what had been stated.bytis 'NO* Frietld ;near •him. His Noble Friend did not say that there' *as any desire to keep back this document for the purpose of screening the Government. The fact was, that two officers wereirr.plitated, and the only objec tion was, that it might be improper to produce this document now, till it could be seen what these officers hat? to ,offer intheir defence. The proceediegs of the Court Martial on General Proctor would soon be te eeived, and then the objection might be dune away. But it was really 'ltalie that one who had p t cinis k eo to bring to the inquiry etnind'perfectlyimparfjafraa a judge ought certairtly to do, should be so anxious to decide befOre the *bole' case could be bought for ward. As fat as he himself Was cOneerned, be ra th er wished that his Noble Friend sliould'ivithdeatv hie op position to the motion ; but it certainly did appeer snore proper,' that the 'Myestigation should be delayed till they could have the whole matter before then.— This *as his answer tO ,wliat. the' f%To . hie &tree bask state d with respect tolishackirardness tot/Onio n * proof of the facts whick be End , on a former oeiaaies* *attired. But then 'she Noble Baron had 'aelitersg an Ills pocket test:WY:my. On this 'Out lif has] pre, dtteed nothing out 'of his pocket; not put key ; Ow& into. it. • He ha Stated Sew& AIR the ; Crqe!ra=.l went was not to blame on the' pit of th e supplnte, e i l wall that vAitgrlfOi At *it losar.t4 it. Acapcki . Whether he eonld nake,wd his assertion or not, i would If for theic r j ordsUPe to judge. As to the L ject joieundo Consider:oos, he thought it by the inost wiper "coprse to wait till they had e ihole hefore 't hetn. . 14id OtesIVILLE. 7 .-yhe Noble Viscount ap ; f irm - . F . to wonder that he who had declared that he would_ briqg to the ioqtriry the mind of an impartial .., ; - thould be anxious to decide •onpartial evi dence ; but the Noble Viteoispthad very much mis-' understoodliip and his Noble Axlation. He should bytrefy sorry to come to a division merely upon the .ry ground of this paper. The only object in calling for this document was to bring the very serious charge inirotved . in it, in an authentic shape, before their Liiidships. To that charge he wished to hear the defence of the Governracnkr...but be would not be sa tisfied-With the pocket evideneir f the Noble Viscount. The defence must rest on rs produced and au thenticated on their 'Lind s' table, The Noble. Viscount said that he had brought forward no pocket facts on this subject ; but lie had certainly said, and indeed now confirmed it, that the naval supplies had not only been furnished, but furnished to double t!le amount of the demand. ' This might or might not be a sufficient defence, but, in the mean time, it rested entirely on the Noble Viscount's statement. If the question had turned on the merits of the officers, it could not be properly decided without hearing the defence of both. But • the issue before their Lord. ships did not necessarily involve that question.—. There was no ground for delaying the inquiry, whe ther or not this fleet was well or ill supplied ? But, however r in order to spew the temper with which he was desirous to proceed, he would confess that if his Noble Friend (Bathurst) had stated, as the Noble Viscount had done, that the proceedings of the Court Martial on General Proctor were expected soon to ;alive, he should before have said, that be should have no objection to have the motion withdrawn for the present. Now, therefore, though not convinced by the arguments of his Noble Friend and the Noble Viscount, be would recommend it to his Noble Rela tion to postpone his motion, with the understanding that it should be brought forward as. soon as the pro ceedings of the Court Martial on General Proctor arrived. The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM.--In com- Tliance with the suggestion of his Noble Relation, he was willing to withdraw his motion, with the under standing that it should again' be made when the pro ceedings of the Court Martial on General Proctor ar rived. He hoped that his Noble Friend •(Bathurst), with his usual courtesy, would give notice when those proceedings arrived, and in the mean time he withdrew the motion, with the understanding that he should again bring it forward when the .circumstances appeared, to call for it. The motion was accordingly withdrawn. Lord DARNLEY gave notice, that he should to morrow make some motions relative to the Naval Adininistration. The Lords were ordered to be sum moned. TREATIES. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose, id pur suance of his notice. He begged leave to assure Noble Lords, that his addressing them on the subject resulted froth no imaginable Wish to give unnecessary inconvenience, from no pertinacity of his own, but simply from the feeling that he was but doing his, parliamentary duty in calling for the parliamentary grounds of measures which should not be suffered to pass into precedent without the most vigilant atten tion. Bat if ever there was reason for entering into the fullest knowledge and examination of a covenant made by Government, it was in the present instance, when the Treaty was not merely one entered into, and waiting fur . the periqil of its use, but when it was, and bad been fcr some time, actual in use.— This Treaty was peculiar on other grounds, such as that of its- being founded on a state of things utterly past. It was formed on the Treaty of Schoenbrun ; it was formed in the contemplation of the existence of that greed power which we had seen so lately extin guished ; it looked to the reign of Bonaparte. There was another peculiarity—the enormous expense with which its provisions were attended. The objection to the production of -this Treaty was, he understood, its not being ratified. He could see no difficulty in the objection. It had been passed.over already in both form and substance. In form, in the instance of the American Treaty, negotiated by two Honour able friends of his, five or six- years ago it was laid on their Lordships' Table, though the ratification of the American President bad nut been procured. As to, the substance, it was true, that there might be de lay, when: there was a fair doubt of final ratification, when subsequent differences had arisen, and other causes. But hoe there were none. This Treaty was not arranged by Ambassadors or Deputies, but by the Principals themselves. If a treaty existed, call ing on the country for heavy expenditures, it was, at all events, fitting for Parliament. that must provide for them, to know something of its grounds. Yes, if any thing could add to the duty of parliamentary vigilance in the case of such great public measures, it would.be such enormous demands on the public purse. So gar as had yet been ascertained by ac counts produced, the .excess of naval and military expenses for the last year was not below thirty mil lions. This extraordinary addition to the contem plated burthens of the country undoubtedly called for some enquiry into the mode by which it grew out of our Continental System, and what was to be for the present and Use time to come the nature of our rela tions with the Continent of Europe. How these bur. theta were to affect our internal concerns, must mingle in the interest of the question. It was im po4tible not to look to the new state of our manufac tures plunging into competition with every other country, end yet forced to struggle under such pm , sures. Ireland was not to be forgotten, whose finances, as it was said, were not more than ale ' quate, with all her efforts, to her own expenses. A question strongly connected with all this was the use that was to be made of this influence, paid for as it was. It was impossible not to fix a powerful curio eity on the'proceedings of Congress. He of course ,eapected to have no detail of its objects. He asked 'none from the, Prince Regent's speech. But consi dering the grand part which England ought to sustain at that meeting. he certainly did expect to find in the speech, those ptin Iples explicitly and fully stated on Iwhich we were :o conduct our share of the negocia. titan. Of the Congress, as he knew little, he should styliule ; but it was impossible to- shut owes ears wholly to the rtimottrs that wee pass*, 0401eltetta es of aggrandi sement and change were announced which forced mes s attention. NMI heard something of not merely the - destruction of the lodependent ,States of Italy, of Lucca, Genoa. and others, but even of alterations in thtioteaior of Germanys.which ye count not sufficiently deprecate. Their Lordships had for many a year rearan to regret that European crimes; the partition of Poland . There were, perhaps, few of any party who would not now ascribe the original calamities of the Continent to thee partition. Theyl all knew what even the latest results were of its being, to use the French phrase as most barbarous .in its sound as in its meaning, dare/60,44=4. .It wee left with its great military population for the purpose* of the first military adventurer; for any man that' like Bonaparte was inclined to use its• resources.... How it had served him was now not unknown and it conveyed an idea not unprofitable, if wisely felt, of its resources for war, when their Lordships would know that Poland, in the last war, even after all its losses and privations, gave no less than from 80 to 100,000 soldiers for the havoc and misery, or wlete might have been the havoc and ruin of the Con tinent. But that war bad taught us one great lesson. It had taught that the defence of national tranquil lity was to be found in the local affection of the popu lation to their country and government. To what was at length the deliverance of Europe to be as. cribed ?To its fortified places—to its strong holds ?I No : they all sunk—ethey were all broken down, and swept before the invader. To its armies ? No : the disciplined &trawls of the nations was undone—,the system of the most military kingdoms was prostrated at once. And what restored the Continent ? It was that spirit of local affection which made every Ger man Gentleman an Officer, and every German pea sant a soldier. There was a time, not long since, but nine months ago, when the great powers were alive to those considerations: when, in that proud day of triumph. the proudest part was their recognition. The pledges then given ought to be strong in every recollection : he could point out even the day.— No farther back than the IGth of March he found them disclaiming all views of aggrandisement, and this not as to France alone. Their declarations went on to state the impolicy and injustice of attempting to unite nations whose differences of custom and feeling could not admit of association with the neigh bouring natiep, even in centuries. His Lordship continued—it was time, after our experience, to look to a higher standard than we bad hitherto adopted. We must look to the natural. rights of nations. Of all the Powers of Europe assuredly England was that one most called upon to stand forward in the assertion of that standard. At present how much at variance with it were the rumours scattered abroad of changes not merely embracing Poland, but interfering with constitutions already established ? For instance, Saxony. He would not now speak of her services, nor ef the important part acted by her in the thirty years war, nut in the struggle of Maria Teresa, or how largely she had contributed to the general civi lization, or how happy and numerous a population she sheltered. She was now to be crushed. Lusatia; now discovered to be a new acquisition ; it was one of 300 years-back—was to be taken from her.— Lusatia, the gif: of Austria for services done to her, was now to be dismembered by the act of Austria, and Sax o ny to be abandoned to another Government. He hoped it would not be assigned as the Cause or this, that Saxony had taken part with France. If that were the reason, these would be a quick end of all the secondary States of Eut ope. If the . great men who constructed the treaty of. Westphalia, had thus done, where wotlld have been the German constitu tion ? What would have become of Savoy long since ? But which of the great Powers on the C9ll6lll:fit was not infected with that alliance ? What was to be come of Austria that had joined the Continental sys tem, and embarked in the war against Russia ? But look, above all, to Sax‘iny. It. was now known, that before Austria had declared, Saxony had entered into a secret treaty with her, by which she was to join thr Austrian arms. Bonaparte entered Gtrrnany.— Saxony was overrun before Austria declared. Saxony was unassisted, and in military possession of Fraisce, after the battle of Lutzen. The Saxon King was forced to return to his dominions for the protection of the people, and his submission was without a single attempt on the part of Austria. But look. to the great day of German triumph—the battle of Leipzie.— Look at the services of the Saxon troops while the conflict was still doubtful. They came forward con fiding in the declared principle of the Allies, and we know how much they contributed to turn the day.— Would they have done this, had we said to them, we are going to extinguish your country ? It was on grounds of justice and respect for national rights that we could alone hope to-slot:lin the pet mance peace of Europe. A resolute and unrelaxing adherence to such principles would put into the hands of govern ments an instrument more potent for public•safet) than any oilierthat could be devised. Europe might be now quiet, but who could answer how soon its quiet 'sniaht be disturbed ? Or what enemy might. not arise—or whether some great military geittus might not again start forth to take advantage of the general discontent, or whether even Europe might not again see that extraordinary being; who was nov. exiled to Elba, coming forward to take another eagle flight, for power—coming to display " The terrors of his beak, and lightniogs of his eye." His Lordship here regretted the length at which he had been forced to trouble the House—he spoke from a sense of Parliamentary duty, when great burdens were pressing on the country ; when heavy demands mere about to be made—with an army to maintain on the Continent—with the drain of an American war—with the competition of foreign industry and cheapness threatening our manufact ores. Ile could not sit silent, when the question WAS now tu those difficulties. For the purpose of taking the first step, and informing their Lordships of some part of our situation, he should now move for —" copies of the engagements entered into by us with foreign Powers, for the maintenance of troops on the Con tinent." The Earl of LIVERPOOL began by observing, that there was much in the speech of the Noble Mar quis to which be must refrain from adverting at the present moment : not that he undervalued Any one' of the topics there introduced, but a fitter time for ex. planation would arrive when it would be the duty of thp,Princeßegent's servants to state at the saute time what they bad done, and the.principlcs on which the' had acted. 'He thought. that the tiewiliesia .* %it!) him, that much could not be ,eiri e ree.apareeo i of the topics which the Noble Motiule bet ;umbra; , upon,without materially affecting hose hea r were now under disiussion in th Congress of LIMP? peso Powers. He trusted also he eliouW be .able to, chew that the object of the Noble Lao!. is meserig the -present edsizets, ' , could be suCientjwiriewit,iiir another though less forinel way ; .thotigh -he et ee aa first sta•P some of the prominent circumstaocee which occasioned our keeping a large force on the Coati. nent in British pay. When the Allies entered Paris in the spring, one course which they might have per. sued was, that of Ageing an armistice,, and leaving 4 general peace to b' settled at a Congress,. to be held at Vienna, or any other convenient place : but they adopted a different course, and one which he thought was marked with much wi4om. They determin e d that no time should b! lost in . *titling the pe a ce of Europe with Trance hetsel; and that whatever points remained for future dettlemeut betsees the other Powers of Europe, slionld be adjusted sk e r. wards, leaving none unsettled as for as whited to France in particular. Had the Allies, while in Peril, adopted the plan of an armistice merely, it was q u i te plain that, withdrawing their armies to the froni..re; they must have these kept them np . to their full amount ; and even though peace was signed, he thought it must: be obvious that there was a beeessi t o similar in kind, though not in degree, for keeping op a large military force. Considering the etanaulsiens with which Europe had been torn, it seemed to grow oqt of the very nature of the caste that the Al:ire, eie ther by a tacit or open understanding, shield mein.. tain on foot a powerful body of troops. Under them. circumstances, wculd the Noble Lord, or any one eke„ Ileac recommend/1 that Britain, looking to ecoocesy • 'emir, should withdraw the whole of her force burn ( the Continent, and leave the other Pewees to theme selves. The argument not, llowever,re r : r 11 c,i upon general grounds : there were special s which every British subject felt his interests deeply involved; for whatever diversity of (Tinian had ex isted as to the degree of our interference in continental affairs, there never had been any difference of epironn as to the importance of the independence of Heterad and the Low Countries, to the interests of Britain...-. He recollected Mr. Fox himself, once, when the sub ject of neguciation was debated, declaring, that if there was any chance of regaining or defending tire Low Countries, no exertions ought to be recknoed too great, and that war ought to be continued fur that object alone. When this, then, was one of the very points which required to be adjusted, would any Noble Lord have asked Ministers to bring home our armiei, and leave it, as well as every other great interest, to be provided for by our Allies exclusively The pile licy, indeed, of maintaining a force on the Contioeot, under such circumstances, was prior and paramount to the actifel engagement to that effect; andarry Mr. sister would have been pronounced criminal by his country who had not discharged this great duty. lie Thad now to assert, upon the ground of expetience, that the keeping up of a British force in the Nether., lands had produced a beneficial effect. He copld ape ,peal to thahundreds of.persone now in London, and elm had visited that part etfAbe Continent, whethef.it ' had not had the effect of conciliating and coneoling the people there, shewingthem that we felt an interest in their welfare, and shteting.thena that we %newel nee give up the prom-eta/it of those who-had at all times shewn themselves atucitid to ibis country, He had next to observe, that atout the end of June las., a treaty, was concluded, by. whit!) the Allied Power; did agree to keep up a specified force, far the main tenance cf tranquility on the Continent. When tire treaty with France was discussers in the late .session, no objection was madcfmni anyquarier to a Ileitiili force being kept up with. this view. The vote of certelit of last session, which naturally.afforded an opportu nity of attacking ur questioningthtepolicy,paseschalas without calling teeth any remark; though on mos iog the ad.lress en that. setijeet e . onthe ',Nth of Joie, he distinctly recollected his having stated that the voce was called int. partly on acentmeof the elonerte can war, and partly to suppriet• a British fere: on tier Continent, until the negotiations at Vienne were brought to a conclusioie ale just now , ' weever , Collected, that this vote did not pees without saw a& 'creations from a Noble Barone, not now in this come- ' try (Lord Holland): though they were SO link of a hostile nature that the address was adopted arena Li. soutane. that the Neble Merquis complained, thatahis measure of policy exposed the country to immense Is. pense, and urged, that Perliesreet had a right to fell iefonestion on the se l . - ject. He aweed with the Nee ble Lord, that,the House and the Country were tied to ample infocmaCon, both as the amount of the force employed aoll the extent of the expenditure created. There was no disposition oa the part nisters to is ithholcl the convention/ flimsily's.; left as they had. not art undergone theforrnelitoe f rato ficasion,ire trusted abet therr Lordships vstlrhe stir tied for the present with their substance. He was{es, pared, %shoed* roper time artiveJ, ee defead the* Policy, and felt conviacptabat Cie, bad alreicly en. &iced the must heneficieleffects. Lard GRENVILLEIdecIeted, that PO one WS. irss eraposed thin bitnielf oloccupy their Lerdsaipat tires With a 41,scussion.aboat forma, wizen there e as a prospect of obtaining the substance ; but he cool' conceive no reason why the address, es at poser w"ded. 6ll4 >uld Or't Pau, as the Prince Megenteniela reply, that he sould give directions for layiee nu' substance of the c ,nventions before the Heuer, ce documents themselves not }et having gone threat) the regular forms. After saying thus much, he (Ler 4 Grenvide) was not aware that there remained 261 thing farther to debate upon; but the house sea# probably allow 'him that opportunity of styieg a words On some of the topics cornected with the si r ject now before Vein. And, in the fi rst piece, it ea' appear to him that the constitution of the ceeeff; reqnired that a measure so stupendous as that le maintaining an immense British army on the conti nent in time of peace, should have been distinctry. communicated to Parliament by the Crown; e ci that, with ell due respect to the Noble Lord, what either he or any other Minister might have Said in 11 : 1 own person in that He tse, could not be cnnsidere‘i that constitutional information which Parliament a right to expect. It might be doubted, also, Wk ther there was that unanimous feeling in the eotiewr which the Noble Lord seemed to intimate, •at tir policy of the course which was pursued. The Ni sll Lord bud uisi aoutething op, the ;node in veltitt 14°