Star. — London, England, 1810-02-17 00:00:00

'err otost tii,limited l cki"fi a , se. expres s ,rs scrim thinks, str ongly position 0 to st vote, su fficient tae House it mot fon ? justify Pa Pr e P sed year to L heirs in s This prot . 0 Lord ] o ,ion that (Hew, he , upon Lo c i st ly the (Near, he sett led up crombY• he the di i hi, intent t invidiottS e comparisi j, he could b could ha is strength ~ 2nd whic defence n to proPo' ▪ could he intended nt sisient n , rewardin n would th , a contrarY of opulf Mast hal vh Peerag e ' be made • 'WAS at a e;n110M) nen the set tl t a shoe h a i....nciph iereNt. lk stew cal fa hat to I the pub' extition dividua 0 citemen tt , pruspec tl upon ti stitficiei cisiun i F .: , ion, tl std tho ind Du . inCOUSI tor mevst ic.. tee Trl trespi h the Of an Per aJ free TON, ; nce sion, On tit. ?Ir. .nc c) T t he i tlta voic ishe degree ed compa chi Lake, j es t and th f ti torten iver «l wit: nan, not to marke tsa names st a ,concei st di c4ll fi hzapec nd ing hi! s- Mr. of 1 t° npc y h 14. , ved o F Hon° rant chcqu as w sion v tarsi Maki :h h• and mi lore, sirn me fiom casi( from n(r aPrei ae ti hem, not °lt'll he :la I)inigll'tt tons pr o toe n look the 1) and did e ljng yiar tr,& late sick as elf the I the g this rim) eng; ertai ced of , tout 1 1l in a daj beer alrea ve? Ern as that by vi lied abo ingd. va r the rag le g. tig i F m . got s uch CO r ory tit .nal mark of his Majesty's favour, and the , e 'd g ratitude of his country.—(Hear, hear, Looking, therefore, to all these considerations f i . also to the vote of thanks, which had been tint House, and which must be considered iressive of its sentiments, he could not suppose 'ins objection to his motion. The vote of h e must admit, had encountered some oppo -et the general sense of the House was so in its favour, that those with whom the op originated had not thought it right to come y, conscious that their numbers would not be to make any impression on the House. If therefore, did not disapprove of that vote, re was required as the foundation of his mo 'as there an instance upon record that would 'arliament in refusing the grant of the pension ? The amount of that pension was A*2ooo a Lord Wellington, to descend to his two next suc cession on whom the title may devolve. vision was no more than had been granted Lake ; it was precisely the same as the pen . had been granted to Lord Hutchinson ; loan ) , isely the same as had been settled ',ord s 6 , . can (Hear, hear, hear, hear) ; pre te same as was given to Lord Collingwcod— hear, bear) ; precisely the same as had been pen the relict of General Sir Ralph Aber (Hear, hear, hear, hear.) Whatever might lisposition of other Gentlemen, it was not Alan nor his wish to take upon him the is and ungracious office of entering into idle sons; but if the task were imposed upon him 4 assure the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, that he have no cause to shrink from it. Upon the of the instances to which he had adverted, ich were five in number. he should rest the of the proportion of pension which he meant Many other cases, he had no doubt, produced in support of the amount of the frrant which would shew that it was ton t, s eidi the the uniform practice of Parliament in ing the services of distinguished Officers. He left' any Gentleman to shew any case to the ; unless, perhaps, in the instance of officers fence, to whom the amount of the provision am been of less value than the honours of the Upon what ground any opposition could le to the grant of' the Pension in this ease, he a loss to conceive. Was it on the ground of ty that it was to be sensed ? Were Gentle ten prepared to say, that on the occasion of yrvices, such grants as that under tonsidera mold be refused upon such a ground ? What le of narrow economy ought to be suffered to he grant of such Pensions and Rewards, as ilculated not alone to recompence past services, kindle an active emulation in every branch of tblic service, and call forth the most strenuous ms and ambition of gallant and enterprising in ials ? Nothing could be a more powerful in na to zeal, activity, and exertion, than the 2ct of such distinction as had heen conferred Lord Wellington. But the bare title was not , nt, unless accompanied by some adequate pro in the form of a pension. To withhold the pen therefore, he contended, would be injurious to idividual—injurious to the public service, and isistent with the justice and liberality of Parlia a. Having said enough to impress the commit with the, propriety of the grant, he should not .)ass longer on their time, but move, es That it is pinion of that Committee that a pension of £2OOO mourn be sealed on Lord Viscount WELLING.. and on the two next heirs to his title in succes- the question being put upon this motion, HOWARD rose to oppose the Resolution. Honourable Gentleman spoke in so low a tone ice that we were unable to hear him with any !e of distinctness, we understood him to draw larcrins between the brilliant successes of Lord Lord Duncan, and Sir Ralph Abercrombie, she military conduct of Lord Wellington. He tided that the battle of Talavera was not attend ith any advantage over the enemy, and far ink . - any of those immortal achievements which ;ed the career of these brave• officers, whose !s he had quoted. Added to which he did not rive the result of that battle was such as to for such high honours as those whichhad been NI en Lord Wellington. He concluded by declar is dissent from the motion. CA LC RA FT observed, tbit he.feh it his duty ipose the Resolution, in which opposition he be :d the whole country would support him. The mutable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Ex ucr) had stated the principle on which the pen was to be granted, to be-the circumstance of his :sty having granted the title to Lord Wellington, that persons were raised to a similar dignity be , and were granted a similar pension to support tile;t rank. He also stated, that he would refrain flop) ttmparisons, although he would not shrink from such a step if it were requisite, from which it Treated the Right Hon. Gentleman did not seem ing to admit there were any material distinctions tween the services of Lord Wellington and those lSir Ralph Abercrombie, and the other characters 'tad (rioted. He seemed to forget that the exer is of Sir Ralph Abercrombie were attended with most brilliant victory over the enemy, whereas in battle of Talavera there was not one single cha e:is!.;•: of victory—( Rear, /sear.) He would ask, Lord Welli ngton a d vance ? Did he not retreat ter the most disgraceful circumstances, leaving his to the mercy of the enemy, and leaving dead on field one fifth part of his brave army ? Could be called a victory ? No ; it was a rash forced ;agement, in which Lord Wellington was redo to the dreadful alternative of making a disho wable retreat or being obliged to fight ; and hay at length determined on the latter, if it had not been for the steady conduct of the troops on his the Spaniards who protected that flank, the - itish army must have been annihilated ; and after it circumstance, would any Gentleman say it was yictory deserving of the distinguished honours now !bolt to be conferred on the Commander ? It !as easy, however, to see the source of the measure-6. m.ecs,bject of those honours stood in a peculiar situa he wits connected with Lord Wellesley, whose Sod tv i..hes Ministers were a nxious to gain ;he was also o rinectea with political men, and was himself apolitical. _` 4l4 acW ; these wve i he circumstances which Mi. wa n% • . had is Mx; they had sought E,b4 fowur of Lord Wellesley I - taiStd IkaiNoVect, he wished them. joy o f their aiatysitlion (ts atr ia) . the House looked back to the military histor y oi,_ country, there could not be a single instanfoustd-in which a pension so great had been grantetjundei similar circumstance, wltich, to say the least of it was undeserving any distinguished mark of public gratitude. He would ask on what real ground was such a reward founded ? Lord Wellington had re ceived the Thanks of the House, which he (General Calcraft) had not opposed, but the Thanks of the House, and Peerages and Pensions were two very different things. It was too improvident to squan der away the public money in the beginning of a career of military fame. What would Lord Wel lington have received if he was closing a life of dis tingui .hed services ?—He could expect no more than was now proposed at his very outset in life. The Right Hon. Gentleman seemed confident that the House would agree to his Motion, that was however a little equivocal. (Mar, hear.) A few weeks would open the eyes of the, country to the real extent of Lord Wellington's services. Was there a military man in the country who would undertake the defence of Portugal with 50,000 men ? He did not think there was one who would be so fool-hardy. If the French really went in earnest about recovering pos session of Portugal, Lord Wellington and his army must and ought to be in this country. The Honour able Gentleman then proceeded to make very pointed comments on the battle of the Douro, and the conduct of Lord Wellington towards the Spaniards, from which he contended, taking a view of the whole career of that officer, that he was not entitled to the honours already bestowed on him. Mr. F. ROBINSON declared, that fresh as must have been in the recollection of the Hon. Gentleman the brilliant speech of his Right Hon. Friend, and the statements of two gallant Officers on a recent occa sion, he was surprised at his opposition to the pre sent motion. The Hon. Gentleman had advanced arguments already refuted, and had reiterated state ments already denied. Without entering into any invidious comparisons, he was anxious that Lord Wellington should be rewarded, on the ground of his own intrinsic merits. He here entered into a detail of Lord Wellington's military movements, which he contended deserved the highest approbation and re ward. The Hon. Gentleman opposite had asserted that the peerage had been granted to Lord Welling ton, to gratify a Noble Marquis for a particular pur pose. Some allusion was, he presumed, here meant to the secession from office of a Noble Friend of his (Lord Castlereagh), but he could assure that Hon. Gentleman that there was no man in the country who thought more highly of Lord Wellington's deserts than his Noble Friend, or who was more anxious that those deserts should be duly rewarded. The name of Lord Wellington was the admiration of his cotempo raries, and, to use the words of Lord Hutchinson, when speaking of the gallant and revered Ahercrom • bie, would be, g 4 embalmed in the recollection sf a grateful posterity." Mr. LITTLETON could by no means agree with his Hon. Friend (Mr. Calcraft) in his opinion, that Lord Wellington was not already an excellent officer. He did not believe there was a voice in the English or French atilty which would not pronounce him such. Nor did he conceive that the battle of Talavera was deficient in the characteristics of victory. Of this, the fact, that the British army was not pursued by the enemy, was a sufficient proof, for such had always been the practice of the French. Still, however, young as the Noble Lord was, established as was his military character, and open to him as would hence forward be all situations of honour and profit, he felt it his duty to vote against the proposed grant of the public money as unnecessary. In doing this he wished to guard against the imputation of being influenced by party motives ; although with reference to some recent observations on that subject, he was willing to confess himself so far a party man, that he would rather concur with others to obtain a desirable object, than presumptuously hope to succeed alone and un supported. General CRAWFORD took a general view of the whole of Lord Wellington's military conduct, on which he pronounced a warrn panegyric. He did not know any thing of the Noble Lord's circumstances ; but, from the liberality of his disposition, it was probable he was not rich. Indeed he had heard ,that lie had many debts to discharge. For his part, he never in his lite concurred more heartily in any vote than in the present. Mr. BAR HAM conceiving that such a motion as that proposed should be agreed to only when the country had derived, or was likely to derive-any ex traordinary benefits from the action on which it was founded, and conceiving that the battle of Talavera was not an action of that description, felt it his duty to oppose the motion. Mr. HERBERT declared that if the blood shed in the battle of Talavera had only rescued us from the imputation cast upon us by Bonaparte in the Moniteur, that we were ready to stir up the Continent to war, , but not to fight ourselves, he should have thought it well spilled. As to a retreat after a battle proving that the battle was no victory, the famous victories of i Agincourt and Dettingen, both followed by retreats, ,sufficiently evinced the fallacy of such an assertion. General LOFTUS expressed the high sense which he entertained of the extraordinary merit of LordWel ington in the battle of Talavera. The House, after thanking that Noble Lord for his conduct, would surely not withhold from him the reward which was proposed. Lord MILTON observed, that his Majesty's Mi nisters having advised his Majesty to grant a Peerage to the Noble Lord, thought they had nothing to do but to come down to the House of Commons and de mand a pension for him. In former times, greater services had been performed for less rewards but latterly it had been the custom to heap honours upon honours, not so much perhaps to shed lustre on the individual upon whom they were conferred, as on the Government by whom they were bestowed. Not seeing any thing in the conduct of Lord Wellington which deserved such a reward as that now proposed, he enured his protest against the motion. Sir F. BURDETT, in adverting to some observa tions made by an Hon. Friend of his (Mr. Lyttleton) upon party, wished to be understood by no means unfriendly to that connection of public men associated together upon public grow l s, upon an acknowledged public principlt. To ao aril connection could he be hostile, although be should ever deprecate the exis- Ae d a Party ill ilk rase with no other object . repot gal; ..ntry, . necessary , great _ wanton sacrifice of Bridal blood ? (Hear.) Mention sign ate a true military genius. The Honourable had been made of the battles of Agincourt and Member concluded with observing, that the whole Dettingen. Of the latter he had never heard history of the battle of Talavera, however exaggerated much said in the way of triumph or congratula- by the gentlemen on the other side, or extolled by the tion ; but, at all events, he believed, that no pen- poet, who had lately chosen it for his theme, might sions were conferred upon the officers who there corn. be fully expressedin one sentence, namely, that Lord mended. With respect to Agincourt, there was no Wellington got into a scrape, and that the army got similarity in its circumstances with those of Talavera. him out of it. The former was fought by an army, which, after a , Mr. FULLER retorted upon the last speaker. successful excursion into France, was, in the en- the reflection thrown out against his understan din g , deavour amidst various privations to effect its retreat, by remarking that the Hon. Gentleman shewed great forced without any possibility of choice, to contend imbecility as the leader of a party, in making a ques. with much superior numbers. It did so contend suction upon a motion of this nature. cessfully, and took off great booty, numerous pri- , Mr. WELLESLEY POLE complimented the ushers, and immortal glory.—( Hear, hear.) An Ho- 1 Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, on the manly nourable General had stated that Lord Wellington : manner in which he had done justice to the merits stood in need of this pecuniary remuneration ; and, of Lord Wellington. He admitted the question be es he understood him, that he had from a renerous fore the House was distinct from any tither ; but he disposition, been involved in great debts. Who then would appeal to the House, if the pension ought to be was to pay them ? Were they to .be discharged out granted, while he acknowledged it would be impro ', of the exhausted pockets of a burthened people ? Had per to make such a grant, if it were not wanted. Lord the nation no debts of its own to discharge ? It nn- Wellington had no expectations of one. The Hon. fortunitely was loaded with debts, in which it was Genticman had spoken as if he (Lord Welling involved by no prodigality of its own. It did not ton) had had opportunities of amassing a large for. become him to analyze the military conduct of that tune. He would give the House some idea of his battle ; but it was evident to every man that the circumstances in his own words.— [Here he produced whole object of the campaign had failed. It was true a letter from Lord Wellington, as lollows] : that from the manner in which the gallant army : " i was certain this morning, while writing to you, that I had fought, there was no disgrace attendant upon that forgot something. That which 1 wished to communicate to yon ' failure. But even were it the most brilliant and de- was the state of my affairs. When I returned from India I had chive victory, replete with every consequent advan- . t ,C ant 42 ; 0 , r 2 £ 5 43,00 ,000 :10 n;th sC e ti r‘ 00 1a 0 hra I t r t e a ce w iv t e r d . prize nio fr n o ey m a t t t. e Ss• c ri o n tr a t p o a- f tage, he would not vote a single sixpence from the Directors for my services ; and .€oooo in Government arrears, as pockets of the people to be given as remuneration.— . Commander in Seringapatam. I have now about £:40,000 re- If Lord Vsrellington was to be remunerated, why not : Inailling, half of which, including her own Xistiat), is settled on apply for that purpose to the patronage of the Crown? I La d y Wellin g ton:. (Hear, hear !)—Whenever sinecures were abused, ! Mr. WILBERFORCE thought that as Lord 1 the supporters of that system answered, that their i Wellington had been thought worth y their thanks, I suppression would dry up the fountain of reward ; they ought to.grant the pension, that it might not be destroy every incentive to exertion, and every stimu- said they were prodigal of thanks, bet parsimonious 1 Ins to patriotic devotion. Here then, according to ; with respect to money. He then paid a high tribute their own statement, was an opportunity for their due •of applause to the genius and talents of Lord Wel application. Why not remunerate Lord Wellington lington. Had he gone into any other line of life, the from such a fund ? The Crown had the opportunity ' same talents, the same exertions would have pitted in the recent vacancy of the Government of Ports- his family in more affluent circumstances. Accord mouth ; and why not make use of it to reward Lord ing to all accounts that he had seen, there was not a Wellington ? There, probably, remained another more perfect soldier living than Lord Wellington.— opportunity, to which it,was impossible with delicacy • He shared the fatigue as well as the danger with his to allude strongly, in which Government had the • men. He was attentive to their .wants, and anxious power of remunerating, without exacting from an ex- to increase their comforts. His conduct was altoge hausted people, the n:erits of that officer (alluding ther meritorious as an officer, and he thought what to the Tellership of the Exchequer.) With patronage ever their opinion might be of the late campaign, sufficient to reward all t'ie merit th tt all the ()entries they ought not to be niggards in requiting LordWel in Europe could produce, in the power of the Crowe, lington. he would never consent to augment, by the addition Mr. H. SMITH thought improper comparisons of a single sixpence, the already galling and oppres- had been made between Naval and Military Corn sive burdens of the people. , menders. He regretted that no one in that House Mr. FULLER deprecated the refusal to a gallant I had donejustice to that meritorious officer, General and a great man of such a paltry dirty pension as R. Mackenzie, who died in the battle of, Talavera, e2OOO per annum. Certain Gentlemen talked of the , and expressed an intention of shortly bringing the Douro as they would of Drury'-lane or Billingsgate— i subject before the House. (Order, *der.) Aye, " Order, order!" but when 1 Mr. WINDHAM spike. men speak one way, and vote another, neither party, Mr. CANNING conceived that the question for should employ them. Give him the man who would , the decisitifi.' of the House was not w!lether honours do 'something for the country, in preference to those I were in malty cases justly bestowed, but whether the who, like trunk-makers, were all noise and no work. ! Noble Lord who was the subject of the present dis ( Laughing.) * I cussion had arrived at that degree of estimation in Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON, in opposing which it became the House to acknowledge his merits • the present proposition, did not denymerit to the dis- with some substantial mark of national reward. It tinguished officer alluded to ; but that it was not of a was merely to do justice to the Noble Lord that he nature which entitled it to the reward demanded. It ; was anxious that House should agree to the vote, he was time to put an end to the system of delusion which 1 wished that they should determine upon the policy had so lately grown into fashion , when failures and 1 which he maintained was to be found in the vote pro defeats were received by Government, with all the de-1 posed. In giving a permanent reward to the Noble monstrations of rejoicing attendanton brilliant success. Lord, they would convey to posterity the prop* de- The Earl of DESART, (in a maiden speech,) I gree of estimation in which they held the military warmly panegyrieed Lord Wellington and the glo- I character ail: the country. If those Gentlemen who rious battle of Talavera. He thought that the pen-' were disposed to object to the grant could chew that Sion proposed was due to Lord Wellington, not I the Peerage had been improperly bestowed, then in merely as a' remuneration for his services, but as an deed a sufficient argument was adduced to satisfy honorary grant to which he was well entitled. He was : him that the pension was improper. The Right Hon. surprized that the spirit of party could so blind men's' Gentleman entered into a comparative view of the eyes, or seal up their hearts, that they should not be ' services of Lord Wellington with other commanders able to discover merit so transcendent. He believed on whom honours and rewards bad, been bestowed, that there were many persons in this country who j and contended that it was State Policy to confer took a pleasure in reviling every thing that was great lon the Noble Lord what was now asked, because and distinguished in the country, and who would be i his services had been eminently useful to the coun glad• to see the first families in it reduced to absolute ' try. He would suppose that if the arms of France, ' dependence on their generosity. To him it appeared 1 after a long series of defeats , should to - morrow that the battle of Talavera displayed in a most emi- ,be victorious, would the House be surprised if nent degree those qualities which are most admired in ' the Ruler of .that Kingdom bestowed upon the a great General. General, not merely a Dukedom but a principality' Mr. WHITBREAD stated, that notwithstanding with all the appendages ? Xould not the House say, the anathema of party hostility made against the op- that he acted wisely, in showering down honours posers of this grant, he must continuetooppose it. He and substantial rewards upon the person who Lad could never subscribe to the doctrine, that because the raised the military character of France, and retrieved Crown was advised to elevate individuals to the Peer- that part of the honour of the country from that obey lap, that therefore it was a matter of course, for that ance under which it had so long lain dormant. Ap. 'louse to vote a pension to support it. Such a disposal ply that to the case now before the House, and the of the public money would be nothing less than a gross Gentlemen would see that, at least on the ground of and scandalous profusion. But then it was asked, policy—(The Vote war called for)—for the sake of i would the opposers of that motion degrade the Peer- example, as a stimulus to future commanders, as an age? Was itbecoming in the Gentleman opposite to put I useful lesson to the country, and as an incitement to such a question ? Degrade the Peerage ! By whom was our youths training to arms to tread in the steps of it degraded ? By the Right Hon. Gentleman, the the Noble- Lord, he must support the grant. The Chancellor of the Exehequer,who had offered an eleva- House would do wisely to make him the living mo tion in that Peerage as a barter for his support in office. nument, and not wait until his person was gone, and With respect to the claims of Lord Wellington, for nothing but his fame .survived, before they thought whom, though opposed to the present proposition, he of reward. If it was necessary that the House of had an esteem, as a distinguished officer, he still must Peers should be filled, it could not be bettor filled than say, that he conceived the rewards already bestowed with sech persons as the Noble Lord and others whohave were superior to those conferred upon other gallant made themselves conspicuous in the annals of glory. men for great national services. Had not Nelson —He wished the other House not to be a stagnant ' been known to the country before the battle of Abou- lake of collected honours, but liable to receive ire kir ; had he not been engagedin some thirty or forty addition new streams. According to all the beau battles, yet did he receive, after the victory at tiful theory of cur Constitution, he was convinced Abosikir, a double Peerage, as Lord Wellington did? this House had the right, by its vote of this night, No such honour was conferred, neither, as he be- to enter into its share of the prerog alive of the lieved, was there a pension upon that occasion be- Crown, by granting the Noble Lord a pension, and stowed. In the mix of Earl St. Vincent, the pension not allow him to go into the House of Peers depen. did not follow as a consequence of the title, for in dent, not only in himself, for support from the Crown point of time the grant was not voted until some to maintain his dignity, but also rendering his poste. months after, when upon inquiry it was ascertained, rite- subject to the same state of dependence. that the private fortune of that Nobleman was by no , The Committee divided on the motion, means as extensive as was .at first supposed. Mr. Ayes 213—Noes 106—Majority 107. Whitbread stated his full coincidence in what fell The House resumed, and the report was ordered from the Worthy Baronet ( Burdett), respecting the ap- .to be received co Monday. . plication of sinecure °lilies to reward nationalservice, • The House adjourned at half-past twelvst cecina as well as in his proteitiagatnst the principle that that till Monday. • , and bit ;rat, ttd held together It no vett pnMie 12 4 144p50Va11iftr441 1 1141 2 1 : 1). If 'principle, and indeed never concurring iri iiny thing e If the *but tie' vote they gave. Another Honourable squandered away die* dwn Ora finkulles• As 11 ad-in ?ember Mr. Herbert) estimated the value of the . faithful steward of the-peblic he seversouliteoseent der, a battle of Talavera, by the impression it made upon to such a proposition. Mr. W. next took a review of it, thettmperor of the French. What ! was British valour of the progress of Vora Wellington to Talavera, and iublic so low in our own estimation, that in order to acquire( contended that in that battle he had by no means dis • was a reputation of gallantry, it was necessary to make a I played those great comprehensive faculties-which de. 4 , 1 • • n, t_