Star. — London, England, 1817-02-05 00:00:00

PAItLIZ.WLNIARY PILOCEEbIht;S. HOU C GF I.OR 17,8 RU tRY 4. Crrtahs not , Ac:s rt t r...inte.l by die Conyabisalooors of the Cuatorn-.--1 Item' :b table. Several accmt: r, cit i.t• ti from tlie Mist respectiog the issues of 'Ur .r I .:.r,tutnt to r..cent orders Irma their Lord- Alps which we. e !old upon the table. A yid• ty elori:^ter.:a and returns res;:ecting the importation of el,een.:, h !ter, :.11.1 cnal% : a:A also teat et , lug the io.tnuftcture of eel:, tr, t! nr.tion or Lord KLNYON, ordered to be htld In.for;• Rowe. An t..tt!•tt..le. tSe ••!ings in the Ecclesiastical Court, In l',c case cb: Pa wa. vresetite4 at the Bar, when •y's I);vutte ::1.1 tc a firs: time. • ettACtices. The order for sunim :ling their Lordships being teach ,Lned Viscount SID MOUTH said he rose, pu►- snt 44 to his rimier, to prop:•se an Address to his !tofu; Highness t h e 1 -1 ,;.1CC Regent, in censequenci. of the Mes,aze which he hod the honour to deliver to the 1-11.usc yesterday, from his Royal Highness. Tucir Lordships, he trusted, would all readily ima gine that such a communication as this of yesterday could not be made with"nt great pain and reluctance ot the part of the Illustrious Personage from whom i it proceeded, on tiuding himself under the necessity of communicating to their Lordships and the cows tr7, the certain existence el 'editing' practices, of alert: ogs, end of combinations, tending to bring into hatred and contempt his Majesty's Government ; arid to overthrow the whole system of the Laws and Con stitution of the country. They must also be certain that such a communication would not have been made but firm the conviction of a most urgent necessity. It, therefore. it were the pleasure of their Lordships to concur in the Address of Thanks which he was about to propose, ke should immediately proceed t.) sub unit to their Lor.!ships, that the papers ordered to be laid upon the table by his Royal Highness's com msnds, should be referred to a Committee of the House. He would abstain from any reference what ever to the course adopted at any other period. In that view, he would say that nothing could be done, or ought to be said, until the Report c•f the Committee, should the aoreintinent of one be resolved upon, shall be upon the tank. All that he had to request of their Lordsinios was, to abstain from making up their minds mini: The result of the proposed inquiry should be declared. He then begged them to suspend their opinions aosi judgments, until they had an opportu nity of reading and considering the Report. He had only one other eircuussouice to state, which was, that t!,e communication made on the part of his Royal Highness the Psince Regent, nes not founded ups:: :thy circumstance seferring to any consideration in the least degree personal to himself, or any dis. , trust in the loyalty and sactions of the great body of his Majesty's subjects, as not only himself and, those who heard hint, bet, he believed, au over whelmiug majority of the people, felt the utmost horror and detestation at the attempts made against the per►on of his Royal Highness. But though that atucocut mirage, and the indignities offered to the yenta of the Priuce Regent, never had existence, his Majesty's Ministers s in possession of iniurnsatien, which was 1.41 11 _ h_710::: tad Hels: uay, that would Live rendered it t . ieir itt.iispensable duty to have re commended to his Royal Highness to send such a M.::ssage to rash emetic as that which had been-re cce:ly sent. The Noble Viscount them moved an humble Address to the Prince Regent, thanking him for his most gracious Message, and assuring his Royal Highness that the House wculd proceed to .take the papers and documents laid before them into its most serious and immediate considerat.on. Earl GROSVENOIt—. , My LotUs, the Noble Viscount has undoubtedly made a most tremendous charge against a large portion cf the people of this country. 1 tru,t that the charge will not be sus . wined ; but, at ad events, your Lordships cannot but acquiesce in the propositifm of the Noble Viscount, for going into this Committee, after such a serious, such a momentous charge. Of this, however, I ate' convinced, that, let the disaffection be great or trivial, . it has been provoked by that disposition which has, , been manifested, on many occasions, by his Majesty's Ministers. in setti:l their faces against every species 01 reform, in pertinaciously opposing every thing hitt eremied ant* efficient retrenchment. ' (Rear, burr. ) Lord HOLLAND was of opinion that no objec • tion could be fairly made to the course of Proceeding sggested on the present occasion, by the Noble Se. . .aretary of State. But he could not leave the "House . .iegliout expressing his deep regret at this proceeding, whether originating in any improper practice, on the • itaitcilindiviiluals or whether it proceeded from On . ilnention,of any persons. iu or out of power, to create 'false iu thepresent crisis of the country, being • brought, forward..senmethately aft:r a decision of the House. ii:Petition, complaining of great iediri qif. hardship, which was *ejected on the &remind that the patty could have his redress at Coat ' mon Law—a rejection which he thought proper, and be would wish to try the merits of the present case 'rite same piaci*, and that it would be shewn • .y the NobieVisecunt, that the desired remedy could Ed be hid at the Common Law. It was brought forward at a time. when great distress was felt by the people, who were naturally anxious 01* their Repre segt.iiives should conduct themselves in a manner _ . , that would best reconcile them to. the Established titws and Co:titivation of their Country. , After the . candielstatement of the *hie Viscount, he must say the V!ricnt was not a fit niesnent to judge respecting silltepur measures. He thought, however, that any law tending to abridge the liberties of the subject, was at any time a ;peat an.t delactable evil, but more so at a period like . this, when it was admitted on all sides that the people generally were labouring under igru,l: distresses. A degree at discontent must natit ri:ny prevail; and also a persuasion that Parliament cnchi supply refit Its more immediate and effectual thazt . possibly could. be done. It WAS at the same time a great consolation to see that the great body of the peo ple .looked to Parliament under such cir- CIIM3LAIICIS for redress and :Aid . ;—it became there fore proportionably incumbent oa the Noble Lords to thew why they recommend that Parliament should b e prorogued from time to time ? He regretted.that under such adverse circumstances this should be the first measure bought forward, and on grounds of distrust and jealousy of the inclinations ot, more or less, .a portion of the people. It was a fearful omen that Ministers should commence with such a mea sure ; though he was happy to Pear the Noble Vis count say, it wan not conlVect with the circumstan of the present outrage offered to his Royal Highness In every point of view it wes incumbent on tffe Noble Lords to make out, to the satisfaction of every honest man, that the dangers which existed could not be met by the laws already in existence. The Earl of LIVERPOOL.—" My Lords, I do not mean to trouble your Lordships with more than a very few words on this occasion. According to what has been said lay tits Noble fords opposite, no difference of opinion exists as to the mode of proceed , jog recommended by my Noble Friend. I cannot think—whatever diversity of sentiment there may be, either with respect to the internal soite of the country,- or with reference an the measures to be adopted under that situation of thisgs—l cannot, my Lord, con ceive, that a more proper, a more constitutional, or, I will add, a More liberal proposition, could be intro duced. than that brought forward by my Noble Friend.—(l6or. kV% )—The general circumstances, undoubtedly. to which the Noble Lotd opposite has alluded, must naturally form a part of the o , nsidga tioii of the Committer. But, it was the wish of , Go. ye:lament, in noticing those general circumstances, not to suffer the Message, or the Address in answer to it. to pledge Parliament to any opinion whatever -oieither as to the necessity of any farther measures to secure the fliternal peace and tranquillity of the country. or as to the propriety of letting matters re main as they are. lam sure the Noble Lord who spoke last will agree with me, that, if his Majesty's Ministers were in possessien of the information stated in the Prince Regent's Message, they could not have performed their duty in any other way so weil as by bringing it before Parliament—aro:, accroc:ing to established precedent, suOmitting it to the ccrs;dera :ion of a Secret Committee—so that no person should be bound to express an opinion, as to what should be . done, or whether any thing ought to be done, until the circumstances were fully investigated. This is the course pursued on the present occasion. The House is not called on by the Address to offer any opinion—and my Noble Friend has strongly desired, that no Noble Lord should prejudge the question, and form an opinion, whatever it might be. I wish it to be therefore understood, that we go to this in quiry with unbiassed feelings. I hope that Nnble Lords will restrain their minds from coming to a conclusion on this subject, until those who are on Ole Committee have made their Report, and they have all had an opportunity of seeing it, and of deciding fairly whether acme ulterior proceedings should or *should not be adopted ? That decision will be form ed, wit% every regard to the liberties of the subject— with a strong disposition not to infringe en the esta blished laws of the country—with every tenderness to the feelings of the people, on the One hand, but, on the other, with a firm determination to uphold the Constitution of the Country.--(Hear, hear.) — With respect to what has been stated by a Noble Earl (Grosvenor), who says, that there is a tremen dous charge made against a great body of the people of this country, I would ask the Noble Earl. where does he find 'hat charge ?—tEarl Gitoavanort—" In the Speech."]—Neither in the Speech delivered on the first day of the Session, nor in the Message pre sented yesterday, and now taken into consideration, has such a charge been made. His Royal Highness, on the contrary, had been advised to declare, that the .great body of the-people of this country are loyal, and are arrayed against the attempts of disaffected and seditious persons, who might endeavour ep draw them from their allegiance. My Noble Friend, who spoke last. adverted to the distresses of the time (which are admitted on all hands) as a consideration that should operate against the enactment of new measures. I admit the distresses of the time—but, if my Noble Friend considers the principle which he has advanced, he will perceive that it is not tenable.— Designing men, I know, will be at all moments dis posed to do mischief and create confusion, if they can; but my Noble Friend will allow that it is not in time of peace and prosperity, when no distress is felt in the country, that such efforts are likely to prevail and become notorious. It must always be in time of difficulty, either internal or external, that such at-- tempts can be resorted to by the designing. What I am most anxious to do is this, to testate what is substantively contained in the Speech from the Throne—namely, that we ate not disposed, for a moment, to bring any charge against the great body of the people of this nation, whom I believe, most sincerely, to be firmly attached to the established Constitution. But, my Lords, we are not, on that account, to be insensible to the fact, that, in many periods of the history of this country, persons have been misled by the arts and delusions of others—and, therefore, the present state of things cannot be looked on wit's indifference. I trust, my Lords, , we will not shew that supineness and apathy which encourage danger—but that we shall keep our minds free from such feelings; and that, when the question comes re gularly before us, we shall look at it without fear and without prejudice. We ought not to countenance any unnecessary infringement of the law, neither ought we to sacrifice, to mere names, that • which is most essential to the security and well-being of the State." Earl GROSVENOR shortly explained. The Noble Lord, he thought, must not have understood his meaning. Unless he thcught it were meant to include some large portion of the people in the charge, it would be idle and futile to make it, as, he imagined, it could never be meant to take up their Lotdships' time in considering what a few trifling and miserable individuals coul d do. Earl GREY.—He did not know that any reason able objection could be made to the motion now be fore tl:.•ir Lordships; for, when a Message came down with a communication that • such practices' , existed, and threatened such dangeous consequences as were stated in the Message, it was isseduty of the House to send that inforrnaticn to a Cosnroittee to be examined; and the communication having been made, a more proper course could not be adopted than the usual mode of proceeding on such occasions. Whe ther the dangers were really such . as required the adoption of any ulterior measures by Parliament, wee precisely that particular matter on which they would have aftewards to decide, when the whole sub ject should be examined and the report before them ; and till that period arrived he should suspend his judgment but while he so suspended his judgment, he could not help joining his Noble Friend in la menting, that under the present circumstances of tbis country, any necessity should have arisen, even in the .opinion of the Noble Lords themselves; for coming to Parliament with stlidi a communication. They had done no more than juetice to the great lindy of the people, wiien they had erprelisr.d the it.Ue,t re liance nn their attachment to s arid Couttitu tion, even nectar circuoi.tancLs of the severest pes sore. White cxpised t., hardships and ap, s : imparalii led distress extendii:g hoar. the lowest to the higlies! ranks in the C9fnmocity, at.d operating upon :he great mass of Gip ppulattan with a I.3VSSUre unktiot , n at any formar F.eriod, partly tram the ina biiity of the Uglier cilsles to afford that relief to tl.e lower which a; other beast-11s of &stress they had been enabled to eive ;—while siaering under all this ac cumulation of hardships, Ili, people b.id displayed a patience, fortitude, resignatvai, ant r o6i'ence in the Parliament and Constitution ::f their co:intry, which had never het et exhibited, under such circumstances, by the people of any teher country on earth. But it such were the effects produced by the Constitution of this country, the Executive Government, their Lord ships, and Parliament in general, ought th consider well before they did any thing that could impair the confidence of the people in that Constitution. The Noble Lord (Sidmouth) had adjiarcd their Lordslit i ts to come to the consideration of this subject without favour. without affection, acid without partiality ; and be (Earl Grey) now repeated that adjuration, and called upon their Lordships to come to the con sideration of the subject with the most rigid impar tiality, and with minds as averse to the diminution of the liberty of the subject as they were favourably disposed towards the preservation end security at the Crown. It was undoubtedly deeply to be lamented. as his Noble Friend had well said, that behme any measure bad been proposed for affiatclirg relief to the suffering population, before any scheme of reduaeaa, retrenchment, or economy. bad been brought under .their view, and after the importunities of the people, and of many MemAers of the Legislature, for economy and retrenchment, had been met with opposition or evasion ; that after all this, the Ministers of the Crown should now have come down with such a communication as this: and when he considered the circumstances under which it was made, he cnitlil not help entertaining the most seriouf appreln esions that this proceeding would lead to' some measure abridging the liberty of the subject.—(Ther, hr.o.) The Noble Lord had said, and pie petly sa;d, that Ire would abstain from giving any opinion as to the ulterior measures which it might be necessary to actor, and he (Eati Grey) would follow the Noble Lord's example in teat respect; observirtg, however, that it would be incumbent on the Ministers clearly to prove. in case any ulterior measures should be proposed, that the evils resulting from the existence of these meetings and combinations, with nothing to check them but the ordinary law of the land, would be greater than that evil which must result from arming the Crown with new and extraordinary powers. They had lately done much, in addition to whet bad been done by their ancestors, for the safe ward and protection of the Crown; but he did not know that, in addition to what had been done by their ancestors, they bad established one safeguard for the security of the rights and privileges of the people. He treated, however, that they would view. this subject with a disposition as favourable to the preservation of the rights and liberties of t h e peopl: as to the preservation of the proper powers and au thority of the Crown. They had seen the effects of the enjoyment by the people of the blessings of a free constitution ; and he hoped that nothing but the most urgent and the most paramount necessity, clearly and incontestably proved, and the absolute impossibility of applying a remedy by any other means than the inter ference of Parliament, would induce their Lordships to touch the least particle of the liberty et the subject. He would, however, suspend his judgment until the subject should be brought fully before them, with an anxious desire to find that any Parliamentary inter ference would be unnecessary. Nothing could he more impolitic, more pernicious, than to arm the 'Crown with new and extraordinary posters tinder the present circumstances of the country, unless it should appear to be a measure of paramount necessity. He repeated, therefore, that their Lordships oupht to .'vr their attention to this most momentous auhjact, with A resolution as Atom; to protect the hill, rimes of the subject, as to guard tae Crown from dime. r. The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM hoed) , hut pointedly delivered his sentiments on the occasion, which seemed gieatly in unison with those of the Noble Lords on his side of the House. He could not avoid observing that Ministers, by their present' conduct. incurred a weighty and serious respnnai. 1144. He would come to judgment upon the case, in the spirit in which a jutor should decide upon a case of lite or death ; and be trusted that they would al! come to the investigation divested of party preju r dices. it would be incumbent on Ministers to }mime at least, that the existing laws were not sufficient tot the purposes for which an extension might be sought' —as be never could subscribe to the argument, that . the greater the distresses of the Country, the more necessary it was to give additional power to the laws. Instead of attempting to abridge their Constitutional rights, the policy and object should be to endeavour to give the people all those remedies and redress which the laws and Constitution afforded to them; and'which instead of tending to alienate, would the more firmly fix their attachment to both. Nothing. however, could be more weak, or mote fatal to the : people themselves, than that false humanity which left them exposed to the arts and delusions of those, few in number, but desperate in disposition, who, for the worst of purposes. endeavoured to mislead theme—who, under the pretence of calling the atten tion of the people to theim grievances, awd tfereme dies for them, turned away their attention from their real gtievaoces, and the real and true remedies. and titled their minds with imaginary grievances. and the most delusive, and eisiiinary and dangerous plane of relief; with vain theoretical notions and schemes, which, even when reduced to their utmost standard of modem ation, would be found to be most mis chievous, dangerous, and destauctive to their own liberties, and to the Constitution of their country. The question was then put, and the Address was voted near. dot. Viscount SIDMOUTH then moved, that a Com mittee of Eleven Lords be appointed to consider of the pspers and documents referred to in the Prince Regent's Message. That the said Committee should be appointed by ballot; and that the &asset; should be put on the table of the House to-morrow, ler the purposes of the said ballot. All which west ordcred.--.4dieieree o . • lIP MUSE OF CONllin No: Mr. Rowe lkarn , cd an Account co' flt!rs. ( , (treentaA Fist:try, ad in tran•porting %AA : , tiered to lie 11.1 tb:- rab:r. Lord A 'LEV pi.gin!eil .11. e ATI , -..er of toe Atle.:*sll the Marrilze :ha Pri•fe,••• t. Mr. :Au rtft BRID6C4 ttd '•a fr , eite I \tapir, Aidtnntn, ant C.,::•-nqn ,)! the C •.• dun, artit.g (oral the Mitre, of th• ; Refit= In ParLanienr.—i):l.r. d r. , lir :~ •n Lord COCI-IttANE presented a I-e:i ism ln , m terfa n 14. , e .„ *es and other inftabit.m. c.f the town 44 414 is I.s - 4 shire 044 a former evenitap, .rheri pees n Lig a I'Lt :In , had hetn vaable to speak to the (tomato perAnis from whom he had received it. I. , be pre•elit 44 9 he could guts to the House, that thole from vt!,orn t!. Vet now in his d tante, were perswis or relirou. isscluetry had herLtaforemaisatiltied them in conitur, . pont-rat ptic,:ab!.....leturenout could not ter cilL•ei s.s Utley Eyed, tenvenve 1.111..14111 i :c, the deitz.:es o( loch ro ootr.ilato, and the ;:rlevarcr;arls'eh, at ten7ll, CVOs . them to come before that honourable •1 ;It for rrtrenchment In the ilittie exrcht!i are, aid ir a ;tr• ,r the lion., of Comasous.—:*ke. Pctltitna was read an•: todu, lie on the Talk:. A neer Wr.t was ordered for the rorough of We-,:tn-. the mom of 1.0..1 Vi-euunt Ca Ati 301: ar: , who e:,: had accepted the (.3.lltem Hundreds. A Petition ems piemnitinl fro:i the Town of 8an,!,),.; F r , county of (Cork, against the Window Tat, and pt. e : some aheratton might be made lo the r.ode of cuq...i ik: .L.. sewed Taxes.—Ordered to lie no the Fable. Mr. ROBINSON brought in a to ret n!are Trldr the Cape of (load Ho;.e.—Read a first, 3.4 r..: • r cood time to-morrow. A Perinon v.-as en:tented from the ei7el , •er-. 7 , T c. snd Cirrgy of IN:asthighaen, pr.l::fg for Z:1 alttTronn i.t ttl Laws --thdertil to !h. on the "ta.‘le. Mr. I.oCX l l.iti I' rate notice, the nn T ht.! S.• w move far leave tu br'ng in a B a r.vott the I .0.. The liou.e went Liio a Comnti:te± on the M tl•at tat which Mr. Roe Newt moved, :hat the tlikir.va:: in.triseted to ow% tor fray, to brir•.g Ina Ditl toy a:e:ul • ec4 rad:rill to the tract , - front Alaita as were afforded to 04! . ; . braltar. The Resoktion wag agreed to, the House and leave was given to bring in the An Account of the ourstanAs.g Licht quer BIN w:.• ()mu : : up.—Ordered to lb_ on. the Tabie An Account of the Unfunded Debt of in land woo rrearntt,:. —Ordered to lie on the T.Ne. Mr. I.Y C'I•LEt'ON *Wird to know the iat.r.•lo••r ! t t Ct.anceit ,. .r of the Exchequer with respect to a new f,%tie chequer Mils •I he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHFANER decho,ti Jug any explanatiqm on the tuhject at pre,..l:, as it tv.,41.1 to , tg.a come haute the House Su a regular way. Mr. Lunn i'ON brought u the keport of 'he t:m,,.nt•ue of Supply, wl.'.ch was .13reed to, and at Bas r“..t‘t 1 t...t Eimar c tu.mortow gu into the Cowinuttre. Mr. PONSONISY wished to know of the Chancel:or the EN.::ttquer what eo.es he intende to move in the Cumn...ztct I Supply to-morrow ? '1 he CHANCELLOR of the EXCiIEQUER only it..:11, I to move for a grant to meal the sl . rea,ury bills on account 01 at • land, which were alum to become due. REFORM PETITIONS. Mr. W. SMITH said, he had a Petition to pre sent from Norwich, which he did not know contained any thing improper or offensive. This ' , pinion if his, however, did no: nine:, in his mind, the sub. stance or object cf the Petition. He mint i'ecl:ce giving any particular opinion on the coatents.becaiase thuught that the cl..itn ups a Member to got such opinion was imposing upon him a task %%Lie' was at the cam: time 1).31;1 invidious and useless—.l - because it calied on an individual mini-,: to state an opinion as to the wording of a profit', and because such an opinion was imagined to I'•!VP 4 certain degree of influence upon the linnse. must be very strong language indeed in .t petit .:., before 1* could be induced to decline to rren.nt tee from his constituents. Tile claim was uieten. voce, nifter any Member's decl nion, the Nettie n..7:it totally disagree %vied the petition i so that 11J rage was to be gained from the indivit2nal opinion. If, again, he thought a petition tvdt, ::•.- proper to present, it might he given into the some other Mother who thought differeialy, a. the House might afterwards think it was sit to ceived, in which case his own opoion would 1,4 r•-.. tuitnus and useless. He then adverted to the car: is rejected petition nn the 26th of April, 1716, vkirl was refuse:s on the score of imprver languan:•• 11 at petition prayed for the repeal of the Slite•tni.l Art, which • styled an overturning of the cum:i...- ti.rn and subversion of the rights and liberties 0' nation. But he thought, that if the House mum; would go so tar as to double the peri;.! ; own existence. he scarcely knew any terror. to ai to prevent him irons thinking it his tiwy petition upon the stihji.ct. He had ..t 'OS :• titian and its prayer, and he thought it one.; received. There were respectable names nil t! r sheet, lollowinf by theusandi sigin.tnres. It on the principle of the vestion lion he right to decline giving his own opinion on the in wbkh the pet;tion was couched. lie moved the petition he brought up, which was ort'etaid. Mr. C. WYNN regretted to find. occlr! ,, n• rejecting any petition ; but the rule always !ail 0,-:0 by the ablest Members, and the bigh,:• , t in the House, had been, that every Meirher sh••• , A give the sanction r I his own opinion ta the and exprussions of the petition he presented; fore he could not agree to the principle troy n:•••r•- tained. 11 lie looked back to the proceet:;it::: •• Parliament, he found the weal, examples (d . I • ••• and of Mi. Pi.t, who wete as anxions as any .r• bets to support the jus: ri A lus of petitioner.. had however presented, un some oe cat i l ns, of which they stated that they Jid not apre..e • prayer ; but the u they said they had read Our.: did not see a;•y tiring i,t them offensive or ei tal to the 'Lase. Tin Honourable W. Smith) seemed to treat this as nugatory, ! • the House could reject a petition : but wa. •. a point of isd.fferetice to the House to act ••; - questions as a ntere mato. of course, and at..,.L; be compelled to hear a train of expretsione in themselves, and impertinent to, or urc.7•••:::c with the siMiect, on wh:ch the petition c.-,1 5 !, e. At this rate, a Petitiva of the size ef ' • • killalv) volume ttli:!!:t bo brought up on.i !kr!: !. vtat cxttatit•tati Rittl r irt•tding I,;i WAS qtke tired tan weep hearing Ile va. be obliged to oppcse receivinF, .1 petition ur.•• ' • present circunastinces. He had rale. perszn'• had brought petitions to him, that he was 161,6:: pre sent them, but sometimes they hard run great a length, or contained what might ewe rejection, and he had then recommende.l the f 4 1 1.• to amend and alter them. It was much the bt. l way to take any offensive matter c.ut of a Minor ! fore presenting it. He saw no one bent tit like-F • arise from any alteration of the uu;l , .rm and ce - bl:sited practice of the House. There must 0b5. ,.. be. a great inconvenience in being obliged I . ) and hear all sorts of lust:tit and concerti:: : fl