Star. — London, England, 1821-06-29 00:00:00

• 0 - • . s • the elabn. ..Hi4oegitt..that the Hon. Gentlemen op pe.siresseftaispes -110 te w targes upon that Com mittee by unpile - 01bn, hie h these proceedings were by no means entitled. Mr. R. PEEL had formed an opinion impartially upon the papers which were brought before the Hensel and he had come to the conclusionlhat the clainfs of General Desfourneaux were completely unfounded. He should regret extremely thar such a claim should be admitted upon the ground of the inability to.make such allowances from the - public money, yet he should still more lament it, as establishing a precedent of a :most dangerous description—(Hear). Mr.M ANSFIELD expressed his intention of voting for the amendment. Mr. MONCK supported the larger grant upon the principles of justice, although he was at all tim es in favour of the most rigid economy. • Mr. IRVING entered into an explanation of the 'views which the Committee had taken of the case, and defended the conclusion at which they arrived of recommending the granting of the claims. His ears had been assailed at the door of that House and else where, with taunts and observations that this busi • ness was a job. He treated those taunts with indif ference, because he had only been actuated by a sin ' -sere desire of doing justice. He had first undertaken . the case from motives of compassion ; and when all tiro documents were laid before him, he was fully convinced that General Desfourneaux was entitled to everything which he claimed. To whatever decision the House should come, he should bow with respect. But at the same time he felt that the honour of the nation would be sullied by a refusal of any part of the sum claimed.' • Lord BINNING fully concurred in the sentiments expressed by his Hon. Fi lend, the Member for Ox ford, with regard to the merits of the claim before the House. He thought, however, that there was another article, besides the I:1,100 allowed by the Treasury, upon which the claims seemed to be well founded. He therefore hoped that the Hon. Member would alter his Amendment, by making the sum 5,0001. Lord CR ANBORNE said, that he had examined the subject before the House, under strong suspic i on that all was not right. He was now the more con vinced of it, and should oppose the Resolution. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Treasury bad only allowed the sum of •£1,400, because that was the only claim for which vouchers were produced. The House would, how ever, act upon the other evidence now before it. Every Member must vote according to his own views of the justice of the claims. For himself, as a mem ber of the Government, he felt bound by the decision of the Committee to which the whole matter had been referred for inquiry. Sir F. OMMANEY spoke against the Resolution. The House then divided— For the original Resolution Against it Majority against it - —47 On the re-ad.nission of strangers to the gallery, Mr. T. WlLsow was addressin g the House.—After a M few observations from him, r. Goavox, Mr. In. VINO, Mr. GRENFELL, and Lord Btamso, the House again divided upon the amended Resolution. For the amended Resolution - 41 Against it - • - tit Majority - ••••210 Mr. HUME took occasion, on putting the vote for defraying the expense of the convicts at home, to ask in what manner those convicts were clothed—whe ther it was by private bargain or public competition? Mr. H. CLIVE replied, that one individual had the clothing of the convicts for life. The terms, however, were particularly advantageous to the Pub lic.—.He was enabled to say, that so much had every thing been reduced, that each convict did not cost the country £2O a year, and very many not so much. Mr. HUME observed, that it was impossible the Public could have such good terms by this sort of dealing, as if the thing was the subject of public competition. He wished to know whether the victual ling of these persons was contracted for? Mr. CLIVE said, at present he was unable to go tit° details, but if the Hon. Member would wait for another day, he would give him every satisfaction. Ile could only state as to the whole expense of each convict. Mr. HLTME said, the ignorance of the Hon. Gen tleman was another proof of that carelessness which too many men in office in that House so often exhi bited. The victualling of the convicts cost 090,000 alear, and surely the Hon. Gentleman ought to be able to say whether it was done by private bargain or public contract. In the absence of information, he would move, that this matter stand over till to-morrow. Mr. CLIVE said, the victualling and clothing were Ore upon the lowest terms—not, however, by public competition, but by calling upon several persons to make tenders, and then accepting the lowest. Mr. HUME said, that was the worst plan for saving . which could be resorted to. The 'fact was, these individuals met beforehand and settled the prices amongst them, so that there was not a farthing difference in their tenders. It might be true that the lowest tenders were accepted ; but it did not follow, therefore, that the articles were obtained upon the cheapest terms. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, his Hon. Friend had no objection to postponing the matter till to-morrow. On the Resolution for a sum to make up the Fee Funds of the Secretaries of State's Offices, Mr. HUME hoped they would be brought under separate heads in the Estimates. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, a better way would be, to skew the amount of fees in the various departments.—The Resolution was then agreed to. On the grant of £50,000 to the Mint, Mr. HUME wished to kpow what it was for? Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, the Bank wanted a large coinage, the expense of which was estimated at rr5,000 ; but then there were £15,000 in hand.— Motion agreed to. On a sum of 1:3500 for printing Journals, Mr. HUME said, he knew they could be done equally well for £l5OO. tie therefore would move, that the suet be reduced by £2OOO. - Mr. ARBUTHNOT hoped the Hon. Member would not press his motion, as Government was in clined to grant a Committee in the nest Session, in order to inquire into the heads of economy. • The SPEAKER said, the mode was to take a grant on account, the Speaker certifying, that a cer- tafn quantity of work had been► executed ; and then the Treasury inquired into the propriety of the charge. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, the Treasury referred the quantity of work done to the opinion of the East India Company's Printer ; and he putting a value on it, the amount was either allowed or disallowed, as he declared the charge to be proper or not. Mr. H. SUMNER said, there were great charges in consequence of the immense number of Papers moved to be printed by Hon. Members. Mr. HUME said, the expenses might be reduced one-half, both in printing and stationery, for the pub lic departments. Mr. H. G. BENNETT thought that Members ought to have Copies of Works ordered to be pub lished by the House, especially of the new editions of the Statutes, which were much fuller, and contained references of great use to Members. The SPEAKER said, this work was very slow and extremely expensive ; and when delivered to Mem bers many ceased to be so before their sets could be completed. The consequence was, that many volumes were found for sale in different parts of the town. It was then determined to place Copies in such Public Institutions as would enable persons curious, or inte rested, to refer to them. Mr. H. G. BENNETT thought the unsold Copies ought to be distributed among the Members of Parliament. Mr. HUME wished to know, whether sums of three, four, five, and £6OOO a-year had not been voted to Sir I). H. Blair and Co. as King's Printers, for printing the Records of the Kingdom of Scotland? The SPEAKER said, these were for printing very ancient Records of Scotland. Mr. HUME wished an account of these sums to be laid before the House. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, he should take care it should be done. Mr. I3UTTERWORTH complained, that some persons sold Papers belonging to the House, and made large sums of money by that means.—The motion was then agreed to. On the vote for printing the Journals. Mr. HUME said, he had received information that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had, in the course of the week, been offered to have the Journals printed for one-half the present sum. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, he would look at the proposal.—Motion agreed to. On the vote for keeping Criminal Lunatics, Mr. HUME objected to confining even Criminal Lunatics when they were pronounced sane, and were no longer dangerous to the Public : Hadfield had been sane for many years. Mr. H. G. BENNET': said, all these persons had committed crimes for which they had forfeited their lives. They might appear sane until released, and then commit a murder. Government had no interest in confining them longer than necessary. Mr. CLIVE said, that Hadfield was subject to vio lent paroxysms: and the Law Officers had decided, that there was a power to confine him as long as his release would be dangercus to the Public. Mr. W. SMITH would consent to the vote, be cause persons would not commit capital offences in order to be confined as lunatics. Mr. HUME hoped the subject would be taken into consideration. Mr. N. CALVERT thought, that a lunatic 'con victed of a capital offence should not be let loose again. A man might affect madness to commit crime.—The Resolution was then agreed to. On the vote for Consuls, Mr. HUME thought this ought to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, the sum on the Civil List was voted for a particular number, but not for additional Consulates or Embassies. Mr. HUME said, there was a fixed number to be provided tor,and no more. The slim of nearly3oo,oool. a-year was one-half more than they should pay for all their Embassies or Consulates. All our Consuls were much overpaid, and at Rio Janeiro one-half per cent. was charged on all imports and exports for the use of the Consul, who had, besides, £3OOO a.year. No fees should be taken, as it opened a door to impchition. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that many fortunes had been ruined in the diplomatic line, so that the allowance could not be deemed too great. Mr. F. ROBINSON said, that the fees at Rio Ja r.eiro went to the Contribution Fund, which did not go into the pocket of the Consul, but was applied to vario3s other purposes. Mr. ARBUTHNOT stated, that the individuals in question had served many years, and were far ad vanced in life. Mr. W. SMITH knew many cases in which the Consuls had very small duties to perform. Mr. HUME said, that in general the Consuls were Merchants, and that half of the expense could be reduced. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that in many cases the Consuls had no salaries at all. In France only one of our Consuls had a salary. On the Vote of £25,000 for Toulonese, Knights of Yalta, and Corsicarr Emigrants, Colonel DAVIES said, that when the Royal Fa mily of France was restored to the Throne, the claims ofahese men had ceased. He wished to know, if the Count Pozzo di Borgo, the Russian Ambassador at Paris, received a pension from our Government ? Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, he had at one time re ceivecf a pension, but did not receive it now. Colonel DAVIES stated. that he must oppose the grant of £lO,OOO to the Toulonese. To the grant of £BOOO to the Knights of Malta he must also ob ject, as many of them had married, and consequently ceased to be Knights of Malta. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, that Count Pozzo di Borgo had received a pension when he was an emi grant, but not since. The Toulonese emigrants stood on a different footing from others, as they received pensions for services done to this country. As to the Maltese Knielts, it was not meant to continue their pensions. 'the amount of them was froM £3,000 to £4,000. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the allowance to the Toulonese consisted in pen sions to Naval Officers, as Lord Hood had taken away all the ships from Toulon. Mr. BENNETT said that the King of France ought to pay the Toulonese, if they preferred his Govern ment to that of the day. Mr. GOULBURN stated that the Toulonese had rendered a great service to this country, and we were bound to stand by the promises we bad made them. Mr. AItBUTHNOT said the grant would not be proposed in future. On the Vote of £BB,OOO for the Thames Police and Horse Patrol, Mr. BENNETT said he should not object to the vote ; but it was his opinion that the whole could be much improved against anothes year. Mr. W. SMITH complained of the ine ffi cient state _ of the Police. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, at one time the Police had been defective; but that had been owing to the Horse Patrol, and a great part of the rest of the Police, being brought down to Westmin ster. The Police had been much increased. There has been lately a new distribution of the Police, and a great diminution of crimes. The vote was for an increased force. Mr. BENNETT agreed in the propriety of the plan that had been adopted, and said the Police had now become preventive. In answer to a question from Mr. Hume, Mr. CLIVE said he would lay the accounts rela tive to the Police before the House to-morrow. On the vote for Henry the Seventh's Chapel, Mr. BENNETT wished to know who received the money for seeing the monuments in Westminster Abbey ? The state of the monuments was disgrace ful to the Dean and Chapter, and formed a marked contrast to the state of the Cathedrals in the country and abroad. Sir CHARLES LONG agreed in what had fallen from the Honourable Gentleman ; and it was a source of much mortification that the monuments, after the expense bestowed on them, were so miserably neg lected. He could only state that the Government were in no way to blame. He was glad the subject had been mentioned, Mr. W. SMITH said that part of the Cathedral belonged to the Dean and Chapter; and it was de sirable to know how much of the vote of £2,400 was to be applied to that part of Westminster Abbey ? He had heard that the revenues of St. Paul's had been so much mismanaged as not to be adequate to repair the cross and the ball. He had also heard that the present Dean of St. Paul's had, at his own expense,. made the requisite alterations. The building of St. Paul's had, at different times, cost the country a mil lion. When he attended the funeral of the late Pre sident of the Royal Academy, the appearance of St. Paul's struck all present as disgraceful. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the Chapel of Henry VII. had been always re paired by the Crown, or by Parliament. lie ad mitted the truth of what had been stated ; but the Dean and Chapter had expended €lO,OOO of their own money in the repairs of the Abbey. The Resolution was agreed to. Upon the motion for a grant for the Establish ment at Sierra Leone, Mr. WILLIAM SMITH took occasion to say, that the individual appointed as Chief Commissioner for Sierra Leone was a man who had received no re gular education, and who was wholly incompetent to discharge the duties. Sir George Collyer, the Commanding Officer on that station, had declared that Mr. Gregory's imbecility had contributed in a great measure to defeat the objects of the Commission. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that be had transferred the appointment of the Commissioners into the hands of the distinguished individual at the head of the Admiralty, and of Sir C. Robinson, the Advocate-General, who were best able to select per sons of professional ability. With regard to Sierra Leone, no individual could be found, who was willing to accept the appointment at £l5OO a-year, and the salary was consequently increased to £BOOO a-year, with a retiring pension of £BOO. Such was the dread of the climate, that even then no professional Gent* man could be found to accept the appointment, and Sir William Scott accordingly recommended it to be given to some intelligent commercial individual.— The idea of a residence in Sierra Leone was so uni vet sally supposed to carry along with it the idea of death, that he had never had a more terrific piece of patronage at his disposal!—(A laugh).—He could not but deprecate the course which the Hon. Gentleman had taken, in deciding upon the merits of Mr. Gre gory on the mere dictum of a Naval Officer. SMITH disclaimed having imputed any par tiality to the Noble Lord in making the appointment. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that with all deference to the statements of Sir W. Scott and Sir C. Robinson , it was scarcely credible that there could be any diffi culty in finding a Gentleman of regular education in the profession of the law, to fill an appointment of C3OOO a-year, with a retn ing pension of £BOO a-year. The profession of the law was by no means in so flou rishing a state, that among the junior branches of it such an appointment would not be most readily ac cepted. He had no doubt that, when the statement made by the Noble Lord went forth to the Public, it would excite considerable astonishment, and produce this good effect at least, that when the Noble Lord should look out hereafter among the profession, some tenders would be made to him, which would enable him to get a better Judge, or the same Judge, at a lower salary. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he cer tainly had not advertised the appointments, but they had remained a long time at the disposal of Sir W. Scott ; and if there were so abundant a shoal of aspir ing young Lawyers, as the Hon. and Learned Gen tleman supposed, it was certain that they did not bite very fast !—(Laughter).—Resolution agreed to. On the Vote of £lOO,OOO for the new street from Mary-la-bonne to Charing-cross, Mr. HUME asked two questions with respect to a charge of £ll,OOO for law expense, architects and surveyors, and a sum of £l2OO for new salaries, when it had been understood that the whole service was to be discharged by the Commissioners for Woods and Forests. Mr. HUSKISSON said he had no objection to lay the particulars of the law expenses before the House, and with regard to the new salaries they had been rendered necessary by the great extent of the labours which had devolved upon the Commissioners. After a few'words from Mr. W. SMITH, the Reso i lution was agreed to. On the Vote for the Cape of Good Hope, Mr. G. BENNETT asked whether any further en couragement had been given to the new Settlers in the Cape of Good Hope ? Mr. GOULBURN replied in the negative. Mr. W. SMITH observed, that it w as c r most importance, that every means shoula sorted to to prevent the extension of s!avery 7 , :1: - ; Cape of Good Hope. Mr. GOULBURN said, be entirely concurred w 77, the Hon. Gentleman, and that no pet:A.l6o n , 41 been omitted to accomplish that cresildble obje ct . Sir R. WILSON thought it worth the coa iki ,. a. tion of Government, whether it would not be while to purchase the few remaining slaves in 6 4 Colony ?—The Resolution was then agteed to. On the vote for building Churches and Gielte Hou se; Mr. HUME expressed a hope that no m ore mono would be required from Parliament for that puri.n., ; until they had ascertained what was done with 14 First Fruits and Tenths. Mr. BENNETT said, not only the List N. 4 and Tenths, but, in his opinion, the whole 0, 4 ,4 Establishment must undergo an investig.aio n hit t next Session. After a few words from Lord MILTON, the R ata lotion was agreed to. On the Resolution for granting L . 7,000 fo r , 5 . ,1„ , ing Proclamations in Ire land,- Mr. BENNETT adverted to the w: , 4 prevailed in Ireland o(giving these Ploclamation, : , particular Newspapers, as he believed for p purposes. As a proof of which, a Proclanwins4 Laing to Carlow was not inserted in the Carta*, , t in the Inniskillen Newspaper, published abov e 6 miles distant. The lion. Member adverted to tt stances in which Proclamations, having only t „.„ three months to run from the date of th em , „..! inserted in Papers five or six months after th e i r long after they could, by possibility, have any d m He verily believed this was done a, a bongs totem; Papets to induce them to abuse those individua.s;f 4 were obnoxious to Government. tie was convit o : of this by the vile, gross, and abominable abase her Majesty which has been inserted in differ( Papers thus patronised—( Hear, hear). Mr. GRANT assured the Hon. Member on no such principle as that upon which he;, mented. This was not a new grant. It had for years, and the sum taken yearly had been He had this year taken only £ . 7,000, • in hop, ing able, by adopting the course pursued in country, of sending Treasury Messengers bute Proclamations, considerably to reduce branch of public expenditure. Mr. HUME thought th t the only way of an end to the system was by refusing the - cially as many sums voted under diffirent were applied to the same purpose of corruption. had alluded some time ago to the inst.— Times Newspaper, fmm which Government thought proper to withhold all their adverti This was the more reprehensible, as Minister have known that the circulation of the r extensive as to render it an important in the giving publicity to any act. That paid no less a sum than £50,000 to Gc the course of the last year. Mr. DAWSON regretted that Government lished their advertisements in Ireland in most obscure and useless, as well as the temptible and odious Journals, that ever lished—he meant the Hibernian Journal It had lately sent forth abuse upon the et. Mr. Grattan, whose memory would ever be and revered' by every Irishman who loved try—(Cheers).—lt roused the indignation of man in the country, that even the name of ,* and good than should appear in this paltry at, temptible Journal—(Hear, hear).—And during late discussion upon the Catholic Question, it mined paragraphs calci.lated to stir up the - Ireland into acts of open rebellion—(Loud Mr. GRATTAN said, on the Paper in was not now disposed to waste an observation. had seen the paragraph alluded to by the able Gentleman opposite, and at the spur meat he was induced to reply to it. He the attention of the Right Honourable (Mr. Grant) would be directed to the subject; was unbecoming that the chat acters of men their lifetime deserved well of their country, when dead, be subjected to unmerited obl..quy. Mr. DENMAN corroborated the statement respect to the Times, and wished to know • Secretary to the Treasury was prepared w deny No answer being given, Mr. HOBHOUSE wished to know wt. House were to infer from the silence of the ment that the statement was true?—ENo anst Lord MILTON—" Surely the Chancellor Exchequer will give some answer!" No answer was given, and the grant Sir ROBERT WILSON said, as the hour late, and as many items would be brougl that were likely to create discussion, he would be prudent to adjourn the debate. At the request of Mr. GRANT, he - the remaining Irish Estimates be gone the On the proposed grant for the Police ..., Mr. HUME expressed a desire that this stand over, as he had some observations to upon the agistrates. Mr. GRANT said, it was his intention ' next year a Bill to regulate them : at Magistrates were divided into distric, chosen by the Government, and twelve by poration, three of whom were Barristers Sheriffs' Peers. Mr. HUME said, that under these he shonld not oppose it. On the proposed grant for the, Mr. GRANT said, it was the in. Gdvermnent to consolidate the two departve` England and Ireland into one. Mr. GRATTAN complained of the imt.. bee of barracks kept up in Ireland, and also frequent use of the military power. By this the civil power had almost gone out of use; dier was employed upon eve: f occasion ; but resolute Gentlemen would, in his opinion, do so quell any disturbances that might a rise,, department considerable reduction might be Mr. GRANT said Government were to dispose of.as many old barracks as ecostible' Mr. HUME said, there were in the city at the Royal Barracks, a Barrack-master puty Barrack-master. One of those, Sir was, he understood, a renowned " City and a red-hot loyalist—(Laughter). He' 'u t ,ht he knew, be a good kind of man; .. p, ed in ) different) t. Member be acx which he had int. It had era ty had been L'9,3; , 00, in hopes oil se pursued in • ; essengers to uh y to reduce inly way of p ' ;Mg the grant, ler different h of corruption. ' the instance of Government eir advertiseme,r as 'Ministers sn of the Times wit ntant instrumem. . That Net fr 0 to Governmen Government • eland in one of 1 as the mostc that ever was Journal—(Hsi on the charace id ever be est • vho loved hist& dignation of err name of that this paltry and .—And during • c Question, it stir up the peopk n—(l.oud them) Paper in questiw to observation. • to by the Hoi the spur of the c it. He rick w • sourable Gent] o the subject; fa cters of men who eir country, sh erited oblwguy. the statement to know whether . repared to deny it: k enc n e o of w t u h -h e etlser dj Gov erj t?—ENo answer., • e Chancellor of t 4• r!" grant was agree as the hour was be brought f' ssion, he though' , :t debate. he consented to e gone through. x Police and Wa ire that thin bservations to intention to in , rem : at pogo istricts—twelve I twelve by the Barristers and r these circ , Barrack Dee ts! ' ti xt ' f e w t o b i e n d t i en e t z ti tte lti o l erse etb: land, and also t ewer, By thi s sc ; ,e out of use; , occasion ; but a his opinion, d 0... n ight arise, and ' 3t ,a , tion might be . nt were endeo arks as possible' in the city of ' lc k-master and those, Sir Bd. . riled " CRY l inl q.l itcr). He rrli g hE ' A nr man; but .