Star. — London, England, 1821-04-06 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 5. The House sat in a Committee of Privileges on the Strath more Peerage, at three o'clock, when Mr. Mier opened the case. The Committee then adjourned to this day senuight. • On the motion of the LORD Cliaireva.oa, the judgment of the Coutt of Session in Scotland, on the ease of " Dennistoun v. Lille," was confirmed by their Lordships. Mr. Mason, from the Directors of the East India Company, presented the third Report W the Resolutions of the Directors for granting Salaries, Pensions, and Compensations.—Laid , on the table. The Regent's Canal Bill, and another Private Bill, were brought up from the Commons, and read a first time. The Innkeepers' Bill went through a Committee. Lord Al ELY ILLE presented a Petition from Queen's Ferry against the Roman Catholic Claims. The Archbishop of CANTERBURY presented a Mition from the Clergy of the Deanery of Canterbury against the Ca tholic Bill.—The Right • Reverend Prelate said he bad another Petition to the same effect from the Clergy of the Deanery and Prebendary of Norwich. He thought it necessary to state, that the reason why this Petition had fallen into his hands, was, that the Right Rev. Prelate wjto had intended to present it, could not come down that day. The Petition was most respectably signed. It was besides signed by persons with whom he had long lived in a state of intimacy, and for whom he bad the highest respect. Ile should therefore move that the Petitions be read. They were read accordingly ' • the prayer was, that the Bill for granting Priv il eges to the Roman Catholics might not pass into a law. LordIROLLE presented a Petition from the Rector, Church wardens, &c. of the Parish of St. George,in the City of Exeter, against the Roman Catholics. The Earl of CA RN ARVON moved for the attendance of certain persons, whose names he mentioned, to give evidence be: fore the House on the Orarupound Disfranchisement liiil.—Or dered.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. stilts which their labours procliced, they were eon fined to a solitary, and truly a wise Resolution— namely, That all game was the property of him on whose land it was found." The Committee stopped there. It was not true, that if the restrictions were taken off, no game could be bad ; such an assertion could be made only by those, who were ignorant of the way in which game was procured,%iid who, on, like him (Colonel Wood), were acquainted with the practices of poachers—(A laugh).—The poulterers .would have the game at any rate. The making the sale of it unlawful did not diminish , the quantities sold. This was comparatively a recent enactment, and its operation hitherto had not been very success ful ale had said modern, because it was only so late as the reign of George the Second that the sale cf game was prohibited by law. But, though he did not attribute much good to that law, he was not now to be understood as advising its repeal. His sugges tion would be, to repeal the present law, and make game private property. He would also mark more strongly the qualification of a legalized sportsman. At present, it was hard to say who was qualified or who was not. He would not have two sets of laws, one for the poor man and another for the rich. The unqualified Gentlemen ought to be severely pu nished when they sported without a license. In ano ther view of the subject, he would raise the certifi cate from its present amount of £3 10s. to five guineas. He censured the practice of families in town buying game, who might punish for the mode in which it was procured in the country. He also objected that Gentlemen were in the habit of making a sale of game, by exchanging it occasionally tor' fish, venison, and other luxuries; but this was. in fact, a sale of game, for the poulterer re-sold it again, to others of his customers. The Game Laws were a complicated subject, and he hoped that a Committee of the House would be appointed to inquire wheie the evil lay, and apply some remedy to it. He would be the last man to limit the country Gentleman in his amusements, and he regretted, with others, that so many of his countrymen spent their fortunes in foreign parts. It ought not, however, to be over looked, that though this was an amusement to be kept up, yet it was also the means of crowding the jails yearly with criminals, and that it was very Alen the first step in vice. _ _ The Regent's Canal Bill was read the third time and passed. Mr. DOWNIE presented a Petition from the Corn Mer chants and others therein concerned, of Stirling, against the Bill for the regulation of the Corn Averages.—Referred to the Com mittee on Agricultural Distress. Mr. Srrjeant ONSLOW presented a Petition from certain Solicitors of Ireland, praying that the Bill now pending in the Iloilo: for facilitating the admission of Attornies to practice in the Courts, who had taken degrees in the Universities of England, might he extended to persons having taken degrees in the Uni versity of Trinity College, Dublin.—Laid on the table.—lle gave notice, that he would add a clause to the Bill to this effect. A Petition was laid on the table from the Corn Merchants of Glasgow, against the Corn Average Bill. Mr. F. PALMER presented a Petition from the Agricultu ralists of Biggleswade, complaining of Agricultural Distress.— lleferred to the Committee. Mr. BASTARD vresented a Petition to a similar effect front the Agriculturalists of the Southern parts of the County of Devon.—Referred to the Committee. Mr. H. CLIVE laid on the table the third Report et the Commissioners on Weights and Measures, which was ordered Mr. DOUGLAS (a new Member) spoke s against the motion, and declared that, to such an extent had poachers increased, that if the restrictions were en tirely taken off, there would be no game left in the kingdom at the end of a year. to be printed. On the motion of Sir Inns Wismar a Return was ordered of the Amount of Customs collected at the different Ports of Ireland for a certain time. Sir J. MACKINTOSH gave notice, that on Tuesday next be would move for leave to bring in a Bill fur the Reformation of the Criminal Cude. It was his intention merely to have the Bill brought in, read the first time, and printed, and to put a l the discussion till Thursday, the 3d of May. Mr. C. CALVERT moved for a Return of the Number of Prisoners confined, by order of the Court of Requests of South wark, in the Borough Compter, for the last three years, distin guishing the number in each year, and the amounts of Debts by Sir C. BURRELL objected to any change in the present Game Laws. He thought that, in the de pressed state of the country, it would be unjust to deprive the country Gentlemen of their only solace and comfort—(A laugh).—As to making property a qualification for killing game, he thought more in convenience would arise from inquiring into this test, than existed under the present system. It would be also most unbecoming and offensive, when a country Gentleman had asked a friend to his house, to inquire of him, in the first place, whether his property was such as to qualify him for killing game? Mr. LOCKH ART reprobated the conclusion to which the former Committee had come, who had made game property, but had not given any opinion on the most difficult part of that question, namely, to whom that property belonged. He admitted that the great preserves supplied the poachers daily, but he did not think making game property would cure the evil. There could be no preserving game with out supposing it some sort of property. With regard to what was said of the poachers having no distinct idea of whom the property was vested in, and their urging that as a justification for their trespass, he thought that was a sophisticated argument, suggested by the ingenuity of country attornies. If game was made property it would lead to numberless incon veniences. At present the greater part of the pro perty of land was in the lessees—the farmers—and, he asked, would the House give to the farmer the exclusive property of the game ? Another incon venience arising from snaking game property would be, that the inhabitants of cities and large towns would be absolutely debarred the recreation of shoot lug, as they could not set their foot on any man's land without incurring the consequence of a letter from an attorney. Mr. BENET? (Wiltshire) was averse from in creasing the severity of the Game Laws; for he thought too many commitments had already taken place in consequence of their operation. What be would suggest would be, that game should be made so cheap that it would not be worth the poacher's attention to run the risk of procuring it illegally. He thought great good might be done by a Committee, and he would therefore give the motion of the Noble Lord hi; support. Mr. COKE, jun. spoke against the Committee. He thought no good result could flow from it. He was no advocate for the present Game Laws, but he would not, on any account, give to the sports of the country Gentleman a sordid character—(Hear, hear).—The present system was full of inconsistencies and incon veniences, but it was of long standing, and,he did not think this the time to make any alteration in it. It was not only due to the country Gentleman, but it was also good policy riot to circumscribe him of those amusements which attached him to his country. Mr. WARRE thought that no legislative measure would put an end to the practice of poaching ; for though some families might, from scruple, abstain from purchasing Game, yet so strong was the temp tation that the majority would be ready to purchase it, not caring how it was proctsred. He was for the Committee. Dlr. HU hIE postponed the motion which stood for yesterday, and which lapsed in consequence of the House not meeting, to Tuesday next, respecting the disquali fi cation of Officers belong ing to the Ordnance Department from sitting in that House. The Committee on the Stamp Duties Acts was postponed to this day. Mr. LUSHINGTON laid on the table an Account of the Produce of the Excise Duties. GAME LAWS. Lord CRANBOURNE rose to bring forward his motion, of which he had given notice, for an altera tion in the Game Laws. He was sure the House would agree with him, that that state of the law with resi.ect to Game, which filled their jails yearly with culprits, without producing any diminution of the.crime, required to be substantially altered. After a few further observations, the Noble Lord moved, that a Committee be appointed to inquire into the state of the Game Laws, and report their observa tions to the House. Sir J SEBRIGHT seconded the motion. He thought that any alteration in those laws must be a benefit; for a set of laws more cruel, inefficient, and altogether more repugnant to the human mind, could not exist. . Sir J. SHELLEY begged to remind the House, that a Bill was brought in some time since for a similar purpose by the Honourable Member for Ilettfordshire, and even backed by his great talents, it failed. But the Noble Lord, seeing that that Hon. Member missed his fire, would whip up his jacket, and have a shot at the laws himself. He disapproved entirely of the motion, and would give to it every opposition in his power. Sir J. YORKE said, that he was neither sports man nor killer of game, but was an eater of game I laugh).—He was not at all thankful to the. Hon. Member for Corfe Castle, for the Bill which he in troduced for the amendment of the Game Laws, for he believed that since the passing of that Bill, he (Sir J. Yorke) had not had a second course dish at his table—(A laugh).—He should hope, that in any Bill brought in upon this subject, a clause would be introduced, which would enable a man, when his wife would say to him, " My dear, what shall we have for dinner ; shan't we have some game ?" to reply, " Aye, my dear, we shall have a pair of par tridges"—(A laugh). After a few words from Mr. Winssr, Mr. BANKES stated his objections to the motion. He thought the Noble Lord laid no ground before the House for this particular measure so He had considered the subject of these laws with great at tention, and was of opinion that no alteration would place the country under a better system of Game Luis. He would have no objection to have a Bill brought in for the amendment of a particular part of the Laws. If it was left open for every one to kill.,tame, there certainly would be an end to poachers, but not a pheasant would be alive in the country in twelve months hence. It was necessary to keep the game for .certajaisersons only, for the amusement of fowlinkc Was one of the inducements which endeared the English Gentleman to his home. taking tha.t.away4e..'was. placed bekaw persons of4tis own own class e p;gl .1401: other- countries in . Europe' He was a.gamsythe motion. Colonel WOOD was one of the former Committee vlsiC44atanclMade their Report to the House on this subject. and which Repoli sem lying on the.table.— He had no great respect for the memory of that Committee, for, in plain turd], very many of the suggestions which he (Colonel Wood) made to them, they entirely disregarded—(A laaz,h).—As to the re ' Lord LOWTHER spoke agaimt the motion, Mr. HARBORD said, a More absurd, more unjust, or more unnecessary code Orlavii never were framed than the present Game Laws, They had produced hardships and perjury without end, and for what pur pose? . For the exclusive preservation of that to a few which ought Co belong to aW—(Ticar,. heizr).— ' He would vote for the Committee, hoping that some thing might be suggested in . their stead. He thought, at least, that they might be so simplified, as that the offences under them might be better understood. It was said, indeed, as a reason for keepiag the Game exclnsiveist.hat the country Gentleman was strongly attache.) to his country. Touching this argument he (Mr. Harbord) would say but a word, which was— that if a Gentleman had no inducement to keep him at home but the recreation or shoeting pheasants, . recommend a Tar on Hot and Green-hott•e,, as in 'substitute for the Tax in question. He wculd re. a not have , h ). ave anything to regret commend to his Ho noura..le Friend (Str. Careers) t o t i i l s Lo a co b r ie un d absence — (Hear, I postpone the Mot ion till after the Report of die divided, when the numbers were— RNE replied.—The House then - . 52 ' Agricultural Committee. Mr. DAVENPORT said he should vote for there peal ; buthe wished the Motion to be put off till til t Report of the Committee had been made. Mr a. lIENETT (of Wilts) said, the Tax amounted to two and a half per cent. on Agriculturists. H e thought Hot-houses already sufficiently used. H e should support the Motion. Lord BELGRAVE, from under the gallery, also supported the Motion, and took the opportunity or asking the Chancellor of the Exchtsuer, whether it - - was true that the Colleges and Public Seminaries did not contribute their proportion to the Window Tar?. If it were so, he should shortly submit a Motion oft the subject, conceiving that the exemption Was ets; tirely improper. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER sa i,l undoubtedly the .Colleges did pay Vk indow Tax, being rated in proportion to the number of ap a i ments in occupation. Mr. on C . aJa understanding n s d ee ing ingthtah.te:atrees uponmp ‘ er vthhei o ci f : t r l i l b: e llse ll iu o gosev; and of the Report, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be disposed to extend relief to the Agricultural h oe , rest, by a modification of ring heavily and mischievously on them, would have D a hesitation in withdrawing his Motion—(Hear, he r o from Lord Castlereagh). The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the Committee on Agriculture might attach much importance to this Tax, and he therefore wished to wait for the Report; but if pressed, he should o% pose the Motion. • Sir THOMAS LETHBRIDGE stated, that lutist part of the country with which he was acquaints:l, the repeal of the Tax in question would be a mighty boon. lie was afraid that the Report of the Agnad ttual Committee would not be soon nude. • Mr. GIPPS wished the Member for Cumberland would wait for the Report of the Committee. Mr. RICARDO should vote for the repeal of thk Tax, upon the same principle that he had voted fo r the repeal of the Malt Tax ; not that th e y were b ad Taxes in themselves, but to prove to the countrythe the House was attentive toecononsy —(1 lear,hear),—.: If it were true that the Monarchs of Europe had be. come corn -merchants, he thought there soul.' bet better chance of making a good bargain with them; but as they would only take bullion, which we lad not to give them, it was a srong reason why wesboali grow our own corn. Mr. BARING thought that the HOWOrable net (Lethbridge) who had voted all the Loans toGo vernment, came now with a baj grace to cheat: (ft he could use no milder term) those frani whom the money had been borroWed-L(//eardkotri---The Sinking Fund had been wholly abandoned try the Sir nisters of the day ; and he wishid. to get rid of Air delusion with which it had heereserrounded. Butte ) say that there should 'be no Sinking Fund, .was same as to say there should be no public credit; or, in other words, that we should go on to borrow at long as there were fools to lend—(fhar o hear),,—.No one had asserted that the repeal'ot . theTat..would afford *material relief. The great security of the coot. try .was in its &dances and, in-the event of a war, it would . be of more advantage thrvour armies or flees. Mr. CALCRAFT was as anxious ys any ms i a keep up the finances of the country; hut he must look to thelneans-ef the country,_ to see if a,serplus fool could be keet.np. At the present time he, tnougbt this . Tai should be given up. He would look* if redwetiomt.yould" not be made.its the Army Ad Dravyi:ssidshr that way a Sinking. Fund be kept op. Money' was iii ch safer in the - hands of 'the People than in Atie.hands of the Corttmissioners for the Rs. duction or the National Debt. In consequence d what .had fallen fronr.the Chancellor of the Enke quer, he should recommend the motion to be aids drawn: A sum fully eqoal,to this Tax, or the Mak Ta, might be saved by reduction. Lord MILTON was.of opinion that public cask would be better supported by leaving the money Ind* pockets of the people, than by taking it out of thew. He thought Ministers were not aware of cheated of the distress. He feared too much importatownt attached to the Agricultural Committee. But that Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to have formal an opinion of his own. He would recommend to& 'Chancellor of the Exchequer to allow the Bill to be brought in, and the second-reading not to be ptetsi till a Report should be made from the Coalmine. Ile had bend, that in one of the Southern Cowin , a large track of land was about to be abandoned by the tenant, in consequence of the operation -4 dig Tar. He thought the repeal of this Tat would ben gre; i t r e . r e b u oo li n l‘ to E t N lie fe fa lt nn it c h r is ch d a u n ty th t a of ot give M e s viity al . t Tmz im should the Committee delay their Report to.a digit period, he should feel himself at libertyagaitstobrig the subject before the House. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQU EI wished to wait for the Report of the Committee, w see if he was justified in taking so glat . a sum bew the revenues Of the country. Mr. BRIGHT' would oppose any attempt Wob' I stitute another Tax for that in question. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEV PR o---t i . he would reserve to himself the power Of rari - i . another Tax, and tile House would have icicles,'" to which of the two-it would prefer. . Oh After a few words from Mr. 1). BROWNE and C. SMITH, • should d b A e said,L g T iv H en O b ll y P thc, hathiaticeulni!eris ofa thedisu'Ene i c pitag .. : as to the abandonment Of the Tat; he should 4101... the House. The gallery was clearted v trstaodivisiontwokisli and the Motion was..withdrawn.. CAM VAYNIESTS. On the Order ortte Ds' wing movedhif rrir, House going. into at f..:onxirittee tbe `"". Payments Bill, bjeet to be 41. Mr. BARING conceited the . ;ll . 6 importance, consider it. l i tt s t jlo te lzi ‘fi m iti o st ve e it n .t t b re u a a t t a h 4 e .i i n i s n t o l licsect Of tif )riL° the Committee to reconsider the Pt A 4 19, with Id hxe ton a view v to ablelo .d which c the Act Act u of the public intetqt, • . • • . • aritEi The CHANCELLOR , hoped the House would adhere to the t v i i ii n e e. rei tt; b For the Committee - Against it - - - Majority _ ARMY ESTIMATES. - - - -34 On re-admission to the gallery, M 1;. RUHR and Lord CASTLEREAOH were engaged in a conversation respecting the discussion of the Army and Navy Estimates on Friday next. The Noble Lord declined a suggestion of the Hon. Member, for bringing on these Orders on separate nights, viz. the Navy on Friday, and the Army on some future day. REPEAL OF THE TAX ON HUSBANDRY HORSES. Mr. CURWEN rose to make his promised motion respecting the Repeal of all Duties on Husbandry Horses. These taxes pressed heavily on the small farmer in particular. They were more direct in their operation, and, therefore, more immediately felt than the Taxes on. Beer and. Malt. Small as was their produce, the good effects of taking off this tax would be acknowledged. He did not expect that its in fluence in relieving the Agricultural Interest would he very extensive, yet-it would be a great ho as to the smaller farmer. It was a custom, indeed it was a law, to charge a farmer for a saddle horse, if he was known to have used any of his horses on any oc casion in that way. Now, it happened that there were few farmers who did not, at one time or other, ride some of their horses, but surely the law only meant to bear on those who kept the horse exclu sively f.a. the purpose of riding. Again, the horse which worked the plough was charged. The plough itself might as well have been taxed, so might the spade, or the loom ; but was it not against the rules of political economy to tax implements of trade or. husbandry? The working horse, he asserted, was an implement of husbandry. The tax was unequal, because the pasture lands did not pay a shilling. Here, then, was the party least able to pay taxed se verely, whilst his more opulent neighbour was left untouched. Suppose a poor man with a farm of 50 acres of clay land : he requires four horses to till this, in some counties more; he has some little busi-, ness, perhaps, occasionally to ride one of his horses ; and what is the consequence ?—for the three working' horses he pays 17s. each, and for his riding horse 1.:2 10s. He is also charged 10s. 61 for a groom, though perhaps the horse had never been rubbed with a wisp of straw, or if he had, it was done with the farmer's own bands. Besides this, there was the greatest inequality in some of the counties in Eng land, as to the time when the ploughing season could begin. He asked the Honourable Member for Nor. folk (Mr. Coke) if there were not in the year full 60 days more for ploughing in Norfolk, than there were in his (Mr. Curwen's) county (Cumberland)? In or der to shew the hardship of taxing a man for a sad dle horse, becauseat one time or other of his life he rode his horse, perhaps, for pleasure, he told a curi ous story of what had happened, not long since, in Cumberland. An old man, who, in his early days, had been a great fox-hunter, but who was subse quently reduced, was going to market with some commodities, the produce of his little farm. He jogged on lazily enough, until the thrilling cry of a pack of hounds, at no great distance, struCkillrear: The spirit of his youth revived—he flung away his cabbages and turnips, and despising alike tax-makers and tax-gatherers, he made his steed sweep the plain in all the pride of the chase. But the reckoning day was to come about—the poor fox-hunter was not. to , bear away the brush with imp Unity—an informer beard the tale, and made it known at head-quarters —the poor man was taxed for his spirit, and never was tax exacted more unfeelingly. This was only one instance of the hardships which these taxes- pro duced. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would consent to their repeal, and he way sure the Right Honourable Gentleman would find no difficult; in getting a substitute for them. The Legislature ought not to discourage the cultivation of poor soils; for, in his opinion, the poor soils supplied two monthi ° corn to the country. The Monarchs of Europe were now become the corn merchants; and he asked, would they take our manufactures in return? The King of Denmark had now a large stock of corn in Holland, and suppose we should want it, which he hoped we never should,. would he take our hardware or pottery in return ? If these men. were thrown out of work, they should be provided for in some other way; and he asked, were the landholders Able to bear any more burthens? The Honourable Member then took occasion to object to the mode of sun: charging, and amongst other things, he said, that if a farmer put a metallic axletree to his cart, which would enable one horse to do the work of three, he had to pay for it as a gig, the tax being £6 12s. for a gig. Ile hoped the Noble - Lord would not refuse to make some abatement in this tax, and at least he thought its operation ought to be more equal, and, indeed, he would recommend all taxes to be taken off the necessaries of life. He would have an In come tax of five per cent. obtained. He would give his cordial and hearty support to a tax of five per cent. upon incomes, as it would bring in the fund holder as well as the agriculturist. It also appeared to him that considerable advantages might be de rived from taking off the tax upon salt, malt, soap, and leather. What could be more severe than a tax imposed upon articles consumed by paupers? Yet it was an undoubted fact, that this tax amounted to the sum of £2,000,000 and upwards. The present system of taxation was most injurious to the morals of the poor. He must also observe, that by the land falling off in value, the small towns in the country must suffer materially. The Right Honourable Gen tleman ought to begin the work of retrenchment by giving his boon to the farmer. The Honourable Member concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill for the Repeal of so much of the 48th of Geo. 111. and the 2d of Geo. IV. as imposes a Duty upon Agricultural Horses, and. upon Horses employed to convey Coaland Sand. Sir W. W..WYNN said, that the Tax fell heaviest on poor lands, and on those in which the carriage of manure was most difficult. Sir CH AXLES BURRELL observed, that the Tax fell peculiarly heavy on the poor lands; and in many cases it was ithpossible to 'substitute oxen for horses. He hoped Government would take the subject into their serious consideration. The Tax was wry un equal; and, in some grounds that paid fi ve pounds I per acre, nothing was paid for this Tax. He would