Star. — London, England, 1823-02-05 00:00:00

of persons had been habitual absentees from 66 1 1 estates in Ireland, and that no small share of the atievances by which Ireland had been afflicted arose to NM their absence. He therefore hoped they would go back, and by their presence and example assist in bringing about an ameliorated state of things in that country--( Hear, hear).—The Noble Earl next ad verted to the depressed state of the agricultural inte rest ; a calamity which, in some respects, might be attributed to an excessive impottation of grain in the years 1818 and 1819, and the abundant harvest which afterwards followed ; •also to the excess of cultivation in Ireland, and the change that had taken place in the currency of the country. Up t'h this time (said his Lordship) no effectual measure of relief had been adopted for the agricultural interest. There was not any mode of relief pointed out in his Majesty's Speech, nor could any proposition to that effect be brought forward that must not be sub ject to doubts and difficulties. It must be the duty, as well as the wish, of their Lordships to bring for• ward any plan of relief that might be practicable; but if no practicable plan could be adopted, it would only lead to disappointment and dissatisfaction to propose any. All that their Lordships, therefore, could now do on this subject was to express their thanks to his Majesty for the sentiments of regret which he had uttered in his Speech. His Majesty had most graciously expressed his satisfaction at the reception he had met with during his late visit to Scotland. No English Sovereign had antecedently visited that country, and he did not know that any thing had a happier effect in uniting and knitting to- gether the hearts of all his subjects, than such a visit on the part of the Sovereign. A lively feeling of loyalty was manifested towards his Majesty on that occasion, not only in Scotland, but in every part of the kingdom which his Majesty approached. He was persuaded that their Lordships would feel no difficulty in concurring with that part of the Address which noticed the efforts his Majesty had made for the general abolition of the Slave Trade. Many years ago the Parliament bad abolished that abomi• liable traffic; and everything that was great and enterprising, had been since exerted towards the com pletion of that important measure. Our Government had incessantly laboured to engage the different nations of Europe to abolish the trade ; they had sub nntted their proposition on that subject to the as sembled Sovereigns at Verona, and the illustrious Duke, who had so often fought in favour of liberty, did submit to them a plan for-its final abolition—the proposition that all ships trading in slaves should be considered as pirates; and this proposition was ad mitted at Verona, and sent to all the trading parts of Europe. It was fit that their Lordships should offer their congratulations to his Majesty on the flourish ing state of the Trade and Commerce of the country. On this part of the subject it was impossible to look but with satisfaction to the great events that were passing in the world, and the extensive Sources of trade that were now opened to this country in South America— a region of great extent, and rapidly-increasing im portance. He felt that he had already encroached ton much on their Lordships' time—(Hear, hear). — But he should not think he had discharged his duty, if he stated less than he had done on these momentous subjects. He trusted they would now carry to the foot of the Throne the expressions of their loyalty and support, and that, in doing so, they would be unanimous. He had the fullest hope that, by unani mity and moderation, they would surmount all the difficulties that impended over the country, and im prove upon the flattering prospects that were open to their view. His Lordship concluded with moving the Address to his Majesty, which, as usual, was an echo of the Speech. _ _ _ The Earl of MAYO seconded the Address. His Lordship expressed his satisfaction, connected as he was with Ireland, at the manner in which that coun try had been noticed, and wished to bear testimony to the good effect which had resulted from all that had already been dose of late in her behalf. The Address being read by the LORD CHAN.. CIOLLOR, and the question being put that the House do concur in the same, Earl STANIIOPE rose, and said it would not be -consistent with the dignity or duty of their Lordships to make their Address a mere echo of the Speech ; particularly so when the country was involved in un exampled distress, and when the necessity of relief was so pressing, that relief could not be delayed any longer. This was the third Session in which agricul tural distress was acknowledged to exist to the ut most possible extent; and yet no plan of relief had been adopted—every complaint had been unavailing. All that had been stated by the Noble Earl who moved the Address was, that no relief could be given. If the Noble Earl was sincere in his declaration, it was impossible for him to pronounce a severer satire on the Government than that declaration. Accord. ing to the decloations of Ministers, the beuntiei of PaovrostYcE were a calamity. For his own part, he could not conceive how abundant harvests could have the effect of lowering the prices of provisions ; and be defied any man to shew in what period of our his tory abundance had been a cause of distress. The price of corn had been reduced fifty per cent. and was there any abundance which could have produced such an effect as that? Besides, how could abun dant crops have produced a fall in every article of commerce and manufacture? Yet it would not be cpntended that there had been an increased supply of those articles. Importation could not now be alleged as a cause of agricultural distress, for importation bad long since ceased: nor was the alteration in the currency the cause of distress, for in all the articles of commerce there had been a fall of thirty-five per cent. a fall to which the depreciation of the currency bore no proportion whatever. When Mr. Peel intro duced his Bill, a great deal was said of the manu licturers t their distresses, however, did not arise frtim high prices, but want of employment; and when these unhappy persons assembled to complain of their distresses, the Six Acts were passed to re strain the liberties of the People. He could not agree with those who attributed the distress of the farmers to the diminution of the currency; for, in the year 79'2, the circulating medium was less, the prices of commodities were low, and yet the country was in state of unexampled prosperity. How could this be accounted for? The answer was very plain: the dif ference between the state of the country at that time and its present st.ttc arose from the difference in thel amount of the taxation. It had been falsely asserted Mat tie di;tresses'ef farmers 1 ad been occasioned by high rents. So far fro.n that being the case, - he could state to their Lordships instances occurring. in Essex and other counties, where tenants were in the habit of receiving premiums from their landlords, in order to induce them to cultivate the land, lest it should run to waste. He contended that the effects of the change in the currency had been to make the fundholder chargeable upon the produce of the earth, doubly more than he was entitled to. Looking upon it in this light, then, it was a nefarious act—a mea sure of robbery and injustice. Much was said of the necessity of preserving public faith, in every news paper that one met with ; but this consideration of how far keeping faith with one class of men at the expense and positive ruin of another, had -not hitherto been sufficiently attended to—(Near, hear). — Surely, if a system was continued which gave to the fundholder twice more than he was entitled to, it was taking from those who paid the taxes twice more than they were bound to pay, and was therefore un just. It was necessary then to equalize the pressure of the general burden in some degree, his own con viction being that a reduction of the dividends would contribute materially to the public advantage. So firmly impressed was he with this opinion, that he wished the subject to be the first which should en !gage their Lordships' attention. Ile was persuaded that the very agitation of the question would be pro ductive of good. The true way to consider it would he as a question between two individuals. When the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack had heard the arguments on both sides, he was sure that that Noble person—for whom he professed the highest regard, and than whom he believed no more impar tial Magistrate ever presided in that House—would be induced to retract the opinions which he had be fore delivered. Reverting to the Speech from the Throne, he was glad that a pledge was there held out for a reduction of taxation, though, whilst the present curt ency continued, he feared the amount in which it could be reduced must be limited. One thing, however, he wished to tell the Noble Earl and his colleagues, that if they did not reduce the taxes, the taxes would soon reduce themselves (Hear, hear). The sources of taxation were already nearly dried up, and those sums which had been hitherto afforded by comparative wealth, could no longer be wrung from the now unhappy and impoverished people. He had not the slightest hesitation in saying, that if the pre- sent sum of taxes, or anything near it, continued to be demanded, it must end in a national bankruptcy, and that, too, at no very distant period. He would have them avoid the ruin which was gaping at their feet, in time; but it was impossible to trifle with it. It could be done only in two ways—either by reduc ing full 40 per cent. upon all taxes, and payments by 1 contract entered into for any time, or by increasing in the same proportion the circulating medium of the country. If it was at all necessary to adduce proofs of how great a change had been made in the value of the currency within half a century, it would be only necessary to refer to the Resolution of the House, of Commons, which declared that a pound note and a shilling were equal in value to a guinea, at a time that guineas were selling for twenty-eight shillings a piece, and which sale it was found necessary to put a stop to, by a Bill brought into this House. This Re solution furnished incontrovertible proof of the de preciation of the currency, and it was idle any longer to deny that such a change in its value had taken place. Was it not reasonable, then, that contracts entered into under the influence of such a currency, should be made to accommodate themselves to the condition in which the currency now was ? To con tinue to make one party pay as many pounds now in fulfilment of any contract as when the same number of pounds were considerably less valuable, was mani festly unjust, as it imposed upon one party a burden which he was unable to bear, and gave to the other an advantage to which he was not entitled. These were some of the effects which it produced on private property. But there were cases in which it went much further, and where the injustice done would amount nearly to confiscation of the property impli cated by these contracts. If the Noble Lord had any doubts on the subject, he might satisfy himself by the best evidence. But it was said that the next effects of the change on the currency would be to produce a transfer of property from one hand to another. This position he denied. He denied that if property was rendered unproductive in one hand, it could be made more valuable in other hands, where more capital could be applied to enhance it. For if things had come to such a pass, from the pressure of taxes, and the multiplicity of other demands created by the pre sent circumstances of the times, that land produced no profit, then the addition of capital could not make it more productive, since its produce would be con sumed by taxes. And the corpus delicti of the charge which he brought against the Government was, that under the present state of things the land produced nothing. With a view then to the bettering of pro., petty, it was absurd to say that a transfer would be at all conducive. But, under any circumstances, he could not hear of a transfer without horror and in dignation, looking upon it, as he did, as a measure of the most frightful and gigantic ingratitude, and grossest injustice. Highway robbery was nothing but a forcible transfer of property. The blood-stained annals of the French Revolution, and the records of the reign of Napoleon Bonaparte, would teach a les son upon the effects of a forcible transfer of property. Any system bottomed upon the admission of such a doctrine, would be one of the greatest spoliations that ever disgraced the Government of any country. It would be the purport of his Amendment to set the matter in its true light before the country. It would be a motion to which he attached great importance, .as it appeared to him to embrace a question of the greatest consequence to the best interests of this coun try : he should prefaceit by saying that he meant to take no exception to the great authority of Parliament.— That the Parliament of this country did.and ought to possess great and extensive power, which it held in trust for, and exercised for the advantage of the People, from whom they originally derived it, was most undoubtedly true. In saying so, he took it for granted that the House of Commons represented the People, as it was not his wish at present to can', ass any defects which might be in the actual state of the House of Commons. Assuming, however, that this other House was what it ought to be, and admitting that it did represent the People. stiU he was much inclinedlo doubt whether any Parliament, however ccustitutcd, had a right to plunder one party to serve another—(ifedt)s—And if there was nn such right,. but that 'the claim of it was an assultiption of power on the part of Parliament, did there not some rights naturally belong tii an oppressed - and' injured People? It was in the power of Parli:intent,' by arise and moderate course, to save the People the necessity of using such a right. Against the continuance of the dreadful calamities to which he had referred, and which, if suffered to go on, would terminate in anarchy and misery, Parliament had a remedy in their own hands. That remedy was simply this—to act, in this great emergency, upon Constitutional principles—to follow the esamples set them by their ancestors in similar circumstances, and not to address the Throne until the grievances of which they corn • plained, and the pressure, which was become into lerable, had been redressed. In speaking thus, he addressed himself to Noble Lords of all parties. To those, on the one hand, who were opposed to Re form, when sought for on proper principles, he asked, did not the indisposition to identify themselves with the wishes of the People furnish the strongest argu ment for Reform ? For himself, he was friendly to Reform on proper principles, because he considered the mode iii which it was to be done as important as the Reform to be obtained. He did not go with those who thought that the Only evils being in close Bo roiieohs the throwing of them open would remove all complsints ; but he was, at the same time, op posed to that most mischievous of all projects, elec tion by universal suffrage, which would give all the weight to numbers, and rob property of its due in. fluence. To those, on the other hand, who were friendly to Reform, he would put it, whether the distress of the country being unattended to, things might not come to such a pass, that Reform could not amend them ? One great end, then, of his argument was, to secure public tranquillity, to promote public prosperity, and to prevent one class being sacrificed to the interests of another. Once more he would say seriously, that, if the taxes were not reduced, or the amount of the currency increased, the result would be, to give the farmers a relief which they never asked and never wished for, namely, the total anni hilation of the National Debt. He did not mean that it would be reduced to what was called an equitable adjustment of the public burdens, but that it would be annihilated altogether. He was not himself a funded proprietor, but he was a trustee for others, whose interests were as dear to him as his own. He had no interest one way or the other dehors his duty, and his wish to avert the calamity which was pend ing. But, unless they wished to make the People of England a nation of beggars and bankrupts—unless they wished to carry distrust, discontent, despair, and disaffection, throughout the Empire, and would render themselves an assembly of noble and titled paupers, whose degradation was rendered more strik ing when contrasted with their rank, they would agree to his amendment. He called upon them by every tie which could attach them to their country, and by every claim of duty which called upon them to pro tect the interests of those entrusted to their care, to institute an immediate inquiry into the causes of the present distress, devise some means of alleviating it, and so put a stop to the general ruin and desolation which was about to overspread the land. The Noble Lord concluded by moving an Amendment, " That this House has viewed with the deepest regret and anxiety, the severe and unexampled distress which now afflicts the whole country, and that they will immediately proceed to investigate its causes, the primary one of which they conceive to be the recent change made in the currency of the country, and apply such means as appear to them most effectual for affording relief' The Marquis of LANSDOWN was not indiffe rent to the topics of the Noble Lord who spoke last, but he could not then go the whole length with him, and therefore he should state the reasons why he thought the original Address should be carried un impaired and unamended. He thought there was that in the present crisis of Europe which should now alone arrest their Lordships' attention, and induce them to adjourn until another day the consideration of the other important subjects. Every man must see a crisis at hand, coming home to every free coun try, and to every freeman in Europe. Unless they were prepared to give up that interference to which they were bound by treaty and policy, they would be obliged to depart from that system which had dictated our policy with respect to - other independent 1 nations. He could have wished a more explicit, and stronger expression in the Speech, of the feelings of this country as to the system adopted by some fo reign Powers. Now that this system was avowed for a second time, it was a vain attempt of Ministers to palter with the sense of the House and the coun try, and not to express a plain and manly- declara tion of the indignation of the Government; the House, 'and the country. That might yet have some effect in averting the calamities with which Europe was but too plainly threatened at present. Let it he re membered, that our burthens and weakness, which now caused us to hesitate, were brought on througi restoring that Dynasty to the Throne, which was now totally unmindful of the right we chins to pro tect the independence . of other nations. It was most mortifying to think of this ; but he was sure he would not find an individual, pretending to the name of statesman, who would uphold the unprincipled sys tem proclaimed in the Speech of his Most Christian Majesty on the late opening of the two Chambers. It was, therefore, unnecessary for him to argue that point, nor the merits or demerits of the Spanish Con stitution. Whether it contained evils or not, if any thing could prevent its being remedied, it would be the effect on the mind of every honest and patriotic Spaniard, that it was to be attacked by an armed and invading enemy. Besides, the present Govern ment of Spain had been acknowledged by every Go vernment in Europe, though now it was for some reason or other to become the subject of attack, to put down what some are pleased to call merely an experiment. But they themselves were the toldest of all theorists aid speculators ; and one would have been inclined to think that the 'Governments they gave were the happiest in the world. Look to the history of the world, and they would see that the worst of perfidy and slavery had grown out of such armed interference as that now threatened. His Lordship said, he believed there was not in this coun try a man who would venture to stand forth in de fence o f the' c onduct of France towards Spain—a conduct which affected every free cOuntry in Europe. He did not find in either House of Pe:ilia:l:ea tiny 1 statesman—indeed, be could not name any indivi. dual, who was so base as to entertain, or so hold as to. avow, any approbation ofthat system, upon which the concerns of the great Powers of Europe, sere conducted. Let them look at Poland, Naples, and Piedmont is proof of this; and let them say whether liberty ever was bestowed on a nation by such me ans , or by • the military occupation of any country?... What would be the state of our commerce or of I r e. land, 'w ith the 'ports of Spain in possession of French armies ? No one could doubt that, if Spain were conquered, a free Government would not be left in Portugal ; and was not that a country which we were bound by treaties to support? We should then have the certainty of war if France should sobjugateSpai a and attack Portugal. He applauded the ruode 7 ato v4 and dignity of the Spanish nation, and he hoped it would remain unstained by those excesses which dig. graced other revolutions ; but if they shotild fiad other resource but letting loose an infuriated Ileople, they might also let loose a spirit of jacobinion which would be, perhaps, dangerous to thcm•elvs and to all other nations. With these views, he could have wished a more explicit statement of our opinions as to this principle of the Allies, and its appliati-n to the case of Spain in particular; still, as that Lad net been done, he did not see how they could propose to alter the Address ; and as he therefore saw reason to be content for the present that exertions would be nip& still to preserve the tranquillity of Europe, be should concur in the original Address. He, hcwever, continued to be of opinion that part of oar distresses arose from giving a preference to gold over silver as a standard of curt ency. He was glad to fiod that measures were in contemplation to secure the peace, and to ensure the permanent happiness of the people of Ireland. He had nothing to add, but that tie state of the Continent had been placed in a clearer point of view, especially that which was described in the Speech from the Throne as an irritation between the Courts of France and Spain. We ought to slim that, though loaded with taxation, we were not yetso low as not to vindicate the honour of the country if it is attacked, to support our principles, and the countries to which we were bound by treaties to give protection—(Hear, hear). The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, it was the duty of Ministers to propose such a Speech as would ensure unanimity, especially in that part which the Noble Marquis had alluded to. He thought the Noble Ea 1 (Stanhope) might have taken the first open day to have moved an inquiry into the Agricultural Distress, &c. for there was nothing in the Speech to call for his Amendment, or for his speech on abstruse ques tions of political economy. If on any future occa sion the Noble Lord, or any other, chose to bring that or any other question before the I-louse, he should be prepared to meet it. In 1819, the question of making gold a standard of currency, was a serious consi deration ; and he wished the Noble Marquis to con sider whether an alteration would not be of dangerous consequence? But he would not rest it there; for he should be prepared to defend the measure alto gether: for without silver they would not be under the same liability to pay as under gold. The Noble Marquis did not think the terms of the Address were far enough : now he (Lord Liverpool) cord,' r o: con ceive anything more explicit, without using hard words, and he saw no advantage in them. The Speech said, that his Majesty, faithful to the print pies le had already promulgated, wt uld not be a party to any Foreign interference with independent nations, except when they threatened danger to surrounding States. He would now say, that his Majesty's Go- vernment had all along viewed the question Spa's as one perfectly clear, as one on which there could be no doubt of the applicabili y of the principles which he had been describing ; because it was a quest tion exclusively constitutional in Spain, and because what had taken place on the subject in Spain, was confined to interests purely Spanish. The Spa. niards had not (as in other countries had been done) mixed up extraneous considerations with those in which they were themselves nationally concerned. During the late war, they had rep solved upon certain changes in their Constitution, and that Constitution, so modified, had been recoguised and acknowledged by other nations. Whatever Amendment it required, her lawful Sovereign might have reformed it instead of abrogating it. Sprat never wished to disseminate her opinions; on the contrary, she had offered the most ample guarantee' to the contrary; and he agreed her revolution had been conducted with less violence than any other.— " Whatever objections," continued his Lorddie. " might be offered to, and whatever defe cts . might (and doubtless did) exist in the Constitution ofSpain. yet there had been, and he sincerely trusted thew would be, throughout the career of those who hag the conduct of affairs in Spain, a less taint of bloa t crime, and violence, than was offered by almost any other example of similar revolution that had oc- Coned in modern history !"—(Hear, hear, hear).7 To justify any foreign interference, it must at leant* sewn that those who led the public affairs of Spain wished to extend their operations to other countries. Put, after their unequivocal disclaimer of any object of that kind, no such justification existed. And, over and above all these important considerations, thou who were sitting in judgment on Spain ought to la strongly influenced by the fact (widely differing in that respect from a neighbouring people in former times), however erroneous they might think the Spa• niards in the principles on which they proceeded to correct their Constitution, they could not but ac knowledge that their conduct bad hitherto bee" wholly untainted with any thing like crime or violence Upon these views of the subject, he trusted that them could be no doubt on the mind of any man of what was the policy of the English Government—(Heer) , It was a question not of justice only, but of expedtese . Who could calculate on the consequences which tnshe result to all Europe from any attempt to overthrow the Spanish Constitution by force of arms ?HMO. What, then, was the line of wisdom for this countre Unquestionably to preserve itself in 'a position to which, without shrinking in the slightest degree fro! the most unequivocal avowal of its princi platy .lt might yet be enabled to avert the threatened evil. and prevent the occurrence of actual hoittlity.—: The policy of this country* should be to keep tlloc 4 self in the situation of a mediator, which meg still enable us to prevent a war; for, notwithstansliag 411 that had passed/he still maintained that .the w:u not yet closed. For these reasons he toidd-aut F t, c