Star. — London, England, 1821-03-15 00:00:00

Austria in the Italian States, and when we consi 7 , demi what sums she had amassed in consequence, the principle ought not for a moment to be admitted of allowing her to withhold so long the sum she owed to England. Why was not Austria called . ' upon to relieve us from a debt contracted for her own benefit? There was a very strong argument , why she ought to be instantly urged for payment— her finances were now in a flourishing state. He found, on reference ,to the Vienna Gazette, of the 14th November, 1820, that not only was she enabled tl payoff a large proportion of the old debt, but of 'the new likewise. He would ask the Noble Lord op posite(Castlereagli) if the claim of England had been pressed when those paymenti were made? Un-• lesi:socoe atraniements west sp e edily made for pay- . pc ! )py would naturally Ala that the money which Ought to be se,* to England was employed in ~the erns* .was iiow in full activityaoinst Italy.. ..the:urordi of Mr. Pitt, as del sp ed the Kin s ; Speicli, went to shew that the 'ectof the 10.1 u lias to en• Ale us, by the means of ustria, to bring 'about a secure peace 7 —an object for which Parliament at-the time wished to make ,every exer tion,. from an abhorrence of military tyrants .and usurpers, which induced a sympathy for all those who were struggling for their tights against.lawless ambition. Even if our finances were in the .mcist prosperous condition the House ought to inquire nutely into our pecuniary relations with Austria, lest we might be reproached with assisting that. Power 'in her aggression so hostile to the spirit of our Con stitution, and to that strict neutrality which we had pledged ourselves to observe--(Hear, hear). It did not appear that we were under any obligations to Austria, which could claim an extraordinary indul- gence on our part. Her commercial policy was de cidedly opposed to ours ; and he thought she was not .entitled to any favour from us. Austria patronized principles, in detestation of which we had spent our deafest blood—principles which, if they were to be brought to act against us, we should, even impaired as our resources were, still prove that we had suffi cient means to counteract—(Cheers). The Honour. able Member concluded by moving, that an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, praying him to order to be laid before the House copies of all com munications between his Majesty's Government and the Government of Austria, so far as relates to the repayment of the sums due by Austria to England, under the Conventions of 1795 and 1797. Lord CASTLEItEAGH said he did not rise to oppose the motion, which he 'thought was brought forward in a laudable spirit. He could not now go back to the details of transactions which had been pending for five and twenty years; but he took it for granted that the calculation of the Hon. Member which made the sum now due £17,600,000 was cor rect according to the rase of progressive interest.— The original loan was 4,000,0001, exactly, and his Majesty's Government had not neglected to make application for the repayment when the proper time arrived. This IA ould he seen when the correspond ence was laid before the House. He believed it was in 1815, or 1317, that papers had been moved for on the subject, and a question which had been raised' upon them was very fully discussed. Of all the German. Powers, Austria and Prussia had experienced the greatest distress by the war, and it was on that account that Great Britain and Russia consented to give them precedence in receiving the contributions from France. As to the reason why Austria was not pressed for payment, a satisfactory one was given in the other House, against which no objections had been raised. An effort had since been made to pro cure from Austria a liquidation of our claims, but this proved unsuccessful, and the House would learn the cause when the papers were produced. Since the loan no less than six or seven subsidiary arrange ments had been made with Austria, and the arrears were made good without any proposition to set them off against the claim of 1795. He would again say, that when the documents were laid before the House, a sufficient reason would appear why it had not been deemed expedient to urge our demands. Sir J. NEWPORT was ready to acknowledge that the embarrassments of the Austrian Government should call for forbearance ; but the Austrian Go- vernment had now declared her finauces is a flourish- ing state, and that she was able to pay off part of her old debts. It was incumbent ou Austria, before she could ask us for further indulgence, to she,/ she had debts older than that due to us. Austria owed a debt to the country, so did this House, namely, to we that Austria was called on to make good her obligation. The Noble Lord and his colleagues were more especially called on to do this, since they as sumed to be the successors of Mr. Pitt, and claimed his power; if they assumed his power, they were bound to enforce his engagements. Lord CASTLER EAG ft explained, and the motion was then agreed to. ARMY ESTIMATES. The !louse, on the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, went into a Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates. _ The etrAiasiaw then read a Resolution, proposing 81,468 men, exclusive of 11,791 to be disbanded, as the number for the service of this year. Mr. MACDONALD rose to oppose the Resolu tion. Ile should propose a reduction of 10,000 men; and feeling that the reasons urged on a former occa sion were conclusive on the point, and feeling also that he should be followed by Gentlemen much more competent than himself; he should not preface his Amendment with many words. His decided con viction was, that 60,000 men would be amply suffi cient for all purposes ; 25,000 for the Colonies, and 55,000 for the Home Service, exclusive of Artillery. Ile would anew 5000 for reliefs, and this would make the number 65,000 men. He saw no reason why a larger number should be kept up. The House WAS in this case to look at what was practicable, and not at what was desirable. Therefore, he limited the reduction to 10,000 instead of 16,000, the num ber• which he thought ought to be reduced. He would not f e tter the Government with respect to the places where the reductions should be made, whether in Great Britain or Ireland, in the old Colonies or in the new. He hoped the Committee would agree with the in order to effect useful reductions, they must limit useless expenditure. He was willing to agree to the neceska,ry amount of force, and no more. however. le-t it should be supposed that he was in clined to strip the colutuy of a force propordoaed to 'eft demands oldie service, 1i should now stain, thet 'two yeat2 ago 30,000 men leere thought sufficient fee the Coleiles.l Suppose, Isers, that kteditetion of 1400 ' or 1500 men to* pace nt,T•fift or he lonian Wads,' stig; there woOdd be loft iltlte of above I 50,000ineer, inchiding rti l y, withlo,ooo of the Veteran Battalion, and the total number of regular troops in England and, Ireland would be 65.000, be sides 37,000 Yeomanry, and 20,000 Volunteers. The whole available force mtght be estimated at upwards of 100,000 men ;, and, , uport anemergency, 200,000 might be put into requisition. Gentlemen on his side of the House laboured - only for ncenomy. It was at present difficult to foresee. anything that would pre vent this country from asserting its.rights and inde pendence ; but Weyer that unfortunate disaster should occur, it would only be brought on by the infatua tion. f a Government which' refused to give the country a fair means of recruiting•its energies, after an unexampled contester-(Neer, hear).—Out of a Revenue of £54,000,000, we had but I:6,000,000 available, which, including the interest on the un funded debt, made the Whole amount only to *bait 1:20,000,000. We had nothing else to which iv could resort, except the Sinking Fund—a fund that was re: presented so sacred that it could not be touched. It was quite impossible to efiect economy in any other way, except by a retrenchment of the Estimates. It as with surprise that he heard it asked by an Ho nourable Member opposite, What individual will ,he relieved by these reductions, should they take' place?' He protested against such a mode of argu ing. rle admitted that the situation of each indivi dual could nos be made much better ; but certainly nothing could be done to make it worse.—(Hear, hear).—The Right Honourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer talked of the improving state of our Fi nances, but there was no man who looked seriously at the state of the country, that could agree with the Right Hon. Gentleman. He would now conclude by moving, as an Amendthent, that 71,468 ma be sub stituted for 81,468. Sir HUSSEY VIVIAN went into some. details to show that the 10,000 men proposed to be reduced constituted the only disposable force which the coun try had for reliefs in foreign possessions. If the amend ment was carried, the consequence must-be, that re giments, after having served nine years in the East Indies, would be allowed only three years to remain at home before they ware sent out again. By being left with too small a force, foreign Powers, when ac quainted with the fact, might take advantage of our inability to oppose them, while they commenced an attack npon us. The Honourable Member observed, in conclusion, that the Honour able Member for Aber deen was one of the best friends which the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had, from the nature of the op position which he gave to all the measures of the Noble Lord—(Near, hear). Mr. N. CALVERT spoke in favour of the amend ment. He thought that Gibraltar was a great source of expense, and productive of no sort of advantage to this country. It cost us now half a million of money, and in the time of war that amount was doubled. It did not command the entrance to the Mediterranean, and had no harbour. -He thought also that the lonian Islands might with advantage be got rid of, and at least half the household troops might be reduced, and their place supplied by police officers, a description of force in which chit country was very much deficient. Mr. HUME said, he was not disposed to give up the lonian Islands, but would make them pay their own expense. He agreed with an Honourable Mem ber opposite, in the assertion that he (Mr. Hume) was the best friend of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh), if the Noble Lord followed the good advice he gave him—(Loughter).—By doing so, he would be per fectly secure in his place, and nothing on earth could disturb him. But if the Honourable Member meant to say that any reduction which he (Mr. Hume)pro posed created a feeling in the country in favour of the Noble Lord, then he spurned the insinuation.— The Honourable Member entitled to the protracted discussions of a former night. But who resisted every proposition which he (Mr. Hume) and his friends had brought forward? The Honourable Member and his , party—(Lovghter).—Who were they that were rea sonable? The party which he (Mr. Hume) had joined—(Loud laughter).—He would say the reason able party; for when they agreed, like regular men, to go to bed at one o'clock, they were strenuously opposed ! Who was the reasonable man, he or the Honourable Member, who resisted in every instance? Hel—(C,ontinuedlaughter).—What would the country have thought if the House had allowed three or four millions to be voted away after one o'clock ? (Hear, hear),The Honourable Member then argued that the country had now a greater appearance of tranquillity than in 1792, and he contended that the household troops ought to be reduced. As to India, he would state there was no regular relief there worth consideration. When he was in India he saw scarcely any relief. The men did not desire it. The Offi cers, the Staff, and perhaps a few soldiers came home, but the great majority of them volunteered into other regiments, preferring to remain in India; and the cause was a very natural one—namely, that after being there *n years they became so habituated to the climate that they did not desire to return home. He believed that during the last twenty years so much as five thousand men did not return in consequence of reliefs. The reliefs, therefore, in India might be' left altogether out of the question. He was quite satisfied, on the whole, that the number of men said to be required for this purpose was greatly over charged, and he was convinced that a reduction might be made in the whole establishment of at least 20,000 men. The duties required to be performed could be adequately discharged by 60,000 men, in stead of 80,000. The Noble Lord had taken great credit for saving L'74,000 in the Commissariat De partment. Now the House would recollect that this reduction was in comparison only with the Estimate of last year, when a much greater charge was al lowed than was necessary. In the Barrack Depart ment also it was said that £117,000 was saved. This also was only in comparison with last year, when there had been a considerable increase in this depart ment. With regard to the reduction which had taken place in the Army, he contended, that if ten batta lions of the line had been reduced, instead of ten bat talioes of veterans, it would have saved the country a sum exceeding £BO,OOO. The principal reasons alleged for keeping up the present establishment were the increase of public works, and the increase and re• 4duded to .ic works, it was. men than formerly sidn siequired for them. He would ask. the Noble Lordoints a larger force required to defend Hull and Portsmouth now, than in 1792? Why were the garrisons increased, in those and in' other places, beyond the number of 1792? But even supposing such a large force necessary, why was it, not composed of veteran troops? They would have, performed the service quite as well, and with much less expense to the Country. With regard to the 40- lonies, he eonefclered 30,000 men a great.deal too large a l force to guard against surprises, at a moment When not 'a single hostile flag was flying on the ocean, - nor a single man-of-war belonging to England was afloat for the purpose of guarding against dan ger, At the utmost, he contended, 1500 men would', be sufficient for the relief of the Colonies. In his statement on a former night, he omitted entirely to enumerate 38 Regiments, and Battalions, consisting of 21,000 in all, 'of disembodied Militia, in Ireland. They were disembodied, it was true, but they were liable to be called out on a few days' notice. Includ ing this force with the Yeomanry Cavalry of Eng land, and adding to these the regular military esta blishments in this country, he stated that there were, in the whole, at present, 207,000 men, either in arms, or ready to be called out to bear arms at a short no tice—(Hear, hear).—Was it possible that the House could support the Ministers in asking such a large establishment as this ? The Noble Lord had said, thA by making the Regiments consist of 650 men each, he could add 34,000 men to the whole esta blishment, without adding more than two subalterns to each company. If that was the case, was it not a direct proof that the number of Officers at present was too large, and that they, ought to be reduced ? His opinion was, that 20,000 men ought to be re duced. He would, howeatar, support , the present motion for reducing 10.000. men, as be would be glad to have any reduction' at all. The increase of the Staff had been enorMous‘y diserroportionate to the Staff of 1792. The Noble Lerd, indeed, said that the Staff of that period was, so small, that no business was done, 'or that it was done badly. This was a curious kind of enlogium oft the Ministry of Mt. Pitt —at least it was an admisSion that the charge of irre gularity which hadbeeri so Often made against that' Ministry from this side of the House, but which was denied to be just by the other side, was founded truth—(Hear, hear). It was a fact worthy of remark, , that since the yesorlBl6 the Duke of Cork had filled; up 1105 new Commissions, while by the Returns it appeared that there were 7000 Officers on half-pay Why had not those 1105 Commissions been, given to Officers already on half-pay ? and that alone would have produced a saving off 81,000 a-year. Thus the, patronage of his Royal Highness had 'cost tyre Nation an immense sum since 1816. The gallant' General, Member for Truro (Sir H. Vivian), had talked of the distresses of Officers upon half-pay, and had asked, whether the object were to reduce them ? , No : the object was to advance them, and to place at least a large number in circumstances of comparative afflu ence. He (Mr. Hume) agreed that at present they were living upon a miserable pittance; and it was so because Ministers had prevented them from seeking an honourable employment in foreign countries, by fighting the battles of liberty and independence—' (Hear, hear).—lt was true that they now led in this country a deplorable existence ; but it was not for those who had brought in-and carried the abominable Foreign Enlistment Bill to talk of it, since they were in a great degree the cause of their sufferingss--(Hear). If such compassion were felt for them, why had they not been advanced from half to full pay ? Why had not the Duke of York selected them for the 1105 Commissions, instead of taking those Whose past ser-, vices gave them not the slightest claim? At this' moment he (Mr. Hume) believed there were many half-pay Comets at School, having had Commissions given them merely that they might retire upon half-• pay, and then finish their edecation! The Honour able Member concluded by stating, that in none of. his remai ks he had intended to touch individuals:— he had directed his attacks only against the extrava-: gant and ruinous system of expenditure. Sir H. H AR DING E said, the system of the Guards: had been inquired into by the Comminie in 1131 1 7, who had recommended no change. If they svere re-modelled, without the additional pay to which the men were entiticici 'by the terms of their enlistment, they would not be more expensive than the regiments of the line, except by 2501. on a battalion of 650 men. It had been said by the lion. Member for Aberdeen, that the change of dres s i n th e Guards was expen sive; but the Hon. Member might have found, by inquiring of every military man, that in the Guards„ as in all the regiments of the service, the expense of the change of dress fell on the Colonels. As to the alleged inefficiency of the Guards, from 'their not serving out of Europe, he denied that there .vas any. regulation which prevented them from doing Had they not served in America during the American war? Had they not served in Egypt ?—(Hear, hear): It was true that it was not customary to send them out of Europe; but neither was it customary to send , Light Infantry—(Hear, hear)—who eonseqnentlif were, with regard to efficiency, on the same footitig as the Guards. The efficiency of the Guards in the field had been admitted. The proportion of them that had been opposed to the enemy was greater, in fact, than that of the regiments of the line, which arose from the circumstance blamed by the Honour able Member, viz. their being exempted from the colonial garrison duties. The manner in which they had been made available at Waterloo, and in the Peninsula war, was well known. That regiment, in which he had the honour to serve, the Ist Guards,' had been renewed three times during the war; and the consumption of the seven battalions amounted to 28,000 orren.( Hear, hear).—With respect to the' assertion that the Guards were kept up for itiete drew, he asserted that their duties were more severe than the ordinary duties of regiments of the line. Indeed, they were so hard worked by their ordinary duties, that when they were called on any eniergency, they had not strength to do the duty. From all the inqui ries he had made respecting the Guards,. there was no ground for the as s ertion that they were an over grown establishment. One hundred and fifty igo, when they were first raised, ri, c y . Kern ' e ar% battalions ; in 1792 they were seven hattaliontsn" they were seven battalions now. There w as Ition of one light company to each battalio n; u act *14,.. ur r h addition was also made in the line. Of the lin e Here were sixty battalions in 1792, now there ate lap but the number of battalions of the Guards had mained the same. In each comp any, i n 1792, tibi" were Forty-seven men, now there were seventy. re ,. , but there was still the same num b er of Olcer,-;: before, three to each company ; thus the expe nse ,: not raised with the numb e r s . A suggesti on C I been thrown out that the pay of soldiers oth ol henceforward should be diminished, because (it 1 , - ; said) the wages of labourers had only been increased-- e i w n d g h ia ic t e ell ch y it ta Per wa k ei n i lfil as five to four, while the pay of the soldier h t a b een doubled. This was a misconception of the the r, because, though there was an increase of actal p a y a great number of other allowanees had been p aw f a th y is T si h x e pe so n l c d e iers per ha d cl ay no w w as s i s ma h c.m ill the Government for Ms ration. When pr ow . • ' were high the soldier gained, when they w ere l ow the Government gained by the bargain. Th en et „ mained another sixpence with which he had to pr o. vide shirts, washing, pipe-clay, cuhred would cost the most frugal soldier th ree , pence-halfpenny or threepence-farthing ; the 'emi t ., ing twopence halfpenny was all he had to suppl e himself with beer, tobacco, and other luta (Hear, hear). If there was a Property Tax oa t h e soldier it must come solely out of this t aope oth halfpenny. The question of reliefs had beta sa g, ciently discussed by the Noble Secretary of Wa r . as the Honourable Member for Aberdeen many men in India volunteered to remain the re ,th e regiments must be changed, because the Olke n would not submit to perpetual banishment. lath e West Indies he (Sir H. Hardinge) feared reliefs wadi be necessary every five rather than every te a y eas. He had always understood that Gibraltar d en im great advantages to our fleets, from the facility of refitting, and he referred to the instance when Sin t. Saumarez blockaded a fleet which had taken sh e l ter in Algeciras. Mr. N. CALVERT observed, we had no thee possession of Malta. Mr. GOIJLBURN complained, that though the discussion had been adjourned to give Members she had not expressed their opinions an opport un i ty i f speaking, no one had that night spoken who Wait spoken on Monday, except the Member for Hertford —(A laugh). The Honourable Member applied self to answer the charges against the Military E s t i . blishment in the Colonies ; especially the Mediterra nean Colonies and St. Helena. In 1792 the garriaa of Gibraltar, the only one we had in the Mediterra nean, had 8,335 men. Malta, it was universally ac. knowledged, required as large a garrison as Gibral tar; yet with Malta and the lonian Isles our force had only increased to 7,000 men. In St. Helen, the cause of so great a force was the sense oftheini pOrtifice Of the cusiody of Bonaparte, and the tdtl at the same time to subject him to little personal re. straint ; in consequence of which many large guards were necessary in various parts of the Island. The Hohoerable Member for Aberdeen had said, that all the Colonies should pay the expense of the force maintained in them.. This proposition included more considerations than the Honourable Member fir peared to suppose. The system with our Colones had been, that for the restrictions we imposed oa their trade, and for the benefit we derived from the restrictions, we were to pay for their defence. k was easy to say they were a dead expense to the country, but it would be difficult to put all the im cidental advantages of them on paper, so as to le satisfactory to the Honourable Member for Aber deen. In the correspondence with the Colonies* this subject, the Colonies declared, that if an mai mited trade was given them, they would ranging for their own defence—(Hear, , from the Omelet). The colonial policy of this country was not tole& cussed incidentally, nor could it be settled in aunt calculation of expense. The Hon. Member said,M the new Colonies, which were governed by the Crown, and which did not now pay the expense d their garrisons, would do so, if they were admiled to the privileges of the British Constitution. lk (Mr. Goulhurn) wished the Honourable Memhorkd given any instance of their willingness to providefor "troops—( Hear, hear).—None of those Coloniesilii were governed by Constitutions, provided fame part of the garrisons, except Jamaica, while mod the new Colonies did. The Hon. Member thee, ja answer to the statement of a gallant General (Sir Wilson), that the Dutch Governor of the Cape,beee it was taken, had defrayed the whole of the makers as well - as civil expenses of the Colony, out des revenue, observed, that this statement Mast be founded in error. To spew this, he read an extras of el letter from M. Schirnmelpenninck, head 416! Batavian Republic, to General Jansen, Govereord the Cape, in which there was the following ell& sion :—" If any branch of active trade couldleie tro4uced, the Cape might defray its own expeok cure." This letter was dated in June, 1805. was not very long before it was captured, anal a decisive proof, th a t a t t h a t ti me the Cape cm• not support its establishments. Another gallaat_ neral (Sir R. Fe rgusson ) h a d s t ate d, that 6 00 7 Grey had given his opinion, that 1.3,000 we.,L.LI Omit salary for the Governor of the Car E Ciaig, from Sir R. Ferguson". He (Ur tiolumn Could find no trace of General Craig havingexpoo, any such opinion; General Grey had expressedae" rectly contrary one. Sir It. FERGUSON explained what he b ad that in 1795, when the Cape fell into our ban General Craig, who acted as Governor, stand Dir . _ Government, that he had found no salary bag; him, but that he had-app ro p r i a ted £3,000 Pe! num, which he thought fully adequate to the ott . Mr. GOULBURN observed, that even in &dog General Craig's emoluments would have been grow than those of the present Go v e r nor, as the old sfO: of giving fees to the Gove rnor c ontinued fill O t os rival of Lord Macartney. The Hem /Rob ° defended the Secretary for the Colonial dkps from the charge of diverting the colonial 1 " .111 r1 the purposes of pat ronage . IVhen the Nohleag— (Earl Bathurst) first came into office, he a Bill- to preclude himself from granting °ILI lonial.appointrnents .to persons who did notE ge i in the lesp‘ctive Colonies; he had reclusid. % V *Colonies. When the le. yd spoke of Ohs, he ought to have sta that these on several thy:aid ing it) co- 4iiitia. In Caltaillii w 4 a Joisat , and in other fsads,o e lonies there was Colonial forces. :'But thew forces were not luded to by the Noble bsrd. As to the pub- rks, it was said tsp., at present 6,018 more M