Star. — London, England, 1817-07-03 00:00:00

"•, • That the Paine:: of Thomai :.vans be re rred u a Select ComniiLee. /:f:. H. ADDINCTC:eI.—In rising to make some bierv,iiaoria, in reply to the speech of the Honourable, Muni re:, in: assured the linuse that he sh•itild exer- t cat: their in,tience but for a sliort time; and if he over thos.: pene:al topics on which the h,,1 Jae:: with 11110C11 effect, it was not to • t: 5u ee to any disrespect to the Hon. Membe7, iso; 1 ., a convieii.in on his part Of their irrele v_ccy to the subj.:•...• cenhi not, however, re is n:c.or e::•,,res.anj his raritude.to the Hinloitash,L les the v :y oolite terms.ht which Le s e :J. 4 ;i t f lie had not an•it-i -r. thi.i night ,o_.:tiost the conditet beer:.-.try of Stiehl for the Home Deparl•nmt, ti:v cc: y al; he thought, satislact , .:, - y, la,.atiou Ltd ii•rrnerly eir.:ll. Some of th•-: .T...-g4tion,. cant:ill:A in the l'etittnii he had discro - .ed even to demonstration, and hail supporo.d state by the te.idiorlty of dates aiirt facts. It: did desire: any bLi.iht..r to cleptoid rierely on bit IV th f.pect to the Petition which was said to 1...ve heir; ietur Ives: is its passr.l..:. throth the tire of t: e I tome Department, he had in 11:6 posses s:on a reeti,A, in the form of a letter, for tfult freer Ili. 17a2 titer, Evans' Solicitor. That was the etily Pleat m it svhich, as he vvas ay.Lie. of, had en tered the o:hce ; and nrobablis the HonotiraLle Merc.be: . opposite could say. whether it was the Lime as one .t. luck had been preserved to the House o:. the 27th day of February last—(.:tar, hear.) — The alter yowl which had been urged against the Noble Secretary of State was, that lie ought to have been infornit'd ef the internal hate of every prison. This, however, appeared an titerordinary assertion, Cad a Secretary of boot, who eras so ready to hear caul complaint that might be sent to him, requiring a redress of grievances, should be compelled to make dally inquiries into the conduct of gaolers, and win:- C.a . it Was consistent with the orders prese n ted to them ? It was competent, for the prisoner to make c toplaitits, if his treatment had been improper, and the best answer to his own allegations was, that no complaint •Itad ever been sent to the 'thee'. Ile de clared that pen, ink, and paper, had never been re fused to the prisoner, and it not able to write, he might have sent a verbal request by the gaoler a and the fact was, that Mr. Evans had acteally•sent one message to the office of the Home Departmont,.4 the gaoler of Coldbath-fields Prison, that his formai l'etition should not be given either to the Noble Lord (Cochrane) or to the. Honourable Baronet (ST F. fiord. u), but to Mr. Homer, his solicitor. 'lbis re quest was complied with, and others might, it acces s try, have been made in a similar manner. Ile la • mented the seat nith with which lie had expressed himself on a fernier night, and for which the Speaker so properly interrupted him, but for this he had made a vluotary apelogy. lf, however, he had not been interrupted, he would have closed his sentence by asking •how it•waa possible for him or tlia Secretary of State to 'oe acquainted with the interior of every pitman ? D4ectioni had been given to every gaoler to ray the strictest ai:entioir to the pi . wiliers, and the Secretary or State ever open to dick corn a lAiits. 1 - taviog thus ixonera , ed the Secretary o: State t r ,•ha the charges is ilith call been brought against he felt it no leis his duty to detead ail other per.ons, gaolers, and turnkeys, front t!:e severe acerisatiofis burled against them. °bona every li:formation on the subject, he, conceiving Liniaeli the most pr.:- per person in the House to do so, sent thiet mottling for the gaoler, and uirele every ore ssary inquiry le st:ectiag the management of the prison. he learned tolat thire was an unlimited allowance Of :Mills, ClL:2pt la summer, Shen only a quantity was provided sat ticient for celinaty purpose,. Candles, ind eJ, were issued under some restrictions, arid ouiy on special :.tali-city. Much stress find lacett laid on depriving Mr. li.vatis of his Hite; it was, howc:vcr, t!ie rule ot the p; sot. not to allyw music, as it dist;ii hed others, but Mr. might have had his musics ; ment, if hr did not make use of it—(lleur p hear, 41,,(1 laugh froas :/.e Oppositialt.)—The bed winch Mr. Evans used, was perfectly new, and of a better qua lity thau those in common use in the prison ; but if Mr. Evans were dissatisfied with this, he 'pi& have had. his IWri bed and furniture. He hatfaiso inquired from the gaoler ; whether the Sheriff ever visited the ga.. , 1, to which the gaoler replied, that the Sheriff had been. there thirteen times, and had visited it that very morning, attended by a Magistrrte of the county, a Member of the House. The Sheriff inquired parti cularly into the treatment of the prisoners, all of whom declared their gratitude to the gaoler for his uniform kindness and humanity. If the Member who accompanied the Sheriff were then in the House, it would be competent for him to disprove that'state ;tient, is correct. The gaoler himself had received two letters, voluntarily written brtwo ot the priso ners, expressing the same sentiments of esteem and gratitude for his conduct. For these reasons he did not think it necessary to enter into any further inves tigation of the subject, and should therefore oppose the motion of the Honourable Member. Mr. D. SHAW said, that from what he had heard yesterday upon this subject, he fel: it his duty as a Magistrate of Surrey, to inquire into the facts. and tie more so, because the representation made to the House respecting the conduct of the jail vet s sn con- Karp to the impression which he had .fur a series of years been induced to entertain, from his knOwiedge of the re&ulations of the Magistracy, ant:ldle dispo sition of- the gaols—therefore he had this day called at the prison, and applied to every individual con fined on a charge of High Treason, in order to as certain the grounds of complaint. He put a question to each, whether, abstracted from the privation of liberty, he bad any fault to find with the conduct pf the'gapler ?—and the answer was decidedly different irons what the House bad heard last ,night, No coin plaint was indeed made against the 4aoler or diet MA gititates. Leans, the elder„expressed a strong desire for 'liberty, and complained of his imprisonment some years ago, but tte stated that he bad no objec tion to make to the gaoler or Magistrates. stated, that MY far from feeling any objection to the Bmkt9 he 'should be 'so ioag as he lived the object of la Rive apd gratitude. The younger Eiens wipers. d adcsire to be Yurniehed with more candles, Espe. dally on the nights becoming • longer, but made no complaints of the gaoler; and as to Ogden, be, with teats in his eyes, declared that so long as memory F.cld its teat, he skald look with gratitude and r Bard to the gaoler, who had proved himself his friend in distress. _ _ Mr. BENNETT observed, that the Honourable Member's statement contained nothing contradictory to that which he feu it his duty to submit to the House yesterday, nor did it at all affect the question to which h.: had called the attention of the House. For , the cprestiou was not with regard to the conduct of tile gaoler upon the rules of the Magistracy, but' whether those rules or regulations were applicable to' State Prisoners ?—The Magistrates of Surrey might pronounce what euloginms they pleased upon the elle recter of their gaoler, ben those eulogiums could not letter the question one iota. It had been stated amidst toes: ertlegiums, that the prisoners alluded to could .tee the „ eee the ose. fey hills from the windews of the rooms iii aelikli they were co: iced. while the tact was, that (rem the extreme height of the windows, these pri. :Amer,. ha.; just as rotetts view of the Surrey hills as the M:.rebee; whom he addressed had of the river 1 . 11 Mel. This statement was therefore quite a delu sent. 'flea as to lights, those prisoners complained of the wait of them, and the answer was, that they rmit! not have what they required consistently with the roles yet the prison. Bit these rules furnished no jestifieetiun for any itenecesmty rigour towards such prsura Cs as he had alluded to. The Right Honour able Gentleeeen (Mr. Tlilcy Addington) on hearing of the cempleiats of those prisoners, should himself have gone to the prison to inquire into the grounds 1,1 coloplai:it, and Li) judi.;i: of it from personal oh leevetion, instead of s•ntsling for the gaoler, and trussing entirely to his representations. Had the it:ght Hoeourasle Gentleman done so, lie could not have been imposed upon by the pompous description of the arcade, which WAS SO ostentatiously put tore ward last night. For what was this arcade ? Why, merely a passage oh three or four feet broad, between the felons' cells, without windows on either 'side, as had been asserted, for there were cells or. each side. The rules of the prison sm doubt emanated from the Magistracy, and any censure they deserved belonged to that body ; but it was the duty of Ministers, before they sent men merely suspected of treason to arty prison, to inquire whether it was suitable for such prisoners ? The gaols of London were originally built for felons, and the discipline of those prisons might be very fitting for such prisoners. But it Mi nisters would persevere in their pr. sent system, to which, he was sorry to see, they' were too much dis posed, they must bui.d more prisons for their victims. All the complaints which he had preferred yesterday with respect to those prisoners, namely, as to the re fusal elan opportunity to enjoy air and exerdise, the denial of coals and candles after a certain hour, and . the depriving Mr. Evans of his flute, were nut only uncolitradieted but distinctly admitted on the other side, and therefore he hoped the grounds of these compleittts would be removed. Upon the circum bEilllCC of ironing those prisoners be would make no farther conimeut, as it was universally condemned, but he could not help expressing his surprise that the liigh Sheriff and Magistrates of Surrey, who saw those pi istaiers in irons, did not him:dearly order then. to be -trod: off. Mr. 1 - 10N11". :L./:.-IN Elt observed, neon the allu sion tat the ilooocrahle Ga:.titinan to th e lli g h Shetiii of St.::e/ and Maws. Y. ung and I..iing, by wLorst he was 4ccompiinied, upon sLeingilii• ;:tute Prisoners in ironr, these Gentlemen, he mold say, did not feel themselves warranted in intirfuring with pri. sore- l's committed by the Secretary of State by or dering the irons to he lame: elf. But those Geotle men iseornmended the prisoners to send a Memorial to tie Secretary of State upon the subject, which Memoriel was inrimediately drawn up and forwarded, and the result was known. As to the gaoler, lie had, es a Magistrate of Surrey, always received the best report or his conduct, and he was strongly recom. rueoded to the rittristtacy by his predecessor, whose opinion was peculiarly entitled to their respect, from the humanity, firmness, and attention by which that °dicer was uniformly distinguiabed. As to the ac commodation and apartments furnished to these priso ners, they were much better, he was persuaded, than could be had in the generality of prisons —for, he pre sumed, that prisons were not to be wade: pleasant ' places, as that would be a perversion of the object of imprisonment. But with respect to the room oc cupied by Evans,' he could assert that there was a view of the Surrey halt from its windows, which however were very high above the floor.— But if Mr. Evans would stand upon a table he could look through them. The room of Evans was indeed that which was occupied by Mr. Leigh Hunt eluting his imprisonment in Horsemonger-lane, and no complaint was then beard of its size or situation. Mr. Leigh Hunt provided his own furniture, and the room was found quite comfortable. It was indeed such in breadth, length', and height, that he (Mr: Sumner) should never wish to live in a better , (Hear, hear, hear.)—The Hon. Meenber who spoke last had alledged that all his statements upon pre wilting the petition of Evans were admitted, but this allegation be (Mr. Sumner) was prepared to deny. Fur he had ascertained that in the ellowanie of coals to Evans, as well as the other State Prisoners, there was no limitation either as to time or quantity. The taking away of Evans's flute did no doubt seem to him an act of wanton cruelty, but yet the prisoner was not deprived of other comforts, as had been stated, fur be s'as allowed books, pen, ink, and paper. Mr. S. WORTLEY declared, that he had sever heard a case of complaint so fully answered as that' under consideration, nor one which had 'so much the appearance of being trumped up for the purpose of . imposing upon and inflaming the public mind. In the first piece, the statement of the Petitioner Evans, that a toriner Petition front hint had been suppressed, instead of being for warded to the Gentleman tu Whom it was addressed, was proved to be totally tenacious, and the person who put that statement in the, Pitt- tion, must lievee been aware of its t:itect fallicy.— Event himself might not hay.ekitoWn that the Peti tion stated to have been suppressed, wes actually pre-' seined to that House by the lionoar.ib:e Cen!lernan (Mr. Bennett);t'n February last ; bet Harmer, who drew up this Pet:tion, could net possibly hare b e en ignorant of that' fact. Yet the Petition containieg,• this grossly-false allegation, tae; presented on Friday last, no doubt with a elew to !)...ve it published, espe cially in the Sunday rimers, is the hope or producing 1 A mischievous impressioo iii;:ei the public mind, and tvciting the most angry . passions. IVith respec t to* Use Honourable (lumbar ovtoni he could call his Huno3rable Friend), who presented this Petition, be must say, that he dtd not act with the candour and caution which usually marked his conduct in present ing such a Petition, without due examination and re flection. But he must think, that his Honourable Friend did not recollect at the time, that he had pre tented the tormer Petition, or that this Petition was the same as that which Evans alledged to have bten suppressed. The last Petition was, however, he was satisfied, drawn up and presented with a view to inflame the public mind against the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. If those State Prisoners were aggrieved, why did they not apply for re lief to the Secretary of State ?--(llear, But no, it was thought mote desirable, by falsehood and exaggeration, to produce an erroneous impres tion through the medium of a debate in that House. Evans himself, indeed, on communicating with Mr. Harmer, could not have been ignorant of the false hood of the allegations to which he put his name, in this petition. When he (Mr. Wortley) heard of the place in which Evans was confined, he really thought it one of those gloomy and uncensforteble cells to which prisoners are sometimes committed. But he now found that it was a good room of considerable dimensions. The privation of the flute did certainly appear a very exceptionable proceeding ; bat )et, when told that this proceeding was dictated by the rules of the prison, he could not condemn the gaoler, whose duty it wits to take care that the enjoyment of one prisoner should not be allowed to annoy others, which might be the case, if Evans thought proper to play upon his flow at late hours. This privation, however, as well as the other grievances alluded to by the petitioner might have beets redressed through an application to the Secretary of State, without Coming to that House. As to air and exercise, he thought that an opportunity to enjoy both should not be refused to those prisoners ; and that if the arcade alluded to were not sufficient for that purpose, they ought to be admitted to the gardens of the prison, that is, if such admission did not involve a direct violation of the rules laid down by the Magistracy. Reverting to the propriety of an application, by pri soners of this description, to the Secretary of State, instead of endeavouring to provoke debate in that House, with a view to excite groundless prejudices against the Act for Suspending the Habeas Coren. the Honourable Member stated, that he had voted for that Act, from a sincere love for his country the Constitution, being convinced that such at Act . was essential to preserve the peace of the one, and to secure the existence of the other. Mr. BENNETT asked whether the Honcerable Gentleman meant to accuse him of having assisted to trump up charges with a view to italamc the pub-. lie mind Mr. S.WORTL EY disclaimed any such intention. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT observed, that the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last had declared, that he had voted fur the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act from a love of the Constitution—that is, from a love for the liberty of the subject; and yet, when a subject deprived of his liberty complained to that House of injustice and oppression, the Honour able Gentleman angrily deprecated his conduct, be cause the application for redress w as not made to the very persons to whose system tl.c complaint referred. As to-the statements in the Petition alluded to, he (Sir Francis Burdett) would not assert their accuracy, or admit their falsehood. He would not impute era ' rtinality either to the Petitioner or to those against whom his charges were preferred, but would vote tor having the Petitien referred to a Committee for the purpose of inquiry, because the statements in that Petition presented prima facie grounds fur Parliamen tary investigation, and he could not be dissuaded from thinking that such an investigation should take place by any of the testimonies which the House had heard with respect to the character of the Gaoler, for he could not forget that when he formerly sub mitted charges et a similar nature against the misconduct of a person, he was met by the most confide' t assertions and the most lofty eulogiums upon the person to whom his charges referred.— He would not impute any criminality to tke jailor of 'the prison in Horsemonger-lane, for he knew nothing of the man, therefore such an imputation would be neither fair nor liberal ; but was it fair or liberal in the last speaker s to impute falsehood .to a 'man in a dungeon ? (Hear, hear,) Was not such r an imputation Meted utterly unwarrantable, nhile the Iloaourable Gentleman himself admitted that it was wantonly cruel to deprive this unfortunate priso ner of his flute ? Must not the Right Hon. Gentle man (Mr. H. Addington) have some sympathy for the prisoner in this instance ? He, who, with such an instrumeet, 6 , could discourse most excellent music," could not surely fail to feel the severity of the privation which the prisoner was condemned to endure, and without any appearance of necessity or justification. But to return to the complain; which he hid on a former occasion brought forward with respect to the conduct of a jailor, he felt strongly its analogy. to the case under consideration, for he re membered that several Gentlemen were found iti that , House to'bear sestimony -in favour of. that jailor— . sonie indeed asserting , that his-only fault was , truly„, excessive humenity towards his prisoners. (Hear.) — Such was the testimony in favour of Aris, ot Cold bath.fields, of an Honourable and religious Member of that House— Mr. S. WORTLEY here rose to order, observin g, that the Honourable Baronet had, on a former even ing applied the same description to a Member of that 14-:use, when it escaped notice ; but he .submitted that such a description was not Parliamentary. The SPEAKER said, that, bring appealed to, he must observe, that to describe any Member in ironical terms was not consistent with Parliamentary order; and the Honourable Baronet must be aware that such a mode of description was not agreeable, to she usual practice of the HouSe. • Sir F. ISURDLTT resumed, and declared that he did not mean to use the description objected to ironi. cally, but distinctively, and in order to mark the cha racter which was known to belong to the Honourable Member alluded to. 'Tat Honourable Member was, it would be recollected, among those who were im posed upon with regard to the character of Aria, and therefore testified to that which he presumed that Honourable Member would now be ready to admit was quite erroneous. Mr. Wilberforce Bird was one of the Members of the CumMittee to whom the corn plaints respecting Cold Bath-helds were referred, and re recollected that Honourable Gentleman to have stated a fact with respect to Aril, which was quite equal, if not superior, in endue to the old story ol the destruction of the spider in the cell of a prisoner in the French Bastile. A wretched man was confined in irons, in a solitary cell, eight feet long and six feet broad, where he was kept throughout the whole of seee.re winter. During this painful period a retell used to perch on the bars of his dungeon, and At length got so familiar with the wretched inmate of the cell. that it was in the habit ref occasionally flying in and resting on his arm. While this little bird was in the act of tfi Its cheering the captive in Lis dungeon, Mr. Aris (who eeldom visited these ea) seized the was too tame t , .r i i4ex a p t ect i e li d s ly a e p re p te ro re a d c . h ; T h h e e i r m ott m id ediedy bird, and squee z ed i t to tie . rth in . I '. is bend The unfortunate men, who thus lost WI; only eie-d tre complained in bitter teens of this p privation, ' that he would rathe r hive himself suffaed death, that of all his fri e nds along wi t h hi m , sooner them have lost this tender object of h:s solicitude —(llee-, hear, Gear.) He (Si r F r ancis B ur d ett ) cou ld no: then, with such circumstances in his memory, be et. tisfied of the propriety of dismissing a pitsento'i complaint merely upon testimonies to his ceereet.e. from those who perhaps had no adequate opporie. nity of ascertaining his real conduct. It the Gentle man opposite, who bare such strong testimony favour ot the geoler alluded to in the case before the House, were justly conyinced of his rectitude, %see object to the appointment of a Committee, befo which he would hair an oppnrtucity of repelling te charges preferred against him ? Such al! ObjeCtlol was but too much calculated to excite retspicese (Hear, heir.) An intelligent judge of lumen cure had observed, teat " the steel.heerted geo:er was seldom the friend of man." He wettld tee sax that the gaoler immediately allttJed to dererved ee censure ; but he watild rmintain, that t/le:e ticket grounds in the cl.arii.es agairt-: hins to call or ingairy. As to the rwder!. doctrine, cit.,.his 'Aia•e. ty's Milikters were the head 'pt:lore of ir,gln:rsi", highly disapproved of it, no: wi:hstnet!ini± of the authority by stihicli it via: sm:aincd. Ministers were, or ought to be, too Ijrol t. urd.rtake such an effete. I indeA!, in become then: ; ' bait they assumed the diti:ction of ;all the goiils, they were responsible for their ppents, an! subject their cordtitt to a rigid scrutiny— He did not mcso ro imrnte to the Iti:;ht Eon. Cott. I thinan - (Mr. H. Adiliistrtnn) any dispiiitioi t t o .t, • gravate the condition of the st Ice pristine' s, it, lexec condition of Imo committLi ti' :;aol ter ita period, with:cut any prospect of trial, could admit of any aggrevetion. Phil east: wit!: regard to 'those prisoners was, however, now by no oceans so bad as formerly—lie meant under the administration of Mr. Pitt ; fur at present it was understood that -none were committed without evidence on oath, bet fiemerly men wer e committed without any evidence or formality of accusation. A case bed come to his knowledge, in which a party were taken up at a po!-- • lic-house by smite police officers, and the whole draft, as it appeared, committed to Coldbatlefields Among this party was a person of the name of Hux ley, who, after bring confined for seven or eight months, was found out by Iris Jclations ; and it war a-. certanied that no warrant from the Secretary of grate had ever been issued against him. In tact, lie had keen detained without any charge svhatever against him, and therefore he was releas,J, but teithet.t any indemnity or remuneration. A torcigner also was de. tained —in prison until he actually lost his reasu. —But he hoped that no such atrocities would agaia take place. While, however, there was some diie. tenet between the new and the old system which was in favour of the former, there was also a consi,!erahle difference in favour of the latter, for lie recollected that he had an easy access to Coldbatlifields Prison. by order of a Magistrate, and was allowed freely to examine the prisoners, and there was at that time no solitary confinement, the prisoners beitig allowed rar communicate with each other at least by day. Bo; now a different system, marked in his opini:in with pi culiar rigour, was generally establidied ; and as to the oath required at present ci u arrant the committal of a man accused of treasonous practic:s, it might after all turn out, that those oaths were such as could not be credited in a Court of Justice—Wear: Lrei. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. H. Addington I had emphatically chserved, that no prisoner was pre 'ciiided the liberty of complaiaing a hut what availed that privilege, if, according to the Honourable Ger.- ' tleman (Mr. S. Wortley), prisoners were to be cor demned for complaining to any but those with whom the cause of their complaint originated, or it, upon an appeal to that House, no inquiry was to be inct., tuted 1 If complainants stated any thing mil turdeil, that would be extremely foolish, and wity.l,4 ori7 serve to injure themselves. This, ikrelst'ai, obvious, that he coeld riot believe the statements of • the Petition before the House to be destitute of truth. The rctitioner had been now above f.s , ' montbs in custody, precluded tram the due (mkt) . - ment of air and exercise, and surely such a case deserved the humane consideration of the Ilouse!— The windows of his room were conlessedly so high that he could not look out of them. But upon the impropriety of such rigour, detained mere) , upon suspicion, and whom the law must presume innocent, 'he would read the opinion of high authority—" It is :tore necessary, (says Lord Coke, in his third fr.- stitute) to be known bow prisoners, to speak once for all committed for treason or any ether offence, oug'.t to be demeaned in. prison." brae. I. :/, 15-1, saith— " Salvor, gaolers, in carcere cou'inendos damnare, • ut in vincolis contineantur,sed hope mihdi interdicts ▪ sunt a lege, quia career ad f 7 ont4hendos non ad p • niendos habere delte•al.' 1'.::.7. "It an abuse :a:•: prisoners b: charged with irons, or put to any pl.'. before they be attainted." And the author of Mirror of Justice says —" And because it is forbid den that none be pained before judgment, the law re friblitth, that none be pot amongst vermin, or in any 'horrible nor cange:on* pl.sce, nor in any other pain but it is lawful for gaoleis to fetter those they daebt, so as the fetters weigh no more than twelve ounces for those wha are ontrageou, violent, tee." But ail legal, equitable, and humane ieithorities, have pro:ci ted at asst any degree of rigour, as unnecessary fir sale custouy with regard to prisoners, especially be tote trial and coniiction. Why then should any un necessary tiguur be practised towards those State Prisoners ? and such rigour must at least be sesptc• red, if Mioi..ters persisted - in otqlosiag the proprsf f inquiry. It they vit'sed to rent:ive a.. 1