Star. — London, England, 1822-03-05 00:00:00

lessen the term _ to the present 7 state, that as soon as , found he had the authority, he sent to have more dulgence allowed Mr. Hunt. The Hon. Member con. cluded by moving that the Petition be brought up. Mr. DICKINSON also noticed the order of the High Sheriff. and added, that Mr. Hunt would - now be placed in the same situation in which he was before the regulations complained of. • Mr. BENNET sad the Rev. Divine was far from adhering to the doctrines of his DIVINR MASTIER I whose precepts he professed to follow—who said, WI was imprisoned and ye visited me." The ccmtrari seemed to be the spirit by which he was guided. M I thought that some relaxation of the treatment towaids Mt. Hunt ought to be adopted. Mr. HOBHOUSE rose to observe, that he thought it incumbent on Ministers to alleviate the punish ment of Mr. Hunt, and remove him to some jail snore fit to be inhabited thin IlchesterJail. It ought to ber recollected, that it was said by some Honour able Gentlemen, both at that side of .the House and at the other, that Mr. Hunt was sent to Ilchester Jail as a favour ; but as it was slow proved on incontro vertible evidence that it was not habitable, be thought the-House ought to lose no time in relieving him ; and it should recollect, while the Petition was even printing the individual was suffering. He concluded by observing, that it was the duty of the House to prevent any aggravation of punishment. Mr. SCARLETT said, that as the Hon. Gentle man alluded to him, he merely wished to observe, that at the time the sentence was passed, Ilchester Jail was thought the fittest place of confinement, and general opinion was in its favour. Mr. C. W. WYNN said, that it was the duty of the Magistrates of the County to apply a remedy; that the Crown was vested with no pewer to transmit from one jail to another ; and if it had the power of trans mitting, in order to mitigate punishment, it would also have the power of transmitting to aggravate it. Mr. DENMAN said, that the sentence might be commuted by consent of both parties. Mr. LOCKHART said, that a notice should have been given of a motion to establish the facts in the Petition, before any measures were adopted. Dr. LUSHINGTON said, that it appeared from the Report of the Commissioners, that in the space of nine months, nine distinct orders were made as to the visiting of strangers. The Magistrates unfortu nately resorted to a remedy which aggravated the situation of the individual; they applied to two of the Judges, who made rules which bound them up, and left them no discretion of their own; that was an error the Magistrates had fallen into, because it was never intended that the Judges should lay down rules in such cases; it was only in cases where felons might escape that they had such power, but it never extended to misdemeanours, much less to political offences. The Magistrates were now prevented from acting on their own responsibility, and laying . down another set of rules which would grant more indul gence. He thought it would be of great utility if an inspector were appointed in all jails, to watch the conduct of the jailer, and every transaction with the jail, and when any impropriety occurred to give in formation of it to the Magistrates. The Hon. Gentle man said, it would shortly be his duty to present a Petition from Ikhester, praying that Mr. Hunt's con finement might be mitigated. Mr. Alderman ATKINS supported the Petition. He said, though he was no friend to Mr. Hunt, he otr4lit not to suffer mote punishment than the Judges and the law intended.—The Petition was then laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. Dr. LUSHINGTON presentvd a Petition, signed by many irhabitants of Ilchester, praying for a mitigation of Henry hunt's punishment. Sir ISAAC COFFIN supported the Petition, as he bad been called upon so to do by his constituents.—The Petition was laid on the table, and ordt red to be printed. Sir ROI;EKT WILSON presented another Petition from Eccles, in Lancashire, which, he said, was numerously signed by the inhabitants of that town, praying that Henry Hunt may be released front confinement altogether.. The Petition referred to transactions which he should ever consider as a disgrace t• the County, but it was not now necessary to enter further on them.—The Petition was then brought up and laid on the table. IRISH TITHE'''. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said he rose on a very im portant subject, and prayed the attention of the House while he 'elated the nature of a Petition which he held in his hand ; it was on a subject which he con sidered to form a principal ingredient in the scenes which were now passing in Ireland. The Petition was from the Corporation of the town he had the honour to represent. The Petitioners were the pos sessors of impropriate tithes to a considerable extent: in the Petition they stilt( d that many evils arise from the present tithe system, and called upon the House to make any modification in it which might remove those evils; they also stated that they were confident a modification of the system would reconcile the Laity and Clergy, and, above all, enable the labour ing classes to enjoy their tillage at a cheaper rate than usual. Such was the purport of the Petition ; but to give the House an idea of the system, he would mention a fact, which he had on the most respectable authority, such as left no doubt of its truth. It would convince the house that the Clergy were not those who received the best part of the tithes, but the proctors, or middle men. A Dignitary of the Church who resided in the county of Tipperary, employed a proctor to collect his tithes. The proctor went to a farmer, from whom he demanded 301. as due for tithes; the farmer said it was an overcharge, and lie would not pay it; the proctor replied, that if he would not, he would cite him before the Ecclesiasti cal Court. The farmer, intimidated by the threat of citation, offered him 291. which was all the money lie had. The proctor refused it, and the farmer went to borrow the other 11. On his return he met the Dignitary, to whom he gave the 30/. He asked why he gave him so large a sum, as his tithes amounted only to 111. Such a system, he said, ought to be probed to the bottom. He could not, if he had it not from the most respectable authority, have believed overcharge possible. Under these circum the House would take the tithe sys and concluded by moving ight up. ,aid he would merely observe already ender the consideration He could not now say (timate decision, but as an earnest , t indifferent to them, they di appointed to examine into Mr.LANGSTON said the on the tithe system, ought not to be eatillsed to he land, it should also be attended to in,England. Mr. HUMS said he was also anxious tole= from the Noble Mirquisif the tithe system' in England oc copied tho attention of Government: he could assure him it was one of considerable importance ? The Petition was then laid on the table. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, as he was aware the Petition was under the consideration of Government, he would do no more than present the Petition: how ever, the existence of the evil was undisputed. Lord EBRINGTON wished to learn if there was any measure in contemplation se itls regard to the tithe for land ? system _ The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he was not aware that any measure was in contemplation ; but if information was required, it was usual to give notice of it. AGRICULTURAL LISTRISS. Lord EBRINGTON rose to present a Petition from Hans, South Devonshire, signed by two hundred re spectable inhabitants. It set out with representing the great degree of agricultural distress that existed,. and prayed a repeal of the salt, malt, leather, and soap taxes. The Noble Lord appealed to the Hon. Member for Exeter (Mr. Newman), as to the respect ability of the petitioners, and concluded by moving that the Petition be brought up. Mr. NEWMAN bore testimony to the respectabi lity of the petitioners, and the truth of the allega tions in the Petition as to the existence of agricurtu-s ral distress.—Laid on the table, and to be printed. NAVY FIVE PER CENTS. Mr. ELLICE rose, and said he held in his hand a Petition from an individual residing at Brompton. The petitioner Complained that he had not sufficient time to declare, as he was obliged to consult four trustees, who were not in the country at present, and prayed that such alteration be made in the Bill as would give him time. The lion. Gentleman moved that the Petition be brought up. The-CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was advisable that the Bill should pass without de lay and in its present form, leaving to the House to apply a remedy to any particular case that may occur. Mr. TIERNEY said he wished to learn on what , day the Report was to be brought up? He was also of opinion that the Bill should be as little conform able as possible to Mr. Pelham's Bill. • After some conversation across the table, between the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER and Mr. TIER.. NEY, it was agreed that the Report be brought up on Thursday next. ' Mr. GRENIFELL wished to know if any agree went had been made with the Bank as to remunera tion for its services in the proposed measure? In the loans made by the Bank during the war, the Cashier received a remuneration of £BOO on every million. It would appear that a sum of £4.00,000 had been paid to the Cashier for these labours. The House ought now to consider that the sum to be dealt with was 155 millions, and that, however low the per tentage might be, it would become very considerable cm so large a sutra. Unless some alterations were made in the Bill on those points, he (Mr. Grenfell) should think it his duty to give it his decided opposition. On the motion that the Petition be read, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished t•) notice, that as it was through the agency of the Bank of England the business was to be transacted with the holders of the Stock, there was a blank for a clause in the Bill to provide for a remuneration to that Corporation for the trouble which would neces sarily devolve on them. It was not, however, yet possible to know what trouble they wculd be at, and for that reason he thought proper to leave the ques tion open for the consideration of the House. Mr. G RENFELL thought that the advantages al ready derived to the Bank of England from the ma nagement of the public money, would be a full and fair remuneration for any additional trouble they might have on the present occasion. He had an ac count put into his hands which stated those advan tages. They should not then seek remuneration fot any little set vices of that kind. On account of the management of the public monies for Government, the Bank was paid annually £270,000. That was the sum which they received last year, and would conti nue to receive, unless Government reduced the al lowance. Besides the charge for management, they derived other considerable advantages from their deal ings with Government. They had last year a balance of the public money in their hands of nearly four millions—it was no less than £3,900,000. On that sum they had, by their discounts, as much profit as any private bank. If the Exchequer Bills to the amount of £1,400,000, which formed a part of that £t4900,000 were deducted from it, there would be a remainder of £2,500,000, which, at 3 per cent. per annum, would give a profit of £75,000. He would state, without fear of contradiction, that all the ser vices rendered by the Bank of England would be per formed by a private bank for the mere use of such a balance lying in their hands; if the wisdom of Go. vernment allowed another Banking Corporation, they need be at no loss by the management of the public money. A private bank, he was well convinced, would do for £lO,OOO, what the Bank of England received a sum of between four and £500,000 tor. Sir ROBERT WILSON said, that while on that subject, he would put to the Noble Marquis (Lon donderry) a question on a subject which was connected with it, and which, in his opinion, was entitled to an answer. The question which he wished to put was, whether, within a few days past, any advices had reached his Majesty's Government, by which they would be enabled to entertain any opinion on a sub ject to which strong allusion was made in his Majesty's Speech from the Throne, on the opening of the Ses sion of Parliament—he meant the continuance of peace between Russia and Turkey ? The Marquis of LONDON DE R RY having . restated the question, observed that it was unwise in Hon. Members to ask such questions,which were calculated to excite alarm. To obviate the effect of the ques tion put to him, he was very happy to say that there was so room for alarm. not mesa to attribute any improper motives to the Hon. Member, but he wished tosourage the put ting of questions, the tendency of which would be to' create alarm.—:After a few wards from Mr. ELLICE, Mr. HUME said that he would wish to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Ex cliequer) whit remuneration he intended for the Bank ? The Bank of England had profited well by the public money. Tbey - had received so much for their management during the war, that they became the richest banking corporation in gurope. The Bank of Ireland managed the public money of that country without any remuneration. In one way or another, a sum of 940,0001. or 860,0001. was paid annually to the Bank. He hoped the House would not suffer the Bill to pass without negativing the clause granting any remuneration to the Bank for any trifling additional trouble that might be given them by that business. The Bank received too much for their services, and the country had a right to expect that Government would make a reduction in the allowances.—The Petition was then read and or- dered to lie on tLe table. Mr. BENNET asked if the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) meant to carry the Bill through -its several stages that night? for if he did, he would feel it his duty to oppose it. The C H A NC E LLOR °idle EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Navy Five per Cents. Transfer Bill. Mr. GRENFELL suggested that it would be ad visable to leave out the clause which, in general terms, empowered the Treasury to remunerate per sons for assisting to carry the Bill into execution. At present it was impossible to tell what would be the necessary labour of the Bank, and he strongly ob jected to the clause in its present general state. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the circumstance of the degree of labour being as yet unascertainable, was, in his opinion, a reason for adopting the clause, subject to the futute approba tion of Parliament. The House having resolved itself into a Commit tee, the Bill was agreed to, except the clause in ques tion; upon the reading of which, Mr. GRENFELL said, he certainly should take the sense of the Committee upon the subject. Mr. ELLICE said, that on the third reading of die Bill he should propose a clause respecting the time allowed for dissenting to the measure. Mr. GRENFELL said, the reasoning of the Chan cellor of the Exchequer had not convinced him. He did not think the number of assenters or dissenters would materially affect the labour of the Bank ; but whether it did or not, he thought it would be better to make the necessary arrangement with the Bank in the first instance. He therefore moved that the clause empowering the Treasury to remunerate be left out.—Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Committee divided, when there appettred, For retaining the clause - 76 For rejecting it - - 39 Majority - —37 On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, Mr. CALCRAFT was addressing the Committee. He complained of the shortness of the time allowed for dissenting to the measure. It would, in effect, be no more than five days. Mr. MABERLEY also thought the time too short. He trusted it would be extended, for he was sure the measure would give general satisfaction when consi dered out of doors. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the time quite sufficient. A longer time was allowed to trustees than to those who held the Stock in their own right, and who might be supposed to make up their minds more readily than trustees. Mr. CALCRAFT disclaimed any wish to retard the Bill; but he still hoped that further time would be granted for the expression of dissent. Mr. ELLICE said many questions would arise out of the Bill which must be answered satisfactorily before some of the holders could express their dis sent. For instance, if one of several trustees dis sented, and the rest assented, it might be proper to consider the effect of this difference of opinion. Mr. MONCK highly approved of the measure it self; but for that reason he wished that time should be given for those who were interested in it to give it due consideration. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said the Public could not be considered as having notice of the Bill until it had passed. Nu one, he believed, could doubt its bene ficial operation; but that of itself ought to support the application for time. Mr. CALCRAFT said it was by no means impro bable that the Bill would not receive the Royal as sent until the 16th of this month, the day mentioned for the first class to express their dissent. Unless time were given, he feared the Public would, though er roneously, suspect that something was purposely hid. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the principal information which the holders of the Stock could require, was that which appeared by figures and sums, and these had already been pub lished in the Resolutions of the House. Mr. ELLICE said, that any person interested in the Stock might petition the other House, and pray to be heard by Counsel against the measure; and this alone might retard the course of the Bill. He feared there would be some difficulty in carrying into effect the proposed plan of paying off the dissenters in turn. It was probable that the letters of dissent would be very numerous in the last hour of the last day. There might also be a difference in the value of the Stock, occasioned by the dissent being early or late. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the plan of paying off the dissenters had been clearly laid down. The letters Mould be numbered, and the writers would be paid off by their number. Mr. ELLICE said, he had no wish to cavil at the measure,' but really it appeared to him mote and more impracticable after every explanation. Mr. T. WILSON said, there would be much diffi culty as to the course to be taken - by executors,• who were required to pay annuities secured upon the in tere4t arising from this Stuck. It might be a Ties; . not hove a clai m 's estate, to snake ip EXCHEQUER said, their money is this knowledge of the ' the probable MINN in the case he b a d mentioned by way of explanation, the legacy duty would have been rid to Government on the full amount of the annuity. Mr. MABEHLEY thought mach confusion would arise in consequence of the difficulty suggested by the last speaker; for trustees would, if possible, shift their Stock, in order to avoid responsibility. Mr. MARTIN expressed his doubts as to the poi s k bility of carrying the MOURN into execution. He had spoken to several Bankers, and persons connected with the Bank of England, who had expressed theft belief that it was impracticable. He wished to as k the Right Hon. Gentleman whether he had any coma munication with the Bank on the subject? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he had of course communicated with the Bank on the subject. They thought it was,• in all respects, practicable—The House then resumed, and the lie port was brought up, and ordered to be taken u.to consideration on Thursday. SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX CHEQUER for going into a Committee of Supply, and referring the Army Estimates to said Committee, Mr. DENMAN wished, before the House should Oo into Committee, to make an observat ion on th e rders of the Day. It was not unusual in that House to put important Acts through second and third readings about one •r two o'clock in the morn ing, when only a few Members were in the Hot . That was the case on the morning of Saturday last, when a very important Act went through its third reading. He meant the Act for indemnifying per sons who took arms from persons in Ireland. The Bill affected persons who had perhaps already urn menced proceedings against the Magistrates or o•rer persons who had seized their arms, which they kept for the defence of themselves or property. Ile mei ely mentioned that, in order to draw the attention of the House to another Bill, which stood among t he orders of that day, and was about paising into a law. He meant the Smugglers' Commitment Bill. He hoped the. Representatives for the maritime coun ties would look to that Bill. By that Bill, which went farther than the 57th of the late King, the Ma gistrates might take up any unfortunate person sus pected of that illicit trading, and their decision was final. He hoped the Bill would be ordered to be printed-and postponed. After a few words from Mr. WA RRE and Mr. BENNET, the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. Lord PALMERSTON rose and said, it was his intention to contrast the number and expense of the Army for the present year, with the estimates of last year, and to slew that there was a just reduction in both for the present year. The number of men which would be proposed for the current year was less by 12,304 than the number required for the last year. There was also a reduction in the charge to the amount of 537,449/. There were one or two mis prints in the estimates, whicra he would correct as he went on. Thete were different modes for carrying into effect those reductions • but the most advis !blo was that by the reduction Of Companies, as it com bined the greatest saving of expense with other ad vantages. There were two entire regiments of ca valry to be reduced, and two troops in each remain ing regiment. The Noble Lord proceeded to state the different reductions in the number of forces, as well min the charges for their maintenance. The charge for the Royal Military College was 13,662/. in which there was a saving, as compared with the vote of last year, of 3,2531. This decrease was attri butable, first to a reduction of the public officers, by which 10001. was gained ; and, secondly, to an increase in the number of students who paid con tributions. The charge for Army pay of General Officers was 182,4251. 181.7d.—:ontrasted with tl e vote of last year, there was in this vote an increase of 83561. This was occasioned by Government acting upon an arrangement pressed upon them by the House, of making a better provision for General Of ficers with Regimental Commissions. It was the in tention to allow to such General Officers the full pay of their Commissions, though upon the half-pay list. —The charge for Garrisons in Great Britain was 35,1531. less by 60901. than the vote oflast year.— The charge for full pay to retired Officers was 145,2341. in which, as contrasted with the same vote last year, there was an increase of 15,0001. This was occasioned by the number of Officers transferred to this list by the reduction of the Veteran Battalions. It was, however, but a transfer of expense from one list to another, for those Officers who were now charged under the retired head, were charged last year at their full pay. The next charge was the Half-pay and Military Allowances, which this year amounted to 870,8101. 18s. lid. There was also a saving in this vote as contrasted with that of last year of 51,0001. This was occasioned by several in the list obtaining CommissiOns. The Officers were taken as the vacancies occurred. The charge for Foreign Half-pay was 114,870!. in which there was a dimi nution of 68951. contrasted with last year. This saving was owing to some reductions which had been made, and principally to the abolition of the Agent for the Foreign Half-pay, the duties of which were transferred to the Agent of the Home Half-pay. -The charge for In-pensioners of Kilmainham anti Chelsea Hospitals was 58,912/. 14s. 4d. in • which there was a decrease of 68531. For Out-pensioners . of the same, the charge was 1,181,1471. 9s. 9d. in which there was an increase of 34,0001. owing to the reductions in the Regiments of the Army. The Royal Military Asylum was charged at 26,1491. 14s. tid. which was 60001. less than list year. The charge for Widows Pensions was 124,2761. 19s. 2d. in which there was an increase of 35821. There was also an increase in the Compassionate List for bounty war rants and pensions for wounds. The charge for super annuated allowances was 43,9584 in which there was an increase of 37811. The charge for Exchequer Fees was 33,0001. in which there was an increase of 30001. Of the Veteran Battalions ten had been re duced, and only three remained, but he could not say when it was probable these could be reduced, on towards Mr. Hunt, and perhaps his confinement. He felt it doe Sheriff of Somersetshire, to state such an overcnarge posse stances he hoped the Hou , tern into consideration, ai that the Petition be broug Mr. GOULBURN said s that the question was alrea ri u sh b j G beec o t ver . nm . eat. P mi ghtw th of h a a th t t th e e l i ts ultimata was not hi rested the 1111,1111011 ell .• • • ".! due practice o f i b e Le t lvat 14 . 1edend, as sum 'At BAMPON said that the Ilieble dot whither the *rnoitants woo l ( of their present lalitiers • liktdre Wu. mom to •suppose that his object its 1140 s upon the residue of their teltlMOes to Hie gentles of the Eeclesi . • eleertherfr wiewith a eirew to senate darm. •na delcietiey. • as e Mr.ELLICE *idled that Gdvetvelestashonld take Vi!se. 'Set he was trim= foe potions whe had an In. The CHANCELLOR, of the E Ate subject into Consideration as sees esisossible. la the Navy Frye, per Cents. and it would be that all persons who had invested ire in - T con: hi n GOULBURN said he we not - then prepared desirable, on their loeount, to know if Goveranteat Fend had done so with a full knot t up. to state a ny specific measure, but so* that the sub- were possession of information to the area which and a presumed knowledge of tl Df the Je t t was under the consideration of Government. • beeetW, as tbe Stocks would be affected. thereby ? owege o f disk doing so. I- now Rif. r.ANGsTON said theattentionof Chverament, The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he did Mr. T. WILSON - said, that i - to the 111/mtioned by war of esplanade