Star. — London, England, 1808-03-15 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, MARCH 14. The Bishop of Carlisle took the oaths and his seat. The Royal Marine Mutiny Bill, and the American Commis sioners Bill were read a second time, and committed for to-mor- row. The Sugar Bounty Bill and Sugar Drawback Bill, were read a third time and passed. Mr. WH muroN, and several other Members of the House of Commons, brought up the Orders in Council Bill. The Earl of SUFFOLK postponed his motion respecting Mr. Garlicke's Dispatches till Monday. Lord HOLLAND moved for several returns respecting the Recruiting for the Army, and Volunteering from the Militia — which were ordered. DANISH PROPERTY. A long conversation was held between Lords SIDMOUTH and HARROWBY, on the production of papers relative to the number and value of Danish ships detained on the departure of Admiral Gambier from Yarmouth, with the view to their resti tution, and to the liberation of the crews. Lord SEUMOUTH he should make some motions on this subject on Friday next. said LORD LAKE. The Bill for granting an Annuity to the Successor of the late Lord Lake, was read a second time, after some observations from Lords GROSVENOR and HARROWEY. Lord HOLLAND gave notice that he shouli postpone his pro posed Motion until Wednesday next. SWEDEN. Lord MULGRAVE rose to correct a mistake which had arisen on Friday, in an answer given by him to a question put by a Noble Earl (Grey) whe ther the subsidy due on the former treaties with Swe den was included in the present subsidy, or whether the latter was to be considered as an addition to the former. He had then, however, stated, that he did not wish to be conside red as giving a positive answer. The fact was, that the former subsidiary treaties were at an end, and all sums due upon them paid up. The subsidy in the present treaty, therefore, formed the whole sum to be paid to the King of Sweden. Earl GREY thought it might become a question in point of fact, whether the last treaty was at an end. Lord MULGRAVE, in explanation, maintained, that the treaty was at an end, and that it was so con sidered by Sweden. On the Order of the Day being read for taking in to consideration his Majesty's Message, Lord HAWKESBURY was anxious to avoid touching on any point which could tend to prevent unanimity, where, in his opinion, it was so desirable upon a question fbr granting assistance and s u pport to a faithful Ally, who adhered to us in spite of all the difficulties with which be Was surrounded, and who was now the only independent State remaining uninfluenced by France : . This subsidy was not given for the purpose of forming a confederacy, respecting which there could be any doubt, but to assist our Ally in defending himself against a powerful confe deracy, consisting partly of those Powers who had all along bccn his enemies, and partly of those Powers' who had recently been his friends. Neither was there any thing in the treaty to preclude the King of Swe den from making an honourable and secure peace, if an opportunity occurred of which he could take ad-I vantage. As had been stated by his Noble Friend, this subsidy formed the whole of the sum to be paid to the King of Sweden, and it was to be paid by monthly sums of 100,0001. He trusted, that under all the circumstances of this case, and after the splen did example sLeven by the King of Swedenof magna nimity and fidelity, there would be no objeCtiosi to the grant of the assistance and support now asked. His Lordship concluded by moving an address to kis Ma jesty, declaring the cheerful concurrence of the House in the object of the Message. Lord GRENVILLE said the Noble Lard had ad dressed the feelings of their Lordships upon this subject with respect to the situation of the King of Sweden, and although it was no light matter at the present moment, after 15 years of great exertions, to add 1,200,0001. to the public burthens, yet the ground of this vote was one so intimately corrected with all those principles of honour and good faith which ought to regulate the conduct of the country, that he could not give his ne gative to the motion. He was glad to hear from the Noble Secretary, that no attempt was to be made to prevent Sweden from making a separate peace, if it should appear advantageous to do so ; of this he high ly approved, but such being the case, he was at a loss to c laceive why an article was introduced into the treaty which stipulated that neither Power should make peace without the consent of the other. Cir cumstanced as Sweden was, there could be no recipro city in the execution of such an article. Upon the principle, however, that this country ought to shew to Europe, that, eves in the midst of difficulties, she was ready to lend aid and assistance to a faithful ally, he should not make any opposition to the motion. The motion was put and carried, and the address ordered to be presented by the Lords with white staves. IRELAND. The Earl of HARDWICKE resumed the subject \kb he mentioned on Friday, for the purpose of _ _ tefending his conduct whilst Lord Lieutenant of ;re -14, against misrepresentations which had been ale respecting the dismissal of Mr. Gifford from an Ace in the Revenue. The Noble Lord entered into . brief detail of the meetings of the-Catholics in the year 1805, and the Petition then agreed by them to presented to Parliament, highly praised the ton tct of the Earl of Fingal, and stated that he then :eived instructions from the Noble Lord opposite, ten Secretary of State for the Home Department, discourage, as much as possible, the expression any Protestant feeling respecting the Catholic Pe ion, and to discourage any counter Addresses or 'etitions from Grand Juries, or any other pnblic podies, it being wished to confine the discussion within ie walls of the Houses of Parliament. 'These in itructions he endeavoured to execute, and several persons were spoken to upon the subject ; amongst ethers, Mr. GifEad, who afterwards, in centradiction this wish, having made the motion iu the Com ion Council of Dublin, respecting the Catholics, which was a matter of notoriety, and being consider- NI as connected with Government, was dismissed. 1 - le thought it right to state that, 'at this dismissal, some regret was expressed by Ministers. His Lord ship read some extracts of letters respecting the facts which he had stated, and concluded by moving for the correspondence between the Secretary of State for he Home Department, and the Lord Lieutenant of ireland in the year 1805, respecting any instructions for discouraging any discussions tespecting the Ca-' tholic r etitio W n- Lord 1-J lOW RY admitted the Noble Earl's statement to be correct, but observed, that the con- duct of Mr. Giffard could not dpon that occasion be I .justified;* yet that allowances might be made far an Irritation of mind, caused by the loss of several near relations in the rebellion, and other circumstances, which induced him and the rest of his Majesty's Minis ters to regret his dismissal, and td wish that some com pensation might be made for him. That compensation had now been provided by a new appointment. His Lordship spoke warmly in praise of the present Lord Lieutenant (the Duke of Richmond), and declared his intention of opposing _the motion. The Earl of HARDWICKE, in explanation, ob served, that he never intended that Mr. Giffard should be proscribed for ever ; but something that subse quently passed rendered it impossible for him to in terfere in his favour. Lord GRENVILLE thought his Noble Friend could have done no otherwi , x than he did in carrying into execution the instructions he received from the Ministers here ; of which instructions he highly ap proved, although he could not help remarking the different cotaduct pursued in this country within the last twelve months. He thought, however, his Noble Friend had been hardly treated, in being blamed by Ministers for executing those instructions which those Ministers themselves had given. Lor HOLLAND quoted an expression of Mr. Fox, approving of the conduct of the Noble Earl, which he believed to refer to this circumstance. The Motion was withdrawn. ORDEn~ IV COUN:IL RILL. Lord GRENVILLE, on the first reading of this Bill being proposed, without entering into the m erits, examined at considerable length the objections to it in point of form. The Order of 1702 was by his Lord hip's desire read, purporting that no Money Bill brought up from the House of Commons should be discussed in that House, containing matter irrele vant to its immediate object as a Money Bill. He then resumed his speech, distinguishing a variety of respecting in the Bill, reecting the mode of bringing actions, the imports of East-India goods, and parti cularly the preainble and concluding paragraph ; in all which, he said, the rule laid do w n in the odes, was entirely abandoned, and that with the respect their Lordships would think due to their own orders and proceedings, it was impossible to admit the read ing of this Bill. Lord HAW KE S BURY said, that the rule in regard to Money Bills was not so strict as the Noble Baron seemed to suppose ; but he thought the objec tion ought to be gravely considered, and he should therefore prepcse that the Bill should he printed, and that the discussion (.11 the matter of privilege should be debated on Wednesday next. After some further remarks from Lords Grenville, Sidmouth. and Derby, the proposition of Lord Hawkes bury was agreed to.—Adjourned. to coi Lo touch unani upon to a f the di who uninfl for th whict Ally derac along who I any t' den fi an of aria this s. to the mont all th did e nimit Kt ant Lord jesty, in thi Lc dress with altho after to th one 5 of hc cond gatiN Nobl prer shou ly al to c treat malt cum city p rim to E was sl T orde T whic defer laud mad OS( a br Year be p duct recci then to d of a titio Peti hod the stxu per , oth , to t mo wh ed sot ski wl thi tb fo It .4. HOUSE 0: 7 CONTMON4. The I'ow-co-ripe Clay Colonial Export Bill, and the Irish Su gar Drawbaek Duties BM were reported-3d reading to-morrow. Leav , wos given for the introduction of the Annual Qualifica doe Indtsnrity EilL Mr.-SHAWE brought up the ,St. Pancras Paving Bill, which wis read a first aad ordered to be re.id a second time. Sir IL MILDMAY presented a Pei s ition from the Mechanics of Portsmouth Dock-yard, agahtst the In. - come Tax.—Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. JOH,NSTONE, from the Office of Chief Secretary in Ire land, presented an Account of the Tiede and kiavigation of that Country Air duet yeas*, ending January, 1,803.--Ordeeed to lie on the table. A Copy of the Greenwich Hospital Charter was presented, and ordered to he on the table. en the motion of Sir C. POLE, it was Ordered to be printed. The Hon. Baronet gave notice for to-morrow le'unight of a mo tion on the subject. HOCH F.FORT SQUADRON. Mr. WEI.I.ESLEY POl.E,after *toting his desire that the 140V112 should be in possession of the e•tiole case respecting the supplies of the Rozn. fort Squadron, moved, that there be laid be fore the House, Copies of all such Orders as had been given by the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty, relative to the reliev ing of the Ships employed i.t the blockade of Rochefort, and sup plying the squadron with provisions ; as also the Orders of the Victualling Board in November, December, and January last ; to gether with those of Admirals Young, Sec. on the same.subject. Mr. CALCItAFT had no objection whatever to the motion. On the contrary, i: was his wish that every thing which could throw any light on the subject should be produced—he was glad to ut:th:rstand that both these papers and those formerly moved for, w..re to be presented to-morrow. Tile motion was then agreed ta. Mr. HUSKISSON moved, that an bumble Address be pre. tented to his Majesty, that he would be pleased to order, that the: ehe laid before the House , Copie s of certain Orders in Un cil of the 12th, the 15th, the 18th and 20th of January, 1808 ;•of the i 2th of February, 1808; and the 29th of December, 1807, relative to the measures taken with respect to certain American ships---he also moved an Address for a Copy of the Warrant of Oct. 1307, relative to the intercourse with Portugal.—Ordered. EXPORTS TO COPENHAGID I . Mr WHITBREAD moved for an Account of the Value of all Exports front Great Britain to Denmark, in 1805, 8, till the Ist of January in each 'tzar, distinguishing British Maas factures from Foreign Produce,--Ordered. DIALHUNKIRY =ACTION. Mr. LASCELLES reported bean the Committee on the Maime;bury Election, that the Committee had determined that the sitting Members were duly elected, and that the petition was not frivolous or vexatious. 00TroN WOOL EXPORT PROHIBITION BILL. On the gut...ion fdr the third reading of the Cotton Wool En. Port Prohibition Bill, Mr. WHITBREAD wished it to be defter red, toe* Bill had not been printed, Mr.:rFERNEY said, there were petitions ready to be presents led against k but they had been deferred, owing to an idea on the par% of the petitioners, that they were safe until the Bill should be printed. Aftcr a few words from Mr. PERCEVAL, the third reading of the Hll, and the third reading of the Cotton Wool Duty Bill, were deterred until Wednesday. DARDANELLES. Mr. CAI99NG presented, pursuant to Address, a Copy of a 'Treaty between his Majesty and the Ottoman Porte,--Ordered to lie on the tahle„—He stated, that other Papers from the Ad miralty on the subject of the Dardanelles would be presented to morrow.. COLD BATH FIELDS PRISON. Mr. SUMNER called the attention of the House to the Petition respecting Cold Bath Fields Prison.— Not having seen the Right Honourable Gentleman who presented it in his place, he was obliged to ask some of his friends op the other side, whether he in tended to bring forward any motion on that Petition on an early day ?—lf he did not, then he himself gave notice of a mot on on the subject on Thursday. Mr. WHITBREAD said, that his Right Hon. Friend was in theHoue at an early hour on Saturday. Losux)N PETITION: Mr. Alderman COMBE moved that the. Petition of the American merchants aretinst the Orders in C oun cil Bill sh ould be taken into consideration, as:d Counsel heard on Th,ursday.—Ordered. Sir C. PRICE presented a petition from the Mer chants of London trading to the Continent, expressive of their support to the late Orders in Council. Mr. TIEItNEY asked of what description the pe titioners were ? Sir C. PRICE replied , that they were a Society long established, and composed of men of the highest r espectability, who had been for a length of time in the habit of supplying all the wants of the people on the Continent. Mr.WHITBREAD thonght such a petition ought not to be received. It was ridiculous to 'imagine there could be any such society. Mr. SHARPE said he had never heard of such a Society. Lord TEMPLE objected to the petition, as it stood precisely in the same predicament with Mr. Sheridan's late petition from the Grand Jury of Mid dlesex, respecting the abuses in Cold - bath -fields Pri son, which was not a petition from a Jury, but from a part of one. Sir J. NEWPORT entertained the same opinion. Sir C. PRICE explained. Mr. HIBBERT said the petition bore to be one from the Society of Merchants trading to the Conti / nent. He had never heard of such a Society, and such was utterly unknown. They were, he believed, a Club, and in that light the petition surely ought not to be received. He ought also to state, that there were many foreigners belonging to that Club. Mr. PONSONBY remarked, that there must be many foreigners concerned in the petition, as there were parts of it written in bad English. Mr. BARING spoke against receiving the petition. Mr. CANNING said there were several errors of a clerical nature in the petition, but it ought to be re ceived as the petition of those individuals by whom it had been signed, as the Hous.r could not be responsi ble for the style in. which the petition might be couched. Mr. TIERNEY conceived the Petition could not I be received. It was from a Society called the Society I of Merchants trading with the Continent; but suppose a general meeting of the Merchants of London, and that they should agree to a Petition directly the re verse, the consequence would be, that these Mer chants would be properl.: designated, and their peti tion of course would be received. This petition, it would appear, had come from a Club of Odd Soul:, who met occasionally for purposes of a convivial na ture, and whose first toast always is, The Minister, for the time being." He objected to the petition, therefore, as it stated a thing not true, that there was such a Society as the Merchants trading to the,Con tinent. Besides, he had a curiosity to see the names of those men who declared they had felt the scourge of the Orders in Council. Mr. CANNING thought the objections to the pe tition were not so serious as some Gentlemen would represent, nor was the title which the petitioners as sumed so arrogant as some Gentlemen represented.— He recollected to have belonged to a Society with the Right Honourable Gentleman, called The Likrary Club, the title of which, through a motive of pure modesty, was changed to that of The Club. (A loud lavh.) The SPEAKER said, that the entry of the peii don on the votes would describe the petitioners pre cisely as they had designated themselves. Mr. SHERIDAN and Lord FOLKESTONE spoke against the reception of the petition, and, after a short conversation, Sir C. Pare t consented to with draw it. THE ARMY. The SECRETARY at WAR moved the Order of the Day, for the third reading of the Mutiny Bill. Lord CASTLEREAGH, that it be now read a third time." Mr. CALC RAFT having amendments to propose for the purpose of doing away that part of the Bill which allowed enlistment for life and the oath, wished to know which was the proper time to offer them to the House. The SPEAKER informed him that any amend ment to a clause would be proper ar the time that clause was read ; and that any gecieral objection to the Bill or Cl.luse to be introduced, would come with propriety as soon as theiorder was read. This being done, • Sir FRANCIS BURDET'T rose. The House, he said, could not be taken by surprize with the mo tion he intended to propose, as a Noble Friend of his (Lord Folkestone) had apprised them on a former night, of his intention to insert a clause, that no Offi cer should be cashiered or dismissed the service with out being tried and sentenced by a Court Martial.— This regulation appeared to him to be of much portance to the service, to the interest of the Crown, and the welfare of the country. What he had to pro pose would be so moderate and unexceptionable, that be trusted the House would at once agree with him, 1 and that no objection would be made from any quar ter. As yet he had heard of none, but only a loose rumour of its being an encroachment on the Royal Prerogative. He would endeavour to shew that it was not so, but even were that the case, he trusted in that House it would be uo insurmountable obstacle, if at tle same time it could be made out that the Pre rogative was mischievous and dangerous in its ten dency ; if it could be shewn that the army was, as it hid often been considered, an encroachment on the public rights, dangerous to the liberties, and adding greatly to the• burdens of the people. if this could be shewn, he hoped the Prerogative would never be put in competition with such Constitutional principles ; but it was not necessary to shew it ; for he held that the Prerogative never could be at variance with the good of the People. His purpose was to procure for Officers that right which was allowed to all but them, and that they might also feel the beneficial effects of the Constitution. That they ought not to stand na ked and defenceless, liable to misrepresentations and slanders, and in every . respect in a worse condition than the rest of the subjects. It would not be thought 1 unreasonable in him to demand, neither would it be difficult for him to shew that no man ought to be pu nished, without the possibility of being heard in his own defence. Yet such was the situation of the Offi cers of the British army. They were liable to suffer in character and in fortune, without knowing either their accuser or the accusation against them. By guarding them against this in future, discipline would in his opinion, be essentially promoted, and the clause he had in contemplation would effect this, for it would create the distinction necessary to be made between those who were dismissed in con sequence of conduct that called for such punish ment, and those who fell sacrifices to malice and influence exerted falsely against them. In this pbint of view, it would have a doubly good effect, by tion preventing the guilty from as rept stun se in i g ua the guiltless, and ascribing is other causes own demerits, the disgrace of thei r own .• i p t e r w h o a u p l s d w s a a v n e te f d r o o m n l i y n j a u f rlt h 0 e irons to his Majesty, to entitle them ation. As Ise did not wish to make CMbut only to amend the future, h e recurring to particular cases. saiily that this clause would bear hard ving to be dismissed, and anxious to grace, and were inclined to retire volt,. service ; but he was not aware that such could for a moment be sustained. still further beneficial effect than he had , it would assimilate the army to the other constitution of the country, which had v all appearance of hardship or sev.erit ) son of the Sovereign, and wisely clothed w ith a ll these amiable prerogatives justice to the worthy, and mercy even This his motion did not trench upon, the prerogative ; and he only desired ' the offiter, the same enjoyment of the beneficial acts of the Crown, with class 'of the community were bleseed. effects might it not be expected to prods vice, if officers felt themselves under stitutional protection the meanest of ed ; it must implant in their minds I wish to support the constitutionl It those officers who were Members of , the suspicion, that the rewards they more the result of Parliamentary, ti merit. In former times, every thing ; army was looked at with the utmost Wa , now tenfold more necessary to to be left naked to the dark assassir, malice--to be whispered out of character, honou r , and life—to worse than what the most atrociou s en . minal was exposed to ?—For it was worse to any i nn of honourable feelings to have a slur thrown tipaai l i s character, than to endure any punishment that cede be devised. In order to give them a security wa ut these evils—in order to protect the highest authority from doing that from designing and false insinuation., which it would never wish to do but on the best of in. formation, it was that he ventured to propose this clause. It would not be contended that there ins not a sufficient power in Courts Martial to prestrve discipline, and to punish offenders ; their patient.= fiorn the highest offence down to what was tardy& I gentlemanly conduct, so that they were fully tent to every purpose. Having thus shoray soma the, objects of his clause, and the good of thought it calculated to p roduce, he trusted it woad meet the approbation of the House. The Honourable Baronet concluded by moving the insertion of& dada to the effect before stated. The SECRETARY at WAR was sntry he could not comply with the proposition of the Honourable Baronet, who had not made out any fair ground for so material an alteration in the. military system. The Honourable Baronet had dweh upon the hardships of Officers being deprived of their rank and commis. sions. It was but too true that there were MAIN hardships attending a military life ; and if some a. curity could not be given to the Country, with the dispensing power, it would be impossible for the Army to exist. Were the Army rendered ietlea • pendent of the Sovereign, the most dangerous cone, quenes would result. Lord FOLKESTONE supported the clause; Mt' ' insisted, that the Honourable Baronet had stated ami pie grounds for its introduction. It was well homy that great abuses prevailed,. in many instances, ail that such - oppressions had been resorted to as never had been heard of before. The arguments of his Honourable Friend were, in his mind, irresivible, and 'by no means did the clause go against the Pune five of the Crown, but when it might be a partial and cruel manner. His Lordship thrifme recommended the Honourable Baronet to wails the clause, and introduce it in a separate Bill. Colonel DUCKETT opposed the clause, 01 Se` count that it would be making the army judges ia its own cause ; and also, as it proppsed to refuse, fordo first time, the placing confidence in the Crown, When we had a Sovereign who of all others had best do served it. General FITZPATRICK said, that when he bed proposed any change in the constitution of the armY, he had always stated reasons which appeared to hi to make it n:thatter of necessity. The military laws were naturally regarded in that House with a meet prejudice ; and those who were particularly attached tathe principles of the Constitution, applied arguments to these laws which were not at all suited to the as. tune of the case. They were a necessary evil, 04 ought not to be interfered with. The Honourable Baronet had been complimented for his mos ieratios,: in not going into past abuses ; but he w as bound * make out the strongest case before a change of thir kind could be for a moment contemplated. 'The pre- .1 position, therefore, had his decided negative. . Sir F. BURDETT was proceed in g to reel'', "1112 he was called to order by General Tarleton ; mod* Speaker declared the right of reply, ere* ' I avowed at the time of making die motion, was NSW of mere indulgence, and therefore the H aeeane Baronet could not proceed, if objected to. General FITZPATRICK was anxious that in Honourable Baronet should be heard ; and General TARLETON said, that in calling MI Honourable Baronet to order, he assured him he was not influenced by any other motive than a wish 54 support the Orders of the House. He professedererl respect for the Honourable Member. Sir F. BURDETT said, that the interruptionwel. scarcely necessary, as he had determine d, in com e . ance with the suggestion of his Noble Fiend b#na him (Lord Folkestone) to withdraw his motion for the present, and submit it at a future period in a , form to the House The motio n was accordel. withdrawn, the Chancellor of the Exchequer wisi it to tie distinctly understood that though he asp a te* tome motion being withdrawn, he did not at pof it as a proper subject of discussion at 1 future period. LIMITED SERVICES. Mr. CALCRAFT next rose, and enlarged. o : 6 ' uo. siderably upon the impropriety of the clause M duced into this Bill by a Noble Lord opposite ( I '_ Castlereagh), for the purpose of doingaway the nr sures of the former Government, by giving an. °P. D T to the men to enlist for life, instead of a limited nog' slat - obit t i vr p ot c oscal i i" rt esco &kit f , I go faro 0 trial Now m ixe a a rk the Wert :n G, 'std 14AI' '.isittali id& I , • bei was t A i . b cow iiivi (Us • y., th e rnlng the charaetet • ther causes than the e ' L er ieir ow n di sm i ssal, k d deserving office rs se h o esentation of thei r ac. ter"". them to his collide. a !W IC " - make refl ect i onsoe de v ie t oOk a v • :ure, he would al istfet ' Adn iti ses. He had heard u ' Ives °u ! ar hard on th ose deem t m sus to avoid public d; lite: ire voluntardyf roce to the I; that such an ob'..:. et' ' • a. • led. It would .are • *sesP ec ,„,,; t , in he had yet stated, Is • vinr_ .. „.,t— f o a the other parts of she . 111 c;;T s ict . ich had wisely meow stCl • sencrity from th e ler ,, • rows sely clothed the thr one .; ;atives which dispe nse d •, trey even to the pa rt • ch upon, but protectid aroue s desired in thi s case foe r. st of the same kind ad se with which every sty e ee t ho e bleseed. What go o d lir 1111 rod to produce in the e . s under the sarne oao 0.11 1 nest of the people enjoys , minds the m ost an d onl It would also dear s r , BA: bets of that House from One rds they m e t w i t h were Or sitary, than of Military s , ' at:id y thing applicable to the net utmost jealousy, aid h ary to do so. Were eky .theY assassin--to the bl ow ei iist t nt . rhawlet..