Star. — London, England, 1810-02-23 00:00:00

PARLMMEIVTART PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 22. The Royal Assent was given by Commission to Weßasle& Divorce Bill and a Naturalization Bill.—The Commissioners were, the Loan Cunr,Car.kuit, Earl 841:Au5.! , ..r, and Lord Wtt.snthuAM. - The Qualification Indemnity 1341, the rthess at Wales's Lease Bill, the £1,500,000 and £10,500000 glablIVIN Bills Bills pass ed through COraviaittee r eaiiere lepeieei The Earl of LIVERPOOL laid on the table Lord Chatham's Naristive, which was ordered to be printed. CATHOLICS OF ENGLAND. Earl GREY presented two. Petitions from the Ro man Catholics of England—the first stating the hard sliips arising from the disabilities under which they laboured, and respectfully praying to be relieved from them ; and the second expressing their willingness to eoesent to any arrangement that might be deemed necessary for the security of the existing Establish ments, which might not be inconsistent with their own religious 'opinions. • The Petitions having been read, His Lordship said he should merely now move that they be laid on the table, and should not prpbably make any motion relative to them this Session. He j could not, however, omit the opportunity of making a few observations upon the subject to which these Petitions related, and which, in whatever point of , eriew considered, was one of the greatest importance. At the present momentous crisis, it was surely of the utmost consequence to unite all his Majesty's subjects hiartily and cordially in the defence of the country. Yet, as the Petitions stated, in the most respectful terms, the Catholics of England were placed under the most degrading • disabilities, and were not even ermitted to attain those situations in which they could render themselves useful to the cause of their country ; and this notwithstanding they were a most loyal and respectable body, at all times eager and ready to join their fellow-subjects in promoting and defending the common interests of the State, and who fulfilled all their duties in society with exemplary propriety. They were indeed placed in a worse situ ation than the Catholics in other parts of his Ma jesty's dominions. In Canada, his Majesty's Catho iic subjects were allowed all the benefits of the most enlarged toleration, or in other words, were eligible to all offices in common with their fellow-subjects. In -Ireland, Catholics were allowed to act as Magistrates under Commissions of the Peace—to become Mem bers of Lay Corporations, except Trinity College, at which, however, they might take degrees, and to vote at elections for Members of Parliament; all the ranks of the Army were also open to them except that of a General on the Staff. In England, Catho lies could not act as Magistrates—could not be in cluded in a Commission of the Peace—could not become Members of any Corporation—and were debarred from taking degrees. at either of the Universities ; the ranks of the Army and Navy were closed against them, and even if giving up the rank to which they were born and becoming pri vates in any military force, they were dependent upon j the will of others, not merely as to whether they should be allowed to exercise their own religion, but i whether they should not be compelled to attend a reli gious service, different from their own. It was surely utterly inconsistent with a liberal and enlightened po- i licy that such degrading disabilities should be conti need. The Catholics had uniformly displayed their loyalty, and their zeal, whenever they had had op portunities of being employed in the service of their Country, and were in other respects a most respecta ble body. In the county to which he belonged there i were several persons of that persuasion cif ancient and respectable families, who, as friends and neighbours, as parents of families, and in all the relations of so ciety, conducted themselves with the greatest pro priety, and this he believed to be the general charac- , ter of that body. He could not, therefore, but hope, on all these grounds, that a long period would not elapse before the disabilities under which this body of men at present laboured, would be done away, and that they would not be much longer prevented from attaining those situations in which they might serve the cause of their country in common with their fellow-subjects. He was the more induced to enter tain this hope, having been authorised to state, that the Catholics of England were willing to consent that, in granting them those privileges which they asked, such means as might be thought adviseable should be adopted for the securityof the existing estab lishments, and that were not contrary to their religi ous opinions and feelings. He had stated, that he did not intend to make any motion upon this subject du ring the present Session, and he did so with a view to all the circumstances of the case of the Catholics in another part of his Majesty's dominions. He trusted that, with reference to this part of the case, the letter of his Noble Friend, (Lord Grenville) would have' the wished-for effect. He begged leave decidedly to declare, that to every reason, to every sentiment, and every word of that letter, he most entirely sub scribed, and ,he hoped that so temperate and well .reasoned an appeal, would lead to those consequences and to that disposition which were so much to be de sired. He wished it to be understood, that he could support the object desired to be attained by the Ca tholics, upon no other ground than that every secu rity should be given to the existing establishments, consistently with liberality and justice, and with the religiutis opinions and feelings of that respectable The second Petition, which was signed by • ;lute out of four of the A postolic Vicars General, and by most of the Catholic Peers, went to this object ; it xv.is worded in a general way, and he thought it Was better that it should be so. He had little doubt .that the object so much to be desired, would be in the end attained, and that a disposition would be brought about under the influence of which those points which were necessary to its attainment, would o:, both sides be conceded. His Lordship concluded by moving, that the Petitions do lie on the table.— Ordered. HIS NIAJESTY'S MESSAGE.-.-POItTUGA L. The Order of the Day for taking his Majesty's Message into consideration having been moved, and the Message having been read, The Marquis WELLESLEY in callin their Lordships' attention to the subject of his M ajesty's Message, it having been intimated by his Noble • Friend, .hat it was intended to enter into the discus sion of the general policy of our conduct with respect to Portugal, thought it necessary to state the reasons had influenced the policy adoptikil by his Iva- jesty's Government, with Portogal, now merged in • holrelTert t rat state the which Bad been entettd the papers gn the table transactions,. by which ' was menaced, an ar rant, der which an anny.Orl?o,6o6 mined by this country though; expedient with ,tion of Portugal, to with the Government. an additional force of 10,000 men tained there by this Government, the expence of which was estimated as follows : for 20,000 men, £600,000 ; for the additional 10,000 rnen,€2so,ooo; and £130,000 for Officers whom it was thought ex pedient to employ for the purpose of more effectually disciplining and training the Portuguese troops. It was necessary tobe understWd, that no specific treaty had been concluded, but that the arrangement which had been entered into, left it to the discretion of his Majesty's Government to act according to circum stances. This was thought the most expedient mode, as from the distance orthe Portuguese Government, if a specific treaty had been concluded, stipulations might have been made, which from the continually varying circumstances of the situation of Portugal, it might have been impossible to execute, and which, therefore, would have been most inconvenient from their restriction, whilst by entering into an arrange ment under which there was a discretionary power, advantage might be taken of every favourable cir cumstance, and his Majesty's Government were en abled to act in that way which the course of events might render most adviseable. He was at a loss to conceive what objection there could be to the policy of the measures thus adopted with reference to Por tugal, and had he not heard a friendly voice talk of entering into a discussion upon the subject, he should have imagined there could have been no op position to the course pointed out in his Majesty's Message. Was it to be contended. that any circum stances had happened which were on a sudden to change that course of policy which for so long a pe riod we had pursued towards our most ancient and . faithful ally, Portugal. A course of policy which had been uniformly adopted, and to the expediency of which ample testimony was borne by two persons, one of them of considerable ability, now no mere, and the other, perhaps, not far inferior in ability, he meant Mr. Secretary Fox and Mr. Secretary Wind ham, in the measures adopted in 1806, when Portu gal was menaced with a French invasion, and in the language used by the former in the declaration issued upon that subject. A force was then sent to Portu gal, for the purpose, in the first place, of supporting that country in its resistance against the threatened invasion of the French ; if that was found impracti cable, to take care of th e interests of the Portuguese colonies, and to remove the Government thither; — and lastly, in the case of there being no hope of resis tance to the French, to secure the fleet. Bonaparte was at that time unable to accomplish his purpose, and it was thought advisable, that the force which had been sent should return without making any de monstration, in order that the attention of France might not be particularly attracted towards Portugal. The line of policy with reference to Portugal hav ing been thus uniformly marked out and supported, he was at a loss to imagine what,the objection could now be. He achpitted that the case of Portugal was now merged in that of Spain : but was it to be con tended that the cause of the peninsula was now to be abandoned as hopeless ? That would, indeed, not only prepare the way for the usurper, but strew flowers in his path. Much • as he deplored the cir cumstances which had lately occurred in Spain, still he could not consent to give up the cause as hopeless. Much might yet be done by the people of Spain.— Their misfortunes were not to be attributed to them selves, but to the vilg Government by which they were oppressed. Whatever use might be made of the expression, he would assert, that the first breach by which the French entered Spain was to be attri buted to the wretched Government of that country, by which the efforts of the people were paralyzed, and they were left almost without the means of de fence. Was it now to be contended, that after the treasure we had expended, and the blood we had shed, in the support of Spain against the most base and up principled attempt to deprive the Spanish nation of their independence ?—Was it now to be contended, that after all this we, were ta abandon this gallant people, and leave them, without support or assis tance, a prey to their merciless enemy ? And yet, unless this was to be contended, he could not see on what ground the proposition in his Majesty's Mes sage was to be resisted. He had never heard it de nied by any one, that a position ought to be taken in ,Portugal, for the purpose of supporting that country, if possible, against France. It could not, of course, be supposed, that a British army alone, could main tain Portugal against France, but that every effort ought to be made to animate the people, and i put them in a condition the best calculated to resist the enemy. Unless, therefore, it was now to be conten ded, that we were to give up the peninsula to the enemy, to surrender it to him without making the slightest effort at resistance, and to abandon, at once, as hopeless, the cause, in the support of which we had so nobly struggled, he could not discover on what ground, a concurrence in the object of his Majesty's Message, was this night to be resisted. His Lord ship concluded, by moving an Address of concur rence to his Mlijesty. Lord GRENVILLE was aware how irksome a task, and how painful a duty it was to call back to their Lordships' recollection, predictions neglected and scorned, at the time they were made, but since too fatally -verified ; but irksome as the task was, he felt it to be his duty to make an appeal to their Lordships, when a proposition was made to them to sacrifice, in addition to the money already wasted, a million more, for this was the amount el the expence they were called upon to'sanction although his No ble Friend had prudently abstained from mentioning the total amount, and when, still more, they were called upon, in addition to the blood of our gallant defenders, which had been already shed, to send an other army to aid a hopeless cause ; to send assist ance where assistance could be of no use, to defend that which was in itself defenceless. It was surely time for their Lordships to pause when they corm.; dered the burdens already imposed. upon the people ; who they moldered the number of the brave de-. _ object Were - such an individual to be found, he should know how to appreciate the talents and the capacity of the person who could make such an assertion. He re gretted to hear his Noble Friend resort to a mode of argument which some persons had practised, not of considering whether any act was right or wrong in itself, but of referring to the acts of some individual, and then entering into a comparison between them and a line of conduct adopted by others. He re- - grettcd that his Noble Friend, almost in his first display in his official character, should have de scended to such a mode of argument. It was singu lar, however, that one of his Majesty's Ministers should now panegyribe that very part of the conduct of the late Administration towards Portugal in 1806, which had until now been the subject of every species of obloquy and censure on the part of his Majesty's present Ministers ; and the late Administration might now indeed congratulate themselves, that the wisdom and expediency of their conduct had thus tardily been discovered and acknowledged by their successors.— The Noble Marquis had, too, dragged this forward in support of a policy with which it could have no connection, the circumstances being totally different. The policy that had been thought most advisable to adopt towards Portugal, and that which the late Administration had pursued, was that of a mag nanimity which should delay as long at possible involv ing that country in contest with France, which should delay as long as possible that fate which appeared ul timately to await her. He did not mean to dispute the policy of keeping as long as possible a strong e O. sition in -Portugal ; but in what view of this policy could Ministers have acted in the conduct which they had adopted in the Peninsula ? By the shameful Con vention of Cintra, by the events which arose out of the unparalleled circnmstances of throe Commanders in Chief arriving from different parts of the Globe to succeed each other in the course of 24 hours ; a French force was sent out-of Portugal only, to reach Spain time enough to meet our army and to pursue it to the very shores of the ocean • where the fatal victory of Corunna was gained, for fatal he must always call it,' since it ended in the death of the gallant Officer who commanded the British army, which, contrary to his ddvice, was sent to the North, instead of the South. As if determined to set at nought all expe rience, a similar system was again pursued by his Majesty's Ministers, and by the same misconduct on their part, another British army was sacrificed. The same criminal misconduct pervaded all their acts. They talked of defending Portugal and organizing a Portuguese force, and how did they de it s• They had appointed a person to the situation of British Mini ster in Portugal, of Whom he did not wish to say any thing harsh : their Lordships would judge of the pro. priety bf continuing such a person there at such a moment, and of the misconduct of Ministers, when he referred to the documents on the table. The first was a dispatch from Mr. Secretary Canning, dated the 22d of November, 1808, desiring to have infor mation from the British Minister in Portugal, re specting the state of the Portuguese force. Their Lordships would naturally suppose, that, at such a moment, this was a matter of urgency, and that the information would be transmitted with all possible dispatch. How would they be surprised to learn that on the 28th of February, 1809, the date of the next dispatch, Mr. Secretary Canning states, he has no in formation respecting the state or condition of the Por tuguese force. But how much more would they be surprised to learn that the date of the next dispatch upon this important and urgent subject, was the 16th of December; still more, that the Noble Marquis, upon succeeding to the oreign department, was, on the sth of February last, forced to apply for informa-' tion upon this very subject. It was surely impossible for their Lordships to consent to again placing the blood and treasure of the country at the disposal of Ministers, who had shewn such glaring instances of misconduct—of Ministers, who, if they consulted Mi litary Officers about an Expedition, and the opinions of those Officers were decidedly, that it was impolitic and unwise to undertake it—or that it was impossible to execute it, would no longer listen to them, nor again consult them;—who, if they consulted Naval Officers about an enterprize, and those Naval Offi cers assured them it was impracticable, would only tell them in return, Go and try, and see what you can do." The Noble Marquis had truly spoken of the blood and treasure of the country, which had been sicrificed in this hopeless cause in the Penin sula ; and now they were called upon for further sacrifices, and still without the least hope of suc cess. The Noble'Secretary of State had also attributed all the evils that had occurred to the wretched Go vernment of that country. And what had been the conduct of Ministers ? The very Government in Portugal, that was equally hostile to this country, and oppressive to the people whom it ruled, was to be supported by us ; and whilst a part of our army was marched into Spain, another part was left to compel the people to submit to this. very Government which they detested, and under whose auspices no ex ertion on the part of the nation, no patriotic move ment, could by any possibility be expected, ade quate to the crisis in which they were' placed. The Noble Marquis had said, that those who opposed the operation contemplated in the Message, must be pre pared to abandon the Peninsula to the enemy. He (Lord Grenville) did not mean to go the length of asserting, that such ought to be the conduct of go vernment. Such a declaration would be premature,,and was not called for. He would readily allow, that the levies of the population of the Peninsula might dread fully harass the enemy, and might in a course of years ultimately expel their base and cruel invader. But what could be greater folly than relying upon their levies as a regular army, and stationing them in eituations where tube placed in line with the British troops and opposed to the French army ? It was this absurd reliance upon an imaginary army that formed no small part of the misconduct of Ministers. Mi• sacrificed twelve thousand Men, to be called upon to sane twelve thousand more, deeply :hew the misconduct of resources of the country tha n dispute, that in March last Ad not be found fur the pnr. therein contemplation, and this militia and raising the peasantr 7 the ranks of the troops of th e notwithstanding this —notwithstand. army of Sir John Moore, of , and of Lord Chatham' s zany—they were now to be called upon for the sun. fice of another army, with the same contempt of all experience, with the same wasteful disregard of th e resources of the country, and with the same hopele ss . niss of success that had characterized rill the expedi. tions and enterprizes of his Majesty's Ministers. They were surely then at least called upon to inquire, be. fore they.sanctioned this new enterprize, if they could at all consent to place again in the hands of Ministers the disposal of any part of those resources which they had so uselessly sacrificed. His Lordship concluded by moving an Amendment, to leave nut all the worth of the Address, after the word That," and to in. --Neds intimating, after thanking his Majesty for - •znn, that the House would proceed them, et I, ytototheze objectine tmheeadtiocounemdeniatshiLefi'‘oriadi w wi ith tho a ut v d ie e w la Message. The Earl of LIVERPOOL thought, that with the opinionsexpressed by the Noble Lord, the more simple and direct course would have been to have moved at once for an Address to his Majesty, praying that he would dismiss his Ministers. The Noble Lord, it is true, bad not actually declared that the Peninsula ought to be abandoned to the enemy ; but die send. menu he had uttered tended directly to that poi • nt; and what else could be the meaning of that which he made to those who were 'bearing the bur dens necessarily imposed for the wants of the coun try, and to the relatives of those who had been killed in the actions which had taken place. 'The Noble Lord contended, that the Tagus was the most eligi. ble place that could be selected for the first landing of our force, with a view to effect the end desired, and to promote the interest of our allies. The enemy was by our force driven from Portugal in three weeks and a country set free, from which we had reason to calculate upon receiving material aid for the commie object. If disappointed in these calculations, that disappointment was not the fault of the British Co- vernment or the British Army. But the fact was, that we had not any material or lasting disappoint. MA to deplore in Portugal i • for the spirit of the pea ple of that country was proceeding rapidly in the dis ' play of its power and zeal. - A strong force, witless than 16,000 men, was collecting, and disciplining under the direction of General Beresford, and as to the services derived from Mr.Nilliers, he was enabled to state, that that, Gentleman was found to be ex. tremely faithful, zealous, and active in the service cl his country. He knew nothing personally of that Gentleman, certainly not so much as the Noble Ba. ron who had alluded to him ; but he could bear the most satisfactory testimony to the performance of his duty. With regard to the -question immediately us. der the consideration of the House, The Noble Lord thought there was no other alternative than to abut don Portugal altogether, or to agree to the Address, and thus enable his Majesty to maintain a force fa its defence. That suchba force would tend to liberate the Peninsula, he was not prepared to say (A cry if /fear, Hear.) But although it could not accomplish that desirable object—would Noble Lords, would those particularly who, not long since, professed to sympathize in the feelings and wishes of the people of Portugal, recommend that they should be deserted by this country, upon whose gratitude they had such strong claims, while even a chance remained of ten. dering them any service—while it was even possible to afford them protection ? As to the assertion that nothing had resulted to this country from its interpo sition In the affairs of the Peninsula, but disaster and expence, he would ask, whether we had gained no thing in point of character ? Was it nothing to re fute the calumnies propagated throughout Europe and the world, by the insidious industry of the com mon enemy, by the irrefragable testimonies of valour, fidelity, and zeal for the cause of our allies, which marked our conduct from the moment that interposi tion took place ? The Earl of MOIRA said, that if the question be. tween the adoption of the Address and the Amend• went, were such as the Noble Secretary of State had assumed—if no other alternative was left than the abandonment of Portugal, or the rejection of the Amendment, he had no hesitation in stating, that be would be among the first to reject it. But the nature of the amendment was quite misunderstood by the Noble Secretary. It appeared to him to call merely for inquiry, and the arrangement of a different system of policy for the conduct of the war. If that system had corresponded with his views, he should have con tinned to maintain the sentiments which he had on a former occasion expressed upon the subject of Spain. Every moment's reflection, indeed, satisfied him with the justiceof these sentiments—But yet the Noble was not entitled to call on him for support, because the conduct of his Government did not correspond with those sentiments. The propriety of interferers in the concerns of Spain, and the manner of directil that interference, were quite distinct questions; 2 114 sorry he was to find, that much as he approved of dr former, he saw nothing but what he must cosies • the latter. Instead of encouraging and promotil the cause of Spain, that cause seemed, under the at rection of Ministers, but a secondary object. lusod of taking such a position in Spain as might afford,noe sol only to the people of that country, but any of the' jects of the enemy interested in the same causer strong rallying point, our army was sent to an extre point, Where, in fact, it had scarcely to calculate upoi cause meeting any formidable enemy. Was this th e . tt , wisdom and valour ? What, he woul d p at their Lordships, should we say of a Russian Gene who,''being ordered to invade England , m ade a Ch er ei ing, and attempted even to establish himself in hire, instead of approaching the centre o f the cook .t ,instead of venturing to the vicinity of the caplif would the Russian Cabinet be likely to thin itudran officer ? Yet the course which, under so 0 lightened 'Cabinet, the Commander of our Al Inv to, in the Peninsula, was precisely of a simi lar nature _ He entered Portugal when he oug ht to have Lan do - a ... dinommeg•-- . l o d e s al this country who had iet 2lreAsireeti . *iliac- sisters had duts sacrifice , with reference to the o alliffenot led in thai'of Spain. airsicoa, a, before they sanctigned a I ixpendtture of; and now the House was to 1 therMiii* of the ananin4Ot million& one tenth of-lh. amt Mitt. the Income Tag, lion them in sacrificing r end irito, and•which apitireS*.tinvegt u pon the PeciP.l4biforVi th eY sanctioned the N l4lothing could more deeply table. t; lit . the early part 0f1,40, d isk of another army w tat an adequate object. It Ministers in wasting the r e s , rich the independence of Portugal i was this feeling for the - country .that animated his the fact which was end I poses - of - di eroditimrthen . rrangement was entered into, un: I breast, and urged hitn W make this ailipesl to their 16,090 effective me could Of- 4 20,000 inen . vrere to be main- Lordships. 'For what were they. ciAeil upon to try inslbrtugaL It had since been make this additional sacrifice ? He did not believe after breaking up tb.! militi with reltmence to the present situa- there was any man—he did not believe there existed of the country to fill up the o enter. into a new arrangement the individual who would say, that if the whole Bri- line. And yet, notwithsta ent of that country, under which tish arlpy in the .Peninsula. were now sacrificed its ing the sacrifice of the. aru .! of 10,000 Men was to be main- could prevent the object of Franee being attajned.— Lord WellingtOn's army, .. i • NT 7' _ __- -...1. ...., ;,,Avitittal robe found. he should know ar m y—they ' were now to b I