Star. — London, England, 1821-07-02 00:00:00

~ %'b '; . • P. % . .• . 1 a•II 'a a p 'h. . _ • ( ... ... , PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS HOUSE. OF COMMONS, JUNE W. The Acetone Acid and Draining Bill vras read a third time, and passed. The slop Exportation Bill was read a third time, and passed. The Exchequer Bills' Public Works Bill went through a Com mittee.—Report on Monday. The Isle of Man Trade Bill, the Stock Cancelling Bill, and the Irish Silk Bounties Bill, were read a third time, and passed. GRANT To THE DUKE OT RRNCE.—THE QUEEN AND THR GoitoNATIoN. TbeCHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERmoved that the Report of the Duke of Clarence's Annuity Bill be now received. Sir RONALD FERGUSON rose and said, he would give his decided negative to that part of the Bill which granted 'to the Royal Duke £lB,OOO ar rears. It was contrary to every principle of pro priety, as it affected Parliament, and of justice to wards the People, and he would oppose such a vote to the last with determined hostility. He then said, " while upon my legs, I wish to ask the Noble Lord in the blue riband (Londonderry), as a day is fixed for the Coronation, whether it is intended that her Majesty shall be crowned or not ?" The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—".I can only inform the Hon. Member , that her Majesty has claimed a right of being crowned, and has made application to that effect. As to my own opinion, it always was, that the Queen Consort has no such right, and that it is not the privilege of her station, but as a matter of favour, emanating from the regal discretion of the Crown, and certainly, in that point of view, the advice of Ministers would not be that her Majesty should participate in the Ceremony." Sir R. FERGUSON" I ask the Noble Lord when that application of right was made?" The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—" A few days ago." Sir It: FERGUSON" Can the Noble Lord in form me whether her Majesty's Counsel, or the Legal Advisers of the Crown have been consulted on the occasion ?" The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—" I do not apprehend that I sit here to answer every question which any Hon. Member pleases to put to me."— ( Hear, hear, on the Ministerial Benches). Mr. DENMAN—" I apprehend the Noble Lord sits here as a Member of Parliament, though else where be may be a Privy Councillor, and, in my opinion, he is bound to give an answer touching matters of State, at least those affecting the regal power like the present one. I can, however, inform the Honourable Member who has put the question, and the House, that to the application from her Ma jesty on Monday, the only answer received was, that the Law Officers of the Crown, would be consulted ; but I always regarded the omission of the Queen's name in the Liturgy as the virtual declaration of Mi nisters, that her-Majesty was not to be crowned, and I am surprised that the same persons who advised that measure, should now feel it necessary to con sult any further on the subject—(Hear, hear)—in stead of having a decided opinion, on which they sought to he prepared to act. The answer proves, that there i • a degree of hesitation in coming to a de cision, and whether that hesitation arises from doubts entertained by the Law Officers or Ministers them selves, it establishes in itself a claim on the part of her Majesty to be heard before the Privy Council, by the asserters of her legal rights. It is very strange, that from Monday to Saturday no definite answer has been returned. What can occasion this hesita tion now, if, when Ministers advised that she Queen's name should be left out of the Liturgy, they were convinced of the just grounds and propriety of taking . a step which might have the effect of excluding her from the Coronation ? This delay, however, I re peat, is a sufficient cause why there should be no de cision until her Majesty shall have been allowed an opportunity of supporting her claim before that tri bunal before which she prays to be heard—a tribu nal which, however, she cannot approach with the same confidence as she would have done had it not prejudged her case on a former occasion"—(Hear). The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—" I am sur prised that the Honourable and Learned Gentleman should assume that I had ever given any opinion as to the claim of right, when I distinctly stated, that I gave no opinion as to the legal claim ; I stated aho, that as an application had been made advancing a legal right, that claim should undergo a legal in vestigation; but I repeat, that I gave no opinion as to the result ; what I did say was, that I understood the privilege claimed to be a matter of discretion, inherent in the Crown, and as a matter of regal dis cretion the Crown could not be advised that her Ma jesty should participate ; and now, allow me to say, it appears very singular that the egal Advisers of her Majesty should not have presented this claim sooner; the point had been mooted in Parliament two months ago, when I stated what I have just ex plained, as to the advice respecting the refusal of the claim as a matter of discretion. Did her Majesty's Legal Advisers then know how to act ? or why hare they stood still and declined advancing this claim until the very eve of the Coronation ?—(Hear, hear) —at which moment they start a claim of right which they never mentioned before? Was it because they saw a disposition manifested on the other side of the House to complain of the Coronation, and to treat with disrespect everything belonging to it, that they now set up this right for the first time ?—(Flea.-.)— e If they knew of this legal right, why not urge it be fore? or was it only a pretext for bringing the Coro nation into hatred and contempt ?"—(Hear, hear.) • Mr. DENMAN—" So far am I from feeling any reproach from what has fallen from the Noble Lord, that it appears to me her Majesty's Legal Advisers would have acted improperly had they brought the . claim forward until, from all appearances, it was quite certain that the Coronation was to take place; I allow the delay has been considerable, but was not the Coronation talked of last year, an yet did not occur? Preparations were then making, which it was doubtful whether they were to serve for the ho nour of the King or the degradation of his Royal Wife—(Hear, hear). Such preparations, therefore, gave no assurance that the Coronation was ever to take place. The Noble Lord may differ from me, but I feel that we were not bound to advise this step until her Majesty was satisfied that the Coronation would take place at no distant period; but I do con ceive that we have some right to complain of this ticht) ou the part of the Noble Lord ai.d his col- learn, in not having given a definite answer to her Majesty:: application, as their minds ought to have been made up before now, and -therecore the charge of unnecessary delay was upon them, and not on her Majesty's Legal Advisers. They should have been able to have given an opinion at once, as to what part her Majesty was to act, and it ought not to be now a matter of deliberation whether she was to par ticipate or not in tlrat ceremony, according to the right which she derived from the custom of the coun try, and which had been recognised by Act of Par liament. The ceremony is of itself a pageant, but the ancient custom of the country-rnade it s.ilemn, and granted to the Queen Consort a participation in the rites belonging to the accession to the Throne ; I, cannot therefore see why Ministers should not have been prepared with a speedy and decisive answer as soon as the claim was made, and I contend that the delay itself is proof enough that her Majesty's Legal Defenders ought to be heard before the. Council, pre vious to any decision now taking place, which might have the e ff ect of excluding her." _ • The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—" An an swer was given long ago to the claim as a matter of ! discretion. It was not then brought forward in a legal shape,' but now a claim of right has been set up, it must go through the ordinary course of legal investigation—(Blear, hear). I cannot avoid ob serving, that while the Hon. and Learned Gentleman insists so much upon facility in giving answers in i the Ministers of the Crown, 1 see nothing of that faci lity in his own conduct, nor can I tell why his vigi lance has slept so long, as to allow an interval of , many days between the official notification of the Coronation, and the setting up of this claim of right. Other applications had been of a different nature, and there really does appear to me to be something a l mystery, if not intention, in delaying to bring for ward this claim before—(Hear, hear). Mr. SCARLETT.—" The Noble Lord may be very correct in not admitting that he ever gave any opinion on the legal claim, but 1 do not think it quite fair in him to speculate as to the circumstances which may have occasioned that claim not to have been presented before ; I need not remind the House that I I the law's delay is proverbial. And in this case I do' not see why it should be taken in a sense injurious to the Legal Gentlemen employed; when her Majesty chooses to take any step of this nature, she gives di- 1 rections to her Legal Advisers, and they are bound to give their counsel and assistance, but I apprehend they can originate no measure themselves. I under-; stand some case has been laid before the Law Officers' of the Crown, and I wish to ask whether the Queen , has applied to be heard before the Council? I have not attended much to the subject of the legal claim, but I have heard it said that there were only two in-, stances where the privilege was not enjoyed—Dos MEMBER said, only one'3.—l am aware there is in reality but one instance, and it is vulgar error to sup pose that the wife of Henry VII. was not crowned : on account of the peculiar circumstances in which be was placed, that King hastened his own Coronation before the marriage, butf after the marriage, his wife was crowned. In the case of Henrietta-Maria, she was a Catholic ; and the original Proclamation, indeed, stated that she was to be crowned. Before the Coronation, however, a change took place, on account of the difficulties relative to the religious ce remony, as it was dangerous for the responsible Ad visers of the Crown to advise that the ceremony should be performed by Popish Prie.ts, who just at that time were not in good odour. She was, however, present at the ceremonies, though not crowned ; and that she was not,, was occasioned by the Parliament, and not by the will of the King—(Blear, hear).—lf this was the only case, I consider it a matter of grave consi deration, how far it can bear on the present question, and whether the Coronation of the King ought to take place in such a way as to exclude the Queen Consort from a participation in the ceremony, which she claims as a matter of custom and of law"—tflear). The Marquis of LONDONDERRY.—" I look{ upon this as too grave and important a question for discussion in this incidental manner—(Hear, hear). The subject is before the Privy Council, and I can- 1 not give any explanation of the proceedings th e re , without violating my duty as a Privy Councillor ;1 but I hope it will not be supposed, from anything, which I have said, that I declare there is any inten tion' that her Majesty shall not be crowned"—(Hear). Mr. BERNAL then declared, that he would take every opportunity of objecting to the Bill now before the home; nor did he think it improper that an Amendment should be moved to the bringing up this Report, or see why it should not be done, on Satur day. He entered his solemn protest against granting what was called the arrears, and would always give it his temperate but firm and decided opposition. One thing he just called to mind relative to this Bill, which was, that the Honourable Baronet, Member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham), in alluding to the rejection of the grant three years ago, lately stated in the House, that his Royal Highness was at that time willing to accept the grant of 1:6000, and that it was not on his own decision that he refused it. He remembered the Honourable Baronet said that he was prevailed upon, or rather instigated (for he recollected the expression), by some of his friends to refuse that grant. He (Mr. Bernal) had beard no explanation given by the Noble Lord on this subject, at which he could not help ex pressing his surprise ; no man in or out of the House could look at this Bill, and temperately consider all the circumstances relative to it, without objecting to the grant. He could allow a great deal for personal feelings and personal attachment, but he begged of Gentlemen who entertained such predilections, to re collect that it was not very liberal in them to pay off private debts of gratitude with the public money, or to gratify their own feelings at the expense of the' country and their constituents—(Hear).—He had no objection that they should express their attachment,' by an act of liberality on their own part, but not at. the expense of others, by voting away the money out, of the pockets of the people. As to the grant of £6OOO itself, much stress was laid upon the ness with which the House was ready to vote that sum formerly, but the House might have been justi fied in making such a grant some years ago, and yet the circumstances of the country might have so al tered since, as to make it- no longer proper for the House to do so. He begged also to observe, that neither the Noble Lord opposite, nor the Gentlemen around him, were justified in claiming any monopoly of attar,buier.t to the Royal Faimily--(licar, law). He (Mr. Bernal) and his friends entertained for them, as Englishmen, a constitutional reverence, and with that feeling they wished to see them on a proper and dignified throne in the hearts of their subjects (Hear, hear).—NothinKcould so much tend to unseat them in the hearts of - Englishmen, as the constant discussions forced upon Parliament by the injudicious acts of the Noble Lord opposite and h is friends, of 1 which the most improper and injudicious was this grant of £lB,OOO as arrears, in the present distressed state of the country. He really thought that there was a source of Royal bounty, which ought to be I open to the Duke of Clarence, if he was fettered with debts, and it was much more becoming that the li berality of the Crown should supply his wants, than that recourse should be had to this injudicious and unconstitutional mode—( Hear, hear). Mr. R. MARTIN defended the grant, on the ground that the younger branches of thefamily of the late good' old King should have sufficient means to support their rank and dignity among the English Nobility. Mr. WATSON TAYLOR stated, in reference to what hid fallen from an Hon. Member (Mr. Bernal), that his Royal Highness had not declined the grant of £6OOO on account of the suggestion of Ministers, or of any individual connected with office. Ile had, in that instance, acted solely upon the advice and suggestion of private and personal friends, who re presented to him that if he accepted £6OOO a-year, and resided in England, after having stated a neces sity for £lO,OOO, it would appear as if he acknow ledged the lesser sum was sufficient, and had made an over-demand on Parliament when he asked for the greater vote, and they thought it better that he should decline the grant altogether and reside upon the Continent, as it was easier for him to do so, with out that sum, than, with it, to keep up his establish ment in England. He followed their advice, but soon after returned, on account of public and domes tic circumstances, which were too well known to re quire any further explanatitsn. These facts he men tioned for the satisfaction of :he Honourable Member, ithout expressing any opinion on the merits of the question—( Hear, hear). The Marquis o LONDONDERRY said, the Duke of Clarence bad been led to believe that if he took, the smaller sum, and continued to reside in England, he would certainly involve himself in debt, since otherwise it would be impossible for him to keep up the dignity of his situation. He had, therefore, gone abroad ; but circumstances had occurred which tended to embarrass him as much perhaps as if he had remained in this country. The arrears were now only called for in order to place him in the same si tuation in which he would have been if he had ori ginally accepted of the grant, and continued in this country all along. Mr. BERNAL—The Noble Lord has given no ex planation with respect to what fell from the Hon. Member for Carlisle on a former evening. The No ble Lord was present on that occasion. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY did not know to what advice the Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) al.' laded on a former evening. An Hon. MEMBER under the gallery declared that this grant ought to be made as a matter of right and justice to the Duke of Clarence. Colonel DAVIES said he had given his vote for the arrears, but he protested against the grant being considered a claim of right. Though he was anxious! to place the Duke of Clarence in as good a situation as he would have been in if he had accepted the bounty of Parliament originally, he would not allow that he had any " right" to make a claim on Par liament. He thought it rather hard on his Royal Highness that any hasty resolve of his—(Hear, hear) —should be severely visited on him—(Neer, hear)...... But, so far from the grant being a matter of right, be viewed it as a matter of special favour—(Hear, hear).—He wished to rescue the Royal Family hems being placed in the disgraceful situation of being overwhelmed with debt, and therefore he toted the money. His Royal Highness might say—" I gave up the grant before, because I thought I could do without it; but I was mistaken, and I now ask you for the money as a matter of favoar, to enable me to pay debts which I have incurred in consequence." He wished to uphold the credit and character of the Royal Family, and that consideration had influenced his vote. With respect to the Coronation, he would not give one shilling towards it beyond what had al ready been voted. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said the Duke of Clarence had not claimed the grant as a right.— He had specially thanked the House for it as a mat ter of favour. Mr. SCARLETT said this grant was made with= out any Message or recommendation from the Crown. Two Sessions ago, and in the last reign, when an application was made for grants of this kind, the 1-louse received a Royal communication. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said the llon. Gentleman Was not in his place when the communi cation from the Duke of Clarence was made to the House, which contained an intimation that the ap plication had the sanction of his Majesty. In 181-1, the sum of £50,000 had been granted to her Ma jesty, an intimation having been given that the Crown sanctioned the proceeding. Mr. SCARLETT—" - Was there no Message from the Crown in 1814. ?" The Marquis of LONDONDERRY—" There was no Message from the Crown ; but it was intimated that the Royal sanction would be given . in the pro per stage of the Bill." Mr. DENMAN said the Noble Lord's application of this solitary precedent went to the extent of ren dering a Message unnecessary in any case whatever. His Learned Friend had expressed precisely the same doubt which he felt, and which ought to be removed. —He now took this opportunity of saying, in any debates which affected her Majesty, the part he took Was altogether as a Member of Parliament, for in the situation in which *he stood to that Illustrious Person, he knew nothing could be more liable to her disapprobation, than that her Legal Advisers should make themselves par ties to any discussion particu larly affecting her Majesty.—(Hear). lle would new state distinctly what was in progress as to the impor tant subject of her claims, as this was not a nego elation, and therefore did nut require. secrecy— (Hear, hear).—He understood her Majesty had pre seined a Memorial to the King in Council on Mon day, not praying to be heard, because she expressed no doubt on the right, but praying to be cross tied ! Lord flood saw Lord Sidmouth relative to it, an d an answer was promised to be returned on Th um day, but no answer Viai given further than whet hi had stated, and in consequence a Memorial was th at morning presented from her 1 4 1aject), f*TRY. I to he heard by her Counsel before the privy Council. l a this state of the case he wished to abstain from any discussion on the subject, but he could not help say , ing that it was not respectful or courteous to t h e Queen, to allow her Majesty's application to remain so long without an answer, and that two letter; will:II - had been addressed relative to the former sp . .„ e ( R 4 plications were not attended to—VI v .—.se not complain of the Law Officers of the Cro wn 03 account of the delay, but he complained of ;Minis. ters not being able to give an opinion, as he bed a right to assume that they ought to have be es pre. pared with an answer, atter the opinion expressed by the Noble Marquis on the subject two m ont h s before—(llear, hear). The Marquis of LONDONDERRY found it ne. cessary again to repeat that that opinion related to the question as a matter of discretion; but, whe s a grave application was made by a legal claim, ought to undergo grave and legal deliberation, A The lteport was then received, and the Bill GI , dered to be read a third time on Monday. APPROPRIATION BILL. On the House going into a Committee on the Ap propriation Bill, Colonel DAVIES • rose to ask the expense s of the Coronation. Last year £lOO,OOO had been men, b ut arrangements and preparations were now going os to such an extent, that he believed the sum would not cover one-filth of the expense. As he had acted so liberally towards the Duke of Clarence, it could not be suspected that he was ill di posed towaids tin Royal Family. But he looked on the Coronations' an idle pageant, for the vain display of which L:100,003 ought not to be drained from this exhausted country. He understood that the Royal robes alone can £30,000, and the hire cf an extra Crown 1;9000... And what did all this tend to ? Surely it could not make his Majesty more a King than he was at pm. sent. This gaudy ceremony could not impose an obligations on his Majesty towards his people, tha t he did not virtually acknowledge at his accesnanann could any oath make these obligations more binding than his Majesty felt them already to be. In the di ordered state of the finances, it was absurd, as well as improper, to s:ittansier the public money on ma useless pomp. Besides, in the present distressed state of the people, should it be deemed expedient to reject her Majesty's claims, that occasion of rejoicing might become a subject of regret. He now asked the Right lion. Gentleman opposite. what the expenses were? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEItstitt that as there was no vote for those expenses in the present Bill, he was not bound to answer the quota' of the gallant Officer; but as it was usual in a sits. tion of this kind to introduce general topics, he waif not object to give an explanation. The gallant Ofie cer would recollect, that when the £lOO,OOO trs asked for last Session towards this purpose, it suss the same time explained tlutt Parliament was Me depend upon the accuracy of the sum called for, possibly some 3delitional expenses might be intend which could not be previously estimated. They call not be ascertained before the next Session, and des sortie additional expenses were to be provided for, id not considerable ; the arrangements were made ors small a scale of expense as possible, consistatll with the solemn and august nature of the ceremony, but what the additional expense might be, he didna profess himself able at present to ascertain. Sir M. CHOLMELEY was convinced, if a* luntary contribution had been proposed to defray* expenses of this ceremony, a sum more than su cient would have been raised. Mr. SCARLETT could suggest a better methd of raising a sufficient sum. lite price at preset demanded for places to see this splendid proceside was six guineas each. It was calculated 150,01 1 persons would engage seats ; if the proprietors d those places, who alone would be gaining on this cc• casion, would subscribe one guinea Ix each place,* sufficient sum would be rai,ed to defray the expels.% The House having resumed, the Report was brouglx up, and ordered to be received on Monday. On the Oder of the Day for bringine up the Report of tat Metropolis Police Bill, Mr. BERNAL wished to call the attention of the Houtets the necessity of increasing die Salaries of Police Officers, He wished that there should be provisions given also to persai who bad served a certain number of years, or who had bed wounded in the discharge of their duty. Though there watt (nod provided for extra charges, he thought it right that de salaries should be more liberaL He objected to the elan whereby Police Officers were allowed to arrest persons wanks ing about the streets without employment. as the effect of de Pour Relief Bill would be, if passed, to reduce numbers dr sons to that forlorn condition, in which, on the deprivatiald work, they could apply to no parish for relief, and such ponds ought to be protected from the operation of the present BBL Mr. 11. CLIVE stated, that there was a fund for supplyil rewards, P.c. to Police Officers, and their claims were and* to with liberality. Mr. SCARLETT complained of the practice in which tote Gentlemen indulged of making irregular attacks upon timid , ' ciple of his Bill, and which were not consistent with fact. Or trusted he would yet have a fair opportunity of proving tat* lacy of their charges. The Report was then received, and the Bill was onlauld be read a third time on Monday. The Captured Slaves Bill was reported, and ordered tole read a third time on Monday. On the Order of the Day for the further consideration olds Report on the Audit of Accounts Bill, Mr. M BER LEY proposed a clause for laying on the tfO r annually, an Account of the actual Yearly Surplus a Beficicrl in the Revenge compared with the Expenditure. ob The CIIA NCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER ad not feet to the clause. Mr. DEN MA N objected to the clause giving to Comnissl of Account. abroad the power of imposing an cath._,,an a punishing for perjury persons examined before theta; het it a matter of serious consideration whether persons wr, punished for perjury in matters of Account at AL rs`r" cadent was new, he thought it a dangerous on e, and an/ ri be productive of mischievous comequenees. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER add dot certain Officers bad formerly the authority which was given to the Commissaries of Accounts; but it tau 17 in matters of Account, and as such Commissaries were nut do' hishest rank, they were not empowered to call persons to tr y ' amine.' on their own authority, but must have the conun the Governor or euniniander.in.chief of the place for sumo" ing them, and could only examine in the presence of sew sons appointed by the Governor or Commander-in -Chi ef.-- Bill was then ordered to be read a third time on AlouJaY• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave 0 ,; that on Monday next he would propose an Milliliter deign"' remuneration to the Officers of both Houses of Pollutes& Mr. SPRING RICE moved for an Account of Alles:ances. Fees. &c. to certain Mar. in Coma is ircia7 `fur tie last seven yeas s.—O•tlacv; , — five Lbrase tldn naPurgr .. - 51 si