Star. — London, England, 1831-09-30 00:00:00

r, • '~ :{ I i ~ j ~ I 1 , IPIRIT OF THIS DA Y'S JOCIINALS. • CF/RfitiTCLF!.—As the time approaches for the discus sift' of eke Reform Bill in the House of Lords, every des Mistime of influence and intrigue is put in requisition to defeat the measure. We regret to hear the revival of a re. port, that some of the junior branches of the Royal Family, especially the ladies of that illustrious House, are taking an active part in opposition to the wishes of the people, to whose liberality and attachment they ate so much indebted for the splendid position which they enjoy in this country. A more unfounded rumour—we should rather call it a calumny—has been circulated also, respecting the opinions nnd conduct of the Queen on the game subject. We know that the most effectuel refutation wi ll be given to them libels by the votes of the Peers attached to her Majesty 's House hold, on the remind reading of the Bill. Her M ajesty, feel. ingly alive to the delicacies and ditties of her high station, has never given the least pretence for the disloyal suspicions which the enemies of Reform have taken so much pains to excite, with recited to the sincerity of her acquiescence hr the support which the present Ministers have continently received from a gracious Master. We hope the other branches of the Family of all descriptions will reflect in time, and endea vour to imitate so bright and feminine an example. The eyes of the nation are me :the Court, and all belonging to it, and attached to it; and the people will know full well how to attribute and appreciate the influence which the Royal re tc h; mitt exercise In the Impending Mid of strength in the House of Lord.. We make no apology for saying thus much in vindication of our Excellent Queen. HERA T.D.—The support and sanctien e wlekh the Casi olir.Perier system of policy has received In the Chamber of Deputies mieht be considered, as the French and English ministerial joitrnals would make us believe, a strong proof of the stability of the present French admi stration, if the Chamber of Deputies really represetred a sentiments and enjoyed the confidence of the country. ',whoever would aseeetain the feelings awl the opin ions at- , upset any great question of foreign or ecirnestic policy, most not seek Gtr them In the decisions of the majority of a legi sbe. five assembly , elected under a system which rendere it impossible that it should represent the nation. —Tf it he necessary to the prosperity of England, that she should have a House of Commons chosen not to perform the commands of the few, but to express the sentiments and consult for the interests of the many, it is still more neces sary for the welfare of Vrance that her Chamber of Deputies ehould be really elected by the people, whom only, in virtue of a political fiction, they are now supposed to represent. • Under the present limitations of the elective franchise, the number of electors in France—a country having a popula tion of upwards of 31 millions, is considerably fewer than those who are entitled in England—a country possessing eimething better than 20 millions, to return Members to en unreformed House of Commons. Here is the key to the decisions of the Chamber of Deputies in the recent debates on the free -milieu policy of Casimir Peeler.— It is worth observing that some of our journal., which affect not merely a violent, but a furious seal in the cause of re form in our own Parliament, inatise the English Parlia ment, as at present constituted, does not and cannot repre sent the opinions and interests of the whole nation, appeal to the decisions of the Chamber of Deputies In Paris, as con clusive of questions that deeply agitate the feelings of all France. We know that when those very journals sup ported the Duke of ‘rellingeon's Administration as vehe mently as they now support a Whig Administration, and when the Duke's ministry carried their measures in the nn reeormerl House of Commons with sweeping majorities, that v: rr edminietr :don was rapidly sinking in public opinion.and losing the only true source of' the strength of any Govern. menr—the confidence of the country. It is true that the Duke of Wellington was at last beaten by the vote of an un. r-formed Parlinment, but not until the feeling of the coun t-I become an ;drone and toil, r.al against his Atinsiniatta rim that even the omnipotence" of Parliament thought it t.n.afe any longer to resist it. Cassimir Perier is not a bet ter statesman than the Duke of Wellington. He has not tic rrlendid fame which gave even the political ascendancy of the latter, for a time, a charm in the eyes of the nation--his policy has been more feeble, temporising, and dishonest than that of the Duke—yet the latter, supported as he long was hr parliamentary majorities, was overthrown by the force of public opinion. Greater, indeed, must that man be than Casimir Perier, who can long withstand that mighty power. POST.—From the statement of Sir James Graham in the House of Commons on Wednesday evening relative to tl e impossibility of postponing a question of supply be yond Friday evening, though the papers necessary for the propee discussion of that question could not be printed by the time fixed upnn it is fully understood that an imme diate close of the Parliamentary session is anticipated by the Ministry. The Appropriation Act will probably be Introduced forthwith, and thus matters be wound up ready for the prorogation of Parliament immediately upon the defeat of the Reform Bill in the House of Lords, which event the Ministers seem to expect early in the next week. Under present circumstances the prudence of preparing for such an event cannot be questioned. TT M ES.—Every one is ,now ready to shift off from him. self the slightest participation in the Buckingham-Palace expenses. Alas ! there was a time--(when the man who is now gone to his account was to he pleased)—there was a time, we say, when all would have encountered the odium of defending that infamous business to please the wayward, capricious, reckless author of it. We ale charged with . sheltering Lord Ooderich, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in MN. We neither shelter nor expose him; but it does appear to us that he shifted off the responsibility from his own neck, when he appointed a commission, who stood pledged, by the terms of their appointment, to confine the expenses within the esimates. These men are defaulters to she stare ; at d if by any means they escape through a legal quibble. their property ought to be rendered liable, by an; express Act of Parliament. for all above 250,0001. which has been expended up that structure. 230,0001. for that accumulation of hunchbacks,—that mass of architectural warts and bunions at the foot of Constitution.hill ! Oh, Mr. Nish and Mr. splash. you have made a delightful job between you ! Yet 250,0001. is not half what it has cost. Can any one say that the people's House of Parliament does not require some stronger control over the people's money ? But, for the excess above the 230.00111. the members of the commis:4ml, we again sisert, are liable. 1 iil • • • . 4 14 • • II 111 I I I M [TRIAL PARLIAMENT. 1101.7*E OF LORDS, SZPT. 29. The LORD CHANCELLOR took hia seat on the woo/sack at fire o'clock. The Esrl of ROSEBERRY presented a petition from p r , v3 .4, iiagiasafrs, and Town Council of Linlithgow, from the than and Ouildry of the same place, from Queens. ferry, from Kitkßaton, and from a parisli in Edinburgh, pr ling their Lords:tips to pars the Bill as speetitly as pos. CHANCERY LUNATICS. The LORD CHANCELLOR brought in another of his Bills which did not sneered last session of parliament, namely, a bill for taking better care of those unfortunate Lugano persout, who are bubject to the Court of Chancery. -;,:ilassaise object, wasao regulate commissions of Lunacy. The sob* out learnpi..Loottrtoved the* MU ite 4t14/1“ sk i n t i me; Second reifffna to.sowossor. The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from Abingdon, Berkshire, in favour of the Reform Bill. Lord ABERCROMBIE presented a petition from Stir. ling and Kinross to the same effect. EDI NIIITIGH PST IT lON. The LORD CH ANCEI.LO R said be had the honour to present a petition signed by a most numerous body of his Majesty's loyal and dutiful subjects, the inhabitants of the ancient city of Edinburgh, and when he said it was signed by the inhabitants. lie thought he might safely use that ex peessiin. It was signed by 36,150 males capable of bearing m e me. (Hear, hear.) In consequence of the care taken to prevent double signatures, he might say it was signed by oaefourth of the population. According to the rules of eateulathat aeloptei by political and statistical writers, the whole male adult population of the city of Edinburgh, with but lee eacept'ens, had signed this petition. (Hear, hear.) This the noble Lord looked upon as a most remarkable fact in !avast., of the great question of Parliamentary Reform. (Hear) • Twenty or five-and.twenty years ago, it would have been considttred madness to call on the people of the: city of Edinburgh to sign such a petition ; but to him it was matter of no wonderment at all, that after a lapse of twenty yeare, and the exercise of deep reflection by a very think ing, solid, and considerate people, as the ' Scotch were, pin k ing, little liable . to be carried away by sudden impulse to lend themselves as tools to party, should have come to the r e Aut;tos, one and all, of supporting the measures of his 51, jesty's gores:tient to redress their grievances. It was true that ill's great clty, containing 140 or 150,060 persons bad their tepresentatives in parliament, but it was equally true that they had not the privilege .of electing them. They were their reproseenitives, because they represented them sot—tlwy were their inombers, because they did not choose them- -they were the members foe the burgesses of Edin. _ I utgh, is cause the burgesses of Edinburgh no more chose them than did the people of Constantinople—they wen chosen by perhaps the oily persons in the whole city who ' had not signed the present petition. But how many pare sons did their Lordships suppose they were acme Per. adventure a thousand—no—not so much !—by e hundred P Not so much ! Not by a hundred or even half a humbug but by—three and thirty persons—well messing, naelonbt —but no more than Thirty-Three!—(Hear, herarphear.) - But if this should be the case , with-Edinburgh, these were other parts of Scotland. which under this time-honouted sys. tens, which he was in hopes was now about drawing to its final termination—which by this legacy of ohlen time, but which was one of the wont legacies that could have been be queathed to us by throe who lived in the childhood of the human race, and before experience had made it as wise as the present—there were other parts of Scotland, he would repeat, that were in a much worse condition than Edinburgh. ( Hear, hear.) He need not remind their lordships that over the whole of Scotland Mere was no such thing knswn as po. : : t il a r representation. All was close—the !somber, were not elected by the proprietor. of the land. but by persons who probably had not an acre—they wets elected by the holders uf what were called ruperinritics. (Loud cries of hear, hear, bear.) Totem noble personages who were the advo cates of such a system as this would have an opportunity of arguing upon its efficacy, and stating the grounds on which they supported it on Monday and Tuesday next—aye, and a great many more days than Monday and Tuesday—for they were oat sufficient to support by advocacy such a disgraceful and abominable system. On Monday the subject would be entered upon, and he should cone nd that the people of Scotland bud as much right to get rid of their close boroughs as England had to get rid of the Members for Old Sarum and Gatton. Lord W HARNCLIFFE begged to say that in the vote which lie should give on tile second reading of the Reform Rill, he would not refer to the repre.entation of Scotland. Hefelt no hesitation in saying that the stairs of representa tion in Scotland required Reform. (Hear.) If they rejected the .a.sfbem Rill, it was net to be inferred from thence that they objected to amend the representation ; but, bad as the represenuitien of Scotland was, Scotland prospered under it, although it might ba said that it was hi spite of the repre sentative system. The LORD CHANCELLOR did not know why Edin. burgh and the Isle of Bute should be interfered with, If Old Strum and Gatton was left untouched, for the rights of Scotch burghs were as mend as those of the English rotten boroughs. lie repeated that if a Reform was to take place in Scotland, on a similar p rinciple a Reform should take place in the English constituency. Lord WHARNCLIFFE repeated that Scotland was a place where Reform was necessary. He did not say that the e'ective system of England did nos require to be amended...a. (Hear ) The Earl of CAM PERDOWN thought that nothing equld be worse than the Scotch representation. Whatever Scotland gained or lost by the nuke with England, she gained the advantage of the English system of representa tion. He was satisfied that a worse system than the Scotch system of representation could not exist. Lord MELVILLE rose to protest against his noble friend (Lord Wharneliffe) being called upon to express his sen iments on the question of reform before Monday. He thought that they should have the three reform bills berme them, at once. When the Scotch reform bill came before ' them he would be prepared to express his sentiments on it, but he protested against confounding the Scotch bill with the English bilL With respect to the petition in question, he begged to say that the noble and learned lord was in error in his calculation respecting tie population of that city. The Earl of CARNARVON considered the present dis cussion premature. If this petition was for reform in Scot land, it should not be received, for that bill was not before the house. If it was in favour of reform in general, it was a differ/so thing. He protested against the discussion of reform at this period. The petition was then ordered to lie on the table. THE CITY OT LONDON rteertow. The LORD CHANCELLOR then presented a petition to the same effect fawn the corporation of the city of Lon don, observing that this petition came from the Mayor, Al. dermcn, and Common Council, tiding in their corporate capacity. It strongly urged their Lordships to pass the measure of Reform now before them. He took that oppor tunity of saying that he did not ask his Noble Friend (Lord Wbarncliffe) for his opinion respecting Reform, as the liable Viscount (Melville) seemed to think. His Noble Friend volunteered to give hie opinion. It would not satisfy the people of England to give Reform to Scotland, if Old Sarum and Gatton remained untouched. (Hear.) Now, he ad mitted that, notwithstanding the bad system of representation which prevailed throughout the realm, Scotland and England flourished. The perennial delays in the Court of Chancery flourished. (Laughter.) Ireland flourished before Eman cipation was granted, but he would not hesitate to say that the refusal of Reform would be to him, and to every lover of his country, a subject of the deepest re gret. (Hear.) Lord . %V YN FORD would not hesitate to say that he 'ite rated the present system of representation to the amend ment proposed by the measure before the House, which he considered destructive of the Constitution and the liberty of the people, and of the independence of Puliament.—. He would give his support to a mature which appeared to him to be cotsistent with the principles of the constitu tion. The present Bill began with the destruction of Old Serum. His Noble and Learned Friend (the Lord Chan cellor) bad once In contemplation a measure which had not for its object the destruction of any borough.—(Hear.)— He felt convinced that those who thought with him would satisfy the House that the present measure was not -conducive to, but subversive of the best Interests of the coontry.—(llear, hear.) Lead HOLLAND deprecated the allusion meek by the noble and learned lord to the former sentiments of the noble and Lamed lord on the Woolsack. Let noble lords reflect on what would be the consequences throughout the coun. try if they blinded and stupidly rejected a measure on which the country had fixed their minds. Every noble lord who expressed his sentiments on this subject was anxious to appear a Reformer to a certain degree. It was rather singular that, up to the eleventh hour, they never thought of any measure to which they coul d agree, even as yet they had not told the House what system of Reform they approved of; though now it was too late for them to °the any measure of their own to the House. They had the admission of one of the ablest opponents of' this mea sure (Lord Wharneliffe) that the system of .reprecentation in Scotland was so detective that It required reform ; this skewed that he was nut attached to antiquity as to oppose all Reform. (Hear, hear, hear.) lie head what he heard to-night es a happy omen that they had not to contend with Anti-reformers, but with persons who were Reformers in degree. Lord WH AR CLIFFS explained. and the petition was laid on the table. The LORD CHANCELLOR then presented a third petition from the Lord Mayor of London and Livery in Common Hall assembled, praying their Lordships to pin die Reform Bill. The noble and learned lord gave the rea sons why he did not adopt the mesArre alluded to by his no. Ask friend. %Visas bin amble end learned friend seediest Ills , young ambition, and obtained the Great Seal, ha ;Wald say to item, Goo speed ye—l will give you all the assistance I can—you have come to the Great Nat *pen /sly plan of parliamentary reform, and pray make good your Impair& , forms." (Laughter.) The question wouldemne under eon . sideration on Monday ; their lordships would then not forget that the people looked up to them as guardians of their rights and privileges ; and he would only mid, never did that house stand upon a subject of greater importance than they did on that occasion. -- --- Lord IVY N FORD explained. JELGIUX. The Marquis of LON DONDERRI , in the absence of the noble earl at the head of the Government, would not have troubled their Lordships with the question tektite to Belgium and the employment of the French officers at pre sent in that country, ;vete he not deeply impressed with the importance of the subject, and did he not see a Noble Lord opposite (the Secretary for the Colonies) who, being a coadjutor of that Noble Earl, must, necessarily, be ac quainted with the foreign policy at present pursued by the Ministers of the Crown. He should take the liberty of call ing the attention of their Lordships to precedents in former Ministers, where minute quettions the foreign relations of England had been put by the late fir. Tierney and others, and were satisfactorily answered. He trusted a similar course would be pursued on the ,present occasion. With respect to the affairs of Belgium he was informed that no time was fixed for the departure of the %tacit Weeps the residence cf the French officers in Belgium he.consldered as disgusting and insidious. He should like to ask a noble friend of his, who was at the bead of the POtospldw•aslsty at one time, if that army was not in consequence almost considered an English army ? It appeared to him that France was no sooner driven out of one fastness than the wily politician who governed that country crept into another. The Noble Marquis then read a variety of extracts NM the correspondence of the Secretary of State of the period at which the Belgic fortresses were erected, to chew that Holland had a clear right and interest in their t u ntr a ra n don, in order at France might not overrun d. When he read that wornspondenee, he confessed be could not help feeling iodignant as an Englishalaa• It was s . ease of BO much importance that be hoped, for the ho ttest' of the the information would be 'ended, specially as the disposal of the French army ; the best way treating with which, he was of opinion, would be to keep •tbiar - eivilly at errata's length. The mum in which negotiations and conferences took place, with that diplomatist, of whom be (Lord London deny) had spoken pretty strongly, was perfectly dis gusting. Ministers want and consulted him from day to day, and despatches from the King's table were laid before him. Such things, he could assure their Lord were much talked of out of doors, and tended to have an injurious of upon the honour of the country.— Should any of his noble friends behind him at some future period hold the pore feuille at the Foreign Office, he should be extremely glad to see certain papers and copies of confe rences relative to the negotiations carried on between this country and the governments of France and Belgium ; espe cially he should like to see the copy of a private letter ad. dressed some time ago toCasimer Perier,the French minister. which might throw a satisfactory light upon these matters, of which no information whatever had yet been given by his Ma. jesty's Government. lie should conclude by moving that an humble address be presented to his Majesty, praying that there be laid before that house copies or extracts of all correspondence which had recently taken place between the Governments of France and Belgium and this country, relative to the employment of the officers in the French army now in Belgium, for the avowed purpose of discipline and disorganisation. Viscount GOD RID CH complained of the Inconvenience which arose from such questions' being put at the present moment. His Majesty 's present Ministers could not be 'chargeable with the present state of the foreign policy of England. With respect to what the Noble Marquis had said relative to Prince T..ileyrand, to say the least of it, that' language was exceedingly imprudent as applied to the Am bassador of France, or the Minister of any foreign power at peace with England.—( Hear.) A very few words would suffice regarding the immediate point of the Noble Marquis's observation., nothing was more common than to see foreign officers in the armies of other nations ; both Germans and Swim were to be found in the armies of Prussia at the pre. sent moment, and he believed that General Chasse himself was a Frenchman.—(Hear.) The' Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to order; he complained that a Noble Lord was making suggestions to the Noble Viscount who was addressing the House. . The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he would not aft in his place as a Minister of the Crown, and be bothered with the confused ideas of any Noble Par; he should be ready to defend himself against any motion of censure. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY enquired U it were in order for any Noble Lord to prompt another during his address to the House. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, suclta line of con duct was as strictly oat of order as 99 things oat of a hun dred which were donq In their Lordships' House eeety day, and which were suffered from courtesy. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, the noble and learned lord had made use of words in that House which he would not make use of elsewhere. The Duke of RICHMOND moved that the words of the noble marquis be taken down. Lord HOLLAND rose to order. At the suggestion of the LORD CHANCELLOR the motion of the noble duke was withdrawn. The noble and learned lord hid made use of no expressions in that House which he would not again repeat in that House or elaewhere. The Duke of WELLINGTON was of opinion that King Leopold would best maintain an independent government by remaining neutral. With respect to the circumstance of foreign officers serving in the armies of other countries, such a course was not adopted in England ; the officers were looked upon at the soul of the troops, hence no foreign officer had command In the English army ; and a similar regulation ought to be adhered to as regarded Belgium. He denied ,hat the King of Belgium was an independent Sove reign. Could he be called independent with 12,009 foreign I troops quartered in his country ? Could he be called inde pendent when his power was guaranteed to him by other Sovereigns ? The noble duke concluded by observing, that he could not too strongly condemn the principle of the Bel gium ann being officered by Frenchmen. LordHOLLAND defended the character of Prince Talleyrand from the unjust aspersion which had been east upon it, with respect to the question before the house. He) (Lord Holland) saw no reason whatever for this country interfering with the King of Belgium for selecting foreign officers to his army; Portugal had done the same thing; be said nothing of the propriety or impropriety of the matter, all he meant to argue was, that England had no right to in terfere. Unfortunately, the King of Belgium was in anther awkward situation; with preparations for war in Holland, and a disorganised army at home, It was not astonishing that the King of Belgium adopted whatever means were in his power to make his army perfect. Were the principle of interference acted spots in the present instance, theft was no knowing where it would end. After a few words from Lord ORFORD, The LORD CHANCELLOR should object to the pro- duction of the papers if they really did exist; be adopted that line of conduct in consequence of the delicate nature of the question involved in the motion of the Noble Marquis. He (the Lord Chancellor) offered no opinion ale way or another on the propriety or impropriety of the arrangsepents adopted by King Leopold as respected the of of die French army at present in Belgium. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY than withdrew hi& motion, observing that if the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack would in future abstain from any attacks upon him (Lard Londonderry) he should be the last am in their Lordship's Hours to give his Majesty's Dentition unnsees , eery trouble. I The LORD CHANCELLOR, with much apparent good humour, replied, that he should be happy to sign a ' treaty of peace with the Noble Marquis for the remainder of the Session.—(Laughter.) I _ GANZ BILL. On the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND the Game Bill vu read a third time and passed. The other Bills on their Lordships' table were forwarded the respective stages, and the Hpuse adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. DCRILIR ROYAL SOCIETY. Mr. CRAMPTON presented a petition from the Royal Society of Dublin, complaining of the reduction of their par. Momentary grant from 7,0001. to 5,4001. They urged' that they had entered into the various and usual engagements for the year, before they were aware that this reduction eras contemplated ; and bat therefore this reduction, if would be productive of the greatest inconvenience. a ire ecti; on the history and merits of the society, and on its market% sepsratien ftOm any thing like political affairs. There was a charge of the society being %exclusive '•" but be &Wild that such charge was , well founded , and htuply toinitWaJoc ..atuidesal .that..l4toisout..Coballa was Awl muster of the press. • Trout all discussion* political mit. tees had been, and were, excluded. TN, petitiesses that the house would institute inquiries into the t=t against the society, previously to finally sanctioning the re * dual= of this grant. Mr. LEADER observed, that while this grant was re. dueled, the estimates for the British Museum, &e. remained undiminished, and yet this grant was trifling compared with some of them. Mr. LEFROY submitted that the Government ought to have instituted inquiry, before the reduction of the grant wu proposed, and he hoped that it wu not too late for the Government to retrace its steps. Colonel CHAPhIAN thought that the Government had acted wisely In redstabog this grant; it had never realised the expectation folioed. He instanced that the society collected extensive specimens of mineralogy—but they had never yet been Mr. RUTHVEN regretted this reduction wu adopted : It nest tend most seriously to injure the society. Lord INGESTRIE supported the prayer of the petition. 'Do osciaty bed boon mom useful to Leland, and was eaL Wad to is man gotfuL lift R. RATTAN:IN said that the grant could not be sain thood, except by those who were friends to the repeal of din Gam, and maintained that such a paltry reducing os °Who sanctioned by coldadooded economists. Mr. HU3IE was astonished at the course pungens dinusion I the reduction was not recommends‘hpingli binds* semssenists, but by • Committee of that Boon Ina idnitogsly adopted, of which Lord L. Gown was Anima and Mr. Dawson was a member. Inland ha d to this society bOOL or OWL a year; the pmnampt wanted for many years between 1001. and CM. This teduction was not pitiful saving, but wise diminution of public burthens. There was no pound for charge against the present m "isteri. The reduction was the result of the recommendation o 7 a Committee which he had described. He considered that the reduction was perfectly right. Mr. H. ORATTAN said it was miserable for any Society like the one tow mentioned to be thus thrown on the evathy of others. What Society ever flourished with any such syntgathy 1 1 He would have it rely on its own peat principles, and its own resources ; and he doubted not that, in spite of melancholy predictions, the Society would cenththe to Sourish. ___ . . . Colo'nel CONOLLY was desirous that the grant should be continued; it was most important to a country where it was desirable to civilise every part of society. Natural history might be ridiculed, but there was no country in the world where the study of it was so so important as to Ireland. The number of absentees gave the Society a claim on this country. Mr. BUNT thought this reduction was very niggardly; it was unworthy of the Government ; and he was sorry that a most 'ireful institution was to have its grant so nig. gartlly reduced. Mr. M. O'CONNELL observed, that the object of the Parliamentary Committee was to put this Society on a useful footing. Members had opposed a more useful grant—that to Alaynooth ; and yet they supported the reduction of this grant. He knew the fact of persons having been rejected on political grounds ; it had shown influence in the raw of the lion. Member for Kerry. (Hear.) The Government was more than liberal in continuing the amount now given. On the grants to professors for English Universities, the Hon. Member for Preston asked, were the weavers of Preston to contribute to the education of the sons of noblemen; and yet here be was desirous that the weavers should be taxed— he was against the reduction of the grant; this showed by what consistent principles the Hon. Member was actuatW. (Hear.). Mr. HUNT raid he had oppposed that grant. Mr. CRAMPTON said, that the Irish Museum had been visited by 30,000 pertions lase year; and 'that thire was no instance of perannahatring been rejected from the library. Sir R. BATEBON salt he disapproved of the reduction, come from what party it might. Petition ordered to lie on the table. BOARD Or CONTIOUL. • Mr. STUART WORTLEY brought forward his mo. don respecting the reduction of the gaiety of the Presi dent of the Board of Controul. He considered that the reduction had been made hastily. It was recommended by a Committee, but that was not sufficient ; the Go vernment ought first to have ascertained that the recom mendation proceeded on adequate grounds. In the re. port, the Committee hail not condescended to assign any grounds for the recommendation; then why was the re duction urged ? The Committee named in one sentence that it was expedient to reduce the salary—they named the suns—and that sum was proposed by the Government instead of the previous salary. It was true, that the President of the Board of Controul bad not so much to do in that House as some other Members of the Government; but was there no responsibility attached to the office ? and was it nothing to shut out a man from the laudable ol*.m of ambition, and to be stationed', in an office which afforded few oppor tunities for display In that House ? The salary was re duced to what it had formerly been; that was the only reason he could learn for its reduction, and that be had ascertained Brom the Member for Middlesex. But if no better reason could be assigned, he did know why all salaries might not be reduced on as cogent reasons. —(Hear, hear.) The office arose out of the eele. bested India Bill; and sines that period there bad been a vast Joann ofour territories in India, and consequently great addition to the labours of the office. In 1810 the salary was raised from 1,5001. to 5,0001; if there were ground for the advance—thee being accession of territory and of duty—he maintained that there was no ground for reducing the salary at this particular moment. The increase of duty and responsibility continued, but the salary was to be re duced without neighs( for it any motive whatever. He enumerated the incensed duties of the office, owing to the increase of revelation-el labour tesulting from the fanning of the land revenues, &e. and of the increased number of civil servants and natives engaged. Having dwelt on the increase of labour occasioned by the management of the land reve nues and the civil servants, European and native, be spoke of the increase el the army; which also augmented the du. ties of the office. An LOUD'S= number of documents went through the when be was at the Board he had one case that consisted of WM bile pages. The most assiduous attendee was regime se doe pan of the president. He sub mitted that it was an peaky to reduce this office, the pro baMe Abet of whilph be to reduce it In the scale of offices; and was eliet where there was stomach duty, so 'much office was now in an uS t state • Valimey reduced the salary, as was now pro pelled, tbs; wadi run the risk of impairing the efficiescy of the ellso. Beeides, if the salary were reduced, it would be of no afftnetege to the revenues of this country; the say ing veil boast the revenues of India ; but by the saving its bad would impair the efficiency and cha racter of . The reduction was unjust, as being greater than eat extended to the salaries of other Members I of the Goveneisat. He trusted that the House in this in. stance wadi an smedoe the recommendadon of the Com- nittee onYpylik sands& It win unwise. He coodeded with movies a min of resolutions, declaratory that the sa lary in IRO was mimed to 5,4001; that the business of the Bad of Contrive* had greatly increased ; and that it was, therefore, inexpedient to reduce the salary of its President to VON. Mr. GRANT said, he considered details in reply were an , became be west view this question as already settled. ltie Govors...mt. he must meanie, had not blindly adopted the reesenmembion tithe committee; and he must also assume that . biostidemondlation of the committee was' Waded I pterlsos - hospdry. He was not disposed is mopes the isseelokSid ho was the men _pootleslsely mimed la diettommi, Remo whether the sednoden were yin er unwise, the .olioirmiset CUM Enke reimmeidendots In loos than rye Isms. Mims, thereby, wpm &to let the queasiest roe io its plasm ease ow time ssesses, sad frau the married en OM dot time Is the tab* mold set lead to the Whilemt 11 would psoduse say eidersda of the Nome so orsidesipensioes the its.. (gem) Mr. ZUTIIVIN was astsoldisd at the row mods. g surely 1411. a day was mime* sem! lee Its Prealesst of this limed. The reductios woe most Ws O. WAftgitlfDlLlt was of that the salary of ihafiL was toe moth but he &Might k bad now been Musa too law. _ _ Mr. C. FIROUSON said that the Ake ought to be madrworth acceptasce. and so as to prevent its pos sessor front looking to higher °floe for adequate rem. noraties..• (Boar, boar.) He thought, however. that this riiliwoad be MOPS properly brought forward on p!spositisn kr die renewal of the charter. The Ron. Gehtionimaild that the Med of Crouronl could torte be expocsed to et Us Amy to lad* maser h were placed on a footing anconsocsed with *Attica' inhume. ROBINSON said. that if the Hot?' complied with - President in the flommitie, as hi - Mei& thaiirars at too large a wale; end be bepal,befeee any perineum rale was adopted, that these redulloosese would be revised and emeedea Mr. P. COURTNEY said, the radocsisos bed been very talbeimilly mods, sod without prow isaimiption. If it were die opiates of hie Majesty% Olivermasat that these salaries were sollicient, they ought to addeas his Majesty, praying him sot to appoint any one to Alm who .was not hero to ample benditay property. The realms that bad adduced for naloodoo - of the galaxies were to him its. ANN why ihal ought to lane been increased. He would NCthe motion. ALTHORP add, in defame of the Ministry re dacts( Wade', that the measure had been adopted, net so much ham a movictioo that many of the Alain were our uld, se that Aare was necessity for retrenishimen ; and die lemmata of the page was, that unseen wow weeildil, He aelawle.pd that public Aare should be wennitialid, hut he lams, undaped tbSi MO COI would, Mime aims Awthart.waa SIO uhtismitlro wM theisptddlo, maim " ; to b ears 2 1 ; y who ut adhated 4 ' Hit ammo he waist *miss it twee 'brim is Ms. ellarge of dr • Sir ro them sa. übe thought the selary.of the tie Dead was Sit A. SAE fat is had =grebes of the Coundttee, aid *lasi. ammo Olt . MOW that the fa as a ip of of - tbeeriludes Palau* et ski Beek et Cm. 164 say moreighomes wry the east pinciple into the he gimme dlhis, lad totals than at them original gwalltkoklimi wrd mid he memidered t= - De. beam 411.11, and he had i• es. Us sisals to inipery • hr carrying the teemmommloilom of the Committee late Abet. IRVING bad opposed des mogratisas d reketin .Jll. . salary W bias Naked upon intim OS the tame ciple that bed bow sdepeed with ot era. • Mr. NORTH did Set consider that a high Salary gri t necetairy for the failliesent of ogee. He would op ro „ modal. He was well assured that augmented salariwill cot produced augmented attention to dike. Mr. S. WORTLEY replied. Lord ALTHORP moved the previous question. The SPEAKER put the previous question, and it negatived without a division. A message from the Lords announced that their ships had passed the Oame Laws Amendment Bill. Captain GORDON postponed his motion resprc , repression of blisphetny. 1155 K GIIAND JURIES. Mr. STANLEY, in rising to move for leave to 1.1:n 2 i n a bill to amend the Irish grand jury system, said, the atic:. tints of the legislature had been for a considerable Cnle called to the state of the grand juries : several econtwit:cts had been appointed on the subject between 1815 and 11:22 and in the report of the Committee of 1822 it was declatti that there could exist no difference of opinion with reenter to the necessity of putting the grand juries on a more satisfar. tory basis. This report, however, had until now remained unfulfilled. He (Mr. Stanley) did not attach much weight to the argument brought forward against the grand juri,s, of the large augmentation in the internal taxation of Ire land. (now amounting to 700,0001.) as that single fact might indicate, instead of an increase of pressure, (hear.) merely an increase of prosperity, and of the means of the inhabitants. But a simple exposition of the Irish Grand Jury system was sufficient to show how defective it must ne• cessarily be. The English members must not imagine that the Irish Grand Juries bore any resemblance to those of I:n. gland; that they were entrusted merely with the criminal proceedings, but they also regulated and controuled the whol, of the internal taxation of Ireland; that they taxed th. country, though they were not composed of the persons who paid the taxes ; that they determined en the nature of the works to be performed, chose the workmen, and fixed the price at which they were to work, and that they uid all this in secret, without responsibility and within the short period of three or four days. ender such a systen.. how was it possible, however well the jury might he consti. toted, that they could perform their duties justly and bene ficially, or if they did, bow was it possible that the country could believe it ? (Hear.) Taking six counties at hazar,i, he found that the number of presentments and of bills of in. diet:runt equalled 5,969, while the average of days was either three or four, leaving a total average of 244 presentments and indictments to be performed in one slay. Owing to this shortness of time, the administration of one part of a county was left to the individual best acquainted with it, and his decisions were acquiesced in by the portal meeting of the jurors without examination. The leaded proprietors com posing the Grand Juries were frespendy absentees, whose duties were pethmued by agents end persons of a veer inferior description. (Hear, bee; hear.) The burden, Imposed did not fall upon the landlords, who were those who imposed them • but upon the Want. The grand juries of Ireland had, in feet, nest infonnatiso. nor check. Hence a systein of serration expeoliture, of fa. vouritism in the choice of contractors, of in the performance of the works, and in de on the works to be undertaken, the habit of consulting set the public Interest but private advantage. The Bill which he proposed to bring in would repeal and coosolidate no less than 65 dif. ferent acts of Parliament, serving as a kind of manual to the Grand Juror. Its principal features were these : the civil proceedings to be apart from the criminal; the Grad Jury to give notice to the Magistrates of the day on which the spMal sessions are proposed to be Lid; the whole of presentments to be taken into consideration on the first day; the meeting to have the power of adjourning to the different baronies ; the Magistrates to have the power of negativing the works of which they disapprove; the Grand Jury not to pass presentments judged unnecessary by the Special Sessions ; the time in which the Grand Jury performs its duties to be lengthened; the qualification of the grand juror to be the same as at present, but the Sheriff to select as far as possible persons from each Barony ; one or more fur. rigors chosen, and paid by a board of engineses at Dublin, to bc attached to the different counties, and to be removable on complaint of the Grand Jury ; the Grand Jury to hold Its sitting in open court • all works to be entered on contraet, and the lowest ten der to beaccepted; the offices of supervisors and of ovetseers to be done away with, and their powers to be vested in the contractors and sur. veyors ,• the mode of accounting for the performance of works by affidavit to be abolished. He did not propose to make the grand juries elective : he apprehended, that as the money in the hands of the juries was expended in the immediate !telethon/had, the elective system would lead to as many gobs as at pr sea (Hear.) But he proposed that the occupying tenant should have the power of deducting the county ass from the rent be paid his landlord, with the ex ception of the penal presentments, the burden of which he was still to retain. Such was the outlive of his measure. He trusted it might form the groundwork of a general system of improvement in Ireland. (Cheers.) He would now move i for leave to bring in a bill to amend the grand jury system I in Ireland. Mr. WYBE considered the only remedy for the defects of the grand jury system was election. Mr. HUNT said that far the last five and twenty years be bad beard the Irish grand jury laws complained of, and yet the right boo. gentleman talked of its defects as if it were a new discovery that it had any ; and the bill on the table was only calculated to let the abominable system down easy. He should, however, support the bill. Mr. JOHN BROWN thought the grand jury system so defective, that be should be glad to sees mote sweep. log measure intrainend I bat such es the present measure was, I: should ban bis Sir R. werssom 2r h: had never witnessed each abuses as the light bum leenury had mentioned, in any of the grand juries be bad mslaided sddl=b* "Mit" the sysm sapeised impepeamme, bs k was pa. reedy m oos} tilde simshini impassammt, width would be snub beam tbsa dee shimmery reject wbisb was entemehmil by seams at overthrowing the era= sitthely• The rate payees did net eleasst to mem, levhd foe reads sod beids 4 4 a ut tbsy did migkot Iss the high salmi* of the county and the impasse ef the eshambaisty ems. blishment, ought a l e by govertansent,. When the Bill skald be folly nadir the emedieradon die house, he should give le beet oonsideradan, and he hopedevils under it was the ammensmemat at a remedy for many of tbe Oki adisd. Mr. GRATTAN greatly a ____ve lof making the land lords of Ireland pay the rates ivatNued of the occupying te nants. Mr. LEADER said the Gond Jury sytem in Ireland had bees abused to a frightful extent. It was made a source of hereditarypatronage of a Mud Meet burdensome to the essuiry. If there was not scenunty in the Grand Jury nei ther rent or tithes would be peaks bid. Mr. BLACKNEY bad beau a OMNI' Juror of the county he had the beam to remain (Ceelowit sit had witnessed the genet osempties. srldeb was as rooted In the system, that he believed It mild bo wag to reform 001,...t ir1i it. He thole& A their pr 'amid be before the pubik I no hale and noun work. would be dope well laibitionado of band wWiout ty. Ia 'AItALI.T.OVDT said. she ample wA=l op...mina esenosmg sew.gment viand Jury vacua a gross op pernioni, foi whisk the ban remedy wooed be exposing the pehlelalle lie the Owed Jury to the public cm Lewes_ was given to being in the Bill. Mr. MEAL Ira s& up the report of the Committee at iL tigy a_ fer granting 113,0001. far Windsor Castle and House.—Agreed to. Thlic Works (Ireland) Bill was rood a third tine, and passed. TU Chorkka Inquiry BID was read a third time, and pausal. On the motion of Mr. CAMPBELL, the Interpleader Bill was rood a snood time, and ordered to be committed on Tuesday. The other orders of the day were disposed of, and the House adjourned at half pest twelve. Three contested elections at this time sgita . e large masses of the perdition—that between Al derman Key and Aldermen Laurie for the civic chair next year, that between Mr. Ponsonby and' Lord Ashley for the iof Dorset, and that for the county of P embroke, the candidates fur which hart not yet been publicly announced, though it is supposed they will be the same as in the last contest. Mr. Greville was a great fa vourite through the county, and lost the election by a few votes, owing to circumstances which have been fully exposed before the committee of the Moose of Commons. The next great contests will probably be for Dublin and Liverpool.