Star. — London, England, 1810-05-04 00:00:00

PARLMMENTAT PROCBEDINGS. HOUSE C) . ',caws, MAY 3. The Innkeepers Rates Subsistence Bill, and the Trish Road Acts Amendment Bill, pissed through Conunittees, and were reported. The Iri3h Coroners' Bill was read a second time and commit ad for to--sorrow. Mr. favimer, from the Custom Home, presented Returns of Corn and Grain exported from Norfolk for po years, which was ordered to lie on the table. Some local and private Bills were brought up by Mr. Pet.- UAM, Mr. Dicntnson, Colonel Lovhnza, Mr. Limos, Mr. }SYNC', and other Members of the House of Cod - awns, and read a first time. Some Papers relative to the Affairs of the Eist India bout pany were ordered, on the motion of the Earl of Boaqitio:, NAVY. Lord Viscount MELVIL LE gave nctiee of a motion for Tues day se'nnight, relalive to the conveyance of troops in armed ships, a subject to which he had formerly alluded, and relative to which he had moved for Papers ; but his Lorahip expressed bit determination not to wait for the whole of the Papers, as he was informed that some of them could not be presented for a considerable time. The Lords were•ordered tc be summoned for. Tuesday se'n night. THE DUKE OF BRUNSWICK. His Majesty's Message having been read, The Earl of LIVERPOOL said he did not intend to trouble their Lordships at any length ! upon this subject, as he did not suppose there would be any ob jection to an address, drawn up in the form which was customary upon similar occasions. In the present case the near relationship of the Duke of Brunswick to his - Majesty formed a strong claim upon the House. In addition to his participation in those misfortunes ari sing outof the unfortunate state of Europe, which had overwhelmed so many ancient families, and his per sonal kullantry evinced in the efforts he made against the enemy, and in, at length, after every effort was found unavailing, bringing away the wreck of his brave and loyal followers, still farther strengthened kit claim upon the generosity of the country. His Lordship concluded by moving an address of con currence. Lord HOLLAND did not rise for the purpose of opposing the motion, in whicji, on the contrary, he acquiesced ; but he wished to be understood as not pledging himself or the House as to the particular fund upon Which the proposed annuity should be char g ed. Claims of a similar nature had of late years been made upon Parliament, which were formerly charged upon the Civil List. When an addition was proposed to the Civil List, persons were desired to look at the increase of their own private expence, in order to shew the necessity, arising from the same cause, of adding to the Civil List ; and this might so ' far . be just, but within the last few years it had been discovered that there were large additional funds, such for instance as the Droits of Admiralty ; and he could not help remarking, that it would be more ex pedient that this annuity, and others of a similar na • ture, should be charged upon these additional funds, and thus that the claims which arose out of the extra ordinary events of the war, should be defrayed out•of the funds which arose out of the extraordinary events of the war. The Earl of LIVERPOOL observed in explana tion, that the present claim, as well as others, had arisen out of the unfortunate situation of Europe, and, oat of circumstances which could not have been iii contemplation at the time the Civil List was estab; lished, and, therefore, could never have been intended to have been charged upon the Civil List. Lord HOLLAND said, what he had more partie. cnlarly alluded to, was the funds additional to the Civil List, one of which, the Droits of the Admiralty, was not even known to Parliament to he in existence till within a few years past, and he still thought that if would be less invidious to charge this Annuity upon those funds, than upon the country. The Address was agreed to, and ordered to be pre • tented to his Majesty by the Lords with White Staves. Adjourned till to-morrow (this day). HOUSE OF COMMONS, Mr. BRAND gave notice, that on Monday, the 21st instant, be would submit to the House his proposition relative to a Re form In Parliament. . _ _ -.. On the motion of Mr. WHARTON ' it era: ordered that the House should to-morrow resolve itself into a Committee on the 46th of his present Majesty, Chap. 99, respecting Oil of Vitriol. Q/1 the tnotion of Sir 1. SINCLAIR ) it was ordered that there be 141 before the House an account of the Duties charged on Spirits in Scotland and England, according to the 9th Section of the 48:h of the King, Chap. Ise, front the Ist of October 1813 So the Ist of October 1809. Mr. ARBUTHNOT brought up the Report of the Committee of Supply; the resolutions of which (granting various sums to his Majesty for miscellaneous services) were read and agreed to. Mr. LUSHINGTON brought up the Retort of the - fudges' ' Salaries Bill. The report was agreed to, and the Bill was or dered to be read a third time to-morrow. The Bill for Regulating the Scotch Inferior Courts was read a erecond time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. Mr. LUSHINGTON brought up the Report of the . Com mittee on the Compensation to be granted to the Cleiks of Ses sion in Scotland, in consequence of the new arrangement. The Report was agreed to, and a Bill was ordered accordingly. The Scotch Decree Abridgment Bill went through a Commit tee. the Report of which was ordered to be received to-morrow. Ur. CANNING postponed, until next week, his motion for siert* Papers relative to Spain. Mr. R. WARD presented the Transportadmates for 1016. Ordered to lie on tire table. MIDDLESEX PETITION. On the motion of Mr. BARHAM, the House re- sumed the adjourned debate on the motion respecting the Middlesex Petition. The SPEAKER having stated that the question before the House was---4 , that the Petition do lie on, the table, " lir. BARHAM rose.—He said that be had been iusluced yesterday to propose the postponement of the further consideration of this subject, from the persua sion that whatever might be the decision of the House, that decision would have much greater weight in the country if it was the result of mature. delibera tion, a nd because by such a postponement ire House ivoiAd be less liable to the imputation of having adopted any measure in haite, or under the influence of passion. He was convinced that the postpone. ment would, enable every Mern'Qer to vote with treater Satisfaction and confidence. For his own art, h e confessed it was with considerable pain that )ic felt it his duty to oppose the reception of the peti tion-. It was impossible for 'any man to be more so- House to Ilega lisposed that awu. au v. so.. - lkitous than himself that the doors . of the I should be opened wider even than they had be -ale petitions of the peopl.l. There were no al ticins—there were no arguments—there was so any prayer of a .petition which he should be dis to refuie ; but his &It coalmines:l to refuse which was the subject of the present discussion, be cause it was not a petition but a protest; because it' was not an application but a menace. Against the reception of such a document he for one would make a stand. It a'..s evident that those who termed them= elves petitioners were trying how much insult the House would bear. Had they been in earnest in theit ktstensible object, they would have couched their peti• tien in less offensive terms. Were the dignity and pri vileges of the House of Commons the possession merely of the indivicblal Memberi ' they might be abandoned with \ INS di ffi culty ; but they belonged to the people of England, and ought to be maintained. Little did those who promoted such proceedings as that in which the Middlesex Petition originated, per ceive the consequences to which they might lead. These- consequences such individuals were powerful to bring on, but they would find themselves powerless to stop. They would themselves be ultimatelyswept away like chaff before the wind. All wise and experieneed men knew that such attempts could have but one ter mination ' • they knew, that if the Privileges of the House of Commons were abandoned, the Monarchy which these people endeavoured to cajole equally with the • Tie, and which it was the duty of the that he did riot regret having brought the language of that Petition distinctly under 'the consideration of the House, and having prevented a Petition, couched in terms which to him appeared of the most offensive nature, to be laid on their table sub silentio. As it.was his intention . to vote for the reception of the Middle sex Petition, he would explain his motives for doing • so. Then, as before, he was actuated by his anxiety to maintain the dignity of the House of Commons. Of dignity, consistency was no mean part ; atiel as the House had the other day accepted the Petition , from Westminster, he could not see how they could consistently reject the Petit?on from Middlesex. ' In all the forcible arguments which he had lieara . against suffering the Middlesex Petition to be laid on the table (arguments which, did lie not consider the ques tion as decided by the determination of the House with respect to the Westminster Petition, wind,/ be conclusive in his mind), he had not heard nue which would not have applied more forcibly against the re ception of the Westminster Petition. Cases of the `sort before the House ought to be decided on a broad principle. The House ought not to receive one Pe tition, because the offensive language which it con tained might be explained awar . bv aforced construe , pool _ : . . House of Commons to limit and protect, must either ; tion, and to reject another petition because no such be converted into an absolute despotism or destroyed. quibble could be rendered applicable to it. The prac- This truth was no new secret taught by the French • Cce of the House ought to be uniform. It was true revolution. All history shewed that such a termina- that that practice might change from century to cen tiou was in the nature of things. But the French re- wry, it might even change from one twenty years to', volution furnished so recent and meinorable an 'exam. another ; but decency required that it should not ple -of it that no one cJuid blind himself to the change in a week, or because the Chancellor ot the consequences. While he opposed the reception of Exchequer felt a little more political courage on one the Petition he was at the same time anxious to do day than he did on another. He should, therefore, away any misrepresentation of motive to which the vote for the reception of the petition, expressing at House might be liable, by adopting a resolution that the same time his utter detestation and abhorrence of they wire not unwilling to attend to the prayer of the principles which it maintained, and his perfect any petition, but that they could not consent to re- . preparation, should any future petition of a similar cord on their Journals a protest against their own ' nature he presented, which bore a marked and Intel. proceedings. He wished that sonic more able indivi. ligible difference, to vote for its rejection. dual than himself had taken no this subject; but he I Mr. R S. DUNDAS concurred most fully in all , had presumed to address the llonse upon it, because ; the doctrines laid down by the Honourable Gentle," he thought, that in order to strengthen their hands, :man who opened the debate, so far as they were ape 1 they had a right to demand the opinion of all their !plicable to the question. As to the last Honourable' Members. Before he sat down, he would say a few i Member who had spoken, he was not prepared to f01.. 1 words on that which appeared to hire to be the pri- • low him into his ideas of consistency on this occasion. mary cause of the insult which the House had re- 1 That Honourable Member had stated that he would ceived. The Honourable Gentlemen on the Minis- . not have voted for the reception of the Westminster terial benches had been frequently warned of the end ; Petition, nor of this Petition, if the former had not to which the path which they had thought proper to : been received, though he argued that, in eransisttncy, pursue must necessarily lead. They had wholly dis- ; having receiVed the former, the House was bound not regarded the public feeling. They had embraced ` i to reject this. Did th e Honourable Gentleman then every opportunity, even to the present day, of doing i mean to s ay, th a t b ecaus - t h e H ouse was wrong then, that which must naturally excite the public indigna- it should, in consistency, act wrong now ? Cons.' Lion. What could be the reason that a late Member I sistency in error the House would not, he supposed,: of that House, who had, deservedly or undeservedly, :he inclined to adopt. As to the former Petition, experienced the censure of the Public. had just been I lie admitted that upon reconsidering it he was of opi loaded with rewards and honours ? Was the present :nion that it bore the construction which hod induced a time for such a proceeding ? The Honourable Gen- 1 the House to receive it. But wa<: the document tlemen opposite themselves furnished the arguments under consideration of the same de.,cription ? Could with which the demagogues deluded the people.— I any Gentleman take upon him to say, that this Pe- They had themselves decried a ll public virtue. When 1 tition was any thing but a premeditated insult to that those who were opposed to them in politics, con-; House ? The tone and terms of the present Petition demised their measures, they ascribed their hostility , were so much stronger and more oansive than the to the unworthy motive of wishing to regain their i former, that he was of opinion the House should now places, although it could scarcely be believed that ; make its stand. This they were the more bound to any one would be so senseless as to do so at the pre- i.do, because having received the fotmer Petition, they sent moment. The resolution which he intended to ; 'hewed their disposition to receive such as, consistently submit to the House was, i with their dignity, they could, though resolved not to " That this 'House is at an times wining to receive the Peti- ! receive any other, which increased in the strength and tions of the !Toile; but that it cannot, under the name of a ' • insolence of their language. The lion. Gentleman Petition, receive that which is in - fact a Protest against its pore cettlings." opposite pair.. Barham) had a.,serted, that the terms Mr. GRENFELL, as he had seconded the motion lof thke Petitions had been ndopted from language of his Hon. Friend for the adjournment of the discus.; used by Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House— sion to this day, trusted that he should be indulged in ' (die Tr-ea:toy aide)—and contended that the dissatis. briefly stating the grounds of the vote he meant to faction of the public arose from sham inquiries in Par. give. He rejoiced in the short delay that had taken Lament. He did not, however, understand that Hon. place, because, in whatever way the House should de- I Gentleman to say that Parliament had lost the confi cide, its . judgment would, be was persuaded, have ' deuce of the public. What e ve r mi g ht be th a t Hn o. more weight and impression in the country. As to i Member's opinion, he, for his part, was contdent that the character of the document under consideration, he ; Parliament had not lost the confidenie of th e n a ti on . for one had no doubt; and no Gentleman who had i The measures taken out of doors, which had been al ,spoken on the subject seemed to him to have justified 1 hided to, proceeded from persons whose conduct was the tone and language in which it was. drawn up. A; totally at variance with the principles that influenced worthy Alderman, a friend of his (Alderman Combe) i that House. But as to the observation of that Hon. had stated last night, as the ground on which he 1 Gentleman, that, because a late Member of that House should vote for receiving the Petition, that he did not I (Mr. Yorke) had incurred th e dispkast ire of the public, know what might be the consequences of its rejection. I whether his conduct was deserving, or not deserving For his own part he could say, that though he might I of censure, he should not have been appointed to the not know what would be the consequences of its re- i office he now held,, he should only ssy, that if those jection, he was still disposed to think less of these con- i who had advised that appointment had been hi. sequences than of the dignity of that House. Yet if' floenced by a feeling such as that alluded to by the he was not aware of the consequences .of its rejec- i Hon. Gentleman, they would indeed have merited tion, he had a strong impression of what might be the I contempt. It was not by advising su c h a pp o i ntments , consequences of the reception of such a. document by ' but by giving way to such unworthy sert:ments, in that House. If they could once be brought to enter.' coming to a decision, that the Government would in tain such a production, their table would in a short : cur contempt. He was sure, therefore, that tne Hon. time he loaded with petitions in still more offensive; Gentleman would be ready to retract his assertion.— There was little more in the observation of the other terms, which would not fail to be promoted by those i who were ever ready to degrade and vilify the House I Hon. Member, who attributed the. discontents of the of Commons. It was by no means his opinion that i nation to the Board of T a x es . This was a most e:- there existed any such disposition generally through.: i traordinary statement. These Bo ar d s were m e rely out the country ; but he was ready to admit that a . the instruments for carrying into c%ecution the acts of considerable degree of discontents and dissatisfaction , that House. The duties they had to perform were did prevail amongst the mass of the public. Any . ! prescribed by Parliament ; and if any blame attached constitutional measures for the removal of such dis.; for the manner in which they were directed to esscute content, he should ever be prepared to support ; bat ! them, the Hon. Member himself most li,tve his full prosiedings of any different tendency should meet 'no share of it. Their duty was irksome, but it wos in:. countenance from him. One of the principal causes posed upon them. He could not agree with the opi for the public dissatisfaction arose from the oppressive, : nion of the Hon. Gentleman, that the rejection of tyrannical, and vexatious system for collection of the; the Petition should be precedgd .by any resolution or taxes. If ever a revolution should take place in this i declaration, sheaving the grounds upon which it had country, it would be brought about by the vexations been rejected. The Hon. Gentleman had himself collection, and not by the extreme burthen, heavy as 1 shewn no similar case, nor did lie believe that any si ne allowed it . to be, of the taxes. He was not a f ra id ; miler case could be shew n . Th e b est mo d e o f rnani of the meetings in Palace-yard, or at Hackney, s o festing the grounds upon which the House acred, much as of what was passing elsewhere; and of this I would be to let it appear, that after having received be was convinced, ti.at no revolutions were so much 1 the former Petition, this had been, on reading it, hn to be dreaded as the Commissioners of Taxes. H av i ng mediately rejected. stated so much upon the cause of the public discon- Mr. GRENFELL, Mr. &miner. and Mr. DEVIDAS, tent, he should not take up any more of the time of severally explained. the House, but conclude with stating his intention of Mr. PONSONBY regarded the observation; of Isis supporting the resolution read by his Hon. Friend. Hon. Friend respecting the appointment of Mr. The Hon. Mr. WARD, before he offered to the Yorke to the office of First Lord of the Admirahy, as House any observations on the Petition then before strictly constitutional ; because in this country the re them, requested that the Petition from the Electors Presentatives of the people had no other means of ot Westminster might be read. ascertaining the sentiments of their constituents but The Westminster Petition, was accordingly read Iby means of - a new election. If upon such an event by the Clerk. . ' they should be re-elected, that would be a satisfac- Mr. WARD then proceeded to declare, that he tory proof that they approved of their .public con duct ; nod, acco r d ing to . t hi s const i tut i ona l cr i ter i on , would not have said a single word on- th e p resqlit subject, had he not stood in the situation -of havin g the Electors of Cambridgeshire had given their late opposed the reception of the Petition that had just Member decisive evidence of their sense of his parlia been read. Whether the House had decided well or mentary conduct. As to the petition itself, he was sorry to differ respecting it from his Hon. Friend ; ill on the subject of the Westminster P et i t i on , ,h e would not pretend to say ; bvt this he would say, but certainly he should not vete for its rejection. He could not discover any dittg in it so o> ;, c a ~ .he petition which had been already receiv e d. 13 : should never admit that any expression s which that House might cor:sider as orren s i. e 7,.." to induce them to shut nut Crom that No wt : 1; 1 nions of the people. What WA6 actually rf % t 3,: specting this petition, or how was it to he et h e .; wotafee -If the -people found (*milt with al a i done in that House, were they not to say sot they did pot say so. how could they " plan . what grounireould.they lay for redress ? h constant maxim of the. I-louse not to allow to be presented against - a tax in the salve Se A k r .," which it was proposed, though such re . titirn s 11 .7 be presented in a subsequent Session. He i rt o 4 ;. de: take to say that hundreds of such cares wer e ill , touncl upon their Journals, in which taxes s , ere sensed as partial, oppressive. and unjust ; ap i did .not believe that any one of the se were rejected in consequenc e o f such e xpression. Could any thing be abstractedly more offer s : re t h, to charge that House with partiality, and injustice ? and yet it did not appear that petition!, had'ever been rejected in consequence their containing such charges, because that Ho i considered them as convcy:ng the sentiments cf petitioners. It should be equally ro with regard the present petitioners. They thouelit the Co; of that House unjust, and they told them so, they really had conscientiously thought the Hon, its conduct unjust, how could they express that words but such as they bad made use of, and to make use of? Far, indeed, was he from ring in the sentiments contained in their p.._ He knew of no privilege claimed by that IL which it did not possess. He knew ot n o exercised by it which it had not the right comp , —Lie had most certainly read in that m i t * elsewhere, that the House had chimed and ex e ., privileges and powers which it did not coat tionally possess ; but such statements he was fr , rn considering as offensive, proceeding as they from an ignorance of the Constitution. The render of any of the privileges of that house lead to the destruction of the Constitution. H e gretted the ignorance which seemed to influence people upon this subject ; but he could not lock it as an offence, if they differed in opinion from House, that they should say so. As to what had said of the designs of those who promoted the pi meetings in which these petitions originated, should say that he knew of no such designs. If nisters were apprized of any such designs, it their duty to make a case for Parliament, and to vidnthemselves with the means of effectually , in-acting them. But he could not admit that siatemeets in newspapers were good actherity, ought upon such subjects to be made the found u; of ac;timents in that House. For himself, he pot inclined to place any dependance upon st ments given in newspapers as reports of what been said at public meetings. The rround which he could not give credit to such gat was, that he had lately read in three or four . papers accounts all neatly coinciding of what , been said at one of these meetings in Palace Yard the Honourable Member for Oakhampton, which was sure that Honourable Member never LA and which, as he 51W the Honourable Men:ber Lis pl.tcc, he was sure that Honourable would not hesitate to declare he had never these accounts that 1 lonottrahle Gentleman was tented to have said, " that tha Gentlemen ci Oppcsicion had taken the occasion, the - motion was made by Ministers against Sir F. Burdett, to run down that Honourable Baronet; they had taken that particular occasion to their determination of rallying round the ment ; that they could not conceal or suppress joy at the commitment of that Honourable I net." Now, as to all these assertions, he had to say, that he knew of no such intention to i round his Majesty's Minkters, nor of any joy fell the commitment of Cie Iloncitir.thle Baronet, that prrtion t.t the Members of the House known the Opposition ; and if eililer existed, he must,' tho degree of their confidence which he pot perhaps in a higher degree than he merited, kuowo it. On the contra' y, they all declared vote 4 against that commitment. Again, he . read h; the same papers, chat hi was equally p buaded c ould never ILiva been said by that Her able Gentleman, that the conduct ot` the tlen had been worse even than that of the tial:sts, Lecause they bad found fault with Gt. meta for not having called in the Military soot Upon this assertion, he could also state, that it no foundation in fact. The Gentlemen on his of the House, instead of adopting such: _ had accused and condemned the Government having employed the Military before they had whether the Civil Power would not have beta dew... IL was, therefore, of opinion, that no di Lnce whateyer was to be placed in such stet: in newsropers, nor should they be relied on as t. ground of argument in that House. It had been stated, that 2 11 of those who composed two greet parties in t!lat House were cc and an%ious to get rid cf the honest and ink dent mt:n who were enemies of their corraptic It was absolutely impossible that there should be honest men in that House but the very fAv M bers who were thus represented as looking themselves as the only persons possessing int( and holding out all others as corrupt. —lt impossible that any Honourable Member could "sated, that out of the 65S Members composing House, 650 were notorious rogues, and the re' ing few alone honest. He must again therefore peat, that no dependance was to be placed upon' accounts in the public papers. As to the qt , under consideration, he should again assert that House was bound to support the right of the • to petition ; that it was conformable to its usage, to construe the language of Petitions as as was intended to be respectful to that House! that ther efore they should suffer this Petition to the table. Mr. WARDLE hoped the House would inu him in a few observations, in reply to the pc-ron ll tacks which had been made upon hint ( 1 , , to. the Opposition' --salton the newspaprri.) Right Honourable Gentleman 11.1,1 quoted troll newspapers certain expressions which were to him, that Right Honourable Gentlema have stated where 1 had found them, Walls-. as • d• Br I Petitio, 'sire, nut ,. use j se ( 1 p the cane Tr n wh at „ t r Plain, It wi ts .1. Vr a pelt! ,e 5 e , r .„ 7 ,. tf r e i e Mitl4 ;. I Were e7e ;er ar i se p v : t :., a 'Peessions. lerim e th,, oppres s .; ar that an sequence r. that H ou 'tents cf la reg ar d the c `em sa. he House' :Tess that • , and Lu . tom co n r petit I that Hou pe It to erapin : Petition, a tnd mei keit (Mak he was - as they The s blouse wo ion. He influence tot lock u on from hat had ed the pu iginated, gns. If ,igns, it tp and to :amity co nit that actherity, e found ui ;elf, he w e upon snit 01 what rrotind ch stattm. Dr four 1,, of what 1 ila 7e Yard .on, whic'a Ter 11;:d to Mentber le Gentlem, versa Ll. tan was trr • !Smelt ci le mom-at t Sir Fia.C. Baronet ; t to deal. the Gov,: oppress th arable Ba he had 0- lion to r ay joy felt! -ono, am Ise known e must, f he posses nerited, ha declared gain, he equally- p• the that Hon Op the Mini , with Gov- itary sooner. , that it a on his langua, verament I icy had tr: awe been se hat no depe :h statemen ! „I on as t It had a . composed :ere corro. mad in slept corruption. should be ry 12w Me. looking u sing int -- It could ha anposing d the rema I therefore :ed upon t';' the ques:i issert that * 1 of the MT o its consta. titions as sac t House ; lition to Ite vould ind6 l , le person.il' t ( 1199 Cheer j 6 Ited from I ere 3:tr bat. [ema sheo s , • , bec. fl