Star. — London, England, 1817-03-08 00:00:00

former Act, making it temporary, which amendment ' was Agre. d to. Lord HOLLAND thought that some more distinct words should be introduced than those of " mutinous assembly." By the law, as it stood, there were no accessories in treason, all the pasties being principals, and there surely ought to be some more distinct tee m used thin " mutinous assembly," before persons were seijected to the i pa.nr'_U_d penalties of treason, for - what was in great degree indefinite. The 8.11 was then passed, and sent back to the Commons for their concurrence in the Amendment. • • DISTnEsS IS IRELAND. The Earl of DARNLEY thought it necessary again to cell the attention of Ministers to the die - tressed state of the people in many parts of Ireland, in consequence of the scarcity Rod dearness ot provi sions. Unless some remedy was very speedily ap plied, the most serious consequences were to be ap prehended. Riots it was known had already taken place in some quarters, in consequence of the distress of. the people, and the tact was, that unless some re medy was promptly applied, there would be absolute want in some districts, where the existing scarcity WAS aggravated by the difficulty of transporting pro visions. He was not aware of the infotmat on owe. which Ministers had acted, in Tel to suspend the distillation in Ireland, but lie should feel it his duty on an early day to move for that information. The), it seemed, were of opinion that the distillation had I . gone on so for during the present season that what remained Of grain would be of no consequence to the , eneral sup?ly of food, or last tit for human food. Ile, howeser, believed, that the practice was different in Ireland with regard to the malting the Carley stored by the distillers, Iron that resorted to here. And sl he could at all rely upon h:s information, though the distillery bad consomed a great deal, still he had rea son to believe that one child of the oat: intended for that purpose were st:11 available for human vote nonce. The calculation was, that the wooed con sumption of spirits in Ireland was 4,3 io,uolt t tiros. A. barrel or oars used to pr , dome • ight g aliens, hut, he believed, owing to the is fetior quality of the oat, this season, a barrel would nut produce more than sir gllons; this would give 750,000 barrels, oneolsir of which would be 250,0(0 barrels. • It this quantity Were intmt•d . ately made available for human suste nance, he was satisfied it avoid h a ve a most b e nefi 641 effect upon the people of Ireland, by immediately -tending to relieve them from that dreadful pressure under which they were ni w bungling, and in many quarters w th the appieheneiou betote them of actual want. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that this subject ,ad occupied and s as now occupying the most rood. ous attention ot his Majesty's Ministers, who were oh course aware of its great importance. There was no doubt that rids had 'arisen in Ireland as in this country, owing to the difficulties that pressed upon the people, but Cleo- Was tins feature in the former, which certainly increased the interest caused by the 'tuation of the people, that those riots merely arose rom distress, and were not connected with any sys. ;made projects against the Government, as in this :pantry. With regard to Distillation he was deci dedly of opinion, and ha had conversed with several Gentlemen conversant with the situation of Ireland, who agreed in that opinion, that the suspension of , the distillation would do no good, it would only tend to increase illicit distillation, and not in the smallest degree add to the food of the people. The distress ,eft in some parts of more from the difficul ties that existed in transporting provisions tram where there was plenty to where there was a scarcity.— this circumstance greatly increased the difficulty of applying a remedy. Therewas certainly no deticiency of supply in the United Kingdom, taking it as a whole; and , there was no doubt that the present high prices would draw into our ports whatever further :apply was wanted. There was therefore no general measure wanted. The difficulties in Ireland west altogether local; and the best proof of this was, that no apprehensions of scarcity were entertained in the principal sea-ports of Ireland. Linder these circum stances, the greatest caution was necessarils requited, because interfering with such a subject frequently did more harm than good. No exertion, however, should be wanting on the part of Ministers toremedy the evil. The Earl of DARNLEY contended that Ministers were deeply responsible for not having early in the season suspended distillation. With regard to the seaports of Ireland, he denied that there were no ap prehensions of scarcity entertained there, and quoted a Petition agreed to at a Meeting at Belfast to prove that great fears upon this head operated there. His Lordship again pressed the necessity of adopting some measure very speedily for the relief of the people of Irelando—s—Adjourned till Monday. • HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. LOCKHART moved for Accounts of the aggregate lumber of Persons discharged under the Insolvent Debtors' Act, up to theist of March, 1817; and alro of the ow, gate amount of their Debts, of the sums paid by them, and the uutu • her of • those remanded.—• Ordered. Mr. CALVERT presented i Petition from the Parish of St. John, Horsleydown, dbmplaiuing of Parochial 'faces. Read, and ordered to be on the I able. Mr. MENNE I . l' gave notice, that on Monday nest be should move tbAt a Committee be aipOinted to inquire auto die state of the Police. lite should also present a Petition ae that day, from some of the Inhabitants of New South Wales, complaining of the conduct of the Governor. Mr. HALF DAVIS moved far Accounts of the Each. Li censee issued during the last three years, distinguishing each year. Ordered. • WEIGHTS AND MEASURES. 'Sir G. CLERK, seeing the Right Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) in his place, wished to put a question respecting a sub ject of some importance, the general equalisation of Weights and Measures. It was known to the House t ,at. the Bill which he had brought in to effect that purpose Lut Session, had been throwo out in another plisce. It was also intimated, that previousto adopt ing any measure, a Commission should be appointed, composed of t h e best informed individtuls, to hes quite into every bearing of the subject. He now w i s hed to know whether may slept had been takers to appoint that Commileirms or WHOMr the imeatica still semained to be carried into effete; • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was enabledirs ieform the Honoprabie Baronet, that a mesieure, terse' * progress for the purpose to which • he had Aided: A Comm i s sion bad been issued, an dethe was for the present, under the superin tei.sinnce et the Awl Society. . . Ltd CGICHRANE gave aotlee, that he should •hom take an early opportunity of submitting certain Re solutions to the House, :hewing the jtigtice and ne cessity of equalizing the Interest of the Funded Debt with the depreciated value of Land and 1 rades. acl • • hor , ots en' so co thr Ira sill fro Let • cot de Cirt wl thi to de fel tie th 1 1 '1 ap of wl Pr Si • In ' al • , at / as Ir I • In ii be / se se pl th I. SI A as lc al al tl . . . U 1 I , i • a . PIitTITIOgS. Lord COCHRANE presented the Petiton of Henry Pluckwell, late landlnrd of the Sutlers' pub , lic-hnuse at the Horse Guards, complaining of Isis I having been deprived of his Licence by the Hoard of Green Cloth, and reduced to a state of starvation with nine children, and praying for relief. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL cortendert, that it was impossible fur the House to interpose its an. thority to replace the petitioner in possession of his public-house. Lord COCHRANE suggested that the manner in which the House might interfere, might be by re ferring the Petition to the Committee of Police, for the appointment of which notice of a Motion . had lately been given. Serjeant BEST agreed in opinion with the Rniutwable and Learned Attorney-General, that the house could not with propriety receive this petition. . . Sir FR fl NCIS Butiptrt contended, that this war, a cAae wioch called for the interposition of the House. The petitioner complained of an unjust mode (if proceeding adopted towards him by the Board of Green Cloth, and a sort of connivance be tween that Bard and the Officers of the Horse Guards of a very reprehensible nature. The House were bound to inquire into the fact, whether the Board of Green Cloth had or had not made an un justifiable use of the powers committed to them ? The Petition was negatived without a division. Mr. NEVIL LE presented a Petit ion from the Free. holders, Copyholders, Leaseholders, and other In habitants of Berkshire, prating for Parliamentary Reform. He intimated, that any Mo.inn for going into a Committee on the state of t e Representation, should have his hearty cor,curr:•nce. The petition did ro , t carry its prayer for Reform to those lengths that certain wild and mischievoub men demanded. Lord COCHRANE said it would be much bettes t the ductli: , ei alluded to, than attack the ndividua:s who maintained them. Parlianatnts had been annual fcr neatly two centuries, and it was too fstuch to call those individuals who advised a return to this t r.tc:ice wickeJ men, who wished to, mislead the public. if there was any thing absurd and mis chievous in the doctrine, they ought to refute it ; but to be constantly harping against those individua!, who held the opinion in question, was not to be en. dured.—The Petition was read and laid on the table. Mr. CHARLES DUNDAS presented a Petition from the City of York, praying for Retrenchment and Reform in the Representation. • Mr. CURWEN presented a Petition from John Wheeler, late acting Purser in the Navy, stating that he had been in the service ever since the year 18045; that in 1812 he had been wounded at the at tack of a French privateer, by a gun shot, which had shattered his knee ; that as a reward for his ex ertions on that occasion, he had been promoted to the rank of Acting Purser ; but that, in consequence of a new regulation, which limited the • number of Acting Pursers on half-pay, he was left out. He •Iterelore prayed to be restored to his rank, in order to enjoy the benefit of the half-pay. Mr. CROKER was desirous of explaining the grounds of the present case. It was not long since there bad been only one %Verrone Officer in every ship. In the course of war, however, the number oi Pursers had exceeded that of s:,ips. They were then borne on the check at one shilling a day. But as this Had been found inadequate for their support, the Board of Admiralty hsd recommended that halt•pay should be given to Pursers; but in order to consult economy, it had been ordered that no more Pursers shoulJ bl made than there were ships in the Navy on the ola establishment. The Petitioner had un fortunately fallen under the operation of that regula tion, and could not be promoted until the number of Pursers on half-pay should have been brought down. Mr. CURWEN understood that there were not mo e than about twenty individuals in the same un. furtunate situation as the prisoner. Relief might, therefore, be extended to them without committing a very considerable breach of economy. Mr. CROKER believed that there were several hundreds of individuals in the same situation as the Petitioner, wkr would come on half pay if the door was once thrown open. He had no objection, how ever, to receiving the Petition. The Petition was then read, and ordered to lie on the table. YIN A NCI COM M Mr. CALCRAFT rose, at the desire of a Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Tierney), to state on his behalf, that on account of ill health he was prevented from being able to continue to attend the sittings of the Finance Committee. He was also desired to assure the House, that it was only on account of ill health, and by the advice of his Physician, that his Right Him. Friend was prevented from attending ; and that, if his health was restored, he would resume his seat in tie Committee. Lard CASTLEREAGH having expressed his regret at the cause of the absence of the Right Hon. Gentleman from the Committee, proposed that in his plaise the name of the Honourable Gentleaan (Mr. Calcraft) should be added to the Finance Committee. Mr. 'BROUGHAM hoped that the Noble Lord, 'as a Member of the Committee, would have no ob jection to state to the House, what progress had been made by the Committee, aad when its Report might be expected to be presented to the House. Lord CAS'I'LEREAGH replied, that the Report was now drawiog up, but that he did not expect that it could be presented to the House before the Easter recess. Mr. CALCRAFT expressed his sense of' alp ho nour that bad born conferred on him by adding his name to the Committee, and promised to give his attention to the busineu committed to their charge. - POO& LAPPS. Mr. CALCRAFT then rose to present to the Home Petitions from the inhabitants of two different parish's in the county of Dorset, complaining of the i eacesum pressure of the Poor-rates, and praying for some alteration in the Poor Laws. He begged the attention of the Noble Lord ( . Castlereagh) to thel statement contained io these Pennons. One of them, from the perith of Lankley, stated that that parish cootaised 575 inhabitants., of whom 419 at this too. l!neat are receiving parochial aid t that the Poor-rates na that parish amounted .to .18s. or 19s. for every pound sterling of vack.reat ; and that *funds would be, at the present rate of disttibution, exhausted by the 22d of this month. The other Petitirin was from the parish of Swanney, which contained a greater number of inhabitants than the other, and it stated, that in it the Poor.rates arnotmted to a guinea on the pond st!o ling of rack-rent. He knew that the facts stated in their petitions were true, because. they had come under his own observation, as the parishes were in his neighbourhood. The inhabitants of these two parishes were principally engaged in the stone trade, the tat? total stagnation of which had :teen die cause 'ot their present distress. Toe Petitioners had not yet been compelled to have recourtc to a rate in aid, ow ing to the liberality of the gentlemen in their neigh bourhhod, at the heard of whom, be was happy to mentioa, was Lord Eldon. But as there was every probability that they would ultimately be obliged to have recourse to a rate in aid, he submitted the pro priety of the Committee now sitting on the Poor Laos adopting some it.easures to facilitate rates in aid. It was quite evident that some great alteration was lokf• cessary in the present system of the Poor Laws, and he SAW no more effectual way than by making the holders of funded property contribute towards the maintenance of the Por.r. There was no reason why the utmost publicity should not be given to the 11:4111CS of persons possessed of Wetted property ; and if this were done, it would then be vet y easy in every parish to saddle the inhabitants of it who possessed funded property with their share of the Poor-rates. He then moved that the Petitions be brought up. Lord CASTLEREAGH thought the cases .of the petitioners worthy of attention. Dot he thought it worthy of notice, that throughout the kingdom a great proportion of the expense of labour appeared not under the head of labour, but under the head of poor rates ; because the farmers generally acted on a very false principle, by compromising the poor rates, by acceptiug the labour of paupers, whose wages to the wnole amount were thus said to be poor rates. It must not therefore be supposed, th it 'when it was stated that the annual amount of the poor rates-had started from three milliuns to sesett that the number of paupers had increased in the sane proportion ; for the fact was, that a gre it part of the money laid out on the wages of labour was disivised under the name of poor rates. At the iai»e time, he did not mean to say that this m ide it at all less necessary to provide it poss , ble some re inedy for the heavy pressure of the poor rates; only it was necessary to correct what was likely to pro duce a false impression as to the real amount of the poor rates—(Hear, hear.) Mr. CALCRAFr explained.. He agree.] per fectly that, in agricultural districts, a great propor tion of money laid nut in the wages of labour was put under the head of poor rates. But that did not apply to the petitiOners, as they were not engaged in agriculture, belt in the stone trade, which was now su a state of complete stagnaiicao. Mr. CUItWEN agreed with the Noble Lord .reprobating the pernicious practice which existed in many counties of mixing the wages of labour with tioors' Rates ; but there were many parts of the country where the increise of the Pools' Rates was not to be accounted for in this way. With respect to tie fund holders, it was indeed true that a great pair oi the property of the country for want of-Means of coming at it, had hitherto escaped from bearing its share. The More he contemplated the sublet!, the more he was convinced that the House ought, before they separated, to take some measures for subjectang the futid-Holders ro their fair share of the burdens of the Pam's' Rates, withoos-whiih-it- - wbald be found impossible to continue to relieve the distresses of the country. From every thing lie had seen of the Noble Lord in the Committee, he was convinced that he would . heartily concur with them in recommending such measures as, alter a minute investigation, should app.'sr best calculated to lighten the pressure of this evil.. . Lord COCHRANE said, what bad fallen from I the preceding speakers sliewed the necessity for the course which he should recommend with regard to I funded property in the motion of which he had this night given notice. To shew the distressed state of the country at present, it was only necessary lb at rte that at Manchester, in place of 295. which the workman formerly received for weaving a piece of cotton goods, . be now received only 7s. The wages of thi, person were now etnirely consumed its rent, candles, and paste, and the whole of his subsistence was derived trom the parish. The cloths so manufactured and paid for in this manner by the landed property, were sent to America, and it was impossible for the master to send them there it he paid a higher rate for weav ing. On the goods so sent to America, a consider able duty was laid by the American Government; so that in fact a heavy burden was borne by the landed Gentlemen of this country for the benefit of Ame rica. This state of things could not be altered till the interest on the funded property was reduced in a proportionate degree to the fall in the value of land. It was notorious that in every part of the country, at least in every part he was acquainted with, the far met was absolutely unable to pay any rent whatever. Such was the serious situation to which the country was brought by a system of lavish expenditure. It would be better to burn all our ships than to trade as we were doing, for itwasnotorious that all foreign COM tnerce was carried on to our detriment at this moment . He was persuaded, from what lie had been able to ascertain from the writings of others, and from his own examination, that no re;ulation with respect to the Foots' Rates could alleviate the distresses under which the country laboured. It could not be sup posed that the poor were to li f e down and die without food : they must have support ; they were able and willing to work, but there was no work for them to do. He could not conceive any condition more pi. liable than that of efese persons. Unless a remedy were found, for the distress of the country, it would be put an end to by means which they would all wish to avert ; and lie was convinced that this re. medy was only to be found in the reduction of the interest of the National Debt, which was contracted in a fictitious paper currency, at that dine much de preciated. Without such a step, the payment of the interest would complete the transfer of -the land to the Government, as the agents for the fund-holders. Without spelt a measure, in a very short time the proprietors would receive no income from the land: A Mums on the Ministerial side of the House, whose name we , could not learn, said, that he did not think that the distress was by any means so great as to requite that any dther kind of property should be rated to the support of the poor, elan that which present contributed. He anticipate! reecli from due distribution of the sums raised for that Purpose • her he found, on referring to Rennes made in ; but net printed, that out of seven millions raised ter the maintenence of the Poor, the sum paid by Over. seers, for transperting paupers lent pa t i e h tv parish, was no less than ‘3oo,ooo—(ilear, hear). Sir C. BURRELL said, he felt it Ins d u ty to pro . test Ageinst the elect, ice held not by the Nobl e ( Lord Cochrane) ; fie was convinced that when. the Furs Mulder was - trenched upon, and through him h. nour and public faith were eiolAted, the peewit: distress woold be increased tee-told. He augured much from the present sta:e 0: thT WhiC;l ile:d out a reasonable expectation thet titre itienied ite eee e t would assist the landhol e fers by way ot mortgage, whic:i could not be hoped for when the feuds eremite,' five per cei t. on money invested. He was convinced thAt Al) , interference with the funditolder would there fore be an injury to the landholder also—( e rk„ , He w is surprised that the Member for Carlisle (Mr. (cui wen), wen was remarkable tor sound sentes s h eu et have j ailed in eo wild a theory AS the prepe e n i ce bteAking faith with the creditor. Greet exertiens had Oven made in the district lie was connected with to employ the poor, even those scarcely als;e to work, for the 'purpose of avoiding idleness and the appear. ante of pauperism. He thought it would be most desirable to ii.crease the circulating medium, which would give a facility to the emeloyment of the 1.1. bout ing classes throughout the kingdom, and wimid do more to restore prosperity than any remedies which had been proposed. Mt. LOCK HART laid, he was anxious to correct an erroeeeus idea which the Noble Lord ( Lord Coch mane) had either' expressed or implied, namely, drat it was in contemplation, by way of reform in the Pour Laws, to propose to refuse relict to Able bodiel who were without employment. No arch idol w e; entertained, he believed, by any Member to the House, and certainly not by any Member of the Committee on the Poor Laws; the idea entertained by the Committee, was t.i encourage Indust; y, but by no means to refuse relief when industry teas :ewe unavailing. He agreed in that had ti:en s.id by tee Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh) as to the bad teem of mixing up Poore' Rates with the wages but be denied that this system had been s oleetery the part of the landlords. When the pupil:ion in creased, and so many pow e applied for 'shish raiiet, it was found impossible to give the same sum to th e single and rnarri.id men. It the unmarried men ceived as much as: would support a family, they would have spent more then they had any teed for ; but as it was impressible to make any distinction be tween single and married men, in the actual rate ot wages, the price of labour was razed at a low rate, and an additiosed sum was given to those who bad families out of the perish rates—(Hear, It was not often he agreed with the Noble Lore* be low (Lord Cochrane), but he must say, he concerret with him in thinking, that if that system :vas not pot an end to, by which one species of pore:Ty was ex empted from all rates and taxes to which enters we'd suhj ct, and diet refs to an amount equ it to all the rents of the kingdom, it mast render all trade and in dustry wholly unproductive, and thus cht ep tee rods on which it depended. He did not tri,ft to tee any compulsory measure adopted, but he lookeu to tt.e gond sense of persons heeding all species of property, and trusted to their conviction of the expediency of making some SAClitiCes for the security ot their own and every other property. Sir C. MOSEI.EY allowed that in many instances in Manchester the weavers got no more than .seen shillings for a piece of cloth for which they formerly go: twenty-nine shillings, and that the rest ot what was necessary for their aubsistence was made up from the Poor's-rates. The average rate of wages was, he thought, seven shillings and sixpence a week. But the Poor's-rAtes, from which their subsiStence was supplied, could not, in that instance, be considered a tax nn the Landholders; the merchants lied wale. houses, and rAteeble property in the town AA neigh bourhood. He was himself a proprietor of hand its that town, And he by no means considered those rates as pressing unfairly upon him.. Mr. BROUGHAM said he agreed with his Ho nourable Farad who'bed last spoken, as to the ohm net in which the Poos' e -rates operated. He weld not let this opportunity pass without pr ,testing is well against the propose} of the Noble Lord (Cie chrane), as that of the Honcurable B.lfUlirt (Sir C. Burrell) who had profeseed so much abhorrence at the Noble Lord's proposition. The difference be tween the Noble Load's project for reducing the in terest of .the debt, and the Houtn - able Batons es pro posal for incteasing the quantity of the circulittine medium, was only the difference between two geodes of bankruptcy ; or, as had been well eels/steed by a celebrated writer on these subj:cts, the difference be tween sicret fraud and open violence—(.leer, hear.) For what distinction could there really be, between taking boldly a certain p9ttioa of his annuity twin the creditor, and making that annuity worli so much the less, by an increase of the leper circulati et I He, for his own part. did not see mere good faith or jus tice in one proposition than in the other. Though it was with hesitation that he differed from so respec table authority as that of his Hon. Frien.: (S:r C. Moseley), he was afraid that Le had nutlet-rated the distresses in the manufacturing districts—for from the inquiries which he (Mr. Brougham) had felt it his painful duty to make on this subject, lie was fully persuaded, however grievous the f.rct was, that the average rate of wages was not more than 3s. or M. a week, This subject was a most interesting one, And the more it was inquired into—as it was his inteutien on Tuesday to call on the House to de—'t would be. found that distress existed, of which the kionse scarcely a conception—and that even thane Nletrieers c.innected wi;b the manufacturing part ef tile coun try. were not aware of the wholly uuceempled Fres sure upon those districts. The first petition was brought up and read. Mr. CALCRAFP explained that lie had timer intended to suggest any inimcsiou of peblic. I lite.— He had wished to sue-rest to Members of the C.,J:a. mittee on the Poor Lews the propriety ot making come regulations respecting the rates :a r.e other point which he had in view, wit:ch was prebahly impracticable, was the making to :deg p:opetty rate able to the support of the poet. The Petitiou horn Swanage was also read. Loa FOLKSrONE said lielretel a relll1: 1 1:" li e lie uOl me COll ch. TO IUI trd tat 11.1 WI VII till 1112 np in go st. to be Pq ea nt th ce IQ St of te ci JL cI •