Star. — London, England, 1817-06-06 00:00:00

Ong hi. sense of the services of that Nobleman, in • the Chair of that Hnose—(Hoer. Wt..) —lt was ndt Lis intention to take the scour of the House upon the question, but he could not in compliance with an over-ruling sense -f duty but dissent to it. Mr. C. W. WYNN. having taken an active part in supporting the vote of censure alluded to by the ?ioble L,T rt i 0 , 0 s poke last, he could not but "say a few sox& on tis occasion in consequence of what had fallen from the Noble Lord. When he looked back on between fifteen and sixteen years of active and zealous service, he slid not leul that one instance suede such an exception as to render that distin pished character unworthy of the thanks of the House. It was impossible that in such a long period of time, in a situatirn which requited the frequent determi nation of the nicest questions—under such drains. stances it was not possible that no difference of opi nion should take place on any of the deciiions. But, looking on this vote in its true light, as testifying the approbation of the Hous.• of the general conduct of their Lite Speaker, it had his most hearty ton current e. Mr. BANIEES expressed much surprise that any oppo.iiien should be given to the presentornOtion. It was not his wish to revive t! e debate on the'conduct of ti e late Speaker un the partiCular occasion alluded to, but to• could not retrain from reminding the House ilia, it had been shear that his conduct on that o-casi n was justified by no less an authority than that ot. Mr. Speaker Onslow. Hs was 'trey sorry the Nook Lord (W. Russell) had found it OW cessary to disturb the unanimity of the House on this occasion. The question was then put upon the Resolution, which was agreed to. It was ordered that Mr. Speaker should signify this Vote a the House to Lord Colchester. Lord CASTLEREAGH this% moved, 4g That an humble Address be presented to his Royal High ness the Prince Regent. beseeching his Royal High. ness that he would be graciously pleaseJ, in the name and on the behalf of his Majesty, to cooler some signal mark of the Royal favour on the Right Hon. Charles Baron Colchester. late Speaker of thi s House, for the great and eminent services performed to his country, and to assure his Royal Highness that whatever expense his Royal Highness might think it proper should be incurred for this purpose, the House would make good." Mr. PONSONBY said, that the House had al ready got into cl&culty enough on this subject. A Message trona the Prince Regent stood recorded on the Journals, and no further notice had been taken of it. Aud now the House was called upon to tell the "'lime Regent, that whatever sum his Royal Matinees thought prow to settle up n Lord CL , I• ehester, the House would make good. His Ibb• jeXiien us this motion was,that it deprived the House of the power of considering what was a proper prow,. sion for Lord Colchester or his family. He, toere fore, wishedshat the Noble Lord would reconsider this pact ul the Address. He was sure mere was no reluctance sin the part of the House to make a liberal provision for Lord Colchester"; but what he objected to was, that the House should deprive itself of the discre tion of dries Mining what was a proper provision. The House could hardly be said toy/rant any thing when itleft to Another to Si the magnitude an. He there foes implored the Noble Lord-to reconsider this, and tcslet the House be unanimous on a subject on which' they were all disposed pi be unanimous. .Mr. B. BATHURST said that the present medal was exactly similar to the Address voted by the ron the elevation of Mr.' Speaker Onslow to eerage. The Right Hon. Gentleman then read the, Address moved on the resignation of Mr. Speaker Onslote, which etas word for word the same with the eon now MOveds -Mr. PON/AWRY thought there was a difference between the present case and that of Mr. Speaker °Wow. In that case the Crown was to grant a pension out of the Civil fist, and the Crown at that time had the power of doing so. But in the present cam the Crown could nut grant any passion out of the Civil List als.ive alit() 4 yea. It was thetetOte now necessary for the Crown to make the grant i n the first instance. Another objection to the present motion was, that there now stood recorded upon the liernms a message from the Prince Regent upon the subject. He begged his Majesty's Ministers to at tend to this. It was no cavil raised by him. It such a message was to be immediately toUowkd by ouch a mutiou as this, it would be no more than an echo of that message. What the fiouse ought now to do was In grant the money. Mr. Rtost, said that the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ponsunby) was under a misconception as to the power-of the Croon to grant a pension to Mr. Speaker Onslow, for the Crown could then only have granted a pension for the life at the Men King. Bp Mr. PONSONBY-- 0 lbe Right Hon. Gentleman must however recollect, that the Crown could then have grant, d a pension for its own lite." Mr. ROSS-;-“Jismisea beyond it." Mr. C. W. WYNN really .thought the motion l liable to the objection of his Right Honourable Vriead. Nom et the usual steps had been taken open the Message from the Crown on this subject, and these steps had not been taken, because the House Douala * by taking no notice of it, to shew its dieapptisb.oun. He was of opinion, after the House had marked by their votes their sense of the conduct of their Speaker, it would appear much mere ob. jecsionablt, it they were to proceed immediately to vete the peusion, as he thought it ill-advised and ill •judited.to have recommended such a Message. If the House were to pledge itself to make good what ever the Crown Might _be pleased to bestow in this instances it was the same as if they wets to agree to pay fur the erecting of any National Monument, or goo* ebtipitilding of a Chew) as large as St. Paul's. )hat aisuels a Message were to come down, would elk li su nie pledge itself to make good the amonnt, white - iris is might be, or in trOy as to grant a re lated to an indefinite amount On the whole, bow er*, as the Motion did nut pl. dge the House to any nillseceseatf expense, bis as ready to give his assent *nay tool that was reasonable. nANICRS contrasted the proceeding with re. • sitect to Mr. Speaker °mow. to Mew that tt would 'th* ilceeded the power of the CfUWII, at that time, vagrant a pension tut she Inc ot. another prison,— .Bllta by. she clay* ut .01y, Burtein IhU,.w.tush Sa i ie to pasioes, so rowel Could its give mots twelve honked pounds. except Member: of the Royal Family, and those individuals to whom it might be voted by Parliament. It was, therefore, sviely within the power of Parliament to do it by an Act of their own; but there was no instance of the Crown expending any sum of public money without the au thority of the House to make goad the same The Honourable Gentleman alluded to the cases of the grants to the Duke of Wellington and the family et the late Mr. Perceval ; and observed, that what had been done in one case could be done in another.— He concluded with expressing his wish for the Ad dress to be carried,' 10 being more respectful to the late Speaker, and on this ground he should support the motion. Mr. TIERNEY said, if this question were to be discussed many years hence, it would appear that the pension bad grown out of the Message instead of the Address. The grant might be made at once, and all that might be notified to the House was, that it had been nude, without the amount being made known till then. The case of the grant to Mr. Per ceval's 'unsay was precisely of an opposite descrip tion, for the question then was for enlarging the sum. But what would be the situation of the House if an Amendment were to be moved to diminish it on the present , ccasion ? He could not hot believe that th-re must have been some understanding as to the amount of remuneration intended to be given, 'though the Hotne, as yet, were in the dark about it. He had heard scver4l versions of it. At first he had heard that it was intended to give 5t4,000 to Lord 'Colchester, and /12,000 for the second life. Since then it has been said his Lordship was to have €3,006. But it was nut too much to ask Ministers what really was the amount intended I for he did not believe the House ever went so blindfolded to work before, as to pledge themselves to make good a sum, without knowing what it was. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could have no objections to give the Right Honour. able Gentleman the information about which he seemed so desirous. As to the►point of the duration of the pension, it was obvious the House must be called on by the Crown ; but he had not the least difficulty in stating what wits the amount of the pro •ision to be submitted to the consideration of the House. It was likely he should have £4,000 for Lord Colchester, with 813.000 to the first heir male that should succeed to the title. That granted to Mr. Speaker Onslow was £3,000 for two lives; theretore, considering the difference of the times, he did not apprehend the House would be charged with leaning to the side of extreme liberality in granting this sum. He bad only stated these points, that Gen tlemen might come- with their minds more matured to the subject when the Bill should be proposed. Mr. TIERNEY replied, that he was not satisfied with what he had heard, as he still could not but think the House was called on to make good the claim the Peerage might be deemed to have to sup port. But he would ask„, was not Lord Colchester already in possession, as appeared by a former Sine. cure Report, of a place producing 41,500 a-year ? It so, he would have seszoo a-year, and his son, on succeeding him, only 43,i)00. He could not con ceive why the eon was to maintain the dignity of the Peerage with an,lioo, 4114 the father to have £5,506. On the whole, though wishing to do every thing fair to;eards the late Spa .ker, he thought this to be tin excessive provision, in the present state of the country, and. ought riot, under all the circumstances, to be consented to. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in explanation, said, undoubtedly the late Speaker was in possession of a place on the Irish Establish ment of a-year Irish currency, or £1,200 nominal. But he received that remuneration in con sequence of ri anguishing a place for life of 41,000 a.year, when he accepted the situation of Speaker. Sir CHARLES hIONCK thought the Message ought to have been noticed in the printed votes. Mr. PETER MOORE considered that the ques tion of granting this reward should be left to the Consnaitter of Supply. Mr. SUMNER.—The situation in which the late Speaker was now plaeed, had no resemblance to that of Speaker Onslow. Mr. Onslow, at the time his pension of £3OOO was granted, had a title to look to as Peer, and he had also an ample fortune to sup port that title The profits of the office were then considered at MIX % and accordingly, the House in its wisdom allotted him and his son that sum for their lives. It so happened that Mr. Onslow never get the title, and his son was kept out it fur eight or ten years after his lather's death, and the pension of £9OOO was enjoyed by the two for about tilty-seven years. It at that time the House saw cause to give Mr. Onslow a pension suited to the profits of the of fice, he maw no reason why Lord Colchester should be allowed only two•thirds of the salary granted to the person filling the Chair, sad which was st6uoo annually. On these views, and also considering that Lord Colchester had well deserved every attention the House could bestow on him, he differed irom the Right Honourable Gentlethan (the Chancellor of the .a. Exchequer) nearlhitih. Hr was induced the more to du so, recollecting as lie did the manner in which Mr. Speaker Foster, in the Irish Cumin us, had been rewarded. He was aware, that when compensation was alluded to, as give, to persons holdibg situations in behind at that time, that the motives for giving that would be thought of ; but he could assure them that Mr. kiosk, had beta actuated by the most dia.. intetetted motives, and he had received £5OOO. The Motion was their agreed to. MT* OF Fla CoUNTRY. Lord CASTLEREAGH appeared at the Bar., *rids the Papers referred t o i n t h e Me s sa ge o f hi s R opal Highness the Prone Regent, which were, as Ile the ho us) hornet °tedio, brought up, sealed in a G ree n big. the tits' of the Papers being read, his Lordship Moved thit;Oreler of the Day for taking into conside ration the Message which his ft-lat Eigliness had been graciously pleated to mod down to the House. Lord CASTLEREAGH.-- . -" J apprehend, Sir, there cats exist no difference of opinion. in -the Mame. respecting the .Motion with which I ahall etweigje because, by acceding to that Motioo, the use dues not dosed, nor Athrectly pledge itself to ethos,-fee , ukr.pructedings may be adopted. My 14014111-11191 simply be for ign rtd.ress to his Royal aghneil ,- Pi meg Regent, (banking him for his gracious an nzoili,atiuti to the House, anti assUring him at the. !Attention of the House to coke. hist tdessege into. 41 1 immediate consideration. Any disclaim, therefore, at this moment, on this quettion. will, I am confi dent, be premature; as it is impocsible (or me to state that the line of Conduct is that may li:reatter b adopted, till the Committee which I am about c pro pose have made :heir Report. When t11;s otion for an Address shall have been disposed of. I shall then move the appointment of a Committee, aid I think it extremely proper, that most of the Mem bers on the former Co mince be to appointed ; kind that the new Solicitor General be nominated a Mem ber, in room of Sir William Gartow, now one of the Barons of his Majesty's Court ni Exchequer. His Lordship having moved for the Address, Lord FOLKESTONE rose. It wit not hii in- tention to oppose the motion in the present instance, hut he could not avoid making a kw observations, especially after the measure which the Noble Lord had stated it was his intention to propose. He fully concurred in the sentiments of the Petition presented in the early part of the evening tr .m Reading, and in the abhorrence which the Petitioners kit at the line of conduct Ministers were about to adopt, and he certainly implored the House to pause before they ac ceded to what would be proposed. He could sin cerely wish that this was the first step to a despotic Government, but he was obliged to say it was only one of a series, in which, if the House persevered, there would be soon a total extinction of the last spark of English freedom. N:ver, in truth, we have the enjoyment of the Habeas C rpus Act again, as every argument which was now brought forward io support its present suspension, 'nigh! be no every occasion adduced. Early 1 ist Session lie had warned the House against the consequences of entrusting Ministers with a Standing Army of so enormous an amount, especially in time of peace ; and he left the House to judge whether what he had then said had not unhappily been realised. In truth, never had a measure more dangerous to public li berty, than that of a Standing Army in time of pro found peace, been thought of. Another step equally fatal to public freedom, was the passing of the Alien Act, which was nothing more nor less than a direct introduction into England of the Lefties de Cachet. When that unfortunate measure was pr pased, he told them it would lead to the people of this country being deprived of liberty, and this had, he was sorry N say, too soon taken place A year had not elapsed since the passing of that Act, till the people of Eng land saw the bulwark of their liberties overthrown by the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. Such was the deplorable state the country, such the boasted liberty of Englishmen—(Hear, hear, hear.) — It was however astonishing, that with such an immense Standing Army, Ministers should not rest satisfied, but propose a measure which went to make the Crown despotic, and the people as miserable and as absolute slaves as -it was possible for human beings to be. No objection could be made to the appointment of a Committee, as it was the established practice of the House ; but be should certainly move, that the Committee be appointed merely to arrange the pa pers, because he would not consent to surrender to them the power of dictating to the H. iuse. (Hear, heir.) roe wished the House would as a House take sly? power into its own hands, and judge for itself, with out alloa•ing any Committee in dictate to it. And he would also wish, that a new Committee be ap. pointed. The Noble Lord had talked of the last committee in a manner which would lead.one. to suppose he thought them apt and clever for their : duty; but the Hoise should remember, that it was probable the Members of that Committee might be biassed in consequence of their former opinions, and therefore in fairness they ought to have new persons. The distresses of the country had led to some out rages, and the Noble Lord would now see, that those distresses were not the effect of a transition from war to peace, but arose from a bad system of policy, and this could easily be shewn by the doctrines propagat ed among the people formerly, that their happiness and prosperity resulted from the wisdom anti good policy of Governmem If these doctrines demon strated any thing, they did 'too much for Ministers, because they must be considered as proving that the misfortunes of a country arose from the ilt policy of its rulers. Viewing then the matter in this light, he implored the House to pause before it agreed to the proposal of the Noble Lord, and his colleagues. TI distress had led to these outrages, bett e r a t once would it be to inquire into the causes of the distress, than .ccede to the wishes of Ministers in introducing this Suspension s which was obviously intended for the express purpose of stifling the public opinion on the necessity of Parliamentary Reform. (Hear, hear). Mr. CURWEN expressed his concurrence in the opinions of the Noble Lord who had just spoken A delay of a few days, until the approacting trials were over, would, without the apprehension of any impro• per disclosures, enable the whole House to rake the Papers into consideration, instead of referring them to the consideration of a Secret Committee. The Motion was then agreed to. Lord CASTLEREAGH then mosed, that the Papers which he had presented to the House should be referred to a Committee. — Loid 'FOLKESTONE mired as an Amendment to add the woods," to examine and arrange, and to report the substance to the House; omitting only bui.h names as, in the judgment of the Committee, it would be dangerous to the persons thembelres to disclose." This Amendment was negatived without a divi sion, and the original Motion agreed to; as was alto a Motion, that the Committee should be one of Se crecy; and another, that the Committee should con sist of 21 Members. Lord CASTLEREAGH then moved, that such Members of the Committee appointed on the sth of February last as were now Members of the House, otould be Members of the proposed Committee. Sir J. NEWPORT objected to this proposition on three distinct grounds;—ln the first plac e it was go ing out of the way t o o ff er an insult to the other Members ut the House of Commons. The present was a n.uch more important occasion than that on which the former Committee was appointed. We were then at the commenctment of a Session, and of whatever power Ministers wished to be possessed,. they required but for a limited time. Now, we were , Approaching the close of the Session e lnd any such I Owen, it granted at all, must• of necessity be pro- Amsted until another Session of Parliament ; and it iumour were true, till the first Session of another Nniamen . 141 th e second place, h e o bj ecte d to t h e 'mutton, because, withdtat wishing to attribute any un due motives whatever to the Members cf the former Commutee, he was persu idea they could not possibly I re-enter en the consid.r•non f the subject, with tl'.eir minks wholly free from prejudice H $ third 1, (C., tion to the motion was, that Moti‘ters, pronounced their ' , pit ion en the subj. ct ht gated, ought not to be Members of the Commine. The N hie Lord had unequivocally stated in h place, that it was the conviction of fits Majesty's \lt ,turn that the Habeas Carpus ought to be further suspiind. ed. He, therefore, on the part of the c untry, ct a l. lenged the Jury who were to s:t on the Lithrties of the Country. he shituld, in similar circumstances, c h a ll enge a Jury en any ciiimlttal trial— (Ifear,Ator). It was impessible that the c ainiry could have. tor trial by a Jury, many of the ter t• J her b ~t •vhich 114 d already pronounced judtzment ir the car. H thought it right to announce his determination, should the result of the inquiry be to propose the c ritinea Lion of the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. Di 'take the sense of the House on a clause which ha should feel it his duty to propn.e, limiting the Jura.; Orin of the Suspension to the es:smite, of the preterit Parliament. If the pent.c of wo!r n.m i n a state to enjoy their privileges at:d were not in a state to entitle them to the erucire eti the Elective Franchise. Nulling conk'. be more incte cent than to proceed to the election of a new H.'use of Commons with a sword hanging ever the t gad of every individual by a hair, that 'aright be cut at the pleasure of the Minister. Ha would, therehne. move, as an amendment, instead of the motion of e ?table Lord, to refer the subject to vie consideration of a Cimmittee, to be chosen by eacludui g every Member of the last Com •••ttee, antl every one pis Majesty's Ministers, they having already prunes, teed an opinion on the subject. This Amendment was put from the Chair, but be. fore it was seconded, Sir J. NEWPORT moved, that the Committee consist of the following Members : Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Abercromby Lord G. Cavendish Sir 3 S. bright Sir C. Mordauat Lars: A thotpe Right Hon. W. Pole Mr. S. Worley Sir S. Romilly Mr. *. Wynn the Attorney General Mr. Shaw r..-f. vre The Solicitor General Mr. C.,4: eauy Cut Exeter) Sir J. 'haw Mr. Lyttitton (ot sVorceiter• Mr. Davenport shir.) Mr. G. Russell Mr. Wilberforce Mr Fane Right dun. Hivy Addington. Mr. BA I'HURST Objected to the irrr 0... .1 y of the Honourable Baronet in tiviving fir thr ap p .ant aunt of th.ise particular Members while A motion was still before the Home, als ,, to de by .1. .or,. Baronet tor a l pointing the Conot.i.iee by bulim. Sir JOHN NEW NUR I' iibservcd.th4t his ni .lion for appointing the Committee by ballot had on b••en seconded, and appotted to the SoeaLer on , fle subject. The SPEAKER said, th.,* tt.es ca•led &INA'. he was hound to say that h H t.. 1. ...iiiiourable lissom-I had ssithdrawn his motion for the arpoiti- molt i.f & Com. mittee by halliit boore it ;Ina secoi , di.d. . Mr. BATHURST then prcree-led t argue/gain* the second motion made by the H , netriabie B aeher i which, in his opinion, was eon!? ,ry to h all preeerene in.such cases. It was usnal, .often thepowers any proposed Cutn mince were par is( d oe.etorine en each name, but, on the lionoto,:blef Barunet's plan, the House mutt appoi nt a ll er hol e f the Members whom he had proposed Ht• d. need teat there was any disrespect to the oille t Metrhere m proposing the re-appointment of the Committee *tech the House itself had, in the first itistaecii, nominated by ballot. It was singular. that toe Fl weir le - Baronet should consider such ien disre spectful, and then name the Commu ter :eire.eir. In his (Mr. Betburst's) opinion, great advantages wield be obtained by referring the subject to the ((modera tion of the Committee, b) winch it had been'. bisti gated, as they were better acquainted wits theta: t e and could more accurately estimate the true state or dimes. Nor could it be supposed that they would be erejs diced on the slibjeci. On e contrary, those Mem bers of the Committee who might be induced to think that their former opinion was founded upon errone ous grounds would have an opportunity of correct ing that opinion ; while, on the other hind, ihoce who thought that what had occurred since the Report of the Committee, confirmed their opini in, wiuld have no hesitation in declaring so. The Committee were not called upon to pronounce any rpiwuu with respect to the ulterior measures that Pero event might chink it expedient to auopt ; but merely ei in quire into the facts submitted to there, waft a view to eupress their ojiiniini s as to the ty.l:tit.g :tale of the 'country. The H onourable 1.. d thoe:f::t proper to challenge the appondue ut tif Lis Dsi.jesty's Ministers on the Jury, and then very inconsistently named two of his Right Honourable C hi a v ues He deeied the validity tit ihe H nourable olJ jeetion. Jurors were chal:teged bi dUie tt was sup posed that they had heard bet one side of the t . But what was the case in the presAit hex? Ministers had seen all the papers. They s ere n in duty to see them before the) presented e ern :)e House. They were secret papers only to those vii.o were not Members cl Government. Kuow:ag, there fore, the whole case, they could no more be eel) srd to be biassed or. the subject than any other elei..Vers of the Committee, after they had acquired as t3;ttii• sive a knowledge of the subject. Mr. BRAND contended that this was a If 'Oft im portant question, being nothing more nor whether or not it was proper to suspend ~o r and whether the people or England were or ere not justly liable to the charge of ene leonine it"' sonable intentions aga'nst the Constitu.ion ? It tv , . indispensible, therefore, that the Commuter s housl be constituted in such a manner as t v so , sty t!le people that its investigations would be The question was this.. Ministers imAgineJ they ::s.: in their hands evidence of treason .bie practices per 'fading the whole country ; they accused the peviNe of Eliglaod, who joined issue with theiii—(llear.) -- By what Jury was the cause to be trieu ? the Committee on the former occasion been appu 'lied is a manner satistactory to the pehple of England? If any one were asked this question out of doors, the answer was in the negative. No nomination by Mi nisters could be satisfactory. Let a Committee be fairly appointed ; let name by name be inv.:twat:li and do not let lists written by Ministers ne beide about for the purpose of being eleced in tlx gf asses upon the table. flie Houourable B toilet's at...:1-* ment with respect . to the natural tendency of i f ie Members of the former Committee to 2 bias on i;,e