Star. — London, England, 1810-05-26 00:00:00

pose that a dissenter could be as much ; beyondthe arrangement already stated. He, Mr. Pitt, t h e Protestant Church as one.of tht same -and Lord Cornviallis, hat:sarong desire that what wa s, therefore, to be considered,whethers, was or might be done, should not seem to grow from. Church was sufficiently strong to contend t any Omit)** engagement. He did not now mean with the Catholic, but also with the Protes. :-that there was nothing to give, expectation ; on the sters ? His feeling was, even if the Cathie- . contrary, be apprehended that impressions might have reconcile themselves to give the pledge re- •, been created from extraneous circumstances, .but po t hem, - a great advantage would thence be sitively not from any promise. As far as his ano the State. It was his opinion at the Union, Mr. Pitt's language went, -it was distincly reverse to.I privileges should be given to the Catholics a promise, and went only to say that measures might ,id W ith security, but never as a simple afterwarits result from the Legislature ; if any of the , The Right Hon. Baronet, in quoting leading Catholics had it in his power to prove this s p e ech on that occasion, had passed over;,hi statement false, he would do in a great favour by remarkable expression. He never pledged . coming forward. If ant part of the Catholics drew 1 to follow any particular line of conduct. a favaitableaspect from any of the discussions on the were , .. Whatever course may be pursued, Union, there were many - others who did the reverse. will prove a blessing to all parties, and Or In corroboration of these statement's he begged the legislature will be in a condition in which House to recollect the correspondence between his late - grant or refuse with greater safety."— Right Hononrible Friend and the Irish Government. thus, he pledged Government to adopt no ; Orfthesinesubjecthe held inhishand a memorandum !astire, the course to be pursued was an ' of Lord Conivrallies, which he then read. He trusted ideration. The Catholic hierarchy had more the House would perceive that he' did not go from his than any other dissenting hierarchy. It duty in the explanation of facts. Whatever the discus. be separated from foreign influence, and , sioti might be hereafter,. he hoped there would not be i nected with Government at home. As long -, introduced a spirit of acrimony. He would vote now ' was a Catholic country , it would yindicate preCisely as he had done before on the same questions of its clergy against the See of Rome...-. Iliut it would 'be chiefly on the grounds that he did not cries which were most bigotted to the Ca-- feel, from the present circumstances of the country, this th were always alarmed at the form of au- • to be a proper time for the Catholics to introduce j r , Spain they went so far in precaution as 1 their claims, although he would freely admit them, to intercourse with tilic See of Rome, nor t provided they were to make concessions consistent subject even to its controul or inspection. 1 with the faith and purity of their church. If he was la every thing was under the lemporalautho. ; to have advised them, he would not have persuaded France the Papal power hadtms more to do 1 them to bring their question forward at any period Ippointeient of ita Bishops than it has to do I since the Union took place. Nothing he recommen- Protestant clergy here. This latter principle ; ded more than the temperate manner in which it had limited to Catholic countries ; in Prussia I been brought forward by the Right Honourable Gen ie the Bishops were always appointed by the 1 tleman, However, he was of opinion, that the Ca ts. It cannot be stated, from the constant tholic discussion had rather diminished than increased of the Catholic Church, that such contrail .the number of its friends ' • the cause had suffered.— ;gatived. He apprehended that th e Catholics , , C o u ld an y Committee be more awkwardly situated present case, pressed their claims on the Legis- :than that which is called on for a discussion on a • - their proper situations. The Catholic church qnestion without any frained plan ? He would not tertu gone on witholit any sacrifice of its dde- tcOnceive any thing •sd nugatory and so mischievous. 1799. Lord Cornwallis communicated the With respect to the interest itself, nothing could throw ,ernment had formed with respect to the Ca.' it at so immeasurable a distance. He had the im 'shops ; the arrangelnent stood on the diffe- pression that their claims might be complied with, mds of the political part of the question.— consistent with Protestant safety, if connected with' . use was aware, that all those who disap- the necessary safeguards.. Since the Union he had f this planelooked to that only ivhich would observed in the Protestants a reluctance to the mea- Clergy in a situation beyond all corn- ` sure : he was satisfied the Roman Catholics might they were in a state of the most abject expect every thing from the liberality of the Protes. yet they would not give way to the tent mind. Bigotry would exist in all religions, yet A the people. He wag convinced they were he was confident the Protestants were a most liberal of discharging the highest services, and he and a most enlightened body, and would grant the their irrangemeat would be a measure cal- claims of their Catholic countrymen, if fairly grout). to ells' the differences of the country. He ded. He felt it his duty to give the same vote. it would he -injurious to the Crown to have Sir J. C. HIPPESLEY made a few observations influence over their Clergy ; Wit even had, it in explanation. . iossible to (Leila but, from the appearance of Mr. LAMB did not know if this was the best time IL a nces alone, it would be const a ntly laid open for answering the Catholic claims, he believed if it insinuations: One'part of the arrangemen I was delayed any longer it would be the destruction of dby Government was con fi ned simply to the elle country. He asked a learned Judge and the ,of being infOrmed who the Titular ,Dishap University of Oxford, is it fitting to come forward and be, that itonight'have it in its power- to make talk of defences and dangers without explaining the osonable objection; 'He conceived it 'would grounds? The question is, whether there is not ari dly satisfy the feelings both of the State and ger in the existence of the religion, or whether its re. :ountry, if Ireland knew that its Bishops re stnctions shall be removed ? He begged-the House ',he sanction of the Protestant Government.e.- to'sympathise with Ireland, to put themselves in the principle there could be no Objection to its place of Irishmen, and recollect that a Clergy here- He assured the'HOuse that ;it avas not the tical in the eyes of the people had been put in posses ion of the Clergy to run before the Government sion, in this the country acquiesced ; who then can I measure; they did not* appear at 'all jealous call them a stiff-necked generation ? Consider they power of the State, nor consider it to be incoe. sacri fi ced every thing dear to a high souled and high with the tenets of their Church. This circom- spirited people, and ought not we to make some se : was but a small branch' of the intended sys- crifices in return ? He then adverted to the present the detail would nor be entered into until it had state of the Continent, which moved with all the re dolly approVed of by'the Goiernment and by gtilarity of a machine, under the impulse of One man, jesty, and brought forward in ha proper shape. a visitation of Pitovineatce on the earth. He did not ;ver commuuieatiop there !night be with the speak for popularity's sake but for his country, for his Rome, it should be Made with the knowledge family, apd for his existence ; the whole ground of rernment avid passed wider its eye, in order. his oppesitioa to Ministers was, that they seemed to' iffy improper attempt Might 'be prevented.—s have pledged themselves not to take measures for the irovisions of the arrangentent were not new or conciliation of the Irish Catholics. ,or inconsistent ; other sects hid been simi. Sir WILLLIM SCOTT made some explanation, idowed; in Ireland the disienters had received but in a tone inaudible to the Gallery. iwtneut, which 'tended to ' the' increase of that General MATTHEW observed, that this was not However, he did not quite approve of the only the Catholic but the Protestant cause; it em- Ace. The arrangement *intended was of a simi- braced not only the interest of Ireland, but of Eng tture to that Made with respect to the Roman land, and the world at large. He then made extracts' olic Clergy orScotland, which extended to the from Lord Mountjoy's narrative of Ireland in the vment of schoOli, 'arid fOr which the See of time of Queen Elizabeth, exhibiting a variety of expressed great grafit ode and approbation.— enormities ; the practices, he said, of 1798 were !ope of that ,slay was not jealcitis ;lit knew that equally barbarous ; in Dublin he was an eye-witness part of the Spiritual *a s nettrAarily intertivovett to many an industrious min, taken from the bosom the Temperal qoverinieht.'' The Catholics of of his family, and without trial, hurried to the Royal ad arc at yieiant . in a - greater dependence on Exchange, the Castle-yard, and Beresford's Riding- See of Rome than any other Catholic Country:— house, where he was tied up, and flogged till he con `-lonourible 'Baronet (girl. C. Hippesley) sta- fessed crimes of which he was not guilty. He has rat an ,Ireland,,erceot six dioceses, received the seen lying in the ditches of the country fathers and :il of Trent. He Understood there were only sons butchered, wives and daughters defiled and pol rhich,did not ;.iii fact,the•Whole country consi. luted by English fencibles and German mercenaries. its Church governed by the Council of Trent, a Mr. Pitt saw that the system of coercion had failed, :il driven thither Ville temporal power, intim- and recommended Catholic Emancipation. The Ho sale-mice of enc r oachments, ibitreluetantly acceded nourable General recommended to the Hotise to ac the Pope. All its' arrangements augmented cede to the proposition for going into 'a Committee, tuthority of the See of Rome ;it was composed of as the mil ' means of. saving Ireland. If it was not Jain Bishops, and ended without accomplishing its acceded to, :he foretold that this country would have irposes, with a direct reservation however of all the to lament the refusal ; for, in the event of the subju of the See of Rome. ' This Cotmcil was ever gallon of Spain by the Emperor of France, the ports ignized by the Gallican Church iit never receiv- of that country would be in possession of that Power, , is tenets, as they tended' to injure its' libertiet —i and the passage from thence to Ireland being so short, Catholics of Ireland, hoviever, consider its.regu4 : the conquest, in case of invasion, must follow. Hay- Is as a code. He was aware of the notion, that ing made some observations upon the general con mischiefs would arise from episcopacy existing duct of the Government with regard to Ireland, and the Catholics of Ireland. He thought it would instanced- the authorities of Mr. Pitt, of Mr. Fox, a the people more innocents and less detrimental and of Mr. Burke, for the necessity of Catholic Eman the Protestant Church. If there is a great body cipation, he concluded with_s2pporting the motion. atholic interest, the great question is how it can Lord Viscount JOSCELYN was aware of the dif ;overned with safety ? He did not wish that it , ficulty of forming a Correct .opinion on the subject ; ild exist at all ; as every danger arises from dis. i but, at the same time, he was obliged to differ with -ing interests, if so, the great object is, to separate i the Right Honourable. Mover. He thought that con .from foreign authority. He did not with that the i ciliation was necessary ;.but there *Ss no bar pro= name of the Catholic Bishops should class with that ' vided in the present state of things to secure the Ca. the Established Church. Episcopacy, he thought, tholics against the power s sof France,. and therefore fight as well exist in the Catholic Church of Ireland , concession on their part was, desirable. Unless the in the P res by ter i an o f Scotland. (Hear, hear.)— I King had the Veto, or power of appolMing such 'jog thus far entered into explanation, he wished I Bishops as to him might seem proper, there was, in to make a few observations on whet degree of , his opinion, an insurmountable theta& in complying oderstanding th er e was respecting the Union, and i with their demands. Supposing the measure was it degree of expectation was held out. He did adopted, still lie thought no niattrialbenefit would be wish that Ireland should have the impression of I produced by it. The disease would remain—a disease fig unfairly dealt with. If there had been a real I which -could not be eradicated until the - men of pro .sappointment, he .slid not deserve the name of a Om in Ireland felt: the:wads 4*, and set an Statesman or an honest, man. At the time of the - example to the - people nf that ciiiitstrr, by living.. on 'Tnion, there was no promise made to the Catholies l their mites. • Wted to, 'Gott, be ' °Mewed, that' . some mots could be devised to compel absentees to return; to forbid„thet ruinous and destructive emi gration which was the sole cause °tall the real grity; anees of which Ireland complained. Mr. SHAW' wished to allow the Catholics the full enjoyment of all their rights. - Muteal" concessions were necessary ; the Catholics were sloW at conceding. He was therefore against going into the Committee. Mr. Secretary RYDER, though he was not dis posed to offer many observations, could not let the debate pass over without stating the ground of objec tion' which he had to the proposition of the Right Honourable Gentleman. It would be unnecessary for him to dwell much at length on the arguments adduced by the Right Honourable Gentleman when he brought his motion forward. • The most zealous advocates of the Catholics' cause had formerly stated that concessions would be made which Iti!erwards; as it turned out, the Catholics were not disposed to make. That was the short ground on which the motion had, in a former Session, been resisted, and that was the ground upon which he should now vote against it.— The House would see the extraordinary situation in which they were placed, in consequence of what the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Ponsonby) two years since had stated on the subject. That Right Honourable Gentleman had stated, that he was au thorized to declare, on the part of the Catholics, that they were ready to give his Majesty a negative in the nomination of Bishops, provided their claims were admitted, and they were allowed equal participation with their Protestant brethren. When the Right Hon. Gentleman wasquestioned asto the source from whence he derived his authority, he replied, from Dr. Milner, the accredited agent of the Catholics in England. It was on that concession that Parliament was disposed to attend to the petitions ; but what followed that declaration ? In a few months afterward., a meeting of the Roman Catholic Bishops was held, at which they came to a resolution, directly and positively stating, that they never should concede to the Crown the power of nominating their Bishops.— Dr. Milner had subsequently published several pam phlets denying that he had ever warranted such a proposal to be made. This was not all ; for after the debates on this subject, what was the information' which the public had subsequently received? Lord Grenville had stated, that he had received the most flittering acknowledgments from the body of Catho lics for the exertions he had made in their behalf ; and he stated, that he had the same authority for the proposition. Now it appeared very singular, the proposal having been made in this House and else where, that the same Dr. Milner should in a publica tion declare, " That he would lose the last drop of his blood before he would consent to a proposition not sanctioned by the general body of the Catholics." The House and the Public had not yet been informed how the delusion was practised. The Right Hon. Gentleman bad not condescended to explain, but had passed it over altogether. He was happy to have the opportunity of making these observations in the presence of the Right Honourable Gentleman, be. cause he trusted the explanation would now come.— He had no wish to impute to the Right Honourable Gentleman any motive which be would not disavow, but was ready to believe that be might have been de ceived. At. the same time, it was strange that such proposition having been made (which must have ori ginated in misunderstanding) the misunderstand. ing should not, between enlightened men, have been explained. His Majesty's Government were exposed to all the attacks of the friends of the Ca tholic cause, were charged with intolerance and bigotry for not complying with their demands, when, in point of fact, they knew there was a decided and insurmountable objection to giving the ve:o. It was a duty which he owed to himself to get up and ex plain. As to the question at present under discus sion, he would quote from a publication of Lord Grenville's, just before the meeting of Parliament, which was in the hands of every man, and cDntained opinions concurrent with his own. It would be re collected that this publication came from a man of distinguished rank, of Ire it literary attainment, and of unquestionable ability ; it was circulated too at a peculiar time, when an idea had gone forth among that Noble Lord's friends, that he was to be placed at the head of the Government. It therefore must be considered as the political creed of the great Leader of the Right Hon Gentleman's patty. The Right Hon. Secretary then read an extract trom the pamphlet, in which the author states, " that the ques tion was not a single nor unconnected one ; much was to be done for the establishment of the mutual rights of both religions in point of concession, that having pointed out the necessity of conceding the veto, but ' that being denied, he saw much of unexampled em• barrassment and difficulty in the question, connected as it was with England, his deliberate opinion was. that great and permanent obstacles would arise to the accomplishment eif the object." That was the opinion of Lord Grenville, and, said the Right Hon. Gentleman, is my opinion, under these circumstances, I cannot vote for the motion of the Right Hon. Gen tleman. On these grounds, not wishing to sport with *the feelings of the Catholics, he could not con sent to raise hopes and expectations which could never be realized. Lord DURSLEY was instructed on the part of a large portion of the Ptotestant rreeholders of the ex tensive and populous county which he represented, to state, that they wished their Catholic fellow-subjects to share in common with them, the same rights, pri vileges, and immunities. Mr. PONSONBY, in a very argumentative speech which was frequently interrupted by loud bursts of applause, contended in favour of the cla ims of the Roman Catholics of Ireland. It was objected to the Roman Catholics, tlat they would not give up the This he did not wholly believe • but were the Right Hon. Gentlemen opp osite prepa red to say, that if they would abandon this, they were ready to grant them their claims ? Were they ready or willing to -reytnto a Committee to adjust those c l a ims, or were not, on the contrary, prepared to oppose every measure of adjuutment, and to prevent every arrange ' ment that mt lead to reconciliation ? The mot i o n went only s oar as to have a Committee, and every inn n disposed to meet the claimants half way Would accede to the proposition. Was it to be expected that all the voncesslon should be made on the part of the Roman Catholics , and was the Government of this country to accede nothing ? It was necessary there should be a disposition to mutual concession, and in tiOlk 11% the pre6ent Goa -1 vaia *looked for that diAposi . sterament. He contended that the concess of the Pee was made on the part of the Roman Cath•lics, and it eteneigedforhis Majesty's Ministere to say if:hee would ccedelrlteclaims reqrsPar on such e eetweesion ? litk knew they were indisposed to gr int those cl :ims enemy grounds ; and all that had hitherto been said, tended only to confirm him in this opiniOn. It was theieler the utmostsophistry, and a deception on ;he public to contend aiat they wenlif not give up the vete. . If they arterd that the Roman Catleics Would give up nothing, the only mode of ascertiuning this was- to go into the' Committe e , ),vhieh w as n ot narrowing the grounds of Ministers, nor estedeing them to any thing. It did not fitiloW that:by Oink into the Committee they were to give up the whole to the Roman Catholics. The. Committee was a middle course that could not be rejected by any man that was unprejudiced. He argsred the necessity of making some concession to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, from the present state of Euroee. Bonaparte was one of those persons that seemed employed by Nowise-we to effect great revolutions. They ought not to deceive themselves; he was onnof the greatest personages in modern times, and commanded a pen. ple not less ambitious, nor less vicious than himself. Were they then to give up to his ambitious view,* four-fifths of the people of Ireland, by refusing to grant them the just claims they required ? (ifear, hear.) They ought net to believe that he dragged a reluctant army into the field, and Fiance very ate t knew that if she could put down England she would be mistress of the world, and one of the most likely means of doing so was to deprive them of Ireland.-- It was too remote, therefore, from the policy' f this country to say, that they shouldgrlnt the Roman Catholics nothing till they ascertained the amount of their claims. A conciliatory system was required, and to spew the disposition of this country towards such a syetem,it waanecess4ry theysinukigointoaComrnitteei It was for the British legislature,he contended, to make the first advance, and if the Roman Catholics were found uncharitable, the blame would then be theirs. He argued, that. the Mee were a people that never could be borne down by oppression, and that the only secure way of governing them was by their affections (Hear, hear.) It -clang bad never yet obtained any thing from this country, and the hopes they had been Bled to entertain from the Union had hitherto been dis. appointed. It was time some of those hopes should be realized, and he appealed to the Noble Lerl who had spoken (Castlereagh), if any of the great pro mises he had held out as italucements to the Union had been fulfilled. Ireland had never yet obtained any thing but from the embarrassment of England ; it was therefore high time to spew that this country was disposed to do justice from inclination, as well as necessity. He concluded by recommending, in the strongest terms, a Committee, and by calling on the House to interfere, as they did at the end of the American war, to the relief and salvation of the country. The CHANC7T.LOR of the EXCHEQUER, in a very animated speech, replied to the Right Hon. Gentleman, and contendei, that it was only fair they should know all that was claimed by the Roman Ca. tholics of Ireland. They wished certain concessions to be made to them, but they would not tell the con ditions on which they wished these concessions to be made. These Gentlemen wished to get into the Com mittee, but would not tellzke reason why ; and why should they go into a Committee, unless to find the means of implementing the conditions required ? The Roman Catholics, he contended, were not in a sitna. Lion to bargain for themselves. They could not act without the consent of the Pope, nor adhere to any engagements unless they obtained his sanction. It' satisfaction was. to be given them, it was necessary they should receive every thing they demanded, and he would leave it fo'any mina to judge how far such a concession would be censis:ent either with the spirit or safety of the Constitution. Iftheeeiveee lei give the people of Ireland full satisfaction, they mint sur render to them the Chinch, and all the privileges which the Church enjoyed. If they could not - thus far satisfy them, they would render them WY . the more dissatisfied. He contended that it would therefore be idle and fruitless to go into a Committee-on the subject. Mr. WHITBREAD supported the dal* of the Roman Catholics, and judged of the sentiments of the Right Honourable Gentleman not so much from ?ghat he had said now, as from his former speeches: If that Right Honourable Gentlemen had never before opposed the Roman Catholic claims, they might have believed him sincere in declaring that the Catholics had not expressed their determination with respect to the Veto. His language now was, as if for the first time, I can grant you nothing—you are persons I cannot trust. The Roman Catholics, he contended, did not wish the Church surrendered to them : they wished only to be put on a footing with the Church. He made some remarks on the absentees of Ireland, as adding still more to their discontent, and depreca ted the bigotry of the University of Oxford, and the narrow policy preserved by this country with regard to the Catholic Question. When the Catholic Bi shops in 1799 offered to vote, the country refused to accede to it ; and now Ministers pretended they could grant nothing, because that Veto was not offered as aa, primary condition. He argued that Government had repeatedly, and on some very important occasions, employed Roman Catholics, and now they pretended that no confidence was to be reposed in them. He was afraid that no concessions whatever on the part of the Rornaa Catholics would satisfy the present Mi. nisters. The Honourable Member concluded by say ing, it would be the greatest injustice, if tie House did not agree with the motion. Mr. CANNING opposed the motion. He was con vinced that the public mind was not prepared at this time to agree to the Catholic claims. When a proper opportunity arrived for receiving their Petition, he was of opinion, the question ought to be brought forward. Mr. HERBERT strongly supported the motion. Mr. HUTCHINSON observed, that four Irish Members only had spoken on the qhestion. There were other Gentlemen who had a desire to speak, and the importance of the subject rendered it necessary to adjourn the debate. Mr. SHERIDAN was of opinion I tOltetbe House ought to adjourn, and after some observatiens friam Mr. Hp/timer and Sir JoHN NEWPORT, during which there was a loud cry of Go on, Mr. Hurcinwsore moved to adjourn. The question was then carried, and the debase was adjourned to Friday next. The adjournment took place at Four o'c" to suPP 4 to tl ;: , 31 . It w r oor t h e CI „ t onlY , a t DiFsent e re( c..vie j o f the e r ived to till ,' at those Pr "they !maid nos sion. tr . pitt's spy e most rem vern ment is vas wo union wi imper i a l leg msY n g.' ;peak' g ific Incas ter o nside! l ar ence the crtz i kt to be -ever tonne IrtiAnd the rights_, (4 The tutlittn t tholic faith v, t hority; m to allow no were t hey su In Austria e •itr. In Fr; with the API with the Prc LIS not lin d Rustia onarchs. of t be negat ia the preset 'dare in the .td hi th ert t t r ine. I ,an Graver t holic Bibb( rat oun d The I I9us, F i)ved of ti pace the petition ; tl poverty, y feelings of capable of thought the ;dated to thought it a direct in! was Halloos! cireumitan to unjust it Ingested tinessity o was to be, my ream powerfull) of the Cot ceived the On that p claims. intention in this m of the pa sistent tv ▪ stance w • tem ; the been wits his Majes r Whatevet t See of RC of Glover • that ever] ✓ The prow T forekut r.IT ende i• abignie ; - body. } measure.st lap natur Catholic r. endowme Rome ex is The Pop n, great par xt with the to ,Ireland en the See c n- The Hot he teds ;that ak Council me two whit dets.its Council sequence no to by thi att the auth cr- Italian I i Purpose! ion rights of eo- recogni; to Pd its to the The c a of f.rions ; 7,reat IG ia the le make tl pa. to the] ich of Cath be govt should dt - seating ,tit - it from ul'• Battle ( of the rig : might be as in t 1 • Havir. Chi now tc oli tinders what g h • not wi being disap i States Uuiot 4 C,A I.LOC