Star. — London, England, 1808-05-26 00:00:00

F' t h e Noble Lord would make a triumphant 3''‘' „ n o the occasion which the course of de. gtech *rreply to. The Gentle weld not a' o de -4 e ot h e r side of the House might, however, !m om a astand the possibility-of their being ~, a , t oi l . 4L... d e precating such a discussion. Had they that, when they mere in office, although 1 • eg f. rsard some long agitated questions, alluded probably to the Slave Trade and the s y6te m] and supported them with all the no t improperly used, of their official situa • t hey did at that time feel that there were Icient to prevent them bringing forward i f If one were to judge from their cla •nent, one would suppose that they thought ounobjectionable thatthere was not a day to be lost, and yet they did not appear to they were in office—.-[Hear ! hear /]— not suppose it was from any contemptible ', o , mot ives, but he would give them the 0 supposing that they saw fair and statesman ns for not wishing then to bring f orwar d t h e They should therefore notbe much surprized imilar objections at the present moment, and shortly why he wished the discussion to soon as possible, and to close in that spirit tion which had been so strongly recommen the Right Honourable Gentleman who forward the motion, and who himself gave an example of that moderation which he recommended.. He must agree with that Right entleman in all the abstract principles had laid down, of the necessity ofcivil.con , u nion, and more particularly in the present J a of the country and the circumstances of the set he could not agree with him entirely as to ' result of those principles. That it would v, and that it was desirable at all times, to practical unanimity, was a question that could doubt. It was much to be deplored, a division and animosities subsistedon religi awls, which ought not to have produced di ir animosities among any men of common aid cries bf hear I hear !]. What he had :d was doubtless true in theory and philoso a history chewed a melancholy proof of the icabffity of carrying this theory altogether ion. • • He concurred most heartily in wishing religious animosities might soon be healed - , deploring their existence ; but yet he could not eyes against the practical effects of them. He t, in point of fact, they did exist; and he whether they, were to be healed by speeches, as eloquent speeches as the house had just from the Right Honourable Gentleman who ' the motion. He, therefore, deprecated a which, he was convinced, could not lead :deal . good, and which, if it were not con that temper andmoderation recommended Rikht HonourableGentleman , would probab l y moteinjury than service to the cause which - it was atendedm support.. The manner, however, in which de Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. GRATTAN) height forward the claim, certainly could do the ruse no injury. The principles which he had utter ed were highly becoming his situation, 'the country ' which had given him birth, and of which he had been so long an ornament , and e task which he had un dertaken. Et was convinced, however, that the ad vice which he had given to the Gentlemen of Ire land, and which he would, no doubt, confirm by his own example, would do more practical good n the conciliation of the people of that country, than any legislative enactment which could be made. Ile, for his part, could net see that the cause had acquired any additional weight by any thing that had &aimed since, die last time it was brought for ward. There was no more probability now than there was then of any practical good resulting from the dis cussion. He believed the Right Honourable Gentle man himself would rather that the measure should be rr the present withheld, provided that, in the with ading it, there should be no irritating hnguage or ratinients expressed, than that it should be torn sum an unwilling Parliament, and a reluctant pc. pie. (Loud tries of hear ! hear !) The Right Honourable Gentleman knew well that there was a strong public aliment in this country against the measure. He would not say whether this sentiment was founded in mute, or in error and prejudice. If it was founded in reason, it could not be expected that it should be mnbated by legislative enactments ; and even if it was handed in prejudice and error, the Right Honourable Gentleman was so enlightened a Statesman, as to hoe that prejudice was seldom destroyed by coer cion, and that it might he as unfair to apply coercion to the prejudices of the one side, as to apply the penal laws•tothe prejudices of the other. If the Right Hon. Gentleman was really so sanguine as to hope by Ineloquence to controul the vote of that House, yet Ie must foci that it was a *question of great difficulty, 'IA of some danger. He deplored, as much as the Right Honourable Gentleman, any retrospect on past Ilrcea ( Loud cries of hear! hear ! ) He again heard the Noble Lord loud in the cry, and he anticipated , from him a most eloquent speech. He would, how ever, recommend to him to follow the example of the Right Honourable Gentleman, although he could not expect his recommendation would have much weight, and thought lie already saw that it was the intension of the Gentlemen on the other side, to mix considerations altogether cf a personal nature, with their arguments on the present question tand, among °tiler reasons, he had wished to have spoken later in the debate, for the purpose of answering those ohjec !lora which he already anticipated. Whatever might l'' the comparative merits of the speech of th e Ri g ht nonourable Gentleman, who was the leader in this Cause, and those who were to follow him, still he , most observe that the claim had been stated m a runner that coald not do it any injury, and which he thought might do it material service. It was the mode that had been taken by him, and not that which wined likely to be adopted by other Gentlemen, that would do most real service to the cause. He must say, that he saw serious obstacles and objections to !IF measure at the .present period, and so did the Right Honourable Gentleman who brought it for ward. He appeared to despair of success, and there lore took a second course--that of giving advice and admenition to the Gentlemen of Ireland. His advice and adm on i t i on was , un d ou btedly, of the highest y Itie and importance • and he had no doubt , but th at if it wa s f o ll owed, it ;mild produce more real good than even the penal statutes now in force. If, how ever, the obstacles to the petition were insurmounta- der v ti abk f or d e re that, t i o d bring f": Ir. C. alluded_ psi System., not inip 26. yet t h e y d s ufficient " ? qt--• at poSeilt, o lure 501111 N h ou r to be • go when th • would not so 'oe.serving ' of supposi l oons for r otiou. T he p re saw similar lit sta r e d shor as s oon as jooderation w 0 by the R tight forwar tocellent an e recommend A o orable Gei • ..1 1 g had la cor d end oion , ituatisi of the war; b u t he co r sctical re 1140' now ' now Pra' ogi n could is great divra •questions , jjoos or Anil ye . {Loud jot stated was 0 7 ; but histc o practeabilit action. ' 1 those reliF in dtplorit on his eyes o that, in p . wheth by as elo , , from t inoduced the emission, wh • sly practice ediith th y the Rij u ht do more-m.lw ble; or if they could not be surmounted without objet- mon sense who could compere that d" lvi dons greater then any pra c ti ca l goo d eillich could now the danger of a French army in Irelanelse ger onitleine t i be derived from tke measure, he thought the Right with an ignorant and dissatisfied population ? Al- Hon. Gentleman would do well to return the petition though some Heinourable and Learned Members, to those from whom he received it ; and he oceilil now who might understand their particular profession well, return it unsullied with any improper observation, but who were utterly ignorant of principles of general and certainly without any injury having been sustain- policy, had talked much of the necessary connection ed by the cause from the manner in which it was between Church and State, it would not be In theft brought forward. The cause of his clients was cer- power to point out how the Church WAS to be sop tainly not deteriorated in his hands ; and if the exam- ported, if the State was taken away from it, It ap ple of the Right Hon. Gentleman were followed by peered to him, however, that if the State edeld suf his friends, the discussion, if it did no good, would fer any thing through the wound that it was appro . certa . ttly do no mischief. Although he felt it his duty hended the Church might receive, it was at least a on the present occasion to vote against the motion, very slow and lingering process ; and when a danger yet he hoped tke Right Hon. Gentleman would not was very remote, he might allaw himself the cons°. suppose him actuated by any spirit of illiberality, or lation of supposing that it miiht possibly never take that he did not sincerely wish the question to remain place. The danger, on the other hand, was so great as it is now, and without prejudice to a future and and so immediate, that he would venture to say, it more favourable opportunity. He gave the Right would in time overbear all opposition ; and above Hone Gentleman edit for having stirred a danger- all , that opposition which the Rig ht Ho n . Secretar y ous question in a aienner as little dangerous as possi- had now made, on the mere ground of expediency ble, and concluded by deprecating a protracted dis- and practicability. cussion. Lord POLLINGTON said he could not give his Mr. WINDHAM began by observing, that Lord assent to the proposition which had been brought Chesterfield, in one of his lessons to his son, says, that forward. He was well aware of the necessity of con the opening of the celebrated play of Addison's Cato, ciliating Ireland, by every practicable means ; but " The dawn is overcast, the morning lours, he thought the present measure was at the present " And heavily in clouds brings on the day," time a most obnoxious one to the people of this CQUII. was, after all, nothing more than the information try, and he deprecated the discussion. which the people of this metropolis are in the daily Lord MILTON 'differed most entirely from the habit of hearing from an old watchman, o It's past Right Hon. Secretary, who thought all discussion of four o'clock, and a cloudy morning." (Aloud laugh.) the subject improper. For his part, he was convinced This sentiment, however, when put in a poetical dress, that whatever might be the vote of the House upon had been much admired. The speech which he had that niht, great good would result from the discus just heard from the Right Honourable Secreta r y ( Mr. sion. -Ie believed, and indeed he had manyoppor- Canning) put him very much in mind of that obser- tunities of knowing, that the last discussion had done vation of Lord Chesterfield ; for, from the beginning a great deal to familiarize the minds of the people of of it to the end, he could find nothing in it but that this country to the measure, and to remove the preju the discussion was very disagreeable to the Right dice which existed against giving the Catholics of Hon. Secretary and his friends, but more particularly Ireland their rights, which they so justly claimed. A to the Right Hon. Secretary. The Right Hon. Gen- good deal had been said of certain laws of our ances tieman had more particularly deprecated ally mixture tors, as if they were absolutely immutable • and it was of personal animosity in the debate : he ( of all the endeavoured to identify the glorious Revolution with Members in the House) who was most in the habit of those odious doctrines of exclusion and proscription, enlivening his speeches by personalities, now depre- which some persons were still found to advocate. He cated any thing of personal animosity being intro- hoped they would never be identified ; for if they were, duced ; and yet, although he so strongly recommen- he should feel that he had been mistaken in that ad ded to the house the example of moderation of the miration which he had hitherto felt for that Revolu- Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Grattan) who intro don. It should be recollected that the test laws, duced the business, yet he by no means chose himself which some people identified with the Revolution, to follow that example, which he so strongly and pro- were in fact previous to it, and were caused by the perly recommended to others. He agreed however dangerous political principles of the House of Stuart with the Right Honourable Secretary, in his lamenta. in that day. He must confess that the object of them tion of the existence of religious discords and animo- was in some degree to keep down Catholicism ; but sities ; but the question now was, when such aniino- it was in a much greater degree to guard the nation sities were acknowledged to exist, what was to be done from the tyranny that it had just reason to apprehend with them ? If the object was either to satisfy or to from the political principles of the Duke of York, allay them, would it be said that the best way of sa- who was afterwards King James the Second. If it tisfying the Catholic feeling would be, not only to was allowed by every body that these causes no longer refuse them all they ask, but even not to allow them existed, nor any thing like them, the policy of adher the satisfaction of a discussion on their petition ? The ing to the system was by no means evident. The Right Hon. Secretary might have some personal ma- Right Hon. 'Secretary seemed to think that it could sons for wishing to avoid a discussion. As he had not be disputed, that the majority had a right to im always, from his first outset in political life, been a pose disabilities upon the minority. This was a doc declared friend to the Catholic claims, it was now a trine he could by no means subscribe to, andhe thought matter of some curiosity to see how he could resist there could be no such right, except in cases of great this motions without forfeiting all claims to consis- and imminent danger ; and no such imminent danger tency in political conduct. He was, however, a lit- could be urged at present in removing the disabilities tae surprised at the Right Hon. Gentleman talking on the Catholics of Ireland. If there were great dis now of the vox populi upon this occasion, as if he really contents in Ireland, it should be an important object believe I it was always tantamont to the vox Dei. to Government to take care that their discontents The Right Hon. Secretary had paid the highest come should not ripen into serious disaffection. mendations to the temper and moderation with which Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD feared that it the Righs Hon. Gentleman brought forward the mea would be considered.a waste of time for him to enter sure. It N't•as certainly very proper in the Right Ho- fully into the question, when no shadow of argument nourable Gentleman who brought forward the mea- had been adduced on the other side. He should, sure to urge his claim in the most conciliatory man- however, fear that it would be considered by many as ner, but it did not follow that every member who a desertion of his duty to his country, if he were not to rase to speak upon the question submitted to them express his sentiments on a matter so much connected should follow the same line. He, for his part, thought with its happiness and its security. The Right Hon. little could be done in that House on the present occa- Secretary had been obliged to admire the talents of siou by conciliation; but he thought it possible that his Right Hon. Friend r, Grattan), and had s omething might be done by inflicting on apostasy the praised the manner in whic (M h be had brought forward shame and reproachthatit merited. By so doing, certain this business, but notwithstanding his admiration, he characters would be hung in terrorem as an example found it prudent not to attempt answering his argue to others. But the Right Honourable Secretary had ments, but chose to make out his speech by anticipa. said, that his Right Honourable Friend would cer- ting what other Gentlemen might say. He did not tainly not wish to have the measure wrung from an I want the advice of the Right Hon. Secretary to know, unwilling Parliament. Certainly not ; it was the wish that it was prudent and proper to abstain from irrita of his Right Honourable Friend to make the Parlia- I ting language upon the present occasion. He knew meat a willing one. The Right Honourable Secre- that this great cause must finally succeed, and that it tare had also stated, that this question had gained no I could only be injured by violence and intemperance. If accession of strength since it was last broug ht for- hc was forced to go into any thing of an historical re ward ; but it appeared to him that the question had view of past times, it was merely because the CathOs gained a very material accession of strength. It I lics of Ireland still continued to be abused and csdunz was a question that was perpetually changing with : niated. He was as anxious for a full discussion as the changing state of the world, and by he great the Right Honourable Secretary was to avoid that progress of public opinion and public information.— discussion. He wished to know the sentiments and The cause was gaining additional strength every, the grounds upon which the different Members who hour, and there could be no doubt but that it would meant to resist the motion meant to support their op finally prevail. The fact was, that, at the first dis- position. If they were to persevere in a mys ll ter who ious cussion of the question , the p ublic in g eneral were en- ; silence, he might n that a tircly ignorant of the nature of the subject. This meant to oppose it considered it entirely with the ignorance was, however, diminishing from day to day, Right Honourable Secretary, and had not a single and would probably be s oon removed. He had no objection to offer to t he measure, but only on the desire to go into a general consideration of the ques. policy of adopting it now . instead of at a future time. tion, after the very able and luminous speech of the If this was really the sentiment of all the Gentlemen Right Honourable Gentleman who had opened it; but ' who meant to vote against it, it would be very well, he must say, that when it was considered that four and might do much good to have it known that millions of people were in Ireland in the state des- I there no longer existed any serious objection to the cribed by the petitioners, he considered that such a , measure itself. Ireland had as yet felt none of, those body, in their present state, were like a great, heavy, ' blessings in which this country prided itself. The and indigestible mass lying on the stomach of the glorious Re don ion which was had such a only fe with this mass ? Do you mean to persevere in en- in Ireland as one of the severe inflictions of Providence deavouring to wear down this body of Catholicism upon that unfortunate country. As to the Union, by the severity of Statutes and penal laws ? If that ! whatever advantages it brought to this country, no were the course Ministers intended to persevere in, ' Irishman could have supported it from anyotherhonest they could expect but little fruit from it. forky had principle, except . from the idea that measures would only to consider the effect of this system the last have been . taken . in . the Imperial Parliament to allay century. Itoad r ho at all increased the proportion of the dissatisfaction. in Ireland, and to give it peace Protestants to Catlics. They might, therefore, go and security. This was an idea which was encoura back to the Rule of Three, and calculate in what god by Mr. Pitt, who Fad much too great a mind to length of time these penal laws would destroy the Ca- stoop to the pitiful artifice of holding out such a hope, tholic religion. Instead of being at all weakened if he had not expected that it would leave been realized. or dissolved by the measures hitherto taken, it No Irishmao expected that they would derive either had, on the contrary, been fixed, confirmed, and extension of commerce or refinement of manners, or hardened. It seemed that Government, during all any other advantage from the Union with England, that time, mistook the menstruum which was to do except, as Mr. Pbeindltaangdetrooludsthtrdi,scousths i a n t measures, pa u ra re t t away Catholicism. If, then, they were to persevere width it would might . be safely discussed and conceded in the same measures, there could be no hope that Legislature, Ireland would ever be any thing hot what it is at pre- in the United Parliament." Unless this hope had sent. There was a certain portion of the community been held out, the mass of the population of Ireland, that was much afraid of the injuries which our Church the Catholics, could ;nand h . ave been induced to and State might in time receive from granting supp ort that measure but was there a man of com- coul d never have been carried through. The cases in the present peutiou ; tire ihictedt histilty of Ole minify VASA to the present situation of plesef the Revolution had nothing penal laws avid di'sabili del; and shoidd ham riaranteed Ireland formation in dug country had sir by any positive laws, but had taken part of the people before the Soy Queen Elizabeth, although she • who aimed at her throne, and France and the Catholics at 17 diligent pains to distinguish from those whose only difference nions. In the reign of Charles • laws were framed, to protect t political principles of the 1.): James the Second), and who ported by a Cabinet of Catholic a state of things totally different existed. In the reign of Que of Ireland were in a state of yet it was then, and without necessity, that those laws were tholics, in wanton and notorious of Limerick, which had been —The Houonrabla Member torical view of the situation century, in which he shewed penal laws upon the populat land were embodied and cony efforts of France would be desperate. But it was doing testants to array them against tl and tell them, in case of invasit they should hail as friends the' He adverted to the per,od wb formed ; at a time when the his power invincible; and danger had passed away, si it should not be continued. Lord CASTLER.EAG: tion to occupy at much lent, but he could not refrain from s . on his part should be construed to the Right Hon. Gentlemr tition, or to the Petitioners however, say, that on pub]: precated the present discs tending, in the present state and irritate the public min( be taken to appease it, an, might expect. It was high, to make a question at such Catholics were depressed, nests of that Constitution duty to defend? Since, ho‘ come on, he perfectly agreed able Gentleman who so opened the debate, that it temper and moderation. Mr. Pitt's ideas on this sees with the conduct of the when out of power, so disturbance by this questis. compromised and abandoned interest, but their own. he referred them to the of Bedford in Ireland, lics was constantly, " This your wishes ; direct all only ; do not now press mature, and will only in* guage and some hopes . claims were pressed upon was tffeir conduct ? Why :Won principles altogether. own contemptuous little up in their support ! It disinterested patriots should cant an abject as the retent laugh). No* what was ways acting upon stead: ( Loud cheers from the stretched their exertion: they abdicated their sit thought any further disci only be to its prejudice, deprecate it. There held out by that Government they had always denied tholics had any claim Gentleman opposite had tation of this question and of the public mind and the danger perpetuall ask, was not the danger tion great enough to call indeed the present was • magnitude ? Was not' ficient to call for every I. a protection ? What exl gross inconsistency ? much the treatment who met, from a Right HI Windham), who had natural horror of recrimii suddest fell into a total pathy, and loaded his figure during the entire nourable Gentleman, own case before he look at home before he was, as he had before such as himself and his be so treated, by those sistent—he- had set his this measure before, without any hopes of ciple he should oppose Mr. W IN DHAM, when he alluded to wished to be understood think a former decisic vent its present discus Lord H. PETTY wish of . the Right Hono' side (Mr. Canning), cussed with that tem) it had been introduceu. plied with in the quarter would leave the Her justify it to himself any notice whatever, wished to conciliate very.extraordinary sileat whe' ;her prod . , .... mintfy were b 7 no Means don of things: The princis nothing Cc/ derwith severe and the treaty of Limerick' land against theni. The te- nd not been brought about d taken possession of a great e Sovereign joined In it.. , ..15 the was resisted by a rilril tnd was supported both bt it home, yet took always iish her political enemies erence was in religions opi- arles the Second, the penal ect the country against the . Duke of York (afterwards so was surrounded and sup- holic Ministers. This was ferent froth that which now Queen Anne, the Catholics of perfect tranquillity, and out the smallest degree of were imposed upon the Ca- orious violation of the treaty seen signed by William 111. tier here took a very full his. tion of Ireland for the last red the great pressure of the ulatlon of Ireland. If Ire- conciliated, then, indeed, the le ineffectual, and her cause i doing injustice to the Pro- ainst their Catholic brethren, invasion, that the men whom Is they must fear as enemies. I when those penal laws were he Pope was flourishing, and d now when this formidable r, surely the consequences of d. .GH said it was not his inten- length the time of the House; from rising, lest a silent vote nstrued into disrespect, either .leman who presented the Pe- men themselves. He must, üblic grounds he strongly de- scussion of this questic n, as :ate of the country, to inflame ind, when every means should and prepare it for the trial it ighly impolitic and indecorous uch a crisis, whether the In It 11, or participators in the he- m which it was their imperious , however, the discussion had 'greed with the Right Honour- so powerfully and eloquently t it should be discussed with n. He here took a view of subject, and contrasted them se opposition, who, although so ready to agitate and create iuestion, yet, when in power, indoned it, not for the public . if they wanted an example, he administration of the Duke I, when the cry to the Catho- This is not a fit time to forward LI your force against the enemy ess , your claims ; you are pre- r incense." Yet after such lan- pes held out when the Catholic upon the late Ministry, what Why, they deserted their oppe- ther, and even abandoned their tle Bill, which they had patched . It was strange too that such .. should abandon it for so insigni. retention of their places ! (A vas the course of his friends, al- ady and consistent principles.— ie Opposition). They in power ions to the utmost, and when situations, they declared th:y discussion of this measure would lice, and of course they would e was no specific pledge e.rt.r overnment to the Catholics. No, (lied that constitutionally the Ca- irn whatever. An Honourable had stated as a reason for the agi- In now, that the state of affairs had was perpetually fluctuating, etually increasing ; but he would t tiger during the late Administra- i call for conciliatory measures, if ras really considered one of such \., sot the exigency in those days suf. my guard which could be supposed .t excuse could be offered for such , 3 He admired, however, very which his HonOurable Friend had Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. ad ever, before to-night, a strong recrimination, and who all on a :otal oblivion of his favourite anti- his Hon. Friend with this odious ntire of his reply. The Right Ho- in, however, ought to consider his tie attacked others ; he ought to ehe threw stones—(a laugh.) It we said, very hard that steady men i his friends (a loud laaglr) should • hose who were themselves so incon. his face against the discussion of e, as tending to create a ferment of success, and on the same prier pose it now. kM, in explanation, stated, that to the change of public opinion, he stood as declarir!s that he did not cision on this subject ought to pre- • scussion. TY was disposed to concur with the Honourable Gentleman on the other g), that this question should be dis- temper and moderation with which uced. How that wish had been cont. quarter from which it proceeded, he House to judge. But he could not elf to pass this matter over without ever. It the . Gentlemen opposite ate the population of Ireland, it was nary way to gain their object to sit preferred their claim* Whether that r