Star. — London, England, 1803-03-12 00:00:00

planation as maybe then given, ‘ l am ready totteds every objection, rather than violate that duty which prefcribes to me the impropriety of affording any explanation of matters now in di/puce betwixt the two Governments. Mr. DENT obferved, that in the late war we had upwards of 130,000 men engaged in our fea fervice. The peace enablifluitent had reduced the number to so,ooo. The Right Hon. Gentleman oppofite ( a th v e ot e e h o a f n i c o ellor of ea th vi e n E g x u e s he a q n u e i cr a ) bi had propofed snot of fro,ooo. Now he &mid propofe, that inilead of to, we fhould have..2s,ooc.,•which would give us a naval force of 75,000. This, lie fup pored, would be fully fufficient for any common ' exigency, and he would with Minifters and the I country to be fafe beyond all poffibility of doubt. As to the expreflion, GOD grant that period may r:vcr arrive I" ufed by the Right Honourable Gentleman, he thought it liable to contiderable objedion. With refped to the outcry raired again!" this armament, and the confequent effed on the public funds, in his opinion the monied men had reafon to complain, if property fell to per cent. Be had heard various reports as to the ponibility of what was the caufe of thefe difcuUions and thefe armaments. Whether the objed was Malta, or whether it was Egypt, he did not with to pry into the nature of there objects which Milliners had thought fit not to difclofe. He thought them en titled to his confidence, and gave it accordingly. There was one point, however, which he could; not help lamenting, that was, that we had now come to the eve of - war, when we had given up almon every conquers, and we had returned fere. ral thoufands of feamen to France, and, as far as he could learn, not a farthing of money had as yet been paid by their Government to ours. In the fallen conviEtion of the propriety of the mea fure, and of the jußice of its application, he thould conclude with moving the amendment he had al-, ready mentioned, namely," That inftead of t 0,000 we infer" 25,000 feamen and marines in the vote now upon the table." Mr. Fox—" I cannot help feeling Come degree of fuprife at the language which my Hon. Friend who began the difcuffion, and the Right Hon. Gentleman over the way have tired, refpeding the converfation which took place on the motion for the Addrefs, on which the prefent proportion is founded. I myfclf certainly began that JP:cotton, but I do not feel that I was guilty of 'bringing out from any one Gentleman who (poke a tingle fentiment or expreffion which could produce a feeling of rancour or animofity in France, in this country, or any other part of Europ':. My Hon. Friend is unwilling to negative the prefent motion, though he is (ferrous of an explanation of the grounds on which it is propofed, and the Right Hon Gentleman is fsirprifed that this explanation is demanded, when my Hon. Friend expreffes his reaclinefs to vote for even a much larger number of Icemen, if fuck a number were neeetfary to the public fervice. I am. Sir, as ready as any Mem ber to vote for the propofed addition of feamen, on the principle that they are neceffary for the public fervice ; but I have at prefent no better ground for my vote than if as,ooo, ioo,ooo, or any ocher number of additional feamen had been propofed. My oblation refts on this plain, confti entional ground, that as Reprefentatives of the People in the proper difeharae of our &tin we have a right to have the ma's of thefe increafed preparations explained, and not be called upon to -vote on the unlitnited confidence which we chute to repo* for a time in Minillers. I have always underflood that the prerogative of the Crown to conclude a peace was clear and undifputed, am; I can have no difficulty in agreeing with the feuti menu which my Hon. Friend entertains on this point. I certainly do a g ree with him, that thole who have cnunfelled his islajelly to conclude any peace, am refpottfible for the merit of the terms of that peace, and are liable to cenfure if they appear incontinent with the national honour and fatety. I cannot, however, allow, that after the peace has been concluded, and after its terms have been can• vatted and approved, that if circumnances occur which render the continuance of peace impoffiblc, Milliners are to be neceffarily accufed of having. by their cnndua, produced thefe circumnances.— With refpeEt to his Maje Sty's right of declaring war, there was as little doubt in theory, but in prnClice a very important diitindion exiSted. In this declaration might be involved every principle of a free Conflitution, every thing connected with the property, nay. the very exigence of the fub jed. The Sovereign might be ill advifed, and ex perience had fully proved that this is not merely a ',fable cafe. The country might be plunged in to a war, of which it was impoffible to fce either the equity or the necefllty. It might be continued againft the will of the Parliament or the People, and the whole, or part of every man's property might be wrefted from him, if in practice this pre• rotative of the Crown was carried to all the extent which theory fuppofed. But, Sir, fuch a con- Itrudion of the prerogative Strikes every one in a moment as monflrous, and while in theory we admit the power of the Sovereign to declare war, in practice and in fubflance we pollifs the privilege by which alone that declaration can be carried into 'Weft. This privilege is founded in the means we p ides of giving or withholding the need:try lupplics. This, Sir, has an operation to the pre vention of war to a confiderable degree, though it is only the privilege of the park which we enjoy. This Houk mutt therefore be neceffarily patties to every war. • How, Sir, is this to be done t Why. Sir, the mode of our becoming patties is Pimple. His Majeßy in all cafes Oates to es the grounds on which he has thought a declaration of war necef fary, and he calls upon. US to grant the fupplies toceliary for the prolecutiort of this conteft. We all know that inftances are not wanting in which the Sovereign has been colnpelleil to rilinquiffi a war, beFaufe Parliament. convinced of its injunice and ru.nons effects , w".•a fforded hf 1 . I longer t e upp !es. will not here '.r . eternitne bow far the American war wa s put an end to by t h e vo i ce o f P ar li ament —but ther: is one Rriking inStance in which a war put an end to by the esercife of this contlitu ti,una_f. power, and that was t h e i n ß ance i n w hi c h wc • ratimulettt of Charles the Second, compelled that Prince to relinquif% the ar.cl7l -- -var. Now,' Sir, how does the cafe (land at po•it ot ? and here I will tea my argument. W e I.new that in prac tice armaments precede any .dtici..l-tu. t munication from the Throne, or any vole of ftip i ent ; and 1 huh that, if danger really exists, iirmat. Jews are now going on with a rapidity emit cfpunde tt to the j emergency on which they ant founded. cer tain effed of the vote is only co make os direct parties to arty war to which tit:rearmaments may I he applied. \Vhat I objeel te, then, is tioallei that I have heard no grounds hated to jullify -I , lr extraordinary preparation ; and, therefore, I mita, I nn conflitutional principles, enter my protet againft the mode of proceeding which has been adopted. The cafe of the Rutliae armament is one in which many perfons were detirous to ;endue a courfe limiter to that now prnpofed to be adopt. ed ; but I do not think that when the confequences of that armament are considered, that the proceed ings then adopted will be very likely to encourage imitation. I hope, Sir, I may be allowed to rear fon hypothetically relpeding the independence of Parliament in granting kipplies for carrying on any war. I trust that we are not neceffarily to be conflantly guided by a fpirit of humble docility, though our independence may appear more clearly in theory, than in any cafes of mode.n or recent ex perience.' In whatever we clinic to ex,:reife our contlitutional right, the potribility of its exercise will not be ditputed. Poffibly we might think that negotiation was preferable at a moment when Minilters had plunged the country in war ; or, on the other hand, we might fuppofe, that meafures of a more vigorous defcription would have done much more for the national honour than any ne gocietion ; and how is our opinion to be exprelfed, except in withholding the fupplies, before we hind ourfelves to become parties to a war ? I there fore, Sir, for one, contend again)) the Hanle of Commons being a mere echo, a mere docile re ceiver of whatever •communication Mtnhteri may think proper to make under the form of a Meffige from the Throne. Ido nut with to flatter Mini (lets when I fay, that I believe that the prepare lions which have been recommended are founded on a firm and bonen convidion of their expediency. lll, I wiil notfuppote that they would willingly ,end with out reference to any one objed of advantage, take tuch peps if they did not i magine that they were oral. tial to the interells of the country. Their interell, as well as their character, equally forbid me to fuppofe, that in this :Rance they are deceiving the Houk or the Public. This I have no difficulty in hating generally, though I muit add, that hollances of the guilt, to which I have now allud ed, are not entirely unknown. But let Gentlemen recoiled that with the bell intentions iii the world, Mini. hers are liable to error, and that whet they con. ceive to be wife and politic, might, if explained, appear unwise and inexpedient.—This. I mull only fay, that we are totally without all means of form ing any judgment. In the Melfage of his Majelly, or in the fpeech of the Right Hon. Gerriemen, there is not a fingle word hated by which I can venture to form any opinion of the points in difpute. A good deal has been laid, Sir, with the view of (hewing, that if a rupture fhould take place, it would be only the natural refult of the Treaty of Amiens. Now, Sir, I am one of thofe who hold a very different opinion, and without hefitatinn I fay. that if war does now take place, there is no need'. fity for fuppofing that it has the (lighten connec tion with that Treaty, or that this was a Treaty not fit to be concluded. I thought, and I have ken no reafon to alter my opinion, that the treaty of Amiens was an eligible treaty ; not eligible compared with other treaties, that under other cir. cumtlanees might have been formed, but eligible is freeing the country from a molt dal udive war. Are we to be told, Sir, that Minihers dare make no peace, becaufe the unreafonable ambition of France may now drive us to the renewal of hoftilities ? Are we to be told, that we were to wage warfare till we had obtained a fetisfadory affurance on the part of the enemy, of a fincereidefire to cultivate all the bleffings of tranquillity in the true fpirit of peace? No reasonable man will, I believe, hold fn I extraordinary an opinion, as that which I have now hated. It may be further urged againll Minillers, that (tote the conclufion of peace, they have (hewn too much forbearance, that they have .toed ton much in the fpirit of ccmceflinn. How far this charge is true, I have no means. of determining, though there appears no reafon to conclude that ' their difpofition to conciliation, has gone beyond a commendable defire i n preferve the peace. If they have been guilty oi" filch forbearance or con celion, as has in the fmal left degree comprom i zed the honour or fafety of d e n country, unqueftion ably their condua has bee. l highly criminal, butt this is no confequence of th e ir having concluded the Treaty of Amiens. But, .rsir, perhaps, we are to be told, that it was impolitic to make peace t i ll we had a vigorous adminiftrati s n to support it. I certainly do not think that want of vigour in an adminiftretion, is a fufficient rest on for not enter , ing into a war, if a legitimate cat .fe of war exist s. As an objedion to the cnnclufinrt of peace, it is one of the molt ridiculous and in conclufive that ever was brought forward. If Mini flees have con ceded too much, or done too little for the fupport of the honour of the country, they' have ineurred a very great ref;aonfibility; but let e!ot this be laid to the charge of else Treaty of Amiens. If lam fond of that treaty, it is becaufe it was the means of ridding us of inettrobrances of the inoft oppr . er five kind. Nut that it freed us from connetitton with allies, for allies we bad none at the time it was concluded, bur rls et it delivered us fro m the deteftable and ebominati le principles on which the late war was concluded. Ido fincerely hope. Sir, that we hear nothing more of wan under taken for religion and finel order. I (peak not diliefpedfully of religion or of the bleffings of fo etal order, bat I fpeale of ti'iat deteltabk by . poerify which held forth tbefe as n'ee often fi ble atolls of cnnteft, while we were a long fighting for ends of a nature totally different and oppofite. I be lieve that fuch hypoerify is far j ever delfro Ted . ; and I trull that as long as a feneiment of u Uwe, as infamous deception as a deteftatron of fuck bale and deception be reprobated among men, luck at. tempts to impok oak a generous biopic ilea it bs held in eternal execration. if thlrortutr,tell, we are to be doomed to a rer.eival of holl:lstirfs, I hope that the obje& of the •var and dittinfily underfteod. What which may eventually head to slid: f•if tu..fo; refult, I mid; to be totally ~r they z fer to the poireffiou of 'l.flt.t, the s cion of Alexandri.t, or whatever etifiion they involve, I have no ine.t.fs ,• a ..;,,. an opinion. I (hall jolt fay generai!y, t*, I: I eff; national rights are involved, ilattcrapts hav e made to lower that rank which we have hezn ae cullomed to hold among the Rates:ff . En, 0;. c, and all attempts at amicable adj u n ment hive: 11601, then I have no difficulty in fayim. that a w:tr un derniken under Inch circumaances wott!l be jolt. Of the necellity and policy of fuel' a war no man can s fi , r a moment doubt. But, Sir, I know it is laid to at it is necelfary tohold out to the People tome oftenlible objc of war beyond what is the real oh jeA of counclt—without this load language the ra tional entholiiiim cannot be animated. This I hold to ha a very blue and a very pernicious doctrine. If a war is s tally necelrary, I am convinced that no meafure of this fort need be retorted to to animate the national fpirit. Falfe pretenfinns and hh li founding words do not appear to me to be likely to :sounde the energies of o people. Nothing, in deed, in my conception, fit much dispirits a people called upon to make great exertions, as innorance of the precife object of ecntell ; and this igno rance was, I am fully perfnaded, one of the leading caufes of the evils which the late ealami ' tous contra entailed on the country. After the experience of thefe calamities, no on! v'ould fur e. ly wilh to go to war for a light objeft. On this point I 'hall ['peek in very plain teams. If war is for great national objens, then I am convinced it will be fultained with a chine rponding national energy, but at all events let :hat of.j4t lie fairly and fully dehined. Do not la ns again involve the country in the fume ralarnifies which the want of a fpecifie ohjla has Aire: dy trade us In feverely exper ience. It was the want of this fpecitic objet which made the people cn!,.! and unintcnnkd through a groat part of the late conteii, lit I.:r as events on the Continent scare cone frned, though loyal and tin Inimons in the de hence if: the cnial:r). I hape and trill then, that before Milliners call on us to be parties in ano . l4r war, they will fairly explain the circumflanees which have given rife to it, and the objeEls for which it is bra,tin. The Right Hon. Gentleman riPpolite has laid a great deol cf the rerponfibi:ity which attaches to Minitters front their prefent condinft, and in this I fully agree with him. He ; has Paid fomethiog of the reproach which he may have to encounter for too great liberalfry of c , n cation. On this point allow m- ;nit tar exprers my confiden e, that he will never he induced, by any fear of reproach, to abandon fyllem of con ciliation fo long as it is confillent with honour, and promiics to I:aci to an amicable reftea. I will not readily he accord nf endeavouring to inflo ence Minitters to go ta the oppolte extreme. But while lam the advocate of conciliation, I (boll never be the apologilt of difhonnur. My Hon. Friend has fpoken of the prefent Government as excluding die whole ability of the kingdom. On this point I wifh not at prefent to enter. —But I may be jolt permitted to fay, that in the profped of war, with loch a man as Earl St. Vincent at the head of the Board of Admiralty, there would be little reafon to dread the want of fuitable preparation, and the Cigna! naval triumphs of the late war :afford ns the belt grounds to hove for future faccefs. Of the merits of our land forces, no man thinks more highly than I do. lam no military man myfelf, but forming my judgment on the opinion of thole belt quatined to fpeak on this fobjedt, I believe that we have officers equal in (kill and in courage to any officers in Europe. Of our troops, my opinion is not lefs favourable. I am convinced that in any coma in which they might be called upon to engage, they would be , found fully to flippant the cliataacr which thee have fo lona:maintained. Ot . what then flinuld I be afraid in the event of the renewal tf war ? Of fubjugat:ron to France ! the idea ranlyft, for a mo ment, be indulgea. When, h wever, I conhider the many vulnerable points in our situation, when I take a view of the whole hate of the empire, when I look even to our financial refaurces, the ,ugh in Tome points of view their appearance is flounth ing ; when I take all theft thiaas into confidera• Lion, I cannot think of the renewal of war but as a aloft grievous calamity. Though for years we Ihould on every oecalion be fuecefsful—though every expedition ftiould be crowned with glory, Rill prolongation, even of a fuccefsful conteft, could not but be infinitely calamitous. The Hon. Mem ber, after a few more remarks, concluded by de claring that he ffiould not vote againft die motion." Mr. Femmess begged the permiffion of the Com mittee that he might explain the fentiment which had fallen from him in the courfe of his former fpeech, and which had been alluded to by the Ho. nourable Member who (poke lan. He certainly did fay, that " the whole ability of the Nation was excluded from its Councils ;" bat at the fame time that he fah) this, he wifhed it to be nn• del-flood that he entertained the higheft re(peul for both our army and our navy; it was not only the Noble Lord (St. Vincent) to whom his Honour able Friend had alluded : but he was convinced that there were many, very many men of the firft ability in the country engaged in both thefe de partments. He therefore did not intend that they lhould, by any means, be included in that general ups - el:Goo. Mr. Sivaitouous declared, that he thought it an outrage ei.n the Conftitution for any Gentleman to demand or !require any explanation at the prefent etifis. Minh:tees ought not, under the prefent cis eumftances, to ffifclofe any information which, in eonfeq uenee of their official capacity, they might be poffeffed of; was contrary to their duty to Ido In. Other Ger, tlemen might entertain their particular . to the meafure now before th fiou ;obbjeutft.ifoinirs part, be thought it fit and fe proper to attend to the w ords of his brajelty's Mel Page. It Rated that great armaments were going on in the ports of France a nd Holland, and that at the tame Was impatient • iikaSoas are going on the 10!I Teen g , v;•rnirntra errs. cocontl tnr Lc thou g ht it oor tloty to ;,t nl ,ti 4111.1 tt,- ••31!..! I 01 . •••,,e,-)0 ',ie.) : . vL, , f;, !,•, r'•?; . r•-o•cc th, c, 1 • !! • A. .; •ler. , • .' 't the n t ti:at ahro,, ! CIO war w.p, cLit t". 11; I..it ftppif he was role:11y fatkEcd, 311.1 be t! .. ,rounds for co!-.fid.:r.:e I . t.e they ...re not .lifrfed to le tve. ti:e res t f tit:a c :antry, or of Ireland, in a defcm..lc;.,iate. w..:e 11,1 now engacteti, the liono.:1,11. mae ftid, in aanarholiiiitics, bot it we were, mc hid this confolation, tit tt svc were not fallen alt.! deztadci as other nations were ; we w;.le tti;. in a lati.tCort capable of exettion fajicient to tell} tita ambition or the bafeoels of any ner,:-;1,01,r, h)wcrer powerful they might be. Li: !h tdd now conclude with giving hii moll hearty aii:nt to the vote upon their table. Lord ii.twicEstvrtv 1p01..7e to the rmowin , . cf . feet I pert i eMy agree with the Hon. G man wl.io 1 . 20 he !aft, in the di:lin:ion which helots drawn is iih reed to his N'lljeity's pretoc,iaiive in making p ace and declaring war, but 4lthe?iyh, the .iiltint . ion as (lazed by the I-lon. Gentleman. is uiu!e:iiable in the point of view in which he t. pi i eJ it , I beg leave to obferee that ti ere is very material ditrerence with leg :ad to th e (lace= lion of w a r, b ot h i n i t; origin and c.inicipicnci.s. tr tm that of peace. The King's ptern2.trive con icr,, i grant, on his Majaly the rigilt o.t ,iecl.tr ingi war, but tliLn tine,e is veiled in Parliament a praaical n-:ga:ivc, that cordlitutional and filutary check anti contri,til which goes to render fruiticfs and unay.tiliag Cie declaration of war. That this prerorathr i eiretiiial to the interel of the aate, n perfon will undertake to deny; but the ecercife of it matt' be defeated by the power which this /lode vlieft.s, ver 'ln. { in its wifdom thof_ fin pl;rc are +-en pi-est - motion of ha. ail ;?:s. otec.r, le: me %ma, k. it i. abfolute!y neceffai y Parliament Ihovld have itthmiced to thdr intielEgAtfon, every dm:mete and paper calcul iced to conecy to them ;::e infor m itiiin on which in reality thrir conturtence with the executive p wet- funded. They fhcalti be fupplied with every poffible information before they consent to grant the fupplies thee may be cailcd upon to vote. In nich a cafe, it is °lesions di it no inc invenience cnn arise from pro icing tic information which Governmeni 1 1 f trill, as the communication itfelf is grounded open the principle of enabling t :e ...poa s e of the ezi.e,,incy fpringingfr oni t i le i!or s laid before it. But in the cafe of •• all points are amicably adjulled, where every quellion which had been previnufly agitated and dircuiled with perhaps great zeal on both fides, is fuppofed to have been finally adjufled, there is a very material difference limn the cafe of ‘Nriten peace is once made, and all difputes are. by the re eflablithment of the relations of amity. let at refl. a mop fcriuua inconvenience might refult to one or to all the powers who had made peace, were a full difelofure of all the circa antes previous to the definitive coeds. Pion o it to take place. With refpeo to any ad. vaatage which could be derived from fuck a cont. , muni.:ation—l mean that of entering into all the details of negotiation, I waft, gentlemen are con vinced none can poffibly occur. The nature of the information to be given mull then depend upon the peculiar circumflances of the cafe :. but altinin g n the Houfe of Commons ought to be in poffeffion of every jug and fatisfailory degree of information, before it fanOions the declaration of war by the vote of fupplies, the queflion is extremely different with regard to the vote the Committite is now called upon to give. The only queßion is, who. titer, in the cafe of armaments preparing in the ports of other countries, and during the coolie of important negotiations, the Houle is bound to call for any explanation on the fubj:6l: and gibe. Cher great inconvenience might not refult front doing Co ? A difference has indeed been made by i the Hon. Gentleman, of the Houfe having pledgsd ilfelf, by giving a vote on the occalion of the Rull Tian armament. He does not, however, Teem to recolleft the drift of his own reafoning on that fabjea, when it was ditto ;fed. There ;was, Sir, allow me to obferve, nothing at that time in dd . *. ;rite between RufGa and the Porte, which could affen, in a flight degree, the fafety of this coun try, or of any of his Alajelly's dominions. The armament then voted, was one for political pur poles, with no immediate reference to the extras of holtilities ; and the Hon. Gentleman at that I time admitted, there was nothing in the state of al: faits which could affect our fecurity. Yet I will al. low that even then the Houfe might be confillent in demanding information in the fief inflance,becaufe !the question of war eventually came under confide. ration. But now the cafe is very different ; for we have to contemplate,not a remote,but a neighbour. ing Power, which is preparing conliderable naval armaments; and, what cannot pats unnoticed,foch armaments on the part of that Power, have al. ways pi oved either alarming or dangerous to this country. It has frequently happened to this coun try in former times, that a naval armament, fit• ting out in the poets and harboui s of France. with. out any avowed objea, have jußified the Exe , :n. Live Government to arm. But when with theta armaments, announced as they are in his Majcity's Melfige, are combined important difcuhlons filing between his M:jeity and the Government of Fiance, which may, for I merely speak of p o i. fibllities, ultimately lead to the renewal of hortili ti!s, I think I do not go too far in laying, the Houle can feel no difficulty in agreeing to the precaiitionary meafures which are this night pro. p.ried fa r their adoption. It is import a nt, an d I beg to call the attention of Gentlemen to the re. mark, that the I loufe should feel the prefent ref's. lutinn merely as a precautionary meafure, to which it is the duty of the Executive Government to have recourfe. I affute this Hon. Gentleman, that his Majefly's Minillers do not defire that MOST CODfidence lhould be reputed ia them, them