Star. — London, England, 1822-02-21 00:00:00

:U!. st==ls°llllllllllllllllll2axle deco bad been pleasedto say, that Mr. Justice Best std j bad autborisedt a stricter punishment upon the poi- abuse soner than thewelebce warranted. He admitted that effect in sulsstance whut-Mr.Justice Bayley was represented regard to hare .raid was correct. But if the Petition stated bably brin that Mr.4ustice Best had in any way directed the Sir T. LgETHBRIDGE explained. inflittion of arbitrary confinement upon the prisoner, for stating tbat Mr. Hunt was not submitted to soli be believed it to state that which was entirely false. tart confinement, was that of a public officer con- He had sent for a copy of the rules aod regulations netted with the jail. From what 'he understood to signed by Mr. Baron Graham and Mr. Justice Best, have fallen from the on Member, the subject and he could answer that they contained nothing would come be fore the House, and he was satisfied against.the law of the land, and nothing but what that the charges would not Learned Judges—of men whose character and talents muted a prisoner to solitary confinement, con state- trary were of the highest description , and who had as much to the order of a Judge, even upon a written respect for the law, and for the rational liberties of ment should signed " Henry he Hunt." If it firstamongst condemn deen—(Clteers).—With respect to the question of the such an act—(Hear, hear). —The Petition was or illegality of the Manchester Meeting, and of Mr. dared to be printed ORPHANS . FUND. Hunt's conduct there, it had eventually com e before ,the twerveJudges, and after hearing it argued before Sir WILLI M CUARTIS ro e a t move for the a thep them in a most able manner by those concerned for pointment of a Select Commi to inquire into Mr. Hunt, with the greatest deptatience and attention, state of the management of the City of London they came to an unanimous ision that the Meeting Orphans' Fund. He made this motion as much for was illegal. When he had the honour to address the the sake of the character and honour of the City as House upon this subject, he always predicted that' for that of his own credit, which had been attacked such would be the result if the question were sent te upon this subject. He was desirous of investigation, the Courts of Law. But the Hon. Member for Aber . because he was satisfied it wouldOppear that no pub decn, doubtless, considered himself better qualified to lic account had been ever carried on with greater understand the law and the Constitution than those fairness than that relating to the present Fund. Since who had spent their whole lives in studying it. He its first establishment many sums had been raised had always understood that nothing was more neces- upon it, and these, under.the present bee n rat s Lary than for l oathed characters of the Judges of the land the Fund, would be liquidated four years sooner than to stand uorepr—(Hear).—Therefore, if there had been contemplated when the money was origi was anything distinct to be charged against them, let nally borrowed. The Hon. Baronet then moved that it be brought forward regularly and directly. But a Select Committee be appointed to investigate the let not the Member for Aberdeen, under cover of a Pe- application of the Orphans' Fund, and the means re. tition, traduce and calumniate the Judges in a manner sorted to for the purpose of liquidating the debt at which, nut of that House, he should call scandalous. present charged upon it. Mr. BENNET had received a letter from Mr. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW was very glad that the Hunt that morning. He was not in the habit of cor responding with him, and if he was, he should not be at present, had very little to do with this Fund. It ashamed of so doing. He had received the rules and was raised principally by a tax on coals, and was too regulations of the prison, and they were by no means often pplied to a the local pur said, posesthe Hon. of the Cißaty.ronet, applicable to offences like that f or which Mr. Hunt Mr. HOLME SUMNER suffered. They were intended for felons; and it was by the present motion, had taken the business out of the first time that a person confined for a political his (Mr. Sumner's) hand. He had last year given misdemeanour had been subje:ted to the m. He then notice of a motion on the subject, ut had several remarked upon what he considered to be the lofty times deferred it at the request of the Hon. Barpnet tone assumed by the Hon. and Learned Solicitor- and some members of his family. It had been his General upon all occasions, as if he was sitting in the intention to move for he leave to bring he in a Bill resent me chair of the Old Bailey. If per sons had been accus- gulate this Fund, as conceived t p tomed to certain manners elsewhere, they ought to nagement of it was most disgraceful. He should in change them when they got into that House, and en- form the House theramt, agreatmany searssinceahe Lord deavour to suit them to the society they were in.— Mayor and Alden of London were formed i When he charged his Hon. Friend with uttering a Court for the relief of the Orphans and Freemen scandalous libels, he (Mr. Bennet) did not know of the City, and that they had amassed a sum of where the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had picked £700.000, for which they could he not vil ac%Va urcont. A Thi ßill s up such language, nor did he care ; bu t he was quite was said to be in the time of t Cis. sure that it was neither fit nor proper to be used in had in consequence been passed to create a fund for that House. The lion. Member then stated, that he replacing this sum, and for that purpose it imposed had the highest respect for Mr. Justice Bayley, but duties, principally npbn coals hiought into the Port he mist protest against. Members not having the ii- of London. He (Mr. Sumner) complained that this belay of speaking their sentiments, if they believed Fund had not bee n dul y a pp lied, and that the Court the Judges to be acting imprope rly. A Member of Aldermen, the guardians of the Fund, had con would less faithfully discharge his duty by remaining sternly appointed one of their own body to be the silent than by delivering his opinion. collector of it. He admitted that the nominal salary. Mr. LOCKHART agreed that it would be an un- was only £l5O a-year,.but this circumstance, he warrantable act to inflict the punishment of solitary thought, rendered it the more discreditable for one I confinement upon the prisoner. As the Honourable of the guardians of the Fund to be its collector for Baronet, however, had denied that Mr. Hunt had so paltry a consideration. This collector was ap. been placed in solitary confinement , he was bound t o p ointed under a condition that he should pay into the believe that that was the case. If any rules made by Chamberlain's Office, once a month, the amount of Magistrates and sancti med by Judges could lead to the duties he should collect by virtue of his office; that punishment, nothing could be more unconstitu- but a custom had prevailed of his retaining some of tional, and the laws upon the point ought to be looked the balances due from it in his own hands. Originally i n to and restored to their original vigour. It was his this was a small balance; but the present collector, opinion chit no such principle as that of solitary con- the Hon. Baronet, had always, on an average, three fiaement was recognised in our law books. At all months balance in his hands, amounting also, upon events, it was fit that the laws in question should be an average, to £11,700; a sum not unimportant to revised. The Petition being read, a person in the situation of the Hon. Baronet ; for, The SOLICITOR GENERAL felt hinvelf called to a banker, a floating balance of £11,700 could not upon to trouble the House again, particularly for the but be useful. The interest upon this sum was about purpose of explaining the nature of the application £5BO a-year, though the whole duty of the office made by Mr. Hunt, which seemed to have been mis- was performed by a deputy at 4:100 a-year. This understood. Mr. Hupt made an application by letter practice was contrary not only to the Act of Perlia to Mr. Justice Bayley, who immediately communi- ment, but to the conditions of the Board, executed cated it to the other Judges. The letter complained by the Collector on his taking the office. He had that the Surgeon and Solicitor of the prisoner had spoken on this subject three years ago, to an Hon. been excluded from seeing him. As the Court could Alderman, then a Member of that House, and had give no judgment upon a letter, without first hearing expressed his intention to bring in a Bill on the sub the other narty and having the necessary affidavits, ject. By that Gentleman he was requested to give they immediately sent an order for the admission of up his intention for that Session ; and art immediate the Solicitor to Mr. Hunt, in order that he might ad- inquiry on the subject was promised. It was accord vise with him, and take the necessary proceedings. ingly brought before the Court of Aldermen ; refer- This was the position in which the case stood with red by them to a Committee ; and the Report of that regard to the Court of King's Bench. The Honour- Committee stated the mere fact of these balances ale Member fair Shrewsbury had thought proper to being retained, but without suggesting any alteration charge him with having used unbecoming language; in the practice. Indeed, a motion for the better ma• not to himself, but to another Hon. Member of that nagement of the Fund had, in the Court of Alder- House. It would be remembered, that that Hon. men, fallen to the ground 16r want of a seconder.— Member had thought proper to state, that no judg. The subject was then brought before the Common ment, since the time of Judge Jefferies, was more Council, it being represented to them that it deeply infamous than that passed upon Mr. Hunt. Now, affected their interest. - he would ask whether it was unbecoming in him to Sir WILLIAM CURTIS here rose to order. The describe such language as being grossly libellous ? Common Council he said had no more to do with the If the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury thought that he subject than the Hon. Member had with the affairs was to form his manners or his language to suit his of France. view of a case, he was never more mistaken. He Mr. SUMNER said it was obvious that the Com begged the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury to under- mon Council had something to do with the subject ; stand, that whenever he had occasion to speak of him for the City Lands were pledged to make good the or his acts, ire should be ready to justify his language Fund, in case the duties imposed should pro ve - insuf there, or in any other place. ficient for the purpose. He was awate that the sub- The SPEAKER rose to order. The House would jest Was not agreeable to the Honourable Baronet, see, notwithstanding the mysterimis language of the but he must be content to hear it discussed. The Hon. and Learned Member, what was its intended Common Council referred the matter to the Corn meaning. Nothing could be more injurious to the mittee for General Purposes, and that Committee freedom of debate necessary to the proceedings of had reported that gross mismanagement had taken Parliament—(Hear, hear). — He trusted that the on. place in the application of the Fund ; and that they, and Learned Member would be the first to see the the Committee, were at a loss to conceive how the necessity of stating, that the words he had used were Honourable Baronet could reconcile his conduct in intended to convey no other than their literal meaning. the office of collector with his duty as a guardian The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, that in the of the Fund. The Honourable Member proceeded language he had used, he had no intention but to jus- to read a part of the Report, containing a message to tify himself a g ain,t the charge which had been made. this effect, when Mr. HUME said, that the assertion of the Hon. Sir WILLIAM CURTIS again rese to order, and Baronet, that Mr. Hunt had not been in solitary con- submitted that the Hon. Member had no right to read finement, was not sufficient authority for the House a paper reflecting upon the conduct of a ember of to go upon, unless the Hon. Baronet put it in pos- that House. lessron of the source of his information. The Hon. The SPEAKER said, the paper in question did and. Learned Gentleman opposite (the Solicitor-Ge- not refer to the conduct of the Honourable Baronet ' done that which he often did—he had em- as a Member of that House. It spoke of the collector se instead of argument. He would re- of the Orphans Fund. The Honourable Baronet had m not to resort to such means. Let not misapprehended the mule respecting the practice of la brief authority assume that dictatorial the House, It was competent for any Member, upon Committee appointed fOr t'be purpose. declared the etistence of the same have been since reported to exist ; it system of abuse and mismanaee. petitions of 1795, of 1819, of 1820, ing the continuance and increase of ..-vances. she Courts of Law could afford e petitioners no relief: the Judges declared that they had no jurisdiction. But perhaps it tnieht be tended that they should be content with the re. ledy which the Learned Lord had in view. And sihat,did they suppose that remedy to he? Wh y , i t was to affcird.a remedy by law-suitl—(l-kar, That was the object of the Bill which was in theca*. templition of the Learned Lord's predecessors, an d which, he supposed, would b e followed up by the Learned Lord. AB' the grievances of which the pe. titioners complained were to be classed together, ant were to have-one and the same remedy ; namely, that the petitioners might be enabled to go to law with the Magistrates and the Burghs. The next point to• which he would come, and to which he begged tkr call their attention, was more important than any point which he had yet urged—nwee important than the opinion of the Noble Lord and the Learned Lard. Before the third Report, to which he had before al luded, was presented, this teen Magistrates of those Burghs, after retiring, agreed that the evil of self election, which abuse prevailed to such extent, re quired redress and alteration. Thirty of the Burghs also came to a resolution, that the anuses and robs_ management were so gross, that the evils resultins: from them could not he prevented nor teclresse4 without destroying the system of self-election. That was the opinion of about thirty of the Burghs. Ths Noble Lord (Archibald Iltr.nilten) then referred to the Reports of the Committees, and read everal extracts, and dwelt patticularly on the rerision cf the Committee reipecting the Burgh of Aberdeen. That Burgh had (lethal ed itself bankrupt, and exhi bited a debt of moo r.nly. whsn they actua • owed a sum of between 1.:130,C00 and 4140,000. 0 ing so large a sum, the Magistrates and Office, s ex ibited to the Burgesses, at their annual meeting enly a debt of £6OOO. .Nothing could be more simple, or even ridiculous, than to pretend to enact a law which would provide a remedy for those and such evil', by enabling the parties to institnte a law-suit. Tire,Ma gistrates, whom he stated before to agree in opinioa as to the abuse practised, came to a resolution that the evil lay not with individuals, but was in the ystem. That was quite conclusive on the point at is,ue be tween hint elt and the Learned Lord. For these rea sons he protested againq the remedy which was is - tended by the Learned Lord against the evils. and ire would ask the House to go with him into a Commit tee to consider the ditreient Report, made by their orders. He would beg the attention of the I - louse to the Report itself, for, if they attended to that, they would never be prevailed on to agree with the Learned Lord in the remedy which the Learned Lord meant to propose. The Noble Lord then read ex tracts from the evidence taken bet ot e tie Committee, which sheaved the fraudulent concealment of the debts of the Burghs by the office, s, and which went to chew hat the fhirgesses had no shale in the ma nagement of the corporate business, and hat the books and accounts were not accessible to them. He then adverted again to the declaration of the Magis trates themselves, after they had recited fus. oifce. They declared the s) stem of election to iadically defective, and that it had a tendency_t! ari oitutte.pre ference.- They, therefore, were, of opinion thii some change ought to be made. The bankruptcy of a Burgh did not only injare itself, but all the charities and institutions were also involved in the liankruptcy, inasmuch as the Burgh had their money. What re medy, then, could those I:ave by being enabled to ga to law ? The Repot t of 1519, in the fifth page, clas sified the sum total of all the Petitions, and set forth eight distinct allegations. In what way di.i the Learned Lord mean to dispose of the Reports which had been presented to the House? Was no notice to be taken of thiSse Reports ? A Bill to enable the parties to•go to law was the sole redress pioposeJ.— He hoped the House would never consent to that measure. Much difference of opinion prevailed in the Committee w hich reported last year, nor did they do ju-tice to the Petitioners. They refused to take parole evidence when he offered it, and reported soon after. They spent the first month in altercation with one another*, and wasted the last month in contend ing about their Resolutions. They executed their commission by. giving their opinions in hostility to one another. He contended that the Committee of last year had executed their duty badly, but evcu so they were obliged to come to some conclusion. The eight allegations were substantiated by the evidence, and the Committees had supported their case. When it appeared by the Repot is that every species of abuse prevailed, he hoped the House would not hesitate in assenting to his motion. He wished to be under stood as saying, that the abuse of which he com plained attached to the system, and not to indivi duals. It was not of the persons he complained, bat of the evils inherent in the system. He was far from maintaining that all the Burghs were equally cor rupt. He hoped the House would forgive him if he mentioned some of the allegations of the Petitioners. The first allegation was the system of sell-election, where those in office appointed the persons who were to succeed them, and thus they continued the places in their own families. The second ailegathn was the want of due Representation. The third was the want of care in the management of their Revenue. He begged to assure the House that he had no i et sonal trust in this business, except that he was connected with that country, and that he was employed by the Petitioners to bring the subject before the House. He was in despair of doing any good in opposition to his Majesty's Ministers. This was, perhaps, the last time which he would concern himself on it, and he was anxious to make a trial for the Petitioners. There was not a crime which one could mention that was not to be found in the Reports, whether of flaud, abuse, corruption, commission, or omission. The abuse was of long standing, and forty years esta blished those abuses into a custom, which put the lows into a state of desuetude. The exactions were trftt, and the money did not find its way into the [ funds of he society. He believed the investigation which had already taken place had done some good. The Noble Lord _then adverted to the case of the Burgh of Cupar, in the Council of which seats were bought and sold. The Committee, of which he was one, declared, that they would have no hesitation in eves now ; . Honourable Baronet . two.— nese practices,' (Mr. Sumner) contended, pro- longed the continuance of the duty imposed upon. coals, and displayed a shameful system of jobbing. When he considered the courtesy he had :hewn t he Honourable Baronet, by postponing his own mo , tion, he could not but think that the Hon. Baronet had neglected to shevihim a similar courtesy, for he had only heard of the Ilonourable Baronet's notice of motion the night before last. He of course did not oppose the appointment of a Committee, but be snspected that if the Honourable Bamnet could get a Committee of his own he would be better pleased. He thought no Alderman ought to be upon the Com. mittee, but that it should be composed principally of the Members of the Home Counties, whose Con• stituents were the chief sufferers by the duty in question. Sir WILLIAM CURTIS disclaimed any wish to shew a want of courtesy to the Honourable Member, whom he had often. requested to bring the subject forward. He pledged his honour and character upon the result of the Inquiry.—The question being put, Mr. HOLM E SUMNER moved an' amendment, which, after resolving the appointment of the Select Committee, declared that they should be directed to inquire what steps had been taken towards ea tinguishing the debt upon the Fund, and to state to the House whether, upon the payment of that debt, it would he advisable for other persons to have a share in the management of the Fund besides the Lord Mayor and Aldermen. Mr. HUME wished to know who were the" other' persons" alluded to in the amendment of the Hon. ' Member. He presumed they must mean the Mem bers of the Ilou,e of Commons. Mr. HOLME SUMNER said that was the mean ing he had intended to be put upon the words. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but there not being forty Nlembets to form a House for di viding, the original motion was agreed to. neral) had don played abuse commend him men clothed ghich to ill 1 • them: I.etthellottouraide eeattllfOtieaefote the House, to sage the OSSA Willem by a COMMiI • .' ^ , ~,,, martial Gbn an not aappeelkihat by using hie staout to or dissent &mit. i s,: 1 .. 11110 - Mitt Report decb insfead of at mar., he , mat 'pro d uce the . BIOZHOLME SUNIMI, con6nueL• This conduct irletrances which ha he Wended, e'er there or opt of &ors. With * teas directly. contrary to ilia conditien cf the COl4 19oneted. the same dto the subject of the Petitiolt, be should pro. lector's Road. Latterly a new ;condition had bees ment•!They had pe bring it before the House at an early period. framed, the language of which tippiared to legalize rand VBl, declariN T. LETHBRIDGE explained. His authority. the retaining in head of one month's balance ; but those grievances. - -- -- __-...... —. ...t.;th.,i te, um. even now, the Honopsubla Baronet retained two, the petitioners no i • ------2.1 ....._ they had no iurildii ROYAL BURGHS OF SCOTLAND. Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON said, he rose for the purpose of moving, in pnrsuante of his notice, that the several Reports of the Select Committee ap pointed at different periods by that House to report on the Royal Burghs of Scotland be referred to a Committee of the whole House. After such a length of time since those Reports were laid on the table, it should not be a matter of surprise to any one that the subject was to be brought before the considera tion of the House. Ile felt it his duty, in consequence of the share he had in those Reports, and also en ac count of the relation in which he stood to the Burghs, to submit a specific motion to the House on the sub ject. The petitioners on whose statements the Select Committees were appointed, and did report, were most respectable, and in number amounted to five hundred thousand persons. The abuses and dilapi dations complained of were of an enormous extent, and all the Reports concurred in the opinion of their exiatence. The revenue of those Burghs amounted anniially to the sum of £lOO,OOO, which became the subject of the grossest abuse. The course which he meant to pursue, in order to induce the House to agree to the motion which he intended to make, was to state to them the progress made in the inquiry which was instituted at their direction, and the con clusrms to which the Committees had come. The Learned Lord opposite (the Lord Advocate) knew that it was then three years since he (Lord Archibald Hamilton) moved for the appointment of a Commit tee to consider the Reports of former Committees, and to inquire into the statements in the petitions from the sixty-six Royal Burghs. The petitioners ' were unanimous in their representation of the evils which they had suffered. They were also unanimous as to the remedy to be applied to those evils. What was then the line of conduct pursued by his Majesty's Ministers and by the Learned Lord Advocate? They did oppose his motion, and did it with success, which he hoped they would not do that night. They said that there was no case made out ; they said that the statements in the Petitions and Reports were par tial statements, and were only a cloak to the intro duction of Parliamentary Reform. Would they still pretend to say that the grievances of which the peti tioners complained were not real? Would they still maintain that the evils and corruptions stated did not exist? In 1819 he had made a motion, but was un fortunate enough to have it opposed, and conse quently lost. Month after month he continued to bring forward new motions, but was equally op posed; not, however, with equal success. He was fortunate enough, at length, to obtain n Committee against his Majesty's Ministers, and against the Law Officers of the Crown. That Committee of 1819 made a Report, and was dissolved soon after, it being near the close of the Session when it was appointed. Another Committee was appointed the next Session, consisting, for the most part, of the same Members w!..0 were on the former Committee, and they re ported also that the petitioners had much cause of complaint, and that the evils stated in the petitions existed. The great agitation into which the country and the Parliament were thrown by the question re specting her late Majesty prevented that Committee from making any great progress. He blamed himself for having gone into that Committee, under the cir cumstances. The Reports which were on the table have repeated the opinion of the petitioners, and hate said that the grievances complained of did exist. His object was, then, to refer the Reports of those three Committees to a Committee of die whole House. It would be impossible while the Speaker was in the Chair, and while the forms of the House were pre served, to discuss' and examine those Reports. He entreated the House to g rant him a Committee of the whole House, for, by so doing, they would do justice to themselves and to the petitioners, by examining into the Reports on their table. He would ask the Noble Lord (Binning), and the Learned Lord Advocate, if he was demanding too Much, after the expiration of three years since it seemed resolved to take the subject 'into consideration? •It was impos sible for him to urge the fintite;:with any effect, -to assent to his motion, without *first' explaining' What had been done by the different Committeet. So long since as the year 1793 1 a Report was made to the C f