Star. — London, England, 1810-03-24 00:00:00

The SPEAKER, according to the uniform practice of the House, declined giving any hypothetical opi nion where them was 'not a distinct 2nd !pecific moM tion before it. Mr. SHERIDAN said, of all people in that House he least expected the enforcement of the Standing Order for the exclusion of the public from the Right Hon. Gentleman who had come forward on this occa sion. He expected he world have eagerly seized this opportunity to recant the false doctrines which he had formerly so unguardtdly uttered, and become a con vert to the true faith of the freedom of the press. He' expected this candid and conciliatory proceeding;par ticularly as the Right Honourable Gentleman had been so very zealous in the correction of his speeches, so very anxious as to the stress of his emphasis, and the modulation of his voice, and so studiously inqui sitive as to the happiest attitudes for giving his sen timents a pantomimic effect. He was led, indeed, still more strongly into this expectation, which .had been so fatally disappointed, from the information that he had made amicable advances to Mr. Cobbett, and entered into a fair treaty of eqnciliation.— These hints he merely threw out for the gOnsideration of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The particular ob ject of his present motion was the condemnation of a By enacted by the Benchers of Lincoln'l Inn, New-- J'ARLLIMENTARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, MARCH 23, The Exchequer Bills Funding Bill, the Irish Corn Bill, and the Westminster Sunday Toll Bill, were read a second time, and committed fot to-morrow. The Royal Marine Mutiny Bill and the Salt Bill were read a third time and paa*d. Mr. LICHFIELD, from the Privy Council Office, presented some Returns respecting Commercial Licences ; end Mr. IRVING, Accounts of Corn impOrted; which were ordered to lie on the Table. Earl BATHURST gave notice, that be should move the second rcaaing of the Irish Distilleries Bill on Monday, if the prints were on the Table to-morrow. Some Local and Private Bills were brought up by Mr. LUSH INGTON Sir /MILS GRAHAM, Mr. O'HARA, and citlier Mem bers of the House of Common', and read a first time. Adjourned till to-morrow (this day.) HOUSE OF COMMONS. A message was received from the Lords, stating that their Lordships had. reed to the Royal Marine Mutiny sifil , and the Expiring I.aws Pill. The proper Officer presented certain Reports of the Commis sioners for auditing Public Accounts under the Acts Of the 45th, 6th, and 7th of the King. Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE moved, th*iollos instruction to whom the ComMittee the Staoding grdex- - intive to Inclosure qn extend . . Bills was referred to tend their incjitiiii";, ilis for Canals, I excluding gentlemen who wrote for the _ -spapers Tolls, &c. so far as related to any addition, ol'lncleins of the rates from their society. This law chiefly affected those and duties paidon those accounts. Agreed to. •••e_ •....4 who reported the proceedings in the Law Courts and Mr. PRENDERGAST moved for a copy of certain Papers i n P arl iament..•-• relative to the East India Company, agreeable to the Resolution of the House of 9th June last.—Ordered. cast upon these gentlemen, which it was time should Mr. H. MAR rIN ros e for the purpose ho had mentioned last now fully be confuted. He had to state then, that 'night, to which, he understood, no objection was to be made ; there were amongst those who reported the debates namely, to Move that an humble Address be presented to his of House no less than 23 Majesty, for a Return of the Number of Offices or Employments that graduates from the created since the sth January, 1790, under the Crown, or under Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, Dublin, and the patronage of the Crown, with the amount of the Salaries of Edinburgh : those gentlemen were all in their pre eaCh, the Date when granted, and the Name of the Persons hold- gress to - honourable professions ; and there was no ing such Offices. Possible course better than that which they had adopted After a few words from Mr. PERCEVAL, which received an • evrianation from Mr. MARTIN, the Motion was agreed to, and for the improvement of their minds and the acquisition the Address orderad to be presented by the Members of the of political experience. They had adopted this course House who were also of the Privy Council. f rom an h onest an d honoura ble impulse, and had to • On the Motion of Mr. DICKENSON, the Minutes of the Evi- boast the association of many great names, who rose dente on the Petition of the Dean and Chapter of Westminster Cathedral, concerning the Reports relative to Henry VII.', Cha- from poverty to reputation. . This had been long the pet, were ordered to be printed. employment, and indeed chief subsistence, of Doctor The Irish Sugar Drawback Bill was read a second time, and Johnson and Mr. Burke. Such were the men at whose ordered to be committed for Monday. depression this legal bye-law aimed ; it was a most Sir JOHN NEWPORT gave notice, that on Thursday next he would bring forward charges of misconduct in the Irish expen- 1 illiberal and base proscrip tion of literary talent, and diture. he could find no parallel in the history of England, Mr. COKE (of Norfolk) obtained leave to attend the Con- , except one indeed in the reign of Henry the Fourth, =lute of the Lords. upon the expediency of continuing the pro- which went to exclude Lawyers from sitting in Parlia hibitibn of Distillation from GraM. meat. At this, as might be expected, the body who ETEANGERs IN THE GALLERY. now sought to proscribe others was mightily offended; Mr. ST - Irg.lpAN rose to call the attention of the t h ey b ran d e d t h e P ar li ament w i t h t h e ep i t h et o f indoc- House, tp a subject of which : he had some time since him, and Lord Coke declared from the Bench, there given notiFis, and which notice had been continued, . . never was agood lac! made therein. It was to be feared from day,to day , for a c o nsiderable time. It..respec- i n d ee d , i t th i s b ye- l aw cont i nue d i n f orce, i t m i g h t ted the 'Rest:4ll.69n lately adopted ,by,tbe Benchers of be as justly said hereafter, there was never a good law. Lincoln' . i Inn, to ,fxclede from the privilege of being ycr educated at Lincoln's Inn ! He would, however, called by that 'B,oetety.to the Bar every individual who leave the individual grounds of the case altogether, may have written (for hire) fin - any newspaper. .But, and demand of that House whether it would be wise before Mr.. Sheridan was able .0 utter a word upon to take the regulation of the press out orthe hands that subject. 4 : started , . of men of good education, literary power s; and -as- Mr. WINDHAM, .and sp . okeas follows : piring genius, to place it under the guidance of the " Mr. Speakerin thepolley of the Standing Order of this • ignorant ! Such an atterript had, indeed, been made House, I am aware it Is notnecessary to say a word, nor to use any argument to enforce it; but Ido not think it improper to ob. some time ago in an instance which he would state, serve, that if any occasion, more than another, ever presented it- and which was frustrated by the enlightened libera self to this House, to render it necessary to enforce that Order, lily of the then Chief Justice. Previous to the depar the present,is that occasion; for the subject is pro p osed to be lure of Sir James 114 , Intosli the p resent Recorder of discussed in the presence- of those, some of whom are parties concerned in the discussion. My Right Honourable Friend's Bombay, for India, he applied for permission to de delicacy would lead him, I should think, to withhold his panegyric liver certain Leztures in one of the Law Halls. The while he spoke in the presence of the party concerned. I should permission was refused him, on the ground that he presume this apprehehsion would govern the conduct of the had once been a writer for a Morning Paper ; but Right Honourable Gentleman, upon the most convivial princi les - for t rail in his presence, we do not drink the chairman's p , ge re y, Lord Loughborough interfered, and obtained his de health." & sire, with the remark, that he was happy the press Mr. SHERIDAN—" I speak to order." • • :. had fallen to such able guidance. There was not a Mr. SPEAKER—" Mr. Sheridan, to order." ' 6 '' single reason for the enactment of this law; it was a Mr. SHEItIiiANs-- 0 I know that the Right HOD*. Gentleman vile attack on the liberty of the press, and a most un is entitledy without argoment, to enforce the Standing Order of just individual proscription ; it wag a violation of the the House foe the exclusion of strangers ; but— best principles of Otte Constitution ; m for (said Mr. ' Mr. SPEAKER — " Unless the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. SHERIDAH) `lt" is the glory of , English law, that it. Windham) has a nso!ion tA4 Peke, I apprehend it to be irregular san cti o n s ription; nor does it acknowledge to hear him." • ; any office in our state; which the honourable, ambi- Mr. WINDHAM•ro I have a motion to make, Sir; and I . mean to allude to it now, with a view to guide the conduct of tious industry, even of the 'Most humble; may not my Right Hon. Friend, as well as others, I mean that there is a attain." How dangeroui was it now to attempt any . ertain Standing Order in this House..-1 mean, with regard to invidious and unjust distinction, when the period -angers.' might be so immediate which woald call for the united Mr. SPEAKER—" Immediately on its being intimated that efforts of our *lie& pcipUlation • - 'Mr. SHERIDAN the eesire of any Hon. Member that strangers should with tw, the order must be enforced." • concluded-by moving, “ till t .F arquharson', pc • Mr. WINDHAM—" If any Gentleman should speak under tition might be referred 16 the ComMlttee ofiudica - restraint, that will necessarily call fertb, on the part of :hose Cure." . ' ''''' ' ' to oppose him, some.unweleotne truths-7" The ATTORNEY=GENERAL Contended that Mr. SIIERIDAN—" I speak to order." • the Judges; as Visitors, should have the' centroal. of Mr. SPEAKER_ " Mr. Sheridan to order. But I sipuld ob- the Inns of Court, and all Matters within their juris trvet it is the unavoidable tight of every Member of this House diction. He quoted the authority of Lord Mansfield. r enforce its eranding order: __,•Mr. WINDHAM rose to use the short monosylla- Mr. SHERMAN—i " 1 was St possession of the House ; som • M A 44 No rf • ' . ' ' to , every. assertion made about him, ex • Right Hon. Gentleman arose, said he has a motion to snake. s•" - . mitred nothing. • Now, I appeal .to you, Sir Whether, since cept as to the - correcti& of his speeches. AbOve all, am in posiession of the House, I ill) Dot entitled to zo on with- he never had descended to any advance or the slightest • hat:emotion; and that la* With the More confidence, since conc ili a ti on w i t h mr..cobbett.. He would now leave / Rif* 4• l °R. rrieners motion,' Wisti'ver it is • will tonic with the sebJect to those who taint for the purpose of dis tore propriety a ft erwards." . cussing it.— . (lle Aar* a ft er 10 the House.) - Mr. SPEAKER—" The Hon. Member truly ssates that be is in pdpsession.Of the House ;• as such be W4inot liable to any • Mr. ST E PHEN commenced a most manly speech terrupthikl. Ent any other Hon.. Menalier,, wail thinks it fit, (which we regret our - exclusion prevents us • from intitteket oily tint% to enforce any Sunidjng Order of this giving as /ally. es we could wish), by declaring that - ' , . he land been a meMber of Lincoln's Inn fot thirty-five Mr. EHERIDAN—" But the Right Hon. Gentleman has not ' - N I , h e h at i not t h e most remote comteogo . years, t that reed to enforce any I Stairding Order." . -. with the : framing of This - et:test . tflatiOxiciiis bye-lair i`b4 Mr. &pEAKER-:." Not yet ; bit any Member may; at . IMY e a s s ii kh t -ri t i most . • se call for the enforeeMent Of ant Order Of this House. It '.. , illtMl2" ' l l arid unju . st'O l over44ioh—a ;whit the Right Hon. Gentleman whether he will move to scandal rattier to its anthers than its objects.' What force any Stanffing Order eir not." • could be its design but 'the depression of laudable Mr. WINDIJAM—" I shall take no part In the (elute upon exertion ? " I will put a case (said Mr. Stephen) • - I testquestion, st 1 trisculd be supposed to be acting with a w ill suppose a young Mari' OF education and of talent contending with pecuniael,.difficultiCsa.:- . 4E1E6140 ' Mr. SPEAKER—" f ill H. Gentleniani mist determine for . - not proceeding from. vice, from family misfor. ,niself, what course Ire w rake. Ha hat-h sight to direct that ' 1 Standing Order of this J-louse be =famed; and I apprehend tune--I will suppose him , honestly meeting-his ob.* it the Standing Order to which the Hon. Member has alluded i structions with honourable industry, and exercising like every other Standing Order of this Heine, so imperativ e , his talents by reporting thildehates of this Mime, iia ait must beau/owe *hen mused, without being discussed or order to attain a profession. Where, I ask, is the dea ported by argument. The only question now remaining it, 1 (mr. Windham ) d oes , or does not, i gradatiun of such an employment.? who would be eta I nether the Hon. Member take notice that there arc Strangers In the Collett" I • meanly cruel as to deprive himofit ? The case which y 'Mr. WINDHAAI—" Why then,. Sir, I du . tat notice that i I have supposed, was, thirty Tears ago, my own. r re are Strangers In the Gallery." , ' . I was then acquainted with eight other Reporters, whet Mr. SPEAKER--" Strangers must withdraw." . I have all since risen to the highest eminenee - in their [We have been favoured with the following sketch 1 respective professions, and one of *finrifhas since ? the debate which Mak place in the Houseafter the : had the honour of a seat in this Haase. Of their" :lusion of the Public.] . ...1 talents the public would have been deprived, had this . . Mr. SHERIDAN declared, that s ince Ole. Right . illiberal law been in existence. I know well the effect . , on: Gentlest - inn had thought proper to enforce one of attempting to der side any class of me m I have trading Order, he had very strong intentions of en- seen it exemplified during along reside*Uthe West •cing.another--; which was, that the Committee of Indies ; and I know when men are supposed debased, ,dieaterovhich should sit every SatUrday, should - they become so in fact, and disgrace that society' iume its , duties.' }le desired id' knout' f i rOm the. winch, but for a cruel injustice, they mi lit' have .emme, whettiiir, in inch 'citii; thetifereliccortir. adorned. The supporters of the press oe VAStiye arquharson 4 epteition - th that C'orhfififilie4Outd - not' all men, to ba respected. Tie power of i iireskin . . ipercedc the necessity 'of the preient natation ? a free Government is as great as the power of-the s my I ' certa Stra M it is dram any who IV serve to ei the He lan out :my mor was late is es Hot MON time rest: cuts • k this visa Lim ant that • 16,11 that rupp whe take '11:1 then 2101 of t ex cl Ha Staff filrc JUd rest PE Far sup sword ►n a military 'despotisms let the utmost Cau tion and conciliation be used towards It. If the di lectors of the press were sought to be degraded, they wonid naturally become dissatisfied with the esta blished order of things ; and there was no foreseeing what the consequences might be of offending men in the possession of such a poweria instrument. Sir JOHN ANSTRUTHE,R was also a Bencher in Lincoln's Inn, but reprobated the present law ; he could not sufficiently admire the manly and in 'dependent speech of the Learned Gentleman who had just sat down, and whose example was such as to render all argument unnecessary. After what had passed, -he was convinced the law would be immedi ately rescinded ; it was, indeed, most obnoxious, whe ther he considered the object it had in, view, or the description of men whose exertions it went to impede —men among whom Addison and Steele had acted in their aay. Obnoxious as the law was, however, it was a curious fact that it proceeded from two men who had particularly boasted their friendship for the press—Mr. Henry Clifford was its father, and Lord Erskine its godfather I The• SOLICITOR GENERAL thought an ap plication ought to be made to the Judges in the first • instance, who had power to rescind the bye-law. Mr. CROKER highly disapproved of tha bye-law,, and hoped it would be rescinded ; he had no doubt,' indeed, that this would be the case, provided the • Right Hon. Gentleman's motion was withdrawn," which he did not think so shaped as to meet its object. I Mr. SHERIDAN in reply, declared, that any person who supposed he sought popularity on this occasion had been completely mistaken : his only ob ject was so redress injustice. The law of which he complained had been enacted two years ago, and the Gentlemen of Lincoln's Inn.did not want time, how-' ever they might have been deficient in inclination, to rescind it. An application to the Judges might have the effect of redressing individual injury ; but no body, except Parliament and the Benchers themselves, had the power of totally annulling the law itself. He was content, however, to withdraw his present mo tion, on the assurances which had been given him, that the law should be rescinded. He had attained his object ; he had drawn from all sides of the House a reprobation of the principle upon which this Law was first established. The motion was then withdrawn, on the under standing that the obnoxious Resolution should be re scinded.—Strangers were then re-admitted. ARMY ESTIMATES. Lord PALMERSTONE moved the order of the day for the House going into a Committee for the purpose of re-committing the Army Estimates. Sir T. TURTON considered that it would be quite a delusion on the public to go again into a Committee for the paltry saving which was now pro posed. The country had a right to expect much more important retrenchments. He could not bear to hear a system of 30 years war announced ; and he would much prefer that peace should resume its for mer current than that torrents of blood should conti nue to flow. He - considered that the great army, for which such large estimates were voted, existed, in a great measure, on paper ; and that we had not an efficient force like that which the House was led to suppose. ' The House then resolved itself into the Committee. Lord PALMERSTONE rose to explain the fur ther reductions which were prepared to be made on the Staff. In the eastern district it was proposed to make a reduction of one Lieutenant-General, which would still leave 8 Generals to command a force of! 20,000 men. In the Severn district there would be a reduction of one Lieutenant-General. In the home dis trict there would be a reduction of one Major-General, (Hear, hear, from the Ofzltotition), and then there would be five Generals to command 10,000 men. In North Britain there would be a reduction of one Lieutenant- General, and one Major-General, leaving still seven Generals over 11,000 men, a number greater in pro portion than in other districts, as was necessary from the troops being scattered over more ground. He then shewed, that there had been a regular diminu- 1 tion of the proportion of the Staff Officers to-the army for many years past. He concluded by moving his first resolution-- ,, That a sum of £457, 724, be granted for the expence of the Staff and Garrisons." Sir GEORGE WA R RENDE R said, that he prin cipally found fault with the manner in which those Staff Officers were proportioned to the different dis tricts. While. ten Generals had been appointed for 11,000 men in Scotland, there were only eight to command 21,000 men in the Eastern district. There was no greater number in the Kent or Sussex districts, although of the utmost importante. On the home Staffthere had been hardly any rettench - ment,although this was the department most objectionable. Officers were often put on the Staff who were completely inef ficient, and held the station as sinecures. It was often supposed, that instead of selecting Generals for dis tricts, the districts were appointed for the convenience of favourite Generals, whose head-quarters were at the places they wished to live at. Mr. CALCRAFT thought that on the home dis trict there should have been a saving much more COID siderable than in the reduction of one Major-General. He was afraid that the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Perceval) found. something in that Staff which he had not power to remove. There were two full Generals attached to it withoutany apparent necessity. Mr. WARDLE said, that in considering this ex penditure, he by no means meant to blame particu larly the present Administration, as the same profu sion prevailed under the last, and he was afraid would continue as long as a system of corruption was acted upon. When the enormous. estimates for barracks had been formerly voted (which had altogether cost the country near thirteen millions) it was said that they would cause a diminution, in the expellee of the Staff. This diminution, however, had not taken place. It was also said that the Barrack establishment would provide for Many half-pay Officer, but instead of that, the appointments were given to the favourite ser vants of those in power. He did not conceive the pre sent was a fair estimate, as it did not notice either the Volunteer Staff or the Ordnance Staff. The Staff ex pence for the home service was now nearly as great at when we had a great part of our population under arms, and our armies at home. The House seemed now aware of what he had been called a Jacobin last year for stating, that every economy should be practised, that did not interfere with the efficiency of the army. • He should ask, why these very lucrative 'situations were to be heaped on one individual (Ge- neratnrovmrigg) ? lie was Quarter Master Gene ral, for which he received above £4 a day ; he had a regiment of twcsbattalions, the 9th foot, which was at least £l6OO per annum, and then he was put upon the staff, 'at an expence of about £l3OO a year more. The Adjutant General was also put upon the staff. He conceived that both these men had sufficient ap pointments 'without getting their appointments on the staff as a sinecure. He said there was a charge of about £4 for each recruit to the recruiting staff. This charge appeared to him unreasonable. He conceived the estimates much higher than there was occasion for. General HOPE stated the length of service of the .Quarter Master General and of the Adjutant Gene ral ; and that there had been a promise to them of being put on the staff if any other Generals were ad ded to it. General TARLETON expressed his opinion that no diminution ought to take place in tile cavalry, which he thought was among our best means of de fence. In the Home District there was the Coni mander in Chief, the Duke of Cambridge, Lord Chat ham, Sir H. Burrard, and a number of other Gen.. rals. He thought the number might bear some r:. duction. Mi. P. MOORE defended the late Administra tion, whose system of economy went on the grand scale of confining the expenditure of the country 'thin its inc trot, This was a principle of more im portance than nicely measuring whether £l3OO or il4OO a year Should be , given to any particular officer. As to the try of ;evasion, which was set up by the Administration which preceded them, he cow ceived it a bugbear invented to impose upon the cowl , try. That bugbear. however,had now lost its terrors. He believed that of the estimates the same thing might be said as was once said of a lawyer's bill, It you take off a third from the beginning, and another third from the end, what is left will be still too much." An Amendment was moved to take off from the estimate proposed the sum of £8686, being the ex pence of the two Generals en the home staff, who were conceived to be quite unnecessary. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped the Committee would not suppose that the pre sent Administration had be,en more profuse ie this re spect than those who preceded them. The estimates they now presented were, in fact, reduced estimates on a reduced Staff. Indeed, an Honourable Gentle man (Mr. Wardle) on the other side, did not find fault with his Majesty's Ministers ; but attributed every thing he complained of to a vicious system which had been long established. He was, however, ready to acknowledge, that the reduction had been very considerable in the year 1806, ender the late Administration, and that the number of the Generals on the Staff had been then reduced from 142 to 70. At present there were but 59 Generals upon the Staff, and though some districts might perhaps be over loaded, others might have too few Generals, yet, upon the whole, he was persuaded that the House would consider the present estimate fair and reasonable. There had been a reduction of one Lieutenant-General and one Major-General on the Staff. He was ready to admit that Lieutenant-Gene rals might perform the duty as well as full Generals upon the Home District. But Lord Heathfield had been appointed during the Administration of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite ; and he would ask, whether it would be right, when by the course of promotion in the service, an officer attained the rank of a full General, he should be deprived of his ap pointment on the staff ? As to the appointment of the Duke of Cambridge, he could not see any reason why one of the King's sons should not be employed in the home district, in a situation so near his Majes ty's person ; and upon all these grounds he saw no reasonable objection to the Estimate before the Come mitte. - Mr. WHITBREAD animadverted upon the prac tice of the Right Hon. Gentleman, when he could derive no argument from his own deeds, in referring to the deeds of his predecessors in office. But all that the Right Hon. Gentleman had said, as to the comparative number cif General Officers at the vari ous periods to which he referred, had nothing to 4o with the question, which was simply whether two full Generals were necessary to-be employed in the Home District ? He was as ready as the Right Ho nourable Gentlernan . to agree to any thing that might ccmtribute to 'do honour to his Majesty ; but he must contend that it was not necessary that the officer employed to bear the gold stick, should be a full Genera or of high rank, or even an officer on the sat- He was convinced too, that if the matter werettibetepresented to his Majesty, he would not consenter.the appointment of an officer of either description with the additional pay. There were no full Generals on the Staff in the year 1806. Neither the Duke of Cambridge nor Lord Heathfield had any duties to perform entitling, them to their resnec tive salaries of £4OOO per annum ; so that, in fact, they enjoyed sinecures to the amount of 8 16 , 000 a-year. The Hon. Gentleman also objected to the placing of the Adjutant and Quarter -Masters-Gene- ral upon tbe Staff, with an augmentation of pay from £5OO to £l6OO per annum ; and upon all the grounds he had stated, was inclined to vote for the Amend ment. Sir G. WARRENDER explained. Mr. HUSKISSON thought it better to pay the Officers on the Gold Stick out of the public purse than to place them.on the military establishment. He con cluded by making a few observations on what had recently beep said on what had fallen from him in the course of the present Session. Sir THOMAS TURTON was surprised at the Mai Mi- Hon. Gentleman's taking part with his ijesty's nisters on such an occasion, which he thought incon sistent with his late professions. Mr. HUSKISSON, in explanation, defended his political conduct, as perfectly consistent with his pro fessions. Captain PARKER thought Government most competent to decide on the question before the House. He would, however, at .a future day call their atten tion to the situation of Officers of the Navy, who he thought were Wily, dealt by at present. Lord PAL RiSTONE. made an animated reply, and refuted the , imputatioa, *gym out against him.. lifter which a division took *cep wbessttbe_ Ilvsere—For the amt 61--Agaiest it 99 4 01etaiL rsity 38. " The House adjourned at Oaeo'clock (this morn' ing.)