Star. — London, England, 1817-02-01 00:00:00

ATO *phut the 'Home of Coin MON, did not exercise and txliatist every that could be drawn from an ex econiimy, to ay-I.i such an evil as h alluded f— (Hear, hear )- An iber (Mr. Bankes) on the formet , that neither the debt, ni)r the taxes were the causes of the prevailing argument for hiding this opinion lost extraordinary ; it was this—that , ear 17 millions of taxes had been 'Ada of the people. Now this Ho • happened to be both wrong in his deduction. The House well knew ,ding it totally impossible to collect she Property Tax in the current par's returns, allowed the half year's er until the present year.—(Hear.) of temporary accommodation to the !cessary one ; but it was any thing of the claim. It, however, instead :ponernent of collection, it had been, as an abolition of the arrear, and that induced no relief, what would it prove Tioration of the country had become Ire of the times more rapid in ha operation of the relief which hid been counteract it t ( Hear.) His Honou• it. Curwea) had on the last night which reduced the effect of his :xcelknt speech—he said that which e,o abroad uncontradicted, namely, nary beuevolence of all ranks out of if their felluw countrymen, did not than two hundred thousand pounds. tobert) kneti it to be infinitely greater, every sentiment, and of all tituations and lute forward, and exerted their best sufferers, indeed their philanthropic • bounded - by their means. (Haar.) age sums publicly known, there were _lnd local subscriptions, exclusive of consisted of distributing food, raiment, of file, to the poor, at reduced prices the numerous employments afforded classes in different parts of the coon commiseration for their situation, :y for their works all these most , must have amounted to large ens, relief.—( hear, hear). —Though this in strict order of debate, to talk abject of economy, yet he could not" little on that point. He would first iy. Now, though a reduction in this Ask service would throw out of ens iber of men, who deserved well of their reduction could take place without its :ompsniment of hardship; but the tact was, in the army could not be effected Jp that system Of foreign policy to Minis:era clung with 'fond affection.— effected with an admission on the that the army was maintained for poses—either to contradict our solemn • we would not interfere in the inter : nations of the 'Continent, that we y our military strength to maintaia - A of Iliamary, or rather of Iles not make war against the people to spirit of freedom, and by our own acts • the stedfast principles of our own ,ution.—(Hear, hear.) Or if it did not mat have been reinforced and upheld to rising indignation of the British nation, aroused by the enormous expenditure of • fine energies were so grossly misap- If the House. meant to redress the of the people, the smallest military ment that was ever maintained would sficieut for all domestic purposes ; but if in to afford this redress, the largest it that their hearts could wish would. _ found *lolly and entirely insufficient silence the voice of the country.—(Near, hear.) next general head of retrenchment to which he advert, was the Abolition of Sinecures, useless ,'and Pensions.- Here again all the argument at one side ; for when you hinted the necessity touching those delightful annuities, you were at met by the bugbear of Revolation—(Hear.)— Gendemen for a mlment suppose, that those conferred for real merit, or that they were , else than payments for past devotion, and for future t The Civil List was anothir of economy, to which he would direct the at of the House. It had been well said. in the speech for the Address, that the eyes id the . were now fixed on the proceedings of that, 'toe, and towards no proceeding were they more 'ugly directed than to those which animadverted the Civil List, particularly to that part of it ig to the Royal expenditure, than which there be nothing more objectionable. The Speech, lm the Throne, last Session, pointedly pledged Uovernment to a rigid adherence to economy, yet immediately atter this pledge, to the disap- Lament and astonishment of the country, the List was .found with an addition of £etlio,ooo, aheady enormous charges, and Wit accumula :tpenditure was incurred lor the support of an aded household, with duplicate offices attached it to an extent that never before existed—(llear.)— , *as nothing which produced so much pain indignation, as the fact, that at a period when Stive►eign in Europe was advised to dintinish titenditure, the Piitice Regent of England, who, ut all, required that extension of pageantry, . have been advised to adopt it. Another point *ls he would glance, was that unfortunate, mar aud selfish policy, of endeavouring to obtain a 'Poly fur our commerce. lie was always of ~n that trade should be free and unshackled ; it been so, the mercantile world would not have to complain of the,paralyeing effects of the Conn System of exclusion, which was, in fact, but aterpait of the absurd policy that this country been the first to act upon. 'These were his op.' and as an independent Member of Parliament, felt it to be his duty to express them._(lieu, )--and to comes, his melancholy impression as ~ing condition of•tlse country, if some and radlcal alteration in the conduct of did nut take place. It was in vain for to say that the eta was transitory ; there VIIi Its the complexion of the times ti show that' this temporary character —(liar)--or, whist; was still more lorebNling Ira they had any.serions intention of departing from their fatal rule of actirin. 44 When we," continued Sir Rnbert, impress up in them the necessity of economy and retrenchment, they (the Ministers) answer, $ Oh ! certainly, but leave it to os'."—Well, it was left with them, and what was the result ? Why, that they did any thing but fulfil the promise they had made. What conG• dence then could be placed in a set of men, who, with retrenchment in their mouths, commenced, as the very first thing, to make an increase of offices, and never departed from their course until compelled to turn round by a vote of that HOlse What fur ther assurance was there now that they would keep their promises better than they had last year observed them ?—(hear, hear.)—The only change that they had adopted was the accession to Administration of the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, (Mr. Canning) who was in himself one of the most flagrant and shameful instances of the profligate and wasteful profttsion of his Majesty's Ministers. (Hear, hear, fiord she Opposition Baselut.) He, who Accep ted an enormous and sinecure situation as Ambassa dor to the kingdom of Portugal, to represent his S. vereign in a Court where there was no resident King—to Spire away at Lisbon, although the King of Portugal was then, as he has been ever since, a resident in his Brazilian territory. (Hear, hear.) — Was such a place-making system in conformity with the pledge of retrenchment, or was it not in open vio lation of any such intention ?a.-(Hear, Hear, Hear.) the Address was then brought up, agreed to, and ordered to be presented by the whole House. On the motion of the CittacaLcon of the EXCISE-- taut:ft, the Prince Regent's Speech was ordered to be taken into consideration tomorrow. Mr. CANNING presented Papers relative to the origin and tetmination of the war in Nepaul.—Or dered to lie on the table.—Adjourned. IMPORTANT PROCEEDINGS OF THE COMMON HALL. Yesterday a Common Hall was held at Guildhall, for the purpose of petitioning Parliament for a Re form in the Commons House—tor the abolition of unmerited Places and Pensions—and for Retrench. ment and Economy in every branch of the State. The Hall was not so crowded as usual, is consequence of greater pains having been taken to exclude all bet, Liverymen. The Comrann Crier having read the Requisition, The LORD MAYOR Came forward, and said, he had called them together in consequence of a Requisi tion, signed by a great number of respectable Livery. men. He was quite sure they were all aware of the importance of the subject whicn they were met to discuss—that they would give it the best considera tion in Their power, and not suffer themselves to be carried away by any feelings but those for the benefit of the country. Mr. DAVIS said, the Requisition which had just been read to them, and which was signed by a num "her of their respectable Body, fully explained the ob ject of their meeting. They had met many times hi, that Hall; but at no time, and under no circum /stances, which he had either seen or r:ad ct, bad there been an occasion of deeper interest than the , present. Whenever they had - heretotore assembled, their oSjects had been important, -and were always distinguished by the moderation, understanding, and constitutional principles, which pervaded the Common Hall. But this Meeting derived more than ordinary interest front what had taken place within a few days. He was sure all of them would feel utter abhorrence and detestation at any one lifting up- his hand against the Chief Magis . rate of the State— ( few irirrrs). To feel the contrary would be of most mischievous tendency. He knew the Livery felt the value of 'the Constitution; and were determ'oed to stand by it to the last extremity. Such was the way to obtain a redress of grievances l and the only way in which they would be able to effect it. (Applause.), Mach as he fekthe distresses of the country, yet he did not despair of it ; for be was assured it still pos. sessed an energy sufficient to bring itself through all its difficulties. It was not his intention to irritate any individual by his statement ; but it was necessary that all should know the evils under which the noun-' try laboured ; and that the way in which they were to be remedied should be pointed out. It , was noto rious that these evils wereia large military establish-, meals and, a profusion of unmerited places and pen sions ; but a defect in the Representation of the people in Parliament was the grand cause of them all: that was the baneful source whence all our evils for the last twenty or thirty years bad sprung. Let them recollect for a moment what would have been our en viable situation it that House had given the Ministers 'the lair and honest advice which the Penple expected from it. If that House had been constituted as it ought to be, and as be trusted it soon would be, we might have been in the highest and most fortunate situation that ever a Country was placed in. If Mi nisters had not had it all their own way, by their con stant majorities, they might then have said, we had been brought to this distress by not following their scheme:; but they had not that defence.-- If the people. brie/ever, were all united on the pre sent most important subject, it would be impossible that they could fad in obtaining their object. He had taken the liberty of preparing certain Resolutions, which, if adopted, would meet the evils of which they complained ; and, like truth in all other cases, mast ultimately prevail.—He they read his Resolu tions. As follow I. " That this Comma Hall, pardcipating in the enesampled distress, and deeply conunisseratieg tin 'aerials of their fel low subjects, more especially these of the middle and lower classes, hielit their beendee duty to present to Parliament an unexaggerated statentent of these allotting calamities. it. " That the depressed sheaths of the Agricukural interest,; the decline, allitOK beyond priestlier, of Trade and Commerce; the consequent want of iireipley for our Labourers, Mundane :us, and Artisans; together with Outgrew advance ist the price of the Ant retitle of bosun sustenance, are bet put of the Ulla- Cubics under which the Community now Whew. & " 'that the pressing demo& constantly mods open the le. ' dewy of the Country, ti motion, arising irons the prodigious amount of the National Debt—the enormous and ueconetito- Weal Military iirsabbsbnients—the profusion of Sirescure Pimp and Knotted, and a lung seam of lavish expenduvre cif the Public hinacy, have altogether produced a combination el evil, of sole ntagostatir, all to netts to the naiads ot this Comm= liall the greatest alarm and dismay. a. I bat it vs net necessary to enter more aniatuely Into the Ft presentation of them complicated tact.; they are too 00tortostil and tuo,kernly Isis to be datieder pail sod—they arh hoot the curter, dependent, and inadequate mama the id the People b rartismost—i.the soft ilium gorberlismbeAtieto. era* &Mtn in tho House of Commons—the nu mter of Mem. bees lteturned by the influence of the Ministers of the Crown, !) Peers and Wall h 8 • by that I I•otse re27C•I b: the keptesentative of the feeling., the optounts, and the inte rests of the People. S. 44 That we, disclaiming all wild and vlsintiary plans Of Re form, are not ignorant of the nature. nor tits:ll , 4l , f of tht vale.% of our glorious Constitution, Iti theoty the stthl vie teta.chle-s rah bit:on of humus wisdom, the adnt rat on a:.,lc .vy of surtounding 'tattoo., we therefore &Are to .We the 11,ots, of Commons, in coulomb y with pure Constitutional princpies, a fair and honest organ of the Public voice, ezerclsiog a collude!. ing power over the Servants of the Crown, and not an instru ment in their hands to oppress the People. " 6. That, to accomplish this important end, it Is essential that the Els etive Franchise should be more extended—that No• roughs, depopulated :sad corrupt, should be prevented the exer cise of their pernicious influence—that eligible plans should be devised and enacted, securing as much as possible the purity and eedom of Electloos--and that the Sit:i.tg-uf Parliament should be linlited, as formerly, to a period not ez;eeditig three years. '• 7. That the adoption of such raeasores cur alone, in our opinion, rescue the ctanitry irons bs present (b.:reseed situat'on —fruiter it to its tormer prosperity—and permanently secure to the people all the ►lcssings which their venerab'e ancestors be queathed them in that Constitution for which many ut them su ffer:4 and bled. " It. That Petitions be presented to both Houses of Parlia ment, praying them to take these matters into their taint serious coinsitieration, urging them, by the responsibility of their high station, by the love they profess to bear to the Sovereign and to the Country, by the heavy afflictions and patient endurance of a loyal and magnanimous people, to recommend and enforce a speedy reduction of oar unconstitutional Military Establiihment, the abolition of all useless place:, sinecures, and pensions, the utmost retrenchment In every branch of the pub! e expenditure, the ex:elision of the elective franchise, the 'prevention of the pernicious la _mice of depopulated and corrupt Borough., the aecoriug the freedom of election, and limiting the duration of Parliament to a period notexceedi.ig Three Years." —Mr. 1). said, he would n .t enlarge en the grand and important topics contained in the Resoli; ;1 but it they could accomplish them, he would predict that they would have very liale then to complain of ; for a House of Commons sa constituted would con suit only the feelings and good. of the people, and the world at large would have to bless its ezertion . . Mr. Ewer said, his post was something like a Sinecure, to ha►e to second Resolutions so well drawn up, and argued with so much ability and mo deration by his worthy Friend. The Livery had seen, during the last 20 or 30 years, many trying scenes ; but still, whether abused or applauded,. he had found them a.Body of true, loyal. and constitu tional men. His worthy Friend had pointed out. what they all but too much felt, the accumulated distress:of the country ; and they should all consider, that whether they were for or against Reform, they had an important stake each in the prosperity of the country. Their present object, in which ail should join, was to End out a real cure for the evils which threatened the country. Their enemies could n o t now say, that this was not die time for Reform ; they could only say." that some deluded individuals, who professed that as their object. had created a riot in some parts of the country. But if it should be said that the People were indifferent about Reform, hs would advise those who said so to a stsblish Paro li - chial Meetings against it, and then they would be Able to collect the tine ses.e. of the country on the' subject of Parliamentary Reform. That question had now come to a point, which would cause it to be considered ; and if it should be said there were obstacles and difficulties in the way of its accom-' pliihment, he would answer, that there surely was intelligence enough in Parliament to overcome those 'LUC:ill:its. The time was come when they must fairly enter on the discussion of this important subject. The first five Resolutions being put, mere carried unanimously. Upon the preposition of the 6th, which suggested the necessity of triennial Parliaments— Mr. HVNT stood forward, but was received with such an overwhelming noise of groans, hisses, ans. other marks of disapprobation, as to oblige the Cord Mayor to address himself to the Livery. _ HIS LORDMIP thought that, in requesting their at tention tuevery Speaker, at the opening of the Meet ing, he had read in the countenance and manner of all present a pledge that the great question under *their consideration would be determined upon by fair and impartial reasoning, and not by an attempt to cry any particular individual down.— (Near.) The Assembly might, if it pleased, try to tire out a Mem ber by clamour, but he (the Lord,Mayor) should not ba tired out by the Meeting in the dische of his duty, were he to wan there until midnight . -( Bravo.) Mr. HUNT proceeded—He thanked the Lord Mayor for his impartiality, and stated, that thougk he had cordially agreed with all the former Resolu tions, he must dissent from the ooe which had just been moved. This, however, was as to-one word only, and upon the principle of this word he would make a stand to the last. He had, on various occa sions, been present at Meetings for the purpose of ob taining a Parliamentary Reform, and he always con sidered those Meetings as pursuing that object upon constitutional grouch alone. He for himself decla red, that whether he had silently raised his hand, or used his, humble exertions in favour of Reform, he had Uniformly done it upon constitutional principles. It was upon this principle that he conceived, and he trusted all would be convinced, that aaamal Parlia ments were not only the most ancient but the most agreeable to the Constitution. (Bravo and him:.) He hoped the question would be argued dispassion ately and conscientiously, and as it was his object to feel the pulse Of the City of London, he would pro pose,an Amendment to the Resolution. The Citi zens of London, as the first great Commercial Body of the kingdom, should be the first to declare their sentiments upon questions affecting the interests of the country, and now they bad a fair opportunity afforded them. Meetings for a Reform in Parliament were now held in every quarter—in the East, West, North, and South. The people of Scotland, had come forth in numbers, and the inhabitants of the Sister Kingdom were bursting forth with their Petitions. (Hear.) That venerable Patriot and Rtformist, Major Cartwright, had ascertained that no less than 500,000 persons had already petitioned for Reform (Brave.) At none of the Meetings, however, from which. Petitions emanated, was there the slightest allu sion to triennia/Parliaments. No—all were tOr Annual Representation, and Election by Ballot— (Hear, bear.) He would give up to minutia in debate at all times; but he would not surrender the principle; and. con tended, therefore, that if. on the present occasion, the Citizens of London differed in opinion with half a million of their countrymen, unanimity would be de stroyed, and the great object of all their hopes and exertions defeated. In fact, to differ with so large a portion, of the community, upon this great question, would be but to ttaft4 the bonnet ti dtsto;d, •and to ' overthrow die very principle which• had been raised as the general standard.—( gravy, and hisses.) history riddle country. lie contenc'ed, decidedly proved to us th it annual P.iriettrealits were most known among us; and it a 'mail •ty had ciettrived to teeth:id) Septenniel Perham( ntr, what security was there that situil it cerruption v oald not add seven more to the system ?—(Sheuit 0 . 1 Bravo ) lie (Mr. H.)ldesp:sed the abuse which h -d been heap id upon hint by the veael press, in order to put him down ; but he would feailessly say, eh -e being actuated by no other motives than an leeriest principle, anJ love to his country, that those who pfepesed triennial Parliaments had no other view than to disunite the Reformers. —(Clamour, and cries of No, no! In. 9er !) It was no uncominon ' trick, he said, to cry a mart down by clamour; but he should ever conceive this arose from a had cause, and t' ose opposed ta hirel lt could not, it appe tred, st an d on th e i r own legs— [Here the speaker le e s l o udly hosed by a Gentlemen close by.] i-s Thy Gentlemen ( sa id elr. Hunt) who opened the debate tr.ll anot h er e h ° hi sse d hi m , th he wes ia consequence a saspicious character. I err.v tell thee c idineers of that Gentleman% erg , ' neat, tt he is e u suspicious."—(l.aughter an•l aiplause.) He had fieers of the unanimous voireof the People being attended to by Parliament in the ca:e of the Property Tar—but the Gentlemen who had stated it fareot to mention that uoon questien where even more genera unanimity hail preveiled, the twice of the pro 1e was despised—he n.e.int the case of the Corn Bill—(Hear.) Here the interest Of the great landholders prevail:d, and arn.d the clash of arms and the point r) bayonets, the reeestire was carried. The late contemptible aitemet at distur!Aenee he saw wis attempted to lie Laid held of, it an Argument to prevent the objects of Retortn, hut he trusted that the sober exertions of every good man in the com munity, would serve to remove this idle pret:nce, and prove that trivial acts of misconduct were not to be attributed to tee nation at large—(Hear, hear.) —He adverted to the circumstvice of the nu rieruus Petitions presented a few evenings since, by Lord Cochrane and Sir Francis Burdett, upon the sideiect of Parliamentary Reform, many of which were re.. jected upon the ground of their contenting " strong language;" others for not expressing suf f iciently a definitive object. Now lie would ask whether pray ing fora Referee, annual Parliaments, ueivers it suf frage, and election by ballot, were not definitive ob jects ? As to the rejections on account of strong lan euege,he had only to remark, that in the Petition from Bristol, there were these remarkable expressions— " that the present House of Comatons was not a fair representation of the people in Parlietnent, but that it was chiefly ruled by the tools of a tyrannical oli garchy of borough-mongers!" Vet this very Peti tion was declared by Mr. Vansittart not to be enti tled to the serious consideration of the House.— (Loreglare and applanse.)—He concluded by meeting, as an Amendment, to be inserted in the Resolution,. that the sitting cif l'erlimnent be limited to one year." ° (ShOuts of Bravo! interrupted with groans and hisses, followed the speech of Mr. Hunt. Mr. MITCHELL, in seconding the A =admin . , agreed with Mr. Hunt, that those who propo..ed triennial Parliaments, wiseett to divide the refer men. (Him: and Applause.) By the triennial da:- trine, the corrupt Members of the House would have two years of transgressien and one of reperatinn, and it was therefore that he argued for the !neer corer'. tutional mode of annual Parliements. He had heat Mr. Weidman (pirate, in the Common Council, tee authorities and opinions of Lords Perymond, Citet• ham, and even Mr. Fox himself, upon Parlia 'penury Reform, hit now he would break away from the pure Reformists. He was not, .however, sur prised at this, for even Mr. Fox himself had declared, when a Member of the Whig Club, in 1797, that nothing thou of Reform would induce him to accept a place or pension under Government, and yet, not withstanding this sine qua non, he afterwards became Secretary of State, andArlinked at Retorm—(:then clangour and disapprobation) —He did not entice;..! that • immediate Reform ould give iinmediete relief, but' it would correctihe Alarming groan!) of evil andebuse. [Here the speaker was making some further allu sions to the proceedings of the Common Council, are to the elective franchise in America, when he was interrupted by loud clamour, and the Loan MAYOR informed him that he was out of order, inasmuch its it was not the practice to advert to the proceedings of another Court of the Corporation, when a parti cular subject was under discussion ] Mr. Mirclicee (in continuation) attributed all the evils of the country to the conduct of the Whigs, who endeavoured to split the Rcfortners, and by p:ipular means to get themselves into power.— (Loud cries of Of 01:) —Why, he would ask, were all the Officers of Corporate Bodies chosen mina illy, bet to preserve purity ? Were not the City Officers, the Common Council, and even the Lord Mayor himself, chosen in this way; and in the latter case was nut the good resulting from it strikingly apparent ? (Liar, hear.) The Livery of London, he contended, shooed ask fur annual Parliaments; and if they were thus consistent, their judgment would be considered as a test for the nation's conduct.—(The cries of Questian, and of, q; now became so vehement, that /I'.l more could be !nerd ) Mr. Weentuee came forward, and said he should have feared to trespass on the time of the Livery, if he had not been encouraged by the patience which had been exercised its hearing the speeches of the Ho nourable Geatleman who had preceded him: There was one thing which he'would give the worthy Gen tleman Who had last spoken credit for, th it he had avowed the same sentiments in the Hell which he had avowed elsewhere. As for the Mover of the Amend. ment (Mr. Hunt) his tone was very different front whet it had been in another place . lie now treated th e Livery with respect and submission; in another place, he had celled them m y rm id on: ; he had made attacks upots i:tiividuals who were not present to en- A wer them, and grounded upon utter falsehoods.. That person had asserted that he (Mr. Witinimatr) had sold himself to the Governmene( Grits of 1119.) — He would only put it to the sense of the Con n on Hall, whether they thought either the objet or effect of such proceedings could be anion—or whether th e ; unanimity which most necessarily preside, success could be obtained by vilifying all piiblic men and bodies of men. As to the Petitioners of Reform who differed from him, he (Mr.Weithman) had never cast the slightest rtgeetwa on therm He had considered 'tat t icy woe' nice esgrieved—lebouring to.der Nal pct the people has j i o hst douse di ink resource n,t , a system of Om to which he t Honourable 'Ater& e vening had said. ( diich it tamed, I distress, and his a was in itself mos during the last y , taken from the 2orable Member I l et as well as his :f l at Ministers, rim the amount of l ecount of last yes wear to stand or ' was a sort (4 people, and a nec bit an extinction o o f being a p.istpon was insinuated, at this abolition prod but that the deteri from the pressure effect than the ope 'graded to coon ' Friend (MI sai d one •thing otherwise eacelle ou 6 tit not to gal that the pecuniar doors, in behalf of amount to more tl Now he (Sir Robe for people Of ever, , descriptions came energies for the su feeling was only —]Besides the lard r several private any I those which consis • and the articles of . —together with th to the labouring cl , try, more out of ▪ than of necessity laudable efforts t r very extensive rel t was not the time, t touch on the subje r avoid saying a lift ▪ allude to the army. branch of the pub pinyment a numbs vicntry; yet no re t partial accompenii ▪ that a reduction i t without giving op t which our Minis ► Is could be ouly part of Ministers, r one of two purpos t declaration, that i • nal policy of the would 'not apply the new doctrine 4 f that we would na I keep down a spiri I belie and subvert I tuitions Revolutio r mean this, it must '• keep down the rise f which was arouse • thalwrety Whose I •lieds—( Heat.) " grievances c e peace establishme be amply sutficien they did not meal war establishment f the end, be fa o &deuce the voi e be met general e Oild advert, wa Places, And Pepsi ear at one side ; teaching those • runt by the I d Gentlemen keg were confet it ay thing else the stainers for futi ranch of ItCOllOll titian of the Hi t 'Paling speech fc o eple were now it a.moe, and lowa e troo-fy 5 directed t you the Civil 'rating to the R ould be nothing a 'um the Throw ?t e Government 4 " yet immedia itittment and lei) List was 1c its aheady eon expenditure • ' ;ended househe it 40 Ana:tent re seas instil sad indignation, , cry Stiveeeign is expenditure, au of all, req y • ld have been 4 which he woo! F W. and selfish .poly fur of ''lll.ll that trait had been so, tk to complain "rid System r counterpart o been firs) 1, and as an felt it to be )—and to C 4 tie approachn diate and r were, did in to say that an the co al el this trot