Star. — London, England, 1822-03-14 00:00:00

1.• 1 I f ~{'' I I :~, y ' 't ~~►~. ~J I . j i T ~ 1!1' 1F7 77 I to t h e proper authority. If the evidence fore the Commissioners bore out the in the House, some remission of °tight to be greeted. lie did not, say anything on that point. He rose glad the Hon. Member made the distinct the period of his ersinstion orthe ' which the Commissioners visited it. period the greatest correctness prevailed in every part of the jail. Mr. DICKINSON, after adverting to Mr. Burton i si Report of the jail in ISIS, defended the conduct of the Somersetshire Magistrates, and said they were as incapable of savageness or inhumanity of feeling as any men in existence. Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that he rose in .otrse queace of having beep so strongly alluded to by 'the Member (Mr. Roam} Hew as unwilling to re• mein entirely silent on that subject ; bat he was still soave nawilfing m go intothe details of that question then. There was a specific motion on that subject to come on for discussion, and it was quite irregular to anticipate, that minion. The evidence taken before the Commissioner/ had: been ordered to be printed, and was expected to lie laid on the table very soon: . —lt would, therefore, be more regular to postpone any discussion until Hon. Members should have an opportunity of examining an 4 retorting to that evi dence. ,He cqpfessed that he reatFthb Report of the Commissioners with feelings of the deepest regtenH (I/ear, Bear).—With respect to the pirtietiler stances of misconduct in the Governor oftheoail, he entertained the same opinion which all other Hon. Members entertained. He thought the treatment of the three persons instanced in the Report most cruel, particularly the person at whose head a pistol was pointed, by him who ought to administer comfort and relief—(Hear, hear!). —It was impossible to read over that Report without feelings of indignation and disgust at the conduct of him who was the author of! those cruelties—(Hear, kear).—But those feelings of indignation, however strong and reasonable, ought not to hurry the House into any censure on the Mn.. gistrates, until they could hate the evidence before them. What he rose for was, to entreat the House to•attspend their judgmeut 'omit those Papers Would be laid before it. With respect to Mr. Haat, the Circumstances should be very strong to induce him (Mr. Poll so go into any discussion on his case then, particularly as a specific motion was to be made in his favour. He inquired into the statement made with regard to Mr. Hunt, and found that he occu pied two rooms in the piison. One room next to him was appropriated to the use of two persons who waited on Mr. Hurst, and through whose room he had the privilege of walking into the yard. Under all the circumstances of the case, he did not think that the Magistrates were influenced by any un worthy motives. lion. Gentlemen ought, in justice to the Magistrates, to read the evidence. It would be found that the Magistrates did all in their power to afford Mr. Hunt every possible comfort. They made several alterations in the prison for his conve nience. If the house considered the local situation of the jail, it would be seen that no blame was to at tach to the Magistrates, and that they were not ac tuated by any unworthy motive to inflict severity of puiiishment. He understood that the present High Sheriff for the County of Somerset had taken on him self the responsibility of rendering everything satis factory to Mt. Hunt, and admitting his friends to him on the same footing as had been before the cause of complaint. The Right Hon. Gentleman then read extracts from the Commissioners' Reports, stating, " that great pains had been taken to render the jail as commodious as possible, and that the laudable ex ertion of the Magistrates was attended with success." Ile had written to the Clerk of the Peace of that Chunty, to know what measures were adopted by the Magistrates in consequence of the Report of the Com missioners. He received an ans" er, that the Magis trates had appointed a Committee to inspect the jail, and that the Committee would report very soon ; so that it was certain the Report of the Commissioners was under the consideration of the Magistrates. He would admit that there was some neglect on the part of the Magistrates--(/tear, hear)—but that might be accounted for from the confidence they reposed in the Governor, whose conduct had deserved the admira tion of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Buxton). He would refer to the Report, in order to shew that the Magistrates bad acquiesced in the character given by the Hon. Gentleman to the Governor. The Hon. Member him self placed confidence in that Governor, who had come from the hulks with a good character. The Right lion. Gentleman then cited the opinion of Sir J. P. Acland on the conduct of the jailer, and that from that, and the Report of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Buxton), the Magistrates had been deceived in consequence of those representations. After compli menting the Gentlemen of the County, who, without having pay or reward, had undertaken so much trouble in the Commission of the Peace, and who had exerted their Commissions with so much zeal, and honesty, and independence, he thought it not too much to implore the House to suspend their judgment of the conduct of those Magistrates, until they had read the evidence on which the Report was founded. Mr. BENNET said, that no one was more ready than himself to retract his opinion, if he had found it to be wrong. When he introduced the case of Mary Cuer, he did say it was a case of unparalleled cruelty. He was still inclined to avow that opinion, and to say most di*inctly that it was a case of ex- 1 treme tyranny. He did not charge the Magistrates ' of the County with that, because her sufferings lasted only two days, and it could not reach their notice ; but he accused them for their general conduct in not snaking more particular inquiries when they saw the prisoner in irons. He considered the Visiting Magis trates unfit for their situations, and lie would take care to move that House to address his Majesty to leave those Magistrates dismissed from the Commis sion of the Yeace. He repeated that he passed no general censure on the County Magistrates. lie knew the Gentlemen of the County did take on themselves ,blesome offices and very laborious duty, without , ard or expectation. The Visiting Magistrates the objects of his censure, and he would say were unfit for their situations ; and if the evi dence which was laid before them, and which was rdered to be printed, bore him out, he would move • t heir removal. Ir.HUME observed, that lie said the Magistrates builty of cruelty tow4ds the prisoners, and respect The _ _ to observe, ;bitiAkinclia wlgrimim-w — °re : th4 Houk, it was stittitrthit 114111011.attd siguistions had been signed by tiks-Judget. He had seen those rules in their original form, did could My that there were two or three among theta not fit for any jail — (Rear, hear—But he cguld say that these'rileswere eat off by the Judges,,Nao then signed the remain der. He could say that :the rules and regulations which were signed by the Judges and sent down,were the best that could postlbly be devised for the admi- I aistration of any prism. He rose merely on account of a name which had been introducecrin conction, with those rules,, and by which it was said they were , sanctioned. He could say that the rules which met the approbation of the Judges, were as good as could possibly have been devised. The Petition was brought up, and laid on the table. JOINT POSTMASTERS-GENERAL. Lord NOLMANBY said, it was not without a considerable share of difficulty and diffidence that he could at any time prevail on himself to bring joy question of his before the House. That difficulty would then be greatly increased if the motion which he would submit to the House had anything of an invidious oe personal nature. The question which he was. about to intrude did not involve any of those hardships, which belonged to other situations. It had not for its object the discharging of humble servants who had spent their life in the laborious duties of their office. His motion did. not involve a charge against any individual ; on the contrary, no praise could be too high to bestow on those individuals who had the conduct of the business of the Post Of fice. Every one whose business led hint to an inter course with the active officers at the head of that establishment experienced the greatest attention,cour test., aid politeness. His object was not to trench on the salaries or emoluments of those officers, but his motion was against the keeping up of the expensive and useless place of Joint Postmaster-General. He did not attribute any blame to his Majesty's M i n isters for supporting those appointments. Jobs of that kind were created and continued by every Adminis tration. One set ofPinisters were as likely to sup port them as another. His opinion was, that the pre sent difficulties and distresses of the country called loudly for the speedy abolition of them—(flear).—.. The division took place in the reign of Queen Anne. In :hewing that the duties of the office might, with out ant difficulty, be performed by one individual, he thought that the means of proof were very consi derablylightened by the circumstance of one of them having been included in the Sinecure Bill. However, be might appeal to the notoriety of the fact, that the business of the Post Office would not be impeded if there were no Postmaster at all; but be did not go the length of saying that there should be do Post master—on the contrary, he felt the value of having a person of high name at the head of such a depart ment. But why have two persons in the office as Joint Postmasters? Would it be said that the collec tion of the revenue of the department must not be entrusted to one person, but there must be a check upon him in the shape of a second Postmaster ? The Finance Committee, in 1817, indeed, appeared to sanction this notion, which, in his mind, conveyed an imputation that no individual ought to lie under. The Committee said that it was not fit to leave the trust to be discharged by one person. And why not leave it to one person? If it was right to act upon the principle of distrust in one instance, why not ap ply -it to all cases ?—why not introduce a second Treasurer of the Navy, or of any caber public de partment where a valuable trust was confided to a single individual? He felt the necessity of confining the duties to one person, r ather because it appeared from the evidence of M r. Palmer, who would ever be regarded as a great public benefactor, that the per sons were usually changed upon a change of Minis try, and it was of vast importance that the duties of the office should be discharged with as much unifor mity as possible ; and further, he saw another reason for limiting the number to one, in the possibility there was of great difference of opinion existini be tween the two Postmasters. The evidence of Chesterfield before the Committee, in 1797, on this subject, was worth attending to.• He was asked, did there not often exist a difference of opinion between these two officers? He replied, that sac!: a thing as a difference seldom occurred; but when there did, it was always understood that the junior should yield to the senior—so that the country was new pay ing a' salary of 2,0001. a year, in order to induce a Noble Marquis to give way to a Noble Earl ! (Hear I and laushter).—He had a further reason for believing that the duties of the situation did not re quire the attendance of two Postmasters, in the fact that one of them, for the best part of two years, was employed exclusively jn diplomatic affairs. With respect to the Irish Post Office, where there were also two Postmasters, the expense was still greater. But, under present circumstances, if a Nobleman, a nal five of Ireland, could be fixed as a resident in that, country by an appointment in the Post Office, be would have no objection to pass it over. The House, would, then, look at the proposition now before it with great deliberation. The measure was one of eco nomy alone : his object was not to lessen the in fluence of the Crown: he did not touch upon that to-1 pic: when the time came, be would not hesitate to state his opinion upon that matter; but for the pre sent he reserved his sentiments upon the subject. But, certainly, if this proposition were resisted solely on the ground that it was a measure that would trench upon' die necessary and just influence of the Crown, then, he would think that the People of England had ik right to complain. There was no doubt that the dies l tresses of the country arose out of that unnatural exertion to which she was forced by the late war— the Revenue and the taxation were increased beyond' all anticipation, and the march of events of memo sity added to the influence of the Crown (Hear, heasi. But it would be hard, indeed, to turn round ups, the country and resist their demands of relief from distress, which was brought about by the very causes that pr o duced a progressive influeute to the flit *a.' to • Member who supported this myrmidon did not it=himself .to Ely further. memore of economy y: But as to thole* gen ilites tor the fina lise to • abolish two Lord s of the AAMira' he. vie `eil pected, in consistency.witit theit conduct on that at socni,that they would give biro their support—other wise whir could they to themselves. by the vote of the former nigtrtrist'ar better would it have been if t h at proposition were lost-4lmt his Honour able Friend who moved the amendment on the former night for reduction should have been left by himself' to exclaim a majority of the House, having voted wi t h him for a solitary aye upon the occasion , th an that the reduction, should now abandon their principleo and vote against a proposition to reduce so unneces= sary and extravagant an expense. But he had a better opinion of the consistency and sincerity of the House than to believe that the motion would be successfully resisted. His Honourable Friend (the Member for Yorkshire) had declared on a former night, that he was ready to support every pmposi • tion fbr reduction which was consistent with the ho nour and security of the country. If, then, that Hon. Member tesiated this motion, he must be prepared to shew that the maintenance of two Postmasters• G eneral was necessary to the honour and safety of the country—( Hear, hear). His Honourable Friend, the Member for Suffolk, had likewise stated, that • re duction should be carried to the utmost point, as he was persuaded that nothing but the load of taxation was the cause of the great distress. He was, there fore, corifident . of The support of these two Gentle men. To the House generally he would appeal, with a full assurance that they , would, on this occasion,, act with consistency, and a due tenderness for the distresed condition of the People —(Hear, hear). He then moved, " That it is the opinion of this House, that without detri ment to the public service, the duties of the Postmasters-Ge-. neral might be performed by one individual, and that the salary of the other might be saved to the country." Mr. ROBINSON said, that although his Noble Friend in bringing forward his motion had thought proper to deprecate a certain course of opposition to him as being unfair, he (Mr. R.) confessed that he felt himself bound to take that very course as one which imperiously called for the rejection of the pro p6sition. With regard to the Bill of liil2, to which his Noble Friend had alluded, he for one never as sented to that Bill, because he held its principle to be erroneous. He could not now look at the question in that narrow point of view in which his Noble Friend was disposed to do. When he came down to the House he confessed that be was disposed to dis cuss it upon those grounds ; but the course of his Noble Friend's argument rendered it necessary that the question should be taken up in its more extended bearings and connections. His Noble Friend admit ted that he expected the success of his motion to lead to similar propositions upon similar grounds— that the principle, being adopted, should be carried into further and more extensive operation —(Hear, Hear).—Therefore if this was only to be the prece dent for the reduction of various other offices, it brought distinctly under the view of the House the question whether the influence ought to be dimi nished or not ? He knew it was very easy to take, declarations of Honourable Members, such as that of his Hon. Friend, the Member for Yorkshire, that he would vote for all reductions consistent with the safety of the State—it was very easy and very con venient to take such sentiments, and make use of I them by way of taunt, coupled with the question of 1 whether the safety of the State depended upon a Postmaster-General. It was very convenient to do this, but he did not conceive it to be the fair or the enlightened view of the question which he had ex pected from his Noble Friend. For his own part, he should take this ground, and he was prepared to maintain it, that the influence of the Crown ought not to be diminished, and that the proposition of his Noble Friend would tend to produce that effect. He was aware that this could not be a popular ground, but no consideration of that nature ever had deterred, or ever should deter him from adopting that conduct which he believed to be in consistence with his duty. If they examined into all history in all time, they found a certain degree of power existed wherever there was a Government, which was for the benefit Of the State so governed. But there must be a line at which this power should stop. The question then becaMe that of where the line should be drawn ? In the present case his Noble mend had touched very cautiously upon that question, but he had said enough to shew clearly that he considered the influence of the Crown to be now in a state to be reduced, He, how ever, was prepared to say that that influence was not now in a condition to be reduced. He knew it might be shewn that a greater number of offices were now in existence than in former periods. But that was by no means a proper view of the question, unless they looked at all the counteracting causes which bad sprung up to oppose—as he hoped there always would be opposed—a barrier to the growth of undue influence on the part of the Clown. If they looked at the situation of this country now and compared it with its situation In former times, or with that of other countries, they would find that a salutary power had arisen which rendered inefficient the influence of the crown, if exerted for any purposes hostile to the freedom of the People. Only let them consider the almost universal distribution of knowledge in this country at the present moment —(Cheers front the Opposition). He hoped lie should be allowed to pro fess and to feel respect for that general knowledge which gave so much value and strength to public opinion. The progress of inforination within the last fife years was greater than could have been believed to be . possible by those who were living at that time. Was it not a fact that a public man in these days acted under a weight of responsibility in the decisions of public opinion, which bad no existence in former times ? He did nut Mean to sarthat a Minister was more subott to personal risk or loss of property, but be could not move without having the eye of the Public aeon him at eve' y nulling, and that with the public ,d 1 his actg. liver/thing he did !es at featful responsibility quite beyond Heat I upon him in dynes when the indigence pressed more directly upon Pa-liament of Hear, hear, frees the appositian).-... If this. He wits glad of it. !secant it check, which was conducive to the interests. Then, looking at the deess him, end not hi - AiU*li t e •iv e li g a wished to place it, he did say. That ;combined to' •preveto the posa l li t y of his sanctioning any further deerease itte ins ilusace Auld power of dse Crown- P's Gobi t Ri m & saw the convenience in briaging the question ter. Ward tiputt the ground be had chosen. 'lle k nfi rp very, well that many votes might be obtained Wmos the question as a =um of economy, which would not have supported a distinct proposition for lessen, ing the influence of the Crown. That etperilnett wits pfd In the last Session, and perhaps his 1441 d. Friend had the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury's mos don in view, which proposed the disqiialification di all placemen for seats in that House. This was brought forward upon the direct ground of lessening the influence of the Crown in Parliament ; • but the House rejected that proposition. It was impossible now to separate the two principles in the present case; and unless they were prepared to contend that the influence of the Crown was too great, they could not support the motion.- If they voted in its favour with out taking these things into their consideration, they would not be doing their duty to the country. These were his reasons for opposing the motion, and he trusted he had stated them fearlessly and openly.— He knew h might be charged against them, as such imputntiops bad been made, that they set their faces against AU reductions, and that with the sordid mo tive of maintaining themselves in power. Stich im potations could not affect them, devoid as they were of all foundation. But if they had not nerve enough to hear up against such attacks they a ould be totally unfit for the situations which they filled. His sense of duty compelled him to meet the motion of his Noble Friend by a negative—(Hear, hear). Mr. HUDSON GURNEY thought that the House would eternally disgrace itself if it rejected the motion for the sake of keeping up an office to support the in fluence of the Crown, which must only tend to weaken its power. It was nothing but a job for giving 2.500!. a-year to a Noble Lord for supporting the existing Administration. Mr. Alderman SMITH opposed the moti,.n. Sir J. SEBRIGHT said, that if his private feelings were to influence him upon the present occasion, he should not vote for the motion of the Noble Lord. —One of the Noblemen who held" those offices had shewn him the greatest personal kindnesses as Lord Lieutenant of the County with. which he was con nected, which he believed to be greatly indebted to that Noble Personage for his liberal attention to its interests. But he was not standing there as a private individual, and therefore he must not be actust•l by private feelings. His duty was to vote for the reduc tion of every office which could possiby he spared with safety to the State. It did not appear to be contended that there seas any danger in reducing a Postmaster-General; and however he regretted giving a vote against the interest of the Nobleman to whom be had alluded, his sense of duty was paramount to all other considerations. Mr. H. SUMNER considered th.e: the r optilue had been misled at County Meetings, by a cry of "retrenchment," which would lead to anything but their substantial relief. He did not know whether these offices were necessary in point of duty or net, but he should oppose the motion because :le zi.ought that, instead of the power of the Crown !,eilnr too great, it was the popular influence which had in creased beyond its proper limits. Sir J. YORKE said, that after the vote which he had given the other night, he wished to explain that which he should give upon the present occasion. He understood the office in question to be opposed upon the ground of its being useless, and defended upon that of its being material to the influence of the Crown. He had always been taught to believe that the power of the Crown, amongst aloyal and free People, did not want to be bolstered up by half a dozen useless offices. —lf both these Postmasters-General were wanted, it appeared that they were not both on duty at once, and therefore, as they took watch and watch about, they ought to divide one salary between them. He should support the motion of the Noble Lord. Mr. DENISON understood the observations of his Hon. Colleague, with regard to the cry of retreach ment," to be applied to him. He begged to state, that he should always be an advocate for retrench ment the most unsparing. In reply to the uoctines of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, he would say, that the power of the Crown had increased, and, would increase. Mr. FRENIANTLE was decidedly bostik to the proposition of the Noble Lord. He conceived that he should be deficient in his duty if he did me sr to his objections to the manner in which the qaestioa had been brought forward. The Noble Lord had put the question upon the ground of saving 25001. a-year. Now, if this had been the whole case, and the contemplated saving had been £5l. no elan would have been more willing than he to support it. I3at the question ought not to be put in this narrow point of view. They Qught to look to its general Ora: upon the country, and to remember that it went to destroy the most ancient institutions, wh.ch had ope rated so much good to the People. If they went from one department to another and said, Ilere is • an office well ccsnducted, but it will be as svA ma naged by a clerk," they would go on until they had • destroyed all the ancient institutions of the coantry. Uponthe question of Crown influence, he was con , vincesr,' that so far from its being increased, it had been considerably lessened of late years. Upot these gtounas, then, he should vote against the motion of the Noble Lord. Mr. S. WORTLEY should not have addressed the House but that he understood he had been alluded tr in his absence by his Noble Friend, the Mover of the ReAtttion. His mind had been occupied by this tleatiOn, to which he had paid serious attention. Ile did not mean to say, nor could any one pretend to say, that this office was necessary to the safety of th State. But the question was, where did Gentlemen , opposite mean to lead them ? A week bad scarcely elapses!, sines two places which were under the Win- . mice of the Crown, were severed froni it. TunighC another was proposed, atad to•mOrrow a whi.4e* Boa.. .... ... ~ I. troub l l ii reN . al V. ere they I V Y, denci Ilt , order 1 for tk MI wet, . .. .. •,.• ' • ' .., . • • •• ' . • • , . b‘t. , ti 110 (kW% horodaii ,.._ th. • . ion knowledge of all hi , tli. after a c adul twee et, if • evidence taken be- alter that oPini .T he si '.- .' 0 . 1.,.' 4. . 4 : 41 / 4 4 tb ; n im ". 4llraw citie ' . 1... : .. *. O a .1e ... hidedch Pressed fueatipor the statements made` Pal) . • rosoun t o ...4 tom/ , • - . 4* • , aty ': %l al tlke . i mid cc. •,c , , of the punishment .1•0 0 . dbe i ii i, . , vot i .. • , 4 1 . ! ; bat coati - • ciliso the . ..—(cosici cries of H *se to i tel.. It we • . es, however, 11-- * n i ne t h e m ir e f ,.. • _W ear ) . .. 4 U -** nights ir o it , in cilinse7 He was glad of thi 4 mite t° say el'at ' b ob sues beta* they c to a con. .. • because their . • in eifiiiiitiOn operated as a the e distinction between 1--natilteet.a.. it . 1 ... um of osadoo , with . ;:, it i kew,cctevitrgople.ofSngland that the e m ir benefit of all inter, Nbe jail and that 4 '.1"441/' D id -. - .. 6 Tirear). --—, . 6 • gloKtn - ttie epowy tek a former eight was not tS tien as k struck I d it. At the former resteet to Sit R . 1 _ it-GENERAL laid he etme oitiy Stet eConotakal ifiridWd which they intended to pay his Noble Friend v --ate in ever, part TPII fi. o lltE r4 L, „,,,-. 4 , 4 .. Ten ea m e imit we • t he to their COnstitOnti. pi:Wigged to sr._ that the these tames col _ _ . _ . _. __ _____-..:..... Am tint aMt smitiinnialiP VIP