Star. — London, England, 1822-01-11 00:00:00

! I; send taxes. I have in my pocket, said the Honour- able Gentleman, the copy of a Petition written in • 1815, which will perhaps throw some light on this part of the subject, and shew that what had occurred was easily foreseen at that time by every one bet his Majesty's Ministers. With very little alteration',.the Petition would do as well now as it did them After reading the Petition, which it will - be seen was not adopted, Mr. Maaaorr said, he should propose an Amend ment. In general, he was not any advocate for Pe titions when they could be avoided : now, where a difference of opinion existed, was it , aecessary to call Meetings for the purpose of adopting them? • It would, he thought, be better to leave such things to their Representatives in Parliament. He must say, that he hoped their Representatives would do their duty in Parliament,' and not come to tickle the ears of their constituents: he alluded to the speech of Mr. Curteis, at Battle. That Gentleman now turned round on the persons. with whom he had hitherto acted, and accused them of having caused the present distress.— At the late Election he * vas the firm friend of Mr. Curteis, who had gone into Parliament undera pledge to perform his duty independently. He (Mr. Mabbot) now called on Mr. Curteis to say whether, on the dis cussion of the questions of economy in the House of Commons, he had done his duty ? He would agree that some good had resulted from the present Meet ing, since it had enabled him (Mr. Mabbott) to do his duty, in coming forward, and saying what he bad done—(Bravo!)—Having done this, having had a touch, as he always would, at his Hon. Friend, and having, as he thought, said enough on that point, he would now propose a very short Amendment to the Petition which had been read. (The Amendment was to extend the allegations of the Petition, to a ge neral representation of distress, as it pervaded the sentry at large, instead of confining it to one parti cular class, the Agricultural Body.)—Mr. Mabbott went on to say, that we were kindred souls, and could not exist one without the other—(Bravo!) — Much had been said about rents: he thought with the Noble Lord, that we ought to look at home; and he thought, too, that the interests of the farmer and la rdlord were reciprocal. Tue Cnatnneas, in speaking to a point of order, said, that he did not think it competent to any Gen trizrran to propose a motion at variance with the terms set the notice by which the Meeting had been called. Mr. CHATFIELD here exclaimed from the gallery. that the Member of Parliament who had been alluded in. had gone to the ['owe of Commons with his hands tied, and that he had now got them loose—(Laughter). Here a desultory conversation arose, which lasted some time, till at length Mr. LAW moved that the Chairman should report the progress of the Meeting. Upon this the CHA IRMA N stated, that it had been in the first place moved that a Petition to Parlia ment should be adopted by the Meeting ; that an .Amendrne.rt had been then moved by Mr. Blackman, arid that a second Amendment had been proposed 1 y M. Nlabbott, Mr. DUANAN felt the distress to be great ; the oc cupiers and owners of lane' were alike suffering ; but Aril he could say Ne sutor ultra crepidam : for though the shoe might pinch, every one ii.ight not be able to point out the mode of relief. He would say to the Legislative Body, " I suffer, it is for you to decide how relief may be given." Let us, said 11i r. Donovan, ask for assistance, but let us not, in so doing, travel out of our splice. Mr. CIM TFILLD said that die Gentleman was talk ing to very little purpose. ‘Ve were in a trap, and although we knew the way of getting out, we niu.tt not say chat it was, but leave it to others to tell. " I am not," said Mr. Chatfield, " for hag speeches, but I do like a little common souse." MI. CURTLIS, M.P. rose to answer the particular question which had been put by Mr. Chatfield, whe ther he (Mr. Cut teis) had not gone into Pa l harnent with his hands tied ? He admitted that he had gone into Parliament with his hands tied ; for at the last General Election, when the Ft eeholders of the County had placed him in the hotionrable situation in which he then stood, as one of their Representatives, lie had entered into a specific engagement with diem, that he would alwayi pay the utmost attention to their wishes, and obedience to their instructions. That he had always held sacred, and that promise lie had, to the hest of his ability, fulfilled ; and he was this day in attendance for the purpose of ascertaining what those wishes were. In Parliament he always sat on the independent bench ; and with whatever inde pendence they had sent him into the House of Com mons, that he still retained. He was under no tie to Ministers ; and had no connection with the Opposi tion. It appeared to him that Ministers had not acted with kindness towards the Agriculturists, through fear of offending the commercial men and manufac turers. In answer to Mr. Mabbott's question, as to his conduct with relation to economical reform, he could conscientiously say that he had almost uni formly voted on the side of retrenchment, never fasti diously, but always conscientiously. Mr. Davis GILBERT observed, that the Petition contained at the very outset a gross and palpable falsehood ; for it spoke of the distressed owners of land, which was a mere mockery, as the owners of land were actually gainers by the present circum stances, in having raised the rent of their land in consequence of the'high price of corn, which rent was still exacted notwithstanding the - great depres sion of price for every article of consumption. Was it not then an insult to common sense, as well as a violation of plain truth, to allege the distress of the owners of land, but very few of whom had made any sacrifice whatever to relieve their tenantry by reducing their rents? What Lord Chichester said he had done in the letting of his estates was, no doubt, very laudable ; but he would ask that Noble Lord, whether even he was not a gainer by the present state of things, and whether his rents were not considerably higher than in 1792 ? Yet the peasantry, the labour.. ing poor of the country,were writhing ander tie most severe distress. It was then for these poor deserving people that he felt solicitude, it was for them that he would seek relief, for he would much rather behold 10,000 people living comfortably than one living splendidly—(Loud cheers).—He combatted the argu ment of Mr. Kemp, that the mechanical orders were rather benefitted by the present condition of the coun try, as their wages were fi xe d, as that argument was founded upon a fallacy. A case had indeed yester day come to his knowledge, which was quite contra dictory to the Von. Gentr - 's notion. It was that of his hlacksmills, at Uck d, etbo told him (Mr. Gilbett) that, finding the fa ' paid a proportion T r" of thelwages of their labours out of the Peovrates which were exacted from him, he had reduced the wages of his journeyman 2s. per week, leaving him to apply to the Poor-rates if be thought proper.— Advetting to the observation of Mr. Donovan, that the People should not interfere with the business of Legislation, but leave everything to the wisdom of Parliament, he contrasted that extraordinary remark (which he was astonished to hear from any English man) with the declaration of the Hon. Mesiber for the County, that he felt himself bound to obey the instructions of his Constituents—for how could the Hon. Member obey those instructions if the People were not at liberty to express them ? But the worthy Magistrate's sentiment was quite alien to the princi ples and feelings of an Englishman. •An Hon. Mem ber (Mr. Curtets) had stated at Battle, that it was necessary to pay tithes for the salvation of our souls, from which it would seem that those who did not pay tithes were in a fair way to be damnedl— ( Loud laughter).— But quitting this observation, he declared that'he was no enemy' to tithes ; the title to tithes was, indeed, more sacred and ancient than that by which landowners held their estates; yet many of these landlords were very forward to call for an abrogation of tithes. But what was the meaning of that call ? Why, it was simply this, take away the. tithes and pay no more rent. But what difference, in point of equity, did the existence of tithes form to the land lords? Their estates were bought under a pledge for the payment of the tithes, and their purchase money was regulated accordingly. With respect to the interest of the public debt, to which Mr. Black man had referred, that Gentleman was under a mis take; for that interest did not amount to 40 millions —it was, indeed, only 28 millions, out of which the. fundholders paid in taxe., as consumers, at least nine twentieths, which reduced the amount of interest paid to them to about 15 millions. Mr. Blackman had called for the repeal of various taxes, and yet ple4ded forcibly for the payment of the interest of the debt. Mr. Gilbert sat down amidst considerable applause. . _ Mr. Bt.ACKMAN now proposed the following Re solutions, in lieu of the Petition; (and on the first being put, the CHAIRMAN said to Lord CHICHESTER and Mr. PARTINGTON, " There is a decided majority of hands in favour of Mr. Blackman's Resolution : what am I to do now r ) - .. 1, That it appears to this leeting, by the Report of the Agricultural Conunittee passed during the last Session of Parlia ment. that there has been no fixed standard of value in this country during a period of almost twenty-five years; but that an unsettled currency has cast injury and injustice in succession upon the diff.rent ranks of society ; has involved the farming, manufacturing, and trading interssts of the country in great difficulties; and has produced derangement in all the transac tions of lite. " 2. That the present state of the farming and trading inte rests of the Rapes of Lewes and Pevensey, fully bears out the justice and accuracy of the general description of the country con tained in the foregoing assertions of the Agricultural Committee. " 3. That this Meeting has always considered It Vibe the first duty of thehlouse of Commons to inquire into all the injury and injustice which may be cast in succession upon the different ranks of society ; and if, unhappily, an unsettled currency be a Legislative measure of injury and injustice, in which the House itself has necessarily borne its part, yet for that the House has seen its great error, and the sad draughts which have been made on the happiness and morals of the people, by a departnre from a fixed standard of value during so long a course of years; this Meeting humbly hopes that the House will, on assembling. enter into an early and careful revision of all Legislative measures enacted during that period, connected with the value of money, and particularly into the merits of the forte Laws passed in 1804 and 181.1; and as it is evident that if injury and injustice have atisen during so long a period, out of voluntary contracts between individuals, which are capable of adjustment, that still greater injury and injustice must now arise out of the involuntary obli gation imposed by the State during the same period, which are not capable of adjustment. This ,denting further hopes, that the House will enter into a careful examination, with a view to their speedy reduction of all charges on the 6.11 List—of all Places and Pensions—of the Pay and Allowances to the Army and Navl—of all Taxes on Consumption disproportioned to the value of the raw article, particu'arly Malt and Salt—of all Pe nalties—of all Ricognizances for Securities—of all Taxes upon Personal Property, Probates, Legacies, and Stamps—of all Taxes on the Conveyance of Landed Property, and especially the in creased Costs of Justice in the Courts of Law and Equity; and, moreover, if it should"appear upon investigation. that in conse quence of any ill-judged attempts on the part of the distressed manufacturing classes to ward off that portion of injury and in justice which an unsettled currency cast on them in the order of succession, it became expedient to pass, upon the plea of (State) necessity, any arbitrary and unconstitutional laws affecting the liberty of the subject generally ; this Meeting fervently hopes that the House will now see the justice and propriety of repealing all such laws, and of giving to the country, by some efficient and salutary measure a much better security than any it now possesses against the recurrence of an evil so justly and strongly deprecated by the Agricultural Committee, as an unsettled currency." Lord CHICHESTER sugge,ted, that those who were not owners or occupiers of land should retire. The CHAIRMAN here announced to the Meeting, that the spew of hands was in favour of Mr. Black man's first Resolution. Upon the recommendation of Mr. PARTING?" it was settled that several sheets of paper should be sent round the room, upon which every owner or occupier of land should be required to write his name and ad dress, with the vote he meant to pronounce. Lord GAGE said a few words in support of Mr. Partington's proposition; but by this time the Hall was nearly empty, the people having concluded that the Resolutions were carried. But some signatures in support of the Petition having been obtained to the papers which were distributed, I'He CHAIRMAN declared that the Petition was car ried, and it was ordered to be left for signatures. The Meeting broke up about four o'clock, and soon after a number of Gentlemen met to dine at the Star Inn, and Mr. DAVIS GrLBERT was called to the Chair. After dinner " the health of the KING" was drank with the warmest applause. Several other toasts followed ; among which were, " Prosperity to the County of Sussex," and •' Success to Commerce." Upon the retirement of Mr. DAVIS GILIIIRT, Mr. Kamp, the late Member for Lewes, was loudly called to the Chair, and he immediately proposed, " More money and less taxes," which was drank with applause; as was 66 A full and speedy investigation of the cause of the Agricultural Distress of the country, with the discovery of an effectual remedy." Mr. E. Jonarsow took occasion to propose the health of a distinguished individual, whom he was happy to see in the room, and than whom, he said, there was not in England a man more competent to give sound advice to the agriculturists, and to pro. mote their relief. He meant " Mr. Cobbett.". Mr. HITCHINS declared that he could not remain in the room if the health of Mr. Cobbett were drank ; x in h:s Jetta prosoutoxi especially af u t er p the the e of ew su tl sse eman had lately on to Lord Egreinont._/ Several voices called loudly, „ Tarn him out r mit , the cry of Shame, PMr. artington then left the room. violenceius a n d redom Mr. Cobbett r predomin a ted.—Mr. H ru i t tc a h l Mr. Cowgirl. immediately rose and said, " Gentle men, I - am extremely sorry that anything connected harmony with of my intention to form a part. - Very anxious to know, In t hee shoul d company, have v o e f which oc curr ed was t o disturbn ot a t first e from my own observation, what should pass at this Meeting to-day, I came to the town ; but having satis hid that desire, I had intended, and had adopted the usual steps for, dining at the inn where I am staying. Being told by several farmers, that it was expected that I should dine here; being told that my absence would cause disappointment to numerous persons, I came to this dinner, having, too, a righ: to do it with out any asking, and without assigning any reasons. As to the proposing of my health, if not wholly un expected by me, it proceeded from a Gentleman with whom I am wholly unacquainted ; and it was a proposition (if my wishes ought to have had anything to do with the matter), the adoption of which Was calculated to give me pain rather than pleasure, see ing that the Gentleman who did me the honour to make the proposition did, by his manner of doing it, evidently entertain hopes connected with its effects, which hopes I feel but too sensibly my want of power gp realise. But, Gentlemen, the toast having been oNiosed, and that, too, in the extraordinary manner you have witnessed, I will, at any rate, with your per mission, make a remark or two on that manner. If the person who has made the opposition had been ac tuated by a spirit of fairness and justice, he would not have confined himself to a detached sentence of the Paper from which he has read, but would have taken the whole together ; for, by taking a particular sen tence, and leaving out all the rest, what writing is there that will not admit of a wicked interpretation ? As to the particular part which has been read, I should not, perhaps, if I had seen it in print, and had had time to cool a little, have sent it forth in terms so vet) , general as to embrace all the farmers of this County ; but, as to those of them who put the bell round the la bourer's neck, I beg leave now to repeat, in its severest sense, every word of the passage that has been read. Born in a farm-house, bred up at the plough-tail. with a smock-frock on my hack, taking peat delight in all the pursuits of farmers, liking their society and having amongst them my most esteemed friends, it is natural that I should feel, and I do feel, uncom monly anxious to prevent, as far as I am able, that total ruin which now menaces them. But, the la bourer, was Ito have no feeling for him ? WAS not he my countryman too? And was I not to feel in dignation against those farmers, who had had the hard-heartedness to put the hell round his neck, and thus wantonly insult and degrade the class to whose toils they owed their own ease? The statement of the fact was not mine ; I read it in the Newspapers, as having come from Mr. Ellman the younger; he, in a very laudable manner, expressed his horror at it; and was not I to express indtnation at what Mr. Ellman felt horror? That Gentleman and Mr. Webb Hall may monopolise all the wisdom in matters of political economy ; but, are they, or rather is Mr. Ellman alone, to engross all the feeling too ?---Elt was here denied that Mr. Ellman had said the bell had been put on by farmers.l—Very well, then, the complained of passage has been productive o bene fit to the tal niers of thi., county ; for, as the thing stood in the Newspapers, the natural and . unavoid able inference was, that that atrocious, that inhuman act, was an act of Sussex farmers. Having, Gen tlemen, made this explanation, I shall proceed to no other topic unless called upon so to do by the voice of a decided majority of the company; but, at the same time, I beg you to be assured, that I lament this occurrence only as it has been the cause of dis turbing your harmony, and by no means as it relates to myself, to which I will add, that I feel no anger against those with whom the objection originated, understanding pretty well the quarter whence it did originate, and knowing how to make allowance for the irritability of mortification and chagrin. We are not, Gentlemen, to expect to enjoy the triumph of reason over conceited ignorance, without having to , endure whatever vengeance the latter may have the' poser to inflict:— Here a conversation took place in which the CHAIRMAN, Messrs. BLACKMAN and CHIPS'S took a part, urging the necessity of hearing Mr. Cobbett. Mr. CORBETT resumed.—." I shall then, Gentle men, offer you a few observations on some of the topics that have this day been matter of discussion in another place; and I beg you to feel no pain at any little interruptions that I may experience, I being well satisfied that events will make those ap plaud who may now express dissatisfaction. What a cause is this for assembling together? It has fre quently happened that a particular branch of trade has been greatly injured; that, owing to some circum stance of peace or of war, of cession or of conquest, this or that branch of commerce has been almost an nihilated ; but, the history of the world has furnished until now no instance in which a whole body of far mers and landlords were upon the point of being overwhelmed in ruin, which, indeed, is nothing short of the breaking up of the very foundations of society. A Noble Lord (Lord Chichester) observed to-day, that the farmers would do better to remain at home; for, that he was convinced, that there was no re medy but in individual exertion. Now, if his Lord ship meant that it was right for farmers to be industrious and not to waste their time, he was right; but, surely, when they find that, in spite of all their industry and frugality, they grow poorer and poorer, and at last see ruin staring them in the face, it becomes them, as men of good sense, to inquire into the cause and to seek for a remedy.— And as to individual exertion being that remedy, how can any individual exertion make head against the irresistible and all-pervading cause that is now at work ? Is it meant that the farmers should retrench,, that they should lessen their personal expenses, that they should come down in their way of living ? Why, you have retrenched, you have come down. This is already done; and I defy any human being to point out how you, by individual exertion, are to do more than you have already done. Do the Land lords imagine that they are continue to receive high rents out of the savings in thy tarmea's family it augmen ts it ttel the know how small a proportio n expenses? Do D° even th o ey n the mosptb:eesextavranert::,s,nct scale, t~ the rent of any one other branch of the tenant's outgoing' ? But, above all things, do they consider thereat cause of the present distress? and if they do, how can they snßidaibldldecaees se bt th; in the same proportion; Pr mitigated b imagine i n d i r that duni its exertion? .n e o amount ommonly lled does as to all the taxes ; it triples even the e c iot v a f M y e t hn mortgagera e e a bound toll at turnpike-gates ; it is, in fact, as to all practical purposes, an act of confiscation on every man bo tir d by lease, mortgage, bond, or other contract for ti lt ,. What, against the operation of an Act like this, i s t , be done by individual exestion ? The Ministers de precate interference, and, by the mouth of Lord C. chester, tell you to-day that they can do nothing to relieve you ; for, be you assured, that what he said will be said by them. I would, Gentlemen, that the, had not interfered, and that they did not inter now ; but have they not interfered, and do they n " • still interfere, by the hands of the tax-gatherer, .{:ki by the means of Mr. Peel's Bill ? And here let rte express my surprise that it should have been t h oti o :t proper to advise you to appeal to the wisdom o f liament—to its power, if any one likes ; hut, u I know a great deal better than to advise any o : , e say a word tending to bring that body into contemn I must say, that considering that cvery evil you (f ar . plain of is, at once, traced to acts of that body, i t does appear to me to be rather out of place t.) m a k e your appeal to its wisdom for redress—to its mercy, if some compliment must be paid it ; but, to AiT.7AI to its wisdom, at the very moment when )ou are setting forth the deplorable effects of its acts, i, say, that it has brought you into misery what it was doing, and, in this, I am convinced do that celebrated body great injustice; for I: u m certain they did notsnean to co what they have Still wisdom may, with some, be matter of taste; with these it may be wisdom to p: oduce a strre things, in which, while the nation is vethimk„ c‘ i with food, it is necessary to raise taxes on the ov. '7 of the food, in order to send a part of the mouths seek food under the scotching sun of the Cape Goo 1 hope ; a state of timings in which, while f..; farmer is unable to find money to employ laboMe ; to work for his benefit, he is compelled to find to employ them to break stones into very small hi:s to make very smooth roads for others to ride a,d drive along; a state of things which has awake::el the bright idea of producing relief to the nation, wi l l preserving the mi,rals cf the people, by setting thera to dig holes one day, and fill them up the next ; _ according to the estimate of these persons it may he wisdom to produce a state of things like this ; but, ac cording to my el4tniate, such a phrase, at such a.time, ought not to have found its way into a Petition to 1 3 . 1 ri a . ment.—l am stit e every one recollects that, as long as the farmers confined themselves to the adoption, in their Petitions, of the absurd reveries of Mr. Web') Hall, they were never advised to keep at home. Na:., it is perfectly notorious, that the landlords (Seginning with those in Huntingdonshire) expressly called min)a them to leave home, to bestir themselves, to meet, and to petition. This change of advice, then, mu , t have a cause. The subject has been discussed: farmers begin to see the real cause of their suffer'i:zs; they trace those sufferings to the taxes; these to enormous standing army, the high salaries, I and grants, and the still more enormous antouiv ci the debt. fhe farmers in Hertfordshire have agred to petition for a reduction of these; those of Linco shire, particularly of Holbeach, have done the t ame; and now, all of a sudden, some, at least, of landlords, have discovered, that the farmers s\ ru e d do better to stay at home, and mind the plough:— The fact is, Gentlemen, that many of the landler,h are something else besides landlords; they are place men and pensioners (by the bye, Lord Chichester i' Postmaster-General); they receive taxes; they, t!lcr.:- fore, very naturally dislike to hear the suffet lag) im • puted to those taxes ; and, besides this, they as wel as the fundholder, the mortgagee, and the my•lacel and unpensioned landlord, profit, as placemen an.! pensioners, by the rise in the value of money, ani, therefore, they would Fain prevent the farmers front busying themselves about the currency; and would have them stay at home, and use individual exertion. To shew the inefficacy of Corn Bills, America, whic:t has never imported a sack of corn since the country was discovered by Columbus, has, since the passing of Mr. Peel's Bill, seen prices fall in the proport:on ct from one hundred and fifty to forty.five: and I read in a Newspaper of only the other day, that one met , chant's house in Philadelphia had sent, in the cour'e of the year, gold to the amount of a million of clams to England ! Here are cause and effect. Ea lay:' drains away gold; the American Banks, which aN compelled to pay in cash, draw in their paper, ar.,t prices fall. Thus, Gentlemen, lam convinced, thing will go on until May, 1823; and, if Mr. Peel , Bill remain m full force, our taxes must come clov.a to even less than sixteen millions a year, or all the I landed estates Must change owners ; and if this remain in full force to May,1823, and continue thc:-.cc forth in full force, the price of good wheat, on an ave rage of years, will not exceed 4s. the Winchester busk , . If it does, I will be content to pass for a foal for tie remainder of my life. I have now, Gentlemen, express the gratification I feel arthe attentive manner in which you have been pleased to'hear me; and :c add, that if what I have said shall have the srnallr , : tendency to lessen the magnitude or to shorten the duration of the distresses of any one of you, I shall deem that much more than a compensation for the troyble of coming to Lewes, and also for the rre mentary unpleasant personal circumstances which have taken place in this room. Mr. Coen Ert's address was received with applause , and the company soon after separated. Yesterday, the Earl TALBOT arrived from Irelane. In the evening his Lordship, accompanied by Lu nd ARTHUR Mu., visited the Adelphi Theatre. THE Onnroatoa.—The management of the Orato rios, at Covent-Garden Theatre, has been resigned by Mr. BISHOP, and in consequence of that resignatioi will be transferred . to lhe proprietorship of Mr. Doc HS A I with whose talents the musical world are well ac quainted. Sir GROROR SMART: is engaged to condtnt tuese performances, which will be greatly extended in point of duration, and promise to exhibit a more tnil liant assemblage, of English talent in particular, th,to Ims liver been witnessed upon a similar occasion. iiii\ii. 6 fe ti Sc ii 4 In to P 1 is i bf Ii •e • d ej 0 e •t al c WE di ti tl It; ti tl t t •