Star. — London, England, 1814-11-10 00:00:00

k • ARMY IN MINA. CAPTAIN of INFANTRY, whose Regimen A i, in India on full-pay, is desirous to Eithange in a Reel inert at home on full or on half-pay. Lczters post-paid, addressed, with real signatures, to N. N 1 _F r . 21, Tooke's-court, Chancery -Igoe, will he attended tn. - i P4RLI4.III.6I'TAR rPRGCEEDINGS..7 • HOUSE Mr COMMONS, NOV. e. . Petitions were presented from various quarters; praying lir leave to introduce Private 80.. Serjesnt OssLow gave notice of a Bill for more effectually securing the Liberty of the Subject, which he proposal to bring forward on the eed instant. Mr. CR OK La &ave notice of a Motion for the fartherße ward sod Encotaraiement of Petty Officers and Seamen, and the Cesoolidadon of t:te Naval Chests ; which was fixed for to• Z;yen the Marley of the Spumes, thl Grand Committees of k e lgion, of Grievances, Courts of Justice, of Trade, and of Prsvileges, were renewed, together with the usual Standing Orders. BROC DEN moved the revival of the Committee for Ex- Firing I aws, which was agreed to. The CuaNcettos of the EI ER gave notice of his In. mention CO move for the erection of a Monument to General A 055, on Friday. Mr. WHITBREAD enquired, whether Ministers' were ptepared to communicate the correspondence between General Prevost and the American Corn. minders, previous to those acts of retaliation which lad been committed on our part ? He wished also to know, if any enquiry had been instituted with regard to the two Spanish Officers who were given up it Gibraltar? •.. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that it had always been the wish of Sir G. Prevost to abstain front that system so mush repro bated by the Hon. Gentleman ; but he had found himself compelled to retaliate, in consequence of the measures of the enemy. As to the Spani s h Chiefs, measures were taken to ascertain the truth of the statement respecting them. Mr.FREEMANTLE rose, for the purpose of ex acting some information from Ministers, as to the Paper mentioned by a Noble Lord (Castlereagh) last Session respecting the troops at present maintained by us in the Low Countries. He condemned the negligence of ;Ministers in not having procured the ratification of the Convection, by which the troops in question were stipulated tor, while they had the con fidence to come down to Parliament, in order to ob. ban support (or them. The Convention was in itself unconstitutional, being negotiated without any direct cow IntellieatiOn to Parliament ; •and he would call upon the . Right Hon. Gentleman • (the Speaker) to determine whether it were noes°. Parliament was still ignorant whether the troops now in the Low Coun tries were Dutch, Spanish, or British ; but it was certain that they were commanded by a foreign Prince, who, although he had illustriously served under the Duke of WellinFlon, was not amenable to British jurisprudence. 1 here was so instance of a foreign Officer, under such circumstances, having the - command of Bri.ish soldiers. It was, therefore, ne • cersary, to watch this subject with jealousy, as it was new to Parliament; not as it was 41430334 We to fore see the consequences to which it might lead. He conceived it proper that the Conventren to which.he adverted should *be produced; and ace-orally,. eloalld now move— o mat in benthie Antlers tw pritsettic& to his Rtiyal High ness the.Priace ite,tent, prit)itig tfi a t be soould.be gr...ciously pletleAl to Coe ttwitaitato to that House say espy or (o w let or any engagement !with foreign Powers for the maireteattnee and sup port of lirldth or for fan two r s." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that if the Honourable Gentleman had thought fit to wait a little lorig , :r, he would have declined the Notion now made. Although the Convention was signed on the `29:h of Jane; it had not, owing to the circumstances of the Congress, been ratified, and could not, of couree, be submitted to the House.— The Converaten arose ont of the Treaty of Chau. moat, which conditioned the union of the forces of the Allies against France ; and though the number of such forces might appear to be rendered less ne cessary, from the circumstance of the restoration of the' legitimate :none' chy of that country in the person Of Louis XVIII. still it was deemed fit to keep up a' Portion of such troops until the final arrangement of affairs. These troops were accordingly sent, as our contribution or contingent. We should have sent them, even if no such Convention existed, for the pt otection of Holland, so highly and justly estimated by sie. Parliament having once approved of the force, he knew nothing that ought to prevent its being employ' d. There was not any thing so inte restiitg to u', nothing which the greatest of States men bad so prised. as the.protection and conservation of Holland, sensible as they were of its paramount importance to this country. No one could already have forg otten • the manner in obich the French had overrun Holland ; nor could any one doubt that it became us to prevent a recurrence of the same evil in times to come. Respecting the Prince of Orange, le must remark, that what had been observed of other foreign Officers could by no means apply to him, who bad served in the British army, and was amenable to <the British Law-Martial.— (Laughs frost the ONualiion side.) —As to the Convention itself, at was still unratified, and could not therefore be a fit subject for such a Motion as the Hon. Gentleman had just proposed to the ilouse. flee the SeEAKEK was proceeding to put the motion ; when Mr. WHITBREAD rose. Lie began by describ mg the consolation to be extracted from the citcum stance of the Prince of Orange, who commanded out troops in the Low Countries, being at all subject to martial law, as a Emitter 'perfectly ludicrous. How were we to get et him ? It was worse than Tidiest. lour to imagine that he would repair here to be Wed, on any occasion ; though be himself did disclaim, at the same time, the nrost distant idea of supposing any imputatiop likely to attach to that illustrious young Prinee. Were it necessary for him to be tried, laawevcr, wp might send an army after him, and yet not sun zeed in catchiag him.—(4/eseeh).....But t h e Idea Hone Gentleman (Vansittart) did not know %%bah r the Convention was ratified ; this he knew riot, though fie knew hew to come down to that House fur money it) pay the troops stipulated for. —Now, why might not Lord Castlereagh, by his frequeot ceuriere, have succeeded so far as to have obtaintd a ratification of the paper ? It was called a piece of paper, is was somewhat sarcastically called iv, as be 'thought, by the Right honoureble the hasiceiler of the Duchy of Lancaster. Yet if pacer of no value, what sere we to put our faith in What did we accept in every condition of life, as the pterige of every thing valuable to us, but paper ? BOnaparte's fall, however, ought to have superseded the Treaty of Chaumont, or else the Right Honour lithfCtentleman (Vansittart), that we were still tbliged to-proceed with.arms in our hands, and that we could not confide its the restoration of the Bour bons. When, indeed, was Holland to stand alone, 'if not now ; now, when we were at peace with 'France, and when the legitimate family of that na tion was established on its throne ? To imagine the contrary, was an imputation on the sincerity of that dynasty we had struggled to establish in its scat. — Forces had been sent to Holland, however, since the signing of the Convention; without any reason being. given for such a measure; except that, perhaps, as Austria and Prussia had, during the Congtess, been extending their territory, and keeping large armies on foot, it might appear right for England to pursue a similar kind of system. But this. was not a situa tion in which the House was called upon to vote away the money of its constituents. Mr. B.' BATHURST maintained the manifest impropriety of communicating the papers specified in the Address now moved, since they were not rati fied in any sense of the word, and, of course, not proper to be laid on the Table of the House. That they were not ratified, as the Honourable Gentleman (Whitbread) supposed they might have been, was entirely to be attributed to things being out of thel ordinary course. The negociations having been car-I tied on by the principal Secretaries of State instead of I the common channels of diplomacy, there had not been sufficient time to attend to lesser matters, and indeed to some transactions of a higher stamp. — Still the thing was in reality done, the Convention was just as valid as if it were actually signed, and it remained in the same state as at the close of the last Session. The great Allied Powers had, by the Treaty of Chaumont, agreed to keep on foot a cer tain proportion of forces, till such time as the spoils accumulated by the enemy should be definitively dis posed of. But it was impossible for the House to, entertain the least jealousy of any forces that were employed in the Low Countries. He was reminded, here, that he had described the Treaty of Chaumont as a piece of papers true, for what was that Treaty, or, indeed, any other sort of treaty, more than paper, unless well followed up, and acted upon ? It was necessary to follow up the Treaty of Chaumont, and to this point he wished to bring the feeling of the House. Belgium was full of fortified places, it re., quired to be garrisoned from o ne extremity to the other ; and ought not the troops of th is countr y ,' above those of any other, to have those fortresses in their keeping ? It was the necessary consequence of the Treaty of Chaumont, that each of the contracting Potentates kept up such a force as was necessary to carry its operations into full effect. Even hid no such compact existed; it would, nevertheless, have been our duty to have taken care to secure an uncon troulabte possession of what the enemy had been compelled to concede. We had an interest in doing this, imperative in all circumstances, hut peculiarly so in the present state of things. He could see no propriety in the motion before the House, which called for a communication it was impracticable to grant. Mr. TIERNLY observed, that the distinction be tween thecase of Prince Ferdinand and the present .vas this—that Prince Ferdinaud was Cu:inlander in-Chief of all the troops which composed his army, as to their employment on general set vice, or their direction to any 'particular destination ; but had no power to authorize the infliction of punishments, or the appointment of Courts Martial. The authority for that purpose had been vested in the Marquis of Granby by a Special Commission. The Pr:lice of Orange, on the contrary, was absolute Commander. iu-Chtef of the British army in the Netherlands, not only as to their employment in the execution of mi litary operations, but as to the assembling of Courts Martial, and the maintenance of discipline by the in. Aictian of punishment. This was a situation in which British troops had never before been placed; he therefore hoped the Right Honourable Gentleman would take care that a British Officer should be ap pointed to this army with the same powers which had been possessed by the Marquis of Granby, to re gulate the proceedings which might be necessary as to punishments for the preservation of discipline.— With respect to the motion of his Honourable Friend, it was his npiaion, that a return could be made to it without difficulty, and one which would be satisfac tory to the House. The object of the motion. was to obtain a copy or copies of any such engagements as hid been entered into with Foreign Powers relative to the maintenance and employment of a British force in the Low Countries. To this the Right Ho nourable the Chancellor of the Exchequer answered, that as the Convention, though it had been ratified by his Majesty, had not received the ratification of the other contracting parties, it could not be laid be-. fore the House. He could net conceive any objec tion to the production of that which had received his Majesty's sanction. It might be accompanied by an explanation stating the reasons why it had not been formally ratified by the other Powers. He wanted to know what was the nature of this Convention?— why the other Powers had not ratified it ? and what was the number of troops to be maintained by this country ? before he should be called upon to vote the sum necessary for their support. It was highly inde corous—it was unprecedented, for Ministers to enter into such engagements with Foreign Powers, without having first communicated to that House the condi tions that they had agreed to, together with an esti , mate of the expense that would be incurred. Accor ding to the practice of Parliament, they had never beta called upon to vote supplies of money, without being informed of the mode - of their application.— Beyond the fact that they were to vote these supplies they knew nothing. The Right Hon. Gentleman only told them that some troops were to be employed in the Netherlands for a certain object, which object he bad not made them acquainted with. Under these circumstances, what idea could any one form of it Could any Gentleman tell what wail to be the number of the troops ? This neither the Right Honourable Gentleman in this instance, nor the I Noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs, towards the I close of last Session, had condescended to communi. caw to the House. It may be forty thousand men, and it may be seventy.five thousand men, as he bad heard it reported—and be Wince, the latter number Ito be nearer the fact ; but . still that House was left in the dark upon the subject. But whatever might be the number. it was understood tat England was to supply a certain thrcein men or in money: If she could not.furnish her quetirsnitiitive troops, she was, as he was informed, to provide whit she could no: so supply, by paemente, at the rate of £2O per man. Would that House submit to such an arrangement, and to the application of large sums of money, for an object which no man living could know ? The Right Honourable Gentleman indeed asserted, that the money was to be expended for the employment of a force sufficient to secure the Dutch barrier—an object in which this country bad at ill times felt a warm interest. But were the troops actually on foie? He believed that there had not been at any time since the peace a force of seventy-five thousand men in the Netherlands. It the coops were not there, how was the money applied The money must be paid somewhere, and that it was the duty of that House to insist upon being made acquainted with.— The only answer to an inquiry on Cie subject was, that there were some engagements which were to be carried into effect. But when these engagements were called for they were incomplete; and it was ra ther a singular reason that had been assigned for their being defective—that the business had been managed by Secretaries of State, and therefore done badly. If it had been said, that in consequence of the absence of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, every thing was going on wrong, that would be a perfectly intelligible and satisfactory account for all the errors and mistakes of the Right Honourable Gentleman and his colleagues. The sum, however, of what he wanted to know was—why the Convention in ques don had not been ratified ? Lie would not then say whether it was tight or wrong to enter into such a Convention ; but he required to be informed why it was still incomplete ? and how the money wastobe ap plied—whether to a common object or a particular ob ject—to an exclusively foreign or a purely British pur pose ?—The Right Honourable Gentleman who-had Just sat down, had stated, that the Convention had not been acted upon ; and that therefore the House liras not concerned in knowing its conditions. For his part, he could not subscribe to such doctrine.— That House was to provide the money, and was therefore entitled to the fullest information as to its application. If the Convention itself could not be laid on the table, such information of its contents might be communicated to the House as would justify them in voting the money that was to be demanded. Mr. B. BA . CHURST here stated across the Table that he offered to lay the substance of the Convention, though he euuld not form;dly produce the document itself in its present unratified state, before the House. He had made this offer to the Honourable Member who brought forward the motion, before he rose to address the House, and he hid repeated the offer distinctly in the course of a few observatirns with which he had himself subsequently troubled thellonse. Mr. TIERNEY denied basing heard the Right Hon. Gentleman make any such proposition, which might have arisen from his being a little deaf in one ear, bat would be satisfied with the early production of the information promised by the Right lion. Gen tletnan. After a few further desultory ol:servations on both sides, Mr. Freemantle's motion was withdrawn by consent, and an Address voted to the Prince Regent that he would be graciously pleased to direct the substance of the Couveution to be before liatneut. ORDERS AND NOTICES. On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER it was ordered, that in coni.deration of the convenience that had resulted from a similar arrangement in former Sessions, the Orders of the Day should have precedence of Notices on Mondays and Fridays. Mr. WHITBREAD, in consideration of the rea sons he had already repeatedly stated against this.ar rangement, felt himself called upon to protest ag.orist it, anal declared that he should not be bound by it, if it should be necessary to bring on any motion, of which he may give notice on either of the days spe cified. It was then ordered, on the motion of the CHAN CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, that no private Petition should be received atter Monday, the 25th of this month—no private Bill be read a second time after Monday, the 6th of March—and uo report of a private Bill be received after Monday, the sth May. DISEMBODYING MILITIA. Lord MILTON wished, before the Report of the Address should be brought up, to ask a question of Ministers, on a subject which, he considered of much importance. He wished to know why a con siderable,body of the militia had been retained embo died. He was aware, that in the two principal Mi litia Acts, that of 1786 and that of 1802, there was no provision for disembodying the militia. But it was understood, and had been the practice, that they should be disembodied on the conclusion of Peace.-- He wished to know then why thi. practice had been departed from in this instance? A selection had been made from the regiments, and some had been re mained, while others had been disbanded. By means of which selection, burdens had been cast upon par ticuiar counties and districts. It was known that the wives and families of men serving in the militia were supported by their respective counties, and that, by retaining particular regiments embodied, this burden was continued upon the districts and counties to which they belonged. It was, besides, a grievance to the men themselves, who had entered in the expectation of returning to the bosom of their families at the end of the war. It no complaints bad been made by the militia officers against the Measure, it was because of the manner in which the militia had been treated, and on account of the duration of the war, which had rendered it necessary to appoint such officers as dreaded the disenib,clying, as much as regular offi cers did the reduction of their corps, there being little more than the Colonel and Field Officers together, a few Captains in any corps qualified as the old militia law required. Looking upon the subject as of im ortance, he wished to be informed why the selection had been Mr. GORE LANGTON observed, that lie had the honour to command one of the regiments which had been retained disembodied. Notwithstanding their having served for twelve years, and their being on the r return to their native country, when they re ceived the order countermanding was for their being disembodied, they commenced it march from theis ntatelt and dearest connections, and proceeded troni (Word to rotts:nuutil with a zeal ;And alacrity that he could never sufficiently commend. He hoped MI. nisters would take an early opportunity to satisfy the men that their service would not be continued longer than WAS absolutely necessary. He was one . of the oldest Militia Colonels in that House, and he could as'urc Gentlemen, that the retaining the regiments alluded to by the Noble Lord, had excited a strong sensation. Mr. B. BATHURST considered the question of the Noble Lord in two lights, as a question of law and a question of policy as to the measure that had been adopted. On the first point he had only to ob serve, that though we were at peace with one Power we were unfortunately at war with another, and there fore the measure was not contrary to law. With re spect to the hardship on particular counties or dis tricts, sat; posing Government found it necessary to call upon some, though not upon all, would it be eny relief to them to have the same burden made p,eneral? It was found necessary to keep up some of the militia regiments to supply the place of the regular troops employed on foreign service. He could assure the distinguished Militia Officer who had stated the else of the Oxford regiment, that he telt the hardship of I its being, when returning to the county to be disem bodied, ordered to march to a distant destinatioe. Nothing could be more creditable to its character and discipline than the alacrity with which it proceeded on this unexpected service.. He bad no difficulty in saying, that the first opportunity would be taken,even though the war should be confirmed, to restore those meritorious individuals to their families and homes. PUELIC REVENUE. Mr. CHARLES GRANT moved that there be laid before the House, an account of the net produce of the Revenue, in the quarters and years respec tively, ending the sth of October, 181.1, and the sth of October, 181+, distinguishing the totals of Cus toms and Excise. The accounts were ordered, im mediately presented, and ordered to lie on the Table, and to be printed. REPORT OF THE ADDRESS. Lord BRIDPORT brought up the Report of the Address voted yesterday, which was agreed to, and, on the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, ordered to be carried up by the whole House, and such Members as are of the Privy Council, were directed to wait upon his Royal Highness to know when he will be graciously pleased to receive the same. Ordered, on the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the Exentoutt, that the Prince Regent's Speech be taken into farther consideration to-morrow. accost:4n Of ARISTA RS-.-FOREION EXPENDITURE. Mr. TIERNEY asked when the Accounts of the Arrears, alluded to in the Speech, would be laid on the Table? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated. that he feared it would not be practicable to present a complete account till the Army Extraordi naries should be submitted to the consideration of the House. on account of the manner in which the Bills were drawn for different services, and because the whole could not be expectedly be received before then. Mr. TIERNEY desired to know whether there would be no opportunity of ascertaining, by a general winding up, the whole exceeding of the War Expen diture up to the Peace of Paris? The CHANCELLOR-of the EXCHEQUER replied he feared not, as the accounts were so blended that they could not accurately be stated till the Esti mates of the Army Extraordinaries should be sags mit.ed to the House.—Adjourned. Dt.111:11 MAIL. PRIVATE LETTER.—BRUSSELS, OCT. sa. The first subscription Ball commenced onWeines. day, under the patronage of the Duchesses of Rich mond and De Beaufort ; it was select and well attended, and the gocAi order and attention to the comforts of every one reflected credit on the Stew• aids who did themselves the honour to officiate on the occasion. About one o'clock supper was served up for '2OO, when they were regaled with the choicest fruits, witie, and game ot every description that could he procured. The Prince of Orange's health was drank with three and reiterated cheers, which he re• turned in a neat, concise, and well adapted speech.-' Among the company present were— Ht. loyal Highness the Prince of Orange. Dukes—ltiehmond, D'Aremberg, and 1)e Beaufort. Marquis D'Aschc. Earl--Athlone, March, and Mountnorris. Lords—Waterpark, Fitzroy Somerset, John Somerset, and Bi tory. Sirs...W. Gordon, James Wynne de Bath, Henry Clinton, and Ladson Lowe. Admirals—Martin an 4 Donelly. Generals—ilarnel., Cook, and liradsbtre. Culunels--kiarc lay, Hepburn,ll4•Kinnort, Trip, and Colbourn*. Majors-.-Kranchinbrrg, Hantilton, /Nuts, and H.ogel. DoCton—Hyde and drinc. Honourable Messrs.—Capel, Creelße, Cavendish, Brown, Ser moor, Bathurst, Moore, Mayer, Edgcumbe, and krskine. Messrs.—Heskt. h, Desbeawe, hemlock, 'Eyler, Dawkins , Greatbead, Needham, Webster, Roar, laowles, Dor aeon, fall. coon, CUSPS ; Captains Roper, Cotzons. &c. Duchesses--Kichmund and De &motors. Magma, D'Asche. Waterpark, Crawford, Caroline Caps!, Chat late C.:reedits, Geo. Seymour, Fitzroy *menet, Susan an. tun, Frances Webver, three Lenox's, and two rt nacsicys. All atreaws—alionapsaa, Carson, Dormer, Myers, GreatieraJ, Guaira', Erskine, Addles's, Rooks, and hritsitiraw• Spencer Etanbspe, three bony , twa, Ike* Zenner-Fenn coon, Cape's; two bunchy", two Arden', dame sAwendisttes, Seymour' Webster, and Cursor. Thorstlay the Prince of Orange left this place with Lord and Fady Fitzroy Somerset, for hionr, ou their way to Paris ; the Prince returned nest day. ' °cloaca SL—Yesterday the Duke of Richmond entertained a select party at dinner, in the evening the Duchess' de Beautort had a party At supper. BRUSSELS, OCTOBER 31. Letters from Vienna. written by persons who may be depended upon, continue to affirm that the fate of the countries between the Rhine, Moselle, and Meuse, is decided, and that these Provinces, added to Belgium on this side of the Mese and Holland, will form the new State of the United Netherlands, a State whose population may amount to eight millions. and which, in a taw years, by its commerce, its dusts y, and its agriculture, may become one of the most prosperous and powerful Monarchies. We es lira, therefore, with impatience. the result of the Congress at Vienna, to J the c‘nfirmation td . this 'lite English Minister at Ghent having received. on the '2sth, dispatches from London, delivered, on the 19th, a Note in writing to tae American Lega.tiun. Nothing is known of the nesociatious, except ula: the 1 ., i t