Star. — London, England, 1821-05-12 00:00:00

his own motives, and not put false constructions upon his (Sir Ronald Ferguson's). His indignation was of an honest nature, and it was called for by the system of attackitn; indiscriminately every woman in the country—l Hear, hear). The Marquis of LONDONDERRY again ex-; plained. He wished that Honourable Gentlemen! would express the same indignation when other Hon. Members were attacked.--(Cries of Name! I\inne ! I from thc Oppocition.)—The Noble Marquis sat down. M r . WYNN thought the dignity of the House would he compromised, if the suggestion of the No. hie Marquis was adopted. The lenity of the pud.ii. ;tient was a sort of justification of past, and would be an encouragement to future libellers. The H o : n ourable Gentleman then entered into a detailed re view of the complaint of the 16th June, 1819, and contended that the mildness of the punishment then was the cause of so many transgressions being since made, in the way of bad reports, upon the dignity and privileges of the House. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY denied that he had justified libels.; but said that he had referred to the case of the 16th June, merely that the House might, by some adherence to precedents; preserve consistency in its proceedings. Mr. WARD said the attack upon Mr. Canning was of a mote galling nature than this upon the Ho nourable Member for Shrewsbury, because it was a general reflection on his character which he could not meet; whereat the attack on the Honourable Member stated facts which it was easy to refute. He thought, therefore, that case wa. a good precedent to govern the present one.—Mr.IVYNN explained. Lord JOHN RUSSELL would not give an opinion upon the punishment which ought to be resorted to in the case of these individuals. lie thought the lightest punishment more consistent with the dignity of the House. In the case alluded to, the Right Hon. (Gentleman used some words to justify the observa tines upon his speech in the Times newspaper. He rose principally to protest against the insinuation thrown out by the Noble Marquis, that that side of t h e House countenanced publications similar to John Bull—l Hear, hear).—lt was true a great many papers had made remarks connected with the support of a party; but the Noble Marquis was wrong in con founding political remarks with attacks on private character—(icar, hear).—One might be answered, the other never could. If the Noble Lord, for instance,' was charged with causing his country men to be flog ged in Ireland, the Noble Lord, by a reference to his public lite, might refute the imputation if it was unu uo. But a charge against a woman was of a dif- .! fere.. nature. Suppose a charge was made against a feniale relation of the Noble Lord's, would he like that her whole conduct should be scrutinized in order to prove it false ?—(lieur, hear).—There was sometliii:g of delicacy in the female character which shrunk from the gaze of the public eye and ear ; to prove a malicious charge against her was' untrue, a woman of delicacy was unwilling to be dragged into notice—( Hear, hear).—He charged the Noble Lord with giving countenance to this vile publication— (tlPar, hear).—He asked the Noble Lord, was it not sent to the Ambassadors abroad ; and if it did not argue some degree of Court favour to have it sent thus post free ?—(Hear, hear).—He charged also that Ministers countenanced it by buying it; be did not speak of reading, for on the question of support that was nothing—(Laughter).—However, if he was con vinced that they did so countenance this paper, he would tell them, without reserve, that they were guilty of a moral assassination !—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear r from various parts of the House). The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he knew not from what source the Noble Lord had derived his information and politics ; but he despised the foul calumny attempted to be cast upon him, from what ever quarter it might come—AHear, hear).—lf the Noble Lord could shew that any person connected with his (the Marquis of Londonderry's) office, had circulated statements of so base a description, that person should be immediately dismissed—(Hear). — Ile regarded with a mixture of contempt and indig nation the charges implied in the speech of the Noble Lord ; and he could not help observing, that where interests not less sacred than those involved in the present question were ac stake, no question had been raised in that House against the offending patty.— Yes, he would say, that in cases where Majesty itself Was insulted and reviled, no notice had been taken— (Hear, hear).—.He should be glad to know if the Noble Lord had not taken in the publications of Mr. Hone ?—( Cries of " No, no !" from Me Opposition benctia ).—He did not mean to attack the principles of the Noble Lord, or of his brother, who was not now present ; but he was led to understand that they had sanctioned some publications which had issued from the press of Mr. lion—(Repeated cries of "No, nor)—lt appeared to him very strange that the Noble Lord should now come forward with so much asperity, after he had suffered several libels to escape his notice which were of a much more repre hensible character than the present. At the same time, I he did not Mail to Say that the Noble Lord did not' entertain the greatest abhorrence of any unjustifiable attack upon private characters—( Hear). Mr. COUt TENAY was anxious to call the atten tion of theuse to that which was the true question to be considered. He admitted that no language, however strong, could sufficiently reprobate the libel complained of; but then it ought not to be visited with a greater measure of severity than others of a still more atrocious nature. The Honourable and Learned Member then instanced a certain paragraph which appeared in a newspaper, reflecting on the condect of Mr. Canning, and contended that it was as e at a breach of privilege as that now brought the consideration of the House. bird JOHN RUSSELL, i n exp l anat i on , d en i e d having ever taken in any of Mr. Hone's publica tions; but he believed they were of a political nature, and not subversive of private character. Mr. W. SMITH, though the last man in existence I n call a man to the Bar of the House for a political ,* would still, on ;he p resent occas i on , agree to tne utmost measure of severity which the House might be disposed to sanction. It appeared that the ~I " iter of the libel in question was actuated by ma ngnant feelings, which might bring about a private quarrel, and lead to the shedding of blood. He had m 'erted the paragraph upon no other ground than t hat of public rumour ; and now, forsooth, he was to be excused merely because he was a base, worth less wretch, who could sport with the private charac ter of unsullied purity—(Hear, hear). Mr. C. HUTCHINSON commented on the enor mity of the libel t. and contended that there was no analogy whatever between it and the charge upon which Mr. Collier, the Reporter for the Times, had been brought to the Bar. That Gentleman had acted in the - most candid and honourable manner. It ap peared that he had not the most remote idea of giving publicity to any statement that would hurt the feel ings of the Right Honourable Gentleman who had brought the complaint before the House. Mr. WILMOT felt himself called upon to support the motion ; but deprecated the idea of mixing it up with any other question, except the abstract libel un der consideration. • Mr. A. BA BING explained, and said that the only feeling by which the House ought to be actuated was one that went to the vindication of its own privileges. Mr. BANKES said he had been a reluctant party to the vote in the former case. The Marquis of LONDONDEItRY withdrew his Amendment ; and said, that the former precedent would have been more honoured in the breach than in the rigorous observance of it. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH then suggested to his Noble Friend (Lord Nugent) the propriety of with drawing his Amendment, in deference to the opinion of the House, which was decidedly against him. Lord NUGENT observed, that he was ready to acquiesce, finding that the sentiments of the Hon. Gentlemen were opposed to his views of the question. The Noble Lord then withdrew his Amendment. Mr. BROUGHAM wished to observe, that the case of Mr. Collier differed materially from the pre sent question. That Gentleman had not been guilty of a wilful misrepresentation ; and the propriety of his demeanour at the Bar gave additional strength to the consistent statement he had made. The Hon. and Learned Member then referred to the particulars in Mr. Collier's case, and insisted that there was not the slightest similarity between it and the present of fence, which ought to be punished with the heaviest penalty that the House could inflict. The House then divided on Mr. BARING'S motion, and the numbers were: Ayes - Noes - - - - 109 - - - 23 Majority for the Motion On the re-admission of strangers to the Gallery, Mr. S. BOURNE was complaining of the severity of the examination which the parties had undergone at the Bar, as tending to inculpate themselves. No thing could be more unjust than such a proceeding towards persons accused. Sir J. MACKINTOSH had heard with surprize the observations of the Right Honourable Member, after the question had been disposed of. It seemed that the Right Hon. Member had listened to state ments which lie considered derogatory to the charac ter of the House, merely from the apprehension of exposing himself to obloquy by opposing them. He (Sir J. Mackintosh) regretted exceedingly that the Right Hon. Member could have remained silent from the fear of the popular voice being raised against him. This would obviously tend to lessen the weight and authoi ity of the first Assembly in the realm. By the let et consuetudo Parliamenti, that Assembly had a right to examine and inquire into all matters relating to its privileges. If the Right Honourable Gentleman should have fallen into an error on the subject, he would have been corrected by those whose duties made them always.vigilant, in cases where the privi leges of the House were concerned, and whose expe rience rendered them, in every respect, qualified to judge when a breach of privilege had taken place. Mr. STURGES BOURNE explained, and main tained, that there was a peculiar hardship in making witnesses at the bar commit themselves by their ad missions. It appeared to him, that no more ques tions ought to be asked of any witness than were merely necessary to develope the facts of the case. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH and Mr. S. BOURNE mu tually explained. Mr. SCARLETT said, that the great object had been to discover the author, and then to ascertain the motives by which he was actuated in writing the libel. Where, therefore, the author of the libel came forward and avowed himself, the course to be pur sued was the next thing the House had to consider. Sir W. DE CRESPIGNY hoped that the Hon. Gentleman would do him the credit to believe, that in the few questions which he had put to the wit nesses, he was actuated by a sense of justice, and a deep interest for the vindication of the privileges of the House. Lord NUGENT entered into an explanation of a question which he had put to one of the witnesses. He begged to say, that he had not asked a word about the Traveller Newspaper. He conceived the Right Hon. Gentleman was not justified in imputing improper intentions to him. Mr. S. BOURNE disclaimed imputing any inten tion to the Noble Lord. He had merely risen for the purpose of expressing a difference of opinion upon the question then before the House. Mr. WYNN defended the course which had been taken, and the line of examination that had been adopted. He was clearly of opinion that Weaver was guilty of gross prevarication, in his statement about the proceeds of the Paper. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY suggested that it would be proper to have the evidence printed and considered by the House, if they were determined to proceed with the matter. Sir JOHN NEWPORT wished to have the names of the witnesses disunited in the Motion of the Ho nourable Member. Mr. DENMAN expressed himself to the same 1 effect. He begged to say that he had been one of those who voted in the majority for sending Cooper to Pariiiunent—(Laughter)—he meant to Newgate ; and he considered that, in so doing, he was acting upon the soundest principles of justice—(Hear). Mr. BERNAL said, that having voted in the mi norizy on that occasion, be would claim for himself the credit of having acted upon the same principles ; and he could assure the House that be was not guided in any manner by a doubt that the House had the power to commit and punish the violators of its privileges. Mr. `Y. SMITH was of opinion that the three per sons prevaricated exceedingly. He considered there was no necessity for having the evidence printed ; and moved, that R. T. Weaver was guilty of grosspreva, rication at the Bar of that House. Mr. T. WILSON considered the story with respect to the transfer of proprietorship very natural, and therefore was not prepared to declare it untrue, any more than to affirm that it was true. He did not think there was any necessity for having the evi dence printed. Lord STANLEY said he had heard the whole of the evidence, and was prepared to say, that if he ever witnessed an attempt to defeat the ends of justice by I gross prevarication, he witnessed it in this instance. —Hardly.a single question with respect to the pro prietorship of the paper was answered in an honest candid manner. They all seemed to have some con cealed purpose, and scarcely in any instance to mean what they avowed. The gallery was then cleared for a division on the question that Robert Thomas Weaver was guilty of gross prevarication, but the question was carried in the affirmative without a division. Whilst strangers were excluded from the gallery, Mr. W. SMITH m ove d t h at R o b ert Thomas Weaver be committed to the custody of the Serjeant at Arms, preparatory to his being xeprimanded by the Speaker; upon which Mr.WyNN proposed an Amendment, that he be committed to Newgate. On a division the numbers were, on the Amendment— Ayes - Nuts - - - 54 - - 27 Majority for the Amendment - -7 A motion was next made declaring that Shackell and Arrowsmith were guilty of prevarication, and an Amendment was proposed, that the minutes of evidence be printed. On the re-admission of strangers to the Gallery, Mr. 'BROUGILA NI was on his legs, speaking in favour of the Amendment. Mr. C. LONG said he was aware that there was great doubt that those persons were guilty of preva- I ncation. As the House had now gone so far, and in consideration of the doubt which prevailed with re spect to these persons, he felt it to be his duty to sug gest to the House not to proceed any further (Hear). Mr. BARING rose to express his entire concur rence in the suggestion of the Right Hon. Gentle man. Ile did not mean to state that the evidence of those persons was by any means clear evidence, but he thought that their prevarication was not so apparent as to justify the House in puni s hi ng f or it. Colonel DAVIES had no doubt that they preva ricated, and v fished the evidence to be printed. Mr. WYNN had no doubt that they prevaricated; but seeing that there was a reasonable doubt on the minds of several Honourable Members, he thought it to be his duty to recommend to the House to pro ceed no further at present. The Gallery was again cleared, but no division took place, and the Amendment for Printing the Evidence was agreed to. STATE OF EUROPE. On the Order of the Day being read for going into the Committee of Supply, Mr. C. HUTCHINSON rose, and said he very re cently endeavoured to call the attention of the House to the state of Europe. If anything could be more alarming than the acts which had been done by fo reign Powers, it was the pretensions which were put forth, having the sanction and authority of his Ma jesty's Ministers in that House. As the Noble Mar quis had come forward and declared the sentiments of the Government on that subject, on Monday last, when he had no opportunity of replying to him, he should feel it his duty to record his own sentiments on the Journals of the House. It had been his inten tion to have gone into the subject at length this even ing ; but the late hour of the night, and having been requested by several Gentlemen (particularly by one peculiarly qualified to take part in the discussion) to postpone it, he felt it incumbent on him to comply with their wishes; and though it was painful to him to defer the consideration of the question so long, yet on looking to the Order Book, he could find no open day before Tuesday, the 2'2d instant, on which day he should have the honour to bring it forward. SUPPLY. On the motion for going into a Committee of Supply, Mr. HUME could not suffer the Speaker to leave the Chair without exposing the extravagant scale of the Ordnance Estimates. The present vote would be for £1,327,000, and that too in the present distressed state of the country. In 1820, it was £1,381,000; but in 1817, the sum was £1,283,000. He entered into a variety of calculations, to shew that, in his opinion, no intention of economy e x i s t e d on the part of his Majesty's Government. He went through his former statements as to the savings that might have been made by the reduction of numerous agents and store-keepers. These Estimates he characterized as being like a tailor's bill—a great deal too long. New clerks were put on, and then, in a short time, they were suffered to go on half-pay; while other new clerks were put in their rcom, on full pay. The Se cretary for the Ordnance had said, that sixty-eight agents and clerks had been reduced ; but he (Mr. Hume) believed they had only been removed to half pay, while sixty-seven new ones had been put on full pay. This Estimate was £43,334 more than the ave rage of the three last years ; and he did say, it was monstrous to be called at this time to vote such a sum out of the public money. He then read a series of Resolutions, recommending economy to the Com mittee on the Ordnance Estimates. Mr. R. WARD said, if the object of the Honour able Gentleman had been to record his opinion on the Journals, he would prefer taking the debate in the Committee. Colonel DAVIES thought it would be better to tike the debate now, and the Estimates on Monday, or any other day. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY thought the debate had better be taken in the Committee. Mr. BENNETT thought on the contrary. Mr. It. %V AltD then said, that his answer to the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) was, that these. appear ances arose from the fact of the Ordnance Office being obliged to make up their accounts every year ; a considerable part of the excess which had been com plained of arose from balances brought from 1819 to 1820, and placed in that account. The Ordnance had also performed business for the Treasury, and the Military Civil Service, for which they had been paid. This was never carried anywhere else but against the Ordnance, and not against the Offices which had ad vanced those stims. Mr. BENNE i T advised the Right lion. Gentle man to make out his accounts in a way more ea s ily to be understood by the PuLlic. . . ~ Mr. R.VARD said h e was i t idi ne d to do so. - ' The House then divided—For the Motion, lio— the Amendment, 56—Majority, 54. -: When strangers were admitted, the Howe was in a Committee, and Mr. R. WA RD on his legs, opening the Ordnance Estimates. The Hon. Gentleman commenced by protesting against the petty warfare which some Gentlemen seemed inclined to wage. He v islied to - meet the question -broadly. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to enter into some explanatbry re marks on the nature of the Ordnance Department ; which, he said, was not confined, as some Honour able Gentlemen seemed to think, to keeping up a corps of 8000 men. On the contrary, the Ordnance Department comprised a Military Depot, a Military Manufactory, an Audit, and Department of Ac counts, &c. In the time of Cromwell this Depart ment expended, exclusive of half-pay, £122,000; now, exclusive of half-pay, the expenditure was not more than £1,000,000, a sum not equal to £122,000 in 1652. With respect to the extra expenditure of this Department, he took some credit co himself on that head ; for, at the conclusion of the American war, the Ordnance Department was £1,700,000 or £1,800,000 in debt ; at the conclusion of the late war they did not owe a single pound. One obser vation was necessary, as regarded the charge of stores. From the time of Queen Anne down to 1818, half the charge for stores was charged on the Naval Estimates, but in 1818, in consequence of a recommendation ofa Committee, the whole expense of stores was thrown on the Ordnance, by which an an nual expense of £53,000 was cast on this Department. This had destroyed the appearance of reduction upon the whole vote. Yet a reduction had in fact taken place yearly since 1817, and during the present year there would be a reduction of £52,000 at least.— The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) had taken his stand, and drawn a comparison between the present year and 1792. He was not surprised at this when he considered the Report of the Committee of Finance on that subject, but he must contend the Committee had acted on erroneous principles, and, therefore, their Report also was erroneous. The Hon. Gentle man then entered into a statement of the scale of reduction in this department in different years after the last four wars, and contended that the reduction since the conclusion of the last war had been more rapid than on any preceding occasion. The increase of our colonies since 1792 was worthy of remark. ‘Ve had now 109 establishments, of these 56 were new since the year 1792, which was more than one half of the whole number. This, of itself, rendered it impossible to revert to the scale of the year 1792. He also denied the assertion of the Honourable Mem ber, that money now went as far as in 1792, in the purchase of necessaries. It might do so in cases where large sunis were employed ; but it would not do so in the cases of clerks receiving only 4.200 or £3OO a-year. The Member for Aberdeen had stated, that salaries had been increased enormously ; and he instanced the Storekeeper at Dover, who had now £500; - whereas, in 1792, he had o n ly £120 ; b ut i t should be recollected that, in 1792, he had perqui sites which made his income more than £5OO • in deed, in many ye ars , i t wou ld h ave produced £9OO. So as to the Store-keeper at Chatham, his salary was now fixed at £500; had he still enjoyed his perqui sites his place would have produced him £l,lOO or £1,200. The Honourable Gentleman then entered into a detail of the different appointments made in the Ordnance, and contended that the Member for Aberdeen had entirely failed in making out his as sertion that there was an extravagant waste of public money in this department. He next entered into a comparison of the expenditure of 1792 and of the present year item by item, and throwing out the Horse Artillery, and other establishments, which did' not exist in 1792, and the establishments of 56 Colo• nies, which did not exist in 1792, it would be found that the Ordinaries and Contingencies of the present year exceeded 1792 by the sum of I:59,000, and the Extraordinaries by £B,lOO, whilst the unprovided of 1792 exceeded those of the present year by £2,000. The whole excess was about £65,000, against which was to be set old stores on hand—increased rent and takes—the union of Ireland and England, t y which a considerable additional expense was cast on Eng land—and lastly, the great improvements which had taken place throughout the whole Department. He was desirous it should be known to the Empire at large, that the excess of 1821 over 1792, in chit wasteful Department, was 4:65,000. The Honour able Member then proceeded to take a review of the salaries of the clerks; he acknowledged that a trifling addition had been made to the salaiies of some of the individuals in the lower dep laments. Still they were much worse paid than the clerks in any private count ing -house, and their salaries were lower than those of any other of the Government Offices not e::cepting even the Victualling O ff i ce. The Hon. Gentleman, after some further observations, proposed a Resolu tion for a grant of 1:43,070, for paying the salaries of the Master-General of tlic Ordnance, Clerks, &c. Mr. P. MOORE said he had listened with as much attention as possible to the long statement made by the Honourable Member, at this late hour; and he now felt it his duty to 'state, that in future, whilst these Estimates were under consideration, he would, out of regard to the health of the House, and to others of his Majesty's subjects, move an adjourn ment every night at tWolve o'clock; he would com mence imunliately, by moving that the Chairman do now report progress, and ask leave to sit again. The Motion was immediately adopted, non. con. The House resumed, and the other Orders were disposed of.—Adjourned at Half-past One. A FrIr7ING OCCURRINCR.—Yesterday, while Miss Slums(); of Drury-Lime Theatre, was rehearsing the prt of Mary, in the Ina kviscr's Daughter, a letter was brought to her, on perusing of which she sunk down on the stage in strong hysterics. Her bro ther was immediately sent for, who, after looking at the note, placed his 1 - ...utis on his eyes, and remained for cone tittle in , sensible. The letter cantained a communication of the death of their father. The afflicted relatives subsequently recover, and left the Theatre. In consequence of the above occiarrei.ce, Miss Kzet.v, last night, undertook the part which had been assigned to Miss SMIT!IsON. TIICATRICAL FRACAS.— Yesterday afternoon, a novel scene took place in the neighbourhood of Drury-Lane Thestre, be tween Mr. 6cossor, jun. of the Royal Coburg, and Mr. Wisc... SION, the acting Manager of the former Theatre. On Mr. %VW. 5r , ”.4 leaving the Stage-door he was attack.d eons ecrcmonie by Mr. GLossor, who proceeded to horsewhip the MAlLiter with great Severity in the presence of a crowd of persons. The par ties then separated. Various reports are :n circidatiotarespect. mg the cause of this affray. I :- F ,