Star. — London, England, 1808-01-29 00:00:00

I) . , After a short further conversation the Motion was agreed to, and ordered to be communicated to Lord Gambier, when in his place in the House. Loid HAWKESBURY next moved Thanks to the Vice Admiral Sir H. E. Stanhope, Bart. Rear- Admirals Essington, Sir Samuel Hood, K. B. Keats; • Capt. Sir Home Popham, K. M. Captain of the Fleet, and the other Officers. - The Duke of NORFOLK aFked, whether it was usual to include the Captain of a fleet by name in a Vote of Thanks ? Lord MITI.GRAVE said it had been on the at tack upon Copenhagen in 1801, when the Captain of the Fleet was named in the Thanks. Earl GREY thought the Captain of the Fleet upon that occasion was a Rear-Admiral. Lord HOLLAND observed that Sir Thomas Hardy was not thanked in the victory of Trafalgar. Lord MULGRAVE said, Sir Thomas Hardy was 'hot Captain of the fleet. The Earl of LAUDERDALE observed: that it would be a most singular circitnistancd if Sir Home Popham was . to he made the first instance of the Cap , taM of a fleet being thanked by name. Lord HAWKESBURY said, he understood there were several instances of the Captain of a fleet being . thanked by name, and that in Lord Howe's victory Sir Roger Curtis, then Captain of the fleet, was in chided by name. The motion was agreed to—as was also a motion for approving and acknowledging the services of the Seamen and Marines, both which were ordered to be communicated by the Lord Chancellor to Lord Gambier. NEUTRAL COMMERCE. Lord HOLLAND give notice a his intention to move on Ninnday for any information communicated to his Majesty's j..;to vtrnment by the Ministers of Neutral Powers, respecting the rrrinner in which the French Decree of the 21st rovember, 1806, was intended to be executed. RUSST A. Earl GREY wished to know whether there was any answer given by Lord G. L. Gower to the note of Baron Budberg (in the Papers relating to Russia), stating several complaints on the part of the Russian Government against this country. Lord HAWKESBURV was not prepared to give an answer. Earl GREY gave notice of his intention to move fof the pro duction of any such document. Adjourned till to-morrow (this day). HOUSE OF COMMONS. rttot.E 'NON. Mr. M. A. TAYLOR pve notice of his intention to move to morrow for the ristponment of the consideration of the Poole Election Petition for ten days. Mr. JEFFERY objected to this, on the ground that no reasons were stated. Mr. TAYLOR observed, that the day had been fixed on an understanding, that if any of the parties objected, the considera tion should be postponed. Mr. JEFFERY stated, that if that was the case, it was with -1 ' out his knowledge. After an observation from the SPEAKER, that generally speaking, the convenience of the House wai to be consulted, ex cept some special circumstances were stated by one or both of the parties, the notice was allowed to stand. BRAZIL TRADE. Mr. ROSE, according to notice moved, that a Committee should be appointed to examine the Navigation Act, so far as re lated to the permission of the importation of Brazil goods in Bra sil vessels. Mr. LUSHINGTON wished to know to what extent the per mission was intended to be granted, and to what articles it was to refer. This was material with a view to the present state of • the commerce of our West India Colonies. Mr. ROSE said that this circumstance had not escaped his at tention. But the whole would be best discussed in the Committee. The Committee was then appointed for Tuesday. MARGATE PIER. Sir E. KNATCHBI7I.I. presented a Petition from the Com missioners of the Margate Pier, praying aid to reyair the tate da mages.—Ordered to be referred to a Committee. AMERICAN INTEIt('OCNSE. Mr. ROSE, pursuant to notice, moved for a Com mittee on the Act of Navigation, as far as related to American intercourse. After some preliminary conversation between Mr. Rose and Mr. Eden, respecting the particular Act to he continued, which was stated by the former to be that of 1797, the motion was agreed to, and the ques tion put, whether the Speaker should leave the Chair? • Mr. EDEN expressed his hinh satisfaction, that there appeared in this a spirit of amity and concilia tion, with regard to the United States, and a dispo sition to continue our intercourse with them on friend ly terms, although he did not know upon what ground the hope of doing this was founded: But he was sus , - prized at the proposition to continue the Act of 1797. That Act relating to a treaty of commerce with the United States, concluded by Lord Grenville and Mr. Jay, was totally inapplicable to the present circum stances. Had the Right Hon. Gentleman read that Act ? If he had, he must have found, that the very preamble rested on the supposition upon entire free dom of commerce between the two countries. While the Americans, however, had passed a Non-importa tion Act, and laid an embargo on their vessels, ought we to pass an act , assuming as its basis the entire freedom of commerce ? The old Act would pot ex pire for five weeks from th!s, and every day and hour might bring intelligence that might alter the state of the case. Why not wait till we knew what impres sion the Orders of Council might have produced? It was possible, perhaps, that when the Americans I learned that the only trade they could have would be i with British Ports, they might r e p eal their Non-Ins- I portation Act. But if they should be so unreasonable as to resent this, and quarrel with regulations so ge-1 nerously intended for the protection of neutrals, there would be no need to pass this or any other Act. But he objected on another ground. It was well known that several articles of the Treaty of 1794 had been incorporated in the late Treaty, which the American Government had unfortunately refused to ratify.— Whether the negociation on that head was at an end• or still going on, it would be improper to p::ss-an Act of this kind, for this, among; other reasons, that se veral articles must be continued which it was proposed in the Treaty to repeal. . Mr. ROSE replied, that in the Act of 1797, it was provided, that unless certain arrangements took place with regard to the 12th Article, the A 4 should not enntinue beyond a cerain 'period. No arrangements took place, and the Act expired in 1801. But it was • judged proper, that the Act should he still further Continued, in hopes of an arrangement, and accord: ingly it was continued till after the commencement of this Session. His Hon. Friend had said, that it did i not expire till five weeks from this time. This was true, 'out then c onsidering the timelhat the passing of an act required, it was necessary immediately to do something. He said, that all this.was in favour of America, while America was unfavourable to us. His answer was, that if America was hostile to was becoming the dignity of Parliament-tia 'aft moderation, and to grant advantages fora 'heat time till matters came to a crisis. If we were to err, it was better in this instance to err on the side of for bearance rather than precipitation ( hear ! hear •He said, that the preamble was inconsistent with fir present circumstances. It would be perfectly. compe tent to his Hon. Friencliti mini an alteration in the Committee if he thought proper ; but it was better to continue our friendly relations with America, than to break off abruptly (hear ! hear !).—By the Act of Navigation no goods could be imported from Ame rica, except in British ships. This surely. was not a situation in which we should wish to place our inter course withthe.United States. It turned 'out on the whole then, that what his Hon. Friend wished must be, that the matter should be left with the King and Council. But any -inconvenience :from applying to Parliament would be ob - viived, by providing in the Act, that there should ,be a...liberty to alter it this Session, as occasion might require. Something of this kind must of necessity be done, unless we were ready to adopt an entire new system with regard to the'United States. This, however; Parliament was ' not as yet compelled to do, and in the mean time the proper method was to proceed with caution and mo deration. Mr. EDEN disclaimed any intention whatever to interrupt our friendly correspondence with America. His objection went solely to the mode in which it was proposed to carry it on. , The House then went into a Committee. Mr. ROSE proposed, that the Chairman should move the House, for leave to bring in a Bill to continue the American Intercourse Act. Agreed to. The House resumed, the Report was received and leave given. Exesurrioai TO COPENHAGEN. • Lord CASTLEREAGWrose in pursuance of the notice he had given, to make his promised motion for a Vote of Thanks to the Officers of the Army and Navy. Ile said, that whatever difference of opinion I might prevail as to the political points, on the object of the expedition itself, he flattered himself that dif ference would not be suffered to prevail on the present question of a Vote of Thanks to the Officers who had so ably executed the orders which had been committed to their charge. He hoped that in this question the'. House would, as it had always done on similar occa sions, separate the idea of the order itself from the merits of those who had been appointed to execute it. The House had always determined not to mix the principle of the order with the execution of it ; and he was sure they would do so on the present occasion, because those Gentlemen who really opposed the po litical motives of the expedition were equally interested in the event of the military who had been employed in it having properly done their duty, and added to that high character which the British forces by land and sea had rendered so deservedly and eminently conspicuous. He apprehended, therefore; that the only j question would now be, whether the expedition was a measure of that high importance ; and whether the', difficulties attending it were of so great and of such extent as to deserve the highest public reward which can be bestowed on any subject in this country, viz. the Thanks of that and the other House? He wished particularly to call the attention of the House to that part of the subject which related to the difficulties of the enterprise. These being well known to his Ma jesty's Ministers, they had thought it their duty to provide the most ample and abundant means in order to ensure success, and to send such a force as should render resistance altogether impossible. They were also desirous to do this, in order to soften and alle viate the feelings of the Danes, in being compelled to submit to a superior force, and to justify them in the ' eyes of the world for having yielded to a Power, which it would have been madness in the extreme to resist. Our military force assembled at Copenhagen was certainly a very powerful one ; yet it was essentially his duty, and due to our army and navy, to call the attention of the House to the great difficulties attend ing the expedition. An idea had gone abroad that the island of Zealand was not in a condition to' resist ; but this was by no means the case. The actual force of the Danes there considerably exceeded the amount of the British troops. He did not mean thereby to speak only of their regular force, but to take in also their armed citizens and regular militia : and all those collectively constituted a force amounting to not less than 35,0(X) men, within and without the walls of Copenhagen. The garrison within the walls, he said, amounted to 15,000 men ; that of Cronenburgh to about 4000 ; and besides these, they had another force which had been drawn from different parts of the island, and which, in spite of the vigilance of our blockading ships, had been thrown into the island from their army ,in Holstein, which altogether had been stated to amount to 16,000 men, making in the whole the number he had mentioned of 35,000. Blit it was not the amount of the .forces only which constituted the difficulties our bras:: troops had to contend with. They had to attack a town, which in point of extent was equal to most of the largest fortresses in Europe • a town so fortified by. art and nature on the side of die sea, as to. render any attack that way perfectly nugatory, for against such it ivai'iati6 he invulnerable, mut on 'the land side it was only to be attacked by - regular ap proaches, and by bombardment. He begged Gentle me:: to consider what were the nature and extent of the place, and the lengtl• of time that must be neces-, salt to reduce it ; and they must be satisfied of the initoemie exertions of our troops. Here he must men-1 tion - d-Cittannstance which redounded so greatly to their'hirrnanity, that after all their difficulties, and labours, and toils, they made again the offer of the same faidenrable conditions which had been previously made refused, thereby shewing that they were truly and siocerely desirous to save the effusion of human blood. Those-offers being again rejected, the bombardment of cinirse took place, and no man re gretted or lamented more than he did the melancholy effects it 11.1 i produc ati. Under these circumstances, he thought the Hou 'oust be of opinion with him, that the C (fivers e-aph yed on this expedition 'had tarried it into execution in the most honourable and masterly manlier that an attack of such k natal* was prFsibly capable of. It I-ad been ai4ieved most effec tually, most successfi Ile. and most humanely; and no effort had been left untried to spare the effusion of human blood, and to *render the conquest as little Painful and injurious to the feelingi of the Danes as possible. In moving a resolution of this kin& he Should think it would be a direliction obis duty, did he not call the attention of the House to the merit of .r sue, those individuals who, from the nature .est And could the House vote thanks, • r ' Had instill- qu . • ticaiSle knew had been particularly active an __. ... , of his situa-- tish officer was entitle'd to take credit for t as air e 't out sereiee, for the reduction of a Pester so situ. mental in the success of it in the fitting i • Lordehipthe ' then passed a very high encomium on e l It was a service in which there wa s • ' vett • and if we did, our exultiee to C 1 was ei no cello , seracefai treat exertions of the Victualling. and Transport n- to us. It would lay us open to siepicion s 1 Boards, both of which bad performed the most risen- i . o eur ne m at i od liery I clonal character, in countries wh 'l%! th e • e• by the speed .and celerity , inter ,fiat. services to the countrya reach, that we considered such ,eryices as neri with which every thing , had been got ready for the, m• _ He thought the advice ;even to th e Is!" in a much sherterspac ors.r e Wag equipment of the expedition, • • iby Ministers, to confer the Peerage on Admiral Cam. of time than had ever before been known on any simi- . had also , bier, was highly blameable. He had no hi:ewe:in ;3 tar occasion, and acknowledged Ministers d artillery de -I saying, he servi • • • that the nature of t . Le did not at all been greatly indebted to the engineer a . n . h they ant such a distinction. The literal ni • al and activity with wine ey i warn caning, o f partments for the ze - was, the harbour of merchants ; and thin. 't would had both exerted themselves , without whichi of ; fore, it was an inglorious conquest. Admiral Gam have been impossible that a town so fortified, and . 1 . all much less in bier, si s e • h ad bq "de •h d been very little at se • " a ; with the ea. such extent, could have been taken at , . - of ie d H , action, - time. ion or out s he u a so short a •He thought. it eqeally necessary to , ce.pt, never hoed of before or since. If the capture ci the Cape call the attention of the House to our Navy, which, !Gad Hope was not deserving tit thank ,surd} e,ml. though from the situation of the place on the sea side, : lundt • of Copenhagenh d far I . "' e ring it could not be actively engaged against it, yet by the ! p . g _ofthe regular and strict blockade which it effected, it pre- j the gratitude - !)_A s to C o p e rtha.! the conduct of Ministers, in advii.ing the •e i ,,, vented fresh troops from being thrown into t b te gen, or from being landed in many parts along se e x_ grant them honours, and the nieviel of then: clun• I t hou hit • •of -• I• l the 4 ' oug t quite a piece eit 1 a rest e t L ee, tensive a shore, where they might have annoyed our le • s essen , troops in different posts e and by those mean conduct. He thought it exhibited a striking ' instance of what might becalled Ministerial corruptier s daily served the operations, and contributed greatly lt a waste and abuse of the public money, t to the ease, eomfert, security, and • assistance of the was . .O gra r t any pension or ether remuneration for such ase s e s , army. After the town surrendered, never uer • e such It was robbing the poor, and had besides, the t etef. exertions before made as were then by them, in taking • i the fleet, a vast fect of doing away that honourable ,pirit, which, h e possession of and conveying on boatel, variety of stores which were found there, in so short a hoped, wouTd ever be the pride of this county. lc space of time as would be thought incredible ; for was usual in cates of treason to add to the horrors o e there were scarcely six weeks allowed to effect that, the punishment as much as possible. Ministers ac e s l hisit differenti which with only common exertions would, in genera l+ - Y • . on this occasion. They - . mageted act at Copt:till:igen into e sill!ltditi .i.C•ier require more than double that period. Having stated those matters, which he felt it his duty to do at some It rteembled the pride of a man he heard of, wh ee l length, he would not then take up more of the time of p to tit a silk stocking on his woolen leg on Lee ! the House, but conchide by movingthefollowsng rise -IV . • -• Oceor's Day—( A laugh.)--They were u2R eq T lotions. He then read the first to the following purport : ashamed . of the late affair, arid yet they wished to else its deformity, by dressing it up with a silk start. ) That the Thanks of that House be gleen to Lord Cathcart, for g the judicious and decisive measures hehad adopttst.tiaivarris re- . ing and a diamond buckle. He concluded by elem. during the Tovrn and fortifications of Copenhagen. - I ing his decided disapprobation of the vote of dealt Mr. WINDHAM rose to make a few, observe- . Mr. BRAND declined entering at a l l upon e tions upon what had fallen f rom the Noble Lord.— merits of,the service, in which that part of the air The Right Honourable Gentleman was ready to': and navy had been employed, to which it was x subscribe to what the Noble Lord had said generally proposed to vote the thanks of the House, but het with respect to the services of the army and nitey.— precated the House now coming to a resolnii They had done all that men ought or could in their which would preclude it from afterwards comings. situation ; but then it did not follow that because decision upon the question and policy of the end they had performed their duty, Parliament were to tion. One of the grounds on which the expedite! give them thanks. The Noble Lord in the course of was justified, was the alledged weakness of Den his speech had endeavoured to impress the House with to defend herself had she been attacked by Fiera the necessity (idconsidering the question) of keeping and he conceived, that it would be altogether ;net the merits of the service performed, distinct from the sistentto pass a vote of theaks for a service veld merits which he unquestionably seemed to think were derives its principal importance from the degree due to him and his coadjutors for setting , . it a going. resistance which those employed in ithad to encountei There was the dhficnity, and the only dificulty which : . The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEI could arise. It was impossible that in calling upon ' said, that the motion now before the House won. the House to vote its thanks, the propriety of voting by no means have the effect pretended by the He them could be kept distinct from the propriety of the • Gentleman, and that it neither entered into the re service. (Cries 4 hear ! hear ! ) We were centime. temptation of his Noble Friend, who proposedoe ally heating of brilliant services performed (without " of the Right Hon. Gentleman who opposed the At meaning to depreciate this), -such as cutters opposed solution, ilia• it in any way pledged the House to a against frigates, &c. and in one instance lately, the opinion upon the nies it or demerit ofthose who pie of a packet veil gallantly beating off a privateer, but ned the expedition. He wished that that Right Hie were the House to be called upon to thank persons Gentleman had so discussed the question immediai for these sort of services ? and yet they were highly ho- before the House, as not at least to afford sere nourable to the nation. No : the reward they received : grounds of suspicion, that his mind was wound. was in another place. Well them, would the impor-' • prejudiced upon the question nut now before then-. tance of this capture warrant to call upon Parliament He would not, however, be tempted to any for its thanks ? Thanks were a sort of national ema- I that had fallen from the Right Honourable Gene nation arising from public exultation at sonic impor- , man, to transgress the limits of the present quefse tant national achievement. (Loud cries of hear! hear!)! not even to reply to the charge, that Ministenled Was this so ? Exultation at the event was always I planned the expedition from no other than the Fill implied by some demonstrations wh i c h broke out.— I motive of keeping their places, the solidity Wean Could it in the present instance be so implied ? Had lof which he should leave with the cool judgneetd there been any national feelings exhibited of joy and the House, and the cool judgment of the Right Ha trinmph, when the information of the seizure of the Gentleman himself. What he meant now wart Danish fleet was first announced ? Ifehe people had was, that the reasoning . of the Hon. Gendeneei found cause for exultation, they would have manifcs- corroborated by the decision of the House, leak ted it by manifold acts of that kind. (Cries of Hear ! extremely prejudicial to the public service. He sod hear ! ) This country had witnessed triumphs indeed to be of opinion that no service was entitled ton —the battle of Maida was a glorious triumph ! a fair Thanks of Parliament, except it was the caul; di trial of skill had been given them, and the flower and general and triumphant feeling, completely wird chosen part of the enemy's army, heretofore called i with any regret, and that there could be no mai " Invincible," when met man to man, were vanquish- under any circumstances, either in a retreat red& ed. This was a triumph indeed which was worthy of to entitle it to such an honour. He begged levee fifty navies of Denmark. ( Loud cries of hear! hear !) opposition to this doctrAdmirine, to remin Cord die s Hoe. On the subject of services , there were cert a in ways of able Gentleman, that al laid attaining rewards for meritorious cervices : one was the Thanks of the House for the judgment anal* * (and it reminded him of the old g amblin g s y stem at ver y which he displayed in presence of a superior cards—toss up, " King loses, Knave wins.") (A laugh) my's force, when no engagement, and conseeat where the good folks dealt out appro bation and re- no victory, took place. 'I he Thanks of the House , wards at Lloyd's Colfee House (A laugh !). On the also been voted to the Governors of Madras a" present occason, he believed that the Noble Lord's feel- Bombay, for their activity in forwarding diets _ rngs were more true than his judg ment. Ministers had of the Governor-General of Bengal. When 14',.; shewn gladness, but from his heart he wished it had 1 Hood took possession of Corsica, unaccompanied's' been a more sober, chastened, and subdued gladness ; i any of the circumstances which the Hon. Gentle"' that they had not exhibited that gladness in firing the • had contended were necessary to the esta Park guns. ( Loud cries of hear ! hear ! ) If the case, lof finch a claim, he had received the same gli a • when it came on for discussion, turned out to be one r approbation. The very circumstance of the which neither policy nor practice could justify ; why in question being painful to the feelings of those then, shat would the captors deserve, able as they ployed in k, he considered as an additional are ? Certainly not the thanks of Parliament. In- why it should not pass unrewarded, and if any . deed the Noble Lord was aware of the badness of his more than another could add to the merit of the cause, for after dilating at some length on it, he, in I cers employed in the expedition aga inst Cop , order to set it in a fairer point of view, brings in those I it was their having . obtain a cheap and Woo not at all concerned in the question. Whoever before • victory, in comparison of ed what it would haw , heard of complimenting the Victualling and Trans. had they battered and stormed the town, in e port Boards for doing their duty ? perhaps it might , case, perhaps, the Hon. Gentleman would hall! have been intended to include them in the Vote of nnobjections to their ' receiving the thanks of 1 11 ' til thanks. (A laugh.) The descr i pt ion of service as ment. It was idle to make a distinction bet ter applicable to them, u-as that of labour ;to be sure he success of the army and navy, in an expedloi. did not know whether the Commissioner s of the dock- which the y were conjointly employed . The ing 1. yards, and the Masters attendant , had been created the expedition to Egypt , t he navy did nothing e 1 Baronets for their e minent services. (A laugh.) Nor than cover the landing of the troops, they're:, had he heard what appendage the Noble Lords on that account, excepted from the vote tidos' di (Cathcart and Gambier) had affixed•to their titles.— ; He a g ain repeated, that the very circumstance...l, We all knew that the allaatg Nelson was designated ' ficers having a painful and heart-breakill; " Nelson of the Ni l e," hear! Duncan of• (Loud crier cf hear, from the OpposiMor _ ii Camperdown, &c." But here he believed there was peated it, a heart-breaking task to performon no honourable appendage. (A loud /tree) Had should like• to know what service in which mot et there been any granting of medals as in other in- bloodshed did not merit that appellation, sw g o t of file stances ? Had they been put with the other em- stron g est of all reasons • why the thanks . ice 1 blems of Victory into the military bed of honour ? ought not to be withheld. As to the set" In fact, the mere service (if service it was) on the he would always maintain,• that it had 17. part of the navy, was taking p ossession of the stores. essentially to the security of the countel, an . 1, —Th e re was entailer topic which would thew the diminution of that force , which would other % absurdity of Ministers more than any thing else.— t fore this time, id all probability , have beta They pretend to say , that .th e force the y sent was f power of our enemy. c i of a nature to render all resi s t ance unavailable.- 1 Mr. TIERNEY confessed it to be his. iaed , ni e,_, ;d Indeed, when we considered th e descri p tion of troops on, that this was an improper occasion t° inhoo s we had to contend with , this was to o true :—thsy a vote of thanks. Were our officers so e d were men with red coats and white coats, and some general, that they were to thanked for the iIL. with no coats at all — (A laugh) —•-sinne bad muskets , Ibe pity on this particular occasion ? It was I• ' i as but many more had pitch-forks. In short , n o B ri- that Ministers undertook this exPeditiGn '''''