Star. — London, England, 1831-10-08 00:00:00

w:t'u as inehisuiots population, but nobody to represent them." Then u to the duration of parliaments, while some said they ought not to last longer than three years, .4 Nn," exclaimed Swift, " I am for the old-fashioned liau:ent ; namely, those that last for a term not exceeding elle year." (Loud cheers.) Thus it appeared that noble 1 and ought to he cautious how they complained of the want f m:ck•nt ataluiritities to sanction the principles of this. Alt t. Next, it was declared, that their Lordships ought to ask. who, net the tntn originating this measure ? lie ad. to . - tt it Uds a good rale to ask the " Oho ?" and the '•a ha , ?" good, truly as applied to those who proposed tic 1-.11: at tl it was another good rule to ask oho and what were tto y who resisted the bill. (Much laughter.) Then thee nt:e attacked with allegories—he would not call them, : and he had thought the noble earl (Cernalvony would rerer quit the " ship," nor get to the end of his' ri)11114. from the want of 10.teerer. (A laugh ) But the noble earl did quit the ship. end was then for going to " dinner," and with the allegory about the dinner and the conks he entertained their lordships mightily. He compared the hill to a badly cooked dinner. and observed, that if they did not approve the dinner 01er migtit go into the klt.hen and conk for themselves (a Now, unfortunately for ‘.l‘. allegory, it war rot :he dinner that was complained of, hot the cooks. (Cheers ) cite rival conks complained— they who want to get into our kitchen," (exclaimed Lord Breti,tharn, in his peculiar manner and exe!arn +Aeon, that was followed with shouts of cheering, and roars et laughter.) The riesl cocks were at work. or rather wanted to be at work—they said, the Commons have prepared a dinner for vs, but we will not touch a dish of what they have sent us. (continued ltughter.) lie, however, ought to apologise for so long seating himself at the noble Earl's " dinner ;" he did so only becan.e when the allegory was served up, It pm duceel conaiderable effec - , if any inference were to be drawn from the cheering that it called forth. He had wished to 'chow who were the persons that wanted to get into the kit chen ; though what sort of cooks they would make when they got there, lie would not venture to imagine. He repeated, he admitted the right of noble kris to ask who were the persons who introduced this bill ; but were those who op pos• el the bill quite sure that they went persons who 'would tccommend that whirls was capable of satisfying a candid and reflecting people ? The question of Reform, u yet, had been wholly opposed by one. noble lord only, who was as sincere and single-heared as any man in the house. But as clatter of safety. was there not some danger from resistance to the whale bill ; was not that unqualified resistance preg nant with every species of mischief ? Were they not taking to the.nselves blind guides? Amongst the opponents, there was one noble F.irl (Winchilsea) who only a few months ago sot orteil the bill. (Hear.) The Earl of WINCHtLSEA loudly and distinctly ex claimed," No, no." (Loud cheers from the opposition.) - • • - - • - 'fee LORD CHANCELLOR.—Tben, if that be the cese—and as the noble earl denied it, he must believe him .- -but if the denial were correct, he (Lord B.) had been enamel 13: practised upon. He had an extract from a speech perperting to have been delivered at Mai !stone, on the 2eth of March List, by the Eal of Winchilsea. In that speech e noble earl was reported to have addressed the men ot Rent, in county meeting assembled at Maidstone, amongst tither matters on the subject of the Reform Bill. Having spoken of its merits and its necessity, the noble earl was re poted then to have declared, that " His Majesty's ..Bois. to-s, for what they have proposed, are entitled to the thanks and gratitude of the country." (Hear, hear.) " Earl Grey, (continued the repo . ' of the Ladd Winchilua's speech et Maidstone, in March Let) possesses political honesty not surpassed by that of any man, and leaves those who have abandoned their principles at an immeasurable distance." (!dear, hear.) ' Latl Grey is entitled to the eternal gratitude of his country." The noble earl was reported then to have proceeded to say—" Tne Reform hill has not yet been introduced"—(loud and exulting cheery trim the Oppesition)--" into the House 14' which I am a Member." (Great cheering and laughter from the Ministe red Benches.) Now, though the bill had not been formally introduced Into thee: lordships' house, it had been fully known in tae Commons, and discussed in papers, pamphlets, and books of all sorts, so that the noble lord knew its con tents, and was adequately prepared to express an opinion on it. Well, then, his lordship was reported to have added— " To this Referm Bill I am prepared to give my moat cor dial opposition." (Hear.) I beg pardon (continued Lord IL) I ought to have read, support. (Loud cheers, followed ey excessive laughter.) Then (Lord B. repeated) had trey not a right to ask, " who," and " what" they were who now opposed this Bill. (Loud cheers.) — Another noble lord, who spoke with his usual ability, said that baying regard to the present state of the country, look g before, around, and behind him, scanning the signs of the times, and among other things, looking to the desire and feelings of all your fellow-countrymen, the noble earl's wis dom ends in a recommendation that you should stop all proceedings on the question for two years, that the people might have time to consider the subject.—(A great laugh.) The noble earl appeared to have read in the noble duke's book—though the noble duke had cancelled the writing al most as soon as it was written. The noble duke said he Wish ed to bery the Catholic Question in oblivion, brae 'almost im. ▪ ediatelv after that declaration, he recommended it to paella. meet tot their adoption. (Blear.) That was only a wish pn the part of the noble duke, but the noble earl's tecominendation was practical wisdom. (Great laughter.) Another noble lord admitted that the people wanted some reform, but they did not watt this bill. It this was the case the g ood men who petioned their lordships certainly had a droll way of ex. preeeing their opinions (A great laugh.) They did not petition fur reform generally, but they petitioned for this bill. They did not want the bill, and yet from all pant o: - the country, and, thanks to the noble lord, of e e, u re a toe, (e laugh) all petitioned fur the bill.— The noble 1.e.1 said Bond-street did not want the bill ; instantly contra a petition from Bond-street. (A laugh.)— On ! sed tee noble lord, it was James's.street I tureen.-- (Glee: laughter.) Instantly comes a petition from James's street. ( [cud laughter.) Oh said tne noble lord, I saw a Wall in ltegene.street that was nut a teforiner. Regent. street instantly vindicates itself front the imputation, Will all its innabitants petition. (Loud and continued laugh er.) When the noble lord was driven front the land, it was in yam fur hint to seek for refuge on the water ; fur be (the Lord C;hancellur) had himself presented a petition for rehear from a ihousand ( Great laughter.) Even if the noble lord sought to escape amongst the hackney. catches, he would find they • were all occupied by reform. (Great laughter.) It tired of the town he betook himacit to the country ; at every inn_, every landlord, every waiter, be would fi nd a teformer. He might truly say which way I fly I meet reform—mystic . reform. (Long.continued laugh. ter) But after ail rue noble lord was trimeeli a wholesale ictuniter ; tor he had admitted that both Scotch and Lug. esti dens ended returns, and that it must be large and effic.rni ous ; and yet every argument he bad used had been as gooti *lgnited a moderate reform as against the present bill. (hirer, hear.) This led . him to the speech of the Honk earl, which it was said had not been answered. He thought his noble friend .had fully answered every pert of it that requited any answer. He should, however, answer those parts that hie noble friend had passed over. Anti, first, he would pay attention to the noble ewes recom mendation of calmness of judgment. You rash, inconstatent, W ven perate men, said the noble earl, you must look to this side ot the Siouse for calmness .0 judgment. (A laugh.) But what would the house think of the unbiassed celumess of lilst a de reasoner, whets not warped by groundless alarm, who actually heard one noble earl, at his own side of tit, horse, snake a „speech of an hour and a half, in reply to a member of the other house by name, heard his noble triend's former speeches alluded to, tieing his, present title, and his fume when in the ()thee bemire: eit Parliament, and was tin moved ; and yet last night interrupted a noble lord for nuking allusion to what took place in the last Parliament. Tito-, he thought, showed that all the inconsistency was not in the supporters of the bill. (Hear, hear, hear.) Otte argument of Ole Noble Earl began with the state of the berougn of liverton. The Noble tart gave, no doubt, a very correct and candid account of the connection of his fa truly and In eself with that borough, which, he said, was purely personal and had nothing to do with property. This etatemen. opened some suspicion, wuen he recollected that ever since the Noble Earl's ancestor, the Solicitor.lieaeral, became connected with the borough—the family were gene. tall : , perhaps midst/tally, in office—so that, if there was no ter:met:tem by property, there probably was what might be celled an official connection. (A great laugh.) And if Tie veaton.mea were found to be office bearers. that was so dis credit on them or on the noble hutted of Ryder ; but one of ten minuend instances is which the patronage of office was bartered for the elective franchise—a practice which the pree. sent bill would prevent. (Hear, hear, hear.) The Noble Earl sad the bill would shut the door of the House of Commons akietst me eldest sins of reers, and the noble Earl said me hest education Jar the performance of duty in that house, was an edmation in the House of Conamons, an opinion in which • fie perfectly areedi It t thiatßill would sot dose the dambsit would open It wider. (Hear, her. His noble triad, Me Secretary for the Colonies, in a •. • • d'stinguiahed for that ability and honesty by width his speeches are always distinguished, fully answered the noble earl, and named a dozen places with popular represeistatkat who returned the eldeelanotts of Peers. • (Hear, luar.)-..: lie would add one other instance. The eldest son of. i Nobleman—none of their Lordships, rich as they were M. those blessings, could find, a nobler in his quiver young Nobleman was keiriend of the Rill ; his were opposed to it. He haeletteen a Member of the tiesen , of Commons for the family borough ; but in consequence of his approval of the Bill, he was refused the seat he had formerly occupied. How was he to regain the station he had lost—how was he to finish his political edscelion P, Was it by buying a venal seat ? No ; be threw hintsolfon his country—he offered himself to the electors of a probes place ; the borough was Tiverton—the father who refused the representation to his son was the noble earl—the town to which be offered himself was Liverpool. [Lord Harrowby said he had not thrown his son out of the representation of Tiverton—he was 1,500 miles off when it happened—his son did not offer himself.] (Loud cries of hear.) The Lord Citancellor proceeded. He had the benefit of a House of Commons education, and the loudest cties of hear could not stop—they could only.delay him. What he said was, that the family of the noble Lord refused him the repre sentation of the borough ; but it made his case the stronger, because it was Tiverton that would not make their borough the litepping•stone. Lord Harrowby said he never offered himself.] He believed it. but it would take a great deal to convince It m that the noble lord resigned the seat he had filled without any difference with his family, or the borough of T.vertoo. The Noble Earl's next ground of objection was, that it was population and not property that was taken as the basis of the elective franchise. This, it was said, was a great change in the Constitution—an Inno. ration introduced for the first time, and one that threatened all the institutions of the country. If by the basis of re presentatianwas meant the selection of towns to send members to parliament—he admitted there was some ground for the objection ; but if it meant, not the ground on which boroughs were selected, but the qualification for voting, then he denied the conclusion. Would any one say, that population was the basis of a system on which County Members were elected on a freehold qualification, every man would laugh at the wild ness of the assertion i—populadon being the basis of repre sents ion, meant universal suffrage. No man in his senses could say that was the principle of the biU. (Hear, hear.) Property was the qualification of franchise under the bill.— In c‘ unties. property—freehold, copyhold, and leasehold— there was one description of voters—tenants at will—which he did not approve of ; but that fumed no part of the bill produced by ministers—it was added by its opponents, who beat its supporters on that point. He would now come to Cie borough representation. It was not true to state that opulation was the basis of representation there. The franchise was given to the occupiers of 101. houses. In Lon don and some few great towns, the occupation of a 101. house was but a low qualification ; but he could appeal to their lordships—who ought to know the fact—that in small thins the occupiers of 101. houses were in general persons in tolerably easy circumstances. It was found that in towns of 15,000 inhabitants, there were not 200 inhabitants of 201. houses. In some towns the occupiers of 101. houses were shopkeepers; in others they were the foremen of factories, or well employed workmen, and in general they were per. sons of some property. These occupiers were persons who had a house of their own—a family of their own, and were interested in the prosperity of the country. If the only ob jection was that the qualification was too low, or that it was too uniform, that it ought to be higher in large towns; he would not then say whether he agreed in that opinion or whe ther he could accept the bill with that alteration ; but who ever should hold that opinion would find him most anxious for inquiry in the Committee. He would emphatically say it was a subject for the Committee. ( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lords who had spoken against the Bill appeared to be peculiarly sensitive on the subject of property being a qualification for the elective franchise. By the bill popu lation was not taken as the basis of representation, but as a criterion thr giving representation to some towns, and ex chiding others; and this was done, because it was necessary to take some test, and population, in 99 cases out of 100, was the best. It was said that as the bill did not require a qualification of property in boroughs the franchise might be given to a town with a population of 4,000 paupers. Was ingenuity ever so taxed to make out an absurdity ? Why, if the inhabitants were all paupers, who would pay the poot-rate ? (A laugh.) If an extreme case was sup posed on one side, he also would propose an extreme cast. What would they think of a close borough, the property of some Jew or jobber or attorney ? What security could there be against an alien enemy ? It was known that the Nabob of Arcot had at one time twenty members in the House of Commons • and this was called English li berty and constitutional right. (Hear, hear.) While this liberty and right continued, who was to secure him against the Nabob of Arcot and his twenty members and bag of ru pees ? (Hear.) This was an extreme case, because it ac tually happened. (Hear.) This extraordinary sensitiveness on the subject of property might be very well with philoso phers of America, or the South Sea, who were occupied in forming new constitutions ; but that argument in the mouth of an anti-reformer, was a miracle of inconsistency.— (Loud cries of hear, hear.) Might not freemen be pau pers? were they not ? Whoever attended borough elections and did not hear the point mooted before the assessor, when the voter had received pariah relief ? (Hear, hear.) Was it not entirely a qaestion for the Committee P But to talk of property giving the right of voting at present, showed great inattention to facts. The right of voting in she boroughs of England was exercised by inhabitants pay ing scot and lot—by freemen who were mostly absentees, and by the holders of burgage tenures. This was said to be property, and so it was ; but it was in the patron of the borough--(Hear, hear.) The voter received his qualifica tion at two o'clock on the day of 'lactic°, and having nee cited his right by voting for the nominees of the patron, de livered it up to the agent at four o'clock.—(Hear). It was an abuse of terms to say that he had any property in the tenure ; but it was worse than an abuse of terms—it was an abuse of the constitution that allowed it to be said the patron had a property in the representation; it was an abuse the bill would no longer allow to exist. (Hear, hear.) Was it to be endured that some noble lord, or attorney, or jobber, by holding some old houses in a borough should give a title to others who had no property in the borough to re turn a representative, and that his right might become the property of the noble lord, or attorney, or jobber, by bar gain and sale—by loss at play—or the various miter ways in which such property changed hands; that by such a transibt the occupier became invested with the right of re. turning his servant out of livery to the Commons House of Parliament. If this was the noble lord's opinion of the Con stitution he had read it with different eyes, and he had with hi m ail the great names by whom it had been praised. in arguing in favour of a saleable peerage, before their lordships, he endeavoured to support his case by the instance of a saleable seat in the:liouse of Commons. It was argued against, his position, that the possessor of the peerage might be insolvent, that a tailor might purchase it, or become his assignee, and might, in consequence, take his seat in their lordship' house. He readily admitted that all this was a fit subject for legislation ; but as the law stood, there was an instance of a tailor who had bought a borough—probably taken it in payment of a bad debt from some of the members of the house of which it enabled him to become a mem ber. (Hear.) The tailor in right of his purchase sat in parliament, with a waiter at a tavern for his colleague, and by tight voting, became a baronet, and by a conti nuance of right voting, might, under the same system, have taken up bit rest, as many had done before by right vohng, tibia the walls of that House. • (Heat.) -• This right voting ths what the noble lord meant when be said, how can you mate your friends Peers without regard to their merits e The merit of service to the state—of senior in the army or navy, or the administration of justice, were admitted claims, and they made one Peer in a score ; but the political service in St. Stephen's—the battles without a scar—these made ten Peers for one. Considering the number of Peers made by Mr. Pitt, and the services by which they gained their ho nours, he was.surprised at the boldness of the noble lord when he aedressed himself to such a topic on such a subject. He would est ttem to advert to what frequently happens. The crown was not master of its own actions—the people were deprived of their rights, because the borough members mast follow the dictation of the.r patrons. And this was the case ever Since boroughs femme property. The objectors to the bill said, " 06, that excludes property—oh, this tends to representation." And why not ? The objection in all quarters bras—why this is rank representation—downright representation—nothing more nor less than the people choo sing their representatives. Unheard of novelty—monstrous inconsistency—detestable violation of rights. that the people should choose their representatives. (Hear.) The inlaid tant 'householders were the ancient electors of the land; and in a report of a committee of the House • of Coalitions in 1624, tue members of which were some of the greatest landuades of the law, amongst whoin were Coke, Asides, sad Noy. they resolved that, by emmtion right, all men, inhabitant bessebobiers within a borough, were the electors of the borough. (Hear.) What, then, became of the doctrine invented for that debate, that inhabitants were not entitled to vote, except in right of burgege tutor's. To) householders the right belonged, but it was not confined to, 101. householders; and if the Crown were to issue a writ to Manchester to elect representadves, there being no Prg the right, the w h o l e o f t h e i n habitant honseholdersmreit electors. So that while the bill was called revolutioary, it in feet limited the ancient sight of voting. (Hear.) He had heard a great deal during the debate of the inconvenience of the extension of this right of voting, and a noble friend laughed and sneered at the philo sophers and statesmen to be found amongst the large bodies of people who had petitioned that house. (Heat.) He thought his noble friend was ill advised in his sarcasm, that he did but little to lay in a stock of credit for his order, when he so treated the moderation and affectionate attach. ment to the constitution and the privileges of that house. The manufacturers of Birmingham and Manchester, though they might not express themselves In Latin or luminous verse—(he had been their representative in the House of Commons, and he would be their representative in that house)--and though in all matters of learning and of per sonal demeanour they must bow their little heads In the presence of his noble friend ; yet to say that in any case of important interest, of deep reflection, of manly feeling, flattery could not be so gross, and friend ship could not go so far, as to allow him to dream of putting Hs friend's opinion in competition with theirs.— The Noble Lord alluded to a public meeting at Glasgow, and quoted the words of one of the speakers who bad there addressed the people. lie said he was a mechanic, and con sequently one of those who were of the lower order, but not a word had escaped him against the higher classes; in that particular he had shown as much taste as if he had been educated within the wails of St. Stephen's. lie had said that it was not so much opposed by the Lords them selves as by others, wbo bad a more insidious interest in its repubion, bat these he could not name.—(A laugh.) Another remark of the Noble Lord was, that the Crown ad an undoubted right to appoint its own Ministers; and yet, if the present system of election was abrogated, it might happen that a man might be indispensible for the administration in a particular situation, and be would be kept out MI a general election. That might be true ; but it the choice was to be between the perpetuation et rottenness and coereption, and all the alleged ioconvenienes ' sf change, he would say shake off the rottenness.-( Hear.) ear.) But, of himself, be was not so hopeless as to say that that was the only alternative ; but if such were the case, he would elect between the two and take this measure. The noble earl (Grey) had stood in such a situation that had he not been impressed with sincerity alone, he might Dave made his peace so as to have secured his place with Whig and Tory--he had stood, as it were,between the living and the dead. He (Lord Brougham) knew that such had been the case, but besides he had been told so by the noble earl himself, and that was sufficient. Under these circum stances, he had the support of several noble lords who sat near him, and the noble earl ought to have had the support of others who had lent their weight in another way; and could they for a moment believe that even they (the Ministry) would, for love of popularity, suffer to be wrung from them the advantage of their support. There was never ammo who bad made fewer sacrifices to the mob than the individual who now addtesssed the House, or who cared less for the rabble. (Hear, hear.) But he felt that if there was a mob, there was also a people :—he spoke of the middle class—he spoke of the thousands, and tens of thousands of the middle class of estate—tie most numerous—they might talk of wealth, of intelligence, of property in the funds or any where else, but if all the property they could enumerate were put into the competition at fifty years' purchase, the middle class would kick the beam. He spoke of the people who were honest, wealthy, and intelligent, although perhaps they could not turn an epigram.—(a laugh)—and it they had not a voice or understanding it was an error on the safe side ; they had their natural feelings ; and they had feared as little turning of an epigram as they feared a cannon ball. (A laugh.) To that people it was necessary to apply for sup port—and to that people were they bound to listen—not for support for the saving this administration orthat administra. don ; because, if they were to be tickled by sound, or elec trified by glaze, the noble duke who had presided over the former atimistration, would have satisfied both. The late minister was the greatest Captain of the age, yet he found it impossible to carry on the government without the support of the people—the middle class—which was the link that connecteditheir lordships with the other classes, although they despised them= the mob. (Murmurs.) Aye, be would say despised, but not in the fullest and lowest sense of the phrase, he meant that they despised their threats. It was hen. possible that government could exist in this country without that support. The Noble Duke was abroad when the symp toms of dissatisfation were most evinced, end it might be pro. bable that he did imagine that the whole of England was slum bering, but he could assure him It was the slumbering of the mountains, exposed to every puff that blew; and yet when the late adranistradon found their weight ' they turned it to opposition, and tried their strength at the first, in opposing the measure for the timber duties, a measure which they themselves had concocted.—(Load cheering.) H. had said that his Noble Friend the Earl had been placed be tween the living and the dead; and be now might say, that those who supported him were of the living, and those who did not were of the dad; bat In this sense there were to be exceptions, for be entertained the highest opinion for many, who, he was prepared to antidpate,would vote against Ministers from a misunderstanding of the mea sure. The Noble Lord had said, that by the measure every member would be a mere delegate, end so might etch member be a delegate. But a man might as well be the delegate of one nominee, as a delegate of the people ; and so the question in that light rested between, whether a mem ber should be the delegate of the people or the delegate of a nominee, and whether the nominee should keep the people under a false and hypocritical pretence that they had rept,- sentation,when, in fact, they were without representation. But it had been said, that the plan of reform was to deprive them of any way to get into parliament by removing the dirty nasty ways to which it could be approached, and they bad been urged to leave undisturbed these bye-ways until some one borough had done some wrong. For hi .• he w.s free to acknowledge, that if these were no other way gain access, he would even submit to it, and encounter all the nastiness and dirtiness that Must be endured, if no other measure would avail ; but he would still find his way into the House to speak his mind and vindicate the wrongs of the peoyle • but he thought that this was a hard necessity. He was we ll convinced from his knowledge of law that there was a period when property was only preserved by strength, but Ins times had changed, and they were now accustomed to look at the right in property la a different light. In this consideration he would view the answer to the clam freers Birmingham and other large towns for representa tion: that they must wait till some borough had done so far wrong as to be deprived of their possession, then the forfeited right would be transferred to them. Supposing that he (Lord Brougham) had a right to ten etre' of land or a thousand pounds a year, and that it might be in the possession of a Mr. Thomson, or any one else, and that he went up to Mr. Thomson and asked for his right; that Mr. T. should address him, and acknow ledge his lordship's right to the property, but at the same time tell him that be must wait idle Mr. Johnston was con. vitt= of-some misdemeanour—pethaps stolen something— committed a felony, and hanged, and then he would get his, Johnston's property, Mate= if this property held by him, Thomsen. (A laugh.) Now, this was the serious state of lb question, and the relative *Readmit which these large places stood claiming reprises:Woe: ea; that head, he fervently hoped there need nothing mess be mid en that abject. pie of the bill was to get rid otborough i who have no in. principle of the bill was to get rid ot'boswugks who have no In. habitants,to get ride( representatives orbs bad nottonstituente. and to give representatives to large pleas that were without. The noble lord made a humorous illusion to a speech that had been made in the opposition, Which be aid bad even been cheered by them ; but be considered it to be fraught with frigid conceits, uttered with fifty exerchation, to be full of light matter with very heavy work. His no• friend (Rid Grey) hid read a lesson to them on the abject that was well worthy of the nineteenth century, in which there was rot one single word or s ntence which would not have been lauded had it been spoken by Bacon in the 17th century, and which he would have sanctioned. The noble lord coutended that the measure was not one of innovation_ but one of restoration. Tbe noble lord then addressed himself to the Archbishop of Canterbury, relating to ex pressions he had used on a homer meek% and said ha was duly impressed with the solemn aoWden, and be would take the whsle deb* finishing sentsoce, which was to restore that which had goes into decay. If it was said, that hither they should go and no farther, this the surge mast break over him, for he was determined to support that which wai falling, and to new= that width was to decay. He was desirous that the noble lords waultflisten to what he had now to say . ; he reminded them et the time when boroughs -win is the halt 01 'Nikita/hi M bo re. hived from the ex pen se if singing members to pediment, when member. in= pad for dadeldbouro, and to commit] that fact with the duke Is int loin a sinking parliament now, which seined in isinas aai w iw one. (Hear.) The relatives tharthe them MI and property had in eriessd; the interests had itillengtd,ned would sec that those wise new opposed the bill were the changers, and not those ;who proposed it. What was to be said of those boroughs where share in the representation was as little as that of their Wald's, and perhaps less than sonic of the noble lords that occupied the benches. (A laugh.) The noble lord described bow the feelings done borough,which be bad had the honour to represent, had been expressed, by, as he said, having been disappointed, from business, to have the booour of the chair. ing, but the person who had taken his place in the ceremony had received a serious contusion from a brick-bat. He could assure the house that no one ever owed more to a representa tive than he did to his on that occasion (a laugh.) The noble lord then went into an examination of the comparative claims of the present and late ministry, and remarked that the noble duke. in his political career, had always waited for fitting moments when his weight should tell, like Grouche, en a memorable occasion, he always had come in at the time just to turn the balance. He at great length dwelt upon the general defence, and the system bad worked well, and scouted that pretext for opposition, which he said only amounted to this, that it worked well for the borough pro. primers. He enumerated many things complained of, which might have been prevented by a reformed parliament. The slave trade and the French war, he said, would have been stopped in judicious time if his late right hon. friend (Mr. Fox we presume) had been supported by a kindred spirit which might have been met with in a reformed parliament. But was it, continued the noble and learned lord. a right and proper way to treat a parliamentary reform bill to refuse it berme receiving it in committee ? He begged to remind noble 1 oils that when the peerage bill, in Sir Robt. Walpole's time, was brought into their Lordships' House, ait'ough its in troduction was opposed, yet it was considered inCommittee, and in the end turned out by a majority of 120 'One it. He entreated of their Lordships to treat the Commons House with the 'same courtesy on the present occasion, whatever might be the result.—(Hear.) A Noble Bail intimately coo. nectedwith the county of Kent, had complained mach of the influence of the press in this great question. That the press leffeenced the public mind could not be denied, and if It went in opposition to public opinion it mold peen cease to exist. But how became the press so powerful ? The people found no representatives In the other House of Parliament. end had chosen the press as their organ of representation; so long, and just so long as the representatives in Parliamentwers not the representatives of the people, would the press main tain its sway. But to return to the bill itself, it had been characterized as radical and revolutiotory. What did noble lords say to the Duke of Bedford, the Duke of Devonshire, the Earl Marshal—(Order, order)—well he (the Lord Chan cellor) admitted he was out of order in making use of names . ; but noble lords around thought it quite legal to sae Chris tian names, there Fore he would say John Russell and George Cavendish, and others, who had so much Norman bloat, or whatever else made their lordships so proud—(laughter)-1 these distinguished individuals were all men of property. and yet they were for this revolutionary bilL (Hear, hear.) He put himself in the same vessel with noble lords, and on his beaded knees he implored them not to reject this bill. ...(Cheers.) The Earl of WINCHILSEA and the Dnke of RICH. MOND explained. Amidst loud cries of adjourn, Lord LYNDHURST presented himself in order to address the House. After having gained a hearing, the noble sod learned lord pro ceeded at great length to oppose the principles of the Bill as republican in their tendency. In the course of his remarks he made certain allusions to the petitions preaensed from Bond-street, and elsewhere, by a noble Baron (Holland,) stating it as his opinion that the noble baron could not be so little acquainted with the state of public feeling as to be lieve the sentiments expressed in them. The noble and learned lord also quoted a letter which had appeared in the public prints, purporting to be from the noble and learned on the Wedlock, in which that noble and Wined lord's opilions on the question of reform was of a different com plexion to those be now professed. The LORD CHANCELLOR interfered. The letter alluded to had been stolen from him, and he applied at the time for an injunction in the High Court of Chancery to prevent its publication. Lod LYNDHURST admitted that he should not have alluded to that letter had he been previously acquainted with the noble and learned lord's statement. Lord HOLLAND here presented himself, together with Lord TENTERDEN, amidst loud calls for both. For some time neither of the noble lords could obtain a hearing. The Lord Chancellor and Earl Grey rose repeatedly to order. In the end Lord Holland was heard in explanation. Lord HOLLAND said he rose to claim a moment's at tention in consequence of the sneers and sarcasm directed against him by a Noble and Learned Lord, because he had ventured to say that he believed the people were sincere in their petitions when they prayed for Reform, and said nothing of the ballot and universal sullage. If the Noble and Learned Lord derived any advantage from his sneers and sarcasm, in designating him innocent and sim ple (order, order!) He spoke to order. A crowd of Noble Lords rose en the other side. Lord KENYON spoke to order, and maintained Lord Lyndhurst had a right to speak to order when another Noble Lord who was speaking to order was himself disordely. Earl GREY said, that his noble friend was not speaking to order ; be bad not yet spoken on the bill, and bad there fore a full right to be heard. Lord HOLLAND then said he was not speaking to order. But as he was personally alluded to, he threw him self on the mercy of the house, and begged them to hear him for a few moments. (Hear, hear.) The noble and learned iced had taken occasion to make a remark respecting his having declared, in presenting petitions from the people for reform, when there was perfect silence as to the ballot, that he believed in their sincerity, and to ask was be so very simple and innocent as to believe this became they bad so ex pressed themselves ? If there be any great wit or advantage in this sarcasm, said his lordship, I leave the noble and learn. ed lord all the advantage. Bat I still confess I am sim. pie enough to believe the people, and I tell him I do so be. cause I am in the habit of speaking what I think myself, and nothing but what I think, and of believing that others speak what they think, and codling but what they think, unless .1 am so unfortunate as to be persuaded by facts and observations that what one says is not what he thinks—and that he does not say all that be thinks. I am still simple and foolish, and innocent enough to believe the posgb of England, and I hope the House will believe them try sad grant the prayer of their petition. Lord LYNDHURST was perfectly sure that its MI use alluded to the noble lord in anything except the most mew teous manner. If be was miseressod by the noble baron, be was sorry for it, and begged ce to assure him be ad not mean him any discourtesy or Lord TENTERDEN deleted his opposition to a mea sure of reform so sweeping as that proposed—and remarked that it had been observed the same arguments which were directed against this exclusive measure of Reform would equally apply to any other measure of moderate Reform.-- Now, be contended, that if the precedent were ems set, of altering the Constitution, the same arguments urged is fa vour of the change would apply to measures for utterly des troying all our institutiom. He declared that be paid the greatest *femme to the opinions of the middle classes, and entettaiSed the greatest affection, he might say, fee theni,as it was Veen them he sprung. The E'rehbishop of CANTERBURY mid; Myles*, I would have been glad to have arisen at an slam bear, and if I had succeeded in carrying my intentiominao fees, I weed have taken the liberty of mewing hi* a full account of the reasons which place me under .the Painful necessity of opposing a measure which has been s recommelded to us by his Majesty's Ministers, and has beer sent up to us by a majority of the oar Howes te s t having been disappointed in this wish, after splendid display of argument and which has been made by many Noble Leeds on le posits Beaches, I should be guilty of injustice to my. self and to your Lordships were I to trespass long upon you at this late hour. I shall therefore canine myself to a few words, which I certainly would not trouble you with, • if I did not feel it necessary to do justice to myself, by brieay giving my opinion upon the general subject of reform. And, my Lords, I must say that my augers madman lo our happy Constitntioc does not carry me so far asenisny that it has defects and anomalies; nor am I en -Nod is affection for thine asiphey are as to be beedis to sal ks. movement. My Lords, whatever abuses may. have crept into our Constitution by time or vicious promise, I denies to remedy by sow adt and osostitartissol swim To reform such abuse r bare ergot is Ismy visit ; and I have thir_boggidos of bards' that the whole Right Barred Bra assay is this aissistent. I bawd with groat sialbodos tho "rifts darer is rho course of thes lasts by soma Noble Lords, who have spin rM die hill, sad hue de. dared did their eppsldsab dime' ant ardent di= , dple of this bill, or rase the WNW Plorditis sad that they were ready ee anode le a asemde of radial, temperate, and sale reform. (Hear.) In the ese 111,- 11 cordially concur' and I cannot help hoping that a u 0 . 0% of men of all pa rties, having the same objects in vi namely, the good of the country, may take place, and 4, 8 ; they may prepare some measure so closely guarded as to e: move the apprehensions of those who fear for our institutive, and sufficiently extensive to satisfy all moderate men and friends of the Constitution, who admire it s excellence, 14:1 desire to repair its defects and remove its blemishes. lan perfectly aware that this may appear chimerical, and I that many and great difficulties would impede its eqmpk. don ; but in proportion to the difficulties would be the clan of those persons upon the gratitude of the country, who shied at the expence of the sacrifices it would require, conducta.. enterprise to a happy conclusion. I have only to add. th .• if It be your lordships' pleasure to pass the bill, I shall me.: seriously rejoice to find my apprehensions groundless ; if, on the contrary, your lordships should deem it nee:ll4% to throw the bill out ; and that popular violence —which I do not anticipate [hear. hear, hear !]—should result free this proceeding, I will cheerfully bear my share of the • meal calamity [cheers] : and I shall have the consel..e., for the few years or days I may have to live of reflect.% that I have not been actuated by sinister motives, but I opposed the bill fairly, and in perfect purity of heart, i., fleeing it to be mischievous in its teodercy and dangero t ie Me fabric of the Constitution. [the rev. prelate resumed f. seat amidst general cries of " hear, hear 11 The Duke of SUSSEX having been personally a11d.!..! to, begged to offer a few observations in answer to a !w;1. and Learned Baron, and a Noble Baron who had with great courtesy addressed him. I think (said the illus:re., Duke) that the Noble and Learned Lord, in statine the origin of the other House of Parliament, laid down his ie.,. position fairly ; but I differ with him in his conclu.io.., The House of Commons, I think, was raised up by th Crown, as a balance against the power of the Aristocrace but the power of the Crown has, for many reasons, been,. much less since that period, I impute no undue motive, to the Noble Lords who oppose this Bill. I certainly have party feelings, but those feelings do not prevent me from respecting those who differ from me. But, my Lords, whit is the nature of this Bill ? Your Lordships have received from the House of Commons a Bill, which they submit el your consideration. In favour of that bill Numberless peti. dons have been presented ; and I say, therefore, that the bill is in conformity with the opinions of the people. It has ban the fashion with some noble lords to treat the people with di,. respect. I cannot agree with the noble lords in that senti. ment. I know the people better than many of your lordship. do. My situation, my habits of life, my connection witn many charitable institutions, and other circumstances or which I do not now wish to enter minutely, give me the means of knowing them. I am in the habit of talking with them from the highest to the lowest. I believe they have confidence in me, and that they tell me their honest sentiments ; and mr firm conviction, arising from tee strong reeling which I hav, bead expressed on this subject, is, that it is absolutely neces sary that this bill should be adopted, to meet the improved condition of the people. My lords, I have visited kveral mechanic societies, both in London and at Nottingham, and elsewhere, and I can assure your lordships that many of them possess libraries equal to any nobleman's, replete with works calculated to instruct the mind and form the heart. Have they not as good judgment as I P And if they have, have they not a right to use it ? My lords, I value nobility ; but education ennobles a man mo:e than any thing els:.— Increasing in knowledge, and increasing in affluence, k it not fitting that the rights of the people should be extended Upon this subject I regret to be compelled to differ from the noble and learned lord opposite, who has stated that he him. self sprung from the common class—a circumstance which does that noble and learned lord honour, high as his clone. ter; deservedly stands in the country. Why, when thc people have so greatly increased in wealth and know. ledge, they should not have a greater share of the repre. sensation, lamat a loss to conceive. One part of the op position to the bill, it' I may use an expression not very courteous but rather strong, appears to me to be humbug. (A laugh.) I mean the alleged apprehension than the pro. ph of this country are disposed to take a leaf out of the French constitution. lam sure they are too good to do so. Tney wish the new measure to be constructed on the basis of our own constitution. They want renovation, not inno vation. How the boroughs of this country got into the hands of certain peers, Ido not pretend to say, but I say that they have no right to them. I certainly have less interest in the subject than some noble lords, having no pretensions to borough property ; still, however, I partici • pate in the odium under which the aristocracy labours in that respect. My lords, I was exceedingly surprised at the comparison which one noble lord made between the Peen of England and the Nobility of the ancient French regime. It is our duty, as the Aristocracy of England, to takecare that the rights at the people are not invaded, ski at the same time to guard the rights of the Crown. If. en. fortunately, the present bill should not be carried, I „trust that the people will see that there is much goodwill felt towards them, and that they will wait with patience until a similar measure be carried, which eventually it must be. To your lordships I will observe, that if this bill should not pass, some other bill must soon pass, and it may be one of a less favourable nature, and brought forward under less advantageous circumstances. My lords, I fees thoroughly convinced that my vote this night, both as I am a member of the Royal Family, and as I am a Peer of England, is of vital importance. The noble and learned lord opposite (for whom 1 have observed I entertain the greatest respect, and from whom I have received repeated proofs of courtesy) has stated his apprehension that the bill would subvert the Constitution and destray all the benefits of the revolution. My Lade, that I deny. One of the principles of the revolution .which placed the present family on the throne, was the es ta blishment of a free and full represents tioo of the people. On that principle I take my stand. I certainly lament that other individuals, with whom I am personally connected, do not agree with me • but I have no doubt of the purity of their motives. As for myself, 1 always was a Reformer, I am a Reformer, and I shall always be a Reformer untli this Bill, or some measure of equal efficiency, is passed. But at the same time, lam most anxious that the object of Reform should be obtained by constitutional means, and that no acts of violence should be re sorted to with a view to its attainment. If they should, I shall certainly feel it my duty warmly to support his Rs jesty's Government in repressing them. I trust, therefore, that if this bill should unfortunately be thrown out, the people, though firm, will be tranquil. If any outrage should ensue I shall be satisfied that it proceeds only from the populace, and not from the middle and re spectable classes. I hold in my hands a document which proves the little danger there is of any act on the part of the middle classes subversive of good order, sod of existing insteutions. It appears by that document that there are no fawn than 264,000 holders of stock in the Bank of England, whose dividends do not exceed 11001. a year The intelligence of the middle classes is proved, in addition to that which I have a l rea d y state d , b y the fact that 151,170 newspepers leave London for the country trill week. My Lords, under all these circumstances, I feel it my bounden duty to via for the mood reading of this bill ; and in taking that step, I conceive that lam doing the best for the benefit of the country (hear.) The Duke of GLOUCESTER said that be was friendly to Worm, and that had the bill been of a different character be would have voted for it ; but it was a bill, not for re =for the establishment of a new Coustitution. Being t he the clop of such a measure would be with and danger, ail that it would lad t il : l roverthrow of the State, he felt_lt his duty to vie spine the eseeatteesding.' The Marquess of HASTINGS, in a very low tone of mien. stated, se fez se we could Wiwi the Noble Lord's oliffioll. that bit believed the feeling of the people to be greatly in Lwout of the Bill, and that he should vete fee the second reading [hear how I] The Earl of HAREWOOD certainly believed that there was a strong sentiment in the ementry in favour of Reform ; and that Reform would be cemooded. But the question on which their Lordship weri sow called upon to decide was between Reform and this 111. He verily believed, that if the question 'of Relent had been conducted by his Majesty's- Government hi afitathee manner, and if it hid slot been accompanied by en many extraordinary e . e; tonal chasmstances, it wadi have born successful. n thematic that they had been math to blame in dissolving Pedfament • since they must have Mama that, although the elamesi; old* House of Commis might be Chang by. that ire, the opinions et the Hews of lords oeo by: the some. lie did net eilebbe eeissm seeematy to esw tatty existing nth. The smith et the 'seem was 6) ; him n.poof et the *ebbs male et the mat* Thn vas alto ea-Lwow et latettleage. He did yet wish that these te theell be lewd as an megenimmt for. o w ' 'abase. * lbierall that the toeithe setr il lad a Hide has him me doe bed been ararivi; asd **penal, might pet be Aided by eaymegottorf vt ititipage. rine *smile mud tact his ems o w ' verging and emitimeed lib& 44 Questlea r Led WEI Ahi mold set seeseeile it se his emssiege bate. to do wet need rep!! wen expe meat 1 life, occat siptet Refs But to cm (Lou condi Quci that, ipso 11 moth dss Mu Isamu t b t j %; 1 , tziesal Puret bifity and I cr vim nodal feet, vixen dike at * I