Star. — London, England, 1808-04-13 00:00:00

o f ack igmen sowlet and applause fiom the Go bop signeo (True copy.) ossoeut. " R. PARRY, 4g Secretary to Military Department." MBLI,IMEATARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 12. C.LERIE was aga in heard at the Bar as Counsel for the in t h e Roxburgh Peerage Cause, and another hearing Led for to-morrow. •"' o r d e rs in Council Indemnity Bill was committesl, and the o rdered to be received to-morrow. lielrish Cotton and Bark Bills were read a third time. H o we went into a Contmittee on the Scots Judicature Bill, 110 o ohs Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. INDICTMENT BILL. Eul STANHOPE called the attention of the nose to this Bill , which he said purpo ► rted to be a to amend the law, but which, in his opinion, ten ja t o make it worse. He thought that part of the Bill ii eet i e nlar which related to proceedings on infor ostson highly objectionable. His Lordship said, he 4111 a an to debatee Bill now ; his object was, day should be fed for the second reading. iiiikat it should be fully discussed. He therefore 0 04 that the Bill be read a second time on the opt May, and that the Lords be summoned. /01 HOLLAND thanked his Noble Friend for k W* this subject forward; and although the part "4101111 alluded to by his Noble Friend might not be a way that on which he should found his objections, he ye mus t nay, without now entering tow. the At e, that this Bill was a great innovation upon the constitution; and he trusted, that when the day of discussion arrived, those who supported the billwould be prepared to state to the House . the reasons on which it was founded. The Bill was ordered to be read a second time on the 1 6 t h o f May, and the Lords to be summoned. CATHOLIC PETITION. The Duke of CUMBERLAND rose and observed that he considered it his duty to lay before the House a p et ition in his possession, from the Mayor and Cer region of Dublin, against the Catholic Petition pre sented ge the preceding day. Lord AUCKLAND intimated, that he was not in the House when the Catholic Petition was presented, or he should have objected to bringing it forward. — The question had been amply discussed upon a recent occasion, and he conceived it to be improperly brought before the House at the present time. Lord HOLLAND said, when the Petition be. doe the subject of discussion, two years since, the emus question had been moved, and it was not as taken into consideration, but it was understood Olt the decision did not prevent future discussion — k therefore considered that his Noble Friend hail in- ' troduced it in a regular way. Lord HAW KES BURY corrected the Noble Lord's statement relative to the former proceeding on the Petition, and called to his recollection, that the dis anion was on the House resolving itself into a Com- ice. Aker a few words in reply from Lord Holland, the petition was ordered to be laid on the table. REVERSION BILL. On the first reading of the Reversion Bill, brought sp by several Members from the Commons, Earl DARNLEY moved, •preparatory to the dis cussion on the second reading, for accounts of all Places in Reversion granteil in Ireland. The Earl of LAUDERDALE proposed as an amendment to the Noble Lord's motion, that the ac count should extend to all Reversionary Grants in England, Scotland, and Ireland, which was adopted and agreed to. Lord MOI RA said, the Bill had not been gene rally understood by the public. He did not intend to make any motion upon the subject, but suggested the propriety of conferring with the Commons, to ac• quaint them of the objections against it entertained by the Lords. Earl GROSVENOR expressed an intention to deliver his sentiments on the Bill in a future stage ; and asked the Noble Lords on the other side of the House, when the second reading would take place. Lord HAWKESBURY, after a few observations, appointed the second reading for the 9th of May next. The Bill was then read the first time. Adjourned till to-morrow. LICENCE. Rouse, April 11, ism this house on Sat ßight Hon. the Co.o lengal, stating, that, r and rebellious con. indar and farmer of ar, in the conquered d the most lawless zbitants of the village :sisting the legal au . rate of that district, ing payment of lar ge .ts due from hint to indispensibly ne ees . adopted for the r e _ Doondea Khan, and on, in order that the t be fully established yghur, that the pub. and that Doonde s it be brought to trial Jurisdiction, for the barged, these important °la nce to Commona, the dea Khan, in support md to proceed to the ndea Khan, and the tld he refuse to corn. rich' the Judge and :e to him. ily refused to comply him, but having like nt of his ability, mea.. yrce sent against him, a considerable force of the King's and nd encamped before ''4th of October last. Commona appears eld out little hopes of and to have induced slower, but more cer aches • this mode o f ly tedious, from the ry around Commona and from the of miners in the sen d zeal of the Officers lantry of the troops, toles opposed to them, :o be practicable, the and on the fortified le time, on the even. toyed on this occasion iccess to which their dous perseverance so )erate struggle, which officers and men, they om the fort and gar. er, made on the tate he troops on this oc. he evacuation of both to night, which were gda y. General Order which receipt ;of the intelli as also returns of the :rations before, and in a separate list of the ASSAULT OF THE FORT A. :aptains, 4' Lieutenants, 1 id Tlnctab, 6 Scrjeants and 'ants, i Ensign., 9 Jemidars 1, 459 Privates.—Told, 516. ED AND WOUNDED. nt-Colonal lat Battalion, 9tb Fraser, Brigade Major is ng Brigadier• Major Lieute m, 9th Regiment, wounded Radcliffe and 'Mirk ; ipbell, and lludingstone, son wounded dangerously. mum, Llst Regiment Ns- Levingstone, List Regiment r, 11th Regiment Native lie Captain S. Brown and Lin hews and Fraser, woundei )usly. Irooke, wounded slightly. , Captain. Perkins and Lam rer e ly ; Lienunant Corbet Lieutenant M'Leod killed; y ; Lieutenant Denty sligh► Ensign Fordyce woundei )unded severely; Lieutenant may • severely. rps.—Lieutenant Defue, Ist ; Lieutenant Wilkie, let bn severely. al wounded. have died of his womb. FLDERS Cennagt. in Coun t William, Nov. 30, lOW. vernor General in Com y which is highly grati c expression to the deep :inguished bravery, dit splayecl by that part Of ,efore Commons, during rations against that fort. ssault which took place feels . a perfect assurance =foreseen obstacles op• have been overcome by alities of a soldier, the hat occasion would ha" • n, however, made by it just apprehension whick it such perseverinii pl. ne, would prove Mal ;ouncil confidently attn• urt, and fortified garde!' Df the same night. It a .ordship in Council finds the loss of so many Iv have falleg in the many called for this just al. than to send it back to Ireland to obtain new and re gular signatures. Mr. PARNELL said, there could be no doubt that the Petition was signed by the principal Catho lic Nobility and Clergy in Ireland. He thought this quite a sufficient reason for its being brought up. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER deprecated the idea of his being thought hostile to' , the reception of the petition, though it did not ap pear to him that it could be received in its present shape consistently with the forms of the House.— Frem the great bulk of the Petition, it might be sup posed that considerable weight was attached to the number of the subscribers, and therefore it was of importance that these should be correctly and regu larly given. His chief objection to receiving the pe tition in its present shape was on the ground of pre cedent, and as tending to introduce a practice by which false signatures might be imposed upon the House, though he was far from wishing even to in sinuate that any thing of the kind ha d been practised on the present occasion. He wished, however, to defer on the point of form to the Speaker, and should abide by his decision. The SPEAKER gave it as his opinion, that it was quite clear that no petition could be received by the House, unless really subscribed by those persons whose names were attached. It might be, however, necessary for any Honourable Member who present ed such a petition, to consider whether the real sig natures could be detached from those of a different description, Or those last might be cancelled altoge ther, though, for obvious reasons, he should prefer the former of these two modes. Mr. TIER/4EY spoke shortly for receiving the pe tition in its present form, on the ground that it might be considered as a good petition, as far as it had a number of real signatures attached to it. There could not, besides, be the least doubt that it expres sed the opinions and wishes of the majority of the people of Ireland. Mr. M. FITZGERALD mid he understood that there were at least 17,000 names attached to this Pe tition, and among these, some thousands of actual signatures. The form might not be perfec t ly regu lar, but it seould be hard to refuse it on that account, particularly since it might easily be conceived, that into the most regular petition a name might be frau dulently and clandestinely introduced, and it would be hard indeed if this should vitiate the whole of the Petition. He deprecated the idea of sending back the Petition to Ireland, where those who subscribed it could not be supposed to be acquainted with the forms of the House, and where the not receiving of it might be construed into a disposition to refuse to listen to their prayers. He hived therefore, that, for the sake of tranquillity, the slight irregularity would be overlooked. He understood that other Petitions would soon be presented from Ireland for a similar object, and alluded to one from the North of Ireland, subscribed by at least 30,000 persons. Sir R. PEELE thought that the forms of the House should be adhered to. A Petition for Peace was lately presented from Manchester, said to be subscri bed by 40,000 people, and be was informed that there were not more than 1500 real names. He objected to the precedent, therefore, as liable to produce mis chievous consequences. Sir S. NEWPORT coniidereZ it far from be . - fair or conciliatory, to insinuate that the present pets tion was of the kind which the Hon. Baronet had de scribed that from Manchester to be. Mr. GRATTAN deprecated the inhospitable re ception which the petition seemed likely to meet with. If the forms of the House were strictly adhered to, no Member who presented a petition could vouch for its perfect authenticity, if any doubts were started on the subject. He submitted to the House that they should not be too critical with regard to a peti tion of this sort . After a few words from Mr. Wilberforce in support of the forms of the House, and from the Speaker, who again stated his opinion on the subject, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expressed a strong wish that the Right Honourable Gentleman would be prevailed upon to withdraw the Petition for the present, otherwise he should be under the painful necessity of voting against its reception. It must be understood on all hands, that the matter of the Petition could derive no weight from the num ber of the names attached to it ; and, supposing there were only fifty signatures, it would equally deserve HOUSE OF COMMONS. the grave and serious consideration of the House. — Mr s Aklerman SHAW pres ented a Petition from the Debtors He could wish, therefore, that the Petition were with thek IA the Fleet Prison, praying relict:—Ordered to he on Table. • drawn for the present, and in 24 , hours it might be CATHOLIC PETITION. presented in a regular and authentic shape. Mr. GRATTAN said, that he held in his hand a - Mr. YORKE suggested, that the Petition mighi redder, signed by a very great body of Roman Ca- be received, and theta spectal entry might be made in dishes in Ireland, praying for the removal of the dis- the Journals of the House, with a reservation of the abilities under which they laboured, and that they formal rules of the House. might be admitted to all the privileges of the British Mrs CANNING was anxious that some way should Constitution. He would not at present enter into the be found out for removing the difficulty under which merits of the prayer of their Petition, since that would the House laboured at present. This difficulty arose be a subject for future consideration, but should con- from the precedent, for whatever indulgence might tent himself with moving . that the Petition be now be shown in the present instance, might be expected, received, He wished to give notice, however, at pre- and demanded in future. He was far from thinking sent, that he should move for its being taken in to con- that the importance of any Petition, or the dignity and sideration on the 16th of May next. The Pet ition was number of those who subscribed it, should affect the signed by a v er y peas number of persons, and many rules of the House, and be should feel more disposed of them of high respectability • but it was necessary to relax those rules, when the Petition came f r om a for him in fairness to acquaint the House, that a num. small and unimportant body, that it might be obvious bet of signatures were affixed which were not written that the departure could only be ascribed to indulgence, by the persons whose names they bore, but which had and to no other motive. The Right Honourable been -written by others in consequence of authority to Gentleman could not suppose, that, by detaching any that effect. of the names from the Petition, he also detached some The question that the Petition be now brought up of its claims to the grave and serious consideration being put— of the House. The Petition, though diminished in The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said bulk, could not be diminished in importance. he would be glad to know from the Right Honours.. Mn. GRATTAN said, that as the great objeet of ble Gentleman the proportion of those woo really sub. the Petition was to, promote the cordial unanimity of scribed the Petition. the country, he should not press it upon the House in Mr. GRATTAN replied, that he was not able to its present form, thus malting their unanimity, and state the numbers with accuracy ; but he believed probably bringing upon the House the odium of re there might be some thousands. jesting it. He could not engage to present it again The SPEAKER observed, that in point of form it till after the Recess, as it might be necessary for him might be necessary that there should be some means to have communications with Ireland on the subject, of discrimination between those who had duly signed there being very few of these who subscribed the Pe the Petition, and those who had only authorized others tition at present in London. to edd their names. Af ter few words from Mr. Whitbread, Lord Mr. GRATTAN confessed that he was unable to Castlereagh, and Mr. W, Smith, tbe motion for point out the distinction ; and he had merely men- presenting the Petition was withdrawn. tioned the circumstance to the House, to remove from Dole= OW THE coUNTRY. himself the imputation of any unfairness, or want of Lord CASTLEREAGH began by observing, that candour. But though the form - ale Petition, he he bed occasion last year to draw the etteation of the was aware, was not perfectly regular, yet heitions, thought *lease to the nature of . the lewterial IXesice of the it better to present it to the House in its present shape Courstry. He had then stated t lie sentinsents gees - - , . .7 rally, both as to the best *ode of ke ss'n3 up the they should be drilled 28 days in the reighbourhocd Regular Army and Militia, and also for supplying of their own homes. He concsived that men who that subsidiary force which would be wanting to co• were disciplined in that manner might be usetally operate with our snore regular description of force. , incorporated with the Regular Army in the eveet Taking the military system of the country as ha found i of invasion ; whereas the men who, by the Train it, at the time of his coming into office, he'tbanghe ; iag Bill, were to be trained for one year by Con that what related to the subsidiary force was too corn. l stables and Parish Officers, would be of little or no use. plicated for the Gentlemen of the country to be able ; As. to the Volunteers, he must .declare that, in his easily to carry into execution. Without, howevqr,l opinion, and in the opinion of his Majesty's Mini attempting at once to determine on every part of so : stets, as long as they could make it convenient lo comprehensive a system, his Majesty's present Mi. - give their services with efiiciency, there was no cis - nisters turned their * earliest attention to that part of , scription of subsidiary ferce the - the existing force which was of the greatest impor- couldpla ce greater reliance. tance, the Regulars and the Militia . The results of any g off in their number, their measures with respect to these two descriptions i that the deficiency should be s 'of force had been so very successful, that the Legis.l of view he considered the \ lature was relieved, for the present, from the necessity I Lida as extremely important. of making any further provisions on those heads. The ' great variety of opinions as to measures which were taken last year had added no force which it would be s less than 40,000 men to our regular and militia force; existence; but when the and both these descriptions of force might now be was considered, and Ihe fairly left to the operation of th e existin g s y stem, to country, he 'thought the ropertion p the ordinary recruiting and the hallot.—He came his Right t he nd (Mr, next to a subject of no less iinportance, namely, the the number of Militia, , sort of subsidiary force that would be necessary to order to haye this proportion. - co-operate with the Regulars and Militia. Although force, there should be 3:30,00 0 .V he had the highest opinion of the Volunteers' 'and Britain, as there were 70,000 : thought that the greatest dependence might be Placed number were complete, there could - on their zeal and spirit, yet he did not know what that, co.operating with the 200,000 Regulars or Mi was their number er efficiency, until he had seen the lititt, reinforced by 50000 from the Local Militia, late returns. The appointment of the Inspecting there would be sufficiese force to defend the country Field Officers had given Government better means of against ;ay possiblesattaeles s The actual number c f judging of the efficiency of the Volunteer force, and theVoltuiteers reunited foraGreatitritain was 290,00( their actual numbers. He must allow that no country as of that number 20000 had appeared wider had ever re a snore effectual service from the at the last inspection—the total defalcation of Vo l i r r. establishment of any description of force than this teere might be stated* between ao and 40,000 men. country had derived from the Volunteers. There was As, however, the counties on the coast raised more no kind of subsidiary force to which he would be more than their proportion of six times thenumber of Militia, inclined to trust the fortune and fate of his country ; so the deficiency became more . considerable in other and the country was not only indebted tq them for places. He should theirefbee propose, that the Crown coming forward• at a moment of danger, but for might be enabled to raise 00,000 local Militia, to be their continued and unremitting exertions eversince ; Proportioned in every county •to the defalcation of the for the Volunteer Force of the Country never stood Voltinteers, from the number which was first struck higher in numbers or efficiency than at the present out, of six times the amount cf the Militia. He should moment. It must be recollected, however, that when now proceed to give an outline of his idea of a local peace should arrive (and it was necessary, in the pre- Militia. He thought that it was right to' depart as sent situation of the world, to be prepared in peace as little.as possible from the usages ands blished habits well as in war) then perhaps those exertions might of the country. The Militia systwas now en. somewhat relax. It was somewhat da n g erous to trust grafted in the habits of the cou nt e r, and he wished y zeal.. This would to assimilate this subsidiary force to the p rinci p les of entirely to the effect of voinntne be like looking merely to the s ys tem i of-she moment, the Militia. The great difference would be this— without constructing our military ys on s plisso.a during war, the Militia regiments have the same duties neat and stable principles, which would be equally atrithsthe Regulars as to the defence of the cou=y , - ; applicable to a state of peace or war. In fact, it was whereas he 4sould wish to assimilate the local 11We tia during the continuance of war, that the military sys. to the condition of the regular Militia in time of tern of the country should be so organized, as to gua- peace ; and unless in the case of actual invasion, they rantee our security in a state of peace as well as of war. were not to quit their counties: He should nest con. In a peace, those military discussions which were now Sider what class of people were to compose this Mi. allowed to be necessary, might be considered as irri- litia. He considered that the service proposed was so sating to those with whom we were at peace, and as light thet no one could complain of it as a burden. indicating an hostile disposition. It was, however, He was convinced, that if it had been proposed to the so necessary that we should consult for our safety in Volunteers in the fi rst instance to give some serious peace, that when we looked at the actual situation of pledge to their country of their iuteation to give their Europe, we would perceive that the only chance we services fora certain time, and to go' out on pertna could have of meeting the enemy upon fair ground, neat duty once in the year, mast of the Volunteer even in a negotiation for peaie would be to have a aorps would have agreed to it. This would have military sytem so well organized, as to convince him been no burdensome duty, especially when it was re that lie could not hope to be able to do us any serious collected that they came forward in defence of their injury, either in peace or in war. Under these car - country, and of every thing which was dear to them. curnstances, heithought it became the duty of Par. He, therefore, could not consider the sort of service liament to lay down settle • permanent foundations which would be assigned to this local Militia as lay for the defence and security of the country . ; to hardship. On that account he did not think the same adopt such fixed and stelae principles for our mi. relaxations of this system should be allowed as what litary system, as would not leave the country trust. took place in the regular Militia. In the first place, he ing to the mere chance of voluntary zeal in the hour did not think k necessary in this local Militia to allow of - danger. He thought it was time that ants the privilege of serving by substitute. This was neces blished system should now be introduced, so tha the sary in the common Militia, as the person serving was security of the country should never be compromised. generally obliged to give up his former occupetion or By the military system, as his Majesty's present Mi. employment , but it was not necessary in the local nisters found it at their coming into office there bad Militia; where every man would be trained almost at been an Act passed for training the of fice, popula- his own door, and would be an permanent duty only tion of the country to arms, by training 200,000 each in his own county, and for a limited term. If substis year. This Act, however, was not mandatory, but tutes were allowed in this local militia it would go di. merely an enabling statute to allow the Executive to reedy to impose a heavy tax : men would magnify call out such a portion of the population, if it should the importance of the duties of the service, and would' judge it adviseable. Although the Bill had been give large sums to substitutes. Instead of allowing a passed for some time, there had been vfry little done substitution, he should propose as a relaxation ! that in order to carry it into execution. His Majesty's fines should be imposed upon persons that could not, present Ministers did not conceive it necessary to ad- attend, and that those fi nes should be so serious, as tie vise his Majesty to call out so large an additional sub- prevent any person from absentinghiniself that was not sidiary, force as 200,000 men in the present year.— prevented by very serious business. He Should propose They, however, hoped to be able to point out a way to make it penal for any parish to offer, ounties for sub which would render what were raised more efficacious sutures, or for any individual to offer himself for a than those men would be, raised and drilled by the pa- bounty. It would be also necessary to prevent insuring. rish of fi cers and constables under the provisions of the —As to the probability of getting the men, he should Training Act. That Bill they thought was much top not think it di ffi cult, when the easy nature of the ser. complicated in its nature, and he did not conceive; vice was ' considered. He should, however, propose that it would be by any means so e ffi cacious as the 1 some small bounty, not exceeding two or three guineas, Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Windham) who j to the person who enlisted into the service for four years. proposed it, seemed .to imagine. By the time you iln this service, he thought men should not be taken, as had balloted for your man, found him, and brought ; much advanced in life as it was customary to ballot him to the place of training, a great part of the y ear -. for them in the regular militia. Instead of from 1$ to would have elapsed, and he would be entitled to his 45,he thought it would begoing far enough to say from discharge at the end of the year, when it was pos 15 to 95. It was well known, that when a man was sible for him to have learnt enough of military disci - , somewhat advanced in life, he could not learn military pline to be of any use. Whatever some Gentlemen i manoeuvres with equal facility. It would be next to might think of an armed peasantry, he never thought ;be considered, how these men were to be o ffi cered. He Much use 'could be made of them, unless before the I did not see any. reason to telex from the qualification enemy should arrive, there were regiments enough , required by law in other O ffi cers of Militia, as he was for them to join, whether Regulars, Militia, o e 1 , convinced that many of the resident proprietors would Volunteers. A number of men tolerably acquainted ibe glad t. become O ffi cers in such a service as this, with the use of arms, and thrown into existing regt. ' when there would be no occasion ,for them to leave merits, would be of much greater use than a greater their county. He would wish,however, that any number of unregimented persons, with the very loose person who had been a Field Officer in the Army, and irregular training proposed in that Bill. He l and afterwards retired, might be-a Field Officer also conceived the greatobject for training the people would t this Local Militia, whether he had the quelification be to fi ll up the vacancies in the Regular and Militia in point of property or not. This force, however regiments immediately on the landing of an enemy. I should not be permitted to be an obstacle either to the Our Regular and Militia Force now amounted to I ordinary recruiting of the Army, or to the Militia : 200,000 men rank and file ; and if each company was I and therefore be should propose that persons should raised to 100 men, we might have 250,000 in our ,be permitted to volunteer from it either to the Rt. regimented force, which, with the addition of the Vo- gulars or the Militia, except at the periods of the year hmteers, amounting to near 400,000, must be rec. when the Local Militia should be on permanent duty, koned sufficient to defend the country against any ,He had a great ho many pe that of t he Volunteer corps force which the enemy could accumulate a g ainst us. wou be willing to transfer their services, and to be. He did not pledge the G overnment to ballot for the come local Militia. There would be this advantage men who were to fill up the ranks of the army in case attending such a change, that there would no longer Of invasion, as he thought it was the duty of Govern- be any occasion for a stock purse ; but the expences molt not to afflict the country with unnecessary bal. of the establishment would be borne by the public. Iner t • He was conviriceel• that if a subsidiary force This would be a great advantage to many of the was raised, in the nature of a local Militia, they might corps, who commenced on a very, extravagant scale. be soon put in that state pf discipline as to be an ae-1 which Would be done away completely by entering quisition, instead of incumbrance to do regiments of into the local Militia. According to hie. calculation, Regulars or Militia. He should wi s h that t he Crown this local Militia would not cost our.* than the Vo, should be enabled to embody this local *Via*" 21 Itutteers, or . as much as the trained mei. If si s a i days in lie Ye% within tbair ali4 efinottp 04 *2 we " 21195 14 mak, a milliar roTtat9a tat keep up. , • . . . , , • .., , . ' . Force la which the country knee; but if there should Le umber, it became necessary I be supplied, and b‘ that point "l i\\ esta blishment of a ()cal Mi- ant. There was nec rily a ksto the quantumof s 'diary necess ary to have al sin ..t whole amount of our rce ke great demands upon ($ ie propurtion first adopted I (Mr. Yorke) of six tim e it a, was. fully sufficient. In poraon.froin the Volunteer 30,000. Volunteers for Great 'O,OOO far Ireland—and if this there coed be no doubt but