Star. — London, England, 1821-07-04 00:00:00

purpose of carrying• the laws of the land intoeffect— (Hear, hear).—He did not mean to say that the Law I Officers of the Crown had not performed their duty, but he confessed he could not think that lenity praise- ' worthy which spared to a certain extent an indivi dual (Carlile) now suffering under the sentence of the law for a libel teeming with the most horrid blasphemies. He had sesircely been confined two days when, as if he had never been prosecuted, he sent out from his prison another libel, recommending assassination, and equally blasphemous as the other. He did not say that pen, ink, and paper ought not to be allowed him ; but he must say, that if an indi vidual were to go into prison only to commit again the same crimes which he had already perpetrated, the law was of no use as to its main object, which was the prevention of crimes—(ffear, hear).--While the present licentiousness of the Press prevailed, he hoped the Coastituttonal Association would proceed fear lessly against its abuses—that they would not be in duced to prosecute any libel merely from party or -,:ersoitai politics, but that they would direct their aim against calumny and detraction whenever they rose to a height that made them the fit objects of public notice—(/tear, hear).—ln pursuing this course, they should prosecute all offenders impartially— whether "John Bull," or by whatever title they were designated—( Cheers).—lie was sure that they (the Members of Outhouse) were proceeding in the right Course when they enforced the law against vice and crime on the one hand, and were educating the People on the other—( Hear, hear). Mr. DENMAN said, it was satisfactory to him to find that his honourable Friend who had just sat down had principally applied his observations to a Society which was only incidentally brought. into discussion—the Society for the Suppression of ViCe. He remembered with pleasure that, on a former oc casion, his Honourable friend had opposed the em ployment of spies and informers for the discovery of crimes, and it was upon that principe that his Ho nourable and Learned Friend 11/..Lushington)chiefly i attacked the Society now before the House. There was lately an instance of the employment of an in dividual in this way, and no doubt could be felt that such a race of men would tend to create eritnes themselves, as it was by discovering crimes that they I earned their livelihood. A Society of this kind was thus distinguished from all others, and when he heard i the flieht Honourable Gentleman opposite stand for ward in defence of it, be telt the greatest surprise— he should rather say indignation—at hearing him put it on a level with other Societies existing in the I country. The Society for Prosecuting Felonies arose from a natural desire to preserve property; the crime I was one of which there could he no doubt; the pro- secuton of it did not tend, like the prosecution of political libels, to raise a man to the favour of men in power—(H ear, hear). He had not the least hesi tation in sav ng, that the proceedings of this Asso ciation we'. illegal, and subjected them to prosecu tion. In one instance they compelled a man to give up his whole stock, to make oath that he would sell no more numbers of a pamphlet which he had on sale, and they threatened him with an aggravated proceeding in the Court of King's Bench if he de parted from these stipulations—(hkar, hear, hear). In another instance, where a person published an Address to Sir Francis Burdett, they compelled him to pay them a sum of £BO. The House would see to what proceedings of this kind might lead—(Hear). He then alluded to the Prospectus of the Associa tion, in which they declared that one of their objects was the encouragement " of persons of integrity and talent in the literary world, to exert their abilities in confuting the sophistries, dissipating the illusions, and erlosing the falsehoods, whichate employed by wicked and designing men to mislead the people."— Now he, for one, must say, that lie had not as yet heard of any one production fmm the pen of any of the members of this Society, except an indictment. It was also a very objectionable thing, that several hundred pounds were placed opposite fictitious sig natures in the list of subscribers. He did not know whether Ogles, the Misses, £'2," was fictitious or not—(A laugh)—but it was manifest that these were alarming posers vested in this Society, which were of so doubtful .t character as to their legality, that various Bills which they had presented to Grand Ju ries were thrown out. If a counter-association were established, how would it be possible to find an un biassed Grand Jury ? This of itself was such an im portant inconvenience resulting from this Society, that it was sufficient, in his opinion, to induce Go .vernment to discourage it altogether. On these grounds, if his Honourable Friend pressed the mo tion to a divisi.an he would certainly vote for it. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought it rather an extraordinary mode of proceeding on the part of the Hon. Member who brought forward this Motion, that, without any previous Resolution asserting the Illegality of this Association being sanctioned by the House, he should at once call upon the Howe to ad dress the Crown to direct a noli prosequi to be entered in all the prosecutions that have been hitherto instituted by this Society. He could not help observ- jug, that if that Society was illegally constituted, the Courts of Law were open to try the question—(Hear, &ear)—and if the Hon. Gentleman opposite felt so strongly upon the case, why was no question brought as yet before the Courts of Law, that the matter might be decided ? It had also been said, that the Society for the Suppression of Vice was an illegal Society ; and yet that Society had now existed for several years, and not one prosecution was brought forward against it. He confessed he could see no difference between the principle of that Society and the Society now under consideration. His Hon. and Learned Friend had asked who was the responsible person in case an individual was aggrieved by this Association? He had no hesitation in answering, that it Murray or Sharpe prosecuted an individual, the party aggrieved might have his remedy against him, and the Committee who sat and directed the prosecution—(Hear).—But malice must be shewn to have actuated the prosecution. It was evident, then, that though the proof of malice might be difficult, the party aggrieved had, however, a better chance here than if he had been prosecuted by the Attorney-Gene ral.—As to their employment of spies, and the encou ragement which wasthereforesaid to be given to crime, be would only say, that he might with as much jus tice have been charged with encouraging Carlile to publish blasphemy, because he had directed a person to purchase Paine's Age of Recson in his shop.— He then made some observations on Orton t affidavit; lin answer to the•assertion of King, and contended had been published against the Queen I (Hear, hear). that Orton had done no more than ask if the whole —One was a libel on a woman, the other on a man, set of a work of which he saw a mmber lying on the and this excellent Society had taken re) notice of the counter could be completed? The crime was here first—( Cheers).—The Press had teemed With the found existing, and not created by a n y act of Orton. most disgusting libels; yet had this same, this 'Mina- With respect to the observations of his [lon. Friend, create Association, emptied all the phials of their the Member for Bramber, he could only say that on wrath on the other side, and that only—((leer, hear). the repetition of Carlile's offences after he bad been The Society was, in fact, evidently erected for party imprisoned, he (the Attorney-General) felt the outrage purposes, to punish libels on one side, and, it not of those offences as deeply as his Hon. Friend, and to encourage, at least to leave untouched all those on he in consequence prosecuted Carlile's wife for selling the other—( Hear, hear). the pamphlet alluded to. She was now suffering im- The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought that in prisonment for her offence—his daughter and sister order to form a correct opinion on the present clues were also prosecuted, and a prosecution was now im- tion, it would be proper to inquire what was the state pending over the head of the shopman for the same of the proceedings referred to by the motion ? Bills offence—(Hear, hear). What was the consequence? had been found by Grand Juries against individuals The shop was now closed. With respect to the le- for various libels; the Judges of the Court; of Law Igality of the Society, his opinion was, that he could had held these defendants to bail ; and now the see no reason to say that the Society was illegal. House of Commons was called upon. to address the Rut if it were thought so by any person, it was open Crown to stop these prosecutions, without any in to him to have it tried before a competent tribunal. quiry into e.eir merits. The Hon. and Learned Mem- , He denied that because an individual subscribed to ber here entered inio a review of the ptoceedings this Association, that therefore he was incapacitated against Dolby, and contended that the Society had, from sitting as a Juror on any of those prosecutions. in the course of the proceedings, done nothing which He admitted that, in the best Institutions, abuses was not justified by law. The stock of Dolby was might creep in; but he conceived that until those not demanded; he was only desired to give up the I abuses were proved it was too much to say that the remaining copies of the libel refereed to in the indict prosecutions which had been commenced ought to be ment. His Honourable , and Learned Friend (Mr. stopped by the interposition of this House—( Hear). Brougham) had not denied the legality of the So- Mr. BROUGHAM said, that, in his opinion, a ciety. Another Honourable and Learned Member man might with perfect consistency approve of the denied its legality, on the ground that no individuals other Societies alluded to incidentally, and yet dig- had a right to subscribe for the purpose of prose approve of that under the notice of the House; as outing public libels. That was an agreement which the distinction between them was as clear as possible. it appeared had now been given up. Indeed no at- Some offences were, and ought to be, nameless, and tempt had been made in the superior Courts to ques ought to be prosecuted; though many a man would tion the legality of the Society; and an attempt feel a repugnance at having his name mentioned in made before another tribunal had completely failed. the same line with such an offence, even as its prose. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then referred tutor. The argument drawn from the Societies to the Society f 1792, which he said had been ably prosecute for thefts could not apply to the present and eloquently defended by Lord Erskine himself, or, Association. How was it possible that a man s feel- the trial of Wiliiains for publishing Paine's Age of ings could be so interested in the case of a theft as Reason. What, indeed. could be a more proper they would he upon a question purely political ? object than the prosecuting of seditious libels? And Party feeiing would interfere, and even the Jury be- what sound objection could be raised against a So come contaminated with it, by the encouragement of ciety who could not take a -single step without the such a Society as this. The remedy proposed would previous opinion of a Grand Jury ? That such a So be an aggravation of the mischief; tor, as had been ciety was capable of abuse he did not deny, but no well observed by his Honourable and Learned Friend, ground had been shewn to induce a belief that any it would lead to the pollution of the very fountain abuse whatever existed in the conduct of these prose of justice. The Attorney-General had said, he did cations. He begged to correct his Hon. and Learned not see that Members of this Association were dis- Fliend'as to a remark he had made on the proceed qualified to sit as Jurymen on prosecutions instituted ings in the Court of King's Lench on the motion re by the Society. The Court of King's Bench, how- specting the Members of the Association qualified to ever, had declared them unfit, and had ordered, that serve on the Special Jury. The order of t!le Court the fact of a Juryman's being a member, should be relied on by his Hon. and Learned Friend had been a good cruse of challenge. If he (Mr. Broueliam) made with the consent of the prosecutors them subscribed to bring on an indictment, he certainly selves—(Hear, hear). No person, unless called on by was an improper person to try it—(Hear, hear).— a sense of duty, could consistently make charges of He really thought he must, in this respect, have mis- this description, which went forth with an appear understood the words of his Hun. and Learned Friend, ante of authority. As to the proposition itself, it the Atrorney-General—(Hear, hear).—ln the case of was of so extravagant a nature, that it was impossi a felony, if a man had subscribed money to find the ble to give it the sanction of the House. It was making bill el indictment, he (Mr. Brougham) held that this an attack which the House would never support. would be a good cause for challenging him as a Mr. BROUGHAM. in explanation, said that he juror ; and yet in such a case it was not likely that had not alluded to Dolby's case, nor said one word anything had occurred from the act itself to rouse about it; he had solely alluded to the words of the the passions. But the Bridge-street Association was Circular signed "J. B. Sharpe," which stated that founded in party feeling alone. Even the;r enthu- the Society had instituted several proceedings, and siasm, however honest, was dangerous; they at- abandoned some, upon the surrender upon oath , by tacked only those who differed from them in politics: the defendants of their entire stock of seditious pub and not the least objectionable part of the case was lications—(Hear!, from the Ministerial Benches). — the circumstance, that if the matter were carried by '6 Yes!" continued Mr. Brougham, " but the Society writ of error to the House of Lords, the last legal arrogated to itself the right to decide on what was resort, there were some dozen of Bridge-street Asso- seditious"—(Hear. hear). ciators to give check-mate to the proceedings—(A The SOLICITOR-GENERAL remarked, that the laugh, and cries of Hear, hear).—Would any man of observation certainly applied to Dolby's case. common understanding say that this was consistent Mr. BROUGHAM-66 Then, if it does, the So- , with common justice? The influence of the Mem. ciety has bragged falsely, and the defence makes hers of this Association was not confined to London. them worse than they are supposed to be." How could an impartial Jury be found in the country, Mr. SCA RLETT said, his Hon. and Learned Friend half' a dozen Jurors being tenants of the Duke of this, had risen for the purpose of calling him up, at the that, or the other, a Member of the Society ? How same time making statements c:f facts for the mete could the unfortunate defendant have a fair chance?— purpose of making them the foundation- of his al gu. A Counter-Association, he repeated, would be worse ments. He never had pledged himself to any opinion than the present evil; for it would cause the whole on the legality of this Association. He admitted that ccuntry to be split into parties, and would destroy the he did not consider the Society legal. Much as he hitherto proud character of English justice. The respected the talent of his Learned Friend. he would strict legality of the Association on its professed prin. not, in compliment to that talent, revoke any opinion cipies he did not deny; but the legality was no ob- he had once given. He thought this Association jection to the interference of the House. The abuse, usurped the functions of the Attorney-General. All even of a legal right, might be a fair subject for in- offences which affected the tranquillity of the State, terference. He did not ask whether what Mr. King should be prosecuted by the Government of the had said, or what Mr. Orton had said, was true ; but Country. It was the duty of the Attorney-General he wa• satisfied that Mr. Murray and Mr. Sharpe had to exercise a discretion whether the parties were to he bragged of the commission of acts which were illegal. prosecuted or not ; but an Association of men, when He thought it was not legal to go into a man's shop they undertook to prosecute, usurped that discretion, and say to him, " If you don't agree to certain terms and their proceedings were illegal and dangerous.— I propose. I will indict you : if you do not admit For these reasons then, without at all considering the your guilt, and give up your property to us who have motives of the individuals, he was of opinion the no right to ask it, and who cannot take it without vio- Constitutional Society in itself was unconstitutional, lating the law : if you do not, besides air this, take and consequently -illegal. He did not mean to say an oath never to repeat that which we pronounce to the Judges of tiie Land had decided on the question, be a legal offence; we will inflict legal vengeance indeed he did not know how they could obtain judg upon you, and you must endure the consequence." nient upon it. lle considered it a Society for the To do this, he thought was to act more like a robber prosecution of political offences which affect the than anything else—more like a violator than a pro- safety and tranquillity of the State. Their prose tector of the law. This he held to be illegal. If this cutions did not emanate from persons aggrieved ; WAS the laW, he had not studied it ; if it was a part of but they were preferred to benefit the State. Every the Constitution, he did not understand it. If these man had an interest in the preservation of the State, proceedings were to be supported by Peers, who and the law did not require an Association to do that might ultimately have to pronounce upon them ju- which belonged to the Government alone—(lfear). dicially, then all he could say was, that there never Upon his solemn word, he believed one or more of was an Association put down as illegal half so much the prosecutions that were undertaken by the Asso to be reprobated as this Society, this terror to all ciation, would not have been undertaken by the At good men, commonly known by the name of the torney-General. The Society for the Suppression of Vice might abuse the power they used. In one " Bridge-street Gang r!"--(Cries of Hear, hear).— in- There were, however, many persons belonging to the stance Lord Erskine threw up his brief, because the Society for whom, individually, he entertained a very Society obstinately refused to be governed by his high respect. To those he should prefer using the advice. All Societies prosecuting upon public prin. lenguageof expostulationrather than that of reproach. ciples were dangerous. He did not wish to give any opinion on the law of the land in that House, becaes.e —He believed they had been drawn into the Society by designing persons; that they were the tools of legal opinions in that Assembly were not always im others, for whom no one could possibly feel any re- partial. He did not think any case had occte-red in' spect—(Hear). "Church and State," "Social Order," the King's Bench to support his Learned Friend's and " Sacred Institutions," were fine phrases; but, in ! opinion. The time might arrive when the-Attorney. the present instance, they meant that it was necessary ! General would find he had not been sufficiently in. that a parcel of individuals should swell their own structeel. He felt this motion could not he supported, purses by using those of other people. Something, ' and he expressed a hope that his Honourable Friend however, had dropped from the Hon. Member for would not press it to a division, because he should Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce), about the propriety of I feel obliged to vote against it. putting down libels on both sides; but what was the Mr. WHITBREAD spoke in reply. He s3id, that . tact ? Why, that all on one side were mown down, nothing which had been said on the other side of the House convincedelim . that any good could ever arise and all on the other left untouched—(Hear). Beubow, he believed, had been prosecuted for publishing a Irom a Society like this. The only persons who °sten , caricature upon his Majesty; but this caricature was sibly represented the Society were Mr. Sharpe and Mr. ..tciuAlly a parody on another, quite as gross, which Murray ; he was not acquainted with either of them, and ho did not at all re' ret that circumstance. He Felt it necessary, however, to state, that-this Sharpe was a bankrupt; and he Itc!lievej there was. a Mem b.,r then pre , ..ent in the to Sha::.e owed a sum cf E9i)t). :tad wilt , was not likely ever to re ceive f),70 pence tiom l—.( I !ea 1:-J.•h.t.i not said a word about extol - tint: ol :ha part of i.ersons.- He thought it necessary to ell..erve, ih.o ' be o n ly in stance of a grits, libeller having his tine oitted, was that of Flindall, of due Western Luistial:ly, whose of fence ev , :rvhody Nva, accprainted xvith. as well as the party against whom he oWetkied. Ile 'honed not press his motion to a divi -, ion, but leave it to be dis. posed of by the liouse.—The moiion was then put and negatived. TUE LOTTPAIV BILL. On the Order of the LE,y for the third reeding of this fill, Mr. lIEN N ETT called the atreotion the !louse to the shocking evil , ing out of tie Lottery syssem ; which the So ciety for 111 - .: .111;)prC.,fif.111 4/1 Vice had pas •, d over without no ti•ze, while the y weie prosecutim , other g imblets. The (711.1.NOi:LIOlt tif the EXCi I Ettl;Eß assured the llmourahle Gentleman, that he h d littnvi:d never gained one shilling by the Lottery—(l.mqh). Mr. BROOCH:1 M thohglit it st , ..ry unlikely that the Illght Honourable Gentlentan, or tray one else, could make anything by the Lotteries, when a ticket, which sued for was not intrinsically worth ltio. The Dill was then read a third time and passed. APPItt , PIIIATION BILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the third reading of the Appropriation Bill. Mr. CREEVEY said, that as this Bill went to ap propriate all the 'Loney voted during the Sea ion, he would take the present opportunity of making some observations on the business which had occur, rd in that House since they last commenced their sittings. Ile did not rise to move that any of the grains con tained in the Bill should be. omitted, neither did he rise to offer objections to any of u:ern ;but he dished to express the great satisfaction he felt on account of • die late unanimous vote of ;louse in favour of retrenchment He called it unanimous, for it was but a race between the Noble Marquis, through the medium of his Hon. Friend, the Member for Corfe- Castle, and the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, as to which side of the House should come to the strongest resolution in favour of decided economy in future. Ilis Hon. Friend, the Alember for Aberdeen, had been repeatedly taunted by MMiszers, its consequence of his exertions ; but they had at last been compelled to agree to a Resolution, which would, he hoped, be followed up, and then they would appear to be great economists indeed. This advantage had been gained by adhering to the forms of the House, and by pursuing the path marked out by past exi.ei ience. At the commencement of the Session, he said that Committees of Supply had for a long time been a mere farce, but that they should no longer continue so. His assertion had been verified. The subject of the supplies had been so fully discussed, that the great body of the 1:eople of England we: e acquainted with them, and a pledge of pursuing a of eco nomical reform, in the next Session, had been obtained from Ministers. This question of economical reform was nearly allied to political reform; because, when it was properly pursued, it brought them to the strong holds of corruption, that great enemy f pro perty, of liberty, and of law !—(Year). Ile differed from his Noble Frieni the Member fur Bedfordshire, but he did so on this as on all other occa-ions with great respect, when he asserted diat the exertions of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen had effected nothing. He thought, with his Noble Friend, that the' power of the Crown had greatly increased in that House; but still he was of opinion that the freedom i.f s pee c h which they enjoyed, and the publicity which was given to their debates, were advantages of the highest importance; and from these, if from any causes, they might look forward to economical Reto m in the next Session of Parliament. The Hon-e was, he thought, in progress to do a great deal of good. What had occurred was a sort of it ial of the machinery of Parliament, and it was found to work admirably well. It was very true that upon many occasions not more than a hundred persons voted on the subjects intro duced by the lion. Member It;- Aberdeen ; but it: was a matter of great congratulation to find those subjects, which d eie f rmerly so much neglected, attracting the serious attentions of the Member for Yorkshire, and the Member for Biechingley—(Lord Milton and the Marquis of Tichtield). The Hon. Member then adverted to what had been done in consequence of the exertions of the Hon. Me...her for Aberdeen, with respect to the Receivers-General of the Land-Tax; and expressed a hope that Govern ment would put sue a similar course cc ith reference to the Department of Stamps. •He ailuded also to the motion he had made on the •1 1 / per Cent. Duties. • That Fund %could, he trusted, be placed at the dis posal of Government at no distant period, as part •of the Revenue of the country, instead of being. dealt out in Pensions to the Getitlen.en and Ladies who at present monopolized it—(lleer, hear). — He conceived, notwithstanding the tate of ti:e motion which had been introduced by tile lion. Alemher for Shrewsbury, that a Place lh,l ought to be carried into effect. It was absolutely necessary for the due protection of the Constitution. The Grampound Bill gave him much satisfaction. It was a measure most favourable to the People of England, since it recog nized the principle that populati:ll and pi °petty had a claimto representation—(Hem•).--The Hon. Member concluded by expressing his regret that the Bill of his Learned Friend (Nlr. M. A-Taylor), for the better administration of justice in the Court of Chancery, had not been agree to. Everybody acquainted with the proceedings of the Court must feel the necessity of such a measure. The Maquis of LONDONDERRY rejoiced to ollierve the good humour which now pret--iiled cn the other side of the Iluux ; but to tvhich the Ger tietnen opposite appeared, at 6111(.5, to be entirely strangers—(iicar, hear). lie t; listed, that in the nett Session of Parliament they would be equally pleasant. They appealed to have receded in a consitierable degree from that political and constitutional utopia which they ha.i originally et up. The lion. Gent e• man who had just spoken gave a very limper icbake to the Noble Member fur Iledfordshire, who despai:, d o f an y good being effected by that House. Ti.e Hon. Member had, however, his ,_,iocsmy momcnts, as well as the Noble Lord whose opinion he Lad opposed.— s , icined to think that a Place Dill was heeessary to preserve the purity of Pat liarneut ; ai.cl yet, if tint observation, given, as it.we:o, in a parenthesis, was omitted, it wculd he found that the Hon. Member admitted, that Parli.tunt.t, as now cra:ttituted, was 1