Star. — London, England, 1810-04-17 00:00:00

hen. stion the o be iinis- For 1, he ht it riven con. )t be s the ) this ATAC stake - pose. coun r pri- . prtvt. d last then, would :h WAS Right j lor of speak IS pos. thc!,e. !pent!, talents :d thus . ry, Ile ;and for the t mea. n that td suf: lid Al to pit whicl 1 year, ouse o ocietie g beer Ilect ti x, Mel rded it id beei he pla is un it. Bu ition 0 igh nc ition c t wouh of till ence o and ou : Hous !Iy. 1 nced h himsel the re his al Laverinl nd ,t Gen' n prisq was id ricationi pers the did suppol acy tha Ir prose But b Id he h or witl ch they le to g !sere afl e Hous: Learne :scion a ould ric . afraid I COIIVII form al the ma who h 0 e Howa theo ideratioi now thl MC,ISUI ce ; an , e w:ts 0 ouse any, Aerate point the d he W4l hat prac. whethei 1 against Inces like 7171 ? Fri ages, be. r, but ho rted xs tc e present Id not IA n, on thi lad mid tt he tva all tiros' t arise in !d. Tl'e as not ne iedgment aestion to that was his vote the argu• !ct to r 'or an in. a petition order to nator 2ll / of sorr°: o ow*: etitiontni r r weisisu. __.__--------- , , , 'l77' • Ouse would be disposed to agree The nett question is, urhether he shalt' be kept in lionon - rabman (Mr. Secrerar eherwise y 11% I .... , t. 1:1:1 ii esv as eetrhre.lhOlthoutos break in upon those wage* prisonoailing to c omply with the forms of the House? had called the able speech of his Honourable - and t:• very loth to go to all the con- . With respect to that, he must say that his acinsole- Learned Friend common places, had certainly exhi ;eel A t th e slrne t ' mc might entail, for it might *o - lodgement was an answer to those Gentlemen who bited inhis own impressive, eloquent, illustrative, and wh . ich f, t , l ,. e , y , ns m i g ht he committed at chf- considered that his , ex t . n..... ., ~.. tvit;eicesrefusal was perhaps the effect of conclusive speech, a most striking contrast. to ,the ,; s of the Se ssion for the same sort of some workings of conscience. His answer was a common places he described. It had been said , that est pas( L, m i g ht be committed at the corn- proof that he now dealt contumaciously' by thetlouse, in all such cases the House war bound to decide for lice. A p e rson c., , io ec trent ()Ethic Seision, Tdo choosing to peti- by refusing to confirm that which. his conscience per- itself. That he denied. It had not done so in the Gene t:ee Heuse not beingdisposed to relax its mitted him to acknowledge when first brought to the case of Stockiale or Reeves. The Attorney t,•-• • ,11;erion may remain the whole of the Ses- bar. It was, in short, nothing more than a continu- cal was ordered to prosecute. The Right Hon. .n a lVag e ' .: • •ioother person, fen- a similar offence, • ante of that contempt and contumacy,, and made all Gentleman (Mr. Ryder) therefore had mistaken ,ier , i n prison • oi ..o n three or four days of the close of the Ses s ion,: the difference in the case. For a month past, Mr. and mistated the practice of the House. In all his it '', ,be committed, and petition, and then h e di s . ' Jones had been tot' s if he demeaned himself pro- arguments the Right Hon. Gentleman confounded /v v. ~, , r ei . One, therefore, lies in prison six or seven : perly, and petitioned, he might be discharged the the commitment of Gale Jones with commitments to c ,,. ~ .1 the other, because he c h o oses to p et i. • ne xt d a y. I n any case much. might be said on the which it bore no resemblance. Why should it be con ra „ u h s , ano d . 01 , i s liborate l in three or four days. There was ! duration of punishment ; but in the present, when founded with the cases of Drake, of Clavering, and o• dlennice, tacit, supposingthe measure of punishment, the party had the option of relieving himself by Sandon ? Forbid it, justice I forbid it, fair dealing 1 t ,, . 11 dependent ( it to be so) on the coming to the House in the usual form, the House forbid it, the spirit of toleration ! Mr. Gale Jones had aiici it i f Pailiament. Were a question to be put to . were, on his refusal to comply with the form, obliged been punished for a thin g . that, to the knowledge of c'g e o i i .. Master of the Rolls), " Do you think this' to look at the motive, and ascribe it to its true cause every Member in the House, had been practised l• n1 ‘''' r 11the -. l I, is sutiered a pulasoment which the of- . —contumacy. With respect to the cases of General every day for a considerable time past. As to the r..ta .ce jeni. „o, , I should answer, " I think he ; Claveting, Captains Sandon and Drake, those were privileges of the House, he conceived they should be It leis been said, icily follow up the punish- cases distinctly different, for they had stated some- resorted to only in cases of necessity ; and he saw no ~.. for 1 'Nra period ? Why punish a man, not thing false, and consequently must in their petitions necessity for the House having exercised its power in rot . . ~, . a ot be has been found guilty of; of a crime on admit it ; but here Jones had in the first instance ad- the case of Mr. Jones. He happened not to be in the i , a ' v ih e o sentence had been passed, but for the of- mitted his error, and was now desired to embody that House at the time the vote passed for his committal, fe...ce ct ebstirocy, an offence hich . is not to be admission into the petition, which he refused to do.— and he was now happy that he had in no degree ;,, 1 t h, cat ilogue of orfences cognizable by this Was there any thing either in the times or in the made himself a party to that vote. If ever a similar t ism! u.. i o He is to be punished for something which `case which should make it necessary for the House question should again be brought forward, he should lo V ,e, p e ase requires him to do, but which he objects to depart from the usual forms ? Were the rights, the not concur in such a vote. He should, on the con . This was a species of punishment which is certainly ; privileges, and the laws of the House to be clipt ? trary, propose that the case should be referred to .a to. I.noi to the criminal jurisprudence of the coon- : Did it become necessary to diminish them ? The Jury. It was well known that many. things, which for us es What did it signify to the House his confessions l Riiit Honourable Gentleman agreed with his Learn- . a long time had been considered privileges, were ty of • • o f s orroW ? What if he should, under the idea ed mild, that if the refusal to liberate Jones was an foundwhen examinedto be noprivileges at al Among , i i„ „ ti hi s liberty, being a forced confession ?Was : act of injustice, it ought not to be persevered in but that number, he would mention' manorial rights. He re,a ~, . lib e rty, by keeping him (in the event of his ;it was not so. In his opinion, the submission of the would not contend that Mr. Gale Jones should be re s thing gain refusal so to do) three or four months longer in pri- ;offender made a principal ingredient in the discharge. ;leased on account of any circumstances belonging to on ? W .ts any thing gained by the confession ? Were Tile House would see with what temper he was Cis- 1 the present time, but that he had a right to be rtleased the privileges of the House so ranch in danger, that I posed to resist the forms of the House ; and seeing no loq the justice of his case. It would be cruelty to t oe wanted the mighty aid of Gale Jones's Petition 1 reason to induce the House to depart from its forms, I continue his punishment for a term offender than ip port them. If he, should be discharged, and I the Right Honourable Gentleman should vote against could be considered adequate to his He to sl b e kind again offending, might not he, by the same (the motiqa. knew nothing at all of Mr. Gale Jones ; but he had a infseity, he again taken up• and punished ? Thel Sir THOMAS TURTON, in explanation, stated heard that at the bar of the House he made a decent Learned Gentleman was of opinion, that the mere ab- i that he bad presented no petition from General Cla- apology fot . his - offence, and he thought the House staining from petitioning ought not to weigh with the ' vering, whom nothing could have tempted to acknow- ought not now to insist upon any more. It might fisuei in detaining Jones in prison beyond the pre. lsdge that he had prevaricated, when conseious that i very well happen that in 'the mean time, he might sent time. The convenience of petitioning was ad- he was wholly inapable ot such conduct. I have changed his opinion, and might now conceive, erteol by most prisoners, because in eo doing they Mr.WHITBREA.D, if the explanation of the Henn ias many others did, that the anuse had no right to woe snre to obtain their release. If the House Baronet had not anticipated hire, had intended to set l commit him. If this was the conviction of his mind thocht the punishment already endured was suffici. the Right Hon. Gentleman right as to the allusion at present, it would be cruel to confine him until he ent, he bought they ought to discharge him. Were mila to the case of General Clavering. No peti- seated a contrary opinion. A good deal had been said L e o , h e asked in this case to what peviod Jones whatever had been presented to the House from about the state of the public mind upon the present s hould be confined, whether a month, six weeks, or General Cl as Terio , ; an d s o f ar a s the-reasoning of the qiesticeo He must allow that it was impossible to be two months, he should say in all conscience two Right Hon. Gentleman rested upon that case, it Intla entirely indifferent to that consideration ; and the opi. tomtits was punishment enough ; and, being of that fall' to th e groun d. H e wa s of opinion, that the nions which he had heard and read since this question ripi&on, should vote for his discharge. He was not Right Hon. Gentleman, in the course of argument, NV As first agitated, had shaken most considerably the snuated in giving such a vote by motives of fear ; had done gr e a t i n j u stice to Gale Jones. By compa- opinion he oad before formed with respect to the pri tor, on the other hand; was he to do an act of in- ring his commitment to the case of persons committed vileges of the House on the point of commitment. He justice m erely to slew his courage ; all he desired the for falsehood or prevarication, the Right Hon. Gen- thought it was however most unfeir to make the state Ho w e to consider with him was how they ought to tleman had done much injury to the person whose case of the public mind an argument for continuing Gale adrn•nister substantial justice, and that was toise ad- was now under consideration. He was glad to find Jones in prison longer than the justice of his case re ministered in this case by discharging Mr. Jones. the Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite admitting that quired ; and that no man ought to be sacrificed in The SPEAKER conceived, that as he had been the submission of Gale Jones at the bar was order to prove the privileges oldie House. If he was illed to, it might be the pleasure of the House that sufficiently ample ; because, when he had stated that now to be discharged and commit another act of the le should state the course of proceeding in cases like upon a former occasion, these Right Honourable same kind, he might be again taken up and punished the present.—(lfear, hear. ) —He would state what he Gentlemen had denied the fact. Now, h o wever, the as if he had not been before imprisoned. The conti hod learnt from the Journals of Parliament as to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite acknowledged that nuance of the punishment beyond all measure or ap practice of the House. The course generally pur- the submission was such at that time as to satisfy him, pearance of justice, would produce an effect on the eel Liffered in respect to commitments to the cus. if only renewed in a petition. The Right Hon. Gen- public mind, very opposite to that which would be eely of the Serjeant at Arms and to jail. In the in- tleman had made but a partial quotation from the wished by those who were for supporting the charac stiezecf commitment to the Serjeant's custody, peti- minutes, because if he had quoted the whole passage ter of the House with the country. twos preparatory to discharge was the practice; in it would give a different appearance to the feeling Mr. CANNING did not feel it necessary to exa. some cases, and in others the person in custody has that produced it. The passage should begin, mine the question, whether the House did or did not been discharged in statements made to the House. reviewing the paper, however, I acknowledge my possess the privilege, or whether they were or were The Members of a Committee before whom, perhaps, I error," &c. The House of Commons, he did think, not right in the exercise of. it ? These questions had the person committed, a witness had refused to give had treated Gale Jones with cruelty in committing been already decided by the House. The simple and Way , and conducted himself in an unbecoming him for such an offence after he had thrown himself naked question in the present instance was, whether way, but being sensible of his error has apologised to upo argued mercy. But the Right Hon Gentleman the measure of theistpunishmen inflicted was or was not the Committee, and they have interceded with the had that lie now refused to acknowledge by adequate to the guilt of arty ?He had not heard Heese, by stating that he has deported himself pro- petition what he had previously admitted, and that it any Honourable Member say, that he did not think Feely. There was a case of this kind, of a man of the was okving to his own contumacy that he was not dis- it adequate ; arid therefore, being now forced to come rian:e of Alcock, an attorney, a year or two back, he charged. What could the House think of Mr. Jones, to a decision, he must say, that it did appear to him petitioned, a nd w o ks discharged the some night. In the or he of the House of Commons, that after having an adequate punishment for the offence. He felt, 1 Cl3e of Peter Stuart, the Printer, 3or 4 years back, admitted his error and thrown himself' upon its however, sorry that the question had been brought WhO waS sent for a breach of privilege to the custody i mercy, it should be expected that lie should a second before the consideration f the House this eeening. of Serjeant, he having petitioned, was discharged. • time acknowledge his offence et? ha it not enough He had much rather, considering the particular With res pe c t to commitments to jail, the general . that he had once made the I.cknowledgement No ! circumstances of the time (Westminster, probably cense was , no t t o relieve without petition. He did said the Right Hon Gendeman, in the spirit of alluded to the meeting at that the Lot Gird any rule to the contrary ; the practice ap. ,his intolerance, we must have him again do that motion had been postponed for 43 hours; but as it peared un if or m. As to the sort of petition, it was ia . which he has done before. We shall have him again was brought forward now, he must determine on the many cases various, - as the petitioners in some in- . at the bar, aud make him shew that he has not elan- vote lie should give by the merits of the case itself, stances t h oug ht t h e best mode to adopt for their en- - ged his opinion. • But, supposing him to have chan- independent of extraneous - considerations. The Hci largement, but the petitions invariably acknowledged ged his opinion ; supposing that others toohave than- nourable Gentleman who brought forward the motion that the party petitioning had offended against the , ged their opinions ; why should he compel him to (Sir S. Romilly) had declared that he had no man- Pre:ileges of the Howe. It was not required that the say that what he thought true yesterday he continues tier of communication with Mr. Gale Jones upon the petitioner should go into the particulars of that of. to think true this day ? He - was aware that the Right i subject of the motion. As Mr. Jones, therefore, had Once, b ut mere ly t h a t he s hould express his sorrow Honourable Gentleman was stedfastly fixed iii his I nothing to do with bringing forward the motion on fur it. These were the modes of proceeding and prat religious opinions, and that he might call upon the I that particular day, he thought it would be very hard toe of the House so far as he - had been enabled to House to believe slu t h y had been taught when they I that he should suffer on account of the circumstances ascertain from the Journals. were children. B, said the Right lion. Gentle- lof the time in which the motion was made. Would The CHANCELLORof the EXCHEQUER was man, he is not to be called en to retract any theoreti- I the Honse determine to exhaust upon Mr. Gale at:elm that the uniform practice of the House had. cal opinion. If he had changed his opinion upon the ; Jones th 6 whole measure of punishment that they Leo, as seite o o y t h e sp ea k e r so correctly—that with subject of that paper, which he had before admitted ; were capable of inflicting, or did they really think that respect to p ersons comm i tte d to gao l, they must pe- to be an offence or view on his part, would it not be his crime desere'ed the greatest punishment which the btturt before the House cou ld en tertain the question to call upon him to do vVence to his cenviction, to 1 House could inflict ? It was alledged, that, besides his i' discharging them. The qu estion was not whe- oblige hint to acknowledge 'vie the did not nOW be- 1 original offence, 1:c kid been guilty of c ontumacy, 1 :• 1 * a petition must be p r eented, hot whether there hove ? Suppose a man to live before the Reforma- which deserved additional punishment. He really 'vansthis case circumstances, a nd w hether the times don, and for disbelieving . t r ansubstantiation tt; be •• could not discover this contumacy. When this person such as to induce the House to thitik that they brought before the persecuting Inquisition. Suppose , sots brought to the bar, he, ia the first instance, eon- U:euld act wisely in departing from the uniform prat- him, before that terrible tribunal, to admit that he : fessed his fault, and stoOolicated the mercy of the cite? The Right H on . Gentleman could see nothing believed the article, arid notwithstanding to be sent . lloese. After tn.:: supplicatiou of mei cy, it appeared either in the case or in the times to justify him in to prison, where meeting with books to enlighten Ito many that it was . rather 'hard and severe for drinking that the present was the period in which him, he discovers t he err o r into which he had fallen, the House to send him to prison. But why should i it w as a b so l ute l y expe di ent to make a departure from 111 and reverts into his former opinion, wou ld it be no :it lof said that he refuse s nos to confess his s'" established Maize . The Learned Gentlem an retractation of his opinion for him to be obli g ed to ad- . fault ? Did the House ask him to do it ! Might ' - ' lO brought forward the m ot ion had made use of mit the doctrine of transubstantiatisin But the Right i not he well suppose that the sanie arguments and sup. 1 great deal of what h e con oidered ar gument, to ' . lion. Gentleman, if he did not acknowledge what he plications which failed. before might fail now ? He i','J'ice the House to agree w ith hi m . H e h a d par. had done before, would apply to him the torture of , wished that this question ( should be considered sepa tcul,irly argued against what he deemed the injus- the mind. Might not the man pi cperly avow, he rawly on its oit n merits ; and he agreed perfectly ice of callin on ersons to recant any theoretical would rat her rot in p rison than submit to such a re- ' NVith the Right Honourable and Learned Gent leman g p or heretical opinions which they might have held. cantation ?than be driven tali dmit that to be false (the Master of the Rolls), that it would neither be Against a ll t h ose argumen ts, lie must beg to state which he knew to be true is would be Jones's just nor suitable to the real dignity of the House to fee there were no theoretical opinions which could case if he had co nscientiously c hanged his opinion : keep this man in prison longer than appeared to them be given upo—the House did not make any such call. since he had been at the bar of that house.e But the ! just, from the fear of appearing to be afraid. If Mr. All that was desired Was that in point of form Mr. Right Hon. Gentleman would have nement Jones should now be discharged, after having re- Jones should do that which he had done already, and continued to the end of the -Session, if he did not pe. , mained so long in prison, no one could say that the :hich he ought to do before lie could be entitled to be tition, and that too at a time when he was remarking ;House had abandoned any of its privileges, or that discharged. Having confessed his error, on what upon the infirmities of the House of Commons respec- • his release set that question at rest. As to the dig- Principle i s i t now preten d e d t h at h e o ught to r efuse thig the infliction of punishments. That Right Hon. nity of the House, he thought now the great offender to repeat that statement and acknowledgment which Gentleman was the first man who in a British' House l (who he would contend had justly and legally been when at the bar, he so voluntarily made ? Was lit be- of Commons desired that it might have the power of imprisoned) was suffering the punishment inflicted Cause he found it to be the uniform Practice of the imprisoning for a certain dine. This was the first 'by the House, it could not lower the dignity of the House.? Did he not, when at the bar, say " I have instance of such a n d octrine being broached since these - House to release the smaller offender, after having in teed, and I throw myself on the mercy of this assem- Ountions had bee canvassed by enlightened men. kf flitted on him a measure of punishment which an d Was i t too muc h to requ i re t hat he should now he for one vrete to be in the situation of Jones and to peared to be generally considered adequate to his ot ,; • "wait by petition which he before had done verbally i . Pe titiebe he would be a hypocrite. The other Right fence. • CMILLS..I.S. V ag -• _ ageinst the releasing Mr. Jones, without his present, ing a petition in the usual forms. He could not see any reason for excepting this case from the general'. rule. He did not see. on what particular grounds. it could be contended that Mr. Jones was entitled to more favour froth the House than other persons Is ho had been committed to prison by the House, He could not agree with the Honourable Gentleman, that there was any necessity for Mr. Jones or any other petitioner recanting any particular opinion : it was only necessary that he should seve generally his sorrow for having violated the privileges of that House. • Now he could not conceive what objection Mr. Jones could have, in point of conscience, to state that in writing, which he had. already stated at the bar of the House. He believed that no man could decay that Mr. Jones had been guilty of a violation of the privileges of the House ; and if k were impossible for him to doubt that he had been guilty of that offence, what reasonable objection could he have to comply with what was required by the forms of the House, and say so in a petition ?--s Confessionavould have nothing to do with the abstract question of the right of the House to commit, or the other questions which had recently been agitated.— There were two remarkable cases, which were di rectly in point. In the last Session, the House had committed Captain Sandon and General Clavering. The former had evidently beer. guilty of the grossest prevarication, which he confessei ; and the latter had positively declared, and the declaration was believed by his friends and many Members of the House, that he never did intend to' prevaricate. Of this , however , every body was agreed, that the guilt of Captain Sandon, in concealing the note, and the many false hoods he told respecting it, was greater than the of tence of General Clavering. Nevertheless, Captain Sandon was liberated after a month's imprisonment, because he presented a petition; and General Cla vering, because he presented no petition, was suffered to remain in prison till the end of the Session, which was three months from the date of his imprisonment: These recent instances would shew that the House was accustomed to shew lenity to those. who asked it by petition in the usual forms. Mr. \V. SMITH could not see that the dignity of the House absolutely required some petition, but that any petition of any kind would be sufficient to sa tisfy that dignity. He thought nothing could be more contrary to the real dignity of the House than to confine a person longer that: the justice of the case required, merely on a point of form. He thought the H9li.lurable and Learned Gentleman (the Soli citor-General) who had just sat down had chosen strange cases to sapport his argument. As to the imprisonment of General Clavering for three months, he believed there were very few who recollected the evidence he gave, that considered an imprisonment of three months as a punishment too great for his offence; and therefore it was not at all surprising that no Member shouldhave moved forhis beingdischarged without a petition. The f.ict was, that it was the opi nion and the advice of the friends of General Clever• ing, that it was more advisable for him to remain in prison during the Session, than receive that sort of reprimand which he would have been liable to, if he had been discharged upon his petition. Capt. Sandon had presented • a petition, and was discharged after a month's imprisonment, upon receiving a reprimand. It could not however be said, that he received more lenity than General Clavering, as the friends of the General thought it better that he should be some time longer in prison than be subject to such a reprimand. There was, however, a prodigious deal of difference between the guilt of General Clavering and that of Mr. Gale Jones. He believed that every one must allow that the offence of the latter by no means me , rited so severe a punishment as was due to that of General Clavering. lie thought it would be an un worthy and disgraceful reason for continuing Mr Jones in custody, that to-morrow a great Meeting wee expected inWestminster. (Hear, hear.) Why shoal( he be imprisoned in consideration of the probability o some other persons doing some other thing entirely un connected with his offence ? As to the question which would then probably be discussed, he must say that b very much wished that the House had agreed to the re primand instead of committing Sir Francis Burden If they had done so, many disagreeable consequence might have been avoided. At present, the minds c the public were, and must necessarily be in a state( suspence about the legality of the execution of it warrant, until the trial should have taken place. II thought that this question ought to be decided on i real merits, and that the further imprisonment of M Jones should not be made to depend upon a me point of form. If the House really conceived th Mr. Jones had received sufficient punishment for offence, he could not think that it would be at all f their dignity to act contrary to justice. Mr. MARRYAT did not consider that Mr. Ga Jones should be punished merely for obstinacy. the punishment be had received was considered sus cientfor his contempt of the privileges of the Hott it was his opinion that he ought to be discharged. Sir JAMES HALL did not conceive that t House would either consult its dignity or its char ter by an unnecessary prolongation of the imprisc meat of Mr. Jones. He did not know but that, far from a punishment, it might be of service to hi It might serve him in his debating society, and in trade as an oreter, to have his case made interest] to the feelings of the public. He would probably considered as a martyr tb public principles, and wo gain a degree of popularity that would abundar repay him for his imprisonment. Mr. WILBERFORCE observed, that no n yet had attempted to answer the very able argumc of his Right Honourable and Learned Friend ( Master of the Rolls). The powerful' argunnt which he urged with so much weight remain completely unanswered, be could not avoid agree to his conclusions, and voting for the release of : Gale Jones. The case of Captain Sandon only ved that the House did, upon a petition, remit a of the punishment which they would otherwise h considered due to the offence. Their remitting, h ever, part of the merited punishment on accoun a petition, could not at all be produced as an argter fur inflicting more than an adequate and merited de of punishment on a person who did not petition (I hear.) He thought this case ought to be decided its own particular merits, without any considerate circumstances which were extraneous to it. all the views he could take of the subject, ha