Star. — London, England, 1823-04-25 00:00:00

which did not immediately affect our own interests. —lt was said it would be most improper for us to suffer Spain to lose her independence for the eg g, randisement of another country, and moreespecially for the aggrandisement of France. But first it might be right to enquire whether France could be thus aggrandised—whether she could gain ftom the conquest of Spain additional means of injuring Eng land, or of any other Power ? If her armies tri umphed in Spain, and half the Spanish people were still opposed to her, no man would say this would give her strength. The French could not be corn-' pletely successful if the greater portion of the people were unfavourable to their enterprize. If on the other s band, the Spanish people were really in favour of thra i invaders of their country, and were disposed to pre-; fer, not the original Spanish Constitution, but a Con stitution more monarchical than that of the present anarchy, on what grounds could we opposp their wishes ? Much was said of the dangers which would result to this country ft om Spain being under the con troul of France. But what very alarming danger had arisen from the state of things in the course of the last century ? It was also to be remembered that countries did not remain the same because their geo- Fraphical situation and their names were unchanged. the former war, on account of the Succession, did not break out till the spirit of this country had been roused by the connection of James the Second with Louis the Fourteenth. But what was Spain then ? Spain had a fine army, her finances were tolerably flourishing—were as well as those of most countries at that period, and she had a navy which was equal to that of France. Then it was deemed of import ance to prevent the Ciotsns of the two countries from being worn by the same family. The war ended by establishiog the Bourbons, but it oddly enough happened to baffle all the politicians of that period, that the next war saw France the ally of England against Spain. -The fears that had been entertained on the subject of the Family Compact was so far di. minished, that when the war which terminated, in the peace of 1753 was brought to a conclusion, though that war had been conducted with unexampled suc cess, it was never requi.e.l on the part of England, that the family compact should be dissolved. Though England woald ever look with *a jealous eye on the extension of French influence over Spain, there was no small difference between Spain such as she for merly was with an army, with money, with a navy equal to that of France, and mistress of all the richest Colonies in the world ; and Spain, such as she was now, a divided people, without arms, without money, without fleets, and without Colonies.-- He did not say that it was desirable that France and Spain should be connected by any ties which might encourage them hereafter to unite against England; but the danger of such an union now was very dif ferent from what it had formerly been. We had a right to look to our own interests, but .when we formed eur view of the just rights of nations, other Powers, which believed principles, which we did not approve, more congenial to the happiness of nations, had as good a right to act on their opinions as we could 'lave to enforce ours. If England, then, were to take her station, by putting herself at the head of the liberties of Europe, other Powers might think themselves justified by uniting against her. They might be disposed to make war on her now, -when if they knew she had the means of drawing the sword, if necessary, they alsO knew that she desired repose after the exertions she had already made. He ar gued against the policy of a more decided tone being taken on the part of this country than had been taken in the late negociation. From theaituation of the two countries we could not have done more, unless we had. gone the length of insisting that France should dismiss her Army of Observation. Had this been done, it:was probable the causes of irritation subsisting between them would sooner or later have terminated in war. We must then go further and declare, that France shall not be for one minute at war with Spain.with out England. taking part against her. The conse quence of this must be,.that we should be called-upon to support our -dignity, not by a small addition to our Navy to defend our neutral rights, but we mast be prepared with powerful fleets to sweep the sea, and an army ready to act on the Continent. The Noble Lord had declared-himself favourable to war, but he was of opinion that by keeping out of it now, . if it hereafter became necessary for us to take part in. it, we could do so with many advantages on which we could not calculate at present. The Noble Lord had said Ministers ought not to trust the assurances of France. Whether.they were to be trusted or not, it was unpleasant to express distrust; but for this he thought that there was littleoecasion,where assurances only promised that which was most consonant to the. interests of the party from when] they prpceeded. He knew not why the assurances of France with re spect to Portugal ought to be discredited. If she failed in her attempt on Spain, there was an end of all danger for Portugal; and if she succeeded, could the Noble Lord think that she would not have enough to attend to, without embroiling herself with England, whom she knew to be engaged to protect her ally. Portugal stood by no means in the same situation with respect to France as Spain did.— Portugal had not been concerned in any violation of the French territory, nor was it from Portugal that that moral contagion was to be apprehended which furnished a pretext for the invasion of Spain. enleis Portugal provoked attack, could it be expected that the other Powers of Europe would suffer her to be sverrn . ta.P.ln case of her. being invaded, England ,could then stand forth, not as the friend of revolp tion, but as. defender of her Ally. One point had been strongly insisted on by the Noble Lord as a matter of charge against Ministers. He had corn plained that Ministers, had advised Spain to make' some changes in her Constitution while she was threatened with invasion from France. He did not know that Ministers deserved reproof if, as friends, they has given .advice without demanding com pliance.as the price of their friendship, or threatening hostilities in case of refusal. To take such a course was, he thought, the duty of a friendly State; yet Ws . the Noble Lord regarded as a violation of inter national law. Did the. Noble Lord .ehink that the • Constitution of the Cortes cock make Spain happy and prosperous; or, aid he even think that, with such a, Constitution, Spain ever could bahal?pyissid prosperous ? He did not say that its fiuks,tustified the hostile interference of a foreign Power; hot lie insisted that these justified a friendly Seas in point- ing out its fitness for that or Cottony other country.— For.the chltracter of that Constitution he might refer to a publication which certainly bad not made itself remarkable by its general accordance with de views of his Majesty's present Ministers, the Edinktgh Re view. In that publication, after many admirable re marks, it was stated that, with the erception of Ca diz and part of the Army, the Constitution met with general reprobation.—Here the Noble Earl read a description of the Constitution from the Edinburgh Review, in which it was represented to be most ob jectionable in many respects, and injurious or offen sive to all classes, withdrawing advantages from some, and conferring privileges on others, which they neither understood nor desired.—lf we were now to go to war with France, and his Noble Friend near him (the Duke of Wellington) were again to command an English army in Spain, he would find himself in a divided country, and opposed by many of those who had formerly given him their support. It was fitting that he should state that Ministers had never suggested to Spain the expediency of submit ting to take a Constitution solely as the gift of the King. What had been suggested in the Memoran dum of the Noble Duke, merely indicated, that if certain changes were made in the Constitution, which would be for the happiness of the people of Spain, such an alteration would be agreeable to England. He, for his own part, was at a loss to see how it could be inconsistent with the honour and dignity of Spain to entertain such a proposition at the instance of a friendly Power, because unreasonable suggestions had been pressed' upon her. from another quarter. When it was her intention to make altera tions for her own sake, he did not see that it was ne cessary for her to decline doing so, because at that moment such alterations were desired by France.— It was not true Ministers had wished the Members of the Spanish Government to violate their oaths, but it I was proper to remark that a great difference of opi nion existed with regard to the constitutional oath.— Some conceived the separation of the colonies from the mother country had so altered the Constitution, that the oath was altogether void. All that the Eng lish Government had wished was this, that the Spa nish Government should lean to that interpretation of the oath which would be most for its own advan tage, and such a recommendation he did not think at alLdetr acted from the honoUr of the country which received it,.or from that by which it was given. It had been said that if the principles upon which France now acted were suffered to go on without check, a crusade might eventually be 'resolved upon to cor rect the Cqqstitution, of this country. If the Powers of ebe-Continent should ever desire to improve our system, as an Englishman he should be disposed to say-4g Let them come and try !" He concluded by repeating, that if England should be eventually com pelled to draw the sword in this contest, she would do so at a future period with greater advantage than at present. He trusted the House, instead of passing the proposed censure on Ministers, would, on the con trary, consider them entitled to support and approba tion—(Hear, hear). Lord HOLLAND thought he should be able to • prove that the Noble Earl's strictures on the Consti tution of Spain-were proofs of the grossest ignorance of the institutions of that country. When was it known that a Minister brought down a mass of Papers to prove the complete failure. of his own policy, and yet expect that the British Parliament was pot to es. press its fair and honest opinion ? Ministers had in a Secretary of State, one of the ablest pens and .most eloquent reasoner: in Europe ; they had a .broble Duke as their negociator„ whose very name was.as pociated with the Auccess.of his country. .They had the lkitish.Parliarnent and People with them: They bad, .above all, a just cause; and .yet, they failed, be cause an honest intention was. wanting. The Noble' Earl had for twelve years been telling them of the resoorces and honour .of the country. He, like Ti motheus, sat on high and shook the spheres; but now he sung that • „ . War was toil and trpuble, • " Honour, but an empty bubble;—. Lovely Thais tfurbtiide thee, « Take the good the. Gods pve:ide tow But lovely Thais did not, perhaps,. sit .beside them, for their mistress, neutrality, might be a coy wanton.. It seemed, that all. through,. the Noble Lords oppo site had been actuated.by a sort of love for the Bour bons, and a carelessness of the honour and interests of this country. Their. dissuasion was like that of ' Phcebur, to induce Phaeton to give up his mad and presumptuous career, without shewing, , him the dreadful consequences resulting from.his folly. For the conduct of the Bourbons be could not cadertake to describe it s—it had,. however,. been so well pic tured by a great. master of thehurnan heart of for mer times, that though the passage to which be al luded was almost too long to quote, be would veg• tore to repeat it to their. Lordships. He would give the lines as he found them, and say—. " But shall it be that you--fint setlbe crown Upon the heed of this• forguttui moo; And, far his sake, wear the detested. blot Of murcrrous subernation,—sball it be, That you a world of curses undergo; Being the agents v or base *sound rowing, , • The cords, the ladder„orthe hangman rather ?•-- 0 pardon me that, I descend so low, To show the line sod the predicament. Wherein you range under this subtle King ! Shall it•for shame be spoken in them days, Or Mt up chronicles he tiqustl 0411110, That men of:your nobility and power, gage them both in an unjust behalf As both of you, Goa pardon it, have done? • • • • • . .1 • • • • Arid 410.11 it in colors ahem be furthaspehee, That you are fooled, discarded. and shook off By him for whom these shames you underwent" The course which the Noble Earl had taken to prove that himself and his collesigues had, not been duped was singular.. fie had compared their conduct to that of a man in love.;nni in excuse for their folly, 'said " That Love may hope where Reason most despair;" and, acting thus, he would say, they .had proved themselves ready to become the dupes of all mankind. —He was sure that the gross aggressions committed on Naples.and Piedmont would not have 'occurred, without the conniTancl or Oh country. When was it heard, till now, that it was a matter of indifference to us whether Prince held possession of Spain or not? The Noble Lora did not like the word dupe, but he confessed he hatbeen duped himself; for he had; et otie time, thought that they had succeeded by cajolery; but he now found that they werd like some sports men who took to lanes and gates; and irthey came in at the death, were thought to hi - cleat:ooW; ; but if they did not, they werw said to be thrown out, and became the 'derision of the wholi field. —He accused the Emperor of Russia of having guaranteed the Constitution of Spain, which he now wished to destroy. At one time the Emperor of Russia was altogether liberal, and had a great de sire for Constitutions until he got the Duchy of War saw ; but now be found fault with all Constitutions. The objections made by Russia, Prissia, and Aus tria, to the Spanish Constitution, were nothing else than that these people, who have no Chambers at all, sai4 to the Spaniards, you have only one Cham ber, why have you not two ? It was something like' an hussar at Verona, telling the Noble Duke, that he rode a very awkward horse. The Noble Duke, with his usual good nature might say—" I have led armies in Spain, in India, dtc. and I thought I had been somewhat of a judge of a horse." But if a Venetian Nobleman, who never had ridden anything but gondola, had said—" I never saw such a horse," the Noble Duke would have told him, " get along, you impudent fellow, what do you know of a -horse?" and for all his good nature, he would hardly be able to keep from giving him a cut with his whip. He respected the veneration which the Spaniards had they'l to the Constitution, and their oath to maintain it. Spain had also men to defend her both in argu ment and with the sword. Among these stood M. San Miguel, a man of letters who only left his study to hi ing back that Ferdinand who condemned him to exile under the burning sun of Africa ; and now was recalled, by no grace of that Sovereign whom be was serving with all the splendid talents which HEAVEN had bestowed upon him. The Noble Lords were not for tear; but could they say that they were sure of peace? Ilad they heed of the capture of a Spanish by a French ship, in the West Indies? Would the Noble Earl now say that he was not aware of a Treaty between France and Russia, by which the latter agrees to 'furnish the former with troops and ships in the Mediterranean, and would lie then say that we were in no dread or danger of being involved in war? It was objected that the Spanish Revolu tion was brought about 'by force . ; but did that amiable person, King John, give Magna C'harta of his own free will and grace ?—(Neer, hear). The Noble Lords opposite seemed to wish to banish the phrase " balance of .power" from our vocabulary. Would the Noble Lord say that we had not now as much fear to apprehend from Spain being in posses sion of France as formerly ? or bad they forgotten that this country, since the reign of Elizabeth, was, never so near annihilation as from the combined fleets of France and Spain, during the American war?— He thought it a strange and preposterous notion that this country could not assist Spain but by a large army, and the Noble Duke at the head oft ? Was a fleet in the Mediterranean nothing ; or were subsidies nothing ? He believed Mr. Pitt was sincere in his wish for neutrality in 1792 ; but in a year or two af ter he became the leader of a crusade to restore these very Bourbons to the Throne of France. The failure of our negociations and the loss of the great and glo. rious opportunity of protecting the weak against the strong, made him vote for the Address. Lord GRANVILLE was satisfied that his Majes ty's Ministers, in the late negotiations, had taken that course which was best fitted to maintain the ho nour, and farther the best interests of this country. He ably defended the policy which they had pre ferred, and moved an Amendment, declaring the conduct of Ministers in thi late negociation to meet with the entire concurrence and approbation of that House, as it embodied the judicious application of those principles which it had been the policy of this Country to maintain ; to acknowledge with gratitude the unceasing efforts of his Majesty to prevent war between France and Spain; to rejoice that his Ma-, jesty was no party to a war which did not appear to them necessary for the honour and interests of Ent land ; but at the same time assuring him of theW ready support whenever a war should be necessary' to maintain the dignity of the Crown, and the r i g ht s iand just interests of the nation. The Duke of BUCKINGHAM not only objected to the Address, but to the arguments in favour of it. It seemed to be the object of the two Noble Earls to. go to war with France-on account of Spain, and if the Address were carried that night, it would be pro per to put the-army and navy on an efficient footing for active service to-morrow. He defended the con duct-pursued by Government in the late negociations. At Verona, the path to be pursued by England was a straight forward one. Few instructions were wanted for the guidance of his Noble and Illustrious Friend, whO represented this country at the Congress. It was only necessary for us, standing on that high eminence to which former glorious exertions had raised' s, to warn other nations against a renewal of war, to declare it to be the intention of this country to remain neutral, but at the same time to make known our firm determination to sustain the cha racter, and assert, under all circumstances, the honour and true interests of England. Claiming the right to form an opinion of the Spanish Revolu tion for ourselves, we had no power to deny France the right of doing the same. How she had used that discretion was a perfectly distinct consideration..— The Noble Duke, adverting to the arguments re specting the balance of power„,cited the opinion of an illustrious Duke (Sussex) who had formerly dis cussed the subject. The importance to be attached to that political balance, must depend on the actual state of Europe; The balance of power at the pre sent day had a different meaning from that it bo re i n the reign of Louis XIV. In that reign Spain and the Indies - were in the scale. He could not. agree with those who thought there was causeof war. What co u ld be the objectnUwar? Would a war insure the ba lance of power ? What would become of Hanover ? Would it secure the East from falling into the hands of Russia? He felt neutralityyras necessary, and - his prayer was for the preservation of peace; but if the country was forced into .a war, heptityed to GOD, notwithstanding he might. meet with obloquy, that if we were to be forced to take the field, „it might not ' be to support the principles tben,,prevalene in Spain. He could not forget that the spirt ;Krevolution still existed to undermine and.reduce l that' *as regular in the moral establishments:of ' For thirty 'Years revolution had called qn.tliis otintry to spill her blood, which had flowed like. water. -The Noble Duke.expressed -a hope . that other countries might not be called uPteibitraritt support of revolutionary principles. The Duke of SUSSEI said, that at the &Al i Duke had alluded to him, he felt bound to state, tb 4r as 'he could not agree with the Noble Duke in th e views which he had taken of the balance of power or he could not coincide with the arguments which the Noble Duke had advanced; for he entertained no, uions directly contrary to those of the Noble Duke, , Lord KING contended that his Maje s ty' s Ministett had admitted that the Ministers of the Bourbons 4 France had mystified if not duped them, so that thier were now in a fool's paradise. For himself he .w o ul 4 say, that he had read the Papers laid before then Lordships with feelings of grief and astonishment, in them he had seen not one manly sentiment 4 vanced or supported. Great Britain now succumb e d to France ; and it seemed that the efforts of w o e; were never to be wholly successful ; for those IS nisters who had fancied that they had succeeded mid Dloriously in putting down one, n o w f oun d thro espots tyrannising over Europe, with %hot th e e dared not compete, and with whom they the re f or ; sought to side. The greatest efforts of human geni e , seemed to be contracted ; and such his Majestre Ministers found were the results of the grand pad, fication of Paris. - The Earl of ABERDEEN defended the conduct of Ministers in an able speech. Looking back to y , tions agitated within those walls during the lit twenty years, he could say, he never in his life a more conscientious vote than he should give , the motion of the Noble Lord. The Earl of DARNLEY did not doubt that Noble Duke had been actuated by the same h.roap. able feeling which had distinguished his illustr;- predecessor, the Duke of Marlborough. After fruits of his great victories, he was entitled to high language; and it must have been pai n f u l stand in the highest position. He really felt that me. nice might have been resorted to, in older to peeve the military occupation of Spain and . Portugal by France, which was at all times to be dreaded by this country. He should support the motion, on the ground that the line of policy pursued could not preserve peace. The Duke of WELLINGTON said, he could • suffer the debate to come to a conclusion making a few observations. He was obliged Noble Lord whobad expressed a hope that be able to make out his defence. He stood , the House not only as the Negotiator at Vernnt. as a Member of the Cabinet. He called on the Noble Lords to say explicitly whether they would have taken a neutral line or a line of war? The Noble Lords had not declared whether they would have de termined for war or peace. The Gosh:rumen had determined on neutrality, and he went to Verona m preserve the line of neutrality. On the queqiunf sentrality he went into conference with the Ministes of other Governments. He negotiated for t.eutra!' finder the instructions he received, and upon , alone he might rest his ease. He went to Verona, and in the Congress of Sovereigns and their Minh ters he used the arguments'which he thought bestfar the preservation of the peace of Europe. He had been blamed for not having acte d on a principlelaid down by the Marquis of Londonderry in 1821._ In point of fact;. the principle found in the paper left by the Marquii of Londonderry, never was li. mitted by the Allied Sovereigns. He was am seat . to insist on the principle in that paper, hat. ta, withstand all interference in the affairs of Spaia...—' The Noble Duke added, that he endeavoured to per.' snade the Ministers, from his knowledge of Spain, tae refrain from taking that course. It was said he halt been duped. He, no doubt, foresaw the possibility if war; but was he to insult the Sovereigns and their**. nisters by putting forth topics on which he knew diets ' was a difference of opinion? Ue was thankful tots Noble Lords for the pains they had taken to ins*. upon him the obligation he was under of coder fairly out of the investigation: lie should, how,* have felt more obliged to them if they had taken*" pains to pervert his conduct, and apply meaniay which they knew did not belong to it. They hada* that after he received instructions from Mr. Cassel to declare that his Majesty would not be ... partylie any interference in the affairs of Spain, he disobeys* that instruction. He might ask whether, at Ordeal he delivered his Note of the SO.h of October, dame was any endeavour by force toimenaceor to interim, with Spain ? When there was such an imeatieta r kg made a remonstrance, and declared his Majesty'riso tention not to be a patty to such interference. Tfis Noble Duke read the remonstrance, and said he con sidered himself acquitted, bec use his Majesty s Got.' vernment approved of the dec, He blamed for stating that the _ was justified in forming an Army Who could say, when there was a posite frontier, that it was not to assemble an army on her own should be found in fault upon which there coulC nion was most surprisini, guage held out at Verona, sidered it more manls Sovereign, to hold firm b. representations were made possible. On the subject founded upon a knowledge conciliatory measure peace of Spain. ModiL proposed, but the object in the Papers; He was merits. He world rel; was that the Noble Lords !ions of others, but ice' consider that the - object' ' the Spanish people to benefit. The House, view of the *hole case, whether there was anything 'duct. The Noble Duke • 'statement to be found in Earl GREY rose to though he despaired of , *infect of the policy adopted L e Noble Duke had asked; dlilid they mean War? the Noble Duke said no He would state distinctly tion. He would tell him, country was overlooked, th .A Minister should be prepared by representation, under the be Rohe; but if representation • 1 di mu fr bia TS reit 1)oi jaw The Spa their His that Spai repr shot he r 4 Ininii em" die p i fo t o j s lie conduits ck toques. the last s life gave i we against that the [e h. Tom% illustriode After the ed to me, not to t that me. to prevent rtugal by ed by thi s I . n, on the I could not could not without. ged to the he should Ind before' crone( but the Noble itild have he Noble I have de. mein had Verona to iieqiun of Nimbus: .eutrality 31)011 that Vera% f the declaration. He wit theis r that the French Govematit rep ng an Army of Obset. nor _ there was a civil war on.darep and was not competent for IWO' on her own frontier? nutio nit for having admitted a paint .....'"• 10 9 Id really be no diferenceof st* (sing. With respect to the 1* rona, he must say that bee* ly, as. the Representatireeta n but respectful language. • made as firm and cotilhfalli jest of mediation, his ledge of Spain, was, thareilee was necessary to fileill ea st v i sw it ificatioa in shoconsdth ct he had in view its ready to test his , cisie ly on the Papers, . ands would not adopt lock at the Pap". and . • the had in view Willi make a change toe eh% by taking a cahns.l4 ll4 o . 6 1, 00 tse, mold only. be AIe:SA se lything inconsisttnt i s : e wished to rest his cesireeW • • 4 in the Papers. o offer some oliserirst •• • f being-able to eolustcrill • 4 1: pted by his Majesty's . irked; did' they raestO4%. )1I To that distinct, p . o one had been able teatrissli .•lna nly his answer tsetuleirl: Ilitoar• him, when the' the country . wee IN ro lls prepared to meet or the detliekhat of :,;6;shiet. 814