Star. — London, England, 1822-04-02 00:00:00

WS" ,5 - "VIN _ allowed to the fislieriesia . • Scodand, in which of England did not participate. He had this to the Hon. Secretary of the Treastiry, it would be attended to. The Petition was ode* to be printed. AGRICULTIMAL DISTRIPM Mr. STUART WORTLEY rose to present Lion from the County of Linlithgow, sn complaining of Agricultural Distress, and. praying for relief. - There was one paragraph in the Petition which he would bring under the consideration of the House. The Petitioners did not pretend to find fault with taxation, they considered it as necessary for the support of the State—any relief which they could receive from a partial repeal of it would be but as a drop of water in the ocean. He would confess that their sentiments were in unison with his own. He did not wish to say anything harsh of the Bank of Eng- 1 land; but he felt that he was bound in that House to declare that its plans had mainly contributed to the distress of the country, by not reducing the rate of discount to 4 per cent. It was argued, that even if the Bank did lower their rate of interest, their exam ple might not be followed throughout the cbutitry ; but he considered it to be the duty of that body to act on public principles, and, in particular situations, to discount at a less rate than private individuals. The Bank was but the servant of the State. Why should it keep up the rate of interest higher than any other country in Europe? In Paris it was, at present, not 4 per cent. while our Bank Directors persisted in retaining it at .5 per cent. He admitted that, during the late war, the conduct of the Bank deserved the highest encomiums—it had given every assistance and support to our exertions; but he felt that, at this moment, it was unintentionally adding to the distress of the country, and injuring it to a con siderable extent. Mr. MANNING said, it would be extremely diffi cult for him to give any accurate statement un behalf of the Bank. As an individual Member of that House, he would give an opinion merely his own not an official one from that body, which he had the honour to be connected with. He never heard so unreasonable a charge as that of attributing the din ! tresses of the country to the Bank ; they were not-in: strumental to it, nor had they the power to relieve it. It was his opinion that the distress of the agricul tural interests was to be attributed solely to over-pro duction, and to the great quantity of land brought into cultivation within the last twenty years. The Bank had nothing to do with establishing the rate of interest, that was merely a Parliamentary question— it was one within the province of the Legislature alone, and not within theirs. They had to complain of imputations that were thrown out against them — of a cry in which even certain official persons had joined; but these charges were not founded in truth or in justice. Did they not lend the entire of their capital of 1:15,0(X/,000 to the country at 3 per cent? The question was not sufficiently understood. If the Bank Co morrow lowered the discount on commercial bills, he was assured that it would not give die sli.ght est facility to raising money on mortgage, or in any way give 'chef to the Gentlemen of landed property. Any man could borrow whatever sum he wanted on mortgage or landed security, at the rate of 4 per cent. trom private sources. It should be recollected that the Bank were hound by the Act of 1819, to pay in the current coin of the kingdom for every Bank note in circulation when demanded on the Ist of May next. They apprehendeJ most injurious con sequences to themselves and to public credit, from any attempt to force their paper into circulation at present. He was aware that money was abundant, there was no want of it for commercial purposes.— Any endeavour to force down the rate of interest would have the efFect of sending a great deal of our capital abroad. When once vested there it was not likely to be brought back again. It was evidently so slice the termination of the war. He knew, within the last week, of an instance of a sum of £300,000 being sold nut of our funds, and being vested in foreign securities. He begged distinctly to be under stood that he was not giving any official explanation on the part of the Bank, he was merely stating his own opinion on the subject as a Member of that House. The Bank Directors could not be influenced by the wishes of many . individuals, but he was convinced that, to any recommendation from the House of Com mons, they would..pay profound attention. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW said, that he would never abandon the measure he had so often brought for ward, that of repealing the Usury Laws. He never had heard any argument attempted on principle against their repeal ; its opponents always defended themselves on the ground that, at the present time, it was inexpedient. Mr. MANNING said, that he had been completely mistaken: he never meant to cast the slightest reflec tion either upon the Hon. Gentleman or his measure. Sir W. W. WYNN said, that he should be glad to hear that the interest upon mortgages was reduced to 4 per cent. He objected to the heavy tax on the transfer of mortgages. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that as he was not in the House when the Petition before it was presented, and as he did not hear the observations of all the speakers, he would not make any comment upon them. He was only anxious to answer the observation of the Lion. Bart. on his right band (Sir W. W. Wynn). His Majesty's Government did intend to afford that relief which the reduction of the stamp duties on the transfer of mortgages could give. It was his intention to !ming in a Dill, imme , sliately after the recess, to make the transfer of mort l i - gages valid on the payment merely of the deed stamp, and to repeal the stamp duties to which they had been subject before. Sir.T. LETHBRIDGE said, that the scheme of lending money to the parishes was extremely futile, and it would be inadequate to relieve the general distress. He considered that no one could for a mo ment entertain the idea that the sufferings of the agri cultural classes were attributable to the Dank. The l Bank and the country were mutually indebted to each other; and it was needless to talk of obligations from either. The distress of the country was owing to far different causes. The country looked with much .interest to the Report of the Agricultural Committee, which was soon to be presented to the House, but he found that all, expectations from the result of the labours of that Committee would, un fortunately, be disappointed. Mt. DliNE'll: (of Wiltshire) was of opinion, that . to , accounts, vent. He would state this as a dot to be qt.. cloned, whether standing i n House or at a County Meeting. ,What, he ask, must be.the situa tion of a country in which the cultivators of the soil were in so deplorable a state? Had this ever before occurred, either in England or in any other country, of which we had any notion? He contended That the very reverse was what the people of England had a right to expect. With abundant resources, and with their industry unrelated, they naturally had a right to look for quite a different state of things.— How dreadful must that situation be, which, if not remedied, must convulse the whole frame of society, and drag down the Nobility and Gentry from the important station they occupied. For the last two or three years, landlords were living on the capital of their tenants ; and, wherever he turned his eyes, he beheld nothing but ruin on every side. But, were he called upon to state what he considered to be the origin of the evil, he should say, that the sole cause of it was the operation of destructive measures on the money of the country. Had it not been for this, we `should now be in a state of prosperity unequalled at any former period. With respect to Essex, the county he had the honour to represent, the agriculturists there were in a state of distress not to be described. On former occasions, it had devolved upon him to present to the House several Petitions from that re spectable body, but now they had resolved not to petition at all, and reigned themselves to despair, seeing that no relief was to be found in the quarter where they were best entitled to apply for it. How long, he would ask, was this calamitous depression to continue ? The evil first commenced in the year' 1797: and, as the Act then passed was a breach of faith with all creditors, so the Act passed in 1819 was a breach of faith with all debtors—(Near, hear). 'He maintained, that the disastrous effects which re salted from the measures of 1819, called loudly upon the House to take the earliest opportunity of re suming the consideration of the subject. Sir E. HARVEY agreed entirely with his Honour ble Colleague, as to the extremely distressed state of the agriculturists of Essex. It was very true that they had given themselves up to despair, and he had not this year been entrusted with any Petitions from them. The assertion was perfectly correct, that land lords were living on the capital of their tenants ; and nothing but ruin was visible in the general aspect of their affairs. Mr. HUSKISSON• deprecated a prolonged dis cussion upon subjects of such magnitude, at a time so vety unseasonable for taking them into due consi deration. He was not in the House at the time the question was first introduced, but it surprised him exceedingly to hear that his Hon. Friend, the Mem-' ber for Yorkshire, had attributed the distresses of the country to the c o nduct of the Bank, in not reducing their rate of interest. Ile would take another oppor tunity of entering more fully upon this subject ; how ever, he must now observe, that if the Bank of Eng land, in the exercise of a sound judgment, should come to the determination of lowering the rate of in. terest, itwould considerably relax the pressure of which so large a portion of the community at the present moment complained. When an Hon. Member, a Bank Direct r, said, that the Bank lent their entire capital of 1:13,000,000, at an interest of three per cent. he ought to have also %cited the advantages they derived from doing so; and if he (Mr. Huskis son) understood anything of what the Bank bad been instituted for, he should say, it was not so moth for the interest of a particular body of individuals, as for that of the Public at large, by affording them all pos sible facility in their pecuniary transactions. Mr. MONCK, without defending all the arrange ments of the Bank, must, however, say, that tney had a right to make the best use they could of their money. It appeared to him altogether absurd to say, that to lower the interest of money would have the effect of alleviating the existing distress. Either the price of corn must be raised, or the amount of the taxes must be reduced. There was nothing else that presented itself in the shape of a rational remedy for the evil. It must still go on, if one or the other event did not take place; yet the Exchequer would still grow rich in proportion as landlords became impo verished—(Hear, hear). Mr. 11USKISSDN, in explanation, disclaimed all right on the part of the House to interfere with the regulations of the Bank, in disposing of their money, while at the same time he reserved to himself the right of stating, as a Member of - Parliament, what ever lie thought might be advantageous to the inte rest of the Public. - Mr. PEAItSE contended that over-production was the cause of the distress. With respect to the rite of interest, it was always governed by the Funds. • The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table. .. K~--~~*-_ lOW 8° .4 subject J leaseposalbie hoped that there would be embly one feeling - upon a question which wits more calculated than any other to agitate the public mind. trusted the House, would have no other object in view than how .they could meet the question with the hest possible effect. Mr. BENNET thought that constant and repeated short discussions on the subject would be much bet ter than one regular debate, in which the Noble Mar quis might make a long speech, to be answered by another long speech from somebody else. Honour able Members on his side of the House desired to know what nostrum the Gentlemen up stairs had dis covered for the prevailing distress, and he did not see why that information should not on the present occasion be afforded. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY found that the Honourable Member was opposed to a general field day, and preferred partial discussions; but he (the Marquis of Londonderry) was decidedly of opinion that the question would be best introduced by a re gular ritotion. Mr. BENNET, in explanation, denied his having used the phrase field-day." • Mr. CALCRAFT said, it was probable that some discussion might take place ou the subject on Wed nesday next; and he therefore wished to know from the Noble Marquis if the discussion was to take place, on the subject matter of the Report, or if he meant to propose any measure as growing out of it? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY.—I mean to propose a practical measure growing out of the Report. Mr. TIERNEY deprecated the idea of sending forth the Report to the country, without an under standing in the first instance that it was to be the basis of iame ulterior proceeding, recommended by the Committee. _ _ The Marquis of LONDONDERRY.—My proposi tion will be in consequence of such recommendation. Lord A. HAMILTON perfectly understood why the Noble Marquis was averse to repeated discussions upon this subject ; for he formed one of a Ministry that had long acted against the Agricultural Interest. The House had the Report of the Agricultural Com mittee of last year, yet the Noble Marquis had not said whether he agreed in that Report or was opposed tq it. He WAS much surprised too, that the Chair man of the present Committee, who was also Chair man of the former one, gave no account of the Re port ; not giving the House to understand whether he regarded the labours of his brethren with feelings of despair or of hope. The usual course was to have the Report read, or if not, that at least some account should be given of it. The HQn. Member for Somer. setshire had very properly described within the walls of that House the distress as it was described outside of them ; but he was not a little surprised at the mo dified tone which the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Gooch) made use of on the subject when talking in his place, compared with his language elsewhere. For himself, he thought that matters were daily growing worse, and.the iundbolders had more interest in the success of the Report than they were aware of. It appeared to him, that long debates were rather cal culated to smother the question than to bring out the honest sentiments of Von. Members. Mr. GOOCH said, if the Noble Lord supposed ;hat he sat on that (the Ministerial) side of the House as a partisan, he (Mr. Gooch) disclaimed the imputa tion. He had seen the Noble Lord seated on the same side, and he would now tell him that he felt as strongly as any other man in the House on the subject of agricultural distress. He had not said that the distre►s was diminished ; on the contrary, he had said what he would now say over again, that it had con siderably increased. Lord A. HAMILTON explained. He disclaimed having applied theterm ge partisan" to his Hon. Friend. Mr. TIERNEY desired to ask the Hon. Member who had brought up the Report, if it met with his concurrence or not ; for the Hon. Member, it would be tecollected, had said that the Report of last year was in direct oppositiOn to his views? He would now put this categorical question to him—Did he, on the present occasion, present a Report with which he could say he felt satisfied? Mr. GOOCH declined answering his question ; and the motion for the further consideration of the Report on Monday 22d April was then agreed to. On the motion for its being printed, Mr. ELLICE, in the course of a few observations, expressed his hope that the measure, which in the course of his official duty the Noble Marquis would have to pro pose, might be of a nature to satisfy the wishes of the country.—The Report was ordered to be printed. /. . -. 408abiama in the lest Wit Witt, TO , whelheof our menthe tootinestal pos . East Indies, the island of Ceylon, t h e Hope, &c. with which so mat a m . 'triedca on by this country, to &tut the the Navigation Laws never applied: . If would look to our West India Cdlonier, ho* their continerce had befit practi: on, they would Ind that the rigid pri n . Navigation Acts was never west u p o n; Avert those Colonies was at that moment at free liberty to trade with other Colonies inother shi ps as well as in British vessels. The Right . Hon. Gm- Ileman then explained the application of the form er Acts,• particularly the Act of 1805, and the Act esta. bhshing free ports. Another branch of cemmerci with our Colonies relateeto the trade with the United States. All countries were at liberty to trade with our Colonies, and they, in return, to trade with them and the restrictions were imposed on the intercourse between the mother country and the colonies. During the existence of the former and the late wars, ve sse l s of the United States were permitted to trade with the Colonies. An Act had been passed, which made the island of Bermuda. a centrepot for the trade between our West India Colonies and the United States. That was the great market for all the commerce bets.. eea the United States and our Colonies. St. John's also made a free port. He had brought these Ft:ill under the consideration of the Committee, in m der to shew that the principle of the Navigaticn Laws had never been carrie.i into effect. If the rigid pain. ciple of these Acts had been enforced, the intercourse, which be 'hewed to have existed, could not be al lowed. There was nothing to prevent an American or any other ship from bringing her cargo of c )rn, rice, &c. to Bermuda—there was nothing in he Na. lligation Laws which prevented that. Any foreign ship might bring those a: titles into the free ports ti the Colonies. Although it was not allowed by the existing laws that an American or other,foreign ship should come directly to Jamaica, or any other of tLe West India islands, yet they were allowed so come with their cargo to the island of Bern:uda, and to have the goods carried thence to any other port. Th:lt being the state in which the intercourse was carried on under the existing lass s, he thought it would be better to allow the-direct intercourse at once—(Hear). Ville Committee looked to the nature of the trade as it was carried on, between the Colonies, they viou . .; find that they had departed from the spirit of Navigation Laws. The alteration, therefore, whic.l be meant to propose,• would not effect so great a change from the present practice as some Hon. Gen tlemen might have been induced to suppose. The first part of his plan was to repeal all the separate Acts which regulated the trade heretofore, and then to consolidate into a system all the laws which would in future regulate the intercourse. One of the Bills which be intended bringing in, would apply to the commercial intercourse between our North Amer kaa and West Indian Colonies and the United States of America. The other would apply to the intercourse between the former and Europe. He meant to allow that articles then permitted to be imported into the ports of Great Britain, might be imported in British or foreign ships into other ports of Europe to be named hereafter. He would, however, have those ships restricted and navigated as the law then re quired with regard to British ships. Under those re strictions, he would allow the importation into other ports in Europe of such articles as it was then legal to import into England. That art angement v. mild ap ply to the islands of America,. He would recommend to have foreign ships put on the same footing with Bri tish ships, for the consequence of a contrary course would be, that foreign Powers would put the same restrictions on British vessel.. One objection might be urged against the measure he was proposing, on the part of our North Americas Colonies. It was not right to overlook in that arrangement the claims of our North American Colonies to a regard for their in terests. A great deal was due to the. steadiness and fidelity of those Colonies to this country. Great con sideration was due to the firmness of their adherence to the mother country, and to the similarity of their laws and institutions. They were both governed by the same laws, formed by the same habits, spoke the same language, and had the same characteristic traits of feel ing.—lt was therefore but reasonable that they should 'be protected by imposing a certain duty on all ar ticles from other countries, which could be had from those colonies. It was but reasonable' to give them the benefit of a fair protecting duty. That duty, however, should be settled on a moderate scale. The object. of the old measure being to extend our foreign trade, it would he unreasonable to increase the scale of duties so as to annul the object which they had in view. That was the nature of the-measure which he meant to submit to the Committekr. *He hoped he had shewn, by a comparison with . the former laws, that the alteration which he was about to propose would not effect any great change. So far from the measure, in his opinion, being attended with any in jurious effect to the navigation of the country, he was quite confident both the navigation and com merce of the country would prosper by it. There was another point which it was right that Parliament should consider. No one could see hew long the co lonies of Spain and Portugal would be subject to their masters. They might cease, no matter whether dejure or de facto, to belong to the mother countries, and by the measure which he was going to propose, the trade with them would be established in foreign ships, as it would be with the Independent States of America. The trade with the Brazils and Cuba was I open to the whole world... It was wrong and unwise to allow free trade with the Brazils and Cuba, &c. but not to allow-it with the United States of America. That was an unwise and partial mode of regulatiog our interests with independent States. We ought fa look to. the 'policy adopted by other States towards their colonies, but particularly of Spain and Portugal towards the Brazils and Cuba, the trade with which was open to the whole world—(Hear, hear, hear). — If they permit a more unrestricted intercourse than formerly with their colonies, and if Great Britain ad hered rigidly and" pertinaciously to the system of exclusion, and did not put her colonies on the same footing of free intercourse, the effect would be most injurious to the interests of those colonies. Another point in which the question ought to be viewed, was 'that which regarded the slave trade. greatNotwithstand dious trade, yet most temptations countryooiy a had a d : i o lg c t o h r e ni m nu a e ny th at odious '':oust disintere:tetlly they were the first to abolish it, . • '' - . .. ....., 4007GovillramentAawatil:._ ale comity. - lift. MIT objected to that • , ~,,,,,/' • 'oar extensive a 'hid, those di file-per antic ' latlPPlialtritifeeducleg IftlialloWeird *ha ~iv. •, . . E ga t: the wi mentioned thetate ofintevest Or saspitties. . o f t he Jidie .. ) bad fizeliftfflec eat , .•-, . ..„," . in the and at* of the Eljalt? Fudd, and Vie coon- "rip inland. ',; - :e I. ,.. .• , • elf Good try'received &nu its vomiter' • . minis of LOIMMeittIIT , . to, ' seercrwas ca ,bIc..WESTER considered thatitheig who s e pr o. able to make such arrangements wierthe :' , ' . . principle of th . perry was embarked in nitritn MOTO now on nonrable Baronet as would allow the present vies- again they wo t ent a Peti. the brink of ruin. He believed two-thirds of lion to have the liteeedenee, as it was one of vital and confider 1 i Scotland , the founts of the County of .7 ' if now called importance to the country. The House would see calif carried ( Id preying upon to settle their accounts, w he found Jowl. that it was expedient to go into the consideration of ciple of the is • -_ __ ......e_ tie would state this as a fait fiat to be clues. the subject without -- the least -possible d elay upon and h a free li e Every one y of fng bertto RETORT OF THE AGRICULTURAL COMMITTEE. Mr. GOOCH brought up the Report of the Agri cultural ComMittee. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that it would be expedient not to read it, lest a garbled ac count of it might get abroad, which" would be highly prejudicial in an affair of so much importance. The document itself was very short, and mightbe Printed in a short time, so that it would be in the hattds of Members within forty-eight hours. Mr. ELLICE agreed with the Noble Marquis that it might be proper not to have it read, and he should be satisfied if it were placed in the bands of Honour able Members any time before Easter: Mr. cALCRAFT preferred also to have the Re port printed in the first instance. He must, however, ask the Honourable Member who brought it up, if he was instructed by the Committee to propose any specific measure in consequence? Mr. GOOCH replied that he had not been in structed to that effect ; however, the document would be iqa state to be placed in the hands of Members on Wednesday next, and they would then be enabled to form their opinion as to its merits. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY then moved that the Report be taken into h si consideration on Monday, the 22d April. COLONIAL TRADZ On the motion of Mr. F. ROBINSON, the House re solved itself into a Committee en the Colonial Acts. Mr. ROBINSON then rose and said, that in moving for a Committee of the whole House, he did not mean that any Member, by agreeing to his motion, should be pledged to the support of the measures which he meant to propose to them. Although he did not in tend any more at present than to move for leave to bring in a Bill, or rather two Bills, to regulate the trade with our foreign Colonies, yet he thought it was his duty to explain to the Committee the grounds on which he meant to introduce any alteration in the established system of colonial intercourse. He was afraid he should trespass further than he could wish on the indulgence of the Committee ; but still, as the question involved the nature of our commercial in tercourse with our foreign Colonies, he was of opi nion that Hon. Members should understand the laws which at present regulated that intercourse, because,' by the proper understanding of the existing laws, they would be the better prepared to enact new ones. The measure which he had in contemplation would not go to effect any material change, and he believed he would be able to sati►fy the Committee that the'altera• tion which he was about to propose involved a far less change than Gentlemen were led to apprehend. By the laws as they at present existed, the regulations of trade as far as they respected our American Colonies have been in a great measure evaded, or totally aban doned, and they never operated at all in respect to t „. 1, , I' li i :1 „ , ,~ ••• / ; 1 11 1 f I:' ; 51 m to it $1 vi .~ a Q