Star. — London, England, 1822-07-06 00:00:00

idler been influenced by one patty nor the etber.... is opinion was first formed upon the Report of the )mmissioners for inquiring into the state of ami cable Institutions. With regard to the system upon rich Private Bills were carried through both Houses Parliament and obtained the Royal Assent, if it were exposed and laid open, it would make those 'lusts themselves shudder at the injustice which is practised upon property, and fill the country Aith disgust. 'There was a practice of canvassing in Committees, carried to such an extent, that Gentle men were induced to do there upon questions in !ving the most extensive rights of property, what ley would not do in a jury box in a case of five pounds value. Unless Gentlemen entered Parliament, he had done, with a determination of having no- Aing to do with private Bills unless they were in ^reality of great public importance, they would be ire to find themselves drawn into these proceedings.l should certainly take an opportunity of bringing subject forward, and calling the uttention of the towards it. He did not mean to charge this any particular side of the House, it was cons to both. He opposed the Bill before the House, Jse he considered they had no power to apply property of Sir R. Cholmeley contrary to the ch reetion contained in his Will. He bad plainly tit. rected its application to the mainte n an c e of a school; id chapel-building and school-keeping were distinct ings. If the inhabitants of Highgate wanted a I Ipel, he should be quite ready to grant then a 11 authorising the usual mode of levying the mossy building one. Mr. WETHERELL supported the Bill, upon the - - and that the Chapel was originally intended use of the hamlet, and not to be confined to the aster and scholars of the school. Mr. N. CALVERT wished to know from the Hon. id Learned Member, whether the Chapel was used parochial purposes ? Mr. WETHERELL answered, that it was, and • marriages had always been solemnized there. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought the only legion could be as to the intention of Sir Roger tolmeley ' - and that was not one which ought to be ided by Parliament. It was a question of equity, ich the Court of Chancery should decide upon. . Mr. H. SUMNER was of opinion that the Hon Learned Gentleman who had alluded to the 'pro iings in private Bill business, would have done albeit more honour if he could have stated that he td given his time and his talents to enlighten Com :tees, so as to have prevented those injustices of iich he complained—(Hear, hear). He thought the 11 had better be withdrawn for the present. Mr. BYNG said, that he had been the partisan of ither of the parties out of doors who opposed and 'ported this Bill. He brought it forward because thought it was desired by the majority of his cod :uents. He contended that the Chapel had always, . considered as belonging to the inhabitants, and' it they had a just claim upon the property for such place of worship. Mr. WHITBREAD expressed his regret at being )liged to oppose the Bill in contradiction to the inion and advice of his Hon. Colleague. -Tits House then divided, when there appeared-- For the second reading - ES -Against it - ec Majority foe the BM —T Upon the re-admission of strangers into the gal :, Mr. BROUOJIAM was addressing the House. He stated that the decision to which the House had ,me upon this private Bill would not deter him au bringing the system before the House. He More gave notice, that he should do so when the came forward in its next stage. Mr. CALCRAFT said, that he must take leave to; Ike a few observations upon what he had heard ith so much surprise from his Hon. and Learned tiend. Before he had thought proper to enter into is tirade against the conduct of Members, he ought least to have given them the same credit which he rk to himself, when he declared his intention of toting against this Bill without reference to the parties smediately interested in it. It was quite possible it Members to vote upon private Bills, and to act Committees upon them without being influenced , improper motives, whatever might be the canvas- 1 king or means employed to influence them. He begged to assure his Hon. and Learned Friend that his vote had never been obtained by canvass. It ap :ared to him also that his Hon. and Learned Friend• tot having mixed in the private business of that douse at all was a reason why he should have known less about it than other Gentlemen, rather than that' le should be enabled to enlighten them upon the lbject—( Hear, hear). Yet he did not hesitate to ;harge those connected with that business with ne farious conduct and injustice. He should like to know whether the business which occupied the House last light was of a private or a public nature ?—(Hear, tear). He should be glad to know whether there was to canv assing for votes upon that question?—(Cheers). . He could tell his Hon. and Learned Friend that not withstanding his great talents and eloquence, it was not to the sarcasm and the wit which he displayed Ipon a former occasion, so much as to the canvassing which took place, that the majority was owing— '4Cheers). He could, if he chose, name a Gentleman who had made the strongest canvass for the vote which constituted that majority. It was very well for his Hon. and Learned Friend to disclaim private bill business ; but Gentlemen connected with the coun try must be engaged in it ; and until he detected some of the nefarious acts of which he had spoken, it would be better for his Hon. and Learned Friend not' to libel the House. as be had done upon the remit occasion —( Hear, hear). Mr. BROUGHAM hoped to be allowed to make !Ise or two remarks upon the most extraordinary at: tack which had just been made upon him. In what he had said, be had never meant to allude to his Ho. nourable Friend, whom he knew to be incapable of being influenced in his vote by any private canvass. As to the canvass in favour of the Measure which be brought forward last night, he had no participatiess in it whatever, and he supposed that his-Honourabki Friend did not mean to insinuate that he had. Tka Honourable and Learned Gentleman was proceeding to argue against the manner of transacting Ovate business, when— • Mr. H. SUMNER rose to order. He conceived the clatter of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman's speech to be wholly irrelevant to the gaieties dian before the House. Mr. CALCRAFT said s that his Hon. and Leame4 neither bee His opinior Commissiio ritable Insti which Priv; of Parliame were export Houses the was practis with disgur Committee! men were volving the they would pounds valt as he had d thing to d 'reality of E sure to find Me should the subject ouse tow, pon any p anon to bot because he the propert sett:ton con rected its a and chapel , things. If chapel, he Bill authori for building Mr. WE' ground tha the use of t aster and Mr. N. C and Learne for parochi. 11r. WE' that mania The AT'l question cc Cholmeley ; decided by which the ( Mr. H. S and Learne ceedings in himself ma had given rnittees, so which he cc Bill had he Mr. BY/ , neither of tl supported t he thought stituents. been consid that they It a place of Mr. W H obliged to 'opinion ant Tye House For th Upon thi lery, stated that come opot from briny ther4fore g Bill came 1 Mr. CA make a fe with so m Friend. this tirade at least to took to hi] voting agal • immediate for Memb4 in Commit' by improp sing or tr begged to his vote ht . peared to not havini House at less about he should subject—( charge thl farious co whether t 1 night was hear). He no canvas He could withstand 110 t to tl upon a fc which to (Cheers). who had which co his Hon. business ; try must some of I would Ist to libel t occasion. Mr. B Otte or ti tack whi he had s nourabli being in As to th brought in it whi Friend d Honour: to argue business, Mr. I- matter c speech tl before tl Mr. ( Prinethad pit somedlia him, be ividsed to live The SPEAKER k be irregular. and one prociva The Bill • aussrA Sir JAMES MACK ,gt wished _ _ ther any communication had been made to Govern ment respecting an Ukase issued by the Emperor of Russia some time since, as to the dominion of a part of the sea between the North West Coast of America and the North East Coast of Asia ? This document, as he understood, would materially interfere with the commerce of British subjects ; and, as several ships were now about to sail for that coast, he was desi rous of an answer. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, a com munication had been received by his Majesty's Go vernment from the Russian Government, of this Ukase, and no time bad been suffered to elapse without com municating to the Russian Ambassador that this Go vernment must protest against both the principles of dominion and of commerce laid down in that docu ment, and at the same time making the claim of Rus sia a subject of negotiation and investigation. - Sir J. MACKINTOSH said he had another ques don to put, relative to a report which had gone abroad as to the seizure and condemnation of a British vessel by the Spanish Government, on her passage to Buenos Ayres, dn the pretence that she had been guilty of a breach of the commercial regulations of the Spa nish Government? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he had no recollection of the circumstance alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman. If the Hon. Gentleman would fur nish him with the name of the vessel in question,. he would 'make inquiries. Dr. LUSHINGTON said, it was a vessel called the Lord Collingwood. He would, with permission of the Noble Lord, for ward the proceedings of con demnation to him. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, if the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would do so, he would make inquiry. DISTRESS IN IRELAND. Mr. BERNAL adverted to the distress in Ireland,' and hoped the House would not separate till some thing was done to remove that distress. Mr. GOULBURN said, that the last accounts from Ireland had been of an agreeable nature, and that by the money already given to provide employ ment for the poor, much digress had been removed. Mr. I). BROWN said, provisions had never been cheaper than at present in Ireland, and he could not see upon what principle provisions had been exported to a country where they were so plentiful. He was inclined to believe the distress had been exaggerated. Mr. V. FITZGERALD was surprised at the lan guage of his Right Hon. Friend. The fact men tioned by him was a proof of the magnitude of the distress, which prevailed to a great degree in the neighbourhood .f his Right Hoe. Friend. The dis tress, in fact, extended to one quarter of Ireland. It was from confidence in the assurances of Government that he had not brought the state of Ireland before the House. Sir J. NEWPORT said, that though provisions might exist, the wretched peasantry had not the means of buying them. Mr. VILLIERS bore testimony to the reality and magnitude of the distress in Ireland. Mr. ARBUTHNOT moved, that the House should go into the Committee of Supply. Lord BINNING moved, that the Petition from the Subscribers to the National Monument in Scotland, be referred to the same Committee. _ Mr. HUME objected to this reference. Sir R. WILSON said, the Petition proceeded upon an erroneous supposition, and could not be referred to the Committee of Supply. Mr. G. BENNET said, the Petitioners were rich enough to build a monument for themselves. Mr. H. GURNEY was adverse to grant public money for building a miserable imitation of the Par thenon at Athens. Mr. HUME stated, that he would divide the House. Lord BINNING said, he would withdraw the mo tion, and bring it on in the next Committee of Supply. On the motion being put t that the Speaker leave the Chair, Mr. WESTERN opposed the motion:as hehad.im portant Resolutions to propose to the House. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY would appeal tb the Hon. Member if he could bring forward a sub ject of so mach importance without notice, and for which both he (the Noble Lord) and the House were wholly unprepared? Mr. WESTERN stated that he had given notice of his intention to submit his Resolutions last Wed nesday. In the event of there being no House, it was but fair that the notices formerly siren should be brought forward in the order in which they stood. All he wanted was an early day. After some observations on the part of different Members, Tuesday was fixed for Mr. WUTZJIN'S Re solutions.--The House then went into the Committee. ~ -. Mt. HUMlleitilitied thattie --- Army Estraordi miss appeased this year in an improved shape. The expesees for Cenada were $54,737J. The revenue of Ceylon was 378.8121. The House had no cognizancel l of the revenues of the Colonies. The revenue of Malta arnounted to 1130,d00Land that of the Cape rO l 1161$1001. :The whole of these revenues were admi.l.l Wrested ‘by thelEing in Council. All these chore should .be sabmitted anaisally to the House, an placed to account. lie most mutest again* manner in which bills were drawn from the Caen' : and he intended to p r opO se th e a b o li t i o n o f C o l on in Agents. The First Commissioner of Woods and Fri rests, as Agent for Ceylon, ,bad a salary of 12001. and a Learned Gentleman (Mr. Courtenay) had 6001. as Agent for the Cape. The duty might be discharged, without any additional:expense, by the Commissariat. The duty of the Agent was to send out such articles as were required by the Colonial Government, and to make such payments as were necessary, to be 'amide in England. The Hon. Member then adverted to the system in' the lonian Islands. The Treasurer, who; had a revenue of 100,0001. to collect, had a salary of 7001. a year, and his assistant . lsol. The Agent for those Colonies had a salary of 5001. a year. There were eight Inspecting Of f icers of Militia, at salaries, in the total, of 25751. though there wawa° militia to inspect, as the islanders bad been disarmed. That sum he proposed to reduce, as well as the salaries of the Colonial Agents. In the first year of our possession of the Cape, the salary of the Governor had been 11161: while the salary now amounted to 10,0001. To one Se cretary was paid 35001. and to another 15001. and the latter was in possession ofanother office. All this expense was paid out of the pockets of the People of England. The Auditor of 116,0001. had a salary of 10001. and the Post Captain had 5004 a year. The accounts were, in fact, as long as a tailor's bill--(4 laugh).— He was confident two-thirds of the expense at the Cape might be saved. The case was the same at the IMauritius, where the revenue was 164,0001. which ought, in time of peace, to defray the expense of the colony. He could chew the loss of millions, from Officers having been sent out to the colonies without sufficient securities being taken. Re thought the Mi nister who had so acted, should be mulcted of his sa lary, till the loss was made good to the country.— There was a Collector at 15001. a year, with 2i per cent. on all he should collect • and he also had a De puty--(Haar). There had be en: a great outcry, and properly, about the salaries of a few clerks, while such enormous extravagance was unnoticed. He un derstood that the collectorship ofiamaica,worth many thousands a year, bad been given to a young man who had never before been in office. At Gibraltar the Civil Secretary to a Military Government hadlllool. a year, and a pension besides, after eight years ser vice. The Earl of Chatham, the Governor, bad WOOL a year; and General Don, the Lieutenant-Governor, had an equal sum. The Judge Advocate had a salary of 10001. a year. The expense of Sierra Leone was 60,0001. From the conclusion of the peace; till last year, when a reduction took place, the expense of Heligoland was from 10,0001. to 12,0001. a year.—. The total expense of the Colonies to the British Go vernment was two millions and a half-4Heer).— The Hon. Gentleman then requested the House to follow him to Nova Scotia, and animadverted in a similar manner on the expense of the Establishment in that Colony. Demerara and Berbice might sup port the whole of their Military Establishments, if so much expense had not been unnecessarily incurred by the creation of Civil Officers. With proper re, ductions, 500,0001. would suffice, instead of 700,0001. as called for by the Right Hon. Gentleman. In a future Session he should move that no grant be made from the Army Extraordinaries, for permanent of ,fices. He should like to know from the Chancellor of the Exchequer how 9001. came to be charged for managing a Dutch loan ? That sum had been paid to a Mr. Atkinson, though the transaction might have been managed without the smallest expense through the channel of the British Ambassader. The Hon. Member then went over the old ground of the charge of 600/. and odd for the carriage of Sir Thos. Maitland from the lonian Islands to Malta ; the Riding Establishments of the Cavalry, the Barracks, Staff Commissariats, /cc. icc. Scc. and urged again the necessity of having a separate estimate for every one of our establishments, civil and military, at home, and for every one of our Islands and caber Colonies. He reprobated the allowing Governors to levy taxes at their pleasnie in the Colonies, which was contrary to the spirit of the British Constitution. He then pro posed to reduce the Agent of the Cape 1:800; the Agent for Malta £600; the Agent for Ceylon £1200; the Agent for the Mauritius £5OO ; and the Agent for the lonian Islands £5OO. He did this to see whe ther die House was disposed to go with him in the work of reduction; and if he found it would not, it would be useless to move any farther reductions. Mr. BARHAM wished to know the Hon. Mem ber's meaning, as to the Government putting the Co. , Monies an a more liberal footing; and then they were willing to bear the expense of their. own establish. , ments? He knew many Colonies that could not sup port any such expense. Mr. HUME said, if the sums were not paid to un necessary or sinecure of f icers, the expenses of the co lonial troops might be paid by the Colonies themselves, This he knew to be particularly the case with Trini• dad, Demerara, and Barbie*. .. Mr. WILMOT said, it was most unfair to consider, the Colonies in a commercial sense only, without re. ference to political value. Out of the 364,0001. at the bottom of the Estimate, he could prove that the Honourable Gentleman bad only made a mistaken 366,9001. a sum which we received from the Colima% and which, of course, if we had not the Coloelea, Will should not receive. The..HnO• Member ;KM iota consideration the dearness of living iii V at reign Colonies, and that • tor the Agents there was no half-pay. Sir T. Maitland bad made . nal voyage in the lonian.islanis but with a legitimate politic 4 object. He denied . tint the incrodkktion Of the British conititudon Into most of the Cottages would be advantigtoiss to ;hem. The ago. manexclaimed against ate eipenshf Waded ' men in office , solflitiliPB li.ke a PerM ll l".4 l l4s4 P Waded Estimates - would not be divided. Mr. AILBIJTANOT complained 'drat Ole Chancel lor, of the Exchequer had been most grossly misre presented. The Right Hon. Gentleman ,wished. to take as unfavourable a view or the Reteliee, ks 'moving his Budget,' as possible. keen , that fur ther reduction would be Made' netr . Session. complaint of delay in bringing forward* these esti mates was unfair, for there tea mot beta, since the Easter recess, a single Order night that he had suit bonne dbwn prepared to open these Estimates, till it last he began to think his paper;•box would find f.'s vrty'ttii the House without him ever small the number of troops in' Canada, that stations was very great, and that required the Com missariat of that country to be snore extensive than it would otherwise have been. • . Colonel DAVIES said Government Made no 're duction until their conduct was exposed, and *wed forward to public view. Six R. WILSON objected to the pay of an Inspect* of Militia in the lonian Islands ; for there is no Militia there. By gainingthe lonian Islands, we got 09, of the most expensive acquisitions that had ever bee:Rib tamped ; and, if we did not give up those Islands Mon we should find them the sank of ' our wealth, and t h e grave of our honour. Mr. GOULBURN was ready to defend Sir T. Maitland's character from all the slanders that could be cast upon it. Mr. IL G. BENNET should wish to know the full extent of the duties and salaries of the Inspecting Field Officers of Militia? He had no doubt that all the Officers of our Colonies were much more paid than their duty (if they did any at all) could deserve. He complained that the system of abuse had goose much farther in the Mauritius than in any,other of our Colonies. He alluded to a person named Theo.; dore Hook, who had (said Mr. Bennet) robbed the Public to the amount of eight or 90001. He hoped to see Canada given up, with all her expenses, for he was sure it was not worth a single shot to save her. - Mr. GOULBURN would never consent to hear that a subject of Canada, or the rest of our Colonies, was not worth a single shot in his defence. All were entitled to our protection. Mr. HUSKISSON opposed the reduction. Mr. T. COURTNAY defended the office of Agent to the Colony of Ceylon, which, he said, was an Office of considerable importance. After a few words from Mr. T. WILSON, Mr. W. SMITH, Mr. A. C. GRANT, Mr. BROUGHAM, and Mr. Hume, the Committee divided.—For the Amend ment, 56-... Against it, 82—Majority, 27. The next Resolution was for 200,0001. for Extras of the Civil List. •Mr. BENNET said, this grant would cause con. aiderable discussion, and should not be taken at so late an hour. Mr. HUME said, this would be the only opportue pity be should have to propose cutting dowa the al. lowances of our Ambassadors. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said, he would postpone this vote, and propose out for the out-pensioners of Green ,wich.flospitaL Mr. BENNET, that is quite as objectionable. Mr.GOULBURN then proposed 296,4001. to rake good the deficiencies - of 1821.—Agreed to. 119.000 for Bt. Destiny I - Bufferers, Toulon Emigrants, Knights of Haim, for. Colonel DAVIES said, the Bourbons, being now restored, ought to provide for the emigrants. He objected to the grant to General Dumourtes, and to the Knights of Malta. He moved to reduce the grant by the sum of 42391. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER d♦ fended the grant to the French Officers, and to the Emigrants of Toulon, who had suffered for out ser vice, and not for that of the King of France. As to General Dumouriez, that disttnguished•Officer had no claim on the King of France ; he had been living for many years under our hospitable protection, and had attained the a ge of four-score years and upwards, and be was conv inced that he should not make an appeal to British generosity in vahr, iu favour of this aged veteran—( fear, hear). Colonel DAVIES withdrew his amendment, and the grant was agreed to. xsooo for the Refuge for the Destitute. . ,22.5,000 were then moved for the Caledonian Canal. Mr. HUME complained of this vote, on the ground that when 40,9001. was formerly proposed, with a statement that 15,0001. or 20,0001. more would be required, he proposed 60,0001. at once. This sum had -been voted now, end 25,000/. more were pro posed. If he was rightly informed, three times 25,0001. would yet be required. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, this sum would be sufficient to make the canal navi gable from sea to sea. Steam packets already traded ween Inverness and Fort Augustui. The canal would be of great service to the coasting trade. He could not answer that parts of the canal might not require further outlay. Mr. BROUGHAM gave credit to Ministers fin being as sick as they, upon his side were of the Cale donian Canal. Even the Right Hon. Gentleman most admit, that all their extravagant outlay would htt/e been thrown away, if not for the God-send of steam, the application of which was discovered afterwards...-. The vote was agreed to. £15,000 for the Works el Roesehatlee Harbour. 6,000 fee Purtpaulek Harbour. 12,000 for Ibrbour. 1,000 for et= hailsto for improvensentain Wes/abut.. 2,700 for the Bankrupts Commissioners' New Courts. Mr. BROUGHAM could not fail here urging the necessity of providing a temporary accommodation fir the Court of King's Bench and the Lout t of Chan cery, within the range of Westminster Hall. No per son, not in the profession, could form any idea of the inconvenience under which the Judges, Bar, an euditers no* laboured. A few hundred pounds worth; Poston d*old Courts in the Hall , till the sew Courts were erected, which he hoped would be commenced . r. . ITHlNcluxolt or the EXCHEQUER odd I • =Wile od the subject, sad lt bad been the 04 routs. 2!40!4 F ern rewOrds MiKti. ,ifir .ine, cuanuot bov(everonakt ripert fu a rth riogroses or latid,rl Al...d. • a obuisaa_ 2sisva. as.i. at Th u r r 4 .1 0.,wg .......... -.— ..- -...r. - I 1 *di m 4 the *Aped qtgation4l2 l6l o4lo44 . __,Mpm.edtlie should not enter iato 1114 ' tiat at Steam% who wet shout escialming. • that ,e hliii an —:(sir, 'brn , ', lik . the aciount wii " ° e the' bilnew a igen who would do lathe bass Oral 4- .. pronounced the converts: ilea •to Vonliaitutit; but be should be happy to answer out Chancellor otthe Exchequer for half a guinea li week. se which could not be adlowad to question, Auld to en, any explanmson necessary for Ile was authorized to say, that security was to %ire- wa s then' read a second time. the.satisfaction of Commttme. The light Hon. quired from every one of the_Colpnial Officers. He 11111111A11 MAUL Kantor cotialudej 'by moving a R e a a hr ' a109 , 6w was not prepa re d to say , t h at i n a f uture Session all :lEINTOSH 'wished to know whew hr 004004 fut . & Army EttraoyZinariez. - .. ' '_., the different E s tima tes would not be divided. _ •__ ._ _ 1 I_ - _1 - /1-__- Sl_ 111TWIL•Puft . - _ _ - . ARM? lITIAORDINAILIZII. Mr. ARBUTHNOT said the first Vote to which he should draw the attention of the Committee, was that which related to the Army Eztraordinaries. This Vote was originally confined to a statement of the bills drawn upon this country by our establishments lebroad; but he bad last Session promised that the accounts in future should be more detailed ; and he trusted the Committee would be of opinion that be had now redeemed his pledge. The sum actually expended last year under this head was 1,050,0004 A vote of a million only had been taken to meet it; but it was to be observed, that when that vote was ashthere 'vw a balance in hand applicable to ;his of the kpoditure of 170,00% After. some doslactions, the particultirs of which were given in the Estimates, it would be seen that there was a be. lance now in hand of 100,0001. For the service of peso* yeas he should not have occasion t o ca n for. so large a vote as that of the last Session, as he intended to move for only 700,0001. In the former Tow Wets included a sum of 200,0001. for each year, ;he loseiei Of the laist Company ; thengh this was always repaid by the Company, bat new arranged had been made, which rendered it en isecepary any longer to call, in the first instance, for this vote in the public It, followed, there for., that the actual reductioa in this year's vote was 100, - OQCO. but when thedifference of the balanctikwas taken irate cAlcelatiess, be was Wet eutidisito,4ll .. .