Star. — London, England, 1822-06-21 00:00:00

,-- lier --- - : ' • HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Amendments made by the Lords to the Navigation were agreed to. Mr. JAMES presented a Petition from certain individl ttatiog, that they had made scientific discoveries, but coold more the means of obtaining a reward for the exertion of th talents, in consequence of the expense of obtaining Patents.—Or• dered to lie on the table. On the motion of Mr. Witxost, the Caaada Trade Regulation Bill was read a first time, after a few words from Mr. ELL ice. Sir J A !.I ES MACKI NTOSH , said, this was a measure of rha first importance, involving the first principles which held the colonivs and the mother country together. Ile w.:s alarmed' at the idea of passing such a Bill at so advanced a period of the Session. Ile should oppose the passing t t the Bill during the present Session; though if it should prove to be a useful Bill, be wished it success. * Mr. WILMOT trusted that when the Ilonourable and Learned Member heard the peculiar circumstances under which the Rill was brought forward, he would not persist in his oppo sition-to k.—The Bill was theme c.dered to be read a second time to-morrow. On the motion of Mr. Asyrr.r., copies were ordered to be laid before the House of all proceedings taken by the East India Di rectors in consequence of a correspondence between them and :sir. Prendergast, respecting his claim on the Nabob of Oude. The Irish Deeds Registry Bill was read a first time. The C HANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that leave be given to' bring in a Bill to authorize the Courts of Chancery and Exchequer to regulate Contracts respecting the change of the Five to the Four per Cent. Stock. Mr. G REN FELL took this opportunity of asking what was the intention of Government respecting the proposed renewal of the Bank Charter? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that many communications had been had with the Bunk on the sub ject, but nothing definitive had been agreed upon. Mr. MA BELL LY thought that if the House went into a Committee to inquire into the mode of remunerating the Bank, half the expense at present incurred might be saved. Mr. ELLICE trusted the question of renewal would not be pressed upon the House this Session.—The motion was then agreed to. Mr. S. RICE moved for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate Elections for Cities and Counties in Ireland.—Agreed to. The Bakers' Regulation Bill was : read a third time and passed. The Fish Preservation Bill went through a Committee—Re- i port to be considered this day three months. The Sta , e Coach BM w e nt through a Committee, and the Bill was or deted? to be read a third time to-morrow. The Marquis of TICHFIELD presented a Petition from ;Mansfield, complaining of the effect of the present Laws re specting Hawkers and Pedlars.—Ordered to lie on the table. Sir T. ACLAND presented a Petition from Devonshire, praying for protecting Duties on the Impel - cation of foreign But ter.—Ordered to lie on the table. On the motion of the Cuaseuxou of the F.zorsousa the House whit into a Committee nn the Irish Taxes Act. The House bring in Committee, The CLi ANC F.LLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved cer tain Resolutions for Repealing the Hearth, Window, and other Taxes of Ireland, which were ag reed to. The House then resumed . — R eport to be received to-morrow. SCOTCH JURIES. Mr. KENNEDY rose to move the second reading of the Scotch Juries Regulation Bill. The measure, he said, had been characterized as uncalled for, un warrantable, and ill-advised, and he trusted therefore that the Learned Lord who opposed it would prove that the Bill deserved to be thus described. For his own part he thought it would be found de serving the grave consideration and sanction of the Howe. The opposition to it would, he thought, be founded upon an attachment to ancient institu tions, but he trusted nothing would be found in the principle of the Bill which very materially interfered with this laudable feeling. He ought to state to the house that the principal Criminal Court of S:otland was called the Court of Justiciary,which was divided into nine Cit cults, and they were held twice a-year. They tried all cases by Jury. But there were other Courts of subordinate jot isdietion, called the Sheriffs' Courts. The Sheriffs in Scotland had a Judicial as well as a Ministerial power. In the Supreme Court proceedings were instituted, ex ojicio, by a Lord Advocate, without the intervention of a Grand Jury. The Petty Jury was composed of fifteen, and ques tions were decided by the majority, so that a man might be condemned by eight of his Jury, though seven of them considered him innocent. The Juries were taken from Edinburgh and the adjoining Coun ties, and were, he believed, selected most conscien tiously by the present officer. The Sheriff of each County sent a list of forty-five Jurors to the officer, and from these forty-five were selected, from whom the Judge nominated the Jury. When this nomi nation took place in the Sheriff's Court he was the Returning Officer, Solicitor, Nominator, and Judge. The prisoner had no right of challenge in either of the Courts, unless he sheaved special cause, to be de. cided upon by the Judge. There was no provision against the effect of prejudice, infamy of character, or political rancour. The measure, boa ever, which he proposed, went only to deprive the Judge of the power of nomination, and to substitute a ballot; and also to give the prisoner a limited power of peremp tory challenge. He had abstained from pressing this measure on the consideration of Parliament while Scotland was agitated ; and he had hoped that his conduct on this occasion would have been considered free from blame. He bad, in the first instance, stated to the Learned Lord the heads of the Bill, and un derstood that there would be no objection to intro ducing them into a general measure. He did not mean to say that the Learned Lord had not a right to oppose the Bill, even notwithstanding this circum stance ; but the Learned Lord had issued a manifesto to the Scotch Counties, in contemplation of a Meet ing of those Counties, which took . place every April. The Honourable Member here referred to the mani festo disapproving of the Bill, and submitting it for the consideration of the Counties.—This letter was addressed to each Sheriff, who was himself a judicial officer, and a party to the question. The consequence was, that many Petitions were presented to the House against the Bill. These Petitions, in general, echoed the tone of the Learned Lord's manifesto. The bur then of each Petition was, the excellence of the cri minal law of Scotland. He respected that laW ; because he wished to correct a slight blemish in it,' he did not think it was fair to accuse him of a desire to undermine it—(Hear,nhear).—The same sort of argument was offeied • against the Bill for ex tending the treason law to Scotland. It was con tended that this Bill was in contravention- of the Articles of Union ; but he would not waste the time of the Ilouse in opposing . such an argument— (lfear).—The lion. Member, after some other ob servations in support of the Bill; proceeded: to state several instances of abuse under the existing sys tem, of allowing Scot Judges to name the Jury. In paiticular, he referred to a conviction obtained against one of the Earls of Argyle, which was after wards declared void by the Scottish Parliament, and to another case which occurred about five or six .s ago, wherein a Sheriff, newly entered into of- Led named a Jury in exact compliance with the LIP 41 'ear: Lice, _ pain—he .. Scotland—(!Wear, hear)--conducted, he admitted, with great honour and impartiality. In the course of that trial, however, circumstances were .elicited, which he thought it necessary to state to the Hotise. It appeared, from a letter which was produCeJ, that a Judge of the Court in which the trio ) took place, had been consulted on the subject leadirig to the un happy affair which was the subject of the trial— (Hear, hear). —With great propriety this Judge kept away from the trial, a circumstance which shewed that lie considered he was disqualified by his own conduct to sit as Judge on that occasion. Yet, bad the trial taken place at one of the Circuits, it . might have been before that very Judge, who on that occa sion would have had the nomination of the Jury to try the accused—(Cheers from the Opposition).—He alluded to this trial with considerable reluctance ; but he stated this, among other circumstances, in answer to the triumphant vauntings which had been thrown out, to state any abuses under the present sys tem. The measure which he proposed to remedy the law on- this subject gave the prisoner an equal right to peremptory challenge with the prosecutor, to the extent of two each. He must beg the attention ofl the House to the distinction between the decision of the Scotch Jury and the English Jury—the latter delivering an unanimous verdict, and the former Bgiving their decision by majority —( Hear , hear). — y this regulation, that extent of discussion which was so salutary in the case of a Jury consulting on their verdict was in all cases abridged, by as much as the majority fell short of the whole number. Be sides whi ( - , the verdict being frequently determined by a ca ing vote, it was plain that the life of a man might e voted away by his known and avowed enemy-A-Wear, hear). --It was also too much matter of notoriety hotv and by whom every individual Jury was to be constituted. He was satisfied of the im perfect manner in which he had explained this matter; but he hoped he might look forward to this measure as laying the foundation of a complete revision of the Criminal Law of Scotland. The Honourable Mem ber concluded by moving the second reading of the Scotch Juries Bill. The LORD ADVOCATE observed, that it was a good maxim in jurisprudence to make no alteration in established systems not pointed out by defects in practice. That House had acted upon the maxim on a late motion, to allow Counsel to prisoners tried for, their lives; and he hoped the Members of this coun try would allow the Scots people to have the benefit of the same practice. That the provisions of the Ho nourable Member's Bill were not called for by the people of Scotland, he was convinced, and the House had seen nothing to induce it to think otherwise.— He certainly had requested the Hon. Member to wait till such time as the votes of the people could be col lected, and for that purpose he had written the cir cular quoted by the Hon. Member. He was thesmore persuaded to take that course from complaints having been made, that measures passed that House relative to Scotland, of which that country had heard nothing till passed; and in sending the Bill to them, he cer tainly was bound to communicate his opinion, al though he had no desire of influencing them. The Gentlemen of Scotland were averse from this charge, both on its own account and from its connection with the criminal law of the country. He maintained 1114 the system of criminal law in Scotland was as fault less as that of any country. The spirit of it was to check the progress of clime, and deal mercifully with criminals under trial ; and the difference in the amount of crime, under that system, between Eng land and Scotland, were as 235 to 18 in favour of the latter. He had listened with great attention to the instances of abuse in the nomination of Juries de. tailed by the Hon. Gentleman; but he did not think, anything he had stated would warrant the alteration proposed by this measure. With respect to the case of misconduct alluded to by the Hon. Gentleman, in a certain Sheriff, all that he could say was, that if he would inform him of the individual, he should be dealt with by the law. With regard to the allusion of the Hon. Gentleman to the conduct of an indivi dual Judge in a late trial, he must observe, that not being able to see what connection it could have with the question of nominating Juries, he did not think it was in very good taste to introduce the mention of it. That honourable individual was closely allied to the object of the trial, and there was nothing extraordinary in his having given the advice it appeared he had given, and there was no reason to suppose that he would have acted with less delicacy had the trial occurred in his own district. The Hon. and Learned Gentle. man proceeded to take a review of the mode of select ing Juries in Scotland. He did not see there was any necessity for giving the prisoner the right of peremp tory challenge, since there never was a case in which the suggestion of Counsel, relative to any Juror, was not attended to by the Judges. He did not think it necessary further to detain the House in stating his objections to this measure. He rested his opposition principally on the absence of any alleged evils in practice, and the wishes of the people of Scotland being against any such change. Thus nn evil could be shewn in favour of the measure, and the general opinion was against it—(Cheers). Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, that it appeared that the Learned Lord had three objections to the measure of his Hon. Friend. The first was, that the measure was theoretic; the second, that no evils had been shewn to exist to call for it ; and the third, that the people of Scotland were not favourable to the change ; at the same time that he went nn to say that they were actually averse from it. It was rather tit.. traordinary that these very objections were urged its former times against the measute for abolishing herit ,able jurisdictions, a Bill of Lord Hardwicke s, and one of the wisest and most salutary measures ever passed. Lord Hardwicke, in his memorable speech on that occasion, said that there had been no fault in the persons exercising the power; but that. men were mortal, and good men might be followed by bad, and that though men were mortal, the Govern ment ought to be framed to be immortal. These were the great conceptions, and the majestic and dig nified language of that great man; and he begged the Learned Lord to observe, that he there specifically admitted a theoretic evil as sufficient to legislate .g upon tht louse to consit objections- to which went to stamp Lord Hardwicke as a visionary and a theorist, might not have some thing in it worthy of their attention and support?— The first Law Officer of the Crown in Scotland had raised the standard of revolt against this amendment of law, and the Scotch Counties rallied round it.— Bat the wishes of the people had been treated as undue prejudices in 1747—they were treated in the same way in 1-819; but, in 1822, the feelings and opinions of the people were to be regarded with paramount reverence ; because, forsooth, a Lord Advocate had advertised for dissent, and Govern ment opposed the amendment—(Hear, hear, hear). — Could anything be more important than the posses sion by a nation of a perfect theoretic system of jury trial ? The Learned Lord's opposition to peremp tory challenges would never he hoped be allowed to stand against the reasons of Blackstone in favour of it. It was neither visionary nor theoretic that a man whose impartiality as a•Judge was impeached would become, though not so before, the enemy of him who so impeached him. It Was a maxim of common sense and experience ; and he appealed to the hu manity, the conscience, and sense of justice of his audience, nat to permit the possibility of a man be ing sent into a jury box, the mortal enemy df him he was going to try--(Hear, hear).—His Ron. Friend's measure demanded no more than four pe remptory challenges to be divided between the pro. secutor and the prisoner. A right of challenge for cause was known to be a right of little or no value, whilst peremptory challenge was known to be an invaluable privilege. What was the use of detecting a false witness—what was the use of producing testi mony to innocence, if it were addressed to the deaf' ears of a corrupt and inimical Jury ?—(Hear, hear). — Unanimity in a Jury was the most merciful principle of jurisprudence admitted into the Criminal Code of any country, and one which particularly protected prisoners in Engljnd. He was surprised that the Learned Lord could not see the connection between the case alluded to by his Hon. Friend and the question before them relative to the nomination of Juries. The I I letter had been detected in the case in question, but was it not plain that it might happen in many cases undetected ; and could they permit the possibility of a connection such as this between the brother of a person connecte.l with a duel, and the individual to take his trial for the unfortunate result of it?— This Judge, they would understand, had the trial taken place at a particular part of the country, would I have had to summon the Jury. He could not pass without remark the fantastic phrase used by the Learned Lord in that allusion. He meant the ex pression " good taste," which, however applicable and excellent when used in . reference to the lighter ornaments of the arts and literature, appeared to him to be out of place, and looked like treating such grave subjects with a want of that proper dignity and re spect, which judicial questions, involving the lives and liberties of their fellow-creatures demanded. He con sidered those who composed Scotch Juries to boast, in many respects, the highest character of any set of men in Europe ; but if he wanted them to try a ques tion between a Lord Advocate and an Opposition Member of Parliament, he must desire to have a right of peremptory challenge—(A laugh). To this Insti tution, which taught obedience at the same time it inculcated independence, be traced that great sense of justice, and that perception of law, which rendered the English the most honourable among the nations of the globe (Hear)--which taught the meanest sub• ject to know generally the nature and extent of his duties and his rights— " While e'en the peasant boasts these rights to scan, " And learns to venerate himself as man!" (Hear). If he was right in this estimation of the ad vantages which Trial by Jury conferred on the people of England, he could not but believe that the moral, brave, and pious peoplenf:Scotland were equally en titled to participate at least in thole advantages— (Hear). The sentiments of humanity and honour, which this Institution was found to diffuse among men, were conspicuous even in times when civil com motions had unhappily broken out among them ; for the horrors and evils of intestine discord were least experienced in countries where Trial by Jury was re tained. It was upon these grounds, and in the belief that some small extension of the principle of selecting Juries must prove highly advantageous to. the na tional character and happiness of Scotland, that he would support the second reading of the Bill. Lord BINNING felt that he was rising under con siderable difficulties, as wells from the view which he took of the question, as from his following the eloquent ' address to which the House had just listened. He thought the encomiums which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had passed upon the,Gentry of Scotland partook of such a sneering character, that he protested against it, and he *was quite sure that they would not wish to have any one who spoke of them in such a manner for their advocate. He believed_ the Gentry of-Scotland to be as capable of forming an impartial ar.d enlightened judgment upon any question relating to their country, as any set of men in the world— (Hear, hear, hear). —A Gentleman cried' Hear, hear !' who knew nothing whatever about Scotland—(A laugh).—The imputation cast upon them, and upon his Hon. and Learned Friend, the Lord Advocate, were without cause. It had been insinuated that a Learned Judge (Lord Meadowbank) had mixed him self up with a late unfortunate transaction, and inca pacitated himself thereby from sitting on the Bench. What was the fact ? The late Sir Alexander Bos well, wishing to settle his worYdly affairs, in the agitation of the moment, applied to his Lordship, as an old friend ; his Lordship, however, put as speedy an end to the conversation as possible, and remindeJ Sir Alexander Boswell of his situation as -a Judge.— With respect to his not appearing' n the trial, his in timate ftiend had fallen by the hand of his relation, and in such an unhappy case the feelings of his Lordship would not allow him to. be. present. The Noble Lord next adverted to the Bill: he could not approve of it, particularly . at the present time. He ' knew mot where innovations were to stop. He under stood the Hon. Member for the City of Durham was another champion who was anxious to enter the field 3-0 laugh )- 1 of Grand Juries , for one, would Judge to the syt. the fair and irn. was one of tho.e who thought that if they did not deserve the power of selecting Juries, they could 'not with safety be e n . trusted with any power or disCretion whatever. He thought the measure, howevtt it might be conceiled, was an indi,ect attack upon the. Judges. This was a question deeply interesting to the people of Scotland, and he was sorry to end such completely empty benches, ana that the English Members had paid so little attention to their duties in that 'House—(N ear hear).—There wits no end to theories of this ki n d, and innovations on the law of Scotland were 'out pre ludes to innovations on the law of England—(C r i ca of Question, Question I) Mr. HORACE' TWISS approved of the clause for giving peiemptoiy Challenges, and he was in.favour of the Bill, not because it was calculated .to lead to other changes, but because it had no clause, no co. riAlary, which could contemplate or lead to any other change—(llear, hear).—The list of witnesses and the, aid of Counsel, which were stated by the Noble Lord to be granted to prisoners in Scotland, would be more useful if the prisoner had, by means of chal lenge, such a Jury as would be ca d able of receiving an impression from them—(Hear, Ilear).—ln. Eng land prosecutions were generally carried on by. pri vate individuals, although in the name of the Kiug ; but in Scotland they were always conducted not only in the King's name, but also by the King's officers. The whole weight of the prosecution so carried on by the Crown was apt to discourage and intimidate a person ; and it was most material for the ends of justice, as the Honourable Mover of the Bill cited from Mr. Justice Blackstone, that a prisoner should not be discouraged froin making his defence—Wear). It was natural to suppose the Judges would appoint Juries as conformable as possible to their own h ill, and in that case the trial was solely by the Judge, without any check by a Jury—( Hear,hear).—What would be the opinion in England of a trial by the Jury free from any controul by the Judge? In Scot land the trial was by the Judge, without any check by the Jury. That was apt to influence the public opinion in Scotland as to the fairness of the trials in many cases. The public opinion ought to be con sulted. He (Mr. Horace Twiss) would mai ntain, that it were better that ten unjust acquittai take place than one unjust ccnviction—(Hear, hear). The Hon. Member concluded by stating his intention to vote for the Bill. Mr. PEEL said that, upon one of the objects of the Bill, namely, a change in the mode of selecting the Juries, he entertained a doubt; and thinking that benefit might be derived from the second object, he should not oppose the second reading of the . Bill— (Hear). In the Committee, it would be in power to propose some alterations in the details of the Bill. The Bill was then read the second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday next. BUTTER TRADE. The Order of the Day for the House resolving into a Committee on the Butter Trade Acts, being mad, Sir, N. C.•COLTHUILST moved, that the House should go into a Committee on the Irish Butter Trade Acts; and in doing so, he regretted that Ministers had not attended, among others; to this distressed branch of agricultural produce. He did not look at this as an Irish question, but as one affecting Eng land, because it would throw large tracks of pasturage ground into cultivation,.and so increase the importa tion of Irish grain into this country. To prevent this, he should propose a duty of 10 per cent. on the im portation of Dutch and other foreign butters. Mr. GURNEY would concur in any measure for the relief of the peasants y of Ireland, but he would submit to no tax imposed for the purpose of allowing the Irish landlords to keep up their exorbitant rents. Mr. ROBINSON was not inclined to acquiesce in the motion of the Hon. Baronet. If we did not take some of the productions from foreign nations, we could not expect them to take from us any of our articles of manufacture. Sir J. NEWPORT denied that Ireland had received any boo'ns from this country. If they did not protect Irish products how could they expect that Ireland could contribute to the exigencies of the State' Mr. RICARDO said, they were daily assailed by producers, that they had not protection enough. This was the case with Irish butter, tallow, the West India and Shipping Interests, while the poor consumer was left out of the question. He opposed the motion. Mr. S. RICE said, that though Irish butter was imported into this country in large quantities, yet it was lying to spoil in the warehouses in Ireland; and when Dutch butter was making its way into all the inland markets of England, he would ask if they had protection enough for the butter trade? Mr. T. WILSON considered the protecting duties as high enough ; and he must also say, that Ireland hid been negligent of her own interest, inasmuch as they had neglected to study the palates Of their cus tomers, the Dutch butter being so far superior to Irish. These reasons induced him to oppose the motion. Mr. WESTERN supported the motion. He was convinced, if we took this butter from Ireland, whichi we were so anxious to have from foreigners, we should experience great advantage from it, as they would End the consumption ofour manufactures'greatlyincreasc , t. Mr. HUSKISSON opposed the Bill. He was satis fied there was great distress in Ireland, and should b , t disposed to support the motion if he thought it would do good for Ireland, but he was convinced it wod!.l not. The effect would be, not to increase the con sumption, but raise the price of a bad article, and :orn pel the Public to find a substitute. Mr. HUTCHINSON was decidedly in fayout or the motion. Mr. isIONCK could not consent to sacrifice the constmer to the interest of the grower. Mr. GRIFFITHS was in favour of protecting du ' ties. The Irish butters, he contended, were in gene ' ral of the best quality. Sir T. ACL AND claimed, on the part of the sm dairy farmers in England, some consideration.' Mr.V. FITZGERALD opposed the motion; which • was put, and negatived without a division. • The Alehouse Licensing Bill was recommitted. Mr. hIONCK wished the Bill to pass, as it would put an er to monopoly. After wine observations front Mr. F. PALSIZR CA others, thJ . -: ,- •#; 0 . • ?IF •, 17,71 7 7•77 1 1F 1 ' 11 " 1 - 72 11 110 r iu ker • • • . . . . .. . . - . • , . e iL m .l of — era i n el d afg J h u ) ries . •. . . . I'L...— suggestion of °lle of the offic ers of his Court. in cot- tiPti• • But the very opposition Ode ttothgetill by to revise tlf of Scotland...Dlr. M. A. e_Hilititakett I T:t wa in.: a p . — ropoled " The t y p c i e n rta graft inly th :*: y n st t sequence of whips the accused was cdnfiictest...The .the Jacobites of 1747, was, tbat the pePplarif It; on .the Institutions - of - Scotland ; he, for one, would Big latter case he was ready to prove at the Bar of the 'land did not %tot it;, Lord Hardwick* goisiek' House, if necessity, though at -present het would not by in silent contempt, not deigning it thanmilliesent ji. g'ot mention the names of the !individuals connected with of an answer; but it was strange that the Lord Ad- pr ef er t h e se l ect i on o f J urors b y a J u d ge to the sI s. • t h A r 'it. He now came to a *case to which h* alluded with vocate of the T or y Gove r nment of 1822 should steal tern by ballot. He could not fear the fair an d n f —or- considerable pain—he meant tha t of a late t rial in his ar g ument from such a,so,trce. Now, he called partial conduct o the Judges.: He was one of t h e.e #2..,..1.,..t___# r.t.nr_ APari—conducted. he admitted, upon the House to consider whether a Bill, the only . who thought that if they did, not deserve the power T i t