Star. — London, England, 1823-06-27 00:00:00

the sh e , iff' of Dublin, when Mr. Macnamara acknow ledged that he hachon one occasion applied to a Sub 7 s her iff to pack a Jury for him, and offered him a b r ibe to do so: that he did not g,et the Jury packed, the Sub-Sheriff saying it was impossible he could do it, th e panne] having gone up to the Castle. The Sheriff did not say he could not do it without a breach of d or y, nor did he express any indignation at such an Orr being made to him. Ile only said he could not do it because the panne] was gone up to the Castle. .The Sheriff did not get the bribe because he did not do what he was to have done for it. Another grievaoce Iv that the King's writ did not always run. 'Lie H o n. Gentleman then referred to the evidence of an attorney,. examined on the 23d of June, before a C o mmittee of the house, stating that the difficulty o f t eeovering debts was the great cause why Engli .1) capital was not employed in Ireland. The same w i tn ess also stated, that debts were more easily e -orerable from the poor than the rich, as the for .ther could not pay the Sheriff for his forbearance in th e issuing of writ. He availed himself of the pri west of Parliament in noticing the conduct of a .Dodge, who ought never to mix with the politics of " n ay, as it necessarily affected his impartiality. The Judge he alluded to was Lord Norbury, and be spoke of him with the same freedom as of an attorney or Sub•Sheriff—(Hear, hear, hear). A proposal had been made to that lodge from Mr. &min, which no man svould have d..red to make to an English Jude. Mr. Sausin had never denied the letter, and Lord Norbury had never produced the answer. The request was, that the Judge should job orn the Chcitit, he being desired to talk in private wi th the Country Gentlemen in the course of the Circuit, and to hold out to them that in the event of the Catholic question being carried, all the Irish Members would be Catholics, and the Judges and the Sheriffs would be chosen from the Catholics, and the Protestants would be thrust into the back ground.— That was the conduct recommended to the Chief Jus tice by the Attorney-General. The Hon. Gentleman nut referred to an extract from a Dublin paper, - and which was headed—" Lord No: bury's newest joke !" border to introduce that joke what had the Learned Lord in question done? Refused a Rule, which was is England so much a matter of course, that no in stance of fefesal by any Court in this country could befeund upon record—se much dearer to him was bis joke than his justice. Here the Honourable and Learned Gentleman read the article he had alluded to, which we subjoin : _ I remember when, if the words were addressed to me, I ibstald not have been at a loss in supplying an inuendo. The' Oran has certainly a somewhat gladiatorial sound. No man nriacts or loves the Bar more than I do; but great allowance 1, to be made fur the chivalrous propensities of men of the sword. They do not, as Hamlet says in the play, ' set their lives at a I pin's 03 the other hand, the Gentlemen of the Bar have I nlyigrance to the arrest of that fell Serjeant, Dvath.' From which profession the immortal Bard drew his illustration I shall hare to the commentators. Cedant artno togee' is good Latin, sad good law ; but I am a friend to conciliation, and shall give s irianiph to neither partY—(Langhter).—l mean nu allusion.' I —He (Mr. Brougham) respected the Bench only while it respected itself, and when he sa w ribaldry and polities on the Bench, not only was his reverence: gone, but his patience was quite exhausted—j Hear, hear!). The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded ro animadvert m the Civil Bill System, and the Revetrue Board, which called loudly for reformation. The day of reckoning will come. Hitherto Ireland had been in lime of war a means of strength to the enemy, and in peace a source of wcaknetts to .this country. A genial climate and a fertile soil hail been of no ad vantage to that unfortunaze country, ft um the mis government of men. Things could not remain as they were, they must either become bkter, or they would become feat fully worse. If he erred, he erred with the Laws of Nature and the Decrees of PROVIDSNCY.. It was the worst of policy to . drive six millions to de spair. The case could not be met by the same flimsy pretences as before. Bonaparte, and the venerable Monarch whose scruples were professed to be re spected, bad paid the debt of nature, and neither fear of the one, nor reverence for the other, could be pleaded in bar of the Catholic rights. Ik would re commend for once, to prefer the hearts of Ireland to the applause of the Orange Lodges—( Hear, hear ! ) If promises did so much, when the King visited Ire-1 land, what would .the pet formance itself effect? He bad discharged his duty and freed himself from a tremendous responsibility.—Should the House turn a deaf ear to the prayer of the Petition, he firmly believed there would neither be peace for Ireland, mr safety for England- 7 (Loud and repealed cheering). Thekion. Gentleman concluded by moving, that the Petition of the Catholics be referred to the Grand Committee of Courts of Ju,tice. Mr. GOULBI,IO said, that the lion. Gentleman discussed ,the subject as if the Petition had ;oaken the opinion of the people of Ireland. From that idea he wholly differed. The Petition did not leaVeither the opinion Of the people of Ireland, or tf the majority of the Catholics themielves. What would the Hon. Gentleman have said, had a similar charge been brought against the Catholics of Ireland freer the tonduct of a few individuals? Would not *Hon. Member have expressed the most marked npnbation of such a proceeding ? The . Petition haft in mere generalities, without any specifica- 1 ihs of facts—(Cheers). Upon such statements no, public institution, no private character could be hie. He fully admitted the importance, that jus tice should be purely administered ; but it was of equal importance that the Courts of Justice should sot be made the subject of obloquy—(llear, hear). --In the present case a mode of proceeding was de manded that had not been recurred to for 100 years. ?he Hon. Gentleman had asserted, that the law was latcqual between Protestant and Catholic, send that dot administration of that law was corrupt. It was: tar Parliament to decide whether the laws between Ate Catholics and Protestants in Ireland should be equal; nor w as it in the power of the Judges to do *hat Parliament had•refused. He admitted that ex- . 9 3 ,Ples cotild be found of Magistrates being ,either Pins or over zealous in .he discharge of their , Lit the present was not the time for bringing. 7 1 tacd such a charge, when partial reformatioti had-, befit already made, and was in progress towards "%Illation. The task had been a most arduous one; !cud tv calculased to give rise to invidious remarks. rt Ul 4 "grits vi deuseiits of the individuals had oaft. the sole ground of selection or deprivation ; and 1 diuinetkit hid been made between the friends or r_u_ifs of the Catholics. There was not one county " r4a4 drial wiliith reformation hadnot taken place, more or less complete, as to Justices of the Peace.' It had been made a charge arinst the Government of Ireland, th at Si r Harcourt' Lees had not been struck out of the list of Justices. What would the Horse think of be accuracy of, the Honourable Geialemaii's information, when they %Vele informed, that Sir 11. Lee, wa, not in the Commission of the Peace in any county of Ireland ?—(lf r, keerr).- 11 , -: Lad made every inquiry into the conduct of the siscriffs in Ireland, who alleged corruption was so popular a topic bete, and he bad been unable tc find any !melt case. Ha should only say, that whenever such a case should be brought under the notice of Government, it should assuredly be visited by con puni.hment. It' the Honourable Gentleman would point Out any cases of corruption, he could assure him the strictest inquiry should be made. He had for the first time heard that night, that the She:if of Dublin received money fur notsumcnoning wealthy individuals on Juries. All he could say on the sudden was, that, from the papers on .the table, it appeared that the mast respectable and wealthy inhabitants in Dublin had i'een summoned on Grand Juries. On tine subject of the Bench, he could only say, that, with the exception of the single Judge, whom the 1 - lon. Gentleman named, the other eleven were, in his (Mr. Goulburn's) opinion, wholly free from blame. 'The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had alluded to a particular charge to a Gi and Jury, made by •a learned and venerable Judge (Fletcher) in the year ISM A charge containing similar sentiments had been represented to be made by the same Judge in 1;:1 1 ; and when he returned to Dublin from the Circuit, be was asked whether the sentiments put for ward in the statement printed in the Newspapers were in reality his own opinions? Ile replied that' they were not, and that on the contrary the state ment was at variance with the opinions he entertained. If, therefore, such a misrepresentation could be made at one time, and upon the same subject, there was at least some doubt as to the correctness of the charge pr hoed in 1814. With regard to the corruption in Juries, the Criminal Petitions to the Lord Lieutenant prevented any iii effects from arising on that account. The Government investigated the whole cases over again, and decided upon their merits as to whether the Jury had done its duty or not. But the Hon. Gentleman said that corruption was not confined to the administration of criminal justice, but had also crept into the management of civil cases, so that a Roman Catholic could not obtain any imp irtial deci sion. Against this charge he had not only the evidence of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, but that of the Petitioners themselves. When he heard that the Ca tholics were dissatisfied with the decisions upon the Circuits, he had looked to see what was the propor tion of' motions for new trials in Ireland and England. But then it would be said that the same objection existed in the Court of King's Bench as in all others. They were all Protestant Judges, and ,therefore no just or honest decisions could be expected. But he had in his hand a speech of Mr. O'Connell's, in which he eulogized all the Judges of the Court of King's Bench, and held them up to the world as bright ex amples of learning and honesty. Upon examining this subject, he fistula that in the last year there were thirty-two motions for new trials in Ireland, and in England, for the same 'period, 114. It was impos sible for any one to say that this proportion sheaved any distrust in the administration of civil justice upon the Circuits. He should not pretend to compete with the lion. Gentleman in declamation, and in ap pealing to the passions of the House; because if he had the power of doing so, this was not a case in .shich he should exercise it. He desired only to meet with facts, that which had no facts to support it. The House was called upon to take this most important step upon the testimony of those who were the com mon depositaries of all Roman Catholic grievances.— Against it they had the testimony of the Marquis We llesley, of the Attornay-General, of the Solicitor-Ge acrid, and of himself. That of the two last would, of course, be suspected by those Hon. Gentlemen oppo site, who thought that no one who entertained hosti-, lity towards granting all that the Catholics asked,.l could conscientiously discharge a public duty. But there had been at least nothing in the conduct-of the Marquis Wellesley, since his residence in Ireland, which could induce any one to suppose that he had not au equal care.for the interests of alt classes, and an ar dent desire to preserve an equal administration of the laws. He was confident that Parliament would not consent to a measure which went to vilify every, Member of the Irish Government—every honourable character in the land—merely because there were persons weak or wicked enough to suppose that upon their assertion only the House would be ready to take such a course. Sir H. PARNELL could state some facts 'to the Right Hon. Gentleman, of which he believed him not to be aware. He then referred to some witnesses before the Committee on the Usury Laws, who had stated the cause of the reluctance of capitalists to vest money in Ireland to he the difficulty of procuring the Sheriffs' writs. He had been informed that Judge Fietcher's charge was published and edited by himself in 1814.. Ile believed that a great deal of abuse pre vailed among the inferior Law Officers in Ireland. He had known a practice among the Sub-Sheriffs to put a magis name on the list of Jurymen if he did not pay him :is. This was not a general and random charge made by the• Catholics against the institutions of Ireland. They did not complain of the Court of King's iiench or Common Pleas, nor of the Judges or Sheriff s Courts. The complaint was speci fi cally Against the appointment of Juries by partizan She riffs, so that on political trials the Catholics could put no faith in the administration of justice. The corn ,plaint was l tbat when violent Protestants were brought to trial there were no convictions. Colonel BARRY said, if Government allowed a Parliament PfCatholics to assemble in the vicinity of, the Castle of .Dublin, they would deserve the bation of ever); honest man the toning. qz. .uch language was 44 forth, that 00,Q09 Orange.' men continued to massacre .theCitholics of Ireland,. Government would be insaae to .allow such ,an as sensbly. They had talked in. :their meeting that '20,000 men were nothing to Captain Roek's.&rce in one county. The .kiou.. and Learped- Gentleman had not stated any facts on which tp.fiimicl a motion.for .t reference to the Grand Committee of Justice. He held the whole language that had been used. as a iibel on the people of Ireland. quot4j the peti tipn,. wilco:. it At4ted that 4,he 4ible.was Atibzward, •• '~ - - a: recommending ind4criminate mwacre of the Ca. tholics by the Protestants. He maintained, that there never was a more inf . :VE . lons falsehood put torch,: est. cept in a Work - entitle" " The Orange System itn masked." Allusi9ir 4 0 4 been made to a charge said to have been ciolivered by iCIr. Justice Fletcher, but what would the . !rouse say, when he informed theM that he was the Foreman Ofthe Grand Jury-to whom it was pretertd#d- that charge was delivered-; and that, in subseqtrent.coevarsations with that u ne4 Judge be had agreed in opinion With him (Colonel Barry) that scarcely one sentence in' these pre ! tended charges liad ever been uttered by hint?— As long as men are men, there must be etrorswhere party differences and party spirit exist. The state of Ireland was now not far removed from rebellion,. and it should be put down by the, strong hand of power: fcr, without that, m easures o f conciliation would nei ther be a pallative nor a cure. He admitted fully, that there were mischievous publications on both sides.— He would, therefore,entrust the Government with more power to put down such publications and harangues. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON agreed that things could not go on as they were ; and that efficient tneaspres ought to be adopted, but not by fetterin the press. He would tell his Right Hon. Friend, that the as sembling of the Catholic Committee had been occa sioned by the rebellious opposition to the King's let ter of conciliation and his Government, in the person of Lord Wellesley, by that faction which insolently called itself the only loyal subjects iu Ireland. That faction was composed of men who goaded the people of Ireland to rebellion in 1798, and then did not put It down by the strong hand of power, Exit attempted to continue that rebellion by every species of perse cution and cruelty—(Neer, hear). He wished to have no angry debates or discussions in Ireland, and that they should leave the care of that country to the King's Government and the Parliament, from which he had no doubt the greatest good would result.— The violent language used h the Catholic debate% by Mr. O'Gorman, if true, arose from the mat! publica tion of Sir Harcourt Lees, wit's had sounded the charge to the Protestants of Ireland, and though a respectable man otherwise, yei on tuatters of religion he was perfectly absurd. He wished to do justice to his country, and he would not allow her to be called a nation of barbarians. The people of Ireland had a right to stand high in the estimation of. Parliament. They had behaved as well in thefield, and were as capable of fulfilling every other duty, as the proud Britons, Welchmen, or Scotchmen. He thought that his Honourable and Learned Friend hal laid suffi cient grounds for referring the Petition to.the Grind Committee of Justice. As the Catholics had had emancipation held out to them to consent to the Union with this country, and faith in that respect had not been kept with them, he hoped they would at least receive their Petition. At a time t% hen no man could answer for the peace of Europe for ten days together, he wished Ministers to take the advice of a decided political enemy, " unite the empire at home, and you are invincible abroad." Mr. ABERCRONI BY said, the question which the House had now to consider was, whether, in the present state of Ireland, it was likely justice in her subordinate parts could be fairly administered? It should be recollected, that the greater portion of the Magistracy of Ireland were at present Protestants, whilst the greater part of the population were Ca tholics; and was it likely, that whilst Orange Asso ciations remained, and whilst the present system ex isted, that justice would be duly administered ?— There was a point still remaining which bad not been touched, namely, this, that the facts which had been stated had not been contradicted ; especially the letter written by the late Attorney -General of Ire land to Lord Norbury. He thought, though no spe cific facts were stated in the Petition, still a general case was made out, which called for consideration, and therefore he should su,pport the motion. Mr. 11. MARTIN was convinced, that if the Peti tioners had sent a brief to the Hon. and L?arned Gentleman for his opinion on their Petition, he would ' have advised them not to have presented it. It was so inflammatory, so devoid of all argument and all reasoning, that the Hon. and Learned Gentle6san, in his emphatic tcne, would have said to these Peti tioners, the House of Commons was not to be bullied. He (Mr. Martin) thought it was impossible to have a better Magistracy than at present existed in Ireland. With regard to the charge of Judge Fletcher that had been alluded to, he could inform the House, that he had spoken to all the other Judges on that subject,' and they had uniformly given it as their opinion, that the delivery of that charge ought to have removed Judge Fletcher from the Bench, of whom it might be said, nothing became him so much as his death. Mr. PEEL assured the House that he intended to confine himself to the subject. Out of eighty-fotit days the House had devoted to business, forty-nine had been applied to Irish business. This was at kast a strong ground for confining himself to the subject. The question was, whether the House ought to ap point a Committee to inquire into the Administration of Justice? such a proceeding had not been adopted doting the last century. What was the cause for such enquiry. He had too muchrespect for the Catholics of Ireland to suppose they were the authors of this in• flammatory and ferocious statement. The charges against the Protestants, and the Corporation of Dab lin were scandalous. A Committee of that House was then sitting on the affairs of the Corporation of Dublin, and he entreated the House. to suspend their judgment until the Report was received. This decla mato; y statement was in the style of a condemned tia gedy rather than a statement of facts. He (Mr. Peel) felt bound to defend the Protestant population of Dublin. The Hon. Member for Cork had, in the most manly way, denied on every occasion that Protestants, had endeavoured to injure their Roman Catholic bxethm. The complaint was that the Sub,ShecilL bad not done their duty in executing the King's writ.' This was a' grievance if it were trite, but he denied *at it affected the Roman Cathojics. The Petition; eatne from an association called the Catholic. Asso ciation, vdaciabout ten years ago published st general. which it was declared that • Proteitaut murderers tvere protected and cherished for th e 'alma. A case was added, in svhich an innocent CA. Arlyglic : was desptibodto have. Ixen . pzecnted. and that bellied professing his innocence. On.the appearance of the statement a.prusecution naa cticninenced for a libel. It appeared by the re s ort ,of the Lefined Sedge who tried , the man, and theadtnisinm of the' . , , - prisoner's COunsel, that his reliion was not known: The Attorney-teneral to that hour did . not know the man's religion. 'The' Rightlionourblrle t..ntletean read the charge of Judge hleshe, and the defence made by the prisoner's Ctruntel, by which thelalse hood and malignity of' the libel seas clearly etia blished. The conSfirct of 'the Judges'was pule with respect to the appointment df Magistrates. Lord Manners would never attend to representations against Magistr..tes ‘ proceeding froth political feelitag.--.. Great difficulty attended the removal of Magistrates. In a late 'affray in the North of Ireland; • the troops were called out, lout the peopte exclaimed, " There is no Magistrate, don't mind the troops, they cannot fire." They preceedel to knock down the soldiers, who fired, and several lives were lost. A few .days before the Magistrate bad been removed by Lord Manners. That circurnst.orce was sufficient to shear the danger arising frrwn the'removal of Magistrates. The Right Hononrahle Gentl eman d e f en s the con duct of Major Sirr, against what he considered un just accusations. He had seen no reason for remov ing Major Sin from the Magistracy. With respect to Mr. Justice Fletchtm's charge, that Judge was dead, and consequently hi was prevented from making any remarks. on the,subject. He. bad in his posses sion Mr. Justice Fletcher's charge, and he should only say, it differed from the charge which had been publishel In his conclusion ahe Learned Jade said, " Until these Associations are put down in the North of Ireland, and the arms taken from tlagir hands, it will be in vain to look for peace." • Ile did not consider that part of the charge as at all re prehensible, mote especially as Judge Fletcher was speaking of the. North of Ireland, where disturb ances prevailed on the subject of illicit distillation. lie adverted to the letter ot Mr. Saurin, said to have been found by a Catholic Peiest. Could the House of Commons discuss such adocument? He regretted that any Catholic Priest could have been guilty of so much dishonour as not to return that letter to the owner. The use made of it could only tend to pro duce a breach between Protestant and Catholic. Mr. Saurin for fifteen 'years filled the of f ice of Attorney. General, and at the end of that time refused the offer of a Peerage, and the rank of Lord Chief Justice.— He was sorry the Honourable and Learned Gentle.. Man had felt it necessary, after what had already passed on that subject in a former Session, to refer again to this subject. The letter in question was a private one, written twelve years ago, by one pri vate individual to another, in confidence, and never intended for publication. This the Honourable Gen tleman appeared to have acknowledled, whcu the subject was formerly meationed, and then consented to la the subject drop ; and sorry he was, that after the lapse of a year—after the Hon. Gentleman bad all that time for reflection, and for his better feelings to get the better of politicalAyarmth.--sorry, indet;d, was he now to find that the Honourable Gentleman had again thought it necessary to bring it forward. The only remaining charge .agairst Lord Nor bury was, that that N. and Learned Lord had made a joke.' Now he certainly did not mean to say that it wrath' not be more desirable .that the business of the Coon should be carried on with solethnity ; but it was something hard to bring a serious charge against an able Judge, because he had, for a moment, forgotten the_solemnity of the Bench, and fallen into the error to which his countrymen were so subject, of displaying a brilliant wit, and making a good joke. Next, as to the Lord Chancellor, it appeared, that since he had held tha't situation no less than 2700 causes bad been decided, and out of that number he had had only I I judginents reversed. The Learned Gentleman had said, that one out of two of Lord .Manners's judgments had been rever sed; instead of which, it now appeared, that out of every two hun dred decrees, only one. had oeen reversed. Under all these circumstances, he never could consider this Petition as the Petition of the great body of the Ca tholics ; or that, if they had bad any grounds for pre ferring these charges, they would have contented themselves with bare assertion ; and, believing this Petition to be intended only for party purposes, be could not consent to found any Parliamentary pro ceedings upon it. Mr. BROUGHAM said, any one who had only heard the Hon. Secretary's speech must suppose that he (Mr. Brougham) had made a statement, on making the motion, wholly different from that which a part of his present audience had done him the hOnour to hear. He must thank the Hon. Member for Galway (Mr: Martin) for the jocose notice he took of his speech, which was the most successful piec:r of mi micry he had ever witnessed, and must congratu late the Right, Hon. Secretary, who, he believed was called - the Manager, for having so able a performer to close the Padiamentary season—(Great laughter). The Hon. Secretary said, the appeals from the Irish Court of Chancery were mistated on a former nithr, but his corrected statement proved that the propor tion reversed was correctly stated. He had also ex pressed his horror at making any allusion to Ali. 'Saurin's letter ; considering the treachery by which it Oust have been obtained, he said, in the climax pf his indignation, and it was impossible for conderu nation to go beyond it—it might hav:e been pro cured by bribing servants to rob their matters—aye, and their mistresses too (exclaimed Mr: Brougham, the House resounding with cries of Hear; .hearl. That House !radio its.possession agrees bag crammed with documents procured by such treachery prac tised against the Queen—(The cries of Hear, hcai! confirmed to resound).—How would the Honourable ietary, alter the feelings of horror he had et pressed at the treachery by which the nation was its sulted—he had Almost said, degraded, in the face pf the world—how could he sit in Council with any two of his caleagues who 'had countenanced the procur ing such documents, by ratans to which all common treachery was comparatively respectable—( Continua p i es of Hear).—The Honourable Gentleman, con chided by pressing the necessity of sending the,l!eti don to a Committee. Mr. HUTCHINSON rose to explain. He was proceeding to repeat the cobsctvarions of his former speech, when halos iptesrupteli by loud cries of " Chair, chair.! . The SPCAIiEIt said, that p Member was only rselOttkin explinatiou to correct any rn6represuntation of his net to repeartliote which be bad already uttened,Dietekt7 was then cleared for!, division, svhsu thexe . appea s ,4 Ayes • 59 Noes -. - 139 : Majority against the motion —so The Or ders of the Day were then disposed of ? an d the house at 21 . ' ' QUAITZE P - skt Two eiViocx. v , ,----