Star. — London, England, 1817-05-20 00:00:00

bind, so far from condemn!ng bow daces, s in tariou% to the public he considered it a matter of Vital importance to reta.ll them; and he observed, that it was right the Crown should have the means of rew .rding public services, in a way which even its own caprice could nor afterwards rectal. Those, he said, wh.. retired from the bustle of public life, sboul I be put berm , ' a precarious reliance on pole tieal friends—and. above all. beyond the opereiop of the inconstancy of Princely favour. The Committee bad discnvered but four classes of ipdividuali. coo taining 21 persons. wh.. were entitled tfr he rev arded for their services, by the Sovereign. He decidedly objected to the conclusion to which the Committer had co e, in thus contracting the power of the Crown in one of its most grateful departments. The trite ran of service was now the length of time dosing which °dice had been enjoyed. But looking to the the country, individ4als might be found, who had done more real public service in a short pe.. rind, than others had perfoimed in a long lapse of years. lit Ibis instance they were about in ask the Crown to give its assent to a Bill, which condemned the eartei4e of its free will and discretion, in granting rewar.ls dosing all time past He thought, with the pest States- an to whom he before alluded, that if, in compliment to popular clamour, they did away all incentive to honotirable ambition, no man knew what ialinite mischief they might inflict on the country through ail ages. As he was one of those who wish ed puhiic services to be properly rewarded, and as he desired to see public men, at the close of their politi cal life, honoured with some mark of the gratitude of their country, he could not, and he would not, give his support to any one of those Bills. Lord MILTON did on: intend to have troubled the House on the subject of this Bill, which, he thought was likely to pass without a dissenting voice—but it was impossible to hear the speech of the Honourable Gentleman over the way, aiJ not tc make a few observations in answer to it. The Ho. nourable Gentleman had misrepresented, from be ginning to end, the doctribes contained in the speech lie had quoted. It he (Lord Milton) were to blame the Conimime, it would be it:r net having taken that comprehensive view (.1 the question, which they ought to have done—(llear,lstar).--They had scraps, and shreds, and patches ) libm different s it terns, but they -had not iffy granCliiii conwreileasive principle. But, respect t 0 the • now before the House, they ,were capressff spoken of by Mr. Berke, whb, rlitilitnended the' u alierting r t the Crown Lands With two esceptioart. and observed, that, by this means, two Chief Justices iu Eyre would fall down.—(lisar, ilear).rhose very oacts were to be destroyed, by cutting away the inundation on which they rested. But the Ho. nourable Gentleman called on the House to preserve the Constitution in its integrity ; and. fur that pu rist-, they were askial to perpetuate those situations. Iney most, therefore, look to what the Chief Jus tices was ionised, in Eyre. and what they are now. They are not a part of die Constitution as at at pre sent tils(o. Mr. tiOSW ELL interrupted the Noble Lord. He consider J those offices as a part of a great whole— sad, dive re. he did not wish them to be removed Lord MILTON—AII these offices were originally laborious .o,cl efficient—they had ceased to be so— tory h. 44.1 become Sii.ecutes ; and, therefore, the Ho nourable Gentleman was wrong in describing them at forming part of the Constitution of the country.— Were ti . ey. it MSS asked, to yield to the senseless clamour of , the people ? He was not one if those who would yield to it. He might be termed an to 'liras aldose' to popular clamour. But he saw of wpm those who called for the abolition of those places, all the middling ranks of people—the main stay of the Country and of the Constitution —(llear, • h o a r ). He also saw amongst them the higher order of the people, out of that House—personvou a level with themselves. And he thought, that though they ought ' not to yield to senseless clamour, they ought to at tend to calm representations, coming from such quarters as those to which lie had alluded. To r;uote the words of Mr. Burke- 1, Goo . ft4bid that any power in this country should Istgap,able of resisting the well-founded voice of the people I" ( Thar, tier). A subject (the Noble Lord alluded to Parliamentary Reform) would come before the House to-morrow, which was more the object of popular clamour than that which was now under their consideration. The Honourable Gentleman bad dwelt on the impropriety of contracting the influence of the Crown. But when they were told that that influence met them at the turn of every street, was it not right that they should pare away some of that influence ? Had Mr. Burke lived in these times, and considered the additional in fluence which twenty-five years of war had given to the Crown, he would undoubtedly have carried his idea of contracting it much farther than he had done. The Bill was then read the second time, and or dried to be committed to-morrow. The Exchequer Offices (England and Ireland) Regulation Bill was also read a second time, and • ordered to be committed to-morrow. Sir JOHN NEWPORT— ,6 I have formerly stated that there existed a possibility of one or two of these Bills being taken by the other House along with the Compensation Bill, while probably the rest might be rejected. Ibe the House to attend to this pos.tibility." Lord CAS I'LEREAGH" The suggestion of the Right Honourable Baronet has not escaped the attention of his Majesty's Ministers, and I can assure him, str,tl assure the House, that every, precaution will be taken to render any apprehensions he may have on that head nugatory. I can state on the part of my colleagues arid toyielf, that we thought it better to put the business of the Committee into separat B 16, for the sake of gaining the object: ; and on Our part rto exertions shall be wanting to accomplish the great end they have in view t ,,,Aßfact, Sir, *fall t:-ought divided, are but oat grw . whole,We bracsug the same ecouumiekprtueople, md s co simnel Me must and shall support them all= Priv, • hear, hear, (rum ail parts of the house.) Ti.e Excsiequer Court Bill, the Offices in &idiot/ ' Repletion Bill, the ()dim in Ireland Abolition Bill, wen , seierally read a second tune, and ordered to be, comnristed to-morrow. S.r JOHN NEWPORT was' astonished, that in the - last %II no notice bad been taken of the liish Board or Worts. Mr. PEEL said, the Board of Works was ear— tautly inc.lsded within the scope of the recommends? V don of the Committee, and he was happy to inform he ni ts l i t IbinourAble Baronet that he had prepared a clause which he meant to prnpose for insertion in the Bill. Sir J. NEWPORT—. Then I am satisfied." To. Order rat Olt for reading the Compensa tion NI: Sir ROBERT HERON rose. He could not con sider this BM in any other light than a gross (but as he fondly trusted vain) attempt to impose on the peo ple of EnJand.- The offices which were proposed to be regulated were lett in the power of the Trea sury for regulttion, but when the House recollected the manner in which the Treasury had regulated offices formerly, as for example in the Civil List, there could be little doubt how they would act here. The abolition of offices was agreed on, but it was to take place only at the death of the person holding the place. He was ..bliged when alluding to thin. to differ from some of his friends for whom he had the sincerest respect, for he could not see on what grounds it could he maintained that because a man had for ten years held an office acknowledged on all hands to be useless, that therefore he should hold it for twenty years longer, and that because be had ob tained twenty thousand pounds of the public funds, should Obtain twenty or thirty thousand pounds more, especially at a time when we were on the eve 4 4 not being able to pay even what was due to justice.—.. It was worthy of notice here, that when t• e questiou of taking away the rights of the people by Suspen sion Acts was beflie the House, then 4 few days de- j lay was thotight too much, but when the question was, not of taking away individual rights, but of re storing things to their proper sources, then no delay was thought 'too limy, for it was better that the peo ple be diseprointeJ than sity:curists lose ; and theta fore the people must wait till the (dice holder, ex litre before they obtain relief, and that relief would perhaps come when many of those who 11./10 asked it were dead. The Bill for cDmpensating Use hotd:rs of offices 'was most likely to Ise abused, and indeed one would naturalty k at 1 - Ir this measure Minis ters. wished tn Oftivr . the c eople to say, "Give us back the system of sinecutel, but ktep thtt Compensation 1111 to yourselves;' and, in tact, no wu tderoor the Butt itself was hounded in fallacy. It was a new point, ttiat high offices should be a qiiestioti of pectins.ll . compensation. Formerly the offices of Teller's in the Exchequer were given to Lnrd Chancellors as a"ri-i ward fur their high services,' and sometimes to their sons, as in a case well known', but a 13111 had fieen latterly introduceJ and passed for granting pensions to them, thus reserving tile Tellerships as an object for political ambition and political intrigue. The people had been taught by demagogues to believe that their only remedy lay in the abolition of sine cures, atid Ministers were certainly much indebted to a certain orator in Palace-yard for such ill•foundeo harangues, as he hid done them by it the most essential service.—(flcar, hear, hear.)—Every ii,- deprnden: man in the country ts , ! ew cos to be the case. and here he could is help thinksti•• that the Committee had lent it se lf t oo n suc h to . the Niches of Ministers, and the 1-1 nese knew well what these wishes were. If there existed any d .uht of these wishes, he would only beg the House to contemplate the conduct of Ministers during this and ti e last Ses sion of Parliatnen.. In the last Session they put the word " Economy" into the Speech delivered from the Throne, which, perhaps, was one of the greatest possible insults that could be offered to the Illustrious Person exercising the functions of Realty, or a mockery to the people. Yes, while the pleasing words hung upon our ears, Ministers, who had thus insulted their Master and the Country, were detected in en deavouring to raise the salaries of offices. which had even been increased, and whenever any Measure of economy was proposed, it was always stoutly resisted. At last, however, in one instance popular feeling (even though it was stigmatized as o ignorant impa tience") prevailed, a*d awed by the retnonstrances of their own friends, who threatened to desert them unless they attended better to Economy, Ministers appointed a Finance Committee, which made three Reports, of which he had seen one (but from the specimen of which, •he could only say " much good may it do them"), and while the people expected, as they had a just right to do, that the Civil List 'and Household Expenses should be regulated, they were insulted by a new Officer being appoinied, and 0200,000 being annually added to that establishment. True it was, that that sum had been nearly expended in the Civil List &tore; but then, be it remembered, ' that it was drawn from iniquitous and illegal funds, the Droits of the Admiralty, which at once were a ' source of injustice to the nation and the prey of Royal ' piracy—(Lsrachurisszleore the Opposition Benches.)- ' A magnanimous Prince required nut the gaudy she* ' of mere appearances to make him respected in the ' eyes of his sobjects ; and it was, therefore, no more than just for the people to expect that some dimints lion should have taken place in the idle pageantry ' and chew of the Prince Regent—things which a great Prince always detested, who wished to live in the hearts of his people. Such savings would not, how ever, have suited the purposes of an Administration' j which ruled, as the present always had done, by cor ruption—(Hear, hoar, hare.) —He did not deny that • there had been much reduction in the Army, but it was absurd in the extreme to keep up such an army as the present in peace, merely fur the sake of our j Colonies, as was pretended. Surely there was no great necessity for robbing our Dutch allies of their ' Colonies, when we knew.such expense was required in keeping them. But the truth was this, that the ' people were goaded by excessive taxation, and began to murmur; and ther e fo re th e arm y w a s kept up, to act as supporters• to this system of terror—(Near, hear.) This might go on for a little, but it would soon be seen that England, familiarised to a m.litary I system, would lose her liberty, and sink into the aw tal gloom of despotism. He had toopelosize to the House for the patience with which they had • Iseerd him, especially as he was so little Accustomed to address them—(Hear, haw, Lan) • The Question was then loudly called for, and the `Gallery was cleared. During our exclusion no divi. 'ion took place, but we understood that several Speakers were beard on the question. 04 out return to the Galkry we touud Mr. BROUGHAM misting the principle of the Compensation Bill altogether, as one for which he could. not see the slightest possible necessity.. If a ca were made oat to Parliament to give compensa lion, dim s he for one, &clued be should be the best to sanction it. His objectionlo this Bill was. its sys..i been as distinguished for Ler Misters as f, r 1,, tematic and prospective nature in vesting this power glory in other respects. The Councils of the ew e h al of rewards in the Crown—giving the Crown a certain exhibited a race of hielemiodeel men we. bal -.erred annuity of £42,000 as an additien to the Pension Path intent, not as they would rarer a pr 1-‘sa ti, to List of the country. On this ground he decidedly catch at a hole paltry pelt, but who had b e n ac. • gave it his opposition. It had been justly set.% that i meted by a putter principle, by it Nye of their onetime this Bill was the first to contain the idea of politics in' and a wish to do it set vice; and who 10. k e d ee . t h e ; • England being rewarded as a trade ; and he would rrecnitipttice tb that - consciousness at due: 4 wei e e tweet his friends most seriously to scrutireze t . .e Bill; was cu: to be put in comp, titian: with Any r t .,, e , d • ineitsvnrious bearings before they Aniseed themselves which an Act of Parliament, such as th'a t ! ) ,.I, c to be undo] by the language of the other side of the' the House, could possibly bestow—( Hear, hear.)...., Heuse, which, in fact, was plausible only in sound, There lurked, thee - clot-is, in the argument of tee se:- but in fact gave infinite power to the Clown. The porters of the measure this gross baud (ler he woeja Crown had already the power of reseeding public I not cell it a fallacy) Ilia-public men Were to b e tree .. .- services, even although no Compensation Bill should ! tut! a s trader s in politi cs , an d the inference %Web if pass. The Craven had already the Pension L . st i of was thenc e soug ht to draw, Was. 1 1 :41 poWir ma England, Scotland, and !reline!. In 1809, though L: given to the Crown to co mp ensate t h ose se e n en - . in that year the four and a half per cent diit:es were tered into that trade, which, he emitended, whs a , low, the Pension List amounted te £222,0+1). Was fraud on the C one tit ut i oa an d on the Counter-. that Fund not sufficient ter rewarding public services? (Mar. hear.) But the pr'nciple of t hi s C mottos. Is the House would look a little to the way in which. lion Bill Was 001 that which it pretend e d t „ s e , i t that Pension Fund was applied, they would see it did not call forth persons into the public sersie:—is well worthy of attention. Oa this subject he was did not enable men in inferior circiimstence s to en. anxious to speak delicately, without the slightest in. gage in politics—it did n o t secure to them a C.. nen. t ntion of hurting any feelings, because on a subject moon for eo doing. He ad m i tte d t h at i t did drew of this kind, he was per s uaded, too much d e li cac y forth one Cl a ss of public men. B u t w h o were they ° could not be shewn. Yet in that List we beheld in. Was . the State served only by men in office? Did dividnals rewarded with pensions who had deans'. no man serve the country but Mtn who hid been sus i plished nothiug 111 behalf of their country and had years in office ? Did the man who give up his days I i done tier no service, but whose only merit was their and nights to his attendance i n tha t Hints. • d h ,an ho the e i connection with powerful families—families distill. studies necessary to make that ettendaree 'Amok, guis'ird by their titles, antiquity, and wealth—aye, cod. rno benetic on th- comunimity ? Then tedeed and by whit was a more powerful recommendatioe, served their country—the utheis ser ved tienselves. their uniform unabated s upp o rt of th e Mhistry, He saw surroundin g bins persons who had I 4 toi.ed lens whoever that Ministry might be— ( h r ear, hear).— and hard in the discharge of their duty ta the 'cuss. Such were the services for which pensions were be- try--who had on many occasions rendered it ve most st .wed, and be declared most solemnly while such essential service—but who, its the whole 'di their pole. was the Case he should never cease to oppose this deal lives had not been above twelve uanthsill , aber. grant ; for in fact what was th e House doing by this Was he to be told on that aCCollilf, th.o their lebouis grant of te12,000, but enabling Ministers to coati_ had not been eminently beneticiel to the puel e te., nue this system of gross misapplication. While a Was it to be established as a principle th it he only fund existed, it was absurd to grant the means of , was a public servant *lto held an office ? The great misapplying it still further. He observed the rumors business of Gevernment in this Calmly sv is carried of several Member) on the opposite side who fled on not behind desks and in Cabinets only, but in the pensions for meritorious services granted to them, great Council of the State. l'heie had been tn.ny which he thought was right. It was proper that pub,. instances in cur history —even dining thaw rer.,)th tic services should meet with a public reward, and no tthe 0_ Administration of Sir Rohurt Walpole, , f man who loved his country wan's' refuse public e re- Lord Nor th , tli, tat Mr. Pitt,-at sell cli their power wa s wards to public merit. It was s a id by th e iriessdawl, the iihas iiiiicoutrouled-ewhen the course taken by the Bill, that as so mu c h WAS t a k en f rom t h e Crown, McAfee; nilehine of the State was not wh, de the other means of computation ought to be vetoed so ree s tilt of iii! . torce impressed upon it by the Goren:- it. Another materiel member of the proposition7waes menl f .ltif kiitook hugely of the counterectine Ms however, wanting. It ought to be shewn, that that pulse of ilreir opponents. M an y b a d m easures had which was taken from th e C rown was a d a p te d to t h e been adcipted .ninwitlistanding that oppesition, bat purposes of compensation, which he denied. Ne many voile had been altogether presented. The writer who bad ever treated the subject had consi- effect which the efforts of those individuals who were dared the offices which were to be eiteneilied by the not ineoffce, had in modifying the measures pr pi,tid other Bills, in the view in which they were consi.:ered by those who were in oilise, no one could possibly by the Committee, AS compensations for public set- doubt ; end It estebiished his [pinion, t h at the sub. vice. Noinistg or tr.e laud had been understood pre. stantive Isosiness of Coves nreent was carried[ nin Par alt I ; Ilse y eas 181 1. Of late, the new doctrine liaMent. Here then was the iiiconsisteury of the EiII. had peen broached that a certain class of men, per- Under the pretence of c ailing forth generally the cur. swiss of great ability, but little private fortune, and tions of Statesmen, it only tended to call lied' thew not tot tined wit:[ greet homily connections, ought to ertions of those who vale devoted to Gov, rnment -1)- pressed into the et rvice of the State, ur at least It was Gue'that to the nature and capacity of 55:1 enabled to enter it; and that the sinecures about to individuals, the rewinds heed out by the Bill tice Ile abolished were necessary possession s of the Crown, pectiberly adapted. And yet office wanted no sec'i ei enable it to prevent the public from being depra ved charms. He appealed to the ,eperielice cat Ow Gen. by the poverty ut such persons, Irons benefinng denten opposite, and to the ebservetion of the Garle by their talents and services—(Hear, hear, hear).— men surrounding him, whether, in their time, at Last, Ellis he declared to be unfounded in reason and in ihere had been any tear of a scarcity of isitheisine:s practice. He would she* the House that none oi l ready to hold official situations? (4 laugls) —No:- die of f ices in question had been applied to this pre-a withstanding all that had been said of the II , :i value tended purpose. Let them look to the office of the of office, that it was hardly worth having, that it I,A Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports. That office was lost all its attractions, &c. he did not pticeivi. :thy tar from having been held by poor individuals, whom symptom of a lack of candidates fur it. 11 Icy cea it was necessary to support in their exertions to serve offer-a bouaty to persons to enter that House for the the public. In the middle of the last century, it was purpose of running an 'initial Career ?If dune—it the held by the Duke of Dorset, a man of eminent ca. patronage of the Crown must be strengthened for lents, but certainly not belonging to the class in clues. such an object, at 'rest let the object be called by if thin. His Grace held it up to 1765 a and was sec- plain name—let its real character be exethitee —l:t seeded by the Earl of Holdernesse, who also was not it at once be stated to be to enable po •r men to !•er• - .: one of that class. Lord North followed the Earl of the Crown. lit his opinion office was not a Slill.tti. , ll et Holdernesse, mid though unquestionably a man of a poor man ; who might more effectual') si: ve bit great ability, was not, certainly, a poor man ; for at countryhy continuing in his original and pro i xt spiel , ' that time he was heir apparent to a very wealthy fa- and periorMing the humble dun s which belonged to;' mily. Nord North was succeeded by Mr. .Pitt, and The aim of a StAttifliAil ShOL:1:1 be of 1 more rule Mr. Pitt, by the present possessor, the Earl of Liver- elw4e3cs: .;„ although t:.e Gentlemen opposite did le pool ; of whom it was not necessary for hirnsto say i'' seem capaele of forming a conception GI a mau de that they did not belong to the class forthe ems:ov imll inettinisi: I f to public life, without the hope' riegement of which it was pretended Alois siscluan - Ineial'clasiy could not conceive the possibility mike, or a compensation for it, should exist. The araleiwg the business of t h e State all thing but a Hon. and Learned Gentleman entered into a similar matter of trade and gain to the individuals trensace enumeration of the individuals who had successively ins it. 'l%e Honour able and Learned Gentkmie held the offices of Governor of the Isle of. Wi g ht, concluded by recapituleting his objecti us to the Bill, Constable of Windsor Cesar, Constable of the Tower, which were, first, that the Crowu aheady poAcs , "l Clerk of the Pipe, Tellers of' the Exchequer, Clerle VA.:tent-means of compensating public sesvice ; fr. of the Pella, Chief Justices in Eyre, Lord Justice condly, that the propos, d addition to those maw General (in Scotland), Lard Register (in Scotland), would only lead to ft.* .misapplication ; thodly, t!;at and the Great Seal (in Scotland), and sheaved that under the pretence of encouraging iudividuals to de• front time immemorial they had been wealthy indi- vote themselves to the public service, the Bill Merely viduals, most of them Peers, and noise of them of thit tended to draw such men Item their respective :MCA' (lasi to encourage which to enter the public service it tions in lire as were desirous of becoming tat had been contended that those offices, or an equiva. bearers ; and lastly, that it was the first time el per lent fur them, ought to be in the gilt of the Crown.— claiming to England by Act of Perliameat, that per He then proceeded to observe, that he had other oh- litics bad become a trade. jectiuns to the Bill. Why ought Parliament for the Mr. BANKES entered hal a detailed examinaties first time to lay it down as a principle, dial public of the Pension List's, and denied that they were elw' men should no longer serve the State as their tore- to the objections which load beets made to them-- fathers had done—at periods when the Godulphins With respect to the Bill before the House, the Fit and a long list of illustrious statesmen supported the ciple on which it lisd been recoinmended by Ito glory of the country at home and abroad ? What Committee, was, that no person should be Waled 0 had come over this age, that money was always to be benefit by ins provisions except those who had inezi:o• considered as the sole inducement to a public sea- riously discharged high public duties. The preamble rant ? Why were statesmen to be considered like of the Bill ewes:, that it was in consequence of Ile craftsmen, like Lawyers, like Attornies-General, and abolition of thos e others which had hitt:erre been RP' Judges ?--(Heone, hear.) When a Chancellor retired plied in the way la • hal described. It would be ca from the Woolsack, no man objected to the pension tremely unfair,. :)), (;:r. abolition of so many e dicts, which he received in consequence. He had been made suddenly. to deprive. the Cr , wri 4,f the means of cor:7 a Chancellor because he was a Barrister—lie had be. initiating those who had taitlifully .caved it, Of • -1 come a Barrister because it was a lucrative profession inducing others to enter into its service, withiag When a man went to the Bar, he went for no earthly giving it something in return. It would have :ter: purpose but to make money. This, however, ought impossible for Mi. Pitt, alter having so long, hike not to be the case with men in high situations in she the . situation of Prime Minister of the cculeii II State. They ought not to b e stimulated by the too- have lived in the seine retired manner he could toy: fives of a Clerk, who wrote and calculated ini'dcoulit. dime before entering on cline. No wan, cal 155 ing-house, or of a Barrister, whose only object was times had en; iched noriselt m office. (11.. w, Lir . ' to accumulate a fortune — t h e y oug h t to b e i n fl uence d The public havrag seen billCCLlT uflicei so often Y by a nobler principle. Did men enter that House fur stowed on levolirites, uetSOISS by *hem no vomit , rase mere purposes of lucre ? If they did, was it deco. sirs ice had been rand. mid to t e country. had ‘ reus to tell the world so ?—(llear i hear.) Must it Leine disgusted with them. It was hut idu' r :;e proclaimed by A ct o h P arliament that in di v id ua l s. h o w e v e r, to stele, that in many cases they Were 4 rs:: ems)e into e Peril-anent as into 4 trade? Ought toey ':ally bestowed for CITIIIICIII sea vices. The Te!terv; ! : :, retch at a hide paltry gain; and not having sum of use Eseliemier, for n ie ...,-e, was given to the i. &, scut at present, o u ght such a Bill as that before user of tee en e present L• ru Cin olen for his ensue; the House be passed to increase if;!• ! Entland had service's, and SO it was *it!i =any others. He' ' I elves. I I..ng Lesua. most • puli- .tbce. bow: ic • only great tined in tile rmny er.,)th r, o r WAS en by ly tb: Mar. IM• bad t i bat The were pined !sib!) , sub. Par. ill. I tut. f: Gen. Last, .loot- t value t • :sLy tht K It t 1 of tl.: d lot sy its sere alit e bu 1 to it. altcl d 1,4 is de , ped yof I ut sare rmsn esml ; e )(le. ta . 1 Rica I hie. l rir - tl. l !des ft so • 0 nu': tLr ,p . er icCn • OZ . 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