Star. — London, England, 1831-03-23 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PA R LIAM ENT. HOUSE OF LORDS, Blown 22. Lord ROLLE presented a petition firm Exeter against reform. The ruble lord said he supported the petition. The Duke of R ;CH MOND datt.d the noble lord if he were not sa ti-tied that die voice or tie country was Infavour of reform? r Lord ROLLE acid he did not fettle' himself called upon to answer that question ; for his own part ho aas decidedly against the measure u. .term propo.ed in the other house. 'rite Marquis of SALISBURY admitted there was a strong feel. ing fn favour of Reform throughout the country. 6,i NRICA RDE said there was but one exception, .ael that way. !o the . species of Reform. This country and Ireland terry alike it. favour of the proposed plan. Tne D;!;e of GLOUCErTER presented a petition from a nume row- body of quaker 4. tvz: , inttt colonial slavery. e rirl of ABERDEEN presented a petition from Aberdeen, ag tin.! the propmed alteration of the timber duties.—Also a petition iron; :Le same place again: t the imposition of duties on steam navi. ration. Several private ! it.. were bronght up from the Commons, and read firer time. ..... The Martial; of DOWNSHIRE presented a petition from Down :Ali:. , ava.m.t co!otitl slavery. Petitions for Reform .were presented by—The Earl of Mangos, from Cailington ; the Duke of NOR von', from Paddington and East Retford ; Lord CAWDOR, from Vales ; and the Marquis of CIAO E• LA C , from Shrewsbury The LORD CHANCELLOR, in pursuance of his notice yester day, presented no less than 96 retitior,s from various parts of Eng land, Scotland, and Ireland, praying that the Reform Bill may be carried into a law. ILEFOIIIII IN CIIANCEILY. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, as he had not heard from a noble and learned lord (Lyndhurst), stating when it would be conve nient to etteral tee discussion on the bankruptcy bill, he considered it better to remove all doubt respecting the next stage of the bill, by fix. fng it for the first Monday after the Easter recess. The noble and learned lord accordingly moved that the said bill be committed on Mon. day the 18th of April.—Ordercel. He then observed that lie had stated, sin a former day, what would be the saving to the suitors in equity under the procisio:s of the bankruptcy bill, but he had not been understood. There were two other bills relating to the officers of Chancery, which he had also postponed, at the request of his noble and learned friend (Lord Eldon). There was a fourth bill, for improving the Registrars and Six Clerks' Office, which must also be postponed. Adverting again to the Bankruptcy Judicature Reform Bill, the noble and learned lord said. as some doubt hail been entertained by his noble and learned friend fiord Wynford) as to the real amount of saving. he had gone over the tarts again, and he found that the saving would be nearly double what he bad mentioned. The present reduced expense of bankruptcy busi. news was 63,1671. a year, and the expense estimated tinder his bill could rot amount to more than 31,0001. but he would rather take it at 27.0001. making a saving under the head of bankruptcy alone of 36.0001. a year. In the office of the masters and Clerks, there would be a say. hg of :Montt!. and in the registrars' office and that branch, a saving of 18.3571. being in the whole a saving of 67,500 a year. including com pensation to the Chancellor. If they gave a compensation to the Lord Iwnctilor, the saving would be about 60,0001. a year. This was not so much a saving to the co:entry as a saving to the unhappy suitors in equity, who would no longer have to pay extravagant fees for copies and papers out of the different offices. It was of the first importance that suitors should have justice without b:ing pea to unnecessary ex pense, anti the noble and learned lord added, " I will try to make the relief expeditious. ' Lord WYNFORD expressed a hope that the Noble and Learned Lead would afford the house an opportunity of knowing whether his statements were correct, and where they came from. In the estimated expense of bankruptcy business there must be an error. The Noble and Learned Lord could have no objection to lay on the table some papers upon which they could see how to legislate. The LORD CH AiNCELLt 111 remarked, that his Noble Friend had said he knew but littiL of the bill, and every word his Noble Friend had uttered was a demonstration of his assertion. Lard WY NFORD said he was prepared to discuss the subject. The LORD CHANCELLOR thought his Noble Friend under mistake in supposing he knew the details of the bill. He begged him to apply his excellent understanding to it. The information he had given to the house was founded upon the returns made to a circular addressed to the Commissioners of Bankrupts and other Officers, chew. lug the average amount of their emoluments annually during the last three years. If his Noble and Learned Friend was to examine all the Officers of Chancery he would come to the same result. After a long conversation between the LORD CHANCELLOR and Lord WYNFORD upon the correctness of the Lord Chancellor's statements, the latter consulted with Lord Plunkett, and moved, with the consent of the Noble and Learned Lord (►4ynfurd) that the Secre tary of Bankrupts be ordered to lay before the house a return of the emoluments of the Commissioners of Bankrupts sitting in London, received annually during the last three Tears. —Ordered. Earl GREY presented 42 petitions for reform. Lord DURH M presented a petition, signed by 25,000 inhabitants of Glasgow, in favour of the measure of reform. Also one, to the effect, from the parish of St. James, ►Pestminster. Lord MELBOURNE gave notice, that he should move the second reading of the Sub-letting Act on Tuesday next. The Inelse then adjourned at half-past six o'clock. HOUSE OF COMMONS, Mellott 22. The house balloted fur a Conw,ittee on the Forfar Election Petition Ti., 31embers of the Committee were sworn at the table. 3lr. MACKINNON presented a petition from Ipswich, in favour of. the plan of Reform proposed by Ministers. Mr. J. S •.ITII presented similar petitions from Bognor and Lime. house, and a petition front ►►'estport, in the county of Mayo, complain mg of distress, Mr. PRINGLE presentil a petition from the county of Selkirk, against the proposed union of Scotch counties in the Ministers' plan of reform. He considered the union of the counties as highly objection. able in principle and dangerous in precedent. The honourable gentle. man presented a petition from Glasgow, against the proposed tax on steam-vessels. Mr. Alderman WA ITH MAN presented petitions in favour of the plan of reform proposed by ministers, from the parish of St. Sepulchre, the Ward t f Breadattreet, the parish of St. Giles, Bloomsbury, and the parish of St. Bride. all signed by almost every inhabitant in the respective , places ; and a similar petition from Greenwich, in Kent. Mr. Alderman WOOD preavnted a petition from the county of Kerry ia favour of Reform ; and several petitions from the Wards of Faring. don, Aldgate, Cheap, and Billingsgate. Admiral SOT HERON said, he would take that opportunity of mentioning that his bon. colleague had a petition from Notting hum to present, signed by 2.5 of his constituents in favour of the plan of reform in the bill of the noble lord. He had been ap- 4 plied to by his constituents to support that petition. His con stituents had returned him to Parliament five times. At his last I election they inquired of hint whether he would support a reform in Parliament, and he hail declared his determination to support a moderate reform, and came down to that house last night de termined to support the second reading of the bill; but having given his best attention to the discussion, he must say that, after Laving well considered the speech that closed the debate last night, la could not conscientiously any loner support the noble lord's plan of reform. (Loud cries of Hear from the Opposition.) He was aware that by opposing the noble lord's bill, which he must admit was highly approveu of by his constituents, who had five times done him the hanoar of sending him as their representative to that house, he ran the risk of severing a connection that was most dear to him ; but he must obey the dictates of his conscience and oppose that particular plan of reform contained in the bill before the house.-- (Great cheering front the Op;.osition.) Lott' J. RUSSELL by no means intended to impute any thing in. Entionally unfair to the Gallant Admiral; he had no doubt that he was p, rfectly sincere in the declaration he had made of the change that had taken place in his opinions; yet he must say that the Gallant Admiral been led into a course which was neither fair nor impartial. The Gallant Admiral had heard all the discussion that had taken place on the introduction of the bill, and had determined to vote for the second reading ; but after hearing the objections made to the details of the bill in the closing speech of last night, all of which admitted of a sada factory reply, but which there had not yet been any opportunity of sialvering and disproving, the Gallant Admiral had changed his mind without u ~iting to hear what answer could be given to the objections. ettal determined to vote against the second reading of the bill. (Hear.) This conduct he could nut but consider inconsistent with fairness and jus::ce ar.) Sir .1. YORK F. said, he coulu by no means agree in the opinion of the noble lord. He thought his gallant friend, when he saw just cause to change his opinion on the bill, had acted in a manly straightforward, noble manor; in avowing that change, and his determination to oppose the bill. (11.ar.) Lord ALTHORP said, he hoped the gallant Admiral would believe that he could attribute nothing to hint that was not fair and honourable; (Hear, hear.)—but his noble friend complained that the gallant admiral should have made up his mind without waiting to hear the whole of the arguments, and he thought there was reason for that complaint. Coming down as he did yesterday, to vote for the se cond reading, he should haves aired to hear the close of the argument before he changed his mind. The learned member for Weymouth, in the last speech that was delivered last night, had argued against the de. tails of the bill, but all his arguments could be:tally answered, and the gallant admiral should have waited to hear the tr.swer that would be given by his noble friend before he decided against the bill. Mr. BANKES, senior, said his gallant friend had a right to state his reasons before the last speech on the second reading, when he would have no opportunity, and should go before his constituents after the dis solution of Parliament, with which they were so often threatened, baying voted contrar to their instructions, without assigning any reason. Lord MO RPETII said, he did not disapprove of the Gallant Ad. miral's change of mind ; but he hoped the Gallant Admiral would hear another speech that would hang him back to his former state of mind. Mr. C. DUNDAS presented a petition front Berkshire, in favour of the plan of reform proposed by ministers. Mr. R. PALLMER said, the petition was very respectably signed, and he was the only person present at the county meeting who did not entirely approve of the plan of ministers. (Hear, bear.) He should not object to the second reading of the Bill, be hoped it would be inn. proved in the committee. Alr. F. PALMER said, there was not a second opinion in the county—all were in favour of the reform proposed by ministers.— ( Hear, hear.) Mr. SPENCE said, he bad ascertained that his former constituents in that county were unanimous in favour of the plan of reform proposed by ministers, in which opinion be fully concurred. (Hear, hear.) REFORM. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the order of the day for morning the adjourned debate on the second reading of the reform in parliament bill. He lamented that there was not sufficient time to receive all the petitions on the subject, but he thought it still more important that the discussion should be brought to a conclusion. (Hear, hear.) Sir G. CLERK said, he had a petition to present, signed by six hundred of the most respectable inhabitants of Edinburgh, against the plan of reform proposed by ministers. With respect to the petitions presented last night, signed by thirty-two thousand persons, he could state, as a fact, that it was signed by the youths of Edinburgh many times over. A boy, fourteen years of age, a near relative of his own, complained that he had been only able to sign the petition sixteen times, and one of his school-fellows had signed it forty times. (A laugh.)— The house were kept in ignorance of the plan as far as Ireland was con cerned. The Bill for Ireland should be laid on the table, that the plan might be judged of as a whole. Mr. WARD lamented that he ass precluded by the disposition to resume the debate, from presenting a petition, signed by several hun dred merchants of London, against the ministers' plan of reform. — (Hear, hear.) Sir THOMAS BARING thought it most important that the semi ments of the people should be known in the house; and if only peti. tions from counties were received, and without observation there would be time to receive them all ; and if the people were appealed to, the answer would come from the people to the noble lord's heart's dis content. (Hear.) Mr. BANKES, junior, said, a petition had been agreed to by the University of Cambridge, against the bill ; he was surprised it had not been presented. Mr. CAVENDISH said, he heard that a petition had been agreed to at the University of Cambridge, against certain parts of the bill ; he believed It had not yet reached them. Mr. HUM E said, he had two petitions from counties to present, but did not wish to delay the debate. Sir CHARLES WETHERELL said, he was extremely anxious to have the petition from the University of Cambridge presented. The noble lord, member for the University, and one of his Majesty's minis ters should have presented it. Lord: A LTHORP said, his noble friend had not read the pe tition. (Hear, hear.) A MEMBER said, he understood from the right honourable member for Armagh (Mr. Goulburn) that he had got the peti tion. (A great laugh.) Mr. CALCRAFT said he intended to vote fur the second read ing of the bill (Great cheering) ; but he must request that time should be allowed, to receive all the petitions of the people in this stage of the bill. He hoped that all the petitions now in the house would be received. Lord JOHN RUSSELL said his right honourable friend had put his request in such an agreeable manner, that he should withdraw his motion, and agree to the presentation of petitions till seven o'clock. (Hear, and a laugh.) Mr. F. PALMER presented a petition from Reading, fur the plan of Reform, proposed by minister/. Mr. PEEL presented a petition from Norwich, against the plan of Reform proposed by :Ministers. Lord STANLEY presented petitions in favour of the plan of Re form proposed by Ministers, from Warrin ; ton, Stockport, Salford, Blackburn. and t"o other pla ces. Mr. SANDFORD presented eleven petitions from places in Somer set, in favour of the plan of Reform, proposed by Ministers. Lord EBRINOTON presented a similar petition from Bethnal green, signed by 7,000; and similar petitions from Plymouth, Devon port, Ashbumham, Axminster, and IlCYclt other places in Devon. Sir THOMAS ACKLAND said since the bill was brought in the Corporation of Plymouth had trebled their numbers by their own act, and in the most impartial manner. Mr. W. HOWARD presented a similar petition from Worthing. Lord VILLIERS presented a petition from Rochester, against the plan of Reform proposed by Ministers. Mr. BERNAL said the petitioners only objected to the disfranchise ment of a portion of the present freemen of Rochester. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL presented a petition from Andover in favour of the Bill for Reform before the House; and a similar pe tition from Monmouth. _ Mr. HUNT presented similar petitions from Whitchurch and El. dersby. Mr. S. RICE presented a similar petition from Limerick. Lord ALTHORP said the Bill for Ireland was prepared, and would be speedily introduced. Mr. GEORGE DAWSON said the people of Ireland felt indig nant at the manner in which they were treated, in not having the bill for Ireland brought before the house. Mr. O'CONNELL said the people of Ireland were exceedingly de lighted at the plan of Reform brought forward by ,Ministers; and he would have between three and four hundred petitions to present in fa vour of it. Hear, hear.) Mr. 3100 RE said no measure ever struck such horror and dismay in Ireland as the reform proposed by ministers. He had no doubt it was approved of by that portion of the people the learned gentleman represented; but there was a powerful influential portion a the intel ligent Irish people opposed to the vote. Col. TRENCH said the people of Ireland were relying on the mem. ber for Waterford for carrying such a plan of reform as he had pro. posed. He was anxious to have the Irish bill before the house. Mr. BROWNLOIV said be was anxious that the bill for Ireland should be laid on the table and circulated in Ireland, as he was con fident it would give universal satisfaction. The north of Ireland, of which the member for Waterford was not the peculiar representative, had universally petitioned in favour of reform of parliament; and yet the hon. member for Dublin jumped up and told the house it was only with those represented by the hon. member for Waterford that reform was popular. Mr. AIOORE said he did not mean to say so much. Mr. STANLEY reprobated the factious opposition of the honourable baronet, and his pretended ignorance of the measure. 1 4 e ( Mr. S.) had no doubt but when the measure was fully developed, that it might not, perhaps, meet with the unlimited approbation of the hon, baronet, but he was certain that it would obtain front the people of Ireland confi. dence in his Majesty's ministers. The general principle of the area. sure had been laid before the house sufficiently ample to be understood by every one—it was to give both to Ireland and Scotland a real fur a fictitious representation. It would be unnecessary to disturb the house further on the subject of the other countries if the present bill was lost, for their general principles were the same. Sir G. CLERL strongly denied that he had been actuated by party feeling. Mr. D. BROWNE said, he was perfectly sad-died with the mea sure for Ireland, and so he could assure the house was the general feel ing in Ireland. He was astonished at the petition that had been re amed with authority from Waterford, by the hon. member for Edin burgh, in opposition to the sentiments on the subject of the honouu ble member for Waterford, who had by far the better opportunity of knowing the sentiments of the people. The hon. member repeated, that the bill had his utmost approbation, and he was confident that his sentiments were reiterated by all classes, Orangemen and Catholics, In Ireland. A M EMBER, whose name we could not Irun, expressed his dissa tisfaction of the general principles of the bill. Lord L. GOWER contended that the bill for Ireland ought to be produced, and added that he did not believe that it was yet prepared, and that Ministers had been taken by surprise, as he (Lord L. G.) was of opinion that they never expected the measure, which they had brought forward, would have passed the first reading. (Cheers from the opposition.) Sir C. WETHERELL thought the bill had not yet seen the light, but Instead of consulting those whom they ought to have advised with, the ministers had probably entered into some diplomatic approximation with the lion. member for Waterford on the subject. (Hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connell repeatedly) There might be some tendency— (hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connell)—the hon. member did not like to hear of the word tendency; but the situation in which his Majesty's Government had been situated with the hon. member was strongly changed ; for instead of the iroceedings that had been instituted against him, their arms had seemed to enlarge, and Ministers and he were shaking hands with each other from their places across the table. (Hear, from the Opposition.)—and the learned Solicitor General on the opposite side was so hearty in his approval, that he h a d exu l t i ng ly cheetcd the hon. member for Waterford. This looked something like diplomatic approximation, particularly when it was recollected the correspondence that had passed between them, which had been laid be fore the house. The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, that enough of the bill re lating to Ireland had been disclosed, that the hon. gentleman might have understood it; and he reminded the house that the hon. member for Waterford had animadverted upon it at great length. Be repro bated the conduct of the learned baronet as a lawyer, making any allu sion to the prosecution that was pending over the hon. member for Wa terford ; it had been alluded to last night in a similar manner, and the learned baronet had reiterated it. The Attorney General denied that any negortation had taken place between the hon. member and the go- vernment. When talking of diplomatic approximation he (the Atter. ney General) could not help looking at the opposite bench. How and cable the approximation was he could not tell, but the approximation that had there been exhibited was not a little remarkable.—On the Sm. bee duty question—(bear, hear, flew the Opposition)—they bad, by an anouuslous approximation, left Ministers in a minority;—(hear, from the Opposition)— and they were peoud of it— ( sheen i from the Opposition.) He (the Attorney General) regretted the situation that the hon. member for Waterford had been placed in. It was not the fault of the present, but of the late administration the circumstance of those proceedings taking place. They had not settled the Catholic question so as to leave no Catholic question behind ; but they had left one individual, and one alone, excluded from the privileges which he ought to have enjoyed. (Hear, hear.) Public officers he knew were always closely watched, but he had never known that any public officer had been brought to account for cheering a sentiment of which he might happen to approve when he heard it uttered. ( Hear. hear.) He thought that his learned friend had a little forgotten himself when he had indulged in these remarks in his speech. (Calls of Question.) Mr. GOULBURN would not enter into detail to confute the alle- gations against the late administration which had been thrown out by the learned Attorney General; hut he denied the justness of the im putation. Mr. C. P. THOMSON rose amidst loud cries of "Question, question." He said that, from the frequent allusion to the timber duty he felt himself called upon to declare that, although that measure had been defeated by the assistance of the late administration, upon good assurance he could inform the house, that it was the intention of the late administration to have adopted a similar measure them selves.—(Cries of No, no, from the Opposition, and Question from others.) Mr. H RRRILS denied that such an intention had ever existed. The honourable member said that the Right Honourable Secretary could produce no written document to prove it. (Cries of " Ques tion, question.") Mr. O'CONNELL said that he bad been made so much the topic of conversation of the night, that be thought he had a right to be heard, but he would be as short as possible.—(Question, question.) The ex- Attorney-General had assailed both the government and him. As a lawyer he ought to have acted otherwise than alluding to the proceed. ings in the manner he had done. He (Mr. O'Connell) was a lawyer him. self, but he was happy that be was not a member of the same bar with the ex-Attorney-General. (Hear.) It was the custom: of the bar of which he had the honour to be a member, not to press on any prosecu. tion. Such might suit the purpose of the lowest description of Old Bailey solicitors, but it was considered unworthy of the more elevated stations of the profession. The Learned ex-Attorney-General had taxed him (Mr. O'C.) with arrogance; he bad heard the Learned Gentlemen express nimself, he would not call it arrogance, but it was tt. much like arrogance as any thing that he had ever hea rd, when he chose to use words without meaning, clamour without argument, and sound without sense. (Hear) He ( Mr. O'Connell) complained that his words had been misconstrued in his observations on the measure; he had merely said, that he liked the bill, as it would be the means of obtaining fur Ireland good government, which was all that she wished for. The lion. Member spoke in the most contemptuous terms of the repeated allusions that had been made to the Learned Attorney General opposite having cheered him (Mr. O'Connell.) He said, that if he had, by any diplomatic approximation-4a laugh) been associated with the hon. Bart. (Sir C. IV.) and his colleague+ that he would have been ready to have chevred him too, if lie had s tood up to advocate oppression, the continuance of abuses, (Hear , hear) and had drawn the line of de marcation, and said, thus far shall ye go and no farther ; all that is wrong, that exists, must remain here for ever—if he expressed himself in these terms, then would the learned baronet have echoed the cheer, and would have given the box on the table a blow by way of argument. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) And these were gentlemen who talked of conscience—conscience, indeed, when they would allow the rights of the people to be swallowed up. (Cries of " No, no," from the Opposition.) He (Mr. O'Connell) denied that he hal made any compromise with Government, or they with him. He said that the spoliators ought to have let him alone ; but it was the last struggle of the rotten fabric, which was, thank Heaven ! about to tumble down about their ears. (Hear.) The hon. member, after repeating his approval of the bill, sat down amidst loud cheers. _ _ _ Sir C. WETHERELL, in explanation, alluded with some warmth to the insinuations of the hon. member to his want of argument and his &ficiency of words, and said he would confine himself solely to the word "spoliation,' which he thonght came with a bad grace from the lips of the hon. member for Waterford. He (Sir Charles Wetherell) could point out a man who had handed a begging-box round his own impoverished country (cries of hear, hear, and oh, oh), the begging box was handed round, and two pence was wrung rom the poor man, and a penny from the ragged man (cries of hear, hear, and oh, oh); this was the contribution that had been raised for the hon. member for 'Wa terford. (Cries of question, question.) 111 r. O'CONNELL, with difficulty, amidst the Cliff/ for question, obtained permission to explain. He said, he acknowledged that his country was poor, but it was generous—(hear, hear)—and he had had no hand, directly or indirectly, himself, in the raising of the tribute, but he expended more money in the service of his country than the - le:riled gentleman had ever earned by his profession. (Hear, hear.) iFle had abandoned a practice worth seven thousand pounds a year, besides hav ing devoted more time for the last twenty years in Its service than he could easily value. He had at one time from his own pocket supported the expense of the necessary agitation for Catholic emancipation.— (Hear, from the Opposition.) Sir R. PEEL said, he thought it better that this description of de bate should terminate, and the important question be gone into. Mr. NORTH sto od on the floor for several minutes, and made nu. merous attempts to speak, but he was compelled to relinquish his de. sign, overpowered by the calls of " Question, question." Tile order of the day was then moved, that the adjourned debate on the reform bill be resumed. ...., .- Lord MAHON could not support a measure which was nothing i less than a new modelling—(a laugh)—of the Constitution. He denied 1 that were they to count the illustrious dead, they would, as had been i asserted, find a majority on that (the Ministerial) side. The great men alluded to were all attached to different grades, all conflicting in their modes of reform. Hon. Members opposite wished to satisfy the people : were they prepared to vote against the civil list, the army estimates, the asserted taxes, the accumulation of which the peti tioners for reform put forth as the ground of their prayer. He con tended that the destruction of the boroughs would, by lessening the pre-eminence of the county Members, diminish among the others elected with the desire to attain that rank a powerful motive for exertion and display of talent. (Hear, bear, hear.) It was on a restlessness to change practical advantages for theoretical perfection, that originated the present feeling in favour of Reform—a feeling which had existed among the French previous to their revolution, and had brought such results on that unfortunate country. He asked those who objected to the theory of the boroughs, to point but that law which, however well It worked, did not contain in the ab stract some ridiculous absurdity.—(Hear.) The system of intimidation had certainly been adopted with respect to hon. members, if not in, at least out of doors.—(Hear.) If there were discontent, the ministers had created it,ioy bringing the country to a position where, he admitted, it was difficult to stop with safety, but beyond which it would be impoi. sible to proceed without ruin.—(Hear.) If the minister lied done half so much to tranquilize, as he had done to bewilder the people. they would have heard nothing of the present discontent.—( Hear.) lie hoped they would hear no more of hon members being opposed to re form, because they opposed the reform of ministers. As well might it be said that those who did not support the retrenchments of the hon. member for Middlesex were averse to all retrenchment. It was their duty to protect the true interests, not to gratify the desires and preju dices, of the people. He could tell ministers that they would not force hear. members to vote for them by intimidation; if they did he would neither envy the voters their feelings nor ministers their triumph. Sir J. SHELLEY would begin by frankly stating that the majority of his constituents were in favour of the present measure. He himself opposed it as unjust, fallacious, and revolutionary. It disfranchised sixty boroughs, despoiling more particularly the lower orders. In the borough which he represented, out of 800 houses who had a vote, no less than 400 would be disfranchised. It was fallacious, because while it was believed to confer a boon on the landed interest, it conferred it in reality on the manufacturing interest ; the large towns would outvote the counties. It was revolutionary, because its consequence would be the destruction of two of the states of the realm. Having these feelings on the subject, he should vote against the bill, even at the hazard of losing his seat. Mr. CAVENDISH was authorised from a communication with the members of the Senate at Cambridge, to state that many of those who had agreed to a resolution against the present measure, had done so, not from objecting to disfranchisement, but because they consider ed the elective franchise in the boroughs to be placed too low. He proceeded to say, that though none felt more deeply than he did that this country had been fortunate beyond the common lot of nations, he could not understand how that prosperity was made to rest on the present system. --(Hear, hear.) They had been told that the interests, not the feelings, of the people were to be considered ; but it was his conviction that with out the confidence of the people government could have no stability. Nor would the dissatisfaction fail to go on increasing so long as the members of that house had the power of conducting affairs with no consideration for the public good. If the dissatisfaction were 'mo thered for a time, it would burst out on every new occasion with aug mented violence. With respect to revolution it was only to be appre hended in the continuance of a system which gave to certain portions of the community interests decidedly at variance with the general inter ests of the people. He could not be swayed by gloomy forebodings of the downfall of the aristocracy ; he could not believe them so re duced that they must stand or fall by the nomination boroughs. Far from that, he believed that reform would add to their stability, by making them rely on the more solid security of the affections of the people. Mr. W. ORMSBY GORE—An hoe. and eloquent member had appealed to the sepulchres of the dead ; he (Mr. W. Gore) would, under leave of the house, evoke into the precincts of St. Stephen's the spirit of the most illustrious of them, of the great advocate of the cons stitution, the spirit of Sir Wm. Blackstone. (Much laughter.) The introduction of copyholders into elections, which was the least obja , tionable part of the proposed innovation, war considered by Sir Wm. , Blackstone as tantamount to removing the superstructure of the consti tution, and erecting another in its place. What then would he say , were he to arise from his grave—(alaugh).—at hearing that sixty-three members of that house were to be ousted from their places ntva t° be returned ? What would he say to the destruction of the chartist s and corporations ? He should like to hear defended the s pi r i t of in.- Ciality limb had presided over the distribution of the ti: ein b,,, eounty of Wilts was to send 23 members while the 'fry of Wales was to send only the same number. The Glamorgan, with 50,753 male inhabitants, sent one member to parkof meat, while Northumberland, with about 00,000 was to b e n n o „ a :,, four representatives. Was that justice ? If the government wer e n , new modelled, for Ood's sake let them have impartiality. W as w, i , s well treated ? Wales which had ever been the most loyal part of tl'e kingdom ? He must say that Wales had never been properly of in that house; it was a most important part of the kingdom. (Laughter.) He declared that he would yield nothing; he weak resist to the utmost the shameful dereliction of principle which el ls , sacterized this bill. It was any thing but an impartial and a j ust bill. He had not opposed its introduction, but now that he na e Ge e, ' it, he should resist it altogether. He had not desired to trouble the: house, after such extended discussion, with any observations, except h e thought he could say something new. (A laugh.) Lord Burleigh, b e it recollected, had declared, that " England could never be ruined, except by its Parliament." (Loud cheers from the Ministerial side.) Now, when be saw such a sweeping plan of reform wandering throu g h the land, he feared that the prophecy was about to be realized. (Hele.l He trusted that it would not be so. He also complained of the time selected for bringing forward this plan. When revolutions were agi. eating the whole continent .when all was unsettled—the ministers h a d proposed their measure. The time was as ill judged as the 10MJUTT was unjust. Captain POLHILL briefly addressed the house, and was understood to express his decided approbation of the bill. Mr. WARD (one of the City Members) said he was bound to stet, that a very large proportion of his constituents approved of this bill_ (bear,) and consequently entertained opinions very different front hi. own on the subject. He lamented that fact, but at the same time is would have been unfair towards his Majesty's ministers to withhold tin avowal of it.—(Hear.) But though he did this act of justice towards;: large proportion of his constituents, he had a still more import,..• duty to perform, to take care that he did not abandon the inters: , of those who agreed in opinion with him, and who had confided :.. him to support and represent their sentiments. And it was the mat, Incumbent on him to perform this duty, because he held a petitio: signed by 000 of the bankers, merchants, &c. of London, which he had been unable to present. That being the case, he was obliged to avail himself of this opportunity to express his antiments, and to do his duty towards those whose petition he had not been able to present. As to those petitioners lie had to state, that they were inde. pendent—that they were qualified to judge of a question like the pre sent, and they had much at stake. It was matter, therefore, of the deepest interest to them. It was a question to them whether the ex. listing institutions of the country should be maintained, or whether all was to be left to a future and a differently constituted parliament—to a parliament not elected on any principles that had stood the test of ex perience, but from elements that were up to that moment unknown. In the earlier part of the evening the house had extended considerable atten. tion to the feeling observations of a gallant admiral (Sothcron), who ex pressed the pain with which he differed from old connexions and a jocity of his constituents, and perhaps a somewhat similar consideration would be extended to the peculiar situation in which be was placed. (Hear.) He trusted he was the last man who would be indifferent either to the people or to his constituents. However, whatever intimidation might be resorted to he must use his own judgment. Whether the people ought to have a larger portion in the government of the country than they now had—a portion under which, he thanked God, the people had hitherto enjoyed a large share of liberty—might be a fit questic:: to raise ; but being raised, it was one on which he was justified in cur. eising his judgment. Now, with regard to the contemplated impose. ments, if the measure in question would not greatly contribute to tin benefit of the people, then he apprehended it must fall to the ground.— It was his opinion, that it would not promote the Increased b.metit of the people. In the neighbouthood of the place where he was born, there happened to be three boroughs, called close boroughs.— Who had been returned by them? Amongst the Members had been Alr. Pitt, Mr. Fox, 31r. Sheridan, Mr. Perccval, Mr. Canning, Lord Palmerston anti the Duke of Wellington. Now, he thought it would be indeed fortunate if there could be any improvement in the representation which could give better representatives than those lie had named. Again—when he entered that house. who were the three mo't influential members on the Ministerial side ? Mr. Canning, Mr. Huskisson, and Sir Robert Peel. And who were the three most in- fluential men on the opposition bench ? Mr. Brougham, Sir. Tierney, and Sir James Mackintosh. Now, he hesitated not to say, that it would be a fortunate improvement in the representation that could secure for them abler and better men as influential men on each side of the house. So much then for the boroughs, and for the influence they gave on either side of the house. He would take another view of the present state of the representation ; he would look to what Mem bers had been returned. He would notice three returns—two were now in the house (Sir F. Burdett and Sir R. Wilson)—and one (Lord Cochrane) was no longer a Member. To the Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) in particular he owed an apology for thus alluding to him, if he should say any thing that was inconvenient to him, but they were the only three that had been particularly called to any account, and they were all the results of popular elections. Now, he hoped they would forgive him for saying, that he was not quite enamoured of bar. ing exclusively that system which had returned those members. But it was said there were persons who were not represented. What sort of representation was it they desired? Did they require that it should represent the physical force of the country—its reason—or its passions? On the good sense of the country he bad the greatest reliance—on its passions he had none. If the representation were to result from exciting the passions of the people, the representation must reflect that excite. tion ; the feeling which impelled the people in that case must produce a re-action in that house-4 Hear, hear.) He did not wish to shut out the feelings of the people ; on the contrary, he certainly wished them to mix with the pro ceedings of that House. (Hear.) But no philosophy had yet shown to what extent the popular feelings might safely and usefully mix with the constitution and proceedings of that house. It therefore might be permitted to him to doubt the efficacy of this measure, which he most certainly did. Ile also ob. jetted to the period at which it wu brought forward. A measure of so much importance, and so seriously affecting our internal ro lky, ought to be brought forward when foreign affairs were less dis turbed than they now were. Those were some of his reasons for ob. jetting to the measure. In alluding to what the Parliament, u re formed, would do, it was urged that it would effect reduction of taxa. tion ; but it was omitted to be stated what the Parliament had done! The people were often told of the 50.000,0001 taxes that remained ; but they were not reminded of the 31,000,0001. taxes that had been taken off. Again, much was said of the patronage; it was right to see how the patronage worked, and whether it was properly exerted. There had been conversation about salaries of 501. and 1001, cut down, but it was omitted to be stated, that within the last nine years 4poo places had been reduced, 58 of them being of salaries from 1,0001. to 3,0001. a year. He concluded with repeating that he must oppose the motion. He did so with considerable personal sacrifice of feeling; but he did so for the unalloyed purpose of doing what he deemed would be beneficial to the country. (Hear.) Slr. WYSE supported the bill ; and he did not ask whether it was or was not a revolutionary measure ; the question with him was its goodness or badness. This measure would destroy the excrescences without injuring the vital parts of the constitution ; and as that was the cue, whether they termed it revolution or not, the sooner they had it he thought the better it would be. (Cheers) Sir ROBERT BATESON said, with regard to the plan of reform introduced by his Majesty's ministers, he agreed in the principles bat could not in the details.—(Hear,) He agreed with the noble lord on many points, but differed in others. He did not think that population ought to be represented so much as property.—( I leer.)—He had two petitions to present from Londonderry, in favour of the measure. but he could not support their prayer. His opposition did not arise from factious motives. (Hear, hear.) When he heard of a bill of teform he felt anxious to give it his support; but in the measure now proposed, ministers had shown their total ignorance of the state of the Irish nation—they appeared to know nothing of the local circumstances of that country. The relief proposed to Ireland was not sufficiently considered, he should therefore oppose the second reading. (Hear, hear.) He would nut, u he understood mans hon. members intended to do, vote for the second reading to gain Po pularity, (hear, hear,) and then strive to fritter away the bill in con:- allures. (Loud cries of Hear, hear.) If he supported the measure. he would do it manfully, and if he opposed it, his opposition should he manful. He could not support the present plan of Reform, but at the same time he must declare his firm conviction, that whoever might be Ministers they must introduce some plan of Reform. Whoever might compose the government, some plan of Reform they would find it re. ceessry to introduce. The late Administration had brought about all the present excitement in the country, by not conceding some Reform. In fact they had incurred a heavy reponsibility.—(Hear.) He did not object to some rotten boroughs being disfranchised, but he did not sec any reason to cut off sixty from any participation in the elective fret- Abe in some of which the voters were as independent as t he voters in London and Westminster.—( Hear.) He was also a reformer as regard,_ . e4 all useless places.—(Hear.) And for all pensions granted for useir' 4 services, sad all those granted to the fair sex.—(Laughter.) But the measure of Reform before the house he felt bound to oppose.--( 1 " . bear.) The boo. baronet sat down amidst loud cries of withdraw, with draw adjourn. adjourn. Lad MOUNTCHARLES, with some difficulty obtained s best . bag; but the noise in the house, arising from members talking? run' doted it impossible to hear correctly what the noble lord stared. lit could not, he said, give a silent vote on this momentous question, feu public opinion an so strong in favour of neform, that it was impoutbk not to pant it. (Hear.) He would boldly declare, that if it was much lenges delayed, it would be extorted from the house by the voice with out. If, however, it was granted, it was probable the doors o f the house might be shut against him for ever ; but be was willing for spa' public good to sacrifice individual feelings. The measure w as as nos h one of expediency as the one introduced by the ,late Home Secretary fa disfranchising the forty.shilling freeholders of Ireland, Prprevious tc) passing the Catholic Relief Bill. (Hear, hear.) On the same roma