Star. — London, England, 1810-02-01 00:00:00

r to effect, the suspensionought_6 continue.- asioiTsesion nlone was su ffi cient, and would Ditt the s precisely the saute power of altera tion. tiriv f .' a nd abolition as if a bill were instantly adopted a l t ogether to abolish the granting of reversions— since i t was evident that that bill could not accelerate • on of the reversions already granted, and !Lee 3ti t . s a spension Bill would prevent any increase the'r number. Although he was willing to admit t ilat t h e r rerogativeolthe Crown would not be in ed by the measure proposed his Honourable r- t d i ea d, still, he contended, that unless some existing ivil could be demonstrated, it was useless; if not data herovi to alter or interfere with that prerogative.— The House might proceed too hastily in this business o f abolishing r eversionary grants. Of this fact, a circumstance which had recently occurred afforded sufficient proof. The attention and interest of the pu blic had lately been very painfully excited by an oc ,urrence in a particular office in which there was r,o r eversionary grant. (We understood the Right Tim. Gentleman to allude to the absence of Mr. Zden.) By that very circumstance of there being no rt.‘versionary grant, a great public inconvenience "night be sustained ; for if such an office became va imv: just before the issue of public ir.oney, during the I f ou r or five days which it would require to make out a f res h grant.of that office, no public money could be issued from it. On these and other grounds, con- ce iving that the suspension of the power of granting 1 , reversions would be more convenient to the public 1 1 ser vice than the abolition of that power, and eq ua lly lxneticial to the country at large, he would move an amendment to leave out the words " to render per petual the said act," and to substitute the words— “ to continue and extend the said act for a time to be ranked." PONSONBY remarked, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken care to confine his observations to that point which was the least important in the present subject, namely, the consideration of public economy, and had with great prudence passed by all Onse topics of more material interest, which might be fund in the undue Ministerial influence, which the measure now proposed tended to curtail. It was evi dent that by the practice of - granting reversions, the legitimate influence of the Crown was diminished, and the Minister of the day was compelled to look oat for other and for -undue means to support his own irdividual power. Mr. D. GIDDY declared that he heartily and sin cerely supported the original motion, in the adoptic n of which there did not appear to him the possibility tiny danger ; but on the contrary, which was in his opinion fraught with the most desirabl2 consequences to the public service. Sir S. ROMILLY also supported the original mo tion. The abolition was preferable to the suspension, fir the effect of the latter would be to accumulate the offices in reversion, which would be at the dispo sil of the Minister when that suspension terminated. Ali offices were of two kinds—either they had duties attached to them, or they were sinecures. To ap pint to an office of the first description a person who vas to fill it at a future period, was to appoint a per- . son who at the period of his appointment might be very fit for the office, but by the time when he en teral upon it, might become very unfit for the office. At the time when such a person was appointed, his ficulties might be unimpaired and his character un impeachci ; but when the period arrived for his en tering upon the duties of his office, the one might be clouded and the other lost. On this ground it had been decided in Courts of Law, that a judicial office could not be granted in reversion. In the reign of Queen Elizabeth it had been determined, that the Auditorship of the Court of Words (a situation ap proaching to a judicial character) could not be granted in a reversion. In fact, the impropriety of granting, in reversion, offices which require the per formance of duties , was self-evident. Would he be considered a man 3f. sound understanding who should appoint any person to become the steward of his estate on the death of his present steward i If such a step with respect to the servant of a private indivi dual would be considered as absurd, he could not perceive why a similar imputation should not attach to similar conduct with respect to the servants of the Public. Equally disadvantageous was it that sine cures should be granted in reversion. The propriety of sinecures at all was not then the subject of discus sion. The only ground of de:ence, however, upon which they could be justified was, that they were granted for past important services. When they were granted in reversion, the public lost much, and the individual obtaining them gained little. He wassur prised and concerned to hear the Right Hon. Gentle-1 man opposite talk with such indifference on a subject vhich to him appeared of the utmost importance ; and to shew that it had been so considerel by great authorities, he read a passage from a tract written ' by Lord Chief Justice Hale, expressly to guard ariast the innovations of the Law, in which that L'araed Lord not only recommended abolition of the Porch of granting reversions in future, but advised 11- 4; those then existing should be immediately taken offi and pensions, given to their possession in their ' l2 4i. With respect to the sentiments.olthe other House of Parliam en t on t hi s or an y other subject, it leas for the House of Commons to do their duty inde- Pendently of any other consideration. Ti:e question being put on the amendment, it Was' teeatived without a division. Ti!e original Motion was then carried without a cl ivi"n, and Mr. BAN 1C63, Mr. D. GIDDY, and se other Members, were appointed to bring at the COMMITTEE 0? YINAIJCE. M - . BANKES in rising to propose the reviv,l of „ tae Lommiztee for investigating the state of the pub lic expenditure, felt that to that general proposition there could be no possible objection, unanimous as t heliouse had al wa y s b een in their opinion ' on that vlbject. It remained however to be considered, and the consideration was an' important one, who was to delegated for the purpose. He was convinced that the efficie ncy or inefficiency of the Committee must depend on the Members selected to compose it. In ..t original Committee the numbers had been too great. It had been found by experience, that in a large possessed of the power of unlimited discussion, DUSIIe4S could not be satisfactorily expedited. It ap peared advi*able that the Committee should not won- I t !t of more than fifteen Members, or thereabouts. Ale had drawn up a list of riames which he intended t° P r Vose, and on which the House would judge for illem"selves . . Of this he was sure, • •i• - . thought proper to appoint the indittat t4l .martio' °li lted - • , cific, Chwaii.' • 'This statemeitt, hoirever, had . been Ofiliteer ;ger Agri) monatmg 16 gain , with 70 most satisfactorily Contradicted by another Honour- Men • he in that list, the Committee would consist of - men pos- able Gentleman. It might be asked if' at had end had s captured Le o n f ei si g t b d o a ur ys ! sinst sessed of great ability and sincere inclinationfrom seret:enni4vessefr7snifraocmrtiti to serve fallen him and from his Right Hon. .riend, was hood of Yarmouth, and came in for morehands, being . the Public, and also, he truste d; of sufficient leisure, not inconsistent with what they asserted on a fOnner to return immediately on the same Station. Two of to devote to the consideration of the subject entrusted' occasion, to procure the removal of another commit- her prizes have been reCaptured by his Majesty's ship to them, the • time which such an important investissa- tee ? e would answer this question by desiring the Satellite. which ship the Captain of the privateer de tion required . He was anxious to avoid spea king House to recollect how that committee had been elated he would have boarded, had he not been invidiously of any of the Members of the last Corn: formed. The nomination had been taken away from weakened by sending his men in the prizes. mittee ; but it must be evident to the House, that a the worthy Member wito brought the subject for- • No. e. --Queries put by the Lords Conimissioners ache Adnii- Committee constituted of men differing materially ward, and the greater part of them were nom:nated • - upon the points to which their attention was directed, by the Minister of the day. A new Parliament had ! co njunct so:aka. and some of them in complete hostility to the object been assembled, the Committee must at least have I. Q. What proportion of this force is deemed ui- for which the Committee was appointed, could not been reexist ; was it then unfair to call f - n• a new : site to invest the Island of \Valcheren, and watch be expected soon to bring their labours to a success- Committee, and draw an equal number of Members the enemy's ships in Flushing ; and what would re ful issue. His first motion would be, from each party ? That was the fact, and he trusted main applicable to protect and assist in the disem " That a Select co:annites be appointed to investigate the t hat charge would be considered as having been fairly barkation of the troops ?—A. The line of battle ships state of the Public Expenditure." This Motion was unanimously agreed to. answered. Could such a Committee be compared should proceed in the first instance (especially if the Mr. BANK ES then proposed the following names, with that of last Session, which had so anxiously la- enemy's vessels are in a forward state) to take a po the first eight being Members of the old Committee • boured to give satisfaction ? Could it fairly be said, sition in the entraisce of the Scheldt, to prevent the of that Committee that it had done nothing, when its escape of the ships in Flushing, on the arrival of rein- Mr. H. Tbornton, M , -. Biddulph, Mr. Sturges Bourne, Mr, useful labours were before the House, and the rove- forcements from Antwerp. The island could not be Brogden, Mr. N. Calvert, Mr. Cavendish, Mr. Alderman Combe, Mr. T. Baring, Mr. Mines, Mr. C. Ellis, Mr. Peel, Mr. D. nee had derived no inconsiderable advantage from it ? invested until the troops were iii pessession of Fort Giddy, an: Mr. Bathurst. It remained only to decide what new Members should den Haak Campveer, Arne). m inlet), St. Joust's Island, [Mr. Bankes's name was necessarily included as be added. With respect to the observations of an and elm' of the Castle of Rammekins. All the re the Mover of the Proposition.] , Hon. Baronet, it did not apply to the old Committee, maining f orce wruld therefore be applicable in the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER as two of its Members were for Ireland. It might be Er t instance to assist in the disembarkation of the denied the cogency of the argument of his Honnura- proper, however, to consider whether or not two troops, and cover the landing at the different points ble Friend, with respect to the prop r i e ty of constitu- should he added for Scotland. At all eve..ts the of attack. ting a Committee of persons who entirely concurred Committee of last Session should not be displaced, Q. What mind= of troops, including a propor- • in opinion. On the contrary k appeared to him more unless some specific charge were broughtagainst them. tion of artillery, &c. with the means thus disposeable, eligible to combine individuals of different sentiments, Could it be expected that Hon. and independent Gen- cal the navy und.etake to put on shore in one body in order that argument might be opposed to argil- tlemen would gratuitously devote their time to the at each place of landing, Supposing two attacks tO ment, and mind to mind, and the public service be- public service, if on such grounds they were to be ig- be made on opposite sides of the Istend at the same nefited by that elucidation of the public interest nominiousiy removed ? time ?—A. It must depend tiperi the number of 11 .t. which the collision would produce. 'With respect to i Mr. DENIS BROWNE expressed his readiness to boats employed upon the expedition, but frcm the the last Committee, he had never heard any objet- i defend himself and the other Members of the last proximity to the shore, a body of 5100 men might tion to its Constitution, except towards the close of , Com mittee from any charge that might be made be speedily landed, including a portion of light arta. the Session, when the Honourable Chairman of that : against them. lery. Vessels of any draught of water could not Committee expressed his opinion that the numbers ; Mr. H. THORNTON explained that no charge wed be employed on the side of Campveer, and off were too great. He should propose, in the room of i was made, except the impossibility of his Honourable East Capel, the landing, though perhaps practicable, i the Marquis of Lansdowne, to insert the name of the Friend's supposing that they could not act cordially seems not so good or certain. IHonourable Mr. Ward ; and he should also propose i together after several of them had shewn a disposition Q. As to the naval investiture ? A. is alread# to add the six following Gentlemen, two of whom to withdraw themselves. • answered in the reply to the lit query. were in the list of his Hon. Friend— The question was then put from the Chair. On ' Q. Supposing the weather unfavourable for a land- Mr. Petl, Mr. D. Giddy, Mr. Pattison, Mr. C. Dundas, Mr. the following Gentlemen being nominated for the ing on the first arrival of the fleet off the coast, is C. Wynne, and Mr. G. Howorth. Committee :—Mr. Banks, Mr. H. Thornton, Mr. what anchorages Cm the transports remain in safety Mr. H. THORNTON spoke of the conduct of the Biddulph, and Mr. Sturges Bourne, until the weether becotnes moderate ? A. Within last Committee. Some of the Gentlemen did not The three first were unanimously agreed to , • but, ' the banks ; but in ca-e of a gale it would be hazard- punctually attend, and a difference of opinion existed on the fourth, , ous for the transports, which are in general but ill which indivecl other Gentlemen to withdraw. He The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER i prepared to ride in the open sea. was, therefore, in favour of a new Committee. moved, as an amendment, the name of Mr. Hawkins* O. Can the investing force, ii this case, proceed i - Sir J. t:•EWPORT thought little benefit could be Brown. !on at once to blockade the island, leaving the army expected by the Public foal the Committee named ile - On this the gallery was cleared, and a division took to follow when it can ;or will the enemy have this the Right Honourable Gertleman opposite. If Gen- place, when the numbers were, i interval to draw re.iatorcemmts from the adjacent tlemen were' appointed Members of that Committee For the amendment, or for Mr. H. Brown .- 98 Igarrisons, and to be prepared to oppose the landing ? who were hostile to the purpose for which it was I Against it, or for Mr. Sturges Bourne - - 107 A . Th e li ne o f b att l e siiips m ty take their station in Majority against the Amendment •—9 . : formed, what could be expected ? He could not en- Strangers were not again admitted. We under- the mouth of the Scheldt, aril a division might be placed in the Rompoot Channel to guard the side of tirelv approve of Ilse list proposed by the Member on stand two more divisions took place, one in conse the floor, as no Gentlemen were named in it who ' Helvoetslu s quence of M. Leycester being nominated agains t • T Y : were Members for Ireland or Scotland. There i Q. 1k hat is the probable pciod which must elapse M r. Cevendis . ll, when the numbers were— were no parts of the United Kingdom where greater ! after the Beet appears off the coast, supposing the For Mr. Leycester - - Ins abuses had existed. He therefore hoped that some t For Mr. Cavendish - toil ! weather favourable, before the channels can bz buoy- Members would be added who were from those parts The other on Mt. D. Brown and Mr. Alderman . ed, and the investing force take up its blockading po of the United Kingdom. This was the impression Combe, when there appeared-- . 1 scions ? A. The channels must be buoyed, by an he was anxious to make on the House ; he was also For Mr. D. Brown - - 104 choriag vessels, before the ships can proceed to the anxious to protest against the principle laid down by Fur Mr. Alderman C °robe - 117 place of disembarkation, and we must calculate that Majority against Ministers - 13 the Right Honourable Gentleman, of the propriety the landing cannot be made before 49 hours atter the of forming the Committee of Gentlemen di ff ering in The House then adjourned at Eleven o'clock. arrival of the fleet. The latter part, respecting the --. politics. . Little good could, in his opinion, he ex- blockading positions, is already answered. petted from a Committee composed of such hostile EXPEDITION TO THE SC HELDT . Q. Supposing the enemy should be found within materials. the island in greater force than was expected, and PAPERS LAID ervoite nOTII HOUSES 01: PARLTAMEVT Mr. BATHURST, unless some reasons were as- i that after the men of war and transports have signed, could not vote for the exclusion of any man - LAST NlUlll'. 1 taken up their positions for effecting.practicable, or a debarkation, No. I.—INTELLIGENCE. I of the old Committee. He saw no impropriety in ICe. I.—isnswers to Questions put by -- to two confidential the landing should either be found i mpracticable, forming a Committee, consisting of Gentlemen who - persons. ; having been attempted, shall have been failed in, differed in politics, provided a proper balance existed. „Ist. Q. The amount of troops on the Island of could the ships maintain those positions for any length He could nut agree that the Members of it should be WalchtTen, and how distributed I—A. To the best of :of time, the enemy being in possession of the coast, selected all from one side or from the other. He had their judgments, -on inspection, and from what they ' . or could they with the same wind they entered be formerly voted against the addition of certain Mem- could learn, there might be about 3000 troops in that i withdrawn to an anchorage out of reach of the ene bers to a CoMmittee, because he th ought that if the island, 2000 of which marched into Flushing on the my's fire, or could they pOt to sea ? A. The landing principle on which it was proppsed to add those Mem- Bth instant, and were chiefly composed of Prussians, must be successful—the retreat would be extremely bens were acted upon, the Members of Committees and that 12,000 other troops were shortly expected, hazardous, and could not be effected without gr.:at might be gradually augthented from 15 or 21, to which it was said were to be encamped in the neigh- . loss. 40 or 50. . bourhood of West Capel. That the military duty at Q. Can the requisite pilots be obtained, or can ti, - Mr. BANKES had no idea that it would be Flushing, Middleburg, and Campvere was perform- : Navy undertake this part of the service without ta e - thought, from the list he had submitted to the House, ed mostly by the Burghers, in consequence of a very aid I—A. Pilots may be obtained—we cannot do that he wished all to go one way. He should be very severe and generol sickness, prevailing, as it was sup -1 without their aid; but if small vessels are placed in sorry if any Gentleman thought so ill of him. A posed, from the badness of the water. They unde r. ' t he channels, so g reat a number will not be rc q uirei. more impartial list, he thou=ohld not be formed. stood that the deaths at Flushing were on an average I Q. What interruption to th e blockading force may He had taken them from& t parts of die House, 30 per week, and that a full hidf of the inhabitants ibe apprehended from the enemy's fleet in the Texel; and thrown in as many as he could of those Gentle- were affected with the sickness. or from the flotilla patsing along shore from 13011.• 1i meh, who he believed acted from their own opinions, '2d.—Q. The State of Defence of the town of logne , or elsewhere during the operation ?A. None Gentlemen whom. he had reason to believe would do Flushing towards the Land, and towards the Sea 1— from the Texel - with westerly winds, and die 8 010 their duty. None of them it could be supposed were A. Flushing is very strong in batteries towards the logne flotilla must be guarded against by an ade. under his cootroial, and he assured the House that he sea, which are mounted with large brass guns ; but : quate force. The inland navigation about Wal had nut consulted one of them Ten the subject. that towards the land side they could not epunt more : cheren, however, furnishes great numbers of craft of Mr. FULLER was of opinion, that whether the than 18 guns ; and that they s aw no artiller y corps , easy draught of water, and very fit to be converted Committee had consisted of 15, 20, 25, or what not, ' in that town. ; into gun-vessels, of which the enemy would most it had not done its duty :.as one of the purposes for 3d. Q. The Number, Class, and present state of , likely avail himklf; We must guard also a g a i nst which it had been appointed, the abolishing of sinecure the s hip s of war ? 'Where they are placed ? Whether ' the arrival of succours from Helvoetsluys by ale in places on the death of their present possessors, had they could easily be removed or destroyed ? What , land channels. never been answered. Having omitted to do that , proportion of land force would p robabl y be necessar y! . • The 1.13 t referred to nit returned. they had not done their duty. had not fulfilled the for the service ? — A . In the bason or docks, there No. S.—Additional Queries put to Sir Luaus SaussAatz and; expectations of the people. He hoped, however, that are six two deckers (new) with the lower masts stan- Captain Dims, with their conjoint answers thereto. that evil would not continue to exist much longer.— I ding, and just coppered. Orders are lately artivedl Q. What facility will there be for putting the When he brought forward his motion on that subject, f to expedite their equipments, which they seem busily `troops on shore, could the ships silence the batte r ies he trusted that every honest man, of whatever party I effecting. On the 10th inst another two decker was which would bear upon the landing-place ?A. At he might rte, would give him his support. I admitted into the bason to be coppered, and one more the spot where the landing of the troops would be Lord A. HAMILTON observed, that the Corn - I was shortly expected for the same purpose. There proposed, the water is of sufficient depth to allow of mittee had now existed during three years, and he was lis also one frigate lately launched, and in nearly the ships to approach near enough to the shore to scour yet to learn whether any thing had been done as to 1 same state of forwardness as the large . ships ; but no the beach and silence the batteries. There are sand the reduction of offices. other vessels of any consequen ce are in the bason.— hills at the place which would afford protection to The SOLICITOR. GENERAL took a general In the roads of Flushing at anchor are one fri g ate, the enemy from the fire of the ship.. It would be view of the state of the question. As far as relates and two brigs complete for sea. So far as they adviseabk to make a feint at the Point of East Capel to number, he was for the greater, and would prefer ( ) could form a judgment, it appeared to with one fourth of the force, and when the main body a Committee of 21 persons to one of 15 . The next them very p racticable to destro y or remove•all the of the army had established itself on the island, that question was, whether or slot the greater part of the ships in the b ason ; but the y consider themselves in. reserve might be landed near East Capel. Members who were of the Committee lest Session competent to judge of the force necessary for that Q. What number of seamen could be given to should be removed ? Supposing an equal portion of t purpose. In.goiug into Flushing Roads, the only forward the guns on shore till horses could be landed ? honour and integrity to be possessed by the Gentle - bat ter y of c onse q uence is on the left, and these is suf- A. A number adequate to the service required. men whose names appeared in the two lists, yet still ficient depth of water for any ship to go as near as Q. Would the force stated in answer to query Ist be sufficient to prevent the passage of reinforcem ents , it must be acknowledged that experience on the sub - they please. - On the other side of the island of Wal jest, which was in so high a degree necessary, gave cheren it appeared to them that the weakest p art lies supposing the land batteries to be in possession of th e troops ? A. Of this there can be no doubt. the Committee of last Session an advantage over that between West Capel and Leone Point , as they call proposed, and was a fair ground of preference. On it, (as I have no map at hand , Ia am unable to rectify , of the whole army be attempted ? A. Near to Zont- Q. What part of the island should the one la n di ng what grounds were those Gentlemen to be removed ? names) where they think a lan ding might be easily Why, on a personal charge brought against them, effected. At the West Capel is a battery of seven land, between it and Dykeshook, with the rem a i n i ng accusing them of having been hostile to the purposes guns, and at Leone Point another of eight guns, de- three fourths. for whichlhey were appointed. To the propriety of tended by fifty men each ; they were in the latter , Secret Intelligence front Flushing. such a decision he never could subscribe, because such battery. Off Leone .Point lie 20 g a l liots of ei g ht ' 1 [This Number consists of a detailed statement of nn sent iments were imputed to them by one individual. guns each , and a g un bri g of 10 or 12 g uns. Two the ships and batteries at Flushing.] To remove them he contended would under such cir- miles above these, and in Campvere Roads, is the No.4.—Letter from Captain Boxya to Captain D u ws, dated cumstances be casting a stigma on them for personal Growler gun brig, lately lh his Majesty's service, and ! his Majesty's sloop Skylark, off Slops, 2d, 1802. unfitness and improper conduct. In justice to them on the east side of Campvere harbour is a battery of Sir—Pursuant to your orders T this day reconnoi. the Hon. Gentleman ought to bring f orwar d ape ., f our guns. in the harbour is the Ramon:, a French tred Flushing in his Majesty's hired armed cutter t 'ever. see vic I x ,.nef . amen petag to I r jiwitl Gent to th: preSe 1 WV( Ong s be o mew e dent legit I, and ie oat I are IT of a:J 11. epic to tl ; lira to f it the e, r- A l .l attl ri ne Ir.l he un he ve to te n- ht ft ny it ro- ch )re 1 m- ats ler gas P. en- to gh to f 0 of cc lily a 4 t to es rhe a 'en- di lore pc ring to ,ime P ject, ct opi- of PA'll 9 Si, 11 tO not g lien g tin. IT ?oh n. use JE sent sub ▪ ei pro whi th cli 1' ppre [cll 0 place• 'ubh vie% ivce al di pecta R re al h r Lion t. !stint' ach t the to b refore to t ll4 grant . Unt e su ecso I