Star. — London, England, 1814-11-19 00:00:00

HOW OF COMMONS. Mr. TIERNEV coniimualion) wished to: ro .if: 'was to be underirsed, that the whole of Os; 4krsey Lxtraordinaries, ei elusive of what may be it ichrtetti . at the present moment, was included in the . 9.000,0(X) now on the table .? [The Chazieellor 0 the Exchequer answered (4-Yes."] He was very glad: that it was so. He saw no great use in detain the Committee ; for, to do them justice, they do hear with a great deal of complaisance, the propositions of the Right Honourable Gentleman. He only wished, that they would not vote money so as t 6 eneoitrage applications without the fbllest production of dont- Ments. The amount of the estimates hird been given! to Ministers in a Vote of Credit, beyond which they had no right to go one sixpence. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained, in answer to the question of Mr. Tierney, whether the whole expense of the Extraordinariei was included in the £19,000,000 ? that what he • meant to say was, that he believed the whole amount would cover the excess, and every sum except the items before the House. The Right Hon. Gentle man complained, that the expensei for which the House"was now called upon to provide, as they must have been known to Ministers previous to the close of the late Session, had not• before been submitted to Parliament. He bad to observe, that all the engage menis entered into by his Majesty's Ministers (with the exception of those relating to Hanover), badbeeu communicated vb both Houses in the late Sessions, and had received the sanction of Parliament. The treaties concluded with Russia, Prussia, Austria, and Denmark, were theti made known ; and be was sue prised, under such circumstances, that on this ground complaint should be made. Theeßight Honourable Gentleman wished to impose upon Ministers terms which were rather too hard to be patiently endured by any human being ; for he bad said, that with him impossibility would not excuse their not having done whit he could wish to see accomplished. The im -6t making up the accounts would not sa • usff hitrefoi their not being produced. Mr: TlERNWitleciared he had said nothing of • the kind, and *Ma thank the' Right Honourable • Gentleman noeetrput words into his mouth which he had never uttered. He had said, if it was impos sible to produce accounts of the whole £10,000,000 expended in the Army Extraordinaries, that was no reesosa why a part of them should not be produced. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the grant he asked was to cover expenses which had already been incurred, .and which, whether Mi nisters could justify their conduct op not, must be paid by the country. Whatever their conduct might be, he hoped, when the proper time came, they should be able fully to justify themselves ; but what ever it should prove to have been, and whatever pu nishment they might hereafter be exposed to, the sums called for must be paid. Ministers certainly made this demand on their Nun responsibility ; and, in his opinion, it was for the advantage of the public that it should be made now, leaving it -pen to Par . Bement to institute, at any subsequent period, sech inquiries into the conductof himself and his colleagues as the case might appear to require. He was glad the Right HonouraLle Gentleman admitted that the work they had had in hand was done. Since he ac knowledged it W4b done, it ought be paid for. Mr. TIERNEY denied having said the work was done. He bad said he hoped it would be done, and that the Congress of Vienna would definitively com plete the work of peace. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was glad the Right Hon. Gentleman had given this explanation. He had said there was a great differ ence between paying and talking about it. He hoped he would admit he had said this. After what had been accomplished he trusted the House would see the propriety or paying now. The Right Hon. Gen tleman would hereafter have many opportunities of talking about it—(a laugh.) He had to offer a few observations upon another subject, which had been touched upon by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He (Mt. Tierney) had asked, with respect to the Hano verian troops, why they were not to be paid by Hann wee These troops, he had to state, were employed by us in the same way as any other troops, taken into our pay fee the accomplishment of British objects, and had therefore as eauthliight to look to England for pay as the Bavariles, Wirtembergers, or the soldiers • of any country we might subsidize.- When Hanove . Tian troops wereemployed in any way for the benefit • of Hanover, for such benefit Hanover must pay.— By the Convention made subsequent to the treaty of Chaumont, only the four great Powers forming the grand alliance had been called upon to keep a body of troops on foot till the fate of Germany was de cided. None of the minor States had been called upon to do this. Bavaria, Wirtemburgle and other countries, more considerable than Hanover, had not been required to bear any part of their expense—and there exists, therefore, no reason for calling upon Hanover to take a share of it to hereself. He had before explained the causes of Hanover being erected into a kingdom. He did not know that it was neces sary to say more on the subject. It was a matter which did not concern England, as by making Hano ver a kingdom she gained no additional claim on this • country. The name of an Electorate, in the present situation of Germany, was objected to, and it had become inappropriate where the Sovereignty was no longer elective, and where in consequence !here no longer remained Electors. He had been a little sur prised at the observations made with respect to our paying the Russian fleet, which had been so long on our harbours or co-operating with our navy. N.- th'ng had given the people of this country confidence in the alliance formed between England and Russia, se much as the circumstance of that fleet being con• fided to our care.. Nothing could more strongly ' pledge'the Eraperof Alexander to the magnanimous petseverance which'had bee'n crowned with such glo rious results, eed, Ander all circumstances to dispose him to continue the .war t.) the last extremity. No • money to be paid by the pe)ple of this cournry would, in his opinion, be paid with greater cheerfulness than that voted for the payment of the Russian fleet. • Mr. BARING observed, that on this question of the Army Extraordiniries, the details were insuffi cient for any explanation, aed that when laid before the House they would appear to be merely statements of eainituissaries' drawing to suclf and such an erne 'min Unless he was misinformed, he believed nn account from 1307 till now had been audited and ex mined, either on the affairs of the Mediterranean,, thirPebinsula, or America. Ide should be happy to; this denied, but he should move for papers et= story of that subject. He believed that the lot of the Exchaqder had little more infor mation on the subject to communicate than other Members. Even the name of the great hero who commanded in the Peninsula ought not to stand in the way of examination into the accounts of the Com missariat. A chief feature of the expenses was for mules, for which the furnisher received certificates of service. Suppose a Spanish army landed in Wales, and carrying OR war among the mountains, should give similar certificates; what would be done with them Conceive then, what the Spanish muleteer would do with them. In fact, he sold them at 50 or 60 per cent. discount. If a Committee were ap pointed to examine, it would be found that the fur nisher received not• more than a third of what was ..._.._. ..„. paid by the British public. These certificates were I bought up at a discount, by which means enormous fortunes had been made in Spain. He could bring persons to prove this statement. He had seen a man two or three days ago who had made 55 per cent. by the purchase of this paper, which was yet to be bought at from 25 to 27 per cent. discount. He would ask what Government could have been about year after , year, when such transactions were going forward ? The difficulties had, in fact, arisen out of the very system. Ten millions had been expended when five, millions might have served, particularly if specie could have been brought forward. Even with all the specie that could he gotten in the last twelve months, paper had sold at a large discount in Spain. Every _means had been used tt lower and vilify the paper. He was very . lately told by a person that he could still buy up mule certificates at 2S per cent. discount, but was afraid of the many forgeries. muleteer did not know what to do. with the piper, and sold it for what it would (kelt." The great fault was, a total want of the examination dfaecanhts•— How would such delay tell in the private coneerus.of any individual or company? In pubes? 44 1 9*" ever examination was put off, so itobe on the axe rage from twelve to fifteen years of - arrears ; and then people could only justify themselves bilnustering up an old document, or, perhaps, by , having preserved their different vouchers. The first 'thing to be done in this matter was to establish a Committee, to form a proper and adequate system for the., regulation of large expenditures. The war in Spain began in 1808, and it was only in 1813 that an auditor was sent out, till when, he was told, that the Commissioners defied any examination. It therefore appeared absolutely necessary, that examination should be had, and a bet- ter system adopted. Mr. GORDON said, that as he understood by what fell from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we were paying a subsidy to Sicily, which, he also understood, was engaged in war with Naples, with which latter Power, as far as he could learn, we were virtually at peace. It, therefore, seemed extraordinary to subsi. dize Sicily its a war between her and Naples. We appeared desit ous and anxious to get rid of our money to one power or another. The only hope of economy he had was in his Right Honourable Friend on the Treasury Bench ( Mr. Huskisson), who had been such an advocate for retrenchment, and who, he trusted, wouid give good advice to his colleagues. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that certa inly the affairs of Europe .were net settled till the business of the Congress was finished. He could not see how a Committee of that House could settle the audit of the public accounts. It the House could have done it, it would have done jilting ago. It was a particular object of Mr. Pitt, His Noble Friend the Marquis of Lansdowne had done as much as he could to effect it, when in office ; and all must remember the assiduous efforts of an Hon. Gentletnan (Mr. Bankes). It was not the fault of that Hiurse that the detects existed. Commissaries in Spain had sent in their accounts. How far it was in the power of auditors here or abroad to obtain perfect information, he could not pretend to say. There might be very considerable fraud lying under the shape of even fair vouchers: but he hoped and trusted that no pains and no exertions would be wanting to examine and to unravel the whole business to the very bottom. He was surprised to hear any thing like general reflec tions thrown out on the Commissariat. It was an arduous duty, and it would be a painful return to the conscientious and deserving to be classed among those on whom suspicions might fall. He held the character of a Commissary to be a most honourable one, and deserving, it well sustained, of the highest reputation. There should be some discrimination' between objects of praise and of censure. Govern ment would he fully repaid, if by the examination, truth was stripped from falsehood, and integrity from dishonesty. It was an observation of Mr. Burke, applicable to this case, that the councils of necessity were seldom wise. He hoped, however, that the sys tem on the whole would be found good ; though from want of a previous system, sufficiently digested and established, there might have been some expen sive arrangements. There was no doubt that the expense had been greater than it would have been, sc,tild we h tve procured cash ; but yet, in spite of all untoward circumstances, the exchange continued im proving. Nothing shewed more clearly the vigour and prosperity of British commerce. Whether we should hare such. another war as the last, Goo only knew ; and might Gon avert ! The difficulties at tending the war with America he had never hidden; yet it'could not press particularly upon our resources, as in the case of the late European war. Our penin= sular debts v;L: had nearly ascertained; and there appeared to remain about seven or eight millions of dollers. Mr. BARING, in explanation, remarked that the abuse was inseparable from the system. A Commis sary hired a muleteer for a bit of paper, and then some friend of his, or any other man, bought it for a third of its nominal value, and brought it as a good docuthitt to Somerset•house, and by this sort of traffic immense fortunes were made. This practice had tree carried 'to an enormous extent. Five mil lions, he repeated, might have answered the objects of ten.. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated, that' three or four Commissaries had delivered in their accouhts ; but he not s.iid that those ac counts had beet audited or examined. As to the difficulties respecting, public accounts, if they were to believe the Right hon. Gentleman, examination was impracticable. frolv did all the other Powers of . . Europe pioceel in Such matterrt He believed they were very particular and careful at That subjeet.--", nowt was-it in Indian affairs tln them, an accounts .were ex.imined and audited under the management of persons conversant in business, as correctly as in the private concerns of any Merchant. This was a species of absolute safety, compared to the loose sys tem of our public expenditure. Mr. Burke liming been mentioned, he recollected an observation of his on this point. He said he would as soon attack the prerogatives of the Crown as the Treasury oa the mode of making up their accounts. Mr. RO iE entered into a statement of the steps taken by Mr. Pitt for better auditing the . public ac counts. The process had been since his time gradu ally amended, and nuw scarcely admitted of addi tional improvement. At any rate, Government had no possible motive for screening any Commissary guiky of peculation. Mr. BARING mentioned, as an instance of the intolerable delay which took place in auditing the public accounts, that the accounts of the late Sir Brook Watson were not settled to this day. He ascribed the difficulty of improvement in this branch to the pertinacity of some people in protecting their little interests in the observance of certain antiquated forms at the Ex.elsequer. No country in Europe kept its accounts in the same slovenly manner as this. Mr. BANKES also thought our system of audit far from being perfect, and clogged with various un necessary forms. This was so much the case, that in the Exchequer words and figures were constantly used which even those most versant in the offize did not know the meaning of. The House should never rest satisfied till it arrived at that perfection in the triode of audit which was visible in any great Mer chant's counting-house. ' Mr. ROSE observed, in explanation, that the Ex chequer process did not apply to accounts until they had been audited. It, therefore, could be no cause of the delay. Mr. PONSONBY remarked on the unsatisfactory mode in which this immense grant of eight millions was proposed. Suppose it to be voted, and also that they were. afterwards asked why ?—the only answer they could give was, that it was to be paid for mili , .tary expenses. There was one paper on the table purporting to be an additional article to the Treaty with Sweden, dated so far back as October, 1815— and though it stipulated a large subsidiary allowance to that Power, this was the first day any notice had been taken of it. There was another thing which struck him as most extraordinary. Halt the former •aubsidy, we were told, .was still to be paid to Sicily, 'because she was not at peace. Were we, then, to pay that Government a subsidy, because, from some team or other, with which we had no connection, it still chose to remain at war ? At present, he sup posed. the war was between Sicily and Naples ; but were we not at peace with the latter ? or what pas s ible interest had we in such a war ? By whom, klsa, he should be glad to know, if the stwement could be made with propriety, was the sum for the mainte• nanee of the fifteen thousand Hanoverians now- in Belgium to be paid, as he understood from the Chan. cellor of the Exchequer that it was,not to fall ulti mately either on this country or on Hanover ? Ile hoped it was to be paid by Holland, or what the newspapers now called the kingdom . of Belgium.— The Dutch, in his opinion,' ought not to receive too much assistance from• this comfy. They should rely na their own resources, and not be taught to throw the burthen of their protection upon England. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, in reply, that the additional article to the Swedish treaty might certainly have been before the House long ago, and he could only ascribe its non. appearance to some oversight. The substance of it, however, as well as the substance of the supplementary treaty of Chaumont, was stated to the House in the last session As to Sicily, oar treaty with that Go. vernment went on totally different principles from those which intitienced cur engagements with the continental powers. The King of Sicily had lost Na ples through his adherence to our alliance, and we had heace been led, not only to maintain a large farce in that island, but also to subsidize the Government.— The treaty of 1809 v. ith that power WAS made to con tinue during the war in which it was engaged with Naples; and as that war still subsisted, the Sicilian Government still considered ittell entitled to some subsidiary assistance till an arrangement was made. Naples had signed no more than an armistice with this country.—Mr. PONSONBY explained. Mr. WHLTJ3READ expressed his satisfacti6n, that the subject now before the House had produced the discussion which had taken place, because the country must necessarily contribute with greater cheerfulness when they saw that burthens imposed on them underwent the scrutiny-of that House. Many relevant and important topics had been introduced, and few could be more so than the subject of the au dit of public accounts. To that, however, be would not now advert. He wished to call the attention of the Committee to one consideration, with respect tO which the Right )-Ton. Gentleman had, in his opinion, furnished very insufficient information. He meant with respect to the King of Naples. (Some rurlarize ow: here indicated.) He meant not the King of Sicily, as it seemed to be supposed ; but, eo moraine, the King of Naples. Would not the Committee be surpriied to learn that at the very time when we were subsidizing the Government of Sicily to enable it to carry on War lagainst the Government of Naples, we had already loitered into engagements with the latter. The Right Honourable Gentleman had stated, that Austria was the only European power which had concluded a peace with Naples. He might have added, that this treaty was a treaty of peace and alliance ; and that I we were moreover pledged by our Minister to the Neapolitan Government, that if the King of Sicily should refuse to accept indemnities for his Neapolitan dominions, the treaty between him and this country should be at an end (hear, hear.) Thi she knew to be correct ; he bad it upon authority in which he placed the fullest confidence. We were thus paying Sicily with one hand to carry on war against Naples, whilst with the other we *ere signing an engagement to compel Sicily to abandon that war (hear, hew, hrar.) All these things were well understood on the Conti nent, although withheld by Ministers from the House of Commons. [Here the Chancellor of the Exche quer signified dissent.] It the Right Honourable Gentleman was. unacquainted with these circum stances. he innst.lament the want of confidential com munication among Migisters themselves. Tile tn. . . cnnistalces were ttndoubteelly strange, tut 'diet; 'er e nevertheless true. What was the original principle out of which•our relations with Sicily had Arian ? It w.ss the political security of Europe; and it was in consideration of its tidelityand adhei ence to its engao:- me:its with ibis country, that we had guaranty ed to the Crown of Sicily the security Of its mint dominions. He would not then stop to unveil the mystery that hung over the history of the protection *Marin were bound to afford to the Royal Family of that kieni. —One member of it, the Queen herself, seas known to have been expelled, and to - haft die/ An to.ile in a foreign land. All these thisigs, however requnod explanation ; and if the !debt Honourable Gentle. man was incapable of furnishing it, he regrotted that he should know so Buie of the secrets el hie cola leagues. He conceived, too,that the Comm:item:ea to have been informed as to the 'nature of our en- - gagements with Belgium,—lebether it was truly sus. eel, that the repair and re.establishment of the for tresses in that country would cost the sum of tin avl. lions ; and if so, v.hether they tette to be tepatrcd. at our exp , :nse? The Right Honeutablt Gentleman lied thought proper to treat the allusion to Hanover as a matter of mere indifference. The change in the feria of its Government was undoubtedly so, if discenaect. ed wits the circumstances that attended it. The Right Honourable Gentleman said, there had henna* universal call among the people of Hanover foe a king. To this he had added, by way of j .!le, and is. successful as it was; he 'had appeared as fond of it as a hen with one chicken s that there could be no Elec tor wherethe.lunctnt of selecting had ceased. How ever ibis might be; he, could mention : e rne places where there were elected Without any electors.—(if laugh.) The Riglir Honourable Gentleman so seldoot condestendet to joke, that he weld not, however se rious the subject, refrain from stopping one moment to notice this anomaly in his proceedings. , ;the tree cause of the transformation of Hanoves into a kiag dom he apprehended was, that all the other German Princes having got new dignities, did not think fir to lay them down, and so persuaded the Hanoverian Court to follow . their example. It reminded him. of the table of an animal, who, proposed is: an ageolbly that they should all cut off thsir, tails, when it was discovered upon enquiry that the proposer was the only animal without °le. Mut was it not a matter of serious consideration, if HAllovet, by gaining new ter. ritory and aggrandisement.shoold be yet nate likely than before-to lead this coantry into continental em. bartassments.—( Hear, hear.) He s.bould remain sa tistied if he saw but the sligntest prospCet heldotit of ' the money being ever repaid ; hilt otherwise he illil:t assume it as granted that it-was gone for evet:s Tde Right Honourable, Gentleman had at length .b• gun to talk of America, as if we were engaged m a frielist ful contest. Stich as it was, however, we were fairly in it, and the battle must be fought as it bekame the character of this ?ountry to fight herbitdes. But at such a time as this, and (Us such net-occasion, was it becoming in Ministers to withhold inspoetan; intelli gence upon the subject of .that contest ? He did un derstand that they had been fortreight hours in pos session of dipafches front Sir Creole Prevost, and *that the retreat from . Plattsburgh- has. lien attended in one- point of view with a very . .serinos-dis. aster, although there had been no eugegemenr. kle had no dispesitioa to blame. ellicers before enquiry, and still less beiore their own rtncialaceotrals . were received. The accounts were no i ie reeeiied; and' why, therefore, Were they ctucealed ? • -114ritel-liteisiutrr. toed that Sir George l'revdet croliesi t h e fentdiert with 12,000 men ; that, after- the failure of the: enter prise, he marched in two days Over a-C .untry ellich bid 'occupied six in his advance 4, thit he lost in diet short time 2600 men by deiertion ; and that these men were not militia, but Wellingtonians, •distin guished by that appellation, as having gained s: :nu zli honour in the Peninsular war. If this was not the fact, he should be Nippy tee hear steontradictiori. It wait furthe'r represented to Mil', that the minds et the people of Canada were in a state of inflammation, and that there was one general perseasidn, that Eke m eal of Sir George krevast ,was indispensably .ptces rhiry to their safety.. 'lle apprehended, therefore, tot this American war was likely to be a fit sequel, to that which was just concluded, in point of expenie;. and it was not too much toisk, thirerOre, for all die information in the power of Ministers to comlnudi cate. Now that, by . a memorable change of events, Peat power,,which.had,alone remained neutral, whilst every ether power was belligerent, and had now be come belligerent, whilstevery other poWer was nen tral in the contest ;* he trusted-that the same Conduct wllichle.land observed towards America in her neu. tral;ty, would be criairstaiped tower -Is ,the other States of EuroFie,. now that they had assumed the same Cheraittrr. • -•• i' o The CHANCELLOR of- tie-EXCHEQUER. observed, that the Hon. Gentleman appeased to con• cider himself IQ n ucla better informed than himself of political occurrences, ihat be 40Uld hardly think it necessary to reply to the' questions put by hid'.-- Whether the eiiiiimitiit&s stated with respect to the relations between .thiterountee and N'stples were Mr. reedy stated or Dor t .' he: hilt it• his duty to abstain from disclosing. ,As tp tile dispatch from Sir George Prevost, as mych would be pablishedfroan them to• morrow as was coniistent se Oldie delicacy due to die Situation of the cornmanding oricert ifear, IYar.' Mr. PONSONBY.-“• Bure•ly it theacoonats st.e.:t to have been• received bye my Hon. Friend are tali •. it is easy to say titcy are f.alse. It cannot ha invr.- per to relieve thi prhlic anxiety. under such circum stances. To Say e.lit'llier 2000 men lure dese:l. l or not call betray no seitet. (Year, hear.) I win' the liberty of putting a question to the Right 1 - 1' • Gentleman. I heard.witbin the last few liuurt, t! •: the army under General Drummond had been LL : ~, .: to abandon the siege of Fort Erie with diw.:,... the most disastrous toss ;' is this the case or is a The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIiEi. —" With respect to the desettion asserted t ..:. • • taken place on the retreat of the army five: in . • burg, the fact is not mentioned in Sir Ge..:, , i•:" rost'l dispatches ; it nvey be inferred, there:, re , 1 • ' the fact is not so. As to the report of the TO ,t ', General Drummond hom before Post Elie. • ' 1 ' the retteat goes, it is true ; but the statement Li - " estrous loss and disgrace is not correct." The Committees of Supply and Ways at,'. v , ' ' were then fixed for Monday. and the House .1•;; '• ned at Nine o'Cloek. _ _ - ; LONDON ibritted Inas Km? inciTirr.c., ity L poltstied time, ad at as Mac yairl Temple kar.