Star. — London, England, 1810-02-24 00:00:00

HO ÜbE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 23. It is finally settled that the Committee on the Tonnage and Police Bills of Dumfries, shall meet on Tuesday next, the '27th instant, at twelve o'clock. Sir FRANCIS BURDi.',TT gave notice, that he meant to call the sttent! , lZ3 of the !louse on Thursday to the proceedings against Gale Jones. Mr. 1 - 1 MARTIN, at the request of Mr. Whitbread, post poned his notice relative to the Finance Resolutions to Monday fortnight, for the purpose of acceleiating the Inquiry into the Scheldt Expedition. Mr. WHITBREAD stated, that he believed his Honourable Friend (Mr. Alderman Combe) not at present in the House, would have no objection to postpone his motion, if necessary, for the above-mentioned purpose. Mr. SHERIDAN presented a Petition from Mr. Farquharson, complaining of oppression on the part of the Eenchers of Lincoln's Inn, in refusing to admit him as a Student, on account of his baying once been a writer for a newspaper. Mr. Sheridan ad- Verted to a bye--law of the Society for this exclusion, which he characterised as not only illiberal and oppressive, but illegal and unconstitutional. As the Society w•-I4 not a Corporation, there was no other mode of redress than by an appeal to that House.— If this rule had been always acted upon, the Society to his certain knowledge would have deprived the Bar and that House of some of their greatest ornaments. he complaint of Mr.Farquharson had first appeared in a respectable morning print in the shape of letters to the Lord Chancellor, which letters had since been col lected into a pamphlet. The Lord Chancellor, however, he was happy to state, was too liberal to have any concern with the affair. The regUlation in question had, in tact, been tendered to the Lord Chancellor's Society (the Middle Temple), and rejected. The Petition being ordered to lie on the Table, Mr. SHERI. DAN gave notice, that on Friday next he would submit a propo sition to the House on this subject. Mr. H. MARTIN stated, that he was not present at the Meeting of Benchers when the iileberal Regulation in question had teen adopted, and that he strongly disapproved of it. The only cuestion with him in his character of Bencher was, the moral cha racter of any person requiring admission. He also stated, that the Illation had been transmitted to the other Societies, and refused. Lord TEMPLE gave notice for an early day of as Address to his Majesty, to ascertain by whose advice he had given the Answer to the City of London Petition respecting the Scheldt Ispedition. ENGLISH CATHOLICS. Mr. WINDHAM presented the two Petitions of the English Catholics which were presented by Earl Grey in the House of Lords the day before. Mr. WINDHAM bestowed the highest encomiums on the Erghsh Catholics ; and argued, that in sound policy their disabi lities ought to be done away. T,:e Petitions were ordered to lie on the Table. PAP.IRS RELATING TO THE EXPEDITION, SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN PRESENTED TO THE KING BY LORD CHATHAM. Mr. WHITBREAD rose pursuant to notice, to move for whatever papers, memoranda, repoets, Scc. relating to the Scheldt Expedition, might have been presented by Lord Chatham to his Majesty. Those Members who were present at his Lordship's exa mination would recollect the questions put to him, and the answers—upon which the Address he meant to move, was founded. His Lordship had been asked as to the Narrative presented to his Majesty, on the 14th of February, and which was now on the table of the House : and he had also been asked, whether he had presented any other narrative, paper, report, or n.e. - neranda to his Majesty on this subject. After a good many questions put on this point, and a long tel ty on the part of his Lordship, he at last declined to give any answer at all—(Hear, hear). This in- Cue 'd a strong suspicion that he had presented more papers on this subject to the King; but as the witness w..s a peer of the realm, it was impossible to press the matter farther, after be had declined answering. Via Address, therefore, was, to request that his Ma jesty would be pleased to lay the other papers presen.i ted by Lord Chatham on the table, if any such exis ted. This at least was in the power of the House ; and it appeared the only way by which they could get at these papers. Mr. W H ITBREAD then gave a short summary of the history of this narrative. On the 27th of January the House had resolved to institute an inquiry into the policy and conduct of the Expedition to the Scheldt ; and it was not till the 16th of February that a e alant officer,a private friend of Lord Chatham, proposed, that an Address should be presented to his Majesty to bring the Narrative before the House. In his Majesty's speech at the opening of the Session, it was sail, that orders had been given to lay on the table such papers on this subject as would be thought satisfactory. Of this Narrative the Ministers could then have known nothing. It in fact did not exist as a Narrative at the time; and from Lord Chatham's evidence, it appeared, that Ministers did not know of it. Now, however, when it was ascertained that a paper had been presented to the King of which the Ministers knew nothing till a few minutes before it was given, their ignorance of the existence of other Papers could he no answer to this motion. There could be no dispute now as to the competence' of the House to move for papers not pre.sented in an official form. That, indeed, might have been doubt ed ; but the House had decided the question in the case of the Narrative ; and therefore there was no question upon that head. Upon the general prin ciple applying to Lord Chatham's conduct, in hav ing taken advantage of his situation as a Privy Councillor, to deliver in a paper of this nature to the King in an official form, it waa unnecessary to dwell. The theory of the Government, of which so much was said, did not warrant it ; and it was impossible that the practice could go on if such thing s were to be al -I,)wed.—(Loud cries (j . hour, hear, froin the Opposition beaches.) What was tile tender cy of the dispatches and the journal of Lord Chatham ? In all the dis patches from Walcheren, Bath a, and all the places where the chief operations were conducted, no impu tation hid been cast on the navy,,but, on the contrary, s proceedings had been mentioned in tetras of the most unqualified approbation.—(Heer,'hear.) In the Journal too, the delays and disappointments had been ascribed by Lord Chatham or the Quarter-master Gen e-1 to the weather, to the unfavourable state cf the ele ments ? But when the narrative appeared, it was found that in contradiction to the dispatches and the jour nal, an imputation was cast upon the naval part of the expedition, which put the two services directly at issue. It had been his wish and that of his friends around him, he believed, to keep clear of any thing that might occasion an unnecessary disagreement between the two services, and their questions had been shaped • with that view. In every case where every thing de pended on the co-<:peration of two services, there might naturally be some differences, from the impatience of one to proceed with a degree of haite utterly incom patible with the situation of the other. Such small .. _ pat disagreements depending entirely upon the want of 1 which would justify the House, in point of preccdent, perfect information in the one service, of all the cir- Ifor agreeing to such an Address. If such Papers cumstances bearing upon the other, might be prope r ly !existed, as they were private and confidential papers, ivaisecksver and ought to be forgotten. But when would the House wish to search the private escruteire • . Lord Chatham, the. Military Commander of the ge. of his Majesty ? — (Loud cries of Near , hear! from the H. pedition, had presented to his Majesty personally a Opposition Benches.) discretion, e thought that the House, paper containing direct imputations on the conduct of in the exercise of th eir would not call for the naval service, it had become utterly impossible that p rivate papers, if such , did exist; and he therefore the matter should be permitted to rest where it was. saw no grounds for the motion, and mu st oppose it. It was important to attend to other circumstances Mr. PONSONB Y said, that if the Right Hon. Se. connected with this narrative. What happened after cretary bad not concluded by saying he should oppose Lord Chatham's return to London ? While Lord the motion, he should really suppose that he had in. Chatham was in London, and the Ministers had tended to support it, for such was the tendency of complete access to all the information which he could, every observation which he had made. Hs began by or was inclined to furnish, they had replied to an ad - adm ittin g that it was the undoubted right of the dress of the City of London calling for inquiry, that House to present such an Address, and in that he en his Majesty had not thought it necessary to institute tirely agreed with him. But then the Right Hon. any inquiry into the conduct of the expedition, naval Gentleman said, that if the House were, in the exer or military. But if this narrative had been before cise of its discretion, to agree to such an Address, them, or any information of thisnature had been given, Ministers would not know where to find the papers ; it must have been impossible for them to have re- and he asked, were they to search the King's pri frained, if they had any regard to their duty, from vote escrutoire ? Was this language, or was this doe advising his Majesty to institute an inquiry at least trine for a British Secretary of State to hold to a into the naval part of the expedition. Mr. Whitbread British House of Commons ?—(Leud cries of Hear, then said, that he assumed, because it was not denied Hear !)—Was it to be said, that a Report of the by Lord Chatham, that his Lordship had presented Commander in Chief to his Majesty upon the Expe other papers to his Majesty on this subject. The ditiou now under enquiry, ought to be considered as silence of Lord Chatham warranted this assumption a mere private and confidential paper? (Loud cheer -(Hear, hear.) —and it was in order to enable the I ing ). If this be so, every other General who happens House to do itsduty properly, that these papers should ! to be a favourite, may at any time go up to the be produced. Ministers might certainly have been King, and privately put into his hand statements as ignorant of the existence of any such papers, as he tending to prejudice and poison his Royal mind was, till he put the question to Lord Chatham, a against the most brave and meritorious officers, who thing far from improbable, considering the discor- by this secret proceeding may have their characters dant materials of which their Cabinet was composed' most foully calumniated without the least notice or —(loud cries of Hear, hear) —and his Lordship might, i suspicion, and therefore without a possibility of de to any questions of heirs upon that point, have said', fending themselves. How galling must it be to the as he did last night, that he declined giving any an- , feelings of any distinguished Officer, to suppose saver. (Loud cries of Hear, hear.) But could they 1 that charges and imputations against him might deny, that other papers had been presented to his Ma-''bej poured in secret into the ear of his Sovereign, .jesty, besides the narrative ? If they could make such ; and the Royal mind thus prejudiced against him ? a denial, that was one way of deciding the matter ; (Hear, hear.) It would be subversive of every princi hut if not, then it became the duty of the House, to I ple of justice, or of the constitution, that such papers, insist upon the production of the other papers, if any I placed in the hands of the Sovereign by a Minister, such existed. (Hear, hear.) Now, continued Mr. should be conceived private and confidential papers, Whitbread, observe how the matter would have stood, 1 which the House could not call for. The Right Hon. if there had been no inquiry. All would have ap- , Secretary had been most bountiful in allowiag that Feared fair and open between the two services, on the , the House had a right to present such an Address if face of the public documents ; but still there would they thought proper ; but he said, that in the exercise have remained, lurking behind in the King's closet, a of this right the House must be governed by its dis direct accusation by the Military Commander, against cretion. Now he would wish to ask that Right Hon. the Naval part of the Expedition ; accusations, of Secretary whether, according to his ideas of discretion, the existence of which, those concerned could have he thought it was discreet to allow every Commander had no idea—and which, therefore, they could never in Chief the power of putting what reports he pleased have had an opportunity of repelling. (Loud cries , into the hands of his Majesty, without the House of of Hear, hear.) This was the system of favouritism— ! Commons exercising their right (which the Right a system, which was not only abhorrent to the nature Hon. Secretary allowed they possessed) of praying of the constitution, but one which a limited monarchy ' his Majesty to grant them copies of such Reports ? could not endure (hear, hear) ; and it had always (Hear, hear.) Of all the mischiefs which could flow been the complaint of those who wished that the from the access which Lord Chatham's sipation as democratical part should retain its due energy, that , Peer and Privy Councillor would give him to his the Royal Person was frequently surrounded by mi- ' Majesty, the greatest evil would be, that of his being nions, by whom his Majesty's best subjects were mis- allowed to pour into the Royal ear whatever charges represented and calumniated without the possibility of , he thought proper, against meritorious Officers ; and bringing the truth to the ear of the Sovereign. (Loud' that the House of Commons, when solemnly engaged cries of hear, hear !) He had a right to p re sume that .in Inquiry upon this Expedition, should be told that there were other papers ; and he had a right, under ; they must not be informed what those reports or do the circumstances, to presume farther, that these pa- ! cuments contained, which the Right Honourable Se pers contained direct charges against the navy (Hear, i cretary was pleased to describe as private and confi hear !), for the narrative, which was willingly pro- dential papers, merely because they had not been 1 duoed, contained every thing short of direct charges. sent (as they ought to have been) to the regular office I How far such charges might be well founded, would 'of the Government. If favourites are to have unli be a matter for future consideration. It had been 1 mited access to the person of the King, and are to be said, that the narrative was drawn up as early as allowed to give what statements they please in wri- I October—that it had been kept close till the other tang, and the House of Commons are not to see these day, and had not been shewn to Ministers till now. writin s, he really could see no difference between They had no opportunity of giving their opinions , their Monarchy and the most absolute Monarchy. 1 1 upon it—but a Cabinet Minister, the Military Com- He could not see that a purer system of fatvuritisat wander of the Expedition, communicated directly ever existed in the Monarchies of France and. Spain. with his Majesty upon a great public question, with- Lord Chatham yesterday told the Committee , that he out having thought it at all necessary to consult his had not mentioned the narrative to any of his C 01... colleagues. He had then a right to presume that pa- leagues, until a few minutes before he presented it at pens had been presented to his Majesty by Lord Chit- the Levee. He believed that there was hatedly an I ham, containing stronger accusations than those that instance of any Minister in this country ever conduc were to be found in the narrative. In justice then to tang himself to his Colleagues in such a manner. In the gallant Officer, Sir Richard Strachan—in justice this debate the person of the Sovereign and. his per to the Officers serving under him, and to the navy in sonal character and honour (for the honour of the So. general, he called upon the House to address his Ma- / vereign is connected with the honour of his Comman jesty for the production of these papers. (Loud cries ders) had been brought forward for the purpose of of Hear, hear.) Let the Ministers find them where- protecting a Minister who was supposed to be a fa ever they were—that was their business, and not that vourite. Did the Right Honourable Secretary mean 1 of the House. They would not, he hoped, be per- to say, that his Majesty would wink at the calumni- 1 mitted to cast upon the King the imputation of re- atom of so distinguished an officer as Sir Richard ' fusing papers, the production of which was essential Strachan, and that he could hear with indifference to enable the gallant Officers concerned to meet the imputations thrown against the Commanders of his accusations brought against them, as well as noes- navy ? Such a conduct would be as contrary to the sary to satisfy the public mind. The King could do honourable mind and feelings of our Sovereign, as it ' no wrong—the Ministers were responsible. The task would be perfectly consistent with the low, paltry, and of finding the papers rested with them ; he was sure contemptible cunning of some of his advisers. (Hear, 1 it was the proper task and duty of the House to agree hear.) If this motion was resisted, it was not from to the Address which he would now move. He con- tenderness to the feelings of his Majesty, but it was eluded by moving : e That an humble Address be to screen the imbecility of his Ministers, who knowing presented to his Majesty, requesting that he would that they were not able to defend themselves upon be graciously pleased to order that there be laid on their own merits, took every opportunity to introduce the table of the House Copies of all Papers, Reports, the person of their Sovereign to protect and screen Memoranda, &c. &c. delivered, by Lord Chatham re- their weakness and imbecility. lative to the Expedition to the Scheldt." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER' Mr. Secretary RYDER said, that he did not at- did not think that his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Secree tempt to question the right of the House to present tary Ryder) had exposed himself to those violent at such an Address to his Majesty, if they thought it tacks, and constitutional censures and animadver proper ; but he would contend, that, in the exercise I sions which had been thrown oui against him. His of that undoAbted right, they should always confine I Right Hon. Friend had distinctly stated that the themselves within the limits of discretion. There was House had an undoubted right to vote such an Ad- 1 one observation which had fallen from the Honour- dress, if they thought proper • but that the House able Gentleman on the close of his speech, which ap- should deliberately exercise their discretion before peared to him to be a full answer to all the observa- they came to such a vote. As to official papers, there tions which had preceded it. The Honourable Gen- I was no doubt at all but that the House was in the con tleman had himself been aware, that if the House stant habit of calling for them; but to what extent were to resolve upon presenting such .an Address, ' their discretion would allow them to call upon his Ma- Ministers would not know where to look for the pa- jesty for private and confidential papers was a matter pas alluded to. He bad no difficulty in stating ex- !of serious consideration. The Honourable Gentleman pressly that there neither were, nor ever had been any ' (Mr. Whitbread) had however said, that if Ministers such papers deposited in any of the offices of the Go- I had been in possession of Lord Chatham's narra vernmcnt, nor were'the Ministers apprised of the exis- i tive before they advised the answer to the City of tence of any such papers—(Loud cries of Hear, hear! i London, it was impossible that they could have given from the Opposition benches). The Narrative of that answer, or that they should not have thought Lord Chatham had not been communicated to Mi- that the Naval Commander ought to be put upon his nisters, nor were they apprized of its existence until trial. Now, he would declare, for his part, that if the 14th of February— (Hear, hear ! from the Opposi- 1 he had seen the narrative at that time, he should not tion benches) —and that was only a short time before have advised a different answer ; nor did he see in it was presented at the levee. He believed, however, 1 that narrative any thing which inclined him to think that no Addresses had ever been presented before to that any Court-Martial ought to be held on the Naval his Majesty on such occasions, except for the produc- 1 Commander. The whole argument of the Hon. Gen tion of official papers (which these were not), or 1 tleman proceeded on the assumption that papers did praying to be informed who advised his Majesty to . exist, conveying such charges as he supposed were any - Articular act ? He did not know any thing calumnious against the Naval Commander. Whe . . . lid ther there di . exist such papers, •he could not say ; but he was not conscious they did exist. All the impression .which the narrative made on his mind s, that foul weather and bad wi;ds premted ed ca! q u cir ini Cu lii T 1 th , )r)t 164 an Pa t4l S tn 4 jc, asi r 2. 1 114 na ex It hi to Wi Pe 1 . 1; or 13' Officer hewer every in the rativr offices official House, ritime he him: then . vise& such papers ha, -; piper) which had no character of official papers about them., and which, if they did exist at all, were merely com munitations made personally to his Majesty. If e thought the House would not call for the private and personal communications which had been made to his Majesty, and which could in no sense cr.shape be considered as offici:tl df,cuments. Mr. TIERNEY spoke in reply to the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and expressed his determination to vote for the Address. Sir HOME POPHAM.—ii I feel, Sir, that unless the proposed Address is supported by the decision of this House, and that the Papers alluded to are pro duced for its consideration and that of the country, much wrong will accrue where gratitude is owing ; I mean, to Sir Richard Strachan.—( Hear, hear!) I may be asked why it is I assume that such a paper is in existence ? My answer is, that its existence has not been denied, and therefore my assumption is correct. Let any one of his Majesty's confidential advisers deny that such a paper has been delivered by the Noble Lord, and the moment I am so informed, I shall cease to press the necessity of this Address; but, in the absence of that information. I call upon this House to sympathize in the feelings of my gallan t friend—wounded. as those feelings have been, by the production of the former paper. If, then, from that paper so lately presented to the House the character of Sir Richard Strachan has suffered ; how much mot, probable is it, that, in the papers kept out el view, he has been subjected to greater suffering, and to a more ag gravated reflection upon his character' (Hear, hear , —Let the House review the facts :—la the month o July an expedition was sent to the coast of Holland. From some causes, it did not succeed to the extent in which public expectation was warranted to indulge. An inquiry was instituted - by the House of Commons; numerous papers, some moved for, and others voluntarily laid upon its table. For 14 days 0 4 had the House proceeded in ' s investigation, whet we are surprised by a moti fan Honourable Ge neral (Loftus), the friend of- ord Chatham, calling for an Address to his Majesty, that he would be pleased to order_a narrative of that Noble Lurd, deli• vcred hilt the day before, to i ~? laid before the House. Would it not, I ask, be at least more lihcral, when the Noble Lord had determined upon such a purse of proceeding, to have, at all events, vresented it previous to the inquiry ?—(Hear, hear.) Is that the extremity of suffering to which my gallant Friend, the Naval Commander of the late Expedition, is sub jected ? Have we not reason to think that other documents, prejudicial to his high character, have also been presented in the same secret way ? (Hear, hear.) But we are told this is an assumption no: tenable upon good grounds. To this I unequivo cally reply, if no other papers were presented to h;; Sovereign by the Noble Lord, when the question WA's candidly put to him, how easy was it for him, if no such documents were delivered, to have answered in the negative ? (Load cries of hear, hear.) — The Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has stated, that he can by no means see in the narrative et the Noble Lord any reflection cast upon the charac of Sir Richard Strachan, or on that part of the naval force employed in the expe dition to the Scheldt. I venture to say, that such paper has thrown upon both a great and grievous re flection. (Hear, hear.) So feels the gallant and distinguished officer hipseli, and after what has been elicited from the examination of the Noble Lord (C tham ) last night, Sir Richard Strachan also fads the a vated situation in which he is placed; for as he himself says, ii How do I know, even if I repel all the charges conveyed against me in this narrative, that after all, a second and third document, simi larly. communicated, in fact edition following edition, will not be forthcoming." (Hear, hear.) Is this a proper state in which to leave a man who has de served so well of his country ? Is this the reward which this House would bestow, for a life devoted to the nation's service ? Deeply affected as are the feelings of my galladt Friend, he suffers not alone there is not an officer of his profession but sympa. thizes with him. Through all ranks of that profession it is the same, equally with those who have not interest to be employed, or with those whom ether causes have lately kept out of the actual exeric,e of proles ' sional duties. But if this House should lend itself it support of such conduct, it would not only affect th, living, but animate the dead • it would arouse in indignation even old Admiral i3enbow, and all those who gallantly imitated him, from their graves.. -- (4 laugh, and cry of hear !) This question, standing upon its own merits, cannot be benefited, and ought not to be injured by party feeling. It is a quesuon Of justice—of justice to a gallant officer, the idol of the service, covered with the honours bestowed by a grateful country, remunerated by the liber alit y of Parliament, and invested by his Sovereign w i t h are( ' ribbon, as a mark of his Royal favour. (Hear, hear.) —lt is for such a man, now labouring under such charges, as this narrative so communicated conveys that 1 appeal to the House of Commons. Can it re fuse to do him justice ? With what confidence, if such should be its conduct, could its Members look in the face of the people of England ? Could they say, who soliciting their re-electiori, 66 Constituents, support me iy again, voti o ng one aogfainwhst a eosecltrtain claims t:4dres your s preference ttehreenceeroism, drat deprived 4 gallant and deserving officer, illustrious r . w . . the naval part of the armament from co-ont.”.lt; r .. as far as had been expected ; and in c;;:, Ilie.‘:‘ was no charge or imputation agai nst the g:,ilat,t Officer who commanded the fleet. H e t h ought, 3 . tx however, that it would be too much to call ft r 0 1 every paper, private as well as public, which r: a•, in the possession of his Majesty. A s to t h e nai an g rative, that could be regularly prod uce d because- it row was in the office 9f the Secretary of Stat e ; b ut h e did - en 1 not see how any paper that never Was in any of the she upon offices of the Government, could be called for as an ought official paper. In the narrative which was before the fellee House, ,the Noble Lord merely stated his own case, the ll and left the Admiral to give his account of the ma- 06° ritime difficulties which presented themsel ves—atd rove he believed that the Admiral could perfectly justify ti e o himself in the state of the seas and the weather. If t he C then he had seen this narrative at the time that he Itcl- selati vise& the answer to the City of London, what, p o t t i ler n . th e thalar i s , advice could he have given?—(Hear, h e a r .) C ou ld le he have advised a Court-martial against the naval fiv e • Officer, when there was no charge made against him? Tact The question was now, whether the House wo u ld, itt . . ha ve • the exercise of its discretion, think proper to ca ll f or such papers as had never before been moved • which had no character of official papers about them, boat s and which, if they did exist at all, were merely corn- that , l munitations made personally to his Majesty. H e it: did ) thought the House would not call for the priv ate an d the s personal communications which had been m a d e to tultj r his Majesty, and which could in no sense cr.shap e b e - considered as offici:tl d f'cuments. e Mr. TIERNEY spoke in reply to the statement s of Ric 2 the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and expressed his fen t i determination to vote for the Address. ape he I Sir HOME POPHAM.—c , I feel. Sir, that unlp, the P 1( int ivi not adr he Offii The the It to! all ter U tb of bi Pi ti 1 $ a it d d Lc 1$ 11 c, a zc a- :sl. es itl in ht Da of a of ed ch re- c he LCD liII b 1 los I,