Star. — London, England, 1822-05-09 00:00:00

-- ' - -,,,.f 1. 11!. ,!i ll' ~: _ . »_.~ _ \ 40 4 % Isb abundance of the areitt ‘01" 4 04 former certainly. As well might them hiereased qu antay of clothes in as evidenc of the people's having too much c of es, as that an increased quantity of corn at Mark-lane was of there being too much in the country—(Hear, hear). —One as well as the other sheaved, not - that the People had too pinch, but that their increased necessities dro them to the market to obtain money at any pric ve e. But another. plan had been proposed by the Hon. Member for Portarlingtou—(Mr. Ricardo), than whom he (Mr. Lockhart) believed no man had a better heart—which was to throw out of cultivation the poor land of the country.' NeW,* if he was not intimate with the his inanity of his Hen. Friend's nature, he (Mr. Lockhart) - would be tempted to, say, that this was a creel and unkind soggestion.' ' Did that House sit there to ie . : &late' Upon land alone? He was at a loss to know how land could be spoken of but, in connection with the human beings to whom it gave subsistence. — He did not care what was done with the land, if they could And land with which the lives of his countryinen were not connected. But what was poor land ? He (Mr. Lockhart) was unable to answer the question.— There might be a difference in . - the natures of some soil, as compared with others, as some had less of a vegetable mould, and others were of a calcareous nature. It was also true that the best lands were in cultivation for centuries. But if the poor lands were put out of cultivation, what was to become of the people ? Did the Hon. Member shew how they could be employed more profitably than they were now? Were they fit for anything else? They were two old to learn manufactures—hands hardened by the plough could not fling the shuttle, and, besides, the manufac-' tories were overstocked. lf, then, these people were to be thrOwn upon the world, the Hon. Member should shew how they were to be usefully absorbed in so ciety. He believed the Hon. Member would find it difficult to answer the question. And he should also recollect, that if he put the poor lands out of cultiva tion, the greater part of the best towns of England would be also involved. If all poor lands were left uncultivated, then should Norfolk, Cambridge, Buck inghamshire,_ Huntingdon, Oxfordshire, and Glouces ter, all of which were in most parts what might be called " poor lands," be left waste. Was the Hon. Member prepared to go that length, or could he Suggest any mode of supporting not only the la bourers, but those who employed them in these ex tensive districts? How would he give them food ? (liew-, hear).—But it was idle to say this House was disposing of the land upon commercial ptinciples. This could be no answer to the principle, and it was absurd to legislate for the community by the feelings or interests of any particular class. But the fact was, the farmers did no; think they could be effectually relieved,b-y-kreductjon of taxes. They ascribed their distresse to (*ter Causes. The plans of the Noble Marquis met 0n44 one of these, and the only relief which he could give them, was to protect them against foreign competition. The difference, then, between the Noble Lord and the farmers was, that be was disposed to give them what he supposed an adequate protection against foreign competition, but what they looted upon as no protection at all, or if any, as one calculated to mislead them. Before any protecting duty was imposed, it was necessary to look at two points ; first, the price of corn at Dant zic and the other ports of the North. He (Mr. Lock hart) had looked at Mr. Solly's evidence before the Committee, and he found that the average price of corn abroad last year, was either 435. or 48s. But then it was wrong to take the average from any one year; for the fact was, that an average taken for a series of years before, made the price only 245. or 265. The Noble Marquis had said, that a difference of a shilling or two in the bushel duty, was of no great consequence ; but he (Mr. Lockhart) was of a different opinion, and it should not he forgotten that this would be a perpetual 10-. s. Besides, the Noble Lord might be surprised to learn, that this loss of a shilling was perhaps, in some cases, as much as the rent of the ground whereon that quantity of corn was grown. The next point was the rate at which the import duty was to be fixed. This was a good deal governed by the first point—namely, the price of corn at Dantzic. It was quite useless to set down any certain sum for profit, for if the importer had any profit at all he would certainly sell. Assuming then that corn bought at Dantzic cost but 265. or 30s. at most, then there was to be added ss. for profit, and ss. for freight, which made it 40s. and add the 17s. import duty, and it was still 575. But hbw . did this tally with the assertion of the Noble Marquis, that the English farmer could not raise his corn less than at 705.? The farmers did not want high duties, they only wanted protection. They did not ask for a re-' mission of twenty millions of taxes, they only asked as much as would make up what was lost by the de preciation of the currency. Lord ALTHORPE said, though he agreed fully with the objects of the Resolution submitted by his Hon. Friend, he would take the liberty of requesting him not to press it. He would not vote against the Resolution most certainly, but he was desirous that the House should go on in the regular course of pro ceeding on the main subject. He had ever considered that the Corn Law was a great evil. He would most readily concur in any plan to alter and amend it. Mr. MONCK said, that he would cordially sup port the motion of his Hon. Friend. All the propo sitions which had been submitted for the relief of the agricultural distresses did not meet his iieas. It was not pretended that they should have any immediate effect—they were but plans of a problematical nature, applicable only to a contingent evil. Without a re duction of taxation, it was impossible to expect any efficient relief—that relief which the country at that instant wanted, and which should not be deferred.— Hehad beard a great deal of low prices. He would learn at what period, except during the id we higher prices? Oar prices of grain ioment were higher than in any part of the In the French provinces bread was but the pound, though their pound weight cent. heavier than ours. In England it ice the pound, one hundred per cent. in France. Notwithstanding ikis great favour of the English farmer, there were 4 Gentlemen of this country satisfied.— age price in the year 1792, and for the nine 'receding, was 445. the quarter; daring the war it was at 425. For the whole period previous-to the late war istala was not se 'r - - _; high as at prate*. When they had, iftl prices to *hat they Landed Genklemeti - not and posiless tila sada rider time which ibis eimsideftbd sweetest prospartty ? The cit.. of easy . solution. %%A w ere the disttrictiOrbetween both periods ? • , . In 1792 the charge of the Nations' Debt was 'C10,000,400 At present it amounted to - - 30,000,000 Our civa• and Mahar? ibtablishiieits In. . .... 1792 were - - - - 7,000,000 At preseht they *ere - - . 12,000,000 The SintiegFund, in 1792 , was - 3.,e00,p00 , Ac present it was - -5,000,00 Q The Poore gates, in 1792, were - 2 , 000 , 000 , ' Now they.amounted to I - 7,000,000 In 1792 the whisle eipenditure of the country did not exceed twenty-millions, and at the present time it had accumulated to the extent of seventy millions, inclusive of taxes and priors' rates. He had , heard a statement made by the Noble Marquis, that taxation did not come to more than five per cent. on the gross -produce of the land. He would, to shew the fallacy of that opinion, give a short sketch of .the produce and disbursement of a farm in 1792, producing four hundred pounds a year rent : Supposing the gross produce to be . Tithes and other rates would he - - The farmer would require, for hb own and la bourers maintenance and profit - • Xl6OO £l2OO which, deducted from the gross produce, would leave £4OO for the landlord. The Government taxes might then have been estimated at 2s. 6d. in the pound, or £lOO on that farm. Now that the taxes were qua drupled, instead of £lOO, the landlOrd wi.uld have to pay £4OO, and that from the same quantity of produce, sold at the same price as at that period.— The difference, to be sure, went to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Exchequer was made to flourish by the declension of the fair profit of the people. The Government seemed altogether to for get the maxim of Adam Smith—i, That excessive taxation was nothing more than artificial sterility." He himself was so convinced of the truth of that opinion, that be could, with the power of taxation, convert the lands of Touraine, or the most fertile in Europe, into a barren and unproductive waste. &vit• zerland was brought as an example to prove that agriculture may be distressed where there was no taxation; but that country laboured under a cause equally powerful—large mortgages and heavy money payments. The laws there not being that of primo geniture, but of gavellind, few farmers held more than 30 acres. He was convinced that few Swiss peasants suffered a deprivation of their family com forts from low prices or over-production. As he had shewn that the reduction of taxation was the remedy necessary to be applied to correct the general evil, be would admit particular cases might require more de tailed investigation. He was also of opinion that the change in the circulation materially affected the goes don. Feeling that all the plans arising from the Re port of the Agricultural Committee were a mockery and an illusion, he would cordially support that ef fective one which called for a reduction of taxation. Sir ROBERT WILSON said that he had carefully abstained from expressing any opinion on the ques tion since its introduction to the House, though many of the statements he had heard were quite irrecon cileable.- He had avoided doing so from an anxiety not to excite alarm or opposition. As he had trusted that the Gentlemen more immediately connected with the question would see that partial measures could not afford them any consolation, but that they should look for relief to a reasonable reduction of taxation, he could not any longer continue silent, when he heard propositions made for the purpose of advanc ing the price of corn, and raising the price of food, which would have the effect of making the quartern loaf sell at 2s. or 2s. 6d. He felt it his duty at that time to protest against such measures. He begged leave to assure the Hon. Member for Somersetshire that the silence of the commercial and manufactur ing interests did not arise from an indifference to the sufferings of their agricultural brethren—it proceeded alone from sincere regret and sympathy fcr their dis: tress. He concurred in the necessity of a modifica tion of the Corn Laws, but he felt that the present time was a dangerous one for any experiments with the food of the people ; it would create an alarm. The people were jealous of any fresh innovation on their rights and liberties. He had seen too much of this. He had been the victim of innovation himself —(Hear, hear)—and he trusted the Government would avoid it at that moment—(Hear). It was said that all interests in this country were but as one fa mily—(Hear). If it were so, we had no right to make the agricultural one the eldest brother. He should not get a monopoly of all the good things to the prejudice of the rights of all the others. He would not pretend to investigate the causes of the present distress. The Hon. Member for Portarling ton had said that it proceeded from abundance—he (Sir Robert) was at a loss to understand how that could be. In France the average harvest was one fifth more than in this country, and they did not see there the farmers'becoming bankrupts or the peasants seeking alms. Though they both may have occa sional causes of complaint, the farmer continced happy and the peasant well fed, and always in pos session of three meals a day. They had no tear from the tax-gatherer, or for the produce of their indus try being seized upon by him. The population of France was 30 millions, the taxation was 34 millions, including the Sinking Fund. The people of England were about 17 millions, and the taxation was 64 mil lions, including tithes and poor rates. In one coun try the taxes were £1 a head, in the other nearly four. He was convinced that eight or nine millions could be saved to the country by an economical arrange , ment for the Colonies, the Sinking Fond, and gene ral establishment; and at the same time preserve the faith of the country with the public creditor (Hear). He was ;lad to find that the plan for lending money ; on corn in warehouse was • abandoned. He had but , one opinion, that a great reduction of taxation should immediately take place—(Hear, hear).—The Hon. Member for Essex (Mr. Western) was not more anxious than he was to see the agricultural distress alleviated —he would.cheerfully support his share in contribut ing to that relief—(Hear). And he trusted that their interests would be ever identified with those of ell t other classes of the people--(Hear, hear). pear to price of corn in former pelts..., was quoted, it be borne in mind that a hundred shillings in those days did not contain a greater quantity of grains of pure silver thai forty shillings of die present day. she removal of i taxation alone would give relief. .Idr. WESTERN rose to make a few comments on the motion of his Hon. Friend, to which he gave his 'I decided and heart approbation. He offered himself not only with a Tit* to support the necessity of a re duction of taxation, bvt to suggest the repeal of that Act by which the pressure of the distress was increased in a great ratio. He contended that they should look to that measure as the main cause of the singular and unexampled depression which not only affected the agricultural interest, but pervaded all other classes of society—(Hear!)—Until they had fully grappled with that question—the new standard 'of value as fixed in 1819, it was useless to discuss all subordi nate questions--:(Hear).—They would merely waste the time of the House and divert the attention of the Legislature and of the country from the main points which were worthy of their consideration—(Near.) It was useless to talk of the price at which regula tions would be, made, entil they established the value of the currency. It was the price of money which they should 'seek to determine. Until that was done, they were but stumbling in the dark by fixing im portation and exportation rates—(Hear). The in dustry of the country could not bear the accumula tion of distress arising from that Bill. Certainly, its' supporters had not contemplated that distress, but at present it equally affected all classes. On that ground be could fairly rest the proposition of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Wyvill) to which he gave his decided and unqualified support. It was ridiculous to talk of the price of corn at Dantzic ; was not the average of 455. at which it was given, estimated in the depreciated currency of this kingdom ? The price in that market did not depend on the cost of the production of grain, but it assumed that of the British mar ket.- 1-le considered that such calculations did not afford any evidence to be relied on. What a fallacy was it not now to argue from the priceof the last 25 years? He considered that they should come to a direct un derstanding of the difference between the money price, and the actual or labour price of corn. He ventured to maintain this proposition, that the higher the money price cf corn was, the lighter the weight of taxation which the country would have to bear. As the weight of taxation was lightened, the real price of labour was reduced : it had the same effect as that of repealing taxes. He thought that he was not wrong in stating that view to the House, which, he trusted, it would take into consideration. It could not now be the advantage of the landed interest to enhance the necessaries of life, and impose upon them high prices, solely for the purpose of procuring means to pay an excessive taxation,entaileduporithem by the late protracted war. It was his real belief that it was morally impossible for the House to take the subject into consideration, without establishing a metallic standard of value. He regretted that they had ever adopted the measure of 1819. He was per suaded that the Bill of 1819, though it had the sanc tion of the highest authorities, was the most calami tous measure that had ever been adopted by that House. He had some observations to make respect ing the object of the plans now considered to he be fore the House. He would not enter into an exami nation of the various plans submitted to them to re- 1 gulate the importation of corn; he would only make one or two remarks with respect to the general ob ject of them, it being to controul the importation of foreign corn. He would say unequivocally, that he did not wish to prevent the introduction of foreign corn, when its importation might be considered ab solutely necessary ; and he was of opinion that the question of its necessity might be determined by the average quantities used during the last twenty-five, years. But he contended that such introduction' ought to be so regulated as not to threaten the over whelming of the British farmer, whenever such im portations should be permitted. On one point he was at issue with many of - his Honourable Friends : he maintained that it would be dangerous and impo litic to rely on foreign countries, to any extent, for the supplies of corn: He objected to the principle, that it would be beneficial to import corn in return for our exported manufactures. Arguing on political grounds, he declared that he would never give his counsel to any such system: To his mind, on ob vious and distinct political grounds, it appeared that it would be most unwise to rely on foreign countries, which might become our enemies, for any large sup plies of corn. To adopt such a system would be far more dangerous than any of the difficulties with which the country had now to contend. Ile had been led into more extended observations than he at first contemplated ; and, in conclusion, he begged to repeat, that the difficulties under which agriculture laboured mainly resulted from the Act of 1819, and that the consideration of the Resolutions presented toi the House was a waste of time. Mr. Secretary PEEL said he did not rise with the view of replying to the Honourable Member, who had last addressed the Muse, on the subject of the Bill which he had been instructed to introduce to the House. He merely rose to observe that he abstained from making any such remarks, because this was not the proper time for discussing that important ques tion, and because he had understood that the Honour able Member intended to make the Act of 1819 the subject of a distinct motion. Was he correct in still considering that it was the Honourable Member's in tention to make that Act the subject (f a particular motion?—[Mr. WESTERN replied, " Certainly."]— As he was correct in such understanding, lie was more strongly persuaded of the impropriety of dis cussing that measure on the present occaiion. It wits a question of such immene importance, that it was most desirable that all opinions respecting it du:hid be reserved for that period when its distinct consi• deraion was to be brought forward. While he ex ,xessed these reasons for not replying to what had , said by the . Honourable Member for Essex, he could not help at the same time expressing the Hope that so important a question should not tie mixecifty with other questions of a decidedly different. charac ter. Whateiiir might be the character of "the Act. ;-»-~ i- , That had been suggested' as m e t e . measure, would have a decided ten . seriously to unsettle all contract-- whe substituted a standard founded on the price whether they adopted the scheme of th e Member for Essex (Mr. Western), re . contracts since the war. These sugges. tericied to prove the importance of the m um; and he th erefore repeated, that he hoped the discos. sion on the subject woold be postponed till it w as regularly before the House (Hear, heer).--Ne w o uld adhere to .his determinUtiou not to be drawn into an irregular discussion; but he could not avoid remark.. ing, that if, indeed, the effect of the Act had been to increase the taxation forty per cent. as there svas,Mt. withstanding, an increasing revenue, the fact ga te him an idea of the resources of the country that brk had not before possessed—( Hear, hear). Mr. WILLIAMS (the Barrister, and the new Mem. ber for Lincoln) called upon the House to pa,,, e i rt the pursuit of measures which it was acknowledged could be productive of no immediate practical relin4 and to consider what was the language of the Peoz tious under which the table of the House groaned.-... That language certainly was not that they te.iuizeti some distant remedy. They did not ask sem i remote prospect of relief for future generations after the present was swept away ; but, from what he had heard, it undeviatingly was—that they required irn. mediate relief, or they died—(Haar, hear).—Wka, then, signified it to the pre: ent sufferers at what time the Bill introduced by the Right Hon. Gentltmaa apposite came into operation ? Now that the Nr , ble Mat quis opposite bad withdrawn his proposition, there temained none which had an immediate rune dial tendency or aspect. What, then, remained for them to do but to listen to the plain, home-bred, re commendation of the Petitioners ? That was their duty, and he hoped was their inclination. Now as to what that language was, he had never heareloffercd more than one or two propositions. These were, either a reformation of the House of Common,, or a reduc tion of taxation. On tlie . first of these, alter the last decision of the House, he should say nothing. Bat pregnant as the s Petithns were with that subject, he regretted that he had not had an opportunity of adding to the minority on that motion. On the .sub ject of 4 remission of taxation, was there any man to say that that would not have the effect of relieving the distress? He cared not about the quantity to be remitted, arguing that every motion of such a ten dency was better than one which had none. The removal of any tax, however trifling, did something. —The proposals upon which the House had lately been discussing, would have no operation hwt (. mis lead the public, and withdraw from the suffer er that which they did possess—manly fortitude !—( Hear). If the House could devise no means of relief, let them have the manliness to state it. But was it to he said, that if the House set seriously about it, ho !eliet could be given ? Ministers only began to think of :he means when the House began to oblige them to do so. When Gentlemen who had the honour or the misfortune to have constituents were warned try the loudness of their complaints, Ministers began to learn how to reduce the expenditure. The coiorrie, had been mentioned, and he thought they wouli do well to consider whether it would not he right that ail co lonies that were not of paramount importance were withheld. It had been said that they e ere receding from the favour and affection of the Pe, ple of Eng land. He knew no way of recovering it better that by shewing an anxiety to follow their suggestions to relieve them from the uistress com.equeirt upon an abundant, exorbitant, grinding taxation. He thought the motion would make a good beginning to that re form, and as such he should vote for it—(Hear, hear). (This was the Learned Gentleman's 44 maiden" speech in the House of Commons). Mr. PHILLIPS observed, that he could not sup port the recommendation that had been given, that they should return to a depreciated currency. They had wisely returned to a metallic currency, and he thought it would be highly injurious to the general interests of the community to change it—(Hecr).— He denied that it would be better to adopt a corn standard—Dlr. ATTWOOD observed, that such a state ment was not an accurate construction of what he had said]. He would not then dwell further on this point. ‘Vith respect to the difficulties of the coun try, he observed, that the poor-rates had increased enormously ; that the operation of the taxes was more severe, particularly on those commodities that were useful to the farmer, and that the only relief to the farmer (excepting some improvement of the Corn Laws) wold be a reduction of taxation. He therefore acceded to the motion. Sir ISAAC COFFIN observed, that an Honourable Member had stated that the French peasantry were better led than those of England. He had travell2d through France, but he had seen nothing that would warrant such an assertion ; on the contrat y, he was satisfied "that an Englishman eat four times a., much at a meal than a Frenchman !"—He had travelled through Europe, and he declaled that the Net , iiity and Gentry—in fact, all classes, were better lea tl England, than were the like classes in any part of the world l—(Laughter). Mr. K. DOUGLAS said, that he had not the least hesitation in giving his decided opposition to the amendment. Mr. CURWEN said, he should support the amend ment, because he was convinced of the necessity of a large reduction of taxation. He considered that the Resolutions were useless, for he saw no hope of any relief being granted to the country ; but he trusted that the House, before it was too late, would see the necessity of averting the ruin that threatened the country. It something were not done, he thought the period was not very distant when the fundhehic, would be called on to bear his part of the burdens , and difficulties that now distressed the country. Mr. D. BROWNE opposed the motion. Mr. BEAUMONT objected to the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, because he did not tirk that any of the Resolutions could, by any possibility , afford relief to the country. Even if the plans would do no harm, they were inefficacious if they were 11,1 calculated to produce positive good, for they would delude the country into the belief that relief way 'be expected from them. Mr. N. CALVERT complained of the delay that had already taken place : two days had elapsed, Aga 'nothltsg.had been done. . hti."'WXVILL said, after all that had passed, it would be improper in hint not to press his modal. I .11G be glad to le 1" 1 1 . ,. : late war, hac at this mottle Continent. 1 . : ' one penny t ' l ' was ten per 1 was twopen 0 ‘ i i : li dearer than i difference in f; i =One of the The overage years prate nw of fill years i i i iiiiiiiiii, i I Be wettM IA ain quoins. •MG OVIOMY said he wiltig o r i gt e e er I the propositions ) 179 g, no Stive. , , _ an d i n hni a t sinsinnl te t , thenature of the roar tided rations of the in i had at ' should the hi the . lotions of the A 'at Cbirittlittee, _th mc y. most str i a wised be productive of Noe. armithan od. Ire% ther they substitt ilia be a le, to_ n 'their rents, i t a ,l,,antages mit eniirperiod__a land.hadgsported all hey for the sake of getting ' elf ci►rn, or whet the ready money of this coun • ; 'but it did not •p- Honourable Mei asiderid to Ml* bear that of our ? The ijuestion was one of ess y pe!ir to have done her any good. When the excessift spitting all coati ___ as. r h a tinairisti laitw o@n b ot h price acorn in former pea iods was quoted, it should ti ons ten d e d to pi [pt. I been