Star. — London, England, 1821-04-13 00:00:00

~__ - .4; ; . 1 ~' produce particular i i pst i ncts of,ciittption. The pre sent afforded an instance wllch, if it was not abso lute comptioa, halt at legt the same effect, namely, that iprekred wirjl the Rectors in the choice which they would otherwise mike of their Representatives. He would move, as an Amendment, that the Peti tion be referred to a Committee of Privileges. Sir J. GRAHAM said tliat this was not such a Petition as could be referred to a .Committee of Pri vileges. What did the Petitioners complain of?— that there was some error in their representation. This was not the fact, because this House decided before in whom the right of election in Lyme Regis was vested, and there were few places in which there had been so much litigation, from time to time, as this same Borough. The elections for Lyme Regis were conducted in an open way—it was by no means a close Borough, and as to the Burgesses being de pendents on Government, that was not the fact, for he (Sir J. Graham) could, from his own personal knowledge, say that there were men amongst them as respectable as any in the kingdom. A great deal had been said about the patronage which a Peer of the Realm exercised in the elections for the Borough, but if that were imputed as a fault, he (Sir J. Gra ham) could lay his hand upon a great many Gentle men on the other side of the House who had been fined in their seats by the exercise of this same in fluence—( Loud cheers from the Opposition). Mr. HURST did not think this Petition came within that class of complaints which inveighed ge nerally against the corrupt state of the representa tion of the country. On the contrary, it made a distinct charge against a Peer of the Realm, im puting to him conduct which was directly in the face of the Standing Order of that House, and he thought, therefore, it would not be disposing of it properly by simply laying such a complaint upon the table. Lord LOWTHER observed that the question as to where the right of election ought to vest in the Bo rough of Lyme Regis had been so often discussed, and so often ascertained, that he was at a loss to see what a Committee of Privileges could now have to do with it. Mr. LAMBTON said, that this was no Election Petition. It did not complain of the return of one Member or another, it complained that the elective power was lodged in wrong hands. It was, there. fore, a mistake to suppose that it was an Election Petition, because whatever way it was disposed of, it could not affect the return of a Member. But he was greatly surprised to hear an Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) attempt to justify the influence of the Peers, as exemplified in this Election, by shewing that In very many other cases the same influence was made use of. This was justifying one abuse, by shewing that the abuse was universal—(Hear, hear). He would therefore follow up his motion for laying the Petition on the table, and then support the mo tion of his Hon. Friend for referring it to a Com mittee of Privileges. The SPEAKER suggested, that both these mo tions could not be made in the same day. Mr. LAM BTON said, he was willing to withdraw his motion for laying the Petition on the table, so as to leave it open to his Hon. Frieud to move that it be referred to the Committee. Mr. HOBHOUSE declared his determination of persisting in his motion. The SPEAKER said, that it should be as an Amendment, for the Hon. Member for Durham was not at liberty to withdraw his motion. Mr. HUSKISSON said, that as there was no pre cise charge against any individual by name, he did not see how a Committee of Privileges could deal with this Petition. Any discussion on this Petition ought to be reserved for the occasion when the Hon. Member for Durham would bring the subject of Par liamentary Reform before the. House. Lord ALTHORPE denied that the Petition com plained generally of the state of the Representation of the country. It breathed not a general complaint, but preferred a specific charge against a Peer of the Realm—(Hear, hear).—The words of the Petition he observed, were, " that the Peer nominates." If this was the fact, he asked, was it not a glaring vio lation of the Standing Order which the House passed at the beginning of every Session ? He thought if the House had any respect for its character for purity, it ought not to give a deaf ear to the prayers of these Petitioners. Mr. HUSKISSON said, that the Noble Lord as sumed by implication, that which was not stated in the Petition. Mr. LAMBTON.—The words are—" That he di. rects the return."—(Hear, hear). Mr. MONCK thought this a proper case for going before a Committee. He was at a loss to conceive a stronger case than an open charge against a Peer, for having interfered at an Election. Mr. HUTCHINSON said, it was allowed on all hands that this was a case of great importance, and the only difficulty was as to the manner in which it ought to be treated—(Hear, hear).--He thought the Petitioners had made out a strong claim to the at tention of the House. They had preferred a com plaint of interference against a Peer of the Realm, and thus charged him with an offence which was a breach of the privileges of this House—(Hear, hear). He had heard it openly avowed by an Honourable Baronet at the other side, that there were many Mem bers here, whose seats were obtained through the in terference of Peers. If this fact were true, would the House of Commons longer say, that they were really the Representatives of the People ?—(Hear, hear). _ _ Mr.). H. SNIYTH supported the Amendment. Mr. W. WYNNE said, it was useless to refer the Petition to a Committee of Privileges, unless there wa. bribery charged, which would lead to a prosecu tion, or unless the Peer against whom the complaint was made was a Lord Lieutenant of a County, or some Officer removable at the pleasure of the Crown. Sir J. NEWPORT observed, that under these cir cumstances, it was unbecoming the House to be making a Standing Order, declaring the i n t er f erence of Peers at Elections a breach of their privileges, when they had no power to sustain th a t O r d er , or punish for the infringement of it—(Hear, hear). The House then divided— For the Amendment Against it - - - Majority - - USURY LAWS. 53 82 -49 Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW rose, pursuant to notice, to bring on his motion touching the repeal of the pre- sent Usury Laws. lte Houuurable and Learned - __ . w_' - - Member ended into it general review of the Use" Laws, and contended that the operation of them was equally unjust as injurious. • A late Member of this House (Sir Samuel Shepherd) had changed his opi nion on the subject, in consequence of having read Mr. Bentham's book, which convinced him that the doctrines of Dr. Adam Smith were erroneous. He, concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to repeal the Laws regulating the Interest of Money, and the rate thereof. Mr. DAVENPORT said, that the adoption of the measure would produce the worst possible effect in the country, particularly on the Agricultural Inte- rest. He hoped the Honourable and Learned Mem ber would withdraw his motion. Sir ROBERT HERON said, that if the Bill should pass into a law, he hoped the title would be altered, and that it would be called " A Bill for the more speedily Ruining of the young Nobility !"—(Laughter). Lord ALTHORPE did not see that the measure would be attended with all the injurious consequences which Gentlemen anticipated. He could not con ceive how the Landed Interest was likely to suffer by it. Capitalists could get eight per cent. on mortgage,' and eleven on annuities, yet they were unwilling to transfer their money to the purchase of annuities. He was glad the measure had been introduced, and he thought this a very proper time for giving it that consideration which it deserved. Mr. PHILLIPS made some observations in sup port of the motion. In his opinion, temporary diffi culties would be removed by the repeal of the laws in question ; whereas, in consequence of their opera tion, every sort of exaction was now practised on per sons in want of money. Mr. GORDON deprecated the measure, as most objectionable. The effect of it would be to add to the difficulties under which the needy were at present labouring. Mr. J. P. GRANT contended, that the soundest principle to act upon was for the borrower and the lender to settle their affairs between themselves, in the best manner they could. Mr. CALCRAFT' did not think that if the. laws were repealed the borrower of money would be bet ter off than at present. There had been a maximum for the price of bread, and he did not consider that the purchaser would acquire any advantage by its being done away. The same principle would hold I good with respect to money. He should certainly, if he remained of the opinion he then was, divide the House upon the motion on the second reading. Mr. RICARDO insisted, that it was as much in the power of the borrower n keep down the price of money, as it was in the power of the lender to raise it. He should give his ready assent to the motion. Mr. BARING was most happy that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had brought forward the motion, and he should give it his cordial support. There was no class of persons who had suffered more from the operation of the Usury Laws than country Gentle men, who not being able to raise money on mort gage at five per cent. when the Government paid six, were obliged to resort to extortioners, who imposed upon them in every respect. Mr. MONCK followed on the same side, and dwelt on the injury of a fixed rate of interest being sanc tioned by the Legislature. It was a well known fact, that since the maximum on the price of bread hail been done away, the people were infinitely betel supplied with bread than before.—The question was then put, and leave given to bring in the Bill. TIMBER DUTIES. Mr. J. P. GRANT wished to know from a Right Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Wallace) when he intended to propose the second reading of the Timber Duties Bill, which was te.,eome on to-night ? Mr. WALLACE said, that his object was to move the second reading to-night, and should wish that the discussion should be postponed till Monday, when the Bill might be committed. Mr. J. P. GRANT said, he should not oppose the proposition, but he gave notice, that he should on Monday move for a Committee, to reconsider the whole of the Duties on Timber. ADNI:SSIOX OF ATTORNIES. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOIV moved for leave to bring in a Bill to regulate the admission of Attornies and Solicitors. His object was, that those who had gra duated in Universities should have an allowance made them in the term of their apprenticeship; and he wished the measure should be extended to Ireland. Leave was given to bring in the Bill. BILLS OF EXCHANGE. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW next moved for leave to brin. in a Bill to regulate the Acceptances of Bills of Exchange. Mr. SCARLETT seconded the motion. Mr. BARING thought the Bill very desirable, as the common mode of regulating bills of exchange rendered the validity of those documents insecure. Mr. SCARLETr and Mr. F. CAMPBELL said a few words; after which the question was put, and the motion agreed to. ORDNANCE. Mr. HUNIE was aware of the importance of the subject that he was to bring before the house. The motion had sprung from the enquiries he had made into the Ordnance Expenditure. He made the motion first in a constitutional point of view, and, second, on the ground of expense. The subject had excited his attention from what had taken place at Sheerness and Queenborough. He found that almost every depart ment in the Ordnance had been filled by Freemen of Queenborough, and many had been displaced to make room for Freemen of that Borough, and to place them on the Superannuation List. He should bring in a IBill to prevent Civil Officers of the Ordnance from voting at the election of Members of Parliament, as was the case in other Public Offices. AU the Statutes on this subject went to prevent the exertion of impro per influence. If he could shew that the majority of any Electors were under the influence of the Crown, that would be a sufficient reason to place such per sons under the same restrictions as the Officers of the Salt and Excise. The Act 22d Geo. 111. had a most salutary effect, and had been attended from the House of Commons by 100 Members to- the Upper House. The restrictions, which extended to the Customs and Excise, the Masters of Packets and the Postmasters, he proposed to apply to the Ordnance. The exception to the Act was, that holders of Patent Places should not be included in it ; and the exception proved the principle of the law. On oecasion of the former Bill, the third reading had been carried by 87 to 12. By the 434 of Geo. - 1.11. ch. 25, all those regulations had ter: =,~= ' been extended to Ireland. By the sth of William and Mary, no Collector was to attempt to influence the vote of any individual, and that principle bad been carried through the whole of the Customs, and had been subsequently extended to the Excise, the Post Office, and to almost all the other departments con nected with the management of the Revenue. He wished only to extend the old principle to the only l branch to which it at present was not extended. By his Bill he left it to the individual either to suspend the, exercise of his electivefranchise,or to vacate his offices. The Gth of Queen Anne, c. 2, said, that no persons' holding offices created after a certain time should be capable of filling a seat in that House; and ex tended it to many Agents, Commissioners of Trans ports, and persons holding pensions at pleasure. In 1802, 151 electors voted at the election for Queen borough, and the numbers were 76 and 75 ; when the election went against the Government. But at that time the number of persons in the Ordnance at that place was only 17. At the last election, Messrs. Hunt and Villiers, the Government candidates, had 166 votes, and the Opposition candidate had only 66. But now there were 147 freemen who had places to the amount of £ll,OOO, and 32 others had situations in the Customs and the Preventive Service. He should next proceed to shew how far the Ord nance department extended. The first was Mr.Grey stock, of the Tower. lie was the Mayor, and had become Barge-master of the Ordnance. His salary was not a very great one, to be sure, being only £6O a-year ; but he had enjoyed it for eleven years, and the post was a perfect sinecure. He understood that this gentleman, in addition to his public capacity,was an oyster salesman—(A laugh).—He was, too, Mayor of Queenborough. A gallant General (Sir Ulys , .es Burgh) smiled at this account; but he (Nlr. Ilume), considering that for eight months in the year this individual was at Billingsgate, selling his oysters, and for the other four months getting them in France, did look upon this office as a great sinecure, be the salary what it might. Mr. Greet was the next in succession; and no individual, certainly, had derived more benefit from the liberal patronage of the Ord nance Office than he. Of no person had so many ves sels been hired for the transport of stores, and so forth. He got as much as he could himself, in the way of employment, and by way of his own influence; for he had procured his brother to be appointed Deputy Barge-master. He held the situation, which, alto gether, was worth nearly £5OO a-year ; he had £250 salary, his coals, candles, and so forth; besides which, his brother had the command of a cutter. They had heard of a Manager in that House: this Gentleman seemed to be the Manager for the Ordnance, in this particular department of it. The next person is Henry Ligonier he had a salary of £lOB a-year, perquisites, &c. lived in Upnor Castle; besides this, he had the command of a vessel, which was em ployed by the Ordnance Office, and which, no doubt, afforded him very nice pickings ! James Bowton, of Sheerness,- also a jurat, part owner of a vessel ; his allowance was £lOB a-year, besides £2O for house rent. lie commanded the Cord Howe powder vessel, gf 35 tons, as it had been returned, though it very probably was of much larger burden. He (Mr. Hume), while he was collecting information respecting this very vessel, was placed in a very awkward situation, for he had been told by the clerk of the Ordnance Office, that if he thought any persoir on board her was giving an iota of that information, he would have him immediately turned away—( Loud cheers flan, the Treasury beaches,which were loudly reiterated by the Opposition).—That cheer told two ways— ( Hear).—lt told that the Gentlemen connected with the Ordnance Department were afraid to have the, real facts of the case made known. He was quite pleased with the cheering answer of the Right Hon. Gentleman in particular, the Master of the Mint. un b a l i r. l'OL h Elyse to order. He submitted t hat it wa s qu it e rqu e to est b e e d th t e he po ß in ig t ht in H w o h n ich Ge i z i t r le . m H an iune to Ike for t h e Hon._ Gentleman to appeal to him in this way. state what he conce ived was out of order. Mr. POLE said, that the Hon. Gentleman applied himself to him first of aIL He had said that he (Mr. Pole) smiled and laughed, and not content with this, he had then appealed to him by name. The . SPEAKER said, that if a cheer proceeded from any individual, to the interruption of another Hon. Gentleman who was speaking, it was evidently disorderly; and, therefore, to impute such a cheer to an Hon. Member, was also disorderly. Mr. POLE appealed to the House whether he had cheered the lion. Member for Aberdeen, or done anything disorderly? Mr. HUME disclaimed any intention to hurt the feelings of the Right Honourable Gentleman, and proceeded to state a number of c a s e s o f t h e ki n d h e had before alluded to, observing, at the same time, that he was prepared to prove all that he asserted before a Committee of that House. How could such men exercise an unbiassed franchise, when they were all liable to be dismissed at the pleasure of the Mas ter-General of the Ordnance? Of one single family of the name of Pillet, nine or ten were saddled on the Public. Certain Officers had been dismissed at Ports mouth for misconduct ; while other Officers at Queen borough, whose misconduct had been much greater, had, through the influence of the Ordnance, been re stored. A person of the name of Langley had been appointed Storekeeper at Dover, with a salary of 1:W0, though a considerable saving would have been made by appointing a reduced Storekeeper. . Wm. Aiken Storekeeper, aged seventy-two, had been super annuated at £5OO a-year; and a person of the name of Atkins, aged seventy-four, possessed of £2,000 a-year, had been appointed i n his room (Hcar,hear). The result was, that 147 persons had among them £14,000, and thirty-two houses, together with ser vents. That was the end of his first list. Of the next, Mr. Marshall had £250 salary, and a gratuity of £2OO a-year. Then came Mr. T. Marshall, with a 'salary of £2OO a-year, and an allowance for coals and candles. Eleven freemen of Queenborough had among them £2,600 a-year. The sum total, with the Houses and the Preventive Service, amounted to. £25,000. He had a list of sixteen persons who had been dismissed, and their places supplied by inhabit ants of Queenborough. By a Circular of the Ord nance, none above the age of forty-five could be ad mitted to these services. But a man of the name of Kensley had beenstnissed, and another called Ro bertson, aged forty-eight, had been appointed in his place. The reason was, that Robertson was a native of Queenborough, and the other was not. A man of the name of Smith had, in like manner, been dis charged, and G. May, aged fifty-five, and a native of Queenborough, had been appointed in his room. The Honourable Gentleman, in like manner, cited a num ber of similar cases. A ;pan of the name of J. Eagle, 'arta seventy-seven, had superseded a person dr th e name of Savory, who had bee n eighteen ye ars in th e service; and Eagle himself was almost immedi ately superannuated at £6O a-year, h av i ng twenty years" before been superannuated at £4O a-year. 'La v i n , gone through these facts, the H onoura bl e Memb; recapitulated some of the principal grounds on which he rested his motion. If the House rejected it, h e should be perfectly ready to support a Bill to enabl e the Board, the Master-General of the Ordnance, or the Lords of the Treasury, to appoint the Xlembe r y for Qucenborough, instead of going through the mockery ofan election—(Hear, hear).—By this me lt= if these useless officers, only retained for their votes, were dismissed, the Public would save the important sum of £25,000 a-year. He concluded b y moviet for leave to bring in a Bill to disqualify certa i n civ l servants of the Board of Ordnance from voting at Elections for Members of Parliament—(Cheeri n o. Mr. BERNAL seconded the Motion. At a la:: Election for Rochester, no less than twentp , five sons belonging to the Quarantine Establishment ha' given their votes. He did not mean to say that (i:). vernment should exert no influence, but he withed that influence not to be corrupt. Mr. It. ‘VARD would oppose the Bill in ail is parts, though he was at a loss with what part dila Honourable Gentleman's speech he should begin. H e believed he had a complete answer to all his cases_ He would put it to the Hon. Gentleman, whether b e would not have done better to have put off the g oes• tion in the absence of the Noble Person who reprr. sented the Government in that House? In the n ot i ce the Hon. Gentleman had stated, that he would emend the motion to others, by which he probably me ant the Navy. But he had though proanr to simplify the motion, probably because the Officers of the O t d. nance usually voted with the Government, which e h not the case in the Navy. Ile should oppose the motion, as it tended to throw a stigma on a merita rious body of nien—(Chcers and lanOtcr).—Bot the Hon. Member could not stop here : to be consistent he must extend the Bill to c•: cry derailment of the Navy. But he hoped the Il , aite. would read him a better lesson. The lion. Gentleman had opposed the Newington Vestry Bill on the ground that it took away the elective franchise from a great body of Electors, but now the I-lon. Gentleman propo it a to disfranchise a much greater number. The Bill west on a false assumption that all in the service voted for the Government Candidate. But the contrary had appeared in the case of Great Yarmouth and Ipswicl , , which had been carried by the Dockmen against the Government. He had been informed that there was in his own Office, a Radical Reformer. He (Mr.ll, Ward) asked if the man was a good Clerk? and being answered in the affirmative, he had allowed that individual to go thrice to Maidstone to vote against the Candidate supported by Government.— If he (Mr. Hume) complained of the influence of Go. vernment, what became of the influence on the other side of the House? Would he prevent Tenants from voting agreeably to the wishes of their Landlords? The motion of the Hon. Gentleman was either a wild Utopian scheme, or made with a view to hurt a pax ticular body of men. A motion had been made by Mr. Marshall, to disfranchise the Dockmen, because they had opposed him at his Election fur the County of Kent ; and Lord Granville, then a young man, said he could not sufficiently express his indignation at the conduct of a man who endeavoured to tale away the elective franchise from so great a body of his fellow-citizens. Lord St. Vincent, at the ap prbach of an Election, used to telegraph the dif terent ships, that the men might come on shore, and enjoy the elective franchise. In 11+02., the Member for Coventry, and Mr. Prinsep, had turned out the Government Candidates at Queenborough.— Sir Samuel lionlilly had twice represented that ito rough, and the parity of his cha.-acter was univer- sally knows:. Though thn: Government of 1312 had failed at Queenborough, yet that ol*lBo6 succeeded, no doubt, by honourable means. Because 146 eke tors had voted for the Government, the Homo able Gentleman now wished to disfranchise 2000 electors. The Honourable Gentleman must remodel his motion, for as it now stood, or if he altered it, it would be an anomaly either way to say, that a mat should vote in the House and not vote out of it. If a man was influenced in his vote out of the Honer, he was as likely to be influenced in it. In the year 1803 several Officers and servants in the Ordnance voted against the Government without being dis missed. Captain Dickenson was himself a personal friend of Mr. Fox, and now a great admirer of his principles, yet he retained his office. The Honour able Member had not made out his case; and the House would not be able to stop if it went on to de' prive Englishmen of the invaluable privilege of 'ercising . the elective franchise. He could state that a majority of the freemen of Queenborough who bad votes were not employed by the Ordnance. There were 129 persons employed by that establishme‘ and 163 of them unemployed by it. He denied that there had been places created for the purpose of I°' fluencing the freemen of Queenborough; neitheihad the Honourable Gentleman pointed out a singleoffice that had been so created. It was true that the fret' men of Queenborough had been and must hew' ployed by the Ordnance. It was within one o_, and a half of Sheerne ss , t h at great p or t of ran i equipment, and where were they to look for games nearer ? He thought that the Honourable Genderao. ought to have given him notice of the number 't persons dismissed, because they were not freemen, t° ' make way for those who were free. The Ordauce had never done so. He had instanced the case da man named Kensley, who was dismissed alter hal ten years a foreman of a magazine. Now the lot was, that the magazine was reduced, but that Kent ley and another were kept a s l a bourers. Be . stanced several who were also discharged as foremea and retained as labourers till vacancies should ens° 6 The Hon. Gentleman had, in a fit of kindness and, candour, promised him informati o n of allihe cases oppression charged ag ainst The Hon. Gentleman accused him of rating a vessel 56 tons, when she was but 36; and that he had set t old him a person to measure her. He (Mr. Ward) , the Board Oldnaorti.; that if any one suffered her to be measuied . wan . °°, the knowledge of the Board, he should be dism , ts . 4l r. " 0, don't do that act of oppression ; fur I told t:: person to measure her with t so happened , that he Joni hha hisd the ves , _el air e eye!"—(A 1476 0 10 _ i s " and she proved to be 56 tons and upwards. . eaulai ity of the Officers of abe BvuJ at Qde°ll°. ~- -:~-~