Star. — London, England, 1817-02-18 00:00:00

l•hotigh we were not in a state of hostility Pritrqh:t Power. If the commencement of this Al „r wear was difficult to be settled, and had been tl..d wrong, its termination was no less curious: p ro dated from the reception of the treaty at the A i n ,, ea lr r.—(l/ear.hear).—These dates of the fitting ii 4 exarhtion, and the arrival of the treaty-in j ; ra t., ; ., rii4!!t tally wi.h the duration of the salary; bt v • Ai e ctill not be :aid to , constitute the com. l ip: ., ettt, rr ard the tertninrtion of a war, during the htia:c ,c nt which a war salary could be claimed.- vrar did out continue till negociatious were cat :(rJ on at home, or till the treaty made was sane. * li ed by the Government of this country ; it ended $5 soon as the Der had consented to yield to the t oms ei.!, which Lord Egmont!) was instructed to ainti his compliance. and that was on the day cquent to the victory. But taking it that the Se cretaries of the Admiralty were entitled to war sale ti, on this occasion, these were other officers in cluded in the provisions of the order of council which r gulated their allowance, and they likewise should tire received augmented pay. If any one was thus le sell'3l for Additional duty, all should be rewarded, ciiicrv.ase the measure was partial, and shewed undue Om. The Master shipwrights, and the Master carpenters, he ( Lad Milton) had been told, were on ix footing of war and peace allowance. If this was tlacale, the order in Council allowed an increase of .awry to them duriog war, and if they had not now r eceived it. while the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Doter) had, what would the country say—what , would it think of that.kind of justice that would al low an increased salary to a public servant, because to was a Member of Parliament, while it withheld the increase from others, equally' entitled, because powerful, and nut so great tavourites ?—(Hear, L at .) He (Lord Milton) was ignorant of the fact, but he hoped the Honourable Gentleman would give tim complete information; he hoped that he would ft, able to shew that all were treated alike ; for he (Mr. Croker) would feel that he incumbered him. mit with a heavy weight of suspicion and respon sibility, if he advised a measure of remuneration to himself which he did not to others, who were en titled to the benefit of the same regulation —(Hear.) The magnitude of the sum was not the ream:ashy he called the attention of Parliament to the subject : did so because be wished the House to redeemit rr.. with the country, and to merit its confidence— ! itur, leer).—A call for retrenchment had been rc..t.lL en ail ranks of men, from the, Prince to the -earat : would the House be, deaf to the call so la.iii.imou4 and strongly expressed ? , —(Hear).—lt it 'cglected this call, the public distress might lead to in:Jlic discontent ; and all . confidence in the Re przseatztives of the People would vanish. Parlia. ;ant, in viewing the expenditure of the public mo ney, ought, if he might so express himself, to have a microscopic eye. especially when that expenditure was connected with one of its own Members. What %avid the country think in seeing Government des. charge porters, workmen, and clerks from the public ofEces, while it increased the salaries of those who had influence and power? The circumstance of the' Secretary being a Member of Parliament. made it imperative on the House to watch witlfmere vigilance over transactions like the presein. What had the Honourable Ceendentan done for his augmented se- I lay—where were his services—what were his in-1 mod duties ? Did his increased trouble and la-, beer deserve such additional reward ?—(Her) Did the Government of 1800 contemplate an expe ttion against a petty State, not admitted into the riot of civilized nations, u sufficient to authorize the Secretary of the Admiralty to consider this Empire in a state of war, which would entitle him to a war salary Was every insulated and partial armament to be consideed as the war meant in the Order in Council of that date ? Here there was no correspon dence to be carried on with foreign parts; no diffi cult arrangements to be made ; no co-operation to be Islamised. The war meant in the Order in Council mist have had something of a general character, and could not allude to a single, partial, and insulated ex pedition. If such was the case, the public had been such deceived, as was likewise the Navy Pay Office. (Hear, hear.) The Navy Pay Office, not thinking that the attack on Algiers constituted this country in a state of war within the meaning of the Order of 1800, refused to pay the war salary till they had con salted with the Admiralty. -This Board accordingly asked, 4 , Are we at war Oh, yes !" replied the Admiralty : 44 we have been in great and dangerous war, therefore pay the Secretaries their war salary." The Navy Office, by the question, clearly thought that there was no title made out to an increase of emu. laments on account of the expedition to Algiers. The union duration of the war, even according to the Admiral, was two days, which, according to the rate ((increase would have entitled the 'Honourable Se cretary tctive pound s three shilfiage and aim Noce. instead of a quarter's allowance!-- ( 4 hug*, and Hear, hear.) It tiniest hace happened, that Lord Exmouth might have found the Dey ready to comply with the de mands of the British Government without coming to extremities ; and what would have been the situation of the Secretary then ? He must have written all his ntspatches, he must have undergone all his fatigues. he must have carried on all kis war correspondence ire nothing. There would have been no war, nor any additional allowance. Was, therefore, the bom bardment of Algiers, which gave him no additional t rouble, and which l asted only a few hours, to make t hat a period of war from the fitting out of the axpe !Mien to the arrival of the dispatches, which would si . sit have been a war otherwise ? While it gave no la bour was it to be productive of emolunient ? and was I:le Honourable Gentleman to cheat the country, and obtain, under false pietences a salary which he did n't Merit by his exertions i—(Hear,,hear.) Alter what had passed last year he (Lord Milton) did not needle that the Honourable Gentleman would have provoked the present discussion, or obtruded binise)f I pin on public notice. Whatever others might do, he %I not think that be would have made the demand of the salary or challenged the votes of the House in its PPort. In last session the majority was so small in his 4 " 11 r, that the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) . came Vva arnent,s and out of a decent regard to the sense of 'oll gave up, in his same, the war salary. In was done at the hint of Parliament, and the Anourable Gentleman himself cook the credit of the act ' He (Lord Milton) hoped the House of Com -I"ns would compel him 'to surrender, and mild re -444 the credit of retesting from him that.° which be was not entitled. ile hoped it would shew hint, that while many were sacrificing what they had A right to enjoy, he would not be the only person allowed to prey upon the distresses of the country, and to increase his emoluments at a time when the Prince Regent was reducing his. A lesson should now be read to him that he would never forget. (Hear.) The na tion called upon Parliament for economy. They did not do so without just cause. They had trusted in Government, and they had reason to suspect its sincerity and good faith ; and they therefore called upon the House to protect them from the extra vagance of the Administration—agalbst that sys tem of favouritism which would he the bane and the destruction of any count:) , —(!fear, , hear). —lf there was now something dome for the country, in the way of reducing their burdens and protect ing their interests, it would be a better answer to the Reformers than all the speeches of the Right Honourable Gentleman ( Mr. Canning ) , who did not think Reform necessary, and who used the extraor dinary phrase that the House was as " perfect a re presentation of the people as it needed to be." He (Lurd Milton) did not see any limits to the perfection of the representation, and thought it was never as perfect as it needed to be, unless it was as perfect as it could be. The influence of the Crown had in creased, both within the walls of Parliament and with. out, and should, both in doors and out of doors, be ' reduced. If it was not lessened in time of peace, there was no chance that it would be lessened at all. He bogged pardon, however, for wandering from the subject into the question of Parliamentary Reform ; and could only plead as his apology, that Parliamen tary Reform, when it came across his mind, touched so powerful a chord, that it vibrated for some time without his commit. The best reform was a reform of the House itself, shewn in controuling expendi ture, and watching the general interests of the people —(Hear, hear).—On these ground. be would submit to the House a Motion, that the issue of war salaries to the Secretaries of the Admiralty, and other officers, to consideration of the eipedition to Algiers, was Ito called for, and therefore . an improper application of the public money. The question being read from the Chair Mr. CROKER rose to defend himself from the' charges of the Noble Lord, and hoped, in doing so, , be should . experience the same candour and .inJul gence which had been extended to an Honourable; and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham) in a for suer part of the evening. He ( Mr. Croker) from the. estate of the accusation, had a claim upon attention while he replied to it. The Noble Lord had called him every thing which a Gentleman ought not to be, And accused him not only of being gieedy and rapa cious, but of engaging in a transaction which affected the emoluments ot others solely for himself-(liter.) He was far from deoying his personal interference in the act complained of. He had made the demand of the war salary because he thought it a matter of right, (Hear, hear ) — because be thought it due to the office he held.—(Hear, hear.) The sum itself was so paltry, (Hear and laughing) that he could not be sup. posed as-being influenced by any motives in demand ing it, but a desire to enjoy his right. Had he con sented to surrender the 8290 in August last, out of regard to the distresses of the country, it would have been said, s‘ You give nothing—you only abstain' from demanding what you have no right to enjoy." ieegh.)—He was as ready as the Noble Lord who accused him, or as a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Poosonby) below him, who had so honourably to him self offered to give up what he so well earned, to contri bute to relieve the national distress by personal uteri& , ces. He could place himself on 'a level with them both, in the promptitude and extent of his contributions ; but he would not consent to withdraw his claim from what belonged to him. He wished first to establish his right ; and after he had done so, lie would give what he thought proper in his circumstances, or what the necessity of the times demanded. He would not enter into the question of war as discussed by the Noble Lord. The issue of letters of marque, or the open declaration of hostilities, were not in the present mode of warfare the criterion of wars. The State of Algiers was not commercial, and consequently the issue of letters of marque 'and reprisal would have been useless. He denied that the expedition was fitted out for negotiation. The Algerines had given to this country just provocation, and imposed upon his Royal Highness the necessity of declaring hostilities, except immediate submission followed our demands of repa ration and security. Lord Exmouth went out accor dingly with a treaty already framed, and offered the Der only the alternative of yielding to our arms, or accepting its conditions. But, said the Noble Lord, suppose the Dey had submitted without fighting, and agreed to sign the treaty, hostilities would not have followed, and the Secretaries could not have claimed the war salary. He (Mr. Croker) admitted this to its full extent; if war had not followed, he would not have claimed the addition (a laugh) ; but the ques tion was not to be determined by that of peace or war. The Honourable Secretary read the Order of Coun cil which regulated the salaries, and contended, that as the war salary was to be a compensatiou for the additional trouble attendant on fitting out an expedi tion, and likewise a commutation of the perquisites that war produces, he was fully entitled to it when war followed. The last war with France was a war of only one day : the whole campaign was terminated in one day. The Noble Lord had said, that he con sidered there were other persons in the Dock-yards who had war and peace salaries : but the fact was, that the Secretaries of the Admiralty were the only persons on war and peace salaries.—es I have only to say," added the Honourable Gentleman, " that I *ever demanded this increase of salary as a favour, but as a pure right. As a favour I would not have received it; but I thought it due to the of to Which I belonged to demand it as a right, and I do toot think that, in justice to my successors, I could have refrained from making that claim. I hope, that whatever the Noble Lord may think of this mate ter, the House will not consider he has a right to in vestigate the motives of my private conduct. There' are tfiose in this House who will view the subject in its proper light, and who will feel with me, that if I had noes clear right I should never have made the demand. I will so more, that if the business had not been completed before the tisane eclay . ,I am not, sure that I would not so far have gratified nay per song fedings as not to have made the demand (Near.) should not merely have thought that the occasion presented itself, withon considering what was due, to my own O'_ slings. Does any dentieman think that I supposed the Noble Lozd. of any other person, would not have taken notice of this ? Was there any crec whatever in any part of the transaction ? I perfectly aware when I took it, that I should trove to explain the grounds on which I took it ; and I repeat, I thought it a duty to make that dernind. It is a question merely of pure right. It c:rtainly ,toes not become me to speak of the manner in which I fulfil the duties of my office; but I may he allowed to say, that. 1 fulfil them to the best of my ability : and as to this increase of salary, I made the demand in a way from which I never thought, till to-night, that any body would impute to me unworthy motives." Mr. CALCRAFT thought, after what the Ho- ' nourable Gentleman had said 7 -namely, that if hoiti- Hoes had not taken place, he should not have consi dered himself entitled to claim that salary--that he might as well conclude the debate, and compound the matter with the Noble Lord. Let the Honour. able Gentleman pocket his five pounds three shillings, and there is an end of the matter--(Hear, It must be admitted, however. that the chief blame of this pettifogging transaction rested with the Lords of the Admiralty. The sum itself was small in amount, but great and important with reference to the sufferings of the people. When the demand was first started, the Navy Board were so completely in doubt about it, that they applied to the Admi ralty to know whether we were at peace or war?— The Lords of the Admiralty, who knew what our actual situation was, should immediately have put their Veto on so ungracious a demand, and have re fused a salary which placed a subordinate Board in doubt whether it could be allowed or not. Lord Exmouth went out with a treaty in his hand, and in case the treaty was not accepted war was to take place. The treaty was refused, and in consequence . a war was commenced, which was concluded in two days. The only claim, therefore, which the Admi ralty should have admitted was during that short period in which hostilities were waged. It they had done so, then, with all the anxiety and delicacy of the Honourable Gentleman for the precedent, and for the benefit of his successors, when he was told that the increase of salary would amount to no more than five pounds three shillings, his susceptibility would have ceased, and the House would not have been occupied on this very frivolous and paltry dis cussion.—(Hiter,lasar.)—He thanked the Honourable Gentleman for his cheers; but the question lay in so, narrow a compass, and the Honourable Geatteman had so completely stated himself out of count, that be was at a loss what farther to say on this subject. He remembered the attempts to increase the salaries on the orders in Council, and he supposed the Hon. Gentleman thought this a fit opportunity to shew, that he would take the earliest occasion to recover 'that which the House of Commons had deprived him of But what were the reels merits of the case ? Ought not the' Honourable Gentleman to refund all above the two days ?—(Hear, hear.) — The Order in Council stated, that the salary of the First Secretary should be fixed at £3,O(X) in time of peace, with an additional salary of £l,OOO in time of war : but what was a time of war, according to the spirit of that order ? It was not the mere firing of shot fur which an increase of salary was to be given ; it was the additional trouble that ought to entitle him to the additional remuneration. Now, what addi tional trouble had the Honourable Gentleman expo. rienced in fitting out the expedition to Algiers ? What additional ships were put into commission for that enterprise? He believed none beyond the peace esta blishment ; and this was enough to shew, that the Honourable Gentleman did not understand the orders in Council od which he had claimed this additional salary. Hostilities lasted only two days ; and all be could claim was the difference between what lie re ceived, and a remuneration for those two days.— (Hear. hear.) —The Lordkof the Admiralty had a. great deal to answer for to the country, for promising to the Honourable Gentleman the full war salary. Little (Ile repeated) as it was in amount, and titian portant as it was in the whole, in money, it wasmost material in point of principles, and not only chewed a contempt for the feelings of the people, but a total disregard to what had passed in the proceedings of 'that House. —(Hear, hear.) Sir JOSEPH YORKL said, the question to be decided was extremely simple. The salary of the first Secretary was fixed at £3,000 per annum during peace, with an additional isl,ooo in time of war; the salary of the second Secretary was £1,500 in peace,- and £2,000 in war. Ai to the Commissioners of the Navy, they had only asked at what time the war salary should commence? He (Sir Joseph) con fessed that he had no sort of regret in signing the paper for the increase, and should do the same sort of thing if the paper were again put before him. In a private case any individual would have had a right to go before a court of justice to enforce the demand. The policy of making the demand certainly lay with his Honourable Friend—(Hear, hear)—but it was a matter of right in the Lords of the Admiralty to grant it. Mr. JONES said, the only question was, whether we were or were not in a state of hostilities? It had been urged that we were not at war, because the Noble Admiral was sent out to negociate : but from the moment the massacre at Bona took place, the Der of Algiers was required to deliver up all . the slates, or his city would be bombarded. He thought the Honourable Secretary, therefore, was entitled to the war salary; and he was sorry that his Majesty's Ministers had come forward to say, that they inten ded to make any sacrifice of their income. He thought that public men were by no means overpaid ; and it they yielded to the theoretical and wild opinions of demagogues, it would only be said that their libe rality was wrung from them. Sir G. HOPM observed, we must not consider that the war lasted two days only ; for, if Lord Exuaonth had met with any of the ,AJgaines at sea, he would have felt it his duty to attack them. Admiral MARKHAM said, after all he had heard on the subject, his opinion remained unaltered, that the Honourable Secretary was not entitled to the war salary. If this was to be called a state of war, what was to be called an armament ? An expedition might be composed not of ships of the line, and sent to some of the small forts on the coast of Africa, and this was to be considered a state of war. An armament dies not include a state of war. There was a Spanish armament, which was in one respect sim ilar to that sent to Algiers, because the Dey had made aggres-j sioni . but be supposed, if the Orders in Council had existed then. the Honourable Secretary would have demanded an additional salary. It was obvious, however, that the expedition required no additional trouble : there was nothing to be completed but the Armament. The Lords of the Admiralty would have done much better if they had promoted the officers commanded bombs, Which had been the prac tice on former occasions. Neither the House nor the country would have quarrelled with them for reward ing the services of those officers in the way they merited : but it was impossible to approve of their conduct in granting an additional salary to their Sea cretarie•. for a war Which lasted only two days. Mr. TI ERNEY would detain the if ,use a very ;lon dine, and should confine his observations more to the principle of this transaction than to the amount of the sum. It was a subject that required no amplt ficition, but he was persuaded that it would create more disgust in the country, and produce a more ge neral dissatisfaction, than a sum of ten times the amount. The Honourable Gentleman had said, he demanded this increase of salary as a matter of right. Now, if that point could be established, he should say that no blame could be attached to him. But in what manner could this right be established The Lords of the Admiralty thought, that the orders in Council should be considered like a penal statute. which was to be construed strictly ; but Le denied that an order in Council was to be so construed. The order in question only enabl-d the Lord!. of •h' Ad miralty to give se3ooo to the first Secret:ay darin3 peace, and an additional irlOtX) in time of war ; but this order Was not imperative on them—it wis a ois cretion which they were bound to exercise for the benefit of the country.—(Near, hear.) O.; the '2oth of November. when we were at peace with all the world, Mr. CROKER—" That is a subsequent Order in Council." Mr. TIERNEY—co Then the paper returned to the House is wrong." Mr. CROKER—" There was an Order in Council which was revoked." Mr. TIERNEY.••••" Then the Navy Board butte acted most extraordinarily in the return to us. I have here an extract from an Order of Council in 1813, by which the salary of the First Secretary was fixed at 83,000 per annum in pe ace, and a further salary of &LOW during war. , This is the only Order in Coun cil which the Navy iipard had before them. Then the Lords of the Admiralty refer to the Order in Council of 1800, which was framed by Lord Melville and the two other Lords opposite. The Lords of the Admiralty," continued Mr. Tierney, must necessa rily have a discretion. Did they want a new Order to reduce the salary ? No: they wooed an Order t 3 raise, but not to reduce it. The salary af the Secre tary was limited to a certain sum; hut h remained for the Admiralty to exercise a sound discretion whe ther the whole of it should be paid. The House granted to his Majesty a sum of money not exceeding so much ; but it was not absolutely necessary that the whole of that money should be expended by Govern ment : they were to save every thing they. could, and to account to the House for the difference. Now what was the real case here? A Gentleman who held a place during pleasure thought proper to de mand an increase of salary, and used the mockery of calling it his Right. What should the Lords of the Admiralty have said to him on that occasion ? The only way in which they ought to have replied to him was this : —44 Who are you that come here in this blustering manner and demand this right ?" The Navy Boaid were as - intelligent on this subject as the Lords of the Admiralty; and they very pre perly doubted, whether, in point of substance and fact, the country was in such a state of war as justifiel an additional salary. 01 the very same day, however, the whole six of the Lords of the Admiralty returned an order, stating, that it was consistent (what a word!) to consider this a state of war, and that the Secretary, therefore, was entitled to the war salary. These Lords, who affected to construe the order so strictly, should have recollected that the penalty lay on the peopl! of England, and that the strictness was to be for their advatitaged: These Lords had no right or power whatever to give such a salary as they had given. He did not think that any one could call it a time of . Wit ; and certainly no one could say that there was any additional trouble: there were five sail *of the line, five frigates, five sloops, five bombs, but not one of them was put into commission for this oc casion. Wk re then was the additional trouble ? Un less, indent, the Honourable Secretary thought that his office in time of peace was to be a mere sinecure. It was disgusting (for lie could find no other word) to see the Lords of the Admiralty straining the sub ject to give the utterm'ist penny against the people. —(Hear.)—The Lords of the Admiralty had dated the salary from the very day of the order, and had allowed it up to the very day of the arrival of the ratification. Nay, they allowed it at a time when they knew there was peace; for the dispatch of Lorl Exmouth had stated, that the action 4.v.is fought 03 the 27ib, and the treaty was signe4 on the '2h:h.— (Here Mr. Croker said, the ratification was not then received.)—What then, ;Ai Mr. Tierney, if by any accident the vessel containing it had been detained, or had foundered, the Secretary would, on this prin ciple, have had a right to demand his salary for three months longer ?—(Hear, hear.)—Could the House bear this—if they could, would the country bear it fhe order was given to prepare an Expedition en the `l6th of July ; Lord Extuouth then sailed, and nothing else remained to be done, unless the Hon. Secretary meant to charge for anxiety. of inincl.—(4 Lartg4.)—lie could not shew that there was any additional trouble after that : all his labour ceased When Lord Exmouth sailed. The country would from this see the conduct of this economical Admi nistration,. who, a/bowel* they had as opportunity of reducing th!..expeackure, had, on the pontrary, increased salaries wherefer they could ; and if in' any case a little was ;to be added, took care to make that little-as lame/ as possible.— ( [ fear, Ii a-.) What.l could not six Lords of the A.:mir Icy, a Id two Secretaries, get up a little expedition tii r..ect the Dey of Algiers without an increase of the Secretaries' salaries. I'he last time when the Honour di: Se- Csetary spoke of his salary, lie told the __ouse that is was forced upon him against his will. Did tne h H a o d u s se oo r i e l r e collect that ?foAr on n d tl y m et ve i r t y a n tr i a , ie , d po t r h t t af o l ty e he demanded what he called his right : and the L ui ds .ot the Admiralty, as if to shew how quarrel with them, had immediately smut lave could not pedition. much dea (Near, A: 4 that the at a state 01 1800, refu salted witl asked, 4, Admiralt3 War, then The Nary that there Inman: o anon du Admiral, of iscreas4 Crtlary to . of a quart It might 1 bare font mantis of extrernitie the Sec 010 piitelel he must h for nothin any addit kardment trouble, a that a p et thnon to not have 1 hour w as the liono ob in, u: n't merit What had Think that Peoroked again on did not tl the s a la ry I4 PPort. 1 14 sour, down, an fuliam ei this w as linuour a i act, He Irons ar o! ectra the unsalr it Vl,ls to y Agreed to the