Star. — London, England, 1810-03-29 00:00:00

1 gee-Ai:in often 'discusses!, not so much as to the right • of the Yslimse to commit fur breaches of privilege, in certain cases, but as to how far the exercise of such rights extended ; where their limits should be placed ; whether. they should he exercised where the.offence is renieciieble in other Courts, or the offence be brought immediately before the House and pronounced. upon. - . Ali these and more were points upon *Which much di'l'l -race of opinidii *xisted. He meant not at that sti•oe to enter upon the great question, nor to draw oily . particular limitations to the exercise, of privileges - • and ; nor to say whether the question of corn ' mittal by that House" in cases of libel should open their views to any.new law upon the subject ; nor to draw into consideration aed debate any particula'r' passages. in the paper complained of.. It would be, iirdeed, a question of great importance to that House,' • and to the subject, if, Nrhile they were occupied with anotheieimportant and complicate.d.discussion, they should rashly and impetuously come to .a decision upon this matter. It did not matter at present whe ther he agreed with or dissented from the Resolu tions proposed. lamight, perhaps, be incumbent on him to say something of his opinion, which he should do afterwards, and could not then hesitate to mention, since he always avoided the concealment of his opi-• nions. There was one part of the passages complained - of, he meant the last, which he was inclined' to think, -came under every definition of a breach of privi lege that he had known ; and he was disposed to vote for such a determination, under such modifica tions and amendments as he should propose. The passage to which be particularly alluded, states, that the }louse of Commons had, " by burgage tenure, " become the proprietors of the whole representation, 4, and in that capacity, inflated with their high blown " fanciful ideas of Majesty, and tricked out• in the 48 trappings of royalty, think privilege and protection it beneath their dignity, assume the • sword of preio gative, and lord it equally over the King and the gg people." But still, when he was called upon to call it ~ libellous and scandalous, and reflecting on the just rights and privileges of that House," he must ask, what were those rights ? He had run over that morning very'has•ily, a work of that great Lawyer, Mr. Hargrave. He wanted time to examine him and my Lord Hale. and other great Constitutional Law yers on this, and opportunity to mature his opinions. My Lord Hale had said, that such questions ought not to be adjudged by the House as are remediable in the courts of law. Was not a libel so? Could there be any thing more apposite ? Was not that the proceeding in the case of -Reeves ? Was he brought to judgment by the House ? Was not the Attorney General ordered to prosecute? He did not wish to' pretend to a shew of learning ; there were many points to consider ; one, he thought, might amount to a breach, bat the others required much examina tion. He was unable to decide whether a Member might say or not to his constituents whatever he had delivered in that House? This and. many other points were not clear, though included in the 'general de scription. Many of them had been stated by Sir Francis Burdett in the House, and had been enlarged upon and defended by others. How far he was right, having been here unrerrinvintiod by the Speaker, he could ,not tell. Another offensive passage began thus, that the House of Commons haA - passed a vote 4 , which amounts to a declaration that an order of al theirs is to be of more weight than Magna Charta,• 4 , and the laws ofthe !and ;" and ended by describing Is the House as a part of our fellow-subjects, collected " together ly means which it is not necessary for me to de scribe." Now, if the worthy Baronet had a right to say what he had said in that House, it was absolutely moderation in him, to forbear from stating the means by which some elections to the House were obtained. That after recent evidence and admission of the fact, be should have re stated it in terms so moderate and gentle, was matter of surprise The Hon. Gentle- man must not have recollected the transactions of: only the last session ! • (Hear. Hear.) He should abstain it m many other remarks on the facts charged; but would say, that there was no part of thealetter that had not h se expressed in stronger terms in that House, even than noose of the last passage; to a mo dified, model ate resolution of their disapprobation of which he felt prepared to assent; but on that he could animadvert afterwards. He wished to be sincere ; • but he found not a word that was not in Sir Francis Burdett's speech, delivered in Parliament at a time whets he had not himself the good fortune to be pre sent and give his opinion on the question of Parlia mentary Reform. it was delivered in the freedom of speech in Parliament, and why might it not be published ? He desired to .have constiutional learn ing on that head. He would avoid the merits ; but he desired a proper, calm, sedate consideration, of so gr:ave and important a business. As he hoped he might. call the Honourable Mover his friend, he would say to him, " grant time." Was there a man it the country who would not think that consideration was demanded ? He did think the Right Honourable Gentleman ,opposite was glad to catch at the opportunity which this business afforded, for diverting the attention of an attentive House, and" the feelings of an indignant people, from the serious discussions that were going forward, and in which the honour, character, and interests of the House and the country, were so deeply concerned—(Hear, hear.)—lie was convinced that his Hon. Friend, Mr. Lethbridge, would, in his cooler moments, regret that he had, upon this occasion, allowed himself to be made the instrument for such a purpose—(Hser, hear, hear) ;—and that lie should - have been persuad ed to throw out this :aft to the indignant feelings of the House upon that other great question !—(Hear, hear.) —He was willing to believe that he would be' the first to rise and second the Amendment with which he was about to conclude.-a•-(Hear.)—The nourable Member then moved, that the debate be ad journedaill to morrow se'nnight. Mr. LETHBRIDGE rote immediately and said, he did not rise to second the adjOurnment of his Ho nourable Friend. On the Amendment being put from the Chair, Mr. LETHBRIDGE again rose and said, that as the Mover of the Resolutions before the House, he could net consent to the proposition for adjourning the debate. He had most certainly, at the time when he brought forward the Resolutions, been sensible that he was entering upon a grave and serious sub ject, and it had never been in his contemplation to ' not been i placed. proceed in it with precipitancy. That hat at any time his wish, and he conceived he I himself in the hands of the had determined for him. nothing to do with the course But the argument of the - who had brought forward I the strongest ground agar Honourable Gentleman hat tion was of graver and greater importance twenty Expeditions, such as that to the Scheldt, or to any other part of the world. In this sentiment of the Honourable Gentleman he coincided—and if no other argument could be suggested for proceeding iminediately with the discussion, he should, upon that alone, refuse his - assent to the adjournment. He should not 10116u/the Honourable Gentleman through the various statements he had_gone intb, nor the. able arguments, as he conceived tbem to bei whiCh had i been urged by him.. He had humane word more to iteld, and he hoped the House would believe him as sincere in:the de'laration as he believed the nonour. able Gentleman to be in all that Itad Fallen from him. The Honourable Gentleman bad stated, previously to his making the motion, .that he (Mr. Lethbridge) had lent himself an instrument in this business to his Majesty's Ministeri. If he had so-lent himself, he should never cease to regret. it as long as he lived.— He had not lent himself to any man, or, to any serof men. The motion he brought forward had origi nated in his own mind, and he had been induced to engage in the proceeding, upon considerations of his own. Mr CURWEN was ready to assert, that he should have deprecated the discussion of such a luestion, and at such a moment. It was impossible that, at a time when the House was so wholly 'occupied with the con ; sideration of another; grave and momentous subject, that they could be in a state to pronounce a cool and deliberate decision upon this question. On a motion such as that which the House was then discussing, it was highly desirable that jieither individual feelings of I partiality, or party considerations, should influence their judgment. That 'was not a moment to bring such feelings into a discussion upon a subject like the present ; and he should call upon the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exche quer), to pause, and to consider the consequences that might tesult from adopting any precipitate course . on the present occasion. It was impossible for that Right Hon. Gentleman not to see the consequences that must inevitably flow from• any hasty proceeding • upon a question arising out of a breach of privilege, which might alarmingly agitate the public mind from • one end of the country to the other. For himself, he could conscientiously state that he had not yet made-up his mind upon the question ; and if he • should be . compelled to vote on that occasion, he must say that it was absolutely impossible for him to vote for the Motion. Were lie to vote, for that . Motion, he should be bound to vote also for the • strong reprehension of the House being expressed respecting the author of the paper upon which the Motion was founded. But the Matter would not rest there. -The House would be bound to resort to • some strong ulterior measures ; and before they should be driven to that awful necessity, it behoved , them well and seriously to consider whether the paper_ complained of really contained matter calling for the adoption of measures, from which might arise such a feeling in the country, as he, for one, would - most - sincerely deprecate. If forced to proceed, therefore,' 0 ; in this instance, it was his intention, nay, he must be compelled to veto againstagainst the Motion. If time, however, should be allowed to Gentlemen to' make themselves acquainted with the whole of the case, he was persuaded that in such a case there could ekist ,but one opinion upon the subject, and that the deci sion of the House would be unanimous. -As to the right of the House to commit for contempt, that was a privilege which it necessarily must have ; but it was also a privilege which should seldom be exercised, never ex:. - ept in cases where it was actually necessary to assert the dignity and authority of the House. All he asked Of' the House was, that he should not be pressed to a decision in the unprepared state in which he felt himself to decide justly. It would have been much better that this paper had never been no ticed, as in tivt case, lie conceived that it Would have soon sunk into oblivion ; but as it had been brought under the cognizance of the House, the honour of the , House required that some step should be taken re specting it. With this opinion impressed upon his mind, it was his wish not to be forced to a crude and premature decision. And if many other Gentlemen were, like himself, ready to avow that they were not prepared to come to a vote on this question, he would put it to the House whetber it was consistent with justice or decency to force them to it. Never had any questiOn been discussed in that House, which called for more temper, more consideration, or was - more intimately connected with the honour and character of the House. He should again therefore conjure the Right Honourable Gentlemen not to hurry on the-question to a decision. A little time would clear away the difficulties with which it was at present enveloped, and lead to an opening tojneasures, which might perhaps substitute concilia tion for severity. In his own opinion, the Hon. Ba ronet was in some degree deserving of the reprehen sion of the House, but-that might be so managed as neither to compromise the dignity of the House, nor transgress the bounds of jestice and moderation. He would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman how lie could answer, at a period when unanimity was more than I ever desirable, for the irritation and heated feelings which any other course would be likely to produce in the country ? If, notwithstanding, the Hon. Gentle man should persist in pushing on the decision, on him should rest the responsibility for the consequences.— He was well aware of the sound, mind and good sense of the people of this country ; and though they might be led astray by deception or passion, he was convinced that, ifthat House would shew that it was actuated only by a sense of its own dignity, without any regard to more partial and confined considera tions, the nation would cheerfully acquiesce in its de cision. But in order to produce this effect, it was necessary to prove to the public that in the exercise of its power or privileges, that House was not influ enced by any feeling against an individual, but really ,consulting its own dignity and character. On every - ground, therefore, it was his opinion that they ought to proceed calmly, deliberately, and dispassionately. The H6use could but recollect, that, in consequence of being led away by a contrary feeling, its journals had been disgraced by proceedings, which, though subsequently expunged by a succeeding House, would. - . . _ . - Aiseteetk tiptit that which had att . netioned why the sattit tittle should not be ail owe d n o w , alluded to the proceedings against Mr. when the Ch ~ .r allor of the Exchequer an d the L ord which, by giving way to the influence of Viscount Ca th reagh were chaiged with a breach of hostility to the individual, the House had the privileges ofthat Houses -.The Right Hon. Gentle. : into a course of proceeding subversive of man wo , ild recollect, that when that eiarge had been tamental • principles of its constitution.— first broug!lt forward, he rose in his place, and after ?ornament had afterwards ekpunged from stating that he was taken by surprise, made liii boW; journals the record of 'these oppressive and uncon- and retired ; after which,a delay of five days was al stitutional measures, still the . remembrance of what lowed before lie made-his defence. He had voted in then passed sureited, arid should be a warning to all the minority on that occasion ; and to the decision of 'future Parliamentscisot to give way to such feelings, the House in that - instance , and the condu c t o f hi s or precipitately to decideypon questions of a•similay Majesty's Ministers, they were to look for the &gra. , description. He had been ,ane of those who voted dation of the House of Commons in the:opinion of against all the arbitrary measures Avhich had been re- the people. . The House would alio recollect the case' sorted to on that occasion ; and, ii rile same pritt- when Viscount Castlereagh. was charged with bar ciple, now besought the Right Hon. Gentleman not tering for a seat in: that House, and was -sheltered by to press precipitately forward the ultimite decision the amendment of a Right lion. Gentleman (Mr.; upon a question of such importance to the reputation Canning) not then in his place. That proceeding ; and honour of that House. He trusted the example coupled with the resolution of 1779, whi c h ma de to which he had alluded 'would never be imitated.— such a practi ce a• breach of the privileges of that If the Honse were to come to a decision,it should be House, had contlibuted.to the degradation of Parliaz. such a decision as would be consistent with justice to ment. -He begged also to remind the House of the the individual, and to the dignity of the House. No threat respecting the dissolutiOn of Parliament; such decision could, in the p r esent instance, he impar- thrown out by the same Right Hon. Gentleman tially or dispassionately pronounced. As a Member shortly after be came into office, and of the realising of that House, therefore? who, since he had the ,ho- of that threat shortly after by. the dissolution of Par nour of a seat in it, had never been-influenced by any liament ; and then to ask, to whom was the degrada feelings of private attachment or party interests—who tion of Parliament to be attributed ? (Hear, hear.) had uniformly, on all occasions, and under.ull circum- On the present question then, of so much importance stances, given his - vote to the best of :his judgment, to the independence of th at House, and the inter ests and according to the dictates of hi; conscience, with of the nation, lie asked for time to consider it .suffi a view to "the common interests of the country—who viently . . The same . application he hail made twenty ,felt himself unprepared at present to give any vote four hours before, and to the period that had since satisfactory to his own mind, but who was anxious intervened, he hall not had time to consider the to pronounce judgMent on the real merits of,the case, subject. In this respect the Honourable Gentle he called upon the House of Commons to allow a man opposite, and his Honourable Friend, had the small portion of time for the more mature consideta- advantage of him: He had marked the passages tion of this important question. ' : specified by the Honourable Mover, but had not yet Mr. OWEN hoped that the House would decide been able to lock into - them. .In this situation, he without farther delay the question under discussion. could not think of deciding von extracts made by T'he real question now was, whether the House was every Gentleman, however honourable, without to suffer itself to be intimidated—whether any man . being able to refer to the context. The House would should henceforth' be at liberty to reflect upon its recollect the nature of the speech of the gallant Gene rights and privileges ? He trusted therefore that the ral •(Cranford) last night, who had produced a c:nr- House would have the courage to assert its unques- paign of his own, instead-of the imaginary carnpai a tionable rights, by not deferring the decision of the of the Noble Lard, and concluded with an Amend question befora them. • lie felt astonishment at the ment expressive of the approbation of the c nduct c:f Amendment which had been moved ; and he was his Majesty's Ministers, without any one document still more astonished at hearing the Right Honour- or argument produced in their justification. Whilst able Gentleman ( Mr. Sheridan) whom he had been the H.monrahle and gallant General was proceeding accustoined to listen to with r e s pect upon all consti- through . the cletails of his campaign, he could not tutional subjects, represent the p rese nt as a question but think that every Honourable Officer who had Of no urgent nature or importance— (Hear, hear.)— served on the Expedition would have wished fa. He could assure Gentlemen that he was ne t t to be in- • mountains to cover or seas to overwhelm him, in or. timidated from doing his duty. The Right Honour- der to escape the indignation of the public—(Ear, able Gentleman had said that the question was not hear.) When charged with a wish to delay the dis of any urgency. - The Honourable Gentleman who cussion nn the conduct of the Expedition, the Right followed had however stated, that, in his opinion, this Honourable Gentleman had referred to his conduct question wasof much more moment th an j ie discus.sion during-the whole of the investigaxion to prove the of the merits of the Expedition to Walcheren. The contrary. He was ready to _admit that the Noble quzstion, in Isis mind, whether his Majesty's Ministers Lord, not then in his place, had conducted himself were culpable or not, in the conduct of_ that Expedi- : with great propriety throughout the whole of these tion, was not to be put in Competition with a oes. • proc e edings ; but when the Right Honourable Gen tion, whether the House of Commons was to remain tleman referred to the papers not yet delivered from • independent, whether it was to preserve its privileges . the Printer's as a cause of delay, he must observe, and•authority, or to be beat down by personal inti- . that whatever might be the abilities of that Right Ho midation ? Whether such attempts were to proceed'. nourable Gentleman, he could do but one thing at a from Members of that House or persons out of it, he : time. It was the opinion of a great man, that that :trusted the House had courage enough to repress was the manner in which all things were done. As I them He agreed that this question was of ten times they were not pressed for time as. to the present ques. the importance of the discussion respecting the Ex- tion, there was no ground for interrupting that in tpedition. But the argument which had been urged which the House had been previously engaged.— for delay appeared to him extraordinary, as if indeed ; When the notice of the motion had been given ty the the delay of a few hours before they should come to Honourable Gentleman, it was stiff red to lie over for a decision on the discussion respecting the Expedi- twenty-fonr hours. Why then not lie over for a hinges 60n, would let thy evidence out of the minds of Gen- ! period ? He gave the Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. Leth tlemen. The statement in the paper which was the ;bridge) credit when he said that he had notlent him foundation of the charge, that the Bill.of Rights was ; self to any man in the course lie had taken ; but he made a bill of wrongs, was stifficieat to justify the i must be allowed to add, that the Honourable Mem- House in proceeding. But that was not all ; the pa- ber •had allowed himself to be induced by the Chan per stated that the exercise of the privileges of the 1 cellor of the Exchequer=-(Hear, hear.) The Hon. House of Commons was subversive of the laws and Member was willing to allow time, but the Right Constitution of the Country. Was that a proposi- I Honourable Gentleman had availed himself of this than to he passed over with - - impunity ? which they I question as a Godsend—(Hear, hear)—in the same should not seize the earliest opportunity of deciding i manner as ili drowning man would catch at a straw. It upon ? It would have a very injurious effect upon was an old saying, that many things happened between the minds of the people, if the House of Commons , the cup and the lip, as also did many things happen should imprison a person, not a member, for a libel, I between theilvtlter and the gallows ! (Hear, hear, and not dare to notice one of its own Members for I hear.) —He did not mean to say, if he was to go to the the same offence. The decision upon this question 'extremity, that the Right Hon. Gentleman was en• would, he was confident, increase those sentiments of I titled - to be beheaded, neither had he meant to apply attachment to the Constitution which hit knew to exist the allusion to him. Gentlemen might recollect the is the different parts of the country with which he case of a soldier, who, on tlieretreat in Spain, had been was acquainted. Ile thought the p issage in which tried by a Court Martial for some heinous offence,and it was asserted that ~ that House lorded it over the sentenced to be shot. The detachment of cavalrywas King and the People," was a gross libel upon the drawn up for this execution ; but, fortunately, the House of Commons. .He trusted, therefore, diat the enemy came► in sight ; the cavalry escaped, the cul- House would do its duty, and neither be intimidated prit was put on a horse r and fled with the rest, and so by a fear of the people, nor influenced by respect for the whole ended. As he trusted the House of Com any individual, to defer the consideratiOn of so im- mons would never shew any fear, so also he hoped portant a qaestion. that it would not manifest either favour or partiality /!Ir. WHITBREAD begged pardon of the Hon. to any person.—(Hear, Hear.)—He thought the Gentleman who had just spoken, if he could not, in House, by acquitting the Right Honourable Gentle - 'the outset of what he had to say, expresiliimself with man last Session, had shewn such partiality, and the same clearness in his own word.;, as by adopting thereby contributed to that degradation into which 'the language of his Right Hon. Friend, and saying, some persons supposed th e p u bli c t o consider it as that he had nener risen to speak on a subject of greater fallen. The Right.Honourable Gentleman had cer importance. Such were the words of his Right Hon. tainly been charged with abreach of the privileges of Friend, which that Hon. Gentleman had greatly mis- that House. Lord Castlereagh, however, bad, and stated, when he said that his Right Hon. Friend had if not for the gentlem an ly t er m s i n which he made his represented the question as one of a light nature. It excuse, which disarmed the resentment of the House, was because the subject was not light but momentous and the Amendm en t o f a Ri g h t H onour able &lid& that he rose then to ask, as he had done last night, for man (Mr. Canning) whi c h ga ve r i s e to the coinage some delay before he should be called upon for his of a new word, in th e language of the Right Honour vote. In justice to the Hon. Member who originated able Gentleman, "- lest a mistakeable record should the motion, he must say, that it was not his wish at appear upon the Journals," he must have been con first to proceed precipitately with the question. But victed. But the Right Hon. Gentleman desired that to the Right Hon. Gentleman over the way (the the House should not suffer itself to he intimidated. Chancellor of the Exchequer), who was mainly irate- For himself he could say, that he had never at any rested in the question already under iscussion, a time been . afraid to avow his sentiments. Yet at question, which the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat the same tiMe that -he would not be intimidated down, considered comparatively light, WAS to be as- from expressing h i s sentiments, he would not be inn cribed the precipitancy with which the discussion was midated to act with a take courage, or to do a thing pushed forward. The question which had so long in order to shew that he derst do it.—(Thar, liar.) 'occupied the whole attention of that House ' s° far from nor to do any thing, which, In his best conviction. h.! considering light, he regarded - a s one o f t h e greatest should not think right. If he were the only one who moment, as well to his Majesty's Ministers as to him. i was not, and had not an Opportunity to be acquaint- Self. (Hear, hear, from the Ministerial Benches.) He ed with the paper, then be might be the only one who despised such feelings as appealed to give rise to the should vote for the adjournment, and en a ground cheer, and would repeat that the question was of mo- which to him appeared unanswerable ; but. he h nf . ment to him, because it.was desirable to.every honest another ground, arising out of the good feelings of man to be enabled to be in full possession of every the Honourable. Members oppoo-o (the Mov and thing that could enabl e hi m to f orm a n impartial Seconder.) When he heard these Honourable Gentle judgment. The House would hive him credit, he was men, in. stating their sentiments, iii...iue to coii . -A cne, when he said that the ques ti o n befo r e it was i tions in. that House, and the spirit a" Jacobins' - "ut momentous, thOugh not pressing. He saw no reason iof it, he could scarcely believe that he was nctlistm, . House, and that ihe.. • . ere tided cl Further than tinobt ; • • *nil. 1!e 3rse that hac,..beett e "Honourable Gen feelings of h the Arrreasdpient furnish •; - carried ainst agreing to it. The the fundarr had stated, that this, ques. Though Pai 1 greater importance _than its journals