Star. — London, England, 1822-03-27 00:00:00

r `. L PAIgIAMENtARTNIPROCEEDINGS. % ahwagili.-!. NOUS LORDS. MARCH 116. • • the et . as read a third time and paged. ' ••• G mall • idea from several Oecopiert of Land in Lower Canada, complaining of Agricultural Distress. and praying that they might be •idlowed. to import their grain free of duty into the ports of Great Ifiritain.-:-Ordered to lie on the table. • - Earl DARNLEY said, that some time ago, he bad moved for certain Papers respecting the Stationery Department in Ire land,. These Papers had not yet been laid teat the House ;sod he now moved that the Return- be made forthwith.—Ordered. DISTRIFRES OF Tiil COUNTRY. Earl GREY said, that he wished to ask a Noble Lord op. posite, whom he then saw in his place, whether It was the in. tention of Government at this time, to-bring forward any mea sure tending to relieve the:distresses under which the country was now suffering • The Earl of ..LIVERPOOL said, that a measure was now pending in the other House of Parliament, cet the subject of the corn trade, and that such measure would be introduced on the Report, of the Committee of the other House , which was then engaged in its inquiry on that subject ; but he was not aware of any specific . plan of relief intended to be brought for ward, independent of the bin which might shortly be expected from the other House. Bail GREY in i'eply said, he did net eXpeet that any ad vantage would result to the country from the labours of that Committee; and as the Noble Earl opposite had stated that it was not the intention of Ministers to bring forward any specific Measures of relief, and as he (Earl Grey) conceived the cause of public distress to have arisen froth excessive taxation, he now gave notice of his intention, soon after the holidays, to fix a cer tain day for bringing before the House the question of national' distress ; and the object of the motion would be to bring about a reduction of taxation. SUBSTITUTES FOR COFFEE. The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, he had some time ago moved that there be laid before the House a copy of the Order given to the Commissioners of Excise, under which they had caused a quantity of roasted wheat and other grain, purporting to be an imitation of coffee, to be seized. The House had directed that the Returns should be made; and the same mot having been made, he again moved on Friday last that the Returns be made forthwith, and the House agreed to the mo tion: but no notice having been since taken of it, he wished to know in what manner he was to proceed in order to obtain the information he sought for? The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he felt that there was a great necessity for sonic regular plan by which the Orders of the House might be enforced. The great difficulty in this re-• spect arose from the manner in which the *notions were made. When an Address was ordered to be presented to the Sove 'reign for making a ceetain Return, no difficulty existed, and the Order was complied with as a matter of course; but when the 'Oider was directed to a particular office, there was always some confusion as to the parties whose duty it was to make the Ii:- turn. He should most readily concur in any plan, either by the appointment of a Committee or otherwise, which should have the effect of making an arrangement for the regular enforcement .of the Orders of that House, for the production of any docu ments that might be moved for. • The Nlarquis of LA NSDOWN then moved that the Officer whose duty it was to serve the Order Of the house, be called to the bar. This motion being complied with, Mr. QITARMT, the Yeoman Usher of the Black Rod, and one of the doorkeepers came to the bar, and were examined by the Noble Marquis. Mr. Cb:ARME stated, that having received - the order of the House from Mr.Walmsley, he gave it to one of the doorkeepers, and that the doorkeeper, by sonic mistake, had served the order on the Commissioners of the Treasury, instead of the Commis sioners of Excise. In the course of the examination of Mr. Q.larme rd the doorkeeper, the latter stated that he delivered the order of the I louse to Mr. Adrian, of the Treasury, who, on receiving the same, said it was all right. After the second moti, of the Noble Marquis, for making the return forthwith, the second order seas also given to Mr. Adrian, 'and he made the same answer as he had done before. The WIZ I ) (' lIAN C E It said he knew from his own knowledge th.:t there existed, at various times, a great difficulty of ascertaining who were the proper officers to whom orders for the return of p,:rers ought to be sent. 'got:lames these orders could not he en triced if one were to work day and night to ob tain what v.-as r:quired, and therefore some rule ought to be adonted in order to know upon whom orders of different kinds ought to he served. lle had ::n doubt but that the parties directed to serve the orders alwayi acted to the best of their judgment. The Earl of I VE:i POOL knew that there was always •ome confusion in ca.,es where the Ilonse did not proceed by Address ; and he agreed in the necessity of some plan by which orders should be sent in the proper channels. . Earl GREY said, that in this instance no misconduct could be imputed to any person, except the officer of the Treasury, who told the Messenger of that House, MI receiving its order, that all was right ; and be thought that circumstance ought to be inquired into.—After some further conversation, The Marquis of LA N SHOW X gave notice that he would m•we, to-morrow, tc have Mr. Adrian called to the bar, for the purpose of requiring him to explain his reason for the answer be gave to the Messenger of that House at the time he served the order upon him. CIVIL LIST. The Order of the Day for summoning their Lord ships being read, Lord KING rose to make the motion of which he had given notice, upon the subject of the Civil List. Ilis wish was, in the first instance; that the House should return thanks to his Majesty for the reduc tions he had recommended to be made in the ex- , penses of the country. Certain reductions were pro. posed, and so far they must be satisfactory to the Public ; but a :considerable degree of dissatisfaction. still existed in the mind of the Public, that future re ductions were not to be made in those parts of the Civil List which were not immediately connecteJ with the expenses of the Sovereign. A very consi derable part of the Civil List was involved in intri cacy, and there existed great extravagance in various other departments besides those connected with his Majesty's expenses ; and all this, he believed, was dune with a view of keeping up undue influence and patronage. No one, he believed, would venture to say that the Civil List was not within the cognizance and controul of Parliament, or that Parliament had not at any time a right to make an inquiry into it.— Ile should shew that, in the branch relating to fo reign Ambassadors, the greatest extravagance had been observed. He maintained it was the duty of Parliament to keep down this expense, for the Crown neither could nor had any interest in keeping it down. The Act expressly stated that when any extra expenses were to be incurred, they were to be turned over from the Civil List to the Consolidated Fund. The Crown, therefore, could derive no advantage from any excess of expenditure. The classification of the Civil List was not regulated on any principle of economy ; and it was at this time different from what it had been arranged in 1816. The Public were informed that a sum of thirty thousand pounds was to be taken from the expenses of his Majesty, and that there was tobe a further reduction of twenty five thousand pounds. But that reduction fell very far short of the public expectation. Queen Anne, at a time when the Public were much distressed, gave £lOO,OOO for their relief ; and that sum was Ns ' - public service. Now, although the coun t under much greater difficulties, not so per Cent. was given up. Here the Noble over the different classes of the Civil List, shew that the Public could not be satis the reductions already made or proposed to it, at a time when so great au alteratiau 1 t , tailor% All that could be granted would be spent, had taken placetin tie ;niece s( all She necess ... • iditrilseselscretary of State would say that it was ne life. After entinsbraOng thilinmageadted in to the Ro7alFam(lrand others, hirLorchhip observed 'may tbleep up the dignity of the nation by a li bels' allowance. But the real cause of all those es that, i s n a ; s t :aso s oti n g s h o t r h a a t t d e is s t o res me s, s th rn e penaiee establishments was the influence and pa etlties units/. winch the Public laboured ; and that !Foliage gained by them. !'tut Treasury Department when they saw what had been done in order to rithl s fo rec r th ei e v rit of great expense; so was the office of the ConaH !Wake deductions from the salaries of the great .Off* : . . ref.. Then the India Board-he could cers of' State, they were bound in justice to m ake n - ot - RoilThiqie Why - the India Board might nnt be en similar sacrifices.. With respect to the pretended tirelLabolished, and the business handed over to the Reforms brought forward in the year 1817, and the Office of the Secretary for the Colonies? But . the attempts to reduce certain sinecure places, no benefit fact wa s , that all those departments were maintained whatever had resulted from them ; and he wished 'fa - the sake of influence. Every consideration was to know what the Public had gained by the. falling obliged to give way to that influence ; and, for its in of the places adverted to at that time—(icar).— sake, places were still kept up, whether useful or not. With respect to the Bill of Reform proposed by Mr. That shewed the spirit of the English Government. Burke, that was far from being satisfactory, several If their Lordships were to look back thirty years, and places and sinecures were left untouched, particularly consider all the'campaigns of the Government during in Scotland. The way in which the Public would that period,, they would find no one maintained with receive any benefit from an economical lteform,would greater zearthan the campaign against the independ be by having the savings go into the public Exche- ence of Parliament. That was the great object; and (pier. There still existed some places of profit as it was to that his Majesty's Ministers applied their complete sinecures as any under the Crown. That entire attention, and, he was sorry to say, with great of Master of the Hawks, for instance, and he did not success. Bonaparte himself never campaigned so, know but it was represented by a Member of Parlia- eagerly or so successfu ll y as his Ma j est y 's Ministers ment. All the o ffi ces of the Civil Government were had done against the independence of Parliament.— new modelled in 1798. He found, on examination,• If it were asked why the Government bad not made a general rise in every one of them since. He found g reat reductions in the civil departments since the them universally increased, and in no case diminished. commencement of the peace ? the answer is, that The return on their Lordships' table did not appear they wished to sacrifice millions, disregarding the ' to him (Lord King) to comprehend the total expense amount, because something should be done to gra of the foreign missions. 'The whole amount of allow- tify their friends and adherents. The Noble Lord' ances granted to our Ambassadors at foreign Courts concluded by reading his motion, which was to the in the year 1792 was about £BO,OOO, and that inclu- following effect : ded the allowances to Secretaries of Legation, &c.— " That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, re in the last year the allowances to our Ambassadors _presenting_ the great expenses fei of the civil esta d bl h ishm b e i nts, parti cularly to £133,000, including the charge for Sc- tebtatrbiTottai Majesty expen sesmight of be f or ei gn ou m sr„l n e s ase , 7 to h um b l y ydirpecratyioni pray in g amounted cretaries of Legation. Then add to that the sum that such reductions should be made as were suitable to the cir of £13,850; which was another item belonging to the cumstances of the country, and consistent with the dignity of foreign missions, so that those missions which, in the F.mpirq." 1792, cost the country £BO,OOO, had become at pre. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that after the sent a charge of nearly £147,000. But the whole exertions made by his Majesty's Government to re amount of allowances to our- Ambassadors, Secre- duce the expenditure of the country to the lowest caries of Legation, Consuls, &c. last year was no less rate possible, consistent with its. security and its thait £229,000, whereas, • in 1792, the allowance for honour, he was surprised to find a charge brought the same was within £89,000. He could prove that against them of lavish and inconsiderate expense.— the whole of those charges for foreign missions, in- He had supposed that the strict economy exercised eluding extraordinaries, amounted to £288,000. By in every department of the State would have saved all the accounts which were laid on the table from them from any charge of that nature. The Noble time to time, it would appear that the increase of ex- Lord had referred to several Reports in confirmation penie for the Civil Departments since the year 1792, of his statements. He would also refer to Reports was not less than 140 per cent. What was the amount of Committees with equal confidence. He would of reduction proposed by his Majesty's Government? refer to the Report of .1817, • which had entered not In 1816 it was proposed to relieve- the Civil List of only into the most minute investigation of every certain burthens under the denomination of Extraor- branch of Revenue at that time, but lead also taken dinaries; which were about £50,000 in that year.— into consideration the lowest rate to Which a peace In 1815 those Extraordinary expenses amounted to establishment might be brought. The establishment about £147,000. The Noble Lord then enumerated was at present reduced 1,200,000/. a year lower than the different expenses of the mission of Lord Castle- that Committee had ventured to calculate upon. He reagh to the Congress of Vienna, and of Lord Stewart, was surprised that the Noble Lord could, with the and. observed that that was a year remarkable possession of that fact, have made the observations for extraordinaries ! That was the minus memorabilis which he had addressed to their Lordships. No for the expenses of the Secretary of State's Office.= charge could with any justice be brought against his That was a year memorable for extravagance, and Majesty's Government for retaining unnecessary would be long remembered, he was sorry to say, to offices, or stipporting a needless expense. The only the disgrace of the country. The Noble Lord next apprehension in his . mind was, that they not only re alluded to the presents to forei g n Ministers, which duced the expenditure as low as circumstances would constituted an extraordinary. Russia particularly admit, but perhaps lower than they ought under shared largely in those presents. In one year no less every consideration to have done. Few people, in a sum than £12,127 would be found as charged in viewing the subject, take into account the charges presents to the Ministers of Russia. In referring to that have grown up during the late war ; they did the Report of the Select Committee, he found it not sce that the expense of the half-pay alone was stated that salaries would decrease in proportion to five millions a-year, bearing so great a proportion to the increase of pensions. But it appeared, in fact, the sum .of sixteen millions, which composed the that as salaries increased, so did pensions also. The amount of the entire Civil, Military, and Naval Esta allowances to Sir Henry Wellesley and Lord Stewart blishments. It was not fair to say that since the peace were increased in consequence, as appeared by a there were not efforts made to effect any reductions. memorandum which he held in his hand, of the high He was bound, in justice to the civil servants of the rate of exchange, which was then about 35 per cent. Crown, to declare that they had most anxiously la -But he would wish to know why those allowance- housed for retrenchment. An equal share of merit were not reduced when the exchange was in our for their exertions was due to those who had spent favour ? When Mr. Canning was in Portugal, the the greater part of their lives in the service of the allowance was £l,OOO a-year. By why was not those State, as to those who had acquired distinction in allowances to oisr foreign Ministers diminished ? defending it. He would say a new words as to the The answer was plain. They would then be less doctrine vf the right of Parliament over the arrange worth the notice of Members -of -Parliament. A ment of the Civil List. He would admit that on person mho had no connection with Members of the general principle there was no question that could Parliament, would have little chance of being sent be put altogether out of the jurisdiction of Parlia out as Ambassador to a foreign Court. He ought, merit, if a sufficient reason was shewn for its inter probably, to except Sir C. Stuart and Mr. Hill, the fereuce ; but he spoke on authority, when he asserted late Lord Malinesbury, and one or two others.— that, as long as the Crown kept within the bcunds of With these few exceptions, it would be found that the Civil List, there was no ground for its inquiry. I none were sent on foreign missions unless those who He was ready, however, to allow that the particular ' had connections in Parliament. But he could not branch then under discussion was within the controul conceive what Ambassadors had to do on some of of Parliament, according to the arrangement of 1816. those missions. There Was always an Ambassador With that consideration, it was an exception to the 1 at the Hague. There was good reason formerly.— general rule. The Noble Lord had said, and said That bad been the great centre of commerce for all truly, that on the accession of his present Majesty the States of Europe. It was a place of great im- the estimate for the Civil List of 1816 was adopted. portance; but it was not to be considered at present He had endeavoured to shew that, in 1820, from the as a place of importance. Was it worth while to be alteration in the value of the currency, a reduced at an expense . of 12,300/. a-year to Lord Clancarty estimate should hive been taken. He (Lord Liver for his residence there? It might be a convenient pool) could shew that, at the time the Report was thing for Government to have certain Gentlemen made, the exchanges were in favour of this country ; paid large sums for residing in foreign countries; gold was below the Mint price. Whether their Lord but why should those sums be paid at the expense of ships took the year 1820 or 1816, he bad a right to the People of England! These were great diploma- take -it that Estimate was not founded on high prices, tic jobs. There was an expense of £4900 attending or on a high currency, but under circumstances as the embassy to Switzerland, a thing which cost here- low as those of the present moment. The Noble tofore only £220. He was at a loss to know what Lord then said that in that House, and in the Hoase would be the nature of the defence, which would be of Commons, an Address was moved to his Majesty set up by Government for these extraordinary costs. that an inquiry should be made into all offices where The Secretary of State might perhaps say, that they the salary had been increased since 1797—(1Iear).— were necessary for preserving the balance ,o 1 power The Government did institute a most minute investi ia Europe. If, indeed, he said they were maintained gation ; the result of that inquiry would soon come with a view to preserve a balance of .power in the before their Lordships in a legislative state. It would House of Commons, the thing Would be intelligible prove that they had - done all that was due to Parlia enough. In order to preserve the balance of power ment and thCtountry. The Government might have in the States of Europe, it was necessary' to have a stopped theret they were not called on to apply them person at Turin to be the guardian of the Alps. It . selves.lo '44 tithes than those raiied since 1797. was impossible to preserve the balance in -Switzer- They felt that they could not exercise with strict jus land without an expense to England of E4;900. It- nice the duties they were called. on to ' orm, with was necessary to incur an expen s e of £12,300 b y ' re - out great hardship to many individt 4 s. r - I perf 'll : bey con serving the balance of power at the H ague . • ril e sidered it their duty; in the next place,' to recommend- Noble Lord then made some observations on his eh to m • t ajesty to *take an Order in council, impos.; office of the Secretary of State for the Fcireign De- ing a tax of ten per cent. on all salaries in every de partment, and expressed his opinion that the greatest partment. There were but two exceptions reductions should be made in the salaries of those of- xecommendation—the situation of First Lo rd of the ficers, for which other'provision had been made by Admiralty, and . that of the Chancellor 'of the Ex- Parliament. Much had been said of reduction, but chequer. it should be recollected, thatwhatever de when circumstances enabled their Lordships to make scription of property or of income had gained or lost those reductions none were made. He did not think during the fl uctuations of war or pea c e, the s alaries there was anything ungracious in asking the Crown of officers had remained stationary • in every change, to make such reductions as would approach the last without any advantages derived from improvements peace establishMents, particularly in the allowances that affected every other income. Their Lordships to Ambassadors. No matter how 1 1 1 1 1C 11 was grained would hear with much satisfaction, that k was the spontaneous offer of the .tovereign himself that ever y officer, even those most immediately attendant on hi s person, should contribute in the same proportion at all others. The whole of the saving effected by tho se arrangements amounted at present to £200,000 a year, and they had the prospect of an additional saving of £173,000 a year. It was, under these cir cumststnees, for their Lordships, for Parfiaersratt, a n d for the Public, to say if his Majesty's servants hav e not done all that could possibly be expected from them, and if they have not met the wishes of the country by the most unqualified retrenchment? Il e would next come to the third class, or that which tu a l p e . plied to foreign Ambassadors. He could no t se• the propriety of the Noble Lord drawing a comp ar i • son between the present time.and the period of 179 a In that year the rate of salaries was the same as t h at of 1721. No alteration bad been made in th e sa l ar: of any Ambassador or Envoy from that year, ro: to 1804. He would now submit it to any nerv a who had the least experience in that department,it was not positive ruin to any person to enga ge 1 3 any embassy, unless supported by a private i, n of his own ? This very question was before the Cnm. snittee of 1816, and' from their silence he ri.igh t t. justified in the inference that they did not consider the Estimates were more than the circumstance; fairly warranted. The papers were on their Lord ships' table to be inspected. He would submit it to any person, even to one not acquainted with the di plomatic line, if the salaries were gi eater than the most limited arrangement of expense would requite; or if the office could be supported without the addi tion of a considerable private income. An objection was taken by the Noble Lord to our retaining a l Ambassador in the Netherlands—he did not think with much justice. He (the Earl of Liverpool) sr , s of opinion that it became a question, if we shouY givz. up that Embassy, or all others, whether any ma.' :4- cpiainted with the politics of this country would n't say there was a most absolute necessity for keepinz up that in. Holland? Our Ambassador there was St:, ject to considerable expense by the removal of the Court every year from Brussels to the Hague, Which obliged him to keep up two establishments, one az each place, for the_ whole year. He was seidom more astonished than at the position of the Noble Lord, that the Netherlands was a Court to which we might decline sending an Ambassador. He appealed to their Lordships, if it would be consistent with the high character of this country, if we did not maintain throughout Europe our dignity by being represented at each Court? Would it not be disrespectful to the Courts-of St. Petersburgh and of Vienna, when they desired. to send an Ambassador to this country, if we refused to do so on our part? The question divided itself into two branches, whether the number of our Embassies was more than was required by the coun try, and if the scale of their remuneration was ore of lavish profusion? It had been stated that at Swit zerland-thrie was no necessity for an Envoy he con sidered thaf - a Minister of the first rank was most ne cessary in that country in particular, if they recol lected the strong interest that was excited for its in dependence in the year 1811.—if they regarded its situation in Europe—the key of Germany, Italy, and France. If they considered the struggle that must arise from the French and Austrian influence, ne cessity must be admitted that we should have an En voy.thete to support the principles of British pores. With regard to the Secretary of Legation at Dresden, there could rtizthave been a more useful appointment. He would inform their Lordships, that out of number of eighteen Ambassadors recorded befc:e them, fourteen had been regularly brought up in of fice, and had gone through all the regular gradation; from Secretary of Legation to the highest situation : with regard to the other four, he could point out par ticular circumstances that would justify the appoint ment of each. There never was a period of our h: tory when more regularity was obset ved in the ar• rangements of this particular department. It might be inquired w!ty the tax of ten per cent. levied on the salaries of all other officers was not applied to those of our Ambassadors ? He could say most ctnfidently that there was not a single case where any reductica could be made. No Minister had a salary greater tllan was absolutely necessary for the support of l::s situation. At a former period its amount was so in adequate to the actual expenses incuzred, that an al lowance was made for extra' payments, under the head of contingencies. That system had been done away with, and a necessary increase of salary was given. The Noble Lord concluded by saying, that no case had been made out to claim his support, and that he would give his negative to the motion. Lord HOLLAND said, that the Noble Earl who had just spoken had fairly admitted, that the Me which they had to argue was reduced within a nar row compass, and that the plain question which they had to decide was, whether or not the present scale of diplomatic expenditure was necessary, situated as the country now was ? lie thought it could have hardly escaped the penetration of the Noble Earl op posite, that notwithstanding his professions of eco nomy, he was liable to the imputation of being sonic what tardy in the support he had given to the reduc tions which had taken place in the principal depart ments of the Civil List. It was, indeed, 'somewhat extraordinary that the Noble Earl should take sa much merit to himself for the reductions which had taken place. Had not the Noble Earl, over and over again declared to their Lordships, before these reduc tions were decided upon, that the establishments of the country were then reduced to the lowest possible scale upon which they could be conducted with secu rity or advantage? How often had he not, in lofty language and with all the force of his declamation, asserted the actual necessity of maintaining_ at their fullest extent establishments which he had since con , sented to reduce, and declared, that so impossible was it, according. to his opinion of the state of the country, to conduct - the Government, except in the then existing state :of those establishments, that it it Were determined to touch them, it would only remain `foi:him to tender his humble duty to his Sovereign, and resign a situation which he could no longer fill, with insufficient departments in the other branches of the State ? Such were the repeated declarations of the Noble Earl in that House : but strange it 'seemed, that when reductions could no longer be re• sisted—when at length the time came of their being 'actually made (and with what grace, it did not re main for him' to say), not voluntarily, but by com pulsion, then said the Noble Earl—" These reduc tions 1 submit to Parliament as advantageous and 1 '. ' a time tuner $ up £lOO,OO O plied to the i E try laboured much as ai 1 Lord went o in order to s &ed with the be made iu ii 1