Star. — London, England, 1810-04-11 00:00:00

,---'- • . should be carcfulle 'enquired into, and the i Minisiers lila nd iight - tg, give him directions in tilt • , r , plea ti",„ a ined ; and when this was done, he hoped mode of extenting his Watra.ni, and that the 'cat ti , c ' e ll 'el — Sissec2rlw4ould take the same into their considera. was a doubtful one, which arose from thesnitnner 'ii i %viola adopt some measure to Convince the which the Honourable Baronet chose to resist the ex fon, :a , i -alive to every thing wh i c h might ! ectifton.of the w arr a n t. • ..7,. •,;,tr, ,sere have produced the death of a citizen, in - I Sir JOHN Sdi EBRIGHT thotitlit that l e Honk I f:'• :-:-or..it,:ly emanating froM the pro- ; and the miry were under the, giniteit "ObligatiOni te cc''"llnce of any thing r -I- Hou se. He must prefer the motion to the Hort. Gentleman wile had,prOpoied proceeding ,re. •s or the . (f,72.jcournrnent to the Resolution of the Right Hon. to the utmost extremity agaiiiit Sir Francis - Burdett. Got t e man, because he . thought lf the reason Fi ii Adduced He could not have conceived it possible that he could ifs su pport of it was against . . Sir eanc s uedett I have had recourse to . the violent:maim:el he had shatim see hi s errors, .and , peti h tion ld the Honse, he adopted; for if he had merely "wished to trya question thooa st all traces of animosity son be done Oval., s r of legal right:, there.was no use in stirrialatnig The mob and t ie, Letter should never be remembered more ; to tumult and ccmfasion. Why dill *stiffer:We mob insaad o f which the Right Honourable Gentleman . to crowd before his door on Suridiylast, aird'oblige san .. es it for the purp ose of holding this Letter up id bat everybody who passed it to take off their hats? He; of his petition being attended to . by . the Hpuse. He for his part, would not, for twO or three da y s, pass i s h ou ld therefore support the motion for adjournment. through Piccadilly either on horseback . or •in a - car- Lord TEMPLE said, that from the whole state- riage ; for he did not chuie tiihe cbineidled by . a . nioli 1 ' t eent he had heard, be was completely con v inced of to pull off his hat . He lamented*Much to'see, that t l e misconduct of Ministers. It . appeared . - that on: whatever was the subject•of disciiiioh, something was' einlay niglit the Spe aker desire d the * waist to in- always extracted: from it to serf e the purposes of fail) Ministers that the warrant would be resisted, pairtY—(Losid cheeriagfrom the Miseisterialßenchiv.). n ap) demand assistance from the Secretary of State He agreed most perfectry with his Iron. Friend' (Mr. .... yet not hing had heen done till Monday morning. : Curwen), and should his motion. - As to the v ed Ministers entirely to• blame, and looked Serjeant at Arms, he could not avoid saying•of him, N o concei •,„ a e rn as answerable for all the blood that had that he did not know any man who was titter for a b bet P;a i s e cl, and all the lives that had been lost on the situation where activity and personal courage were etca,,, . .. 1 • As to the motions before the House, he ;necessary,, slot ad prefer that of the Right Honourable Ge ntle- 1 Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY was for the postpone arm, because it took notice of Sir Francis Burdett's 1 ment of the question. He felt as strongly as any letter to the Speaker as an aggravation of the offence, ; Member the gross impropriety of the Letter which o f might be produced in bar to any petition or other I was the subject of the present debate ; but at the ap pc,ttiOn to the House for his release from confine- same time having already delivered his opinion, that sa:::. l .the original Letter of Sir Francis Burdett to his Con- Tie AT TORNEY GENERAL said, that it had ' stituents, with the argument subjoined to it, did not b.cn stated in pretty strong terms that if Ministers : amount to such an offence as to merit the severe cen hadforieeen the consequences of executing.the war- , sure of the House, he could not now vote that this rant, they never would have advised it. He, for his , Letter was an aggravation of that offence. As to the part, ag-eel entirely with some of his Honourable ! conduct of Sir Francis Burdett in his manner of re friends, that even if the consequences could have been .i risting the warrant, he did not mean to justify or pal entirely foreseen, the House would have been still ! Hate it in any manner. lie really was astonished land to aseet their privileges in the manner they 1 that the Hon. Baronet could have been advised to had done. He regretted as much as any man what• i take the course he had pursued. If he had a mind fret calamities had taken place ; but still this consi- i to try a legal right, he might as well have chosen to (laation would have bed no weight in determining his i try it on a motion for haLeas corpus, or an action for vote. When it lied beet: decided that it was an of- ! false imprisonment, as put it to the chance of an ins fence which came properly i;eihir the cognizance of 1 dicrment for murder. if he had submitted upon the the House, he then only looked to the quantity of the i warrant being exhibited to him , there was no Law dime, and the mischief it was calculeted to produce. 1 yer who could say, that be would thereby have given It was clear that no greater insult could be off e red to up any of his legal rights, or deprived himself of any the House of Commons, than that which the Hon. remedy which the law could give him. He did, Liroaet intended to convey in that paper upon which however, feel some surprize, when he heard Honour the House had decided ; and he drought that an of- able Members in that House say, that if they bad fence of such a nature ought not to be punished foreseen all the consequences, they would have easaly hv a reprimand. In case of a reprimand being voted as they did. Net to say any thing of the cab. core:Wei a sufficient punishment, there were always mities which had taken place, he would ask, was it tiro parties considered, namely, the person who was to nothing that the character of the Home should fie the reprimand and the person who was to receive live suffered lay having that power now called is NOW, %viten the person who was to receive the re- in question, which was before supposed unques- C:aind stated such nn utter contempt of the autho- tionable ? ' As to supporting the dignity of the Se sf those who gave it, as the Honourable Bare- House upon this occasion, those who talk most :el 11 professed to feel, the reprimand would be no of its dignity opposed the expulsion. of Sir Frans i.lirecn , .. It would lea like ordering hint to receive cis Burdett, from tl.e idea that not only the rah :eeriest:id from his own servants, in his servants i hle or mere bays, but that the householders of the Lii. (:ita-sours of disaMmlation.) He meant that greet city of Westminster conceived that House to iiis was the light in which the Honourable Baronet be so much in the wrong that they would undoubt nigh feel a reprimand frem the House. It appeared edly re-elect him, if he were expelled.—(llear, hear.) kallni that l:e set no mine value upon the authority What kind of dignity, then, was that which had no of tletHause than a Right Hon. and Learned Gen- reference to character or the opinion of the corm *lran win had filled that chair formerly professed, try ? When it was asked from the other side, did (ti!r Vicar:Gibbs here alluded to Sir Fletcher Norton, those who sat on his side of the House, foresee the ah, ai2, that he would pay no more attention to the consequences of the vote, he would sly for one, that rec:eitee of that House than to those of a set of drun- he did, and warned the House of the consequences ; tcl f rters). Ile blew no punishment adequate to but if he had foreseen more clearly what would have via an tart:ace except imprisonment. However he taken place, he could not have spoken 'more expli sesetted the calamities which had happened, if the citly, without being li.tble at the time to the charge of li.;.)us had ordered any punishment slighter than that suggesting things that otherwise would possibly not l; imprisonment, it would have beer supposed that have taken place. He certainly thought the conduct they were afraid of consequences ; and if it were once of Ministers blaineeble (an expression of disapprobation reposed that this House was governed by considera- from the Ministerial Beaches.) He did not know how eons of that nature, its character would he entirely to reply to these inarticulate arguments, bat would last. If it were said that Minisr*: . s were deserving of wish to hear what was to be said on the oilier side. sarious blame, for not foreseeirat all the possible con- Captain PARKER, in a tone of great animation, seeences which might follow from the execution of animadverted upon the alledged impropriety of the I the warrant, he would answer, that it was as much Learned Gentleman's aiding, by his councils, the the duty of the Gentlemen who spoke from the other , efforts of the Honourable Baronet, to exalt in the We of the Hianse upon that question to have foreseen i country a standard of sedition and tumult.—(Cries of those consequences ; and if they had foreseen them, ! Order, order.) it was their duty to have stated them. Ministers cer- 1 Mr. PONSONBY rose to order, and was proceed. Willy did rot expect that sort of resistance which had ! ;lig to comment upon the highly unparliamentary led to the present discussion. When the House had ! language that lied been resorted by. the Honourable voted for the committal of Sir Francis Burdett, he Gentleman, when took it for granted generally that the warrant would i Captain PARKER readily ncknowledeed, that he hare been executed, and he did consider the particu- , had been inadvertently hurried into an expression that lap circumstances which might take place. He would I could not at all apply to the Learnes! Gentleman, and ask, did any oneof those who voted against the ma- I apologized to that Gentleman and the House for the ;linty foresee or anticipate the sort of resistance : error he had been momentar i ly heti-ey ed ;tam He which w as ma d e :—lt certainly occurred to, him, I could not, however, help expressing his - wisli, that the and to many others, that some resistance wan ex- ; House would adopt the proper course at once, and 1 peered from abroad. It never occurred to him ' expel . Sir Francis Burdett. The objection to that that the resistance would have come from the Ho- ! seemed to be, that Sir Francis would be returned trisrable Baronet himself, who had so recently I again; hnthc had too good an opinion of the good sease declared under his own hand, tliat the House had ! of the Electors of Westmin•ace to believe that possible. aright to commit its own Members. if he had been s , He was satisfied, that when once they knew all the then asked his opinion, •he womb! have said c o n - , part i cul ars of his late condi at, they would never return 4m l Y, that he did not believe the Honourable La- - him to represent them again in that House. mot would have _ AttICER 17111.. i pt7r0011:illy resisted the execution of . Sir SAMUL:I. Resiteee and Captain P the warr a nt. It had been imputed as criminal in his ' tually explained. The farmer said that h ad Sir Francis l ijiestrs Ministers not to have made up their minds Bur de tt been now in the House, his - speech would pro-I. *tiler on the legality of breaking open an outer door. be* have been called one of dangerous t endenc y b y A must, however, he recollected that the Serjeant at that Hon. Baronet, as it was now by the Honourable ATMs had twice been admitted into the presence of Gentleman, ;; . ir Franci s Bei-dell, and had opportunities of execu- 1 Sir JAMES PULTENEY siid, that if die had a sing his warrant each time, in which case that ques- hesitation at first in giving his vote, he was now con don of doubt would never have arisen. Sir 'Francis vinced that his* vote Seas right. As to the interference Might have been arrested either on Friday or Satur" ' of the military, he knew that they had prevented a Lay, %%Wait the necessity of breaking open a door. good deal of - Mischief. 4 w hoped that he would not be blamed for not being , Lord PORCHESTER thought no language could a ble to give =immediate opinion on a case which be too strong to reproach the conduct of the Hon. _ *as ntt governed by precedent,. and where he had Baronet, from beginning to end. He Mt himself onlyto tom an opinion from ana o lo ,, v. If the rase obliged, upon this occ asi o n, to rall y round the House hail • tilt been a doubtful one, and within '.the general and the authority of the Speaker and his warrant ; custom of Parliament, the Speaker would have been but at the same time he thought that the calamities able to have given the Serj eant - -a decided opinion ; which had taken proceeded as 'much from the but it was because it was a doubtful case that it was backwardness of Ministers is &Om the intemperate ;',thteitted to legal inions. Had he been in the passions of misguided individuals. He could not l'"ez of the S er l eant at Arms , be wouldhave broken avoidconderiiningtheopiniOn given by a Right Hon. (.Pll the door in the fi rst instance ; bat he could not and Learned Gentleman (the Attorney -General) that_ - " 7 ""! the Serjeant to have taken uPon himself math •a reOrinnind from that House to Sir Francis Burdett, -r * l 4nsibilit - w . th the tl 't of l al - advice. would be like a /f a, ~ ), i out au ion yr .eg . . reprimand in the servants' ball from dadwe berleant at Arms had had recourse to rothrarY his own servants. He could not-see the justice ofahis parison, or how it could be adduced as an•argu . i n the first ' instance, without trying - the • civil r.":2r, and lives lead been lost, he would have justly 'Mein for iniprisonment instead of reprimand. It had e lPea A. himself to severe attacks from Gentlemen on 4iie a a, .: been' asked Whether Gentlemen on that snic• of the -_ey .de. fie thought ' that itithio evident . that , House appr aheadetinny oppoar.tion to the warrant ? dds that might have resulted frotn the Cale 'lost.- It would 'not be said that his M.-,;esty's Ministers ,were unacquainted with the scenes that took place, as they might have learned - them from one of the;s;nwa.b'n4 l --.(Lord Weemorlanntl, who Thal ttneassailrti cpith forxt inthi the mob.) Ministers .were culpable for having left Piccadilly during the whole of:Friday, in the poe. session of a' riotous collection, who nbhged-all that passed through that street to takb off their huts to the majestrof the snob. - Afew constables, employed in titte, would:have -dispersed - the assemblage of:boys, scarcely 15 engaged in that riotous proceeding. — 'The :nob that attacked the House of his Honourable Friend . (Sir JOhn Anstruther) might have been din. .perted in the some way'; as well as that which .had -assailed the House of . the Noble -Lord opposite (Lord Castlereagh). None but boys were at first concerned. in the-disturbances ; butwhen it .vras found. that thay were left so to tact with impunity,. others beat upon more serious -mischief joined, and th.as their fist march was to Downing-street. The military were resorted to upon that occasion, but not until, theniot had come -under the very noses of his Majesty!s. Mi nisters. The Serjeant at Armsliada right to.expect that those whoaupportedithe issue of the warrant, should have pointed ounto.,him•how it was to be exe cuted. If the .Serjearit had:gone to consult his Learned Friend (Mr. Adam); he was convinced he would have received mach-better advice than inappeared.he had received.• His Hon. and Learned. Friend had very properly not considered: the questicm.on.narrow grocadi of legal analogy, but rested it:upon-much higher grounds.; The Ifousemust haveevern power necessary to give effect' to its.warrant. 'What. other Court had the same power to sendits °Meer to search the house of a Witness for papers, as;that: Hymn had done last year in the. case of Captain Sandon ? The House unquestionably possessed all the powers necess sary to enforeits warrant, and it was with regrerhe found these powers weakened, by being placed upon lower grounds than those upon which ther„actuatly. rested. The warrant was an attachment of a: crimi- • nal nature, ,as having issued upon a conviction de clared by a vote of that House. With respect to the. question before them, he could not help agreeing to the Amendment of the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), though ; with in view to unanimity, lie should throw out the propriety oft substituting for "a high aggravation of his previous offence.," the words, n that the House had received the paper with great indignation." If his Honourable Friends should agree to a resolution so worded, they might pass it with unanimity ; but at the same time, he must add, that he had himself no. objection to the words of the Amendment as it then stood. Mr. BERESFORD observed, that however inde corous or disorderly it might be for Gentlemen to in terrupt others when speaking, by expressing the words is yes," or to no," the House would excuse him when he admitted that he was one of those who had so in terrupted an Honourable and Learned Gentleman ia that manner. If that Honourable Member were the* present, he should gladly make an apology to him. The ground of his interruption was, that to a ques tion put by the Honourable and Learned Member, he was anxious to answer that he did not regret the vote which he had given in the former instance ; fear how ever enigmatical it might appear to others, it was his opinion, that except the shedding a little blood, much good had resulted to t the Constitution and the coun try from the whole proceeding. He had voted tor sending Sir Francis Burdett to the Tower*, because he thought his object was to overturn the Constitution, and revolutionize the country. \Vhen he had used the words " No, no," it was to spew that he was no: afraid that, in case of his expulsion, the electors of Westminster would re-elect this sanguinary man ; he could use no other term, because, if he were not san guinary, he might have maintained his principles without hazarding the effusion of blood. He was not to be intimidated ; nor did he think the House would be intimidated by any apprehension from-a mob. If he was not aware that he should not carry the feeling of the House with him, he should move for the ex pulsion of that Honourable Baronet. He should, tnerefore, vote for the amendment of the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). Lord MILTON meant to confine himself to the subject actually before the House. They iced two propositions before them, one for passin over the letter without any notice ; the other a reso lution, that it was a higher aggravation of the former offence. — To the fret he could not give his concurrence, and still less upon the arguments employed by the nourable Gentlemah, its author, in rceomme i nd . ng it to the House, because,' if good for any thing, these arguments would be good against taking any steps against the Hon. Baronet. He agreed that it would be unworthy of the magnanimity or the dignity 4 the House, to be intimidated by any fear of the moli, or by the terrors of a Westminster' Election. But as he could not support the motion, so neither could he agree in the amendment, because whilst it agreed that the letter was a high aggravation of the previous of fence, it still stated that it was not necessary to take further notice of it at present. The letter either was' or was not an. aggravation of the fl:: . ruer offence . . If it was an aggravation, the House should notice In evading any notice of the letter, the Amendment . would have the same effect as the Motion. 'lf it.was . no aggravation, it was better not to take any notice of it. But as all were agreed that the letter was ate aggravation, the Itesulutton should be worded in another manner. The House was bound to take some further steps, which it was not for him to point out. And here they had experience of the embarrai meat resulting from their vote for commitment.—. Had they stopped short at reprimand, they might have still something in their hands. But they had expended all their antiwar:6on, and had inflicted the greatest punishment at once. It they had stopped short, they might, in this instance, send the Honour able Baronet to the Tower. As he could not agree in either the motion or the amendment, he should not feel himself at liberty to vote for either, and should consequently vote against both. Mr. LYTTLETON said, if ever there was an ac. casion in which unanimity was required, this was the occasion. He was surprised at the speech of the Fro nourable. and LearnedGentlemanopppsite ( Stephen ), opinion and was decidedly o (that much of the' - arising from the late sanguinary proceedings rut upon Ministers. As that, however, was not ftir question, he should not indulge in it at present should content, himself with sating that such • cona k et i on ... Thep g 41,4.1, he t -was convinced, die woul4 say tint he ail tanteMplate an opposition o' it; Mitt' that' whiCh hadlien 7 ititiditi the very pal •t, in which the gentletrie* on the; Other side said that he • had' ackitoviledged the 'right of'the House to ' commit iris Members. In that'very - paper, • hbwa ever, he found fault with a warrant' similar to that under* which he had been arretted:andtherefote there *is:reason to - stippote that he vftrald' dot h=ave Sub ted tb it. The Serjeant at'Attlis was 'placed in a most awkvihrd situation. 'Meek he asked fberirili tatty. aid, he' *at' tbid; that he should hare it, but that he *must' act at his °not' peril atdahat' if" any rives weieloat; andhis condact should tort' out to be ille gall he might behaneti forit.' It rearappeared as Mi if ‘ Osten, upon th is ' occasion, as ttpon4 former one (the WalcherenExpedition) first resolved upon a coup-de-main. ('tter, hear.). Bet afterwards, when they ,heard that the' Hon: Baronet had actually locked his dbor and put imp the chain,- this appeared tb them a combination of circumstances which 'seas not tb be foreseen. Their coup-de-main had then failed ; they began to'consider Piccadilly as a'fortress; and it required many meetings of the -CabinetCouncil to determine how it was to be' attatked. ( Hear.) M'r.-STEPHEN was a little surprised at the opi nion of Ris Right Honourable Friend (Sir Samuel Romilly), that as there was no original offence, his letter could not properly be called an aggravation. His Right Honourable and Learned Friend appear ed to go the whole length of arguing, that - file' Fian cis Burdett ought not to be in any manner punished for the insults offered to the House in chid letter.-- The amendment which declared it an aggravation of his former offence, would go so far in punishment; that if the Honourable Baronet, or any body for him; should petition for his discharge, this paper would then be taken into consideration in•assiving the pro per measure of punishment. As to t* conduct of the Honourable Baronet - in the mode of resistance he resolved on, he was glad to find that no Honourable Member in that House approved of it; and this was . a circumstance upon which he might congratulate the House and the country. The Honourable Baro net might have tried the legality of the warrant with out adopting the mode of resistance he had chosen. . It appeared to the other side of the House, that a warrant which did not allOw an outer door to be bro ken was absolutely nothing. They seemed, however, to have forgotten that there were many writs for " debt, in civil action, which could not be enforced by breakink doors. These writs were, however, not • leckbned as nugatory, nor did he sec that it would be any impeachment to the dignity or authority of the House, if their warrant was on the same footing . as many of the King's writs, which do not justify the breaking into a House to entorce them. Some Honourable Gentlemen opposite had said that they had foreseen the consequences which had followed from the vote for the commitment of the Honour able Baronet. But for his own part, he never could anticipate any resistance to the execution of the war rant, because the whole of the argument against that vote went to spew that it would be a triumph to the Hon. Baronet to 7p the Tower, from which he could issue his libels in abundance. It had been charged upon-his Majesty's Ministers, that they had not taken sufficient measures for the security of the metropolis; as well as that they had not given to the Serjeant at Arms a sufficient force to enable him to execute the warrant. As to the first point, he contended, that all proper measures had been taken to insure the peace of the metropolis. It was not to be expected, that the Government, in the expectation of riots, should have stationed a military force in every street. If they had so done, their conduct would have been most loudly condemned by the Honourable Gentle men opposite, for having endeavoured to put down the civil by resorting to the military power. Great credit was due to the Government for their precau tions, as well as to the military, for the moderation which they had displayed in the course of the painful I duty they had to perform. As to the charge that no adequate force was placed at the disposal of the Ser jeant, that had been so often already answered, that it was strange it should still be repeated. The warrant might have been executed either on Friday or Satur- I day, ' without any necessity for forcing the outer door; and in the end the warrant had fortunately been put in execution without any recourse to military force, or any effusion of blood. Whilst it was to be apprehended that lives might be lost on both sides in case of executing the warrant by force, what would have been the opinion of Gentlemen respecting the conduct of Government, if Ministers had ordered the Serjeant to execute his warrant ? If it turned out to be illegal to force the outer door, and that lives had been lost in a conflict, would it have been a justifica. tion of the Scrjeant, on an indictment formurder , to plead the directions of his Majesty's Ministers'? When a doubt existed in the mind of any of his Right Hon. Friends, it was perfectly right to suspend the execu tion of the warrant, till that doubt was removed by referring .to the highest legal authority. 'From all the attention which he had been able 1.0 bestow upon the subject. it was his opinion that his Majesty's Mi nisters, so far from deserving reprobation, were on the contrary, for the whole of their conduct, entitled to praise. But it bad been tauntingly asked, on a former night, whether they call this standing by the King'? To this he should answer, yes. To stand by the privileges of that House, was to maintain the authority of Parliament ; and to stand by the Parlia ment, was to stand by the Constitution, and -conse quently by the King. Upon the whole, he was con vinced that Ministers had done their duty ; and if the Honourable Gentlemen opposite should bring forward any motion for a direct censure against them, they would find themselves opposed by an unusually large majority. Lord TEMPLE stated in explanation that he had imputed it as matter of blame to his Majesty's Ministers that they had not till Monday placed such a force.at the disposal of the Serjeant as he deemed necessary to enable him to execute the warrant: . Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY explained, that he had never said that he had foreseen the consequences which had resulted actually from the vote of commitment, but that be'had foreseen consequences from that vote Which tie did not deem it proper to state at the time. Mr: C. WYNNE denied that it had been stated as a matter of charge against his Majesty's Ministers, that they had not employed the military in the first instance. 'The charge was, that the Honourable Se cretary of State being atahe head of the civil power, had not employed'it so soon as he should have done, and was responsible for 41 the daogcrous consequen e blame must 511 tn.ki ent; but was his , be but fh