Star. — London, England, 1831-03-05 00:00:00

(p ~~ . tire held by some of its members, he considered the union miraculous. If the Parliament w. re to he dissolved to-morrow, he would to-night vote against this inn as - revolutionary measure. Mr. .1. SMITH said he !should support the motion. It happened that at the last clectien for Chichester. that he had been assailed with the appellation re - a heroughmorger ; l'-t he had told them, what he now told the home, ;hat he admitted such a power vested in individual Lards was wrong—that he haul never abused that power. and that if any gambit would in the house move for a reform to take away such powers from individual.. that he would most cordially support the motion,— (Hear. hear) Ile acknowl.dged that there had many illustrious orna ments to the Parliament been introduced to that house through the me dium of the cloee borough system : but while he granted this redeeming c i rcums t ance . h e ors not the less opposed to the means ; and he was convinced that eumal talent would have found its way into the lameurable house. heel the system been less corrupt and objectionable. —(Hear, hear. hear.) When he heard the measure of his Majesty's Government, it haul en great an effect upon him as to take away his breath, he was so delighted with its announcement. (Cheers.) He ac. knowledged the superlative talent that had. as usual, pervaded the speech which had I te n delivered by the right lion. baronet (Sir R. Peel) the previous eveing ; but while he gave it all credit for its merit and very amusing qualities, he was compelled to say that it contained no thmg to convince any one of the propriety of opposing this great mea sure. The hon. bare knew as well as he did the bad effects of the ex isting system by which members could obtain seats in that house. The hon. ban. had designated the measure as revolutionary. He (31r. S.) would ask the hon. haroret if, to introduce fifty.four county members. looked like a revolutionary measure. He (Mr. Smith) was not afraid of any injury beine done to that house by the measure, for there was no part of it to which he had the slightest objection. The reason that this measure had become so very popular was, that the people had fel; • and severely suffered by the indifference of their representatives in Par. lientent—they had felt very sensitively the effects of nit exorbitant taxa. lion. He was convinced that the noble lord who brought it forward would hear the gratitude of the people expressed in his praises re. sounding from one end of the land to the other; and lie might censole himself, that if the bill did not pass now, that the time was rot f.:r distant when something similar would be of necessity admitted. The honourable member concluded with wishing that the noble lord might be successful with his bill ; and he add that it was a measure worthy of a free and an independent coun try —(Cheers.) Mr. ft A iAtRA FT deprecated the means that had been used to pre vent a free opinion being given on the subject, by the threats which had been held out agaiet those members who had conscientiously attempted to do their duty to the people of England. He had always done what he corsidetell to be his duty to the people ; but he would never be corn relied to aimed to their clamours when they called for what was oppesed to their interests and well being ; but it would appear that this feeling was not so prevalent—for a new spirit seemed to be springing up in that house. What might be the send. incrust of the people on this matter, he did not pretend to know, and he was desirous to gain that information, and he hoped that between the second and third reading of the bill, Ministers would give time to afford an opportunity of ascertaining the real opinion of the people. lie thought the proposed measure was not giving to the people what they waited, and what they had asked for in their petitions, but it was riving them more than they asked for, more than they expected, and consequently too much to risk. The Hon. Member animadverted at some length on the threats of dissolution of Parliament that had been uttered, and the name of his Majesty having been introduced for the putp.oe of intimidation. He adverted to the indignation which had been expressed by the late Mr. Fox on similar occasions In that house, when he had denounced as unconstitutional, the introductioo of the royal name for such a purpose. He (Mr. Calcraft) would like to know if the town which he had the honour to represent was to be deprived of its franchise for any alleged crime, or if it really was merely because its population was under' ,000 ! Now he could tell the Noble Lord that when the census was taken in 1821, that the three united ietrishes was only 1,900, and some odd numbers, but that now it e . ,ls 2,300, yet by this proposed bill the town was to be proscribed without crime alleged to it, or without trial, and with it there would be deprived of their franchise many valuable men. He had been acquainted with them for half a century, and knew them intima7ely, and they were as independent of him as he was of them, and if they chose could as easily turn hint out as they could send him to a scat in that Home. Under the new proposition he wished the noble lord every enjoyment of his new parliament ; but if it long remained a parliament he would he much astonished, for it would sure prise him very niuch if, after a few years. we should either have King, Lords, or Commons. He (Mr. Calcraft) had often voted for reform in that House, and he confessed that the representative system had not worked so well as it ought to have done ; and he thought that the evil might be remedied by a judicious alteration ; but what the noble lord called reform he (31r. Calcraft) called revolution. He had no to sitation in declaring that the mischief which would arise from the noble lord's bill would be irremediable. He (Mr. Calcraft) pledged his honour that when he came to town he intended to support the Go !refitment measure, and he assured the House that nothing had pre. vented him:from doing so hut the extreme extravagance of the proposi tion. He always thought that there were blots in the constitution that ought to be removed; that there were vast bodies of the people that ought to be directly represented, in those large towns extensive in trade. and that these ought to be represented by adding so many members to the numbers of the House of Commons, or by some alteration. He confessed that in what he had to say, he was about to admit the prin. ciple of the proposed bill ; namely, that if It had been found inexpedi ent to add to the numbers of the House, that some of the very small boroughs should be deprived of their franchise, and that the right seeuld be conferred to large manufacturing towns, (Hear, hear, hear) lie had always been a reformer, but when the noble lord brought in his reform budget, he (Mr. Calcraft) was reduced to a mere puny whipater of reform ' • he stood far too low in the auction of popu lar approbation to be hid for at all. He could assure the house, that if 'hey did pass the bill, they must not stop there. The hon. member for Middlesex had sail, that lie considered that vote by ballot was still left fee a future measure. and the hon. member for Preston had expressed the astonishment that his Majesty's ministers had ceded so much ; but sail he considered that the people had not yet got all to which they had a light, but that the bill proposed was a good measure to pave the way for the rest. If this were given, the overwhelming infusion of popular influence, they will soon have what they want, with the ballot and uni vomit suffrage ; when 500,000 were added to the voters, their argu ments would then be unanswerable. The tradesmen would come and tell them that they had given them to wield a barren sceptre ; that they dared not vote for fear of injuring their trade, and they would then beg of the house to give them the ballot, or take away their franchise alto gether again. (Hear, hear.) As it was, the bill would give much more titan was required, more than what was asked, sod more than was safe to give • and, not contented with that, it must lead to vote by ballot.— Ile had been delighted with the speech of the hon. member for York, who had been one of the makers of this united cabinet. (A loud laugh.) But he (Mr. Calcraft) thought that the unity had rather a doubtful ap. reference, when that hon. member had acknowledged that he did not approve of the bill, but that he had given his consent to it for the pur pose of preserving this unity. (Hear.) The hon. member concluded with declaring that he would consider himself acting inconsistently as a reformer, and to have committed a breach of loyalty, if he had giveo e his af.ellt to the proposed bill. Mr. STANLEY said. that during the eight years which he had the honour to fill a seat in that House, he had always been an advocate for reform—and if he had refrained more frequently from troubling the House with his public expression, it was because that he always conai dered that the cause was supported by abler hands. Rut on so proud !lent an occasion as the present he considered himself bound to rise and express his eentiment& He alluded to the speech of the honourable baronet opposite (Sir Robert Peel), and remarked, that on a former trete entous question, the honourable batonet had changed his opinion, end he hoped that when this bill had passed into a law the honourable I. eonet would, as on that occasion, change his opinion, and give it his approbation. %When the right honourable gentleman brought forward a great Constitutional question, wes he met by opposition ? (Cheers.) When deserted by his friends, who took up his cause, and maintained it throughout the struggle ? (Cheers.) He admitted that the right honourable gen:lemen was alone able to carry through lthe Catholic question. bemus: of the confidence which was felt in his zeal towards the Protetea:o Establishment—but he might at present reverse the pic ture. and raF. that he (Sir IL Peel) et uld not, perhar have adopted the same emeettres as the present Geweinn.ret with respect to Ireland, ht tame he u As suspected in his views of freedom and popular rights.— Ail tense who had opposed the measure had conie forward with the weal o revolutioilaryn He granted that the right honourable gentle. man was very cautious as to the word he used—he heel not called it a revolutionary measure. No. but it was a " new constitution." Sit R. PERT,—It was not my word. I quoted the Noble Loren— ( Loud cheers.) I :Abend purposely to the words of the Noble Lord.— (Cheers centirated.) Mr. STANLEY proceeded. His 1' oble friend might consider it a new constitution of Parliament. (Hear from the Opposition.) But there was a broad distinction between that and a revolution. In his idea, a revolution ails song great change effected in the institutions of a country by the application of an unconstitutional force—(hear, hear), —or infringement of the rights of cue branch of the constitution, by the exorbitant power of another. But a measure which courted public opinion, which could not 1 ass into a law without receiving the assent of the titter branches ct the la gislatine—wale lie to be told that such was a revolutionary measure. (Cheers.) Then they were accused of pre. venting the House from doing its duty by threats of civil war. On this subject he should quote the au:hority of the Right Hots. Gentle. titan himself. [He proceeded to read an extract front Sir R. Peel'. speech on the Catholic Relief Bill, in which the measure was justified by the apprehension of civil war.] If apprehensions of civil com motion were urged is an excuse for adopting a measure contrary to " still maintained opinions,"—(hear)—were they (the Ministers) to be Wanted, when in support of a cause which had been always theirs:, they pointed to the state of the country, and showed the timid and the wavering where lay the greater danger. (Cheers.) He regretted that any should, its the eagerness of debate. have brought forward the name of the Sovereign.— (Hear, liter, from the Opposition.)— But for that name being made use of by the public press, they were not responsible. With respect to threats of dissolving Parliament, it was only natural to soy that it was not impossible, in case of a hostile deci sion, the. Ministers would make a second appeal. But the menace was answered by a counter-menace—" Dissolve as," said the right hon. gentleman, " and I and the 166 members you wish to disfranchise win go down to our constituents. and tell them to return us if they wish their rights to be respected I)" Now however cogent such an argument might appear to the constituents—if the hon. member had any—it was rather on appeal to the passions than to the general interests of the country. As to the responsibility attaching to the low of the present measure, it must remain with those who, when they had not been able to remain in office, because they were against reform, would not, being out of office, allow it to take place. But the present was not the proper time for reform. And what was the pledge of Ministers? Had they net come into office expressly to carry reform ? If supported, as he trusted they were by the country, were they to comply with the friendly advice of the right hon. gentleman, they would have on their shoulders a fearful responsibility for having disappointed the just expectations of the people. The Catholic question had taught that house the danger of delay. If that measure had been carried long ago, it would have saved many a sanguinary struggle, nor would the testicle spirit which now put the population into the hands of any ne.n who wished to excite it have existed, making the boon, now that it was granted, comparatively of little value—(hear) It was with all such measures as with the Sybils' books, the longer you delay the less you get. and the dearer you purch ase. If Govern ment, by proceeding gradually, systematically, and firmly, had shown long ago that it was determined to reform abuses, the people might now be ratified with a less sudden change than the one contemplated. But look to the past few year', and see how much money had been spent in discussing some paltry questions. whether there existed legal proof, whether this man had recited tire pounds or another ten, when it vas as notorious as the sun at noon-day that the bo toughs were corrupt boroughs ! After all this minute investigation what had been gained ? Not one great town had been added—not one borough deprived of its privilege of being bought. But they were not to be told of the demands of the people. " Let the people petition," it was said; and GOD knows they had petitioned long enough. But why should they sue as bondsmen for that which they had a right to demand ? Why was it inconsistent to apply to that house an expres sion which that house made use of when addressing the Crown in sup. port of its constitutional rights? Objections had been made to the line of demarcation which disfranchised boroughs under two thousand inhabitants. Now it was the opinion of Mr. Pitt that a fixed limit should be established, and that it should be in an axiom in ?Tu. aentatton to make it depend on the number and condition of consti tuents. if the disfranchisement of corporate boroughs ware proserip. the, he called on the right hon. gentleman to explain the disfran. chisement of the forty-shilling freeholders. (Hear.) Was it not on the principle that those exercised a right to the injury of the public ? That measure was adopted on the principle, and he agreed to that prin ciple, that the 40s. freeholders exercised the privilege to the injury of the public, and that a line of demarcation was not adopted on the ground of right, but on that of expediency. Although it was true that, under the nomination system, men of great integrity and great ability might come into that house, there was one class that could not come in, they could not be representatives of the people—(Hear, hear) ; and that single defect counterbalanced all their attributes. The honourable and learned gentleman opposite had said, the object of the bill was to take 500,000 persons, mostly front humble life, into their council. The ob ject was not to .Ice them into council, but to attach them to the insti tutions of the country, by the knowledge that they were faithfully re presented, and to obtain that security for the constitution from their affection, which never could be obtained from their submission. (Hear, hear.) He thought he was not likely to advocate a Tel olutionury measure, and when he looked at those by whom this measure was sup ported, he could entertain no fears from them. Was the noble lord, by whom it was introduced, one who bore no name con.. netted with the constitution of the country? (Hear, hear., hear.) — Was the Noble Lord at the head of the Government likely to neglect the security of his order? Had he not been attacked for his attach. meat to his order? (Hear, hear.) Were not all the Ministers by whom it was proposed men who bad every 'Mil to lose and nothing to gain by the chance medley of a revolution ? (Hear, hear.) Men, whose great object must be to give stability to the institutions of their country, on which their property and character depended, and who wisely thought the best means of security was to fix those in stitutions on the affections of the people. (Hear, hear.) Their ob ject was not to change the Constitution transmitted from their an cestors, but to repair and strengthen it ; and was it for this they were to be stigmatised es provoking a revolution? (Hear, hear.) Ile was not alarmed at the prospect of the changes contemplated by the Bill, which would uphold the legitimate influence of the aristocracy, and world oniy take away the influence of corruption and intimi dation ; and In this country, distinguished above all others by re spect for rank and station, the aristocracy may well maintain their influence by an intercourse of friendship and kindness with their neighbours, which certainly the bill would nut impede, though it would for ever destroy the influence of corruption. A noble lord had said that the 168 members who would be disfranchised by the bill would seal their own damnation if they gave it their support—and the noble lord assumed that they would oppose it on that ground—but they had that night a striking instance of one of these 168, who came forward in the spirit of patriotism and said, " I have exercised the unjust power given by the existing imperfection of the constitution, of returning members to this house—but I rejoice at the improvement of this bill, and fling with delight my paltry interest into the scale of national wel fare and constitutional security."—(Hear, hear.) He trusted many others would be found of sufficient virtue, or su ffi cient prudence to imi tate so excellent an example.—(Hear, hear.) Much had been said against the constitutional and legal tendency of the measure, but not one word had been said against its honesty.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Mi nisters were pledged to Reform, and without looking to the right band or to the left, they had fully redeemed their pledge by producing a measure that would cut off corruption for ever.—(Hear, hear.) He would implore those who were to decide on this great measure, by their love of justice—by their love of the great and glorious constitution handed down to them by their ancestors, to support a measure whose object was not to violate but to Preserve.—(Hear, hear.) He ca/led on them, not by resistance to defeat the measure but to unite with Ministers in their endeavour to give stability to the institutions of the country, security to the throne and aristocracy, and to build an imperishable fame upon the basis of the affections of the people.— ( Great cheering.) Lord SEYMOUR addressed the house. He said the measure was calculated to take away influence from the aristocracy and franchise front the people. They were told they were corrupt vile boroughmon gers, and therefore they were called on to commit suicide. (Hear, hear.) They were told that if they would not have reform now, they should pay a higher price her after; he would rather pay any price than con. sent to the present bill, which was an indirect attack on all the esta. blished institutions of the country. They were threatened with the power of the Crown, and with the fury of the people ; but he would yield to nehher, he should do his duty, and to the utmost of his power endeavour to preserve the constitution. (Hear.) Mr. W. WYNN said, he had listened with deep anxiety to the ar guments so ably offered on both sides of the house on this most im portant subject, which, with the single exception of Catholic emanci pation, was unparalleled in magnitude during the thirty years he had the honour of a seat in Parliament. He felt all its importance to the country and to the cabinet, with most of the members of whom he had long lived in intimacy. He held with the right hon. gentleman oppo- I site, that nothing could he more contemptible than perseverance in acting on an erroneous opinion after the conviction that it wakerroneous (heir, hear). He had reflected on the question of Reform many years, and had aiwat s opposed large and general changes of established in stitutions; but he telt that the constitution of this country was one of innovation—of perpetual amendment ; but that amendment he also felt to be perfectly safe ought to be gradual. (Hear, hear.) He had al ways supported bills for the correction of corruption when proved. by the transfer of the franchise. lie entertained the hope that by perse vering in that course the danger of large changes might be avoided.— For many years the Hou- , e did its duty by making such transfer of the franchise when corruption was sufficiently established; but of late years such proofs were required as could not be adduced, though the fact of corruption was notorious. The case of East Retford produced more discontent in the country than he had ever before known to be produced by such a cause. Front the tinte of that decision all con. n(l:flee of improving the representation by that mode of proceeding ceased. When two cases of corruption were proved to have occurred together, and the franchise in neither case wax transferred to a large town, it was impossible that confidence must not be destroyed. On all former occasions, when it was proposed to give the fran. chise to large towns, it was asked, had they expressed any de. sire for the franchise ? That question could not now be asked. (Hear, hear.) His noble friend at the head of the law knew that previous to the fall of the late Government, though he telt great difficulty, he had made tip his mind to entertain the question of Reform. The change of Government took place, and the present Ministers came in pledged to retrenchment. peace, and reform. He telt great confidence in the views of his noble fri:nd at the head of the Government. and who was joined in the Government by persons who would not be likely to make changes beyond the necessity of the now. (Hear, hear.) On this ground he took office under the preset,' Administration, reserving to himself the fullest right to state his opinions, taking, of course, the u-ual consequences of not eetving under a Government with which he dirtied in opinion. ; (Hear, hear.) He had nu knowledge of the Bill till about a week ago ; he had since given it the greatest consideration, and of many parts or it he highly approved : striking off non-resident votes—extending the franchise to householders—taking the poll in districts • but he must except to the power proposed to be given to the Privy &lineal, of In. creasing the number of electors in boroughs, which should be done by Parliament only. He could not agree that it was robbers . , as had been said, to take away the franchise, which was not a mere right and privi. lege—it was a duty, and when the legislature was satisfied that it could be more advantageously exercised by another portion of the community, than by that which possessed it, the transfer was just. He did not see how any one who had voted for the disfranchisement of the forty. shilling freeholders of Ireland, should scruple to vote for the disfran chisemeet under the Bill. (Hear, hear.) The Bill would change one fourth of the Blembers of the House of Commons, and that was a greater extent of change than he was prepared to go. (Hear, hear.) lie had considered the subject anxiously, and d with pain that unless the Bill were to receive such a degree of modification as it was not reasonable to expect, be could nut give it his support. (Hear.) He had always considered the Mouse of Commons, however chosen, as fulfilling all its duties in times of the greatest difficulty in the history of the country. He had seen the Members for the boroughs it was proposed to disfranchise acting as the best safeguards of the Constitu• tion. (Hear, hear.) It was with pain he differed with the Govern ment, and with still greater he differed with his constituents ; but on such an occasion a man must be contemptible if be did not act on his own opinion. (Hear, hear.) He had performed his duty, and was prepared for the consequences.—(Hear, hear.) The LORD ADVOCATE began by stating that the part of the measure introduced to the house by the noble lord, to which his atten tion had been first called, was that which related to the representation of Scotland,—a part of the subject which had hardly been noticed in the course of the debate, and which, from the general silence of the mem bers for Scotland, did not incur their disapprobation. The noble Ind, who explained the measure of reform to the house, stated in a speech' unusually distinct and luminous, and, considering its brevity, surprise ingly complete, that Government proposed to bring in successively three bills, with the intention of reforming England, Scotland, and Ireland. If he did not greatly misapprehend the rules and forms of that house, the question relating to the representation of Scotland was now as much within the consideration of the house, as if it had been specifi cally brought before its notice. He was the official person to whom the charge of drawing up the bill relating to that part of the subject bad been intrusted ; but he bad no wish to enter into what might be considered by the house an uncalled for defence of that proposition. Two noble lords on the opposite side of the house had introduced the name of Scotland ; but beyond a general statement of the sufficiency of the present system of representation, or rather the undoubted prosperity of the country mkt that system, he was not aware of their having made an impeachment of the proposed alteration, or any distinct vindication of the existing system. (Hear, hear.) He took it, that some of the topics which, in the early part of the debate, occupied a great share of the attention, and not a little of the interest, of honourable members, had been already finally disposed of in the judgment of both sides of the house. He believed that the grounds on which the opposition to the great question of reform rested, were these—the undoubted pros perity of both parts of the island under that form of represen tation which the proposed measure impeached as imperfect ; the want of specification of any positive or direct evils which could be traced to alleged defects in the present system of res presentation, and the want of any specification of particular benefits which the proposed alteration would produce. To these grounds of op position he might add—omitting to speak of the subject of corporation robberies, which he considered to be already disposed of—the less rea sonable, and more vague charge, that the proposed measure was revolu. tiorary, and that it was calculated to infuse too democratic a spirit into the constitution; and to threaten, b 7 gradual progression, other alte rations, which would ultimately destroy the monarchy and the here ditary branch of the legislature. It was further urged that no reason had been presented on the part of those who proposed very extensive and unprecedented changes, except that the country not only desired them, but clamoured for, and insisted on them, with such determina tion of purpose, and such open threats, and not suppressed menaces— that the house must concede to the cry of the people what it would not to the arguments of those who proposed changes ; and that that cry among the people had been raised by those persons who had intro duced the proposed measure of reform into the house: (hear, hear.) Perhaps he might be permitted to say one word with respect to the an. gument which appeared to him to have produced the greatest effect in that house—namely, that the country had prospered eminently under the present form of representation for a long course of years, and that therefore a change for systems less known, and, it might be, less bene ficial, was not desirable. Now he would ask, when was the time, for many bundled years back, that England was not distinguished for glory, wealth, and splendour ? Was it not true that in the days of the Tudors and Stuarts England had already achieved a high place among the nations Of the world, for wealth, splendour, and cultiva tion, and even for a great degree of domestic liberty ? But was that an argument why the people of England of the pus sent day were to be content with that measure of political liberty which satisfied their ancestors then ? But the fact, to which all history bore witness, and independent of that testimony, a principle offered to the consideration of every reflecting person, that for nations to attain to a great measure of prosperity, and an infinite measure of wealth, very little political freedom, or very defective political institutions were frequently necessary and proper. It was under those defective political institu tions that nations obtained eminence in arts, manufactures, commerce, and wealth, and the fruit of that prosperity was liberty. The first step to regeneration was the moderate degree of freedom granted to :E n commercial towns, which had made meat advances in civili. wealth. (Hear.) The other day the bor.. and learned toember for Newport ( Mr. H. Twins) expressed great apprehension at such places being now proposed to be admitted i n the pale of the constitution. Th e honourable and learned member, to support his own views, had quoted from a very able commentator on the British constitution—the author of Ecclesiasticus (laughter)—the following passage :--" They are wise in the work to which they have committed their minds ;" and them it was that the day of regeneration Win e which wealth bad produced ; for liberty was the daughter, not the mother, of riches. (Cheers). Thus, and thus only, arose the Italian republics, the free towns of Germany, and the germs and seeds of our own liberty, towns and corporations being the first to be eman cipated from the oppression of feudal tyranny. As wealth accumu lated, and made men anxious to have protection from vexatious and illegal interferences with their concerns; so the increase of eultivation and the diffused intelligence which wealth bad created, required more vigilance on the part of the legislature, and demanded a more minute acquaintance with the wants of the community. The fact was deducible from principles which admitted of no question, that as nations continued crescent and progressive in wealth, they outgrew the dimensions of their political institutions; and it became necessary to alter, adapt, and enlarge those institutions, in order to accommodate them to meet the great, additional, and accumulating! difficulties which grew out of Such complicated interests. (Hear, hear.) Accordingly, what had been the progress in England? We were prosperous and splendid, while we were saddled with the Star Cliambet, with the prerogative, with purveyance, and with ship money. At that time there were tnerchantauf great opulence, men of honour and intel ligence, and immortal works of genius composed. England then bore 1 .4 proud a name among other nations as at any other period. (Hear.) But just as wealth multiplied, intelligence spread among the popu lation ; and in the same propottion, the basis on which the constitution rested became wider, in order to provide room for ithe multiplied children of freedom. (Cheers.) Now was it true or not, that within the last 23 or 30 years, there had been manifested among the people a great quantity of intellect and of political interest —a great capacity to understand and intelligence to comprehend, com pared with which all which he had spoken of, as existing in the most glorious periods of our history, was insignificant. We all knew how, in feudal times, the barons extracted charters from tyrannical so. vereigns, and how towns were taken under the protecting wings of the barons or sovereigr.s, in order to give strength to either one or other of those parties. Then came the burgesses gradually rising into wealth ; and last of all the serfs and villains were emancipated. (Hear.) Where was the man who :would say that at any of those periods concession ought to have stopped short? By what criterion would a judgment be formed as to the point beyond which it would be impossible to go without ruin? 11. knew no limits to improvement but the limits to the desires of intelligent men, who crave, and rendered seasons for their craving more or the want of those arguments by which their desires must be defended and explained. (Hear, hear.) Now he would come to the fact, for it was a mere matter of fact that was in dispute between the two sides of the House. Let him look to the great number of persons of wealth, respectability, intelligence, and loyalty, belonging to the middle ranks in Loadou and Man. chester, who were now unrepresented. (Hear, bear.) Was it true, in point of fact, that that great belly of persons were discontented and dissatisfied, and that they were alienated by their exclusion ? He would answer that question. It was well known that petitions in favour of reform had been laid on the table of the house uncountable in number—signed, not by fifty thousands, but hundreds of thousands. If it be the case that the great portion of the people io the districts he had mentioned did not share those sentiment', how was it they had sentpetitions to that house expressive of their opinions, and denied the statement of the existence of dissatisfaction. But there was only one petition which he was aware of that had been presented against reform, and that came from Bristol, and contained a sort of minockry of the language of the Iron Barons of Merton : " We do not wish the laws of England to be changed." The right honourable gentleman then Meseta to the number of petitions which had been presented in favour oftsform front different parts of Scotland ; and stated that not the slight est influence had been exercised to get them up. He called the attention of the house to the petitions from Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen, and Edinburgh, the latter of which he knew to be signed, from his own pee. sonal knowledge, by four-fifths, if not five-fifths, of all the persons of wealth and respectability in that city ; and half of the 180 persons, who signed the requisition for the meeting at which it was carried , had been converted fmm feeling distrust at reform to a sense of the propriety of its concession. (Hear.) There were two points which had been ob. jested to its the measure; one wee, the giving of the elective franchiso to those who had it not—the other wcs, the taking it away from tho' ` who had it. With respect to the first paint, would any m an say the; a body of unrepresented nelsons, equal in number to doubl e t h e pope lotion of some of the capitals of Europe, should not have a few enter. bers to represent them ? Was not this, then, a great advan tage i n thi s bill ? He would stop a moment to consider the objections to the no os e sure, founded upon the supposed advantages which attended t h e p i : . sent system. The honourable member for Callington had exp at i ato i upen the advantages attending the present system, under which the be er . ditary aristocracy and democracy were properly mingled in the H ouses ; Commons ;liire said, " if you change this system, you losethe odors tages." But how would this bill sacrifice those advantages ? It was lrn. possible to say that gentlemen who argued thus vindicated the mimic; system, except upon hypothetical principles. Let them go to counting-house and to the exchange where merchants consort; let th e n. go to Leeds and Manchester. and see how the people there d ea l t with the question. Let them consider how the press treated it out of do n ; Every person knew what strange tricks interest would play on a moo: faculties. (Hear.) Let the house see what was the result of g o bon. member's argument about peers possessing their native authority, and privileges, and prerogatives in the House of Commons. He ;tit,- Lord-Advocate) conceived, in the first place, that the House of Lord, in their individual sapacity, possessed no prerogatives or privileges at all, except that of being hereditary magistrates, which pes o . lege they could not exercise any where but in their own hou.: But even of the peers, it was only the rich proprietors that enjoyed th e privilege of influence in the House of Commons; for proprietors wit • had no borough had no such privilege. If it was not the hereditary aristocracy, what alone enjoyed this privilege ? but if it was the influ. ence of wealth generally, wealth undoubtedly ought to have int uence But were all wealthy persons proprietors of boroughs ? Were landed and the mercantile interest possessed of this influence ? A ma:, of small property might lay out his money in this way, and by the pin. chase of a borough manage to get a kind of stock in trade. But wise might be done in this way ought to be done openly. (Loud cries o hear, hear, hear.) If it were better to continue the present plan of Peers having Boroughs, every Peer, with an income of 10,0001. a year, should have a member to sit in that house to reptema him, and every member with 20.0001. should have his member too, then there would be ensured a proper appendage to rank ; instead of there being a monopoly of the privilege. He allowed that propene ought to have a large influence in the election of members of Paolo. went ; but it was said that so far from the new arrangement giving In) influence to the country at large, less would be given if the arrangement did not take place. The hon. member for Callington had referred to the influence of the Bedford family, and had asked %halm, ti... 01 411Q.0 would throw open Tavistock and other places, ankhad said that for halt-a-crown he would ensure the present members their seats. Ile (the Lord Advocate) believed that a charitable and ho-pitabk noble man would always have a certain degree of influence, which he deserved. (Hear.) But instead of such influence, we were now placed in a pe.ti. lentlal atmosphere, where what was done was done by the base cotrup don of many. (Hear.) The objectors to the measure were singularly contradictory ; some objected to it as too popular and democratic ; ye; it was also objected that it excluded the lowest classes. How were thee. objections to be reconciled ? It was said that tradesmen, and attornies, and petty householders, would he admitted tc the elective franchise, ur. der the qualification of 101. and that therefore the qualification was to low. He (the Lord Advocate) contended that, on the contrary, it war increased five-fold, the qualification being now 40s. Gentlemen again, argued as if the qualification was not to include those above 101. wherea. it was IOL and upwards, and that might be 100 or 1,000 fold. Ws, that to inundate the land with a demoaasy ? Really, if the of, freeholders and the pot-wallopers of the present system did not produce tl.at effect, it was extraordinary how it was to be produced hr raising the quali fi cation. Therefore he was at a loss to eotosive the propriety of the deduction. It was a great mistake %) :,,t.- sider that increase of property was likely to produce dissatisnie. tion or disloyalty, or an indisposition to acknowledge the authority of the law. Would it be said that a comparatively poor man was less interested in the security of his little property than the rich man who was dying of ennui, or gloating upon his useless hoards? On the contrary, a man who had acquired a certain degree of competency looked with the greatest anxiety on what affected the security of his property, and was of all others the most likely to rally round the authority by which that property would be defended. (Hear. hear.) He felt himself lifted above that want which be once endured ; and though he felt pride in contemplating his our elevation, and his exaltation in the scale of society, he looked down with affection upon those who were still struggling with &dyer. sity. He was the person whom it behoved the government to attach to itself by kindness, and by conceding his rights, and the firmest redone might be placed on his fidelity. If any gangs of persons were fornati with the design of setting the law at defiance, such persons as he let ti;e: be ready to join hard and heart in resistance to them. (Hear, hearoo No thinking man, who reflected upon the subject, would mourn that the safety of the country rested upon any other basis than a regard for the security of property ; and when society was founded upon that basis, the coronet was in no danger of being touched. nor a jewel of the diadem of being soiled. (Hear, hear.) He (the Lord Advocate) had, therefore , no distrust of this 101. qualification, not could he conceive by what process of deduction a contrary conclusion had been formed. Had the bill done the reverse, and intended to re. duce the qualification, there might be some reason in the ejection.— There were two classes of disaffected persons in the country. One ci sioed of legal, industrious persons, in comfortable circumstances, so:, though an almost unaccountable number, were excluded from what Oro considered to be their right, and therefore felt vexation and resents:ono (Hear.) When matters were discussed in that house, affectirg the interests of Manchester, was it unlikely that the inhabitants of that great town should be dissatisfied at their exclusion from the privilege of electing a representative, which was given to pot-wallopers? Nor war they unreasonably dissatisfied : (hear, hear.) The next point to be con sidered was, that men so dissatisfied, and rendered passionate and cr aspemted, were apt to entertain uncharitable feelings towards the legit. lature, which refused them their rights. The second class, from who cruse he could not say, perhaps by distress operating upon their pass sioos, perhaps excited by the scenes which had taken place in a neighbouring country, certainly incited by inferno.% publications, were ready to proceed to greater lengths. Then was a set of doctrinaires, who were against all law, for they bated law and hated authority, and would plot against them when they mold, and would be ready to riot in the license of disorder. He (the Lord Advocate) admitted that there were such men in the com a) but would any man tell him that these were the nick who peti tioned for reform? Not they ; they cared not for Parliamentary Re form; they went far beyond that. (Cheers.) They cared nothing far Zing, for Lords, or for Commons. (Hear.) Their maxim was, e sett man for himself, and Gird, or some other person, for all. (liter. bear.) There being persons discontented, reasonably discontented. the one bad a tendency to graduate into the other, and men who were only desirous to seek their own just rights, were tempted. fc the refusal of those rights, to coalesce with the others. alto dal nil they could to be identified with them. (Cheers.) From the firs: hour that he had paid attention to this subject, he had son :be necessity of conceding to men who asked nothing but their rights, art: thereby segregating them from the others, and not by a refusal, alienate them, and create that just excitement which would make them listen to those who said that this house was a mockery,—that it was cert. Erred to creatures of its own,—that whilst it took exorbitant taxes out of the pockets of the people, it would not admit the tax-payers amongst the constituents of the representation. (Hear, hear.) .f hr was asked shat was the evil which the existing system generated. and what was tire good which the present measure promised, he would sal. the evil was the growing and imminent peril of driving a great propor tion of the distressed population into excess, by the denial of their just demands, or generating among them feelings of reprobation and Cv7.• tempt. He granted that no reform would satisfy the artfully bad 4 r., 1 desperate class. A reasonable reform would not satisfy inireasonalis men ; hut from the very force of the terms, it would satisfy reasensbn; men ; and if the reasonably dissatisfied were made contented, shouL we not be better able to deal with the unreasonable. (Cheers.) — The evil was great and imminent ; and he wished to draw t. firmament between the pure waters above and the impure stripes of coo ruption below. The effect of this bill would be an infusion of 500,00 new constituents, who would create an additional phalanx for the pro tection of the authority and the loyalty of the kingdom. He was no afraid of the effects of the spirits to whom he had alluded, if no ammo vase made to put down the claims of reasonable men, and if there err 'less frequent instances of a contemptuous indifference to the poor — (Cries of "No"). —if men were treated as If they could center n• well as receive favour. which would tend to knit moo! together. Either they must have some distinction of nmlsr . ... as the minimum standard of a vote, like to that which be so, down, or they should have recourse to Mr. Horne Tooke's plan o allowing each holder of property a number of votes in proportion to tn. amount of his property. The while use and end of the represerttato: system was the protection of property, therefore the ladder of proper. bad a right to a voice in the representation. (Hear, hear.) It the - o , followed that the voter should be the holder of some permanent an . tangible amount of property, be that amount what it eta : for who that had no such species of property, bat eked out on .: fluctuating and uncertain means of mere subsistence, could nor% that e'eep interest in the well-being of that legislature tritkt . watched over the interests of bond fide property ? and he knew net silt . lower standard of this permanent property they could well take. ai y things considered , than the 10!. rate of the noble lord's bill. (Ht"r: It ::as curicus to observe how extremes met, in the obje ct ion of hon. member for Preston and of the right hon. baronet (Peel) onin's:!' to this minimum rate of franchise: the former calling out for a boosi walloping, almost pauper franchise, like that in force in hasten borough; while the right hon. baronet, in the same breath, COAL : t r . the Preston franchise, that he appealed to it as a proof and as a tonalpt ant boast, that every order of the state was in some way or oilier ter oort . ~ ed in that house. To both these, for the nonce auxiliaries, the one answer—a true and lasting re p resentative system must bee t property for Its basis ; and you must have some minimum standod.:!y ;, which you can ascertain whether the individual seeking the pense`....' , - of the elective franchise has so much permanent property as ‘ ll ' him an interest in observing the decisions of the legislature. 1 , ' "