Star. — London, England, 1808-02-12 00:00:00

PAXLIAMENTARr PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 11. Mr. JOHNSON, from the Chief Secretary's Office in Ireland, presented the ssd Report of the Commissioners of Aoeountsin Ireland; also the annual Accounts of the said -•••" wnich, upon Abe motion of Lord WALSINGHA to be printed. 4AWISILSIM. Lord SU:MOUTH stated, that he rose for thel Turpose of giving notice of a motion of some impor tance, the substance of which he would state to the House. It was, that an humble Address be presented to his M3.jesty, that he would order the Danish .ahips of war, captured at Copenhagen, to : be kept in such a state as .not to preclude or put to hazard .the possibi lity of their being restored upon the re-establishment of peace. This motion he would submit to the House on Thursday next, for which day 'he moved that the L rds be summoned... Ordered. wcre ordereA A Malt/CAN TREATY. Lord GRENVILLE observed, that he rose to move for a Copy of a certain Paper, bearing an inti mate relation to the important subject which was to he discussed on Monday: It was for a Copy of the Treaty signed , by the American Pleaipotentiaries and two Nobfe Lords appointed' by his Majesty to treat with these Ministers. He under mod there would be no objection to producing this:ifacgenent, and he was most anxious that it should be belief, their Lord ships. It had bear asserted, not only in thai Rouse, but in other places; that too Much hadbeen conceded to AmeriCa. It ,vroitld be seen, in the .Articles of tat Treaty, whether, as it has beenindustrloOsly and falsely asserted, his Majesty's late Ministers had abandmied any of those - nghts upon which the mari time superiority of this country was founded. Next to the union and conciliation of all ranks aticl.des'erip tions of men at home, in his opinion, there was nothing more essential to the true interests of the British em pire %an an intimate connection with America. This it bad always been his earnest wish to cultivate and maintain. It was upon this principle that he nego ciated the treaty of 1794 with the Minister who was t to charged with the interests of America nt this Court ; and here he would tate anepportunity, Winch he had often wished for, of paying the tribute that] was due to the unequalled talents of M. Jay. In dm' course of his political experience, he never met a man of more candour, openness, and integrity. He was a person on whose probity full reliance was to be placed. In she aegociation Which he had the g ood fortune to bring to a happy conclusion with that Mi nister, the principle upon which they proceedel was to make it satisfactory to both parties. This was the only principle upon which any treaty could be advan tageously concluded. The conduct of Mr. Jay, how. ever, was not generally approved in America. It. seas imputed to him, that he had sacrificed the in-I terms of his country to England. Never was there a_charge more unjustly preferred. The aim of that , excellent Minister, to whose merits, though he was , now retired from public life, he felt it was incumbent on him to do that justice they deserved, was to con nect and render the two countries mutually service able to each other. This was the principle upon which - all the Administrations with which he was connected had acted. When, at the breaking out of the war with France, some injury, under the sanction of orders then issued, had been offered to the American commerce, the Government, as soon as they siee convinced of their- error, did not hesitate to correct it. The obnoxious order was revoked, atonement was made, and full indemnity given to the persons ag grieved. It was in this spirit of conciliation, that the treaty lately concluded with America, and which was stated in his Majesty's speech, though not upon suf ficient grounds, in his opinion, to have been. rejected, was negotiated. And here he could not omit the opportunity ofeepressing the high sense which he en tertained of the candour and fairness of the Plenipo tentiaries of the United States, and of their readiness to conclude the commercial part of the treaty upon terms equally advantageous to both countries. The chief difficulty in thatnegociation related to the right claimed by this country of searching American vessels for British seamen. It never was, and never could be, intended to apply this right to Ameri can ships' of war but it was a right which never could be abandoned in the case of merchant vessels, without at the same time abandoning our mari time superiority, and our existence as a nation which depended on it. He trusted—he did not believe in. deed,, that the Americans would he so infatuated as to plunge into a war with this country, to compel her to the renunciation of a right upon which her maritime superiority, or in other words, her existence, depended • but if they were, he would pet hesitate to declare, thai , war, in such a casse, however great its inconvenience,' however pregnant with cal Amity to both countries, was not to be dklined by this nation. It was a prin. ciple laid down in public law, as well as in the munici pal code of all countries, that no subject could divest; himself of his allegiance at pleasure : the Sovereign, Power of the State to which he belonged bad a right; • to command his services whenever it happened to be at war. It was in the exorcise of this right that we were in the practice of searching for and seizing ow seamen on the high seas, which, strictly speekipig, were the property of no nation. This' right was claimed by all countries ; but the assertion of it was most essential to a maritime Power like us. Our e,x isteoce as a nation depended upon it. The principlel therefore, he would never relinquish, though he was I not d'isincl'ined to consent to such a modification of it ] as would 'lighten the hardships which it imposed upon the Americans ; for it wns not to be de lied, that it was productive of very peat hardship and inconveei ence to them. To establish the terms of that modifi cation, was a principal object in the negotiation of the treaty with America. Unhappily, the respective Pie-, nipotentiaries would come to no agreement on the point ; and it was therefore, with other principal sub jects, kit open for future discussion. He thought it necessary to enter into this explanation, previous to his submitting his motion to their Lordships, and preparatory to the important discussion which was fixed for Monday next. Lord HAWKKSBURY did not feel it necessary to folliaer dm Roble Lord in the wide view which he I had token of our relation: with America. The whole of that important subject would, in a short time, come under their Lordships' consideration, and he would therefore decline entering into a premature discussion of it at present. When the subject was regularly be fore the House, he would be prepared to jestify the Orders in •C( then as anxious as conduct of rice, should he should, therefore, . oppose Lord AUCKLAND wished to know, --_--- was the intention - of the Noble Baron to let him go to a Committee on Monday, as by that he would regu late his manner of opening the discussion. He also wished to be informed, whether Ministers intended to •explain the systkin founded upon the Orders in Council? Lord HAWKESBURY•observed, that he did not see the necessity for gain,g to a Committee. With respect *th ,e Orders Council, the mode of pro ceeding Vkich the Government intended to have adopted was this : as these Orders required the sanc tion of Parliatpent, it was intended that the proceed s respecting them should originate in another place. When they should appearbefore that House in the form of a bill, Ministers would then explain the principles upon which they were founded, the neces sity which had given rise to them, and the effects which they expected from them. This order having been deranged by the impatience of the Noble Lords on the other side, who could not wait for the regular course of Parliamentary proceedings, hut would force them into premature discussion, Ministers could do "nothing more than repel whatever objections might be offered to their system. • . Lord GRENVILLE conceived it to be the duty of Ministers to offereoMe explanation of the Qrdors in .Council, which were perfectly unintelligible so him and every person of common understanding with iahoin Ihe had conversed. The LORD CHANCELLOR. thought it very I I extraordinary that the Noble Baron should declare that he • could not comprehend the Orders in Como il, and at the same time pronounced that they were im politic and illegal. After some farther conversation between Lords ,Aummaso, HOLLAND, LAUDERDALE, and the Loup Cum.:m.lAß, the question on Lord Grenville's mo tion was put and agreed to. MEDIATION. Lord GREY said, that of the two subjects on which he proposed to address their Lordships, it was his in tention to bring one only under their consideration at present. The Motion which he intended to make re specting the expedition to Constantinople and Alex andria, he felt himself under the necessity •of postpo ning, on account of the want of some papers which were necessary for the consideration of these transac tions. The subject, therefore, upon which he would have to trouble their Lordships was, the - offers of me diation by Austria and Russia. Preparatory to a specific motion on that subject, be would move for various documents, tending to explain the nature of the proposals made by these Courts, and the manner is Alsich they had been received by his Majesty's Ka ttisters. Some of these papers were already before ithe House, but there were chasms in the correspond (nce and official notes which he was anxious should be supplied. The first Motion he would make was for copies of such official notes as might have pawed between his Majesty's Minister at the Court of Vienna and the Austrian Government. After the FopOsal of mediation was made by the Austrian Minister, in the month of April, no farther correspondence an the. subject appears to have taken place with the British • Government until the month of November. The cor respondence was then resumed, and a direct invitation to negociate with France was communicated in a note from the Prince de Starhemberg, and rejected, he must say, in a harsh and petulant manner. As it was probable that some communication might have taken place at Vienna on the subject, it was desirable that the copies or substance of it should be laid before the House. The next Motion he should make would be for a copy of the dispatch from the British Minister at the Court of St. Petersburgh, containing the mi nutes of the conversation held by a Noble Friend of his (Lord Hutchinson) with the Emperor of Russia, on the 23d of August last. The third Motion would be for a copy of the answer, if any, returned by Lord G. Gower to the note of Baron Budberg on the 30th of June. In that note, some charges affecting the ho nour and character of the country were preferred— charges which it was the duty of his Ma)jesty's Mini ster at the Court of Russia to repel. These charges were afterwards repeated in the note of Count Ro manzow, and more specifically set forth in the Russian declaration. They were contained under three or four heads : the refiisalao lend any military assistance to Russia, the refusal to facilitate the negociation ora loan in this country, and the vexations suffered by the commerce of Russia. Of these three, heads of accusa tion the last only was repelled in his Majesty's decla ration. The two first were passed over in that per fect silence, which implied an acquiescence in the truth of the charges. The first was by far the most serious, and upon that he must claim their Lordships indul gence for some time. The refusal. to make any mili tary diversion is favour of the Continent, was one of the chief accusations against that Administration, of which he had the honour to form a part. It was a charge which had been pressed against theft 'bf their opponents in all possible shapes. This calumny had been industriously circulated among the public, and much relied upon in another place : but he trusted before he sat down he should satisfy their Lordships that it was wholly unfounded. His Lordship here went into a detail of the military operations upon the Continent daring the time the late Administration was in power, and maintained that at no time was the course of events such, as to justify them in sending a large army to the Continent. There were only three points at which a diversion,. or co-operation, could be effected. They must have been attempted either in France, Holland, or within the Baltic. What cd y.. 5 or 80,000 men, the most Which could have spared by this country, effect against the popn 4ation of France ? It would be to send them to ter tain captivity or destruction, for within three days, three times their number might be collected against there. Was it in Holland that this diversion was to be attempted ! Independent of the difficuky of este bli4hingmagAzines, there were other obstacles to ef lecting a descent In that country. The Stag* ren dered access to the coast almost impossible, and them was no strong place under cover of which- the mint could take post. Was it within the Baltic duo this diversion was to take place ? He would Fit is to the Noble Lord.(l.ord hfulgravt), both en his military„ and nautical capacity, to declare, whe- 7 , 77 - 7 .ussians had been driven ascots descent could have beet attempt chance of success cut the coast of d was the only place where a land safely effeeted,and SwediAh Pome by a French army, too powerful! _ this country or Sweden could have , collected in that quarter. Where then was this Milt tary assistance to 'be given ? Did the Noble Lords at the other side of-the House suppose, that the landsng - 1 of twenty or thirty thousand men at Memel could have changed the fortune of the war ? His Noble Friend hehind him (Lord Hutchinson) could bear testimony that it would not. The Russians were so deficient in arrangements, that they were often in want of 'provisions. They had-neglected -to establish magazines ; and the accession of such a force, in ' stead of being an advantage, would have only added to their embarrassments. He trusted that he had fully replied to this charge ; the next respecting the refusal to facilitate a loan, would be more easily dis posed of. Russia, it was true, had proposed to snake a Iban tof:eix millions in this country—but it was found, upon consulting some of the first merchants, that it would be impossible. unless the re-payment was guaranteed by the British Government. Russia offered a species of security, to be sure ; namely, that the doties levied in that country upon the importation of British goods, should be made payable here as an export duty ; but this being a duty of a precarioin and uncertain nature, was not accepted. The lenders would accept of nothing short of the guarantee of the Government ' • and that, for many reasons , could not' be granted. The negotiation, therefore, fell to the ground. The only charge remaining was, the injury sustained by the Russian commerce. It was true, a number of Russian vessels bound to the ports of France had been detained ; but they were afterwards released, and ample compensation made to those whiS suffered by their detention. They were released in consequence of a representation from the Russian MI• nister;that though France and Russia were at war, there was ao Interruption to the commercial relations between thetwo countries. In proof of this he men tioned, that the Russian Consuls remained at all the French ports, in the full exercise of their functions. — To this representation Ministers listened, and the de tained ships were released, and an assurance given upon an understanding that they should convey so contraband of war, that they should meet with no in terruption for the future. His Lordship expressed his hopes, that be had in some measure satisfied their Lordships as to the injustice of some of the charges preferred against him and his colleagues, and the pro-, priety of their refusing to accede to the proposals, which made the subject of another ; and concluded' with reading the first of his series of motions. Lord HAWKESBURY felt it necessary for him to make some observations on the speech which the Noble Lord had just delivered. That speech was principally divided into heads—first, respecting the Russian mediation, and the conduct of the present Ministers upon the subject ; secondly, the Noble Lord had thought it necessary to go at considerable length into an apology or defence of the late Ministers from the charges or accusations which had bees made against them by persons in this country, and by the Russian declaration, which charged the Go vernment of this country with neglecting to co-ope rate with their allies on the Continent. As to the first point, namely, the Russian mediation, he must state that his Majesty's present Ministers never dis guised or concealed the desire they had to conclude a peace with France, if such a peace could be conclu ded on fair and honourable terms, and should extend to his Majesty's allies, as well as to bas coos territories. If they had thought such a peace could have been ob tained through the Russian mediation, they would have gla.dly embraced it ; but it was well known that Russia had, at the -treaty of Tilsit, entered into secret articles, which they could sot doubt were di rected against the interests of this country, or perhaps against the existence of some of the powers who were allies of his Majesty. The Russian Minister, the Ba ron de Budberg himself, did not deny that there were secret articles prejudicial to this country. He would not, however, state what those articles were, but only said, " that upon his honour the shutting of the Rus sian ports against the English trade was not one." — Under these circumstances his Majesty's Ministers thought it necessary to ask what was the basis on which it was proposed to make peace, and what were those secret articles in the treaty of Tilsit ? They thought that if either the basis was inadmissible, or that these secret articles went directly to the prejudice of his Maty, or his allies, in such case it would be idle and dagerous to carry on a mock negotiation for peace, which could not produce any beneficial ef fect, but which would prove delusive to the hopes, and prejudicial to the interests of this country. If an honourable could be made, his Majesty's Mi nisters wou ld be glad to conclude it, but if the thing was impossible, they thought it dangerous to hold out false hopes to the country. No peace could be ho. nourable to this country which would surrender its ellies.to the enemy ; and as the secret articles of the ileaty must be supposed to be directed either against Majesty or his allies, it appeared to his Majesty's Ministers, that it was absolutely necessary that they diould hs.ve . iome information on that subject before 'they could consent to • have the country lulled into the idea that they were to-expect peace. As to the second point in the speech of the : Noble Lord, the apelm that he thought it necessary to make for the late 'sisters from the charges in the Russian declaration, which appeared to him to be countenanced by his Majesty's present Ministers, he should first chstr.e, that them was no possible document or official paper, to he found in which his Majesty's Ministers had countenanced or supported those charges. If, how-1 ever, he was called upon to pronounce an opinion , it would be hypocritical in him to deny, that he thought the late Ministers acted in many points . from a very r different view of the subject from that which was en tertained by the present NEnisteri. There were- mar y points in which he agreed with what had been stated by the Noble-Lord, and some in which he differed. He agreed with hits* thinking that the late Mini sters could not have prevented the, quarrel between France and Prussia, nor that 'defeat which was SP dis astrous to the P-russian nation ; but although it was out of their power to give any effectual succour to Prussia, yet in the next campaign, which ended so un fortunately, but which began so fortunately (Here Lord Grey asked strop the House, when or where it was fortunate ?) Me meant when the power of 1 4.1;ich aftc the long ' ilei, an kon 'ta e Th o t h G 4 o isuate-P 184.the.ich Russia lia(d been brought into the field to Prussia, then the cause of the Continent. to be by no means in so desperate a state as 'i x — m,_ Ministers seemed to consider it. If i t wire 'ile lowed that the French succeeded principally riority of nunibers, then it might be sup ' th. — Yr• great . part of that superiaritYmaight Lave b een "Orby proper co-operation, especially as it wa s 4 7 ed that Sweden was ready to co-operate with it s g r ant* He agreed with the Noble Lord also is principle he laid damn that he would not larger loan to any foreign power than he .g ran tt ; w ou l d subsidy, as it might 'be expected that such loan a , D 4 fall ultimately upon this country, and that a 1 4 ,.. er A. sum would be asked in the way of loan than be demanded as a subsidy. He thought t h e • --" " , six m illions was too great to give to th e E znp „. 4 Russia, either as subsidy or loan ; but it did i sa a,7 l low, that because that sum was too large, Mi should have drily refused hint, and not Wog. it was natural for the power who asked mace to name the highest sum, but it did am o n g ; that if that was too no assistance at a ll s h oili tticatstvei. Althougl e m at' should have obj ecte d to , yet when he considered that it wa s a pawn upon which , the last stake of Europe wa it pending, he should not have objected to three mas ers; Either as a subsidy, or, if it was mere gratifyinatbi g pride of Russia, as a 1431. He thought their , l e Ministers were wrong in not giving, at lean sha lt , cuniavy assistance which the circumstances • . and which our. Allies had a right to expe ct He thought also, that, although he did not charge ; r im with any positive breach of promise, or viOlso ok i any express assurance of co-operation, yet t h,, t had by their expressions held out a hope, and induct a belief in the allies that it was their intentional to . operate. Those _hopes and expectations had be t deceived, and the Continent were now taught to loco iiponlES 'caiiitry as it nation that goaded others to a war, but which avoided partaking in the dangeo s o losses of a COntionotal.waa. He thought it Irak have been better to run 'the risk of a loss din * than to lose our 'rational honour, and be considered a country which would involve others in dangers tlst we ourselves would decline. He also thought the la Ministers had been wrong in talking of co-oreration, when they made no preparations for that purpose,. So far from having a proper number of tra nsport ready,they actually discharged,in themonthofldanh, nutty transports, which had before been Mile service of Government. After a variety of observations a the other parts of the speech of the Noble Lord (hal Grey), his Lordship concluded with expresso y a no . diness to grant many of the papers moved to ;bit there were some which he thought it would be imp s , per to produce. Lord MOIRA considered, that his Majesty'spe. sent Ministers had no right to ask Russia to comm. nicate the Secret Articles of the Treaty she hadiaa forced to sign at Tilsit. If the Emperor of anat signed secret articles, he had pledged his honour the they should be secret, and we could not resioriall expect him to violate that pledge. At the mans meat, however. and in the same breath, that wesieeisi the power of Russia to be a fair guarantee between and France, and rejected that mediation, we ahead it as between us and Denmark, and th ought that, is that case, her nue was quite sufficient. If tie late Ministers, t r os u r-ever, did not send= army tole assistance of Russia. it was because no 21211 y, whit this country could send, had the smallest chance at turning the fate of the last unfortunate camp - The greatest force that was ever spoken of as . to attempt a diversion with was 30,000 British aocp, . and 15,000 Swedes. This force, collected at Sad nand, could have had but very little effect on the as paign. It would not have prevented the defeat ride Russians ; and if the event of the battle had evenly. nod out the other sway, and that the French had her defeated, still that force would have been too an throw in the rear of such an immense army on its vs. treat. It was impossible that this force could hale acted upon the flank of the enemy, for they were to. eased by great rivers, the Oder and the Vistula. b such an expedition, our risk would not be Tautly a army, but it would be the army of Great Wain-- This certainly should not be risked, unless there vs, a probability of gaining some most important edam nage. The fact was, that the late Ministers vai convinced, upon the fullest consideration, that is troops which they could send were not likely to duce any important effect, and that there was fah one chance remaining for Europe. Tothat onetime they paid the utmost attention. That chance Wad that Austria might be brought to move, and that the Austrian army marched down to the LowerElin bind the communications of the French array, 'nig case Europe would have had a-fair chance of its deli verance. If that chance had occurred, the citzurmtw ces would have arrired in which the late Milton would have been prepared to co-operate with 2 Oa tary force. Combined with the Austrians , every. t 1 might be hoped for ; but if merely combined with dt 'Swedes, the danger that our army would raa.sar much greater than any chance they couldhave of al tering the fate of the campaign. It appeared kraal accounts, that the French army had a su periorityortr the Russians of at least sixty thousand men; and when it was considered in how different a manner the two armies were commanded, it could not be rati posed that any reinforcement we could. have seal would have out-balanced this disproportion ism l hers. He utterly denied'that the Russians had eyt . any prospect of success although their soldiErspla.ef immortal honour at Eylau. It was a m ilitary On in all countries to endeavour to kcal) the pet,'" good humour by giving very favourable aosoots. 4 i their military succes , es • but the fact wa s, that libel battle of Pultusk (which they claimed as a sista* they were defeated with_ the loss of eighty piecod cannon, and the Russian army would have been 0 1. terly annihilated, if the badness of the roada had r 6 prevented a division of French army from con* up in time. Lord HUTCHINSON hoped the House svor: I l i. allow him to state some matters schich,from the sc . ation htd held, were within his own Fergana' IrD4 ledge. The Russian army never had a n y chance j succeeding in the campaign, or even in the ha__ Eylau, where they fought so bravely. The- re!: had certainly the victory. They remained- for days in the field of battle, and immediately arP. I made themselves masters of the magazines at slaml and returned to their castionents, *ten th e Y tually covered the blockade of several strong t; Alafklii al t istss ia at otion ( ittst they the bed 'fin wit wit fired that as sc wou ld be d er ertnial '-111Wv 4Ile ihait"' 3wl3 monies Ili iceedinf l .' ‘ween ii Lord i t „wat cc ' s taler at 7r•reee x :situAtiof 'FOP64 I , hiaxwl fovea/ • Pe te ! lt 1 se rvkc..a . EtvJ v&re by tbe . that , it the Phi labirth %. dttigts? NI: 'fig other 2 a soi ha oeittirq ations, in the latlon to rise try pi ficatto 4 41 e /miss bito odiyn fot3d mot ;ouncil, and to rove that they aim tier lbw,. iipip the Rus unconstitutional, ;or impolitic., *e was the Ifill$12; any de as the Noble Baron, that the whole 1 tha ed wisb the Sisialkst the Administration with respedtm AM*... the allttic. Stialtund Lundergo the most ample discussion.; .agal ipz could have been therefore, n ot oppose the motion. ran ia was observed 1 r re. sr T /64rt wished to know, whether 'it for any force that thi of in mill WIC ma 111 inc bac by. Ste the si, P..," c