Star. — London, England, 1810-02-27 00:00:00

1 PiIRLIAMENTifRT PROCEEDING& HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY '26. lord REDESDALE having informed their Lordships, that It 'was Inconvenient for him to attend the House before five o'clock, the Lord Chancellor again deferred judgment tr. the Appeal of Kearney v. Brazicl•. Two or three Naturalization Bills, and some private Bills, were read a third time, and passed. Lord HARDWICKE laid on the table a Report from the Co❑:mittee appointed to inquire into the causes cf the Dearth of Corn in 1 sno. Five :Messages were brought ttp from the Commons, With private Bills, by Mr. Lusliingtun, Mr. Mellish, and Sir James Graham. Lord MOIRA presented Petitions from the Debtors confined in the Laois of Leicester, Maidstone, .iod Stafford. His Lordship said, that he should content hiniself with merely laying the Pei• lions on the ta'ole cf the House . ; and (Lord Redesdale having sig nified his intention to propose some measUre on this head) that he was willing, alter so many years of toil on the subject, to leave ir t tor the present, in the hands of the Lord (Redesdale), who had "Alit spoken. TIM REVERSION RILL. I.ord GROSVENOR rose. It was not his design, hii Lordship said, to trouble the House with a long sp:_ech, especially as his indisposition, during the week that had passed, unfitted him from making many ob servations now. After the objections made to the first reading of the Bill now before their Lordships, by the Noble and Learned Lord who presided in that House, and since some disposition had been shewn to strangle it in its birth, it became him, how ever unwilling, to advocate the principle of the Bill. He hoped that it would arrive safe in its destined port, notwithstanding the clouds (looking to the Woolsack) that were gathering against it in that House. It was, a measure looked for by the country, and any absolute opposition to it would indicate a stubborn resistance to all reform.—(Hear, hear.) —lf it could be proved to be a measure advantageous to the • country, which the country called for, and had a right to look up to, it would, he must say, be the grossest hypocrisy to compromise it in any way, or under any pretence. (Hear. hear:) — It was said, that the Bill infringed on the preroga tives of the Crown ; but what were all prerogatives —the prerogatives of the Commons and of their Lordships, as well as of the Crown, but for the bene fit of the whole ? The other House, which had al ready carried a resolution to the effect of this Bill to the foot of the Throne, had voted, in the year 1780, that the influence of the Crown had increased, was increasing, and ought to be diminished. What was that influence as exerted at this time ? Setting in fluence aside, he had other reasons, many other reasons against the granting of places in reversion. A man *light be qualified for the place at the time when he was nominated to fill it ; yet, such were the changes ira lu life, the same man might, on this plan (Re version of Offices) be wholly unfitted to occupy the situation at t! - time it became his duty to fill it. He should therefore move the scond reading of the Bill, arid reserve himself to reply to such arguments as should be adduced against the motion. Lord SIDMOUTH was of opinion that both sides had exaggerated the character of the Bill ; that it had git on rise to imaginary mischances. and to mischie vous expectations. Friendly to the Bill himself; he would say, notwithstanding that it might touch the r..yal prerogative, that, i the welfare of the people required it, it ought to pass. Even where the King had a proprietary interest ( though, in such a case, the House wruld do well to wait fora message till the third reading of a Bill,) yet such Bill ought at last to proceed. Consent should be had from the King to this measure. Much as he felt favourable to the and ready as he was to support it in all its future stages through the House, would that House, he must ask, proceed Co the second reading of the Bill till they obtained his lylaiesty's consent to it ? He much wished the House, in this stage of the Bill,to adjourn the debate till Thursday, and made a motion to that effect. Lord GROSVENOR and Lord SIDMOUTH explained. Lord GRENVILI,E thought the Bill should have its second reading at this time. The House might take the King's consent at any stage of the Bill (Hear, Rear,) but he hoped the House woald now suffer it to be read the second time. Lengthened explanaiions here took place between Lord wmouTit and Lord GItENVILLE. The LORD CHANCELLOR (leaving theWool sack) first adverted to what had fallen from Lord Grosvenor. He had, on a former night, stated, fairly stated, for the sake of the House, the legisla tive objections which he conceived to operate against the first Lill of the kind now before their Lordships. Decorum towards the Crown should be carefully ob served. If their Lordships proceeded with the Bill, should state, without reserve, his sentiments re specting it. He could not consent to the Bill. It went to enact what the framers of it never meant, and it left uncuaacd what it was r..!ally desii-if.d to do.— Not only did it affect the prerogative of th. Crown, 'but the Lords Spiritual of the Realm ; of whom, not cm, greatly to his surptise, had discovered this in. fring , ement on their rights (a laugh,) though every Bishop ought to oppose it. Still the Bill might be read, and his Majesty's consent afterwards obtained. Lord ARDEN pointedly opposed the Bill being scud the second time. Lord DERBY was for the second reading of the P:11 now. Lord SIDMOUTH, after some explanation'to. Lord Derby, withdrew his motion ; and • 1. he LO RD CHANCELLOR accordingly read the Order of the Day. Lord ROSS, from the long parliamentary expert-, once that he had known, avowed himself more than ever unfriendly to innovations ; particularly to such • measure s , however modified or' popularly palatable, as might affect the prerogatives of the Crown. He, indeed, feltAt deep-rooted dislike, an invincible objec tion, to any measures that innovated on the column-. tion of the State. Much was alwaya promised from • •slick ineasnres, but little, if any thing, ensued from them. Prerogative was property.. A Noble Lord (Grosvenor) had talked rather lightly - on this point. What would that Noble Lord ay, however, were he to tell hini, that it was no longer proper that he should be at liberty to grant leases in reversion in or near -London because,• for some tame Which timid :not be told, he, or Alter House, ihou4ht ;it to de cprive him. of the right of disposing of hrs preperti in -•Noble Loreto' had said Muds -abbot the - • latteashiOnfluenceof thtligrinarch itiittil•the order. • al the -ibrps4 to speak; but if the Xing poiiiitiadnny it'll — WM was olvinplitis perstalall=Viter, tig the high and palmy virtues of his reign, and not ter that unworthy influence about which .50 much had been said. Allusions were made to what the people expected; and this was one great cause why he should oppose the present infringement of the Royal prero gative. The more noise there was out of doors, the more firm, in this case ought that House to he found. Lord ARDWICKE said, that he had heard of no clamour about the Bill. Some expectation of ad- vantages was held out from it; and, under the cir cumstances of the country, he wished their Lordships to reflect whether this was a time to disappoint the public expectation ? Ldrd BORRINGDON declared himself friendly to the fill: as facilitating future regulations in the public econainy. (Hear, hear.) Still he thought the benefits to be derived from it, or the evils to be re- medied by it, had been excessively exaggerated ; that, in fact, its operation would be prospective, and not immediate. Referring it as to individuals, he thought the granting of places in reversion produc tive of numerous calamities. Either persons were frequently found incapable of filling the places to which they succeeded in reversion ; or, tired of long waiting for such places, they were seen to dispose of their prospective emoluments for any temporary con sideration, and thtia plunged themselves into the deepest state of misfortune. Reversionary anticipa tions also too often prevented men from exerting their natural abilities, and availing themselves of advan tageous circumstances. As the country looked for benefit from the 13W, and great mortification and disappointment would occur if it was not encouraged by that House, he, for one, wished it to proceed. Lord REDESDALE entered into a minute and ,extensive examination of the principles of the bill, its - rbrd GROSVENOk rnsejureplf, And twit a succinct view of the.arguniz;ntOtiil statements which Hbad been urged again4t his motion. He was very pointed in reference to Mr. Rose's pArnplilet, which, he said, after labouring to prove a vast deal, proved nothing. The antiquity which had heen'urged by a Noble and Learned Lord in favour of the system complained of, was no argument in its favritit:'lt was remarkable, he s:tid, that Ministers were peen- • liarly reserved on the present question ; but he thought it would better become them to speak:out ; a nd he would advise them, for Glace, at least to consult the temper and teelings of the people ; to shew them that some disposition existed in the Legislature to comply with the general wish, and. that the door to political reform was not to be perpetually closed. The LORD CHANCELLOR now put the ques tion upon the second reading, when the House di, vided :— , Contents 33—Proxies 34-67—Non-contents 49—Proxies 47-106.—Adjourned at half past nine. objects, hearings, and consequences. He considered it as having a tendmcy to infringe on the established and salutary prerogative of the Crown. Much as . had been said about the influence of that prerogative, largely as it had been magnified in popular report, a calm and candid investigation of the truth would shew, that the Royal influence, so far from being ex- • orbitant at this time, was much inferior to the influ ence which prevailed in former reigns, and even in that of King Charles the First. He could not disco ver any just or sufficient argument against reversio nary grams or pensions. Many Noble Lords were now in possession, and most honourably in the pos session, of such grants and pensions ; and he could not readily prevail on himself to believe, that those Noble Lords would be very ready to relinquish them, at least from any arguments that night advanced.— ,His Lordship adverted.to a pamphlet lately publish ed (Mr. Rose's) in which it was clearly proved, that the influence of the Crown, so far from being iri creased during the present reign, had been in a gra dual progreis of reduction, and that it must ne,:es sarily suffer diminution in proportion to the increas ing commercial wealth of the nation. He considered the bestowing of reversionary grants as no more than equitable remuneration for meritorious services, whether those services were performed in the army, navy, or in any other department of the state. The immediate object of the motion he did not consider as being very important ; but from the manner of its introduction, combined with other circumstances, HOUSE OF COMMONS. Jonstrrortr, from the Chief Secretary's Office in Ireland, presented an account of the Imports and Exports of Bullion to and from that country.. . The Slierlis of the City of London brought up an Address from the Lord Mayor, ,Aldermen and Commoners a4sernhied, against the Bill for granting a pension of £2OOO a year to Lord Wellington —Ordered to lie ou the Table. Mr. LONG postponed his Motion relative to the proceedings of the Treasury in the case of the Sarah Maria, b consequence of the absence ct Lord Cochrane. Alderman COOMgE withdrew his Motion, standing for to- MOrtOW 3 re:Apccting the Answer of his Maiesty'► Ministers to the 4:ity of London, on the pree•mration of the Address demant'.ir•g an Inquiry into the Causes of the Faiore of the Scheldt Erpedt tion, for the present, in consequence of Lord 'Temple having given notice of a Motion to that effect. WEST INDIA DOCK COMPANY. Mr. BAR HAM rose, in pursuance of his notice, lie felt himself peremptorily called upon to oppose it. - to call the attention of the House to the concerns of this Company, which he was induced to do from the solicitations of some respectable Gentlemen. The circumstance to which he had particularly to allude, was a departure, on the part of that Company, from the Act passed in the 396 of the King for their gui ctance. He understood the Act particularly speci fied that the proprietors of the Dock were not to re ceive more than ten per cent. for the property which they sunk in establishing it; and that all surplus of pro fits was to go to a reversionary fund, for the benefit of the public, by reducing the debt, :Lad thus lessening , the duties imposed on ships lading and unlading in the Docks, to a lesser sum than was deemed neces sary to be paid in the infancy of the Company. It was for the abuse and misapplication of this fund that he now had to complain. He understood that the subscribers were paid the full sum of ten per cent. and that the Income Tax was paid out of the whole mass of profits, by which means the subscribers received a dividend equal to eleven per cent. contrary to the words of the Act. The public were consequently deprived of the advantage which would accrue to them, were any subscriber to pay the Income Tax on his own di vidend. In order to account for these abuses, there fore, he should move that " the annual accounts pre sented to the House respecting the Direction of the West India Docks be referred to the consideration of a Select Committee • and the said Committee be in structed to report their observations and opinions thereon." Mr. HIBBERT said the Court of Directors had Lord DARNLEY' professed to have listened with f not infringed the Act of Parlidment in any degree. profound attention to the arguments and reasoning At tlie time the act was passed, there .was no Income advanced on the present question ; and he could not Tax collected ; and after that Tax had been adopted, repress his astonishment at what he heard from the a long conflict took place amongst the Directors as Noble and Learned Lord who spoke last, especially to the propriety of continuing to pay the subscribers when that Noble and Learned Lord maintained, that ten per cent. ; and after mature consideration, it was the influence of the Crown had not only been, during determined that the Property Tax was n to be levied the present reign, comparatively small ; but that on the indivilual, but paidout of the general profits of such influence must naturally diminish in proportion the Company. The Honourable Lientleman son• to the accumulating commercial wealth of the court- chided by opposing the motion. try, that is, that the influence of the Crown must de- Mr. MAR RIO rr conceived, that even if the cline in the same proportion as excisemen and tax- Property Tax was paid out of the reversionary fund, gatherers are multiplied. He conjured their Lord- and the proprietors received their ten per cent. it ships to take into their view the present state of the would not be deemed preposterous, nor could the country, and conformable to the hopes and expecta- profit they gained be called more than liberal. tions of the country, and to its true interests, as well After a few words from Mr. ROSE. and Mr. as those of the Royal Family itself, to give effect to BARING in reply, the present bill. And he ardently hoped, that if any The question was put and carried. of the Royal Family were now present, they Would HIS MAJESTY'S ANSWER TO TI H ADDRESS 017 THE HOUSE. participate in those sentiments, and adopt that policy, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ap and not allow a false veneration for antiquated error geared at the Bar with the Answer to the A ildress, to prevent the interposition of salutary reform. praying the production of such papers, memorandas, Lord ELDON left the Woolsack, and said he or narratives, as his Majesty may have received from could not give a silent vote upon the present question, the Earl of Chatham relative to the Scheldt Expedi which he conceived to be involved in circumstances ,tion.—The EARL of CHATHAM asked his Majesty's of importance more entitled to their Lordships' seri- permission to report to him his proceedings during ous consideration, than the bare question itself, or the Expedition to the Scheldt, when his Majesty was any benefit that could be expected to result from it graciously pleased to comply with his request. His in a financial point of view. But he must take this oc- . Majesty received the Earl of Chatham's Narrative on casion to observe, that as to the principle of that part the 15th of January last, and held it in his possession of the royal prerogative respecting grants in reversion, till the 10th of February, when the Earl of Chatham he conceived it to be inherent in the Crown, and for begged it might be returned to him in order that he the best and wisest purposes. And he felt the more might make some alterations. The Report, as al confident in maintaining that doctrine, as he was for- tered, was tendered to his Majesty on the 14th of titled in it by the high sanction of Lord Chief Justice February, when he directed that it should be deli- Hale, and by that of another great man, Lord Coke. vered to the Secretary of State. His Majesty did not With respect to the alledged inutility of such grants keep any copy of this Narrative in his po ssess i on , no r for efficient purposes, he )rad the experience o f sixty has he at any time before or since received any other years, which taught him that men were not more paper or memorandum. grateful for acts in possession than for those in rever- Mr. WHITBREAD then rose. In any thing sign. But the main objection his Lordship had to which he was about to say, or in any question which this bill was what he had before inforced, the infor- he should put to the Right Honourable Gentlemen mality with which it was brought into that House.— on the other side o f t h e H ouse , h e w i s h e d to guar d The Bill required &liberation r ath er than decision. It' himself against misinterpretation. His veneration for had arisen in another House, and had for its object the Crown, as well as his personal respect for his Ma nothing more, at least immediately, than suspension. lesty, would not suffer him to make any erroneous Nothing had since resulted to make that suspension imputation ; he trusted, therefore, he should be exci permanent, and yet that House was called upon, with- nerated from any such motive in the question he should out any document, proof, or even argument adduced, propose. He begged leave to .ask, therefore, which to make the suspension perpetual. He rested his of his Majesty's Privy Councillors, who was a Mem objection, net on the individual motion now before ber of that House, took his Majesty's pleasure upon their Lordships, for he by no means would object to the Address of that House ?—[Plere the most profound any wise, general, and efficient system of financial silence reigned through the House.] economy. But he would not consent to abolish this Mr. WHITBREAD.---" What am Ito under part of the regal prerogative, while the power of re- stand from this silence ? Is it that the question will vcrsionary grants in other quarters (the Admiralty not be answered ? or am .I to put it is any other. and Ecclesiastical Courts) remained untouched. His manner ? Lordship made a pointed allusion to the reversions The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER which bad been laudably bestowed upon the illustri- said, he was ready to return an answer to any ques °us ancestor of the Noble Lord (Hardwicke) who now tion put by the House—(Hear, hear,)—if,thcre was opposed the principle, and upon-other eminent per- any thing arising out of the answer of his Majesty soas who succeeded him in that high office which he which could call for an explanation. But when a (Lord Eldon) now held. His Lordship repeated, questiou was put in a sort of 'threatening manner, he that he did not at present contend for the permanency' wished that it should be adopted by the'House before of reversionary grants, but far due time to deliberate ;heanade.any reply.—(Crietof NettecAlitiir o on the Mini on so important a subject:. The motion of coarse he I .rterial side of the Nowt. y '• 7 ' 4 must oppose. I Mr. WHITBREAD s'aid - , *gat he had not put the • , question with any such feeling as that ircr-sitt..:l by the Right H onoura bl e Gentleman, t arty inclination to display a threateni ng begged, ther e fti r e t h at t h e Right kionotira);-. ( mail Would divest his mind of ao) such con cep. an 1, if he thought proper, rs.t.arn an a.ii:wer.to q uest i o -, 1 d:d not, he, - .sh(mid . feff to filing the is.kt. r „f, shape before the House, if they thougli t . lre i. cr t ceive it.— (H ear , • . The CHANCELLOR of the ECI-I;,^ I have not th•.! slightest (+l.N:tin:l t o question—l was the person who te‘eiv, : i hi, ..testy's pleasure." Mr. 'I'IERNEY made some observa , io ns , we could not distinctly hear—we under:::ald ask, whether it was usual fur the persons an Address to his Majesty to be eatrtw e d ‘ ,.c l delivery of it to the King? The SPEAKER said, that all AdAresses rr v ordered to be presented by that flotie t,. itis t.l,j were, according to usual custom, dii e.sted to such Members of the House as beluirgj tti Majesty's Privy Council. Lord TEMPLE observed, that when t!le Ad. was ordered to be carried to his Majesty, • the duchy of Lancaster, at the time the last Ad., stration were turnei out, that Addreis was jar, 'his hands, which proved that the practice without exception. The SPEAKER said he merely meant, !ouch, the ordinary practice of the Hou-e ; ;;.err ceptions, unless with the concurrence of the itse s f. • Mr. PONSONBY presumed that t 1 Answ.el his Majesty would, of course, be entered on tkieJ. nals of the House. He should be extrumly si n - r , say any thing respecting it at present, but trust:' would come under the consideration of the 110 hereafter.—(lL-ar, hear.) HiS Majesty's Answer was then ordered to Lu tered on the Journals. MILITARY EiPENDI runr. Sir THOMAS TURTON rose u, make hi , mised motion, and thought it was right that the h• should know how the stuns voted for the acme E mates for the last year had been - expended, be! more moray was voted. The Right Honourabl e Chancellor of the Exchequer hid asked why did not move for the removal of his Majesty's sters ? He would tell that Gentleyta. , kli.tt if s a motion were not soon made, lie s!...uid feel it duty to bring forward some charges against for they, among other things, were the cause tf disasters in Spain. Not grown wise troth the cal, -tons failures of their various expeditions, they t still projecting more ; and he was always atiAll,w he took up i n newspaper, to hear of more being ire constinplot,ion. Till the account he silty move for was produced, he should oppose the snot for the Speaker to leave the Chair, to go into a Cot mittee of Supply on the Army Estimates. hie nal for an account of the Returns of the Expenditure the Military. Service of the country, fic,:n• the December, 1808, to the 25th Decemi er, leo. Mr. LONG said the gnestion was, whether se( motion was practicable or not ?.. It was impoq that such.an account could be produced beti.re Csnumittee took into consideration the Army 1 mates. An account of the expenditure of the cm year could not be given before. the Mutiny 71Ct pired, as the various accounts were not yet made u; Sir T. TURTON knew that the accounts of e regiment could not be obtained, but most of t might ; and they might give them to the House far as they could be made up. He would cow to an alteration of the motion, and say " as far as • accounts could be made up." • Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought the system of counting to the House extremely defective. '1 House would be able to form a more comet judga • of what might be wanted for an onstl . mg yeAr, having the accounts of the last year bet re them. Mr. HUSKISSON said, the officers aad sold' must be paid, whether they were in Walcheren or Spain. The accounts could - not be produced in short a time as was required,- because it was the • traordioary expences, clothing, &c. that made the fi culty. Mr. PARNELL said, the substance of the am was, the forms of office were so intricate, that the counts could not be presented to the House at it than two months after the meeting of Parliament, before the supplies for another year were voted. Mr. CALCRAFT thought the assertion of Hon. Baronet on a former night, that, in March 1 there were 105,000 mea returned as effective m wher, 16,000 could not be raised for foreign sere ought to be explained. Lord PALNIERSTONE said,. the. explana was very easy. The meaning was, that there w : not '16,000 men effective for foreign service at t. period. Mr. CALCR AFT slid, then there were 59,-, non-effective men. . . Sir T. TURTON. altered his motion, and mo • for an account, so f,r as it could be obtained. Strangers Isere then ordered to withdraw, who:. division took place.—l6i the motion 35-4 3 : it 76—Majority 41. - A new Writ was ordered to be made out for election of a Member for Cambridgeshire, in room of Mr. C. Yorke, he having accepted the T lership 0.. the Exchequer.. Mr. WHARTON brought if an account ofi l expenditure on the house in Downing - stre et, occupg by the Pt esident of the Board olControul. Ord to lie on the Table. Mr. H. MARTIN gave notice tl.a t he won, move, on the first open day, fur leave to b rin g in bill relative to the sums of.money lodged in the haa of the Accountant•Gene:aL. On the motion that Lord WelEngton's Pensi Bill be read a second time, Mr. WHITBREAD said, he muse again exp his disapprobation to the Dill then about to be read, second time, though . he might have already d etaia l the House t . .)0 long in expressing his opinion s ofa eypeditiuns to Spain. He regretted much, tha t Petition presented to that House from the Cityd London, by the Sheriffs, &c. that day had not more' impression on the House than it seemed to made; fur it contained Matter of too much impack to allow .it to pass unnoticed. He objected,o thel of Thanks at the time it was mo ved for ; ir41 04 .!. ; . 1 this were not the case, a person might :ti)Frv; . " . I `ii 1