Star. — London, England, 1822-07-18 00:00:00

r i.P.P......'''''''' - '' -^ '" .. '' - '''''' . ~' L fli / 'I . • * - - he had given respecting the Turkish fritate. tut, L, besides this, the country wished to know what the real transaction was to which the motion alluded, because it prevailed that the guarantee of our MI- L nisker Ida been,. Ocular the safety of the Greek ha di,l .110 10— "C 11 4 1 ! ' • - • tanvßl ir—. o No such guarantee ever teas, or ever could be given l" The motion was then put and negatived. Hula GRAND JURIES. On the third residing of the Irish Grand Jury Pre sent:meat Bill, . The "Earl of DONOUG HMO R E objected to it, on the grounds he had alteady stated. He thought the -House was nut sufficiently informed on the subject, and therefore he thought it ought to be postponed until the nest Session of Parliament. His Lordship then stated ,the scale-of allowances made to the dif ferent officers in Ireland, which were to be paid out of the County Rate:, and which would be wholly it et, adequate to their services. The Grand Juries were altogether precluded. from grantinpanything beyond a cei tans sum. The Noble Earl concluded with moving that the Bill be lead a third time this day three months. The Earl of BLESINTON was against any delay; and therefore would vote for the passing of the Bill in the present Session. As to the salaries of Clerks of the Crown, he thought they were sufficient. The LORD -CHANCELLOR observed that the Bill went to dispose of the salaries of patent offices, which were vested rights, and to take away such emoluments without notice, and that this was con trary to all the principles on which Parliament had ever before acted. He had, on a former day 4 pre sented Petitions against the Bill ; and, if the contents of the Petitions were true, the Bill would cause an act of great hardship and injustice to take place. The Earl of LIMERICK said, that one of the greatest grievances under which Ireland laboured, was the gross and oppressive exactions of Grand Juries, and the system of disgraceful jobbing which always took place in consequence of the power they possessed: As to Clerks of the Crown, many of them had salaries amounting to thousands each year, for which they were in the habit of Making shameful ex tortions from bills of indictment ; therefore bethought this Bill ought to be adopted. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he fully agreed to the principle of this Bill, because it was absolutely necessary to put a step to the excessive. power of Grand Juries in Ireland ; yet as the Bill was not to begin to talc effect until the lit of March nest, he did not see what necessity there was for passing it now ; and if it was put off for three months, he now pledged himself to bring forward this measure early in ,the next Session of Parliament—(icar). The Marquis of LA NSDOWN agreed that this Bill ought not to affect the patent rights of officers; but ii. was absolutely necessary to put a stop to the abuies of Grand Juries, who granted to the officers What ever Slims they chose. He should be sorry if a doubt existed as to any indisposition on the part of the House, to check such abuses; after what had been stated, however, he should not object to putting off the Bill for three months. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, if this Bill passed in its present form, the officers would be left without salaries. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, if the Bill was now put off, he should have no objection to support a Resolution pledging the House to bring it forward next Session—(Hear, heat). Lord lZ EDESDALE opposed the Bill on the same ground with the Lord Chancellor. The FAH of LIMERICK said, he did not see any necessity whatever for the Resolution alluded to by the Noble Earl. Lord HOLLAND said, his Noble Friend (Lord Lansdown) would move such a Resolution on Friday. aware of k the Hasse "by the Mr. E `7llP l l,_ Aho - other from the Chapel ?Jr. F. BUXTON p. _ against the Sale of Beer Uprising the proper occasion arrive& that t. - oPlioodwi and the cruelest nibasure that ever was brought into Parlament. klelitlerman WOOD presented several Petitions to the Mine offset from individuals who were his Constituents. Sir P.. HARVEY presented seven Petitions to the woe meet, from various towna. . Mr. C. CA LVE RT. presented a Petition from the inhablennall of Holloway and Kentish Town, against the Highgate Child .11110.—Referred to the Committee. - • Mr. VA NSITTART presented a Petition against the Bent NI from Hereford. ifir. BUTTERWORTH presented amilar Petitions frail . Gosport, Portsmouth, and Pongee. • Ildr. lIUME presented 'a Petition from Henri! Constantine Jennings, complaining of ate exclusive privilegesojeyed by. the Universities of printing Bibles, and praying that the subject may receive the esely attention of Parliament—To he printed. Mr. T.. WILSON presented a Petition from the Licensed 'Victuallers of the City of London against the Beer Bill. • Also a Petition front the Ship-owners of the Port of Louden, complaining of some provisions in the Stamp Aet.—Ordered to be printed. Mr. G. BENNET presented live Petitions from various in dividnab against the Beer Bill. • Mr. HOBHOUSE presented Petitions of thesanie character. Also a Petition from au individual complaining of delays is the Insolvent Debtors' Court, and that there was no appeal from its decisinaa.—Ordered to he upon the table. Dr. LUSHINOTON presented a Petition from an individual in the County of Kent against the Beer Bill. Mr. MARERLY presented a like Petition from Abingdon. Mr. BROUGHAM presented a Petition from Thomas Dou glas, complaining of ill-treatment by the Victualling Deparuirt. --Ordered to lie upon the table. A Message from the Peers announced their Lordships' assent to the small News Bill, and several ethers. PETITIONS ON THE SEER BILL. Mr. F. PALMER presented a Petition from the Inhabitants of Reading, in favour of the Beer Bill. The Petitioner pressed a hope that his Hon. and Learned Friend would perse vere with his measure, even though he should lose it in the pre. therefore not responsible in that respect. The letter carried upon the face of it the - proof that it was not of recent date, and warranted the copelusion that it *as addressed to a.person whoodthough he had since become a Judge, was then in practice as a Barrister. Sir GEORGE HILL wished to tike this opportu nity of asking the Hon. and Learned Gentleman if he had not received a communication fromu distin guished Roman C,atholic Gentleman, relating to the public notice of this letter?. Mr. BROUGHAM was at a loss to know by what right the Hon. Baronet questioned him upon. airy commußication he.rnight have held with any pentle man—(Hear, hear)—whether distingiiished or Ob-,, *sure, Roman Catholic or PrOteetant. But if it would gratify the Hon.l3aror.et's curiosity—lie would not say his illaudable curiosity-r=he would tell him that he had held no communication with anyone, direct or indifect, upon the subject of this letter. He stated at the tinie When he first mentioned it, that he had no other knowledge of the matter than, his havint, ,seen the letter published in a public paper. He tbe*s ,thought it indispensable that it should come under the notice of the House; but as long as it had been confined to private circles he should not have de.- - such a course necessary. Mr. R. MARTIN wished to say a few words twits the Petition, which he considered to be one of great importance. He was most happy to hear both sides of the House join in reprobating these annual out rages, and he was particularly grateful to the Right. Hon. Gentleman for the manner in which he had .spoken of thew. With regard to what had been said by the Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Hill) as to the provoca tion arising on both sides, he begged to give that a moat unqualified contradiction, without meaning the slightest disrespect—(A laugh). He would, in a very few words, convince the House that what he said upon this subject must be the truth—(A laugh). It was chiefly in the North of Ireland that these Orange Processions were carried on, and there the mass of the inhabitants were Protestants. The only object, therefore, was to annoy and outrage the few Catholics who lived among them. In the County which he had the honour to represent, the proportion of the Catholic population to that of the Protestants was as 50 or 60 to one. Yet be had never heard a toast given that was offensive to the Protestants, nor seen anything done to hurt their feelings—(Hear.) The Petition was ordered to be printed. BREACH OF PRIVILEGE. The Order of the Day for the attendance of Mr. Hope and Mr. Menzies being read, Mr. W. COURTENAY moved id That Mr. Hope be now called in." The motion being agreed to, Mr. Hoek made his appearance atihe bar of the House. The SPEAKER—" Mr. Hope, I have to inform you, that on the 9th of July a complaint_was made to this Horne, that a letter had been addressed to an Hon. Member, taking notice of a speech delivered by him in this House, when certain passages of the letter were read, and declared to be a breach of the privileges of Parliament. Have the goodness to look at that letter, and state whether it was written by you." Mr. HOPg replied in the affirmative. The SPEAK ER—" The House came to a Resolu. tion that the said printed letter was a Breach of its Privileges, and ordered you to attend here this days If you have anything to say in explanation of the contents of that letter, now is the time at which you are allowed to do so." lar. Hots then addressed the House. He com flanked by begging to thank the House foe the op portunity which it had afforded him of explaining the causes which luid placed him in his present situa tion. In doing so it was not his wish or purpose to state anything which Would be . at 'variance with the Resolution to which the House had come, as he was fully sensible that the letter which he had found it necessary to write was a breach of its established pri vileges. But he hoped that many circumstances would induce the House to consider it rather as a technical infringement of its forms than as a serious and meditated attack upon its privileges and au thority. Every view which he entertained of the character of the House would forbid his taking such a step ; regarding as he did such privileges, to be no less the privileges of the People than of the House. Every one, he thought, must own that he M ad been placed in a cruel situation; and 'tower= painful to his feelings, the only course which he thought he could take was that direct attempt to vindicate his honour and his character. He hoped the House would have regard to the circumstances under which that course was adopted, and to the state of his feel ings at the time he committed the act which placed him in the situation of an offender against its privi leges. He wished the House to be aware that he did not publish the letter with an intention to call its au thority in question, but solely with a view to vindicate his professional character from an unfounded and un just attack. The charges were of a most serious cha racter. 'They were those of a malicious prosecution, and a violation of professional duties. It was said that he instituted a prosecution against an individual without intending to pursue it, and that, too, for the purpose of prejudging the case of one who was about to stand his trial for life or death. The accusation imputed to him, that in the support of certain views, be had engaged in carrying them on with a degree of furious zeal, with inveterate malignity, k and even with personal hatred. That to indulge those feelings as an advocate, he hid supported acts which must lead to murder and bloodshed. It imputed to him, in short, the absence of all those qualities, without which no Counsel could claim or expect the public confidence, and without which no Gentleman could be respected or tolerated in society. Need he say that such imputations were injurious to his feelings; need he say that such imputations were injurious to his private reputation ; need he say that such impu tations were injurious to his 'professional character, and calculated to withdraw from him as a young man that prospect of honour and distinction to which he naturally looked with anxiety. And what cause existed for such imputations? .He never was Counsel, in the cause to which they alluded. He most pro. Dm of the parties Member did who made• die ignorant of the hit signature the House. practice without these c;"" with perfect confii___ "him 'to see tech character. and destroy; man—he would see such imputations without feeling , urged to take the most s self from the dishonour kit any wanton desire the House, but in t. ratter. Under these whole or these inn. mistatethent of facts niiscorUeption), 'he v ,kaed that he should tradicting them through whiCh they 'Besides the public cited against him, asialCh 'fie 'Misled, 'knowledge of the $ and, unqueitionably t. Of all, would be that of a' friend who mourned, or a polkieil foe who tr i, .umphed in his degradation. Unifier all the cilLunt. stances of the case, he trusted the House would sir a reasonable cause for the irritation under which the breach of their privileges was committed. the warmth of feeling which he had displayed, he thought he should not be required to say much in its defence when he was addressing Enlist Gentlemen. It would not be a matter of surprise that a British Cou:I. senor and a British Gentleman should feel warmth when repelling an unjust attack upon his character and honour. He desired to express his sincere regret that ,the means' be had found necessary to take for that purpose had placed him in the situation of having violated the privileges of the House of Commons ; and not deprecating from personal feelings any con sequences which might follow, Ira relied with pet feet confidence upon that House for receiviv substantial justice at its hands. The speech was followed by loud and continued cheering.—Mr. Hope was ordered to withdraw. Sir K. WILSON rose to order, amidst' loud calls upon Mr. Courtenay. The SPEAKER decided that the /lons Member was entitled to speak to a point of order. t Sir R.' WILSON said, that he had never been more shocked than at hearing the cheers in which Honour able Members opposite had thought riles- to in. dulge, in approbation of what had been said at the bar. They were assembled there as judges, siad by such expressions of their feelings, Gentlemen ten dered themselves parties in the case at issue. It was impossible to expect that impartial justice should be done when such conduct was observed. Mr. W. COURTENAY moved, 4 ' That Mr. Hope, having acknowledged himself to he the author of the said letter, is guilty of a breach of the privileges of this House" Sir FRANCIS BURDETT continued to ententaia the opinion which he had ays expressed as to the great 'danger which existed in this assumption. of power by the House of Commons. He had never :.et heard of anything to do away with the strong • stitutional objections which he saw oppose i d to 1( 1 6 acts. In the present case he could not see !I'M, it was possible to exercise the 'power which the House 'claimed, without allowing that every man in the Country was to be subjected to whatever ant.ttrr might choose to say tit` him in that flume witholt replying to it, or even to the mi s takes of those who gave their debates to the Pub*. or. still more the most malignant represeriatiOns Witieh Person's might think proper to make. He begged` to ask wheti:er such a power would he allowed to the Crow n as ;lilt claimed by Parliament, incases which it might che . e to declare breiches of privilege? But he could nct see how the case now before them was a breach of any part of the privileges which they claimed. The party stated that a report of a speech had appeared which traduced and injured his character, and con sequently proceeded to declare such a report to be false. If this was a breach of privilege they woe suffering them to be committed eve' y day, and re man was safe who referred to anything that was said or done in Parliament—( Hear, /.ear).—lf any one were to apply directly to a Member to call hint tJ account for anything which be might have done in the discharge of his duty, and he brought the matter before the House, then he confessed he should see a justifiable ground for interference. It was muss mohstrous that they should act as Judge and Jury in their own cause—that they should examine the accused, compel him to answer, and then deal out law and punishment. This was the privilege of which Cicero complained— Vetant loges sacratz vetant duodecim tabula legm ptivaiis bominihus irrogari ;id enim est privilegisem. Nemo unqusra talk nibil est crudelius, nihil pernicimius, nihU quod %Moils hisc (deltas ferre possit. Prostriptionis miserrimum nonarqi illud, e: emnis acerbitas Syllaai temporis quid hahrt quod,maiunt 1: insigne ad memoriam crudelitatis ? Opinor, roman in cive, Romano, nominating, sine judicio cunstitutam. The original intention of guarding Parliament with privileges, was to provide them a shield against the power of the Crown in the free discharge of their duty; but not to arm them with a sword against their feilosw subjects. The power which they claimed w a, itself an anomaly ; for they proceeded to inflict im prisonment, yet they did not presume to rests: t i 4) the minor punishment of fine. The Gentleman who had been before the House said that the statements made against him were untrue. In that case he had a tight to complain of his friends,who'had preventeJ inquiry where his innocence and the &Isehood ot the charges might have been proved. His lion. 3 111 Learned Friend, as he thought, had Urania to' w the affair in the most unexceptionable, as well AN in the most able manner. It appealed to him, that A breach of privilege in such matters as these, w ould consist of an intention of committing, or of ith,:ing others to commit, violence. He did not really (Inas that there had been a breach of the privileges, even such as the House assumed its privileges to be. Tilt power in question was such as the Law did n.,t .olow to the King; and it was,, therefore, most unbecoming in that-House to apsnme such power to itself—(Hearl- This consideration was more obvious, when it was - ..„ - , • _ -4 7 1 77mr ,710,7 -- -- - E- —. • . .. s . , • . . . . .. I • . _,' , • i 1 • , - . • . g t a li • • awaibilatal lift:1011/1AURN said, that in. thitsOreer hi hably knew TIM i k ' all . . dillb `that he had seen nothling . ia tlastleiter, either in the vats utterly lei . BYNO ll ==dialloir a • ha a Petition froli& libabitaats and a - nature of its contents sw i m the moaner of its pubis which had hit s f rom t h e p ac i e t t Cl er k g S t . Ilanoto, the Hiabpte cation, salibrding grounsinpon which he should lilies d e b at e o f the H ri NlL—Referred to a Coalmines. • been justified in callinigt upon the Gentleman whom ing to the praot .. F. BUXTON presented • Petkloa from a Publican Advocate, witi a the Sale a Beer Lousing pia. He I mam dew , when name it bore for any eftplastation. He was not. now _ ._ —.. .. 2 .t.--c--- ........naikle, in that respect. The letter miner aceasion arrivat that this was the m o l t opprees k ve connected in any way with the Government, and was Under these cir with perfect cc • - • of the rem Mum& in it tha n r did who made die cis fit aunt of the contents of rise p apers :nature to them, asalladed to in the lose. He signed the papers 'cas t & :e of the Scotch Coarts for a brother tat knowing say,. their-so i meaty. urnstances irotddlitk the House "dente, whether it was possible fo r nil:4Bl6oM prelltaltaLd :straying his cheracter as a Geau e . con‘dentiy:sisk, whether be oak ions circulated by the Public Press some warmth, and. without being most decisivemeens oft ',hair% him. honour ? He didnot recur to th em lesire of violating the privileges Of n the necessary defence of his ch s ... hese circumstances, feeling that the niputatiOns were made upon a tot a l facts (proceeding, no 'doubt, f rom 'he would ask bow it could be ex- should be able to refrain *from con.. by means of the same channel hey were disseminated to the Public? is feeling which must have been ea. n , i n th e narrow circle of socicy in ',every one would meet him with a be charges cast upon his character ; tbly to him, the most painful iceling that of seeing io every man he m et , ourned, or a political foe who tr i, • • legradation. Under all the cntont- se, he trusted the House would sue a for the irritatios under which the rivileges was committed. As t., the • g which he had divplayed,hethongi it •;1 ANNIVERSARY OF THE CORONATION. The Earl of LIVERPOOL observed, that some doubts existed as to whether the House ought to sit on Friday next, on account of its being the Anniver sary of his Majesty's Coronation ; and as the second reading of the Irish Insurrection Bill stood for that day, he wished to have the opinion of their Lordships uliether it was the custom to adjourn over that day? The LORD CHANCELLOR said, be could not at present give the House any information on this point, because the anniversary of his late Majesty's Coronation never occurred in any Session of Parlia ment. He should, however, examine the Journals, and inform the House of the result to-morrow. The Earl of LIVERPOOL desired, then, that it might be understood the Irish Insurrection Bill was to come on next Friday, unless it should be found that the House was not to sit that day. • CRUELTY TO ANIMALS' PREVENTIOE RILL. The House having resolved itself into a Commit tee on this Bill, Lord ERSKINE made some brief remarks in sup. port of it. • • The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he was sure that the Justices in the different Counties would be very much at a loss to know what interpretation ought to be put on the words" wantonly and cruelly," as applied to the treatment of horses; for it was cer tain that some persons might think those trotting matches one might read of in the Newspapers every day, or the great exertions made in hunting, were not wanton and cruel. He had no objection to the Bill being reported, and even going to a third reading. The Bill then passed through the Committee.— At Half-past Eight o'Clock the House adjourned. HOUSE OF cOMploNs. Mr. ROBlNsoi44resented.a Petition from the Virtu;llen and Publicans al Ripon, is the County of York, against the Beer Licrosin. BAL. • • • • • Mr. Mdrrmsar , BßlOVlP .PiesesPio& slaaliste-Petitions from otircral iitterla limping public-benne in diferrot parts of the city of I Mr. ROBAIiTS presented thisilar Petition from the Pub licans of -rations towns: (poi G. SIPIRIthiICT presented a Petition from Gloucester shire to Ore no*. ellky4, Mi. vroDzitoysg.prempted similar 'Petition from lin cainahire; er gams. Lord IiINKANG presented a like Petition from Gillingham. . Mg, U COOPER presented a similar Petition from the Qty of Ginusroffr. • • - !dr. 04/413 IrAMß_presented Petitions of the some as. cure from c Eicrussd Victuallers In Henfirdslaire. ''- CA .RAFT presented a similar Petition from Graves ' measure should not .be . carried through vote for itaioing into a Committee, 4 0 04 be dAseugged conurrod in .the ognian of Ida Hon.. that ff the consusurrs of beer were Mr. CA LettairT prwser ea 4- Orli& Om meal latilis 47 .;" r il ßhea b". W i6"ll"l lll Ple cot d Farad kis obsignal. sent Session. Mr. BROUGHAM—" They need not be alarmed."—(L Mr. MONCK presented Petitions from several bodies of Journeymen Mechanics to the same effect. Upon the reading of the Petitions, the Oerk read as follows: This is a Petition from the Journeymen Shoemakers, from the Journeymen Bricklayers, from the Weavers, from the Jour- . neymen Tailors, and from a Hugh Parsons." tion of the Petitioner was generally understoo d in the The leet H d ar i se P- to be, " and from a few Parsons i" The mistake occasioned loud 'shouts of laughter. Mr. SC Alt LETT presented a Petition from the Publicans and Licensed Victuallers of Peterborough against the Beer Bill. The Pedtion, with all the foregoing ones upon this subject, was ordered to be printed. DRANO! PROCESSIONS. • Mr. BROUGHAM presented a Petition from John I.awless, Proprietor and Editor of a Newspaper called the Irishman published at Belfast, complaining of the Orange Processions, and of the Executive Go vernment not having taken means to prevent them. Mr. S. RICE could not help expressing his regret that, notwithstanding the letter of has Majesty,. and the happy results which were anticipated from at, these public outrages should have been permitted. Sir JAM ES MACKINTOSH thought it disgrace ful that these scenes should have been renewed in Dublin, and was surprised that the means bad not been resorted to for their prevention, which, under the Lord Lieutenancy of the Duke of Bedford, had been found efficient to prevent them. These occur rences were an annual insult to the people of Ireland, and an annual libel upon the memory of King Wil liam. This was the only instance in the history of nations where a minority of conquerors continued to insult the people of a country through a series of ages down to the present period. To make the statue of King William their exultation, was the greatest insult to his fame; for he was one of the first cham pions of toleration and liberty in religion. Accidental circumstances alone prevented his acting in that character in Ireland ; but they disgraced the name ef Orange who assumed it for such purpoies as thou complained of by the petitioner. Mr. GOULBURN said he lamented exceedingly that any excesses of the nature complained of should be committed, and more particularly frorn the feel ings he held upon the question with which they were connected. He had reason to believe that the ac counts which brought the information relative to these circumstances were greatly exaggerated. Sir GEORGE HILL said that no one could de precate more than he did the transactions which were represented to have taken place in Dublin. Without wishing to provoke discussion, he must, however, state, that the provocation in these disturbances came largely from the other party. He was certain, that ia most cases the interference of the Gentry in the neighbourhood of the spot, would prevent the recur rence of such scenes. Mr. C. HUTCHINSON expressed his wish that the Attorney-General for Ireland had been present, in order that he might have asked him officially whether the law, as it at present stood, was not strong enough to prevent these disgraceful outrages. If not, they ought to give the Lord Lieutenant such power as would enable him to prevent them, before the House separated. He must deprecate the con duct of the Government in not interfering upon the late occasion. He understood that the police were actively engaged in the rioting, and taking part against the insulted party. If it should appear that a Police Magistrate had been engaged in the-riot, he trusted that the Lord Lieutenant would visit such conduct in the manner it deserved. Mr. S. RICE hoped that as both sides of the House bad concurred in reprobating these outrages, he trusted that the public knowledge of that fact would hnve such a moral influence upon the minds of the' country, as would prevent their being repeated on future occasions. Mr. BROUGHAM agreed that such an expression of opinion from . all sides of the House, and from all shades of party upon that great question which so much divided men's minds, must have the effect of discountenancing these outrages. ' He wished to ask a question of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite re lative to the letter to which he had called the atten tion of the House epon a former occasion, purport ing to be written by Mr. Saurin. He had since heard' that the date of the writing of the letter was six years back; or, according to other accounts, that it was written as long ago as the year 1843. As this was a very important consideration, be wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentlemin whether he had any know.• ledge of the period at which the letter was written ? If it bore so remote a date, that would be a sufficient• . reason for the House passing it over without notice.