Star. — London, England, 1822-03-27 00:00:00

1);IIIY emu:lnk: ll . I claim your additional cone dcnce for them—they are my particular merit; and see the great reduction which they will both at pre-; sent and ultimately effect." Such was the credit which the Noble Earl seemed disposed to take for those reductions which he had year after year op posed ; against the necessity of which he had always strenuously contended, and which he had repeatedly declared he looked upon as so injurious to the welfare of this country and the dignity of his Sovereign, that, if they were impolitically determined upon, he should have no other course left but to resign his place in his Majesty's Councils. So much for the credit which the Noble Earl was disposed to assume for himself with respect to these reductions ! Ile now cettainli came forward with a certain degree of eandomt . to admit, that though good faith r e q uired that cer4 tain parts of the Civil List should remain untouched by Parliament so long as they were kept within their stipulated amount ; yet -ithat under any, or ; kumstances the third class must always be consi dered as fairly before Parliament for revision.— (Lord Holland) confessed that he was one oftliose who always thought that there were many other parts of the Civil List, besides the third class; in which' ltn portant reductions could and ought to be made. lie avowed himself to be one of those who thought that if another branch of the Civil List could be re-opened without any imputation of a breach of good faith, equally important reductions could be made from departments which were miscalled appendages toabe splendour and dignity of the Crown, and which,. if they were now before Parliament for maiden; he would snatch from their present appropyiatiOp..yiith out the slightest remorse. The third class was, how ever, confessedly open for revision at any time; and then came the question, what had been tbe - nligilini character of that branch of the public expendiblre ? The Noble• Earl had gone over the subject histori cally, and adverted to the different Reports which had been made upon the Civil List by Committees of both Houses of Parliament. Now, upon the subject of the third class, all who thought with the Noble Earl, that it was impossible it could be reduced with oat i n jury to the country, must necessarily vote against the present motion; but, if after fUll reference to the sources of information contained in the Parlia rnen:.u.y Papers, and to the actual scale of expense (which, Sy the way, could not be clearly ascertained !Ion) these Papers) which these c,tablishments cost, there were any who thought that the expenditure ex ceeded the necessity urged in its justitieaLion, they mere particularly bound to vote for his Noble Friend's '_ion, on the reason of the thing alone, and even in dei•enlmt of the strong necessity superinduced by retrenchment and economy which the country so loudly c.Wed for in its present state. The Noble Earl had laid bleat stress upon the Report of the Commit tee of the year 1816: be had also called their attention particulaily to the Report of 1791, which he had re peatedly assured them was founded on the sc ale 0117'21. Here he must doubt the Noble Earl's historical ac curacy ; for, if he did not mistake, a Committee had sat upon the subject in the year 1786.—[Earl GREY said, and another in 1790."3—Ye5, he believed that was the fact; and the object of those Committees, if he was not much mistaken,was, if possible, to reduce, and not (as had been done) to augment the previous scale of diplomatic expenditure. I%lr. Pitt was the promoter of these Committees; for, before it was the fate of this country to have been plunged by him into a wicked, abominable, lavish, and unnecessary war, he, too, had been engaged in pre ssing, for re ductions to establish principles of economy and 4C trenchment in all the departments of the State. Mr. Plitt, at that time, did not go so far as to - nr.intain what the Noble Earl now did—that length of years necessatily implied an augmentation of the scale of expenditure ; but rather, in the Committee of 1786, endeavoured to retrace principles of comparative economy, and diminish the existing scale of exPendi tnre below the former rate at which .it was affixed. Mr. Pitt at that time brought the third class under the consideration of the Committee. He did so again in the year IBo4,when he had a second time plunged his country deeply into a system of general extrava gance, and was even then engaged in reducing this branch of the Civil List, as compared with what it 'vas before his wicked and fatal war of 1793. In 1316 the same object was kept in view, though not in the same degree, and the ascertained expenditure at the different petiods could be quoted from the Parliamentary Papers. His Noble Friend had, early in the evening, asked the Noble Earl opposite, if any saving bad taken place in the third class of these Es timates ? and the Noble Earl had replied, he could not say what saving, if any, had taken place in that particular branch ; but that, if any were made, it must have been duly carried on to the Consolidated Fund. That was answering in plain terms, " if any saving has been effected, 1 have not disobeyed the laws of the land, but carried it forward to the proper ac count." Now he (Lord Holland) disavowed any in clination to press hard upon the Noble Earl ; he had no disposition to draw any unfair or unwarranted inference from his words; but he hoped he would not impute to him a want of candour if, from that answer, be had inferreithat no saving whatever had been made. lie hoped that would not be a harsh conclusion to draw from the Noble Earl's silence upon a matter of detail which he must have known, and which he could not fail to have stated in his enumeration of savings, if it were possible to have pressed in a point of saving as applicable to that class. Their Lordships, then, had only to form their opinion upon the.comparative saving as it stood in the documents before them, Let them, for instance, compare the Estimates of 1786 %vith tho eof 1801. Upon glancing at these Papers, he must contend, without alluding to individual cases, that the gross amount considerably exceeded that Which ought to be incurred for this branch of the public expenditure. The Noble Earl, he must re mark, had left one great collateral branch of the di plomatic expenditure comparatively unnoticed—the pensions and half-pay for foreign nlissions. He no doubt felt that particular point to bo a weak part of his case, and that the less it was noticed the better. But to recur to the Estimates. Mr. I'itt, in the year 1786, then a time of peace, estimated the whole di plomatic expenditure, including Consuls and Mis sions of all classes—that, too, at a time when there mere many inferior Governments abroad to send them to, sonic of which had since disappeared; other smaller States there were, but more independent then tt.an they had been since suffered to remain, though of them were called Imperial Gorntanients— • .. Mr. Pitt ' s Estjmate titeti was £70 , &5 2—a tam which', the bttnefit of any change in the geogra phicsal l situation he deemed sufficient for ilieWhole:tlipiomatic ex - Pell" ..*. :af.119 -1- at — tettitttx which had occUired since, tat period. dlture. In 1804, after Mr; Pitt had. intolved the ; . Butovhateirerinigh Tti t be thette or the ge4raphical . country in all the cd ns e qu e nces . of the revorulioriary position, ; the hist or i c al ar g um e n t would Carry the war, he. had estimated foe the !peace expenditure of Noble Earl but a small way in suitilihing the tieces diplomacy, a sum Of rl,ll,oo6—that was his final I sity of •theesent large expenditure; fo r when. did calculation. They then Came to the Noble Earl's Switzerlan d stand in - more a elevated situation, or point—the year 1816, WhiCh he was so ready to Com- one more imposing in the eyes of England, than in pare with all preceding .of Years ; and what was that the early past ! the last century, when the larger estimate? Why, after discharging &oils it' all pep- States in the world were conflicting between Protest sions, it amounted to a direct and actual ex p en diture ant and Catholic interests ; and not, as now, runnin of £174,000, f or a serv i ce w hich M r. Pi tt, in 17b6, a r a c e o f legitimacy, some of them struggling whic'E deemed adequately paid with £70,852; and in 1804, shall be the_ more servi l e adulators of power against had estimated f or a peace esta bli s h ment at £112 , 000. the friends of freedom and independence. At the And yet 1816 was the year when, according to the period to which'he alluded, Switzerland wis lOoked Noble Earl, the principles of economy were directly upon with peculiar interest by England--thither she and properly applied. " Oh, but," say the Minis- sent her children for a Protestant education, and to ters, ~ if expenses increase, salaries must augment Savoy, that neighbouring. State, whose interests in proportion ; and where you sent a Minister of had been so sacrificed by the present Administration. the first class, it would be unbecoming for us to When all these important events were passing in send one of inferior quality."—(Hear, hear, hear).— Europe, the British Envoy in Sivitzerland maintained This was the way in which some Gentlemen and his country's influence upon a salary of £250 a-year. Noble Lords were always found to talk in smooth lii 1793, when Switzerland withstood, as a neutral terms of their immediate predecessors, when places country, the political shocks which convulsed her were to be considered ; and in this manner was a per- great neighbours, Mr. Pitt, thinking justly that Swit petual augmentation of expense to be affixed upon zerland was a position which required greater atten the country. This was the way in which a succession tion, appointed an Envoy with a salary of £l,OOO a of appointments was carried on, and the list of pen- year, and at that sum it remained until the peace; sions swollen by the wars and services in which the and then, when all the necessity for extreme attention individuals had been engaged. The administration on the part of the mission began to decline, then, and of Mr. Pitt, in 1786, had prophesied (for Ministers' not till then, was the salary augmented to something ,had a knack of prophesying) that the pensions given like its present amount. Passing on to Germany in war would be so far available in time of peace as (the geography of which remained, he supposed, toto in reduction of salary, when the possessors be- much the same as before), he was astonished at came 'again re-appointed to diplomatic functions. the monstrous increase which there presented itself Well had it been for Mr. Pitt's fair fame, and for his According. tp Mr. Pitt's estimate, there were six Mis country's best interests, had he devoted himself to sions appropriated for the Germanic Empire : there the pursuit of these plans of retrenchment and eco- were now seven, although the smaller States, for 'tansy, instead of embarking in a ruinous war.. But which the majority of the former six were Wante4, Mr. INtt, in 1786, estimated his diplomatic pensions had been lately swallowed up by the larger, and had at a sum not exceeding £8,970 a-year—they were now therefore, unfortunately ler their own liberties !and increased to £52,000 a-year. In 1804 the increase the character of Europe, ceased to uphold Courts in was to £27,41* So that the augmentation of salary terchanging missions. He had no objection to . the from 1786 to 1816 was nearly 150 per cent. and the preservation of that connection with foreign St ates, , rate of pensions nearly £350 per cent. Was that through the medium of diplomatists, whatever might such an account of expenditure as the country had be the changes through which these States had passed, a right to look to in its present circumstances?— and that the rank of the Ambassador should ascend l Something had been said on the subject of rates of a step with the title of the Potentate ; but he saw no exchange affecting foreign Ambassadors, and it had reason why this country should be called upon to pay been truly observed, that however the price of pro- an enormous accession of 'salary to missions, because visions may stand, the rate of exchange ought not some little petty Prince'er Margrave became an Elec to impose a loss upon the income of the Ambassador. tor or a King, and grasped at the adjoining territory He fully concurred in that opinion ; and that the fo- of his feebler neighbour. These personages might reign representative of the Government ought not to call themselves Kings, or Emperors, or Great Moguls, suffer (as he must at one time) from the operations of for anything he cared, provided the People of Eng that fraudulent currency which, to the disgrace of land were not to be additionally taxed as the conse- Ministers and their own injury and that of their im- quence of such mutations. It was of that which he mediate successors, every man was for so long a period felt entitled to complain—it was rf an• expenditure. exposed to, who had to derive his sources of income which in one head of . its items was increased from from a country exposed to'such fluctuations from the £16,555 to £41,206. The Noble Earl was never at rates of foreign exchange. The.last regulation had a loss for reasons when it served his purpose to give most properly and justly, protected an Ambassador them ; and that circumstance rendered his silence re from the losses attendant upon the rates of exchange; garding the augmentation of the allowances to our but the nominal amount of his emoluments, so in- missions in Germany the more extraordinary, especi creased as to Cover that fluctuation, • Was still left as ally as. he had givenabundant reasous for the augmen the permanent scale athich Was to govern the re- tation of the allowance to the mission in Switzerland. duced allowances in. situations not exposed to the de- He (Lord Holland) did not altogether coincide with ductions which had led to Use last advance of the full his Noble rriend (Lord King) in his opinion as to the salary. Mr. Hamilton, in his letter to Lord Casile- propriety of an Envoy at the Court of. the Nether- reagli s in-liils, very propetly_ observed, that it was lands, though he felt most strongly that the political thought fairer an Ambassador shopld. knOw . the full arrangement which connected the,Netherlands with amount of liis.salary, available for his mission, and the United Provinces was directly at variance with that the losses by exchange-in transacting the remit- all those principles which had for ages governed the' tances ought - to fall on the country. But still what policy of Great Britain in her relations with Holland ; he (Lord Holland) meant to allude to. was, that the principles! which were sanctioned by the concurrent salaries still remainedon that scale to which they were authority of some of the most enlightened statesmen raised when exposed to these contingent losses, and that that ever lived—he meant Sir Wm. Temple, De Witt, the same scale was applied to cases free from fluctua- King William HI. and even Prince Eugeee. He should tion. He now came to what the Noble Earl had been not trespass on the time of their Lordships by entering urging respecting thethanges of circumstances, which into the details of the estimates as they affected the et he thought the country must ever watch with care. pense of such a mission. He loathed that species of The Noble Earl had asked, " Is it fair, after you have inquiry which brought into discussion every hundred had an Ambassador in one place and in another, now pounds given to Gentlemen employed in the service to send an Envoy to the same Court, and particularly of the Public abroad and at home. Indeed his indig so when that Court sends you here an expensive Di- nation against the present Ministers of the Crown was plomatic Establishment?" The Noble Earl pressed aroused by the very reflection that such a disgusting that strain of reasoning as far as he could press it inquisition was rendered necessary by their conduct. upon the point of honour and dignity ; but when he It was owing to the lavish expenditure which they came to those cases, where, instead of continuing the created, and to the fraudulent manner by which they old class of Ministers, there had been, it would seem, sustained that expenditure, that the country, suffering an enormous augmentation not only of rank, but ex- under the effects of Ministerial extravagance, was penditure, employed in such branches of the service; bound, unhappily, to look to every shilling that was and when the Noble Earl extended his sphere of in- dealt out. But if circumstances rendered the aug quiry to Switzerland, there, for a moment, he was mentation of any one diplomatic appointment eipe rather at a stand ; lie touched a little upon the recent dient, it did not follow that such an augmentation history of the Swiss Cantons, and, beating about the was to establish a precedent for augmentation at other bush for an argument, at length he fixed upon their Courts to which no such circumstances could apply. geographical position on the map of Europe. "Look There might exist very proper reasons for increasing at Switzerland," said the Noble Earl, " standing be- the allowances of Sir Charles Stuart, of whom iewas tween Germany and Italy, one of the keys of Europe, •impossible, from a consideration of a life passed in a post where the principal:Powers of the Continent the public service with ability and honour, to speak have always struggled to maintain an influence; too highly, which could not furnish a precedent to and was Englaod alone to refrain from putting in increase the appointments of other missions. He her claim for a fair understanding with the people?" would not'say that the mere circumstance of a coun- His (Lord Holland's) reply was, certainly not ; but try being a great resort of British travellers furnished the only consideration with him was, why £2lO or a mason for the appointment of an Ambysador or £250 had, for years, been deemed suf fi cient for a Envoy Extraordinary ; but he was ready )6 acknow- British resident in Switzerland, and why now, for the ledge, that if the public service rendered suck a mis same purpose, £4,900 or £5,300 (from the accounts sion expedient, the circumstance of the country, to he knew not which) was deemed indispensable. The which such a diplomatic character was sent, being Noble Earl had informed them that all the persons frequented by a great number of British visitors, was employed in foreign diplomacy, had followed the re- a very strong ground for granting allowances by gular order of succession from the smallest to the which he should be enabled to do credit and justice highest missions, and he had enlarged upon the belie- to the-country that he represented. It was upon such fits • arising out of such a practice. But there was grounds that he should rather augment the salary of ' an end, it now seemed, of that practical series of in- our Ambassador at Paris than dimiiiish it; but, While struction, for where were the minor offices? The he felt that inclination, he would not extend it to changes which they were called upon to watch, had I other embassies differently circumstanced ; still less erased out of the vocabulary of the Secretary of would lie apply it to an increase of salary to the Vii.: State the very names of these lower offices of diplo• rious members of such establishments, for it was 1 macy, which were rewarded at the rate of £2.50 a evident, that in every augmentation granted to the year. Where, now, was a Secretary of .Legation, Envoy, there was always to be found a correspond- I heard of ? It was true, indeed, they had convertediing increase to Secretaries of Legation, and, indeed, i Electors into Kings, and petty Princes into Potentates to' every person employed in the establishment —they had nothing to do with such paltry beings as One word as to the pensions: the Noble Earl (Liver- Republicans or Commoners—they were engaged in pool) had statedi that fourteen out of the eighteen pursuing higher things, and it was therefore they had persons now employed in the diplomatic service of abandoned the old custom of having inferior officers, the country had passed .through the different grada which was found to answer in the time of Sir Robert tions of that service, from the lowest situation to the Walpole, and to answer, lie believed, with more elevated rank which they now filled. lie most be honour for the country, and advantage to foreign allowed to say, that a rapid progression was a devia- States, than was lately observable under the auspices lion from the principles which had in the best times of higher titles, and what was termed a regenerated influenced the Government of this country. It was system. . But to return to Switzerland. Until the not the practice to elevate those individuals who had year 1793, the expense of the Swiss mission was passed the lower gradations to appointments of Am £23o a-year. Ile was ready to give the Noble Earl bassadurs. These-appointments were reserved under . . . , ;. • • " • 'of the ' 1 0 . 1 • • i' I ' fat Min id . giiiii _pigmies .pu lc re idiom fortune and rank in t he c O nntry : . B u t thbitgli he men who had deioted theineelvii to that bianeh of the public service were not raised to the iiiitit iisien: did cmhaisiei, they rose stirely, thoiigh Ana* to the eituatiod, of Envoy Extraordinary. •He.Cotild speak With i- degree of Confidence on Abet subjett: indeed; were it postible to placethese Estiniates beibre men who passed through the g ra d at i ons o f diploinacy aniituteYhyseatirrpsiiseiBd°, he was confid ent t he y would f eel first, at the Sturri4 e of Envoys' Ex: -traordinary; and next, greeter surpr i s e at theeery% short time in which they reached that elevation; They had increased considerably since the peace; and certainly, if ever there was a time when a de.; decrease on the pensiOrts might have been etpette4 it was whed so many new Codrts were open._ They had been doubled; howeVer, between the years 1804 and 1816. The whole amount of diplomatic salaries was at present £174,000, While the pensions amounted to L 52.000 eiclusiiely of other pensions; which were brought forward in another shape, sub-; ject to what was called the vigilant controul of Par liament, and from which the Civil List was exone rated. It was most extraordinary to hear the Noble Earl (Liverpool) indulge with such self-complacency on'the economy of such an arrangement; He (Lord Holland) recollected that On a former occasion he had ' an argumentative contest with the Noble Earl as td the great difference that' xisted between the civil ex-. penditure Of this country and the United States of America. In referring to the United States; he did not mean to be understood as recommending that Great Britain was bound to assimilate her practite td that of America, although he could never tuttscribi to the doctrine that economy.in expenditure was a de.; rogation from the real. splendour and true character of any kingdom. It was most true that the relations of Great Britain with the world were very different from that of the United States of America; but taking as he did the year 1815, a year of ex traordinary expenses to America, when she `wes at peace with all the world, and had negotiated a iecond Treaty of Peace with this country; yet taking -Ame rica in her relations with the whole world, and Great Britain in her relations as to Germany alottein that year, it would be found that the mission - of,Lord Castlereagh to Vienna, amounting as it did,io 41 or £42,000, exceeded by C 2,000 the whole. of the diplo.- matic expense ofA merica with every part of the world. Would any Noble Lord on the opposite side—would the Noble Earl himself—would any of those .indivi;. duals who had been employed in diplomatic duties- , -; he would appeal to a Noble Friend, 'did he see hire in his place, he meant Lord Sr. Helen's, and whose experience and authority were unquestioned, ;would they say, that they ever found iu their diplomatic or public intercourse, an American Minister who was not fully adequate to the duties of his trust, whether in regard to intelligence, ability,knowiedge, and zeal for the interests of his country ? He did not say that was a reason why we should cut down our esta blishments to the system of America, but it was an argument against that extravagant augmentitiori which had led to an excess of 150 per cent. in 'elation to our own system of 1801., .and was five-fold mord than the diplomatic expenditure of the United States of America. Their Lordships would, however, carry back their recollection to the time in which these estimates were introduced, and to those feelings of delusion under which that system of extravagance found its way. It was at that period when the Noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs had just returned.from , the Congress of Vienna, daubed over with the adula tion and the mouth-honour of all the selfish and the servile of the Continent. When he was the pre cursor of the Royal Visitors, in whose professions of honour and of freedom this country was at that mo ment unhappily disposed to place a liberal confidence. It was at such a time, when not a word was heard of the natural evils resulting from the transition of war to peace; when we never heard of the miseries of abundance ; when not a word escaped the lips of those Ministers, as to all theimaginary causes w;;:..11 they were now so fertile in providing fa , ' the growth of natural calamities, which were the natural results of their own extravagance and misgovernment. It was when they were thos.triumphant . and exulting in their °influence over the Powers of *the Continent, fancyin. , themselves, a, it were, .the dords. of •the j • I • human kind, that these estimates were sanctioned —. (Hear, hear).,ltteuripcied him of the 4ptession 'of a foreign friend (M, CaYonne), whose name he did not quote as an authority, that it was." une iconomie large:' What, I ask (said theNOle Lord), have we purchased at this monstrous expense? 16fluence on the Conti nent of Europe? I deny it. Is there a man out of Parliament who believes in the existence of such an influence? Will any Al . inister of the Crown take cre dit for such an influence? If there be such a man or such a Minister, let him take shame to himself for the subjugation of Italy—for the Unjustifiable aggres sions on the independetiee of ,Naples and Sardinia.-- Let him take Shame to himself for th e unprincipled deviation from allthokg . priicip!es to which the stronger Governments9lthiConAhkent pledged them selVes at Vienna. If . . 4 ',l3irik N"kr . st y Roisessed that lane*, : they are ihe,. efEw 3; l9 at violation of treaties which has laid lialut ga op,. Ciii Austria —which has either ex ilejk . s hyrw:Vii-Ofte dungeons of Vienna the lights and ornantetils,j4et&espective countries, men whosepnly "lime was to seek the ho nour, the happiness; and iliefteedons of their fellow.i citizens--Which allowed' "the 'old i'irtl'tespected ally of this country, the King of Satdinia, to be bearded in his kingdom by an Austrian forco—which allowed such an insult as the transfer of the• keys of his fortresses into the hands . .of • his vindictive and •iirvetcrate enemy !• —.Mew., hear,. hear 1).--. With all these recollections before us, 1% ha, influence, I ask, my Lcird, has Great . Ilritaiti ? i'he N,ible Se cretary tor Foreign Affair; (Lard (:Astltteai_;ll), it is true, had, on the inva s ion of Naples, attdree...l a Cir cular to- the Continental Courts ;• and, 4fi Illt as he 1 was enabled to give an intelligible esp,swisan of his views, it was a reptohation of that, aggritttiiPit• The result has proved either that that reistasent.arioa was a mere pretence, calculated to throw dust is the eyes of Parliament and of the country, or that British in fluence was lost—( Hear, hear). The noble ral I op posite, and myself, have had twice a discussion on the debt dtie by Austria to this country, and ab to the swindling manner in which she endeavours to avoid that Just payment. Ile then stated, that every engine was at work to obtain that repayment. I have In deed, within three tew days, seen in the ilublie pug. .4 , Ii • • I 3 ' j C~ t