Star. — London, England, 1822-07-24 00:00:00

57 . 71"'" the permission of Old Spain before this fartmr granted? He wished that the 'whole. of cumstances relative to the new Republic fairly brought before the House—( Heat, would not go through the history of the contest which the independence of twenty-five trillions people had been obtained from their unw tyrannic masters. He believed it was corm complislied, With the exception of one far was not proceeded against, from a desire to useless shedding df human blood. There fore no excuse for withholding that recogl the rights of this Republic, vk hich it would I portant for them to obtain. It could not be - that such a cause would be giving counter); support to rebel bands against legitimate 'mew. The South American States were p; -entitled to tjle recognition of this country 'was at our instigation that they had first fi signs to liberate themselves. He alluded 'commendation of Mr. Dundas, in 1791, to qislr Consuls. There was, besides, another ation, which was, that the Government of tad declared that no nation should share ii fits of the commerce of,that country who cognize her independence. Any one who present at the .meeting on this subject lately held, and attended by so many mercantile persons of emi • oence. could not fail to be impressed with the im portance to this country of securing a portion of the 'commerce of Columbia. As an Englishman, lie re gretted that this country had allowed the United States of America to surpass her in the glory of re • cognizing the freedom of the South American Colo nies. He concluded that England had virtually re cognized the independence of these Colonies. By the treaties which Old Spain had also made with her, he maintained that she had done the same. The Ho nourable Member concluded by moving for copies of ail the correspondence which had taken place be tween M. Zea and the British Minister at Paris, and also the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, re specting the right of the Columbian Government to be recognized. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY felt himself •'soniewhat at a loss to know how to meet the Hon. • Gentleman's motion. He had not confined himself merely to a motion for papers, desiring to but the House in possession of information of -the present state cf the negociation between his Majesty's Go %ernment and the Agent for the Columbian Govern ment, but wished to open the whole question of po licy: He had thought that the Hon. Member intended -to lay before the House his views of the course which ought to be adopted. The motion in the Speaker's hands did nor; however, afford them any such assist ance. Ile believed it was not the practice -of Parlia :xnent to call upon the Executive to lay information before it, upon a negociation which was not con cluded ; and he thought, that if there was a case in which the House ought to abide by die principle•of practical wisdom, which dictated that no interference should be made between the responsible Ministers of the Crown and the relations with foreign Powers, it , was the present. It was a question of magnitude, and .of great difficulty, and the effect of this motion must 'be to prejudice the pending negociation, and the ge -neral interests of the world. He protested, however, against the act of one Government being a decisive rule for that of another. He trusted this country :1d never run a race with another Government in ich a case, merely because that Government had night it convenient with its interests to recognize : independence of another. If Spain had not acted its on the occasion of the American Revolution in manner altogether consonant with good faith, he Tied that we should prefer resenting such conduct r generosity, and not pay it back in her own coin whilst she was under the pressure of difEculties (Hear). Justice and liberality had been the grounds on which his Majesty's Government had conducted the nego ciations with that country. He hoped the House would not see any reason to distrust them from a re vitw of their conduct towards the South American Colonies. They had recognised all their public acts, such as blockades ; they had respected their flags and armed vessels, and everything, in short, which the Tight of people to manage their own affairs might be posed to demand. He (die Marquis ot London ' had never refused to see any ot their agents.— , had gone upon the principle, that as far as e was a de facto Government, this Government . a right, as regarded the mother country, to cul vate a de facto intercourse. He must say, that he did not think the Honourable Member could have 'that information. which would enable him to have a sound judgment on this subject. It was necessary to 'kno . w what was passing in Spain with reference to the Colonies, and in the Colonies with reference to Spain, before that question could be settled. But he did not think that the House could touch the question as it at present stood, without embarrassing it in some way. It was one of the most important questions that had been entered on their Journals this Session ; and unless it were the object of the motion, that Parlia ment should give some advice to the Crown, or take some practical steps on the papers moved for, lie thought it would not be Parliamentary to accede to it --Vicar, /sear). He hoped the Hon. Gentleman would see the propriety of withdrawing his motion. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH thought that it was not uncommon in the practice of Parliament to move for papers with a .view rather to introduce a discus sion on a particular subject, than to obtain informa tion. Such motions were frequently made without any intention to tie up the hands of the Executive, which he admitted should not be interfered with as to time and circumstances. He was ready to main- Uhl that the recognition of this Government could he no infringement on the rights of Old Spain.— Spain was the country which had more frequently than any other raised their questions among the other nations of the world ; for her Provinces and Colonies had snore frequently thrown off her yoke. In 1642 this country signed a Treaty of Alliance with the King of Portugal, one year after he had declared such in opposition to the Clown of Spaio. He quoted also the recognition of the United Provinces of the Netherlands, at the very time when the Envoy of Spain was actually calling upon the Government of this country to treat them as rebels againsthis master, the King of Spain. The result, however, was, that' the King of Spain very boon gave up'bis demands in this respect, and that very Annoy was sent to the Ne thedaridi is his • 8ri54041 . 6 Majesty's Ambassador, _ for the advantage of British subjects(Hear.)— Ile admitted that a country which committed itself to the policy of revoked colonies, as Fia.nce had done with those of North America, and as Spain had done a year after France had taken that course, placed itself in a state of warfare with the mother country. But here the case seas rely different. We, by recog nizing the-Independent Government, should neither express approbation nor disapprobation. We had no right to express'either ; but by the act of recognitions we should merely do that which was necessary to re lieve our own subjects from tile disadvantageous si-_ tuation in which they stood, as compared with those cif another great commercial nation ; w and not doing this, he considered the Government was guilty of a •iolation of its duty towards the English merchant, by declining to take that course which might be taken without giving any just cause of offence to Spain. The recogni:ion of a Sovereign not in pos session, as France had recognized the son of James the Second, was an insult, if not an attack on the in- dependence of the country concerned, as it was an intrusion. It was pronouncing an opinion where the party had no right to pronounce one—presuming to act as judge, where it had no right to claim juris diction, and, by consequence, it offered a wanton and gratuitous insult. Here the case was totally dif ferent. We were not called upon to decide on the questionable claim of a Prince out of possession. It had not been urged as a matter of complaint against France, on the restoration of the Stuarts, that she had sent Ambassadors to the Protector Cromwell. The right of recognizing an existing Government had been considered to belong - to every State, because it was held to be the duty of every State to promote the interest of its subjects. He proceeded to contend that it was essential to British interests that a diplo matic intercourse should be established between this country and the Governments of South America. This would enable us to obtain information that would put a stop to those depredatiiins which had been directed against our commerce, and lead to the extirpation of the pirates, who had long been in the habit of preying on the subjects of neutral nations. Ought we to continue to sustain such injuries because Spain refused to give up a claim which all the world knew she wanted the means to enforce? Perhaps it was not generally known how long Spain might be expected to persist in such a claim. It was only' for the moderate period of sixty-seven years that she had persisted in maintaining her claims on the united pro vinces, after they had become independent. (A laugh). Were we now to submit to the inconveniencies under which our commerce laboured for sixty-seven years? He further suggested, that the feelings with which the Governments of South America must view the sullen manner in which her independence had been half recognized—the passing of the Foreign Enlist ment Act, under the pretence of maintaining a strict neutrality, but which was, in fact, a measure of hos tility towards them ; and the way in which our com merce with South America had been indirectly dealt with, resembled the conduct of a person who was ashamed to be seen with another, but for his own convenience was willing to have a little closet con versation with him. The feelings likely to be excited by these circumstances were calculated to lead those Governments, influenced perhaps by our commercial rivals, to adopt regulations that would be injurious to our trade. Ought we to submit to such evils on account of the exploded claims of Spain? Was this country in such a state that we could afford thus to play with the capital of its merchants ?—(Hear). , If by such a course we only diminished our exports to South America, the House would surely consider this a miserable exchange if we gave up these out of respect for the claims of Spain. Such a line of con duct, he hoped he had shewn, was neither justified by common sense, nor by the line of conduct which any other Government had ever pursued under simi lar circumstances. He considered that we had a right to recognize a Government actually in possession, that our subjects might not be placed in a more dis-, advantageous situation than those of other subjects, and that he would maintain we might do without vio lating any duty which we owed to Spain. China might as well be expected to demand that we should not do so, as Spain, for the Emperor of China had for sonic years past exercised as much authority in the South American States as the Spanish King. To abstain from recognising the South American Go .vernments under such circumstances was, as Mr. Burke had said (using an old English saying), " to prefer the frill and ruffles to the shirt"—the form to the substance. He again described the disadvantages under which our merchants laboured for want of a diplomatic agent to back their representations when they were aggrieved. In conclusion, he declared it to be his opinion that the Hon. Member for Ipswich deserved the thanks of the House for bringing this subject forward. If the Gentlemen interested, ho nourably interested as British merchants in the deci sion come to by the Government, would now by their votes evince their feeling in its favour, he ttoughtthe effect would .he to strengthen Ministers in the views they took: f this question, if they were sound ones— to confirm them if they were wavering, and, if they were wrolg. to recall them from error, and to .a' line of policy much more conducive to the interests , ' of their country. don to the French Court on the subject, not denying the authenticity of this report. He 4Dr. Lushiugton) had never lost sight of the subject, and he now thought the time had arrived when the House and the •country were entitled to know whether the French Government had given such an 'explanation as the Noble Marquis considered satisfactory, and such as it became the honour of this country to receive ? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, commu nications had been made to the French Government ..... on the subject of the documents which had been pro duced from Buenos Ayres, in the answers to which it was not admitted .by the French Government, that the agent at Buenos Ayres was justified in the represen tations which he had made. Mr. MARRYATI' begged to state what was, per haps, not generally known, that British ships trading to South America at present,. paid just double the tonnage duties which were paid by the subjects of other countries who had Consuls established there.— Many of our merchantmen in those parts had been plundered in a most extraordinary manner by what was called the Chili fleet, under the command of one of our own countrymen. Several of the parties ag grieved had complained to the Government in South America, but, having nobody to support their repre sentations, they stood but a poor chance of getting redress. When an American vessel was carried into Lima, the only American frigate on that coast im mediately went and openly released the captured ship, while our men of -war suffered British ships to remain in the hands of those who had thought proper to detain them. He mentioned this to shew that our commerce was at present carried on under great dis advantages. HeAowever, thought it a little ungra cious that our Government did not recognise the in dependence of South America, while they were dis posed to profit by the mart which it opened to our trade. He hoped the recognition would not long be deferred, though he admitted it was proper that the Government should be left to decide on the time and circumstances under which this should take place. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, if the Hon. Gentleman had brought forward the case of any particular capture in the South Seas, he thought he' should have been able to give a satisfactory expla nation. There had been in all 16 or 17 cases. Some questions were still pending. Our Odicershadstrongly remonstrated in several instances, and upon the whole he believed the cases had been disposed of in a man .ner that left very little ground for complaint. S;:eak ing with all respect for a science with which he had some acquaintance, he meant diplomacy, in the pre sent state of affairs in South America, he thought the representations of our Naval Officers were likely to be quite as successful as any that could be made by a diplomatic agent. He therefore did not think that the interests of British Merchants had at all suffered from their being less entangled than they might have been with diplomatic discussions. Dr. LUSHINGTON stated a case to have oc curred within his knowledge, in which an Independent sloop had been captured by one of our cruizers and carried into one of our West India Islands. The case was brought to this country by appeal, w hen the King of Spain thought fit, through his Ambassador, to claim the property in the captured vessel, on the ground of her being a pirate. He was sorry to say the claim had been partly admitted. He knew the case well, having been engaged in it as Counsel. It had been necessary for them to go to the Tower to search for precedents. Finally, a compromise took place, and half the property went to the King of Spain. Dr. PHILLIMORE explained the necessity which had existed for discussing the claims set up to the pro perty which had been mentioned. The claim of the Spanish King had not been recognized as correct, but the neutrality of this country between Spain and South America had been recognized on this occasion. Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, it was easy to find fault with the conduct of British Officers, but they had a difficult duty to perform, from the man ner in which Spanish property had been covered by British ships. As to the tax imposed by Lord Cochrane on our trade, that was done by right of conquest.— Having conquered the territory to which our mer chants were proceeding, he had told them if they . paid such a tax he would allow them to come there; but if they would not do so, they must go elsewhere.s He did not say this was not an improper assumption on his part, but the merchants were not compelled to pay the tax. A remonstrance on the subject had been successfully made, and Lord Cochrane had beep recalled by the Chili Government. He sai4 this in order to justify the Commander on that station. Our Officers there would much rather have to act with their guns than with their tongues, but he thought their forbearance commendable. As a great nation, it would ill become this country to shew its teeth on every occasion. When this was done at all, it ought to be done with some e ffi ciency rtr :The'Howse.slivided Ayes 111 Noes - hlikjority against the Maim - After a short conversation, in whichMr.-r o mstor, Mr. WILIMFGAtCIt, and naftlrY partiCipa‘sd, Mr. Wagaarroi Cgalacnyt given noiice,iii4) ad postpone the motion, of which Ore I re . ear the extemlent of 413ii*7 r, . 0 1 ..C.544e 4 C.r d ? 1 10 Pet till T.llRksOilig • • made betweenthe manner in which the revenue was collected in Leland and in England, a period ought to be taken, when the circumstances of the two coun tries were in some degree similar.- He would not deny that England was far more advanced in all that concerned revenue, and enforcing the collecting of it, than Ireland; but if a comparison were made between England and Ireland in this respect, taking a period when the state of England generally corresponded with that of Ireland, he should not fear the result.— With respect to the number of defaulters, lie had to remark, that in England evert defaulter had failed for a considerable amount. In Ireland there had been many failures for small sums. In England there might he twenty defaulters for 100,0001. each, while in Ireland if there had been nearly 300, the majority of them failed for not more than 1001. each. Mr. HUME contended that the state of Ireland had nothing to do with the argument. The money was lost in the hands of Collectors appointed by govern ment, and it was with the improp, iety of such ap pointments that his lion. Friend had found fault. He would now mention a circumstance which he ,hould not perhaps have the opportunity,of again mentioning during the present Session. He had moved in the course of it for a return of all public defaulters; and the returns had been made and printed from all the Office: except the Ordnance and the War-office. Those, he understood, had been made, but he had not seen them. The abstract of the volume which these returns formed shewed that in ten years the amount of deficiency by defaulters amounted to £1,124,000 'and upwards; and this was a sum which lie thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought imme diately to look after. The deficiency arose from ap pointments where no proper securities were taken, and from allowing too great balances to. remain in the hands of the Collectors. The Hon. Member then read the following abstract of the Parliamentary Papers for which he had moved, exclusive of the Ordnance and War-office: ABSTRACT OF PARLIAMENTARY PAPER, NO 327, or 1822. PUBLIC DEFAULTERS WITHIN' TEN YEARS. Trea=ury—Mr. Chinnery's balance - £60,110 15 51 Army Pay Office - - - 5,220 14 24 8.0 - r4ck Office .. - 1,793 16 4 Navy Pay Office .- - - 28,122 6 6 Royal Marine Pay Office - - 3,085 15 3 Victualling Office - - - 3,505 7 9 Tax Office - - - 67,280 6 41 Customs (England) - - - 24,074 4 61 .--- (Scotland) . - 3,205 16 44 Stamp Office - - - 11,254 9ZI Post Office - - - 11,595 17 0 Commissioners for Auditing Public Accounts 482,111 S Ot Colonial Audit Office - - 12,885 14 0 Lottery Office - - - 2,941 15 # Woods, Forest, and Land Revenue Office - 1,451 15 1} Auditors of the Land—England and Wales 19,483 8 41 Court of Exchequer (Scotland) - - 13,221 7 0 IRELAND. Tax Office - Excise - Stamp Office - Post Office - Military account 27,525 9 4* 5,959. 19 6 51,746 8 51 21,528 13 111 270,525 16 4k $1,124,393 5 1 The Bills were then ordered to be brought in in pursuance of the RescAlutions. The Tithe Leasing Bill then went through a Commitee, in which the blinks were filled up, and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow. The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned At One o'Clock. t Wee:i Jl also the specting be recog The •soniewh • Gentlem mere'.}• t House i state cf sernmer meat, bt lice: HE to lay be ought tc hands d ance. I : meat to before i cluded ; which I practice should the Cro 'was the • of grew 'be to pi ineral in against rule foi would ich • . hough e hid otyso maw ji oped by gen Justice his lkia ciationi would view( Coloni such ai armed Tight suppos Sorry) ,they here :rad a livate did nc :that it sound 'know Colon: before think at pre way. had b , unless intent some thoug /Jo sec tit • Sir not ui • for pi siun c tion. any ii wrhicl to tin tai n be n Spait than natio ' bad this King such also Ned) Span this the I the this i that .. .. . . )„.. , , . , . ..,, . _ . _ 4 • •• . 77-- ..:;.. ...;., -,. :, ', ". ', , ... -„ :: •• „,'., • • .;,. c ., , •-,. -, • - 4 ' •,, . .- . . , • ~ . • e‘ ••• • . . . . . , .. - . . • . .. . - • • .. • . • ' • ; . •• " • • . , . t o m we re' He could tit conceive a strengeerreeedelit to justify Siy RAM%) - ihoptatbat ain wonl4l. . ceintinTua Or aunia. ' I the eir • tit r e tlitli Spain *aottriet OM lififteleid' 4 7 tit Aga Ibige? rtagfflite the iti • - &nes; ' ItiiitfPOrtittle Comrnittee OMboilnsbedniit the recognidoa of the indepetideOci otlatt late Cole- of:SOoth-America, : should be was tenvieCed Oat the longer: uP, anaitsOltiitClutitins ieved Ito. • ato. H e nies on the, part. of England. But it m)ghtise sup-• she di4 *IN..* -ketje ab e would continue to . set s • Mt. W. SMITH, before Bills were ordered to be contest by posed that Spain had acted in the way he had de- againstber Diva i n x em a. • H e.w i s h e d to as k t h e m : p a brought , in founded en die Resolutions, thought it mitions of t eribed, whe n i t was unquest i ona bl y out o f h er power Marquis wheth er t h e 'queiticin of The recognition of right to remark on the ma nner i n w hi c h t h e serv i ces villirie and was f r t. the . table, he feued that in connexion with.the Eng- to recover tire United - Provinces , ( eieqr, kgfir),..-- South AmericaO fndepehdence was a t present viewed . for Ireland bad lieen conducted. Frem.papers on . ipletay ac. The fact was the eery revers, of this, for.* the pe- purely as a British question, or whether it, Ort, which ; there had been, in the course of a certain ,nuniber of riod to which h e h a d re f erre d sem i n o tar y opera- tered in any .way.bu the treaties made, or "the nego. lish Post (Wee, which produced annually 1.300,090/. - n tions 'were in pro rase, and will' a fair prospect of, ciations carrie(' qn at,A,,jz-la,Chapeile or elsewhere? spare the I was there- success.. But rimier such circumstances, Spain bad The Mar quis . of LONDONDERRY had no objet- years, twenty-one def‘olters, thrOugh whoni,t)lari had ignition of not disputed the right of England toit.be en friendly don to answer the question: He had no hetitationin , been a deficiency of, bpsool. In' cclonexion;lYAii,d4 • ci be so im- terms with tho se p rov i nces; an d, s h e h a d remained saying that he considered the 'question to be' wholly : Post Qfgce of Aieland, which produced annually but ,e supposed at peace with England, though England continued and solely a -B r i t i s h q U est i on , I t was v i ewed without :5-SiOOOL abfpt a twenty-second Part of 'tile Reveille nance and the friend of the United Provinces. Nothing could reference to the interests of any foreign Power, and del ived from, the English Pcit Office, there had Iron to Govern- be stronger than the recognition on the part of Spain, was only to be disposed of according to the law of , 275 delaulteri; ancra deficiency bad thus beep treatise 1 larticularly of the right of another independent State to take that nations, the T reaties w hi c h h a d b een approve d b y ito double the amount of that whi c h - he had *men- I 'y, since i t , part which was best c a l c ulated to prom ote the in- P ar li a m ent , an d w i th a v i ew to expediency, and that tioued in the Enr o ll* Poet.office.revenne. The total . f orme d d e - terests of its own subjects. What was the nature of generosity and prudence which it became this country amount of defalcations in Great Britain and all the • 1 to the re- the recognition for which he contended ? Vv'as it in- to displays . colonies was 390,0001. being little more 'than double .o the Bri- tettded to establish and strengthen the Governments Pr. LUSHINGTON wished to ask a question.—' the amount Orchose,which had occurred in Ireland q consider_ of Colombia, Buenos Ayres, Chili, or Mexico? Not Two years ago he bad brought forward a motion on alone, which at the Union, it would be remembered, Colombia in the least degree. It was not a guarantee to pre- the subject of an attempt, understood to haye been it bad been settled was only to pay two-seveuteenths , . in the bene- serve the present order of things; it was not to bind made by the French Court to establish a Bourbon of the charge thrown on England, and which now , did not re- us toward them , or to connect us with them by Prince at Buenos Ayre s . The N o bl e M arqu i s h a d did not p a y mor e t h an one twenty- fi rth. li o had been alliance; it was merely called for- because it would then stated himself to be about making a represerita- Mr. GO,IJLBVRN thought, if a comparison were i lately held. be for the advantace of British subiects- . -( Hear.l don to the French C.nnyt nn tho ceihiaer nnt Aariviner made isetutt4n th., re.../... .. ....).:..I. oh.. BOXING. Yesterday was a real display of jollity and disappointqient. It ihs a day too when one of the best men in England had to light for a stake of 100 sovereigns, and that tried and approved man was Dick Curtis, a lad about 9st. 9.1 b. • ills opponent was Petri. Warren, a supposed clever fellow, who fancied fighting better than working, and full a stone heavier than his adversary. Coin brook, Bucks, was the spot fixed upon, and the toll-collector had a good market. The fight took }lace within two miles southward of the town. The seconds and bottle-holders were Belcher and Shelton for Curtis, and Tom Owen and Josh. Hud son for Warren. Rouna I.—Warren made Fives-Court play, but Curtis avoided him, A rally followed, and Curtis gave a left-handed muzzier at full per ventage, which drew claret invhlbly between the grinders, and his jollity in grimace told truth about first blood. Warren was floored from the weave. 2. Warren was upon a wafts to get at Ms adversary, but Cur tis seemed to understand breaking pound better than dancing, and in a ratty both were busy at work, and Warren was throwp from'the c103e.--31 to 1 on Curds. 5. Warren's bead was in pickle.—Poundage on Curtis. 4. A bit of a stop was made to the gaiety of Curtis by a flush hit over the mouth. Ina rally /01.trren played the harieqiiinado very naturally, his ideasbritig in a state of nothingness. 5. Curtis had brought his adversary's stone down to his mark, and here he commenced his finishing career. 6. Warren Waslit to all parts of the ring, and, as it was en.. phatically observed by a man of eminent abilities in the prize ring, Warren lost the lay down. He was dead beat, and the smile on his countenance was changed to that of a misanthrope. In the'teth and last round Curtis was not content with one and two, but he let loose with the left hand, which t o ld upon bridgeslit . of the nose, his right followed on the jaw, and hts loft wls wnik again upon the eye until his adversary was deaf to dine. • The &coma FICILT t if It can be so tailed, was between A tr i a ?) and Laskbruak. It oug ht to be remarked, it was their third battle. After fighting nine rounds, iii of width Parish.had decidedly the best of, a strange turn tpok . place, and amidst the Murmur eMof the spcctato‘s, it was declared to be a wired of concern, nothing else bit the raidirit cross that had been attempted wooly mtg. Parish, hirsvever, to all appearance,. was toe *.d out of the ring.in a state of stupor by his second, Spin;. We' aremot lit the secret' as to the ha, but it Wes the tenth% As if it ,had been all right Parish eguli.pot have lot. igtAkrispaetchc.d to ht • the terrific (Aterloorin the course thifati:oft4(de4,,kgargrf h Wade geed pa thip4crie iimmENMI