Star. — London, England, 1822-05-08 00:00:00

0 • •••• • • • • •••• s • . 'ARY PROCEED, •-•0011311 OP LO*oB, MA . The LORD CHANCELLOR came down fey the purpre of entering into further proceedings to the Iderchnumt Peeress; bet, as there were nor - present, a Committee of Privileges could not be formed, and of course the business went off. A little before live o'clock, the Irish Linen Bounty Bakeei Nsveral Private Bilis, were brought up from the Commons, aid reed a first time. Aperson from the Office of Chief k.retaff In Indwelling!. certain Papers, pursuant to order. '4; Bills on the table were read in their several stages, end the House adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Mr. BRIGHT presented a Petition from Bristol, praying a revision of the Criminal Law.—Laid upon the table. • The Marquis of CHANDOS presented a Petition from the Owners and Occupiers of Land in Buckinghanuhire, against the plans before the House for the relief of the fa= terrsts; particularly those of the Hon. Member for P ton (Mr. Ricardo). Lord E SOMERSET presented a similar Petition from the Landholders of Gloucestershire. Mr. CURTEIS presented a similar Petition from Susses. These Petitioners said they looked upon the scheme with " sur prise and dismay." Mr. GOOCH presented two similar Petitions from Suffolk. The Petitioners stated that they also looked with " surprise and dismay" at the Hon. Members ' plans. Mr. WODEHOUSE presented a similar Petition from Thet ford, in Norfolk. Mr. BURRELL presented a similar Petition from the eastern parts of Sussex. These Petitioners looked at the plan in tended for their relief with " pain and consternation" (A laugh). All these Petitions were referred to the Agricultural Com- . mittee. Mr. DUGDALE presented a Petition from the Drysakers and Bacon Curers of Warwick, praying for an equalization of the Duties on Salt in this country with Ireland.—Laid on the table. Mr. S. RICE presented a Petition from the Christian Sepa ratists of Limerick and Ennis, praying to be put on the.same footing with the Quakers as to the taking of certain oaths. Mr. BUXTON bore testimony to the moral habits of the Petitioners.—Laid on the table. Mr. HUME moved for Returns of all Money which had been paid to Newspapers for the insertion of GovernMent Adver tisements. He stated some cases in which a partiality had been :hewn, by giving the adveftisements to Newspapers of a com paratively limited circulation. Mr. CURWEN seconded the motion.—Ordered. CHETWYND brought up the Report upon the Va- grant Bill. After some words from Sir R. Wu.sots, it was ordered to be taken into consideration ou Monday next. Mr. C ItEN FELL asked when the Correspondence between . Government and the Bank, relative to the ReneWal of the Chara, ter, for which he had moved, would be forthcoming? Mr. LUSHINGTON said he was unable to give an answer. Mr. IIUME moved for Returns of the Number of half-pay Officers whose pay was said to amount to fi v e millions. fie' had ma de a calculation, and he could not ascertain that the amount of the half-pay was snore than four millions and a half— (Hear, hear !).—Ordered. Mr. lIUME complained that he had, some time ago, moved for Returns of the Sums in which certain Public Officers were Defaulters in their Accounts. Ile wished to know when these Accounts might be expected? • Mr. LUSsi INGTON said, the Accounts were very exten sive, and he could not pledge himself to produce them on any particular day. They would be made out as soon as pes.ible. Mr. IlUblE then moved that they be produced forthwith.— Order( d. Mr. R. MARTIN obtained leave to bring in a Bill fur pre venting Cruelty to Animals. • Mr. BENNET wished to know when the discussion upon the Superannuation 13111, which had been put off from day to day, might be expected? Mr. LUSHINGTON said, his Majesty's Ministers were not answerable for the delay, as it was entirely attributable to the press of business before the House. Mr. BENNET said, it was desirable it should come on at an early day. Mr. WELLS presented a Petition from the Land-owners of Kent, against Mr. Ricardo's plms. The Petitioners looked upon these plans with a surprise and.dismay."—Laid on the table. Mr. GRENFELL moved for a Return of the several Pe riods, from 1722 to 1822, at which any Renewal or Extension of the Bank Charter took place. Ile said it would be found that in 1800 only was an application made by the Bank for a renewal before the former Charter had expired. The reason assigned for anticipating the expiration of the present Charter was, that the Bank had agreed to suffer similar establishments to itself to be erected anywhere not within sixty-five miles of London. It appeared to him that if this relaxation was any benefit, it should be alto extended to the vicinity of London, matt no qualification should he made. lie should oppose the renewal of the Charter to the Bank. Mr. LUSHINGTON said, he had no objection to the pro duction of the Returns. MABERLY said, he understood .it was intended to allow the Bank to become bidders for this loan. As this was a power which they did not possess under their former Charters, he wished to know from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, whether, in the extension of their Charter, a clause was intro duced, or would be introduced, by which the Bank would be enabled to go into the market and buy up Annuities, or become bidders for the Half-pay Loan ? ;dr. LUSHINOTON said, that no such clause was intro duced, or intended to be introduced, in the Bank Charter.— The Returns were then ordered. Mr. WALI.ACE postponed the further consideration of the Report of the Committee on the Navigation Bill until Monday, the 20th instant. He also postponed the Commercial Statutes Repeal Bill to the same day. men thought they took possession of theit..offite they. had discharged their duty. Many of these Consuls-Ganerid, if he (Mr. Hume) was rightly informed, were absent for years together. The Noble Lord had greatly in creased the number of Consuls in 1815, without af fording any additional facilities to trade. The Con suls-General enjoyed large 'salaries, having scarcely anything to do. There was a Consul-General in the Netherlands with a large salary, and another at Paris with a salary of £9OOO a year, though his Office was open but from eleven to one o'clock in the day. , As the charges now stood, a French vessel could enter a port and discharge its cargo at one-fourth fess ex pense than an English one. Upon the whole it ap peared to him that the system ought to be reformed, and he hoped the Noble Lord would tusa his atten tion to it. The Hon. Member concluded by moving " That a humbk Address be presented to his Majesty, pray ing that he would be graciously pleased to order Returns of Fees charged at the several ports by his Majesty's Consuls and Vice- Consuls, from the year 1792 to 1821, and the authority by which the same were demanded." The Marquis of LONDONDERRY did not rise to give any opposition to the motion. The papers would be produced, but the Hon. Member was him self aware that the subject was an important and diffi cult one. The Board of Trade had for some time been considering how far it was practicable to adopt an uniform scale of fees for all the ports; but so many difficulties occurred in the detail of the plan, that, as yet, they had not come to any decision. But though this object could not be attained, yet it was easy ter merchants to ascertain by application, either at the Foreign Office or at the office of the Board of Trade, what were the fees to be paid to British Consuls at each particular port. Upon the score of uncertainty, therefore, no great complaint could be made. It might perhaps he necessary to say, that though Con suls were respon'sible at his (the Noble Lord's) office, yet that, as'they were in fact commercial agents, they were entitely under the controul of the Board of Trade. As io the authority by which fees wete levied, he could answer. the . Hon. Member, that it wigs under the sanction of the Government at home. He (Lord Londonderry) agreed that it was desirable to equalize the charges at all the ports, and that it would be better to pay the Consuls by salary, and abolish fees altogether—(llear, heat). —But there were great diffi culties in the way of doing this. The sum paid to Consuls already amounted to 30,000/. but what would it be if all the Consuls and Vice-Consuls had salaries? Therefore, when it was not possible to salary all, it would be unwise to give them only to a few ; but he had some hopes that a plan would yet be adopted to remove a portion of the Hon. Merti-_ ber's complaint. But it was asked why merchants, residing on the spot were not made Consuls, which would save a considerable expense ? So they bad been ; in a great many instances the Vice-Consuls were ta&en from this class. But he was no friend to ' extending this system, for it was calculated to give these individuals unfair advantages in the trade in which they were engaged. This was the light in which Government had viewed the subject, and, before the end of the Session, a Bill upon . the subject would be brought into the House. With regard to the absence of Consuls-General, he (Lord London derry) had no objection to give all the information in his power; but be should say that he did not know a case such as the lion. Member had stated. The Noble Marquis then referred to the case of Mr. Chamberlain,Consul-General at Rio Janeiro, to whom , allusion had been made on a former night, with a ' view of rebutting the charges which had been brought against that Gentleman. He begged the [louse to suspend their judgment until the return home of Mr. Chamberlain,when it would be sheww•n that thesecharges were entirely without foundation. Mr. ROBINSON said this was a question of much delicacy and considerable difficulty. The paying of Consuls by salary was certainly the mote desirable mode, if the objections to it in the way of increased expen:e were not so powerful. Much had been said of the high charges of the Consuls at certain ports, but it was a fact that they were sometimes without receiving any fees, and that they and their families were reduced to considerable inconvenience. If the fees varied, it should be also recollected that so did the mode of living at the different ports. The subject bad been hug under the consideration of the Board of Trade, and he (Mr. Rubinson) hoped they would at length devise some plan for supporting the Consuls respectably,without incurring any additional expense. Mr. ELLICE hoped that, it any new arrangement was made, it would not press upon the shipping inte rest. He would suggest that shippers might be al lowed to charge to the owners of the goods whatever charges they incurred to the Consuls at the ports. Mr: HUME then moved for returns of what periods Consuls-General had been absent from their ports since 1815. Ile considered that the President of the Board of Trade deserved great credit for the various reductions he had caused in charges affecting the shipping interest. He hoped to see that Hon. Gen tleman pursue the same course with regard to the present ; subject. After an observation from Sir R. Wicsow, and an explanation from the Marquis of LONDONDERRY, the motion was agreed to. tion of the sufferings of the wretched people. _ not in Clare alone that their situation was so deplora ble ; in the Counties of Mayo end Rokemoisoa they were in a state of absolott starvation. He was sorry to see that the prospects were equally unfavourable for the next year. After a few words from . Sir J. NEWPORT and Mr. DRUMMOND, the Petition was brought up, ordered to be laid on the table, and be printed. Lord A. HAMILTON also presented a similar Petition from the growers of barley in the County of Lanark.—Ordered to be laid on the table, and to be printed. AGRICULTURAL REPORT. - - The Marquis,of LONDONDERRY moved the Order of the Day for the further consideration of the Report of the Agricultural Committee. On the question being put that the SPEAKER do leave the Chair, Mr. CURWEN rose, for the purpose of asking the Noble Marquis (Londonderry) if he would agree to go at once to the consideration of that part of the Report relative to the scale of duties, instead of dis cussing that part which proposed the grinding and eiportation of foreign wheat ? The Marquis. of LONDONDERRY admitted that the scale of duties was one of the most material parts of the Report ; and he appeared to acquiesce in the suggestion of the Hon. Member for Cumberland. A desultory conversation then took place, in which Mt. Goods, Mr. BENETT (of Wiltshire), and the Mar quis of LON DON Danny, participated. Mr. LOCKHART commented strongly on the conduct of Ministers with respect to this question.— The Noble Marquis should not have been satisfiei by detailing to the House the plans of ethers, he should enter into some proposition on hisbven responsibility. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY interrupted the Hon. Gentleman, and said, " lam ready to do so." Mr. LOCK HART immediately sat down. Mr. ATWOOD contended, that the foundation of a great political change was laid by the conduct which Ministers pursued. All the propositions which they had submitted to the House on the subject of agricultural distress were obscure, inconsistent, and inconclusive. The Hon. Gentleman then contended that the increase of taxation since agriculture was in a flourishing condition was in proportion to the in crease in the value of the currency. The price of corn at the termination of the last war was 121.1.. the quarter; and it was now from 475. to 495. the quar ter, and the taxes, instead of having increased one fourth, were naw actually doubled. He thought it impossible to maintain the doctrine that taxation was not the cause of agricultural distress. What, he asked, became of the doctrine of the Hon. Member (Mr. Ricardo), that recurring to a metallic circula- 1 tion made no more than a difference of 10 per cent. in the value of money, when that difference was by no means adequate to account for the present diffi culties? When they came to examine the state of the country they found that the taxes were now 55,000,000/. double what they had been in 1792. to large an amount he thought sufficient to give an idea or what the nature of taxation was—(Near, hear). If they found that the standard of money could not bear a higher price than at present, they then fixed an, accumulated taxation. He thought it then of the greatest importance to fix a proper standard of value, and the best mode of knowing what standard prices could bear, would be by recurring to experience as the guide. The highest price which was ever ob tained, up to the period of the commencement of the last war, for corn, was 475. 9d. For the half century preceding the war it was generally 395. sd. the quarter ; and from that back to 1693, 395. 4d. making a difference of only ld. which strewed how little effect the operation of the standard of cur rency then fixed had produced; and he saw no reason for now altering it. Mr. RICARDO observed, that the Hon. Member who had just sat down had fallen into sonic errors, on which he thought it was necessary to put him right. The Hon. ►Member had spoken of him as if he were an advocate for a paper circulation. He spoke of him as if he had not been the first to cry out against that system. The Hon. Member alluded to a pamphlet which he (Mr. Ricardo) published on this subject, and he was willing to trust the truth of his argument to what was stated in that pamphlet as to remunerating prices, without which the farmer could not go on. The Hon. Member spoke of him as if he was responsible for all the alterations which took place in the value of money in 1819. A greater de preciation in the value of the currency had existed befpre 1819 than had existed then, but for that de preciation he (Mr. Ricardo) was not responsible; however, that evil was then remedied by the Bank itself. He maintained that the difference between the value of paper and gold was *not more than five per cent. But whether the difference was 20, or 50 per cent. how was he (Mr. Ricardo) responsible for it? He proposed a measure which would have made the circulation of gold unnecessary, but the House did not think it prudent to follow it. The principal difference between him and the Hon. Member was as to the alteration in the currency. Ile (Mr. Ricardo) maintained that alteration was not more than 10 per cent. He believed that depreciation, as applied to the currency, was not-generally understood; for the currency might be depreciated, while it increased in value. If he were asked why gold was the best standard, he would say, because it was always. the standard; but if Parliament had not passed the Bill of 1797, the country would not now be exposed to the evils arising from the fluctuation of the currency. If the lion. Memlaer meant that corn should be adopted as the standard, be would have no objection to it, if it were less •ariable than Old but no in variable standard could be adopted. He • could • • sanction the argument that all our distress was att" butable to taxation, he (Mr. Ricardo) had a large extent of land, and not encumbered with debt, and what he suffered was cbasiderably more than • what proceeded . from taxation. After taxation iherresat more suffering between the landlord and tenant.- The Hon. Member had made a mistake in the prices • corn at former - periods. Previous to 1744-the price was 325. the quarter, and from that, down to 1783, ~.~~ ~, R ., . . 1, Which proved a consider a bl e place in the price during th e , e mean to contend that tatation the contrary, he thought every the pockets of the Peoples/a s a be admitted this, he was not so _ taxation was the cause of all Quo that were the talc ought not the met. chant and manufacturer, who paid taxes as well a s the agriculturist, be equally affected by them. H e !contended that this theory was insuflicientro account for the existing distress. It might be asked if taxa. don were doubled, would sot the priced* coot b e doubled? he would adMit it, if taxation were laid entirely on corn, but not otherwise; if the tithes and poors'-rates were doubled, which immediately pr emed on agriculture, then he admitted the price of co ra Woad be doubled. He knew it would not be agre e . able to the House that he should now enter into th e defence of his propositions. He thought there could be so doubt of the validity of the principle for which • ne contended, and which appeared to him invulnerable. After a few words from Mr. Atwoon in explamcm,.., the House went into a Committee on the Resolution:. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose, and said that he thought it would he more for the general arrests of the country, if Honourable Gentlemen fined themselves to some practical view of the sub ject, and not wander into extraneous questions.... (Hear, hear).—The great interests of the country. would be sacrificed by travelling from the pinion. tions which were submitted to the consideration rf the House. He thought the ]honourable Memb;: (Mr. Attwood) ought to have reserved himself I r .the question which the Honourable Member for E. sex was to bring before the House. Ile (Mr. Att. wood) adverted to the Bullion question, which brought forward the Honourable Member for For. tarlington, the gladiator on that subject. Ile would take a more limited field, and confine himself to a narrower view of the subject, with a hope of elect ing some practical good for thecountry. He believed they were all agreed that something ought to be done to regulate the importation of corn, by a duty. Not less than five plans had been submitted, all of them endeavouring to aim at some change in the existing system. But he now wished to cent to the three principal questions which he had to offer to the consideration of the Committee. The first was as to the precise point at which the ports should be opened. The maximum 'now fixed was eighty shillings; big when the price rose to that amount, the ports, by the I existing law, were opened, without any regulation whatever. With the exception of the Honoinab:: Member fonlomersetshire (Sir Thomas Lethbric!ge), and the Honourable Member for Wiltshire (Mr. Be. nett), who had proposed two resolutions in opposition to the principle, they were all agreed that there ought to be some corresponding relaxation of the price a: which foreign corn should be imported. He was from thinking that distress arose from want of sntli cient protection, for he %%ell knew that protectica Could not give prices. In his opinion, the price even of seventy shillings svaa in itself a prohibition in ordinary years. He would now advert to the v.() resolutions proposed by the Honourable Member for Portarlington (Mr. Ricardo), and his Right Honour able Friend (Mr. Huskisson). The former proposed that foreign corn should be admitted on a general principle when the price rose to seventy eh:llings; but that a prior entry should be given to corn in warehouse, at a price of sixty-five shillings ; and that if the market price should rise to eighty shillings, then that foreign corn should be let in, subject to a duty. He had himself proposed that the ports shoall be opened at sixty-five shillings, subject to ?I duty of twenty shillings, which (adding ten shillings, the ex pense of bringing the coin here), would make the charge thirty shillings, and the whole amount ninety five shillings—a price that, he thought, would be a complete protection. However, before anything prac tical was decided upon, public opinion was to be consulted. He knew that an idea prevailed arno::7, a great body of the agriculturists, that it would rst be expedient to open the ports before the price rose to eighty shillings. But he felt no alarm at the pre position of the Honourable Member for Portarling ton, or at that of his Right Honourable Friend ; f;r if the duty was to be of an operative character, it was better to begin early than to wait till a glut of foreign corn was thrown into the market. However, he did not himself propose any alteration of the price at which foreign corn should be admitted. Yet, as there was a great mass of foreign corn now in the warehouses, he thought it would be advisable to al low it to be brought into the market sooner than the law, as it now stood; permitted. Upon this point, however, the Honourable Member for Somersetshire, and the Honourable Member for Wiltshire, were very tenacious, opposing the admission till the price rose to eighty shillings, except in the case of corn which had been in warehouses for a certain time. Now, with respect to the scale of duty, the Honourable Member for Somersetshire proposed forty shillings, which he afterwards offered to reduce to thirty-five shillings; but he might as well have said tlisove should not have any importation of foreign corn at all, unless the Trite could be unnaturally forced up; for a duty of thirty-five shillings, with the addition C; ten shillings, the expense of importation, wou!J amount to an actual prohibition. It would be quite impossible that the foreign grower could ever supply us upon such terms. If the Honourable Baronet sup posed that an expense of forty-five shillings could be charged on an article that already cost eighty shit. Pings in the market, he supposed a measure that, it carried, could not last for a week. He would ask the House would not -repeal the Bill in one sitting? He could not conceive any delusion greater than to sanction such a principle. As to the proposition of the Honourable Member for Wiltshire, it partook so much of the nature of the other, that he could by no means agree to it. The Honourable Member prc• posed a duty of twenty-foiri shillings, which, with the ten shillings added, made thirty-four shillings- 3 charge infinitely too high ..to remain as fixed, who .the price rose to eighty. shillings; This, likewise, amounted to nothing shore - of a direct .prolfilvitic l i and could not be admitted as a general principle. Looking to the proposition of the Honourable Mon beretor Portarlington, he found that it was for havi4 fifed'duty always in operation, and :that it should be regulated on a moderate scale.! OropOsitioa differed from that of his Right Honourable Frield: inasmuch as Iris Right Honourable Friend wooll make his duty of fifteen shillings not fixed in - dl • •*v. - .. • t . - .1 • • • .' , ` . _ • - • • ' • ': • v. . . . .. - - , • . . Cullibi 4.13. 7?n , .1. , • . -....-,.. -._ ,Wito *ere cal to bn, , . , the cha- l _and die. stut Weems - , sae** Avail? enon was 4sv th e gustier, 7EEDINGS. Mae' in iontrat. litho ' the table luse s pentlihtreee el abesroesse t Leern. *reaps had taken p la °trees, dine Wsuld be also Ann' ' ' the of how r. H. BLAIR catobaratiiii nationalist yens. He did not na, AT 7. -. long CrlWeisend had been aksolt from their general distress. warnoi a burden; on t down at three o'clock posts. e knew* was usual to ninsiderthe offic e of Mr. FRENCH made a few observations cm the :laicise* taken from the oceedints ° l2 the.____clain Consul-General as a sinecure l and that these Gentle- present state of Ireland. He did ,- that his leuerson pismire; but though b+ e'er! 'vie. rell fr:,_ men thought they bad it`for life ; and that if they that day received, Save a most lamentable &KAP - blind as to say that uz _.• _ A- —I--t -I • I. - -- - .......ut tine tif the sufferinrs of the wretched people. It was distresses. If that wen BRITISH CONSULS ABROAD. Mr. lIUME rose to bring on his motion upon this subject, of which he had given notice. He stated that his object was to fix a scale of kes payablo to Consuls and Vice-Consuls, as at present great uncer tainty prevailed upon that subject. England was al most the only commercial country which had not a uniform system of charges. America had a uniform system—so hitd France. In many places the Consuls were paid by salary, and had no fees whatever. The charges payable to British Consuls varied in every post. Whilst an American ship paid but tao dollars for exhibiting the ship's papers, it cost an English ship from two to six pounds, at the same port. Lists of charges should be made out, and delivered to the masters of vessels. He bad taken the trouble to compare the charges at several ports to which Bri tish ships resorted, and he found the greatest discre pancy in them. Foi- a vessel of 150 tons burden the charges were At Ifamburgh Cl 17 B—Or 3d. per we. Rotterdam . 516 11 • ltgurdeaux - 11 2 6 'Naples 4 II 3 Leghorn - 3 8 9 Genoa 3 15 0 And St. Michaels a different sum from all these... He contended that all these charges were over-rated, a nd that at least they ought to be brought to some uniform standard, by which the British merchant w ould be governed. He had said they were over rated, because he found the allowance to British Con sols had greatly increased 'within a few years. In • 792 it was but £lO,OOO, now it amounted to 1:50,000. - understood the subject was under the considers ,of th e Board of Trade. These questions, how ever, eterfsometimes years under consideration be fore any decisive step was taken, and he therefore wished to call the attention of Ministers more p ar _ icularly to die subjeCt. He had also to complain .rat proper persons were not chosen as Consuls abroad. Persons had been appointed to the situation son 1791 He t e ion ver, fore wish• ticul that abrc AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Lord A. HAMILTON presented a Petition from the Commissioners of Supply in the County of La nark, complaining of the distressed state ot the Agri cultural Interest, and praying the attention of -the House. The Petitioners also prayed for the liberty of importing distilled spirits into England. He said that the distress was not confined to the growers of corn alone, but that it had extended itself among the breeders of sheep and cattle. The Petitioners had staved, that they relied upon the wisdom of that House for some plan for their relief, but he much feared that those feelings of confidence would be im paired by the proceedings of last night. Mr. MAXWELL was of opinion, that all the re strictions on the consumption of grain imposed by the. Distillery Laws should be done away with. Much could yet be done for the relief of the farmer by in creasing the consumption of corn, and by an efficient' reduction of taxation. Mr. J. P. GRANT said, this; the breeders of cattle