Star. — London, England, 1814-11-15 00:00:00

(AA hisqr itof . t tante was coneTurfcct.' lqe (Xord Grentille)at the time that treaty was-under consideration, had eitiresired great doubts of the wis dom of the proceeeing.which bed been adopted, be. cause it tended to lessen, if not to annilolate, the in froentent Britain with the continental Powers, her' allies. True' it was, that the conclusion of a treaty with France, instead of an armistice, tended to limit the claims and interference of France as to continental af fairt,leaving the other continental powers at liberty to modify and carve out their inure arrangementsat their own discretion. But with regard to us, it had a very different effect ; for, b r it, We ceded to France all her colonies, all those •stequisitions which would have game us an influence in ulterior discussions with the ,Piavers of Europe. France, from her position alone, *Could not be excluded from influence in discussions bout Continental arianorements ; but from our insu lar position, our only influence rested on the posses. eioß of those great colonial acquisitions which we were entitled to hold, not only for the purpose of re ducing France within just limits, but also with the *claim:nal view of making other arrangements on the Continent, in which this country naturally felt a deep iutetest. No man ever existed, deserving the name of 'a statesman, who could doubt for a moment as to the deep interest which this country must ever take irathe fate of Holland and the Netherlands. What, then, had we done With the later of these countries ? Austria rejected them, Russia and the other Powers felt s° interestin their defence, so that the whoie lawthen of proe-cong Mem was throws. upon the *boulders of Britain alone ! If an armistice only had been signed at Paris, we should have brought to the Ulterior negotiations all that influence which we pos. sassed at the close of the war, and thus should have been able to prevent that fatal delay which had since ensued. When the Allied Sovereigns honoured this cotnary with a visit; the language was, that that visit was shortened because the Congress was immediately to assemble. Wire then could have supposed that it was to be so long adjourned, that even at this mo ment, perhaps, its proceedings had not actually corn nienced ? In this interval we had surrendered all the means of influence afforded us by our own acquisi tions, and werein consequence sadaled with the im mense expense of maintaining an army on the conti nent, in order to defend interests which our situation alone at the dote of the war would have enabled ii to protect. Had the old mode of negotiation beau pursued, all.fita other Powers would have felt the same burthen which now presses upon us, and would all have been more anxious to accelerate a ,definitive treaty. into the nature of this engage ment, when it should come before the House, he should enter more at large; he sheuid now only remark upon its reciprocity, which was. most ex traordinary ; for, according to the Noble E irl, it obliged unto Maintain an anti y on the continent, where Prussia,. Russia,anchAustria would maintain one with. oat obligation. What effect the presence of our army might have in settling the minds of the people of the Netherlands, be did not know; but that these minds should be settkd at all by a foreign army, did not ap pear en consoling to this side of the House as it might tO the other. 'Unless be wee grossly misinformed as ' teethe effective strength of that army, though the ex rarieneit was grievoc s, avid the precedent alarming, sinnusuch asit was twadeavi•honothe consent or know. Indathialterliannwit, iivivegaretto its effecrem:sheocion , • ells :of Russia, Amnia, iti e ftaance, altlioop the amount of it onlght . leit elliniiable in quality (3s he I was suie such portioii as consisted of British soldiers whistbo,) in pointolquantity, is was utterly incoa ble of producible any elf-ct at all an their councils.-- Having said_ thus muth, it mug not'be supposed that he had exhaosted the subject. He would say more when ibeeffect of that measure of separating the de finitive from the primitive treaty came before the House. As to the enormous -expense of rem army abroad, he did not deny that it was necessary ; but it was not shewn to be so: the measure WAS 'IL W, and called for the .moist distinct arid precise eni of its necessity. As to its fleets On the general pact. fication of Etirapp, the Noble Earl was silent : he did .not call for his explanation • at present ; but dreadful would be that inonsent when it should come, in which the name of a British negotiator should be found • auctioning the renewal and final eoabiishment cif • Mat system of unjust partition, tibial) was, as his Noble Friend (the Marquis of I.utsdowne) had truly called it, the origin et , all our calamities. What steps would be taken, he would not venture to pro. nounee ; but at least we might have this consolatinn, that if instead of hailing the re-estahlis!lment of that national independence, the principle of that great ramie in which we had fought and conquered, we should be doomed to witness its Joel enndemnetion to se: an act which should recognize no right in any nation to independence, but which shoula declare that the power a f the strongest was the only and that ambition was the only rule of justice, sigifed by all the Sovereigns at the Congress, and handed down to posterity as the final issue of the Contest of Feirepe—we nyglit at least have this consolation, and the Noble 1 irl might have at least this satisfaction al accompanying the dreadful ins:rumen' with a pro test lamentieg its execution, disciairnieg any alaitre in it, refusing to acknOwledge it, steaming it to be an insult on the ri4lits of mankind, and a violation of, thoseprinciples solemnly recognised in the State-paper' which had been read by his Noble Friend ; but be could not enter into the separate cases of those powers ho would be the victims of such an instrument, for that would imply a doubt that such a measure was contemplated ; he Caold not make a question of the tight cf transferring the sovereignty of Sazony, (a people happier in their own galvernment than any , other nation of Germany),. against the desire of the Oeupiti—anal in opposition to the will of those armies aetio congnered at Leipsie, the battle of which was tle root and feundetion of all success—teethe demi tion of any other power : he could not bring himself to enquire whether natiens were to be transferred like flocks and herds—not as subjects of a Prince who held their government in trust for their benefit, but as peoperty to be assigned at the will of its possessor. He should have felt moreut ease, nevertheless, if the Noble Earl, ineteed of preserving silence on this point, bad proclaimed principles like these, and had assured the house that though our negociatiuns might be unsuccessful, the, should at least be never stained with the guilt of making us a party to principles de:,- trtictive of the DUSK iiiiiffests and dearest rights of linttiolik • •••••a.. •• TM anvils of LANSDOWNE raplained. and ••• • • • afteed to inftr; 4h6i*dtdii- *cr stifi , f6neo o aftettht word 4 6 copy" in bib Address 1 after4hitil it was pt and carried nest. eon. —Adjourned. HOUSE Of COMMON: I . • New writs were ordered to be issued fcr rite County t4Gia. morgan. in the ro Am of Th o ma s Vymtisam, defeatotti- - . for the Borough of N..Wport, in the liet of Wight, lo the room of Sir leo. W tn. Holmes, Barr. deceased t•itrei- fur the Borough of Aylesbury, is the room of 'l'hotaaslisupcy, k,sq. wiso has accepted the yhii! ern Hund re ds. The Ci - iA s tt 11.1.01 t of the ttarne2oEtt brottilit up the suboance of the Coneention cencludedstiltie4tseut to the tread.. of Chmmont and Pais, between Great Britain' and tip Ewe- ' rots of /twat ia and Russia, and the liug of Proesia. Mr. CitOKER moved tilt: second rratling of the Seamen and Petty-officers' Relief Bit, teas done accordingly, and to b: committed to-morrow: C3LONEL QUENTIST. Colonel PALMER postponed his motion for the Evi dence of the Court-martial on Colonel Quentin till Thursday. • • SU?PLY. The House then re;olved itself into a Committee of Supply, when theehancellor of the Exchequer enove,i that the necessary liAimates be relerreJ to the said Committee. Mr. TIERNEY complained. that the Right Hon: Gentleman h.td not condescended to enter iota any explanation of ilte:e estiin a:es. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that the only account which requi;ed expla nation was a sTrant of X 1,200,000 ; that ;...rraur tvcuia be asked for the service of the Allies, of House were apprised' , With- respect to the oilier votes, they were only the ordinary accotint.s, and iie - thought to them there would be no t)l)iect:nn. . The. House then went into the Coi;intittee. "Sir G. WA R KEN DER then m o ved the vote of seamen for the service of the year 1815,• oliservimz, that it was not necessary fur him to Auer into any tit . tail, as the war with Atotrica would require that the trambers •thould be kept up. It was :as° particularly desirable that the commerce of the country ahooki Le - protected, the enemy's ships be annoyed, aiid there lore t' , ,e Vote would be for 70,009 ?nett. The other Votes which would follow related to.k..opiirt,, , , the fleet afloat. He then moved,—" That 70 vi i 0 men be granted for the service of the. year 1;415, including 15,(44) Royal Marines.—Also that a sum of .(,8! 5,250 be granted tor wages, at the rate cf. e!. 15s. Gd. per man per nrinth, lor the said thrum months."—On the quest;on being pear, Mr. PONSON BY - expressed his sin prise that Mi nisters had not given a satisfactory statein;•nt to the House, upon the general finances of the erniittry. He: also desired to know why they had been called .firr ; early . together? If he were to conjecture, the' want of money was the reasln. He hail read the Speech eveni the Throne with attention, but he confessed that he was not ingenious enrtt . ,;ll to find out the canoe of tae early meeting. To deny tile Vote of Supply seesuctis peculiarly harsh, but lie must refuse to give his assetrtr to any Vote for the public service, until the Mini.ters had declared the rea3on. Some extraordinary pro ceedings had lately taken place between the Chaheel for of the Exchequer and what was c died $$ the mi. Med haerest," witch required (it the vehicles (tom which he gathered his informatLn were cot er..• ) . sotrae explanation. lie had also seen in the sante vehicles, the Newspapers, r - nt;ments proceeding from a Citi. a !man in the Chair (Sir C. Price) at a Meeting nt Wet Ifirit*; tretioni Maje;ty's $$ the f:Cst aud Wisest G riernment • Which the country • had ever known," and ytt that : Gentleman had deel ired, th this best and wisest Othretnntent was pursuing men. sues most destruetiveto the eelznmorce ttf the eourtry. He tvisherl, therefore, some statement from 'Emit Otte of . the Muti,ters in respect to the tinarves. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that there. never was a more eirisplett decla ration of the cause t'w calling Parliament together, than the Speech fioni the Throne contained. As to, a financial St3'..ernnt, if the Right Honourable Grp tlem.l3 required a foil stateimnt, it crould not now be made, as the accounts w. re not all made op.-- He (the Chancellor (4 the EsLheqiiel ) had no obj:c tion, ii.ot‘ever, to answer any cluebtion now, a!thniugh a few dal . s would hi ing the whole of tie acconnts be. 1.7 e the House. There was nothing of an alarming kind in the state of the finances—nothing even to create suspicion. As to the Loan—a false. rumour bad gone, abroad upon the subject, which he had eon tra&r.ted through the Governor and Deputy Corer-, ?fur of the tank of Etteaud ; who had, lie bel.i. vett, communicated his rate.sage . -tt, the Gentlemen c0n.. 1 cerned in the Lean. - -There was no idea on the past of Government of propoin.7 a Loan, err of funding the outstanding Exchequer 111 F. All that would be proposed were the ordinary Vides of the annual tascs —the renewal of some Etc:lir:per Bills not paid (:i. Three millions had been provided for in the last Ses sion out cf fifteen millions, and the remaining twelve would in this manner be provided for. • The Right HtintitivableGentleistan had alluded to the Bonding or Vi'arettonsing System—that system, as the House be*, was estAblished in Isi3. A general Ware housing Act was then passed, under which a v iriety ofyonsts; some of which were subj?ct to high duties, w e i r allowed to be warehoused upon giving bond for the payment of those ditties, nithin eighteen months. In 1809, when the continental system of the enemy was in its fullest effect, Parliament allowed the Lords of the Treasury to afford relief to the merchants by extemiing the time for bonding their goods to a period of six months longer. At that time, the goods of British merchants were excluded from the ports of tile Continent. From time to time this indulgence I was extended until the last year, when, after a succes sion of glorious results to the arms of the Allies, the ports were opened, and we found a market'. Then the Lords of the Treasury thought it was time to resort the system . to its former and original regularity. The Rie,!,t H•at- Gentleman read the orders issued in conse quence from the Treasury, the lest of which permitted, upon the usual representation, the goods to continue in r...ie warehouses till the 30th October, but no longer. IVl;en the Gentlemen waited on Lord Liverpool and himeelf, some said they had not heard of the last order —others admitted that it had been issued, but said they thought,'Government would not have acted upon it. Tliere were several interviews, but no one case. of particular hardship was stated at the meeting. With repect to the goads necessary to be warehoused, coffee was excluded from the markets of the Conti: n e ut. an d tiamrfore the Merchants had been allowed to bond that article for twelve months : P eruv i a n Bark and Aara la were in the same predicament.— Now t with respect to the • hardihip of the rase, she. • gOodil Witelted:ed . were liable to ti • liefiattel Je1,g00,009 fordinies. Indulgencies had bten gya4sel s.st onliane-Itic ana, in fact, the whole of the dritieS 'which (supposing GovernMent persevered in transit. tsu the payment) would amount to about .€3cr,0091. Tfiiir 4.itie the violent and harsh pro:.eediog :,d'opted towardi the , Merchants. Ent; of that bum only £75,000 was to he paid down, the rest to be paid by instalments in four months. In saying this, he did not mein to deny the value of the warehousing Sys. tem to the country, hut the Revenue Officers were of opinion that it was open to great abuses. The accounts of the revenue, in respect to this system. were very voluorinsars. The Excise accounts of the duties exceeded 10(1;) folio volumes ! Consequently great confusion must arise in kecpintr, theic accounts. He had no objection to exend the Bonding System, but first the pre4nt system must he wound up. Mr. BARING sand, that the system was one of the greatest rnornean to the commerce of the country, 'rue Right Hon. Gentleman had certainly put the question •on its fair ground; in admitting its value, and he 11.1 d said it was his intention to introduce a new one, bin the first must be broke up. He (Mr. Daring) had• eaMplain on the part of the Mer. chat:., that he had iteVeir given the fair explanati:in he had not condeltiendeetilrthis nirht to give it,and it would not be till thgtfdtrow, through the public prints, ;hat they weadd know it. The Merchants had for own hours tried ell their eloquence to persuade the Right lion. Gentleman that it would be ruinous to . :.teak it.op,Arast the only reply - they could obtain was, that they should have an answer: The next morning they got an answer, which was, that th:• tolii‘t be p tid-on such a day. The Merchar.tt. li id reason to sittipose, that as they had been indulged year afier year, from 1803, some little exten.-iion would now he grtnted them ; but they Must send their goods out of the country, when Government' knew tf eyer. wail a dilicrtitlty in finding a market. The 13onding System was simply this, that on goods p l ing duty i drawback was allowed on exportat'on ; bat if "goods were lodged in the ting's warehouses, ley rerintitred; and only paid duties if intersded for home consumption. ' What he recommended was, that . Metchaial should be allowed to import °leir goods, and warehouse them, and that the. Oili• erry of the Customs should Only notiee those goods intended. Vr'hoine toosomption. That was, in fact... the emit 61 l3an linr Syi'aem which the merchants de. iircd. •Tney had orild the Right Hon. Gentleman,. drat they were *ready to setae any cf:".ficiencies, or Ake any arrangement on his own trims ; but . the (tight lion. Gentleman would not he satisfied with. Ottt breaking up the system altogether. The come isinhe is; that the Merchants Must send abroad ten years' innartnption. Such was their situation, that aakssahese elaims were attended to, he should feel' it his duty to move for a Committee to i noire into the subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman had talked .if a thousandfoliti volumes; the truth was, he had listened too math to' the Revenue Boards, and too iirtle to the merchants. He could assure the House that there was no consaMption for the great matt of g oods irbported. The Right 'Hon: •Gentleman had 'salted of starting afresh: to that he had no obj , ction, if he meant to settle the question amicably. It was a 'fact, that the confidence of foreigners in our corn. Lthertial relations was +mach . shaken, Forme! ty, by :short)d Naves:rid to any foreign:c, if the cprextinn had been put-to him (Mr. Baring) that our commercial system was the wisest of any knowu system ; but now he could not say so, for same new whim nrsiAlit come across Ministers within the next six moothi. The Hon. Gentleman wished to know what objection Go. vcrnment could possibly have to taking a tomer of the goods now under hond, and allow them to pay dmieifor "those 4101 y intended fur home consumption. Mr. B .iiogcor.cluded With stating, that he would scale. for the new system of the Right Hon. Gentleman b-fore he moved for :t Committee. Mr. VRO'II'HEROE sAitt, the Honourable Gen tleman uho h 4 just . .sat down had certainly favonred the Howie with a very lifcid account of the.bonJed system ; hut he did not think he hid treated the Right Hon. Gentlym•in With•the utmnst eandnur, When he used Vie expression, that it ivas the Right Hon. Gen. tlenun's . intention to break up the bonded system. Having seen so much I itelY in the public prints on this subject, he had Wen rather in expectation of re ceiving some instructiont from his constituents on the ribjecr ; but they had not. even sent him it - single ob. servation on it, nor could lie find that in any of the oui.potts the merchants viewed 'the subject in the same light hts those of Lnndnii seemed to do. The — CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, it was impassible to persuade the Gentlemeri who waited upon him to he satisfied with what they called " a partial redress." • In respect to the foreign ports, the restriction at Marseilles was much stronger than in this country. Here the bonding system was only for the year. As to the operation of the ten years consumption, the orders applied principally to three exciseable articles—tobacco, wines, and 'spirits ; the! operation in French wines would be abnu: a 30th part. On others, the consumption of six weeks, about one s ighth ; on brandies one-60th ; on Geneva one.3oth ; on rum about the (220. h part, and yet the lion. Gen tleman talked of a ten years consumption. Mr. SHAW, in allusion to the loan, recommended some offical communication in fcture in that respect, as from the late private one, advantage had been taken of the circumstance, and the fends in a short time experienced an advance of between tour and live per cent. Mr. BARING, in explanation, stated, that in al luding to the consumption of ten years, he meant there were certain atticles not consumed by the coun try at all. Mr. TIE RNEY rose to state, that as the question was likely to be soon under discussion again, he would not trouble the House at any considerable length. He commented briefly upon the Bonded System, and proceeded to condemn the communica tion which the Right Honourable Gentleman oppo site, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) felt it his duty to make with reference to the loan rumour.— (Hear, hear.) —The consequences would be ex tremely unpleasant, if, upon every occasion when rumour canvassed the financial measures of the Mi nister. he ,WAS himself to come forward, and tender official explanation to the public. When done in one ease, it would be expected in another, and the pre cadent would lead to the most dangerous results.--- , He fully acquitted the Chanuellor of the Exchequer, to the purity of whose motives• ha had at alll times _ ~ ~~:•, gittiralefitt; 'at :Ay blitz* itthich 1 0"liti1Kr. 'meek of mtitirt4 the cntnnittniesttlon, it itzrsr;•l Irats ritmdu; prevailed of in intenJeci Christian t tie funds went down. Whe! the IT). pert ursti . • declared without fnun.fatinrri ;bey aeliii• etvoirer4. The fact was plain, howeVer; that Uri Civy had some little idea of the finincial . stve of the 'couirris and it 1145 plain, that e ien after such Large grants to the Government, th"y plaited .no very efiensive confidence in the pledge (I the Mir nister. They were right in the fact of his wanting mini, but they erred In hitting upon !t ( Hear, mar.)—lt appeared in Vain for his Right :on. Friend (Mr. Ponsntiby) to inclu;re tite reasons for the early call for Parliament, with a v'ew of seeking minutes into existir. frairr. The night Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of thb Exclieqtr.a remained mute ; but rviw the reaitin was chitin:is : the present vote explained it, and fortified surmises.- (Nlr. Tierney) had nti wn.h to embarrass the public sertice—qni•e the re verse. He merely wanted to know why money WM wanted now, after the grants so late as last July ? Was not that entitled to a reply ? Did the :•linlstxr mean to say--4 , T want money for purposes nl i.a I 1.1” not choose to explain, and vl-en you Vote it' yrni may go about your business ?"—Tliis was the svennil Session when such conduct had been pursued. The • first time the House felt Cue awful s:tilacon of tke country, and h:id armed Ministers with the Man ex tended means of Contending with a delivra*eneitiy I the times were nose alter:d, the necessity had vanished; rejOkingi "friefthletiltintivicestplsiee, and the public • were entitled in enli•for every eiplanatien inginritt4 with the expendituie they were to fix called oral to Meet. This decision became peculistly thanilest. b (*ban; ceflor of the Exchequer called fop nti•ltiari k he had yet heavy arrears to discharge, their amount he with. held from Parliament mail the It erinent be demanded supplies, and even then without . InfOftbitian s and by this proceeding erpo!ed himself to 'the aktarsatiod of having conceuled faces which he was bound to &to choice—( Hear, Mfr.) The operation of . edth , rice could only deteriorate public confidence--.it Itad done so, and the result was visible. It was time' to arrest its source ; so impics ied was he witlf thin feeling, that he would not vote for a shilling the items up to the January demands fut. the (Alit: .service. He implored th e H ni c e t o NUS! before Oct blindly advanced in an ungwirdtd dispnial Of did • money of their constituents : to vote no more until sa- • ticfactory information preceded the grant: If they' neglected this.admo &ion the eensequelice would be the money would be wrung trod) the people, and Parliament would be dismissed until February per. • haps—(liter.) AU'lhnse 'alarms of invasi ;n were now done away—all those unjust aspersions 811411 attached to men who il.ffered with the (Jilting Co. vernment, wete at an end—and it becathe tae Hon‘c of Commons to express its sentiments, as tue legi. timate guardian of the puhlic purse—(Hear, hear.) He felt it his dirty to impress upon thlm, and not without :folly inquiring into the question Itself, the declining nature rf the finances of the country. HO affirmed, without the fear of contradiction, that not 4 moment was to he lost in probing the state of the sources of the nation, and of applying an imm..:JiaLe remedy to the perils which encompissid them. A ,1 pet was necessary. wit'anut an hour's delay. upon the total income expenditure, not only for the pia: pose of sliewing by whrt ce:enemy (and even . word is hardly expressive enotOi for the called for retrenchment) a saving can be eirectee., but of Asti ascertaining and defining the lirsi s o( a .I'.:ace- Establishmenf. ( Hear.) For five years he had urged this revision to tita House—it read not h.ent attended to ; and m.O k 11 ,, w they h. d proceeded...- In the year 1141 t.: ,e Army Extraordin,, r i es were stated at R 1,7.50,000; —the next ye..r a scum o f 4'3'27,000 was cAlled far to make up a deficit ;- a 1811, £3,2, - )0,000 was their stated amount; the year after a deficit of ‘2,503/00 was called tor. Tho hollowing years five millions was the calculation, and four millions it; addition was subsequently necessary to meet the.claims. In the . list year ten Millions h been voted, and there no w appeared a sithrue of n 0...! millions. (Hear.) —Cn;uld su:li a system last ? and yet in the Prince Regent's Speech the revenues were represented as in a flourishing state I The Ministers had taken the responsiblity of putting into the mouth! of the Sovereign an asvrtion quite at variance with the fact. He (Mr. Tierney) affi-med, the reventica were in a miserable condition.—(Hear.)—Twenty years ago a revenue of 20 millions might be stated as a flourishing standard. Such a sum was now any thing but flourishing. Of what use were great receiptsi if the demands were in proportion greater ?—(Hear.) Here Mr. Tierney begged leave to read an abstract of a statement which he had himself prepared upon the subject of our financial condition. In the first place, he assumed that twenty millions would be suf. hicient to wipe off the war expenditure up to the first 01 January next, including the American war•eXpenseg . hch he assumed would terminate within the same' • period. The amount of Income re ce ip ts o f Great Bri4 tam, taking the receipts of January as the standard; including taxes, increase of the Sinking Fund, &c. amounted, alter the usual deduct io:ts, to, 10,344006: This sum, together with the Customs arid Excise re. • ceipts, amounted to a sum total of a€ 46,367,00 against this charge, including the deficit of the Iriub debt, and Various other reductions, we had to place :i debit of 5e46,912,000 ; the balance, therefore, remain. ' ing for our peace establishment, was solely £65,000. The Right Honourable Gentler:lin entered into an elaborate detail cf the various items upon which his. calculation was founded, and clearly shewed that the stuns were all taken in the most reduced shape, as bearing upon the public expense, and much uni+er what the real issue would be which the public wou/1 ultimately be called to defray. He submitted whether a peace establishment of sixty-five thou. sand pounds was not calculated to appal any man conversant with the national wealth—and where was the remainder to be procured ? What resources • remained untouched t The plan of last year, namely, the draft upon the Sinking Fund, had certainly saved fresh Taxes, but it had done considerable mischief. —(llear, hear). —The Right Honourable Gentl eman next entered Into a statement. by which it appeared that the Sinking Fund was reduced 9?4,400,000, br the late appropriation, and that its effect must have greatly tended to the late fluctuation in the Publi c Funds. Front this it was dear that no Rather redue. tion of that pane could be attempted. What that was to be done? Aras,ooo wsutd feta their only item 1 1