Star. — London, England, 1817-03-01 00:00:00

extending protection to the Regent, and preventing the Seduction of the Soldiers. Sir F. BURDETT also thought it proper that the same protection should be extended to the person 01 the Prince Regent, as to that of the King ; but oiss acted to the innovations which were made. Lord FOLKSTONE thought that the leat that could be said of the Bill was, that it was unnecesa' sat y. All knew, that it any attempts had been made to seduce the soldiery. they had failed. The present measure would throw a slur upon them; for it would make it appear, that they were so liable to be se duced, that it was necessary that a little flirtink with them should be made punishable by law. He ap proved of the measure which applied to the safety of the Prince Regent; but with respect to the others, he lamented that we should think and act so diffe rently from our ancestors. Lord ossuLsToN also objected to innovations, and the fac,lity with %%Lich the powers demanded might be abused. Sir G. HEATHCOTE wished, that instead of appearing so jealous with regard to what was said to soldiers, mote should be entrusted tothe Civil Power. He should only give his consent to the measure which tended to place thz Prince Regent on the same tooting as his Majesty. The Report was then received, and the third read ing of the Bill fixed for Monday neat. Irwin RY Mr. H. ADDINGTON presented Returns of the Yeomanry and Voluntea Corps in Great Britain. He should take this opportunity of adverting to the statement of the Honourable Member for Montgome ryshire (Mr. C. W. Wynne) the other night, in which that Honourable Gentleman bad seemed to convey an imputation against that branch of the Go ss vernMent to which lie (Mr. H. Addington) belonged, that ft was not properly disposed to encourage the Yeomanry of the country. He was the more sur prised, as he and his Noble Relation were known to entertain the most exalted opinion of that villain.). tional description of force; of the zeal, promptness, alacrity, and public spirit with which they had at teaded the summons of the Civil Magistrates, and on many occasions protected the peace of the country. He had to state, that since the beginning of October, every effort had been made by the Home &etc toy of State to increase the Yeomanry in all parts of the country, especially those where the spirit of distur; bance prevailed.. He could appeal to several Hon. Members of the House to whom applications had been made on the.subject. For several months past it had been. not only under consideration, but deter. mined to revive part of the allowances which were formerly made for that service. He had sorely re gretted their reduction at the time when public eco• army had rendered it necessary. and he should be most happy to use his best efforts to have them restored , pC was convinced that on the Yeomanry. the commi. l i tntiooal forcelbf the country, its tranquillity might he future depend. Mr. C. W. WYNNE owned that orders had been issued for the Yeomanry to hold themselves, ready for service, either on the pillaging Act or constant duty, but that was to be at their own expense. No means were afforded them. He then alluded to the case at, a friend of his who had raised an additional troop, in one of the most disturbed towns, on a former occa sion, and Lad mad. an application to have three years allowance in advance, but had met with a - re. fusel, and bad consequently advanced the money out'ot his own pocket. He conceived that the yeo manry would have more effect in maintaining order that double the number of regular troops. He was glad that the allowances were to be renewed, other ivies it would be impussible to keep that connita. Waal force on foot. The encouragements to it had already been greatly diminished by the Acts of last Session, before which its members were ezempted from the horse dutand the militia ballot. (ot Norfolk) wished to guard against dm too considerable increase of that force, though he admitted that it was conuitutional., For forty yeas be bad sot changed his opinions, and should carry diem down to his grave. As the Representative of a great ennui'', sad as a Naas who had nothing . to demand from either one side or the other of the Mouse, be should state his opinion that the Ministers oldie country meant nothing but to establish despo tism in England, if they could acctimplish their in tentions. Sir R. HERON thought the present allowances for the yeomanry quite .nacient, when the state of the finances of the countr was considered. After a few words from Sir GILIZAT HgATUCOTII, the-papers were ordered to lie on 'the table. Sir SAMUEL. ROMILLY moved for returns of the number of persons, with their different ages. coo. finkd in the House of Correction since the 17th of • . May last. Agreed to. Sir 8. ROMILLY then postponed the 2d readf of the Game Duty Bill till Tuesday sennight. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT presented petitions - for Reform from Loughborough. in Leicestershire, Stirling and its vicinity, Buddiegton, in Nottingb shire. and Kegeorth, in JLeienstersisire. Ordered• a lie on the tab*. LONDON MITION. Sir JAMES SHAW said that be held a petition which bad been agreed to this day in the Common Council. He had not been able to attend that meeting, but he was informed that it had been ,very numerous. The language of the petition was respect ful and proper. It Payed that the measure for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act sbouldnot lr • passed, and also resnoostrated.egaiost the other mea sores. Those had his concurrence—he thought that circumstances rendered them netessary. But with • regard to the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus, he considered that it was uncalled for by the necessities of the case. He then moved that ids, brought op. Mr. CALVERT had not been able to attend this day's meeting t hot agreed in all the-sentiments of the petitioners. tie thought the present measures totally uncalled for and unnecessary, depriving the people of their jolt rights and and unwarranted by the Report of the Secret Committee, or-what had fallen Irani Mbsisters themselves. Mr. CALCRA.Fr thought the speech of the He nritable Baronet be had preseated the peticios most vilsaW. That Honourable Baronet bad seen tbe terr4gaesob which bad been the occasion of the Sus pension' Bill—le Ind been one of those by whom that snob had been dispersed, and if the bessavideace had been wanted before the Secret Committee, none could have been better than that of the worthy Alder man. It war now the only one baffoie the House. He ofcongratulated the City London on its having a Representative who would thus come forwird, and after having witnessed those mighty enterprises em the Bank and Tower, would speak to their insignifi cance, and declate that it was unfit the constitutional bulwark and shield of the liberties of the subject should be suspended for one moment on their account. Mr. P. MOORE congratulated the House on the acquisition of evidence which superseded all the evi dence hitherto given. If Honourable Gentlemen would abide by their own senses, and not by the ill founded Report of the Secret Committee, they would come to the conclusion that that Report was a libel on the country, and an attempt to impose evidence upon them. He wished that every Member should bi called upon in his place to declare what was the state of the part of the country which he represented. If this were not done, the country was condemned unheard. If the House did its duty by its constitu- , ents, it wobld set aside the Report. Most petitions_ demanded the restoration of the rights of which the people had been deprived, but instead of doing that, the House proceeded, as often as it met, to deprive them of ocher rights. The Constitution rested on two great pillars, property and liberty. The whole property of the ctontry was now gone. It had been taken in taxes and wasted in wars, for the nefarious purpose of preventing reform. Now that the Mi nisterthad obtained all they could in point of money, they wished to take away the liberties of the country. It was a. foul conspiracy ag.tinst the people and the- State, for the purpose of establishing despotism. Tips question was, whether Englishmen were to reesl freemen, or to become a nation of slaves? Sir S. ROMILLY took the opportunity which ,this Petition presented, to rall upon the House to consider how large a portion otitis Majesty's subjects were prevented from expressing their alarm at the measure proposed. And they were those who would be most grievously affected, for the present 11111 would make the condition of the people in Scotland still more miserable than that of the English. He believed, and if he were wrong he'should wish to be' set tight, that the Suspension Bill of 1791 made no difference whatever between England and Scotland., He had no idea that a difference had been made un til the Bill had been printed. In England, by the Bill as it now stood, if a man were committed to ilison on a warrant signed by one Minister of State or six Privy Councillors, he could not.be brought to ' trial without their consent. Ia &inland, any one committed on a charge of high treason by any subor dinate Magistrate, even a Sheriff's substitute, must 'remain in confinement, without tiial, unless he ob tain the consent of six Privy Councillors. He did not believe that the Honourable Members in that House who represented Scotland, had any notion of the manner in which. they were required to vote away the liberties of their country. Mr. M. A._TAYLOR said, that no argument was advanced to refute those of his Honourable and Learned Friend. Even the Lord Advocate far Scotland bad not ventured to say that he was wrong. He was anxious to know on what grounds such a clause could be justified. The LORD ADVOCATE of- SCOTLAND, said, that it was competent for any Member .to pt questions on the subject, but that he did not think I himself bound to answer them until the Bill should be regularly before the House. Mr. BROUt;HAM agreed with the Learned Lord that it was competent for any Honourable , Gentleman to avail himself of the bringing up of petitions to put a question ; but the House could int longer hAve any doubt on the subject, for it was now ascertained, by the first Law Officer in Scotland, that high authority newly imported into the .House. But it was a right which bad been pretty frequently ex ercised before; a right to which the country had owed its relief from sonic of the worst measures which the House had ever wrung from a reluctant Government, and one to which, with the blessing of GP, he trusted still greater imptovements to the Constitution of the country would be due—(Near). ' —As to the reason why no answer was given to his Learned Friend, it could easily be guessed. The ATTORNEY-GENERAL had understood theFoble and Learned Lord to admit, that it - was regular for Honourable Members to put questions, but that as the Bill would soon be under the regular consideration of the House, he thought it would at: ford him a better opportunity for giving any ettpb., nation which be might have to submit. • Mr. MADOCKS hoped, as a petition was am presented from the City of London against the See- I pension of the Habeas Corpus Act. and one had yesterday been presented from Nottingham, that time would be given for his Constituents to send a Petition from Boston. Hg hoped time would be given for the whole country to petitios. He hoped the House would interpose to coripel Ministers to post pone the third reading for a week or ten days (Near, hear)—to allow a fuller attendance of Mem bers, and to afford the other half of the House, now absent, most of them probably in the country, to attend ia'tbeir places, and report on the several dis tricts they reside in pr represent, as to the actual con dition of the people. as to the tendency of their sen timents, and. on the state and tranquillity of the country—(Hear, hear).— He would wish also the people themselves to state in their petitions their sen.' tintents on this momentous period, and offer evidence in their own favour, to meet the .heavy charges against .them in the Report-4Am, hear). —Did Ministers intend, and would the House stiffer the measure to be precipitated in this manner, to prevent the people from petitioning ? Would the House al low the people to petition oa a turnpike-rokd, that leads to the county town, and prohibit them from petitioning on a measure t hat leads to the county jail —(Hear, hear ) —and that too on suspicion—(kisar. hear.) Where is the road by which they are to retain? Not through the avenues of justice, for they are closed, and the trial by jury denied them. And wbett ? Who can predict the duration of their du rano. 1 Who can fosse the numberless pretences which the ingenuity .of tottering power may invent for tits continuanee 1..-(Her,liear).—Tbe descent to the duageoos in the Tower is easy and ceetain--the return difficult and uncsetain-oi ---- M Fasph demmees tirrefara Vides: serraiges meta ad sun., P bor. bo; goo est. —(llseret. v).. The Hams* Member hoped his constituents at Boston would hate Crap to peei:ion to preserve this sacred hulw.trk of the people's riximr, for which most Gentlemen expressed a superstitioni veneration. The suspension of it would be the terror of the innecent, wittunit being an adequate defence against the guilty—(Hoer, hear). General FERGUSSON also wished that time should he allowed for petitioning. The CHANCELLOR of the •EXCI - lEQUFR read part of the Bill id Mk, to show that Cie Leese relative to Scotland was not a new one, but had been copied from it. Sir S. ROMlLLYreminded the Right Hon. Gen. tleman, that he begged to be cm reeled if Ile was wrong. Dist the important question was not whether the clause existed in the Bill of 1791 or not, but whether any difference ought to be made between the people of Scotland and of England ? Mr. PONSONBY thought it desirable that the Learned Lord should condescend to explain what the Clause meant. It was imps-mat that the Hon. Grc tlemen who supported, should at least undeistand it. Mr. B. BATHURST said, that whatever might be the merits or demerits of the Clause, there was no one present to answer for them, as it bad stood in other bills shich had passed the scrutiny of as great acuteness and talents as the House could now bgast. The Petition was then read, and laid on the table. LIVERPOOL PETITION. Mr. BROUGHANI held in his hands another proof of the great advantage which the country would derive from any time which the Home might allow: Although but a single half day had been given to the inhabitants of /.iverpool, they had expreied their opinion in the most respectful but earnest manner in the petition which he should beg leave to present. When be looked at the names by which it was signed, he found that they were those of the must respectable, wealthy, and independent inhabitants of that great city. He might, indeed, appeal to the Honourable Member who represented it, for the truth of what he asserted. The petition exprrssed no opinion on the Report of the Secret Committee, but stated that the petitioners had reason to suspect that the charges contained in it had been made by designing indivi duals, who had taken that opportunity of insinuating matters against their neighbours, as in 179/, which they ha& no doubt facts'would disprove. Mr. COKE took the opportunity of saying a few words respecting the imputations which the Report, upon- which the Bill is progress through the House was founded, had can upon certain clubs esta blished in different parts of the kingdom, upon prin• ciples which could not truly be described as subver sive of the Cobstitution. Amongst others, the Nor ' with Union Club had found itself included amongst ' those which the Committee of the House of Lords had stigmatised in its Report. He had this day re ceived a letter from Mr. Taylor, of Norwich, one of the principal members of tFe Union Club there—a I gentleman of Aona he might say that he was likely to be one of thwTery last men in the kingdom who would eugsge in any project against the Constitution or the Laws, and there was no man who knew the Taylors. of Norwich, who would not say that they were ono of the most respectable families in the king dom. With the permission of the House, he then read the letter, which stated, that by a passage in the Report of the Secret Committee of the Meuse of L9tdi, the Union Society of Norwich found itself grossly misrepresented—that it was with - the utmost astonishment that that Society had found it said that it was affiliated and associated with another society of the , same name in I.ondon, and with others, the aim and object of which were the total subversion of the Constitution ; that the Union Society of Norwich was bound by no secret oaths; that it held no mid night meetings at which the Scriptures were profaned or ridiculed; that it had not caused arms to be pur chased fur the purpose of enforcing its doctrines ; that it had no correspondence it connexion with any other society whatever; that. it had nothing to do with any traitors; that the writer pledged himself, that at least as far as related to the Union_Society of Norwich, the Committee had been completely de- 1 mitred, sad that he was ready to furnish the Mem lbers of the Administration or the House with any proofs which might be required to corroborate his statement." The Honourable Gentleman then said, tit he thought the statement in this letter deserved implicit credit. If time were allowei he had no doubt that many more statements of the same kind would be received from different parts of she country —and even from what had already appeared, the 1 1 Report of the Committee was more and more weak ened every day. Indeed, nothing could surprise hint More than the unanimity of the Committee. Mr. W. SMITH rose for the purpose of corrobo , rating by his testimony all that had been said by the Honourable Gentleman who spoke last, as to there. spectability of the qbarter from which he had recei- ITed the letter that bad been read to the House. He had himself also received a letter to the very same purport. 'Nothing could exceed his surprise at find ling in the Report alluded to any imputation against the Union Society, the objects of which were well known to be oft he most harmless kind, and its views solely to proinot- the cause of Constitutional reform. Mr. B. BATHURST observed, that as the Union Societies were not mentioned in the Report of this House, all that had been now said respecting them did not apply to any thing done, or intended to be done, by the House. The Committee of this House did not conceive that there was any thing iarticu larly mischievous in the Union Society of Norwich. Mr. HARVEY rose for the purpose of saying that he knew Mr. Edward Taylor, of Norwich, who signed the letter which had been read by the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Coke) to be a most respectable man, who, though he might differ in opinion from him (Mr. Harvey) on political subjects, yet he was sure would be one of the last men to attempt, by mean of atiy club or otherwise, to overturn the constitution. Mr. TIERNEY said, that he had been prevented from attending the Secret Committee at its last sit ting, otherwise be would certainly have peptised, that before they presented their Report to the House, they should bare communicated with the Committee of the other House, and compared the Reports and evidence. As it was, every thing that had come out with respect to the Report of the Lords' Committee, furnished the strongest argument foe delaying the now in progress ; for it the evidence was offered pnrptlse of proving that there was a mistake in the ItepOst of the C,onnpittets of- the House ol Lords, Mt was surely-an argument for delay, till it' sl!sattli he seen:ihether there was any rnictake ;, Report of ihe o.mmittee of this House. It was Ab • all things necess:lry, in a case of the present kit t , that it should he ascertained whether there were A' mistakes, and of what kind. If it had all tatly b tv: discovered that a mistake had been made in one in. stance, ten n r •re might be considered as inchitlO t :- e sw p-pin t acc!!sation contained in the Repoli el. hided tn. The House cnnid not reasonably p•.ss;u,.h a Nil the face of such a mistake. Eir JAMES MACKINTOSH :peke thee ly i n the highest terms as to the respectabilty of the pet. .or from whom the letter came which had been read. Mr. JOHN SMITH said, that the Report cnn. tained en imputation of the most serious kind avinst that part of the country which he had the lionotir to represent. It would therefore be extremely strang e it time was not allowed for an opportunity to s t ew . whether such an imputation was true or not. He led no doubt, that it the N,al for suspending the Haie„.., Corpus Act were not 4turried through the. Horse, ;,, should have to present to the Douse, a Petitiee hem several thousand persons against that Bail. H e h a d no intention of cesting any imputation against 11. e Members of the Committee, but when he at called upon as a Member of Parliament, to agree to a meat. sure whielt was to suspend-the liberties of the people England, he could net ceinscientmesly agree to it merely on the Report, nor froze any centicience in those who framed it. Much had been said about ;he Speacearee They had been represented as a nee mesons and dangerous body of men, whose princi. pies were widely disseminated. It so happened that he, as a Member of what wakcalled the Spital4e/ds Committee, had an opportunity of examining Sc:, closely the condition and habits of the lower classes in the eastern part of the metropolis, where h e h a d witnessed scenes Of the most afflicting kind. He had. during his inquiries, frequently asked these unfotitt nate victims of the distresses of the times ; but he l ea d not met with one of them who profes ed the Spencein doctrine!, nor who had even beard of them, except through the newspapers, and when they had heard of them, so far, even under their excessive distress, from adopting these wild doctrines, they universally treated them with derision. Upon the whole, he really ciuld not give credit to . that part of the Report which re -1 presented these principles as so snidely ditrasel ; and he could not help thinking that all that was said abler the Spencean system (to use a vulgar expression) was merely a humbug—(4 lough.) As to the proceedings on the 2d of December last, no man could think them more criminal than himself ; he thought the it dividuale concerned were guilty of high treason. Let then he could not think that there was any serious danger to be apprehended from an insurrection which broke out at twelve o'clock in the day. Tile Report of the Committee might be right as to some indivi duals, but he denied that it was true, as applied to eny large body of the people, althouh in fact, it bel ed the se! ole people of England, for it was in such general terms that it might apply to every put of the kingdom. He had lately been abroad, and clurire conversation in a company of foreigners, conceron , the British Constitution, lie had happened te !nice some remat ks as to the liberty of the subject, when a foreign Gentlemen ebsetved, that the hbe:tj of :!7e ' subject in Etrzlar :I was not so great as was talice since it could not he den ,, d that the Mesister co u go clown to the House of Commons when he please!, and induce it to steesend the leleheas Corpus Act—• her, from the O p t/ 'union. To this he (Mr. Smith) had replied, that n. Minister could do se in any case in which there was net an obvious necessity, nor against the public opinion, or it would be by a very small majority. lie therefore hoped that :;:e decision of the House this niAin would Shel? that ES "pinion was cOrtect. Mr. LONG WELLESLEY said he diC:red very materially from the lion. Gentleman who spite la-t as to what was the general opinion in the cotrit:y concerning the Bill before the House, for he belictc.f that the public opinion was strongly in favour of tlet Bill. Th..t H .n. Gentleman had said, that aqiong the inhabitants of Spitaifields he had found ne ceans ; but the fact was, that none of those else pro , lessee: the Spencean principles would be to avow them, so that there was no good argument to be deduced from the lienourable Gentlemau% riesas to that pnitst. The CHAI4CELLOR of the EXCHrQNER reminded the House, that the question before it aa., whether the Petition should be brought up ? Lord COCI - IRANE said, he had a letter fr( , :n Mr. Chapman, a member of a Club for Parliamee hay Reform, at Loughborough, den} Ink :ce _charges against those Societies lit tiTe Reports ut ;Se Secret Committees—far from irreligii . .n being avow ed, many members were very religiuus n.tu. !lie took that occasion to ask the Lord Advocate, wl:e ther it was tree that the persons arrested is Scotlud were of the lowest ordets, with the exception schoolmaster and lawyer's clerk ? It was said, that it was a meeting of poor persons to obtain some pa rochial relief. He was confirmed in the belief tnat it was so, by a letter from Glasgow, dated so far back as Feb. 8, in which it was said, that at a meet ing in the neighbourhood of Glasgow, a dign;tat - y of the law, who received a pension from the pub•:t• had asserted that the Heritors were net binind assist {he poor. The Sheriff had decided, hocevtr, in favour cl t',e people, but the appeal was carlad to the Couat Of Session to teach them patience. 'I ear letter was signed J. McArthur, which was the name of the Gentkman who had transmitted to hirn ule Petition from Glasgow. The Petition was then brought up and mid: Kr. BROUGHAM said he had no wish to pro tract this discussion, but he could not help oi-..sav;ogr with reference to what had been said by the he". Gentleman (Mr. Lorg Wellesley), that if the Lit. •e: hurried the Bill then in prigress they wo u ld rtnvl" prevent that Hon. Gentleman from brirEiii.:r T.: - many petitions in favour of sa popular a awab 9 t"— (A /okeh, and Hear, hear.) Indeed, it would seem froth wiraf had been s rid by that Hon. Gyula"' that Ministers had introduced this Bill not onto the purpose of preserving the tranquillity of the cecrl ,try against that very numerous society, the Sper ceans, who were nowhere to be found—(at but also fat' the purpose of gaining a hide of Oat pG: polarity which they may have lost by other measure , hear, from the Opposition.) The petition was then ordered to lie on the table. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT presented aped-'e•: from the Lcice:ter Hampden Club compiaining i~;i