Star. — London, England, 1817-06-04 00:00:00

be collected more to be relied upon th an the informa tion laid before the Committee. The Earl of LIVERPOOL denied that it bad been admitted by his Noble Friend that there were no precedents, his Noble Friend having merely suited that he was not aware of them—and upon this point be food contend, that there was no ground for the! plea of delay, there being no pretence for saying that the House was taken by surprise. He had given mike of the Message list Friday se'nnight ; that it was not brought down last Friday arose from an event that was not foreseen on the Friday preceding, in consequence it was postponed till this day. Thus, in point of tact, there was a longer notice given than bad ever before been the case with regard to a Mes sage ; and added to this, it should be recollected that it was distinctly contemplated at the time the Habeas Corpus Suspension Dill passed through Parliament, that the subject should again come under the censi• deration of Parliament in the course of the present Session. Undoubtedly it was only a strong sense of duty, connected with the most important considera tions of the public safety, that could have induced Ministers to advise the present message. With re gard to the hand-bill read by the Noble Earl, he as much as any man detested attempts made to inflame the base passions of the people, on whatever side they vete attempted, whether ii, support of Government of in opposition to it; and he trusted the case alluded to by the Noble L trl would be a lesson to others on whatever side of political opinion, not to resort to such means of it:flaming the public mind. As to the former Committee, it had been, perhaps, more fairly chosen (comprising Noble Lords thinking differently upon political subjects generally) than any oth,r Committee ever betore formed in Parliament, and the Members of it weir in their Report, which Report had, iu all its material points, been accurately confiirred. lie therefore saw no reason whatever for impeaching, in the slightest degree, that Report ; nor could he 'discover any solid reason w hy the House should now ri train, after so long a notice, from acting upon tl:c Message brought down this day, and referring the papers communicated with it to a s mils:. Committee. Earl GROSVENOR animadverted upon the ex. press disacquaintance of the Noble Mover with any precedent whatever for the course which his motion celled upon the House to adopt, and contended) that as that course was contrary to established practice, while it was wholly uncalled for by any valid plea of necessity, it might not to be acceded to. The danger, indeed, of agreeing to a departure from precedent in this case was die more d.ingerous, because such a de pardire would serve to create a precedent kr the fu tore, and of this precedent the worst use might be in.ide—for should a Minister hereafter AMC, noes taining a desire to carry arbitrary power to extreme, lie might avail !Orwell 0 this precedent to take the House by surprise, and without any warning, on a sadden press for the adoption of a measure subversive of the themes of the country. But while he thought the Noble Mover bound to show that there was some precedent for the procredilg which he now proposed, he would riot be understood so pertkaciously to adhere to precedent, as to resist any deviation that justice or necessity might appear to demand. lu this case, however, he could nut imagine any degree Of justification for departing from the established practice of the 1 - louse with respect to a Message from t e croon. Earl SI'ENCER observed, that as Ministers had given notice, ten days ago, of their intention to sub mit the motion under consideration, he would ecquit them ot any desire to take the klouse by surprise. The only question for the House to decide upon at present was, whether the Committee to which the Message from the Throne was to be referred, should be nominated this eveuing. or nn Thursday next And this, whatever it might appear to others, was, in his view. a question by no means of small impor tance, eapecially considering the subject of the Mes ses*, and the course taken in a former instance upon the same subject. It was admitted by the Noble Moyer, that he could adduce no precedent for the de parture from established practice, which he on this occasion proposed. He must differ Irons the Noble decretary, in recommending the Hi use to proceed with the utmost circumspection, caution. and deli beration, particularly looking to the coneequences to which this measure was likely to lead, considering (and lie wished not to give offence to the feelings of any individual) that it was meant to grant powers unknown to the Constitution—(Near, hear, hear.)...... He did not mean to say that those powers had been. or were likely to be abused; but dire necessity alone could warrant the creation of powers so liable to abuse, and so inconsistent with the constitutional liberties of this country (Hear, hear.) The House therefore should, upon ally proposition likely to lead to the establishment of those extraordinary powers, proceed with caution and reluctance. To the Address to the Regent, in reply to his Royal Highness's Mes sage, be was quite ready to agree; but he could not aecpkiesce in the propriety of nominating the Com. mittee to-day, contrary to the precedent in all similar cases; and his isbjectioo to this course was not dimi nished by the notice upon the Journals since Friday w'noight ; for the ground of his objection did not apply so much to the nomination of the Committee, asp the creation of a precedent so different from established usage It was known that lie entertained . - the highest respect for sonic of tt.e Members of the Committee then appointed, and those Members he had no occasion to name, as he generally agreed with their sentiments upon public questions. But with all the respect and'regard which he felt for those Noble Lordie'lle must say that the measures brought for ward is consequence of the Report of that Commit tee;did not appear to him to have been called for by any adequate necessity—( Hear, hear.) The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM argued strongly for the speedy appointment wf the Committer, and pelt that a peurialacie case of necessity sepeared, even from the Report ot the former Committee.. Lord HOLLAND conteided, that the actual question was One of simple precedent, and that no nettnity was made ont for a deviation from the esta blished course; he also expressed his earnest hope Oak the Committee would be sedulous in the inves tioatioo of every part of the evidence that was laid before them. The Marquis of BUCKINGHAM explained, that though be advocated a speedy appointment of a Cutuusittee, it did not follow that he Wished for the continuance of the present measures unless the neces- ' sky was made apparent. Viscount SIDMOUTH replied generally to the various objections which bad been adduced, and con cluded by moving an open nomination of the Com mittee, of which his Lordship read some of the names. He stated they were the same as constituted the for mer. with the exception of the Noble Duke alluded to (Bedford). It was proposed that in lieu of the Noble Duke, Earl TALBOT should be appointed. Lord HOLLAND did not think, that the Noble Lord being soon likely to be appointed to a very high office in the Sister bland, which was held to be free from those traitorous combinations, was a good rea son for his serving 'a kind of initiatory apprenticeship in the proposed Committee of Secrecy. He moved that the E4ll of Rosslyn's name be inserted in the list, in lieu of the Noble Earl's first proposed. The Earl of LIVERPOOL did not see how the probability of the Noble Earl's eventually going to fill a high office in Ireland shouli disqualify him for appointment to the Committee in question. It should be recollected that that Noble Earl had many years been Lord Lieutenant of one of the most wealthy. populous and trading counties in England (Stafford), and acquitted himself in that important office so as to give general satisfaction. The Question being put, the Earl of TALBOT was appointed a Member of the Committee in the room of his Grace of BILDIFORD. Earl GREY moved, that, in consequence of the variety and importance of his avocations, the name of the Lord Chancellor should be omitted from the list. and that of the Earl of Rossi yn inserted in lieu thereof. This, on the question, which was put with great good humour by the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, was inirnediAtay and decidedly negatived. On the motion of t h e Eat lof LIVERPOOL § the name of Viscount Sidmouth, which could not be regularly moved by himself, was inserted on the list of the Committee. Being then fully appointed, the Papers communi cated by the Prince Regent that evening v.ere ordered to be referred to the Committee of Secrecy, who were ordered to commence their sittings to-morrow. SERKSHIRE ►IAGISTItATES. Lord HOLLAND, on rising to move for copies of the Correspondence between the Magistrates of Berkshire and the Secretary of State for the Home Department, relative to visiting the Prisoners com mitted by his authority to Reading Gaol, alluded to the printed letters which had appeared, purporting to be this correspondence. It such questions had been so answered, the Noble Lord contended that the Noble Viscount had exceeded the authority with which he was invested, either by the law or his situation. He did rmt understand that the Noble Secretary ought to be, in any degree, the expounder to Magis trates of the established law of the country; but at all events, he would contend, that one of the answers he had given was strictly illegal, to prove which he should first read the Queries and Answers, and then the Clause in the Act of Parliament which gave the power to the Secretary of State to interfere with the regulations concerning State Prisoners : Q. May Magistrates genetally of the County of Beth, visit the State Prisoners in common with other Prisoners, which they art privileged to do, and ask questions, and enter into conversa tion with 'broil—A. No, except upon special reasons being as. signed, which must be submitted to and be judged of by the Secretary at State. Q. It State Prisoners may have a copy of Official Directions to Gauls:al—A. No. Q. If they ntay have free use of pen, ink, and paper, under crnain restrictions, as ordered by the Olficiel Directions?—A. lie Official Directions, which must be strictly observed. Q. If they may read the Public London .or Provincial News . papers, under certain restrictions ?—A No. Q. If they may have books to read from Circulating libraries? A. Such books as are approved of by the Visiting Magisttate. Q. U they may have wine, or strong beer, or ale, in limited quaiskies, at their own expense, or that of Government ?--A. What quantity is desired Q. It through the day they be confined In solitary cells, and at night in better apartments, suck can be procured by Magi« testes for them?—A. To be confined in such manner as has been usual, aed in such apartments as have bees heretofore allotted to State Prisoners. He dud not understand by what right it was, that the, Noble Secretary could give official directions for the management of these persons ; and in some eases be was of opinion, their management bed been ex tremely harsh ; particularly in refusing them copies of the informations, by which they could not know what could be adduced in their favour or what could not. The Noble Lord on the Woolsack had said, that even persons so confined enjoyed the common light of petitioning the Crown ; but how could they do this unless they knew what directions had been given to their jailor. In the Act of the 31st Geo. 111. (on which the Noble Speaker laid particular stress), it was positively laid down that the Magis trates were to visit such persons, or all prisoneros, without exception. But he had understood, that when a most respectable Magistrate bad applied at Reading Gaol for this purpose, a copy of the Noble Secretary's instructions had been shewn him, by which he was precluded from exercising the powers vested in him by law. The consequence was, that he wrote to the Noble Secretary who bad thought proper to do that which, he would contend, was most improper and unconstitutional, usurping an authority which she law did not allow him, and by hisjat preventing that from being done which the law had laid down as proper. He had written to all the Magistrates of the County, to give his own' interpretation of the Act, by which it appeared they were nut to rely on their own judgment, but to act contrary to these diem on their peril. His . object was, under all the circutn st.nces, to have the subject inquired into, in order to ascertain whether the Noble Secretary was or was not legally invested with such extraordinary powers, or whether he bad usurped them contrary to the ex press intent of the law ? He should therefore more for the production of copies of the Correspondence in question, and also that the sth section,of the Act of the 31st Geo. 111. be entered as read. Gn the question being put, Viscount SIDMOUTH declared, that in the per formance of his arduous duty, be had never sicced ar rogantly, but only in strict conformity to the law, and with the knowledge tkat he was responsible for the just discharge of every duty of his office. The Noble Lord imagined that the Act of the Slit of the Ki ng prevented the interposition of the Secretary of State, with respect to tht regulations to be adopted towards State Prisoners, but he would contend . that this Act in no degree interfered with, sick.regulations ; fur if the prerogative of the Crowu was ibtewled w be interfered with, there must 'have been a specie clause in the Act for that purpose. The Noble Lord on the Woolsack, whose opinion had been referred to, knew that the same conduct was riot pursued with respect to State Prisoners committed to close and safe custody, as towards others, the former being liable to the interference of the Secretary of State, if com mitted by him. The Noble Viscount referred to the practice in the times of Chief Justices Holt and Ray mond, and argned that it wad the same as at present, all jails being the King's Jails, and the Secretary of State having the power 'of interference with all persons committed to them by his warrant, under charges of offences against the State—(flear, hear.) With respect to the persons in question, he could take upon himself to assert that no more rigour had been exercised towards them than had been deemed necessary in every former instance. In his answers Ito the queries of the Magistrates, he contended that he had violated no law nor exercised any undue in fluence in the discharge of the duties of his office in connection with the prisoners in question. If, there. fore, the motion of the Noble Lord were to be agreed to, he would ask, whether it would not carry with it the appearance of blame incurred by his Majesty's Ministers, of which they were strictly innocent, and whether it would not stand as the received opinion of the House of an assumption on his part of au irnpro per authority ? Earl GREY considered the withholding of papers and books from the state prisoners to be an unneces sary degree of rigour and severity ; but this point was by no means so important as the question, whe ther the Noble Lord had, or had not, exceeded his powers, in preventing the Magistrates from visiting those prisoners ? The Act of Parliament that had been quoted, sheaved that it WAI absolutely impera. fife on the Magistrates. to visit all prisoners ; and, unless it could be 'hewn that the Noble . Secretary had been invested with a new power, his con duct, in prohibiting them from pertorming their duty, vials in direct contravention of that statute, and an assumption of undue authority—( Hear, hear.) Nuthinp had been stated to :hew, that since the pas. sing of the Act that had been quoted, any new pro vision had been made to alter it, arid nn usage could be adduced to prove the right of such interference, unless the Noble Secretary meant to say that the pre rogative of the Crown stood above an Act of Parlia ment. It was in vain to say that the jails were the King's jails ; and that the Secretary of State could prescribe such rules for the management of State Prisoners as be thought proper. He would assert that the prerogative extended to all. The Legislature had passed a law that there should be no abuse in the treatment of prisoners, and be did not know in what case abuse was to be guarded against, it not in that of State Prisoners ; but yet we were told that an Act of Parliament had nothing to do with the question of the prerogative of the Crown, and that the Secre tary of State has the power to confine certain priso ners in what way he pleases, and to prevent the Ma gistrates from having access to them. lie hoped, however, that the House would requite some better -authority than the opinion of the Law Officers of the - Crown on this subject. The question for their Lord ships' consideration was, whether the Royal Preroga tive went to the extent that was asserted ; and their constitutional jealousy for the liberty of the subject ought, on such an occasion, to be fully exerted. by fur some further information ? There was l a twins., facie case before the House, and enough had been stated to put the Noble Secretary in i situation to :hew that what he had done was oot in. 591141 4 ,181 with the law. On these grounds he should support the motion. The Earl of LIVERPOOL defended the conduct of his Noble Colleague, insisting that he had done nothing but u hat was in conformity with the practice on all former occasions. He would not argue the, question, whether this conduct was right or wrong but would contend, that he acted on the principle that the State prisoners were legally subjected to these regulations. As to the Act of the 31st of the Xing, it never could have been in the contemplation of the person who introduced it, that it should inter fere with prisoners of State. Such prisoners being committed under the warrant and authority of the Secretary of State, were subject to his interference and controul. This was always known to be his duty by the authority of Parliament, and was supported by all the Law Authorities under which it had since been acted on. The Earl of ROSSLYN supported the motion, contending, that the Noble Secretary had assumed to himself the power of dispensing with the law in regard to the Prisoners of State, and that there was neither practice, example, nor authority, to apply to the case before the House. The LORD CHANCELLOR did not rise to give any opinidn on the case, which he thought would nut be convenieut with justice in the present stage, It was a large and strait subject to be considered. In point of law, every gaol in the kingdom was the King's gaol, and in the years 1793 and 1791, there was certainly not a Lawyer in the kingdom who would have denied the privilege of the Puvy Council or thiSecritary of State of giving particular instruc tions fur the regulation of State Prisoners. It was a question of vast importance, and if he had had the least notice of it, he would have come prepared with proper authorities for its exposition. It was certainly a grave question, whether the prerogative of the Crown was taken away by au Act of l'arliament ? fie objected to the motion tar the eurrespotulence, because he thought it much better to consider whe ther the Act of the Slat of the King had taken away the prerogative of the Crows or hot'? Eall SPENCER:had waited with' much anxiety to hear on What ground the Noble Viscount hid as sumed the authority in question, but he had not beard one answer of any kind• that was satisfactory to his ' mind. There was nethin4 in .tbe Act•that regarded the treatmect of State Prisoners. He•agreed with the Noble Lord who.spoka last,• that the:subjed was of very great importance,• and therefore it ought to ire inquired into. With. pis view, he • thought -the consideration of it. ought tribe sdjoarned to sonic fu..• tote day, that it might be seen whether there were such authorities its the Noble Leid.h a d i nt i ma t e d bis ability to bring f o r wa rd. On these grounds he should move, es an amendment, that thefarther considera tion-of the question be adjourn etto Monday next. • Lord HOLLAND gayetistordiel support-te the amendment. Ia reply to.thengurmats of the Noble Lords-who bad spoken against the motion, he 404. k 4. view of the different points tweed apainst it, and Iti the cour , e of his observations, which embriced molt of what he had previously said, fie insl'sred t h at ~,c t one word had dropped which had invalidated his cp. nions, or taken away the force or construction of th e Act he had quoted. it was proper to ascert.iin the, the. Noble Lord had authority to sAy to the M A . gistrates, in the teeth of that Act, 1‘ You hal I not visit the Prisoners of State." The questions were then put on t'e Arnakbrent and the original Motion, and both we. nevured without a division. Adjourned till Thunki. HOUSE OF COMMONS. At twenty minutes after three, the new Src,, ce% took his seat at the table. In about minutes, .44, Deputy Usher of the Black Rod tummuned th e House to attend in the Hou:e ot Pecr , . theee w h eat the ;toys! Commission read, cove:ye:hag certain Commissioners to communicate the approbation by the Crown of the person whom the Hotue ot Corn mons bad elected to the Cha:r. The Snavcit ac cordingly went forth, attended by a vcry ct:o s id era bl e number of Members.—:her the ptoctelings nu the House of Peers, see the Lords' geport.l Upon his return, the SPEAIiE R addressed Hie House, in nearly the following worJa " I am to acquaint the House :hat this House his been into the House of Peers, where certain Lords Commissioners, authorized thereunto by his Royal Highness . the Prince Regent, have expressed theca. ciuus approbation of his Royal Highness -of my elec. Lion as Speaker. Perhaps the House will permit tae on this occasion again to repeat my unfeigned grab. tude for the high distinction and great confidence which they have been pleased to beltow upon me, by appointing me to this eminent station. lam per fectly conscious that on many occasions I steal! rind it necessary to have recourse to the assistance and in. dulgence of the I louse; but I am also conscious, that so long as the House shall be satisfies that I use eve:) , exertion diligently and faithlu!ly to discharge the arduous and important duties of this Chair, that appeals to their indulgence and support will never be made in vain—(llearatrar.) 1 must likeu lee entreat every assistance from the House in the support of its authority and the maintenance of its undoubted rights and privileges—rights at:d privileges no less valuable to all the subjects of this realm, than essen. tial to the very existence of this House—(Hear, hes t .) Having said thus much, perhaps the House will noir suffer me to suggest that there are many dropFeJ Orders and Notices of Motions which it may be the pleasure and convenience. of the House iorthivitn to dispose of." BREACH OP PRIVILFM The Hon. Mr. BENNETT, Chairman of the Po ' lice Committee, complained of a publication of their first Report made this Session, previously to its having got into the hands of any one Member of the Hark. (Near, hear.) The publication was made in a pap-r of last Sunday. How the Report had been got pos session of he could not tell; but none of the Mem bers had yet got 4 copy of it. It was not even now ready for delivery. He did not mention the circum stance to prefer any formal complaint at the pretet.t moment, but only to shew how the confidence or :le House had been used by those whose duty it -.vas :o preserve from public circulation their documents P'd proceedings, at least till they bad got into tie ha Ls of the Members—(Near, hear.) EXTENTS IN AID. On the Motion that the Extents ia 'A id Bill be -e..1 a second time on Thursday next, Mr. W. SMITH gave notice, that he would pre viously move for a Select Committee to inquire into the subject—( Haar.) . Mr. H. DAVIS presented a Petition from the Merchants, Bankers, &c. of Bristol, complaining of the inefficacy of the provisions of the above Bill, and praying the House to adopt a 'measure to meet the many evils arising out of the present system. Mr, PROTHEROE complained of the insuffi. ciency of the _ _ _ _ Mr. W. SMITH wished that the Bill might not be pressed forward till the question, whether a Select Committee should be appointed, had been disposed of. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not so sanguine as to believe that the Bill would obviate all objections, but he thought it would effect much good.—Petition ordered to lie on the table. ISA SEAS CORPUS. The Sheriffs of London presented the Petition from the Common Council, complaining of the inattention of the House to divers complaints urCed by the peo ple by Petition, and expressing their opinion that the Ministers had pressed the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act with the view of stifling the complaints of the people ; and praying the House not to sanction the Ministers' application for a continuation of the corn. rive measures now in existence. The Petition w.ts read, and, on the motion vf 3 W. CURTIS, ordered to lie on the table. INCTI4 EbiTl TOR 1 REA SON. Mr. CURWEN rose to submit a motion, which, if he deferred, might not have the effect desired from I he pure distribution of criminal justice was ct great importance to the liberties of the subject, eve cially at a moment when those liberties were in abey ance ; and in casts of treason, by the 7th Anne and other Acts, the law was particularly anxious that t!:e persons charged should be possessed of the know ledge of what was alleged, and of the witnesses to he exhibited against them. Ten days before trial a list of the witnesses must be served on the prisoners. Such list had been served on the prisoners is tie Tower, and the number declared to be vabicenied s.mounted to 210, while the indictments • , :ete on the evidence of 41 witnesses. Why WAS the iier extended beyond the enumeration of those on whose testimony true bills had been found ? He tr.t.l..a that it did not originate from any desire to rtr;!ts the prisoners ; but he certainly conceived it to be Al abandonment of the spirit of the law, which rec.:ire d the list to be furnished. There was much grnnnJ it? the exertion of jealousy, when the country reganu . d the idea that there was any organized plan c: tante to the laws ; and he trusted that no Rci - V: would be produced from the Select Committee, to be appointed, previously to the termination et :ICS" State Trials, which were to commence on Nlce ,t al• (Hear, hear.) He concluded with moving lora .copy of the list of witnesses saved on the pristlntsi . the Tower, now under arraignment for high tre.tseN , The ATTORNEY-GE. E RAL resiatcd.the rC :tido; as calculated to picjudice the minds of the Yts:).