Star. — London, England, 1831-07-14 00:00:00

1 • 1 ` _•, ~~ T e . ' i ..r`!„ 1 :, • , . 4 4 i t I' • • . s • il i l l i' 44, 1 4 • 1 : : 1 i = 4 ••••• i 1 4 i 'I , 1. i II i i - • 1 I 1 ,. I ( i i i 4 ' ! '' I 4 •t , r of t!'!ni rcspectivyly bolded' and enlace", and of this they, er any t f their.. are not to tHil, as they will answer the con trary at their unle , s upon .pedal reasons by Ourself, yriltr Our hand. to he allowed, We shall dispense with any cr their services attendances. ei:yenatOur Court at St. James'', the the thirteenth day t July. in the scend year a Our reign. Gots SAVE THE KING. 11. - .1 14 PAR LIAMENT. 110 USE OF LORDS, JILT 13. Time comvorrrinw SILL• __ O. the sugge.oion of the Duke of CUMBERLAND the Pccena reading of the Tithe Composition Bill was postponed :01 Friday next. 13 consequence of the monis:try absence .4 k.tl Eldon. _ _ The Bishop s`; FF.il N 3 resented a petition from Grange io Ireland. prating for assistance to collect the tithes in that parish. The light Bev. Prelate then alluded to a letter of of Dr. lbyle complaining of non.resitlence; st.ch a charge could not he breught against the clergy of the county Carlo e. for there via but ore .non-resid,nt in the comity. and that was amounted for by his glebe hot:se heing attached to the-living. Ile then went on to support si,e prayer uf the petition, by stating that it was almost im peoa)le to get any person to serve a process for tithes in Ireland, so apprehens i ve were the parties of personal viultnce being infikttil upon them, as - in the late unfor tunate case at Newtowninarr.—Petition laid on the table. Lord DARNLEY prr.ented .n petition from Meath, in favour of PatliAnlentar) Reform. The Marquis of LA NS DO WE presented a petition from Galway, fur an cqullizotion of the elective franchire. AFFIAT AT NEWTOWNBAIIBT. Lord FA n NIIA 31 rose, pursuant to notice, to move fo s terrain papers con...Let:el with the late melancholy event which took place in the south of Ireland. lie was happy that the right rev. prelate had preceded his motion by a peti tion from nineteen or twenty beneficed clergymen, statin..: the difficulty they found in collecting that which was as much their due under the law, as the rents of any noble lord in that honse. (Hear ) It was necessary their lordships should know how far popular excitement prevailed against the Established Church. Ile felt, in making his motion, considerable embarrassment. He knew that premature dis. t ussion on a subject of this nature, before it was brought to a conclusion, might he a - tended with great inconvenience, and he should not have brought it under cencideration if they had abstained elsewhere from nibs-sten:men'. Calumny had been u•tered. and obloquy cast on those who stood for trial. The most indecent libels and mnrepresentations had issued from the press. When the terms indiscriminate slaughter and massacre were used it was almost iniptno ible for the parties to go to trial without ptejudicc on the minds of those Mho had to try them. If their lordships should allow the papers he rtvirtd. a new Pet would be thrown on the transaction, aod corroborate the statement he should give of the me. laneholy mins. The noble lord produced an article printed at Bin:thigh:an, with a plate. It was beaded " Dreadful Slaughter at Newtownbarry," and contained a most calum nious statement During the last session he described the disturbance which took place in the parish of Graves, in the county of lii:kmny, as a systematic conspiracy to prevent the payment of tithes. He was supported in that opinion by the loser of Doctor Doyle, which contained the following passage :—" Talking of the Irish nation. they were all unwilling to submit to an unjust imposition I trust they never will pay tithes." The Noble Lord ex pressed his indignation at a person sitting down in his study I and writing a pamphlet, to excite a feeling which must pro- duce so much net Such a person was morally respon sible for the blood which bed been shed. An individual in the neighbourhood of Newtownbarry, whose name be had mentioned on a former occasion in that House, was one of the chief conspirator, against tithes in that part of thc country. He had been told, and believed it to be true, that the gen- , tlernz.n had been made a magistrate of the county of Carlow. Lord PLUNK} T.-1 never heard of it ; I have every reason to belkve he is rot in that situation. Lord FARNHAM then observed, that he should say no wore on that point. No person huneuted more than him. self the unfortunate events of Newtownbarty, where fifteen or twenty lives had been sacrificed. All had arisen out of a determination to resist the payment of tithes. The Rev. Gentleman who was the incumbent in the parish of New. townbarry hail been reduced, with his family, to want, not leing able to obtain his tithe. A more respectable man was slot to be found. He had lived among his parishioners upon the best terms, until this unfortunate question occurred. "He would have been in absolute want, with his family," said the noble lord, "If my steward had not supplied him with a sheep from my flock. In that state of distress he distrained for tithe upon a person able to pay. In conse quence of that proceeding a placard was published, headed Reform, inviting the people to resist the payment of tithes." It came express front Dublin, and he knew the printer who printed it. The placard was carried round the market. The Magistrates thought it their duty to keep the peace, and they ordered the yeomanry, by a c;r:ular, to assist the civil power. One of the magistrates was a gentleman who had served in the Peninsular war. The ether magistrates were experienced gentlemen. There came about 100 yeomanry. They were placed in a situation where they remained concealed, and mere ordered not to appear un less required. The cattle distrained were rescued, but brought back and put in the pound. Fifteen policemen were ap pointed to guard the cattle, but the mob threatened them, ;lid the yeomanry were brought out. Missiles of every de ter priori were thrown at them, but that attack they disre garded. A rush was then made on them, for the purpose of vtizing their arms. One yeoman, and the son of a yeoman were killed. The yeomanry then fired. The firing did not last longer than three or four minutes, but one particular feature in the affray was, that shots were fired by the mob. There could be no doubt of that fact, for slugs were extracted roam the knee of one of the yeomen. It was clear the mob came prepared to resist the law. Such wete the circumstances that would appear, if the papers he required were laid be fore the house. The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to order, and re- i mit.ded the Noble Lord that the House of Lords formed a Court of Judicature. Proceedings had commenced against the parties implicated in the matter to which the Noble Lord referred; and he put it to the candour of the Noble Lord, whether they ought to hear the facts before the inves tigation was at an end ? He could not think, because news. papers had entered into the discussion, that the House of lords ought to interrupt the due course of law. Lord FA ItNH A M said he was aware of the difficulty the Noble end Learned Lord had suggested. He did not know, until informed by a Noble Earl, in what state the inquiry stood. He knew that the coroner's inquest had not been conclusive, and therefore thought himself at liberty to bring the subject before Parliament. In the few observations he had further to make, he should avoid any thing which might interfere with a criminal prosecution. He thought the discretion by the Magistrates was well exercised. It was quite clear that they had the power to call upon the yeomanry to assist in dispersing a riot. The yeomanry was bound to obey. lie thought he had said enough to satisfy their Lord ships as to the filets, and therefore aheuld move that an hum. ble address be presented to his ;Majesty, for copies of the cvi knee tak r. by order of the Lied lieutenant of Ireland, tespecting the affray at Newtownbarry ; also for a copy of the report made by the chief constable of police on the subject. Viscount MELBOURNE . said. it was impossible to comply with the Noble Lord's motion. The principles of jt.stice forbade it. Disposed as he w. ato make allowances for calumny contained in publications, he thought the long eaperienee of the Noble Lord in Parliament might have led him to conclude his motion would be objec.ionable. It was not his intention to go tiro the questioned' tithe, as connected wlth Newtownbarry, nor would he make any observation on the case stated by the Noble Lord. He thought the Noble Lord would have done much better had he waited till the law gave the correct information. (Hear, hear.) With respect to tl.e papers moved for, they were documents which roils' be considered ex-parte evidence, and could not be pro duced. A similar application in the other House had been considered an improper motion. Lord FARNHAM then obtained leave to withdraw his motion. TITHE COMPOSITION SILL. The LORD CHANCELLOR said, lie had waited for his Otrice the Archbishop of Canterbury, to know what his Glace would be pleased to do with respect to the communi •siii.n from a Noble Earl (Eldon), on the subject of the Tithe Composition Hill. His Grace had not come to the lirmse, and he (the Lord CI ancellor) had sent a note to his Grace. to know whether lie would put off the discussion on the Hill to Monday, when the Noble Earl would be sure to attend. He thought they might calculate upon the con. sent of his Grace to that arrangement, and he therefore gave an intimation to the House 'that Noble Lords might con sider Monday the day qedilicussion. Lord DACRE sald'he should bring his measure forward on the day the most Reverend Prelate moved the second reading of his Ball • DANIIOPTCY DILL. The LORD CIIA NCELLOR gave notice that he should bring in his Bill of last Session for regulating Bank ruptcy proceetlinp on Friday. On Tuesday he should Min!! in hip Bill for the abolition of the Court of Exchequer In Scotland. Several Bills were brought up from the Commons, and were rend the first time. The House then Adjourned. fiOLTSE OF COM3IONS. Col TOR R iir;seQdapetition from Mr. Gurney, noticing that Turnpke bills had passed which excluded steam carriages from passing along the roads, with extra costs, and praying that they might be exempted from such severe tolls. . Mr. HUME observed that there had been so much talent and capital employed by Mr. (Jamey that the carriages were entitled to exemption. Mr. (3. DANI'SON observed, that ore Turnpike Bin had pawed, which taxed steam cartiages to the extent of I la. as co:npared with 2e. as contrasted with other carriages. He hoped'nothing would be done to throw obstructions in the was of these improvements. Mr. S. WOR ('LEY said, that the steam carriages in jured the roads much more than other carriages. Sit M. II lULEY ecid that might be, but the difference in the toll was prep o sterous. Mr. HUME suggested that a Select Committee should be formed, to inquire into the subject. Mr. W I LKS mentioned that these carriages were running (tom 11 hitechapel with great advantage to the public. Col. TOUR ENS gave notice, that on the 25th instant, he should move for a select committee on the subject. Mr. SA DLEII postponed till August 2, his motion regarding poor laws for Ireland, and till August I t, his ruction regarding the employment of the English poor. Mr. MOUNT presented a petition from the Tile of Wight. praying that they might he permitted to send two Members to Parbament. _ _ _ Alr. FFI ZGi ,. .IIA LI) presented a petition from Seaford, against the tlisfranchist ment clauses of the Reform Bill. Mr. IiCNT presented a petition from Manchester against the Corn Laws—laws that had consigned thousands of the people to premature destruction. HUNT postponed his notice of motion for the repeal of the corn laws to Thursday the 28th inst. Mr. AYEY LAND ptesenttd a petition from the borough of Hindon, praying that they might nut be deprived of their franchise. Mr. J. BROWN presented a petition from Newport, in the county of Mayo, praying that they might have two ntem ben under the Reform Bill. Mr. WfLBIIAHA3I presented a petition from Cheshire, praying that fanners and graziers might have votes for mem. hers of parliament. Mr. CAMPBELL presented a petition from Kendal, praying for a limitation of time to :he claims of the church. Mr. J. WOOD said, 222 suits had been instituted in one parish to act aside moduses which had been established for several hundred years. Mr. HUDSON presented a petition from Coventry against the disfranchisement of any of the elettors. Mn ELLIOT raid the freemen of Coventry had one and all sirned a petition in favour of the Reform Bill. Sir C. WETHEItELL said it was now beginning to be understood all over England, that the Reform Bill was a disfranchisement bill. Mr. Alderman THOMPSON said he would take that opportunity of giving some explanation of his observations lln the debate last night. He had supported the Reform Bill in the last and present parliament, and should continue to support it; and the schedules that lisrmed an important part of it; but knowing that one parish of the borough of Appleby had been omitted in the population returns of 1821, he felt anxious to give the inhabitants an opportunity of proving that fact before the house. If that fact was proved, he was confident the noble lord and the house would consent to Ap pleby returning one member. Sir S. WORTLEY moved, that during the present ses sion of parliament, all orders of the day set down for Mon. day, Wednesday, or Friday, should he disposed of before any other business was proceeded on. This, he thought, would expedite the business. Sir R. PEEL said he would only consent to the resolu tion as an experiment ; as it appeared doubtful whether it would be productive of the expected convenience. Lord A LTHORP thought that if on Wednesday Govern ment did not claim any priority foe their orders, the resolution would be productive of convenience. The resolution was then agreed to. Lord ALTIIORP asked the hon. gent. who had given notice of a motion on the foreign slave trade for to-morrow to part from it. Mr. BURG E postponed it to 2d August. Mr. ROBINSON asked by what authority the gates of Hyde-park were closed on Monday against horses and carriages. Lord DLNCANNON said, by order of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, at the request of the Quar ter-master General, according to custom on review days, foe the protection of the public. Carriages were formerly ad. witted by tickets on review days ; but to prevent complaints of partiality, no tickets were issued on Monday. (Hew.) pEroax. Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that the order of the day be read for the home to revolve itself into a committee on the reform bill. )Ir. CROKER said, the noble lord had on a former oc• cation made a statement that he had removed the borough of D .canton from Schedule B to Schedule A, in consequence of information he had received. He now wished to ask the twills lord from whom he.had received that information. Lord J. RUSSELL said from Lord Radnor. (Hear.) Sir K. PEEL said, the house decided last night that they would not hear counsel ; but he believed it bad not decided that it would exclude evidenc, ; and he thought many cues might arise in which it would be proper to receive evidence, and the Committee would not have the power to receive evi. dime unless the house gave it that power. The bill pro. vided that commissioners should divide counties ; if it were known bow counties were to be divided he could make up his mind more satisfactorily on many parts of the details of the bill. If Birmingham and Coventry were included in the same division of Warwickshire, they would return the members for that division, not the landed interest. Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought it not Impossible that a ease might arise in which it would be expedient that the Committee should receive evidence ; and in that case the Committee might apply to the House for liberty to do so. With respect to the division of counties, Government did not wish to take that matter on themselves, but when the Commissioners should be named, it would b: seen that they were not selected for any party purpose. The division would be made by them in, a manner more satisfactory than it could be dune by Government. Sir CH ARLES WETHERELL said, it would enable Commissioners to divide counties in such a manner as to make the mercantile Interest, in many districts, overpower the latided interest. Mr. C. WYNN said, the power to be given to Commis sioners was an arbitrary power, without any principle for its government. Loid ALTHORP admitted it was a difficult part of the arrangement ; and if any practicable improvement could be suggested, Government would be happy to agree to it.— (Hear.) The order of the day being read, Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that the Speaker now leave the Chair. Captain GORDON said he was anxious to explain, that ahhough he had been the occasion of the motions for adjourn ment on the previous evening, the proceedings, as far as he was concerned, were entirely destitute of design, or with a view to factious opposition. He stated that he had, during the early part of the evening, made several attempts to be heard, and had been disappointed, and he then ventured to move the adjournment to have an opportunity of expressing his opinions. But when he did move the adjournment it was without any concerted plan, further than that when he had done so, some one or two honourable members who sat near him, had intimated that they hoped he would perse vere, and not consent to withdraw his motion. He would never degrade himself in maintaining hie opinions by fac tious means ; whatever were his sentiments, he would always freely express them, and his conduct Would at all times be open and above-board. He also thought that those hon. gentleman who had afterwards supported the several motions were alike incapable of any such motives u had been ascribed to them ; theirs had only been the manifestation of an uncom. promising, but manly opposition. The hon. member went on to state that although be was ready to afford redress for every abuse of whatever dt.scription, whether in church, state, or law, he was nevertheless still convinced, notwithstanding all that had been advanced to Impress an opposite opinion, that the term revolution was much more applicable to the measure that had been proposed than the term reform. The hon. member then entered on an elaborate and eloquent dis quisition on the merits of the bill and the consequences he anticipated that it would produce on the institutions of the country. (Hear.) He conceived that a different estimate should be formed of what might be viewed as an abuse in the constitution taken as a general matter, from that which might be formed if viewed detachedly; and that the nature of the means for the prevention of such abuse should be considered In some degree according to the source from which it was proposed. Where disease existed, every one allowed that medical skill was desirable; but if a remedy was proposed by a party that Wall his life been endeavouring to dissemi nate an opinion that the constitution of the patient was in curable that nothing could save his life, and that he was in a galloping consumption,then they ought to look more closely and examine the remedy he recommended. In this light he contemplated the present measure. As far as it bore upon the institutions of the country, he held it not as a measure of reform, but as a measure of annihilation. It was to oblite rate all traces of the substantial existence of institutions, and to introduce the dictates of expediency and mob faction. It was the essence of all radical bills and revolutionary principles. In viewing its effects on the Institutions of the country, he would first consider how it would affect the church, of which that House was bound to be the conservator and supporter. By the present measure franchise would be given to at least 250,000 dissenters. Ile did not mean to attach any odium to, or to hold lightly dissenters, as he was convinced that there were among them men of mind and vast acquirements, and he had no doubt that they were dissenter* from principle, that they had become dissenters because they conceived that it was more consonant to religion in its pu rity ! and consequently that it became their bounden duty not only to further the precepts and interests of their peculiar tenets, hut that by the same rule it became their duty to use their utmost endeavour to subvert the Church esta blished. The measure, in like manner, franchised a vast numb, r of Roman Catholics, %Anse feelings and sentiments must be as regarded by the Established Church in the same position as those of Dissenters. In making these remarks he did not mean to attribute any thing inconsistent or im proper on their part ; but, on the contrary, he would give them every credit, because he believed them to be sincere. If these effects which he anticipated were dottlated,he would recal to their recollection the petitions that had been presented to the !louse, to show how far short the bill came of all that was asked by niob dictation. The hon. member for Preston had presented ',taunts from places signed by 20,000 and 7.000, some declaring that the bill did not give then, all they wanted and all that they had a right to ; but praying for annual parliaments and universal suffrage. (Hear, from Mr. Hunt.) The same honourable member hid presented a petition, signed by thonsands, decrying tithes. and stigmatising the clergy as bloated objects. He did not mean to make any personal al!usions, nor to point to individuals, but he would ask how it came ' that infidelity, and all that was infected was in support of the bill ? He had weighed in his mind the effects of the French Revolution in 1793 and 1794, and the effects of the French Revolution in France, about a twelvemonth ago, on the people of this country, and be had come to the conclusion that the effects of the present were precisely the same as those of the French Revolution of 1794. At that time there 'were in every city and town in England, associations and corresponding societies, who styled themselves the " Friends of the People ;" and such was the cane at present. There were associations of trades' union, a kind of inter mediate Parliaments, and corresponding societies, who acted in concert, and who sent delegates to different places. (No, so, front Mr. Hunt.) lie would prove it.—(No, no, from Mr. Hunt). If the Honourable Member for Pres ton meant to deny this assertion he (Captain Gordon) could name where they held their mecings.—(Where, where? from Mr. Hunt). Somewhere in Oxford-market. (No, no, from Mr. blunt). He was not in the habit of travelling for such information; but be could produce his authority although his knowledge was not so good of the localities. Tire Honourable Member here produced some papers, from which he read extracts giving reports of meet legs in Oxford-market, Manchester, and Glasgow, and in some of which it was asserted that if the bill was refused there were numbers ready to resent it equal to double the army that had fought at Waterloo; and at Glasgow that there had been a telegraphic line of communication fixed, and black banners provided to rally round. The Gallant Captain proceeded to state the contents of the printed papers orjournals which he held in his hand, which praised the arrangements that had taken place in France, where tithes had been abolished • adducing America as an instance of the good effects Of that order of things, and pro posing that Christianity should be rid of these encum brances, and that tithes should be abolished in this country, and the Church property seized and appropriated to the liquidation o f the national debt. The gallant captain after a few more observations, said that it had been the effects of radical petitions. (Hear, hear, from Mr. Hunt.) And these were the classes that had pr incipally effected this bill ; and he considered, under the circumstances, that they would be great fools if they would remain contented with the mea sure should it pass. Colonel LINDSEY spoke against the bill. He repro. bated ministers for the haste with which they were pressing It ; and said that he considered the measure would be highly prejudicial. On the SPEAKER putting the question that he now leave the Chair, Mr. C. WYSIN moved that all petitions tibia had been presented to the House relating to the details of the measure, should be laid before the committee. Lord A LTII OR P said that he had no objection. Mr. HUNT, at considerable length, replied to the speech of Captain Gordon. The house then resolved itself into a committee on the reform bill. NVYNN rose to move the postponement of the con sideration of the first clause. He said the evil of the pre sent system was not the representation of decayed boroughs, but the non-representation of certain rich and populous com munities. He considered the first question should be, What were the places to be enfranchised ? secondly, What room was to be made for them ?--The proposition they had now under consideration was, that all the boroughs in schedule A should cease to be represented. Were any grounds stated for their re-election? (lieu.) The principle that boroughs under 2,000 inhabitants were dislanchiscable should have been introduced into the bill. But was 2,000 the smallest nucleus rcund which could be collected 300 101. hou-ehold ers ? Be it so, at least take not the returns of 1821. (Hear.) The last returns might have been had long ago, had circular letters been sent by ministers : as it was, they would be be fore the house in a fortnight. (Hear.) Had they taken in 1821 the census of 1811, eleven of the boroughs which were r.ow to return the full number of members, would not have returned one. (Hear.) He was averse to an arbitrary line of demarcation. Reference at least should be had to the num ber of 101. householders. In fact, Government had disfran- 1 chised Duncan and Sr. Germains, though possessing more than 2,000 inliebitants, because the 101. householders were so few. Why, then, disfranchise those places which had a safficient number of these householders, though not quite 2,000 inhabitants ? He knew places where mills and other manufacturing establishments attracted, temporarily, hun dreds of children and destitute persons, who added nothing to the wealth of the places, but often increased their burdens. lie proposed waiting until Commissioners had investigated and reported, nut only on the amount of population, but on the number of 101. and 201. householders in every place.--- To the disfranclifsement of certain boroughs there would nut be one dissentient voice, but with respect to others much doubt and diversity of opinion must still exist. Under these circumstances he would propose proceeding to the dissuasion of the third clause, postponing the two first clauses until more information had been received. After a few observations on the increased representation, and on the division of counties (to which last he was not partial, because it would subject them to the influence of indivi. duals,) —he said he was disposed to a considerable addition to the representation by enfranchisement, and also that room should be made for that increase, because the present number of members he considered sufficient. To supply this room, he would by preference unite boroughs into dis tricts, as they were now united in Wales and Scotland; but this could not be effected until the number of enfran. chisemcnts had been decided on. He should move the post ponement of the consideration of the first clause, and would subsequently move a similar postponement with respect to the second. Sir E. SUGDEN said now the principle was carried be would touch on no irritating matter. The present was a departure from the first bill, in all its important features.— This proved that to change a constitution advantageously and permanently, the talents and eloquence of the Govern. ment were not enough, but that time was also necessary. (Hear, e hear.) Sixty-two memb e rs were cut off by the Bill. And, first, he would ask, when they were told of the people demanding changes, where was, not the body, but the individual, who had asked for diminish. ing by one the number of representatives ? But now, it appeared, the fit number to be reduced was thirty-one. Was the representation of England thus to depend on the waver.' ing will of ministers ? The schedules had been altered, and upon the most loose authority. Out of schedule A five bo roughs, doomed at first to utter destruction, had been trans (erred to schedule B. Out of schedule B nine had been restored to their former state of representation, salvo others bad been transferred to schedule A. It Ira thus Govern ment trifled with the feelings of many electors, exciting alternately their hopes and fears. He warned Ministers against teaching the people what they were but too prone to learn--that a constitution could be changed thus frequendy.ln the counties, the novel experiment of what might be termed a triangle in representation, was proposed; certain counties were so be represented by three members. This change, toge ther with the division of counties, would do away with all compromise in elections, and large minorities mew remain unrepresented. (Cheers, and interruption at the bar.) lie hoped for an attentive listening when speaking on a measure which affected the existence of their country. Sir J. WROTTESLEY rose to order. He hoped the house would listen with the greatest attention to the lion. and learned member, who, he knew, was suffering under a late indisposition. He claimed silence at the bar. (Hear.) Sir E. SUDDEN proceeded. In the franchise qualifica tion repeated changes had been made. The change respect. ing leaseholders wits particularly Important, as affecting agri. cultural relations. (Hear, hear.) The counties were cut up in a manner that would place many a county division in the situation of small boroughs (Hear.) Their franchise qualifi cation had been altered four times. (A voice—Four times ?) Yes, four times. How, he - asked, was he to know that the last alteration was the best possible ? He came to the clause said to have been inadvertently worded, and requiring the rent to be payable not less than once in every halt' year. The language of the clause was clear, technical, and explicit ; it was repeated in another page of the bill. It was not the effect of inadvertency. Let ministers deny him ; they had found they had gone too far, and had started front their own act. (No! no!) In the first bill the constituents of Preston were not saved, nor the children of existing freeholders. The clauses respecting Privy Councillors had been altered. The Welch representation, by dint of shifting and carvir.g the borough:; and districts, was no longer the same. In the Scotch and Irish representations,he would,wlren the time came, show most material changes. And was there, then, no ground for time and reflection? (Hear, bear.) Were they not con sidering a plan than which a vaster had never been submitted to a deliberate body ? (Hear, hear, hear.) But not only did ministers take upon themselves to make changes, they were to nominate, together with their majority, Commissioners to make additions and alterations in coun ties, &c. at their pleasure. Was this clause a mistake, or a wilful alteration in the Constitution ? In either case it must shake public confidence, and rendered it imperative on the house to make these alterations itself. How would Members like to have their own property disposed of by third persons ? The disfranchisementa could not be discus. eed until the enfranchisements had been fixed. In fourteen short days the actual and real state of the population would be known. But not even fourteen days could Ministers wait ! The nomination boroughs were destroyed, while the freemen remained electors, thereby doing away with the in fluence of property and knowledge, while retaining the lowest scale of constituents. He maintained that the nomination boroughs worked well in conjuction with the rest of the con. stitutional machinery. Suppose them struck out while the rest of the old system was retained, and what opposition or improvement could be offered to any great question while members stood pledged to adopt a particular course ? The majority of the present House stood pledged. (No, no.) The passage in the King's speech, calling for deliberation on the Reform Bill, could only be addressed to the Lords,who were unfettered. He then described the present system of representation as expanding with the wealth and population of the kingdom. Copyhold tenures, which were inconvenient, and should be converted into freehold tenures, were, by the present bill, entrusted with the franchise, and thus the tempation for the conversion taken away. After a few other observations, the hon. and learned member concluded by thanking the opposite side for the attentive and very handsome manner in which he had been heard, and by saying he should strongly support the motion of his right hon. friend. !dr. STANLEY observed that the only question then really before them was, whether they should consider the die franchisirg or the enfranchising part of the bill. It was, to be sure, some satisfaction, and he was only surprised at the fact, after the almost unprecedented pertinacity with which the question bad tor seven hours and a half been resisted on the former night, that they had at last got into the committee. (Hear.) On the former night, the adjournment was pressed, because the hon. member for Brecknockshire (Col. Wood) had desired to enter into what he termed the general details of the bill; but now, when the opportunity presented itself, the speech had evaporated. So much tbr some of the reasons urged for that adjournment. Now they had got into the Committee, and approached the first clause • but even that, it seemed, was not to exempt members from going into the general question. The hon. and learned gentleman who had just spoken (Sir E. Sugden) had done so ; and certainly he had, in addition to having spoke very largely on the general question, contrived to en cumber it with much incomprehensible involution. Amongst the charges preferred against the ministers one was that the debates with them were a mockery, for that they had settled the question by the King's speech, and had brought forward the bill cut and dry, and then asked the house to de liberate upon it. What was done in the year 18'29, re specting the Catholic question ? That was recommended in the King's speech, and the bill was afterwards brought forward cut and dry for the consideration of the Parliament; yet he had never heard any one venture to call the deliberations on that bill a mockery (hear, hear, hear). Now, mutat s mulatulis, the proceeding respecting the re form was precisely similar to that adopted respecting the Catholic question.—(Cbeers). Then the pledges were at. tacked. It was said that the pledges were for the destruc tion of the nomination boroughs, which would lead to the destruction of the peerage. and Heaven knew what else. He did not accuse the Learned Gentleman of having any overwhelming anxiety for the people; bat he ( Mr. Stanley), who did desire that the people might net bewhoUyforgotten, did think that, after the Sovereign had desired to take the sense of the people respecting a particular measure, and when they came to vote, that the people should ask the candidate what might be his opinion on that question. What more had been done? But the Learned Gentleman said that the Bill resulted from the love of change, and nothing else.— Now, was he prepared to say that there ought to be no change ; and if he was so prepared, did he expect to find that the people would be of the same opinion ? The late Ministers had decided against Reform, the present Minis ters had come into power pledged to Reform ; the question had been referred to the people, and they had decided in favour of those who said that the representation ought to be reformed. Then what became of the charge about mere I love of change ? But it was averred that there had been great baste, and that in fact the Ministers had produced three different bills. He denied that such was the fact ; the present bill did nut differ in its principles and main features from the original Loud cries of hear, hear.) Oh ! but it would give a new Constitution. He admitted that It would effect great changes ; but their tendency would be to bring back the Constitution, instead of creating a new one. (Hear.) The principles of the measure, in spite of all that was said about new France and old England, were those that were not at variance with, but applicable to the feelings of the people of this country. Yes, and with (lon's blessing, they were such as would keep pace with the im proved state and views of the country. But, it was said, that time had given &certain mellowness to existing intl. unions. True, and had not time given something more than mellowness to parts of those institutions ? (Cheers.) The Ministers had endeavoured to keep pace with time, and had deliberated and inquired with the greatest anxiety. The ministers did not pretend to be infallible. It was asked why cut off sixty or sixty-two members ? He did not know that there was any thing in the particular number, and cer. tain places were proposed to be disfranchised because the ministers said that they were subject to certain influence, and that the exertion of such influence was detrimental. The number was not taken to suit the fickle minds of the minis. ten, but it happened that the places which came within such description amounted to such number. (Hear.) if the mi- Dieters bad altered the bill, or could alter it to suit their caprices, instead of being backed by large majorities, they would justly deserve to be scouted with contempt out of of that house. The disfranchisement& went on the principle that certain places were unworthy, from their limited num. bers and other reasons, to return members ; and the enfran. chisement, on the principle that other places, on account of their great population and extensive interests, ot to re turn members. But if the proposition of the r h tit hon. member for .Montgomeryshire (Mr. C. Wynn) was adopted, what became of their love of abstract justice ? Boroughs would not then be disfranchised en account of their delinquency, oe the thinness of the population, but in order to make roan for other boroughs and towns. That might be the line of convenience, but could it be Ask to be the line of justice also I , —. Now, as the Minisisia thought that the nomination and rot. ten beeengha ought in be minded, and that the Imp towns Win hafelfall ibllll Soaks members, he con. Wised_ :dal din Ildresehial!cdetele Lee = e gmedd first Isom mol domed the Dalt and t hought that IN eiliehbealis truest to take the preeetkom As to the motion that had been proposed, to change the in whish the clauses of the bill should be considered, if meant any thing it was its delay and defeat ; and he shoo) therefore vote against the proposed transfer of the pres, : . clause. (Loud cheers.) Mr. CHOKER complained of the sarcasm that had h s , i; applied to the speech of the hon. member for Duntla,:„.„ (Cries of adjourn). No, he should not propose adjourn:nett, but he could not help observing that there was to be a ni t mode of shortening the debates ; the hon. gentleman opp ot i t , would not answer. But though the minority mig•it small, it was great in power, as would be found. ft teas and laughter.) The silent course might be complim..%•asy to the fidelity of the ministerial adherents, but it very decorous to the house. However, what was to be tv, pected, when many were returned with such pledges, for flat they were pledged the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Stail.y i had admitted. (No, No) Why, yes. he had. (No, No, no !)—Yes— (No—tiluch laughter) That right h. gentleman had said, what was so proper as to ask nienilt et ,.. pledge themselves to the bill. (Loud cries of No.) Mr. STANLEY.-1 said, when a great question is at:. siting the country, what could be more proper than ta candidates, what is your opinion on such question ? Mr. CKOKER contended that the truth of what he I,a! said was thus proved. (Oh, oh! cheers and laughter.) II then maintained that those who had pledged therusthes t the bill now found a bill changed in every every ess e n t i s l part of it. (Loud cries of No.) He said yes, yes. It also incongruous, insulting, and exasperating. Stockport, with its 44,000 inhabitants, was to have one member; al Melton, with 4,500 population, was to have two member. ; would that measly the country ? Would it not exasperate it? Then as to the celebrated half-yearly clause—it was said tl. l r it should be retained. (No, no.) Why, it was declared ti it would he for the house to dispose of it. (Hear.) A:Ill that, what became of the inadvertency ? In truth, the nn. &sten had done that themselves for which they had dissolve I the late Parliament ; they in the cabinet had voted against every part of their own bill? (Much laughter.) They would be dissolved—he trembled for their dissolution—let them beware. (Loud laughter.) However property was to be the standard of the newly created franchise, and the 10 , , • house was to have the vote, and yet there was a bill (Mt. Nancy's) on their table exempting 101. houses item the poor's rates, thereby declaring such houses to be the residence of pauperism, yet the noble lord declared by his bill that the 101. householders contained the most independent legisla. tors. ( Loud cheers and laughter.) In conclusion, he begged to state, that he thought the motion of& Noble Lord (Milton) respecting Leaseholders ought first to be settled, before they proceeded with any other part of the bill. (Hear.) Lord A LTIIO RP observed that the learned gentlem ar . (Sir E. Sugden) had somewhat diverged from the question, hut the right hon. gentleman tali.) had just sat down had gone far beyond him. They had heretofore talked of coaling to the details, but in reality they had discussed the genera', principles of the bill. With respect to the refusal to answer. lie had not replied to the speeches delivered on the previous evening, because in reality they had not contained, in his estimation, any thing very novel, or that required an answer. As to another statement, and that involved the principle of the motion before the house, str ain boroughs were not to be disfranchised in order to make room for others, but because they were evils in themselves; and it was proposed toextend the franchise to other boroughs and place. because it was sub mitted that the extent of their population and interests en. Udell them to participate in the representation. ( lieu, hear.) The noble lord concluded by observing that the elective franchise ought to be extended to the lowest point of pro. property. If there was any danger it would arise from a res. triction of the franchise. It had been asked who called for a reduction of the number of members of that house ; he did not say there had been any such all. There had been aloud demand, however, for the disfranchisement of the rotten boroughs, and it was the duty of his Majesty's Ministers in the measure before the house to attend to that call (Hear.) Colonel WOOD was of opinion, that in dealing with the great measure before the House, it was necessary that the House should nor do too much. With respect to Schedule B, he contended that its spirit went to spoliate certain other boroughs, in order to give an additional number of Members to Ireland ; he should, therefore, feel no hesitation in sup porting the proposition of the Hon. Member: for Mont gomeryshire, that the two Schedules A and B, should be suspended ; nothing should induce him to vote for three members for a county, or one member for a town. Mr. C. PELH Ahi addressed the House, but In so low tone of voice that it was not possible to catch a sentence in the gallery. Sir ft. PEEL rose and said he should con fi ne himself to the question immedi ately before the house; he meant that clause of the bill which had reference to schedules A and B, and he should fellow the example of the noble lord opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) and make a very short speech. His Majesty's ministers, after they had obtained a majority of 136, ought to have abstained from going into the details of the bill until they had obtained correct returns of the population : the fact was, that the bill was framed on the returns of 1821, when, perhaps, in another fortnight new and totally different returns would be made. The right bon. gentleman then went on to show, that there had not been suf. ficient time for the returning ()deer to make up his tetanus of the population, and especially alluded to the report front Rochdale, which stated that if he (the returning officer) did not transmit his return by a certain day, he would be mulcted in a cry min fine. He was prepared to vote against Schedules A and B, at whatever period they were to be discussed..._ His first reason for objecting to them was, that he never yet had heard a sufficient reason assigned for such a whole. sale disfranchisement. He also objected to them on another ground, namely, because they excluded all those individuals whose opinions in the deliberations of that House were of the utmost consequence, but who would never submit to the toil of obtaining the suffrages of the vest body of 101. huusenolders to whom the franchise would be opened. With respect to our colonial interests, he was also afraid that local feelings would prevail over the former. The whole bill went on the principle of direct representation ; and if so, he was at a loss to guess why our colonies were not to be provided for on the same plan : another objection he had was,that the bill afforded no cheek to popular excitement. He contended, before Ministers acted upon the principle of disfranchise. went, they ought to have adopted the opposite mune of en franchisement ; he saw great advantage in the adoption o f the proposal of his hon.tfriend the Member for Montgomery shire, viz. that the disfranchising clause should be suspended until the question of enfranchisement were disposed of. Lord JOHN RUSSELL denied that the representation of the town of Rochdale was founded upon the return quoted by the hon. baronet, (Sir R. Peel.) With reepect to what fell from the right hon. baronet, regarding the Colonial In. terests of England, he did not apprehend that those interests would be overlooked, should the nomination boroughs, be done away ; there were numerous towns connected with the trade and commerce of the colonies, which would on all occasions send members able and ready to stand forwui in support of the Colonial interest. (Cheers.) Colonel SIBTHORPE supported the proposal of the hon. member for Montgomeryshire. Mr. HUNT said if it were absolutely necessary that his Majesty's Ministers should be elected to seats in that house, he perfectly agreed with the Right Hon. Bart. that the time might arrive when they would not get them. But he was of opinion that after this measure had passed, the time would soon come when the Ministers would have seats in that house in a manner mote agreeable to the Constitution. As be was a reformer all his life he should vote for this measure as it I began a reform ; but he could not forget that after the bill should pass that no poor man in the kingdom who could not live in a IUL house would have a vote. Mr. JOHNSTONE supported the bin, but the cries of " Question " were so loud and incessant, that it was impos sible to collect his observations. The boo. gentleman began so many sentences with, *"The hon. member for Tainwmth," that the bursts of laughter prevented our hearing more, and we believe prevented the honourable gentleman concluding his sentences. The committee divided— Ayes Noes Majority against postponement 118 The House resumed. Mr. BERNAL reported progress, and asked leave to sit again this day..—Leave given. The R ep ort of the Committee of Supply was brought up and agreed to. The other orders of the day were disposed of, and the House adjourned at Hasr.pasr Two o'Ctoec. .. 174 THE GIG ANTIC WHALE.—Within the last few days, His Ro_yal Highness th e D u k e o f Gl ou cester honoured the Pavilion with his presence; together with many persons of distinction; namely : Lord Adolphus Pluck:ewe, Lord Morley, Marchioness of Winchester, Earl Pomfret, Lord Elphinsteos, Ls Counter* Worousow, His Grace the Duke of W eelliogtcn , Lord Louth, Viscount Colo, Lord sad Lady Bathurst, Lord Gafford; besides many abets too numerous to mention.