Star. — London, England, 1822-02-26 00:00:00

advise a prisoner' ti perjure littntelf, or vmedd aid him in his escape. He contended that the jailer was justified in using a discretion as to the opening of letters, even before the making of regulations sanc tioned by the Judges and Magistrates. In ensue quence of its manufactures the County of Lancaster had doubled and nearly trebled its population in the course of a few years ; and it then beiame'neeessary, from the number and offences of the prisoners, to apply to the Judges on the Maize to sanction some new rules and regulations. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, the ques tion they had to decide on involved a matter of law and a matter of privilege. As to the first, no deci sion of theirs could bar the party aggrieved from his remedy in any of the Courts. But the Honourable and Learned Gentleman (Brougham) must forgive him, if he thought that the regulations of this prison were so far sanctioned by law, that the privilege of Parliament was not to ride - over them. Their mode of dealing with this question did not require them to look so narrowly or jealously to their privilege as if it were attacked. All the jailers in the country could not know the hand-writing of all the Members, though the Post Office did. How was a jailer to know a Member's name on the back of a letter? It had been said, that it was necessary for the liberties of the-peo ple ; but he did not know that it was necessary for Members of Parliament to correspond with prisoners, under pretence of learning the grievances of their constituents. He did not think that they were, in their quality of Members of Parliament, to become constant visitors of jails; or that they should corre spond with prisoners, whether confined for felony, or high treason, or sedition. Again, he said, if there had been any offence, it might be referred to the competent Tribunals. _ _ m . r. DENMAN wished to know bow that was to be done; for it was not a question of law but of pri v.:ege. The Noble Marquis had said that the car re,pondence should not be secret if there was any substantial grievance. Now that was the very rea son why it should be secret, as was shewn by the dif ficulty of:getting any inquiry into the conduct of the jailer of that most horrible %stile, rlchester Jail. If a )4:ler be complained of, and could open the letters c: prisoners, he might pot them in the fire, and treat his unfortunate victim with still greater severity. No grievance could be redressed if this privilege were taken away, and it was therefore their duty to stand up for it most zealously. The late Sir S. Romilly had, in a case of this very kind, declared that the privilege of Parliament was not to be got rid of by a side wind in any Act of Parliament. If the letters of Mr. Hunt to. hi, Honourable and worthy Friend bad been intercepted, famine and torture would have been introduced into Ilchester Jail. It had been said that the jailer could not know the signature of Mem bers; but the Post Office had given its sanction to its authenticity before it came into the hands of the jailer, and he had no right to open the letter. Pri vilege was excellent when it enabled Ministers to im prison their political opponents—(Near, hear).—But he hoped that the House would chew that the value of privilege was to protect, not to take away, the liberties of the People. Mr. B. B ATHURST said, the Learned Gentleman wished the House to believe that Ministers had a pri vate end to answer in opposing this motion. This he' denied, and thought the safest way would be to come to no decision upon the subj ect ; because it would be leaving the matter of privilege untouched, and the law open if any one had been aggrieved or illegally treated in this transaction. The two cases that had been quoted applied only to the Post Office. He denied that the rules of the gaol of Lancaster pre vented a prisoner from seeing his friends at proper hours, or under proper circumstances, or from con sulting his attorney, or any other legal adviser. The .gaoler was not to have known that this letter was ad dressed to any Member of Parliament. Mr. JAMES shortly replied. His view of the question was not at all altered, and he believed, on the authority of Sir Samuel Romilly, that the prac tice complained of was illegal. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wynn) had argued that poison might be conveyed to a prisoner in a letter. This was very true ; so might a prisoner knock his head against the prison wall if he were determined to kill himself. If the House neglected the present motion, he thought it would be guilty of a violation of the law, and would in effect establish two legislatures; one con sisting of King, Lords, and Commons, and the other of Judges and Magistrates. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Nonce divided, when there appeared— _ .. For the original motion - - - 60 For the previous question - - - 167 .111ajority - - - . .-107 THE FIVE PER CENTS. On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, the House was is a Committee, pursuant to the notice of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER on Friday. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the Resolution he was about to submit was connected with a transaction of the highest. importance to the financial interests of the country, while it proved the solidity of our public credit, and our steady adherence to the principles of national faith. It was analogous to the proposition of Mr. Pelham in the year 1749, to: reducing the interest of the 4 per Cents. to 3 per Cent. per annum. Some time previous to that pro position, Sir J. Barnard had submitted to the House a plan for raising money at a low rate of interest, and applying it in part to a reduction of the public debt ; but the plan was not entertained by the Hous.?.. But in 1749, Mr. Pelham, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, had proposed ;he measure, the effcct of which was to lower the interest from four to — three per cent. The sum affected by that purpose was 67 millions, a sum considered at that time so large, that doubts were seriously entertained of the practicability of the proposal. Mr. Pelham, however, persisted,. and the Parliament sanctioned his measure. After the expiration of the first year, the holders of the Stock were to receive three and a half per cent. for ten years, and three per cent. afterwards. The plan met with considerable opposition from large Compa nies and individuals interested in the Fund; and it was somewhat increased by the political opposition to the government, which was then very strong. The latter piece of conduct would, he trusted, meet an ho now able contrast in that of the Members opposite. He had stated that Mr. Pelham 's plan was adopted by Parliament. At about that time a pamphlet was, published by Sir John Bartntrsl on the subject, which, hnd'+e i Tteh - adt`addilinieti sans a `second s' proposed' lossafaveurable to the Wars' 6f. than the 4rst. aide. ; Pelham, however; recommended to Parliserent tp adhere to its first pr o p os al, and accordilig . it had'done so—( Hear, hear, hear).— The.plarb tiniately sucteeded to such an extent that the ambit* of theium required to pay off thi'persons who dissented from the proposal, was less than throe millions. Havi ng s li g h t ly n o t i ce d t h e p l an su gg este d' by Mr. Pelham, he came to the particular measure ; which he was about to bring under the notice of the House. Every one knew how much some operation of this kind had been lOoked for as the dawning of public prosperity. The measure be had to propose would prove to be a relief to the country of £1,150,000, and including the Irish Stock, of the description he was about to mention, of 1:1,2?0,000. There were several sorts of Stock composing our Funds. The first was called tbe Navy Five per Cents. and was formed originally of Navy Bills issued during the American war. It had been increased by Exche quer Bills and other Government securities, to the amount of one hundred and forty-one millions. The Irish Stock of the same description, guaranteed by English security, amounted to fourteen millions, and it might be proper to include this in the same terms as those about to be proposed with reference to the English Stock. There was another Five per Cent. Stock, called the Loyalty Fund. This was raised in 1797, and was subject to particular circumstances of redemption. The holders were entitled to call for pay ment in two years after a peace ; they had done so two years after the peace of Amiens, and they were paid principally in Stock of the present Navy .5 per Cents. This latter Stock could not be paid off under the pre sent proposed arrangement; it being agreed that they should not be paid off until three years after the pay ment of tbe Navy Five per Cents. The sum he pro posed to pay off was 143 millions ; and he suggested that this should be done in the Four per Cent. Stock, the interest of which to be payable, as usual, in July and January, and the proprietor of each £lOO Navy Five per Cent. Stock was to be entitled to £lO5 in the Four per Cent. or the new Stock. The arrangement to take place from July next. The holders of the Stock would thus be entitled to an addition of Five per Cent. upon their capital, and yet the country would derive immediate relief to the amount of £1,140,000. He should here observe, that all which Parliament could force upon the holders of this Stock, was the taking of ready money at par. The taking of the new Stock would be a voluntary act upon their part ; and, from the approbation which the Public had already given to the proposal, he had reason to believe that very few niould dissent from it. And he thought it consistent with every principle of public faith, as it certainly was with public conve nience, to consider those as assenting who did net, in a fair and reasonable time, express their dissent. l There were some distinctions between the plans of ' Mr. Pelham and himself, although they were, in point of justice, the same. They were the same as regarded the inviolability of the public faith, and only differed in arrangement. Instead of three months, as proposed by Mr. Pelham, to allow the parties to give their option to his terms, he desired to substi tute a shorter period. So long a period as three months was unnecessary and useless, and from the suspense it was calculated to produce,was likely to be very preju dicial in a great and important transaction like this. Such a length of time was equally prejudicial to the parties and to the Public ; to the latter, as retarding the relief contemplated by the arrangement, and to the former by laying individuals open to the effect of jobbing, and other money-market transactions, which sometimes disgraced this country. The time hepro. posed to allow for dissent was, for Great Britain and Ireland, to the 16th of March ; for persons not in this country, but not out of Europe, he should propose to allow three months further ; and to those who might be beyond the limits of Europe, 12 months.— Within these periods he thought all cases would be included. With respect to the calculation of the terms offered to the Stockholder, it was, to a certain degree, matter of speculation, but he was bound in justice to say, that the general expression with regard to them was, that they were perfectly fair to the Public and to individuals. He intended that the Stock thus created, should be unredeemable for seven years, viz. not before the sth of January, 1829. Mr. Pelham proposed that his Stock should not be redeemed for ten years, but it was to remain at an interest of 3i per cent. only after one year. As seven millions would be added to the debt by the bonus, he was aware that the advantage to the Public in this transaction should be great, and so he conceived it was—(Hear). There were toe modes of accomplishing this object.— One was to create a four and a half per cent. fund, instead of a tour per cent. fund. But in the first place, there was an objection to that, in the consider. able length of time it would require to effect such a transmutation, by which the intended benefit to the nation would be postponed. Again, by such an ar rangement a reduction of interest to the amount only of 4.700,000, instead of £3,150,000, would be effected. It appeared, therefore, to him, that the plan which offered an immediate relief, as a remission of the Public Debt to a greater extent by £400,000, was the preferable one. It was likewise an objection to the 4i per Cent. Steck, that it must either be made unre deemable for many years, in which case the benefit of a further reduction would be postponed, or its imme diate reduction always hanging over the head of the holder, would tend greatly to obstruct its accomplish :neut. The Right non. Gentleman next adverted to the proposes mode of taking the option of the stock holder by dissent, rather than by assent. As it was ' well known that the public expression was generally favourable to the terms offered, the mode of dissent possessed the superiority of being mote convenient to the holders of 5 per Cent. Stock as a body ; for the minority were called upon to express their determi nation rather than the majority—(hears—andism case , of this kind, that was a matter of great importance. Amongst those who would fall under the operation of this Arrangement there were about fifty thousand who held less than E-1000 each in this Stock, and the inconvenience of calling on so many to assent, was obvious. For the convenience of those who might desire to express their dissent, printed forms of letters would be ready for delivery at the Bank on the first day. These might be filled up by the person dissent ing, or by any One appoint ad by the party to act by the Power of Attorney. The order of paying them .off would be according, to the numerical order in which, the dissents should in registered on the hooks . . of the*plc. -The paging off attulA IMIt *is in the s"th - or fiali nett. an 4 the payments would be con tinnedailsaillainent sh4uld direct ; but as he did not expect there would be Many 'dissent, he did not anti. cipate much difficulty on this branch of the transic- - should tn be mi l l off on one d a y. ' was ye (6 be deterininea li/tether the whole, or at various periodi; big it would be tisneenodgh to consider'of that when he should be able to state the amount required to pay ,off those who dissented. By the 26th of George the First, cep. SI, it would be-found that Parliament possessed, the power to direct transactions of this kind. By that Act the manner and time of paying off Stocks above par were left to the direction of Parlia ment. Having shortly stated the plan he had to pro pose, and contrasted it with that of Mr. Pelham in 1749, to which he trusted it would not be thought inferior, it only remained for lilts to recal to the re colleCtion of the House the advantages which were to accrue to the Public from the. transaction.— There would be an immediate reduction of interest' to the amount of £1,150,000 besides the Irish Stock, leaving the field open for further reduction. A similar operation with reference to the Four per Cents. the House knew was in contemplation; but in what manner, and at what time, Parliament might think fit to afford further relief of this kind, it was not for him to say. That must in a great measure depend upon the firmness of Parliament to continue to maintain the public faith inviolate, by their ste4- diness in which co r e was alone to be attributed the power of effecting the present operation—(Hear, hear).—He took no credit to Government, which was but the organ of the will of a Parliament, which was a faithful representation of a free and generous peo ple. To the resolution of Parliament to support the Sinking Fund, and its firmness in maintaining public faith, was to be attributed the readiness with which the Stockholders came forward on the present occa sion, whereas he would certainly have shrunk if Par liament had adopted the opposite course, and failed in upholding the Stockholder in what he had fairly earned. His Noble Friend near him (the Marquis of Londonderry) had pointed out the wisdom of ad hering to the same steady course; and it was under the confidence ho felt that such would be the line of policy pursued by Parliament that he had resolved upon proposing the remission of the duty imposed by the Annual Malt Bill to the amount of the extra Malt Duty. He was anxious not to waste the time of the House; but as he probably might be asked why, with the feelings he must have had, he did not take advantage of the high price of the Funds in the year 1818 to bring forward the measure he now proposed, he would make his answer beforehand. At the con clusion of the peace, it was obvious that there were two great and important obstacles to the accomplish ment of such a plan. The one was, the projected re storation of the currency to its true standard ; and the other to the reduction of public burthens, which was so much the care of Government at that time. It was necessary, with reference to one obstacle, to guard against the abortive effects which the revival of cash payments might have; and by the other their hands mere tied. He likewise observed that had it been then attempted the Public would have been disappointed, as the prices of the Funds quickly fell back to the point they had shortly befoie left.— The earliest time for making this reduction had been taken, and never could it be more opportune or more acceptable to the Public. He considered this trans action as the sequel to the Resolution of 1819, pledg ing the House to the establishment of a clear Sinking Fund; and to that also of Thursday last, pledging them to a diminution of taxes, which had been held out as one of the principal advantages to be derived from the operation of the Sinking Fund. The Right Hon. Gentleman declared, that in consequence of the lateness of the hour at which he was enabled to open this subject, he would not trespass longer upon the time of the House. He then submitted a Resolution, to the effect— " That all persons holding Stock in the Navy Five per Cent. Fund, who should not signify their dissent before the 16th of March, should be entitled to £lO5 in the Four per Cent. Stock, the Dividends upon which should be payable half-yearly, on the sth of January and the sth of July; that the first Dividend should be paid on the sth of January, 1823 ; and that the Stock thus created should not be paid off before the sth January, 1829." The Resolution was then read. Mr. ELLICE, before he made any observations on the plan which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had submitted to the House, desired to be informed whe ther the condition of the dissent of the holders of the Five per Cents. instead of their assent, was to be in sisted upon by Government ? The CH ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that certainly his Majesty's Ministers had perfectly made up their minds on that subject, and that no alteration would take place in the conditions already before the Public. Mr. ELLICE was glad in having so explicit a de claration from the Right Hon. Gentleman, which rendered it his duty to state his objections to this most unjustifiable attempt to alter the terms on which the public creditor advanced his money—the title by which he held his property. The plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman differed as mach from that of Mr. Pelham, as openness, candour, and good feeling, did from crookedness, unfairness, and want of faith.— That Gentleman, he was sure, would never have borrowed money from the Bank for the purpose of reducing the Public Debt. He would not have offered to change the title of the Stockholder's pro perty, or subjected him in case of non-co,mpliance to a worse situation, upon such a short time for deli beration as was afforded for the dissent to the Right Hon. Gentleman's plan. 'The dissenting parties were to be paid off numerically : but how were they to learn whose letters were delivered first ?—(h ear). — This was most material, as there were consequences attached to the situation in which they stood on the list ; for as they were not all to be paid off on• the same day, how would it be possible to sell Stock so situated, when the first question of the buyer would be, " Where are you on the list 2" Then, in the case of trustees, it appeared i to him this plan was most faulty. In the event of their differing on the question of dissent, if one signed, would the others be bound by this act ? These, and many others, were the re sult of the Right Hon. Gentleman not following the plan of Mr. Pelham, which was good in all its parts. The Right Hon. Gentleinan had said, the terms now offered created an additional debt of seven millions. Why not, as a sacrifice must be made; propose to the holders of Five. per Cents, gradually to , reduce the interest as in the former case, and give them time to, F tiler ptlafionby a similar osticeofthree tntinth% an .. ' theta require their assent instead of their issent ? lint it was necessary, to suit the fancy of the tithes and the interest of the jobbers, to have something in th e shape cif - bonus —and what has been the result?..-e* I b Tlt y e Transfer O benafidehol ffi de c r e s , a at the unil HI rums, has s,for beene last t o w w ee ded ki anxious to avoid the consequences of this measure;-- 1 y have sold their all to the ready dealer retie i Funds, who •at their expense, takes the profit, profit at ' tenth the transaction, and these investments ha re been converteclanto foreign securities by the former holders of them. French ?vides, Russian, Prussian, Danish, 'Spanish, Austrian, and even South American Stocks have risen since the hioble Lord's speech at the com mencement of the Session, from 5 to 10 per cent. and are still rapidly advancing. Either the exchanges must fall, or the public securities decline, so as to diminish the temptation for foreign investments, and neither result would have o beneficial influence on the success of the present plan. - Another difficulty might be, the pressure of stock, which had been purchased by the sellers from the former holders, on the market. Since the publication of the finance measures of the year, the rate of interest has also risen ; and it is yet to be seen what the effect of any unlooked for politi cal event might be, under these circumstances, on the money market. If it should be unfavourable, had the Right Hon. Gentleman the same means Mr. Pel ham possessed of remedying the difficulty ? Had he a surplus revenue, or Consolidated Fund to assist in paying off dissentient holders, the source from which Mr.- Pelham at list completed his arrangements? On the contrary, the Consolidated Fund was now in arrear nine millions, two millions having been added to assist in keeping up the Funds last year, by apply ing that amount, in addition to the surplus of the Revenue, for the redemption of debt. Looking to the circumstances of the country, lie much doubted whether this was the moment for the present at tempt. Still, as the House had determined to un dertake it, be would rot have withheld his support or assistance, if more candour and fair dealing had been displayed by Government in the transaction.— The last condition was open to all kind of difficulty and abuse. Suppose trustees differed in opinion, or Stock was transferred ostensibly to holders in Europe or America, why were persons taking advantage of this evasion to be in a better situation than former, or less experienced parties? He should also be glad to know how it was proposed to class the different dis sentients according to the receipt of the letters, the form of which the Right Hon. Gentleman said would be issued by the Bank? They would, of course, be all written at the lat est moment ; an d was it further fair to impose a species of proscription on property so situated, which would render it unsaleable in the market? Such were the difficulties arising out of attempts to deviate from the straight forward course on an occasion like the present. He would put it to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel),whose candour would on all occasions stand the test of the scrutinizing observatiou of his political opponents, whether this new mode, affecting the title of the Fund owner was either consistent with public faith or the character of the country ? The money had been bor rowed to be repaid when it was no longer expedient to pay the interest. Offer an exchange, or fulfil the other obligation ; but we had no right, until we were in a position to guarantee the fixed payment, to injure the interest of the Stockholder, or alter the tide by which he held his property. Mr. WILLIAMS observed, that from the year 1749 to 1792, about five millions of the National 1 Debt had been redeemed ; but, from the latter pe riod up to the pre,ent moment, no farther reduction of that Debt had teen effected; but, on the contrary, it had been increased from 229,000,0001. to above 800,000,0001. Therefore he thought it could not be said that the establishment of the Sinking Fund had operated very beneficially for the country. He en tertained very considerable doubt as to the policy of the scheme now suggested. Of those persons who had money in the 5 per Cents. upwards of 50,000 held sums, he understood, under 10001. The greater i p art of these individuals con s i s t e d o f servants, w h o had laid by trifling savings, tradesmen who had ' amassed a little money, and a number of women and children, whose whole support was derived from the i interest they received from this particular fund. The I proposed plan would press hard upon the 50,000 per, • sons, as stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer td be holders of small amounts of Stock. Another ob jection to it was, that, instead of reducing, it added seven millions to the amount of the National Debt, to redeem which would require six years of the 1,200,0001. of which the country was to be annually relieved—(Hear). Mr. MABERLEY asked, if those who dissented would have the liberty of selling their Stock ? TheCHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, they would still possess the power of transferring the Stock, but considered as Stock to be paid off, and subject to payment in the order in which it stood on the list. Mr. MABERLEY then said, that he was most anxious that the plan. should be carrie.l into effect, but he was of opinion that it was impossible all parties interested should have time sufficient to signify the's dissent under the proposed limitations. Within the period of sixteen days war might be declared by Rus sia against the Porte, in which case.a great fall in the 4. percents. now at 98, would take place. flethought if the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not wish to take an unfair advantage, he would agree to an ex tension of the period for dissent to the tiOch of March. _ _ Mr. RlCAlillo said, it would very much facili tate the plan, if such holder; of Five per Cents. as assented to the terms proposed by the Right honourable Gentleman could know at what time the transfer to the Four per Cents. was to take place. The question of the dividends might at first sight offer some difficulty; but this -difficiilty was more apparent than real, because the very same dividend which was given to a per son holding 1001. in the Five per Cents. might be given to a person holding 1051. in the Four per Cents. If this Steck were quickly transferred, the natural consequence would be to raise the price of it in the market; and as persons would be Induced V/ speculate in it front the advantage of a 'Mall but quick prohr, the operation, from this circumstance, would he much f teilitated. The Right honourable Gentleman would, in, his opinion, do weU if he explained very explicitly the mode In which ti:emoney was to be paid off to persons who dissented, svhetfitr alphabe tically, by lot, or in the orderist which the letters were reet ire '. It was quite evident that persons having an option, and who were in doubt whether they might or might not h..vt: made a bad barges, would not decide sill the latest moment. Mr. WILSON said, that however expedient this no gip . . might be with a view to the reduction of taxation, still If that, were a class of porticos span whom it pressed with peculiar hard. ship, it was incumbent upon the. House to mitigate its stv:dby much as possible. The interest of this Fund was not • , :ay .4 Are - ally -