Star. — London, England, 1810-12-28 00:00:00

•or illegal 4. or not sanctioueit as it afterwards was— what must liav'e become of at those various Acts to 'which I have alluded? If evt it were thoeWielouht tub all thOie proceedings must have fallen lo the ground, and. must have commenced anew. But the fact teas the reverse ; all these Bills went leken up in the stages in which they were found by theeecond .irfr.aammisstoners, and were afterwards passed under its authority, and under these Acts, so passed, a conside rable portion of property was now held. These c;r -•-?r• cumstances proved that a full Parliamentary autho rity, duly sanctioned by the King, was given to the proceedings adopted, in the first instance, by both • }louses—indeed, it was constituting it a complete Act of Parliament. With this great and incontro vertible authority before our eyes, can we hesitate a 4. moment as to the course of proceeding we ought to t pursue ? as to our decision upon the legal mode of Slling up the deficiency which now exists in the Go ' vOrnment, and of giving effect to the Royal autho rity when we have the deliberate sanction of both Mouses upon the case before us, not only this, but -• the full aut:,ority of the three branches of the Legis lature ?—Upon this view of the case, my Lords, I pm at a I , lss to conceive how there can exist any dif ference of opinion. As to the question of future pro ceedings, I mean not at present to observe. I wish that the question of the Resolution now before you ahould rest upon its own merits. I think they involve one of the greatest and most important questions ever discussed in Parliament—they involve the most essen • tiel rights of the Legislature—they involve the most .ossential rights of the Throne—and in these conside rations they involve every thing Most sacred in the religion of the country, and every thing appertaining to the reit and property of the country. Their *doption w•luld, in my established conviction, afford best security for the welfare and prosperity of the I.4ottntry, and afford the most effctnal protection to ~^"die rights and interests of all. Under these impres . lions, and upon the grounds upon which I lave tres ,! passed on the Committee' at such length, I feel my -o.4etlf perfectly warranted, as well as actuated by every 'consideration of duty to my Sovereign and the cowl ) try, to call upon your Lordships, by your vote, to give these Resolutions the great sanction and autho :e- tit) , of the Parliament of the United Kingdom of !'.Great Britain and Ireland." • Earl STANHOPE rose, to propo.e an amend -. inent to the second Resolution. He should not vote o' few tharresoNsion an the grounds stated by the noble a.l Secretary of State .(Lord Liverpool). That Noble • Earl complained that he had interrupted him. It was not his intention to interrupt -the Noble Earl in the course of his speech,tint merely to remind himat the • moment that the doctrines he was laying down were , e `contrary to Acts of Parliament. He should have been 'sorry to have interrupted the Noble Secretary in the ,t tourse'he war pUrsuing ; for otherwise, the House o would not have had the pleasure of hearing the O strange assertions, thesextraordinary positions, which • the Noble Secretary had thought proper to bring for- Ia: Ward. Great stress had been laid by the Noble Se aretary on the virtue of the Great Seal, and he seem- ••.. 0 ed much to rely do the authority of James 11. Their Lordships would recollect, that the Great Seal had been carried awayley this Very James 11. and hence they might be warned of the vigilance with which it -was necessary to guard it. If tl.eir Lordships would • idlow him, he would put,: case :--Suppose a thief to takeaway the Orem Seal ; suppose the Noble Secre r tan! himself to Inks it away, (he begged pardon for • the supposition), and to affix it to an instrument 3 treating a Duke cf Flushing; suppose him also to affix t it to an act for granting to himself a pension to any • *moult he should think proper, might he not likewise put it to a Bill of Indemnity to screen him from the consequences of what he had just before been doing ? On these points the Noble Earl seemed to be very . learned indeed, but not quite so learned ashis legal friend James 11. The Act-of Parliament to which he wish. ed the Noble Sectietary to look, was no less an act • than that for regulating the succession to the Crown. • —Lit the Noble Secretary refer to theprovisions of • that Act, and then he would ask him, whether he modd bow to the authority of his friend limes 11. . 40 1 a• preference to the authority of this Act, of Parlia 014sent ? What authority could the Great Seal carry I:! ,*ith it, when u..ed in the manner which is now inten- c oded to be proposed? Could it have any authority :••- r ,4l9tigeraltan until the successor to the crown should „eve orders to the contrary ?—ln cases of illness of . the Sovereign, he knew of no Act of Parliament whicli gave that power. It was riot in the power of .., : oitnjects to give it ; and therefore he cansidered.the ,-.4 4 osolittion, in its present state, to be incomplete.- 7 ,,T o be Noble Earl here read the Resolution, and pro f wised to amend it by substituting atter the word " oeqtrire," the following words : " and until the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, shall Jukve before' them sufficient and satisfactory proof of the fact, that his Majesty is so far recovered as to be perfectly able to discharge all the functions of the re • gal authority." What objection could there be to this ? It had already been decided, that the two Houses are competent to supply the detect in the exercise of the royalfunctions ; that the power resiJed• in the two Houses, and no where eh.e. That the Privy Copncil hail no such power. The only authority, therefore, to resort to, and to be guided by, was :he authority of P•arliarnent He might also put the case of a dif ference of opinion among the physicians—two of them fright think that the King was not so well as to be abie to discharge the functions of the Sovereign, and others of them, even four, might express a different o;)iiiion--tbeY niight even come to be unanimous on this point-unil then be might be thought to involve so difficulty. • This reminded him of a story told hwy. Jodge Buller of . 4 conversation with a oonntry Squire . •eaut Judge Barnett. The Spike thought there could be no difficulty in discharging the office of Judges, for they ,lul ( t ally to decide between black.and white Mot certainly there could be no difficulty in their , task, ,observed Judge Burnett, if all they had to do was to distinguish between black and white ; but that ss!as out the case--all the difficulty lay in judging of . c ,the .greys. Such would be the embarrassment of their i,,l,,,,mdships in the prelent case. The great difficulty ~fits thee precise thing which the two Houses b a 4 tip4lti r awld .that they coldd not decide upon but t.by ;isioptitr i t; the amendment he had just proposed. gusstion was then put unon Lord Stanhope's . • poreildrAent, which was rejected without a. division. f Lord HOLLAND theo.tose, to move ,the, previ hilitWaiurstlon. It was not AllititerktiOLl now p auswgr. • •,..s • 42 • N • • . 4 all the oltgereatlens and used by the No beir o teretti e he enter into a d' r assion 1 einisinita. Regent , W under t A ditirreqce oPopunon on corded tut the Journals, and question .of whether the'ri, fapparent, or otherwise ? i V. AS i 1141111411110 Houses ; heir appareni ; others agai He would not attempt to opinions, though they migL_ into lone conclusion, that the sole right was vested in the IPrince. But to avoid all discussion of that question he should move the previous question. If that was agreed to, he should then move another resolution, for 'taking such measures to supply the defect in the per sonal exercise of the royal functions as the interests i of the realm might require, and which should be con formable to the principles of the hereditary monarchy and the law Of succession to tho Crown. His Lord ship concluded with moving—" That the House do resume, and that the question on the Resolution be now put." This motion was also rejected without a division. The second Resolution was then put, and carried without any further opposition. On the question being put to agree to the third re solution, Lord El OLLANDagain rose to propose an amend. ment to that Resolution, and in what he had to offer on this point, he would endeavour to keep as close as possible to the question. In some of the observe- Cons oldie Noble Secretary he was disposed to ac quiesce, but not in all. The Noble Earl endeavoured to distinguish between the political capacity of the Sovereign, and his ability for the personal exer cise of the Royal functions. To a certain degree, perhaps the, distinction might be just ; he was not however, prepared to say that it was, or that it was not. If lie rightly understood it, it would in fer that there was a power somewhere to exercise that right, and that it could not be delegated to another. He did not imagine that in the whole of our history there could be found a single instance of it. Could any man assume to exercise the prerogatives of the Crown in favour of the people, for whose interests they were originally conferred ? Such a right might, perhaps, be assumed by Parliament. Yes; but it must be by a full Parliament—a Parliament consist ing of the three ea-ordinate branches of the Constitu-• tion—the Commons, Lords, and King ; by some person properly authorized br such a Parliament so to act. The Noble Lord seemed to insinuate, that such was the power of Parliament, in such cases as the present, that they might chuse a Regent not the next of blood ; that they might confer the Regency on the lowest individual. In this he might agree ; but that would not be an Act of Parliament. If the Noble Earl looks to such acts of Parliament, then he loses sight of the question altogether. Such a mode of proceeding would, in no sense, be analogous to the Constitution of the country : and however he might disapprove of wresting that right from the Prince of Wales, he would contend that there was no instance of it, when there was full competence to ex ercise these functions. But it is said, every Regent should be put under restrictions. This did not hold good in the present instance: Even a full Parliament, under circumstances like the present, should not im pose any limitations or restriction's on the Regent ; no, not even temporary restrictions.. It would be imposing restrictions, not for the security of the peo ple, but as an insult to the person in whom the power of the Regent was to be vested. He felt that he stood up in that House for the peoplof Englaud, and not for the Royal Branches ; but, at the same time, he would contend, that none but a full Parliament could fetter the Regency with limitations and restrictions. There might be restrictions imposed on Councils of Regency, but these restrictions did not affect the right. So far for the principles laid down by the Noble Earl. He should now more particularly examine the third resolution : it says, that it is the right of the two Houses to supply the defect in the personal exercise of the royal functions ; that is to say, no doubt, that they have that power, but that they cannot exercise it without the assistance of the Great Seal. This is a most curious sort of logic—certainly a mode of rea soning.not regulated in the usual forms of syllogism. What is it but to say, I have two legs, and am fully able to walk, therefore I must have a crutch. If chit , two Houses have the power of providing for the (ficiency in the present instance, why not exercise it ? why have recourse to some person or thing in order to pass a Bill enabling them so to act ? When that person or thing is so brought forward and employed, the mode of giving the Royal Assent is made impe rative in him, but would not that be in the nature or form of a Rov,el Assent ? To get rid of those diffi culties, it was his intention to move that the Prince .4 Wales be requested to take upon himself the Re gency during the illness of his Royal Father, in be half and in the name of the King, and then propose to the Prince that be abstain from all powers not ' necessary under all the circumstances of the moment. This would be the proper manner of proposing what limitations or restrictions should be imposed on the power of the Regent. But the question of restric tions did not now properly come under discussion— the question now merely was, whether the House should proceed by way of Bill or by the mode of Ad dress, and which of the two mo t ies•was most conso nant to the theory and the practice of the Constitu tion, which was the more convenient, indeed neces sary, under the circumstances of the present case?— Of all modes of proceeding the mode by Bill was, in his opinion, the most unconstitutional—and he agreed with his Noble Friend (Lord Stanhope), that all the 'principles and precedents referred to by the Noble Secretary of state were wholly inapplicable, or di rectly adverse to the mode of proceeding by Bill.— And first, in a constitutional point of view, he would I ask, what is the Royal Assent ? or what is an Act of ' Parliament ?or how do we make a law ? Nothing may appear more easy or plain—and the question re- I minded him' of an ingenious pamphlet, entitled An tieipation, in which it is proposed to examine the British Constitution. It is stated to be a three-told Constitution, consisting of King, Lords, and Com mons. In that publication it is made matter of ridi cule seriously to examine a thing so obvious an 4 plain., But what was there considered as so ridicu lous, the Noble Lords opposite him now stand up se riously to defend. An Act of Parliament is a tripar tite indepture. If that be so, then they must now liaui ~S . for the person absent, or he wfll( acting. But vo, ;hat will not be the. take upon them tb act as his attor 83d ti Henry 1 1 / 4 7111. and' the Ist of tlta law of this realty that the Royal given to Bills - br • the Commission signed b y hi S s own ereigh provided, that if any person assert °v Parliament may make a law, the , asserting should be liable to the ptnal , premeeire. How do. these apply to the now proposed ?—But it wilt be said that - the n co icid nces e w se h c iic i h t proposed w he as,buw ab e l re e to :richb lecti w on ei s g ; h h t ; still was e s objection!. His plan was at least more expeditious and more candid. It did not carry with it the marks of art, cunning and contrivance. All principles and precedents were in favour of it, and altogether hostile to the other mode proposed. The Noble Lord then proceeded to examine the precedents down from the year 1641, to the Revolution and restoration. All tended to prove that the most convenient and expedi tious mode of proceeding was by address. But their Lordships are told that the Throne was then vacant. Yes, but the Address was carried up, before the Houses had declared the Throne vacant. Surely the Noble Secretary must have trusted to want of indus try and diligence in that part of the House, when he attempted to impose such doctrines on them as he had this night attempted to establish. Such was not the conduct, nor the wisdom of our ancestors, their mode of proceeding was candid, open, speedy, and explicit. There was nothing in it ungracious or disgusting, as in the mode that would now be adopted. This was his way of considering the question without the influ ence of any bias, or partiality for any recent transae tions—he would nct at least rest his opinion upon an incomplete transaction, like that of 1788—a transac tion and precedent which rested merely on the au thority of those who acted in it, and which had neither the sanction of wisdom or experience to coun tenance and confirm it. The Noble Lord next re ferred to the proceedings of the Irish Houses of Par liament in 1788. They had approved of the pro; ceeding by Address, and their conduct would not be thought wrong, merely because it was disapproved by the Lord Lieutenant for the time. And here he could not help observing, and the people of Ireland will, perhaps, observe it with disgust, that so little attention or respect was paid to them on the present occasion ; that not even one of their Representatives was appointed on the Committee for examining the Physicians—a mark of disrespect which he should not be surprised to see them come and complain of at their Lordships' Bar. If he looked to the present state of the country, which was so alarming in every point of view, he must consider the delay that has occurred as most blameable—already it was double the time that had been so employed at the Revolu tion. In the mean time the Noble Secretary and his colleagues have in the eye of open day usurped the Monarchy of Great Britain, and the regal power is kept out of the hands of him who should in every re. spect be looked to, and called upon to exercise it, and into whose hands it is the universal wish and opi nion of the country that it ought to devolve. How , did our relations stand with respect to America ? How were we situated with respect. to Spanish America ? Did we ad.lvise an amicable mediation between the Mother Country and the Spanish Colonies ? He thought he could perceive that the Noble Lord who presided over that department (Lord Wellesley) did not pretend to take upon himself the same power which his colleagues have affected to assume. In justice to his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, in justice to their Lordships' House, and to the peo. ple at large, the suspension of the Royal functions cannot be longer continued.- Whether his Majesty happily recover or not, some proceeding must be adopted to provide in future for the melancholy oc currence under which the country now labours.— Their Lordships owed it to their count! y—they owed it to themselves—to institute a sever scrutiny into many transactions which have been stated upon oath to have passed since his Majesty was first afflicted with the calamity under which he now labours. Has it not appeared that Commissions have been signed by his Majesty, when, perhaps, from what has been stated by some of the Physicians, he was under the pressure of that complaint which gives such ascen dancy to one mind over that of another ? He was ready to confess it, that it was a shame to the Admi nistration of which he had been an unworthy Mem ber, that they bad taken no measures for providing for such an emergency as the present, and which cut short the country of all regal authority. The duty was a delicate one, no doubt ; but it was a duty which must be performed. The Noble Lord then concluded by moving, that an Address be presented to His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, in the words and form which he had opened to their Lord ships in the body of his speech. The Duke of NORFOLK seconded the Address, which he conceived the only constitutional mode by which the Parliament could make known their senti ments to his Royal Highness. With respect to the Great Seal, about which so much had been said by the Noble Earl, that was a piece of metal and wax which, unless the Sovereign authority was in force, had no effect. The two branches of the Legislature now assembled were indubitably competent to vote themselves Keepers of that sea l, and it any act of le gislative authority was necessary to be done, the use of the seal must be in them. In point of fact, the two Houses of Parliament were like the Republic of Genoa, ab s olute for the time beyond all dispute ; they were to be regarded as .111.1 g, Lords, and Com mons. The Noble Duke observed, that in ;looking back to the precedent of 1688, he could not but stn th tt the Parliament were placed in a similar situation with the then Parliament, for at that time it could not be well then foreseen that the country would have to complain of a tyrant King, who fortunately, by his abdication, had prevented much inconvenience.— The Parliament, as now, the Throne being, as h must contend, vacant, proceeded to address the Prince of Orange, the next in succession. At that day, however-, the Crown, by the Constitution, de volved on the infant Prince, but they did not go so far, In adopting the Address of his Noble Friend, .hey would pursue that course in the present exigency which would be most safely pursued for the benefit of the State. The Duke of SUSSEX, in risiv to concur with the Noble Mover of the Address, wished to caution the House against the unnecessary delay and su.spenc orrietiats itat had Loon ii person to set of State ; • led from ac where t :irt • they will 1 ✓ t e present 4 ,ances, y the 83d n that head already Willi it is made th Ind he would notAt t !tieel to Assent shall be give right was vested in Ore be person, or by a Coy Sou* contended the` rlht It has ever been pri ; others that it was in the that the Houses o ain, that it was in the people. person so asserting o reconcile all these jarring ties of x premanir night be all reconciled into measure now propo vrhiek perhaps naigist ultimately arise fa the p , of the proposed Bill for providing for the the royal functions; that anxiety witich he fi` L : ‘ ,' a a m C i o ty i nii whichfte (4itic:t's:.:- equalled by nothing more than by the surros 7 w ! he, in common with the rest of his Majcsty'4 jests, experienced foi d th s e in c u al , the 'suspension of the functions of the "—Six weeks had now , passed since the ttinc: : .:r i Royalty were, as the Miniascas had inforaiti 14 . House, suspended, not aurimi bed by both branches of the L ei L t „ , 4 . had assumed those functions. His Royal declared that be was most jealous and Anxious that, 34 far as in his power lay, his Majesty's late Itliciaul should not continue to exercise those functions whit' they had so unjustly usurped. Ile w as decidedly opinion, founded on the clearest convict; their conduct was highly reprehensible. It would b e found, upon referring to the Minutes of the s, Committee, that he had cogent reasons fcr. delay, and he nw- thought it his most sacred d a y to call the attention; of the House to those Mi. mites. By the evidence of the Physicians, it wa s ep . parent that the malady with which his Majesty r afflicted was established beyond doubt, anal:grin-0 him to state thus much ; but there came out this a d, ditional and important fact, that there had not ' 0 ,. ( , ) any personal commuuicat'on between his Majesty a n d his Ministers during that period. It likenoe 4p. peared, that not any of the branches of the R.• va l milt' had approached his Majesty. House then suppose that his Majesty had any roll his own ? Would the House endur..? to be ;.1 t!,,t the kingly office was entire, becatic been bold enough to take upon them-elves t!!( a ,: m i_ nistratioa of that office ? What satistacti‘a they have that what the Noble Earl had state,' w as the fact ? How could they be sore that und a such circumstances his Majesty seculd Live dp. proved of what they have done ? His Royal Fitg!.. ness could not consent to agree to such s i lec tl , lative conclusions, founded upon such rotten fa brics. In the estimation which he had formed of L i e situation of Ministers, they were, aceklrding to the Constitution of the Country, the confidential sorv.i:,:s of his Majesty, to take from him his comm. n !s, to act under them for the welfare ci the Country, for the due observance of which they wee undoubtedly answerable to Parliament. With this view cf their situation of responsibility, he dared tl7ern to assert that his Majesty would have advised those measures which they have pursued. It was in evidence that they had not approached him for the last eight week., and none of the Royal Family had been allot, ed to come near Ms Royal Person—[Here his Royal High. ness was very much affected.] His Royal Highness claimed pardon of their Lordships for the expressions of agitation which he had evinced, is alluding to the delicate situation in which the Royal Family were placed. He contended, that if it was proved the Lam Ministers had exercised a power which they had no right to, they were culpable ; but even had they I been frightened, hesitated, or stumbled, they would have been equally blam able for allowing the MA gistracy to be inactive. A blow more serious had not been struck since the Revolution. The Sovereign, by the Constitution, was a sole corporation, he nevi dies, he enjoyed, as it were, a political immortality. In allowing the authority to slumber, they had coin. I mitted a regicide act against the Chief Magistracy. The country had been amused and disappointed by them with fallacious reports of the state of his Ma jesty's health. In expressions of affection for his family, his Royal Highness equally participated with his relatives, and he was satisfied that nothing ,would so confirm that union, which was so desi. rable, than the adoption of the Address. He could not separate the idea of the welfare of his Sore• reign and of his country. What affected the one met of necessity concern the other. If the Constitution was in danger, the danger alike appertained to his Royal Highness's Father and Sovereign. Ile stood up in defesee of the Monarchical Government, and to this House he looked with the utmost confidence for support. If the House would support the Con stitution against the encroachments of Ministers, they must sio so by upholding the rights of the Crown, which would thereby preserve the dearest interest of the people. Ministers, however, had made a shield for themselves of the Sovereign Authority, instead of themselves shielding their Royal Master. They 'fiscl in fact endeavoured to raise • their own power on the ruins of their Royal Master. In what situation was the country placed in the present crisis. It the liouse proceeded by Bill to provide for the exercise of the Royal Functions, the States would assure to these selves.all the right of legislation. If the States, there" tore, could select a person. it would be dlficult t oppose the election of such person to fill the va cancy. The Constitution forbade such usurpation, and the two Houses, being equally bound to Er faith with the other, would not find much difficulty in the election, which, by the htreditary succession, was vested in the Heir Apparent. With r espect to the restrictions endeavoured, or at least submit ted, for impositions, those must not, could not, he tolerated. The Regent must be invested with fell powers, in order that the Government should be efficient. , He must not be a mockery of regal state and posver, but an efficient magistrate with those powers usually given to the King. His Royal High uess, in support of his proposition, referred to autho rities, in which provision was made in this respetfe — For the space of eighteen years it had been his fate to reside on the Continent, where he had watched the progress of revolution, which, with rapid strides, bad been hastening the downfal of empires, of states, w the almost entire subjugation of modern BusoPe- In that progress, he had invariably found that the first step to revolution was the bringing into contempt the Magistracy of the realm, by injurieig the reputation of the Sovereign in the minds of the people. Agallt l it this sort of danger he Warned the House. The peolLe possessed an excellent Constitution, which was origi nally erected on the basis of a glorious revolution, which' time and perfection had rendered more bone tiful ; if any encroachment was therefore suffered on any one of the three brAnclies of that Constitution, the total destruction of that grand wisdom of man would be the conse que nce. h this feeling he slould coecl.h.le wiih praying the a:- tentitm of their Lordship to th twist imvrtan tc,r ; cumstance, respecting the st4te of the country; I. : vital principles of the Constitution one gone it t 4 Magistracy were brought into cliw - ellttle , An d _ he cu. net do better than by quieting a le worl , ut •.);...e 6 • - , ). :11 st Seriet tear : Ancl. Tv dt [I ..1 Inrit e Si writ as a ers o iatei bdio iczt CI Pic the hit in