Star. — London, England, 1831-03-05 00:00:00

«;:at lie had been saying was sound in principle, many inestimable be. re sits must flow from a reform of the representation of that House._ In the first place, it was the only means of averting the evils to which i., had before alluded as the necessary offspring of the danger arising from discontent,—graduating into disaffection—and from ti again • g raduating into complete insurrection. (Hear, hear, hear, esr • hear.) Would any man venture to tell him that the remedy i l 'ot that discontent lay in the hands of those whose maxim it was that the;, and not the people themselves, were the best judges of the people's i n terests ? (Hear.) They did not know the people's interests as well as ley did themselves, for if they did, they would know that the gratifi. 3tion of their legitimate wishes was an enjoyment to which the people h a d a jest tide. (Hear.) Among those legitimate wishes, a reform f that house just now partook of the torrent fury of a passion,— .t, that to refuse it was not only unwise but dangerous. (Hear, tsar, bear.) Another advantage of which a reformed Parliament could be the parent would be, the great practical influence which it could exercise on the minds of the people in opening their eyes to a :onviction of their best interests, and this it would acquire from its e ffording great facilities for the conveyance to it of the feelings and welts of the people (hear). He did not mean by this that that house 'should be a mere echo of the popular will,—that its discussions and lecisions should be guided by every enthusiasm, indignation, or zeal, the public mind—hut that the public mind should possess a ready -.whence within its walls (hear, hear). Would any man tell him .hat such was the case under the present system ? Had not abuses been habitually persevered in, on account of the tardy influ. ince which public opinion had on the acts of the legislature? Was it not true that wars had been protracted for years after the people were sick of them, and pined after peace ? (Hear). Was it not true that a system of official misapplication of the public money had been p ersevered in, for want of an e ffi cient popular control ? Was it not true that the slave trade had been persevered in years after public opinion had held it up to scorn and indignation Was it not 'rue that abuses in the criminal law were persevered in till the feelings of the people, long awake to their enormity, were roused to a pitch that a remedy could not be longer withheld ? Were not all these facts true of the present system, and were they not incompatible with a re armed parliament ? Why then hesitate to effect this reform ! Could there—to quote the happy language uttered that evening by the right hon. Secretary for Ireland—be a more dangerous aggravation of on evil, than to wilfully delay granting what you could not much longer refuse, and to add to the demand of the public mind that resolution of despair which would thanklessly wrest from you what might now be gracefully tendered and received ? (Loud cries of " blear.") Could any man shut his eye to the fact, that to delay an efficient measure of parliamentary reform was to aggravate all those evils of which its advocates maintained it to be the remedy, and of which its opponents declared it to be the precursor ? The great machine of public opinion was making, and would make, its way in spite of all ob stacles ; therefore it behoved them to prevent a dreadful crash against those who would fain impede its course, by widening the passage, so :hat it could pass on steadily and with safety to all : (cheers.) Now he was not so absurd as to hold out the reform he was then &deo :ailing as the panacea of the ills of the country. By no means ; they rho thus represented it, and there were such, were mischievous pm. tenders, if not designing traders, in public delusion. (Hear, hear.) But he considered it the essential condition of the future safety and prosperity of the country, and he considered it as a great measure which could not be much longer delayed, and of which every delay was a tenfold aggravation of the evils which all must admit called for re medy. It was worse than idle to say the present cry for parliamentary reform was but a tempuraty ebullition oc popular excitement—for it was the expression of a long felt public grievance, to which existing circumstances might communicate a force of tone, hut could not generate. It was true that the demand for reform was usually louder in periods of distress and of political excitement, as it was also true that the late memorable transactions in neighbouring states might haveadded to that excitement. But it was no less true, that the demand for reform was never dead, even in the calmest periods, and that renewed, it was like a giant after sleep, with increased strength and influence. In or. dinary times, the tide of discontent might flow on without sensibly endangering existing institutions, but only that it might in times of excitement rush on with a spring-tide fury, overwhelming all obstacles. (Cheers.) Therefore let them watch the tide while they could, and avoid the consequences of its impeded fury. They had been told, and he believed truly, that had, no later than 1828, the franchise of East Retford been transferred to Birmingham, there would not exist the present excitement with respect to reform. But. unfortunately for its opponents, it had not ; and now, the cup being full, a single drop made an overflow. (Hear, hear.) The people's just expectations were then rased only to be disappointed ; the smouldering embers had now caught flame, and must either end in the destruction or purification of the in. stitutions which had created them. (Hear, hear.) There were three circumstances which he conceived had hastened the dangerous heated state of the public mind, which the opponents of reform would now madly aggravate. The first was the contumelious treatment, in that House and in another place, of the Bill for transferring the franchise of East Retford to—as was originally proposed, and as the people had just grounds for expecting—to one of the large unrepresented manufacturing towns. (Hear, hear.) The next was the abomi nations of the late general election; and the third was the mon strous proceedings in Newark, and analogous mockeries of represents. lion. ( Hear.) To these might be added the absurd declaration of the hor. member for Edinburgh, respecting a reform of the representation in szutiand ; that the people of that country were indifferent on the sub. net, or content with that system in force. What wits the consequence of this declaration ? Why, that the petitions which formerly received hut 8.000 or 9,000 signatures, now were signed by the intelligence and r.:speetability of that country to the number of 21,000 persons ; one half of whom, before the declaration, never had signed any petition of the sort. (Hear, hear.) On this point he could speak, not only from his private knowledge, but from those official enquiries which he had felt it to be his duty to institute—and therefore he could not be gain said—and lie thought it a matter well worthy of the attention of these who shut their eyes in a truly blind obstinacy upon the progress of events beyond their own immediate circle. It was true that the lawless thirst for innovation, but not reform of which he had made mention, was not yet discernible in Scotland, (with the exception of a temporary disturbance connected with a demand for higher wages in the ret a mbourhood of Glasgow, the country was perfectly calm and peace :Me); but let them beware that they did not aggravate the demand for reform of the Scotch people, now so rife, into that species of discontent which fitted men to coalesce with those lawless prowlers on good order .:hick ahoundedlin times of great unredressed public grievances. The people of Scotland had a preservative against such unions in their cha racteristic good sense and intelligence—of which, perhaps, a better proof could not he cited than the evidence given before a committee a that house, some two or three years tem, by a couple of half starved weavers of Glasgow, which the Society of Useful Knowledge, in their late tract concerning the advantages to the poorer classes of machinery and the consequent evils of destroying it—evidence which evinced the soundest knowledge of the subject, and would be creditable to cry elms of society. The witnesses declared their sense of the ad vattaaes to the public of all improvements for the means of facilitat. ing production; and. therefore. deprecated the then popular out- I my against machibery, adding, that they placed their hopes of relief from their distress in the claims upon the wealthy, which their good conduct and industrious habits entitled them to. (Hear. hear, hear.) And this brought him hack to a point which he was nearly overlooking, which, if true, as he thought it was, was important—he meant the advantage of a reformed parliament, in disabusing the less enlightened of mischievous delusions over the pre. sent system. At present that class which constituted the most numerous portion of the condolence of the more open boroughs and counties must naturally feel, when told of the zeal with which their grievances were I advocated in that house, and of the profitless Inuit, nevertheless. which . 1 , that tile cause of all their grievances lay in the system of mis. gOVCTIII:,ent under which they had so long laboured. ( Hear, hear.) Ti e . ()maim me of such an impression evidently we', 'hat there woo Ito remedy for the distresses and grievances of the working classes, under the present system of government—(hear); and that the messenger which they had sent to the land of promise had found all bar. renness and no fertility in it. (Hear.) But from the confidence which 'hey must necessarily place in a virtually reformed parliament, they ti mild learn that there were evils incident to their lot, which no legia laoire could prevent or remedy, and they would consequently bow with patience to the ways of an immutable Providence. (Hear.) They would earn besides, that much slander had been uttered to them of the feel ings of the higher classes towards Omit condition and their sufferings. And indeed, if on no other ground, he hailed the appearance of the hen. member for Preston in that house. That hon. niember would, ' etas sure, ave.admit that whatever mi g h t h been his preposses. %tons on entering it. that it bestowed a sympathetic ear to the griev. anees of the people. (" No, no." from Mr. Hunt—cheers and l.iughter.) Well, then, if such were the hon. member's opinion, he 11 -pert they would soon disabuse him of his prejudice. ( Hear.) He %mild admit, at least. that the sufferings of the people were not now made a matter of taunt, or jest, or MITP•3I, hut that they were listened at respectfully. ('• Hear." front Mr. Iltint) ard he hoped the hon. inemlar would state the fact to that numerous hotly out of doors, over 4h!ch he exercised so great an influence. One wend with reference to ghat hail been said by the right hon. hart. ( reel) opposite. touching the hreat of a dinolution of that house in the event of a failure of the m eat rrieseere. The right hon. bar. reproached them with having sur entkred retie judgment to their tears. instead of their fears to their agginert. Now the difference between the right honourable hart. and advocates of the measure was this—that we, the latter, are afraid 'T the consequences to the country of denying the people their just Ins—they, the opponents. of the consequence to themselves A granting them. (Hear, hear, hear, hear.) We are afraid nut to rin justice to the people, while they profess to apprehend that a tnaceerien to the people of their just rights' ust end in the perversion of their moral feelings. (Loud cries of Hear.) We propose& remedy for not only admitted ills, but a preventive of far greater, which they soald reject from a blind perception of their own and the national in t. rests. We would grant the people their just demands, were it only to I rereca cur being compelled, at a I etc period, granting them their un just onte.—while they would perpe wait a system which can only end m tulsion, and still greater ill, than they, or perhaps any man, can ( Hear, hear.) Let them pause ere it be too late. The right hon. gentleman sat down amid loud cheers, having thanked the house for the attention with which It had listened to him. Mr. HUNT having been alluded to by the right hon. gentleman, I felt it right to say, that he had been misunderstood. What he had said was, that in his mind every man liable to be called out to serve in the militia should have a vote for the representatives who made that call. Ile never could mean to extend the franchise to paupers, as the law of England disqualified all paupers from voting. Mr CROKER said, that if, under any circumstances, he had risen to address so full a house at so late a period of so protracted a debate, he should have been aware that he should stand much in need of the indulgence of the house ; but on the present occasion, he felt it more than ordinarily necessary to request its patient and indulgent atten tion, whilst he endeavoured to deliver his opinion on this most im portant subject. He assured the house, that if he had not been thoroughly convinced that this was the most impor tant, the most vital question that had ever ben agitated within its walls, there were personal reasons in abundance which would have prevented him from addressing it. He had heard with great delight,— for delight was different from assent,—the eloquent and ingenious ad. dress which had just been delivered by the learned lord. He confessed, however, that there was one part of the learned lord's speech, which, in his opinion, might have been spared. He did not conceive it to be either parliamentary or prudent in the learned lord to cast insinuations against the hon. gentlemen who sat on the opposite side to himself, as if they were persona who deserved to be stigmatized for being members of those corrupt places which were about to be disfranchised, (hear), ar.d who were only by sufferance allowed to be poresent at that debate, to plead for what was technically called, a long day. The learned lord, with an authority which a place like his could alone give, had told them that the strict rules observed in courts of justice would exclude from the decision of this question a majority, if not the whole, of the gentlemen around him (Mr. Croker) who were opnoted to the proposition of the noble paymaster of his Majesty's forces. 'Now, with all submission, he would tell the learned lord that that was not the law of Parliament ; nay,more, that it was not the law of common sense ; and he would further tell him, that though he might have overlooked the observation, when coming from inferior authority, and might have treated it with what it deserved more than observation, yet out of respect to:the situation of the learned lord, he would give a reply to that observa tion, and would add to it this remark—that if he were surprised at hear. ing such an observation come from a gentleman of the learned lord's profession, he was doubly surprised at hearing it come from a gentle man in his situation, whose own seat in that house was of that descrip. tion which, as he had been told In the plain honest statement of the hon. member for Preston, was suspected of being more than fictitious. (Loud cheers from the opposition, in the midst of which) — Mr. KENNEDY rose to order. There had been presented against the return of the Lord-Advocate a petition, which had been referred to an election committee. He put it to the house whether it was usual for members, even of such authority as the ex-Secretary of the Admi- ralty (hear), to anticipate what might be the decision of the corn. mince sworn to try the merits of that petition. (Loud cries of " hear.") The SPEAKER said, that if he could have foreseen that the ob servation of the right hon. member on the floor would have been taken in the light which it had been taken, or that it had been intended in that light, he hoped that he should not have been backward in calling the right honourable member to order. The reason why he had not intemtpted the right honourable member on the score of order, de pended upon his understanding of what the right hon. meinber had said, and upon his knowledge of the right hon. member's intention in mak ing that statement. He understood the right hon. member to coin. plain of a statement made by the learned lord in his speech, that a certain number of members were to be disqualified from stating their opinions on this measure, because the boroughs fur which they then sat were to be disfranchised by it. Further than that, the right hon. gen. tleman not only wondered at the quarter from which the observation came, but also at its coming from a person in the learned lord's situa tion, inasmuch as the learned lord was himself returned to the house for a seat of this description, and must be aware that his right to his seat was disputed by others, inasmuch as it was even now forming the sub. ject of a contest before a committee. (Hear, hear.) lie did not conceive that any thing which had fallen from the right honourable member on the floor, could be interpretated as giving either a determination or a de cision on the merits of that petition, much less as haring been uttered with any intention of inflaming the feelings of such members as might be the sworn judges on that petition. (Hear, hear.) Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that lie should not have risen upon this point of order, if his apprehension of it had been the same as that of Mr. Speaker ; but he wished to remind the house that the right hon. member for Aldborough had said that the seat of the learned lord was suspected of being more than fictitious. It appeared to hint that such words ought not to he used of any member of Parliament whose right to his seat was to be tried before sworn judges on an election committee ; and therefore he thought that the right hon. gent. was not in order. .11Ir. KENNEDY said, that if he owed an apology either to the Speaker or to the House for the step which lie bad just taken, lie was ready to make it ; but, with all deference to the Speaker, he conceived that such language as the right honourabl: gentleman had used was calculated to mislead the judgment of gentlemen who might have to sit as sworn judges on the petition against the learned lord's return. — (Cries of " Chair.") Mr. CHOKER said, that he received without impatience the Inter. ruption of the hon. and learned member for Ayr. He wished, how. ever, that the hon. and learned member had been more vigilant before he interrupted him, and he trusted that the lesson which he had just received would render him more vigilant hereafter. He trusted also, that when he heard it represented that hon. gentlemen on his (Mr. Croker's) tide of the house were sitting there as fictitious nitre. sentatives (hear, hear, from the opposition.) his legal knowledge, his personal candour, and his parliamentary jealousy, would not induce him to interfere when he heard such a representation hurled back upon those who invented it. (Hear, hear, hear.) It appeared to him that the most remarkable point in the speech of the learned lord was the boldness with which he essayed, and the ability with which he overturned, the chief statements of the speech of the noble lord who had asked leave to bring in this bill. The learned lord began by asking, " Is it possible that at this time of day you can be debating on your constitution as it stood in the days of the Tudors or the Stuarts ?—don't you know that in the last 40. or I should rather say, in the last 2 years, new lights have sprung up in the world, new principles have gone abroad, new elements of consideration have been opened ; and that it is upon the experience of the last 40, or perhaps I should rather sae, of tit: last 25 years, that the question now before the house is to be decided ?" But the noble Paymaster of the Forces went back not only to the times of the Stuarts and the Tudors, but even to the times of Edward I. and to the statute " de tallagio non concedendo." He showed his - learning—he exhibited to the house the ancient form of Parliaments—and he held up his hands and implored the people of England to revert to their ancient constitution. The learned lord however, came with a second, and he would add with a better sight, and said, " There is no question here about any statute of Edward I.—the question here is of the French revolution—of the Belgian revolution—of the disorders that are abroad—of the blasphemy and extraordinary excitement of the lower classes," which he, by the by, would allay with every kind of fresh excitement. (Hear.) The learned lord meets a mob determined to break into his cellar, sad to quiet them he gives them brandy. (Lnuti cheers, and cries of " No, tei." from the Lend Advocate.) He (11r. Croker) said that this was' a just description of the learned lord's argument, and before he (Mr. Croker) had dor.e with him. the learned lord should be obliged to con. fess it. (Hem, hear.) The learned mid had told them that lie took his stand on the petitions of a supplicating people. He had .old them to look at those petitions; he bad told than that those petitions OW, not come from the dangerous classes of the community : he had told them that they were the petitions of those more favoured orders of society which the noble Paymaster of the Forces wished to introduce into political life; and he concluded all by telling t::cm, that if they did not grant the prayers of these petitions, they tan great risk and danger of convulsion. (Hear, hear.) He would take the liberty of asking the learned lord whether he read petitions on which he professed his readiness to take his stand? He (Mr. ('raker) was sorry to say that he had read upwards of MI of them tor a purpose which he would proceed to explain as concisely as he could to the House. He challenged the other side, out of the whole mass of petitions which they row wielded as weapons against his side of the House to produce one solitary petition, in which the petitioners stated that they would be satisfied with this extent of Parliamentaty Reform. • (Cries of bear," from Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Hunt.) In the many thonsa , d petitions which he had recently read, there a ere only two or t ti-rce worded with that happy generality which led the reader to expect cvtry thing or nothing from tncm. The rest were unanimoas in tiletr language and their players; (hear) and he had selected one of them to read to the howl t, because it was couched in moderate lan.' gu .ge, because its arguments were placed in regular order, and because it was on.: of the best specimens which he could find of the demands of ' the pettpl.t. It was the petition of the I.rtisans of Merthyr Tydvil. in the county of Glamorgan, a large manufacturing place, where a great mass of intelligence had, he supposed, been collected together. That petition asked for four things. The fitst was the right—and they called it the just right--of having all placemen dismissed from the House of Commons. (Hear, from Mr. Hunt.) The second was, the right of hay.' ing annual. or at least triennial Parliaments. (Hear, again from lie. Hunt.) The third was,—thrt which would now be given them by the noble lord's measure—the ri t tlit of having all the large towns and populous districts of the country represented in the House of Com mons, and that those close and decayed boroughs containing but few inhabitants, which now return members to parliament. should no longer enjoy that right. (Loud cheers from the ministerial benches.) The fourth was the right of every man to have a sore in the election of members of the House of Commons, who is in any way called upon to contribute to either natio:lst or local taxation direct or indirect.— (" Hear, " from Messrs. Hunt and O ' Connell .) These were the principal rights which the people at prawn' demanded. (Kean hear, hear.) All the petitions were couched in the same terms, end were directed to the same object : and when the learned lord, i:t re ply to the honourable member for Preetoa, said. " We hav2 heed upon 101. as the rate of' assessment, at which we intend le de. re it e Iline which must be drawn somewhere, he would tell hint that these pe titionere had drawn a line, which in his humble judgment etas much better. It was not a n arbitrary line . it was one for which, in the theory of the constitution, there was some shadow of foundation ; and it was this—that every man who was called upon to contribute to the exigen cies of the state should, either by himself or by his representative, have a share in voting the taxes which he had to pay. So far would the noble lord's measure be front giving satisfaction to the petitioners, that he was convinced that it would give them nothing but an increase of demand, wid an increase of disappointment (hear.) The learned lord had also told them, that discontent was mischievous when it arose from the re tinal of sacred rights. He had then asked what had occasion. d tnet cone ? He would leave the noble lord opposite to reply to tmet question of his learned colleague. The noble lord, allttdt::g to the argument of his late right honourable friend, Mr. Canning, that the people were not anxious for Parliamentary Reform, adinhed that there was meat weight in that declaration some years ago, " but," said the noble lord, I and others appealed to the patple on that subject, and they responded to our call, ant:, as a proof of it, we have collected an immense number of pe Mons in favour of reform." That subject which was now rankling in the heart and arming the hand of every man in the country against the constituted authorities was in the following hopeful condition, until the noble lord and his associates summoned it mice more iota life, and gave it fresh powers of animation. In the year Int, nineteen petitions only were presented in favour of reform. In the year 1822 the number was reduced to twelve. in the year 1823 the number was twenty-nine. In the year 1824, there was no petition at all in favour of reform. (Loud cries of " Hear.") The same was the case in the years 1825, 1826, 1827, 1828, and 1829, (howl cries oil " Hear.") In the Session of 1830, there were fourteen petition.. ;le. sented in favour or reform. Then came the dissolution of Parliament. The noble lord and his political friends then sat on the side of the house from which he was addressing the chair, and they went from that house to the elections, little dreaming that they would so soon change their situation to the other side of the house. (Hear, hear.) They looked about for a political lever (loud cries of hear," from the Opposition) to move the Government of the day from its place, and then, from hustings and bow-windows, and their different places of abode ' they made addresses about reform to the people ; and the country at length responded to their call : 650 petitions had been the result of that appeal. Now he would venture to affirm that in all— no, he would not say in all, for lie had not yet looked through those which were presented in a mass on Saturday last, but that in the cast majority of them—the most prominent demand of the petitioners was for the abolition of tithes. The first object, then, of petitioners was the reduction of tithes; the second was the reduction of taxation : and re form occupied only the third place in the prayers of the petitioners. —There was hardly one instance in which reform was not asked as a means of getting rid of tithes and taxation. (Hear, hear, hear.) In this crusade of petitions against reform, a noble lord opposite was most anxious that the respectable inhabitants of Cockermouth should bear their pan in expressing their opinions on this important subject, and straightway there came from Cockermouth a petition, which, for the mo deration of its language and of its desires, was most worthy the attention of the house. [Here the hommember read the petition from Cockcrmouth, which, complaining of distress and misery, asked for reform, for the also. lition of the East India monopoly, the abolition of slavery, and of the corn-laws, which latter the petitioners said had operated so prejudicially. that the pestiferous demon of hunger stalked through the land, carry. ing with it interminable ruin, and, by its baneful influence, bring. ing many to an untimely end.] But the noble and learned lord who had just sat down had not rested his case on such petitions as these. The noble and learned lord had acted more prudently. Now his first objection to this plan of the noble lord for reform was, that the noble lord had introduced it under the name of an innovation, and that it was so completely an innovation, that it overthrew the most valuable in. stitutions of the state. He believed it to be unparalleled in the annals of political history to put an end to so many political rights without assigning a single reason for doing so, and without so much all deigning to name many of them. Scot-and-lot voters were not "mentioned ; potwallopers were not alluded to ; freemen were not noticed; corporations were put forward only that the house might be acquainted that they were to be utterly abolished ' • and in place of these a quite new, untried, and unexampled right of election created, not in one place by way of experiment, as in the case ef a disfranchised borough, to which there would have been no objection as a means of trying the working of a popular theory, but throughout the whole country. (Hear, hear.) In place of that mode of elettioa which was acknowledged by the law and the constitution, the noble lied proposed this novel fabric of his own, and farther proposed tomb ' It general. The noble lord had selected houses rated at 101. as a qua. ligation; but why the noble lord had made this selection, the noble lord had not condescended to inform them. He did not pretend to divine the noble lord's reason for fixing upon that qualification, but this be would say—namely, that it had always been his opinion, that one of the greatest advantages of the constitution was, that they had under it great varieties of franchises, and of rights of election, because this circumstance offered a variety of modes by which men might enter that house ; and he must affirm, that nothing could be more dangerous than to put all the political power in the kingdom into the hand of one particular class of persona, which would be the effect of the noble lord's plan. (Cheers from the opposition.) If in popular places there pre. veiled a panic,--or if hatred arose in such places to any particular pa. son or party,—then there was a place of refuge to be found la a borough; while, on the other hand, there was always such a place as Preston, where voters might return any one they fan. tied. (Cheers from the opposition.) The complexity of the Bri. tish constitution, like the complexity of the universe, worked in beautiful order, and yet the noble lord thought that he had per.' formed a great work in getting rid of that. And now let them see how this plan of the noble lord would work. He had looked into the returns of the value of houses, and he had found that there were in England about 378,000 rated houses. Those 3711,000 houses were di. vided into 16 classes, and the three lowest classes comprised no less than 230,000. The consequence, therefore, would be, that by the noble lord's plan, so far from property having a proportional influence, all the power of election would be thrown into the lowest dare of house holders. (Cheers from the opposition.) The proportion of the lowest to the highest class of householders was, he believed, still greater in Scotland. See, again, the consequences of this. If it happened iniany time that a minister could not find his way into that house, it would be a matter of very little consequence; but if, in extraordinary times, in a time of popular ferment, it were necessary that a :wheat ministry should find seats, what but the most dangerous results must be anticipated from the mode in which the noble lord would fix the elective franchise throughout the kingdom ? But the noble lord bad told them that he was obliged to draws line, and that therefore he had drawn a line. The house would. doubtless, recollect that the hoe. member for Callington had last night intimated his suspicions that the line of the noble lord had been drawn partially. He too, had had his suspicions on this subject; and lit was very remarkable to observe the effects which this line had produced. The noble lord had told them that he drew his first line at 2,000; but the noble lord gave no reason for that. The noble told them that be had drawn his second line at 4,000; but for that, also, he bad not condescended to give any reason. It was all sic volts, sic jubeo, with the noble lord. However, such were the lines. All below 2,000 were disfranchised—all that came up to 4,000 were to have the right of sending two members. There were no reasons for these arrangements either. " These are my lines," said the noble lord, " these my arrangements ; I can't tell you why 1 made them ; all I can tell you is, that they arc lines and arrangements, and that you may take them or leave them as you please." And now he was going to call the attention of the house to a very serious point. He begged the attention of the House, for he really did think that the observation he was now going to make would be exceedingly important. (" Hear, hear, hear," from the Opposition, and a laugh from the Ministerial benches.") The Noble Lord then made two other lines,_ one he drew at 10,000, and the other at 20,000 ; and let them mark, to all past the 10,000 he gave one member, just as to the boroughs of 4.000 ; and to all past 20,000, he gave just precisely the same number of members as he gave to Knaresborough and Tavistock (hear, from the Opposition Benches). He would put it to the noble lord how he could justifythis to the country ; bow he and his colleagues—at least his colleagues road hoc,—would justify this male of disposing of the elective franchise ? (Hear). Now he had been curi ms to find out the place which would mark the limit between the ford line of 2,000 and the happy line of 4,000: he had been the more carious to discover the piece which would mark the gtearcr happiness of turning the comer —the lucky corner—of 4,000; for all who did, were to be placed in a condition of returning two reereeentativen although Belton, with 24,000 inhabitants, was to return only One. Let them see, then, where the line of 4.000 directed its course. He should. however, mention here,---and he said it with toe utmost candour.—that in pointing out the circumstance to which he was about to allude, he did not mean to make the elighti et personal imputation against the noble lord. If the ease was a bed one, let it be recollected that it was a case of' the noble lord's selection, not of his. Well, then, the borough which just passed the Widge as the fiend was ready to catch it,—the fortunate bor.mgh which escaped into the Elysium of undiminished pa. nonage, was the borough of Mahon, in Yorkshire. (Cheers from the opposition benches.) And how had this borough contrived to escape? Oh ! fortunate Melton ; it had 4,005 inhabitants (loud cheers and heighten front the Opposition), and therefore it escaped, whilst all the rest of the country, except a few manufacturing counties, were dim. franchised or mutilated of parts of their franchise. But the population returns—ay, the population returns of 1821—they were the Codex of our new Justinian. There had been Pitts, and Foxes, and Burke*, and Shmidens, who had looked at the constituent body otherwise than nu merically ; who saw in the body of the people various int erests, various localities, various estates, and various conditions of persons ; and who, when they approved of our constitution, approved of it because every local spot had its local customs and its local jurisdiction fitted for it; but our new Justinian woad not look at the works of man in their large capacity. (" Hear, hear," and laughter from the opposition.) No ; the :whir lord sat him down v. itlt the po pulation returns of 1821 before him, as the material, for u bran new constitution, but surprised, no doubt, at finding himseif toured into, the new Solon or a new Lycurgus. He had need hardly say that h.• had no disposition to offend the noble lord, but he must affirm, that the noble lord's mode of proceeding had been most narrow and most un statesmanlike, and that his plan would operate—no doubt, the nobl e lord did not intend that it should so opende—with the most flagrant injustice, and confer the must indecent p.cronag_ on a 'Mall number of boroughs. (s• Hear, heat, hem," front the opposition.) Tre hou,e would be astonished at the swollen; I , e was about to make to them. When they had last night merely asked the noble lord a qu..stinn ahnot a return, the noble lord had appeared to them very unreasonable. They asked fur more inforrnwion • hut the noble lord said, N o; t h ere ' s m y f a rthing candle ; you dull base that, or no light at all; for a blaze of light will alarm the people." Time noble lord had told him that the inOrmation he required was on Ere table. He knew o was. •• Here it b.," cold:hued the Lon. member, I:ol,iiiig up a large folio volunh . Lord JOHN 11USSELL.—That is not time voluoi• cortaining the returns Mr. CHOKER continued, the noble lord was rigitt. that was not the volume, but it was one very nearly as large. But to return to blalton, he had been told by an hon. friend of his. that the noble lid's new &institution would not alter the mode of election at :i12:1110t1. He undersrnxl that there was not much difference at Mahon between teen anti lot, end house. of 101. reed and lot tete the mode ot g in that 12.meagh. The same hon. frterd had told him that tie. number of sneers in Mahon was about Simi, e !itch was a toletable good pea s ant:an of voters in a population of ;keen. Happy Lord Fitzwilliam, who limed almost alone and sate, whihr so many peeielted in the genetel w What must be the power of that leviathan aristocrat.— (Loud cries of `• Oh, oh.") Now. he entreated Celt he might he not misunderstood. He considered lard Fitz ill! em ae Dy er of the most amiable men alive ; and he would r.o:, ter the worie, say one word which could give him a moment's uneasiness. or wince, should have the slightest appearance of disrespect towards a Noble man who was sn much and so deservedly role ctcd.—(Cheers.)-- But he wits speaking of the thing, not of the man, and the Noble Lord had lotted him to speak ot the thing, by dreu Mg t h e line at 4,000, and under 4,005. Well, then, might he say. happy Lout Fitzwilliani —(Cries of " Oin oh !") He would use any title, then,—kt it be Lord anybody,—arid he would say again, happy was tbat Lord that he had escaped utter:oslla by this inordinate and dangerous power ; and most fortunate, too, was that Lord sheer he owed hie safety and preserved such privileges, by means of the small numetical majority of five. He did say that this circumstance was one of the most extraordinary he had ever met with. Should the proposi tion of the noble lord, unhappily, be carried into effect by an act of tie: legislature, the country, he feared, the country would find hem& er, to it. sorrow, that ministers had left " Ample room and verge enough The characters of hat to trace." —He had struck off sixty-two members of parliament at a blow, teal his judgment was certainly quite unfettered in this summary and a nee. what unusual distribution. Let gentlemen only observe how the beat. ing measure, as the learned loni called it, was intended to opera!e. He would first look to three wane in the North Riding of roekshir there was Morpeth (fortunate Morpeth!) Richmond, and Think, c...• taming a population of 10,0131 persons, et :deli were to send four parser. . amongst them, at the rate of Ito 2,5e0 vo,ers. lie would then trite. to the West Riding, and they teund Huddersfield, Helifes, and Wake field, containing a populaner. of 36,fehi semle, which yet were only to be allowed three members, nataithetaatiMg the vast disproportion between the places in point of wealth, intelligence. and numbers. (Hear, Would it be be believed that such was actually the noble lord's propo sal ? Was Morpeth more important than Iludelerefield— was Rich. mond better entitled to representation than Halifax—zed could Think be deemed to possess higher claims than the lees-favoured to wit of Wake field ? Toes was a fact which it would be absolutely necessary for the noble lord satisfactorily to explain to the country, :or morn assuredly explanation was much wanted —(Hear, hear.) He brought a ( harp• against the noble lord—he accused him of not having duly coneidenil the principles on which he avowedly came forward with this moittenteaa ahetation.—(Cheers.) At the same time he would ran eaten to be understood as desirous to fasten any imputmion of improper motives ; but he did urge that the noble lord and his weak.- tors had been guilty of gross, flagrant negligence—of a culpable de parture from the principle on which they had ostensibly propounded there startling and extraordinary anomalies. It axe right that be should also mention a town in the south of England which had perhape never stood higher in public estimation than at the present thement in coon sequence of the luminous, eloquent, and brilliant speech of in represen tative. He meant the borough of Caine. On looking over the volume already named, which he would call Jttainian's Panacela, being the only orthodox and fashionable book of reierence on these watters,lie found this illustrieus tosen that had just narrowly turned the corner in tie Magna Charla rather amusingly described as t he Borough of Cain. rind the Liberty of Bowood. (Laughter.) Such as addendum was certainly ail-expressive of the great importance of the place shirk w a s thus noticed in dignified juxtaposition with the foresaid liberty or Bowood. The number of its inhabitants appeared to be 4.612, the population of Tavlstock was 5,482, and that of finale/a:or nee and Bedford, which were to return four members, was 19 400. and dote boroughs, with so inconsiderable an aggregate pl.:dotter. we-e• to be permitted to send eight int:lnhere to Parliament. What if they should all fall into the hands of one imam, for let it be remembered that it would require no very large properly to give an individual a complete command over the entre. T,;cn the important and opulent town of Blackburn was to return but one nieteher although five times larger than Tavisteck which wau!d be suffered to seed t wo (Hear). Bolton, in Lancashire, would have but one member, while its population could not be taken at less than 22 000. Furthermore, Bedford was to be given two, while Brighton. with 30.001) inhabitants, would only be favoured to the extent of one, and yet Newpoit was to be allowed two. Here were on one side 17 great towns peophd by 176,000 souls, and on the other a set of towns with a gross population of 20,000, which would enjoy a larger sit- re of the rapreeentation. In one of the noble lord's former exhibitions, he had vehemently opposed an hon. bart.'s plan of reform as inexpedient and impracticable ; whereto it appeared that it was not more violent than this darling scheme of lets own, and possessed the additional reeommendat :on of being clear, ain:- ple, and intelligible ; for the proposition of the hon. baronet was merrle that there should be one member for every 25,000 persons, and electors in every number of that amount. The noble lord profes.eqi act in compliance with the petitions of the public, but if that was hie sole motive of action, why thus attempt to throw an apple of d into the county of York? Did he suppose that Huddersfield, Ilalifas, and Wakefield, would be satisfied with his intended diettibutten Wil e if he were disposed to be ever so favourable to the plan it the noble lord generally, he should feel himself bound to resist it as blind, par. tie], and di- proportionate in its operation. ( Hear, hear, hear.) All is, too, was to be brought into action to satisfy the people forsouth ; but how if the people would not be so satisfied ? They cried out for bread, and he proposed to tender them a stone. (Oh, oh.) lie had not the least doubt that, after the passing of this experimental measure, pe• titione in ebundance would pour in from those aggrieved boroughs, de. manding why they had not been placed on a footing with Morpeth or Tavistock, and reeking a second reform on that which the noble bold proffered to our acceptance. To Tavistock the Duke of Bedford had always paid particular attention : he had stlerned it Ly his taste, digni fied it by his presence, and relieved it by his munificence. Vet they were now to be told, that he would never permit any of his fa mily to MOMS the constituency, or offer themselves at; its sentativca. Was it, then, actually come to that pass that it would be held a tiisgace to the noble house of Russell to be returned to parlia ment from Tavistock? Got) forbid that the generous ennniSeetice art a landlord should ever produce so deplorable a result ! But setting that consideration wholly aside, might net Bolton justly complain that it should only be allowed one member, when Tavistock had two ? Now for a very few words on the nature of the noble lord's general pro. position. Hon. gents. had called it a remodelling of the constitution, but he wished to know in what sense they meant to employ that es. pension. They likewise complained that it had been designated revo- lutionary, yet, what else was it? (Cheers.) He did insist that it had a decided revolutionary tendency ; but be acquitted those with whom it originated of all intention to cause any such effect. Human nature, however, would prove too strong for them, and if they once should he enabled to put this mighty globe in motion down the political declivity, let them not fondly hope hereafter to stay it for a moment in its eccen tric and resistless course, or think to stab the impetus which themselves had urged. The democratic feeling of that house had formerly been exlii. bited by a very decided manifestation in 1742, when a bill for the intlem. nification of certain witnesses had been returned from the lords, on whom, in consequence, a vote of censure was attempted to be passed by the too detrocratical commons, Lord Strange (eldest son of the then Earl or Derby) having actually moved a vote denouncing the House of Peers ae an obstruction to justice. Was not a similar ebullition of revolu tionary turbulence likely to occur In future times again and again, until the ruin of the constitution should be wholly consummated by the ulti. mate operation of this destructive and much misnamed raceme of re form ? The learned lord opposite had employed great ingenuity ot n ;mining, and no inconsiderable flow of language, to show •het the bi fluenee which was exercised by the Lords over the election ot certain members of the Commons, was wrong in theory and injurious in prac tice. When he heard this course of argument, he could et help feeling a little surprise at its tenour, end involuntarily reverted to publication, of which the learned lord ought certainly to know some. thing, for although he might not have actually written it. it had been at least given to the world under hie sanction, and vet ethos compotell by him, or by Mr. Brougham, to whom report, ::e be lieved, ascribed the article, at present mattered 11: !mewl might be the author was well worthy of praise. for sounder sense Of closer argument he had never read. (sitar, hear ) Tee es. tact quoted was from the July ncililler of the e.tliuLerl;4 r 3 JA ~~ . ~ ~M ~!9