Star. — London, England, 1821-04-18 00:00:00

I . ~ seeme4 as - if they sicls--" have it you shall, whether% wyotriike it or not ." ' ,This reminded him of a story he had read somewhere of a recruit who asked what was meant by a cat-o'nine-tails?—and to whom,this answer was given—" Oh ! it will make a volunteer of you"—( Laughter ).—To such a proceeding as this he could never agree, for there was no principle of religious toleration which could allow an Act to be passed in this way. Then let their Lordships see what the effect of this Bill would be if passed into a law. They were still to have a Protestant King, a Protestant Lord Lieutenant in Ireland, and a Pro testant Chancellor ; but if the Protestant Chancellor were to have Raman Catholic colleagues, would they allow him to remain long in his situation? It would be a monstrous proposition to open the avenues to all offices in this way ; and so far from its giving satis faction, it would create jealousies and dissentions; for when exclusions took place, the individual filling the Throne would be pointed at as the author of them. Then it had been said that Roman Catholics should not be excluded from sitting in Parliainent, or from sitting on the Bench—(Hear, hear).—lf we were to have Roman Catholic Judges, the Municipal and the Ecclesiastical powers which were now so blended together, could never be exercised in a pro per manner. How could therdetermine those Ec clesiastical questions which were founded on our Pro testant system ?—(Hoar, hear).—Then as to admit ting Roman Catholics into Parliament, it was well tnown that since 1688 we had a Protestant King and a Protestant.Patliament; and it was no punish ment to any man, that he did not hold an office of trust, or possess political power: and he would now declare, that the circumstance of giving the elective franchise to the Roman Catholics of Ireland in 1793, was the foundation of that night's debate—(Hear, hear)—for one accession to power only gave rise to fresh claims for more power. U Roman Catholics were allowed to sit in Parliament, they would be sitting there deliberating on questions connected with ' the Church of England. Would this be a desirable' event? He felt that his. country was already well governed, and he would not risk any alteration so hazardous as this—(Near, hear).—What might here after follow from it was uncertain ; but what had hitherto happened from the possession of power by Roman Catholics was well known to everybody.— The Statutes had provided for the purest and best Church in the world, with the completest toleration that ever was known, and that was the best possible foundation for civil and religious liberty. He could acknowledge a Bishop of the Popish persuasion,. but be could not acknowledge a Bishop of the Romish Church in Ireland. Although those persons, ac cording to the laws, could not interfere in any judi cial proceedings, they still held their Consistorial Courts in Ireland ; and even took upon them to ex clude persons of their own religion from society, by passing sentences of excommunication against them. Would their Lordships say, that this was not an exer cise of Ecclesiastical jurisdiction ? They exercised a similar jurisdiction with respect to martiages and divorces—(Hear, hear).—He assured their Lord- Ships he should be happy to save them the trduble of hearing him; but it was impossible for him not to express himself as he now did. Some persons might suppose that he was actuated by prejudices ; but that was not the case. He felt that the laws must rest on principles which should stand the test of ge neral application ; and were not made to suit path- Cular interests. He concluded with quoting authori ties in support of his opinion, and declaring his deter mination to uphold the Protestant Religion, as the rarest means of preserving the liberties of the country. The Bishop of NORWICH said a few words in explanation of what had fallen from him on the pre ceding night. Lord GRENVILLE declared that, often as he had given his opinion on this important question, the opinion not only remained unchanged, but that his strong conviction was now more confirmed than ever it had been, by all the arguments he had heard for and against this question. On all former occasions, this question had come before Parliament by the ex ertions of individuals, and whatever authority might have been derived from the talents of such great men, it now came before them in a widely different form; for the question now came before them, not with the recommendation of any reverence for their memories, but by the recommendation of the other branch of the Legislature, where it had been discussed with a wisdom and deliberation hitherto not experienced. That great body of Representatives of the People had, after the most mature deliberation, declared that this great measure of justice ought to be adopted. And would it be said, that in consequence of some verbal objections to the Bill, it was not to be entertained by that House? He did hope that this was not the way by which the Bill ought to be encountered. The proper mode of arguirg was, to consider whether four millions of subjects ought to be excluded from the benefits of the British Constitution, merely on account of entertaining certain religious opinions. He was utterly at a loss to conceive on what princi ple of wisdom or justice it could be urged that their Lordships should refuse to enter into the full consi deration of this question. It was utterly impossible to discuss this question on the grounds set forth by the Noble and Learned Lord. If he agreed in the statements of the Learned Lord, he should still enter into the most ample discussion of the question. In all that the Noble and Learned Lord said with re spect to the influence of religion upon the happiness, of the community, he fully concurred. • He concur red also in every commendation which the Noble and Learned Lord gave to the purity and discipline of the Protestant Churclf; and no man was more anxious to uphold that Church than himself. But the ques tion here was not as to the preference of faiths. Their Lordships saw the Roman Catholic religion preva lent to a great extent in these realms, and his object in supporting this measure was to render that Teti 4ion less productive of evil to the people of this na tion than it now was. Formerly, it was the policy of this country to oppress and persecute the profes- , sors of that religion, and to confiscate their proper ties. Upon the result of that policy, he believed there was now no second opinion. His Noble and Learned Friend contended, that they should leave this matter as it was left by King William. And yet hh Noble and Learned Friend, in the same breath, 'said that they ought to take their stand where they now were—(hear). The %%hole of the principles upon which King Wilkatu acted were shaken—nay , totally overthrown, by the system which hadiseenl followed, and, in his opinion, happily followed}, for the last _forty yeari- 1 -(1/ein, hear). In his opinion, however, it was a libel - on the Re volution to trace up the policy of religious exclusion to that great event. So far back as the reign of Elizabeth, repeated at tempts were matte to compel the Roman Catholics of Ireland to conform to the Protestant religion. To that object tended the various Statutes which were seeped upon this subject. Hence arose the persecu liec ' d the confiscations which followed. He would nik`t e 4: t up their Lordships ' time in tracing the laws whie were passed for that purpose, but he would roceed to the effects which they produced. The Noble Lord then referred to a pamphlet of Swift's, in which that writer describes the situation of the no nun Catholics tit Ireland after they were generally stripped of their estates, and shewed that, by the latest Acts against Popery, it was intended that the little which remained to them should daily crumble away. Hence, he said, many of them became Pro testants, and the number of Conformists every day increased. The writer went on to recommend that the administration of their faith should be taken away from them. The Noble and Learned Lord had very truly remarked, that one of the most important cares of a State was that of the religion of the People.— Their Lordships, therefore, would be surprised to hear that Swift's system was not only promulgated, but acted upon. He feared he dwelt too long upon this pan of his subject ; but he could not help ob serving that the whole object •of this system was to render the Roman Catholics of that count: y a band of Helots. The system, however, succeeded only for a time. Instead of ma king their religion distasteful to the Roman Catholics, it only rendered it more dear to them. They were rendered incapable of doing good to the State; but their religion was, up to this hour, unchanged. In that state of servitude they re mained until the reign of his late Majesty. lie had not heard one argument against the present measure, which did not go the length of recommending the renewal of that hostile system which existed at the Revolution. Tor the last forty years they had been acting in direct opposition to that system ; they had repealed many of those cruel laws which had dis graced. the Statute Book ; they had opened to the Roman Catholics many of those objects which were esteemed honourable and useful to society. If it was admitted that there was within the limits of the em pire a mass of people incapable of discharging the functions of loyal subjects, to what conclusion would thee melancholy fact lead, except that of retracing all. their steps, or expelling that people entirely from the bosom of the country? But if the Roman Ca tholics were acknowledged on all sides to be a faith ful and brave people, were they for a moment to doubt the impolicy and injustice of such a proceed ing? His Noble Friend on the other side of the House, last night, made an apt allusion to the Ara bian fable of a giant, who, when the phial or the chest was opened, enlarged his dimensions, and touched the clouds with his head, and after was dis posed to destroy his benefactor. He could not help thinking that his Noble Friend was a little too late in this allusion, for it could apply only to the first opening of the chest. The chest had long since been opened, the giant had extended beyond its measure; but, instead of an evil, it appeared to him to be a most beneficent spirit. To pursue the tale, lie be lieved that the talents and virtues of the Reverend Prelate for this diocese, great as they were, and no man admired them more than himself, could not now persuade that spirit to reduce himself to his original dimensions. It was said that they had felt the bene fit of their present situation, and that they ought not to remove from it. He acknowledged that to re move from that situation would be a great change; but for that reason it ought to be gradually made, because it was a great change. If the Act of 1793 was to be considered a final measure, he must say, that he thought it a measure fraught with great in convenience. But he had always considered that Act as a step to prepare the way for farther concessions. He knew nothing in the Constitution which withheld from one class what it gave to another. It was the fundamental principle of this Government to afford equal franchises to all. Equal franchise was the common right of all, the exception was created by law. To rest where they now were, was to act in violation of that system of concession which had been adopted in the reign of the late King—a system which went to make men unworthy of trust, by shew. ing them that they were esteemed so—(Hear, hear). It was upon this ground, to perfect that policy which they had acted upon for the last forty years, and the advantages of which they had expellenced, he now called upon them to erase from the Statute Book those laws of disqualification which still remained. Let the vote of this night be as it might, it was no trivial thing to let it go out, as some Peers had ar gued, that the Catholics were incapable of offering to the Throne an undivided allegiance. Ile contended that the Roman Catholic, in talcing the oath of alle giance, reserved nothing save that same obedience to the laws of morality which the Protestant reserved, and must always reserve, equally as the Catholic. The fountain of all persecution was the unfortunate habit which men had, of imputing to others, not the principles and opinions which they profe ssed, but which were supposed to follow as consequences from some innoxious tenets which they acknowledged.— The Roman Catholics were ready to take the oath contained in this Bill, which proffered an undivided allegiance, and they were ready also to declare, that they were in a capacity to perform all the duties of good subjects, and at the same time to maintain the principles of their religion. This Bill came recom mended by the Commons of the United Kingdom, who believed, that instead of doing an injury, it would do a material benefit to the country. The Commons had decided that they would admit Ro man Catholics into their House. Their Lordships were now deliberating whether they would con tinue that exclusion which kept sir individuals of their own body from sitting among them. if he did not believe that he was now speaking in the hearing of those individuals, he would be inclined to dwell upon their virtues, but he would ask any man who heard him, if he could single out any one of those six distinguished persons from whom he could apprehend danger to the. Constitution ?—(Hear, hear). Was there one of them whose presence would not add respect, dignity, and wisdom to the public councils? —(Goers). It would be gratifying to an Englishman, could he wash away all trace of these laws of exclusion from the *cords of 'the enantry. But perhaps their preservation would not be without advantage, if it taught men to see to what san guinary-lengths religious persecution could go when once religious discord was rued to take root in the minds of men—(Hear, hear). When the general body of Roman Catholics was first degraded, ,no fault was charged to them except that they were of the same religion as those persons to whom some . Crimes were traced. Their Lordships were now con sidering, whether they would continue those punish ments to their innocent, loyal, and brave descendants —(Hear, hear). The whole policy of the country was the revel sal of attainder& Would they continue to punish men for crimes of which neither they nor their ancestors were ever legally charged ? Was any one prepared to say, that the moment the Duke of Norfdlk and the Earl of Shrewsbury took seats' on the benches of this House, the State would be overturned? Would they refuse their rights to indi viduals upon no real, but upon imaginary grounds? Would they, from such unworthy and delusive mo tives, keep from the individuals to whom he alluded the highest and most honourable franchises which , any country in the world ever had to bestow? His great object in supporting this measure v/as to pro duce conciliation, and to unite the Catholic Clergy and laity with the rest of the community. With re= spect to securities, he conceived that when they passed a Bill of so much grace and concession as this, they might consider themselves entitled to de mand securities, even on , points where no danger really existed. In the first place, he conceived this Bill itself oneof the most solid securities for the State which could be devised. In the next place, he was of opinion, that all the malignant objects im puted to the Catholics were wholly visionary ; and, indeed, if they were not so, the only seem ity they could have would be to return to those laws which had been long since repealed. The best security of a State was its attention to the happiness of the com munity under its care. One of the great advan tages of the measure would be to attach the great mass of the people of Ireland to the Throne and Monarchy of these realms. Were they to be told, that after the Commons of Great Britain had passed this Bill, they were to find in this House, constituted as it was, of Spiritual and Temporal Peers, a per petual obstacle ?—(Hear, hear). But perpetual be was assured it would not be; should it operate noir, lie could not but look upon it as a great calamity. He was, however, persuaded, that ultimately the measure would succeed, and he should only lament that it did not succeed on an occasion' so favourable to it as the present.—(The Nobk Lord sat down amid loud cheering). The Earl of LIVERPOOL observed that the sub, ject which then engaged their Lordships attention did not originate with any Noble Lord in that House. The question came before their Lordships not on the suggestion of any of themselves, but was introduced from the other House of Parliiment, where it had occupied much of the attention of those who were both for and against the measure, and for that reason he was most anxious the Bill should receive the fullest discussion from their Lordships. The Noble Earl (Donoughmore) who invited their Lordships to the discussion of that question, seemed surprised why he (Lord Liverpool) had already announced his intention of opposing the second reading of the Bill. Observ ing that the principle of that Bill went to . grant con cessions to the Roman Catholics, which, in his opi nion, were dangerous to the safety and existence of the Protestant Establishment and the Protestant Suc cession, he (Lord Liverpool) thought it more manly and more candid to state in the very outset his de cided opposition to the principle of the Bill—(Hear). —He would grant the Roman Catholics the most absolute right to personal security, to personal liberty, to personal property; he would grant them a most perfect and unfettered right to the inheritance and transfer of property, as freely as the Protestants had enjoyed it; he would grant them everything which might be considered of a civil nature, but he could not consent to grant them that share of political power which that Bill was calculated to confer upon them—( Hear, hear). —He would admit that any re strictions in the civil and religious liberty of the Roman Catholics ought not to be continued farther than was necessary for the safety of the State. Every man, he would admit, had an inherent and natural right to a perfect civil and religious freedom. But the question before their Lordships regarded not civil liberty, but political power; and it belonged to the State to regulate the distribution of that power.— The Noble Earl, in making these observations, did not wish to be understood as endeavouring to con vince their Lordships that exclusion from political power was no grievance. He did not deny but it was a grievance, but the conferring of political power and the appointment to offices of great trust, should be always regulated and governed by State necessity. He knew many of the Roman Catholics of England, and was in habits of friendship and intimacy with. them, and he would do them the justice to say, that they were a most meritorious class of persons. But he thought their Lordships were bound, by every consideration of good faith and self-preservation, to support and protect the Protestant Establishment— (Hear, hear).—The question which he would wish to press on their Lordships attention was, not what would be the consequence of admitting the Catholics to political power, if their were of the Established Church in Ireland ; but, the Catholic religion not being the Established Religion in Ireland, but oppo site to, and aiming at the destruction of the Esta blished Religion, whether their Lordships were-not bound to protect that religion so established ? LHear, hear).—He (Loyd Liverpool) would ask their ordships then, if they suffered that Bill to pass, what security had they but that the next thing sought for would be the repeal of the Corporation and Test Acts? The consequence of passing that Bill would be the repeal of those Acts, for without that there would not be a perfect equality. Then their Lord ships would have Jews, and Catholics, and every other sect on a perfect equality—(Hear, hear).—Where. then; would their Lordships stop? Would they stop after the repeal of those Acts ? Then would follow/ the doctrine that all persons having equal rights and equal privileges, it would be unjust and oppressive to oblige any persons to contribute to the support of a Clergy and alteligion of which he was no member (Hear, herir).—That would he the obvious conso• quence of breaking down the fences of the Constitu tion. Though that Bill professed to support the Pro. - testatst Succession, yet, if it passed, it was impossible the Protestant Succession could remain. He *auk suppose a case of an Heir Apparent to the Throne, The President of the Council might be a Roman _Catholic, the Secretary of State might be a Ram at , Catholic, and other Great Officers of State might be Roman Catholics, but the Heir Apparent alon e 'must be a Protestant. Under such circumsta nces ' were their Lordships to risk the security of the Protestant Succession by breaking down that prin. ciple which required all those to be Protestants?... But as to the-Bill itself, if it were passed into a la w , and that the Roman Catholics resisted the Clause, what Would be the consequence? Their Lordships knew how anxious some would be for a malt of martyrdom. That new law was not, like the old Ime against Roman Catholics, to he dormant on the Ste-- tote Boot. The Bill was obnoxious to the Roman' Catholics themselves. The Bill would not conciliate: the Roman Catholics, and could have no ,annd effetf on the bulk of the people. R few only could be b e: nefited by it; but the mass of the population could derive no advantage. The Constitution of thi s conn .• try was, that the King, Council, and Judtes, au 1 as the Great Officers of the State, sheuld be l'rotestaate The Marquis of LANSDOWN was surprised to hear the Noble Earl say, that that Bill could confer po advantage on the great bulk of the Roman Ca r tholics, but on the leading Catholics only. Was the Noble Earl to say their Lordships wete sitti. g t h ere for their own benefit merely, and not for the m an . try—(Hear,hear)--and that the humblest individual did not profit by their elevation to that high station, who would not feel a satisfaction in an eligibility to high offices? And that observation applied prind. pally to the people of Ireland, who were alwaysalive to objects of distinction and ambition. Instead of argument against the Bill, their Lordship s h a d h eard a portion of doctrines which the Roman Catholics never believed, imputations which they never de served, and apprehensions of danger which never existed, not even in the Bill of Rights and Act of Settlement, which that Bill went to repeal. They were asked; . was the Protestant King to be left in danger of being surrounded by Roman Catholic ad. visers? This Bill, of itself, would produce no such consequence. It would do no more than give a power to . the King of selecting some of his advisers of that religion if he thought fit. The Noble Mar -quis then referred to the statement of an °fink* which was held by a former Bishop of Bath and %Veils, his name was Dr. Hooper, with respect to the ,admission of Presbyterian Lords into this Home.. That Bishop said that it would be detrimental to the existence of the State. Their Lordships saw, In the experience of a century and more, how far that Learned Bishop's prediction was verified. His Noble Friend, last night, said that the Roman Catholic Re. ligion had an invincible leaning to arbitrary Gonna went, and that the Pre.hyte ian had a tendency to democracy-. Now, how was this argument sustained. by the conduct of the Scotch Peers in this House?... Did they find in those Noble Lords any disposition to systematic Republicanism ?--(Hear, hear, ad laughter).—in every country of Europe, at least where new Constitutions were adopted, in Bavaria, Wirtemberg, and Holland, Roman Catholics and Protestants were equally admissible to office. Them was one fact which, in this argument, he would not overlook, and which, perhaps, was not generally known to their Lordships. At the time of the mutiny of the Nor*, at a crisis of great danger to the State, Government sent down Roman Cathclic Nests to bring back the mutineers to their allegiance! This was a most difficult and delicate mission. The Ro man Catholic Priests did go down, and did bring them back to their allegiance!—(Hear, hear).—And yet these were the men who, it was argued, were not to be trusted, when the question was raised as to the admission of Roman Catholics to the benefits of the Constitution—(Hear, hear).—The Noble Marquis, after arguing that this measure would infuse fresh strength into the Empire, referred to the charge which a flight Rev. Prelate made last night with repeat° the establishment, as he called it, of Jesuits at Stoney. burst. Now, in the first place, there was a law which - prohibited the establishment of Jesuits in this country, and this Bill would not repeal that law; In the next place, there was a bull of the Pope, which positively prohibited the establishment of the order of Jesuits any country where they were not allowed by the laws of that country—(Hear, hear). — That order existedin no State of Europe which did not particularly desire and sanction it. He concluded with imploring their Lordships to give a second reading to this Bill. Viscount SIDMOUTH said, he felt great pain is ev opposing e n th o i f s t ß h i e l l. by anything which he had heard in this debate, he ea ß s u n t re fr — om a v th ie e w v as iew ye w t h n i n cl t t h h an e ga had could not agree to it in principle. Lord MELVILLE spoke in favour of the Bill He alluded to the Petition against the Bill that had been presented from a provincial synod of Scotland , and stated, that in the minority which voted in that synod against the Petition, was the celebrated Dr. Chalmers. Lord ASHBURTON strongly supported the no . tion, and said, that should the Bill be rejected, it "' his intention to enter a Protest against the decisivo. Lord SOMERS also warmly supported die me! sure, declaring it to be his conviction, that had his Noble ancestor, whose name had been conned with these debates, lived in these times, he would be favourable to the principle of this Bill. The Bishop of PETERBOROUGH then role; but the cries of " Question !" became so uilivtro 4 that the House proceeded to an immediate divitico• Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and th eil Lordships having divided, the numbers were--- Contents . 72 Proxies - - - 45 —l9O 110 • e 9 —159 Majority against the Bill Adjourned at half-pabt Three this morniug. HOUSE OF COMIIONS. Me; WESTERN moved for a Return of the total quantal ° Woollen 'Manufactured Goods exported front the Sal of k": nuary, iBto, to tia:. .;th of January, 1S:41; distinguidtirt quantities and qualities of Goods, and to miter Papi.rs corn 10' with the Woolten Trade.- r Ortlered. Sir G. ROBINSON presented a Petition from Northatar ton, in favour of Reform. The Icon. Member nirte.rved. tbe:. he perfectly agreed with Ate prayer of the Petition. vision in the [louse skewed the necessity of Refe.rm. t traresauce of Nioictiss Wcreased, aed Dtoutd cutOuie Non-Contents - Frosit. s . • ~~ . ~~~ _~--r-- RI r "!