Star. — London, England, 1817-05-23 00:00:00

bad been no executions of the punishmetit denounced by that I.w. Bin he was sites led ilrAt if the ptinish men, • ere I s- severe. a frirmi, 0.. do.,t,t of treqtrent recorr-nee. w ul.l he considerably reduced. Theft were, .ever. '.tier Alterations which this system requir...!. It ought to be made a substantive crime for any fictitious creditor to sign a bankrupt's certifi cate. Stich a person might, no doubt, be prosecuted for coropiracy, which sv;.s a mode of proceeding sometimes adopted, but this was a course attended with great difficulty and expence. It was therefore desirable to m .ke the act alluded to a crime in itself. What further changes might be necessary, according to his judgment upon this important question, he should take occasion to suggest to his Honourable Friend, or to the Committee for which he proposed to move, to which he (Sir S. Romilly) should be happy to afford any information or assistance in his power. At the same time he must say, that he was afraid oohing conclusive could he done within the present Session on a subject involving such a variety of interests, and requiring so much' deliberate in vestigation. Adverting to the Bili before the House respecting the Bankrupt Law, he expressed his dis approbation of th -it measure, which he did not think likely to do Any good, while it was calculated to pro duce much oppression. For the idea of authorising a minute examination of the whole life of a bankrupt, and of proposing that if any exceptionable act on his part were detected, he should be therefore refused his certificate. w.s quote inconsistent with justice and humanity. But the main object of this Bill was quite impracticable. and he hoped the Honourable Moyer would not press its adoption. Sure he was that such a measure would not be agreed to by the other House. He had himself brought in a Bat upon the suhj ct on a former Session, in which there was a clause to invest the Lord Chancellor with a power to sign a bankrupt's certificate in certain cases. But for this clause another was substituted in the Lords, of which he by no means approved, namely, that of au. thorising three-fifths of the creditors to sign a certifi cate, and this was deemed an important concession, because four-fifths were previously required. That arrangement, however, did not at all answer the end which he had in view, and this was, to protect the honest debtor from the cppression of callous or incon siderate creditors; but through the clause to which he objected, cam was generally taken to offer a suf ficient number of fictitious creditors to sign the ccrti. ficate, and thus the object of the law was evaded. Mr. LOCK HART expressed the higlieLt respect for the authority of the Learned Gentleman who had Jost sat down, with whose opinions upon this subject, especially as to the propriety of seducint.T the severity of the punishment under the existing law, he !oily concurred. The object of the Bill which lie had in troduced to the notice of the House, and of which the Learned Gentleman had disapproved, was solely to distinguilli between honest and fraudulent bank rupts, and to guard against fictitious cl simants. As to the latter, he was sorry to understand, and he stated it without prejudice, that in London, at least, they consisted principally of the Hebrew nation, who, as be was assured, dealt largely in false oaths. For example, a case had lately come to his knowledge, in which a Jew bad sworn himself the creditor of a bankrupt to the amount of it 5.000 ; but, upon exa mination before the Commissioners, it appeared that not one shilling was due to him. But as he (Mr. Lockhart) was infosased, and he bad no doubt of the fact, those Jews, however they might be inftu eaced by the penalty which the law annexed to per- jury, had really no religious reverence for any oath not taken before one of their own Rabbits. while such was their impression with regard to the latter, that a Jew happening to die some time ago, shortly after be had violated an oath taken before a Rabbi, his late was among his nation universally attributed to that violation. The Rabbits should .therefgre be called upon to enlighten and instruct those Jews upon the subject of oaths taken in the administration of our law. and no doubt the Call would be attended to, while itanust be hoped that the exhortation would be effective in preventing such immoralities. Reverting to his Bill, the Honourable Gentleman said, that in consideration of the proposed Committee, and of some advice which he had received from the Cham ber of Commerce in Dublin, be should decline to proceed farther upon it at present. Mr. ABERCROMBIE supported the views of his Learned Friend (Sir S. Romilly), adding that the Commissioners of Bankruptcy ahould be authorized to adjourn the 'final examination of any bankrupt, until be should be prepared to make a satisfactory disclosure of his effects, as such a provision, he was induced to think, from some cases before the Com missioners in London, would operate materially to check fraudulent bankrupts. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that some amend ment in the Bankrupt Law was peculiarly desirable In Ireland, where the creditors usually compromised fora proportion of their claims, rather than risk the arose and perplexity of a commission of bankruptcy. Mr. LUBBOCK spoke in favour of the petition. The petition was ordered to lie on the table ; and Mr. Ssnru gave notice of his intention to move to morrow for the appointment of a Committee to con sider the prayer of the said petition. A petition was presented from Linlithgow against tie Duties upon Distillation. Laid on the Table. IRISII LINEN TR . Lord YARMOU CH presented a Petition from the Manufacturers of, and Dealers in Linen at B ii. lvmena, in Ireland, against a proposition which they understood was about to be submitted to the House for the repeal of the Transit Duties, the petitioners conceiving that the adoption of such a measure would be fatal to the staple manufacture of their country. Mr. BROUGHAM expressed his conviction, that should the motion of his Honourable Friend' (Mr. Finlay ), be acceded to, those who put their names to this petition would find their alarm for - the Irish Linea Trade to be totally groundless. It was stated, that if the transit duties were repealed, German seas would, instead of those of Ireland, be exported' to the West Indies and the Spanish Main ; but it seemed to be quite unknown to those well-informed petitioners, that not one ell of Irish linen found its way to t h e Spanish Main at present, whereas if the transit duties were repealed, Irish linens were among the assortment of other articles likely to be exported to any plat of the commercial world. Mr. DENNIS BROWNE deprecated any atm mpt to interfere with the Linen Trade of Leland, epon which all orders or people in that country so mate• rially depended, especially in its present condition I, and it,would, he tlsought, be rather diffitult to prove, that if the German Linens were relieved from the transit duties, tile Lini.ns of Ireland could not suffer any reduction of demand from such a competition. But he would ask, why any experiment should be made upon the staple trade of Ireland, while the Woollen and Cotton Trade, while the Hardware and Pmteries of this part of the Empire retained all the advantage of protecting duties ? But no one, he ventured to say, would attempt to make any propo sition that should affect the interest of those manu facturers, for this plain reason, that he would not be listened to. But he hoped that Parliament would evince a similar solicitude for the protection of the trade of Ireland, whatever exertions might be made by the factors of foreign merchants to extend the commerce of Greenock, or aay other northern port, with the merchants of Hamburgh. Mr. BROUGHAM assured the House, that the Honourable Member was under a great mistake if be. supposed that the merchants of Greenock or of any other commercial port could produce any sinister in fluence upon his conduct. The petition was ordered to lie on the table. A Message from the Lords stated their Lordships' assent to the Lottery P r FRAUDS ♦T CORE. Mr. BENNET, adverting to a Commission of In quiry which had, tie' understood, lately taken place at Cork, in consequence of frauds committed upon the convicts, stated the circumstances of the case as they were commu.ticated to him. Representation having been made to Admiral Hallowell, who com mands at Cork, tbat about one-half of the sum al lowed by Government for the maintenance of each convict Willie at Cork had been for years appropriated to the private profit of the Sheriffs and.Jailors, that gallant Officer transmitted his information to the Go vernment, by whom a Conimiswon of Inquiry 'was appointed. Now, be wished to know whether there was any objection to lay before the House the Re port of the Commission with regard to the double fraud upon the Government and the unfortunate 1 Convicts Mr. PEEL said, that he had no objection to com municate any information which the Hon. Gentle. man desired, upon the subject Alluded to. Mr. BENNET then moved for the Report of the Commission referred to, with the minutes of evidence taken before it.—Ordered accordingly. EDUCATION Or TUt POOL Mr. BROUGHAM rose to move the revival of the Committee which sat last Session to inquire into the state or Education among the poorer Classes in this Metropolis. He wished also very shortly to state the object of the motion, as its publicity would the better enable him to attain.that object. A great deal of evidence was taken before the former Committee, and i great deal of that evidence was neces►arily ex park. It appeared to him that a considerable por tioo of it, therefore, was susceptibleot correction and revision, and it was in order to afford as opportunity for obtaining that correction, on the part of the wit nesses, by another inves►igation, that he now moved the revival of the Committee. The better to do so, he was desirous of having it understood that the Committee would not begin to sit till after the expi ration of about ten days. Tail Motion was then agreed to. wuroow AND CARRIAGX TAX IN IRELAND. Mr. SHAW, of Dahlia, rose, pursuant to notice, to firing under the consideration of the House the extreme hardship width was felt in many parts of Ireland, from the. oppreuive duty upon Windows and Carriages. The Honourable Member went into a variety of statement* to prove the severity_orthose Taxes, especially that upon Windows, and mentioned one case, where a person paying only aft a year fee rent, paid £24 to the Window and Hearth Tae..u. The duty on Windows was originally imposed' as a War Tax, and the war having ceased, he thought it was but common justice to relieve the people of that country from the further continuance of the tax.' At least, if it could not be wholly repealed,, be- *pre heuded it would be very practicable to mitigate its operation ; and he should therefore move that.a Com mittee be appointed to take into consideration the Petition presented from the City of Dublin end other parts of Ireland against the Window Tax and Car riage 'rat,. Mr. GRATTAN expressed his entire concurrence in the motion of his Honourable Friend, and his con viction of the necessity that some consideration should be bestowed upon the subject. The persons who had petitioned against the Tax, especially from Dub lin, were all of them respectable householders, and a most rational, intelligent, and modest set of men. 'His idea was, that some regulation might be adop ted, which would relieve the subject, without dimi. nishing the resources of the country. In any opi nion he entertained, or might `are expressed, upon the subject of those taxes, he did not mean to nit the slightest imputation upon the motives or the in-' tegrity of the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald) at whose recommendation they were imposed. He had proved himself an honest servant of the Crown, mediating between it and the people, and doing justice to the one, without irgits-1 ting or oppressing the other. It was impossible, how. ever, in so large a system of taxation, that some parts of it should not need correction, and any person might manifest a wish to obtain that correction with. ; out throwing a blemish upon the individual by whom the system WAS proposed. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that though lie differed in some 'respects from the views entertained by the Honourable Member who brought forward the present question, yet he 1 1 was most r.:ady to do jus t ic e to t h e can di d in which he had argued it. While, however, that House would feel disposed to attend to any particu lar inconvenience felt from the operation of a Tax. they were equally bound to attend to the general burden which must be borne by the whole Empire. He thought the object of the Honourable Member' would be best attained by referring the petitioners to .the Committee of Finance, rather than to any sepa rate Committee. The whole taxation of the country must come tinder the consideration of that Commit. tee ; and he would therefore move as an arnendmenr, that the said Petition be referred to the Committee on Finance. Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, if the Home wish td to have a WE eartatiaatioa of the 11113Pery they wood 'not consent to send the Petitions to the Finance Committee. One reason why. he should object to doing •SO, was because there was not, at most, mdre than one or two Is ish Members in it; and though he had no doubt the Members of that Committee would do their duty, in what related to Ireland as well as to England, yet, in a question affecting It eland alone, he could not help thinking that Irishmen were most likely to be influenced by the necessary zeal and anxiety. There was another consideration. Tne business already before the Committee was quite enough to occupy all its attention. With :expect to the taxes complained of, in condemning th:•ir opera tion, he disclaimed any intention of reproaching the Right Honourable Gentleman who proposed them. He was called upon, by his situation, to make great 'exertions during the war ; he did so, and Ireland cor responded to them, by drawing upon her capital to 1 meet his demands. But the war being over, she had a right to expect from the justice of LnglAnd a re mission of those claims. Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD, in explaining the views which induced him to lay those Taxes upon Ireland, admitted, that he believed there was uo b of men more entitled to relief than the Petitioners, it that relief were consistent with the welfare of the Empire at large ;_ and he hoped the reference of the Petitions to the Finance Committee would not ope rate in the way wh:ch the Right HJO. Baronet ap prehended. Mr. PLUNKETT said, he thought it would be much better to understand at once whether it was likely any relict would be granted, rather than send the Petitions to a Committee, merely as a way of getting rid of them. No new light could be thrown upon the subject of them by any investigation before the Finance Committee. With respect to the Win dow Tax, it was certainly a War Tax originally but he did not therefore mean to say it should be struck off, though it ctrtainly constituted some ground for complaint, and some claim for a mitiga tion of its assessments on the part of the Petitioners. It was felt most severely in Dublin, where hundreds of personi were compelled to stop up their lights, thus excluding the fresh air, and causing the most deplorable consequences from contagious disorders. If no relief could be granted, in GoD's name let it be so declared, and they must submit to it, which would be infinitely better than deluding them with hopes that were never meant to be realized. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER reminded the House that the Assessed Taxes of Ire. land stood pledged for the payment of the interest upon its permanent debt. They had to consider, therefore, whether she could stipply the means of defraying that charge, by the op ration of a reason able system of taxation ? He was as desirous as any one to afford relief, if it could be done without dimi nishing the income of the country. The mode of effecting that would demand some inquiry, and he much doubted whether any inquiry could be made that would enable them to' legislate upon the subject this Session. That was the reason why he proposed to refer the Peuti .ns to the Finance Committee. Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD said, that he understood the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer to state that this tax stood pledged as a part of the permanent revenue .of Ireland. That was impossible, as the Act of rarliament gave it an ex press duration for three years, or during the war.— zogland, on the arrival of peace, had received as a boon a diminution et 17 millions of taxes, while to Ireland,' whose means of meeting taxation were so re duced by the abruptness of that measure, nothing WAS granted brit about £90,000 in the repeal of cer tain duties. He would vote for a Special Committee, anyother inference was but to smother disapprobation. Sirs N. COLTHIJ RST and H. PA RNEL L pres sed the Chancellor of the Exchequer to weigh the pressure on Ireland, and send the subject to the eta amination bf a Special Committee. Mr. BROUGHAM contended it 'was the only practicable course, as by sending it to the Finance Committee either its other comparatively more im portant duties must be suspended, or no regard would , be paid to the present subject. Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD to gratify all par. ties would press on his Right Hon. Friend, the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, to accede to the motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that he was not so wedded to his own opi- nion as to the manner of disposing of the present sub ject, as to decline taking the course must likely to Iratify those Gentlemen so intimately connected with reland. But he wished to say, that a plan had lately been before him for re-modelling the whole system rof the collection of the Assessed Taxes in Ireland, on which he had suspended his decision until he should avail himself of a local investigation on the spot. Sir JOHN NEWPORT suggested the propriety in consequence of the information the House had jua received, of withdrawing the motion. The presence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, lie sincerely trusted, would hare the beneficial effect of establish ing that long wanted desideratum in Ireland, an ef ficient check on the Collectors of the public money (War, bar,) —as there WJS scarcely a year but there were detalcations to a considerable Aanouut ; iu some instances as much as /120,000. Mr. SHAW, under the hope that he adopted the course most beneficial to his constituents, consented to withdraw his motion. FOUSIGN LINENS. Mr. FINLAY in proposing the motion of which he had given notice, felt he had to contend with the strongest prejudices on the part of the Manufacturers of Irish Linen. It was surprising that these preju dices should continue, when the fullest investigation must convince every reasonable mind, that the in. creased and unparalleled amount of the transit duties on Foreign Linens were wholly inoperative in their protection of Irish Linens, at the same time, that it went to injure most materially the general trade of the Empire. . German Linens were novisent from all the free ports of the Continent, to South America, and this country lost • not alone that trade, but even the assorted cargoes that these foreign vessels would, without these transit duties, otherwise purchase in this country. He trusted Government would take the measure into its serious consideration, and not' suffer the interested motives, or rather the ignorant prejudices of others, to continue a system of material injury to the general commerce of the Empire. .He concluded with moving, that there be laid before the House, a copy of the Memorial of the Merchants en gaged in the ham and Export Trakof the City of Lord ln. re. pet! iig tle transit duti.e on Porch Linens. addreisvo to t!!e Lords Commi.sionerc•ot tr 4 Tre.tsnry alr. KNOX would not nppme the motion, b et mist at the e time time say, that the thecries of tte Honoureble Member were best answered by the fact, that the exportation of Irish Linens was eacreatise even since the peace. In 1812 there was etrettei tl.rp millions of yard.—in e.7—and in IEI4, 40 millions. It was natural, therefore, that they theuld feel a predilection far the cot:tint:ince of a system ue. der which that important manutacture was protecte , :. Mr. T. ROBINSON observed, that when he ad. s t b e i ss c rd t: t o: I the c last Lin year,Linen 8 , a a ; tit ! s r oa e ft a 'Treasury maniac benefit s enn i , n e t ifi t i e t t e that t expect that it would have met with so telfavnerable a reception. The f set was, Irish menufacturer did receive during the 14:47, be these Transit Duties, was wholly removed, now :hat the flags of all nations could carry, as they did c.ry, the German Linens to the South American ports.— The variation in the amount of the Duties proved that the fiireign vessels did not any longer visit uer ports to complete their cargoes. But evert as the law now stood, vessels belonging to Hemieirgli A cargo of Foreign Linens, ci eh!, se they eid ree break bulk, take in any other article they may ;rant. He mentioned this, because the Irish ineeut.cturms conceived the very inducement of the ass e ( t it Cargo would compel foreign vessels to take the lash linens under the severe duties now imposed on the transit. Still he did not believe that ..ny thing could be imme. di,tely done under the prejudices that still existed in Ireland, though he was glad to find that better infote telation had. in a degree, diminished their influence. Mr. PELL said, at precut all he should say was, that when the discussion came on, he ousted that Ireland would be treated with fairness, justice, and candour, which she had a right to expect atter the promisee which had been made to her by the Eighth Government. This question was of much imeort ance to Ireland, first, as it regarded her experts, which last year were £6,400,000, and of which the linen formed ,e3,0(100X1), while the corn was oafs .€BOO,OOO. In 1€96 the lines manufacture etigina ted in Ireland, and was protected at the experre of her woollen trade. The Lords had in that :ear pt. titioned his Majesty (King William 111,) te declare to Ireland, that the increase: of her wierliin vestals had excited great jealousy, and the Monte of Com mons had done the same, to which the King re: Fed, that he should do all that lay in his power ei courage the woollen and encourage the linen trade. On that promise it became the House surely ti etc still in justice to themselves and to Ireland. The predictions made, that her linen trade would fail, if the duties continued after the peace had failed, at the following abstract would shew :—ln 1810. the ex po: is were £2,300,000 ; in 1812, aC9.,590,001; in 1814, AC2.690,000 in 1815, see:,80o,o0u; ani, is I SIG, asl,ooo,ooo—thus proving au obvious tie:seats. The motion he would nut oppose, but merely that he should move for another peer to be pro duced at Use same time. Mr. MARRYAT believed the Irish trade w^i:'d have been better than even now, had the same ela nd been open as during the war. lie tiletight it had sustained much injury from the duties. 13... he was glad to see the disposition existing on butts sides to treat the question as it deserved. Mr. VESEY Fl IZGERALD would con sent to the Motion, and he was fully assured, %%Ten ever the subject should come on, that it would be fully and fairly discussed. Mr. CURWEN had been for the last few days at tending to a measure, which would certainly he of much benefit to Ireland. He alluded to some im provements which were proposed to be made in thi working of Flax, by which the linens of Ireland would be rendered as durable and as excellent la every point of view as those of any other country. cre M ase r. d D th E e N ex N po lS a ß b ß y O th W e p N t E ote s c a t i i d o , n tiltreaduortyjedh.a Ile d could not be supposed to speak from interested mo tives— (A lough) —but merely from a tepid to his country. Take of/ the duty and the trade was rained. Sir W. DOUGLAS bad no possible objection to the motion. Sir JOHN NEWPORT decidedly concurred with the Chief Secretary of Ireland, and tea it unnecessary to add any thing to what he had so eloquently stated. He hoped that the subject would be brought on early in next Session, that thus the people. of Ireland in terested in the linen trade might see the Hove: was disposed to du them justice, and to defend their ill. terests. This he was the more anxious should be the revie, because while Great Britain returned 5511 Members, Ireland levi only lOU, and it 1,45 there fore proper to show her that her interests were net forgotten, but would be, on the contrary, cereelly attcoded to. Mr. C'INLAY replied.—He contended his on , y motive was the good of the country,l% he had. as an iiidivideal, no interest in it.—The ruet!on was then agreed to. He moved (or a copy of a Memorial or 'be Gos-cr nor, Sec. of the Rassien Company, to the Leeds of the Tree-etry on the Linea trade.—Grdesed. the M L " in li et E t E tt i :d: ll o w f c'l lr f el ' a r n a l c( c .p n y tolifease.tnieem:-i4i r ulijec7 m Ordered. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCE-lET:ER. gave notice, that lie to-morrown:lv i e gl : 4 l , t (t t L h e e House at its rising adjourn to that day se instant.) INTENT' IN AID. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he was nuw rising to propose a measure, to ' which he was confident there could he o pposittun whatever. Indeed, the number of persons who 11.,if now pecuniary transactimpr, had increased to An un precedented extent, and the number of Extents had increased to a degree w!ich he believed had never been anticipated by Government or the Courts ef Law. When the Act wt Henry the Eighth a, piss ed, Lew persons h,d money transactions with Gov. fo ment. A great advantage of the propi.sed nie.4.ure ' would be to prevent abuse by extinguishing tempts- Lion. The principle of it was, that no Extent shrin:d be issued fur a suns greater than that for %shirr' the debtor was accountable to the Crown, and that the sum obtained by virtue of that Extent sheuld be ap plicable to the Crown debt, and to no nth t purpose. If the House gave him leave to bring in the Bill, he should move that it be printed, and taken into consi deratiou on any day that might suit their eoavel ient...2.ce,