Star. — London, England, 1821-04-07 00:00:00

MI - "" r ; • • S.. , `I. • ~ . •-• % " ... ** • sib qbz • ‘II444I4IWITARY PROCEEpINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS. APRIL 6. Their Lordships met early to bear Appeal Causes from Scotland. ". Nasmyth w Hare." The Arromnir-Ontsam. was heard for the respondent, and Mr. Serjeant 13ozinatiet for the Viol lant.—Judgment postponed. 1 ' Sir James Montgomery v. the Marquis of Qneettsberry." Mr. CILAWSEOII was beard for the appellant—Further hearing postponed till Monday. The B..reak Assent was given by Commission to the Commer cial Intercourse Bill, the Husbandry Horses' Duty 11111; the Irish Attornles' Fees Bills the Irish wfiSturaft ler!' 80 , the GraMpound Witneeseslndemnity 11111;alid several Private Bills. The Gotandssioners were the Loma Csuaienzoa, the Earl of Sicsesessosv, sod. Lord fifecnit.• • Message was sent to the House of Commons, to request that Sir M. Lopez might have leave to attend the House on the Gmmpoupd Election Bill. Mr. Wanes, from the Office of the Court of King's Bench, presented the records of convictions for bribery at Elections in Cornwall, pursuant to the order of the House. The Innkeepers' Rates Bill was read a third time. and passed. ROMAN CATHOLIC CLAIMS. " toed SID MOUTH presented a Petition from the Dean and 'chapter of the Collegiate Church of St. Peter, Westminster, agkinst the Roman Catholic Claims. The Bishop of LONDON presented similar Petitions from the Clergy of Siun College • and from the Rector, Churchwar dens, and Inhabitants of the Parish of Christ Church, in Mid - dime, signed by 2,000 persons. Lord SIDMOUTII also presented a Petition against the Roman Catholic. Bill from the Royal Burgh of Stirling. . The Earl of SHAFTESBURY presented three Petitions to the same effect : one from the Parish of ilirchin, in the County of Hens • another from Sutton Coalfield, in Warwickshire; and Laird (rem the Royal Burgh of Dumfries. The Earl of DONOUGHMORR said be held in his hand a Petition from a very respectable body of Roman Catholic Cler gymen, who believed that some of the provisions in the Bill then before their . Lordships' House, tended to impose unneces sary severities on the Roman Catholic Church, and who there-, fore prayed that such parts of the 11111 might not pass into, a law. The Petitioners were die Roman Catholic Bishop and Clergy of the Diocese of Limerick, than whom there could not be a more respectable body of men ; nor were there any men in his Majes ty's dominions more distinguished for their exemplary and cor rect moral conduct. He should now content himself with moving that the Petition be read.—The Petition was read ac cordingly ; it stated that several provisions in the BM would subject them to a great deal of unnecessary vexation. The LORD CHANCELLOR said he felt it his duty to in timate to their Lordships, the incorrect manner in which this Petition was worded, and to express his doubts whether it could be received in its present form. It was inconsistent with the laws of this country for any persons to designate themselves as Roman Catholic Bishops in any Petition presented to Parliament. The Earl of DONOUGH MORE , in reply, said, that such a' designation had already been recognized by the taws of Ireland. One of the chief functions of the Roman Catholic Bishops in that country was the power of ordination ; and that was recog nized by law. A Roman Catholic Priest in Ireland might con form to, and be received into the Protestant Churc h, without any oth er ordination than that which be had received from a Roman Catholic Bishop. Such was the case with the late Mr. • Kirwan, a Gentleman of great taientsewho became a Minister of, and was advanced to preferments in the Established Church; and Mr. Kirwan never received any other than a Roman Ca. tholic ordination. This, therefore was a proof that Roman Catholic Bishops were acknowledg ed by the laws of Ireland. The LOAD CHANCELLOR said the Noble Earl misun derstood him. He had no doubt but that Roman Catholic Bishops might exercise their functions ; but the question was, whether there could be a Roman Catholic Bishop of Limerick, or of any other Diocese over which Protestant Bishops presided ? 'Could there be two Bishops with the same designation ? Ile had no doubt but that the person signing this Petition was a BishOp, nor did he mean to oppose she receiving of the Petition; but he should not have done his duty, if he did_ not candidly make the observation which be now suggested.-a The Petition was, re ceived, and the House adjourned to Monday. • HOUSE OF COMMONS. As soon as the Seaaxe.p. took the Chair, the House was sum moned to the House of Lords, in the usual manner, to hearths' Royal Assent given by Commission to several Bills. Mr. MA BER LEY moved for an Account of all Clerks ap. pointed in Civil Offices in England, Ireland, and Scotland, dia.. tinguishing each, since the Ist of January, 1816, with Abair Names and amount of Salaries ; and also for a Return of the Names of all Clerks and other Officers, whose services have been discontinued during the same period.—Ordered. Sir G. CLERK presented several Petitions from individuals balding offices in the Irish Courts of Law, whose Incomes would be affected by the Bill now pending in P arliament, praying to be -allowe compensation. The Irish (Wooers Bill was read a second time, and com mitted for Monday. The Irish Trial for Treason Bill was read a third time, and passed. 2118WIAGTON SELECT VESTRY BILL—CONDUCT OF TIIE CONIbIITTEE. Sir ROBERT WILSON rose, and said he wished to call the attention of the House to a subject, in his opinion, of deep importance. The House would re collect, that a question had been referred to a Select Committee, whether or not the Standing Orders of the House had been complied with In reference to thi; Bill? They reported in the affirmative, and the 13111 was then referred back to the original Committee. At the sitting of the Committee that day, a motion was made that the Report of the Select Committee be laid before them, which motion was negatived on a.division. He felt it his duty to move in the Corn . nituee that an adjournment do take place, in order to ascertain the sense of the House upon the propriety of the former proceeding. This motion was also ne gatived. Under these circumstances, he thought it to be his duty to lay the matter before the House, as it appeared to him to be the intention of those • who constituted the majority to blind justice, and prevent a full and impartial exposition of the l object before the whole of the Committee. He con cluded by 'moving- 41 That the Report of the Select Committee on the Standing Orders of the House, with respect to the Newington Select Vestry Bill, be refer wed - to the Committee on the said Bill." Mr. H. SU.MNER would not oppose tbis motion. He felt the subject to be one of the deepest import ance in its consequences, as it was one the most ex traordinary in its nature. He felt it to be his duty, as Chairman of that Committee, to bring the whole • case before the House. As soon as the state of the attendance of the House would justifyhim, he would bring forward a statement certainly in the spirit of a complaint, and at present should content himself. by merely giving that notice. Mr. lIUME thought that this,was the proper time for the H o nourable Member to bring forivard his complaint. He was sure that some Hon. Member ought to bring forward a complaint against 'the Hon. Chairman himself, and in case no one offered himself td perform that duty, he should feel himself called -upon to uhdertake it. Mr. H. SUMNER said, the only reason he had for delaying his statement was, that the House was alt . that 'moment very thin. Mr. HUME thought that this was rather a strange ground for postponing this trillitg . subject, 'seeing that so many millions of the public money were voted away by much thinner Houses. Perhaps the &lon. yx -a meant that he would wait for his frsends. - • . - • 111r.i.TTTLET'ON toot druknppartnnity of calling the attention of the Housetienerally to the manner in which privy :business was conducted. He thought it deserVed serious attention, and. gave notice of intention to bring the subject before the House during' the present Session. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW said, that . the ground of difference was this—a motion..was Made that the Re port of the Select Committee be read. Mr. LAMBTON said he was the person that made the motion, and it was, that the Report be laid before the Committee, and not that it should be then read. Mr. WYNN said, it was an unnecessary motion altogether, for every Member of the Committee had an opportunity of referring to the Journals, where the Report was to be found. Mr. F. , PALMER complained, that it appeared to be the intention of one part of the Committee to re fuse information to the ether. Mr. H. SUMNER said, he would persist in his in tention to wait for a full House. He begged to say, •that the motion of the Hon. Member (Mr. Lambton) was, that the Report of the Committee be then read. • Mr. LAMBTON.—I say not. Mr. S. WORTLEY suggested the propriety of the House allowing the private business to be disposed of. After a few words from Mr. PETER Moose, Mr. COURTENAY, and Sir ROBERT HERON, the question was put and carried. Mr. HUME then rose to bring forward his motion and was called to order by Mr. COIJRTENAY, who submitted it was dis orderly to press this business before the private busi ness was disposed of. Mr. HUME appealed to the House to say, whe-• ther he was disorderly ? The SPEAK ER said, the House would see that. it was not•tor the Chair to 'decide when a motion of this description was to be discussed. , Mr. HUME then proceeded to state, that it was his intention to conclude what he had to say with proposing a vote of censure on the Member for Sur rey, for his conduct as Chairman of the Committee. The Hon. Member then proceeded to state the facts which had transpired. It was proposed by the Mem ber for Durhtm that the Select Committee's Report should be referred to the Committee. This was op posed by the Chairman, and, on a division, the Chair man carried the question. Being thus without in formation, a gallant Generals a Member of the Cote mittee, proposed adjournment ; when, as the Com.' mittee were about to divide, Mr. Sykes, Mr. Bennett, and another Member entered the room, and were about to proceed to join in the division, when the . Chairman insisted they should not be allowed to vote. On the other side, it was contended, they had a right ' to vote, but the Chairman, without any question to the Ccimmittee, directed the Cleric to take down the names of certain Gentlemen as not entitled to vote, and ordered the, Member for Shrewsbury to leave the room : a scene of confusion then ensued, such as he had never seen in any Meeting, high of low. A division upon the question did ultimately take place, when Mr. Bennett and Lord Lowther were named Tent s. After the division, the Tellers handed up' their report to the Chair ; but the Chairman, without any observation, declared, " 111 not read it," and. threw it away ; a scene of general 'confusion fol ' lowed on both sides, .and continued from that time; -trit the time the Committee came down to the Housei He'should now move a Resolution, that the Member for Surrey, by his conduct in the Chair of that Com mittee, and by his interference, had been the occa don of that confusion. Mr. WYNN submitted thatthe course now adopted was extremely inconvenient. as the House was called on to take this matter on the •statement of an Hon. Member only;' and on that statement to censure another Hon. Member. Mr. WROTTESLEY thought time for inquiry necessary Land therefore would propose that the present debate should be adjourned. The SPEAKER thought time should be allowed for inquiry, and that the'Minutes of the proceedings before the Committee, up to the latest period, should also be produced. Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH thought this matter ought to go no further, as he was convinced the in quiry could not redound to the credit of any indivi dual, but must serve to discredit the proceedings altogether. The motion of his Honourable Friend was a defensive Motion, only made in consequence of the notice of the Chairman, that he intended to bring forward a charge. If the Honourable Chair man would withdraw his notice, give up the cha ricter of Accuser, and resume that of Chairman, he had no doubt but his Honourable Friend would withdraw his motion. Mr. H. SUMNER could not accede to this pro position ; he was prepared either to go on with his accusation, or to make his defence. Mr. WYNN thought this discussion should at least be delayed till Monday, to give time for irrita tion to subside. Mr. DENNISON hoped this course would be adopted; and that the subject would be suffered to rest till Monday, when the parties would be cooler; and he hoped the Committee would then meet, shake hands, and proceed amicably with the Bill. Mr. H. SUMNER could not agree to this proposi tion for letting the matter drop entirely; after what had passed, he did not believe the Committee could meet and proceed amicably. He was conscious of not having erred, and would not flinch from the charge ; though he had no objection to postponing the discussion for forty-eight hours. Mr. BENNETT could not agree to postpone it for hour. . He was convinced, whenever the subject Sias discussed, there would be direct difference of testimony—that there would - be twenty-five Gentle men on one side, and twenty-five on the other This had been proved ; for it was already insisted by an Honourable Friend of his, that he put one duestion, whilst the Chairman declared he put on e ' irectly different--(Hear, hear).—This was the i ' Starting point—(4 laugh ).-- Now one thing wail 'certain, iertain, namely, that all which now passed would go out to the Public, and would be read by every one who understood the English language--(Hear, Afar), Now he asked whether it would redound' to their credit or not for it to be published to the world, that fifty Gentlemen could , not meet in a Committee, where difference of opinion- existed, without getting into a passion? He, for one, was now ready to forget all angry feeling, to meet again in the Committee, and to proceed with the Bill; • • Z. 4.--'7.="4,11/47- ~.i::ri T ~'~' • ry and would thereehre Fume that this subject be ad journed sure die. Tice SPEAKER entered into a review of the cir cumstances conflicted with this transaction ; and, in the course of his obserirations, declared his opi nion, that Membets coming into the Committee. room, in the interval between putting the Question and Strangers withdrawing, were not entitled. to vote in a Committee.—The question was then with drawn, and here the subject dropped. • PETITIONS. Mr. HEATHCOTE presented a Petition from Humberstone, praying relief from the public bur thens. The Honourable Member expressed his hopes that this Session would not be suffered to expire with out some step being taken to reduce taxation. He could not refrain from expressing his regret that so fair an opportunity of relieving the People at large, and the Agricultural Interest in particular, as a re peal of the Malt Tax would have afforded, should, have been suffered to escape as it had done. The Petition was received. Sir R. HERON expressed similar regret, on pre-' senting a Petition from Stamford, praying a repeal of the Malt Tax. CHURCH BRIEFS BILL. On the Order of the Day for the second leading of the Church Briefs Bill being moved by Mr. LET TLETON, Mr. CURWEN said, much praise was due to the ,rable Member for having brought this Bill for though there were some parts of the detail imposed expenses on Parishes, to which he ob -, and• which he hoped would.be omitted. Mr. MONCK objected to that part of the Bill which proposed to make it imperative on the Church wardens to gb from door to door through the Parish, collecting. 'This, in many extensive Parishes, would be a very troublesome duty to impose on them. Mr. LYTTLETON said, if there was such a clause in the Bill as that which the Honourable Member al luded to, it was copied from the old Bill. He should propose, however, to abolish the collection from dom to door ; and propose, instead thereof, that the col lection should be made from pew to pew in the Church, after the Communion Service.—The Bill was read a second time, and committed for Monday. ward, which MRTROPOLITAK ROADS BILL. Mr. D. GILBERT, in moving the second reading of the Metropolis Roads Bill, regretted the absence of the Honourable Gentleman who brought in the measure. The Honourable Member entered into a detail of the measure, and said the principal defect of the present system was the minute division of Trusts, and the natural increase of private Bills. Se veral Bills were now in the House for consolidating the Trusts in various parts of the kingdom ; and be was fully persuaded great tenefit would be found from consolidating those Trusts round the Metropo lis. He had now only to call on the House to suffer the Bill to be read a second time, and in the Com mittee the minute arrangements might be made. He understood there were some roads round the Metro- polis which were already excellent; among these w ere the Essex roads ; with these he had no wish to interfere. A report had gone abroad, that the Com mittee entertained an intention to place the roads un der the Executive Government ; no such intention had ever been entertained ; as such a measure could only be productive of evils and jobs. The Committee had no interest whatever in the subject, nor was it contemplated that any one connected with the Exe cutive Government should be in the Trust. 1-le should depart from the original plan of sending the Bill to a Committee up stairs, but should it go to a Committee of the whole House, :to efforts should be wanting to make the Bill as perfect as possible. Sir E. KNATCHBULL opposed the Bill, from no other considerations but those of public duty. The Bill proceeded on the assumption of the bad state of l the roads ; but it was a well-known fact. that the roads round the Metropolis had been gradually im proving, and a local Bill would have been far pre ferable. This Bill was very objectionable to the gra tuitous Trustees of the Roads about the Metropolis. He also objected to the clause by which no Attorney or Solicitor should act as Clerk to the Trust, which he considered an unwarrantable stigma upon that pro fession. He believed that a great majority of those concerned would oppose the measure. He should move as an Amendment, that the Bill be read a se cond time that day six mouths. Mr. DENNISON opposed the Bill, as wholly us called for by the state of the roads in the vicinity the metropolis. He thought one of the provisions cast an unwarrantable stigma on the profession of the law. He should'second the Amendment. Mr. - CURWEN thought the Bill one of the most extraordinary ever biought before the House. He understood that £4,000 had been given to Mr. M'Adam. Who were to be the auditors of the ac counts? The Trustees under the present plan re ceived no salary ; and he must oppose the Bill. Mr. F. LEWIS should be sorry if the Bill was dis posed of in the summary mode that had been pro posed. The goodness of the roads was not the single question, but at what expense were they made good ? A few Trusts that were proposed to be consolidated, amounted to £150,000 a-year, and the object might be accomplished at half the expense; and great incon venience had arisen from the employthent of Solici tors as Clerks to Trusts. Mr. CALCRAFT said, that the former Trustees regarded this as a bill of indictment against them. The roads near London were fully as good as any others. The roads to the south of London were to be excluded from the Bill ; but he (Mr. Calcraft) wished the exclusion to be much more extensive. Out of 55 Trusts 35 had petitioned against the Bill. No charge of corruption or mismanagement had been brought against the Trustees. If the Bill came to a second readiug, he hoped it would be sent up stairs. Sir H. PARNELL thought the Bill justifiable from the. state of the roads: from an inquiry formerly made, it appeared that the roads had been in a vet y bad state. The roads near London might be made much better at half the present expense. Mr. H. SUMNER praised the labours of the Com mittee, and thought the Bill should be read a second time. He should move that the Bill be referred to a Committee up stairs, ifit should be read a second time. • The House divided.—For the second reading, 83— Against it, .16. . . . Mr. D. GILBERT said, he should move that the Bill be referred to a Seiect Committee. Mr. CALCRAFT asked if tie Chattedkir of t h e Etchequer was to indemnify the different Trusts;? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER laid. 'that the Treasury had no power over money gran te d for public services ' • it rested wholly with the a lit . tnissioners for such services. Lord MILTON stated, that after Easter be show move for the repeal of the Duty an Foyeignl, l 4 o l. He also moved for au account of all Foregn We e d imported sincelBls. suert.y--iiititv Erni/km. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER the Order of the Day for the House to resolv i e l e into a Committee of Supply on the Army Beehze, Mr. CREEVEY rose to oppose the motion, doing so he felt that he had a disagreeable hallo,. cessary duty to perform. It could not be pleehasfe to him to introduce topics which in themselverwers most unpleasant, but when he saw no dispo l k whatever on the part of the Ministers of the Crows to economise the public money, he could not corneal' to indulge them in any votes which they might thialt proper to propose. In the very teeth of the sun. lappeals made to them by the country at large, t h ey went on in their career of profuse extravagance, a n d there were no bounds to the lengths they were in. dined to run—(Hear, hear).—Several Hon. Friends had wished that the country should revert to the Peace Establishment of 1792, but all their sego, menu were disregarded; and but little attention had been paid to the zealous endeavours for economy which had been made by one Hon. Friend of his (Mr. Hume), whose exertions in the cause had gained him the warm approbation of every honest maul— ( Loud cries of " Ilear, hear.")—The • Members of that House were the reputed trustees of the People; but they did not act the part of upright trustees, for they lived on the property—(Cheers).—Yes, he tee . tended that they gave the property of the PeOple to their hangers-on, servants, and retainers. He c wish to see the People of England represented by Idelegates, who should hold a conference with die House at the Bar. He could wish to have seen thsi ' delegates conferring with the trustees within the ten days. In his opinion they would say to thak were such a meeting to take place, " We wpm. Gentlemen Trustees, you are making a good Oieggi us r'—(Alaugh).— The Hon. Member then boob ously commented on the late decision of the ifiaie with respect to the Malt Tax. The Noble Logi.. polite (Castlereagh) bad, on a former night, whelk was outvoted on the question of the Malt Tax, mislot an Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Sir J. Mackintosh " do not halloo before you are out of the wood r_ (Continued cheering and laughter).—Such terms be (Mr. Creevey) never could forget; and be was pee suaded that the People of England would not foist them either—f Hear, hear).—The Noble Lord—tie managing trustee he might be called—had -Ma is good as his word ; he had summoned his wool* from all quarters, even from Devonshire; and the motion for reduction, which had before been carried by a majority of 25, was in consequence Deg:drat by a majority of 98—( Load cheering).—This tact spoke volumes; but it was not all : a Noble Lord, a Northern Grandee, the 'Thane of Fiji, bad foam a victim to his honest vote: he had lost 1.:800a-yearby it—( Hear).-- This was a direct attack upon the pri oilers of Parliament. What had become of the 41on. Member for Yorkshire (Mr. S. Wortley)?— Where was that redoubted champion of priviter the Member for Montgomery (Mr. Wynn)?- - printer of some poor paragraph against the would instantly have been * a breach of privile the grossest attack on they were dumb and t. to make a man sick of more sick of its champ In the reign of Elizal occasion iomewlaat of tion to supply = " All it might be now asserted force: yet there was went even in the .reign (Cheers from the Mr rather an interested from whom it came—, —lt was an historical i. was treated very roughl , coughed loudly, and 1 an indignant and coat l.sessed such men as Sir Bacon, and then no People " not to halloo wood"—(Hear,hearl up a Resolution on , timents, and which he without much hopes I following Resolution. " That during the present have been presented to this , dons, and from every description statements of distress hitherto • uniformly demanding, as the strictest possible economy money; that the statements been fully confirmed by ' Members of this House and yet, notveithstandia the Mersin estimates . hitherto been proceeaed such purposes, without by this House, although - the same. That this 110116* opinion, that this marked fr to the sufferings of its cot following fact, via.—Tbat of this House derive for !' dependants, large pecuniary I. and as such provisions fur the 1. altogether useless or grossly ov. objects for immediate extinction disposers of them in this V in resisting every species in addition to this gnat form, the House has lately w. tion, the influence of the Crown House, in a manner the mos avowed object of interfering w. of their duty to their constituents, held the office of one of the Lords jesty, having.recently declared in 1 of its Members, that he had bee Lord of the Bed chamber to his M voted in this House in favour of t " That, under all these circus' it will better consult its own hos lie, by immediately inquiring than ht going into Committees of the People, without xhr Coautry ."—(ft eau r mica With anal e been laid by 'the 'heels by - ilege ; but let the Cropu •• on the rights of Parlioident, aril submissive. Was not this aural of the word privilege, and • • opions?—(Continuedcheethr4 • abeth, Serjeant Fortescoe, on of this kind, replied to 1111 • . ii is the Queen s by ri : r erred that " xii is the • 's. u much more decenctid reign of Elizabeth than Ministerial .6endies).—That shout ; it was very easy 0. -( Cheers front the Offal* al tact, however, that . ughly for his assertion ;the . id finally smothered bis - wic k mtinued hoot. Yet that it t. 166. lir Walter Raleigh salami D man had ventured to tell lk 100 before they were oats( 1. —He (Mr. Creevepbaddc" the subject, expresavedbis he submitted for adoption; sof success. He this Oat n resent Session of. Parlsinek. this Hciuse from every pot d description of its pepsiatilli Hitherto unheard of in lie Milt is one species el relief to • :onomy in the expenditure d tie vents so made have, is veer? • y the local information of the' me who have presented loch ng such universal applies:loos fit for the public service for the id in, and millions of own said any the least possible red's:ties is repeated efforts have been mak" House entertains the 'trona ted indifference of the • constituents, is mainly atttestoo ll bat a very numerous body silk r themselves, their fa • • • Diary provision from the aim du• fur the most part are ntadeekkr /rosily overpaid, and Wife , ezdnetion or reduction, so tk his House have a direct row es of economical Reform whstora r _ at permanent bar to an re am lately witnessed, with the greaten beCrown displayed by its 6011" 116 to most arbitrary, and with rfering with its rt.lembers in *Y . constituents, the Earl of Hfsi o d h f ec e th lar bad e 14 ed been this rdsof dianwea di pl e are lledellamber ie ddsfropr:l°4 ber to his Majesty, in D favour of a to retail a " l er h ese c ircumstances, this flown k Xs own honour, and t he into,* d 7 ,mormiltqueddiyttilleneugithssuoliediSUttoestptheptrieffrethefrolyirtnutetoteo Inpidirilif 1.416, rte: ~, or w~ wl IP 41 thq M N th Pi .~ '4 "11 71; - - 111 .., . • •;.• - • • 4 -• :. -I ,