Star. — London, England, 1821-06-30 00:00:00

as If IA )1e is as (*.Palmer) faun I that the People of England 'had a strong feeling o t any question, that circumstance always had, and ever would have, great weight arith him. Members on his side of the House were accused of having occasioned the angry feeling had existed in the country . But had it not in she power of Ministers to stop the trial which they bad instituted against her Majesty ?—..(Hear, hear). If they (the Ministers) had assumed a firm and be coming tone, that trial had never disgraced the coun try; and the angry feelings which it excited would never have been known—(Hear, hear). As to a wish on his side of the House to occasion a war, what, he he would ask, had been the object of the motion al luded to? Only this—that our Government would declare, in the face of Europe, that it was not con nected with the Holy Alliance, and that it disap proved of interference with the internal arrangements of independent nations—(Hear, hear). Mr. W. SMITH said it really never had occurred to him before that Members on his side had excited all the inflammation connected with the proceedings against the Queen. Nor did he see any inconsistency in their wishing to avoid the expenses of the Corona tion, even although they had wished to prevent wars against the liberty and independence of other nations —(,clear, hear). The career of Austria had been prosperous. It might have been otherwise, and the consequences might have involved us in war. Had there been any improvidence in desiring to avert this? The Noble Marquis said the Coronation was a part of the Constitution.—[Lord Londonderry as sented.j—He (Mr. Smith) did think that the Go vernment would go on as strongly, and as much fixed in the affections of the people, if this ceremony was waved. There was nothing in it to add one particle to the obligation which bound the People to the So vtitign, or the Sovereign to the People. If it were waved for the purpose of saving the expenses to the 'People, that would have more effect than a cete mony twenty times more splendid. The People of this country had now too much sense to confound forms with substances. hat asl gh• ling /Atli Mr. B. BATH ritsT said that a Coronation had always taken place on the accession of the Sovereign. The Coronation oath had been since the Revolution part of the law of the land, and could not be admi nistered but at the Coronation. (The Right Ho noarable Gentleman here read an extract from the Statute in proof of his statement). The Coronation could not be viewed but as an august ceremony, in which the King was, for the first time, introduced in that capacity to the People, The Noble Lord (Mil ton) might smile ; but the practice of passing laws in a foreign language, as all our laws were once passed, might as well excite a smile, and had, in fact, often excited it. A Coronation had hitherto been regarded as a reverend ceremony ; its expenses were extremely beneficial to the labourer and the manufacturer; and were felt to be so at this moment. There were many public entertainments given at great expense through out the country. Why should the Coronation be the only entertainment which was objected to ? As to the interference with the continental 'Cations prevent ing war, it might at least as naturally occasion W The spirit of discontent respecting the trial of til t Queen had been excited by the speeches of Honour able Members opposite. Mr. HOBHOUSE thought it was incumbent upon some Gentleman to reply to a few of the observa tions of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The first rea son assigned by the Right Hon. Gentleman for a Coronation, seemed to be something of this sort. As the People were disgusted and nauseated with such shows, it was proper to force the Coronation down their throats, in order to oblige them to take plea sure in it for the future. This was somewhat of a singular reason. It was not to be repeated once a year, but once in a reign ; yet he did not see why, even upon this ground, so expensive a ceremony should be exhibited.' The next reason was, that the Coronation had already occasioned great expense, and therefore we ought to do—what? to go on with more expenses in order to cover those already in curred. A. third reason was, that those expenses did good to the laborious classes. But he did net find a Coronation recommended for that purpose by the. Agricultural Committee !—(A laugh). If it gave by the one hand, it took more largely with the other. Was it indeed a ceremony that had the magical ef fect of conjuring gold from the pockets of the rich into the hands of the poor? It was not; it was pro vided for by taxation ; and taxation affected the poor at least as much as the rich. Another argument hod been, that it was absolutely necessary, because it was ordered by law. Why ? Because there was an oath at the Coronation. But what was enjoined as a con comitant circumstance, was not necessary if the act to which that circumstance was to be concomitant did not take place. A Lord Chamberlain might be required to attend the Queen at her Coronation ; did it follow that though there should be no Queen to be crowned, the Queen's Lord Chamberlain must at tend a Coronation? He should like to know what the country had gained by the last Coronation oath taken in this country. They had gained nothing by it but the defeat of what the Noble Lord (London derry) now said was essential to the best interests of the country—he meant Catholic emancipation. It was quite evident that the King could not be de prived of a single power, though he should not have a Coronation. He very much doubted, indeed, the legality of crowning the King without also crowning the Queen. But into that question he would not then enter. When the Noble Marquis accused Members on his side of degrading the Coronation, he (Mr. Hob house) thought the charge came with an ill grace from those who excluded from the Coronation the Queen— “ the ornament of society," and certainly, therefore, the ts life, grace, and ornament" of the Coronation. (Hear). His side had never recommended going into a war ; but they had recommended several steps which might have prevented a war, and one of them had been to claim the money due to us by Austria. Oa his side of the House, too, they had done all in their power to prevent the proceedings which had really excited dissatisfaction of the strongest and most deci sive nature throughout the country. He (Mr. Hob louse) had gone out in a minority of thirteen to stop the proceedings when they had been made mere ap peadsges to the House of Lords. Th e N o bl e Mar quis might well now accuse them of having excited the dissatisfaction which he had himself with his Colleagues roused so high that it terrified them from their attempt. It well became bin!, too, to accuse others of emissary views and jaundiced eyel l for in the Noble Lord's visions he saw the people full of affection for his measures, and abounding with all the comforts that men could enjoy. In the Noble Lord's eyes no colours were distinguished but those which marked the splendour of the Court, or the power of the Military—(Hear, hear, hear).—With re spect to the question immediately before the House, he would vote, as he had voted before, against the claims of his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence. He contended that it was quite proper in that House ' to give a greater sum to one for whom they had greater esteem than another. He did not say that it was so in the present case ; he only meant to say that when such a vote came before Parliament, personal considerations did form a proper part of the question, and they had a right to estimate personal character. Here he would most decidedly vote against the grant—(Hear, hear). Lord MILTON said, he was quite indifferent as to the Coronation. In former times great regard had been paid to such shews ;it was not so now. The King was not an iota less respected now than if he were crowned. The oath of allegiance was required by law, as well as the Coronation oath. Yet many thousands never took it, who were not on that ac count less faithful subjects—(Hear, hear).—As to the 'mode of passing laws, if it were a matter of import ance enoughlar legislation, it would be better to have it altered, and ordered to be done in English. Mr. CREEVEY said, he would not then divide the House, because he could not separate the grant from the arrears. The House then went into the Committee. Mr. HUME moved that the sth of April, 1821, be substituted for the sth of April, 1818. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY disclaimed and prOtested against the supposition that there was anything in the case of her Majesty against this grant to his Royal Highness the Duke of Clarence. There had been nothing in her life afterwards different from her situation when she had refused the Parliamentary grant, whereas his Royal Highness had contemplated a different course of life, namely, residence abroad. Circumstances had prevented him from that, and those circumstances the country could not fail to ap preciate. In this country he could not stand in the situation in which the country would wish him to stand, without an ampler allowance; for his do mestic establishment, highly creditable to his Royal Highness, and satisfactory to all who knew it, was most painful to himself, owing to the circumscribed allowance which he had received from Parliament. Under these circumstances, he could not see that the proposal now made was unwarranted, or could be disapproved of by the House. Mr. HUME stated, that the difference between this case and the Queen's was, that one was volun tary, the other compulsory. The Noble is had himself caused the refusal, and it wastherefore no wonder that he was now anxious to repair the bss occasioned to his Royal Highness. He (Mr. Hume) considered it a most imprudent and improper grant. The House then divided, when the numbers were— For the original Motion - - 54 Against it . 24 Majority - - - The House thin resumed, and the Report was or dered to be received tomorrow. LOTTIRT SILL. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the second reading of this Bill. Mr. BENNETT protested against this Bill, as an encouragement to immorality and vice —(Hear). — He believed it had a greater tendency to fill the pri sons with culprits, than all other public measures put together—(Hear). Mr. MONCK hoped this would be the last time his Majesty's Ministers would resort to this means of in creasing the Revenue. Sir S. MORLAND hoped, if the measure were resorted to again it would be very much reduced in extent. The public taste was beginning to slacken with respect to it; and he hoped, if it were not put an end to in any other way, it would by that means. Mr. BROUGHAM was the less mortified at the silence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because he knew what he would say. He knew that he would say, in reply to these complaints, that he could not afford to give up the measure in the present state of the finances. This was the very excuse the Portn suese offered for continuing the abominable traffic in slaves—(Hear).—The Public knew that the whole system was a cheat ; that the Lottery Tickets were an imposition ; and he hoped that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer could continue. after this to profit by such means, that the People would foil him by deserting the plan altogether. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday. the in tele re :r-- 'red itics >a)• i 126 ~~~ ~ _ .., APPROPRIATION RILL. On the motion cf the CMA.NCELLOR of the Exci te QUl& the House went into a Committee on the Ap. propriation Mr. HUME assured the House he did not mean to enter into a lengthened discussion on this Bill.— The Honourable Member adverted to certain prac tices prevalent in different branches of the Army, which he trusted the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Pal merston) would revise before next Session. Amongst the things to which he called the attention of the No ble Lord, was the expensive mode of carrying on the recruiting of the Army. Four or five serjeants were now employed, when one was found sufficient for merly, and he was sure that a great saving might be effected by returning to the ancient method. Much beneficial alteration might be made in the Irish De partment. He should recommend that Kilmainham and Chelsea Hospitals should be consolidated, which would create a saving of £2.5,000. He should also recommend the Noble Lord to make all the Irish De-, partments more dependent on London. With regard to the Navy, he hoped the Hon. Baronet opposite would not take it amiss, if he recommended also a revision in some of the arrangements in the Dock Yards. He saw no reason why there should be a full Admiral at Plymouth and at Portsmouth, when in time of war a Vice-Admiral was found sufficient.— By curtailing this unnecessary piece of expenditure, a saving of £5OOO a•year would be effected. With reference to the Ordnance Department, he thought he had clearly shewn* the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ward) who so ably conducted the affairs of that branch of public service, that the expenditure might be reduced £216,000, and even up to t. 400,000. — There was much useless labour belonging to this De partment that might be got rid of. In the present state of the country, it was incumbent upon the Go. vernment to make all diligent search for such bur dens as could be spared. In the efforts he had made in the course of the Session, he had been actuated by, this conviction alone, and he begged to assure the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, that no feeling of a personal nature bad at all entered into his motives, against the Heads of Departments—(Hear).—Seeing the Noble Marquis in his place, he begged to say, with respect to the Address to his Majesty which he had proposed the other night, that that adopted by the Noble Lord was far superior to his own.— He was sorry he had given the House the trouble to divide upon it; for he now thought it more binding in its nature, and in every respect more proper than his own. It would have been better that the House had been unanimous with Ministers in their engage ment to revise all the departments of public service, in order to effect economical arrangements. He hoped, however, that the reductions that might be made would not be amongst those classes of persons whose salaries at present were scarcely sufficient for their support—(Hear, hear).—He hoped the reduc tions would be made among persons of high station, who took a great deal of the public money, and did little or nothing for it—( Hear, hear).—When he (Mr. Hume) first began his labours, at the commencement of the Session, an Honourable Gentleman oppositt very angrily told him, that if he continued as he be gan, he would be a most dangerous character. He replied, that he should eventually prove himself the best friend the Noble Marquis had. He thought he had done so; for the country would feel more in debted to his Lordship for the resolution he had come to, to reduce the really useless expense, than foi any other act of that Sessioa—(Hear, hear). The Marquis of LONDONDERRY assured the Hon. Gentleman, .that in preferring the Address he had adopted the other evening, he did so because it was more obligatory upon Government to pursue economy in reality. From the good humour which the Hon. Member had just evinced, he was happy to find that his labours in the course of the Session had not soured his temper. The Hon. Gentleman was going to enjoy the society of his friends, with whom, he had no doubt, his wonted good humour would be a great acquisition. For his own part, he wished him all happiness, and begged to assure him that he should be ready to meet him next Session, and dis cuss all the matters they had contested in the pre sent Session over again. Several clauses having been read and agreed to, the Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit'again to-morrow. METROPOLIS POLICE BILL. The House went into a Committee on the Metro polis Police Bill. Mr. BENNETT objected to a clause in this Bill, empowering Police Officers to apprehend ill-disposed and suspected persons. He could not consent to put into the hands of Police Officers, who were needy persons, power so great upon such vague definition. He looked upon them as they had been described by one of themselves, as dangerous animals. The Hon. Member particularly adverted to the state of the public Parks and public places, which were so ill guarded that it was impossible for reputable females or peaceable persons to pass through them without danger of being insulted. It was said that the Parks were shut at night ; but he knew they were open to foot-passengers. kre had no objection to there being ,Rangers to the public Parks; but he did expect that pert of what they received, shonldgo to keep the Parks in a state, at least, fit for respectable people to pass through them at night. He now came to speak of another great nuisance. The House were whaps aware that no fewer than SS or 84 fairs were held in the course of the summer. Fairs, in ancient times, were markets for the sale of goods, when shops were few and remote from each other. At present, they presented but an assemblage of all that was vi cious and infamous, and more youth of both sexes were ruined than at any other places of public resort. Within gun-shot of that House, a fair was held, in Tothill-fields, which the late Mr. Fielding had told a Committee of that House it was net in the power of the Metropolis to put down. At that fair animals were baited till their tongues were torn out, and gambling rooms were established which were not molested. By some fatality it happened that those institutions were best maintained which had the great est tendency to debauch the manners of the people. He had been to that fair (as he wished as much as possible to see with his own eyes those things which were matter of complaint), he had been there in the morning, and he had been there in the "ening, and he must say, that scenes more disgraceful to the Po lice of the country than those which were there exhi bited, he had never witnessed. He then noticed the occurrences which had taken :place at West End Fair, for which some individuals had lost their lives. One of these, a gypsey lad, was little better.than a child. He was not much taller than the table on which he then laid his hand. The case, he knew; had been under the consideration of an Hon. Gentleman opposite, but it was thofight necessary to carry the laws into effect, partly because the offender had used some dreadful expressions, urging greater violence against some man or woman who was thrown down: Every Magistrate with whom he had the honour to be connected, agreed with him in the opinion he had expressed on that subject. The SQLICITOR-GENERAL concurred in many of the remarks of the Honourable Gentleman; but the clause to which he had objected was no new one, but had existed from 1708 down to the present time. In the course of his experience he knew no instance of the power being abused. Dr. LUSHINGTON believed that a great part of the crimes which filled the jails of the metropolis took their rise from the fairs. He was at West End Fair while the excesses were committed between six and seven o'clock on a summer evening, and the Po• lice were wholly unable to put the thieves down. He should himself, next Session, bring forward a mea sure on the subject, should it not attract the notice of Ministers. SW W. DE CRESPIGNY agreed with the Ho nourable Members near him, that the sirs near the metropolis ought to be suppressed, and he joined with them in complaining of the state of the Parks. The clause, with some verbal alterationi, was then agreed to, as were the remaining clauses. The House then resumed, and -the Report of this Committee was ordered to be received to-morrow. NZTRA POST SILL., Qn its being moved that the House should go into a Committee on the Extra Post Bill, Dr. LUSHINGTON rose to oppose the Bill. The : Report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the merits of this measure, he held to be of no im.; portance, as it merely gave an opinion without stating any definite grounds for the opinion so given. If the mails were beaten in some few roads, this did not prove the Bill to be necessary unless it could be shewn that letters could he sent by some public con veyance about the same time that the mails went out, so as to interfere with them. It was no answer to him to tell him that a coach that left London at seven in the morning went faster than the mail. A letter sent by such a conveyance, however slowly it went, must get to its destination sooner than anything sent by the mail on the following night, at the most rapid rate at which it was purposed to travel. If the new mail, driving at the rate of eleven miles an hour, should run over any person, and that person should die in consequence, it would not be a justifiable homicide. Some years ago a man was killed in this way. The coac!anan knew nothing of the matter at the time, but, on being brought to his trial for man slaughter, he stated that he had orders from the Post Office to drive at the rate of nine miles an hour. The Learned Judge who tried the case, however, held this to be no defence, as neither the Post Office nor any other body had aright to order him to drive at such a rate as would endanger the lives of his Ma jesty's subjects. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL considered the loss of a life in this way might be viewed as a justifiable homicide. Dr. LUSHINGTON said, in such a cue the feel ings of a man would not be a justifiable homicide. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL thought it would be in the absence of all intention to do injury to any ' one on the part of the driver. Dr. LUSHINGTON maintained that in that case the verdict must not be e° Justifiable Homicide, " but Accidental Death." He thought it would b e im possible to drive at the rate of eleven miles an hour through crowded towns without risk of many acci dents, and, in case of a person being so killed, it would be punishable as a culpable homicide.—r‘No " from Sir Robert Wilson.}—Had his Hon. F r i e nd forgot that, in this country a man must make his engagements so as not to endanger the lives or limbs of his fellow countrymen? He opposed going into the Committee, and moved, as an Amendment, that the Bill should be committed on this day six months. Sir ROBERT WILSON remarked, that now, those who travelled in a chaise and four went at the rate of ten miles an hour, and be thought it would be hard to say that, in doing this, they should be liable to punishment. He had seen the carriage constructed for the execution of this plan, and, from the nature of its construction, and the arrangemerits made for changing horses, he thought at least a mile might be gained in the hour without increasing the chances of accident. Mr. MONCK thought the peculiar construction of the carriage and the arrangements which, had just been alluded to, would not have the effect supposed, but would rather impede than accelerate. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the arguments against the measure did not seem to him to have any great weight. Accidents now some times occurred, and he did not think that their num ber_ would be increased by the accelerated rate at which it was proposed to travel. Mr. T. WILSON thought that the plan could not be adopted generally. Great inconveniences would arise from a double delivery of letters, and he must therefore concur with the Amendment. Mr, WARRE, as one of the Committee, could not approve of the plan, and thought the rate at which many vehicles were drove a 'emus nuisance. • SirW. DE CRESPIG NY supported the Amendment. Mr. BENETT (of Wiltshire) spoke in favour of the plan, and was of opinion the horses would not suffer from its adoption more than they did at present. Mr. HARBORD had heard nothing to alter the opinion which he had originally formed against the measure. Sir J. MARJORIBANKS hoped, if the Bill passed in the present Session, that it would be extended to Scotland. Sir F. OMMANEY was sure that great inconve nience would be experienced from a double delivery of letters in this town. He considered the plan objec tionable, and shpuld, therefore, vote for the Amend ment.—The House divided, when the numbers ware: For the Amendment - - 28 For the original Motion - - . 34 Majority for the Bill After some conversation between Mr. Witanz, the CHANCELLOR, Mr.BRIONT, Mr. MARJORIBANks, Mr. Baum (of Wilts), Mr.WaorrEaczy, and Mr. T.Wrx.- sox a. division ensued upon the question, that the Chairman do leave the Chair. The numbers were: Ayes • - • - - 33 Noes - - - - - - 30 Majority for leaving the Chair - —3 The Bill consequently passed through the Com mittee, and the Report was ordered to be received on Monday next. ILL TRRATMENT 01 ANIMALS' BILL. Mr. B. MARTIN moved the Order of the Day for ressiming the debate on this Bill. Sir J. MACKINTOSH presented a Petition from certain Inhabitants of the City of Westminster, in favour of the Bill for preventing cruelty to Horses and other Brute Animah.--Laid on the table. — Mr. G. BENNETT presented a similar Petition from Ux bridge.—Laid on the table. Sir R. WILSON presented a Petition from the Parish of Lambeth, in favour of the Bill for abolishing Cruelty to Ani mals.—Laid on the table. _ _ Sir W. DR CRESPIGNY presented a Petition from the In habitants of Camberwell, in favour of the 11l Treatment of And. male Bill, which was read and laid on the table. On that that the Bill be now read a third time, the Howe di • ed forthwith. The numbers were— Far the third reading - - Against it Majority for the Bill ,_2 4 The Bill was then read *third time, and passed. The other Orders of the Day were lisposed of, and the Muse adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'Clock. When it is considered that no person can have a Stank on the 10th Jure, even if their Tickets are drawn, but that they are tben certain of some of the Great Prises of £24,000, £16,000, and various £2,100, ice. which are then sure to be draivn, or that they may receive for every Ticket (not drawn) £l7 ; for a Half, AO. 4s. Quarter, £4.125. Meath, £2. 6s. And every Sixteenth may receive £l. 3e. 6d. advantages not likely to occur again, the present great demand is readily accounted for; and as every original Ticket is en sale, the num ber is so limited that an Intinediate application is requested, to r prevent disappointments. J. and J. Strawalgur, Contractors. •