Star. — London, England, 1803-12-15 00:00:00

I' PARLL4IIENTART PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, WEDNESDAY, DEC. t 4. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Coutiftl were heard at confiderahle length, in continuation, re lative to the Atpeal from - the. Court of Chain, ry—Kcighley v. the FaR India Company, viz. Mr. Cox, as fecoud Countel for the Ap pellant, and Mr. Nlan:,field as leading Cot,:iftl for the Re:Ps.n dents. 'flair Lordtbips pollponed the furth.r hearing of Elie cafe till Friday. Two Private Bills from the Commons were prefented by Cene• rah Be , tic and Sir T. Nletralfe, and feverally read a hilt time. The Earl of St:Fri:ire faid, that he anderitood a bill of confider eat importance was then before the utha r Hock of Pniliamtnt, but fn tar advanced in i:s progrefs a< almoft immediately e weed to be before their Lordflups the Bill he alluded to was one tur the amelioration of the Volunteer fyltem, and contained regulations which he thought likely to be produdliv, of much adv4ntatx. He, however, as a 11 , 11:itary roan would cairn t. . deliver his fend:nem: upon the (object, and hope d au opportunity would be afford ed him for fo doing on Friday. . . . . The LORD CIIANCLLLOR uhfirved, that as thz Fill .11:uded to by the Noble 1. al, was not then before the Houle. it was obvi oully irregular to f.:O any thing upon le (honk, he happy at the proper opportunity to hear the Noble Earl's fentiments upon the meafure, and he thought the probability WI% that, as the Bill in queftion was expeCted up ft am the other Node of ParlLmeot to-morrow, a regular opportunity would be afforded for its dtfeuf• Sun on Friday. The Bills before the Houfe were carried through their refpedtive Saga--thefe were for the molt part third readings, :.:td among the Bills which visa, miffed were the Irifh Halk as Col pos Sufpen- Bon Bill, &e.—And a Meifage was ordered to be fent to acquaint the Commons therewith. _ _ Adjourned till to-morrow, when a Comtniffion takes place fur ootiiii:4 the kopil A:fcat to act tAiii Bills. Meffages from the Lords announced thiir I.ordfhips tang to the Bank of Fnglanil Redricliun Bill; the Irifla Habei Corpus and Iklaitial Law Hills. and ftveral Privati. Mr. I Immouce brought up the Mutiny Bill, which was read a recond time, and ordered to be committed for Titurfl4y the ad of February. Mr. Coals' moved the Order of the Day for the Houk refolv ing itfelf in a Committee of Supply ; which was accordingly done, and the Hon. Cer.ticman then moved, that the Flimsies of the Linen Board In Ireland, prefented on Tuefday, be referred to the Slid Committee, and that a turn of 21,6c01. trial currency, be granted from the stb of January Igoe, to the sth of January ages, Stine the annual grant 'Jibe Report ordered to be received to morrow, and the Chairman afked leave to fit again. Mr. VAN SITT AIT relented an account of the Premiums ex pel/del as Bounties under an Adt of Parliament for bringing Fills to the London Market—Ordered to Be on the tali e. Lord Hatter PerrY moved, that the Committee to whom the Pctitioa of the Sierra Leone Comppity was rata:red, have kave:lJ Si, notwithftanding the adjoarnments.--Granted. Mr. Yoact Sated, from a return which he held in his hand up to the tiff of November, the number of man railed fur the Army of Reierve, which was as follows : — Total number railed in Erg bad and Wes, 26,602: of there bad died 7o; dcfcrtcd 777. — Total rails:din Scotland 5500 ; In Ireland upwards of foPo. Of the tatter place he was not In poffeffion of the ectail. The total number wanting would therefore be 30co. He then moved, that an AMOK of the General Return of the men raifcd for the Royal Army of Referve, fpecifying the Counties in which they were rail ed, and the Sick, Defeated, Rejetted, &c. be prefented. Mr. Yorke expreffixt his won, that when dick Returns were laid before the Hoak, whatever difference of opinion might prevail with refpodt to the niesfure, there would be an unanimous one as to the exertions of Government. TOLUNTAIR PXFMPTION ACT. Mr. YORKE moved the Order of the day for the 3d reading of the Bill to amend the Volunteer Ails. Mr. WINDHAM role. He began by complaining of the hafte with which he confidered Minifters were pulling this Bill through the Houle. The whole la. tory of the Bill filmed it ; for ‘A hat was the princi ple on which it was founded, but that of mending the defeats of a former Bill ? What was it, but to correa the imperfalions, and remove the ambiguities of former meafures ? Dr. Johnfon had told us, that there were two ways of cempotition ; one was, by confidering deeply, and forming a great naafs of thought, which was all properly arranged before it was put to paper ; the other was, by letting down the thoughts, jolt as they came, without Confidera lion or care. To follow Dr. Johnfen's idea, he would fay, there were alto two modes of Legiflation ; one when meafures were carefully confidered before they were brought forward ; and the other, when the heft ideas that happened to enter the heads of Mi. sifters were thrown together in a Bill, and were car ried into laws, which almoft immediately required frefh laws to explain and amend them. He recol. idled fome lines which faid, " Poets would forfeit half the fame they've got, " If it were known what they difcrertly Noe A Smiler kind of blotting he would very much recom mend to his Majefty's - Mit:Wert, whole only merit vitiated in the confeftion of their numerous errors, and in the tardy manner in which they correaed the blunders thq committed : but then they willed to hurry through the Houle the confeffion of their im. perfations. He could not, however, fee why the Houle Ihould not have the benefit of another day.— #3e had already Rated what he thought ferious oh )(Aims to the Bill. There was a great power vetted fornewhere. In lONIC Corps it was in the individual who was the Commanding Officer ; that was in the monarchial cla's of Corps. With others, it was in the Committees where the democratic form predo. minuted. Thefe powers, it might be Ilated, had not been abufed : very likely they had not, in any cafe, but they may he fn. It was riot prudent to calculate upon their eternal purity. The enormous price of fob/litotes had become a fubjeft of univerfal animals. meta. Fifty guineas are frequently given, and per. baps 4.0 guineas was the average rum. Now, in many cafes, this fum would be the ruin of a man who was drawn. We had to make up the deficiencies of the two bodies of Militia and Atmy of Referee, and like. wife the annual conl'umption of the Regular Army, out of the popu l ation left after dedriecling our 400,cm0 Volunteers. But the falltionable cry was, why object now to any part of the Volunteer lyllern, alter it has been completely decided upon, and univerfally adopt ed ? It this machine, called the Volunteer fyflem, is confirmed, it will ultimatety be found necelfary to greafe the wheels; they mutt have money. Their robferiptions might, in many cafes, loon fail them, and tl.,:y molt ci.m. upon the puulie, as was the cafe in the bloonifbut y Ahociatinn, (the St. George and St. The fs item, the farther they pulled, became urn re nbieEttor..A.!c— •• Who (Inert , and walks aftray, • Get• but the far:ter trt,r3 I i• way." I had been deemed abford to objce, to the regulation o clo . .hing all the Voluntezrs :n red. that ob j :tion was n••t abliiid, beca:ife by that regulation it was evident for what purpof.s they were :wended. They are all brought Erward n the fame tiainirg. The Vol:inlet. v come forward, anJ fry, " We come v.itt, zt:al, parr intitin, courage, c. rdiality, good a ill, tee. &c.;" but it is the :bot;1•.1 put them into A right way of beccrning I,•r:t grey I.tmed to have contrived to pot the Vo:untsers into the writ poiEble train; to LAIC don; every thing to their power to tnake then of as little utility as they could. With refpeal to the efTeas of the fyllem upon recruiting, it had been faid, that it had only diminiffi ed it by one third ; but will any man fay that the • Regiments fill ? When they recruit inch paltry num ' bers in the courfe of a maath, it was nothing to talk about proportions. In petty numbers proportions were not worth confideration. It was not worth de fcending down to fraflions of men. Recruiting was now lower than it ever was fince recruiting was call ed recruiting. If it be laid, that it has kept up fince the war commenced pretty even, why what would it not have been, had it not met fo many checks ? War was the time favourable to recruiting, and not peace; for in war there was a fpirit of animation and enthu tialm that led people forward, and which did not operate in time of peace. By altering the formation of the army by the neeefrary high bounties, by de arnying all competition, this [late of things was brought about. Men, in fad, would gn as foon into the regular army, nay former, if properly encourag ed, than into the Army of Referve This he had known in a variety of cafes to happen. We might have done infinitely better than to have adopted this plan of the Royal Army of Receive. But he hoped we fhould loon have a fair opportunity of reviewing the whole conflitution of the army. If ever thisfuh jea came again before the Houle, he had only to hope that Gentlemen would turn their thoughts to it, and give it a candid and minute attention. Mr. IitLEY ADDINGTON role in reply to Mr. Wind. ham. Ile raid, that as the Right Hon. Gentleman had teemed to with to have the lea word on the fub jea now before the Houle, las flould hope to be per mitted to exprefs for the firfi, and perhaps the laft time, his fentiments upon it. There were many points of the Right Hon. Gentleman's fpeech on which he willed to make a few olskrvationa. In the courfe of it, he had Rated, that the fuhfcriptions which had been railed to pay the expence of the for mation of the Corps tif Volunteers would loon be ex haufted, and then that they would be obliged to call on Government to give them affiaance for their fu ture maintenance. Nothing could be more futile than this obfervation. In the fira place, he con ceived that the Right Hon. Gentleman was com pletely misinformed in fuppofing that a fubfcription was railed at all for the formation of Corps of Vn. lunteers. He believed, that there were many in fiances to the contrary ; and he could affure the Houle, as one inflance, that towards the formation of a large Corps, which he had the honour and hap pinefs to command, there had been no fubfetiptinn at all. The men were aflually clothed out of the al lowance made by Government, with a very inconfi derable addition ; and he felt a pride in flitting that not the fmallea objettion had been made by one in dividual to clothing of that defcription. Where there had been fubfcriptions, he conceived that it was direded principally to this object, and he was there. fore at a lots to conceive how Government need ap prehend, even in the molt diflato perfpealive, that any call would be made on the public purfe, and af ford any affillance, efpecially as it was generally underflood that the clothing was to laft three years. —He then adverted to the affertion, that no lets bounty than col. per man had been given to Substi tutes for the Army of Referve. Gentlemen on the other tide of the Hnufe were fond of adverting to what merely palled in the metropolis. To that he could not (peak ; but he could Alert, from his own knowledge, that in the county in which he refided, the price of a Subftitute was from 20 to 25 guineas. In the fame way the Right Hon. Gentleman bad argued on the fubjet of Committees. The fclitary instance had been Rated on a former night of a Corps being governed by a Committee. 4b Irmo efifie owes' was hardly a fair way of judging. lie had feen many Corps of Volunteers, and had heard of more, but knew of no fuels regulation. The fyflem was a bad one ; nothing fhould induce him to hold any coinmiffion in fuch a Cot ps, or to have any thing to do with it. It was an unfair mode of arguing, to infer, that becaufe there was one, it mull be the ge neral defcription of Volunteer Corps. He had read fuel' arguments of late, but little espeaed to have heard them urged by Gentlemen of enlightened un deraandings. As to the injury done to the recruiting fervice, it had been completely anfwered by the flatement of the Secretary at War, and by other Gentlemen. Faits could not be clone away by the look and vague opinions of individuals. They were unanfwerable ; and he amitld not dwell on this ob jection. He meant nothing offenfive to the Right Hon. Gentleman in what he was going to add : it would not be fufpealed of him. He mutt once for all exprefs his grief and Alonifhment, that the Right Hon. Gentleman Should have adopted, and now per• fevere in a courfe of language, difparaging, difcoun tenancing, and difcredittng a defcription of men, on whole Cervices the fafety of the country not a little depended. The Right Hon. Gentleman, perhaps, delptfed popularity ; he certainly was not difpofed to court it. If he at all valued it, lie might be al lured that every corner of the kingdom echoed its reprobation of the language which he had held (ince the meeting of Parliament. People could not corn. prehend—pollerity would fearcely believe—that in a moment of danger to unparalleled, one individual could be found, who would gravely Arcot, that 400,000 armed Britons were not only ufelds, but even injurious to the intereas and defence of the country. Was the Right Hon. Gentleman fo grofsly ignotant of ancient and modern hittory, as not to be able to dikover, in almolt every page of it, in fiances of what had been Achieved by the valour of freemen, without the aid of military difcipline, cer tainly the hell ally to valour, when armod in defence of their liberties and independence ? Such examples would not he 1011, he was confident, on his country men. If real danger fhoula prclent itfelf, what might not be expelled from men animated with one (pion, tired with an unexampled unanimity to take arms in defence of a Monarch whom they loved, of a Conai tution which they revered, of an independence which Clay cheriflted, and for tla proteaion of every thing that could be valuable and precioas to them AS men and as Englifnmen ? Mr. Wiensram, in explanation, Alcoved, that he had never laid that 4.0i0,000 men in arms would be of nn ufc. Mr. Alderman Peter :Irf,:rided the cubfcriptcr;:. to the Curpt, in the metrcpt,lis, and was confid:l.l that yca.-: would not end their refources. The Vo;tinteLrs of London had nr•t coma fill ward ms.rety to make a plaything t t ttir 011 , 1 rcd COAS ; they did not confine 'hemlines to twenty or thi;ty, or even fifty days, but they were conflant in their attendance on their military duties, and deiirous of leatning all the military mancruvres of the regular army. They were not regulated by any Committees for military purports ; thofe Committees relating only to other arrangements. They would be very glad to have Adjutants from the regular forces, but they did not fee the neceffity for Field Officers. Se veral Corps had even found the means of haying a regular Adjutant, and paid him as well as he was paid in the army. The lubftitute-money in the City was, on an average, from zz to 26 guineas, except, perhaps, when perfons had been drawn, and found their own fuhflitutes at a higher rate. The Volun. leers, he was perfeely fenfible, would be found fully qualified to undertake whatever was affigned them, and were refolved to do honour to themfelves, and jullice to their country. Colonel CRAWFORD vindicated his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Windham) from many mifconceptions of his opinions in that Houk, and mifreprefentations out of doors. He had not fpoken again't the Volun teers as individuals, but he had fpoken againfk the fyllern that Government had adopted for the defence of the country, and which he thought was a worfe way of defending it than another mode which he had recommended. That Right Hon. Gentleman cer tainly never meant to fay, that .too,ooo Britons in arms were worth nothing, but he had confidered that encouraging the recruiting fur the regulars would have been a better way of defending the country. As to the introduttion of Field Officers, he thought they might be well ("pared from the regulars, as it was well known that there was, at leaft, twice the number of commiftioned Officers in a battalion in the Eng lifh fervice, than what are employed in any other. He alio perceived this wide diftindion between our regu lars and Volunteers. Our regulars were tried troops, and we could fruit one of their battalions with con fidence againft a French battalion; but with what anxiety would we fee a Volunteer battalion going to engage a battalion of French ? It had been a Edition to 'peak of the French armies as conapofed of mifera, hie confcripts, not animated by that fpirit and ardour winch diftinguifhes our Volunteers. Now he could nr,t avoid Paying, that the French armies were cer tainly equal to any others in Europe; and although cur foldiers, he believed, to be equal to them, he would not flatter the British army fo much as to fay they were superior. The French were a military people, and their foldiers were alfo full of enthufiafm. .Sir Wst. You NC repeated the obfervations he had made on a preceding night, with refped to the differ ence between the Volunteers of the laft war, who en tered merely from motives of patriotifm, and the great body of the Volunteers of the prefent day, who entered finer the time that the Levy en Matte At had put them in requifitinn. This was another great evil in the Volunteer fyftem : it not only ex empted a great number of men from fervice in the As my of Referve and Militia, hut the particular clafs n km were Co exempted from retying, was ufually the unmarried men, from eighteen to thirty, and the ballott fell principally on the married men, or thofe above that age He concluded by paling very high encomiums on the charader and talents of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Windham.) Mr. CALCRAFT believed, that very high bounties had not been given in the City of London, as it was conceived that would be letting a bad example ; but the confequence of their not having done fo was, that there was a great deficiency in the complement which the City of London ought to furnith—there are 'fru ally more recruits iR proportion to he got at the be ginning of a war than in thi continuance of it, as the commencement of a war generally castles a floppage in the manufactories, an 4 thole who are difcharged go to enlift at the nearell place where they can get any bounty; but in the cooirre of a war, men bidding againft each other as at an andion, railed the bounty very confiderably. Mr. Secretary YORKE laid, he knew nothing of any advice lathy , given to the City of London with re • fped to the bounties they fhould give : he recolleded, however, that there were Come refolutions of the Drapers' Company, to the effed slated by the Hon. Gentleman. Mr. GILES (aid, that he had read the Aft of De fence, and found that there was a difference between Volunteers, who were accepted, and thole who came forward for voluntary fervice. In the county of Hert ford, the number accepted was about 2000, and there were exempted from the Militia and Army of Re. fcrve. But there were 6200 who had voluntarily come forward, without being entitled to there exemptions. It could not, therefore, be laid, that they were afluat ed by any other than patriotic motives. Dr. LAWRENCS entered into a long and laborious apology and panegyric of his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Windham). That Right Honourable Gentleman, and thole who afted with him, were not prompted in their Parliamentary exertions by any vain purfuit of popularity, but were fwayed by a Ready and confcientious regard to what a fenfe of duty impofed upon them, and which the good of the community evidently appeared to require, Im. potent attempts had, however, been made in many parts of the kingdom to ditlort and difcredit the opinions which his Right Hon. Friend had delivered ; but a great majority of the fenfible and enlightened part of the country, where his Right Honourable Friend was known, not only approved his concluft, but were unanimous in adopting the fentiments which he had let down. The people furely were much more mifchievoufly milled by thofe who in times of fuch danger and emergency, taught them to prefer tem porary to permanent advantages. Such was the con duit of thofe who accufed his Right Honourable Friend and himfelf of oppofing the genre of the coon. try. But his Right Honourable Friend never had objelled to the whole of the Volunteer fyliem ; but limply contended, that the propoled plan of exemp tions would neceflarily counteraft the effeEt which might have been expefted from Winging hue aftion the flower of the armed population of the country. — That could be done only by adopting fume known general plan of regulations, and by putting the Vo. lunteers on a better footing without any exemptions. Many were the folitaty intlances which he might ad duce in proof of his affertions ; but a reference to them, in which tome Gentlemen were fond of in. Llulfting, would tend to an unneceffary prolanctation ra the debate, to which he was a verfe. (A cry cf Htar! Lear! and a laugh). The Learned Member concluded with acculinE Milt. of ,Ming away' from 'licit , duties, Ihd declaring that he would always feel preod of having ;Vied with his Right Hon. Friend, in r.,,. ' pofition to their fytfem, whatever animadvei riots might be made upon him in that Houle, or whate.. r calumnies might be propagated ref - inning him out of door s, becaufe he was equally latisfied of the pu. rity of his Right Hon. Friend's motives and the pro. found wifdom of his political conc:ptions. The CHANC ELLOR of the EXCH EQE Ell began by Cur. ing that the Learned Member had concluded with . * very heavy charge, indeed, upon his Majefty's Mini_ hers, namely, that they had deferted their duties and had given encouragement to a fpirit of calumny ; but to whom the charge ofdealing in groandlefsllander and detraClion molt properly applied, he would leave it to the Honk and the public to judge. Of the duty of a Member of Parliament he was fully aware ; and no man rerpefted that duty more than he did. He knew that, confillently with that duty, every Member of that Houle was bound to examine and entitled to (late fully his opinion upon every public meafure. He ()mold be Corry to fee that difpofition damped by any fear of animadverfion, or that the exercife of fuck an important right Ihould become the fubjeel of calum ny. He admitted fully that a flatelman fhould prefer the interefts of the people to every other confidera. Lion, and that unpopularity fhould not refirain hint from purfuing the courfe of meafures which his judg. ment prefcribed. For popularity, properly under. flood, he profeffed the hig,heft refpeet, and fhould always feel a proper folicitude; but that Minifters had ever betrayed any idle, vain with for popularity in the fy Item they had idled upon, as had been infinua. ted, he mob pointedly denied. To what part of their conduff could the charge of endeavouring to court the people, be applied ? Was it to be detefled in their financial arrangements ? Was it in the quan tity of taxes they had impofed on the country ? It would be recollaled on this point that immediately after the conclufion of the lab peace, an addition was made to the public taxes which was equarto half the amount of the whole intereft on the national debt previous to the war which that peace terminated, and at the commencement of the prefent war, a further addition was made of twelve millions. From this it appeared that not lets than :7 millions were added to the taxation of the country within the (hart (pace of fourteen months. That is, not lets than (even mil lions more than the whole inter of of the national dein previous to the commencement of the lab war. The financial proceedings therefore of Miniilers could not be laid to manifelt any very prong difpofition to conciliate popular favour; and could that difpofition be feen in their condua with refpea to the military and naval departments? bid their keeping up so,ooo feamen during peace, together with a large military ellablifhment, imply an extraordinary define for pa. pularity ? In a word, did not every meafure of Mi. nifters carry with it the determination to provide for the honour, the interefts, and the fafety of the coun try ? He would put it tothecandour and common fenfe of any man, whether in their proceedingsthey were in the leaf} degree influenced by any bare, n nmanl y, difho nourable with tocourtpopularity,andwhetherthey had in any inftancefhewn the (till more difhonourable will to dettael from or calumniate anymember for the per formance of his duty ? For himfelf and his colleagues he could fay, they dcfpifed a praftice fo illiberal and In vile, and he was equally certain that his Right Honourable relation (Mr. H. Addington), to whore words Tome allufion had been made, would contemn any thing like it. The words alluded to, which were merely, that the fentiment which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) no doubt, thought it hi* duty to deliver in that Haute, made a very unfavour able impreffion abroad ; and that his o'bfervations upon the Volunteers were particularly ill received. No doubt, however, the Right Honourable Gentle:. man felt his condo& jullified in his own mind, but yet it was very natural to ruppore, that the difpofition he had upon all occafirma Inewn to depreciate the Volunteers, would be confidered a very ungracious return to them for their patriotic zeal, and for the diligent application of their rime to' acquire a know. ledge of the means necedary to defend their country. That his Majelly's Knitters atteMpted by any !means to traduce the charaaer of the Right Honourable Gentleman, was an unfounded accusation ; but that they complained of his condor, was an undoubted fag. They complained of the Right Honourable Gentleman, and the Honourable Gentleman who afted with him, becaufe they condemned indifbrinsi. stately every meafure that they had taken fince their accellion to his Majefty's confidence. They com. plained of the Right Honourable Gentleman, becaufi he reprobated their arrangements relpeaing the mi: litia, though that body was conflitnted precifely as it exiled at the time that Right Hon. Gentleman was in office. They complained of him, becaufe' he called forth all his efforts to decry the fyhem of the Voluft seers, although it was no deviation whatever from . that which prevailed, when the Right HonourakJe Gentleman was in office. But now it appears that the Right Hon. Gentleman would prefer an armed peafantry ; in Taft, it was, becaufe he arraigned every thing they propofed, that they complained. The Right Honourable Gentleman on the cubic& of the Volunteers, had always argued as if Minifteri looked to that body as every thing, which they. regarded only as an important ingredient in the public force: They felt that at was a principle never to be loft fight of, that our fecority materially depended on the di 4erf.6ed conßration of our national army, and that io a country rowed as ours is, it would be impoffible to array in a regular army, any very confiderable portion of our population; becatife it would be incon fillent with their induflry and their habits, and inju rious to the vital interefts of the nation. . to the Volunteers, we had, it was to be a regular army and a militia, much great existed at any periodOnjwhich the Right 1 man was in office, and yet, he was heard to allege the inadequate (Lilt of prepc defence of the country. A mong the GI of attack upon Knitters reforted to by Hon. Gentleman and his advocates, it was that they uniformly took the deduaionr own reafoning as fath, and generally ref as filch. They concluded that at the peal lar force of the country would be u tkerefore ; that it was reduced; but the he hid made enquiry to afcertain it, wh ,, le of the infantry only tgoo men I charged, or whcin sOOO were from the ins under fixed and orherivife mid for . datelined of di. Wen Hon. 4011km:a . In addition e remembered, rater than ever it Hon.Gentle- rd perpetually nation for the ingular modes by the Right was obfervable ons from their relied nn them iraCe the repw r educed. • and. faEl srta and that from the had been dif• guards t as be. fervice. - , The in way there. Nib