Star. — London, England, 1810-05-10 00:00:00

• wed or committed them, as they thought the nature 'of the offence deierved ;. And if any attempt had been made to withstind the pro:eedings - of the House, he )tad no &mn hut the return would have been I There weir few person, in the House now living %Ain could speak by expetience as to the mode of proceed- I in,;at that time, but the House otegbt .to slow itself con &lent of its privileges : it should Inive nodoubr of them ; and should give notice of this to the whole world. lie would therefore advise, that those per s.)ns ho hadput their names as indorsements of having . sued out these processes, lould be called to the h tr, and. er. mined accordingly. When he was nominated one of the Committee on a former night, he wasnotin the. House, or he should, have directly ~....ected and refused ; be received notice, however, /'• the same night, that he was nominated, and on mature consideration he found that, with the opi ni o n heentettained-of that Committee, be could not con sistently sit in it. ,He wrote, therefore, early the next .morning to a Learned Friend of his who was on it, to desire that if the Committee should appear to be wait.; ing for any of its Members, to inform them not to wait for him, for. that be was determined not to at tend it. He thought' it necessary to assign those reasons for his refusal ; and now he would only add, that if the House meant to act up to the doctrine they had laid down, the course he ,woul.l recommend would be that he had recommended, of bringing that person to the Bar of the HOW!e who had indorsed his name to this process, and know whether he avow- ed it. Mr. WINDHAM said his Honourable Friend who had just sat down had so exactly and completely ex pressed his sentiments on the subject, that he should have occasion to trouble the House with but very few words indeed. He disliked a Committee, because he thought it implied a doubt; but he acquiesced in it, because many Gentlemen had not made up their minds, and it would !give. them an opportunity of doing so. He thought the House should take the course recommended by his Honourable Friend, be cause it was the old beaten track which bad been so honourably and safely trodden by our ancestors : stare, sattervare antipai ; and as such, he would ad vise it to be pursued. Sir .T. ANSTRUTHER said, he did not attend the Committee, for the same reasons given by his Honourable and Learned Friend ; and not from any doubt of the privileges of the House warranting it in proceeding as it had ddlte. In his opinion, there was no course but one of following up their pri vileges, and no course but one in which they could assert them. The ATT6RNEY,GENERAL said, he was clearly of opinion. that. the privileges of the House could not be judged of by any Court of Law, but must be entirely con fi ned to themselves ; and though collateral matters may have brought some things be fore the Courts for their decision, they haie uniformly declared they were not competent to decide on the privileges of Parliament. He was sorry, however, that- his Honourable and Learned Friends opposite had objected to attend the Committee. He did not wish the assistance of those 'Honourable and Learned Gentlemen to discuss any trifling points in which there might be a difference of opinion between him and them, but to consult on the best means of sup porting those privileges as to which they held the same opinion, and of agreeing to the best means of enforcing an obedience to them ; and he now sincerely regretted the want of that assistance. The CHANCELLOR of 'the EXCHEQUER expressed himself jp nearly the same term He g ave the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen full credit for the line they had taken, because he had no doubt they thought it right. He acquitted them of any de sign to embarrass the Committee ; but he thought ever y wolf they bad now spoken as to that point made agitinst themselves. If they had attended the Committee, -they might have made their statements as they had now. done to the House, and the Com , mittee would have reported these as well as the other opinions that :night be delivered. He thought a pre-1 vions discussion in a Committee would have been de. l sirable, as they might thereby have been enabled to make their report more satisfactory to the House. They were all most anxiously desirous of finding out the right course to be pursued, and to give the most general satisfaction ; and, terefore he could not but regret the absence of the Honourable and Learned Gentlemen, who wel• so well able to have assisted the Committee. Sir A. PIGOTT said, this was the first instance in which a process had been served on a Member of Parliament, in which the Attorney, whose name was on the back, was not called to the bar. After a few words from Mr. LEYCESTER and Mr. WYNNE, the motion was carried. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the u*mes of the Lord Advocate of Scot: land, Mr. Rose, and Mr. Foster, should be added to the Committee for taking into consideration the i notices *Tied by Sir F. Burdett.—Agreed to. sitatn OP iikuNswicw. Mr. TiEItNEY gave notice that he should, ori Monday, move that an Address should be presented to his Majesty', to appropriate from the Droits of the Admiralty a suns ;equal to the proposed Annuity to the Duke of Brunswick. UVEMY PETITION. Alderman COMBE moved for the resumption of' the debate on the reception of the Petition.of the Li very of London. . Mr. WALLACE was of opinion that every indi vidual ought to have a right of petitioaing, and that the. House was bound to receive their petitions, -pro vided they were expressed in respectful language.— They bad a right to see; however, that they came from the people, and did not proceed fronsfactious demagogues. Of the latter descxiptioo. be had no hesitation to say the. present petition. was. (Hear, hear.) It could -be intended for no .other poss ibl e .purpose than to deliberatilyinsult the House. There of doors whose os.iject it Was so vilifY • Constitution. : (iirear, cOtirreace between olectionabie oricswhich bosne formally respect., the present Pal the otbens but the same posisesdhil esse-aotorette' ..listrodneed into it House tik allow It is • - INN it to rte On tin tables ,Angt AMODUMMIrI _ t lig ——— s . same Matting came to on the same day envie petition of two illniwn up• e s - Zinn proof of this . assertion.resolutio_stis of a large mob. He wished to be uno. would ventere ,to say, these who in apPRPM:II steinbs not objecting to this petition en the ground *ere andecious enough to sign, ought tst he,it. olitinserely being signed by 12 Liverymen. - No, 110 would be in Newgate In Slo hours. Hear, hart Objected to it because he thought -k was intended toi He thought such ought now to be the fate oft ,- convey a studied insult on the House ; and he was' son who suggested thous-(Hear, Bear.)—Bothl the more convinced of this from•heating.the resoini• and the Petition contained a violent insult on the I tions, which passed at the same meeting. Coupling. House. They equally attacked the iw and • (we, !those Resolutions with the petition, it was totally im. and thought the . Honourable Gentlemen. opposile I possible to doubt its intention—na man could lay hit! .were fully.as much to blame as those on•his side.-p'• 1 hand upon his heart and say he did so. He hoped Even an. H(M-, Gentleman who s4oerallY advocatel i the House would have the spirit unanitriodily to reject the cause of similar petitions, was. looked upon blr it. He was ready to lay the doors open to the repecte ' them as nothing else than a decoy dad. These pat. i ful petitions- of the -people—he was ready even cal tions maintaine d, that they must sacrifice to the white overlook their childish follies, and forget any mo.i I of the day, even their till now undisputed right or mentary nonsense into which they might be betrayed commitment for libel. He mistook much; irldeed, ' —but he would never be persuaded to. countenance if he had not read of a meeting .at which the Hon ! their insults. As a proof of the folly of the petition,. Gentleman was present, at which he endeavoured is he would merely quote the passage in which it was defend even a limited privilege of that • House, an , : asserted that the Waicheren Expedition was tuisit.r. was obliged to appease the anger of the company,'br taken " without object and without hope." Now _proposing the hei4th of that distinguished orator and every person knew that it had an " object ," and he worthy patriot, Mr. Waithman 1 (4 his T A, and was sure no man in the country but therished an hope hear, hear.) He was not content now to receive this of its success. It was unnecessary to quote more. Be- Petition : he had voted for receiving other Petitions, Erring as he did, that this petition only spoke the lest the House should appear unnecessarily captious; sense of a few profligate desperadoes, who should but he thought it they received this Petition, they have long since become the objects of criminal jus would only become the accomplices of their own tie- tice, he would, without hesitation, vote for its rtjec 'gradation.7—(lfear, hear.)—He had heard that a tion.---(Heu-, hear.) • conflict existed between the House and the country. Sir T. TU RTON explained. He was not apprehensive as to the issue of such con- j Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY hoped, whatever de flict ; for he was sure the people would see that the • vision the House might come to, it would at least privileges of-the House were their privileges, and, no calmly deliberate—a mode of deliberation to which matter by whom they were led, would he convinced . he was sorry to say the speech of the Honourable that the interests of both were reciprocal. i Gentleman who spoke last was not very likely to Sir THOXAS TUR.TON thought, if the House , lead. With respect to the subject of petitioning, he rejected the present Petition, they would indeed shrew "declared his opinion that the doors of that House themselves unnecessarily captious. He was of opi- ought to be thrown as widely open as possible to nion, that the doors of that House ought always to every complaint orrepresentation of the people ; ncr be open to the petitions oldie people, no matter how ; ought the House to be very difficult to please in par strong Might be their grounds of petitioning. He ticular expressions upon such occasions. It was, in did not however mean to say, that their. language, if his opinion, very desirable that the people should disrespectful, ought to be countenanced; he did not have recourse to the representatives of the people so mean to say, if, foe instance, a Petition was presented, I often as they felt it necessary. He was not aware " To persons assembled in St. Stephen's Chapel," or, ! what particular objection was cow made to this yeti i• in a room in St. Stephen's Chapel," that suels a Peti- I tion. It had been said generally, that it went to lo tion ought not to be rejected and its authors con , ; suit the House. Let, however, the particular pas signed to condign punishment. The House had it t sages be pointed out; which were considered as objec from high authority, however, that they had cerried : tionable, and a due tlistinction nude between sub their privileges too far. It had been said ley some . stance and expression. l!'e did not, he coalessed, ex they were tyrannical. He had no hesitation in saying I actly understand the petition—(htae, /rear.) The they had been severe beyond measure. One man `Gentlemen opposite need not pride themselves on now lay at their order in prison for no other crime 1 taking advantage if this expressicw. lie had read except a charge of ektinaese Was this just ? was this i the petition nitre titan once, but until the particu decorous ? was it wonderful that the coun t r y should ,jarly offensive pa;sages were pointed out, he could present petitions against such conduct ? Some resolu- ' I not deliver an opinion upon them. By what crite tions had been alluded to by an Honourable Gentle- rion were they to judge as to the propriety of expres tleman opposite ; he did not hesitate to say, that if ; sions, ualess those expressions were pointed out fur the resolutions and the petition wire the same, he . their inspection. The only criterion, indeed, by would reject the petition ; but the only authority of ' which petitions seemed to be now judged was the ap. the' Honourable Gentleman for the resolutions, was preb aion or dislike of the Chancellor of the Exche that of a newspaper, and on such a ground he could , quer : he said, " I approve of this petition," and it not think himself warranted in actieg. The adoption , was received ; or, " I dislike that petition," and it of the strong resolutions ought to be even a stronger ' was rejected. As to the resolutions which had been reason with the House for the reception of the Yeti- i alluded to, he wow d ask, were they to reject the peti tion, because it was plain they did not mean to in- i tion becaase the resolutions were violent ; or was not suit the House by any intemperate Addr e ss, and had ; thecomparativemildness oldie petition a reasourather therefore thrown whatever might be considered ob- i for its reception ? (Hear, hear.) Nothing could c in his Talioneble into the Resolutions. If the House ro. : mind, be Mare dango.ous or novel, then this conti jected this Petition, it would be plainly saying to the i ivied rejection of petitions which had been presented. 1 people, 48 we will receive no more Petitioms" It was ,He was particularly desirous now to reprobate a dis. very natural, when the people were irritated and dis- I tinctiun which ltad Nato most improperly drawn be gusted as they now were, that they should vent such I tween the iwople and ivliat an Honourable Member feelings in Petitions. This might be rejected; but ' chose to designate " the populace." Hr had also to the consequence would le, that they should have Pe- deprecate the vs:rtion of that Honour:Ole Member, titions after Petitions, in more courtly lain c age, per- tli:tt :my decent man could not :attend tie lor haps, but certainly the same in substance. l'he House meeting of the Livery, because it w.ts inti,sted by as. ought to have is: privileges, and so ought the people sassins and pickpockets. Such expressions were in to have theirs. A more precious privilege they did the highest degree dangerous, and ought not to he not possess than the right of petitioning. used, nor could they be justified. It could not bc ' Mr. JACOB believed firmly that the people, said that any meeting was of this description because though not the pope/are, approved of the conduct of it V. as clamorous. There was clamour to a certain the House of Commons—( Hear, hear.) They only degree in every mectiny, and i ften in that House it disapproved it who wished to set the populace above sell. He thought it was much the wisest plait not the people. With respect to Petitions, nothing was to throw an obstacle in the way of aadresses to that• more easy than to obtain them : they could be ob. Ibatise, and could not help thinking that all the pc tamed by any collection of pick-pockets front Fleet- titions originated in the conduct of that House its e lf. market, or patriots from Saffron-hill ;by any cry of Mr. W. 'WYNNE did not conceive that the Riau delusion among the multitude, no matter whether 1 lutions which passed at the meeting subsequently to of Burdett, or of" No Popery." (Hear.) it bad been I the adoption of the petition, could now form any doubted by some whether the present Petition was car- ground for the rejection of the petition. .11 the peta ried by a majority of Liverymen. One Gentleman had uon was considered sufficiently respectful by the said there were 2tXO present, and another had said that House, it ought to be. received, independently of there were 3000 ; but it must be remembered, that the every other consideration. He had, however, no he passage to the King's Bench was through the Hall sitation in declaring, that he did not think this peti of the Livery, and that any man, no m a tter whether tion sufficiently respectful, and should therefore vote he belongedto theLiveryor not, might gain admission. far its rejection. On the principle of the advocates The most respectable and decent part of the Livery for the reception of this petition, the advocates of re were, indeed, not at that Meeting, nor was it to be ex- liarm might come forward to that Ilona: w kit p pc. pected that they should. What man of liberal habits tition, commencing, .6 , We hwzib/y Jo not conceive or refined mind, would willingly expose himself to you to be the legal representatives of the peorl.f, and. the attacks of an assassin or a pickpocket ?—( !bar, therefore we dispute .and deny Your right to tax us." hear, hear.) Such men had naturally enough absent- Such might he the humble conception of those Gen ed themselves; but they had adopted a proper mode . ;lernen ; and yet, surely the House would i.o:. be jus .of stating their sentiments. They had entered into lifted in accpcieseing in the reception of any each de e spirited protest against the essolutions ; and he had claration. It was tar front his intention now to go ' now to inform the House that 1100 Liverymen had at length into the question of the privileges of Par signed that protest.—( Hear, hear.) They had de- liament ; all he should say was, they had received Glared their intention of supporting the established those privileges pure from their ancestors, and it sees Constitution ; of standing by the King, Lords, and their duty to maintain them now, and band them Cammoni—ef upholding the legal Representatives of down unimpaired to their posterity. the people,. and reposing full confidence in the vir- Sir JOHN NEWPORT was of; opinion that it I Cues of their Sovereign and the integrity of that House I was much better to receive any petition from the and the purity of the Judges of the land.—(Harr,! people, than to allow any sentiment which they might Hear.)—These were men of sense and moderation, I have to fester in their minds. It w a s th e p r i v il tte o f determined to contend for the laws , and resist the in- the country to speak their opinions, and to state their fluence of all party whatsoever. For himself, he 1 eomplaints to That House. The Gentlemen eh° I was not the ally of any party.—(4 laqh from the i now complained so 'ouch) , of a ferment in the people Opposition.)—He repeated the assertion.; he appealed : had no one but theme' /es to blame for it. They to every unprejudiced man in that House for its ye. ' had set the exempt!, and by the bigotted and delu racity ; he had opposed delinquency in every shape 1 • sive cry of " No Popery !" first inflamed the public ' he had declared that the son of the King, and the mind. It was not e hosvever, the first time that men ; brother of Mr. Pitt, were both criminals, and he created engines by whi c h . th e y t h emse l ves h a d a f ter . I now declared .he thought Sir • Francis Burdett ten . wards fallen. He feared much, that the day in which thousand times a. eater criminal than ether.—(Lard that House first establishell the principle of rejecting cries of Astir.)-1-U disclaimed alike popular clamour the petitions of the people would prove a fatal day. and Court patroneze, but boldly contended for . the : Mr. PEELE could not agree with the Honourable erivilegesfirthat • House—for the privihrs of. the Baronet who had just sat down, in the conclusion he eo fie was s ur prised that no pe tit io n s except had drawn from the a rguments he hadassed. If the' '. tu g gi ng; ga d the eseembir near Saffron House were to receive such a p et i t i on as that under pram** if the spirit, winds was repres amederation, the? o u gh t to con f ess th e i r o bli gat i on o b e i ll ipi ei l uatey, really existed. 'lf he of forbearance, and d ec l are t h e i r read i ness to rece i ve . brouglitto.belilree in the generelliffusion any petition which the most violent declaimer could spirit, sadism a general presentment of peti. produce. •He should protest, therefore, against the •goosequesee 01 it,' he laightio induced to "endowing of the Hon: Baronet. It had. been said " 7. .. m•••• •••••R OM • • . age nfrtidoise pre s e nte d to contend that it rz.qtlired fastit*, no very sge....imish dispositi on , to di,„ 1 2 1- that ate petition was in insult upon th.o tt ouse : e ,, charged it wish a violation of justice. 'Th e ?• -n " 1 migh t excuse, and he was ready to admit that it neigh -wise to forgive, a.past injury ; but !!!4! -4 4otild never influence hichwa t ; h c e ib in vi t oi o u rec ly ei in v t e en a de. Pe sl ti t t o i" in ' si th ilt e that lang r frus 4- : iiin Hon. Member had stated, that as the averniegh petitioning the Crown were closed, t h at H ouse , the more bound to receive the petitions of th e But what, he would elk, did they ac l acon t osui vr ettlad a b s te tiine isi t i ug l s y se:h: siddpei:threngeuatdiotd., be ec t ioh h ires a stvul t eitp p t e ; ku.ncteg t et i edd t t i no c a i e n thsgb s atyaht t tie n t,:iieHL l .o se Nmou,s,e ; arr ived propose to req .ll ,, e • ; of . It r h:d: se w as , i t this he should answer, that however the House mii ° be constituted, it was st il l the House of C or tno-ns! it was still the third branch of the Legislatur e ; was still the. Representative Assembly of th e ' Upon this point he might appeal to tho se wh o thou o lt that it should be formed after a more perfect rno;iw not to suffer this body, though its dec isions h a d b ye ! asserted tobecontrary to justiceand common seme, Te • to let such a body receive any pollution whi c h nupl : hereafter prevent its stream from flowin g p all a perfect. He could not refuse to the arguments tiretd on the oßposite side the weight that belonged t. , but still he could not be, induced to receive the pen. tion. The whole frame of that paper sheved tLat its prayer was not founded on the injustice of t h e secs tence, or the adequacy of the punishment, but te the assumption of a legal question, which ea. no w waiting a decision. Upoit all there groundshe aheuld vote for the rejection of the petiticn. Mr. W. ELLIOT, though he differed with regret from several of his friend), for whose opinion h e en . tertained a most unfeigned respect, was yet boob.' to vote according to his conscientious judgment upon this question. Ile woi , :d be the last man to dispute the right of the was to every facility of access wi t h p e . pion. w It as his °pillion, that the avenues ce . 01[„. ninnication between that House and '.he pepla ought to be extenikd rather than contracted. Much as Le approved of the pritic:ple of .slowing the constituent; to convey their sentiments by pe.itten to their tepre. sentatives, he still thought that right liable to wanton and licentious abuse. He knew ad' nothing by which the sacredness of that right would be more profaned, than by suffering; tt, h az made the vehicle of abus e nod attacks ueon the privileges of tl,e tou.: vi Com. moos , in se:tich every member of the condettuitr, high and low, It id :t I . ...rnianent common intered. I These privileges were given (tit- the purpose of main. taining the rightr, liberties, and happiness of tie: people undet the esmstitutien they enjoyed. lie did not object to the prayer of the petition. To judge of the propriety of receiving it, they should go to the context, and consid:r the whole in one view, together with the circumstances of_ its proditction, and of the times in which we Lye. If this was the first time of presenting a petition against real or imaginary grievances, though such petition might contain intern. relate expressions arising from the feelings of thr 'sent, lie should not be disposed to reject it. It was the character of grace and indulgenee, on such I t-Astons, that that House was to uphold its dignity. But Gentlemen must recollect that this was the third insult hiletesession offoted. to the House ; he beegrd pardon, the first had been laid upon the table ; but it was the second affront of the same description ;w: U suit that House. He could not agree with Ls Honourable Friend (Mr. Whitbread) in his trine, that petitions directly offensive only were tote rejected, but that petitions containing only opinicti shouLl be received. It a man was in private life es say to another, that he was a coward, a swindler, et a murderer, it would be natural ter him to resent but should his es !lament he disarmed by the of tier's - telling him that such sees his opinion ?.--( Hear, Naar.) —I ie could we no distinction between the case , . A l .l he would ask of Gentlemen was, to read the tiiion through, and then to say whether it was not an insult, and whether the prayer Was wit a secondary qbject ? It this were so, one could scarcely consider the Petition, estacially when bearing in mind the re., rills in the newspapers of the proceedings of-the dd. kveitt Meetings, but as a proof of that perrtual effort, that systematic deliberate intention to overture the privileges of the House of Commons. What be. ne6t then could result from receiving such a petition! On the contrary, ;:n injure would thereby be dote to . the right to petition. There was no magnauitnitya .he case ; and if they supposed it, they would deceive thmselves, but they would not delude others. lie diffNed ti-inn the whole of the speech of his Honour able Friend (Mr. Whitbread) which be considered as the echo of the petition.— (Ne, rao! from Mr. Whitbread.) He was glad his Lon. Friend did net go that length. He agreed iit . one or two instances with the complaints in the petition, especially as to the Wakheren dec:sion and he feared they were that suffering- in-consequence-4i that vote. The maiorty, he would admit, might be wrong on that occasion, and the minority right ; but, as Gentlemen might conscientiously differ on sttch subject!, that WAS no criterion to judge by of the integrity of the House. ' The average must be taken ; and if the minority was to be considered necessarily wrong, he must have been I almost always wrong; because Tie had been almost always in a minority. He agreed with the Ha. Member for Yorkshire as to the dignity of the Corps ; ration of London, but the dignity of the quarter Iwhence it proceeded was an aggravation of an insult. As he thought the most prudent way for the House to act would be to reject the petition, he should vote against it. . • 1 Mr. WHITBREAD, in order to set his Her. be II" Friend right, stated, that he had not given any ?it I nion upon the whole of the petition, to which by no means pledged himself, because there were cce Witt expressions in it of which he did rutt approve. Mr. WARDLE, as a Member of the Livery . , London,- as well as a Member of that House, f ern himself Wand to make some observations upon ibis question. As a Member of the Livery, he dared 0 _ lay that the whole of that Body telt as indifferent 0 , lie did to the reflation, thrown out in the course.et n ti o lis ura de b b le at G e on dulged so much in such reflections. That finna n , e an in d lem pa: s t a ic o u n la u r i l e y t ot o t t le h r e :pdien,ilhoot ahaaditi able Gentleman had thought proper to describe do Canunon Hall as a tumultuous turbulent swab* paw UPI But he w .✓ was a party out of doors whose o!)ject that House, and to degrade the Cone • hear, —There was no essential Mit this tition .and 'many other oldeettiona had of late psesooted. Some fol • ful tams were indeed introduced into titian, which were not to be found in still they hind every visible stark of till This was to the ethers h qualis.decet —and the words of respect .14tri - were merell►-istitended to induce the I