Star. — London, England, 1822-06-25 00:00:00

. • . . - ' • •.. . . . . . pal colonies, from which it ap rlnca • with " W the Slave Trade; for in a alker it was op; r° l2 : of the p. • • pose t,it was carried by a majority of ten to bite . ; but Pear that seven-eighths of the whole appointments only after the voice of the People had. con that had. been fill e d op b y nat i ve servants, were ap demned it. pointed by the thirty years before. It was necessary to bring the in'somealiere were not mor e t han people more in contact and unison with their 'Repre- ' Coloni al Governments—(Henr, hear). . three or four, and sentatives, in order to avoid those evils which were in none more than seven or eight offices, under the destroying the balance of the Constitution He there- appointment of the Crown at all—(Hear, hear, hear). f,re should move- 4, That the influence no pos- It would have been - but fair in the Honourable and sensed ba the Crown is unnecessary for the retaining Learned Gentleman, in considering this p art of the o f its prerogatives, destructive of the indepena credit for what eace case, to ha ve g i ven Governme t o f Parliament, and inconsistent with the well-govern- had done to diminish the n ' influence of the Crown in l og of the realm"—[The Honourable and. Learned the Colonies. If he had acted with as much candour, G o/ Yen:an, at the conclusion of his speech, was loud he would have had .9 co inform the House of their abo cheered bli both sides of the House.] li • Orin of numerous patent offices compatible The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he had seats in that House—(H ear, /ear).—According to to bespeak the favourable indulgence of the House, the ' existing regulations, no offices could be held while he as shortly as possible followed the course of by persons who did not go out themselves to the Co argument taken by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. lonies ; and in that particular the whole influence of The proposition of the Hon. and Learned Member the Crown had been changed and subverted (Hear). appeared to be founded in a great measure on a cal- The law which had wrought the change not only of culation of the public expenditure; and if he could divested the Crown the power over twenty-nine induce the House to sustain his proposition, he in- offices for political purposes, but it absolutely turned tended, it seemed, to advance a traeasure, the nature out twenty-nine persons from that House. He must of which he (the Marquis) could not Collect from the next follow the Hon. Gentleman to the East Indies; speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, until he and upon that part of the statement he could merely had kindly disclosed it at the end. The Hon and observe, in'the absence of details, *that when he be- Learned Gentleman had declared his intention to longed to that department of the State, it would have propose a Reform of the Parliament. low, he had been considered a year of extraordinary harvest, had tio objection in the world to the Hon. and Learned such amount of patronage as he had stated occurred. Gentleman's attempting to reform the Parliament. The third of what he had stated would be nearer the It had been attempted before in the course of the truth ; and then it was to be considered, that this present Session, and undoubtedly the Honourable and Patronage was.granted by the Company as matter of Learned Member bad a right, if be pleased, to return grace and favour to the Board of Controul, and not to the charge ; but he ought not to' do this under to the Government. The Hon. and Learned Gentle cover of diminishing the influence of the Crown. He man stated, aliat the charge of collecting the revenue was happy to assure the House that he could join of fifty millions was four millions at first ; 'whereas issue with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, as to in. 1780 it was only one million. In order to place MSC of the facts he bad advanced in support of his this part of the quistion in its true light, it was neces arguments. He should not enter into the motive of nary to look at the comparative numbers employed, any individual Member of Parliament ; .but he de- with the amount collected. He held in his hand an vied, in the outset, it was of the corrupt nature at- account of this nature, for the Customs l of the year tributed to it by the Honourable and Learned Gen- 1797, as Compared with that of 1821, and he should' tleman. He believed that the influence of the Crown have, taken his information from 1792, being the gave strength to the opinion of large bodies.— more usual year of reference, were it not that the re- At the same time he admitted that that influence had cords for that year had been burnt. In the year 1797, at times been excessive, and that the measure which, it appeared that the number of officers employed for as appeared by history, had at various times been the Customs Revenue was 5728. The number em brought forward to restrain it, had been constructed Ployed last year, 1821, was 6864 persons. Thus the on principles of sound and good legislation ; and he increase was less than 1000, and the difference in the hoped the same degree of vigilance would continue amount of revenue collected was between £11,500,000 to be observed towards that influence ; and if the' for the latter year, and £6,000,000 for the former— Hon. and Learned Gentleman had made out a case (Hear, hear).—The amount collected, therefore, was of the existence of influence inconsistent with the double, and the number employed for that purpose liberties of Parliament, it would be their duty to take had increased only one-seventh. An increase of one immediate steps to .check the growth of it. But he third had taken place in the salaries, but that was' had no right to argue as he bad done, by asserting principally owing to a commutation which had been that the influence of the Crown was great, and as- made for fees, but the influence of the Crown had in sunning, therefore, that there should be a Reform in no way been swelled by that.. It was much the same 'Parliament. That was the real object of his motion; in the Excise. In 1792, the number of officers was for he had distinctly statel that it was to a reformed 4693 ; for the year 1821 it was .5665. The salaries Parliament that they were to look for a remedy to all in the former year were £318,000, in the latter the evils of the last twenty years. The Hon. and £638,000, having doubled in.ainount from the same Learned Gentleman drew a comparison between the cause as he had stated to operate in the Customs.— extent of the influence of the Clown in 1780, when The Revenue in the two cases were 8,120,0001. and the Parliament voted that it was excessive, and after 24,647,0001. shewing the increase in the number of endeavouring to make it appear that that influence persons employed at less than 1000, with an aug bad increased since that period, came to a conclusion mentation in the Revenue of 18,000,0001. sterling.— that it was excessive now. His mode of making the He next came to the Taxes, which gave a difference comparison, however, was not a fair one—by taking of from 3,500,0001. as they were in 1792, and the amount of the revenue in the oss, and the 7, 400 , 0001 . as at present. The numb er of O ffi cers :comparative numbers of the army and navy. That was for the former period was 220, and for the latter 287. not treating the question upon its own basis, not coming In the Stamps, the difference was from 3,4.00.0001. so much to close quarters as he could have wished. Nob : 100,000/. and the number of persons employed The narrower basis was, the extent of the influence now exactly the same as then, viz. 24. Thus he of the Crown in Parliament. But taking the extent was sure it must be obvious that the whole regula of the Revenue in time of war was by no means an tions of the service, so far from being framed to en equitaole way ; and he must here say that he found courage patronage, shewed that the authors of them a spirit of exaggeration run through the whole of the were in search of a principle of sound financial admi- Hon. and Learned Gentleman's statement upon this nistration of the resources of the country. In the occasion. All his figures were augmented beyond Customs there were certain regulations as to age ob their fair and real amount, and all his extracts dis- served with regard to all persons admitted, and their torted in a manner that it would ill become the promotion took place according to merit and previ- House to allow itself to come to a conclusion upon, ous examination. The Honourable and Learned Gen in a matter pregnant with such deep importance and tleman said, that the Treasury had extended its grasp danger. For instance, be stated the revenue and ing arms into every department of the State, and he expenditure for the present year at 28,000,0001. particularized the Excise. Now he defied him to whereas it was only 18,000,0001. In the same way make out this assertion, and he protested against any he quoted the Army at 33,000 in 1780, whereas the such being received by the House. The Board of influence of the Crown spread over 60,000, inde- Excise had at complete contreul over their depart pendent of the establishment at home. But when the meet now as at any former period, and everything Hon. and Learned Gentleman compared the extent relating to that department shewed the reverse of the influence of the Crown at these two aseriods, of any principle that arrived at patronage. The would be also compare the state of the country?— most curious part of the Hon. and Learned Gen- Would he compare the population at present withwhat tleman's case was where he attempted to establish the it was in 1780 ; the difference in point of wealth, and existence of great Crown influence from thirty mil the difference in the state of the public mind after it lions paid to the public creditor. In order to assist had been broken in upon by all the dangerous and his argument here, he was obliged to have recourse fatal doctrines, which from the time of the French to the Exchequer processes, upon which he had raised Revolution up to the present period, had come forth a very learned law argument no doubt, but the' to distui b the peace of the world?—(Hear, hear). —In bearing of which on the question he hoped he should adverting to the comparative strength of the Army be excused for saying he could not at all understand. and Navy, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman stated He believed, in point of fact, that so far from the Ex the number of 27,000 as being under the influence chequer processes being increased during the period .of the Crown in the half-pay alone, and then asked he had alluded to, the taxes had been collected them ho .v it was possible to resist this? In the first throughout a period of great and general distress place he must say, that he was here, as in most of his with less recurrence to legal processes for the last two calculations, quite at a loss to conceive where the years, and particularly this year, than at any other Hon. and Learned Gentleman got his numbers from. known time. It was impossible for him to go into. But he asked, was this numerical kind of argument the instances quoted by the Hon. and Learned Gen a fair way of treating the question ? Ought not rather tleman, which, after all, applied more to the severity the basis of the argument to be the spirit in which this of the law, than to the question before them ; but he amount of influence was administered ? The Army must say, that if he wished to derive any benefit from be was sure w:a administered upon principle! as free that part of his argument, built upon a supposed from any imputation of party favour as it was possi- mistaken increase in the number of Exchequer pro ble ; and he appealed to many Hon. Members on the cesses, he must thoroughly revise it. The next point of Opposition Benches whether they were not treated, attack was the influence in Parliament from the nuns both at the Horse Guards and the Admiralty, with ber of the officers of the Crown. The Hon. and as much candour and liberality as though they al- Learned Gentleman here stated that the number of ways v-Jted with his Majesty's Ministers?—(Cheers). placemen in Parliament at present was eighty.— They had already discussed the two services in point Here again he must observe, that he must be in pos of amount, and he challenged any one to make out session of more materials for calculation than he (the ' a case of abuse in the employment of the prover they Marquis of Londonderry) had access to, as he found afforded to the Crown. The Hon. and Lea:tied Gen- himself quite unable to keep pace with him. He had, tleman next went to the Colonies, and stated the in- however, taken great pains to inform himself oa tht i crease of offices in that department of influence at subject, and the result of his investigation was, that eight hundred. Where he got his materials from he there were not more than 47 or 48 persons in that ' (the Marquis of Londonde: ry) did not know ; but al- House who held offices under, the Crown, that could though he was not prepared to go into detail fur the in any sense be said to give the Crowe any influence information of the House, he would undertake to say, over them. Indeed, he thought the Honourable and • that if 'cairns on that subject were laid before the Learned Gentleman must have drawn largela on the House, they would find thathe had doubled the num- i stores of placemen around him , to be able at an to ber from what it actually was. He s u pp osed he had I make out his numbers. He thought chat he must Create. I as offices under the Crown all the offices in the have included the Hon. Member for Caine, and the Col. •;oes, and even then, to make good his numbers, Hon. Member for Bath, and also the Hon. Member he must have had recourse to the most menial offices. for Peterborough must have been paraded ori the Ile had got a statement of how this matter stood its, occasion. But upon reviewing these - troops, if they Mist be Mustered, he thought they (Rd not savour much of that ruinous influence of the Crown which was represented as bearing down all before it. He was ready to admit that constitutional jealousy might very Properly be entertained towards a number of persons acting together, who were very likely to be actuated by a strong feeling in favour of the course of politics pursued by each other—We/O.— He had never complained of such a jealousy being felt, but he complained that the Hnn. and Learned Gentleman should argue that everything in the House, except the Officers of the Crown, was deserving of ! the utmost stretch of confidence. He complained of the assumption, though perhaps the Hon. and Learned Gentleman did not claim that for himself, of exclu, sive purity in the Hon. Members on the other side of the House. But as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had made such attacks upon Parliament, the best way would be to look at the conduct of Parliament from thevery time which he cho s e as hi s pe r iod fo r com parison—the year 1780. LOoking at that conduct, he asked, whether it had not been actuated by a prin ciple to restrain the influence of the Crown in every point which could be construed as capable of corrupt influence, and of placing the influence of the Crown upon a narrower footing evenin Parliament itself?— The Noble Marquis proceeded to take a review of the different Acts for the abridgment of the influence of the Crown since the year 1780. He directed the attention of the House to the exertions of Mr. Pitt in making the loans for Government subjects of open competition. In the giving up much powerful meadsof rewarding his own creatures, the Minister of that day could scarcely be supposed to have been actu ated by any desire of patronage--Weary—That, as well as other instances, furnished proofs of large 4Q4 signal restrictions of the influence on the Crown imposed by the Parliament, so much the object of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's revilings—(Hertr).-La: The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had mistated thel late Mr. Rose, is making him say thit Ms. Pitt had . reduced four or five hundred offices, and create d, fifteen hundred. He said no such thing ; bat, on the contrary, that 4.80 had been reduced, and 200 odd created. Mr. Pitt, in 1804, abolished 196 offices, amounting to 42,0001. a year, all of which teing sine cures of three, four, and five hundred pounds a year, were those which a Minister desirous of retaining patronage would be most loth to part with. Thus the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had alleged that the increase of offices was proportionate with the in crease in the Revenue; but it was found not to be so. He had made similar mistakes in the other parts of his statement; but looking at what he had stated, and at the conduct of Government since the Peace, he thought there would be found a sufficient answer to that part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's argument, which was intended to prove that Parlia ment was disqualified from the discharge of its func tions. He had not yet shewn to the House in one point of view 'all the reductions which had been made in offices since the Peace. He had, early in the Session, shewn that a saving of 150,0001. had been made in such reductions, inconsequence of the Ad dress to the Crown at the end of the last &scion.— But exclusive of that, between the closing of the last war and the Address of last year, without any call from the House, Government had made an investiga tion into the different departments of the State, the result of which' was, that 1699 Officers had been re duced, and offices suppressed, cleating a saving of 360,0001. (Hear, hear I)—ex ctu si ve of the 150,0001. before stated. By the Bill of the Hon. Member for Corfe Castle (Mr. Bankes), with those already stated, 2012 persons had been dismissed, making a saving of 730,0001. exclusive of that last year. This shewed that there had been no indisposition on the part of his Majesty's Government to push the principle of re duction of the influence of the Crown to every coin mendable extent. And at this period an inquiry was going on into every department of ptiblic service, with a view to reduction, by Commissioners appointed by Parliament. Having, therefore, shewn that every step had been taken that could consistently be taken, and that the principle was still in progress.to diminish the extent of Government patronage, unless it was the in• tention of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman to con tend that the patronage of the Public Offices should be taken out of the hands of Government, and vested in some other quarter, he thought he had no founda tion on which to rest his motion. But the Honour able and Learned Gentleman had not directed his shafts against Government alone; he had reviled the Parliament, and that Parliament which had saved, not this country alone, but the world, was now to be degraded, by the House coming to such a vote as he had proposed to them —(H ear, hear). — If he had no better means of attacking the conduct of Parliament than by alleging that it one night agreed to a Bill for the repeal of the Malt Tax, and next night rejected it, he had better leave it alone. For unless he meant to say, that a full House was to be subordinate and of less importance than a thin one, and that all the apparatus of passing a Bill in that House, the different stages of which were in tended to guard against surprise, management, and neglect or ignorance, had better be dispensed with, his argument was good for nothing.- The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said it was odd that that House should alWays support the Minister of .the. day. If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would shew them how a Minister was to go on witkout the support of the House, he would assist him in return to a solu tion of the enigma of a House of Comments always supporting the Ministers: - It was that Parliamerft had always opposed -itself to those revolutionary principles which were aimed to sweep all the institu tions of the earth before them, and cause universal dis Union of the interests and elements of society. It had saved this country from a - foreign enemy, and protected it against an infatuated party at home.— Throughout the whole of the late eventful reign; in which was involved all that was dear to the liberties of this country and of the world, it had maintained one steady march. The Parliament had supported* the Crown in all it had done, and was not the gloomy forebodings of the Hon. Gentlema . it, nor his open and indirect efforts, that had been able to irtest its progress in its wit, and magnanimous course. Yet notwithstanding thit it had conducted them through a time of eventful lid Unexampled pen% the Hbn. and Learned Gentleman stated that it was not qua lified to conduct the affairs of the nation. It had saved the character of the cduntry, and he would never stand by mid See . it 4eliade itself by Such a TOW as that proposed by the 40a. aad Learned Gen t a .111. no • • • • - ••••• tleman. Re called upon the Horse not to counte nance this covert motion for Reform. 'Hi warncd them that that was the object of it ; and that 'the Honourable and Learned Gentleman would never be contented with the Bill for abolishing the petty offices he, had talked of, nor by the removal of the Membetl of that House alluded to by him.— If they granted him that motion, he would soon come to them again and tell them that he should be un worthy the confidence placed in him by the House if he did not tell them that nothing in conforman ce ! with the Resolution for dimi n i s hi ng t h e influent s of the Crown could be done, whilst that great nuisance, Parliament itself, continued to exist. He would call upon them to be true to themselves, and accomplish • a Reform in Parliament, the basis of Which was laid in his Resolution. It was not the influence of the Crown that he aimed at. He was indirectly attempt ing to sap the foundation of Parliament; well know ing that if Parliament could be brought to stigmatize its own character, it would not- be long before he could, achieve its destruction—(Hear, hear).—These were the grounds upon which he hoped the House would pass to the Order of the Day, and give no countenance to the motion of the Hon. and Learned peptlentan—(Cheering). Mr. H. G. BENNET said, that the Noble Lord had . concluded his speech in the same manner as all his Noble and Right Hon. predecessors. The interest of the Crown. wa, too strong for the interest oFthe Peo ple. There were 18,000, or nearer 20,000 Of ap. pointed and paid by theCtowni and he was astonished that the Noble Lord could venture to make the state- meats be had made to the House. In the year 1780, the whole of the patronage-el the Post Office was vested in the Postmaster General. At the present day, the whole was in the hands of, the Treasury. The same had. taken place in the .Other Departments.of GovernMent. In the Army; since 1793, 989 O ffi cers had been -deprived of their COmmiisions. So mtich . for the influence of the Crown in the Army—(flear). In-Parliament. there were 87 Placemen holding situar tions to the Amount Qf 160,0001. There were also 73 NaStal and Military Officers who had seats in tliat Houie.. • The . Hon. Gentleihan then alluded to the Church patronage in the hands of the Crown, as a great source of influence, there being 1,200 livings • in the gift of the Crown. In 1780, the number of Peers was 200; at the present day the number was. 378. No man could doubt that many owed their. elevation to the Peerage, to the influence they pos. sessed in. that House. The merits of the Parliaments might be best. known by the difference betweetr.the. state of the country n3w and what it had been in the year 1792. He went the full . length of .his Hon.. Friend. The Country would have a cheap Govern ment and a reformed Parliament. Mr. S. WORTLEY stated, that • the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had accused Parliament upon false grounds. Helawno need of Reform in Parlia.• nient—(Hear, hear jroni the Opposition)—which, upon the principles of the Hon. Gentleman, would lead to a change in the form of Government. Wien the Government was in the hands of Mr. For, the House naturallysupported him as the Minister of the Crown. When the King had changed his Ministers, after the death of Mr. For, it was not the part of the House to tell the King • that he had done saroi,g, by not supporting his Ministers ; and the counts) was of the same opinion —(Hear, hear).—At the time of the Walcheren Expedition, he had voted in the majo- - rity, as the effect of a vote of censure on Ministers would have put the Gentlemen opposite in power; and the country had no confidence in the Gentlemen opposite for carrying on the war. So long as the Gentlemen opposite flattered the passions and rreju dice, of the People, they would never acqusie the confidence of the sober-minded part of the Eng. lish nation, Mt. PEEL was inxion, to rescue his Constituents from the charge Which had, most undeservediy, been thin is out against them by the Hots. Gt:nziermits. on account of their election of Lord Grenville as their Chancellor. But he would ask, who could the University have selected who had a higher claim to that distolguished honour? Wh titer we looked at his private'or public character; both gave him a claim to the honour of the Chaitceslorshin; and when it was considered that his opponent was Lord Eldon, he thought that was a suffi cient answer to the charge •thrown nut sgait,st the University for their choice of Lord Grenville. The Right Om. Gentle man defended Lord Grenville for She course he bad adopted on the CathoLc Question, in 1807 and, 1817. Mr. Ni }atilt:KELL also defended the conduct of the Uri vetsity of Orford. Mr. - BROUGHAM, in reply; said, the Right lion. Member for the University of Oxford bad certainly shewo a laudable deilte to defend hal constituerits, ha the Right lion. Gentleman was snis:nformed. Ho. eonsidt red Lord Grenville a proper choice for the University. The Noble Lurd had all the accomplish mints to qualify him for tile high office to which he was elected; but he had saitLthat hadit not been for that N-oble bud's near approach to power, he would not hav,e,betn elected. -Ile consi dered that election an instance of the power of the Crown out e4doors. The Hon. and Learned Gent!eman having shortly replied to the other topics of debate, the House divided, For the amendment - - 216 For the motion - - • 101 Maioritlall44 l 4l l bli med.* . - --IA s • CANADA CrIFERNMENT AND TRADE BILL. Mr. WILMOT brought tip the Report of the Canada Tads Committee. The Resolutions-were read and agreed to. Mr. WILMOT moved the Order of the Day for going into a Committee upon the Canada Government and Trade 1111 E-i-, -, He said that the intention was only to go into a Coalmine, pro forma, for the purpose of embodying the Resolutiont of . the COnimittee in the Bill. " • ' . HT did notation to glee his consent to any part of the prOgtess of this_Bill. It went to effect changes as great as the proximate cause of the American Revolution. Mr..gLitcE suggested to his Hon—Friend the expediency of allotting the House to go into the Committee, as it would not pledge hicnisithe Bill.' Mr. BRI.G HT explained, and the BilLwas committed. The Report wan ordered to be received on Friday. Sth July. Mr. BROG DEN brought up the Report of the Committee of Supply. Upon. the Resolution foe advancing the sum •of £loo,uon to Ireland, General' GASCOY NE complained that the Session was al lowed to pass without anything more important being done for the Irish people. Ile considered that one of the chief causes of distress in that country was to be found in its superabundant pordation.—The Resolution was agreed to. The Window and Hearth Duties (Ireland) Repeal Bill was read a third time, and passed. The Kilmainham Pensions Bill was read for the third chile, and passed. A Message from the Lords announced their Lordships assent to the Tonnage Duties Repeal Bill, and several Private Bills. Idr. S. RICE gave notice, that on Thursday, the 4th of July, be *mild move certain Resolutions, founded upon the Fourteen* Report of the Commissioners for enquiring into the Courts of Justice in Ireland, relative to the conduct of the Lord Chief Baron. Mr. HUTCHINSON presented a Petition from Mr. Roviley Lucelles, complainiug of abuses in the Record Office in Ireland. Ordered to lie on the table. Mr. HUME said, that the Petition contained an allege** which demanded inquiry. Tips ether Orders of the .Day were thee p os tp o n e d, aa4 she Reuse adjourned at Half-put Twelve o'Clock. li , is t. f. 11 ,1 ( ;10 t I 1 1 1 ' i •~ tia e••••1,s