Star. — London, England, 1822-02-22 00:00:00

• • • I t si. --212251 look not only to the extent of thejednction to vessels the use a the dockeval was luperseded.— mwle, but also ,to guard against aniaaprudent sys- The next item was that of the Ordnance. The :tent °La-eduction:. He knew thartals assertion sub difference between the Atmorint. of that establish- jieted hi ma i d obserrations of those itho had not merit for the ' year 1792 end for, the present year, maturelyed the matter; latrt, , lio . any man who with the same allowances as before , being added had paid proper attention to the inquiry, it must be duty of Government to look' to the increase in the Army and Navy, would shew obvious that it was the a- total increase for. .the - military establishinsat-01.awith • cautious:tor/deliberate eye upon the operation 5,201,1791.—(Hear). —In considering the Civil List, of a measure of reduction in any establishment, si- 'be had wished to be able to make the same .coms tooted make establishments of th isis country were. If - ' partson with regard to that, as he had in the faring" ffielTohli z. tord thought that a ill further saving instances ; but, on examining the accounts, he found . could be made in the expenses of the Army, be must them so complicated, that he was obliged to content at least admit that Ministers had reduced that depart himself with a general statement. The whole Civil ment to the lowest possible amount numeric a l y. And expenditure for 1792 was 2,172,45 31 . The establish- if they had not reduced te naval arsenal to what meat for the present year was 2,741,0001. shewing an the Noble Lord might think a suitable establishment, increase of 568,547/. It would be seen, then, that he hoped the Ministers would get credit for an anxiety' the whole amount of the increase in the Civil and to maintain our naval supremacy, and not risk it by Military Establishments, since the year 1792, was reducing ourselves to a situation of weakness and in -5,769,9691. He denied that red uction to the amount competency, which perhaps would be the cau se of that he had in view would be inconsistent with a due bringing them to a condition in which they would de attention to the interests of the State, aad the main- serve the ridicule and contempt of posterity. This tenance of its engagements. lf, then, he shewed that question was not to be looked at in reference to the v there could be no danger in a reduct ion to the amount views, interests, or passions of any particular cl ass of five millions, the only question f or the House to of persons. If his Noble Friend , instead o f viewin g consider was this, whether it would be m ore con- it in that way, would only judge of its bearings by ducive to lend out five millions at simple interest, hy the effect which it had upon the general interests of way of loan, and in the manner detailed by the Noble the county he was sure his candour would oblige y, Marquis, or leave it in the pockets of the people, by him to acknowledge that public affairs were not in so taking off so much of the taxes? The original Sink- deplorable a condition as they were said to be. The ing Fund was to reduce the debt of the country ; but excess of revenue was a proof of the improvement the object of the present seemed only to be to raise of the country—(Hear). Upon former occasions, when similar excess was declared, Gentlemen used to the prices of Stock : but even to accomplish that ob ject, it would be found ineffectual. He shewed, by scout it as unreal and delusive. They were in the a calculation of the amount daily transferred, taking habit of treating it as a fallacy—as a spirt of the aro the.average of the last year , that the Commissioners ment, and that, as it was without a basis, it would could interfere no farther t han to the extent of about end but in disappointment. The same objections cer one-fiftieth of the whole transactions; so that their tainly could not be made to the present excess in the demands could have very little effect in raising the revenue. Even the Noble Lord should admit that prices of the Stocks ultimately. Besides,it would be that did not stand upon so sandy a foundation as those remembered that there were occasions when we bor• surpluses of former yehrs to which he alluded— rowed largely, and even took away the Sinking Fund —(Hear). It was a real and substantial increase in entirely; yet the measure had not the effect of sink- the revenue of the country. It was an increase not ing the prices—on the contrary, they were raised at arising from the consumption of this or that article, the very time. The plan of the Noble Marquis was or from any particular branch of the revenue, but' to teduce - 1,500,000/. and to go on reducing until, in from every branch of the public revenue, and the se about six or seven years, he would accomplish a re- veral branches of our foreign trade. He contended duction of about five millions. The question then that such an increase of revenue was evidence of the was, would the House think they were doing better increasing prosperity of the country; for could an for the country by making a reduction to that amount increase take place in the revenue unless there was a at once, or wait for the interval of so many years?— corresponding increase in the consumption of taxable Let them recollect the state of the whole country at articles ?—that increased consumption could only ori this moment. But he could hardly believe, from ginate in an increase of means in the consumer, and former experience, that the surplus spoken of would this from an increased and increasing degree of ease be kept so sacred as was supposed. It was not yet and opulence in every part of the community— determined that the Four and Five per Cents. should (Heart hear). —Having then an excess of revenue over be .reduced; the transaction would take some time the expenditure, and with the facilities which such I before it was completed. The question, then, was excess left to Ministers of remitting a sum ;of taxa-1 this, whether or not the relief was to be immediate? tion, the question was not now whether any reduc- It was not necessary to have recourse to artificial tions should be made, but in what degree and to what means of raising the Funds; the improvement and extent such reductions were to be effected ? It was prosperity of the country would always be sufficient impossible that the view which his Noble Friend took to raise the confidence of the Public; and it was not of this subject should not have struck Government, to be doubted that the five millions alluded to would when they first came to consider the means in their do infinitely more good when left at the disposal of hands, and that they too saw the possibility of re tire People, amongst themselves, than when applied ducing the taxes to the same extent as the excess to the purchase of Stock. The House then, he hoped, created amounted to. But Government, by not cons would attend to the import of his proposition. He sentin to reduce the taxes to that extent, proved at had no hesitation in declaring it to be his opinion, least that they had no selfish objects in view, for if that the whole five millions ought to be reduced; but they could have any ambition to gain popularity, for the purpose of practical benefit to the country, he certainly no step which they could take would be half would confine hi; motion to the simple issue, whether so effectual for that purpose at the present moment or not the House was satisfied with the plan of the as the reduction of five millions of taxes—(Heer).— Noble Marquis? So far as Ire could presume from They had, however, their duty in view ; and having what had passed in the House, he believed that it was the means in their hands, it remained with them to not the intention of Ministers to follow up immediately say in what manner these means were to be applied the exposition of the plan by any measure which with the best likelihood of beneficial results. They would call upon the House to decide upon the ques- certainly felt all the advantages of conceding a re tion; and, if they had, he hoped they would not take duction of taxes, but they sere also justified in doubt advantage of any objection of that nature, as he would ing whether the relief bestowed by such a measure consider that mode of meeting the question as yield- would be more than counterbalanced by the evil con ing the point. The simple question, then, for the sequences which it would necessarily induce. Ile House to decide was, whether or not they were satin- (Mr. Robinson) was convinced the consequences would fled with the plan of the Noble Lord ?—(Hear).—He be more detrimental than the relief could be bene concluded by moving the following Resolution: ficial—(Hear, hear).—lf he understood the plan of .. That it is the opinion of this House, that the reduction on the Noble Lord rightly, there was incorporated in it the amount of taxation proposed by his Majesty's Ministers was an avowed and systematic intention of destroying the not sufficient to satisfy the justice of the case , or the expecta- Sinking Fund altogether—a measure of finance than Lions of the People ?" which he could net conceive any more fatal to the in- Mr. F. ROBINSON said he was ready to acknow- terest of such a country as this. All the men who ledge that the Noble Lord had opened the considera- ever looked at this question with consideration, agreed tion of this very important question in the fairest and in the abstractpo licy of most candid manner. Ile could assure the Noble heardobjections •to it as applied to practice, some of Lord that so far was it from the intention of Minis- which he did not understand. If, indeed, it was said ters to meet the issue which the Noble Lord pre- that it was • not good policy to pay off the Debt with rented to the House, by any indirect means or eva- one hand, and it • increase with the other, as was the sive objections, that it was gratifying them much to case in a part of last war, such an objection was in have the opportunity given for the House to decide e;but telli •bl gt how a real Sinking Fund, which, with- 1 upon it. He therefore thanked the Noble Lord for out adding to the. Debt, was efficient, so far as it originating a motion by which the direct question went, to • would be tried. In looking at the question now before at a loss • • to imagine —( Near, Hear, hear).--The Noble Lord them as one which involved a contrast between two mig • h t say, that the only effect of this Fund was to very different measures, it was material for the House raise the price of Stock in the market, and ask how not to lose sight of the circumstances under which it '• h • • was poss i ble, with a Sinking Fund of 5,000,0001. they were enabled to discuss it. The question be- which in six years would make but 30,000,0001. to Debt tween them was not whether there should be reduce reduce a tion or no reduction, but whether it was wiser at once the Noble Lord mean to deny t hat the existence of a influence to make the reduction to the amount of the surplus, Sinking Fund had no upon the public H credit which was to be turned into a Sinking Fund, or corn- of the ? He (Mr. Robinson) would tell the bine the maintenance of the integrity of the Sinking Noble d Lor , that the insuring of a systematic op. Fund with the gradual reduction of taxes?—(H ear ) . placation of a sum of money to the reduction of the The House should, in the first place, consider that Debt, acted as a stimulus to industry, and a security this was the first time for forty years since the House to the public creditor, far beyond the • al had beer. in a situation to discuss what was to be done value of that sum, ' numeric. whatever it might be, and that with the actual surplus of the revenue. They should • h compared with this secondary effect, the reduction look to the circumstances which produced that sur- of the Debt was but of small importance— (Hear). —. plus. It had been the result of two causes—the re- The Noble Lord lead admitted that practical men duction of expense and the improvement of the re- viewed the • questiou differently from him, and he venue. He would not follow the Noble Lord through ' gave it as his op inion that even if Parliament did the details of his speech; but he would say, that if abolish this system of a Sinking Fund, the public the Noble Lord could satisfy the House that, by a credit of the country would not be at all affected by greater reduction than even that proposed by Minis- the measure. In this view, with great deference 'to ters, they could increase the surplus still more, even the Noble Lord, lie (Mr. F. Robinson) entirely dif then he would shew that the motives were the greater fered fro m I• um ; for he .sas firmly convinced that for the maintenance of a Sinking Fund. The Noble a measure such as the Noble Lord contemplated, would Lord's proposition was—reduce the taxation at any not only • be likely to shake public credit, but • rate, and leave it to chance savings to form a Sink- one thing that if more than another was ing Fund out of. But he (Mr. Robinson) would rat- lab d required to scatter abroad terror and dismay, it would b ean they say, maintain the Sinking Fund arid reduce what the integrity attack upon of that Fund whi c h he • you can by various savings. Upon the details of the —Vicar, hear)—He was Resolution proposed he would not now trouble the the No ble Lo • therefore most jealous of rd's proposition, because he considered Ilouse ; but he could answer for it that Mini s ters, last . it the year, proposed a Resolution with the most deliberate ' Funds forerunn er of a most desperate attack upon the altogether —(Cries of " No").—He certainly intention to act up honestly to its spirit. The mode a nd extent of reduction was all that he should at called upon to reduce tire Sink ing Fund because the l a went deal with. It was the duty of Ministers to , country w as una bl e to pay, m ight it not be expected that when that reduction was conceded a farther . re- extinction of the debt, bat Ministers' sever " hi Judea irlailtrnot be Called for, ail thl*Piirlbisnenimit it to remain at rest. He was surprised to would at - leagtb be deicer to • that . aieva flecessitaSs.r the resolution of 1819 quoted by the Right H on . ' thitt stltimat suppliciiiii,4 violating the publiciaitbs, Gentleman—a resolution amounting to a solem . n which, however, it was to be understood, he did not at pledge to bold this Fond inviolable--(Hertr).--Th e • all recommend—(Hear, hear).—Parliament, by gir. o creditors surely could not place much reliance o n ing up the Sinking Fund, would be driven to that ne- the faith of that House, when the 7 found it so voted cessity. To do away with public credit would greatly in 1819,,and it was not in operation before 1842._ aggravate the present situation of the country. The Rut if they were ready to preserve inviolate the pub. destruction of the Sinking Fund would ha v e that ef- lic fa i th , as had been said, it aright be as well t o l oo k ' fect, and it would be a necessary -forerunner ofa how the Chancellor of the Ezehequer had kept his more fatal attack upon public credit—(Hear). --But faith with that part of the Public concerned in land. in making these observations, he wished n ot t o be He refe rred the House to the Resolutions p asse d in 1811, declaring that the pound note was considered u pe n s d i er tiv s e to god od as_ ( ar u gli as in r g ). thlariethken,eNeraordar Debt e t was a were as equivalent to twenty shillings , and that theft was many who looked upon it with a jealous and evil eye, no depreciation in the value of gold. It would be and.that there was a common impressi on that the seen ,therefore, that p ersons connected with the la nded stockholder was a great proprietor , veg etatin g in int erests, on the faith of those Resolutions, expected that when peace came they should find the p ay ero am pulen ite c . e; l a h n it h h ear ow d ev in er g , u w p as w a ea et lt a h fai w r iti clefi lu n s itt r n iotis of • note of as much value as it had been during the war. the stockholders; for though it might be true as with Without saying anything more as to the effect of the regard to some, yet there were other persons holders Sinking Fund, lie would advert to the expense s ° id le of stock who were neither opulent nor idle, but, on Nation at the period of 1798, and at the present time. the contrary, whose all was centered in those Stocks, He did not mean to say that they ought to bear an and which all was the result of honest and laborious exact comparison to each other, but the former being ainsdiutsrtera time of war, and this being a time of peace, they H lated tto d r ! em , h Viewing e_e ea d the not security,leek upon - ought to bear some proportion to each other. I n tempt to diminish it but with great jealousy ; and he 1798, the Civil List amounted to £895,000 ; inlB2l, considered even the most distant attempt upon that £1,057,000. In the same year the Pension 1,4 which was their amounted to 12134,000 ; in 1821, it was £4.31.000.—. The salaries for the former period an ere £25,000; for the latter £72,000. The whole amount of the Civil List, and other permanent charges, for 1798, was £1,111,000. For the present year, the amount was £2,040,000, nearly double. He admitted that ti.e cost of Ireland was in the last, and not in the first but there were many expenses, obviously unneces,arr, which at the present time might very well be spat,,;'. The regulation to which he had adverted in an eerly part of the evening relative to the Si . anish Govele ment might be a very useful one, if applied as ex tensively as it fairly might be. With the exception of France, he thought there was no Court at %%hies it was necessary to have Ambassadors. Envoys cr Ministers Plenipotentiary would be quite sufficient and less expensive. With regard to the question as to whether a reduction of taxes would carry with it ' any relief to the people, lie was at a loss to under stand how there could be any difference of opinion . His view of the causes of the distresses of the rim e . try might be summed up in very few words. Owing to causes, which however erroneous, it was not ne cessary to investigate; the produce of land did net obtain remunerating prices, and the only way to re medy that was by reducing the supply to a level with the demand, and by a reduction of taxes. The supply would of course become limited to the extent of the market in time, but before that came about thousands and thousands would lie ruined. A great quantity of capital would be lost, and above all, cir cumstances of the most afflicting nature would take place. The farmer would-first begin to reduce the quantity of labour—tile labourers would then suffer from want of employment, whilst the farmer became more and moredistressed till he would at length be wore down by evils he dared not face, to the situation of a pauper, who must go to the parish for support. This bad already been the case in several parts of the country, and many rich farmers had been reduced to the state of parish paueers. Although this was owing to natural causes, yet they ought to lose no oeportu nity of alleviating the temporary pressure of di,t: eis. This might be done by the reduction of Ease., which would enable him to enjoy some of the pi oats ca . his farm. It was of no use to say that taxation cs as not the cause of his distress, and therefore could not re lieve it. If, when the horses of a carriage were down, some wise philosopher were to address those Id° were busy in taking off* the harness, in terms cf re probation for their folly, saying it was not the :I.lr ness that caused the horses to fall, but the stone in the road, he believed he would not be minded, but that those whom he addressed would continue to take el the harness to enable the horses to get up the sooner. The effects of the measure which went by the name of Mr. Peel's Bill, had worked a great change in the currency, which must long continue to be telt. The measures which had been passed, tending to depre ciate the currency, were fraught with as much mi sery, and as extensive ruin, as foreign invasion, the visitation of a pestilence, famine, or any of those evils which we were in the habit of praying might be averted from us (Thar, Lear;.—He hoped no Minister Would be found, for the future, capable of making such another attempt. He was disposed to laugh at Ministers taking credit to themselves for all the im provements that had taken place in some of the inte rests of the community. Every discovery, even that of a cotton-spinner at Manchester, must be made to confer honour on them. If they found, for three years, the manufacturers in that condition that they actually carried starvation in their faces, and misery and suffering in their appearance, was it because it was next year shifted to the farmer, that the wisdom of Government was to be lauded ? However it niivhr shew the incredible power of the country to overcome difficulties, if anything, blame belonged to the Go vernment. With this view of the subject, he cer tainly should give every support to the motion of his Noble Friend—(Loud cheering). Mr. WHITMORE said, that an attempt should be made, as for as was practicable, to remove the enor mous load of debt and taxes. Did he agree with the Noble Lord, he should think it necessary to compound with the public creditor; but he disagreed wholly with the Noble Lord, nor could he possibly conceive, in the present state of the country, how excessive tax ation should lead to low prices. Till 1775, this coin try had been an exporting country ; and although for the first 64. years of the last century, the vice of corn had been 325. the quarter, after the country had ceased to export, the price had i isen to 455. the quarter, in consequence of an increasiete population. During the war, the agriculture of the country was stimulated to the utmost pitch, and premiums had been given, net to the cheapest, but to the best cultivated land. It was necessary to recede to a certain point, but the ef fects would not be what sonic seemed 'to fear. The last layer of expense would only be removed. He knew a poor farm on which, during the war, .4;150 had been expended annually for manure. The case would be, that instead of corn, barley would be raised; and the same thing would take place in similar farms. It was unquestionable, that the landed interest must submit to a :eduction of from :4'o to . 25 per cent.r-- But at the ba;ite time it should be recollected, dhat roller et est triples Circa pectus," • as attended with danger, and he should ever reg ard 1 such an attempt with anxiety and alarm —( Hear).— r).— ' He should therefore contrast the plans of the Noble Lord and the plan proposed by the Noble Marquis, and he flattered himself that the result would prove the advantages which the latter possessed. The Noble Lord would reduce taxation, which he endeavoured to chew would not affect public credit, nor produce any of those evils which he (Mr. Robinson) appre hended from it. But the effect of the Noble Lord's plan was at least problematical. It might, or might not have the effect he expected from it. The plan of the Noble Marquis (Londonderry), on the other hand, was free from doubt. The relief which it held nut was clear, distinct, and unqualified—(hear, hear).— Viewing the case in this way, he trusted the House would not adopt the proposition of the Noble Lord, and that they would feel that Ministers had faithfully discharged their duty, in availing themselves of the excess of the Revenue to apply it to the best interests of the State—( Hear, hear).—He was not sorry, however, that the - Noble Lord had brought this proposition again under discussion, because he was convinced the more the Noble Mat quis's plan was inquired into the more would its value be appreciated. He looked with confidence to the result of this discussion. He appealed to the House against the Noble Lord's plans, well knowing its sentiments with regard to the Sink ing Fund, and feeling that Ministers had done no thing to forfeit that favourable opinion which the House had always entertained of them for years— (A laugh).—Gentlemen might laugh, but be did not hesitate to assert that it was idle in any Administra tion to expect to carry on the government of this country unless they could appeal with confidence to the favourable opinion of Parliament—(hear, hear). — He appealed, then, to the House, and he appealed to the People—he appealed to the People of England, . because he knew they were just and generous— (Hear, hear)—he knew that, when they were labour ing under distress, they had a natural inclination to look up to Parliament, as a source of relief and com fort; but he knew also that they used to lay all the causes of their distress at the doors of the same body. GOD forbid that he should blame this feeling—he re spected it ; and although, at times, it might assume an irregular character, yet he knew it proceeded from good motives, and that, as the flint bears fire, which, much enforced, chews a hasty spark, and straight is cold again, so, when the ebullition produced by present distress had subsided, they would again re ceive at the hands of the House such relief - as the wisdom of Parliament would suggest. He knew that whatever might be the state of the public mind at this time, it was entirely devoid of systematic oppo sition to the wishes of Parliament. Parliament was disposed to do all in its power to alleviate their wants, and he himself should be allowed to say, that he gave place to none in wishes for their welfare. In return for these dispositions, he calculated with confidence , . upon the people's doing his Majesty's Ministers and this House that justice for which they had been pro verbially remarkable—(Hear, hear). — The Right Ho nourable Gentleman concluded by moving the two following Resolutions : 1. That It appears to this House, that there is a net excess of revenue, above the expenditure of the United Kingdom, which may be estimated, for the year ending the sth January, 1822, at 5f5,2C0,000, exceeding by X2tio,ooo the amount of that clear surplus, which, by a Resolution of this House, passed on the Bth of June, 1819, was deemed expedient to provide for the ' progressive reduction of the National Debt, and the security of public credit. " 2. That the House views with satisfaction that by the ope ration of this surplus, together with the 'eduction of interest upon the Eve per Cents. such a diminution of taxation may be obtained as will give that relief which was held out Ls a part of the beneficial results proceeding from the surplus so created." The first Resolution having been put from the Chair, in the shape of an Amendment, Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that he was so far from agreeing with the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, in the opinion he had expressed, that a great reduction of taxation would not be wise, that he thought such a measure was the only one that could confer essential benefit on the country at this moment, and was the only one at all likely to appease the sufferings of the People. The Right Hon. Gentleman, he thought, might have spared that part of his speech which related to the Sinking Fund. Let the Horne only recollect how much they had heard of the wonder-working effects of the Sink ing Fund of Mr. Pitt. It was but lately that the shade of that statesman had been invoked in support of it, and now it appeared they had, for the first time, any Sinking Fund whatever. That Fund, it ' appeared, depended entirely upon a surplus in the Revenue, and that surplus depended on an improve ment in the Revenue, and, what was still more ha zardous, on the economy of his Majesty's Ministers. All the golden prospects of Mr. Pitt, as to the ope ration of this Fund, it now appeared were a delusion, and instead of being of any use, it had, upon calcu lation, been an additional expense to the nation to the amount of thirty millions—(Hear, hear).—The Sinking Fund, if allowed to go on akcompound inte r , rest, he believed might do something to*ards the