Star. — London, England, 1822-05-07 00:00:00

~_ terest of the cottritry- -to look at the *feet of such a measure in gross, and not in anti& He, for one, would go the length of giving compensation to those who might suffer from the change, rather than con sent v' the continuance of a system which he con& dered to he equally injurious to the health and to the' m orals of the People. Mr. WHITBREAD said, that no complaint had ever been made against his house with regard to the licensing system. He would be at all times ready to co-operate with the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury in promoting a tree trade, Mr. C. Satiric and Mr. MONCK spoke a few words in support of the Petition. The Petition was then laid upon the table, and ordered to be printed. AGRICULTURAL REPORT. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY moved the Or der of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee for the further consideration cf the Re port of the Agricultural Committee. Mr. ELLICE wished to take the opportunity af forded by the motion, before the House went into the Committee, of stating his opinion as to the course re commended by his Majesty's Government for re lieving the difficulties with which the country was oppressed. After having seen what the Noble Lord proposed to do, he felt it his duty to stay the proceed ings of the House, until he should have entered his protest against all the propositions of which he had heard, as'being calculated not to relieve the agricul turist, and at the same time to be injurious to all the other interests of the country. He should only have taken this course now, in consequence of not being able otherwise to avoid the necessity of opposing the measures in all their progressive stages. After de cidedly stating his dissent upon the present occasion, he should trouble the House no more upon the sub ject. The Noble Lord had expressed a wish to take one proposition only to-nighi, that of the advance of one million sterling for the purchasing and ware housing of corn. He could not see how that propo sition was to be debated, without necessarily involving all the topics connected with the question. When the Agricultural Committee was first appointed, he stated that the only object and tendency of their la bour must be to raise the price of corn, and to place the monopoly of corn in the hands of 'the English grower. When that Committee made their Report, he was quite convinced that he had formed a right and a true belief; and the means about to be resorted to for effecting that object formed a collection of nostrums and quackeries wholly undeserving of the consideration of the House. Although so many plans had been proposed, yet no two of them agreed with each other. There was one from the Honourable Member for Somersetshire, another from the Honour able Member for Wiltshire, another from the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, and one from the honourable Member for Portarlington (Mr. Ricardo), besides that of the Noble Marquis (Londonderry).— He found them all differing, and the conclusions of most were not warranted by their premises. He was quite sure that the plans would be highly injurious to the manufacturing interests, and he should there fore oppose them. The principle of shutting out competi'l in in the supply of corn and creating mo nopoly must leai to that result. The Hon. - Member then alluded to the difference of opinion which exists as to the necessary amount of protecting duties. He contended that Gentlemen must understand each other, and come to some agreement as to the prices' they expected to obtain by means of these duties. Suppose then, they were to say fifty-five shillings, as was the price of corn now. He knew that Gentle men would not be satisfied with that, because they would say they could not meet their expenses and pay the taxes. He knew that ; and he would sup. I port them in reducing taxes, so as to put them in a state to compete with the foreign grower. The Hon. Member then took a review of the protecting duties and the coincident prices of corn from the year 1778 downwards. In 1791 the price of corn was forty-nine shillings, and the duty five shillings and tenpence. Nov the Noble Lord proposed to protect the price of seventy shillings by a duty of seventeen shillings. If agriculture was distressed, the distress was not to be thrown off upon the community at large by such means as these. Let Country Gentlemen reduce the taxes, and compel the Government to reconsider the question. Everything had decreased in value, which rendered the taxes so much the more isurthen some. In the estimate of the property of the na tion, made by Dr. Colquboun in the year 1813, it was calculated that the rental was £43,000,000. — Corn was then at 100 s. and the price of gold was 51. 10s. per oz. Now, the price of corn was between 50s. and 60s. and the value of property was reduced in proportion; yet taxes remained on the same scale. This was monstrous, and he would ask the House if it was not morally impossible that things could re main in such a state. He agreed in some measure with the causes laid down by the Hon. Member for Portarlington ; only the maximum of his Hon. Friend was his minimum and vice versa. His Hon. Friend stated that over-production was the greatest cause, and the alteration of the currency the least; while he said that the alteration of the currency was the greatest, and over-production among the least. The Hon. Member then reverted to former periods, when me tallic currencies had been restored, and stated that all such effects had been followed by a lowering of the price of corn. In 1809 the first depreciation of the paper currency took place, owing to the issue of four millions and a half of additional circulating me dium. Mr. Horner then said that the depreciation amounted to 15 per cent. Mr. Homer also con firmed his own opinion with regard to the fallacy of a gold standard. He contended that the country had been deceived into measures, all along the late extra vagant war, which bad now brought such distress upon the country. He did not. mein to complain of the Right Hon. Gentleman's measure opposite, but of the measure of the year 1797, which was the great sourced all the evil. In 1816, the Chancellor of the Exchequer came down with his Budget, and proposed to borrow a loan of twelve millions, and to extend the circulation by the issue of paper to a greater extent than was ever known in the history of the country. Then came the Right Honourable Gentleman's measure, and created all the difficulties which pressed upon the counts y. He supported the resolution which led to that measure, and he was slot disposed to shrink from it--( Hear, hear).-- lie should be one of the last to depart from that re solution, or to wish for the return of a paper currency. ... )L relcy would rived the Ay hale, petty, and narrow plaos,whicla, could not afford relief to the distressed interests..;-.6 They had heard,a.great deal from the Noble Loki about the prosperity of the commercial interests; but he believed that no man connected with ennimerciall pursuits would be found to corroborate the Noble Lord's statements. With regard to our manufactu rers, he believed that our manufactories had of late been considerably advanced . ; indeed they 'hid ad vanced to a state of activity never before known in this country. Yet he contended that this prosperity arose from unnatural causes, and could not be ex pected to last. The increase in the revenue had been also constantly sounded in their ears, and upon that ground there was little real cause for congratulation. He attributed this to the circumstance of wages not having yet been adjusted to the prices of provisions. Every Gentleman knew that if he asked his trades man why his charges were not lower, in consequence of the cheapness of the necessaries of life, he would be told that the high rate of wages prevented it.— Labour being paid for at this extravagant rate, the workman had more than sufficient for his want, and that surplus went to the gin-shop or the ale-house; and thus had the revenues of the Excise swelled up in all parts of the kingdom. He intreated the House to consider what they were about to do.— They had better leave the Corn Laws as they were, and wait until circumstances called for interference. The old laws gave a monopoly to the home grower, and the new ones would only do the same. But the fact was, that they were making these laws without the power of carrying them into effect, should it ever be necessary to do so. Supposing that when the rate of wages are brought down, as they must be, to meet the price of provisions, there should be a reverse in the manufacturing interests ; would the population stand quiet and see the artisan of France and of America supplied with corn at half the price they were obliged to pay ? It was quite impossible to con ceive that they would. An Hon. Friend of his, the Member for Nottingham, had lately told him that there never was such a demand for artificers and me chanics as at the present moment. It was a cruel thing at any time, to prevent a man from going to any foreign country freely and openly ; but to pre vent him from carrying his labourto the best market, was adding injustice to injustice. But if we op pressed and injured the working classes of mechanics by measures intended for the relief of other interests, we should inevitably drive them to other countries, and our commerce and manufactures would fall into decay as those of Holland did from the same cause. With regard to America, if he had been told ten years ago that America could become a manufactur ing country, he should nut have believed it ; because, where land might be had for £1 an acre, it was not to be expected that men would shut themselves up in a manufactory in preference to living independently upon their own soil. But the manufactories of Ame rica had, nevertheless, grown up in a surprisingdegree. At Philadelphia the number had considerably in creased, and the profits of those previously established had occasioned the starting of nine manufactories there in the last year. He was sure that the monstrous proposition of the Noble Lord relative to the advance of a million for warehousing corn, must be abandoned. The question which might then be put to him was, " What would you do?" And he was ready to grant Ito the Noble Lord, that he could see no way which* the Noble Lord or the Government would be bold enough to adopt, that was likely to afford relief.— ' There were no measures now upon the table, he was sure, that could have that result. It was impossible to go on under the present system of taxation. While everything else had so exceedingly decreased in value, die taxes had been advanced, at the lowest calcula tion, which was that of the Member for Portarlington, 'ten per cent.; and according to himself and others, forty per cent. or more. Thus, within the last two years, an additional ten millions of taxes had been levied upon the country. The only thing they could do, then, was to reduce taxation. That was the only way in which they could proceed safely, until they understood the question ; for he contended that every thing they now did was done in the dark. The plan of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer he considered to be a round-about way of doing what might much better have been done by the simple method proposed by his lion. Friend, of empowering the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund to advance a loan of £2,800,000 annually until the end of the pe riod for which they were now to contract. To the Country Gentlemen he would say, that they had forced the Government to this reduction of £1,800,000 of taxes, and he took that with satisfaction, glad to obtain it upon any terms. If they went on they would obtain double the amount of reduction. What he should propose was, that Parliament should adjourn after repealing the taxes, and leave the question open until the end of the year, when the House might re assemble to consider it. He had felt it his duty to protest against these measures, becauie they would be injurious to one class of the People, and that with out any benefit to the other. He should take the sense of the House against going into the Committee. Mr. BENETI" (of Wilts) denied that the Corn Bill gave any monopoly to the farmers. In the space of four years the increase of imported corn from Ire land had been sevenfold, and that of flour had been elevenfold, more than formerly. He believed that part of this had been imported into Ireland. The in terests of the consumers were the same as those of the other members of the community. While the farmers suffered, the home trade always declined. Much of the distress was to be ascribed to the alteration in the circulating medium. But the distress arose from va rious causes, and required various remedies. The only fair protection that agriculture could receive was from a fixed protecting duty on foreign corn. He wished for a price that would fix the rents at the ratio of 1792. At that time, one-third of the gross produce was regarded as a fair rent for a farm ; but at pre sent, on account of the increase of burdeps, the land lord received only one-fourth of the prockice. He, did not ask a higher rent than that of 1792, as he an ticipated a still further reduction of taxation. 'The opinion as to the influence of the landlords ovpr the rents was a mistaken islea, He knew many farhis in been always understOocithatthe shbject . should be discussed in a Committee. Mr. BROUGHAM had no more respect than the Member for Coventry for the plans of Ministers. But no man could oppose the Committee, unless he ap proved c.f . the Corn Lawi. Mr. MONK said, he could not 'tree with thlit Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had last spokes. He entertained the opinion of his Hon..iftimed (Mr.- Ellice). It was to taxation that he attriblsteediepie sent national disease ;.and he had beard se mealy proposed by any of the State physicists' wigs* met his approbation. He was an enemy, upon principle, to all Corn Bills—nay, he looked at the present low prices with satisfaction, and thought they might, in the end,. prove to be the salvation•of the country. Be did not admire the practice which was adopted by Country Gentlemen of imposing heavy taxes upoil the community, and indemnifying themselves by legislating so as to ensure high prices for their own produce. That low prices were an inconvenience to landholders he very readily admitted ; but he denied that they were so to farmers—(Hear, hear). Farmers were not very desirious to pay high rents. The great body of consumers gained by low prices, and he therefore approved of them. Dr. Paley thought that if it were not for the variations of the seasons the case of the farmer would be most deplorable, as the landlord would calculate the precise quantity of pro duce and exact accordingly from the farmer. He certainly did not go the full length of Dr. Paley's doctrine. He thought that scarcity in one county was generally balanced by abundance in another ; so that produce was more equal than was at first ima gined. He objected also to the proposition of Minis , ters because he thought it would fail in operation, but be objected principally because in , principle it enabled landlords to double and treble the taxes if they pleased, and impose artificial prices in order to protect themselves—(Coughing). He was aware that he incurred displeasure and probably censure for the avowal of these his opinions, but that circumstance would never deter him from expressing them. Mr. D. BROWNE was unfavourable to the pro posed scale of duties. Mr. ELLICE shortly explained. He had no other opportunity but the present of stating his opinions; and it was on that account that he had opposed the I motion.. He would not, however, press his opposi tion, so as to interfere with the discussion of the sub ject, especially as he found the general inclination of the House was for going into the Committee. Sir W. W. WYNN spoke a few words in favour of the principle of the Corn Laws. The motion was then put and carried without a division. The SPEAKER left the Chair; and the House being in a Committee, The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to move the Resolution for making advances to the holders of Corn, when the average price of wheat shall be under 60s. per leaner. The Noble Marquis said that this Resolution was perfectly distinct from the general principle of the Corn Laws ; and it would be an injustice to the Committee, as well as to his own opinions, were he not to state that it was clearly un derstood the proposed measure could not be adopted or even tolerated upon general principles. In every respect the proposed measure was a temporal y law ; and although public credit was to be employed in aid of the corn market, still it was only for the exigen cies of the particular occasion. That a loss might arise to justify the adoption of such a measure he had the high authority of the opinion of the Hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Baring), who, unfortu nately could not at present attend the House. The Hob. Member he alluded to had admitted the propriety of advancing three millions to assist the agricultural interest when produce was in a depressed state. This shewed that the opinion of the Member for Taunton was not decidedly against the creation of artificial prices. The proposed plan had, indeed, been called by an Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. . Brougham), a pawnbroking arrangement; and he (the Marquis of Londonderry) himself wished to be understood as not being a friend to the system of it—(Hear, hear).—All he contended was , that a case might occur which would render the sanction of such a measure politic as well as necessary under particular circumstances. The present, he thought, was a pressing case; and such, therefore, as to call for an extraordinary and particular remedy—(Hear). In order that the House might clearly see the prin ciple they were called upon to consider, it would be proper to notice the two chief propositions which had been discussed in the Agricultural Committee. One was for the purchase of corn by an Agent of Govern. ment, when it should be at a stated low price; the other was for encouraging, by bounties, the pur chases of private individuals. After much discussion, the first was laid aside, though he could not but ob serve that no reproach could be thrown upon the proposer of the plan, seeing that the Hon. Member for Taunton approved of it generally. It was laid aside. however, after one of the most calm and tem perate discussions he had ever witnessed; because it was considered that the purchaser of corn for the Go vernment would not have the exact sort of influence which was desirable. Individual interest was that which it was wished to Create; and the Agent who might be employed by Government, con not be supposed to- feel that controul over his con uct which would be occasioned by a sense of his own interest Looking at the other proposition, the Committee thought they might adopt it, and afford relief without violating any general principle.. The whole policy of this proposed arrangement arose out of the cir cumstances noticed by. the Committee respecting the state of the market. They found that the quail. tity of corn brought to market in the early months of the year, doubled the quantity brought within the, Same months in several preceding years--(Hear,hear). From this they inferred, and very naturally, that the market this year displayed a superabundance which caused a ruinous'ecimpetition among the sellers. The Jatter could not reduce the interest they were paying upon mortgages, although their prices had thus fallen; and measure• of some description was therefore no Ineatis dekviptiort of the present measure, to say that it Merely .proposed to rare the-priee•o4 corn : in fact, a convenient•distribution was all that,. was desired. This would be accomplished by givini: ran additional degree of facility to purchases. He 'really thought that the idea of a law to tai s e•pri c es Wad been long since exploded •in that House. Thi ps'esent increase would have the effect of - proteetiut flsr farmer against too early a market, to w hi t * ag,. present he was in many cases compelled to resort. illistbts, however, had been thrown out as to the ptic tiCal operation of this measure, and he himself had. considered it as laid aside, because it could not be operative. It had been thought that the difficulty was not so much in the absence of capital, as in the Want of a confidence that it might be employed to advan tage. He had last year proposed a monthly allow. ance, because he thought it would be active in its opetation. The present, undoubtedly, had other ad..' vantages, inasmuch as it would give general relief to. the extent of its operation. Still be confessed that he preferred the other plan, as it might prove an invita-- tion to enterprize. One advantage, however, of the proposed measure was, that . if it did no good, it cer tainly could do no harm, and this he believed the • r % • House would consider as no mean advantage whea they were trying an experiment—(A laugh).—lf corn should not rise, no one would suffer from the mea- sure ; and if it should rise, the agricultural interest would be relieved from the multiplied distress with which it was at present surrounded. .He certainly had not voted 'for this plan in the Cominittee ; his oan proposal had not been adopted ; and he had there fore left the whole subject to the consideration of the Committee; and it was in deference to the judgment of that CommKee that he brought the proposal before the House for its favourable opinion.— After an eulogium on the character and talent of the Members composing the Committee, the Noble Marquis proceeded to observe, that he had learnt from many of those Members, that the measure now proposed was that which the farmers thought would afford them the most relief. Whether they were right or wrong in this conjecture he believed the .House would be sorry to reject a favourite proposi tion which, at all events, was harmless; for the far mers, if it were rejected, would, not very unnaturally, attribute the continuance of their distress to its rejec tion. Ile had now briefly stated the grounds upon which he brought forward a proposal to which, upon principle, he objected, and which he had not sup- • ported in the Committee. Should the House admit the principle there would be little difficulty in de ciding upon particulars; and he might be allowed to express his hope that no other subject would be mixed op with a discussion of the present. Before he sat down he would observe, that although the plan might have been brought forward earlier in the year, yet as there were many months to elapse before the getting in of the harvest, there would be ample time for its operation. If the House should adopt this Resolu tion in an early. part of the evening, he should pro pose the next, allowing Foreign Corn to be ground for the purpose of exportation. The Noble Marquis then moved the Resolution, which has been already before the. Public, authoiizing the advance of one million upon corn in warehouse, when the average price of wheat shall be under 60s. per quarter. Mr. CPRWEN thought that as a_permanent mea !sure, that of the Noble Lord might be advantageous to the country. It was quite wild to suppose that this country could become an exporting one. Even as a temporary measure, he thought with the Noble Lord, that it could do no harm, and Might be pro. ductive of.much good. If-any number of individuals employed in agriculture, should be thrown out of empleymentoheir labour words( he.wholly lost to the country. The Parliament that passed the Corn Bill had proceeded on the experience-of twenty-five years. He must protest against the opinion that the House was legislating to increase the rents of 4,,he landlords. Should any part _of the country be thrown out of cul tivation, the effects would be ruinous. Mr. LEYCESTER thought it was most unjusti fiable to employ the public money to raise the price of bread against the Public. If the low prices arose from actual redundancy, this measure would do harm by pouring corn into the market. In the event of a bad harvest it would do good ; but there was every prospect of a good one. Mr. HUSKISSON would give his reasons for objecting to this Resolution. He had gathered from his Noble Friend that this was a temporary, and not a permanent measure ~and his objection to it mainly was the time at which it was proposed to be applied. Many of the most distressed farmers were no longer sellers of corn, but buyers to support the poor , of their parishes. This must add to the distress of the'small farmers, until the nett harvest. Every practical sur veyor could tell who was the most distressed farmer by looking at his stack-yard. He was satisfied that this assistance by loan would be an injury to the small farmers. Besides, if it was objectionable to lend money on any one article more than another, it was on the deposit of corn. On the —th of September corn was at 555. and in twenty days more it was at 70s. to 78s. He would agree with his Noble Friend that kiln-dried damaged corn would not be a safe spe culation to lend money on. If we had a good harvest, and well got in, no one would buy this damaged corn if they could get sound. Besides, to lend money on damaged corn, would be an inducement to farmers to damage their good corn. The prices, as between landlord and tenant, were fast adjusting themselves; and be thought they had beater not meddle with a measure which could do no good, and might do a great deal of harm. Sir J. SEBRIG FIT had spoken with many farmers, who could see no benefit to arise from this measure. HE perfectly agreed with his Right Hon. Fri end. Sir J. SHELIA' cornplaibed tbat this measure would enhance the Pour-rates, and consequently do harm. Mr. WHITMORE found himself obliged to thresh eat his . cora. a once, and mi d i t w =e dge, or it w ould turn niust4. His ne i g hbours were obliged to du t he same, ntherefore this measure would do'no goody - ' • Lord CRAVORNII said eels . rows in ,his i"et o f t h e hlitliStcn, for Goa sake, do -inryrz. g out--I•_Let * , .. - . .. • , .... . • . . ' - , . . . .• ' , . . ' - , - ' .. - ... • • • -' - _ ~ . . . . . • - • . . . .. - • .. • . • . . • - . • . . , .-But he coses 444 that the eoseractios s sf the or.: the CotIntl#` : 11111111flat dAst iatiS c 4=Hatax. cOnideied necelar became do market arm notis i ency did prod‘ce dre aiitress. In the . oolitio of taro caplet". Het *e l ks* / duel • bie ealkiest at natural :Wet - Weed , it vim ohlknis *elf - the Pears a Contiectmit vesbout Oseltialf 'took place;ana! withouts ' . .1 0 ( ease; sada* ihst 'smasher of. milers becathe do u bl e d, i l ia ! t h a t o f . ... Ids, was unonestionebly the cause of the great depre- i had already takes; Smiald eablie tharamibigilo' begets: romaine / esdomn-l e there-mast be a losing . bidets in the value of agricultural prod ice. He ' sell at a redur,ed: e k . —,. - ~• -0 1 ' competition •nolont the' . fwm-e-. It was thereforst • meld never consent to abandon the good to be dr.! Sir .I. NEW T thought the sods. proposed by conceived that • if' additional • pu rc h asers . w eld, b e , - ived from the Right Hon. Gentleman's measure, for i the Weber . foe Coyest), *mild not be reaps:alai to createJ,it would countevaet the disposition to inundate,: he sake of any little, petty, and narrow plan,,which 1 the numerous Petitioners before the House : - h had. the market, He must here observe, that it woe by. ere camas came t he pike of corn." . GILBERT could not agree to tilt proposition of the • .... ; . , • , . • - . ... . . aa lien.... considered ',seesa's became the market was net , i 1$ dleleot a nattltat state!' %deed, it was obvious that . lithe - tbst nuMber of. sellers became doubled, - While that of . I thirflothitelo' boyetr.rentained esdama-y e t h eremestto a l os i ng . ;•••• -01 ' • ceotopetititm •elleer• the fames It was therefore • k. proposed by conceived that ' if' additional • purchasers could 'be • - Mt reepecefol to created,il would monteraet the disposition to inundate,: Rouse.' It had the market. He must here observe, that it woe by. jeer should be no Clair delscription of the present measure, .., . 1 I _ . to car that it Merely •proposed to raisethe-priee •' a t; •'' 9 , espect than the corn : in fact, a convenieat•distribution was all that. Ministers. But was desired. This would be accomplished by giving. . unless he ap- an additional degree of facility to purchases. We ~ really thought that the idea of a law to rai s e•pri c es . agree with the had been long sauce exploded •irt that Houk. Ilse ,11 ad last spoken. present increase would have the effect of Proteennet on. Friend (Mr. the farmer against too early a market, vs whi s t e ag ,. k ributed.the pre- present he was in many cases compelled to resat. i 4 trd no remedy Doubts, however, had been thrown out as to the prac- . isms which met ticil operation of this measure, and he himself had. upon. principle, considered it as laid aside, because it could not he . i• the present low operative. It had been thought that the difficulty was- , 1 HT they might, in not so much in the absence of capital, as in the went ' i the country. He of a confidence that it might be employed to advan- I I' ; , I was adopted by tage. He had last year proposed a monthly allow. 1 4 i avy taxes upon ante, because he thought it would be active in its i• i themselves by operation. The presenr,'undoubtedly, had other ad..' I . . , es for their own vantages, inasmuch as it would give general relief to. . . n inconvenience the extent of its operation. Still he confessed that he nitted ; but he preferred the other plan, as it might prove an invita-- 11 4 ; '1 s—(Hear, hear). non to enterprize. One advantage, however, of the • pay high rents. proposed measure was, that if it did no good, it cor- dby low prices, tainly could do no harm, and this he believed the Ir. Paley thought House would consider as no mean advantage when , .. f the seasons the they were trying an experiment—(A laugh).—lf corn - , , i ealnrahle_ ac the clinnld not rice_ nn nne wniihl %it Wer fmm the 1T10.2. • • il ' I , ''ti • if