Star. — London, England, 1822-07-06 00:00:00

I \ l . t- i • PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. • , lions* OF LORDS, JULY S. tesid,seltilgs met at half-past eleve n, to hear . Appeals. • Nsi , A alt ; Dose or Commie, Resipoodent.-- udg M Was an appeal from the Court of Session, Scodand.-11 of thee Court below affirmed. beim, Appellant ; Respondent.--Thin was an appeal from the Court of Session, Scotland. —Judgment of the Court below affirmed. Futiaerron. Appellant Sin Haw Ihicemen, 13A111. Re spondent.—This was an appeal from the Court of Session, Scot land. Counsel were bard in part.—Further bearing postponed. Caoisrieuno Banc*, Appellant; Mac Lean Respondent. —ln this appeal the Loan Catancamos announced, that he should metre the House for judgment on Monday neat. At a quarter before four o'clock the Loan Cr a bNCELLOU and Faris Bemoan and Suarrassuar appeared Majesty's Commissioners, and brought the Royal Fills Assent to the following :--The Roasted Corn sin, the WA Window s T R e BM epeal Bill, the Scotch Distilleries Bill, the Metropolis Polic, P e Irish Exchequer Offices Bill, the Welsh. Coals Regulation M the Yilmainham Pensions I3W, and the Brighton Har bour Bill. Petitions from Owners and Occupiers of Land against the Corn Importation Laws Amendment Bill were presented by the following Noblemen : Ey the Earl of SwAnnaoss six Petitions from the County of Suffolk. 3 the Earl of Oartorn two Petitions from the County of _y _ _ Del By Lord Enema two Petitions from the County of Oxford, one from that of Northturiberland, one from Bristol, and one from the County of Hereford. By the Marquis of Cason two Petitions from the County of Kent. Bytord Derision three Petitions from the County of Warwiek. By Earl Ferwit.t.tam and the Marquis of B AIL One Petkiis from the Count x y of York, and one from that of Somerset. By Lord CALTHORIM four Petitions from the County of War. wick, and one front that of Norfolk. By Lord Daces one front the City of Hertford.—All these Petitions were laid on the table. Lord DUNDAS presented a Petition from the Protestant Dissenters of the City of York, praying for some alteration in the 111arriage ServicwLaid on the table. Mr. La Mesons-a, from the Secretary of States Mee, pre sented an Abstract of Population Returns, according to the Act of George I.—Laid on the table. fiarl BATHURST presented a Petition, respectably signed tut Owners and Occupiers of Land in the County of Gloucester, against tke Corn Importation Laws Amendment Bill. He s hould have been glad if it had bee n p resented b y any other Noble Lord, as it would have come better from any of their Lord re - *hips, than from one who w as about moving that the House - solve itself into a Committee on the very Bill prayed against. He had ' , however, just received that Petition on entering the House and thought it his duty to present lt.—Read, and laid on thetable. CORN BILL. The Order of the Day having been read, • Earl BATHURST, in rising to move that the House resolve itself into a Committee on the Corn Bill, expressed his concern that the task should have devolved upon him in consequence of the absence and indisposition of his Noble Friend (the Earl of Liverpool). His first wish bad been to postpone the Committee, but as many Noble Peers had come from the country on purpose to attend the debate, he had thought that it would be more convenient for them that he should proceed ; the more so, as he could not say positively what day next week it would be in the power of his Noble Friend to open the subject. In taking that duty upon himself, he should not enter into the origin of the existing agricultural distress, as its causes did not appear to him to affect the pre sent Bill, which was only intended to amend the Oorn Act. It was well known by their Lordships, that, under the provisions of that Act, all importa tion of wheat and other grains was entirely prohibited till the home price of corn rose to 80s. per quarter, when unlimited importation might suddenly take place. Much inconvenience bad been experienced from this quick transition from a total prohibition to unlimited importation, and from the consequent variations of high and low prices. Wheat might also be warehoused whilst the ports were open, and even after they had been closed, it was brought to market, to the great detriment of the British farmer. The object of this Bill was to prevent the effects pro duced by that sudden transition from prohibition to unlimited importation. This could only have been done in two ways; either by regulating the quantity to be imported, or by establishing a scale of duties. The former could never have been done effectually, even had the importation been confined- to one port; the latter was therefore adopted. It was now pro posed that, as soon as the home price should rise to between 70s. and 80s. per quarter, foreign wheat should be imported on paying a duty of 17s. per quarter for the first six weeks, and of 12s. after. Should - the home price rise to 80s. or 85s. the duty on foreign wheat would be 10s. for the first three months, and ss. after ; and, should the price continue to rise, the duty would fall down to Is. or become merely nomi nal. The advantage of this measure would not be confined to the protection given to British farmers against sudden and unlimited importation, but to that afforded him against the irruption of warehoused corn into the market; for warehoused corn would now: be considered: as imported, and could not be brought to market until it had paid the new duties, which would be a considerable check on the opera tions of speculators. It had been said that the duty imposed on foreign wheat would not be sufficient to protect British farmers. But it must be considered that, besides this duty of 17s. per quarter, the expense of freight and insurance amounted to not less thanl2s. besides the usual five per cent. for mercantile profit. —Their Lordships would therefore see that foreign wheat would have to pay 295. per quarter in duty and expense of freight and insurance before it could be brought into the market; this added to its own value, which might he reckoned at 48s. per quarter, would make it impossible for merchants to introduce it into this country at a less price than 77t. which would give British farmers an ample degree of protection. He should probably be told that foreign wheat might be purchased at SS.. per quarter ; but the reason that its price was so low was, that our ports were closed; the moment our market should be thrown open, the price would rise, as it had invariably done on former occasions. Neither was it to be believed that foreign farmers could enter into competition with British farmers. Agricultural distress prevailed on the Con tinent even to a greater degree than in this country. Many cases wete known to have taken place abroad in which mortgagees had gained hold of the property of the mortgagers, from the latter not being able to pay the interest, and preferring to abandon their lands,altogether,to remaining saddledwith a debtwhich . tiey could not discharge. Others who .held lands from the Crown, had also been obliged to surrender them; find the Crown, in consequence, had been un able to obtain any money from them. He understood that some objection was entertained to that part of which was most likely - ti3 be the case the of it, amounting to 650,000 quarters, tt would be the only foreign wheat that could be soldso low. Whei he said that it was, not likely to be sold . SON as 7 he meant that its holders seeing the *l:liee. en* rise would . naturally consider it would not be' , to their advantage to wait till British corn reach 80s. and then to sell their corn -free of duty, rather than to dispose of it at 70s. and to pay a duty of 17s. into the bargain. If their Lordships approved of the first part of the Bill, and conceived the scale of Attica calculated to yield sufficient protection to British far mars, he did not see how they could object to the second, relative to warehoused grain, which was only an extension of the principle of the former. It was true that the present Bill would -be wholly inopera tive at the moment of its being passed, and would yield no immediate relief to that distress, which lair, like the nightmare, on agriculture.. But he conceived that it was advantageous to legislate at a time whorl there was nothing that could tend to inflame the past sions. If their Lordships should wait till the 'price rose nearer to 70s. they would not be abli to discuss the subject with so much temper, and the People would not feel so contented as they now did. As to the idea of semi individuals, that there should be a heaiy duty of SOs operating on all foreign grain, it would be found impracticable in execution, as it would amount to a total prohibition. Under all these circumstances, considering the present measure one calculated to produce much future good, he trusted that their Lordships would not object to going into the Committee. Lord ERSKINE contended, that the object of the authors of this Bill was to repeal to a certain extent the Act which they had brought in themselves for the protection of British forma: in 1815. As theft was no pressing necessity for such a measure, he trusted that his Majesty's Ministers would have no objection to postpone its completion until the next Session. He then took a view of the flourishing con dition of agriculture during the war. When peace came, the markets bad grown lower and lower, and had fallen down to nothing, because the Government was no longer in the field. It was on that account that his Majesty's Ministers had passed the Corn Act, which it was attempted to repeal -by the present Bill; a Bill to which the Noble Earl might justly apply the name of nightmare, for it had been debated night after night in the House of Commons ; but it was is nightmare which, unlike all others, continued after people were awake, for the incubus lay on the minds of the agriculturists, morning, noon, and night. He con sidered his Maiesty's Ministers entitled to high praise for having poised the Corn Act as they had done, notwithstanding the violence displayed by the people on that occasion ; for though friendly to the princi ple of alree trade, he conceived that that principle could only be brought into operatioa when the coun try was in a natural state, which was not thg case during a war of liberation, thrown upon us by ne cessity. The Noble Earl had admitted that corn might be purchased abroad at sSs.—how then could a duty of 17s. which would make the price of a quarter of foreign grain only 525. yield su ffi cient protection to British - farmers ? The Noble Lord then went into the history of the proceedings of the House of Commons and of its Committees, the Reports of which had laid the foundation for the present measure. He wished that, instead of lowering the protecting price, it should have been raised above 809. dr that such a duty should have been laid as would have proved effectual. When there were more than 800 Petitions on their Lordships' table' against this Bill, for what purpose was the public mind agitated by an attempt to legislate that which it was admitted must be at present totally inoperative? Such a measure ought not to pass, unless a proportionate reduction should have taken place in the taxes of all kinds which agriculturists had to pay to the State and to the poor. Could the Noble Earl believe, that if foreign corn should be imported at 525. the British farmer should be protected in raising his corn and bringing k to market ? Speculators would not be so easily checked as the Noble Earl seemed to imagine. They would cut his throat for one half per cent. more. But their Lordships were told, that in order to remedy agri cultural distress, it was only necessary to threw the poor lands out of cultivation! The landholder should reply, " I don't see the use of all this taxation, it must be reduced, it will be only throwing the Three per Cents. out of interest." Suppose the poor lands should be thrown out of cultivation, what would be come of their proprietors? What farmers asked was a remunerating price, and before the passing of such a Bill as the present, burdens must be equalized ; manufactures, which brought so many poor into a parish, and the large buildings for which were not ' charged mere than as many barns, must pay in a more equal proportion. Had there beep an)' Petitions in favour of this Bill ? Its professed object was the re lief of those who were deemed not to have been suf ficiently so by the Act of 1815, and yet it was a mea sure which its authors admitted they would be afraid of passing, if it were not to be totally inoperative at this moment ! They had no right to pass new laws to affect agriculture, without first lightening its bur dens. But it would be said, surely this Bill cannot be so bad, for it has passed the Commons by a very large majority, and the Commons abound with Re presentatives of the landed interest. It happened sometimes, however, that men seemed to have for gotten the opinions which they had expressed abroad, when once they came into that House ; and, indeed, " There are more things in Ileav'n or earth, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." —The Noble Earl then recapitulated his arguments against the Bill, and moved that it be committed this day three months. Lord DACRE conceived that nothing could possi bly yield immediate relief to agriculture; and there fore regretted that an attempt should be made to le sislate in a manner injurious to agriculturists at the very moment when nothing could be done Available to them. At Dantzic corn now sold' at 82s. or 3,35. the expense of conveyance ,and tonnage 'was pia' Might he mamianybeponeificntsialw.hicFhroum•oidthdereinqadetairlieesewlashe hiaaadmmaadre:sy was not satisfied that superabundanie of produce was theAhief cause, or any cause of agricultural distress. ,The number, of inclosures, which had been mentioned' as a proof of over-productions was only 18A0, corn prising of Th i s and 1-14th more produce than in 1800. But then cultivation, forined the increase of population had been so great as to keep More than pace with that of production. before the next Session it should be found that se.per abundance of produce was not the c ause of awe i al tural distress, the House would bays t o legislate n a 'very different manner from what it was now called upon to do. It was not, therefore, too much to ask for delay, When there was not one agriculturist in the country who was not ready to petition their Lord ships not to give him that relief which they were now preparing and professing to afford him. The Earl of HARROWBY maintained that the only points to be ascertained were, whether their Lordships ought to legislate now, and whether the I p f re t se he n y t was were te wait such measureatill p oss ible e s h : a n a l d s e p a a s e s ' ever a lL th ss shadow of cause of the present distresi had been as certained, they would not satisfy the expectations of the country, which, if it did not look for immediate relief, at least expected from the wisdom of Parlia ment that a prospective remedy should be provided for those evils which experience had shewn to exist. The agriculture of the country had now for three years and a half enjoyed a complete monopoly of its own market, and yet there had been a continual low ering of prices. This he was disposed to attribute to the quantity of corn imported at the beginning of 1819, which being followed by three abundant -har vests, occasioned a heavy weight on the market, which had since continued to be felt. The object of the present measure was to make it impossible that the market should again be brought down on a sud den by unlimited importation. He believed, from the change which had taken place in the currency, that a protecting price of 70s. would now be quite ' equal to that of 80s. in 1815. As to the warehoused corn, its owners would take care not to sell it so low as to make the average price fall below that at which importation was allowed ' and the effect of the whole would be that the price of corn would no longer be subject to great and sudden variations, whilst the duty paid on importation after British wheat had reached 80s. was a protection which the grower had not en joyed before. The fall in prices could not fairly be attributed to the amount of taxation, for it had been experienced to the same extent in t hose part! of the Continent, particularly in Switzerland, where taxa tion was almost unknown * and it was at the time when our taxes were heaviest, that prices were also highest. The present law would prevent the recur rence of the effect produced by unlimited importa tion in 1819 on the market, and would place the country in a more advantageous situation than that in which it now stood. He therefore trusted their Lordships would allow the Bill togo into a Committee. The Earl of C A RNA R VON thought it desirable to ascertain what was the minimum of protection which would suffice to sustain the agricultural interest, as he was convinced that the country could ndt flourish long if the prices of agricultural produce were forced much above those obtained in other markets of Eu rope. Such a measure would prove fatal to our com merce and manufactures, would destroy the home market, and occasion incalculable distress. Before they proceeded to legislate on this subject for future generations, they ought to be well informed of the causes of the present distress, and he thought they could never have less data to act upon than they had at present. He was of opinion that much of the ex isting distress grew out of the alteration which had taken place in the currency of the country. This subject, however, he did not mean to press on the House at that moment. He could not persuade him-' self that any Noble Lord amid think that 80s. or even 70s. the quarter, could continue permanently the price of wheat in this country. A higher price than 60s. could not be reckoned upon. They had no data on which 'they could legislate prospectively, and therefore he put it to their Lordships whether k would not be wise to avoid coming to any decision at pre seat? Upon these grounds he should vote for the Amendment of the Noble Lord. Lord REDESDALE' remarked on the assertion that this was the fittest time for legislating on the subject, because no clamour had been excited. It ought to be remembered that the agricultural body, with whom much of the labour of the country was connected, was at present in a very agitated state, and therefore he did not see that advantage now offered with respect to time, of which some Noble Lords had spoken. He objected to the present mea sure, as it had a tendency to encourage gambling speculations fn corn; and thus to produce fluctuations in the price which it was the interest of the country should not be experienced. At present there was a great depression, not only in the price of corn, but in that of sheep, cattle of all sorts, and every de scription of agricultural produce. The farmer was distressed not merely because of the money price of corn, but because he could net get those articles of which he stood in need in the way of barter for that , portion of produce which would formerly suffice to purchase them. If the burdens whi c h the f armer I had now to pay absorbed two bushels of wheat,where they formerly called for one, •it could easil, be un derstood how the agriculturist was distressed. A si milar pressure was felt on the Continent. The far mers there were in an artificial state, as well as the farmers of this country. It was not to be expected that the prices would continue what they were now, when things had got into a more settled state. He therefore was unwilling, under such circumstances, to pass a Bill like that now before their Lordships.— This measure he objected to, as one which was to. have no regular system for its foundation, but was to depend on averages and returns from time to time.' " weasel* of this eat was saw to abuse. that abuse had occurred uuderthis system. a species of gambling like that of 'Chow.. 'here the Bulb and the Bean endeavourAfee depress the price of Stock, according to their interests. But those who went there, ,soot who knew how to counteract their effecter agricultural body vat. in sack,* sitoAtiog were unable to opposethe schemes of than ns whose interests were o d to &gram ., aportation of foreign fine ET to ink yids English ilour.was sometimes useful. fie should pro. fir a constant Ensiled inNaKtfitic 4 of ,ffruin , "lbjer2 to a proper sole Of duxes , .t° th e plea now 21P Rested to guard against the evils of,a scarcity. - 9 1 . 'be thought wools be preferable to exeluding (we rain altogether, till the price of wheat rope to 80 2 . the quarter, and .then, actin on a new system founded on the lower price of 70s. He wished the paining er 'this Bill to be postponed till further informatics. should have been obtained. He could see no Ajax in passing the Bill in the.resent &salon. as %mien the price of corn rose to 80s. of which there was ap prospect, it could have no effect on the wheat se x in warehouse. He offered some comments on then ;warehousing system, and concluded by giving hi s opposition to the Bill. Iford ELLEN BOROUGH considered the amts. ment opposed to this Bill applied to it but as a per. sent measure. The fact was, it ought not to be ! considered, as they were legislating to remedy a pre. t evil growing out of the existing law., He hoped that they would allow the Bill to pass, not as a per. manent measure, but as one to carry us through pre sent difficulties till we got to a state of things which would admit the passing of a law more permanent in its character. Earl DARNLEY objected to the frequent inter ference with those interests which were the subject this Bill. Their Lordships had wisely declined institute an inquiry in the course of the present Ses sion; but the House of Commons had come to a dif ferent resolution, and this Bill was the consequence of the inquiry they had set on font. He was of or nion the measure would be of no avail. It was, ho ever, unnecessary to enter upon this subject new, unless some extraordinary act of PROVIDENCE sheulr remove from our fields the plentiful harvest wit which they were at present loaded, the price of grai could not rise to 60s. or at all events to 70s. felt it to be his duty to vote against the Bill. The Earl of MORLEY, considering the uncer tainty which always attached to the produce of soil, could not feel as certain as the Noble Earl did, who had just *sat down, that the price of wheat woul" net rise to 80s. before the next meeting of Parliarnem He thought this Bill a desirable measure of prec; tion, and one that would be agreeable to the agrici turkt. They all remembered that last September price of wheat had suddenly risen to 705.• Circus. stances might occur to cause a still greater advance, against the consequences of which it was at all events desirable to guard. He should vote in favour of '" Bill ng into a Committee.—The House divided contents 37 Not-contents - 19 Majority in favour of going into the Committee —ln When strangers were re-admitted, the House in a Committee on the Bill. The Earl of DARLINGTON expressed regret the thin state of the House, on the discussion of important a measure. It had caused great alai. among the ag riculturists , and with the view he took of it, he felt it to be his duty to oppose the measure on every occasion. The clauses were then agreed to without amen(' ment, the Report was received, and the Bill ord to be read a third time on Monday, the Lords to summoned.—Adjourned till Monday. HOUSE OF COMMON& The Sreacia took the Chair at half-past three, and the Home was then summoned by the Deputy Usher of the Black Rod to attend the House of Peers, for the purpose of hearing the Royal Assent given to certain Bills. HIGHGATE CHAPEL BILL. Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a Petition from the Inha bitants of Ftnchley and Hornsey against the Highgate Mal Bill. He deprecated the practice of bringing in the same twice in the same Session. Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that as the Bill, although private one, was of considerable public interest, be trusted his Honourable Friend who introduced the measure would bring it en at an early period of the evening, before the H. was in a state to give it the consideration which its importance deserved. Mr. BYNG said, that when the Order of the Day for tt eond reading of the Bill came on, he should proceed to more The Petition was laid upon the table. Mr. CALVERT presented a similar Petition from Kentish Town.—Ordered to lie upon the table. Mr. BYNG then moved the second reading of Highgate Chapel Bill. Mr. HUME opposed it, as being objectionabl its nature, and calculated to prejudice a case pending before the High Court of Chancery. had been declared by the Attorney-General, in place in that House, and he was surprised that those who originated the Bill, should afterwards think proceeding with it. He , moved that it be read cond time that day six months. Mr. Alderman WOOD took the same view of character of the Bill. and supported the amendmi Sir J. GRAHAM condemned the conduct of who opposed the Bill. Towards him personally had behaved with a degree of scurrility which trusted his character was far above. He felt them be beneath his notice, and he despised them. Amon; other calumnies, they had accused him of motiv( pecuniary gain. To this he would reply, that he never received a farthing for his professional labor since he had been in Parliament. He contended the Bill was a just measure, and one which ougl be supported. Sir ROBERT WILSON wished the Hon. Baronet to state the reason why the inhabitants of High; if they wanted a Chapel, did not proceed to one somewhere else? Sir J. GRAHAM did not pretend to be acquaii with the secrets and the motives of the parties. ,answer, however, appeared obvious; namely, they considered themselves to have a right to existing Chapel. Mr. Alderman HEYGATE said, that without Terence to the personalities of any of the parties, House, in his opinion, ought not to interfere with [Arty willed by Sir Roger Cholmeley, to convert any other purpose than that which he contemplated. Sir M. CHOLMELEY made a few observations favour of the Bill. Mr. BROUGHAM said, that. his judgmest 1111■Nift. • the Bill, which altoe;e4wiletlAto be brooc:jtra... and be an eviretigraSicf E v ery area: into the market, ell ,psying Qt., Ts. per taw •11.0 imported for tit' • ' I, 'was known it cilia shoul regal Abe Rrice 1 wlic ~ if the props:Nell cif : 7a. *ere It led to al But must be reCollecled, eh*: if,OrNsh wheat: it . fiviial4 be found this *e : 11 itt nor titer- a ii e y, vi s hould rise to 130 s. as the Act now aOseloApe whole of kits *ould not exceed 5.55. that feetlige raise or del 'the warehoused grain beg in & beett: imPeTted unde r cola would rise Me mcgoent der ports were opined I pecaliar inl that Act, and on the faith of Parliament, must come but speculators would take care.not to let k llama w t h ose into the market free of duty. 01 the present_ Bill, on so high as to approach the protecting price in this B ut t h e ag the contrary, it would have to pay the dety, and .if it country. He implored the Noble Earl to abstain from that they v should come into the market at 70i: per quarter; legislatri7 on the7b subject at_pLese i n am t. 6 N u e t ly m ea o r re , ti e me ase , .. . ____ ..._.... 5a...1. to he the case with the whole circumstances, and even iccident, Might elucidate ,sPecTitesn:i....rhishtpo"fi 1 1 / 11 Hi o. Ca a tit et of a. isles its BC R Ewa wii dt Ca re. nu 1:t To thi Mak as ed Kit 9 15.• W l Pip is. er. so se. ed : • per- . ore. ich ient an; ter. tof f n to . 1 ses- dif- ince opi. n ow- 1 for •uld 1 with rain He i cer. the did, mid lent. cats- icul- r the urn- ince, Pent: • f the ed: .1 .j was et at s 7f so larm e took sure ten& lered o be levee ad to Royal • lapel e lugh a cl that • ld net House trance the se- tree it. ;mash of the We in now This in his those nk of a no of the ment. those r they ch he em to !angst res of e had bours I that ;ht to g a srou The , :bl the tintedbuild that o iut te- m , the h pro- •t it to hoed. ions ill It had