Star. — London, England, 1817-06-20 00:00:00

. t „ • I • • - • one case, where a man with twelve children, being remonstrated with for sttstaining a snit, involving him in great expense, to the injury of his chi:dr n, replied, that when he began the litigation he was a singl►. man and had no children—(Near, hear, and a hash). He was glad to find that his Honourable Friend had obtained the great legal assistance in drawing the Bill which he had stat4d, and had no doubt its adoption by tie House would tend to re medy a very serious ev il. Mr. LOCKFIA ft.T fully agreed in the sentiments of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and should support the a: nion. Leave was then given to bring in the Bill. A ItH MTh. Mr. LOC KHA RT rnse to move for leave to hring, in a Bill for the regulation of Costs upon Arrests for Small Debts. He %coal.' state to the House one or two insianc..s of excessive costs on arrests for small drbti, which would conv:nce the H•tuse of the neces sity cf the m2asure proposed. He then read the various items of a hill of costs, amoutving to d2l. Bs. on a debt for rent of 13s. —Vicar, hear). The goods sold under the distress for set. 1.55. ott4, and thus the landlord lost his claim, and the nn 1r renailt was thrown out of his house to seek a sheltcr c'sr where. Under arch circumstances as these, which were of daily occurrence, he thought there could be no objection to fixing a schedule of costs upon bawl debts, !searing a proportion to their amount, to which the pear and all the parties interested reter to ps ,, tect themselves from illipOSilintl and oppression. He conettjed by moving for leave to bring in a 13ill .! to regulate the expensi:s in distresses tor small debts. The motion was agreed to, and a Committee at,: poiated to bring 111 a Bill. :own.: Irk' IRELAND. Sir JOHN NEWPORT rose to submit his Motion for an Address on the condition of Ireland. He tati sorry to perceive, from the thinness of the House, that the interests of that country were not regarded v4th that attention which they merited. He was not about to ask for any immediate measure of relief for the lamentable situation of that part of the United En ire. All he propoied to himself was that a pledge should now be given on the part of the Mem b?rr of that House and of Governmeut, to turn their attention to the subject during the prorogation of Paz. liament —( Hear, hear.) He concluded y moving— " MIA sat bumble Address be presented to the Prince Regent, requ:ating that an investigation may he made into the state and contrition of Ireland, during the prorogation Parliament, so as to enable the House . at the opening of neat Session to adopt such measures may best primot: and secure the essential intetesni of both countries, and consolidate the strength and power of the United Empire." S.r G. II ILL opposed the Motion. He contended l that Ireland liad been a et:ma:int object of legislativel and executive care, and there vat. no good purpose to be answered by the Motion; he should consequently move ic that the other orders of the slay be now read." ; Sir N. COLTHURST objezted to the Motion, bee use it implied a want of confidence in the Go. vt r meet, a or, ling in which he did not participate. S 7 JOHN NEWPORT shortly replied, and the House divided.—For the A.tormiment, tia; against i 10; majority against the Address, 49. Th.! Bin on the Irish Election Laws went through aCo :imam% A division took place on the omission of h clause allo * Co instl to Caedidates.—Noes, 27; Ayes, 9; Majoiity fur the clause, 18. v.ttious oih:r Orders of the Day were dis po.ed of, and the House adjourned at Ten o'Clock. HOUSE OF LORI'S. The Clerks Fors Regal ion Ball was brought up front the Commons by Sir AT4 es GI4.A and others, and road thee first time, as were also a few Private The Bills upon the table were torwuded in theft respective stages. had GREY presented ;'Petition from the Manatee and other persons concerned In certain Saving Banks of the City or Bristol, against particular clauses in the :laving Banks Bill now before their Lordships. One of the clauses prayed against by the Petitioners, appeared to be that waicia enacted the appro priation of the monies; and a sentiment seemed to be rather generally entertained, that the subject in quigitiem was ligt one for an advantageous legislative interfereuce.-1 he Petition W2ll Laid upon the table. SUSPENSION OF THE HABEAS CORPUS AC I% The Order of the Dsy upon which their Lordships were summoned, which respected the tbird reading of the Suspension Continuance Bill, being read, Viscount SIDMOUTH mo►ed, that the Bill be now read the third time. Earl SPENCER inquired what period was pro posed for the duration of the Bill? Viscount stDmourm said, that the blank was filled in the printed Bill, limiting its duration to six weeks after the commencement Of the next Session of Parliament. The question was then put; on which— The nuke of BEDFORD rose. He could not let this last stage of the Bill pan without recording his suing protest against it. He contended that no ne-' celsity whatever existed for continuing a measure which involved a dangerous violation of the Consti tution, and an infraction of the personal rights and liberties of Englishmen. Whatever grounds there might appear for the measure in the first instance; certainly none existed for it in the present instance. From the very :hewing and tenor of the Report itself he was led to this conclusion, to parts of which the Noble Duke referred in illustration of his position.— Siich a continuance of the Suspension of the best bulwark of the British Constitution, for the time, he thought, in a manner suspended the very existence of toe Constitotioe .: He deprecated the system adopted by Ministers in the present situation of the country, as tending rather to influence and aggravate, than to remedy or relieve, the dartgerous evils which existed, --a system which he could not call less tban One of espinage, seemed to be too much inclined to. He well nmerebered, while in the Government of Ire• land, how much the Secretary's Office was arraigned by.the communications of informers and spits ; and, were their suggestions folloued, he verily believed that Ireland must have been half deluged with blood. He begged leave to call the attention of their Lord. ships to a fact, perhaps not generally known—A person who had written a sort of parody, or creed, about twenty-five years ago at Nottingham, and who bad Since been a member of the diaasraik fraternity of Cook, Ureter, and Co. bad, or caused the same to be lately printed at Norwich and sent up to town.— This was mentioned to sbew what sort of persons these -men sere; and, to bear out his astonishment that any thing should be rested on the eviderwe of such nien, be Yarned again to t4Rsport, and especi.dly to tl.e concluding points, where is was truly and candidly submitted. that the great body of the people were loyal and well disposed ; and after such an admis sion. he at least felt much surprised that such an , obnoxious measure as that in question should be proposed. The Earl of WESTMORLAND defended, not only the pertietilar measure under consideration, but the` general conduct of his Majesty's Government,' ever shift the last paciScation, and with respect to the present momentous situation of the country. The measure in qoestion, instead of being hostile to, he contended, would uperate for the security—nay, pre servation, of the British Constitution. The great body of the People, as well as large Majorities of both Houses of Parliament, decidedly approved of the line of conduct pursued by his fstije.ty's Mini vers. They had, since the Peace, reduced the Esta blishments to the very lowest pitch—and reduced !he , Public Expenditure, and consequent Taxation, in that period, beyond any former exatnple. They could not (as they appeared to be blamed for) force' I C nnmercial 'nestles on all the Nations of Europe. How entail they, AS it's known Deliverers, appear in the eyes at these Nations, if they attempted to do so ? At this part& the Nook Lord's speech, - The Earl of DONOUGHNIdItIi rose to order, conceiving the Noble Earl to be going into matter entirely it relevant to the questign order consideration. The . Earl of WESTMORLA , I 1) expressed his conviction ut the necessity of the dol. The Duke-ot BEDFORD ohs:. ved, that the cir cumstance he had allUded to h.. slid not take from any Newspaper report, but had it trom All authority which he respected, and entertained no doubt of the fact. Viscount SIDMOUTII tould assure their Lord-, ships, lie had never heard of such a circumstance before, until he heard it from the Noble Duke thin evening. The Earl of DONOLTGH MORE opposed the Bill, and went into it detailed examination of the, Report, animadverting thereon as he proceeded, with a view to illustrate his opinion, that no necessity existed whatever for the measure now before the House. In the course of his speech, he enforced and expatiated upon the leading points urged by the Noble Duke, and particularly in that which referred to the situa tion of Ireland. He contended that the Speech of the Noble Earl was no answer to that of his Noble Friend. He, indeed, endeavoured, but ineffatually, to pick holes in that speech. He' should himself. it present at the time, have even opposed the first Sus pension Bill ; but its proposed continuance he could not think of countenancing for a minuet. Ministers had brought the whole strength of their case against• a person lately tried before a public tribunal, and him, with all the advantages they possessed, they were unable to convict—and they gave up the ease wins' the other persons accused. Corpling this with their own admission of the general loyalty and Rood disposition of the English people, fie was asto nished et the proposition of such a measure. With respect to their vaunted triumphs, he might contend that eventually it was over Eugland itself they triumphed, and still more so over the general CaUlll or Liberty ! With respect to the employment of spies and informers, and resting measures of vital importance upon their information, he thought ex actly with his Noble .Friend who opened the debate and with respect to the case of Ireland, though it was nut to be oppressed by the present measure, still a law was proposed for it, through which its natives m:ght be transported without a trial by Jury. In the course of the latter part of his speech, the Noble Lord animadverted upon the promotion, and what he deemed the too great encouragement given to a person who had been implicated in the Irish Rebel lion, 'and had afterwards turned an approver and in former. This person was afterwards much befriend ed and promoted by his Majesty's Government, and, as at was said, was appointed to be even the repre sentative of his Majesty in a particular place. The Earl of LIMERICK rose, chiefly in refe rence to what the last Noble Speaker had said, re-, specting the favour shewn to II certain person. That Gentleman, Ile (Lord Limerick) observed, had ren dered the most essential and important services to his country, as was well known to a Noble Marquis :hen at the head of the Irish Government, and ,a Noble Earl now high in office, who acted as his Secretary. Born a Gentleman of fortune and good talents, he became embarrassed, and unhappily lent an ear to the delusions of the Chiefs of the rebellious conspi racy in England. But soon finding out that their real objects were massacre, confiscation, and separation from England, and the establishment of a Jacobin Republic, he repeated of his conduct, and made amends, by making discoveries of the greatest im portance, which all turned out to bare been well toundesl. All this be did without fee. without pro mise, or expectation of reward. He saved his coun try to England, and from the fangs of a sanguinary . and atrocious conspiracy—(Hear, hear).—He de emed well of the country, and Government did well in protecting him. While afterwards employed at Lisbon, he conducted himself with the greatest propriety. With respect to a recent promotion of that Gentleman, he believed it tow be nothing like a Representative of his Majesty, but as a Resident at a : s pecies of Vice-Court, and ,in an insular pos session —(Near, Hear). The Earl of ESSEX observed, that the species of persons who were regarded by himself and bib Noble Friends with so much reprobation, cane nearer to the denomination of , 6 blood men," as Castle and Oliver y and men of a different description 'from the person alluded to by the Noble Earl. His Lordship adverted to a circumstance of 'cruel aggravation on the part of Oliver, who wished a wite to persuade her husband to attend at a certain place, where if he had gone, be would have become Oliver's victim. The Marquis of CAMDEN stated the case as far as within his knowledge or recollection, of the Gen ' *man (Mr. Reynolds) alluded to by two Noble Earls, which went fully to . corroborate the statement of the Earl of Limerick. That Ginitleman made his communicatien at the Castle of Dublin, perfectly vo luntarily and self-moved, and seemed to be, actuated solely by contrition and repentance from having en gaged with -a set of men whose objects was so san guinary, traitorous, and detestable. His discoveries were of the highest importance ; and upon his evi dence, duly corroborated, the principalki%thAt [OA . - lion were convicted, and by that means a.c gesmest sirs ices rendered to the Emp're. He let it his duly ir. iest.ce tr. that Gentleman to .stake this general saverrent. While upon Iris feet, he begged to ex press his hearty corcurrerce in the Bill now before theit Lordships, which, in leis conviction, the state of the country rendered necessary. The Earl of DONOUGHMORE thought Mr. Reynolds had been put too forward to society by br ing appointed a Grand Juror, Btc. Viscount SIDMOUTH begged to say a few words respecting the much talked of cities of Castle and Oliver. They were asserted to be spies and infor mers, employed as such by his Majesty's Govern. ment. In point of tact, Castle never was a spy ; and in the latter character he voluntarily offered himself, and for the first time, in fee or six weeks after the 241 of December. With respect to Oliver, he had beer employed by Government Ica the purpose of averting dangerous combirations, which at the time began to wear a formidable appearance. Some Noble Lords, he believed, formed and procounc.e.l their opt. coons upon what they saw in Newspapers. He was ' convinced their Lordships, Mita they should receive accurate information as to these facts, would be in duced to alter their opinions in many material re. spects ; and he would only ask of their Lordships, in mere justice, to suspend opinions now formed from loose authorities, until other information Amid be before the Public, and until then he thought all com mentaries upon the case must be unjust. Lord ST. JOHN said, that amid the discussions concerning o.iver and Castle, the question of the Bill , before the House remained untouched. He could not give •-a Went vote upon such a measure. He could not furnish any new argument on the subject, but he could not sutler it to be discussed wittiotst entering I his solemn protest against a Bill as unnecessary, as it was hostile to the Constitution. He would have expected that after the repeated expression of the pub. tic feeling upon the question, anti otter the signal re sult of the late trial, Ministers could never have thought of proposing a renewal of the Suspension Bill. He thought they °tight rather h.tve come down to the House clothed in sackcloth and ashes, acknow ledging that the Bill which they had obtained at the commencement of the Session was totally unnecessary, and that the grounds upon which the first, as weil the second report WAS drawn up, were entirely false. He thought, in a word, that they would have aban doned the measure ; but instead of doing so, they ;vent on, as if by some fatal and delusive power, they were compelled to go on—like Macbeth. They could not stop--they must proceed until they gave a deadly blow to the Constinition—(ilear, hear, hear)—The present Act went further even taan the last Act ; for the povrer which was now claimed was unlimited. The operation of the former Act was extended to a certain determined day; but the operation of the pre sent Act was unbounded. It was to exist until six weeks after the commencement of the next Session of Parliament ; but the day of that commencement was entirely at the discretion of Ministers, who had the controul over the meeting of Parliament—not this House not the other House. No, the Ministers themselves! The date, therefore, of the expiration of the present Act could be prolonged to an ex cessive and a grievous distance—(Heor, (.ear).— ; The Noble Lord then adverted to the several argu ments in favour of the measure. It was said that a plot existed. If this statement depended on tee testi mony of Castles and Oliver, the Noble Lords opposite must admit, thet•they suspended the liberties of Eng land upon evidence which their OWII feelings must persuade thim to be false and incredible. It, indeed, a plot really existed, better they should follow the example of Denm irk at once, and surrender aU their liberties to the Crown, than to tell the people they are free, and have a right from birth to freedom, and yet deprive them of tteeir liberties.—(Hose, hear.) — How could the present Bill cure the distresses of the people ? That was a question which he never heard answered. He would retract all he had said upon this subject if any of the Noble Lords opposite had the ingenuity to chew him how the machinery of this Bill could be brought to bear upon the distresses of the country. He thought it extremely unjust that so much credit should be given to the evidence of spies and informers. If some few men were instigated to deeds of violence, was that a reason that the liberties of every Englishman should be suspended ? (Hear.) Lord SOMERS supported the Bill, and defended the right of Government to employ spies. He could not allow, because there was a character of absurdity belonging to the late conspiracies, that therefore their consequences were not to be feared. What, in fact, had really ensued ? Had not the result of those plots' been a dangerous insurrection ? An insurrection little• short of rebellion, and only short of rebellion in con. • sequence of the vigilance of Government. Observ ing all those things, (amid they be justified iu disre garding their tendency? There were sutlicientgrounds, in his judgment, In call for such a measure al the pie• sent. There was the Repos tof the first Committee, which contained ample reasons for the Bill then brought • in. They had now the Report of another Committee, and which Report, Ise thought, was highly honourable to the Committee. Called upon, es they were, to investigate m a tters of such conse quence, and finding adequate evidence to induce them to recomn end the re-adoption el the former measure, yet, at the same time, they candidly and fairly ad mitted that the Government had been obliged, as all Governments were, to employ persona for the pur poseur discovering themachinationsut theconspirators. It appeared also,. those persons had gone beyond the ought to have confined them line within which they selves. Did the.Conamittee attempt to conceal that tact ? No. Most honourably they stated it in their Report to their Lordships. But were they from thence.to argue, that because a pat t of the evidence submitted to the Committee was of that description, they had no grounds for the conclusion to wiliest they ultimately came ? Could it be supposed, that a Com mittee, so respectably composed, would, under such circumstances, have recommended it, as essential to tne good of the country, that additiottal powers should be granted to the Government ? And afte r all, what• was the proposed suspension ? Only fur a short time. But the Noble Lord who spoke last, said that the calling of, Parliament togeth er d e p e nd e d merely upon the will of Ministers, and that, there fore, the duration of the law would be as long as - they thought proper. Good GOD ! could such an Argument be seriously urged ? ( Thar, hear.) — It might depend vpun , the will of Ministers whethet 6e CA11.41 a Wed. ut , lster, bat beyond thst,wlytt power had they?* (,q,ar, :Irv.) Could noi-,ters do without the Pato:mon for any length of time ? He really nevtr !!e. •.1 weak an argument. How ftr could of the Habeas Corpus Aet b^ called N z the Constitution ? He heard it said in cervett.,77..,., among a certain class of persons, that :%e passed there would be .an end of the Cor the liberties of every man in the kingdom tt•otild at the mercy of INlittisterv. WAsth,tt from the Opposition Peoches, ? kle "'mild t.• was it the fact—( Renev.ed cties He understood the cheerieg of :he Nellie he would still affirm it %vat "-It the f mt. It i: c 0 ,4,1 be supposed that the Nott:e 114 rr Lord, from motives of pi•••.ltertnionr”- - iii: c..•• : •‘• an individual, and pot litto in t pr. for : n against the State, there, I e ionritted, he n .• • .• .7 . under the power conterred te,t tit it Act—r, ..., 1. ,e; on the Or/mut:on).— Bili, 2! I 6.2 saint: [lit', . ; such a thing be imagined ! If tote po•on: P., .t e o. t lan absolute repeal of tile I ow oi: 11.0,. 0s e orr ~.. 0 .., Mead of A ternpteary saspensioa, there might p• ssifO4 be sense temptation to induce 4 MalliStet so to deo—. But WAS II lii Illy to happen, while the power eboet to be granted would he eaercoed 'older the respoesi belity that now attached to Mitiisters i He firm:a believed that the Suspension was net, eti the shelve,: degree, liable to produce the deptivatitai et lit,erty to any subject in this country, who!' ought to he preserved, Or could be preserved, without pl , judite to the general liberty of all—(ilear, h.ar, he,:rj.—. , The Noble Lord who preceded nim, mid ti.n,.: ethers, on the present and former eccAsions, had tattoo! about conciliating the people. Conciliation, AI tar as it was just and proper, he should be ready to adopt. But he would not humour the peniA r, by grant:ng who ever they might lie instigated to ask. It was meet absurd to do so. lot every thing he done, the. volt be done, and let the people ;:t`P, that so notch was done ; but go Ito eirther, flattery was mist! it-7. ous to every man— (I-Par) —Who among theneeloo could lay hit hand upon tiO hear' ; and say lie eiri! I withstand flattery ? He believed no one ; and it ite le with the advantages ct edneatien, and the p‘ver of ratlection derivca from editeattoo, could net do se, we ll ; was so.be expected from the p eple, who leaf noel• of those advantages ? - Ht2IIIOUT them, said the Noble Lord, and you will dertroy thefts. Exocete• - inns would be raised, which never could :le sati-F.e t. We had a good Constitution ; such m one as existed in no other saitietry in the teurld ; and 1.. e d'd net think it coed,/ la dertreeed by six er eight moe-O , s suspension et o c Habeas Cerpiis Alt. Se bleield, therefore, vow: for the TIM d Reading ef the Bel— Wear, bar.: The Marquis 'A' Er.x.rst. Fs: began by 6rere;rre that he had net Oe v intty to thit.k that he to•ed he any flattery perplex the underetendine, et- ch in oe ! t o opinion of the Noble Lerd who had lot tp•ikei 7 o. though, from an early acquaintance with hur, letec'i perhaps the Noble Lord had now fergotteu, he et tertained a sincere respect ter his tater:is. his Leo.. ledge, and his integrity. But tie wootst no ; a. . e .,: , , the people of England as the Noble Leo! eto a scribed them; nor would he bele•-ve that it sr is il ti.e power of any man, however excellent hie ch.:et- J ot : great his talents, to flatter them either into r,-7 Or.. 1 donment of their rights, or a belief that th o was I right which was not so sehstantialle. Tee N• _Lord had evi dently referred to some h tog wh”.‘ Ii f been said on the subject of Parliantenooy leJtatii , but he would at least do him the justice to Acknwr ledge, that he had been always adeetse to any vionge in the Constitution of the other House of Parliament. From the first period of . his raising his voice in puto 17c, he had resisted every attempt of that nature, and he should not now have alluded to the subject had e not been with a view of repelleng the attack of thic Noble Lord. On the first slay of the eresent Sessiott he }tad described the new principles of reform, acd the doctrine of universal suffrage, as a gross &Oa• sion, which it had been endeavoured unctircesstglly to practise upon a people for whose understandinps he had too high a respect to suppose them capable if yielding to it. Whenever such principles should gain an ascendancy, revolution would me be merely commenced, it would • be con:plc:et!, and en end be put to all the subsisting forms of our mixed Covet nment, monarchical, aristocratical and reale. He repelled, therefore, as well for the linble berm behind him as for himself, the insinuation that they had humoured the people at Ale reeetines wi:h such notions, or had deluded therm with these idle theorles—(Ther, hear.)—Put he had been iu to= degree divested by these remarks from that moreealm orinsideration of the sobject before their Lordslt :efhieli was 60 eminently due to it s id s po t tance. portant indeed it must appear to his mind, when he Odosidered it to involve not oaly questions of law anal justice, of liberty, and every description of Folic!, but to be in itself a question of pnbhe beam'', rising above file region of Perti, e one where no pasties and no prejlidice should intrude. It ..as in the prt sent oage of this awful question that he desired 3 state hr sentimous respecting it. The previous die cusions upon it hart been able condacted on beta sides; and, indeed, by ei-r. Noble Lord who sanest him, had been conduitted with toff:ter:dent abilito Many new lights had been fuinisce, notch additional information produced, the boundaries, the nature and character ascertained, of ,that danger of whiete these was before no definitior, end reliefs was them' fore alteadiul twin its obseistity—(Near, itar).-.• The I Luse now came to the distamen of this vet tion, with serve distinct informatiort as to the I'm"' tature and cloirecter of the c'ar7ers, and it soot abei to a certain extent. a clear view et tee rp:ratiniv of the Suspension Biii upon_ that danger. Those whe now met the Noble Lords opposite in tl.e errors: epos, this rocaiure, needed no longer to rely eio* lieoe statement or eaglet conjecture; they wee! ei` e to bring fact against lace, and to geapele hanoo . i' hand firm its plinciple and eEects. The Ye' e Lord who last t ,;(1:. W.ill Willing SO c•lictdc. becois.- he saw ro prr,siect of abuse -. but I:e (Marctils Wtit lesti:y; viewed the qiu-,tion 1 , 1 a ter different light.-- In cfc.ens::ing tfis [Treat subject !..e sho-.od frvt re-- - der the 124 i nature Or choract.7ir of the earttr- . r. 7 mischief as it tea; serretirncs called, and eloott: ?nigh or might not be p:evented or cirri-viol lo ". existing latao, ircluding amerg those loco -. •• recent act regarding seditiene asoroldio .••, conOly, he should inquiro whether that d a lie.e o • that peculiar system ut mischief, reel le !... by arty thing ot well as the sae-0o z ; kiseo— , .1 e i