Star. — London, England, 1817-05-16 00:00:00

rite so degrading a punishment. He thought the case asegbr to be further inquired into by the House, and Le should avail himself theretuie of some future up pnrttinity to bring it tinder their notice. It fr. MANNEKS SUTTON wished to give owns explanation; as he hatilkeen misunderstood he thought by the Honourablediartmet. He had not seen the L'arlide furred, end lie therefore only spoke of it from what was said by the . Honourable Member. A copy of it had been sent for; that justice might he done to the public, in the event of its statement turn ing ou: to be that libel which was expected, according to the. acci:unt given of it. The colfeebt had been refused, because the Officer felt he costd,eot giye it; surd if the Officers were nut to be judgek . of a cue of bigamy, for which the man had never' been tried, they surely could try him for absenting himself from his duty, aild for that, and that only, had he bees+ tried—( Hear, hear). Mr. CUR WEN said, the statement in the paper turned uut to be c rrect— (Hear, hear)—and the pa ragraph on which this inquiry had been instituted dii not contain any imputation whatever on Major Pl , Alister—(Hear,hear, hear). Mr. MANNERS SUT (ON observed, that he had already stated that be had not seen the paper, and therefore he. could not cast any imputation upon it; he only stoke of its contents from what had been described in that House. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, he had put the journal in the hands of a Member the evening on ' which be had asked the question, and thought it' might have been handed round, in course, to the Honourable Gentleman to whom he had addresse.f the queition. It was not his intention to impeach - the cnaraeter of the Commanding Officer : his obser vations had been directed against the system of mi. litary torture ; and he should, at a future day, draw the attention of the House to the consideration of the propriety of its infliction, in Cafes analogous to the present. Mr. W. SMITH observed, that if the punishment were for absence from duty, it proceeded on just grounds ; but if the man disappeared to get married, and aft erwards returned to Lis duty, his absence ought not to have been dealt with as it he had been guilty of desertion. As the man could nut have been charged with desertion, it seemed that he had been punished for disobeying his Officer's injunction not to marry. Mr. MANNERS SUTTON explained, that he had never mentioned the word " desertion ;" he had carefully stated what was the fact, that the man hail been uied for abseuting timself from his duty. The conversation here ended. HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION ACT. Mr. PUNSON BY—'• Sir, the law whicb has passed enabling his Majesty to detain in custody persons sus pected of harbouring designs against his person and Government, will expire on the Ist day of July next. We are now in the middle of May, a period, alter which it is reasonable to expect, according to usual practice, that numbers of Gentlemen will be leaving town. I wish, therefore, to ask the Noble Lord op. posite, whether it is the intention of his Majesty's Ministers to apply to Parliament for a renewal of the Jaw to which I have adverted—for a further exten sion of die power which that law now authorises ? I du not: myself wish to enter at large on this subject, because the rules of the House forbid me to do so; Out 1 do hope that the Noble Lord comes, at this pe tod of the Se ram , prepared to give such an answer As wilt sa say the itou‘e otte way or the other." Loid CASTLEREAGH- 6 ' In replying to thel . question of the Right Hon. Gentleman. I have to I acquaint him and the House, that his Majesty's Mi nisters will feel it to be their duty. at the end of the present month, to recommend it to his Royal Hie'. ness the Prince Regent to make a communication to Pirliameat on the internal state of the country. On that communication being made, the same course of proceeding (namely that of appointing a Committee to eaaniino it) will be adopted, as was pursued early in the Session. Perhaps under all the circumstances, I I would be justified iu saying nothing farther, until that information was laid before the House; but, alter the question which has been put to me, it may! be proper, without saying any thing on the present I occasion. that could provoke debate, or that could commit the opinion of the, House. or of any indivi dual, as to what .oughthereafter to be chine, when tie subject shall be brought under their consideration, to state the intentions of his Majesty's Government. I feel it, then, due to the Right Hon. Gentleman and die House, in candour, to state distinctly, that his Majesty's Ministers, in the view which they have of the present situation of the country, will deem it their sluts to repose a continuance of the measure to which the Right Hon. Gentleman has alluded. until the first day of the next Session of Parliament." (Hear, hear, hear, from the Opposition.) Mr. PHILLIPS (of Manchester)—" At the sub ject is one of the greatest importance—as it is one on which the sense of the country should be properly known, and therefore requires the fullest attendance so Members—(Near,itar)—l shall feel it my duty, it the Noble Lord, or some of his colleasoes, Odes not Wei the busipeas.out of my hands, to bring forward a mutton ft.r a call of the House, previous to the dis cusssion of this qoestion."—(llow, hear.) . . Lord CAsTLEREAGH" Though -I will not . . move for a call of the House myself, I can feel no ob jection to such a motion."— (Rear.) . . Mr. BROUGHAM- 64 1 wish to understand, cor rectly, the allover given to the question of my ttight Hon. Prim'. I.desize to know, . whether the Noble Lost means to state, that alter the holidays, his in- Wanton is to move ir tbi appointment-of a Commit ter, in the same way that was practised in the early past of the Session, prior to his submitting any other popositsun Lathe House connected with this subject ? file Noble Lord, I think, seemed to intimate, that previous to the result of such ao investigation being laid helot* us, his view is, to move for the further-ea- teGaioo of this measure." 1 Lord CkSTLERILAGH"Perhaos I have not', rendered Inyselt perfectly intelligible. I said, that the firstpr oceeding will be, a commu n i cat i on f rom th e Pro House, Regent to the with respect to the -1 a u . mils ( te of the country.. Theo I shall move dui HOok to adopt the same proceeding that was paw "; 4seeconmencement of the Session—that gs., to **int a Committee, to inform themselves tlititextet ilk that Mania gate. I then decloed; istud Use his Majesty's bursters Lis i. ulai they did not wish to disguise from the House. that they felt it necessary, for tlist general safety of the country, that Parliament should not rise, withou; extending the Suspension Act." Mr. BROUGHAM—" Then it . is 'the Noble Lord's present ()pinion, that an inquiry into the in ternal state of the country should be instituted—and, independently ot what may be there disclosed, that this measure shall be the result of it." Lord CASTLEREAGH—" I have no wish to commit this House, or any individual, on the subject in question, till they have considered the information which hi: Majesty's Government is anxious to afford them on the state of the country." Sir F It ANC IS BU RDETT—"There can be little doubt of the result of this inquiry, as it is called— ( Ilear,lsear)—hist„ in the mean time, it is.rather im portant to know what number of persons—who they are— where confined - and how arrested—which his Majesty's Ministers have already caused to be taken hear).—And I should slso be glad to know whether they are about to be brought to trial or not ? For this purpose I shall move to-morrow... That a list be laid before the House of the number of persons arrested by order of his Majesty's Go vernment. the. dares of their . arrest, the places of their confinement,' &r." Mr. BROUGHAM—" I hope that some Member of more weight and importance in the House thau I am, will give notice, speedily, of a Motion for an Address to the Prince Regent, paying his Royal Highness that he will be pleased nut to dissolve this present Parliament while the Habeas Corpus Act continues to be suspended."—(Hear). • Mr. PHILLIPS (of Manchester)-oo Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to move that the House be called over on Monday. the 2J of June next." On the qto•stion being put from the Chair.-- Mr. J. P. GRAN said—" This subject having I been mentioned, I think it illy duty to call the wen-- don of the House to X circumstance which I have just leaned to have taken place in Scotland; and which, I think, will spew the House the course of proceeding adopted by the Law Officers of the Crown with regard to the question about which we are now talking. I dare say it will be recollected by the House, that a Learned Lord; whom I am sorry not to see ir, his place—l allude to the First Law Officer ot the Crown in Scotland—stated in this House,l that in the town of Glasgow, where Government I thought it their duty to take up - several persons charged with treasonable conspiracies, he had reason to believe that those conspiracies and associations were nut confined entirely to the lower orders ot people.' Now, Sir, I happen to know, that there was but one person taken up, who was above the l rank of an operative weaver—and that person, as it is represented to me, had no connexion with any of those associations. That individual, who had about one hundred and sixty persons in his employ, and who, therefore, was rather above the lowerorders, and was, in short, a master-manufacturer—that person was arrested, and bail was offered, to the amount of £lOOO, for his liberation, in order to pro ceed with his business, and continue to give employ. ment to his workmen. This bail was refused— and, no doubt, very properly, under the circum: stances of the charg-, the individual having been accused of High Treason, and committed to the Castle of Edinburgh. But lam now informed, by the Agent of that Gentleman. that, without farther examination, the Law (Veers of the Crown (hay ing, • under these circumstances, occeasioned his im prisonment for six weeks) have now consented to his liberation, without giving any explanation on the subject, and. without even demanding bail.— So that from this it appeared, that, without due in quiry (and I would not state the case in the absence of the Learned Lord, if there were any prospect of my having an opportunity of stating it in has presence) this gentleman was arrested. A respectable indivi dual, who, on the chewing of the Law Officers them selves bad given no cause for incarceration, has been incarcerated for six weeks, and, without inquiry, they have consented to his liberation, leaving him to seek for redress, which I hops he will demand and obtain iu a Court of Justice—(Hear, hear.) It is for the House to consider these circumstances well. when we are called on to confer on the Law Officers of the Crown, the power, without limit, of confining persons during the suspension of this Act—(Hear.) When, in the instance I have stated, such has been the result, the House ought to be extremely cautious in continuing so dangerous a power. It is not my intention to attribute unfair motives to any man. I merely state facts; and I think they are not unworthy the consideration of the House, and of his Majesty's Ministers. I trust an explanation will be demanded of the circumstances under which this transaction has happened, and that his Majesty's Ministers will be to exculpate the Law Officers of Scotland, who, I think, have exercised their powers in a manner that calls for inquiry."—Tbe motion was then agreed to. FINANCIAL STATE OF IRELAND. Sir JOHN NEWPORT rose, pursuant to the notice he had given, to call the attention of the House to the present state, of Ireland. as affected by 'the great load of its taxation. At that period, which he would ever call the period of Ireland's glory-413hr years 1781 and 1782, when the great exertions (*his Right Honourable Prink! the Member for' Dublin ( Mr. Grattan), had called into lite the spirit which defended Ireland trims her foreign toes, which pro tected her trade, enforced an obedience to her laws, almost unparalleled, and rendered justice to hersolt by making ter Parliament independent of Great Sri. rain ; at that period her burdens were comparately light. She' looked to herself for protection, and not to the existence of a large military force—(Near,) but this happy state did not last long ; party kills and dissensions spon broke Out, and under the goverg ',sent of a succeeding Lord Lieu tenant that system arose of governing Ireland by division amongst her people. Was it not natural for a country which had surren dered bee independence, and which had since borne an equal, and more than equal portion of the p u blic burdeni, to come now to the Imperial Parliament, and look for auequil portion of redress Hoer, hsor, pm the Ontruition kadia).—Would it not, be would ask, be Considered that Ireland had reason to com plain, when lie should state, that England had been relieved, since the Peace. from a burtben of not less than seventeen millions of taxes, while the relief in that way afforded to Ireland amounted only to 4 4 34440taff The impolicy of our continuing to gan.lreLstid to the present 'llmOunt, be grid* 19. *I 99% Who •'••• , . . , • took the trouble of comparing the amount of her re. venue lit the last yeArs with *that it was in 1808.— The new taxes imposed since 1808, were calculated to produce a sum of three millions and a half, but with this addition, how much Would the House think did the revenue of last year exceed that of the year before those taxes were imposed ? By the vast of 410,000--(Herr, hear).-Tbis was the great p; ice of that vexatious system of taxation which had been imposed, and of all the discontent it hadproduced, and this was accompanied by w•tices of &continuances of horses, carriages, servants, tee. which would amount in decrease of duty to infinitely more than that sum— (Hear, hear).—Would not that circumstance be suf hcient in itself to strew the necessity of having some thing done ? Among the many causes which con tributed to swell the poor rates to their present enor mous amount, and to bring on that poverty which was so generally felt by all classes of manufacturers; there was not one which had a greater effict than the state of our best market, Ireland. The decrease in ' the demand from Ireland for the eleven of the prin. ciple articles of English manufacture and produce, since the year . 1813, was in the proportion of £3,400,(X)u to £1,100,000. The official value of the articles imported from England into Ireland, Was, in 1813, £3,400,000. In the last year it amounted only to I/1,100,000. This was the amount of the official value; the real value must be conside rably greater. Of these articles, the decrease on each would be best seen from this statement. The value of goods imported into Ireland from this country was, In ISIS. Ise 1816. In Woollen Maths • ‘2,000,000 £600,000 In Leather - , . 200,000 49,000 In Iron and Hardware ...... 340,000 170,000 In Cotton Twist 310,000 130,000 Total Decrease And in looking at all these articles it would appear that they were not the luxuries, but the mere neces saries of life. The decrease in ihe - dutiei on Malt was alsosreat. The number of barrels made in three years Were'thus -10 1814 there were In 1815 . ...................... 67000 Ni In 1816 In spirits, the decrease of the duty was great m pro portion. The decrease in wines amounted to £140,000. Though the duties on them were now doubled, the produce was not half what it was a short time before. TINY were in 1615 X5:6,000 1816 444000 Making a deficiency of It might also be necessary to add, in order to shew the farther deficiency which he expected from the in land taxes, the notices served on the Collectors of Hearth and Window Taxes for the years ISIG and 1817, for the discontinuance of 42,000 windows and 10,000 hearths. (Hear, hear.) These were irrefu table symptoms of the distress which existed in Ire land, and of the utter inability of a great portion of the people to pay, for it was natural to think that no Mart would deprive himself of the beim& of light and heat, if he could possibly par for them. (Hear.) Be. sides those, there was euumber nearly as great in pro portion of notices for the discontinuance of carriages, horses, and servants, and jaunting cars. (Hear.) — The Right Honourable Baronet then contended, that as the expenses of Ireland were greater in pro portion than those of England, - and much greater than she at present . could.be expected to pay, it was tika duty of the House to afford her some additional relief. The Right Honourable Baronet concluded by moving a series of Relations, which set forth— . _ -" That ibe gross Revalue of Ireland for ten years after the Union was AV 4614.060, making sa attirese of d 11.161,400 a year. " That the gross Revenue *lreland fur the tea years !mow distely succeeding the Union wa5,C45 1 .579,000, making aa ave rage of £5,5.11.900 a year. - -4 " And that fur the last six years- the gross Revenge was £55,496,000, making an average of £6.05,000 a year. . " And that justice. sound policy, and the real Interests of are Empire, required that the burdens now imposed upon Ireland should be diminished."' Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD defended the po licy which had been acted upon in imposing taxes on Ireland, and contended that it resulted from the Right Honourable Baronet's own chewing, either that the taxes were not such as to defeat the progress of the revenue, or that its progress had not beeo such as had been stated. The deficiency of last year was no proof that the measures of Finance previously adopted were impolitic. It might be accounted for from the general distress which had been felt, and it was not fair to'select that year to compare•with 1808. In the last year the deficiency was £1,191,000. The whole of this had fallen on the Customs, Irisli Excise, and Land Tax, with the exception of about dilo,ooo. The Malt Dudes remitted had caused a falling of of Zi07,000 The reduction of the Duties au Spirits - - 56,000 Making together a deficiency of - £ 493,000 in The repayments made for the stock of malt hand had amounted to £167,000, and there had been a di minution in the duties levied on hearths, amounting to £40,000, but which had been estimated at M 0,000 .1 The at340;000 which bad been remitted in taxes ought to have been brought into the account by the Hon. Baronet, when he was arguing against the im-, policy of the taxes, him the falling off in the revenue. The following deficiencies had occurred last year : On the Assessed Taxes of Ireland - - ii:s4,ooo ro be accounted 101' hoof Hearth duties retained 40,010 carriages - - - - , , . Windows ' - - .. - 36,000 4.000 Hones • - - - 5,000 And these were all that were to be noticed with re spect to the inland taxes in alit whole of the last year. That the taxes had not. fallen off when the duties were augmented, furnished, in his opinion, a strong argument.in favour of the policy which had resorted to them, and the notices of discontinuance which had been received, grew more out of the rigour with which the collection of them had been enforced than out of the character of the duties themselves, and it was hard that the efforts made to collect them should be censured by those who once so loudly complained of their non-collection. (Grin of !leer, hear, leer.) Notwithstanding the falling off which he had admit ted to have taken place in the last year in the inland taxes, their produce, under all the circumstances of -the times, had amounted to £150,000 more than ever they had done in any former year (with the exception 'of the year 1814), and to edema° more than the sum which they produced in 1811. The Honourable Gentleman then 'went over the Loans raised for the service of Ireland since 1812, and strewed the annual charge created "by them; which he.proved to have berm, is . dcquistely met by the taxes imposed for that purpose. Tile increased Tates ,rained in Ireland...k the five Tears ending Infit . fay"B; 11116,11 ad #46€0, 1 the whole revenue in 1801, as the het ?titivate in ct, five years ending in 18161 was as follows: In the Customs Excite, ecc. I 1,73 We irt,tem,o6o lie could not but concur with theitight Hon.Barnr . iii lamenting that iii Ireland, - floin the pirticular el.. cunistances of its financial sitnatioA,: the te.acri on occasioned by the transition to a state of peace, hod been much greater in extent, a'.d was likely to be much longer in duration. But let it not be said that those who disagree 4 from the r,solutions noes , moved were less sensible of the hardships of Ireland, or felt less sympathy in the distresses of the Irish people ; than the Right Hon. Baronet ssho brought them forward. Under all the circumstances of the case he could not assent to the .Resolutidnsanitst moved. • Mr. PONSON BY 4164: tfi4c the Right • ilottourie Gentleman who spoke fast seemed to have mistaken the object of the Resolutions, and seemed to think that an attack was made on the financial administra tion of Ireland. No such attack was'intended. The only objects of his Right Honourable Friend in moving these Resolutions were—Forst, To shew the actual financial situation in which Ireland now stood; and, in the second place', ty she* -that there were certain articles on which the taxes now levied might be diminished, and that by such dimihutiun not only would the but dens of the people be relieved, but even the revenue itself would be benefited. The Right Honourable Gentleman said, he did not deny the dis tress. He (Mr. Ponsonby) did . is i f , cneinth exagge rate it. For his own part he thought it not easy-to exaggerate it ; indeed, he knew it'to be go great that he was frequently tempted to bring the subject liekre the House, were it not that by doing so he felt 50.,- vinced that he could only aJd to the public i4torma. dun without adding any thing to the public re4f. It was highly expedient that the House should be in. loomed of tie actual financial situation of Ireland. It was also the duty of the House to inquire and eon. sider whether many of the taxes levied in Ireland, could not be diminished with advantage to the reve -1 nue ? That there were some articles on which them could be much reduced, be was well convinced. Bat lie was sure that his Right Honourable Friend did not mean to cast any imputation against any Wiwi.. dual concerned in the financial admini.tration of Ire land. It was no imputation to say, that last )ear £17,000.000 of taxes was taken off in England, but only X 370,000 was taken off the people of Ireland. That was no imputation—it was a tact ; and could not be denied. All that was now wanted was an it. quiry whether there could be any further remission of taxation in that country Sir H. PARNELL insisted at some length that the entire system of taxation in Ireland should be revised. The Hearth Tax, in particular, SUS cf nature so repugnant to :Fe Inndainental principles the Constitution—it was so vexatious, from the! powers given by it to the Revenue Officers, and l•ad excited such loud complainta, that it oublit csrtain:y to be taken off entirely. The same tai had been len; taken off in England ; and the same reasons whirl occasioned it to be taken off in this country ought to operate as to Ireland. He remarked, that the dimi. nution of the import of English articles into Ireland was accumpauied by a corresponding diminutinil in the export corn to England. On the whole, from a firm conviction that the situation of Ireland insane of the most grievous distress, and that it was the duty of the House to turn its most serious attention to the financial situation of Ireland, the resolutions met with his most cordial assent. Mr. DENNIS BROWNE supported the motion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. Whatever might have been the nature of the Reso. lutions moved by the Right Honourable Baronet, .and whatever might be the accuracy of the facts vr.. tained in those Resolutions, lie should have thought the House in no way jostified in adopting them, at 4 time when all the matters to which they could relate were under the consideration of a Finance Commi.- tee. The Report of that Committee would put e e House in possession of all the facts and detail, on the financial situation of Ireland. The speech and mo tion of the Right Honourable Baronet proceeded 03 the assumption that the proportion borne by Ireland in the burdens of the war should entitle that country to a remission of taxes to an equal extent with Eng , land. tut it was to be recollected that England had purchased that remission by coritrieuting the sum of £228,000,000 of taxes. He could not be any meaus agree with those who thought that all the distresses of the people were to be attributed to tut lion. If any proof of this was wanting, it might be found in the situation of alaynt every natioa en the Continent of Europe. In Switzerland, for instance, where there were hardly any taxes at all—Yet tbe distress in Switzerland now was' so great, that e.r. state of Ireland, bad as it was, was one of comp.r.s. tire happiness, when contrasted with that at Seiut - ,- land—(lfear, Hear.) Under all circumstance!, he felt it his duty to move the previous question. Mr. M. FITZG E R A Lll supported the Resolutions. Sir JOHN NEWPORT shortly replied. He mail. seined that Ireland, in .proportion to her encl . :ice:, had paid more taxes than England during t::e we, and it this were admitted (and it could not be denie,9 could there be a more itrerragab:e deduction th.in t:. —that Ireland was entitled to a remission tasatiss, at least equal to that which was made in LeS l4 rti• To such a state was Ireland now reduced, tat err some time past the landowner there had been plett his taxes, not out of his income; but out of his C :11)1I4;. WAS it not evident that this . conld not last long ? Was it not evident that nothing could be more in• politic than to continue taxation at its present height? It was from his conscientious conviction on this sub ject that he brought forward the present motion. The question was put on the Resolutions succes sively, and they were all negatived without a divisive- Mr. GOULBOU RN brought in a Bill for the inoreeffectual prevention of murder and manslaughter in places not within his Majesty's dorniniins, which was read a first ti sie, and ordered to be read a second time on Tuesday next, and to be printed. • mamba or THE CROWN. Mr.PONSONLSY moved that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole 1-I , nise Civil and Military Offices continuance Bill. Lord LASCELLES wished to suggest. as he t':• derstnod this was not a permanent measure,' the p7e' 'priety of adding a clause which should etfrrni L principle to flat tlutititni at Parliament; 'YEW One R. !so. net, Eht It i t! e the 710- u 1 1 and ttTT dg- end the LT be the !cc, tt.e !•e e ins ill- re, • t:. I ca. • I f.r a itn• ht? F rte. OZ. the let 1 C. :11 • 1 CI $ Si ne•