Star. — London, England, 1817-06-24 00:00:00

r tiug dorm tnstittectiett, without zny measure lilac the present, M r . wILBEREDRCI: felt as much reluctance as any man to suspend lot a while the best bulwark of or Constitution, but thought in the present instance, ,t the safety of the country rendered such a mei e;.l necessary . He contended that the disturbances in the country were not the effect of mere Lwldism, but that they bore a strong political character. They were managed by men, not indeed of property, but accasiderable energy of mind,. who worked on a i-,eoptc already (open to teductign by tleir own dia. -;asses. They might thus produce a spirit of dis satisiaction throngs' thy vast body of the people, aad that most valuable of all daises. flee working class.— lie contended that the evidence did not deny that ;:Aliv:Jbals might be corin,:cted with the insurgents country, but merely that Oliver knew nothing any such person or association. If (observed the aim. Gentleman) there had been no connection with ',.ondoa, why should the people of Manchester and ueighbiluthood have sat watching the coming in the mails, when they hoped the Tower and the 2,;lnk would be taken. He had not found any well. 2iiected person who had any strong objection to the neasute— (Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) If it ,ere entirely left at the disposal of Ministers, like be Lehrer de Cachet in a neighbouring country— Ohout• of Hear, hear, from the Opposition,)—then it might be dangerous, as it might more likely be abused. But he did not consider it in that point of v ;,:•k. lie acknowledged that the measure would De stronger than when it was first enacted, as it souhl continue whilst the Parliament did nut sit ; but any abuse would be speedily discovered and discussed in the House at its re-union—Ogee, hear.) There would be great danger in allowing those per tons, who had already been taken up and prevented from doing mischief, to be again let loose among the lower orders—again to return to their noxious prac tices—again to disturb the peace of society, and per haps execute their plans for the subversion of the Constitution. W'lacn he • considered what had been already done by those persons, how much more had been attempted—the attempts to debauch the soldiery (A' latish, and Hear, hear, from the Oftrcuition.) Mem- I be:s might laugh, but which of them would laugh at being reminded that by these very attempts the indi viduals had been brought to trial, and had so nearly paid the forfeit of their lives ? And was this matter of laughter ? Upon the whole question, when he con sidered the contents of the first Report, and also of the second —when lie reflected how materially the peace of society and the existence of good order de pended on furnishing the Government with power to punish the disorderly—when he considered the awful tesponsibility incurred by Government in the exercise of these powers, he could not but vote for this Bill, Lord ALTHQRPE.—The speech of the Honour able Gentleman who spoke last, although very elo quent, had yet completely failed in'convincing him of the necessity of furnishing the Executive Govern ment with the very great powers which they uoW denranded. He thought that Ministers had entirely failed in making out such a case as to justify the ne-. c.ssity of granting those powers. Even if all that the Reports of the Committees contained were allowed to be true, a sufficient case had not been made out.— But when it was considered how very much the facts alleged in the Reports had been mistaken, the. ease igainst this was much stronger. • In the first Avon it was said that the disaffected in the metro-, polis had assumed the French Revolutionary em-. bleu., but it had been proved this was not the case; that, on the contrary, the flags and cockades of the rioters were not of the French colours, but 'green, white and red, adopted from some absurd notions about nature, truth, and justice. He trusted that many of those who had supported this Bill in the early period of the Session would vote against it now, for there "was a wide difference between entrusting the Executive with such extraordinary powers during the Session or Parliament, and continuing those ;ewers during its prorogation. To talk of confidence in Government was no argument when the question was about the safeguard of the Constitution. It was also to be observed, that this Act had nothing to do with the exertions of Magistrates, to whom it gave' nn new power. On the whole, he hoped the House would see the necessity of rejecting this Bill. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY.—The Noble Lord who opened this debate said, he thought thatall those, who voted for this measure in the early pan of the Fission, must also give their vote for the Bill now before the House. Indeed the Noble Lord went far ther, and calculated that some of those who had op. posed the passing of the former Bill must agree to, tiro one now before the House. Under all the cit.- Constances of the case, however, it really seemed to him, that this was a very unwarrantable assump tion. For his own part, he had paid great 'attention to this subject ; he had examined the facts, and con sidered them with all his powers—and this much be would say, that if he thought the measure now pro posed expedient, he would have voted for it. Bat it WAS to be considered what the nature of the measure oat? It was not merely the Habeas Corpus Act Which they were called upon to suspend; but it was the writ of the Habeas Corpus iiself—it was also to take away the Trial by Jury. What then was the' House about to do ? They were consenting to take may the benefits of the Constitution for an unlimited period. It was to be particularly observed with re ined to the duration of the measure, that it was inde nite• The Suspension was to continue as long as it, should please the Executive Government — that was, to say, till Parliament should meet again; and that Itiight be till November, or till January, or till Ifireh—in short, os long as the Government pleased. lithe Bill was to be passed, at least, he hoped, a clause would be introduced to limit the time of its duration till December, or some other period less distant. But the measure had been already tiled ; d how would experience support it Had it been found successful ? • The Noble Lord's argument for the hill now, did not look very like this. The Noble Lord said, those who supported the Bill before, mast support it new, on account of the " augmented *s tein of the conspiracies," as the Noble Lord phrased it ' So it teemed conspiracies had grown up under the operations of this Bill. Fur his own part, this mimed to hint very natural. The operations of this all gave the people a real grievatioe to complain of. the designing and the mischievous bad now•a real 34Itdk with which to work on the minds of the igno rant. They were not now obliged to hunt back to • t!,e reign of ttia:g Liz icr. Orne ithagtnatt grteiN mice ; rill- now '1 rial by Jury was done away with—. the system of Government acting by spies was avowed--(Cries of Hear, hear, is orb the opposition , ) That things shluld be come to such n pass, that in the British House of Commons the systetn of spies ~hould b openly aviiwe,!, was truly a most melan choly consideration ; it was what most excite and ought to excite more discontent than such measnres as — this Bill ought to suppress or could keep down. He was one of those on whom the first Repiert of the Secret Committee had madc a great impression ; but upon %more rninute inquiry and more grave comi detation he had changed his opinion. Having com pared the facts which came out in an authentic shape un the late trials, with the statements in that Report, his confidence in k bad been much shaken. W. it possible that after all that was said iii it abottt ern. - . . sprouts and delegates, one Circuit and one Quarter Sessions had taken place without one trial ? (Ear, hoar, hear.) —That Government had even avoided bringing any one case to trial! (Hear, hear.)—At Manche:3er no less than 140 persons had been ar rested. Of these only a few were indicted ; and even these few were net brought to trial, for the Govern ment caused writs of certiorari to be sued out to pre- vent the trials, and thus to prevent the good effect which must ensue from making examples of the guilty, or rather to prevent it from being seen that racts had been greatly misrepresented. But What per. sons had been convicted for this ? What trials had there been ? Only one. And that one solitary case was for a libel on the passing of the former Bill—a libel, he might say, provoked (not that he meant this as any justification of that case), but in a manner provoked—certainly caused by the passing of this Act. The case he alluded to was that of Wooler. In ar guing against the necessity or the policy of this mea sure, it was not necessary to go farther than the last Report of the Committee. There were two passages in it which he must beg leave to read to the house. They were these Your Committee cannot con template what has passed in the country, even since the date of their former Report, without the most se rious apprehensions."--4. It appears to your Commit tee, that the utmost confidence prevailed among the Delegates as to the ultimate attainment of their ob ject; that the successive arrests of several of the prin cipal leaders, though they occasioned momentary dii appointment, did not extinguish the spirit of insur. rection or the hopes of success." What, then, did all this prove ? Did it not drew that the effects of this Bill were utterly inadequate to the object' in view ; and that it produced no permanent good et. feet ? It appeared that there was no want of leaders. So long as there were any disaffected, they would not want a leader. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr.Wilber. force) seemed to forget, that by an Act passed in the beginning of this Session, all chose Delegates were made liable to transportation. The Learned Mem ber then went on to confute, from facts, what was said about Luddism ; maintaining that that onfortu innate system had taint such. deep root in the coon trY, that if the Bill was to be passed to put an end to that dreadful system, its duration must not be for a few months, but fur several years—(Hear, hear.) As to that part of the Report which treated of the situation of' London, it was said. that " ne specific information has .been laid before your Committee of the existence of any body of men, associated in the Metropolis, with whom the disaffected in the country appear to be acting in concert, or to hold communi . cation." What he alluded her to particularly was the use of the words "no specific information." If there was no spreifir information before the Commit ,' tee on that subject, he was entitled to assume, that there was no ititormation at all worth any notice. How his Honourable Friend (Mr. W.) ,could say, after all the petitions on the table of the House.— after the petition presented the other night from the Merchants and Bankers of a town which his Honour able Friend once represented ; how, after all this, he could :ay that none but t e disaffected opposed the measure—( Loud cries of , hear, from the Op- position)—was more than he could conceive. He could not but consider has one of the worst signs of the timers that undue powers should not be considered with a view to their particular nature and tendency. but to the hands to which they were entrusted. Of *hat tyrant the most detestable who ever lived, had irnot at some time been said, that the powers which he abused might be safely trusted to him ? As for this particular case, he had a high respect for the private character of the Noble Lord. to whom the powers conferred by this Bill would be more imme diately entrusted ; but as to his public acts, for them be had no respect whatever (Thor, from the Opposition). Bad as the effects of this Bill would be to England— to Scotland they would be infinitely worse. By its operation the benefits of the Wrongous Imprisonment Act would be completely taken away. The general disposition of the people of Scotland was good and loyal, although it had been much misrepresented., To prove this, he referred to the Address lately pre. rented to the Prince Regent by the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland. The Noble Lord affected to talk of the perilous responsibility incurred by Go ;moment in being invested With such extraordinary powers. This really almost seemed as if the Noble Lord was amusing himself at the expense of the House. When even the names of the persons im prisoned under these powers were refused, did they talk of responsibility ? Was there any man who doubted that this would be followed up by an Act of Indemnity The present Administraiion had gained very much by this measure. Tim present Session would have passed [in a very different way, if this greatest of all questions had not been forced upon the House. Indeed, it was generally believed that the Noble Lord, and his colleagues, owed their conti nuance in office to these measures. The country was reduced to a dreadful situation, and its prospects had become indeed melancholy.—(Hear, hear).- -The nation was divided into two opposite parties. The people, by their violence, gave the Government an opportunity of strengthening its hands; and the Government, by the violence of its measures, exaspe rated the people. Where this would end Gov alone could know ; but part of the effect of such a system , 'was, to take away respect for all Governments; for, when Ministers were accused, their , murse was to shew that their predecessors had done what was as bad•or worse. The effect of this was plain. If ever tumults should arise, there would be some to whom the people could look up with confidence. They would be obliged ►o have recourse' to the wretched ad4enturen %%km the times should ondect, and whom thAt dreadful crisis would force ir,to notice.- 7 Td that disastrous state• he feared we were of hstis tening: When it arrived—but Goff forbid it ever should- , .than indeed sertlld that responsibility which the Noble Lotel now Idiy talked or ; fall til)nn him and-Isis collearturs, and they would deeply repent the course which they had pursued—(Heat, hear). Mr. BAN was aware of the difficulty of an swering the Honourable and Lea:mid Gentleman (Sir Samuel Romilly)—(Hear, hear, from the Oprori tion)—hut he spoke shortly in favour 01 the Bill, contending that• it was more necessary during the prorogation, than during the sitting of Parliament. Lord MILTON spoke stror,4 agaiw.t the Bill. He lamented that itt supporting the Bill in the early part of the Session, he had been obliged to differ from his dearest friends, but was now happy t) agree With them in reprobating the proposed measure, as he con sidered it both unnecessary and impolitic. He wished to force Ministers to do justice by punishing those who have been criminal, which would do more to restore tranquillity than any thing else that could be adopted. It was a bill of attainder which deprived the people of their constitutional rights. The history of the Habeas Corpus Act proved that it was our barrier against the power of the Crown, which had always increased. He knew no Ministry who were not in clined to increase that power. He was one of those who thought that the greatest harm that had been done to this country was the language and the publi. cations that had been held and circulated. Nothing could tend mine to degrade authority than to make the people believe, that such an Act as that of the Habeas c'orpus was of little or no value. He would much rather place this power in the hands of James 11. pr Ministers who would abuse it, than in the bands of those wi-o profess to use the measure mildly. Let us only restore prosperity to the country, and we should hear no more of disaffection or alarms. Mr. COURTENAY (of Exeter) thought it was giving an unfair representation of what had passed on his side of the House, to assert that the powers to be vested in Ministers were likely to be abused. Be went at some length into a general defence of the measure, and said, he gave credit to the sentiments in the Report, which he conceived spoke the fair sense of the evidence. If he found the evil existing in five or six counties in England, it would not be prudent to leave the whole of the other parts exposed to the ittfluetice of the meditated mischiefs. Sir JOHN NEWPORT. was against the further Suspension. and of course would give hi, vote against the Bill. Mr. W. ELLIOT would pass by the grounds of the measure being an encroachment on the Constitu tion. The Parliament having reserved to itself the right of renewing the Act, the point at issue now was, whether we were in sufficient security to aban. don the measures which had protected us ? It had been proved that there was a system in action to cor rupt, morally and politically, the most extensive and efficient part of our population. The danger which he felt did not result from partial disturbances, but from the peculiar mind and disposition of the people ; for who could observe the conduct of the Delegates without feeling jhat precaution was absolutely neces sary ? If this principle were let alone, it would Work from the low into the higher classes of the community. There were men who had considerable influence on the public mind. Nobody could doubt that the object of the Manchester Expedition was !me. (Hear, hear.) The demagogues harangued, the people followed. The detention of the leaders was a salutary precau cation ; by detaining them their dependents were confounded and disheartened. If we were now to withdraw the measure, we should give them a fresh impulse. He therefore not only gave his vote for it, but lie was ready to acknowledge that he had joined in recommending it, because he was convinced that it was calculated to protect the best iutererts of the country-( Bear, hear.) Mr. BROUGHAM would avail of this opportu .nity of delivering his opinion, as it was not likely he should find one in the future stages of the Bill. The question was exactly the same as when the first Re. port was laid on the table, all men admitting that the measure was a suspension of the Constitution ; and it resolved itself into this—have we evidence that such a necessity exists ? No. On a comparison of the first Report, with the facts that have since tinned out, it would be seen to be all one from beginning to end. It was of the nature of alarm to be infectious, -and nothing • were men more anxious to do than to communicate the disease to others—(Rear, hear.) — The Manchester plot bare the same reference to the present Report as the London plot did to the first; and now it was said that the plot was confined to the country, and there was no focus of it in London ; so that we bad not so formidable an enemy to con tend with. An individual (Thistlewood) had been supposed to possess the power of paying for all ex ' peases of the insurrection. Yet it turned out that he was so poor, that he could not afford to appear in the ordinary dress of the country, but was habited in a sailor's jacket. The Learned Gentleman then en tered into an account of the plan of the conspirators, as developed in the late trial, which he argued was one of the most ludicrous cases ever brought before a Jury, both as respected the situation of the prisoners, the attack made, or said to be made, on the Tower by a formidable army of oar man, or the plan of taking the Bank by the truly tremendous blow of glass bottles. (Load faughlas, dad /fear s hear.) The cavalry commanded by two Generals or Captains, who could pot ride, and one of whom could scarce walk, while, by the artifice of Castle, a wretch, at pronouncing whose name even nature herself trem bled, lost as he was to every feeling but that of blood and rapine—the waggon was loaded with what ? Why, 1 lb. powder and six bullets—a tremendous store, no doubt. , (Hew- aad a latch.) The Lord Mayor, a Member now of that House, was not called, and why ? Because he knew the whore as a whole. This was the plot, and no man would have given his credit to it, without great hesitation indeed, it, ipstead of being presented then, it had been presented now. The question was, on what foundation the informa- 1 tion rested. The persons who had been tried were I not guilty of high treason; but it was not proved' that those.persons were worthy of the respect of any honest man; and it was not proved that it they had been tried for the offence they had actually commit ted, they would not have . been found guilty by the sexy same Jury. Undoubtedly the riot was a great crime, and he should deeply regret the day whtts tlm.c Sod 'eottpanioni• of tasile should be lifted into the! lent. degree of public importance. Tile Honourahle Get • dernin went on to contend, that the conduct of flows at Manchester did not bear nut the opiaio.r, entertained of it: Adverting' to 181'2, he obse:ved, that not one word was then suggested, of the nece,. sky of Gagging Acts, much lest of tu .HenJing the Constitution. He then noticed the different ergo.; Mews of the Honourable Member for Yorkshire, which he considered as inapplicable to that case. Lie did not accuse Lord Sid , siouth of intending to abase this power, because it was net necessary to Wit art mast—(LaushLr).—rent was he infalli'de while tl4 ra were Castles and Myers in the w )11,1? He .toce! i:t this moment the recut dad dupe of Ctiiver, and privat:: malevolence might find its v..ay into that claimer where self-ii nest had Arcady made a lidgmeitt.— He condemned tht doctrine that spies mast be err' • ployed, and expressed his astolishmera that it shcn.ll be asserted there was nothing agains , the moral charac ter of Oliver, who had excited p.. , 0p1e in acts of Hie: Treason, in order to extort money tunn the Govern ment by fraud. If a rising had taken place, he waul.". have been guilty of every drop of iniiic.:nt blaod that might have Leer. shed, either by the insurgents or by the executioner. He defied any man to shew him it more blackened villain than him who was defended under this new system of morality. He concluO.ed with insisting that the reat h remc , ly for the evil was ia bringing the persons to trial agair.st whom there was evidence. The imprisonment of 11.0 persons iu Lan caster Castle, withcut bringing them to trial, was the best proof that .there was no evidence against them, and was the strongest argument against p,iv;:tg Mi• sisters such inordinate power. He allud,d to tlic pinion of Earl Fitzwilliam, as a corroboration that there was no ground whatever for these exaggerated alarms, and that no new power was necessary to pre serve the public tranquillity. He would deny that we had a Constitution if we were to fear for it every time it was assailed by a Watson, a HOOper, a Pres ton, or a l'histlewood ; for until such reptiles swarme in every street, it was a gross and pitiful injustice and cruelty to deprive the people of England of their li berty. If this Bill were passed, let the expression never be heard again, that Englishmen were happier than the rest of mankind, by possessing a greater de gree of-civil liberty. Mr. CANNING argued the policy of the measure s and defended the conduct of his Friend ( Lurd Sid mouth) as dictated by the most heartfelt concern for the public welfare. He considered that the very im portaiit question now under consideration depended entirely upon three positions: namely, was there dan ger in the country ? Was that danger such as to re quire extraordinary powers to be put into the hands 01 the Ministers of the Crown ? And was the precise measure now under discussien that which was adap teal to ward off the evils which were impending That there was danger in the country, he thought few, indeed, would be found to deny ; and that it was of a mature which required such a remedy, no man who had completely considered the subject could dispute. Even on the subject on which many Ho nourable Gentlemen had been so triumphant, the acquittal of the perms (Watson, Hooper, Thistle wood and Preston) who had been tried for high trea son, he thought there was not so much reason' for congratulation.—( Loud crier of Hear, hear.) In. deed, if 'it were generally considered on the other side, that the offences of Messrs. Hooper, Preston, and Watson, were as nothing, and that every thing that they had been concerned in was perlectly nano. cent—(Cries of No, ~ I from ere Clipositiors).- - then, he was to understand that there was realty guilt in the transactions in %%Lich those men were eneae,ed. But if, perchance, by. mistake, they should Lave been considered as having, by their own innocence being proved, destroyed all evidence of improper proceed ings, what effect would their acquittal have in the country? Where would there have been a greater ar gument for a Suspension than that very acquittal ? It ought, indeed, to be recollected, that the advocates of some of those very men at the Old Bailey had found fault with the negligence of the Officers of the Crown • in not indicting tn e m for high treason, and not for the minor offence for which they were then tried.— 'The Honourable and Learned Gentleman, in his humble opinion, had entirely misunderstood the ob servations of his Honourable Friend, the Member for Leicestershire. He had not defended every thing which had been done by a person of the name of Oliver; he had only said that lie was not acquainted with any offence of which that person had been guilty previous to the transactions in which he bad been particularly mentioned. It bad been argued that a certain Noble Lord had " Turned a tyrant in his latter days, " And lost the lustre of Its former praise!' He did not see, however, that that had any great weight with the question, which, as his Noble Friend, whose able speech the House had heard early in the evening, had said, rested entirely upon its own merits. As it had been well observed, it }vas for the loyal, the peaceable, and well disposed, that the measure was required ; for them he demanded it, and their rights he would maintain. It was for the peace, for the safety, and the tranquillity of the country that the measure was required. It was re quired for one whose preservation might be of con ; sequence. It was necessary that our liberty should be for a time controlled in order that we might enjoy it greater permanence and perfection. It was I.e. cessary, in order that we should he guarded Iron those who would destroy our Constitution under the . pretence of restoring it. it was absolutely requisite. is order that the fermentation which was perceptible in the country, from vari.us causes might be silt,. dueJ, whereas, if not touched, it would finally and inevitably have exploded. Once more, be repeated, it was for the loyal subjects of the Realm that, tko Suspension was required, send for those he hoped it would be granted. Lord FOLKESTONE congratulated the 11.1u.e and the country on the happy reconcili::tion whicn had taken place between Lord Sidmoutli and the Right son. Gentleman, and he was the more glad of this when he remembered the excellent lines in which at different times the Right Horonta!)le Gen dematt had been pleased to paneg yi ise hi, n .rla Friend, of which the following were not the w o r s t " t shoved myself prime IN to the er•umcry, My ends attulned, my only aim ha. hixo, bp enn alre, beer bets Lein vidt pair off side the pea , pen pun to; of f gat of met den ftil ces. the In I 13u, alle It‘f pol Mr do wh m. et is th, oh in al vI w. le n t, ld 3C he tg ad 14 ite cd ni• ICC to :48 !ed ate hat tut Ti het sty fla.;e, and i;1141 my humble naalt!" W.O the view Right titmouribje