Star. — London, England, 1814-11-29 00:00:00

Saxony was vested in the Prussians, as appeared by Prince Repain's Proclamation ? He was himself ready to hear his full share of the responsibility me naced by the Right Hon. Gentleman, when, he de sired the House to remember what he had stated this night. But what did the Right Hon. Gentleman mean by provisional occupation ? The Proclamation of Prime Repnin to the Saxons stated, that they had be;come without any limitatitth subjects of the King of Prussia. Yesterday the Right Hon. Gentleman Ar:;ucti hypothetically as to Sicily, this . day .he rea soned upon his belief with respect to Saxony. But if the occupation of that country was intended to be permanent, Lord Castlereagh ought not to have re mained at Vienna one moment after he was in pos session of the fact. He would in that case be re. clued to the situation of a mere automaton, and could not submit to such a degradation without bringing disgrace upon his country. This was a case more fit to be taken up by Parliament, as we war to pay a p in of the troops employed in- taking possess ion of Saxony. Mr. BATHURST observed, that this country was not a party to the Convention with Prussia - relative to the occupation of S.ixony. Neither were Ministers' responsible for the instructions given to a foreign Ge ne ral over whom they had no control. They had official information, as Gentlemen might have under stood, from what had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend, that the British Minister had not consented to thermal decision of the fate of Saxony.. That 'ques tion rested with the Congress—the Congress had not yet met, and, therefore the British Minister could not have assented to what had not been decided. Mr. PONSONBY was ivillins to suppose that nei ther the British Minister nor the King of Prussia could have been a party to the permanent spoliation of Saxony. The first article of the Treaty of Chau- Mont between Prussia and Great Britain stipulated the combined employment of all their means to obtain for themselves and their allies a peace under which the rights and liberties of all the nations of Europe should he re-established. This was the tenour of the first article of the Treaty of Chaumont, and this country kept up or paid 75,000 men for carrying that treaty into • effect. Yet the Proclamation of Prince Repnin states!, that the Saxons were handed over as subjects to the King Prussia 4g and his descendants." It also corgrattil-tted them upon the virtues of that Sovereign in adversity, and his magnanimity in pro sperity! It was the army of Saxony that, at the bat tle of Lei psic, enabled the Allies to conquer the coun try only to enslave it ; and Thielman, who first gave - t o his countrymen the example of resistance to Franca, was now in coninement, a victim to his patriotism. It was a taserabl-... subterfuge to say, that it was im possible the spoliation could have bean commit ted, because the Congress had not met. Suppose the Congress were never to meet, has not Prussia the oc cupation of the country ? It these documents were for geries, Ministers may have some defence. Bat the iliGniteur, the Franch official j-urnal, announced the fact of the occupation of Saxony by Prussia in the way reFresented in the documents. The Right Ho n . Gentleman rested up an the circumstance of the Con gress not having yet met ; but if these documents were true, it must be inferred from them, that Minis ters had consented to the occupation of Saxony. Mr. BATHURST had stated, that Ministers did not rest the statement as to Saxony upon the fact that the Congress had not yet met, but upon their official information from the British Negotiator, that the fate of that country was not filially decided. As to the force necessary to carry into effect the Treaty of Chaumont, this country kept tip its portion of men, but did not pay any part of the quotas of the other parties. Mr. TIERNEY contended, that if the whole of the 7.5,000 men, the portion kept up by this country, was not employed in the Netherlands, the part of that force which was kerving out of that country was sas sisting in the spoliation committed in Saxony. Would ' the Right Hon. Gentleman say, that the provisional occupation of Saxony had the consent of Lord Cas tlereagh ? • Mr. BATHURST stated, that Saxony had been before occupied hr that this provisional eccupatio:. by Prussia Was sinip!y a transfer of pos session from one Power to another. As to Poland, lee had no right to negociate respecting it, as we had no force employed there. Mr. WHITBREAD observed, 'that this hairssplit ting 'hewed some ingenuity. But he asked, whethet Prince Repnin would have stated before the world that Lord Castlereagh had acceded to the Conven tion it he were not borne out by the fact ? If these - documents were forget ies, then their author ought to be punished, if not, Lord Castlereagh ought to come h , tn , .. The document stated, that the supreme Ad ministration of Saxony WAS handed over to Prussia by a Convention between Russia and that Power, which was acceded to by Austria and England. Whenever was that Convention ? Have Ministers received it ? If all this was forgery let that be told; but if it was ail true, then the House, with contrition, shame, and humiliation, would perceive, that even before Con gress had met, Great Britain had incurred the shame and infamy of having consented to such an act of robbery. Mr. BATHURS r said, that there was a great d:ff..rtisce between a finger) , and an unauthenticated document.' He had asserted that these documents were unauthent cated on the authority of the last dis- patches from Lord Castlereagh, which weie of the I I th inst. the Proclamation being of the Bth. Mr. TIER NEY —44 Then we have one fact, that in the list dispatches from Lord Castlereagh there is no mention of Prince Repisin's Proclamation." Mr. WHITBREAD--" N. r any of the provisio nal occupation of Saxony."' Mr. LITTLETON having resided a considerable time-in the country, could assure the Hulse, that the whole of its population, with the exception of halt a dozen individuals gained over by Russian bribery, or by the orders distributed amongst them by the Em peror, demanded back their King, he wished he could lay their Elector. The whole of the spoliation could be traced to the Councils of Russia, which Power • wanted PoLind, and was ready to give Saxony to • Prussia as *equivalent. ' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated, that the Convention which had bees alluded - to bad no existence, as far as related to this country. • The-first Resolution of the Committee was then agreed to t and a short acid desultory conversation took place upon some of the rensaining Resolutions, in which it appeared that a small sum of 14500, being part of what was ultimately to be allowed him, was granted to the Officer commanding the vessel in which the Prince Regent of Portugal is to return to Europe, to cover the expense of providing for the Suitable reception and accommodation of that trious Personage. The whole of the Report was then agreed to. The False Measure Bill was read it third time, on the motion of Mr. Wurrnaeats, and passed. The Habeas Corpus Amendment Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Friday, the 10th of February. Mr. TIE RNEY desired to know both the day from which, and the day to which, it was intended to pro pose an adjournment of the House ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had by his question anticipated a notice of a motion which he' meant to give. It was his intention to propose, that the House should adjourn from Thursday next, to Thursday, the 9th of February. Sir JOHN NEWPORT gave notice that he should to-morrow (this day) move .for certain proceedings of Grand Juries in Ireland ; and also for an Account of the amount of Fees of Officers in Chancery in that country. Ordered, on the motion of Mr. PETER GRANT, that there he laid before the House an Account of the number of persons, male and female, imprisoned in the Gaols of England and Wales, in the years .1813 and 1814, distinguishing offences with which charged, convictions, acquittals and discharges, Also, a like Return for Ireland and Newgate, and a similar Return for Scotland, for the years 1811, 1812, 1813, and 1814. Ordered, on the motion of Mr. MARSH, " that there be laid before the House an Account of all the Imports into Great Britain, from Canada, Nova Sco ria, and New Brunswick, and of all the Exports from Great Britain tj the same, from the year 1800 to the year 1814, both inclusive, distinguishing such arti cles in each year as exceeded £lOOO in value." The Honourable Member moved for this Account to shew the commercial value of these Colonies to this coun try, and to enable the House to judge whether there was any adequate object in continuing the war for the military occupation of the Lakes ? Mr. HORNER gave notice of a motion for Thurs. day, tot Papers relative to tho conduct of the war in North A merica. Nimm AtSIZE OF BREAD. Mr. Alderman SMITH gave notice that he should to-morrow move fur leave to bring in a Bill to Re peal the Act regulating the Assize of Bread in Lon don and Westminster, and within ten miles round. His object was to let the Bill lie over till after the recess, in order to give Gentlemen an opportunity of considering its provisions. MILITIA. Sir S. ROMILLY rose, pursuant to his notice, and requested the 48th and 49th of his present Ma jesty to be read, relating to the calling out of the Militia, and the providing for their continuance in an embodied state. He considered that no apology was required for his endeavouring to draw the attention of the House to the subject of the Militia still conti nuing embodied, in the apparent circumstances of the country. Before he had presumed to submit the motion he was about to make, he had reflected, again and again, on the law which was the object of it; — he had listened to different opinions on the subject ; and being at leri?th fully satisfied in his own mind that his Majesty 's Ministers had acted unconstitu tionally, he resolved to bring the question under the consideration of that House. While he made these observations, however, he desired rot to be misun derstood as implying that the Militia were released from those duties which, originally, they engaged to fulfill ; that the persons so engaged were not bound to obey their superiors, or were not subject to mili tary law. He admitted, also, that it rested with his Majesty to say what militia regiments should be dis embodied, and what retained ; the oily grcund of censure being on the part of those persons who had not advised the Crown to disband the Militia long before the present time. Respecting the jet of the question, this was extremely plain, the occasions on which the militia were to be called out having been' particularised in the Acts already read—as in case of, invasion, ( f imminent danger, of rebellion, or of in surrection. These were the four cases which autho- I rised the calling out of the militia ; and by which the neceEsty for their services ought to be limited..— Now, he would ask, was this country at present in one of the four given cases ? He regarded the mi- 1 litia, in its just state, as a most excellent institution, to which this country had trusted in the most trying times ; it had manifested a just jealousy of a stand ing army, while it looked to the Militia as its great constitutional defence ; and, therefore, the assimila tion of the militia to any thing like the character of a standing army, as the practice of the present day tended to make it, could not be contemplated with out deep distrust. The militia was a force composed of armed citizens, to be trained in certain habits of war, but still referring to the hour when the soldier should again become the citizen, and in the mean time, be never wholly as it were separated from the tenderer affinities of life. Hence, indeed, the militia still enjoyed the benefit of Habeas Corpus, a privi lege nut bestowed on the regular soldier; and hence, also, the extent of the militia service was never left to an indefinite period. So convinced was he of the excellence of this peculiar feature in the militia sys tem, that, however he might applaud the spirit of numbers who had volunteered their services to go abroad, he could not altogether approve of that ardour,_ in such instances, which it was impossible not to admire. By the Act of Edward I. the cha racter sf citizen was so attended to, respecting the Militia, that the militia-man was protected from serving out of his own country ; even by the 4th of Henry IV. he was not expected to serve otherwise but on extraordinary emergencies ; and though this regulation was brokep through during the unhappy reign of Charles I. it was restored in the reign of Charles 11. and finally put cAt its existing footing by an Act passed in the second year of George ll. Never had the Crown called out the Militia without a Proclamation, or by consent of Parliament; nor hod itfernierly been customary to continue them in an ernboi.tiO state witlyout some communication from the Throne to the Legislature. It was during the year 1776, on the breaking out of the insurrection in our American Colonies, that the first deviation took place in the manner of calling nut the militia of this country ; but even then the Ministers came down to Parliament for an Indemnity Act, which was not passed without great opposition to it, and was re stricted in its duration to seven years, when hostilities ceased, and with the measure to which those hostili. ties gave rise. Ministers had not then attained to the presumption of making these large and liberal constructions of Acts of Parliament now ventured on and justified.—( Hear, hear.) —We had eXperienced, in the preaeist case, nearly si; months ot peace, accom panied likewise with internal tranquillity, yet the I Militia was for the greater part. embodied ; and if they were to remain embodied in such a state of', things, it was quite impossible to assert when they might expect to be disbanded, or whether they might not continue embodied for the remainder of his Ma jesty's reign, and the reign ensuing.—(f/ear, Hear.) He certainly had heard one excuse on this head, and mnly one, on the nature of the war with America; but would any Gentleman say that cur situation in this respect was not extremely different to the predi cament in which this country stood with regard to France, who threatened to invade us during any four hours ?—( Hear.) The most pervetted interpretation of the Act would not authorize the late application of it ; as well might it be contended that the exis tence of differences with the lley of Algiers furnished a suAicient ground for continuing the militia in force. Scarcely could he bring himself to believe what he had heard, that the Crown had the power to continue the Militia as long as it pleased. Though there hap pened to occur a want of forces in distant parts, also, yet seeing we had no invasion to encounter, no rebel lion to subdue, he hardly could conceive that such an argument would be urged ; nor could be believe that the House would assent to the propriety of Ministers still continuing the Militia in their present state, merely because they had already boen called out. He understood that the Militia were continued em bodied in consequence of the opinion of his Majesty's Law Officers ; yet as this opinion had been asked con trary to the usual way of taking such an opinion, npt before, but after the step had been taken by those Mi nisters, he must be excused if he suspected that the opinion might, in such circumstances, have been de livered with a view to accommodate those who re quested it— [Laugh:, and cries Of " Hear, hear 1"] — Why was the Militia embodied, however, while the re• gnlars had been disbanded ? A week ago he moved for such returns as would have evinced the situation of our armed force, which motion he considered as having been treated with contempt, since no papers were produced by it. The Militia were kept up, as if Government was anxious to display its authority on this subject, and to defy its antagonists. In what ever way he considered the act of continuing the mi litia, he viewed it as illegal and unconstitutional, and be the result what it might, he was glad he had brought the subject before the House. He should, therefore, move a Resolution— That the continuing of the Militia embodied, when the country had been upwards of five months at peace, aitended by an u n d ; ,_ turbed internal state of tranquillity, was manifestly contrary to the Chi of his present Majesty, and a manifest vaolatio., of the Constitution. The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, heremained still of an opinion quite contrary to that delivered by the Honourable and Learned Gentleman sat down, by whom his Majesty's Law Officers were re presented as having acted illegally in not advising tl.e disembodying of the Militia. Setting aside the ques tion of expediency, the right of keeping up the litia when fairly called out, was clearly. a distinct branch of the Prerogative ; for there was an essential differencx, as the Act stood, between the calling out and keeping up the Militia —(Hear, hear, hear.) — That his Majesty could not call out the Militia, except in the cases specified in the Act for that purpose, he was ready to grant ; buf when the same Legislative deed provided no time for limiting the continuance of the Militia in their embodied state, he considcrod it quite legal, on the part of.the Crown, to retain and continue them. Certainly there were circumstances which were necessary, to the Militia being called out —invasion, insurrection, rebellion, yet no proyision was enacted with the prospect of their disembodying. It appeared to him a mistake to suppose, that, after this statement, the House possessed no remedy in the case before them. Besides the responsibility of Mini sters, as to the advice they gave the Crown, those Ministers were obliged to come to the House to ask for annual supplies for the Militia, and renewals of the Mutiny Bill : and the withholding of either would render it impossible for his Majesty to continue the Militia. He still meant to defend the opinion he gave, that there was nothing at all illegal in conti nuing the Militia in their embodied state, since there was nothing imperative on his Majesty to disband them. Expediency was another point, though here he was inclined to think that if the Act bore a parti cular construction, it seemed to have been framed with the prospect of enabling the Crown to continue the Militia : of this he felt assured, at any rate, that, how ever it might be commented on as an act of preroga tive, it offered no violation of the Constitution. (Mar.) What the Honourable Gentleman on the other side meant by his opinion being in contradiction to the spirit of the Act, he pretended not to know, since those Gentlemen were in the habit of letting in new lights on subjects of every kind. Unless it could b e made out, that not disembodying the militia was ille gal, it never could be inferred that it was unciansti tuitional. He could most conscientiously say, if he knew any thing of his own mind, that none had less confidence in his own opinion, nor was any more wil ling to confess he had been in an error, t+ hen con vinced of the truth; yet, having read the Act circumspectly, he was convinced - that the proceedieg was not contrary to the spirit of the Act, and most assuredly it was no violation of the Constitution. On these grounds he should resist the motion. Lord MILTON observed, that the Learned Gen tleman, instead of looking at its spirit, stuck too much to the letter of the Act. While he agreed with him that it contained no provision for disembodying the militia, yet the causes there specified for caging them out could alone justify the keeping them together.— He suspected there was sonic plan for converting the militia into a' regular army ; and considered the mi litia as placed in an unexpected and cruel situation. Sir A It THUR picur said, he saw no cause ex istieg in the country for keeping up the militia, which a body of constables could not remove. He would therefore give his most cordial •concurrence to the motion. Mr. Serjeant BEST defended the statement of the Solicitor-General respecting the la? , on the subject of the Militia. If there was no positive law that fixed the time when the Militia should be disembodi e d, then it must rennin in the discretion of the Crow n to keep it up so Wag as should appear expedient. Mr. I'ONSON 3Y was surprised at the doct i int% he heard advanced that night by an Honourable and Learned Member high in otfice. There was nothing more common in that House than to regulate all its proceeding.; by the spirit of the law ; therefore the Learned Gentleman was not correct in putting construction on the law according to its strict letter, No Judge was ever bound to construe the law ac cording to the technicality by which it was worded. He was also alarmed by what the Learned Gentle. man said, of the Crown having aright to keep up a force which it had once got into its possession. He never heard any prerogative doctrine more unconsti. tutional or dangerous than this. The force in ques. tion could not be kept up when all the causes for it had ceaicd. There was now no fear of invasion from America—there was no reason to apprehend that Mr. Macdonough's fleet would come and mike a descent upon England ; and why keep up this force / There was no insurrection—no rebellion —no, rt O r danger thereof. As to the recommendation to keep up a standing army, it only meant that such a force might be maintained which the Crown could keep up, and not that . the King should uphold a force which the law forbad, unless under circumstances which did not now exist. Therefore it became the duty of that House to exert its constitutional jealous? on this occasion. 1... . Mr. CHARLES GRANT contended, that it did not follow, that the Militia ought to be disembodied, merely on account of the causes having ceased. The momentary cessation of the causer did not make it obligatory on the King to do so; nor did the Act require that of the. King. The Legislature had not even such a construction of the Act in contemplation. It was not intended that the force should be at the controul of Parjiament. Tice Honoprable Gen, demon entered into a history of the Militia, and sbewed that the Militia, had been kept emhodled at times when the army was wanted for other purposes, and when none of tte tour causes in question existed. It had been kept up as auxiliaiy to foreign objects. Whenever the Militia had berm employed to fill up the gap made by keeping the army in foreign countries, no objection was ever made to that. Although he did not consider 'Europe as being in a distracted state, yet he saw many and suf. ficient grounds for employing an army on the Coo, tinent. There were many and great objects to Ag a attained ; every Power on the Continent found it fie•. cessary to keep up great standing armies ; and it wait' highly proper for this country to keep up a regal rr force there, in order that they might be diposahle let • any great object that might arise out of the prtsent state of affairs. Therefore the Militia ought to Wimp: at home to serve as a substitute for the standing army. Mr. P. MOORE contended. that to Ic..ep op the Militia, when there was no necessity for so doirg, Was a gross breach of faith to the country, besid:s being a violation of tie Constitu.ion. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY spoke in reply, and strongly combated the argument of the Solicirlr-Ge. neral, that the King Lad the right to keep tbe Militia embodied as long as he conceived it expedient. Alter an explanation fr. in Lnrd PaLaseurrow, the House divided.—For the motion, 32—Against it, 97, ARMY TSTIMATES. The House resolved itself tato a Committee on the Army Estimates._ The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated, that at the present time it WAS 11CCesamy to keep up a large force, in consequence of the war wittt America, and other causes. Considerable reductions however, had taken place in the army. Twenty t!d battalions had been reduced ; there was also a reduc, tion in cavalry and artillery. Lord PALM2RSTON moved to grant the suns of £135,000 for the service of the Militia remaining embodied from December, 1814, to Julie, 1815. Mr. WHITBREAD declared, that the whole sys tem and spirit of the Militia had been long since broken down by the Government. Mr. BATHURST replied, that it was by this sys. tern the country had recruited her armies, and was enabled to make such great exertion. The motion was agreed to. It was next moved to grant the sum of £55,000 for defraying the charges attending volunteer corps. Mr. J. P. GRANT asked, if it had not been re solved on a former!day, to give up the volunteer corps, and why should the present vote be required Lord PALMERS CON said, the vote had been withdrawn not with a view to drop it, but to recon sider it, as the returns had nct been received from Ireland. A reduction had taken place in Ireland in the volunteers to the amount of 02120,000, and this was only the estimate of the permanent Staff, after such a reduction was made. About 858,000 would be now the whole annual charge for Ireland, and *35,000 for Great Britain. Every Gentleman would acknowledgethat this force was the most constitutional and the best calculated for internal defence, while at the same time it was the most economical; it zliiefly consisted of the landed property of the country, and would answer all the purposes of preserving tranquil lity much better than any standing army could. It was only proposed to keep it up till next summer. Mr. P. GRANT said, his ohjection went not to the force in question, but to the profuse administration of the country, than which there could not be a greater cline. • The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER supported the vote. Mr. PELE thought the vote highly necessary S i far as Ireland was concerned ; anti he :assured the House, there was no ground to charge the Irish Go vernment with a profuse expenditure in keeping up the volunteer force of Ireland, where, since, lb I'l, the expenses were reduced from se$:)0,000 to itss,outh Mr. WHITBREAD expressed his surprise that the Noble Lord had given no explanation for the cote. He would ask, why in time of peace an armed poke was to be kept on foot ? What itad the YeotamiTY done latterly ? The war was at an end, and there wis no necessity for them. For his part, he had tic dispo sition to keep up the volunteer to: ce at all, and thane hire be would appose the vote. Lord PALMERSTON said, he had that day re ceived a letter from a very respectable Gent! man at the head of a volunteer corps, expressing the greatest concern at the report, that the corps was to be broke