Star. — London, England, 1817-05-13 00:00:00

following were the *aft prominent statements : The Guard' h'sd not this year been exempted from searing their share In the reductiOn ; for from each cc le rF any in the Guards thele had been a reduction , st one terjesnt and ten men. The total number of :Ilea reduced from the Regimenti of the Line in we last year were taken at eighteen thousand.— 'l% e evens... of the recruitak depirtment for this • wire iakenot £130,000 kiss than they were last fear. In the Staff great reductions had also been laa. 4 e. In this department two hunched and 'fifty fficers vole reduced. The vatic depart inclas and offices were those in which the least - re es had been mole, and it was easy to explain ed.) Owl - were the branches of the public service in reduction at this time was least practicable. • whole amount of the reductions in the public o ,i c es was between 419,000 and £20,000. When t!:e nature of these offices was considered—when it vas canAdered that the very process of reduction for t.e time increased the amount of business in these de --ments it would be admitted that these were not t! . e apartments is which Vie:greatest reductions could be expected. is the Office of the Commander j ; , Chief particularly there was a source of business a'aich perhaps Could not be considered as likely to b: permanent; but yet which for the time was occd. pored by the process of reduction. Many Officers o u r service being placed noise half pay, feeling their capacity for the public service, naturally came ;cresol and submitted their claims to be employed to t he Cemosapcler in Chief. He Was sure the House wouldsvin,patfiise in the situation of these persons...- Cl/tar, hear, hear.) And he was also sore that the H a ag would not.carry the reductions so far as even to deprive the Commander in Chief of attending to such claims, and giving the claimants at least • the poor satisfaction of knowing that their claims were sot mated with neglect. The Committee would see by the statement in the Report of the Committee of linaw.e, that considerable reductions were made in Lis (Lord Palmerston's) department. tut as to that branch of the department in whit!' the cdrrespon. donee was conducted there could not be any reduc tion at all. The number of letters of authority and of warrants inserted in the books of the Office affor sad the best criterion as to this. Intihe year ending the 17th of March, 1791, 'the number of letters in las department was 7004 s in the year ending in March, 1800, the number wan; 14,703; in the year ending in March, 1816, it was 92,320; id the year ending March, 4817, the number had increased to 1045,304.. So far, therefore, as reduction could be' funded on the diminution of business, it would be allowed, that at least in this department the reduc. tiun could not yet be made. The number of clerks in the War Office bad also been considerably redu ced. Among others, he stated that the number of clerks of the highest class bad hecn reduced from six to ism A similar reduction was made in the se-• bond class. The chief inspector of the foreign branch, ate had a salary of 5e1,095 a year, was also reduced. Several clerks in Mini* departments had been re duced, and, betides, several vacancies occurring, from death or resignation, had not been filled up.— On the whole of this, departritent, compared with last rear, ahere, was a re4ction in the expense to the amount of £5,921,00y. In the Adjutant-General's tkparinient there was a reduction to the extent of 44000. In• the Qaarter knot! General's Depart. mint, 111736. lit.the Departniedt.of the Coninais sary General of Musters,. i1i1716., In the Volunteers there was ti reduction to the anti:Amt. of 43407. In the Military College' there was a redaction of 51i5.564. As to this itein, he was bound to .notice the very Eatehome eonduCt of the GoSernor of that College, (Major-General the Honourable Alexander Hope) who, when called upon to state what reductions could be made in that department, began by .draw lug his pen through £SOO a year,. the allowance of • his own table. This certainly was only such conduct • 9 was to be expected by thcise who knew the cha racter of the gallant officer. In the sum for pay of General Officers, there was a diminution of 43620, which arose from the casualties during "the year.— Since 1814, 'when the arrangement now acted upon with respect to the pay of General Officers was in. troduced, fifty-four _Genetal Officers had died. It i.as intended, pursuant to the Report of the Com mittee of Finance, to alter the arrangement by which there were noir three rates of pay fur General Offs . - cers, by assimilating rite pay of Generals and Untie. amt. Generals, instead of having, as now, one rate ter blajor.Generals, one fOr Lieutenanc.Uenerals, and a third fer Generals. It was intended for the faterethA Olken promoted to the rank of Gene rals should nut receive the unallotted pay till the 4 hole number of General Offioers was reduced to i 2o "vhich was intended to be the number to which z.helierinaneat estakahment would be limited. In the estimates for the present year, those for the dif. ferent garrisons were separated from the Staff. un der the vecond of the four classes into which be had divided the military establishmeots, namely, that which included the half-pay and pensions, there was maltreats in the present year to the amount of 195 8.00(); the obvious cause of which was the reduce tints which had taken place. In the third class there was a seduction_ot. 5e238.000. In consequence of tae Report of the CoMmittee of Finance. a new sr :clement was proposed with respect to - pensions and allowances to wounded officers. He would take leave to say, that he did not entirely approve of a arrangemeij. According to that now acted Von, the ainount of the pension increased with the •ank of the officer. . What was now intended was .-h at all officers for the future should receive the pen-' nun only for the rank which they held ar the 'tithe "ley received the wound. There had been an in. g edke its the allewances for superannuations in Ex. 'liequr fees. There was a diminution in the pre terit year to the extent a 492,000. The 'MTh Bar. racks and the Irish Comnaisiariat were not inCluded 'p the Es t i mates f o r t h e present y ear . O n a genera l vow of the amount of the whole Estimate", there vas 4 diminution of 41,800,000, , as tombiliell with %ela n year. The total amount of 'the Esiiiiiines the present year was 16,682,0q0. From this, h "'nete was to be deducted the redactions which were now in progress and would be contplitied in the cootie of the year, and the amount would then be itt!cass MOO. But of this sum *gain it was to be ton. st ied that a great part was required for the third : 144, which included the remuneration of past' ler-, IN which amounted to about 0,591,000, leasing' th total amount of the Estimates for the active set vices of tle'rewot year, iirs.7a4,ooo for the firit class. In 1703, the amount of the Estimates for ac• tive service was 23.059,000, an 1 in 1791, after seve , r.,1 years ..1 l rotound peace, it was 5e1,626,000. Whn it Was tonsideted that th • amount of the fol. ;hers' pay w as d ou bl e d s i nce 1 7 91, and that the Co .onies and p , tsessi ins of the kingdom were now so much more extensive than they then were, it would not be wondered that the Estimates of this year were now only about 8500,000, more than double what they were in 1791. The Noble Lord concluded by moving the F t st Resolution. "That a number Warren, not exceeding 121,035, for land form s, be voted for the service of hit Majesty in the present year." Mr. CALCRAFT thought the force proposed much too large for the circumstances of the country. With respect to the Report of the Finante Committee, as he did not become a Member of that Committee until after the Second Report was drawn up, he did not hold himselt responsible for any part of that Re port; end, he could not help observing, as to that Report, that it was very extraordinary that establish. ments shou'd be voted, or their amount determined, before the statement of the probable income of the year was laid before the House. In 1792. all the services now to be performed, were performed by 40,000 less than the nureber now required, excluding the force in France. He did not mean to say that the establishment of 179 was capable of perforining the services now required. But Ministers were at least bound to thew the reason for so prodigious an increase. With respect to the Colonies, he could not , help observing with satisfaction, that the numbers Wiled completely w i t h t h ose h e hi mse lf had pro- " posed as sufficient last year; though he was then told that no reduction could be made. In more than , five or six instances the present numbers tallied with what he had then proposed, so that Minis ters had adopted the opinions of himself and his friends ; but, on this occasion, he must say, they were a full year in atrear of their duty, as they ought to have made those very deductions a year ago. Nu doubt next year they would find, that what they think impossible now can be done then. For the consider able reductions that had already beets made, the country was, in his opinion, indebted to the firmness of the House in refusing the Income Tax and the Malt Tax. and also to the debates on the Army Establishment. it it had not been for the discussions that had taken place, though apparently disregarded at the time, be was convinced that we' should not have seen the reduced establiehments of the present. day, but which, as taken altogether at 140,000 men, lee still thought too high. The Gentlemen opposite ought to explain why this force is necessary. There were 17,000 Yeomanry Cavalry in addition to this large force, merely for the service of Great lititaiii. , In 1.792 a force of 12,000 men was found amply sufficient. How came it that the country *as in so different a State now as to require such an addition ? It was knOin that the grievances of the people atone very much frem the burdens of taxation; and it this amount of force was to be kept up. it must be seen that at would be impossible to diminish these burdens. Now, if Gentlemen thought that a large military establishment was better than to relieve the public front their burdens, he must beg leave to say that he totally differed from them. Delieving, -however, that still farther reductions were in progress. be should nor go into inioute details at present ; but there were one or two topics which he could not help touching on. The first was, the subjein of foreign 11.4101. Many foreign officera.who received halt-pay were now in Hanover on full pay and in actual service. He hought this a most improvident regulation, and one • which aught to be corrected. Another topic was the half-pay officers reduced before the 24th June, 1914. Their case was extremely hard, as being•limited to the old rates of half-pay; and thus a partiality or , •preference was shewn to foreign officers • who had , .served in our army. It did nut appear to him that the reductions had been sufficiently extensive in the public departments connected with the- army. He did not think that of the Commander in Chid likely to be sufficiently reduced f . bot he 'would press upon • Ministers the necessity of reducing that, and every other department. to the lowest possible rate that is at all compatible with the business they have to transact. It he saw any chance of being supported, he should move for a considerable reduction to be made m the present established force, as being too large for the circbmstancesot the cranny. He hoped the Noble Lord would yet give some explanation of the necessity of maintaining so large a force. Mr. LYTTLETON could not retrain from calling the attention of the Committee to the half-pay of our Officers both of the Army and Navy ; though he should only indirectly touch on the latter, as not cen fleeted with the subject under consideration. The case of the officers in both services was this: When ; they receive their balf-pay. they are obliged to make an 'affidavit that they do not receive any other enio;. lument under the Crown. This might have been a good regulation formerly ; but tit present he did not see any reason to induce Government, whether from economy, or any other circumstance, to adhere to it now. The Noble Lord had admitted, that reductions. •in the Army caused great distress; • and this was the time, of all others, when officers were suffering the greatest degree of distress, owing to the extreme pressure of taxation, and the increase of the number of these persons. The Jicineuritble Gentleman spoke in behalf Of those meritorious Gentlemen, whose half pi Was not merely a bare remuneration for their past, but a boon for tbeit future services ; under these grounds,be argued for the policy of their obtain : ing the Mearisof igenteel siabsisience by being allowed to till civil offices, whieji Mat be filled by somebody. He tonellidid with hoping thatlbese excluding sffi-, daviti Would be alicifithect; • Oedetal WALPOLE objected to .the amoht•of force aaPropriated to the defence Of the West7'l . lk Colonies, particularly that at the Bermudas. Mr. WAIME condasted 'the amount of the Life. Onards at present with theft establishMent in 1796, when they only Consisted of 873 men. They were, I now abstoutely.double what they were, at that time ; , and in his opinion, they were kept up merely for shew an d splendour. e tan adv.erted to the force io the ehaish fur, WhiCh in 1802 ' was only' 4,;81a+ but t ' /8018.. The total charge for the Staff in the Nooses Sitin 1114,000, while in 1792 ' it wail only led,oo(ti and eras now surgblat that in theari, more than treble !Whitt it was • 18020 It was Windward and Leeward islands, the Staff . exceeded what it was for the whole of the Colonies in 1792. . . . . He then alludsel to the Cortpass:entte Fund, the principles (if which he praised. He wished to see it inn - eased, on account of the numerous families who received benefit from it, and Le I:nped s AMC addition would he made to it. He tocA On; opportunity of asking whether Lord CAmder's example had been followed by any other Gent!,,nner. Lord PA LfslEllfl'ON in .reply, denied that the garrisons were precisely the amount of what the Ho nourable Gentleman ( MY. Celcraft) had suggested lae . t year. Bin he dro.ught.it.hard and unfair, if they were, that Ministers should be accused and censured for doing what he fLid recommended. With respect to the Hanoverian Officers, Lc had stated, that their time of service being4iinited. - they could not by law be called back to qmployment in this conntry on Lull pay, while Useful] pay in the.ilanoverian service was not quite equal to the half-pay in this. It was deemed desirable to have the benefit of the services of these Officers in Haeover, as they had made a distinguished figure under. the. Duke of Wellington ; and there was no mode of accomplishing this, but by permitting them to retain their half-pay, which made no pecuniary 4ifferenre to the public, because they could not he employed in this country.— Respecting the addition made to thehalf•payin 1814, the ride was, that the augmented regulation was to be given to all officers reduced subsequent to that date in 1814. It was thought there was not sufficient ground for gitiag the increase to Officers who had not come forward to offer their servicei . during the war.. - Respecting die force in Jamaica, he showed t that it was now, only increabed by 300 men more than in December, 1792, when It was 2,900, it being now 3,200. .The Life Guards and Blues were placed on the same establishment as the other regiments of cavalry, and there was no reason why they should be of a lower amount than those other regiments that were efeenied efficient, as they had must important duties to perform, As to the Staff, any person at all acquainted niith the alteration that had taken . place in the internal state of the army, must know, that a much greater Staff was necessary now than at the orthe last .war. It would remain for the House todecide wileiher they thought, the advantage, in point of discipline, would justify the increase r He would venture to say, that as long as the present or. ganization'ot the military force existed, it Would be impossible to revert to the same Staff as at the period alluded to. Some persons were of opinion, that in many of our Colonies we had even some below. what -we ought. ' With regard to the pripciple on winds the alloirentes nf' the Compassionate Fund were framed,. he didnot . thlrik a,ny considerable addition could made' o the scale of them, without throwing a great burden on the public. . . . General FERGUSSON solicited the particular at tention of his Majesty's Government towards the' re. lief of regiments serving in • the West ladies. One great amelioration had been, he . was happy to think, alreidy effected, by putting an end to the practice of drafting the snyvivors of reginunt's ordered home, into these lately arrived. • There was au instance, of which he could sp:ak with cert.:Lay, and to the effects of which he implored .the House and his Majesty's Government to attend. Four Compenios of Artil lery were generally stationed in Fit Charles, in the island of Jamaica. When these men were seat istos , there existed in their minds a hoplessness and: Jopdir of ever returning to their native country.. Thecon sequence of such a mortified and desperate state of mind via's, that they surrendered themselves to drun• kermess and every species of crime. Of course, the relaxation of discipline, and the increase of punish ments, kept pace. Thank Gonecorporal punishment in the Britiph Army bad decreased most rapidly, and superior discipline tolloyled ; but lie.must be obliged. to state, that amenglt three' hundred men in these 'four compatiles,in the spate of two years 54,0(X) lashes were infl.cted. One of these companies bad been in the colony 27, another 2t, and a third 15 years.— The deaths in two of them had hsen two hundred. He might. be told that the evil was at an end, as .these companies'were removed. Bin the same crimes and ether evil 'consequences would follow, unless it was held out to the men going out, that they were to be relieved iiksix-or seven years. Goo forbidthat any consideration of the expense of the frequent re moval. should 'evet induce the country to economize at the loss of hutirliii life. The artillery were not in .the department of his Royal Highness the Commen der-in-Chiel; or he was confident the remedy would 'have been long before applied —(Heer, hear, luar).— He feared the terror of being sent to the West Ladies was sometimes held out towards those in the artillery perhaps inclined to find fault. General PHIPI'S considered the observitiOns of the Htnourible General respecting these artillerymen to be an attack on the Noble Lord at the head of the Ordnance Department. General FERGUSSON denied that any attack on the Master-General of the Ordnance was either made or intended, and therefore there could be no ground fur the warmth 01 the gallant officer. The facts were only stated with a reference to future attention. They could not• apply to the present Master-General, as they adverted to the proceedings of twenty.seven . years - past, when his Noule relation had no connec tion'with the Ordnance. Mr. PQNSONISY coincided with his gallant friend that nothing like attack was intended.; it was t:te system that was reprObated ; .and surely twenty•seven years was a long period for the continuance of such an abuse without any check until the present the. Lord NI.JqEiN*I declared, that he gave his sin cere and hearty opposition to the amount of the esia blishment, should not trust to the Noble Lord's astortnieof firtherWductions, because the same aa snfances- were.given last year; hut it %!;its not. till air ter tbiHtinseAffsd-foiseiie the Estimates to be with. drawtr- that. tbey. were Mont* forward with reduc tions. Thipitriniage and influence Which ouch an . Army gave to the Crown in time of peace was far from being the head ana front of the offending 1" When he saw an actual armed force of one hundred and forty thousand men,inthe pay at the King, and at the disposal of an Administtatioa which he dis trusted, and whose political principles be was tat from subscribing to, his alarm was snitch increased. It was the duty' of every man to feel jealous for the free Constitution of his Country, and to remind his conarymen.of the-doctrines to which we owe our freedom. There .could be found no instance in which a free country had ever long survived a despotic' bli litary Establishment, and no instance of the libertir of a people being over.hrown but by the agency of a large standing arm 7 (H er , ter, 'car ) Mr. CURWEN r.o one could deny the danger was great ; but this was not the time to form An opinion on what line of cueduct shou'd be adopt d. Every thing wo u ld dernd upon Ascertainino the state of the finance of di? country. Tell thui was made clear, he could not say to tAt.it went his opi nion would gn as to the airon4t of the Army that ought to be maintained. Sir WILLIAM BuitROUGHS observed, that the armed force now proposed doubled the amount at the former peace, and this with the addition of t.O thousand yeomanry. He would venture to assert, that no rational expectation .of .0 war now existed ; and if it were u•berwise, we had Allies to look to themselves poaerlurtif prepared, and pledged to act in concert with us. 15 , -.sides, there was no instiFcp.- lion et the force as:ii4nl.l to foreizq stations. It wis three times the ;walnut of that provided in times et profound peace. 'There. were three times the men coupled with three tine; the expense which had bsca experienced in former tinws. Mr. GOULBUR N, in reply to the last mentioned Baronet.regretted that he had been so recent a Mtnn- Iker of the Wuse As not to bate heard what was said on the sut:ject of the Colonial Estableshmenti last Session, when the necessity of the forces there was clearly made our, And acknowledged by the Gentle. men opposite. He justified tl'e present Colonial armies, as necessary to preserve their sllmv.tic tran quillity. So far from Ministers being bl.snied lor proposing excessive Establishments. be thought they were rather open to blame for risking something, in order to satisfy the general cry for Economy and Re trenchment. The Honourable Batoote weaned not to be aware that the 110,b00 men incintltj the large garrisons for India. Sir WILLIAM BURROUGUS its expiantion, said, that ;India had been attached by mildnrss, while the case was different here. Could it be supposed that the people of this country had increased in their afec. ttonate regard to its Government. where IN military had in:reased horn. 15• to SIMHX) In a fe ' w years ? Was the representative Potentate of this couttury nnw reigning in the people's hearts I—(llear, hear.) 11 he so reigned, as he would trust he did, where was the necessity of so large a trlirary force ? He yet hoped that his Majesty's .Ministers would recoosi.:;:r ..!n.l re duce the military estimates they had zuSmitted to the House, and adopt a system ut c. ncili.aic,n iather than of coercion. Lord CASTLEREACII protested a7einst the mode the Hon. Baronet had adopted of O,T-toeing the groat amount orthe descriptions of lore- to gether, including yeomanry, and the army in France, and commeeting upon them as if they were all main tained at the expose sf England. the Gentlemen opposite. he observed. v..ere not ditposed to impeach Elie estimate. Cr.ainly the Gove•renent of I idi w. s entitled to all the praise of the Hun. Baronet ; for u ore mild and liberal Government did not eels.. But t e people there here attached to the Goletroneut ; f r they bad not been corrupted by the pia - Mei:re% and disorganizing principles mid doctrines of the French Revolution. 'lee Noble Lord proceeded to convince the Hon. baronet of his erroneous estimaeo, by re teeing to the different forces ; and observed that in 'stead of having rto,ono tor the Briti s h EieTi re , we bed only 80,000, wfirel !Meier, though voted by Parliament, always fell sheet of the amount. With reepect to the Colonial Gli r.sons ebro Id, !is Mon ti 36 noble Friend (Mr. Goulburn) had %hewed that they were 0 ly a fraction bereund what they were in the year 179'2, exclusive of the number nezessAry for the six new Colonies we had acquired. '(Near.) Ties Honourable Baronet reel only ask the ut the Jamaica hiurc!).mtc, to know whether Govern ment had notde an extrAvegaie provision tor -Lanai:: t and the Leeward Is and ? tXhai it was remembered that since 1%2 we had beceme possessed of lthlta, the lonian LLs, the Cape Cerod Hope, and many other possessions, theefurce set apart tor tee Colonies could not be thought too gear. The only point on which a question could arise, sees ten the number of troops kept up in England and Ireland, And this bad been so fully gene into last )ear, that it was almost a waste of time to enter into it now. Ot the iiiiniber of men proposed to be voted for England, when the WOO allowed for reliefs were deducted, and other circumstances were taken into consideration, the numberoet really effective men that would remain would not be expected to exceed sateen thousand. He Omitted the country must, in a great measure, rely on the Yeomanry for safety ; but these were nit .fitted for every day duty, as they could not se celled out without putting the individuals compositt; it to coesiderable inconvenience, and they could not Se expected to serve in the Docks, or in other places where the presence of troops was constantly •necessary. The situation of the country was much altered since 1792. At that time the country had .abandaued 'all system in its•army—( Hier, I k ea.).--• Our army had in fact been made wince that period. He did not mean to say that the Pnitish army had not alwayi been distinguished for its !TANI:: conduct in the field, but it was since 1792 that the machine had been put in motion, such as it now appeared, re. gulated as it was by its illustrious Commander-in- Chief, whose 'unremitting labours had at length brought it to .a state of unexampled perfection. The question was nowe should we have an Army, or should we not ? It we had an Army, we must bare a Staff to manage it.' Phe Staff now proposed to be kept up, he contended was nut at all too great, if, in souse instances, it had not been left imperfect.. The best proof that could be given of this was found le the conduct of the Gentlemen opposite. If a smited objection could hare been urged against the estimate they, would not have failed to bring forward soote specific motion for the reduction of them. • 'Mi. CA LCRAF•E s lid, as the Noble Lord seemed to think Geutlem:non that side of the H..use were not • in earneir, since they had brought forward no specifx motion, he would pledge himself to gratify 1 • on a future occasion by moving a reduction e f• the Esti. maks on the bringilig up of the Repose Lord CASTLE.REAGH begged leave to assure the Hononrable Gentleman, that if lie only proposed to bring forward a motion of 'the nature just an-, nounced, to gratify him ( Lord Castlereagh ), he might ' stare himself the trouble—(A /ausies)—He had only :Omit tO.sat i .that it the Honourable Gentleman had limighthu entalet {persuade the House to take a view ut the subject different irons the taken last Session, he would not ' wt vrta;cit they had hart faded to pro-