Star. — London, England, 1814-11-12 00:00:00

after the militia were called out. In all the instances indeed, the militia were continued embodied long after all danger of invasion had ceased. In the late war, for example, all danger of invasion had ceased after the remnant of the French army returned from Moscow, at which period, if the principles of the Noble Lord were to have been adopted, the militia ought immediately to have been disembodied. This served to prove the erroneous construction which the Noble Lord had put upon the Militia Laws—a construction which was at variance with all the prac tice upon the subject. As to the supposition of the Noble Lord that he (Viscount Sidmouth) had hinted at any danger of invasion from America it was com pletely unfounded—all he had stated was, that the foreign and domestic calls for military service ren dered it necessary that the militia should be continued embedied, and however he might lament the incon 'venience of the burden that thereby ensued, the exi gencies of the public servicesendered it imperative. The Earl of DONOUGHMORE observed, that what had been already said upon the question imme diately before the House; rendered it unnecessary for him to enter at length upon that subject. He could not, however, help observing upon the partiality which appeared to have been observed in continuing some regunents of militia embodied, and disembodying others, and on the vacillation Which seemed to have marked the conduct of Ministers upon this point.— Whilst imetertent negociaticeis Jere under their care abroad, airy seem to have nothing to do at home but to attend to the military service, and yet upon this subject the strangest inconsistency had occurred.— . His Noble Friend had, he thought, given an . amply sufficient answer to the Noble Viscount as to the le. gality of 'continuing part of *the Militia embodied. The Neble Viscount, however; :seemed to intimate that this was to be so far rendered a permanent mta sure, that a spacial Act of Parliament was to be pro posed to regulete it. Why this should take place without some bette r reason being assigned for it, he was at a loss to understand ' • certain he was, how ever, that the proceedings of Ministers in disembody. ing some regiments of militia, and continuing others embodied, ought to be looked to with a watchful and jealous eye. The continuing the Militia embodied, for instance, in the district of which his Noble Friend (Earl Fiiewilliam) was the natural protector, was a grievous burden, whilst in Leland it was far from being a burden, it was looked up to as a service of advantage and emolument, and afforded a considera ble patronage to the Government. It ought not, however, to - be endured that the Government should Convert into a, source of patronage this partial mea sure of continuing embodied a certain portion of the bl litia. What were the actual intentions of Minis. ter s, be knew trot, but certainly in Ireland there had been a strange jumble of marching and counter. =arching, order and counter-order. • Nothing could be rune ridiculous, for instance, than their indecision respecting' a tan military question. The cavalry barracks at Cabir had been delivered up two years ego in a perfect state, whilst in the barracks of Clon ntell, where the lath Dragocns were quartered, corn pleiats were made that they were not sufficiently ac .cdnimodated, and the infantry there also complained tetee airy were too much pressed upon by the cavalry. In easier to these complaints, it was intimated that Government had had before them for three months a, question respecting the racks and mangers, but had not yet come to any determination upon it. Seriously, heerCrer, some informaii in ought to be laid before the *Jettse as to that state of the Continent, which, ac. cording to the Noble Viscount, created the necessity of this paitiJi measure, regarding the Militia. Upon .this subject there never was a speech so remarkable tor giving such little information as the Speech re cently Lielieered from the Throne, or as to any reason or necessity for calling Parliament together, With respect to Ireland, Ministers seemed to have forgotten that t i tre was any such country forming a part of the United Kingdom. Mut a word was said relating to it. It neglit have been thought, that after what, passed towerds the close of the last Session, something tti ould have been said. At that period 'two Bills were passed, ime of which was for the revival of the Act, known by the name of the Insurrection Act; and the other, for went of some more appropriate name, haci received that of the Gentleman, 'who, as Secretary, Managed the affairs of Ireland, and who ilists-sup . posed to take a particular interest in the measure, and was commonly called Mr. Peele's Bill. These mea sures were _proposed at a time when nearly all the Irish Members were.absent, and without any of that eiscussion or consideration which subjects of such ire. 1; a taller demanded. He wished to ask whether either of these me 'sures had been carried into execution in .eny lieu t.f Ireland, and if so, with what effect ? In a part of Ireland with which ho was more immediately connected, he lied o b jected to the introduction of the operation of Mr. Peele's Bill, because there was no previous experience of any such measure, whilst with respect to the Insurrectioo Act they had experience of the rperation of the former Act of that nature. It was . gattisis ground that be objected to the preference given by 'die Government to Mr. Peek's Bill. • He likewise visited to ask Ministers a question relative to a sub. • ject'whith they wished probably to forget altogether w eek alluded.to the Catholic Question. The person *hose situation it was alleged was the principal ob slack Vio the concessions to the Catholics, had shied been restored' to his former territories and high functions, through the exertions of Ministers; and he wished to know whether, that main objection being nnw done away, it was the intention of Ministerl to propose any measure for the relief of his Majesty i g Catholic subjects ? • The Earl of LIVERPOOL, with respect to the Militia, oeservid that his Noble Friend (Lord Sid= mouth) had been misunderstood with regard to the bill intended to be proposed. It was by no means a Permanent measure, as the• Noble Earl who had just sat down seemed to suppose, but merely' this, that for whatever time the Militia continued embodied the counties and townships should be exonerated horn the expense. He lamented as much as any one the burden raid inconvenience to which individuals were exposed byca - itinuing the Militia embodied, but it might - be..relied upon that it wouldno longer be. coutineed. than the extgeocies of the public service required. With regard 1011'0and, he was not aware that the Bills • 4 twavisich' she Nnble Earl had alludtd, - had beedapphard rnarnthaa one instant, ; but he was peri4ded. *at they Mid operated in th way in t4ich*S l ,f shrli s ‘, l l,oll . laniedi namely, as preveii. due meattlres; and that to them the tranquil state of the country was in a great measure to be attributed. , With respect to the question regarding the Roman . Catholics, the Noble Earl must be aware of what his (Lord Liverpool's) sentiments were upon that point, and that though he more particularly objected to the proposed concessions to the Roman Catholics on the ground of the then situation of the Sovereign of Rome, yet that he had also other and strong objec. tions to these concessions. As to the want of infor mation regarding the state of the Continent , it was of course the inevitable result of the pendency of ne gociations involving complicated and most important interests, and dining the pendency of which it of course followed that no information respecting them could be communicated to Parliament. • The Marquis. of BUCKINGHAM observed that the Noble Viscount (Lord Sidmouth)had been singu larly unfortunate in his remarks on the historical de tails of his Noble Relative (Lord Grenville). The Noble Viscount had said, that at the beginning of the seven years-war there was no danger of invasion ; now, the fact was, in 17.56 so great was the danger of invasion, that German troops were called into this country in the. contemplation of that event. As to the -American war the NObli recount had answered himself by stating, that there Wert . only WOO men in the country at the time. In 1792, at the beginning of the French war, it was true there was not much danger of 'invasion, but the danger of insurrection, which was one of tae contingencies st ited in the Act as proper fur the exercise of the Royal prerogative calling out the Militia, was imminent. The country on that occasion were convinced of the necessity, and gave credit to the Ministry for the motive. The mo tives now alleged were the internal and-external calls for a military force. As to the necessity for troops to provide (or the garrisons at home, to call out the Militia for this purpose, while we were at peace with all the Powers of Europe, and with a large regular force not employed in active service, was a violation of the law and usage respecting this force. And as to the foreign calls for British troops the Prince Re gent's Ministers were not justified in coming to Parlia went with this plea, when they refused to comniuni- . cate even the fact of their being continued on tilt Continent since the conclusion of the peace. (Iloar.)' As their Lordships were ignorant of any grounds on, which British troops could be employed abroad, and`, at peace not only with Europe but with every touts,' try from which a possibility of invasion coutd arise," they Fad su ffi cient motives for agreeing to the motion.l Lord GRENVILLE said he did not intend to prolong the discussion on a subjeit on which his No, ble relative had left him little to say, but to justify himself from the charge of being mistaken in the his torical details which Fe had thought necessary!o bring; to their Lordsliips' recollection. He never had as serted that theComusittees respecting the calliog out the Militia, In 1792, had been formed in that year; but he bad mentioned those Committees as a proof that danger of insurrection had ezisted..• The proceed. ings of the Committees also turnished an answer to the question which the Noble Viscount (Stdmouth) bad triumphantly asked, whether the danger of insurreo. Lion had not been iinniediately extinguished ? since it would be seen a year after, from the details laid on the tables of those Committees, that the danger had, not disappeared. The result of the details which he had adduced was, that the Militia. iu burner tunes, had never been called out and embodied but undar - I the danger of insurrection or invasion, and that when, embo.fied it was never kept up but when we were at war with powers within a few hours sail of our own ,:oasts. Did the Noble Viscohnt, when he denied that there was a danger of invasion is 1778, remember thel defenceless state of Ireland at that time, and the et-', traordinarY measures to which, for the purpose ofl guarding against invasion, the Govermir nt of that country was obliged to resort ? Did he l',rget the im mense political consequences which were the results if those measures ?. Did he forget that all our army was at that 'time in America; that in Ireland there were no regular troops; that in England there were only 6000; that France, our enemy, was disengaged from any contineetal quarrel ; that Spain was at li berty to employ its power against us ? It was in vain to deny it—trio necessity for keeping up the Militia' at present, arose solely from our maintaining a Lire part of our regular force on the Continent. This res uilt ,tendered it necessary for the House to investigate Avery branch of that subject—whether there was any authority for such a proceeding—whether the circum itances of the present time justified it—and whether, if the necessity and expediency were made manifest, At full representation should not have been made to Parliament, of a step which involved such an impor tant consequence, not merely as the N..bLe E.ul f Liverpool) opposite had said, whether one county fht,uld pay a kw pounds more than another—but she par ial and unequal selection from among the r subjects of this realnr, e f persons to be kept in time of peace in military array, subjected to military command and military punishment ? The Mozion w..s negatived. Butrisit ritooes ABROAD. Th e Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that he should, on Monday, move for an Address for the Communication of the Engagements entered into by this country with Foreign Powers, for the Main tenance of British Troops on the Continent. It would not be necessary to enter into farther detail respecting that motion, and he should merely move that their Lordships be summoned for that day. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that he had stated at the. close of the last Session of Parliament, that there was an engagement in which this country had stipulated to keep up a force on the Continent.— From circumstances the ratification had not been re rceived by Government, though we bad ratified that Treaty. He was not aware, therefore, that it would be correct to lay the Treaty in form before Pdrlia• went, but he had no doubt, but that without any mo. Lion on the subject, he should be enabled to lay be fore the House the substance of the 'Treaty. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE thought it his duty to persist in his notice, as he thought it would be more convenient that any discussion on the subject should take place on the day he had stated, though probably the Noble Earl would be able to state grounds to induce kim to withdraw or alter the form of his motion. The Lords were then ordered tole sum moned on Monday next. FAFTA llnsfi _Marquis of BUCKINGHAIIigan notice, iitooka ou Monday novo fox *copy of the proceedings tithe Court MartislotsCaptgo Bare Pay, land the officers and man remaining, in consequence of the destructions( oar fleet on Lake Erie Tile ob ject of this motion was' not to throw any imputation , on the officers and men who 114 been honourably ac• I quitted, but to show the inadequateness of our force on the Laks's at the time in question, to the protec tion of our Colutties.—Adjourned to Monday. HOUSE OF COMMONS. . , The SPEAKER informed the House, that In pursuance of their resolution, the Address of the Howe had ben pre,ented to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, who hail delivered a most gracious answer, thanking them for their loyal acid :Wilful Addre.si the sentiment' it contained afforded treah proofs of their attachment to hls Majesty's House and Government, arid had greatly contributed to advance this empire to an *eminence among the nations of the world. Mr. WRO ri . ESLEY moved fin...conies of all Memorials and Statements delivered to the Clerks of riot Peace for the counties in England and Wales, relative to Charitable Dona:tom.— . Ordered. Mr. WARD brought up ast Accntmt of all outstanding Exche quer Bills for last year, and all Bills of Exchange for the Extra• ordinaries of the Army. Mr. MANNING pi esented a Petition from the London Dock Company, praying for leave to bring In a Bill to amend the London Dock Act. Mr. CROKER brought up an account of the Navy Arrears. After some conversaion between Mr. Tint);Le and the CitAmcnt.t.oß of the ExcH EVIL R, it was agreed that the follow ing papers should be laid betore the House: An account of unfunded Debt and Exchequer Bills for 11114. An account of the number of Bank-oats in circulation on the Ist of November, 1811. An account of the net proceeds of the War Taxes. An account of th', distribution at the Vote of Credit for the service of the year 11t14.• An account of the deficiency or surplus of the Consolidated EuAd to April, 1814. Mr. TIERNEY gave notice, that on Monday he should more for certain paper; relative to the Civil The CH - 111%10E1.1.01t of the EXCHEQUER then etateal, that he should dt:fer WA motion for toe erection of a Alouutueut to General Ross, till Monday. WAVY. Mr. CROKER mnved for leave to bring in a Bill to encourage and reward the Petty °dicers, Sea men, and Marines, for long and faithful SC: He stated, that the object of the 4.:1 was to put the two services of the Army and Navy as much as pos sible upon an equalay ; and he tfit,ught that the funds !of Greenwich Hospital and of the chest united would go a cunsider.ble way towards covering the expenses. If any - dcticiency should arise, he truted that the House. would think proper to supply it out of the public money. At present, there was this difference between the Army and the Navy—the whole ex pensei of the former were borne by the public, whereas the expenses of the latter were defrayed by them selves—by the contributions Which they made to the funds at Greenwich. From the peculiar character of t:le war during the last* year, the services of the sea men and royal marines had been felt in a less striking manner than those of the army ; but the exemplary. conduct of the navy deserved the best thanks if' the country, and the House had frequently expressed their admiration and approbation of such conduct. He ta usted therefore that the'lloase wouldcotitucin the object of the BUJ. Mr. WARD asked, if it were intended to make any proviaions for halfilaylor Masters, Mates, and Midshipmen ? • Mr. CROKER replied, that the subject had been considered, and . found in be utterly impracticable..-- A liberal promotion, however, would be made of such as were found to be entitled to that reward ; and others would be maintained in full pay, and kept in his Majesty's ships that might be in commission. It was intended, that the pensions to be g:•anted to the marines should be the same as time given to the army, an& that the seamen should be placed on the same footing, as near as the difference of the services' would allow. A registry would be kept of the sea men, and they would be called to come to the service of their country, with a forfeiture of pension if they refused. Masters, mates, and midshipmen, and, in deed, even lieutenants, would be allowed to enter into the merchant service, without prejudice to their rights in the navy. He then brought up the Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be printed and read a second time on Monday. comß•r-MARTIAL ON COLONEL QUENTIN. Colonel PALMER rose and said he was extremely sorry to have to call the attention of the 1-louse to a subject in which it might he th ,, tight that he wa. actuated by personal m,tives : he alluded to the pr.iceedings of the recent Courc-Maitial on Colonel Quentin. As far as related to himself, there was nothing in those proceedings which affected him ; for he trusted that his own character stood so per tectly unimpeached by them that it needed no justi fication. (Near, hear, hear.) It was for the sake of others, not for his o .vo, that he now addressed the House. Ha was aware upon what delicate ground he stood ; and, at the same time he was ansious to do justice where justice was due ; he should take care to avoid every topic which did not necessaiily connect itself ss ith his intentions. His , only object at present, however, was, to move for the Proceedings of that Court• Martial ; with the sentence he had nothing to do, and meant not to complain of it ; but he would take upon sell to say that thete were observations made by the Members of that Court Martial which were not war ranted bY, nor founded in fact. He should abstain at present from any statement of whit bd had to offer, and in the interim should only move for the proceedings. Perhaps he might find it necessary to ground a motion upon those proceedings, but he did not wish to pledge himself to any such course. He was afraid he could not, consistently with the Rules of the House, make the motion at that moment— [" Ta, you can e was exclaimed by several Manbau.] 11 so, he should then beg leave to move, " That the Proceedings of the Court Martial upon Colonel Quen tin be laid upon the Table of that House." The motion being handed up to the Chair, the SI'EAKER expressed some doubt as to the propriety of its form. He apprehended it would be more regu. lar if ccoverted into an humble Address to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, the House, however, would assist him, if wrong, in his recollection. • The motion was withdrawn, and shaped in the form of an Address, which being read and seconded, Mr. MANNERS SUWON said, he felt the greatest astonishment in observing, that while the Ho nourable Member was hesitating whether to inhibit an immediate motion or a notice to the House, he had been cheered on by some Members to the former . proceeding, and he presumed th e y, a t least, wer e convinced by what the gallant Colonel had advanced, that the House sought to accede to his wishes. He' • 'hoped, therefore, he should not be considered prematurely entering into the discussion in wh a t h e had to offer to their attention. It appeared to hie:, indeed, that no sufficient ground whatever had beers laid for granting immediately the object of the Member, and, he put it to the feelings, to the judgrr,er, of the House, whether' there were not thousand rr.o. tives for negativing a proposition 'to submit the pro. ceedings of any Court, whether military or civil, to that House, unless very strong reasons were produced, for such a proceeding. He, for one, certainly thoireht It would be most inconvenient to the public set vice. He did not mean to say that it might not he very proper under some circumstances to yield such inim. 'ma!ion ; but here no arguments had been employed, no fact. stated, no motives held cot, fortbeadriptioa • of the present measure. It surely would not be cop tended that the legal proceeding a s of any Conit; wire to be produced, as a matter al course, "because any Honourable Member might think proper to com e down to that House, and move tot diem, - tipnit'die mere asset tion that they were njuit• to• dnit uv that person, without any information by which tJey could: guide their conduct. If he understood the Iftinout able Gentleman rightly, he said that when the docu ments *ere produced, he should then be'able to slic,r good grounds fur calling frit them. - This was ter. candy reversing the ordinary proceedings of. alit House. If the Honourable Gentleman fel' iuctited to Withdraw.hls motion, And - convert it, into a i tice. it would . then be for the consideration of Vie when that notice was brought forward, teAstermine upon what course it should pursue; but if he presaed 't now, in the absence of all reason and argumeetiOr , acceding to it, he should feel it No ditty, 'he - ttitMght . it would be the dirty of th e House to edirlt q. •Ctirmet PALMER said; that as the Right Hon. - Gentlianan,wished fie some'facts that might 4 1ustily i 'the House in complying with his - motion, be worM proceed to state- 4 efllers woffral "• (iv: atofice _The SPEAK E It observed, that of course any thing which the Ron. Member might deem important as illustrating his motion, It certainly was torhpesent trim to deliver. Colonel PALMER laid; that he was tinder . lire necessity of being absent from the country in a tor days, as it would be necessary for him to be at Piris. It must be some days before the Member‘tould read the proceedings, after they were put in ~session of them, and the shortest delay WAS therefore of irniiiirt ance to him. lint if any other Member would under take to give the notice, it iniglifequally accomplish what he wished. Mr. WHITBREAD said, he hal beei'detieed : l4 an Honourable Friend of his, the.! 'eMbei'for Hen". fordshire (Mr. Brand), to give a .notite, 'situilar . to that of the Honourable Colonel's, for Tuesday:riest. It would certainly be desirable, however, that hi should he present at the discussion. Mr. TIERNEY suggested, that the Honourable Member might be allowed to make his statement, tho Ugh. the House need nut come to any decisive upon the question on the present occasion. Colonel PALMER said, he did not wish'tcr enter into the merits of the question, till the papers reek-4 produced. Mr. PONSONBY asked, if Tuesday would be. early enough fdt the Honourable Member. Colonel PALMER replied, that he t wat extremelt anxious to bring the motion forward on Monday, 4 the House would permit him. goOday .. was accord. ingly fired, and the notice was meted for that day: eavgitss to 44611'5t. Mr. MARTIN asked the Chitdellorof the-Exchem quer, whether any eitablistanetreivis intended to be made for her Royal Highness the Princess Charlotte The CHANCELLOR of tble EXCHEQUER said, that he bad' not recelied !Iffy 'commands from the Prince Regent on that ittbtjtet; The House then went,inutas iolivnmittee of Supply. coltratTrai f 4 • 11 &01. Y. The . CHANCELLOR . : of ` the EXCHEQUER moved, that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, to consider the Speech of the Prince Regent. Mr, PONSONBY wished to know whether it was in the intention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give a general statement of the financial condition of the country before he moved for any supply ? The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he certainly intended to give such a gene. ral statement as to the best of his judgment would be necessary. Mr. PONSONBY insisted, that the fullest inform 'nation was necessary before the House ought to be called upon to grant large supplies. The House then went into the Committee, and Mr. BROCIDEM (the Chairman) read that part of the Regent's Speech which related to the arrears. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that as he should now merely move that a sup ply be granted, he did not apprehend that be need enter, upon- any minute details : hereafter, when he should apply for particular sums, he would furnish the appropriate information. Mr. HORNEIk observed, that as the speech al luded to large acrews,..nd as it appeared from a blip ”f paper on the table, that ten millions were due on the army account; independently of the nine millions which were last .session anticipated, he hoped the House would not continue to vote million after mil lion, without requiring the most minute and ample information. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that it certainty was Iris intention to Inman every detail in his power ; that exact details, espe cially as to the army service, could not be cone niently given, till the . close of the year ; he sholi',.•, hirivever, be able to present a statement of consid..:- able exactness as to the expenditure of the sevetal branches of the military service, whether in FratrCup or' Spain, or the Netherlands. This was ail lie could do. He allowed that' the expense' pad bete enormous; yet he thought, if it wert compared with the splendid advantages acquired c , no nun would say that they had been bought . * iho high a price. The put-goings of the war In Spain and France were immense out of the nineteen mil lions, much the greater part had been applied to dust iservice ; •great arrears had been found' to be due to :the army, which, for want of the proper resotu,;,s of .exchange could out possibly be defrayed till the upen• 'ing of the peace. I3efore that time k was as much as - he Conn* could i do to meet the current expenses. Mr. BARING doped that the House would pal