Star. — London, England, 1821-03-08 00:00:00

It N ature back our steps. .Economy should he the bas i s of every measure, and •he thought something l i g ht be done in the comae of the present year. But sesn. 'ons to that effect could not be listened to if ompaitied with taunts, as that was not the spirit t h at could lead to economy and retrenchment. In t h e Committee that was about to be appointed, he h o ped no proposal would be made for any violation o f public Nub. With the doctrine that the landed wm ertyof England was mortgaged for the National b e k he wholly disagreed ; nor in the case of insol mocy could the land be called upon to pay. Aluch da t e poorer lands of the country - had, by the pre tot system, been thrown out of cultivation, and ulti sagely that must be the case of the richer soils. A re peal of the Tax on Husbandry Horses would be of n o important benefit to the farmer, as he had met with none who regarded it as a grievance. ' The in discreet zeal of a certain Society, had been injurious 40 the cause of the Agriculturists. The Bill for the 'Regulation of the Averages, including those of Ire land, would be of essential advantage, and a gra duated scale of Duties on Foreign Corn, in propor tion to the price'of British Corn, was an alteration he should wish to see adopted : and also an addition to the price of Oats above that of 1815. Mr. 11.013INSON - was desirous to take an early the House. In a f ormer opportunity of addressing Session, he had opposed a simil ar mot i on , as t h e dis tress could not be ascribed to the existing laws, and to specific plan was intended to be proposed. But considerations of feeling and expediency, might call for acceding to a proposal, which, at a former time, had been refused. Had the course taken last year by the House been deemed satisfactory to the Pub lic, these could be no ground on the expediency for the appointing of a Committee. • But as th it had tot been the case, he was not ashamed of his incon sistency in voting for an unconstrained Committee. Va the subject or retrenchment, the state of public cr edit was to be taken into view, whether it was bet ter to diminish the Taxes, or to make a reJuction of the Public Debt, and which would ultimately be most beneficial to the country. Pains had been takea to impress on the Agriculturists, that the only adequate protection was high Duties on Foreign Corn. In 1812, many articles might have been im- T ened duty flee; such as Cheese, Butter, and vari vas kinds of Seel, that now paid a high duty, and were extremely productive to the Revenue. Should these be prohibited, a large sum would be lost to, the beeline. The spirit that actuated the Mover and Seconder of the motion, was that spirit that alone could do good, if carried into the Committee. Even should no remedy be discovered, the impartial in quiry on the part of the Committee would tranquil lize the public mind. Mr. CI;ItWEN thought that the 'light Hon. Gen tleman had not argueed the question fairly, as he iMr.Curwen) and his ttiends had always disclaimed the idea of prohibiting duties. He was of opinion that much blame was to be attached to Ministers ; as, if they were aware of the extent of the evil, it scas their imperious duty to propose a remedy. The income of the country, in its most flourishing state, had never exceeded 4.00 millions. For the last three months the farmer had lost Bs. 'on each bushel of corn. On wheat alone we lost 15 millions, on oats and barley 15 millions more, and on other stock l 0 millions ; taking Scotland and Ireland at 15 mil lions, the total loss would be 55 millions. That loss Ind added 6} per cent. to taxation, and the total tax- ' anon amounted to 26} per cent. The rental of the whole empire did not exceed 40 millions, and the diminution was equal "to a year and a quarter of the whole rent. No man could believe these was an in creased consumption amidst such a diminution of wealth; or, if it were so, it would only prove that the country was expending its capital. But, in the aticle of tobacco and shoes there had been a great diminution ; and in the statements of the Chancellor al the Exchequer, he believed there had been some great mistakes. In 1817 corn had fallen at once *b. per quarter ; and in 1818 and 1819 an impor tation had. taken place to the amount of two months consumption, though one month's would have been efficient, and the surplus remained to lower the price of native corn. He disclaimed a price that could bear hard on any class of the community ; and too low a price was equally against the interest of the manufacturer as of the agriculturist. Ilad the low price of corn created a comfortable state for any class of the community ? Nothing could restore 'the prosperity of the country but the recovery of the 35 millions that had been lost to the agriculturist-- A great Polish proprietor had told him that 12s. per quarter would be an ample remuneration, and could! the British grower compete on such terms? The wheat of the kingdom amounted to IS million quar ters, of which seven and a half milieus were grown on the poorer soils, and that gave employment to 300,000 individuals, and produced a, revenue of six millions ; and if those were thrown out of employ ment as agriculturists, how could other employment he procured for them ? A Noble Lord in another place (Liverpool) bad certainly mistaken the case in ascribing the state of things to a superabundant crop. The unproductive labour that wits increasing each day was another source of the distress. It 1,000 tanners were asked if the labour of their farms had , not been diminished, they would all answer in the affir mative. Ile (Mr. Curwen) must state, that the House had no power to exempt any class from taxation at a time like the present. Ile believed that it would 1e the Noble Lord and his colleagues who would be compelled to touch the dividends of the stockholders. lavas inevitable but that a crisis must soon come aben the People would not endure this state of things. They must come to an economy equal to the exigen ces of the State. This was the real state of things ; and however they might deceive themselves, it cer tt:nly would soon come upon them. Ile had never let voted against his conscience, nor never would. Mr. WIIITMOIIE attributed the whole misfor tunes of the country to the late war; and the subse qcent want of economy since the peace; and he en tered into various statements respecting the striking the Averages, Ste. Ile thought it would be the policy ‘l l this country to abrogate all the laws imposing duties on all articles itni , ol Led from IrelaAd; bet at site same time lie did not know howany flee inter :ourceenuld be allowe' to foreign corn. Foreign cern "Id not bd smuggled into -this count r y ; an t ! th e 4 ' lul Lwas in over - production at home' ; and not in ex ,euile involution. Whether the over-production m home moose from la) consumption at home or not he would not now pretend to say. It 'eras in conse quence of taxation that every interest in the country was depressed. There•seemed to him to be.a wish in the country to raise the price of corn beyond its natural level ; while the value of rents had been raised disproportionably. He was thoroughly of opi nion that the high price would not last, because the fall of the price of corn would oblige the poor land to be again taken out of cultivation. This he should lament as much as any man ; but such was his (-pi nion. The first remedy, and one of absolute neces sity, was, every species of economy in every branch of the Revenue and of Government. There was no disposition in the country to complain beyond the actual pressure of the public burdens; yet he could not vote for the motion of last night,, because he feared there would be next year such a falling-off in the Revenue as would not justify the House in get ting rid of the Assessed Taxes on windows. He wished that a variable, and not a fixed duty, should be placed on foreign corn, similar to the law of 1804. .But, however those duties might be gra duated, he thought 80s. a quarter too high a price to regulate the importation of foreign corn. As to the 13u11ion quest'on,- he thought the die was already cast, and that the resumption of Cash-payments was too precipitate. Mr. HONY\VOOD hoped that the public mind would not be too greatly raised by the expectation. of any great good from' a Committee of that House, unless an anxious desire was manifested for retreneh ment in the Taxes, and an alteration in the Poor Laws. The evil was excessive taxation. This was not an Administration founded on die wishes of the People, but upon patronage. If we were to return to the prices of corn in 1792, let them also return to the same number of our Standing Army, the same number of Secretaries of State, and Leads of the Admiralty—ll/ear, hear). Mr. W. BURRELL thought the distresses of the 1 country arose from the importation of foreign corn, and that that could be proved' before the Committee, if granted. What was to become of the population, if, the thin clay lands were thrown out of cultivation, •xs proposed by the Member for Bridgenorth (Mr: Whitmore)? There should be a reduction of taxa tion, and of the importation of foreign corn. \lr. TII EM A YNE contended, that if any assistance could be granted to Agriculture, it must be done in conjunction with relief to every other branch in the Siate. The House should therefore turn its attention to the proceedings in Committees of Supply. The farmers might do much, and the Magistrates could assist them in the administration of the Poor Laws ; but our mainstay must be economy and retrenchment. Everything that could be done would be done by this Committee ; he hoped the expectations of the Agriculturalist would not be raised too high. Mr. J. WODEBOUSE said, the man must be an idiot, or worse than an idiot, who could deny that every• class in the country suffered from taxation.— Ile had voted last night against the motion then sub mitted to the house, because that proposition had not appeared to him the most eligible that could be ' produced ; and he had voted against the motion for I l the repeal of the Agricultural Horse Duty, because, ,considering that to be of little importance, to have voted for the motion, if he had regarded it in a different light, would have been to lend himself to a practical delusion. In noticing what had been said on the subject of light soils, he remarked, that the •finest wheats produced at the London markets came from Essex and Sussex, and were raised on lands, the cultivation of- which was as difficult and as hazard ous as that of any part of the country. He had a paper in his .. hand, which contained the experience of an individual for the last thirty years.. If this con tained but a dish of lies, he must throw up the case ; but he implicitly believed it. He wished to call at tention to a comparison to an average of the crops produced on a particular farm at different periods.— He would take the.years 1791 and 1819. He would also compare the charges sustained for rent, tithes, poors' fates, taxes, labour, and tradesmen's hills, from accounts made up to Michaelmas, 1791, and Michael mas, 1819. The average crop taken from 1791 was 40 bushels of wheat per acre, which told for Bs. 6d. ,per bushel. The crop of 1819 was 34 bushels, which sold for Bs. 3d. per bushel. The crop of barley, per acre, in 1791, averaged 40 bushels, and was sold for 6s. 6d. per bushel. In 1819, the produce and the price were the same; The expenses borne by the far , mer at the two periods, were as follows : Rent, per acre 1791 £BO 13 0 11819 l3O 2 6 Tithes % 1791 l4 9 0 11819 29 0 0 Poore Rates. 1 1 1 7 E 91 91 8 2 8 49 8 0 Assessed Taxe5.......... 1 : 7% 1 13 1 8 19 1 0 Labour 1 1 1 7 8 91 ll6 1 3 19 193 3 1 Blacksmith's Bill. 1 1 1 7 5 9 19 1 BlO 8 18 13 6 1 1791 1 1 10 Wheelwright's 1619 Collarmaker's Bill S 1791 2 . 4 0 1 1819. — 7. 4 0 In 1791, the total expenses, exclusive of interest, were £23‘.? tis. 100. In 1819, £358.75. 3d. At the two periods there was very little difference in the price of Corn. It was impossible, under such circum stances, the farmer could go on long without relief. Mr. H. G. UENNETT began by stating, that every person who spoke on the question admitted the uni versal distress which prevailed. but every one cau tiously avoided to mention the sources whence arose that distress. If a Committee were appointed, and that Committee did not go into the whole of the dis trews, not only of the agriculturists, but of every other class of his Majesty's subjects—if they did not inquire into the taxation, the appointment of a Com mittee would be a mere delusion ; it could give no relief to the people at large ; it would only keep up rents, and raise the price of Bread. He hoped the re port which would emanate from that Committee, would not be got up as other reports had been, by the influence of Ministers, and afterwards thrown in their face as the report of the House ; whereas, in fact, it might have been the report of Ministers them selves. 1 he whole question of taxation, generally, as it bone oa all classes, should be diligently inves tigated. The currency of the country should also be considered. He contended that this question should. not be looked at as affecting the agricultural in- I terests only, but all other .interests, as settlements of all kinds, rents, bonds, debts, marriage settlements, &c. should be all examined. It was impossible for the country to pay off the diferent -btledenrimposed omit with deteriorated means. They should nor go into that Committee without an express determina tion to inquire into all the distresses under which all classes laboured. If augmentation of prices of agri cultural productions were the object for the appoint ment of the Committee, it would be attended with the greatest injury to the lower classes of the com munity. He would sound the alarm to the country if such were the object. Honourable Members might despise numbers and public opinion ; the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) might talk insultingly of the peoples right to petition that House; but he would tell the Noble Lord and the Honourable Members, that if the country were to be told that a Committee were appointed by that House to raise the price of bread (Hear, hear), the Noble Lord, with all his blandish ments, could not allay the ferment such information would necessarily produce. He should take care, and all his friends should take care, that no motion for a Supply should be carried in that House with out the strictest inquiry and examination—(Hear, hear). They would take their stand on the establish ment of 1792; and to that they would endeavour to reduce the present. When Honourable Members confess that Agriculture is ruined, that Trade is de stroyed: when every one is endeavouting to shift for himself, it became the duty of some one to stand up for the community at large. There was but one line of conduct to pursue. The country was not able to support the_present establishments. ' When, therefore, it should be told them that the Co lonies should be maintained, that armies should be kept up-to support i;eace and tz anquillity, that all the . other establishments were to he kept up—it then be , came the duty of the House to reply, that the country needed them not,,and could not support them. That was the line of conduct for them to pursue. When on that night the blessings of plenty and abundance had been represented as a curse—(Bear, hear)—when Honourable Gentlemen stand up and lament the ruined state of Agriculture—on those Honourable Gentlemen he would call to come downto that House, and watch the time when next a Grant was to be voted, or the keeping up of an enormous Army Establish ment !—(Hear, hear, hear.)—The People might then judge of the sincerity of their motives—(Hear, hear). I If they did not come down and oppose such enor mous expenditure, he should conclude, from that con duct, that they felt not for the distresses of their te nants, but that it was the payment of their rents they wanted—(Hear, hear)—and that if those had been paid, the House would not have heard of a Committee of Inquiry intuAgricultui al Ditties es—a-lear, hchr). Mr..OOOCH roar to order, and said the Honourable Memb e r had no right to impute such motives. Lord NUGF.NT said, his Honourable Friend did not mean to Impute any personal motives to the Honourable Members, but I was contending that the object of the motion was to support the Landholders (Cries f Chair, Chair!) The SPEAKER said, he did not conceive the Honourable Member to impute motives : when he aid, if certain results fol lowed; but if he undentooci him to say, if rents were paid there should be no Committee, that certainly would be disorderly: Mr. BENNETT said, he submitted to the correc tion of the Chair.--The Honourable Member conti nued his observations :—The Estimates were one thing, and the Expenditure another. The expenditure always exceeded the Estimates. .The only question for their consideration was, the reduction of the ex penditure, and consequent diminution of the taxes.— Nothing but the reduction Of the expenditure, by proper retrenchment in every establishment, could save the country—(Hear, hear).-:-He should be the last man in the country who would recommend any attack on the public creditor. But he would tell the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer; that he would be driven out of his quackery, step by step— (Hear, hear)—and would , at length come dow n t o that House to make such a proposition as at ansither time he would startle at. He would be obliged to come down and propose to invade the public creditor —(Hear, hear).—He (Mr. Bennett) would wish to avoid so ignominious a condition, and would first reduce their expenditure. He begged.pardon of the House for having trespassed so long on their indul gence ; but he could not hear of a Committee being appointed to raise, unnaturally and forcibly, the prices cif the necessaries of life, without entering his protest against it—(Cheers). Mr. WESTERN denied that the object of- any of these Committees was to enhance unduly the price of bread. Their objects were to protect the Agricultural Interest, and, consequently, every other interest in the country. From the cultivation of the soil of the land we derived all our security ; and he hoped we would never give up this security for any of the visionary notions of the day. He had no wish to increase the price of bread without increasing the means of purchasing it to the patient and industrious peasantry of England. They were much better able to pay for bread' when the price of it was what his Hon. Friend (Mr. Bennett) would call excessively dear. It was therefore the price of his labour that the peasant could get, and not so much , the price of bread, that should be looked to. In the present con dition of the burdens of the State, the higher the price of labour, the less would those burdens be felt by the lower classes. The price of labour had de creased in his part of the country from 16s. per week to 9s. He agreed that the only remedy was to re• duce the public expenditure; aad therefore the duty of the House was to withhold all extravagant grants, such as that of three millions of new taxes. The Hon. Member, adverting to the Ad passed in 1819 to facilitate the resumption of cash payments, de clared his conviction that the present distressed state of agriculture originated in that measure. He con tended that it was indispensably necessary to protect the agriculturist. If this protection was extended, he was pet suaded that all our supplies of agricultural produce now drawn from foreign parts, would in future be taken from Ireland, and life and spirit be thus given to that country. Mr. BENNETT explained, and declared •his ob jection to any measure which had for its object to raise the price of grain. Mr. D. BROWNE was of opinion, that the distress of the agriculturist arose from want of adequate pro tection against the foreign grower. He entertained no hopes of advantage from the new mode proposed of taking the average the o.ily step to be taken which could operate effectually, would be to prohibit the importation of foreign grain. He contended that ' the ports had-often been• opened by fraud-on the part of certain capitalists, by which they had been bene fitted, and the country ruined. He was of opinion there should be an absolute prohibition of foreign corn. • BARHAM wirished bread to remain as cheap as possible ; but still he thought the Imptittation Laws should.not remain as they now were. Corn might get too cheap, so cheap that the farmer would cease to grow it, and we should then he reduced to depend on supplies of foreign corn at any price. Mr. RICARDO could not agree that the interests of landlords, of tenants. of manufacturers, and agri culturists, were united in tl:i question. The contrary was the fact. The landlord in this qbestion must have a distinct interest Operating against the rest. Ile had been aecused of speaking as a mercantile man, but he denied that he was sr", or that he was a fund holder. Ile vas a land-owner, and spoke his sentiments as a Member of Parliament anxious for the general interest. The Ilonourable Gentleman then proceeded to state hi view of the subject. st hich was, that weshoul .1 endeavour to make our corn bear the sane price as the corn of other countries did. This he was ready to allow could not be done az once, but it might be done gradually. The land-owners had attempted to keep corn up, but they had done unskilfully. The Corn Laws were not calculated to do it. We had repeatedly seen, when corn got above eighty shillings, a glut of foreign corn sent into the country, from the effect of which we had not, in some instances, recovered for years. He did not con sider the present low 3 . aeice of corn to be caused by taxation, but by there being too abundant a supply. The Warehousing System had been alluded to in de bate; and ir was said,' who would speculate in corn, whilst such immense magazines were liable to be opened upon him ? Ile would say confidently that he would, for he knew he should be safe unless corn got above 795. It had also been asked, could we grow corn as cheap as foreigners ?, He would reply, certainly not ; and that was the reason why he de sired to import it ; for, until we could grow it as, cheap, the capital employed in growing it was M. employed. The Honourable Member then proceeded to defend the use of machinery, as operating to give the consumer the comniodity cheaper. He then ad verted to what had been said on the subject of the Nationa) Debt : in his opinion, faith with the Public Creditor should be kept sacred. It was a most dis honourable idea—one which, he was convinced no Gentleman would entertain for a moment—that hav ing, during the war., in times at necessity, i doced our fellow-citizens to le.,d their money, we should now, when we had no further occasion for ti r as sistance, turn round on them and say, we carrot, or we will not pay you ! With iespect to our difficulties, he could not but flatter himself, they were neat y at an end. This depressed state of Agiiculture„his depressed state of trade, could not last : it was occa sioned by the war, and must expire, now the war was at an end. He was in favour of a permanent, but moderate duty, which lie considered would be at tended with great advantages to the Public. Mr. DAVENPORT said a few words in support of the motion. Mr. CALCRAFT wished to ail the Agriculturist as much as possible; but he could not agree to the proposition for higher protecting duties; he was wil ling the Corn Laws should remain as they were, for the sake of protecting Ireland, but he would agree tp no measure which would raise the price. General GASCOYNE was glad to hear the diffe rent opinions now given by Gentlemen, because he was persuaded, with so many opinions, the Com mittee would do nothing. He opposed the motion. Mr. THOMAS-WILSON, though a commercial man, was in favour of the appointment of a Com ' mittee, and even hoped that some advance would he made in the price of grain, as by it he thought the farmer would be enabled to pay his labonier better wages—the manufacturer would have more trade the Government would proceed better—and the whole would be an advantage to the Public. The motion for a Commiitee was then agreed to, and the following were amongst the individuals named to serve upon it : Lord Castlereagh Sir T. Lethbridge Mr. Huskision Lord Alt horp Mr. F. Lewis Mr. Western Mr. I). Browne Sir 11. Parnell Mr. S. Bourne Mr. Brougham Mr. Rubinson • Mr. N. Calvert Mr. Wodehouse Mr. Gooch Mr. Dickenson Mr. H. Sumner Mr. W. Smith Mr. eurWen Mr. S. RICE then brought forward his motion for leave to bring in a Bill for repealing certain Acts of Parliament, imposing capital punishment for ottences in Ireland; especially for stealing to the amount of five shillings in shops and warehouses. Mr. MARTIN suggested the propriety of including sheep-stealing in'the provisions of this Bill. Mr. S. RICE would promote this proposition if brought forward hereafter, but he did not,now wish to embarrass his Bill with any doubtful point.— Leave was then given to bring in a Bill. OrniALUIC Air. BEN NETT said, he hid a motion :Xi the Paper respecting the Opthalmic Institution; but as he understood the Secretary at War intended to bring forward this subject, he should not press his motion. ILLICILLAICIES. Colonel BAGWELL presented a Petition from the Noble men, Gentry, Clergy, and Freeholders of the County of Tippe rary, against the repeal of the Union Duties. —Laid on the table, and ordered m be printed. Colonel BAGWELL presented another Petition, from T. Prendergast, Esq. Cursitor of the Court of Chancery in Ireland, against the Bill now in progress, su far as it respects the office of Cur,itor.—Laid on the table, and ordered to be printed. Mr. 11. SUAINEIt postponed his Motion relative to the OM phan Fund to this day fortnight. I%lr. W. COURTENAY put a his motion relative to the American Loyalists to ibis day fortnight. The other orders were then disposed of, and at One o'Clock the House adjourned. Seorrixo.—The Houston Quarterly Sports took placeln How ton Meadoeii, Buck,, on Monday. The first Prlie, for a Sub scription Silver Cup and Cover, at I. birds, eleven Subscribers, ar three guineas each, excited much spit as follows:—Mt, llnrne killed 14, Captain Smith 13, Mr. Soane 13, Mr. L. fevre 12, Mr. Gillingham 11, Mr. Broadhurst 11, Mr. Gilchrist 10, Mr. Holiday nine, Mr. Giles, jun. nine, Mr. Hathway eight, and Mr. Jones only four, when the ('up was given to Mr. Horne. —Six Wrestlers were next pitted for two Prizes, viz. the first ,C 2, and the second a hat. Young Beichambers, from Wilt shire, won the cash, and Harrington, from Berkshire, who was thrown by Belchambers in wrestling off the tic, won the hat. skilful single-stick match followed, for two, the same prizes as the last. The first prize was won by Watson, and the second by (ice. SING 176 R Roastay.—Yesterday, Mr. Hort, the Deputy Cle. k bf the Peace for the County of Surrey, while attending to the duties of Ms office in the Court at the Surrey Sessions, was rubbed of a pozket-book, containins two cheques for £l5O each, and of other property. It appears that Mr. Hort was standing near some people who came to give. a prisoner a good chatacter, at the time he was robbed, and he strongly suspected the good people of having relieved him of his property. Upon the circumstance being communicat.tl to the Bench, strict nrdris were given to the Police-PiScera to prevent, fur the future, the admission a all pirious characters into the body of the Court. -