Star. — London, England, 1822-03-12 00:00:00

desired to leave in the full enjoyment of the salaries' they now had, with the exception of a reduction of 10 per cent. upon that portion of salary it was in tended to remit on the next appointment. Thus one who now had a stipend of 10001. a year, which it was intended to reduce to 8001. would pay 5 per cent, upon the 8001. and 10 per cent. on the other 2001. He assured the House that it was much easier to stand up there and propose reductions of 25 per cent. and such like, than to carry them into effect out of doors. Even those who made the proposal,when they came to fin.' how difficult and painful the task was, would not have the heart to execute them. Tke reductions which Government had made already had been suffi ciently painful. After laborious inquiry, assisted by every official return that could throw light on the subject of investigation, a Circular had been ad dressed to all the Heads of Departments by the Lords of the Treasury, laying down the principles upon which reductions were to be effected. The object in culcated was, the reducing salaries and establishments to a level with those Which existed in 1796 and 1797, as far as was practicable. The e principles 'had throughout been the guide of their operations, and he hoped his Majesty's Government would re ceive due credit for the diligence they had used. He-would shew the House how these principles had 'been made to operate on the Treasury. In 1796 the numbers of that Department were—two Secretaries, four clerks, six assistant clerks, ten supernumerary clerks, and others, making in all thirty persons. The whole amount of their salaries was '20,0001. On the .sth of January last, there were two Secretaries, one assistant Secretary, four chief clerks, one assistant, six senior clerks, eleven assistant clerks, and fourteen junior clerks, which, with twelve persons in the Ile venue branch, and one other, made fifty-three in the whole. Upon a comparison of the business done in elk department now and in 1796, it appeared that in the latter year the number of papers registered and examined was 4463. In 1821 the number of papers considered and registered was 24,890, the former being only one-sixth of the latter. With regard to emolument, it appeared that the average annual meipts of a Secretary to the Treasury, For The three years ending 1779, was ......£3400 For the three years ending 1731 5lOO Tor the tree years ending 1797 5400 For the three years ending 1800 4000 It was now proposed to restore the amount to 3400/. —what it was in 1797. The Chief Clerk, in the years trom 1779 to 1781, received 1278/. when in the year 1797 it was reduced to 8801. but the clerks had then assistants, which had since been abolished. It appeared, therefore, that in point of pecuniary emo lument their situations were as valuable then as they are now, their salary being 1200/. The establish ment was to be composed of two Secretaries, one assistant, four chief clerks, one additional, six senior clerks, and eleven assistants, making with the Re venue clerks thirty-six persons, the number in 1797 having been thirty. He next called upon the House to compare the aggregate amount of salary, and in the statement he was about to make he par ticularly required the House to consider the pro priety of making the rise in salary dependent upon the progress of time, and not upon promotion. It must certainly appear very hard that a person should remain at the lowest rate of salary merely because an opportunity for promotion did not occur. The regulations for the future were as follows :—The chief clerks Were to receive 12001. the senior clerks 6001. with an allowance of 201. a-year till they reach 8001. which would require ten years service. The assistant clerks and juniors, from the time they enter the office till fifteen years, were to have 3001. and at the end of twenty years 400/. till they became chief clerks. They were to begin at 1501. and continue at that for three years, after which time they were to receive an annual increase of 101. An assistant clerk, who now received 3001. a-year, and a consideration for length of service, was to receive 3001. a-year, and 151. annually, till it reached 5001. but no claim for previ()us service. The minimum was the same, but the progression was very different. The senior clerks far the future were to have 6001. a-year, but not be yond 800/. and when it was considered that there was so small a number of persons at the head of the Treasury Department, and that they held their offices so long, that sum would not appear too much. The chief clerks commencing with 1200/. would stop at 1500/. The aggregate of these different regulations compared with 1796, was as follows:—The total amount in 1796 was 19,940/.—the total now paid was 56,770/. compounded partly of salaries, and partly of consideration for length of service. The minimum was 46,0001. but supposing all to have performed the period of service prescribed to ob tain the highest rank of salary, the maximum would be 64,5301. By the new regulations, the minimum was fixed at 41,9001. and the maximum 48,0001. — The reduction, therefore, was, in the difference be tween 64,0001. and 48,000/. being 34 per cent. dimi nution—(Hear, hear). The only other office he should mention was the Secretary of State's Office, in which a similar reduction had taken place. Last year the numbers were 31, now they were 30. The mini mum was then 18,0001. and now it was the same ; but the maximum which was then 28,0001. was now 21,0001. exclusive of the reduction of five per cent —(clear). Through all the departments his Ma jesty's Government had proceeded upon the same principles, and had effected the same extent of reduc tion—(Hear, hear). The Revenue Departments were undergoing the same revision, which he would not then detail to the House. He must not omit to ex press his gratitude the Heads of Departments, for the cordial co-operation and able assistance he had met with from them, without which he never could have got through what he had undertaken. He felt this the more sensibly, as the task itself was so far from being a grateful one ; and he begged to assure 'the House that nothing but the commands of the Crown, and the weight of the declared wishes of Parliament could have enabled the undertaking to be effectually accomplished as it had been. Before he placed in one point of view all the general re ductions, lie would state that Government had gone through all the other public departments a short time before the meeting of Parliament. They had done sill they could with the great Revenue Departments. They had called before them the heads of these de partments, and availed themselves of their assistance in pointing out any quarter in which they could apply 'the hand of retrenchment. The Customs were under the examination of an intelligent Commission. Sere- ral others were tinder the scrutiny of the Board of Irish Commission, which having seen the nature of i the corresponding' department in England were corn- i paean to effect that desirable assimilation and uni formity of system so eminently advantageous. Go vernment had not thought itself called upon by the , voice of Parliament to invade domestic comfort and; happiness with too raugh a hand, by making any considerable reductions of salary in the public ser vants. It had been argued, indeed, that in what they had done already in that way, they had gone beyond the bounds of justice. It was contended, that a clerk had a right of property in his situation and salary, which could not be infringed. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) never would admit such a princi ple to such an extent. He never would agree that Government, who had the power to dismiss, bad , not the power to controul. But he admitted that, like all other prerogatives, it might be tyrannically exer cised. He hoped, however, that it would be found that they had exercised the power which had been left to their discretion, their mercy, and their justice, in due temperance, although not without .a portion of rigour, which the necessity they were under im posed upon them as a painful duty. In the discharge of it, they had studied as much as possible to engage the generous feelings of the individuals employed in the public service, on the side of their duty. The duty of the bead of an office was not only to see that the public duty was performed, but that the best ability of the individual was employed in its service, in order to ensure a zealous discharge of his functions. He hoped he had succeeded in giving such a sketch of the revision which had been made, as to give the House a competent idea of its nature. Of Ireland he should only say that a revision of the same kind was going on. They were not in the same state of forwardness, but he hoped it would not be long before he should be able to lay the returns on the table of the House. It had been already stated to the House that there was another species of reduction—a reduc tion of the higher departments of the State. The fact was, that it was a long time since the emolu ments of these situations had been increased. He found by a reference to a warrant issued by Charles the Second, that even in his time these Officers were better paid than now. This would have justified their not being touched ; but his Majesty's Government felt that at a time when they were called upon toes ercise retrenchment upon the lowest offices and situ ations, they must not shrink from approaching even the highest. They felt this the more strongly im pressed upon them, from the example which had been set from the highest quarter—( Hear). He had his Majesty's command to acquaint the House, that his Majesty had given directions for reductions to be made to the extent of 10 per cent. in those departments of his Majesty's Household which contributed mote im mediately to his personal comfort—(Hear, hear). — The departments he particularly adverted to were the Privy Purse, the Lord Chamberlain's, the Lord High Steward's, the Master of the Horse, and others; and as those departments comprehended an expen diture of 300,0001. the remission of burthens to the nation would be 30,0001.—(Hear, hear). —In his pa ternal care, he had taken more from himself than from his servants—(Hear, hear).--In the reductions of the salaries of his Majesty's Ministers, it was not so heavily felt, as they had all private fortunes be sides their official incomes. But his Majesty had no thing beyond his Civil List—(Hear, hear).—This do nation was due to his Majesty's own especial com mands and paternal feelings--(Hear, hear)—for he must say, that, as a faithful servant of the Crown, he could not have advised a further reduction. The House had taken the wise precaution to save itself from the-pain and disgrace of having the Civil List to canvass. In so doing, the House had acted with not less wisdom than liberality. In saving the Monarch from the necessity of making such appeals as had heretofore been of no unfrequent occurrence, they saved the country from that, than which nothing could be more injurious to its best interests. It was proposed that the King should be enabled, by an Order in Council, to reduce by ten per cent. all sala ries of 5001. per annum and upwards—(Hear).— Acting on this principle, of course all the principal servants of the Crown would be comprehended by the regulation ; which would include the Lord Chan cellor, the Cabinet Ministers, and all the Political Officers of the State in England or Ireland would be subject to it. He had further to announce, that this regulation was to continue in force for the ensuing five years. This stated, he hoped Ministers would no snore be accused of acting with injustice, by re ducing the salaries of clerks and others, who were net high in office, while their own were spared.— Though this accusation had often been urged, they had never thought it worth contradicting, convinced that the effect which it might produce for a time would not fail to be dissipated when the truth came to be known. He would now endeavour to bring into one point of view the effect of the several arrange ments which his Majesty's Government had felt them selves called upon to make. He would first state what would be their effect in the present year, and then describe that which was calculated upon when the whole of the plan which he had now opened to the House should have been carried into complete execution. The immediate effect of the superannu ation arrangements, by which the country would pay five instead of ten per cent. would give a saving of 12,0001. The value of the offices which it affected being about 200,0001. or rather more, would make the saving amount to what be had stated. On the sa laries connected with the revenue, there was upon the whole a saving of four per cent. Though a great number of the salaries, being low, paid but two and a half per cent., taking into consideration the higher rate paid by others, he felt justified in stating the' total diminutions to be equal to four per cent.— Hence would result a saving to the amount of 66,0001. This was an immediate reduction of expense already in opetation from the 6th January last. The saving on the offices not connected with the revenue, he, took at 15,0001. he might, perhaps, be justified in' taking them at 20,0001. but he preferred naming 15,0001. wishing rather to be under than over the mark. Taking these at 15,0001. the next saving was to be found in the per tentage taken from the salaries of the principal Officers of State, and this he would take at 22,0001. that sum having been saved to the State by a similar reduction made in 1827. Adding to these for the deductions made from the Household Officers and the Civil List, WOOL and to that sum his Majesty's gracious dom. of so superannuation:, i rnottro or ns a , andrea ex clusivetilpt:lcli4agetxhpeensasevingsin Ireland, the final result would be a permanent saving of 30 0,0001. and a temporary saving of 75,00 a for fi ve y ears , making a total reduction, under the circ umstances he had - mentioned, and for period How far this h e h m ad igh n t am sa e t d is , fy a t m h o e u H nt o in o g se to he 37 c s oo , the Ho say, but whe n t h e est i mates came before them, they could not . would have an opportunity of going into the details. The accounts would shortly be given, and then they would be enabled to form a judgment of what had been done with respect to every office. In the mean time he hoped the House would give Ministers credit for having laboured with diligence and industry to carry into effect the wishes of Parliament. He trusted it would be seen that every disposition existed on the part of Ministers to lessen the burdens of the People. The reductions now to be effected it should be remembered were proposed to be made on an esta blishment, the whole amount of which exceeded not four millions. When Hon. Gentlemen talked of the immense savings which might be made, they some times forgot the amount of the establishments on which they were to be made. They could not have more from a thing than the total amount of that thing. Whether the retrenchments now made had I been carried far enough, would be the subject of in ' quire. It might be too much to hope that they would satisfy the House in every respect; but he trusted it , would be seen that in every respect they had been made with fairness, economy. and discretion, with an anxious wish to render justice to the community, and a no less anxious desire to act with liberality, justice, arid the most kindly feeling towards the 'ob jects of the proposed reductions. He concluded by moving a Resolution, embodying the plan opened in his speech as the basis of a Bill to be brought in. Mr. BANKES had listened to the greater part of the speech of his Right Hon. Friend with much sa tisfaction, and 'especially to the statement which he had made of the donation made to his subjects by the King. He thought the House ought to feel much gratitude for the gracious manner in which the King had thus come forward to contribute to those savings which might afford the Public some relief. With respect to some of the details of the plan, he was not sure that they would meet with his support. When so many of the salaries of public officers had been aug mented within the last few years, on account of the depreciation of money, it was hardly fair to leave ' them in possession of the incomes then given to them on that account, now that the currency was restored to the original standard. It was hardly fair to leave them in possession of the incomes so augmented, sub jecting them merely to the per tentage now proposed to be deducted. To this he must very much demur, as it appeared to him unreasonable not to do more. He had objected to some of these grants at the time they were made, bat many incomes ought to be ;e -duced as low as they were twelve or fifteen years ago. He proceeded at some length to criticise the scale of remuneration which had been adopted. To him it did not appear just that officers in the service of the State should be exempted from those inconveniences to which all other classes were exposed. He should like to see laid before the House an account of all salaries that had been' increased since the year 1810. This done, it might be proper to reduce them to what they were at that time, or to reduce part of the in crease, and give the remaining part of it to the Su perannuated Fund. A pretty general increase of sa• lades' had taken place between 1810 and 1815. With this increase it might be proper so to deal, that if the Superannuation Fund were kept up, the Go vernment should be relieved from two-thirds of the expense, instead of being only saved from half. That which he suggested he wished merely to apply to the larger salaries. He would not go down to salaries below 1001. He wished to give the Right Honour able Gentleman every credit for what he had done. He had a difficult task to perform. He (the Chan cellor of the Exchequer) might be right, and he (Mr. Bankes) might be wrong, but he could not help stating what had occurred to him on the subject. If the motion before the House were now pressed, he should feel obliged to give it a negative. He re peated, that the latter part of the Right Honourable Gentleman's speech had afforded him great pleasure, and he thought much gratitude due to his Majesty for the gracious manner in which he had come for ward on this occasion, to surrender a portion of his income for the public benefit. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEaUER said, nothing was further from him than the wish that this measure should be carried without previously under going the fullest discussion. But the better course might be to let the Resolution on which he purposed to found a Bill pass, as he thought this would be the snore convenient mode of discussing the merits of the plan. He had no wish but that it should be looked at in all its bearings, as he would candidly confess it was his hope that the more it was examined I the more it would be approved. Mr. MARRYATT thought the intention of his Majesty to give up part of his income to the neces sides of the State must be contemplated by every Member of that House with equal satisfaction and gratitude. He approved of giving a discretionary power, with respect to the remuneration of Clerks, to their superiors in office. Without this, merit and demerit would be equally rewarded—the most stupid would fare as well as the most intelligent—the most inactive as well as the most active. The system of superannuation was so radically bad, and, if he might be allowed to say it, so liable to abuse, that he thought it would be much better that they should abolish it altogether than try to mend it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to give them all the informa tion in his power on this subject. He ought to fur nish them with an account of all salaries under s the Crown, and of all superannuation; which had taken place since the Act of the 50th of the late King passed, that the House might be enabled to see at what rate these superannuations were going on. From informa tion given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the 2d of last July, when Returns, consistink of seventy-two pages, were laid before the House, it tion to his subjects of $O,OOOl. the total amount will I appeared that the sup erannuat i on amounted to be 168,0001: This was exclusive of Ireland. for CSIB,IIO. But three other articles, not included in which simoel. or *OOOl. might be added, and that' t n ha e t are ßet t o urn ve . an bac i l dai sin d cz a co c m har e g r f d or er s h up is er o an b n s the whole Would be very little under 200,0001. Such ' dons of . ueii.rvation - Es 0196 was the amount ' of the present saving; but, looking TI, 'et d lde - h - at the future, it would appear that the savings on the - Ilai 016 ° " el:, amounted wa sb ee lliPeranplatice. "ok. ' - 17.995 Civil offices, exclusive of those connected wish the The third, for Naval Officers . - 1 U 6,7 7 .2 revenue, might b e ta k en at 30 , 000 1 . I n t h e revenue Th ese a dded to • • 315,110 department he ' Made the total ,C 47 1,871 There might be other accounts of a similar nature that ought to be brought forward. But the Chancel lor of the Exchequer made it appear that the super aannations amounted to nine and a half, or ten per cent. on the aggregate amount o f sa l ar i es. T h i s was not a fair view of the subject; for, taking contingen cies into the account, altogether it appeared to him that the superannuation charges amounted to no less 'than 24_per cent. Now this had all grow n up s i nce ,1810. These superannuations, if thus allowed to creep on, would in time eat away a large portion of the revenue, and be found as bad for the country as a second set of Poor Rates. Some pamphlets which had been published by the parties affected by the pro. posed reductions, and circulated among the Members of that House, loudly complained of the course which the Right Honourable Gentleman had taken with respect to the superannuations, and considered it a hardship that it was not left to their own prudence to make such provision for their families as their means might enable them to make—(Neer). He should be glad to know why such extraordinary care was to be taken of these clerks, and why they might not be left as well as others to their own pru dence? The interpretation given to the Superannua tion Act, he considered to have been very different from anything intended by Parliament. The word superannuation carried its meaning with it ; and it was clear that Parliament had not intended that any man should be superannuated who was not past ser vice. But this was not the case with those who lad been superannuated of late years under this Bill, many of whom were young men. After 15 years service, an individual might claim to be superan nuated. A young man coming into office at 15 or 17, after 15 years, might, from • various circum stances, de-ire to retire on a pension. The same in- . terest which got him in was likely to help him out. He was succeeded by another, who at the expiration of 15 years took the same course, and was succeeded in like manner ; so that the country had frequently to pay at the same time three persons for performing the duties of one office. It was also to be remarked, that it often happened that an individual superan ' nuated in an office, was taken into another situation, and considered as efficient as any man in the service. —Such being the inconveniences of the system, be thought it would be wiser to give it up altogether, than to attempt to correct the defects of a measure so liable to abtr e as the Superannuation Act, and leave the clerks to their own prudence. He would therefore suggest the propriety of leaving the salaries as they now stand, and repealing altogether the Act of the 50th of George the Third. Mr. HUME agreed entirely with the sentiments of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and whose observations,with respect to the Custom-house, were extremely important. At the time the Act of the 53d of the late King was pas. - ,ed, the supera•mn ations in that department we: e very n.oderate ; but from that period they increased in a ratio cf about 10,000/. a-year ; and, in the Custom house alone, they now amounted to upwards of 90,0001. The system of superannuating various individuals, in quick suc cession, was exemplified in a very extraordinary degree at Plymouth. There was a clergyman in that town who now received 500/. a-year for preaching to a few persons, at the very same moment that two in dividuals,vvho had successively given up the situation, were each receiving a superannuation allowance— ( Hear).—He could see nothing in the plan which called on Gentlemen to congratolate the House or the country. The Civil List of this country amounted to 857,0001. and he understood that 55,0001. would be the total deduction from that expen,e ; and the 'difference between that sum of 35,0001. and '200,0001. was, it seemed, the total saving the country was to expect on a gross sum of 4,200,0001. appropriated for the Civil expenditure, including the collection of the revenue, and various other items—(Hear). — If they aided the Civil List of England, Scotland, and Ireland, it would form a total of 5,300,0001. on which a saving of 200,0001. (at the rate of about four per cent.) was to be effected. Now this was not such a fair and proportionate reduction of expenses as they had a right to expect. But what was the eventual reduction to be? He understood it would go to the extent of 400,0001. But, when they looked to the enormous increase which had occurred in the amount of salaries, that saving appeared to be by far too little. Let the House look, for instance, at the Trea sury department. In 1796 the expense of that de partment was '20,0001. It had since risen to 47,9001 and it was now to be reduced to the extent of 5,6701. leaving a net expenditure of forty-two thousand pounds per annum, the minimum of reduction being about double the establishment of 1796—(Hear). — He was glad that the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken the period of 1796, as the point to which they ought to approximate in settling their expenditure. But what sort of an approximation did the Right Hon. Gentleman make towards the expenditure of 1796, when the minimum expense of the Treasury in 182'2 was to be double that which was found neces sary at the former period ? If, in 1813, a Property Tax of 10 per cent. was levied on persons tilling situa tions in the different public offices, what ought now to be deducted, when they took into consideration the improved state of the currency ? Were they now to be content with a deduction of about 4. per cent. from the public expenditure, when the value of the cur rency was so greatly increased? lie should also wish to know, with what justice they could take from the junior clerk who received 1251. or 1301. a-year, the same proportion of salary that they took 11 principal clerk who had 5001. or 60a/. pet: The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQi plied, that the intention was merely to ref clerks 10 per cent. for the Public, and .5 pel the establishment of a fund for their OW/ nuation allowances. Mr. HUME further observed, that it m% to deduct 10 per cent. from the small ant whom he referred, while no more than 10 was to be deducted from Public Officers 6001. and 7001. a-year. Tlie Hoa. Member . •1. • t IL-year, Inc : from the • annum. QUER re- hluce such er cent. for sui-tran. Nts not fair inuitants to 0 per cent. s receiving concluded ;