Star. — London, England, 1817-08-22 00:00:00

rower of taking away the children from the cumin tend.thee of the parents, for the purpose of destroying tut m when th• hought it "e •isary. Here then weir • ticcessive proofs that the principle of popul .lion WAS! , It by the advocates of the sync.' of perfectibi lity, as the difficulty against which they had to con tend. Yet this was the principle which, in this en ;it,htened period (4 the world, Mr. Owen denied, egh Dr. Adam Smith had established almost as arom a that from the progren of population, when ti:, supply of labour exceeded the demand, wage; • ul.l be low, and the labouring classes would suffer; thrugh Malthus had convinced every sound mind, that: men wbuld not only suffer, but that, unless entree:acted by preventive checks, the misery of al red.,' .tant population must lead to demaralization rind crime. Mr. Owen had, in his address that day, 7t:tributed the increase of the existing distress to the introduction of mechanism—a new power, as he was rlease., to c ill it, introduced in recent times for the abti •gment of human labour. hi this assertion he wis :itstorically wrong ; the very first machine by which the earth was turned up was a mechanical in troduciiim to abridge human labour. And in regard VI the principle, as all the produce of industry re selvt:d i IX into the two branches of labour and profit, it was erroneous to contend that misery was incre ised by the introduction of machinery. To the part expend:Al in wages no such Jes7ription was ap plicahle ; and when it was cousideied, that the profit went t' oicrcase the power of the capitalist, and to enlarge the sphere of employment, it was impossible to acc.cl:! to the inference that Mr. Owen bad en de.ivinued ta assume. tie (Major Tomos) felt st ash:tined, in this enlightened metropo to get ep in defence of principles, now for the first time walitart the appearance of argument, and, w!iicri were o.ceived without hesitation by the most intelligent men in every part of the civilised world. It V;111 at Lust to have been expected, that as Mr. o.ven bad arrayed himself against those principles, prticularly that of the geometrical progression of Topulation, he would have redeemed his pledge, and refuted it by argument. His not having that day teiti led his pledge, rendered it his duty to propose as an Amendutent—" That the Meeting do adjourn to January next, in order to afford time to Mr. Owen to bring forward his refutation of that acknow ledged principle." Mr. Steevens offered himrt•lt to the attention of the Chair, but a Mr. Waboattacata, a man of colour, having addressed the meeting from the bottom of the room, Mr. Steevens waved his right, and Mr. Wed derburn advanced to the table. lie sail his name was Robert Wedderburn, the tun of an English planter in the island uf Jamaica, by his female slave —that he was himself born what was termed a slave, and by accident entoyed freedom. It was then from ocular demonstration he spoke, when he pronounced the plan of Mr. Owen but an improved system of human slavery—(Hear, hear).—The meal's of sub sistence were abundant in this coun:ry, if the ristem was correct. Whet could explain it—lreland—that country that suppled with food your Colonies, East and West, your }leas and your Armies—had now its labouring poor starving. Ile did not select that people from any particular preference, but how came it to be so? Was it the Dog in the Manger that kept the Os from the Hay—(Laszkipg)—or was it th e wa nt I of .1 d mand Mr. Smelts:Ns trusted, that on such a comprehen- 1 sive question, those who felt it a duty to otter tNeir opinions, though they differed in their view: of the, tendency ut Mr. Owen's plans, would all r..-eive a patient hearing. The Gentleman who ad.lressed them last bin one (Major Torteill) from his prema- ture apprehensions of an excessive population, re. trunded Mm of a man, who, blessed with all the gilts of 'attune, and the meat: of satisfying his wants, still refused himself the gratification of a dinner, lest the Apense of usual fond, mght, no m itter at what remote period. lead him to a wurkhou.e—(Ncar).— Whatevrr mi. lit be the evil consequences of a re dundant population, it was nit the cause of tt.e ex. isting distrt.ss, and when looking fur efficacious-re undies, we shoal" not deceive ourselves when real evils pressed, with combating imaginary alarms. But to return to Mr. Oxen's plan :—ln his villages, it was assumed, morality and superior civilization would display themselves. What said experience to that assumption ? Was it nut almost proverbial, that manufacturing towns were the very sink of corruption and of immorality ? Why ? Because the minds of men thus congregated together, were not, from cir cumstances, sa cultivated and improved as to reduce them to be attentive to the instruction and happiness of each other. Bat then we should not despair of the new principles of i-stantaneous improvement, alter the experiment that had been so successfnliy tried amongst the female convicts in Newgate. He had heard of the Overseer ut a Workhouse who was in the habit of preaching to the assembled pau pers, and who was nut a little loud in roannu- Meeting his success at conversion —(Hear, bear.) — The sectet of the transaction was, that he Accom panied his admonition with a donation of snuff —(4 laagn) He would not depredate laudable exertions to improve the moral character of - these unfortunate people. But he must be allowed to doubt the power of bringing about so grateful a change in such a small portion of time. Let the Meeting look at the MA terials on which Mr. Owen, if the plan was practica ble, would have to act. Could it be expected that from such disjointed and unassimilating materials, as distress would drive to his villages of unity, any of such td flattering results could, in the na 'let, be expected. Let the system ideed in its present incomprehen - by analysis the country could Suppose a village of five Min ns, each of whose support was of £2O per annum. Suppose 'shed there, at the rate of 14s. it of the men employed. Other the habit of giving for human per week. Could they sustain Id they not send their woik to illages? Here thztt was a scheme system of pauperism, but for ,buur, and abridging most ma the labouring classes of so. Mr. Owen had attributed to ichittery,--the reduction of the a reduction in the price of 'a bove takes place, and would the pre-mine= of British skill and industry, the foreign markets of the world, had not the reduction in the price of labour been more than balanced in the addition of taxation—(Hear, hear.)—Had At that time another machine accoto farmed the introduction of mechanism, our manurac tor, rs would not nnw be starving from the want o: demand—the causes, the only, and the power. ul causes of the national evil would never have occurred —need he say, that the machine he alluded to, was representation co-existent with taxation ?— (Lord and continued cheering.) Mr. Swirr rose to order.—On a question embracing the noblest purposes of human discussion, namely, the amelioration of millions, not alone at present, but in perspective, he could not consider the introduction of the political prejudices of the day, as at all within the limits of order. Major CAR CWRIOFIT spoke also to order, and conten ded, that the late s raker (Mr. Stevens) was strictly adverting to the true merits of the question. It was a political subject, and nothing but a political one, and those who wished to avoid the full discussion, were conscious that the causes of the evil could not bear exposure. (Hear, hear.) Mr. ST*EVENI said, he had little more to add, but, to express his lull concurrence in every thing Mr. Owen had ao justly observed in ray tor of the most unrestiicted liberty of conscience; and iti his hopes of the final extinction of those odious principles of bi gotry which had so long upheld their own vile into. rests at the expense of the world. (Hear.) Mr. WAITIIMAN rose amidst repeated cheers, and said, it was unnecessary to repeat his unfeigned and high respect for the virtues and character of Mr. Owen. The Meeting would appreciate the difficulty that he, and those who telt as he did, must have in contending with their own feelings and that of the whole room, by statitig arguments diametrically op. posed to the preposition of the man whose character was the theme of geneial panegyric. And first, he must deny the possibility of discussing the question without a reference to political considerations. This he rated generally, for he could not, from any inves tigation he could 4.ive the subject, see by what means, either in supporting or opposing the present plan, any political party in the country could be served.— But, surely it was difficult to establish the propriety of political restriction operating only against those who differed with Mr. Owen in the results and tendency of his plan, atter he, the proposer, had him self made it a political question—atter be had dis cussed it on political grounds—after he had also declared that the evils which he so studiously pet-- severed to remedy, had grown into gigantic stature by the ignorance and imbecility of the Ministers of the Crown, who were yet so enveloped in the dense atmosphere of their errors, that, proceeding with a honied march to ultimate ruin, they possessed neither the capacity oar the power to avoid it—(Cenakrafk cries Hear. hear.) Yet, with this language in the m .Utli and in the wtitngs of the proposer, we were told, tor,ooth, it was not a question on which poli tical discussion was to be introduced. He might be told, perhaps, that day, as he was on a former, that he came there with a number of political friends.— He assured the Meeting, that on the former occasion, he rode trion t country, where be had been for some time. direct to that Meeting, without any previous cotiveisatiini with any political friends whatsoever.— The same course he observed on the present accts. sion. What then, reverting to the immediate ques. tion, was the object for consideration ? Was it not the pressure of the un• quailed distress ? All agree in that admission. Mr. Owen has proposed a plea of remedy.-- We differ as to the merits of that remedy.l What then becomes our duty ? Was it not natural that we, who did not feel impressed with the validil of his recommendation, should set about (tiering that to your decision which we• think can remove the pres sure by the expulsion of the cause ? If that which has been submitted as the means of recovery be falls. emus, should not this Meeting. before it separated, declare what it conscientiously believed to be the re-1 medy ? But considering that disparity of temper with which men were burn, and which no education, could condense, he asked whether any practical man would propose to herd men together in the way which' Mr. Owen had in view, with any prospect of that' degree of harmony and co-operation which that Gen drawl appeared to think attainable ? Mr. Owen pro. fessed to regard every evil that afflicted society as the result tat the ignorance and immorality of the people— but in this opinion, he (Mr. Waithman) could by oe means concur. Thr statement, however, of Mr. Owen called to his recollection what took place about 20years ago, at a meeting professedly for the relief of the poor. On that occasion, the distress of the, poor was much dwelt upon, and an app e al was made to the libera lity of the rich to contribute to their relief. But the sufferings of the poor being attributed, in the course, of the discussion, to the amount of the taxes, and the prodigal expenditure of the war, he remembered that a Dignitary of the Church rose, and declared his conviction, that the public distress was in no degree to be ascribed to the conduct of Government, or to political causes —that reverend personage indeed very cot.fidently imputed the calamities of the country,' and the scarcity of provisions which then prevailed, to a peculiar visitation of Peoetintecs upon the people,' in punishment for their sins 1 He (Mr. Watchman)' having, however, produced a proclamation from a' British General, addressed to the French people, stating, that he had a supply of arms. and plenty of provisions for 40,000 men, if so many were willing to rise against the Reirolutionary Government—this tact so contradictory to the dogmatical assertion of the Learned Divine, threw himselt and his colleagues into confusion. The Chairman, in consequence, ran away from the Chair, and the Meeting broke up.— This anecdote he quoted to shew how apt certain persons were to attribute to extraordinary causes, that which was obviously the result of a System which those persons were unwilling to touch. There appeared a great aversion, in this instance, with some individuals, to allude at all to politics, or to any thing connected with the conduct of Government. He had heard, indeed, an individual, with a tone of au thority, forbidding the introduction of any political allusion, but he was not surprised at such conduct on the part of a person who was deriving his sub sistence from the public money. (Hear, hear, hear.) He would, however, be surprised it that ,were influenced by the diaurtr of such an authority The fact was, that politics were inseparable from the consideration of a question of this nature. In seeking a remedy for the admitted evil which pressed upor the country, the cease of that evil must be taken into view, and that cause was obvious. It consisted in the imonnt of our taxation Thar taxation had increased •normouslv of late years, and with that increase pith n.rs, work-houses, public distress had increased also. Yet there was an abunlaiice ,if wealth in the court , ry e but that wealth was in the hands of a co 'para. tively few persons. Yes, it was in the hands of joh hers, both Jews and Christians; but the woise of all j •hbers were the Government —(ifftp/miser, and same hisses.) The Honourable Gentleman observed, that in'erriptions at public meetings could have no other effect upon him than to afford him some repose, which was extremely desirahle from the state of his health. He felt therefore no anger towards those by whom he had been interrupted; hut he assured them that they could gain nothing by such interrup tion. He repeated his assertion, that the wealth ot the country was confined to a I.ov hands; and what a contrast did this immense mass of wealth afford to the extreme misery of the po 1.1 He would not say that he disregarded popularity, which every good mats must value. He (Mr. Waithin an) would not affect indifference to that which the proudest men were anxious to possess, however unwilling to deserve it. But, ho.vever highly he estimated popularity, he would never violate his conscience to obtain it. He should, therefore, support Mr. Owen without hesita tion, if he thought his plan deserving of that support. ' But he could not think so. Yet lt d was convinced ,that if he (Mr.Waitliman) had expressed such opi nions as the meeting had heard to-day .from Mr. Owen, he would have been severely abused. But to return, to the accumulation of wealth, to which he had already adverted, he would quote the opinion of a distinguished commentator. Blackstone, after taking a view of the origin and accumulation of the National Debt. observes—.r By this means the quan tity of the property of the kingdom is greatly in, 'creased in idea compared with former times; yet, if coolly considered, it is net at all increased its reality; we may boast of large fortunes, and a quantity of money in the Funds, but where dues this Mosey mist ? It exists ugly in name, in palter, in 'tub& faith, in Parliamentary security : end all this is undoubtedly sufficient for the credit is of the public to rely on; but then what is the pledge which the public faith has pawned for the security of those debts? The land, the trade, and the personal industry of the subject, from which the money must arise that supplies the several taxes. In these, therefore, and these only, the property of the public creditor does really and intrinsically exist, and rf course Me land, the trade, and the personal industry of individuals are diminished in their true value just ko much as they are pledged to answer; in short, the property of a creditor of the public consists in a certain portion of the national taxes By how much therefore he is the richer, the nation which pays these taxes are the poorer." These ob servations, which ought to be written in letters of gold, were made, it would be recollected, when our public debt did not exceed 130 millions, while that debt was at presentequal to 1,000 millions. Yet if ' he . (Mr. Waithman) or any other man, who thought with him in politics, had at this day originated those observations, what a degree of calumny would have followed, if not a desire to crush the author ot them to death. But the license taken by Mr. Owen to. 'day was or a most extraordinary character indeed. According to that Gentleman the Administration were utterly incapable and ignorant of all the religi ous and political institutions of the country—were in deed all in the wren. Now if he ( Mr. W.) had spoken in that strain—if he had called upon the people to depreciate the Administration, and to put down the Legislature, what denunciation would have been is. sued against him? Yet such was the language of a Gentleman who pressed for the sanction of that meeting in favour of a plan which no one could comprehend—which, indeed, was confessedly in comprehensible even to the Gentleman who had se-' voided the worthy Gentleman's motion. Still the worthy Gentleman stated that he had devoted five years of his life to the preparation and arrangement of this plan, and to embr'ace such an undefined pro ject, the people were called upon to abandon all the established notions of society, in order to follow Mr. Owen into his new Paradise—(4l laugh and hear, hear). Were he (Mr. Waithman) the proposer of such a scheme, he firmly believed that many persons would have thought Nib a fit inhabitant for Bedlam. The plat', in truth, of the worthy Gentleman amounted to this—that all the property of the country should be placed under the management of Government, which, in return, was to supply the people with merely food and raiment—(Hear, hear.) But taking men as they really were—considering the difficulty of insuring harmony and do-operation. even among the children under the roof and direction of their parents, every thinking man must regard the plan ri Mr. Owen for managing the congregated inhabitants of his villages of unity as completely chimerical. To practical men,. therefore, he would appeal against the views of this . secluded philosopher, for so he must consider him, notwithstanding his boast of practical knowledge. This plan, in fact, so entirely overlooked all distinc tions of intellect and industry, that had it originated with him (Mr. Waithman) he had no doubt that he would have been universally pronounced that which he bad been often denominated—a complete leveller —(Hear, hear.) For this plan proposed to put all men, whether ingenious or dolts, whether learned or illite rate, whether good or bad, upon precisely the same footing, securing to all alike the possession of common food, without any other distinction among men than existed among beasts. All the distinctions of this world were indeed, by this plan, to be entirely swept away. He saw on the whole something so dangerous in this plan, while he could expect no good from it, that he could not recommend it to any meeting. So far as he could understand its object such a plan was quite exceptionable. In those villages of unity it was pro posed, it appeared, to appoint certain Directors, but he knew enough of Directors, and so he thought must all the people of London—(A laugh, and near.) He was not acquainted with any public institution or ' charity that bad not reason to complain of the coro ' duct of Directors. There was, he verily believed, uo institution or charitable establishment in England, the Directors and even the Secretaries or Uitclet ' Agents of which did not continue to reuder the pro leased object subservient to their own private interest. I (Hear, hear.) Mr. Owen had spoken of the propriety l id a division of labour, and yet in the new societse. which he would constitute, he would appoint only one public kitchen, from which the food of each so day was to he distributed. The truth was; that the Worthy Gentleman did not at all at the tont of the evil which I e sotiyht , n remove.... W•ie n a slip let in setter, what would he ih ht of the Commander who should confine his at to the pump•, histead of looking .olit fur :lie leak ? Yet such was the conduct of the Worthy Geetleman. It he had sea:c:i.:d for 'le cause of t'o- (rise which he desired to cure, he would have Inun I r.. st cause to consist in the amount of err taxes. Or how , ever. the meeting must be sensible—(Hear)—and therefore it would better become them, as w tl as the people a , large, to all upon the Legislature tor the re.tuction of these tases—( lhar). • rill 16 Was a course more befitting rational beings ("an that which Mr. Owen urged the meeting to pursue If Ministers Were, As Mr. Owen stated, so conscious .4 the dan ger that surrounded them, and of the Improper mea• sures th-y were puriuing, it behoved the people to interpto.e, and cast upon them to .I . lAndun their career. Mr. o..ven had not, as he had s rid ..n a 'Ol mer day, given ;my satisfactory detail or deflation ois plan, as far as his definition went, it wasekrepti, Able. The wlyttlay Gentleman h.d said that the people should be instructed, and in this he tuily agreed with him—but he b..lieved that the peop:e were better in structed at present than they had ever been before. The want of instruction was not thereosre Isy any means the cause of our present aggravated c neither was that calamity owing to toe want of lic morality or prudence. For people were not now to be seen drunk in the Streets. as was formerly the case, nor were any round unwilling to work, where employment could be had. Vice or crime was notoriously not the effect of depraved principles, hut of dire want. Mr. Owen, therefore, dill not look to the fountain-head of our public He had not, to use an o ld observation, taken the right end i,f the stick. He had Attempted reforma. tion at the top, instead of beginning at the bottom.-- The worthy Gentleman's calculations were o , doubt correct, when he said that a family could be supper. ted for af•10 a year, and therefore 700 families could be suLsisted for sell,ooo. Nuw it the worthy Gets. tleman had bNuri at the right end, lie would have stated that 700 families. and taking lour for each fa mily, 2800 persons could have been maintained for on: year, upon the sum taken from the pocket of the public, to gratify the cupidity of that gross jobber Gearge Canning, in his mission to Lisbon. (Lome aligaurts, mixed with some hisres.) This was, no doubt, A topic upon which every man connected with Ad miniaration, and especially the jobber alluded to, must feel somewhat awkwardly, and, theretore, he should not dwell up .n it ; which, indeed, WAS not at 411 necessary, as Mr sem:l4l4ls transaction alluded to was so thu.oughly understood by retry marl of co:ninon sense in tne country. (Hear, hear.) The worthy Gentleman concluded r• Adun the fol lowing Amendment, which lie proposed in 'lave put after the propu:.ition before the Meeting should be di posed of s` That while wit cypress our graiitude and thanks to Mr. Owen for his unremitting and ben. voient endeavours to peon ore the condos . ' and happiress os the poor, and agree with ham as to the nature and ea.eut tit tlis!ree% and misery that prevails, weary nevertheless of op , that the plan he ha. pittpwiect for tt.ir relief Is nether practicable too calculated to ttaFlVet awing evils. " That in urd.r to apply an adequate remedy to stievai re tit such inaptitude it is necessary to search into the cause and root thereof; that it appears to us that iii. progressive god comfort:as increase of the poor and poors' rates have kept pact. with i he pr.- gre.sive &Edenton:outs 1110 ease of taxation, and that :he c ttttt nem and agriculture or Ilse country, sinking under ire pressure. • ascot found eini.loyntent• fur the labouring el.isties of the cootnauttity. " I hat, without at prevent intpitting how tar the existing gris Vance might have !seen prevented, by a wise. wt.'tilt and just .olson.istrotton rat alliars, we are or opinion. ULU 00 ffe..ival re. mcdy can be looked tor but in the diminution us our r;ataccal Madsen' ; that It is, thereft , re, the illipt7.oll4 duty at the Guresu. 11W0C, ilia Legislature, and the Pt orle, to use every acticable and eonstlittional means to prevent all unnec,iwzry anti impro. Indent reptsiditure of the Piz:.iic Money, and to tbhtitte such a .ystitts of taut itatiots Lit.lreirenchrueitt ipt would tend to roma* sh e ha . pines and provenly of rite nation." Mr. EuzruNn Slyter said, that having been alluded to by d.e Gentleni ho poke last, he had no hezi. tation in stating that he fold an office under Govern. merit—(Lord hiiriv, and cri..-r of " glee) ffs had spoken to oraLr, because he telt it riot to de. precate. the introdeetion of polities tit this discussion, but declared that be did not at all mean to spe a k in the tone of cognitions!. as the last speaker had observed. As to hi. place, it Was in the ; his Fir_lecesciir enjoyed its emoluments toe fory-live years, And he hoped to enjoy them still longer—(Ceirs of 51P f.') Cut he could not admit that the lioitilog 0: thus place deprived flirts of his p: isiieges au and he was surerhe meting would !..s p i su r i a• n , ii he con. srnted to surrender those pit siirges, fse to shrink from the performance of shat he conceived to be his duty. ' ii calling a former speaker to order. who aptieared Lo liim to wander from the question under cot sitleration. Dr. Watrza recommended, that with 4 view to benefit the poor, the pre ens poor rates should be doubled, and the whole fund vested in the hands of Government, for distribution in these districts where distress was most severe. For according to the pre sent arrangement there were many parishes where the rates were enormously high, while in others they were very low, and such a system of inequality ought to be remedied. Major CARTWAVHIT here appeared on the table, and was received with the loudest plaudits. The worthy Major began by o'•serviug, tlit.t Mr. Owen's plan of philanthropy was only to be regarled as 11 political proposition, to be carried into execution by political means. The whole systern was built upon the indisputable position of Universal and uoeaampled distress, and to relieve this distress Mr. Owen brought forward a plan which no one could understand, and w hi c h WAS enfit to be discussed in this or any similar Meeting, from the complexity of its char -Acker. and t h e variety of interests it involved. Here the worthy Major entered into a commentary upon Mr. Owen's book, observing, that it was evident the at:. thor did not look to are radical cause of the tvils which afflicted the country, and uhich notoriously was the pressure of taxation, and this pressure was indisputably the result of the inad,•quate rapt, senta don of the people in Parnametit—(Hear, hear). The CHAIRMAN observed, that he Though! the Tics. nourabkCentleman was wanderin4 from Lite qw,tion, but there being a general cry of " n,,!" Major Cattruoiturir defended the tine of conduct he had taken, but did not resume the thread of his argument where he had been Interrupted. H e s p o k e at considerable length amidst cries of " Qatar, fire ;"...m." Order ; " — " No Pallier," sLi% Thi man and Mr. itowcroit nue:feted ot4taiu such specious and firitti Lure of human conduct, be simplified, and indee Bible shape, it was only judge of its merits. Jred of these inhabitant obtained at an expense a manufactory establish per week for the labour manufacturers were in labour thirty shillings p rich a rivalry ? ‘Voulc t.e executed in these via hot for destroying the reducing the price cf . serially the comforts of :ietc— /star.)_ , the introdu:tion of mac •puce of lalr•ur. That hour would no doubt Lave secured, from the r:on, ref. te Ch tlence,