Star. — London, England, 1822-03-08 00:00:00

• 4. t. , T st Britain.—Orderod. Mr. Woouroan, from the Treasury, presented sundry Re. turns, pursuant to the orders of the House.—Laid cat the table. Mr. PAY= presented the Annual Accounts of the Commis sioners for the Thames Navigation.—Laid on the table. The Irish Population, Regulation 13111 was read a third time and passed. • The Transfer in Aids BID, the Irish Arms and Gunpowder Importation Bill, the Excheneer Bills Bill, and the Segars and Tobacco Duty Mil, went through Committees respectively, and the Reports were received. The LORD CHANCELLOR introduced a Mil to amend certain ver)sal errors which had crept into the Act of Parlia ment for regulating the admission of Attornies and &Sicken. — Read a Mt time.—Adjourned. HOUSE OF COMMONS. A Message from the Lords announced their Lordships' assent to the Irish Population Bill. Mr. W. DUNDAS presented a Petidon from certain indivi dnals, praying to be beard by Counsel against several Clauses in the Edinburgh Police BW.—Ordered to lie , ea the table. Mr. JONES rose to move for the production of Accounts, on which he proposed to shew that the Salt Tax might be ad vantageously abandoned altogether. He moved for Accounts of the number of Officers employed by the Excise in the superin. ti dance and management of the Duties on Salt, the amount of their Salaries and Emoluments, and the total amount of the nett produce of the Tax over the same.—Ordered. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Mr. LOCKHART rose to present a Petition from certain Owners and Occupiers of Land of Witney, in the County of Oxford, on the subject of Agricultural Distress. On looking at the signatures of this Peti tion, he found that all classes concurred in the re presentations here put forth. The case they made out was quite alarming, .and if the mischief were to be ascribed, as he believed it had been by his Majes ty's principal Minister, to superabundant produce, he thought the farmer ought at all events to be pro tected against foreign competitors, and the evils re sulting under particular circumstances froNn the im. portation of grain. He wished such measures adopted as would give the farmer a market, and the labourer employment. The present distress threatened to lead to the most serious consequences. He had been in formed on authority which he could not question, that it had produced some disturbances in the County of Norfolk, and that riots had broken out in the County of Suffolk, which made it necessary to call out the Yeomanry. The Honourable Member for Suffolk would perhaps be able to state whether or not this was true. Mr. GOOCH was sorry to say that that part of the Hon. Gentleman's statements which related to the Counties of Norfolk and Suffolk was too true. Cir cumstances of a disagreeable nature had occurred on the borders of the County of Norfolk, and in the County of Suffolk disturbances had taken place, which had made it necessary to call out a part of the Yeomanry. He was the last man in the House who would unnecessarily endeavour to excite alarm ; but he was bound to admit that these facts were true. He, however, begged to correct a statement which had been made by the Hon. Member for the City cf Oxford (Mr. Lockhart), on a former night, respecting the jail at Bury, which was one of the best regulated establishments of the kind in the kingdom, and which was under the care of a most respectable, humane, and intelligent person. The Hon. Gentleman had stated, that in a jail which was built to contain 100 persons, at present 200' were confined—that of these 200 prisoners 80 were poachers. It had also been said, that of the 80 poachers many had gone out poaching in order that they might get taken up, and be thus saved from starving. He had had a letter from that respectable jailer to whom he had already alluded, which stated, that instead of there being 200 prisoners in the jail, there were at present but 150. For the 80 poachers mentioned, but 40 were in con finement, and inquiries had been made to ascertain whether any of them had gone out to poach to escape stat-ving, by getting themselves taken, and it had been found that among them all there was not a single so bury instance of - that nature. Mr. LOCKHART was glad to hear that the num ber of prisoners was not so great as he had understood it to be, but sorry it was not smaller than it was ac cording to the statement of the Hon. Gentleman. Mr, H. SUMNER mentioned a case in which the poachers confined in a Penitentiary had been employed in a mill. The effect was most beneficial, for it had been stated, after a considerable time had elapsed, that not one of those who had been so employed ever returned to confinement.—The Petition was or dered to lie on the table. Mr. GOOCII rose to present a Petition from cer tain Owners and Occupiers of Land on the subject of Agricultural Distress. He was not disposed to carry his politics so far as to be unwilling to present a Pe tition from any class of persons because they hap pened to differ from him. Ile had therefore to state that this Petition was respectfully drawn up, and he hoped it would receive from the House the attention it deserved. Having said this, there were some cir cumstances connected with the Petition which he wished to advert to, and some part of his own con- • duct which he desired to explain. This Petition was voted at a large Meeting, called by a Requisition, very respectably signed, but it had been so managed, that he believed not ten Freeholders, from Ipswich to Yarmouth, knew that such a Requisition was about to be forwarded. There was nothing in it but what all the Freeholders, whatever their political sentiments, might have subscribed to, he therefore did not see why it should have been kept from persons who dif fered in some respects from those by whom it was • drawn up, but such was the course pursued. When the day of meeting arrived, he attended at Stow-mar ket, as did several friends of his, who lived within a morning's ride of the place. Ten of these agreed there with ten of the party opposed to them to draw up a series of Resolutions, which should be so framed that they might pass unanimously, as it was admitted that it would be wise to keep politics out of the way altogether. The Resolutions were drawn up, and he thought they were going off unanimoudy, when an indiv►dual there, of whom he had no right to com plain, as he was not a party to the agreement which bad been entered into, broke in upon the arrange ment by moving a Resolution which went to call for a Parliamentary Reform. Those Gentlemen who bad come so an arrangement with his friends, se- 1 coined And supported this proposition, and they then new. in the waggon. He was surprised at this, as ,ag such a part was taking the County completely by surprise. At this new Meeting the Reform proposi-. ' tion was carried. His worthy colleague, whose ab sence from the House he mush tegretted, would have supported it had he been in his place, because he, from the conviction of his honest mind, was as much in favour of Parliamentary Reform as he (Mr. Gooch) was opposed to it. He himself, however, wished for Reform where it could be effected with safety. He (Mr. Gooch) wished to guard against a lavish expenditure—he wished to punish and repress corruption wherever it might be detected, but he could not go the length of calling for that alteration in the Constitution which some thought necessary.— He had mentioned the indisposition of his Hon. Col league to account for his not being there to support the Petition, which had been carried about six weeks for signatures, to the prayer of which, as it now stood, he was sorry to say that he could not subscribe. Mr. COKE said, constituted as that House was, he had no hope that the Petition now presented, or any other, would be attended to. The Hon. Gentleman had told them the Meeting was very numerous, and so he (Mr. Coke) understood it to have been ; and 1-e could not therefore understand how the County could be so much taken by surprise as the Hon. Gentleman supposed. From the conduct pursued by that House, in rejecting these Petitions, it was clear that no relief was to be expected without a Reform in Parliament. The plan lately brought forward by Ministers would not relieve the landed interest. A proof of this might be found in the price of bailey having gone down from 4s. lid. to 4s. 6d. the bushel. The Noble Mar quis treated these subjects with a degree of hu mour, which, in consequence of a certain understand ing nd ing among them, passed off very well there; but for the statement he had lately made, it was to him per fectly incomprehensible, and he could not make either bead or tail of it. A speech which had preceded it by a few evenings, sheaving the necessity of a reduc tion of taxation, was much more comprehensible All felt that it was to a diminution of the public bur dens that they must look for teal substantial relist£ At present, however, to petition was useless, for the Noble Marquis sat there ready to overturn all the hopes of the sufferers. No relief could be hoped for but from a Reform in that House. The plea brought forward for the relief of Agriculture would not suffice. He could wish the Noble Marquis and some of his colleagues would do him (Mr. Coke) the honour to accompany him to Mark-lane, to witness the ridicule with which his plan was treated there. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY did not rise for the purpose of discussing the question of Parlia mentary Reform. He had hoped to see the Ho. nourable Gentleman (Mr. Coke) at present in a better temper of mind. He did not think the Ho. nourable Gentleman had a right to complain of not being able to make head or tail of his plan, as he had been of late occupied with subjects of much greater interest I Had he been less occupied he might have heard some good reasons for adopting the plan which Government had brought forward in preference to that which the Hon.Gentleinan would recommend. The Gentlemen of Mark-lane understood their inte rest better than to suppose the price of corn would rise through what was called a Parliamentary Re form, if public credit were not maintained. Were taxes taken off beyond what could be spared without injury to public credit, Mark-lane would be the first to cry out, and to feel that it must suffer from a vio lation of national faith. All the interests of the country were happily so bound up together, that one could not be injured without prejudice to the rest.— The motion for a Parliamentary Reform might have been unanimously carried at a County Meeting, but without speaking disrespectfully of such Meetings, he must object to its being supposed that it embodied all the deliberative Gentlemen of the County. Mr. MACDONALD and Mr. LZNNARD rose at the same time. The latter Gentleman was named by the SPEAUR, but several voices called out the name of the former. Mr. LENNARD begged to offer a few words not withstanding the opposition made by the Honourable Member for Durham. Mr. LAMBTON begged pardon of the Speaker, but really did not understand that the Hon. Gentle.. man had any right to allude personally to him. Mr. LENNARD remarked, the Hon. Gentleman bad called out another name when he (Mr. Lennard) rose to speak. The SPEAKER said, nothing was more common, when more than one Member rose at the same mo ment, than for Members to call out the different names. 'This was not intended to mark disrespect; it was to be supposed that each called out the name of the person he had first seen on his legs. Mr. LENNARD had alluded to the Hon. Member for Durham, conceiving him to be out of order. He then proceeded to speak at some length on the con tent* of the Petition. The Petitioners repelled the idea that any part of their distress sprung from over production, and were satisfied that they could obtain no relief but by a reduction of taxes ; and he argued that a reduction of taxes was the most desirable mea sure that could be adopted. Mr.M ACDONALD said, the admirably well-timed pleasantry of the Noble Marquis en the occasion of the presentation of this most melancholy Petition,' might be very satisfactory to his own mind, but he must allow him to say, that it would not be very sa tisfactory to those who were attending to the pro gress of their deliberations out of doors. The .Noble Marquis might taunt his Hon. Friend. the Member for Norfolk, on his domestic affairs, but his Hon. Friend held a place in the esteem and affections of his constituents and the country, which the Noble Marquis might envy, but could not claim to share. —Most unlike himself would his Hon. Friend have acted, if any addition to his own domestic comfort and happiness could make him forget the distresses of those for whom he bad never ceased to interest himself, or alter his sentiments with respect to the cause of them. He (Mr. Macdonald) had not heard the whole of the speech of the Hon. Member for .spell. demo, which Made 'them very different when they came there from what they appeared to be elsewhere. He had spoken of the Meeting as having been very respectably attended., Speaking thus he had but de scribed it as a mere Parish Meeting might be de. scribed ; but the fact was, a Meeting more remark able for attendance of persons of importance in the neighbourhood, and for numbers, bad never been held in the precincts of that County. From six to 8,000 persons had been present. The lion. Member had said, the Requisition had been carried about for six weeks for signatures. ' Mr. GOOCH said he had described the Requisition to have been sent round for signatures, and to have been carefully concealed from those whose political sentiments differed from the politics of the Gentle men by whom it was drawn up. It was the Petition of which he had spoken in the terms just attributed to him by the Hon. Member. Mr. MACDONALD resumed. It was unfortu nately one of the circumstances of the present times, that an opinion prevailed it was allbut useless to peti tion that House. The farmer in consequence, in many cases, would not go a hundred yards from his own dwelling fir the purpose of joining in a Petition. In the County of Cambridge, but the other day, a Re-. solution had been come to, declaring that it was in vain to petition Parliament. The evils that oppressed the country were not known to spring from any par ticular visitation 01 PROVIDENCB, and therefore it was natural to conclude that they bad their origin in po litical mismanagement. But these Petitioners, it ought to be borne in mind, had never claimed to be relieved at the expense of any other class of their fel low-subjects. That which they called for was an un sparing, uncompromising, severe system of retrench ment in the public expenditure, and a proportionate reduction of taxation. The Petition attributed the evil to the right cause, and declared the remedy could only be found in a reformed House of Corn. morn, which would supply a more efficient check to the improvidence of the Government. The Honour able Member for Suffolk (Mr. Gooch) had seemed to think with the majority of the late Meeting. His professions of a determination to call for retrench ment—his declarations in favour of economy, had filled the Market-place--but having retired from the Meeting, he soon returned to his old habits again, -He did not know whether it was from being flattered by the Noble Marquis, or some of his colleagues, with the title of g , the leading Country Gentleman," or from any other cause, that when he got into that House, he had at once been induced to catch at the shilling compromise of the Chancellor of the Exche quer, and close the door, as far as depended on him, against all further retrenchment. On the debate on the Salt Tax, that abominable impost, the Hon. Gen tleman, with another Hon. Member who had in dulged in similar professions, might be said to have perpetuated that cruel, undefended, and indefensible tax. When he used the words, " the leading Coun try Gentleman," he begged not to be understood as speaking disparagingly of that character. But if the Country Gentlemen in that House deviated from the course they were formerly accustomed to pursue, to become on every occasion subservient to the views of the Government, such conduct must eventually lead ' to the annihilation of all their importance. The Chan cellor of the Exchequer, the recorder of the famous anti-depreciation Resolutions, had come down to that House three years ago with certain Resolutions, de claratory of the importance of establishing a clear Sinking Fund of five millions. That a surplus in come applicable to the reduction of the National Debt was desirable, he would admit; but what had been the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentleman ? He who had destroyed the Sinking Fund of Mr. Pitt— whose name be had ever been ready to glorify, had come down to the House with the Resolutions to which he bad adverted, after giving his sanction to a measure which could not fail of adding to the public burdens what was equal to ten or twelve millions— he alluded to the resumption of cash payments. — What did the Honourable Member for Suffolk do oa that occasion? When the Agricultural Horse Tax came before the House he did not remember that he had differed from the majority of the House, but he had some slight recollection that the Honourable Member had made use of a homely, good, country gentlemanlike phrase, " that they could have no more of a cat than her skin." Now the Honourable Gentleman caught at the shilling on malt as the one tiring needful, as the only thing necessary. He wished him to look to the various sources of ex pense—to the state of the Civil List, to the salaries given, the pensions granted, and doing this, he had no doubt he would find it possible for a willing Go vernment, besides giving up the Malt Tax, to give up the duty on salt: aye, and even the leather, and soap, and candle duties also. But the Honourable Gentleman believed that Ministers could not do this. Why did he believe it? Because they told him so. In the same way they had formerly told him that they coal not go on without the Property 'fax.-- This, however, had been given up, as he believed it was found that the country could not go on with it. Then it was said that they could not do without seven Lords of the Admiralty ; but the House the other night had very unceremoniously taken away two of them, and now it was seen that Ministers were pre paring to go on with five. So, if the House chose to make similar reductions in other establishments, it would be found that Ministers would still be able to carry on the Government of the country; and those attached to them need not feel the slightest alarm from an idea that they would give up their places. He begged pardon for troubling the House so long. It was alwa) s more agreeable to him to hear what others said than to speak himself ; but on the present occasion he thought it necessary to state what he had offered to the House. The present evils he traced to that fatal measure, the Bank Restriction Act of 1797. The remedy on which the llouse must in creased consumption duty to keep aniadi fix its eye was that whi c h w ou ld meet t h e ev il, by i n - faith the nilitr - Ho. nourable Member for NOrfolk with any disrespect.—. He bad thought the Honourable Gentleman had made a good-humoured attack on that plan which' he had brought forward. It would have been difficult for him to answer seriously, without going into a Wide field of argument, and he had, therefore, wished to repel the attack with the same good humour in which it had been made, while briefly stating why he could not concur in the view taken of this subject by the Honourable Gentleman. Mr. GOOCH said, after the number of vhargee which had been preferred against him, he hoped be might be allowed to make some reply, The SPEAKER remarked, the question noiv wat, that the Petition should lie on the table, If the Hon. Gentleman wished to move that it should be printed", he could speak at any length on that question. If he objected to make such a motion, the House would probably deviate from the usual course, and permit him to reply. Mr. GOOCH said be would move that the Peti. tion should be printed. The Petition, which complained of Agricultural Distress, prayed for a reduction of Taxes, and Parlia mentary Reform, was ordered to lie on the table. Mr.GOOCH rose to move that it should be printed. Charges had been preferred against him, as if he had committed some great political crime. He had been spoken of as it he had pledged himself to vote for the repeal of particular taxes. He had done no such thing. He had said that he was as anxious as his Hon. Friend could be to vote for the repeal of all taxes that could be taken off consistent with the public safety, and good faith to the public creditor. Th e Hon. Member said, he had brought this Petition for ward earlier than the usual hour for public business. While he was absent that day, his name had been called over by the Speaker. On his entering the House it was called over a second time, and then he presented the Petition, rather sooner than he other i% ise should. It was said that the People of England were convinced of the necessity of an immediate Re form of that House. He believed that the People were misled out of doors, and induced to take up this opinion; but the opinion of the community at large was widely different. It was asked who would now petition that House ? and it was said the farmer would hardly go a hundred yards for that purpo-e.— Yet in the same breath they were told how numerously the late Meeting was attended—eight thousand i er sons having been present. For his genes al conduct in Parliament, he had only to say, he wanted no in structions from the Hon. Gentleman. So lung as the people of Suffolk were pleased to send him to that House, unshackled, as they had hitherto sent him, he would perform his duty. The lion. Member for Nor folk had talked of the pleasing measures of the Noble Marquis, as if these led those who voted with Minis ters to lay aside their judgment. This reminded him of a foolish incident which had occurred a few days ago. He happened to be shooting with a gartieke2per a few days back, who had a dog with him winch suddenly broke away and pursued a hare. This nas a great fault, as every Gentleman who %sent shoo ing well knew. But the game k:eper, however, fou it excusable, remarking—. , W.:y r.O know, Sir, a hare is the most enticing of vermin al the vor d, xc in a woman - -(A laugh).—He supposed the Hon. Gentle man would be inclined to add, and es cept the Noble Marquis and the Chancellor of the Exchequer"— (Laughter).—The Petition was ordered to be printed. POST OFFICE REGULATIONS. Mr. HUME said, that he would not detain the House long with the motions whiCh he was about to submit. He had already shewn them to the secre tary of the Treasury, for the purpose of ascert: whether there could be any subjection to their • pro. duction? Not finding that any objecti.ni won ba made, he would not detain the House bs more • than one or two remarks. It appeared that the char ge for management of the Post Office amounted to 617 'AO/. and when such a sum was paid, the House our ;:it to be informed of all the particulars of its applicat on.— The sum which he had just mentioned was inor• than half the whole entire revenue of that establish ment. It was his intention to have submitted t mo tion respecting the number of Postmasters, bt it the notice which the Noble Lord (Normanby) hid rivm having the same object, it would be unnecessai -y fur him to trouble the House on the subject. In all; rding to the Post Office, he begged to be understood is not objecting to the general arrangements of that cis •part ment—they were such as reflected great credit m the Gentleman (Mr. Freeling) who directed them. 'There was one regulation, by which newspapers wet • se:::, free of pcstage, to all parts of England, Scotian i, and Ireland ; but this indulgence did not extend t o the Colonies—for the Post Office charged for tralssmit ting a daily paper, the whole cost of which was net more than nine pounds, the sum of 51. 55. They charged 41. 4s. for a paper published. three days a week, and 21. 2s. for a weekly paper. These sums were not paid in as a part of the public Revenue, but collected and paid into a separate office as fees, which were afterwards distributed among the clerks. Now, he objected to this on two grounds. In the first. place, he thought that the remuneration of the clerks in Public Offices ought to be by fixed salaiics, and not by fees; and next, he considered, by loading a newspaper with such heavy duties, a check was given to their circulation, and thereby a great limitation to the consumption of stamps. He had it from very good autitotity, that if this tax were taken off, the circulation of newspapers in our Colonies would be increased by one-half, a most important consideration in point of revenue. Besides, he thougin the Colonies ought to be placed on the same footing with Englan.lv Scotland, and Leland ; and, when it was considered that the packets only carried letters and newspapers, she increase on the number sent would be no incon venience. Another point which he thought worthy the consideration of the House was, that regulation. by which the foreign papers were ne trly excluded. A French paper, the price of which andially did not exceed 72 francs, or about £3, would c Ist the person who received it through the Post OtEc: lurk, a Will • . - . . • • • • 4.* \w . , . , ' 54 r' . •• . 4 '. ' • * .4, ~ ',..'. :' : '''& 4 . v •JIN,N '-... ~ ' s J . " ' • • , dof - place dnnber finances d iinished in stic rath h e i t i . si than tnedetl io. ane t ad b etobt ut public credit he would contend would 1.."--.22"m".....im"a"-u-.I.6"PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDING'7.— entered upon a wide fiel d ttlit niMil lta would not put ase Reselu ‘so wi Th ee e ti srue ------ : eri ld o . f t :' . 4* : ''. ii . Ingim beforo c i the ibe t .. i Paiticla u :sti . osblelt hs h e av „A in2 lib been i c t i ll ,rea tcw at. s d ed t ' . . ' sua m l a r ..-- . .t?. take the c....,kiy nir ... HOUSE OF LORDS, MARCH 7. ?giving been sunibm tu , urthe ProPn it. '• w' tif tliM 14414dimarkhlfr 1 not be secured . by prolonging a state of things which r him, and s k en id ito insubordination produced by distress on the p an The Marquis of Inwetans tool the oaths and his seat as off petkfonieg for a eform in . .t, and he that Mellon. Friend Wilk to stsaie !.threetened serious disturbances from the dispositio n Baron Kass. thereforebslievathat the be i f ili iti r could do was 'pecans himself. Ha wished* The Bishop of EXETER moved for Copies of all the Res , -y,. j:... '" A.. the g ee i ng .. He (91r. Gooch) and the few have been happy to cooratillate hitn on his basing of the Peopl e . ports of the Conunissioners appohned to inquire int o the state 7.'"! and afterwards the Sheriff done justice to his constituents, and completely vin. The M ar q uis of LONDONDERRY woul d be of Charhahle Institutions f or du Education of the robs in mends with him retired , dieated himself. But it should seem that in t h a t eery to have expressed himself unsuitably on ti Great Rritain.—Ordered. was persuaded to call on the instant a new Meeting, _____....., „,nar, R. :. .h. ...smarm. He was surprised at this, as acting House there . was something like a , spell wt on Gen- subject before the House, or to ha ve treated the lio- • - -- . . !ie____.. , ..i...._ .I._ nourable Member for Norfolk with any disrespect Wil be the 0 ;f