Star. — London, England, 1817-03-08 00:00:00

this subject from Horsham, in Sussex,. it acquainted with that Borough, but he that it had been adopted at a most orderly ihich had b en .ssembled by individuals, in ice of the Ba:liff iettisingto call a meeting., i t s on w a s eroo .4 ht up anJ read. lt com- Sinecures and unmerited Pensions, of the hails arising from a fictitious paper currency, of the = mese standing army in time of peace, and of the itate of the Representation of the Commons; and prayed the House not to pass new Acts, infringing the liberties ..t the subject, as the existing laws were, in their (-pinion, sufficient to preserve the peace. Sir I'. SHELLEY bore testimony to the orderly character of. the meeting, but he was authorized to ssy that the Bailiff had not refused the use of the Town Hall on the occasion. Mi. HURST said it was true, that the persons who convened (fie meeting bad applied for the Town Hall. The Bailiff then requested that the Requisi tion should be shown him in writing, and a Requisi tion was accordingly thew[) him, couched in general tee ms, whereupon he consented to grant the use of t' e Hall. This having been done the framers of the requisition published it, with an addition to this ef ;Kt—. We invite all•Labourers, Mechanics, and Apprentices to attend the Meeting, 'as they are equally interevet: in its objects, while they pay taxes on coat.. candles, Stc." On looking at the petition e e f o u n t etat there were from ten to twenty signa tu:, ia the same hand-writing—(lleer, hear.) Whe iser that was an übjectiga to receiving the petition be nit pretend to deetare., Asia the good order of the Meaing. which livid been praised, it was not very remarkable. A blue flag had been brought out et 3 piol:c house—(!dear ' ) and when a Gentleman present attempted to address the Meeting, his voice was drowned in the clamour which often prevailed at su ch meetings. He was authorised by the Magis trates and Clergy, and the most respect.te inhabi tants cf Horsham, to disavow their connection with the petition, or the sentiments ie contained. The SPEAKER said, as to the point of order on which he was appealed to, all Petitions presented to the House must fie signed by the bands or marks of the Petitioners themselves ; and if they were not, it was contrary to the rules of the House to receive them. Sir fRANCIS BURDETT said, the fancy of any Honourable Member as to the' hand‘wiiting of signa tures, could not, he conceived, be a sufficient ground for tl:e rejection of a Petition. As to the disorderly conduct or the Meeting, what had it amounted to? A blue fi ig had been displayed which the Honoura ble Menber stated to have created much noise. Without s imething more solid to support his allega tion, the Honourable Member (Mr. Hurst) should not have brought it forward. Lord FOLKSTONE said, there were many re spectable signatures to the Petition, though he had not thougi.t it his duty to examine the whole of them. There were certainly many different hands, and if a halt dozen names were written by one person, it would not certainly vitiate the whole. What had been said by the Honourable Member (Mr. Hurst) ren dered the Petition worthy of some consideration. 'He had said, (bat all the*Magistrates of that district were hostile to the Petition; if the Bill before the House had passed, no such Meeting could have been held, and consequently no * such Petition could have come up to the House. ha C. BURRELL read an extract of a letter, by wbico he wee inlorined that many names were Misted in e same hand writing. He thought it sachet. sin gu , ; , e people of Horsham should complain of the stat Repreeentation. because a Burgess of Huts , its, being a Freeholder, had a right to vote for no lest than six Members of Perlisment—(e laugh)—t wo for Horsham, two for the Rape of Breat her, and two ler the County of Sussex. Mr. CURWEN thought it would be bard on the Petitioners to reject the Petition because more than, one name was in the same hand, while there were so many genuine signatures. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought it would be more advisable, as there were certainly many real signatures, to su ffer the 'Petition to lie on the table. The Noble Lord (Lord Fake stone) had mimed to a Bill before the House to pre vent Seditious Meetings; but he was mistaken in the objact of the Bill. It would at any time be compe tent for seven householders to call a Meeting t and cvnsequently such a Meeting as that it which the Petition was adopted might bale been held, even if that Bid had passed into a Law. Sir J GRAHAM said, that in many of the Petitions for Reform which had been presented to the House, there bad been a great many signatures in the same hand. As to the petition from the city he was connected with (Carlisle) out of 6 or 7000 signatures, he was informed; that there were not more titan sor 600 genuine ones. He believed that very few, it any, - householders had signed it. Mr. CURWEN said be differed from his Hon ',league (Sir J. Graham) as to the petition from Aliee. Though that petition was not entrusted to stn, he was loaned that there were a great number - %cry respectable names ; he imagined his Hon. 1 r :league must have been very much mistaken as to signatures. The Meeting had been extremely ce - ,rly, the promoters of it endeavoured, to the ut ..:st of their power, to get it called by authority e- o am..l Lot having succeeded, they did every thing to it the appearance of a regular Meeting. SI J. GRA Htt.M said, that though the names of , most respectable persons in and about Carlisle V 't' 7 e axed to that petition, he wa s assured it was sittlti.ut their consent. Lard CAS TLEREAGH observed, that the gross .tie of the right of petitioning had gone a great ray to lower the authority of this valuable privilege et the sebjects On the other hand, he should be I i IPf7 Y 4 "r7 if cm account of a. fraud practised by a t they were to reject a petition which was really _'"IO es' by "early persons. • This. however. ought to liicui c „..,d on te e people, that there was nothing teed to their 'own right as an abuse of it. :Jr. WYNN thought it highly proper to put an. tilt' to a practice which involved a violation of the _P_ - . Tileges o f t h e H ouse , an d m i g ht b r ing the right rettitiotiing itself into dispute. If the Henwribit L'''iner (Sir J. Graham) was certain of the facts of he spoke, it was his ditty to follow up the 4 ""on Phil% he had made ; and if it could be n r' -d against any individual that be bad written the '"of another -Without bit consent, he should be tie ,, e;;,t up to receive mio l dign pajamas*. • Mr. BROUGHAM said, that an agreed in the candid decision of the Noble Lord ( Lord Castlereagh) —(Cries of No! from Serjeant Besr and a few others). Well, they should tee h,w many there were who would differ from the Noble L"rd—(a laugh). That declaration of the Noble Lord, as to the Petition before them, was very candid ; hut as to his argu ment to throw discredit on all Petitions, from more than one name being in the same band, he would put it to the good sease of the House, whether a Petition of 20 or 30,000 names was tokbe set down as of no weight, because one person (an enemy;•he ' had a right to assume, to the cause of the Petition) had put a few names to it without authority ? He did not approve altogether of the system which had been pursued with respect to Petitions ; be thought it would have been much wiser to let the people draw up their complaints in their own language ; but he could not go the length of saying, that because they were couched in these terms they were of no avail.— As to many of the instances in which the signatures were in the same hand, he had no doubt that they per. fectly expressed the wishes of those whose names were written. The signatures were frequently the names of persons who, though present, and consenting, ei ther could not write, or, from being unhabituated to write, were not disposed to tale the trouble. He spoke from having witnessed such scenes. While Petitions were signing, he had seen persons apply to a man who was writing, and was more expert than themselves, to sign for them. In very few cases in deed would it be loon.' that the names were written' without the consent of those who bore them. As to the printed forms which were made use of, though he did not approve of them, they were not on that ac count to be supposed not to speak the sense of the people. He would put a cast:—Let the Noble Lord (Lord Castlereagh) draw up a Petition in favour of the Gagging Bill or the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus, or in support of all his measures, and send it round the country, if he could obtain one-tenth as many signatures as had been put to the Petitions for Reform, he would then agree that by such means the sense of the people could not be estimated. Alter a few words from Mr. Sri Aare and Mr. Ser . I rani has; the Petition was ordered to lie on the table. . • IMPRISONMENT. Mr. BENNETT rose to move for a return of per sons confined in the House of Correction under the 89th and 40th of the King: He stated to the House that two persons of the name of Evans (father and son) had been committed to confinement. The father he had heard and believed was an intelligent man, and except the crime now alleged against him, he never beard any improper conduct imputed to him, and yet he (Mr. Bennett) was informed he was thrown into the same cell with a common thief who had turned King's evidence. That the son was se. parated from the father, and was confined in the foul ward also with common thieves. When persons of their description were confined it !night to be in a proper place. It should be remembered that these people were perfectly innocent in the eye of the law; and that they should be treated as such, they should be confined in places suited to their station in life, and should be furnished with proper accommodation. However wild their fanaticism might be, they still must, in the eye of the law, be pronotwed innocent, until they were proved to be guilty; andwas it pro per, he asked, that such persons should be confined in the same apartment with common thieves ? Loid CASTLEREAGH said, that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bennett) bad endeavoured to excite the feelings of the' House upon grounds which depen dedniore upon what he had-heard from others, than from what bad come within his own knowledge.— He regretted that the Hon. Gentleman had brought this matter, 'before the House so suddenly. It came upon them quite by surprise, and he could not help observing, that this practice of moving for papers, without giving notice, was calculated to produce the greatest inconvenience. He,- therefore, wished that the Hon. Gentleman would, for the present, withdraw his motion, and give notice. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, that the public was very much indebted to the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bennett) for bringing this matter under the consideration of the House; however, he would take the liberty of suggesting that it might be as well to withdraw the motion for the present, to give notice, and then to adult to the matter. But even without any notice, he was of opinion that Ministers ought to be prepared to give every liatisfaction relative to the prisons. Parliament had placed the greatest confi dence in them by the suspension of the Habeas Cor pus, and it would be a great abuse of that confidence, if they were not always ready to afford satisfactory information in every matter relating to imprisonment. Mr. BATHURST denied there existed any ground of complaint, and for the best reason. These persons had been examined, and the question asked them was, Had they any hardship to complain of ? Their an swer was, nothing in the manner of their confinement, however they were dissatisfied with the circumstance of their confinement itself. After their. second exa mination, the same question had been repeated, and answered in the _same way. , Both had been removed to the same prison. to facilitate the interviews of Mrs. Evans with her husband and son. Books had been, required by one, and granted him. Nor was there any truth in• the statement, that the person in the same cell with Evans the elder was a thief. Mr. BENNET tonderstOod him to be a thief who had impeached his companions in crime, and was, therefore, not let down iotb the common part of the jail, through the apprehensions entertained lest he should be punished for the evidence be had thus given, by the rest of the prisoners. He had no ob jecticn to withdraw - the Motion, and give notice of his intention to move it on Monday. He then moved, 'as connected with the motion to be discussed. upon Monday, 'foe a Return of tot e e ff ective strength of the Commissioned Officers, NUn-commissioned Officers aid Yrivates of the Army of the country, together with the number of herpes, on the Ist January, 18t7. Lord PALMERSTON thought it might perhaps be made up, if con6nedto Great Britain.—Ordered. Sir FRANCIS BURDETT presamted a Peddes horn die In. habitants of &Mini raj* for Patilassentaty Reforms. GeoesaI.MITCHELL said, It was a. snare a Paddies host the ioyal inhabitants of lidfast, than the Sypilelds Pithiest was frame the loyal lababitants of Leaden. Sack a Releases thli /To. diaaprayed for would lead to a Rs essladsa. tiIITRANCIS BURDETT replied, that the passe Mistral had stated nothing against the realm width ewe hays any weight. Belfast was in every way a meet sagionwate newm, and any Petidon waning front it deserved the AGM ortfirsestailities. libitoaty kind of Beprossatadoe, howsearorisimb balms as . j.,y0.1 . was dial of.fa tofteh Dar; tieb.—(itestc). l sin the .o:tibia:loft of the Marquis of Donegal!, and the gallant Gererai stood in that House as the ItrpreseutJtive—not of Belfast—but of the Noble Marquis--(Nrite, hear.) Nothing was runts natural that that it should apply to the Legislature for r, lief from such an injury. General MI reHELL was scarcely known to Noble Mar. gels. After Iresidence of bye yens iu that town, be inlishitants had been good enough io r.,turo 'heir Member. The Petition was rea , l, and kid on the table; as were also nne presented by Sir FRABC/5 Rotas rn from Ash y•di•-la•Zotich, and one wont jfus•on—with anotiier from the Joiners and Car penters o; the Metropolis, on the subject of !Worm. Lord roz.KiTONL presented a Petition from the Borough of Newbury, in Berkshire, prayi a '<thorn in Patliametit.--Or dered to lie on tl:c table.—rhe House theta went through tire other Orders of the Day and adjourned. tent on t He was ant •aaderstood race. r cl asegliene.e The Petit •,f of f. . vas arisinff Nut.: Hors for th laugh) her, a Mr POW one it msny h thong instal to tie :tune vent objtc tent cvnse Petiti that Sit Petit the 1- th hew sign th.n few, cUe Cul him, s tc:le tae arc, anJ gift we! K.; c! fit,' ; eat ;s• 01 is“! TIP, IY%. : I ,N S i Alt. LONDON. SATURDAY, MARCH 8, 1817. PK:CE THIS DAY TWELVE O'CLOCK: Itshut—Urns. ma. :All —fur act. 691 7 4 per Cent. shut-3 per _rut. Navy 19,1 d Eschequ,r B Its 64. leis. BUlldb 41 pr. The presentation of two Petitions respecting the pressure occasioned by the operation of the Poor Laws, brought on last night in the House of Com mons a discussion of rather au interesting nature. We are happy to observe that certain points which have been alluded to in the STAII, on this important subject, have not been altogether without effect in that quarter where alone there is any power to apply an efficient remedy, •to the injustice that pervades the whole system. But we must press on the considera tion of those who have begun to open their eyes to the nature and real causer of Ike iyih, the necessity of adopting some means to gain correct information on the points to which we have particularly endeavoured to call their attention, in remarks before sulonitted to our Readers; for, till this shall be done, no adequate idea can be formed of the labour that must he gone through, and without this you will only act as sca vengers of the threshold instead of cleansing out this Augean stable. We have already exposed the folly—the delusion which some practise on themselves and others respect ing the proportion which the amount of the Poor Rates bears to the Revenue, or to any charge on the Public, when they take its nominal amount as all ex pended in the maintenance of pauper:. Tne rates as collected in many parishes for years past are not poor rarer, but rates for labourers wages. We have stated that the present system of the Poor laws is indebted for all its worst features to the stupidity, the igno• ranee, the cupidity, and dishonesty, not of the Land- , holders and Agriculturalists alone, but of the in and the Manufacturing classes.--but especially of the for mer. In consequence we have met with some abuse from fools who cannot bear to look troth in the face; but we are happy to state, that we have received letters of thanks for our frankness from some of the first characters, both in the Agricultural and Mann. factoring classes--letters expressing the full crok `Lion of the writers that tll justice shall be made the basis if every procedure in providing relief for thew who have a fair claim to it—till the law shall be put on such a footing, that sine cl iss shall• not be able to screeo itself by throwing the burden upon another—in a word, till each intii 7 vidual shall see St impossible for himself, by any arti fice, to escape paying his own fair quota, no man can be secured against bearing that portion of the rioad which Should fall upon another. Lord CASTLEREAGH, we are happy to am, has been looking at this question in its proper light, and has truly stated, that the sum included under poor rates, which hat risen from a million and a half to seven millions annually, should not be considered as drawn from the pockets of the people as poor rates. For its -stance, when a farmer pays 20.. in name of a poor role, 15s. of it is " actually wages I His Lord slip did not wish to be understood as stating the proportion with perfect precision. The fact, however, is, that, with respect to some parishes, he has actually L kept under the mark. Were we not justified then in calling thii a robbery ? Is not the labourer worthy of his wages ? And shall the man who honestly labours for what he eats and drinks be calumniated. is a pauper living on hasty wrung from his neighbours. ,by the operation of laws acknowledged by all to be oppressive and unjust is their operation ? In one word, where should the stigma fall ? On the honest labourer who enjoys nothing for which he does not give an equivalent ?:—or on those by whom the hire of the laborer sae has reaped their :Adds has bees hefts barb *fraud l'--Yes, 4 fraud I by fraud of the grossest and most shameful kind—because of that collective 'and Corporate quality which hardens the defrauder by the extent of the numbers which it embraces in this league of injustice, of robbery. and oppression. Let those . who have been snared into this compact with iniquity only calmly think of the enormity of the wickedness, and they will cease to wonder that their riches are cerrapied, sad their :anneals &tow iseth-eates. We would shame you ftom the evil course of which you are now reaping the fruits; but unhap pily for asankind it is in the very nature of corporate fraud to drive away shame. Where each lends his equal aid in the work of fraud, none can look the other out of countenesoe. Perhaps a better ac• quaintaace with the subject Usk, product a convic tion that it would be 'wire for your interest tu_act I honestly, than to persist in the present practice---1 And here, also, the light , begins to break in upon you. We have already intimated t hatthefrawd—fori weohoneverceaseaocall things by their proper oam:s 7 .that the raker, has not been confined to the Agri-1 cuinerists, bat we have ascribed to them the palm of cupidity taa Moir look ut the fact, and at the result that bas-followed, and then say, ye Agriculturists, whether it be fue your intact to con. throe the tysten4 ? How could you ever imagine, thonph you had the ingenuity first to contrive the piactice of co.;vertiag a healthy-bodied labourer, in actual employ. under your ou•n eyes upon yo , ir c.wn farms, into et poutscr, that the Merchants and Manufactuters would not, in sane way or other, contrive to be even with you? How could you ever bring yourselves to believe that in a race of peculation, you would not be eventually beaten by a class of men to whom the antients gave Mercury, the pi of thieves, as their tu.elary deity ? You set them the example —you dug the pit iuto which you yourselves have fallen! Lord Coal RAN e gave you last night a faint portrait cf a part, but only a small part, of the' evil.—We mean to make up kr his deficiency as soon as *e can find room—nor will the picture, however disgust ing, be flattering to the worshippers of the Caducean divinity. Let it suffice at prsent to remark, that some of yourselves, instead of hailing, as a bright discovery, the mean: you had devised to tax the Manufacturers • for the wi.ges of your own La bourers, ought to have had sense entaigh to see, that in some places the balance could not fail to tern againat you—whent ver a diminution of the demand fur manufacturing labour should put it in the power of the masters to tlitow their workmen upon the poor rates—for a part of their wages—as you had done before them. You were the aggressors:—and why because you knew that none had power or influence enough to prevent you. On the question whether the Fundht,lders should be made to contribute to the Poor•rates, we 0841 give our opinion in a future parer—and we shall do it frankly, being fully convinced, front the numerous letters which we have received, that we render a real service to the community by stating truth without disguise or circJmlocution. In our remarks we dis claim every intentii n of personality, nor will any but weak men takisuch a view of our strictures. WW equally disclaim the arrogance of infailib.lity ; for so earnest is our desir: thatthese subjects should be well understood, that we would r.4.tice at the detection of any mistakes we may fall into, in our exposure of tvilF, and pursuit of what is good and practicable. We conclude with one remark. information is much wanted on this subject. Could Returns be ob. twined from the diffcrent Pat ishes by an order-of Par liament, of the proportion which the rate for wages has actually borne for sswe years to the rate for the poor? We say that the Public pay two rater, under one name. If Die Returns could be obtained, they would be very useful ; but only fraudulent %tat emonts could be hoped for—the Public will be better wationt them. The wisdom of Parliamant may perhaps he able to c•in trive sometl.iag efficient on this rint. If so, it is well worth much labour. We have this morning itc,:ived the Paris Papers of Tuesday and Wednesday last. • The discussion on the Budget seems at h at draw ing to a close. In the Sitting of the 3d instant, the Chamber came to the most important article of the whole—the Mean: cf Credit. The Project of the Loan was attacked with vehemence by M. de VILLRLII and other Members ; and defended by the Minister of Finances in an extemporary speech of considerable ability. M. de la Bovitoonstve,demanded an ad journment until the conditions of the Loan should be laid before the Chamber, but the reply of the Keepie of the Seals contained so full a devOopement of these conditions, as wholly to supersede the necessity of any such proposition. M. LAVIITa followed in sup port of Ministers. and in a vet, able and impartial speech, in the course of which he examined the mea sure in all its various be flints and results, he appears to have united the minds of nearly the whole Cham ber in its favour. No Member attempted to cr , mbat so great an authority on the subject, and this branch of the Budget was at length . adopted almost una nimously. In the Sitting of the 4th, the Chamber proceeded to the discussion of that title of the Budget which relates to the dotation tb.the • Sinking Fund, a title Iwhich includes the proposed alienation of the woods of. the State. The debate . was long and animated, and ended in an adjournment till next day. The majority of speakers were against the alienation, but the weight of argument was all on the other side. 'Tfte KING continues still improving in his health. The, Duchess of BUSHY has been attacked by the measles, and is now the subject of daily Bulletins of . Health.—Fuuds;6ll. 50c. • FA 'Amu ra MARCO &—The Emma, CoußTYCT:fmtts Mes. sin'a iu sit days ; she spoke of this port. Is.t %tight, the Wilhaus, trona Wept.% all welt.—Wind•W. Foal - sawn I . it, MA•C H 7. Arrived the Salisbury packet, from London, for Eallitouth..*Ptit hack the Agricola, Testa, with loss of .sails, •alter Maung sS days its the Channel.—Sailed • the Hippocampi i I ASSILtt i for London; his Majesty's slaps CYRUS, for Cork; and it MAR 10 , oil a cruize.--Wand W.S.W, DZAL, MARCY 7—Arrived and sailed for the River, the Cornwall, from Ohne; I.ord llun i terford, from Caltut t a ; Prn cea Charlotte, from Demerara ; Cuntaattce; Jeffenon, from Ca. ' dis tor ; and Cynthia, Wicks, in 43 days from Trieste for Atuiterdass—the two latter remain. Comedown from the River and remain, the. Alcyon for the areal!. ; Union, for nvannah ; Princt.l Cf:atlotte, tot iSombay ; and Lively, (or Savannah GIAVI)EN7, 7.—.Artived the Java, 1i0.4ge,, from ,c a cu " s; Rose, tram Havre. Sailed the Sac. is, Myr. car, for Dernarate ; Willta,tt Pitt, Living, and Streatham, hale, for India • St. ' Pahl, Last, foe Danisk ; S e S c ield, !vas, toe Mo. *adore; LComeny, Plrobert, for Trieste; &Rasta, lockage', for tionaborgh; Ltllsa r IJowcn , fer'ilostrdam. CIiSEOM•HOUSII; MARCH 7. Scars swim as INWARDS—The Marini, uf zi neksea, !roam, from Ostend, aid llfintura, &Infield, from Venice and Trieste. 00TWARIMThe Garland; Forbes, fur Dubhn ; three, Druck ftir Maisie; Atalanta, Lilting, for Malays. and St. Petersham's; Thetis, Yarrow, for Metall.. ; Fortitude, Skylab,. i fz ei t= a t a a t a i til:l r Agenclrla9 ' ide rue th lrit . zs iAliget u , a G ay ii i it or t on fu t ,:l 4 :l , :hr e i da i dlun tida.. ; g ;. "'st vi tassu dzs i , 04. 1Lem berowilli tree. fur CAWS ; Anne, Maud, :for Modelle and tY, Vbsowit's; and the Nartaviabatt tad, Nlttattee, at Mideira and India I I