Star. — London, England, 1810-06-14 00:00:00

Ws Majesty's advisers, they continue effectively to possess those its dignity. He would ask-any man who would look securitka, which have been the boast of the British Government. back and take into his consideration all the contin and are essentially inherent in every free con s tituti on . '• flat we entreat his Majesty to be assured, that in recom- gencies attending the 'depreciation of money, &c. if mending these measures with all tht earnestaess which a convic- *950,000 at the present day bore any thing like a don that they are indispensable for the salvation of the country proportion to the £700,01X) which was the civil essta- Inspires, we never can lose sight of our obligation to support the blishment in the time of King 'William, or to the just prerogatives and useful splendour of the Crown; the ve nerable establishment of out Holy R e li g i on; an d t h e anc i ent and £BOO,OOO granted to George the Second ? Ministers essential Rights and Privileges of Parliatnent. In our firm reso- had no objection to an economical reform. If there lutlon to maintain these, under all circumstances, and with all were grievances which called fur such a reform, let our authority and power, we are well assured that we shall Rot the Noble Lord state them, and a practical remedy fail to receive the active concurrence and support of all ranks of sho uld be app li ed. He was however averse to a his Majesty's faithful people, convinced as they mu s t be that it is no less their Interest than their duty, faithfully to adhere ib those sweeping indefinite theory of reform. Whatever fundamental principles of our Government, which, assigning to might be said of the multiplied expences of the State, its various institutions rights peculiar to each, and necessary for he sincerely believed that there never was a rich and the preservation of all, secure, by their happy combination and prosperous country, the civil government of which harmony, to the Executive Power, sufficient strength, to the Legislature, its necessary independence, and to the whole tom- was conducted at an expence so comparatively small. =unity, the blessings of 2 well regulated freedom." —A great deal had been said about the economy of The Earl of LIVERPOOL commenced by ob- other States, and especially that of the United States 'serving the Noble Lord's speech had embraced a va- of America. Now he must be excused if he refused riety of topics, each of which would of itself have to admit that such economy did prevail in America. been sufficient for the consideration of one evening.— Thus it is with America :—she has not a population He did not blame his conduct in so bringing forward one-third that of Great Britain and Ireland, without the statements to which he alluded.; situated as he one 20th part of our trade, and with a revenue in that was, and at such a late period of the Session, it might deficient proportion, and yet her Civil List is very be perfectly natural for the Noble Lord, or indeed for little short of £BOO,OOO. The Noble Earl next any one else feeling as he did, so to do. He, how- touched upon the topic of Parliamentary Reform. ever, could not think that what he had advanced was He contended that the Representation which at this intended to be submitted as a plan for the adoption of moment prevailed was found to bear the test of time the House. He conceived it was rather intended by in its favour. He had heard a great many other the Noble Lord to pass for his own individual pro- modes pointed out, but he could not find any of test, as if all the opinions expressed by the Noble them that was not visionary and merely theoretic. Lord were well founded (and he trusted he should —When Mr. Burke himself talked of the Represen. prove that a great many of them were not), still he tatioa in its present state, he would not admit it a could not expect that the House would decide on representation by deputy, but a delegated deliberative questions of so much importance, without having body ; which evidently went to shew that the people some previous notice given on the subject. The opt- were never more equally represented. In fact there was nions of that Noble Lord, he, however, admitted at no scheme that he had as yet seen that, if put in execu all times and on all occasions had great weight, and tion, would not be productive of the most fatal effects were entitled to full consideration, and he should upon the Constitution, and a radical change in the therefore proceed to comment on them. He proposed whole frame of our civil and political rights. Much to speak of the subjects which had fallen under dis- had been said about the mode in which seats in the cussion, not in the order in which they had been tree- Commons were procured, but he appealed to Noble ted by the Noble Lord, but wishing to speak of those Lords and to the world, whether, if seats had not which were yet fresh in the memory of their Lord- beet so procured, they ever could have had the op ships, he should first advert to those topics touched portunity of knowing the splendid endowments, and upon in the latter part of the Noble Lord's speech. the transcendent abilities of such men as the first and He could not but express the most entire satisfaction second Mr. Pitt, Mr. Burke himself, the late Mr. at the sentiments expressed by his Lordship on one Windham, and many others ? This system of une. question which had of late much agitated the public qual-representation has had its practical advantages, mind—that concerning the privileges of Parliament. and he defied any person to shew an equal share of He admitted the full force of his opinion on that sub- advantages that could proceed from any other. In ject, and most perfectly Eagreed with him that it was short, he was perfectly convinced that if ever it was necessary for the good of the public that Parliament attempted to ground Reform upon speculative theory, should be in possession of the privileges to which they and not upon practical principles, there would be an had laid claims. They were necessary and essential end of all. When it was contended that numbers, in to the proper discharge of tin it functions, as nothing fact that population, and not property, was to become could be of more importance to the nation than that the test of representation, and the root from whence it their Representatives should be preserved from being was to spring, he feared that the attempt even to put intimidated by menace and by the dread of insult that theory into effect would, by the confusion, prove from a proper and conscientious discharge of their the impracticability of it. As to the concessions that duty. Of the evil effects of this the Noble Lord had the Government is called upon to make to the Ca given them several illustrations, but a most instrnc. tholics, he must for one of that Government, say, that tive example was furnished by the Revolution in those concessionswerenot soughtforfairly. The Noble France, of what might be expected from the delibera- Earl (Grey) contends that they ought to be granted tions of s u ch an assembly. The body.then formed, with conditions, without at the same time knowing and calling themselves 44 the Constituents of the Peo. whether the Catholics themselves would accept them ple," had been thus circumstanced ; the consequence *4l) those conditions. In truth, he was ready to was, being too much under the influence of the popu. say, that they had resolved not to accept concessions lace, though they boasted some men of virtue and of with any conditions. With this class then of the talent among them, 'every chance of success was King's subjects hecould not furtherintcrfere. Withre lost by the manner in which their deliberations were spect to the attainment of peace, he was, Itecould so conducted, through fear of becoming unpopular.— lemnly assure the House and the Public, as earnest for He perfectly agreed with the Noble Lord as to their it as any man living, provided it could be obtained right to the privileges they claimed. Not only had upon fair terms, and he believed that there was not a they been theirs from time immemorial, a pretty strong class of men in the kingdom who heard of this decla argument in their favour—not only had they been ration, that would not give him credit for sincerity. supported by the most illustrious of our patriots, ano- But he asked, how was this to be obtained ? Was it ;her pretty strong argument in their favour—not only by descending from the high ground on which we did it appear that our liberties had flourished and ex- stood, and meanly soliciting it ? Certainly not, but panded under therh, which was also a pretty strong the fact is, that this country is now in that state that argument in ;heir behalf, but they naturally grew out it has no option in the matter ; and therefore, so far of the deliberations of such an assembly, and were ne- from overtures from this country tending to a peace, he cessary to its very existence for any e ffi cient purposes. wasconvinced, in the present situation of the world, that • The trial by jury was not of itself sufficient to secure it would only retard the accomplishment of the object. the rights of the ,sobject. In the reign of Charles TI. It has been urged, said the Noble Earl, that the war has in that of Henry VIII and- at some of the worst pe- been unadvisedly carried on in Spain, because the Go riods of our history, trial by jury had been still pre- vernment of that country is not in a state which could served, though the subject -had been grievously op- warrant our support of them. Now, for his part, if a pressed. Stating this to their Lordships, he' was far, war only was to be carried on for an ally in proportion very far froth undervaluing trial by jury, but he as his Government approached to perfection, then contended that teal hyiury afforded ho adequate se- there must be an end either to all compacts or to all curity for the public without those privileges of Par. wars ; for who ever yet expected, on this side of eter- Lament. No laws, however wise and just—no jaris. nity, infallible perfection ? He would not venture to diction whatever could alone give sufficient security tit)! that Spain and Portugal would eventually sue. to the subject without a somethin g behind—or in fact ceed in the mighty struggle with their enemy ; but above them—without a constantly vigilant and con- this he would say, that they possessed the means, if , trouling Parliament. He was sort y that he could not 1 those means were rightly applied. His Lordship then agree with the ; her parts of the Noble Lord's speech dwelt on the policy of carrying on the war in Spain as he did with this. On the subject of Reform, he upon principles even of interest and selfish benefit, and could not hut express surprise that the Noble Lord's I contended, that if we had no-other inducement than sentiments should remain the same as they were 20 . our own interest and welfare, the war was a prudent years ago, seeing circumstances were so materially 1 and a politic one. From these points he adverted to changed within that period. That a timely and sa- ear financial system, and shoved from documents, - lutary reform 1)4 at all times a claim to approbation, which he read at the table, that our income has in. could not be denied. If the Noble Lord meant to i creased to an extent unparalleled in history since the say that the present Ministers systematically resisted , year 1806; that our navy has prospered beyond ex.' such a reform, the esperientie of their Lordships must 1 ample in that time 4 and that ever since the year 1808, refute the chary. They had uniformly manifested , our army, notwithstandiog all disasters, has increased , I disposition favourable to such a reform. Nos one ,in numbers no less than 27,000 effective men. He year, not one Session had elapsed without a remedy, proceedectfurther to thew the advantages that the po king apilied to some practical evil. It remedies had . litical world has gained in that time, by still saving not been attempted to be applied in same instances the peninsula from the grasp of France, and by trans where-consphtints were made, it wig l:ecause those planting the Monarchy of the House of Braganxa into things- that ware in such cases complained of as ! the southern hemisphere ; and concluded a very argu grievanc4 and evils, when examined were not consi. mentative and eloquent speech in giving the motion deied to be such. As ta the gentral theory of reform, for the Address his negative. so far was he from thinking that if the subject were 1 Earl STANHOPE expressed his surprise, particu. taken up - as proposed elsewhere, a reduction of the i larly at the latter part of the Speech of the Noble Se . public es,pences would take place ; that he did not he, , cretary, when he spoke of the glory and prosperity to sitate to predict that in such a case a great addition 1 which this country had arrived through his own bles. would be made to the public expenditure. It was sedadministration.—(4/aeek.)—He ridiculed the pri. true that the King's revenue bad been increased—it: vilcges claimed by the House of Commons, as absurd was true that offices were multiplied and sa l ar i es Reg . : and abominable. Upon the principle laid down, every • mented, both,: wished their Lo r d s hip s to l oo k back man in the nation might be liable to be deprived of to former periods, to periods at which every thing his liberty for commenting upon their proceedings. , was supposed to he so much better, and contrast the He instanced many Bills, such as the noted India present Civil List with that of other reigns. The Civil Bill, when Members of that House, and the whole List of William 111. was £700,000, and unregulated. body of the people, had condemned the measure, and That of Queen Anne and George T. £lOO,OOO, an d yet they would, under the modern definition of pri unregulate. George 11. had £BOO,OOO, and tmre- vileges, all have been liable to have. been cast into gulated. Tfreso s ums, if not pa id by the Hereditary prison. He agreed with the Noble Earl (grey) that Mates i mere to be made ,pp by the country. The Parliament should have power necessary to the di s - Cifil List at pees Nn amounts to €950,000,. and it was charge of its functions, but no more; and he wa s most to, be observed tha.* it 'was regulated irr all its parts. of all pleased with the words, co more. But he did Plaekstene had state.. l he revenue of the Crown to be not comprehend his Noble Friend when he said he a§ l qw af 4 oli o to b e , QT as it cquid be f to ut i lint4in would not meotion those powert. lie neat adverted - • S. to the genera! state of the representation, which, he maintained was conducive to assist a corrupt Minister. Said the Noble Earl, "There was oace a Borough monger applied to a Minister in former days, for the grant of a certain place. 0," says the Minister, " I ' am sorry, but the place is alre:.dy granted." " You will recollect," replied the Boroughmonger," we are seven." The Minister again observed, there had been great promises, and thby must be observed. " Well," rejoined the Boroughmonger, a you will recollect we are seven." And thus did he repeat his laconic elo quence, till the Minister granted his request, before he left the room. " I have heard," said Earl Stanhope, .4 a report, to-day, in the lobby, that the Ministers are all by the ears together ; they have been accusing each other of their misdeeds. Says one," You blockhead, you were the cause of the loss of Prussia." " What do you talk of Prussia?" replied the other," " you by your conduct in Denmark and Sweden, rendered Rus sia hostile to England." Another was accused of the disgraceful proceedings and the frail measures pur sued in regard to Spain and Portugal. " Do not talk of these failings," said be, " do you recollect who planned the Expedition to he Scheldt ?" At the same time another remarks " who was it that brought his Royal Highness into the scrape with his little darling ?" Suppose I did so," said the accused,' " was it not you that cried out No Popery !'—" (Laughing.)—This is the laaguage I am told they use ; they address each other with all the sincerity of St. Giles's, and all the politeness of Billingsgate.— (A laugh).—ln these times it is shameful they should be so much at variance, and I think ir would be bet ter for the King and better for the country they should all hang together." The Noble Earl con cluded by moving an amendment, expressing their high regard for the liberty of the press and the trial by Jury. Lord SUFFOLK supported the amendment. He entered into a discussion upon the conduct of Minis ters with respect to the way in which the war was carried on in Spain, and expressed his apprehensions that it was not likely to succeed, not, he thought, from any want of public spirit in the Spaniards, but from m the want of that which of all others induces men to stand forth in defence of their country—namely, Con. stitutional Liberty. Lord ERSKINE supported, with his wonted energy,the principle of constitutional freedom which the amendment of his Noble Friend (Lord Stanhope) proposed. He then entered into an argumentative and learned display of eloquence, to shew that the privi lege assumed by the House of Commons, to imprison for libel, was contrary to the known law of the land, and to Magna Charta. He was exceedingly sorry to differ with. the Noble Earl (Grey) who proposed the Address ; but he really found that it was quite impos sible for him, in the discharge of his duty, and in the conscientious discharge of it, to admit that the House of Commons had by law the right or power which they thus assumed. He asked Noble Lords if they forgot the blood which their forefathers had shed to maintain their civil liberties, and to assert their rights, and save them from succeeding tyrants ? If they had not, then, he asked them, how they could countenance the mon strous attack which the Commons had made upon the civil rights of their fellow-subjects ? That reform in the abuses of the State was necessary, no one would doubt ; that Reform in the Commons House of Par liament was much more necessary, there was no one but would allow, who was not interested, to be true. It is the want of that Reform which creates this very self-same, self-assumed power, lately exercised, for a pure Representation of the people never would recognize such hostile principles. His Lordship, in a very animated manner, replied to several parts of the observations that fell from a Noble Earl (Liver. pool) respecting the unequal state of the people's Re presentation, and denied that it was such as afforded fair opportunitiei for splendid talents to show forth. That he thought much more likely to be produced by the people having the opportunity of making their choice, than by an individual choosing himself for a seat, by means of his money, for that was no longer secret. The House of Commons would be more likely to have a greater assemblage of genius by the people sending thither the men of their choice, than by the wealthy individual purchasing his admission there. The one was likely to represent his genius, the other his guineas. He thought it was neither po. litic or wise to hold, or to affect to hold, the opinion of the people in contempt. For his part, he hardly knew of any State, in ancient or modern times, which made that a principle, but which fell into decay and ruin. The Noble and Learned Lord supported the Amendment, but said that there was a great part of the Address that had his support. The LORD CHANCELLOR supported the pri vileges of Parliament, and he opposed the motion of the Noble Earl, because it asserted what his Lordship had denied night after night. The Noble and Learned Lord had stated, that the freedom of the subect was supported at all times by Trial by Jury and Freedom of the Press. He would ask, what was the general practice of the Courts ? In the Court in which he had presided, in cases where trial by Jury did not ap. ply, be had ordered the party to attend, and where a , contempt had appeared, he bad committed. The Noble and Learned Lord had dose the same, and hedges had possessed the power of committing fot contempt. He put it to their Lordships, whether the commitment for contempt was not as much the lax terra, as Trial by Jury ? Every Court must have (said his Lordship) a summary jurisdiction to punish for contempt, without calling in Trial by Jury. With' respect to this power vested in Parliament, it was in. trusted to the House of Commons under a responsi ' bility. If they took away that responsibility from the Constituted Authorities, they had no security for , the due execution of this power. How far were questions, which concerned the House of Commons, to go before a Jury ? Were the Commons, in case of contempt to say, 'c we will give credit to persons, who speak to us without doors, and that we will at. tend to some, and not to others ?" His Lordship could not allow that any restraint ought to be put on the exercise of Parliamentary peivilege. He consi dered the privileges of the House of Commons to be the privileges of the Peers. They had been given, not for the advantage of Members of Parliament, but for the safety of the people; therefore it was too much to say the constituent Power should not have the power of committing for contempt in common with other. Courts. With respect. to Reform, his Lordship was convinced that there never had been a milder or better Constitution in the world. He had examined the effects of it s and he did not belie ve it (Auld h. improved by any innovation. calculated to hazard it r advantages we at present enjoyed. His Lords!.;; concluded by opposing the motion and amendremt." The Duke of NO FOLK supported tile arg u . ments of Lord Stanhope, and intimated his intentft to vote for the amendment. Lord SIDMOUTH concurred with his Hom e spec Friend 'on the question of the privileges and r i ghts , Parliament. He thought the other H ouse was debted to his Noble Friend for the attent i on he h i d paid the subject, in bringing it unde r t h e colli d e:. tion of honourable and enlightened mind s . Th e send. ing out expeditions, which had been the su bj ect of ti. Earl's observations, called for his di sapprob ; tion. Ministers, had not applied their expe di t i ons • safe and advantageous purposes. With re tto til e continuation of the war, and the economy which wai necessary, it was his Lordship's opinion that nothj but the principles of economy could avert the eviG proceeding from the contest. The War Taxes, and the surplus of the Concolidatel Fund, were our onlr dependence ; and if economy was not strictly adhered to, our resources would soon prove inadequate. H e concurred with his Noble Friend on the subject of the campaign in Spain. The Expedition under Sir johp Moore had been conducted on a mistaken view; but the employment of a large force under Sir A. Welles ley had promised considerable advantages. The Noble Viscount could not perceive that any hope of success had been held out to the Catholics. Ile would not admit that Catholic emancipation bad received the slightest encouragement from Ministers. With respect to Reform, lie had seen the country in the possession of civil liberty, that had never before fallen to the lot of any nation, and he could not, therefore, con sent to throw down any part of the fabric, without being convinced that a sure advantage would be derived from the innovation.' The Noble Viscount concluded by stating, that he could not, under all the conside• rations which pressed upon him, give his support to the motion for the amendment. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he concurred in many points with his Noble Friend who had me. ved the Address. He thought that the Court of Par. liament was more entitled to the power of committing for contempt than any other Court. If the Members of the other House did not exercise that power for the benefit of the people, they might be rejected after the dissolution of Parliament. The Noble Marquis then condemned the policy of the Spanish campaign. Mi. nisters had made a display to chew the great increase of exports and imports by the operation of the Orders in Council ; but it had been proved, that it was only in proportion as that enormous system, the Orders in Council, had been relaxed, that the exports and im ports had increased. There was one point mentioned by his Noble Friend, which the Noble Secretary of State had left unnoticed. He alluded to the paper currency. It was not known, that in 1809, a greater addition had been made to the currency of thecountry than had ever occurred in any other country within the same time. The currency, from a variety of dr. cumstances, had experienced a diminution, which operated on the laborious cri:s a es t of the con. munity with great severity. It had an effect on the poor houses, by swelling the list of paupers ; for there were not many labouring men with three children that were not in the poor house. This was a subject wee thy the attention of Government. So far from its being an unimportant document, it was of the great. est consequence, and it demanded immediate consi deration. He hoped the House, amidst the present awful state of affairs, would take some advice on the great topics which formed the combined classes of danger and calamity, and come to a determination to discharge its duty with constitutional integrity. The Noble Marquis was convinced of the necessity for Re form, and he concluded by supporting the Address. Lord BUCKINGHAMSHIRE shortly adverted to a variety of the topics introduced into the de bate, and declared his intention of resisting the mo tion, on the ground of its acquiescing in the Catholic claims. As to Parliamentary Refoi m, no good could result from it, and it would only tend to embarrass the business of Government. Lord SPENCER eeclared his full concurrence in all the sentiments of his Noble Friend (Lord Grey), and thought the country under great obligations to him, for having brought forward the various subjects before unheard in his resolution of that night. lie expressed himself very doubtful of the good efects of what was called a radical Reform, which in his mind would risk a great deal, without the certainty of ob taining any adequate advantages. But as to econo mical reform, he conceived that was a subject which demanded the closest and most unrcmitted attention of Parliament. On the other great topic, of the pri vileges of the House of Commons, he thought that they were absolutely essential to the existence of Pat. liament ; they had been exercised in the best times of the Constitution, and were quite necessary to its de fence and protection. Lord DARNLEY supported the Address. It was not wonderful that the people were loudly calling for a Reform in Parliament, when a traffic in seats was acknowledged to exist What would their Lordships think, if peerages were a saleable commodity ? Nei' they was it surprising that the people shoved distrust of that House of Commons, which defended and praised.theexpedition to Walcheren. Such conduct was equal to a thousand arguments in favour of Reform. Lair GREY made a short general reply. The privileges of Parliament, as exercised in the best times of the Constitution, he conceived to be essen tial to the independence Parliament. fie had the conduct of his Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Erskine) against the opinion he now professed. For his Noble Friend, when Lord Chancellor, did not hesitate to commit a person to the Fleet for a con tempt of Court; and should the House of Commons, daily deliberating on the great affairs of the 'wilt', by which the minds of men were apt to be greatly agitated, be less protected in the freedom of their de liberation than the Court of Chancery, perhaps in di, case of a lunatic ? The question was then pot on Earl Stanhope's Ameniimen • which was negatived, with the dissentient voices of Ike Duke 0! Norfolk, Earl Stanhope, awl Lord Erskine, who immediately !en the House. A division then took place on Lord GRIT's Resolution, %%Inca was negatived, the numbers being as follow: — Non-contents -Peers present 71—rrosies 63 Total 134 Contents—reers present 43—Proxies 119—Tutal- 72,3 - . LO DON : Printed and publidted by LEVEL KENT, of Car terbtary-Place, Lambeth, at the braaJOrricc No. 1, l art? greet. Inset. ratatiased alio it che ST mi-Ovraci,Tipsyk the preservation of all, secure, by their happy harmony, to the Executive Power, sufficient Legislature, its necessary independence, and to inanity, the blessings of I well reguiated free& The Earl of LIVERPOOL comn 'serving the Noble Lord's speech had e riety of topics, each of which would . been sufficient for the consideration ofl He did not blame his conduct in so br the statements to which he alluded.; was, and at such a late period of the Sc be perfectly natural for the Noble Lor any one else feeling as he did, so to d ever, could not think that what he had intended to be submitted as a plan for the House. He conceived it was rash the Noble Lord to pass for his own i test, as if all the opinions expressed Lord were well founded (and he tru prove that a great many of them wee could not expect that the House we questions of so much importance, v some previous notice given on the subj nions of that Noble Lord, he, howevc all times and on all occasions had gre were entitled to full consideration, therefore proceed to comment on them to speak of the subjects which had fa cussion, not in the order in which they ted by the Noble Lord, but wishing to which were yet fresh in the memory ships, he should first advert to those upon in the latter part of the Noble : He could not but express the most en at the sentiments expressed by his L question which had of late much agiti, mind—that concerning the privileges He admitted the full force of his opini ject, and most perfectly [agreed with] necessary for the good of the public t' should be in possession of the privilege had laid claims. They were necessar to the proper discharge of the it functi could be of more importance to thee their Representatives should be preser intimidated by menace and by the (1 from a proper and conscientious disc duty. Of the evil effects of this the I' given them several illustrations, but tive example was furnished by the Vrance, of what might be expected frc tions of such an assembly. The bod and calling themselves " the Constitt ple," had been thus circumstanced ; was, being too much under the influei lace, though they boasted some men talent among them, 'every chance lost by the manner in which their del ,q)nducted, through fear of becomini He perfectly agreed with the Noble I right to the privileges they claimed. they been theirs from time immemorial argument in their favour—not only supported by the most illustrious of o ;her pretty strong argument in their fa did it appear that our liberties had flo paraded ender then), which was also argument in ;heir behalf, but they nat of the deliberations of such an assemb cessary to its very existence for any efl The trial by jutry was not of itself suf the rights of the,sobject. In the reig in that of Henry VIII and- at some i riods of our history, trial by jury ha( served, though the subject -had beer pressed. Stating this to their Lordsh very far froth undervaluing trial b contended that teal bylury afforded t curity for the public without those pt Lament. No laws, however wise and diction whatever could alone give suf to the subject without a something be) above thern—without a constantly vii trouling Parliament. He was sorry t} agree with the ; her parts of the Nobli as he did with this. On the subject could not but express surprise that th sentiments should remain the same a years ago, seeing circumstances were changed within that period. Tint a lutery reform 4,4 at all times e claim could not be denied. If the Noble say that the present Ministers system such ale Corm, the experienoe of their : refute the charge. They had unifor a disposition favourable to such a ref year, not one Session had elapsed wit ' being applied to some practical evil. 1 not been , attempted to be applied in where-coutletints were made, it wis things.that wire in such cases cor grievaxix4 and evils, when examined deied to be such. As to the gentral th so far was he from thinking that if tl taken up-as proposed elsewhere, are _public es,pences would take place ; the sitate to predict that in such a case a would be made to the public expen true that the King's revenue had bee was true that offices were multiplied a • mented, but hp wished their Lordshi; to former periods, to periods at whi 'was supposed to he so much better, a present Civil List with that of other re List of William was £700,000, a That of Queen Anne and George I. . unregulatet. George 11. had &SOO, gulated. Th'eso sums, if not paid by Mates p Were to !)e made PP by the Ci v il List a; pees Nu amounts to £950 Ito, be observed the' it was regulate( plackstene had state.. 1 he revenue of alqw ;9 it 044 to be, 91 as it C9/41 uld h : ' and tl , t )rdstip tueLt. ar; u . tenu ost Noble 'gins of I was he h a d Le se n d, tofthe vrob a • tions t o t to the ich Ira; nothi ni he evi lj es, and ar °ni t adhered I ;e. H e t of th e iir Joh n w ; but e Noble