Star. — London, England, 1822-02-21 00:00:00

odoptieg the proposed plan for the reform of the I3urghs, if the necessity for it existed—and he now contended that such necessity did exist. The Learned Lord had asked if chartered rights were to be de stroyed ? but they were not now chartered rights, for those had been altered by the Convention of Burghs, a:ld repeatedly altered by the Crown. Therefore he would advise them to alter that which had been abused, not only by causes already stated, but by the internal abuses of Magistrates. There was nothing, then, of the acciont Burghs remaining; the Bttrgesses had no con troul whatever over the men who exercised power in them. There was no purity now in the Scotch Burgh; there was nothing hut injustice; hypocrisy, and fraud. The evils were of such a nature, and of such mag nitude, that the House was bound to take the subject into consideration. Ile had no view in proposing this lan hot that of removing the evils he bad stated, and •ofestablishingsome dependence and connection between the governors and the governed; nor was he an ad vocate for any weeping removal of persons from their offices, but only wished to see the mode of election properly regulated. He assured the House, that in his statements he had omitted ten times as much as he had stated. He concluded by moving, 44 that the 'House do resolve into a Committee, to consider the state of the Royal Burghs of Scotland." The LORD ADVOCATE of SCOTLAND said expected that the Noble Lord would have brought to:ward a specific remedy for the evils he had stated, or that he would have waited until he saw the Bill, which he (the Lord Advocate) had given notice of introducing—a Bill which he was confident would accomplish all the objects that could be wished, with out destroying the chartered rights, or altering the present constitution of the Scotch Burghs. Such an attea!pt would reither be more nor less than to bring al , out that was called a Parliamentary Reform— (Hear, kear).—lf such an attempt was made, let it be made openly at once, without an indirect mode, suc h as was now proposed. His plan would have for its object a more regular administration of the finances of the Burghs. There were great abuses in many other Burghs in Scotland, which were not Royal Burghs, which sent no Representatives to that Ilouse; and why was no inquiry tried to be made into their constitution? The reason was obvious; the present Was an attempt to bring about a Reform in Parlia ment. When the Honourable Member for Aberdeen was elected, he had only two to vote for him, and he was returned by his own casting voice —(Laughter). Then why did not that Hon. Member propose a I:2l‘rm in that Burgh ? He denied that there were instances of corruption as the Noble Lord had s:.aed. There might sometimes have been an excess ,f expenditure; but the wisdom of such expenditure druid not be judged of by figures, and many ex- Fnses sse:e applied to beneficial purposes. The ex penses of Aberdeen, for instance, were most usefully incurred in'making very great and important im provements in the harbour of that town. Great ex penses were also incurred by the City of Edinburgh, but (they contributed greatly to the improvement and convenience of that capital. It would be impossible for the House to form a judgment from the immense volume laid before it. because that Report comprised only the state of four Burghs. Indeed it would have been useless to go into the examination of any other towns; and the grievances found to exist wete attri buted solely to a want of proper checks over the ex penditure of the Burghs, which arose from circum stances that had occurred since the Union with Scot land ; the old Court of Exchequer not having suffi cient power to examine into and controul such ex penses. By the Bill then which he should introduce, he meant to propose that there should be an appeal, in all cases of this kind to the Court of Exchequer. There was one Burgh (that of Stirling) where such a system of improvement existed, as was proposed by the Noble Lord, and its affairs were not conducted one jot better than those of the other Burghs. The remedies which he should propose ought first to be tried, before any attempt was made to alter the Con stitution of the Burghs. That remedy ought to be tried before any hazardous experiment were at tempted ; or before any of the Articles of the Union v..ere altered. If the House were to agree to the motion, and follow it up in the way proposed, i: would be impossible to apply a general remedy, because every Burgh in Scotland was constituted in a manner different from another, and no such gene ral remedy could apply without violating the char tered rights of the whole. Mr. HUME said, he rose to express his opinion on the subject, as well as to correct some of the mis statements of the Learned Lord. He stated that there was no corruption ; but had not the House the in stance of Inverary ? Doubtless, others existed. The Hon. Member proceeded to censure the conduct of the Committee of last year, for not permitting what in courtesy and practice was always done ; the Noble Lord was not allowed to draw up the Report. The Noble Lord was in Scotland for the purpose of exer ci-ing his elective franchise, and though the Session was not expected to terminate in less than six weeks, the Report could not wait so long. It was, he under stood, the joint production of the Noble Lord (Bin ning) and the Learned Lord Advocate. He (Mr. Hume) would venture to say, that there were no other seven Members of that House who would have treated the Noble Lord as the Members of the Committee had done. When in that Committee the question was put for reading the Report, paragraph by paragraph, he (Mr. Hume) had made an amendment, to give the Noble Lord an opportunity of framing the Report.— He put it to any man in the House to my whether that was not a lair proposition ? but on the division there appealed—Ayes, seven—Noes, one. Now it was on the Report of this Committee that the Learned Lord 'wished the House to rely ; but so far from the House looking to that Report, let them look to the three preceding . Reports, and they would fic.d that the alle gations o f all the Petitions were nearly the same, and all concurred in praying some modification of the system of self-election. He thought Isis Noble Friend was quite right in the course which be was pursuing, because he might be assured that the Committee had no intention to act on those Petitions. The Report of a Committee should be considered by the House as the opinion of a set of Gentlemen who were all alone mind. It had been said that this was a motion for Reform : lie (Mr. Hume) thought that it was a mean of letting the Burgesses into a share of the Representst tion,and he thought they ought to have it—(Hear). — He wished the Learned Lord would consider and !rant something; give them but a beginning, awl; M }~`.'' ~..r,. .•• , . ore fie Wit% that theywonid makepregfets—(Hear). not to c e tera - big most hearty thanks to Ibe kslbble, Re asked fbt a littli e Intense he woull:abt•be repte. Lord (14. Hamilton) for his.. renovating mid: highly seated as taking a imp end because itwosild decide in--beraitiugbtertions in this service, . ~ the question whether dale was ever to be a tons , Mr. t.FORBSS then addressed the . . mencement of Reform s or whether his Majesty's Mi- said that th e embarrassments of .the Bur . . .Ab er, nisters would risk the peace of the country by an abs dam had been very much eta Berated. e"A is solute refusal? He contended that, though not gii • trates had effected very large reductions hi the debt, zetted, the town of Aberdeen was actually insolvent; which he doubted not they would soon be able to pay he did not blame the individuals, but the system ;.-- off, with Ile per cent. interest. He must beg to coo under that system it. was impossible the manners tradict one part of the statement of an Honourable could be honest men. Such was the purport of the Member (Mr. Hume), who had said that if all the Minute of the CoUncil of Aberdeen when they re. revenues of the Burgh of Aberdeen were to be signed ten years ago; yet the Ministers reinstated be mortgaged, they Would brinsu ffi cient to defray its them, reinstated the very men who had got t h e Burgh debts. House would not fail to observe with in debt several hundred thousand pounds—but, be it pleasure, by the speech which they had just heard observed, the management of the funds was still in delivered by a Noble Lord, that arrangements had the hands of trustees. " But,* said the Learned Lord, been adopted by the Maoistrates which reflected upon . " this expenditure is for great improvements; look them, in his opinion, die highest credit. Indeed, the at the harbour of Aberdeen l" But the Learned Lord improvements which had been effected in Aberdeen forgot that the harbour was under a separate trust.— within the last twenty or thirty years were truly sur- If this expenditure had been for real improvements, he prising ; and such as no - person, at that distance of (Mr. Hume) could almost have forgiven it : but all time, would have ventured to predict. The manufac that had been done was to run out a quay, which timers were active, and trade in a most flourishing con every day was tumbling down, and in the opinion of dition. He then, adverting to the conduct of the Burgh many naval men would one day or other totally de. Magi traces, vindicated them from a charge which had :troy the harbour. These were the improvements for been most unfairly thrown out against them, of having which all the charitable funds had bten squandered, applied the public money in an improvident manner. and an immense debt incurred. He would admit, that —lt might not be improper to mention, that he had if the whole of the lands belonging to the city were lately received a letter from one of those respectable sold, there would be means sufficient to pay the debt. individuals, informing him that the Hon. Member for But was that any season why these self•elected per- 'Montrose (Mr. Hume) had himself declared to them, sons should have squandered what the Kings of that he never meant to insinuate anything against Scotland had endowed the Burghs with for ever? their honour--(Hear). After such a declaration, it was He did not wonder that his Majesty's Ministers sup- somewhat singular that the Hon. Gentleman should, ported the Magistrates of Aberdeen, for they had in that House, hazard aspersions that did reflect upon followed their example of extravagance; indeed, the those Magistrates. In allusion to one part of the inhabitants of Aberdeen had rather the advantage, Hon. Gentleman's speech, about the number of lode. for if the whole fee simple of England were sold, he pendentvotes, he (Mr. Forbes) would be glad to know did not believe it would liquidate the debt which the what chance the Hon. Gentleman would conceive he Ministers had incurred. So that here wits an exem- had of being returned, if one vote, in the Borough of plification of the old adage, " Birds of a feather flock Brechin for instance, were doubtful for the space of together!" The Magistrates of Aberdeen would re• twenty-tour hours only ? He believed that the Hon. ceive good support from his Majesty's Ministers; Gen leman would conceive his election to be very but he exhorted the House to restore to the Burgesses much a matter of question. He begged, in conclusion, those rights of which they were possessed till the year to say that he (Mr. Forbes) should always be ready 1659. One of the grievances in the Petition of Right in that House to take the part of any set of men, who, in William and Mary's reign was, that the abdicated in their absence, were, as he conceived, unjustly and Sovereign had subverted the rights of the Royal unfairly treated—(Hear). Burghs. The Willie in Scotland was a judicial officer, Mr. HUME, in explanation, said, his Hoiiourable besides having the management of the funds, and it Friend had entirely misunderstood him, if he sup was essential that they should possess the confi- posed that he had accused the Magistrates in question dente and respect of the people. The want of that of peculation. On the contrary, he alluded only to feeling caused the present Magistuacy to be re- what they declared to be the nature of the existing garded in Scotland as a distinct set of persons.— system, under which, they said, it was almost impos- If the people of Scotland had any influence at elec. sible for a man to act honestly. Now he (Mr. Hume) tions, he would not say that all, but certainly a great observed, that, on their own shewing, it was to be in number of the Members from thence, would be on ferred that they must be knaves !--(A laugh, and cries his side of the House. The Honourable Baronet (Sir rlf " Spoke, spoke !") George Clerk) would not laugh if the elective Fran- Sir RONALD FERGUSSON conceived that the chile were on a broader basis in the county which he Hon. Gentleman who spoke last but one (Mr. Forbes) represented—(A laugh).—He (Mr. Hume) was an had very unjustly characterised the speech of his example of what the people would do—(Laughter).— Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume), who had never said that It was, no doubt, an ominous sound in the ear of his the Burgh of Aberdeen was bankrupt, but who con- Majesty's Ministers. For twenty-five years, his self- tended that it was so far bankrupt as to have given elected predecessor had backed them, and had got up its property to trustees. The Noble Lord (Bin some small things for himself; but no sooner had ning) had said, in answer to the speech of his Noble his Majesty's Ministers given power to the people of Friend (Lord A. Hamilton), " Wait, Gentlemen, for Montrose to elect their o. n Magistrate. (he thanked n %Notes sake, for the Bill of the Lord Advocate; see them), than he was returned, and there he wasl—(A what that will do." He (Sir It. Fergusson), for one. laugh).—The Learned Lord had mistaken: there were could not wait, and he would tell the House wily— five voters, and three had voted for him (Mr. Mime). because that Noble and Learned Lord seemed ro pro- The Honourable Member concluded by declaring, pose to take no notice of the greatest evil complained that as this was a step towards moderate Reform, and of, namely, self-election--(Hear, hear). Unless they would give the people of Scotland a share in the Re- did away with that, the House would do nothing. presentation, it should have his support. The Noble Lord was so horrified at the mere sound Lord BINNING congratulated the House on the of " Reform," that he exclaimed, " Good GOD ! how admission of the Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. can people talk of Reform in those days, and over- Hume), he could not call him the Member for Aber. throw the Constitution"—by giving something like a deers,—(Loird laug,hter)—that this motion, if granted, li tt l e representat i on to t h e S cotc h Burghs—(A laugh). mast necessarily lead to a Parliamentary Reform of Two Noble Lords on the other side of the House had the state of Representation in Scotland—(Hear).— lately expressed their great admiration of old parch- On all previous occasions they had been told that ments and old charte. s ; if they were so fond of these municipal regulations for contreuling the corporate old documents, he wished they would look a little to expenditure were alone sought. but that no political the old declaration, made by former Members of Par reform was intended. The Hon. Member, however, liament (Cheers), who had protested that they felt it to disdained equivocation, and manfully avowed that be their duty to listen to the complaints of the people. Parliamentary Reform in Scotland, which he had If, instead of searching into old parchments and greatly at heart, was the effect which he anticipated charters, those Noble Lords would attentively exa from the present motion, if it succeeded—(Hear, mine the journals of the House, he thought they hear).—Then he (Lord Binning) appealed to all those would employ their time much better. Last Session who thought with him that the adoption of such a there were some fifty Petitions presented for a Reform principle would open a door to what they feared in the Representation of the Scotch Burghs, and only must eventually subvert the Constitution, to resi t at one against it ; only one, setting forth that the present the outset such a proposition as this. The Hon. Mem- abuses formed the best of all possible systems. It was ber was of opinion, that the constitution of these proper to be known, and lie believed he was correct Burghs was the cause of the evil ; then why not wait in stating, that that one Petition was signed by the until his Learned Friend's (the Lord Advocate's) butler, gardener, and coachman of one of the Ma- Bill was prepared, to see if local abuses were not gistrates under whose auspices the Petition was brought guarded against? The praposition of annual popu- forward—( Hear). lar elections could certainly do little either to pre- Mr. MABERLEY conceived that a fair statement vent a waste of the public money, or secure a due had not been made to the House of the affairs of the administration of justice, while it would violate the Burgh of Aberdeen. They were not bankrupts,though chartered borough rights, and abdicate the provisions they had been considerably embarrassed. He had of the Act of Union. The Noble Lord (inning ) reason to know that the Burgh was once nearly ap then reviewed the scale of expenditure alluded to .? in proaching to bankruptcy ; but that, by good manage- Aberdeen and Edinburgh , and while he admitted the propriety o f a strict controul over the corporation meat, its affairs had been re-established . He certainly purse, he yet begged to point out that the expendi- considered that, of the Burgesses of the Scotch Burghs, cure complained of had been incurred in local im- 99 out of 100 were in favour of Reform — (Hear). provements, and in making Edinburgh one of t he . Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON, in reply, con finest cities in Europe. He entreated the House to : end ed , tha t by .receiving the . Report the House had, in effect, admitt ed mark their sense of this fi rst attempt to introduce the allegations of the Petitioners Parliamentary Reform into Scotland—(Hear). to be true; and he was naturally induced to suppose Mr. KENNEDY strongly urged the necessity of they would either devise some remedy for the alleged evils, or grant a Committee to inquire into the best adopting the present motion, to prevent tlie continu means to be adopted for their removal : but they had since of the just complaints of the peop l e o f Scot l an d, done neither the one thing nor the other. What he and particularly against some of their own Member s, . now asked was, not that they should pledge them- The Noble Lord's argument was curious—that be . cause a measure might ultimately ten d to a Parlia- selves to any specific measures of relief; but that, having admitted the truth of the facts stated by the memory Reform, no step shoul d be ta ke n fi to rentedy Petitioners, they would grant them a Committee for a specific and intolerable grievance. l e admitted h the purpose of considering their case. There was a that some of the smallest hit the Serge i . Borou ghs were hardly in a state to admit the prescribed re lief : . s sort of objection a hich the Noble and Learned Lord had made to his (Lord A. Hamilton's) proceeding : but were not the larger ones—Edinburgh, for in; he said that there were other Burghs, besides the stance, which had a population of 120,000 persons Royal Burghs, in Scotland, where the same evils He apprehended that it was by no means an . unusual existed, but which %sere not included in his (Lord A. course, even in cases where the Reports were qutteas , Hamilton's) proposed measure. If' that Noble Lord voluminous as that which was now on the table , . fo r would institute an inquiry into their case, and bring the Member from whom the subject under Houseconsiders-1 I forward only one-half of the grievances -which had tion had first emanated, to move that the ' been stated in the case of the Royal Burghs, he (Lord should resolve itself into a Committee upon su L c i h d it t e , A. Hamilton) would very readily render him his as contendport. It was a little too much, for the Noble sistance; but really, when, last Session, he undertoOk that the Noble and Learned Lord's 13111, r and o to bring this subje ct forward, he did think lie had none other, ought to be the ii.easure for the House to adopt. In sitting down, it was impossible for him, undertaken a great deal end did the Noble Lord i it was a slight labour ?) in taking in hand and those Hon. Gentlemen who thought with him. 1 thisk ..! , I '"PPIPIP T IF7F "7, - ; the sitrpilz Troiitittughl( Rear; Ater).• Be was induced to mention this matter, because ke had read a Somewhat siMilar kind of charge in • Certain newspaper cared the iieste66—(lkar,thetil•—• and which, therefore, though it might loot perhaps Lire of iginated. immediately with he N. hie and Learned Lard himself.i( Hear, hear)—Might passibly . have been the pi oduction of some co-partnership— (Hear, hearj—in that concerns Be that as it might, the observations in question were altogether ura ppli. cable to the matter mow beforethe /louses The Noble Lord, after a variety of other observations, proceeded to vindicate his c.nduet iii the Committee of last Session ) and :o declare that he should cet candy take the sense of the House upon his motion; he should ascertain whether they were disposed, not to adopt any specific plan, but to go into a Committee, where the matter might be fully and properly discussed I or whether they would wait for the undefined, and apparently most incomplete measure promised by the Lord Advocate? The gallery was then cleared for a division. On the return of strangers ) the numbers were found to be, For the Motion 46 I Against it tH Majority against it. 35. IRISH TITHES. Mr. GOULBURN requested that the Hon. Member IV! Aberdeen would, as a matter of convenience to Ministers, post• pone the motion relative to the Irish Tithe System, of which he had given notice for Tuesday next, until some subsequent day. Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that several Gentlemen who intended to take a part In the discussion which WAS expected to take place upon the motion which had been alluded to, might 'be compelled to leave town after the Ist or DI .rch I and be watt therefore desimus that the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) would not consent to postpone bit motion beyond that day. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY hoped, that as Friday wasa Supply day, the Hon. Member would fix his mallets for Thursday, the 28th inst. Mr. HUME said, that bethought it was impossible to bring his motion before the House on Thursday as two motions, each of which would occupy a considerable time, were already fixed for that day. The motions he alluded to were that of the Lord Advocate, upon the same subject which had.thet evening occu. pled the attention of the House; and that of Mr. Hemet, refs ' tive to the circumstances which attended the conducting of the funeral of her late Majesty. Under these circum,tances, he wished Ministers would make it convenient to meet his motion upon the day for which it stood hied.—The motion therefore stands for Tuesday next. _ ORDNANCE EsTIMATES6 Mr. WARD give notice, that he would bring the Ordnance Estimates under the consideration of the House on Monday, the 11th of March.---Adjourned at a Quartet before Twelve. MINORITY ON LORD ARCHIBALD HAMILTON'S MOTION. Abercromby, Tin. J. Guise, Sir W. O'Callaghan, Ce.lonei Barrett, S. B. M. ' Heathcute, .1. G. Price, R. Bury, Viscount Heron, Sir IL Rice, T. S. Brougham, H. Honywood, W. P. Robarts, A. W. Chaloner, tobert Hutchinson,Hn.C.H.Robinson ! Sit G. Chamberlayne, W. Hume, Joseph hearten, J. . : Claughton, 1. James, William Smith, William . Cteevey, T. Johnson, Colonel Webb, Colona • DeCrespigny, Sir W. Lambton, J. G. Williams, WiJibni Davies, Colonel Langton, J. H. Wilson, Sir Robert Denison, W. J. Lockhart, W. R. Wood, Alderman Denman, Thomas Maberley, John Wyvill, Dundas, T. H. Maberley; —dun. Ellice, Edward Maxwell, J. librington, Lord 31onek, J. B. TELLERS. Ferguson, Sir R. Newman, It. W. Hamilton, Lord A. Fitzgerald, Lord W. Nortuanby,Viscount Kennedy, T. F. PARLIAMENT AR Y PAPERS. It appears, by a Return made to the House of Com mons, that on the 12th February, 1822. the Mink of England had the following Bank Notes and Bank Post Bills in circulation: Bank Notes of £5 and upwards X15,784,7/0 Bank PAst Bills - - - - 1,679.120 Bank Notes under £5 - - 1,458,540 _ Total it 8,9g2,430 In June, 1821, the Total was 1:20,401,600, being a million and a half of paper money more in circula tion than at pies.nt. ESTIMATE of the PUBLIC INCOME and EXPEND!. TURE of the YEAR 1822, exclusive of SUMS to be Issued for the REDEMPTION of DEBT.—Ordered by the House of Commons to be Printed, 15th February, 1822. Actual Income for 1821 - - - £55,297,592 Add—Saving to the Customs by the transfer of the Coast Blockade to the Navy £BO,OOO Saving in the Revenue and other De partments by Deductions from Of &es, and for Superannuations,&c. 150,000--. 230,000 Deduct—By Repeal of the Horse Tax French Indemnity, less in 1882 tkan in 1821 - - - 300,000 Monies repaid for Public Works In 1841 - - - - 219,000. 994,000 56,227,.599 480,000 Deduct Expenditure, including Extraordinary Expenditure for Ireland - - - £55,228,592 49,968,46 Surplus - - ‘5,2603,946 Charge upon the Consolidated Fund, exclusive of the Sinking Fund. In respect of the Dividends and Ma nagement of the Unredeemed Funded Debt - - - £29,609,000 Other Permanent Charges - 2,041,000—X31,680,006 Interest on Exchequer Bills (including Exchequer Bills on Consolidated Fund, and an Arrear of • 1,509,000 £200,000 to the Bank) - - - Army, exclusive of the Extraordinary Aid re. quired in Ireland, and the Expense of Recruit ing and Clothing for the Regiments serving in India ..... Navy Ordnance 7,748,346 5,500,000 1,200,000 3liscellaneons - - Greenwich Hospital . 1,700,000 520,000 - 49,618,346 350,000 Total Expenditure, provided no Extra Ex• pence tor Ireland were necessary Add—Eatiniated Extra Expenditure in Ireland HAZARD and Co. grateful for the increase of pub lic patronage bestowed on them, and for the preference given to their old established (Aces (which they in some measure attri bute to their great success in selling Capital Prizes), respectfully . . request the attention of their Friends to a bn Scheme of the present Lottery, which begins It contains Five Prises of £20,000, Five £5OO, 4300, Ste. ice. and Not Two Blanks Prizes Sterling Money—No Classes—r its own Fate—First-drawn Prize will UASAILD and C. Sold in Shires ia th e ye, 'arPrize of IMOD% and 16,497 a Pribe and Co.'s CMlless, Royal Exchange-Gate, 611 4 , 014449694 corner of Swallow-street. t : v.? 4 , 4 1 ',. hi I. , lii t ( 4 H t .. ~'~', ;i t.: i f ey in some measureattri- i : , 1 ipital Prizes), respectfully i "I . : to a brief Statement of the . ~ begins Nur TUVDDAY S— 4 1 Five of £2,000, others of ~.. t . lank* to a Prise—All the 'Seery Ticket will .lecide I: . II be £20,000 Money.— . very last Lottery, 18,800 tar of £5,000.--Hats,RD :late; 28, Comilla .0 ; hl t . ;;. •street. , . . : t"1 ft I 3 4. cl tt f i'h :t