Star. — London, England, 1817-03-12 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, MARCH 11. The Pamek Department 11tH, the Coffee Bill, the Camille Conimisioners' Bill. and the Pa•settr.ers 1301, passed through Committees, and were reported withritit Aliten•iment. The Treasonable Practice, Bill was real a third time and r ased, with Amendments moved by, the I.ono Cutstsett.LoE, to give to persons convicted tinder this Bill, the benefit of the Act of William I 11. and Queen Anue, aid to enact the sane pu nishment for treasen under this Bill as enacted by the 54 tiro. li'. A few words were .aid by Lord Idur.Las) respecting the propriety of Making a more clear er.,ctment respecting accesses ries, but the LORD C:t 0,:c1,..Lt.it, did not think it advisable that any alteration regardi this ;quilt shouid be made. 'rite Earl ot tin the subject of the notice he gave with reference at t I,e iithject of Dlitillation in Ireland, said he had reason to b-tieve that the question va.ts ler the serious consideration ut his Majesty's IslioiAeri,anJ therefore lieshould not pre;. his MOttittl He re-erved to himself, however, the right of bringing on the general question at any future period, and he remained ot opinion, that his hdajesty's 'Ministers had incurred a heavy responsibility in not genii Mg the Distilleries early in the swoon. :•IsecuitEs AND USELESS OFFICES. E:4l GROSVENOR said, he rose to address their L;rd,hips on a subject which he considered of the greitest importance, hut snore peculiarly so at the present moment, when so much discontent and indignant feeling existed in the public mind, and when the whole people of England were libelled by being in consequence branded with disaffection, as a reason for passing the strong measure to which the House had recently given its ascent. His object now was not to go through a list of sinecures or useless offices (a task which he was happy to, be relieved from) but to call upon their L,rdships to agree to a motion generally for their abolition, to which he could not conceive there could be any sound objec tian. The Noble and Learned Lord on the Wool sack had formerly opposed such a mfuion as an in novat;on. The Noble and Learned Lord seemed disposed to embrace the Constitution as it was with all its corruptions; he (Lord Grosvenor), on the contrary, wished to amputate the gangrened limb, in order to restore health to the body. Some of the col leagues, however, of the Noble and Learned Lord, appeared to entertaiW an opinion different to what the Noble and Learned Lord himself held, it being -re ported that they intended to abolish certain sinecures, consisting of the Lord Wardenship of the Cinque Ports, the four Tellerships of the Exchequer, &c. and it appearing that some offices had been got rid of as unnecessary. This was certainly something, but it was not enough ; much wt retrained to be done. As to the objection formed) , urged, that si necures were the reward of military or naval or pub lic services, he was not aware that there was at any time, an indisposition to grant pensions or gratuities for eminent services. Sinecures were, on the other hard, frequently not available when wanted for such a purpose; and when they were vacant they had been too troluently granted to individuals who had no title tcohem whatever on the ground of public service. His Lordship having desired the various petitions praying for economical Reform to be entered as read, observed that it was incumbent upon the House tie, attend seriously at a moment like the preeope, to die prhyet of these petitions, in order to lessen the cay.sel for discontent. For this purpose more ought ro dime in' the way of retrenchment. It was c'Jrieus that though the Committee appointed by Government lied recommended the not filling up one of the v acan- Citli in the Auditors of Public Accounts, Pit that vacancy it had since been thought expedient t o fill up. Nothing had been said respecting the. office of Secretary of State for the War and Colonlal Depart. aunts, though he was of opinion that the, office might be wholly reduced, or at lea.st that it 'would be only necessary to retain one of the Under. Secretaries and a lei/Clerks. For one t/. the Paymasters-General also, lj saw no necessity whatever. The same rea son would apply to the Junior Lords of the Admi ralty. This latter sittlil lion had been held out as a; school for young ; if it were so, certainly these young politician,, ought to pay ai,ooo a-year for their education, instead of receiving it. He (Lord Grosvenor) had himself been one of the Ju nior. Lords of the Admiralty. When he first took his seat at the Boar d These, large volumes of Statutes were placed before him, which he did not feel much, disposed to read; further than this lie had nothing to; do but to sign his name, the first Lord (as he be lieied was the practice of his successors) not cond.. wending to commit the Junior:Lords upon any busi neis, except prow and then the- Naval Lords upon points immediately within their own knowledge. He therefore thought that we or two of these Junior Lords might be taken away withourthe least detri ment to the public service. He felt it a very painful duty' to advert to this subject; because, though be did not despair i and though he looked with contempt upon the doctrine of the dramatic poet, that 44 When vice prevails and impious men bear sway, The post, of honour Is a private station." (Without, however, intending in the slightest delves to apply this to his Majesty's Ministers), still lie fear ed he' should not meet. with any adequate support.— Notieltbstanding this, however, be felt it to be a public duty tdhrtng:forward this subject, and from the exe cution-of that thity. be could not bring himself to re-' Upon 'ilii'ipsestiOn of listless offices generally,' b e wi s h e d to observe, that with regard to efficient ° tu n , he , was eatisfied the public did not expect, from men who actually devoted their time to .the, public mike; that they should contributi a portion of their salaries. And here he must allude to bad -what. • beas said by a kfuble Lord 03 a former night , intimating %hit persons of landed property ought to contribute to the public exigencies. He (Lord CsrOS• venor) believed, that the preasure of diitress was too feral amongst this class to allow of such a measure. eltad been told recently by a friend of his, pips.' seised of large landed property, that such was the distress amongst his tenants, that his income was at present no more than what he had formerly paid to the Property Tax, so that had that tax remained, he would have had nothing to' live upon. . - This hi bp • lieved.to be generally the . care with landed proprie tors, and as he had formerly !toted, that no one re-' ceived his income onclitithisbed, but those who were . : paid out of the taxes. He r however, by no tieans thought, nor did he believe the pablie expected that those Whir held efficient eddies, to which they devoted their tithe, 'should Rive up a part of their salaries, with' only this exCeptiosi, that where their salaries bad been 'failed in conteckierice of the deprecation of the (weary; it wis'folt that the overplus shouldnOw be given tap . Wiih'rekaii t o Offices that were ins east • • ---7- degree u silent, it was Undoubtedly just that the sala ries of such offices should be reduced. With respect to the granting of offices in reversion, he thought it essential that that practice should be abolished; un• less it was there could be no regulation of sinecures, and the idea of granting efficient offices in reversion was manifestly absurd, as there could in that case Ile no security for the competent execution of the office. With respect to the subject genes ally, he thought it essential that a pledge should be given to the peo ple, that every possible retrenchment was really inter.ded. Whatever difference of opinion existed with Illspect to Parliamentary Reform, all the Petitioners •agreed in looking to Economical Reform, and this iinques tionably ought to be granted. Neither woeild they be satisfied unless the people had a proper c'aeck and controul over the House of Commons. Notwith standing all the efforts of any of the Mon archies on the Continent—notwithstanding the effects of torture in Spain, he was satisfied that the people would ulti mately obtain what they now sought, ne.mely, a free representative Constitution. It was iv vain to say that the French Revolution was brought about by clubs and societies, like those against which the Sus pension of the Habeas Corpus Act vtas intended to operate. They so re the effect of dissolute morals and manners, of financial embarrass? nents; and above all, of the despotic nature of the Pt..ench Government —(Hear, hear).—Many a Government had begun under the Nappies auspices, and orith the fairest pros pects, and ended as the French G overnment had done: " Fair laughs the morn, an. sae_ the zephyr blows, " WbilA proudly riding o'er aft azure maim " In gallant trim, the gilded vessel goes ; " Youth at the prow, and PlP:asure at the helm, " Regardless of the *weepier, / whiflwind's sway "'That, busled hi grim rep o.e, expects his evening prey." He could not help now •saying a few words with re spect to a matter personal to himself. He had, on a former occasion, been called to order for namin? cer tain Members of the Executive Government in the ' other House. Now he had been made in some guar ' ter to say, that by 'the suspension of the Habeas Cor pus Act the libere,es of the people would be placed at the mercy of med,i person: as, &c. Now he had not made use of there word. ; and he was desirous that this should be tinderstood, lest an impression should prevail any wf .ere, that he acted from any personal motives, hate ad of acting on public grounds. But it was on publi e grounds alone that he proceeded ; and he protesteji and declared, that if his Noble Friends near him vitere to become Minister:, and were to act on the principles which appeared to govern the con duct of tioe present Ministry, he would oppose them. The Ministry which he wished for was one which would oak, not merely to the prerogatives of the Crows., hut also to the privileges of the people; a Ministry which, while it steadfastly regarded the pre. rogas*tive and dignity of the Crown with one eye, wor,ld regard the privileges of the people no less sir adfastly with the other : and if the caprice of the sovtreign should at any time call upon it to deviate i tiorn these principles, he wished for the Ministers who would resign their places rather than comply I Wear, hear).—He did not oppose the present Mini / suer: on any personal ground; and he earnestly and solemnly entreated the House, and , especially the bench of Bishops, to recollect, that if it was possible that a people should conspire against their Govern. ment, it was also possible that a Government might conspire against the people—(Hear, hear).—There was one point more to which he wished to call the attention of the House. The saving, as it appeared from the Papers on the table, amounted-to 450,000; but the excess of Salaries lately created amounted to 4126,000, or from that to se170,000; from which their Lordships would perceive, how small in com parison the saving was. He proposed, then, these tour Resolutions Tbat Sinecures should be abolished after the expiration of the lives during which they were at present held: 2d, That useless Places should be abolished forthwith, or properly re gulated: Scl, That Places or Offices should no more be granted in reversion : and then, 4th, he should propose a Resolution in favour of some Reform. , The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, the Noble Earl (Grosvenor) seemed to think that Government 'and Parliament were disposed to libel the general loyalty of . the People of England.. He should be glad to know whom the Noble Earl considered as the People of England I Was it those who were disaffected to the Government and Constitutioa.of the country ? Was it those who had lately assembled at certain meetings—the meetings at Spa-fields and others of a similar description, whom he considered as the people of England He would not say that Government had libelled this tw i t of the people, but he would say that they had done what they considered themselves in duty called on. to do—they had endeavoured to guard and protect the people against the attempts, which were made to corrupt and demoralize them, and to lay the foundation of evils such as never be. fore existed in this country. The events which bad taken place since Ministers bad recurred to these pre cautionary measures, did not shew that the views which they took were erroneous. Had the Billi already passed, and those which were in progres s th ro u g h Parliament, given rise to dismay or despondency ? Some weeki ago there was a general despondency throughout the country, but what was its state at the present moment What had been the consequence of the precautionary measures resorted to byGovernmetst? The despondency and dismay had altogether subsid ed,t this was seen in the face of every man whom they met in the street—it was seen in the state of 'Abbe credit. He did not mean to say that these measures ought to be resorted to, except under pecu liar circumstances; but the effect of them at present were seen in the restoration of confidence and credit. While he stated what he considered to be the effects 4 the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, he would say that no man regretted more than be did the necessity for recurring to such a measure. But how had the Noble Earl been induced to deal so harshly with those who proposed the present suspen sion-Ale who fad six or seven times already voted for that measure ?-Heer, hear ! from Earl GROWL uoa.)—The Noble Earl might indeed say that cir cumstances were now very different: That might be the Opinion of the Noble Earl, bat it was not the general opinion. The Noble Bawd near him (Lord Holland) had opposed the measure in all times and under all circumstances—be was therefore consistent is opposing it at the present moment--but the Noble Earl bad formerly patiently and cheerfully acqui 'aced in the measure, and given it the support of his' Before be proceeded to the coruidazratioo of the Rbsolotions, be wished to advert to some dream evinces affecting the question. Even if the Resolu• sions had been so drawn up as to be liable to no ob. 3ection in themselves, their Lordships could not with any propriety agree to them at the present moment. It was a matter of notoriety that a Committee was now actually sitting in another place, named for the purpose of inquiring into all the branches of the Public Expenditure. Even if their Lordships were in a situation to understand a subject which had eever been before them, the circumstance of this Committee being appointed to inquire into the public expenditure was alone a sufficient ground for their not taking it up. This was the only species of Legi slation in which, even if the Noble Earl's Resolutions were passed, no subsequent proceedings could take place. Even if the Resolutions were unobjectionable, the House ought not to adopt a measure from which no practical good could be derived. He should now come to the consideration of the Resolutions. The first Resnlution went to propose the Abolition of all Sinecures. The first question which he should ask the Noble Lord was, what was a Sinecure ? He was satisfied that if he pin such a question to the Noble Earl, he could not answer it. II he were to take the long list of places enumerated in a. Bill brought up from the other House, some time ago, and very pro perly rejected by their Lordships, and to ask how many of them were Sinecure, ? the Noble Earl could not answer him. Whether these Offices ought or ought not to subiiist, was a very different question ; but however that question might be decided, he was convinced that there were not above four or five 01 these offices to which, in the most liberal interpreta tion of the word Sinecure, that word could apply.— If be were to take the Exchequer places, for instance, all of them were important offices, demanding not merely a responsibility of character, but a pecuniary reiponsibility, and security was given to the public by the individuals who held them. He was not say ing that the Noble Earl might not be of opinion that those offices were given away in a manner in which they ougitt not to be given—that they ought to be given as the reward of merit. He did not mean to say any thing as to the justice or injustice of this opinion. But if the Noble Earl thought these offices were Sinecures, he was completely mistaken. All the offices named in that Bill to which he had allud ed had duties to perform. The offices could not be abolished, as the duties of them could not be abolish. ed. Whether the offices were gintrin a proper way as a reward for services, that was a distinct question; but with regard to these offices, Sinecures were cer tainly not their name—this was nothing but a nick name. When the Noble Earl, therefore, called on them to abolish Sinecures, he called on them to do something indefinite which he knew nothing about. If a measure for the abolition of Sinecures were to pas.% he would ask what offices would tail to be abo lished, coming under this name ? Was there one of their Lordships who could give an answer to that question ? He did not mean to say that it might pot be true that many of the offices enumerated in the Bill sent up from the Commons ought to be abolish ed. That some of the offices ought at least to be converted to different purposes, might be true ' • but it required much more experience than what the Noble Earl could possibly possess to legislate on such a subject. He did not wish to preclude them from the discussion of this subject when brought regularly before them, and when they knew what it was which it was proposed to abolish ; but he protested against the bringing forward of abstract and general Resolu dons, embracing names which the Noble Earl could not define, and applying to objects respecting which there was the greatest uncertainty. With respect to what had been said by the Noble Earl regarding the influence of the Crown, he should not at present go into the subject, though be was perfectly prepared to shew the monstrous absurdity of the position that the influence of the Crown was increased in Parliament —(Near, hear). Whenever that question should come before Parliament, he was prepared to state the reasons on which his opinion respecting this subject was founded. With regard to Retrenchment, he would allow that there was at all times an impe rative call on the Executive to attend to principles of Economy and Retrenchment ; and if ever there were any special circumstances which called on Ministers more imperatively to attend to these principles, it was the present• circumstances of the Country, when the distress of the People, whatever its ceases, was so unusually great—(/Your, Near). Whether his Majesty's Government would attend to this call Was a question which at no distance of time would be solved. When the peace establishment had been stated in another place, by those in opposition to the Administration, at 4700,000 more than the es stimatee now before Parliament, be thought that alone was a strong presumption that there would be wan ting no induration on the part of Ministers to make every reduction in the expenditure of the country, compatible with the public service. With respect to Colonial Offices, none were in future to be,given to, or held by any persons who did not reside. in the Colonies, which would at once render all the offices in the Colonies efficient offices. With respect to the office of Third Secietary of State, no man at all ac quainted with the public business,-would pretend that the business of the country could be carried on with out the exertions of the Third Secretary of State.— This he would state as a matter which came within his own personal knowledge. Did the Noble Earl think it practicable to transfer the business of this Office to the Secretary of State foi the Home De.' 'partment ? He believed no man had physical or mo ral strength to go through more business than. what had been done by his Noble Friend at the head of the Home Department during .he last l$ months.— He believed there would be no difference of opinion with respect to this subject among those who gave themselves the trouble to inform themselves respec ting the nature and extent of the public business at the different Offices. Upon the whole, he objected to the Resolutions, as no practical good could result from them, and as they could only, if carried, embar rass the discussion of questions subsequently te - come before Parliament. Oa these grounds be should move the previous question. Lord ST. JOHN said, it bad been often observed that persons entertaining different political questions saw things in very different lights; and that obser vation was never more applicable than to the dif ferent amounts gires by his Noble Friend and the' Noble Earl Opposite (Liverpool') of the opinion now entatained with regard _to al measures lately re 'sorted to, and the impression which these measure had made on the public mind. Many circunistaes:t. were calculated to have a considerable effect on tl, public Funds, but he never should have suspects that the Suspension of the British Constitution w, calculated to produce a favourible effect on tI.A . Funds—(l/ear, hear.) He tft.tild much rather hay: been disposed to attribute any rise in the Fonds an underktandiog that considerable reduet;uns about to be made in the public expenditure. 'l're Noble Earl (Liverpool) had said a good deal abou: the difficulty of defining what a Sinecure Office israF.. The Noble Earl had misconceived what his ':•:oble. Friend said. An office might not be a Sinucere, and yet the person who held it a Sinectuist, if the business was done by Deputy. Though the office might be an efficient one, and required security to hp given by the individual who held it, yet if the busi ness was dune by Deputy, the individual holding the office was purely a Sinecurist. The Noble Lail opposite had said there was an objection in limine to entertaining questions of this nature. Nothin was, in his opinion, more desirable than that the petitions of the people, at a conjuncture like thepresent, shoubi have every possible weight with both Houses of Parliament. He recollected all the discussicas du ring the American war, when the complaints on the subject of Retrenchment were as Ind as at preteit. He recollected the Home of Conamons were ',tan called to the consideration of questions ef economy, when petitions for economy and retrelichment, aud complaining of the extravagant expenf2iture of the Crown, were poured in front all parts of the count: v. They would be holding their dignities too high wvire they to say they would not pay attention to such petitions. The Act of Succession, by which the pri vileges of the House of Commons were so essentially secured, did not originate in that House, but with their Lordships. Yet that was a subject respecting which the other House might have been top( cted to be as jealous, as respecting questions of expenditete. But according to the' Noble Earl, every thing rela ting to expenditure was so peculiarly the province of the Commons, that though the table oitheir Lord. ships should be loaded with petitions, they were lot called on to take any notice of them. Th.: N.:'o!e Lord (St. John) went into an examination of Ilse re sult of the labours of the Committee appoiru:d to quire into offices erected since the war, ei.ti a view. to seduction—and maintained that the redutions, which amounted to about £50,000, acre compete sated for by superannuations very nearly to the sane amount. He contended that <flices created Zurlrg war, and depending for continuance on the war, were to be considered as temporary offices, and t'Ae persons filling them had no right to consider them selves as permanent officers, and entitled to superan nuation. He complained also of the withdrawing from the Comptrollers of Army Accounts the auditing of the Commissariat Accounts, which formed part of their business. The Earl of LAUDERDALE could not give his support to the motion of the Noble Earl (Grosvenor) nor his approbation to the reasons on which the No. ble Earl (Liverpool) objected to that motion. The present state of the tenantry throughout the country was distressing in the extreme, and without the pros pect of relief. The landed interest was reduced to a state never previously known in that country. The Noble Earl seemed to doubt this—but there was no man who knew any thing of the state of the country that did not know that the tenantry, when they paid any rent at all, paid it alone out of their capital, out of the funds for cultivating their land', and rencleting them capable of future production. What had ptc duced the great improvements in the country, buc the capital in the hands of the operative tenants ? It was ridiculous to look for any relief in the distresses of the country from the Abolition of Sinecure places. With respect to the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, which, according to the Noble Lord opposite. had had such effects in the way of restoring con& •dence and credit, what relief could the truantry of -the country derive from that measure ? Would it enable them to pay the landlords their rent ? Would it enable the manufacturer to obtain a price for his goods from those who had nothing to give for them ? Did the Noble Earl attribute the rise of the Funds to this cause? A more ludicrous cause of the rise of Funds he had never heard stated than that assigned by the Noble Lord. He believed there never was a I time when public men en j o y e d so little of the public money as at this moment—he never had enjoyed much of the public mon e y him se lf—b ut h e thou:;lit i it was but fair to state this for the sake of refuting the erroneous opinions entertained en this subject.— At the different Meetings throughout the colliery all parties were represented as contending for the loaves and fishes—and the revenue was said to be swallowed up by devouring sinecures. If any man wished to make his fortune, a seat in Parliament was the last course which he should advise him to take. How stood the patronage of the Crown wish respect to offices held by Members of P ar li amen t i n t h e presentt time, compared with former times ? A Commito.e rf ! the House of Commons accu ra t e ly re p orte d reo p ee t. ing every office held by Members of the li.itoe of Commons. Since that time the number had ra ther diminished than increased; but he would 1.1:e it as a fair estimate. In 1807, there were sixtyo:rne Merribers of the House of Commons, beiongii , g to England and Scotland who held offices. In 17 , 5 the number of Members holding offices amounted to I , ninety three, and a considerable accession ems fe ceived from Scotland by the Unicn. In the division on the Triennial Act, the number of placernea amounted to one hundred and twelve. In the divi sion on the Excise Question, in 1739, there were one hundred and ninety-two placemen, enjoying alit. griller £212,000 a-year ; whereas at the present time, the number for England, Scotland, and Ireland, te.!s seventy-four, enjoying emoluments to the amount oi £119,000 a-year. There were therefore one hund , cd and nineteen more placemen in 1739 than at the pre- I sent time. This certainly deserved considera o'n, when it was now so loudly said that the influence of the Crown had increased so much. Certainly he thought the influence of the Crown in the ot!er House was lessgobjectionable than ever it was at any time. It had nevertheless increased ont of tits /rS to a very great extent. After the American I't'ar, the debt was only 5240,000,000, with a ch:irge of tot millions; now it was seven hundred ntillioar, tsith ti-irty-seven millions charge. In former periods, voice of the other House bad forced a change of vernment is but now the influence of the Crowa cLit 1 1 pin I C