Star. — London, England, 1814-07-16 00:00:00

I would give them. Parliament mir,ht as well give a power, by al wrt:ol d ca.het, or some oiler equally unconstitutional measure, of arresting any of the King's suhj-c s. Lord C.V.TI.EI4EAGH was not prepared' to make this Toys jump from a state o f tatrloe tl..trgt•r to one of such periCc: tran quility as the lion. Gentlemen who opposed this measure seemed inclined to •!o. He 0141413 th , re Eli was a necessity, though a Ilntigate.l lOr this l'aili.tmentary measure. ' Lord 30: N USS 1: 1.1. irioose.i :in. second reading. The House: disn slieided—lor the second resoling 92—Against it 23. creesesse SUFFERERS. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order of the Day for the Committee of Serply. It was ordered that the Civil List Accounts, the Miscellaneous Estimates, and the Prince Regent's Message relative to the German Sufferers be referred to the Committer. The House. having resolved it adi into the Committee, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose and said that among the various circumstances which had adorned the ikitish character and raised the British name of late years, was the exertion of our liherality towards the sufferers of other nations. .Among those to, whom the support of Parliament had been extended there were none who had a better claim to their liberality than those to whom he should call the attention of the Committee, whether they considered the unprecedented ravages of the war or the merit:. and patriotism of those who had suffered from them. Ameng these sufferers were, our fellow subjects in Hanover; the unfortunate inhabitants of Hamburg!), v.lio by a premature declaration of their zeal in the cense of Europe, had subjected themselves to the vengeance of the late Ruler of France ; the brave Silesiatis ; tae companioes and countrymen of the pallant Blucher, and the inlet'eitants of Saxony, who in the unexampled battle of Leipsic saw their country laid waste for 30 leagues round that city. The extent of the waste committed defied all compa rison with former wars. The magnitude of the con tending armies who had inoved.without magazines, and with a rapidity ueknown in former wars, from the Vistula to the Rhine, over SJ vast an extent of cenntry, had rendered the devastation terrible. At times when the theatre of war had been more narrow, and the contending armies of more limited magni tude, it* had often happened that a cmmtry was en riched by war, but as in the late conflict no regula tioni could have been adopted for payment, all was exertion, violence, rapacity, and devastation. There had been a waste of lives and wanton ravage num. aMpled. The contribution which he had to propose in aid of the voluntary contributions, wes undoubt edly large, being a sum of £lOO,OOO, but the spon taneous liberality of the British public had exceeded in amount this sum which was now demanded from Parliament. This sum would be far from being a remuneration for the loss sustained, for from the sum already raised by private contributions, it was only visible to grant 7000 dollars, where the extent of lOas had been 700,000. This relief, though small in proportion to the loss, would keep the sufferer from sinking . under despondency and care. It would shew him that his sufferings had not been forgotten, and that we had not been less sensible to the sufferings of Germany, area we were to those of Portugal. Ihe Chancellor of the Exchequer concluded by moving a Grant of 4100,000 to his ittiesty, to enable him to afford relief to such inhabitants of Germany as had suffered in their persons or property from the ravages of the late war. Mr. BANKES gave his hearty concurrence to the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend. It would not be decorous (he observed) if the great exettions of private benevolence should be suffered to pass un aideel by Parliament. In votes similar to the present, the charity was wont to be damped by doubts whe ther the grant would be discreetly applied. If they could reason from analogy, they had nothing to fear in the present instance, but they might rely that the sum which they munificently granted would be pro vidently dispensed. The account of the distribution of the List grant of money to Portugal was most sa tisfactory, and accounted with the utmost exactitude for the smallezt sums. The Commissioners appointed to distribt;te that sum, among wlrem was Mr. Croft, who had drawn up the Repo: t, had occupied them selves in visiting the peasant in his cabin, desolated by the ravages of the troops, and by a judicious ap plication of the money granted, had restered the bles sings of cultivation to that wasted land. He hoped soon to see an account of the application of the more recent and larger grant of £200,000 to Russia. It Would be right to chew, amidst the splendour and re joicings of the day, that the duties of humanity were not neglected, but that in security or in danger we retained cur disposition to save and succour all who were in distress. Mr. GOItIiON said he should oppose the grant. The, speeches of the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not make so little 'impression on the House or n him (Mr. Gcrdon), that he cnuld forget his declaration cn the tot met night, that they were not voting their own money but that of their constituents. On that occasion the Right Hon. Gentleman had opposed the provisional allow ance to those gall tut men v,lio fought in the bat tles of their country. It was 11;s maxim, that charity begins at hi tae; and it was qt,t justifiable, that while the Hill's.: iclused the increase of allowance, prop:)scd by a Gallant General, to our Own brave and dis tress 'd corintrytheii, they should stek abroad objects for tlieir benev, hence. ll' v..as no :,round for the in te. fereece of Pal liantroo that :nivete subscrip t; ~ o s bud I,t•en raiNrc!, for it sees obvious to every (lute t ! !a t e ct:rttriliu.;on S were cl•cwaisplied to some of tore 7 :4ll distre..i v.l id , . c.t cleft the pllhliC a .:11!:‘ 11 the trt !I:2y rt. 7. : r.d . an twz,:e to 11w:tinny 11,:•:e to Z.Uppoll 011 f OW). doru...stic in , tnu , :ons of :ha: he. 4Mr. ROSE Spoke in raw.ar of the rnot - rin, and, Mr. %V If .11L1( f. llowed Ott the sam e tide, nincrving that lie did rvit v:qe fir Vie increase of pay to the strbal:ero ofiice,:r of ti,r2 army Was pro ptr,e4 by some Gentle ten, because f•c Lid not know ledge envigla of the case to satisfy his mind as to the necessity which caile:i for the increase, neither coMel his mind to vote azaitist the proposition. re3 , 9ect to the motion before the Committee, that our military officer;Would, if con. be anroitg the first to support it. For those men would never maintain that the bounty of lent should not be granted to the suffering in. ef Germany, merely because a particular ,on with respect to their pay or allowance, had at trot to meet the approbatiott of that Hobse. Mr. Alderman SMITH supported the ;notion, and deprecated any attempt to discourage these voluntary :contributions for the relief of distressed foreigners, which proceeded from the best feelings of the country. Mr. WHITBREAD said, that he could not hesi tate to express his opinion that this motion ought not to be acceded to. He opposed upon the same grounds which induced his disapprobation of a former grant to the Portuguese, namely, that such a grant must be inefficacious with regard to the mass fur whom it was intended, while it was unjust towards thiscoun try. His Honourable Friend who spoke last, had thought proper to be somewhat epigrammatic upon the contrast between the refusal of a grant to our own military officers, while it was proposed to be so libe ral to the inhabitants of another country; but he submitted that nothing could be more just than the complaint which our officers had to prefer on this or.- ' casion, although the Honourable Gentlemen profes sed to think that they would, and ought to say to the House--. , You should grant to foreigners that libe rality which you deny to us." Thus the Honourable Gentleman would appear to argue, that the House should be rather generous than just. For justice called upon Parliament to acknowledge the prior claim of our own officers. If the state of our finances were pleaded as a reason for refusing to accede to a claim in favour of cur Officers, still he would main tain, that we ought to he just before we were gene rous. But Witte state of our finances were not theonly cause of objection to attend to the claims referred to. awl that we were called upon to obey the voice of humanity, in favour of those people who had suffered by the war, lie would ask, was the voice to cry in vain when it implored' our consideration for the thou sands of widows and orphans which the war had pro- Lived in our own country ? Was the appeal of these numerous objects of compassion to have no influence upon Parliament, while our interest was so much excited by the suffering of fereigners ? Were he to follow alone the feelings of his heart, he should natu rally shrink from opposing any proposition for the relief of human suffering ; but he must oppose this motion upon, he repeated, the same grounds which urged his resistance to a similar Grant with respect to Portugal. He disapproved of such grants, be cause justice claimed a precedency of consialeratian for our own people, and because extended to other nations, they must be ineffectual. That the blessings of gratitude would await us from such as experienced any relief from our bounty in Portugal, he thought very probable ; but still he couljnot think it a proof of our discrimination or justice, to prefer the grati tude.of foreigners to that and the relief of our own people. The same observation which he had made as to Portugal, was equally applicable to the people of Russia and Germany. The people of these coun tries should look for relief from their own Govern ments, rather than to the Government of this coun try, which had quite enough in the suffering of its own subjects to occupy its attention, especially con sidering the amount of its means. rur although some Gentlemen talked so pompously of the extent of our resources, observing that we ought to afford from our superfluity the means of relief to others, be ( Mr. W. ) suggested the propriety of considering a little calmly the nature of these resources. He would indeed ask any Gentleman to point out where he could find rea sons to believe that these resources were not finite— did the Right Honourabte Gentleman, the Chancel lor of the Exchequer, so believe ? For his own pat t he must say, that although his feelings were alive to such a claim as the motion referred to, his judgment refused to accede, because, with the other reasons he had stated, he did not think that our finances should be so disposed of. The circumstances of our present situation in the ..nj•ryment of peace, .ind a harvest of glory, were no doubt very flattering, but when the day of reckoning came, he much feared it would press very hard upon England ; and he ap prehended that our gallant officers who had for fU years teen struggling to produce that situation, would have cause to repine, that white a just reward was refused to them, a liberal bounty was extended to foreigners. As -to the al!:ision of the Honourable Alderman (Smith), to voluntary contributions, he should say, that he would ue sorry to damp tire spirit of benevolence in whatever shape it was exhi bited, but he was very sorry to understand, that in pro portion as the contributions for the relief of foreigners' had increased, tl,e several institutions for the support of our own distressed fellow subjects had been round to languish.--(Thar, knir.) Tins tact, of which he was assured, was to his mind a cause of melancholy contemplation, but it was naturally to be expected; for as the means of every individual were finite, a con tribution to one object west naturally reduce atten tion to another. The Honourable Gentleman con cluded with stating, that it he were to vote according to his feelings, lie should suppott the grant to the utmost, but attending to the considerations of reason, he felt it his duty to vote against the motion. Mr. Wii.nEntiouce explained. I.ord CASTLEREAGH thought the principle of the grant was wise in itself; alto whenever public lecling appeared so strong 'is upon the present occa sion, it never could be' improper in Parliament to fol low it. The question for consideration was, what was the sound feeling widi respect to the grant, both at home and abroad ? Nothing had a tendency to make character so sitting as liberality of this nature ; and in fact it was our own security to act upon such an elevation of principie as to make the sufferings tat others our own. It was a great recori eudatiun of the present ineasme, that the House had been antici pated by the public, who had c.nne for.waid sponta neously on the occasion, and with a ltberaiity that did honour to their feelings. lly such conduct a moral excitement would be r:.ised, which would be of great imp:tit:ince to the reiiel cf individuals by calling forth their own exertions ; but independently of clan, a great practical relict had been ;worded to the ac tual sufferers, and a great step had b:eit taken to fur nish them with that employ anent, and to administer that comfort, which could not have taken place for years without some external aid. The state of many parts of the country that had been overrun by the enemy was deplorable in the extreme. The seed-corn had been destroyed, the cattle had been taken away, and all the materials of industry had been consumed, which, witlkart assistance hour abroad, could never be restored. It was not f tit to contrast domestic .with foreign sufferings ; and no measure could'be more truly political than one which tended to conci hate the affections by relieving the wants and reatov- I int , the distresses of others. Mr. FORBES contended, that from the grants that had been formerly made to Porto&lzt i ld Russia, coupled with the proposed grant to Germany, there was a permanent annual expense to the country of R 20,000 per annum. A considerable sum was at present in the hands of the Russ i an Committee of which they were at a loss how to dispose . A subscri p . for the relief of the Rus htande a b m ee o n un s t en o t f to him him from Bombay, and the Committee would not receive it. We should be just lion a s, to before we were generous, and the voluntary contribu tions that had been so liberally subscribed might serve as a good reason for diminishing the proposed grant. Lord CASTLEREAGH stated that every degree of attention had been paid to the distribution of the Russian contributions, though the accounts had not been wound up as in the case of Portugal. NVlten that should take place, he had no doubt the result would be equally satisfactory. There were numerous clai mants in Russia who would be happy to participate in the 41000 stated to have been transmitted to the Hoe. Gentleman, and the money ,would be most thankfully received, and most usefully' employed. Mr. TIE ItNEY.—If nobody in Russia would take the money, the lion. Gentleman would be at no loss to find many in this country who would gladly take it. He should wish to know what were the smti ments of those foreign powers whose Ministers were now in the country, as the sum voted to Russia had been said to be unsatisfactory ? The No:de Lord, (said Mr. Tierney) shakes his head, an usual prac tice with hint, when dissatisfaction is expressed at a grant of money. One argument of the Noble Lori was singular enough ; that the proposed grant world establish and uphold the character of the country.— It would appear, then, that England, whicit for the last twenty years had bled at every pore, and wl.ich had made such enormous sacrifices both of men and money for the common cause, required her chat-aver to be established on the Continent by a grant of seloo,ooo. (Hear, hear.) Would those who had re covered those dominions contribute nothing to the relief of their suffering subjects, and pay r For the territories they had regained ? The House had been called on by the R;ght Hon. Gentleman to con tribute to the relief of their fellow-subjects in Hanover. He should be glad to know what had been paid by the Regency of Hanover, and by persons closely con nected and deerly interested in the fate of that coun try, for the selirf of its suffering inhabitants. (hear, hear.) The resources of the country ought to be ap plied to relieve distress at home. The case of the Subaltern Oilicers had been put upon a tooting of ceconotny ; and it most be a galling consideration for them to reflect, that others had got what they had missed, and that what was refused to them had been granted to foreigners. Midshipmen, to t!:e number of 3000, would now be thrown nut of employmera, without any provision being made, and with habits that reivfered them unfit kr any other situation of life. The Crown hid tfrote!lit proper to calf upon the House to relieve the baker:rs in Germany, but the necessity for'relief was equally great at home.— ln voting the public money the House was supposed to be ready enoligh ; hut upon the present occasion he could not agree to the proposed vote, velich, from principle, and principle alone, lie was reluctantly com pelled to oppose. Loid CAS i'LUREAGH said that the aid firm this country was v..-ry well and kindly receiv J e by the foteia,n Governments, Russia as well as others. The Officers in our servi.e entered oith a view of half - pay, but would ciatte out of it a - with greater allowance than they contemplated on entering, is t he proportion of Is. 10d. to 3s. Every thing might be perverted by the use of dangerous though specious arguments. 'rue liberality proposed tot rein suf. ferers had no connection witn the arr., 4,ernents of the Army hall-pay. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had only objected to increasing the hait-viy., oec. , ase it would derange the whole system. As to grants to foreigners, the Germans hid suffere Liteaalfully. The exettions of Prussia had then inconc.-ivab.y great. Even delicate and .-eiirn-d I i..l:es Lad dev,,ted themselves to cases which stiii 4 ht inspise itnJ horror into persons of firmer nt.rves. The Rtng Prussia had expressed here his thankfulness to the Committee for voluntary conuibutions, and had him. self suhssribed. Mr. H; THORNTON and Sir T. ACKLAND spoke in favour of the grant, which was agiced to without a Pfllß CLEftt:Y. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved for the grant of £lOO,OOO to aid et Queen Ann's Bounty to the Poor Clergy. Among the ob jects of this grant, it was intended to include the cler gy of Jetsey, Guernsey, Alderney, 3/c. Mr. W. S M ITH opposed the grant; not because the Clergy were not respectable and meritorious, and very often insufficiently paid, but because it was proper to make a pre‘ions enquiry into the church revenues, and thereLy to ascertain whether they were sufficient to relieve the poorer clergy. They might not be so, yet enquiry was war. Mr. H6RNE R.—The clergy of Jersey, &c. were no more entitled to this relict - than those of the list and West Indies, or the Isle of Man, or any others who did not contribute to the revenues of England and Wales, front which this relief was to be afforded. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the proposition Was made to Ow Pi ivy C o u n . cil, and it was not thought expedient to m.ike it a se. panne question. The Isle of 'Man was, in some re spects, an independent place; and the West Indies, though under the Ecclesiastical authority of the s Lop of London, were rot like Jersey, &c. annexed to a diocese, as these latter were to that of Winchester. A conversation ensued between Mr. flouNiut, Mr. WYNNE, the CHANCELLOR of the Escura.turat, Mr. I.lamus, bir EGERTON &c. it Ninth the lICSOIUGOiI was cat tied. CIVIL LIST. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved to grant acllB,ooo to defray the defietencies of the Civil List. The expences of the Civil List, he observed, consisted of two branches. Those of the King's private household had been reduced, but there WAS an increase in the political department. In the first class, in the establishments of the Roy.►l Family, there had been no alteration. The second class, the salaries of Judges remained the san:e. In the third, the salaries to our Ministers abroad, there had been a considerable increase, as m►ght be expected, amount ing to £13,000. In the sixth class, however, to counterbalance this addition, there was a diminution of £6,000 in pensions to Ministers unemployed, which of course ceased, the same persons having been called upon for their services again. In the fourth claws of the Household, there was a decrease of dil',ooo. In the Lord Chamberlain's and Lord Steward's depart ments, there was an equal diminution In the fifth class, there was an augmentation of £3,000. Under the head of miscellaneous payments, there was an in crease of £SO,OOO, from £95,000 to £e1'25,000. In presents to foreign Ministers, there had been an addi tios of £lO,OOO. There had also been a sum of £lOO,OOO appropriated to the due and magnificent entertainment of the foreign Sovereigns. The whole amount of the Civil List in the last•year, had been 5e1,309,000, and in the present year £1,349,000. The Chancellor of the Exchequer concluded with alluding to a Royal Palace, which was at present only in remote contemplation, but which, if erected, would cost £500,000. _ _ yep June, ecui useslidrixtv hen could, iwas quite therefore, Mr. TIERNEY.must say that this was, at least, t asevses Session; se ; r t i h o c u r s e subject being f n o o r the time consideration d i r t iant this. t A he s n : lo t Civil List was going on, it was quite without limits. nh,avoes by th t q ho uest A i c ol t s . By the present system, n ar n dies of complicated papers. It requirecra Committee tb i c o h:emro v rey a ee i il t edo o menrl attem p t onlytt expired discussion pi p ir t t:d harassing hiAtnel the House with ba. above stairs, with power to call and examine wit nesses ; and nothing less was sufficient, in order to any right understanding of the business. He had been i to ld on a previous occasion, that it was treading on sacred ground to ask for witnes.es respecting the civil .t, elingli he might move for papers; while, at the came time, Commissioners were Appointed under the Board of XVl•rks for a similar investigation, the result of which had been a teport, and the banging in of a bill to remedy thedefects. Without such previous exa mina,ion of witnesses, lie would be bold to say, that no b;11 would ever have been framed. He would go farther back than the Chancellor of the Exchequer seemed to wish, and lui,lc at the experience of 5 years. In the year 1811-12, which was a sort of mixed year, there was an increase of £lOO,OOO. He sup. nosed this might be owing to the Regency then oc curring, which occasioned a double Royal Estabisit memt. But if the last two years of unrestricted Re gency were considered, and a fair comparison made, it would appear, that, adding illlOO,OOO a-year, foe various circumstances, the Civil List would be £2,445,000 for 1810 and 1811, and £2,600,000 odd fur 1819 and 1914. There was an excess of £214,000. That excess remained to be accounted for, in some way or other. He was casting no censure, .nor ac cusing any Gentleman in particular, for these ex cesses. He could not help noticing the sum of £24,000, charged for Sir Charles Stuart': expenses as Minister at Lisbon. This appeared enormous. He did not mean to say that it was not right, or that Sr . : Charles Stuart did not thin l / 4 it necessary expen diture: but what return could he then move for, to get the details on the subject Nothing could be done, without examining some persons from the l'rea bury. The Right Honourable Gentleman, pointing o u t to the House where the exceedings were, was not proving them necessary. Was not the admitted in ceense of .00,000 a-year at home, a matter of consi derable importance ? Excess might (recto, but the Crown was required and expected to keep within bounds. yet s ace 1804 the exceedings on thv Civil List had actu..lly been recognized by Parliament as amounting t 4124,000 a-year ; and within toe two list years, they hid advanced to no less than two hundred and forty thousand pounds a-year. Was there not something wrong here ?-8. something rot. ten in the state of Denmark ?" It was true, that at this period of the session the matter must be postponed, but he traced that it would not be forgotten. He WAS as ansiolis ior the real magnificence and splendour of the Crown as any man within those walls; yet a solem bargain with Parliament ought to be abided by. For tea years, however, it had been set at neon •t. —lt was said that there were no means of preserving economy in the expenses, from the increast of prices of provisions, &c.; but it was worth while to Link at the scale of some .if the expenses of ths. Royal Fa. miry. The tots! of the Civil List, the reveriae trim the Cons , ,lidated rand. and an annual stun, was 81,700,000 a-year. Ot that sum. the R.:lyal Fain,iy had £571,000, all totally five from the charges of ?hit departments of Master the Horse, Ciamberlaiu, taxes, &c. &c. ; but in hard money. He hoped he w.is saying 'nothing invidi, us ; out only Jo rig his duty to the public in stating this. and noticing the subdivision of this sum. Tile chief feature was the enormity of the Windsor establis:iment. l'here wets some arguments in its layout, when hopes were held out of the desirable event of the King's recovery : but it would now be quite affectation to say that my such hopes existed—!ndeed it would be so to wish it: he meant of course for his Majesty's own talc immense NVinsisor establishmritt was now complee ly a separate one. By the transfer of the establistimeot an expense of £20,000 a year was at once cue ted. The king now received kliio,ooo a year, the Q .eon a n iC d l. d 6 tt i :si ( i 7g: a made }a , and the Princesses £l6,o(ks_t::us a Y•e o c.i r r ly i TIIC King had, it w•as said, £lO,OOO a year from tAtvl,ll,2etwho.D,uoU:ioCitl4yxr.:os:fi-t or La nrssu r. -- So uses, altogether, to i h , a l cc c s a w c , h ; for alt R this u tt • vi a ire s onc t , n u, y out w :yl a d i L t r o tt l ic a h ff ia) - ir •c e.w t ) l, u n t s and our or loyalty inntiithslitniatnkcitnesigleorietf tiannyalincliaanl circum s tances And all this, too, was at Windsor, at a time which was one of affliction anti mourning, when no sign of gaiety was to appear ! Need her Majesty have the entire disposal of ,e29,),000 a year, with the slig ht exception of the provi s i on f or the Princesses? Hs did not state this for the first time : he thought tow pro position monstrous when Mr. Percent first brought it forward. It was absurd now to say it was requi. site. Th e next thing was the est a bli s h ment of sue Prince Regent. His Royal High nets purse of rE60,000, and he had also, he(Mr. Tier ney ) Old not exa ct ly k now why, ..n d mul £lo,oou . i t n i had dapriv a ad year. Why, it she King's privy puree was aaii • 000 a year, should t h e P r i nce ' s be £70,000 ?• This Privy parse was under two heads : one of £60,000, the other of £lO,OOO. His Royal Highness had airakooo a year as Prince of Wales : but why, OR his regency, 1 he bring Bet with he it ass suitutl, be g4liAnt t'Ariiotmei I,4l:ipults propolitio I.4ivenett