Star. — London, England, 1810-02-07 00:00:00

MRLMMENT4Rr PROCEEDINGS. to give Ana - false reptesentatinnla lie lfall per. suaded Ct ie s d eas not a Gentian,* in the Gallery of the House of Commons who would not have spurned at such a proposition. It was said that the Newspa. pets were at liberty to print the Minutes of Evidence as they came out; but would this satisfy the public mind ? All the interlocutory debate, which often formed the most important part of the proceedings of the House, would thereby be lost. It had already happened, that in a debate with closed doors, a ques- - tion had arisen, whether the inquisitorial powers of the House should command evidence from a Privy Councillor? An Honourable and Learned Gentle man opposite to him (the Attorney General) for whom he entertained the highest respect, maintained 1-101;SE OF COMMONS, FEBRUARY 6. a contrary opinion, and asserted, that, without the ' A CAST LER EAGH moved, that there be k King s permission, a id before the i person so circumstanced could IV.. (odor CopiCS of a Letter from his Lor d s hi p to the Commander not g ive his evidence. If that doctrine was persisted Chief, dated 2d of September, ism ;. and also one from Mr. in, it was clear that the inquisitorial functions of the aloso• 2 Jared Stb September , both re l a ti ng to sendin g out Me- House were at an end, and it would be well for the , va t Gentlemen to Walcheren.-o . rdered. üblic to know who supported lln3o The 1110t1011 of Mr . WWII BREAD, an account of the P such a doctrine and who opposed it. He had no doubt but that the . .11, - , a I epees of the Stamp O ffi ce, and the quantity of --- t . o i c ietffor . Bills of Exchange and Promissory Notes, from mnps I S Right Honourable Gentlem a n who enforced the - up t iles, to January isio, was ordered to be laid before Standing Order was actuated by the most honourable 13: 0 House. RO MAN CATHOLIC PETITIOg. and conscientious motives—for he was persuaded that he could have been influenced by no suggestions General MA THEW rose to present a.Pedtion from the R.- . c•tolics of Tipperary, and stated, that although the Yeti- of Ministers, who must be desirous to give the utmost leal ,t many signatures annexed to it , yet it had the san cti on publicity to Inq ui ry . If the p ers on s chiefl y interested yn 80,0„, Catholic inhabitants of the county which he had the were not desirous that the public should be shut out larteo to re eat andunless t t a h len e s t u ‘ bj a e n ct d w w a h s o b b roug ad s h: l f o o n rwa ad rd . . from this Inquiry, what was the peculiar sacredness ly a Gen:lt:nail .o conspicuous a Roman Catholics , ' or by some other g more in it which should lead it to be enforced ? It was the located de rause of t he 0 .I,lx `' l i :n himself, he should feel himself bound to bring forward ge neral wish of the country that the proceedings of -- the ,„i.,ct before the first of May. He thought they should no : the House should be made known, and the persons rog er be treated as aliens in th e ir own country, but admitted to b- . a on whom that office devolved had proved themselves fa part icipation of all the privileges enjoyedby their fellr-su . worthy to be trusted with it. There was another They had a right to be put, t in the same Sitliatloll i4Z.hich they stood by the treaty of Limerick , as ratified by King . point og view in which he could spew the futility of Iripiato, but which was scandalously broken by a British Paha- ' the supposed sacredness orthis Standing Order of fez 1 the Parliamenteria" of the land, like those which forbid House. It formed no part of the grand as lex The Petition was then read, and ordered to lie on the table. Mr . GILES brought up a Bill to amend so much of th e 48th I King, as related to Stamps upon Bankers' Cheques.—Read minors, aliens, or Peers of the Realm, from taking : f* ee, and ordered for a second reading on Monday. , i their seats in that House. It involved no great con- 1 Mr. GILLS moved for a Return of the Counties in Eng and, n 5 • ututional question, but was' only to be considered as hkh the Local Militia had been raised by Ballot or Enrolment ; i I one of those points of form, which had grown obso. *Number embodied and exercised; the Number who received 'Vey for Voluntary Enlistment; the Numbet of Fines levied fete by long disuse, and might be dispensed with evadingly: the Enlistment from the Local Milita into the Me, without any derogation to the honour of the How?. M.:ices, or Regular Militia, 3cc. 8:c. which, after a few words If tht: Right Honourable Gentleman persisted •in e g a :gr. W M HITB READ and r. secretary Re DER, were ordered. -. it, _ NAVAL COURTS I.IItTIAL. . enforcing he should hold himself justifiable in 1 loot COCHRANE rose to move for the p roduction of Copiei moving for the enforcement of the whole of the al the Oath, administered to the Members, Witnesses, and Judge Standing Order, which was, that all stn :ricers found aavocate, upon Naval Courts Martial. His Lordship disclaimed in the Gallery of the House of Commons, should be w r y priy motives in this motion, or any motives originating with taken into custody. This was impracticable. There lama transaction of this nature, but was solely actuated by a sib to set ri g ht the misunderstanding upon this subject. H e were other Standing Orders equally inapplicable to b a lbeen a Member of numerous Courts Martial, where he had the present state of public business. One was, that =o pportunity of observing the evil conseqUences arisink from there should be no gaming in any of the avenues of e a taisconstrucion of the oath, and the want of those regulations the House, and the other, that the Members should esthe part of the Judge Advocate w hich were practised in Mili• meet for business at ten o'clock in the morning. tat Coups M artial so beneficially to the public service. He meant ' Is to move for a Committee, to consider the construction Any Member inclined to early rising might enforce ofthqed oohs, and in what manner they might be amended. that Order. The motion of the Right Honourable *F. BURDETT seconded the motion. Gentleman for the exclusion of strangers was not, in Mr. CROKF.R had but one objection to the motion, viz. that' I po of intfact, one of the Standing Orders of the doe documents were already before the House. T h e oa th s o f deMembers and .11tChTe iiir:r;r2”.. w orld be found in the Star.::'_' I House ; for, in point of fact, the Serjeant at Arms efi.;l.:lstu on the table an d th e oath of the witnesses in aback was bound to take into custody every person whom del the Naval Code; 'arid tiros, where such document. were 1 he found in the Gallery, or any of the avenues of the utessible, he could see no Parliamentary grounds lot the House, and to report them as prisoners to the House. 24411. Ira 50!Ile observations bj Mr. R. WARD, Sir F. Bu ft D ETT, Now, as it was perfectly clear, that the Serjeant at tilt enANCV.I.LOA of the Exclazgunni and Lord Fotxsr on e— Arms, assisted by the regular peace officers in duty lottlCoextaNx agreed to withdraw that part ot lois m otion re- about the House, was not equal to the task of taking I 1.1; to the oaths in the Statute Book, upon an understanding .two hundred or more persons into custody, it would 1 t!lt he should be at liberty to r t •ad them upon any motion he follow, that the only way of effectually enforcing the' n*liereafttr thin: necesaary. The other part of the motion leis t;ien ptlt and carried. Standing Order of the House, would be to turn the i 111GlIWAYS, PUr.f.tc noans , .•• ND STAGE conctiE.S. key upon the Gentlemen in the Gallery , and wait I Sir lOHN SINCLAIR, after a new preliminary observations, -until the Serjeant had raised a sufficient /mere tomitat us 1 °seabed leave to bring in Bills for amending and alteriug the to take them all into custody.—(A laug4.)—The law. res ? ettinTuntpike-roadi and Highways, and for limiting motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman, as it the number of outside parengert on stage coaches. A new writ was ordered for Richmond, in room of Mr. C. L. was made, night after night, he could regard in no DerND AS, deceased. other light than as a warning to the culprits to effect EXCLUS!OJ OF STRANGERS FROM THE GALLERY. their escape, which was almost as bad as to rescue Mr. SHERIDAN rose, in pursuance of his notice, 1 them after they had been actually taken into custody. to call the attention of the House to the consideration ;To argue seriously, however, he begged' leave to of one of its Standing Orders, which had lately been I state, that the Gallery could only be filled by Ho enforced in an unusual manner. He would not trouble i nourable Gentlemen themselves, and that if they the House at any great length, bit:, he could not help ; introduced improper pers - ins into it. they were them remarking in the outset, that some persons seemed to i selves responsible. After some observations on the ' consider the question which he had to agitate as one I Standing Orders of the House, to show the utter im of considerable delicacy, and one that could scarcely ! poss ibili t y of their being carried into elTect under the be touched upon. He did not regard it in this seri- i present circumstances, the Right Honour able Gen oa; point of view, but he considered it as a case which 1 tleman proceeded to state, that it was far from his came home to every man's bosom and feelings. Its I wish to trench upon the right which Members at bringing forward the present question he tvas influ- I present enjoyed of ordering the Gallery to be cleared enced by no party feelings, but solely by a desire to . —he was only anxious, that instead of its being, preserve the character of the House. He was utterly l as at present was the case, a matter of individual at a loss to know by what apprehensions the Right I privilege, the Member requiring the Gallery to he Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Yorke) was influenced, when ; cleared, should state his reasons why ; and, if it ap he called upon the Chair for the exclusion of strangers peared to the House that there was no fit occasion from the House. He should have thought, that, at 1 w h y strangers should withdraw, that it should be a crisis like the present, every thing would have been . left to the vote, and not be decided by the caprice of moitled which had a tendency to create disaffection an individual. He was led to make his Motion from h: irritation in the public mind. Last year when an a sincere w;sh that the House should acquire what investttion of the greatest delicacy waszoing for- they stood in great need of, and what they had of tend ; when the infirmities of high life were to be late been gaining, the favour and confidence of the discussed in the House, its doors were thrown open I people. There was no exclusion of strangers from in tli , ! public ; and the proceedings of the House were ! the House of Commons, when the Inquiry was given from day to ell- in the public prints, without I going into on the conduct of the King's Son—but ally injury to the Illustrious Personage then concerned. 1 when Inquiry was instituted into the conduct of his 111 the present case, he believed it was not the wish of 'Majesty's Ministers, then the case was reversed ; and inlet of the two Ex-Secretaries of State, or of the I the House was to deliberate wish closed doors. - Noble Personage more nearly concerned in the haves- What would the public think of this ?—The Right ration before the House, that it should be conducted Honourable Gentleman, after recapitulating his lead. etth closed doors. Upon what principle then was it ing arguments, concluded with moving, that the fat the Right Hon. Gentleman wished that during Committee of Privilege do meet to-morrow morning this momentous Inquiry the public should be debarred at ten o'clock, ot the Speaker's Chambers, to consider from theirusual sOurCeS of informationas towhat passed of the Standing Orders of the House, and more par. within the walls of that Howe ? Were the reports of ticularly of such as related to the exclusion of strangers, to proceedings of that House on the occasion to which and to report upon the same to the House. he had alluded misrepresented ? He was not aware Lord STANLEY seconded the Motion. that any such charge had ever been made against the Mr.WINDHAM said, he supposed it might create Gentlemen who conducted that department of the some surprise that he should, on the present occasion, Daily Newspapers ; on the contrary, that, considering speak and vote against the motion brought forward all.the difficulties under which they made their re- by his Hon Friend. This was, however, one of those ports, it was a matter of astonishment the accuracy . a cc idental matters in which he had always differed and precision with which those reports were given. in opinion with his Hon. Friend. His Hon. Friend It was highly creditable to the talents of the Gentle- had said he thought it a matter of importance ; he men who furnished the Newspaper reports of the pro- . for his own part confessed, he did not think it was. , ".dings of the House of Commons, that upon an oc- ; This would frequently be the case. The impoTtance casion like that, which excited so much of the public of the war -had never weighed sufficiently with his curiosity, all their several reports should have been found : Hon. Friend to bring him to the House in the various ; correct • and that whatever line of politics one questions concerning it, though this Standi% Order. Paper or another adopted, there was still but one sort had produced that effect. His Hon. Friend had of emulation between them, which should give the a lways been an advocate for the Liberty of the Press. 2tlc ' st faithful report to the public of what had actually He (Mr. Windham) was the same, but en other transpired within the walls of that House. It had . grounds; and what had been said by his Hon. Friend been said, that there was a danger that garbled state- on the. p r esent question, seemed to him to be ra ther meats would b e ma d e , b u z t his was never exemplified the matter of a thr ea t than an ar g ument. To allude tol durin g t h e Investigation into the Conduct of the Com- the enforcement of all other Standing Orders was a' mander i n Chi e f. If the Editors of the Newspapers threat, and not an. argument. This Standing Order . 114 called upon the Gentlemen whom they employed had - obtained and-been submitted to for a century,' HOUSE OF LORDS,FEBRUARY 6., CRONE V. PEIsIFOLD. Sir S• Rostit.i.c of dhSirRTIIO SiA %PLUM ZR we g heard at great ilo °4 th ' P3r o t of the e App ' ellant. on theilt 'lle LOn , and Mr. °Liar?, in re- C HANCELLOR, after many observations on the 1 hi . t, mov ed that the farther consideration of this cause which n e ' e en in gation since 1797, be postponed till Tuesda y next t . j,ea his Lord hip cd,n of the House.—Agreed. would propose the earliest possible day for the Mr. MIT FORD presented at the Bar sundry accounts from the T!,..:›tay. . The I:ORD CH ANCE I.LO R laid en the Table several Supple. ..,r,wy Pqrr s, of the production of w hich notice was y esterda y r, bf Marquis WELLEsmix.—Adjourned. ebH ur - 1 019' klf l sch' Inv lul . s tot. . ' Ito inconvenience had beige nltl ti 1 - With in the last thirty years. His" urable Friend, seemed to consider 'the right of admission of stran Vito the gallery as a part of the Constitution,whereas, l eis the contrary, it had been granted as a mere mat-1 'ter of favour. He would first ask, how much the Country had gained in its affairs since that practice had obtained ? He could not say in what respect the Country had gained any thing . Past times might be contrasted with the present ; but still, from the daily manner in which 'the debates were published, he wanted to know in what way he was to state the ad- vantages accruing to the Country. What was the I value to their Constituents of knowing what was pas sing in that House ? Supposing they should never know, it was only the difference between a Represen tative Government and a Democracy. Till within the last twenty or thirty years, it not only was not practised as now, but' it was not even permitted to publish the debates of that House. So lately as the time of Dr. Johnson, the debates were never publish. ed, but under fictitious names. He was one of those who liked the Constitution as it was : he did notlike it as it is. If this had been tolerated, it was no reason that it should, on all occasions, be continued ; and that persons should make a trade of what they ob tain from the galleries, among whom were to be found men of all descriptions : bankrupts, lottery office keepers, footmen, and decayed tradesmen. He bad heard those Proprietors of Papers had talked of :the injustice of close doors. This was taking up the Subject as if the admission of strangers into the gal lery was a privilege ; but it was no such thing ; and though he might perhaps think it useful after having s• - ) long prevailed, he did not allow it to be a privilege. Were thatalie case, we should come into a state of democracy—a state like that of Athens. He did not think accounts in the Daily Papers were so desirable as many others did. They had lately reviled Go vernment so far as to assert, that some of their co temporaries were in the pay of Government. What did this prove ? Not the value or actual importance of Newspapers; but it clearly shewed that if Go vernment could have them in their pay, then News papers were liable to be let for hirp---to be bought and sold—and the press, which has been thought in this country the palladium of its liberty, was always to be purchased by the highest bidder. He did not wish to establish such a power in the press as to ena :)le it to controul Parliament. He did not know any of the conductors of. the press ; but he understood them to he a set of men who would give into the cof rupt misrepte - iCilt :tiZZ t'f apposite sides • and he was, herefore, determined not to lend his hand to abrogate an order which was made to correct an abuse. He now saw that it led to consequences of a most mis chievous tendency—no less than to change the cha racter of a Representative Government into that of a Democracy ; and led directly to that despotism which had so lately desolated other countries. He did not like to part with a Standing Order, which, though it might have run to rust, would not in former times have led to any mischie f ; and he could see no reason why it should now be laid prostrate at the foot of the very Worshipful, but he would not say ancient Cor poration of London Printers. Those gentry had their favouritec. His Honourable Friend was esteemed and hailed by them as a general patron of the Lon don press. He thought the House ought to discard sort of 'disgraceful objection to its proceedings, and maintain those rules and orders which have so long prevailed. He would assert, that the rights of the House were now in danger of being lost from misuse. He would have the Order occasionally enforced, for the same reason that the gates of a park were some times shut up, to prevent the establishment ofd right of foot-way. It was like the 0. P.'s, who had set themselves up as the people of the country, and by a system of opposition and violence had compelled the Ifroprietors of the Theatre to give theM plays at :heir own price. In this way the Proprietors of News papers told them that the people must have a daily publication of the proceedings of that House at their breakfast : and in the name of the public, say, We nave that right, and have friends in the House that will support us in our claim. His Honourable Friend had said the character of the House was at stake ; according to which argument, all the Houses for the last 3(1 years had no character or ability at stake.— His Hon. Friend was now also most anxious for the characters of Ministers; he could not blame him for that ; but he (Mr. Windham) was anxious tor tne fame of this House, and could not see why they should hesitate in supporting a Standing Order, .which had the sanction of so many years in its favour. For these reasons he should certainly give his vote against the motion. Lord FOLKSTONE said, that he noted with the animadversions made by his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Windham) on the venal state of the Lon don press. He thought that venality very general and very gross. He further agreed with the same Gentleman in thinking, that the state of the country SO or 40 years ago was preferable to that in which it l at present was. But he was far from thinking that 1-that change was to be traced to the existing prac tice of publishing in the daily papers reports of the proceedings in that House. He thought that there were other, and far different, causes to which that was more justly attributable. The great increase of taxes—the long foreign wars—the establishment, to such a great degree, of standing armies—the no less remarkable increase of barracks throughout the coun try, were, he thought, among some of the principal causes that had led to a change so much to be la mented. With respect to the publication of their debates, he did not know; formerly he might have thought it productive of much inconvenience ; but now that it had been suffered to go on so long, he thought it was desirable thatthe publicity of their proceedings should experience no material interruption. He ad verted to the manner in which yesterday's debate had been conducted in that House upon a question for nominating a Committee, in an Inquiry so peculiarly interesting to the country. Gentlemen had spoken openly of a balance of opposite parties, and seemed disposed, to reproach all those who did not list under the banners of either. In short, the Whole question had been argued throughout with a reference to party feelings. This was a mode of proceeding, he was sorry to say, not peculiar to the debate of last night; but, though it was not, he never knew it carried to 5o indecent a length (if he might so speak) as upon that •occasion. In shot t, when he heard it thrown out, as a reproach against men, of whom perhaps he was one, that they were-connected with no party, he • • . eat& wit help chinking th at OW* Ike in the Constitntion, and that the clime!, the better.. He agreed, that representats* ~ of its own nature include in it the idea of . . H: wished them not only to be united in theory, but to be inseparable in fact; and yet it was but too notorious, that there were many persons who concurred in think ing not only that that House had not the confiden:e of the country, but that it did not desetve to hair that confidence. If, however, it was the wish of tai : House to recover it, he could not see that the most desirable way to do that was by shutting out the pub. lic from their proceedings, on a question the most in teresting to the public. Mr. WINDHAM in explanation said, that he d d net say that the 'change in the state of the county w .s to be ascribed solely to the publication of their d bates, and he did say that he was not aware of any material good consequences that had resulted from that practice. Mr. YORKE entered his protest against the pri-- ciple, that any Honourable Member was bound to give his reason for enforcing the Standing Order in the exclusion of strangers. Thus saving his owe opi nion upon that subject, he should now state frankly the reason that induced him to enforce that order in the present instance. It was to prevent the mistakes and gross misconceptions that had, in a former instal ce. taken place in the representations of the evidence given by the witnesses at the bar of the House, in the different London papers. Having stated this, he would re mind the House what it was that they were about to do, in entering into any such enquiry as that in which they had been recently engaged. It was no less than performing their great function as - the grand inquestof the nation, The Grand Jury of a county, which was the common inquest, never admitted strangers to be present during the time of their examining evidence.— • Howthencould itbethoughtan unwarraatableexercise of their undoubted privilege, to exercise it at a time when the House was employed in its inquisitorial functions. With regard to the misrepresentations (put ting aside all question as to wilfulness), could Gentle. men see nothing of inconvenience, of mischief in the effects of such inisrepresentntions, forwarded daily throughout the country ? He thought this a consi deration in itself of no ordinary importance. A Right Hon. Gentleman had asked, why they had not pro. seeded in the same manner in the course of a tnemo rable Inquiry last year? He (Mr. Yorke) said, that he regretted most sincerely they had not, and that for his to .k shame to himself, that he did not then enforce the Standing Order. He declared before GOD and his Country, that it . he had had a notion of the real nature of the case, or of the manner in which it afterwards turned out, he would-then, as he did in the present instance, have performed what he thought his public duty. He had now given his reasons f 4 enforcing the Standing Order, but he wished it to be distinctly understood, that it should be received as a matter of courtesy upon his part, and not as the dis charge of any duty imposed upon him by the regula tions of that House. The Standing Order in question was a most antient Order—their principle was co be found, perhaps, in the original constitution of that House. He solemnly deprecated any attempt to re scind them. He disapproved of altering them— under GOD, the maintenance of the Commonwealth was owing to the support of the privileges of that House ; the support of their privileges was essential to the support of their authority ; and, notwithstand ing what had fallen from a Noble Lord, he (Mr. York) thought the suppc.rt of the authority of that House essential to the maintenance of the Common. wealth.—( Hear, 'bar.) Lord FOLKSTONE, in explanation, said, that he had not lent himself at any one peyiod to any vulgar cry, nor had he said that any such influence ought to have weight with an honest Representative of the People - in discharging his duty to his constitnents.— But he well remembered when the Right Honourable Gentleman was in office, that that Right Honourable Gentleman and his colleagues urged, as an objecti to the opinions of certain Gentlemen, the unpopula rity of those opinions, when they were even threateuel with that unpopularity. Mr. YORKE professed himself incapable of even guessing at what the Noble Lord alluded to. H Tie (Mr. Yorke) any charge to prefer against that N ble Lord or any other person, he should do it op:il ly, and go through it steadily ; but as to threat: wino any Hon. Member, he hoped he knew too well what became the Gentleman, to do so. 'Lord FOLKSTONE rose, amidst a cry of g , Or . der ! Spoke 1" to state more particularly the circuits stances. At the time of the Peace of Amiens, and others who disapproved of that Peace were told of the great unpopularity of objecting to the measure. 1 Mr. YORKE did not remember the circumstance alluded to by the Noble LOrd. Mr. TIERNEY declared, that if he thought the motion of his Hon. Friend trenched in the slightest de gree upon the privileges of the Hanse,he would be the first man to oppose it.. But the nature of the motion had been utterly mistaken ; it went not to rescind the Standing Order, but to refer it the consideration of a Committee of Privileges. For his own part he was not himself aware that the Order could be amended ; but as - he supposed his Hon. Friend was prepared to state in the Committee his reasians for thinking that it might be amended, he would support the mo tion with thit view alone. With respect to' the en forcement of - the exclusion of Strangers, in the pre. sent instance, he could not see its wisdom. When had such a step been taken on such an occasion Not during the whole American war, when no ma ny Military Enquiries took place. He was at a loss to co;iceive what inconvenience could have arisen had the whole of the evidence taken before the Committee of Inquiry yesterday evening been published that morning. Had any misrepresentation occurred, he would have been the first to no:ice it to the House ; and if it had been deemed advisable, the futther publication of the proceedings might have been prohibited without excluding thepablic from the gallery. He allowed that the reporting of the debates in Parliament was attended with much inconvi n ence. He had experienced a great deal of this in his own case. But he wholly acquitted the reporte r s o f b lame. He acquitted them because it was evident that an ac curate account of the proceedings would- be rbe.b ee e calculated to sell the paper in which it was contain. ed, and an accurate account, therefore, h e did b elieve it was their honest wish to give. The public haslet. quired a kind of right to know what was passing in *at House, from the change whicb his 'Honourable - ~..