Star. — London, England, 1810-12-28 00:00:00

~Zyy was intended to propose was, tb make tliat comple: e by • the Great Seal which at present could not be made so. This was impossible. It reminded him of an expedient hit upon at a Westminster Election by a body of men, certainly tit it so enlightened as his Majesty's Ministers, he meant the Irish chairmen. These people finding themselves sometimes unpleasantly situated with re. gard to the police officers, applied to one of the Com mittees at the election, to know if there would'he any objection to their getting their poles painted like the • constables' staves, conceiving that they would then, in any quarrel, 64 have law on their side." -Tb4,•the Nobble Lord appeared to think, • that by the Atifering which he proposed to -the measure in agitation, he shoukt " have the law on his side." If their Lord howevc r, wished to lay a foundation for the future uturi)aticn by the two Houses of Parliaffient of the • royal authority, they could pot do. it better than by -assenting to the proposition of the 'Noble Lord. What liould the Commission purport to dk? . By the authority of the two nooses of Parliament to. open the Parliament, to hold the Parliament, and to stand in the place cif the' Crown. Admit such a principle, and it might be applied in future to every illegal act which a more encroaching Parliament than the pre sent-might wish to perform. What was the course recommended td%e pursued ? In the first place, to adopt a resolution, declaratory of the inefficiency of his Majesty at present, to exercise the Royal Functions. In the second place, to adopt a resolution that it was the right and duty of the two Houses of Parliament to provide for the deficiency thus occasioned. What fol lowed? To abandon. the right, and to forego the duty To abandon the right, by surrender ing it to others ; to forego the duty, by leaving the Country without a go vernor. All this, too, at a time when the events of a fortnight, or of a week, might demand to meet them, the united, powers of the Constitution—when a tern restuous sea was raging, on which the vessel of the State was doomed to plough an unsteady and uncertain course ! What would posterity say to this abandon. tent of , duty ? More especially what would they say when they found that the duty could have been so easily accomplished by the appointment to the dis charge of the executive functions of an Illustrious Personage, in whose merits all parties Concurred. It was fitting that the power should be exercised only by that individual. It was the essence as well as the letter of Monarchy to be the rule of one perion. The present was the fist time that he had heard of a Mo narchy being put into commission. With a full ton. viction :)f thg propriety of his Noble Friend's amend-, ment, he should certainly vote for it ; calculated as it was to make the Constitution whale, and to replace, it on the basis on which alone it could stand with security. • The Clerk again read the Resolution. Lord GR ENVILLE rose, after a considerable pause, and expensed his astonishment that the Noble Lord ( Eldon) who was the law-adviser of the measures now proposal, should not. have deemed it proper to delivered his opinions on the present discussion. 'though he was awareihat Noble Lords might choose their own time td deliver their sentiments;yet, horn the situation in.which that Noble Lord - pat ticularly 'stood; he must consider him as highly c.-usurabie in 1 •• having reflaitied froni stating the grounds on Which he had determined on ih2 course now recommended ' by . him and his colleagues in office. He (Lord Gren ville) did not rise to supply this deficiency, but he, rose in great diffieulty—in difficulty, because lie wasl .compelled to go against all his Noble Friends w lio had spoken on this side of the House. If he rose to de fend Ministers, that indeed would be a task beyond the power of any man living—if to say that they had acted consistently with their duty to the • nation, when, knowing the calamity that existed, they.had used language to delude the Parliament into a desertion of their duty, and to turn their backs on their Sovereign and their country ; if he rose tomaintain, with the No-, ble Earl ( Buckinghamshire) that protraction was me ritorious, no task could be so desperate as to convince the Parliament, the country, and Europe, that in the existing state of the world, that position could be de fended. It, as they were told, the world looked to Britain as the last bulwark of retreating liberty, and as the only country which yet maintained the appear ance of a struggle for independence, trusted to her as to her firmest reliance, what then could be more unde niable than that a day or a week of the absence of G wernment was one of. the greatest calamities that could 10041 the nation ? Therefore it was, that if he stosported toe motion of Ministers, he was not to be supposed to be in favour of their conduct, which be could ilk view without feeling the deepest indignation and re sentment. At a future time he should conceive it. to be his duty to call their Lordships' attention to the assumption of these arrogant then of the exercise of Regal power.— (Hear, Azar.) He would now state, • in :;newer to what a Noble Earl (Buckinghamshire) hate ells posed he would have done ir. aa situation simi lar t(i Ministers, the course. he Would have 'porsped. Zslekerithstandiug all the peratoisive eloquence of his NoiNke.Fekerds, he •was obliged to adhere to the opi nioiti be had formerly rnat9tanied. These opiniqns had beets aried in silence .and retirement, and were now agiiin brought to the test after no light investigation into the principles of .the British Constitution ; and this was briefly his septiment, " that the. proceeding by till w r.s.tar preferabletoproceeding by Address." —Toy this, weighing well the tatbarraisnratts on all, sides, he must: Adhere.. The questiontheir Lordships . bad this night to consider,was one of the utmost im portance ; a but yet the real point for their decision • lay in a very narrow compass. He mild not agree with those who thought that the Tiestion, whether entire kingly lame' s sh old or should not be given to the Regent, had any influence upon their decisions on the question before them. This subject would at • future period come under consideration, and with .it this night they had nothing to do. The deficiency in the Rvg.il functions might be supplied in two ways ...by bill or Address; and he would leave other to. pits out of the question, to direct his attention to these two modes, the adoption of one of which was of infi nite consequence to the Constitution and the country. )4;i .;*ers had suffered e.ght weeks to elapse, for which shay were deeply responsible ; and on allegations now Los n to be false, had prevailed on Parliament to con rent to the delays they proposed. He trusted obey Lad been themselves deceived ; but however that was, had they oat succeeded in procuring the adop- • • • • • 7. ~„ • . '; a . .• • • ,:•1 0, " such an act,, which juititicalioo was alwaysfounded on the necessity for it. The Noble Secretary of State b id contended, that the object of the Bill which it 4„,7 p !, 1) :T. "05 *yr.' ;44. ts: : tied their procrastinating course; ;bawd of being' now as it, were I.iyinit first stone for their pro ceedings, their Lordshipi . might at this moment. have been under a Government capable of discharg ' in: , all the duties' of royalty, and providing for the safety of their Country. It was yet in their power, if they proceeded like men anxious to perform the business t, which they applied themselves, and not to take a course pregnant' with delays—it was yet in their power to proceed as quickly by Bill as they. could by Address. For even by 'the Address move." by his Noble Friend, the seeds of future debate were sown, and must come to be the cause of delay in the passing of that Bill, without which a regular and efficient-Government could not be established. Much had been said on the subject of analogies ; but for his part he would not be so ungracious at (his late hour, to detain their Lordships with an - enumeration of pre cedents which had been again and again stated, and were familiar to their Minds. None of them boasted .of any' novelty; and he would, therefore, confine his observations to the only one which was adduced by a Noble Lord, and seemed to bear upon the question with more force than any other. This was the proce dure in. the reign of Henry VI. by which the'authority of Regent was substantially conferred by Parliament, and wtthobt the' consent of the Sing, then an infant in the cradle. In both cases, this precedent was in point ; but it must be observed, that in both a Com mission was made out giving authority to act for the King in Parliament. It was maintained to be a gross violation of the kingly power and of the first princi. pies of the Constitution, to forge the King's command and issue orders without his authority. If this were true, then the same principle applied to those Com missioners in the reign of Henry VI. and to any one who could be appointed to give the King's consent to the Bill consequent upon the Address. The King's consent, which it was necessary to . have, they could not obtain, and they were therefore reduced to the ne cessity of performing an act without it. But was the difficulty less in the one case than in the other ?—ln the one they gave the Assent themselves by the as sumption of the Great Seal—in the other they ap pointed a person to give it. In both, to follow the logic of hii Noble Friend (Lord Holland) who displayed to them what logical arguments an Oxford education could produce, they acted upon two legs, but the diffi culty was in the choice of the third. In the one, they called in the Great Seal—in the other the Re gent who derived his authority solely from them.— His Noble Friend might perhaps, recollect that there was another species of logic which was called- argu ing in a circle, and this latter mode appeared to him to be a strong example of it. On the other side, it was thought the Great Seal would sanction their proceedings, and ordered it to be put to their Act.— Passing by the precedent of Henry the Sixth, he would refer to the Revolution. He did conceive that there was no one point more strongly fixed on his mind than this historical fact, that at the Revolu tion, the Lords and Commons declared the throne vacant before they proceeded to act for the purpose of supplying that vacancy. They then addressed the of Or.w.ge, not to become Regent, but to •indert.tlse the management of affairs, civil and mi litai y. It was stated as a dubious question, whe. titer they called on him to take any share in the Legislature ; but this dubiety was removed by the words of ;be Address, which requested him to take the management " until further application is made by us e the Parliansedt then sitting. This proceeding was in direct contradiction to the mode of Address now proposed. At the Revolution they did not create a power co-ordinate with their own first, and then proceed to legislate. They gave the civil and military management, till the Lords and Com mon.; should otherwise provide for the deficiency in the Government; and the Prince of Orange, in con. sequence of this power intrusted to him, did not take any part in the Legislative authority. Indeed, the question was afterwards debated, whether he should be called to the Crown, or whether he should be ap pointed Regent, or whether another form of Govern ment should be established? The Lords and Commons first declared the Throne vacant ; and they did net use the Great Seal, for two reasons—because it was impos sible; and, because it would havebeen in direct contra diction to the principles on which they acted. It was impossible, not for the reason he had heard of, as assigned in another place—it was not on account of any river, or the absence of a mateiial that could be supplied by a silversmith—but it was im possible because this silversmith's work wanted the sanction of the King in Council, without which it was worth nothing. As James 11. had forfeited the. Crown, how could a Great Seal be constituted ? And even had a Seal been found by accident, it would have been most absurd to use his Seal to the Act declaring that he had forfeited the Crown.— But did the same difficulty now exist, when they were called on to provide for an exigency arising out of the King's malady ? No, their duty was diametrically and fundamentally contrary. They (at the It( v3lu tion) had to fill a vacant Throw ; but what was their duty at this moment ? The consideration of this point led him to a view of the Constitutional Law; on the subject. He knew no branch of the Admini stration of the La* bat what depended on this prin ciple, that, though the natural capacity of the King might fail, his politicarcapacity existed for ever with out interruption. On this principle it was, that writs in the King's Bench supposed that the Crown pre sided there in person. It was the same with re spect to his presence " here" in Parliament ; and in every part of the Law, the same doctrine inva riably prevailed, and nvas the foundation of most of rthe proceedings. The attributes by law applied to Majesty could be understood on no other grounds, for it applied to the Monarch's natural capacity, they were blasphemous. But with regard to his politi cal capacity, they were very easily to be reconciled to sense. Thus übiquity was an attribute of the King. Another attribute was, that the King could do no wrong. In fine, this principle pervaded the Consti. Union ; and a King, labouring under disability from infancy or mental malady, still in a political capacity must be held to reign over the country. This was no torious to every one ; and in both casesof Henry Vi. the authority of the King was expressly so stated. It Was on this principle that the state of things existed in this country. They could see no alteration in the Courtt of Justice at this moment, though, in their records they must see that the fountain of justice was sits . pended. Why was this, but because the political ca. pacify of the King continued to exist ? Because he • e ; , • ".•". teok argnment, he waltdd not be *might to be defending theses betrayers-- those who, in the absence of the natural capacituhad usurped the power of the Executive Authority, which was a most flagrant offence, before unheard of in the history of the country, and destructive of every prin ciple of the Constitution. But what he had advanced, in his opinion, proved, that no legal act could be done under - any other name than that of the King, whose , political capaiity continued, and that no such Act could otherwise be done by Minister, or even by the King's Son, the Heir Apparent to the Throne. It could not be done by him, because the Bill .must be confirmed by what was recognised by the Courts as an act of the reigning Monarch. His Lordship said, he did not think that these legal fictions merited all the obloquy thrown upon them. In every system of government—in all countries—in all codes —legal • fictions were found to be absolutely necessary ; civil law was full of them; and if ever they were departed from, arbitrary law, and decisions according to tem porary circumstances must usurp their place, and in troduce injustice, disorganization, and confusion.— They contained nothing intrinsically wrong. and did not deserve the censure applied to them.—The Noble Baron briefly recapitulated what he had advanced on this head. The act now called was the reverse of filling a vacancy, and every subject could know of no other course of law but the King who reigned.. Tho Regent was constituted by the Bill, not by the Ad dress ; and on his conscience, he believed a Bill in the first instance to be the best and most eligible mode of proceeding. He adhered rigidly to the case, and held that what necessity created necessity alone could limit. He would not detain the House, except-that his obser vations had hitherto been on the Sd Resolution, and he would wish to say something on the second, which, if they adopted, they would declare that it was their exclusive right and ditty to provide for the Executive.. When the Noble Earl (Stanhope) announced his in tention of moving something similar to the previous question, it had his perfect concurrence ; but unfor tunately the Noble Lord was diverted from that course. Twenty-two years had elapsed qiace he was seriously of opinion, that the measure should be car ried into effect by Lill. A doubt arose in the mind' of a great Statesn' an ( Mr. Pitt) although not eresst d by him, whether his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales was entitled to become the Regent? but the question was fully discussed and determined, that the Prince was_ ve , : -.I with the, right, although the Right Honourable Gentleman had disclaimed his intention of making , i; a matter of dispute. But in the present instance as assumed a new drape—net the rights of the Prince of Wales, but the assumed right of Ministers to the Royal Prerogative. It right de volved on any man, it must be on :lie Prince. If he voted for that Resolution, it would be to disclaim the rights set up by Ministers, and to declare that they had violated the Constitutiote The Noble Earl (Bucking. hamshire) had asked, would i, wt tend to great mis chief if doe army of Portugal was n t reinforced because the executive power was obliged to bi dispensed with ?' He would answer him, if he was a Minister, and the necessity occurred before the meeting of Parliament, he would take the respinsibilny s it . himself, althou g h he knew it would be illegal—but it that necessity oc curred one day after Parliament met, and he took upon himself the responsibility, he would consider that he had made an innovation on the Constitution which he could never repair, for it would be taking from the People and the Crown their Rights. As to the declaration of the Learned Lord (Camden), which had been so ably handled • in the course of the night, it came to a simple point : He declared that a great calamity had silenced the action of the Executive Government— but he did not inform them what form would be necessary to put it in re-action. —His complaint against the present Ministers was, that they created the necessity, and afterwards told I them they would come for a Bill- of Indemnity to cover their usurpation, not only in breach of the • Kingly Power, but that which tied the Constitution together. They had ventured to arrogate to them selves the custody and care pit his Majesty, even con trary to the feelings of the Royal Family.—(ifsar, hear.) They would give the Prince of Wales custody of every thing but that woich human nature must • dictate to him to be most careful ol. • and pay more. attention to, the person of his olajtsty - ( Hear, hear ) —What were the men that had made such a prop sition, as to remove the care of the Father from the Son ? He could see n:ithing in them.; yet he was told to look on them as the Sovereign Power, and that they ought to have charge of his person. The law of the land said contrary, for if an application was made to the Court of Chancery, it would be adjudged • that the nearest relative should have the care of the hinatit-- , -(llear, hear.) And with great satisfaction Ithey had bein told by the Noble Lo r d s oppos i te , t h at they would be responsible for every thing they had done or would do. He assured them they should be so ; that they should not, by a Bill of Indemnity, gained on Parliamentary influence, go unpuniabed.— They had assumed the command of the King's army —they have ordered reinforcements to the Continent : suppose they unwisely should f ail, they could not bring the Commander to an account for his comrnission.— The onset was illegal, they had not only infringed upon the prerogative of the Crown, but upon Parlia ment itself, for they had undertaken to contract with the whole distillery of the country, which con tract could only i be carried infoi execution by Par liament. It would not be attempted to be said it was a mere assurance, that they would use their influence in behalf of the distillers in Parliament, for that use ful set of men could not act without they were fully assured that they were acting legally ; this they must have had in positive terms from the men that asked their Lordships for the dominion wer one million and allialf of the King's revenue. (Hear, hoar,)--If their Lordships ever agreed to an act which would give them such power, they would deserve all the indig. nation the country could pour on them. ( Hear, hear.) The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that in the year 1788, he had the honour of a seat in the other House of Parliament, an d on t h e most mature reflec--' tion he supported the Resolutions which were so ably urged by the . Noble Earl of Liverpool as a precedent for them to form their present proceedings on. His Lordship took a general review of the arguments which had been so ably urged on both sides of the House, and said he was convinced that by Bill was the only legal mode ta proceed. He wished those dignified persons (the Royal Dukes) whose welfare be had so much at heart, would read the debates it, • 1 .,;(1 I irben Saws It. evacuated the throsstb; the c declared vacant, and the Great Seal in the bos tc i a l the ,Th a m es . ; b e would.tell them that when theme az 4nstwhtenhe the me was declared vacant, the , Great Seal wart as well th e as any where else ; for if it was not there, the p eq holding it being merely:l , a u e e s d erv ag a a n i departed, his occupation was . al.O lost. lie tlie s quoted the attainder Norfolk, of the 53d of Henry Eighth, who, notbeic2 in sound mind, or in conf us i on , a ff i xed the Seal ! t h e wrong part of the writ, which was declared afterwards by the Twelve Judges to be of no avail, a s , in fact, it was not executed by Henry VIII, but wicks his consent by one William Clark. It was necessary for Parliament to promptly supply the deficiency th at was in the Executive ; and the precedents of 1788, and 1789, was sufficient for them to ground th e i r proceedings on. Some allUsions had been made i s what he had stated oa the first night they had rneto a this calamitous occasion. He. would assure their ' Lordships that he had not advanced a syllable th at was r(bt justified by the report he heard front the phy. sicians, which was afterwards verified in their exatai. nation before the Privy Council. Lord ERSKINE said, that he had listened atteedvely to at the arguments that had been advanced by the Noble Secreta r y„, State, and also to those which had been urged by his Noble tru z i near him (Lord GrenviUe). In the justness of most of thepo s iii Gu laid down by his Noble Friend, he concurred.but in the inlet-ewes which had been deduced from those positions, he could not le readily concur. he case of the Duke of Norfolk's attairdee peered to his mind to admit of a very different construction froze that put on it by his Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack ; was considered as null and void, which proved that Seib red signets were nothing unless wheo affixed snediatelyor human.) ; by the Crown—unless the effect of the Royal sanction cinbe im parted to them. The question now was, how was that effe:t to he given ? Many precedents bad been cited by the Noble Lords opposite, but not one of them was a precedent to d i that which was proposed now to be done. [llse the Noble Lett finding himself unable to proored in consequence of a sudds bleeding from the nose, was obliged to sit down.l 'I he Earl of LAUDERDALE, after expressing his pat re. gret for the sudden ind:sposition of his Noble aid Learned Frier! (Lord Erskine), which deprived their Lordships of haute: tie question elucidated in a manner that was wholly the Noble Ldrds own, he entered fully Into the arguments that bad hen tatted on both side+ and concluded by saying be would vote for Lk Amendment. Lord REDESDALEsupported the meesure of proceeding by Lord HOLLAND spoke in expLnation, and asked the Earle Liverpool if it was his intention that, supposing thearscnotions were agreed to, whi.ther it was his intention to have the Report brought up to-morrow, for if it was, it was his (Lord Holland) intention to rnove,tol firma, the same amendment that he bid in the Committee, to give hint and other Nobk Laden tunny of entering a Protest apitist the measures peupeled 17 Ministers. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, the Report would be insight up at the usual hour of the House meeting to-morrow. Lord HOLLAND, across the table, asked Lord Liverpool, if four o'cl‘ek to-morrow would not be convenient t He was an swered In the affirmative. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE asked Mialsters if k was their intention to adjourn the House after to-mactow for Aare. cess, or to continue sitting ? ke Earl of LIVERPOOL replied, and said, that on Sam* the House would meet for the purpose of having a conferrice with the House of Commons. But he would that whet they did adjourn on Saturd a y, it should h e nattrilVeli et dneaday Their Loodships then divided in she Committee on the Amend. mut, when there appeared, Contents 74— Non - Contents, lO o, —MaimitY M. The Resolutions were then carried, and the Repoot was an dered to be received to-morrow, (this day.) Adjourned at Half past Throe o Clock to this day. LONDON. FRIDAY, DECEMBER 28. " WINDSOR CASTIM DICEMII3II 44 His Mmesrr has passed an indifferent night s and is mach the same as be was yesterday." " WINDSOR CASTLE, ORO. 28. " Hit MAJESTY has been-rather better through* • last twenty-four hours. (Signed) t 44 H. R. REY,KILDR, W. BREEREIErs 44 HENRY HALPoRD, R. WILLIS." The Nocton packet which brought the Cadiz maii, reached Caws:lnd on Monday night, and owing to the *heavy gales she had no communication with Fira mouth till Wednesday morning, but the mail was landed and forwarded the night of her arrival. She was 12 days on her pais-le—and when she left Cadis it was currently reported that the Toulon Fleet said put to sea, in cons...-queoce of which one or vao of the line of battle ships that were about to depart for England were detained ; and should the enemy push for Cadisi they will meet with a warm reception, where they're perfectly ready to receive them. ScnAsriam, with his division, consisting delimit 10,000 men, had arrived before Cadiz a few days before the packet lett, which made the enerny'sfortt there and in the nrighbourhood, to amours: to nearly 30,000. They %;cre actively employed in throwing up works ; but the only apprehension appears to be, from a debarkation on the isle de Leon, as the enemy were collecting a flotilla of gun-boats and ova small craft, for that purpose, part of which 11 4 had brought near land ; but would not be alas to get a sufficient number to make any serious im• pression for two or three months to come. Gen. BLAKII arrived at Cadiz by water, a few days before the picket left, to fill his appointment nifs" sident of the Regency. An Expedition, composed of small craft, had at tempted to destroy several French gun-boats which remained . at St. Mary's. The Expedi t i o n consisted chiefly of British, who succeeded in driving three the gun-boats on shore, and in destroyinf them ; bu t in this service, we regret to say, two British Officers lost their lives, at well as several seamen. lliegate* of Cadiz were ordered to be shut by the Cow .b° had also resolved that eve" person capable of kw' ing arms should learn tile military exercise, and b e liable to be called upon at any period to do such litary duty in the town as circumstances might regnig• Left at Cadiz-441e ANN Padget, Captain 131ortow• • Piseingers by the Name, Mr. mid hite.Wstrwooo cod Nl' Cacao. " CADIZ, DICtM3ER it. " Very setistactery sews have Ikea received fruits the vise• of Granada. An *lemmatise shear sr maw Ms Pha plan there spins sbo Meek, who *caw thin province w i ll 4 torus d 13, 0 00 owskood who hate aim shags . in Mais:,a. AMOTHIR UrITER. SAME DATE. " The enemy bee been Ling epos its Orin some er the test• series coestructed epee beats, labia time earmd ittod i n " St. Lucite to the dyer St. Peter. Platforms woe tarn! rpm them. %Audi belststetisid abe batteries sourish fret, sad lry tog woo they have eseterded In theorems their 114 ir"'", ll 7 i ; gorda tom the very ditches of CUM& In Cenlel":"" tab sudden attack the gata of ibis p in es were of arr. .1 to be bee shut, and nu prison is pereseted to pass but on I.usit.e 4 .. 14 Orhastiant is arrivirJ .1 Aigrettes with 4.oo4____ten• •••••• I.ON in)" enrfed a.tJ ~übbsisid by i .r.% t.l. K 1 .• ST•a•Orrisse, Teniftps &id 1/.. 1, Carrwoll• Ibex, !~,~ Wl' se;1) at t 1 eso Cal atir I.tik: Oi Ai file Gc T v. 10