Star. — London, England, 1831-06-25 00:00:00

ah he rer to nt or e. Esc Leh dds for our far Mr ud. lona lei. w•s bd. ted. Jai- !An lice mit dam Wl* of Rutland. in point of fact and effect, obtained the power of retureing the representatives for that borough, and the cense qt:e:•ce was, thr.t the noble duke sent two members for it to that house, one of whom Awes a gentleman from Ireland, and the other a noble lord connected With the county of Cam bridge. And here, in mentioning the country of one of those Members, he could not avoid noticing the 'legumes' which had been urged against them In the last Parliament s tl:at they were about to destroy the representation of England; (Loud cries " Hear, hear.") The new Members of the present Parliament would perhaps scarcely believe it to by a fact, but a fact it was, that His Majesty's Ministers had bests • charged, in the last, Parliament, pith the intention and view of endeavouring to diminish the Eng!ish representation, and to rob Erigland of her due proportion of memb e r s . N o w that .the contrary would be the effect of the bill proposed by his Majesty's ministers, would be plain from a moment's caa .i.tleration. For whereas at present, under the existing system .certain individuals of great property, and possessed of in. IBtience in certain boroughs, had the power of returning as :member. for them, gentlemen from Ireland, or Scotland, .she t.Vest Indies, the East Indies, or any other place they ;Iteri f ied, the obvious effect of the measure proposed by Otis Majesty's ministers would be to restore the 'power of zhoosing their representatives to those towns front which it had been taken, who had enjoyed that privilege during the course of centuries, and of which they had been cleptived only within the last fifty or sixty years. Now that might not be a very wise thing to do t but to say thet it was robbing England of her fair share and proportion of representation was, of all pretences, the moat unfound ed assertion that had ever been made in the Parliament of this country. (Cheers.) Ile. had observed, by the way, that an argument ,of • somewhat similar kind bed been single use of by an hon. baronet in a pamphlet which he bad publiebed on this subject. That bon. baronet asserted that the effect of the measure would he, to deprive the small country gentlemen of the influence which they had hitherto possessed in the representation, and to throw the whole influ ence and power of sending members to parliament into the bands of the great landed proprietors, and the persons con nected with trade and manufactures. Now he must say, that in making such an assertion as that, the hon. baronet bad only proved that he was entirely and completely Ignorant of I the past history, and of the present times and circumstances, of this country. If that bun. baronet would take the pain, of looking into the returns which had been made to Patna. menu, he would find that during a long course of years in the history of the various small boroughs, they had been accus tomed to send small country gentlemen and other persons' connected with them, as their representatives to parliament, and that the cessation of that practice had been one of the degrading effects of the changes which had taken place of, late years in the constituency and representation of those, small boroughs. (Hear, heAr.) It was plain, therefore, that whatever might he the faults or errors of the reform measure, the last that could be fairly imputed to it was any tendency to diminish the fair influence of country gen.l denten in the neighbourhood of boroughs and towns sending members to parliament. He should state to the house another instance iu proof of the diminution which had been effected in the constituency of various boroughs and towns. The electors of Plymouth, in 1696, amounted to 200; they subsequently increased, be believed, to about 500, but they were not now near so many. The number •f electors in Portsmouth, which bad been a century ago 400, had been diminished to 59. He could mention various instances of other places in which the constituency was much larger a century ago than it was at present. It ap peared, therefore, that while those towns themselves be. came enlarged—while their population was augmented,— while their trade and wealth had been increased, - -and while, in short, they were in continual progress towards prosperity and augmentation, their most valuable corpo rate rights and privileges, connected with the return of representatives to Parliament, had been lessened, and their constituent body bad sustained a considerable di minution. (Hear.) So that, in fact, while in those bo. roughs and towns a great increase had taken place of those who ought to be electors, an actual diminution had occurred in the number of those who were electors there. These changes and corruptions, throwing as they did the power of returning a number of the members of that house into the hands of a very few individuals, could not escape the ob. servation of the public. The consequence was, that the ne. ceselty of a reform in the Commons House of Parliament at length attracted the attention of the country; and now fee nearly fifty years the debates upon that important question had been carried on with more or less animation, exciting more or less attention both in that house and out of it. In the course of that contest several great men had taken part in it on one side or the other. The part of reform was advocated by the great and vigorous mind of Chatham, by the manly un derstanding of Fox, and by the talents of Mr. Pitt, not in his boyhood, but after he had been six years prime minister of this great country. He then declared, that he was still of opinion that if the French revolution was not then raging, it would be desirable to make such alterations in the re presentative system of this country, as might have the ef fect of securing and permanently establishing the rights and liberties of the people of this empire. Against reform theca appeared the name of Mr. Burke, who brought all hie classic and commanding language to that cause. After him we had, on the same side of the question, Mr. Canning, whom tve bad so recently to deplore, and who, he (Lord J. Russell) was sure, had for some time delayed that con summation, which would otherwise have arisen. He was bored to add, that hit. Pitt, at a later period of his life, denied that we wasted that change in the representative system which he declared, in 1794, it would be useful, de. sirable, and fit to introduce. (Hear.) He should not proceed further into the long details connected with the history of this question. He thought he might fairly say that, as it was usual in this country to allow a question to be a long time under discussion before a final decision was come to upon it, be repeated be thought that he might fairly say that SO years constituted a sufficieutly long pro bationary period for that purpose, and flow that Ms Ma jesty had called them together for the express object, the question of reform appeared to him (Lord John Russell) prepared and ripe for final determination, and they might enter upon the consideration of it without the imputation of having undertaken it rashly or unadvisedly, or abasing approached its decision without the exercise of all that cau tion and deliberation which charactererized parliamentary and political discussions. But though reform in the repre sentation of the people bad been so many years discussed in this country, without any progress having been made in it, the same could not be said of the representation in the two sister kingdoms, Scotland and Ireland. With regard to them there had been no respect for vested rights—no such religious horror touching the right of boroughmongers to return members to Parliament, which had been manifested in England. With regard to Scotland, they had the high authority of Lord Somers,for sweeping together the knights, citisena, and burgesses of Scotland, and reducing them to 45, which was one-third less than the original number of the representatives of that country. And here he would beg to be allowed to say one word with regard to Lord Somers. His was a name which the admirers of an. tiquity were 'in the habit of quoting as a great authority on their side, though, during the course of his life, from rest to last, he had been the advocate and the supporter of several great changes. He commenced his political life by publishing what he called a just vindication of Parliament,—of that Parliament which had pronounced the exclusion of the next heir from the throne. His next act was to assist in dismissing one King from the throne,and in bringing in another. 1 his next act was to call the HOMO ef Hanover to the throne of these realms; and the other act, for which be was most distinguished, was the unless ' with Scotland, which parcelled out and divided the repass sentation of that kingdom. Whatever, therefore, might be said by Lotel Somers, he could not be quoted but as a fries' to innovation, and as a man who, when circumstances is. quired that a change should be made, was always ready to effect it where its introduction was calculated to est& blish more permanently and securely the rights and liberties of the people of this country.—(Hear, bear.) The Scottish union could not be said to be a slight change. He held is kis band a protest which had been entered on the journals of the House of Lords against it by certain peers at the time of its accomplishment, and they appeared to view it as a very serious matter indeed. They protested against the all of union with Scotland on the following grounds Ba cause the constitution of this ►ingdom has been so very en. cellent, and therefore justly applauded by all our neighbours for so many ages, that we cannot conceive it prudent its. change It, and to venture at all those alterations made by this bill, some of them especially being of such a nature that, as the Inconvenience and danger of them (in our hum; bit opinion) is already but ton obvious, some think le more proper and decent to avoid entering further into the particelar apprehension we have from the pawing of this law." The protest, couched in this language, bad auached to it the names of Beaufort, Buckinghun, and &owe% (Hear, bear.) Was Lorei Somers deterred from his purpose by this proles:? IX4 be go hack from the project which he had undertaken of effecting an union between the two countries because thine peers had deno.nced it as a danger• nus change? Quite the contrary—be peravered In dfecting his purpose; and in a speech which be left behiud bi:n, he completely answered the objections which bad been raised in this protest to the plat of the union. As to the first objec tion, " That too sudden alterations are dangerous," he says, " this is certainly true, unless where the most manifest danger arises from the delay Itself." (Loud cheers.) Let gentlemen now, if they liked, quote Lord Somers as an authority against change and against reform. Adopting his sentiments, be (Lord J. Russell) would say that greater danger arose from delaying reform than from adopting that me . (Hear.) He would call upon the house not to be influenced by any fears touching the constitution when reform was . propoled, and not to be frightened by those alarmists who spoke of its . destruction. A reference to the history of the country would show that every change had been met and opposed by similar expedients, that similar fears had been excit e d, and si m il ar a l arms had been propa gated ; and that they had hien, as certainly as they had been put forth, as certainly disappointed in the course of some 10 years, after the changes in question had been ef fected, and that the constitution which was to be destroyed and abolished, bad actually derived fresh force and vigour from those very changes which the ignorant worshippers of antiquity bad predicted as its destruction. (Loud cheers.) Such was the change which had been made to Scotland.— The Scotch politicians at the time wanted to get a cer- Jain number of reptesentativa, and they complained of the inequality of the representation as compared with that of England. It was answered to them that Scotland should have 45 representatives, and in that practical and sensible manner (cheers and laughter from the Opposition) that great question with regard to the representation in Scotland was settled by the greatest men of that time. Let them now turn for a moment and see what had been done with regard to the representation of Ireland. With whom did the great change which had been made in the represttttation of Ire land originate? Had it been effected by some audacious Whig, or was it the work of some radical, anxious to de stroy the Monarchy and the Ilouse of Lords? No such thing--the measure of reform in Ireland, which parcelled out and destroyed a number of boroughs, was a work effected by the band of Mr. Pitt. the memory of whom certain gentlemen were in the habit of meeting to celebrate (Hear, hear), and whose name had been very strangely em -1 ployed a a spell and a talisman to oppose the progress of reform (Loud cheers.) That was a change which was made not many years ago; but there was another change in the representation of Ireland, which had taken place still more recently, and to which lie (Lord J. Russell) had referred when he brought forward this question before the last Par liament. He said at that time, that if they talked about vest f ed rights, the 40.. freeholders of Ireland had as much claim ! to their privileges of which they had been deprived, on the ground of vested rights, as had Beeralaton or Clacton ' or any of those boroughs which they were told to reverence. To that statement he had never since heard a satisfactory answer. True it was, that the right hon. gentleman opposite had very fairly said, " make out a case for destroying the franchises of I those boroughs as clear as the case which I think was made out for taking away the franchise from the 40a. freeholders, and I will consent to do so." But that was not a satisfactory answer to the argument which he (Lord J. Russell) had put forward, as derived from the disfranchisement of the Irish 40s. freeholders. What were the reasons and the grounds on which the house had been called upon to disfranchise the 40s. freeholders ? Was it not, in the first instance, because they were so dependent on their landlords that they could Lot ex ercise a free choice in electing their representatives ?—be cause they were driven up to the poll? (hear, hear, hear,) —because they wet: carried up in crowds by the agent of the estate to vote, without knowing whom they were to vote fur, or why they exercised their franchise ?—and there. fore it was said, that that sacred trust should not be left in such improper hands ? Now he (Lord J. R.) would main tain, that the voters in • nomination borough were as Com pletely dependent upon the beck of the proprietor, as were the 40s. freeholders upon the will of their landlords. Another reason had been assigned at the time for their disfranchise. went—namely, that they were men so ignorant as to be acted upon by their priests, and that they were carried by them in crowds to vote, thinking that their salvation depended upon their giving a vote for a particular man. It was said that either their dependence on their landlords, which de prived them of free-will, or their dependence on their priests, which prevented them from exercising their judgments, was sufficient to disemide them to the franchise. Now he (Lord John Russell) would ask, whether. In the boroughs which were contained in the schedules A and B, there was not a similar dependence on the parr of the voters on the will of the proprietor ? He would assert, that the fact was, that in those boroughs the electors were either under the direct influence and absolute dominion of some individual who pro posed the representative whom they were to choose, or they were what they would call themselves independent electors, who were always ready to vote for a particular candidate, on the condition of receiving a bribe • thus violating the laws of parliament, and committing an o ffence for which they could be severely punished in the courts below, and foe which they would be called to the bar of that house. With regard to those boroughs which had been convicted of gross corrup tion, and the electors in which, like the 40s. freeholders, could not exercise a free choice in selecting their representatives they propose to disfranchise altogether the smaller : and closer ones, and to purify the others in order to restore our representative system to what it ought to be according to the words, the letter, the spirit, and what be hoped before long would be the practice, of the constitution. (Cheers.) He would now proceed to consider what was generally the pre sent state of our representation. It might be described In a very few words. It consisted, in the first place, of all those boroughs which returned members to Parliament at the will of individuals. Nine peers possessed 52 of those boroughs, returning 64 members. These were boroughs where the num ber of voters was small, but where they disposed of their votes as they pleased. (Mar.) There were some other boroughs and towns where there was freedom of election, and some counties where the elections were free and open, but where the expense of a contest was so great and heavy as to deter many from contesting them, and to nearly ruio those who did so. He would only beg gentlemen to recollect the gene ral election in 1026. They might remember on that occa sion the occurrence of cases of every kind of bribery and corruption—the treating in large masses merewho were several days after brought up drunk to the poU to vote for the candi date who had given them five guinea; more than the one who was opposed to him, eltogether the display of most disgusting scenes of every description. He confidently trusted that we should not again witness the recurrence of such scenes. Not the least consideration attached to this matte? was that which regarded the utter recklessness of principle mani fested by those persons who were ready to give their votes only for those candidates who would come up to their pike. He could not bring himself to think that such a state of the representation as that was a fit one for such a great and en lightened country as this ; but that, on the contrary, it was shocking to behold a majority of the members of that House, returned there by only a few indi. dividuals. But, shocked as he was at that, he was still more shocked that our elections should furnish occasion for the exercise of every species of perjury, drunkenness, and corruption. (Hear, hear.) Looking at the matter in the light of policy and wisdom, be would say that be was shocked to behold in several places of great wealth and in telligence, and with a numerous populaion, a vast num her of the people who were fully qualified for the exer. vise of the elective franchise, possessed of no influence whatever in the election of their representatives. (Hear.) Now His Majesty's Ministers proposed to alter that system, and they proposed to introduce in its stead a better system of representation, altering as little as possible the system which at present existed. (A laugh from the opposition.) They proposed to place the elections far counties, cities, and btoihe, upon the true and proper constitutional basis. A ccording to their scheme, about 150 members would be sent from the counties, the gr:at majority of which counties would be separated into two divisions, thus affording a large population to each division, and presenting many advantages to the people in the exercise of their elective rights. He was aware that some persons hid imagined that the proposed divisions of the counties, so far from being advantageous to the extension of popular rights, or popular influence, would have the effect of giv. ing to a small number of persons in those districts the means of carrying every thin _Now, that such would pot be th e effect, might be gathered from the fact that those counties which it was proposed to etat into divisions, pos sessed an average population of from 70,000 to 10,1.00 persons. The Dent change mantling to their scheme would bring perhaps 120 member, from the great cities, and somas, not *mink, such towns as Menchater e Leeds, .mud She& field, whkit were eldgdsti frosts present system, of, reviv e saltation. Thew propelled' to slit eneigiers to the rea towns, and to tke great mantilllettirlng • diatilete. . They would give FfPriWatllti v es Vr.°l4”PoelloPc, to. the cotton tpanntactikre , to tip „awl .cop t l y tiltictro, 'the potteries, mato all these • Ih as with Which ;trade, industry, and wealth were ednitested.' minty% . government were impressed with the principle that those greet Interests should have their own representatives In parliament, who would be enabled to watch over and to protect them. He would ask when, after that great change had been effected, they would have, for inctanee, a deputation coming from Leeds to consult his noble friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, respecting any proposed change in the laws relating to trade and manufactures? There would be no necessity for deputations of that de scription. They would have their members in that hour, who would be fully acqnsinted with their interests, apd who would be ready, from their seats there, to esplain what the interests of trade and the interests of the coun cil` in general demanded on the subject. Thus by ca-rylitg that plan of reform into effect, they woold obtain a number of Members Into that House who might not per. haps amuse them with declamatory and eloquent speeches, but who would be capable of rendering practical and sebum- Oa' service to the country, and to their constituents who sent them to Parliament. He had now stated the repre. seotation which their plan would afford to the landmi, trading, sod manufacturing interests. But, according to the system of representation as they proposed to establish it, there was another class the introduction of which some persons might be disposed to consider as a blot upon their system, but the introduction of which he thought would add materially to the stability and welfare of the country. He alluded to a certain number of boroughs and towns, with an average prom] ttitm of 4,000. 5,000, or 6,004, which would send abnut one hundred 'ltemisers to parliament. —The members likely to he returned from sue,)l places would not be sent to Parliament to represent any particular Interest, but would vote and speak in behalf of thp general interests of e.e country. (Hear. especially frier the opposition benches.) It had been suggested. that they should disfranchise all the boroughs. and give more represep. tatives to the counties and the large towns to represent the commercial sad manufacturing interests. But, after Prrssid* ing, as be conceived they had amply provided, for the repre sentation of those interests, there still was something wane ing. It was plain that there was a number of persons woke could not be described as belonging to any of those interest}, but who were worthy to enter the walls of that house, mot who were able to deliver their opinions there with advantage to the country at large. It was to enable such men to get into Parliament that theme boroughs would be retained. But when he spoke of members of this description, he did not at ell mean to convey that they should be returned by means of nom nation. He meant that by a fair and free electioo persona of this kind, obtaining the suffrages of the electois of' those boroughs, who would be a much larger body chap they were now, should find their way to that house.-.- The house should bear in mind, that under the plan pro posed by his Majesty's ministers. the coned. ueney in thosp boroughs which would be retained would be placed upon o much more extended bails than it was at present. They would increase the general body of the constituency in thp following manner. In the first instance they proposed, he had before explained, to give the right of voting to 101- heuseholders in cities and town ; and in counties they pro pns.d to extend it to freeholders, copyholders, and leaero holders. They proposed to extend the right of voting in counties to those persons who were leaseholders for a long term of years, thus rectifying an omission in the former bill; and they proposed that instead of the term of 14 years, the term of 7 years should be sufficient for leaseholders paying a rent of 501. a-year to entitle them to vote. Such would be the constituency which would send members from the coon. ties. With regard to towns, as he had already stated, the suf frage would be vested in h ouseholders and houses of the vs. luc or rent of 101. a-year. There was nothing extraordinary in granting this right to householders—it was in perfect accordance with the true spirit of the constitution. During the last half century, householders were not to be looked upon in the same light u householders in the reign of .Lmes I. He was of opinion that, according to the spirit of the ancient constitution of this country, and the well. known resolution of the House of Commons in the reign of James I. householders of 101. a-year were fully en, tided to the elective franchise In cities and boroughs. He did not expect that bribery to any extent could prevail under the operation of such a system as that proposed-- it would be effectually prevented by the regulations re. spieling the votes. The provision for having the poll taken in two days, coupled with the other provisions which would be inserted in the bill, would tend in a considerable degree to prevent the occurrence of those disgraceful scenes which they so often witnessed at elections at present. as well as to prevent bribery. On that subject be begged to say, that though he did not count much upon the occur. renee of bribery under the new order of things, yet that in order to prevent effectually those scenes of bribery which so usually took place at present at elections. he felt it his duty if he could to go further in the way of precaution ; and he bad to state that the attention of his Majesty's Go vernment had been seriously directed to the laws on the eta, two book for preventing bribery and treating in the election of members to serve in Parliament. Though they had not as yet matured the provisions which it was their intention to propose, he (Lord .1. Russell) touted that in the course of the present Session, he should be enabled to present a bill to the house, tending to make the law more effectual in pre venting and punishing bribery and corruption. (Hear.) — Those who were acquainted with the house as it at present was constituted, must be aware that the very nature of that constitution stood in the way of, and tended to prevent, the infliction of proper punishment on those who lad been guilty of bribery and corruption. The argument which was usually employed in such instances, and which had never been put so strongly as by Mr. Fox. was to this effect—" Will you punish the poor labourer who scarcely earns 10s. a week for taking a bribe of ten guineas, when you have in your neighbourhood—on the seats around you—members who. upon a large scale, have either received or given sevual thousands of pounds in the way of bribery T' That ugu meat, he was convinced, had in a great degree prevented the infliction of punishment on those who were convicted of bribery. But such would not be the case under the system of representation which his Majesty's Government proposed to establish. When that system was In operation reformers of every kind and degree would be found uniting cordially in punishing those who should he found guilty of bribery. He was well aware that there were those in that house who were of opinion that it was in that way reform ought to be carried on—that delinquent boroughs, when convicted of bribery and corruption, should be disfranchised; and he knew that there were persons who thought that such a Reform would be sufficient to satisfy the people. He had seen a declaration, published, to which was attached the name of the noble lord who had stood forward as a reformer in one of the northern counties, and who recommended a Reform of that nature, alleging that convicted boroughs should alone be disfranchised. In reply, be (Lord J. Rau -1 sell) would ask whether they should allow those boroughs to continue to send members to Parliament who, though they did not vote exactly for money, had made a traffic of their seats, and, for considerations which were not Com putable in pounds, shakings ' and pence, bad made the representation in that house what it ought not to be,—a matter of mere barter and exchange 1 (Cheers.) lie would take this opportunity to answer a few objections, and they were but few, which had been started ha va rious places in the country, and in various writings, to the proposed plan of reform. The first objection, and the mod general one was, that it was a plan tar more ex. geodes than it was either necetsaary of useful that it should be. The only answer which he could make to that objet. don was, that it was only on the conviction that it was the only plan that would satisfy the expectations of the people that His Majesty's Ministers bad proposed it. It was to be recollected that those who introduced it were not pledged previously to propose of defend any particular mea sure of reform so extensive as that which bad been bronght forward. Neither Lord Grey, nor the Lord Chancellor, nor any other member of the cabiuct, who formerly advo- cated reform, had ever expressed themselv s in favour of a reform so extensive es this was. He thought it but fair to state this in order to show, that being.pound by no promise or pledge, and having i te opportunity of, doing less than they ,had proposed, n, proposing wbst they did was a proof of gee ,conviction on their minds that it was ab solkely t eecessary to introduce so extensive a 'meanie id,oeder se , estisfy the . just 'Execute°. of the people, and, t o s os ;be rowioatioci of . s reform of that house, which would secure the permanent stability of the . throne, and preserve the authority of both Houses of Parliament. (Loud cheers.) He might have said at other time', tains a member from each of these be roughs, and Kiting them to large towns would satisfy. 'the people ; but he was, nqw well convinced that if a plan less extensive than the present wets proposed it woald not be, like the present otie,:calculated to be pctenanent mad lasting. (loud cheering.) Without such a plea as this, while they would imagine that they would be establishing a.psrotansse, retain,: they . would he salt *yin the ground opts fee ka1441111. 1 **14 L l o44ol,Mis tr . 11 1*- 0P - poi:Aim, reAchea frim an tiniPOW, l 9l l anti PPS , ' Ing the country torliecu s as to tnewoettarivi god NOW? sum of refeem;:usid that at a tinae.whea the .affaisa of this country could ill bar it, while they would have lost the op portunity of satisfying the people. (Hear, hear.) Is propos ing such a measure as this he was aware •hat his Majesty's ministers had made themselves the objects of obloquy and abuse, but they derived satisfaction from the conviction, that If it was once carried, Parl'arnent would then apply itself to the 1 pressing interests of the country, with cut being afraid that the people would not regard them as mindful of their Interests. —( Hear, bear.) The Inequality of the plan had been made a matter of objection to it; and it was asked, why give to Tavistock and Knaresborough as many representatives as such populous towns as Ha- Mat and Bradford? But Inconsistencies of this kind could not be justly considered grievances. Wherever a practical evil was pointed out which called for redress, a remedy was applied to it; but they trusted that they should be able to defend this want of uniformity in the plan against those who attacked it. Did those who raised such an objection propose it with a view that the plan should be made more equal? It would be curious enough if they did, seeing that they were the defenders of the existing system. It might be some inequality that favistock with 4,000 or 5,0e0 inhabitants should send as many members as Halifax with 20,000 inhabitants, hut was it not worse that such places as (Litton and Old Sarum should send as many members as many of the most pope. lois places ? They got rid of that anomaly ; and their plan of representation. if not quite regular, was far more so than the existing system. He supposed that all those who raised this objection were reformers of some sort or other. If so, they lost the benefit of the argument put forward by the anti-reformers as to the good effects of the irregularity and anomaly of she present system. " Irregularity and anomaly I confess to exist, but I would .leave them as I found them." That was Mr. Canning's argument, and a strong one it was in his mouth. Bet the strong ground thus taken by Mr. Canning and the Duke of Wellington was abandoned by their less skilful successors, who railed against irregularity and anomaly, while they were the defenders of a system which was filled with both. (Hear.) He would confess, that when be saw them take this line of conduct, he was disposed to say, like Oliver Cromwell upon seeing the Scotch army descend from the hills into the plains, " The LORD has delivered them into my hands." (Cheers.) Besides the defect of nut having made a perfectly symmetrical plan of reform, he was charged with having taken an unfair basis,—with having endeavoured by such an unfair means to promote the views and objects of private interests, and to benefit particular individuals. His answer to these charges was, that he took the original plan or measure from a very well known statistical book, in which, however, were to be found some local errors and many doubts. Gentlemen had since said that he was strangely inconsistent in taking population as the basis. instead of being guided by the num ber of 101. houses. He would call the attention of the house to what would have been the result if he had adopted the plan of these gentlemen. He had not adopted it, because It would have involved an unfairness and an inequality in the manner of ascertaing the number of these houses. Errors bad been suspected or anticipated in the returns, and his an ticipations had proved correct. The mode that had been adopted was to write letters to certain authorities, to refer to the parish officers, and send persons Into the neighbourhood of the boroughs, to ascertain the exact number of the ten pound houses. (Hear.) The rusk of these inquiries varied so excessively from the returns that had been given into the the tai.ollice, as to show that he had been well founded in his doubts. He would beg 1 ave to read a few cases of boroughs in which these errors were prominent. In the borough of Arnershro, according to the tax-office returns, there were 25 101. houses, but upon examination the number proved to be 126. It was found that Ashburton, instead of 54 had 314 101. houses, if not 327. Christchurch, instead of 80, had about 300. Shaftesbury, instead of 75, had 155. Think, instead of 75, had 110. Wilton, instead of 34, had 150; Wy. comb, instead of 206, had 446 , and Westbury, instead of 14, had 318 houses. He held in his hand a list of 67 boroughs in which these discrepancies had been proved between the tax-office returns and the actual fact. With respect to other boroughs the difference was net very ma. t Let him be allowed to show what would have been said by his opponents, if he bad taken implicitly these tax.offfce returns. It would have been urged against him, that he had taken returns which notoriously varied, accord. ing to the caprice or favour of every tut-collector of a dis trict. The tax-collector bad his friends to oblige or his neigh bours whom he would not be very likely to offend, and he =that their taxes should not be too great ; and had he J. Russell) adopted these official returns as his bias, the outcry would have been, that be had, to suit his ins purposes, taken these u a rule, instead of adopting the basis of population. His opponents would have said, that ammo. !see was taken front boroughs which had 7,000 inhabitants, while Tavistock was left untouched because it had above 200 houses. "This," his opponents would lave said, " is what you call fair. You take this house.tex as a supreme rule, because It is in favour of your boroughs, instead of tak ing the plain, correct rule of population, and which you could have no doubt that you ought to have taken, if you had known any thing about the business you have in hand." This was the sort of attack to which be should have been exposed. What he had done, however, had not been for the sake of avoiding such attacks, but for the sake of the measure itself. There were, however, two places which could not be comprehended in the plan which be had proposed to himself. The places were so small, that to have included them in the plan would have been to have left the nomination of representatives in the buds of individuals. The first of these places was in the borough of Downton, and the noble earl who possessed the borough was the person ro call his attention to it. (Hear, bear ) He had made Inquiries, and be had thought it consistent with his duty to make this borough an exception to the ge neral rule, and include it in the schedule of disfranchise ment. The other borough was a mere straggling village of fishermen. He alluded to the borough of Ik. Germaine. He should be told, no doubt, that in including these two bo. roughs within the line of alisfrancisement, he was departing from the rule whirl he had so strictly laid down, and be should be unable to deny that in these two particular in stances be he had udeubtedly done so. (Hear, bear, hear.) But In point of fact, it was impossible to draw a line so so straight or to make any tole so definite, that men might not afterward find that change, might be made in particular places. He had now done with the explanations of his plan, and with the main part of the objections that had been urged against it. The only remaining task which be bad to perform was one of a very comprehensive nature. Persons might say, " Well, after all, what benefits will really be derived to the peo ple from this very extensive change In the representa tion ? Will this great reform give the people more to at and drink ; will it give them better habitations, will it improve them in morals or intelligence. or will it net leave them in these respects precisely as they are P" To those I who asked whether reform would give the people mom to eat and drink, he would say that this was totally irrelevant I to the matter. The question was one of constitutional principles. He should think it as reasonable to say to his noble friend the Chancellor of the Eschequer, when he took off the tax on coals—" this taking off of taxes will not improve the eustitution," as to have it said to him, this reform bill will not tend to give the peo ple superior comforts." He was not one of those who doubted the tbeory upon which the objection was (alluded. Ile had been very far from holding out any temptation of immediate and direct benefit to arise front this measure, in order to persuade the people into the adoption of it, lest they might be dissatisfied at finding he did not realise the promises be bed given, or the hopes be bad excited. But when be said this, be must also be allowed to declare, that he did not hold the theory which bad been advanced by the late Earl of Liverpool in a speech be made In the other boost 0 How small of all the ills which men endure, " The part which Kings or laws can cause or cure." However well this doctrine might be made to appear in theory, be was convinced that it was mischievous and to tally false in politics. If they compared one country with another, it would be found that it was Kings, Lords, and Governments, upon which in a great degree depended the character and condition of the people. When, for instance, he compared England with such a country as Spain—when he a.uw the traveller in Spain stopped by the stiletto, and murdered in the highway—and when be reflected upon the perfect safety in which a person might pass dough .all parts of England, be could , not refrain from saying, ehat these were differences which, if not immediately, were at least in the end • detived from the difference of go ,wernste, g . Was it possible for any lutelilgent person to travel through coentries and not trace the characters and conduct of the Inhabitants to the natant of their iouitastioss and government? When be proposed a reform of Paella. 'mom—when be proposed that the people should mod into ibis house, their real representatives, to deliberate on shelf wants, and to consult for their interests, to consider their galsommees awl attend to their desire... when be proposed that they should, in fact, as they hitherto la id in theory, possess the vast power of koldiog the purse-strings of the monarch—he felt eoiorlreed that hr was laying the foundation of effecting the greatest chairs In the comforts and wail-being 01 the people. Laws would no longer be rassd insuch answerably fir the henefi: of Government, or classes, or individuals—they would be 03 longer passed by men, rooted at It o'clock at right to we for what they new not or against that of which they had heard not a single syllable., merely because the leallerol their Party told them as to rota . I Laws in a reformed Parliamsot would be cautiouslpproposed, end seriously considered, and deliberated. Who would maintain that governments could do nothing with respect to the misery or happiness of a peo ple ? Let those who mite the assertion look at Ireland. ‘Vhat was the cause of the wretched state of Itel.sr.d tut the want of a due, parental, kind attention on the part of Ciu vernment to the condition of the people a want of a fellow feeling on the part of the supreme legi.lature towards the great mass of the population of Ireland? If they identi fied that house with the people of the three kingdoms. they might hope that the prosperity of eke country was se complisbed. In martini themselves to give to an enligh• - 'fled and peaceful people the hawk of having their repre sentatives assembled within the walls of parliament. they would furnish the means of carrying on unimpaired the constitution, without endangering the prerogatives of the crown, without injuring the authority of the houses of par 'lament, and according to the rights; liberties, and int of the nation. Those rights would be duly protected by the faithful representatives of a free people, and by the loyal subjects of a generous Sovereign. (Hie lordship sat down amidst the lend cheers of the boom, which were reiterated and continued with great enthusiasm. Sit ROBERT PEEL said that hie object In rising at that moment was to make a very few observation., and which, in hi. opinion, would tend to the convenience of all parties and he trusted that, if he did limit himself to thou observations, he should not be precluded from en tering into the subject on a future occasion am the ground of his baying spoken before. The Noble Lord who had brought forward the motion, was entirely wrong io sup ' posing for a moment that so important.a measure would be permitted to go to a Committee witholt an snakes and lengthened discussion. (Cheers from the opposition.) The noble Lord had concluded his speech by saying that he had summed up the arguments in favour of the bill, as well as the main °Avalon; that bad been made to it, but he (Sir Robert Peel) trusted that the mile lord would permit him and his friends to state for themselves their ob jections, though, at the same time, he had no further wish at the present moment than t o advance his claim to a full. free, and fair discussion upon the principles of the bill, and upon the manner and the degree in which it involved all the permanent and essential iweresta of the country. He was willing to take the discussion, if it should appear to be the general sense of the house, on the second reading (hear.) Its the last session of parliament hare was given to intro. duce the bill without any division of the house. Although he did not perceive any essential alteration in the character of the bill, he could not but recollect that there were in the present parliament many members who had not been present at :i.e discussion of the former bill in the last parliament. The house could not but beer in mind that his Majesty's recommendation from the throne had prodeccd fmm them an answer that they would give an early and attentive con sideration to this subject. This, with the affairs of the house combined, did induce him to waive any opposition upon the first stage of the bill, and permit it to be brought in without any division. If this should be the opinion of other gentlemen, be should say that he did Wok that it, commence a de bate, wh ch was not to end in a divisive', was a most incoovenient proceeding. He did not wish the house again to be betrayed info a debate of six or seven nights,which was to terminate without any division. He would permit the bill to be read a first rime, and he was even ready to forego the great temptation which the noble lord bad given to reply to some parts of Ms speech. (Hear.) He would forbear answering the satirical allusions of the noble lord, for once to bekin a discussion would lead to a protraction of a debate, which he very much wished to avoid ; but if he absta ineti from makiag on, reply to the noble lord's taunts or satire, be MOW th a t no Ink. rence would be drawn that be abangemel.the right of answering these awake, IMM were applkehls to. hint. self and ea criers who Wale united with him In his op. position te is measure. Fee his purpose, be fished but fee one sainted dienualen 'en the principles of the bill, peaks* to its !lei Wm the committee. Ha spoke, bow. ever, merely as an imlividsaL He wished bat fee one full and fair &made% but he also deskesd, tent lien tbat• dia musks did take plata, nothing shwa prevent Me *lag the settee of the house imentbe enestine. (Chem Aids the Opposit) It was mmt einfonemble to the seepteepar. !lenient that both the dlicendeamel the division should take pies on the second reatilitg. Pletflenel the Waage, would give the new parliament mi ewenwalty of a Ai madders. ties , previous to the die L.... He mend noweneeminy lay.and when be odd Ms, he hoped he might appedmith ' coolidesee to thiamine hotbed pawned ow alter madam. He wished for a remenakb dm% sod oak Ow he *Pk Bois a free discussion. for beak! not seek it iffy any pose. The The noble lord eiteald recollect that he % d & a speech of two hours long. Preen this he ( lie R. b ad a right to eoncleide that the noble lord considered the subject was entitled to and deserving et a MI umiak discussioa, and that his bill was to undergo' mei essiii. ration. He hoped that before the house was oiled so the I discussion, it would, in fairness, be put in pesseadon of the I intention of his Nlajesty's Government with seep* tb the bill of reform fur Ireland end Scotland. (Hete) !mile speech the noble lord bad said noising of these beltsAsi the last session he believed that the Irish reform Mime not ' brought in until after the main discussion, but yet the house was aware of what really were the ante Lions of %is Majesty's Government with respect to • the titiadan lb ht. land. Without insisting on all the sechinal details odelpill in a matter of tech immense importance, It was material that before the House discussed the English bill , it should know what his Majesty's Mitgateta proposed with respect to the reform of the representation of Seodeed.:.• The King's speech bad recommended the Howe weinake the general question of Reform with reference to Inked sad to Scotland, as well as to England ;and if the House proceeded to fulfil the promises they had• gives in , the address, that they would proceed immediesser its sake into co nsideration the question of reform, therimpabwaan compliance with that address not certainly q prepaid ml is the bills port passes, but still to seek to know what Was to be done with respect to Ireland sod kotiaod. flu trusted that be had fulfilled the preasiees with which he bottom- Rimmed addressing the house, and had moaned bisisself within the proposed order of proceeding. He had ontyle express his hope that the noble lord would name a day kr the secs,nd reading so distant, as to afford a fair keened *.r the conaideration of the bill, nd yet not so Wog es ea prose of any incocvenieoee to public taminesa. • Hvansetrei Was in the interval the noble lord would put the bows in .iroo session of the intentions of his majesty's ministers with to spect to :reland and Soodand. • • , • • • • • • • Lord .1. RUSSELL said • it might not :homogenise for parliament to bring in the Irish and &mob Rehm Bills at the same time as the English—(Laughter in 'he Opposition.) it ROBERT PEEL mid, that being about te:atelle such important i =rB in the constituden, to Bt: Maim* week for the •• wading would not be al e = s t much time for beneerable members to prepace h (Hear, hear.) Wkh aspect to the bills for Irekndinell emlaisd, bow was it peudWe to discuss the queetiematthe reduction of English mombas, without knowing atnishing of the representation Winded for the two other himpleme. Ile trusted that Government would put the ileum*, thole esofelence. Ile was idisserely anxious that they shoal come to the argument without prejudice or acerbity Oise,. ing. He therefore hoped that Government would accede W he two demands. Lord A LTHORP said, that if the sense of the house was with the right hoc. gent. he had not the least objemisweit accede. The changes of the Sands audirish Mem not greater than those in the English, and threekwe vernment supposed that they wee alr.ssly suillisody .well known to the house, to allow a discussion en the English bill. Mr. STA N LItY . had Da obj,c.den un meg isawsui for Ireland before the second reading of the ihrelhhollilL—a He hoped bon. members opposite would also se far as to allow it to be introduced to that ea s e et It essadna. He wasted that the discoidal' as thollsglisitiat wauld oat le egnewad so the readier of the. Santa semildist 11111,.as it was last,Session, andthst no each Bill there would he a discussion on that Bill only. Bit ROBERT PEEL said, that this was p he slalbsi. All its wanted was, that before : Be i tik bin, they shoehl be. ite4)0111111dell, si• the teeeehens , et iiovennuint with reelpeee .to the atheT bLIk. , Hu entirely in the propriety et as tasking the &melt bilk ass tweasion foe reseideg the deseaselia Usdasgsd the ioal•Aensaaa bit I honk this the 'porch of the hon. rotkaaaa. (A laugh.) 1