Star. — London, England, 1817-02-20 00:00:00

promulgated among than, and the design doh le. r 2 it ly conceived, of é forcible destruction of all Oro. p arty, that the evil wa, of an extent which the exist in, laws were not strong enough to contronl. Lord CASTLEREAGH then moved, chit the g ee ort should b.: printed, and taken into considera lien oa Ishilday next, which was ordered accordingly. Mr. LAM ETON moved for an account of the ex penses of Lo:d Castlereagh's mission in 1814. Ordered. Mr. GOULBURNE gave notice or a motion to a lter at• ariend an act of the 43d of his present Ma jesty, re,pectiag passengers leaving the country on board foreign ships. In 1803 he stated, it had been found neces.ary to lay restrictions on persons leaving the country, and under th , ise restrictions no ship was 3 11 , ) wed to carry More than a limited number of per sitn. The alteration he now proposed was to allow Ithe same number of persons to go out to the colo /I;es ir. foreign ships as would be allowed on board 4Jarisports. TRANSACTIONS WITH THE BANE. Mr. GRENFELL having moved that the Peti tion from the Freeholders and others of the County o' Cornwall, and the Petition of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council of the City of Len dcn be entered as read, proceeded to state his wish to redeem the pledge he had given last Session, of hying again before the House the Transactions of et Public withihe Bank of England; and he was t h e more induced to proceed from a consideration of me circumstances in which the country now stood, and which were of such a nature as to render neces sary every retrenchment of expenditure. He entered on the subject with a confident hope of being able to introduce such principles of economy and retrench. pent, in addition to what was effected last Session, Is to save the country a very considerable sum, without proposing any thing unfair to the Bank, or tramping the resources of that great corporate body. Fe bad so often addressed the House on the same sibject, that he should compress as much as possible chat he had to say, at the same time that the ins retain nature of it, and the interval that had elapsed "nee he last claimed the attention of the House, ren dered it necessary that he should trespass somewhat at their patience. He should first state the progress mottle in the last Session of Parliament, and then those do ther retrenchments of which he thought the sub. kezt capable. When be first called the attention of ' the House to the matter, he was aware that he ex- 1 ocl himself to the irritation, if not to the hostile fcelin;s of a very respectable body of men, the Di ne tors 01 the Bank of England-. [the Hon. Gentle =in here proceeded to eulogize several of the Direc tors of the Bank]—towards whom, in .their indivi dual capacity, he bad no possible dislike: but to whose system, as a corporate body, he was decidedly hostile, and to their acquisition of exorbitant gains at the public expense, but on no public grounds. Those gins and profits it was his object to curtail within litniu that should leave the Bank a liberal cornpensa. lion, t.n principles of moderation, equity, and justice towards the Public. The Howe would recollect, that in the year 1797, just twenty years ago, when the Restriction Act was passed, the affairs of the Bank were investigated by a Committee of Secrecy, which was the first occurrence of that nature that had taken since the original grant of the Charter, in the It then appeared, that for nearly ccen the only profiti derived to the Bank Proprietors re dividends, sometimes as high as nine per cent. . other times as low as ; making an average of 61 per cent. ; but there was nothing like a bonus or increase of capital during that period. By the investigitioo it also appeared that there had ac. .aitilated in the hands of the Bank a surplus of on. divided profits to the amount of it 3,800,0000 which, added to the fund of 4f11,600,000, made a grand ' in their hands of dr15,a00,000; with this capi the Bank started With the Restriction Act, and profits were the consequence. The first Jon was the rate of management of the pub. which was exorbitant in a degree, such as of no other banking or commercial clash could present. The profits of the Banks of Amsterdam, or Hsmburgb, sunk into insig. in comparison with those of the • /lank of • fug the last twenty years. In proof of this a tact within his own knowledge, and as being himself a Bank Proprietor. be was I to weak that the profits of the Bank the last twenty years, in addition to usual dividend of seven per cent. amounted to nun of twenty.seven hsar•)-- defied either tbe Chancellor of the Eachequer or of the Honourable Bank Directors then present • the accuracy of that statement. Ingiving of the profits of the Bank of England their engagements with the public, he begged leave Mae. once for all, that he did not mean to impute to the Bank that made these gains. He )1t only with the Government that tolerated For, besides the natural desire Of gain that , car man in every relation in life. the Bank were bound by oath to exert thentsehres on : to improve the property of their OA. out he trusted that the ardour that mime d* Directors, and the success'that attended their discharge of their duty, would induce its torn. to consider the interests of the dear.) Much of these enormous pro. attributed to the influence which their money-gave the Bank Directors ever Chancellor of the Exchequer in their pecuniary and when this was properly considered, naturally aspect that the Right Honourable -posite would net make any opposition for a thorough investigadoa of the it would thereby reader bins in fu dependent on the Directors. Bet, notwith his, and that many of those Oho usually Ministers on such occasions were, be was desirous of terminating the present system. - )at the Right Honourable Gentleman off the trammels which time or in tposed on him. It was impossible to Bank bad, on many occasions, afforded , minodations to the Public ; but it should be considered, that it was the public that bad the Bank to grant the accommodation, by the Restriction Act. But even there very were sources of new profits obtained __ exercised by the Directors over the of the Exchequer in all pecuniary arrange influence had manifested itself in many ; and no one could look at it without sc- the iiii 'knowledging that such a ColleitA over the conce rns , of Goiernment was In its mire unfit find anoma• loos, and in its consequences Mischievous and danger ous. Statement* to this effdet had been Ilrequenqnsee in the House; bit motions founded on them always encountered opposition, more remarkable for its taci turnity, and formid4ble by the rot of the itx Hon. Bank Directors, than fir the arguments advancediin the question. it had been said, Indeed, that the statements were exaggerated—but no proofs were ver advanced in support of the allegation ; and when he, and his friends on the ►ame side of the question, complained of the exorbitant charge of . _ £300,000 tor management, the lioncurable Direc tors said, that the Bank indeed was extremely mo- Jerate, being satisfied with only 7d. in every AIM. But let it be considered (said Mr. Grenfell) that this 7d. was levied annually, upon' an amount of debt which he almost shuddered to mention—on no less than 800 millions of pounds sterling ! The real question, however, for the consideration of the House was, whether the nature of the service, and the risk run by the Bank, were such as enabled it to receive a yearly sum, which, in November last, amounted to £282,001.? This could be considered in a Commit tee only, where he should be glad to encounter the Honourable Directors in fair discussion, and where, he trusted, he should be enabled to prove that the services of the Bank would be fairly and even libe rally remunerated by half their present profits, or by about £150,000 a year. There was another source of immense profits to the Bank, namely, the sums of public money that have accumulated, and were sow lying in their hands. The amount of these within the last twenty years was seldom less than nine millions, and not unfrequently exceeded &f -leet) millions, the average being about eleven millions. This money, locked up from public use, caused a loss to the public of about 5 or £600,000 annually, producing an equal profit to the Bank. When this abuse had on a former occasion been complained of, and an account demanded of the sums of money so accumulated, what was the conduct of the Bank Directors ? They prevented for a few days the pro duction of the accouat ; and an Honourable Bank Director opposite (Mr. Thornton) had asserted, that the money was not serviceable to the Bank ; but not withstanding this assertion, the Gentlemen were very unwilling to part with it.—(Hear, hear.) —'They en deavoured then to excite alarm, and spoke of the danger resulting to the public credit by such discus sions; but he knew of no injury such discussing could create to the credit of Government, but the proofs they afforded of what was well expressed on a former occasion by an Hoa. and Learned Gentleman, whose absence he sincerely regretted (Mr. Horner)-- (Cries of Bear, Islas, hear)—who designated it as a sy►tem of profligate profusion on the part of the Government, and of rapacity on that of the Bank.— He apprehended, in the present instance, the usual opposition of the Chancellor of the . Exchequer, more formidable by his phalanx of voters than the strength of his argumeatcbut this consideration should not de ter him from the performanse of a duty he owed the country ; and in this determination he was the more confirmed by the reflection, that although he might be out-voted upon particular occasions, it was not the vote of one night that decided questions. He remembered his having moved for the production of certain accounts connected with the pecuniary con sienes of the public with the Bank, which the House were induced to refuse by the eloquence and argu ments of the Right Hon. Gentleman; but in eight days after, when the subject was again brought be fore the House, for the purpose of enabling it to re vise its former decision, the Right Hon. Gentleman went down, and contrary to the wishes of the Direc tors of the Bank, granted what was required ; so that be (Mr. Grentell) obtained, by an unanimous vote on the 26th of April, what had been refused on the 18th.—(Hear, item.) The arrangements relative to what was called the Stamp Composition-money paid by the Bank, likewise afforded evidence of the fre quency with which - the opposition of Ministers was followed by almost immediate acquiescence. It was well known that the Bank were permitted, for theirown convenience, to issue promissory notes without the meal stamp, by making a composition with Government.— ' This arrangement had been made originally on very L equitable principles by Mr. Pitt, who was the only Chancellor of the Exchequer that knew how to ma nage the flank but his principles, which were regu lated 6* the extent of issues of notes, were deviated from by i Lord Sidmoutb, as it it were equitable, or in the contemplation of the Legislature, that this wealthy establishment should be free from the expense which the poorest country bank is compelled to submit td with the extremest severity. At the time of altering the amount of the Stamp Duties, a question was put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to ascertain on what principle the Bank composition should be car ried oa, to which the Right Hon. Gentleman replied, that the composition should be iffcreased in proper tioo, not to the increase of circulation, but merely to the increase of Stamp Dutiei l It was observed front the Opposition side of the House, that such a measure would be only a continuation of the injus tice long carried on, by which the Bank had for se veral years been pocketing £53,900 annually; and in consequence of the discussions that took place on that occasion, a Bill was brought in, by which the composition was raised from £48,000 to £87,000, and amounted, in the last year, to £90,000. A third proof of the good effects of discussion might be shewn by reference to the amount of public money in the hands of the Bank. In former discussions on this subject, it had been stated that the money was not serviceable to the . Bank. This observation bad been madk by the Honourable Member for Taunton (Mr. Baring), whom he congratulated on his return from his foreign mission. Ot this money six millions were advanced to the public at tour per cent. which would undoubtedly be at any time a valuable concession; and by which a saving of sixty thousand pounds per annum WAS effected. But as this sum tormed only a part of the public money in the hands of the Bank, he contended, that instead 'of paying four per cent. for it, the public would have had it for nothing. — Soon alter there was another concession of three ma fiosi at S per cent. equivalent to a saving of £60,000 ; there was also an advance, at no interest, of un clamied dividends, equivalent to en annual saving of £15,000; 40 adding together— the wing ea the advance or six millions at per cant. of The saving on **advance of three millions, at psr ceat. of • me 60,000 • 0 Tb e y 446 ti 5,000 To which if their Aided the Itereite of Stiteito Conikiltion; of • • . _ 34,000. ai TM total wine would he ,e toopoo fig.c7edotiiln eon dnOt say .. ibeit all this anneal saving was e le4nence of discussions in that House, but they toot place lit ast since that discussion; and he would leave it to the House tvi•consider whe ther it teas doe to it, or rather to the vigilance of the Right Hon. Gentleman; and the justice and new-born liberality of the Honourable Bank Directors After having thui stated the progress of our pecu. niary transactions with the Bank, and the results of previous proctedingi, it might perhapi be asked, if he were Dot satisfied with the amount of savings' already obtaineds and what further gains he could promise himself in prosecuting the matter ? To this he would answer, that he would never rest satisfied until the whole subject was arranged on equitable principles; and it would now become his duty to point out what sources of future profits, or, rather, of further economy, he still discovered. The balance of public money was nearly the same as it had been for the last ten or twelve years, or about an aggre gate amount of eleven millions, unproductive to the country, which thereby sustained an annual loss of £550,000. From this sum were to be deducted £160,000 saved on money advanced to Mr. Perce val, whereby the right of the public to share in the enormous profits of the Bank was distinctly recog nised. This united with the savings of £60,000 on the advance of 6 millions at 4 per cent. and of £60,000 on the advance of S millions at S per cent. formed an aggregate of £270,000. So that as annual profit still remained to the Bank, or at least a loss accrued to the public, which, with reference to Ids argument, had precisely the same effect, of 4280,000; and all this was granted to the Bank for the insignia. leant service of acting as the treasurer of the pablie. The nest source of economy was to be foood in the exorbitant rate of management; and biro the Ho nourable Member contended that the Bank, instead of receiving £282,000 annually for this service, 'womift be liberally rewarded by £150,000. There awe also some minor charges which it would not be below the dignity of the House to consider, particu larly as during the last Session they had struggled hard to save £l,OOO from the salary of the Secretary of the Admiralty, and £1,500 from that of the Vice ' Treasurer of Ireland. One of those charges was £4,000 for house expenses. 'Phis was transferred to the Batik, with four millions purchased of South Sea Stock, and was, in the original grant to the South Sea Company, to have continued only until that ca pital was paid. This had been done long since, and consequently this disgraceful charge ought to termi nate. But, besides the £3OO on every million de rived by the Bank for managing the national debt, being about 7d. a hundred, whereby the Bank ga'ned from 4 to £500,000 during the war, they were not. satisfied without a commis ion of 20d. a hundred on every load contracted. He hoped he should never live to see another loan contracted in this conntry-•• (Hear, hear, from the Chased/or of the Exchequer)—tbe, House should legislate for every future contingency. ' —Having thus gone through the several items of ex penstin oUr arrangements with the BAnk, and pointed , out the possibility of an effectual economy, he begged leave to assure the House that in so doing he was ac tuated by no feeling but a concern for the public good, and a conscientious conviction, ardent, per haps, but certainly sincere, of the necessity of cor recting the abuses that existed in the present system, and relieving the burdens that pressed so heavily on the whole frame of society. If, however. the Bank were Ale, by a liberal interpretation of their Char ters, to show their tight to those several expenses, he should be ready to acknowledge his error; but the only place to enter into that examination was a Select Committee. He therefore called on the Bank Direc. ton to enter into the investigation freely and man fully, and expos', if they could, the fallacies that had been urged against them. If, however, instead of that manly ground of conduct, they would only shel ter themselves under the shield of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, what inference could be drawn f tom such a proceeding but that they evaded inquiry, from the conviction that they were incapable of bearing the light, and that they shrunk from the touch of a Parliamentary investigation? The Honourable Gen tleman concluded by moving— * mat a Select Committee be appointed to inquire Into tke engagements now subsisting between the thavenoment and the Bank of Ingland, to consider what advantages the Bank derives front he transactions with the Public, with a view to the adoption of sane arrangement, consistent with the good lank that aught to waist, and to report thereon to the House." The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the Honourable Proprietor had brought forward his Motion with a good deal of dexterity, by making an appeal to the Bank. He called on the Directors of that establishment to adopt a manly line of con duct, and to bring under the closest inspection of the House, all the transactions which that concern was engaged in. Now, he conceived, the aims ftrobandi rested on those who called for examination, to state the grounds on which it was necessary ; instead of demanding of those, whose transactions were props ed to be made the subject of investigation, to advance reasons for refusing their compliance. If the trans actions between Government and the Bank had not been brought distinctly under the view ot Parliament, if they had not received as much consideration as could be afforded to 'any subject—then, certainly, lie would allow that the arguments of the Honourable Gentleman carried great weight with them. But he had himself stated the period when the engage. ments of the Bank were fully considered, and when they received the approbation of Parliament.— They were completely entered into, in 1807, be fore the Select Committee of Finance, by whom several useful suggestions were thrown out.— Of these Mr. Percent had availed himself in the first instance; and he ( Mr. Vansittart) bad always thought himself bound to attend to them whenever an oppor tunity occurred. If the Honourable Gentleman could chew that the engagements between Government and the Bank had, on any occasion, assumed such a cha racter as called for minute Parliamentary inquiry— if a rate of advantage were allowed to the Bank, which justice did not warrant—then he should have no objection to a motion of this kind. But he had never heard suzh a charge insinuated except by the Honourable Gentleman. He had argued, that the profits of the Bank were progressively increasing ; but • • •it must appal*. to e• - ery person who can:Were e in" 'subject fairly that the 'contrary was the case, and that the profiti Made by the Bank in the transactions be. tweed them and 'die GoVernment, vver p . bsolitte/y creasing, and in a very rapid degaee. This was very clear when the relative :value of money in war and peace was considered. In time of peace, whey the imereit of nraey was lowered, neither the Bank nor any other great body could Make so much profit by the employment of their 'capital as in time of war. He here spoke of profs generally, those of five per cent. which the Bank had made in some of their ulna. actions with Government, as well as those lower,— Now, if 'they were able, during a period of war, to make 5 per cent. the redt:ction of interest, consequent on peace, must alone have very materially l'wered their profits. And it should also he recolle:fed, that the rystem of discount had likewise onderzoue a very great alteration. The inference he would draw from dive facts was, that the arrangement with the Bank, which, two years ago, was thought favourable by Parliament. must now be considered more advantageous to the public than it was then. With respect to the employment of the balances held by the Bank, for the service of the public. he bad never heard a flan by which, without the cuncur rence of the Bank, it could be ca -ri-d in , o etE ct. Dining Mr. Perceval'; administration a plan WAS devised for that porpoie—but it was abandoned ; and, after siring it tis utmost conrideration, it appeared to him to be impracticable, without the Bank themselves completely concurred in it.... That plan having been thrown aside. Mr. Perceval thought the public ought to derive some benefit from the balances which were placed under the contronl of the Bank, and, in consequence, au arrangement WAS made, the principle of which was still acted on, al though some modification had been made in the de tails. By that arrangement a rum of money had been borrowed, part of it without interest, and the re. mainder at a very moderate rate. In the last year the Bank lent £6,000,000 to Government, at £4 per cent. and £3,000,000 at an interest of •$3 per cent. Now, if the arrangement made by Mr. Perceval was calculated to benefit the public, he contended, consi dering the difference of the periods, that those ar rangements which followed were still more advan- tagious ; and he did not think it right to check or impede this system at a time when leis benefit could be derived from the public money, by the Bank, than what it must have produced when the bargain was originally concluded. The present time was, he conceived, ill suited Inc such an inquiry as that pro posed. In the last Session of Parliament, it was determined that the Bank should commence pay ments in cash on the sth of July, 1818 —and there was a clear understanding, that they should begin to make preparations for that purpose. It would be wrong to agree to an inquiry, which would go to lay open those arrangements which the Bank had made . preparatory to their resumption of cash payments.— One of those arrangements they were acquainted with. It was a notice to pay a part of their paper, which bad been issued at proton' periods. The result of this experiment was vet y well known. It was found that no very great disposition prevailed to send in those notes, in order to obtain cash ; and therefore great encouragement was feOd out to the Bank to perse vere in calling in notes of particular dates. By this means, before the time arrived for a complete re sumption of cash payments, it was hoped that there would be such an issue of specie, as would prevent any embarrassment at the Bank, and would remove every fear that might be entertained of a de ficrer.cy of cash in the country. When the House saw this, he thought, that, instead of making enquiries into con tracts, settled at present by Act of Parliament, they ought to await the completion of the preparations he had alluded to. They ought not to harass the Bank to proceed to measures, which, he was sum, they were most anxious to adopt, and which the House had a tie' to call for, when the proper time ar rived. He confessed, when, at the close ef last Session, considerable benefits were derived by the Government from its transactions with the Bank— when it was fixed that, on the sth of July, 1818, they should resume their porticoes in specie—he did not think they would have been harassed by inquiries which could have no other practical effect tban to disturb existing regulations, and to render the Bank less quick, and probably less able, to commence pay ment in cash, than they otherwise would be. It the Honourable Gentleman had adduced any arguments, novel in their nature, or which bad nut already been discussed in that House, he should have entered more • into 'detail, though with some personal inconvenience. (The Right Honourable Gentleman was afflicted with a severe cough).—But, asthis was not the case, he conceived the general observations he had made were s 'sueicient for the occasion. Mr. P. MOORE said, the Right Honourable Gen tleman hal not overturned one of the statements made by his Honourable Friend, who had called tor a Com mittee, that he might have an opportunity of proving every fact hr had laid before the House. The Com mittee of 1807, was not formed by the Ministry of that day, Istit 'originated with a Noble Ft iend of Isis, aow a Member of the other House. From the Re port of that Committee much advantage had loco derived; but it did not your-tenth solar as it would kayo done, if the statements of his Honoitrable Friend (Mr. Grenfell) had been irocvidence before that Com mittee. Any unprejudiced persoo. who heat d his Ho nourable Friend Ming forward his statement of facts that n i g h t , cou ld have no doubt whatever that he would, if opportunity were given him, prove every one of than. In conclusion, the Honourable Gentleman strongly recommended the repeal of t!,e Restriction Act as the only means of setting the sul , j:ct at rest. Mr. MARRYATr said, the greatest argument that could be adduced no favour of the pretent rum. tion, was the benefit that had been derived from pre vious inquiries of the same nature. In consequence of the labours ef the Committee of 1807, the pub lic had gained 4160,000 per annum, a loan of X 3.000,000, having been granted by the Bunk, in 1808, without interest. Last Session the question was again introduced, and a corresponding advan tage followed. He was of opinion, that the Book received too much for the management of the public debt. And here it might not belmpror er to remark, that the Bank of the United States of America did all the business of the State, merely in consideration of the balances placed in their hands, witich could bear no comparison with those with the Gov , :rronent of this country left at the disposal of the Bank of k.Nland awir at was the first occurr place since the orig )ear 169 i. It the tury the only profit were dividends, soi at other times as li pqm cent.; but an increase of cal same investigstion cumulated in the b divided profits to t added to the fund total in their handl tal the Bank start enormous profits consideration was lie debt, which wa the history of no lishment could pre Beau, Amster& millrace in comp England,• foe the stated a tact hieh, as being enabled to serif] within the Int ' usual dividen sum of tweet • e defied either t ny of the Ham °.disPute the acc exposition of n thei r ' gates once for a ay censure to tho mind fault only I hem. For, bosh 'kmfled it man , ; .rectoss were be very occasion to Invents; Out he ed the Di rectors, unions to the di , e House, in its oblici--eNaar, A were to be at ommand of me v ery Chancellor eigssiatione; eat • would natural tleman uppol o his motion *sok affairs, as i ` l7e less depende landing t hi s , ee me with Minist vinced, desire' still feared tha Id not throw sauce bad imps 7 that the Bat eat stemma slim be tonsil abkd t h e Ban , ins of the lies e eownodations the influence hancellor of the 'ens'. This id, " a ces ; and