Star. — London, England, 1817-04-29 00:00:00

and it certainly opened a special case of itself. He agreed alth him, that it was extremely desirable to relieve the subject mom the rape se of renewing his commission, under the event contemplated by thr Bill, and on tb - s ground he did not feel any objection to .is principles in the ei m•ral !tense. He therefore was not ptep.rt•l o gilt. the sem n •l reading arty objection, but only widit Or Ri t tt• Honourable Gentleman to allow about ten day: to eldp•e between the wmild and third reading, that the Howl mist. , br enabled to tiok loco the general principles of the bill. . Mr. PON-it totiors‘ril bins•-!f happy to and that the Bill had mi.t the corctirri , nre of the ble Lord. He had not contemplated any thing that might make the least change In the , Const:ttnito. ; and hr had lin desi. - e to do any thing but what /Eight Lae, 11. e Apt mailman tit the House. Th e then read a secuod time, and, on the 'nog/Ilion of Mr. i ussout.r, was oral:reit to be constituted on Thursday sennii s h:. Mr. LAM IiTON postponed Ids Motion on the Lisbon Mis sion, in con...venal of the request of a Noble Lord, till Tues. day, the 6 t. or May. Lord PAI.M E.W.TON presented a Petition on the subject 61 Tithes, ipso , the Master anti Scholars of the University of Cam bridge. winch was recd and ordered to lir on the Tabk. A number cot Petitions aga•tist Private Pills were presented by Sir JAMS SHAW, Me-sr , FINLAY. Coax, and o:hrr Gentle. wen. One ut ti. m from the Market Gardeners of the Parish of l4eworih. stared the grievous oppression undtr which they laboured beim the present system of 1 ithe Laws. Mr. BLAKE said. he , 040 merely to ask the Rit ; ht Honour. able Gentleman (the Chancellor of the. Exchequer) whether it was his Intention to extend the provisions of his plan tor the re lief of t 1..• labouring poor to Ireland? Ihe CHANCEI.LOR of the EXCHEQUER had no hesita tion in .ayaig, that it was his intention to extend his plan equally to all parts at the United Empire. MAUD.: UNDIR WRITS oF SHRUM Sir S. ROMILLY, on rising to present a Petition that c' mplained of the difficulties and losses inciden tal to the recovery of small debts, thought it neces. sary to state a circumstance which w.it worthy of the particular consideration of the House. The enor mous amount of expenses to which a creditor might be put in trying to recover debts or no very large amount, was hardly to Le brlieved ; for when the I)efe•ndant got hold of. a nefarious Practitioner, the creditor might be ruined. fie would state a fact which had come to his knowledge, in illustration of the circumstance. It appeared chat a franked letter had been sent, addressed generally to the prisoners in the Gaol of Liverpool, but being overweight, they had refused to receive it, and it was sent back. The contents of this letter had been made known to him, and they turned out to be as follows person, who called himself an Agent to the Insolvent Debtors' Court, had sent a circular to the prisoners in the dif ferent ci.usitry prisons for debt, offering to sue out writs of Habeas Corpus for them, and remove them to the Kaug's Bench. Amongst other advice, with the reading of which he should not trouble the House, this pap..r ti;ld them, that when their creditors pen"- ceeded to get judgment against them. they should ortler their Attorney to search the FiAal Judgment Office, and have with him the Writ of , Error ; this would put the plaintiff to a great expense; but if they wished to harass him still farther, they should' make the writ returnable in Parliament, which would cost the .plaintiff one hundred pounds, and the de fendant only • ne-gisineff. It went on to inform him how he might. fur £24. - 15‘ put the creditor to an expense of £545. The Learned Gentleman pro ceeded to descant on the evil of Writs of Error. and adverted to certain abuses which had been detected sad remedied in Appeal Cases, suggesting that the same method of having two Bari isters to certify, be fore the• Writ was issued, would be the means of put. Ong an end to the evil so justly complained ot. Mr LYTTLETON said he had a Paper given to him towards the close of the last Session, precisely similar to that described by the Honourable Gvnile. man. but bid.no opportunity of doing any thing on the subject. He heartily wished the House would take up such a . gr , iss and scandalous abuse of the wise intentions of the law. • The Petition. which-was from certain persons. in. habitants of the County of York, stewing the losses and.injuriee they sustained in trying to recover small debts. and praying Oft:lnterference of the House, was then presented, mid, end ordered in lie on the table. CA 'MOM PiTITIONS. Sir H. PARNELL said he rose to present a Peti tion from the Roman Catholics of Ireland. which, *disked the favourable attention of the House to' their peculiar condition under the penal laws. It stated that they bad taken every 9ath of fidelity and allegiance, and they referred to thodifeeent Acts of the LegislSeureol Ireland for repeated proofs of their loysisy, aoterithstandmg which they will remained soder the effect of the penalties; bT reason of their conscientious adherence to the religion of their lore. fathers. They had no sinister object to obtain. Their only object was avowed, and they prayed the House to take it haw their favourable consideration. There was another topic which, frcm its great importance, he felt it necessary to touch upon. The claim wblch had been set up about securities had been the repeated cause of the failure, of their object, as founded on the subject of the election of the Irish Bishops. It sunlit be remembered that the Catholic Bishops had is LIXIS. 'declared it inexpediesit to make any altera tion in ' this ,subject, and they were followed in this opinion by the laity. Bus now so great a change, hadtaken place s that the Irish Buboes no l onger agreed ',this resolution, but had made every arrange- meat so meet all objections. They had stated that they were anxiously civilises to conciliate all opinions, and obviate every objection that esiatcl be shade to their pretensions. He trusted the sentiments of tine peskiest would be considered as she declaration on the purstif the,Catbolics of Ireland. It was couched in moderate and proper language. He would stale in what die plan of doniestic nutlimation consisted. The Catholic Prelates recommended oh a vacancy but the Bishops were not obliged to agree to the nomina tion. It had been proposed to procure from: the Pope a Concordat, to makcou appointment bog what should be presented to him. They offered to bind themselves by oath, that none 'but a natural hero siabj.ct of thir realm should be chosen for a Bishop, and that all should swear Douai make any attempt to overturn the civil'or ecclesiastical constitution, or to disturb 'properifas settled by4fie. An eminent per. sonage, most in the confidence of the Pope bad de clared. that he would nut oppose chieldia.• It smis also proposed to secure that no person should &trail the dice of electors, who were not oattatt bdra suk: ism. kir th 0914 not eater into any argusfelits oq this launching matter at pietist, but ilfiet i ap e d . t h e Rome would take into theit serious consideration, and come prepared - to give . o Or4ision on the motion about to locate& by his Right Nottourable Friend. lie bag *very ream to Wier% that it would be • „ . • found r.ct objection would be made by the Catholics. which Parliament would think proper to oppose. General MATTHEW declared he bad never of fered himself with more pleasure to the House then on the present occasion. The system of moderatine and conciliation displayed by the Catholics, would, he trusted, be now likely to become the order of the day. He was happy to state that the Catholics of Ireland were actitated by a full determination to lay aside all party spirit, and that their principle should he only that of conciliation and accommodation, as ak as the Catholic religion would allow them to go. He aincerely hoped that no agents of faction w o uld be found in the House to bring on attain a teligious c , ntreversy, and revive the old stories about the bloody times of Henry and bloody Mary, and that the House would no longer waste their time in listening to tedi ous and useless speeches—(Loeshirr).— Six millions of degraded Catholics were now looking tip to then. fur liberty, and the country expected that they would make themselves masters of the subject before they came to decide on what was. demanded .by circum• stances. The titular Archbishops of Dublin and Cashel, Dr. Murray and Dr. Everett, had been de puted to this country, fully qualified to give every in brm.-tion. He was authorized to state, by those Bi shop., that they were ready to give every security, as tar as domestic nomination went, and this ought to satisfy the most fastidious. The Honourable Ge neral, otter ridiculing as a bugbear the apprehension ut any interference on the part of the Pope, cares sed his hope of witnessing the emancipation of his fellow -countrymen. Mr. WEBBER declared that he did not partake of any of that intolerance alluded to by the Honour able General. Nobody was more anxious than him self that every civil right should be atended to the Citho!tcs. He could bear eestimony to the great me rits fet very many ind.vidu .Is of that body, with whom he was acquainted. But his objection was nut in any degree fuemded on private character; he found it his painful duty to o b ject to the proposition that would be made, from a complete conviction, arising Iron: long and deep reflection on the system itself. He did not think it would ever be his fate to hear the question of securities for the Constitution agitated in that House. Any such question should never be entertained in that House. It was his op.- nion that this question could not have any o.her ef fect than that of creating an incipient. revolution, and that by conceding the prayer 01 the petitions, -um House would, be doing nothing short of subverting the Protestant settlements in Ireland. Mr. BLAKE observed that lie did pat rise to de fend the conduct or priociples of his constituents, whose names are subscribed to the petition now pre sented by the Hon. Baronet, but he rose to defeat! the Character and consistency or earlianient. The Howe had been told by the Hon. and Learned M. other (Mr. Webber) that by conceding the prayer of ti e petitions, or rather by consenting to Catholic main. pinion. they would be doing an act that would amount to a subversion of the British Constitution ;—yet the House would recollect that Parliament had already acceded to the justice and policy of that measure ; and the only question now to be decided was as to the nature and- extent of those securities, which it would be prudent to annex as a condition to the gVaut. He defended those who objected to the Vito on conscientious principles ; but he implored the Houle to legislate as became them, and thereby put an end to the discussion of a qriesth n, which was used as a peg upon which to hang tidiarnitiat.ey a n d irritating speeches. The petition was then brought up and read. On the question that it be laid on the table, Sir JOHN NICHOL said, he rose to enter his protest against two positions assumed by the Hon.' Gentlemen on his, and the othei side, as to the na-, cure of the securities. He apprehended the question could sot be reduced to this. When the proper time arrived, that the concessions could be safely spade, he should be as sincerely disposed and as much rejoiced as any man to agree to them. But lie must protest against whatever arguments or assertions might tend to lull suspicion, and inculcate the opinion that the friends of the Catholics would now succeed in car rying this question. His opinion was quite the re- verse. The circumstances of Europe siuce the last Session were not such as to place this question on a more favourable footing than it had stood before. The petition was then.ordered to lie on the table. Mr. W. SMITH said, ire rose to present a peti don on the same subject, from certain persons, Ito. man Catholics, in the Counties of Warwick and Staf ford. It prayed that domestic nomination might be held as sufficient security for the loyalty and attach ment of the Roman Catholics. He should abstain from any argument en the subject at present. Tile petition was brought up, read, and ordered to be on the table. PARLIAMENTARY REFORM. Sir R. FERGUSON presented a petition from a numerous body of inhabitants of Dunfermline, is Scotland, praying fora Reform ia Parliament. Alter it had been read, Lord COCHRANE praised the character of the petitioners as a body of persons exemplary in the ful filment of every mural duty. They were manufac turers, and he attributed their decay and fail entirely to the heavy taxation under which they ralseured.— , As lung as pensions and places continued to be the reward of the servile and interested, so long would this distress continue. He held the plea of the, Chancellor of the Exchequer to be totally inadequate to afford relief to the people. .Unless the House were purged, ill reindict would be insufficient, whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer applied two mil ' lions - or fifty millions to relieve the people. • Such blettli must ultimately come out of the pockets of the 'people themselves. such applications were concern's- Lib c and itiqe ; and 00419 agriculture and cons [ mime were revived; and those burdens taken off that were bringing us down, we•should soon be involved in indiscriminate destruction. The dreadfully uni lOrtn state of the. country, could only be effectually relieved by a reductios•of the interest of the national debt. AU other attempts were unworthy of conside 'ration, and Ministers would sad, within tbse two i,Nelierhaps before the House met.again, that .:: f e'vlst . t mist take place. Nothing c ould b e d one eer tp j ealmve the poor, but by a reduction o f s ues . and attlitaiy establishments. The poor man-paid-more for the salt and malt taxes than the superior classes twice over. l'ini loan would, to no degree, relieve Such industrious classie as the petitioners. Mr. GEENFELL dtptecosoti susluassestictos Its he had now': eard for the tbird time in that lions, which were neither more ror less than that Parlia ment ought to be guilty of a breach of honour and public faith (Hear, hear.) Such a prop( 'Won coming from the Noble Lord was likely to make a serious impression on the country. Lord COCHRANE replied, that he intended to bring forward a proposition on this siNect, and then would be the proper time to say v.hether such a pro. position might not be adopted without any unjust sacrifice. Lord MILTON was very Touch afraid the Noble Lord was not the only person who entertained opi nions of this kind, which could not he too s..verely censored, and ought not to he listened ro, unless we had attired at a much greater period of distress and calamity than had yet assailed us. The fundholder would have much indeed to comp! i t of, if any pro position of this kind were serionsly entertained. Mr. W. SMITH thought this was a most iinpro. per mode of arguing such a question. He wished to see it taken up on its own grounds, and whenever this should happen, he should have no hesitation in delivering the opinion he entertained of it. The petition was then ordered to lie on the table. ' ACADMICAL INSTITUTION. Mr. WILBERFOkCE rose to present a Petition front certain Members of the Academical Institution, held in Chancery-lane. on the subject of being u-fus ed- their license. He stated the nature of the Society. and added, that he certainly was one of those who assented to the Bill under which this Society had been interrupted; but if the pr-visions of it were at all of a nature to interiere with them, he had certainly misunderstood the tendency of the measure. The Petition was then read. It described the Socie tyto have been instituted in 1793, to have latterly held its meetings at 110, Chancery-lane, for the purpose of discussing philosophical, literary, and historical ques tions ; but their rules did not admit of observations being made on any living character in the United Kingdom. Under the former Act for preventing seditious Meetings, they applied for a license to con• tinue their debates, which was immediately granted. By a deputation of their body, they had applied for a license under t b peseta Act, oa the 15th instant, which had been refused by the Magistrates assembled in full Session. at the Old Bailey, two of the four having declared the Act was intended to put down all political discussion. Under these circumstances it called on the House for such interference in their behalf as they should think fitted to the eccasien. Mr. C. GRAN I' bore testimony to the respectabi lity of toe Petitioners, from the knowledge he had of the m personally. Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, the House must have listened with no common feelings to a Petition like the present. Ititad been objected to the Bill lately passed, that it went to trust too much to the discre tion of the Magistrates, and that the . unheard of power so confided to them might be misused, and exercised' so as to check the greatest privileges of Englishmen. He admitted it was almost impossible to suppose such a construction would be given to the Act as had been put upon it by the Magistrates in the case in question. He should think, however, it was now high time that Ministers should state what were their sentiments on the subj• ct. He did nut now mean to complain of those Magistrates who had so overstepped prudence, and, as he thought, their duty, or to assume that they meant to transgress the law s but, under certain circumstances, pets:ins in their situation were likely to give a law that 'construe lion which they thought would be most agreeable in a certain quarter, in opposition in that which would be dictated to them by their more sober judgment.— He would ask if a law like this ought to be left to the discretion of the Magistrates ? He wished them to remember what were the words of the celebrated Lord Mansfield on the subject of the discretion en. trusted to Magistrates. " The discretion to be exer cised in a Court of Justice," he described to be " a discretion grounded in law, regulated by rule, and not by humour, which might cause the decisions come to to be arbitrary, vague,, and fancifhl." In the present instance. that.whicb had taken place he maintained to have been arbitrary, vague, and fanci ful, and calculated to hold the best privileges of Eng lishmen in check, -if it were- not properly n:et in the first instance. He trusted Ministers would now state the Act io have been totally misunderstood by the Magistrates. If this were not done, he (Sir M. W. Ridley) would then sire notice of a motion fur leave to bring in explain the said Act. Mr. BATHURS'Is knew nothing of what had been done by the Magistrates, but from the state ment contained in the Petition, and therefore could not pretend to decide on the propriety of their con duct. Not knowing what reasons they might have for interfering with the Society in question, he could only say, taking the allegation contained in the Pea don as he found it, that if the Magistrates had thought the Act was intended to put down all political di:- mission, they had misunderstood its object. He wish- ' ed the exercise of the discretion left wjth Magistrates Se be regulated by the language held by Lord Mans field on that Subject, which bad been quoted by the Honourable Baronet.; and that which it was intended to leave with them under the Act lately passed was ly given to them for the purpose of enabling them 'Rs put down those Debating Societies, wbich were made the vehicles of disaffection, and not to put down ,all political discussion whatever. 'Lord MILTON was ignorant of the merits of the 'else; but after what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman, lie hoped Ministers would think some in. (pity necessary, in order to ascertain what had been &ma jaw time conduct of the Magistrates. In other 'pens of the country, persons not equally well inform ed of the means by which they o u g h t t o se e k re d ress , eieight be oppressed hy the same sort of arbitrary .swtharity. Some measure ought to he devised to pe lmet the Act being thus misused. Mr. BROUGHAM thought Ministers could not call the Magistrates to account for their conduct, after giving the power out of their own hands, as tbei bad done by the late Act, This might serve to Harrah them how cautious they ought to be in entrust= log to others a discretion which might be thus mis timed. lit the hands of men like the Right Honour ibleGentleasan (Mr.Batburst,), and hi. Noble Friend /Lord Milton). this discretionary power would be *lc It would not be exerted as it had been in the ew now brought before them. It was for such then . 1 I=asned them to honour th ou ) as Si r Willi am vine and John Jonsithsa Smith, to read the Avt ' as no roan hi drat House had thougbt of thereupon to come to a decision which was fine', which left the p.,rti.s aggrieved without a iv; t2t, He hoped when those who put such a cnnstruo on an Act of Pariliament, had , iccaroli to apply to those in power, in whom thil thus souttlit rece rl . mend themselves that Ministers would hr as neuirst on such applica: ion being made, as by law they n. to be at present. where the juiici..l proceediron o' t s e Nlazistrates were called in question. He th..n mewed I n the of its made t.l convert this Act Ira n an (1 1 g:N:' for Eiflilg all disrtission. even tbat svF o % lad tiil new been Ireely ei.tertaint d in the semina r : et of instrilctinn, and which %VAL only sn'aservi. In to the putposes of education. He partici:la:ly alluded to the course panned by the Vice ChencePor of C. badge on a late occasinn, who, since the passing of this Act, It , d put a it , p to those debates which ware formerly common at that University, and till no.; l ie knew of no attempt having been made to intetietc with a practice so laudable and so ustfttl. The Petition was read, and ordered to be printed. ntstrtv , sim stATE or Mr. BROUGHAM presented a l'ctttion, signed, he might venture to say, by nearly the whole labcato ing population of the town of Birmingham. public meeting had given birth to this petition, nor even bad any public notice been given of its lyingfcr signature; but, without any such means being re sorted to, it was understood that three copies of such a petition were in different parts o' the roan, and in eight and forty hours 10,000 names were signed. Persons of credit and re , pectability attended at there three places, in ()Eder to see that no person signed mere than once, or at all, who did not appear to be 21 years of age. To guard against the disorders to be expected from the assembling a great concourse of persons, it had remained Inlet. ler signature but a few days longer, when the names subscribed to it amount. ed to 12,500. These, be thitught, he was justified in takinA to be the whole, or, nearly the whole, of the labouring population of Bo n7irglia In, 11. e total amount of the population of that town being e,ti mated at fifty nr sixty thotasatid persons. This pe tition had not been framed to forward any party or political views. It was couched its humble and ear nest but most touching language. From reading it be felt satisfied that the representation of the dis• tiess in that quarter Which he had submitted to the House on the 18th of March, fell far short of what it was at that time, or it bad greatly increased since. He now found the poor rates had averaged in the last twelve mantis 9. 4d. in the pound—fur the last six months Its. for the last three mouths ISs. and for the lag lour weeks it amounted to 14s. 4d. and still fell short of what was necessary for the support of the poor by the difference ht•tween 14s. 4d. and 17s. Bd. The Poors' It ors had in tact, doting •he last week or two, tell off more by one hundred, than they had done at any former period. He thought right to say, that to diSl real' like that of these ;iciness no immediate relief could be afforded by that House. To relieve all those whose names sere .igtted to this petition, without including tho.e wh) resided in the vicinity of Birmingham, would squire neatly halt a million. How the Chancellor or e Exchequer expected to relieve the country eenerally by the issue of a million and a half of Exchequer Bills, it would be for him to explain—for his 0411 part, he was convinced that no permanent and sub stantial relief could be afforded, till a change mkt place in our whole commercial system. The Petition was then read. It set forth the pa tience, loyalty, and extreme distress of the petitioners. They only desired to be enabled to procure by their labour, food, clothing, and shelter from the elements ; and denied these humble comforts, which till now the industry of an Et glishinan could always procure, it was betier for Ahem to die than to live, add then they would not experience the wanks of which they have at present to complain, and would be spared the misery of hearing their children cry for bread, which it was not in their power teafford.—The petition was received, and ordered to be printed. RELIEF OF THE POOR. The House having resolved itself into a Committee to consider of an issue of Eichequer fur the re lief of the Poor, The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ruse and kiid, that betore he proceeded to explain the purpose of the proposition which he had to sutnnit to the Committee, be should read the two Rtsolotions in which that proposition was comprised. 'I first Resolution was—" That his 'Mak sty be enahl.:J to issue Exchequer Bills not exceeding 5e1,500,0i,0, to be distributed in Loans, by Commissioners appointed by Parliament, for the Employment of the Poor of Great Britain in Public Works, and the Relief of Manufactures, on condition of security for repa;.- ment." In the next Resolution, which related Ireland, there was a difference as to form, both be cause there existed no parochial funds in that coun try, and on account of anothercircumstance, which he should afterwards explain. This ResolutiOn . wac; " That the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland be empowered to advance, out of the Consolidated Fund of that kingdom, a sum not exceeding £250,000, •for ,the completion of Public Works, or the encouragement of Fisheries, in Ireland, under condition of repayment in a time to be limited."—Oa every former occasion when grants had been proposed to Parliament for any local purpose, a Special Committee had been pre viously appointed, for the purpose of ascertaining the distress, and submitting to the House a specific plan for its relief. In the present case that course of proceed ing was unnecessary, both from the notoriety of the general distress, and the information received limo Committees, by whom, in various shapes, accounts : that distress had been received. As .to t!;, sows which it 'was prriposed to apply to public works, t'.. grounds on wide') the grant would be recrii.mendr... would differ from those on which Parliament ha.; formerly • been applied to fa- assi s tance i n b i r plAr cases. The course in hornier instances bad been to point out the benefits to the country in its cominei relations,• from the completion of the work in favour of which an application aas made. But the Corn missionees who had the disposal of the money would particularly consider the influence the pi osecution of 'any public work would have on s the emplcynient . ef the present unemployed p. 1340611. Timir detigel . would be directed by. the compound :mood:a-a:ion o f the utility of the work, and to• the relief which wcw!si be afforded to We persontemployed in it. There wrre B. great variety of public work; which.bad already rs- r 1 i st • g Y to y iir2l I :rt. pI u.;eg the II i to g (if vtic C fite 11 ti fa. tl NIII% , net ;fci tr. uch I in • tete 2l c be a r of few uni• d in the oaf V pe- 1 y or ear. ling ditty I the rhat nce. the last and acd port and •he 1101 i; ti- ere I uire t; e tut I pwr )411 tub- .COK Pa - heir nit ; 110 W LW, hen • he, the itch Vitt ;VIM re- ER the t to lona F.rit tr) , to ited • of ■