Star. — London, England, 1831-03-02 00:00:00

~.~;' TWO! r:. - - 71 7 " - --- /-::,.',/,• • - f'...\, -.:!.:;.' f/ if - - • ' 't" • , r ‘ ~...h...,-,,,_,.....,,:__.:.1 1.7_..........: '7' T,i..... ,-t , • C -- ' : itt/ '-' V . :1.-1.. ~ !__ aili r ' . I li Fol 4 ' ' •' - .:. a 'l' r -P '~ W'R‘ to he brought in at a Ai t ure time by Ministers for future consideration. Hb lordship for his own past thought it most desirable thatconstituests should have a proper controul over their Representatives: vet it would he in expedient to make the duration of Parliament so short that members should be in a state of perpetual canvass with the opinions of their constituents, and therefore unable to advise, deliberate, and decide upon the great questions which might he brought before them with that free. dont which should prevail in the Legislature of the great empire, with that confidence which a generous people of a great country ought to rant when the questions were brought forward. At present the Go vernment had no measure of the kind to propose, satisfied, as they were that if they could provide for the constituents the means of enabling diem to elect their own representatives, it would be better not to narrow that question by another which has its own doubts, difficulties, and oisataeles to contend with. There was another question, of which no mention whatever was made in the bill—a question which had obtained of late ninny advocates and much general support—his lordship alluded to the question of the ballot. There was, no doubt, much to recom mend the adoption of that measure (Loud cries of hear, and no, no.) —But more insidious arguments than had been used in favour of the Ballot, had never fallen under his Lordship's eye% and he hoped the house would pause before it sanctioned the motion of the hon. member for Bridport, who proposed the ballot to be the mode of elec tion in all cases. (Cheers.) That mode of election, whilst it on the one band, favoured the conscientious voters, it on the other hand, afforded • cover to much fraud and much crime, it exposed a man to the influence of bad passions, and while it prevented bad influence over the good, it prevented good influence over the bad. (Loud cheers). /fie lordship thought it very doubtful that the 'people of chip country, who had always been accustomed to vote openly, and to state their opinions in the face of day, would ever resort to concealment in the exercise of their most important privilege. (Cheers.) He was bound, moreover, to say, that it appeared doubtful whether there ought to be in the community any class of persons wholly irresponsible, and that the ballot did create an irre sponsible power no man could doubt. He did not think the ballot would eonnteract the influence of different classes of society,or that it would coun teract aristocratic influence. He did not think it would counteract the in fluence of the town, but even if it did he would not like to sec any irrespon sible power confided in the hands of any one man, or of any body of men, knowing that man is a being whose mind is clouded by a variety of errors, and influenced by every variety of passion and of feeling. He would next say a few words as to the merits of the plan. in the first place, great objections might be urged against the measure by those who think that every thing of this kind is an innovation, and a departure from the wisdom of our ancestors. These men will say, "As our an cestors have thought fit that Old Sarum should send members to pulls. silent, let Old Sarum send them still. (Hear.) To that he would an swer---Our ancestors said, let large towns send members ; and be would say Old Sarum is not a large town • but Birmingham and Manchester ere large towns, and therefore let them send members—(Loud cheers); and in saying so, he believed that he was acting more in the spirit of our ancestors than if he were to say, exclude Birmingham and Man chester, and let Old Sarum have members. Let no man say, that because Old Sarum, in the time of Edward the Third, sent members, that we, by permitting the Old Sarum of the present day to send members, are following the principles of our ancestors. tie knew it would be said that bankers, merchants, and lawyers, who have gained admitance to the house by means of these boroughs, will now be excluded. He doubted that proposition very much, for no measure of reform could prevent learning, wealth, and capacity, front having their due influence upon the great body of the constituents, and in popular boroughs that influence 'would preponderate. As an instance of the influence of learning and talent upon the constituents of popular bo- roughs, he would cite the case of his hon. friend the Attorney-Genera— (hear, hear), and his lordship was sure that lawyers ;of eminence and merchants of respectability would continue to be elected, and to bring to the deliberations of the house that learning and that species of know. ledge which qualifies men to take part in their discussions. He might again be told that the effect of this measure will be to destroy the in fluence and power of the aristocracy, but that he denied ; and he even asserted, that the influence of the Aristocracy will be much im proved. He meant that Aristocracy which mingles with the people. which knows their wants, which receives their neighbours hospitably, and which moves along with the people. It was not in human nature that such an aristocracy must not have great influence in the election of Members deemed worthy to serve their country. Such an aristocracy would always have such an influence, as every good man would say they ought to have ; but if gentlemen mean to say that it will destroy the influence of an aristocracy which does not live among the people, which knows nothing of the people, and cares nothing for the people —which seeks tank without merit, which seeks for places without talent, and: for pensions without services (bear, hear)—for such an aristocracy he had no sympathy. The sooner the influence of that species of aristocracy was carried-away with the corruption in which that influence has thriven, the better for the country, and the better for every wholesome stud invigorating influence.— (Loud cheering.) The question was, whether, without some large measure of Reform, they could carry on the affairs of the country, with the countenance and with the support of - the people. (Hear, hear, hear.) His Lordship then added, I believe we cannot. (Hear, bear.) It may be a question, whether we can or cannot resist that particular plan of Reform ; but there is no question whatever but that you must either reform, or the British Constitution must perish. (Cheers, and cries of no, no.) This house, in its unreformed state, had nothing to look to, but the countenance and the support and the sympa thy of the nation ; but it is now quite clear, that if you refuse Reform, that sympathy will be foe the future withheld; and I ask you whe ther, when the Ministers of the Crown are convinced, when they serve a master who has permitted them to lay their propositions before the house, when they come forward to declare they think Reform is indis pensable, when the people out of doors, by multitudes of petitions, and by millions of voices, are calling for the same thing, whether the House of Commons will say we alone arc the judges of our security—(hear, hear,)—we despise the propositions of the Ministers of the Crown, we despise the warning voice of the people, whom we profess to represent, and we will keep our power any how against all remonstrances— against all petitions, and take our chance of the dreadful consequences that may come. I appeal in my turn to the aristocracy of England.— My opinion of the gentlemen of England is, that in any gem crisis of the country they have never been found wanting, that when the country was engaged in war against the national enemy, they were almost the foremost to come forward, that when burthens were to be supported they were ever ready to support those burthens with the rest of their fellow. subjects, and I ask them now, when a great sacrifice is to be made which will show their generosity—which will evince their public spirit —which will identity them for the future with the people around them. I ask them to come forward in such circumstances, to give the Throne stability, to the Parliament strength. to the ceunty peace.l (Cond. nued cheering.) Whatever may be the result of these proposi tions ; however they may be met by this house, the King's Ministers will find that they have done their duty. They have hitherto pro ceeded in a straight forward course, neither looking for the sup port of a particular class, nor fearing die disapprobation and the frown of another. (Hear.) Wherever stern duty led them against popular ; feeling, they have noteven in such circumstances hesitated to persevere. By a firm, legitimate exercise of law, those disimbances which pre- ! sailed in many parts of England, when they came into office, have now, I trust been happily terminated by vigorous exertions of aws, which were passed before they entered into office ; the agitations, so extensive! and so extreme, have been made, in a great degree, to subside into ! peace. At all events they cannot be accused of leaning to popttler error, or seeking to ingratiate themselves in niece popular inconsis,ent mour'• therefore I think they deserve to be believed, when they come forward with a measure of reform, of the greatest consequence to the well-being of this country. (Hear, hear.) They ought to-night to be believed, when they say, in the face of foie house, and also of the nation at large, that they have no sinister or unworthy motive— (He..tr)—but that they bring it for ward because they believe it to be ne. I cessary to the welfare of this country. 'limy are interested in he future prosperity and welfare, and they r.o think that this measure will tend to promote the one, and to insure the other. (Loud cheers.) They think of Reform, that it is the may measure that is calculated to in sure permanency to those institutions • itich have so long been the ad miration of foreign countries—on account of their popular spirit, but whichcannot exist much longer —( Cries of " Oh, oh," front the Oppo sition B.nelies)—unless by an Infusion of due popular spillt rou snow that you ate determined not to be the representative of small classes, of mirth:Oar leterests—but that you will fonu a body, which representing the people, which springing front the people, which having r. sympathy with the people, can fairly call upon the people to support any future burthens, and to struggle with any future difficulties they may hove to encoueter, eunfident that those who seek it are united beau and hand with themselves and they look only like themselves, to the glory and the welfare of E ngland.—His Lordship sat down, apparently very much fatigued, amidst loud anti continued cheering. Sir JOHN SEMI IGHT seconded the motion, but in consequence of the great confusion and noise that prevailed in the gallery, the Hon ourable Baronet was very inaudibly heard. He came down totally un acquainted with the plus , of Reform which it was the intention of cis Majesty's Ministers to propose to the House, but he was assured, how. ever, that Reform was the only safeguard to the institutions of the country, and it was upon this principle that he seconded the motion which the Noble Lord who had just sat down, had so clearly, so die. &Icily, and so eloquently supported. Sir R. INGLIS opposed the motion. He said that he felt the cliff cult), of the situation in which he was placed in having to address the House when it was under the influence of so much excitement by senti ments so very different from what bad ever been before expressed within its walls. Ile was not adequate to the task himself, but he hoped that there were Members present who were more able, and who would resist the measure that had just been presented. The Hon. Bart deprecated the manner in which the measure had been brought before the House. They had been told that it was a Government measure, but he repro. beta the mode that had been adopted. A Member of the House, not a Minister of the Crown, had come down and stigmatized the whole House, by asserting that they were not the representatives of the people. The Noble Lord who brought forward the measure had said that he was supported in his measure by the demands of the people - -(Cheers.) He had talked of the numerous demands of the millions of the people—he bad in one instance used the word request, but he IMIFF " Wi r .l 11 1 1 'V; st. 4 . • PSI . . "'WM I seemed to prefer the word demand. He (Sir R. Inglis) did not be lieve that the people demanded teform.—(Hear, hear.) Lord J. RUSSELL rose to explain. Sir R. INGLIS resumed. It was his firm belief that the people did not ask fee Reform so strenuously as had been represented by the noble lord. And even if they did, Parliament were much better judges than they were of what species of Reform, if any, ought to be granted. Members were sent to that house to legislate according to the interests of those who had sent them there. He admitted that there was excite ment, but it had arisen from the example given by other countries, as it arose forty years ago, on the breaking out of the first French revolt'. don. He had for this the authority of M. Condorcet. " Since the ex. plosion of liberty in France," says Condorcet, " a fermentation has shevm itself in England, and has more than once disconcerted Mi. nisterial operations. The opening of Parliament will infallibly be the occasion of a reform.' The hon. member proceeded to say, that ten years ago reform county meetings bad been held to an extent sufficient to warrant declamators to assert that the refusal of reform would lead to a revolution. The fe ardente and to deeedeste of the noble lord was, that the people demanded reform. This he (Sir B. Inglis) denied ; but the members of that house were bound to consider, not what was the will of the people from day to day, but what, in thei r deliberate judgment, was for the best in. terest of the kingdom. In the case of the Roman Catholics, he had laid stress on the prayers of the people for the conservation of the Protestant rights ; but then the people were not so good a judge of what they had. He denied that the present measure, that the increase of the electors would add at all to freedom. Members were am sent here to represent a particular slot; but, as waded in the election writs, to consult for the good of the whole kingdom. He denied that at any period popula tion had formed the basis of the re resentation. Here the hon. member made some observations on the ori gi n of elective franchises,whichwere not t distinctly heard. He contended t tat the boroughs were too numerous to have been selected for their population. Many great towns were left unre presented, and this was an important fact; for those who, like a noble ord, lately a member of that house, stated themselves to be not for innovation, but for restoration, and to be enemies of all rash measures. He called on that noble and learned lord to defend the measures pro. posed by the noble Lord (Russell) against being considered rash and inconsiderate. With respect to what the noble lord had said about Old Sarum, it was his opinion, and he believed, that the fiat right of send. ing numbers for that playa, was given in order to enable o ~ruin earl (tialirbary) to sit in that house. The noble lord bad read a paper, from which it appeared that a person of the name of Pitt sat in that house in right of possessing a very large diamond. There had also been two persons who had eat in that house in the time of Elisabeth for places, the right of franchise being given them at the instance of one of itcr favourites. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord's measure was tun restora tion. it was revolution. When Halifax was passed over, it panned 8,400 inhabitants ; Wakefield was also a considerable town ; Man. cheater possessed 4,500. He asked whether L would be an ad vantage to any town, however large its population, to return members ? Had Manchester prospered lees than Liverpool ? Had it ever wanted advocates for its interest in that house ? The noble lord said no man was bound to pay taxa, who was no. represented. Yet at an election the minority always remained without a representative. The measure would admit into that house almost only one interest, one class, one talent, the talent of mob oratory.--(Laughter.) Many who were, or had been, the ornament of that house, had been returned by what was for the first time in that house termed, under ministerial authority, rotten boroughs. Except by the means of close boroughs, how slid Lord Chatham, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Fox, 'Mr. Burke, Mr. Canning, said many others, get into the house? It was only by such boroughs tha. young men calculated by birth, education, and rank, could ever hope to be in. troduced for the first time into the house, unless, indeed, by chance they happened to be perfectly versed with that mob oratory, which was cal culated to please and gratify those individuals to whom this bill proposed to give the elective franchise. The noble lord had said, too, that those who were either lawyers, or merchants, or in any other way whatever connected with commerce would somehow or other (he had not said how) get into Parliament. The return of such persona ought to be certain, because it was essential for the House that they should have persons In it capable of assisting and finding them judgments on the highly-important matters of law and commerce, which from time to time came before the House. There was another great interest which would be passed over—that of the colonies. With the exception of the Members for Middlesex, Waterford, Clare, Kent, and Staffordshire, there were very few who at present took an active interest in debates, who had not been elected by the same means as Mr. Burke and Mr. Fox. Masked when, and in what respect, was the constitution ever different from what it was at present ; except in this respect, that the House was formerly mush more dependent on the Crown, when its addresses were presented by the Speaker on Ills knees, wh en Sheriffs were directed to return those recommended by the Privy Council, when Members were imprisoned for interfering with the Civil List. After chiug instances of the Duchess of Norfolk, the Earl of Date, Lord Bur leign, and others, causing the return of members, he asked that before the elective system should he for the first time altered, that the Crown should have restored to it the use of its negative. He then said, that at no time had the house been more incorrupt titan it was at prevent. No sensible reformer could believe any one Member to be, as was the ease formerly, influenced in the giving of his vote by pecuhiary considera tions. The corruption by places and party influence had also greatly diminished. The blouse Lad been gradually rising independent of the Crown, of the aristocracy, and of every undue in fl uence. The noble lord ha di spoken of petitione, formerly the House was never met by pc. 'Worn, The influence of the press over the House was now beyond comparison greater than formerly. At present, whatever any member did, was subject to controul, emulated with the quickness of lighten. ing, and canvassed throughout the whole kingdom. This was the real reform. It was thus that the House was Ira& alive to the impressions of the people, acceding not to petitions and demands, but to reason anti a calm exposition of the wants and wishes of the nation. Formerly no thing could be known of the debates but through a gross breach of privila;e, and whenever any short abstract was given of them, it was printed as that of the debates of some fictitious political club. A cir cumstance of paramount importance was, that never had such an exten. sive popular representation as now proposed existed, with a free press 'on the one hand, anti a monarchy on the other. The system had been tried in Spain, in France, and in Sicily. It was now again undergoing • trial in Fmnce, and what would be the issue the noble lord would hardly take upon himself to say. The hon. member for Middlesex, on a forma occasion, on presenting a petition against the interference of Pars in elections, hadsaid that the Peers should be sent back to their owr house. He (Sir it. Inglis), would not again state, that the Ring and the Peers ' hail always had an influence in elections, but he must be allowed to say, that, whatever might be the wishes of the hon. member to retain the peers in their house, be would be pressed forward by the torrent, and would sweep the Peers Douse clean in the course of ten years. (Hear.) Let those who pretended to represent the opinions of Mr. Canning, answer his words on this subject, when he said." that a reformed House lof Commons would absorb the legislative and executive powers." IVith i respect to the duration of parliaments, he would observe, that since ! Henry V 111. the average of the duration of parliaments had been only I two years and eight months. As to the ballot, it implied a scrutiny before every election. He would conclude by calling on government not to destroy a constitution which had formed the glory of England and the envy of foreigners, and which had insured to us 1110 TC internal peace, move true liberty, more commercial prosperity, and more social j. happiness, than bad ever fallen to any other country. Sit C. 8311 T H said he wished to ',take a few observations in vintli. • cation of the vote he should give, nide.: *veld tri , o vindicate ;he votes 1 of many others, who, like himself, would vote iliffetently on .he quer. tion now from what they had done on former occasions. He thought it , must be admitted that the time was now come when some reform was necessary. He came Ina different conciutdon on the subject now from who, he had formerly come to, because the public opinion had undergone i a change, and he thought it the duty of :he representatives of the people to conform to it.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it was dire that the nomination of Members to that House by the aristocracy should at least be contracted, and that the just influence of the Peernge would beat be preserved by making direly concessions to the people.— (Hear, hear.) The Member for the Univentity of Oxford said that by the Noble Lord's plan the colonies would he unrepresented; hut for what purpose had the colonies local legislatures P— ile did not think that the people had any thing to fear from the in. finence of the crown in that house; but, certainly the influence of the aristocracy required to be curtailed. He thought the noble lord would have done better if he had made property the foundation of the franchise rather titan population in the country towns. The noble lord said, the question should be now settled, and not left for future discussion ; but .he noble lord bad left that most important part of the subject, the duration of parliament, for future discussion. He thought the noble lord should have proposed more effectual measures for the prevention of bribery and corruption. The oath, he thought, should be administered' to the member as well as to the elector. lie should not enter farther' into detail, but thought it his duty to declare his conviction of the ne cessity of reform. Mr. TWISS said, that having heard the noble lord explain the new Constitution which he proposed to give to the country, he felt anxious to give some expression to the objections to the noble lord's plan of a constitution that crowded un his mind. (Hear, hear, hear.) —though he felt the great difficulty of obtaining the attention of the House after the excitement the noble lord's extra. ordinary proposal had produced. (Hear, hear, hear.) As he had always differed with the noble lord on the subject of reform, the noble lord would do him the justice to believe that the dissent aid al arm with which he had heard the noble lord's proposal cop changing the con stitution was no new-born dream. (Hear, ear)h He believed duo two short months ago no radical reformer in England could dream that his Majesty's ministers would propose to the House of Commons a scheme for sweeping away all the landmarks of the British Constitution II the charters of the boroughs of England. (Hear, hear.) The attempt certainly was not without precedent—that precedent was to be found in the worst period of our history, in the reign of Charles 11. and James IL when, under colour of law, and with the assistance of Judge Jeffries, a similar attempt was made to disfranchise the boa roughs of England; but it was defeated by the public reprobation as an attack upon the ancient constitution of the country. It brined a part of the arbitrary proceedings, which deprived the Monarch of his throne; and a new Parliament, that might be eon. "WM W 7 • shirred the founders of the Coostitudon, which the Whigs boasted as their own work, restored the charters of the boroughs as an es sential wt of the Ginstitution ; and William, in his celebrated declaration, made it an important part of the benefits he promised the people of that all the boroughs should be restated to their anelent li berties.li That Parliament which restored the Constitution of England declared, that they represented all the estates of the Commons of this realm. Under that C,onstitntion all Par liaments had been since returned ; and he trusted that the scandalous usurpation of James 11. that took their charters from the boroughs for the purpose of increasing the po wer of the Crown. would not now be imitated, by an equally scandalous usurpation, under the pretence of in creasirg the power of the people. The noble lord said, all the am. mouthy of the realm should be represented in that house ; but his plan only included the inhabitants of great towns, and even of those, only such as rented houses of 101. a year. His plan was but a change of the fran chise firom one kind of property to another. The noble lord asked, what would be die surprise of a stranger who heard of the greatness of England freedom of her institutions, the extent of her manufactures and com merce, and the happiness of her people, when he found that the repre sentation of the people of Parliament represented in one place a mound of earth, in another a small village, and in another a park ;but if the stranger knew that all the greatness and all the glories of the country were pined by that repreientadon, would he not be infinitely more astonished to find a change was attempted. tinder the present state of the representation, whenever corruption was found to exist, it was care fully inquired into—witnesses were examined, and when proved eon. vicuon ensued, and justice was executed; but here wasa measure that. without any examination of witnesses—without any proof of corruption _.disregarding all delinquency, proposed to pass one sweeping bill of pains and penalties, by which chartered rights were to be for ever destroyed. (Hear, hear.) In defense of this proceeding it was said that the measure was not proposed as a punishment of guilt, but .be. cause the boroughs to he disfranchised had fallen under the inflect*. of the Crown and the aristocracy. He would ask, were diere twenty gentlemen within the walls of parliament who did not feel, and would am acknowledge to each other, though they did nu. choose to do it publicly, that the will of the people already but too often over. powered the calm judgment of their representatives; and that no government cap stand in opposition to the popular feeling, or scarcely in opposition to popular clamour. (Bear, hear.) This arose from the great change that took place in the practice of the *awake. don at the dna of the revolution. Before that period the Crown in ge. neral had strength to reign alone, only applying to Parliament occa. aionally far supplies ; bot since then the Crown could not proceed in the business of Government without the Parliament, and it was nem sary for that purpose that the Crown should have influence in bow houses of Parliament, or the Government could not have sufficient strength to cony on their measures against the opposition excited by the desire of popularity. (Hear.) That was the real danger against they had to guard—the danger was not from the influence of the Crown, or of the Peers, on that house, but from the intiti ence of the po sitions of the people, who might if unrestrained pull down the pillars of the connitution.—( Hear.) As to the balance of the constitution, that was best preserved and regulated 14 public opinion; but if by such a measure as that proposed the balance was deranged, though the great interests of land and trade would be still represented, there were great and important interests, which he might call the mind lance* interests, including the colonial and professional interests, which now occupy the attention of Parliament, all of which axe now adequately represented, but which, under the plan of the noble lord, would and Ito representatives, and in this way the balance would beiinniediately destroyed. The land and trade would no doubt be represented, but where would all the other interests of the coup ,' try and representatives? Their only representation now is through the medium of close boroughs, which, have given introduction w all the members who have most distinguished themselves in that house on the great and important questions of civil and religious liberty. It wai itecnotary that such boroughs should remain, as attiardbig the only means of representation to all classes of the community ; and the plan pro posed by the noble lord did not open any channel of representation for numerous classes of the community in place of those which lie closes. By such a plan the people must lose power, which will be taken from them to he given to the two great interests of land and trade. He could be under no apprehension now from the influence of the Crown; the popular opinion was fully sufficient to prevent it ; the influence the peo ple had to ear was from the great interests of land and trade—the plan of the Noble Lord must disturb that balance of interest whish was most important to the people should be maintained. The persons having in. fluence In the remaining boroughs will, ia deference to popular opt. rdon, be obligal to nominate some member of their own family, instead of introducing a person whose ability to serve his country constituted his claim. The Noble Lord would open other channels by which the in terats of the people should find representatives in that House ; but had out done so. The Noble Lovers plan was first to destroy the ancient char ters, and secondly through the breach to pour in a popular flood, which could not be foreseen; this was not done to quality , the large influence possessed by the land and trade of the country,still less to give strength to the Crown, which, in the present state df Europe, it might require, nor even to give representatives to great towns; but for the purpose of mill ing into the service of the country the wisdom of the inhabitants of the county towns renting houses of 101. (Hear, hear.) For this purpose so much of the representation of all the miscellaneous interests of the noun. try was to be shut out, that the =dermatitis which persons of rank and education had introduced into boroughs, might be corrected by the wis dom of those householders—those people of narrow habits—of scanty information--shopkeepers and small attorneys. (Murmurs.) They might be respectable in their callings, but he could quote s& good &judge of hu man nature as any he was addressing, and with whom he entirely agreed, in support of his opinion that they did not possess the wisdom that could improve the representation in that House. The authority be meant was the author of the book of " Ecclesisaticus."—(A loud laugh.)— He was sorry to hear any book of the sacred volume excite a laugh In that House. fie thought it was entitled togreat respect, and the author, speaking on this very point, said of such persoos—" AU these tens. to elicit hands. and every one Is wise in his work; without them cannel a city be inhabited; but they shall not be sout,ht for in public council." Amongst that class of persons were to be. iouud those shallow politi cians with whom reduction of taxation was every thing, and not, and tithes, and public credit nothing.—(No, no.) Amongst that class was to be sought those intended by the Noble Lacers Bill to correct the abuses of that House, and this was the way in which Minister' redeemed their pledges.—(Hear, hear.) No doubt .his extension of the franchise would produce much intriguing, and a great en deavour to turn the new acquired power to account ; but for any good purpose it would do worse than nothing. The noble lord said his plan would reduce the expense of elections. Never sea there a greater fal lacy ; as the electors would be increased the expense would be increased. (No, no.) He would say yea, yes, there might not be the same expense in bringing electors to the poll, but the expense of canvassing would be increased--the expense of a scrutiny would be increased, and bribery would still continue. It had been often argued in that House that while high duties were continued it was impossible to prevent con tracted trade. The argument was the same, if these men of narrow minds had something to give which men of wealth were willing to;buy, the purchase and sale would take place, and no legislation could prevent it. These were some of the defects of the noble lord's plan, and he wished to know whether it would satisfy the people. Why yes, for a time, they say it will satisfy them, and then they mean to come for the rest.—( Hear.) That is what the reformers mean, though it may not be what the Ministers mean. With %that face could they consent to sacilfies one-half of the Coustitution now, that they may sacrifice the other hall at a future time. (Hear, hear.) He did not accuse Government of having such au intention, but he did blame them for having given ti: authority of their names to unreasonable ex peeditions—to an impracticable plan of Reform, which, instead of pro. posing, they should, flan the beginning, have declared to be impossi ble. (Hear, hese.) When those who supported Ministers saw the plan they propesrl, must they not feel on this question as they felt on the Civil List ; must they not say, " If this be all you Casa do to disturb the public feeling, and disappoint the public expects ions, would it not be better to give up die government than to carry it on by such measures." (Hear, hear.) It was said the people cried for re form ; but lie thought the wisdom of the country would have to contd. der whether that cry was the result of reason or of temporary excite ment. Why, the noble lord himself ackoowledged that but a then time ago the people were indifferent on the subject of reform.-- Since then the House of Commons had reduced taxation, and re pealed the only restraints oo religious liberty. These were the acts by which a House of Commons not thought unfit foe the discharge of its duties three or four yeats ago, was to become so odious as not to be endured. (Hear, hear.) What was the cause the House of Commons had become so unpopular ? He world not sup. pose that the advance of reforming opinions could arise from fear ; but probably from an opinion that there was something hi the example of France for us to imitate. But was the contagious excitement likely to last in this country ? He should say not, because it was not founded in reason. No man would say that the circumstances under which. the people of France were called to assert their rights could arise in this country. (Hear.) The movement in France, hosever justifiable, had been productive of many evils, both to commerce and domestic quiet; and were the people of England, when they saw neighbouring nations hazard ing every thing to obtain a constitution like theirs, were they to be called to hazard every thing to get rid of their constitution ? (Hear.) The die- trees hi this country could not be the cause, for the people of Eng land saw distress increase in France and Belgium, and the demand for their own manufactures was increased. And if di stress produced re volution, it should never be forgotten, that revolution produced dis tress.—(()rat cheering.) Another cause, which had move effect than all the rest, was the evil of agitation, which Government must use its power to repress, if any liberty qr property was to be preserved. (Hear.) It was time that the law which gives the liberty of public meeting and of the press should not be perverted against the people, fa' , whose security it was intended.—(Hear, hear.) The objects which the country had been led at present to desire were such as no change in the constitution could effect. Ministers bad acknowledged that they could not seduce taxation. The noble teed, is a in ISIS. bad said that a fondness for war was not the el an tageechieal Government, but of a popular Government. which laid oo heavier math* than any other Government could. In support of this opinion he had now the authority and the example of the French people, who pleated OOP! ' r . F. r' V q .. .. --~ the tricoloured flag in the summer of 1830, and were waving it for n ar in the spring of 1831. What prevented the government of this country carrying their pledge of mien .4 , roent into effect but the apprehen s i on of war from the popular Goverment of France and elgiunm P The bon and learned gent. concluded by observing that the 1 party of poi. deal reformers in the country would hardly wish a revolution if thy ) would remain satisfied with the measures produced by the noble lord, which he (Mr. Toles) considered as a mere evasion of the real q u(sot . r . of Reform. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the hoe and learned gentleman (Mr. H. Twiu) bad come forward with ecry strong language in support of his arguinents—.he had said that the et) for reform had been produced by agitation—he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)did not think that there was at the present time, in FARl att e at least, any great symptoms of agitation (hear), he deprecated ant! dreaded the great and excessive evils of revolution as much as the honourable and learned member did—and it was the duty of the and of that House to take such steps as would plu m any revolution in the country—there steps had been taken in the measure before the House. The hon. and learned gentleman h a d argued with great ability certainly respecting nomination boroughs ; but no person can deny that great disadvantages arose from these be. roughs, inasmuch as they enabled individuals possessing large property to return what member they chose, thereby disturbing the Ministers of the day, and interfering with the good government of the country—th e proposition brought before the Douse that night was applied with I view to diminish the evils resulting from nomination boroughs, and give to the middling classes that right of franchise, which he contended they ought to possess. The hon. and learned gentleman says, if the fro. chise be so extended, there would be a danger of a revolution in th e country; does the bon. Gentleman mean to say that his Majesty's me. sent Government is not popular amongst the middling classes P He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was satisfied that the present Go. 'aliment was popular with the large majority of the people of Eng. land. He did not say that the House of .Commons, as at present constituted, was so popular, hence it was that he was opposed to the present mode of representation—(hear, hear) —feeling confident as he uid, that the middling daises desired neither change in the present form of government, nor revolution, he thought that the present measure could he proposed with safety, because is placed in the hands of that class the real power of choosing their own representatives, without which no form of government could be ever safe. (Hear.) The hon. and learned gentleman had ridiculed the middling classes of England, as being unworthy of having the franchise extended to them. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was satisfied that the middling classes would return their members to parliament wilt honesty and inte grity. The honourable member for Oxford had said that his Ma jesty's Minister's had proposed the extent of population u the test for bestowing die elective franchise ; such was not die case, for pro perty was considered as well as the amount of population. The hon. and learned gentleman who spoke last alluded to the charter of James the Second. The very ohject the present Government had in view was to establish all that had been contemplated by that charter.— He was one of those theorists who were of opinion that the House of Commons ought to be the representation of the people • but the Hon. Gent. has looked beck to the period of Charles the Se cond, when the people of England possessed a House of Commons of this kind, which, he states, destroyed the Aristocracy of the country : he ought to recollect, however, and to have stated,. that the Government of that period was swayed by military dictation. (Hear.) It had also been said that the pre. sent measure would not give satisfaction ; no doubt many there were among reformers, who might think that it did not go far enough; but those individuals would be found, after all, in the minority. The lion. gentleman will find himself mistaken, if he thinks that the middling thee% are not for reform ; and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was equally certain that the present measure would satisfy theta; the great object of his whole political life was to place the franchisee in the hands of these classes ; he had freely sacrificed some part of his feelings in support of the measure, which he was not disposed at present to go beyond. Mr. 11. TWISS hoped he would be allowed one word in explanation. He had no. ridiculed the middling classes of England ; neither had he disparaged them ; although be certainly did think it was objec. tionable to place so much power in their hands, as he was convinced amongst the middling ranks the most dangerous class of politicians was to be found. Load I. GOWER was of opinion that it wasa palpable error in poll. tics to state that the distresses of the country, numerous and of frequent recurrence as they might be, were to be attributed to the representation of the House of Commons. —(•' Hear," from the Oppoeition.) The noble lord then proceeded to read extracts from a aecent number of tae Edin. burgh Review, to show that the people of Scotland were rich, happy, and virtuous, which proved that the outcry against the representation of that country was a farce, or else the statements of the writer were false. He objected to the measure of the noble lord as being speculative in its nature. Pitt, Wyndham, and Canning, were now in their glares, but he should witness how the followers of those great men at present in the house acted as regarded this Important measure. Very few, indeed, could take up their mantles; they could see the beauty of the constitu tion, and thought it worth defending. They used their giant energies In support of it, and placed themselves between the people and that plague of revolution called reform. They thought in the constitution of that house there was a sufficient guarantee for the safety of all our valuable establishments. It might, perhaps, be said, that those great men were mistaken, but convinced he was that they would never have consisted that the bonds of justice and fair dealing should be' rear asunder. They felt that the portals might be low by which somerenteted parliament, but that when entered, integrity should carry them on without stumbling. Wisdom and virtue might enter those portals, and not lose sight of the proper mime to be adopted. In the observations of the noble lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) he appeared to dread the in. fluence that Members might, as the House was then constituted, have over Ministers. No doubt the noble lord and his Majesty's government had discovered, during the shots time they had held office, that it was far more difficult to legislate from the side of the House they now occu. pied, than that which they had lately left. (Hear, heat.) He was not surprised at the difficulties they had to encounter. It was said by this measure independent men would be introduced into Parliament. He was no prophet; but, in his opinion, it would be attended with great risk and doubts. (Loud cries of hear, hear.) The noble lord had alluded to the present attorney.general having been elected for an open borough by popular opinion. He was not surprised that such should be the case, that learned gentleman stood high in his profession, and in reputation as an honest man, and was first brought into notice by being engaged In the most memorable trial this country ever knew. (Hear.) But he (Lord G.) thought it was too much that that Hon. Gentleman and others who thought with him, should charge those who were of a different opinion who wishing to promote alarm and dissatisfaction in the country.—(Hear.) He did not wish to raise a false alarm, but he had certainly seen danger when the tricoloured flag was carried in through the streets of London. When that flag was raised rriPttoc: he hailed it with delight--he hoped it would long con. tissue to flourish and Moran the m.onstitutional liberty of that country ; but he was old enough to remember when 800,000 men rose up in arms when that flag was displayed, to drive it from s he shores of England.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped this subject would meet with a calm aid dispassionate discussion on aU sides. There were many grounds en which he could raise strong objections, but he would not at that time detain the House. He had not changed his opinion on the principles of Reform, although subjects Oa private nature made it extremely painful for him to adopt the course he felt it his duty to put. sue. (Hear, hear.) He was not at all to be diverted by the abuse he might receive, either by the press or from other channels—for his opposition to what were called liberal measures—all such attacks he utterly despised. (Hear, hear.) If he pursued a course likely to promote his individual comfort, and spare himself much pain and anxiety, it would have been one diametrically opposite to the one be did. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had said that the present measure emanated from the Ministers of the Crown, and still such a measure ought to be carried by the Government. (Hear.) He could not see any force in the latter remark, but as it emanated from ministers, he (Lord Gower) was willing to let it go through a magi, that would bring it before the house and the country more in dr tail. (Hear.) He mast, however, say, that he did not pay any more respect to a measure because it came from Government. Neither WAS his confidence in the present administration such as to destroy his con fidence in high authorities who uniformly opposed reform. The im pression on his mind was that the principle would prove injurious. At the same time. from the candour, ability, and zeal, with which the noble lord had brought forward the measure, he would not oppose it in its first stage, although he should feel called upon to do so afterwards. The noble lord expressed his thanks for the attention with which the house had listened to him. Sir R. PEEL rose, and other members gave way. The right hot. but_ said, the object of his rising was to ask the noble lord opposite s question. The burgesses and others now possessed the right of voung in boroughs, and which right during their lifetime was not to be taker away. He wished, therefore, to ask if such right would descend to their heirs, or whether they would be disfranchised ? Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, the elective franchise as now ere eked would certainly die with the present possessors. Mr. HUME moved that the debate be adjourned until five o'clock this day.—Agreed to. BILEACH 07 PRIVILEGE. Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from Alexander Jacobs (who wa* yesterday committed to Newgate). The petitioner stated that he uttered the offensive words in a moment of excitation. Liu' expressed the greatest regret and contrition. He therefore hoped that he might be ordered to attend at the bar of the House and expree such regret. The petition was }nought up and ordered to be printed. Mr. O'CONNELL then gave notice that at the sitting : Howe tomorrow (this day) he should move that the rent:o-L: 'x brought to the bar. MUTINY SILL. eirJ. GRAHAM brought in the Marine Mutiny Bill, with!. WAS read a first time A few petitions were presernad, alai the House Adjourned at Trenty Minutes Ware Cu o'Cloeir. INDON 2 oy Joe* (Anil, at the t'i ~► Orrics, Na 1, Pkketi-place, Temp's Bar. ' 1