Star. — London, England, 1810-01-30 00:00:00

tie most disti"g uts . 0 deserve ince. Ilis . fhg . r here c o urt ?ttar: : th H ar hour, attain U BE . ~elf with . gt The .Nol opinion, eats t he nitres: ry . Member rd theY vv racier as t o , s ; and h i ms elf ha had been !) fie I ationally tr ng the ni ot practii ki r , g in th , said on th had Lack . e t h e mon aced him : re. The charts and adduced be ouse would tuated by us declaring the Noble Sir JOHN minutes b ee n triet. {;.r the ► ild be thrt , •sc.nld m t .1 d on to „, f ,„ of th • the pros J ure in th • , d a right oil suppo • . IT. NAB the t o come he last n • laytiry v 's e, see 'iv, be c.l „,,, • , v. :t • ',t, for lb( tt to be it ~it Th e e CIIA tr) did not to the q Q• nary ; but th T t ke two ins Ed just s ad • lonic to he rial diet Ie .ot requin t• o pecoliai o the ci us oust NI .line On es- • i.stigati nv omirrei of ould m d-. o questi th been acql :11; xcessary he Lble a.:tions ad :Tote of' tg, night be to appointin ich He, for I rentary m- however, r), tot guid ntcfr pintmen • instance e Nob ► of for on vas thought ;, to been that : of **justice his este a ( the *Lich di :hat oblisnel) espressil tbie and in y tat ttae ;our lit ton t red, rice to' 'tote to aat. unendr oal mot first jointed ells Sir teiraor 51.11 pl ( ttr, t t tites, irote I chi— end ti t ;hew tutt w of a *le par- Loral ba:ls he hat ) care tan orni- cr.nten t cir- Noble )ring were Mr. ?rope been had. there linis~ Lord erelit bad o nly have N4.1)1 o .1:1(1 intrYl tit ;. atiou~ r 1; g hest to bt o eired • ,13,4 tble and en terprising Officer for the ' ,lied victory, on one who had done so , e it as Lord Gacnbier, in the present Lordship concleded by moving, beihre the House a Cory of the Minutes held on board the Gladiator, in Pont on the 3il of J u ly, Igoe, for the Trial of Lord non, and, with a catidonr wmcn Num gave Ministers notice of Lord, his Colleague, had-mid, that Lord Gambier had delayed sending in ships to support him. Lord Gambier himself allowed, " that a lapse of time had taken place." If . there was any distinction between the charge and the admission, Lord Gambier's was the strongest. A lapse of time, he feared was a lapse of victory. It was a lapse of a tide. The old Pro verb says, 66 Time and tide wait for no man."— LordGambier thought they would, but he found him self mistaken. The Noble Lord, his colleague, was appointed- to conduct the atta. k —appointed 6y the Admiralty for that purpose ; and his orders should' have been obeyed 'as the Commander in Chief.— .Lord Gambier's principal concern seems to have been to przserve the fleet. If Lord Nelson, at the i battle of the Nile, or in that in which he lost kis life, • had acted on this principle, he would never have been crowned with the laurels he so bravely won, nor would the thanks of that House and the ho nours of his Sovereign have so gloriously distin guished him. Lord Gambier's plan seemed to be a desire to preserve his Majesty's fleet—that of his No ble Colleague was to destroy that of the enemy.— He had never heard that the Articles of War held out an instruction to preserve the fleet. The general view of gallant officers was to obtain victory. As to Lord Gambier, he never heard he had pretended to have done any service on this occasion ; his only me rit seemed to lie in what- he had omitted to do. That might, indeed, be wise and prudent ' • but it could never be the object of a Vote of Thanks. Mi nisters had, however, convicted themselves—they had advised his Majesty to honour iris Noble Col league with a Red Ribbon, and this would be in fact to stnp him of all its value. Hoiv came Ministers to appoint the Noble Lord and approve so highly of all he. had done ? If they gave a Vote of Thanks to Lord Gambier, they would do injustice to his Noble Colleague. In the Minutes it appeared that his No ble Colleague made a signal for assistance at five o'clock in the morning, and none was given till two in the afternoon. The shoals and batteries had not been removed ; they remained the same as in the morning ; and if there was any danger in them, it was no greater in the morning than it was in the af ternoon. Our ships were as likely to suffer from them at the one time as at the other. Under these circumstances, he thought it necessary the Minutes should be produced. It had been done in the case of Colonel Cawthorne, which was of infinitely less impor.:ance to the public. He should conceive there fore he did not do his duty if he did not support the motion made by his Noble colleague. Mr. YORKE said, the question before the House was, whether the minutes of the trial or the sentence should be laid before them? To produce the former he did not conceive could be necessary. The Noble Lord's statement under every circumstance was un supp3rted. Much had been said of the Noble Lord's gallantry. he believed very justly, but he was sorry l pursued the line of conduct he did. He rejoiced that a Gentleman was present who was on the Court Martial that could contradict the injurious assertions of the Noble Lord. The Hoi. Baronet was pretty careful while there as td his facts, in speaking of the Noble Lord as having had the c onirct of the whole affair and ben entire unsupported, hid exagg greatly. The Hon. Gentleman then spoke at slme length in defence of the conduct of Lord Garr:lien lie w;,s justified in feeling anxious for the preservation of his ships. The Noble Lord, with all his gallantry, was but a young Officer, and, prior to the attack in the Basque Roads, had never commanded a line of battle ship. Lord Gambier was an old and experien ced Commander; his bravery was well known. in the glorious action on the Ist of June he was the first to break the line of the enemy. When he spoke of Ministers wishing to screen themselves from blame for their conduct with respect to this affair, though he did not know that any blame could possibly attach to their conduct through the whole business ; yet he thought, that if they were culpable in any one in stance, it was in selecting him (Lord Cochrane) to exe cute the-enterprise. It was a departure from the re gular line of conduct. There were senior Officers who ought to have been employed, who would in all probability have displayed equal courage if they had not possessed the Noble Lord's caution in so eminent a degree as to fire the combustibles when a mile and a half distant from the enemy. Mr. W. WYNNE said, that it appeared to him to be a case of opinion in which Lord Cochrane's opi nion was on one side, and every other Officer's on the the other. Under such circumstances he thought it was not for the House to interfere with the decision of the Court Martial. He therefore voted for the amend ment. Mr. WILBERFORCE took a view of both sides of the question. He thought the House called upon to cast the severest stigma on those who had formed the Court-Martial that had ever been thrown on any set of men whatever. The sentence was what the House o:-ght to confine themselves i.e. If it had been ambiguous it would then have been for them to have taken a different line of conduct ; but when it redoun ed so much to his honour, and in such unequivocal terms, all that could be said was, the Noble Lord dif fered from them in opinion. I. was to' e remen b -red he who was now to be thanked for preserving our ships had formerly been thanked for breaking the line, in Lord Howe's victory.—This circumstance must con vince the Hon. Baronet that Lord Gambier could do something in that line, for eminence in which he was so ready to bestow praise. If they did any thing with respect to the Court-Martial, it ought to be against the men who composed it, and not against their decision. Lord NEWARK would not vote for the motion of the Noble Lord, because he conceived no just grounds had been 1 Lid before the House to induce them to vote for it. The Noble Lord, in his opinion, had brought forward grent and serious charges which would not meet support. Sir CHARLES HAMILTON thought if the mi nutes of the Court-Martial were produced, this House could not interfere. The jurisdiction under which the gallant Lord had been tried was a competent one, and it was their duty to ascertain where the fault, if any, lay. The Hop. Baronet believed that the fault . . - ,lisped, was imputable the present mo some instances Lord (Coch kad actually over." RESFORD said, he could not content iving a silent vote on the present ques ible Lord who made the motion had, in st a severe reflection on the Court and ies. He (Captain Beresford) knew er of that Court-Martial; and he be. were Officers of as high honour and the Noble Lord. He also knew the id he believed them worthy of credit. lad been a very strong witness against al done by Lord Cochrane. (A crdr.ef begged pardon • he found he had un transgressed a rule of the House, in men lame of a Member—it was owing to ice—he had much rather be at sea than at House.— (As universal laugh.)—He the Court Marual what he then repeated, Gambier acted as the Noble Lord who 'ion wished him to do, he would have imself, and our ships would have been on Noble Lord had forgot how he formed id log-books is favour of the evidence to :dare the Court Martial. He hoped the . I do kim the justice to believe, he was no motive but a sense of public duty, in ig his sentiments in opposing the motion Lord. ORDE . said he could not conceive why , s should be called for. Lord Gambier d by a Court Martial; and lie could not production of the minutes, because it :owing a side-way censure on the Court, make it very irksome to Officers when, discharge that duty. TLETON instanced the case of Captain .he Esser, in which it had been resolved •oceedings of a Court Martial were liable to hat House ; from which he inferred they to ask for the Minutek and as such he ,out the Motion. RRYAT said, Ministers had, on the first Session, contended that the House ought to a decision without information ; and night, that they ought not even to vote for without information. He could not, there vhy, in the present•instance, the House ihed on for a vote of praise more than of .thout having information. He thought le honour of Lord Gambier, the Minutes produced ; for, where something was con. as generally supposed there was something NC. LOR of the EXCHEQUER. said rise to oppose, but to a mend the motion. q uestion which was to follow, it might be to produce the sentence of the Court Mar here was no occa.sion for the minutes. In istances cited by the Hon. Gentleman who sat down, of Ministers having asked the wait for infoirmation, there was a very ma. :rote from the present question ; and it did re the acuteness and distinctness of judgMent ir to that Hon. Gentleman to point it out. :ase of last night, a subject was before the Ilich they could each of them easily deter h;s own knowledge ; but in this case, au in ion had already taken place,.before a tribunal !in to the subject ; erirtertainly. the House rot think of calling for the minutes, in order ;Lion the conduct of the individuil who had luitted; though they might, if it was thought iry, do so with respect to the Court itself. The Lord had stated, that the. House should be N how they countenanced Inch a proceeding as Thanks to Lord Gambier, because Ministers able to shelter themselves from blame, for mg 3n Officer from Parliamentary interest. his own part, did not know of . any interest possessed by Lord Gambier. If, '1 , any thing could shew that Ministers were tried by Parliamentary interest, in their ap ,nts of Officers, he thought he might fairly the appointment of the Noble Lord himself. ,ble Lord had complained there was. no Prose this Court Martial. If the Noliolu.Lord had any necessary in it, be should himself have it person, since it was in consequence of his ion, that the Admiralty bad thought it due, :e to the character of Lid Gambier, to insti- Court Martial, to inquire into the conduct, he Noble Lord who made the =don had so ly censured by the letter which he had written, his intention to oppose the vote of thanks, that referring to the log-books of the fleet. r All these circumstances, he hoped and trusted 'lre House would, when a vote of thanks should led to an officer who had achieved a great ser- Ois c minty, distinguish his merits by agreeing it motion. He concluded by moving, as an Invent, that the word 4 , Minutes" in the origi )tiou he left out, and the word 44 Sentence" be in its 'stead." _ _ _ FRANCIS BURDETT said, this was a most( irdinary case, and was highly deserving the itlar attention of the House. The Noble Lord !edged his character in the most explicit man hit, if the Minutes were produced, he would that the Court Martial bad acted partially, iat Lord Gambier *was not deserving the thanks . ere going to be moved in his favour ; and he ht it was imposiible to believe that the Noble would do so without being able to fulfil what id promised: The Right Honourable Gentle opposite had said that the House should be tented wits "the sentence ; that was what the le Lord complained of ; and it seemed there things connected.witb it which could only be '°PerlY explained by the Minutes. In looking cur ly over the Minutes this morning, he thought were some things . which appeared to be against a.ord Gambier. The Right Honourable Gentleman taunted his Noble Colleague v ith not hay been the prosecutor of Lord Gambier; but his Colleague certainly did not deserve it. ; 1 d no wish to b r in g him to a Court Martial. ~ and thought Lord Gambier had not done all tnS;llt have done ; and when he found that he 1 .0 be rewarded by a vote of thanks, he thouht '"" to kis own character to oppose su ch a Mis. •s' ' tea. .dia .7 .. 7611figrilrig wig* ty, com b; S t . , , plying with die *wi th ef Lord to mon. • tikd.by a Ceert-biartial. He Snot either hate been He respected - bWimdleip's-tharitrterl, tifilleteente tried there or in that House.—With all regard for the opportunities elf Ong him "oboe of. aed M Noble Lord (Cochrane), he would not be offended always in a high strain .of.praise- and estimation, Bus at him for saying that be did not feel himself entitled he had not understood that Lord Gambier took any to put his character and experience against those of of the merit of the achievement. He had not, ata , • the majority, of his profession. proached the French fleet nearer than seven Mr. WHITBREAD said, that on the simple Ministers had praised Lord Gambier for his discre• question, Whether the Minutes 4hould be produced tion ; he hoped they had not intended this instance in or not ?—he should have no hesitation in saying they their enumeration of its proofs. It became the House should, in order to see whether what had been done to be cautiotts_of the honours which were 'entrus.. was deserving the Thanks of the House. Highly as ted to their distribution. They had now exhausted he thought of the gallantry of the Noble Lord, he all but their last, their single and summary gift of the deemed the Admiralty wrong in having appointed Peerage. But the Noble Lord near him (Lord Cod). him to that particular command ; because there were rane) ought to be heard; his judgment and charac many Officers in the fleet who were his seniors, who ter, his signal gallantry and signal honours, deserved be thought (without meaning any disparagement of the high attention of the House. Even his feelings,_ the Noble Lord) would have executed it as ably as led as the y were p erha p s astray by an excess of he did. The Honourable Gentleman who spoke strength and sensibility, deserved all the attention last had said the Noble Lord had, when called on for which could be paid to them. his reasons for dissenting from the Vote of Thanks, Mr. LYT I'LETON felt himself called on to ex.; given the Admiralty a wrong answer. He thought plain his former opinion. He had reminded the: indeed he had ; for, as a Member of the House of House of a precedent for the revision of Courts Mar- Commons, the Noble Lord should have refused to tial ; but in stating this fact, he merely wished to give them any answer. In the next place, he thought bring a new authority to the privileges of that As the Admiralty should not in consequence have or- sembly. He conceived that a Naval Court was not, dered a COurt Martial ; for they had already access in the full sense of the word, definitive. In the mi to the log-book of the fleet to which the Noble Lord litary law, an appeal lay from a Court Martial to his referred, and so far approved Lord Gambier's con- Majesty's Courts at Westminster. He concluded that duct as to give notice of a motion for a vote of thanks, there must be found a similar check on a Court of The Honourable Officer who spoke from underthe gal- Naval Officers. In voting for the Minister, he pledged lery (Sir C. Hamilton) had, however, put the House himself to nothing; he had not y et found materials in a very strange situation, for he hadinformed them for his opinion,- and he was satisfied to pause till he that the Noble Lord (Cochrane) gave orders to some had found them. young men who commanded fireships, and that some Captain BERESFORD made a few observations obeyed, and others disobeyed them. The Hon. Offi- on what had fallen from Lord Cochrane, respecting cer said further, that those who disobeyed had been the comparative fidelity of the log-books produced on promoted by the Admiralty ; while those who obey. the Trial. ed had been refused promotion. If this were the The question was now called for; and, upon a di r case, what was become of the discipline of the Navy ?. vision, there appeared—For the Amendment 171 , a- He owned he was much surprised at the information; Against it 19—Majority against Lord Cochrane's and concluded by saying, that he should vote for the Motion, 142. motion of the Noble Lord. I THANKS TO LORD GAMBIER. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER in justification cf Sir C. HAMILTO, explained, the discipline of the Navy. I rose to propose a vote of thanks to Lord Gambier for Mr. ROSE said, that be understood whenever an ; his eminent services in destroying the French fleet irt officer of a fire-ship destroyed a ship of the enemy, he i Basque Roads. The Right Honourable Gentleman was always promoted. I conceived it would be unnecessary for him to take up Mr. PONSONBY could not agree to the motion the time of the House in detailing the services which of the Noble Lord ; he felt all respect for his gallan- I the Noble Lord had performed, as from the nature of try, for his zeal, for the motives under which he I the debate which had just concluded, they were in brought forward the measure; but it contained a vio-lpossession of every information they could desire.-Lr lation of solemn and recognised principles—it was IHe might fairly anticipate that the House ha vi ng opposed by all that was sacred and high in the nature I judged it inexpedient to produce the minutes of the of national justice. Lord Gambier had been tried by } Court Martial, would not be anxious to listen to any a competent tribunal—he had been acquitted—and it arguments in suppott of the motion which he was was not consistent with the spirit of the British law that about to submit. It had however been stated by he should a second time, undergo trial on the same some Gentlemen that the nature of the service was cause. Let the case of a culprit be as weighty as it not such as to justify the House to vote its thanks to was possible to conceive—even the murder of the , the Noble Lord. When however the nature of that King—and let him be once acquitted, no new trial service was known and considered, it was impossible could affect that man, though the strongest new evi- that the House could come to any other conclusion dence of his guilt might start up. So sacred is the than a vote of thanks. The conduct of Lord Gambier feeling of justice. But, if the Noble Lord's opinion on that occasion was so eminent, that even those who were to be acted upon, the most serious detriment, t were disposed to object to thanks being voted on or. because the most alarming insecurity, might arise to dinary occasions, and who grounded themselves on naval and military men. They would have no tribu- precedent, would not find any for withholding them nit to which they could look up with confidence.— from Commanders in Chief when they had achieved The House had of course a power superior to all other any great service. The sentence of the very Court decision—a power, for instance, to punish her judges. Martial was proof that the service was performed It punished them in the case of ship money, and in in such a manner as to deserve thanks ; he had not other cases—but he could not conceive that 12 men, merely superintended the enterprise, but had, as the such as composed the Court on Lord Gambier—o ffs - sentence a ffi rmed, conducted it with regard to the cers of known bravery and honour—could intentio- interest of the State, and with peculiar zeal.. The nally give an erroneous and partial judgment. In etecution of the service deserved, therefore, peculiar saying this, he should however reserve his opinion to notice, and he would shortly detain the House by a farther progress of the debate, on the propriety of stating some of the circumstanced attending the ac. voting the Thanks to Lord Gambier. complishment of it. The French fleet had escaped Lord COCHRANE stated, that in consequence from Brest on the 23d March ; they were seen by of some conversation which had occurred with some Admiral Stopford, who had at that time three sail of Members of the Admiralty Board, it had been known the line and some small frigates in Basque Roads. that he would resist the vote of thanks. He had then The French fleet consisted of eight sail of the line, received the letter which had been already noticed in and several frigates. Admiral Stopford gave the the debate. His answer to it was—that one which signal that the enemy had escaped, and proceeded to ought to have been given : he entered into no perso- blockade ttrem with his small force, until he was nal statement ;he simply referred to his 16g-book.— I joined by four sail more. The Rochefort squadron, There was no trick, no evasion in that reference. consisting of three ships of the line, having joined the The log-book contained all the docu ments that were Brest fleet, continued 12to be blockaded ben y these sev rd Gam. en applicable, or ought to be brought fo rward. (Hole sail until the Ilth r th of April, wh Lo arrived, made those arrangements for his Lordship read a long extract from the log-book). bier having It had been asserted, that he ought t o have come for.. the attack, which was begun by the Mediator , Captain Wooldridge. There were some circumstances which ward to prosecute : that he ought t o have made his he must mention with respect to this galant Officer, charge boldly, and thrown himself before the countr y which the House would be glad to hear, as they as the author of the charge. But he was not to be dictated to; he felt the seriousness of the effect, if reflected the greatest credit upon the gallantry of that meritorious Officer. This heavy fin-ship urged by him ; he knew the responsibility which it would draw downi he thought of Admiral Byng.— having been prepared,and the crew dismissed, the only [Here the Noble Lord entered into a series of obser- persons remaining on board were Capt. Wooldridge, nations on the nature of the manceuvres in Basque the Lieutenant, and the gunner. When the ship ex. Roads.] He proceeded to say, that he had imploded the fate of these gallant men were, that the posed a great duty and a great hazard on himself ; , Captain and Lieutenant escaped with their lives, but but he felt himself adequate to both. His own cha-1 the Gunner was blown to pieces.—(Hear, h e a r .)— rac rer was involved. His conduct had ev en been The attack being commenced on the night of the impeached ; but he was willing to suffer all things, 12th successfully, was followed up the next day by the extreme of contempt and scorn, expulsion from the Noble Lord with peculiar gallantry • the copse. that House, and infamy through th e world, if he did quence was, that no less than three sail of the line and a 50-gun ship were completely destroyed. The n ot substantiate the facts which he was then p led g ed House would not be disposed, he trusted, to refuse to lay before them. Evidence had been brought to I its thanks for services when performed under such disprove his testimony : he had wish ed to dis p rove great peril and risk, exposed to the enemies own that evidence ; but permission had been refused him. There were some Officers, whose conduct (Here Mr. batteries, and with other advantages, which in bar. Yorke called to order. It was unfair and unusual in : hour they could bring for the protection of their that House, he said, to bring forward charges against i own Ye tsels. It was an enterprise of great and p ecu . those who were not present , eit her b y themselves or liar hazard and difficulty. The result had been highly injurious to the enemy, and had the effect of their friends. He put it to the Noble Lord's magnani, not only disabling, but of removing the enemy's whole miry, if not to his justice, to consider the nature of his squadron from the campaign. Was not that an ob. present proceeding.) His Lordship resumed, and after some observations, concluded by saying, that the . ject of great magnitude ? The fleet, no doubt, was . destined to perform some great operations, which this whole affair was singularly dark ; was still involved in mystery ; and that its proceedings, when fully de. l service had rendered them not only incapable of acs dared, would strike the country with terror. complishing, but had entirely annihilated-them. -Of Mr. TIERNEY felt it wrong to disturb the past this service in which Lord Gambier had - been em. acts of justice. He could not persuade himself to , ployed and had so actively executed, the utmost at. suspect any touch of partiality in the tribunal which i tenuon had been paid to the interests of the State— tried Lord Gambier. But the question was not of not more than 20 lives had been lost, and not more • the Noble Lord's ineocence , but of his reward. The I than SO or 40 wounded — th is was the extent of t he honours of the House were high things—dear and loss--(Hear; hear.) - The Right Hon. Gentlemo i s valuable ; but dear only because they implied merit concluded withhanks of moving— .. .1 hal the i t..lb House be gins to Admiral Lent i Gambier, service, the ice z in eal te lu a tt a n c znt, abi l ity, and arteinion to his r br.whilh the cret , lch fret wife eke the enetny or inßasque-roade e ba , —valuable only because even that merit must be rare. M lrntaotioi tkele wn Honour* too frequently bestowed, lost their value and became signs of nothing but the weakness which I ' laeiehed them, or the worthlessness on' which they j tea" were driven askare w stetly destroyed, sad disabled *pi were to be thrown away. In this case there was no' service." __ apparent service worthy of their thanks. He would I Load COCHRMM warned the House, that even is verdict was not vote for the minutes, but in h is vote was to be undo. e lu sive upo n character that ; • there was auother teibunal to Iliiiich even that Haase t his ...Hy, .-J• - - H e of more not having been accomplished, vi H e to the NoblF Lord who had submitted tb 11 he tion. He WAS prepared to prove, that in si was Officers who' had not obeyed the Noble it but rune) were promoted, and those who Mc_ attended to his signals were passed over