Star. — London, England, 1810-05-10 00:00:00

117 0 6 isigiend e for that L a d Chief su . ce which had -- - ---- -- -11r Tri v itiba "m ti " 5311.16 . , ed no o e terruption whatever, -although amyl •no content . verb but erf h is i eiclal functions immediately. adjoining tendeci.**. IT fgr turbulent plumes. • when he en tered _ the. Hall itsel4 on his Ssti WILBPAPOkCE wet& " -- d enema ge the . fteo- . theclsuly/ell--; j u dicia l plc to petition on ail occasions ; but when under the ler . f ro m the Court of Sings Bench, far, front wit' -- would justify the character form cif a petition they presented what, he had alMost ne ning any conduct that inscribed to t h e Meeting . by the. Hon. Gentleman, his said in thelangts . .age of the . law, bring the 3-friuse into " hatred and conteinpt," they • via seated with the utmost deference.— was calculated to cordsluP ' - the debate With respect to the Middlesex Peti- ought not to receive e that which was sub s t ant i a lly o f. teem "r — expressed the same opinion which be • enter- fensere, because the style was guarded. Thee (the tioa ,d i he ntis occasion. He dedattd that in neither Petitioners) presented it not with a view of doing tie--ree° there a ppear to exist th e slightest disposition theniseties good, but to do the House ' evil. their the contrary, he believed it was , condUct'sheyeed they had a radical distrust , and al theeaseivuel'oie-nce- - - ° ll give *sh of the petitioners not to do so: , For :Most amounted to denying that House to be a branch loos Wish anxious td not , after candidly examining the 1 (tithe - Legislature. If ever again the?. IA part, he could mean to assert his o f the petition under-debate, find any mad- : thiir ilignity.they ought to reject that petition. He matter or offensive expression. As to the • regretted that Gentlemen who sometimes expressed ro v" is - sible ;lum b e r of signatures, this paucity was notoriously ! concern at the language in which the H ouse *as ad according to the established custom of the Liver dressed, shotfid speak of others as they did, k now i ng w t rr e a few s igned for the whole. But if, according that honest men may t a k e diff erent v i ews o f the same t s eke doctrine of some Gen tlemen, the whole of those subject ; unless they h a d reason to t hi n k t h e i r judg ‘,.ho a pproved of any petition should subscribe to it, went formed from corrupt Motives, it was not right t uc h a doctrine ought to be made public and univer... l to express-themselves in suc h la nguage as h ad b een ribed—for otherwise the contrary, whith used. On the questing respecting the late expedition s4slygePscnreerally the preient course,.might render mint :he had taken a middle course . He . could not ap petitions questionable, as to the sentiment of the body ; prove of the expedition, nor could he condemn it in from w hom they professed to co me. The Right Hon. i such strong terms as some Gentleme n did, as b e i ng G ent leman (the Chancellor o f the Exchequer) had ; alike repugnant to common sense and good intention. a e e eged diet this petition . contained nothing but insult, l All Administratims had been accused in a s imil ar d t h a t premeditated too ; but he (Mr. Wardle) 1 way for the last thirty years. The Duke of Port. 711 Id lot conceive that any great , like t h e ' hind's Administration and those of Mr. Pitt and Mr. ally too ' bob .i Liver) of London could meditate any set ts thing.— : Fox had been each in turn charged- with incapacity,, c ould, if he might so express himself, condescend toy and want of integrity. These charges h a d b ec ome 1 o lfor , an insult—( Hear , hear , on the Ministerial knchet) so common that they had lost their weight, and being „eyes, he would repeat, condescend, and even de- I applied to celery Administration could not be believed grade itself. For, in iris judgment, the party that : even when just. He was not insensible of the excel iffered an insult even degraded itself more than the i hence of the Constitution. When he knew great men p a rty that received it. Vas it to be supposed, that if ; had come to this country but little acquainted with the party from whom this petition came meant to in- 1 its laws, who, astonished at what they saw, con}d not suit the House, that that party could not have more ! but contemplate those principles with wonder and effectually contrived to convey that insult through the 1 admiration which produced such happy effects, was medium of resolutions ? If it were said that such re- ; his opinion of it to be shaken by the abuse of the solutions might be prosecuted for libels, he would i vulgar ?—After a farther eulogium onahe Constitu k, whether the Livery of London had not as much j tion, he concluded declaring he would never wish to tight to express their opinipn on public affairs as that ; reject a petition in which unintentional improprieties }louse could pretend to, and whether the apprchen- !of language might Appear ; but, elites he s •sv one, 'ion of such a prosecution was likely to firm any ! which he could only consider as a studied insult, in cause of restraint if the Livery were disposed freely tended to degrade the House in the e} es of the nu. is animadvert upon the conduct, or.as some Gentle. tion, he shoidd wish it to be rejected, but in snchi men would impress it, to insult the dignity of that terms as would not deter others from stating tl;eir i House? Why then should it be supposed. that if r a tezances to the House, and seeking redress at their tir Livery meant to insult • they should resort to a se- i Node so little suited to the complete gratification of _Mr. PONSONBY declared his intention to vote ! Stir purpose as a petition tolhat House itself, which ore this occasion as lie had done with regard to the 1 eteisarily subjected thew tiarettreiree, ? Thz: people petitions of Westminster and Middlesex. He would l lal an unquestionable right to declare their senti- vote for the reception of thz petition, but he certainly I stets upon every public question ; and why should would not do so it' lie thought it contained a studied"! they be restrained ? His opinion of. their rights lie insult to the House: This, howevet, he could not i iiways had and always would maintain both in and 'persuade himself to think, because he could not sup-I out of that House ; but in maintaining that or any p9se'that men petitioning for any object, would deem other opinion, lie had no intention to convey.an insult. .it prudent to use insulting language. Indeed, if they r e/te e; the passages irk, this petition deemed Most 'could so intend, they could not be serious in their. demise, that which asked the House, Where was wish to obtain the object in view ; and if their pen is Dignity and Honour ? was, he observed, most tion were rejected, that rejection would he a reproach inticularly ohjected to. But he, would ask those only upon themselves. aggravated by th: considers- ' vho pressed the objection, where was the dignity, or tion that the conduct which produced it would ra ttleAnxxte, or justice of-die House, when it refused Cher tend to perpetuate than, to remedy the evil com e investigate the charge brought forward by his plained of. Upon these grounds he must think it Honourable Friend (Mr. Mad,locks) against two improbable that the petitioners could intend to insult Inhere of that House (Lord Castlereagh and Me. the House. With regard to the assertion of the Ho , • .ceval) relative to the. sale of seats, when it pre- nourable Gentleman (Mr. Wardle) that the Gen tented his Hen. Friend from proving the fact—when, tlemen on his side of the House were more culpable in a word, it acquitted the delinquents, because, for- than Ministers in the case he referred to, because sooth, the delinquency Was frequent—because the ac- they, as he alledged, defended the sale of seats ; this cased hat 1 c nothing more than had been done he- assertiiiii, as well as others used in that House, and fine?—.ln adverting to this' circumstance, be begged out of doors, served to prove the existence of a s studied to say, that the charge whirl it produced against that plan of misrepresentation respecting the conduct House, did not apply more tothe Noble Lord (Castle. of those who were ,the subjects of the Honour- Leigh) and those about him than e to the gentlemen on able Gentleman's censure. For the fact was, that ill:: opposite side who defei;ded him. His language so far froM defending. the Sale of Sete, there wets I no thiesubject might he mieintee preted ; but be could I actually a;hill in that House at the time alluded to otliciitue to say, that by the conduct of both. pm- ;to prohibit such tr ilk altogether ; which Bill was toon the occasion referred to, it was. casually dis- I brought in by an H..nouralJle Friend of his (Mr.' wired, indeed distinctly avowed, that the purchase I Curwen) and es h ch hill he himself and those with Netts he that House had been the costtinual practice • whom he had the him eir to act, used every exertion 'il Adminstratinns. How Alen could the Livery in their power to hav carried into . a law. That it of London be condemned for asking that. House seemed unsuitable to the plait he had mentioned to sore was its dignity, where was* its j , justice, Sifter : have any regard to _justice, to candour, or to. truth. 'minding such a discovery, and giving impunity : From all, indeed diat he had heard or road of late, whose who.confessed a gross violation of its best pro- i there was no doubt on his mind of the establishment raeges ? A Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Perceval) :of a system for propagating scandat.- - -for promoting kid distinctly stated in that House, that there was no I an impression that all public menwere alike—without question upon which both sides were so completely t principle or any regard to th: public interest, and en-i agreed as in a decided opposition to reform ; and 1 gaged in seeking only their own sinister objects.— why should he be surprised' to find bit own words the I Against that D ouse these -sl enders were, he observ loguage of the public ? Yet•he now denounced the i of, particularly levelled. What, that any assembly topktition 4 his mix Imignage as extremely offensive. i composed of Gentlemen of property, talents, and edu- The Petitioners were. it appeared, rather unlucky in' cation, should be actuated only by love'of place or a Ttpeatia,g the Right Hon. Gentleman's words. But, ;view of plunder—could be blind to every consideration in truth, from %% hat the Right lion. Gentleman and iof character, and look only to the purNuit of gain ? elses had maintained in the course of 'his and a re- i Was it possible that there could exist such an unbar t'nt discussion, it seemed impossible for the people !. y public—such a nation of tools , as te) believe such 'A present any s t a t ement o f t h e ir grievances to that : language ? Sure lie was, that there was a great deal House, unless the precise words in which that •state- '; of integrity and li mom cm both sides oldie House, for a ka should be dr a w e e u ! -,•, we r e distinctly pointed . he never doubted the integrity or honour of any Gen- j etd. Unless such a coarse indeed were chalked nut, 1 tleman, because he happened to differ from him in 1 itwas not possible to guard any petition against the ' opinion. There were indeed in all times differences I cavilling, hypocritical spirit, which was now so pre- of opinion among the most honourable men upon the 'Nene and which there was too much reason to fear most important topics. Many honourable men were Proceeded from a desire to stifle the voice of the pen- : found to differ even es to the nature of our Constitn- Ple. He would be sorry that : such a desire should ' tion. That celebrated man, Lord Somers, was, it "Ist in air quarter, and particulaily in that House, would be recollected, once impeached before the from whi c h the people ha d a right to expe/f very dif. : House of Lords, through the spi; it of party, and - 1 ferent conduct, That the people had any intention ; the influence of misrepresentation, and yet did any to insult that House, he distinctly denied. If they ; one now believe that Lord Somers was not an really meant to insult, he did not think that they i honest.man ; or did any one now believe that that, would petition at all. But he firmly believed that 1 great leader of the Tories was not an honest man ? 1 da people looked to that House as their most essen- , Yet that Noble Lord was once the subject of consi -I'4 support. It was not indeed to that House that the ! derable censure. But atter the convulsions which People ever obj ected, but that corruption, peculation . agitated this country—after all the men of property, which there was notoriously so much ; education and reflection had become disgusted with n to compl a in. S uc h was hi s fi xe d o pinion—and the conduct of those who by the bye pretended to be 'he thought otherwis e , he would have pursued a dif. all virtuous, and the restoration of Charles the Se ll:flit line of conduct. He fully believed that the Pe- cond took place, Lord Clarendon rendered a most tainners in this case had no other object than to coin- important service. When, through the enthusi- Plain of what they deemed an abuse. If he could astir loyalty of the day, it was proposed to grant such , conceive that their intention was to insult the House, a revenue toCharles as should make it unnecessary for 1 1: declared t h at h e s h ould have no h es i tat i on i n vot i ng him afterwards to refer to Parliament, Lord Claren ! r the rejection of their Petition —but his conception don, notwithstanding his devotion to Monarchy, sue lel decidedly opposite, he would vote for its re- cessfuhiy resisted the idea, declaring that he would teetion. ! never consent to render the Crown independent of Mr• JACOB disclaim e d the intention imputed to ' Parliament. Accordingly the'Monarch never forgot' him by Coe last V speaker , of reflecting upon the Li- the resistance of Clarendon, and e after giving him en,' of London, the ae 'orit of whom, he believed, ' .up to abuse, sold. him to his enemies. Reverting to a very honest, iud di ustrio Y us, well-conducted, and •to the indiscriminate censure cast upon all pub- is in-, ar•i r 4k - icleobe . OP did not much %verse. Mr. WARBLE explained that he did not mean tq accuse the Right Honeurable Gentleman and his friends of defending the purchase of seats i that. House, but of maintaining in the case of Lord Castle.. reagh and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that such purchases ought not to be punished. The House then divided, and the numbers Torre— roe receiving the Petition, 36—Against 128. Majority for rejecting the Petition, 92. PENAL. LAWS. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY rose according to no tice, and stated that what he was going to propose was not to alter, but to carry into execution laws which already existed. It was not his intention to surprise the House, if it was its pleatthe it might postpone the derision till it had taken time to cofiiider on the merits of what he was abbot to advance; it : was a measure not leis important than that which he ; had *toady proposed. The object of punishment was to prevent the commission of crimes, and this by three methods ; Ist, by terror of punishment ; 2d, by riutting it out of the power of an individual to corn. ,settcrimes ;.• end 3d, by the reformation of the often der. With the exception of some county gaols, this last mode could be .seldom found to exist here. A I rve st e em of reform had been proposed, to put which in was, with the consent of the House, his inten tion. It was necessary to take a view of the circum stances relative to the transportation of convicts to New South Wales. It was not till the time of Charles 11. after the Restoration, that transportation itself was Hrst adopted and carried into effect; those cri minals who were clersyable were sent to North Awe.' rids. The first case is instanced in Justice Keeling's Reports, which weze well worthy the attention of the House. He says, that " those persons who were not sent away as perpetual slaves. but to work for seven years io the plantations, the three last of which they received wages, in order to enable them to raise a stock for defraying the expellees of their return home." It will he seen that this was carefully attended to till the 4th of Ceo. 1. then transportation was first ad ipted for p:a.sons guilty of petty larceny. Grand larceny,it was known, was the denominatiem for all rob beries above toe value of 12d. while every thing under that value was called petty larceny. In this way things rested till the revolution in America ren dere.: transportation there impossible. Previous to this, he would observe, that certain persons had been I contracted with there to receive the convicts, bound by iudentur, so that by this means the poor were subjected to labour, but the rich were only exiles, as they had it in their rawer to purchase their slavery. 1'1 , 1779, when open war was declared, the new sys tem was adapted ; helore that, however, in 1776, the power was first given of employing convicts to la boor in the dock-yards, or on board the ktilki In - 17711, an Act of Parliament was pasetl, giving power to transp- rt convicts to any part. of the world ; at the same time, it embraced another, object, that of estab lishing a mode of imprisonment, at once tending to cultivate habits of industry and improve the Morals, so that at the close of imprisonment the individual would come forth reformed. The virtue of this Act ! had been lesnit , d by persons whose names command ed respect—by Mr. Howard, Lord Auckland, arid Judge Blackstone. The latter, in an edition of his I Commentaries, which he published shortly alien ob. served, that the prime objects of the plan which had !will formed were to ent;irce labour and cultivate re litions instruction ; to praserre the health and re form the habits of offenders by accustoming them to serious retLrction. The House must be surprised to hear that this Act remained a dead letter . ; from 31 I years since it was instituted, nothing had been done, and. it was now a monument of the wisdom of those who framed it, and a reproach to those who neglected it. In the mean while, the project of transportation to New South Wales was adopted, which he would venture to say was the boldest and I most unpromising ever undertaken; it was a project ; forinfinencing the hearts of mankind ; of establishing a colony from Cie refuse of society ; not like the tram, I portation to North America, which, from the popu. lotion of this country, was but a drop of water in the ocean. Every one must acknowledge the difficulty of establishing a colony without diligence and zeal in the undertaking ; and how - this could be accomplished by those who were sent out on that expedition is truly wonderful. It was in February 1787, that '267 per. sons were first embarked, and those were selected j from the Hulks, a place more calculated then to ins 'guilt—at present indtled it was better regu lated. In this statement lee was justified by tt Report gi a Committee of that House, which declares, that rtnong the circumstances which contributed to the increase of crime s the system of the Hulks was a great source ; they termed them seminaries for Vice and wickedness. At that time the number of persons on board amounted to 14.19. Another part of the report condemns the method of mixing the hardy offenders of the town with those who came from the Country. On this point, too, Mr. Howard had made a remark, which was, that the convicts who came from the country were so sunk in despondence that they were ready to put an end to their existence, till by corn munication with the offenders of the Metropolis, they were completely hardened in iniquity. In , stead of sending- persons to the colony who were acquainted with a country life, those embarked in February, 1787, and in June, 1789, were selected froth the criminals of London and Middlesex. In proof of all this he could adduce the publication of Mr. Collins, who was a panegyrist of this system. Great anxiety seems to hare been used to keep the prisoners in New South, Wales, and it appears that in the next embarkation it was expresSly stipulated, that none of the prisoners should be brought back ; one man who had a wife and child there would not be allcared to return unless he could provide for them. In the year 1801 this system was carried to such an'eatetia r that forty persons who had already suffered six, and amen sentenced for seven years, were transported t? tang Bay, and'what Makes this .remarkable is, tt . 7 di ff erent embarkations had ta k en place dnring.that period, and all bees suffered to pass by without sea- soIKONI in gescrilsed as =Weedy Petending.totke pc ion of iiitties, he' expressed his ap- p that . ptftelision might prove to be unfoun- fact, hearts rather &posed to qttestion this I *Lowther, because, from the whole ezpe- his Sfo he nerd. knew a Matt who pretea- • much better than 3111 the rest of saankinif;: not at some period of his life prove to be`T trevai" I with the men initials: be o in respect to the wOillittit.--411110 hti the power of wdlatilig Mfeiffirdiaati WIC tistost oft ie Client/ silibe itsestablishow ed the greatest 'estormides.. - With iweetwir bays on board diailksi what hail the saver for, whin there moral* wan then 'ruined ? elfett.ef• all thit may not hi felt liyns as brportcrity ; we ere in fact p S .uth 5?..4 Islands with villainy ; many it a ppetrs knits tgeihissionarlei, havelse? of the 'Savages ; have instructed thew in 481 7 . ples of NaVigation and sre.in fact Enalth. dam so rest of pirates. The cape** attending . * was ere, . Mout; in 1717, it excee4i4 e.staVbs,' meat of Fenitenti.try Hoiises'would be Itifisttpt, trifling. He thatight it to be the greatest ypokkilr' for this House to have given its thanks, and fordo • City of London to have erected a 'manhunt to Mr. Howard, and still allow every thistg to remain as it *4s. 'Ferrol:of ... death would 14rre bat lit*/ effect ill the present lax state of the police 4 He . droptiestnad tllie idewOf solitary imprisonment, which he costsidared severer than any deith, and awicluded bib 0 , That an humble Address be preiented to lip Dia. jest); thit lie would be graciously pleased to. Aries directions for.carrying into execution the 10th Act of bli reign, 'relating to Penitentiary Houses, and for the execution of the 3 6th of his reign, fur erecting the urns," Sce. Mt. Secretary R YDER. did not rise to oppgie..tb• Motion ; there were many of the observations of Ids Honourable' and I.e-arnerl'firiend In the Pieties:, 4 which he entirely concurred; but he must sat;that with respect to the imprisonment in thelughs;mee, he 474 s nriginally•averbe to it, be thought that, to the able and skilful management of Mr. Cerahagi o that very questionable mode of punishment bas bees turned into the most salditry that it was possible for this or any other eottntry td establish: Colonel VRANKI.A.ND thought that the House and the Country were greqtly. insiebtell to his .110- nourable and Learned Friend .(Hefri• fat woo*, the present subject before them: He, at VW mom ; time was of opinion, that in any alterations .?e sitions to he made, they ought to bear in the benefits of any instinitiow depended upset .604 . manner in which its laws and regulations were tarried • into effect. Mr. WILIIERFOItCE passed a warn ifielOgium .upon the system of Penitentiary Houses, and con trasted with them the ruinous depravity that prevailed in the Colony of New South 'Wales ammo the C. victs. With respect to Newgate, he spoke of it as a disgrace, not only to the City of Linutedl o .blit to die Kingdom at large, frf.;.•si thitatal facattiet it atfoilled to younz any inelperieneed oft:Wert to verse inn an *.livrtntrceship it/ profligacy, tinder the tuition.of the most finished and consummate villains. He deplored the dreadful conseqUences of such an abuse, in coin inen with every man who vtshed welt to the happi ness of Society. He concurred with the Right Ho nourable Secretary, in his opinion of the anwits of Mr. Graham. Mr. \VINDHAM said, thlt emit could be Ellie doubt n 4 to what sort of moral dissleline as#Jse,, easonlitilyeipecred from a roan colmy of I If the necessary mirrare-conld sastralukfldimerel- posed that Penitentiary Houma shonldbe.Sittlollllll. They had been . established. There were numerous Penitentiary Houses throughout the country. If Vie error was solely in the Management, how weretber sure that the erection of new Penitentiary Hoopes would obviate such an objection I He, however, did not object altogether to the Frinekle; but if such Houses were established upon the plans proposed, he shotld he very jealous at to the manner in which the religious instruction %is inculcated I it might beim done as to generate aloft of thlseldevogs ,Ea deism, superithiucing hypocrisy upon theif &tag depra vity. This, however, Would be a subject ter after consideration. Sir WILLIAM MILKER thought the measure of the Learned Gentleman would - not be ade4n tagenus to the colony. The Hen. llama,' stated. that in the solitary house.; in Yorkthire the harder men worked the.thore money they were entitled to, which was retained for their use until the period of their confinement expired, when it was paid to them. This in his opinion, was a wise proceeding,. and tends& greatly to reform the manners of the prtsoners. Mr. WELLESLEY POLE , allowed that else thants of the House were due to the Honourable Gentleinan who brought the subject before it. and he Was confident that by his exertions many hardships under which unfortunate criminals now laboured would be removed. He knew that in Ireland it would be necessary to make some alteration in the resent kite which regulited the practice of transportation. becatise 'natty felons must have suffered the most se vere. injuries beyond what the law indicted, were it not for the interference of the Lord Lieutenant, who, wishing, to ameliorate their condition, consulted the Judges on the subj ect; . and the opidlct it of those Learned Sages the Law *ks, that the tom which those unfortunate persons had passed it prima could not be allowed out of the term of thew transports don, but must pass for nothing. In ccoonssseeqquence of this opinion, the Lord Liebtenant establi tentiary Houses, to which these unfortunate Frikeses were removed ; every care was taker of them, both as to religious instruction and to theircomforts. He did not know whether any relief could be afforded to Ireland in the Learned Gentleman's system; but sure he was, if the Learned Gentleman would take it into his consideration, he should think it would be ' a great benefit to Ireland. Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY withdrew Wanda 4 for the present, and g ire notice of his bringing it for► ward on the 25th instant. ARMY EXTRAOkDINARR.S. The House, in a Committee of Supply, Mr. LONG moied. That a sum, not exceeding eke sem ef ,C 441,517 ltis. should be granted le Army Extraordiwies,Eine December tone to December 11109. After a short conversation between Mr. Titan sr, *fr. Loma, Mr. Catca•rr, Admiral MAIIMIABI i M. Wat.Lasur Pout, Mr. G. Rosa, Sir C. POLt, MT:WIARTOI, Mr. *31111140111111)! L o rd Patexasrowt, the Cuancettoa of the Excinteuala,Mr: Louses old Sir Pacoima atettaareas, Modes to issgalPri as planations upon meaty of the item, doe Resolution Ws &shims. tied ; when the How having resented, the Ibmport was ordered to be received this day. The Navy Estimates were postpone* till Mr CHARLES PILE moved for an Account of the Mo;ties received from the Army Prize Aiwa, and by she Deputy • Treasurer of Chelsea Hospital, pursuant to the Act of the 40 ne Haase adjourned at half past oat. •