Star. — London, England, 1821-05-05 00:00:00

• . \ Aar • .I\X vad for the House to resolve itself into a Committee pof Snpßly i CHINSON rose, pursuant to notice, • to offer so re observations on the passing events- in Europe, calculated, as he thought. materially to in fluence the state of this country. It had been inti mated to him, that the course he was about to pursue would interfere with the motion which a Noble Lord near him (Lord William Bentinck) was about to make with respect to Sicily. He did not think it would ; but if it would have the effect of interfering with that motion in the smallest degree, he would most readily withdraw it. He begged to remind the House, that when the affairs of Naples 'were last l brought under its attention, Ministers had distinctly ' declared that they had not interfered in the matter at issue between Austria and Naples. As far as the declaration of Ministers went, it appeared that though they did not express any approbation of the conduct of Austria, yet they said.enough to convince him and many others in the country, that their feelings and wishes were not neutral. They strongly betrayed the bias of their minds, notwithstanding their unbounded assurances of forbearance, .by, their constant and de termined abuse of the party .by whose activity the spirit of liberty had been spread throughout the ha- Lan States. They asserted repeatedly, and pledged themselves for the truth of that assertion, that the views of Austria were not directed to aggrandize ment, but to the s:rfety of her own dominions. At that time there appeared to be working throughout Italy, and nowhere more ardently than in Naples, a spirit that would have, to all appearance, been suffi cient to.counteract any aggression of Austria on the left of the Po. There was then some excuse for the resolution of Ministers not to interfere with the two Powers between whom an explosion was threat ened.. Out now the aspect of affairs in Italy was very different indeed. The Austrian troops were over running the provinces of that portion of the Conti nent: Sardinia was prostrated before them ; and, to improve the prospect, a body of Russian troops was marching through the Austrian dominions, for the purpose of supporting Austria. What! did Austria want the assistance of Russia ? Was she indeed so forlorn, so utterly incapable of coping with the Ar ' mies of Italy—so completely overwhelmed by re peated defeats, as to stand in need of a reinforcement of Russian auxiliaries? Let the House mark how woefully the aspect of affairs had changed in Italy. Let them look to Greece, now in a state of ferment— 'let them look to the situation of Spain, which was com pelled to desert some of her most respectable citizens, and its Government obliged to declare Martial Law. Under this altered condition of affairs, would the Noble Lord think himself justified in remaining quiet any longer, and suffer a tyranny to establish itself in Europe, without at least one attempt to prevent it? It was true, the entering upon a new war would be highly inauspicious for this country ; but would the country be satisfied to remain inactive, and run the risk of seeing a military tyranny consolidated in Europe, to whose power they might themselves at no distant time become the victim ? If Russia seized upon Constantinople, and gained ascendancy in the Mediterranean, what security would the Noble Mar quis give for the liberties of Europe ? He beheld with jealousy the acts of the Allied Sovereigns.. He wished to speak of them with respect as the Allies of Great Britain. He knew the people, and the armies under their authority were brave and deserving, but he could not view the policy of their Cabinets (and no farther did he extend his animativersions) without alarm.. He was not demanding anything unpreceden ted in our history when he urged the propriety of this Government's interfering with the concerns of other countries, when they saw in their conduct anything tending to the injury of the rights and liberties of other nations. The Hon. Gentleman referred to the wars in the time of William the Third and Queen Anne, which were undertaken expressly to preserve . the balance of power. In the case of Nootka Sound, the ground of our arming was then stated by Mr. 1 Pitt to be the preparations which Spain was at that time making ; and in the year 1791-2 we were armed 1 for fourxen months, in order to prevent Russia from' taking possession of Oczakow. The Honourable Gentleman referred to the speeches of several Mem- 1 bets of both Houses, particularly one of Lord Gren ville, with respect to the last-mentioned circum stance, in order to slew that it was their opinion, that interference was justified in cases where the dan- 1 ger was merely remote to this country. He main tained that it was the policy of this country to enter into a treaty offensive and defensive with Spain, in case a single soldier entered into her territory for hos tile purposes ; and, further, that we ought to make it known to France, that if they permitted a soldier of the Allies to cross her territory to enter Spain, that such a permission would be taken by Great Britain as a declaration of war. The designs of Russia against the liberties of Europe, it would be always in the power of Great Britain to stop, as long as she commanded a sovereign Navy. No matter in what quarter of the Continent Russia was triumphing let England, as it was in her power, block up the Russian ports, and she would speedily reduce the Emperor of that extensive country to call back his devouring hordes, and submit to terms of peace.-- Let England put France in good humour, and let the two countries unite for their common security. A moment passed, and i , would be, perhaps, too late. But he feared that Russia and Austria were acting after the precedent of the Noble Lord at Venice, • Pa ris, and Aix-la-Chapelle; he feared that those Powers might, with good reason, turn round to the Noble Marquis, and remind him of the proceedings at Ha nover—the annexation of Belgium to Holland—the plunder of Saxony—the destruction of Wirtemberg— the wreck of different States of Italy—the breach of faith with Genoa—the conduct of Naples to Sicily. Russia might thus remind the Noble Lord that he had acted upon the principle which she now would act upon herself, and say, with good reason, that she was folios% ins up the principles of the Noble Lord in artempting to wrest from Spain her newly-acquired libertic The Noble Lord, therefore, was placed in a critical situation. His principles, since the battle o f Waterloo, were in opposition to the liberties of Europe. Ile begged to know where. as the peace, the results, the happiness of the world, which the Noble Lord pramiscd would result from the peace that was ratined at Paris? Ile beg ged _pardon for thus intruding on the attention of the House, and concluded by moving, as au Amendment, that the; ' House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole', House, to consider the state of the nation as connected with European politics. Sir R. WILSON seconded the motion. The Mequis of LONDONDERRY said he could not help objecting to the mode of proceeding adopted by the Hon. Member who had introduced this sub ject. Nothing, however, which had been urged in the course of the Hon. Member's speech, rendered it necessary for him to enter, at that moment, into the details of the subject. When he came down to the House, he was under the impression that the House was to enter into a discussion on the N.ivy Estimates, and, when such a question stood upon the paper, he thought it improper that they should be diverted from it, and dragged into an inquiry into the state of the nation with reference to foreign politics.— When he heard of the Hon. Member's motion, he thought that he (Mr. Hutchinson) intended to chew that the existing state of Europe would enable us to dispense with a considerable portion of the Navy Estimates. But instead of hearing it recommended that a great portion of those Estimates should be cut down, he could not help feeling some surprise at find ing an accusation made against him (the Marquis of Londonderry) which would form the ground of im peachment, for not having called upon the House, by a Message from the Crown, to grant such addi tional sums as would place the country in a situation to resist the dangers with which she was threatened. He must, however, with all respect, decline the alter native which the lion. Member had given him. The lion. Member had also given him much advice, and no doubt with the best possible intention ; he recom mended entering into treaties offensive and defensive with France and Spain, blockading the greater part of the northern ports, and many other measures of a very salutary nature no doubt, but which were, he must say, wholly thrown away upon him (the Mar quis of Londonderry). He felt it necessary also to decline all political advice, when he found it came from an Hon. Member who did not appear to see the political state of Europe With sufficient clearness to enable him to make up his own mind upon it.— He felt convinced that Ministers would act with great rashness if they followed advice so tendered to them. Ile never knew it to be the Parliamentary course to goad Ministers into any act, or any explanation, by such an irregular proceeding as that adopted by the Honourable Member. If the Honourable Member would allow him (the Marquis of Londonderry) to suggest to him (Mr. Hutchinson) and his friends a hint which he had before thrown out, he would re commend to them, not to be so very precipitate in giving their advice and opinions upon such subjects. When the affairs of N'aples were last discussed in that House, he heard several statements made upon which he declined giving any opinion. Heforebore, at the moment, from stating what line of conduct ought to be pursued by this or any other country. It now appeared, that many of the statements then made were fallacious. Whatever might be the corn ments and opinions now pronounced, he would re commend to the Honourable Mover and his friends to change their course—to act a little more upon realities, rather than indulge in speculating upon possibilities—or rather upon impossibilities. By this means much of the time and attention of the House would be spared. He did not presume to say what would be the result of the present events on the Continent, but he would caution the Ho nourable Member on the third Bench (Mr. llutchin son) against assuming, that because the Russian Army had been put in motion in consequence of certain events in Piedmont, they were therefore to proceed to other countries, and for other purposes. Ile would not take upon himself the task of prophe sying what would happen, as it was at best a useless office; but he would say, that there being at present no evidence of such a fact as the advance of the Russian Army, it was wrong to assume, and then argue upon it. He would state to the House how it was that the Rus sian army was put in motion. It was known that an insurrection similar to that of Naples, which had been much panegyrized by several Members opposite, had taken place in Piedmont. It was said that both in surrections had taken place in the cause of liberty. He never could dignify by the word liberty the at tempts of a military body to resist their lawful So vereign, and tear down and destroy the most sacred institutions of the country, without knowing or caring by what those institutions were to be replaced. Of this description was the insurrection in Piedmont.— The King of .Sardinia resigned in favour of his bro ther, and his nephew was placed at the head of the ; Provisional Government. In a few days, he also was forced to retire from his Regency. Tile first act of I the new Government was a declaration of war against Austria. Without entering into the motives el this proceeding, it was sufficient to state that this declara tion of war originated with those favoured and pane gyrized Children of Liberty. What then was to be done ? The King of Sardinia, under such circum stances, felt himself compelled to apply to Austria for assistance. Austria applied to Russia for support against this Insurrectionary Government, in conse ', quence of which, a large body of Russian troops were put in motion, and actually entered the Austrian fron tier. But the circumstances which induced this move ment having changed, did it necessarily follow that those troops were to continue their route? The con sequence of this movement was, that the Insurrec tionary Government of Piedmont ceased to exist ; but it was suppressed more immediately by the troops of the King of Sardinia, as only a very small part of the Austrian troops had been brought up.— If the Emperors of Austria and Russia entertained the intentions imputed to them by the Honourable Member, of wishing to overturn the liberties of Eu rope, would they have acted in the manner they have done? It was a fact, that General Bubna, who com manded the Austrian forces, had orders to enter Pied mont as little as possible, and above all, to avoid ap proaching the capital. Now this savoured as little as possible of a wish to overturn the liberties of Eu rope. He was sure the House would forgive him for protesting against the introduction of a motion which prevented them from entering on one of the most im portant discussions which could come before them. He was as anxious as any Member that every pos sible economy iloul.l be practised, and with that view he was desirous that the Public Estimates should undergo the closest investigation in all their branches. He would repeat a declaration Which he had made on a former occasion, that if those Powers were to inaoitest any inclination or intention of aggrandising themselves at the expense of Europe ; he would be the first to propose the interference of this country. We ought to look with jealousy to foreign Powers. but we ought now to recollect that we were in a state of peace, and that it was our interest not to disturb that peace, by unnecessarily meddling with Conti nental affairs. He was not aware of any circum stance which could render such interference neces sary at present. He would not say that circum stancesmight not arise which would make our inter ference necessary, and should such a period arrive, we would be better able to meet it by preserving as long as possible our present state of internal and ex ternal tranquillity. The motion of the Honourable Member' was foutaled upon an imperfect view of the political state of Europe, and 41serefore he felt bound to oppose it. Sir ROBERT WILSON said, there was too much reason to believe that the Noble Marquis and his Col leagues delighted in the destruction of freedom and the revolutionary principle in Europe. There was no cause for despondency because the people had de serted that cause of liberty which they had at first so nobly espoused. The Austrian Army occupied Naples ingloriously, and they knew that the elements of de struction surrounded them. They had called to their aid scaffolds and executioners, but that would cause them to keep at least 4.0,000 men in Naples, 60,000 in other parts of Italy, and, in consequence of the Greek insurrection, they must have 80,000 men on their Turkish frontiers. Austria, therefore, had no cause for triumph ; nor had the ft iends of liberty any cause for despondency. He knew his Hon. Friend did not wish to involve this country in war, but only to support that character which she had hitherto maintained in Europe. Colonel DAVIES wished to know from the Noble Marquis, whether he had any communication with the Russian Government, so as to know that that Army was only intended for Italy ?—for the conduct of those wretches had been so dastardly, that he cared not what became of them. The Marqtlis of LONDONDERRY repeated that the Russian Army wAs sent forward in consequence of the application of the Austrian Government. Sir ROBERT WILSON wished to know whether the keys of Alexandria had been sent to the Emperor of Austria, as an acknowledgment of his Sovereignty? The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he had never heard of the circumstance. The Austrian troops had only occupied Alexandria and Novara. The Motion was then negatived without a division. On the Motion for going into a Committee of Sup ply on the Navy Estimates, Mr. C. HUTCHINSON said, he had done his duty by his country and Europe in making the Motion he had, and calling the attention of the House to the affairs of the present day. We ought to maintain that high character which we now enjoyed in Europe.— What he wished was, that France and other nations might not be before us in the race of assisting the friends of liberty. He wished that an armament had been sent to blockade the Russian ports in the Baltic. He contended that it was impossible that any one could believe that the Russian Army could have only moved at the suggestion of Austria, out of her fear from the insurrection in Piedmont. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he did not believe that the march of the Russian troops had any connection with the state of affairs in Spain. The insurrection of Piedmont was not of a trifling nature, considering that the insurrection in Naples was at that time at its highest point. Sir ROBERT WILSON still considered the inter ference of Austria in the affairs of Naples, as an aggresssion upon the latter country, and an act of suicide towards herself. Mr. HUME wished to place a Resolution on the Journals, chewing a desire to approximate the Navy Estimates to those of 1792. lie would not now en ter into the separate grants ; but would object to the totals. When the House went into the Committee, then would be the time to object to the individual, items. The pay and provisions for the men, and the charges of wear and tear, were kept up the same as in time of war. The number of marines too was in creased ; the vote of this year was less than last year by £380,560, but still he wished the House to con sider whether it was proper to keep up this establish ment ? We have hut 14,000 sailors, and 8,000 ma rines. These establishments would cost the country £190,000 beyond the expenses of 1792. In 1813, we had 1,000 vessels in ordinary or in commission, and 145,000 seamen and marines; and he contended that a much greater saving should be made in our pre sent reduced establishment of the Navy. lie went through a comparison of the items, and could find no reason why there should be so little disparity be tween the charges of 1813 and 1821. Between those of 1792 and this year there was an increase of upwards of four millions. He then moved, that it appeared . that the expense of the Navy Pay Office was only re duced £4,000 since 1814 ; and that the total charge for the Navy was four millions more than in 1792. Sir G. WARRENDER hoped the time would ar rive when they could come to that economy so much wished for by the Honourable Gentleman. The Ho nourable Member should recollect, that until 1798 the sums voted were not equal to the expenditure; and application was obliged to he made for after grants. The Dock-yards and other establishments had increased greatly since 1792. The motion was then negatived without a division. The House then went into a Committee of Supply. Sir G. WARRENDER said, that the emoluments in the dock-yards had been reduced, and the salaries increased. In 1792, persons having salaries of 1:100 a-year had emoluments to the amount of £1,000. Now they had only the salaries of their office. The, object of the Admiralty, since the peace, had been to bring the fleet into such a state of efficiency as was necessary for the security of the country, and he was happy to.say that this object had been nearly effected. Before the close of the year several Com missioners of the Dock-yards and Civil servants would be reduced; and one of the Dock-yards also. —He moved a sum of £2,489,000 for the ordinary estaklishment of the Navy. Mr. BERNAL expressed his extreme pleasure at the prospect of approaching reductions ; but he hoped the Hon. Baronet would remodel the present vote. Sir G. WARRENDER said, he had proposed the vote as it had been usual ; but he was prepared with 'another set of votes. He then withdiew his first Resolution, and moved a sum of 1:70;5W 1.4 r pitying the ekpetise of the Admit Alty (h&c. Mr. BERNAL contended that this grant w, large, as the duti es o f t h e o ffi ce had been c 04",. ably reduced. Ile objected to two of the Lot ds Admiralty, who he thought might be better reducti than poor Clerks that had to support families on Clop a-year. The Vice-Admiral of Scotland was an o sce that might b therefore : reduced. Ile wo u ld p rops a reduction of I.:3500 in this grant. Sir G. COCKBURN said, the Vice-Admiral Scotland was a patent office, and his continuance ;a ' office slimed him more and more the necessity of the Lay Lords of the Admiralty. That Board partook more of a civil than of a military capacity. %Viv o there seas a Lord High Admiral; 1:d had never less than six Assistants. It was necessary to lase well. read Civilians in the Admiralty Oilice. Sir JOSEPH YORKE said, that, conside,ing that the country was reduced to 2 state of extreme po. vcrty ; and that the great ships the Di itannia, the Caledonia, and the Hibernia, if they were not eon:- pletely water-logged, had at least six feet water in their holds !—(dear, krar)—it became the dtty of the ! Captain, the Officers, ant: the crew, a n d h e meant by that metaphor the King, the Ministers, and the Re presentatives of the People, to look, one and all, t o the safety of each ship, and do their best to prese nt them from sinking !—(!leer).—lle had often heard a said, in the speeches of the Hon. Gentlemen oppo s i te, that retrenchment was the only means of salvatioe which remained to this. great and independent na. tion—(llear).—lle did not mean to state that it wa s his opinion that such was the case; but he must sir, that he had never heard a direct answer given to th e assertion by his lion. Friend below him, the Gentl e s man with the white head . I .—(CAcers axd lattglaerk From all that he had seen of these seven Noble Lord s , two of them only were allowed to speak, the others always acted the part of dirnim'es !—(Loud kzagi ter).—One of them, indeed, gets up an annual speech,,, and then comes to the House and lets it off with great' flippancy! —(Roa r s oflaughter).—Besides that sp eec h , he never makes another, except it be in St. James's., street, or wherever else he walk s f or t h e purpose of ! taking his recreation. He firmly believed, that the business of the Board would go on equally well with five at the Board as seven. Till the time of Lord Grey, the salary had been only £3OOO a-year; not that be thought that enough, bet in the event old* First Lord holding another situation, he thought that sufficient. A Right Hon. relative of his own (Mr. Charles Yorke) had given up the additional L'2000 ! a-year, whileheheld the place of First Lord, and not a word was said about it—(llear, hear).—He had been chiefly led to make these observations by hear. ing all the management of the civil concerns of the Navy attributed to the Admiralty, Co the disparage. rent of the Navy Board, by whom it was performed so honestly, so zealously, and so economically tlicar). Mr. ROBINSON, in answer to his gallant hind and relative (Sir J. Yorke), said it was quite new to him that the Civilian Lords were, as it was termed, then:mics. He (Mr. Robinson) had had the honour of a seat at the Admiralty Board for some years, which he had accepted at the urgent request of his Right Hon. relative, then at the head of the Board, and he had found himself fully employed. Far from being sinecures, he in his conscience believed the places in question to be most efficient and useful offices - Sir J. YORKE said he should be sorry to have personally hurt his Right Hon. Friend; with respect to his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Robinson), certainly the offices in question had not been useless—(A laugh ),—fbr after his Right Hnn. Friend had beet cradled in that nursery of sucking statesmen, ask had been called, he had got from thence, by a hop, step, and jump, till .he found himself seated on the Treasury Bench as a Cabinet Minister !—(.l laugh). Mr. R. WARD had had the honour of sitting at the Boat d of Admiralty for four years, and supported the assertion of the Right Hon. Treasurer of the Navy. Mr. CItEEVEY said, they had heard a gallon Officer, who had sat eight years at the Admiralty Board, declare that the two Lords in question were useless, and a Right Honourable, who had also bee at the Admiralty Board, declare they were ascii!. Between them, he should judge for himself, and he certainly could not see the use of them. lie begged the Committee to look at the situation in which they were placed; they were in a Committee professedly voting supplies for the Navy, but they wereinttality voting supplies for eight Members of Parliament — (Hear, /sear)—triz. five Lords of the Admiralty, one Clerk to the Board, one Treasurer, and one Comp troller of the Navy. He should not be turprisedif these eight Members voted for their own salaries— (Hear, hear) —and the Gentlemen of other Public Departments would do the same for them as they had done for the Gentlemen of other Boards; so that they could tell to a farthing what reduction would be made in the Navy Estimates, viz. exactly the same that had been made in the At my Estimates, mak! —(Hear, hear).—lll a plain man saw persons actin as the trttstees of his property, voting sums to each other in this way, he would say, " Gentlemen, 1", are taking much better care of yourselves than ct me." Till there was some better arrangement at this subject, there would be no end to the waste of public money. Sir I. COFFIN wished to know whether the gai lant Officer (Sir J. Yorke) had expressed his preset opinion of the Admiralty daring the eight years th 4 he had a seat there ?—(hear, and a laugh). Sir JOSEPH YORKE--." No man knows better than my gallant Friend, that had I uttered such sen timents formerly, my stern would have been sc* D turned to the Admiralty !"—(hear, hear). Mr. HUME asked, if it was meant to Lords of the Admiralty to what they had been "L E years back ? He had heard, that the expenses of lir, IMarines were very l arge , an d severa l o f t he Lords °` the Admiralty held situations in the Marines so" were wholly sinecures.- Was'a Paymaster of Miriae: at .1:5000 a-year, necessary for WOO wwn? Was" meant to keep the Private Secretary of the First Lei of the Admiralty, who was a l s o a Commissioners the Victualling Board? The Paymaster of ' Pensions was now superannuated, and had 14 .7 1 a-year as his supera nnuat i on . The real rcducuo should hare been £5OOO and not £3OOO. Mr. CILOKER had heard w i t h much pain the statement of his gallant Friend, and still more : y explanation that had followed the speech- H e not thought that hi s ga llant Friend (Sir J. 0 1 5 when he sat and v o ted w ith him in that House, . sr ad not been swayed by the dictates of his owa but by the Lye of udice. Ile believed coat sin sa 11 I a a I si