Star. — London, England, 1823-02-22 00:00:00

. • tech .w.O thi fact, WOVic taking.to tan g as of our , situation tq calculate that the Revenue. in the present year would be. eglial to what it had been in the last? Was he not justified in calculating, under such circumstances, that the Custom;. and Excise would at least sustain no diminution in the present year' He might securely rely on these papers alone that the condition of the mass of the People was better than it had formerly been. But let the House look at their actual situation. Let them compare it with what they had recently witnessed in other years.-- Where was the distress, the outrage, the sedition, which had heretofore been witnessed ? What had become of these things? They had vanished. And what appeared in their places? Order, tranquillity, peace, happiness, and content. Such a change fur nished demonstrative proof of the improved situation `of the country. He derived infinite consolation from the view, for it satisfied him, that however the People ?night be excited for a time, yet there was at the bot tom something so noble, so patriotic, so a:tached to the principles of the British Government and Consti tution, that the pressure of distress removed, di con tent seas no more. He exulted in the altered state of our affairs. None had more lamented the affliction formerly known than himself, as it had been his pain ful duty to support measures of severity which had appeared to him necessary to repress the disorders which unhappily recurred — (Hear, hear).— A nother circumstance appeared to him highly gt :allying in its nature. It was not of vast importance to the country generally, but it was of the highest importance to in dividual comfort. He alluded to the increased amount of contributions deposited in the Saving Banks.— During the last year a very considerable addition had been made to the number of contributions, and to the sums deposited. He knew that it was said many persons placed money in theM who ought not to do so. This could not be helped ; but if such were the case, it did not account for the increase which he had remarked. It could not be denied, that a very large propo.tion of the sums received, had been c attributed by pet stins in the humblest walks of life. It furnished the mci.it !:t ati ing proof of the good effects of those valital.ie while it clearly manifcsfed that the c(milot I: of the poor had been largely aoginehted. These independent cf the positive good which they pre sented in themselves, sceined to him, nattiraliy and of necessity, to lead to the relief of that body which had been so much do.i , ressed, the Agricultural part of the community. lie had now to offer a few re marks on that part of the Revenue of the Country, which was diverted fl um the Exchequer—he meant the sums expended in its collection. He looked for ward to a considerable diminution of that expense in future; but lie called on the Committee to look at what had already been done. He was sorry that he had not been able to get all the information on this subject Which could be desired; but there was a greater difficulty in getting the accounts made up thus early in the year than Gentlemen might ima gine. lie would, however, take the expense of col lecting the Revenue in the year 1821, and compare it with the expchse incur' ed in the antecedent years, and then it would be seen that if all had not been done that some Gentlemen wished to see accom plished, that Government had not been inattentive to the wishes which had been expressed. Ile would re fer to the collection of the Customs, as the expense which occurred in their collection was great. The charge for this service had amounted In 1818 - to - X 1, 3 .27,121 1819 - 1,251.991 1820 - - 1.097,773 le'2l 1,066,886 It would thus be seen that a gradual and progres sive reduction had taken place, as the expense of that branch of the collection had been reduced from 1,327,0001. to 1,066,0001. Gentlemen might say that the reduction ought to have been carried farther. Prima facie this might appear, but at all events it might be seen from what had been done, that the re commendation given on this subject had not been neglected. Much of what had been accomplished ought to be ascribed to the Committee which had sat three or four years ago, of which his Right Hon. Friend (the Paymaster) was the head. By that Com mittee various reductions had been suggested, which the Government had at once determined on carrying into effect. It did not by any means follow, because all the reductions were not effected the moment they were suggested, that they were neglected. In many instances it was necessary to wait for the death or retirement of meritorious individuals, who, after long service, could not at once be dismissed without cruelty and injustice. But as such obstacles were re moved, the Public received tlle benefit of those changes which could fairly be effected. He now turned to the Revenue of Ireland—(llear, hear). — Much had alreadybeen done,and mere would be done. The Government had not been inattentive to the Re port made by the Commissioners appointed two years ago. Though some had ridiculed it and under valued its importance, its worth was now fully esta blished by documents before the House. Never had any body of men evinced a more determined resolu tion to pursue, in spite of all obstacles, with sincerity and independence, the important investigation which they were appointed to conduct. If the met it of their services could not be denied, he trusted it would also be admitted that the Government had not been backward in supporting their recommendations., No sooner had their lust Report been received than the Governmeht announced it to be their intention to act upon it, and he, for one, had been ready to give it his most cordial support. This, he thought, must have the effect not only of reducing the expenditure, but it must go in some measure to put down the im _ potation directed against the Government (and he knew such an imputation had been aimed at himself) that they had no disposition to give up useless offices. Thisimputation, he would now take the liberty to say, had been satisfactorily repelled. The next topic to which lie should call the attention of the House was that on which lie had already slightly touched—the' presumed Expenditure of the present year. He bad stated to the Committee that the total Expenditure for 182$ might be taken at I.:10;842,000. "The items which composed the sum were in sit as follows : Par the Army - 1 7 ,362,000 For the Navy 5,442,000 Fox the Ordnance - - - 1,000,000 For the Miscellaneous 1,449,000 LOokin., back to the charge of •wasteful and pfoll Fate eapenditure winch had heretofore been ur g ed uzaiust the Government, he must here Jay that such reproaches did. rrok appear to him justly or.fairly be. stowed. It was not enough to say that an office was , useless or. an expe nse unnecessar y to make h u the duty of Ministers to aboli s h the o ffi ce, or put an end to the expense. On such subjects, the Government. must be allowed to exercise a discretion of their own ; and nothing was more unjust than to say, that , because such recom men d a ti on h a d not immedi a tely been acted upon, that the Administration was cor rupt, and regardless of the public welfare. Such charges, he knew, all former Governments had been I compelled to endure ; and to similar accusations the present and all future Governments must continue to be exposed. But the way to shew the animus of the Government, was not to go into every little detail, but to look at what they had do:won a somewhat larger scale. Let this be done, and then it would be seen whether important reductions had not been effected,— In the first.place, let the Estimates of the present year be compared with those of the last, and then it would be found, that notwithstanding the proposed addi tion of four thousand men to the Navy, that taking the Navy, Army, and Ordnance, those three great sources of expenditure together, there was in the pre sent year a positive reduction of expense of £170,000. The diminution, but for the increase of the Navy, would have exceeded A:600,000. There was a total diminution of Expenditure, as compared With 1821, of - - L 1.910,000 1820, of - . 2,971,000 1819, of - . 2,156,000 1818, of - - 2,449,000 And, if the present Estimate were compared with the Estimate of 1817, it would be found that there was still a reduction to the amount of £1,535,000. After this, the Government ought not to be condemned,l because they did not at once comply with every hint thrown out ; but he would confidently appeal tb the I Committee, if enough had not been done to prove that they were sincere in their endeavours to effect j every practical reduction ? But it was to he remem bered, that on them devolved the awful responsibility of protecting the country against all the dangers which might threaten its repose. They were to look to everything which might happen, as well as to those circumstances which were seen on the surface. It was therefore unjust, because every economical sug gestion was not at once complied with, to assume that the Government must be profligate or corrupt. If he were to pursue the items of expenditure through the Miscellaneous Services and the Irish Exchequer Bids, an signally satisfactory view of diminished ex pense would be f ur ni s hed. H e wo u ld not go i n to these, but comparing the. total Estimateof the pre tent year with the Estiniate of last year and of that of 1817, there would be found a reduction as com pared with the former, to the amount of 971,0001. and as compared with the latter, a diminution of ex pense amounting to no less than 2,671,0001. He now came to state to the Committee the mode in which he proposed to dispose of the Surplus Revenue for the present year. He took this at something more than 7,000,0001. Of this sum he proposed to apply five millions to diminish the Public Debt. The remainder he wished given to the Public in the remission of taxes. When a country possessed a surplus of this kind, it was obvious there were three modes of dis posing of it. The first was to appropriate the'entire amount to the reduction of taxes ; tile second was to give the whole to diminish the debt ; the third mode was to combine the two which he had mentioned, and this was the course which Ministers had thought it proper to take on the present occasion, and which he could not but flatter himself would meet with the approbation of the House—.(Hear, hear). — To adopt it would be to act on that principle to which for many years the House had adhered, and he could disc.ver nothing in the present situation of the coun try which ought to induce departure from it. He. knew of no proposition more alarming than that which would counsel the adoption of the first of the three modes which he had pointed out, namely, the giving of the whole surplus to the reduction of taxes, and thus to abandon the idea of keeping up a Sinking Fund. Taking such a course - involved the principle of indefinite addition to debt; for who would say that circumstances might not arise which would preclude the possibility of raising within the year the Supplies necessary to avert the danger that might menace our peace ? Who would say that we should never again have occasion for that powerful invaluable arm of defence, public credit, which was so essential to our safety, that its destruction would, in his opinion, be the destruction of the country itself? Yet this public credit Would be destroyed, if were once deter mined that no effort should be made in time of peace to liquidate the debt contracted to carry on war. Would not the injurious effects of such a system speedily he felt in the deteriorated value of every species of property ? And what an increased expense would be thrown on the country at any future time, when a loan should become necessary ! For who would lend money for moderate interest to those who never meant to return the principal ? It was known that the interest of debt already amounted to more than half the annual expenditure of the country. No man felt and regretted this more than he did.—' It was because he felt bow severely the inevitable weight of this debt pressed down the interest of the country, that he was disposed to strain every nerve to diminish it. If ever. there was a time when it was necessary to support the public credit of the country, this was that time. When attempts were made to delude the People into a belief that no means of re lieving them existed, but by doing away a part of the debt—but by robbing one set of people to assist others —(Bear, hear)--he repeated it, the course recom mended, as it appeared to him, was to rob one set of people to assist another; and now, when such propo sitions were sent abroad, to decline applying their surplus revenue to reduce the debt, world be to give additional importance to those who ware favourable to such an act of spoliation. He would say that every motive which ought to have influence on the' deci sions, financial and political, bound them, by paying ' off a part or the debt, to redeem she pledged faith Of the country : —(Neer, liter).—But, while hecontended for this ptincipie, he did not say it was necessary to apply the whole surplus revenue to the reduction of' the debt. It was possible for the debt to be too ra pidly diminished—(,Heer, Ina, I anti iasteacr),---1 - fe dial not mean to say that there was any great danger of it at present—(A lau4/I).—Ciicuimtances, how ever, might arise, under which it would be neces sary to hotit the progress of the reduction of the debt. This Was his sincere conviction, and though it was 'raid that the Chmweilor of Vic Exchequer for the time,being, whoever be might be, was always S 4 enamoured of taxes, that he 'could willingly part ! with none, be would take the liberty to say that such I was not his taste. He admitted that in the pre:eeit situation of the country, it was desira!;le to gi v e every possible relief from taxes. The remiesinn which took! place last year he thought wise, and, indeed, he , thought no one could doubt that the remission of taxation, per ce, was a very desirable thine. On principle it was that the Government hal determined to recommend that repeal of existing duties which it now became his duty to propose. I Here the Right Himourable Gentleman appeared very much exhausted, from the exertion he bad made, and in 01),•,li,•mi• to I the call of the House, sat down for a few minutes, till he ap taxared in some degree recovered.] In resuming, he said, no great exertion of voice . would be requisite to the performance of the re mainder of his task. He now procetele,l to explain why, in the relief to be afforded,' he Lad applied him-. self principally to the Assessed Taxes. He had in tended to go at some length into the scions which dictated this tout se, but they were so obvious that he thought the House would pardon him it he de clined executing that purpose. But it was nee serial that he should describe the mole iii which he proposed to give effect to his plan— (Hear, hear). — He proposed that the reductions s h e uld be partly ab solute and partly partial. The As essed Taxes were classed under four heads—the Dates on Windows— those on Inhabited Houses—the Duties on Horses— and the fourth (a very small item). the Tax on Dogs and Armorial 13earings, &c. He proposed to leave the 'aweless precisely as they were at present, as he saw no sufficient grounds for reducing them. He thought it right to leave those of the AssesSed Taxes which were least complained of, and he would con fess, that what he should recommend would have for its object, to diminish those bun ens which were most severely felt by. that class whose distress had so long been deplored by the House. He wished to afford the landed interest every possible relief. He, there fore, was of opinion that the Inhabited House Tax might remain, and he proposed to remit no ',onion of that. With respect to the other classes, they com prehended a variety of small items, which in their operation pressed exceedingly hard on individuals— were in the collection intolerably vexatious, constantly giving occasion to eternal surcharges, which doubled the inconvenience to be endured, both to those who paid them, and to those by whom they were col. Jetted. He should, therefore, propose the absolute repeal of a number of these smaller items, which be should now take the liberty to state to the House. The first item to which lie should allude applied to persons under the head of Male Servants, occasionally employed in Trade or Agriculture. It was obvious that the duties in question were excessively embar rassing, and led to endless disputes, which made the Assessed Taxes more unpalatable (he wonld not we a stronger word) than they would be merely from the amount paid—he therefore proposed their entire re peal. Their amount (the duties on occasional merle servants) he stated at 37,2001. There were duties imposed on another class of persons, whom he had always regarded as ill suited to bear taxittion—he meant those individuali who were returned in the schedules as occasional Gardeners. The tax was in• tended to fall on those who kept a garden as a luxury ; and viewed in that light he had nothing to say against it. Buo: in many instances it had operated (though such was not the intention,of the House) to keep poor people from being employed, because, if a man was employed for a single week as an occasional gardener, the tax must be paid for the year. Its amount was ten shillings. This was not much to be sure, but it made an additional Return necessary, and he could not dent but there was something unp!aasant in being compelled to make an additional entry ire that paper which was annually presented from the Tax Office-4 Lauehter).--.To say the truth, people did not like, because from charity or any other' nlotive they occasionally employed a poor man as an occasional gardener, to pay 'this tax ; and there fore they would be pleased with its repeal. The amount of this reduction he estimated at 19,7001. — The next positive reduction which he had to propose was the duty on the lower class of Taxed Carts. A Petition had been presented on this subject, and the, Honourable Member for Aberdeen intended moving,; on Monday, for a Return connected with it. liej should be welcome to the paper which would then be given as he hoped for the last time. The repeal of the duties on the lower description of Taxed Carts, would involve a surrender of Revenue to the amount of 9,3001. There was another duty, the amount of which was very small, but which it was desirable to repeal, as it fell on those who were least able to pay taxes. This was the dirty of 3s. at present imposed on Ponies under 13 hands high. Formerly when money was wanted, they were obliged to take all they could get for a whip-up ; but in the present cirteitilstances of the cetintry, there could be no objection to the re• peal of this duty, which amounted to but 400/. There was another duty of 3s. on small Horses em ployed by farmers in agriculture, and also in trade, which produced 6.5001. This he proposed to ahanjon. Having stated these absolute repeals which he meant, to recommend, he came now in addition to state, that he intended to submit to the ComMittee a reduction of 50 per cent. in the duties on Horses, Carriage 7s, and Servants. These imposts, though they might be supposed to fall, for the most part, on persons of con sidereble means, pressed also on those who were en• titled to relief. The first item—the duties on Male Servants, amounted to I:159,500; that on persons employed as Cierks gave to the Revenue 1:9F.,030; the duty on four-wheeled Carriages, which he pro posed to reduce, amounted to £145,000.; that on two-wheeled Carriages, to £98,090; and the -tax which he proposed to take off of Riding Horses he estimated at 1./24,000; and the lower duty oallorses, which he proposed to reduce twenty per cent. would withdraw from the Revenue 1.:72,500. He now came to a subject respecting which all classes felt the deepest interest, he meant the duties on tleindoe s .— The general principle on which he proposed to act with respect to them, was to seduce them fifty per cent. but he proposed to give an abseinte repeal or the duty on one particular class. The Committee ' were probably aware that warehouses, shops, and counting-houses attached to dwelling houses, were aiready exempt. He meant to propose the total ex s emptibn of the ground floor windows of all shops, $ whether sack-short were attached to houses. or not, He thought the relief rhos afforded to the small trader I would enable hint to compere with those . wbo hut • • . , • '.•-*a• - .r I - i ;.present an nnfair ads-it - Inge over him, the owners 0. ! moveable shaps,, who sold their goods from a cal tail. The duty thus Abandoned I.4'r:tad amount to 1 IZO,OOOI. The total Zniruint of taxes [o be reduced was 2.233,0004 With resrect to Ireland, he had to announce a measure of verr COnsi,ierah!e importable: he proposed at once to repeal all the /Wessel T'xes. tie was sure the people in England would not be grudge this relied to their fellow-subjects in Ireland. Elie amount of these . 4 .ities was 100,0001. He did not know that this repeal would produce any real de• falcation in the Revenue, but at all events he was aurtioas*to witness the effect of a measure like that which 11:t now recononeinied and_ he thought the equalization of the Engl;sh a. 1.1 Irish Duties would nea:ly compensate for giving up the Assessed Taxes. 'There was no , one connected with I. eland who did not lament the consequences of the present Distillery rata s. It was known that they occa;ioac.igr . eat_ dis tr,•si, nriAry, and interruption of social intercourse. .H., manner in which they were nice sarily collected created alarm. The Distillery Laws made it the in terest of the landlord to protect his tenant in the violation, and they niadt it the interest of their tee nant to live in opppositien, to the law. He could conceive no state of society more lamentable.— There was nothing to keep the people of that court try together, b u t e v er) thi n ,' to produce and perpe tuate o tuate the most fatal sepa:ation. He therefore could not look on the Distillery Laws without wishing to alter them, to restore the blessing of social .inter course. Such was the o bj ec t o f the measure w hi c h he meant to propose, namely, a great reduction in the duties on Irish Spirits. Whether the measure would succeed or not Goo only knew, but at all events the cxpeaiment was worth making. Even if it would have the effect cf defeating his calculation as to the Surplus Revenue of the year (which he did not expect),•he should. still be anxious to *attempt to remedy the evil which he had de•cribed.• He had now concluded his statement.• The result was, that we had an increased Revenue; but he ought first .to have stated that we had an increased Com merce, which had produced an increased consump tion and increased coniforts to the People, which naturally gave an 'increase in the Revenue—(Cheers). We had a surplus,' of which a portion could he ap. plied to the reduction of the Debt, and the remainder might he giyento the Public in the remission of Taxis, which' very'remission would, in its effects, tend to compensate the Revenue for the reductions now made. He called upon the Committee, after hear ing this statement, to look back, as he did, to the `efOrts which the country had used—to the dangers which it had braved—to the difficulties which it had surmounted—and to the sacrifices it had made, to ac complish those great ohjects—he called upon 'them to look back on these things, and to recognize iu the fortitude which had been preserved so long, and which had accomplished so much, a living proof of the veneration and attachment of the people of Eng land to those Blot loos institutions, which, claiming civil and religious liberty for their basis, were the mighty unbending supporters, and chief cause of the greatness and prosperity of this country.—(The Bight Hon. Gsatleman resumed leis seat amidst loud cheers from all parts of the House.) Mr. MAtII?.R.LY said, that the reductions of the flight Honourable Gentleman formed strong censure on Ministers for not having made them before. The Estimates made by Ministers for a number of years had always been exceeded. He was happy that Mi nisters bad at last attended to the recommendation of the Committee of 1E.17. Tile great question be tween the Right Ilososurable Gentleman and himself was the support of public credit. He was Of opinion that public credit could be supported, and the whole of the surplus revenue be applied to the remission of taxes. On a future day he should submit a proposi tion of that kind to the House. As the principle of the Sinking Fund had been whoa) , abandoned, it was not unfair to conclude that it had been of no avail to the support cf public credit. The redemp tion of the L:ind Tax had gone on so slowly for the last few years, that it would take five hundred years to redeem it., and .the expense would be more than the benefit; but by a change as to the mode of re- demption, forty-three millions of debt might be re deemed in seven years. At the end of that time, there would be a real and efficient Sinking Fund.-- Should . the whole seven millions be applied' to the remission of Taxes, he believed there would be an addition of one million to the Revenue. He•fully admitted the merits of the Irish Commissioners; but 3liuisters were grievously to blame in not haviag ' made that appointment at an 'earlier period. On the Beer Duty, there would be a saving of 250,0001. and if 13 millions were taken from,the Public Debt, the Funds would be so much improved, that the Four per Cents. might be converted into the Three - per Cents. and. a savinf , of 700,000 1 . be 'effected td Ilse: Public.—The • pion, Gentleman then 'read a Resolo - relative to the Sinking Fund and the:Redemp tion of the Land Tax ; importing, in substance, that the whole :even millions of surplus Revenue 'tight be applied to the diminution of taxation. Mr. ii ICA IWO complimenied the Chinieelltir of the !Ache ' quer on tht-solind and able speech which he had made to the I louse. Fr.no the sal - phis of seven million! was to tit dedtfcrCd the two millions that at re paid by the Commissioners, lie con curred in the praise of the Sinking Fond, but then it must be a real and efh , tent Fund. The plan •of his Hon. Friiroal (Mr. AlAbtrly)-for the redemption of the ..and Tax, he fully concur red in. Mini.ters in the same 'breath 'stated thit the Sinking Fund could he applied both to paYiriroff the tikbt-and providing . fur the expenses of a war.. , • • - Mr. -BA KI NG was also of • opinion 'that the dear Sinking Fund was three and lint fire millions. That 'two millions mere could be applied to the reduction of tatitlion was more than he had expected. It was imposible for the cobntry to go oewith out a surplus reveutte. It was a reconssnendetios of she - Shidtdig Fund that it could be employed, tidier for the payment oj deb t , or to provide for toe pressure of war-- Of the original•iiiinitih t t F io u n ucl o l f s ib i tf. f l u y tml apr o o o v i esl ie . coui T c lte ha e v v e onta foreseen that follow , aco v i d w the og ia 4 zt f i . T. e . the French ;Cevolution had lasted only for five or,sit y.:l - s. /le would rather take three, or two anti a half millions, as a perra a _ though a fund . of five millions perniattez:'..i i t i s l i : b le a n *: i v t r , u an n t i k e i l on o u d n ig b i l' ; ‘) , t u ir n t kl :h i r e d lsec e fo d u ur t r o e i t n h s p e is u al b t lic te ct t i c i h re t ree u d ra it i pe ' i a n r t nd ereit een enabi t4 : ol i ft . a r in ert :n ef; with the Sinking Fond world b.!wholly Militia:nut. • • The Cfl A NCELLOR (Utile F.XCHEQUIttt add, isa had forgot to state that he meant to simplify the operation - or the Sinking Fund. - Mr: ItOar.wrsoN denied that the present mode of gi4 g on is Finance was the system proper for carrying on and knsmb; • up the crealtot the country. Every new Aram of borroseltsz mot t c y was deteriorating the proper.y of ls t eirma& . • *ltt is short tune they wotad be' enable tp c tIN nits.. tied interests for seats in this House. The ' wodsc., :in ti.n,-, be ac.trovil, a: .d th e 'farce* hat/twin:l.l totter. Re o s y iosta::crd :1tt.c:.1.4 or V.n.,:e, °taw, and lionand, to proof d ___: