Star. — London, England, 1810-05-22 00:00:00

ler Id- NIC ce. by re- 2r 1 we re to• be reran* by • atrial; that *• I 4.; throw tile whole of the representation into • 1 0 i r principal towns of the county. The' free of the t”wns would uniibrmly- prevail' over the ieehol.lers of the county, bemuse they . could a i n wst a lnays outnumber them at' an-election ) and . .renly some inhabitant of the tcrwn 'would' be returned. .This would ibe 'to commute ‘county the bnrottsit electiOn. , Buv if the I • tvere to be taken by districts, it would save , e xpellee, and enable those, who at present are r. j..letrA by a consideration of the expence front of :l-rnselves to become • Candidates. • Nothing pi • - e vent the Sheriffs from taking the votes er ,.- : ::hout the different districts, without subjecting ,f a n:;idate to the expence of bringing up the free folders fr , nt the extremities of the county to the be collected election The Votes might also nlice Soot' t . i , re . g the different parishes in. populous towns. un l ess s ,‘ine such .arrangement should be made, it ir avl.l be impossible to e,tablisli triennial Parliaments vati:out producing mischiefs of the most dangerons ti „ .l ,-„, : y. He htd thus briefly gone through the swinent of the plan he had to recoinm:nd, and in or d er to prevent all misapprehension or' misconstruc tion of its 'lawn', must beg td recapitulate its princi. p4l sithiect had been repeatedly dis coid, and a great variety of oninions was entertain don• No man could, therefore, enter into the que , t io without feeling much dtfficulty and some in. convemicnce. TO guard against misconception, there. l i v aild mt.! tt.• that he did not mean to touch cl young for county Members, except by.let: t i, r4 ;it c opyholders, and assimilating the mode of vo tiltz tn Scotland to that practice in this country ; that wh i st h e l e ft the right of voting untouched, he s hotud propose to di4rancliiso the borougl.s in which I ft Mtaulu rs were returned upon the nomination of irdividuals ; and, as the numbers of tlie House of Comm , as w , old be diminished in that proportion, t , ti-r6fer the rjit of returning such Members to pipt ao tt s towns, and to apply any surplus to popu imis comities ; that he would recommend the dura tion Parliament to be made triennial, together with a concurrent arrangement for collecting the votes by districts ant parishes. This was what he had to prcp , se ; but there was another point remaining, to whic:l it WAS necessary to call the attention of the House, and which would require a remedy, Nix. the n umber of persons holding places and seats in that H. tisr. (Hear, 121-a:-.) Something, was necessary übe tL tie ;:n that head ; but he was ready to admit that Ile Lid not think that all persons holding cnlice:i s °,rt:ld he excluded from that House. He was con . hoaever, that persons holding offices witl.out eTpi.sil):l:z: - should nct be suffered to have seats in ; he hop4d, theref:•re,. that a Bill would . . to exclude such persons from Par:ja i...en:. On these grounds, he had felt it a duty he cJitivry to bring, forward his motion, and L e trus ted the 1-I.atse would give it all the attention i: &served. Of one thing he was sure, that they must eithrr have a temperate reform or a military Geverarnent—(Hear, hear.) In saying that, he was pet actna!ed by any hostility towards the Gentlemen opposite (on the Treasury Bench), or any feeling of tochment to the Gentlemen on the same side with limscif. The people demanded a moderate reform as ri!: ! !,t, and if their demand were not com illA , nld enleavour to assert their right.— Itlat the rintilt of such a struggle might be, it was TA for him to .ilitici i ,,tte ; but its his conscience he klieved that the c:itin•sy must have a moderate re form, t. r it I be subjected to a military govern ment. Ifthr. House were to reject the former, then the sun of the nation's freedom and greatness is: to:• ever set; but it', on the contrary, that House shants.h..,! pt Heim, then would the sun of Britain r,c irons its present dark horizon, and again shine frh in :II the splendour of meridian lustre. •He s o :' flit trespass longer upon the attention of the ti cone:tided by moving, • '1 .. 11 aC- nittee he appointed to inquire into the state of tititeprcs.i.:at.un of the People in that House, to consider of tie rito.. tt. 11 means of reforming it, and to report this same, in:h their (Thiele, then-on to the House." Mr. DXVIES GIDDY telt-that the present was a qtk,iiea t of great dill - lenity ; but it was a question had nevertheless engaged his most serious con tikr.t6tei. He kit that it derived additional weight kr2m the character and talents of the Honourable Gentle= to who brought it forward ; and it was cer tainly, the most moderate and reasonable of any of the plays of reform which he had lately heard.— He thought, however, that all the reforms which he Ltd heard proposed went on a wrong principle, and that the people were virtually represented in every branch or the Legislature. He conceived that the Kite; represented the people in his executive capa city, and that the House of Lords might be conside red as hereditary reoresentatives ; for it could hardly be contended by any body that the Nobles, or he should rather say the Noblemen of this country had, any distinct interest from the rest of the people. It ras not here, as in other countries, that they formed a daiinct class ; for the Noblemen of this country saw their nearest relations, and their own children. Witd in the general mass of society. How then could they have interests different from those of the rest of the community ? He conceived, that the I Rome of Comm ons were v i rtua lly th e represent a tives of the people, although they were not absolutely their delegates. He did believe that lithe House of Com 7'',orts were really a House of delegates, it would be impossible that the other branches of the Legislature could exist in conjunction with it. Such an assem bly must be governed by every prejudice and turn of public opinion, and would absorb the whole power •fthe State. Such a great share of public feeling and sympathy would always attach to a House of de. kg%tes, that the House of Loris could not weigh as %feather in the balance against them, and, indeed, he 6,1 think it would not be long suffered to exist as a branch of the Legislature. This experiment had lately been tried in a neighbouring country (France), and the result of the experiment was in the knowledge of every person. The whole feeling of the country empathized at first with the National Assembly ; and the King Could no longer maintain the ground which the constitution of their own framing had as stued him. The history of our own country also furnished a remarkable instance how powerful a House of Commons was, around which the sk hcle people tallied, and how soon that power was likely to be abused, and in its abuse lead to the destruction of the liberties . of the country. In our Consteattion, 12° "Yers there was somethiLg of the delegate Sy stern ititermisecV.with the representadun ; for there were particular Members elected for. large, populous, and commercial towns, who might be considered. as dele gates. Now it was a matter of opinion upon which Men Might well differ, whether there was not already.', .enough of those delegates in the House of Commons wider the present system ? He would not say, that • in his opinion, it would do any harm to disfranchise two'or three rotten boroughs, and give represents-. tires to two or three populous towns that did not re turn any. *Others, however, might think, that even , now, tliere were too many Members retooled by po pular election. This opinion did not seem altogether unreasonable, when it was considered bow great a syMpathy there was between the clamour of the mob and the opinions of some Gentlemen.' He saw it laid down in all our constitutional books, that a reprenen. tative elected for any county, city, or town,. should immediately conceive himself to be the representative of the whole kingdom. How could this doctrine be reconciled with the delegate system ?. Nobody would propose that the Army and the Navy -Should send their Representatives to Parliament, or that the Inns of Courts should return Members. As the case how- ever now stands, every person that is most distin guished in the military and naval service, in the pro fession of the law, and -indeed in almost every trade or netnufactory, found its way into that House, and communicated such information as could not other• svise be obtained. He certainly was acquaint2d with some of the Boroughs in the South; one lie would ,mention, Tavistock. He did not think that Borough lad been very unfortunate in its selection of Repre sentatives. In talking of the best times of the Con stitution, he thought that he Mould speak of modern • times ; for certainly the condition of the notiTe cf Commons was not to be boasted ef at those times, when they were only assembled to grant subsi&es, and were not a part of the Legislature. Whatever defects there might be in the theory -if its construction, yet the system went on well. It aPas easy to draw plans of Constitutions ; but when they were put into execution, many-that were good in theory were bad in practice, and soon led to what was the simplest of all Constitutions, a military despotism. It would be absolutely impossible to apportion exactly the ntnae of election according to the basis of property and po pulation. It would be hard to say how many men of a certain property should halanCe r greater num ber of inferior property. A chArge had also been genevally made, which he believed a . vas considerably exaggerated. In all the Petitions now presented I.r Reform, the practice of buying and selling seats was alluded to, and he believed it was supposed to e:i;t to a much greater degree than it actually did. He did not dottbt but that perhaps 10 or 12 - sens in that House might have been so obtained. (A general la:;~li. If the election was for districts, in every district thew would be rich demagogues who would get themselves returned by their wealth and influence. Some few individuals, it was true, might purchase in for the purpose of making money ; but this was, indeed, a bad speculation. Among those who came into Par liament from the influence of property, were many West India Gentlemen. Now, when it was consi dered of what great importance the West Indies are to the Empire, and the great revenue and commerce we derive from them, it was surely not unreasonable that some Gentlemen connected with those ioterests shoub I rind their way into that House. lie wished that those who thought every thing bad in this coun try, would compare its situation with that of any other Country in the world. All other nations had sunk in the struggle with France, but this country had stood its ground. And what had the people of this country to complain of? Nothing, but an accumulation of taxes, which a war of eighteen years rendered nece-sa ry. He felt the pressure of taxes as much as any one ; but be knew that large armies and fleets were not to be kept without money. The country exhibited every mark of increasing prosperity. The canals, the docks, the public works and private specuktions that were every day going forward, shewed the great and increasing wealth of the country. The climate even was improved, dismses were banished, human life was prolonged to a greater term, as was shewn by the bills of mortality—(A laugh)—than ever it had been before. The people were better fed, and that was a reason why they should live longer. In such a state of superior comfort, was there en • body who would wish to throw all oar national prosperity to hazard, merely because they thought that one individual (Gale Jones) who had libelled the House, had been punished in rather too summary a mode, or that an Honourable Baronet had been sent to the Tower for .t violation of the privileges of the House. He was ready to contend that cur Government, and eve-y Government except an absolute tyranny, must be con sidered representative. He then recapitulated the ob servations he had already made, and declared that he was afraid of the first step to Reform, however inno cent it might seem. About the duration of Parlia ments, there would be also a great difference of opi nion. One man would Wish for a triennial Parliament, another would be forannual Parliaments, while a third, whose bear periods recurred oftener (a latch), might wish them monthly. Even if this Bill should pass, some would complain that the freeholders and copy holders engrossed the elective franchise. He feared it any changes were made in our Constitution, they would finally lead us through the storms of demo cracy and anarchy, into the gulph of despotism. Mr. NOEL supported the motion of Mr. Brand. He by no means wished to change the Constitution of the country, but merely to remedy those abuses which had been produced by time. When it was re collected that it had been offered to be proved at the Bar of the House that no less than 150 seats were disposed of by the nomination of a few individuals, he ought it was evident that some reform was ne na ry, and the Reform proposed by his Honourable Friend appeared to him moderate and reasonable. Lord MILTON, after what had passed, demanded to be informed where was the zra to which Gentle men would assimilate the Constitution of that House ? Was it to the :era of the Tudors, or was it to that of the Stuarts? NVnat were now deemed to be abuses, had grown up with the Constitution of the State. — Members of that House, at its best times, had sat for Boroughs (Sarum and Gatton), which his Honoura ble Friend wished to blot out of the map of the State —Boroughs, indeed, which had been the means of introducing to that House some of t::e brightest or naments of Parliament. The plan was fair to look on, ent i c i ng to contemplate ; but he could not flatter his Honourable Friend by son:ix-till it. Gentlemen 'were delighted with new constittakms t. new. the Atherican.constitution was new, one of the great ex • periments of the new school I and yet, would any one say that the constitution of A mer ic a was su i te d to In? (Rea, hear.) Should the present'plaa go into a Coro, mittee, what other extrivagant plans of , the sort .might not be proposed there I Every One might haye his OWH plan of Reform ; and each bent to propose and support , hisnwn measure. He would not, how- _ . sever; tin one i let out on a chivalrous enterprize after • coustitittion , :.—(lietio, hear, hear.) The very pro [posal for a Committee proved that his Honourable Friend did not know • what proceeding to determine lon : he would rath:r have seen some specific remedy, by ,way of Bill; trom him ; since, as it was, he_ did • Inot see where his tionournble Friend meant to lead I him Delegation wonld make them merely a Congress lnE AmbaistdArs met to confer on terms marked out thernotud instead of a.general representation eadt one for the 'whole, the Count:) , would be districted by an individual representation. Yet liow wits such representation to take place ? If those only who paid !taxes were to vote, taxes wilre changeful ; and the state of the representation mast alter with them.--; There was, however, no - man who did nut in tome shape. pay taxes ; since no man could buy chlla a hat, or a coat, or a jacket, or even a pair of shoes, who did not pay taxes ; and the veriest beggar in the stretts was, on this principle, entitled to vote for re presentatives. Were they to p , p by the p. 711? ,It would he found impossible, cveu in Westmin,ter, get the vcte of each man.. Convinced as he %vas of the impracticability of recurring to. the genuine theo, ry of the CoAstitution, he saw nothing but objections thepropcmil. - The state of poli;ical electron w:►s . such, bowl:vet-, tliAt the people might choose rcpt.:men . . tatives after their own hearts.— (7lear,' they had done, this they might still do. Ili? there ,fore mnst deprecate all iliac:ovation*, pArticul.arly wli.tt w.ts now projected ; it was Labouring to satkly characters, who were determined nT:t to I;e satisfied with them.— (Laugh: and icars). He s.tw neither ex pediency nor necessity in the proposal of his Honour able ,friend. Sir JOHN NEWPORT contended, that the plan proposed was no innovation wliatever of the. Consti tution, and wasisupported by many precedents, both in this kingdom, and on the records of the Irish Par liiment. His Noble Friend (Lord Milton) had,ad ve7ted to America, but the proof that the Constitu- tion of that country had not tailed was, that thz. peo ple were satisfied : the taxes were small; the national debt crib nS ; the b , arthen on the nation at large light; and ali the euds of Government fully answered. He was the laic man who would pull down the fabric because it wanted repair ; he Would renevate it. In going into a Committee on this question, he could not conceive that it was necessary to go any steps further dun they thought f - h ; they would there be enabled to exercise their deliberate judgment, better than having it before the whole House ; and for these reasons he supported the motion. Sir JAMES PULTENEY complained of the no. dons scattered abroad, and which it carried into effect would lead to an absolute democracy, tbr the nature of every power 'always tended to the increase. He would judge of the present Government by its conse quences. There was no complaint that it encroached en civil liiierty, that justice was badly admnistered, that property was insecure, but on the contrary ; and, these blessings he would pi eier to the finest theories which could be devised. He thought it a most ex trtordinary thing to hear the failure of the Walcheren Expedition, and of other Expeditions, adduced as a motive for a Perliementary Reform ; for how could such a reform enable Ministers to conduct 'heir Ex peditions better, or how could it prevent the frequent recurrence of war ? The fact was, that the ieeople in many instances had been as willing for war as Go. vernment ; and here the Right Honourable Baronet took a review of the late wars, within a certain period, to prove this assertion. If any such complaints had been made as these to which he alluded in the beginning of his speech, he would think that some grounds had been adduced fur Reform ; but he wseild not enter into the subject to flatter popular opinions ; for was the House to give way, we should go from perfection to perfection, till at last we should be brought to a complete democracy, or to a military despotism. Mr. JACOB was firmly of opinion, that if all the Members ter Boroughs had been out of the House when the cfuestion on the Walcheren Expedition had, been brought forward, the decision would have been eearly the same. He quoted the instance of the great E irl of Chatham having been a Member for Old; Sarum ; and maintained that the only salutary re form—the only one that would be beneficial to the , Electors, would be a reform in the expenditure. Mr. STOURGES BOURNE did not believe that public opinion ran so contrary to the decisions of the House as some Gentlemen had represented it. But it was natural for men thinking warmly, and whose opinion happened to differ from those of the majority of the House, to suppose that others shared in their sentiments. He adverted to the cry raised by Sir Francis Burdett about Mena Charta being explicit against the imprisonment of the subject by order of the House; and suppose that the Hon. Baronet had considered that ancient document as dormant during the whole of the last session, when he attended in his place, and saw General Clavering and others com mitted on the Speaker's warrant. He demanded at • what period of our history the constitution was like what was at present demanded ? He adverted to the composition of Parliament, and to their functions as stated in Magna CliJrta; and they were, he asserted, so completely in contradiction with any thing practi-; cable in these days, that he was more and more ' con vinced, that .112 - . 7 na Charta had been much morel talked of than read. It had been enacted in times of servitude ; it contained a variety of regulations I quite foreign to the present Parliamentary business ; such as ecclesiastical regulations, for instance. In , fact, it only shewed the luxuriance of feudality at that time, and could not possibly form rules for • the present. The Honourable Member maintained, on the contrary, that the elections were now more popu lar than at anv other period. If Boroughs had been deserted, the depreciation of money had so much re. (bleed the real value of the forty shilling freeholds, that a much greater number of people now enjoyed the elective franchise, than was at first intended. That sum had been fixed in the reign of Henry VI. under Q wen Anne-the proportion was fixed at £l‘.: . , forty years ago at £ 4 20, and he would leave Gentlemen to Judge ought to be the Folio:deo now. In answer to tho objection, that the House as at present comp favoured wars. he Tinted instances of . arar. most popu lar, and of Members diszarded by thcit constituents toe opposing so& wars. As to itu tavottrin;, , the increas : of taxation, lw did not think that people were vi. surd AS not to consider that the • 'Nem at t!e ; same -Lime tat.):;ng thomselvt:4, and tn.:: horn t;44 r prope:-ty great part of those I).3rther.l :. 3 up', them, ~ which . th.y were not of course likcly to incr....4 necess•Jrily ; indee.l, s i nce h e 1 11 1 th!ll•moj r o f .1 sett in that House, he had seen the g tea:.s 'WM. VIM to the poorer classes in this relict. lie conside:ed the plan of his Honourable Frioad, Whatever :moil& be its mer't, as not likely to sati - s.fy the Fork, whoec petitions thy had receivel; Indeed, it wai evident that nothing short of Sir Francis Ilurdett's plan would satisfy tiv:m ; and that plan went vet y short (it tinker. sal suffrage. On Cie other ;Lind, the small number e petitions they had received on that subj: et slier:l4llw • fallacious was the opiuiln tl:ft a wig!) or rs•fOrm the general feeling of the petople - of ;2.agland. Ezpe rimmts on absolute popular ele.croothad already made in Francs; tut ion A rns”re-t; both they h.,a cnm pleicly failed ; aktd he had bs:om surprZlsc.i :t hearing an Hon. Bartinet stAnd forth lit - (ls:tenet cf the 0.0-vsanment vsanment of the last named countl-v. To America. he was himself a stranger ; but he La i seen reperts from that conntry,he had heard the testimony of eye witnesses, one of eeliom had asserted, Ant a ", repec. table tradesman would not suffer his s'fltimen to talk in.,the way Members of . Congress - cf.:J..'r A Iklemi?or of • another li aus r, WilOW atithbrity surd very high, and wile, lrad he. an eye-witness, had also declared, Ow in America t 1 experirnent, had been fairly tried, a::d had cottirletely Lad:— In such a state of the qucstion, he could not'sufficientla• wonder .0 the Ho. nuttrabio Bateau t's assertions. in the ( present situa tion of affairs, he trusted the' Mouse would be can. dots how they entertained exi:erintental proj...cts on the ConAitution. Mr. WA RD r.r rose for the purpose of offering some explanation, in consequence of what had fallen from the last speaker, of the plan proposed by his Hon. Friend, now a prisoner in the Tower, and in doing which he would endeavour to be as short as possible. The Han. Member had misrepresented the plan pro posed by his Hon. Friend, in stating that it proposed universal suffrage. The two, propositions brought forward by his Honourable Friend had for their ob ject, the limiting the duration of Parliaments, and the extension of the elective franchise. These were the principles which he submitted to Parliament, leaving it to its wisdom and discretion to devise the means of carrying them into execution. His object wasi to bring Parliament back to its original duration, and; to make property the basis of political power. —Was there any thing like a proposal for universal suffrage in this last proposition ? The extent of his Hon. Friend's proposal was, that every person con tributing directly to the payment of taxes, should be entitled to vote. Who, in fact, were so likely to be independent in their votes as those who were able to pay the heavy burdens imposed upon them ? Tho Hon. Member who spoke last stated, that the num ber of • the Constituent Body was much increased.— He admitted it Was ; but still he would contend, that it bore no proportion to the population of the coun t! y. As property- was the basis of taxation, no pe t• son should be taxed who was not . represented. [ he Hun. Member here took a review of the Constitution of the House of Commons from the earliest period.] In the reign of Charles the Second Parliamerits were triennial ; and he found, in the Preamble to tho Bill of Rights, an account of the advantages re sulting from the frequent calling of Parliaments. —ln the year 1716, during the reign of George the First, the duration of Parliaments was extended to seven years ; an act as unconstitutional as any of those for which Charles the First 'lost his head.— Never was there a more arbitrary proceeding than the Septennial Act. It was at this time that a standing army was established. So that these two measures went, as it were, band in hand • or, as was well ex pressed by an able Lawyer of that day, " A standing Parliament and a standing army were fit and conver tible instruments to support each other." He would not take up more of the time of the House, but repeat wkat he arose to declare, that the principle of his Honourable Friend's plan was, that taxation and re. presentation should go hand in hand, and that Par liament should be brought back to its ancient dura tion. If the elective franchise was given to all per sons paying taxes, there would soon be an end No corruption. Mr. WHITBREAD begged the indulgence or the House while he stated shortly why he agreed in the motion of his Honourable Friend, which was admit ted by every person who had spoken in the debate.to be both rational and temperate. The motion was not new in that House, though it might be to many of those oho sat in it. It had often been the subject of discussion, and had been supported by men of the greatest abilities. It was with this subject Mr. Pitt commenced his brilliant political career; and so near was he succeeding in it, that he was defeated by a majority of only twenty-one. Whatever difference of opinion might exist in the House respecting the expe diency of Parliamentaty Reform, there seemed to be but one opinion as to the candour, the explicitness, anti tl:e moderation of his Honourable Friend's plan. The Honourable Gentleman below him (Mr. Giddy) and the Honourable Member who spoke last, had not dealt fairly by his Honourable Friend. They appeared to ascribe to him to have had no other motive for bringing forward the subject of Parliamentary Reform than to comply with the popular effervescence. He could state from his own knowledge, that at the con clusion of the last of the divisions on the Walcheren Expedition, his Honourable Friend mentioned tAirn that he was inclined to give notice of a motion for a Parliamentary Reform. He dissuaded him from R. and he had the goodness to follow his advice. How could it be said that his motion of this night sprung out of the transactions of the last few weeks, or the commitment of Sir Francis Burdett to the Tower?— The question had been agitated for half a century, during which it underwent the discussion of some of the greatest men that the House ever saw. It was the constant and favourite theme of Mr. Pitt, in his early days. It was brought forward again in 1793, when he first had the honour of supporting it. It was again the subject of discussion i 11797, Witt n he also supported it • at d he would now give hs vote for it i 1810. He wo.ild have supported S r Frareis Burdett's proposition last year, had 11, been in Ms place ; lac the w4rthy Baronet's notice wae.ao *on,