Star. — London, England, 1822-04-04 00:00:00

7'. - - - yr 7w•ligp•ringr'"www PARLIA WENTARY PROCEEDINGS. HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 5. Their Lordships met at twelve o'clock, to hear Appeals. Coos, Appellant ; the Areasser-Gxwearm, Respondent. This was en appeal from the Court of Session (Scotland)., Judgment of the Court below affirmed. Casatce, Appellant; MoiTIN, Respondent. This was en appeal from the Court of Session (Scotland). The Arroarszr-Gzusiuit. and Mr. ROIZILISON were beard for' the appellant, and Mr. Museer, in part, for.the Respondent.—. Further argument postponed. • - The Royal Assent was given by Commission to the Irish Five per Cents. Bill, the Admiralty Quorum Bill, the Malt Duties Repeal Bill, the Solicitors a nd Attornies' Regulation Bill, and the Norfolk Jail Bill. The Commissioners were the Loan CHANCILLOIL, Earl of SHAFTESBURY, and Lord Mammas. The Dublin Fever Hospital Bill, and Stolen Goods Bill, were read a third time and passed. Lord REDESDALE presented a Petition from the Cheva lier Ruspini, praying for an amendment in the Bankrupt Laws, by providing that no commission should issue unless the debt of one petitioning creditor should amount to £lOO. Isle. BROGDIM Ind other Members of the House of Commons brought up the Innkeepers' Regulation Bill, and a Private Bill, which were read a first time. Lord MELVILLE moved, that the 7th, Bth, and Bth Re ports of the Commissioners to inquire into the Fees and Emolu ments of the (Xficers of the Courts of Justice in Scotland should be laid before their Lordships.—Ordered. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Lord ERSKINE presented two Petitions, one from the County of Gloucester, and another from Kent, complaining of Agricultural Distress. He said he had hitherto abstained from entering into any observations on the subject of the distresses so univer.ally complained of, because he waited for the Report of the Committee of the other House of Parliament. The Re port was at length produced, and in it was stated the causes of the distress in question, which was an unlimited importation of cora. Here the Noble and Learned Lord read an extract from the Report, being that part which related to the great glut of fbreign corn. The Report, no doubt, did most ably describe the great danger which hung over the agricultural world; but the remedy which the Report proposed was only an aggravation of the evil, because they recommend the opening of the ports when the price of corn was 70 shillings, whereas now they could not be opened until the price was 80 shillings a quarter. He hoped, therefore, that their Lordships would resist any Bill that might come from the other House providing such a re medy as this. The LORD CHANCELLOR here interposed, by observing, that the Report of the Committee of the other [louse was ex pected, as a message had been sent for a copy of it. Tie Re port, however, had not yet been laid before that House, and until it was, all observations en the subject must be irregular and improper.—The Petitions were read and laid on the table. Tit House then adjourned to Thursday, the 18th instant. HOUSE OF COMMONS. The Set:arse was summoned to the House of Lords, and, on hlsivturn, announced that the Royal Assent was given by com mission to certain Bills ; for which see Lords report. Mr. C. CALVERT presented a Petition from the Inhabit ants of the Borough of Southwark, within the jurisdiction of the Court of Requests, complaining of excessive tees, and praying that leave may be giv:-n to bring in a Bill to regulate the same.— The Petition was ordered to be referred to a Committee to ex amine it and report thereon. Mr. W ROT I'ESIPN moved for Returns of the number of Country Bank-notes in circulati”n between the 10th of October, 1810, and the 10th of October, 1821 ; together with the number of Stamps issued to Country Banker. during the same period. The LORD ADVOCATE moved that the Bill to abolish Commissariat Courts in Scotland be read a liras time.—Bead a Just time. DISSENTERS MARRIAGES. 3!r. W. SMITH presented a Petition from certain Protest ant l)ksenters in the County of Kent, who objected to the doc trine of the Trinity. The Petitioners complained thiethei were by the existing laws subjected to much hsrdship and inconveni ence with respect to the Marriage Ceremony, and prayed for relief. The same lion. Member also presented Petitions of a simil it nature from the following places :—Tavistock, in the e it:my of Devon ; Chichester, Dover, Hackney, and Lambeth. Mr. W. SM IT e 1 then observed, that he had gives notice that be woad en the 17:h of April move fur leave to bring in a Bill to remove the evil of which the Petitioners complained. The measure which he intended to propose for their relief appeared to be simple and practicable, but it was unimportant in what manner the rebel should be afforded, so that it was administered effectually. - TIIE CATHOLIC QUESTION. - - _ 111 r. CANNING said, that several inquiries had been directed to him. having fur their object to learn whether the notice which be had fixed tur the 30th• of April, for a motion upon the subject of Roman Catholic affairs, were conditional or ',waive? In order to remove all doubt upon tb.• subject, he now gave notice, that he would positively bring forward the motion on the ZOth of ArtiL ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE. I • . • The Marquis of LONDONDERRY moved that the House, at its rising, do adjourn to that day fortnight, Wednesday, the I:th of ApriL—Agrtecl to. AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. Mr. BENETT Wiltshire) presented a Petition from the County of Wilts, complaining of Agricul tural Di ,tress, and praying for relief. It was not diffi cult to conjecture, he said, what feeling would be excited amongst those who looked forward for relief to the labours of the Agricultural Committee, when they read the Report, and found their hopes disap pointed : they could not but be astonished at the wis dom ad* Parliament—at least of that House, on whom their expectations rested, when they saw there was no remedy to those distresses proposed—certainly none that could afford any immediate relief. There was a monopoly in the market for the last three years; but whether the Report of the Agricultural Committee would add to that monopoly, he would not say ; he conceived that every principle of monopoly was false, and no means should be adopted thltt tended to en courage such a system. It was almost time to esta blish some fixed principle, that fair and liberal one of a free 'trade, which, hefeared, could not be reason ably expected, unless we had the power to take off all the obstructions that impeded it. lie wished to make an observation on one point. Much bad been said of the amount of taxation with which the land was burdeneJ—that taxation which alone prevented the British farmer from meeting the foreign growers of corn ; it was estimated at 16s. per acre; he Consi dered it to be much higher. Before the year 1792 it was estitnated that. the rent of a farm should be in the proportion of one-third of its gross produce ; that proportion was no longer observed, and the occupier of the soil must now make it -yield four times and one-half the amount of the rent, to enable him to satisfy his landlord. The rate of taxation, including the Poor;'-rate, had increased on land to one-ninth of its gross produCe;'or at least 50 per cent.'on the pre sent finer. He was of opinion that it was more to the advantage of the farmerto have the price of corn at six shillings the bushel, than to . sell it at ten shil lings, with a seppotid•prcfit . of onisliilling,.fiom the increased' expenses now attendant upon it, and the necessity for the employment of more capital. The Language of the occupier of land almost amounted to • We have received nothing from its cultivation, '',give it back Again to our landlords. They watate of:almost utter despair. He, for one, eonsider•thvenie so-very dEplorable as many Are:feltittti be f lnctigibent. on the House to • tig4loy r ilitliefice, .11nd to meet them imitortaut-And 'decisive steps. -They were • , .;~, called on to do for !R, 47* IU-society, the they did not at , portion of the firer, ter d d ePlore n given before, if the country was f orc ed new war, or attacked by a foreign foe. He though t that the ouse should not let the subject drop, Or let the opinion go abroad that they were indifferent to the sufferings of the people, or. inclined to turn a deaf ear to their complaints. The Hon. Member then „Inoved that the Petition be brought up. Mr. ELLICE said, that he did not rise to Oppose the bringing in of the Petition ; his object in rising . Was' to do that which he was desirous of doing last night, when the Report of the Agricultural Committee was brought down, that of drawing the attention of the House to that Report. He hid no doubt but that it was the anxious wish of the Noble Lord opposite to deprecate any discussion at this moment. 'He was also certain that, when the Committee was appointed, It was not contemplated •to afford by it any relief to the distresses of the country, but that it was got up for the purpose of withdrawing for a time the atten tion of the House and of the- People, trout any consi deration of the sufferings of agriculture. The Cbm mince have been engaged six weeks, and the result loltheir deliberation was contained in the Report be fore them. He asked the House what benefits could arise from that Report,. or from the sitting of the Cornminee ? Would it not have been better, in tiTe early part of the Session, to have declared to the country that they were placed under so great a weight of taxation they could not venture to offer it any partial relief? When hd looked in the Report, he was convinced that one subject only had engaged the minds of the Committee—how they could raise the price of corn in this country—(Hear, hear, hear). they had fairly told the House that such was their intention, would any person have ventured to recommend their appointment ? They had been guilty of omissions of many points which required their attention. They state in one paragraph that they do not pretend to inquire if the distress cf agriculture be owing to over-production or not ; they only sought to give as fair a remuneration to the grower of our produce as was consistent with the in terests of the consumer. If the Committee above stairs had determined to do their duty, they would have investigated the causes f the distress, and have inquired if it was to be attributed to over-produc- . tion or to taxation ? The erroneous measures o f 1819, with respect to the currency of the realm, they have also kept out of their attention, and occupy the time of .six weeks in alone considering in v hat man ner they could most effectually raise the pi ice of corn. The Report, in his opinion, was altogether a tissue of nonsense. lt began by stating that the Commit tee considered one of the causes of the present agri cultural distress to be the immense quantity of grain overloading the market at Clark-lane. If they pro perly considered the subject, they might have attri buted that glut to the damp state in which the har vest was got in last season. The farmers were of ne cessity compelled to thresh out all that moist grain, and force it to a market. To that cause he ascribed the overloading of the supply. When it was stated that the aver age 'price of corn now was 475. all that inferior and damp quantity was included ; but if they I.:oked at the price of good corn, such as it was fit the interest of the consumer to purchase, that pr ice was nut the average. Not only .here, but in every part of the kingdom, really good and sound corn was at an average of -from 55i. to 60s.the quarter, greater .by 25 or 30 per cent. than .in any otter country in &trope. Was not the.price of labour dependant on the price of food, and if they raised the price of the latter on the industrious and operative classes in this country, would they not force them to abandon it, as had been once the case in Holland ? The Com mittee were altogether mistaken in their views. It was impossible in a commercial country to raise the price 01 corn to a disproportion with that of labour. If they looked back to a period before the war, they would find that grain was higher in this country - than in any other. He was anxious not to trouble the House at further length on the subject, but he hoped that it would indulge him in drawing its attention to the further absurdities of the system adopted. He was convinced the country would see that the Commit tee had no other view than to assist the Government to get over the greater part of the Session without meeting the question of the necessities of-the People. He would take the liberty of stating what he consi dered to be the main cause of the present distress.—• There was one admission in the Report on which he would observe. It was, that a great alteration had been made in the currency of the kingdom, and - in consequence of *bat alteration they recommend the importation price to be reduced from 80s. to 70s.— But they were doing nothing by that alteration ; it was merely an attempt to place the average price of gritin at that height which was intended to be effected by a former Bill. He considered that the circulation of the country was made op at various times of country bankers notes. If they looked back to the number stamped, they would find iLto bein 1814, eleven millions; in 1816, seven millions; in 1818, twelve millions; in 1820, two millions and a half.— The currency of Scotland fluctuated exactly in pro portion .to the amount of country bankers . notes, stamped there at the same time. At the period of passing the Bill of 1819, he had given it as his opi nion that the currency was then at its greatest de preciation. In 1818, the debt owing from the coun try to the Bank was at its utmost extent. The - issues of the Bank -were then the greatest ; the country bankers notes were then most abundant. If there were any dates in existence to rest upon, he was jus tified in saying, that in the year 1818 the currency was at its lowest state of depreciation; no better proof than this could be-afforded, that while these fluctuations took place, the fluctuation in the price of gold was five per cent. The. House well knew that a restoration of the currency would not benefit the operative classes; the value of labour at Coven try, which lie had the honour to represent, had not fallen in value since .1818, while the price of pro- .; duce in the same time had fallen. one-half. The ope ration of the Bill of 1819 had, in his opinion, the effect of imposing a tax of SO per cent. on all descrip.' Lions of property. There was one point in which his 'would agree with his Majesty's Ministers, that if they even took off all taxes that the income of the country would admit of, to the amount of the Sink- '' °4 "” part _ _ country humble to these causes. He did not think it pos sible, within the present Session, to digest any effi cient plan of general relief or. practical utility. .411 that Parliament could do was to consider how taxaH don could be reduced, and to effect every saving that was possible. He trusted that, after the recess,i the House would, endeavour to reduce tazatiod, so, far as it was within their . power to do so, Without, affecting she amount of revenue necessary for the; payment of the interest of the National Debt. He: hoped that, before the next Session, some effectual, plan would be adopted to satisfy the country, and l afford equal , relief to all classes of the cOmmunity.—l At present there was a gradual revolution 'taking; place in all property, not dissimilar from that which, attended the French Revolution, but fortunately , without the possibility of the fatal consequences that ensued in that country. The only remedy proposed in the Report was that of a loan of one million on corn to be warehoused ; but his opinion on that point was, it was to be given • solely with a view to en hance the price of grain. He felt that, after the un equivocal declaration.of agricultural distress—after the various petitions presented at the bar, that some relief was due to that class of society. He was as willing as any other person to afford it all relief that could be given without placing fresh burthens on the shoulders of any other portion of the community. To that extent he would most cordially agree—( Hear). Mr. FR ANKLAND LEWIS did not consider the present to he the moment to enlarge upon the Report. on the table, or to discuss at length the topics it em braied. But the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Ellice) had so strongly censured the Agricultural Committee, that he felt the necessity of saying a few words, arid would do so in the confidence that neither the House nor the country would concur in the strong censures he had applied. He must differ most essentially with. the Hon. Gentleman on the plan which he considered the Committee should have adopted. He said that we should have investigated the cause of the dis• tresses. and how far they were referable to taxation, or to a change in the value of the currency ; but he (Mr. Lewis) begged to dissent from that opinion, and for this reason—he had heard, over and over again, from Hon. Members, that the distress was attributable to T: e change in the currency effected by the Bill of 1819, but he never heard any Member of the House have the hardihood to propose the repeal of that measure. Then, without any instruction of that nature, he asked, should the, Committee have S at tempted to rip up that question? The Hon. Member had said that they should have brought down a state••• ment how far the sufferings of the country were in fluenced by taxation, as well as a statement how they were to be relieved; but it was a power they had not. They were not authorised to hunt out for points un- connected with the strict line of duty they had to perform. The Committee at present was but a sequel to that of last Session, which had the most extended view of the question, and had gone over all. that matter before. ,It was utterly impossible and unwise, to travel,,over and over again, the same ground which had been fully marked out last year. It was his opi nion there was nothing censurable in that omission. He would take this opportunity of declaring, on his own part and on that of the Committee, that it never entered into their contemplation to increase the pro hibition that now existed against the importation of foreign grain, with a view to raise the price of corn. "'lmre certainly were individuals Who did wish to do so in the Committee, but the majority was ever stu dious not in any way to increase the importation price, but to change the mode of its operation. Such being the fact,he should consider him elf to be blame able if lie did not resist the imputation. Mr.WESTERN said, that he could not agree with the general censure that had been cast by his Hon. Friend (Mr. Ellice) on the Committee, of which he was a Member. He concurred with the Hon. Gen tleman opposite (Mr. Lewis), that the consideration of the reduction of taxation was not referred to the Committee. He was inclined to do every justice to the motives by which that body had been actuated, but he was compelled to declare that he did not con cur in all its resolutions. Ile wished to state that, in point of fact, the Committee was but a continuation of that of the last year, called for by the numerous petitions and allegations of distress which were sub-' milted to the House. They considered that the Act Of 1815 was mainly defective, as it contained no .check to any quantity of grain being poured into the country, and which had actually occurred to an im mense extent. The Committee had tried to get over that obvious grievance. They had applied a remedy which he considered would be perfectly incompetent, and would place the agricUlturist in a worse situation than before. He applauded the spirit that induced them to recommend that remedy, but he was of opi nion that they 'were egregiously mistaken. It would only insure the dissatisfaction of the farmer. Even if the measure, in a long course of events, should prove beneficial to all parties, and be found alike serviceable to the agriculturist and the consumer, it was most inexpedient at this moment. From the un certain state of the currency—the unsettled situation of the country, he Was at a loss tO,know how such a duty as was proposed could operate to give relief,.or effectually lessen the distress.• Ile had said, on a former night, that two-thirds of the farmers of Essex,' if called upon to make up their accounts, would be, &rind bankrupt. This fact he would now repeat, believing, as he did, that it could not be controverted. —He knew that the capital of the agriculturists was quite exhausted. Did not this prove the necessity of inquiring minutely into the nature of the distress?, He contended, that it was impossible to say that the alteration of the currency had not produced, a great part of the distress under which the whole country was now suffering. He had read a speech of the Right Hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Huskisson), in which he admitted that a portion of the distress was attributed to the alteration in the value of money. That speech had been delivered in the year 1817. tow, it was said, that over-production, combined ith the alteration in the currency, was the great louse of the evil. For himself, he must sa*,, thit be thought the alteration in the currency the greatest share in it. There was no comparison 9 • " whatever between th e distill's which existed in thi s country, on ise e nen. and that which t prevailed to a.certain' ex . tent In rranve, thoagh the prices were low, there were not the same mischievous effects restating from them as in England; nor were alt articles of cOtitmerce, such as iron, copper, &c. de. preciated in France as in this county. He woul d :ay, without feat' of ContridiCtion; ehe earnBi tied operation of the Act of 1797, with the Act of 1819, had brought about all our prefeet clkentities- - 11.1 z it bad been said, by an Honourable Member on ti,e other side, that no man yet had been found wi:h hardihood enough to propose an 'encroatinent the Act of 1819. He would insist that distress must .make as alter it, and that at no distant period, for k was. impossible 'the present state of things co u ld continue: Within a period of twenty years, namely } from the year 1792 to 1812, the price of corn h ie r. doubled; the Debt had increased to an enormoo ; amount, and• taxes liad been imposed. to an ext•m beyond conception. These effects, which had the;- origin with the baneful measure of 1797, were re. ferred to an antecedent period. In. the progress of events, they brought about a havock on the prop ert y of the landholders, such as never had been made by the most dreadful revolution. It was ,true that ti price of estates had doubled, but with that double price came all the incumbrances, dangers, and difli culties, which we now experience- 7 (Hear, hear).— The moment a change of the currency was effected, all these evils still remained in full force, while tLe landlord found his rental reduced one-half. Taking the several demands for agencies, incumbrance., dowers, &c. landed property did not now amount to more than one-half the nominal income. He dif fered entirely with his Hon. Friend the Member ft,r Coventry, who stated that the alteration of the cur rency was of advantage to the labouring chts:es, reducing the price of provisions, while the price ‘-' labour was kept up. The effect of the. Bill of 1519 was, on the contrary, to reduce the price of labour, while it left the poor man subject to the same amount of taxation as before. Never was there any measure so injurious, so cruel, with respect to all stases, as the combined operation of the Bills of 1797 :tad 1819, by which the public faith was brpken with the public debtor. Its effects were as sensibly felt in tie India Colonies as in this country; and if something was not 'speedily thine,. he should feel it his duty, at a future period, to bring this . subject in a detailed form before the House. Mr. RICARDO next addressed the House. No one could be more aware than he was of the dill:id ' ties produced by thealteration thectirrency ; but he could not agree with his Honourable Friend the *Member liir.ssex, that its effects on the agricultural • interest were such as he had represen:ed. Let ti:e. House look at the °petition of the measure as it re gattledshe tenantry of the country, and then draw thatiiifereoce which the facts of the case migh: war rant. • Suppose the amount of money raised by fixa tion he fifty millions, and that for the public expe::- diture and the demands incurred by restoring t.l. currency to its original standard a sum of ten mil lions-was deducted, there would remain forty mil lions. • SUppose one-fourth or that sum was paid by the tenantry, the portion that would devolve upon them would be ten millions; and taking the altera tion in the value of the currency at twenty-five per cent. the whole extent of thelnereased burdens upon them would only be 2,500,000/. And was it possibly that such a difference as this could give"rise to suet disastrous effects as were stated to have been pr..- duced by the resumption of cash payments? Why, the thing was altogether impossible. But looking to the condition of the landlords, the House would find that they suffered under the same burdens as others. However, he might be asked if the tenantry were in jured by this state of things, must not the landlords profit by it, if they still received the same amount of rent as before ? He would answer, certainly not, for when the distress came, they made an allowance equal to the depreciation which had taken place ill the value of money. But again, he might be asked, if they gave up twenty-five per cent. and received seventy-five per cent. out of 1001. how were they in jured? But he would contend that they did not re ceive seventy-five per cent. Ever since the year 1819, the increase of burdens to the landed interest, in consequence of the alteration in the currency, was about ten per cent. and la n dl or d s were l a b our i ng under the greatest distress. At the same time he did not ascribe that distress to taxation, or to the al- . teration of the currency. No; he found another and more satisfactory cause for it, which was superabun dance, occasioned by favourable harvests, and large importations of corn fiqui Ireland. He felt, however, highly gratified to think thrit it.was quite impossib:e for such a state of things `to continue • very long. It was utterly impOssible thit tine produce of the land should only be sufficient to pay the taxes, and leave nothing for rent and other charges. Adverting to the former Report of the Agricultural Committee, he found it to contain some admirable principles. Were he to take half of that Report and examine it in detail, he should discover ;nit propositions which he could not, appreciate too highly • and, judging from such specimens; he should s ay that it was wore thy of being placed by the side of the Bullion Report, or any other, however excellent. In some instances, its exposition of the Corn Laws was most forcible and correct. * It stated that there were two great evils with respect to them: the first was, that when ccrn rose to the price of eighty shillings, the' ports were to be open for the receptionof foreign grain, a principle that afforded the English farmer no security what ever. The next great evil was, that in seasons of plenty, when,by the operation of the Corti Laws the' price here rose above•that in other countries, theiat-• mer must be ruined - by thiie or four good harvests. What, then, was to be 'ant, but, by the adoption of speedy measures, to make our habitual price ap 7 preach as nearly atikissible tcilliat'"Of the Continent., But white he bestoWed this . :just praise on one part of the Report, there was another part which bethought extremely objectionable:* he- cbuld by no means ac cede to the principles which it laid down on the sub • ject of countervailing ' duties: The proposition re specting theft did not maintain with him that all commodities sent to this country ought to be subject to all the imposts and drawbacks which were netts iesrcceouluftoryr w if o t u h l a d t . s w a 7 . for th e t c h a e e p , r ot the e c t i o a r n n hitielsketo'Vexy few contingencies. No, the Report - o g f rot ir er co in m ilt m ijdtmeaded a system of countery ailing duties equebi to the difference of growing corn here, compared I. this—We and wi g were in. i did not e others look by some o to for tip, sake of that ‘ valuable class Pond, k epuld not afford stfilektnt occupiers and titbit. of the sal—, If knew of piattisuf that-of repealing Jut ,Hon. t one strike at tSe gee of the eiil, that Gentlenkan's (Mr. Pears) l ßill,atid,by . community wtielalialtaiten down for Dal* issues; on fair *d taiuitehle terms, to the lost' to the country..lVe should then amount at which it was fixed by the Bill of 1797. re The want of the protection that had The Committee shoalThave stated in stheiraepart fore. if the country was forced into a what part of the distress of the country was awl-