Star. — London, England, 1817-05-09 00:00:00

~A , e d in its present state, though he did not go so lar to disapprove of the principle. N : r. M. SUTTON said, though he saw no r e a s o n to i cApoue the second reading of the Bill, yet if o n c ;: t .ting the n.sse of Members on the subject there s: cof: ish for further delay, he should not press it. exreNTs IN AID. 1.1;, nal r DAVIS presented a Petition from t.tin merchants, creditors of a bank opt dlere, coati lainiag of the operation of Extents i , by v.hich they had beer, prevented from re co , o .:ie. :heir debts. io.,e CHANCELLOR of the EICHEQUER. teat I hottgtl de measure respecting Extents in hf.l been delayed by an nolortonaut event, he t00i ..11 w be able in a few days to submit a Bill to on the subjvet• gr• SMITH said, from one cause or other, no n ce i.ad been dune to bring forward this most le ,i r ,t;:e measure from the Bth of February to the/10 of, :r . II some step were not speedily taken,such b!.; stow of the importance of the subject, from *ated commilnicttions which he had received 1,„ 0 , a d qtrattcrs, that if the measure were not soon he should move for leave to bring in the yiu himself. Mr. THOMSON said, under the colour of the law teir ecting Extents, as it now stood, the most scanda lous acts of injustice were perpetrated. In Newcastle so d its eighbourhood one hundred Extents, he had b e n i n formed, tad been issued in one day, in t':e it rehension that some legislative measure would be istroducel Mr. LOC KHA RT mentioned a case in Berkshire, in which, by tvio Extents in Aid, and an Extent in Nei, the whole of a bankrupt's estate to the amount of C 20,000 had been swept away, and not a farthing fuj been left to the other creditors. Such a system yrs destru:tive to trade, and induced the people to think that the law was intended for their oppression, ird not for their protection. dill. ES' APPOINTMENT. Mr. DENNET, in rising to bring under the notice ti the House the Half-pay which Ministers had thought fit to bestow on the late Commissary in Chief, it.t it hardly necessary to say that he was led to it o:tly by motives of a public nature, as he had not t':elixiour of any acquaintance with the gentleman ►:.ou name was connected with the motion. It ktmeti that Mr. Herries entered the public service in INS as a Clef It•ot the Treasury, and in that situa lA, awl as Secretary to the Chancellor of the Ex he continued till 1811. In July. 1811, he raa sppointed Curoptroller of Public Accounts, and October following he left that office for that of Cummissary in Chief. It was necessary to state myect;ng this last office, that from 1793 to 1809 it been conducted in a manner which was conside- ted to be prejudicial to the public service, and on complaint made by Sir John Moore and Sir Arthur Wellesley (now Duke of Wellington) it was wished io put the office on a new footing'. Colonel Gordon, ma Sir Wm. Gordon. was consulted, and he under took to remedel the office, which duty he•performed in a manner which was as creditable to himself as it was advantageous to,„the public. Though the Chan cellor of the Exchequer, on a former night, had at tempted to give to Mr. I - terries a share of the merit seiicli was due to Colour! G&don only, the exertions of this officer had been borne testimony to by the Commaudel . in Chief and the Commission of In quiry. From 1809 to 1811, Colonel Gordon per formed the business of the office, and iu the latter fear, wheel Mr. Berries was appointed, he found, the machine• in operation With such regularity, that it might be compared to those engines io which the purserf a giant is directed by an ir , tant's arm. tat merit of Mr. limits consisted fully in keeping it at work. What was the manner it) which these gentlemen had been remunerated ? Sir W. Gordon, who had established the system of Commissariat, had quitted the office of Commissary in Chief, and the Miry of £2,555 a year, fur that of Quarter of General, a most laborious o ffi ce, at a salary of £2OOO sow reduced to aelBoo a year. Mt. Herries, on the cater hand, had half.pay, 5e1355, superadded to an office of £l5OO a year—the Auditraship of the Civil List. He did not, however, in fact, receive more ttan iet7oo a year. Thus for five years service in the Commissariat, and thirteen years service as a Clerk, this Gentleman had £!700 a year, £l3OO for Wine nothing, and the rest for doing little more than "tkii , g. Now it was contended that the office of Commissary in Chief was- a civil . appointment, and taerefore entitled to compensation. He did not wish to try the case on the precedents of extravagance, *tech had been inherited b; lineal descent from Trea eiry to Treasury; unlertunately there were too many maances of a lavish expendituie of the public money. But he wish e d i t t o b e caatidered as 'the individual merits of the officer—but lie could prove that the of u:c %vas not a civil, 'bet a military office. On the cotnnesion of military inquiry, as appeared by the v 'uctice, this officer being asked whether lis office '""t civil or military ? replied, that it was military.— rhe commission was issued from the War Office, the d ?Pointment was gazetted among the Staff. The Commissary was etijo:ned 'to obey orders from the ding and Commander in Chief ; and lastly, he was subject to the Mutiny Act—(!liar, hear.) if it was a military office, it would entitle the holder to half PltI! But what was the hall-pay of Commissaries- General M Chief—as Mr. Bergman, and Sir R.. Ken nedy. These gentlemen, who had served in foreign pare and the most unhealthy climates, who had shared the fatigues and dangers of the army, for the substs ten of which they provided by their activity, had sir hundred pounds a year ; while this Gentleman, rho had been seated snugly at home, on the very threshold of favour and promotion, had £1350.- 1 0 the Minute of the Treasury fixing the remunera- I 'm to Mr. Herries, on relinquishing the office of C ononissary-in.Chief, at £1350, it was said, that if Ile accepted an y other office, he should only receive 10 much of that allowance as would make the whole amount to £2700. -This was spoken of as if the at) . - Pmntment to another office were contemplated as a distant, contingency ; but on the very same day, th is r ientleman was appointed Auditor of the Civil List, 7 . ," which he received £1,600 a-year. In that o ffi ce "c . e . was little to be done, and persons with all se :mines as to character and talents would be found ,e,ady to perform it at £5OO a-year— (Hoer, hear).— ne hoped to hear sonic opinion froln the Committee of Finance on this office. As INs had shewn that the ',Volumene of Commissarpin•Chiet was military, it was know', that by the regulations of the service, when an Officer on halt-pay received any Office, civil or militaty; his half-pay fall in. 'The indulgence t this Gentleman night be contrasted with the rigour exercised towards those in lower situations. He ed in his hand a letter from the Secretary at War to the Colonel of a Regiment, requiring the-names of those Lieutenants who held other eve or military- appoint menu, by which their hali*-pay was forteited.- 1 (ilea►r , Aear) , ---When'-thests circumstances we're, talen into consideration, it should also he considered at what time this transaction had taken ;place.... It was at a time when there was an universal cry of distress throughout the land—at a Aim. when, the rich were compelled to give their superteities, and. others their necessaries of life, to the rcEet of their poorer brethren. At such a time, the grant of 02,700 1 a year to a person, whose services had out been eery or very impo r t ant , seeme d an inselt on the pull long lie. He did not say some reward should not.be he. stowed upon this Gentleman; hot he contrasted th'e general misery and want with this prodigal waste. The House would perceive that the Ministers did not consider how they might save, but how they might squander, the money wrung from penury on their fa vourites and adherents. He concluded by moving a. Resolution—u That the allowance to the late Com. missary•General in Chief, of one half of his salary, nn his retirement, was an excessive remuneration, regard being had to the length of his services; and that the, grant of a permanent office of £1,500 a year, in ad dition to the SAW, was an improvident expenditure 01 the public money, lied formed a precedent injurious to the public interests." The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that he should endeavour to prove that justice had been barely done to Mr. Herries, if, indeed, he had received justice. The situations held by that Gen tleman had not been fairly stated. He was appointed Clerk in the Treasury in 1798. Soon after, when he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was appointed one of the Secretaries to the Treasury, Mr. Herries was his Private Secretary, and continued in that situ ation till 1804. He was afterwards, for several years, Private Secretary to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and First Lord of the Treasury. Both these offices were at the same time confidential and laborious, and generally led to considerable emoluments or promo tion. Had these been his only services, he should not have thought Mr. Herries overpaid at present— (Hear, hear). Mr. Herries, however, when Private Secretary to Mr. Perceval, was appointed Comp troller of Army Accounts ; an office for life of 41600 a year. This office he abandoned on accepting the place of Commissary in Chief, which Colonel Gor don, who had performed the duty certainly most honourably and respeciaoli, had relioquished, in order to resume that military career which he had quitted with eeret when the superintendence of the Commissariat had been proposed to him by Mr. Per ceval. He did not intend to depreciate the merits of Colonel Gordon, under whom, as the Honourable Mover had stated, a new system had been organized. Mr. Herries held the office of Commissary in Chief till 1816, when that office was re-united to the Treasury, by which step forty-two offices, with salaries amounting to 411,000 a year, had been abolished, besides a saving in incidental expenses.— To Mr. Herries's advaucement he had not himself the fortune to contribute. • This Gentleman, as father of the volunteer system, had some claim to the kind ness of the country. He had also relinquished in 1811 an office of ie1,500 a-year for life on his accep tance of the Commissaryship, and this last office he had held during the most arduous period in the his -1 tory.of the country. His important services in that office he should shortly have occasion to enter upon more fully. By 4 minute of the Treasury, in the time of Mr. Pereeval, this office was excluded from the halt-pay regulations as not a military office, for ;t was thought unfair that if a Gentleman retired from it Mier serving in it a short time, lie should re ceive ha e if tor lite. The office, therefore, came ender the Act of the .50th of the King, which regu lated the remuneration to holders of places in their retirement. By that Act persons who had been in the service ten years were entitled tohalf the salary of their office ; those who. Lad been twenty to two thirds. Mr. Merrier: had been eighteen years in the' service, or within two years of the time which would have entitled him to two-thirds. The allowance of one-halt was therefore surely not extravagant. The office of Auditor of the Civil List, to which Mr. Hetries was appointed, was the result 'of Parham* tary enactment. The experience of the new system had remedied the frequent occurrence of an exerts in the expenditure, as since the appointment, though so recent, no deficiency was observed. The situation was to be filled by some person, and the Treasury could no: make a better selection than the talents and experience of Mr. Herries afforded. No other man could have entered on that important duty with such advantages towards an efficient execution-e(Heor)— The House, in estimating the retOing . allowance ef' such a public servant,_ should bear us mind the period of great public exertion or which his services were em ployed. In the year 1814, no less a stun than £18,173,000 passed through his department; is 1815, fifteen millions and upwards. In any compa rison with the claims of his predecessor, regard should, in his judgment, be paid to the, increased extent of service. ,In the year 1812, when the war assumed a new character, it became necessary to provide, not only the military, but the pecuniary means of unli. mated exertions. The means of furnishing the credit would have proved of little value, unless accompa partied with the power of making it bear on the seat of action. Those who recollect the debates of the House at that period, will testify to the exertions-of Mr. Herries, by which twenty millions were realised in metallic currency on the Continent—they will feel that when year Miter year the drain of bullionincreased, and the rate of Exchange became more unfavourable, ti.e late Commissary General had made efforts unpa ralleled. Never was the diversified service of the country interrupted by any pecuniary want, in the variuusshiltings of military operations; both to oar! Allies and to our own forces, naval and military, illol nos; abendant supplies were furnished. • . Mr. TIERNEY observed, that He would Alain from any reference to the merits of *Mr. Herries, ad mitting all that bad been said in his favour, and be lieving him. a •meritorioas servant, the only question was, was he not on his retirement from in'office created duriog the war, remunerated in a way dis proportioned tohis services ? and that whilst he had lien allowed to withdraw with an egregious sum, ether most deserving officers have been left with a half-pay, scarcely removed from penury and want ? (Hear, hear.) That Gentleman, first a Clerk in the Treasury, next a, private Secretary,- was' permitted, an instance never before exemplified'in public remu neration, to retire with no less a sum. than Jr.,:700 Fie had, at the head of the Commissariat, succeeded his friend Colopel Gordon, the Gentleman who first part all the rnactinery of that departmlnt into motion, and by so doing had considerably Licilirated the la= hours of his sumer* Mr. Herriea. But, said the 'Chancellor of thet• Exchequer, consider the great in crease of millions that Mr. Herries had to manage. If then research are to be reeidated by a per ventage , 'on the millions laid out, where is the principle to stop ? If it be right in one case, why should it not Iv i extended to other offices under similar circumstances? Would not the same reason apply to the department of his Right Honourable Friend '(Mr. Long) op; posite, the Paymaster General ? In every view of it, he could not but consider it, if not a nob, at le.s.t a most extrayagsut waste of the public money.— Compare this ailowahce with that given to the other Offices of the Sive, and the House must be struck with the prodigality. Take, for instance, the pro posed pension ais,ut to he fixed for the Prime Minis ter of the Country, the man on whom was placed the responsibility of every thing. He was to retire with 42,500, while a Clerk in the Treasury, afterwards raised to an office which he ably executed for five years, was to r.a!re with no less a sum than 5e2.700. For of the Audoorship of the Civil 'List, he must con tinue to say, that it was wholly unnecessary, or that £.500 was ample payment for the labour to be exe cuted. He feared that•the recent habit of discuising nothing but millions had made the House altogether regardless of hundreds. But in the distress, and em. harrassment that surrounded the landed interest' of the Country, it was no reflection on the great mass of the Gentry to say, that such a sum as 4'2,700 per annum would be a great object with almost every Gentleman. and its disposal in the provision of Mr. Herries must, under these circumstances, be most re volting and reprehensible. The blame would rest no where but with that House, if it refused its inter ference, and he sincerely hoped the count t y would, at the proper opportunity, remind them of their conduct. Lord CASTLEREAGH presumed, that if the Right Honourable Gentleman and his friends w. 1.! not, like the starling, * much in the habit of repeat ing the word "job," the experience of the last even ing but one would have given them a dislike to the expression—(4 laugh, and Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord entered at large i.ao a review of the merits of Mr. Herries, in the exercise of his duties as Commis sary-General. That office was specially kept by Mr. Perceval out of the operation of the halt pay, on the ground, that while all the subordinate ranks had the prospect of promotion, that oilicer had nothing to ex pect but his retiring allowance. Nothing, he con tended, had been done in Mr. Herries's case that was not always done in the case of every person who re tired (tons office. He should certainly feel it his duty to resist the motion. • Mr. PONSONBY maintained that the office of Mr. Herries was a military one, notwithstanding what had been said by the Noble Lord ; but suppose he were to *now that it was merely a civil office, he would then ask where was the pile which entitled civil officers, who retired, to receive more than their half-pay ? He might ask, indeed, what were the in stances In which they were gratteed the full half' of their s Clary ? If Mr. limits chose to take the Office of Auditor of the Civil List, ,why were the public to suffer ? He sari no reason why he should not sur render his half-pay. upon having acceptedlhat func tion ; unless, indeed', there was sotne peioliar Merit in his case, which entitled him .to -have ptinciple . violated for his sake, which had never been violated , for any other person. He doubted, however, whether. the transaction proceeded upon any ground of merit; he rather believed the whole thing was to be traced to the influence of favour; and he thought the House was bound to pronounce upon it, that it was an proper use of the public money. • Mr. C. GRANT said, that the Treasury, in fixing the'cempensatlon due to Mr. Herries, were not bound to refer to the enactments of the Superannuation Act, because that A ct related to o ffi ces from which per sons retired i n consequence of ill health, length of service, or advance of years. whereas the office of Mr. Herries was oboliihed. The only question, therefore, was, whether the Treasury had or bad not exercied a sound discretion in the mode and amount Of compensation ? He thought they had, and he therefore did not consider that they had incurred the censure of the House. Mr. BENNET, in reply, noticed the services of Sir Robert Kennedy,.iie the character of Commissary io Chief on the Peninsula, which he contended were much mare laborious and important. than those of Mr. Herrin.. Colonel Gordon did not voluntarily resign his situation; he was desired to give it up, although he did nos wish tsp.du so ; and he wok a rank in the army which he now had, and that was all the remuneration he received. The House then divided—For the Motion 42-- Against it 93. • TITHILI: Mr. NEWMAN moved; that the House resolve itself into a Committee on the Tithes Leasing Bill. Lord EBRINGTON said, that great expectations had been excited in the country by this measure, ot some beneficial arrangements. He WAS aware of strong objections to any parliamentary interference, which someconsidered as a sacrilegious attack. on church property. He wished, however,, to preserve the clergy's rights, without unnecessary burdens on the country. He feared no proposition would be successful without the support ot the. other side of the House t• but he hopectit might meet with a favourable reception. Sir WILLIAM SCOTT moved, that instructions be given to the Committee, to extend the provisions of the Bill to lands substituted for tithes, or annexed ' to small Hying: by means of Queen Anne's Bounty, The motion WO agreed to ; andafter some con versation between Lord MILTON, tineI)..GILBLKT, Colonel &Ito - az, Mr. PONSONBT, and Mr. Baotionast, and sueral other Gentletnettr the following inutile., 6010[0 the Comniittee were -also voted 4. 4 ' That it have 'power. to eoninue the currentiea,es to the end '4 the year; in cases. of a voidance of benefices, and for rightly dividing the emoluments between the in cumbents, as well as to secure the payment of tith.3, and investigate aid make allowances for the destruc- Lion of crops by bad seasons ; that it have power also to extend the proviFons of the Bill co glebe lands * under certain c.mditions." On the tie question that the 'House resolve itself into a Committee being put, . Mr. SMYTHE stated, that the Bill appeared lo violate this principle of the law of England, cleat do tenant for life' could, f .r any interest of his own, bind his successor. He expatiated on Ore is:justice of binding a man by a . deed to which he had not been kparty. He belie” 4 that in pinie cases the securi , ties provided by the BM might he effective, but feared 'that in many others they maths pr eve of n a avail. Sir W. SCOTT expressed similar opn'ons. Load PALMERSTON wished to Board against the supposition that he agreed with the prieCiple of the Bill, because he should not opp ise the Committee. He complained of tithe, being represented as a pie vourtax. when they were as much the property of the clergy as any other kind of property in the hands of laymen. Mr. H. 'MARTIN was satisfied with •the winner in which the question was treated: be concurred in the principle of the Bill. nat mote because at was agre e able to the I in dhof der . t h an b ecause i t wo e . : I promote the interests of tri, Cl7rgy, whose.right to i the enjtiyinent et tithes w is as sacred as that of any landholder to the lands that yielded theM. From hi s 3 4 1f mk* he was aquatinted with the interests of the Church, and thesentinteots of tile 'Clergy ; and w.is sure that the measure before the H mar woold promote the one and inetq the other. H' the benetit I to the Landlinider and the Church were not reisipro .eal, he would vote against the Bill. Mr. LOC.K HART bisilpo r t ed the Bill. Mr. BROUGHAM explained what was memnt by the calling of the tithes a tax, as alluded to by a Noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) ; and diSclaimed, on the part of those who used this name, any idea deroga tory to the rights of the church: He would take ano ther opportunity of entering into the provisions of the *Bill.. In the mean time, the principle of it he'd his support. He denied that any attempt was made to alarm the Clergy. Mr. NF.WMANCsaid, that in framing this Bill he had con sulted the interests of the Clergy as much as tVose of any othzr class. the I idose having then resolveA Itself into a Committer, the blacks in the 1:.11, .;'ter smur discussioe, were filled up with the wor Is ten vea:sis the terra for which leases might brumes!. I tie Comnuree. ihea seNtted prop ess, Anil asked have to sit again on Wedoeschy neat. • the oth...s Orders ut the Illy were then disposed of, and the Houk adjourned at Eleven o's:luzis. STEAM BU-4TS. The Public having been Lichen() hitt vey imper fectly informed of the re.tl eireumstaincei of tide late dreadful explosion of the N •rwich Stem ?Acker, tl.e following particuViri, copied from the Phibi o ph; ea l favzinc and "'anal, ought to he made generally known " The boiler was a cylindrical vessel, about eight feet long and four feet two inches in diameter, of wrought iron, excepting one end, which was made of cast iron. The latter gave way, and was propel led towards the stem of the vessel, While the body of the boiler was thrown in a horizontal direction out of the stern, sweeping all before tt ; at the same time that the concussion of the air and steam completely unroofed the vcsael tro:n one end to 'the " When the explosion- took place Mete were `.22 people im hoard, of whom wily tour remained 'taut t. Nine were kiiled.,• and the lemainder. Mare'or less wounded ;solid of latter three•iire•rinie dealithe engine-map, named Diggitisi. being mie:Of them. " As.might beez,)ectvd, evintitaa'spread a very general alarm, and proved injoiiiius to tAetu• *inessof vess'elsr ern plore d in 'rearm Ifaieig lion ; . from an idea that aecidests of this kindcaniint be gitairded agaimf, but;must .be•eapucted Wit matter of cunt- . 'aloft ocmarrenceg -from the natint +-of • the moving power . employed respecially.if the steam engine 'be what is nommenl7, sailed w high proteins eagine, that is au engine' worked• with steam of forty pounds pies. sure per square inch, mr upwasslL That people is. norant of the : properties and- Management of iteam -should reason -thus is not wonderful, but that men who call themselves engineers-should assist in pe(;pa ,. . gating such errors, is su r prising. " Every accident of this kind may be traced either to faulty construction, or criminal misman a gement. II a boiler Oiin be made to work Welt under a .kifiS• sire of four pounds per inch, it is self-evident that one made teat, fifteen. or twenty times the strength, may be worked' with equal safety undir a'pvessuie of forty, of,:zty, or of eighty pinottli•the inch.' Mat competent engineer would 'avow that lie could 'riot make a boiler sufficiently strong-to resift a pressure of 20a, or even 300 pounds per inch ? I.' at it 'the safety valve of the boiler .be locked slowa, whaler constructed to resist tom pounds or 44.10 pounds, what can 'be expected but an'explosion ? * • " Fruits all that wirliave been abletOleirn (*spec. ting the explosion at Norwich,-we: hive no` doubt whatever that it was owing to faulty' constiticiian, criminal hardihood of the engine -man, and mismansgument. The built Oat made of two anus of materials, of different expansive - power's atheif its fluenced 'by changes 'or teniperifirfe; .1 1his'Volgt-t never to take place. The 'east•iron - Vic! was 'afititWe, with a double cirtular rim - at - a inglit aligle s tO le, like the lid of a snuff bog ; was trliplied over ;bit find of the wrought iron e) • die double rim and the interposed kylindec of - wrought iiclnliiere -passed no toes ous boh r oils the inside, and iteie were secured by suteW-nuts on the . outside--that is, in.'sucit a -manner 'that the' very operation of setewilig • fr9nie the outland a tendency to fracture the cast-iron end at the turn of its rim to a right angl 'The 'space between the rim and die cygnder wan joio' usual cement. The plate 'itself was Only, as •we ate informed, about three guakrt of an lath in ihit'ine:t ! An d it was usual to raise..tlie steam to n. .pressure- of rerocnty IL'unde the inch beScote starting for the voy;ge. tit toe time the eapiostortook place, the attendant ',engineer was sit tiV acrosktlie boiler, working • borne a screw into some paft of tllernachincry, c.ost i quently io.t attending to the height cf.lris steam,a;-0. possibly, from his pottion, pro,:v . e;iog the vps,silsilify of,sbe salt ty valve r s iting 'to a4tostit l :dae: esospet-of any ,*steam, whatev er tbe q:ai Fs:Ai/414.k t: while ap she same time the, end ef hki i -fr,Plll. l l4e Lent to hazard sucli a pressure at seventy pounds per inch ; it Oilly a few ~....2,tetb of hear were then added, the c::p,lnAiv? f,. c, would very soon be sioub.ed ! haleed, we kiie every reason to - bet .ew,